# Aogami Super



## WaTFTanaki (Aug 30, 2021)

I have had a Denka for 4 months and it’s in AS. It comes back to super sharp with so little effort on the stones that it’s scary. I assume a lot of this is heat treat, but also just received a Yoshikazu Tanaka AS 240 that is amazing. Too early to tell if it’s close to ease of refreshing the edge is comparable, but curious what other if any other gyutos in AS people are fans of, and how good the edge retention is & how easy they are to bring back to silly sharp. I saw a Nakagawa AS honyaki recently that is calling my name but it’s pricey. So am resisting.


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## Delat (Aug 30, 2021)

I have a Yu Kurosaki 210 in AS that I’m loving so far. Too early to tell on edge retention as I’ve only used it a few times, but it sharpens up quite easily. Also have a Hatsukokoro 240mm in AS, and a Y Kato 150mm petty in AS. 

I just got a Y Tanaka in White 2 that’s my first low-alloy steel, so very interested to see how it compares to AS.


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## WaTFTanaki (Aug 30, 2021)

Correction the honyaki was in Aogami dos. Sorry. Not AS


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## wombat (Aug 31, 2021)

In my admittedly limited experience, the knives I have which seem to take the nicest edge easily when sharpening are my two AS knives.


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2021)

With AS as with all steel types, all will depend on the preferences of the performer of the Heat Treatment. What was he aiming for? Two extremes with AS: the ones by Hiromoto, kept relatively soft, with a — relatively, again — coarser grain. Same steel, same idea: AS cladded in soft stainless in JCK's Deep Impact: much harder, finer grained. That grain size is only based on the stone feeling, so to be taken with a huge grain of salt – pun intended.


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## memorael (Sep 1, 2021)

I don't know whats up with AOSUP but I once sharpened a knife with made out of that steel and it popped my thumb like a grape. I recall, I think, Kramer once stating that blue steels are scary. Some steels are just waaaaaaaay more aggressive once sharpened than others. AOSUP and whatever a UX10 is made out of as well as the ginga line seems to want to chomp stuff up. AEBL feels like your cutting with a razor for perspective.


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## Benuser (Sep 1, 2021)

UX-10 is made of 19C27, equivalent to AEB-H, developed for industrial purposes as steel cutting. Highly abrasion resistant, with a lot of regularly distributed carbides who give it its 'bite', even when completely dull. Much loved by cooks who don't sharpen their own knives and have an aggressive idea of sharpness. 
Very different indeed from AEB-L or 13C26 which has a very fine almost carbon-like structure.


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## Receiver52 (Sep 1, 2021)

I have a Denka and a Y Tanaka in B1. Both get scary sharp. However, the Tanaka is my favourite knife on the stones of the 35 or 40 high end knives I own. The feel is almost buttery smooth with great feedback. I can get it back to super sharp on a Chosera 3000 in about 2 minutes.

I also have 2 Tanaka in white. I really like both of them on the stones but sharpen more often.

I also had a couple of AS Kurosakis which were also really easy to sharpen, got really sharp and held their edges for a long time.

AS is great steel but Tanaka’s Blue 1 is my personal preference.


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## btbyrd (Sep 1, 2021)

Benuser said:


> UX-10 is made of 19C27, equivalent to AEB-H, developed for industrial purposes as steel cutting. Highly abrasion resistant, with a lot of regularly distributed carbides who give it its 'bite', even when completely dull. Much loved by cooks who don't sharpen their own knives and have an aggressive idea of sharpness.
> Very different indeed from AEB-L or 13C26 which has a very fine almost carbon-like structure.



I have a UX10 120 petty that's my only knife in the steel. It's my most difficult knife to get sharp and I used to attribute that to the steel, but I'm more and more thinking it's the convexed and asymmetrical bevels that it comes with from the factory. I think I'll take it to some coarse and gnarly diamond plates to reset the bevels and see if I can get it thumb-poppingly sharp.

But back on topic, I have 2 Takedas in AS and a Yoshihiro petti in AS and they all take an edge very well. But so do all of my knives in Aogami 2, so I don't know how special AS is in this respect.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 2, 2021)

I like denka steel and also like the Shibata/Ikeda AS steel. I just ordered a Moritaka AS knife to find out how’s their steel doing. Blue 2 blue 1 blue super when done properly all take very aggressive edge easily IME.


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## zizirex (Sep 2, 2021)

Hinoura AS is also one of the nice and underrated ones. it's very easy to sharpen and holds an edge for quite a while.


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## Benuser (Sep 2, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> I have a UX10 120 petty that's my only knife in the steel. It's my most difficult knife to get sharp and I used to attribute that to the steel, but I'm more and more thinking it's the convexed and asymmetrical bevels that it comes with from the factory. I think I'll take it to some coarse and gnarly diamond plates to reset the bevels and see if I can get it thumb-poppingly sharp.


Misonos come out of the box with a weak, overly convexed edge. First thing I do is getting rid of it. The edge is clearly off-centered to the left and should stay so. I want the right bevel to form a continuous arc with the face, with a convex bevel ending at 10-12°. It can use quite some thinning. For the left side, a very narrow straight bevel of something like 18°. See if that balances the friction of both sides enough to make steering acceptable to you.





A Basic Explanation of Asymmetry


A Basic Explanation of Asymmetry Way back when I began sharpening I remember reading through many forum threads about asymmetry in double bevel knives and having no idea what was going on. All this talk about 70/30 and 80/20, "You should be doing this and shouldn't do that", but no real...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## dAtron (Sep 2, 2021)

Second the Hinoura AS i have gotten it scary sharp on a maruoyama shirostuita with minimal effort. I will never get rid of that knife. It does everything well.


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## Steampunk (Sep 2, 2021)

Aogami Super is one of my favorite steels to sharpen and use in the kitchen... As Benuser said, heat treat has a big impact on this stuff, but no matter the HT it always seems to take a killer edge. Super-aggressive, and shaving-sharp at almost all grits, with so little effort. How AS is heat treated can make it stone-sensitive, though. 

With Hiromoto's 61-62hrc HT, the stuff was a pussycat to sharpen and grind. It responded VERY well to Belgian stones (My J-Nats never resulted in as bite-y of an edge with this steel, though they could abrade it to an extent. Arks did even worse.), and - whilst it did get a bit toothier with hybrid edges - it didn't scream to have them. You could maintain the stuff without much issue on finer stones alone, with only a slight loss of tooth compared to a progression starting with a 1K-ish. 

Akifusa's 64-65hrc HT, by comparison, is a totally different animal. Belgian stones struggle to even touch it, let alone J-Nats, and it just skates on Arks. Hybrid, low-grit, or diamond edges are more of a necessity than a soft request. Some 2-6K+ synths can cut/touch it up without much trouble (Shapton Glass and Suehiro Cerax), but the loss of bite to the edge is abnormally severe going this high without diamond. Hybrid progressions, starting at no higher than 1K, and only lightly finishing on a 3-4K Shapton Glass HR is a great edge on this stuff. A 1K stone, followed by a diamond pasted strop is a great progression (It responds like a PM 'Super Steel' to this combo, getting super sharp/toothy. On 'normal' steels, this combo doesn't give anything like that level of sharpness/bite.). With this heat treat, AS is starting to feel like you need diamonds or a hybrid edge to go above the 1K level, but at or under 1K still responds great to AlOx. 

