# Advice on Ceramic Hones



## Marek07 (Aug 27, 2016)

From reading this forum, it would seem if you are going to use a ceramic hone sparingly & judiciously, the preferred one is a Mac Black with an Idahone in second place. Please correct me if this is wrong. In addition to some "real" steels, I currently have a very cheap ceramic hone from Ikea and would like to get a Mac Black.

I can get the 10" Mac Black delivered for AUD$80 (US$60) but would like to ask if anyone has bought/used the 10" black ceramic sold by Chef's Armoury? It is a "home brand" they have made for them and is AUD$10 less than the Mac. 

Alternatively, I could save money by buying a 10" Idahone for considerably less. Even a 12" Idahone would be a cheaper option.

Thanks


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 27, 2016)

The best rod hone I have used, and the only one I can recommend, is a sintered ruby hone, the Sieger Long-life. I've tried the MAC Black and the Idahone and they don'e come close to the Sieger.

http://www.fishpond.com.au/Kitchen/Sieger-Long-Life-Ruby-Sharpening-Steel-28cm/9999653651955


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## Marek07 (Aug 27, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> The best rod hone I have used, and the only one I can recommend, is a sintered ruby hone, the Sieger Long-life. I've tried the MAC Black and the Idahone and they don'e come close to the Sieger.
> 
> http://www.fishpond.com.au/Kitchen/Sieger-Long-Life-Ruby-Sharpening-Steel-28cm/9999653651955



Wow! Strong recommendation indeed - and thanks for the Aussie link. BTW, I have read your "to hone or not to hone" thread.

However, at almost double the cost of a Black Mac, it's a $$$ question for me. I could save AUD$40 by getting the 8" version but that would probably be a tad too small for me. Can I ask you for more specifics... Why doesn't the Mac Black come close? In which way is the Sieger better in operation?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 27, 2016)

Marek07 said:


> Wow! Strong recommendation indeed - and thanks for the Aussie link. BTW, I have read your "to hone or not to hone" thread.
> 
> However, at almost double the cost of a Black Mac, it's a $$$ question for me. I could save AUD$40 by getting the 8" version but that would probably be a tad too small for me. Can I ask you for more specifics... Why doesn't the Mac Black come close? In which way is the Sieger better in operation?



Yeah, the price can be a a bit of a dealbreaker, but you're only going to buy it once, unless you break it. 

As to why I think the Sieger is better than the MAC Black, I can only say that the edge I get with it is much better than the edge I was getting with a MAC Black. I don't have any microscopic views of the edge, just my own judgement of the edge I get. I'll admit that I was very skeptical when I bought mine (an 8" from NewWestKnifeworks), but I was convinced after the first use. By the way, I find the 8" works just fine with knives up to 240 mm.


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## zitangy (Aug 28, 2016)

Hmnn.. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A45I2QU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 this one is 8 inches long and price is USd 69.72...

rgds D


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## preizzo (Aug 28, 2016)

I tried the zwillig green ceramic hones and it worked on all my ss knife just fine. 
For my carbon I use a lather stuck on a piece of wood


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 28, 2016)

zitangy said:


> Hmnn.. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A45I2QU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 this one is 8 inches long and price is USd 69.72...
> 
> rgds D



Yes, that's the one I have, at a significantly lower price than I paid.


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## NO ChoP! (Aug 28, 2016)

I have the DMT hones in several varying grits and rather like them.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 28, 2016)

Probably the cheapest place to get the Sieger Long-Life (I bought it from there):

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Profi-syn-Ru...hash=item41959c2e21:m:marwdR7NDWvQh3cRpLa_vAg

Around 50 bucks for the short one and 70 for the long one. They do worldwide shipping.


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## Marek07 (Aug 28, 2016)

Thank you all.

It looks as though the Sieger Long-life gets the love/votes - if you're going to use a "steel" at all. Unfortunately, the eBay seller suggested by @bennyprofane excludes Australia from their shipping. :-( 
However, the fishpond.com.au site originally suggested by Pensacola Tiger does the 8" for only a couple of dollars more.  
Amazon are not an option as shipping almost doubles the cost. :-(((

But before I bite the bullet, have any Aussie KKF folk tried the Chef's Armoury offering? Would love to hear from you before committing to the Sieger.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 28, 2016)

The great thing about the Sieger, it removes a lot of metal (comparable to a 500 grit stone) but leaves a fine edge (comparable to a 2000 grit stone). I guess that makes it quite unique. That said, I still prefer using my stones and use the Sieger mainly for my cheaper stainless and carbon knives, great for the regular touch up they need. It does remove so much metal that you just need a few light swipes. You could even use it as the only means of sharpening, you can make a dull blade very sharp with it.


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## panda (Aug 28, 2016)

This thing sounds awesome, definitely added to 'save for later' list.


