Philippine Natural

[rayvelasco7]

Hi everyone, belated happy New Year's...I've been itching to post on the forum for a while but didn't make any headway up until recently. Due to next-to-no information on the interwebs and also because of the availability of more economical combi-stones, naturals (at least in the 'Pinas) have gone the way of the dinosaur. Everyone who has a clue waxes nostalgia and conveniently have no idea on where to find them.


After searching high and low, I managed to track down a sample of said beastie and needless to say I am a happy camper. A bit of a disclaimer, I am by no means an advanced sharpener (I'd put myself at a 4/10) nor geologist... but I do appreciate naturals for what they are. I am looking forward to those more informed than I am to chime in with what they know since I'm looking to learn all I can.

 

[rayvelasco7]

What I do know:


There are 3 varieties : red, green, and black. (this much I picked from a cockfighting forum)

With regards to cutting characteristics etc. the black ones known as 'Atay Biya' i'm guessing are 4000sh grit upwards. I've seen 2 examples at the meat section of the wet market here in LB. I've asked where these guys bought theirs and have been met with very cryptic answers (jealously guarded secret perhaps). But what surprised them more was that I was probably the first person to ever ask about the stones.

The green example like the one above are known locally (at least in my province) as 'Taing Kalabaw' which translates roughly to Carabao Poo. Cuts finer than my 1000 grit Naniwa Ebi. My initial experience with the stone I'll elaborate on in a little bit.

The last type of stone is a red one AKA 'Bato Bareto' which translates roughly into 'Stone like a Laundry Soap bar' (sounds awkward but the best approximation I can make. I've never seen one and can only guess how it looks etc.

 

[rayvelasco7]

An interesting note: the town I live in is at the foot of a dormant volcano (Mount Makiling) and I'm guessing is the source of it all. Another quick pic to give an idea of the stone's size and initial edge it put on my Tramontina slicer.

 

[rayvelasco7]

2 more pics

Hoping to get a nice discussion going, thanks for viewing

 

[chinacats]

Greetings!

If it works, doesn't take to long, and leaves a desirable edge then you have scored a nice stone. And it's huge!

 

[Asteger]

Haha, great size and cool-looking stone. Looks blue to me, a true aoto. Great colour.

I glanced too fast at first and was racking my brain on where in Japan that could possibly be from Now I know: a very fine-looking example of a Makilingnoyama

 

[rayvelasco7]

Nice one on getting to the point Chinacats, the stone cuts quick. I was quite surprised that it didn't need a thorough soak. After the initial excitement died down I took several quick swipes with the rough side of a generic combi-stone I have to get a slurry going. eased up on the pressure and it put a decent polish (more to lack finesse on my technique I guess) to the edge.

Asteger, thanks for taking a stab on identifying the stone. You gave me a direction in which to read and study further. I do have a question though, does the same color morph occur in Japanese naturals?

It came to me in fairly rough shape with gouge marks on both sides. Wobbling while going through the motions isn't something I am cool with. Took it to the sidewalk for a good 40 mins or so...neighbors must have though I'd lost my marbles.

 

[Asteger]

... a question though, does the same color morph occur in Japanese naturals?

Interesting question. Those reddish-brownish lines are generally thought to show more iron content of some sort, though I'm hardly a geologist and wish I knew more. (Too tough to read in Japanese and I'm not about to return to uni to unearth the secrets.) However, I haven't seen that kind of blue/green (is the stone wet?) next to the brown-red. The closest I know of is acually a new stone I was quite happy to get myself, a Kaisei, which combined the blue-ish & red/brownishness that I think they're known for. See here. Generally though, my take on things is that the Kyoto finishers everyone pays so much for are often the most boring ones - variations of brown. There's a variety of little known other stones here and there, often mediums from diff parts of the country that have different looks, while people obviously pay more for Kyoto finishers with a catchier, less simple-brown appearance like kiita/kan/asagi/karasu/aka/iro/etc.

It came to me in fairly rough shape with gouge marks on both sides. Wobbling while going through the motions isn't something I am cool with. Took it to the sidewalk for a good 40 mins or so...neighbors must have though I'd lost my marbles.

Hilarious. Yeah, I was too shy to do the same and settle instead on wearing down my poor Atoma. Bravo to you.

 

[Asteger]

Oh, but here's a really crazy kan one. Different colours, but huge morph:

 

[chinacats]

Asteger, are either of those lines toxic (vertical and diagonal in the picture)? Crazy looking stone btw.

 

[rayvelasco7]

An awfully long thread but very interesting, thanks for pointing it out. Your Kaisei is quite a looker as well. It's going to take a good while for me to digest everything on JNats. Prices are a bit of an eye-opener to say the least.

