# question about a sharp knife that cant cut tomatoes well



## r0bz

I sharpened the knife on an 800 gritstone made burr then deburred on it and then moved to 8000 gritstone and deburred on that stone sharpening angle approx 17degrees, the knife is very sharp it cuts through paper with ease but through tomatoes it doesn't work pretty well 

what might be the problem?
thank you for all the help


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## lemeneid

Not enough teeth. You need a little teeth to cut tomato skins so even a sharp knife might not cut well.

Bring it down to about 3k and you’ll see a difference.


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## Garm

What steel is the knife made from? How much time did you spend on the last stone? Do you have problems cutting tomatoes, straight off the 8k stone, even for a short while?
If this is the case I would guess it's a question about either pressure or angle consistency, creating something akin to a ball point pen edge which can still pop hairs and push cut paper, but would struggle with tomato skin, or a lingering small burr/wire edge. I have been very skilled at achieving both these types of edges ..
I agree that for longevity it's much better to finish a knife meant for tomatoes on lower grits than 8k, but with good steel it should still do fine for a while.


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## big_adventure

As stated, to really cut tomatoes well, you need a toothier edge than an 8K stone is likely to leave. I don't sharpen anything over 6K anymore, and I only use that for single bevel knives. Chosera 3K + slight stropping is my finisher for every other good steel and they all go through tomatoes on the weight of the blade alone. The only things I really trust for ensuring usable sharpness are tomatoes, peppers and onion skins.


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## Wagnum

Like others have said you need some teeth on your edge. I don't go past 2k on most of my work knives for this reason


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## r0bz

Garm said:


> What steel is the knife made from? How much time did you spend on the last stone? Do you have problems cutting tomatoes, straight off the 8k stone, even for a short while?
> If this is the case I would guess it's a question about either pressure or angle consistency, creating something akin to a ball point pen edge which can still pop hairs and push cut paper, but would struggle with tomato skin, or a lingering small burr/wire edge. I have been very skilled at achieving both these types of edges ..
> I agree that for longevity it's much better to finish a knife meant for tomatoes on lower grits than 8k, but with good steel it should still do fine for a while.



i spent quite some time at the higher grit stone


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## r0bz

Garm said:


> What steel is the knife made from? How much time did you spend on the last stone? Do you have problems cutting tomatoes, straight off the 8k stone, even for a short while?
> If this is the case I would guess it's a question about either pressure or angle consistency, creating something akin to a ball point pen edge which can still pop hairs and push cut paper, but would struggle with tomato skin, or a lingering small burr/wire edge. I have been very skilled at achieving both these types of edges ..
> I agree that for longevity it's much better to finish a knife meant for tomatoes on lower grits than 8k, but with good steel it should still do fine for a while.


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## r0bz

Garm said:


> What steel is the knife made from? How much time did you spend on the last stone? Do you have problems cutting tomatoes, straight off the 8k stone, even for a short while?
> If this is the case I would guess it's a question about either pressure or angle consistency, creating something akin to a ball point pen edge which can still pop hairs and push cut paper, but would struggle with tomato skin, or a lingering small burr/wire edge. I have been very skilled at achieving both these types of edges ..
> I agree that for longevity it's much better to finish a knife meant for tomatoes on lower grits than 8k, but with good steel it should still do fine for a while.


its 58 Rockwell the hardness


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## IsoJ

58rockwell I would say around 1k grit and stropping should give a good bite. Going much further will only loose the bite and beeing softer steel, it won't hold the edge very long so I wouldn't personally go much higher than 1k


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## Alder26

r0bz said:


> its 58 Rockwell the hardness
> i spent quite some time at the higher grit stone


Particularly when you sharpen softer steels higher grit polishes will wash out the teeth on your edge. Try finishing the knife on the king 800>deburring>stropping on the 8k stone. This should clean up your 800grit edge so it doesn't feel terribly coarse, but leave you with tons of bite for veggie prep.


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## r0bz

by the way, I use this honing rod with that knife, would you say its suitable ?








Wusthof Honing steel 9"


Honing steel 9"




www.knivesandtools.com


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## Alder26

for a knife that is around 58HRC a wusthof steel is probably effective but I would not use that steel to hone knives that are much harder than that


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## r0bz

Alder26 said:


> for a knife that is around 58HRC a wusthof steel is probably effective but I would not use that steel to hone knives that are much harder than that


at what Rockwell level would you say a knife will be harmed from honing it with this honing rod ?


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## Garm

With a knife like the one you're describing, I agree with what others have said above.
If 800 and 8k are your only stones I would focus on getting a clean, toothy edge on the 800 and at most use the 8k for a just few very light refining and deburring strokes. Do some test cuts in tomatoes as you progress, and you'll soon dial in on what you prefer, and what the knife can take when it comes to refinement.
For reference, I rarely use an 8k stone, and only with very hard, fine-grained carbon steel.


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## Nemo

r0bz said:


> its 58 Rockwell the hardness


Which steel? Which knife?

Just Giving us the hardness gives us no information about grain structure or how competent the heat treatment is likely to be.


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## Nemo

r0bz said:


> by the way, I use this honing rod with that knife, would you say its suitable ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wusthof Honing steel 9"
> 
> 
> Honing steel 9"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.knivesandtools.com


Which knife is it? Sorry to repeat the question, but it is important.


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## Nemo

r0bz said:


> i spent quite some time at the higher grit stone


You should have made your knife sharp on your medium (circa 1k) stone. Higher grits are simply to polish the edge, which is done with light pressure and should not take a long time if you have already made a good apex with a coarser stone.

Another way of saying this is that by far most of the work of sharpening is done on the lowest grit stone that you will use.

It's possible that too much work on a fine stone will remove the micro-serrations left by your medium stone. This could account for your tomato problem.


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## Bobby2shots

r0bz said:


> I sharpened the knife on an 800 gritstone made burr then deburred on it and then moved to 8000 gritstone and deburred on that stone sharpening angle approx 17degrees, the knife is very sharp it cuts through paper with ease but through tomatoes it doesn't work pretty well
> 
> what might be the problem?
> thank you for all the help



Aside from all the good responses so far,,,, I'd be willing to bet that your main issue has to do with using too much pressure on your finish strokes, effectively causing the blade's apex to tilt more to one side than the other. You can quickly check if that's the case by verrrrryyyy lightly dragging the pad of your thumb *across* the blade edge,,,, left to right,,,, then, right to left. If the blade seems to bite a bit more in one direction compared to the other, then that's a sure sign. If that's the case, try stropping the blade VERY LIGHTLY on your finish stone, no more than 1 pull per side at a time. A few strokes should fix the issue, or at the very least, provide an improvement.

Also, check the entire blade length for tilt,,, because.... depending how you stroked the stone, you may find that one* portion* of the blade tilts to one side for half the length of the blade, and tilts opposite along the remainder of the blade's length.

And,,,,,,,, get yourself a 2k, or 3k or 4k stone. 800 to 8k is too big a jump.


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## r0bz

Bobby2shots said:


> Aside from all the good responses so far,,,, I'd be willing to bet that your main issue has to do with using too much pressure on your finish strokes, effectively causing the blade's apex to tilt more to one side than the other. You can quickly check if that's the case by verrrrryyyy lightly dragging the pad of your thumb *across* the blade edge,,,, left to right,,,, then, right to left. If the blade seems to bite a bit more in one direction compared to the other, then that's a sure sign. If that's the case, try stropping the blade VERY LIGHTLY on your finish stone, no more than 1 pull per side at a time. A few strokes should fix the issue, or at the very least, provide an improvement.
> 
> Also, check the entire blade length for tilt,,, because.... depending how you stroked the stone, you may find that one* portion* of the blade tilts to one side for half the length of the blade, and tilts opposite along the remainder of the blade's length.
> 
> And,,,,,,,, get yourself a 2k, or 3k or 4k stone. 800 to 8k is too big a jump.


on the high gritstone i don't apply any pressure other than the weight of the knife only strop like he is doing in this video


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## Bobby2shots

r0bz said:


> on the high gritstone i don't apply any pressure other than the weight of the knife only strop like he is doing in this video




and,,,,,, what does your thumb test tell you? Same bite in both directions across the entire length of the blade?


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## r0bz

Bobby2shots said:


> and,,,,,, what does your thumb test tell you? Same bite in both directions across the entire length of the blade?


it feels the same


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## TB_London

Simple answer is that it isn’t as sharp as you think it is.
Super polish done well will fall through tomato skins. Look at a couple of Salty’s videos (the OG of the tomato slice vid)





Just leave it at 800grit if it’s working well off that stone.


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## MarcelNL

that slicer can be used to create coupes for the pathology lab


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## r0bz

TB_London said:


> Simple answer is that it isn’t as sharp as you think it is.
> Super polish done well will fall through tomato skins. Look at a couple of Salty’s videos (the OG of the tomato slice vid)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just leave it at 800grit if it’s working well off that stone.



it cuts through printer paper like butter and through magazine paper and newspaper like butter ...
i don't know what other tests should be performed


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## MarcelNL

r0bz said:


> it cuts through printer paper like butter and through magazine paper and newspaper like butter ...
> i don't know what other tests should be performed


You do not need more testing, but what @lemeneid already wrote... tomato skin is a whole different cookie to cut


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## Jovidah

I think it's just god's punishment for using Burrfection video's as a guide... 

I do second the question 'what exactly are you sharpening'. If it's German stainless then you're mostly wasting your time. Even if you can create a perfectly polished super fine edge 8000 grit edge it just won't hold it.


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## r0bz

Jovidah said:


> I think it's just god's punishment for using Burrfection video's as a guide...
> 
> I do second the question 'what exactly are you sharpening'. If it's German stainless then you're mostly wasting your time. Even if you can create a perfectly polished super fine edge 8000 grit edge it just won't hold it.


it's German stainless

and also what's wrong with Ricky's video?
i also watched korin knives a long time ago ...


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## Jovidah

The guy is a confusing mix of good advice, bad advice, and just outright incompetent bumbling. He's basically some guy with no prior experiences who watched a bunch of YT channels (the way most of us started), but then decided to immediately launch his own channel and call himself an expert. Most of all he continuously gives me this feeling that he doesn't actually have a clue what he's talking about.
It's hard to take a guy serious who will release a video titled "Blade Thinning - Why You (probably) NEVER need to".... 

For German stainless I'd just end on the 800 grit stone... taking that to the 8000 is IMO just a waste of time. Most people around here tend to finish that on 1000-2000 grit at the most.


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## r0bz

Jovidah said:


> The guy is a confusing mix of good advice, bad advice, and just outright incompetent bumbling. He's basically some guy with no prior experiences who watched a bunch of YT channels (the way most of us started), but then decided to immediately launch his own channel and call himself an expert. Most of all he continuously gives me this feeling that he doesn't actually have a clue what he's talking about.
> It's hard to take a guy serious who will release a video titled "Blade Thinning - Why You (probably) NEVER need to"....


who would you suggest to watch as a competent example?


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## Jovidah

There's a bunch of sources that are IMO more to the point, and most importantly, not filled with misinformation.

I learned most from these (in no particular order):
Japanese Knife Imports
https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports
You'll have to skim through the catalog because not everything is sharpening related. 
There's also a wealth of knowledge posted by him throughout these forums over the years, but it might be hard to access that in an efficient manner since it's like little nuggets everywhere.

Korin

You already mentioned you watched this but I figured I'd list this in case anyone else stumbled upon this because it is a good series.

Murray Carter
https://www.youtube.com/c/CarterCutlery/videos
A bit more problematic because from what I can see there's only small tidbits on his YT channel and it's a mess to find what you actually need.

That's probably the most comprehensive. He had an older series that was originally a paid video series. Those were actually really nice but can be a bit hard to find (I have them floating around somewhere). What's interesting is that he does a lot of slightly different thigns, sometimes has some different techniques, and he focuses a lot on fundamental stuff.
I could only track down one of htem on YT (Advanced Blade Sharpening Fundamentals), but there's also one called "Introduction to Knife Sharpening".


