# Shigefusa vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara



## Lazarus (Aug 29, 2016)

Have a friend in Japan hunting knives for me, if you had to choose between a Shig or Kato, which would you pick and why? Will regardless get a large Gyuto in both if he can find them.


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## chinacats (Aug 29, 2016)

Never heard of Shigekawa, the Shig people refer to here is Shigefusa...of the 2, I would pick Shigefusa.


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## Lazarus (Aug 29, 2016)

crap I meant Shigefusa I was looking at something else and blended 2 words. And why can't I edit the first post to fix ugh.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 29, 2016)

One more vote to Shigefusa. Find Kato's edge too fragile and the knife too heavy (the nakiri is another story, though).


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## preizzo (Aug 29, 2016)

Kato for my taste, but shigefusa are good anyway. It s like when you compare a Lamborghini and a Ferrari. 
In this case the Lamborghini are the Katos and the Ferrari are the shigefusa.... It s just a matter. Taste imo


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## Cheeks1989 (Aug 29, 2016)

I find them both overrated.


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## gic (Aug 29, 2016)

I'm curious where one would routinely get a shig or a kato in Japan, aren't they just as hard to get there?


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## lumo (Aug 29, 2016)

Just made dinner last week and compared both with the mindset that I would/want to sell one or the other, or both. 
Kato beat the Shig, but keep in mind I generally prefer a heavier knife, feels great in hand, alive and goes through food easily. Definitely edge fragile before tweaking but so was my shig, especially my shig nakiri for whatever reason.
Shigefusa single bevel slicers are a different story though, won't be selling those!
1965 Ferrari GT &#10084;&#65039;
my 2¢


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## DamageInc (Aug 29, 2016)

I've never owned a Shigefusa, but I have tried them several times. I would say Kato, but either way you are getting a very good product.


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## spoiledbroth (Aug 29, 2016)

Cheeks1989 said:


> I find them both overrated.



shots fired. in before the flame war


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## mikedtran (Aug 29, 2016)

I personally like:

Cutting Performance (Double Bevel) - Original Kato > Shigefusa > Workhorse Kato
Finish - Shigefusa > Kato

If I'm looking for a double bevel that isn't flashy would go for the Original Kato. If I'm looking for a damascus, absolutely love the Kitaeji work. Single bevel Shigefusas feel really special though I don't have any Kato single bevels to compare against.


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## YG420 (Aug 29, 2016)

My votes for kato. The double beveled shigs Ive had felt "sterile" or "muted" if that makes any sense. Kato on the other hand is just plain fun to use.


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## Ruso (Aug 29, 2016)

Never tried Kato (hopefully will change). Not planning on getting another Shig. Nothing too special for the *price* performance wise.


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## easy13 (Aug 29, 2016)

Find Shigefusa overrated, though I dont mind the KU stuff at that pricepoint, or at least when it was in the lower 200 range. Find the current hype on both right now insane when there are plenty of other amazing knives out there to try. If I had to pick one it would be Kato, has more character in its weight and grind, Shigs pretty Vanilla in that category.


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## alterwisser (Aug 29, 2016)

Cheeks1989 said:


> I find them both overrated.



You are a brave man! +1


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## Matus (Aug 30, 2016)

Well, both Shigefusa and Kato have gained a collector status in the western world and prices went up quite a bit on them over the past few years. Without a question these are well made knives, but I do agree, that you can get the performance for less from less known makers. Today I would consider buying a Shigefusa or Kato (in particular if the price is right) as an investment as they will probably keep on appreciating.


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## Micioarch (Aug 30, 2016)

Can I have a list here or in pm of the less known makers. I'm really curious about the option comparable to Shig and Kato.


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## Matus (Aug 30, 2016)

Toyama, Watanabe, Ikeda (they make knives for many vendors, there is a lengthy thread on Ikeda that is not too old somewhere on KKF), Kochi (from JKI), Munetoshi, Yoshikane, Ittetsu, Hide, Kagekiyo, Ginga, etc.

