Burr removal

[HumbleHomeCook]

If micro bevel my edge is great and lasts. If I try sharpening without micro beveling to remove the burr the edge never really gets that sharp. Idk how to deburr without a micro bevel. Raising the angle is what has worked best for me. Then lower the angle to, what I imagined, removes the micro bevel

You shouldn't need a micro bevel for sharpness, de-burring or otherwise.

I agree with @Benuser. If you create a micro bevel and then lay the blade back to "remove" the micro bevel, in theory, you should be right back to where you started before you micro beveled. Micro bevels, in my opinion, should be rare and only used for edge stability.

I suspect your micro bevel is giving you something of a "false" edge.

 

[hibbs00]

You better check if the microbevel is really gone. Sharpie, loupe. I doubt it is. If it really were, a new burr should have appeared.

Even if it's not gone I still have a great edge. If removing it does form a new burr, how does one remove the burr staying at the same angle?

 

[hibbs00]

You shouldn't need a micro bevel for sharpness, de-burring or otherwise.

I agree with @Benuser. If you create a micro bevel and then lay the blade back to "remove" the micro bevel, in theory, you should be right back to where you started before you micro beveled. Micro bevels, in my opinion, should be rare and only used for edge stability.

I suspect your micro bevel is giving you something of a "false" edge.

I sharpen kind of like Cliff Stamp mentions if you get a burr or like John Juranitch talks about. Even @stringer raises the angle at the very end. So I'm confused, how would it be a false edge?

 

[stringer]

I sharpen kind of like Cliff Stamp mentions if you get a burr or like John Juranitch talks about. Even @stringer raises the angle at the very end.
How would it be a false edge?

I put a microbevel on everything. Inclusive angle of about 45 degrees.

1. You for sure reach the apex
2. Helps with deburring
3. Make touchups easier
4. Increases durability

 

[hibbs00]

I put a microbevel on everything. Inclusive angle of about 45 degrees.

1. You for sure reach the apex
2. Helps with deburring
3. Make touchups easier
4. Increases durability

View attachment 313682

Same, that's the only way I can deburr. I get my sharpest edge with a micro bevel

 

[Benuser]

Even if it's not gone I still have a great edge. If removing it does form a new burr, how does one remove the burr staying at the same angle?

I just don't believe you're actually completely removing the microbevel with featherligh edge trailing strokes with the finest stone. I know what it takes to get rid of a microbevel.

 

[Benuser]

I put a microbevel on everything. Inclusive angle of about 45 degrees.

1. You for sure reach the apex
2. Helps with deburring
3. Make touchups easier
4. Increases durability

View attachment 313682

Sure, but for me the inconvenience is in the maintenance of this microbevel. I find it hard to hit it exactly.
The difference with the OP is he creates the microbevels only to deburr and believes he removes them with a few strokes on the finest stone. I know what it takes to get rid of a microbevel.

 

[hibbs00]

I just don't believe you're actually completely removing the microbevel with featherligh edge trailing strokes with the finest stone. I know what it takes to get rid of a microbevel.

Maybe I'm not, like I said, that's just what I imagine happens. Either way, my edge is much sharper this way rather than keeping the same angle to deburr.
I know it doesn't matter but I do light edge leading strokes, cross hatching the grit pattern to avoid any new burr

 

[Simon082]

Maybe I'm not, like I said, that's just what I imagine happens. Either way, my edge is much sharper this way rather than keeping the same angle to deburr.
I know it doesn't matter but I do light edge leading strokes, cross hatching the grit pattern to avoid any new burr

At the end of the day do what works for you. I tell you a technique I learned, set an apexed edge on course/medium stones fully and then move to finer stones with stone in hand and sharpen completely off the bench, depending on skill level you can rock the angle to hit entire edge across sweeping strokes for a slight convex edge especially if you allready have microbevel. you can minimise burrs or eliminate them entirely and burnish that edge.

 

[hibbs00]

At the end of the day do what works for you. I tell you a technique I learned, set an apexed edge on course/medium stones fully and then move to finer stones with stone in hand and sharpen completely off the bench, depending on skill level you can rock the angle to hit entire edge across sweeping strokes for a slight convex edge especially if you allready have microbevel. you can minimise burrs or eliminate them entirely and burnish that edge.

I have heard stone in hand works great for some people. Better than in the bench. I have yet to try that. Will next time I sharpen. Maybe it will work for me. Since I found what works so far I like trying new and different things because who knows, it might work better. If not, I can always go back to what does.

 

[stringer]

I have heard stone in hand works great for some people. Better than in the bench. I have yet to try that. Will next time I sharpen. Maybe it will work for me. Since I found what works so far I like trying new and different things because who knows, it might work better. If not, I can always go back to what does.