Also interestingly, the Hiromoto I can grind to near zero without much issue, but the Akifusa loses edge stability below about 0.007".

The interesting thing is, though, in the kitchen I see very little difference in edge retention between the two. Both are exceptional, but those extra points of hardness - whilst giving the steel a much 'glassier' feel, that feels nice to cut with - haven't bought it much when working with food in terms of retention unless you're chopping really heavily. Other makers might be able to get it up this hard without these side effects, but I wouldn't necessarily put much of a premium on AS needing to be super hard to get the best out of it.

Aogami Super is the carbon steel I trust the most to get me through a really big prep session, or if I'm cooking for a crowd. It'll lose its razor-edge around acids, but hold a toothy one (It actually starts feeling like it's developing more of a hacksaw-edge when exposed to hot meats, citrus, tomatoes, etc.) that will keep on cutting for a long time. It doesn't go smooth like even Aogami #2 does when cutting citrus or cooked red meat, let alone Shirogami. It won't cut herbs as cleanly, or shave hair anymore, but it won't stop cutting. It feels like it has your back, so to say. AS is the only carbon I've tried so far, that I'd still pick up, knowing I was about to supreme a bunch of grapefruits.

Combined with the wicked-aggressive, shaving-sharp edge it takes, without any deburring issues AT ALL, it's pretty amazing stuff. Right off the stones, the edges are better than R2/SG2, and it's a lot more fun to sharpen. R2/SG2 can hold those 'fresh off the stone' edges at least twice as long as Blue Super in the kitchen, since they don't experience acid dulling much at all, but both AS and R2/SG2 are top of the pack in terms of steels that can still sorta be sharpened on AlOx stones in terms of edge retention. Only better I've tried are things like HAP-40, or Elmax, which really start needing diamonds even at the 1K level to show their maximum keenness. Both AS and R2/SG2 can get away with AlOx around 1K, but can - sometimes - start to get fussy about needing harder abrasives above that point. This makes them much more accessible for people with cheaper stones. You can get AS to the 'Wow!' point and keep it there for about 60 bucks worth of gear. It's more like $120-300+ with HAP-40.


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## chefwp (Sep 2, 2021)

My only real experience with AS was a Shiro Kamo nakiri, I enjoyed that knife very much and appreciated its phenomenal edge retention and how it performed on a board full of carrots, scallions, or such.. I always will recommend that knife to someone new to nakiris and considering carbon, as you can still get them for cheap. I do have a Kurosaki 150mm petty in AS, but honestly I only ever use it for quick easy jobs like slicing a few tomatoes or processing a pint of strawberries, not enough to testify on its behalf.


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## captaincaed (Sep 3, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> both AS and R2/SG2 are top of the pack in terms of steels that can still sorta be sharpened on AlOx stones in terms of edge retention.



Are you inside my head? 

When I’m looking at overall knife life edge life-cycle, (sharpness, toothiness, versatility, ease of sharpening to a desired type of edge and maintaining), I’m really only looking at these two steels. I still enjoy Sukenari ZDP-189 for sheer long-term durability, but I recognize I’d be lost without a diamond stone. 

FWIW Asai AS was a phenomenal steel as well, but hard to find.


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## captaincaed (Sep 3, 2021)

@Steampunk since you’re thinking deeply about these things, where do you deploy very simple carbons steels, those analagous to Hitachi Shirogami? When I’m cooking in an eclectic western kitchen, I’m always switching ingredients and it’s hard to feel a strong draw to those simple steels that take keener edges that will blunt more quickly. Fresh herbs? Fish?


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## Delat (Sep 3, 2021)

I also have somehow gravitated to R2 and AS. My “workhorse” is a midweight Kamo in R2; I love that it’s tough and completely worry-free. Otherwise my last 3 purchases have been AS, although I just got a Tanaka in White #2. TBH I didn’t even notice it was white steel; I just saw “Tanaka” and “sale” and hit “add to cart”. Shame on me  I’m looking forward to see what I’m missing in a really simple steel, though.


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## Jason183 (Sep 3, 2021)

Simple steel liked shirogami is good at cutting raw fish meat or Sashimi, at least IME VS the Aogami super, sometimes I feel AS is too toothie for Sashimi that it will tear up the meat, unless you finish at a high grit stone, but then you shorten the edge retention.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 3, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> I have a UX10 120 petty that's my only knife in the steel. It's my most difficult knife to get sharp and I used to attribute that to the steel, but I'm more and more thinking it's the convexed and asymmetrical bevels that it comes with from the factory. I think I'll take it to some coarse and gnarly diamond plates to reset the bevels and see if I can get it thumb-poppingly sharp.


Hopefully I'm not derailing too much, but I just reprofiled a UX10 petty on a King Neo 800 and it was a piece of cake. Skates on my Shaptons, but no problem with an SiC stone. Weird how people are acting like if a steel can't be sharpened on AlOx, you must jump to a diamond stone. Don't forget that SiC can handle carbide-rich steels without the expense and potential micro-fracturing of diamond.


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## M1k3 (Sep 3, 2021)

Delat said:


> I’m looking forward to see what I’m missing in a really simple steel, though.


Not that much between AS and White. There is a difference that's noticeable, but, it's not like the difference between cheap stainless and good simple carbon. In my opinion.


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## btbyrd (Sep 3, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Hopefully I'm not derailing too much, but I just reprofiled a UX10 petty on a King Neo 800 and it was a piece of cake. Skates on my Shaptons, but no problem with an SiC stone. Weird how people are acting like if a steel can't be sharpened on AlOx, you must jump to a diamond stone. Don't forget that SiC can handle carbide-rich steels without the expense and potential micro-fracturing of diamond.



And not to further derail the thread, but Shaptons are all I have in coarse and medium grits apart from diamond stones. So my plan is to reshape the bevel with a coarse DMT, remove scratches with a SG500, and finish on a 1K JKI diamond stone. Anyway, AS is much easier and more fun to sharpen.


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## Delat (Sep 3, 2021)

chefwp said:


> I do have a Kurosaki 150mm petty in AS, but honestly I only ever use it for quick easy jobs like slicing a few tomatoes or processing a pint of strawberries, not enough to testify on its behalf.



I’ve fallen in love with using a 150 petty (Kato AS) for pull-cuts in thinner raw proteins like flank steak. The low, small blade just breezes through and I get a better angle when positioning for the pull since my counter + board are pretty high. I never really used a petty for anything but fruits before a couple months ago but wanted to try one on the steak after seeing a video from @stringer doing something similar.


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## Steampunk (Sep 3, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> @Steampunk since you’re thinking deeply about these things, where do you deploy very simple carbons steels, those analagous to Hitachi Shirogami? When I’m cooking in an eclectic western kitchen, I’m always switching ingredients and it’s hard to feel a strong draw to those simple steels that take keener edges that will blunt more quickly. Fresh herbs? Fish?



I feel similarly... Western diets today tend to feature a lot of acids, and simpler carbon alloys just do not hold up well against these.

Still, I've got some Shirogami #2, NOS Sabatier, 10xx, etc floating around...

