# Whetstone Double Bevel Knife Sharpening simplified...How to guide.



## Mucho Bocho (Feb 23, 2017)

I wanted to start a post, to help those new and old on my simplified way to sharpen knives on Whetstones. I've been around a while and have handled/sharpened hundreds of knives. I started with a DMT diamond block setup, then moved Edge Pro super deluxe exquisite model. The kit had over 100 pieces. Then for the last five or six years, have moved on to synthetic stones and eventually natural stones.

I will say from my experience, there is a lot of hocius pocius going on out there in the sharpening world. From technique to materials. OH My, conjecture and perceptions are all over the place. With this post, I'd like to share what I've learned that will give the fastest possible sharpest longest lasting edge. 

My methodology.
In dealing with hard steels >60 HRC, the steel primarily looses its sharpness because the apex has been mechanically abraded. But usually, the keenness on the apex can be refreshed by just removing the smallest about of metal. I personal think the biggest mistake people make when sharpening on whetstones is their taking way too much steel off the edge and prematurely aging the knife. I also don't think that its necessary to create a burr on anything less that very rounded edges. If you study the sharpening videos from our KKF smiths (Catcheside, Anderson, Dalman), they finish their edges with the most modest materials, strokes and pressure.

Also, I'm not a fan or believe in pastes, sprays, felt... I have it all and its not necessary and only complicates/confuses things and makes it that much harder to maintain consistency. 

My Materials:
Unless I'm thinning a worn knife, my current set-up is:

Japanese Knife Imports Diamond 1K & 6K
Soft coarse no-name JNS Nagura
2.5VL somewhat soft Aiitwani renge
3.0LV somewhat course Ohira natural stone
4.5LV Ohira Suita hard and full of purple and red Renge
5.0LV Ozuku Suita very hard, creamy, fine

Technique:
1.) Setting the bevel:
Wet 1K, using light strokes alternate between edge trailing and edge leading strokes at the angle you want to set your bevel at. Usually that means a lower angle on the right side and a higher angle on the left. All your trying to do at this stage is to establish the primary bevel and put some some gnarly teeth on it. It should feel ultra bity and clean of any burr. Don't expect this 1K edge to perform any tricks yet.

2.) Refining the bevel:
Wet a 6K stone and sharpen the right and left side, gently at the same angle as the 1K. Go easy. might only take a few strokes on each side. Then finish with edge trailing stropping on that stone. In this step, you're trying to refine a very toothy edge, you should feel the edge bite more, but not be as grabby. With this technique, don't expect tricks off a 6K stone either. 

3.) Sharpening the apex:
Depending on the harness and type of steel I'm sharpening, I'll choose a finishing progression. Lets say I'm doing a Kato WH. I'd start with the Soft Ohira/nagura. I always leave the stones to dry naturally so their covered in mud anyway. 

What your trying to achieve in sharpening the apex is to both remove the shoulder and refine the primary bevel. 

After building up some slurry, start sharpening at an angle lower than when you were setting the bevel. With a few light passes on each side. Your trying to remove any shoulder created in steps 1 & 2. Then go back again and sharpen both sides at the angle you sharpened in steps 1 & 2. Again, just a few light strokes. Then again, trail edge strokes at bevel setting angle. 

4.) Refining the Apex:
This is where it gets fun. Now you should have an edge that is grabby but refined, should have immediate bite, no finger slip. You can stop at this stage or jump off the cliff. If I'm doing hard Japanese carbon knives, I'll use the Ozuku with a diamond nagura slurry. Same technique as Step 3. Starting first pass removing the shoulder, then the second pass sharpening at bevel setting angle. 

No felt, cork, denim, chromium oxide, balsa... is necessary to create and edge that will immediate slice into rolled phone book paper. Technique works every time on every steel, and blade profile. Hope that helps.

dennis


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## inzite (Feb 23, 2017)

lovely share! thanks my friend!


