# Not understanding what I'm feeling!



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

Hello all. I'm new here. Have 100's of hours sharpening and I'm still very much a rookie. I have pretty good results and long as I stay off my 12k Shapton stone. I use a KD 1000/6000 and get the knives pretty sharp.

When I go to the 12k it no longer feels right. Kinda skipping a little and the edge almost always dulls. Also I will feel the bur that I thought was gone by now roll over back and forth and the smallest of a "hairlike" metal strands break off and the knife is pretty dull then. It's like I'm breaking the edge off? I've tried light pressure, moderate pressure. Always very light contact going forward and the pressure comes when dragging the blade back.

I use all kinds of knives but I specialize in Old German Wusthofs. I do great as long as I don't use that 12K stone? Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? I'm sure it's a rookie mistake. thanks in advance!


----------



## Michi (Feb 12, 2019)

If you find that a knife gets more dull on a high-grit stone, the problem often is too much pressure. Try with _extremely_ light pressure on your 12K stone. It might help.


----------



## Ruso (Feb 12, 2019)

Any reason you want to finish on 12k stone? I dont see any benefits of doing so on a Wustoff unless you want to create a “mirror” polished bevel.


----------



## galvaude (Feb 12, 2019)

Forget about that 12k stone.

IMO Wusthof and all the other soft steel are best left at 1000 or under for optimal use with stainless, some old carbon can take a 2000 grit edge well. They don't take acute edges well either so keep them thin behing the edge and put a 20 deg edge.

FWIW I use a very broad guideline for kitchen knives (there are many exceptions)

Soft SS (Victorinox, Whusthof, Henckels) --> 400 grit
Higher quality stainless (think VG10, Ginsan, AUS10...) --> 1000 grit
Soft Carbon (Sabatier, vintage wusthof) --> 2000 grit
Hard japanese carbon --> 3000 and up


----------



## Michi (Feb 12, 2019)

Ruso said:


> Any reason you want to finish on 12k stone? I dont see any benefits of doing so on a Wustoff unless you want to create a “mirror” polished bevel.


I don't see the point either.

For a kitchen knife, which is meant to cut food (not test filament or beards), I get the impression that anything over 5000 or 6000 grit isn't any better and might, in fact, be worse. A knife that I've finished on a 5000 stone without stropping cuts tomatoes better than after stropping.

Quite honestly, the answer might be "don't use the 12K stone".


----------



## vicv (Feb 12, 2019)

Michi said:


> I don't see the point either.
> 
> For a kitchen knife, which is meant to cut food (not test filament or beards), I get the impression that anything over 5000 or 6000 grit isn't any better and might, in fact, be worse. A knife that I've finished on a 5000 stone without stropping cuts tomatoes better than after stropping.
> 
> Quite honestly, the answer might be "don't use the 12K stone".



If you find it doesn't cut as well after stropping try to lighten pressure or lower spine a tad. Stropping is so light it more cleans the edge than refining the scratch pattern even though some abrasive is used unless you're doing hundreds of strokes and that will dull your edge anyway. 
To the OP I agree with the others. Your 12k stone is only suitable for razors or some specialized woodworking tools. It's too fine for kitchen knives. Even if your sharpening is perfect and the edge is extremely sharp it will be a lousy cutter in the kitchen. The problem you're having is just that your fine and very hard stone is showing you burr that you did not properly remove with the previous stones


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

Thank you all for the replies. I am consuming all of this amazing information it is greatly appreciated.


Ruso said:


> Any reason you want to finish on 12k stone? I dont see any benefits of doing so on a Wustoff unless you want to create a “mirror” polished bevel.



I was simply trying to super-polish the edge making it more efficient (i thought) but I was wrong.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

Michi said:


> I don't see the point either.
> 
> For a kitchen knife, which is meant to cut food (not test filament or beards), I get the impression that anything over 5000 or 6000 grit isn't any better and might, in fact, be worse. A knife that I've finished on a 5000 stone without stropping cuts tomatoes better than after stropping.
> 
> Quite honestly, the answer might be "don't use the 12K stone".


When I strope a whustof on leather many times i too notice it doesn't cut as well. Now I know I'm not crazy. thank you


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

vicv said:


> If you find it doesn't cut as well after stropping try to lighten pressure or lower spine a tad. Stropping is so light it more cleans the edge than refining the scratch pattern even though some abrasive is used unless you're doing hundreds of strokes and that will dull your edge anyway.
> To the OP I agree with the others. Your 12k stone is only suitable for razors or some specialized woodworking tools. It's too fine for kitchen knives. Even if your sharpening is perfect and the edge is extremely sharp it will be a lousy cutter in the kitchen. The problem you're having is just that your fine and very hard stone is showing you burr that you did not properly remove with the previous stones


 Great information thank you so much. Mr. Vic I do have a question about what you have said. I understand you said "I was not properly removing the bur with the previous stones. So this means probably many things I could be doing wrong but do you think I just meed more passses on the 6K stone to remove the bur? Or just an improper angle allowing the bur to exist? Thanks again for all your help!


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

Thank you all. I can see I've made many errors. I do use 100's and 100's of strokes. So stop that I am understanding? Also I will quit the 12K stone altogether as there is no need. I buy old knives that are beat up and fix them up grinding them a little and tuning them up. I have touched a Wusthof 4582 to a grinding wheel before and had them break like glass so I use much caution and ease when cutting them down. I use only very old wooden handle wusthof's (with the gold rivets in the handle) that I'm guessing are over 50 years old but they too are considered soft correct? I thought they were indeed very hard, I was so wrong! Lol. So now I'll stick to finishing with the 6K. Thank you all so much!


----------



## Xenif (Feb 12, 2019)

Watch these to get an understanding of burr creation, removal.





Heck watch all of Jons videos


----------



## vicv (Feb 12, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> Great information thank you so much. Mr. Vic I do have a question about what you have said. I understand you said "I was not properly removing the bur with the previous stones. So this means probably many things I could be doing wrong but do you think I just meed more passses on the 6K stone to remove the bur? Or just an improper angle allowing the bur to exist? Thanks again for all your help!



You've probably got the burr so weak now that it'll just keep flipping back and forth. I'd go to your lowest grit stone and make several passes switching sides each time. Then raise the spine twice as high as you sharpened at and VERY lightly make a few edge leading strokes. That should remove the burr. Then a few more very light passes at original angle. For stropping yes hundreds of passes is two much. Ten max at very light pressure heel to tip at the same angle you sharpened at or slightly more angle edge trailing. If you did everything right this should be a nice sharp burr free edge. Until you can do this consistently do not move to a finer stone. I can pop arm hairs off above the skin without touching at this stage. 300-400 grit stone


----------



## panda (Feb 12, 2019)

that's because wusthof should only be sharpened to 1000 grit at the most. so 12k would be 12x finer grit than necessary.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

Xenif said:


> Watch these to get an understanding of burr creation, removal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have watched many many youtube videos but never came across this gentleman. I will watch in great detail. Thank you!


