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What Is Your Go-To Coarse Stone For Heavy Lifting?
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I have a question about course stones and my Marine Mark 2 Utility knife (KaBar). My years of trying to sharpen it on much finer stones has never worked. The blade in not overly hard about HrC 58 but the blade is real thick. KaBar recoments a 40º inclusive. Is my GS500 course enough to reset the edge or should I start with something courser like a #320?
That’s depends on how much work do you need to do. As the rule of thumb (there are few caveats, but they should not apply to utility knife) start as coarse as you have available when doing major work. The less time you spend on any given stone its a win for you.
Unless that #320 is an extremely aggressive type (brazed diamond?) I would say it is still much too fine if "real thick" is like I am imagining. Something between #60 and #120 is where I would aim. BYXCO Manticore, 100 grit 3M Cubitron II paper, Zandstra FOSS coarse-side, etc. I don't think a KaBar by itself warrants diamond or cBN.
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tim huang
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Kongo-do No.80 at the moment https://www.namikawa-ltd.com/product/42
but i want to try NSK or FSK as well
but i want to try NSK or FSK as well
JNS 220 & 400 lately
The Kongo-do No. 120 medium-hard from them has become my first step for major thinning. Basically a nice block of silicon carbide, not oil-soaked. It glazed with three strokes of the knife when new, but a heavy sidewalk session cured that.
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It really depends on the goals/application and budget. I like the JNS for their feedback, the size of the stone, the cutting, and the slurry management. They are good for sharpening and setting the geometry if starting a polishing progression.
But there are some negatives: one must avoid applying strong pressure on the 220 and use the entire surface of the stone as much as possible since it dishes rather fast. The NSK is much more expensive and more polishing-oriented. It's much harder and cuts faster, but the feedback is terrible, and you will need something to flatten it at some point. This is difficult with their dedicated flattener, which is not efficient enough (given the high price tag). Instead, it's better to get a hard silicon carbide dressing stone as a dressing/flattening stone.
But there are some negatives: one must avoid applying strong pressure on the 220 and use the entire surface of the stone as much as possible since it dishes rather fast. The NSK is much more expensive and more polishing-oriented. It's much harder and cuts faster, but the feedback is terrible, and you will need something to flatten it at some point. This is difficult with their dedicated flattener, which is not efficient enough (given the high price tag). Instead, it's better to get a hard silicon carbide dressing stone as a dressing/flattening stone.
Valid points, but the issue is not with the stone rather it’s with a person who is attempting to use the stone with limited knowledge, practice, and concept of application.
Take a look at my videos here as some of those points are addressed there, and I will continue to make videos to address these issues.
I’m also working on a video to help people understand the proper use and application for the nagura.
After that I’ll explain all of the relating concepts for the different flattening stones.
The main concept is that NSK stones have been developed to ensure that polishers and sharpeners have the opportunity for a variety of uses and applications from NSK stones which are 100% dependent upon ourselves.
Depending on the stone you use and how you prepare them and how you use them will greatly change the ability of application and end result as well.
Keep in mind the flattening plates are not just for flattening, but they also help with the surface preparation and that’s why they come in different grits and have different compositions and hardness or softness.
The Sic stone, nagura, and different flattening plates change how the surface of the stone feels and behaves.
Also, how the surface of the Sic stone, nagura, and flattening plates are prepared will change the effect of the stone when applied.
Take a look at my videos here as some of those points are addressed there, and I will continue to make videos to address these issues.
I’m also working on a video to help people understand the proper use and application for the nagura.
After that I’ll explain all of the relating concepts for the different flattening stones.
The main concept is that NSK stones have been developed to ensure that polishers and sharpeners have the opportunity for a variety of uses and applications from NSK stones which are 100% dependent upon ourselves.
Depending on the stone you use and how you prepare them and how you use them will greatly change the ability of application and end result as well.
Keep in mind the flattening plates are not just for flattening, but they also help with the surface preparation and that’s why they come in different grits and have different compositions and hardness or softness.
The Sic stone, nagura, and different flattening plates change how the surface of the stone feels and behaves.
Also, how the surface of the Sic stone, nagura, and flattening plates are prepared will change the effect of the stone when applied.
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I'm not sure I understand the goal of this first remark or whom it is addressed to... Is it a way to discredit those whose knowledge/experience is deemed insufficient to speak on the matter? What is certain is that I'm just a sharing user feedback.
