Burr removal

[enchappo]

I have tried both ways and don't seem to notice any difference. Never noticed the strop to ever make my knives shaper, sometimes just duller if I'm not careful. I also know there is a science to it all and not one way will work for everyone but I'm interested in the science of it. If I understand the science I can build upon that. Like typically most people have better luck removing a burr edge leading but all the close ups show trailing can give a better edge. Both don't work for me except raising my angle to remove the burr then back sharpen to take out the micro bevel. Hearing others experiences helps learning also, maybe there's a different way I didn't think of trying. Or knowing the science I can come up with my own unique way

I’m going to respond here bc I’ve just come out of some work meetings that pissed me off and have me fixated on the value of plain speaking. So if I seem like I’m dismissive I’m really not trying to be, but rather just influenced by my own context so keep that in mind.

You will struggle to find a forum more interested in parsing the value of different sharpening and stropping techniques than this one. And @mengwong is probably one of the members most into analysing and responding from the perspective you’re chasing (imo only, and I hope that’s not offensive to either @mengwong or anyone else!)

But honestly you’re trying to get a ‘scientific’ answer to a question that isn’t actually scientific. There are so many different variables and implicit and explicit assumptions in asking “should I strop heel to toe or toe to heel” that there isn’t a simple ‘scientific’ answer that can guide you.

There are some awesome scientific resources, and the ones that @mengwong has linked are great and have had a big influence on my approach. But they’re very specific to a set of parameters, and they’re only one person’s evaluation. I still put a lot of stock in them, and it’s scientifically oriented, but that’s not “science”. Add in your own circumstances and approach and it quickly becomes even less applicable.

So when someone says just do some sharpening yourself and try it out it’s not to avoid the question, but actually to make it relevant to your context

 

[M1k3]

As for stropping direction, use whichever way gives consistent results for you.

 

[Delat]

Never noticed the strop to ever make my knives shaper, sometimes just duller if I'm not careful.

See the video below where the strop definitely made the edge sharper. IMHO strops are so fine that I doubt direction matters.

For deburring I just do a few light same-angle edge-leading passes. If I’m feeling particularly fussy I’ll follow that up with a couple edge-trailing, then a couple more edge-leading. But usually I’m not that fussy and just call it a day after a few edge-leading plus strop. My knives are almost all easily-deburred low-alloy high carbon though. My lone SG2 stainless gets a little more care.

Slicing rolled paper is sharp enough for me, but my edges probably won’t win any HHT contests. My edges do last a good long while (where the steel supports it) so I’m pretty confident I’m getting all the burrs off.

 

[Rangen]

Success at using a particular sharpening/stropping technique depends on your personal characteristics, your hand grip, how you make the motions, how high up everything is relative to your body, and where in the range of possible motions you are good at subtlety and control. To get my sharpening to a place where I was happy with it, I had to experiment with all of these things until I found a fit. Not some objective "best way," but a fit for me, which will work better only when I am the one doing the sharpening.

 

[hibbs00]

I’m going to respond here bc I’ve just come out of some work meetings that pissed me off and have me fixated on the value of plain speaking. So if I seem like I’m dismissive I’m really not trying to be, but rather just influenced by my own context so keep that in mind.

You will struggle to find a forum more interested in parsing the value of different sharpening and stropping techniques than this one. And @mengwong is probably one of the members most into analysing and responding from the perspective you’re chasing (imo only, and I hope that’s not offensive to either @mengwong or anyone else!)

But honestly you’re trying to get a ‘scientific’ answer to a question that isn’t actually scientific. There are so many different variables and implicit and explicit assumptions in asking “should I strop heel to toe or toe to heel” that there isn’t a simple ‘scientific’ answer that can guide you.

There are some awesome scientific resources, and the ones that @mengwong has linked are great and have had a big influence on my approach. But they’re very specific to a set of parameters, and they’re only one person’s evaluation. I still put a lot of stock in them, and it’s scientifically oriented, but that’s not “science”. Add in your own circumstances and approach and it quickly becomes even less applicable.

