Breads Bavarian "Brezen" (Pretzels)

[Michi]

Do you know any decent bakery 'Rechts der Isar' ? I may not have enough time to go through town....or is Höflinger-Müller the same (I see loads of Höflinger-Müllers)

Höflinger-Müller these days, yes.

Check out Bäckerei Neulinger. They have several shops in Munich.

 

[Dominick Maone]

Do you know any decent bakery 'Rechts der Isar' ? I may not have enough time to go through town....or is Höflinger-Müller the same (I see loads of Höflinger-Müllers)

If you like energy drinks Kong Strong from Lidl is the best one I have ever had. It tastes better than Red Bull and is .50, of which .25 is pfand.

 

[MarcelNL]

I have an Espresso machine at home, that is my energy drink ;-)

 

[Rreidiii]

No, I haven't tried with that.

Sodium carbonate will give you a somewhat stronger alkaline solution than Sodium bicarbonate, but still much weaker than sodium hydroxide, so I would expect lacklustre results.

I did some searches on German baking forums, which anecdotally confirm this. There really is no good substitute for lye. If there were, bakers would have switched to it long ago, if only because sodium carbonate is a lot easier and safer to handle than sodium hydroxide.

Sodium carbonate can very easily be made from sodium bicarbonate…baking soda. Just Google it

 

[MarcelNL]

Munich by night, Pretzels on the loose

I did not get around to visit a bakery but the hotel was well stocked and by a good baker as well;

 

[Rreidiii]

How long can you keep the starter dough in the refrigerator? It says up to 48 hours, I can’t see why you can’t keep it for much longer refrigerate.

 

[Michi]

How long can you keep the starter dough in the refrigerator? It says up to 48 hours, I can’t see why you can’t keep it for much longer refrigerate.

I guess that, eventually, the dough will get too sour and overripe. But I suspect that nothing really bad would happen if you leave it in the fridge for another day or two.

 

[Rreidiii]

I made your pretzels and I used 3.5% lye and they didn’t get nearly as dark as yours.

 

[da_mich*]

@Michi maybe it´s interesting for you but it´s german speaking

 

[Michi]

@Michi maybe it´s interesting for you but it´s german speaking

Thanks for that! Seeing that I'm German, that's not exactly a problem

 

[Michi]

I made your pretzels and I used 3.5% lye and they didn’t get nearly as dark as yours.

Hmmm… It's difficult to know what happened without knowing all the details. One possibility is that your oven might be running to cool? I'd stick a thermometer in there, such as a ThermoPro TP-17, and double-check that the temperature is actually correct.

If that isn't the problem, just leave the Brezen in there for longer. I usually don't pull them out by the time the alarm I set goes off. Instead, I set the alarm for a few minutes less than the nominal time and then watch them for the last few minutes. That way, I can pull them out when the colour is right.

 

[Michi]

Check out Bäckerei Neulinger. They have several shops in Munich.

Nice video of that bakery making Brezen, with English subtitles.

 

[Edge]

I can't stop. Someone please come and help me!
View attachment 86043

Those look so good. I wish I had some today.

 

[Michi]

Not knowing what Michi is capable of I can vouch for the fact that what bread Lidl and or Aldi bake-off does not come close to what I'd call great.

When I was in Munich in December 2022, I made it a point to eat various things that I make myself in Australia because I can't otherwise get them. (Strictly for research purposes, of course.) I ate Thüringer Bratwurst, Rügenwalder Teewurst, Weißwurst, Leberkäse, rote Bratwurst, Milzwurst, Schwarzgeräuchertes, Semmeln, and (of course) lots of Brezen.

I bought Brezen from run-of-the-mill supermarkets (Lidl and Rewe), which sell them very cheaply (around 0.25 € each). I also bought them from old established bakeries, such as Höflinger-Müller, Neulinger, and at Viktualienmarkt (at around 1.25 € each). And I ate them at traditional Bavarian restaurants (Weißes Bräuhaus, Görreshof, Hackerhaus).

I don't want to brag, but the Brezen I make are better than any of the ones I ate in Munich. For a moment, I thought I was delusional. But when I told that story to my aunt, who is a highly accomplished Bavarian cook, her immediate reaction was "I believe that in an instant."

Things have changed. The Brezen I used to eat in Munich 40 years ago are not the same ones that are being sold today.

True, all of the supermarket Brezen are baked on the premises on the same day. But that's really a cheat. They are made on an industrial scale by machines, are par-baked, flash frozen, and then finished in the supermarket in a convection oven.

Similarly, even old-fashioned bakeries will typically not use a pre-ferment and just make the dough in one go, to be baked within a few hours of making it. That, and all the additives to ensure a consistent dough, even though the flour quality may vary, conspire to create a product that is still good, but not like the Brezen I used to get from the local baker when I was a teenager. (Back then, from the same baker, you sometimes got outstanding Brezen and sometimes merely good ones, depending on the flour, weather, and whether the baker had a hangover when he made them.)