Your remarks are probably technically relevant, but they also highlight that these NSKs—which I readily acknowledge as high quality—are complex tools that require significant preparation to optimize their performance and that the complexity of this process is not really specified on the brand’s website.
In any case, in the context of polishing, they are excellent tools if one has the funds, knowledge and the motivation to explore the various possible combinations (between stones, SIC, flatteners, naguras etc.).
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The NSK line is so varied that I have to ask which one you're referring to.
I've found the Hakuto (1) 800 grit to be a wonderful sharpening stone, comparable to the Naniwas but you get more thickness for your money -- the thin is considerably thicker than the Naniwa, though I'm not wearing out either any time soon. Very good feedback, within diamond resin-bonded stone standards.
The NSK 300 sold by JKI feels roughly like the 300 grit equivalent of that Hakuto. Good feedback, easy to manage, obvious merit here for heavy lifting.
The Oboro 200, well, I'm still trying to understand it. It's super-hard, and not forthcoming. I assume it's aimed at polishers, and does not seem to be a heavy lifting stone; more of a stone designed to mitigate the usual problem of diamond stones making rogue deep scratches that are hard to get out. I own it, so I WILL find a use for it. I'm thinking that it's restraint might make it a good primary sharpening stone for stainless, despite the nominal 200 grit, insanely coarse for sharpening activities, because it is so very unforthcoming. Mr. Hamono's comments could make perfect sense in the context of this unusual stone, and indeed the videos he linked seem to be aimed that way.
That’s a very valid point as well, I think you can either have a “one fits all system” that gets the job done but leaves a lot left to be desired, but is affordable, or you have a sophisticated system that has it all, but requires a large amount of knowledge and funds to go with it.
The knowledge becomes the part that will hold a lot of people back in picking the correct stones and their application. If a buyer doesn’t have that knowledge it can make it incredibly difficult and frustrating for the average buyer to choose and use the correct stone, especially considering how expensive they are.
For NSK they primarily focus on experienced sharpeners/polishers and recommend their Oboro Knife stones while having other series to fill in the missing needs/desires of each individual, generally speaking.
I think that’s where a lot of the frustration and negative experiences come from. I might even compare it to buying natural stones in some ways in this instance.
In this situation it’s incredibly important to have a thorough and experienced seller to properly guide each buyer, but unfortunately we seem to have vendors that just want to make money and sell and buyers who just want the latest greatest thing and don’t ask the proper questions.
That’s the point of the video series I’m producing, to help people be better informed so that they can make better choices for their particular applications for these expensive stones.
Right now I only sell Oboro 200,400, and 800 as that’s what makes the most sense to me for the majority of sharpeners/polishers. Our base stones need to stay as flat as possible for a long as possible while doing their job as fast as possible, otherwise it’s simple not worth the price tag IMO.
The knowledge becomes the part that will hold a lot of people back in picking the correct stones and their application. If a buyer doesn’t have that knowledge it can make it incredibly difficult and frustrating for the average buyer to choose and use the correct stone, especially considering how expensive they are.
For NSK they primarily focus on experienced sharpeners/polishers and recommend their Oboro Knife stones while having other series to fill in the missing needs/desires of each individual, generally speaking.
I think that’s where a lot of the frustration and negative experiences come from. I might even compare it to buying natural stones in some ways in this instance.
In this situation it’s incredibly important to have a thorough and experienced seller to properly guide each buyer, but unfortunately we seem to have vendors that just want to make money and sell and buyers who just want the latest greatest thing and don’t ask the proper questions.
That’s the point of the video series I’m producing, to help people be better informed so that they can make better choices for their particular applications for these expensive stones.
Right now I only sell Oboro 200,400, and 800 as that’s what makes the most sense to me for the majority of sharpeners/polishers. Our base stones need to stay as flat as possible for a long as possible while doing their job as fast as possible, otherwise it’s simple not worth the price tag IMO.
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The “harder” stones need to have their surface prepared proper per application and appropriate pressure applied while using them, otherwise the user can experience undesirable results (ie surface loading and becoming glassy, etc)
Generally speaking, softer stones tend to work better on harder metals, while harder stones generally work better with softer metals.
From the sound of it you’re a fan of “softer” stones as you may be sharpening more than polishing. The Hakuto 1 #200 may be a better choice for you, or you may consider a Hakuto #400s which will be lightning fast and very effortless in its use as long as you use the entirety of the stone properly to prevent uneven wear.
