# Another Chef Suicide



## Bill13 (Feb 1, 2016)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/world/europe/benoit-violier-chef-dies.html?_r=0

Too much stress at the top.


----------



## ecchef (Feb 1, 2016)

What a bunch of (female cats). I wonder if his widow is cute...:whistling:


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Feb 1, 2016)

ecchef said:


> What a bunch of (female cats). I wonder if his widow is cute...:whistling:


----------



## TimH (Feb 1, 2016)

Very poor taste, gentlemen (and I am using that term ironically at the moment). This thread is the only thing I have seen so far that has turned me off to this community.


----------



## TimH (Feb 1, 2016)

I feel the need to expand my thoughts. You may feel that anyone who commits suicide is a *****. You are entitled to that misguided view. What you are forgetting is that many people who read this will have lost a friend or family member to suicide. Getting over such an event is a long, painful process. Getting through the guilt, anger, regret, and plain old grief associated with suicide is not easy. The posts you have made here will rip open wounds for many people who read them. I would encourage you to take them down.


----------



## pleue (Feb 1, 2016)

I'm not in that camp you speak of as I haven't lost a close friend to suicide but, I share your sentiment and thank you for sharing. I think the community here has lost folks to suicide, has helped support folks through grieving, through depression and other trying times in their lives, and has generally been humane to each other at the end of the day. The professional kitchen in my experience leaves very little room for humanity or at the very least does little to encourage it. Wages, working conditions, working through illness, lack of time off, disparate schedule from the rest of the world, long hours/weeks/years, abusive power structures, FOH/BOH structural inequalities, at will employment, lower pay for undocumented workers, and on and on. Everyone has their struggles and I can imagine they are magnified when at the height of the restaurant world and ultimately as the point person for the livelihoods of countless families, whom based on the article I would wager feel far more grief at the loss of the human than anger at being 'let down.' I don't think most pro cooks, myself included, come here to double down on the culture, the ego stroking, and the mysogeny.
On a side note, eechef, not to pick fights, but aren't you a mod? I get you're trying to poke fun, but take a step back and think if your audience was the widow you make reference to, would you try to emasculate her husband and comment on her physical attractiveness? Even if the answer is yes, I believe there's a line you crossed when it comes to creating a welcoming community here.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Feb 1, 2016)

Apologies to those who interpreted the posting of a picture of Chef Violier and his wife as approval of the post replied to.


----------



## TimH (Feb 1, 2016)

This is a quote from David Foster Wallace's _Infinite Jest_ and is the most visceral and accurate description of intense suicidality I have read. I'm trying to fathom poking fun at such a subject.

"The so-called psychotically depressed person who tries to kill herself doesn't do so out of quote hopelessness or any abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's terror of the flames. Yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling Dont! and Hang on!, can understand the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."


----------



## TimH (Feb 1, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Apologies to those who interpreted the posting of a picture of Chef Violier and his wife as approval of the post replied to.



With respect, how else could one interpret the posting of that picture?


----------



## WildBoar (Feb 1, 2016)

The problem is that is pure conjector on the quote author's part. It may be the case for some, or even many, but not necessarily all. Like most, I have known people who committed suicide, and some who tried. And some have been family members and in-laws. From those who tried, I'd say it was a 50/50 split as to how they felt (although we'll never know for sure). One I know who was successful did it with a measure of spite. Yeah, I agree ecchef's post wasn't in the best taste, but I also believe it is not a taboo subject and some people who commit suicide are in fact taking the easy way out. Pleue did a nice job summing up the attititude of many kitchen professionals -- and while I am definitwly not one myself, I understand there is little tolerance for people who can't hack it. A forum full of restaurant pros is one of the least like places to find sympathy after the fact; they will do all they can to help to prevent something like that from happening, but once the person makes that choice they often will never be viewed the same again.


----------



## TimH (Feb 1, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> The problem is that is pure conjector on the quote author's part. It may be the case for some, or even many, but not necessarily all. Like most, I have known people who committed suicide, and some who tried. And some have been family members and in-laws. From those who tried, I'd say it was a 50/50 split as to how they felt (although we'll never know for sure). One I know who was successful did it with a measure of spite. Yeah, I agree ecchef's post wasn't in the best taste, but I also believe it is not a taboo subject and some people who commit suicide are in fact taking the easy way out. Pleue did a nice job summing up the attititude of many kitchen professionals -- and while I am definitwly not one myself, I understand there is little tolerance for people who can't hack it. A forum full of restaurant pros is one of the least like places to find sympathy after the fact; they will do all they can to help to prevent something like that from happening, but once the person makes that choice they often will never be viewed the same again.



With respect to the quote, it is more than conjecture; the author committed suicide a few years later. The experience in the quote is also backed up by my own experience with suicidality. It's not "Gee, this is hard, I think I'll kill myself today." It's finally giving in after weeks, months or years of asking every day, "How can I NOT kill myself today."

The attitudes toward suicide that you describe also aren't conducive to preventing suicide in those who are suffering.


----------



## chiffonodd (Feb 1, 2016)

TimH said:


> With respect, how else could one interpret the posting of that picture?



I took it as the opposite. And I think it was 100% correct to call out that horrible comment.


----------



## TimH (Feb 1, 2016)

I took it as "Yes, his widow is hot, here she is."


----------



## chiffonodd (Feb 1, 2016)

TimH said:


> I took it as "Yes, his widow is hot, here she is."



Hmm I took it as showing that both were real people, and that neither should be the subject (at this time especially) of such sickening, sophomoric ********. But maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## TimH (Feb 1, 2016)

I'll go with your interpretation, especially in light of the poster's apology.


----------



## wellminded1 (Feb 1, 2016)

I think this whole thread has gotten off topic, the sad thing is still the loss of a great chef who succumbed to his own personal demons, which I am sure were polarized by the constant stress of wanting to be on top.


----------



## pleue (Feb 2, 2016)

Maybe so, but sometimes going astray can lead to something fruitful. It makes you wonder what it means to hack it in his industry and who is the beholder of that supposed standard. I agree with wildboar that suicide isn't or at least shouldn't be a taboo subject as it diminishes the capacity for people to share those personal demons you mentioned as well as our capacity to listen and empathize.


