# Battle of 240 AS: Kurosaki vs Kanehiro vs Shibata Kotetsu



## Tonsku38 (Apr 27, 2018)

I need new gyuto for pro environment. I have Yoshikazu Ikeda W2 and I don't like profile, edge retention or reactive cladding so as steel stainless clad is my choice. 

I think I will use it for almost every job but mostly for soft and root veggies.

I hate wedging and bad food release and I like blade to be quite stiff. I also have Nambu santoku which I like a lot and it seems to have same kind of grind and finish as Kanehiro. I think Kurosaki looks best and has been my want to knife for many years. Kotetsu seems to be great performer. Too hard to decide!


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## inzite (Apr 27, 2018)

wedging and food release are on opposite sides of the spectrum usually.

its like asking for a cleaver than can do bone and also cut coins from carrots.


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## Tonsku38 (Apr 27, 2018)

inzite said:


> wedging and food release are on opposite sides of the spectrum usually.
> 
> its like asking for a cleaver than can do bone and also cut coins from carrots.



I know but Kotetsu food realease looks pretty good on this video and I think doesn't wedge much.
https://youtu.be/p9_f6Os8AZA


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## Consequence (Apr 27, 2018)

i would recommend the kintaro knives, you can choose your flavour depending on preference but the white steel, aogami super are carbon steels, stainless clad though.
theres also kintaro r2 and gingami which are more stainless and what i would go for in pro environment, the R2 being powder steel and would have superb edge retention.
i wouldnt recommend kurosaki as i have experienced poor qc and seen many of his knives come with overgrinds or subpar heat treats. his knives are a thing of the past for me.
shibata kotetsu is too thin and very fragile IMO and i wouldnt recommend it.
good luck!


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## Jville (Apr 28, 2018)

I'd ho with the kanehiro, but I've heard the kurasaki is really similiar. So if that's the one you like the most than I'd go with that. Shibata are awesome imo, but they are still lasers. The food release is not as great as the kanehiro imo. Although I've only used the kashima, which is shorter. Maybe the taller ones might be a little better. The shibata have nice convexing given there thinness, but again still lasers.


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## Consequence (Apr 28, 2018)

Jville said:


> I'd ho with the kanehiro, but I've heard the kurasaki is really similiar. So if that's the one you like the most than I'd go with that. Shibata are awesome imo, but they are still lasers. The food release is not as great as the kanehiro imo. Although I've only used the kashima, which is shorter. Maybe the taller ones might be a little better. The shibata have nice convexing given there thinness, but again still lasers.



kurosaki's quality has really dropped over the years. it seems to me he is more business oriented now rather than knife-maker oriented. i think the kintaro will perform better than the shibata in terms of food release because it has a convex grind style and a shoulder where food would release easily. i also think the heat treats on kintaro are better than kurosaki heat treats. people rave about his white steel and AS heat treats, and his ginsan is nice too. his r2 is definitely harder than kurosaki's one. Think of kurosaki's heat treats as the lower end of the echizen smiths. 

the shibata kotetsu that is relatively flat and thin, and things may get stuck and may be hard to release.
also like i said, with that level of thin-ness in the blade and tip chipping or tip breakage has a high chance of occurring especially so in a pro kitchen where he may not have the time to baby the knives. i've seen many kotetsus with broken tips or chips due to user error and i don't really recommend it for a pro environment.


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## Bensbites (Apr 28, 2018)

Look at makoto, yus older brother. How about takeda?


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## Tonsku38 (Apr 29, 2018)

I think Kanehiro/Kintaro is top of my list but haven't found it on EU stores so price will rise cos of tax and duty. Is there any other choices in this price range?


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## Ivang (Apr 30, 2018)

Hi. I have a kurosaki r2 that I use in a pro setting and it's bad ass. It's the third kurosaki knife I've handled and they were all great, there was variation, but overall very similar, the same can be said of other takefu makers in my experience, similar grinds and profiles, as well as very good steels and heat treats.
I'd take a look at tanakas r2 offerings as well, and if you are really looking for food release, nothing beats a takeda.


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## Nemo (Apr 30, 2018)

Consequence said:


> kurosaki's quality has really dropped over the years. it seems to me he is more business oriented now rather than knife-maker oriented. ... Think of kurosaki's heat treats as the lower end of the echizen smiths.