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

vicv said:


> You've probably got the burr so weak now that it'll just keep flipping back and forth. I'd go to your lowest grit stone and make several passes switching sides each time. Then raise the spine twice as high as you sharpened at and VERY lightly make a few edge leading strokes. That should remove the burr. Then a few more very light passes at original angle. For stropping yes hundreds of passes is two much. Ten max at very light pressure heel to tip at the same angle you sharpened at or slightly more angle edge trailing. If you did everything right this should be a nice sharp burr free edge. Until you can do this consistently do not move to a finer stone. I can pop arm hairs off above the skin without touching at this stage. 300-400 grit stone


I will try and try what you have suggested. I am clearly not getting my knives sharp enough with my first stone. And all the video's I've watched have never broken it down like you have! Thanks again Mr.Vic you have shined the brightest of lights for me. I appreciate you 
taking the time. It means a lot.


----------



## vicv (Feb 12, 2019)

No problem friend good luck. It just takes practice and determination. I've given up on sharpening free hand more than once only to try again. It's taken years of practice and I still have so much to learn. The way I look at it is what did people do before having 10k+ stones here? We had India and Arkansas stones. We were taught to sharpen with the coarse side then move onto the fine side. The fine side was 400 grit JIS! Why now the recommendation is to start at 1000 grit is a mystery to me. It's your time but to me it's a waste of it. Moving onto Arkansas stones was for advanced sharpeners and even a hard Arkansas is roughly 1k.


----------



## lemeneid (Feb 12, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> I have watched many many youtube videos but never came across this gentleman. I will watch in great detail. Thank you!


If you watched burrfection previously, unlearn everything he’s taught you.


----------



## vicv (Feb 12, 2019)

As much as he's given derision on here the man gets his knives sharp. Can't argue with that. And he's just having fun. Plus he doesn't teach technique or anything just sharpens stuff


----------



## Cyrilix (Feb 12, 2019)

vicv said:


> No problem friend good luck. It just takes practice and determination. I've given up on sharpening free hand more than once only to try again. It's taken years of practice and I still have so much to learn. The way I look at it is what did people do before having 10k+ stones here? We had India and Arkansas stones. We were taught to sharpen with the coarse side then move onto the fine side. The fine side was 400 grit JIS! Why now the recommendation is to start at 1000 grit is a mystery to me. It's your time but to me it's a waste of it. Moving onto Arkansas stones was for advanced sharpeners and even a hard Arkansas is roughly 1k.



At the end of the day, performance matters and people will do what generates that performance. If that means using a 1k or a 3k or a 5k, then that's perfectly okay.


----------



## panda (Feb 12, 2019)

vicv said:


> No problem friend good luck. It just takes practice and determination. I've given up on sharpening free hand more than once only to try again. It's taken years of practice and I still have so much to learn. The way I look at it is what did people do before having 10k+ stones here? We had India and Arkansas stones. We were taught to sharpen with the coarse side then move onto the fine side. The fine side was 400 grit JIS! Why now the recommendation is to start at 1000 grit is a mystery to me. It's your time but to me it's a waste of it. Moving onto Arkansas stones was for advanced sharpeners and even a hard Arkansas is roughly 1k.



you misunderstand, i meant dont go any higher than 1000. i think 400 is the right grit for the job.


----------



## Michi (Feb 12, 2019)

vicv said:


> If you find it doesn't cut as well after stropping try to lighten pressure or lower spine a tad. Stropping is so light it more cleans the edge than refining the scratch pattern even though some abrasive is used unless you're doing hundreds of strokes and that will dull your edge anyway.


To be clear, after stropping, my knife is objectively sharper. It cuts paper better than before the stropping, with less effort, a cleaner edge, and less noise. But it's worse at cutting a tomato than before the stropping.


----------



## vicv (Feb 12, 2019)

Probably rounded the edge a bit. Cuts smoother but less bite


----------



## panda (Feb 12, 2019)

Michi said:


> To be clear, after stropping, my knife is objectively sharper. It cuts paper better than before the stropping, with less effort, a cleaner edge, and less noise. But it's worse at cutting a tomato than before the stropping.


This is exactly why I think paper cutting is such a useless test of sharpness for kitchen knives. So is arm hair shaving, plus it's gross.


----------



## Bert2368 (Feb 12, 2019)

Look at the microphotographs of edges before and after stropping, steeling & honing on the several articles here:

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/what-does-stropping-do/

And read the questions and comments after each of the articles too- He is often using as few as 5 or 10 strokes on a strop or just 2 strokes on a steel to achieve those results.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

Michi said:


> To be clear, after stropping, my knife is objectively sharper. It cuts paper better than before the stropping, with less effort, a cleaner edge, and less noise. But it's worse at cutting a tomato than before the stropping.


Ok I understand now. thank you


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 12, 2019)

Bert2368 said:


> Look at the microphotographs of edges before and after stropping, steeling & honing on the several articles here:
> 
> https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com
> 
> ...


WOW lotsa good stuff there!


----------



## vicv (Feb 12, 2019)

It's a great resource. His article on sharpening a razor the easy way was a revelation for me. It's how I do it now and it works. 6k king, autosol on denim, then diamond on leather. So smooth no need for high grit expensive stones! For shaving you want a rounded edge. I used to stop on a sigma 13k. Was so sharp was removing skin along with hair. Round the edge a bit and its smooth. With a knife you want a crisp edge though


----------



## mack (Feb 13, 2019)

I would never strop my kitchen knives. Never. I usually stop at 5k when sharpening free hand, anything higher than that is waste of time imho. When I'm sharpening with system (in my case: Bogdan), it absolutely makes sense to go up to 12K, if the steel allows it. You get a fine closed edge, which has the big advantage, that it lasts way longer. Way longer.

I know, that those sharpening systems are discussed controversial, but for me it's the perfect way to get a scary sharp, long lasting edge. 


