# Do I want an 8k? If I do, which one?



## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 1, 2022)

Alrighty folks, I'm going to revert to a rather "newbie" type question and fully acknowledge the "it depends factor" right up front. But I still want to ask...

I tend to lean to "courser" finishes and rarely go above 2k. I have the SG4k that, admittedly, I haven't experimented with enough yet but somehow told myself it is too fine. For reference, I spent about forty years using knives that came off a Norton Fine India or soft Arkansas. So maybe, I tend to lean into those courser finishes as much because it is familiar as it is performance based.

While I have some very nice performing knives (Yoshikane, Kurosaki, etc.), I haven't yet really felt like my sharpening approach (skills are still debatable) has been lacking.

Enter the Watanabe Pro nakiri. I'm totally and unapologetically infatuated with this beautiful tool!

In the accompanying pamphlet, Shinichi mentions finishing on an 8k Kitayama. He doesn't necessarily suggest that's what he does or we should do, but it is in there mentioning polished and extremely sharp edges. I don't care much about polish, but I do want to do my best to maintain/recreate this edge.

I know we should be creating very sharp edges off courser stones. I've preached that myself so may times. But...

If I do decide to indulge, I'm pondering the Kitayama vs. the SG8k. I like S-n-G but I'm not necessarily married to it for a finisher. Anyone have a preference between the two? Other stones you'd recommend? A nigara recommendation if I go soaker?

Thanks in advance KKF.


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## Bico Doce (Apr 1, 2022)

I’ve really liked my results with this hideriyama from JKI. Grit is supposed to be between 6-8k. Leaves a refined edge with just enough bite to it, you won’t have any issues cutting thru tomato skin. 









Hideriyama (Large)


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements This particular awasedo from the Hideriyama was recommended to us by one of our natural stone dealers. We have been looking for new types of stones to add to our lineup, as our inventory of takashima awasedo dwindles down. In testing, I actually...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com


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## branwell (Apr 1, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> If I do decide to indulge, I'm pondering the Kitayama vs. the SG8k. I like S-n-G but I'm not necessarily married to it for a finisher. Anyone have a preference between the two? Other stones you'd recommend? A nigara recommendation if I go soaker?



The problem for me with 8K edges is they stick in cutting boards too easily so while they fall through food like magic, unless there is a specific reason to use them ( sushi ), I tend to top out at 6K.

As to which finisher? Hmmmmm. I have a bunch and tend to revolve through them so my favorite stone today is likely to be different tomorrow. That said, a finisher I keep coming back to and one that easily sees the most use is the King 6K (S-1 version). Not the best feeling nor the fastest, but I do so love the edge on pretty much any steel that can hold a decent 6K edge. My suggestion for best feeling finisher is the Suehiro Cerax 6K.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 1, 2022)

branwell said:


> The problem for me with 8K edges is they stick in cutting boards too easily so while they fall through food like magic, unless there is a specific reason to use them ( sushi ), I tend to top out at 6K.
> 
> As to which finisher? Hmmmmm. I have a bunch and tend to revolve through them so my favorite stone today is likely to be different next week. That said, a finisher I keep coming back to and one that easily sees the most use is the King 6K (S-1 version). Not the best feeling, not the fastest, but I do so love the edge on pretty much any steel that can hold a decent 6K edge. My suggestion for best feeling finisher is the Suehiro Cerax 6K.



For sure this guy does slice the board!


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## inferno (Apr 2, 2022)

i think the best one overall is the shapton pro 8k. it reminds me of the 2k. i like it better than the 8k gray glass. 

gray glass polishes like a 12k and is slower than the 8k pro. 8k pro feels better. true sng
cerax/traditional 8k is good but a soaker
green suehiro 8k is good too. silicon carbide, soaker. (good for kasumi)
imanishi 10k. quite soft and quite muddy. sng
karasu 9k also good, sng. (good for kasumi)
shapton pro 12k. also very good. its fast for its grit. most allround 12k imo. true sng
naniwa 12k, best for razors since it delivers the most mirror finish out of these. true sng
morihei 12k a bit too muddy for razors imo. its a good stone though. sng

gokumyo 20k, for razors. very very good stone. more mirror. true sng


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## Wagnum (Apr 2, 2022)

For what it's worth I love the edge off the SG4k. I also convinced myself that it was too refined and usually finished at 2k for that reason but the edge off the SG4k is less refined than it looks. I mostly just give a few light passes after getting a nice edge off any 1k stone. Definitely worth messing around with but won't replace an 8k


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## gentiscid (Apr 2, 2022)

I have beard good words for Kitayama. I need an 8k myself and this is a good thread for everyone to come and share their 8k experiences.


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## Pie (Apr 2, 2022)

If all shapton glass stones are similar in terms of being quite hard, pure s&g and not muddy, then we’re talking wildly different stones. I only have the 220 and I’m not sure a coarse stone is a good representation. 

The Kitayama is pretty soft, and feels even softer. Like a pillow, and slurries readily. Good feedback and isn’t glassy. It can go for a quick soak when used for polishing, but really doesn’t have to be. I touched up my MM with it the other day, it’s smooth and effortless in use, but the edge lacks a sharp bite. Granted, I haven’t given it much of a shake for edges.. probably should.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Apr 2, 2022)

@HumbleHomeCook
FWIW, no you don't need an 8k - I only use my higher grit stone for doing ura work.

As a fellow owner of a Wat Pro nakiri, the SG4k is enough for a nice, functional edge. 

In terms of 8k, Kitayama is nice. Morihei Karasu 9k is also nice.


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## Carl Kotte (Apr 2, 2022)

The only 8k synth I’ve tried and liked is kitayama. It is fab. 
Do you need it? Idk. Do I need it? Judging by How little I use it, Idk.

Beige


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## big D (Apr 2, 2022)

You have a 4K which you don't really use, yet you are looking at an 8K. May I suggest using the 4K steadily for awhile and see if you find that lacking? mtckitchen carries these and you can pick one up at a tad over 40 when on sale though you do need to make a $100 purchase to get free shipping. You should have it figured out by then.


