# My failed kasumi finish attempt



## Matus (Mar 31, 2016)

OK, this was originally not meant to yield a uniform kasumi finish, rather just a quick natural stone comparison, but since the results look even worse than I expected I though I would make sense to share and ask for some advice.

_Note: I have processed the photos (higher contrast) so that the finish is easier to see._

Thanks to a kind KKF member I have currently 4 natural stones to test - my Hakka and Hideriyama and the borrowed Takashima and Aoto. Here are the stones:





*From left to right:*
Takashima - this one is from fine-tools and it is not a tomae and the effective grit is about 1k - 2k.
Hakka - this is my 'composite stone' - glued together from 2 small Hakka stones from Maxim (I kept them the same side up)
Aoto - this was done in the same manner - also stones from Maxim
Hideriyama - beautiful stone from Maxim

I have also used in the process JNS 300 and Gesshin synthetic natural stone (reasons see below)

The knife I have used for the testing is Kato 80 mm kasumi petty. It looked like this before I started:





Before I would start with natural stones I have decided to give the Gesshin synthetic natural (SN) a try - I know that it was not developed for this kind of application (and I bought it to get a nice edge with just the right amount of bite - a tasks it suits perfectly), but I was just curios what would the outcome be:

*After Gesshin SN:*





Not great and not uniform (that is on me), but since there were original scratch marks still visible I decided to take the stone to JNS 300 (Gesshin 400 would have been a better choice here, but it is already pre-prepared for the pass-around). 

From now on I have always altered the angle between 90 and 45 degrees relative to edge to get and idea on the scratch pattern and its origin.

*After JNS 300:*





Not perfect, but I did not want to spend too much time on a stone this coarse and most of the blade looked good so I moved on. So now it was back to Gesshin SN - mainly because it is way faster than any of the natural stones in question, so I hoped to remove most of the scratches the JNS 300 left. Of course - this a way to large of a step, but since my Gesshin 2000 is also already packed I decided to give it a try.

*After Gesshin SN:*





Hm, not much better than before JNS 300. It can be clearly seen that the cladding seems to get harder towards the tip - even at close inspection the scratch pattern on the cladding and core steel looked very similar. This pretty much remained the same with the subsequent steps.

*Let's move to Takashima:*





Relatively strong scratch pattern, consistent with what my impression was (and also the owner of the stone).

*Aoto* (I have used nagura to create some mud):





Much smoother, but still visible scratch pattern. 

*Hakka* (muddy without nagura):





Looks similar to result from Aoto. Here you can clearly see that I was not able to put a homogenous result, even though I tried my best with lots of nice mud.

*Hideriyama* (no photo, sorry):
This stone just polished more the existing mess and only brought out all the forgotten scratches, the contrast between cladding and core steel actually decreased as the cladding got more polished.

*Summary*:
I have apparently failed to get anywhere close to decent result. I am wondering what are the most obvious mistakes here?. Apparently hard no-mud-ever stone like JNS 300 is not ideal here, nor is a direct follow-up with 3-5k stone (Gesshin SN) - that would explain why some deeper scratches would not get removed, but other than that ... ?

On all 4 natural stones (Takashima not quite as much) I got a 'sticking' problem - the blade would feel like it is getting stuck (suction) to the surface of the stone what surely did not improve the final result. I suppose the suction is normal - when I used nagura on Aoto, Hakka and Hideriyama it would get stuck at times - especially on the Hakka - as there is natural suction effect taking place as the water dissipates into the stone.

I would really like to improve on this and would much appreciate your input.

thanks


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## mikedtran (Mar 31, 2016)

Hoping Asteger will jump in on his. I bought a 180mm Kato Petty from him and it had a very nice Kasumi finish he put on it. 

Side note - one thing I notice over and over and love about Katos is the low tip!


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## F-Flash (Mar 31, 2016)

I got nice kasumi finish on some carbon knives with polishing blade up to 2k with wet and dry sand paper, then using uchigumori fingerstones, and lastly going back to 800 grit sand paper. Unfortunately I don't have pics of the result. Will take some next time I do it.


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## Asteger (Mar 31, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Hoping Asteger will jump in on his. I bought a 180mm Kato Petty from him and it had a very nice Kasumi finish he put on it.



Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I converted a few Kato I owned because I don't think the usual standard or Workhorse finish is special. It's just those machined polishing lines from spine down to edge, so no big deal if that's lost.

What I did was nothing special, but I would have done it over time. Aside from sharpening/normal thinning maintenance, I'd just polish from heel to tip in the 'Sanjo' way when in the mood, and I don't even use fingerstones. Maybe some coarse sandpaper for heavy (thinning scratches) but, basically, I'd use some usually worn out (almost grit-free) sandpaper just rubbing/polishing with my finger and using slurry, from whichever stones were around at the time. The slurry would do the work. Would use naturals, yes.