These are the 3 that helped me the most starting out. All 3 of these have had professional training and do this essentially for a living (okay Murray is technically a knifemaker, but close enough). This is by no means a final and exclusive list; I'm sure there's other great sources out there.
The biggest problem with Burrfection is that due to him sort of.. figuring out this whole sharpening thing as he went along, and obviously watching some of these videos to teach himself, his videos are a bit of a confusing mess of truths, half-truths and bad advice. Some of it is good, some of it is bad, but for a novice it's very hard to figure out which is which. On top of that he seems to have no knife skills to speak of and all his 'testing' is based on non-valid materials (paper, rope, etc), so he's someone who's only focused on the edge and not on practical cutting performance as a more holistic concept.


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## Nemo

As Jovidah said, Western Stainless is generally much coarser-grained than decent Japanese stainless, even the cheap stuff like AUS8.

No point going beyond 1k with Western Stainless in most cases.

AUS8 will usually take a 3-4k edge nicely.

In addition to the sharpening resources mentioned above, its worth checking out the knifeplanet sharpening school videos.


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## r0bz

Nemo said:


> knifeplanet sharpening school


I already watched peter


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## ian

TB_London said:


> Simple answer is that it isn’t as sharp as you think it is.
> Super polish done well will fall through tomato skins. Look at a couple of Salty’s videos (the OG of the tomato slice vid)
> 
> 
> 
> Just leave it at 800grit if it’s working well off that stone.




Does it say that's a high grit edge somewhere? 

This is a bit unrelated, and idk if I'm just not good enough, but my high grit edges have worse tomato-skin-tested-edge-retention than my low grit edges. (They both cut them ok right off the stones, but the low grit ones stay capable much longer.)



Jovidah said:


> I do second the question 'what exactly are you sharpening'. If it's German stainless then you're mostly wasting your time. Even if you can create a perfectly polished super fine edge 8000 grit edge it just won't hold it.



 (and  to @Nemo's posts)



Bobby2shots said:


> And,,,,,,,, get yourself a 2k, or 3k or 4k stone. 800 to 8k is too big a jump.



@M1k3, great god of SG 500 -> 10k progressions, I summon you!


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## M1k3

ian said:


> Does it say that's a high grit edge somewhere?
> 
> This is a bit unrelated, and idk if I'm just not good enough, but my high grit edges have worse tomato-skin-tested-edge-retention than my low grit edges. (They both cut them ok right off the stones, but the low grit ones stay capable much longer.)
> 
> 
> 
> (and  to @Nemo's posts)
> 
> 
> 
> @M1k3, great god of SG 500 -> 10k progressions, I summon you!


No, no, no. SP 120 > 10k.

Honestly, I'd stop on the 800 stone. Not even touch the 8k for cutting tomatoes.


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## Kippington

Sharpening on coarse stones with light pressure, then stropped on a _waaaayyyy_ finer grit - that's a* tomato killing* edge.


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## dough

Just a thought but why test an edge on paper if plan to cut tomato. Just test your edge on tomato.


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## ian

dough said:


> Just a thought but why test an edge on paper if plan to cut tomato. Just test your edge on tomato.



Because it rules out a bunch of other reasons why it might not be cutting the tomato?


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## ModRQC

Because you'd have to clean the whole blade carefully making sure not to contaminate and have something to do with those tomatoes in the next 30 minutes or so? Or garbage it for no good reason...

There's a difference between testing an edge and testing an edge. Cutting three different kind of papers for 30 minutes is obviously a waste of time and not understanding the paper test right. But when you use thin paper from a consistent provenance, you just wipe and dry the blade and get to know within 10 seconds if there's burr remnant, if the edge is true on the full length, and from the sound how well it will cut what kind of stuff exactly.


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## branwell

dough said:


> Just a thought but why test an edge on paper if plan to cut tomato. Just test your edge on tomato.


Testing on what you want to cut is a great way of seeing if you've optimized the edge for that task, but the old paper cut test has its place too I think. Its a very simple test requiring virtually no skill to see if you have a clean consistent edge from heal to tip.


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## Bobby2shots

r0bz said:


> it feels the same



And what do you mean by "same"??? Same as in "no bite" in both directions? Plenty of bite in both directions?

Paper cutting tests are often useless unless you know specifically how to interpret what's happening. Any reasonably sharp blade can cut paper,,,, it's how smooooothly the cut feels and sounds as you draw the entire edge of the blade through the cut that tells you precisely where along the blade edge you might need more work.

When you worked on your 800 grit stone, did you try marking the edge (apex) with a sharpie to see if you were using the correct angle and actually hitting the apex?


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## r0bz

Bobby2shots said:


> And what do you mean by "same"??? Same as in "no bite" in both directions? Plenty of bite in both directions?
> 
> Paper cutting tests are often useless unless you know specifically how to interpret what's happening. Any reasonably sharp blade can cut paper,,,, it's how smooooothly the cut feels and sounds as you draw the entire edge of the blade through the cut that tells you precisely where along the blade edge you might need more work.
> 
> When you worked on your 800 grit stone, did you try marking the edge (apex) with a sharpie to see if you were using the correct angle?


plenty of bite in both directions, I did not do the sharpie method, the cut of paper feels smooth about the sound i don't know how to describe it.

I raised a burr on one side of the knife then raised it on the other side (did the same strokes on each side) then I deburred by stropping on the low grit stone and then went to stop on the high gritstone.


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## r0bz

r0bz said:


> plenty of bite both sides





Kippington said:


> Sharpening on coarse stones with light pressure, then stropped on a _waaaayyyy_ finer grit - that's a* tomato killing* edge.


 what grit do you consider coarse?


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## Bobby2shots

r0bz said:


> plenty of bite in both directions, I did not do the sharpie method, the cut of paper feels smooth about the sound i don't know how to describe it.
> 
> I raised a burr on one side of the knife then raised it on the other side (did the same strokes on each side) then I deburred by stropping on the low grit stone and then went to stop on the high gritstone.



and,,,What about Nemo's question which you haven't answered yet,,,,,, what knife is it?


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## r0bz

Bobby2shots said:


> and,,,What about Nemo's question which you haven't answered yet,,,,,, what knife is it?


I'm not sure of the brand
i know it's not an expensive knife
* it is written on it: MOLYBDENUM VANADIUM STAINLESS STEEL
I thought its german steel earlier... sorry for my confusion*


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## ModRQC

Lol the question of what steel/make was answered like three times. 

These kind of thread are so funny. No one reads, everybody answers.


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## ModRQC

OP: there's a difference between stropping on your 8K as you said at some point, and "spending a lot of time" like you mentioned earlier on.

800: deburr until you get the killer edge. Wash and try your tomato.

8000: light stropping, few strokes per side, no weight. Will clean without removing the bite. Wash and try your tomato.

8000: full motion. You know you've really polished that edge when it starts to "grab" at the stone. Or burr feeling method. Wash and try your tomato.

That should give you plenty of thinking stuff to find your ways.

If you have a coarser stone, you can try it also. Full jump or stopping at your 800 first.

If you have a med stone, you should definitely try it for a good all-around edge that bites into tomato.


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## r0bz

ModRQC said:


> OP: there's a difference between stropping on your 8K as you said at some point, and "spending a lot of time" like you mentioned earlier on.
> 
> 800: deburr until you get the killer edge. Wash and try your tomato.
> 
> 8000: light stropping, few strokes per side, no weight. Will clean without removing the bite. Wash and try your tomato.
> 
> 8000: full motion. You know you've really polished that edge when it starts to "grab" at the stone. Or burr feeling method. Wash and try your tomato.
> 
> That should give you plenty of thinking stuff to find your ways.
> 
> If you have a coarser stone, you can try it also. Full jump or stopping at your 800 first.
> 
> If you have a med stone, you should definitely try it for a good all-around edge that bites into tomato.


what is a med stone ?, i have a 120 grit stone, and a double sided 800 and 8000 stone


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## ModRQC

Your 800 is about one but while it will provide plenty of bite you can work out a good edge out of a 2K stone for these kind of steels. Feeling will be quite finer, plenty of bite and aggressivity still.

Edit: @r0bz I'm not saying go buy one. Do my test first. Chances are you can work something out with 800 - light 8000 stropping that's about the same as 2K but possibly more durable.

Your 120 is ideal to give the primary edge when that kind of steel is very fatigued. Perhaps this is something you didn't think about neither. If the steel of your knife is very fatigued, you can sharpen it on 800, but you won't have removed the fatigued steel. All kinds of failure from cutting paper to cutting stuff could follow. Or not... So while you're at testing, you can always visit your 120 first.


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## r0bz

ModRQC said:


> Your 800 is about one but while it will provide plenty of bite you can work out a good edge out of a 2K stone for these kind of steels. Feeling will be quite finer, plenty of bite and aggressivity still.
> 
> Edit: @r0bz I'm not saying go buy one. Do my test first. Chances are you can work something out with 800 - light 8000 stropping that's about the same as 2K but possibly more durable.
> 
> Your 120 is ideal to give the primary edge when that kind of steel is very fatigued. Perhaps this is something you didn't think about neither. If the steel of your knife is very fatigued, you can sharpen it on 800, but you won't have removed the fatigued steel. All kinds of failure from cutting paper to cutting stuff could follow. Or not... So while you're at testing, you can always visit your 120 first.


would you suggest deburring by stropping on the 800 stone or doing the push and pull method with very light pressure?


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## Bobby2shots

ModRQC said:


> Lol the question of what steel/make was answered like three times.
> 
> These kind of thread are so funny. No one reads, everybody answers.



Obviously you haven't read it either.


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## tostadas

dough said:


> Just a thought but why test an edge on paper if plan to cut tomato. Just test your edge on tomato.


Paper is a quick way to check for missed spots. It can be obvious if theres one location that catches on the paper when testing.



r0bz said:


> would you suggest deburring by stropping on the 800 stone or doing the push and pull method with very light pressure?


I'd recommend checking out @Kippington method of deburring with a very high angle. I find this method very effective to ensure you remove the burr.


for reference;





Kippington Deburring Video


Good morning team! I am trying to find the thread where Kippington posted a video showing a quick way he deburs that is different than the regular ways people deburr. I found it in google once but I can't seem to find it again. Also, what do you guys think about the pros and cons of this...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## ModRQC

Bobby2shots said:


> Obviously you haven't read it either.





r0bz said:


> its 58 Rockwell the hardness





r0bz said:


> it's German stainless



And then he retracted the German aspect. Which leaves make to be determined indeed. But really 58HRC stainless is all we needed to know from the start.


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## ModRQC

r0bz said:


> would you suggest deburring by stropping on the 800 stone or doing the push and pull method with very light pressure?



You mean, if you start anew with the 120 first? Yes, I would just use the 120 for the primary edge, and since I am a conservative guy, I'd just do what you did so far with the 800 afterwards, although it won't need as much work with the primary already set. You can sure try jumping to 8000. Sky is the limit, trying the only way to explore.


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## r0bz

ModRQC said:


> And then he retracted the German aspect. Which leaves make to be determined indeed. But really 58HRC stainless is all we needed to know from the start.


well i was wrong i guess, we all make mistakes sometimes


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## Bobby2shots

ModRQC said:


> And then he retracted the German aspect. Which leaves make to be determined indeed. But really 58HRC stainless is all we needed to know from the start.


So where do you see 58 Rockwell being confirmed??? So far w'eve had "it's 58 Rockwell",,,, then "it's German steel",,,, now we have "It's not German", etc. What "kind" of knife??? a carver???? a bread knife???? A cleaver??? A paring knife???? Try reading before ridiculing others who are genuinely interested in helping this individual get the results he's looking for.


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## Jovidah

Technically speaking one doesn't rule out the other... molybdenum vanadium steel can be used for all sorts of things, both the German X50CrMov15 / 1.4116 or the Japanese AUS-8. It's a somewhat generic term, but sadly sometimes that's all you get from the manufacturer.
If it's a dodgy cheap knife there's also the risk of the heat treat being botched.


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## ModRQC

r0bz said:


> well i was wrong i guess, we all make mistakes sometimes



There's no problem with that.


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## ModRQC

Bobby2shots said:


> So where do you see 58 Rockwell being confirmed??? So far w'eve had "it's 58 Rockwell",,,, then "it's German steel",,,, now we have "It's not German", etc. What "kind" of knife??? a carver???? a bread knife???? A cleaver??? A paring knife???? Try reading before ridiculing others who are genuinely interested in helping this individual get the results he's looking for.