I actually really quite like these simpler carbons when deboning chicken. You can put a real 'scalpel-like' edge on them (Translucent Arkansas edges are fun on Shirogami, as can some of the finer J-Nats.), which feels a little cleaner/more efficient to make the sorts of strategic incisions which one does when boning poultry. Still wouldn't be my pick if I had to do this all day on poly boards, but Honesuki's or petty's you're using with raw poultry in simple carbons feel really nice to use, and it doesn't tax the edge too much. If @RDalman did an assymetric or single bevel honyaki honesuki, with the way he treats his UHB20C, that would be pretty dang awesome! The stuff's surprisingly durable at extreme angles, and takes a screaming edge.

Fish, yes. Again, the edge character is nice with this, and if you're just doing it in super low volume or at home, it's a really good match. Shirogami #2 yanagi's and deba's can be found relatively cheaply, fixed up sufficiently as a fun project/kasumi practice, and for people who only sometimes eat fish that doesn't come out of a tin, and like sharpening, it fits the application. That, or a moderately thin, asymmetric Sakai sujihiki in Shirogami #2 will also do the trick to a lesser extent. A decent Frost fillet knife (They use 12C27, and heat treat it very well. It's much better than most of the 1.4116, X50, X55, and 420-series stainless you'll find.) can be picked up for a fraction of the price if you're an incidental user and used to the western filleting style, but I _really_ dislike sharpening flexy fillet knives, and even a cheap Yanagi and Deba (Which can have some frustrating grind problems out of the box, and might require one to have a stiff drink, and try fixing some warps.) are worth it to me.

If I finally pick up an Usuba to play with, it'll probably be in Shirogami. Again, because of the character of the edge for the application, and ability to support stupidly thin bevel geometries if done well.

I can't say that I've really liked using simple carbons so much when doing big piles of fresh herbs, for two reasons... One real, one silly... First, herbs typically require either high speed chopping, or some variant of rock chopping to process efficiently. There are gentler methods on the knives, but they're more methodical, and sometimes you've got to get a job done quickly. High-speed chopping needs edge stability, and I start seeing rolling on my thin, pure carbon edges even around 62hrc with this technique. ~65hrc might solve that issue, but I don't have any pure carbons at that kind of hardness. Rocking does a real number on both the soft European and harder Japanese ones alike in short order (Carbon Sabs seem to have the edge retention of Gruyere.), often killing any sharpness advantage they might have over more heavily alloyed blades... The second - silly - reason, is that since I pull these knives out so infrequently, they rarely have any patina on them anymore. So, if I just pull them out for herbs, herbs alone tend to give knives really ugly patinas. It just sort of annoys me, if I dedicated a knife to 'herbs only' duty, that I constantly had to polish and resharpen.

That said, if you know you'll have a big prep session involving mostly root veg, and have a knife that you really like the grind of that's in a simple carbon alloy, it's nowhere near as big of a deal as when you're throwing acidic ingredients, or portioning hot meats into the mix. Maybe you keep a longer stainless petty laying around for those jobs if they're only incidental, and you've got the space on the station... Not my ideal solution, but it can work... There are some really good knives made in 'straight' carbon alloys, and as much as I agree that they don't fit today's diets in the west too well anymore, it feels a shame when I let some really nice knives just sit in their boxes. 

Sorry for the ramble... Hope this helps.


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## chefwp (Sep 3, 2021)

Delat said:


> I’ve fallen in love with using a 150 petty (Kato AS) for pull-cuts in thinner raw proteins like flank steak. The low, small blade just breezes through and I get a better angle when positioning for the pull since my counter + board are pretty high. I never really used a petty for anything but fruits before a couple months ago but wanted to try one on the steak after seeing a video from @stringer doing something similar.


That is really interesting. For some reason I am having a hard time imagining slicing a flank steak with a knife that is shorter than the beef is wide. If you come across the video again I'd be interested in seeing it.


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## Delat (Sep 3, 2021)

chefwp said:


> That is really interesting. For some reason I am having a hard time imagining slicing a flank steak with a knife that is shorter than the beef is wide. If you come across the video again I'd be interested in seeing it.



I don’t have Stringer’s video but here’s one I made of me trying the technique. Where I pause and poke at the meat at the :20s mark is because I’m in disbelief that the meat is actually cut all the way through because I’m barely applying any pressure during the draw cuts.


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## Benuser (Sep 3, 2021)

About sharpening AS: got here the suggestion to start with a few light strokes on a medium coarse, say Chosera 400 (JIS 600). Not to remove a lot of steel. Contributes greatly to edge stability. Must have to with the tungsten carbides.That being said, if you can keep the blade thin enough behind the edge, that allows a conservative final edge without performance loss and leads to a remarkable edge retention. Best edge retention I've ever got was with JCK's Deep Impact (Rc 64-65) on crappy poly boards in a welfare kitchten.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 4, 2021)

Anyone used this before? Looks like a good package to me. Thick spine, thin edge, wide bevel, ss clad, nice profile, tall enough, not pricey.









Mutsumi Blue Super Kurouchi Nashiji Gyuto 240mm Ebony Handle


Brand: Mutsumi Hinoura 日野浦 睦Producing Area: Sanjo-Niigata/ JapanProfile: GyutoSize: 240mmSteel Type: Carbon SteelSteel: Blue Super Steel, Soft Stainless CladHandle: Ebony Pakka FerruleTotal Length: 399mmEdge Length: 245mmHandle to Tip Length: 257mmBlade Height: 51mmThickness: 4.68mmHandle...




www.aiandomknives.com


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## Qapla' (Sep 4, 2021)

Benuser said:


> About sharpening AS: got here the suggestion to start with a few light strokes on a medium coarse, say Chosera 400 (JIS 600). Not to remove a lot of steel. Contributes greatly to edge stability. Must have to with the tungsten carbides.That being said, if you can keep the blade thin enough behind the edge, that allows a conservative final edge without performance loss and leads to a remarkable edge retention. Best edge retention I've ever got was with JCK's Deep Impact (Rc 64-65) on crappy poly boards in a welfare kitchten.


What did you continue sharpening it with after the Chosera 400?


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## Benuser (Sep 4, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> What did you continue sharpening it with after the Chosera 400?


Depending on the mood: generally Chosera 800, followed by 2k or 3k, sometimes Junpaku 8k.
Sometimes skipping the 800 and going straight to the 2k. Shapton Pro 2k instead of Chosera 800, followed by Chosera 3k. Normally doing a full sharpening on the 800, with edge leading stropping and deburring. Never doing a _full_ sharpening on _all_ the next stones in the progression. Sometimes only stropping and/or deburring on an intermediate or final stone. This won't help you much further, I'm afraid!


