# tough time with VG10



## zeaderan (Jul 1, 2020)

Does anyone else have trouble getting VG10 sharp? I've got a 150 Tanaka petty that i have never really been able to get nearly as sharp as my other knives by a long margin. My sharpening skills are still at a learning beginner stage after all this time but i feel a bit frustrated and now wondering if there is something about this steel that makes it tougher than b1/2 or wh1/2 which most of my other knives are.


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## sidey (Jul 1, 2020)

Vg10 is regarded by most as a little trickier/ less enjoyable to sharpen than blue or white. 
I have acheap vg10 petty that takes a very keen edge, easily getting shaving sharp. Edge leading debuting strokes really help.


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## FishmanDE (Jul 1, 2020)

I switched to High carbon because I had the same issue.


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## M1k3 (Jul 1, 2020)

Finishing with edge leading


Anyone else like to finish and touch up using edge leading strokes? I used to use edge trailing strokes, but have found that I'm much more likely to get a wire edge or a keen but fragile edge. Edge leading strokes seem to lend a little more bite to the edge, make it more durable, and are easier...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## dafox (Jul 1, 2020)

Do you have another petty in another steel to compare the Tanaka to? The reason I ask is I find pettys more difficult to sharpen than gyutos.


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## madmotts (Jul 1, 2020)

I had that experience with my only VG10 (Kurosaki) and was a little frustrated with it. I'm a pretty "new" sharpener, but I came back to it a few days after reading posts about focusing on getting a good edge at 1k. I redid my progressions with a good amount of time on the 1k Chosera. I also did the light pressure strokes which really helped with the debur. After doing 2k, 5k and stropped and it became surprisingly sharp. I was thinking of getting rid of it, but it was really user-error. Good luck!


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## slickmamba (Jul 1, 2020)

what kind of issues are you seeing?


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## applepieforbreakfast (Jul 1, 2020)

I don't know. I sharpened my Tojiro DP's on Shapton Pro 1k followed by 5k last year, and it was the first edge on them that I was satisfied with in 6 years of owning them.

Maybe my technique has changed, maybe I'm better at holding a consistent angle, maybe it's the stones, maybe the stars aligned.




dafox said:


> Do you have another petty in another steel to compare the Tanaka to? The reason I ask is I find pettys more difficult to sharpen than gyutos.



This is something that's worth looking into. Maybe your motion doesn't really jive with pettys?


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 1, 2020)

How are you sharpening? What stones are you using?

Maybe this video can help;


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## zeaderan (Jul 1, 2020)

slickmamba said:


> what kind of issues are you seeing?


Oddly enough the left side of the blade feels gummy on the stones. Right side seems to sharpen well but I can't seem to get anywhere on the left side, esp with a grit higher than 1k. It feels like it just rubs more thean grind/scratch. 



madmotts said:


> I had that experience with my only VG10 (Kurosaki) and was a little frustrated with it. I'm a pretty "new" sharpener, but I came back to it a few days after reading posts about focusing on getting a good edge at 1k. I redid my progressions with a good amount of time on the 1k Chosera. I also did the light pressure strokes which really helped with the debur. After doing 2k, 5k and stropped and it became surprisingly sharp. I was thinking of getting rid of it, but it was really user-error. Good luck!


For sure, definitely a sizable amount of user error for me but it's tough to see I'm not getting any better. I'm used to having the edge dull a bit while I go up in grit cause I'm not super steady with my angles but it just won't get very sharp at any grit... I seem to deburr just fine on my b2 and wh2 gyuto so that don't seem to be it. 



dafox said:


> Do you have another petty in another steel to compare the Tanaka to? The reason I ask is I find pettys more difficult to sharpen than gyutos.


I have a yoshi sld hammered petty but I don't use it a lot cause I'm not fond of the profile. It sharpens to what I expect my skill level is based on how I get my gyutos. Also sharpens rather quicker which really helps since a lot of my troubles are stable angles at my point of the journey


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## Unstoppabo (Jul 1, 2020)

VG-10 is notorious for hanging on to a wire edge and being a pain in the @xx to sharpen. You really need to cut off the burr because more gentle techniques don't work. Maybe try Kippington's technique for cutting off the burr. 