Mack.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 13, 2019)

mack said:


> I would never strop my kitchen knives. Never. I usually stop at 5k when sharpening free hand, anything higher than that is waste of time imho. When I'm sharpening with system (in my case: Bogdan), it absolutely makes sense to go up to 12K, if the steel allows it. You get a fine closed edge, which has the big advantage, that it lasts way longer. Way longer.
> 
> I know, that those sharpening systems are discussed controversial, but for me it's the perfect way to get a scary sharp, long lasting edge.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mack. I'll be stopping much sooner. I'll also check your system out! ;-)


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 13, 2019)

Just wanted to let everyone know in the last couple days I've watched many videos as suggested. And read a wealth of articles provided and although I'm known for having much sharper knives than the "average Joe" I have a much better understanding on what's going on than I have learned the many decades prior. I must say I had taken in much information and applying it. As it turns out, _I have kind of been sabotaging myself_. I worked on 5 knives today 2 old ones and 3 stamped junkers. I sharpened everything in 20% of my previous time and the edges are more true and sharp than ever before. 
*I have very much to learn but you guys have helped me a lot and I thank all of you for it!*​


----------



## Cyrilix (Feb 13, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> Just wanted to let everyone know in the last couple days I've watched many videos as suggested. And read a wealth of articles provided and although I'm known for having much sharper knives than the "average Joe" I have a much better understanding on what's going on than I have learned the many decades prior. I must say I had taken in much information and applying it. As it turns out, _I have kind of been sabotaging myself_. I worked on 5 knives today 2 old ones and 3 stamped junkers. I sharpened everything in 20% of my previous time and the edges are more true and sharp than ever before.
> *I have very much to learn but you guys have helped me a lot and I thank all of you for it!*​


Awesome. How were you sabotaging yourself?


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 13, 2019)

I had followed many myths, lies and untruths! Lol Here are just a few through the years. 1) all you need is a "steel" to sharpen a knife.... ever. 2) Always put pressure down on the knife when it goes forward 3) never drag a knife backwards on a stone 4) it takes 1000 strokes to sharpen a knife correctly 5) 11 degrees is the best angle to sharpen 6)25 degrees is the best angle But as of late I have #1) dulled my kitchen knives using a 12K stone and #2) Used way too many strokes allowing for inconsistencies in angles then basically polishing the "ok edge" into a dull edge. So these last two is what I have focused on since my posting here. I used a 400 to correct my angles and then a 1000 to polish and finish the bur removal. They are very sharp (I have a 6K that I would like to use but here they say its overkill so I shall not) Sorry there is three things. Probably the most important was the bur recognition(along with the very light pressure as a whole) and the gradual removal and the final super light stropping on the stone at the end. I had never done that. The bur I just kind of left to chance assuming with so many strokes it would take care of its self. I have much to learn but now I'm on a much better path to success. thank you.


----------



## Cyrilix (Feb 13, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> I had followed many myths, lies and untruths! Lol Here are just a few through the years. 1) all you need is a "steel" to sharpen a knife.... ever. 2) Always put pressure down on the knife when it goes forward 3) never drag a knife backwards on a stone 4) it takes 1000 strokes to sharpen a knife correctly 5) 11 degrees is the best angle to sharpen 6)25 degrees is the best angle But as of late I have #1) dulled my kitchen knives using a 12K stone and #2) Used way too many strokes allowing for inconsistencies in angles then basically polishing the "ok edge" into a dull edge. So these last two is what I have focused on since my posting here. I used a 400 to correct my angles and then a 1000 to polish and finish the bur removal. They are very sharp (I have a 6K that I would like to use but here they say its overkill so I shall not) Sorry there is three things. Probably the most important was the bur recognition(along with the very light pressure as a whole) and the gradual removal and the final super light stropping on the stone at the end. I had never done that. The bur I just kind of left to chance assuming with so many strokes it would take care of its self. I have much to learn but now I'm on a much better path to success. thank you.



Okay, let's take a step back and point out some of the things that aren't problems.

Sharpening on a 12k is not a problem, as long as you're sharpening well on a 12k. It should make your edge less toothy and should also refine it so that less downward force is required to initiate a cut, in theory. Obviously, if you aren't holding your angle correctly, other things can happen.

Burr removal on a higher grit stone is also not a problem. Higher grit stones cut more slowly so you won't make progress as quickly but you also won't make mistakes as quickly. Neither is actually a problem. This is personal preference.

Using 1000 strokes is not a problem, however if I were to use 1000 strokes on most stones, I would create a massive burr and waste a lot of metal. I guess it sort of is a problem, but not in the final result of making your knife sharp.

Leaving burr to chance is a problem and probably the biggest one. You have to verify that it's no longer there.

As to whether or not you should use your 6k and 12k stone, you should learn how to use them effectively, then compare the results of your cuts. It may be better, may be worse, depending on what you're trying to cut and your cutting motion.


----------



## vicv (Feb 13, 2019)

Congrats on your improvement. It's a great feeling. Keep doing what you're doing and you'll keep seeing improvements. That 400 grit stone is why you didn't need to make 1000 strokes. It's good to get the edge set as quickly as you can. Then you just refine it


----------



## gman (Feb 13, 2019)

getting good with finer grit stones takes practice. a couple years ago i was getting max cutting performance at 3k and if i went any higher my knives would perform worse, especially on soft veg with tough skins (tomatoes, peppers). but once i learned to use (much much much much) less pressure i saw improvement. you really only want to remove metal with the first stone in your progression. after that you are simply polishing.


----------



## Ruso (Feb 13, 2019)

@Jeffrey McCue 
Glad to hear you are improving.
Keep doing what works for you. Once you "master" one set of technique you can explore another options and see how they work for you.
At the beginning keep it simple, keep it consistent and enjoy your sharp edges.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 13, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Okay, let's take a step back and point out some of the things that aren't problems.
> 
> Sharpening on a 12k is not a problem, as long as you're sharpening well on a 12k. It should make your edge less toothy and should also refine it so that less downward force is required to initiate a cut, in theory. Obviously, if you aren't holding your angle correctly, other things can happen.
> 
> ...


Cyrilix thank you for the words of wisdom. as you have stated a 6k or 12k may not be a problem but I feel I am too loose with my skills makes it a problem as my cutting ability with the knife reduces drastically after the 12K stone. I will follow your advice and keep an open mind to the finer stones but I have indeed made great progress with a lighter touch, bur recognition and the omission of the finer stones. Toothy I know is not good. But I go from toothy to butter knife dull in short order! Lol Thank you for your help!


