# Stones recommendations for high HRC, and vanadium carbide steels.



## jwthaparc (Dec 23, 2020)

So its christmas time, and I may just have a bit of extra money to buy myself a couple presents. So I thought why not get some stones that can help me sharpen those super tough modern steels. 

I find that my I run into a bit of trouble with my current stones when I have to sharpen one of these knives for someone. I have a atoma 140, and a dmt coarse (around 325 grit) that I can use to get the coarse work done. After that I start to have trouble. My chosera 800 does work, just not to the best extent. 

So I was hoping someone could give me some pointers on what I should look into getting. I would really prefer not to have to get diamond stones if at all possible, just because the price is insane. Maybe shapton glass? Kuromaku? Would either of those do better than the chosera?


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## Qapla' (Dec 23, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> So its christmas time, and I may just have a bit of extra money to buy myself a couple presents. So I thought why not get some stones that can help me sharpen those super tough modern steels.
> 
> I find that my I run into a bit of trouble with my current stones when I have to sharpen one of these knives for someone. I have a atoma 140, and a dmt coarse (around 325 grit) that I can use to get the coarse work done. After that I start to have trouble. My chosera 800 does work, just not to the best extent.
> 
> So I was hoping someone could give me some pointers on what I should look into getting. I would really prefer not to have to get diamond stones if at all possible, just because the price is insane. Maybe shapton glass? Kuromaku? Would either of those do better than the chosera?



The Sigma Power Select II 1000 (soak) comes to mind as being specialized for those sorts of steels.

As for diamond plates though, what price point constitutes insanity? I'm seeing DMT 1200's available for $63.


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## M1k3 (Dec 23, 2020)

JKI, Venev, Practical Sharpening or DMD diamond stones?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 23, 2020)

4%+ VC means diamond or CBN for best results.


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## Rangen (Dec 23, 2020)

I agree with HumbleHomeCook. Supersteels mean diamond or CBN. Venev is excellent, and I just checked the price of their 800/1200 combo stone online (at Gritomatic), and it's $91.00. It's what I'd get in your position. It's also what I have, and use, for these steels.


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## adam92 (Dec 23, 2020)

shapton glass, for high HRC.


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## Nemo (Dec 23, 2020)

Specifically which steels are we talking about here?


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## jwthaparc (Dec 23, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> As for diamond plates though, what price point constitutes insanity? I'm seeing DMT 1200's available for $63.


Not plates, I'm talking about diamond stones, that have diamond embedded in a medium, rather than diamond coated plates.

Diamond stones go for well over 100 dollars. 


Rangen said:


> I agree with HumbleHomeCook. Supersteels mean diamond or CBN. Venev is excellent, and I just checked the price of their 800/1200 combo stone online (at Gritomatic), and it's $91.00. It's what I'd get in your position. It's also what I have, and use, for these steels.



91 isn't too bad, considering it's a combo. I'll take a look at it. I really don't know much about what brands to look for or any of that when it comes to diamond/cbn. 

For some reason I really don't want the answer to my question to be that I'll have to give in and go the diamond/cbn route. It's honestly, pretty stupid of me, and I know it. I just really prefer japanese whetstones for sharpening. I'm going to have to put preference aside.


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## M1k3 (Dec 23, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> Not plates, I'm talking about diamond stones, that have diamond embedded in a medium, rather than diamond coated plates.
> 
> Diamond stones go for well over 100 dollars.
> 
> ...





Nemo said:


> Specifically which steels are we talking about here?


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## jwthaparc (Dec 23, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Specifically which steels are we talking about here?


Idk any of them. I have a side gig, sharpening people's knives at an outdoor market in front of some people's I know's knife shop. I get s30v pretty regularly, I've had 10v at least once. Just any steel you can imagine.


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## M1k3 (Dec 23, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> Idk any of them. I have a side gig, sharpening people's knives at an outdoor market in front of some people's I know's knife shop. I get s30v pretty regularly, I've had 10v at least once. Just any steel you can imagine.


Diamond. Vitrified or resin. Then you won't have to worry about the steel type. Even Rex121 won't be a problem then.


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## captaincaed (Dec 24, 2020)

Diamond seems to work well on gnarly steels.


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## Bolek (Dec 24, 2020)

DMD resin diamond stons are about $40 delivered from China, and Practical Sharpening when you can aford them.


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## Barmoley (Dec 24, 2020)

To me it is false economy, especially for someone that sharpens as a side gig. Surely your time is more valuable. If diamonds or CBN make it easier and faster it has to be worth it. That said in addition to what has been mentioned you could try king neo 800, I don't know about 10v but s30v class is not a problem for it. St3 version of the stone is thick so should last for some time. Also, Spyderco came out with CBN combo plate, not a stone though.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 24, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> To me it is false economy, especially for someone that sharpens as a side gig. Surely your time is more valuable. If diamonds or CBN make it easier and faster it has to be worth it. That said in addition to what has been mentioned you could try king neo 800, I don't know about 10v but s30v class is not a problem for it. St3 version of the stone is thick so should last for some time. Also, Spyderco came out with CBN combo plate, not a stone though.


Trust me I get it. I'm about to buy the Venev combo stone another user recommended. It's a hang up that I'm aware doesn't make sense. 

I'm going to get the 800/1200 stone. Seems like it should be good following my atoma 140 plate, and dmt 325 plastic piece of junk.


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## inferno (Dec 24, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> Trust me I get it. I'm about to buy the Venev combo stone another user recommended. It's a hang up that I'm aware doesn't make sense.
> 
> I'm going to get the 800/1200 stone. Seems like it should be good following my atoma 140 plate, and dmt 325 plastic piece of junk.



atoma 140 is too coarse for actual edges, this is for stones only imo. dmt steel plate 325 works well and get stuff sharp. according to science of sharp the 325 makes stuff sharper than the finer ones. look it up.

going up in grit you have SiC stones like the king neo, sigma 1k black, 8k green suehiro, and norton carborundum.

and all different diamond and cbn plates of course. these plates can be finer or coarser than the numbers suggest.


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## KKL81 (Dec 24, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> Trust me I get it. I'm about to buy the Venev combo stone another user recommended. It's a hang up that I'm aware doesn't make sense.
> 
> I'm going to get the 800/1200 stone. Seems like it should be good following my atoma 140 plate, and dmt 325 plastic piece of junk.



Be aware that the 800/1200 is in FEPA grit and not JIS. In JIS this correspond to 2000/4000 so this stone is very fine/slow.

Gritomatic also sells SiC water stones, and those are more efficient in the middle grits. Jef Jewel on Youtube reviews them very favorably.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 24, 2020)

KKL81 said:


> Be aware that the 800/1200 is in FEPA grit and not JIS. In JIS this correspond to 2000/4000 so this stone is very fine/slow.
> 
> Gritomatic also sells SiC water stones, and those are more efficient in the middle grits. Jef Jewel on Youtube reviews them very favorably.


Oh wow, I thought I read somewhere in the description that it was JIS. Thanks for the heads up I'll double check. 

Yeah I love jef jewel's channel.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 24, 2020)

KKL81 said:


> Be aware that the 800/1200 is in FEPA grit and not JIS. In JIS this correspond to 2000/4000 so this stone is very fine/slow.
> 
> Gritomatic also sells SiC water stones, and those are more efficient in the middle grits. Jef Jewel on Youtube reviews them very favorably.


In that case do you think I should get the 240/400 or the 400/800


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## jwthaparc (Dec 24, 2020)

inferno said:


> atoma 140 is too coarse for actual edges, this is for stones only imo.


