# Western knives



## rami_m (Jan 22, 2017)

Well, I have been cruising the site looking st some of the beginner recommendations when a particular thought came to me. 

In what circumstances are western knives better than Japanese? There seem to be a bit of a Japanese bias to the forum ( however justified) but still it can't be the best recommendation for everything, can it?


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## bkultra (Jan 22, 2017)

There is no best just personal preferences, it just happens that birds of a feather flock together. I will say that my Burke has opened my eyes to a few things.


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## hambone.johnson (Jan 22, 2017)

I'll get back to you in about 4 months...

I'm actually kinda cold on the whole Japanese knives and have never tried anything vintage. The production demands that I have at work are also not what they used to be so I have decided to rework my work kit to "new old stock" sabatiers and the like. I have a couple being delivered this week. I like the price point and I'll be curious to see what they are like compare to Japanese steel.

My custom collection is mostly USA and Australian based makers and most of the contracts that I have for 2017 and beginning of 2018 are the same so collecting wise use and have a lot of western stuff.


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## rami_m (Jan 22, 2017)

bkultra said:


> There is no best just personal preferences, it just happens that birds of a feather flock together. I will say that my Burke has opened my eyes to a few things.



Fair enough, replace best by better in my question above. Personally I am thinking I should be a meat cleaver for those time I want to chop semi-frozen food. As none of my Japanese knives can deal with that and I can't plan ahead all the time.


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## rami_m (Jan 22, 2017)

hambone.johnson said:


> I'll get back to you in about 4 months...
> 
> I'm actually kinda cold on the whole Japanese knives and have never tried anything vintage. The production demands that I have at work are also not what they used to be so I have decided to rework my work kit to "new old stock" sabatiers and the like. I have a couple being delivered this week. I like the price point and I'll be curious to see what they are like compare to Japanese steel.
> 
> My custom collection is mostly USA and Australian based makers and most of the contracts that I have for 2017 and beginning of 2018 are the same so collecting wise use and have a lot of western stuff.



Will be interested to hear your thoughts, will be going no where soon . To be honest I would lump custom makers within Japanese category as they base their designs on Japanese profiles grinds etc. ( not talking about handles of course), Let just say custom makers are hybrids.


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## Ruso (Jan 22, 2017)

I think its based on the simple quality/price equation. Mostly all good western makers are quite more expensive.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 22, 2017)

More of a bias towards makers that take steel and blades seriously - and most of them seem to be in Japan, especially when looking at medium-scale to mass production  Custom/boutique makers seem to be everywhere, but businesses that produce top grade kitchen cutlery in series - apparently, a handful in the US, a handful in Germany, a handful in France, a handful in the rest of Asia, but a handful of handfuls of handfuls in Japan


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## rami_m (Jan 22, 2017)

Not sure that's true. You are thinking that thin behind the edge blades are the best for all applications. I would think that some thicker edge knives have their uses.


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## hambone.johnson (Jan 22, 2017)

rami_m said:


> Will be interested to hear your thoughts, will be going no where soon . To be honest I would lump custom makers within Japanese category as they base their designs on Japanese profiles grinds etc. ( not talking about handles of course), Let just say custom makers are hybrids.




Very true about the custom makers .. 

I'll be really curious as well, it just comes to a change in pace of knives at work. I've used Japanese knives for a long time but like I said now that I am not living and dying by my knife skills I would rather put the money into my yearly customs budget and just have a couple of decent sharp knives for daily use. Even the amount of knives I carry is down to like 3 or 4 a day, including all shapes.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 22, 2017)

Neither do I think everything needs to be thin behind the edge, nor do the japanese:

http://www.tanebocho.com/products/Yakushika-Deer-Bone-Cleaver.html 

or any yo-deba.

And there are very thin German knives (Herder and Schanz).

The prejudice we have about most mainstream western makers is that they'd use a thick edge on 56HRC dishwasher-proof throw-a-bit-of-everything-on-the-periodic-table-in steel, and a plastic handle, on a cleaver for unsanitary butchering conditions. And that they'd do just the same on a knife used for julienning aromatics thread fine.


....

A western HANDLE might be better if hygiene requirements prohibit any open wood.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2017)

What about a western deba? I seen to remember a video of theory conducting chicken carnage with one some time ago.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 22, 2017)

Or maybe it is us being kind of japanese style. Most here cook, as professionals or serious amateurs, and started being geeks about cutlery because they realized it is the most important kind of tool for their style of cooking - and that the standard of cutlery where they live is insufficient or suboptimal. Thinking of cutting as the quintessential cooking task, this mentality is the true japanese import here, not the knives.

