# 4k-ish stone



## Kawa (Nov 14, 2021)

Hi,

So I'm about to 'give a hint for an x-mas present' and I've set my mind on a 4000-ish stone. 
Why?
let me start with, there is no need. Just to expand the hobby and fun.
The crappy side of the knives I sharpen, I finish at a shapton pro 2k, my own good stuff, I finish with a kitayama 8k.
Between those stones, I only have a Naniwa superstone 2k and 5k.

The shapton pro 2k is being called 'a true 2000 gritt' by some and 'it's a little closer to 3k' by some others. 
The superstones 2k and 5k refine the edge way higher (close to mirrow polish) than their gritt suggests, and the kitayama is also in the 8k range. (I yet have to test the superstone 5k and kitayama against eachother on my own knives. I think they are pretty close in gritt)

So I want to go for a stone in between: some kind of 4000 stone. I want to feel how the sharpness is around that gritt. I want to experience a little more surgical sharpeness then the pro2k gives me, but a little more teeth after a meal or two then the high polishers give me. For example, I have a knife in AUS-10 and it gets screaming sharp of the kitayama, but it looses that sharpness a little too soon. Aogami#2 and shirogami#2 hold the kitayamas edge fine (for what I want), but also in this case im curious in testing something in between the pro2k and kitayama.

I've narrowed the selection down to 3 or 4 brands: Suehiro, Imanishi, Sigma (select 2), or maybe Morihei. The first 3 will come from fine-tools Germany, and the Morihei is being sold on whetstones.fi, but I have no experience with them. But that doenst hold me back.

I just want something different then Shapton or Naniwa.

I don't care about S&G or soaking, both are fine. 

A stone that always passes my mind is the rika 5000, by many it is called 'closer to 3000 then 5000'. Some call the shapton pro2 also 'closer to 3000'. 
Are those stones too similar? Im talking about edge here, not feedback or feel.

How about the brands I mention? To get to the goal 'in between pro2k and kitayama', which stones of the brand mentioned above would fit that role?
Sigma has a 3000 and a 6000, 
Suehiro has 3,4,5k stones (I believe cerax or non-cerax is the same)
Imanishi has a 4000, but is it?

Who can help me out with sharing some experiences with one or more of the stones im leaning towards?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Nov 14, 2021)

The edge off a Shapton Glass 4k reigns supreme among 4k grits IMO. It is my touch up stone of choice. 
Suehiro Ouka 3k gives a nice toothy edge - good for a quick and easy polish too, but a soaker.


----------



## xxxclx (Nov 14, 2021)

People do seem to like JKI 4k a lot too









Gesshin 4000 Grit Stone


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin™ 4000 Grit Sharpening Stone is an awesome shiage toishi (finishing stone). Like this rest of the Gesshin™ stones, I have been testing this one for quite some time now. This is my favorite stone in the 3000-6000 grit range of any stone...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com


----------



## tostadas (Nov 14, 2021)

JNS Red Aoto feels somewhere between 2k and 4k. It has replaced my SP2k for most knives.


----------



## M1k3 (Nov 14, 2021)

Shapton Glass 4k for splash and go

JKI 4k for soaker


----------



## M1k3 (Nov 14, 2021)

Or Venev.


----------



## Walla (Nov 14, 2021)

I personally flop back and forth between Rika 5k, SG 4k and the ouka 3k. They are similar and different at the same time. Ouka and Rika are very similar ones just courser and a bit refined, the other more refined and a bit course. I get it's rather lame to describe them that way...but that's really how they feel to me, both in terms of sharpening and cutting.(throw the 6k in there as well...you can tell they're from the same line and manufacturer) I enjoy them all.

The 4k SG is different...I have no other SG to compare them with so they're up against other stones by other manufacturers. It works very nicely, less feedback which I gather is typically of SG stones... neither a good or bad thing IMO just different.

Certain knives seem to like certain stones...I have a vg 10 that loves the SG 4k... another vg10 that doesn't. 

White and Blue steels seem to like all of the stones, however I'm lucky enough to have several different knives that I take to work with me...so I end up sharpening.each knife with different finishing grits depending on what it's going to be used for (butchery around 2k, 3 to 4 k for general work and 5, 6 or jnat for raw fish or vegetables other than onions and tomatoes). So I can't really compare... ultimately it's personal preference...

if you can swing it there's nothing wrong with having several stones of the same grit or close to the same.

If you've got specific questions about any of the stones don't hesitate to ask.

Take care

Jeff


----------



## daveb (Nov 14, 2021)

I like most of what's been mentioned. Being across the pond, anything from JKI may be cost prohibitive but the G4K is the best soaker in it's range. I'm also a fan of SG4000, best S&G in it's range and it may be more readily available to you. The Rika, IME, is a good stone but not a great one.


----------



## spaceconvoy (Nov 15, 2021)

It's got a funky sharpening feel, very nails-on-chalkboard, but the Morihei 4k creates a screaming toothy edge for a synthetic. Very fast too


----------



## Kawa (Nov 15, 2021)

Thx for the replies so far.

I was expecting to hear a few SG4k in here. I've read a lot of good about that stone around here. Somehow, another SG doesn't appeal to me. But i do believe its a wise and rationally good suggestion. Thx fot that.

The Geshin is also mentioned often around here. From what I understand its quite superior (as a synthetic soaker). But, am I correct when saying its the housebrand of JKI? So only available there?
Its already a more expensive stone then most others in that range and I also have to import it from the USA to The Netherlands. I think it will be a little too much.

Or is there a relabeled Geshin under another name avaiable  ?


----------



## Kawa (Nov 15, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> The edge off a Shapton Glass 4k reigns supreme among 4k grits IMO. It is my touch up stone of choice.
> Suehiro Ouka 3k gives a nice toothy edge - good for a quick and easy polish too, but a soaker.



How would you describe the SG4k versus Suehiro 3k (ouka or cerax)? 
Can you actually confirm the 3k is 'coarser' then the SG4k? Just different?
Hoe would you describe them next to eachother?


----------



## Kawa (Nov 15, 2021)

Walla said:


> I personally flop back and forth between Rika 5k, SG 4k and the ouka 3k. They are similar and different at the same time. Ouka and Rika are very similar ones just courser and a bit refined, the other more refined and a bit course. I get it's rather lame to describe them that way...but that's really how they feel to me, both in terms of sharpening and cutting.(throw the 6k in there as well...you can tell they're from the same line and manufacturer) I enjoy them all.
> 
> The 4k SG is different...I have no other SG to compare them with so they're up against other stones by other manufacturers. It works very nicely, less feedback which I gather is typically of SG stones... neither a good or bad thing IMO just different.
> 
> ...



I think I understand what you mean: they are both refined, but have a certain agressiveness in them. So if my understanding is correct, the Rika feels a little bit more refined then the ouka 3k, right?
That is good information, telling me the suehiro 5k (rika) is atleast a step finer then their 3k is.