Oh I've read which you clearly didn't. Introducing a new layer of interrogations doesn't make me wrong. I think a serrated knife was out of the question when he mentioned the rod, if it was ever in it. From there, and taking into account the OP seemed reluctant or unable to provide precisions as required, I really don't care. If it's a petty or a slicer, if it's the worse heat treatment or the best, or even if it's 56HRC, or carbon steel for all that matters, the fact is a thrift store knife can be sharpened and should cut tomatoes out of it. 

From there, pressing the OP about info for about the sixth time... the answer is more simple than what knife it is or what steel it is. I think "spending a lot of time" on a 8K stone, and needing to ask questions here about results, means the edge doesn't bite the tomato, which is not entirely surprising. For an edge so fine to fall through, it would take skills... and even there. I was assuming those where in some proportion lacking - or he just wouldn't ask. 

I'm guilty of all charges about ridiculing you if it helps you sleep tonight. But I've read and saw through useless details before replying.


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## Bobby2shots

ModRQC said:


> I'm guilty of all charges
> 
> " I've read and saw through *useless details* before replying".



Yet you said "that's been answered three times" and "*others* don't read". 

It's those "useless detail" questions that have gotten us from "It's German steel",,,,, to now it's not. 

It's 58 HRC,,,,, to possibly "now it's not"????.


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## ian

Sigh….

In other news, did you try sharpening it again yet, @r0bz? I’d read through the thread, but it’s too much work to sift through the discussion about who has read the thread.


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## Cmfuen

These guys have been putting out good livestreams and sharpening videos. Worth a look: https://youtube.com/c/KnifewearTelevision


----------



## TB_London

How does knowing the exact knife or HRC or touching the edge change anything? The dude says he can’t slice tomato after the 8k- either get better at the 8k (takes time and effort- something to keep trying as you learn over a period of time) or for now just leave it at 800g which works fine.


Yeah we can all debate intricacies of steels and hardness and stone progressions- but that’s like trying to explain to someone how water expands when it freezes to someone that bursts their water bottle when they put it in the freezer, or asking them for the brand of bottle and type of water when the simple answer is to not fill it all the way up before putting the lid on. (Btw water expansion when moving from a liquid to solid phase is more complicated than it seems!)

OP- it’ll take practice to get a good edge on a high grit stone. Don’t worry about it, enjoy the sharp edge off the coarser stone and keep practicing. If it doesn’t cut a tomato off the high grit go back to the coarse grit until it does.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

TB_London said:


> How does knowing the exact knife or HRC or touching the edge change anything? The dude says he can’t slice tomato after the 8k- either get better at the 8k (takes time and effort- something to keep trying as you learn over a period of time) or for now just leave it at 800g which works fine.
> 
> 
> Yeah we can all debate intricacies of steels and hardness and stone progressions- but that’s like trying to explain to someone how water expands when it freezes to someone that bursts their water bottle when they put it in the freezer, or asking them for the brand of bottle and type of water when the simple answer is to not fill it all the way up before putting the lid on. (Btw water expansion when moving from a liquid to solid phase is more complicated than it seems!)
> 
> OP- it’ll take practice to get a good edge on a high grit stone. Don’t worry about it, enjoy the sharp edge off the coarser stone and keep practicing. If it doesn’t cut a tomato off the high grit go back to the coarse grit until it does.



Nah man. Yes, to enjoy the edge of the course stone and specialize there. But the steel does matter. It's a waste of time putting soft steel to high grit stones. He might well just be rounding that apex back and forth as the steel can't support the edge.

I'd actually advise dropping down to 400-500 grit, strop on cardboard and call it good.


----------



## ModRQC

Bobby2shots said:


> Yet you said "that's been answered three times" and "*others* don't read".
> 
> It's those "useless detail" questions that have gotten us from "It's German steel",,,,, to now it's not.
> 
> It's 58 HRC,,,,, to possibly "now it's not"????.



Hence useless details. And since no precisions seemed about to come… bulk of the problem could still be adressed. Meanwhile…



ian said:


> Sigh….
> 
> In other news, did you try sharpening it again yet, @r0bz? I’d read through the thread, but it’s too much work to sift through the discussion about who has read the thread.



Indeed and sorry… fwiw.


----------



## r0bz

Jovidah said:


> Technically speaking one doesn't rule out the other... molybdenum vanadium steel can be used for all sorts of things, both the German X50CrMov15 / 1.4116 or the Japanese AUS-8. It's a somewhat generic term, but sadly sometimes that's all you get from the manufacturer.
> If it's a dodgy cheap knife there's also the risk of the heat treat being botched.


thanks for the info


----------



## ModRQC

German steels they like to use the DIN designation if they’re going to disclose it and not just sell on the pretentions of « high carbon quality German Stainless Steel » without mentionning it.

« Molybdenum Vanadium » seems more like a low-tier line of such J-knives like Misono, Sakai Takayuki, and whoeverelse.


----------



## r0bz

ian said:


> Sigh….
> 
> In other news, did you try sharpening it again yet, @r0bz? I’d read through the thread, but it’s too much work to sift through the discussion about who has read the thread.


yes i tried only with the 800 gritstone it seems to cut tomatoes better but not as good as i like it to be


----------



## ModRQC

Strop lightly on your 8000 and see if it is more to your liking.


----------



## adam92

Pressure too hard on high grit stone, over sharpen on 8k, that can cause the teeth become overly smooth. For hrc 58 knife, better don't go over 3k.


----------



## r0bz

ModRQC said:


> Strop lightly on your 8000 and see if it is more to your liking.


do you suggest stropping with edge leading strokes or edge trailing strokes?


----------



## Bobby2shots

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Nah man. Yes, to enjoy the edge of the course stone and specialize there. *But the steel does matter. It's a waste of time putting soft steel to high grit stones. He might well just be rounding that apex back and forth as the steel can't support the edge.
> 
> I'd actually advise dropping down to 400-500 grit, strop on cardboard and call it good.*


Amen to that. Sometimes we just have to come to grips with the fact that some knives may not be worth the time or money to sharpen. TaR knives (Toss and Replace) For those knives, a few sheets of Silicon Carbide wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface, might be a better solution than buying stones.


----------



## Kippington

r0bz said:


> what grit do you consider coarse?


500 grit or so.


----------



## r0bz

Kippington said:


> 500 grit or so.


is 240 okay also ?
i don't have a 500 grit stone


----------



## Kippington

r0bz said:


> is 240 okay also ?
> i don't have a 500 grit stone


Yeah that will work. Just do it with light pressure.

The idea of the next step (stropping on a much higher grit) is to stabilise (read: _deburr and refine_) the edge without completely removing the scratches from your 240 grit.
You should end up with micro-serrations that rip through tomato skins with ease.


----------



## nwshull

There are two ways to cut tomato skin effectively. Stupid sharp with the right geometry, which won't last all that long, or teeth. Typically 8000 grit will be too fine, unless you have the right steel, like white 1, and then its when its in really good shape. The state of a tomato also makes a difference. The reason a tomato is hard to cut isn't actually the skin, its the soft flesh behind the skin if you flipped the tomato over and cut the skin against your board, no problem. The softer the tomato, the harder it is going to cut. Incidentally, I find its easier to cut a tomato with a polished knife going across it, rather than wedging it between the knife and the board. I've had plenty of edges that can shave off the top of it standing, but under performed with a straight down cut.


----------



## r0bz

.


----------



## r0bz

ian said:


> Sigh….
> 
> In other news, did you try sharpening it again yet, @r0bz? I’d read through the thread, but it’s too much work to sift through the discussion about who has read the thread.


update: I resharpened the knife using the 240 gritstone with light pressure and then moving to 1000 gritstone
it now cuts tomatoes well and things like cucumbers

but it doesn't work well with onions?
and hard things like carrots or hard potatoes
any ideas why?


----------



## lemeneid

ModRQC said:


> German steels they like to use the DIN designation if they’re going to disclose it and not just sell on the pretentions of « high carbon quality German Stainless Steel » without mentionning it.
> 
> « Molybdenum Vanadium » seems more like a low-tier line of such J-knives like Misono, Sakai Takayuki, and whoeverelse.


The usual German stuff like Wusthof and Henckels usually run anywhere from 56 to 58 regardless of steel type.

With the right technique you can get them blazing sharp but that would require loads of thinning, sharpening and blood. German knives are just built like a brick sh1thouse and meant to be tough as nails, don’t try to change their nature.

To show off your E-Peen, sure, but for practical use, in my experience up to 3k for these is good, nice bit of bite, sharpness and decent edge retention if you microbevel it properly.


----------



## Kippington

r0bz said:


> update: I resharpened the knife using the 240 gritstone with light pressure and then moving to 1000 gritstone
> it now cuts tomatoes well and things like cucumbers
> 
> but it doesn't work well with onions?
> and hard things like carrots or hard potatoes
> any ideas why?


Your knife is too thick behind the edge.
It should do very well with soft foods, but it needs thinning before it performs well in harder foods. It begins to feel like you're splitting wood with a wedge. This is a common problem with mass manufactured knives from many of the big brands, especially after they've been sharpened a bunch of times.


----------



## Jovidah

For hard stuff IMO it's more about geometry than about the edge itself. If the knife is thin enough you don't even need that much of an edge on a lot of stuff as long as its thin enough. If it's too thick no amount of edge sharpening is going to make much of a difference.


----------



## r0bz

update:
I resharpened the knife with 800 gritstone and the knife is now sharp from bottom to tip it cuts tomatoes well i even repaired the tip it was blunt now its pointy ...

although I see that the edge bevel is a bit bigger on the non dominant side of the knife (the left side)


----------



## r0bz

r0bz said:


> update:
> I resharpened the knife with 800 gritstone and the knife is now sharp from bottom to tip it cuts tomatoes well i even repaired the tip it was blunt now its pointy ...
> 
> although I see that the edge bevel is a bit bigger on the non dominant side of the knife (the left side)


when trying to slice an onion in half or a potato after the edge is inside of the veggie 1/3 of the way its very hard to push down i dont understand why ?


----------



## branwell

r0bz said:


> when trying to slice an onion in half or a potato after the edge is inside of the veggie 1/3 of the way its very hard to push down i dont understand why ?


Sounds like wedging.


----------



## btbyrd

Kippington said:


> Your knife is too thick behind the edge.
> It should do very well with soft foods, but it needs thinning before it performs well in harder foods. It begins to feel like you're splitting wood with a wedge. This is a common problem with mass manufactured knives from many of the big brands, especially after they've been sharpened a bunch of times.



This is why.


----------



## coxhaus

I think when I am sharpening using my Worksharp Ken Onion I use mainly 3 belts, 400, 1000, 3000. My Henckels 4star 10-inch which I cut the tomato with I used a 3000 belt any way by what Worksharp says the belts are grit wise. If I don't use the 3000 then I feel the teeth a little more when cutting but it cuts the tomato fine.

I have no issues cutting an onion. It goes right through. Potatoes seem fine also. I get a little noise when I cut carrots but no problem cutting.

My guess is the Henckels 4star knives have good grain structure in their steel for teeth and cutting which they hold. Sharpening wise the Henckels don't match the high levels of sharpness that you guys achieve.


----------



## Woshigeren

Also a rather large jump going from 800 and adding a zero 

Sometimes it is best to keep the next progression within a few thousand or even hundred, otherwise you are likely just polishing the bevel to look shinier


----------



## r0bz

I have 2 questions

1. i think I have never really felt a burr/ it was there but I just couldn't feel it or I felt something but i don't know if its a burr ..... you get the gist of what I'm trying to say
2. how do you know if the knife is fully apexed ?


----------



## Benuser

Try with a knife you don't care much about. Sharpen one side only, with a coarse stone. At some moment you will feel with your nail an irregularity appearing on the other side. That's a burr. 
With knives I don't know, haven't sharpened before, I check using a permanent marker and a 10x-loupe. So I'm sure not to overlook a microbevel. It happens you only accumulate debris on top of the old edge, without having reached the very edge and created a new apex, and only remained slightly behind it. Hard to see with a naked eye.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> At some moment you will feel with your nail an irregularity appearing on the other side.



I'm never able to feel it


----------



## ian

r0bz said:


> I'm never able to feel it



You need to try again, then. Find a knife you don’t care about, sharpen with pressure at an angle higher than the bevel angle on a coarse stone, until you do feel it. When you make a big burr it’s unmistakeable.


