# Comparable to a DT ITK



## mc2442 (Mar 17, 2011)

With an unknown time table on when a DT ITK western handled knife will become available, I was wondering what other knifes are considered in the same ballpark.

I am not ready to make the leap to carbon, so only looking at stainless.

All suggestions appreciated,

Matt


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## JohnnyChance (Mar 17, 2011)

I am really happy with my latest 240mm gyuto, a Miyabi Birchwood 5000 MCD 240mm. I have only had it for about a week, but I am really liking the blade geometry and handle. Need some more testing, hopefully Miyabi did as good of a job with SG2 as they did with VG10 in their Fusion line. So far it seems that way. $299 for the 240mm, no 270 is offered. I will be doing a full writeup soon.







Check the end of the DT ITK thread in the CKTG subforum on KF. Dave mentions he might be doing a pre order for the next batch of western itks.


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## chazmtb (Mar 17, 2011)

Not stainless, but somewhat stainless would be any version of the TKC, whether be it from Ichimonji, or Japanesechefsknife (JKC) carbonext. I own the TKC and have used the Devin's ITK. I actually liked the TKC better so I sold the Devin. 

What would be awsome is to get either the TKC or the carbonext and get Dave to put a an awsome handle on it.


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## jjparkinson (Mar 17, 2011)

I guess a konosuke hd would also be another worth considering.


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## mc2442 (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks Johnny, I will check that thread out. I see the pre-order on the wa handled ones right now.


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## cnochef (Mar 18, 2011)

jjparkinson said:


> I guess a konosuke hd would also be another worth considering.


 
+1 [email protected] said that he will be bringing in more western-handled Konosuke HD, I think this will be my 270.

I have a 240 western Ichimonji TKC (not Kikuichi) and I can vouch for it's outstanding performance. I also hate to say that it outperforms my western DT ITK especially on onions and tougher vegetables where I've found the ITK has a slight wedging issue. Anybody else find this a bit of a problem?


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## chazmtb (Mar 18, 2011)

cnochef said:


> +1 [email protected] said that he will be bringing in more western-handled Konosuke HD, I think this will be my 270.
> 
> I have a 240 western Ichimonji TKC (not Kikuichi) and I can vouch for it's outstanding performance. I also hate to say that it outperforms my western DT ITK especially on onions and tougher vegetables where I've found the ITK has a slight wedging issue. Anybody else find this a bit of a problem?


 
That was the exact reason why I sold the ITK. For some reason, my grind was not that good, or the distal taper design was not that good. I think it was more of the grind, because many others thought the blade was very thin at the shoulders. Mine was not, and I was disappointed after waiting for so long. I had to wait for the third batch, even though I was one of the early ones that paid for the second batch because it was oversold. Maybe it was luck of the draw.

Anyway, I had a good point of reference with the TKC. That's why I sold the ITK the next day.


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## obtuse (Mar 18, 2011)

I highly recommended the western handled HD&#8212;outstanding grind.


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## kalaeb (Mar 18, 2011)

I am not sure the DT ITK and the HD are in the same ball park. Mine are very different knives, although both are 240 gyutos. The HD is very light, nimble and thin. The ITK is not, I am not bashing the ITK, I like it and it is a good knife with the best FF I have seen on any knife, but I think there lots of options in the same or less price range. 

What exactely are you looking for in a knife? Thick, thin, work, home, carbon?


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## mc2442 (Mar 18, 2011)

Most everything I have read about the DT ITK has been praise, so I love hearing the other side of peoples' experiences.

Home cook, looking for an everyday knife on the thinner side, but not a laser. I have a 270 Tojiro for heavier work. Stainless as I have not made the jump to carbon yet.


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## unkajonet (Mar 18, 2011)

Glestain might fit the bill. Either at Korin or JCK.


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## wenus2 (Mar 18, 2011)

iirc: Jon added the Yoshihiro @ JKI to fill this "thin-but-not-too-thin-stainless" niche. It is wa handled though.


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## olpappy (Mar 18, 2011)

Interesting thread. Not to hijack, but how does the wa-handled ITK compare with wa handled gyutos like Tadatsuna, Suisin?


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## oivind_dahle (Mar 18, 2011)

Heiji Semi Stainless 240 Gyuto


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## chazmtb (Mar 18, 2011)

olpappy said:


> Interesting thread. Not to hijack, but how does the wa-handled ITK compare with wa handled gyutos like Tadatsuna, Suisin?