Sorry to repeat my abstraction: Separating the unpalatable from the palatable of your ingredients, cook's job 

Not everyone here is even fond of japanese cuisine, but the mentality is extendable to other cooking fields - be it general asian cuisine (think spoon and chopstick ready food!) that often puts all the knifework with the cook, be it the french with their formal garnishes, be it bakery where there can be boatloads of fruit to process for fillings, be it all kinds of trying to get the most out of expensive fish or meats...


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## rami_m (Jan 22, 2017)

chinacats said:


> What about a western deba? I seen to remember a video of theory conducting chicken carnage with one some time ago.



Well. I feel that the western deba is the Japanese interpretation of a thick behind the edge western knife.


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## rami_m (Jan 22, 2017)

@lifebya1000cuts 
Yea but the general impression is japanese = thin, German = thick. That may not be always true and there the always exceptions, however I was making a broad brush statement to get ideas and get a discussion going. 

In regards to cooking, there are plenty of cooks who don't care about the knifework. My wife for example wouldnt care how even her dice is, it would all end up in a stew anyway. I am sure she is wrong but I wouldn't tell her that. People are allowed to have different philosophies after all. And I agree some dishes are much better with decent knife work but for some it wouldn't make a difference.


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## rami_m (Jan 22, 2017)

Ps. I don't know about the mainstream western makers as I never had one, not about to waste money on that either.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 22, 2017)

@rami_m of course. I think these cooks are just not plenty on this forum  And she's not wrong if her recipes (intentionally or not) take her dicing style into account - if however, they had a step like "fry aromatics hotter than hell", uneven dice would cause half to burn and half to stay raw - which however might be intentional  And with a stew, how the ingredients are prepped defines the presentation very early on, no?

Would be interesting to know who buys more yo-debas - japanese that want to use western style technique, or westerners that like japanese tools?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 22, 2017)

@rami_m oh, they are busy misunderstanding japanese ideas, which ends up in german profile chef knives with a 12dps edge in 66HRC steel, or a 10dps nakiri in 58HRC


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## Chef_ (Jan 22, 2017)

When it comes to knives, Japanese just do it better.


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## rami_m (Jan 23, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> When it comes to knives, Japanese just do it better.



Well. I think the cleaver user mob disagrees with you. . I am not about to argue with anyone yielding a cleaver. 

Here is an interesting point, the Japanese do it one way, specialised tools of every ingredient ( almost [emoji6]), the Chinese use a single tool for everything. The French have a different system all together. Is there anything useful to pick up from other traditions?


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## Chef_ (Jan 23, 2017)

rami_m said:


> Well. I think the cleaver user mob disagrees with you. . I am not about to argue with anyone yielding a cleaver.
> 
> Here is an interesting point, the Japanese do it one way, specialised tools of every ingredient ( almost [emoji6]), the Chinese use a single tool for everything. The French have a different system all together. Is there anything useful to pick up from other traditions?



yeah thats cool and all, but my point stands.


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## malexthekid (Jan 23, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> yeah thats cool and all, but my point stands.



Sure it does..... to you


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## Chef_ (Jan 23, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Sure it does..... to you



I have a feeling most people here would agree with me. Even if they say they dont, i aint seeing collections of mercers and wusthofs on peoples knife racks.


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## kevpenbanc (Jan 23, 2017)

Not too sure what you mean by western Rami.

To me it means softer steel and less edge holding.
In general they tend to be thicker, but there are exceptions.

I think the consensus of the forum is that japanese knives are better cutters, but there are always exceptions. 

People have recommended western knives at times, but the majority of site users find that japanese style blades (harder and thinner) are better, or maybe preferred would be a better term.

I guess the answer to the original query is that the majority of the forum feel that japanese style blades are better, and that reflects in the recommendations.

Do you have a different interpretation of western knives??


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## rami_m (Jan 23, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> I have a feeling most people here would agree with me. Even if they say they dont, i aint seeing collections of mercers and wusthofs on peoples knife racks.



I would see Kramers, henckels and a few sabatiers. I can also put in the argument the gyuto is a western knife. I am not really talking about quality here. The Japanese work ethic and perfectionism is known. I am just trying to get an interesting discussion going. 

Fine I agree, Japanese knives are best in professional kitchens. Home users that have professionals skills ( care and sharpening ) don't count , we are a very small part of the population. 

So,
In what circumstances would Japanese STYLE knives not excel and other knife types come to their own. 

is there no more innovation anymore? We are at the beak of human perfection?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

"specialised tools of every ingredient" is just as common in French/German... ever seen a full line Wüsthof display at a German kitchen store?