----------



## r0bz

ian said:


> You need to try again, then. Find a knife you don’t care about, sharpen with pressure at an angle higher than the bevel angle on a coarse stone, until you do feel it. When you make a big burr it’s unmistakeable.


I created a burr like in kingpington video

still cant feel it


----------



## ian

What do you mean? You can see it but you can’t feel it?


----------



## r0bz

ian said:


> What do you mean? You can see it but you can’t feel it?


yes i see it but cant feel it


----------



## r0bz

also, my knife cuts well not ripe tomatoes but very ripe tomatoes it cuts badly i don't understand what to do ...
other stuff like cucumber and onion it cuts well


----------



## Benuser

r0bz said:


> yes i see it but cant feel it


You don't feel it when you go with your nail from the face over the edge? Your index nail doesn't get stopped?


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> You don't feel it when you go with your nail from the face over the edge? Your index nail doesn't get stopped? View attachment 133638


its a very little catch but its very hard for me to notice that


----------



## Benuser

From Chad Ward's An Edge in the Kitchen.


----------



## cotedupy

Are you still using the 800/8000 grit combi you mentioned initially?

If you can't feel a burr off the 800 grit, then you haven't made one. If you're then jumping up to 8000 you probably don't want to be trying to raise a burr on it anyway. Use that side with light pressure for making sure you've got rid of the 800 burr. You'll need to make sure your angle control is quite precise I'd have thought, as it's going to be easy just to round out the edge and be left with a medium-coarse edge that's been smoothed over. Which is going to be the worst of all worlds when trying to cut ripe tomatoes.

TBH I'd probably advise ignoring the 8000 side of that stone for the time being. I almost never use something that fine for general purpose sharpening.

(Apologies if the above has been said previously in this thread. Also - there are a load of far better people here to offer advice, so take theirs before mine! I may be talking utter nonsense like normal )


----------



## cotedupy

There are two other possibilities I think as well if you're having trouble raising a burr on 800 grit. If the knife is _very_ cheap and thin then you can have steel that just kinda crumbles. But that's the sort of knife that is so cheap you probably wouldn't bother sharpening anyway.

Or...

Some knives - Globals spring to mind - use weird steel (I think I read someone talking about very large carbides), and have stupid geometry that is highly convex all the way up to the edge. I find raising burrs on factory-setting Globals almost impossible without re-making the bevel/edge first.


----------



## r0bz

cotedupy said:


> There are two other possibilities I think as well if you're having trouble raising a but on 800 grit. If the knife is _very_ cheap and thin then you can have steel that just kinda crumbles. But that's the sort of knife that is so cheap you probably wouldn't bother sharpening anyway.
> 
> Or...
> 
> Some knives - Globals spring to mind - use weird steel (I think I read someone talking about very large carbides), and have stupid geometry that is highly convex all the way up to the edge. I find raising burrs on factory-setting Globals almost impossible without re-making the bevel/edge first.


remaking the global knife bevels as in lower sharpening angle or higher?


----------



## cotedupy

r0bz said:


> remaking the global knife bevels as in lower sharpening angle or higher?



Slightly lower angle, but more to do with just re-making as I like, as they're pretty weird to begin with. A bit difficult to describe, but if you try sharpening one you'll see.


----------



## Benuser

So, the concerned knife is a Global?
That's very important information as both raising an burr and getting rid of it with Globals is notorious difficult. 
Just as difficult as it is to give proper advice if essential information is hidden, even after repeated questions.
Globals come OOTB almost without a bevel. Two options: maintaining the extreme convexity and sharpening with sandpaper on a soft backing (the mouse-pad method), or creating backbevels so that normal stone sharpening becomes possible.


----------



## cotedupy

Benuser said:


> So, the concerned knife is a Global?
> That's very important information as both raising an burr and getting rid of it with Globals is notorious difficult.
> Just as difficult as it is to give proper advice if essential information is hidden, even after repeated questions.
> Globals come OOTB almost without a bevel. Two options: maintaining the extreme convexity and sharpening with sandpaper on a soft backing (the mouse-pad method), or creating backbevels so that normal stone sharpening becomes possible.



Sorry - I don't know if it's a Global... I was just using them as an example of how some knives are very difficult to raise burrs on when sharpening from their 'default settings'.


----------



## Benuser

cotedupy said:


> Sorry - I don't know if it's a Global... I was just using them as an example of how some knives are very difficult to raise burrs on when sharpening from their 'default settings'.





r0bz said:


> remaking the global knife bevels as in lower sharpening angle or higher?


That's why I asked explicitly whether it is a Global. In the previous pages the question about has been asked numerous times and the only answer we got was about its hardness.


----------



## cotedupy

Benuser said:


> That's why I asked explicitly whether it is a Global. In the previous pages the question about has been asked numerous times and the only answer we got was about its hardness.



Ah, yes... as you say - if it is a Global it changes things somewhat!

I've never tried the 'mousepad' method btw. I might have to give it a whirl next time someone gives me a set to sharpen, and see if I can make it work. I normally do the back-bevel thing (and actually my Norton SiC Coarse n Fine I was talking about before is great for it - if I didn't have that I'd probably just refuse to sharpen Globals full stop )


----------



## Benuser

cotedupy said:


> Ah, yes... as you say - if it is a Global it changes things somewhat!
> 
> I've never tried the 'mousepad' method btw. I might have to give it a whirl next time someone gives me a set to sharpen, and see if I can make it work. I normally do the back-bevel thing (and actually my Norton SiC Coarse n Fine I was talking about before is great for it - if I didn't have that I'd probably just refuse to sharpen Globals full stop )


Haven't used the mousepad myself neither. The last time I had to sharpen one I started coarse (SG320) and did very little refinement, only a few strokes on a Chosera 800. The kind of aggressive edge they come OOTB with and their customers take for sharp. We'll, I'm fine with that.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> Haven't used the mousepad myself neither. The last time I had to sharpen one I started coarse (SG320) and did very little refinement, only a few strokes on a Chosera 800. The kind of aggressive edge they come OOTB with and their customers take for sharp. We'll, I'm fine with that.


IT'S A CHEAP KNIFE NOT GLOBAL 
its this in link





IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else


IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else



www.amazon.de


----------



## Benuser

r0bz said:


> IT'S A CHEAP KNIFE NOT GLOBAL
> its this in link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else
> 
> 
> IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.de


Obviously, it doesn't benefit from high polishing. Better keep it a bit coarse — perhaps you first have it sent out for thinning and getting rid of the factory edge. From then on you should be able to maintain it yourself with the 800 side of your stone.


----------



## Jovidah

Recently they changed the print on the 365+ line from 'molybdenum vanadium steel' to 'x50crmov15'. My guess would be that this is also what's inside the Gynnsam series - but that's a guess. That would make it the exact same stuff as in most of the German knives, although the actual hardness is still an unknown.
As Benuser said, polishing that to a really high grit is counterproductive; I think pretty much everyone finishes those at relatively low grit these days.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> Obviously, it doesn't benefit from high polishing. Better keep it a bit coarse — perhaps you first have it sent out for thinning and getting rid of the factory edge. From then on you should be able to maintain it yourself with the 800 side of your stone.


rid of factory edge meaning sharpened at a lowe angle ?


----------



## Benuser

r0bz said:


> rid of factory edge meaning sharpened at a lowe angle ?


No, removing the factory edge as most of them are poor and weak. Is done by sharpening at a very low angle with a coarse stone until the original edge is gone, and than building a new one.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> No, removing the factory edge as most of them are poor and weak. Is done by sharpening at a very low angle with a coarse stone until the original edge is gone, and than building a new one.


why cant i just do that ?


----------



## Bobby2shots




----------



## r0bz

Bobby2shots said:


>



a long time ago i used that it works very bad tho


----------



## Benuser

You will need a coarse stone that will cost you some €40-50, a permanent marker, a loupe and finally a few grits of automotive sandpaper to have it look acceptable again. Soft stainless is very abrasion resistant. A decent sharpener working with watercooled powered equipment will ask €7-10.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> You will need a coarse stone that will cost you some €40-50, a permanent marker, a loupe and finally a few grits of automotive sandpaper to have it look acceptable again. Soft stainless is very abrasion resistant. A decent sharpener working with watercooled powered equipment will ask €7-10.


it was sent to someone a few years back he thinned the blade and removed factory edge ,,,,,
i do not know what did he use a blet grinder a stone or a water wheel idk


----------



## Benuser

I mentioned the method used by the best and most expensive sharpeners using powered tools. Other ones don't use cooling, put an edge on it, ignore profile and geometry and have it done for €2.50. To be avoided.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> I mentioned the method used by the best and most expensive sharpeners using powered tools. Other ones don't use cooling, put an edge on it, ignore profile and geometry and have it done for €2.50. To be avoided.


i dont understand what do you mean ????


----------



## Benuser

I insisted on powered equipment needing to be watercooled. Have seen knives that were destroyed by poor working 'professional sharpeners'.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> I insisted on powered equipment needing to be watercooled. Have seen knives that were destroyed by poor working 'professional sharpeners'.


a few years back the knife was sent to someone i don't know what tools he used ....
he thinned the blade and removed the factory edge ...


----------



## Jovidah

I once brought some knives to the el-cheapo sharpener at a local cooking shop when he came by for a yearly shopvisit. All he had was one coarse sharpening wheel. They came back with worse edges than I brought them in with...

That pull-trough sharpener video is a good demonstration of many of the problems with pull-through sharpeners.


----------



## r0bz

may i ask how do you know how low of a grit should you start ?

i mean how do i know if i should start with 240 grit or the 800


----------



## Benuser

There's really some steel to be removed. I would try by 320. The reason I wouldn't go lower is that a second stone would be needed to remove the deep scratches caused by the coarsest one. But I wouldn't even think about doing it myself with soft stainless. Far to abrasion resistant.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> There's really some steel to be removed. I would try by 320. The reason I wouldn't go lower is that a second stone would be needed to remove the deep scratches caused by the coarsest one. But I wouldn't even think about doing it myself with soft stainless. Far to abrasion resistant.


i mean when sharpening a knife how do you know how low of a grit you should start with


----------



## coxhaus

I think you learn with time. I don't use stones any more as I use belts but if you have a knife where you like it and you use it for a while it will become barely dull. I can start with a higher grained belt to touch it up. You can only do this for so long until you need to start over. To me it is a guess. If the edge does not come up to where I want it then I drop down and start with a lower belt.


----------



## Benuser

For only touching up I use the finest stone or the one before I've used with a full sharpening. With my carbons a 3-4k.
I start a full sharpening with thinning behind the edge, at 320 or 400.
When I sharpen soft stainless I use only a 400 or 500. A few strokes on a 800 or so, for deburring only.


----------



## Jovidah

Someone else might have a more intelligent answer, but for me it was mostly a matter of trial and error. At some point you get a feel for it. 
Or you just get so lazy on the sharpening that you know you have to go all the way down...


----------



## Kawa

r0bz said:


> i mean when sharpening a knife how do you know how low of a grit you should start with



My rule of thumb is:

If I see big chips out of the edge: 120/220 gritt (the coarsest stone you have). A higher gritt stone is just to slow to remove the chips.

If the edge looks nice, straight and undamaged but it simply doesnt cut the way you want anymore, a medium gritt stone is fast enough (600-1500 range)

In practice this means I need the 120/220 stone (one or the other, not both!) for every knife I get from friends, familie etc 


It doesnt really matter what gritt you start with for the end result. If you start too high, the process will take a long time, if you start to low you remove too much metal. But who cares when it's an el cheapo knife.


I you have trouble feeling a burr, I suggest you give a really coarse stone (between 100 and 500) a good workout. I don't know how you are doing with pressure, but try to use 'way too much' pressure for like a minut. Maybe you are just being too gentle. If you use a lot of pressure, you will get a burr, no doubt. If not, you are sharpening a too shallow angle and not hitting the apex. Im not saying you should keep doing that pressure, but just to be absolute sure how a burr feels.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

In my opinion, this is getting way over complicated.

In this instance, you have a knife that is soft and will only ever be able to take just so much of an edge. Let's start there. That means, drop any high grit stones.

Now, unless you have calloused fingers or some other thing going on, you absolutely should be able to feel a burr on this steel. If you don't have a physical restriction and you still can't feel the burr you either don't understand what you're feeling for or you are not truly apexing. I suspect the latter.