 
The two Japanese knives are much thinner. The ITK kind of have a convex grind, at least the one that I had, so the shoulder was a little thicker than I am used to with the Japanese. The ITK felt a lot like a Yoshikane SKD, maybe not as thick up to the spine, but the Yoshikane was a san mai forged.


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## olpappy (Mar 18, 2011)

Hmm, I wonder if yours was atypical? From the reviews I was reading on KF I would have thought the ITK was like a laser, or was it infatuation with the latest and greatest?


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## kalaeb (Mar 18, 2011)

The ITK is definatley not a laser, not to say it is a bad knife... I just think the HD and even the Carbonext out perform it imo. I have been thinking about getting some calipers for some time now, if I get a chance I will buy some this weekend and get some measurements, although I would assume they are somewhere on the KF thread.

Sometimes you wonder if some of the reviews are the result of the hype, sometimes when you wait so long for something that everyone and their dog wants and has nothing but praise for it, you hesitate to say anything to the contrary for fear of reprisal from the group. 

For the record, I am not selling mine, I like it, its just not my number 1, and it has in no way disinterested me in saving for a damascas DT.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Mar 18, 2011)

No, it is not a "laser". It won't even begin to fit into a Tadatsuna or Konosuke HD saya. Here are some measurements:

Handle Length 143.00 mm
Handle Height (f/r)	23.55	mm	27.00	mm
Handle Width (f/r)	19.10	mm	23.30	mm
Handle to Tip Length	241.50mm
Heel to Tip Length	229.00mm
Blade Height at Heel	47.90	mm
Width of Spine at Handle	3.15mm
Width of Spine Above heel	2.90mm
Width of Spine at Middle	2.25mm
Width of Spine about 1cm from the tip	0.70mm
Blade Thickness at 1/2 way between the Spine and Edge	1.35mm
Weight	189.0	g


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## Cadillac J (Mar 18, 2011)

I had an ITK from the first batch, but sold it because it was too thick for me(everything else was awesome).

Just like with everything else, it is all preference...I prefer the thinnest knife possible for my suji/gyutos, so I stick to Konosuke and Suisin. However, some people like a bit more substantial knife, so we would have varying views.

This is one of the reasons why just asking the "what knife to buy" question can easily steer people in the wrong direction. Just because a knife gets a lot of praise does not mean it is right for you.


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## chazmtb (Mar 18, 2011)

olpappy said:


> Hmm, I wonder if yours was atypical? From the reviews I was reading on KF I would have thought the ITK was like a laser, or was it infatuation with the latest and greatest?


 
I had communicated with a couple of people about their ITK. Theirs were ground pretty well. Maybe it was mine that was a little thick. Granted, if someone doesn't have a point of reference to go by, the ITK may be fantastic. It is fantastically well fit and finish wise. However, I have gone through a lot of knives, just buying trying and selling what I don't like. I would compare the ITK most closely to the Yoshikane in terms of how the blade felt.

Plus I was doing a comparison between the Ichimonji TKC and the ITK, because I was only going to keep one. I am really impressed with the Ichi TKC. Superb steel, thin but tough. Takes a great edge, relatively easy to sharpen (easer than the AS super steel on the Hiromoto AS, as that is one of the other knives that I use on a regular basis). In the end, I wasn't going to keep the ITK, but would rather spend the money somewhere else (like stealing a 270mm Kijero Doi yanagiba #23 with ebony handle and ebony saya)


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## spinblue (Mar 18, 2011)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> It won't even begin to fit into a Tadatsuna or Konosuke HD saya.



That's not the case for me. I got the 270 Tad INOX at least a couple years ago along with the saya. 

My 270 DT easily fits in the saya, albeit snug, but very easily slips in.


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## chazmtb (Mar 18, 2011)

I think the point is, since it is a mid tech knife, but done by hand, there may be variations from blade to blade. Mine was definitely thick on the shoulders.


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## Kentucky Jeff (Mar 18, 2011)

I have one of the first 270mm ITK's and I think it compares most favorably to my Suisin Inox Honyaki 270. The blade profile is almost identical. However, the ITK is just a tad thicker. Its by no means fatty though. Compared to something like a Shigefusa, or a Watanabe or a Carter the ITK is a light saber. 