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## Marek07 (Aug 30, 2016)

Thank you all.

With no response on the local black ceramic, my choice seems to be between the Sieger 8" at ~US$64.50 or the Mac Black 10" at ~$US60.50. The reason I still have the Mac Black in my sights is that it is longer for the $$$ and the Sieger sounds quite aggressive despite the praise for its edge. I generally prefer stones (400>1k>3k>8k - the Khao Men currently being used in place of 3k) followed by stropping but wanted a better rod hone for quick but gentle fixes on lower quality knives including stainless.

Any final thoughts before I bite the bullet?


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## chinacats (Aug 30, 2016)

Marek07 said:


> Thank you all.
> 
> With no response on the local black ceramic, my choice seems to be between the Sieger 8" at ~US$64.50 or the Mac Black 10" at ~$US60.50. The reason I still have the Mac Black in my sights is that it is longer for the $$$ and the Sieger sounds quite aggressive despite the praise for its edge. I generally prefer stones (400>1k>3k>8k - the Khao Men currently being used in place of 3k) followed by stropping but wanted a better rod hone for quick but gentle fixes on lower quality knives including stainless.
> 
> Any final thoughts before I bite the bullet?



Best advice I can give is that I'd go with whatever Rick (Pensacola tiger) suggested over my thoughts every time. I'd skip the Mac and go with the ruby.

Other final thought is that I have a few hones including a twelve inch and I only use about a third of it at any time...that said, it's been a long time since I've used any steel on anything other than my old French carbons...and the ceramic one I have sits unused.


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## Marek07 (Aug 30, 2016)

Thanks!
Advice heeded, bullet bitten, Sieger on its way.


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## Benuser (Aug 30, 2016)

Excellent choice. The Sieger is very effective in deburring, other rods tend to accumulate debris on top and thus creating a wire edge.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 30, 2016)

Btw, the Sieger is so fast cutting that it loads with steel very quickly, you can easily wash it with dishsoap and a sponge.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 30, 2016)

In my experience, three passes per side is all that is needed.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 30, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> In my experience, three passes per side is all that is needed.



Do you also use it for your better knives?


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 30, 2016)

Benny, We've kicked around this topic in the recent past. Seems there is no clear "best practices" when it comes to ceramic hones. Some pro's swear by a ver strokes here and there during service, even on GOOD knives. I think the general consensus is that hones work best on softer steels (<60HRC). Some people on the forum, have stated that a ceramic hone on a hard steel can cause micro cracks up the blade. 

give it a try, just use smooth light strokes and watch the tip section. I think its best to hold the rod perpendicular to the counter top, the stroke the rod. Don't do what Gordon Ramsey does waving both the knife and hone around. Nonsense.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 30, 2016)

Thanks for your answer, Mucho. The Sieger works fine, even on 67 HRC steel (the sintered ruby might be the only rod recommended for harder steels) but I choose not to use it for my better knives as it removes a lot of steel which is perhaps unnecessary for touch ups, instead I'm experimenting with fine natural stones (Ohira Suita) for touch ups. I do like using my Sieger for my cheaper "for the family" knives and it works great for that. But you are right that for harder knives light pressure and caution are advised.

My question was just curiosity how and for what PT uses his Sieger.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 30, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Thanks for your answer, Mucho. The Sieger works fine, even on 67 HRC steel (the sintered ruby might be the only rod recommended for harder steels) but I choose not to use it for my better knives as it removes a lot of steel which is perhaps unnecessary for touch ups, instead I'm experimenting with fine natural stones (Ohira Suita) for touch ups. I do like using my Sieger for my cheaper "for the family" knives and it works great for that. But you are right that for harder knives light pressure and caution are advised.
> 
> My question was just curiosity how and for what PT uses his Sieger.



I use it when I need to touch up an edge and I have no time to get out my 6000 JKI diamond stone. I've not seen that it removes a lot of steel, and wonder why your experience is different.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 30, 2016)

Perhaps, I'm not getting it right but I read that it removes like a 500 stone and also when you swipe the blade over it, it leaves a silvery line on the stick. A coarse stone always removes more than a fine stone, no?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 30, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Perhaps, I'm not getting it right but I read that it removes like a 500 stone and also when you swipe the blade over it, it leaves a silvery line on the stick. A coarse stone always removes more than a fine stone, no?



All other things being equal, a coarse stone should remove more metal that a fine stone. 

I'm curious where you read that it cuts like a 500 grit stone.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 30, 2016)

I read it in the German Messerforum (I think someone by the company who had organised a pass-around was also involved, might have been his quote). 

I guess the other reason I'm not using it, is that another user here (sharpchef) has warned me that a rod puts very punctual pressure on the blade which could put too much strain on it. Also, since I'm only home cooking I haven't had the need for it in a way.

I gave it to my father who had been using a sharpmaker and he loves it, uses it as the only means of sharpening.