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## Runner_up (Apr 2, 2022)

big D said:


> You have a 4K which you don't really use, yet you are looking at an 8K. May I suggest using the 4K steadily for awhile and see if you find that lacking? mtckitchen carries these and you can pick one up at a tad over 40 when on sale though you do need to make a $100 purchase to get free shipping. You should have it figured out by then.



This is the way. 

I will say that the kitayama 8k is a great stone - gets love for a reason.


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## MrHiggins (Apr 2, 2022)

I will also pile on with some praise for the 8k kitayama. I have the one mounted on the wood base. It has a really nice soft feel and creates a creamy smooth slurry. It's a joy to use, especially after you soak it for a while. It creates a very fine mirror finish on the core steel.

That said, I hardly ever use it because the edge it creates is too refined for me. 

When I do use it, I'll create the sharpest edge I can with it, then I'll drop down to a lower grit (like 3k) to create a little texture. This will create a very sharp, but potentially chippy, edge. 

Final review: if you like to sharpen and polish for the fun and feel, then it's a good stone to have. If you sharpen for useful edges, skip it.


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## inferno (Apr 2, 2022)

imo everyone needs at least 1 high grit stone. you will never know how sharp your knives can get unless you actually put a high grit edge on there.
when i put some of my fine grained knives on an 8 or 12k they get truly scary sharp. they just fall through most stuff.

i can give you a more indepth explanation of the stones i have on hand right now, with some pics.


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## daveb (Apr 2, 2022)

Dave Martell did a review of the Kit 8K many moons ago. With some google-fu I found it for your consideration. Never used it myself.

Did use the Gesshin 8K soaker but did not feel the love and traded it for a rehandle of my own Wat nakiri. I currently have a SG8000 but have not used it much - I generally prefer to finish on Jnats for the "good" knives.

The Misunderstood Kitayama


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 2, 2022)

big D said:


> You have a 4K which you don't really use, yet you are looking at an 8K. May I suggest using the 4K steadily for awhile and see if you find that lacking? mtckitchen carries these and you can pick one up at a tad over 40 when on sale though you do need to make a $100 purchase to get free shipping. You should have it figured out by then.



This was the advice I eventually gave myself last night. But... Note the title of the thread asks if I _want_ and 8k not if I _need_ one. Could be I'm looking for an excuse to get a new stone.  

Thanks as always for the thoughts folks.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 2, 2022)

daveb said:


> Dave Martell did a review of the Kit 8K many moons ago. With some google-fu I found it for your consideration. Never used it myself.
> 
> Did use the Gesshin 8K soaker but did not feel the love and traded it for a rehandle of my own Wat nakiri. I currently have a SG8000 but have not used it much - I generally prefer to finish on Jnats for the "good" knives.
> 
> The Misunderstood Kitayama



Good read sir. Thanks for taking the time to look it up.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 2, 2022)

Pie said:


> If all shapton glass stones are similar in terms of being quite hard, pure s&g and not muddy, then we’re talking wildly different stones. I only have the 220 and I’m not sure a coarse stone is a good representation.
> 
> The Kitayama is pretty soft, and feels even softer. Like a pillow, and slurries readily. Good feedback and isn’t glassy. It can go for a quick soak when used for polishing, but really doesn’t have to be. I touched up my MM with it the other day, it’s smooth and effortless in use, but the edge lacks a sharp bite. Granted, I haven’t given it much of a shake for edges.. probably should.



All my SG's act that same way.


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## inferno (Apr 2, 2022)

a bit more in depth.

shapton pro 8k. feels so-so, its hard, its a fast stone. clogs very little when sharpening, clogs very little on blade sides.
does not grab blade sides when polishing them. releases minimal abrasive. this one just cuts. mirror finish.

shapton pro 12k. fast stone, hard, clogs quite a lot when sharpening but it doesn't seem to slow it down. clogs very little on sides.
starts to grab a little when surfaces get flat enough. releases almost no abrasive. this one just cuts. mirror finish.

gray glass 8k, semi fast stone, clogs a bit, feels weird in use, feels smooth with small rubber pieces embedded somehow that creates drag.
this one polishes and cuts. release almost no abrasive. mirror finish.

cerax/traditional 8k, feels ultra aggressive, you know within 1 second this will be awesome, very little clogging, releases a fair amount of abrasive.
no polishing here, it just cuts. kasumi with scratches.

green suehiro 8k. smooth and nice. clogs minimally. release a fair amount of abrasive. it just cuts. kasumi finish, no scratches.

imanishi 10k. feels kinds rubbery, clogs quite a lot. releases the most amount of abrasive. very soft so its easy to cut into it by mistake.
cuts very little polishes very much. very fine haze finish with low contrast. the abrasive slurry dries up very quickly on it and its starts dragging on the blade.

karasu 9k . feels smooth and nice, clogs very little, release a little abrasive, more than 0. quite slow cutting. kasumi finish with good contrast, no scratches.
the abrasive slurry dries up very quickly on it and its starts dragging on the blade. but not as bad as the imanishi, far from it.

naniwa 12k, don't have this anymore but i remember it clogging up quite fast, releases very little abrasive. mirror polish. this one is quite grabby on blade sides.

morihei 12k, feels medium smooth imo. clogs a bit, release quite a bit of abrasive. polishes more than it cuts. kasumi with low contrast (too little for me to keep around). the abrasive slurry dries up quite quickly on it and its starts dragging on the blade. but not as bad as the imanishi. this a no mans land stone. not really fast, not really good for mirror polishing, not really fast drying, no really good for kasumi. so it had to go.

gokumyo 20k, rock hard but it feels smooth and nice. clogs a bit but it doesn't seem to matter much. it polishes a lot and cuts quite fast. mirror polish. can become draggy on blade sides. expensive. releases next to 0 abrasive.

--------------

i think the shaptons pros have a good balance of properties for a high grit stone. they are very allround. the others are more specialized for one specific thing.

good for edges/speed - suehiros and shaptons
good for mirror finish - gok 20k, naniwa 12k, gray glass 8k.
good for kasumi - green 8k and karasu 9k

i get the feeling that the kitayama is similar to the imanishi 10k. and the imanishi would not be my first choice for a high grit stone. the imanishi 10k is very good for creating a repeatable nice finish on stainless cladding. and thats it basically.

another nice stone in this grit range is a coticule. but for a full sized one it gets expensive.