However, if you feel that your Oboro #200 is not fast enough and not providing proper feedback, you may consider my advanced stone surface preparation technique.
Also, see my other videos so that you can see how fast these stones can be when prepared properly.
Generally speaking, softer stones tend to work better on harder metals, while harder stones generally work better with softer metals.
From the sound of it you’re a fan of “softer” stones as you may be sharpening more than polishing. The Hakuto 1 #200 may be a better choice for you, or you may consider a Hakuto #400s which will be lightning fast and very effortless in its use as long as you use the entirety of the stone properly to prevent uneven wear.
However, if you feel that your Oboro #200 is not fast enough and not providing proper feedback, you may consider my advanced stone surface preparation technique.
Also, see my other videos so that you can see how fast these stones can be when prepared properly.
aporigine
The slow blade penetrates the winter squash
Is the JKI stone you mention their very expensive 300A?
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Thank you, I will do that.
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Yes. It does come with an entire round flattening stone with handle; with the NSKs, I only got a small fragment, which is much harder to use. I think that flattening stone commands a pretty high price on its own.
Sure. In my comment, I was referring to the Oboro knife series. I find it is slightly harder than the Hakuto 1, especially the 200, which is supposedly dedicated to the "heavy lifting" (blade repairs, geometry setting etc. in my world).
I share your sentiment regarding the mentioned stones, especially the oboro 200. And as you might have noticed yourself, it is not easy to understand/use...the Hakuto stones on the other hand, being a bit softer, are more pleasant to use, just like the Oboro knife 400/800 (which are my favorites). In the context of polishing, I find that these two stones are easier to use: they cut fast, which allows for quick/precise results, the tactile feedback is more enjoyable and their hardness reduces the need for regular flattening.
In order to optimize the 200s cutting/feedback performance proper preparation is indeed essential. Unfortunately, using the dedicated flattening stone alone is not sufficient, so I've contacted the brand's distributor in Europe, more experienced sharpeners and even some knife makers to find solutions. The result was the addition of a hard SIC stone, which has multiple benefits: when combined with the flattener, it enhances its efficiency, making it easier and quicker to flatten the stone. Additionally, it optimizes the surface, improving the stone's abrasive power and tactile feedback. In this case however, the stone should be rinsed before you start working on your edge or bevel (avoiding grit contamination, rogue deep scratches etc.).
I also agree that the strengths of this oboro series (including the 200) make it more suited for polishing, but highly regarded sharperners/polishers like Ivan Fonseca use them in both contexts:
> Rough bevel setting (starts at 12"):
> Edge sharpening (a mix with chocera, but starting with the oboro 200) :
.
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My go-to coarse stone for san-mai knives used to be a debado 180 which is really good compared to many other coarse stones. Cuts well and the dishing is manageable. However, the combination of dishing and making a hazy finish causes low spots to disappear so you have to switch with harder stones. Also, heavier work still takes a lot of time, but I thought this is just how it is.
Recently got a 400 grit diamond stone from Marcus from kyotonaturalstones.com for a honyaki project and I can’t say enough good things about it. It cuts fast, very little dishing and can be flattened quickly with sic powder, almost no glazing, consistent scratch pattern and good feedback so I can easily control what I’m doing. It suitable both for preparing knives for polishing and for rough sharpening that will produce a hair-shaving edge. Of course, there’s better stones for each specific task and obviously it won’t work as nicely on all steels/knives so people with very specific needs will want to get the NSK stones. Depending on the knife I might still choose the debado or another stone, but it works extremely well for many tasks so I think it might be a good option for many other people as well.
Recently got a 400 grit diamond stone from Marcus from kyotonaturalstones.com for a honyaki project and I can’t say enough good things about it. It cuts fast, very little dishing and can be flattened quickly with sic powder, almost no glazing, consistent scratch pattern and good feedback so I can easily control what I’m doing. It suitable both for preparing knives for polishing and for rough sharpening that will produce a hair-shaving edge. Of course, there’s better stones for each specific task and obviously it won’t work as nicely on all steels/knives so people with very specific needs will want to get the NSK stones. Depending on the knife I might still choose the debado or another stone, but it works extremely well for many tasks so I think it might be a good option for many other people as well.
Got the same suntiger stones in 80 and 120 grit and yeah, they glaze like crazy so I’ll need to try a heavy sidewalk session.
