# BDN1 and the Arashiyama 1k



## 2bApical? (Feb 16, 2019)

After watching burrfection's edge retention video on the Nexus BDN1 which did over 600 cuts on rope I would like to get a stone that will be effective on it as a might sometime in the future get that knife. It is a 63 with no vanadium. In theory, and more than in theory especially since Ken Onion is now using BDN1 this steel looks just fantastic. Hard, great edge retention and no vanadium carbides. What more could one want? I'm just a home cook for myself and want the least work possible. The edge retention in comparison to almost everything burrfection put it up against is hard to get out of my mind. I'm using a VG-10 knife as my main instrument now. Here's another question . Someone said that BDN1 doesn't have the finesse of higher end steels. While I just want a sharp knife to do very routine prep is there really that much difference in finesse if the knife is razor or near razor sharp.? I have no experience with high end knives. Thanks, 2b


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## Pensacola Tiger (Feb 16, 2019)

Hmm. How much rope do you generally prep in a week? Got any good recipes?

Let's talk real world use of knives in a home environment. Edge retention ranks pretty low in priority because you almost always have time to touch up an edge if necessary, unlike professionals who need the edge to last through a shift. What ranks pretty high is the geometry - a knife that is sufficiently thin behind the edge with an excellent grind will be perceived as an excellent performer regardless of the steel. 

However, should you decide to chase exotic steels, the best stones to get to easily maintain those knives are the 1000/6000 diamond stone set from JKI, at least in my experience. Initial cost is a bit high, but they are worth every penny.


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## lemeneid (Feb 17, 2019)

Lol Burrfection.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 17, 2019)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Hmm. How much rope do you generally prep in a week? Got any good recipes?
> 
> Let's talk real world use of knives in a home environment. Edge retention ranks pretty low in priority because you almost always have time to touch up an edge if necessary, unlike professionals who need the edge to last through a shift. What ranks pretty high is the geometry - a knife that is sufficiently thin behind the edge with an excellent grind will be perceived as an excellent performer regardless of the steel.
> 
> However, should you decide to chase exotic steels, the best stones to get to easily maintain those knives are the 1000/6000 diamond stone set from JKI, at least in my experience. Initial cost is a bit high, but they are worth every penny.







I live on this stuff, how much longer is anyone's guess. The gristle is very rough on steel.


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## lemeneid (Feb 17, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> I live on this stuff, how much longer is anyone's guess. The gristle is very rough on steel.


If you’re having problems with edge retention, thin your knife and finish it on a lower grit. If you’re cutting hard crusty food like this all the time, you don’t need such a super sharp knife that will get dull after cutting hard foods.
Or consider getting serrated knives.


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## Knife2meatu (Feb 17, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> [...] I would like to get a stone that will be effective... It is a 63 with no vanadium. [...]



Rockwell hardness will have little impact on which stones you can use; the common abrasives are vastly harder. And considering the lack vanadium carbides, both aluminium oxide and silicon carbide will cut everything else in the steel.

I believe you could very well go with any of the old standbys: Bester if you like a soak; Shapton Ha No Kuromaku if you want to save some coin; Chosera if you want to splurge on sharpening feeling. You could get it done with a Sharp Pebble, if you are so inclined.

edit: Your title mentions the Arashiyama 1k, although you do not in your post -- that would work too.


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## galvaude (Feb 17, 2019)

For prepping rope you should finish on a DMT coarse.

Burrfection is a clown


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## psfred (Feb 17, 2019)

First, there is no miracle steel, they all can be sharpened and will hold a decent edge in home use. How you use the knife and what you are cutting on will have a much greater effect on edge retention that the steel, with a few exceptions.

Cutting rope is totally irrelevant to food preparation -- it's only an issue if you are working a sailing ship and doing rigging repairs. I'd use a D2 knife for that anyway -- those "nasty" vanadium and chromium carbides well embedded in hard steel make edges that last forever. Takes forever to sharpen, too, and you really need a diamond plate if you want to get them sharp before you die of old age.

If you do not now have one, get an end grain cutting board. Toss all the plastic, (shudder) glass, or edge grain ones, they all are rough on edges. DO NOT ever rock chop with a VG-10 knife, ever, under any circumstances, you will chip the edge for sure, then ram the remaining edge down on the metal chips. If you cannot train yourself to avoid rock chopping, get a Wustof or Henkles traditional steel knife, you will be much happier (and won't have to sharpen so much).

There is nothing at all wrong with vanadium carbides, in CroMoVa steels they provide very long edge life and great wear resistance, at the cost of requiring rather obtuse sharpening angles and the proper use of a steel. Those type of knives are very popular, for good reason. Not my cup of tea, but then I'm willing to put up with the requirements of very hard, thin knives. Your choice, just make sure you use either of them correctly.

I sharpen my knives a couple times a year, more often for the carbon steel one (a really cheap Korean knife very obviously "rescued" from scrap steel). I don't use them every day, if I did I would probably need to sharpen a bit more often. Worst problem I have is other people using them wrong, chips all over the edges of my Tojiros from being rammed into the silverware dish drainer and use to cut pills (grrrr).

