# Underrated foods....



## MarcelNL

let's start this off with bread, I prefer slow fermented/cured sour dough;


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## Jovidah

Could just as well have posted this in the other thread if worded differently but... meat without marbling or a lot of fat. Okay let me explain, because there is indeed a lot of garbage tasteless meat that also happens to be very lean. And a lot of well marbled meat is indeed very good and flavorful. But the last couple of years I see this trend where people claim that fat equals flavor, and no fat means no flavor. 

That's just bonkers to me. Take for example venison, or most other game meats. Fat? Barely any... but flavor? Immense; more than most if not all beef. In my experience the darkness of the meat is a _far _better indicator of flavor than the amount of fat. I'll happily eat unmarbled venison, grassfed hanger steaks, or lean game birds with barely any fat in them.


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## LostHighway

Thanks for starting this thread. My take on underrated food is partially defined by geography and local culture. This part of the Upper Midwest was largely settled by people of Germanic and Scandinavian descent and was fairly culturally homogeneous until the mid-to-late 1970s. It tends to be a land of relatively unadventurous palates.

I totally agree with regard to good bread. Well made, fresh, whole grain, sourdough bread as well as top flight baguettes (predominantly white flour but again sourdough/naturally leavened with long ferments) can be absolutely sublime. Per @Michi add some good butter and a touch of salt and there are few foods that are better.

Washed rind cheeses and pungent blue cheeses. I love these but they often provoke reactions of fear and revulsion from people who otherwise have fairly broad palates. This is the realm of really big flavors as well as sometimes decidedly pungent odors.

Strongly flavored , usually dark fleshed fish like North Atlantic Mackerel (_Scomber scombrus_) or Bluefish (_Pomatomus saltatrix_). IME these are often hard to find fresh in the trade. In Northern New England mackerel is often just tossed as by catch partially because there is so little demand and partially because it requires rapid handling to get it on ice or frozen quickly because it otherwise deteriorates rapidly. Mackerel is still relatively abundant but bluefish and eel (_Anguilla rostrata) _are, unfortunately, over harvested..


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## MarcelNL

I indeed forgot to add; good butter


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## spaceconvoy

Maybe it's not underrated (just under-talked-about?) since my first thought was also good bread and butter.

Cottage cheese, with salt and more importantly fresh ground pepper, which really elevates it.

Green peppers, the basic crunchy US supermarket variety, thin diced with lemon juice and salt to make a simple salad.

Dried dill, unquestionably my choice if I could only have one herb/spice in a gun-to-my-head type hypothetical situation.

Mustard seed, toasted in a dry pan before making almost anything. Especially good with potatoes. Not underrated in Indian cuisine but for some reason underrated by everyone else.

Basic ham and cheese sandwich on grocery store wheat bread with yellow mustard. This flavor combo just works and you can buy it anywhere. If you ever find yourself stuck in a podunk town with no knives or heat source, this is the best meal you can assemble from a Dollar General.


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## Chips

MarcelNL said:


> I indeed forgot to add; good butter











Le Beurre Bordier Butter


Popularly known as the best butter in the world, Le Beurre Bordier Butter is renowned for their deep complex flavor, and wonderfully smooth texture. Le Beurre Bordier Butters take 12 times longer to make then regular butter and have become a must-have of celebrated chefs. Avalible to buy online...




french.us





I haven't found better.


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## panda

LostHighway said:


> Thanks for starting this thread. My take on underrated food is partially defined by geography and local culture. This part of the Upper Midwest was largely settled by people of Germanic and Scandinavian descent and was fairly culturally homogeneous until the mid-to-late 1970s. It tends to be a land of relatively unadventurous palates.
> 
> I totally agree with regard to good bread. Well made, fresh, whole grain, sourdough bread as well as top flight baguettes (predominantly white flour but again sourdough/naturally leavened with long ferments) can be absolutely sublime. Per @Michi add some good butter and a touch of salt and there are few foods that are better.
> 
> Washed rind cheeses and pungent blue cheeses. I love these but they often provoke reactions of fear and revulsion from people who otherwise have fairly broad palates. This is the realm of really big flavors as well as sometimes decidedly pungent odors.
> 
> Strongly flavored , usually dark fleshed fish like North Atlantic Mackerel (_Scomber scombrus_) or Bluefish (_Pomatomus saltatrix_). IME these are often hard to find fresh in the trade. In Northern New England mackerel is often just tossed as by catch partially because there is so little demand and partially because it requires rapid handling to get it on ice or frozen quickly because it otherwise deteriorates rapidly. Mackerel is still relatively abundant but bluefish and eel (_Anguilla rostrata) _are, unfortunately, over harvested..


any time.i caught a bluefish instead of striped bass I'd get super pissed and throw it back into the water


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## JDC

Coconuts and dates in FL. They fall to the ground constantly but literarily nobody sells them.


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## rmrf

Cooked white button mushrooms over wild mushrooms. A little soy, sherry, and lemon juice and they're delicious.

Pork loin. A cheap cut but is delicious if cooked to ~140 (I hear sous vide works well but I go low and slow in an oven) and seared hard in lots of fat. You don't need fatty pork to have delicious pork. I prefer a good pork loin roast to a pork belly roast.

Kale/Chard salad. I don't know if this is underrated, but kale and chard make great salads. They're also good chiffonade practice. 

Canned bone-in sardines. Boneless ones have substantially less flavor. A can of sardines heated up with bread, pasta, rice, or potatoes and a salad forms a satisfying meal. Add a fried egg or two if you are feeling fancy.

Mint. Mint is almost a weed in many areas. If you can grow it, you should! I love cooking with it. I use it where recipes call for basil or parsley or any other green herb. It is a bit of an acquired taste in western foods, however. An easier option is to substitute mint for vietnamese / south east asian herbs. If thats not your cup of tea, you can dry the mint and make an amazing herbal tea out of it!


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## cotedupy

spaceconvoy said:


> Maybe it's not underrated (just under-talked-about?) since my first thought was also good bread and butter.
> 
> Cottage cheese, with salt and more importantly fresh ground pepper, which really elevates it.
> 
> Green peppers, the basic crunchy US supermarket variety, thin diced with lemon juice and salt to make a simple salad.
> 
> Dried dill, unquestionably my choice if I could only have one herb/spice in a gun-to-my-head type hypothetical situation.
> 
> Mustard seed, toasted in a dry pan before making almost anything. Especially good with potatoes. Not underrated in Indian cuisine but for some reason underrated by everyone else.
> 
> Basic ham and cheese sandwich on grocery store wheat bread with yellow mustard. This flavor combo just works and you can buy it anywhere. If you ever find yourself stuck in a podunk town with no knives or heat source, this is the best meal you can assemble from a Dollar General.



Funnily enough I was going to include Jamon Buerre in my list of overrated foods. It's certainly overrated by the French.


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## Rangen

It's probably childhood imprinting. I was over at my grandfather's house, and they offered me sardines and saltines. These were the little ones, two layers in the little can. Norwegian? It was an epiphany that has carried to this day. Oh, I like the larger sardines well enough, but I still find the little ones, which must be in olive oil, accept no substitutes, magically wonderful, just as they are, laid on a cracker. For me they are a gourmet food at ordinary food prices, and yet few seem to care, or to think of them as anything other than ordinary, slightly downscale, food. May they remain undiscovered.


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## cotedupy

rmrf said:


> Cooked white button mushrooms over wild mushrooms.



Particularly Chanterelles. Chanterelles are garbage.

---

An encouraging number of mentions for oily fish here already, Mackerel in particular is superb.

Do anchovies count as underrated? I think they're underappreciated in the general population, but there's not much middle ground between people who think they don't like them, and the enlightened who realise they are the single greatest foodstuff on earth. Nobody is 'meh' about anchovies.

Kippers are probably underrated, even in the UK.

Proper vegetables, with two or less syllables in their name, are underrated; peas, carrots, sweetcorn, lettuce &c. Novelty veg like broccolini get far too much attention. In fact any effete Latinate vegetable ending in an 'i' is likely worth avoiding.

Nectarines too - whoever does the PR for peaches is worth their weight in gold.

Dinner is underrated. People go on about the joys of a long lunch, but it's only because they associate it with holidays in Spain, and not having to work. Breakfast isn't really even a meal; if you want to do breakfast well you should probably copy the Spanish there too, and base it exclusively on coffee and cheap brandy.


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## spaceconvoy

cotedupy said:


> Proper vegetables, with two or less syllables in their name, are underrated; peas, carrots, sweetcorn, lettuce &c. Novelty veg like broccolini gets far too much attention. In fact any effete Latinate vegetable ending in an 'i' is likely worth avoiding.


I liked your post for this section only, to be clear  trying to ignore the chanterelles comment



cotedupy said:


> Funnily enough I was going to include Jamon Buerre in my list of overrated foods. It's certainly overrated by the French.


That's about as similar to an american ham and cheese sandwich as bucatini all'Amatriciana is to spaghetti with Ragu meat sauce and Kraft powdered cheese... which is actually underrated too, if only because of how low most people would rate it. Maybe it's the childhood imprinting


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## rickbern

Chips said:


> Le Beurre Bordier Butter
> 
> 
> Popularly known as the best butter in the world, Le Beurre Bordier Butter is renowned for their deep complex flavor, and wonderfully smooth texture. Le Beurre Bordier Butters take 12 times longer to make then regular butter and have become a must-have of celebrated chefs. Avalible to buy online...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> french.us
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't found better.


Now, that’s a recommendation from a trustworthy source! On my shopping list, thanks!


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## rickbern

I’d say parsley is under rated. Great herb on its own, relegated to being a kitchen afterthought. Especially curly. 

the Vietnamese have taught me that spam is underrated (the rating scale doesnt go that much lower)but I can’t quite bring myself to open a can of it.

cheap fish is always, by definition, underrated. If it wasn’t, it’d be expensive. In my markets skate and monkfish are the best choices.

hanger steak is underrated here too. Nobody knows what to do with it.

Pork shoulder is the reigning king of underrated proteins around here. Can’t find one in an upscale butcher store, you go to a market where the elite don’t shop and it costs about ten percent of what pork loin sells for.


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## MarcelNL

I'll also try that one, I never heard of Bordier,, I have tried Beppi Ocelli's butter Butter - Occelli
Which was good but not totally worth the hassle over the organic butter (from Germany) Lidl has to offer.


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## Jovidah

rickbern said:


> hanger steak is underrated here too. Nobody knows what to do with it.


Please stop telling people. It's the best part of the cow and it's relatively cheap as hell because there's no market for it. 

Regarding cheap fish... I honestly don't understand it. Maybe I just lack the refined taste required, but I struggle to notice all that much of a difference between cheap white fish and expensive white fish. It mostly tastes the same to me. Whiting tastes the same as cod to me. And mackerel is just plain awesome; god knows why that's so cheap. But suits me just fine!


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## rickbern

Jovidah said:


> Please stop telling people. It's the best part of the cow and it's relatively cheap as hell because there's no market for it.
> 
> Regarding cheap fish... I honestly don't understand it. Maybe I just lack the refined taste required, but I struggle to notice all that much of a difference between cheap white fish and expensive white fish. It mostly tastes the same to me. Whiting tastes the same as cod to me. And mackerel is just plain awesome; god knows why that's so cheap. But suits me just fine!


I forgot mackerel! Put some dry vermouth in the pan, it’s magical!


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## rickbern

@Michi , sausage is underrated. Meatloaf too.

And seafood sausage, it seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. Must be too labor intensive or the dept of health doesn’t care for it.


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## Lars

Speaking of oily fish, herring is a personal favorite.


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## KenHash

Bluefish is actually quite mild and fine from snapper size up to cocktail blues. Once they go over 5/6 lbs they feed so much on Bunker (menhaden) on the USEC that they develop an unappetizing oily flavor. Stripers also, when they get big are best after removing the blood line. But Bluefish need to be iced when caught. And it doesn't fare freezing well at all. Once frozen, it's garbage. 
Atlantic Mackerel are also an oily, but tasty fish. This fish also needs to be chilled as soon as possible, as not only does the quality drop dramatically, but I believe it may increase the risk of scromboid poisoning. 
I fished and prepared New York fish for over 40 years. I was going to say cooked, but realized much of it was sashimi or marinated.

Cheap fish (under rated) are simply fish for which there is little demand, and therefore attain low prices. But in the 70s US Fishing fleets were throwing Monkish (Gooosefish) away until the fact that it is a prized foodfish in France, Italy (Japan too) caught on. I'm expecting Sea Robins to eventually follow this path, as the more valuable fish supplies diminish. 

Here in Hokkaido I'm eating Cod, Salmon, Herring,Atka Mackerel most of the time. In recent years Pacific Yellowtail has become abundant due to global warming and higher water temperatures. This was a fish that historically never came this far north. Similarly I think one can expect this kind of change with other species in other parts of the world as the ocean temperatures rise.


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## tally-ho

rickbern said:


> it seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. Must be too labor intensive


In that category falls the chrones, I remember my grand-parents scraping every single chrones to peel them (very labor intensive and will darken your fingers), then boiled in hot water and then cooked rapidely in an frying pan with oil, garlic and parsley. Very delicate and subtle taste.
One of my old time favorite is the gratin of cardoon with marrowbone. Marrowbone really makes the difference (no bechamel please).


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## Jovidah

tally-ho said:


> In that category falls the chrones, I remember my grand-parents scraping every single chrones to peel them (very labor intensive and will darken your fingers), then boiled in hot water and then cooked rapidely in an frying pan with oil, garlic and parsley. Very delicate and subtle taste.
> One of my old time favorite is the gratin of cardoon with marrowbone. Marrowbone really makes the difference (no bechamel please).


I think it's quite telling there isn't evne a Dutch page for it.  It look sa bit like jerusalem artichoke... which is similarly annoying to peel (but very tasty if you have good ones).


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## MarcelNL

smoked pig cheek,. I just prepared Spaghetti with a fairly basic sauce made of onion celery, garlic, carrot, some sage, dash of red wine, some anchovy, cherry tomato passata, and half a courgette, adding a handfull of sauteed chopped smoked organic pig cheek and some ricotta and almost received an standing ovation from the family, all the honor should go to the pig!


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## MarcelNL

Jovidah said:


> I think it's quite telling there isn't evne a Dutch page for it.  It look sa bit like jerusalem artichoke... which is similarly annoying to peel (but very tasty if you have good ones).



I'v seen them in Asian stores, not sure where but likely in Rotterdam


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## Michi

rickbern said:


> @Michi , sausage is underrated. Meatloaf too.
> 
> And seafood sausage, it seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. Must be too labor intensive or the dept of health doesn’t care for it.