----------



## TimH (Feb 2, 2016)

pleue said:


> Maybe so, but sometimes going astray can lead to something fruitful. It makes you wonder what it means to hack it in his industry and who is the beholder of that supposed standard. I agree with wildboar that suicide isn't or at least shouldn't be a taboo subject as it diminishes the capacity for people to share those personal demons you mentioned as well as our capacity to listen and empathize.



Well said.


----------



## daveb (Feb 2, 2016)

Certainly a tragic event, anytime someone makes the choice to take their own life. But I had a similar reaction as ecchef when reading how many experts were lined up to explain how this action was a consequence of the culinary profession with its impossible expectations and by God something must done. And NOW. 

It is a demanding profession, and expectations are sometimes impossible but the same can be said for others. At the end of the day the chef chose to check out and we'll prob never know why. 

I would not have expressed my reaction to the story but ecchef certainly has a right to his opinion - even if it pisses others off.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

I think you're reading too much into a one line quote.

I know that this will probably be poorly received, but the fact of the matter is that he chose to make her a widow. I don't see the problem with drawing attention to the fact that she is now alone and that she is the true victim here.

My thoughts immediately turned to his family, and I interpreted that quote as genuine concern for the family, but phased in the words of a gruff, hard-boiled guy.

I don't pretend to know what the guy was going through, but if I'm living in terror, my number one priority is to stay as close as possible to my wife and do everything possible to protect her from it.


----------



## spoiledbroth (Feb 2, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> The problem is that is pure conjector on the quote author's part. It may be the case for some, or even many, but not necessarily all. Like most, I have known people who committed suicide, and some who tried. And some have been family members and in-laws. From those who tried, I'd say it was a 50/50 split as to how they felt (although we'll never know for sure). One I know who was successful did it with a measure of spite. Yeah, I agree ecchef's post wasn't in the best taste, but I also believe it is not a taboo subject and some people who commit suicide are in fact taking the easy way out. Pleue did a nice job summing up the attititude of many kitchen professionals -- and while I am definitwly not one myself, I understand there is little tolerance for people who can't hack it. A forum full of restaurant pros is one of the least like places to find sympathy after the fact; they will do all they can to help to prevent something like that from happening, but once the person makes that choice they often will never be viewed the same again.


I think most of your post is right, except the last part about pros... at least in my point of view.

The restaurant industry is plagued by alcoholism and drugs addiction, which are almost always symptoms of a deeper mental illness, whether it be clinical depression or what have you. There is a lot of romanticizing about going to the bar after work, yadda yadda. There are always a few people in every kitchen who spend the bulk of their paycheck on rent and getting altered. It is sad to see someone who is like a family member, like a comrade in the trenches, self destruct outside of work. It's not cute. It's not funny. It's sad to see people going down the "wrong path."

Although IMO it is in bad taste to speak ill of the dead, and in particular someone who has killed themselves. I would see suicide as really the ultimate expression of a person's pain and deluded state of mind, and I think it is really saddening.

I don't know the reason why the gentleman in question killed himself (the chef) but this isn't the first michelin chef it happened to. 


However it's not taboo. I don't think ecchef is a bad guy for saying what he did, that is a sentiment about suicidality that that is condoned by society, and is especially prevalent in North America, I guess I could postulate this is perhaps a relic of North America's history which is deeply intertwined with Christianity (I think suicide is a mortal sin if I recall, or something). However simply because something is condoned by the majority does not make it right. 

Anyway. Everyone's takeaway should be about mental illness, if someone close to you seems depressed you should do what you can to help them or get them help. :eyebrow:

To our health (mental and physical),
sourstock


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> I don't think ecchef is a bad guy for saying what he did, that is a sentiment about suicidality that that is condoned by society, and is especially prevalent in North America, I guess I could postulate this is perhaps a relic of North America's history which is deeply intertwined with Christianity (I think suicide is a mortal sin if I recall, or something). However simply because something is condoned by the majority does not make it right.



You are correct, suicide is generally considered to be the ultimate rejection of salvation through Christ.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Feb 2, 2016)

Tragic and I'm sure unexpected, a person probably wouldn't have thought this could happen when you see he's doing so well and had a lot going for him. I see a happy couple in that picture and not someone who appears to be at the edge, unfortunate to have to suffer in silence. Just goes to show that mental illnesses don't care who you are. RIP


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Feb 2, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> The restaurant industry is plagued by alcoholism and drugs addiction, which are almost always symptoms of a deeper mental illness, whether it be clinical depression or what have you. There is a lot of romanticizing about going to the bar after work, yadda yadda. There are always a few people in every kitchen who spend the bulk of their paycheck on rent and getting altered. It is sad to see someone who is like a family member, like a comrade in the trenches, self destruct outside of work. It's not cute. It's not funny. It's sad to see people going down the "wrong path."



Sounds similar to what I remember going on back during my time in the industry


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 2, 2016)

TimH said:


> Very poor taste, gentlemen (and I am using that term ironically at the moment). This thread is the only thing I have seen so far that has turned me off to this community.



+1

The stigma still attached to psychological diseases makes me sick.

Nobody would ever say anything detrimental about someone with cancer. But why depression and other neurological diseases?


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 2, 2016)

Here is another article with a nice video embedded that gives a better sense of the chef. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-highlights-pressure-cooker-of-haute-cuisine/


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

Edit: Deleted


----------



## TimH (Feb 2, 2016)

Bill13 said:


> Here is another article with a nice video embedded that gives a better sense of the chef. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-highlights-pressure-cooker-of-haute-cuisine/



An excellent piece, but instead of "suicide highlights pressure-cooker of haute cuisine," I would like to see "suicide highlights insidious nature of mental illness." 

I'm a college science prof. I often tell students "there is a very fine line between careful attention to detail and malignant perfectionism. Attention to detail will take you far. Perfectionism can kill you. Only you can tell where that line is." 