If it feels like the left side isn't getting cut like the right side on higher grits, it might be because the bevel angle is slightly higher on the left side and you're hitting the shoulder instead of the face of the bevel. Most Japanese knives are asymmetric to a certain extent with the left edge ~3 degrees higher so you either have to adjust your angle or thin that shoulder enough to reset the bevel. If your sharpening motion on the left side is a bit more parallel with the edge instead of perpendicular to it, that could be causing the gummy feeling too. I have the same problem with my backhand strokes and still trying to figure out how to hit that side more like my forehand.


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## zeaderan (Jul 1, 2020)

Wow lots of info in such a short time. Guess it's time to pull out the stones and reevaluate what I'm doing.

From reading a bit in the edge leading thread link I wonder if I'm applying a much greater pressure when I flip sides so I'm pressing too hard on the lead when scrubbing on the left side and possibly undermining my efforts from the former. 

As for the asymmetric sides, after looking at the blade I prob did dip the angle of the left side too parallel as mentioned. I guess I'll have to try keeping closer attention next time I get a chance to work on this and reapply the sharpie more often to check progress in shorter intervals 



applepieforbreakfast said:


> Maybe your motion doesn't really jive with pettys?


Hahaha... If you can see me sharpen, it could be argued that my motion doesnt jive with any knives...


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## Matt Jacobs (Jul 2, 2020)

I agreed with you when I first started sharpening. Infact I sold 3 VG10 knives just because I hated to sharpen them. Now I have a VG10 paring knife I really like and a Yaxell Nakiri that is not bad. The trick for me was that sharpening VG10 just takes longer and more effort. On White or Blue steel not only do I need much less pressure but they sharpen much faster. Now I set my own bevels and understand that I really have to work on the low grit stones to both produce and remove the burr. My VG10 knives get very sharp now. It just takes more effort and I dont like it as much as the carbons.


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## DHunter86 (Jul 3, 2020)

When I started sharpening, I had some issues with my VG10 blades as well. While technique definitely plays a huge part, and I am now able to get my VG10 blades very sharp on any stone, I find that using the "right" stone works best for VG10. In particular, I prefer to use my Choseras for VG10, burr removal is really easy on the Chosera 3000 after setting the bevel on the Chosera 800. My Naniwa Lobster and Shun sharpening stones (which don't get much attention these days) just doesn't seem to cut it for VG10, hard to deburr on these stones. 

The HT on the VG10 definitely affects the burr formation and removal - had different experiences when sharpening VG10 from Scanpan, Miyabi, and Hattori, especially on my Naniwa Lobster.


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## demirtasem (Jul 3, 2020)

Same here. I don't know if I'm impatient or have a delusion but I don't think I reach the same performance comparing with OOB. I have absolutely better results with 52100, W#2(I know I can't compare with carbon) but I spend more time on that to get rid of the wire edge with Jon's way. I don't know man, before I come to KKF I was thinking VG10 is one of the better steals after R2 (at least vendors communicating that way) but I don't know is it a perfect steel newbies like me.


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## dafox (Jul 3, 2020)

DHunter86 said:


> When I started sharpening, I had some issues with my VG10 blades as well. While technique definitely plays a huge part, and I am now able to get my VG10 blades very sharp on any stone, I find that using the "right" stone works best for VG10. In particular, I prefer to use my Choseras for VG10, burr removal is really easy on the Chosera 3000 after setting the bevel on the Chosera 800. My Naniwa Lobster and Shun sharpening stones (which don't get much attention these days) just doesn't seem to cut it for VG10, hard to deburr on these stones.
> 
> The HT on the VG10 definitely affects the burr formation and removal - had different experiences when sharpening VG10 from Scanpan, Miyabi, and Hattori, especially on my Naniwa Lobster.


What did you think of the Hattori vg10?


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## DHunter86 (Jul 4, 2020)

To be honest, that knife hasn't seen much use as I got the 270mm version of the gyuto. My kitchen is not big enough for such a long knife. On the few chances I've had to use the knife and also to sharpen it, I find that it take on quite a sharp edge, and retains it longer than both my Scanpan and Miyabi. If I had to guess Hattori takes the VG10 to higher HRC values. For HRC, I'd reckon the following Hattori > Miyabi > Scanpan. None of my VG10 blades has had chipping issues thus far; granted only my Miyabi VG10 is used for pushing cutting produce, the other two are mainly used for slicing.