Grind one side of your knife, let's say the right side. The left side will have the burr. You should absolutely be able to feel the difference between the two sides. The right should feel smooth and the left should catch. You should also be able to see the light reflection. If you can't feel or see the burr, there is no point in moving on. You must establish this base or you will always be frustrated. Cutting results be damned. Be honest with yourself about what is happening with your edge and focus on that.

If 800 is your lowest grit, with this knife, ALWAYS start there. If you have a 500, ALWAYS start there. And under no circumstance go beyond that stone until you are confident you've apexed your edge. A 500 grit edge on that knife should be plenty.

There is no getting around the fundamentals. Geometry can hide sharpening mistakes and is why I say not to rely on cutting performance right now. You should be able to shave arm hair off your course stone. Maybe not smoothly but it should catch and shave. If that isn't happening, you're not apexing or properly deburring.


----------



## r0bz

HumbleHomeCook said:


> don't understand what you're feeling for


yep


----------



## Michi

I can just feel the burr from a 3000 stone, but I can't feel it from a 5000 stone. Dragging a bit of tissue paper down the blade towards the edge reveals it, though. It's a crutch, I know. But my clumsy fingers won't do job.


----------



## r0bz

can i use the nagura stone on the 800 grit stone ?


----------



## ModRQC

To feel a burr, you need to gently rub the side of the blade right over the edge with a down motion so that your finger crosses the apex, not going under it obviously. This is done perpendicularly, never rub along the edge. 

Now if you had a metal ruler under hand, and would imagine it's your blade, and would reproduce that motion, you wouldn't feel a thing as your finger rubs at the very edge: it would be smooth. A knife without a burr feels just like that.

A burr feels like not so freshly shaven beard. We all have different strength of beard, but let's suppose in my case a burr out of a 5K would feel like almost nothing: really freshly shaven, but detectable depending on finger sensitivity. From a coarse stone, it would feel like a two days shave with the same amount of strokes, and from mid stone, like a one day shave. 

Hence why people when sharpening soft dull SS will take a coarse stone and say they sharpen until getting a real "hairy" burr. Perhaps a three days shave to me.


----------



## r0bz

can i use nagura stone on the 800 grit whetstone ?


----------



## ModRQC

It depends on the Nagura. And what do you want to do exactly, clean/unload the stone? If the Nagura is really fine, it may not work super well on a 800 grit stone, but can work still with more strokes. I'd recommend cleaning with water after. In some cases, I guess it could make the surface of the stone feel smoother than it should afterwards though.


----------



## r0bz

ModRQC said:


> It depends on the Nagura. And what do you want to do exactly, clean/unload the stone? If the Nagura is really fine, it may not work super well on a 800 grit stone, but can work still with more strokes. I'd recommend cleaning with water after. In some cases, I guess it could make the surface of the stone feel smoother than it should afterwards though.


 thats the nagura
SUN TIGER 23X20X71 mm cleaning stone


----------



## ModRQC

That's not a link and those are dimensions. I would guess however that it's probably coarse or similar grit enough to do the work. Try it underneath the stone at worse to see the effect.


----------



## Tapio

I remember how I always used to go up to the finest whetstone I had. The result was a shiny and very sharp edge, which didn't cut through the tomato skin too well. I was able to cut meat and fish really effortlessly but it took too much effort to go through the tomato skin. Then I learned to leave some teeth or bite to the edge and tomatoes were not a problem anymore 

Now years later I don't use anything finer than 1500 whetstones for soft/cheap knives. After the last stone I briefly use newspaper for stopping and refinening the edge. In my opinion this is a fast, cheap and effective method.


----------



## r0bz

ModRQC said:


> That's not a link and those are dimensions. I would guess however that it's probably coarse or similar grit enough to do the work. Try it underneath the stone at worse to see the effect.











King Japanese Nagura Stone 8,000 grit


Buy King Japanese Nagura Stone 8,000 grit online at Workshop Heaven. Friendly service, useful advice, next day delivery and lifetime guarantee.




www.workshopheaven.com




this seems to be the nagura i have stone


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## Benuser

I use a 600 Nagura by Naniwa for cleaning any stone, up to a Junpaku 8k AKA Snow-white. Only 'contamination' with _lower_ grits, as the Chosera 400.


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## Leo Barr

Tapio said:


> I remember how I always used to go up to the finest whetstone I had. The result was a shiny and very sharp edge, which didn't cut through the tomato skin too well. I was able to cut meat and fish really effortlessly but it took too much effort to go through the tomato skin. Then I learned to leave some teeth or bite to the edge and tomatoes were not a problem anymore
> 
> Now years later I don't use anything finer than 1500 whetstones for soft/cheap knives. After the last stone I briefly use newspaper for stopping and refinening the edge. In my opinion this is a fast, cheap and effective method.


I think that many people overlook the thickness above the blade whilst a toothy edge should help the blade needs to be thin above the edge. I am not a chef & am constantly trying to find the correct edge for tomatoes one mistake I made on testing sharpness on tomatoes was to thrust cut which although works well for me many chefs cuts seem to start with a downward push first so now I am testing sharpness by squash cutting instead of thrust cutting; this seems to help in testing so test assuming someone using a knife incorrectly seems helpful to me.


----------



## SteamingNoodle

Thought that but looked for confirmation, my *new* Kotetsu bunka, which is awfully sharp, frighteningly jitters across tomato skins until it starts slicing.
Thanks,


----------



## coxhaus

SteamingNoodle said:


> Thought that but looked for confirmation, my *new* Kotetsu bunka, which is awfully sharp, frighteningly jitters across tomato skins until it starts slicing.
> Thanks,



Sounds like your edge is not consistent maybe to wandering when sharpening or maybe wandering with too high an angle when stropping.


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## SteamingNoodle

It's so new, used it once...


----------



## stringer

SteamingNoodle said:


> Thought that but looked for confirmation, my *new* Kotetsu bunka, which is awfully sharp, frighteningly jitters across tomato skins until it starts slicing.
> Thanks,



I would probably try a couple of edge leading strokes on a mid grit stone (2-4k) to refresh the edge. If it's brand new then it's probably thin behind the edge and just needs a touch-up at the very apex


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## SteamingNoodle

@coxhaus @stringer Thanks for the advice, will try it soon, still afraid to touch it with anything but veggies.
Cheers


----------



## cotedupy

I did a couple of slightly exaggerated drawings to help anyone new understand this phenomenon...

If you cut down on a tomato at 90 degrees and perfectly straight; you will cut through it, no matter how overly refined your edge is. Like this:







But the majority of the time you're not neatly bisecting a tomato; you're cutting it at an angle, because a tomato is round. And to compound matters you might be using a push or pull cut, rather than chopping straight down. It looks more like this:






Where 'b' is the angle of your edge (sharpening angle). 'a' is 90 degrees minus 'b'. And 'c' is 90 degrees minus the angle you're cutting the tomato at. As soon as 'c' starts getting close to the same as 'a' - that's when you run into problems. And if 'c' is larger than 'a' - you’re really going to struggle if your edge is super slick.

Pretty much all cutting of stuff is the result of friction. If you don't have friction you can't cut anything. A tomato skin is fairly smooth, and if you combine that with a very refined edge you have quite a low coefficient of friction between the two. But that isn't the real kicker here... the really important thing is the 'normal force' exerted by the tomato upwards against your knife.

The normal force is obviously considerably reduced when you're cutting the curved surface of a tomato at an acute angle. And it's also reduced because the pulp is _soft. _The reason tomatoes are brought up again and again in this test isn't necessarily because the skin is unreasonably tough - the skin of a capsicum or bell pepper is probably tougher, and equally smooth. It's the combination of soft flesh, with skin that is both tough-ish, and smooth, that all together kill the friction generated when cutting it. Try cutting a wet tomato vs a dry one and you'll see the importance of friction.

But unfortunately, apart from making sure it's dry, you can't really change your tomato, so you have to change your knife. You could do this by lowering your sharpening angle, but that might make the edge less durable, and annoying to maintain. So you do it by finishing at a lower grit, with more teeth, and a higher coefficient of friction...

And now at last you can truly hope to achieve the bruschetta of your dreams, and know the panzanella in the mind of god!


[I think I've got most of that physics right anyway, and hopefully explained in a semi-understandable way.]


----------



## cotedupy

Though frankly why anyone would want to eat a raw tomato is beyond me. Very nasty things indeed.


----------



## Midsummer

cotedupy said:


> Though frankly why anyone would want to eat a raw tomato is beyond me. Very nasty things indeed.



You obviously have not had a great tomato.


----------



## cotedupy

Midsummer said:


> You obviously have not had a great tomato.



Of that I am certain!


----------



## coxhaus

The only reason for a garden is to grow a great tomato. Home grown tomatoes can't be bought.

I only eat a BLT in May and June when I can eat my home-grown tomatoes. Otherwise, the store-bought tomatoes are hard skin and no flavor. 

Store bought tomatoes probably cut easier.


----------



## ModRQC

I'd have expected after three months that those tomatoes would have been cut by now. Probably too late now... all rotten. Overripe tomatoes now that's difficult to cut efficiently. Let's start a new thread!


----------



## Bobby2shots

Store-bought tomatoes are often not fully ripened, in order to reduce the possibility of damage during transport to market. They're artificially ripened (red skin) by exposing them to ethylene gas. The flesh of those unripened tomatoes is mostly tasteless,,,, like styrofoam. They might "look good" on the outside, but that's about it.

I grow my own tomatoes, and I never pick them until they're fully ripened. The taste is amaaaazing compared to most store-bought. How do I know if they're ripe on the vine? Well, I simply "cup" the palm of my hand under the tomato, and tap one side of the tomato with my finger-tips. If the tomato "falls" into my hand,,,, it's ripe. When I cut them open, the flesh is completely red. Deeeeelicious.

FWIW, I'm in south-western Quebec. The weather here has started turning cold. Night-time temperatures last week (end of September) were well into single digits (4* Celsius/39* Fahrenheit), and I've still got tomatoes growing in my garden. The "season" is mostly done, and I'll be picking the remainder as soon as the first hard frost is forecasted.

That said, I have absolutely zero problems getting see-through tomato slices with my 6.25" Victorinox petty/utility/sandwich knife, which is approaching three years old, and has never once been sharpened on stones. Honing only, "feathering" with a ceramic rod. Cuts on the first stroke, regardless of how acute the cutting angle is.

This years' harvest was quite amazing. With 18 plants, I've managed to get hundreds of tomatoes. I give away most of them to friends and family, and we've frozen more than enough to get through winter. Our growing season here starts the last weekend of May, and lasts into the beginning of, or middle of October.


----------



## ModRQC

Yep pretty much the same over here, still harvesting from my plants every night. Soon will have to pick everything. It's getting colder fast these days.


----------



## gregfisk

ModRQC said:


> Yep pretty much the same over here, still harvesting from my plants every night. Soon will have to pick everything. It's getting colder fast these days.



I just cut down my last tomato plant this last weekend. Really sorry to see them go. I agree with everything that you said in your earlier posts. Nothing beats a fresh tomato!


----------



## ModRQC

gregfisk said:


> I just cut down my last tomato plant this last weekend. Really sorry to see them go. I agree with everything that you said in your earlier posts. Nothing beats a fresh tomato!



It was not me. @Bobby2shots made the louange of fresh tomatoes back there.


----------



## gregfisk

ModRQC said:


> It was not me. @Bobby2shots made the louange of fresh tomatoes back there.



sorry, grabbed the wrong post.


----------



## r0bz

i resharpened the knife with only a 800 gritstone the knife now cuts tomatoes insanly good .....
but carrots are hard to cut what may be the problem ?


----------



## stringer

r0bz said:


> i resharpened the knife with only a 800 gritstone the knife now cuts tomatoes insanly good .....
> but carrots are hard to cut what may be the problem ?



Try more lateral slicing motion in your cut. Don't just push straight down.


----------



## r0bz

stringer said:


> Try more lateral slicing motion in your cut. Don't just push straight down.


what i mean is that it is hard to cut the carrots i need to put some force into it compared to cutting cabbage or cucumber or potatoes things like that i cut it with ease and no need to apply force


----------



## stringer

r0bz said:


> what i mean is that it is hard to cut the carrots i need to put some force into it compared to cutting cabbage or cucumber or things like that where i put almost no pressure



Try more lateral slicing motion in your cut. Don't just push straight down. Especially for dense veggies. It helps a lot even if you're knife is thick and wedgie.