I always worry a bit (from experience) when we send perfectionists to med school.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

TimH said:


> An excellent piece, but instead of "suicide highlights pressure-cooker of haute cuisine," I would like to see "suicide highlights insidious nature of mental illness."
> 
> I'm a college science prof. I often tell students "there is a very fine line between careful attention to detail and malignant perfectionism. Attention to detail will take you far. Perfectionism can kill you. Only you can tell where that line is."
> 
> I always worry a bit (from experience) when we send perfectionists to med school.



Why is Med school a concern? I'd be more concerned about Engineering.

To my mind Engineering is one of the single worst professions for a perfectionist to find themselves in. 

As a result of being a perfectionist, I had to leave the profession before even graduating. There was one time when there was a group project for which my work scored 100%, but the work contributed by the other members was incredibly poor (40%). The net result was that everyone in the group would be awarded 50% (so I dropped by 50% on account of their poor work while they all gained 10% on account of mine). I was also not willing to have my name associated with the overall project, and was not allowed to do the whole project alone (which I was willing to do). I decided to remove my name from the submitted work and receive no credit rather than being associated with it and there being no clear indication of which portion of the work was mine. If I'd stayed in that profession I would probably have ended up killing people...

It has however been a great blessing when running my own businesses!

My guess would be that Medicine is almost the opposite (in terms of focus) with the person blaming themselves for every death, whereas in Engineering it culminates in exasperation at incompetent co-workers.


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 2, 2016)

In reading the comments following the Post article one statement stood out to me. This person thought that since his whole adult life (really earlier I think) was spent working towards being the best restaurant in the world. Once he got that recognition in December he had nothing else to live for. Those offended by ecchef's comment (I was not) may not want to read the comments because many people are writing in who were personally affected by a loved ones suicide describing the action as being the last selfish act of a selfish person.

This is the problem with an unbalanced life. It's a conundrum many people face because it is very hard if not impossible to run a small successful business without neglecting some other aspect of your life. Not to say my business is all that successful (and certainly not as demanding as working in a successful restaurant), but my wife reminds me of my inattention fairly frequently.


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 2, 2016)

Today the Post also had an interesting article about how ketamine is being used to help treat depression: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...e73862-b490-11e5-a76a-0b5145e8679a_story.html

Most interesting was the description that the psychotic nature of the drug helped those being treated feel more connected to others and not so alone in the world. The results are almost immediate which I have to imagine would be so life altering to those who suffer badly and all other treatments have failed. It's a last resort because it is known on the street as Special K and the date rape drug.


----------



## ChefCosta (Feb 2, 2016)

I think that we can all agree that it is poor form to mock the recently deceased regardless of circumstance and I would imagine that with some time to reflect ecchef is unlikely to remain proud of what he chose to write. That being said, we kitchen folks tend to have a dark sense of humor that often goes too far. Humor is a coping device for many people and, while I do not know ecchef personally, it is not hard to imagine that could be what was going on here.


----------



## panda (Feb 2, 2016)

i dont care if anyone is offended, suicide is selfish act and deserves no empathy what so ever. unless it's an extreme case like terminal illness or crippled with no loved ones remaining, etc.


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 2, 2016)

panda said:


> i dont care if anyone is offended, suicide is selfish act and deserves no empathy what so ever. unless it's an extreme case like terminal illness or crippled with no loved ones remaining, etc.



Yes, it is selfish! But then again: It's a selfish world and people do selfish things all day long, every day of the week.

At the end of the day, it's a personal decision. No state or law can change that, and it can't stop anyone from doing it. If someone decides that the pain of living is so much worse than the (perceived) pain of those he/she leaves behind, it's their decision. Who are we to judge and say that someone else should live a life in misery to spare his loved ones from grieving? Yes, it's the ultimate selfish thing to do... But in a selfish world. If/when we stop being so selfish as humans in other aspects of life, maybe then we can have a discussion that no one should be allowed to be so selfish to kill him/herself... But not before. Not when people all over the world day in, day out because of the selfishness of others.


----------



## TimH (Feb 2, 2016)

panda said:


> i dont care if anyone is offended, suicide is selfish act and deserves no empathy what so ever. unless it's an extreme case like terminal illness or crippled with no loved ones remaining, etc.



As the person who helped kick off this can of worms, I'm not offended. I'm saddened by the prevalence of this view and the ignorance it reflects.


----------



## spoiledbroth (Feb 2, 2016)

panda said:


> i dont care if anyone is offended, suicide is selfish act and deserves no empathy what so ever. unless it's an extreme case like terminal illness or crippled with no loved ones remaining, etc.


This moral relativism serves who?


----------



## Adrian (Feb 2, 2016)

I would not normally comment on something like this and I take no moral stance. In my view we own our lives and we have the right to choose whether we continue or not. I do not regard suicide as a selfish act, as that would be me standing in judgement about feelings and circumstances of which I know nothing for any other person. Some people may leave loved ones behind because they believe those people will be better off without them. They may be right or wrong but it is there call and we can only rally stand in judgement about our own actions.


----------



## Zweber12 (Feb 2, 2016)

I literally live less than 5km from his restaurant in Crissier; I can tell you this is more than just big news in this region of Switzerland and Haute Savoie in FR.


----------



## Bill T (Feb 2, 2016)

Ready the Ban hammer

Eechef, you are a Douche Sir. Plain and simple..a F#cking Douche


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 2, 2016)

Bill T said:


> Ready the Ban hammer
> 
> Eechef, you are a Douche Sir. Plain and simple..a F#cking Douche



Is this where we say something stupid and childish like "it takes one to know one"? Calling someone a douche or ignorant adds nothing useful to an interesting and obviously emotional issue. It also does nothing to convince others you are correct, at least I hope not.

My hope with starting this thread was to bring attention to the stresses people at the top deal with. Was ecchef's comment helpful in this regard, no. But I think it is time to move past that. To that end I will recommend the book about another chef who committed suicide http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MGAHXM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 I read it a few years ago and it was a great book.


----------



## Dave Martell (Feb 2, 2016)

Dave (ecchef) has always been one of the best members of this community and that still stands as far as I'm concerned. I don't mean to speak for him but I'm guessing that he said what he did because he's been in the trenches a LONG time and knows a lot about the subject matter. 

Maybe we should get back to the original topic of the thread vs roasting Dave?