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## Benuser (Aug 30, 2016)

Use it for the touch-ups only or your blades get very thick behind the edge.


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## chinacats (Aug 30, 2016)

LIGHT (almost no) pressure...


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 30, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> I read it in the German Messerforum (I think someone by the company who had organised a pass-around was also involved, might have been his quote).
> 
> I guess the other reason I'm not using it, is that another user here (sharpchef) has warned me that a rod puts very punctual pressure on the blade which could put too much strain on it. Also, since I'm only home cooking I haven't had the need for it in a way.
> 
> I gave it to my father who had been using a sharpmaker and he loves it, uses it as the only means of sharpening.



Thanks for the reply. 

Yes, if you don't use a rod hone properly you can damage the edge. With the proper technique, it's not damaging to the knife. The key is to use very little pressure. 

I consider it to be similar to stropping on a stone, but more convenient. It's not a replacement for sharpening on stones.


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## daveb (Aug 30, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Do you also use it for your better knives?



All of Rick's knives are "better" knives. Pay attention Benny:cool2:


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 30, 2016)

chinacats said:


> LIGHT (almost no) pressure...



The rod will last forever if you use no pressure at all.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 30, 2016)

Since there is more than a bit of interest here, I thought I'd offer an opportunity for the community to try it.

I've created a pass around sign up thread here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...g-life-Sintered-Ruby-Hone?p=434734#post434734


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## wphill (Aug 30, 2016)

I have an idahone. Wakes up my soft steel. For a j-knife, takes a very deft hand to both keep pressure light and the angle consistent.
I use leading and trailing strokes. My results are so-so, but a knife nut that drops in from time to time...gets much better results.
Ergo, more skill in using one than most people think...and I don't think whatever skill I have on stones translates. If so,
I would be getting better results.


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Since there is more than a bit of interest here, I thought I'd offer an opportunity for the community to try it.
> 
> I've created a pass around sign up thread here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...g-life-Sintered-Ruby-Hone?p=434734#post434734



Wow!


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## Marek07 (Aug 31, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Since there is more than a bit of interest here, I thought I'd offer an opportunity for the community to try it.
> 
> I've created a pass around sign up thread here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...g-life-Sintered-Ruby-Hone?p=434734#post434734



Excellent Rick!

I'm ineligible for the pass around - not a supporter (yet!) and not on the right continent (ever?). However, I'll be keeping abreast of the comments. Might even post one once mine arrives - if that's OK.


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Perhaps, I'm not getting it right but I read that it removes like a 500 stone and also when you swipe the blade over it, it leaves a silvery line on the stick. A coarse stone always removes more than a fine stone, no?



That 500 is probably according to the European standard FEPA, more or less equivalent to JIS 1200.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 31, 2016)

I think he was speaking of JIS values because he also said it leaves a finish like a 2000 and FEPA 2000 would be a bit much. I also think it's definitely faster than the grey sharpmaker rods and I think they are 700 or 800.


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2016)

I've tried the Sieger for cutting a single-sided micro-bevel on a very soft carbon. No good idea, but it was a bit of an emergency case: just willing to show someone the working of such a bevel. Much slower than a Chosera 2k.


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## Marek07 (Sep 19, 2016)

Well folks, it's been almost three weeks and I remain Sieger-less. 

Placed an order for the 20cm one but after a week or so I got an email from fishpond.com.au saying the supplier hadn't responded so they cancelled the order and a refund was processed. Thinking this was a stock problem with the shorter version, I ordered the more expensive 28cm version (always wanted this one). Today, another email from fishpond.com.au with the same story. Grrrr!

So... is there any out there that knows of a supplier of the Sieger long life sintered ruby hone, I'd love to know their name. Otherwise I might be forced to choose the Mac Black and that was definitely a distant 2nd choice. Or perhaps the knife gods are telling me something... no hones for you (& your knives). 
Hmmm :scratchhead:


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## Nife (Sep 20, 2016)

You can try Ebay. There are several for sale with most sellers being in the United States. Some sellers ship internationally. You can email sellers that state the ship to some countries to find out if they will ship to you and how much it will cost. Ebay gives you some protection to get a refund if you get a bad seller.


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## Marek07 (Sep 27, 2016)

Thanks for your suggestions Nife. eBay proved rather expensive but I finally got somewhere after contacting a friend in Germany. They found the manufacturer's website (http://www.boker.de/) but unfortunately they didn't ship to Australia. They did give however me a wholesaler in Australia, L&M Retail Pty Ltd. 

So... for any Australian or New Zealand forum members looking for a Sieger, go to http://www.lmretail.com.au/. The website is seriously threadbare but there is a contact phone number there and they can supply the Sieger at a reasonable price. The 20cm is AUD$93 and the 28cm is AUD$140 - both prices include delivery.