So when someone says just do some sharpening yourself and try it out it’s not to avoid the question, but actually to make it relevant to your context

I understand he's just helping. I just learn a bit differently and the links he shared are pretty much what I was looking for

See the video below where the strop definitely made the edge sharper. IMHO strops are so fine that I doubt direction matters.

For deburring I just do a few light same-angle edge-leading passes. If I’m feeling particularly fussy I’ll follow that up with a couple edge-trailing, then a couple more edge-leading. But usually I’m not that fussy and just call it a day after a few edge-leading plus strop. My knives are almost all easily-deburred low-alloy high carbon though. My lone SG2 stainless gets a little more care.

Slicing rolled paper is sharp enough for me, but my edges probably won’t win any HHT contests. My edges do last a good long while (where the steel supports it) so I’m pretty confident I’m getting all the burrs off.

I don't really struggle with deburring anymore. Looking back, I don't think I really did. I think I was just blaming my lack of sharpness and skills on a burr. I'm always trying to get an edge to 90/90/90 degree push cut paper. A strop has never really made much difference for me like I know it should except when I'm not being careful and probably roll the edge or over strop. I also have a Bob Kramer strop that doesn't have compound. When I hear others experiences or findings like @mengwong shared I learn better. I question everything and ask why this happened or why that happened why are the results different and end up finding my own method to the madness

 

[hibbs00]

I'll be recording my sharpening soon to post but I want to ask about the video I shared at the beginning of this thread. What are everyone's thoughts? I'm trying to get my knife to 90/90/90 degree push cut paper. I've only done it once using this method. Here is another video of him comparing deburring methods and push cutting paper. Would this be done on the finishing stone? Or on a coarser stone and then alternating leading passes on finer stones to polish the edge?

 

[Knife2meatu]

[...] I'm trying to get my knife to 90/90/90 degree push cut paper. I've only done it once using this method. [...]

With a fine India stone? That's a good result, and would be more than sufficient for the vast majority of tasks.

It seems to me that a method able to reproduce such an edge consistently should be considered a perfectly viable technique.

Then again, as they say, many ways to skin a cat -- although all of the preferable methods involve a very sharp blade...

 

[hibbs00]

With a fine India stone? That's a good result, and would be more than sufficient for the vast majority of tasks.

It seems to me that a method able to reproduce such an edge consistently should be considered a perfectly viable technique.

Then again, as they say, many ways to skin a cat -- although all of the preferable methods involve a very sharp blade...

I have a shapton pro 1k and King 1k/6k
I would use the 6k to do this method? Would the 6k be enough to back sharpen the micro bevel?

 

[Nemo]

I don't really struggle with deburring anymore. Looking back, I don't think I really did. I think I was just blaming my lack of sharpness and skills on a burr. I'm always trying to get an edge to 90/90/90 degree push cut paper. A strop has never really made much difference for me like I know it should except when I'm not being careful and probably roll the edge or over strop. I also have a Bob Kramer strop that doesn't have compound. When I hear others experiences or findings like @mengwong shared I learn better. I question everything and ask why this happened or why that happened why are the results different and end up finding my own method to the madness

I would contend that burr minimisation and burr removal are skills that have more levels than just can do/ can't do. Certainly most improvements in my own sharpening skills have been due to improvements in burr minimisation and removal.

A well deburred edge (where even the finest burr remnants are removed) off of a medium or even a coarse stone is so much sharper than a highly polished but only partially deburred edge.

 

[hibbs00]

I would contend that burr minimisation and burr removal are skills that have more levels than just can do/ can't do. Certainly most improvements in my own sharpening skills have been due to improvements in burr minimisation and removal.

A well deburred edge (where even the finest burr remnants are removed) off of a medium or even a coarse stone is so much sharper than a highly polished but only partially deburred edge.

