# Toyama vs Watanabe



## Asteger (Nov 19, 2015)

No big analysis here, but pict says a lot - Watanabe on bottom, both are 210, Toyama's new and Watanabe from 1.5 years ago maybe. I'm wondering if someone knows or it's been revealed what the connection is between the two? 

They seem to be cut in the same shape so identical profiles, same handlemaker, ... The Watanabe's a bit thicker along the spine, less finely finished, and mine has a keyaki (sp?) handle.


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## _PixelNinja (Nov 19, 2015)

If I am not mistaken, I believe reading somewhere they have a masterapprentice relationship.


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## DamageInc (Nov 19, 2015)

According to Maksim's website, the Toyama smith is 75-76 years old. How old is the Watanabe smith? Any info?


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## aboynamedsuita (Nov 19, 2015)

If you read the product descriptions:

from Watanabe
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/nigiribasami.htm

And JNS
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-mukimono-135mm/

It seems very probable that they are associated. Both form Sanjo and the ages are about the same too (I imagine the one page isn't as recent). Some knives in the newest buy thread also have the same box IIRC.


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## schanop (Nov 19, 2015)

Maxim knows what it is behind the scene, but you have to press him hard. Toyama also made his old zensho blue 2 gyuto which looks practically the same.


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## schanop (Nov 19, 2015)

An old picture of Zensho blue 2 line back in 2011: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4174-Zensho-knifes-in-stock-now http://japanesenaturalstones.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/zensho-knives.html


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## AllanP (Nov 19, 2015)

tjangula said:


> If you read the product descriptions:
> 
> from Watanabe
> http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/nigiribasami.htm
> ...



"Watanabe family is a blade smith tribe. Ken Toyama is our relationship. He is 73 years old and his father was my great grand father's apprentice."

well here's the description in the Watanabe's website you linked.

that's kinda neat that Watanabe's Great grand father taught Toyama's father and Toyama's 73 years old now


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## labor of love (Nov 19, 2015)

Don't they have completely different grinds?


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## JohnyChai (Nov 19, 2015)

Thanks for this info!


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## toddnmd (Nov 20, 2015)

DamageInc said:


> According to Maksim's website, the Toyama smith is 75-76 years old. How old is the Watanabe smith? Any info?



I thought Shinichi was quite a bit younger than 75 . . .


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## Asteger (Nov 20, 2015)

toddnmd said:


> I thought Shinichi was quite a bit younger than 75 . . .



He's no spring chicken. Looks to be in his 50s minimum. 60s maybe? We could always send him an email asking; would probably be one of the less common questions these knifemakers get.


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## Asteger (Nov 20, 2015)

... Oh, could have added this on the post above. 65ish I'd say:


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## aboynamedsuita (Nov 21, 2015)

Asteger said:


> ... Oh, could have added this on the post above. 65ish I'd say:



I was reading the bio on his webpage and I'm thinking Shinichi may be younger






If you have a look at this webpage http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/bioeng.htm I think the individual is the other picture is his father or other relative who was perhaps the forefront of Watanabe Blade prior to Shinichi :dontknow:


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## alterwisser (Nov 21, 2015)

tjangula said:


> I was reading the bio on his webpage and I'm thinking Shinichi may be younger
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All I know is: he's a pleasure to deal with!


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## aboynamedsuita (Nov 21, 2015)

alterwisser said:


> All I know is: he's a pleasure to deal with!



True, I've been impressed every time I've done business with him


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## Asteger (Nov 22, 2015)

tjangula said:


> I was reading the bio on his webpage and I'm thinking Shinichi may be younger



I think you're right! I was suprised seeing the photos and should have checked more. Yeah, I think the guy above is Iwao, Shin's father. Wonder if he is involved in the production (still)?


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## Badgertooth (Nov 22, 2015)

He is hands down the best guy to deal with, and I am a very loyal customer due to his efforts and correspondence. Makes a pretty mean knife too and I trust him as a stone dealer.


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## Noodle Soup (Nov 22, 2015)

tjangula said:


> I was reading the bio on his webpage and I'm thinking Shinichi may be younger
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The one in the bottom photo is the one I met both at the Oregon Knife show and it Atlanta at the Blade show. He stamped my name on a blade at the Oregon show.


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## Von blewitt (Nov 23, 2015)

Asteger said:


> No big analysis here, but pict says a lot - Watanabe on bottom, both are 210, Toyama's new and Watanabe from 1.5 years ago maybe. I'm wondering if someone knows or it's been revealed what the connection is between the two?
> 
> They seem to be cut in the same shape so identical profiles, same handlemaker, ... The Watanabe's a bit thicker along the spine, less finely finished, and mine has a keyaki (sp?) handle.



Does anyone know what the kanji closer to the handle means?


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## Asteger (Nov 23, 2015)

'Made by...'


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## Von blewitt (Nov 23, 2015)

Seems a bit superfluous


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## TheDispossessed (Nov 23, 2015)

Looks like Heidi uses the same last character as well.