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## Marek07 (Oct 27, 2016)

OK - took an extra month but my Sieger arrived today. Love it! but with qualifications.

I'll probably never use it on my better blades - yes, I have many that aren't. I've tried it on a couple of Wusties, VG10s and a couple of supermarket knives. The results have been very pleasing. Certainly not the same as a quick stone touch up but if you need the knife you're using to perform better quickly, it's up to the task. Of course, one can always rotate to another knife. Surprisingly, in my initial testing, it was gentle edge leading strokes that seemed to produce a better result. I had assumed that edge trailing stokes would have been the way to go. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Will I ever use it on my Japanese knives or customs? - almost definitely not. But with lesser knives, it will make you smile... in seconds. Thank you all for your advice. Rick - sorry to hear the passaround didn't eventuate - it would have been good to hear everyone's comments.


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## panda (Oct 27, 2016)

why not use it on jknives?


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## Marek07 (Oct 27, 2016)

panda said:


> why not use it on jknives?


Frankly, I'm too scared to try. I'm not a professional so my needs aren't as immediate. I have other knives I can turn to or I can take my time with a stone. There is no pressure on me to get back a serviceable edge on a particular knife. In truth, I almost never let a knife deteriorate that much before hitting at least a 3k stone. Over the years I've used a Zwilling round steel, an F. Dick oval steel, an Eze-Lap diamond hone (savage on steel) and a cheap Ikea ceramic hone. I was relatively OK using them on German knives, Globals and garden variety SS knives. Too many forum members warn against using them on J-knives so I'm taking that advice on board. Perhaps it's just simple economics - I don't want to risk screwing up a more expensive knife when I know a few minutes on stones will achieve the result I'm after... and last longer too. Perhaps one day I'll try a couple of edge trailing strokes on a Tanaka beater but I'm not ready yet. Still, glad overall that I got the Sieger - better than anything else hand held.

I still recall your advice: "*LIGHT (almost no) pressure... *" in post #27. Even more cautious going forward.


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## panda (Oct 27, 2016)

Don't be scared just try it. If the edge gets beat up from it you can just resharpen it on stones. No big deal.

I really want to get one but only of it's an upgrade over mac black.


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## daveb (Oct 27, 2016)

I've been using P Tiger's Sieger for a couple three weeks now. I've found it to nicely refresh an edge during a prep session. (I measure tomatoes and peppers by the case and onions by the bag, no such thing as ea. here.) I've used it on my Watanabe Nakiri, a Tanaka G and even my $750.00 Gengetsu:cool2:

I've not compared it to my DMT rod. Like many I was reluctant to ever use the "steel" on JKnives. I'll do that this week and be done.

I would prefer the edge from stropping on a stone but in reality the valid comparison is to stop on a steel or not strop at all.

@Panda - if you asked Rick nicely, maybe it could travel east next week instead of back north.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Oct 27, 2016)

daveb said:


> I've been using P Tiger's Sieger for a couple three weeks now. I've found it to nicely refresh an edge during a prep session. (I measure tomatoes and peppers by the case and onions by the bag, no such thing as ea. here.) I've used it on my Watanabe Nakiri, a Tanaka G and even my $750.00 Gengetsu:cool2:
> 
> I've not compared it to my DMT rod. Like many I was reluctant to ever use the "steel" on JKnives. I'll do that this week and be done.
> 
> ...



Panda - Drop me a PM if you're interested.

Rick


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## Marek07 (Nov 7, 2016)

panda said:


> Don't be scared just try it. If the edge gets beat up from it you can just resharpen it on stones. No big deal.
> 
> I really want to get one but only of it's an upgrade over mac black.


Well, I've tried the Sieger out on a variety of knives then cautiously followed your advice and very gently approached a few harder Japanese knives. The results? Quite good actually - not the same as a touch up session on a stone followed by a strop but a noticeable, albeit subtle improvement in cutting performance. Again I found that edge-leading strokes produced the better result but I still finished with edge-trailing - around 3 leading followed by one trailing.

On a side note, using the Sieger quickly showed up any minor irregularities that existed on the edge - more readily than a test paper cut would show. A finger test would not show it at all unless it involved blood. Not that it fixed the problem, just showed me a problem existed. So... off to the stones!

Can't comment on the Mac Black as I've never used one.


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## panda (Dec 7, 2016)

so i got to try the sieger thanks to p-cola (thanks rick) and i came away impressed. it works fast and very aggressive (my guess is a toothy 1k edge), i will go so far as to say it actually cuts a new edge if used carefully. like marek stated above, this one provides feedback on the condition of your edge while you are using it which was a bit unexpected since the mac offers no feedback due to dampening (it absorbs all the feedback instead of reflecting it back through the edge)

i am still keeping the mac rod to use for my gyutos because it leaves a more refined edge, but sieger for everything else (parer/petty/suji/beater)


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