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 23, 2017)

Interesting post. I agree that one could sharpen a knife taking much less material than it's done using only synthethics. 
When you say "remove the shoulder" at a lower angle, i relate to thinning a knife each time it's sharpened.
JKI 1k & 6k stones rock, and they make a huge difference at setting the bevel/refinning it on harder to sharpen steels.


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 23, 2017)

Marcelo, Yea, "thinning" is another confusing knife term too. In its essence, thinning and sharpening are techniques that remove metal. The difference is that thinning usually means your grinding away on a neglected knife, with a low grit stone on the blade face at least a cm or two up and on both sides. After a proper thinning, refinishing is required (as some of us know, takes three to four times longer to refinish than to sharpen). 

However, with this sharpening approach, depending on the knife, you'll wont have to THIN the knife because as you sharpen you're thinning and sharpening as you go.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 23, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> However, with this sharpening approach, depending on the knife, you'll wont have to THIN the knife because as you sharpen you're thinning and sharpening as you go.



I agree, that's what i meant by saying "thinning a knife each time it's sharpened".

Anyway, that's a great idea to post your method in order to help others. Thanks!


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## Ruso (Feb 23, 2017)

While I do not use strops during sharpening session, I find the few quick passes on diamond loaded leather refresh the edge quite well.

I not too sure what do you mean by:"_It should feel ultra bity and clean of any burr."_ in your first step. Do you suggest deburr on 1K before progressing further?


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## Badgertooth (Feb 24, 2017)

I was gonna pm you about your perfect progression and here it is. Thank you Dennis. Lot of hard earned wisdom here


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## dwalker (Feb 24, 2017)

Thanks for the post Mucho, I have just recently been able to achieve a burr free edge off of my finishers without cork, stropping, ect. I have not been able to do so off of my 1k king deluxe, although I have not put much effort into it. I was operating under the assumption that burr removal was not terribly important until the finisher. Please set me straight on this.


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 24, 2017)

Hum, the issue with not removing the burr on the first stone, is that from that point forward, you won't be able to tell what your edge feels like. You'll be feeling the burr instead of a clean apex. 

Look at Jon's, Wil's, Chris's, Robin's, Kramer, Carter videos, as soon as they put the knife to stone, they move it a small amount, then feel, then move it some more, then feel. Now each of them has more experience than the rest of us combined, but the fact is that you have to touch the edge a lot to know if your on the right track. Especially the tip and heel. I also use a 10X loupe just to see how even the apex bevel is and what the scratch pattern looks like.

Soooo, If I were to burr a knife, I'd work it off on my first stone with edge leading/trailing strokes at or just above sharpening angle. C. Andersons technique of edge leading strokes has given me cleaner grabbier edges (THANKS CHRIS).

When your finished, you should not have any/minimal shoulder and just the smallest glimmer of light at the edge.



dwalker said:


> I was operating under the assumption that burr removal was not terribly important until the finisher. Please set me straight on this.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 24, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> C. Andersons technique of edge leading strokes has given me cleaner grabbier edges (THANKS CHRIS).



Mucho, which technique is that? Thanks in advance!


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 24, 2017)

Can someone here post Chris Anderson's trail leading stropping/sharpening technique video. 

I can't overstate how this technique (though not easily mastered) has been a milestone in my sharpening journey.


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## erezj (Feb 25, 2017)

First of all, great post!

I have a follow up question, I kind of go through the motions you describe, and my knifes come out very sharp, they easily pass the thumb nail test and push cutting paper, but.... 

How do you measure how long the edge lasts?

For me, after a very short session, they fail the thumb nail test (the edge slides on the nail), they still pass the push cutting test for a few more sessions. Is this what you guys experience?

I am 99.99% sure there is no burr left.
I use it on Carbon Heiji and Shig.

Appreciate your inputs


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 25, 2017)

erezj, Your edges should still shave arm hair after a session of chopping no problem. Couple thoughts, push cutting paper doesn't mean much. Any good knife even with a dull edge will push cut paper with proper technique. 

