# konosuke zdp189 gyuto



## bob (May 20, 2011)

This is interesting. I recall reading something about zdp189 being a new super steel. 

http://www.**************.com/ko24gyzd.html

Would you buy this for 700? 

At this price, fit and finish becomes quite important for me and from the picture on CKTG, I can't say I'm very overly impressed. On the other hand I know next to nothing about the steel. Presumably, its made in the typical thin konosuke geometry, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Would anyone be kind enough to buy one and post their thoughts?


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## rockbox (May 20, 2011)

I don't know about supersteel and that's quite a premium for ZDP-189 considering the old Zwilling Miyabis where made with ZDP-189 and it only cost 200 dollars. ZDP-189 is similar to Cowry-X and SG2 in composition so you are going to get very good where wear resistance but it can be chippy if it is hardened too high.


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## rockbox (May 20, 2011)

9.5" miyabi 7000MC are selling for 179 bucks now. I might pick one up and try to rehandle it.


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## bob (May 20, 2011)

Thats awesome. You're a self-enabler, and I had nothing to do with it.


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## spinblue (May 20, 2011)

that's a lot of cabbage.


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## 99Limited (May 20, 2011)

I think Konosuke has surpassed the point of diminishing returns with that knife. Their white #2 or HD line gives you maximum cutting and edge retention for about 1/3 the price.


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## Rottman (May 20, 2011)

The Miyabis are clad, the Konosuke is a monosteel knife. The only other place I've seen ZDP monosteel was as an option with Suisin dreamcraft and those who asked for a quote got 4 digit answers.


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## rockbox (May 20, 2011)

Rottman said:


> The Miyabis are clad, the Konosuke is a monosteel knife. The only other place I've seen ZDP monosteel was as an option with Suisin dreamcraft and those who asked for a quote got 4 digit answers.



That is interesting but now I wonder about the heat treat. One of you freaks needs to buy one and report back.


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## Eamon Burke (May 20, 2011)

bob said:


> I had nothing to do with it.


 
The battle cry of enablers everywhere! :razz::razz:


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## Rottman (May 20, 2011)

The Konosuke ZDP monosteel was offered on some Canadian site a few months ago and they had a $ 1000 + price tag on it and stated something like HRC 68 for the first knife but noted that the smith would take the following production 1-2 points down...


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## tk59 (May 20, 2011)

Oh, I didn't realize it was monosteel. That's definitely sexy...


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## MadMel (May 20, 2011)

HRC 68 seems freakishly hard to me. Waiting on a review here lol.


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## mpukas (May 20, 2011)

Rottman said:


> The Miyabis are clad, the Konosuke is a monosteel knife. The only other place I've seen ZDP monosteel was as an option with Suisin dreamcraft and those who asked for a quote got 4 digit answers.


 
This was my first thought/response to people who are saying this is expensive. I too remember the link to the Canadian site where the ZDP-189 was $1K+... and hardness of 68, with the maker knocking it down a couple points, etc... 

If I'm not mistaken, this is the only stainless powdered mono-steel knife on the market... 

This is quite literally my perfect/dream knife (the 270 job) - outside of a custom BB and/or DT. My Yusuke 270 gyuto has quickly become my new favorite go-to knife - I've got no complaints with it. But as always I'm looking/thinking of something better. My dream knife would be D-wa handle (not a fan of octagon), laser, mono steel, powdered stainless and hard - 64+. The only other thing I would do differently on this Konosuke would be the handle option on CaddyJ's new 270 suji (don't care for light ho wood)... :thumbsup:

If I could do it, I would in a heartbeat and have it here tomorrow!!! Alas, it's not in the cards for me right now. :mad3: Maybe if I unloaded about 4 of my other relatively-new knives I could, but too attached to them... :scared1:


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## JohnnyChance (May 20, 2011)

Rottman said:


> The Konosuke ZDP monosteel was offered on some Canadian site a few months ago and they had a $ 1000 + price tag on it and stated something like HRC 68 for the first knife but noted that the smith would take the following production 1-2 points down...





mpukas said:


> This was my first thought/response to people who are saying this is expensive. I too remember the link to the Canadian site where the ZDP-189 was $1K+... and hardness of 68, with the maker knocking it down a couple points, etc...



Tosho Knife Arts

Looks way nicer than the CKTG version too. But I guess you could buy the CKTG version and get it rehandled for about the same price.


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## chefofthefuture (May 20, 2011)

I like the fact that they knocked down the hardness so the knife isn't prone to chipping. I'm also fairly sure that you can order any Konosuke with any handle that they offer. 

I might pick this up with my tax return...