The thing alot of people don't get about the DT ITK is you gotta put it to the stones to make it sing. While I wouldn't say the edge that Hoss puts on his knives is as bad as the edge you would get with an Aritsugu Type A. I will say that if you buy an Aritsugu type A and don't properly establish the edges out of the box then you will NEVER see why the Type A is so highly regarded. 

After I worked over the edge on my ITK it really began to sing!


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## SpikeC (Mar 18, 2011)

chazmtb said:


> done by hand, there may be variations from blade to blade.


 
I think that says it all, pretty much. You want it thinner? Grind it down, you want it thicker? Tough luck!


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## mc2442 (Mar 18, 2011)

Thank you for the suggestions and discussion all. Unfortunately it just makes me want to get multiple knives now to compare and contrast.

At least there seems to be a decent resale market among the knife nuts.


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## Kentucky Jeff (Mar 18, 2011)

I just tried my 270 DT ITK in my 270 Suisin Honyaki Gyuto Saya that came with the knife and it fit fine. The Suisin is a snug fit with a little friction in the last inch or two shy of pushing it home in the saya and the ITK has only a little more friction. Its snugger--but I wouldn't say its tight in the saya.


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## so_sleepy (Mar 18, 2011)

mc2442 said:


> Thank you for the suggestions and discussion all. Unfortunately it just makes me want to get multiple knives now to compare and contrast.


 
The forums have limits to their value. They are great places to discover new makers and get ideas, but you have to judge for yourself. 

As far as the DT ITK goes, there is too much variation from one batch to the next for you to have a realistic expectation. I would suggest that you get on the list to pre-order, but ask Mark not to ship it until he sends you a picture of the actual knife and its dimensions. You can cancel if it isn't what you want.

I have a western 240mm:
heel to tip - 249mm
edge to spine at heel - 54mm
weight - 217g

It has a nice distal taper and is reasonably thin behind the edge. The profile was a surprise when I got it. I like the edge, but it is too tall near the tip. It looks more like a big santoku than my ideal gyuto. 

My first DT ITK was a wa 240. I returned it because the edge was overground at 3-4 cm from the tip. It was bad enough that I cant fix it. My western 240 is also overground, but not nearly as bad. My main reason for getting the ITK was to evaluate Devin's steel to see if i want to order a custom. It takes to long to get another ITK, so I'm going to customize this one by regrinding the profile of the spine and re-shaping the edge a little to even up the overgrind.


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## tk59 (Mar 19, 2011)

I haven't seen anything quite like the DTITK. Stainless, hard at 61+ hrc, nice thin tip (similar to my HD and IT) and fairly hefty heel with excellent fit and finish and a stabilized handle... I would go with a Yoshihiro. Jon stocks these. They are pretty nice although the spine and choil are not rounded, if I remember correctly. If you don't mind thin, I'd go with KonHD, my personal favorite at the moment (along with my DTITK).

It is true there is some variation in the DTITK's and the wa version doesn't seem to quite have the same profile as the western. I've seen three 270mm wa DTITK's. Of the three, one had a significant overgrind near the tip which Devin promptly addressed. The first batch was thicker than subsequent batches.


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## kalaeb (Mar 19, 2011)

Here are some pics of a Carbonext, if you would ever consider one.


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## kalaeb (Mar 19, 2011)

Hmm, I was hoping those would be bigger, my first time posting pics. Any idea how to make them bigger?


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## SpikeC (Mar 19, 2011)

Link to bigger pics??


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## kalaeb (Mar 19, 2011)

Trying again, thanks Spike, I think that worked.


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## DK chef (Mar 19, 2011)

sweet handle


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## SpikeC (Mar 19, 2011)

Whoa! That is one cool handle!


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## Dave Martell (Mar 19, 2011)

kalaeb, what is the handle material? It doesn't look stock.


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## kalaeb (Mar 19, 2011)

Dave Martell said:


> kalaeb, what is the handle material? It doesn't look stock.


 
It is a resin impregnated prickly pear cactus. I was not sure how it was going to turn out, but it polished up pretty nice.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 19, 2011)

kalaeb said:


> It is a resin impregnated prickly pear cactus. I was not sure how it was going to turn out, but it polished up pretty nice.


 
Yeah it looks real nice. Did you do the re-handle?


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## Eamon Burke (Mar 19, 2011)

Holy brisket, a prickly pear handle?! Put that on a D2 barbeque knife and I bet I could sell those like hotcakes here in Texas! Do tell where you got it. Did you make it?