I can understand why sausage is underrated. At least in Australia, the majority of sausage is garbage, so it's not surprising that people aren't excited about it. It's different in Germany, where pretty much any butcher will sell you something really nice.

Seafood sausage, for all intents and purposes, doesn't exist here. I have it on my list to try


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## Rangen

The majority of sausage in the US is garbage, too. There are exceptions. A wonderful place in Wisconsin that makes right-on Bratwurst and even Weisswurst, that I order in quantity, to be sure of always having some on hand. New Orleans is of course an exception. You could argue that the wonderful Boudin is more of a meat and rice meal, stuffed into a casing, than a sausage, but whatever it is, it's great.

Then there are the sausages you'd never want to eat straight up, but which are magic in the right context. Chinese sausage is like that. Doesn't seem like much until you cut it up and let its juices soak into some rice, preferably glutinous.

So is proper Andouille. I don't mean so much of what goes under the name, and tastes like Kielbasa. I mean the real smoky deal, which takes wrong on its own, but makes a gumbo set off fireworks of happiness in your head.


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## Michi

Another seriously underrated food is offal. There are tons of absolutely delicious dishes that can be made with it.

Beef heart makes great stews, for example. The meat is ultra-lean and tasty. Similar for chicken hearts and giblets. You can put those on the grill or turn them into stew for something extremely tasty. And you haven't lived if you haven't tried well-prepared sweetbreads!

No need to go into more controversial kinds of offal, although they also have their merits. Spleen, lung, kidney, liver, tongue—they all can be used to make great dishes

There are some that leave me cold, though. Brains are just plain boring, IMO, no matter how they are prepared. Testes and udders are similar; spongy texture and almost no taste, not terribly interesting.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Vinegars.


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## McMan

Under-rated...
Very good quality beans, especially the underrepresented varieties.


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## Keith Sinclair

David Wong natural farming eliminates pesticides. Pioneered in Asia uses micro-organisms to cultivate soil and nourish plants. 

He feeds his pigs all organic vegetables & fruits. All vegetarian diet. No antibiotics or steroids. 

His produce & pork used in top eateries on Oahu. You can buy his pork at Don Quijote & 
Marukai wholesale market. Cost little more than mass produced pork, but worth it. 

Many people don't like strong flavored fish, that's ok more for us that do.


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## Keith Sinclair

Baby Bok Choy goes well with lots of dishes & sauces. David Songs pork chops.


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## Keith Sinclair

Dag spell correct Wongs


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## panda

fish sausage


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## panda

garlic stems


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## zizirex

MarcelNL said:


> I indeed forgot to add; good butter


Oh gosh, living the Worst Coast of Canada, a place full of ****** ingredients and with crazy restriction of Dairy products, I live in butter hell. Thank goodness I spent most of my money across the border to grab as much as I could Include all of the french butter I could get. Bordier, Echire, Lescure, Isigny St Mere, Rudolf Meunier etc.


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## Chips

rickbern said:


> Now, that’s a recommendation from a trustworthy source! On my shopping list, thanks!



In the US, I think this is the only way to get it, and it needs to be pre-ordered on a limited waitlist a month or month and a half beforehand!









The World's Best Foods, Delivered | F R E N C H E R Y


The World's Best Foods (USA, France, Italy, Spain & More), Delivered!




www.frenchery.com





FWIW, I find their "lightly salted" to be quite salty. The unsalted is devine.


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## rickbern

MarcelNL said:


> smoked pig cheek,. I just prepared Spaghetti with a fairly basic sauce made of onion celery, garlic, carrot, some sage, dash of red wine, some anchovy, cherry tomato passata, and half a courgette, adding a handfull of sauteed chopped smoked organic pig cheek and some ricotta and almost received an standing ovation from the family, all the honor should go to the pig!


Giving credit where credit is due!


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## Jovidah

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Vinegars.


Shouldn't that be in overrated?  Why use vinegar when you can use citrus!


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## Keith Sinclair

Vinegars have their place. Vinegar chix. Wings one of my favorites. 

Never buy store bought salad dressing anymore make my own with red wine vinegar.

Rice vinegar is a staple in oriental cooking. I'm sure other folks around the planet use it too.

Some people just don't like it, not in that camp.


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## Jovidah

Yeah I might be biased since for some reason even just a hint of vinegar smell or taste makes me gag. Putting any vinegar in food tends to completely ruin it for me.


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## o_in_nyc

Without doubt, the underrated MVP in my fridge is.... NAPA CABBAGE! Perfect for salads but unlike lettuce, it lasts for weeks. Excellent in stir fry. Use it with dip as healthier alternative to chips. The list goes on... Try to get as one that's as firm as possible, more white/yellow than green. 
Recipes: "Not sure what to do with that napa cabbage? We've got some ideas


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## kot_blini

Tarragon! French-style preparations can be nice, but I really love how its used in the Caucuses, Iran, and central Asia. 

Chicken liver is readily available in the US and even high quality options are not so expensive. An accessible intro to organ meats. If you are feeling nervous about it, try it in a pasta with other strong flavors to balance like tomatoes or red wine.

Seitan is pretty unappealing in western cuisine (imo). But it has been around for over a thousand years in east Asia and people have had the time to develop countless ways to make it very very good. Same goes for non-seitan mock meats from the region. Mock meat is not limited to the hyper-processed protein bricks from the grocery store!


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## Knivperson

Liver paté on rye bread with pickled cucumber or pickled beet root on top.

Picked herring on rye bread with raw onions and capers.

Old cheese on rye bread with pig lard on top of the bread, dijon mustard and jellied stock on top of the cheese.

Just some of the weird but good things we eat in Denmark


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## Keith Sinclair

Fresh Tarragon good with seafood too. Goes well in a butter base sauce with little white wine.


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## BillHanna

a cold _glass _of water


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## zizirex

Chips said:


> In the US, I think this is the only way to get it, and it needs to be pre-ordered on a limited waitlist a month or month and a half beforehand!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The World's Best Foods, Delivered | F R E N C H E R Y
> 
> 
> The World's Best Foods (USA, France, Italy, Spain & More), Delivered!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.frenchery.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, I find their "lightly salted" to be quite salty. The unsalted is devine.


Le District and French cheese board carries it in New York. They dont always have it though.


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## Jovidah

Actually rather shocking no one mentioned this in either thread in some way but... bird thighs. I can understand and excuse prioritizing breast fillets on small game birds that barely have any thigh meat to begin with, and at least on ducks there's a nice layer of fat you can crisp up. But I really struggle to care about the breast fillets on any normal bird, whether it's chicken, turkey, guineafowl, or whatever... it's the thighs and legs where all the flavor is! If you don't like bones, just debone the whole leg and go from there!
On the bright side, this means that the best meat is the cheapest.


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## Keith Sinclair

We agree on that one 
I'm willing to pay more for pasture raised chicken that is available locally. Can get thighs that have no hormones, antibiotics etc. Just the 
chicken. Same with pork & fish. Get fish caught same day in Chinatown or morning fish market. 

The old fish at whole foods forget it. 

A lot is made about cruelty to animals in food industry. All that stuff they put in them to fatten 
& Keep from getting sick from crowded unhealthy conditions.


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## osakajoe

Raw chicken sashimi. 

Has blown every mind I’ve had try in Japan at a proper izakaya.


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## Lars

German food.


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## zizirex

Poffertjes


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## Pisau

zizirex said:


> Poffertjes








@zizirex I betcha you're familiar with these

The other day me waifu bought a funny cake mold at an Indonesian grocery, it's actually meant for making poffertjes on steroids named "kue cubit" like the ones I made above...


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## zizirex

Pisau said:


> View attachment 150444
> 
> 
> @zizirex I betcha you're familiar with these
> 
> The other day me waifu bought a funny cake mold at an Indonesian grocery, it's actually meant for making poffertjes on steroids named "kue cubit" like the ones I made above...


Yep, pinch cake!! Poor man’s Poffertjes. Still you’re missing the Haagelslag or Meses, It’s a mandatory and it’s better to serve it half cooked.


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## Bear

Jovidah said:


> Actually rather shocking no one mentioned this in either thread in some way but... bird thighs. I can understand and excuse prioritizing breast fillets on small game birds that barely have any thigh meat to begin with, and at least on ducks there's a nice layer of fat you can crisp up. But I really struggle to care about the breast fillets on any normal bird, whether it's chicken, turkey, guineafowl, or whatever... it's the thighs and legs where all the flavor is! If you don't like bones, just debone the whole leg and go from there!
> On the bright side, this means that the best meat is the cheapest.



Thighs are a staple for me, boned and ground they make a great base for chili, sausage or whatever.


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## DitmasPork

Underrated?
Cheap fish: whiting, mackerel, porgies, pompano
Cheap beef cuts: paleron (top blade), London broil, picanha, shin, flank
Cheap pork cuts: rib end chops, country style ribs
Cheap chicken: light fowl (spent egg laying hens)


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## Jovidah

Picanha and flank steak are becoming more and more mainstream here. It's also reflected in the price; not long before they'll become overpriced and overrated. Both of them pretty much stopped being a good deal already at this point.


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## DitmasPork

Jovidah said:


> Picanha and flank steak are becoming more and more mainstream here. It's also reflected in the price; not long before they'll become overpriced and overrated. Both of them pretty much stopped being a good deal already at this point.


I remember when oxtails were cheap, now their quite pricey.


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## Ruso

Atlantic Cod Liver.
Cranberry.


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## Ochazuke

I never get tired of good nukazuke. But the grannies who make it really well are dwindling in number...


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## rickbern

Even more underated than Spam!










A neglected protein-rich 'superfood'


Insects are a nutrition-dense source of protein embraced by much of the world. Why are some of us so squeamish about eating them?




www.bbc.com


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## DitmasPork

rickbern said:


> Even more underated than Spam!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A neglected protein-rich 'superfood'
> 
> 
> Insects are a nutrition-dense source of protein embraced by much of the world. Why are some of us so squeamish about eating them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


Mmmmmm, loooove SPAM.


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## DitmasPork

Canned corned beef.


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## Noxion

Vinegar made of Teran wine. 
Incredible taste; amazing with chicory salads.


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## rickbern

Noxion said:


> Vinegar made of Teran wine.
> Incredible taste; amazing with chicory salads.


Noxion, I think we can learn a lot from you. Are you French? Where’s teran wine from. I googled karst to see what I could see.

edit- wines from Slovenia?


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## Noxion

rickbern said:


> Noxion, I think we can learn a lot from you. Are you French? Where’s teran wine from. I googled karst to see what I could see.
> 
> edit- wines from Slovenia?











Karst Plateau - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





The *Karst Plateau* or the *Karst region* (Slovene: _Kras_, Italian: _Carso_), is a karst plateau region divided between two states; southwestern republic of Slovenia and northeastern Republic of Italy.

Visit Kras
on this link you can get a feeling of how the region looks and feels like. I added one mine pic of the nature in autumn.


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## Noxion

MarcelNL said:


> I'll also try that one, I never heard of Bordier,, I have tried Beppi Ocelli's butter Butter - Occelli
> Which was good but not totally worth the hassle over the organic butter (from Germany) Lidl has to offer.



Never tried Bordier.
However, Beppino Occelli butter is very expensive and has a taste of milk's cream. A very particular taste one cannot compare to other offerings. It recalls pastry products. 
The organic butter from Lidl has nothing in common with it. 
The salted Lurpak is a strong heavy butter for full grain breads. In any case; a quality butter is usually just a butter. However, the market is swamped with butter made as a by-product; cheese making and other uses of milk. 
Butter made from milk as a first and dedicated product has a low market volume and is costly.


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## rickbern

Noxion said:


> Karst Plateau - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The *Karst Plateau* or the *Karst region* (Slovene: _Kras_, Italian: _Carso_), is a karst plateau region divided between two states; southwestern republic of Slovenia and northeastern Republic of Italy.
> 
> Visit Kras
> on this link you can get a feeling of how the region looks and feels like. I added one mine pic of the nature in autumn.
> 
> What led you to guess we're French?


I looked quickly and saw that the Jura area has karst topography


----------



## Stx00lax

Pork shoulder blade steak. One of the cheapest cuts of meat in the entire grocery store, but incredibly delicious when cooked properly.

Cilantro stems. Most Americans throw these away when everyone else (primarily SE Asian countries)would never waste them.

Good spices. Most home spice cabinets are filled with garbage/overpriced spices that are most likely expired. Buy whole spices from the bulk section and toast/grind yourself. Use ASAP.

Fresh tomatoes.


----------



## WaTFTanaki

MarcelNL said:


> I indeed forgot to add; good butter


In UK I have found two butters that are extraordinary. Ampersand butter by a mile, though it’s salted. The guy studied butter making in Sweden and all he does is make butter in small hand made batches. The estate creamery also has super butter both salted and not salted. And their double cream is superb and it’s easy to make your own home made clotted cream, perhaps Britain’s greatest contribution to dairy culinary culture. Honorable mention goes to bourdier and a small organic place in the Isle of Wight. In my limited experience though the Swedes make the best cultured butter bar none. I had some smoked and non smoked butter in Stockholm that was ridiculous.


----------



## MarcelNL

Noxion said:


> Never tried Bordier.
> However, Beppino Occelli butter is very expensive and has a taste of milk's cream. A very particular taste one cannot compare to other offerings. It recalls pastry products.
> The organic butter from Lidl has nothing in common with it.
> The salted Lurpak is a strong heavy butter for full grain breads. In any case; a quality butter is usually just a butter. However, the market is swamped with butter made as a by-product; cheese making and other uses of milk.
> Butter made from milk as a first and dedicated product has a low market volume and is costly.


Bordier is as expensive as Ocelli, there are many places where butter is made on the artisanale way, to me the milk that is used speaks more than the method.


----------



## WaTFTanaki

Also pork collar is ridiculously yummy


----------



## Noxion

MarcelNL said:


> Bordier is as expensive as Ocelli, there are many places where butter is made on the artisanale way, to me the milk that is used speaks more than the method.



Totally agree; good butter starts with good milk and a dedicated butter process.
In Italy the market was always dominated with milk grease sold as butter. The milk is usually used to make cheese, like Parmigano, Grana Padano, etc. and from the remains the milk grease is collected and sold under butter. Italy is probably the worst place to get a real butter. In recent years, thanks to Internet, the things are improving.