How would you compare the Shapton glass 4k versus the ouka and/or rika? I would love to hear that. Im talking mainly endresult on the edge here


----------



## Kawa (Nov 15, 2021)

I'm also very interessted in how much difference in edge there is compared to a shapton pro 2k.
Since my next step is 'high gritt', I'm not sure where to place the SP2k versus, for example, a ouka 3k.

Is the ouka 3k a step finer, or will a stone like that give you almost the same edge in practise?


----------



## cotedupy (Nov 15, 2021)

Not owning an Ouka is like wilfully sabotaging your knives.


----------



## branwell (Nov 15, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Thx for the replies so far.



I have a Rika and an Ouka.
Am a huge fan of the Ouka especially for stainless. Decent bite and keenness and feels great to sharpen on.
The Rika on the other hand feels great to sharpen on but doesn't have much bite and I've never been able to get too keen an edge of it for its grit rating.

I cant compare the Ouka to a SP2K but I can to a Shapton Glass 2K and in that case, the Ouka's edge is noticeably keener with similar levels of bite.

You also mention you like bite. Have you tried hybrid edges? Like sharpening on a 1k or 1.5k and stropping on something like a 6K or 8K, not enough to get a 6K or 8K edge, but enough to keen up the 1K edge?

Also a 2k or 3K edge stropped on the rough side of leather with 3 micron diamond paste or spray makes for a pretty awesome general purpose kitchen edge imo.


----------



## Matus (Nov 15, 2021)

Since I have not mentioned it in a while - Gesshin Synthetic Natural. The most pleasant, 4000-ish finisher I have used so far.


----------



## Kawa (Nov 15, 2021)

branwell said:


> I have a Rika and an Ouka.
> Am a huge fan of the Ouka especially for stainless. Decent bite and keenness and feels great to sharpen on.
> The Rika on the other hand feels great to sharpen on but doesn't have much bite and I've never been able to get too keen an edge of it for its great rating.
> 
> ...



I haven't tried hybrid edges. Might do in the future just to try how it feels.
Glad you say that the ouka is a step more refined than the glass 2k.

Can only hope someone with a shapton pro 2k also has that experience


----------



## Kawa (Nov 15, 2021)

I think I find Gesshin a little bit to pricy at this point. Especially considered I have to ship them to Holland aswell.

I can find a ouka (€39,-), cerax 3000 (€50,-) or rika (€49,-), adding €15,- for sending
versus
Gesshin €85,- and adding international shipping on top of that.

Im not doubting they are great stones though! Just too much for the gift i'm asking.


----------



## Steampunk (Nov 15, 2021)

What do you want this 4K-ish stone for? Edges or Polishing? What sorts of steel? Just AUS-10, Aogami & Shirogami?

If it's for edges, I'll add a vote for the Shapton Glass 4K HR. It's one of my _very favorite_ culinary edges on a lot of different good-quality steels, for general-purpose work. 

Around this range, there are also some relatively affordable natural stones, that create amazing edges. Belgian Blue's, Hard Arks, etc.

If it's for polishing, then one of the JNS synthetic Aoto's would be my suggestions. Not my favorite edges typically, but awesome for wide/single bevel sort of work. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Kawa (Nov 16, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> What do you want this 4K-ish stone for? Edges or Polishing? What sorts of steel? Just AUS-10, Aogami & Shirogami?
> 
> If it's for edges, I'll add a vote for the Shapton Glass 4K HR. It's one of my _very favorite_ culinary edges on a lot of different good-quality steels, for general-purpose work.
> 
> ...



It sure helps.
I read a lot SG4k suggestions in here. It might be worth reconsidering. Not sure yet if I switch my mind in the end, but that wouldn't be because there is doubt about the stone and the edges it produces. Its just, sometimes you just want something and sometimes you dont want something.


Your other questions, yes my own knives are in those 3 steels. No high demanding steels. Most other knives I sharpen are friends/family and dont need anything above SP2k. So, it's just wanting a new toy, no need to get to a practical kind of edge type. I just want to try an edge on my own knives, somewhere in the middle between SP2k and kitayama, so thats why I aim towards a 4k-ish stone. It shouldnt be too close to SP2k though, hence my questions to compare some with the SP2k.

Thats why I also keep in mind which stone I feel attracted too, and not just ask and buy 'the best recommendation'. If the last was the case, SG4k would be on top, after all the tips in here.


----------



## Matus (Nov 16, 2021)

SG4 is a great stone, but on the harder side. I use it most often with razors (low pressure honing compared to knives sharpening) and it loads up a bit.

From the list of stones your are considering I would be most curios about the Rika personally.


----------



## big_adventure (Nov 16, 2021)

I'll throw in the Chosera 3K / Nani Pro 3K (basically the same stone). It's somewhere between a 3000 and a 4000, has great feel, lasts forever, blah blah. You said "looking for other than Nani and Shapton" but you are still getting a ton of SG recs here. 

Good luck!


----------



## Luxusborg (Nov 16, 2021)

Morihei 4000 is also a contenter and was mentioned above: 








Japanese sharpening stones | Hiomakivi.fi English


Quality Japanese sharpening stones and whetstones for knives. Naniwa, Shapton, Cerax, Suehiro, Morihei, Atoma. Our goal is to offer you one of the best-valued whetstones and knives from the higher end of the range. These stones are used in kitchens and workshops all over.




www.whetstone.fi












Morihei Hishiboshi Whetstone #4000 (Hi) - Kamimoto EU


This ceramic Japanese sharpening stone has a grain size of 4000. Perfect for restoring a dull knife. The sharpening stone can be used to sharpen practically all knives. From outdoor knives to kitchen knives, and from pocket knives to chisels.




kamimoto.co


----------



## madmotts (Nov 16, 2021)

The Rika is a good stone that I recently revisited after swapping it out of my progression. I think I fell out of love with it because over time I had been shortening the soak.

I’m not a great sharpener (no polishing) but I have a King 6k, nanohone 6k and feels approximate to those. the nano being finer. It’s a super muddy/creamy stone after a good soak (thirsty-30min+). Once you get it warmed up you’ll have a thick layer of gray mud on your stone, knife and fingers- messy in good way. Fast enough speed isn’t an issue. Easy to be the finishing stone or add a diamond strop to finish. It has a very soft feeling and is soothing to use. leaves more bite than nano and king, maybe cause it’s courser? Another note for learning sharpeners it’s an easy stone to use. Im more consistent on this than my others 6ks for whatever. Haven’t tried SGs yet (MTC ship my stuff!)

Soaking stones are annoying but not if I dig the results. Rika is still one of my favorites.


----------



## Jovidah (Nov 16, 2021)

If you're in the Netherlands it may be worth having a look at Karasu knives; I know they stock the Morihei stones but I have no idea how pricing / shipping cost compares to ordering from Finland.
As someone else mentioned I wouldn't rule out the Naniwa Pro 3k; it's a great stone.