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## KnightKnightForever (Sep 4, 2021)

I keep reading things about Denka quality control. If I’m dropping $800-$1000 on one of these, I’m expecting it to be dialed in…


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## dAtron (Sep 4, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Anyone used this before? Looks like a good package to me. Thick spine, thin edge, wide bevel, ss clad, nice profile, tall enough, not pricey.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't have a big collection but I have the 210mm and it's one of my favourite knives. I like it so much I am tempted to get the 240mm too. Easy to sharpen but also the edge lasts a long time. The spine becomes extremely thin towards the tip. Horizontal cuts through onions become effortless. It used to wedge a little bit on denser produce out of the box but since I flattened the bevel and it has become thinner I don't have major issues with wedging. Hope this helps


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 4, 2021)

dAtron said:


> I don't have a big collection but I have the 210mm and it's one of my favourite knives. I like it so much I am tempted to get the 240mm too. Easy to sharpen but also the edge lasts a long time. The spine becomes extremely thin towards the tip. Horizontal cuts through onions become effortless. It used to wedge a little bit on denser produce out of the box but since I flattened the bevel and it has become thinner I don't have major issues with wedging. Hope this helps


Thank you! That sounds really promising!


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## Geigs (Sep 5, 2021)

I have a handful of AS; I find the edge retention is pretty good and will get toothy rather than dull so can be easily refreshed with a few light passes on a mid grit stone. Just picked up a Yoshimitsu AS with a great blue lacquered handle, not sold on the grind but the steel is nice.


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## Dendrobatez (Sep 5, 2021)

Just don't get shibata AS, no edge retention at all. Old takedas had decent retention. AS seemed to get a razor sharp edge which was lost pretty quickly, then it'd hold a decent edge forever - a ceramic rod doesn't do much for it either.


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## zizirex (Sep 5, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Anyone used this before? Looks like a good package to me. Thick spine, thin edge, wide bevel, ss clad, nice profile, tall enough, not pricey.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Get it. It's good.

I really like his profile. His HT is also really good, but then again, it's more of a middleweight and not a looker, unlike his father.
He is very underrated because he is overshadowed by his father, but his stuff is probably one of the best in that ever come out of Japan.

I have 210 version and almost pulled the trigger for the 240 one, but i need money for vacation so maybe next time. i also want his Sujihiki.


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## zizirex (Sep 5, 2021)

Dendrobatez said:


> Just don't get shibata AS, no edge retention at all. Old takedas had decent retention. AS seemed to get a razor sharp edge which was lost pretty quickly, then it'd hold a decent edge forever - a ceramic rod doesn't do much for it either.


Funny my Shibata hold an edge pretty well and easily restore using a strop.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 5, 2021)

zizirex said:


> Get it. It's good.
> 
> I really like his profile. His HT is also really good, but then again, it's more of a middleweight and not a looker, unlike his father.
> He is very underrated because he is overshadowed by his father, but his stuff is probably one of the best in that ever come out of Japan.
> ...


Thanks. I already placed the order yesterday. Ai&Om found me one with a 5 mm spine and I think it’s gonna be a heavyweight as I hoped.


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## zizirex (Sep 5, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Thanks. I already placed the order yesterday. Ai&Om found me one with a 5 mm spine and I think it’s gonna be a heavyweight as I hoped.


Nice, since I already have a 240 Hinode I don't think I need another one with AS. But you'll never know.


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## shinyunggyun (Apr 22, 2022)

So Y. Tanaka, Takeda, and TF are the best with aogami super?


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## Bear (Apr 22, 2022)

I have both Y Tanaka(3) and Denka(1), Y Tanaka doesn't microchip as easily, becomes razor sharp. They are both comparable in price.


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## Pie (Apr 22, 2022)

I feel like we’re missing Takeda. His AS is ultra durable, edge retention is higher than denka, maybe for geometry reasons, and accepts toothiness very well. Different category of knife tho. 

The only issue I’m having with it is deburring sometimes. But that’s more of a me probpem I believe.

Edit - oops sry @shinyunggyun


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## blokey (Apr 22, 2022)

This thread reminds me I never tried AS steel...Probably should


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## zizirex (Apr 22, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> So Y. Tanaka, Takeda, and TF are the best with aogami super?


Maybe for now... I don't know how Shiraki's AS used to be (i saw it on youtube and said it's phenomenal ) and I haven't seen any Nakagawa AS.

The Takefu stuff is pretty lame compared to those 3 Blacksmith, I haven't tried Nihei AS and also Hinoura AS is better than the Takefu stuff definitely.


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## EricEricEric (Apr 22, 2022)

Anything Mazaki, guy is a genius


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## blokey (Apr 22, 2022)

EricEricEric said:


> Anything Mazaki, guy is a genius


Sometimes I just can't tell if Mazaki's really good or this is an inside joke...


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## SirCutAlot (Apr 24, 2022)

Mazaki is anything between a joke (heat treatment, profiles) and a genius (Single bevels) ...

Best profiled and cutting Gyuto i ever had was a Mazaki, but it did not hold an edge.... 


If you look for a cheap user look at Yoshimune/Tosa. The grinds are thin (but bad made just like Munetoshi) but forged well and the HT of their AS is wonderfull. With a little better grind (still as good as TF  )and a little more Sanyo like taper this would be a hit.

I love my 210 Gyuto, the perfect line knife for me. 

SirCutALot


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 24, 2022)

I really like my Akifusa in AS.


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## bradmacmt (Apr 24, 2022)

I currently have 3 AS knives, and have had at least as many in the past. It's great steel, and given the right heat treatment, holds a wicked edge. I think one of the finest buy's out there in AS is the Anryu KU line. I file and sand the choil and spine, which results in a superb knife for the money.


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## shinyunggyun (Apr 24, 2022)

Pie said:


> I feel like we’re missing Takeda. His AS is ultra durable, edge retention is higher than denka, maybe for geometry reasons, and accepts toothiness very well. Different category of knife tho.
> 
> The only issue I’m having with it is deburring sometimes. But that’s more of a me probpem I believe.
> 
> Edit - oops sry @shinyunggyun


How is the food release on the takeda?


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Apr 24, 2022)

I’ve tried the AS steel of TF, Shibata/ikeda, Moritaka, Mutsumi and Mazaki. Their edge life are all very good for a home user. Denka is my favorite steel out of these though, because it gets scary sharp in shortest sharpening time and it’s not picky about stones. I’ll have to try Y Tanaka AS sometime but given my experience with his blue 1 I think it’s gonna be sweet.


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## Pie (Apr 24, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> How is the food release on the takeda?


Top tier. Higher than top tier. Ridiculous.


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## shinyunggyun (Apr 24, 2022)

Pie said:


> Top tier. Higher than top tier. Ridiculous.


What about caveats? Is Takeda famous for overgrinds just like TF? Or not as bad?


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Apr 24, 2022)

Actually I also got a Takeda recently and sold it before I actually sharpen it. It is too thin and flexible for me to enjoy its well known AS steel.


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## McMan (Apr 24, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> What about caveats? Is Takeda famous for overgrinds just like TF? Or not as bad?


There's pretty extensive discussion of Takeda going back years on the forum. Search button'll be a helpful resource here.


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## Pie (Apr 25, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> What about caveats? Is Takeda famous for overgrinds just like TF? Or not as bad?


Short version: potentially wedgy and strange feeling. 

Different thinking behind the geometry. Also famous (and noted by the maker) for inconsistency. An over grind would be catastrophic, although I don’t think they’re very common.


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## Benuser (Apr 25, 2022)

McMan said:


> There's pretty extensive discussion of Takeda going back years on the forum. Search button'll be a helpful resource here.








What's the deal with Takeda knives?