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## Asteger (Nov 23, 2015)

Von blewitt said:


> Seems a bit superfluous



Yup, but that's. Why it's often not used. Old Shigs had it, not now.

But - same meaning, different feeling - sounds more impressive if translated as 'Produced by Watanabe' etc. (Ie. 'This is a special product/item') Sales spin


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## Jkts (Nov 24, 2015)

Asteger said:


> No big analysis here, but pict says a lot - Watanabe on bottom, both are 210, Toyama's new and Watanabe from 1.5 years ago maybe. I'm wondering if someone knows or it's been revealed what the connection is between the two?
> 
> They seem to be cut in the same shape so identical profiles, same handlemaker, ... The Watanabe's a bit thicker along the spine, less finely finished, and mine has a keyaki (sp?) handle.




Out of curiosity I emailed Shinichi who is always quick to respond.

He explained that Toyama is his master and they work closely together. 

He also has learned from other masters including his father who is retired, another Toyama and others on polishing, Mr. Hasegawa on knives, and Chandra Shekhar Sharma on machine tools.

That is a picture of him from the Oregon show. 

It is interesting to hear how he continually refines and improves his craft.


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## aboynamedsuita (Nov 24, 2015)

Jkts said:


> Out of curiosity I emailed Shinichi who is always quick to respond.
> 
> He explained that Toyama is his master and they work closely together.
> 
> ...



Well I guess that clears it up and explains the similarities. Cool tidbit of info too


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## Noodle Soup (Nov 24, 2015)

And the Oregon photo was taken several years ago. I wish he could have made it an annual event but kitchen knives don't have much draw for that crowd. When I put things out there you always get the impression show goers think they should all be thrown in a big box marketed "your choice, 50 cents!" And I've had some pretty interesting Japanese maker's blades on my table. "Takeda, why I can get 12 knives in a set down at Wal-Mart that look like that for $24.95!" I wonder why Bob Kramer quit coming?


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## lucabrasi (Nov 24, 2015)

How different are the grinds? I have had my Watanabe pro 240 for a few months and at this point it's just about my favorite cutter. I'd be interested in a performance comparison if there are significant differences.


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## Asteger (Nov 25, 2015)

lucabrasi said:


> How different are the grinds? I have had my Watanabe pro 240 for a few months and at this point it's just about my favorite cutter. I'd be interested in a performance comparison if there are significant differences.



If you're asking me, I can't really compare too much. For one thing, I've had the Toyama for less than 2 weeks and just used it a bit. 

You can see my Watanabe choil shot above and I think it gives an idea of that one, but you'll already know that knife. The back is quite flat I think and the blade is thicker with a thicker spine. The Toyama is thinner, on the back of the blade there seems to be more of a bevel, a slight bevel up to 1 cm from the edge, while the front of the blade seems flatter than the W, with both looking like they've got the s-grind. I don't know how this all affects things, but the Watanabe Pro 210 is a heavier knife than the Toyama 210, and having used the Toyama a bit it somehow seems to release food better despite looking/feeling similar in grind on the face, and maybe even being flatter. Could perhaps just be that the nice Toyama food release is helped by a different polish. I don't know, but the current polish on my W is less fine which shouldn't be a disadvantage. Oh, and taper isn't really different beween the 2 as in there isn't really a big taper on either; solid spine, which I kind of like.

I don't mean any of this to sound definitive, just impressions - grind and geometry, I guess. I love both knives, the disadvantage being that they're cousins if not siblings and so I've got 2 knives which are fairly close. I hope to keep each for a long time, though, and so it's not a bad thing as you never know what will happen.


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## lucabrasi (Nov 25, 2015)

Great info, thanks. Yea I suppose that last part where the knives are siblings is what I was interested in, and the rest of the detail described how. 

I love my Watanabe. Plainly love it. Nice to see the Toyama seemingly playing the same game.


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## Asteger (Nov 25, 2015)

The Toyama, at least the one I have, will probably be more in the sweet spot for most people, between a wafer-thin laser (hate that term) and a, I dunno, Wustoff or something - a hefty workhorse. The Watanabe leans toward the horse side, and the Toyama feels light to me but I think really would be in the middle for most people. If it helps, I sold a Shigefusa kasumi because it was just a little too insubstantial for me, and the Toyama just has enough and a nice balance.

That's just now. In a couple months I could well be pulling out chukabocho again and shelving the Toyama or Watanabe because they feel like puny petties in comparison. :dontknow:


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## wbusby1 (Feb 25, 2016)

BUMP

[I was wondering if anyone else could weigh in on comparing the performance of Toyama vs Watanabe? I have a Toyama gyuto and was considering trying a Watanabe gyuto but I've heard twice on this site now that the Toyama has better food release despite being a bit thinner... which has scared me away from Watanabe.

Does anyone else have experience with both?]


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## chinacats (Feb 25, 2016)

Don't have both, but the food release on the Watanabe is excellent. Mine is a standard kasumi 240...