However, I'm not sure whether it's the HT, but Hattori's version forms a patina on small spots on the blade quite easily when used to slice cooked red meat (when warm).


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## Benuser (Jul 4, 2020)

With VG-10, don't expect the burr to fall off like with simple carbons. It has to be abraded, through the entire progression. Don't leave the first stone before the burr can't be reduced any further, and it only flips.


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## daveb (Jul 4, 2020)

I would rather take an ass whipping than sharpen VG10. Tough to get it started, tough to finish. I don't have any in my personal lineup.

But friends and their Shun and Shun Lite have me sharpening VG10 (and VGMAX) periodically. My approach is SG500 to start burr, SP1000 to even out everything and finish on SP2000 or Gesshin 6K diamond plate. For me I finish with some light edge leading strokes. I find this an ideal line up. And I still hate it.


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 4, 2020)

Have any of you guys tried plateau-sharpening on VG10's?


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## dafox (Jul 4, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Have any of you guys tried plateau-sharpening on VG10's?


Huh, what's that?


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 4, 2020)

dafox said:


> Huh, what's that?



Here's Cliff Stamp's take on it; basically, you run the apex of the blade perpendicular to the stones' surface, to remove the apex,, creating a tiny plateau,,, thus avoiding the need to produce a burr,,, then, you sharpen the bevel as you normally would, sneaking up on a new apex, creating a micro-bevel.

Go to the 8:05 mark of this video;



Here's one by Jef Jewell;



Here's another by Stefan Wolf;


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## daveb (Jul 4, 2020)

Cliff. Yeah.


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## dafox (Jul 4, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Here's Cliff Stamp's take on it; basically, you run the apex of the blade perpendicular to the stones' surface, to remove the apex,, creating a tiny plateau,,, thus avoiding the need to produce a burr,,, then, you sharpen the bevel as you normally would, sneaking up on a new apex, creating a micro-bevel.
> 
> Go to the 8:05 mark of this video;
> 
> ...



Thanks, I see!


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## kayman67 (Jul 4, 2020)

I do, sometimes, pretty much the routine you saw above. I've tried everything I could ever found on sharpening.


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## ModRQC (Jul 4, 2020)

The third knife I ever sharpened was a Takayuki VG-10. I thought it went rather well considering it was pretty dull OOTB because they had rolled the edge when polishing - can still use that edge I gave it very well, although it didn’t see much action, perhaps 2-3 hours since.

I don’t use the same technique anymore for sharpening. I remember creating a burr not too big on SP320 and using a bit lighter pressure to make it very hairy and consistent, then flipping it with even less pressure, about five times. Same process exactly on the 1k but there it started to deburr of itself. Finished on 5K with only light pressure edge trailing - that’s what I don’t do anymore but it worked well.

@Benuser gave solid advice saying that you had to flip until it can’t be reduced further down. Weaken it. Flip it 10 times if you must. Key is there more than in progression or technique.


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## dafox (Jul 6, 2020)

@inferno what has been your experience with the Hattori forums VG10?


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2020)

Interesting question!! +1


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## Nemo (Jul 7, 2020)

+2. Always wondered how it would be to thin a VG10 mono.


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## Benuser (Jul 7, 2020)

Nemo said:


> +2. Always wondered how it would be to thin a VG10 mono.


Have thinned a JCK mono VG-10. Didn't find it particularly abrasion resistant. Find soft stainless claddings far more problematic.


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## Nemo (Jul 7, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Have thinned a JCK mono VG-10. Didn't find it particularly abrasion resistant. Find soft stainless claddings far more problematic.


That's interesting but on further consideration not too surprising. Soft stainless can get very.... I guess "gummy" is the closest word. Thanks for the perspective.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 7, 2020)

I thinned my tojiro vg-10. That wasn’t bad at all. It was actually pretty fast and easy. I have to say though that Tojiro vg-10 is among the best vg-10 knives I’ve tried (most others I’ve tried have been shuns).


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## Benuser (Jul 7, 2020)

The Tojiro cladding is not as problematic as other, softer ones.
As for the VG-10 core, I had very different experiences with the DP, from very easy to dramatic, and anything in between.


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## ModRQC (Jul 7, 2020)

Benuser said:


> The Tojiro cladding is not as problematic as other, softer ones.
> As for the VG-10 core, I had very different experiences with the DP, from very easy to dramatic, and anything in between.