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## kalaeb (Mar 19, 2011)

Dave-I still have a long way to go to get my handles even close to the hiro you did for me, but yes I re-handled this one. 

Eamon-I got the scales from Ankrom Exotics, they do some pretty cool stuff with all sorts of cactus and resins. They also have some pretty nice burls and stabilized woods to choose from. In speaking to Pat Ankrom, if I remember right, he has these made for him buy a guy in Texas.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 19, 2011)

kalaeb said:


> Dave-I still have a long way to go to get my handles even close to the hiro you did for me, but yes I re-handled this one.


 
I don't know about that, this handle looks real good to me.


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## bob (Mar 20, 2011)

Awesome handle, it looks pro quality to me. How long did it take you to do this?


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## Bryan G. (Mar 20, 2011)

If you have a 240 Tojiro but don't want "laser" thin then to fit your desires at the best price/performance I 110% suggest a Carbonext. I have a 270, it's thinner than a 270 Tojiro but thicker than the 270 HD. The 240 CN I am sure is a bit thinner than the 270 but still not a laser like the HD's. The HDs have outstanding profile on the blade IMO. The CN is closer to a Tojiro in profile with a thinner grind and better handle IMO. I am a big fan of the CN but w/ the HD in my possesion and a DM handles Hiro for heavier work I find the CN seeing less work. Still rated best knife I have seen/used in the $100-250 range. 

The HD 270 is my favorite blade I have used but definitely not an all rounder like a CN or my heaftier Hiro or Tojiro.

Bryan


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## kalaeb (Mar 20, 2011)

bob said:


> Awesome handle, it looks pro quality to me. How long did it take you to do this?


 
Bob, they really don't take terribly long, if you have some dedicated days, they could probably be done in a weekend. But I work 65 hours a week, travel a ton and have a three year old boy that loves to "help". I am lucky if I get 15 min at a time to work on handles. This one probably took three or four weeks.


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## DevinT (Mar 21, 2011)

Forum members,

Please contact me pearsonally if you have a problem with one of my knives. 

With each batch of ITK's they are getting thinner. With the many comments here I will probably come out with a laser.

I will take any DT ITK as thin as you want.

I think it best that you give me a chance to fix anything that you are unhappy about.

It is difficult to build a knife for the money that these are selling for and the expectation that these are as good as a full custom.

The steel and the heat treat are as good as we know how.

I do understand that my knives will not be a perfect match for everyone.

I encourage everyone to make 10 knives of this size and sell them for the same price, and let me know if your perspective might change a bit.

Love and respect

Hoss


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## UglyJoe (Mar 21, 2011)

Hoss,

I don't think anyone is hating on your knives in particular... if you start making them all thin, some people are going to want a thicker, more "all purpose" knife. Everyone has different tastes, and I'd personally love to own an ITK someday... I just don't know when I'll be able to afford one with all the other stuff I want as well... sigh...


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## chazmtb (Mar 21, 2011)

Good to hear Hoss.

From my perspective, I would have kept my knife and worked on it. However, I already had a great knife with a great custom handle, and I didn't want to keep 2 270mm. It was time for someone else to enjoy, and from all communications, he is.

Thanks for putting out a great product, with awsome fit and finish.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 21, 2011)

Devin has a valid point in that should anyone have an issue with a knife that they buy they should take it up with the maker or the purveyor. I'll add that it's a good idea to do this before posting online about it. Posting on issues/problems with a knife before giving the maker a chance to make it right isn't the right thing to do. I'm not pointing fingers here or saying that anyone did anything wrong, just that this is a good opportunity to mention this.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Mar 21, 2011)

mc2442 said:


> With an unknown time table on when a DT ITK western handled knife will become available...
> Matt


 
BTW, for those who have stopped visiting KF, Mark and Devin have decided to pre-sell the Western handled 240mm gyuto, in the same way the wa-handled versions are already being pre-sold. Mark estimates a 90 day wait.

http://www.**************.com/dethitktr24w.html


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## WildBoar (Mar 21, 2011)

My DT ITK 240 is not too thick, and not too thin for my tastes -- it really is a great all-around performer. It is thin enough to make the Hiros I have look like elephants. I know there are thinner knives out there, but I have not been drawn towards them. And the handle is nice enough that I have not felt the need to upgrade.

I hope to pick up a 270 at some point, probably in carbon steel.

I think it's great that Devin took on the ITK project, and is still hard at it. And I'm looking forward to seeing what Dave M turns out in his new line.