Normally I would agree with you. With these steels though it seems to be an ok starting place. Especially considering how worn in my plate is. It now seems to leave marks as if it was a stone somewhere in the upper 200 grit level.


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## inferno (Dec 24, 2020)

i have a worn 400 atoma. but it kinda trashes the edges so i have to follow up with non diamonds anyway. i seriously dislike atomas for edges  

i have noticed that coarse regular stones don't really care about what steels they abrade. so i just use regular stones below lets say 1k. its faster than diamonds for me. and shallower scratches to get rid of. 

i'd say its above 1k you really want diamonds/cbn/SiC. Below it doesn't really matter much. shapton pro 1k works very well on s30v and hss for example.


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## jeffr (Dec 24, 2020)

What stones would be recommended for Hap40 knives please?


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## Boynutman (Dec 24, 2020)

OP, somewhat similar thread, maybe some useful suggestions here? (just to create some confusion when you had almost made up your mind )






good 1000 grit stone for R2 / VG10 / UX10?


My stainless knives (Takamura HSPS 210mm, Hattori HD 240mm, UX10 180mm) do not get as sharp as they should be and they tend to lack bite. Certainly compared to the carbon or semi-stainless knives I have. Insufficient deburring may play a role here but I am also ready to look at different stones...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Nemo (Dec 24, 2020)

jeff_hK7 said:


> What stones would be recommended for Hap40 knives please?


Choseras seem to work pretty well.

I'm sure that many of the usual suspects would as well.


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## Nemo (Dec 24, 2020)

I'm kinda imterested as to whether SiC sandpaper would do the trick on the super high alloyed steels.


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## inferno (Dec 24, 2020)

I have done some sharpening/thinning on sandpaper. mostly the coarse stuff. i get maybe 10 minutes out of a coarse SiC paper. i guess you have to try it. it will probably work better than alox in the high grits. the problem i think is finding high grit sic paper. low grit no problem though.

i did put different papers on a eccentric grinder and then the SiC papers lasted only 30 seconds or so. cubitrons lasted much much longer, maybe 10-15minutes.


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## Rangen (Dec 24, 2020)

Nemo's earlier question about what steels are being discussed here is on point.

I've sharpened M390 to an excellent edge on JNats. HAP40 seemed to sharpen on Shapton Glass just fine. S110V and Maxamet are a different story. Diamonds all the way (I'm sure CBN is fine too), and stop at a coarse grit for a nice toothy long lasting edge. You can polish M390, but it seems like a silly thing to even try with S110V. But if you are cutting cardboard boxes all day, as I have been doing lately, having just moved, a nice coarse S110V edge is just the thing.

I assume that no one is insane enough to make an S110V kitchen knife. But if someone did, I'd at least take a hard look at it. Tomatoes would quiver in fear.


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## James (Dec 24, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> JKI, Venev, Practical Sharpening or DMD diamond stones?


This. I have a DMD; works very well for my M390, HAP40, SLD and R2 knives.


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## M1k3 (Dec 24, 2020)

Rangen said:


> Nemo's earlier question about what steels are being discussed here is on point.
> 
> I've sharpened M390 to an excellent edge on JNats. HAP40 seemed to sharpen on Shapton Glass just fine. S110V and Maxamet are a different story. Diamonds all the way (I'm sure CBN is fine too), and stop at a coarse grit for a nice toothy long lasting edge. You can polish M390, but it seems like a silly thing to even try with S110V. But if you are cutting cardboard boxes all day, as I have been doing lately, having just moved, a nice coarse S110V edge is just the thing.
> 
> I assume that no one is insane enough to make an S110V kitchen knife. But if someone did, I'd at least take a hard look at it. Tomatoes would quiver in fear.


@Andrei has done Rex121.





My knives, Markin Andrei.


Gyuto with a central layer of Vanadis23 and stabilized burl walnut. Blade 250 / 58mm. Asymmetric convex. .




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Barmoley (Dec 24, 2020)

@Andrei has also done S110V I believe as well as s90V, K390, vanadis 10, and has m398 core for sale.


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## Andrei (Dec 25, 2020)

I hope my post will help the topicstarter.
Due to my occupation, I have to sharpen various steels, including modern monsters among steels, such as Rex121 and K390. In this case, I use a fairly simple set of stones.
An excellent fast working stone from a local Russian manufacturer (I don't know if I can give a link to the site) at 600grit, then Shapton Pro 1000, 2000, 5000, followed by a natural stone of 10000grit. Of course, natural stone almost does not work with high-alloy steels, but nevertheless, the nature of the knife cut after it changes noticeably for the better.
Perhaps my method works because I am sharpening a thin cutting edge, typically about 0.1mm thick, due to the small contact between the steel and the grindstone.
I also recommend going to the official website of Venev diamonds, there stones in the size 200/83/10 cost $ 50- $ 65 and the grain size is indicated in microns, which avoids confusion with the grain size by different standards. I also have two small Venev diamond stones, about which I can only say good things, but I do not use them when sharpening "monsters" as diamonds work much harder than ordinary stones.


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## Andrei (Dec 25, 2020)

3


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## KingShapton (Dec 25, 2020)

There have already been many good recommendations, here are a few tips from me. Admittedly, they are therotic, unfortunately I haven't had a HAP40 knife to sharpen (another item on my long-term wish list).

First a link to the website of fine-tools.com, there you will find a table on which you can find Shapton's recommendations for Shapton Pro's (Kuromaku) the right grit size for a certain steel. I don't know if the same recommendation applies to the Glass Stones, but they were made for high HRC numbers.






Advice on the choice of proper grain sizes of Shapton Water Stones and directions of use | FINE TOOLS


This table outlines Shaptons recommendations for the choosing from the variety of stones in their Ha-no-kuromaku line, the right grit sizes, and the gradations in which they should be used, to properly sharpen different kinds of knives and tools.



www.fine-tools.com





According to the table, for HSS (which includes HAP40) these would be # 220, # 1000 and # 12.000. Whether it makes sense to finish on # 12,000 is another issue, but the jump may give you a toothy edge that is also refined.

As others have written before me, Sigma Select II Stones will definitely work, the same goes for diamond / CBN.

In "the other forum" you can find more stones that work with HAP40 using the search function. To my great surprise you can find several posts there that the King 1200 also works well with HAP40. Again, there are experiences from third parties, I don't know whether it works.

However, I would be very happy about the King 1200 if it were true, it is one of my favorites among the synthetic stones anyway.

I hope this helps a little with the decision ?!

And before I completely forget, Merry Christmas to everyone reading this today.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 25, 2020)

I wanted to update. So I ordered a venev Phoenix 8×3 240/400. The 400/800 was out of stock. It was probably a good thing I think stopping at around 700 grit JIS is probably a good place for those super steels 10v, s30v, rex121 (if I happen to run into it). I'm actually wondering to myself if my jnats would work on them since if I recall correctly the abrasive is silicon


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## KingShapton (Dec 25, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> I wanted to update. So I ordered a venev Phoenix 8×3 240/400. The 400/800 was out of stock. It was probably a good thing I think stopping at around 700 grit JIS is probably a good place for those super steels 10v, s30v, rex121 (if I happen to run into it). I'm actually wondering to myself if my jnats would work on them since if I recall correctly the abrasive is silicon


Let us know how happy you are with it.


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## inferno (Dec 25, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> I wanted to update. So I ordered a venev Phoenix 8×3 240/400. The 400/800 was out of stock. It was probably a good thing I think stopping at around 700 grit JIS is probably a good place for those super steels 10v, s30v, rex121 (if I happen to run into it). I'm actually wondering to myself if my jnats would work on them since if I recall correctly the abrasive is silicon



these will probably be slower than regular stones. there is no real need imo for diamonds below 1k. the stones are so coarse so they just scoop out everything anyway. 

jnats might be silicon. but not silicon carbide (nor nitride).