You mean as a variance between multiple DP units? Like the heat treatment is inconsistent from one to another?


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## Benuser (Jul 7, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> You mean as a variance between multiple DP units? Like the heat treatment is inconsistent from one to another?


At least the results being very different from one to another.


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## ModRQC (Jul 7, 2020)

Benuser said:


> At least the results being very different from one to another.



Always the same progression?


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## Benuser (Jul 7, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Always the same progression?


Not sure about all of them. Can't tell. 
Except for the case of two Tojiro's from the same owner, bought together. Sharpened both after serious repair and thinning. Deburring with one remarkably easy, with the other one noticeably more difficult.


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## ModRQC (Jul 7, 2020)

Interesting, thanks!


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## Kawa (Jul 7, 2020)

Fot what it's worth, my 2 cents:

A few weeks ago I sharpened a Tojiro DP (fd 1564 'Tojiro zen black'). I can't remember there were specific problems with creating burr or deburring or anything else. Since I signed up on this forum, I read a lot of VG-10 being problematic while sharpening. I didn't notice a thing compared to some better Wusthofs or Zwillings (next to the obvious things like geometry, angle and hardness).
I do remember I was quite pleased with the result. I could get clean through toilet paper, that luxery soft paper. This is a level I don't always achieve with my sharpening skills.

A bit more background so you can decide if this experience is worth anything to you. I don't know where I stand on sharpening skills. It's hard to find out who gives advice based on knowledge and own skills or who gives advice based on what they have read and know what is theoretically the right answer, if you know what I mean.
For example: I can give a new sharpener advice on what starting stones he should buy, just because I read a lot of the same answers in many topics. But it might be only one opinion of the most respected member here, which gets repeated because 'he' tells so...

I'm not new: Since a few weeks I read a lot on this forum and I notice from pictures from new people who have troubles sharpening, my results are (often) cleaner and in all modesty: 'I think I see what goes wrong in the picture'. But I also notice that often I am not skilled enough to give advice, knowing I learn a lot from the answers other are giving in that topic. Guess I'm somewhere in between.

So the fact that I noticed nothing strange with the VG-10 might just be lack of skills and experience


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## Benuser (Jul 7, 2020)

That sounds rather encouraging.


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## Twotimehojo (Jul 8, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> @Benuser gave solid advice saying that you had to flip until it can’t be reduced further down. Weaken it. Flip it 10 times if you must. Key is there more than in progression or technique.



Can you elaborate on flipping it 10 times? Do you mean the burr flips with just one pass or one stroke or with 25% less pressure? Is there a video that demonstrates this flipping back and forth?

Thanks!


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## ModRQC (Jul 8, 2020)

It was just a number - but yeah with practice « flipping » can be done with alternating trailing edge strokes. I don’t trust myself to do it good enough though so I do what you’ll probably do: once the burr is raised on one side and has been transfered to the other side, lighten your pressure and go through the same motion again and again, always checking that the burr entirely and consistently goes from one side to the other - it is normal, expected and wanted that it will reduce each time, so just make sure it does flip entirely is what I mean.

As @Benuser said, at one point you will feel that your burr doesn’t reduce anymore - it just flips. Go to a finer stone with the very same pressure you used to flip, and reduce pressure each time you flip both sides, until there nothing much that you can feel going on - edge will seemed deburred as far as your fingers can tell.

That’s when you can use just light leading strokes alternating side to side, trying to abrade any remnant. Then inspect under direct light, and deburr with soft wood or cork or even your nail. You want to use very light pressure with those mediums: what you are looking for is that it goes smooth the entire edge. When remnants of a burr are still attached, you will feel them as the blade will catch, bite and kind of «jump » instead of just gliding smoothly.


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## inferno (Jul 10, 2020)

dafox said:


> @inferno what has been your experience with the Hattori forums VG10?



Its been very good. 
from what i have read vg10 would be hard/impossible to deburr, smeary, and yet chippy. 

i dont see any of that on the hattori. its hard as rock and non smeary on the stones. 
deburring is not any worse than any other ingot SS. 
not at all chippy. its actually very very tough. maybe not as touch as aus8 but still tough enough for home use.




Nemo said:


> +2. Always wondered how it would be to thin a VG10 mono.



i have not thinned my hattori. but i guess its a nightmare just like all other monos. 
when i have to do it. i will be going to the glass 220 then the 500 then 1k and then 4k. 

it takes and holds a 4k edge well imo.