I am quite envious on how there is an entire universe of information on JNats, Belgians, and Arkies and how well everything is documented (source mines and all that). Rather peeved I can't contribute anything more insightful other than what I've found on my own. My end goal is to put together a smattering of whatever PNats I can find.

What is rather ironic is the dying blade culture in the Philippines, nowhere near the refinement the Japanese have taken theirs to, but indigenous nonetheless. The province of Batangas (about an hour's drive from my place) is the heartland of balisong (buttterfly knife) and there used to be rows upon rows of small shops selling everything from scissors, kitchen knives ( been meaning to get a cleaver there), and even full blown sword replicas both traditional, foreign and replicas (if one were so inclined).




*Not my pic, borrowed it of a famous Smith's FB page

Alot of cutlery, the irony lies in the absolute absence of naturals and nothing but commercially available synthetics. Quite sad.

 

[rayvelasco7]

Oh, but here's a really crazy kan one. Different colours, but huge morph:

Awesome, that has got to be the David Gilmore of JNats:newhere:

 

[Asteger]

Asteger, are either of those lines toxic (vertical and diagonal in the picture)? Crazy looking stone btw.

Hi CC - sorry, just an example and didn't intend to mislead: not my stone. It's from the JNS wiki, a 'rainbow kan' Maxim probably called it, and a Hakka I think. As far as I know a retired ex-member/collector had it and then probably passed it on after, but could be wrong. ... As for the lines, not the sort of thing I'd fuss about. Looks to me the diagonal is a normal gouge and the vertical is just aesthetic, not toxic. I wouldn't worry too much about hard or 'living' lines coming up like that on a layered finisher, aside from suita, although it can happen. If you had this at any rate, hard lines can be dug out even if they exist (there's the 'famous' Shigefusa Ohira suita as an example) while if the stone is generally uneven/inconsistent it's a lot more annoying I think. Maybe sort of like how you might not mind 1 or 2 potholes when compared to an uneven, bumpy road.

... a smattering of whatever PNats ... What is rather ironic is the dying blade culture in the Philippines, nowhere near the refinement the Japanese have taken theirs to, but indigenous nonetheless. The province of Batangas (about an hour's drive from my place) is the heartland of balisong (buttterfly knife) and there used to be rows upon rows of small shops selling everything from scissors, kitchen knives ( been meaning to get a cleaver there), and even full blown sword replicas both traditional, foreign and replicas (if one were so inclined). ... Alot of cutlery, the irony lies in the absolute absence of naturals and nothing but commercially available synthetics. Quite sad.

Very interesting again. Well, with stones the Philippines has to have a similar geology to Japan, with all that volcanism and tectonic plate action on the Pacific Rim, and so probably plenty is undiscovered or, like you wonder, forgotten. Also, wouldn't be any surprise if going back in time that an abundance of good natural sharpening stones could give rise to a sophisticated blade culture. Good stuff to look into, I'd say. Go Philippines.

 

[riba]

Oh, but here's a really crazy kan one. Different colours, but huge morph:

Substance (ab)use, I'd say. Magnificent stone

 

[rayvelasco7]

Got me a side of pork belly waiting to debone, an opportune time to touch up the edge of my HB-85 and take the stone for a quick test drive




My outdoor "sharpening station," banished from the house for the mess I make sink-side. It is nice and hefty, negating the need for a stand or what-have-you. It's a bit slow generating mud necessitating my generic combi-stone to get going, skipping this step has the stone behaving like a 1000 grit synthetic.

Technique owed heavily to Jon Broida's excellent instructional videos on the google, just more practice on my end.

Not the greatest pic, pointers are most welcome. Not too sure if that's a burr or the camera can't quite capture the image. Will strop on my dress belt before taking it to the pork belly

Thanks for viewing

 

[Sabaki]

Looks good! you can use a smaller and harder flat stone to work up the slurry, cirkular motions mostly at the top ends where the stone wears slower.

You can use a wet towel or other rag under the stone to collect slurry and prevent the stone from sliding if that's a problem

 

[Keith Sinclair]

It is true seems like the Japanese have taken sharpening & stones to a high level. I think the Philippines have quite a few capable knife sharpeners. I learned some of my early technique from Philippino co workers. Learned how to cook some good dishes too.

**** Fighting Spurs get sharpened here also.

 

[rayvelasco7]

Funny you mentioned c*ck fighting spurs keithsaltydog, there is an arena dedicated to just that about 10 mins walking distance from my house. The names for the Pnats I gleaned off of a forum just for "sabong."