----------



## cotedupy

Michi said:


> Another seriously underrated food is offal. There are tons of absolutely delicious dishes that can be made with it.
> 
> Beef heart makes great stews, for example. The meat is ultra-lean and tasty. Similar for chicken hearts and giblets. You can put those on the grill or turn them into stew for something extremely tasty. And you haven't lived if you haven't tried well-prepared sweetbreads!
> 
> No need to go into more controversial kinds of offal, although they also have their merits. Spleen, lung, kidney, liver, tongue—they all can be used to make great dishes
> 
> There are some that leave me cold, though. Brains are just plain boring, IMO, no matter how they are prepared. Testes and udders are similar; spongy texture and almost no taste, not terribly interesting.



You'd fit right in at pretty much any hip new London restaurant opening of the last 10 or 15 years! (I blame St John).

I must confess that I'm not quite on board myself just yet. Beef and chicken hearts I quite like, but could happily leave a lot of the rest, and stuff like tripe and chitterlings are actively nasty. I've never knowingly eaten spleen or lung, but they sound pretty hardcore too.

Ever eaten a traditionally prepared Woodcock? That's fairly unpleasant. Apparently the thing to do is remove the guts and make them into a kinda gritty sh*tty gravy to pour over the top of the bird, which must be very well hung, and served almost raw. Then at the end; cut the head in half lengthways, scoop out the brains with a special spoon, and eat them smeared on a piece of bread that has been placed under the Woodcock to soak up all the bird-sh*it sauce, lest any go to waste.

I have not let my friend cook me Woodcock a second time.

---

Back on topic - a couple of excellent things you see a lot in Chinese restaurants that are probably underrated / avoided by many Westerners - jellyfish, and chicken's feet.


----------



## cotedupy

Noxion said:


> Vinegar made of Teran wine.
> Incredible taste; amazing with chicory salads.



Extra points for nicheness!

And if non-vinegared wine counts as food I think we could probably extend this to say - Slovenian wine in general is massively underrated. Those of Collio and Carso, on both sides of the border, are some of the great wines of the world.


----------



## MarcelNL

thanks for warning me about woodcock  
Chicken feet I have 'done' in China and I do not think they are underrated....as well as jelly fish, sea cucumber and some other unnamed invertebrates (for me) I had in Japan....


----------



## Noxion

cotedupy said:


> Extra points for nicheness!
> 
> And if non-vinegared wine counts as food I think we could probably extend this to say - Slovenian wine in general is massively underrated. Those of Collio and Carso, on both sides of the border, are some of the great wines of the world.



Goriška brda have a few special wines that get exported all over the world. Of course there are other wine regions in Slovenia. The best wines are made by small and niche wine cellars. After all, the whole state of Slovenia has less than 2 million people,...


----------



## Michi

cotedupy said:


> Ever eaten a traditionally prepared Woodcock?


No, I haven’t. But now that you mentioned it, it’s on my bucket list 

I found a video that shows the whole preparation. I have no doubt that this would be delicious!


----------



## Bodine

Ive killed a pile of woodcock, snipe, doves, all similar birds in taste and texture.
Just cut out the breast, dredge in flour and fry, simply awesome.
Now you can do the bone out the breast, wrap in bacon with a sliver of Jalapeno inserted, pretty tasty as well. You can fry or smoke this version.


----------



## cotedupy

Bodine said:


> Ive killed a pile of woodcock, snipe, doves, all similar birds in taste and texture.
> Just cut out the breast, dredge in flour and fry, simply awesome.
> Now you can do the bone out the breast, wrap in bacon with a sliver of Jalapeno inserted, pretty tasty as well. You can fry or smoke this version.



That sounds about a billion times better than the 'traditional' British way!


----------



## Delat

DitmasPork said:


> Canned corned beef.
> 
> View attachment 151632



My parents used to cook up corned beef, cabbage, onions, rice, and scotch bonnet as kind of a Jamaican fried rice. I cook it every once in a while with deli corned beef but it's just not the same as the canned stuff. Bonus points if the can uses one of those key things to peel open.


----------



## DitmasPork

Delat said:


> My parents used to cook up corned beef, cabbage, onions, rice, and scotch bonnet as kind of a Jamaican fried rice. I cook it every once in a while with deli corned beef but it's just not the same as the canned stuff. Bonus points if the can uses one of those key things to peel open.



It's a Polynesian kitchen staple, some stores in Hawaii keep it behind lock and key, to discourage shoplifters. Yeah, I've had a lot of canned corned beef and cabbage growing up—Palm brand from New Zealand was one of the most sought after brands—usually eaten over rice, with a dollop of mayonnaise and drizzle of shoyu.

Here's my gussied up version of island style corned beef 'n' cabbage with saffron aïoli.


----------



## cotedupy

Michi said:


> No, I haven’t. But now that you mentioned it, it’s on my bucket list
> 
> I found a video that shows the whole preparation. I have no doubt that this would be delicious!




Excellent video! That was certainly the gist of it, though your man's presentation was a little neater than ours, as we served them whole on top of the toast and let people get interactive. He also cooked it a fair bit longer that we did; my friend's assertion that Woodcock should be eaten 'as rare as you dare' I found... challenging.

Nevertheless it will always hold a place in my heart... I organised that lunch about ten years ago with someone on twitter, there were other courses but the general theme was: 'Little Birds, Big Bottles', so everybody had to bring one or more mags. We invited about ten other food/wine biz people, but none of us had ever met before in real life, and I'd now count all of them among my closest friends. So I'll forgive the Woodcock .


----------



## AT5760

Canned corned beef? Hmm. That’s new to me. Though I did grow up eating loads of canned corned beef hash. Don’t miss that though.


----------



## Delat

AT5760 said:


> Canned corned beef? Hmm. That’s new to me. Though I did grow up eating loads of canned corned beef hash. Don’t miss that though.



Here’s the key thing I mentioned. I’ve never seen this type of can opening anywhere else.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Simple fried fish with little soy sauce thin match stick cut fresh ginger.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Corned Beef … brings back such memories.

Back in the early 80’s when I was starting my software business money was in seriously short supply. I was given a case of corned beef that my father-in-law had bought at auction. I gave half to my partner who was equally poor with the admonishment that it needed to be prepared hot in a recipe to be eaten. It looked like canned cat food I said … cold it surely tasted like cat food. I prepared a corned beef hash meal with onions, cabbage and potatoes (with an occasional egg on top) where the primary theme spice was dill weed sprinkled liberally on top during cooking. I ate that meal for 31 days straight until the free corned beef ran out.

I still have a couple of cans of corned beef in the cupboard.

Yum!


----------



## MarcelNL

Real Alpine cheese...made from cows grazing in completely natural environment without any fertilizer at 1800 meters or so. I brought some from my trip last week, ridiculously good.


----------



## MarcelNL

and let's add freshly roasted coffee of decent quality, there is only one disadvantage; the number of places you can drink coffee at goes down like crazy once you're hooked.


----------



## Jovidah

Does anyone really underrate alpine cheeses? I think they have a pretty solid rep.
But yeah... the diet makes a huge difference, especially if you don't butcher the milk by pasteurizing it. Right now the Dutch raw milk cheese is 'in season' too; the best cheese is in autumn IMO.


----------



## MarcelNL

to me it's underrated because you can buy it nowhere in the Netherlands....we have a pretty great cheese shop in town, selling all kinds of great cheeses made of unpasteurized milk but they cannot even buy the stuff.
I recently found out I can now order the good stuff online, at a price but still.  
Being in the Valley I visites so often before I was able to buy the special stuff from his father in law, his cheese finally made it's way into the shops.


----------



## Delat

Brian Weekley said:


> Corned Beef … brings back such memories.
> 
> Back in the early 80’s when I was starting my software business money was in seriously short supply. I was given a case of corned beef that my father-in-law had bought at auction. I gave half to my partner who was equally poor with the admonishment that it needed to be prepared hot in a recipe to be eaten. It looked like canned cat food I said … cold it surely tasted like cat food. I prepared a corned beef hash meal with onions, cabbage and potatoes (with an occasional egg on top) where the primary theme spice was dill weed sprinkled liberally on top during cooking. I ate that meal for 31 days straight until the free corned beef ran out.
> 
> I still have a couple of cans of corned beef in the cupboard.
> 
> Yum!



 OMG surprised you don’t have a lifelong aversion to corned beef after that experience!


----------



## Delat

MarcelNL said:


> and let's add freshly roasted coffee of decent quality, there is only one disadvantage; the number of places you can drink coffee at goes down like crazy once you're hooked.



Whenever I travel somewhere new for work I try to build in an extra day so I can find a local cafe that roasts its own beans and try a cuppa.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Delat said:


> OMG surprised you don’t have a lifelong aversion to corned beef after that experience!


No … but I did develop an affection for Dill Weed. Ummm baby potatoes, nice butter, S&P and dill … I drool just thinking about it.


----------



## MarcelNL

Delat said:


> Whenever I travel somewhere new for work I try to build in an extra day so I can find a local cafe that roasts its own beans and try a cuppa.


I bring my own coffee and Cafalat Robot when travelling...easier than sqeezing in an extra day ;-)


----------



## zizirex

DitmasPork said:


> Canned corned beef.
> 
> View attachment 151632


The best topping for Indomie Mie Goreng after poached egg.


----------



## Rangen

Kidneys are kind of the ultimate underrated food.

I once wore out a lot of shoe leather, wandering around London, looking for a steak-and-kidney pie. Thought it would be easy. It was not. All I found was some mediocre frozen thing in a pub. I since met a guy who told me two things:

1. Go to a restaurant called The Engineer
2. Steak-and-kidney pudding is better than steak-and-kidney pie.

Alas, I have not had a chance to test any of this. But my ultimate kidney dish is the Sichuan treatment. I've made Fuchsia Dunlop's version at home, and it is a very good test of knife work, removing those cores. I don't really like working with kidneys, though, so I'd rather someone else does it for me.

The best kidney dish I've had was in Hong Kong, at an amazing place in/near Wan Chai (Deng G). The perfect Sichuan kidneys. The only problem is, if you eat a kidney dish in the US, many people at the table won't touch it. In Hong Kong, they're all into it, so you get a couple of bites before it vanishes.


----------



## KingShapton

OK, then my 2 cents on the underrated foods .... I have to go back a bit and I'm not quite sure whether it deserves its own thread, but I think it fits in here quite well ...

For years I have attached great importance to eating whenever possible only foods that are as little industrially preprocessed as possible. So if possible no man-made foods. This includes, among other things, that we bake our own bread, for example. I just can't stand industrially processed foods, my body doesn't react well to them at all.

A few weeks ago, inspired by some documentation, I started to focus almost exclusively on regionally grown seasonal foods, if possible in organic quality, i.e. grown without the use of pesticides, fungicides and artificial fertilizers. And I have to say, I was completely surprised by the difference in quality, both in terms of taste, consistency, mouthfeel and the fact that you have to eat less to be full. No joke, I was shocked by how good a fresh carrot or parsnip can taste. If you think about it for a moment, it almost goes without saying that vegetables that are grown regionally (if possible in the immediate vicinity) and are harvested for the respective season do not have long transport routes. It is harvested ripe and was able to develop its full quality and taste, in contrast, for example, with a tomato that is harvested unripe in China or Morocco and is sent halfway around the world so that it ripens during transport (if you can call it that).

At the beginning it is a bit strange when you no longer have access to all kinds of vegetables and fruits, as you have known and used for years, regardless of the season. But this almost forces you to be a little more creative, to think outside the box. I gradually get the impression that the year-round availability of globally grown vegetables tempts you to not develop creativity when cooking, it is made too easy to cook every dish that comes to mind.

Another nice example concerns side dishes, when I started my experiment, rice (not grown in Germany), for example, was no longer an option. As an experiment, I experimented with barley, spelled and green spelled, i.e. older types of grain that have unfortunately been forgotten. Unfortunately, I say, because it's a damn shame, I was excited about the versatility and taste of these old varieties - why the hell did I eat rice that has to be transported around half the globe when there are regional things that taste much better? ?

To finally get to the point, the most underrated foods are those that are grown regionally, locally in their own country (preferably without the use of pesticides, etc.) and which have sometimes been unjustifiably forgotten.

You could also put it this way - due to the constantly available global range of foods of all kinds, one quickly loses sight of the good local foods or does not appreciate them enough.

The "smaller" selection led me to rethink recipes and definitely to a much more creative kitchen. For me this experiment was a complete success and I will definitely continue with it. As an interesting side effect, I notice after a few weeks that I feel better overall and I'm not alone with it, my wife feels the same way.

I still have to add, I write this as a pure hobby cook, that such an approach will not work in a professional environment is clear, but that's not the point here.

I am also not a climate activist and this is not about long, global transport routes and their necessity and the associated discussion, it is all about taste and quality.


----------



## MarcelNL

@KingShapton did you by any chance see the docu on 3Sat, where a reporter experiments on his body by eating food known to be pesticide laden for 2 weeks?

We're about to go pretty much the same route, as I'm done with 'stage' veggies that look great but lack taste but I'm going to allow some excursions into other ingredients to allow a wider variety every now and then...I think....


----------



## Lars

It's perfectly possible to find local, organic veggies that are not very nice. Just saying..


----------



## KingShapton

MarcelNL said:


> @KingShapton did you by any chance see the docu on 3Sat, where a reporter experiments on his body by eating food known to be pesticide laden for 2 weeks?
> 
> We're about to go pretty much the same route, as I'm done with 'stage' veggies that look great but lack taste but I'm going to allow some excursions into other ingredients to allow a wider variety every now and then...I think....


Among other things, this documentation. But also a number of other documentaries, some on Arte.

And of course, an exception here and there in order to be able to vary more, I also think that's perfectly fine. For me and my wife, it's about eating as well and healthily as possible, but in a way that doesn't neglect the fun of eating, cooking and taste.


----------



## KingShapton

Lars said:


> It's perfectly possible to find local, organic veggies that are not very nice. Just saying..


You will never find only very nice local organic veggies, common sense tells you that. And I wouldn't say something like that either, but thank you very much for your advice.


----------



## Lars

KingShapton said:


> You will never find only very nice local organic veggies, common sense tells you that. And I wouldn't say something like that either, but thank you very much for your advice.


You are welcome, but you did make a connection between local, organic produce and taste and quality.


----------



## KingShapton

Lars said:


> You are welcome, but you did make a connection between local, organic produce and taste and quality.


Yes, I have, too, but I have never presented it as universally valid and absolute, as you claimed.

I have reported on my personal experiences in my article. Simply as my contribution to the subject. I was completely far from attacking someone with it, but the impression that you feel attacked comes up. And I honestly don't get it.

