# ??? A metric truckload of Questions ???



## Culverin (May 23, 2015)

Hiya,
Hoping you guys might be able to help guide me into towards taking sharpening more seriously.

Any glaring errors to my setup?
Is a full Naniwa Chosera/Professional setup where I should go?



*Status/History:*
Serious home cook.
I have been cooking for ~4.5 years.
I have been sharpening for ~3 years.
I understand raising a burr, then removing it.
I cook more than average homecook (hardcore?), but far from the hours of prep of an actual pro.



*Current setup:*
(From coarse to fine)

1. Chan Chi Kee combo stone. The "fine" side is my "coarse" stone.
2. Taidea 3000 http://www.amazon.com/Annengjin®-Professional-

Sharpening-Single-Side-Whetstone/dp/B00QEYUGRI/
3. Taidea 5000
For reference, my research has told me that the Taidea stones cut a bit

better than the King stones.
4. Idahone ceramic hone (1200 grit)




*Knives:*
Tojiro DP
VG-10, HRC 60
http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/tojiro-dp-f-8081.html

Yoshikane (Western handle)
SKD(-11?) core, HRC 64
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=88173

Richmond Artifex
AEB-L, HRC 61
http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/riar21.html

Shun Kaji Cleaver
SG-2, HRC 64
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products ... ver-knife/




*My issues/status with sharpening:*

VG-10 knives, adequately.
Sharp enough to go through meat and veg pretty adequately.
Well enough that I'm not unhappy.

SKD-11, very well.
Effortless through meat and veg.

SG-2, not a passing grade.
Sharper than poor. Less sharp than adequate.
Still cuts, but requires a touch of pressure.

AEB-L, FAIL.
I cannot seem to sharpen this.
Requires too much pressure for the initial "bite".
Cuts decently well with hint of pressure.



*Overall,*
Everything is sharp-ish, but nothing I touch is anywhere near the factory edge from Shun Premier, Kaji and Miyabi Mizu knives (VG-MAX and SG-2).
I know that lack of skill/technique is definitely a factor.
However, I suspect it is mostly that my cheap stones are also not cutting well enough for HRC 61+?



*Anomaly:*
Either my skills are lacking, or my stones are not good enough,
Regardless, how is it that after 3 years of serious use,
I am somehow able to keep a higher HRC Yoshikane SKD-11 steel sharper than my lower HRC VG-10 and AEB-L knives?



*Looking to the future:*
Essentially, I'm heading towards a hard laser,
Tanaka Ironwood or Itou R2, HRC 62+
or
Miyabi 600 MCD ZDP-189, HRC 65/66
I understand these will be more brittle, When it comes to scraping bone, I'll buy a cheap petty or use my CCK cleaver.



*Feedback?*
- Naniwa Aotoshi (Green Brick of Joy) will do me well for VG-10, but won't serve me well for harder steels?
- I am ok with soaking or splash-and-go, no preference.
- I am looking towards building an end-game setup, I'm hoping to have stones that will serve me for a very long time.
- Should I be looking at building at complete Naniwa Professional set?
- I have also heard that Kitayama and Gesshin stones are also viable "end-game" stones.
- What's the longevity of a Shapton Pro vs Naniwa Pro?


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## Culverin (May 23, 2015)

Somebody on another forum mentioned that it's more likely my lack of skill.
Rather than the Taidea not working as well as I want?

If it's skills rather than stones,
How does that account for me keeping the Yoshikane quite sharp (for a newb),
While the rest seem to fall short of that?

Is there something that SKD-11 steel likes that I'm doing, that isn't working for the other knives?


And yes, I'm aware the Artifex is THICK behind the edge.
With zero pressure, barely grazing tomato skin, It lacks the bite to puncture the skin.
Something all my other knives (including my global) can do.


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## Timthebeaver (May 23, 2015)

I'm going to suggest it's nothing to do with HRC whatsoever. Essentially meaningless in this context, you would do well to stop worrying about it.

Keep your stones, work on your technique. If you can sharpen one steel, ,you can sharpen another. Don't get hung up on steel type.

The stock geometry of (at least the early) AEB-L Artifex gyutos was nothing short of abysmal - maybe the reason you need to use more pressure. A sharp edge and a good cutter are two very different things.

My go-to knife is a Yoshikane migaki in SKD-12. The steel is very forgiving imo, plus the geometry is awesome - a great cutter even when it's nowhere near peak sharpness.