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## Eloh (Jan 23, 2017)

If the task at hand is to cut tons of mirepoix on a plastc cutting board then a superthin behind the edge shirogami Gyuto wouldnt probably be my first choice either. For this task i might prefer a vintage carbon Dick or Sabatier chef knife that i can quickly touch up on a steel...
And that's basically the western tradition, softer steels that you can touch up on a steel for a good while with decent results. For basic sharpening and thinning you have (or had) professional sharpeners you give your knives to every other month.

Modern western knives are just thicker, stainless, and soft because by far the biggest market for henckels etc are housewives who want an indestructible knife that you can put in a dish washer. Cutting performance is usually just an afterthought 


You also have exceptions to the rule, like the Herder 1922 Chef's knife for example, wich is actually remiscent of a traditional German chefs knife from back in the day: medium hardnes, relatively thin, carbon steel....


Eventhough i generally prefer Japanese Knives there's also things to criticize, for example the often suboptimal Heat Treatment because they stick to old traditions and don't use modern technolgies to optimize the process. The traditional aspect is kinda cool of course, but they do not get the best possible results out of their steel. Of course there are exceptions to that rule too...


...just a few thoughts to fuel the discussion


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## Mucho Bocho (Jan 23, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> When it comes to knives, Japanese just do it better.



Conjecture much?


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## chefcomesback (Jan 23, 2017)

I tend to stay away from threads like these since my opinions may be seen as biased since I am a "non Japanese maker " but I have used enough knives from both Japanese and non Japanese to have an educated opinion 
"western knives more expensive"
Sure Japanese knives offer the best bang for the buck under 300 , I constantly recommend few Japanese blades to people who don't have the budget for a custom but
Let's not compare apples to oranges, most of the non Japanese custom makers are single person operations with the exception of few where in Japan it is semi production with at least the handles being outsourced 
I wish I could make a phone call and say 40 ebony , 60 ho please .. 
In some cases brands are abstract since the blades are forged , heat treated, ground , sharpened, engraved and handled by different people. Non Japanese makers have to do all in house and by themselves and have to be great at it . That means purchasing the equipment to do the the job and also learning the aspects of other crafts like forging , handle making, saya making , polishing, sharpening,
Also due to the low volume non Japanese makers pay premium for the raw materials, especially steels 
While you may not care about the handle material cost most non Japanese makers use premium materials at 30-40$ at least block wood. A Japanese brand was charging 200$ more for ironwood scales , if any non Japanese maker asked that they would be out of business 
Keep in mind most of non Japanese knives are hand finished which takes considerable labour compared to machine finish , last time I checked watanabe was asking %50 for his version of "mirror polish " , many non Japanese makers offer that finish without an extra charge and don't even call mirror finish 
"Western makers don't understand Japanese concepts " have you looked around enough? 
Carbon San mai , you may want to check Bryan Raquin for his super nice Kuro uchi and Will catheside for
His forged geometries , they are getting serious life from the die hard Japanese knife users . 
"Western makers are thick behind the edge "
Right , you haven't used one of Bills knives then 
"German knives are soft , thick "
Let me clarify, if you talk about mass produced stuff yes that May be true but Tillman and Xerxes who are also happened to be German and are producing very good knives which are not so soft
"Western knives don't cut well " 
Many non Japanese makers including myself will happily provide a knife to change your bias , despite the risk of one of our blades going missing pass arounds are still offered 
"Japanese are better " you made your mind up , i have no intention to change it 
Keep in mind guys we are a minority, we take pride in our tools and trying to find a better steel , better profile , better knife led us to our hobby . There are millions who will cut frozen stuff on their glass cutting boards and then throw their knives to dishwasher or leave it in sink . Most of the products in market are not aimed at us 
For anyone who is not going to take care of their knives as well as we do mass produced knives are way to go 
Most of the problems and reputation shun is getting is due to the problem people treat them like they would their henckels , wusthofs . Wiping blades is still chore to some . I recommend them western blades in these cases


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## kevpenbanc (Jan 23, 2017)

I guess it comes down to the definition of western knives.
I class the western custom makers as 'japanese style' knife makers as they produce knives with similar characteristics, at least the ones I'm familiar with.





chefcomesback said:


> I tend to stay away from threads like these since my opinions may be seen as biased since I am a "non Japanese maker " but I have used enough knives from both Japanese and non Japanese to have an educated opinion
> "western knives more expensive"
> Sure Japanese knives offer the best bang for the buck under 300 , I constantly recommend few Japanese blades to people who don't have the budget for a custom but
> Let's not compare apples to oranges, most of the non Japanese custom makers are single person operations with the exception of few where in Japan it is semi production with at least the handles being outsourced
> ...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

@chefcomesback is it helpful to compare custom/boutique american makers to "small industry" japanese makers?


