# VMatter knives



## Larrin (Nov 13, 2013)

I came across these knives randomly when listeningnto a technology podcast: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vmatter-cutlery-kitchen-knives

I was going to do a writeup on liquidmetal and the metallurgy (or lack thereof) being advertised, but I lost the motivationto do so.


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## Frater_Decus (Nov 13, 2013)

Too bad that website is layed out like a Made For TV special mashed up with a tabloid. Interesting concept, but I'm wary of such hype.


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## WillC (Nov 13, 2013)

So its a cast knife cast in high alloy steel? Surely thats nothing particularly new.


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## TB_London (Nov 13, 2013)

Got discussed in the UK last month with a few links to relevant reading

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?173091-New-type-of-metal


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## Larrin (Nov 13, 2013)

TB_London said:


> Got discussed in the UK last month with a few links to relevant reading
> 
> http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?173091-New-type-of-metal


I agree with those in the thread that all indications point to vitreloy.


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## jared08 (Nov 13, 2013)

Someone in a better financial position than I should grab one of these. Im very skeptical but after reading a few links about it, im also dying to know more about it from someones mouth that isnt getting paid to tell me something.


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## ecchef (Nov 13, 2013)

If I buy this, will my knife skill become as good as "Executive Chef" Debra Sims's?

It's also comforting to know that when I drop my knife, it'll just bounce right back up into my hand! :bigeek:


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## gic (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm tempted to get the chefs knife and then do a pass around as a way to give back to the forums. But Larrin I wonder if you could comment on the following conjectures based on your knowledge if amorphous metal technology?

Is this simply a knife that will end up being 70+ on the HRC scale- i.e. harder then anything except for a ceramic knife? Also, regardless of what they say about never needing sharpening, would one be able to sharpen/hone the edge with diamond plates/spray etc. without somehow ruining the crystal structure? (I don't believe for a minute their initial edge would satisfy us!)


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## ChuckTheButcher (Nov 13, 2013)

ecchef said:


> If I buy this, will my knife skill become as good as "Executive Chef" Debra Sims's?
> 
> It's also comforting to know that when I drop my knife, it'll just bounce right back up into my hand! :bigeek:



Yeah that knife didn't seem that sharp in that test and her knife skills are god awful. I wouldn't say it was falling threw the cucumber. I'm always wary of someone who refers to them selves a an executive chef. Also I'm pretty sure I could take any one of my knives, cut up a few card board boxes, then cut through a tube of toothpaste. Did you notice the spider graph has a section for food taste. I'm very curious how they came up with that.


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## Mrmnms (Nov 13, 2013)

WillC said:


> So its a cast knife cast in high alloy steel? Surely thats nothing particularly new.



No steel at all. I suspect it is very hard, and somewhat brittle. There were discussions of liquid metal technology that compared it more to ceramic than steel. They were not very enthused.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Nov 13, 2013)

You guys will have to ditch your stones after you get your knife. Forever sharp is coming. Kind of like forever young...


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## Larrin (Nov 13, 2013)

gic said:


> I'm tempted to get the chefs knife and then do a pass around as a way to give back to the forums. But Larrin I wonder if you could comment on the following conjectures based on your knowledge if amorphous metal technology?
> 
> Is this simply a knife that will end up being 70+ on the HRC scale- i.e. harder then anything except for a ceramic knife? Also, regardless of what they say about never needing sharpening, would one be able to sharpen/hone the edge with diamond plates/spray etc. without somehow ruining the crystal structure? (I don't believe for a minute their initial edge would satisfy us!)


Actually if it was in the mid 50's it would be quite hard for these types of materials. It's likely not even that hard. I don't know of any reason why it couldn't be sharpened.


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## gic (Nov 13, 2013)

Now i am really confused: mid 50's is basic german soft steel numbers, how could anything that hard keep an edge?

What's the point of a material that is about as hard as X50CrMo15??

So I guess what is the point of this material??


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## Larrin (Nov 13, 2013)

gic said:


> Now i am really confused: mid 50's is basic german soft steel numbers, how could anything that hard keep an edge?
> 
> What's the point of a material that is about as hard as X50CrMo15??
> 
> So I guess what is the point of this material??


As far as I can tell the advantage is marketing and injection molding. It's not all that abrasion resistant either (compared to steel and ceramic) so I'm not sure what would cause it to hold an edge forever.


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## mr drinky (Nov 14, 2013)

ecchef said:


> It's also comforting to know that when I drop my knife, it'll just bounce right back up into my hand! :bigeek:



It's not going to bounce into your hand, it is going to bounce into your sac. Just saying. 

k.