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## JohnnyChance (May 20, 2011)

Also, the profile is different from the regular Konosuke profile. I have always disliked the looks of the Konosuke profile, like the tip is up too high and it has too much belly. The profile on my Sakai bluewayjapan gyuto is very similar and it has too much belly. But these ZDP Konosukes (The ones from CKTG, not the Tosho Knife Arts version) have a much different profile. Almost more like an Aritsugu A-type.


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## tk59 (May 20, 2011)

I think I see one of these in my future... Unfortuntaely, not the near future. Just had to pay $6k to do an unplanned shower replacement. That was not good for my knife budget...


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## JohnnyChance (May 20, 2011)

$6k is a lot of knives and stones. Couldnt you have just run a garden hose through the window?


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## rockbox (May 20, 2011)

mpukas said:


> If I'm not mistaken, this is the only stainless powdered mono-steel knife on the market...


 
Almost every knife Pierre makes fits this description and so does the Richmond Remedy.


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## rockbox (May 20, 2011)

You can't compare Canadian prices and US prices. Everything costs more in Canada.


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## mpukas (May 20, 2011)

JohnnyChance said:


> Also, the profile is different from the regular Konosuke profile. I have always disliked the looks of the Konosuke profile, like the tip is up too high and it has too much belly. The profile on my Sakai bluewayjapan gyuto is very similar and it has too much belly. But these ZDP Konosukes (The ones from CKTG, not the Tosho Knife Arts version) have a much different profile. Almost more like an Aritsugu A-type.


 
I'm not seeing it the way you descibe - to me CKTG ZDP profile looks the same as the HD - different than pics I see of A-Type on CKTG and other sites. Hard to tell from just pics sometimes... :scratchhead:


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## JohnnyChance (May 20, 2011)

This is the profile I think of when I hear Konosuke:






This is the ZDP:





They look different to me. Like I said, I havent owned either of these. But the ZDP looks like the edge runs parallel to the spine, where the first one the edge is not and constantly angling up towards the spine. Some HD Konos I looked at appear to be more like the ZDP than the White one. Maybe it is just me.


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## tk59 (May 20, 2011)

JohnnyChance said:


> $6k is a lot of knives and stones. Couldnt you have just run a garden hose through the window?


 
That was my initial reaction. My wife thought it was a joke.


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## slowtyper (May 20, 2011)

rockbox said:


> You can't compare Canadian prices and US prices. Everything costs more in Canada.


 Generally yes but my konosuke from Tosho knife arts was cheaper than the us online shops.


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## echerub (May 20, 2011)

Tosho Knife Arts has good prices for Canadian buyers on a good portion of their selection. I checked out a few items, and in general it works out to be just a bit less than what it would cost to order from the US and ship up here. Of course, there's tax and if you're not in Toronto there's domestic shipping to add on as well.

I'm not sold on the ZDP version of the Konosuke gyuto for myself, but I'm glad the option is out there.


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## kalaeb (May 20, 2011)

65 or 68 seem painfully hard. Does any one have a knife out of ZDP, if so how difficult is something that hard to sharpen? I have always thought my limit to be in the low 60's,, but then again I am relatively new to this.


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## tk59 (May 20, 2011)

I have a cermax at 66hrc. It's no problem whatsoever to get blazing sharp.


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## watercrawl (May 20, 2011)

kalaeb said:


> 65 or 68 seem painfully hard. Does any one have a knife out of ZDP, if so how difficult is something that hard to sharpen? I have always thought my limit to be in the low 60's,, but then again I am relatively new to this.


 
I have a Spyderco ZDP189 Delica...solid ZDP189 before they started cladding them. I, in my stupider years, decided it needed thinning. I don't know what Spyderco had for a HRC on that knife, but I promise you thinning that 3.5" blade was just about the worst knife adventure I ever had. Essentially I removed the hollow grind to the blade and made it a flat bevel. Cuts like a freaking dream now and is one of two pocket knives I've kept amongst them all. But I wouldn't ever do it again. The most wear resistant steel I've ever encountered. To make a honyaki yanagi (or other single bevel knife) from ZDP189 or Cowry-X and put the HRC up over 62 would be extremely silly IMHO. In a gyuto where you're grinding a much smaller bevel, it's not bad....especially when clad like the KD's are. This knife, if you ever had to thin a lot of it....well, let's just say I'd rather not.


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## TB_London (May 20, 2011)

oooooooooo it is tempting, but realistically how much is performance going to differ from a standard konosuke?