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## inferno (Apr 2, 2022)

here are my keepers. but i think the imanishi is on its way out.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 2, 2022)

Thank you @inferno for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences!


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## inferno (Apr 2, 2022)

no problem! 
i have a feeling the white 8k glass will be similar to the 8k pro but slightly faster and better


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## mpier (Apr 2, 2022)

I’d through the Snow White in the ring as well, it’s a hard stone, fast cutter but needs to be sealed or it will crack, the kitayama has others have mentioned is soft and but sweet to use. I would suggest having at least one high grit stone in your collection, you will probably find you will use it more than you think.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 2, 2022)

Am I correct that the Shapton Kuromaku is the "new" Pro?


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## M1k3 (Apr 2, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Am I correct that the Shapton Kuromaku is the "new" Pro?


Kurokamu is the JDM version.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 2, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Kurokamu is the JDM version.



JDM?


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## stringer (Apr 2, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> JDM?


Japanese domestic market


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 2, 2022)

stringer said:


> Japanese domestic market



Ah, thank you.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 2, 2022)

When was working using single bevel yanagiba & Deba used kitayama. 

Now hardly use at all. My finishing stone for mostly thin edge carbon steel is gesshin 4K. 

That is just my preference if you want to experiment with 8K go for it.


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## adam92 (Apr 2, 2022)

I tried kitayama, Karasu & Snow White, I like Snow White better, kitayama quite soft compare to others, Karasu slowest, Snow White fastest.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 2, 2022)

adam92 said:


> I tried kitayama, Karasu & Snow White, I like Snow White better, kitayama quite soft compare to others, Karasu slowest, Snow White fastest.


Is yours plastic base holder or stand alone stone?


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 2, 2022)

Also is Snow White a splash & Go stone?


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## adam92 (Apr 2, 2022)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Is yours plastic base holder or stand alone stone?





Keith Sinclair said:


> Is yours plastic base holder or stand alone stone?


Stand alone, S&G.


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## Benuser (Apr 2, 2022)

MrHiggins said:


> That said, I hardly ever use it because the edge it creates is too refined for me.
> When I do use it, I'll create the sharpest edge I can with it, then I'll drop down to a lower grit (like 3k) to create a little texture. This will create a very sharp, but potentially chippy, edge.


Any idea what is causing the chippyness?


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## MrHiggins (Apr 2, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Any idea what is causing the chippyness?


Yeah, I put a very acute angle on the edge with no microbevel.


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## bahamaroot (Apr 3, 2022)

I had a Naniwa Snow White 8k and liked it. Got a Shapton Pro 8k and like it more and sold the Snow White. No real need for an 8k but they are fun to use on real hard(64+) or wear resistant steels.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 3, 2022)

Shapton ceramic S&G stones are good. I would teach touch up techniques on them instead of using steels taught before got there. When we would get students as free labor they would be wailing away on steels. When retired started teaching at culinary school. Cherry imports sold plenty green 2K my favorite. Student discount around 37.00.


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## MarcelNL (Apr 3, 2022)

By no means I'm an expert on stones but it is remarkable and interesting to see my take home messages thus far confirmed.
I have a huge Hideriyama that can do it all and creates a very nice edge, the SP 12K creates a razorlike edge and it is great to use, yet since I got the Rika 5K I rarely use anything else (1.2K SP to start). 
(haven't taken the stupdily hard petty by Andrei to the stones)


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## riba (Apr 3, 2022)

For me this is natural stone territory. I have a sg8k and naniwa ss 10k but rarely use them.
I prefer a coticule or a jnat (after a shapton pro1K or chosera 1K).


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 3, 2022)

* Know I've said it before, the Gesshin 4K soaker is one of my all time favorite stones. 

Looked at my review on his site was 2014 know had it at least a year when made review. 
I'm on second one, not many stones can say that about. Perma soaked use it for my carbons & couple quality stainless R2 & Gensan. I have 8K Gesshin. 5K rika & 8K kitayama that used before retired. On rare occasion will use higher grit but really no need the 4K puts a great cutting edge on quality steel. He has quite a few in stock. 
*


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## Benuser (Apr 3, 2022)

bahamaroot said:


> I had a Naniwa Snow White 8k and liked it. Got a Shapton Pro 8k and like it more and sold the Snow White. No real need for an 8k but they are fun to use on real hard(64+) or wear resistant steels.


I maintain soft carbons — vintage Sabs, Sheffields and Germans — with the Snow White.


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## Juneau (Apr 3, 2022)

mpier said:


> I’d through the Snow White in the ring as well, it’s a hard stone, fast cutter but needs to be sealed or it will crack, the kitayama has others have mentioned is soft and but sweet to use. I would suggest having at least one high grit stone in your collection, you will probably find you will use it more than you think.



newbie here but how would one seal a stone?


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## tcmx3 (Apr 3, 2022)

riba said:


> For me this is natural stone territory. I have a sg8k and naniwa ss 10k but rarely use them.
> I prefer a coticule or a jnat (after a shapton pro1K or chosera 1K).



basically my experience.

you dont need an expensive stone if you just want to do edges. plenty of nice Aiiwatanis floating around, the Oouchi from JKI, etc.


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## kpham12 (Apr 3, 2022)

I picked up a Kitayama a couple years ago for the same reason. I wanted to recreate the edge on my Watanabe pro gyuto and I had read that he finishes his knives on a Kitayama. My sharpening skills were pretty bad at that point and I didn’t appreciate the stone at all. Then I got more proficient at sharpening and dug out the Kitayama again and it still took a lot more practice to get the best out of it.

Like others have said, the Kitayama 8000 is a weird stone. It doesn’t really behave like many other 8K stones. It leaves this kind of crisp, “sticky” feeling edge that just has a different kind of bite, I can’t really describe it well. I’ve read the Kitayama has natural stone powder mixed in and actually ranges from 8-12k in grit, so that maybe why, but I can’t confirm. And when used for a hybrid edge like Watanabe does with the SP1K + Kitayama 8K, it makes an edge that is very toothy and very refined at the same time which feels different from something like a 4k edge that has a nice balance of bite and refinement.