You might check your angles. Last Heiji I sharpened was DaveB. I remember it being very asymmetric and the primary bevel angle was sharpened quite steep too. 

If your angles look right, you might have a wire on the edge. Try the J-stroke and deburring by sliding the edge perpendicular across the blade. Then check on wood or cork.


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## Benuser (Feb 25, 2017)

erezj said:


> First of all, great post!
> 
> I have a follow up question, I kind of go through the motions you describe, and my knifes come out very sharp, they easily pass the thumb nail test and push cutting paper, but....
> 
> ...



The nail test may produce false negative results with only slightly dulled strongly asymmetric edges. To verify, test the other side as well.


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## idemhj (Feb 25, 2017)

Here is - I suppose - the C. Anderson video Mucho is referring to:

[video=youtube;qhs7d5rANdY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhs7d5rANdY[/video]

The edge leading stropping motion is at the end


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## cyberbaton (Feb 26, 2017)

Wow, that's helpful, Mucho thanks for the post


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## fatboylim (Feb 27, 2017)

Mucho awesome guide.


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## Badgertooth (Feb 27, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Can someone here post Chris Anderson's trail leading stropping/sharpening technique video.
> 
> I can't overstate how this technique (though not easily mastered) has been a milestone in my sharpening journey.



Well... wouldn't you know it.

I was very skeptical. Where is the puddle of inky mud?

I've just tried this and even with my ridiculously wobbly left hand as my draw-hand on the flip side of my knife (I usually never swop hands) this just gave me a noticeable improvement in the bi-directionally of my edges. My edges were alway fierce slicers but only passable pushers. 

Thank you Dennis. As much for this as for the lesson in humility - we are never done learning.


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## unprofessional_chef (Feb 27, 2017)

You should never cut into the stone (don't apply pressure on edge leading pass). You'll grind the teeth off the edge.


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## YG420 (Feb 27, 2017)

That Chris Anderson vid is very intriguing to me. I've seen it before but never thought of the teeth pointing in different directions. I wonder how this technique does on a jnat where most of the time you'd want to build up a little mud.


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## XooMG (Feb 27, 2017)

YG420 said:


> That Chris Anderson vid is very intriguing to me. I've seen it before but never thought of the teeth pointing in different directions. I wonder how this technique does on a jnat where most of the time you'd want to build up a little mud.


I finish on naturals and usually end with no slurry or very faint slurry. I do not use the same technique Mr. Anderson does, but getting an interference scratch pattern works without respect to the stone being natural or artificial.


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## Badgertooth (Feb 28, 2017)

Yeah I finished on a stone which I paid extra attention to cleaning before use. And I used just water, no mud.


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## KJDedge (Mar 4, 2017)

Mucho...... I used a wicked edge pro for years on German knives and had great results...
Recently got better knives..Haburn,HHH,dalman,Catcheside, and JNS 300,800,6000 and a Jnat...
After obsessing over precise angles on wicked edge, it seems virtually impossible to really maintain a 
Precise angle along a single edge, let alone when you do the other side... 1) is it possible? 2) does it really matter?
3)angle near the tip really seems imprecise cause you have to lift the handle up a bit?
Anyway stones seem very imprecise to me


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## valgard (Mar 4, 2017)

KJDedge said:


> Recently got better knives..Haburn,HHH,dalman,Catcheside



Just a tinny bit better, you will be wanting to upgrade in no time :rofl:


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## malexthekid (Mar 4, 2017)

KJDedge said:


> Mucho...... I used a wicked edge pro for years on German knives and had great results...
> Recently got better knives..Haburn,HHH,dalman,Catcheside, and JNS 300,800,6000 and a Jnat...
> After obsessing over precise angles on wicked edge, it seems virtually impossible to really maintain a
> Precise angle along a single edge, let alone when you do the other side... 1) is it possible? 2) does it really matter?
> ...