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## daveb (May 23, 2015)

From your list of knives I would have thought the Yoshikane would be the easiest to get sharp, and very sharp. SKD is a good core steel and Yoshikane does very well with it. Buy more.

Also would have thought the Artyflex would be the most difficult. It has a reputation for being "fat" and requiring a lot of thinning before being useful. Classic "sharp knife that doesn't cut well". AEBL is said to not do well as a mass production steel and you can bet that these knives were made by the low bidder.

Shun, by design is abrasion resistant for the homeowner that does not sharpen. (That would include almost all of them.) Abrasion resistant and easy to sharpen are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Not surprised it has it's challenges. 

The Torheehoo? - Comments abound about this knife. It has it's fans. I'm not one of them. Seems like I read somewhere (on the internet no less) that DP was added to the design sheet to mean "Don't Produce". 

I would have different stones but from your post it looks to me like a combination of knives (and probably technique) that's causing you difficulties. You could do worse than adding a known quality laser to your knife set, (Gesshin Ginga) watch some of the sharpening videos from JKI and only then think about upgrading stones.


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## Sabaki (May 23, 2015)

It's a bummer Artifex dont make those AEB-L knives closer to it's full potential, i've sharpen numerus superthin AEB-L knives at 62-62.5hrc with ease with only a few strokes. I also have one exampel of that "Taidea #5000 and it produces a very good edge with ease, it wear's pretty fast and doesent hold water so i use it under running water often holding it in my hand and continuously remove the black dashes of steel that otherwise will form lumps on the stone preventing the stone to do it's job.

Sharpening many knives means a lot of practise and doing this the right way every time saves a lot of time, i rearly use more than 1 or 2 minutes to get the edge i want "with a bite" razor sharp using one of my finishing stones, deburr and strop on balsa wood.
Maintaning your knives between sharpening is much more timeconsuming, thinning and maybe restore surface of the blade.

Look closely at the edge you get the best result on and compare this edge with the one you get the worst result and see if you can notice the difference.
Either you make your worst knife similar behind the edge or adjust your sharpening technique otherwise:scratchhead:


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## Culverin (May 25, 2015)

Timthebeaver said:


> I'm going to suggest it's nothing to do with HRC whatsoever. Essentially meaningless in this context, you would do well to stop worrying about it.
> 
> Keep your stones, work on your technique. If you can sharpen one steel, ,you can sharpen another. Don't get hung up on steel type.
> 
> ...




Yeah, the Artifex is really thick behind the edge.
I was told to try to thin it out and I think I've done that (sort of).

The results seem to be, 
Decent cutter, but not a very sharp edge.
Like I can cut through things very easily, but the initial penetration (ability to break through the skin of a tomatoes and peppers) is much lower than my other knives.


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## Culverin (May 25, 2015)

daveb said:


> From your list of knives I would have thought the Yoshikane would be the easiest to get sharp, and very sharp. SKD is a good core steel and Yoshikane does very well with it. Buy more.
> 
> Also would have thought the Artyflex would be the most difficult. It has a reputation for being "fat" and requiring a lot of thinning before being useful. Classic "sharp knife that doesn't cut well". AEBL is said to not do well as a mass production steel and you can bet that these knives were made by the low bidder.
> 
> ...




The Shun VG-10 steels seem to sharpen as well as my Tojiro.
But never back to the performance of it's factory edge.
Which is clearly a sign my skills are lacking.
I totally agree with you that the SG-2 knives are giving me trouble. I have a lot of "foodie" friends and nobody else sharpens their knives. 
Us knife nuts must make up a pretty small segment of the population 


The Yoshikane is a beast of a knife, in every sense of the word.
It is scary sharp. It's my biggest knife, and heaviest by far. In the 3+ years I've had owned it, never had an issue with keeping it razor sharp.
It has always been the sharpest knife in my kit.
I would definitely buy more, except I think my style has changed?
It was my first serious knife coming from a Chinese family where the jack-of-all-trades cleaver was the best knife in the home.

I'm liking something shorter, lighter and thinner.
The Tojiro is actually my go-to knife right now. I really like the thin-ness, the length and smaller (but rectangular) handle.
Even if it's not as sharp as a Shun VG-10 factory edge, it's my scalpel. It's nimble and and agile, feels good in my tiny hands.


Thank you very much for your feedback.
Looks like my skills need some serious upgrade.