----------



## vicv (Feb 14, 2019)

On the contrary toothy is very good. You want the edge to bit into the food you're cutting not slide on the surface. For a paring knife with a lot of in hand push cutting a high polish can be advantageous. Otherwise I believe 6k is max and a bit too much for general cutting tasks. For things like my filet and skinning knives I finish at around 320-400 grit. It just cuts better and stays sharp longer in my experience


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 14, 2019)

vicv said:


> On the contrary toothy is very good. You want the edge to bit into the food you're cutting not slide on the surface. For a paring knife with a lot of in hand push cutting a high polish can be advantageous. Otherwise I believe 6k is max and a bit too much for general cutting tasks. For things like my filet and skinning knives I finish at around 320-400 grit. It just cuts better and stays sharp longer in my experience


Really that's amazing? "Sharp but toothy" So you are kind of making a serrated sharp knife then by using only the coarse stone. I have quite a few fillet knives that are pretty good quality from Finland in the 1960's-1980's era. I should be putting 400 grit edges on them you think? Filleting fish over the years has been my cause for appreciating and striving for a sharp tool. I'm known as "The fish cleaning guy."


----------



## vicv (Feb 14, 2019)

In my opinion yes. This is a good read

http://seamountknifeworks.com/js/web/viewer.html?file=articles/pdf/shapening.pdf


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 14, 2019)

vicv said:


> In my opinion yes. This is a good read
> 
> http://seamountknifeworks.com/js/web/viewer.html?file=articles/pdf/shapening.pdf


Yes it was good Vic. What diameter of rope do you think he might use for checking sharpness? And just try to slice it in two while its on a board with straight down pressure?


----------



## vicv (Feb 14, 2019)

http://seamountknifeworks.com/articles.html
Read all the articles .There's a lot of good metallurgical info on there


----------



## inferno (Feb 14, 2019)

I'm gonna go against the grain here and suggest you can take any blade up to any grit you want.

Another question is how long it will hold that grit edge though 

I have the 12k too. and I basically do alternating side "swiping" movements on it only.

I think its very important to do these swiping movements and also do alternating sides as the last ones on each stone. I only do about 10 on each side with the 12k. And thats coming off a 4-8k. I have no problems with burrs. And I dont "strop" on it.

Its a bit overkill for kitchen knives in general though. But fun. Since it gets so sharp you almost poop yourself.

look up sharpening with bob kramer for technique on those alternating swiping strokes.


----------



## gman (Feb 15, 2019)

inferno said:


> I'm gonna go against the grain here and suggest you can take any blade up to any grit you want.
> 
> Another question is how long it will hold that grit edge though
> 
> ...



i agree. the hardness of the steel determines the angle you can sharpen at, not the grit. a soft steel sharpened at too acute an angle will roll the edge just as easily no matter what the final grit was.

i really think the issue that many people run into is that they actually roll their edge by pressing too hard with higher grit stones. the same pressure with a lower grit stone removes metal and creates a new edge, instead of rolling it, and that is the explanation for lower grits feeling sharper than higher grits. with good technique this doesn't happen, and you can go as fine as you like, but the key is that the more acute the angle, the lighter touch you need, and if you keep rolling the edge no matter how light your pressure, then you need to make the angle less acute.


----------



## AT5760 (Feb 15, 2019)

This is a great thread. A lot of hidden sharpening tips here. While there are some great videos out there, they aren't able to show things like how much pressure is applied at each grit level. It's helpful to visualize what is happening to the edge with each pass, on each grit, with varying pressure. Because you can't see it, and a noob like me can't necessarily feel it.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 15, 2019)

inferno said:


> I'm gonna go against the grain here and suggest you can take any blade up to any grit you want.
> 
> Another question is how long it will hold that grit edge though
> 
> ...


Thanks inferno for your input, I'll look up Bob Kramer this afternoon.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 15, 2019)

gman said:


> i agree. the hardness of the steel determines the angle you can sharpen at, not the grit. a soft steel sharpened at too acute an angle will roll the edge just as easily no matter what the final grit was.
> 
> i really think the issue that many people run into is that they actually roll their edge by pressing too hard with higher grit stones. the same pressure with a lower grit stone removes metal and creates a new edge, instead of rolling it, and that is the explanation for lower grits feeling sharper than higher grits. with good technique this doesn't happen, and you can go as fine as you like, but the key is that the more acute the angle, the lighter touch you need, and if you keep rolling the edge no matter how light your pressure, then you need to make the angle less acute.


You have described my edge rolling technique. I am trying to be very disciplined on the light touch. The caveman in me takes over sometimes though! Great info thanks!


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 15, 2019)

AT5760 said:


> This is a great thread. A lot of hidden sharpening tips here. While there are some great videos out there, they aren't able to show things like how much pressure is applied at each grit level. It's helpful to visualize what is happening to the edge with each pass, on each grit, with varying pressure. Because you can't see it, and a noob like me can't necessarily feel it.


AT57 I agree.........I have learned more here on this thread than I have watching days of knife video's? I feel fortunate.


----------



## inferno (Feb 15, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> Thanks inferno for your input, I'll look up Bob Kramer this afternoon.



2,5 minutes in he starts showing how to sharpen also listen to what he says. This is the video I recommend to friends and family.


----------



## inferno (Feb 15, 2019)

AT5760 said:


> This is a great thread. A lot of hidden sharpening tips here. While there are some great videos out there, they aren't able to show things like how much pressure is applied at each grit level. It's helpful to visualize what is happening to the edge with each pass, on each grit, with varying pressure. Because you can't see it, and a noob like me can't necessarily feel it.



I basically adjust pressure like this:
Removing lots of metal: very high pressure, basically as high as I can go and still work fast.

2k and up: lighter pressure. and when doing the finishing alternating swipes on each stone i basically gradually end up with only the weight of the knife.

finishing grits: very light and end on knife weight only. I only do alternating swipes on these stones.


----------



## galvaude (Feb 15, 2019)

Although I think stones over 3000 are a colossal waste of time and money for knives it should be pointed that Using a high grit stone for knives is not inherently bad. It depends on a lot of thing you do prior to that stone and how much time you spend polishing.

Some people go from 1k to high grit and spend very little time on it. Keeps te edge aggressive and helps deburr and clean up everything.

the problem most people have with high grit stones is they don’t keep the same angle and they wobble more due to the muted feel higher grit stones have.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 15, 2019)

inferno said:


> 2,5 minutes in he starts showing how to sharpen also listen to what he says. This is the video I recommend to friends and family.




Inferno that guy just confused the heck out of me. He gave the various ways you can sharpen. But he goes against about everything i thought I learned here! He pressures the blade as it goes forward is what I think I understood and watched him do. How is he even getting a bur that would be a stropping action. Also he used 4 to 6 lbs of downward pressure which is what i was just supposed to get away from? He does everything opposite of what I thought we should do. I do realize that whatever works for each person is fine, but he is really promoting everything I've been trying to unlearn. Did I misunderstand him?