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## cheflarge (Jan 23, 2017)

What Chefcomesback said!!! :goodpost: lus1: For anyone who has not used a custom Tansu knife, I challenge you to find a better knife, of equal value, anywhere, period.

To me it is all subjective. What works for me, may not work for you.


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## chefcomesback (Jan 23, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @chefcomesback is it helpful to compare custom/boutique american makers to "small industry" japanese makers?



I didn't narrow it down to USA , there are passionate and talented makers every where, the difference comes from making things to the order one by one vs having a semi production line . Even the most respected Japanese smiths have a production line , I haven't seen any of them do meteorite Damascus with gold inlay or special pattern Damascus with snakes in it etc , not questioning their technical abilities or claiming they can't , they seem to be doing more streamlined versions of the knives in bigger quantities , when you do things to order
You can't produce as many since you are running on different specs with each order or shape or steel or
Profile , handle etc


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## TheCaptain (Jan 23, 2017)

cheflarge said:


> What Chefcomesback said!!! :goodpost: lus1: For anyone who has not used a custom Tansu knife, I challenge you to find a better knife, of equal value, anywhere, period.
> 
> To me it is all subjective. What works for me, may not work for you.



I've never tried a Tansu knife but I will back anything by Butch Harner as far as western style knives go.


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## v647c (Jan 23, 2017)

For joint and seam boning I'd go for a Western knife because I do it better with them. For anything else I prefer Japanese style knives.


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## merlijny2k (Jan 23, 2017)

I think it is the 'losing advantage' principle. In the west we figured out something that works quite well (softer steel and honing rod) and so stopped looking for something even better, got stuck in a localized maximum to put it mathematically. Also the Japanese have been more open to adopting Western idea's (french chef knife profile, yo handles) than vice versa. And i think Japan has the advantage of having a large domestic market of 150 dollar plus knives, perhaps rivalled by the US, i wouldn't know but not anywhere else.


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## merlijny2k (Jan 23, 2017)

Not talking small makers of course just factory made.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

Who is doing semi-industrial production, kitchen focused, in the US? Only Carter, and maybe a few like Cut Brooklyn or New West Knife Works come to mind ... and some makers that are mostly into pocket/outdoor/combat knives but have taken up some kitchen stuff on the side...

I might be ignorant there, I'm not from the US....


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## Eloh (Jan 23, 2017)

merlijny2k said:


> I think it is the 'losing advantage' principle. In the west we figured out something that works quite well (softer steel and honing rod) and so stopped looking for something even better, got stuck in a localized maximum to put it mathematically. Also the Japanese have been more open to adopting Western idea's (french chef knife profile, yo handles) than vice versa. And i think Japan has the advantage of having a large domestic market of 150 dollar plus knives, perhaps rivalled by the US, i wouldn't know but not anywhere else.



That's one way to look at it. On the other hand there is hardly any demand for "good knives", at least here in Germany....
The vast majority doesnt want knives that can rust or chip, simple as that. And for the rest there is Herder that makes harder and thinner knives, and other small makers like Schanz, Hennicke, Xerxes, etc  ....


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## alterwisser (Jan 23, 2017)

Nothing to add to what Mert said.

Saying the Japanese do it better when it comes to knives is like saying the French do it better when it comes to wine, the Germans when it comes to cars and the Italians when it comes to ... hmmm... hitting on your wife maybe? (JUST KIDDING!!)

I somewhat agree with it when it comes to mass produces knives, but when it comes down to small makers ... I would argue that some Western makers might even be better. Why? Because a lot of times Japanese makers are not that scientific in their approach. Do it like it's always been done, a lot of eyeballing and experience. That is all great, and I love the story and history behind it as much as anyone. But some of the Western makers really get behind the scientific aspect of metallurgy and master heat treatment and other elements. 

For example: I agree that mass produced German knives are crap (mostly - although they used to be great), but I encourage you to try a Xerxes knife (which is as German as it gets, made in Germany by a German using mostly German materials) and I promise you that it will perform as well as or better than most if not all of your Japanese knives. And there are great makers from other countries, like Bryan from France, Mert from Australia/Turkey, Butch and a lot of others here in the US and so on ...


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## Chef_ (Jan 23, 2017)

If a custom western knife maker uses Japanese profiles and grinds, then I would lump that into the "japanese Knife" category. I dont think that any of us are saying that western bladesmiths have less skill than Japanese blade smiths. Its that innovation in the mainstream market has been lost altogether in western manufacturers compared to Japanese manufactures. They also have a demand there for high quality, handmade tools that value performance over all. Whereas in the west, theyre still pumping out the same old wusthof, sabatier, victorinox they have been forever, and everyone is fine with it.