One of the potential downsides is practicality. Not many knives hold a Kitayama edge very well except really good carbon steels, although if you’re just cooking at home, this is less of a problem. For a lot of stainless, a Kitayama 8000 edge just feels a bit too slick sometimes. Wat/Toyama blue 2, Munetoshi white 2, Suien VC are some good ones that come to mind.

I find for best results getting a Kitayama edge that has that special “sticky” feeling while still having a lot of bite, soak it for a while or even overnight/permasoak, raise a slurry, do a few passes with light pressure, do some very light edge trailing/lateral stropping motions with the slurry still on the stone, then wash the slurry off and some final feather light lateral strokes on the stone without slurry. I like edge leading to finish a lot of the time, but it doesn’t work well with the Kitayama.

Do you need a Kitayama? Probably not. But it’s a unique stone that’s worth a try. There’s a reason professionals like Dave Martell, the sharpener at Korin and Watanabe and Toyama use it. Plus, at around $60, it’s on the cheaper side for an 8k stone and you can always resell it.


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## Rangen (Apr 3, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> Do you need a Kitayama? Probably not. But it’s a unique stone that’s worth a try. There’s a reason professionals like Dave Martell, the sharpener at Korin and Watanabe and Toyama use it. Plus, at around $60, it’s on the cheaper side for an 8k stone and you can always resell it.



Like @riba, I use natural stones to get that keen-but-toothy edge on good (Aizu) or really good (Nakayama or Shobu suita) carbon steel knives. But your description has me wanting a Kitayama 8000 anyway.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 3, 2022)

Thank you very much @kpham12!


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## kpham12 (Apr 3, 2022)

Rangen said:


> Like @riba, I use natural stones to get that keen-but-toothy edge on good (Aizu) or really good (Nakayama or Shobu suita) carbon steel knives. But your description has me wanting a Kitayama 8000 anyway.


Yeah, I have a small pocket sized Aizu I like for quick touch-ups, but a hybrid 1000 grit to Kitayama edge is something special. The angry bite of a low grit edge with the push cutting refinement of a high grit edge feels very nice going through food.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 3, 2022)

I can appreciate folks wanting to take steels to high levels of sharpness, polished edges. Had a 10,000 chosera that really would polish well. 
But does it cut food better? Don't think so. 

Many persons who if knife is trained over time only use one or two stones at most. Also you can after getting a burr use lighter pressure on one progression each side same angle with very light burr. Light strops also works. Like using a higher grit stone the edge get more refined.


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## branwell (Apr 4, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> Yeah, I have a small pocket sized Aizu I like for quick touch-ups, but a hybrid 1000 grit to Kitayama edge is something special. The angry bite of a low grit edge with the push cutting refinement of a high grit edge feels very nice going through food.


Yumm!!!


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## Benuser (Apr 4, 2022)

mpier said:


> I’d through the Snow White in the ring as well, it’s a hard stone, fast cutter but needs to be sealed or it will crack, the kitayama has others have mentioned is soft and but sweet to use. I would suggest having at least one high grit stone in your collection, you will probably find you will use it more than you think.


It delivers some very fine bite. Even when all bite was gone after staying too long with a Chosera 5k. Must have to do with a mix of abrasive particles.


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## Kawa (Apr 4, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> I picked up a Kitayama a couple years ago for the same reason. I wanted to recreate the edge on my Watanabe pro gyuto and I had read that he finishes his knives on a Kitayama. My sharpening skills were pretty bad at that point and I didn’t appreciate the stone at all. Then I got more proficient at sharpening and dug out the Kitayama again and it still took a lot more practice to get the best out of it.
> 
> Like others have said, the Kitayama 8000 is a weird stone. It doesn’t really behave like many other 8K stones. It leaves this kind of crisp, “sticky” feeling edge that just has a different kind of bite, I can’t really describe it well. I’ve read the Kitayama has natural stone powder mixed in and actually ranges from 8-12k in grit, so that maybe why, but I can’t confirm. And when used for a hybrid edge like Watanabe does with the SP1K + Kitayama 8K, it makes an edge that is very toothy and very refined at the same time which feels different from something like a 4k edge that has a nice balance of bite and refinement.
> 
> ...




I can confirm exactly what you write here.

Leaves a very special edge ( I havent used naturals to compare). Sticky drag on your nail: keen and razorsharp, but with lots of bite.
Carbon (white/blue) hold that edge for a long time. My stainless AUS10 doesnt. The bite leaves and you have an slick, toothless edge left.

I can also feel the 'different' gritt particles in the kitayama while sharpening.

I like the stone very much


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 4, 2022)

Bought first quality Yanagiba 20 years ago from Korin in NYC. My second was from Takeshi of A Frames. He was single then sold knives out of his house back of Palolo valley. Still working in Japanese sushi place. He brought out a bunch of Japanese knives I was in heaven never had seen so many different fine Japanese knives.

I wanted to see his yanagiba sharpening technique. So he showed me on a yellow stone with wooden base. Asked him what stone he was using, it was a kitayama. So I bought one my SB fish knives were razor sharp with that stone. Takeshi has a walk in store now selling various Japanese knives & other goods.


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## k7598 (Apr 4, 2022)

For 8k I would choose between Kitayama and Shapton Pro 8k. I prefer the Shapton since I don't do kasumi etc. In my opinion the Shapton is harder which I prefer.


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## mpier (Apr 4, 2022)

Juneau said:


> newbie here but how would one seal a stone?


Most people use a marine type Lacquer on the edges and back, there are many threads here that go over the process


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## mpier (Apr 4, 2022)

I almost exclusively use my Kitayama for my Yanagiba as part of my full progression sharpening routine I also have one in house Fillet knife I keep at a high polish for fish. The only other thing I use it for is refurbishing and it has been great for that.


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## kpham12 (Apr 4, 2022)

Keith Sinclair said:


> I can appreciate folks wanting to take steels to high levels of sharpness, polished edges. Had a 10,000 chosera that really would polish well.
> But does it cut food better? Don't think so.
> 
> Many persons who if knife is trained over time only use one or two stones at most. Also you can after getting a burr use lighter pressure on one progression each side same angle with very light burr. Light strops also works. Like using a higher grit stone the edge get more refined.