----------



## Kawa (Nov 16, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I'll throw in the Chosera 3K / Nani Pro 3K (basically the same stone). It's somewhere between a 3000 and a 4000, has great feel, lasts forever, blah blah. You said "looking for other than Nani and Shapton" but you are still getting a ton of SG recs here.
> 
> Good luck!



Haha i noticed aswell. But that's ok. I like to chat about the sharpening/stones subject and maybe if I read enough encouragement about the SG4k it will get interessting after all. I have my mind set on 'something different, something new', but who knows what it will be in the end  Shapton glass makes me think 'very good, but boring', it lacks the 'Japanese feeling' or something like that. And since it's pure hobby for me...


----------



## Kawa (Nov 16, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> If you're in the Netherlands it may be worth having a look at Karasu knives; I know they stock the Morihei stones but I have no idea how pricing / shipping cost compares to ordering from Finland.
> As someone else mentioned I wouldn't rule out the Naniwa Pro 3k; it's a great stone.



Why have I never heared/seen anything about this site 
Thx for this link!


----------



## Jovidah (Nov 16, 2021)

They're pretty new. They have some interesting stuff; they're basically another one of those linked-to-Hitohira shops.


----------



## Kawa (Nov 16, 2021)

No experiences with the Imanishi (bester I asume) 4000
or Sigma select 2 #3000?

I think Ive seen bester and sigma select stones more related to coarse stones around here, but still?


----------



## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Hi,
> 
> So I'm about to 'give a hint for an x-mas present' and I've set my mind on a 4000-ish stone.
> Why?
> ...



forget sigma. i read the 3k behaves like a 1k!! 

i have used the suehiro ouka 3k. and its supposedly the exact same stone as the cerax 3k.
the ouka is good. it feels nice sharpening, its a true 3k. soso kasumi. always those scratches. SOAKER.

the naniwa pro 2k does pretty much everything the ouka does. except its not a soaker! and the kasumi is scratch free! also finishes at 3k.
this is a much better stones imo.

---------------

but now i see you want a 4k. ok just get the best one from the start. glass 4k. done. 
and while you're at it, get the 3k too. these 2 are very different stones. yet very similar. 

i've also tried the 4k kitayama from cleancut. (it might, or might not, be the exact same stone as the imanishi bester 4k from fine-tools). this stone is softer and creamier than the glass 4k. and you can cut into it by mistake. splash and go. i had fun with this one for a while but in the end its just another 4k. and the glass 4k is much better and faster. so i dont use much anymore. end result is almost identical to glass 4k. its just half as fast on most ss and tool steel. 

-----------

i dont have the morihei 4k but i do have the 12k and 9k karasu. both of these are muddy. not much, but at least so muddy that they will ruin a razor edge (so you can't actually shave with it). i'm guessing the 4k will be similar. don't really know if you really want this minor muddyness. i guess you have to figure this out yourself. the moriheis are usually thought of as premium stones. and while these are good. they're not better than anything else to be honest. its just different. i personally dont like them all that much. except for kasumi contrast (karasu 9k), cladding finisher for both ss/iron (12k). but for edges?? nope. nope.


----------



## spaceconvoy (Nov 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> forget sigma. i read the 3k behaves like a 1k!!
> 
> i have used the suehiro ouka 3k. and its supposedly the exact same stone as the cerax 3k.
> the ouka is good. it feels nice sharpening, its a true 3k. soso kasumi. always those scratches. SOAKER.
> ...


As someone who actually does have the Morihei 4k, the edge is creates is the best part about it. I would strongly recommend it over the Rika for edges alone, though I haven't tried many else in this range. You can really feel the effect of the Morihei's mixed grit range, very toothy and natural-stone-like.

Personally I prefer to use natural finishers because they're so much easier to deburr on. The problem I had with the Morihei was it's so fast that it's hard to prevent more burr formation on the final strokes. Also, while it is muddy, I struggled to get an even kasumi with it. I'm not into polishing so it's probably just my poor technique, but it came out streaky for me. And like I said before, not the best feeling stone. But if I were forced to use a synthetic finisher it might be this stone, followed by a bare strop.

The Rika is a pleasure to use but produces mediocre edges, the Morihei is the opposite.


----------



## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> As someone who actually does have the Morihei 4k, the edge is creates is the best part about it. I would strongly recommend it over the Rika for edges alone, though I haven't tried many else in this range. You can really feel the effect of the Morihei's mixed grit range, very toothy and natural-stone-like.
> 
> Personally I prefer to use natural finishers because they're so much easier to deburr on. The problem I had with the Morihei was it's so fast that it's hard to prevent more burr formation on the final strokes. Also, while it is muddy, I struggled to get an even kasumi with it. I'm not into polishing so it's probably just my poor technique, but it came out streaky for me. And like I said before, not the best feeling stone. But if I were forced to use a synthetic finisher it might be this stone, followed by a bare strop.
> 
> The Rika is a pleasure to use but produces mediocre edges, the Morihei is the opposite.



do you know if all the moriheis are "made with natural stone powder"? 
i have a feeling they all are. i know the karasu is but the 12k feels kinda similar somehow. and they smell similar.
dont really know if i like it. i much prefer completely synth materials for the sheer performance. _*when that is wanted*_ i should say.

------------

the thing i have noticed with kasumi finishes and synth stones is that; if its really muddy its ****. 
if its 0 muddy; its **** too (it will just mirror polish then, like the hibikis)

it should be like 10-15% muddy, then you get good kasumi. thinking shapton pro 1k. naniwa pro 2k etc. and thats just what they are! very, very slightly muddy stones, releases just a little bit. but that little bit is what makes all the magic. imo.


----------



## spaceconvoy (Nov 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> do you know if all the moriheis are "made with natural stone powder"?
> i have a feeling they all are.


Yes, but no idea how much and concrete information about them is patchy


----------



## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

i think both of the karasu and the 12k smell exactly the same so i guess its the same recepie more or less. 

just wanted to say that the morihei karasu 9k is the best overall synth for _kasumi finishes_ that i have tried! splash and go. 
and its almost identical to my ohira uchigumori. its also identical in finish to the suehiro 8k green w8 silicon carbide. but that one is a soaker!!

i got both mine from that place in finland. they are well stocked on the good stuff and ship fast. i had mine the day after (but you most likely wont).


----------



## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Yes, but no idea how much and concrete information about them is patchy



yeah its like they try to keep things secret. but the stuff is not really that unique, nor good. so even ****n bother?
wow yeah, you ground down this gray rock to make a synth sharpening stone. how ****ing innovative of you!