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## Flyingpigg (Nov 14, 2013)

Their executive chef's knife skills were lackluster. I don't know if it was the pressure of the camera because she seemed pretty nervous, but for her to take that long to cut those slices of cucumber and not get them perfectly doesn't help convince me that she's a reliable source for knives and knife skill. 

I'm might be pessimistic, but I don't see how 100k is enough to compensate the cost of the two years of research at Cal Tech and five years of globetrotting (their words). If you got lucky, I can see some company funding the research for the alloy, but most companies would have abandoned the project if a use for it wasn't determined after two years so I don't see someone getting funding for an additional five years of travels. I'm also not a fan of people who repeatedly say their research or product is revolutionary since I feel that revolutionary is a descriptor given by the beneficiary of the product, not the product's developer. This isn't to say that a developer shouldn't be excited about their product, but there's a fine line between optimism and bravado. 

I can't really decide if I like the profile of the knife or not. At first glance, it seemed awful to me with the tip raised that high, but then I noticed that it had a very flat spot after the steep curve. I feel like it might nice to use the steep curve for rock chopping and the flat spot for push cuts so it kind of combines both style of cutting with its profile. However, the flat spot might be a little too flat, although I don't think I can make a proper evaluation of its profile until I hold the knife in my hand and work with it.


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## ecchef (Nov 14, 2013)

mr drinky said:


> It's not going to bounce into your hand, it is going to bounce into your sac. Just saying.
> 
> k.



:crying: That would ruin my day. Pretty much.


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## JohnnyChance (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't care what it's made out of, if the geometry and profile are crap, what's the point? Doesn't look like they put any development or research into either of these areas.


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## erikz (Nov 14, 2013)

I wouldn't buy this even if this 'metal' was any good. These knives are some ugly @$%@$.


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## menzaremba (Nov 14, 2013)

This is everything that I hate about knife marketing, deceptive "scientific" mumbo-jumbo peppered with wild claims. 

They didn't pay to develop this material, it's just this: 
http://liquidmetal.com/
They have some discussion about knife construction here: 
http://info.liquidmetal.com/blog/bid/289868/Liquidmetal-Blades-Knives-and-Other-Sharp-Things

Also, is it just me, or does that women cut things like a nervous 12 year old.


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## XooMG (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't think I have any interest in the products being advertised.

I once made a video of myself cutting to get a look at how my knives were cutting from a different angle and how poor my technique was, and I was going to ask for advice; but I'm actually rather glad I didn't, since I was worried about being ridiculed. Perhaps the commentary is just a reaction to hype and terms like "executive chef" but it's a bit discouraging to a relative novice like me who cuts a bit "like a nervous 12 year old".


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## Timthebeaver (Nov 14, 2013)

"Nano-sharpness" - LMFAO, what a crock of ****

Also, profile/handle/design is a total rip-off of these.

http://www.zwillingonline.com/33905160.html


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## quantumcloud509 (Nov 14, 2013)

Gross. Icky. Yucky. Blah.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Nov 14, 2013)

While I can understand why many KKF users doesn't care about those knives, but are they really that bad? Are there anybody who actually tried them? 

Am I right assuming they don't grind or sharpen those knives at all? If I understood correctly, the hardest thing is to create highly accurate molding form. After that they just fill it with liquid metal and get an almost complete knife (without handle). At least in theory it sounds interesting. If those knives could survive a few years of home abuse without need of sharpening, then I'll surely order them for my parents.


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## Larrin (Nov 14, 2013)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> While I can understand why many KKF users doesn't care about those knives, but are they really that bad? Are there anybody who actually tried them?
> 
> Am I right assuming they don't grind or sharpen those knives at all? If I understood correctly, the hardest thing is to create highly accurate molding form. After that they just fill it with liquid metal and get an almost complete knife (without handle). At least in theory it sounds interesting. If those knives could survive a few years of home abuse without need of sharpening, then I'll surely order them for my parents.


They can't have molds that end up with a sharpened edge. There is sharpening done on the final knives. As far as never needing sharpening. That's the very question here. Are they just marketing? Or is there some reason why they would never dull? As far as I can tell there's no reason why they wouldn't dull.


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## Larrin (Nov 14, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> "Nano-sharpness" - LMFAO, what a crock of ****
> 
> Also, profile/handle/design is a total rip-off of these.
> 
> http://www.zwillingonline.com/33905160.html


There's certainly nothing new about the design/profile.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Nov 14, 2013)

Larrin said:


> They can't have molds that end up with a sharpened edge. There is sharpening done on the final knives.