I get a sharp edge with this method just not as sharp as I want. Are you suggesting do this method on a coarser stone and alternating leading passes on the finer stone? A polished edge helps cut raw meats a bit better I find. He just doesn't explain it all that well for me in the video. I thought I would ask before trying in case I completely mess up my edge on the coarse stone

 

[M1k3]

Here's 3 things that really helped bring my sharpness up a notch.

1. Edge leading deburring.

2. Once you feel the burr is gone the whole length of the blade, do about 5-10 more edge leading passes. Helps fix any damage from removing the burr, leaving a cleaner apex.

3. Use very light pressure and clean the stone off, on your last sharpening steps.

These 3 things really helped me take my edges to the next level.

 

[Knife2meatu]

I have a shapton pro 1k and King 1k/6k
I would use the 6k to do this method? Would the 6k be enough to back sharpen the micro bevel?

The idea behind this technique is obtaining a 90/90/90 edge off a relatively low-grit, hard-wearing stone, I feel. In accordance with this, using only the Shapton 1k makes most sense to me.

The 6k King easily yields a keener edge which happens to 90/90/90 more readily, but can be slippery and lack cutting aggression. And avoiding cutting into the stone with high-angle edge leading deburring strokes takes more care.

Meanwhile, achieving 90/90/90 following this method, using only the 1k king would be most challenging, I think.

To answer the other question: Yes the 6k can back bevel. However the actual issue is the risk of marring the apex over the course of the many passes it can need to achieve the requisite metal removal.

 

[hibbs00]

The idea behind this technique is obtaining a 90/90/90 edge off a relatively low-grit, hard-wearing stone, I feel. In accordance with this, using only the Shapton 1k makes most sense to me.

The 6k King easily yields a keener edge which happens to 90/90/90 more readily, but can be slippery and lack cutting aggression. And avoiding cutting into the stone with high-angle edge leading deburring strokes takes more care.

Meanwhile, achieving 90/90/90 following this method, using only the 1k king would be most challenging, I think.

To answer the other question: Yes the 6k can back bevel. However the actual issue is the risk of marring the apex over the course of the many passes it can need to achieve the requisite metal removal.

I suppose I will try on the 1k and after back sharpening do alternating leading passes on the 6k. If it messes up the edge I guess it's another opportunity to practice lol. I'm a little OCD so I'm always after having the sharpest possible edge

 

[hibbs00]

Here's 3 things that really helped bring my sharpness up a notch.

1. Edge leading deburring.

2. Once you feel the burr is gone the whole length of the blade, do about 5-10 more edge leading passes. Helps fix any damage from removing the burr, leaving a cleaner apex.

3. Use very light pressure and clean the stone off, on your last sharpening steps.

These 3 things really helped me take my edges to the next level.

Thank you for those. I will also give those a try. I appreciate the help!

 

[M1k3]

Thank you for those. I will also give those a try. I appreciate the help!

You're welcome.

 

[Nemo]

I get a sharp edge with this method just not as sharp as I want. Are you suggesting do this method on a coarser stone and alternating leading passes on the finer stone? A polished edge helps cut raw meats a bit better I find. He just doesn't explain it all that well for me in the video. I thought I would ask before trying in case I completely mess up my edge on the coarse stone

I'm not really suggesting you use any particular method but I will suggest that if your knife isn't sharp and deburred off a coarse stone, it won't get that way on a fine stone (except for some tenacious burr forming steels such as VG10, which probably do benefit from a deburring progression). Howerver, misusing a finer stone is an excellent way of rounding a well deburred coarse edge.

For me, burr minimisation and deburring is a process that starts as soon as I have achieved an apex on the the edge. It takes the significant majority of my sharpening time. FWIW, here is what I do:


1) The first step is to abrade the burr on the coarsest stone in your progression by gradually reducing the pressure that you sharpen with. I use 4 pressure levels a la Pete Nowlan (@Sailor) in his knifeplanet.net sharpening school (video #3 IIRC). I then use feather-light edge leading strokes to further abrade the burr. FWIW, I use 2 strokes per side for very simple steels, up to 5 per side for highly alloyed steels. YMMV.