Interesting point of view which I had not heard before. Just wondering what is the basis on which you say that?


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## doudou (May 1, 2018)

All knife you mentioned are not good choice for AS steel. the heat treat is out sourced and the HRC is only 62-63. not very impressive for AS. I have shiro kamo's AS gyuto and Sukenari's AS. Sukenari\s AS is way much better with water quench HT. it's sharper and last longer. maybe you should try with Masakage's AS line. or you should just make one shot with TF' denka line. 66-67HRC HT


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## Nemo (May 1, 2018)

Are you saying that the only determinant of a good HT the hardness that is obtained?

I'm interested to know the source of your infor,ation that the HT for the listed knives is outsourced.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 1, 2018)

Isn't Takeda usually heat treating his AS to the lower 60s, and liked by professionals? Is the Denka HT really general purpose suitable if it is 66+, or always a hair away from microchipping?


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## Barmoley (May 1, 2018)

Ive been wondering too, specifically about denka ht, it is often mentioned that it is very good, one of the best for AS, and also very hard and long lasting. So do people see chipping, but are ok with it as a compromise or the edges dont chip even at such a high hardness?


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## Consequence (May 1, 2018)

Nemo said:


> Interesting point of view which I had not heard before. Just wondering what is the basis on which you say that?


His old work had hand chiseled kanji on his AS kurouchi line. And the grinds were pretty workhorse esque with nice heft to them. Good feeling. When the new batch came in they all had lasered kanji and alnost felt like lasers. The heat treat felt kind of gummy when I Compare to kamo or sukenari heat treats which are crisp and nice but not too hard. His Old heat treats were nice and sort of in the now discontinued hiromoto AS range. 

I got. My hands on one of his R2 hammered line. It was ok but had a big overgrind at the heel. It was about 2cm long almost. To me that says bad quality control and is not easy to fix for most people Although it is repairable. Although these could just be lemons that i handled, i suspect its due to poor QC and a focus on output rather than quality.
But if you get a good piece you're fine. Just check and make sure
Disclaimer : this is purely my opinion and i dont know about his knives right now and their quality. Take what i say with a considerable pinch of salt


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## Consequence (May 1, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> Ive been wondering too, specifically about denka ht, it is often mentioned that it is very good, one of the best for AS, and also very hard and long lasting. So do people see chipping, but are ok with it as a compromise or the edges dont chip even at such a high hardness?



Theres bound to be chipping possible at that level of hardness. Im a believer that chipping is due to user error and that more care has to be taken with harder knives, especially the ones made by Mr Fujiwara. 
You can have a higher sharpening angle to compensate for the chippyness, or experiment with. Micro bevels to strength the edge. 
But at hrc 66-67, i cant say anything else but that chipping is not uncommon.


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## Consequence (May 1, 2018)

doudou said:


> All knife you mentioned are not good choice for AS steel. the heat treat is out sourced and the HRC is only 62-63. not very impressive for AS. I have shiro kamo's AS gyuto and Sukenari's AS. Sukenari\s AS is way much better with water quench HT. it's sharper and last longer. maybe you should try with Masakage's AS line. or you should just make one shot with TF' denka line. 66-67HRC HT



For a beginner it is not advisable to take teruyasu fujiwara denka, or the hardest sukenari AS heat treats. Kamo is still okay but honestly the masakage koishi imo is ground too thin and the bit behind the edge is not stable enough given the high ht rating for that particular line. It will chip easily if not cared for or compensated for.
I dont think 62-63 is bad. In fact its very useful for pro environment when the last thing a pro chef needs is his knife to chip. To bring it back to life all is needed is a few stropping motions on paper and the AS sings again.
Also 62-63 is plenty hard enough for AS. I feel kintaro's AS is slightly better than kurosaki. But they generally fall in the same range.

If you want to play around with slightly higher hardness than that, shiro kamo's AS is 63-64, as well as sukenari's standard AS line. Not the nickel Damascus one which is now discontinued due to a high failure rate on sukenari's part as the heat treat is pushing the boundaries of AS. and complaints from users about chipping (66-67hrc)


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## Consequence (May 1, 2018)

Nemo said:


> Are you saying that the only determinant of a good HT the hardness that is obtained?
> 
> I'm interested to know the source of your infor,ation that the HT for the listed knives is outsourced.