Scandi grind, strange shapes, heart stamp - what makes them good? I've never tried (or wanted to try) them.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## ethompson (Apr 25, 2022)

Of the dozen or so nakiris I've owned the Takeda AS (iron clad) is the one I keep coming back to over and over again. Thin enough to not crack monster carrots, can leave an onion completely in place during dicing, exceptional steel (tied for my favorite steel alongside Takagi and Doi sr blue), and mine is way stiffer than you'd expect for something so light and thin. Mine came just before the transition to almost exclusively stainless clad which is also around when the blades became noticeably thicker. If I saw an AS come up with a thinner grind around here I'd buy it as a backup in a heartbeat.


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## Cliff (Apr 25, 2022)

I love my Takeda. It has otherworldly food release and holds an edge very well. I can see it being tougher than a Denka, because it's not as hard, though I've never really pushed either of them. But I have a hard time seeing the edge last longer. My Denka holds its edge forever.


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## Pie (Apr 25, 2022)

Cliff said:


> I love my Takeda. It has otherworldly food release and holds an edge very well. I can see it being tougher than a Denka, because it's not as hard, though I've never really pushed either of them. But I have a hard time seeing the edge last longer. My Denka holds its edge forever.


It’s a problem specific to my denka I believe, I ended up taking off too much steel prior to polishing so it’s wayyyyy too thin. Cuts like a demon, but ends up about 1.5 -2x the edge retention of my best whites.


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## henkle (Apr 26, 2022)

I only have one AS J knife in my small collection. It is a nakiri from Shiro Kamo's Shinko Seilan series. Love the way it cuts and sharpens.


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## labor of love (Apr 26, 2022)

Shinko Seilan (青岚) Gyuto 240mm KU Aogami Super by Shiro Kamo


You asked and I delivered. The Shinko Kurokumo and Syousin Suminagashi R2 are two very popular lines launched by K&S offering the work from a renowned knife maker: Shiro Kamo of Takefu Village. Many of you asked for a carbon variant from Kamo-san and mentioned to me that his Kurouchi Aogami...




www.knivesandstones.com.au





These are great knives, don’t think a better sub $200 AS gyuto exists.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Apr 27, 2022)

I agree you all regarding Takeda's AS. Excellent retention and food release with the benefit of a sturdy edge.
Excellent all around gyuto if you are ok with a lighter and a bit flexible gyuto.

Another steel that feels like the edge holds forever is W2 from Mario Ingoglia.
I used to have two honyakis from him and both had great retention.


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## Dan- (Apr 29, 2022)

Anyone have experience with Sukenari's AS, specifically in their suji?


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## ethompson (Apr 29, 2022)

I had one back in (2015ish maybe?) the day. It was crazy hard, I think 66-67 hrc. Had some weak sharpening skills then, but I remember it feeling a bit glassy but not being a real pain on the stones. Good edge retention. Felt really zippy on the board and had a distinct ting when going through paper. Felt fragile, but I can't ever remember anything other than a few very small micro-chips.


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## Dan- (Apr 29, 2022)

It looks like the one at K&S is a little softer than that. I was looking at it specifically for a non-KU blue suji with a heel height under 35mm.


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## shinyunggyun (Apr 30, 2022)

What other blacksmiths besides TF, heat treats aogami super very very high?


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## M1k3 (Apr 30, 2022)

Sukenari


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## Nemo (Apr 30, 2022)

Dan- said:


> Anyone have experience with Sukenari's AS, specifically in their suji?


Have the gyuto. The newer 65 hrc, not the previous 66hrc.

Edge retention seems a bit more than the softer Echizen AS. Probably more of an issue for a pro than a home user like me.

Mine needed a light thinning. Others have ones that didn't.

A good knife.


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## Cliff (Apr 30, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> What other blacksmiths besides TF, heat treats aogami super very very high?



Moritaka


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## Wagnum (May 1, 2022)

Moritaka AS sharpens so good. Easiest steel I've ever sharpened with one of the most wedgie grinds I've experienced in that price range


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## Cliff (May 1, 2022)

Mine definitely needed some thinning to get where I wanted


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## Jville (May 1, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> What other blacksmiths besides TF, heat treats aogami super very very high?


Definetely Moritaka, sukenari, and to my surprise the masakage kioshi I had the AS seemed very hard. It seemed much harder than other echizen AS knives that I had. I never had any Tanaka and Mazaki AS but having used both their blue I would expect them to be awesome and very hard.


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## ModRQC (May 1, 2022)

Deep Impact from JCK.


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## blokey (May 1, 2022)

What about Ikazuchi? Heard a lot of good things about them.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (May 1, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Deep Impact from JCK.


How does the steel feel? Looks quite cheap for what it is.


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## ModRQC (May 2, 2022)

My report on that would be obfuscated by it being my first AS, about two years ago, back when I was still learning the rudimentaries of sharpening... but I don't think HT was a problem with it. It was a bit rough F&F wise, then again not a problem for the price. Didn't have another AS until I knew my sharpening game a bit more satisfyingly. I'm fairly sure it was up to claims if comparing with my Sukenari AS. 

@Benuser would have at once a fresher and more lasting experience with it. He usually recommends it.


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## Benuser (May 2, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> How does the steel feel? Looks quite cheap for what it is.


Hard, very hard. Quite abrasion resistant as I experienced when sharpening out a OOTB microbevel. Fine grain. No brittleness at all. I start sharpening AS with a coarse stone — just a few light strokes. A trick we got from @Dave Martell. Contributes greatly to edge stability. 
Don't look for the lowest angles. Better have them as thin as possible behind the edge and add a conservative edge, and you will enjoy a remarkable edge retention. Have used them on crappy poly boards in a welfare kitchen, and it's the only ones that didn't suffer at all from it, the edge feeling just as smooth after the shift as when I started.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (May 2, 2022)

That’s great information. Gotta get one when it’s back in stock.


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## Benuser (May 2, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> That’s great information. Gotta get one when it’s back in stock.


One warning: sorry guys n gals, not for left-handers. Just as asymmetric as Hiromotos, standard Misonos and all others. The OOTB edge is symmetric but that doesn't mean anything. One of the good reasons to get rid of it. The core is just as clearly offset as with a Hiromoto. Left face flat, right one fat — helping with food release.


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## M1k3 (May 2, 2022)

blokey said:


> What about Ikazuchi? Heard a lot of good things about them.


I had one. Pretty thin, almost laser. Mine had this tiny bit of of hollow behind the edge. Which created some stiction. Convexing this area some and getting rid of the hollow greatly improved cutting feel dramatically. Steel isn't the hardest around, but felt harder than the few Takefu AS knives I've tried (but could just be in my head and they're equal ). The profile has a slight constant curve to it.


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## ModRQC (May 2, 2022)

With all due dilligence, it should be said that the approx. say "regular" HT for AS is around 63RC. You'll see a whole lot of the usual suspects there including Takefu Village. Then your harder ones are around 65RC. I don't think the in between nor the jump from one to another is something that would show so much so I'd rather peg the differences perceived as part of the HT. Of course, if your "around" 63RC finds itself to be a low 62RC, and your around 65RC is a full blown 66RC, then yeah the 4RC jump will show I believe.