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## mc2442 (Mar 21, 2011)

Yep, I ordered one this morning. Even with the wait, I like being able to lock in the order.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Mar 21, 2011)

mc2442 said:


> Yep, I ordered one this morning. Even with the wait, I like being able to lock in the order.


 
I also want to add that sometimes we see things differently and what is obvious to one person might not be obvious to another. If you can think of ways how a knife can improved and would like to communicate it, contact the maker directly. You might learn something new as well. There are many aspiring knife makers here, so a feedback and input will be very welcome I am sure. 

M


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## kalaeb (Mar 21, 2011)

Dave Martell said:


> Devin has a valid point in that should anyone have an issue with a knife that they buy they should take it up with the maker or the purveyor. I'll add that it's a good idea to do this before posting online about it. Posting on issues/problems with a knife before giving the maker a chance to make it right isn't the right thing to do. I'm not pointing fingers here or saying that anyone did anything wrong, just that this is a good opportunity to mention this.


 
Respectfully, I have to disagree. Are the forums not a place where people can voice opinions and talk about certain attributes of knives, likes, dislikes and passions? Do we have to consort all vendors and makers before we get permission to discuss knives? Things like geometry, weight, thickness, edge retention and craftsmanship should all be able to be discussed openly, criticism included. I have much respect for Devin, his knives are beautiful and I drool every time I look at his website. I yearn for a custom knife from Devin. 

In addition I have a DT ITK, it is a great knife. Craftsmanship is superb. It is just not my favorite and I should be able to say so. If not then I apologize. I am NOT selling it, nor returning to Devin to fix because nothing is broken or wrong with it. As has been mentioned, every person has different tastes, there are a slew of people for whom this knife works great and I hope they chime in so the views are not biased. 

If there was an issue with cracked handles, warped or wavy blades or something that could not be reasonably expected, and was a flaw with a single knife I certainly understand approaching the maker or vendor. But otherwise it is what it is and should be discussed. 

I understand the ITK are not custom knives, and are difficult to exactly produce day in and day out, but shouldnt those variances and subtle differences be able to be communicated to others looking to buy? If a person would only read the reviews from the first batch on KF they would think the knives were miniscule light sabers able to sharpen on a dime and cut thermal paper in mid air with no effort. The simple fact is they are not custom knives made to individual specifications. They are however a great knife, produced by an awesome, caring maker with impeccable fit and finish.

I know the ITK will continue to be a best seller, because Devin cares so much about his products. He is an outstanding guy and will continue to raise the roof with EVERY product he sales. There is MUCH love and respect for Hoss.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 21, 2011)

I may have been somewhat unclear in my statements before but I don't mean to censor anyone, people should discuss their impressions, opinions, dislikes, likes, etc. What I was trying to convey is that should there be an issue of quality (or perception of quality) received by a customer that this person (and maker as well) would be better served to offer the maker the chance to rectify the situation prior to it being made public. 

Ex. - _Maker X just sent me a knife with a cracked handle....is this normal?_

The poster would have been better off asking the maker about fixing this before posting - this is what I'm talking about.


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## so_sleepy (Mar 22, 2011)

I think threads like this are useful to aspiring knife nuts and knife makers. The OP asked about knives that compare to the DT ITK and it is clear that there is a combination of sample variation and diverse opinions out there. He has to decide whether these are 20 opinions about the same knife or did the samples vary that much.

Devin knows better than anyone what is out there. He has to decide whether it is worthwhile to try to make all these guys happy with the ITK line. I would suggest that Devin shoot for consistency and use the ITK design as a benchmark from which to order a custom knife. I.e. order a lazer thin western 240 as a custom option so he can structure his prices according to the effort required.


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## Cadillac J (Mar 22, 2011)

Dave Martell said:


> IEx. - _Maker X just sent me a knife with a cracked handle....is this normal?_
> 
> The poster would have been better off asking the maker about fixing this before posting - this is what I'm talking about.


 
Dave, although I partially agree with you, I think you picked a bad example here to show your point. If a person new to j-knives has heard that a lot of the Japanese makers don't have the best fit/finish and are lacking in the handle department, then that is a perfect and completely valid question to ask everyone on the forum so they can know whether this is a normal or sometimes expected occurrence. The community can then tell this person to contact the maker and get the problem resolved...and this shouldn't give anyone a negative view of the maker just because somebody mentioned their experience they had. I think we are all smart enough to know that things can go wrong and mistakes are all made by the best of us.