So again, I was far from attacking anyone in general or you in particular, I just wanted to report about my experiences and impressions.

And I would also ask you not to attack me or to assume statements that I have not made that way. This kind of discussion and the level of discussion that is developing here just doesn't belong here. One of the things that I really appreciate about the KKF is the sensible and respectful interaction with one another and the quality of the exchange of views here.


----------



## Lars

KingShapton said:


> Yes, I have, too, but I have never presented it as universally valid and absolute, as you claimed.
> 
> I have reported on my personal experiences in my article. Simply as my contribution to the subject. I was completely far from attacking someone with it, but the impression that you feel attacked comes up. And I honestly don't get it.
> 
> So again, I was far from attacking anyone in general or you in particular, I just wanted to report about my experiences and impressions.
> 
> And I would also ask you not to attack me or to assume statements that I have not made that way. This kind of discussion and the level of discussion that is developing here just doesn't belong here. One of the things that I really appreciate about the KKF is the sensible and respectful interaction with one another and the quality of the exchange of views here.


Easy now.. I certainly didn't feel attacted, nor did I intend to attack anyone.


----------



## Delat

KingShapton said:


> I still have to add, I write this as a pure hobby cook, that such an approach will not work in a professional environment is clear, but that's not the point here.



Locally grown, farm to table has been a popular trend in restaurants for a while. It’s been really nice to see it gaining in popularity over the years, although unfortunately probably not affordable for people short on money and time.


----------



## Jovidah

I think part of the reason a lot of the 'organic, local' etc stuff is better is that the focus is more on quality instead of just producing the maximum amount quantity in the shortest amount of time; that race to the bottom is really what resulted in most stuff available in supermarkets being bland tasteless watery crap (at least here). But I have good experiences buying stuff at the market and restaurant wholesalers instead; much better quality for the same price or even less still exists.

When it comes to local... I have mixed feelings about it. From a sustainability perspective transporting stuff across the world can actually be less resource intensive than local production if a climate isn't suitable for it (greenhouses aren't exactly energy efficient). And the quality isn't always better... I'm always very skeptical when something is proudly being claimed as grown in the Netherlands... because sadly my experience is that that's rarely a mark of quality.


----------



## KingShapton

Jovidah said:


> I think part of the reason a lot of the 'organic, local' etc stuff is better is that the focus is more on quality instead of just producing the maximum amount quantity in the shortest amount of time; that race to the bottom is really what resulted in most stuff available in supermarkets being bland tasteless watery crap (at least here). But I have good experiences buying stuff at the market and restaurant wholesalers instead; much better quality for the same price or even less still exists.
> 
> When it comes to local... I have mixed feelings about it. From a sustainability perspective transporting stuff across the world can actually be less resource intensive than local production if a climate isn't suitable for it (greenhouses aren't exactly energy efficient). And the quality isn't always better... I'm always very skeptical when something is proudly being claimed as grown in the Netherlands... because sadly my experience is that that's rarely a mark of quality.


Of course, there is no guarantee that local products will always be of good quality. Here, too, you have to choose and look yourself. In general, I have had very good experiences with local products myself. But I also try to limit myself to my surrounding region if possible. Maybe I'm just lucky with my surrounding region.


----------



## MarcelNL

We are going to join a cooperative farming initiative, where a farmer works the farm, quality output is the goal and the methods are organic and sustainable. No middle man, one time buy in, weekly amount per mouth, we'll see ow it goes.


----------



## Jovidah

I wouldn't want to be a middleman in 2021. Seems like everyone's intent on cutting them out...


----------



## Bear

If nothing else we have a great supply of fresh produce here, at least for two months of the year.







I almost had to chip these out of the ice Friday


----------



## Jovidah

Don't worry, if global warming keeps going you'll be growing great tomatoes in just a few decades!


----------



## Delat

Bear said:


> If nothing else we have a great supply of fresh produce here, at least for two months of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I almost had to chip these out of the ice Friday



Wow those look great! By coincidence I’m actually having beet salad tonight too.


----------



## KingShapton

MarcelNL said:


> let's start this off with bread, I prefer slow fermented/cured sour dough;
> 
> View attachment 149853


To revive the topic here ..... fresh out of the oven and 100% homemade (by my wonderful wife). Homemade sourdough, flour, water and salt ... I'm already looking forward to breakfast!


----------



## KingShapton

A little more food for this thread ... nothing special, but homemade and incredibly tasty!

Homemade chili paste (ok, chili-garlic paste would be more correct), tastes incredibly good and is worlds better than anything that can be bought preprocessed in this direction!


----------



## Lars

Leftovers.


----------



## parbaked

Lars said:


> Leftovers.


Lars' leftovers....


----------



## Rangen

I suppose it may not be underrated, because so few have heard of the dish.

But who would want to eat coarse ground pork, mixed with salt and cornstarch and soy, formed into a flat patty, sprinkled with minced ginger and sugar, and topped with strips of stinky salted fish, then steamed?

Me, for one.

I've been making this dish for years. My wife, who is not normally one for exotic dishes, absolutely loves it. She told me it was the best thing ever...until we were in Hong Kong, and she had the version that they make at Yung Kee restaurant, and suddenly my version was not quite good enough. So I'm trying to up my game. I think the ground belly/loin mixture I was using before was not quite right, texturally, too bouncy, so today I boned and ground a pork shoulder, and I have high hopes.


----------



## Michi

Rangen said:


> But who would want to eat coarse ground pork, mixed with salt and cornstarch and soy, formed into a flat patty, sprinkled with minced ginger and sugar, and topped with strips of stinky salted fish, then steamed?
> 
> Me, for one.


Me too!  Could you post a recipe? That sounds really nice!


----------



## KingShapton

Rangen said:


> I suppose it may not be underrated, because so few have heard of the dish.
> 
> But who would want to eat coarse ground pork, mixed with salt and cornstarch and soy, formed into a flat patty, sprinkled with minced ginger and sugar, and topped with strips of stinky salted fish, then steamed?
> 
> Me, for one.
> 
> I've been making this dish for years. My wife, who is not normally one for exotic dishes, absolutely loves it. She told me it was the best thing ever...until we were in Hong Kong, and she had the version that they make at Yung Kee restaurant, and suddenly my version was not quite good enough. So I'm trying to up my game. I think the ground belly/loin mixture I was using before was not quite right, texturally, too bouncy, so today I boned and ground a pork shoulder, and I have high hopes.


The dish sounds really interesting and up to the point with strips of stinky salted fish you have my full attention - but then I'm out.

But only for reasons of personal likes and dislikes, regardless of that it sounds like a very interesting dish that is sure to be a taste explosion (if you like stinky salted fish). I wish you every success in improving your game, from your description I think that you are on the right track.


----------



## btbyrd

Does the dish have a name?


----------



## parbaked

btbyrd said:


> Does the dish have a name?


It's Cantonese....Jeng Yook Baeng (steamed meat cake).
In addition to the salted fish version, it can also be made with salted eggs or my favorite is shiitakes and Chinese sausage.
It can also be pan fried crisp like corned beef hash called Jaeng Yook Baeng.









Steamed Pork Cake with Salted Fish (咸鱼蒸肉饼)


Steamed Pork Cake with Salted Fish (Hom Yee Jeng Yook Baeng in Cantonese) is a dish my mother used to cook for us often growing up. It's a popular Cantonese dish among older Chinese folks who usually love the salted fish!




thewoksoflife.com


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

There are two kinds of people in this world...

Those who understand iceberg is the king of lettuce.

Those who are wrong.


----------



## parbaked

Rangen said:


> I've been making this dish for years. My wife, who is not normally one for exotic dishes, absolutely loves it. She told me it was the best thing ever...until we were in Hong Kong, and she had the version that they make at Yung Kee restaurant, and suddenly my version was not quite good enough. So I'm trying to up my game. I think the ground belly/loin mixture I was using before was not quite right, texturally, too bouncy, so today I boned and ground a pork shoulder, and I have high hopes.


Don't grind your pork!
You have to mince the pork with a cleaver or two to get the right texture.
I've tried using ground meat and it's just not the same...

I grew up in Hong Kong. We only ate BBQ at Yung Kee.
Their goose is legendary...


----------



## Jovidah

HumbleHomeCook said:


> There are two kinds of people in this world...
> 
> Those who understand iceberg is the king of lettuce.
> 
> Those who are wrong.


Wrong thread; all lettuce belongs in the overrated food thread. It's just crispy water.


----------



## Rangen

parbaked said:


> Don't grind your pork!
> You have to mince the pork with a cleaver or two to get the right texture.
> I've tried using ground meat and it's just not the same...
> 
> I grew up in Hong Kong. We only ate BBQ at Yung Kee.
> Their goose is legendary...



I believe you about not grinding. Heck,_ hamburgers_ are better if you hand-chop the meat instead of grinding. But I read those words after I had ground an entire pork shoulder, and lovingly vacuum-sealed 10 lbs of ground pork in 2 lb packages, with 4 of those packages going to the freezer.

The good news is that I used the coarse blade on my grinder, with everything very, very cold, so I think I wound up with something closer to hand-chopped than just buying ground pork.

The recipe you linked, I tried out tonight. It's superb. And my wife, who requested the dish, loved it without reservation. I am grateful for the link. I had searched my Chinese cookbooks, which occupy an entire book case, for a recipe for this dish, and found it only in the Thousand Recipe Chinese Cookbook, which tends toward very simple recipes. I liked their version a lot, but this is much better. I made only two changes in the direction of that recipe. The linked recipe called for 10 minutes of steaming, and after repeatedly checking and tasting, I thought it was better, with just the right amount of fish essence, at 20 minutes. Also I could not resist sprinkling 1 tsp of sugar over the patty, as the Thousand Recipe version called for, because I knew my wife would appreciate it.

The Yung Kee BBQ pork, with those beans and sauce underneath, is superb. So is the roast goose, though it's better on those upper floors where you need a member to get in. The Yung Kee dish that made the most lingering impression is a giant goose clay pot that includes livers and is the background picture on my cell phone. It blew me away.

The roast goose at Seventh Son and Fook Lam Moon seems comparable, and their other dishes better, so I don't make it to Yung Kee much these days, unless with someone who knows the place very well.


----------



## Rangen

Jovidah said:


> Wrong thread; all lettuce belongs in the overrated food thread. It's just crispy water.



I could dispense entirely with iceberg lettuce, were it not that it makes the perfect foil for those finely-chopped stir fry dishes that you wrap in a leaf of cold iceberg, and crunch down on to enjoy the contrasts in texture and heat.

I still mourn the loss of a Macau hotel restaurant, now out of business, that served an absolutely stunning pigeon in lettuce wrap. It's not surprising it went away; I was often the only patron, with 8 waiters lined up against the wall, watching me eat. But the dish was worth any self-consciousness I might have felt, and I kept going back for it.

Great Eastern in San Francisco serves a seafood in lettuce wrap that, while not achieving those heights, is very much worth ordering.


----------



## tomsch

100% agree that lettuce is simply a vesicle for delivering the flavors. My wife is GF because of her arthritis so we tend to use a ton of lettuce for dinner and lunch that includes steak wraps that can be pretty amazing.


----------



## spaceconvoy

tomsch said:


> 100% agree that lettuce is simply a vesicle for delivering the flavors.


You might say it's the original and most influential: the seminal vesicle


----------



## KingShapton

Smaller than expected ... a wholegrain power dwarf. Small but delicious!


----------



## scrappy

Fermented natto. The stuff drives me crazy. Every Westerner I know who has had it (not too many) has found it revolting. It seems it’s even fairly divisive in Japan, a bit like Marmite here in the UK. I would travel miles to eat natto. It is the food of the gods. I got so fed up trying to source it, I even ordered some specially cultivated natto beans from abroad so I could ferment my own.


----------



## Rangen

scrappy said:


> Fermented natto. The stuff drives me crazy. Every Westerner I know who has had it (not too many) has found it revolting. It seems it’s even fairly divisive in Japan, a bit like Marmite here in the UK. I would travel miles to eat natto. It is the food of the gods. I got so fed up trying to source it, I even ordered some specially cultivated natto beans from abroad so I could ferment my own.



Definitely intrigued. I've never had it. Never had the opportunity. I've enjoyed plenty of foods that people consider challenging, but they're really not that challenging. Stinky tofu and durian have a bad smell, but taste great. Tripe (all four kinds!) is just a texture food, not hard to like, you just have to be thinking about texture, because there isn't much flavor there, but there's great texture. Pork kidney, properly cooked, is just hands-down great, and people shy from the idea, not the reality. Heck, I've known people to shy from eating goat, and I am 100% positive they'd like young goat better than young lamb, if only they tried it. And Marmite/Vegemite are easy to like if you use them right, just a bit of character for your buttered toast.

Sounds like proper natto would be hard to source, though. If I ever get to Japan again, I'll have to make a point of trying it.


----------



## scrappy

Rangen said:


> Definitely intrigued. I've never had it. Never had the opportunity. I've enjoyed plenty of foods that people consider challenging, but they're really not that challenging. Stinky tofu and durian have a bad smell, but taste great. Tripe (all four kinds!) is just a texture food, not hard to like, you just have to be thinking about texture, because there isn't much flavor there, but there's great texture. Pork kidney, properly cooked, is just hands-down great, and people shy from the idea, not the reality. Heck, I've known people to shy from eating goat, and I am 100% positive they'd like young goat better than young lamb, if only they tried it. And Marmite/Vegemite are easy to like if you use them right, just a bit of character for your buttered toast.
> 
> Sounds like proper natto would be hard to source, though. If I ever get to Japan again, I'll have to make a point of trying it.


When I have visited South East Asia, durian has definitely been a highlight. Quite delicious. I can even tolerate the smell. It makes amazing ice cream, too.

I would definitely recommend trying natto. It has a very distinctive flavour, one that must be easy to dislike. Personally, I find it heavenly. Just don’t be put off by the slimy strands! They are a normal product of the fermentation process. I have come to love them. I usually eat the beans with a scattering of spring onions, a dab of Japanese mustard, and a splash of soy sauce. They also go well with rice or raw tuna.

I’m not sure why people aren’t keen on goat. Well, not here in the UK, at least. Yes, it can be tough, but not when slow-cooked; it’s delicious. Equally, rabbit and hare get no love. The other day, I thought I’d make fresh pappardelle with rabbit ragù, so I asked my local rural butcher if he had any rabbit. The answer was no, and he couldn’t order any either. He then offered to shoot me one, if he could find one without myxomatosis. I declined. Bleuuurgh!