Please note - all of the above have different grind, profiles & HT, none of them is direct 'replacement' for a Shigefusa or Kato. Just a few (of many) makers that are definitely worth their price. I am sure others will expand that list.


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## YG420 (Aug 30, 2016)

+1 for the toyama and kochi, would also like to add konosuke fujiyama white 1


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## bennyprofane (Aug 30, 2016)

+1 for the Toyama

But as I understand the geometry of the Kato is quite unique and makes it so sought-after?


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## NO ChoP! (Aug 30, 2016)

So over soft iron cladding.


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 30, 2016)

YG420 said:


> +1 for the toyama and kochi, would also like to add konosuke fujiyama white 1



+1 for the Konosuke Fuijayama White #1 and I have Shig and Kato gyutos too.


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## daveb (Aug 30, 2016)

Shig and Kato enjoy great popularity here and between Maxim and the alert threads, I'm not sure you'll find a better place to connect with one if that is your pleasure. Many other makers also enjoy good reputations here.

It's purley conjecture on my part but I would guess that for every maker that is in vogue here, there are at least 100 that we've never heard of. If I was going to Japan those are the ones I would look for.


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## supersayan3 (Aug 31, 2016)

Fujiwara White 1, can be compared with Shigefusa and Kato, or is very rustik?
Never have touched any of the 3, but The extra hard white 1 idea, excites me


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## Godslayer (Aug 31, 2016)

Fujiwara terayusa can take on fujiwara yoshiaki, his ht is probably the best I've ever seen on any steel. It feels like diamonds on stones. Pure hardness. On to the topic I don't own a shigefusa, I like my kato petty but not as much as my takamura petty.


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## Iggy (Sep 1, 2016)

Hi,

I have two Katos and have/had 2 Shigefusas (Kato Gyuto/Nakiri... Shig only single bevel) and I like them both.

But, can't agree more to that:



Godslayer said:


> Fujiwara terayusa can take on fujiwara yoshiaki,...



My Teruyasu Fujiwara Denka is probably the best performing J-knive I've ever tested (been a lot over the years..). The heat treat and grind of my Denka 210 Gyuto is simply stellar. 
It's one of my most used Gyutos, as is the Kato Workhorse and I like them both (especially the Kato profile and grind). But in terms of edge retention and cutting performance my Denka is way ahead. 

But... (and unfortunately there is a "but")...

These are quite rustic knives (F&F is very rustic) and the deviations between two knives of the same category can be quite high. Visited his store last year in fall and had the oppurtunity to choose my Denka from several blades. If you order a TF, especially if from a retailer, then I guess it's quite a question of "luck" what you get...













Or you should at least talk to the retailer of your trust before ordering that he/she chooses a good knife for you.

Maboroshi is also quite good. Same issues and analog really good HT and sharpability.


Regards, Iggy


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## F-Flash (Sep 1, 2016)

Had kikuryu Kato And kasumi Shig, like my toyama most of the bunch, that's why I still have it and sold Kato and Shig. All were 240mm.


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## preizzo (Sep 1, 2016)

I am using your shigefusa in the last few days and it s a great performer 
&#128522;&#128540;


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## supersayan3 (Sep 2, 2016)

Out of curiosity, how reactive is the clad of these two knives, compared to their core?
And if the cladding happesn to be more reactive than the core, how does that affect on foods and which foods?

Thank you Iggy!


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 2, 2016)

Shig, Toyoma, Kato. In that order, are extremely reactive. Their joyful knives to cut with and yea clad does oxidize fast. I used to be appalled by the HM factor of knives that oxidize upon use. After I focused on wiping and drying after each use, dry, dry... I'm able to restore the finish that's patina free with some Flitz and a wipe down.


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## preizzo (Sep 2, 2016)

My shigefusa it s not reactive at all. 
I had three katos workhorse and the two I sold where more reactive, but not such a big problem


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## Iggy (Sep 3, 2016)

supersayan3 said:


> Out of curiosity, how reactive is the clad of these two knives, compared to their core?
> And if the cladding happesn to be more reactive than the core, how does that affect on foods and which foods?
> 
> Thank you Iggy!