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## Asteger (Feb 26, 2016)

The W's thicker, yes, but they have the same grind. They're like brothers, basically


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## Dardeau (Feb 26, 2016)

I'll be giving my toyama it's maiden voyage today. I'll let you know how it compares to my former Watanabe.


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## Asteger (Feb 26, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> I'll be giving my toyama it's maiden voyage today. I'll let you know how it compares to my former Watanabe.



If I remember, you liked the W very much. Is the T a 240 gyuto? Enjoy


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## masibu (Mar 26, 2016)

i know this is an older thread but thought it might be worth mentioning that the 240 watanabe gyuto i received in the mail last week bares the same spine dimensions as the toyama dimensions on jns. I actually purchased the knife hoping for a thicker knife similar to my old 270 watanabe and was slightly disappointed as i honestly would have just saved 70 bucks ordering a toyama to begin with. knife still kicks arse but money is money...


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## augerpro (Mar 26, 2016)

What's the cladding on the Toyama blue steel gyuto?


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## KimBronnum (Mar 26, 2016)

They are iron clad. 
- Kim


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## labor of love (Mar 26, 2016)

I'm really happy with the wat I currently own but I'm starting to think Toyama is a better deal. Unless someone can convince me watanabe has a superior grind or something.


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## jacko9 (Mar 26, 2016)

Asteger said:


> The Toyama, at least the one I have, will probably be more in the sweet spot for most people, between a wafer-thin laser (hate that term) and a, I dunno, Wustoff or something - a hefty workhorse. The Watanabe leans toward the horse side, and the Toyama feels light to me but I think really would be in the middle for most people. If it helps, I sold a Shigefusa kasumi because it was just a little too insubstantial for me, and the Toyama just has enough and a nice balance.
> 
> That's just now. In a couple months I could well be pulling out chukabocho again and shelving the Toyama or Watanabe because they feel like puny petties in comparison. :dontknow:



ger, since you brought up the weight comparison between the Toyama and Watanabe and also the Shig - how do they compare? Also do these knives share any of the Kato characteristics?


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## El Pescador (Mar 26, 2016)

I can't tell a difference between the 2. Both the W and Toy could be interchangeable.


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## masibu (Mar 26, 2016)

it is a master/apprentice relationship so I guess the apple doesnt fall far from the tree


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## Dardeau (Mar 26, 2016)

The Watanabe gyuto I have experience with had a kurouchi finish and from what I can imply a less subtle grind than the polished version. They have a lot in common, and I didn't keep the Toyama long enough to judge the way the steel performed. I wish I could give a better comparison.


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## Badgertooth (Mar 26, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> The Watanabe gyuto I have experience with had a kurouchi finish and from what I can imply a less subtle grind than the polished version. They have a lot in common, and I didn't keep the Toyama long enough to judge the way the steel performed. I wish I could give a better comparison.



If I may ask, what made you pass them on?


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## Dardeau (Mar 26, 2016)

In both cases fund raising for a mioroshi and a tendency to keep my kit small. For the first year and some the restaurant was open I spent about half of my work day butchering and slicing fish. I still do a decent amount of it, but not what I was doing. I don't want to leave out on my tray (or even carry to work all the time) a 300mm yanagiba and a 210mm deba so I decided I wanted to experiment with a 270mm mioroshi.

I sold the Watanabe to fund my first mioroshi, mostly because of a frustrating incident where I tried to portion a ribeye roll with it and it felt really awkward because of the height and profile. The KU Watanabe I had was really tall, like borderline 60mm from eyeballing it. I described it a few times as a chukabocho with a tip. I try to have everything in my kit be pretty versatile and was also kind of going through a revolving door gyuto phase. 

I have been using the Uraku mioroshi for a while now and got pretty used to how it functions. I got the Toyama through a trade, mostly to try it out and was intending on keeping it until opportunity knocked in the form of an affordable Shigefusa mioroshi. Rare as hen's teeth. After that I have a custom coming through sooner than later that will maybe replace my KS. Once I get that straightened out I will probably contact Sin about hooking it up with a little shorter 270mm probably kurouchi because I really liked how that knife was ground and that the finish was really stable.


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## chinacats (Mar 26, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> I will probably contact Sin about hooking it up with a little shorter 270mm probably kurouchi because I really liked how that knife was ground and that the finish was really stable.



I absolutely love my Watanabe, but one of the first things I did with it was to refinish the cladding. Believe the kurouchi is probably the best call, though you mention the grind to be slightly different?


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## masibu (Mar 26, 2016)

im actually very curious about the 270 mioroshi now having never used one before. what else do you use it for outside of fish? do you find it particularly robust and versatile? the profile seems pretty suitable for slicing tasks


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## Dardeau (Mar 26, 2016)

I don't use it for anything outside of fish. It wouldn't be very good at anything else. It is a compromise between a yanagiba and a deba, and is suited to those tasks: filleting, portioning, and slicing raw fish.

The edge wouldn't stand up well to crust on cooked meats.


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## panda (Mar 26, 2016)

what is this custom you speak of?


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## Dardeau (Mar 26, 2016)

Hopefully something similar to a KS but a little stiffer and with some actual edge retention.