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 2, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> Dave (ecchef) has always been one of the best members of this community and that still stands as far as I'm concerned. I don't mean to speak for him but I'm guessing that he said what he did because he's been in the trenches a LONG time and knows a lot about the subject matter.
> 
> Maybe we should get back to the original topic of the thread vs roasting Dave?



lus1:


----------



## spoiledbroth (Feb 2, 2016)

I wanted to reinforce I wasn't attacking ecchef. I see it as a "strong silent type" of reaction, which like I said is permissible in society I believe as a relic of an earlier time when there was a different prevailing point of view on the "sanctity of life" and a lesser awareness of mental health issues. 

And also to reiterate that outside of more complex, highly controversial topics like physician assisted death/suicide (which we are not allowed to discuss here- and for good reason IMO), this chef's suicide should if nothing else get you thinking about the state of mental health care and societal attitudes toward it in your respective countries, and the people you love around you. 

It is always a sad thing when a person leaves this mortal coil, even moreso when they precipitate the event.

That's the last I'll say about it!


----------



## mr drinky (Feb 2, 2016)

Jesus people. ONE big snowfall out east and you all get snowed-in cabin fever and make this lord of the flies. Or maybe it was the disappointment of groundhog day. I don't know. Now I have to go shovel my driveway.

k.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

Can this be closed and deleted?

It's veered massively from the original post to now being a mixture of flaming Dave and moral debate; which is best kept off this forum. If this continues, we're just going to end up falling out and disliking each other.

The comments about Dave are out of line, you can't make a judgement about him from that one post, you don't know how it was meant, and even if it was meant as you read it, he's entitled to that opinion.

Suicide is a line in the sand. A man who commits suicide has killed his mother's son, his wife's husband and his children's farther. If someone has nobody, then maybe their life is their own, and it's their choice to take their own life, but once married and with children your life is not just yours! You may have the right to take your own life, but you don't have the right to rob a woman of her husband, and children of their farther.


----------



## chiffonodd (Feb 2, 2016)

I suggest that anyone who has a strong feeling about this (one way or the other) read "Night Falls Fast" by Dr. Kay Jamison, a professor at Johns Hopkins Med School. It's an incredible and terrifying book on the links between mental illness and suicide. It attempts to lay out the clinical research on the subject - not to justify or excuse, but to make sense of what is to most people an incomprehensible act. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G606NK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The fact is that suicide is almost always the product of a mind shattered by (1) schizophrenia, (2) bipolar illness, or (3) major depressive disorder. People assume that people should be able to think their way out of suicidal ideation, but the problem is that it is the mind itself that is broken. When these susceptibilities (often genetic and quite physiological) combine with periods of intense illness and certain stressors, the result can be suicide. But that is only a partial picture. Sometimes suicide occurs just when things seem to be turning around, or during time of apparent success. The reasons for this are quite complicated and examined in detail in the book.


----------



## brianh (Feb 2, 2016)

chiffonodd said:


> I suggest that anyone who has a strong feeling about this (one way or the other) read "Night Falls Fast" by Dr. Kay Jamison, a professor at Johns Hopkins Med School. It's an incredible and terrifying book on the links between mental illness and suicide. It attempts to lay out the clinical research on the subject - not to justify or excuse, but to make sense of what is to most people an incomprehensible act.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G606NK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> The fact is that suicide is almost always the product of a mind shattered by (1) schizophrenia, (2) bipolar illness, or (3) major depressive disorder. People assume that people should be able to think their way out of suicidal ideation, but the problem is that it is the mind itself that is broken. When these susceptibilities (often genetic and quite physiological) combine with periods of intense illness and certain stressors, the result can be suicide. But that is only a partial picture. Sometimes suicide occurs just when things seem to be turning around, or during time of apparent success. The reasons for this are quite complicated and examined in detail in the book.



Well said. I'm trying to remain respectful here. No one jokes about cancer, but somehow mental illness is a sign of weakness. Not always. It would be wise for us to remember that there are those of us here who had friends or family who have gone through this.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

brianh said:


> No one jokes about cancer, but somehow mental illness is a sign of weakness.



Where I come from people do. Someone with lung cancer as a direct result of being a heavy smoking for decades (despite health warnings) would be looked upon poorly. The same goes with obesity and the diseases that come with it. I'm not saying that the individual is to blame, but mental health issues are not the only issues which people ridicule.

Maybe British humor is darker.

The common thread is that it's self inflicted, as suicide invariably is. Suicide is a betrayal of all who love you, and everyone who has tried to help you get through it. They could have cut you adrift long ago, but they stayed with you and yet you abandoned them.


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 2, 2016)

chiffonodd said:


> I suggest that anyone who has a strong feeling about this (one way or the other) read "Night Falls Fast" by Dr. Kay Jamison, a professor at Johns Hopkins Med School. It's an incredible and terrifying book on the links between mental illness and suicide. It attempts to lay out the clinical research on the subject - not to justify or excuse, but to make sense of what is to most people an incomprehensible act.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G606NK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> The fact is that suicide is almost always the product of a mind shattered by (1) schizophrenia, (2) bipolar illness, or (3) major depressive disorder. People assume that people should be able to think their way out of suicidal ideation, but the problem is that it is the mind itself that is broken. When these susceptibilities (often genetic and quite physiological) combine with periods of intense illness and certain stressors, the result can be suicide. But that is only a partial picture. Sometimes suicide occurs just when things seem to be turning around, or during time of apparent success. The reasons for this are quite complicated and examined in detail in the book.



That looks like a great book. My local library has it and I have placed it on hold. Thanks again.


----------



## brianh (Feb 2, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> Where I come from people do. Someone with lung cancer as a direct result of being a heavy smoking for decades (despite health warnings) would be looked upon poorly. The same goes with obesity and the diseases that come with it.
> 
> The common thread is that it's self inflicted, as suicide invariably is. Suicide is a betrayal of all who love you, and everyone who has tried to help you get through it. They could have cut you adrift long ago, but they stayed with you and yet you abandoned them.



Infuriating. You've couldn't have missed my point any further.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

brianh said:


> Infuriating. You've couldn't have missed my point any further.



I'm sorry. Reading that back, it comes across differently to how I intended it.