----------



## zizirex (Nov 16, 2021)

I haven't tried SG4K, but it should be good. I have SG3K, Ouka 3K, NP3K, Morihei Hi 4K, Imanishi Tamago/Bester 4K. Overall my fav edge would be Morihei 4K and NP3K. they have a similar quality edge, but Morihei feels more like a natural stone edge. In terms of polishing, Ouka 3k would be the easiest to polish followed by Morihei. I haven't really done much with Tamago since it has a cracking problem worse than Chosera. NP3K takes a while to make a decent contrast (almost the same as SP2K effort-wise).

Another recommendation is Naniwa Gouken 4K, they said it's one of the nicer underrated 4K stone


----------



## Kawa (Nov 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> forget sigma. i read the 3k behaves like a 1k!!
> 
> i have used the suehiro ouka 3k. and its supposedly the exact same stone as the cerax 3k.
> the ouka is good. it feels nice sharpening, its a true 3k. soso kasumi. always those scratches. SOAKER.
> ...



I see enough votes for the glass 4k to believe its the best stone in this range, for edges and speed. I think I have to make up my mind first about, do I want the best stone, but somehow doesn't appeal to me, or do I want something fun to try. From the alternatives I get a pretty good idea about differences now, so I have to make up my mind about hard or soft. 

I don't know yet. Rika is a stone that always appealed to me. I read a lot about muddy and creamy and havent got such a stone yet. But I also read more often that the edges aren't the most favorite. So do I want that (probably not).

Sigma is out. Described as almost 1000 gritt; thats not what i seek.

The thing is, I dont need a 4000 per se, just something in the middle of shapton pro 2k and kitayama 8000. I was afraid the ouka/cerax3000 might be to close to the SP2k, so Im glad you compared those. It might be a 'toothy/coarse 6000' for that sake aswell, but not to close to kitayama 8000 

Trying to pick the 'red line' out of al the experiences to make a picture of what stone has what characteristics


----------



## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

you could always just get all of them.
naniwa 2k/3k.
suehiro 3/5k and the debados and gokumyos.
shapton glass 3-4k, 4k soft
imanishi 4k.

it's not like you're buying a metric ton of blow in rotterdam.


----------



## Kawa (Nov 17, 2021)

That is against one of my long term goals: I want to wear out a stone before the end of time 


Ah well, I can always flatten my superstone 220. It will melt away


----------



## Jovidah (Nov 17, 2021)

inferno said:


> it's not like you're buying a metric ton of blow in rotterdam.


Shhhhhhhht... it's called' natural stone powder'....


----------



## big_adventure (Nov 17, 2021)

inferno said:


> it's not like you're buying a metric ton of blow in rotterdam.



But if you do, er, KKF Massdrop IV ?


----------



## Kawa (Nov 17, 2021)

Then you might be better of growing it yourself


----------



## big_adventure (Nov 17, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Then you might be better of growing it yourself



The climate in Paris isn't conducive to growing coco. Don't ask how I know.


----------



## Kawa (Nov 17, 2021)

Ah wait, as a Dutchman I assumed 'blow' referred to weed.

Appearently its not


----------



## Benuser (Nov 17, 2021)

Shapton Glass Stone HR korrel 4000 fine 3.68 micron slijpsteen, 50103


Lengte: 21,0 cm Korrelgrootte: 4.000 Gewicht: 383 gram




www.knivesandtools.nl




Shapton GS 4k €47,20


----------



## JaVa (Nov 17, 2021)

About the Sigma select 3000. After using it for few years, I like it. Liked it from the first encounter with it and haven't changed my mind since. 

The feel is decent, a bit grainy, but not in a harsh way. The thing is I have a few R2, VG10, ginsan and a Hap40 knives and that stone makes all of them so easy and fast to get sharp. That's what I bought it for and that's where it shines. I always see guys saying how difficult some steels are and wonder why? Before I remember that since getting the Sigma I haven't had those issues anymore. 

Still not a stone for everyones taste for sure. No zen vibes here. 

Not being careful you could ruin a knife, but with proper use, hard to beat for what it was intended for. And yeah it's a bit rough for a 3000 grit. Though wouldn't call it a 1000 either. Maybe 2000 is somewhere in the ballpark?


----------



## Kawa (Nov 17, 2021)

JaVa said:


> About the Sigma select 3000. After using it for few years, I like it. Liked it from the first encounter with it and haven't changed my mind since.
> 
> The feel is decent, a bit grainy, but not in a harsh way. The thing is I have a few R2, VG10, ginsan and a Hap40 knives and that stone makes all of them so easy and fast to get sharp. That's what I bought it for and that's where it shines. I always see guys saying how difficult some steels are and wonder why? Before I remember that since getting the Sigma I haven't had those issues anymore.
> 
> ...



I think I've heared this series is developed for difficult steels, like high vanadium and high overall hardness.
I was wondering what makes those stones good for those steels.

Hard/sharp particles? Maybe thats why it feels a little grainy/rough on softer/easier-to-abrade steels?


----------



## M1k3 (Nov 17, 2021)

Kawa said:


> I think I've heared this series is developed for difficult steels, like high vanadium and high overall hardness.
> I was wondering what makes those stones good for those steels.
> 
> Hard/sharp particles? Maybe thats why it feels a little grainy/rough on softer/easier-to-abrade steels?


Softer binding, releasing more grit. The 240 and 1k are Silicon Carbide, the rest are AlOx.


----------



## Benuser (Nov 18, 2021)

Naniwa Professional Stone, P330, korrel 3000


Japanse slijpsteen van hoge kwaliteit. Korrel: 3000; Afmetingen: 21,0x7,0x2,0 cm.




 www.knivesandtools.nl




A few years ago I paid €70, in the Chosera time even less. But to be fair it is almost three times as thick as the Shapton SG. The result is at least a JIS4k, if not higher, but offering more bite than the SG. Polish is remarkably bright, but I hardly care. The feedback it offers, both tactile and auditive, is splendid, and makes working very easy and fast. You simply feel when the very edge has been reached, or whether a burr is gone or not. A hard stone, but not just hard. A silky feeling. 
My final stone if I had to restart. I've a Naniwa Junpaku 8k I've got for little money and like playing with it, without any real need.


----------



## milangravier (Nov 18, 2021)

I got Gesshin 4k, Naniwa pro 3k and 5k, Naniwa super 3k and 5k, Shapton glass HC 4k, Bester 4k and Morihei 4k.
They will all work. But I would maybe put Bester 4k down the list because it is really for wide bevel more than for sharpening.

Gesshing is hard stone like ceramic hard stuff. If will clog and you need atoma to refresh the surface. It is fine enough but being hard and abrasive, I would say it tends to be a 3k feeling on the stone, not 4k. Advantages are : stay flat super long time. You can use the stone lapped to get an abrasive brick or let it clog and it will start burnish your edge. 2 stones in one.

Naniwa pro are my fav for sharpening : 3k is fine enough to feel like 4k and it is still a nice balance of teeth. 5k is surely more refine and mirror stuff, it will be less bity.
I never tried my Naniwa super for sharpening. They are burnishing stone, feels odd and gummy. Feeling is weird I think and I think the edge will be too flat no teeth.