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## zoze (Mar 27, 2016)

chinacats said:


> I absolutely love my Watanabe, but one of the first things I did with it was to refinish the cladding.


Could you give some details on what you did on the cladding and with what result, please?


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## jacko9 (Mar 27, 2016)

JNS has a 20% off sale on Toyama right now for those of you sitting on the fence ;-)


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## Badgertooth (Mar 27, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> JNS has a 20% off sale on Toyama right now for those of you sitting on the fence ;-)



Is there a code because prices look the same as two days ago 2000DKR without tax for a 240mm gyuto?


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## jacko9 (Mar 27, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> Is there a code because prices look the same as two days ago 2000DKR without tax for a 240mm gyuto?



The code is "Toyama" which knife are you looking at?


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 27, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> Is there a code because prices look the same as two days ago 2000DKR without tax for a 240mm gyuto?



Coupon Code: Toyama


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## skewed (Mar 27, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> Is there a code because prices look the same as two days ago 2000DKR without tax for a 240mm gyuto?



coupon code: Toyama

wow- I was way slow


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 27, 2016)

Wow looks like we all replied at about the same time


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## skewed (Mar 27, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Wow looks like we all replied at about the same time



Nice that people around here are so ready to help others.

That was pretty cool though.


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## jacko9 (Mar 27, 2016)

While this thread is about comparing the Toyama vs the Watanabe - and since these two makers produce very similar products can anybody tell me how either of these gyuto's compare to the same size Shig or Kato?

The 240 Toyama Damascus is available at 20% off is that a good value compared to the Shig or Kato Kasumi knife at the same price point?

Any and all help is appreciated,

Jack


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## Badgertooth (Mar 27, 2016)

These are incredible value. It's been noted by other forum users that at full price these are undervalued. Thanks for the heads up guys. That was a cool moment.


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## Matus (Mar 27, 2016)

That damascus toyama is really tempting  , but my wife and bank account both said 'no' :O


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## youkinorn (Mar 27, 2016)

Grabbed a 210 kasumi gyuto (think it was the last one). Excited to check it out.


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## patraleigh (Mar 27, 2016)

Thanks you gentlemen for all INFO.


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## jacko9 (Mar 27, 2016)

youkinorn said:


> Grabbed a 210 kasumi gyuto (think it was the last one). Excited to check it out.



I would have grabbed that one also but, unfortunately I slept in too late today ;-(


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## youkinorn (Mar 27, 2016)

If it doesn't work out for me, I'll let you know.


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## jacko9 (Mar 27, 2016)

youkinorn said:


> If it doesn't work out for me, I'll let you know.



I'll be interested if I don't grab that 240 Damascus today.


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## KimBronnum (Mar 27, 2016)

Jacko: the Toyamas are (feels) very different from Shigs and Katos. T is tall and feels like a big knife in hand. Esp. the Shige feels very different. The T is super steady and has a great weight for push cutting vegetables. Reminds me more of my 270 Shige. Im unsure of its weight right now but I think it feels much more substantiel than a similar Shige. I own a 210 Kato - a 240 may feel much bigger in hand and be more like the T? 
- Kim


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## jacko9 (Mar 27, 2016)

KimBronnum said:


> Jacko: the Toyamas are (feels) very different from Shigs and Katos. T is tall and feels like a big knife in hand. Esp. the Shige feels very different. The T is super steady and has a great weight for push cutting vegetables. Reminds me more of my 270 Shige. Im unsure of its weight right now but I think it feels much more substantiel than a similar Shige. I own a 210 Kato - a 240 may feel much bigger in hand and be more like the T?
> 
> - Kim



Thanks Kim,  The Toyamas do look very tall and perhaps I should look for a 210 since I already have a Teruyasu Fujiwara 240 Nashiji that fits my needs for a large knife and still in my block is an old 300mm Western chefs knife made from carbon steel that is quite tall itself.

I have a short 210 in the Konosuke Fujiyama and that is good for some jobs but a taller one might go side by side with that one very well. I like the looks of the Toyama but, I just wasn't in the market for the higher priced Damascus version.

Thanks for your feedback,

Jack


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## labor of love (Mar 27, 2016)

Shig and Toyama have nicer profiles IMO. Shig steel is the best but all 3 have really good
Core steel honestly. Toyama is pretty much the best "heavy duty" knife money can buy while kato needs a delicate touch and shig ootb grind could use some tweaking. As far as value goes I think
The performance Toyama offers is unmatched for the most
part while the kind of performance shig offers could be had by other knives but for less $$$. I'm not a fan of kato as a daily knife but it is a fun unique knife to use on occasion.


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## jacko9 (Mar 27, 2016)

Anybody have any thoughts about the Toyama Kasumi vs Damascus, is the value there for a multiple layer clad knife?


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 27, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Anybody have any thoughts about the Toyama Kasumi vs Damascus, is the value there for a multiple layer clad knife?



Aesthetics aside, the cladding may also be less reactive depending on what the layers are.