Otherwise the relatively higher difficulty sharpening AS compared with the usual Carbon suspects or generally very fine grain steels stems from composition itself, and since it takes a shift in tempering and/or methodology/timing in quenching and whatnot to achieve the higher hardness, the resulting structure is probably more fundamentally different than perceived hardness on stones could be. And that's just isolating one point in itself as obvious among other possible variances I guess.

Since I seem to gather that, generally speaking, Takefu AS is perceived either as softer or sometimes inferior on stones, it's probably the consensus HT over there that makes most of that perception. And then possibly a metallurgist could argue that within the recommended range of a proper HT well carried, structure wouldn't shift so much as to be perceived in sharpening. Or possibly an experienced sharpener would say he can easily perceive both HT gradiants. What do I know that I could argue against them?

All kinds of things I may have said that are not accurate enough but the point I was making is to not particularly pay heed to the higher RC for AS as to the higher rep of the maker doing it. I've often seen Akifusa AS pegged as very good and hard, yet the RC claim for these is 63RC as well.

Good AS should be a very good steel either at 63 or 65RC. And indeed higher hardness correlates higher edge retention, but the leveling of 2RC coupled with very different user scenarios and the fact that, unless specifically buying everything AS to finely compare them with the most repeatable approach possible, what makes AS fame is rather the more direct comparison with regular Carbons, against which even 63RC is often an improvment in itself not counting in the extra carbides also explaining retention... I'd be very surprised of a user reporting AS endures less than his White steels and a bunch of A#2 as well.

That will probably still hold true even with the "abberations" you sometimes see of AS with something like 61RC claim - for example Futana SB Kuro. There I can't help but wonder why going the length at all of using AS... but still theoretically would probably tend to at least equalize even nice 62-63RC HT A#2 and Whites.


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## Barmoley (May 2, 2022)

Unless you actually measure hardness of different knives all the hardness numbers given by different manufacturers are highly suspect. Some don’t measure hardness and just give range based on the heat treat/tempering recipe. Combine this with many makers heat treating without precise, calibrated ovens and what can we really know? In addition, as Larrin and Shawn have shown same hardness can come with different toughness and microstructure for example. There is also processing that can be done to improve microstructure of the steel. Feel on the stones just isn’t a very good way to judge how hard the steel is, finer grained steel often feels better on stones even when harder. Something with thinner geometry is easier to get and keep sharp. All we can tell, if enough people use knives from the same manufacturer, is that that manufacturer does AS well or not well. Trying to attribute performance differences to stated hardness is futile in my opinion.


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## Nemo (May 3, 2022)

My understanding is that the HT for AS is a bit more complicated than for many other carbon steels. In particular, the W (tungsten) requires a prolonged soak time during HT to get it into solution so that it is available to form carbides.

I have no idea which of the makers do this or whether this correlates with hardness.


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## Troopah_Knives (May 3, 2022)

Nemo said:


> My understanding is that the HT for AS is a bit more complicated than for many other carbon steels.



It is a bit more complicated than say 1080 but I haven't seen any research saying that would suggest it is more difficult than steels 52100 or 26c3 or Aogami 2. In fact, @Larrin recommends the same HT ranges for AS as he does for Aogami 2 and a few other steels. There is some evidence that AS might benefit from processes like temper annealing which can help to keep carbon out of the solution and reduce the formation of plate martensite but I haven't seen anything suggesting that any company does this.



Nemo said:


> n particular, the W (tungsten) requires a prolonged soak time during HT to get it into solution



First, it is important to note that in unhardened AS W exists almost entirely in carbides so as you heat the steel that carbide disolves in order to put carbon in to the austenite to cause the steel to harden when it is quenched. While soak times are longer in some HSS to help dissolve carbides (I don't know about the specific rates for the MC W carbides vs other carbides but as you'll see further down it isn't strictly relevant) this is not the case for AS. In fact in the AS doesn't even form the same type of W carbides as HSS so the rates of solution are likely different anyway. 



Nemo said:


> so that it is available to form carbides.



You may be getting mixing HSS hardening mechanisms in here. In all steels the more carbide that is dissolved the less carbide volume there is. When tempered at high temperatures HSS will precipitate some of that dissolved tungsten back out to form carbides and harden the steel further but those carbides are too small to contribute to wear resistance in the way that existing carbides do.


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## Larrin (May 3, 2022)

The heat treatment of blue super is very simple. There are ways to optimize the heat treatment to enhance toughness, but none of the bladesmiths seem to be doing it. Blue super kitchen knives are brittle in general.


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## Nemo (May 3, 2022)

Thanks for correcting my misconception, guys.


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## shinyunggyun (Jun 9, 2022)

After having used both Takeda and Denka, I would have to say that the Denka is far superior. In fact, the Denka has the sharpest edge ever, and it really does hold its edge forever. Even after sharpening on a 6000 grit. The only reason why I would go back to blue 1 or blue 2 is because the denka’s profile is not the best. Now I’m really wondering how the y. Tanaka aogami super compares to Denka.


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## labor of love (Jun 9, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> After having used both Takeda and Denka, I would have to say that the Denka is far superior. In fact, the Denka has the sharpest edge ever, and it really does hold its edge forever. Even after sharpening on a 6000 grit. The only reason why I would go back to blue 1 or blue 2 is because the denka’s profile is not the best. Now I’m really wondering how the y. Tanaka aogami super compares to Denka.


After using TF maboroshi and Tanaka wh1 I thought to myself the Tanaka is not quite TF wh1 but it’s close enough and worth it to enjoy a blade that is complete and well made.

Edit: BTW this is a ringing endorsement of tanakas wh1 heat treatment


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## Pie (Jun 9, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> After having used both Takeda and Denka, I would have to say that the Denka is far superior. In fact, the Denka has the sharpest edge ever, and it really does hold its edge forever. Even after sharpening on a 6000 grit. The only reason why I would go back to blue 1 or blue 2 is because the denka’s profile is not the best. Now I’m really wondering how the y. Tanaka aogami super compares to Denka.


Until you have to smash through a pound of rosemary and don’t want to chip the denka.. 

Denka steel remains king to me, but Takeda makes a very close second. Although I’ve never chipped my denka, I feel much more confident thrashing around a Takeda gyuto. It doesn’t retain the sheer keenness of TF steel as long, but it maintains tooth and resists acid degradation pretty well from what I can tell. 

Sooooo @shinyunggyun, we just need to buy more knives in AS?  kurosaki, tanaka, y. Kato.. maybe next year’s project!


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## Barmoley (Jun 9, 2022)

If you haven’t chipped denka how can you claim chipping denka is an issue? You are basically saying that because you feel like chipping denka is easier that must mean it is, when in reality you don’t know. Neither do I. I just find it interesting when feelings are substituted as fact and then are presented as such.


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## refcast (Jun 9, 2022)

@Pie

It is easier to microchip the denka, with ultra tiny glints on the edge. Having chipped a 270mm denka on a poly board, cutting a crusty baguette, through almonds, through the hard part of garlic skins, cutting through a chicken drummete bone, and a denka 150mm deba on fish rib bones. All years ago for me.