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## Culverin (May 25, 2015)

Sabaki said:


> It's a bummer Artifex dont make those AEB-L knives closer to it's full potential, i've sharpen numerus superthin AEB-L knives at 62-62.5hrc with ease with only a few strokes. I also have one exampel of that "Taidea #5000 and it produces a very good edge with ease, it wear's pretty fast and doesent hold water so i use it under running water often holding it in my hand and continuously remove the black dashes of steel that otherwise will form lumps on the stone preventing the stone to do it's job.
> 
> Sharpening many knives means a lot of practise and doing this the right way every time saves a lot of time, i rearly use more than 1 or 2 minutes to get the edge i want "with a bite" razor sharp using one of my finishing stones, deburr and strop on balsa wood.
> Maintaning your knives between sharpening is much more timeconsuming, thinning and maybe restore surface of the blade.
> ...



Ok. Sounds like the Taidea 5k isn't the problem.

thanks!


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## chinacats (May 25, 2015)

My guess is that the stainless knives may be giving you a problem with burr removal. This would lead to sharp but can't cut...stick with it.


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## Culverin (May 25, 2015)

Go slower, check for burr formation on entire length of blade?


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## daveb (May 25, 2015)

If CCats is right - and except for his predilection for carbon he frequently is ( :angel2: ) - the JKI Burr Removal video maybe useful for you. https://youtu.be/XnhIKOX6Rco?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB

Recommend the whole series as the best available on the web.


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## Lizzardborn (May 25, 2015)

chinacats said:


> My guess is that the stainless knives may be giving you a problem with burr removal. This would lead to sharp but can't cut...stick with it.



Recently I tried the cliff stamp burless sharpening while using Jon's motions on the stone for stainless. The results are surprisingly good and consistent (for my skill level).


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## echerub (May 25, 2015)

Clear formation of a burr and clean removal are very important. Otherwise you'll get, like I had at various stages when first learning, nice-looking-but-not-sharp edges or wire edges that crumble after minimal use leaving a dull edge.

I agree that some steels are easier to bring to a nice edge than others, but the technique remains the same. Most of us here have our favorite stones, but likewise stones are not going to be the deciding factor. I was thinking that it's *possible* that the Taidea 5k is giving you too smooth an edge, one that is sharp but without the microscopic teeth to let the edge "bite" into something like tomato or pepper skin. But at 5k, I don't *think* that's going to be the issue.

Like the others, I think it's a technique thing. 

One suggestion that I would make is to look into getting a nice coarse stone. That's where the foundation is made for nice edges, and getting one that works well and quickly makes it easier to get that good initial base and then reduces the amount of time where you can mess up your good work. The Beston 500 is economical and works really well for most knives (there are some steels that are idiosyncratic and do better on something else) and the Gesshin 400 (takes care of anything that the Beston doesn't fare so well with) are two that I have had good experience with. But go slowly at first with coarse stones - rushing things means getting into trouble quickly.

As an aside... I happen to love Yoshikane's SKD gyutos and good chinese cleavers. Keep exploring, keep learning, keep having fun (and good food along the way)!


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## _PixelNinja (May 25, 2015)

echerub said:


> I was thinking that it's *possible* that the Taidea 5k is giving you too smooth an edge, one that is sharp but without the microscopic teeth to let the edge "bite" into something like tomato or pepper skin. But at 5k, I don't *think* that's going to be the issue.


I am not saying it is the case here, but in my experience is indeed possible to have an overly smooth edge with certain 5k stones. I used to run into this problem with my 5k Naniwa Superstone.


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## Kippington (May 25, 2015)

_PixelNinja said:


> I am not saying it is the case here, but in my experience is indeed possible to have an overly smooth edge with certain 5k stones. I used to run into this problem with my 5k Naniwa Superstone.



Hah I remember coming across this issue when I was a few years into sharpening too.

Culverin, I suggest you try this test and check if you are having the same problem:
- Sharpen the Richmond Artifex with the coarsest stone you have.
- Use the same stone to remove the burr.
- Without progressing to your next stone, test your current edge by slicing a tomato.

This test will indicate whether your skills are the problem or you simply aren't happy with how your knives are behaving when you progress up to the higher grits. Higher polishing grits will 'clean up' the rough micro-serrations along the edge of the knife which can give the feeling that the knife is getting blunter. There are some ways around this, but first you should do the test above because if you can't get through a tomato easily after the coarse stone then your sharpening skills need improving.


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## James (May 26, 2015)

Thin the artifex behind the edge...really thin it out a lot. IIRC, it's very thick behind the edge and needs a bit of work getting it into shape. After you put the work into optimizing the geometry a bit, they're very decent cutters.


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