I asked Watanabe about the benefits of honyaki vs Damascus (kintaro-ame) some time ago and here is the quote:


> OK, I explain these advantages.
> Honyaki knife is a solid steel.
> 1. There is not a laminated line. The bevel is more smooth than laminated blade.
> 2. All steel. If you bend the blade, it keeps the shape. Because steel is harder than wrought iron.
> ...


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## brainsausage (Mar 27, 2016)

labor of love said:


> Shig and Toyama have nicer profiles IMO. Shig steel is the best but all 3 have really good
> Core steel honestly. Toyama is pretty much the best "heavy duty" knife money can buy while kato needs a delicate touch and shig ootb grind could use some tweaking. As far as value goes I think
> The performance Toyama offers is unmatched for the most
> part while the kind of performance shig offers could be had by other knives but for less $$$. I'm not a fan of kato as a daily knife but it is a fun unique knife to use on occasion.



Could not agree more. Toyama is possibly the best deal out there right now for an all around Gyuto. Kinda pissed I couldn't take advantage of Maxim's sale. Really interested in checking out some Toyama single bevel action.


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## turbochef422 (Mar 27, 2016)

I picked up the Toyama sujihiki it looks pretty perfect for what I was looking for from the pics. Can't wait to get it and break it in. But I was definitely bummed the 240 gyuto was out of stock.


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## brainsausage (Mar 27, 2016)

turbochef422 said:


> I picked up the Toyama sujihiki it looks pretty perfect for what I was looking for from the pics. Can't wait to get it and break it in. But I was definitely bummed the 240 gyuto was out of stock.



Same here. I love my 270, but it's more knife than I need most times.


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## mikedtran (Mar 27, 2016)

turbochef422 said:


> I picked up the Toyama sujihiki it looks pretty perfect for what I was looking for from the pics. Can't wait to get it and break it in. But I was definitely bummed the 240 gyuto was out of stock.



I was eyeing that Suji also! Good taste =)


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## Fillmoreslimm (Mar 27, 2016)

Looks like I was able to grab the last Toyama Damascus 240 Gyuto........ Looking forward to trying this in comparison to my 240 Watanabe pro.


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## brainsausage (Mar 27, 2016)

Fillmoreslimm said:


> Looks like I was able to grab the last Toyama Damascus 240 Gyuto........ Looking forward to trying this in comparison to my 240 Watanabe pro.



I almost bit on that, until I remebered the upcoming Billip, and the many other dangling knife related threads I'm currently entangled in. Somebody lend this guy a 240 Toyama so we can get a side by side by side going on!


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## jacko9 (Mar 27, 2016)

Fillmoreslimm said:


> Looks like I was able to grab the last Toyama Damascus 240 Gyuto........ Looking forward to trying this in comparison to my 240 Watanabe pro.



Thank you - you just saved me a lot of money ;-)


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## jimbob (Mar 28, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Could not agree more. Toyama is possibly the best deal out there right now for an all around Gyuto. Kinda pissed I couldn't take advantage of Maxim's sale. Really interested in checking out some Toyama single bevel action.



Have a 180 deba and can't fault it. Damn near perfect ura, even shinogi blah blah. Haven't sharpened yet though. Just got the muki as well!


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## Badgertooth (Mar 28, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Same here. I love my 270, but it's more knife than I need most times.



Let's see just how much knife 270mm of Toyama is. I do actually feel a little like I've let Shinichi down or cheated on him but he'll always have my custom.


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## masibu (Mar 28, 2016)

i used to much prefer 270 blades but i lean nore towards 240 lengths purely because i just dont feel like I have that much prep space anymore. it also happens to be a length most people are happy using making it easier for me to sell off knives I don't particularly feel suit me.


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 28, 2016)

For those who missed out, it looks like Maksim has added some more Toyama kasumi knives 210&240 gyuto, 270 Suji back in stock and discount still works


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## mikedtran (Mar 28, 2016)

tjangula said:


> For those who missed out, it looks like Maksim has added some more Toyama kasumi knives 210&240 gyuto, 270 Suji back in stock and discount still works



Soooo so tempted...


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## DamageInc (Mar 28, 2016)

Just snagged a 210. Thanks tjangula.


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## brainsausage (Mar 28, 2016)

Somebody snapped up the damn 240 while I was putting in my order info&#128532;


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## DamageInc (Mar 28, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Somebody snapped up the damn 240 while I was putting in my order info&#128532;



I have all my data logged on jns. I just have to click "next" twice and choose payment method.

Makes it so much easier to put an order in after a newsletter being sent out. I might even say that autofill is the reason I have three Katos....


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 28, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> I have all my data logged on jns. I just have to click "next" twice and choose payment method.
> 
> Makes it so much easier to put an order in after a newsletter being sent out. I might even say that autofill is the reason I have three Katos....



+1

Use my default billing and shipping addresses at JNS (I have DHL hold for pickup anyways so no worries). Makes everything much faster


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## brainsausage (Mar 28, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> I have all my data logged on jns. I just have to click "next" twice and choose payment method.
> 
> Makes it so much easier to put an order in after a newsletter being sent out. I might even say that autofill is the reason I have three Katos....