It does stick into food easier -- and that keenness seems to mean that torque is applied at the very edge more, leading to more microchips. Less keen steels didn't stick as much and didn't have torque applied as much. I did think the denka steel wasn't super fragile, but it was toward that direction


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## shinyunggyun (Jun 9, 2022)

Pie said:


> Until you have to smash through a pound of rosemary and don’t want to chip the denka..
> 
> Denka steel remains king to me, but Takeda makes a very close second. Although I’ve never chipped my denka, I feel much more confident thrashing around a Takeda gyuto. It doesn’t retain the sheer keenness of TF steel as long, but it maintains tooth and resists acid degradation pretty well from what I can tell.
> 
> Sooooo @shinyunggyun, we just need to buy more knives in AS?  kurosaki, tanaka, y. Kato.. maybe next year’s project!


I’m just curious about the y. Tanaka. And I would have bought it already if I wasn’t so tired of y. Tanaka’s profile and if his AS knives weren’t so thick.


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## shinyunggyun (Jun 9, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> If you haven’t chipped denka how can you claim chipping denka is an issue? You are basically saying that because you feel like chipping denka is easier that must mean it is, when in reality you don’t know. Neither do I. I just find it interesting when feelings are substituted as fact and then are presented as such.


The Denka does chip. Especially if you sharpen it on something as high as 6000 grit. But mine just kept on going. And going. And going. And going. Like a terminator until you have completely destroyed it.


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## labor of love (Jun 9, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> I’m just curious about the y. Tanaka. And I would have bought it already if I wasn’t so tired of y. Tanaka’s profile and if his AS knives weren’t so thick.


Thick? Compared to TF? Bro you’re outta control


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## shinyunggyun (Jun 9, 2022)

labor of love said:


> Thick? Compared to TF? Bro you’re outta control


It’s true. Tanaka’s aogami super knives are much thicker than his blue 1 knives. And the Denka that I have is thinner than the average Denka.


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## labor of love (Jun 9, 2022)

Yeah but real sharpeners grind tanakas knives. But it sounds like you know what you want, don’t let me stand it your way.


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## superworrier (Jun 9, 2022)

labor of love said:


> Yeah but real sharpeners grind tanakas knives. But it sounds like you know what you want, don’t let me stand it your way.


Just because a sharpener is blind and one-handed doesn't they're not a real sharpener!


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## shinyunggyun (Jun 9, 2022)

labor of love said:


> Yeah but real sharpeners grind tanakas knives. But it sounds like you know what you want, don’t let me stand it your way.


It doesn’t matter if it was myojin who grinded it or a retard who grinded it. If it works, it works.


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## superworrier (Jun 9, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> It doesn’t matter if it was myojin who grinded it or a retard who grinded it. If it works, it works.


Hopefully the Denka I have on order is somewhere in between.


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## Barmoley (Jun 9, 2022)

refcast said:


> Yy@Pie
> 
> It is easier to microchip the denka, with ultra tiny glints on the edge. Having chipped a 270mm denka on a poly board, cutting a crusty baguette, through almonds, through the hard part of garlic skins, cutting through a chicken drummete bone, and a denka 150mm deba on fish rib bones. All years ago for me.
> 
> It does stick into food easier -- and that keenness seems to mean that torque is applied at the very edge more, leading to more microchips. Less keen steels didn't stick as much and didn't have torque applied as much. I did think the denka steel wasn't super fragile, but it was toward that direction


Easier than what? Any steel/knife can be chipped given the right geometry and actions.


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## labor of love (Jun 9, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> It doesn’t matter if it was myojin who grinded it or a retard who grinded it. If it works, it works.


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## Pie (Jun 9, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> If you haven’t chipped denka how can you claim chipping denka is an issue? You are basically saying that because you feel like chipping denka is easier that must mean it is, when in reality you don’t know. Neither do I. I just find it interesting when feelings are substituted as fact and then are presented as such.


You are 100% correct about this. I’ve deformed the edge and done some slight degree of damage but haven’t actually taken a physical piece out of it. I suppose I’ve made the assumption it chips easier, as My experiences have shown it suffers more damage than the Takeda edge through similar use. 

Words must be chosen with more care around here , and rightfully so .


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## refcast (Jun 9, 2022)

Easier to chip than simple steels, or those at lower hardnesses, since toughness is inversely related to hardness. Some alloy helps with toughness or grain refinement, geometry compared was not exactly the same of course


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## Barmoley (Jun 9, 2022)

Pie said:


> You are 100% correct about this. I’ve deformed the edge and done some slight degree of damage but haven’t actually taken a physical piece out of it. I suppose I’ve made the assumption it chips easier, as My experiences have shown it suffers more damage than the Takeda edge through similar use.
> 
> Words must be chosen with more care around here , and rightfully so .


l can’t possibly know, but from what you say it sounds like denka had thinner geometry than takeda, since it is generally agreed that takeda AS is not heat treated as hard as denkas. Of course with your particular examples this might not be true.


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## Cliff (Jun 10, 2022)

I've got both a Takeda and a Denka. While I love the Takeda, I don't think the steel is on the same level. I don't think the Denka is chippy, but I've never really pushed it. It holds an edge much longer than the Takeda. For me, the distinctiveness of Takeda is in the grind more than the steel. I don't see a big difference from the edges on that knife and my Echiezen AS knives from Kanehiro and Kurosaki.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 10, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> After having used both Takeda and Denka, I would have to say that the Denka is far superior. In fact, the Denka has the sharpest edge ever, and it really does hold its edge forever. Even after sharpening on a 6000 grit. The only reason why I would go back to blue 1 or blue 2 is because the denka’s profile is not the best. Now I’m really wondering how the y. Tanaka aogami super compares to Denka.


Hate to admit it, but the difference between Denka steel and other AS steels is bigger than I thought. Denka got so much sharper in a short time than other AS steels and stay sharp for at least as long, especially the initial sharpness. I have difficulty in making Hinoura AS and Shibata AS as sharp as Denka given my stones. Probably need diamond plates for those 2. Mazaki AS is closer but still not as sharp and Mazaki’s retention doesn’t feel as strong (maybe the difference in initial sharpness plays a role here). Moritaka AS is the closest thing to Denka but still takes more time to get sharp. My Toyama blue 2 gets as sharp or sharper easily and hold the initial edge longer than other blue 2s but the retention is not comparable to AS steels. Hate to admit it but since my Denka is 5 mm thick and 55 mm tall, if it has more distal taper on the spine it could be a perfect workhorse.


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## Cliff (Jun 10, 2022)

Yes on Moritaka. I love the steel. It is the closest I've tried to my Denka. I would love to try Sukenari, but I gather they are not making them anymore.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 10, 2022)

Cliff said:


> Yes on Moritaka. I love the steel. It is the closest I've tried to my Denka. I would love to try Sukenari, but I gather they are not making them anymore.


I’m curious about Sukenari. I think K&S NY might still have something left but I couldn’t pull the trigger as I’m not into their style of grind.