Shapton HC 4k is only used for me to work ura on single bevel. It is hard and a bit too glassy for me as a normal stone. But it is very abrasive, finer than gesshin and will stay flat long time

Morihei 4k is quite soft (kind of similar to bester but with better feel, less muddy, better overall). You will get a sort of natural stone feeling about LV3. It is quite soft and muddy (compare to naniwa pro 3k which is not so hard I think but will give only black swarf). It is a nice stone but I think it tends to be a wide bevel stone more than a microbevel stone.

My advise would be Naniwa pro or Chosera 3k.


----------



## Bart.s (Nov 18, 2021)

I'll also echo the Naniwa pro/Chosera 3K. Fast, silky feeling stone with great tactile feedback like @Benuser mentioned. It finishes a little higher then what it's grit would suggest, but still offers good bite. It's also my most used stone, as I use it for touch-ups regularly. And the pricing at kniveandtools.nl is the best I've found anywhere.


----------



## Jovidah (Nov 18, 2021)

I'll second the appreciation for the Naniwa Pro 3k, although admittedly I never used any other stones in that 3k-4k range, so my recommendation is virtually useless. But at least it's a million times better than the 5k, which I found to be a turd (it's very different from the rest, dries out too much, feels gummy, no sense of feedback). 
If you like the 1k you'll like the 3k.


----------



## PineWood (Nov 18, 2021)

I also have SP2000 and Kitayama 8000 and I totally feel your need to have something in between. I had the Rika 5000 and it's very good. Probably not the fastest, but if you like good feedback, a softer and easy stone, you will like it. But... I sold mine because I didn't want soaking stones anymore. Right now I'm exploring natural stones. In this grit range I have a hard aoto that I like, an aizu, perfect finisher for kitchen knives imo, and and a softer Takashima that is a real pleasure to use.
I also tried to avoid Shapton and Naniwa in the beginning, but there's a reason they are mentioned so often... these are probably the best brands in general.


----------



## Thpp9 (Nov 18, 2021)

I really like my Naniwa pro 3k as well. Really nice edge for general kitchen use, refined yet with nice bite. I find myself using it a lot more than my Rika 5k.

Also, I have ordered many stones from whetstone.fi and some knives from Karasu-knives. I have talked with both of them on Instagram and they were willing to help me out every time. Could recommend both of these vendors!


----------



## Kawa (Nov 18, 2021)

I don't have anything against Naniwa or shapton. Those were the first two brands I noticed when I started. Knivesandtools sells them and no other 'Japanese whetstones'. So most of my stones are Shapton (glass 120, pro 220, pro 2000) and Naniwa (pro 400, chosera 600, superstone 220/1000 and superstone 2000/5000) Since I joined this forum, I learned a lot more about other brands. I bought a bester 1200 (to replace my too-soft and edge-ruining superstone 1000) and a kitayama 8000 (both Imanishi). It's just some kind of wanting to try something new, for no good reason. But since there are so many recommendations for the chosera3000 or glass4k, I'm not sure yet what to do...

Don't take it as stubbornness if I dont choose for naniwa/shapton. I will never complain afterwards. The experiences are clear and I'm gratefull i received so many different opinions on all kind of stones in this topic.


Also nice to read that whetstone.fi and karasu served one well!


----------



## branwell (Nov 18, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Don't take it as stubbornness if I dont choose for naniwa/shapton. I will never complain afterwards. The experiences are clear and I'm gratefull i received so many different opinions on all kind of stones in this topic.



There are soooo many stones to choose from and the reality is, one mans treasure is another mans trash.

If you have the ability, about the only real way to learn if a stone is right for you is to try it. I see you are in the Netherlands. Maybe there is a shop somewhere that would let you try some stones, or perhaps there is a pro sharpener or collector around that would let you drop by and try their stones. Maybe there is the equivalent to this forum over there with a trade or buy sell forum where you could buy some stones, and trade / sell the ones you don't like. I've done that here a couple times and it worked great.


----------



## daveb (Nov 18, 2021)

If you were over here, instead of over there, I would be happy to loan you a couple examples cited for you to pay with. But. 

So get the Shapton and be done. Or the Naniwa. Stones are even more subjective than knives but at the end of the day it's Ford vs Chevy. Or maybe Saab vs Volvo


----------



## M1k3 (Nov 18, 2021)

Nanohone remind me of a "creamier" feeling Glass stones. Whatever that's worth.


----------



## Benuser (Nov 19, 2021)

Have used the NP3k for a long time and just bought the SG4k. My first impression: it delivers a good edge, but with less bite than I expected. Requires very precise work, but the absence of tactile feedback isn't helpful. Now the surprise: having it being followed by the NP3k delivers the best edge I've ever got, with any combination of stones, and restores the bite I'm looking for. A wild guess: must have to do with the quasi-total absence of burr after the SG and before finishing with the NP. I'm open to other explanations. For sure, the extra given attention will have had its effect as well.


----------



## KingShapton (Nov 19, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Have used the NP3k for a long time and just bought the SG4k. My first impression: it delivers a good edge, but with less bite than I expected. Requires very precise work, but the absence of tactile feedback isn't helpful. Now the surprise: having it being followed by the NP3k delivers the best edge I've ever got, with any combination of stones, and restores the bite I'm looking for. A wild guess: must have to do with the quasi-total absence of burr after the SG and before finishing with the NP. I'm open to other explanations. For sure, the extra given attention will have had its effect as well.


Interesting, your impression of the SG4k "produces a good edge, but with less bite than expected / hoped for" exactly matches my impression.

I solved the problem (I prefer edges with bite) with a bigger jump, the SG4k can easily do that. Most of the time I go directly from the SG500 to the SG4K, more rarely from the SG1k. This helps to improve the bite a bit, but the stone is not my preferred finisher. But that from the point of view that I've really developed a strong preference for edges with bite.

Your idea with the NP3k after the SG4k is interesting, that sounds like a very good result. Would you like to try this again with the NP2k after the SG4k? I ask for it because, as far as I know, the NP2k should generate significantly more bite than the NP3k.


----------



## Benuser (Nov 19, 2021)

Will give it a try and report. Please note, the NP2k lacks the initial aggressivity of the old Chosera.


----------



## M1k3 (Nov 19, 2021)

I'll second what @KingShapton says about using the 500 > 4K progression instead of 1Kish > 4K. Leaves good bite coming from the 500, if you don't hang out on the 4K for a long time. Coming from something finer/less aggressive leaves a good edge but most of the bite goes away, depending on the steel. With higher carbide steels (R2 for example) it tends to leave more bite coming from a 1Kish stone.


----------



## Benuser (Nov 19, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Would you like to try this again with the NP2k after the SG4k? I ask for it because, as far as I know, the NP2k should generate significantly more bite than the NP3k.