 
Yeah, I have an account, I just entered the discount code incorrectly, and in the time it took to refresh my screen I received an error message that it was now out of stock. Oh well.


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## jacko9 (Mar 28, 2016)

I followed his site all day yesterday to see if he was going to add to his offerings - I guess I was not patient enough ;-(

I have entered all of my information on his site so you just put something into your cart and click next twice?


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## DamageInc (Mar 28, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> I followed his site all day yesterday to see if he was going to add to his offerings - I guess I was not patient enough ;-(
> 
> I have entered all of my information on his site so you just put something into your cart and click next twice?



I didn't mean it literally. I have a jns account, so all I have to do is choose my shipping and billing address, the method of payment, check off the agree to conditions box, and then click confirm order. I can get an order through in 15 seconds. If I choose payment via bank transfer, I don't have to spend time finding and punching in credit card info. The order goes through immediately.

This is very important stuff if you want to get your hands on the fast moving items. It also helps having push notifications that set off an alarm on your phone when you get newsletters from JNS.


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## jacko9 (Mar 28, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> I didn't mean it literally. I have a jns account, so all I have to do is choose my shipping and billing address, the method of payment, check off the agree to conditions box, and then click confirm order. I can get an order through in 15 seconds. If I choose payment via bank transfer, I don't have to spend time finding and punching in credit card info. The order goes through immediately.
> 
> This is very important stuff if you want to get your hands on the fast moving items. It also helps having push notifications that set off an alarm on your phone when you get newsletters from JNS.



Thanks for the info - Is Paypal with a link to your credit card a fast payment? I think having my information already registered on his site should help.

Jack


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 28, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Thanks for the info - Is Paypal with a link to your credit card a fast payment? I think having my information already registered on his site should help.
> 
> Jack



I'd recommend keeping a PayPal balance as it'd probably be quicker and require less time for verification when seconds literally matter


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## jacko9 (Mar 28, 2016)

tjangula said:


> I'd recommend keeping a PayPal balance as it'd probably be quicker and require less time for verification when seconds literally matter



I'll have to read up on that since I have only used Paypal three times.


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## masibu (Mar 28, 2016)

thanks for the heads up. now ive accidentally ordered the last 270 suji


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## brainsausage (Mar 28, 2016)

tjangula said:


> I'd recommend keeping a PayPal balance as it'd probably be quicker and require less time for verification when seconds literally matter



Doesn't matter if you have funds in your PayPal account. I've bought stuff through PayPal when I didn't even have enough funds in my bank account to cover it, knowing that the transaction wouldn't clear for a day or two.


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 28, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Doesn't matter if you have funds in your PayPal account. I've bought stuff through PayPal when I didn't even have enough funds in my bank account to cover it, knowing that the transaction wouldn't clear for a day or two.



That's good to know, I've been screwed over by the dreaded "eCheck" and had to wait about 3 weeks before a merchant would ship, meanwhile PayPal is sitting on my $ after a being withdrawn after only a couple days. Sometimes it shows as "instant trnsfer" so I'm not sure why it varies from time to time.


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## youkinorn (Apr 4, 2016)

Just got my 210 kasumi gyuto and thought I'd post a few quick photos. It is a really beautiful blade, and came nicely sharpened out of the box. There is a small blemish on the tip, but nothing that will be around for more than a sharpening or two. I've only cut a few little eggplant with it, but I already know it's going to perform super well. Thing wants to cut. Shipping from Maxim was flawless, as usual. 

I'll shoot some better photos and video later, but here are a few iphone photos:


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## aboynamedsuita (Apr 4, 2016)

My 300 Suji arrived today as well 

No time for pics tonight but it looks great! Nice Kasumi finish and polished hagane, straight spine and kensaki tip which is a cool touch for a Suji. Looks very similar to my Watanabe Pro Honyaki 270 sujihiki aside from the obvious differences in size and construction.

The handle has "the smell",not sure if this is related to the "antibacterial" h&#333; handles I've seen on some knives or whatnot, but I plan on switching for an octagonal I took off my sakimaru takobiki so no big deal


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## wbusby1 (May 23, 2016)

I am wondering about Toyama vs Watanabe grind symmetry. Since they are master/apprentice and their knives are so similar and even the boxes they come in are the same(!) it's curious that my Toyama 240 gyuto seems to be very slightly righty-bias and that the few choil shots (for whatever they're good for...) on KKF seem to be also very slightly righty as well and I haven't seen a Watanabe double-bevel in person but I asked Sin about it and he said he shoots for perfectly symmetric. I am mainly curious about their comparative gyutos but I know for a fact that Toyama's suji's are strongly righty, are Watanabe's as well?