There's several stone-in-hand videos on my youtube. This is the way I learned to sharpen on my great grandfather's knee almost 40 years ago. I often sharpen stone in hand when I am at work and there is a knife that needs a little more work than I can do with a ceramic hone but not enough to break out the diamonds or coarse crystolon and the stone holder.

 

[Jovidah]

Your great grandpa must have been pretty hardcore if he let you rub knives on his knees...

 

[hibbs00]

There's several stone-in-hand videos on my youtube. This is the way I learned to sharpen on my great grandfather's knee almost 40 years ago. I often sharpen stone in hand when I am at work and there is a knife that needs a little more work than I can do with a ceramic hone but not enough to break out the diamonds or coarse crystolon and the stone holder.

That's awesome. My grandpa is the one who gave me my first knife and the one who got me into sharpening. He knew only the basics but that was enough to spark that fire. Random question; at one time was 440 stainless once considered the top of the line in steel? He always told me to buy 440 so I'm just curious

 

[Redwax]

That's awesome. My grandpa is the one who gave me my first knife and the one who got me into sharpening. He knew only the basics but that was enough to spark that fire. Random question; at one time was 440 stainless once considered the top of the line in steel? He always told me to buy 440 so I'm just curious

Well, 440 is a class of steels. Even to this day 440A and 440C are probably the most popular of the basic 440 alloys and a long time ago 440C was considered to be a premium steel. 440A was generally used when corrosion resistance was a priority over wear resistance.

Now 440C is just considered to be a basic ingot steel in the same family of steels like VG10, Ginsan, 154CM, and others.

 

[hibbs00]

Well, 440 is a class of steels. Even to this day 440A and 440C are probably the most popular of the basic 440 alloys and a long time ago 440C was considered to be a premium steel. 440A was generally used when corrosion resistance was a priority over wear resistance.

Now 440C is just considered to be a basic ingot steel in the same family of steels like VG10, Ginsan, 154CM, and others.

Interesting. I thought VG10 was kind of a super steel. Thank you. That's good to know. I'm still learning

 

[Vertigo]

Interesting. I thought VG10 was kind of a super steel. Thank you. That's good to know. I'm still learning

VG-10 is pretty mid-range as far as steels go, but with a good HT it makes for some decent economy stainless knives. If you want some affordable stainless that will sharpen easy and hold an edge, VG-10 is a good bet. Just be really wary once the price moves past ~150ish USD, because at that point you're most certainly paying for ad copy, not knife.

 

[hibbs00]

VG-10 is pretty mid-range as far as steels go, but with a good HT it makes for some decent economy stainless knives. If you want some affordable stainless that will sharpen easy and hold an edge, VG-10 is a good bet. Just be really wary once the price moves past ~150ish USD, because at that point you're most certainly paying for ad copy, not knife.

That you. I appreciate it. I need to start memorizing all this and all these steels. It's so much to learn

 

[Redwax]

Interesting. I thought VG10 was kind of a super steel. Thank you. That's good to know. I'm still learning

There isn't any agreed upon definition of what a "super steel" is, but a lot of people would say it needs to be a powder steel to qualify.

Nothing wrong with VG10.

 

[Benuser]

VG-10 is a remarkable steel, but since, a lot of others have been developed.
It requires a very exact heat treatment, which is not easily compatible with mass production. It has got a bad name because of a lot of badly treated knives on the market.
One of the remarkable properties is its uncommon dulling curve: it comes with a crazy sharp edge right from the stones that will hold only very shortly. The remaining sharpness which is perfectly suitable in Western cuisine will remain almost forever.
Even the best treated VG-10 will require some proficiency by the sharpener. It requires a patient deburring by abrading the burr after every stone, and a tight progression.
The best VG-10 I've seen was by Hattori.

 

[hibbs00]

This video popped up on my feed. Does anyone know if something similar can be done on bench stones/water stones? Any comments on this technique?

 

[jedy617]

VG-10 is a remarkable steel, but since, a lot of others have been developed.
It requires a very exact heat treatment, which is not easily compatible with mass production. It has got a bad name because of a lot of badly treated knives on the market.
One of the remarkable properties is its uncommon dulling curve: it comes with a crazy sharp edge right from the stones that will hold only very shortly. The remaining sharpness which is perfectly suitable in Western cuisine will remain almost forever.
Even the best treated VG-10 will require some proficiency by the sharpener. It requires a patient deburring by abrading the burr after every stone, and a tight progression.
The best VG-10 I've seen was by Hattori.

I don't get what's remarkable about it, similar to 440c but with a coarser grain structure and unnecessary cobalt addition? How is an exacting heat treat not easily compatible with mass production? Larrin says it's not unusual.