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## jwthaparc (Dec 25, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> Let us know how happy you are with it.


Sure thing. I will try them on my knives right when I get them to see how they work with more traditional steel. Of course I will wait until I have to sharpen a customers super steels before I decide what my opinion will be.



inferno said:


> these will probably be slower than regular stones. there is no real need imo for diamonds below 1k. the stones are so coarse so they just scoop out everything anyway.
> 
> jnats might be silicon. but not silicon carbide (nor nitride).


Idk I kind of believe the people saying you need diamonds or cbn for some of the vanadium carbide steels. Those things aren't like blue super, or sg2 and the like. 

Good point about the silicone in jnats.


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## kayman67 (Dec 25, 2020)

I'd say under 1000 makes much more sense to have diamond or cbn plates in different binders, than above, if I would ever need to take one over the other.


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## inferno (Dec 25, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> Idk I kind of believe the people saying you need diamonds or cbn for some of the vanadium carbide steels. Those things aren't like blue super, or sg2 and the like.



you will soon find out. 

i have not had any problems with s30v (high hardness), r2, srs15 and real hss stuff with shapton pro1k and below. but as you get up to maybe 3-4k then you will notice that regular stones become slower with these steels compared to carbons and low alloyed ss like aeb-l/12c27/vg10 etc. 

i think its because the actual abrasive particles are so big in these stones compared to the carbides in the steel.
shapton 500 is 30micron particle size, 1k is 15micron. 4k is 3 micron. the carbides in these supersteels are 1-5 microns. the carbides reside at grain boundaries. with the coarse stones i get the feeling you can plow out several carbides deep/wide trenches in the steel. 

now the abrasives are usually not shaped like buckets of excavators and not all of them are sticking up of course. but if the abrasive size would have no meaning/effect at all then it would be impossible to sharpen any high carbide/hard carbide steels with regular stones. but it isn't.


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2020)

inferno said:


> these will probably be slower than regular stones. there is no real need imo for diamonds below 1k. the stones are so coarse so they just scoop out everything anyway.
> 
> jnats might be silicon. but not silicon carbide (nor nitride).


Depends. Resin bonded diamond aren't the fastest or slowest. They are consistent cutters though. Roughly the same cutting speed on simple carbon steel as on high alloy steels. And everything in between.


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2020)

And low grit diamond will give a more consistent edge versus low grit non-diamond stones.


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## KingShapton (Dec 25, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Depends. Resin bonded diamond aren't the fastest or slowest. They are consistent cutters though. Roughly the same cutting speed on simple carbon steel as on high alloy steels. And everything in between.


and you don't have to flatten them, so you save time.


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## inferno (Dec 25, 2020)

but they will clog though.


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2020)

inferno said:


> but they will clog though.


Eventually. Easy to deal with. Not any harder to fix than a dishing stone.


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## inferno (Dec 25, 2020)

i just did a little test here. i took my srs-15 blade and ran it on the 220 pro. then jumped from the 220 to the 12k shapton pro.
and to my surprise it only took about 3-4 minutes to erase those scratches and put on the 12k finish. the 12k finish is not a real mirror.

and yes while srs15 is not 10% vanadium its still 1,5% C. Mo 2,75%, W 1,25%, V 1,5%, so we have 5,5% carbide formers in there ontop of the 13% Cr.
what didn't take 4 minutes was trying to get 1 single sharp shot of the edge after the 12k. at 1:1 mag. handheld. no flash. only got one side of the image sharp.

so is diamonds really _*needed*_? i'd say no.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 25, 2020)

Nemo said:


> I'm kinda imterested as to whether SiC sandpaper would do the trick on the super high alloyed steels.




SiC or AlO2 stones or paper will work on high vanadium steels but only up to a point. I think it might have already been stated so forgive me if I'm repeating another poster, but when you hit 4%+ vanadium carbide content, things change. The carbides are small enough that at low grits you're removing enough of them with the matrix that it doesn't matter too much. When start getting past 400-600 ANSI grit, you experience increasing diminishing returns. The abrasive size starts to align with the carbide size and those ceramics are softer than the carbides so at best they will be abrading them.


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## dafox (Dec 25, 2020)

inferno said:


> i just did a little test here. i took my srs-15 blade and ran it on the 220 pro. then jumped from the 220 to the 12k shapton pro.
> and to my surprise it only took about 3-4 minutes to erase those scratches and put on the 12k finish. the 12k finish is not a real mirror.
> 
> and yes while srs15 is not 10% vanadium its still 1,5% C. Mo 2,75%, W 1,25%, V 1,5%, so we have 5,5% carbide formers in there ontop of the 13% Cr.
> ...


Which srs15 knife, I own a couple Akifusas now.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 25, 2020)

inferno said:


> i just did a little test here. i took my srs-15 blade and ran it on the 220 pro. then jumped from the 220 to the 12k shapton pro.
> and to my surprise it only took about 3-4 minutes to erase those scratches and put on the 12k finish. the 12k finish is not a real mirror.
> 
> and yes while srs15 is not 10% vanadium its still 1,5% C. Mo 2,75%, W 1,25%, V 1,5%, so we have 5,5% carbide formers in there ontop of the 13% Cr.
> ...




I think HT starts becoming a big factor here as if I recall it affects the carbide formation. I think I remember that chrome will form preferentially over vanadium. It would be interesting to know the elemental-carbide composition of the steel.


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2020)

inferno said:


> i just did a little test here. i took my srs-15 blade and ran it on the 220 pro. then jumped from the 220 to the 12k shapton pro.
> and to my surprise it only took about 3-4 minutes to erase those scratches and put on the 12k finish. the 12k finish is not a real mirror.
> 
> and yes while srs15 is not 10% vanadium its still 1,5% C. Mo 2,75%, W 1,25%, V 1,5%, so we have 5,5% carbide formers in there ontop of the 13% Cr.
> ...


For SRS-15, R2/SG2, etc. diamonds aren't necessary at all. Move up to S90V and up level, yes, definitely preferred.

OP wants to sharpen ALL steels. Not just know if diamonds are necessary for 2-3% vanadium steels.


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## inferno (Dec 25, 2020)

dafox said:


> Which srs15 knife, I own a couple Akifusas now.


a beater akifusa


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## inferno (Dec 25, 2020)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I think HT starts becoming a big factor here as if I recall it affects the carbide formation. I think I remember that chrome will form preferentially over vanadium. It would be interesting to know the elemental-carbide composition of the steel.



some of the carbide formers are stronger than others. the carbides they form can be softer or harder. and then you have multimetal carbides. like cr-carbides get doped with v to form harder cr carbides. W and V are the usual ones put in there for abrasion resistance.


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## Deadboxhero (Dec 26, 2020)

inferno said:


> some of the carbide formers are stronger than others. the carbides they form can be softer or harder. and then you have multimetal carbides. like cr-carbides get doped with v to form harder cr carbides. W and V are the usual ones put in there for abrasion resistance.


SRS -15 is mostly Chromium Carbide (M7C3)

Srs 15 has little vanadium and good amount of Chromium.

The ratio of C,Cr and V in that steel means it makes little Vanadium Carbide (MC) will form especially since the Vanadium element also has an affinity for forming with the chromium carbide.

Tungsten is not a strong enough carbide former to make its own carbides in the presence of stronger carbide formers.

It has to do with the atomic structure of W

It's outer election shell is too full especially it's sub D shell to want to make bonds with carbon and being a larger atom it has almost no zero mobility in the ocean of smaller iron atoms. So tungsten is not a strong enough of a forming element to make carbides of its own in the presence of that much Chromium.