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## Chef_ (Jan 23, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> Nothing to add to what Mert said.
> 
> Saying the Japanese do it better when it comes to knives is like saying the French do it better when it comes to wine, the Germans when it comes to cars and the Italians when it comes to ... hmmm... hitting on your wife maybe? (JUST KIDDING!!)
> 
> ...



True but from the looks of his website, he is influenced by japanese gyutos, and i dont want to pay 1500 for a knife, thats the kind of price point that outweighs the quality.( for me personally)


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## alterwisser (Jan 23, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> If a custom western knife maker uses Japanese profiles and grinds, then I would lump that into the "japanese Knife" category. I dont think that any of us are saying that western bladesmiths have less skill than Japanese blade smiths. Its that innovation in the mainstream market has been lost altogether in western manufacturers compared to Japanese manufactures. They also have a demand there for high quality, handmade tools that value performance over all. Whereas in the west, theyre still pumping out the same old wusthof, sabatier, victorinox they have been forever, and everyone is fine with it.



I don't think there has been much innovation in the Japanese market either, it feels more like .. a lot of tradition being continued. I don't really see a lot of innovation with Japanese makers. Yes, some play around with newer steels like ZDP189 and stuff, but handles are the same, profiles seem to be the same. Yu Kurosaki comes to mind doing different stuff, but it's mostly cosmetic (blade finishes and stuff).

IMHO there hasn't been true innovation in the knife market in general, no matter where. Unfortunately Innovation has been a buzz word in a lot of industries. A true innovation would be something like the steam engine back when it got introduced, or the electric car (no Tesla, it wasn't you ...) ... I don't see any of those in knifemaking ...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

@alterwisser no one doubts Xerxes, Schanz or even Herder ... but even Herder would not be a typical German knife by today's definitions...


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## Eloh (Jan 23, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> If a custom western knife maker uses Japanese profiles and grinds, then I would lump that into the "japanese Knife" category. I dont think that any of us are saying that western bladesmiths have less skill than Japanese blade smiths. Its that innovation in the mainstream market has been lost altogether in western manufacturers compared to Japanese manufactures. They also have a demand there for high quality, handmade tools that value performance over all. Whereas in the west, theyre still pumping out the same old wusthof, sabatier, victorinox they have been forever, and everyone is fine with it.



How is a Gyuto a japanese knife though. One could as well argue that only single bevel knives fall into the so called "japanese Knife" category.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-Vintag...RAZOR-SHARP-/361875380903?hash=item5441741aa7
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Hen...A-Condition-/361453226017?hash=item54284a8821
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-Vintag...ARP-8-Blade-/291920837833?hash=item43f7d67cc9

put a wa handle on those and you'd call them a gyuto


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## bkultra (Jan 23, 2017)

The Japanese gyuto is modeled after the french sabatier


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## Eloh (Jan 23, 2017)

:doublethumbsup:


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## Ruso (Jan 23, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> I don't think there has been much innovation in the Japanese market either, it feels more like .. a lot of tradition being continued. I don't really see a lot of innovation with Japanese makers. Yes, some play around with newer steels like ZDP189 and stuff, but handles are the same, profiles seem to be the same. Yu Kurosaki comes to mind doing different stuff, but it's mostly cosmetic (blade finishes and stuff).
> 
> IMHO there hasn't been true innovation in the knife market in general, no matter where. Unfortunately Innovation has been a buzz word in a lot of industries. A true innovation would be something like the steam engine back when it got introduced, or the electric car (no Tesla, it wasn't you ...) ... I don't see any of those in knifemaking ...



It's hard to impossible to innovate in something that was around for so long and it's so simple in principle. 
You can make it better but true innovation in your sense will mean the disappearance of the knife as we know it. Perhaps a light sabre style knife??


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## alterwisser (Jan 23, 2017)

Ruso said:


> It's hard to impossible to innovate in something that was around for so long and it's so simple in principle.
> You can make it better but true innovation in your sense will mean the disappearance of the knife as we know it. Perhaps a light sabre style knife??



I agree, but I wasn't the one starting to talk about innovation in the knife industry


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## rami_m (Jan 23, 2017)

I think I need to clarify, I do not mean Japanese made knives vs western made knives. I am more speaking of Japanese specs vs western spec and when each are appropriate. 

For example you had that Turkish butchering knife which I suspect would would be better at its job than a Japanese knife.


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## rami_m (Jan 23, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> I agree, but I wasn't the one starting to talk about innovation in the knife industry



I dunno dude, I think some of the custom makers here are always experimenting with things. So you never know. 