Keith Sinclair said:


> Bought first quality Yanagiba 20 years ago from Korin in NYC. My second was from Takeshi of A Frames. He was single then sold knives out of his house back of Palolo valley. Still working in Japanese sushi place. He brought out a bunch of Japanese knives I was in heaven never had seen so many different fine Japanese knives.
> 
> I wanted to see his yanagiba sharpening technique. So he showed me on a yellow stone with wooden base. Asked him what stone he was using, it was a kitayama. So I bought one my SB fish knives were razor sharp with that stone. Takeshi has a walk in store now selling various Japanese knives & other goods.



For practical use at work, I’ve been leaning on big carbon cleavers lately (one of which I recently ordered from Takeshi ) and I’ll usually take them anywhere from 1000-4000 depending on what I’m doing that day and a more polished edge is better suited for push cutting. The difference is pretty small overall and the majority of people won’t notice, but it’s there. Also polishing the core steel/area behind the edge of the cleaver to nearly mirror, which the Kitayama is great at, helps it move through food, although actual edge itself is kept at 1-4K.

Here’s a good example I found a while back, their caption does a better job of explaining it than me:


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## inferno (Apr 5, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> an 8k



so are you getting any closer to deciding on which one you want?

you probably can't go wrong whichever high grit you choose. 

personally i think the soft resinoids like the imanishi 10k and my kitayama 4k, (and i guess the kit 8k is the same, and also made by imanishi) are just a bit worse than the other types overall. when there are so many other really good high grit stones out there i mean.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 5, 2022)

inferno said:


> so are you getting any closer to deciding on which one you want?
> 
> you probably can't go wrong whichever high grit you choose.
> 
> personally i think the soft resinoids like the imanishi 10k and my kitayama 4k, (and i guess the kit 8k is the same, and also made by imanishi) are just a bit worse than the other types overall. when there are so many other really good high grit stones out there i mean.



I haven't yet no. One of the good things to come from this thread is it got me to thinking that it is entirely possible that I'd only put stainless knives on the SG4k so by the time I dove into carbons, I may have already turned away from the higher grit finish. I last finished my R2 Kurosaki on the 4k and found it way too slick so because of this thread, I've take back to a coarser finish. I only got it a few weeks ago but wanted to give the 4k another chance and wanted to see how this steel reacted. I will now also take one of my carbons and put it on the 4k and see how I feel about the edge.

In other words, I may have a falsely earned negative perception of the higher grit finish due to only using stainless that doesn't respond as well to it.

If I do find I like the higher grit on my carbons, I'm currently intrigued by the SG8k, Kitayama, and SP8k.

For now, I'm back into a research loop but armed with better knowledge and a renewed open mind.


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## inferno (Apr 5, 2022)

what are your finishing strokes on the r2 and 4k? 

on my glass 4k i do alternating "sweeps" (like in the bob kramer vid on utube. but quite light pressure, not overly light though), sweeps like a fan shape, heel to tip, edge leading. stone at 45 deg angle tilt to the right. maybe 10-15 on each side, and my r2/srs15 etc feels ultra aggressive after that. no problems on tomatos etc. its just falls though.


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## inferno (Apr 5, 2022)

i would recommend either the glass 8k white or the pro8k. they are probably the most allround ones. and also best suited for high carbide steels. 

i took a microtech s30v folder from 120 or 220 shapton pro straight to the shapton pro 12k. in about 5 minutes or so. so it definitely works on those steels. and it was almost "mirror polished" then (some stray scratches). these are fast stones.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 5, 2022)

inferno said:


> what are your finishing strokes on the r2 and 4k?
> 
> on my glass 4k i do alternating "sweeps" (like in the bob kramer vid on utube. but quite light pressure, not overly light though), sweeps like a fan shape, heel to tip, edge leading. stone at 45 deg angle tilt to the right. maybe 10-15 on each side, and my r2/srs15 etc feels ultra aggressive after that. no problems on tomatos etc. its just falls though.



Knowing me as I do, I likely ended the same way I end most sharpening sessions and that is with a series of light, alternating edge leading strokes and probably one or two trailing. What I don't remember is if I then put it on my .5um hard strop which would confound the inputs.


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## Ochazuke (Apr 5, 2022)

My kitayama 8k is probably the stone I _need_ the least out of my lineup, but it's also the only stone I have 2 of. That's how much I personally like it. Bear in mind that I also normally am sharpening single bevel white 2. Kitayama 8k and shirogami 2 are a match made in heaven in my opinion.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 5, 2022)

Have several shapton pro's they don't have feedback like soakers that used for decades mostly large King 1K stones 5K rika both sold at Cherry Imports. Cherry also carries Shapton pro's & glass stones. I've wanted to try the glass but the stone holder is over 100.00. 

The pro's plastic case is the stone holder, pure splash & go, very dish resistant. They cut well even though feel slick compared to soakers. Very convenient in pro kitchen just splash water on it put fresh edge on you knife in no time. Wish I had used them at work only found out when my friend at Cherry told me about them when started teaching. Sushi chefs use polishing grits to touch up their SB knives.


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## PineWood (Apr 8, 2022)

Kitayama touch-up
Just a little test, never tried my Kitayama to touch up.
Kisuke Manaka Blue #1, before: a little dull, still slicing printer paper but with some resistance
Result after maybe 2 min on Kitayama, medium pressure: yes, very sharp again. You can see deeper dents are still there.
I totally can imagine this one stone is enough for sushi chefs for daily maintenance to keep the edge screaming sharp without loosing much steel.





before




after


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## inferno (Apr 8, 2022)

PineWood said:


> I totally can imagine this one stone is enough for sushi chefs for daily maintenance to keep the edge screaming sharp without loosing much steel.



ALL high grit stones that i have tried is enough for daily maintenance for sushi chefs. there is nothing magic with this or that stone imo. it might feel like magic if its your only high grit stone. but if you have 2? then what? half as magic or twice as magic? 

all stones are different, there is no good or bad. its just different.

if i get chips in the edge i dont even bother anymore to grind them out fully. unless very severe. they'll be gone is a few sharpenings. and the food doesn't seem to care either


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## Barmoley (Apr 8, 2022)

I've arrived to the same conclusion, micro chips, that I used to freak out over before, don't seem to interfere with food cutting as much as I was certain they had to. These are mostly detectable when cutting paper towels, but even then not as much as I feared.