I felt the need to express that it's not only mental illness which is ridiculed, I didn't mean to offend.


----------



## brianh (Feb 2, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I'm sorry. Reading that back, it comes across directly rio how I intended it.
> 
> I felt the need to express that it's not only mental illness which is ridiculed, I didn't mean to offend.



Thanks, man. Of course some will romanticize it and refuse help for needed life changes. It's the lack of empathy from some which is really disturbing. I don't think many in their right mind will end their lives, and ridicule is likely a part of what drove them to that point.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

brianh said:


> Thanks, man. Of course some will romanticize it and refuse help for needed life changes. It's the lack of empathy from some which is really disturbing. I don't think many in their right mind will end their lives, and ridicule is likely a part of what drove them to that point.



I agree.

I feel compelled to say this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it to avoid offending people, so please bear with me.

I personally feel that the traditional attitude to suicide should not change and should not soften. I feel that it should be considered that they committed suicide rather than that they were the victim of suicide, and that there should not be any public outpouring of compassion upon death.

We should have respect for the dead and empathy for those dealing with personal issues, but suicide must never appear to anyone as a path to martyrdom or salvation. 

I feel that the erosion of religion has reduced the perceived value of our lives and this is a terrible shame. In the Christian tradition, through suicide you are simply separating yourself from God, Christ and all those who love you - in order to give yourself over entirely to your demons. In effect you are choosing to give your soul over to the demons who have plagued you, rather than trusting in God to deliver you from them. Suicide may make things worse for all involved, and rather than being a way out, a way to end things, it could simply be a case of diving into the abyss with no possibility of salvation. Suicide is not giving up on life, but giving up on salvation.

Again, if it weren't 3:30am I would be able to phase things in a more sympathetic way (and that it how it is meant).

Edit: I just realised that I sound like a religious preacher. I am not, I am not even baptised. I was however educated in a Roman Catholic school, so I am quite well acquainted with the teachings.


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 2, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I agree.
> 
> I feel compelled to say this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it to avoid offending people, so please bear with me.
> 
> ...



Some people don't believe in God, salvation and the likes... what about them?


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 2, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Some people don't believe in God, salvation and the likes... what about them?



That's exactly my point! As I said that the bottom, I'm one of those people.

It seems that increased suicide rates are due (at least in part) to lack of belief, it seems that the perceived value of life (including ones own life) is diminished.

A religious person would see that suicide would only make things worse, while a non-believer would see it as a way out. I think that this shifted perspective is helping fuel rising suicide rates.


----------



## chiffonodd (Feb 2, 2016)

It does not glorify or encourage suicide to recognize the fact (yes, fact) that it is precipitated by either the subjective experience of unendurable pain or some form of psychosis, often both. Nor does it glorify or encourage suicide to show compassion to the memory of those who have succumbed to grave illness.

As for whether it is a "choice," that is not a simple question. Yes it is volitional, that is, done intentionally. But I think that the concept of "choice" usually presupposes some degree of rational decision-making in order to be meaningful. A person who is suicidal may very well be (in fact, is quite likely to be) in the grips of delusional and/or hallucinatory mental illness, in which the mind loses the ability to think rationally -- i.e., to see, in your words, that it will "just make things worse." This is corroborated by the self-reports of many people who have survived suicide attemps. Often as the attempt was underway (for example, as they are falling after jumping), they are gripped with an incredible sense of terror and regret, because survival instinct kicks in. A different layer of consciousness takes over. And for a moment it is enough to jar them out of the delusional perceptions that are the product of dysphoric mania, major depression, schizoaffective disorder, or whatever else was plaguing them. But they lacked the ability (quite literally, the mental ability) to come to that realization without the external shock of the event itself.

That suicide can strike anyone -- young, old, rich, poor, man, woman, success, failure -- is really very strong evidence that it has nothing to do with rational thought. It is a diseased mind that forms the intent to kill itself. Moralizing the decision neither makes sense nor is likely to do anything to prevent suicide, if that is the goal. If anything it is likely only to increase the sense of guilt, shame, and worthlessness that feeds at least one contributor in the form of major depression. It takes a tremendous amount of support and caring to defeat depression on that scale. Judgment and derision are just about the last things needed by a person at high risk for suicide.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 3, 2016)

chiffonodd said:


> It takes a tremendous amount of support and caring to defeat depression on that scale. Judgment and derision are just about the last things needed by a person at high risk for suicide.



I couldn't agree more. People going through this need immense support and should get it. I would be more than willing to help in any way I could, as I'm sure almost everyone else would.

To me though, suicide is a line in the sand. Other than in the event of a psychotic episode where the person was insane, I would be infuriated by their decision to take their own life.

None of what I've said, applies to someone who was truly insane, and I do consider those people to have been victims of suicide rather then the perpetrators.







Apparently though, more than half are not insane and I do feel that those not suffering from mental illness could have worked their way through their problems.


----------



## spoiledbroth (Feb 3, 2016)

Mental illness is frequently undiagnosed until a major episode (which may be suicide)

Mentally stable people do not consider realistically killing themselves (premeditation, etc) over even the most acrimonious break up

Mentally stable people do not consider realistically killing themselves for any of the other reasons given there save illness. 

Perhaps you are unwilling to view suicide as a symptom of a deeper problem which is invariably mental illness. I understand why some people simply don't understand- depression or other forms of mental illness are impossible to understand unless it's happened to someone close to you, or you yourself, and you have taken the time to be introspective about the experience.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 3, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Mental illness is frequently undiagnosed until a major episode (which may be suicide)
> 
> Mentally stable people do not consider realistically killing themselves (premeditation, etc) over even the most acrimonious break up
> 
> ...



Just to be clear, I didn't make that chart. I also found that proportionally, 2x as many people kill themselves in the US as in the UK. I find life in each to be pretty similar, with similar living standards and culture. All I can put it down to is access to firearms, given that the majority of US suicides are carried out that way and it doesn't require prior planning, only a moment of madness.

I'm not a medical professional, so far be it from me to say who does and doesn't have a mental illness or is mentally stable; I would say though that suicide is not in itself evidence of mental illness.

I'm not saying that it's right and in truth it's probably a flaw on my part, but I know that if someone close to me did to take their own life I would never be able to forgive them.