These are some of the first 'issues' that I've heard with the ITKs (besides the personal preference observations like my own). In my opinion, these are exactly what need to be addressed for people seeking information on the ITK...why should they be 'hidden' until they are made right? Granted, I'm sure some of the issues can only be perceptual due to lack of experience (people thinking they have a problem, but it is normal), but I still think everyone has the right to voice their own opinions and experiences. You've voiced your opinions about Moritaka's over-grinds based on your experiences with them, and I'm guessing you didn't worry about contacting them first to see if the problem could be fixed first. I'll bet you've steered a lot of people away from purchasing those knives based on that too, but we all understand to take it for what it's worth.

I was lucky enough to get the second ITK that Hoss made....it was a really well crafted knife, some of the best stainless I've had the pleasure of sharpening, and performed really well. However, the weight and thickness was just a bit beefier than I personally liked, so it was only fair to sell it than to let it sit in its box. I am a fan of Devin and the ITK very much so, even though it isn't a knife for me.

My view is we should all be able to freely express our experiences and concerns, as long as they aren't in a derogatory way.


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## SpikeC (Mar 22, 2011)

This makes me wonder what would have transpired had you brought your concern to Devin. Would he have been willing to modify the knife to suit you, and if so for how much? How would it then compare to a full custom? Would he have been willing to exchange it for one that would more suit you, considering that they are hand made and therefore will vary from knife to knife and batch to batch? 
These are just some questions that would be nice to have answers for to anyone considering the purchase of one of his knives, and they are answers that only Devin can provide.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 22, 2011)

Please understand that I'm not arguing or stating policies or anything like that, just discussing. I'm feeling weird about talking about stuff like this now that I'm running a forum, it's strange.

Anyway, for my way of thinking I would choose to go the maker first and then go public but I can see that just because I think this way doesn't mean that it's the right way or the only way, it's simply a gut feeling I have on how I'd handle a problem. Now should I receive no satisfaction, well then I may not be so nice.  

Now for the Moritaka situation (a good example to discuss - I must say), they've been notified by the knife owners (their customers) directly many (many-many-many) times over and they've had valid returns that they've dismissed as well. With this information they've done nothing and continue to produce the same quality. They deserve to be talked about negatively at this point, as long as it's not derogatory, because they have been given the chance to resolve issues and have chose not to and because people have a right to know. 

I like that you guys feel OK with discussing this and that you're all so dang polite too.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 22, 2011)

Here's an example of why I mentioned cracked handle before....

On my first Hiromoto group buy knives I bought some bad wood. Some of this came to light while I was working the knives while some cracked and twisted while in the customer's hands. In every case, these customers came to me first and I made the situations right and none of this has gone public until right now. The reason why this is important is because had they started asking "is this normal" it could have become entered into potential customer's minds as this is the kind of work Dave turns out. People may have only heard of the problem - not the resolve - and associated me with doing bad work and maybe even shied away from doing re-handle business with me as a result. From my side I wasn't looking to contain this and not have it go public but I know that I was thankful for the chance to fix the problems beforehand.


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## cnochef (Mar 22, 2011)

cnochef said:


> +1 [email protected] said that he will be bringing in more western-handled Konosuke HD, I think this will be my 270.
> 
> I have a 240 western Ichimonji TKC (not Kikuichi) and I can vouch for it's outstanding performance. I also hate to say that it outperforms my western DT ITK especially on onions and tougher vegetables where I've found the ITK has a slight wedging issue. Anybody else find this a bit of a problem?


 
Let me get this straight, am I REALLY being called out because I dared to compare two knives on a KITCHEN KNIFE FORUM rather than contact the knifemaker first in private? I believe that there is nothing wrong with telling the truth, and I am sorry if I offended Devin and/or his work. I own three of his knives, so clearly I don't have that much of a problem with them! My goal was merely to inform of differences in the knives in question. I didn't say that they are poorly made, have bad fit and finish or anything like that. I do understand that Devin puts his heart and soul into his knives, but aren't we getting just a bit too sensitive and PC here?


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## monty (Mar 22, 2011)

cnochef said:


> Let me get this straight, am I REALLY being called out because I dared to compare two knives on a KITCHEN KNIFE FORUM rather than contact the knifemaker first in private? WOW! If so, I hereby apologize for my audacity in discussing the attributes of various knives on a Kitchen Knife Forum. I promise I'll never make that mistake again.