What causes more of an issue for me are rolls and deformations of the edge because in these places the edge becomes very dull and needs fixing. Micro chips unless large are much less of a problem. I am sure it is different when cutting very soft products, such as raw fish or similar.


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## PineWood (Apr 8, 2022)

inferno said:


> ALL high grit stones that i have tried is enough for daily maintenance for sushi chefs. there is nothing magic with this or that stone imo. it might feel like magic if its your only high grit stone.


Sure, I didn't mean to say the Kitayama is better, I've read your comparison and appreciate your insights!
I was just curious about what I read, never used an 8K stone for touch-ups before, normally I would go 2K or Aoto or BBW and then finish on a Suita.
I wanted to share my little test because it contributes to the original question: "Do I want/need an 8K stone?" I would say yes, it could even be your only stone if you can avoid big chips and use the stone regularly.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 8, 2022)

Of coarse yanagiba not like a regular chef knife at all. Only cutting fish. Just the way the single bevel edge meets the hollow grind backside of blade. Some of sharpest edges on any knife.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 8, 2022)

I have a twitchy retail therapy finger so...

For these high grit stones do you guys flatten them with your standard flattening stone? Do you dress them afterward? If so, with what?


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## branwell (Apr 8, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> For these high grit stones do you guys flatten them with your standard flattening stone? Do you dress them afterward? If so, with what?


On the occasion a finisher needs flattening, I use a 140 grit diamond plate. For dressing I mostly use a small blue DMT plate, about 320 grit but sometimes use a chunk of Aoto, or a King or Suehiro dressing stone, orrrrr...... Its worth trying a bunch of things.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 9, 2022)

Diamond plates for all stones. Haven't bought any in a while. Most 140, have 400 & 600 too that use to lessen scratches thinning knives before going to stones. 

For a while the Atoma plates got cheaper that's when I bought several. Not teaching anymore since before Covid have couple 140 Atoma in good shape to keep my stones beveled & leveled.


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## KingShapton (Apr 9, 2022)

High grit synth. stones = Atoma 400 and done


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## Benuser (Apr 9, 2022)

Haven't experienced problems when using the Atoma 140 on fine or even very fine synthetic stones, up to 8k. But I don't use them for razors. With knifes, the rough surface it leaves will only speed up the first few sharpenings. 
With Belgian Blue, Coticule and Arks I use a well worn Atoma 140, essentially to counter glazing. Dishing hardly occurs with those.
I don't use the Atoma any longer for thinning knives, as it leaves far too deep scratches. The speed advantage the Atoma delivers is largely undone by the time required to get rid of them.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 9, 2022)

Wanting to kick off some research, I posted a thread about a possible custom. Some of you responded as did many others. Looked at pictures of so many different knives and read so many descriptions and was contemplating my own uses and so on.

Started feeling a bit anxious. I suffer from Adult Pattern Maleness which is to say I'm a little boy with a debit card so with a couple mouse clicks my anxiety was calmed and a Shapton Kuromaku 8000 is on the way. 

Probably not as nice as the Glass but at $60 it was worth giving it a try. I mean, it's for my emotional health so really it's like medicine right?

That's what I'm gonna try on my wife when she gets up from her nap.


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## BillHanna (Apr 9, 2022)

Self care is the most important care. That’s what I’m gonna say when a box from Oz, and a box from OR show up.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 9, 2022)

BillHanna said:


> Self care is the most important care. That’s what I’m gonna say when a box from Oz, and a box from OR show up.



Amen brother Bill.


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## KingShapton (Apr 10, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Wanting to kick off some research, I posted a thread about a possible custom. Some of you responded as did many others. Looked at pictures of so many different knives and read so many descriptions and was contemplating my own uses and so on.
> 
> Started feeling a bit anxious. I suffer from Adult Pattern Maleness which is to say I'm a little boy with a debit card so with a couple mouse clicks my anxiety was calmed and a Shapton Kuromaku 8000 is on the way.
> 
> ...


Solid choice! Emotional health is important and the stone is a good one.


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## Grayswandir (Apr 10, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Wanting to kick off some research, I posted a thread about a possible custom. Some of you responded as did many others. Looked at pictures of so many different knives and read so many descriptions and was contemplating my own uses and so on.
> 
> Started feeling a bit anxious. I suffer from Adult Pattern Maleness which is to say I'm a little boy with a debit card so with a couple mouse clicks my anxiety was calmed and a Shapton Kuromaku 8000 is on the way.
> 
> ...


I like the Kuromaku stones. They're economical and fast. I used the Kuromaku 1.5k for setting bevels on straight razors and you can't beat the price ($40.00). I've read that the 120 grit Kuromaku is better then some of the more popular diamond plates, and costs half the price.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 12, 2022)

Maiden voyage. Definitely liking the feel of this stone. Time will tell on performance but it for sure makes for a refined edge.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 14, 2022)

Just picked up a stone deff. don't need. What the heck. 12,000 Shapton Pro. 61$ free shipping. It loaded almost immediately took a 600 grit atoms lapped it a little kept spraying water on stone to keep it loose. 12K edge on my Yanagiba. It's so polished reflects everything. Needless to say very sharp.


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## inferno (Apr 14, 2022)

the 12k shapton is my fav high grit stone. its very very fast.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 14, 2022)

inferno said:


> the 12k shapton is my fav high grit stone. its very very fast.



In this context, what does fast mean? Not being a smartass, honest question.


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## inferno (Apr 14, 2022)

fast means that you can go from a 220 straight to this one without ever missing the 1k, 3k and 8k inbetween. and i've dont it myself with s30v. it takes about 1 min more than a full progression. and they said you needed diamonds. i just wanted to prove that this was BS. and i did, with macro pics to prove it.

everybody shut the **** up after that though, or said the "edge was better" with diamonds...

but according to the general consensus i wouldn't have been able to do what i did at all. but i did. because i knew it would work.


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## inferno (Apr 14, 2022)

you can basically use a 12k pro as your only stone if you want. imo. its fast enough.