----------



## Jovidah

Whenever I see natto it reminds me of something I forgot in my fridge for a few months. 

I tried goat but I wasn't a fan of the taste. You can find farmed rabbit here (tastes like chicken), but wild rabbit is rather uncommon unless you go to a specialist store.


----------



## scrappy

Jovidah said:


> Whenever I see natto it reminds me of something I forgot in my fridge for a few months.
> 
> I tried goat but I wasn't a fan of the taste. You can find farmed rabbit here (tastes like chicken), but wild rabbit is rather uncommon unless you go to a specialist store.


Something you forgot at the back of the fridge? Haha. Yes, a lot of people are put off by the appearance. If you can get past that, it’s so good. Because I love it so much, through positive association, I now love the way it looks.

Even farmed rabbit is difficult to find here. There was a time when rabbits hanging outside butchers were a fairly common sight. Not so much anymore. With the rise of the supermarket, the high street butcher is slowly disappearing. Fishmongers, sadly, feel like a thing of the past. I’ve just checked the website of every large supermarket in the UK, not one carries rabbit. Rabbit food, yes. Rabbit, no. I guess people regard them as pets more than anything else.


----------



## Jovidah

It's the same here. It doesn't help that a lot of butchers are also rather underwhelming, basically charging higher prices for stuff that's very comparable to what supermarkets do. There's still some quality butchers around, but usually the pricetag is there to match.
My solution is to buy pretty much all my meat at restaurant wholesalers. Good stuff for a good price.


----------



## scrappy

Jovidah said:


> It's the same here. It doesn't help that a lot of butchers are also rather underwhelming, basically charging higher prices for stuff that's very comparable to what supermarkets do. There's still some quality butchers around, but usually the pricetag is there to match.
> My solution is to buy pretty much all my meat at restaurant wholesalers. Good stuff for a good price.


I’ve never looked into restaurant wholesalers. Good suggestion. I’ll do some research. My only concern would be welfare assurance. I try to ensure that the meat I eat has been welfare-certified. For example, I am no longer prepared to eat chicken that has lived out its life in a space the size of a piece of A4 paper. Don’t get me wrong, I love meat, but I also love animals. The thought of them suffering makes me feel ill. With the exception of a twice-yearly visit to McDonalds - OK, I know - I really try to stick to this rule. And now the McPlant is a thing, I can hopefully swear off this weakness.



spaceconvoy said:


> You might say it's the original and most influential: the seminal vesicle


I see what you did there. Sounds like lettuce and cumin would go well together.


----------



## Jovidah

For fowl I generally go for label rouge. It's a French quality label and it has enoguh volume to still be affordable. Over here it's not hard to find.


----------



## MarcelNL

Goat Sateh, yumm...
Natto Sushi I had were yummy too, At one occasion I visited Japan I got 'tested' by my Japanese collegues and got the whole shebang of weird food thrown at me. I dare say that they were more revolted by the habit of drinking buttermilk when they visited our office than I was by whatever creepy crawler from the sea they brought in.


----------



## ACHiPo

scrappy said:


> Fermented natto. The stuff drives me crazy. Every Westerner I know who has had it (not too many) has found it revolting. It seems it’s even fairly divisive in Japan, a bit like Marmite here in the UK. I would travel miles to eat natto. It is the food of the gods. I got so fed up trying to source it, I even ordered some specially cultivated natto beans from abroad so I could ferment my own.


I've never had it, but it is very rich in vitamin K2, which has huge cardio and bone health benefits.


----------



## MarcelNL

If the smell has any correlation to health it must be great for you ;-) 
Münster cheese, Epoisse, Natto....


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> If the smell has any correlation to health it must be great for you ;-)
> Münster cheese, Epoisse, Natto....


There seems to be more than a grain of truth to that. It appears a long time ago man ate lots of spoiled foods which provided some benefits (and quite a few downsides!) to promoting a diverse gut microbiome. Stinky/bitter/sour is good (add apple cider vinegar to the list).


----------



## scrappy

MarcelNL said:


> Natto Sushi I had were yummy too,


Natto sushi? Strangely, I’ve never had it. I know I would love it. Easy enough to make, too.


ACHiPo said:


> I've never had it, but it is very rich in vitamin K2, which has huge cardio and bone health benefits.


I didn’t know that. It tastes like a superfood, if that is possible. I seriously recommend trying it.


MarcelNL said:


> If the smell has any correlation to health it must be great for you ;-)
> Münster cheese, Epoisse, Natto....


I’d never heard of Munster cheese. I had to look it up. I’m going to have to try some. I have a love-hate relationship with Epoisse. At the right temperature, it is delightful. If it gets too runny, though, I feel like I‘ve gone to hell and I’m eating brimstone


----------



## ethompson

MarcelNL said:


> I dare say that they were more revolted by the habit of drinking buttermilk when they visited our office than I was by whatever creepy crawler from the sea they brought in.


Speaking of which, buttermilk - especially the real stuff that is a byproduct of butter making - is terribly underrated both as an ingredient and beverage in its own right.


----------



## MarcelNL

the Natto Sushi I had were Temaki, rice, some veg and a glob of Natto.

Epoisse needs to be Affiné-d by a good cheese specialist, then brought to the right temperature for eating...less than a week after reaching it's prime it creates ammonia (many cheeses do) and goes bitter.
First time I ever ate Epoisse was in a restaurant, I ordered the cheese cart for desert and they brought it but the Epoisse was brought from the attic  If we have it everything in the fridge ends up tasting like Epoisse after 2 days so in winter it sits outside.


----------



## DitmasPork

scrappy said:


> Fermented natto. The stuff drives me crazy. Every Westerner I know who has had it (not too many) has found it revolting. It seems it’s even fairly divisive in Japan, a bit like Marmite here in the UK. I would travel miles to eat natto. It is the food of the gods. I got so fed up trying to source it, I even ordered some specially cultivated natto beans from abroad so I could ferment my own.



Love natto, an acquired taste for sure, grew up with the stuff so it's pretty normal food for me. Love it on hot rice!


----------



## DitmasPork

Fermented shrimp paste—aka harm ha. Sadly underrated in western kitchens, an awesome umami bomb, stinky as heck though.


----------



## scrappy

DitmasPork said:


> Fermented shrimp paste—aka harm ha. Sadly underrated in western kitchens, an awesome umami bomb, stinky as heck though.
> 
> View attachment 169223


Is that the same as shrimp paste? About three weeks ago, I found an out-of-date jar of shrimp paste in my fridge. I put it on my kitchen window sill to wash out and recycle. It’s still there. I just can’t face the smell. Lol.

EDIT: Yes, it is shrimp paste. Misread the post. It does add real depth of flavour to dishes, but I feel like the smell disrupts me on a cellular level every time I open a jar. Infernal.


----------



## DitmasPork

scrappy said:


> Is that the same as shrimp paste? About three weeks ago, I found an out-of-date jar of shrimp paste in my fridge. I put it on my kitchen window sill to wash out and recycle. It’s still there. I just can’t face the smell. Lol.



Hahahaha! Yeah, it's the greyish, stinky matter, ...smells like something died—but can do umami magic once cooked. Stir fried with Chinese water spinach is a Cantonese classic.


----------



## MarcelNL

an Umami bomb indeed, Trassi is quite similar! Same effect as sneaking in some Anchovy, but more POWERFUL!


----------



## DitmasPork

MarcelNL said:


> an Umami bomb indeed, Trassi is quite similar! Same effect as sneaking in some Anchovy, but more POWERFUL!



Awesome! I gotta track down a brick of trassi, I've never heard of it. Is kinda looks like belacan, which is Malaysian shrimp paste.


----------



## spaceconvoy

DitmasPork said:


> ...smells like something died—but can do umami magic once cooked.


Speaking of which, I think Asafetida (aka Hing powder or the very appropriately nicknamed Devil's Dung) is underrated. Smells horrible raw, but fried in oil it transforms into a warm comforting flavor that's similar but not quite like sauteed onion or garlic.

It's one of those small things that makes mediocre dahl or chana masala taste instantly more 'authentic'


----------



## MarcelNL

DitmasPork said:


> Awesome! I gotta track down a brick of trassi, I've never heard of it. Is kinda looks like belacan, which is Malaysian shrimp paste.


it probably is identical, with local nuances to flavor (I suspect)


----------



## ACHiPo

DitmasPork said:


> Hahahaha! Yeah, it's the greyish, stinky matter, ...smells like something died—but can do umami magic once cooked. Stir fried with Chinese water spinach is a Cantonese classic.


Sounds like fish sauce on steroids!


----------



## DitmasPork

ACHiPo said:


> Sounds like fish sauce on steroids!



Stinkier. Whereas fish sauce is often used straight from the bottle into dressings and uncooked sauces—shrimp past typically benefits from heat to temper its pungency. @lemeneid told me of an awesome Singaporean dish of chicken wings slathered with shrimp paste before cooking.

My fave shrimp paste dish is 'Harm Ha Pork with Ong Choi,' ...afraid to cook it for fear of neighbors complaining.


----------



## KingShapton

DitmasPork said:


> afraid to cook it for fear of neighbors complaining


----------



## MarcelNL

DitmasPork said:


> Stinkier. Whereas fish sauce is often used straight from the bottle into dressings and uncooked sauces—shrimp past typically benefits from heat to temper its pungency. @lemeneid told me of an awesome Singaporean dish of chicken wings slathered with shrimp paste before cooking.
> 
> My fave shrimp paste dish is 'Harm Ha Pork with Ong Choi,' ...afraid to cook it for fear of neighbors complaining.


@KingShapton ; don;t laugh!

@DitmasPork Do you live in my street on the other side of my neigbors perhaps?

A week or two ago I was cooing up some Indian food and was busy toasting spices when my neighbor rang the doorbell, and started to rant about cooking smells....our extraction hood vents outside so anything they may smell has to come in through windows or vents on their end, new houses brick and concrete, well insulated...


----------



## DitmasPork

MarcelNL said:


> @KingShapton ; don;t laugh!
> 
> @DitmasPork Do you live in my street on the other side of my neigbors perhaps?
> 
> A week or two ago I was cooing up some Indian food and was busy toasting spices when my neighbor rang the doorbell, and started to rant about cooking smells....our extraction hood vents outside so anything they may smell has to come in through windows or vents on their end, new houses brick and concrete, well insulated...



Hahahah. I live in a Brooklyn apartment—the hallway outside my door isn't well ventilated, therefore kitchen smells will probably live in the hallway for a while.


----------



## Greenbriel

scrappy said:


> Fermented natto. The stuff drives me crazy. Every Westerner I know who has had it (not too many) has found it revolting. It seems it’s even fairly divisive in Japan, a bit like Marmite here in the UK. I would travel miles to eat natto. It is the food of the gods. I got so fed up trying to source it, I even ordered some specially cultivated natto beans from abroad so I could ferment my own.


My Japanophile sister-in-law gave me some natto once. I'm definitely in the Westerner majority. Not for me! But Marmite is delicious (grew up in Manchester)!


----------



## scrappy

Some smells I can get used to. When I first started cooking with fish sauce, the smell and taste made me feel nauseous. Even a teaspoon of it would overpower any dish I cooked, so I halved the amount in any recipe. Now, some years later, I splash it on indiscriminately, even when it is uncalled for. Now I’m acclimatised, I adore the flavour. I think a Red Boat purchase helped. It is such a clean-tasting fish sauce. Though now, any fish sauce will do. In another couple of years, I’ll probably be injecting it.



MarcelNL said:


> Epoisse needs to be Affiné-d by a good cheese specialist, then brought to the right temperature for eating...less than a week after reaching it's prime it creates ammonia (many cheeses do) and goes bitter.


Thanks. That explains a lot. Initially, I really enjoyed Epoisse. I bought it with reasonable regularity. Then, on a couple of occasions, it smelled exactly like a public urinal in summer. Ammonia, basically. Now it makes sense. The cheeses must have been overripe. It’s a shame; I haven’t eaten Epoisse since. Bleuuurgh!


Greenbriel said:


> My Japanophile sister-in-law gave me some natto once. I'm definitely in the Westerner majority. Not for me! But Marmite is delicious (grew up in Manchester)!


I’m the other way round. I am crazy for natto but Marmite doesn’t do much for me. Not that I hate it. It just has to be spread very sparingly for me to even want to eat it.


----------



## rmrf

scrappy said:


> Is that the same as shrimp paste? About three weeks ago, I found an out-of-date jar of shrimp paste in my fridge. I put it on my kitchen window sill to wash out and recycle. It’s still there. I just can’t face the smell. Lol.
> 
> EDIT: Yes, it is shrimp paste. Misread the post. It does add real depth of flavour to dishes, but I feel like the smell disrupts me on a cellular level every time I open a jar. Infernal.



I LOVE shrimp paste (Haam ha or mam tom in vietnamese, I think?)! I never use it in chinese cooking, but its amazing in vietnamese. I actually adore the smell. The smell is a lot stronger than the taste, especially after you cook it. Actually, after you cook it, a lot of the lovely aromas fade unfortunately. Sometimes with old vegetables, I add a little shrimp paste at the last few minutes of cooking to cover the old veggie taste.



ACHiPo said:


> Sounds like fish sauce on steroids!





DitmasPork said:


> Stinkier. Whereas fish sauce is often used straight from the bottle into dressings and uncooked sauces—shrimp past typically benefits from heat to temper its pungency. @lemeneid told me of an awesome Singaporean dish of chicken wings slathered with shrimp paste before cooking.
> 
> My fave shrimp paste dish is 'Harm Ha Pork with Ong Choi,' ...afraid to cook it for fear of neighbors complaining.



There's a great vietnamese dish that uses uncooked shrimp paste as a dipping sauce. I think it is offal (organ meats) with shrimp paste dipping sauce. Eaten with plenty of herbs. Very delicious. It takes a few bites for your mouth to get accustomed to the flavor, but its really delicious.

My favorite shrimp paste dish is pork and turnip stew with shrimp paste. Fry a few teaspoons of shrimp paste with chili peppers and oil. Add cubed pork butt and fry for a little. Add 1/2 of your turnip and some water and coat, then add the rest of the turnip. You don't want to add too much water, this isn't a soup. Add fish sauce to taste and cook for 1-2 hrs. Serve with rice. Its amazing. One of my favorite dishes. It makes your home smell delicious for days. Some people don't really like the smell, however. I got a few complaints from neighbors and co-workers when I brought some to work for lunch about backed up sewage. 

If you've never had it before, I'd recommend not making it in the winter so you can open your windows in case you aren't as big of a fan as me. The delicious aroma tends to linger for days even if you do have good ventilation.