Molybdenum is also weak at forming its own Carbides. Which is why there are no Molybdenum Monocarbides in steels like CPM 154 but rather it enriches and boosts the Chromium Carbide volume.





So they will both join with the Chromium and Vanadium Carbide upon cooling from liquid and or just be dissolved elements in the iron matrix during and after austenitizing. Dissolved tungsten will not have any appreciable effects compared to a steel that does not have dissolved tungsten either.

So the chromium carbide chemistry in a steel like SRS 15 will be Cr Mo V W Fe rich making up the "M"
For "Metallic Elements" in "M"7C3






A steel like SRS 15 will not really give problems on ceramic stones like a steel with more MC type Carbides.

I have a akifusa migaki 240mm in SRS15 that the manufacturer says is at 64rc that I have used on Choseras no problems.

The harder vanadium rich Chromium Carbides (M7C3) are still under 2000hv within the ranges of Alumina (Ceramic) abrasive hardness, Vanadium Carbide (MC) is 2800-3000HV so it gives softer alumina abrasive problems if the steel is heat treated to a harder matrix (60rc plus)and has significant volume of these particles.(+4% Vol.)

Here is a chart I made.


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## Deadboxhero (Dec 26, 2020)

Rangen said:


> Nemo's earlier question about what steels are being discussed here is on point.
> 
> I've sharpened M390 to an excellent edge on JNats. HAP40 seemed to sharpen on Shapton Glass just fine. S110V and Maxamet are a different story. Diamonds all the way (I'm sure CBN is fine too), and stop at a coarse grit for a nice toothy long lasting edge. You can polish M390, but it seems like a silly thing to even try with S110V. But if you are cutting cardboard boxes all day, as I have been doing lately, having just moved, a nice coarse S110V edge is just the thing.
> 
> I assume that no one is insane enough to make an S110V kitchen knife. But if someone did, I'd at least take a hard look at it. Tomatoes would quiver in fear.



I have some S110v that I think would be rad for a 240mm sujuhiki.

Currently been playing with CPM 15v at 66.4rc and Rex 121 at 71rc.
















Love the edge aggression and how ferociously it cuts.


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## inferno (Dec 26, 2020)

i tried the 220 shapton on a s30v microtech. then the 12k again. the 12k cuts it. s30v clogs up the stone faster than srs15 though.
is the shapton 12k the honey badger of stones? i kinda doubt it but it cuts s30v at least. s30v is the highest alloyed steel i have around here. 
so i can't test it on 10%V steels.


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## kayman67 (Dec 26, 2020)

This is highly misleading. In no test the sweet spot of 3-4% was problematic as far as "regular" stone cutting goes, but the edge retention started to be heavily in favor of diamonds or cbn abrasives. In a direct translation, you get way less than the best possible performance once you keep using the same stones, even if those can still form an edge. 
Going higher %V is a different story altogether.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 26, 2020)

Deadboxhero said:


> SRS -15 is mostly Chromium Carbide (M7C3)
> 
> Srs 15 has little vanadium and good amount of Chromium.
> 
> ...



Excellent as always Shawn.  I work in metallurgy every day and it's almost a dark art.


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## inferno (Dec 27, 2020)

is there any documented tests/videos online where someone has tested 
edge retention with diamonds vs regular stones on supersteels?

maybe at the same grit or with a similar resulting scratch pattern, since the type of binder will make stones behave finer/coarser than they are labelled. plated stones are always much coarser than regular stones for example.

preferably at realistic kitchen knife grits, above 2-3k jis.

i'm guessing there will be people who have tested and documented this considering how many guided sharpening systems there are.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 27, 2020)

inferno said:


> is there any documented tests/videos online where someone has tested
> edge retention with diamonds vs regular stones on supersteels?
> 
> maybe at the same grit or with a similar resulting scratch pattern, since the type of binder will make stones behave finer/coarser than they are labelled. plated stones are always much coarser than regular stones for example.
> ...


Idk about specifically diamonds, but cedric and ada gear and outdoors on YouTube tested how different angles and finishes effect different steels edge retention.


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## KingShapton (Dec 27, 2020)

There are countless studies on this. From users in forums in different countries, from scientific research and so on.

The problem is always the same, you cannot perform a standardized test and compare the results objectively. There are so many influences that the test results will always be subjective.

To name a few influences that influence the result ... The surface when cutting, the cut material used (there are no standardized vegetables, 2 tomatoes behave differently), the knife used (outdoor or kitchen knife), the thickness of the blade , the steel used, which grind, how much force was exerted when cutting, which cutting technique was used, how accurately the knife was sharpened, was a guided system used (with or without pressure relief) or freehand sharpened, how clean was the deburring and so on. ..

The results will vary on each, which does well on paper cutting tests will fail on raw and fatty meat, or on a whole celery ...

I have read a lot of such tests and also followed a lot of discussions in various forums and have come to the conclusion that the results vary too much to deal with the tests of others or with the related discussions.

As with so many things in life, everyone has to make their own experiences and find out what works for themselves. Everything else is a waste of time from a certain level! I prefer to try things out myself than to have endless theoretical discussions. At some point it is more about someone who wants to be right in the discussion and no longer about the actual topic.


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## KingShapton (Dec 27, 2020)

I have to add that I generally don't like to "over-theoretical" things. I like my own practical experience and that's part of the fun of this hobby.


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## KingShapton (Dec 27, 2020)

Please don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the exchange with experienced members here!

But it is about the exchange of personal experience from practice and not about any unrelated test results that are not easily reproducible.


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## inferno (Dec 27, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> Idk about specifically diamonds, but cedric and ada gear and outdoors on YouTube tested how different angles and finishes effect different steels edge retention.



i have seen many of his vids. it would be very nice if he made a test like this. i dont remember if he has done any similar test, i dont think he has.


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## inferno (Dec 27, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> There are countless studies on this. From users in forums in different countries, from scientific research and so on.
> 
> The problem is always the same, you cannot perform a standardized test and compare the results objectively. There are so many influences that the test results will always be subjective.
> 
> ...



i would be happy with a simple rope or cardboard test, until it wont cut paper any longer. but many substitutes would do.
same knife just finished on diamond once, and regular stones once. its not a hard test to do. 
also there are very many "supersteel" folders on the market that people already own.


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## KingShapton (Dec 27, 2020)

inferno said:


> i would be happy with a simple rope or cardboard test, until it wont cut paper any longer. but many substitutes would do.
> same knife just finished on diamond once, and regular stones once. its not a hard test to do.
> also there are very many "supersteel" folders on the market that people already own.


If you keep the test as simple as you suggested, then many influences fall away, that's true.

But the point remains, cutting the rope or cutting paper doesn't say so much about edge retention in the kitchen on different foods, just like the other way around.

With rope cutting tests you test the edge retention when cutting a rope, no more and no less.

If that's enough to get an impression, then this is a simple and, above all, practical test.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 27, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> If you keep the test as simple as you suggested, then many influences fall away, that's true.
> 
> But the point remains, cutting the rope or cutting paper doesn't say so much about edge retention in the kitchen on different foods, just like the other way around.
> 
> ...



This is why opinions on individual stones, grits, etc. for the same steels vary so widely among people. Different expectations, experiences and variables.

Funny enough, Michael Christy just put up a brand new video and in it he discusses how he is shifting from striving for quantitative results in favor of qualitative results. Basically he was saying that he's more interested in his own real-world usage results than side-by-side comparisons. If anyone is not familiar with his videos, I strongly suggest them. His focus is pocket knives and he's quite an unorthodox sharpener but his results are outstanding. 