The result is simply a good NP2k edge, not different from any other one, nothing being kept of the SG4k refinement. Immediately a typical 2k burr. Different from what I expected, because the NP2k feels less aggressive in the beginning than the 2k Chosera.
It's not just bite I'm looking for, it's the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. If I were looking for bite only I could make a jump from a SG320 to NP2k. Plenty of bite, but an 'open' edge or refined saw that won't hold that long -- only the time before the teeth get abraded. Speaking of carbons here. With some stainless with relatively large carbides the choice and the results may be very different -- think a 19C27 as in UX-10. It keeps its bite even when perfectly blunt.


----------



## Steampunk (Nov 19, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Now the surprise: having it being followed by the NP3k delivers the best edge I've ever got, with any combination of stones, and restores the bite I'm looking for. A wild guess: must have to do with the quasi-total absence of burr after the SG and before finishing with the NP. I'm open to other explanations. For sure, the extra given attention will have had its effect as well.



Shapton Glass Stones for me, generate some of the most geometrically perfect/flattest V edge bevels I've seen from synthetic stones. With other synths, even hard ones, I typically see some convexity and apex-rounding, but not with these too much. It makes the finer ones like the 4K and up feel 'keener' than I'm used to with anything short of Arks (Which are even 'keener' feeling yet... That tree-topping hair, stick into the cutting board sort of feeling, at 'grits' you don't think should do that.). However, as you said, due to very tight abrasive grading, they aren't as toothy for their grit as synths from companies with looser sieve standards.

My guess, is that the GS 4K has flattened any imprecision in the v-angle from your lower grits, and the NP 3K is putting some deeper and slightly more irregular teeth on top of that, but isn't convexing or slurry-dulling the edge as much as the 1K or less stones did initially... Essentially, you're building on top of a better 'foundation'. This at least is my theory, as I've been seeing something similar as you, and am trying to create an explanation myself for the phenomenon.

That said, it could also have to do with the steels you are sharpening... I _love_ this edge (4K SG HR, on its own) on Tosa Aogami #1 in particular (It's in that perfect zone of toothy, and drop-down sharpness. It will slay tomatoes, and not bruise herbs with equal aplomb on these knives, if doing edge-bevel sharpening.), it's pretty good on Hiromoto AS, though a bit too fine on the harder AS's I've tried and starts to lose some bite, good on hard Aogami #2, it's not quite as toothy as needed on most stainless I've tested it on (Zero bite on Victorinox or Wusthof, next to none on SLD, just a tiny, tiny bit left on Suisin AUS-8A, and it's got okay bite left on Sandvik 12C27/13C26/AEB-L/14C28N type steels for finer use applications like parers/petties; especially at the harder end of the spectrum. Polishes the X50 or X55 that Robert Herder's using like a dream and still has good teeth with their near-zero convex geometry, and is also 'decent' on larger knives in Ginsanko, but still not as good as naturals on this steel.), too refined for SG2/R2 typically, and too coarse for SRS-15... On purer carbons 10xx, Shirogami, etc, it's 'Alright'... Nothing to really write home about for secondary-edge sharpening on these steels (Tooth is better than 5-6K synths, but is nowhere near as good as naturals on pure-carbons.), and the loading is annoying on primary-bevel sharpening. Especially bad on softer ~C70 French carbons. Horrible stone for wide/single bevel polishing.

It also sits in an awkward place for razors, or woodworking tools.

On some steels, adding another step takes it further... Going finer, going to a natural, or backing it down a tiny bit somehow like what you've done.

Sharpening is interesting.


----------



## Benuser (Nov 19, 2021)

Thanks a lot, @Steampunk!


----------



## inferno (Nov 19, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Ah wait, as a Dutchman I assumed 'blow' referred to weed.
> 
> Appearently its not



blow is white powder!


----------



## inferno (Nov 19, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> I'll also echo the Naniwa pro/Chosera 3K. Fast, silky feeling stone with great tactile feedback like @Benuser mentioned. It finishes a little higher then what it's grit would suggest, but still offers good bite. It's also my most used stone, as I use it for touch-ups regularly. And the pricing at kniveandtools.nl is the best I've found anywhere.



i'd like to promote the naiwa 2k as the best stone in the series. why? its finishes at about 3k and the kasumi finish is the best of all 2-4k synths. thats why. 

you heard first here!


----------



## inferno (Nov 19, 2021)

imo the glass 4k is way too fine for 12c27/aeb-l (sandvik type steels). unless these are hardened to max. then go for 4k. 

usually thhese steels are hardned to 58 or so hrc. and then there is no real rreason to take these above 2-3k. 

now if these are taken to 60-62 or so then yes. take these to 4k. and take powder ss to 4k too imo. 

carbon deserves 6-8k. otherwise its wasted. imo that is.


----------



## 4wa1l (Nov 19, 2021)

inferno said:


> i'd like to promote the naiwa 2k as the best stone in the series. why? its finishes at about 3k and the kasumi finish is the best of all 2-4k synths. thats why.
> 
> you heard first here!


I've been so tempted to try the chosera 2k but can never justify it as I just feel it would be too similar to my chosera 3k. Mainly concerning the edge it leaves, not polishing.

Also interesting to read your thoughts on carbon. I've found the 3k is a bit of a goldilocks stone when it comes to bite and overall keenness for harder knives and especially carbon. It has put a very impressive edge on knives with AS, blue 2, white 2, white 1, SK, Ginsan and SG2 steels. It's fun to go finer but I don't think you gain much and the bite from the 3k is just awesome. I'm not the best sharpener and have ruined quite a few good edges going higher so I think that also plays into it a bit for myself.


----------



## ModRQC (Nov 19, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Will give it a try and report. Please note, the NP2k lacks the initial aggressivity of the old Chosera.





Benuser said:


> The result is simply a good NP2k edge, not different from any other one, nothing being kept of the SG4k refinement. Immediately a typical 2k burr. Different from what I expected, because the NP2k feels less aggressive in the beginning than the 2k Chosera.
> It's not just bite I'm looking for, it's the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. If I were looking for bite only I could make a jump from a SG320 to NP2k. Plenty of bite, but an 'open' edge or refined saw that won't hold that long -- only the time before the teeth get abraded. Speaking of carbons here. With some stainless with relatively large carbides the choice and the results may be very different -- think a 19C27 as in UX-10. It keeps its bite even when perfectly blunt.





Steampunk said:


> Shapton Glass Stones for me, generate some of the most geometrically perfect/flattest V edge bevels I've seen from synthetic stones. With other synths, even hard ones, I typically see some convexity and apex-rounding, but not with these too much. It makes the finer ones like the 4K and up feel 'keener' than I'm used to with anything short of Arks (Which are even 'keener' feeling yet... That tree-topping hair, stick into the cutting board sort of feeling, at 'grits' you don't think should do that.). However, as you said, due to very tight abrasive grading, they aren't as toothy for their grit as synths from companies with looser sieve standards.
> 
> My guess, is that the GS 4K has flattened any imprecision in the v-angle from your lower grits, and the NP 3K is putting some deeper and slightly more irregular teeth on top of that, but isn't convexing or slurry-dulling the edge as much as the 1K or less stones did initially... Essentially, you're building on top of a better 'foundation'. This at least is my theory, as I've been seeing something similar as you, and am trying to create an explanation myself for the phenomenon.
> 
> ...