The TF are stainless clad, so no reactivity issues there. Here's a quite new (about 1-2 month old) photo of my Denka. Of course the core has got some patina but I quite like the contrast with the stainless.





Kato I find quite reactive of course, but not too bad. On a similar level then my (old) Sakai Takayuki Syousin Sakura 
If you're really looking for a stable patina with nearly no further reactivity, I think I'd prefer Monosteel or stainless clad to soft iron 
:2cents:


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## Saya (Sep 4, 2016)

I have to agree. The shig and kato gyutos are both great, and top quality for sure. The 'feeling' of knives are perhaps a very personal thing, and different for each person.

But my Teruyasu Fujiw. makes me smile every time i pick it up. It has presence, has a simple, quiet authority that inspires confidence in a way that the others do not do for me.
I would pick it over shig and kato if I had to choose one, without even hesitating. Others have mentioned the ease and effectiveness of sharpening. 

I have the cheaper line, and may try Maboroshi or Denka later on


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## Canadian (Sep 4, 2016)

A Shigefusa is a hand-forged knife by a highly esteemed master artisan (who is quite old) crafted in a traditional manner with an impeccable grind, profile and hand finish. To compare it to a mass-produced stamped knife and argue that it is overrated & overpriced is kind of missing the point. There are cheaper knives that will cut as well and maybe even better (Suisin Inox, Konosuke HD, Etc.), but they will never be a Shigefusa. Although knives are primarily meant for cutting, there are other considerations (profile, grind, distal taper, balance, steel/heat treat, application...personal sentiment). With that said, there are some less expensive stamped knives that meet all of the above considerations (Masamoto KS, for example), and so if you are not hung up on the whole 'hand-forged-author' aspect of the knife, then yeah, you don't need to spend that kind of money to get that level of performance. My Misono Swedish gyuto cuts just as well as my Shig gyuto. Still doesn't make it a Shig.


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## Godslayer (Sep 4, 2016)

I like my maboroshi more than thé denka


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## XKFC (Sep 6, 2016)

I would pick Shigefusa, I have a cleaver from them, really nice knife


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## aboynamedsuita (Sep 6, 2016)

Pics or it didn't happen irate1:


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## ynot1985 (Sep 6, 2016)

XKFC said:


> I would pick Shigefusa, I have a cleaver from them, really nice knife




yeah pics please.. not unicorn but as rare as a hen's teeth


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## brainsausage (Sep 7, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Shig, Toyoma, Kato. In that order, are extremely reactive. Their joyful knives to cut with and yea clad does oxidize fast. I used to be appalled by the HM factor of knives that oxidize upon use. After I focused on wiping and drying after each use, dry, dry... I'm able to restore the finish that's patina free with some Flitz and a wipe down.



Heh, that's funny- I had quite the opposite experience with that run of knives, interesting. And I should probably just stop harping on how the reactivity of all of these knives is based on improper 'priming'/lack of actual use. But whatever:newhere: 

On a whole other topic- I took a few weeks off from the forum, and when I climb back on- everyone is still debating about Shig vs Kato? These knives are firmly in the collector market now it appears. Lots of hype. Lots of expensive hunks of steel not being put to proper use. It's sad to see these incredible craftsman producing truly outstanding tools that will never be actually used, and just passed among collectors at this point. And unlike the guys producing swords- these things are actually meant to be put to work. Yeah- I know, the sword craft isn't quite that black and white, but as a tool it's more intended as a possibility, not an everyday item(hopefully). Oh well. Glad I grabbed the tools I wanted when I did.


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## brainsausage (Sep 8, 2016)

I'm addicted to clickbait now btw.


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## panda (Sep 8, 2016)

i want to see somebody get a custom heiji, and then send it off to dave or jon for spa treatment.


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## JBroida (Sep 8, 2016)

It happens


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## Saya (Sep 8, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> And I should probably just stop harping on how the reactivity of all of these knives is based on improper 'priming'/lack of actual use.



can you elaborate on 'priming'?