If you want truly good Brezen, I encourage you to try the recipe I posted. These are likely to be the best Brezen you can get (almost) anywhere.

 

[Jovidah]

Yeah the supermarket ones are mostly acceptable because they're dirtcheap. They're still okay... but nowhere near as good as the 'good ones' I remember from vacations - but at this point that's also many years ago.
One of the issues with the cheap ones that they could fix fairly easily is that they tend to be similar thickness all the way through; as a result there's almost no difference in texture.
So most of the time we just get laugenstange instead.
Or... what I've discovererd recently... get laugenbrötchen and use those to make hamburgers.

The one thing I REALLY miss though is mohnschnecken (for some reason I knew them as schweineohren). Have been aching for those for ages but I haven't seen them since forever. Those were IMO the best pastry I ever had in Germany. Can find the raisin version - which is still nice - but the poppy seed version was just pure awesome.

 

[miggus]

But when I told that story to my aunt, who is a highly accomplished Bavarian cook, her immediate reaction was "I believe that in an instant."

Hehe yeah, my first thought was exactly the same. Most of the stuff is mass-produced and uninspired, so a home cook can do much better indeed.

 

[Michi]

Yeah the supermarket ones are mostly acceptable because they're dirtcheap. They're still okay... but nowhere near as good as the 'good ones' I remember from vacations - but at this point that's also many years ago.

I did compare the supermarket Brezen against the ones from established bakeries. The ones from the bakeries are definitely better. But they also cost 4.5 times as much, and were definitely not 4.5 times as good…

The one thing I REALLY miss though is mohnschnecken (for some reason I knew them as schweineohren). Have been aching for those for ages but I haven't seen them since forever. Those were IMO the best pastry I ever had in Germany. Can find the raisin version - which is still nice - but the poppy seed version was just pure awesome.

Mohnschnecken are really easy to make yourself

 

[Rangen]

If I made a list of things most likely to tempt me from my usual low-carb diet, a Munich-beating recipe for the kind of pretzels I ate there might be at the very top. Really appreciate the recipe, except for the temptation part. I would have made it already, but I'd have to order the caustic chemical and special salt in advance, and that requirement has served as a reasonable substitute for will power. So far. I know I will make it someday.

 

[ian]

@Michi

What do you think, can I shape the brezen and then immediately refrigerate them for several hours (covered) before doing the last part of the recipe? My planned timeline has suddenly been disrupted by life responsibilities.

Edit: we’re gonna have to try this. Fingers crossed that they won’t be too ridiculously overproofed.

 

[Michi]

@Michi

What do you think, can I shape the brezen and then immediately refrigerate them for several hours (covered) before doing the last part of the recipe? My planned timeline has suddenly been disrupted by life responsibilities.

Edit: we’re gonna have to try this. Fingers crossed that they won’t be too ridiculously overproofed.

I’ve done this only once, when I put the shaped Brezen Into the fridge overnight. That didn’t work so well; they were seriously over-proofed by the morning.

It should be OK for a few hours, but I don’t know where the limit is.

 

[ian]

I’ve done this only once, when I put the shaped Brezen Into the fridge overnight. That didn’t work so well; they were seriously over-proofed by the morning.

It should be OK for a few hours, but I don’t know where the limit is.

Idk, they look ok but I’m not sure really what to look for. Very different dough than I’m used to… drier than bagels. Fyi, they looked like that at the beginning too. I think I didn’t make them as spindly as yours are.

Well, we’ll see.

 

[mockit]

Just read through this thread and the sourdough thread. As soon as I am done with grad. school... I am going to be nerding out on dough! Those pretzels are drool-worthy! Thank you Michi!!

 

[ian]

Well, shoulda made em more spindly, but they look good I guess

 

[Michi]

Not bad! How long did you have them in the fridge for? When I had mine in the fridge overnight, they were so over-proofed that they had started to collapse in on themselves. They were still OK to eat, just didn't look as nice.

Did you spray these with water immediately after pulling them out of the oven? Doing this gives them a nice shine and makes the crust even crispier and splintery.

Next time, you want to make your strands a fair bit longer. Shoot for around 60 cm. Also, the last 15 cm at either end should be quite thin. That way, you can shape them such that they are more open. The centre "window" should have almost as much area as the ones on the left and right. Finally, when you place the ends (called "Brazerln" in Bavaria), they should stick out over the belly a little. After baking, you get a nice crispy knob that way.

 

[ian]

Not bad! How long did you have them in the fridge for? When I had mine in the fridge overnight, they were so over-proofed that they had started to collapse in on themselves. They were still OK to eat, just didn't look as nice.

Did you spray these with water immediately after pulling them out of the oven? Doing this gives them a nice shine and makes the crust even crispier and splintery.

Next time, you want to make your strands a fair bit longer. Shoot for around 60 cm. Also, the last 15 cm at either end should be quite thin. That way, you can shape them such that they are more open. The centre "window" should have almost as much area as the ones on the left and right. Finally, when you place the ends (called "Brazerln" in Bavaria), they should stick out over the belly a little. After baking, you get a nice crispy knob that way.