I have not heard that their HT is outsourced. 
And yes i agree with Nemo. High hrc does not correlate with a good heat treat. There are many other factors in a good heat treat.


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## Consequence (May 1, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Isn't Takeda usually heat treating his AS to the lower 60s, and liked by professionals? Is the Denka HT really general purpose suitable if it is 66+, or always a hair away from microchipping?



Yes, although some have faced problems with his grind and maintaining it.

No. Worse in a pro environment. 

Yes.


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## Jville (May 1, 2018)

I know some people really dislike moritakas, but his AS steel is grrreaat!!


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## doudou (May 1, 2018)

WELL&#65292; HT is not everything, and Sukenari's grind is not the best of all. But i was impressed by Sukenari's HT a lot. very easy to sharp, tuffer thnn Kurosaki's R2 lines and harder than shiro kamo's AS. 

if the HT is only 62-63, I think the Blue 2 is not a bad choice as well. I have akenbono 240 from James, HRC is also around 63 very impressive work performance on board.


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## Tonsku38 (May 1, 2018)

doudou said:


> WELL&#65292; HT is not everything, and Sukenari's grind is not the best of all. But i was impressed by Sukenari's HT a lot. very easy to sharp, tuffer thnn Kurosaki's R2 lines and harder than shiro kamo's AS.
> 
> if the HT is only 62-63, I think the Blue 2 is not a bad choice as well. I have akenbono 240 from James, HRC is also around 63 very impressive work performance on board.




Denka, Sukenari and Masakage are out of my price range which is 200-300 and is has to be from EU. I've been thinking Blue 2 also but only one I have found with stainless cladding is Anryu hammered. I presume it's good option but is it a bit old School.


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## Tonsku38 (May 1, 2018)

Jville said:


> I know some people really dislike moritakas, but his AS steel is grrreaat!!



I would really consider this but it has to be stainless cladding.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 1, 2018)

You probably bring different advantages of AS to the table with different heat treats ....


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## Nemo (May 1, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> You probably bring different advantages of AS to the table with different heat treats ....


This is what I was thinking.

High hardness probably does increase edge retention but probably not by as much as abrasion resistance beyond the hardness threshold where the edge will no longer roll over.

A very hard knife will probably be less tough so microchipping in this situation may well worsen edge retention, depending on geometry and use.

I suspect that the main reason for the famed edge retention of Aogami Super probably has more to do with the abrasion resistance imparted by the alloyed carbides than its ability to be hardened over 65 HRC.


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## Jville (May 2, 2018)

Nemo said:


> This is what I was thinking.
> 
> High hardness probably does increase edge retention but probably not by as much as abrasion resistance beyond the hardness threshold where the edge will no longer roll over.
> 
> ...



I'll be honest the two moritakas I had, neither were chippy. I was straight whack a moling yuca root(with the bark still on it) with the large cleaver and the steel came out pretty ok, except a small chip from where I think I hit a knot. But overall I found the steel less chippy than plenty of other steels of less hardness. Now I'll admit that I'm not factoring in geometry into the equation.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 2, 2018)

In which cases (unless you are cutting dirty vegetables, very crusty meat, silica-rich vegetables like grasses, or something that has crystalline salt and/or sugar on/in it) is abrasion a significant dulling factor in a kitchen?


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## HRC_64 (May 2, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> is abrasion a significant dulling factor in a kitchen?



yes, from the cutting board...
wood dulls fine edges 
i'm sure plastic is worse
tho


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## Nemo (May 2, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> In which cases is abrasion a significant dulling factor in a kitchen?


It's a good question and I think we are getting pretty theoretical now.

My mental model of the ways in which an edge can lose kenness are:
1) Deformation/ rolling (reduced by high hardness).
2) Chipping/ microchipping (reduced by high toughness).
3) Abrasion due to repeated strokes through food and against a cutting board.
4) Micro-corrosion at the edge.

Let me know if I've missed any. 

By elimination, if the knife is hard enough not to roll and tough enough not to chip, how else can it lose keeness except by abrasion (assuming there is not adequate time for micro-corrosion)?

Plant cell walls have a significant cellulose and lignin component. These are tough polymers which would be expected to be abrasive at the micron level. Cotton for example is mostly cellulose. Wood is mostly cellulose and lignin.