Edit: I just realised that I'm every other post for a full page. I don't want to argue with or preach to you guys, so unless I'm asked anything directly, I'll leave this alone now. If I've offended anyone I apologise, it wasn't intentional.


----------



## TimH (Feb 3, 2016)

chiffonodd said:


> I suggest that anyone who has a strong feeling about this (one way or the other) read "Night Falls Fast" by Dr. Kay Jamison, a professor at Johns Hopkins Med School. It's an incredible and terrifying book on the links between mental illness and suicide. It attempts to lay out the clinical research on the subject - not to justify or excuse, but to make sense of what is to most people an incomprehensible act.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G606NK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> The fact is that suicide is almost always the product of a mind shattered by (1) schizophrenia, (2) bipolar illness, or (3) major depressive disorder. People assume that people should be able to think their way out of suicidal ideation, but the problem is that it is the mind itself that is broken. When these susceptibilities (often genetic and quite physiological) combine with periods of intense illness and certain stressors, the result can be suicide. But that is only a partial picture. Sometimes suicide occurs just when things seem to be turning around, or during time of apparent success. The reasons for this are quite complicated and examined in detail in the book.




I strongly second this recommendation. I read it during my two month stay in the psych hospital ten years ago. My unit was filled with high performing professionals with mental health issues. The chef in question likely would have fit right in.


----------



## preizzo (Feb 3, 2016)

I am a chef myself and I can just feel sorry for his family. 
Who are working in this business like me know how hard is it keep that kind of level of food. The stress I experienced when I am working in a mitchelin star environment has no word. 
Chefs are a proud kind of human beings. One bad feedback on your own food can destroy all your humor. 
Rip


----------



## panda (Feb 3, 2016)

you know what i gather from people resorting to you know what due to pressure and ridicule? egotistical and weak minded.


----------



## chiffonodd (Feb 3, 2016)

panda said:


> you know what i gather from people resorting to you know what due to pressure and ridicule? egotistical and weak minded.



A fundamental misapprehension of the causes of suicide, and an attitude that perpetuates much of the pain of these sort of industries. Not just cooking - medicine, law . . . anything with extreme hours and pressure. Lawyers have substance abuse and depression rates 18X the national average. Divorce is rampant. I've seen it up close for years. The tougher they talk, the more their own inner lives are in shambles, believe me. One wonders if things would be different if people treated each other with more compassion and we're unafraid to admit their own struggles. This isn't some kumbaya nonsense - this is quite literally in some cases a matter of life and death.


----------



## panda (Feb 3, 2016)

what ever shambles they think their lives are in, it's still not justifiable nor does it deserve empathy. homeless people that are both starving and battling substance abuse/weather still fight strong for an example. if you ask me, it is kumbaya nonsense.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 3, 2016)

It's hard to say why exactly people do this. There are factors that affect the decision, of course. I can say that after my wife had cancer twice (lymphoma), i can see why some people resort to it as a way to end suffering. Life, as we know it, looses all its appeal. There was a great poet in Brazil, Machado de Assis, that wrote a poem talking about his deceased wife and the lack of appeal his new life without her had. They lived together for 35 years. At the end, he says (badly translated): "If i have ... thoughts of life, they are thoughts gone and already lived".


----------



## chiffonodd (Feb 3, 2016)

panda said:


> what ever shambles they think their lives are in, it's still not justifiable nor does it deserve empathy. homeless people that are both starving and battling substance abuse/weather still fight strong for an example. if you ask me, it is kumbaya nonsense.



You're right that the vast majority of people who face severe hardships do so without committing suicide. That is because suicide typically results from the confluence of hardship and some underlying mental health condition. The reason I say it is not kumbaya nonsense is because this is data driven, cutting edge medical research -- microbiology, brain imaging studies, and the like. Robin Williams for example had Lewy Bodies (protein aggregates in the brain), caused by Parkinson's Disease, which causes extreme paranoia and dementia-like symptoms. It is very likely that his suicide was influenced in large part by this disorder. Does it make sense to call that a charafter flaw? I think not. Likewise, in major depressive disorder, brain scans show a marked decrease in functional connectivity between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex, suggesting that the pathophysiology of MDD results from a physical inability of the brain to regulate response to negative emotional stimulus in the same way that a healthy person would. The fact is that we are able now to unlock some of the biological underpinnings of mental illness. What previously may have been viewed as weakness of character may, in many cases, be an actual physical defect in the neural architecture of the brain. And as I said before, how can one simply think their way out of depression when the mind itself is broken?


----------



## brianh (Feb 3, 2016)

Weak mindedness... :evilgrin: hmmmm


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 3, 2016)

Edit: Deleted - I said I'd stay out of this now.


----------



## boomchakabowwow (Feb 3, 2016)

weak mind? anything related to a closed mind?

i dont understand suicide at all. but i'm not closed minded enough to call it a sign of weakness. unless i'm in that moment tied to the other person's thought waves, i'll never get it.

RIP chef dude suicide guy. hope he found what he was looking for on the other side. 

i say it now and for as long as i can. i am going down SWINGING.


----------



## spoiledbroth (Feb 3, 2016)

panda said:


> what ever shambles they think their lives are in, it's still not justifiable nor does it deserve empathy. homeless people that are both starving and battling substance abuse/weather still fight strong for an example. if you ask me, it is kumbaya nonsense.


Obviously you don't get it :/ normal healthy people do not have suicidal ideation. Period. Full stop.


----------



## chiffonodd (Feb 3, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Obviously you don't get it :/ normal healthy people do not have suicidal ideation. Period. Full stop.



Put another way, people are entitled to their own opinion but they are not entitled to their own facts.


----------



## chinacats (Feb 3, 2016)

boomchakabowwow said:


> weak mind? anything related to a closed mind?
> 
> i dont understand suicide at all. but i'm not closed minded enough to call it a sign of weakness. unless i'm in that moment tied to the other person's thought waves, i'll never get it.
> 
> ...



Yep


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 3, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Obviously you don't get it :/ normal healthy people do not have suicidal ideation. Period. Full stop.