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## labor of love (May 23, 2016)

wbusby1 said:


> I am wondering about Toyama vs Watanabe grind symmetry. Since they are master/apprentice and their knives are so similar and even the boxes they come in are the same(!) it's curious that my Toyama 240 gyuto seems to be very slightly righty-bias and that the few choil shots (for whatever they're good for...) on KKF seem to be also very slightly righty as well and I haven't seen a Watanabe double-bevel in person but I asked Sin about it and he said he shoots for perfectly symmetric. I am mainly curious about their comparative gyutos but I know for a fact that Toyama's suji's are strongly righty, are Watanabe's as well?


I wish I could help you here. I've owned 2 wats and 1 Toyama. Even though I'm a lefty I really can't remember how asymmetric any of them were. I have a wat KU Gyuto at the moment that wasn't to asymmetric ootb and I've pretty much got it to a 50/50 grind on my own with out too much trouble. Wat bevels appear taller from what I can tell but Toyama might be thinner right behind the edge ootb. Maybe.


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

I'll get you a 210mm suji choil when I get home


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## labor of love (May 23, 2016)

labor of love said:


> I wish I could help you here. I've owned 2 wats and 1 Toyama. Even though I'm a lefty I really can't remember how asymmetric any of them were. I have a wat KU Gyuto at the moment that wasn't to asymmetric ootb and I've pretty much got it to a 50/50 grind on my own with out too much trouble. Wat bevels appear taller from what I can tell but Toyama might be thinner right behind the edge ootb. Maybe.


Watanabe Kasumi may have a diff grind from KU versions also. Maybe not though.


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## chinacats (May 23, 2016)

My Watanabe was roughly 70/30 when new (still is).


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

210 suji sharpened once.


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

Let me try again, that uploaded fuzzy


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)




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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

Still a little fuzzy, but the best an iPhone offers.

210mm Watanabe Suji, pro line, kasumi finish


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## Matus (May 23, 2016)

Is that a lefty one? It would appear that the right face is flatter than the left one. It reminds me of how the Itinomonn (kurouchi) may friend has is ground. He is wondering whether his knife is for lefties (he is not, but the knife works well for him)


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

I think that might just be the photo, it feels more 50/50.


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## chinacats (May 23, 2016)

Looks about 70/30 righty to me...big convex on right, left rather flat...I'll up a gyuto shot later...being a bit taller may be easier to see.


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## daveb (May 23, 2016)

Would I have to describe it or can I just order the "Dardeau"?


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 23, 2016)

daveb said:


> Would I have to describe it or can I just order the "Dardeau"?



Would you like fries with that?


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

I just ordered a stock knife. It's a winner for sure


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## chinacats (May 23, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> I just ordered a stock knife. It's a winner for sure



+1 and making me consider a Watanabe suji...looks sweet!


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

You should, they're a lot of fun. I've only got about a week of actual work with this one, I haven't made a saya yet and the cladding didn't like a cardboard sleeve or a plastic edge guard. I'm going to get one of those felt jobs off amazon to get me through till I get a saya made.


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## labor of love (May 23, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> You should, they're a lot of fun. I've only got about a week of actual work with this one, I haven't made a saya yet and the cladding didn't like a cardboard sleeve or a plastic edge guard. I'm going to get one of those felt jobs off amazon to get me through till I get a saya made.


The reactivity is really low on my wat. King 800 finish makes a huge difference. Other guys on the line use my wat and they have no clue how to care for or maintain carbon. the reactivity is very calm all things considered.


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## panda (May 23, 2016)

Extra gravy on the side


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

Actually using it it was not reactive once I got a quick vinegar etch, but I'd put it into a cardboard sleeve totally dry and the trapped humidity would have it rusty by the next day. I just ordered the Dexter felt jobs from Amazon, they'll be here Wednesday, and the Wat will be back at work.


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## daveb (May 23, 2016)

You prob know this but if the felt gets any moisture at all in it or around it then it will make plastic rust. Don't ask me how I know....


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## Dardeau (May 23, 2016)

I'm really just going to use it until I quit being lazy and carve a saya. The summer humidity is really starting to kick in, I'm having to get real anal about oiling my fish knives since they aren't getting used every day.


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## panda (May 23, 2016)

Those are the only guards I like, don't care for sayas.


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## labor of love (May 24, 2016)

panda said:


> Those are the only guards I like, don't care for sayas.



Sayas allow carbon knives room to breathe. Stop being a weirdo!


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## daveb (May 24, 2016)

Without sayas, how would you lose saya pins?


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## panda (May 24, 2016)

Might as well tell a zebra not to have stripes.


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## malexthekid (May 24, 2016)

daveb said:


> Without sayas, how would you lose saya pins?



This


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## aboynamedsuita (May 24, 2016)

daveb said:


> Without sayas, how would you lose saya pins?



Why not get a friction fit saya like below:






Also since this is a thread about Watanabe, it's only fitting that the knife is a custom Watanabe honyaki blue2 gyuto. The uchigomori really helps put the hazy finish on the jigane, before it was all a mirror that only the correct angle and lighting would give the slightest sense of a Hamon


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## labor of love (May 25, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Why not get a friction fit saya like below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, that's a much improved tip than the stock watanabes I'm used to.