One picture here, but sorry as the light doesn't really show all the detail:







Matus, looks like you were applying the entire blade to your stones. Not sure of the contours on the blade you have, but it's inevitable that it'll end up with different textures and the blade can't be uniform Good observation about the harder cladding near the edge, too. You can see it.

I've only put the full blade to stones when doing a heavy thin-type job on a knife with those clear shinogi, where the blade is pretty flat from shinogi to spine, like Kagekiyo or Konosuke, etc, and it'd probably work with many single-bevels, though not necessary with them.

You need to use sandpaper or slurry and sandpaper or a cork, etc, above the bevel area I think.


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## mikedtran (Mar 31, 2016)

Has anyone found that cork streaks or scratches the blade? Might just have been my cork (it was a bit ripped apart)


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## Asteger (Mar 31, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Has anyone found that cork streaks or scratches the blade? Might just have been my cork (it was a bit ripped apart)



When I use it, no, but I don't use corks that often - usually with rubbing off bad patina or rust. Can't see any reason why clean cork should scratch metal.


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## Matus (Mar 31, 2016)

Asteger - thanks. I will try that. I though that it should be possible to do it just with stones & mud. I did not expect perfectly smooth finish, but what I got on the blade above would probably take ages to finish with fingerstones. My main input on how to do this was from Greg (from Wabocho) who refinished my Cater and single bevel honesuki using only stones (JNS stones up to 6k and then Takashima) and finally with finger stones made out of Takashima.

The finest paper I have at the moment is 400 - will that be good enough? It is made for wet sanding of metals (Matador).

The cork actually sounds like an interesting idea for final finishing.


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## cheflivengood (Mar 31, 2016)

are you using fresh water or the same water from your 300/synaoto?


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## JayGee (Mar 31, 2016)

It might be worth noting that the vertical finishing marks on Kato's knives are probably NOT from a machine grinder, but rather its a sword-making style for using a sen. As one vendor says: 'This knife is quite well made living well up to the high reputation. Details are refined in its own way, for example...,

1. The finishing Sen grind mark is running perpendicular (kiri) to the edge line which is quite unique for hand made/hand finished knives.

2. The neck being very tall, almost as tall as the handle itself.

3. Very handsome smith name and Kaou engraving which is only to be expected from a sword smith.'


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## Matus (Mar 31, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> are you using fresh water or the same water from your 300/synaoto?



I changed the water I used on the stones with every stone swap.

One more quesion. After reading that long kasumi thread (why did I not check it before remains a mystery) it is apparent that using a progression of sand paper and finish with some sort of fingerstones would work. But still - Maxim managed in this video to get a lovely finish with just stones and fingerstones - so it should be possible .. or?

[video=youtube;uzMFzDPfsws]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzMFzDPfsws[/video]


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## KimBronnum (Mar 31, 2016)

Matus, it can be done with just stones and fingerstones. You do, however, need the right stones and spend a lot of time with fingerstones. 
- Kim


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## cheflivengood (Mar 31, 2016)

Matus said:


> I changed the water I used on the stones with every stone swap.
> 
> One more quesion. After reading that long kasumi thread (why did I not check it before remains a mystery) it is apparent that using a progression of sand paper and finish with some sort of fingerstones would work. But still - Maxim managed in this video to get a lovely finish with just stones and fingerstones - so it should be possible .. or?
> 
> [video=youtube;uzMFzDPfsws]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzMFzDPfsws[/video]



You can tell the sides of your knife are not perfectly flat/smooth like the knife maxim is doing, but either way its the quality of his finger stones that makes what he did look really good. I would use my muddiest stone with light pressure to make the sides as even as possible, then using your highest grit stone, focus pressure from where the cladding meets the high carbon and down to the edge (i go with naniwa 10k super for a dramatic contrast). then you need a hard finger stone to focus on evening out the rest of the finish.


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## Jovidah (Mar 31, 2016)

I usually go with a Scratchsumi finish. Much easier!


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 31, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Has anyone found that cork streaks or scratches the blade? Might just have been my cork (it was a bit ripped apart)



Your problem is your cork, you need to use corks from Chateau Petrus....preferably older ones from1930 to 1970. Of course you have to drink all that yucky wine first lol.


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## jacko9 (Mar 31, 2016)

Smurfmacaw said:


> Your problem is your cork, you need to use corks from Chateau Petrus....preferably older ones from1930 to 1970. Of course you have to drink all that yucky wine first lol.