----------



## r0bz

stringer said:


> Try more lateral slicing motion in your cut. Don't just push straight down. Especially for dense veggies. It helps a lot even if you're knife is thick and wedgie.


i always find it hard cutting dense vegetable if you have more tips i will be glad to hear


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

stringer said:


> Try more lateral slicing motion in your cut. Don't just push straight down. Especially for dense veggies. It helps a lot even if you're knife is thick and wedgie.



This. ^

Try a more forward slicing motion as you push down and it will likely help. However, the primary grind of the knife will only allow for so much on dense veggies like carrots. I have knife that starts into a carrot like a razor but about halfway through starts to pop it apart as much as slice it and that's because the knife widens out rather quickly.


----------



## Jovidah

There's a significant chance that the problem isn't your edge, but the thickness behind the edge. Cutting hard stuff like carrots is more about thickness behind the edge than the actual edge itself. No matter how good of a razor's edge you have, if the knife is too thick behind it it'll wedge and eventually split the product, instead of cutting through smoothly. Even a mediocre edge will do decent as long as it's thin enough behind the edge.
The only real solution to this is thinning behind the edge.


----------



## JDC

Bobby2shots said:


> Aside from all the good responses so far,,,, I'd be willing to bet that your main issue has to do with using too much pressure on your finish strokes, effectively causing the blade's apex to tilt more to one side than the other. You can quickly check if that's the case by verrrrryyyy lightly dragging the pad of your thumb *across* the blade edge,,,, left to right,,,, then, right to left. If the blade seems to bite a bit more in one direction compared to the other, then that's a sure sign. If that's the case, try stropping the blade VERY LIGHTLY on your finish stone, no more than 1 pull per side at a time. A few strokes should fix the issue, or at the very least, provide an improvement.
> 
> Also, check the entire blade length for tilt,,, because.... depending how you stroked the stone, you may find that one* portion* of the blade tilts to one side for half the length of the blade, and tilts opposite along the remainder of the blade's length.
> 
> And,,,,,,,, get yourself a 2k, or 3k or 4k stone. 800 to 8k is too big a jump.





TB_London said:


> Simple answer is that it isn’t as sharp as you think it is.
> Super polish done well will fall through tomato skins. Look at a couple of Salty’s videos (the OG of the tomato slice vid)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just leave it at 800grit if it’s working well off that stone.



As my sharpening experience grows, I tend to agree with these. 
"The stone is too fine such that the knife won't cut through skinned vegetables" might be one of the biggest misunderstandings on the forum.


----------



## coxhaus

JDC said:


> As my sharpening experience grows, I tend to agree with these.
> "The stone is too fine such that the knife won't cut through skinned vegetables" might be one of the biggest misunderstandings on the forum.



I would think the type of steel would also play a part in how well the steel can cut tomatoes. The composition of the steel.


----------



## cotedupy

Here's a follow-up post to my one earlier on this thread: Knife Sharpening Thread

_Very _long story short... you *can* have a very sharp edge that is too refined to cut a tomato at an acute angle. It's kinda how a straight razor works - it has a kind of sharpness that has come from being highly refined, but not at a stupidly acute angle. So it doesn't cut into your (or the tomato's) skin.

Even shorter - it's all about friction.


----------



## Delat

Just to add a data point - I can take a knife (AS and White 2) up to HHT3 on an SG4k at 15dps and it cuts tomatoes just fine - either with a slice or chop cut. I’m not doing super-thin slices with a thick edge that would run into the geometry issues @cotedupy calls out, though.

For the question on carrots, effort is definitely directly related to how thin the knife is behind the edge all the way up to full portion of the blade that will be buried in the carrot. You can see it on many of the carrot-cutting comparison vids over on the cutting thread where posters presumably have all their knives sharpened exactly the same way but some clearly cut more effortlessly than others.

Anytime I have trouble with a cut in anything, I add more slicing motion as pointed out by @stringer . 

Here’s my own carrot video. It’s subtle, but you can see the Yoshikane (the k-tip) moves through the carrots more easily than the other two. When I switch to using the back 1/3 of the edge, you can see and hear the Myojin (the shorty 180mm) takes a bit more effort due to the thicker grind in that area. Some knives are ground so the back half is thicker and more work-horse while the front half is more laserish. On all my cuts you can see I’m using a slicing motion and not a straight chop or guillotine & glide.


----------



## r0bz

Jovidah said:


> There's a significant chance that the problem isn't your edge, but the thickness behind the edge. Cutting hard stuff like carrots is more about thickness behind the edge than the actual edge itself. No matter how good of a razor's edge you have, if the knife is too thick behind it it'll wedge and eventually split the product, instead of cutting through smoothly. Even a mediocre edge will do decent as long as it's thin enough behind the edge.
> The only real solution to this is thinning behind the edge.


i think when i will have the time i will thin the knife if you have tips on how it should be performed i will be glad to hear as i have never done it before


----------



## Bobby2shots

r0bz said:


> i think when i will have the time i will thin the knife if you have tips on how it should be performed i will be glad to hear as i have never done it before


If it's your first time, you might want to try something like this;

Practice your stroke "before" actually sharpening or thinning, and do it on a non-abrasive flat surface. Basically, you start by putting the flat face of your blade against the flat surface. Do this in good light. You'll see a tiny shadow appear between the apex of the blade, and the flat surface. Rotate the knife's handle slightly so that the apex of your blade now touches your flat surface, and the "shadow" disappears. You now know the extremes of how much tilt you apply to the blade. Now, find the sweet spot between those two angles, lock your wrist in that position, and do nice long strokes along the length of the surface. Don't rush it,,, just aim for consistency at this point.

Once you're comfortable with your stroke's consistency, try it on a stone. Make sure that your stone is at an appropriate height. Your elbows should be raised as you push/pull back and forth. You don't want the stone to be too low, or you'll be swinging your arm, and pivoting from the shoulder, and that will vary your angle.

Let the stone do the work,,,, don't force excessive pressure on the blade. Once you've done a few strokes on one side, switch hands and repeat on the other side of the blade. That should be it,,,,, Don't try to overdo it. Don't keep going back and forth from one side to the other. Do a test cut to see if there's an improvement, and if not,,, repeat the same process. If you need an excessive number of strokes, you're probably using the wrong stone. If your angle is too shallow, and you're worried about scratching the side of the blade, try wrapping a strip or two of masking tape along the length of the spine.


----------



## r0bz

Bobby2shots said:


> If it's your first time, you might want to try something like this;
> 
> Practice your stroke "before" actually sharpening or thinning, and do it on a non-abrasive flat surface. Basically, you start by putting the flat face of your blade against the flat surface. Do this in good light. You'll see a tiny shadow appear between the apex of the blade, and the flat surface. Rotate the knife's handle slightly so that the apex of your blade now touches your flat surface, and the "shadow" disappears. You now know the extremes of how much tilt you apply to the blade. Now, find the sweet spot between those two angles, lock your wrist in that position, and do nice long strokes along the length of the surface. Don't rush it,,, just aim for consistency at this point.
> 
> Once you're comfortable with your stroke's consistency, try it on a stone. Make sure that your stone is at an appropriate height. Your elbows should be raised as you push/pull back and forth. You don't want the stone to be too low, or you'll be swinging your arm, and pivoting from the shoulder, and that will vary your angle.
> 
> Let the stone do the work,,,, don't force excessive pressure on the blade. Once you've done a few strokes on one side, switch hands and repeat on the other side of the blade. That should be it,,,,, Don't try to overdo it. Don't keep going back and forth from one side to the other. Do a test cut to see if there's an improvement, and if not,,, repeat the same process. If you need an excessive number of strokes, you're probably using the wrong stone. If your angle is too shallow, and you're worried about scratching the side of the blade, try wrapping a strip or two of masking tape along the length of the spine.


should i do it on a 400 gritstone or 800 ?
if you know a good vid on the topic please send


----------



## matchplay18

Just my two cents. Because there is a lot of good advice here. But after awhile the lines are blurred. You need to find a good source of information. And I will say it this way, right of wrong you will develop your own interpretation of the fundamentals. I have been sharpening peoples knives for over thirty years. Advice on this subject nothing short of infinite. Even before you consider what type of sharpening stone to use. I would like to suggest you familiarize yourself with these terms. Micro abrasion, Burnishing, Apex, Convex, Keen edge, String, Degree of angle. Hopefully it will put things more into perspective when first learning to sharpen a knife. A good reference and the theory applies The Pasted Strop. I here people talking about using 5k to 6k to 8k and higher grit stones, but don't get ahead of yourself 99.5% of the sharpening is done on the 600 to 800 to 1000 lower grit stones. Somehow you need to practice practice practice. Just my two cents


----------



## r0bz

matchplay18 said:


> Just my two cents. Because there is a lot of good advice here. But after awhile the lines are blurred. You need to find a good source of information. And I will say it this way, right of wrong you will develop your own interpretation of the fundamentals. I have been sharpening peoples knives for over thirty years. Advice on this subject nothing short of infinite. Even before you consider what type of sharpening stone to use. I would like to suggest you familiarize yourself with these terms. Micro abrasion, Burnishing, Apex, Convex, Keen edge, String, Degree of angle. Hopefully it will put things more into perspective when first learning to sharpen a knife. A good reference and the theory applies The Pasted Strop. I here people talking about using 5k to 6k to 8k and higher grit stones, but don't get ahead of yourself 99.5% of the sharpening is done on the 600 to 800 to 1000 lower grit stones. Somehow you need to practice practice practice. Just my two cents


i want to thinn a knife ...
i was asking about that at what grit to start i have a 400 gritstone and a 800


----------



## Bobby2shots

r0bz said:


> should i do it on a 400 gritstone or 800 ?
> if you know a good vid on the topic please send



If that's what you've got, use your 400..... buy it's a little more "involved" than that. You should very rarely need to thin if you're a typical home-cook, and, when you do thin, you only need a tiny bit at a time. It depends on many factors, such as how many times has this knife been re-sharpened in its' lifetime, and just how much the apex has receded over time. The type of knife is another factor;,,, you're simply not going to turn a thicker all-rounder western chef knife into a nakiri or an usuba, nor should you want to. Expectations must be realistic. Balance and compromise are the key with all-rounders, otherwise you sacrifice durability for sharpness when you actually want degrees of both characteristics.

The choice of stone-type should depend on the hardness of the blade you're trying to thin, and the grit of that stone will generally determine how long it takes you, etc. (diamonds, vs Silicon Carbide, vs ceramic, vs aluminum oxide, as well as binding process)

I'll try to find you a decent video.


----------



## M1k3

Just to add another variable into the mix, flat bevels increase friction, reducing ease of cutting.


----------



## Jovidah

Thinning is basically just sharpening at a really low angle. Think of it taking the shoulders off the bevels. The two main issues:
-It will really **** up your blade finish, especially if you're still new to it, since you're likely to wobble a bit. Your knife absolutely will look like it's been dragged behind a truck for a few kilometers through gravel.
-Good chance you'll blunt the edge too in the process, so I always do thinning first, and doing the edge after.

Doing it by hand is a slow process so always start at your lowest grit stone. The idea is lower grit --> bigger sharpening grit --> bigger grooves in the metal while thinning --> faster progress.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Here ya go;


----------



## stringer

When a knife is properly thinned it shouldn't have trouble even in very hard dense veggies like sweet potatoes. But you need good technique too. Which involves thrusting forward as you push down. Any steel edge is much more effective at slicing with lateral movement than it is at cutting straight up and down.


----------



## MowgFace

This thread makes me think of Salty.


----------



## Benuser

You may find out under which angle the knife cuts the best by letting it take itself its position through hard stuff. Take a Granny Smith. Apply the lightest possible pressure, less than the blade's weight, with a very loose grip, and pulll gently if you normally would slice forward. It's quite common with asymmetric blades to see it taking a position of some 20 degrees. That is how it encounters the least friction. By sharpening you may change this behaviour a bit, especially by thinning the right side behind the edge, lowering its sharpening angle the on the right side, make the right bevel flush with the face and increasing the angle on the left side, all to somewhat balance the friction on both sides. Please be aware that with an asymmetric blade the edge is off-centered to the left. That explains the steering we want to compensate for.