----------



## inferno (Feb 15, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> Inferno that guy just confused the heck out of me. He gave the various ways you can sharpen. But he goes against about everything i thought I learned here! He pressures the blade as it goes forward is what I think I understood and watched him do. How is he even getting a bur that would be a stropping action. Also he used 4 to 6 lbs of downward pressure which is what i was just supposed to get away from? He does everything opposite of what I thought we should do. I do realize that whatever works for each person is fine, but he is really promoting everything I've been trying to unlearn. Did I misunderstand him?https://media.giphy.com/media/Ho2mVZ5dvsW7S/giphy.gif



I dont see what he shows could be confusing??

He pressures the blade extremely much on the low grit. you can see it flexing like crazy. go get stuff done. Thats how its done.

you get a burr doing both ways trust me. no need to do backwards stropping actions to get a burr!

allinall i think this is the best video and also double bevel basics.
i use the double bevel basics for removing steel fast and pretty much end with swipes on each stone.

if you do what any of these guys do then you will get a sharp blade. period.

I do jon broida first then kramer, then alternate sides kramer. then alternate sides low pressure kramer to finish.



You dont need to learn anything here from anyone. you need to teach yourself how YOU can get your knives sharp no matter what method. IE what works for YOU. These 2 guys shows what works for them and most other people do any of these techniques more or less. And many ended up there themselves without these teachers teaching them since these are good working intuitive methods that comes to mind naturally if you have a stone in front of you and you are trying to sharpen a blade on it. 

*simply do what works for you!*


----------



## lemeneid (Feb 15, 2019)

gman said:


> i agree. the hardness of the steel determines the angle you can sharpen at, not the grit. a soft steel sharpened at too acute an angle will roll the edge just as easily no matter what the final grit was.
> 
> i really think the issue that many people run into is that they actually roll their edge by pressing too hard with higher grit stones. the same pressure with a lower grit stone removes metal and creates a new edge, instead of rolling it, and that is the explanation for lower grits feeling sharper than higher grits. with good technique this doesn't happen, and you can go as fine as you like, but the key is that the more acute the angle, the lighter touch you need, and if you keep rolling the edge no matter how light your pressure, then you need to make the angle less acute.


There is not much rolling involved when it comes to Japanese knives though. The edges are so hard they have a tendency to chip rather than roll over. Rolling usually occurs on softer knives like those wusthofs or henckels. Harder it is, the easier it is to chip which is why you should lower pressure a little a little after a few passes at higher pressure so you can get the knife a little sharper. Typically what I do is a full progression on high pressure with my finishing stone, then repeat the process with lower pressure. You’ll find you get quite the amazing edge that punches above its weight in terms of grit so you don’t really need super high grit stones, just really good technique.


----------



## inferno (Feb 15, 2019)

exactly!

this a tradecraft. something you learn.

I can get a killer edge of a 220 stone. you just reduce pressure towards the end. it wont be as good as a 4k stone but better than any factory german edge ever produced so that still quite good imo. 

its all about what you do with it! and its all up to you. thats what i have learned at least. 

PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. no kidding.


----------



## gman (Feb 15, 2019)

i don't disagree with any of that. i can get a knife shaving sharp on a 220 too. maybe "roll" is a confusing term. should i have said "round"?

i think we are all in agreement that good technique is essential to getting a good edge, and that grit has nothing to do with sharpness. angle does. grit has to do with material removal. so what i'm really saying is that coarse grit stones hide bad technique by constantly exposing fresh steel and creating a new edge, whereas fine stones reveal bad technique by removing just enough steel to round off an edge, without setting a completely new one.

and just to avoid confusing/insulting anyone, when i say "bad technique", i mean problems with wobble and pressure, which are both extremely difficult to control free handed. nobody is perfect, and one of the most fun aspects of sharpening is challenging ourselves to get incrementally better each time.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 15, 2019)

gman said:


> i don't disagree with any of that. i can get a knife shaving sharp on a 220 too. maybe "roll" is a confusing term. should i have said "round"?
> 
> i think we are all in agreement that good technique is essential to getting a good edge, and that grit has nothing to do with sharpness. angle does. grit has to do with material removal. so what i'm really saying is that coarse grit stones hide bad technique by constantly exposing fresh steel and creating a new edge, whereas fine stones reveal bad technique by removing just enough steel to round off an edge, without setting a completely new one.
> 
> and just to avoid confusing/insulting anyone, when i say "bad technique", i mean problems with wobble and pressure, which are both extremely difficult to control free handed. nobody is perfect, and one of the most fun aspects of sharpening is challenging ourselves to get incrementally better each time.


Gman that makes a lot of sense to me.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 15, 2019)

inferno said:


> I dont see what he shows could be confusing??
> 
> He pressures the blade extremely much on the low grit. you can see it flexing like crazy. go get stuff done. Thats how its done.
> 
> ...



Iferno I can see i am trying your patience and i apologize for that. I started this thread because I have 100's if not 1000's of hours sharpening. I've put 30 hours in a week a couple weeks ago. I was at wits end as my 12K stone was dulling my knives. I was searching for solutions. Something was going wrong and after listening to everyone I'm convinced my "improper technique" with hundreds of passes with the same knife on the 12K stone I was just knocking the edges off. Everyone here kinda had the same theme going I thought. Then Bob Kramer shows up and puts a ton of pressure and reverses what I thought was the correct stroke as he sharpens going forward not on the drag stroke. I totally understand everyone does things different and I have to "find what works for me." Thats what got me here in the beginning because what I was doing wasn't working. Bob Knamers method I am making a knife much sharper in just a few strokes so I'm going to spend maybe 10 hours this weekend trying his method and see if I can be consistent with that. I see now in the beginning early stones you need to put that massive 7lbs of pressure like he does and as you go up or get a sharper edge lessen the pressure. I will work on this and appreciate all your input. Thank you.


----------



## lemeneid (Feb 15, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> Iferno I can see i am trying your patience and i apologize for that. I started this thread because I have 100's if not 1000's of hours sharpening. I've put 30 hours in a week a couple weeks ago. I was at wits end as my 12K stone was dulling my knives. I was searching for solutions. Something was going wrong and after listening to everyone I'm convinced my "improper technique" with hundreds of passes with the same knife on the 12K stone I was just knocking the edges off. Everyone here kinda had the same theme going I thought. Then Bob Kramer shows up and puts a ton of pressure and reverses what I thought was the correct stroke as he sharpens going forward not on the drag stroke. I totally understand everyone does things different and I have to "find what works for me." Thats what got me here in the beginning because what I was doing wasn't working. Bob Knamers method I am making a knife much sharper in just a few strokes so I'm going to spend maybe 10 hours this weekend trying his method and see if I can be consistent with that. I see now in the beginning early stones you need to put that massive 7lbs of pressure like he does and as you go up or get a sharper edge lessen the pressure. I will work on this and appreciate all your input. Thank you.