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## inferno (Apr 14, 2022)

i really mean it bill! you should try it.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 14, 2022)

12K edge on Usuba. When bought this knife years ago, sharpest out of the box even to this day. Love those single bevels.


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## Benuser (Apr 14, 2022)

inferno said:


> fast means that you can go from a 220 straight to this one without ever missing the 1k, 3k and 8k inbetween. and i've dont it myself with s30v. it takes about 1 min more than a full progression. and they said you needed diamonds. i just wanted to prove that this was BS. and i did, with macro pics to prove it.
> 
> everybody shut the **** up after that though, or said the "edge was better" with diamonds...
> 
> but according to the general consensus i wouldn't have been able to do what i did at all. but i did. because i knew it would work.


 I remember old discussions about finest stones, some being called better polishers and others better sharpeners. Some for the looks and some for the edge. This information is most relevant, as it makes this stone a realistic solution even without a progression of some six other stones before it.
More stones means more problems.


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## daveb (Apr 14, 2022)

Too much OT to actually sharpen anything but just picked up the SP12000 from Amazon. Should be fun.


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## M1k3 (Apr 15, 2022)

daveb said:


> Too much OT to actually sharpen anything but just picked up the SP12000 from Amazon. Should be fun.


Quick in hand touch up while in the middle of the shift. Bonus points for doing it with your eyes closed


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## deanb (Apr 15, 2022)

I’ve had the SP 12000 for many years and I love it.


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## Benuser (Apr 16, 2022)

People in Europe might be interested.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 16, 2022)

Boy this thread really kicked off Shapton Pro's


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## inferno (Apr 16, 2022)

daveb said:


> Too much OT to actually sharpen anything but just picked up the SP12000 from Amazon. Should be fun.



you will probably be very happy with it. its at least 2-3-4x as fast as any jnat in existance and much, much, sharper too. and no one complains about the jnats.


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## inferno (Apr 16, 2022)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Boy this thread really kicked off Shapton Pro's



to be honest the shapton pro 8k and 12k are some of the best high grit stones you can get. so why not get these?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 16, 2022)

inferno said:


> to be honest the shapton pro 8k and 12k are some of the best high grit stones you can get. so why not get these?



Would you got for these before a J-Nat? That's the new question that's been on my mind.


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## daveb (Apr 16, 2022)

Jnats are a zen thing that can't be realized with manufactured stones. Sure the manufactured ones work more better, are more predictable and are more readily available but you can't sit by the waterfall, in a state of inner bliss, while rubbing on a fake rock.


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## inferno (Apr 16, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Would you got for these before a J-Nat? That's the new question that's been on my mind.



because they are consistent. you know what you get. and all of them are the same. and all of them are faster than jnats. even the 12k ones.

i have jnats too. that i use maybe 1x a year. because they are simply to slow. and its a gamble when you get them. a very expensive gamble. 
with my synths there is jo gambling. almost at least. some of the high grit ones i think i was the first to actually test and review online. but most of them have been around for 10-15 years. and you know what you get here.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 16, 2022)

daveb said:


> Jnats are a zen thing that can't be realized with manufactured stones. Sure the manufactured ones work more better, are more predictable and are more readily available but you can't sit by the waterfall, in a state of inner bliss, while rubbing on a fake rock.



Stamped vs. forged.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 16, 2022)

inferno said:


> because they are consistent. you know what you get. and all of them are the same. and all of them are faster than jnats. even the 12k ones.
> 
> i have jnats too. that i use maybe 1x a year. because they are simply to slow. and its a gamble when you get them. a very expensive gamble.
> with my synths there is jo gambling. almost at least. some of the high grit ones i think i was the first to actually test and review online. but most of them have been around for 10-15 years. and you know what you get here.



I'm at a stage in life where I'm less interested in romance and more interested in results.


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## inferno (Apr 16, 2022)

then forget about jnats imo.


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## inferno (Apr 16, 2022)

i have never been in the stage of life where i felt i was more interested in romance than results so for me its was performance 100% then when i had that down. i felt i could at least try jnats. i mean i could be missing out on something. but to be honest i dont think i was. they are simply not high enough performance. by far. ymmv though. who knows.

do i want to spend 5 minutes on a suita or 1 minute on a 6k? or a 12k? same **** either way in the end.


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## inferno (Apr 16, 2022)

you know what. i started out with a 1k chosera and a UF spyderco. 

then i expanded to a 2k glass
4k glass 
500
220
6k
8k/12 same time

but in retrospect i think i could get by with just the 3k glass. 500 glass. and any high grit 10-12k. preferably the 12k pro. and also a truly good razor stone for my razors like the gok 20k. 

thats all you need really. and some people dont need a 12k. so they can get an 8k. or 6k as their high grit. 

now i think i have 40 stones and have probably had 20 more. but whats fun and whats really needed thats 2 different things. i mean no one really *needs* more than a 1k. lets be honest. but hey what a ****** place it would be if we all had only 1k's.. dont you think? i think so at least. 

dont hold back!!


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 16, 2022)

inferno said:


> you know what. i started out with a 1k chosera and a UF spyderco.
> 
> then i expanded to a 2k glass
> 4k glass
> ...




I remember hearing Shawn Houston (@Deadboxhero) comment on finding a three stone combo that works for you and it made a lot of sense. Everything else is just playing around, which I'm all up for but yeah, a good three stone set is all most folks really need.


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## esoo (Apr 16, 2022)

SG500, SG3K and SP12K make a pretty darn good set for kitchen use. This is my preferred set for the last 6 months.


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## KingShapton (Apr 17, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I remember hearing Shawn Houston (@Deadboxhero) comment on finding a three stone combo that works for you and it made a lot of sense. Everything else is just playing around, which I'm all up for but yeah, a good three stone set is all most folks really need.






inferno said:


> but in retrospect i think i could get by with just the 3k glass. 500 glass. and any high grit 10-12k.


I completely agree with this basic idea.

The selection of stones is always user-dependent and personal. But in fact a set of 2-4 stones is all you need realistically.