Any time @Deadboxhero (aka Big Brown Bear) is having in depth sharpening and edge discussions with someone, it's a huge endorsement in my book.

I don't know if Todd has anything on Science of Sharp but I wouldn't be surprised if he has some images of different media on different steels.


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## inferno (Dec 27, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> If you keep the test as simple as you suggested, then many influences fall away, that's true.
> 
> But the point remains, cutting the rope or cutting paper doesn't say so much about edge retention in the kitchen on different foods, just like the other way around.
> 
> ...



it would give you an indication if a is better than b on media c.
cardboard and rope is cheap and quite consistent.
i have an almost unlimited supply of cardboard at work. that we simply throw away.

i think testing like this is very interesting. i mean if i got a really high alloyed (and expensive) knife for the sole reason that it will keep its sharpness for a very long time. it would be in my interest to make sure it kept its sharpness for the absolute longest time. and i would use the best tools accessible to me to get there.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 27, 2020)

inferno said:


> it would give you an indication if a is better than b on media c.
> cardboard and rope is cheap and quite consistent.
> i have an almost unlimited supply of cardboard at work. that we simply throw away.
> 
> i think testing like this is very interesting. i mean if i got a really high alloyed (and expensive) knife for the sole reason that it will keep its sharpness for a very long time. it would be in my interest to make sure it kept its sharpness for the absolute longest time. and i would use the best tools accessible to me to get there.



I surely don't want to speak for @KingShapton but I believe his point is, that any such test, even with the variables as eliminated or controlled as possible, will still only tell you the edge performance on the cutting medium. Even CATRA only tells us so much due to the cut style and medium used.

It is through usage across a broad spectrum of items and varying tasks that will give each individual user the real knowledge for their uses.


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## Barmoley (Dec 27, 2020)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I surely don't want to speak for @KingShapton but I believe his point is, that any such test, even with the variables as eliminated or controlled as possible, will still only tell you the edge performance on the cutting medium. Even CATRA only tells us so much due to the cut style and medium used.
> 
> It is through usage across a broad spectrum of items and varying tasks that will give each individual user the real knowledge for their uses.


This is undeniably true, but just because tests are difficult to design and don't mirror "real world" exactly, doesn't mean they are not useful or valuable. Can you imagine if they didn't use testing or modeling when designing and building airplanes? You can't exactly test how an airplane behaves in the "real world" either until it is finished and is being used. We can't all use every single knife in every steel for our selves. Well designed tests absolutely give us a good idea of how different steels or geometries or whatever will work in use. Sure media is different and sharpening is different and the rest, but there is very good correlation between catra, rope cutting, cardboard. Thus there must be good correlation between these tests and other uses as long as you understand the mechanism of failure in your particular case and what affects it.

After all same reasoning can be extended from one person using a knife and a different person using the same knife. What is the point of sharing experiences at all if we are so different and our uses are so different. Why are we even discussing stuff, we sharpen differently cutting technique is different, material is different, etc. At least in standardised tests most variables can be controlled.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 27, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> This is undeniably true, but just because tests are difficult to design and don't mirror "real world" exactly, doesn't mean they are not useful or valuable. Can you imagine if they didn't use testing or modeling when designing and building airplanes? You can't exactly test how an airplane behaves in the "real world" either until it is finished and is being used. We can't all use every single knife in every steel for our selves. Well designed tests absolutely give us a good idea of how different steels or geometries or whatever will work in use. Sure media is different and sharpening is different and the rest, but there is very good correlation between catra, rope cutting, cardboard. Thus there must be good correlation between these tests and other uses as long as you understand the mechanism of failure in your particular case and what affects it.
> 
> After all same reasoning can be extended from one person using a knife and a different person using the same knife. What is the point of sharing experiences at all if we are so different and our uses are so different. Why are we even discussing stuff, we sharpen differently cutting technique is different, material is different, etc. At least in standardised tests most variables can be controlled.



Surely not arguing against standardized testing. My only point was that the results should be bracketed and taken in perspective. Clearly, even with the mass amount of edge retention testing out there, people still continue to discuss and debate the topic and the tests themselves so universal consensus has yet to be achieved. Maybe for no other reasons than we just like to discuss and debate the topic.


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## inferno (Dec 27, 2020)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I surely don't want to speak for @KingShapton but I believe his point is, that any such test, even with the variables as eliminated or controlled as possible, will still only tell you the edge performance on the cutting medium. Even CATRA only tells us so much due to the cut style and medium used.
> 
> It is through usage across a broad spectrum of items and varying tasks that will give each individual user the real knowledge for their uses.



yes of course you only get results for 1 single test media. but 1 known result is better than 0.
the thing with the broad spectrum/task use for each individual is that no one can keep track of anything. and in the end it just what people "feel" or think/believe.

its the same with audio. there are many people that claim to hear the difference between this or that dac/cable/cd-player/turntable/whatever. and for them its a "night and day difference obviously audible to anyone", and then when this is tested in a controlled test no one can hear any difference at all. how can this be?? it could be that the "audio memory" is so short so its simply impossible to tell any difference if the difference is small enough. i dont know.

people almost always overestimate their abilities to do pretty much everything. its just how it works. this is why tests are good.
there is a saying. 1 measurement is worth 1000 audiophiles opinions.

with that being said. if 1000 people thinks 1 thing and not the other they are probably on to something.


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## Barmoley (Dec 27, 2020)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Surely not arguing against standardized testing. My only point was that the results should be bracketed and taken in perspective. Clearly, even with the mass amount of edge retention testing out there, people still continue to discuss and debate the topic and the tests themselves so universal consensus has yet to be achieved. Maybe for no other reasons than we just like to discuss and debate the topic.


Definitely, but the debates are mostly due to people not understanding what the tests are telling them or purely because they refuse to believe the results for their favorite steel, stone, geometry, etc. Those two reasons can explain most of the debates on the subject.


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## M1k3 (Dec 27, 2020)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> This is why opinions on individual stones, grits, etc. for the same steels vary so widely among people. Different expectations, experiences and variables.
> 
> Funny enough, Michael Christy just put up a brand new video and in it he discusses how he is shifting from striving for quantitative results in favor of qualitative results. Basically he was saying that he's more interested in his own real-world usage results than side-by-side comparisons. If anyone is not familiar with his videos, I strongly suggest them. His focus is pocket knives and he's quite an unorthodox sharpener but his results are outstanding.
> 
> ...


Science of Sharp did do some tests on maxamet. In a nutshell, natural and Shapton Glass 8k abraded the surrounding matrix while leaving carbides exposed. The article was also about carbide fallout. Results inconclusive.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 27, 2020)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> This is why opinions on individual stones, grits, etc. for the same steels vary so widely among people. Different expectations, experiences and variables.
> 
> Funny enough, Michael Christy just put up a brand new video and in it he discusses how he is shifting from striving for quantitative results in favor of qualitative results. Basically he was saying that he's more interested in his own real-world usage results than side-by-side comparisons. If anyone is not familiar with his videos, I strongly suggest them. His focus is pocket knives and he's quite an unorthodox sharpener but his results are outstanding.
> 
> ...


I didn't know big brown bear was a member here. I watch his videos all the time.


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## M1k3 (Dec 27, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> I didn't know big brown bear was a member here. I watch his videos all the time.


Me either.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 27, 2020)

He is indeed. Under the moniker DeadboxHero, Shawn has provided me and many others a ton of advice and insight over the years on different forums. I was excited when I seen he was here as well.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 27, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Definitely, but the debates are mostly due to people not understanding what the tests are telling them or purely because they refuse to believe the results for their favorite steel, stone, geometry, etc. Those two reasons can explain most of the debates on the subject.