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## Asteger (May 25, 2016)

labor of love said:


> Man, that's a much improved tip than the stock watanabes I'm used to.



Haven't read above, but isn't this the standard profile at the tip? Curious, as I've chipped and fixed mine slightly, but this looks normal to me for Ws.

About friction fit - maybe worth a new thread, but I wonder how they do over time as the blade shrinks. The logical thing is to expect Saya to become too big, but I wonder if there's some wisdom in them and someone might tell us about where the sayas kind of adapt and still fit, etc. Probable hopeful thinking, though, and I haven't shrunk any of my fit-saya knives enough to test the idea. My instinct is to stay with pin/peg sayas (whatever the word) and just keep a couple of spares around as I do. 

Forget the source, but spare ebony pin/pegs (note above, too tired to remember word) are sometimes order-able from Japan. Would be a very niche, possible product to make more accessible to knife-types abroad in the future. Careful, though, as oversize pin/pegs can crack the saya grain.


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## Mucho Bocho (May 25, 2016)

Just wanted to make mention, I picked up a 150 Toyoma Kasumi a few weeks ago and I can't put that thing down. The Maxim knows knives. The HT is spectacular, holds a long edge, sharpens easily and grind cuts cleanly. Its stiff, like >3mm spine at handle with wicked taper. the profile is effectively small gyuto, it even had a nice flat spot. The knife isn't finished that well but HT, grind and profile are super. sorry to go off topic, just wanted to put that out there.


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## DamageInc (May 26, 2016)

Btw, if anyone wants to buy a Toyama, they are at 15% right now with the coupon code "towel" at JNS. Expires in around 18 hours I think.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 26, 2016)

I wish Maksim had left handed Toyama kiritsuke available. I saw the lefty Yanagi but don't think I could justify yet another Yanagi however a kiritsuke would be cool :cool2:


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## DamageInc (May 28, 2016)

There is a lefty 180mm mukimono though. Small kiritsuke....


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## aboynamedsuita (May 28, 2016)

I remember seeing that come back in stock, maybe if I didn't have the right hand 135 I'd consider another mukimono. I use it to peel stuff and cut towards me so the wrong-handedness actually works out. For a kiritsuke I'd want around 240-270


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## wbusby1 (Jun 10, 2016)

Just picked up a watanabe 240 ku, its at least 1.5x the mass of my toyama 240 kasumi. Still just as thin behind the edge but a lot thicker everywhere else.


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## Pirendeus (Jun 10, 2016)

Can you measure the mass of each? Have either been rehandled or customized, which might affect the weight?


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## labor of love (Jun 10, 2016)

wbusby1 said:


> Just picked up a watanabe 240 ku, its at least 1.5x the mass of my toyama 240 kasumi. Still just as thin behind the edge but a lot thicker everywhere else.



Damn really? Can you weigh them both?


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## Matus (Jun 10, 2016)

What I would be curios about is how would the Toyama compare to Gesshin Hide Blue #2 in 240 mm size


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## Matus (Jul 3, 2016)

I would only add that according to the JNS the 240 Toyama weights 250g. I just have a Watanabe 240 on loan and it weights 235g. I am very impressed by the knife even though the height at the heel is a bit too much for me at 55mm. And even though the owner says otherwise I would be able to believe that the cladding is stainless. After some use the core steel is getting some patina, but the cladding got none (the kinfe arrived in a condition that I would describe 'as new' - someone knows how to maintain a knife).


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## F-Flash (Jul 3, 2016)

My toyama 240mm weights 228g, 55.5mm tall, 245mm long. With burnt chestnut handle (which is big). Don't think it's lost metal more than 2g max.


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## Karnstein (Jul 3, 2016)

Matus said:


> I would only add that according to the JNS the 240 Toyama weights 250g. I just have a Watanabe 240 on loan and it weights 235g. I am very impressed by the knife even though the height at the heel is a bit too much for me at 55mm. And even though the owner says otherwise I would be able to believe that the cladding is stainless. After some use the core steel is getting some patina, but the cladding got none (the kinfe arrived in a condition that I would describe 'as new' - someone knows how to maintain a knife).



The 240 Toyama I once owned had a weight of 218g according to my crappy TCM digital kitchen scale:






When Maksim replaced the faulty handle it came with, he also gifted me a spare octagonal chestnut one... 











So subtracting the weight of the handle and taking into account that Maksim may or may have not shaved some weight off it through widening the hole, I would guess that the blade itself had a weight of ~180g.


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## Ruso (Jul 3, 2016)

My 240 Toyama wights 245gr with stock handle. 239mm edge length and 55mm at the heel.


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## labor of love (Jul 3, 2016)

I'll definitely request a lighter Toyama once maxim gets back from vacation. 230ish grams feels a lot better in hand to me than 250grams.


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## brainsausage (Jul 3, 2016)

labor of love said:


> I'll definitely request a lighter Toyama once maxim gets back from vacation. 230ish grams feels a lot better in hand to me than 250grams.



interesting, I definitely veer towards heavier is betterer myself...


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