Sharpening thin, very hard steel knives is very different than sharpening soft, fat CoMoVa knives, and how you sharpen them is often dependent upon what you are doing with them. Raw meat cutting requires a little more "tooth" for clean cuts than vegetables, where super sharp and highly polished works great. I compromise, by sharpening on a 1200 Bester followed by one of my 6k stones, then strop on chromium oxide on wood. This usually results in a well poslished edge, but I don't work the 6k very hard so I have some roughness ("tooth") left for meat cutting. My Korean knife get used for veggies only, so I polish it up to at least 8k -- I like to cut paper thin onions for instance. Never use it on meat, it's too short.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 17, 2019)

Knife2meatu said:


> Rockwell hardness will have little impact on which stones you can use; the common abrasives are vastly harder. And considering the lack vanadium carbides, both aluminium oxide and silicon carbide will cut everything else in the steel.
> 
> I believe you could very well go with any of the old standbys: Bester if you like a soak; Shapton Ha No Kuromaku if you want to save some coin; Chosera if you want to splurge on sharpening feeling. You could get it done with a Sharp Pebble, if you are so inclined.
> 
> edit: Your title mentions the Arashiyama 1k, although you do not in your post -- that would work too.


Thanks, that clarifies it.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 17, 2019)

galvaude said:


> For prepping rope you should finish on a DMT coarse.
> 
> Burrfection is a clown


 Clown or no clown this is very impressive.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 17, 2019)

psfred said:


> First, there is no miracle steel, they all can be sharpened and will hold a decent edge in home use. How you use the knife and what you are cutting on will have a much greater effect on edge retention that the steel, with a few exceptions.
> 
> Cutting rope is totally irrelevant to food preparation -- it's only an issue if you are working a sailing ship and doing rigging repairs. I'd use a D2 knife for that anyway -- those "nasty" vanadium and chromium carbides well embedded in hard steel make edges that last forever. Takes forever to sharpen, too, and you really need a diamond plate if you want to get them sharp before you die of old age.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. As to rope cutting being irrelevant I find that pretty hard to believe. My guess is rope is rougher on a edge than potatoes , onions , carrots and chicken. I could be wrong but I doubt it. I do use plastic so it's a good suggestion to go to end grain if it really make that much of a difference. I find that knives go dull very quickly and would like to improve the situation.


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## Xenif (Feb 17, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> Clown or no clown this is very impressive.


How is using an unknown amount of force to chomp on rope "impressive" or tell me what edge retention I might get in a real kitchen ? 

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/02/11/can-catra-predict-rope-cutting-performance/

^^^THIS is "impressive"

Also you guys need to stop calling Burrfection a clown. Underneath all that make up, clowns are people and they have feelings and can be offended your comments.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 17, 2019)

Xenif said:


> How is using an unknown amount of force to chomp on rope "impressive" or tell me what edge retention I might get in a real kitchen ?
> 
> https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/02/11/can-catra-predict-rope-cutting-performance/
> 
> ...






Much of this I could not understand. It seems some of the graphs don't have enough info. I just looked at it quick. According to this chart the CATRA prediction pretty much falls apart from 20cv on up to 10v. My birthday is coming up if anyone want to send me a 8 inch chef's knife with a 15 degree angle made with 10v and a everyday maintenance stone, or in this case an every 2 months maintenance stone. Odd I don't see VG-10 here. Is it under another name. Thanks for the info.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 17, 2019)

Its almost like the most imporant variables that correlate with dulling a knife in kitchen are 

1) organic fiber (wood cutting boards)
2) organic fiber (food)
3) pH (in solution)

heaven forbid I want a knife that doesn't dull
when the edge is tested against cutting "organic fibres" 
...and is stainless and corrosion resistant


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## Nemo (Feb 17, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> Much of this I could not understand. It seems some of the graphs don't have enough info. I just looked at it quick. According to this chart the CATRA prediction pretty much falls apart from 20cv on up to 10v. My birthday is coming up if anyone want to send me a 8 inch chef's knife with a 15 degree angle made with 10v and a everyday maintenance stone, or in this case an every 2 months maintenance stone. Odd I don't see VG-10 here. Is it under another name. Thanks for the info.


Don't just look at it quick.

I find Larrin's articles to be packed with information and analysis, so they require pretty intense concentration to propperly absorb. They are full of science (formulating a hypothesis and testing it), which is s rare enough commodity in the knife world.

You would do well to read his stuff thoroughly and carefully. And be ready to throw out some assumptions.


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## galvaude (Feb 17, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> Clown or no clown this is very impressive.




It’s all good if you are impress by such things. I’m not and this video proves that is a clown even more.


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## daveb (Feb 17, 2019)

Citing BF and Ken Onion in same post........

Pull up a chair and sit a spell.


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## Michi (Feb 17, 2019)

$60 for a knife that's made out of a good steel. Hard to beat in terms of value for money. It'll run rings around a German knife in terms of edge retention, and it's stain resistant and won't need to be babied along all the time.