Again, if someone wants to do the tests, I'm all for it. Look forward to the results!


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 27, 2020)

Shawn and Larrin did the most comprehensive edge retention testing I've personally ever seen. Great work! Truly ground breaking stuff. But it still only informs me so much. It tells me that if I use an Edge Pro with the same stones and skills as Shawn and have a knife made out of a given steel at the same hardness and geometry as what Shawn produced, then when cutting impregnated cardboard, I can expect a given result.

It is a baseline, a representation, it is data for me to consider and of which I genuinely appreciate, but for me, my skills, my uses, the knife I'm choosing etc., it is highly likely I won't realize those same results.

That's all I was getting at. Not that testing is bad in any way, it surely is not. But, folks just need to be aware that it only informs us to certain degrees and all things must be considered when applying the information to personal usage.


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## inferno (Dec 27, 2020)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Shawn and Larrin did the most comprehensive edge retention testing I've personally ever seen. Great work! Truly ground breaking stuff. But it still only informs me so much. It tells me that if I use an Edge Pro with the same stones and skills as Shawn and have a knife made out of a given steel at the same hardness and geometry as what Shawn produced, then when cutting impregnated cardboard, I can expect a given result.
> 
> It is a baseline, a representation, it is data for me to consider and of which I genuinely appreciate, but for me, my skills, my uses, the knife I'm choosing etc., it is highly likely I won't realize those same results.
> 
> That's all I was getting at. Not that testing is bad in any way, it surely is not. But, folks just need to be aware that it only informs us to certain degrees and all things must be considered when applying the information to personal usage.



i think most of these test can give you a pretty good idea about what to expect when talking how much you can cut with a certain steel until its dull. 
sure the HT will be different than off the shelf knives. geometry different etc. 

but you can't really test off the shelf knives either because the geometry is different, thickness different, HT can vary from batch to batch etc etc etc. so you're basically testing apples vs oranges then.

all tests are just 1 data point. thats it. and everyone needs to judge how important it is for them.

personally i'm fairly happy with some of the lower end steels (low toughness/edge retention) like aus8, vg10, blue2. for me they are good enough. when they go dull i just resharpen them. i don't really care if they last shorter than my r2 blades. because they were cheap. and i have stones.


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## inferno (Dec 27, 2020)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Again, if someone wants to do the tests, I'm all for it. Look forward to the results!



i would like to do some tests. but i dont have any real high carbide kitchen knife. nor any diamonds above maybe 5-600 grit (only plates). 
testing is fun.

the last test i did was with cardboard. i was supposed to cut cardboard until my knives didn't cut copy paper cleanly anymore. all had 4k edges iirc.
i decided try do my kurosaki r2 santoku first. i ended up cutting cardboard for 2h straight, and the knife still cut copy paper like new. and then the handle cracked in 2  and that was my baseline knife. 

in the end the knife cuts so much cardboard without dulling its almost completely irrelevant to home kitchen use. thats a result too i guess.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 27, 2020)

inferno said:


> personally i'm fairly happy with some of the lower end steels (low toughness/edge retention) like aus8, vg10, blue2. for me they are5 good enough. when they go dull i just resharpen them. i don't reallreally like this because but if they last shorter than my r2 blades. because they were cheap. and i have stones.


Same. If anything I want steel that has the ability to get extremely sharp more than edge retention. Like white #2. I enjoy the act of sharpening so, if my super thin tojiro santoku goes dull after one day cooking I'm not actually upset if it goes dull quickly.


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## kayman67 (Dec 28, 2020)

I disagree with the lack of need for theory, science, numbers, no matter how far they go. But I guess that's just me. True, sometimes is more of a principle, but it's one thing to consider it as such and another to completely disregard it. 

Even with this huge variety and number of experiences, there is enough common ground amongst them and all are a great opportunity to access ideas and scenarios that otherwise would be inaccessible. Many times I found new things that I could work with or not, but still things maybe I would have never considered myself. 

Michael Christy has a very solid knowledge based on his first hand observations while using the knives. I imagine he got tired of all the debates and comparisons. I guess we all do eventually.


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## Dominick Maone (Dec 28, 2020)

You all are some picky folks if you do not appreciate Knifesteelnerds Catra study. Larrin mentions that some steels would have performed better with different media. But surely anyone can glean some insight from this amazing test. For instance- if you would like a knife that cuts carpet forever. What will you do since no one has ever tested the cutting performance on carpet? But if someone has, what if they cut 20 oz carpet and you are cutting 28 oz carpet. Just disregard those results? Well, you can probably look at Larrin's study and say, surely Rex 121 will cut carpet longer than AEBL. It would be foolish to say, THERE'S JUST NO WAY TO TELL SINCE HIS TEST WAS ON CATRA MEDIA. One major factor in science is that you have to eliminate variables. Maybe Larrin will use the CATRA machine with tomatoes next time and everyone here will be happier, unless they usually cut carrots.

Back on topic, I have seen DMD diamond stones recommended before. I am working on the courage to buy them now, just need to explain it to the girlfriend. They are about 45 US on aliexpress. I am not sure about the link posting rules, but here it is for now.








43.26US $ 20% OFF|Japanischen Schärfen Stein 1000 3000 6000 12000 Körnung Professionelle Diamant Harz Schleifstein Messer Spitzer Schleifen Schleifstein|Schärfer| - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




de.aliexpress.com


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## inferno (Dec 28, 2020)

Dominick Maone said:


> You all are some picky folks if you do not appreciate Knifesteelnerds Catra study. Larrin mentions that some steels would have performed better with different media. But surely anyone can glean some insight from this amazing test. For instance- if you would like a knife that cuts carpet forever. What will you do since no one has ever tested the cutting performance on carpet? But if someone has, what if they cut 20 oz carpet and you are cutting 28 oz carpet. Just disregard those results? Well, you can probably look at Larrin's study and say, surely Rex 121 will cut carpet longer than AEBL. It would be foolish to say, THERE'S JUST NO WAY TO TELL SINCE HIS TEST WAS ON CATRA MEDIA. One major factor in science is that you have to eliminate variables. Maybe Larrin will use the CATRA machine with tomatoes next time and everyone here will be happier, unless they usually cut carrots.
> 
> Back on topic, I have seen DMD diamond stones recommended before. I am working on the courage to buy them now, just need to explain it to the girlfriend. They are about 45 US on aliexpress. I am not sure about the link posting rules, but here it is for now.
> 
> ...



i think everyone appreciates the catra test. its an accelerated wear study. i know first hand why one would use the silica impregnated card stock. its because if you would be cutting cardboard or rope with any type of high performance powdersteel with a typical kitchen knife blade; you might be cutting to the "end of eternity" until you dulled the edge enough. and cutting actual food would take even longer time.

its simply not realistic to test knives on food because it takes way too long time to get any useable results except with maybe simple carbon steels. there is also too many variables with food to make the test scientific.

cedric and ada outdoors does an interesting rope cutting test that gets results quite similar to larrins test. but he tests with off the shelf knives.

however i think most people here will resharpen a long time before knives can't cut paper anymore. because then the knives are very dull.
i resharpen as soon as i deem the edge not "very sharp" anymore.

its kinda hard to judge where this point is, and to somehow quantify that with some easy test is even harder. there is the bess tester of course.