Nice, that’s super useful. You’re right, I forgot the spraying step! Next time. Thanks for the shaping tips. I was having a hard time stretching the dough out that far, even with multiple sessions of “stretch all twelve of them a little bit”, rest, “stretch all twelve more”, rest, …

I put them in the fridge in the morning, maybe at 10:30? Then pulled them at 5pm to bake. Actually, I was concerned that they weren’t proofing at all in there, so I even pulled them out and put them on the counter from 1:30-2:30 or so. They didn’t seem like they were collapsing at all.

Have you played with the hydration at all? The dough was a bit stiffer than I would have liked when handling, and my mixer had a hard time with it. I ended up pausing a few times during mixing, including an additional 15 min bench rest in the middle of the second session in the mixer, and also spraying down the mixing bowl a couple of times after the dough just separated into a couple pieces that kept spinning around. But I don’t really know what I’m going for here. There were also big holes in the crumb where I think the layers of dough didn’t bind together well. But maybe I’m misreading that. Not really sure what to look for. Guess it’s also possible that the AP flour I was using is different from yours. Idk. Or maybe it’s supposed to be that stiff and I just need practice.

 

[parbaked]

I will eat this…

 

[Michi]

I was having a hard time stretching the dough out that far, even with multiple sessions of “stretch all twelve of them a little bit”, rest, “stretch all twelve more”, rest, …

When portioning, I roll the dough balls into ovals straight away and, after some rest, it's not too difficult to roll them into 60 cm long snakes. I start from the middle and work outwards with both palms. It won't happen in a single go, so there are normally three or four rounds of rolling from the middle. (The videos linked earlier in this thread show this in a number of places, from memory.)

I put them in the fridge in the morning, maybe at 10:30? Then pulled them at 5pm to bake. Actually, I was concerned that they weren’t proofing at all in there, so I even pulled them out and put them on the counter from 1:30-2:30 or so. They didn’t seem like they were collapsing at all.

They don't look over-proofed to me. Maybe a tad, but not seriously so.

Have you played with the hydration at all? The dough was a bit stiffer than I would have liked when handling, and my mixer had a hard time with it. I ended up pausing a few times during mixing, including an additional 15 min bench rest in the middle of the second session in the mixer, and also spraying down the mixing bowl a couple of times after the dough just separated into a couple pieces that kept spinning around. But I don’t really know what I’m going for here.

With only 50% hydration, the dough is really quite firm. I've never changed the hydration in the past. After proofing, the dough has always been supple enough to not give me problems. You do need a really strong stand mixer though. (I use a Kenwood Chef with a 1,700 W motor.) If your mixer isn't quite up to it, I would continue kneading the dough by hand for another five minutes or so. After the initial mixing, let it rest for 15-20 minutes and then knead it again. You should have a firm and silky-smooth dough before dividing it.

There were also big holes in the crumb where I think the layers of dough didn’t bind together well. But maybe I’m misreading that. Not really sure what to look for. Guess it’s also possible that the AP flour I was using is different from yours. Idk. Or maybe it’s supposed to be that stiff and I just need practice.

Difficult to say what happened there. It looks like those cavities may have been there to begin with, rather than having formed during baking? One thing to watch out for when rolling the dough is to not end up with air bubbles in there. If you feel any bubbles, keep rolling to work them out of the dough.

The flour I use is Caputo Typo 00 Classica (light blue package), which has 12% protein.

Ideally, you don't want to let the Brezen proof again after taking them out of the fridge. That's because, while cold, they hold their shape much better and are a lot easier to get into and out of the lye solution in that state.

For a first attempt, I think yours turned out well. Mine weren't exactly masterpieces either when I first started out I'd make sure that the dough is as well kneaded as possible, double-check your measurements, and try again. You'll get a little better at it with each batch!

 

[Michi]

Actually, make the snakes 70 cm instead of 60 cm.

 

[Michi]

I put them in the fridge in the morning, maybe at 10:30? Then pulled them at 5pm to bake.

After all this, how did they taste? Visual appeal aside, they look good to me and should taste like proper Brezen.

 

[Michi]

One more thing… Coarse salt is not the same as Brezen salt. Brezen salt has large grains, but they are not large solid crystals as you would get with rock salt. Instead, Brezen salt is made by some process that causes lots of air inclusions in the individual grains. The texture is more like sintered glass or a (crunchy) sponge, with hundreds of minuscule air bubbles in each grain. The net effect is that, when you bite onto one of those grains, it instantly shatters into hundreds of tiny pieces. That creates a particular taste sensation that crushed rock salt won't replicate. (And Brezen salt is a lot easier on your teeth than large grains of rock salt would be.)

I did some searches to try and figure out how this salt is made. Details are sketchy. But it looks like it is made by fast evaporation of a concentrated salt solution. Presumably, the steam that forms during this process prevents the salt from forming regular solid crystals, so it ends up opaque and porous.

You can find Brezen salt on Amazon, eBay, and probably in many European supermarkets. It's worth making the effort to find some.