 

I don't think you are being called out. I think your post just got people thinking. Take that as a compliment!


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## Dave Martell (Mar 22, 2011)

cnochef said:


> Let me get this straight, am I REALLY being called out because I dared to compare two knives on a KITCHEN KNIFE FORUM rather than contact the knifemaker first in private? WOW! If so, I hereby apologize for my audacity in discussing the attributes of various knives on a Kitchen Knife Forum. I promise I'll never make that mistake again.




No not at all, at least that's not how I see it. 

My point on contacting the maker had nothing at all to do with perspectives, comparisons, likes/dis-likes at all. I was referring to situations that come up where there's a problem with a knife that could be handled by the maker if they were given a chance. I'm not talking about asking Devin to re-make his knife thinner - but in say the case of getting a knife with a broken handle or grind problem then that's a quality issue that should be taken to the maker. Too many times over the years I've seen people rake makers over the coals before they ever make the call and this is unfortunate. 

Knife discussion forums are for discussing differences between knives - shoot - what else would we be talking about here if we didn't have that?


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## cnochef (Mar 22, 2011)

monty said:


> I don't think you are being called out. I think your post just got people thinking. Take that as a compliment!


 
I actually went back and edited my original post, because I thought it was too strongly worded so maybe I'm too sensitive and PC myself!!!


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## kalaeb (Mar 22, 2011)

Dave Martell said:


> Here's an example of why I mentioned cracked handle before....
> 
> On my first Hiromoto group buy knives I bought some bad wood. Some of this came to light while I was working the knives while some cracked and twisted while in the customer's hands. In every case, these customers came to me first and I made the situations right and none of this has gone public until right now. The reason why this is important is because had they started asking "is this normal" it could have become entered into potential customer's minds as this is the kind of work Dave turns out. People may have only heard of the problem - not the resolve - and associated me with doing bad work and maybe even shied away from doing re-handle business with me as a result. From my side I wasn't looking to contain this and not have it go public but I know that I was thankful for the chance to fix the problems beforehand.



Good point Dave, thank you for the view point. I let my argumentative side come out, sorry, I can see how in situations like this it would be best to contact the maker.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 22, 2011)

cnochef said:


> I actually went back and edited my original post, because I thought it was too strongly worded so maybe I'm too sensitive and PC myself!!!




Please don't feel the need to edit your post, you didn't do anything wrong in asking the way you did.


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## Cadillac J (Mar 22, 2011)

Dave Martell said:


> Too many times over the years I've seen people rake makers over the coals before they ever make the call and this is unfortunate.


 
I completely agree with this comment. However, asking if a cracked handle is normal or stating a knife might of been a bit over-ground is hardly "raking anyone over the coals". Basically I agree with your concept Dave, just not the example you used. lol. 

Maybe it was just me, but I didn't read anything in this thread that I would of considered 'negative press' towards Hoss or his work....everything seemed like typical knife talk to me, which is the only reason why I felt the need to respond to all of this.

Let's also be honest here--whether or not there have been a few "issues" with the ITKs, 98% of reviews or comments have been nothing but positives...so no one's image or reputation is getting tarnished at all here.

It's all good.baby...without any type of disagreements, this place would be extremely boring!


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## Craig (Mar 22, 2011)

Even if makers are willing to fix any problems that arise, it's not entirely without value to know which knives are or are not prone to which kinds of flaws. Note that I'm not saying anything about any particular maker or knife when I say that.


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## DevinT (Mar 22, 2011)

A few more thoughts on this subject from a makers stand point.

I do not benifit much from public scrutiny. I do benifit from personal feed back from individuals who are using knives made by me and others. I know a lot about knives but I am far from knowing everything about them.

Pro's use knives differently than home cooks, and people who like to entertain are different yet.

The more input I have with individuals and how they use knives helps me learn what to make and improve.

I welcome all imput.

I am also asking that you, the forum members be sensitive to what is being posted because it can have an impact on who buy's my knives.

The support has been tremendous and I could not do any of this without the support of this forum and others like it.

It is impossible to sell high end knives to people who are ignorant. Dealing with educated, highly inteligent people can sometimes be a double edge sword. I am obviously not very smart, that's why I make knives.

I put everything I have into trying to make great knives, I guess that's why I am so sensitive about some of the comments. I am a person first and a brand second.