2) I then move on to the next finest stone in my progression. You should only use light (level 1) pressure after the first stone. I then repeat the feather-light edge leading strokes.

3) If there is another stone in your progression (except for damaged knives or if I have been thinning, I rarely use more than 2 stones), repeat step 2 on your finer stone.

4) OPTIONAL. I then repeat the last 2 steps of sharpening. If I am doing a full progression, this will be light (level 1) pressure, followedby feather-light edge leading strokes on my finest 2 stones. If just touching up on a fine stone, I repeat the last 2 pressure levels instead. I learned this from @Dave Martell who created some of the sharpest edges I've ever held.

5) I then VERY GENTLY draw the edge through cork or felt. MUCH less force than I saw in the video you posted. I only use wood if I can't find a cork.

6) I then push the edge into a cutting board as though I were rock chopping. This way, if there is any residual burr, it will fold over and you won't think that your edge is better than it actually is.

7) I like to test the edge with diagonal cuts on kitchen paper. You should be unable to feel a burr and the edge will feel very dangerous. Obviously be very careful feeling for a burr the burr on a well deburred knife.

8) If you want to show off, you can strop. I use a firm medium (balsa or very dense felt) sprayed with diamond spray (I have used 0.25 to 3 micron diamond with only subtle differences between them). It's not necessary for kitchen use and the extra sharpness doesn't last long. Oh, and you could easily round the edge you have worked so hard to create.

Steps 1 and 4 were quantum leaps in my own deburring progress.

 

[Nemo]

I should add that in my hands, the alternative is the Kippington deburring method (which I linked at the start with of the thread). Much quicker and easier. It results in a micro-bevel, which is slightly less sharp (because it's less acute an angle) but which supports the edge better. It's still plenty sharp for kitchen use, though. And much sharperthan an incompletely deburred edge. The micro-bevel does make it ideal for softer (under 60 HRC) steels and highly alloyed steels. The other issue with a micro-bevel is that it's harder to touch up because you have to match the micro-bevel angle exactly.

 

[hibbs00]

I should add that in my hands, the alternative is the Kippington deburring method (which I linked at the start with of the thread). Much quicker and easier. It results in a micro-bevel, which is slightly less sharp (because it's less acute an angle) but which supports the edge better. It's still plenty sharp for kitchen use, though. And much sharperthan an incompletely deburred edge. The micro-bevel does make it ideal for softer (under 60 HRC) steels and highly alloyed steels. The other issue with a micro-bevel is that it's harder to touch up because you have to match the micro-bevel angle exactly.

I really like the kippington method a lot. Just doesn't seem to give me consistent results. Typically my method is a lot like stringers method and gives me really good results. I'm just after an edge that is like the sword of heros from Kung Fu Panda. Said to be so sharp you can cut yourself just by looking at it haha. Really though, I just want the sharpest edge possible. At least want to push cut on the 90/90/90 degree like in the video. Maybe that will just take practice. I like the method in the video because he can do that kind of push cut and also because it's similar to what I do already and like how he back sharpened to remove the micro bevel for an even shaper edge

 

[Deadboxhero]

https://scienceofsharp.com/2022/06/10/seven-misconceptions-about-knife-burrs/

 

[Delat]

I get a sharp edge with this method just not as sharp as I want. Are you suggesting do this method on a coarser stone and alternating leading passes on the finer stone? A polished edge helps cut raw meats a bit better I find. He just doesn't explain it all that well for me in the video. I thought I would ask before trying in case I completely mess up my edge on the coarse stone

Are you 100% confident that the edge is actually to the level of sharpness you want and burrs are really the problem with your cut tests?

Novice sharpeners tend to have unsteady hands and inconsistent angles when changing stones. Those will affect your underlying edge. Push-cutting freestanding newsprint is a great goal but it can take a while to get there and not solely due to burrs.

 

[hibbs00]

Are you 100% confident that the edge is actually to the level of sharpness you want and burrs are really the problem with your cut tests?