Why can't they have molds good enough to make sharp edges? In theory it seems to be possible


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## Larrin (Nov 14, 2013)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Why can't they have molds good enough to make sharp edges? In theory it seems to be possible


Here is an article about injection molding for an edge that is already sharp: http://info.liquidmetal.com/blog/bid/289868/Liquidmetal-Blades-Knives-and-Other-Sharp-Things

While they state that their unsharpened edge is "only an order of magnitude lower" than a sharp edge, I'm not convinced that it would be so easy. Half a micron is a lot smaller than 5 microns.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Nov 14, 2013)

Larrin said:


> Here is an article about injection molding for an edge that is already sharp: http://info.liquidmetal.com/blog/bid/289868/Liquidmetal-Blades-Knives-and-Other-Sharp-Things



Yep, I've read that article. That was one of the reasons why I said it should be possible in theory. They said that even unoptimized mold was only 1 order of magnitude lower, so It should be possible to create very precise mold for a sharp edge (much cost a fortune though).

Anyway, would be cool to read actual reviews of those knives from KKF members.


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## Timthebeaver (Nov 14, 2013)

Yeah, I'm sure their moulds are accurate to a nanometer. That or "nanosharpness" is pure BS.

Now let me think....:whistling:


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## Larrin (Nov 14, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> Yeah, I'm sure their moulds are accurate to a nanometer. That or "nanosharpness" is pure BS.
> 
> Now let me think....:whistling:


There's no way they're sharpening down to a 3nm edge as is shown on the indiegogo page.. They also have a micrograph of steel that doesn't look like steel. I don't know what they did to that poor steel.


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## Justin0505 (Nov 14, 2013)

This is interesting to say the least. 
The secrecy and "proprietary scientific terms" (made-up meaningless mumbo-jumbo) really hurts their credibility. The "never dull" claim is also clearly BS. If a material can be ground / abraded then it can be dulled. Claiming exceptional or long-lasting edge retention would sound much more honest / realistic than saying that it' basically the same as unobtainium or whatever it is that Wolverine's claws are made from.
Also, blatantly knocking off a Zwlining design really makes them look like a bunch of clowns when they prattle on about revolutionary innovation. But then again, at least they didn't to go full-retar...errr... Onion on the design either...

The liquidmetal website does have some slightly more tangible / quantitative info, but nothing that transfers well to how it would perform in a kitchen knife. 

My understanding of the goal of forging and HT'ing is to create a fine and even grain structure so that there is an even distribution of very hard carbides along the cutting edge. The carbides that do the cutting are much harder than the surrounding material. But according to the LM site, LM has NO grain structure as the alloying materials are mixed and randomly distributed on an atomic level. So what are the implications of that in terms of cutting performance and the type of edge that it's capable of taking holding? I can't imagine that the entire homogeneous LM mixture is as hard as the carbides in the currently cutlery steels. 

The LM site also states that LM is a class of alloyS , implying that there may be different combinations of metals that go into the mix (the history channel spot says that LM is made of steel, aluminum, and titanium) but that the resulting alloy's properties are very different from any of the components. 
[video=youtube_share;-uOPXquIMt4]http://youtu.be/-uOPXquIMt4[/video]


Also, they frequently refer to it as being more like a glass (frozen liquid) than a metal, what would this mean in terms of sharpening? Would it still for a bur? Sharpening glass or ceramic is a real PITA as you have to get the angles inhumanly perfect or use sandpaper over rubber-backing to micro-convex it. 

However, if the stuff can actually take and hold a decent edge, then this does sound like it has potential. They may not be able to cast a small enough radius to make a finished edge, but how THIN they can cast it may be more important. Also, I wonder if there are any limitations to how complex the form can be? Could they replicate an "S" grind? Getting a production knife with good geometry and consistently thin and even behind the edge seems to be beyond the current limits of automation. The VMatter knives look as thick and clunky as the German hatchets that they copied, but what if they tried to copy a Shig or DT instead?


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## Timthebeaver (Nov 14, 2013)

As I understand it, these alloys are predominantly zirconium.


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## TB_London (Nov 14, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> Yeah, I'm sure their moulds are accurate to a nanometer. That or "nanosharpness" is pure BS.
> 
> Now let me think....:whistling:




Interestingly enough amorphous metals are used for making nano moulds with accuracy down to around 10 nanometres in place of silicon due to being less fragile.