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## shinyunggyun (Jun 10, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Hate to admit it, but the difference between Denka steel and other AS steels is bigger than I thought. Denka got so much sharper in a short time than other AS steels and stay sharp for at least as long, especially the initial sharpness. I have difficulty in making Hinoura AS and Shibata AS as sharp as Denka given my stones. Probably need diamond plates for those 2. Mazaki AS is closer but still not as sharp and Mazaki’s retention doesn’t feel as strong (maybe the difference in initial sharpness plays a role here). Moritaka AS is the closest thing to Denka but still takes more time to get sharp. My Toyama blue 2 gets as sharp or sharper easily and hold the initial edge longer than other blue 2s but the retention is not comparable to AS steels. Hate to admit it but since my Denka is 5 mm thick and 55 mm tall, if it has more distal taper on the spine it could be a perfect workhorse.


Exactly. The only other aogami super that can compete with Denka is y. Tanaka. Evan from strata told me that both Tanaka and Denka are heat treated to 67-68 hrc, which explains why my denka holds its edge longer than zdp 189. But somehow, y. Tanaka magically made his aogami super not as brittle. If he ever made a thin aogami super knife, I would get it.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 10, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> Exactly. The only other aogami super that can compete with Denka is y. Tanaka. Evan from strata told me that both Tanaka and Denka are heat treated to 67-68 hrc, which explains why my denka holds its edge longer than zdp 189. But somehow, y. Tanaka magically made his aogami super not as brittle. If he ever made a thin aogami super knife, I would get it.


I don’t think it’s just the hrc. I like the idea of interpreting it by a single hrc number but I feel like there’s something more into it. I mean Denka feels less glassy on the stone than even those AS with an hrc < 65. And Denka is not much brittler than other AS. It is actually not that brittle IME. How can that be if denka’s hrc is 67-68? If I have to guess I think Denka’s hrc is no more than the 63-65 range based on feeling on stones and toughness. Moritaka reported their hrc as 64-65 and I feel like their steel is little harder than Denka on the stone tbh.


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## shinyunggyun (Jun 10, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I don’t think it’s just the hrc. I like the idea of interpreting it by a single hrc number but I feel like there’s something more into it. I mean Denka feels less glassy on the stone than even those AS with an hrc < 65. And Denka is not much brittler than other AS. It is actually not that brittle IME. How can that be if denka’s hrc is 67-68? If I have to guess I think Denka’s hrc is no more than the 63-65 range based on feeling on stones and toughness. Moritaka reported their hrc as 64-65 and I feel like their steel is little harder than Denka on the stone tbh.


The fact that the Denka can hold its edge for that long alone proves how high of a heat treatment it has. There is no other explanation for how it can hold its edge for so long.


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## chefwp (Jun 10, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> It is actually not that brittle IME. How can that be if denka’s hrc is 67-68?.


My guess is that while it may not seem like it, it is in fact brittle, you just don't encounter the usual consequences (chipping) because it is not thin.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 10, 2022)

chefwp said:


> My guess is that while it may not seem like it, it is in fact brittle, you just don't encounter the usual consequences (chipping) because it is not thin.


My previous Denka was thinned to zero edge with a thickness of 0.05 mm right above the microbevel. Many steels won’t hold up with that type of thin edge but the Denka was doing ok. I’ve thinned many knives to zero edge and Denka is actually on the better side.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 10, 2022)

The only TF microchipping (Denka and Man) I've seen is when the factory edge is left intact. The grind is quite rough and uneven and this contributes to the issue. A few mins on an Okuda Suita and the edge is ultra keen and stable. This has never chipped.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 10, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> The fact that the Denka can hold its edge for that long alone proves how high of a heat treatment it has. There is no other explanation for how it can hold its edge for so long.


I don’t know. I just shoot TF an email asking about HRC. Let’s see if we can get an answer from them directly.


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## Barmoley (Jun 10, 2022)




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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 10, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I don’t know. I just shoot TF an email asking about HRC. Let’s see if we can get an answer from them directly.


Impossible to really know. TF doesn't test every knife, and I'd be surprised if any hardness testing has been done for many years, if at all. For them its all done by eye and experience, which undoubtedly leads to quite a bit of variation. Not a lot of scientifically controlled processes unlike some Western makers eg Trey with his thermocoupled, computer controlled system.


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## M1k3 (Jun 10, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I don’t think it’s just the hrc. I like the idea of interpreting it by a single hrc number but I feel like there’s something more into it. I mean Denka feels less glassy on the stone than even those AS with an hrc < 65. And Denka is not much brittler than other AS. It is actually not that brittle IME. How can that be if denka’s hrc is 67-68? If I have to guess I think Denka’s hrc is no more than the 63-65 range based on feeling on stones and toughness. Moritaka reported their hrc as 64-65 and I feel like their steel is little harder than Denka on the stone tbh.


Sukenari used to do they're AS that high. They had chipping issues, so backed down the HRC a little. I'd guess lower than 67-68, but higher than 62-64... but, just a guess.


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## TokushuKnife (Jun 10, 2022)

labor of love said:


> Shinko Seilan (青岚) Gyuto 240mm KU Aogami Super by Shiro Kamo
> 
> 
> You asked and I delivered. The Shinko Kurokumo and Syousin Suminagashi R2 are two very popular lines launched by K&S offering the work from a renowned knife maker: Shiro Kamo of Takefu Village. Many of you asked for a carbon variant from Kamo-san and mentioned to me that his Kurouchi Aogami...
> ...


Shiro Kamo is awesome! If you can find a Moritaka AS Knife under $200, they have one of the best heat treats. They also make their own material and use low temp warikomi to minimize carbon transfer from the core steel to the cladding. lt's a difference you can feel when sharpening a Doi, Moritaka, or TF.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 10, 2022)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Impossible to really know. TF doesn't test every knife, and I'd be surprised if any hardness testing has been done for many years, if at all. For them its all done by eye and experience, which undoubtedly leads to quite a bit of variation. Not a lot of scientifically controlled processes unlike some Western makers eg Trey with his thermocoupled, computer controlled system.





M1k3 said:


> Sukenari used to do they're AS that high. They had chipping issues, so backed down the HRC a little. I'd guess lower than 67-68, but higher than 62-64... but, just a guess.


From TF’s official website, they temper at 180C for 45 minutes. Based on the Hitachi heat treat manual, that’s corresponding to an HRC 64 to 65.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 10, 2022)

TokushuKnife said:


> Shiro Kamo is awesome! If you can find a Moritaka AS Knife under $200, they have one of the best heat treats. They also make their own material and use low temp warikomi to minimize carbon transfer from the core steel to the cladding. lt's a difference you can feel when sharpening a Doi, Moritaka, or TF.


I got my 270 Moritaka AS gyuto from them directly for only 20,550 JPY including shipping. It was less than $190 at the time last year and only $153 with the current exchange rate. I installed a $60 KnS handle on it and still below $250 all costs combined. Truly good value.


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## Troopah_Knives (Jun 10, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> l can’t possibly know, but from what you say it sounds like denka had thinner geometry than takeda, since it is generally agreed that takes a AS is not heat treated as hard as denkas. Of course with your particular examples this might not be true.


Could also be in the HT. I doubt it, but it's possible they avoid some or all plate martensite by doing a temper anneal or other pre-quench treatments.


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## chefwp (Jun 10, 2022)

henkle said:


> I only have one AS J knife in my small collection. It is a nakiri from Shiro Kamo's Shinko Seilan series. Love the way it cuts and sharpens.


I used to have one of those too. The edge retention was amazing, super value for the $$.


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