Novice sharpeners tend to have unsteady hands and inconsistent angles when changing stones. Those will affect your underlying edge. Push-cutting freestanding newsprint is a great goal but it can take a while to get there and not solely due to burrs.

I'm confident in holding a stable angle and I do get an extremely sharp edge. No problem cutting anything from onion paper, tomato skin, pepper skin, can do s cuts in paper. Just can't do the real 90 degree push cut. I only assume it has something to do with the burr. I only did the push cut once and that was after using the 45 degree passes method. I have no idea what else it can be

 

[hibbs00]

I just tried the method on a coarser stone then alternating leading passes on the finer stone to polish. So far that's given me a better edge. I usually try to push cut receipt paper, that didn't work but did push cut notebook paper. Haven't tried the method on the finer stone again to compare. What's weird though, it almost feels like there's a burr on both sides of the knife

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

If you think you can still feel a burr, there's something wrong in your technique. You're either not sufficiently de-burring/refining the burr or your creating new ones as you try to.

 

[hibbs00]

If you think you can still feel a burr, there's something wrong in your technique. You're either not sufficiently de-burring/refining the burr or your creating new ones as you try to.

Would I still be able to 90 degree push cut and cut paper towel and s cut paper with a burr? I always thought that's the way you can tell you don't have a burr. I don't know that for sure, that's just what I heard

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Would I still be able to 90 degree push cut and cut paper towel and s cut paper with a burr? I always thought that's the way you can tell you don't have a burr. I don't know that for sure, that's just what I heard

Entirely possible for sure. A thin refined burr will be very sharp an remain that way unless and until it collapses. But I also doubt you'd be feeling a burr that is that refined. I was reacting to your statement about thinking you might still be feeling it.

If you haven't already, I highly encourage you to check out the link @Deadboxhero posted above. Now, that edge used in those images/discussion is very soft steel but the base info is still good.

 

[hibbs00]

Entirely possible for sure. A thin refined burr will be very sharp an remain that way unless and until it collapses. But I also doubt you'd be feeling a burr that is that refined. I was reacting to your statement about thinking you might still be feeling it.

If you haven't already, I highly encourage you to check out the link @Deadboxhero posted above. Now, that edge used in those images/discussion is very soft steel but the base info is still good.

I'll definitely check it out. Thank you. I'm not the best at feeling a burr, sometimes i feel for it too steep and the edge is just catching my finger prints lol kind of like those that check for sharpness by running their thumb horizontal to the edge. Is there a way to tell for sure that you don't have a burr? Or a way to tell for sure that you do have a burr?

 

[Nemo]

I'll definitely check it out. Thank you. I'm not the best at feeling a burr, sometimes i feel for it too steep and the edge is just catching my finger prints lol kind of like those that check for sharpness by running their thumb horizontal to the edge. Is there a way to tell for sure that you don't have a burr? Or a way to tell for sure that you do have a burr?

Maybe read the article that @Deadboxhero posted?

 

[hibbs00]

Maybe read the article that @Deadboxhero posted?

I didn't come across anything saying how to tell for sure if it's fine or if it's there

 

[Nemo]

I didn't come across anything saying how to tell for sure if it's fine or if it's there

I got that you can't really tell for sure.

A small (undetectable) burr may still be reasonably sharp. But the edge will be sharper without it.

I tend to assume that the burr is there and make efforts to minimise the burr, even if I cannot feel it.

My edges got sharper when I started doing this. Possibly coincidence but it doesn’t really matter, I guess.

 

[hibbs00]

I got that you can't really tell for sure.

A small (undetectable) burr may still be reasonably sharp. But the edge will be sharper without it.

I tend to assume that the burr is there and make efforts to minimise the burr, even if I cannot feel it.

My edges got sharper when I started doing this. Possibly coincidence but it doesn’t really matter, I guess.

Ok so I'll probably do more alternating leading passes. I still need to try again on the finer stone to compare which works better