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## M-S-T (Dec 28, 2020)

That is one of those topics, where is no absolute truth. I don't think you need diamonds for everything. I think if we are talking tipical production kitchen cutlery- modern waterstones are more than capable to complete the task. They are even capable to handle production stuff up to s90v. BUT everything changes dramatically with custom HT and the closer you are to the 10v class the more you'll hate your waterstones. That's just the reality of things. But you need to experience it yourself to truly understand it.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 28, 2020)

M-S-T said:


> That is one of those topics, where is no absolute truth. I don't think you need diamonds for everything. I think if we are talking tipical production kitchen cutlery- modern waterstones are more than capable to complete the task. They are even capable to handle production stuff up to s90v. BUT everything changes dramatically with custom HT and the closer you are to the 10v class the more you'll hate your waterstones. That's just the reality of things. But you need to experience it yourself to truly understand it.


We aren't talking about typical kitchen cutlery. I get super steel knives to sharpen on a semi regular basis. One day I had to sharpen 3 10v knives in a row, on my waterstones. With the customers standing there watching me do it. I was just there on my chosera with the knife sliding across it like it was glass. 

Anyway, the venev Phoenix 240/400 should be shipping today (hopefully). So I will likely have it by next weekend if everything goes well.


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## Jovidah (Dec 28, 2020)

If you're offering sharpening services I guess you might see more of those super steels. Customers probably struggled to sharpen them themselves and figured they'd offload their problem to a professional.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 28, 2020)

Jovidah said:


> If you're offering sharpening services I guess you might see more of those super steels. Customers probably struggled to sharpen them themselves and figured they'd offload their problem to a professional.


That, and I see a lot of knives that look like they have never been sharpened, or they look like someone tried to sharpen it by running the edge on a sidewalk.


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## M-S-T (Dec 28, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> We aren't talking about typical kitchen cutlery. I get super steel knives to sharpen on a semi regular basis. One day I had to sharpen 3 10v knives in a row, on my waterstones. With the customers standing there watching me do it. I was just there on my chosera with the knife sliding across it like it was glass.
> 
> Anyway, the venev Phoenix 240/400 should be shipping today (hopefully). So I will likely have it by next weekend if everything goes well.



So you have experienced the pain first-hand. If you are sharpening for money superabrasives is a must to have. Time management is essential to make decent profits.


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## Barmoley (Dec 28, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> We aren't talking about typical kitchen cutlery. I get super steel knives to sharpen on a semi regular basis. One day I had to sharpen 3 10v knives in a row, on my waterstones. With the customers standing there watching me do it. I was just there on my chosera with the knife sliding across it like it was glass.
> 
> Anyway, the venev Phoenix 240/400 should be shipping today (hopefully). So I will likely have it by next weekend if everything goes well.


This is why some pages back I said that you shouldn't skimp on the stones and just get diamonds, which is what you got so hopefully it will work better. Once you said it is your side gig and 10V class is in play, there is no question you need quality diamond or CBN especially at finer grit. It is one thing when someone sharpens one folder in 10V once a year, but for you the time wasted and frustration can't possibly be worth the savings on the stones.


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## Ruso (Dec 28, 2020)

Even S30V can be challenging on regular water stones; and its a basic "super steel" that does not excite anyone.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 28, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> This is why some pages back I said that you shouldn't skimp on the stones and just get diamonds, which is what you got so hopefully it will work better. Once you said it is your side gig and 10V class is in play, there is no question you need quality diamond or CBN especially at finer grit. It is one thing when someone sharpens one folder in 10V once a year, but for you the time wasted and frustration can't possibly be worth the savings on the stones.


Yeah. I'm hoping they get here before the weekend. I'm going to be back out there Saturday, and it would be nice to have that with me. I can get by with what I have now, but like you said, the extra time and frustration counts for something.

Plus if people dont know much about steel, or sharpening and they see me taking forever with their knife, it can make me look bad. Most people just drop there knife off and come back later. There are some that stand there and watch me the whole time, and if makes me feel rushed and kinda uncomfortable in general. For some reason the people with the super steels seem to fall into the second category, not always, but most of the time.


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## M1k3 (Dec 28, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> Yeah. I'm hoping they get here before the weekend. I'm going to be back out there Saturday, and it would be nice to have that with me. I can get by with what I have now, but like you said, the extra time and frustration counts for something.
> 
> Plus if people dont know much about steel, or sharpening and they see me taking forever with their knife, it can make me look bad. Most people just drop there knife off and come back later. There are some that stand there and watch me the whole time, and if makes me feel rushed and kinda uncomfortable in general. For some reason the people with the super steels seem to fall into the second category, not always, but most of the time.


I'd not only get something finer in the future, something coarser should be in your near future.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I'd not only get something finer in the future, something coarser should be in your near future.


I've got the atoma 140. It usually makes quick work of anything I throw at it.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 28, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> I've got the atoma 140. It usually makes quick work of anything I throw at it.



If you get a hankering for another fast working stone, the Baryonyx Manticore chews up pretty much everything.


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## inferno (Dec 28, 2020)

Ruso said:


> Even S30V can be challenging on regular water stones; and its a basic "super steel" that does not excite anyone.



all the regular japanese supersteels are slower than blue and whites of course. but not impossible. with shaptons s30v works, r2/sg2 works, srs15 works. i would guess hap40 to work too. 

i have no idea how other brands of stones will work though. i would guess king hyper and choseras to work just as good as shaptons. dont know about the classic kings. i have a few stones at home that i'm guessing will not work very well or be very slow.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 28, 2020)

inferno said:


> all the regular japanese supersteels are slower than blue and whites of course. but not impossible. with shaptons s30v works, r2/sg2 works, srs15 works. i would guess hap40 to work too.
> 
> i have no idea how other brands of stones will work though. i would guess king hyper and choseras to work just as good as shaptons. dont know about the classic kings. i have a few stones at home that i'm guessing will not work very well or be very slow.


I mean. It's not that it can't be done with my waterstones. It's just not practical in my case. I personally would prefer if I didn't need to go with diamond or cbn, just because I like my Japanese stones more.


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## Rangen (Dec 28, 2020)

It's surprising how straightforward it is to sharpen kitchen knives by hand on an Edge Pro form factor stone, and they're much cheaper than bench stones. Also a good way to explore.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 28, 2020)

Rangen said:


> It's surprising how straightforward it is to sharpen kitchen knives by hand on an Edge Pro form factor stone, and they're much cheaper than bench stones. Also a good way to explore.


I may buy some in the future. If I do end up spending money I would rather spend the extra bit of money on the bench stone size. You know the saying buy once cry once.


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## M-S-T (Dec 28, 2020)

I agree. Some faster stones can do it though. Even though I'm a big believer in superabrasives I'm not going to scream that you need diamonds for everything with a 4%+ of V. Can it be done? Yes. Is it very efective? Ofcourse not.


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## inferno (Dec 29, 2020)

Rangen said:


> It's surprising how straightforward it is to sharpen kitchen knives by hand on an Edge Pro form factor stone, and they're much cheaper than bench stones. Also a good way to explore.



often you can get a full set small stones for the price of 1 bench stone. 
for large and/or very curved knives taking the stone to the blade is usually easier imo.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 1, 2021)

Btw I got my venev Phoenix 240/400 in a day or two ago. I dont own any super steels myself, but I couldn't help myself. So I tried it with my vg10, and white 2. I actually kinda like it. The finish is better than diamond coated plates imo.

I tested positive for covid so I can't go to sharpen knives for people this weekend which is a big disappointment, because I really wanted to test this thing out. (Btw it looks like I'm asymptomatic so no worries. At worst I feel a little off when I first wake up in the morning, then after that I'm fine.)


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## inferno (Jan 1, 2021)

do a shootout with some other stones to judge speed and finish.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 1, 2021)

inferno said:


> do a shootout with some other stones to judge speed and finish.