----------



## coxhaus

r0bz said:


> i want to thinn a knife ...
> i was asking about that at what grit to start i have a 400 gritstone and a 800



So what steel is the knife?


----------



## Kawa

80 gritt sandpaper
120 gritt sandpaper
220 gritt sandpaper

and then your 400 gritt stone.

Starting with a 400 gritt stone for thinning on such a big contact patch takes you forever.


----------



## r0bz

coxhaus said:


> So what steel is the knife?





r0bz said:


> IT'S A CHEAP KNIFE NOT GLOBAL
> its this in link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else
> 
> 
> IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.de


----------



## Benuser

IIRC those Ikea Gynnsam were made of Krupp's 4116, just as the Victorinox Fibrox, the Wüsthofs, the Zwilling / Henckels. Sharpening not as problematic as with the Globals. Quite abrasion resistant. I would start thinning at 120 and stay a bit away from the edge, start sharpening at 320 and don't go beyond 1200, depending on what you have available, of course. If you have a Shapton Pro 2k, I would use it for deburring, but deburring only, supposing you have a 1k-ish one to do your edge leading stropping on.
When thinning, aim for a thickness of 0.2mm behind the bevels. Even if that's not realistic as with of a lot of modern German knives, as they are twice as thick, have at least the shoulders eased.


----------



## coxhaus

I am not sure you can lump all the Henckels together unless you are talking lower line knives. I had one of the lower line Henckels knives years ago and it could not match my Henckels 4star or 5star knives. I let it go but I don't remember the line. It had wood handles. I always had to sharpen it more and you know how I hate sharpening.


----------



## Benuser

The Zwilling / Henckels 4 and 5 star knives are made from the same Krupp 4116 steel, X50CrMoV15 if you prefer, even if the HT has been different, and some other lines are stamped.
My guess is your problem with the edge retention of some blades isn't only due to differences in steel quality, but has everything to with the thickening behind the edge, as with every sharpening the new edge is moved to a thicker part of the blade. This is especially critical with knives who come quite fat behind the edge out of the factory. Modern German stainless ones are already about twice as thick behind the edge than other makers find acceptable. As others have explained as well, this results in bigger force being needed go through hard food, resulting in more violent board contact. 
Perhaps you can measure the thickness behind the edge, at the shoulders. That must be quite impressive.


----------



## r0bz

Benuser said:


> IIRC those Ikea Gynnsam were made of Krupp's 4116, just as the Victorinox Fibrox, the Wüsthofs, the Zwilling / Henckels. Sharpening not as problematic as with the Globals. Quite abrasion resistant. I would start thinning at 120 and stay a bit away from the edge, start sharpening at 320 and don't go beyond 1200, depending on what you have available, of course. If you have a Shapton Pro 2k, I would use it for deburring, but deburring only, supposing you have a 1k-ish one to do your edge leading stropping on.
> When thinning, aim for a thickness of 0.2mm behind the bevels. Even if that's not realistic as with of a lot of modern German knives, as they are twice as thick, have at least the shoulders eased.


you mean starting with a 120 grit sandpaper ?
i have a 140 water stone can i do it with this ?
and then move to the 800 gritstone ?


----------



## Benuser

r0bz said:


> you mean starting with a 120 grit sandpaper ?
> i have a 140 water stone can i do it with this ?
> and then move to the 800 gritstone ?


Both a stone and sandpaper around 120 may work. Especially in the case of sandpaper, make sure to stay away from the edge or it might terribly round. All the effort would be vain if you were to lose the entire edge after thinning. Don't ask how I know.
As for going from a 120 stone directly to a 800: that's too fast. You will need a 320 or so in between. With sandpaper that might be less a problem because it wears and offers a smoother result from itself. Stones permanently provide fresh abrasives with the initial grit. Not so with sandpaper. And even if you were to need an intermediate grit of sandpaper that won't be such a problem as getting another stone.


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## Kawa

The above I agree with.
One more reason to use sandpaper for thinning on coarse gritts, stones either dish or glaze fast when grinding a big flat side.
Sandpaper gets replaced and doesnt need the maintaince *during* the process.


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## r0bz

does anyone have a video on how to do it with a sandpaper ?
i never done something like that with a sandpaper i have only sharpened with stones


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## r0bz

Benuser said:


> make sure to stay away from the edge or it might terribly round. All the effort


what do you mean it will terribly round? i just didnt understand


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> what do you mean it will terribly round? i just didnt understand



He means it's easy to use too high of an angle and round the apex. Round apexes cut poorly. You want to focus on the shoulders of the bevel and the area 3-15mm behind the apex.


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## r0bz

stringer said:


> shoulders of the bevel


forgive for my poor english but what does that mean ?


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> forgive for my poor english but what does that mean ?



The shoulder is the top of the cutting bevel. As opposed to the apex which is the cutting edge.


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## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> The shoulder is the top of the cutting bevel. As opposed to the apex which is the cutting edge.
> 
> View attachment 147493


I love diagrams drawn by hand. That's on hell of a cross section!


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## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> I love diagrams drawn by hand. That's on hell of a cross section!



I tried to find a knife to take a picture of but I convex everything so there's no shoulders to be found. So here's what a knife looks like that has had some thinning. This is a wide bevel knife that has had the shoulders eased considerably. I thin much more near the tip, but you can see there are no harsh step shoulders at the choil. The bevel has had the shoulders eased.






And here you can see the scratch marks from thinning. In a non wide bevel knife you are doing the same thing just much closer to the edge.






In this thread I talk about thinning my Shi.han. there's a lot of pics and explanation






Durability Testing Shi.Han (AKA Ginrei) 240 Gyuto


I bought this knife a few weeks ago on a whim from Strata in Portland, ME. I picked this gal up and decided she needed to come home with me. In this thread I will detail how I prepare a knife for use in a professional kitchen. Specs Before Sharpening: Edge, Heel to Point, 247.5 mm Spine...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Grayswandir

You've made the secondary bevel convexed (at the shoulder), is that accurate? Some people define the secondary bevel as the actual cutting edge, but from watching a few Murry Carter videos, I've taken on his meaning of the secondary bevel, which are the large flats above the actual cutting edge/bevel.

Are you going to work towards any particular finish on that knife, or just leave it as it is? By the way, I wasn't criticizing your drawing skills, I actually do enjoy looking at people's unique scribbles. I find it interesting.


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## Kawa

r0bz said:


> does anyone have a video on how to do it with a sandpaper ?
> i never done something like that with a sandpaper i have only sharpened with stones



Wrap the sandpaper around your sharpening stone and grind away. Just check if you are hitting the spot that your are willing to hit.
You arent sharpening, you are abrading/grinding.

It's no rocket science tbh


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## r0bz

Kawa said:


> Wrap the sandpaper around your sharpening stone and grind away. Just check if you are hitting the spot that your are willing to hit.
> You arent sharpening, you are abrading/grinding.
> 
> It's no rocket science tbh


should it be wet sandpapaer ?


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## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> You've made the secondary bevel convexed (at the shoulder), is that accurate? Some people define the secondary bevel as the actual cutting edge, but from watching a few Murry Carter videos, I've taken on his meaning of the secondary bevel, which are the large flats above the actual cutting edge/bevel.
> 
> Are you going to work towards any particular finish on that knife, or just leave it as it is? By the way, I wasn't criticizing your drawing skills, I actually do enjoy looking at people's unique scribbles. I find it interesting.



That knife is just my home beater. I use it for scaling fish, splitting chickens and lobsters, adding air holes to cans, etc. I love that knife but have no interest in making it pretty. One of my first rehandles. The wood is from an acacia cutting board that broke at work. Narrow handle is very comfortable for me in use but I hate sharpening with it. No offense taken.


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## stringer

And yes, the entire bevel face is convexed


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## Kawa

r0bz said:


> should it be wet sandpapaer ?



You can do both, dry or wet.
I would start dry on the very coarse, lets say <220 gritt.
Its all about taking metal away at this point.
Over 220 you start to think about making the knife pretty. Wet sandpaper helps evening the scratches a bit.

For really coarse gritt, use the cheapest sandpaper you can find. It will wear out fast, very fast. After a few strokes you feel/hear that the sandpaper already looses its starting gritt. Its up to you how long you continue with that part before you move to a next piece of sandpaper. Remember, you use the coarse gritt to abrade metal, so 'doing cheap' and keep using a worn out piece of sandpaper doesn't help you with that.


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## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> That knife is just my home beater. I use it for scaling fish, splitting chickens and lobsters, adding air holes to cans, etc. I love that knife but have no interest in making it pretty. One of my first rehandles. The wood is from an acacia cutting board that broke at work. Narrow handle is very comfortable for me in use but I hate sharpening with it. No offense taken.



Right on, no reason that a knife should become a safe queen unless it's a unique work of art, or comes from a famous blacksmith who is no longer with us. I don't own any high-end knives. I have two Japanese knives, one from a young blacksmith from Tosa (Kosuke Muneishi), and another that was made by the Yoshimitsu brothers, a Kiritsuke and a Gyuto respectively. One is made from Blue No.2 and the Gyuto is made from White No.1

I want to own a knife made from each of the types and variations of both the blue and white steels. I still have a few more to go yet! I have some really nice stabilized wood I bought from a Russian guy on Etsy. I plan on making them into handles at some point in the future for both knives.


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## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> You've made the secondary bevel convexed



Primary and secondary are used interchangeably in opposite ways so are fairly useless for communication. Most of my knives are sharpened so they gave a very thin cross section that is convexed quite a ways up one side and then flat ground quite a ways up the other transitioning into convex. Then I have a teeny tiny micro bevel at the apex. Really the only "bevel" on my knives in a traditional sense is this micro bevel. The rest of the geometry of the knife changes considerably from tip to heel.


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## Bobby2shots

coxhaus said:


> I would think the type of steel would also play a part in how well the steel can cut tomatoes. The composition of the steel.



Yes,,,, and no. It's not so much about the composition of the steel itself, but rather what happens to that steel during, and immediately after the cut.

With a soft fleshy veggie like a tomato, you seldom encounter resistance once you've cut through the skin. With harder fibrous veggies, you start encountering resistance as the blade wedges, so you might push a little harder, and your blade-edge impacts the cutting board with more force, which can lead to premature edge/apex roll-over. The softer the steel, the more you might encounter roll-over. That said, geometry also matters, and a small micro-bevel can be a great help in reducing roll-over and perceived dulling.

Then, there's technique;

As Stringer suggests, a rolling push-cut seems to work best for me when I'm cross-cutting carrots into slices. I start with the tip of the knife contacting the cutting board, and the heel of the knife raised. As I cut downward, I'm also pushing the tip of the blade forward as I drop the heel. The tip never leaves the board. What I end up with is a rolling push-cut,,,,, slicing rather than chopping. The tip remains relatively still,,, maybe moving an inch or two back and forth.


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## spaceconvoy

In my experience, using sandpaper wet is significantly slower than dry. You'll need to flush the paper regularly to clear out the sludge buildup. Used dry it just keeps cutting until it wears out, but the downside is all the dust - be sure to wear an N95 or better.

Even though I'm using it dry, I prefer buying wet/dry sandpaper with a rubbery coated backing. I cut it into stone-sized rectangles and lay it on top of my regular stone setup with a few drops of water between to help keep the paper in place. This allows you to use it with the same technique, angles, and hand position as a stone - but keep the pressure medium/light and stick to edge-trailing strokes.


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## coxhaus

So, I cut a half container up of grape tomatoes in quarters last night to add to the pesto we made. We pulled a couple of basil plants up and made lots of pesto. We invited neighbors over so we kind of had a wine party. 

I used my Wusthof Classic 9-inch carving knife since I have not used it in a while. I was kind of checking it out for thanksgiving. It went right through those tomatoes without mashing any. I guess the knife is in good shape for Thanksgiving.


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## Kippington

stringer said:


> Primary and secondary are used interchangeably in opposite ways so are fairly useless for communication.


This annoys me so much.

I used to think of the "primary bevel" as the one that touched the food first. Then I discovered that instead, most people consider the primary to be the bigger one (that the knife-maker grinds first)... so I re-wired my head to think of it that way. Then I find some makers such as Carter making videos using the terminology that I first thought was right. Ugh, I gave up and stopped using those terms altogether.

A good alternative is "sharpening bevel" and "the grind".