Almost everything is better these days. No offense but this remaining sharpness thing kind of sounds like snake oil. I mean most of my friends and family don't have their knives sharpened, and they will tell you they are perfectly suitable lol. I just don't get the mysticism when we have empirical evidence for a lot of the qualities of steel. Magnacut, apex ultra, vanax, maxamet, s125v, 15v, z tough...those are remarkable steels imo. Not a 400 series steel with some cobalt

 

[Redwax]

This video popped up on my feed. Does anyone know if something similar can be done on bench stones/water stones? Any comments on this technique?

I don't see anything here that is too different to what most people do on bench stones. Obviously it's a little different because he is choosing to deburr on a more perpendicular stroke against the apex rather that try to sweep across the whole edge in one stroke, but I think you could do it successfully either way. The fixed angle takes the angle variability away which is one of the benefits to using a guided system.

With freehand, I think the key is that when you deburr you need to have the ability to maintain a consistent angle right at the apex with light pressure. If you are getting better results by micro-bevelling then I would say you may need to work on keeping that angle constant. Micro-bevelling ensures that you have contact with the apex, which is why many people use that technique and there is nothing wrong with doing that but you may find that perfecting the "same angle as you sharpened" technique will give you slightly better keenness. This is all sharpness nerd stuff though, probably doesn't make much practical difference.

 

[hibbs00]

I don't see anything here that is too different to what most people do on bench stones. Obviously it's a little different because he is choosing to deburr on a more perpendicular stroke against the apex rather that try to sweep across the whole edge in one stroke, but I think you could do it successfully either way. The fixed angle takes the angle variability away which is one of the benefits to using a guided system.

With freehand, I think the key is that when you deburr you need to have the ability to maintain a consistent angle right at the apex with light pressure. If you are getting better results by micro-bevelling then I would say you may need to work on keeping that angle constant. Micro-bevelling ensures that you have contact with the apex, which is why many people use that technique and there is nothing wrong with doing that but you may find that perfecting the "same angle as you sharpened" technique will give you slightly better keenness. This is all sharpness nerd stuff though, probably doesn't make much practical difference.

I'm curious about the short strokes. On a bench stone would you just go in a straight line direction the edge is already going? Basically go to the right and not downwards at all? Go 90 degrees I suppose? Idk if that makes sense lol

 

[aporigine]

I'm curious about the short strokes. On a bench stone would you just go in a straight line direction the edge is already going? Basically go to the right and not downwards at all? Go 90 degrees I suppose? Idk if that makes sense lol

In my hands, short strokes mean tighter angle holding.

 

[hibbs00]

In my hands, short strokes mean tighter angle holding.

What do you mean by that?

 

[aporigine]

What do you mean by that?

It means that my error in maintaining my chosen angle is reduced. I have a hard time decoupling angle accuracy from length of my stroke. So short strokes are safer and more precise.

 

[hibbs00]

It means that my error in maintaining my chosen angle is reduced. I have a hard time decoupling angle accuracy from length of my stroke. So short strokes are safer and more precise.

So the shortest time the edge travels on the stone. Wouldn't that be like holding the knife at 90 degrees from the stone (not edge angle) and then move the knife to the right? Not downwards?
I must be dumb, I'm not understanding this on a bench stone.
Would scrubbing the edge in short movements also be the same for short strokes in the clip?

 

[Redwax]

I'm curious about the short strokes. On a bench stone would you just go in a straight line direction the edge is already going? Basically go to the right and not downwards at all? Go 90 degrees I suppose? Idk if that makes sense lol

I guess you could try it if you think it would be easier to hold the angle. I think in the video he does it mainly because the stone is so small to cover the whole edge. With bench stones you generally have a much bigger area to work on. It would probably work well on a straight edge.

Personally I just try to concentrate on smooth consistent strokes. You don't need to go go fast.

 

[aporigine]

So the shortest time the edge travels on the stone. Wouldn't that be like holding the knife at 90 degrees from the stone (not edge angle) and then move the knife to the right? Not downwards?
I must be dumb, I'm not understanding this on a bench stone.
Would scrubbing the edge in short movements also be the same for short strokes in the clip?

Short in distance, not necessarily time.

The rest I cannot visualize, and don’t wish to give bad advice.

 

[hibbs00]

I guess you could try it if you think it would be easier to hold the angle. I think in the video he does it mainly because the stone is so small to cover the whole edge. With bench stones you generally have a much bigger area to work on. It would probably work well on a straight edge.

Personally I just try to concentrate on smooth consistent strokes. You don't need to go go fast.

I thought that too until he kept mentioning short strokes. I was just curious if there's any difference or not or if short strokes did anything. If no one thinks so I'm not going to worry about it. Thank you

Short in distance, not necessarily time.

The rest I cannot visualize, and don’t wish to give bad advice.

No worries. I really suck at describing anything. I appreciate the input though. Thank you