I think the block is material science, the general public wants easier to maintain knives. If someone can deliver that and thin behind the edge knives, then the sky is the limit.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 23, 2017)

merlijny2k said:


> I think it is the 'losing advantage' principle. In the west we figured out something that works quite well (softer steel and honing rod) and so stopped looking for something even better, got stuck in a localized maximum to put it mathematically. Also the Japanese have been more open to adopting Western idea's (french chef knife profile, yo handles) than vice versa. And i think Japan has the advantage of having a large domestic market of 150 dollar plus knives, perhaps rivalled by the US, i wouldn't know but not anywhere else.


I think you are wrong about the domestic market. Japan is a tiny market period. What's more I would be shocked, shocked, if even 10 percent of the population had a 150 dollar knife in their kitchen. Nobody says this about Germans.


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## rami_m (Jan 23, 2017)

spoiledbroth said:


> I think you are wrong about the domestic market. Japan is a tiny market period. What's more I would be shocked, shocked, if even 10 percent of the population had a 150 dollar knife in their kitchen. Nobody says this about Germans.



True. 

But

The Japanese professional market is much larger than western markets. When I went there I was never far from a restaurant. Even predominantly residential areas and mountain villages. And most of the kitchen I have seen have used carbon. They take their eating v seriously over there.


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## malexthekid (Jan 23, 2017)

rami_m said:


> I dunno dude, I think some of the custom makers here are always experimenting with things. So you never know.
> 
> I think the block is material science, the general public wants easier to maintain knives. If someone can deliver that and thin behind the edge knives, then the sky is the limit.



Gonna be pedantic here but that is tinkering not innovation.

Even japanese blades are not really inmovative. Just an adaptation of a french (western style) blade with traditional Japanese sword and single-bevel knife knife construction.

As for which does it better, isn't that a futile discussion, afterall what is better? Many chefs prep amazing food with "western" style knives quite happily.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

"Nobody says this about Germans."

I think while some german households will have expensive knives, they have often not been bought on grounds of performance, but aesthetic style and/or reputation... Zwilling, Wüsthof and Chroma (I know Chroma ain't german, but it seems the Porsche name makes it german enough for the Germans that they're quite popular) blocks on wedding registries...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

"Just an adaptation of a french (western style) blade"

There is the real forum bias - Pettys and Gyutos  OK, the santoku and usuba are probably old innovations upon the nakiri which is probably an adaptation of a chinese cleaver - but no french involved here I guess... If deba shapes had any influence from western knives, no idea... and neither if yanagiba and the odd shapes (unagisaki) are deba-derivatives in the end...


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## bkultra (Jan 23, 2017)

Slightly off topic but the santoku is kind of an interesting story. As western food was becoming more popular in Japan it was marketed to Japanese house wives as the must have western knife. At the same there was a growing interest in japanses knives in America and guess what?... This was the must have japanses knife to own.


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## swarth (Jan 23, 2017)

Can you repeat the question?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

Often marketed as a vegetable knife in the west  And actually, I consider it more a versatilized nakiri than an alternative chef knife - the reason I tend to recommend considering santokus is that I think nakiri make perfectly viable main board knives for many dishes


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## rami_m (Jan 23, 2017)

bkultra said:


> Slightly off topic but the santoku is kind of an interesting story. As western food was becoming more popular in Japan it was marketed to Japanese house wives as the must have western knife. At the same there was a growing interest in japanses knives in America and guess what?... This was the must have japanses knife to own.



Which is funny cause it's less useful than what came before. So why so successful?


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## bkultra (Jan 23, 2017)

rami_m said:


> Which is funny cause it's less useful than what came before. So why so successful?



Like most things, marketing


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

A japanese household probably had no knife suitable for land animal meat. A santoku, compared to a 7" chef, has more flat spot - but did anyone push cut in the west back then? And yes, the 7" size is convenient for limited space and/or people that are not super-trained in board management


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## malexthekid (Jan 23, 2017)

bkultra said:


> Like most things, marketing



This!!!! As much as people lament the size of marketing for Shun etc. The reality is 95% of people purchase on look. So it is the best investment for them


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 23, 2017)

The stranger thing is how popular kullen santokus are... I consider them a specialty variant that also looks utterly un-asian, but some makers don't even have any other...


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## OliverNuther (Jan 24, 2017)

As a recent convert to J-knives I think the answer to OP's question as to when Japanese specs are better than Western specs is that it depends on the user's skill level. In my (limited) experience J-knives reward good technique while Western knives are more forgiving of abuse. I used to rock and walk my duller Western knife all over the board and basically bludgeon the food into submission. I now find prep is taking me longer but my knife skills are improving and I am more conscious of caring for my knife and enjoying cutting more. 