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## rockbox (May 20, 2011)

That's what your KMG is for. 



watercrawl said:


> I have a Spyderco ZDP189 Delica...solid ZDP189 before they started cladding them. I, in my stupider years, decided it needed thinning. I don't know what Spyderco had for a HRC on that knife, but I promise you thinning that 3.5" blade was just about the worst knife adventure I ever had. Essentially I removed the hollow grind to the blade and made it a flat bevel. Cuts like a freaking dream now and is one of two pocket knives I've kept amongst them all. But I wouldn't ever do it again. The most wear resistant steel I've ever encountered. To make a honyaki yanagi (or other single bevel knife) from ZDP189 or Cowry-X and put the HRC up over 62 would be extremely silly IMHO. In a gyuto where you're grinding a much smaller bevel, it's not bad....especially when clad like the KD's are. This knife, if you ever had to thin a lot of it....well, let's just say I'd rather not.


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## tk59 (May 20, 2011)

TB_London said:


> oooooooooo it is tempting, but realistically how much is performance going to differ from a standard konosuke?


 
Which standard konosuke? It would FAR outlast either edge (stainless or whiteII) but it wouldn't keep the scream as long as the carbon. It's closer to the Kon HD but I still think it doesn't scream as long.


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## watercrawl (May 20, 2011)

rockbox said:


> That's what your KMG is for.


 
I not have KMG back then.  But yes, that would have been ideal.


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## TDj (May 20, 2011)

so, i had a henckels cermax for a while (still do - never gets used tho) - these powdered steels are crazy-annoying to sharpen [for me]. i like the fresh-off-the-stones feel, and if zdp can't give that same feeling longer than the HD, then what's the point, really?


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## Rottman (May 20, 2011)

I'm sure that besides the price of the steel the time grinding and the amount of belts/stone needed for a monosteel ZDP knife factors big time into the high end price. On that Canadian site they even mentioned the Kanji imprint not being as deep as usual due to the steel properties.


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## slowtyper (May 20, 2011)

echerub said:


> Tosho Knife Arts has good prices for Canadian buyers on a good portion of their selection. I checked out a few items, and in general it works out to be just a bit less than what it would cost to order from the US and ship up here. Of course, there's tax and if you're not in Toronto there's domestic shipping to add on as well.
> 
> I'm not sold on the ZDP version of the Konosuke gyuto for myself, but I'm glad the option is out there.


 
No tax being charged yet so..good time to buy


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## echerub (May 20, 2011)

Oh, really? Prices are tax-included? Nice!

Too bad there isn't anything I need to get from their selection at the moment. Need? Want? Ah, whichever


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## QCDawg (Mar 7, 2017)

I have a San mai sukenari Zdp. I wonder if Zdp mono "patina'd" line crazy... never seen one.


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## Jovidah (Mar 7, 2017)

Considering the 20% chromium content.... nope. Would be a pain in the ass to work with, a ***** to thin, and a whole lot more expensive.


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## supersayan3 (Mar 7, 2017)

Sukenari also had done Honyaki ZDP yanagiba


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## khashy (Mar 7, 2017)

supersayan3 said:


> Sukenari also had done Honyaki ZDP yanagiba



Where does the madness end! What kind of HRC does a honyaki zdp get?


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## QCDawg (Mar 7, 2017)

khashy said:


> Where does the madness end! What kind of HRC does a honyaki zdp get?



Maxamet, rex21, cruwear, k390.. meteors.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 7, 2017)

Differentially hardened/tempered ZDP or "just" a premium ZDP monosteel?


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## chefcomesback (Mar 7, 2017)

Differentially hardened? Zdp189 is stainless and fully hardened


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 8, 2017)

Well, while the japanese community seems to accept the honyaki label for homogenously hardened monosteels, it confuses the rest of the world  Why not just call it a "god-perished steaming ZDP189 monosteel bastard" then - I'm sure whoever has to thin it will describe it in a very similar manner.


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## richard (Mar 8, 2017)

khashy said:


> Where does the madness end! What kind of HRC does a honyaki zdp get?



Can get up to HRC66. I've not really had interest to try it; SG2/R2 is enough for me, and it may be partly willful ignorance, but I don't really know why I would want more.


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## QCDawg (Mar 8, 2017)

Jovidah said:


> Considering the 20% chromium content.... nope. Would be a pain in the ass to work with, a ***** to thin, and a whole lot more expensive.



Zdp has very high carbon. So that 20% chromium gets tied up in carbides. It's not stainless. The Zdp core in every on I have had takes on a "champagne" colored patina. And there are stories out there of it not liking acidity much (I just use different knives). So..hence my question about a honyaki Zdp and long term corrosion..


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## Jovidah (Mar 8, 2017)

QCDawg said:


> Zdp has very high carbon. So that 20% chromium gets tied up in carbides. It's not stainless. The Zdp core in every on I have had takes on a "champagne" colored patina. And there are stories out there of it not liking acidity much (I just use different knives). So..hence my question about a honyaki Zdp and long term corrosion..