The thing is, people into sharpening their spurs look mostly to pocket sharpeners from Spyderco and the like, PNats going mostly the way of the dodo. The only positive lead I've received is talking a walk along streams coming from Mt. Makiling (there are several and not exactly easy hikes) and keep an eye out for black/red stones (and this is the tricky part) stay cool even when baking under the sun. The old folks call these stones "buhay" which translates to "living." These are the high-grit stones that that have natural color morphs like the example Asteger posted but nowhere near as psychedelic.

Been planning on setting aside one day to lace up the hiking boots and bringing a serious amount of bug spray. Hesitant to post until I've come up with something to share. I just wish I could walk into a store and buy a stone, however the reality is a little more complicated. On a lighter note, the stone I've featured has pretty much relegated my Naniwas and other generics to the drawer. When it comes to setting a new bevel (which takes a while but very possible) to polishing and touch up an edge, I couldn't be happier.

Have several classmates who've settled on the islands and say nothing but the greatest things about Hawai.

 

[rayvelasco7]

Finally, the bruised feet, mosquito bites and messing with an orbital sander has finally paid off. Just extremely happy to share with everyone one of the stones that I've been obsessing about since I acquired the aoto 'Makilingnoyama.'




I've tracked down an example of an 'Atay Biya' that old folks wax lyrical about.

 

[rayvelasco7]

Needless to say it was a bit of a nail-biter hewing the stone to an acceptable shape. In the end the stone made a fine, powdery mess and I had to buy a new sanding disc to smooth over the trouble I caused for my neighbor. Included are side-by-side shots of the 'Atay Biya' alongside the 'Taing Kalabaw.' Had me a sizable specimen that will likely wear out my knives before it gives up the ghost.

 

[rayvelasco7]

In a somewhat serendipitous turn of events, my sister had recently entrusted a Henckels that has been in her possession since 1995 for a sharpening session.

Had reset the bevel and put on a new edge using the 'Taing Kalabaw,' I deliberately put off the final sharpening until the new stone was ready. 2 things I notice, the stone is very thirsty and generates ALOT of very unsightly black mud. Tactile feedback is awesome, leaving my synthetic honing stone in the dust. Another great feature is that I don't have to use a separate stone to get the slurry going.

Pain the the a-hole cleaning up the mess I made but totally worth it.

 

[rayvelasco7]

Close ups of the new edge on the Henckels

 

[rayvelasco7]

The edge is by no means totally finished, I kinda ruched through it just to see and take pics of what the stone can do. Will take more (better) pics once the initial excitement wears out.

My wife's chopper is coming up on a quick refresh and will do a couple laps on the new stone (probably over the weekend). Thanks everyone for viewing.:doublethumbsup:

I'm no authority on either naturals or a master sharpener, would just like to share and gain meaningful insights from forum vets. Also having almost no information or even pictures of these wonderful stones on the intergoogles, I feel I just have to do what I can to spread the word. Lastly, these stones are bloody hard to find, even for a resident, and by no means are the only examples of Philippine naturals.

There are 3 places off the top of my head where others can/could be found. The provinces of Pangasinan and Bicol, both ridiculously far from where I live. The last place is Cebu in the south, which is going to entail a quick plane trip. Aside from the stones, Cebu also happens to be home to the greatest 'Lechon Baboy' (whole roasted pig), good enough for Tony Bourdain to exclaim it as the best pig he's eaten ever.

Anyways, I'm getting ahead of myself. I'd just like to hopefully acquire all examples of Philippine Naturals and properly document and share these with those who can appreciate this sort of thing.

 

[rayvelasco7]

hi guys. my free trial at imageshack ran out, are there other free options for image sharing?

 

[rayvelasco7]

the wife's chopper for lapping. I know next to nothing about this knife except that it was bought in Singapore. It's taken quite a bit of thinning and grinding out a new edge to get it where it performs satisfactorily.

My go-to for breaking down chicken and filleting fish.

P1130553 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr




With the swarfy bits and mud off the Atay Biya

[/url]P1130561 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[rayvelasco7]

the edge, again struggling with a camera. scratches not too much of a bother so long as she cuts good
P1130555 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr[/IMG]



P1130554 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr

 

[rayvelasco7]

My idea of unwinding...kids at school and my rest day

P1130563 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr





The view from the front of my house, with Mt. Makiling in the background

P1130559 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr


Not too obvious from the picture but the road up to the house isn't paved. It would be completely overrun by pest grasses which are kept in check by a 13" Famastil machete (but that is another story)

 

[rayvelasco7]

The mud from the Atay Biya

P1130566 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr


P1130562 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr


Drying out
P1130570 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr




Poor Man's Hugo Stiglitz-style strop. Making do with what I have. Cardboard box and metal polish a little too messy for my liking.
P1130569 by rayvelasco7, on Flickr


Thanks for viewing. Currently tracking down a Brownish morph of the Atay Biya, which my barber recounted having used back in the 70's.