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## ecrphoto (May 19, 2017)

Iggy said:


> The TF are stainless clad, so no reactivity issues there. Here's a quite new (about 1-2 month old) photo of my Denka. Of course the core has got some patina but I quite like the contrast with the stainless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How did you find the performance compared on your Kato and your Sakai Takayuki Syousin Sakura?


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## jacko9 (May 19, 2017)

I haven't had the pleasure of owning a Shigefusa but, I do have a 210mm Kato Workhorse that I love and use almost exclusively. If I can find either brand in a 240mm Gyuto I'll buy one or both.


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## Iggy (May 19, 2017)

ecrphoto said:


> How did you find the performance compared on your Kato and your Sakai Takayuki Syousin Sakura?



You mean Denka vs. Kato vs. Syousin Sakura?

Difficult, because they're kind of different knives... especially the Kato has more the classic Workhorse geometry. 
In total I'd say the performance of the Denka is best regarding easy of cutting, food release and edge retention. Kato second (but I'm not so sure regarding edge retention on the Sakura compared to the Kato).

But unfortunataly, a lot of the TF knives have a big variations regarding grind and geometry. I had the luck to handpick my Denka at his store from a batch of 5-6 Gyutos. 

Regards, Iggy


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## preizzo (May 19, 2017)

Best Denka I ever see it s the one of inzite. That knife it s just crazy good, could easily bit all my Katos Shigefusas and Moboroshis I have... &#128522;


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## fatboylim (May 19, 2017)

preizzo said:


> Best Denka I ever see it s the one of inzite. That knife it s just crazy good, could easily bit all my Katos Shigefusas and Moboroshis I have... &#128522;



Quite true, but most of us don't hit the lottery on a great Teruyasu Fujiwara. Best to handle one before buying, unless there is an experienced BST seller who can guide you on good and bad issues with their Teruyasu Fujiwara.


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## dwalker (May 19, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Quite true, but most of us don't hit the lottery on a great Teruyasu Fujiwara. Best to handle one before buying, unless there is an experienced BST seller who can guide you on good and bad issues with their Teruyasu Fujiwara.



Quite true. I have a 240 plain old Nashiji white1 that is an overachiever. I have moved on from a couple that were not.


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## inzite (May 19, 2017)

Iggy said:


> You mean Denka vs. Kato vs. Syousin Sakura?
> 
> Difficult, because they're kind of different knives... especially the Kato has more the classic Workhorse geometry.
> In total I'd say the performance of the Denka is best regarding easy of cutting, food release and edge retention. Kato second (but I'm not so sure regarding edge retention on the Sakura compared to the Kato).
> ...



i agree on the denka vs kato comparison hehe, i also had the chance to hand pick mine amongst 8 other ones, got the thinnest one with the best finish.


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## inzite (May 19, 2017)

preizzo said:


> Best Denka I ever see it s the one of inzite. That knife it s just crazy good, could easily bit all my Katos Shigefusas and Moboroshis I have... &#128522;



it is a beast! heavier than my hiromoto 270 honyaki and heavier than my ku kato but overall thinner spine and very thin near edge as well. haha. Best buy of 2017 from price and performance perspective.


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## Iggy (May 20, 2017)

inzite said:


> i agree on the denka vs kato comparison hehe, i also had the chance to hand pick mine amongst 8 other ones, got the thinnest one with the best finish.



IMHO the best and only way to buy your Denka. So quite expensive knife. With flight to Tokyo and so on


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## fatboylim (May 20, 2017)

inzite said:


> i agree on the denka vs kato comparison hehe, i also had the chance to hand pick mine amongst 8 other ones, got the thinnest one with the best finish.



Was that a 210 gyuto Inzite that you bought with the cleaver?


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## inzite (May 20, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Was that a 210 gyuto Inzite that you bought with the cleaver?



240 , the 210 are pretty thin as well, 270 gets beefy since as per TF's shop, gyuto in their minds are for fabricating meat so thickness and thinness is not just their consideration.