Thanks!


----------



## inferno (Nov 19, 2021)

4wa1l

i'd say there is a fair bit to be gained by going up to 6-8k with carbons.

i take all my carbon blades up to 6 or 8 or 12k, it takes so little time, and i feel they still have bite at this level. at least up to 8k. and they feel so much sharper than maybe 3-4k. and they can handle it.


----------



## KingShapton (Nov 20, 2021)

Benuser said:


> The result is simply a good NP2k edge, not different from any other one, nothing being kept of the SG4k refinement. Immediately a typical 2k burr. Different from what I expected, because the NP2k feels less aggressive in the beginning than the 2k Chosera.
> It's not just bite I'm looking for, it's the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. If I were looking for bite only I could make a jump from a SG320 to NP2k. Plenty of bite, but an 'open' edge or refined saw that won't hold that long -- only the time before the teeth get abraded. Speaking of carbons here. With some stainless with relatively large carbides the choice and the results may be very different -- think a 19C27 as in UX-10. It keeps its bite even when perfectly blunt.


Thank you for carrying out the experiment quickly.

Also interesting to find out that the NP2k lacks the initial aggressivity of the old Chosera 2k.

And of course you are absolutely right about the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. It's not just about bite and nothing else, in that case I would sharpen with a 180 grit Sic stone and I'd be done.


----------



## Benuser (Nov 20, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Thank you for carrying out the experiment quickly.
> 
> Also interesting to find out that the NP2k lacks the initial aggressivity of the old Chosera 2k.
> 
> And of course you are absolutely right about the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. It's not just about bite and nothing else, in that case I would sharpen with a 180 grit Sic stone and I'd be done.


I only expected from the feeling the NP2k to lack the initial aggressivity I know from the Chosera 2k. In fact, it does _not_. With one single light stroke the SG 4k-edge was gone.


----------



## KingShapton (Nov 20, 2021)

Benuser said:


> I only expected from the feeling the NP2k to lack the initial aggressivity I know from the Chosera 2k. In fact, it does _not_. With one single light stroke the SG 4k-edge was gone.


Oh, then I got that wrong. Thanks for the hint


----------



## Doug (Nov 20, 2021)

Picked up a king F3 4k that Shihan recommends for edge work. Stone is a small format 185mmX62mm. The feel reminds me of the ice bear/king G3 8k, sort of a soft clay like feel that's hard to describe. The stone isn't soft however as it dishes slowly. It does load slightly as you start to sharpen but continues to release abrasive particles. Seems to work well on a wide range of steels as Shihan suggest. Need to play with it more before I form a strong opinion. I wonder if anyone has tried this stone. sharpening-stones


----------



## KingShapton (Nov 20, 2021)

Doug said:


> Picked up a king F3 4k that Shihan recommends for edge work. Stone is a small format 185mmX62mm. The feel reminds me of the ice bear/king G3 8k, sort of a soft clay like feel that's hard to describe. The stone isn't soft however as it dishes slowly. It does load slightly as you start to sharpen but continues to release abrasive particles. Seems to work well on a wide range of steels as Shihan suggest. Need to play with it more before I form a strong opinion. I wonder if anyone has tried this stone. sharpening-stones


The King 4000 is one of my favorites!


----------



## Kawa (Nov 23, 2021)

I've made my mind.

Thank you all for all the input in this topic. Many different advices and stories about a lot of different stones; perfect! I think there are enough reviews to notice a red line among all the replies, so it helped me greatly.

I'm going for the rika.. why
- appealed to me forever
- Something new. Dont have a Suehiro yet and I dont have a muddy stone
- While ouka is compared to as close to SP2k, the rika is also compared to the ouka and is being called a little more refined.
- The price is nice, im asking a gift not buying it myself. 

cons:
- The edges arent everyones favorite

I know the SG and chosera/pro are advised a lot. I know these are good stones. Just want to try some of the other brands out there this time. Can't help it.

So if the rika dissapoints me, I was warned  


Ill receive the stone near the end of the year and then have to wait for a knife to use it on. So, if I remember this topic by then, ill reply and share my story about the rika.


----------



## Tapio (Dec 3, 2021)

inferno said:


> i dont have the morihei 4k but i do have the 12k and 9k karasu. both of these are muddy. not much, but at least so muddy that they will ruin a razor edge (so you can't actually shave with it). i'm guessing the 4k will be similar. don't really know if you really want this minor muddyness. i guess you have to figure this out yourself. the moriheis are usually thought of as premium stones. and while these are good. they're not better than anything else to be honest. its just different. i personally dont like them all that much. except for kasumi contrast (karasu 9k), cladding finisher for both ss/iron (12k). but for edges?? nope. nope.


Muddyness ruining an edge is a really interesting topic. Would you care to elaborate on that?


----------



## stringer (Dec 4, 2021)

Tapio said:


> Muddyness ruining an edge is a really interesting topic. Would you care to elaborate on that?



It's called slurry dulling. Slurry or mud is a solution of metal particles, abrasive particles, and some kind of fluid (usually water but could be oil or dish soap or propylene glycol or some combo). When you are polishing or sharpening with heavy mud, especially on coarser stones with larger or harder abrasive particles, the mud can have a negative affect on the edge. On a microscopic level you are dragging your razor thin apex through a fluid filled with abrasive boulders. It's not a big deal. You just touch up the apex when you are finished polishing or thinning it whatever. Usually on straight water with a light touch to keep it crispy.


----------



## Tapio (Feb 22, 2022)

stringer said:


> It's called slurry dulling. Slurry or mud is a solution of metal particles, abrasive particles, and some kind of fluid (usually water but could be oil or dish soap or propylene glycol or some combo). When you are polishing or sharpening with heavy mud, especially on coarser stones with larger or harder abrasive particles, the mud can have a negative affect on the edge. On a microscopic level you are dragging your razor thin apex through a fluid filled with abrasive boulders. It's not a big deal. You just touch up the apex when you are finished polishing or thinning it whatever. Usually on straight water with a light touch to keep it crispy.


I just found an interesting site about Belgian natural stones. There is information about slurry dulling and how different stones can be used to minimize it. I think that I learned something and can’t wait to put this information into a test.