Not that I'm suggesting these BS knives do anything like that


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## TB_London (Nov 14, 2013)

Edit to add ref
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009Natur.457..868K


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## bkultra (Nov 14, 2013)

Justin0505 said:


> Claiming exceptional or long-lasting edge retention would sound much more honest / realistic than saying that it' basically the same as unobtainium or whatever it is that Wolverine's claws are made from.



Adamantium, just saying


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## Timthebeaver (Nov 14, 2013)

TB_London said:


> Edit to add ref
> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009Natur.457..868K



It's an interesting paper, thanks for that. Wonder if there has been much take-up of this tech?

However, it also suggests that moulding a blade with an edge anywhere near that level of precision is utter fantasy.


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## Timthebeaver (Nov 14, 2013)

So, I suspect "Vmatter" is just a rebranding of Liquidmetal aka LM1 aka Vitreloy.

Here's Cliff Stamp's take on it:

LM1 : main

LM1 is an amorphous (no specific crystal structure) alloy of titanium, copper, nickel, zirconium and beryllium. It can be cast to a very precise shape.

Materials information from Caltech (html version)
This document shows a very low yield strength, 220 ksi, much lower than hardened cutlery steel, and a low hardness, about 50 HRC, and fairly brittle nature. The density is also much lower than steel, 6.3 g/cm^2 vs 7.8-8.1 g.cm^3.

Knives personally used in LM1 :

Model 10 from R. W. Clark : 50 HRC
The model 10 was used for a large variety of work with the edge retention examined on hemp, cardboard, carpet and woods. In all cases it was well behind cutlery steels, even low grade ones, with the edge retention on hemp being just a fraction of a Swiss Army knife (ref) and a regular Olfa knife readily outclassed it on cardboard (ref). The durability was also very low as it chipped out consistently during wood chopping and this was a very light blade


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## bkultra (Nov 14, 2013)

It's been awhile since I herd Cliff Stamp be brought up, probably a good thing.


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## Frater_Decus (Nov 14, 2013)

Maybe they mean "never needs HONING," not "never needs sharpening," as it has no teeth.

Toothless, indeed!


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## Timthebeaver (Nov 14, 2013)

I hadn't come across him until Dave posted a video of a review of his recently, which was quite amusing.


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## menzaremba (Nov 14, 2013)

XooMG said:


> I don't think I have any interest in the products being advertised.
> 
> I once made a video of myself cutting to get a look at how my knives were cutting from a different angle and how poor my technique was, and I was going to ask for advice; but I'm actually rather glad I didn't, since I was worried about being ridiculed. Perhaps the commentary is just a reaction to hype and terms like "executive chef" but it's a bit discouraging to a relative novice like me who cuts a bit "like a nervous 12 year old".



It certainly was, and I apologize if the comment made it any less likely that you would post your video in search of genuine feedback. I do think it's fair that we hold people that call themselves "professionals" to a higher standard. There are a ton of things wrong with the language and presentation here, but not having someone skilled highlighting the blade seems like a major oversight. 

You'll get better. Keep cutting.


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## hobbitling (Nov 14, 2013)

lots of good info here. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidmetal
Apparently they tried making golf clubs out of it, but they kept shattering after about 50 swings.

looks like this is essentially a glass or ceramic like material, but made using metals. Not even close to being steel. No iron, no carbon. No defined crystal structure, so more like a glass than a ceramic. It appears to behave much like glass too. very brittle, unless they completely overcame that problem somehow.

Actually, a broken glass edge is the sharpest edge physically possible (but very fragile, of course). It tapers down to a few atoms thick if it's broken just right. They use broken glass knives to cut specimen slices for electron microscope imaging, so we're talking slices a few nanometers thick. If it can cut through a mitochondria, that's pretty damn sharp. But of course that edge won't last long at all.


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## Larrin (Nov 14, 2013)

hobbitling said:


> lots of good info here.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidmetal
> Apparently they tried making golf clubs out of it, but they kept shattering after about 50 swings.
> 
> ...


My guess is that if the 3nm edge is real it's a fracture edge which would mean nothing as far as knives go. It's just more misleading marketing.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 15, 2013)

hobbitling said:


> lots of good info here.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidmetal
> Apparently they tried making golf clubs out of it, but they kept shattering after about 50 swings.
> 
> ...



There are specialized materials for diff. cutting jobs that would not work in a kitchen knife at all.The profiles wt. the extreme upsweep tips.They should use some of that research on knife geometry.I've spent more time reading all the good links provided than the thread.If the Santoku was availible I might take a gamble,knowing full well that it might be a total waste of money.:O


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## Flyingpigg (Nov 15, 2013)

bkultra said:


> It's been awhile since I herd Cliff Stamp be brought up, probably a good thing.