Idk if I have to many comparable grit stones. Maybe I could put the 240 side against my cerax 320, dmt coarse, and king 300. Then the 400 side (about 700 jis I believe) against my chosera 800, and king 1200, I also sort of have about a mm thick falling apart "new cerax" 1000 grit, that might be useable for testing purposes, and of coarse my aoto (which will definitely lose).


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## jwthaparc (Jan 1, 2021)

inferno said:


> do a shootout with some other stones to judge speed and finish.


I looked it up, the 240 is pretty comparable too my 300ish jis stones so I can do that.


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## inferno (Jan 1, 2021)

you could simply test which stones give you the most similar finish compared to the d-plate.
and then test if those very stones are either faster or slower than the plate.

thats a good test imo.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 1, 2021)

inferno said:


> you could simply test which stones give you the most similar finish compared to the d-plate.
> and then test if those very stones are either faster or slower than the plate.
> 
> thats a good test imo.


Here is the finish of a few stones on a wide bevel compared to the 240 side. I'll do a speed test in a little. (I think the venev comes in second for finish, cerax is the winner for me, surprise, surprise.)

Dmt coarse, the worst of the 4






Venev 240 my second favorite





King 300, 3rd place imo





Cerax 320, not too bad.


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## inferno (Jan 2, 2021)

the 240 side definitely seems to be in the 300 grit range.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 2, 2021)

inferno said:


> the 240 side definitely seems to be in the 300 grit range.


It is 240 FEPA F, I think it translates to roughly 300ish or so JIS. I dont remember the exact conversion. The 400 is about 700 grit JIS. So the closest I'll be comparing it to, are my king 1200, chosera 800, "new cerax" 1000, and an aoto.

I'll be doing the test on finish with those. Then I'll go back to the 240(and the other ones in that range), and test speed on a cheap kiwi knife I dont care about wasting. Then follow up with the 400 for speed(and the other ones).

Too bad I dont have a super steel to run a test on.


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## shinyunggyun (Jan 2, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> So its christmas time, and I may just have a bit of extra money to buy myself a couple presents. So I thought why not get some stones that can help me sharpen those super tough modern steels.
> 
> I find that my I run into a bit of trouble with my current stones when I have to sharpen one of these knives for someone. I have a atoma 140, and a dmt coarse (around 325 grit) that I can use to get the coarse work done. After that I start to have trouble. My chosera 800 does work, just not to the best extent.
> 
> So I was hoping someone could give me some pointers on what I should look into getting. I would really prefer not to have to get diamond stones if at all possible, just because the price is insane. Maybe shapton glass? Kuromaku? Would either of those do better than the chosera?


I vouch for king hyper after having many successful, fast sharpenings with ZDP 189 and HAP 40 steels.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 2, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> I vouch for king hyper after having many successful, fast sharpenings with ZDP 189 and HAP 40 steels.


I ended up getting venev resin bonded diamond stones. Its good for 10v, maxamet, and s90v type steels. I actually do want to pick up a king hyper at some point in the future though. I've heard there is a hyper 2000. I don't have a 2000 yet so that would be nice to add to my little stone collection.


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## inferno (Jan 2, 2021)

i have the king hyper 1k not the soft one. its a good soaker. semi hard for a soaker. its about the same speed as naniwa 800 and shapton pro 1k give or take. it makes a very contrasty kasumi, but full of silver streaks! all in all i rather just whip out the shapton because it dries faster.

2 good 2k stones, shapton pro and nianiwa pro. very good.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 2, 2021)

Here are the 400 grit (700 JIS) comparisons. I'm getting a bit tired so I didn't make the finish on the wide bevel as perfect as possible. However they are good enough to give an idea of what each stone can do.

I honestly have a hard time picking between them. I think the new cerax 1000 looks the best, however the stone wears way to fast so it looses some points in my book. The next best in the lineup is the king 1200, and it wears much slower. The aoto did the worst on the finish, but hey it's awesome for edge work. 

Here is the venev 240 it looks very nice for a diamond stone. 




Next is the chosera 800





Cerax 1000





This is my cerax to give you an idea of how worn down it is. 




King 1200





Tanba aoto


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## M1k3 (Jan 2, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> .
> I tested positive for covid so I can't go to sharpen knives for people this weekend which is a big disappointment, because I really wanted to test this thing out. (Btw it looks like I'm asymptomatic so no worries. At worst I feel a little off when I first wake up in the morning, then after that I'm fine.)


For me, around the end of the first week, I lost smell and taste and was asleep around 6 or 7 at night. Hope you recover fast.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 2, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> For me, around the end of the first week, I lost smell and taste and was asleep around 6 or 7 at night. Hope you recover fast.


Me too. The test I took was last Wednesday. So it's been well over a week at least. Tonight I'm just starting to feel a bit under the weather. More off, and tired than anything. I took some acetaminophen, and decided to call it a night, for messing with my stones.


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## Ruso (Jan 2, 2021)

Get well soon!


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## kayman67 (Jan 3, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Here are the 400 grit (700 JIS) comparisons.
> ...




While this is a more natural usage around here, might be somewhat underusing their potential.
At some point I saw something very interesting with leather cutting tools that translated into other types of usage more than I could have imagined. Using these plates made everything very easy, but at the same time, very efficient.
There was a very distinct increase in performance with close to no effort. Those tools never worked so well after just a few passes or any amount on any grit or type of a more traditional stone. This is one area where the gain is very different than just what the scratch pattern might suggest. Another interesting thing might be that the alloy didn't really matter. Anything was faster and maxed out in that amount of time. This is their secret power. Makes no real difference what the alloy is, being on top of the abrasives chain. But, I guess, a wider range of alloys might be needed to fully grasp just how much of a difference you get once you go up with the more demanding ones, top being, in my experience anyway, CPM REX 121.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 3, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> While this is a more natural usage around here, might be somewhat underusing their potential.
> At some point I saw something very interesting with leather cutting tools that translated into other types of usage more than I could have imagined. Using these plates made everything very easy, but at the same time, very efficient.
> There was a very distinct increase in performance with close to no effort. Those tools never worked so well after just a few passes or any amount on any grit or type of a more traditional stone. This is one area where the gain is very different than just what the scratch pattern might suggest. Another interesting thing might be that the alloy didn't really matter. Anything was faster and maxed out in that amount of time. This is their secret power. Makes no real difference what the alloy is, being on top of the abrasives chain. But, I guess, a wider range of alloys might be needed to fully grasp just how much of a difference you get once you go up with the more demanding ones, top being, in my experience anyway, CPM REX 121.


I just wanted to use it on something big enough that I could actually get a good picture of what kind of scratch pattern it leaves. Then compare it to others. 

I plan on just using it for sharpening customers supersteel knives when they get brought to me.


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## SeattleB (Jan 4, 2021)

What do the knife makers use to sharpen these steels? I'm new to all of this. I read posts that state certain steels are difficult to sharpen, or that stainless-clad knives are no good because stainless "gums up the stones" or whatever. I always wonder what the blacksmiths use. They don't seem to have a problem.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 4, 2021)

SeattleB said:


> What do the knife makers use to sharpen these steels? I'm new to all of this. I read posts that state certain steels are difficult to sharpen, or that stainless-clad knives are no good because stainless "gums up the stones" or whatever. I always wonder what the blacksmiths use. They don't seem to have a problem.



It isn't exactly accurate to say the makers don't have a problem with some steels. They very much do. Ask Sal Glesser of Spyderco what it takes to cut and grind Maxamet.  But it is all added costs and that's why high-alloy steels often cost so much more than others. Most large manufacturers will use a lot of fresh belts and most leave a pretty course edge (on most all steels).

Small makers will often finish on stones.


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