How does a Belgian Blue Whetstone compare to a Coticule? (a story about garnets) - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone


How does a Belgian Blue Whetstone compare to a Coticule? (a story about garnets)




www.coticule.be


----------



## Wagnum (Feb 25, 2022)

I'm also a big fan of the edge off the shapton glass 4k, not too refined


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 25, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> Interesting, your impression of the SG4k "produces a good edge, but with less bite than expected / hoped for" exactly matches my impression.
> 
> I solved the problem (I prefer edges with bite) with a bigger jump, the SG4k can easily do that. Most of the time I go directly from the SG500 to the SG4K, more rarely from the SG1k. This helps to improve the bite a bit, but the stone is not my preferred finisher. But that from the point of view that I've really developed a strong preference for edges with bite.
> 
> Your idea with the NP3k after the SG4k is interesting, that sounds like a very good result. Would you like to try this again with the NP2k after the SG4k? I ask for it because, as far as I know, the NP2k should generate significantly more bite than the NP3k.





M1k3 said:


> I'll second what @KingShapton says about using the 500 > 4K progression instead of 1Kish > 4K. Leaves good bite coming from the 500, if you don't hang out on the 4K for a long time. Coming from something finer/less aggressive leaves a good edge but most of the bite goes away, depending on the steel. With higher carbide steels (R2 for example) it tends to leave more bite coming from a 1Kish stone.



That's interesting. I was like all blank for one second reading this - cause I consider for myself that SG4K leaves enough bite, although by no mean lots of it - and then realized I never used SG4K after any other stone than SG500.

Except in one case after Cerax 1K and Ouka. Works well too in my book, but that was with HAP40 so I guess at some point in the progression long before getting that fine, a lot of the "original bite" from the coarser stones was preserved from the relative inability of water stones to sharpen the carbides. 

But now I'll have to verify this with a simple steel. Which if I'm to be clear on when to use or not to use SG4K thinking it'll leave me a bite I like like after SG500, I'll have to try Cerax 1K to SG4K, Ouka to SG4K, and SP2K to SG4K. As well as trying a straight SG500 - SG*6*K to see what it does to leave SG4K completely out and still finish on my very favorite 5K+ edge.


----------



## M1k3 (Feb 25, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> That's interesting. I was like all blank for one second reading this - cause I consider for myself that SG4K leaves enough bite, although by no mean lots of it - and then realized I never used SG4K after any other stone than SG500.
> 
> Except in one case after Cerax 1K and Ouka. Works well too in my book, but that was with HAP40 so I guess at some point in the progression long before getting that fine, a lot of the "original bite" from the coarser stones was preserved from the relative inability of water stones to sharpen the carbides.
> 
> But now I'll have to verify this with a simple steel. Which if I'm to be clear on when to use or not to use SG4K thinking it'll leave me a bite I like like after SG500, I'll have to try Cerax 1K to SG4K, Ouka to SG4K, and SP2K to SG4K. As well as trying a straight SG500 - SG*6*K to see what it does to leave SG4K completely out and still finish on my very favorite 5K+ edge.


I've tried an edge progression of SP120 -> 10k before. Actually worked pretty good in use. But much easier to just use an SG 4k be done.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 25, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I've tried an edge progression of SP120 -> 10k before. Actually worked pretty good in use. But much easier to just use an SG 4k be done.



Impressive jump but wouldn't solve my interest in knowing the limits of SG4K. But I do get in between the lines a reassurance that SG500 -> SG6K wouldn't be difficult.


----------



## KingShapton (Feb 26, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Impressive jump but wouldn't solve my interest in knowing the limits of SG4K. But I do get in between the lines a reassurance that SG500 -> SG6K wouldn't be difficult.


I can confirm that, SG500 -> SG6k is relatively easy.


----------



## pjheff (Feb 26, 2022)

Wagnum said:


> I'm also a big fan of the edge off the shapton glass 4k, not too refined



If already armed with the SG500/2000 from MTC, would the next logical purchase be the SG4000 or the SG6000?


----------



## KingShapton (Feb 26, 2022)

pjheff said:


> If already armed with the SG500/2000 from MTC, would the next logical purchase be the SG4000 or the SG6000?


Both is possible, it's a matter of personal preference..


----------



## M1k3 (Feb 26, 2022)

pjheff said:


> If already armed with the SG500/2000 from MTC, would the next logical purchase be the SG4000 or the SG6000?


Yes.


----------



## pjheff (Feb 26, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Yes.



And if the short-term budget only allowed for one purchase, would you recommend one over the other?


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 26, 2022)

pjheff said:


> And if the short-term budget only allowed for one purchase, would you recommend one over the other?






KingShapton said:


> Both is possible, it's a matter of personal preference..


----------



## M1k3 (Feb 26, 2022)

pjheff said:


> And if the short-term budget only allowed for one purchase, would you recommend one over the other?


Probably the 4k.


----------



## Wagnum (Feb 26, 2022)

pjheff said:


> And if the short-term budget only allowed for one purchase, would you recommend one over the other?


I'd go 4k but that's just me. Like others said it's personal preference


----------



## PineWood (Mar 15, 2022)

@Kawa , how do you like you Rika? Just curious...


----------



## Kawa (Mar 15, 2022)

So far, I have been using it on 4 knives.
S35VN, VG10 and some cheap stainless.

First impressions are, it is indeed muddy. I rinse a lot during sharpening, but this one has a thick slurry before I normally would rinse.
It feels nice and creamy, but I am not overhwelmed with the feedback about 'am I hitting the edge or the shoulder'

So far, I have to learn how to get a sharp edge out of it. I kind of have 'the shapton pro 2k effect' with this one: The edge is sharp, usable, but not hair popping sharp, while finishing with a kitayama (8000) gives me that hair popping sharpness, not matter how bad I sharpen that day.
I have to find out why that is with the rika, and how to conquer this. Pressure? (too much) slurry?

So, I'm still learning how to use it.
Since my son is crawling around (10 months old now) in the house all day instead of being in his crib, I don't sharpen as often anymore as I would like. The thing daddy is doing with the rasping and water sounds seems to be so interessing  . So it might take a while for a true complete evaluation.


----------



## PineWood (Mar 16, 2022)

You don't seem to like it as much as I did. However, I used it only for knives in white and blue steel, I guess for (softer) stainless it's not the best choice.
And yes, I believe you need to use low pressure on this stone, let the stone do the work.
Your son might be the youngest sharpening enthousiast on the forum!


----------



## Kawa (Mar 16, 2022)

I want to like the stone and I'm nowhere near a real conclusion yet. More like a first impression. I need to practise with it. I'll try less pressure, like you suggest.
Soon i'll try it on my own blue2 and white2 knives. They need to get duller first


----------



## KingShapton (Mar 16, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I want to like the stone and I'm nowhere near a real conclusion yet. More like a first impression. I need to practise with it. I'll try less pressure, like you suggest.
> Soon i'll try it on my own blue2 and white2 knives. They need to get duller first


I don't know the Rika myself, but based on my own experiences with the Cerax 700/1000 and the Ouka, little pressure is the key...


----------