I'm speaking as a home cook, I accept the contention that a skilled chef will turn out quality no matter what piece of metal he is handed.

Short answer, Japanese specs are best if you can appreciate the differences, Western if you don't know, need or care about them.


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## merlijny2k (Jan 24, 2017)

Thinking about it some more: there are two foods that show little respect to my shaving sharp gyuto: hard dutch cheese and dried french sausage. Or more general, food with the following characteristics: Very high stiction to knife compared to cutting resistance, little sticktion to board. In those situation a rocking motion seems to work better for me than trying to push or slice, and ergo a german knife better than a J knife. Hard squash also tempts me to a western knife but there i feel it is more my lack of skill than a fundamental unsuitability of a delicate J-edge, but I have little hope of teaching my gyuto to deal with old Gouda cheese effectively.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 24, 2017)

Dense baked seitan -- stuff's like hard salami ... squashes ... frozen stuff ... but these are all more in "beater" than "good western knife" territory....


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## merlijny2k (Jan 24, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Dense baked seitan -- stuff's like hard salami ... squashes ... frozen stuff ... but these are all more in "beater" than "good western knife" territory....



Frozen stuff, yes, squash, not so much. I dice about 15-20 squashes per year because my inlaws are of Indian origin and it features prominently in the cuisine. I can tell you dicing a squash with a typical 5$ knife is no fun. (no, i have not tried a Kiwi, never had the pleasure of meeting one in person). Anything $50 and up I don't necessarily consider a beater. I can get a Henckels four star on sale for $45. You can spend more on a western factory knife, but how much better than a four star does it really get? So where does beater end and good knife begin?

If you mean by beater a knife that is not kept super sharp and used for the tasks that are really hard on the edge, then yes, but that doesn't make it a bad knife.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 24, 2017)

For the semi-hard squashes (hokkaido etc.) I think a gyuto is great, I was really thinking of these that package themselves in plywood.

Real beater for me: Kiwi meat cleaver, half-beaters: IKEA 365+, Samura AUS-8, drugstore-sale VG10 odds and ends (all of that is well sharpenable, but you're less concerned about possible damage).

My point was that a top-of-the-line german-german knife - like the most expensive Wüsthof oder Zwilling - would probably not be the first choice for such stuff even if the edge fits the task


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## merlijny2k (Jan 25, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> My point was that a top-of-the-line german-german knife - like the most expensive Wüsthof oder Zwilling - would probably not be the first choice for such stuff even if the edge fits the task



The strange thing is that with Wusthofs there seems to be not much difference in grind and profile, and no difference in steel between a $60 chef's knife or a $160 knife. Sure the X-line is a bit heavier set but does that make things better?. IKON line gets rid of the bolsters on the classic and is much more expensive, but the improvement in shape is not the reason for the price hike. To me that makes it really difficult to differentiate between reasonably priced and expensive knives. Basically you pay extra for hipness, design, novelty ...? Only Solingen made knives i know that doesn't fit above description is the Zwilling1731 and Gude damascus which both use a really different steel, but those seem more like collectors items. So once again you can't really relate price and performance there. Beyond a Wustie classic or Zwilling Pro S which are both about $70-$100 for a chef's knife depending on when and where you buy I wouldn't know where to go for a bang for the buck knife where price and performance clearly go hand in hand. I for one would happily use a Wustie classic on a hard squash if I owned one. I do my Sabatier.


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## merlijny2k (Jan 25, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Real beater for me: Kiwi meat cleaver, half-beaters: IKEA 365+, Samura AUS-8, drugstore-sale VG10 odds and ends (all of that is well sharpenable, but you're less concerned about possible damage).



I had never heard of the Samura brand before. The bamboo shaped metal handle is a nice idea. Much more attractive than a Kanetsugu pro S or a Tojiro. Funny they have the asian handle styles with a big belly profile and the western handle style with a gyuto profile.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 25, 2017)

@merliny2k eastern-european brand, that accidentally makes some cheap ones that I think don't *totally* suck - talking of the western handled ones here.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 25, 2017)

Oh, and Zwilling has another line that stands out (Cermax) - but this is in the end Myabi blades in German format , my theory still is that they want some Myabi in those stores that only want to stock one brand.


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## Benuser (Jan 25, 2017)

merlijny2k said:


> Thinking about it some more: there are two foods that show little respect to my shaving sharp gyuto: hard dutch cheese and dried french sausage. Or more general, food with the following characteristics: Very high stiction to knife compared to cutting resistance, little sticktion to board. In those situation a rocking motion seems to work better for me than trying to push or slice, and ergo a german knife better than a J knife. Hard squash also tempts me to a western knife but there i feel it is more my lack of skill than a fundamental unsuitability of a delicate J-edge, but I have little hope of teaching my gyuto to deal with old Gouda cheese effectively.