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## FishmanDE (Aug 27, 2020)

I wanted to touch back on this thread. Since my last post back in July, I was Very bothered by the fact that I couldn't get knives as sharp as I used to, so I immersed myself into sharpening for the month of august. I had a King 1000 and a King 6000 initially, and invested in a shapton 500 and my first jnat (a world which I'm still trying to wrap my head around). I watched the Murry Carter tutorial every day for two weeks, comparing my techniques to his. What I discovered were two errors on my end. 1) I had gotten away from taking my time and maintaining consistent angles. 2) I wasn't properly thinning the secondary on a regular basis. I feel like those two issues may be whats giving VG 10 people trouble. hope this helps anyone still having issues. Thanks to everyone for the comments and links as well, I found all of it SUPER helpful


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## madmotts (Aug 27, 2020)

God those King stones are frustrating. Glad you freed yourself from them.


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## Malcolm Johnson (Aug 27, 2020)

I just sharpened vg-10 for the first time 2 weeks ago and going down a bit lower on grit ( I used my ATOMA 140 plate) to really make your edge bevel even, then working your way up to finer stones. Also doing the edge leading deburring method made a ton of difference.


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## FishmanDE (Aug 27, 2020)

madmotts said:


> God those King stones are frustrating. Glad you freed yourself from them.



Well, not fully. I still give them quick passes on the 1k as my natural is somewhere around 3/4K. But the 6k king has been utterly useless for me in the two years I’ve had it.


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## inferno (Aug 29, 2020)

Nemo said:


> That's interesting but on further consideration not too surprising. Soft stainless can get very.... I guess "gummy" is the closest word. Thanks for the perspective.





Benuser said:


> The Tojiro cladding is not as problematic as other, softer ones.
> As for the VG-10 core, I had very different experiences with the DP, from very easy to dramatic, and anything in between.



i have actually noticed this recently. i have a cheap deba with what i guess is 304 ss cladding. and that cladding can completely ruin diamond plates and some stones that dont release any abrasive. i think most quality knives use 400 series ss instead of 300 series just because of this.


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## spaceconvoy (Aug 29, 2020)

madmotts said:


> God those King stones are frustrating. Glad you freed yourself from them.


Other than dishing a little quicker and taking a few strokes longer to sharpen, there's nothing wrong with King stones. If you learned how to sharpen with them, you might associate the frustration of the learning process with the stones themselves. But they're decent stones


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## psfred (Aug 29, 2020)

Having learned to more or less hone straight razors, I find a good deal of that knowledge useful for knives.

First and foremost, let the stone do the work. High pressure will result in large burrs, especially in steel prone to burr retention (VG-10 for instance). Light pressure, minimal burrs (stop when you get a hint of one and start de-burring) and staying away from low grit stones makes a big, big difference.

So does angle control and even pressure across the blade. Most of that is inherent in straight razors as you put the spine on the stone while honing, but for knives give it a try.

King stones can drive you nuts until you learn to use VERY light pressure on them, otherwise they can wear so fast you dub back the apex.

VG-10 is very difficult to get exactly right in heat treatment I suspect, and is probably prone to losing it's characteristics close to the edge if not handled exactly right in final tempering. The result is a thin strip of soft, gummy steel at the very edge that will change quite a bit after it's sharpened a couple times.

And for beginners, angle control is absolutely critical. Until you can hold and repeat the same bevel angle down the entire blade well enough to have a clean apex you will not get a knife sharp. one pass down a fine stone at too high an angle can un-do half an hours work on coarser stones, and dubbing back the apex on a coarse stone is worse than starting with a dull knife. I know, I goofed on a yanagiba and am having to grind forever on coarse stones to get the wide bevel back to the edge, and hoping I have enough ura left to actually sharpen it. 

Practice will get you there.


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## kayman67 (Aug 29, 2020)

This is like reading myself )


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## psfred (Aug 30, 2020)

Lol, there isn't much not known about the theory of sharpening. It's the actual mechanics of doing it that are difficult!

That's why I suggest learning on knives you don't care much about, as beginners are VERY likely to do some damage. It's one thing to roll the edge and make gouges on a cheap carbon steel knife and quite another to do serious edge damage to a $400 gyuto one it trying to make a living with.


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