Not a knife for a knife geek. But it does look like a quality knife for a good price. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this to someone who wants to move up from cheap supermarket or soft-steel German knives. If they don't like it, at $60, it's not the end of the world.

Another one that's good value for money is the Ikea Briljera knife. VG10 blade and good F&F. I get to cut with this knife once a week at a friend's place. The big belly isn't for everyone. But it cuts well and holds its edge well. I'd say it's superior to a Wüsthof by quite some margin, and at a fraction of the price. Good everyday knife for a "normal" kitchen.


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## psfred (Feb 17, 2019)

The only think I can think of that resembles hemp rope that I would cut in the kitchen is the stem on a squash or celery, there is nothing else with that much hard cellulose in it. 

Edges fail in three major ways: edge bending (lower hardness knives), actual edge abrasion, and chipping/microchipping. Soft steels that fail by bending can be restored to sharpness with a steel, and this is still the mainstay knife type in butchering, for the simple reason that one has to keep a knife sharp and working for a whole shift, it's not possible to stop and hone one up. Abrasion and chipping failures require re-sharpening, the edge cannot be restored with a steel unless it's really something like a sintered ruby or abrasive ceramic hone in the shape of a rod.

Cutting rope works fine with a micro-serrated edge, so microchipping may not make a knife in that use "dull", while it would not cut vegetables well.

For food use, I'd not pay much attention to how much cardboard or rope a knife can cut, I don't personally think that use translates into cooking very well. Different kind of sharpness -- a knife that still cuts rope may crush onions and I want my onions to slice effortlessly. No "sawing" them for me.

Impact on a cutting board or twisting a very hard thin brittle edge will do far more damage than cutting rope. 

Plastic cutting boards are also very un-hygenic, too -- the knife cuts reseal with bacteria trapped inside, protected from bleach or other sanitizers, only to be released again when the board is re-used. Wood board contain large amounts of fixed tannins, and kill bacteria even when poorly washed between uses.


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## daveb (Feb 17, 2019)

Fred, Glad you stopped by today - missed you.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 17, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> I'm just a home cook for myself and want the least work possible.



When you say "least work possible", you mean least time resharpening your blade? I'm also a home cook and getting a proper end grain board was a game changer for me regarding edge retention and comfort (got this one: http://www.theboardsmith.com/product/black-cherry-butcher-block/ ).

You shouldn't worry about having to resharpen your blades. Do you know how to do it? Once you learn the skill and use the right equipment, it becomes a simple, even gratifying task.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 17, 2019)

Don't take offence 2bApical?, some of these guys just don't know how to answer a question without sarcasm and contempt.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 17, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Don't take offence 2bApical?, some of these guys just don't know how to answer a question without sarcasm and contempt.



Not my intention at all. Simply trying to help. When i first got to this forum, i didn't know how to sharpen and i still have lots to learn.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 17, 2019)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Not my intention at all. Simply trying to help. When i first got to this forum, i didn't know how to sharpen and i still have lots to learn.


Not directed at you, it just happened to follow your post.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 17, 2019)

No problem. Just wanted to clarify my position!


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## 2bApical? (Feb 18, 2019)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> When you say "least work possible", you mean least time resharpening your blade? I'm also a home cook and getting a proper end grain board was a game changer for me regarding edge retention and comfort (got this one: http://www.theboardsmith.com/product/black-cherry-butcher-block/ ).
> 
> You shouldn't worry about having to resharpen your blades. Do you know how to do it? Once you learn the skill and use the right equipment, it becomes a simple, even gratifying task.


Thanks for the input. Sure seems like an end grain board should be something to get soon. I can get my knives kinda sharp enough with the inexpensive stones I have but I am not happy with how quick they get dull. I am almost ready to pull the plug on a 1000 grit and that should up my game considerably. I have never used one of the famous stones and what I have now is likely no where near 1000.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 18, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Don't take offence 2bApical?, some of these guys just don't know how to answer a question without sarcasm and contempt.


Thanks for the thought bahamaroot but I don't take offence, I give it.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 18, 2019)

To cut thru the BS in this thread, here's my advice...

Buy a second-generation stone in 1k like chosera, king hyper, shapton pro etc.
These stones are engineered to cut just about every modern / stainless etc steel.
All of the old stones like king and naniwa and suehiro basic lines are best on carbon steels.

So if you are looking at exotic steels, just be safe and buy
a more recent stone formulation like the above or similar from JKI or JNS.

Arishiyama stones I have no idea if they are older design or not,
but the Kitayama and Arishiyama 6k have been around for ages.

So either ask around specifically (a retailer, etc) of just skip them.


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## Lazyboy (Feb 18, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> ... Sure seems like an end grain board should be something to get soon...



or soft hinoki board (japanese cypress), or any one of many soft boards around (eg synthetic rubber): there's a number of threads here on what boards people use. Many DON'T use end grain for a variety of reasons.


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