----------



## rmrf

scrappy said:


> Some smells I can get used to. When I first started cooking with fish sauce, the smell and taste made me feel nauseous. Even a teaspoon of it would overpower any dish I cooked, so I halved the amount in any recipe. Now, some years later, I splash it on indiscriminately, even when it is uncalled for. Now I’m acclimatised, I adore the flavour. I think a Red Boat purchase helped. It is such a clean-tasting fish sauce. Though now, any fish sauce will do. In another couple of years, I’ll probably be injecting it.


I have this problem with dashi powder. I add a teaspoon into stews and the smell makes me gag and I have to add extra vegetables to try and cover it up. Never had the problem with fish sauce or miso or home made dashi. Its weird and sad.



scrappy said:


> Thanks. That explains a lot. Initially, I really enjoyed Epoisse. I bought it with reasonable regularity. Then, on a couple of occasions, it smelled exactly like a public urinal in summer. Ammonia, basically. Now it makes sense. The cheeses must have been overripe. It’s a shame; I haven’t eaten Epoisse since. Bleuuurgh!


I'm rarely bugged by overripe Epoisse, but when I am I use it on pizza or grilled cheese sandwiches with other cheeses. Just enough epoisse that you can taste it.


----------



## DitmasPork

rmrf said:


> I LOVE shrimp paste (Haam ha or mam tom in vietnamese, I think?)! I never use it in chinese cooking, but its amazing in vietnamese. I actually adore the smell. The smell is a lot stronger than the taste, especially after you cook it. Actually, after you cook it, a lot of the lovely aromas fade unfortunately. Sometimes with old vegetables, I add a little shrimp paste at the last few minutes of cooking to cover the old veggie taste.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's a great vietnamese dish that uses uncooked shrimp paste as a dipping sauce. I think it is offal (organ meats) with shrimp paste dipping sauce. Eaten with plenty of herbs. Very delicious. It takes a few bites for your mouth to get accustomed to the flavor, but its really delicious.
> 
> My favorite shrimp paste dish is pork and turnip stew with shrimp paste. Fry a few teaspoons of shrimp paste with chili peppers and oil. Add cubed pork butt and fry for a little. Add 1/2 of your turnip and some water and coat, then add the rest of the turnip. You don't want to add too much water, this isn't a soup. Add fish sauce to taste and cook for 1-2 hrs. Serve with rice. Its amazing. One of my favorite dishes. It makes your home smell delicious for days. Some people don't really like the smell, however. I got a few complaints from neighbors and co-workers when I brought some to work for lunch about backed up sewage.
> 
> If you've never had it before, I'd recommend not making it in the winter so you can open your windows in case you aren't as big of a fan as me. The delicious aroma tends to linger for days even if you do have good ventilation.



The pork and turnip dish sounds great!

I have a jar of the Vietnamese stuff, it's mellower than the Cantonese shrimp paste—I prefer the Vietnamese one. Similar, but looser, chunkier, is Filipino Bagoong, which I've had as a condiment, added to stews (kare kare, etc.) at the table.


----------



## scrappy

rmrf said:


> If you've never had it before, I'd recommend not making it in the winter so you can open your windows


It sounds intriguing. I think I might like it. It’s not totally dissimilar to a dish I cook with daikon radish and fried tofu. A Japanese dish, it’s braised with ginger, mirin, sugar and soy. Anything with offal, apart from chicken, duck or goose liver is sadly a no-go for me. As a kid, I used to be fine with it, now, not so much.


rmrf said:


> I have this problem with dashi powder. I add a teaspoon into stews and the smell makes me gag and I have to add extra vegetables to try and cover it up. Never had the problem with fish sauce or miso or home made dashi. Its weird and sad.
> 
> I'm rarely bugged by overripe Epoisse, but when I am I use it on pizza or grilled cheese sandwiches with other cheeses. Just enough epoisse that you can taste it.



That’s strange that you don’t like dashi powder but you’re fine with homemade dashi. I love the stuff. That said, I’ve only ever tasted one dashi powder: Kayanoya. I order it on eBay and it ships from Japan. I find it almost indistinguishable from the dashi I make from scratch. it’s really good.

For pizza cheese, I’m a Gorgonzola piccante freak. I can’t get enough of it. I even eat the stuff with Digestives, a sweet-but-not-too, plain biscuit (cookie) from the UK. I know, I’m going to hell.


----------



## Rangen

Shrimp paste is awesome in Chinese cooking. I've used it to liven up chicken in clay pot, but my favorite use is in a Ken Hom recipe that has snap pea pods with fresh shrimp, dried shrimp, and shrimp paste. So it starts with the great synergy between peas and shrimp, and piles on by layering three very different expressions of shrimp flavor into the dish. 

I don't make it as often as I should, but that's only because it's hard to find truly fresh, not limp, not tired snap pea pods around here. Even in season.


----------



## Rangen

I do remember the first time I brought home Thai fish sauce. I opened it, and figured I must have gotten a bad bottle. A really bad bottle.

Edit: I think someone should bring back garum. It's time.


----------



## sumis

Rangen said:


> Edit: I think someone should bring back garum. It's time.




Smoked Mushroom Garum

.


----------



## Rangen

sumis said:


> Smoked Mushroom Garum



Thanks! I signed up to be notified when it's available again. And, as it turns out, there's actually a garum on the US Amazon site, called Flor de Garum. Made in Spain, and apparently created based on residue analysis from Pompeii.

Naturally, I ordered some.


----------



## MarcelNL

PLease let us know what you think of Garum, I have wondered for a while now how it would compare to the modern day equivalents...


----------



## sumis

Rangen said:


> Thanks! I signed up to be notified when it's available again. And, as it turns out, there's actually a garum on the US Amazon site, called Flor de Garum. Made in Spain, and apparently created based on residue analysis from Pompeii.
> 
> Naturally, I ordered some.



Gotta try the spanish stuff!

I got two bottles of Noma mushroom garum last week from the first batch, and I've already used up one! Stupid expensive, but also stupid tasty. Not funky though.

.


----------



## Rangen

sumis said:


> I got two bottles of Noma mushroom garum last week from the first batch, and I've already used up one! Stupid expensive, but also stupid tasty. Not funky though.



What did you use it with?


----------



## Michi

How does it compare to fish sauce?


----------



## sumis

Rangen said:


> What did you use it with?



Tried some improvised variants of their suggested recipes. Sauté mushrooms and then deglace with butter and garum will give a really intense mushroom flavour (surprise). Used it for pasta dishes and risotto. For a third of the price it would be a great everyday go-to umami enhancer. But I guess I could sell my second bottle for 60$ now 

.


----------



## sumis

Michi said:


> How does it compare to fish sauce?



It's not funky. It's more like an intense, reduced and smokey mushroom stock.

If anything, it has spurred me to try to make something similar myself.

I mean, it's really great and effective and yummy and all that, but it's not magic or any kind of game changer. It won't make a tasteless dish great. But I guess it will push certain things to a higher level if used right (by a competent cook).

.


----------



## Borealhiker

scrappy said:


> Fermented natto. The stuff drives me crazy. Every Westerner I know who has had it (not too many) has found it revolting. It seems it’s even fairly divisive in Japan, a bit like Marmite here in the UK. I would travel miles to eat natto. It is the food of the gods. I got so fed up trying to source it, I even ordered some specially cultivated natto beans from abroad so I could ferment my own.


Omg! For sure! I forgot about natto until I saw this. Back in the 90’s I tried hard to use it and like it. Don’t remember how i used it but I’m sure I had some recipes and guidance…… Don’t think I was revolted by it but I don’t think I liked it, maybe have to revisit it to see what’s up. Maybe Mitsuwa has it.


----------



## scrappy

Borealhiker said:


> Omg! For sure! I forgot about natto until I saw this. Back in the 90’s I tried hard to use it and like it. Don’t remember how i used it but I’m sure I had some recipes and guidance…… Don’t think I was revolted by it but I don’t think I liked it, maybe have to revisit it to see what’s up. Maybe Mitsuwa has it.


It’s definitely worth trying again. Some say it is an acquired taste, a taste many never a quite at all. If you’ve tried it quite a few times already and it didn’t click, I wouldn’t hold out too much hope that it would do so now, but you never know.


----------



## parbaked

Natto…I don’t like it but my Japanese wifey does so we always have some in the freezer.




Our local Japanese market has plenty to choose from…


----------



## MarcelNL

How I wish we had Japanese markets...not just for Natto.


----------



## Borealhiker

MarcelNL said:


> How I wish we had Japanese markets...not just for Natto.


Really? No Japanese markets in Netherlands? Any sort of big pan Asian markets? Jeez. lol, I know Dutch and Japanese cuisine are like polar opposites but man that’s crazy. Of course it’s really rare to find a Dutch or Dutch centric market here in the US. Pretty much all online. I made a Stamppot earlier this winter and couldn’t find the trad sausage…Rookworst?….so used Kielbasa.


----------



## Michi

After all this talk, I figured I had better try some natto.




It's nice, I do like it. Mild yeasty/salty flavour, with a yeasty/cheese smell. The texture is interesting, somewhat slippery, not unlike some dishes that include gelatine. The packet included two small sachets with soy sauce and mustard, which made this into a nice snack.

I'll definitely be buying this more often.


----------



## MarcelNL

Borealhiker said:


> Really? No Japanese markets in Netherlands? Any sort of big pan Asian markets? Jeez. lol, I know Dutch and Japanese cuisine are like polar opposites but man that’s crazy. Of course it’s really rare to find a Dutch or Dutch centric market here in the US. Pretty much all online. I made a Stamppot earlier this winter and couldn’t find the trad sausage…Rookworst?….so used Kielbasa.



There used to be at least one larger Japanese shop in Amsterdam, where there are a large number of Japanese multinationals with a EU HQ (Amstelveen). That one closed a few years ago, there are a few others but none near where I live and driving two hours for a package of natto is not my idea of a fun meal prep. Large Asian supermarkets we luckily have enough, those do carry Japanese products but they typically focus on more mainstream articles.


----------



## PNWanderlust

Maggi Soy Sauce, Dark

Probably my favorite ingredient to use. I use it in way too many things.


----------



## MarcelNL

Hmmm since I know how they make it I leave that stuff alone, Hydrolyzed (dissolved in Hydrochloric acid) what used t be soy leftovers is now wheat boiled and neutralized with NaOh and added MSG....leaves you with a boatload of salt and hydrolized protein and MSG. Nothing wrong with any of that yet I try to stay away from salt and MSg where I can.


----------



## PNWanderlust

MSG is safe.. it has been researched to not be harmful, since all it is, is salt+glutamic acid... Glutamic acid is naturally occurring in all kinds of food... like parmesan cheese (the real stuff), beef, pork, chicken, mushrooms are high too... Also... you need salt to live sooo? salt + glutamic acid = flavor.

Aji-No-Moto brand crystalized MSG is derived from sea kelp... it occurs organically.


----------



## MarcelNL

yeah I know, it's just the quantities that are added that leave me with a rash and palpitations. Sure we need salt, yet not anywhere near as much as we taking in of not being careful.


----------



## ch_br

HumbleHomeCook said:


> There are two kinds of people in this world...
> 
> Those who understand iceberg is the king of lettuce.
> 
> Those who are wrong.



In this line of thinking, does the wedge salad sit atop the throne of all salads?


----------



## Borealhiker

ch_br said:


> In this line of thinking, does the wedge salad sit atop the throne of all salads?


Well I‘ll say Caesar, wedge and Cobb… lol… all old school.  I’m old.


----------



## Rangen

Caesar Salad: A work of genius, when made as intended, egg yolks coating the lettuce and all, not "Caesar dressing." The one I had at K-Pauls decades ago lives on in my memory.

Wedge and Cobb: "I guess I wanted a salad. I'm just not sure I wanted one _this_ badly."


----------



## ch_br

Caesar.. To be a true hail Caesar.. MUST have anchovies in it..

Otherwise its an imposter in my book.

The anchovy is what historically made it so polarizing.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

My well used three crabs fish sauce. Almost out time to visit Chinatown.


----------



## Michi

Keith Sinclair said:


> My well used three crabs fish sauce. Almost out time to visit Chinatown.


I've tried that brand. It's nice, but my preferred one is Red Boat 40ºN. Worth giving a try. The flavour is more intense and complex than any other brand I tried. 40ºN contains anchovy and salt, nothing else. (No added corn syrup, fructose, water, or vegetable protein.)


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I'll check that out. The large bottles in Chinatown take a long time to use up thinking smaller amount container better.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Checked several places here carry it.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

underated? eggs.

i love getting a bowl of hot rice, layiing a fried egg on top and sprinking on some soysauce and nori flakes. it is my goto quick solo dinner.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Egg yolks used to get a bad rap. The yolk is packed with nutrients.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

When first tried miso didn't care for it. Now love it. Some vegetables didn't like as a kid enjoy as a senior. We eat lots of fresh veg.


----------



## jjlotti

Michi said:


> I've tried that brand. It's nice, but my preferred one is Red Boat 40ºN. Worth giving a try. The flavour is more intense and complex than any other brand I tried. 40ºN contains anchovy and salt, nothing else. (No added corn syrup, fructose, water, or vegetable protein.)


----------



## Keith Sinclair

When started eating more healthy started reading labels. Cut out most processed food 
and sugar lost weight blood sugar went back to normal as did cholesterol levels. 

All that crap put in most bottles like high fructose corn syrup, caramel coloring, msg, sugar in all forms does make a difference. Researched on line healthy oyster sauce Megachef from Thailand tops the list. It is quite a bit more expensive than highly processed cheap bottles from China. Went to Chinatown today they had many bottles of oyster sauce but none the premium Megachef. Ended up getting a 32oz vegetarian mushroom base with mostly healthy ingredients. I'll have to get the Megachef oyster sauce on line prices vary a lot 

Best price is eBay 17oz 25.00 free shipping. I've seen bottles 17oz over 50.00 + shipping. 

Michi turning me on to Redboat fish sauce looking for more quality sauce when making Chinese food dishes.


----------



## KingShapton

Keith Sinclair said:


> When started eating more healthy started reading labels. *Cut out most processed food*
> and sugar lost weight blood sugar went back to normal as did cholesterol levels.


That's the key! Exactly that!

I did exactly that 23 months ago and started paying much more attention to the quality of the food. And try to eat as little industrially produced food as possible.

As a result, I've lost over 113lb to date and it's still going down!

My complete blood counts are the best I've ever had in my life, despite all the health issues I'm having right now, my blood counts are those of a healthy young man.