You’re over thinking things and making things too technical, common mistake for a lot of people. Start from the beginning with basics. Consistent pressure, consistent strokes, consistent angles, and make sure the stone is flat. Work until you get the burr then flip it over and do that then slowly reduce the number of strokes and finish off with stropping with edge trailing strokes. 

Most of the videos you see on YouTube by guys like Jon or Murray Carter are good, but I feel some things they do aren’t suitable or not explained well for beginners and that’s where mistakes happen. That’s why I emphasize consistency with all parts of the sharpening process, then when you’re more confident in reproducing the results, try to change a step and see if you notice a difference. That’s how you learn from this.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 16, 2019)

galvaude said:


> Although I think stones over 3000 are a colossal waste of time and money for knives it should be pointed that Using a high grit stone for knives is not inherently bad. It depends on a lot of thing you do prior to that stone and how much time you spend polishing.
> 
> Some people go from 1k to high grit and spend very little time on it. Keeps te edge aggressive and helps deburr and clean up everything.
> 
> the problem most people have with high grit stones is they don’t keep the same angle and they wobble more due to the muted feel higher grit stones have.




Galvaude that is exactly what I was doing. I am reworking my techniques and staying away from all my stones over 5k.
Thank you!


----------



## HugSeal (Feb 16, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> I will try and try what you have suggested. I am clearly not getting my knives sharp enough with my first stone.



One thing that made my edges a lot sharper was the realization that if I don't get a really sharp edge on the early ca. 1k stone then going to a higher grit won't really do much other than polish the sides of the edge.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 16, 2019)

HugSeal said:


> One thing that made my edges a lot sharper was the realization that if I don't get a really sharp edge on the early ca. 1k stone then going to a higher grit won't really do much other than polish the sides of the edge.



Yes Seal thanks! I kinda wish I'd have known that a year ago. I spent 100's of hours expecting my knife to get sharper with each stone. So Always I was moving on before the knife was where it should have been! Lol


----------



## vicv (Feb 16, 2019)

Everyone does it! I feel the usual recommendation of the standard 1k and 6k stones for beginners doesn't help. But even Murray Carter recommends this so what do I know


----------



## Xenif (Feb 16, 2019)

If there is one thing that really helped me a lot was to take videos (top down I found to be best) of your own sharpening. Watch it and re watch it, you will start to notice little things you might not have known before such as where you are applying pressure, wobbling, etc. Compare that to sharpeners you know are reliable, pick up what works for you, don't force things that doesnt work for you.
When I rewatched my videos from when I first got started I literally laughed out loud, pointed out many many problems. Watch recent ones to compare and see if you have corrected those problems.
It's not about the hundreds of hours that you are getting it wrong, its about the moment that you get it right, know you got it right, know what you did to get there , and then be able to replicate it, consistently.

Remember always to have fun


----------



## Ruso (Feb 16, 2019)

1/6k make sense when ppl ate talking about high end cutlery or simple carbons. Thin behind the edge so it does not take much affort to create burr on 1K.
But in reality most ppl learn on all sorts of $10 knives. 1K should be the finishing stone at best. Creating even and uniform burr on never sharpened 10$ knife is a PITA.
Norton IB8 for example is a decent stone to learn on this type of knives. When you overgrow it not a bit deal.

Also, take a break. A week or two weeks long break. Let the muscle memory and the knowledge settle.


----------



## Knife2meatu (Feb 16, 2019)

Another thing the King 1000/6000 has going against it: beginners pick it up because it is relatively inexpensive and then quite unsurprisingly use it to sharpen their inexpensive, extremely dull stainless steel knives.

When the 1k side fails to produce a burr in a timely manner, they then proceed to complain it wears too fast and doesn't form a burr quickly enough. But it actually cuts surprisingly fast with only light pressure applied, compared to many other oft-recommend stones. And when used with appropriately light pressure, it ceases to excessively shed grit, even though it does of course still form enough mud to slow down burr formation; hence getting the reputation of being slow cutting at the same time.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 17, 2019)

Knife2meatu said:


> Another thing the King 1000/6000 has going against it: beginners pick it up because it is relatively inexpensive and then quite unsurprisingly use it to sharpen their inexpensive, extremely dull stainless steel knives.
> 
> When the 1k side fails to produce a burr in a timely manner, they then proceed to complain it wears too fast and doesn't form a burr quickly enough. But it actually cuts surprisingly fast with only light pressure applied, compared to many other oft-recommend stones. And when used with appropriately light pressure, it ceases to excessively shed grit, even though it does of course still form enough mud to slow down burr formation; hence getting the reputation of being slow cutting at the same time.


MeatU, I too have that stone in the "KDS" variety. LOl It is the stone that I have that treats me best by far. I have more expensive stones but that one produces the best restults for my amatuer self!


----------



## JBroida (Feb 17, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> You’re over thinking things and making things too technical, common mistake for a lot of people. Start from the beginning with basics. Consistent pressure, consistent strokes, consistent angles, and make sure the stone is flat. Work until you get the burr then flip it over and do that then slowly reduce the number of strokes and finish off with stropping with edge trailing strokes.
> 
> Most of the videos you see on YouTube by guys like Jon or Murray Carter are good, but I feel some things they do aren’t suitable or not explained well for beginners and that’s where mistakes happen. That’s why I emphasize consistency with all parts of the sharpening process, then when you’re more confident in reproducing the results, try to change a step and see if you notice a difference. That’s how you learn from this.



Just curious what the things you think I could have done better are? I have a bunch of things in mind that I’d like to re-do, but I rarely have the time nowadays.


----------



## lemeneid (Feb 17, 2019)

JBroida said:


> Just curious what the things you think I could have done better are? I have a bunch of things in mind that I’d like to re-do, but I rarely have the time nowadays.


It’s those little things I didn’t understand when I was a beginner watching your videos. You used to swipe across the stone before flipping over the knife and continuing, but I didn’t really understand that till I became much better. The sharpie was a really useful trick to use though. But sometimes a lot of the things we try to teach gives of that “trust me” vibe even though they may be well explained. That could be an area where beginners falter or not pay attention to much.