Wow... did not know / expect that. I always thought anything with 15% and upwards of chromium would be proper stainless.


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## Kippington (Mar 8, 2017)

Jovidah said:


> Wow... did not know / expect that. I always thought anything with 15% and upwards of chromium would be proper stainless.



Yeah, this is why heat treating is so important.
Depending on how its heated and cooled, all that chromium can end up spread out evenly though the iron to make it 'stainless'... or it could be clumped up in concentrated nuggets leaving the iron around it suspect to rust.

Properly heat-treated ZDP-189 is stain resistant. There are no steels that are 100% stainless.


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## Jovidah (Mar 8, 2017)

Kippington said:


> There are no steels that are 100% stainless.



Not to be pedantic on the linguistics but... of course there is 100% stainless. The question is less than what, and how much less. 
But yes, you're correct in the sense that there's no 'rust-proof' or 'stain-free'. Even the German X50 stuff can start to rust and pit when you throw it in the dishwasher often enough.


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## Kippington (Mar 8, 2017)

I only state it that way because you said, 'proper stainless'.

I'm not sure where that definition lies.


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## Jovidah (Mar 8, 2017)

Kippington said:


> I only state it that way because you said, 'proper stainless'.
> 
> I'm not sure where that definition lies.


I don't think there is one? Usually it's defined by the chromium and/or nickel content. For me it's more about practical purposes. Suriving a neglected wet night on the board is proper stainless enough.


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## Kippington (Mar 8, 2017)

If you define it by the alloying content... ZDP has more than enough carbon in it to be called a cast iron! :laugh:


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## jklip13 (Mar 8, 2017)

I believe some standard in the US defines stainless as over 13% chromium, im probably wrong about the details


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## QCDawg (Mar 8, 2017)

I mean, Zdp I s pretty darn stainless. Not as stainless as R2 in my experience. Never had Hap40 but sounds similar, corrosion wise. Kono HD sounds similar too (they all patina, not R2 tho). I've never had AEB-L or VG-10 even think about a patina. But I have seen molybdenum (aus8) from misono and MAC "oxidize" (crappy patina). I'm just talking experiences with kitchen stuff from Japanese makers. If you move over to the EDC/ hunting knife world (s90-110v, m390) there is another level of discourse and attributes. Not to mention H1..


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## tienowen (Mar 8, 2017)

supersayan3 said:


> Sukenari also had done Honyaki ZDP yanagiba


Do you know how much for the price of that knife. I couldn't find any place have Sukenari ZDP Honyaki
PS: http://www.yanagiknife.com/akazawa-pm-honyaki-zdp189-yanagi-2
I only find another brand carry ZDP honyaki.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 9, 2017)

Real stainless? H1, F562 et al....  Not perfect for a kitchen tool though....

Is HAP40 not considered a semi-stainless?


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## b2kk258 (Mar 9, 2017)

bob said:


> Thats awesome. You're a self-enabler, and I had nothing to do with it.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## preizzo (Mar 10, 2017)

Never seen it on zpd, r2. 
Vg 10, ginsanko they can rust a little bit! &#128522;


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## supersayan3 (Mar 11, 2017)

tienowen said:


> Do you know how much for the price of that knife. I couldn't find any place have Sukenari ZDP Honyaki
> PS: http://www.yanagiknife.com/akazawa-pm-honyaki-zdp189-yanagi-2
> I only find another brand carry ZDP honyaki.



I had posted a video in the past, from a sushi knife store in NY if I remember correct.
I don't remember how to find it, or anything more, apart from the fact that they had rolled newspapers cutting them slices with that yanagiba, for about an hour(?), to test the edge retention, and after the hours end, yanagiba kept on cutting


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## dreamwalker (Mar 11, 2017)

supersayan3 said:


> I had posted a video in the past, from a sushi knife store in NY if I remember correct.
> I don't remember how to find it, or anything more, apart from the fact that they had rolled newspapers cutting them slices with that yanagiba, for about an hour(?), to test the edge retention, and after the hours end, yanagiba kept on cutting



[video=youtube;dB1Lf6OekEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB1Lf6OekEk[/video]


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## tienowen (Mar 13, 2017)

dreamwalker said:


> [video=youtube;dB1Lf6OekEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB1Lf6OekEk[/video]


Thank for the video, very useful information.


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## soigne_west (Mar 14, 2017)

Rottman said:


> The Konosuke ZDP monosteel was offered on some Canadian site a few months ago and they had a $ 1000 + price tag on it and stated something like HRC 68 for the first knife but noted that the smith would take the following production 1-2 points down...




So basically you saying that the first one... maybe few, tested at 67. but he estimates the batch at 64-65? I am confused now.


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