1) anything is possible but 2) no it doesn't. You just need to hold the angle that is on the edge... and you have a premade guide for that... 3) not really. If you do it properly you should still be maintaining that angle the lifting is just making sure you are sharpening the tip all the way. Watch Jon's sharpening videos on the JKI youtube channel for better explanations.


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## Bolek (Mar 6, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Technique:
> 1.) Setting the bevel:
> Wet 1K, using light strokes alternate between edge trailing and edge leading strokes at the angle you want to set your bevel at. *Usually that means a lower angle on the right side and a higher angle on the left.* All your trying to do at this stage is to establish the primary bevel and put some some gnarly teeth on it. It should feel ultra bity and clean of any burr. Don't expect this 1K edge to perform any tricks yet.
> 
> ...


Are you rghrt handed or left hander ?
For a singel bevel for right handed only the right side is sharpened i.e. right side is e.g. 15° left side is 0° so right side angle is higer than the left side. How does it aplies to a 2 bevels knif ?


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## Badgertooth (Mar 6, 2017)

Most double bevels are ground with a bit of a right hand bias even if it's in the form of more convexity on the omote (outward face) of the blade than the ura side which is sometimes more sheer and flat ground. You'd kinda just have to feel it out when trying this technique above. Listen for it to when you're sharpening. It's why freehand is more meditative and skilful than the cold sterility of guided systems.


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## Bolek (Mar 6, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> Most double bevels are ground with a bit of a right hand bias even if it's in the form of more convexity on the omote (outward face) of the blade than the ura side which is sometimes more sheer and flat ground. You'd kinda just have to feel it out when trying this technique above. Listen for it to when you're sharpening. It's why freehand is more meditative and skilful than the cold sterility of guided systems.


What do you mean by right hand bias ? (I am not fluent in English). 
I thought that the ura is only for singel bevel knives.
In short what are you recomending as assymetry for a nomal chefs knif ?


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## Mucho Bocho (Mar 6, 2017)

Bolek, The title says what the post is about--double bevel knife sharpening. The knives we discuss here are almost always designed for right hand, with only a few brands making left handed knives. Right handed knife angles would be something like (left side / right side) 30/70, 10/90 even 50/50. (of course im listing arbitrary angles). You can buy knives (single and double bevel) that are left handed 70/30, 90/10... You'll pay more for it too. 


Are you rghrt handed or left hander ?
For a singel bevel for right handed only the right side is sharpened i.e. right side is e.g. 15° left side is 0° so right side angle is higer than the left side. How does it aplies to a 2 bevels knif ?


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## Bolek (Mar 6, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Bolek, The title says what the post is about--double bevel knife sharpening. The knives we discuss here are almost always designed for right hand, with only a few brands making left handed knives. Right handed knife angles would be something like (left side / right side) 30/70, 10/90 even 50/50. (of course im listing arbitrary angles). You can buy knives (single and double bevel) that are left handed 70/30, 90/10... You'll pay more for it too.
> 
> 
> Are you rghrt handed or left hander ?
> For a singel bevel for right handed only the right side is sharpened i.e. right side is e.g. 15° left side is 0° so right side angle is higer than the left side. How does it aplies to a 2 bevels knif ?



Mucho, Im right handed but as I have not understood what does mean : Usually that means a lower angle on the right side and a higher angle on the left. I asked a question to be sure which side is left and which one is right or what is an angle bigger than another. Now I hope I got It e.g. for a right handed 20°, left side / right side 30/70 knife, Ill have 6° on left side and 14° on right side. 
Up to now I only reproduced/ followed the edge put on the knife by the previous owner. Maybe I should experiment some improvement.
Thanks for your patience.


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## Mucho Bocho (Mar 6, 2017)

Bolek, Remember that we're talking about asymmetrical edges, to the actual bevel apex is off-center from the center of the knife. The asymmetry plus the grind will give the knife a right or the opposite, left handed bias. That's why when you sharpen, the left side of the blade has a tiny bevel, and the right side usually has more convexing and a wide bevel. Hope that makes sense.


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