Unless you are a teenager. I think almost all teenagers have thoughts about suicide to some extent.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 3, 2016)

chiffonodd said:


> Put another way, people are entitled to their own opinion but they are not entitled to their own facts.



I regret that I'm wading back in here, but is there any empirical evidence which shows that a significant proportion of the 55% of suicides which are not attributed to mental illness do indeed have some underlying mental health issue? 

I understand the argument that nobody in their right mind would take their life, but that is not sufficient grounds for a diagnosis.


----------



## Castalia (Feb 3, 2016)

Some interesting thoughts regarding reporting suicides in the media:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18082110


----------



## spoiledbroth (Feb 3, 2016)

Teenages do not all experience "real" suicidal ideation. As I said before suicidal ideation almost always implies a planning or premeditated component- a healthy person does not plan the way in which they are going to kill themselves. A healthy person doesn't consider such a thing.

If anyone here ever has thoughts about suicidality; I'll urge you to get help now. It is abnormal for an otherwise physically healthy person to consider suicide.



MAS4T0 said:


> I regret that I'm wading back in here, but is there any empirical evidence which shows that a significant proportion of the 55% of suicides which are not attributed to mental illness do indeed have some underlying mental health issue?
> 
> I understand the argument that nobody in their right mind would take their life, but that is not sufficient grounds for a diagnosis.


It is absolutely sufficient grounds for diagnosis of mental illness. To have killed yourself? Dude! It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem (again excluding end of life/physician assisted death)

If we are strictly talking "despair" related suicide, which encompasses all the things on your graph, IT IS A TOTAL OVERREACTION, such a severe overreaction that the only thing that could precipitate it is deficiency in neurological function or a psychological breakdown (or longterm mental illness).Healthy people don't just kill themselves- and that's not my "opinion" that is the way suicidality is viewed at least in canada by mental health professionals.

I am not talking about seppuku, or the culture surrounding inuk or hindu suicide or the propensity of nepalese monks to set themselves on fire. Rational suicide is another thing entirely.

Please: if the idea of killing yourself seems somehow sane, normal or agreeable to you, please get some help. It's really not a normal way of thinking.


----------



## pleue (Feb 3, 2016)

Thanks so far to everyone who has posted here whether I agree or not. I think even with some bumps along the way, the level of discourse is heightened above what I'd hoped for and much higher than what I expected. I had assumed there would be a cascade of replies all along the lines of "thoughts and prayers.." or something more secular but analogous. I'm grateful for the differing viewpoints and recommendations for exploring the depth and breadth of the topic, something I would have never gotten had this thread been locked or deleted. I think disagreement doesn't necessarily weaken a community, quite the opposite and I think most of us are in need of practice when it comes to hearing one another even when we don't see eye to eye. 

I wanted to ask folks as part of this conversation, as it's been brought up, is empathy something you do or don't deserve?


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 3, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Teenages do not all experience "real" suicidal ideation. As I said before suicidal ideation almost always implies a planning or premeditated component- a healthy person does not plan the way in which they are going to kill themselves. A healthy person doesn't consider such a thing.
> 
> If anyone here ever has thoughts about suicidality; I'll urge you to get help now. It is abnormal for an otherwise physically healthy person to consider suicide.
> 
> ...




I understand the opinion that suicide is evidence enough of insanity, but without supporting evidence, that is an opinion. To my mind, the idea that suicide is *always* due to an underlying mental disorder is ridiculous. As I said, I understand the sentiment that nobody of sound mind would kill themselves, and that the act itself is proof enough, but that is only opinion and is not evidence of a neurological disorder. I was replying to the comment that you can have your own opinions, but not your own facts; without proper evidence this seems to fall into the realm of opinion.

Suicide is most definitely an "*total overreaction*" to the pressures and losses of life, but in general, so is murder. By that line of thought you could equally well argue that nobody of sound mind would murder another human being, as it is by no means a reasonable thing to do - the logical conclusion would be that all murderers are not guilty by way of insanity. There are however plenty of murderers in prison who have been found guilty of their crimes and have not been deemed to be insane, including the majority of prolific serial killers...



pleue said:


> I wanted to ask folks as part of this conversation, as it's been brought up, is empathy something you do or don't deserve?



Do you mean do I think that I personally deserve it, or people in general?


----------



## pleue (Feb 3, 2016)

In general, ie do our actions dictate whether or not we deserve empathy, is it a privilege that can be earned/revoked?


----------



## WildBoar (Feb 3, 2016)

pleue said:


> I wanted to ask folks as part of this conversation, as it's been brought up, is empathy something you do or don't deserve?


Man, that one deserves its own thread -- I suspect there are widely varying viewpoints.

To me, I think the world works best when there is a mix of people who are typically empathetic, and some who are not. Like everything else some balance is needed to keep things from straying too far in one direction or the other.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Feb 3, 2016)

pleue said:


> In general, ie do our actions dictate whether or not we deserve empathy, is it a privilege that can be earned/revoked?



I don't feel that I deserve compassion or love from anyone and nor would I ever expect it. I would hope that some of the people I know would feel compassion for me and would be able to understand my perspective, but I don't think that it is a right I have and I do feel that those people have the right to revoke their love at any point.

I don't feel though that anyone else is undeserving of love or that it is a privilege which can or should be revoked overall for any given person. I think that it's entirely discretionary and at the discretion of the person giving.

I'm using the term "love" in the general form of caring for their wellbeing, as I don't think that empathy is what you're asking about. As I understand it, empathy is simply looking at something from their viewpoint, without any implication of sympathy or compassion. A biographer for instance would need to have empathy for the person they are writing about, to see things from their perspective as it were, but it does not necessarily imply that they feel compassion or sympathy for the person.


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 3, 2016)

Just stumbled upon this totally by chance, kinda weird: http://blog.chefsteps.com/2015/02/midnight-snack-video-a-perfect-dish-by-benoit-violier/


----------



## barramonday (Feb 5, 2016)

RIP Chef

I first read about Benoit's restaurant and dishes in So Good Magazine , would've loved to eat there.

I've been touched by suicide of someone close , totally tragic for everybody. Feel for anyone who looses a person or persons close to them to this terribly all too common act.