Granted, it's a theoretical construct, but I don't think that it's too long of a bow to draw that thousands of strokes through plant cell walls and against cutting boards made of tough polymers would eventually abrade the keeness out of an edge.


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## Tonsku38 (May 3, 2018)

I know I would like that Kanehiro but over 300 is just too much for a tool. I think I will try something different. Maybe that new Kaeru line from JNS.:spankarse:


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## Jville (May 3, 2018)

Tonsku38 said:


> I know I would like that Kanehiro but over 300 is just too much for a tool. I think I will try something different. Maybe that new Kaeru line from JNS.:spankarse:



I'm a huge fan of the kanehiro. It's one of those knives that I keep meaning to get, but just get sidetracked and haven't.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 3, 2018)

I never quite understood how abrasion through interaction with softer materials (as opposed to an actual abrasive) is dominated by that mysterious "abrasion resistance" material property, rather than being just another mode of microchipping/tearing, which would SEEM to be countered by toughness - but toughness and abrasion resistance seem to be often opposite sides of the balance?


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## HRC_64 (May 3, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I never quite understood how abrasion through interaction with softer materials (as opposed to an actual abrasive) is dominated by that mysterious "abrasion resistance" material property, rather than being just another mode of microchipping/tearing, which would SEEM to be countered by toughness - but toughness and abrasion resistance seem to be often opposite sides of the balance?



Think about a razor. it cuts hair, it goes dull. 
Just like a pencil with a tip writing on paper.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 5, 2018)

Isn't paper a far harder material than graphite?


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## HRC_64 (May 5, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Isn't paper a far harder material than graphite?



Hardness is resistance to orthogonal (compressive) force
Wear resistance is resistance to shear force

You're mixing apples and orangoutangs. 

Wear on a pencil is from shear force
and graphite has very little resistance
to shear.

If you made a pencil out of carbon-steel
it would simple score the paper,
not leave a mark of the substrate.

But the point will still go dull at some
stage, even tho steel has much more resistance
to wear than the carbon graphite.

This is why honing on newsprint
is an actual thing that works.

Granted the surface of paper
can vary quite a bit with coatings
and ink and what not.


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## Bensbites (May 5, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I never quite understood how abrasion through interaction with softer materials (as opposed to an actual abrasive) is dominated by that mysterious "abrasion resistance" material property, rather than being just another mode of microchipping/tearing, which would SEEM to be countered by toughness - but toughness and abrasion resistance seem to be often opposite sides of the balance?



I saw a video once that related abrasion resistance of carbides in steel with marbles in playdough. Was it Walter sorrels?


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## adam92 (Jan 23, 2020)

Consequence said:


> For a beginner it is not advisable to take teruyasu fujiwara denka, or the hardest sukenari AS heat treats. Kamo is still okay but honestly the masakage koishi imo is ground too thin and the bit behind the edge is not stable enough given the high ht rating for that particular line. It will chip easily if not cared for or compensated for.
> I dont think 62-63 is bad. In fact its very useful for pro environment when the last thing a pro chef needs is his knife to chip. To bring it back to life all is needed is a few stropping motions on paper and the AS sings again.
> Also 62-63 is plenty hard enough for AS. I feel kintaro's AS is slightly better than kurosaki. But they generally fall in the same range.
> 
> If you want to play around with slightly higher hardness than that, shiro kamo's AS is 63-64, as well as sukenari's standard AS line. Not the nickel Damascus one which is now discontinued due to a high failure rate on sukenari's part as the heat treat is pushing the boundaries of AS. and complaints from users about chipping (66-67hrc)


I'll go for kintaro AS over Kurosaki now based on your review, Thanks so much.


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## bahamaroot (Jan 23, 2020)

I have several Kurosaki knives in different steels, newer and older, no complaints or problems with any of them. All very good knives.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 23, 2020)

Tonsku38 said:


> I know I would like that Kanehiro but over 300 is just too much for a tool. I think I will try something different. Maybe that new Kaeru line from JNS.:spankarse:


FYI - Kanehiros reputation was built under the old man, who’s long retired. It was passed down to his son along with other lines. Not exactly the same knife anymore.


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## TRPV4 (Jan 24, 2020)

Tonsku38 said:


> I know but Kotetsu food realease looks pretty good on this video and I think doesn't wedge much.



it’s so thin that food release is a tradeoff


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