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## inzite (May 20, 2017)

Iggy said:


> IMHO the best and only way to buy your Denka. So quite expensive knife. With flight to Tokyo and so on



that's why i suggest buying more than one on a trip hahaha


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## fatboylim (May 20, 2017)

inzite said:


> 240 , the 210 are pretty thin as well, 270 gets beefy since as per TF's shop, gyuto in their minds are for fabricating meat so thickness and thinness is not just their consideration.



Very nice. I must say, I still think of that DENKA cleaver!


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## inzite (May 20, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Very nice. I must say, I still think of that DENKA cleaver!



lol that one was pure fate. I tried to buy a 195 TF nakiri in blue 1 (iron cladded) - and apparently it exist - off tsubaya in person but it was sold out by the time i got there in to their store so I was pretty disappointed. But the next day the cleaver was the first thing I saw when I entered TF's store hehe and it is exactly what I wanted - mini cleaver but still good height and profile. Felt I just had to pick up a 240 denka too from Iggy's previous posts.


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## Anton (May 20, 2017)

inzite said:


> lol that one was pure fate. I tried to buy a 195 TF nakiri in blue 1 (iron cladded) - and apparently it exist - off tsubaya in person but it was sold out by the time i got there in to their store so I was pretty disappointed. But the next day the cleaver was the first thing I saw when I entered TF's store hehe and it is exactly what I wanted - mini cleaver but still good height and profile. Felt I just had to pick up a 240 denka too from Iggy's previous posts.



can you post the dimensions, thickenss, etc of that mini cleaver?


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## inzite (May 20, 2017)

Anton said:


> can you post the dimensions, thickenss, etc of that mini cleaver?



dimensions are 175mm x 81mm. Havent really measured thickness since I only have a measuring tape at home. It tapers to pretty thin behind the edge and spine thickness is comparable to my 240 denka. And did I mention that these denkas are pretty sharp ootb? lol.. I can only imagine how sharp I can get them...

edited...
3mm exiting bolster to 2mm at tip spine side then tapers to a very thin edge. 

I have pics on instagram under same user name.


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## fatboylim (May 20, 2017)

inzite said:


> lol that one was pure fate. I tried to buy a 195 TF nakiri in blue 1 (iron cladded) - and apparently it exist - off tsubaya in person but it was sold out by the time i got there in to their store so I was pretty disappointed. But the next day the cleaver was the first thing I saw when I entered TF's store hehe and it is exactly what I wanted - mini cleaver but still good height and profile. Felt I just had to pick up a 240 denka too from Iggy's previous posts.



I am totally with you on blue steel, it has the toughness for bigger knives. I'd love to do a comparison between your denka cleaver and the Toyama 210 Nakiri B#2 (210 x 65 mm) which is closer to a Chinese vegetable cleaver (195mm x 70mm similar to the CCK 1915). As mentioned in another post, the denka is closer to the Henkel vegetable cleaver at 180x80; one of my favourite sizes but with a below average steel.


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## inzite (May 21, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> I am totally with you on blue steel, it has the toughness for bigger knives. I'd love to do a comparison between your denka cleaver and the Toyama 210 Nakiri B#2 (210 x 65 mm) which is closer to a Chinese vegetable cleaver (195mm x 70mm similar to the CCK 1915). As mentioned in another post, the denka is closer to the Henkel vegetable cleaver at 180x80; one of my favourite sizes but with a below average steel.



i grew up on my moms henkel cleavers so this denka feels just at home!  I think it is the best size for home use!


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## Silky (May 21, 2017)

inzite said:


> 240 , the 210 are pretty thin as well, 270 gets beefy since as per TF's shop, gyuto in their minds are for fabricating meat so thickness and thinness is not just their consideration.



Were all of the 270 gyuto thick? I'm trying to decide between the 240 and 270.


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## inzite (May 21, 2017)

Silky said:


> Were all of the 270 gyuto thick? I'm trying to decide between the 240 and 270.



yes, all were beefy.


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