Nakiri vs Santoku trying to find the right knife

[Hanmak17]

So this may be an odd question, but I'll throw it out there anyways.

I am interested in the idea of a Nakiri, particularly a very thin one, not too flat, for veggie prep and the like. I have several Gyuto's which I use almost religiously, but there are times when having a taller (not quite a chinese cleaver), thinner blade for greens and the like would be helpful. I am assuming this is a discussion that has been had before, but I couldn't find anything in my search this am. Curious to get thoughts from those who have had or used both?

1) any recommendations on Nakiri profiles and associated knifes (stainless clad) western handle?

However, one of the drawbacks to a Nakiri is the lack of a tip, which I suspect might bother me over time. Enter the Santoku

2) any recommendations on a Santoku that has a taller blade (Nakiri like profile) but with a tip for those occasions when a tip might be handy? Again thinking stainless clad?

 

[Paraffin]

I'm fairly new to the nakiri, and a low-volume home cook, so take this with a grain of salt. I've used a santoku for years, added a 210 gyuto when getting back into Japanese knives, and then two different nakiris recently -- a carbon steel 165mm (Yoshikazu Ikeda) and stainless 180mm (Kurosaki R2).

The "tip or no tip" thing was something I pondered for a while before trying a nakiri. What it actually came down to in practice, was mainly about onion prep. If you use the classic method for chopping onions -- slicing partway through towards the stem horizontally, then partway through vertically, then a final chop on the side -- a nakiri is moving a lot more metal through that partial vertical slice compared to the tip of a gyuto or santoku. It's not that difficult, but a noticeable difference in gliding through the onion with a gyuto vs. more of a "thunk" with the nakiri.

So I've modified my technique, with a full vertical slice all the way through, then stacking the slices for the final chop. Or else for very fine mince, the "Marco Pierre White" method of quartering an onion, separating and pressing pieces of onion flat on the board for fine slices and then a fine mince at the end, holding the slices together.

There are a few other areas where a pointed tip is nice, like slicing ribs out of bell pepper sections, but I still manage okay by holding the pepper slice flat enough on the board to use the nakiri. For everything else involving veggie prep with push or pull cuts, or vertical (non-walking) chopping, a nakiri is brilliant. The huge blade area is great for transferring product to bowls (blade held at very low angle to avoid scraping), and this is one of the big things I miss when working with a gyuto.

What it really comes down to, is that you'll have to try a nakiri to know whether it's a good fit for how you prep food. I'm still in that learning process, but I'm leaning strongly towards using just the nakiri for all veggie prep, and a 165mm petty as a soft protein slicer. My gyuto isn't getting much use, and the santokus have been transferred to my wife, who loves that shape.

 

[nickndfl]

Zwilling Pro has an 8" extra wide chef's knife that is 2.25" tall vs. their normal 1.75" at the heel. It's a good compromise for part of what you looking for, but the German blade is probably a little thicker than its Japanese counterpart. You could also try a deba chef which is more universal than a nakiri or santoku. It gives you a flat and a tip with rocking.

It's all about compromise and specific use. If you have the others why not buy both? If you buy quality they should last a lifetime under normal home use with care.

 

[Jkts]

The nakiri is sharp enough, you can drop it straight down when diving an onion.

A santoku cuts very differently than a Nakiri.

If you want to cut like a nakiri and have a tip, maybe look for a more straight edge (no belly) bunka with a tip you like.

 

[Hanmak17]

The nakiri is sharp enough, you can drop it straight down when diving an onion.

A santoku cuts very differently than a Nakiri.

If you want to cut like a nakiri and have a tip, maybe look for a more straight edge (no belly) bunka with a tip you like.

Thanks, I will look for that.

 

[bookgeek97]

One alternative to the nakiri, may be a good Chinese vegetable cleaver-- they offer a pointed tip (granted, with a relatively flat profile overall) and a "taller" blade if that's what you are looking for. I use mine to dice onions / draw cuts with no problem at all.

 

[Paraffin]

I discovered something about the nakiri shape that should have been obvious, but didn't occur to me until recently:

You know how everyone recommends using the spine of a high-hardness Japanese knife to scrape ingredients together on the board when chopping, to avoid a chip in the edge?

Well, the front edge of the squared-off nakiri shape works even better, at least for home cook small ingredient piles. It's faster than flipping the knife over to use the spine, and involves less clearing of the whole blade. Can't do that with a bunka or gyuto.

It works best with a nakiri that has a 90 degree front blade angle instead of a "ship's bow" angle, but even that works okay if you get used to it. I just discovered this tonight when chopping some onions and garlic for rice and beans, and a Nicaraguan jalapeno sauce for steak. Can't believe I didn't notice this before.

 

[Chef Doom]

If you are determined to get a nakiri over a cleaver, and you don't have a need for it's predecessor the honorable Usuba, then I would recommend getting a large nakiri which I believe is 210mm. The extra money will be worth the extra surface area.

 

[Chef Doom]

And I am not a fan of santokus regardless of maker or steel.

 

[Matus]

It really depens on your cutting style. For me as a home cook nakiri is a fun knife that I use nearly exclusively for chopping. For this reason big/heavy nakiri makes little sense to me as you can not chop comfortably with a heavy knife (unless you have Rambo forearms). A veggie cleaver (as Chef Doom mentions) is used mostly for slicing.