Why is it a good thing? I've only seen his videos from Martell's threads, and I found his tone to be rather humorous. I have no opinion about the information that he offers, but it sounds like he's offering bad information.


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## bkultra (Nov 15, 2013)

Flyingpigg said:


> Why is it a good thing? I've only seen his videos from Martell's threads, and I found his tone to be rather humorous. I have no opinion about the information that he offers, but it sounds like he's offering bad information.



That all goes way back and to another forum. Let's say He was banned for his "passion". He had a way of thinking that he was always right even when some of his methods were obliviously flawed.


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## PhaetonFalling (Jan 28, 2014)

I met the guy who did the indiegogo campaign for this company randomly a few weeks ago. What he said about the knife is that it's not that hard, but the properties of deformation are different which is what "keeps it sharp." He said that steel knives "plastically deform" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticity_(physics) where as vmatter knives elastically deform http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics) . (Yes I had to look those up, so I just provided links for whomever was interested). I asked him to show me one of the knives and it's very very light compared to its shape, size, and geometry. It seemed OK sharp for a production knife, but it didn't seem THAT sharp.

The real downside is how poorly shaped the knife is and how small the knife is. The largest knife they make is is 8 inches, which to me seems a little small for chef's knife. They have a slicer and a santoku in the works.

Has anyone else actually used one of these knives?


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## Mitbud (Jan 28, 2014)

Justin0505 said:


> Could they replicate an "S" grind? Getting a production knife with good geometry and consistently thin and even behind the edge seems to be beyond the current limits of automation. The VMatter knives look as thick and clunky as the German hatchets that they copied, but what if they tried to copy a Shig or DT instead?



This was my first thought. High production knives with great geometry.


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## WildBoar (Jan 28, 2014)

PhaetonFalling said:


> I met the guy who did the indiegogo campaign for this company randomly a few weeks ago. What he said about the knife is that it's not that hard, but the properties of deformation are different which is what "keeps it sharp." He said that steel knives "plastically deform" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticity_(physics) where as vmatter knives elastically deform http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics) . (


sounds like he pulled some materials of properties terms and spun them to make a sales pitch that would impress people who had no background in materials science. All steels have an elastic range followed by a plastic range. How much strain an edge can take before it transitions from elastic to plastic deformation is likely dependent on the steel composition, the heat treatment and the edge geometry. You can design steel structures using methods based on the elastic properties (allowable stress design) or based on it's plastic properties (plastic design).


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## malexthekid (Jan 28, 2014)

PhaetonFalling said:


> I met the guy who did the indiegogo campaign for this company randomly a few weeks ago. What he said about the knife is that it's not that hard, but the properties of deformation are different which is what "keeps it sharp." He said that steel knives "plastically deform" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticity_(physics) where as vmatter knives elastically deform http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics) . (Yes I had to look those up, so I just provided links for whomever was interested). I asked him to show me one of the knives and it's very very light compared to its shape, size, and geometry. It seemed OK sharp for a production knife, but it didn't seem THAT sharp.
> 
> The real downside is how poorly shaped the knife is and how small the knife is. The largest knife they make is is 8 inches, which to me seems a little small for chef's knife. They have a slicer and a santoku in the works.
> 
> Has anyone else actually used one of these knives?




First post here, just getting into the whole knife scene etc. so I can't comment on this from that side, but I am an engineer in my day job so have a basic understanding of metallurgy and reasonable mechanics of materials.

Look at it from this point, my problem is this, given he talks about the metal being a lot more elastic than typical cutlery steel, I would have a guess that the level of elasticity required to prevent the blade from "dulling" after continually hitting cutting boards etc. would potentially mean that it is too elastic to cut through tougher vegetables etc. 

If as they describe it the tip elastically deforms on impact with the cutting board and then "springs" back into shape afterwards would essentially mean it would potentially deform while cutting through something semi tough. So it would all come down to how elastic the metal is. And for it to be "forever sharp" if what they say is true, I would suggest it would be reasonable elastic which I would suggest would mean it would be that good for push cutting some items. It is a balancing act, for example if it was only designed for using on quite soft cutting boards, then I can see it working to a degree as it wouldn't need to be that elastic, however if they want to cover it against harder surfaces too, then it would need to be more elastic, which would then potentially mean deforming on items being cut.

But I could be totally wrong, just my logic from reading the blurb and my engineering approach at it (which in itself isn't always right).


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