For your old cheese, have a unexpensive carbon sujihiki -- narrow, so little dragging. A Fujiwara Kanefusa with JCK. Or the 1922 Tranchelard by Herder. And fine-tune them for straight cutting. Both are quite stiff but thin behind the edge.


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## merlijny2k (Jan 25, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Oh, and Zwilling has another line that stands out (Cermax) - but this is in the end Myabi blades in German format , my theory still is that they want some Myabi in those stores that only want to stock one brand.



I know the Cermax line but those are made in Japan and that's cheating so for me they don't count.


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## merlijny2k (Jan 25, 2017)

Benuser said:


> For your old cheese, have a unexpensive carbon sujihiki -- narrow, so little dragging. A Fujiwara Kanefusa with JCK. Or the 1922 Tranchelard by Herder. And fine-tune them for straight cutting. Both are quite stiff but thin behind the edge.



I haven't tried a long slicer on my cheese now that you mention it. Not sure my wife would agree the amount of cheese we cut here would justify another knife though


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## Benuser (Jan 25, 2017)

No long one. 240 or so. And the Fujiwara won't cost that much. A bit more expensive 
https://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-robert-herder-trancheermes-hrc-60.htm


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## miggus (Jan 26, 2017)

chefcomesback said:


> For anyone who is not going to take care of their knives as well as we do mass produced knives are way to go
> Most of the problems and reputation shun is getting is due to the problem people treat them like they would their henckels , wusthofs . Wiping blades is still chore to some . I recommend them western blades in these cases



That is so true. I had quite a few people who got curious about my knives when testing them, told me me which one they should buy. And while they won't put the knives in the dishwasher, they look at me perplexed when I tell them my knives will RUST if left unattended. OK, there is good stainless. But then, they don't want to put attention to learning cutting technique, don't even begin to talk about sharpening on stones. So a halfway decent, not too thin VG-10 knife is the best I can come up with, because for everything really powerful (="Japanese"), care is need. its a neverending dilemma


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## Benuser (Jan 26, 2017)

Stainless will need basic care as well. Believe it or not, even a Wüsthof will dull with a pizza sauce on its edge overnight. Or a Global with 18% chromium. Or VG-10.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 27, 2017)

Bottom fishing Japan blades decent quality

Tojiro DP 240mm 64.50 Amazon

Fujiwara FKM 240mm 83.00

If splurging up to 150.00 you can get some serious cutters. Even hand forged from small Japanese operations. Not mainstream mass market.

Many Western knives mass market with full heel bolsters, handles & finger guards that extend out over the spine make sharpening a pain in the [email protected]#. Poor design. There is a lot of hype eg. Ken Onion chef knives with crap handles & wacky profiles. 

Japan knives may not seem innovative. Those suckers have single bevel on the brain, can't even make a 50/50 grind on a chef knife. They cut well & are easy to sharpen go figure:scratchhead:


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## merlijny2k (Jan 27, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Stainless will need basic care as well. Believe it or not, even a Wüsthof will dull with a pizza sauce on its edge overnight. Or a Global with 18% chromium. Or VG-10.



My 250 Sabatier knife (diamant) is a stainless knife i got in ready for garbage can condition and refinished and rehandled. I haven't been able to get the pitting out, even after significant effort on a course stone. Don't know how it got there in the first place but it can definitely be done. On the other hand: back in humid and warm Suriname we lost a carbon steel sheffield 'crocodile' machete once. Found it about 4 years later while clearing a patch of grass to plant vegetables. It was rusty and it has a couple of pits, but a bit of sand paper and bench grinder effort later it was serviceable again. AFAIK my mom still has it in use.


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## Dan P. (Jan 27, 2017)

merlijny2k said:


> Also the Japanese have been more open to adopting Western idea's (french chef knife profile, yo handles) than vice versa.



Heh! And mechanical hammers, punch presses, oil/gas forges, water-cooled rotating grinding wheels, stainless steel, crucible steel, damascus, etc. etc.

Just sayin'!


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## Dan P. (Jan 27, 2017)

rami_m said:


> In what circumstances would Japanese STYLE knives not excel and other knife types come to their own.



There is a particular kind of knife consisting of broad blade, with lots of sort of little circular blades or teeth coming out of it.
We use it for grating cheese.
Not sure what it's called...


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## rami_m (Jan 27, 2017)

Dan P. said:


> There is a particular kind of knife consisting of broad blade, with lots of sort of little circular blades or teeth coming out of it.
> We use it for grating cheese.
> Not sure what it's called...



A grater? [emoji23]


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