I found out that (again, for chopping) a nakiri should not weight more than some 175g. I have used 3 nakiris - a 'norma' size 165 with about 50 mm blade height and weight 150g. It felt a little too lightweight in my hand and not tall enough. I then bought Toyama 180 which was nearly 60 mm tall and weighted 200g. Fantastic knife, but proved a bit too heavy. So I finally got a Masakage Koishi 165, which is taller than most and with weight of 175g feels just right in my hand.

When you start to use nakiri you will find out how rarely you actually need a pointy tip.

 

[Paraffin]

It really depens on your cutting style. For me as a home cook nakiri is a fun knife that I use nearly exclusively for chopping. For this reason big/heavy nakiri makes little sense to me as you can not chop comfortably with a heavy knife (unless you have Rambo forearms). A veggie cleaver (as Chef Doom mentions) is used mostly for slicing.

I found out that (again, for chopping) a nakiri should not weight more than some 175g. I have used 3 nakiris - a 'norma' size 165 with about 50 mm blade height and weight 150g. It felt a little too lightweight in my hand and not tall enough. I then bought Toyama 180 which was nearly 60 mm tall and weighted 200g. Fantastic knife, but proved a bit too heavy. So I finally got a Masakage Koishi 165, which is taller than most and with weight of 175g feels just right in my hand.

I've been exploring nakiris recently (bought two), and I agree that weight is a factor, although we'll all probably have different preferences depending on cutting technique and product being cut.

My two nakris are a shorter and heavier Yoshikazu Ikeda (165mm, 220g), and a longer and significantly lighter Kurosaki (180mm, 163g). Both are nearly same blade height at 56mm, 57mm respectively, and both balance at the pinch grip. The extra weight in the shorter Ikeda is partly in a thicker spine and more convex grind in the blade, and partly from a large ebony handle that helps balance the blade. The lighter-weight Kurosaki has a thinner blade and feels more "laser-ish."

So that leads to slightly different applications. I'll grab the heavier Ikeda if I'm doing more chopping than slicing, and the lighter Kurosaki if I'm slicing more than chopping. As a home cook, I don't do enough prep to get fatiqued using the heavier/shorter nakiri for chopping, and I think some added weight helps when chopping. Both nakiris work extremely well, and I could be happy using either one exclusively. It's just fun to have a choice.

When you start to use nakiri you will find out how rarely you actually need a pointy tip.

Right, I don't miss a sharp tip most of the time. I've just had to adapt technique for things like slicing ribs out of bell pepper. There is usually a way to make it work, and I can always grab a paring knife if I need detailed tip action.

 

[Hanmak17]

Thanks for the great posts on Nakiri's.

 

[zetieum]

If you already have guytos, I would certainly recommend getting a Nakiri. It is just more fun to use and will give you a bigger diversity of tool. As a home cook, my cut mainly vegetables and nakiri are jut great for that. You will certainly be confortable using it directly. Finally, those are the easiest knives to sharpen.

 

[Matus]

I've been exploring nakiris recently (bought two), and I agree that weight is a factor, although we'll all probably have different preferences depending on cutting technique and product being cut.

My two nakris are a shorter and heavier Yoshikazu Ikeda (165mm, 220g), and a longer and significantly lighter Kurosaki (180mm, 163g). Both are nearly same blade height at 56mm, 57mm respectively, and both balance at the pinch grip. The extra weight in the shorter Ikeda is partly in a thicker spine and more convex grind in the blade, and partly from a large ebony handle that helps balance the blade. The lighter-weight Kurosaki has a thinner blade and feels more "laser-ish."

So that leads to slightly different applications. I'll grab the heavier Ikeda if I'm doing more chopping than slicing, and the lighter Kurosaki if I'm slicing more than chopping. As a home cook, I don't do enough prep to get fatiqued using the heavier/shorter nakiri for chopping, and I think some added weight helps when chopping. Both nakiris work extremely well, and I could be happy using either one exclusively. It's just fun to have a choice.

I agree 100%. I can well imagine that the rather heavy Ikeda to be a great chopper - the key there is as you said the heavier handle that brings the center of mass back to the pinch grip - the 165mm long blade helps with that too.

If I may ask - how do you like the Ikeda? I was very close to buy one from Bernal some time ago, but finally did not pull the trigger because of the price.

 

[Paraffin]

Yeah, the price on the Ikeda nakiri almost stopped me too, especially since I didn't care whether it was Damascus or not. I had been looking to try a nakiri with a 90 degree front angle, compared to the forward tilt a lot of them have, like the Kurosaki. So I finally just jumped at it (and there goes the knife budget for the rest of the year and into next year).

It's a keeper, I like the weight and the height. The Blue #1 edge is more fun to sharpen than the R2 on the Kurosaki, although it won't last as long. A patina developed quickly and hasn't had any bad effects on food. The only minor complaint I have is that the spine and choil edges were left fairly sharp, which surprised me at this price level. It's not a big deal, I don't use the knife enough hours for that to cause discomfort. But I'll probably make it a project to ease the spine and choil edges at some point.

Another thing that caught me at first, was the length shown on the sale page at epicurious edge was 180mm but it's measured from the ferrule, so the actual blade width is 165mm. Apparently that's common for many Sakai region knives.

 

[Matus]

On a side note - I have refinished one 210 w2 Ikeda from Bernal and really have to say that the choil did not have to be left so rough. I rounded it completely, but a knife in that level of quality could have a little better finish in that regard.