I think if you want to re-do stuff, it would be great to package them as an entire series. So the teaching methodology and techniques remain consistent. It’s like textbooks for example, you would want everything condensed into one book instead of buying the same textbook over the years just because the content in them has changed.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 17, 2019)

It took me quite awhile to get sharpening technique down. I almost feel that no matter what there’s going to be some level of trial and error. Jon’s precise in his speech, moves through process at a quick pace. The only improvement I could really see would be slowing things down and making a longer slower paced video so noobs can keep up. But it’s not necessary.
Here’s an idea, I suppose Jon could post a video of one of his sharpening classes. Maybe that would help a beginner. Watching another beginner have his technique corrected visually maybe of help?
Just throwing that out there.


----------



## psfred (Feb 18, 2019)

One of the biggest problems with beginning to sharpen is that typically the person learning is doing so on a very dull, abused knife, often soft stainless, or on a brand new, factory edged knife. Neither is actually ready to sharpen unless someone who knows what they are doing sharpened it recently.

Beaten up stainless (or some of the cheap Asian ones) will take a long, long time on a 1k stone to get a good bevel established as they are badly rounded and often poorly sharpened to start with. I've gotten a few with about a 90 degree included angle bevel in fairly hard stainless, those eventually made a trip to the stand grinder to get enough steel off to put an edge on them. Basically had to regrind the blade, will someday put them on my new belt sander for that.

It takes a while to learn to hold the knife at a constant angle, especially when changing stones as you have to put it down and pick it back up. Practice that first, don't be afraid to use a Sharpie on the edge. You cannot polish a bevel until you have established the apex properly and expect the knife to cut well!

King stones are very soft (except the Deluxe 300), and you MUST use minimal pressure or they dish so fast you can't get a flat bevel. Very difficult to get decent flatness between stones for woodworking, which is why I quit using them. Might be less of an issue now that I more or less know what I'm doing, but starting out I couldn't get any two stones to cut the same way, always ended up with a curved edge on the coarse stones and therefore only polished the center on finer ones. Will revisit that someday, but not any time soon.

As far as Wustof's go, one of the issues you may have with using finer stones on the stainless steel ones is that fine stones tend to pull the rather coarse carbides out of the edge, leaving the apex looking like Swiss cheese. The matrix isn't all that hard, and will flex back and forth and fracture, that might be the "foil edge" you are seeing. 1k is plenty for those edges, and they need to be fairly obtuse (40 degrees inclusive) in order to hold up. They fail by bending, so a couple fast swipes on a smooth steel can stand them back up and "sharpen" the knife instantly. Eventually that won't work any more and you have to go back to the stones, but that's how they work. Fine edges won't hold up. Carbon steel ones are similar, without the edge fragility from lost carbides. Still can't be sharpened at low angles, the edge folds over.

As far as using very fine grits goes, for food this isn't very useful. You need some "tooth" to cut things like tomatoes or peppers without crushing them, and I no longer use vertical strokes, always "push cut". Otherwise the tough cellulose fibers deflect under the blade. A 1K edge gently polished on a 6k stone and stropped a couple times gives you a nicely polished but slightly saw-toothed edge, perfect for food preparation. 

I'm totally uninterested in how much rope or cardboard a knife will cut, neither is any indication of how the knife will manage food. If I were a sailor re-rigging a sailing ship, yeah, how much rope my knife will cut might be useful, but then I'd be using D2 at maybe RC60 -- it's hard enough to sharpen at that hardeness, but those coarse carbides will stay put and provide excellent abrasion resistance. I'd not use a D2 knife for food, I prefer thinner and sharper knives -- D2 can be brittle in thin cross-section, and it, like CroMoVa, will NOT take a fine edge.


----------



## panda (Feb 18, 2019)

JBroida said:


> Just curious what the things you think I could have done better are? I have a bunch of things in mind that I’d like to re-do, but I rarely have the time nowadays.


Do a bare minimum layman's version with no words that a non knife person would not know. I call this 'retard proofing'. Use only.gesshin 600 stone then pull the edge from.back to front through a piece of cork 5 times. Done.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 18, 2019)

PS 


psfred said:


> One of the biggest problems with beginning to sharpen is that typically the person learning is doing so on a very dull, abused knife, often soft stainless, or on a brand new, factory edged knife. Neither is actually ready to sharpen unless someone who knows what they are doing sharpened it recently.
> 
> Beaten up stainless (or some of the cheap Asian ones) will take a long, long time on a 1k stone to get a good bevel established as they are badly rounded and often poorly sharpened to start with. I've gotten a few with about a 90 degree included angle bevel in fairly hard stainless, those eventually made a trip to the stand grinder to get enough steel off to put an edge on them. Basically had to regrind the blade, will someday put them on my new belt sander for that.
> 
> ...




psfred thank you for taking the time and reducing your knowledge to terms i can understand. Yes I was doing many things wrong I feel. Mainly way overkill. I in fact do find these knives just jump back into total sharpness with a few touches on the steel like you suggest. I do have one question as my 1K/8K King produces better results for me than my Shaptons do you think I can effectively use them as long as I keep trueing them up between sharpenings? Thank you for your help, it makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 18, 2019)

panda said:


> Do a bare minimum layman's version with no words that a non knife person would not know. I call this 'retard proofing'. Use only.gesshin 600 stone then pull the edge from.back to front through a piece of cork 5 times. Done.



I agree on the "retard proofing" I so much needed (and still may) that kind of information! Thank you!


----------



## inferno (Feb 18, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> PS
> 
> 
> 
> psfred thank you for taking the time and reducing your knowledge to terms i can understand. Yes I was doing many things wrong I feel. Mainly way overkill. I in fact do find these knives just jump back into total sharpness with a few touches on the steel like you suggest. I do have one question as my 1K/8K King produces better results for me than my Shaptons do you think I can effectively use them as long as I keep trueing them up between sharpenings? Thank you for your help, it makes a lot of sense.



You can use any stones you want. They will all make the knives sharp. Just get your technique down then you can use any stone.


----------



## Chef Doom (Feb 19, 2019)

Jeffrey McCue said:


> Hello all. I'm new here. Have 100's of hours sharpening and I'm still very much a rookie. I have pretty good results and long as I stay off my 12k Shapton stone. I use a KD 1000/6000 and get the knives pretty sharp.
> 
> When I go to the 12k it no longer feels right. Kinda skipping a little and the edge almost always dulls. Also I will feel the bur that I thought was gone by now roll over back and forth and the smallest of a "hairlike" metal strands break off and the knife is pretty dull then. It's like I'm breaking the edge off? I've tried light pressure, moderate pressure. Always very light contact going forward and the pressure comes when dragging the blade back.
> 
> I use all kinds of knives but I specialize in Old German Wusthofs. I do great as long as I don't use that 12K stone? Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? I'm sure it's a rookie mistake. thanks in advance!