Much love and respect to all

Hoss


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## apicius9 (Mar 22, 2011)

I just looked at this one for the first time and would like to throw out here that I think we have two different discusions going on here. 

One is about the ITK knives and how they compare to others. And this is where everybody's preferences may come in: Some prefer ultra-thin lasers and some somewhat heftier knives. I think it is perfectly legitimate to compare knives and comment on personal like and dislikes. However, as someone who dabbles in crafting things, I don't think it is realistic to expect from a hand-made product that it is perfectly consistent across a large number of copies, and comparing it to an 'industrial' product will always be difficult because not everybody will have _exactly_ the same knife in his hands. This does not have anything to do with quality this is about personal preference, and - at most - about realistic or unrealistic expectations toward consistency in handcrafted products.

The second discussion is about how to address flaws like cracks, overgrinding, warping etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking here if you are not sure about something, but if it is an obvious flaw, I would also prefer to deal with the seller/maker first, as Dave suggests. Now the unfortunate thing is that this discussion about dealing with flaws has come up in a post about Devin's knives. And while I have not had the pleasure to use one of his knives, I don't think I have ever read any bad word about the craftsmenship, the fit and finish, the execution of details, and the care going into his knives. So, while 'How to deal with flawed knives?' is a great discussion point, I think it should not be discussed in a thread about Devin's knives because it could establish a connection that is simply not there, for all I know. 

My two cts.,

Stefan


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## so_sleepy (Mar 22, 2011)

Devin, in my case, I didn't contact you because I understood these were mid-tech (not custom) knives. I expect this to be a take it or leave it arrangement. If there was an issue right out of the box I expect the dealer to handle customer service, not you. 

Selling through a dealer has pros and cons. It saves you the hassle of taking and filling orders, but it also insulates you from the customer relationship.


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## mc2442 (Mar 22, 2011)

Devin,

I am truly looking forward to experiencing one of your "lesser" works. I am new to this, and I don't know if I will ever go custom and get one of the beauties that I have seen posted, but everything I have read about your work has been very positive. For the noobie home cook, even the mid-tech is a pretty good investment for a kitchen knife. Due to all the great things said about your work, I wanted to jump into this and get a great, though modest by some standards, knife to benchmark what I would guess to be more purchases in the future.

This post took an odd turn. I thought there was going to be quite a while before the next batch of western ITKs were made. It seems like there are plenty of shows and custom work to keep you busy, so I was just looking to get suggestions to find something comparable to get for the immediate fix, while fully intending to get one of yours later.

Funny hobbie. A little lurking led to a Tojiro and a Boardsmith cutting board....not to mention the stones and stropping gear to keep everything sharp. Not that much longer, but a lot more lurking, has me wanting more. I don't even cook all that much, though I have always wanted to get into it more and have been taking steps in that direction.

Anyway, thank you in advance for what I am sure will be a wonderful knife,

Matt


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## DevinT (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks Matt,

Be carefull there is no known cure for this type of disease.

Hoss


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## Audi's or knives (Mar 22, 2011)

DevinT said:


> Thanks Matt,
> 
> Be carefull there is no known cure for this type of disease.
> 
> Hoss



Going bankrupt and hocking them for money is one cure, of course you could sell your organs for money to buy more haha. You know your right there is no cure.


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## mc2442 (Mar 22, 2011)

I think I am already realizing that. My friends are already looking at me a bit oddly, but everyone needs a hobby. The widely varied, but accepting community does make it easy to get sucked in.

At least one friend is all for it....though me offering to sharpen his knives probably has something to do with it. Practice for me, though my first attempts seem very promising.


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## Salty dog (Mar 23, 2011)

Boy, I don't know if I should comment on this thread because I have very strong opinions on two of the subjects. Hassles with new knives and wether we should talk about it? And how knife forums relate to knife sales. It's egg shell territory and it shouldn't be.

I will say one thing. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

OK, two things. I don't believe in wabi sabi.


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## RRLOVER (Mar 23, 2011)

Wabi Sabi..........Now that's just F'in funny!:lol2:


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## Cadillac J (Mar 23, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> It's egg shell territory and it shouldn't be.



Agreed.


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## bob (Mar 23, 2011)

Well said Salty. I have to agree with you there. I don't have an agenda in this discussion because i've never owned or handled any of the knives involved in the thread. However, if i was in the market for one, i would want all the information thats available here. The whole point of a knife forum is to talk about knives. And there's no point of discussing something if you only point out the good stuff.


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