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## Hz_zzzzzz

Agree. I just use edge bevel, wide bevel if any, and grind. But sharpening bevel is even more intuitive than edge bevel.


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## Benuser

I think it's Chad Ward speaking of a relief bevel.


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## Bobby2shots

When thinning, it seems to me we might need three descriptors; primary bevel, apex (or micro) bevel, and shoulder bevel.


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## M1k3

I just use cutting edge (referring to the.... cutting edge) and bevel (referring to the face of the knife with all the geometry and whatnot).


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## Grayswandir

coxhaus said:


> So, I cut a half container up of grape tomatoes in quarters last night to add to the pesto we made. We pulled a couple of basil plants up and made lots of pesto. We invited neighbors over so we kind of had a wine party.
> 
> I used my Wusthof Classic 9-inch carving knife since I have not used it in a while. I was kind of checking it out for thanksgiving. It went right through those tomatoes without mashing any. I guess the knife is in good shape for Thanksgiving.
> 
> View attachment 147543


I've never tried a pesto with walnuts or pecans, I've always used pignoli nuts. How does it impact the flavor of the pesto?


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## coxhaus

Grayswandir said:


> I've never tried a pesto with walnuts or pecans, I've always used pignoli nuts. How does it impact the flavor of the pesto?



If you use fresh Texas pecans making pesto it takes a little more olive oil. I like the taste. I have never used walnuts. Not many walnuts around here. My pecans are free and fresh as I grow them.

Sometimes when we are making pesto, we add fresh hot peppers from the garden for a spicy flavor.


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## stringer

I use whatever nuts I have available. They all change the flavor a bit but they're all good. Often I use peanuts or cashews because I have them on hand.


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## r0bz

Amazon.com



i use this wushthof honing rod for the cheap ikea knife
*





IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de


IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de



www.amazon.de




* and it is preety rough compared to a f dick rod
i was woundering can it create a burr because after honing and looking at knife in light reflection seems simmilar to a burr right at the edge


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## Benuser

Rough steel rods certainly do create a burr, or even a wire edge exactly on top of the edge. Abrade it gently with a stone or a fine ceramic rod, don't push it back. It's weakened steel.


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## r0bz

Benuser said:


> Rough steel rods certainly do create a burr, or even a wire edge exactly on top of the edge. Abrade it gently with a stone or a fine ceramic rod, don't push it back. It's weakened steel.


should i not use the honing rod ? because it does it everytime i use it


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## Benuser

r0bz said:


> should i not use the honing rod ? because it does it everytime i use it


I would avoid any other steel rod than an extremely fine or a polished one.


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## r0bz

Benuser said:


> I would avoid any other steel rod than an extremely fine or a polished one.


even though the knife is something like 58 rockwell as one of the forum members stated ?
it gets dull preety fast 
any alternatives to the rod ?


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## Benuser

r0bz said:


> even though the knife is something like 58 rockwell as one of the forum members stated ?
> it gets dull preety fast
> any alternatives to the rod ?


A very smooth rod like a Dickoron Micro. A bit of overkill in a home setting. Or maintaining on a medium-fine stone, just as you deburr: a few very light edge leading strokes, ending with a few along the edge.
That’s all supposing a decent edge to start with, thin enough behind the edge, and not overly polished, as soft stainless won't hold.
I know three reasons for soft stainless not to hold: incomplete deburring; thickness behind the edge making you to use too much pressure, resulting in a hard board contact, especially on poly or bamboo boards; too high a finishing grit, making carbides breaking out of the already soft matrix who got further weakened by the polishing while the carbides remain intact.


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## cotedupy

Has always confused the f out me too! I've considered asking about it a few times, but now mostly just use 'bevel' and 'edge', and hopefully it's clear from context what I'm talking about.

(Same as what @M1k3 said above.)


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## Garm

Just to add to the confusion, I don't believe I've heard M. Carter talk about bevels. He says primary and secondary "edge".


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## r0bz

IsoJ said:


> 58rockwell I would say around 1k grit and stropping should give a good bite. Going much further will only loose the bite and beeing softer steel, it won't hold the edge very long so I wouldn't personally go much higher than 1k


that was the exact problems i finished at the 800gritstone deburred on it and stropped on leather for 3 times each side
and it cuts tomatoes brilliantly ...
the problem is that i was refining the edge too much
too much stropping on the leather 
and going higher than 800 grit ruins the knife for cutting tomatoes like you said


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## ch_br

r0bz said:


> any alternatives to the rod ?



A Concrete curb or cinder block and a raw piece of cardboard to strop on.

Edge trailing strokes only on both should make that steel-with-paper-clip-like-strength sharper than any rod. 

And you won't have to worry about not raising a burr or knocking the burr off!


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## r0bz

ch_br said:


> A Concrete curb or cinder block and a raw piece of cardboard to strop on.
> 
> Edge trailing strokes only on both should make that steel-with-paper-clip-like-strength sharper than any rod.
> 
> And you won't have to worry about not raising a burr or knocking the burr off!


hahahah so funny amazing
jk


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## r0bz

Benuser said:


> A very smooth rod like a Dickoron Micro. A bit of overkill in a home setting. Or maintaining on a medium-fine stone, just as you deburr: a few very light edge leading strokes, ending with a few along the edge.
> That’s all supposing a decent edge to start with, thin enough behind the edge, and not overly polished, as soft stainless won't hold.
> I know three reasons for soft stainless not to hold: incomplete deburring; thickness behind the edge making you to use too much pressure, resulting in a hard board contact, especially on poly or bamboo boards; too high a finishing grit, making carbides breaking out of the already soft matrix who got further weakened by the polishing while the carbides remain intact.


ahhahah benuser how is it i asked about a knife at the same hardness as the cleaver and you said that touchup can be done using a stone
*"Or maintaining on a medium-fine stone, just as you deburr:"*
what do you consider a medium-fine stone ???


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## Kawa

Around the 2000 gritt range. Some may say 1658 gritt, others will say 2769


And now, go to the stones and start sharpening.
I'm getting the feeling you want to theorize way too much, but you just need a lot more practise.

Use the tips that were given in some of your topics and start experiencing it.
You won't be able to use them all at once to full succes anyway, and you might even forget some since you asked and received a lot of tips.

Put on your Nike sweater and 'just do it'


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## Jovidah

Two things:
-There are multiple ways to rome, and you'll find different people have different habbits.
-HRC only tells part of the story... different knives being the same hardness but different steels can behave rather differently on the stones and/or have different edge longevity.
-Terms like 'soft steel' / 'hard steel' are all very relative...


----------



## r0bz

Kawa said:


> Around the 2000 gritt range. Some may say 1658 gritt, others will say 2769
> 
> 
> And now, go to the stones and start sharpening.
> I'm getting the feeling you want to theorize way too much, but you just need a lot more practise.
> 
> Use the tips that were given in some of your topics and start experiencing it.
> You won't be able to use them all at once to full succes anyway, and you might even forget some since you asked and received a lot of tips.
> 
> Put on your Nike sweater and 'just do it'


i dont have a 2k stone i used the 800 stone to do it and it worked fine


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## r0bz

cotedupy said:


> I did a couple of slightly exaggerated drawings to help anyone new understand this phenomenon...
> 
> If you cut down on a tomato at 90 degrees and perfectly straight; you will cut through it, no matter how overly refined your edge is. Like this:
> 
> View attachment 145710
> 
> 
> But the majority of the time you're not neatly bisecting a tomato; you're cutting it at an angle, because a tomato is round. And to compound matters you might be using a push or pull cut, rather than chopping straight down. It looks more like this:
> 
> View attachment 145711
> 
> 
> Where 'b' is the angle of your edge (sharpening angle). 'a' is 90 degrees minus 'b'. And 'c' is 90 degrees minus the angle you're cutting the tomato at. As soon as 'c' starts getting close to the same as 'a' - that's when you run into problems. And if 'c' is larger than 'a' - you’re really going to struggle if your edge is super slick.
> 
> Pretty much all cutting of stuff is the result of friction. If you don't have friction you can't cut anything. A tomato skin is fairly smooth, and if you combine that with a very refined edge you have quite a low coefficient of friction between the two. But that isn't the real kicker here... the really important thing is the 'normal force' exerted by the tomato upwards against your knife.
> 
> The normal force is obviously considerably reduced when you're cutting the curved surface of a tomato at an acute angle. And it's also reduced because the pulp is _soft. _The reason tomatoes are brought up again and again in this test isn't necessarily because the skin is unreasonably tough - the skin of a capsicum or bell pepper is probably tougher, and equally smooth. It's the combination of soft flesh, with skin that is both tough-ish, and smooth, that all together kill the friction generated when cutting it. Try cutting a wet tomato vs a dry one and you'll see the importance of friction.
> 
> But unfortunately, apart from making sure it's dry, you can't really change your tomato, so you have to change your knife. You could do this by lowering your sharpening angle, but that might make the edge less durable, and annoying to maintain. So you do it by finishing at a lower grit, with more teeth, and a higher coefficient of friction...
> 
> And now at last you can truly hope to achieve the bruschetta of your dreams, and know the panzanella in the mind of god!
> 
> 
> [I think I've got most of that physics right anyway, and hopefully explained in a semi-understandable way.]


that was an amazing explanation IMHO


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## GorillaGrunt

TB_London said:


> Simple answer is that it isn’t as sharp as you think it is.
> Super polish done well will fall through tomato skins. Look at a couple of Salty’s videos (the OG of the tomato slice vid)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just leave it at 800grit if it’s working well off that stone.



Forget the tomatoes, where can I get a Masamoto honyaki suji


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## r0bz

ModRQC said:


> To feel a burr, you need to gently rub the side of the blade right over the edge with a down motion so that your finger crosses the apex, not going under it obviously. This is done perpendicularly, never rub along the edge.
> 
> Now if you had a metal ruler under hand, and would imagine it's your blade, and would reproduce that motion, you wouldn't feel a thing as your finger rubs at the very edge: it would be smooth. A knife without a burr feels just like that.
> 
> A burr feels like not so freshly shaven beard. We all have different strength of beard, but let's suppose in my case a burr out of a 5K would feel like almost nothing: really freshly shaven, but detectable depending on finger sensitivity. From a coarse stone, it would feel like a two days shave with the same amount of strokes, and from mid stone, like a one day shave.
> 
> Hence why people when sharpening soft dull SS will take a coarse stone and say they sharpen until getting a real "hairy" burr. Perhaps a three days shave to me.


interesting so basically you describe it as more of a rough where the burr is vs smooth on the side you were grinding and not like most folks say you feel a "catch"


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## Kawa

Dear mr r0bz,

Have you allready sharpenend a knive at the angle of 50 degrees or so, like suggested a while ago? There will be a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge burr, not possible to miss.

Searching for a nuance on how people describe or name the feeling of a burr, will not make you feel a burr any better.

I admire your questioning and thoroughness, but beware you don't make quantum mechanics out of peanuts.

Go sharpen at 50 degrees angle! Now! and celebreate the feeling of a burr with us!


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## bsfsu

I think everyone one on this thread has been over come with paper fumes from too much test cutting....


----------



## r0bz

Kawa said:


> Dear mr r0bz,
> 
> Have you allready sharpenend a knive at the angle of 50 degrees or so, like suggested a while ago? There will be a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge burr, not possible to miss.
> 
> Searching for a nuance on how people describe or name the feeling of a burr, will not make you feel a burr any better.
> 
> I admire your questioning and thoroughness, but beware you don't make quantum mechanics out of peanuts.
> 
> Go sharpen at 50 degrees angle! Now! and celebreate the feeling of a burr with us!


i do know how a burr feels like i raised many and felt many by now


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## Se1ryu

Thin and flexible knife can slice tomato easily like this Global for example:


----------



## Kawa

Most knives do this fresh of the stone, right?


----------



## ModRQC

r0bz said:


> interesting so basically you describe it as more of a rough where the burr is vs smooth on the side you were grinding and not like most folks say you feel a "catch"


I wasn’t aware so much of talking about a catch although I do understand. I’m aware of a lot of talking about a burr as « hairy ». Of course up to the finest grit if you reduced and deburred, more like catch perhaps. That would be someplace along the edge improperly deburred in my book, not the « burr » as a result of primary sharpening. Cutting paper a small section improperly deburred does « catch » against an otherwise smooth experience.


----------