And I continue to eat normally, the same amounts as before, so I'm not on a diet and it's still happening.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

That's my experience too. Not a big guy 5'9" but lost over 30# without even trying. Not starving at all since I do most the cooking Janice lost weight too. I love seafood we eat salads with grilled salmon flaked on top. And homemade salad dressing of coarse. 

Shrimp broccoli, mushrooms Chinese style.
We both like curries. Make with lots of vegetables cook shrimp with olive oil saffron butter & add to curry at serving time. Quality chicken is available I like thigh meat. It is worth it to pay little more to get quality ingredients. 
I like oysters she doesn't so get for myself.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

[Like to use saffron & other exotic spices in cooking. Saffron bought at store is usually poor quality. We would get tins at work from Spain that was good saffron. Couple years ago ordered Spanish saffron off Amazon just ordered again my third batch. If you like to use saffron it's the way to go.


----------



## MarcelNL

Same goes for peppercorns, since I found a good source for fresh pepper in many varieties I consider myself an addict!


----------



## rmrf

Keith Sinclair said:


> When started eating more healthy started reading labels. Cut out most processed food
> and sugar lost weight blood sugar went back to normal as did cholesterol levels.
> 
> All that crap put in most bottles like high fructose corn syrup, caramel coloring, msg, sugar in all forms does make a difference. Researched on line healthy oyster sauce Megachef from Thailand tops the list. It is quite a bit more expensive than highly processed cheap bottles from China. Went to Chinatown today they had many bottles of oyster sauce but none the premium Megachef. Ended up getting a 32oz vegetarian mushroom base with mostly healthy ingredients. I'll have to get the Megachef oyster sauce on line prices vary a lot
> 
> Best price is eBay 17oz 25.00 free shipping. I've seen bottles 17oz over 50.00 + shipping.
> 
> Michi turning me on to Redboat fish sauce looking for more quality sauce when making Chinese food dishes.



Redboat is great, but for me it doesn't replace 3crabs. 3crabs is a lot harsher which for me makes it better for cooking. Redboat for me is a great finisher on warm or cold dishes. I add redboat to pretty much any non-eastern dish that needs a little kick. Another option you can look into is redboat salt. I mix it with kosher salt for dry rubs.

If you need a replacement for dark soy, you can mix normal soy and vietnamese carmel water (sugar, cooked to dark brown, almost burned carmel, add water and mix). You can then tune how much sugar you want to use in a dish.

I haven't found a way to make oyster sauce yet, but you can make XO sauce which is like a "fancy" oyster sauce. Woks of life has a complicated recipe. I tried it once but didn't like the flavor. The scallops and shrimp made it too sweet for me, but then again oyster sauce is always too sweet for me. I prefer making hot oil with very little oil (I use refined olive), a ridiculous amount of garlic, and lots of fish sauce. This gets you something like lao gan ma sauce hot sauce, but doesn't give me stomach problems. Its very easy to make. You could probably add some ham and dried, soaked, minced seafood products to get your way to oyster sauce without all the work.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

My gripe is all the additives put in sauces. Want to find alternative to cheap oyster sauce. loaded with sugar & corn syrup. Refined sugar in many forms plays havoc on body. Most sugar substitutes are bad too.There are so many healthy spices like garlic & ginger you can make tasty meals cutting out sugar completely. Get enough in fructose eating whole fresh fruit & frozen fruit for veg. Protein smoothies. Megachef oyster doesn't have all those added ingredients it is cured with salt in wood barrels.

I always liked three crabs but after turned around unfavorable blood work cutting out almost all processed food knew that my Lee Kum Kee's oyster sauce had to go. Ordered Redboat fish sauce from Amazon. Haven't got it yet. Use fish sauce in small amounts just to add that flavor touch. Make a lot more food from scratch these days. Have figured how to make awesome steamed fish with out using that sweet soy sauce they sell for fish. Sugar is as addicting as cocaine. Food co. know this that's why they push all that sugar on kids get them addicted early. Many people don't think food is good unless has refined sugar in it. 

Sugar was consumed by the rich in Europe and they paid for it health wise. After couple hundred years of slave labor growing sugar cane. In very recent time last 60 years sugar consumption has gone way up esp. in America, but elsewhere as well. It is directly related to quite a few medical conditions. Tobacco Co. Lied when said nicotine not addictive and smoking doesn't cause cancer. Many major food co. just want to sell their products. They aren't paying the medical cost down the line.

Sorry for the rant


----------



## rmrf

Keith Sinclair said:


> Sorry for the rant


Haha, you're preaching to the choir. I'm extra biased because I don't particularly like the taste of sugar / it gives me a headache. Sometimes I feel like one of those cult de-programmers when I talk to people about sugar. Then I realize that I'm closer to a cult member than a cult de-programmer 



Keith Sinclair said:


> My gripe is all the additives put in sauces. Want to find alternative to cheap oyster sauce. loaded with sugar & corn syrup. Refined sugar in many forms plays havoc on body. Most sugar substitutes are bad too.There are so many healthy spices like garlic & ginger you can make tasty meals cutting out sugar completely. Get enough in fructose eating whole fresh fruit & frozen fruit for veg. Protein smoothies. Megachef oyster doesn't have all those added ingredients it is cured with salt in wood barrels.


I'll have to keep an eye out for megachef oyster sauce. I try to make my own sauces whenever possible because I have trust issues (sugar, oil quality, random additives) with a lot of these sauces. I had to stop eating Lao Gan Ma chilli sauce because it gave me stomach pain and various other "downstream" issues. Either it was the oil or other additives.



Keith Sinclair said:


> I always liked three crabs but after turned around unfavorable blood work cutting out almost all processed food knew that my Lee Kum Kee's oyster sauce had to go. Ordered Redboat fish sauce from Amazon. Haven't got it yet. Use fish sauce in small amounts just to add that flavor touch. Make a lot more food from scratch these days. Have figured how to make awesome steamed fish with out using that sweet soy sauce they sell for fish. Sugar is as addicting as cocaine. Food co. know this that's why they push all that sugar on kids get them addicted early. Many people don't think food is good unless has refined sugar in it.


Redboat is great. I'm definitely a fan and its almost certainly cleaner than 3crabs. Maybe I should try using it in more things when I run out of my other fish sauces. I hope you bought a large bottle; I remember amazon was selling in by the liter. It was a lot cheaper. 

I'm jealous of your fish; I can't get good enough quality fish for steaming (the price you pay for living 100s of miles from the ocean) so I broil instead. I also really like jullienned green onions with asian style fish. I keep a vegetable cleaver just for that function


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Believe got the 17oz bottle my 3 crabs is 27oz that takes too long to use up.


----------



## Borealhiker

Michi said:


> I've tried that brand. It's nice, but my preferred one is Red Boat 40ºN. Worth giving a try. The flavour is more intense and complex than any other brand I tried. 40ºN contains anchovy and salt, nothing else. (No added corn syrup, fructose, water, or vegetable protein.)


I’m a long time three crabs user. But yesterday I picked up a bottle of Red Boat. I’m familiar with it and have used it in the past but always stuck with the 3 ’s. But I have to say RB is a lot! cleaner and fresher tasting. 3  really funky. RB has a nice clean, intense anchovy flavor. But you really taste the salt as well.


----------



## Borealhiker

Keith Sinclair said:


> Believe got the 17oz bottle my 3 crabs is 27oz that takes too long to use up.


Agree. I haven’t been cooking Vietnamese or Thai very much. Just using splashes here and there to umami up other kinds of foods. Which is why I bought a new smaller Red Boat….. lol my 3  ’s had a 2014 use by date. Not sure how that happened cuz I know I have bought fish sauce in the last 8 years


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I thought a year was long time. Put a splash in many dishes I make. Still takes about a year to go through 27oz. My better half used to say your going to put that stuff in it. Now she doesn't say anything funky smell but a little 3 mixed in gives it fermentation umami


----------



## rmrf

Borealhiker said:


> Agree. I haven’t been cooking Vietnamese or Thai very much. Just using splashes here and there to umami up other kinds of foods. Which is why I bought a new smaller Red Boat….. lol my 3  ’s had a 2014 use by date. Not sure how that happened cuz I know I have bought fish sauce in the last 8 years


If you want to use up more fish sauce...

Marinades for meat (lamb + fish sauce is a fun play of lamb and anchovies which is classic south of france dish). I usually use squid or 3crab here for cost reasons but redboat would be delicious. 


Any kind of meat stews benefit from umami. I like beef stew with a good squirt of fish sauce. I usually add miso and fish sauce when I want to up the umami. I like it better than powdered dashi, at least the cheap stuff.


Salad dressings can often use a teaspoon or so.


If your cooked veggies are a little old, hot pepper, fish sauce, and scotch/whisky will make them better. I can't drink much scotch anymore, so I end up using laphroaig. Cognac is too smooth. I used to use cutty sark.


Mix it with soy sauce to add a misc asian feel to your food (or just a thai feel...). I like 1 part soy, 1 part fish sauce, 1 part maggi. I often leave some on the table in a squeeze bottle.


You could try it on pasta. I think french, german, or swiss Maggi is significantly better than fish sauce on pasta, but fish sauce + soy isn't bad. Some people say fish sauce was the original choice for garlic noodles.


Sandwiches benefit from a hit of umami, particularly if there's salad or pickled something in the sandwich. Maggi is superior in my opinion (you're just making a banh mi) but redboat isn't bad. 


If you need a dipping sauce for dumplings or ravioli/pelmeni, I like polish maggi, but fish sauce + soy is a better match than just soy. I like it better than browned butter for pelmeni.


If you make sauerkraut, adding fish sauce instead of salt gives a wonderful flavor. Thats how I used up an entire bottle of 3crab. 


Fried rice


----------



## Borealhiker

rmrf said:


> If you want to use up more fish sauce...
> 
> Marinades for meat (lamb + fish sauce is a fun play of lamb and anchovies which is classic south of france dish). I usually use squid or 3crab here for cost reasons but redboat would be delicious.
> 
> 
> Any kind of meat stews benefit from umami. I like beef stew with a good squirt of fish sauce. I usually add miso and fish sauce when I want to up the umami. I like it better than powdered dashi, at least the cheap stuff.
> 
> 
> Salad dressings can often use a teaspoon or so.
> 
> 
> If your cooked veggies are a little old, hot pepper, fish sauce, and scotch/whisky will make them better. I can't drink much scotch anymore, so I end up using laphroaig. Cognac is too smooth. I used to use cutty sark.
> 
> 
> Mix it with soy sauce to add a misc asian feel to your food (or just a thai feel...). I like 1 part soy, 1 part fish sauce, 1 part maggi. I often leave some on the table in a squeeze bottle.
> 
> 
> You could try it on pasta. I think french, german, or swiss Maggi is significantly better than fish sauce on pasta, but fish sauce + soy isn't bad. Some people say fish sauce was the original choice for garlic noodles.
> 
> 
> Sandwiches benefit from a hit of umami, particularly if there's salad or pickled something in the sandwich. Maggi is superior in my opinion (you're just making a banh mi) but redboat isn't bad.
> 
> 
> If you need a dipping sauce for dumplings or ravioli/pelmeni, I like polish maggi, but fish sauce + soy is a better match than just soy. I like it better than browned butter for pelmeni.
> 
> 
> If you make sauerkraut, adding fish sauce instead of salt gives a wonderful flavor. Thats how I used up an entire bottle of 3crab.
> 
> 
> Fried rice


#’s 2, 5,8 and 10 ……especially 10……yep to those. Sauerkraut one sounds interestingly weird but yeah I can see that. Pasta….ehhh if I’m gonna do that it’s going to be Thai or Vietnamese/ SE Asian noodles… but … I’ll give it a try.


----------



## rmrf

Borealhiker said:


> #’s 2, 5,8 and 10 ……especially 10……yep to those. Sauerkraut one sounds interestingly weird but yeah I can see that. Pasta….ehhh if I’m gonna do that it’s going to be Thai or Vietnamese/ SE Asian noodles… but … I’ll give it a try.


 Pasta is better with Maggi imo (unless you're doing pad thai), but lots of people swear by an oyster + soy + fish sauce mixture with lots of butter and garlic (I use like, 6 cloves / lb dry pasta). It is a vietnamese recipe, but I eat it with western foods a lot. I use just Maggi + garlic + evoo. Add a little fresh parsley or sauteed mushrooms and serve with chicken thighs or pork chops. For Maggi, I usually add like 1-2 teaspoons / lb of pasta, just enough to color the noodles. You can always add more but once you add too much it becomes too asian for a western meal or too salty. Sometimes I use a 1/4 cup of pasta water to mix the maggi (fish sauce) into so it distributes more evenly.

Sauerkraut isn't my idea; its basically how to make kimchi minus hot peppers and probably sugar. I was just super lazy and poured in the fish sauce and called it a day.

Fried rice with fish sauce is definitely a winner. Don't sleep on the salad / sandwich


----------



## KingShapton

Keith Sinclair said:


> Refined sugar in many forms plays havoc on body. Most sugar substitutes are bad too.There are so many healthy spices like garlic & ginger you can make tasty meals cutting out sugar completely. Get enough in fructose eating whole fresh fruit & frozen fruit for veg. Protein smoothies.







Keith Sinclair said:


> Make a lot more food from scratch these days.


Exactly, that's the way! 

The trick for me was that I became aware of what negative effects sugar and industrially pre-processed foods do to my body. Once you've figured that out, it's easy to switch.

And if you notice after a short time that you feel better, then you could kick yourself in the butt for not doing it sooner!




Keith Sinclair said:


> Sugar is as addicting as cocaine.


I totally agree with that! The first week I changed my diet was tough, and it was only then that I realized how bad sugar withdrawal can be. But after a good week, the withdrawal wears off.

And my wife felt the same way...we both had a lot of "fun" in the first week - withdrawal makes you really irritable! Thank god that we both have a very good and stable relationship.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Mrf are you referring to Vietnamese sandwich with french roll bread? Daikon carrots salad with whatever meat you want. I like the lemongrass chicken with fish sauce dressing on the salad. Warm french roll. 

King Shapton
Cherry Garcia ice creme & oatmeal raisin cookies took a while to get over.


----------



## rmrf

Keith Sinclair said:


> Mrf are you referring to Vietnamese sandwich with french roll bread? Daikon carrots salad with whatever meat you want. I like the lemongrass chicken with fish sauce dressing on the salad. Warm french roll.


<rant>
Technically yes, but most of those aren't strictly necessary for a Banh Mi (vietnamese sandwich). (technically speaking, banh mi refers to the type of bread...). 