What you are feeling is the dread of realizing you are a failure.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 19, 2019)

Chef Doom said:


> What you are feeling is the dread of realizing you are a failure.


Thank you for that!


----------



## psfred (Feb 25, 2019)

If you get good edges on a set of King stones, there is no reason to change. I don't, that's why I changes stones, along with the need to sharpen A2 steel plane blades. A King 1K will work, but nowhere near as well as a Bester 1200. Ditto for straight razors.

Sharp is all that really counts.


----------



## Cyrilix (Feb 26, 2019)

HugSeal said:


> One thing that made my edges a lot sharper was the realization that if I don't get a really sharp edge on the early ca. 1k stone then going to a higher grit won't really do much other than polish the sides of the edge.



Is that strictly true? If you spend enough time on the higher grit, it will be sharp.


----------



## galvaude (Feb 26, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Is that strictly true? If you spend enough time on the higher grit, it will be sharp.



For me on a dull knife (not a touch up) the edge has to be perfect and the bevels have to meet evenly across the whole edge from a coarse stone before going to the next stone. If I dont evenly slice paper towel off a 300 stone I don't go up.

Spending too much time on a higher grit stone is a good way to end up with a toothless and rounded edge or worse a small/weak wire edge.

HugSeal is right on point with his post, the foundation of a sharp edge is done on a coarse stone this is where you have to spend time.


----------



## Cyrilix (Feb 26, 2019)

galvaude said:


> For me on a dull knife (not a touch up) the edge has to be perfect and the bevels have to meet evenly across the whole edge from a coarse stone before going to the next stone. If I dont evenly slice paper towel off a 300 stone I don't go up.
> 
> Spending too much time on a higher grit stone is a good way to end up with a toothless and rounded edge or worse a small/weak wire edge.
> 
> HugSeal is right on point with his post, the foundation of a sharp edge is done on a coarse stone this is where you have to spend time.



How does that work in theory? Why would you end up with a wire edge on a fine stone? If you're keeping the angle consistent like you would with a coarser stone, then the fine stone will simply continue to scratch off the unevenness until your apex has a very small tolerance of toothiness (so not toothy) and your edge width should end up thinner than before. Rounding only comes when you wobble. Assuming you aren't wobbling, you won't be rounding.


----------



## galvaude (Feb 26, 2019)

Sorry I met you have a greater chance to end up with a rounded edge/wire etc...

If you spend a lot of time on a higher grit stone sharpening an edge from dull you simply have a lot more chances to screw up is all.

From my own expereicne, I get a much better edge if I start on a coarse stone, you can do whatever you like.


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 26, 2019)

psfred said:


> If you get good edges on a set of King stones, there is no reason to change. I don't, that's why I changes stones, along with the need to sharpen A2 steel plane blades. A King 1K will work, but nowhere near as well as a Bester 1200. Ditto for straight razors.
> 
> Sharp is all that really counts.


I've heard good things about that stone. I just ordered one. I'm due. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 26, 2019)

galvaude said:


> For me on a dull knife (not a touch up) the edge has to be perfect and the bevels have to meet evenly across the whole edge from a coarse stone before going to the next stone. If I dont evenly slice paper towel off a 300 stone I don't go up.
> 
> Spending too much time on a higher grit stone is a good way to end up with a toothless and rounded edge or worse a small/weak wire edge.
> 
> HugSeal is right on point with his post, the foundation of a sharp edge is done on a coarse stone this is where you have to spend time.


That is a lesson I just learned. years too late. All the info I watched and read never ever made that point! Lol I don't know why they wouldn't. I have had two mistake now that I have dissected my sharpening disfunctionalness! 1)Moving on to the next stone to before my knife was sharp. 2) If my knife accidently get sharp I just rounded the edge off on my higher grit stones. I do much better after this thread and everyone's help! Thank you!


----------



## Jeffrey McCue (Feb 26, 2019)

galvaude said:


> Sorry I met you have a greater chance to end up with a rounded edge/wire etc...
> 
> If you spend a lot of time on a higher grit stone sharpening an edge from dull you simply have a lot more chances to screw up is all.
> 
> From my own expereicne, I get a much better edge if I start on a coarse stone, you can do whatever you like.


Yes thank you 100% my problem!


----------



## Cyrilix (Feb 26, 2019)

galvaude said:


> Sorry I met you have a greater chance to end up with a rounded edge/wire etc...
> 
> If you spend a lot of time on a higher grit stone sharpening an edge from dull you simply have a lot more chances to screw up is all.
> 
> From my own expereicne, I get a much better edge if I start on a coarse stone, you can do whatever you like.



Fair enough. I see your point.


----------



## esoo (Feb 26, 2019)

Every stone will sharpen. You can take 20 passes at 500 grit or 2000 passes at 5000 grit to set a bevel. But every pass is a chance to wobble and mess something up. So reduce your passes and do the big work on the low grit and then just polish on higher.

I've recently had some great results with just going 400 > 2000, 20 passes per side and done.


----------



## HugSeal (Feb 26, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Is that strictly true? If you spend enough time on the higher grit, it will be sharp.



Sure. But that means you would spend a lot of time on that higher grit to perform the work you could have done much faster on a lower grit.

You can achieve a mirror polish by only using 10k+ grit polishing, but it will take ages to get even the smallest scratches out.


----------



## Ivan Hersh (Feb 26, 2019)

As a beginning novice i quickly found out that my King 1000/6000 did very little to a set of cheap Faberware hard stainless steel steak knives, i ordered a Nanwia #400 grit and found it worked much better as a first stone, then the King 1000 worked but i also found nothing really will make the cheep steel razor sharp.

I feel i am really ahead just using a natural Arkansas stone on these cheap knives.

My plan is to use a Nanwia #400 first then a Nanwia #800, followed by my King 1000/6000 on my better blade steel knives.


----------



## Ruso (Feb 27, 2019)

Skip either Naniwa 800 or King 1000. This stones essentially do the same thing.


----------



## Ivan Hersh (Feb 27, 2019)

Ruso said:


> Skip either Naniwa 800 or King 1000. This stones essentially do the same thing.


The Naniaw #800 is to replace the King #1000.


----------



## Foltest (Mar 8, 2019)

I wouldn't use 12k stone on most of western knives. They tend to be too soft to be able to support such edge. Composition of steel also plays role, it does not make sense to polish coarse grained steel on grit this high. I tend to finish softer stainless western knives in 5k range, pushcuts fine and has nice bite.


----------