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2022)

Tried the SP12k on three carbons, Misono Swedish, Masahiro VC (Takefu's V2 series) and Suien VC (Aogami #2), directly after NP800. Very happy to say this is no polisher! It eases the NP scratch pattern without leaving a glossy high polish with no bite I'm certainly not looking for. Very fast, precise, hard as you may expect from a Shapton. I didn't notice much feedback so far, but that may come with me getting used to it. At least no damped feeling as with a Chosera 5k where there is no feedback at all. I'm really surprised by its speed. It didn't take longer than an intermediate stone would, and although I wasn't particularly careful in deburring on the NP800, it was done in no time.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 17, 2022)

inferno said:


> to be honest the shapton pro 8k and 12k are some of the best high grit stones you can get. so why not get these?



Bought the 12K because have two 8K soakers. 

To be honest had 10K chosera sold it years ago.


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## KingShapton (Apr 17, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Tried the SP12k on three carbons, Misono Swedish, Masahiro VC (Takefu's V2 series) and Suien VC (Aogami #2), directly after NP800. Very happy to say this is no polisher! It eases the NP scratch pattern without leaving a glossy high polish with no bite I'm certainly not looking for. Very fast, precise, hard as you may expect from a Shapton. I didn't notice much feedback so far, but that may come with me getting used to it. At least no damped feeling as with a Chosera 5k where there is no feedback at all. I'm really surprised by its speed. It didn't take longer than an intermediate stone would, and although I wasn't particularly careful in deburring on the NP800, it was done in no time.


Sounds like a promising candidate for a hybrid edge. I'll have to try that soon.


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## Atso_J (Apr 17, 2022)

Just to weigh in here I'm really happy with my Shapton Kuromaku series 8k. Single bevel, double bevel, stainless, carbon, everything. Not that expensive but doesn't seem to wear much either so probably gonna end up in my estate's junk box in the end


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Tried the SP12k on three carbons, Misono Swedish, Masahiro VC (Takefu's V2 series) and Suien VC (Aogami #2), directly after NP800. Very happy to say this is no polisher! It eases the NP scratch pattern without leaving a glossy high polish with no bite I'm certainly not looking for. Very fast, precise, hard as you may expect from a Shapton. I didn't notice much feedback so far, but that may come with me getting used to it. At least no damped feeling as with a Chosera 5k where there is no feedback at all. I'm really surprised by its speed. It didn't take longer than an intermediate stone would, and although I wasn't particularly careful in deburring on the NP800, it was done in no time.


Next day. Using a NP2k in between, just for deburring. Had noticed the edges weren't that stable, and usually, after the NP800, quite some stuff comes off the edge. Where was it gone? So, same procedure, same knives, NP800, a few strokes on the NP2k, followed by SP12k. You won't hear me about the lack of feedback again. The stone is crazy hard, but lets me feel whether some burr is left. Some buttery feeling.
And I now noticed the auditory element. The blades start singing once the edge is all right.


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## ModRQC (Apr 17, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Next day. Using a NP2k in between, just for deburring. Had noticed the edges weren't that stable, and usually, after the NP800, quite some stuff comes off the edge. Where was it gone? So, same procedure, same knives, NP800, a few strokes on the NP2k, followed by SP12k. You won't hear me about the lack of feedback again. The stone is crazy hard, but lets me feel whether some burr is left. Some buttery feeling.
> And I now noticed the auditory element. The blades start singing once the edge is all right.



I'm curious if you're using it to actually refine or additional deburring only?


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> I'm curious if you're using it to actually refine or additional deburring only?


It must have been the deburring that had failed the first day. I can't see much refinement in the scratch pattern, and that wasn't my goal so far.


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## Deadboxhero (Apr 18, 2022)

Yeah I think the big problem is people are over polishing the living hell out of their edges resulting in less bite and grab at the edge which makes it slide on pepper and tomato skin really easy.

What also happens when you use too many stones is your convexity starts to stack resulting in an edge that's a lot more rounded over.

The objective should be an edge that is very crisp and burr free that has enough polish for making clean cuts in the flesh with enough bite to grab on the skin of things.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 18, 2022)

Deadboxhero said:


> Yeah I think the big problem is people are over polishing the living hell out of their edges resulting in less bite and grab at the edge which makes it slide on pepper and tomato skin really easy.
> 
> What also happens when you use too many stones is your convexity starts to stack resulting in an edge that's a lot more rounded over.
> 
> The objective should be an edge that is very crisp and burr free that has enough polish for making clean cuts in the flesh with enough bite to grab on the skin of things.



I'm playing with an 8k edge right now just to see what I think. It's a thin slicey knife in AS and so far it is performing very well. But, I was very conscious of limiting my time on the stone. Just a little more than touch-up style approach on each side. The very first thing I did was cut a tomato and was pleasantly surprised when it sliced right through.

But the same knife off my SG4k half slid off a tomato before. I chalk that up to time on the stone and the approach. No doubt I over-polished the edge on the 4k before.

The learning continues.


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## Benuser (Apr 19, 2022)

Very pleased the SP12k doesn't overly polish taking away any bite as I've experienced with the SG4k. 4k-ish stone
The number 12 shouldn't make you worry. The stone's properties are much more complex, as I've learnt in that discussion.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 19, 2022)

Gesshin 4K gives a edge on carbon gyuto's that's hard to beat as cutting ability goes. It's pretty aggressive for 4K stone. 

So far just used SP 12K on single bevel knives. 
I'll play with it some more on high hardness # gyuto's. Have SP 5K really like that & 2K for quick touch up stones.


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## inferno (Apr 29, 2022)

none of the shaptons pros polish for jack ****. if you want polish get the superstones. the shaptons just cut. thats it. its gets finer and finer, but there is never any type of polishing going on. except maybe for the gray glass 6 and 8k.

but other than that, shaptons don't polish. its just pure performance. and i'm highly surprised all you ****ers just found out about these stones just now. can you show me the stone i need to crawl under and stay there? i am willing to take a week off. for the experience alone.


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## Se1ryu (Jul 2, 2022)

inferno said:


> to be honest the shapton pro 8k and 12k are some of the best high grit stones you can get. so why not get these?





inferno said:


> here are my keepers. but i think the imanishi is on its way out.
> 
> View attachment 173143
> 
> View attachment 173144


I take the Imanishi


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