From a loose interpretation, I think all you officially need for a "Banh Mi" sandwich is 1) bread 2) some sort of crunchy "pickle" 3) some sort of herb 4) some sort of filling 5) maggi or fish sauce on the bread.

The Maggi or fish sauce imo gives the sandwich its distinctive taste. Here are two examples of sandwiches that fit that description but that few would define as "banh mi".



I saw someone in NYC make a pastrami on rye sandwich with herbs (maybe sprouts?), quick pickles, and fish sauce on the bread (maybe mixed with mustard). I'd call that a banh mi, not a pastrami sandwich.
Pan Bagnat (french tuna sandwich). Technically, you're supposed to use tuna and anchovies, but I love anchovies too much to put them in a sandwich. I want to see them. 

My bastardized version (that more resembles banh mi) is I make a salad from kale and watermelon radish, and tomatoes. Dress it in a mustard, red wine vinegar, fish sauce (or maggi) dressing. Spread the extra on a very dry (week old for me...) toasted baguette. Fry a few eggs hard, break the yolks halfway. Assemble the sandwich, eggs on the bottom, then 2 cans of sardines, and top with the salad. Wrap, press for an hour or so, serve with rose.

Technically, I would define both those sandwiches as Banh Mi, as fish sauce or Maggi is a highly atypical sandwich ingredient. However, neither have the prototypical wheat/rice flour blend soft french inspired vietnamese bread or the characteristic carrot / daikon pickles. I also think cilantro or another hardy herb is necessary to strictly define Banh Mi, but I've had enough Banh Mi's without that too. 

Anyways, its delicious no matter its name. More so if you get better bread than banh mi....
</rant>


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Since we eat a lot of broccoli for health benefits 
Like Chinese style with broccoli mushrooms lots of fresh ginger & garlic. Oyster & fish sauce. Usually use 21-25 shrimp that cook in a little olive oil & butter. Add last minute with oil butter.
Don't like overcooked shrimp at all. This was first time used upgraded sauces no high fructose corn syrup msg, & all the other unhealthy crap in highly processed Chinese sauces. I really like the Megachef oyster sauce.
Oysters are smoked over hardwood to give a deep rich flavor. Simmered with small amount of sugar & salt. Cornstarch to thicken. It cost more than other oyster sauces it actually has oyster flavor imo worth extra cost 22.00 for 21.2 oz. The red boat only has anchovies & sea
salt. Both are intense flavors. Since I use no sugar & little salt in cooking watered down the sauce so not too salty. Served over rice. Janice said it tasted good that's what matters.


----------



## MarcelNL

reading labels when buying Asian stuff (and checking sell by dates) is paramount, I recently needed fresh oystersauce (somehow the use by date was 2 years ago) and did some label comparing and was shocked by how much the list of ingredients differs and by how much the actual Oyster content differs.


----------



## KingShapton

Keith Sinclair said:


> Since we eat a lot of broccoli for health benefits
> Like Chinese style with broccoli mushrooms lots of fresh ginger & garlic. Oyster & fish sauce. Usually use 21-25 shrimp that cook in a little olive oil & butter. Add last minute with oil butter.
> Don't like overcooked shrimp at all. This was first time used upgraded sauces no high fructose corn syrup msg, & all the other unhealthy crap in highly processed Chinese sauces. I really like the Megachef oyster sauce.
> Oysters are smoked over hardwood to give a deep rich flavor. Simmered with small amount of sugar & salt. Cornstarch to thicken. It cost more than other oyster sauces it actually has oyster flavor imo worth extra cost 22.00 for 21.2 oz. The red boat only has anchovies & sea
> salt. Both are intense flavors. Since I use no sugar & little salt in cooking watered down the sauce so not too salty. Served over rice. Janice said it tasted good that's what matters.
> View attachment 176114


Ok you did it - I swallow the hook!

I just checked the prices of Megachef sauces in Germany, I'm totally fine with that.

Have you also had experience with Megachef's soy sauce and fish sauce?

I really like that there are no artificial additives, that's exactly what I value more and more.


----------



## Michi

KingShapton said:


> I really like that there are no artificial additives, that's exactly what I value more and more.


Any fish sauce with nothing but anchovies and salt will be better than any fish sauce that has "other stuff" in it.


----------



## Terryy

I think that we should pay more attention to parsley. I noticed that parsley gives to dishes unique taste, which I can't describe. My mom often put it almost in every dish; when I grew up, I never thought why mom's food was special. Then I asked her and I can't stop adding it everywhere, so like it


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Cilantro is called Chinese parsley here. People either love or hate it. Asians & Latins use it a lot. Great in guacamole.


----------



## MarcelNL

did anyone mention GOOD quality canned tomatoes? I find the difference between 'brands' staggering, from soury thin watery goo to sweet and rich Umami bombs. My fave are the Mutti cherry tomatoes....(for taste and also because Mutti fights slave labor in the fields, FWIW)


----------



## sumis

MarcelNL said:


> did anyone mention GOOD quality canned tomatoes? I find the difference between 'brands' staggering, from soury thin watery goo to sweet and rich Umami bombs. My fave are the Mutti cherry tomatoes....(for taste and also because Mutti fights slave labor in the fields, FWIW)



+1

i like Mutti cherry cans: good taste, not really expensive, can be found everywhere.
hard to beat for convenience-price-taste ratio.
with that said there are very good options in abundance.

.


----------



## M1k3

Keith Sinclair said:


> Cilantro is called Chinese parsley here. People either love or hate it. Asians & Latins use it a lot. Great in guacamole.


Stems > leaves for flavor


----------



## MarcelNL

The Italian place where you don't eat 'Italian' food


Like everywhere in Italy, Lake Trasimeno, in Umbria, has a rich food tradition. But it's one that's far from what outsiders might consider Italian food thanks to traditions dating back 2,500 years.




edition.cnn.com




Just reminded me of the best holiday experience ever, roaming Umbrie and sampling local food made today like they have been doing for centuries. Underrated food: Umbrian cuisine 
From the small Castellucio lentils to the truffles (Urbani is located there), to slow roasted Porchetta (you order a serving and they it it straight from the whole pig on the grill), Fagioli, Pappa di Brodi etc etc..


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## Naftoor

Unfortunate things happen when you read a thread while mildly tipsy and forget to check that megachef doesn’t only make oyster sauce


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## boomchakabowwow

you can use fish sauce anywhere you would normally add chopped up anchovies. maybe not a Ceasars Salad where you like to see actual anchovies.


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## MarcelNL

funny I just ordered Megachef Oystersauce too.


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## Naftoor

MarcelNL said:


> funny I just ordered Megachef Oystersauce too.



I hope you learn from my error and actually order oyster sauce. Meanwhile I need to come up with an explanation for why we have 50oz of fish sauce


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## chefwp

Keith Sinclair said:


> Cilantro is called Chinese parsley here. People either love or hate it. Asians & Latins use it a lot. Great in guacamole.


Like the scientist interviewed in this interesting piece, I wasn't too crazy about cilantro when I first encountered it, now I relish it and use it often.








Cilantro Haters, It’s Not Your Fault (Published 2010)


Why an herb loved by much of the world is reviled by a loud minority.




www.nytimes.com


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## MarcelNL

I used to hate it, since like 10 years I love Cilantro


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## parbaked

boomchakabowwow said:


> you can use fish sauce anywhere you would normally add chopped up anchovies. maybe not a Ceasars Salad where you like to see actual anchovies.


I make a faux Caesar dressing with Red Boat fish sauce, lemon, mayo, olive oil and parmigiana. It works, especially with the grated cheese…
If I include actual anchovies, I use boquerones, which I wouldn’t use in the dressing.


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## MarcelNL

I managed to order the Oystersauce, you got me thinking I might have read the label wrong too..


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## jjlotti

M1k3 said:


> Stems > leaves for flavor


And the flowers(really of any herb) are the cherry on top! Been enjoying the most delicious purple chive flowers and the oregano is starting to bloom here in Virginia.... Can't wait!


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## BillHanna

jjlotti said:


> And the flowers(really of any herb) are the cherry on top! Been enjoying the most delicious purple chive flowers and the oregano is starting to bloom here in Virginia.... Can't wait!


My son has some cilantro that flowered.

"Dad. Can I EAT the flowers?"

Go for it.

"It's good! We should put them on something!"

But he won't eat the crust on bread.


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## Lars

Brown food


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## jjlotti

I just don't make pizza when kids are around....same ones I see eating a crap ton of bread, are chucking the crust right in the can. Don't try to reason either just order papa johns or some other pie that's best in the trash anyway


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## MarcelNL

I beg to differ, our 6 year old LOVES a good pizza and eats it crust and all and nowadays refuses to eat pizza chain stuff.


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## jjlotti

MarcelNL said:


> I beg to differ, our 6 year old LOVES a good pizza and eats it crust and all and nowadays refuses to eat pizza chain stuff.


My kids too.....like the had a choice


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## Jovidah

I used to be the kind of person eating other people's crusts... suits me just fine if they're skipping on them.


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## MarcelNL

Jovidah said:


> I used to be the kind of person eating other people's crusts... suits me just fine if they're skipping on them.


If I hit the dough and baking just right I'm that person too! (especially after long low temp proofing)


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## tomsch

When I make pizza at home I tend to risk take and push the sauce and toppings as close to the edge as possible. Sometimes that means melted cheese or whatever I'm topping with over the side but that's OK. That way there is not much of the crust left to worry about


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## BillHanna

@tomsch on my way


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## ch_br

Some may call me crazy, but RAW sliced peppers are underrated...

I'm talking just slice off a piece of a Jalapeno, Serrano, or Thai Chili and eat it.

OR put it on top of cheese, cheese & meat, tomatoes, cucumbers, or various types of fruit.


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## rmrf

ch_br said:


> Some may call me crazy, but RAW sliced peppers are underrated...
> 
> I'm talking just slice off a piece of a Jalapeno, Serrano, or Thai Chili and eat it.
> 
> OR put it on top of cheese, cheese & meat, tomatoes, cucumbers, or various types of fruit.


When I eat Vietnamese (soup, sandwiches, or really anything), I like a little bowl of chopped chili peppers as garnish. Its only a half step from the conventional dipping sauce (add fish sauce and citrus). Sometimes I do the same with Mexican. Its a different flavor than hot sauce.


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## ch_br

rmrf said:


> When I eat Vietnamese (soup, sandwiches, or really anything), I like a little bowl of chopped chili peppers as garnish. Its only a half step from the conventional dipping sauce (add fish sauce and citrus). Sometimes I do the same with Mexican. Its a different flavor than hot sauce.



^^^^ That's what I'm talking about baby!

When we make Korean BBQ we mix raw sliced garlic and sliced of jalepeno in Gochujang and put that on peralta leaf and wrap meat and onion in that with a bit of rice...

Lil slice of heaven.

Agreed, the flavor of fresh cut chilis is great.


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## zizirex

Back home, I used to eat a bunch of fried stuff (tofu and other fritters) with Thai chilli on the side.
you eat one bite of food and follow up with the chilli (either you eat the whole thing or half of it). 
since it's small you don't need to cut it.


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## Keith Sinclair

Like to add kim chee to miso ramen.


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## Pisau

zizirex said:


> Back home, I used to eat a bunch of fried stuff (tofu and other fritters) with Thai chilli on the side.
> you eat one bite of food and follow up with the chilli (either you eat the whole thing or half of it).
> since it's small you don't need to cut it.



Indonesians love fried stuff so much whenever there's a cooking oil price hike they riot 

You can have almost everything from a typical fritter street vendor there, banana, tofu, tempeh, vermicelli spring roll, sweet potato, mixed veggies like a mini okonomiyaki, and stuff I can't remember, but I reckoned the best was the deep fried breadfruit. It was bloody amazing. Elvis would've stuck there forever lol ... Maybe he did

Anyway @zizirex .... I saw your dabu-dabu _lilang_ on insta. Looking good mate! My missus said that dabu-dabu means sambal, but lilang means sliced with knife, thus roughly chopped salsa. Thus dabu-dabu rica = sambal chili. Dabu-dabu lilang = spicy salsa, more apropos to kitchen knife nerds.

Back on topic: Fish on charcoal + the above salsa + kecap manis + steaming hot jasmine rice might be one of the most underrated foods ever.


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## MarcelNL

fresh sardines grilled charcoal makes you think you're in heaven and wonder why everyone chases the more mundane species


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## MarcelNL

tai chillies, raw on the side... WOW...

I vividly remember that I took a heaped teaspoon of sambal at the home of a friend originating from the Moluk Islands....it was not the store bought red salty paste but home made sambal....


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## Keith Sinclair

Eating Raw chili's used as condiment can spice up a dish. Just eating a chili is more for hard core. If in your culture perhaps get used to it. I've seen chili eating contest where they keep going up in hotness levels.


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## ch_br

Keith Sinclair said:


> Eating Raw chili's used as condiment can spice up a dish. Just eating a chili is more for hard core. If in your culture perhaps get used to it. I've seen chili eating contest where they keep going up in hotness levels.





I don't find hot, for the sake of hot, enjoyable. I don't see the point in that machismo, everyone loses on the back end to that battle-- literally! 

Most of the chilis I enjoy are of a much more mild variety. When you look at the scoville scale Jalepenos and Serranos are pretty low.

But they have particularly great flavor. My favorite is Serrano.

When I use Thai, I essentially de-seed 80% since I love the peppers taste, just not an uncomfortable belly full of seeds, lol.

Plus heat so high that it masks the foods overall flavor nuances is a hard pass for me.


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## ch_br

ch_br said:


> When we make Korean BBQ we mix raw sliced garlic and sliced of jalepeno in Gochujang and put that on peralta leaf and wrap meat and onion in that with a bit of rice...
> 
> Lil slice of heaven.


Edit: *Perilla* leaf.. Not peralta.

For some reason I tend to mix that up... My bad

Doh!


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## Keith Sinclair

Yes Jalapenos & Serrano are great tasting peppers. Mexican Verde sauces are some of my favorites if made by Mexicans who can nail it.


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## Keith Sinclair

I make chili water using Hawaiian peppers that are hot. Mash peppers, garlic, Hawaiian sea salt with stone mortar & pesto. Boil vinegar and water pour over mash store in sterilized glass bottles. I use beer bottles with the swing ceramic cap. Let sit in sun couple days to ferment than refrigerate. Used as condiment pour on food. Esp. good on Hawaiian food like Kalua pork, lau lau, chicken long rice. Broke da mouth


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