----------



## drawman623 (Feb 7, 2016)

TimH said:


> As the person who helped kick off this can of worms, I'm not offended. I'm saddened by the prevalence of this view and the ignorance it reflects.



I've been absent from the forum for months. I checked-in on a lark and found my friend Danny has died. Then I open this thread and find a discussion about correctness of conduct after tragedy and how failing such conduct may offend others. Many may not choose to read what I have to say, I'm long winded and a nobody to this forum, but I believe I have something to offer the discussion.

This is about thought; particularly, the direction we choose to allow our thoughts to take. I want to say ecchef's remark need not be taken as offensive. TimH has spoken with great restraint and labored to understand the mind of his fellow forum member. Perhaps also to place the image of the fallen Chef and his wife into a perspective that is not utterly mad with insensitivity. When I saw the one-two punch of those posts I assumed some would be shocked. 

Many cope with the profound challenges of culinary work or ANY challenging lifestyle in a way that only they understand...and the outward projection of their coping remains a mystery to others. Ecchef sounded to me like a man who is firmly dedicated to fight his demons. He wasn't necessarily speaking to the forum community with his words but to those demons directly. He may have jested about another available woman after her esteemed husband's suicide in literal terms, but in point of fact, such language is starkly about the business of LIVING and moving forward. This is what many labor to do...to keep their thought trending away from despair and negativity. Humor is one vehicle to interrupt a stream of thinking that unchecked, can take us to a bad place.

I cannot know what was really coming out when Ecchef spoke...but he was among the first in this community to welcome me personally...to reply to my PM's and to enrich my forum experience. My immediate thought was to know this person was not disrespecting a fellow chef. he is telling his demons to f*^& off. My next reaction was to look for Panda's post. Men of courage are often misunderstood for not apologizing for their language. Sometimes we can be part of the problem. By choosing to feel a certain way about thoughts we don't really understand, we can create rifts between us that need not exist.

I had 2 coworkers kill themselves in the last 10 years. 3 years ago my best friend took his own life. My buddy dove off a bridge and died alone to quiet the voices in his head. Voices that called upon him to harm others. The other two co-workers lost their jobs and couldn't face the dilemma...the crushing weight of failing their families. 

As TimH said, "I'm saddened by the prevalence of this view and the ignorance it reflects." But I direct the words not to those who mock the men and women who quit life...I speak to those who choose to seek the dark and negative interpretation of another person's actions. Even the expert that TimH cites, who delved into the psyche of the suicidal in quest of explanation, in an event of tragic irony, took his own life. How can any of us honor the dead that way? Thus the meaning of the picture that followed Ecchef's...a portrait of better times, of love and of success.

My next meal will include a toast to Danny, and a reflection upon the sacrifices that go with its preparation. May we never take them for granted.


----------



## stevenStefano (Feb 7, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> a healthy person does not plan the way in which they are going to kill themselves. A healthy person doesn't consider such a thing.
> 
> If anyone here ever has thoughts about suicidality; I'll urge you to get help now. It is abnormal for an otherwise physically healthy person to consider suicide.
> 
> ...



I don't agree with this at all, I don't believe you have to have any kind of mental illness to kill yourself or want to. A crisis or perceived crisis can hit anyone at any time and I don't think it''s crazy for someone to think it's not worth fighting through it and either kill themself or think about it. As for getting help, if your life has been completely destroyed, I can see the viewpoint that talking about it isn't going to magically fix it

I think generally suicide deserves a lot of empathy. That someone can feel their life is in such a state that no matter what good things there are in their life are outweighed by the bad, I think it's very sad


----------



## panda (Feb 7, 2016)

poor guy, michelin rated chef what a sorry life. oh come on!!


----------



## easy13 (Feb 7, 2016)

If this guy made knives with exotic wood handles and owed a bunch of people on here customs and or money he would be getting a lot more sympathy, Jesus


----------



## SousVideLoca (Feb 7, 2016)

> If anyone here ever has thoughts about suicidality; I'll urge you to get help now. It is abnormal for an otherwise physically healthy person to consider suicide.


Ugh... no. That's a pretty alarmist statement, that refutes a lot of what we know about the human condition after thousands of years of psychological study and introspection. Basic suicidal thoughts are absolutely normal, and everyone has them now and then. It is _how we respond to those thoughts_ that indicates the need for intervention: one worrying symptom is _intrusiveness_, or the psychological persistence of a particular thought; that is to say, you find that it is "always on your mind." When the thoughts become _distressing._ When the thoughts make you feel helpless, or out of control; when the thoughts become _bigger_ than you are. 

Having the occasional urge to blow your brains all over the place is a part of being human, just like having the occasional urge to run over your neighbor's yapping terrier with the lawn mower. It's entirely normal to have dark and evil thoughts, and to go to dark and ugly places in our minds; it's our _relationship_ with those thoughts, and how we manage them, that defines (in part) our mental health.


----------



## gic (Feb 7, 2016)

depressive suicidal thoughts are an illness and there are definite brain changes - in fact there is a lot of work on using ketamine to reverse them. It seems in a large # of cases, it works miraculously well:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/278070.php

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/830499


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Feb 9, 2016)

drawman623 said:


> I've been absent from the forum for months. I checked-in on a lark and found my friend Danny has died. Then I open this thread and find a discussion about correctness of conduct after tragedy and how failing such conduct may offend others. Many may not choose to read what I have to say, I'm long winded and a nobody to this forum, but I believe I have something to offer the discussion.
> 
> This is about thought; particularly, the direction we choose to allow our thoughts to take. I want to say ecchef's remark need not be taken as offensive. TimH has spoken with great restraint and labored to understand the mind of his fellow forum member. Perhaps also to place the image of the fallen Chef and his wife into a perspective that is not utterly mad with insensitivity. When I saw the one-two punch of those posts I assumed some would be shocked.
> 
> ...



Wise words.

To Danny.


----------



## spoiledbroth (Feb 9, 2016)

SousVideLoca said:


> That's a pretty alarmist statement, that refutes a lot of what we know about the human condition after thousands of years of psychological study and introspection.


It would seem by and large that's not the consensus of the medical community, so I'm curious what exactly you're on about?


----------