Actually since your so close by, my wife and I would relieve you of having to drink that terrible wine and give you the corks in pristine condition ;-)


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## Jovidah (Mar 31, 2016)

Quick, register japanesenaturalcork.com!


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## panda (Mar 31, 2016)

Jovidah said:


> I usually go with a Scratchsumi finish. Much easier!



Love it!


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## Matus (Apr 1, 2016)

thanks guys. I agree - it probably takes muddy stones and a lot of patience. I will probably give it one more try before turning to sandpaper. I agree and understand that sandpaper must speed up the process considerably, in my naive mind it somehow feel a bit like cheating  I know that that is the way many custom made monosteel knives (mostly non-kitchen stuff) are finished, but I somehow though that with clad knives it should not be 'that hard' to get it done with just stones. After all - Maxim makes it look all that easy ...


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## Badgertooth (Apr 1, 2016)

As Asteger has noted before - the geometry on the blade face of a Kato virtually precludes you from evenly abrading it against the flat surface of a large stone. Sandpaper with its smaller surface and the relatively soft backing of a finger or a sponge allows for even abrasion into the almost imperceptible contours of a blade face. Also don't discount the power of scouring pads and scrubbies. Then run over the top with finger stones. It's a game changer. I know because I nearly wore my fingers down to nubs over two days trying to hit all the lows on a red orca gyuto with stones. I surpassed two days of effort with an hour scrubbies and wet sandpaper and fingerstones. Horizontal strokes from heel to tip also make a huge difference.


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## Matus (Apr 1, 2016)

I will try that. Just ordered some finer sandpaper. I guess I will remove the handle to get the finish done up to the tang. I will report what will come out of it


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## mikedtran (Apr 1, 2016)

Matus said:


> I will try that. Just ordered some finer sandpaper. I guess I will remove the handle to get the finish done up to the tang. I will report what will come out of it



I just tape up my handle and work the sandpaper right up to it. Hits the emoto quite well.

As far as a setup for wet sanding, I have found that an extra magnetic knife rack clamped to a bench/kitchen counter is amazing!


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## Matus (Apr 1, 2016)

I actually have a setup for blade sanding - I made one (and will soon make another one) for sanding of freshly ground blades:

Obviously - clamping of the blade is simpler when there is no handle  Getting some cheap magnetic rack could be a solution for the future though.


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## Asteger (Apr 1, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> I just tape up my handle and work the sandpaper right up to it



Agreed, though I don't even go for any tape. 

I'd say don't bother with de-handling, unless one wants to be extra precious and super exact in the tang area. You can do a good job by the tang even with the handle there, I think, and I've never taken one off for that reason despite being happy to re-handle normally anyway.

Really, in my case with whatever I said above about how I normally do it, I don't think there's any real secret and I don't have any special gear, apart from more natural stones than your average bear. It's patience and some finesse and trial and error. I've read this said about Shigefusa, for eg, when being observed (though maybe with great technique emphasised instead of my trial and error). Not the sort of thing you want to feel you're committed to achieving in one go, or even one day, and I don't think it'll ever feel like it's perfect. But then that gives you an excuse to try again next time you have a moment. 

You could go really nuts with it and really try to replicate the makers and get beyond that 90% or 95% threshold and push things beyond there. But then of course, if you really use your knives then the results are soon lost very soon after. It's ephemeral.



JayGee said:


> It might be worth noting that the vertical finishing marks on Kato's knives are probably NOT from a machine grinder, but rather its a sword-making style for using a sen. As one vendor says:... 1. The finishing Sen grind mark is running perpendicular (kiri) to the edge line which is quite unique for hand made/hand finished knives.



Great point, yes, and I feel I've sold Kato short. Given the geometry of his blades I get it and how he would finish that way and I appreciate how it's done with sen. Being that as it may, I like it for being distinctive but also think it still not the greatest finish. When you thin (as you should) you just won't be able to maintain the pattern. Much easier to have a length-wise polish a la Sanjo.


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## XooMG (Apr 1, 2016)

Retracted irrelevant comment.


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## Matus (Apr 1, 2016)

Point(s) taken, thanks


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## Jovidah (Apr 1, 2016)

If all else fails... just rub it with a dead cat for a catsumi finish.


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## Matus (Apr 2, 2016)




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## JayGee (Apr 2, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Great point, yes, and I feel I've sold Kato short. Given the geometry of his blades I get it and how he would finish that way and I appreciate how it's done with sen. Being that as it may, I like it for being distinctive but also think it still not the greatest finish. When you thin (as you should) you just won't be able to maintain the pattern. Much easier to have a length-wise polish a la Sanjo.



Yeah - for sure.


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