# What's your experience with SG2/R2?



## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

What's up KKF?

I'm looking at getting a new workhorse gyuto, something that'll hold its edge a long time through stuff like prep and line work. My eyes are on a Gesshin Kagero 240mm Gyuto, I live about an hour from JKI not to mention I respect Jon a lot and would really like to purchase my knives almost exclusively from him. What's everyone's experience with R2? Or the Kagero Gyuto? Would love to hear some feedback, thanks.


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## Nemo (Feb 16, 2017)

Pretty sure the Kagero is in SRS15.

I have a couple of Akifusas (210 gyuto and 150 petty) which are also in SRS15 and maybe even by the same OEM (they look very similar, but as Jon is always at pains to point out, one should not make assumtions about who the smith is). If the Kagero is half as good as the Akifusa (my understanding is that it is at least as good), it's a great knife. Profile is pretty flat for the first 40% or so, then a gentle curve up to a low tip. It's not an especially tall knife. It's a thin (not quite laser) grind with enough convexity for some food release. It's not a workhorse grind (I'm not sure if by "workhorse", you mean a "fat spine, thin edge, with good food release" or "A knife that will do anything" ). It sharpens easily (probably deburrs easier than SG2/R2, which is easy to deburr itself), gets plenty sharp in my inexperienced hands and stays that way for ages. Can't say for sure if its' edge retention is better than SG2 but that's the impression I get.

SG2/R2 with a good HT is also pretty easy to sharpen (not quite carbon easy) and stays sharp a long time. I have used Shiro Kamo and Ryusen Blazen and loved them both.

If you want even more extreme edge retention, ZDP189, cowryX and possibly HAP40 have that reputaion. HAP40 isn't too hard to sharpen but the other 2 have that reputation (I've never used). Not many HAP40 240s from reputable smiths that I know of. I have santoku and nakiri from Gihei in HAP40. Great edge retention but degrades over time if left unused gof a few weeks. Unsure if this is micro corrosion of the edge (it's semi stainless). Sukenari does a ZDP. Hattori does a CowryX but it's very difficult to find now.

Hope this helps.


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## malexthekid (Feb 16, 2017)

So I should start off by saying I have two knives in SG2/R2, an Itou gyuto and a ryusen blazen gyuto, as well as a third coming (custom gyuto-hiki). And I love it. Though I will say, of the knives I have used with R2, and from the knowledge of other R2 knives, I would think they tend to sit more on the laser side of things than workhouse... I.E. thinner. But they do hold there edges for ages.

But also, you should realise that the Gesshin Kagero is not SG2/R2, go read the description on Jon's website. Your best bet is probably to either pop in or give him a call and have a chat about what you want in a knife and he will point you in the right direction.


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## Nemo (Feb 16, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Your best bet is probably to either pop in or give him a call and have a chat about what you want in a knife and he will point you in the right direction.



+1 to this.

Buy a knife, not a steel.

I'm sure that if you bring your wish list of desired features to Jon, he'll help you find a knife that matches it.


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

@Nemo @malexthekid I should specify, starting with my definition of "workhorse" I see it as a knife that can handle nearly any task you throw at it and well (as far as vegetable prep and some meat prep goes). Further, I know the steel is similar to SG2 but not exactly such steel, since it's not exactly stated I wanted to get some input on the steel it's compared to (SG2). So I see both of you stated R2/SG2 knives are usually lasers opposed to workhorses, what do you guys use your R2 knives for?


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

Much appreciated on the quick replies guys, will be sure to see Jon soon for a recommendation.


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## Nemo (Feb 16, 2017)

AndrewH12 said:


> @Nemo @malexthekid I should specify, starting with my definition of "workhorse" I see it as a knife that can handle nearly any task you throw at it and well (as far as vegetable prep and some meat prep goes). Further, I know the steel is similar to SG2 but not exactly such steel, since it's not exactly stated I wanted to get some input on the steel it's compared to (SG2). So I see both of you stated R2/SG2 knives are usually lasers opposed to workhorses, what do you guys use your R2 knives for?



My Blazen was (I gave it away, and not because I didn't like it- it's a great knife) and my Shiro Kamo is, a great middlewight, with a great balance between thinness between thinness behind the edge and food release. Both pretty good all round knives. There are certainly some thinner/laser SG2/R2 knives around.

Well heat treared SG2/R2 and SRS15 will have good edge retention and be pretty easy to sharpen. But there are other steels that might fit in this window too (aogami super maybe?)

But most of all, buy a knife, not a steel.


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## malexthekid (Feb 16, 2017)

I am only a home cook (as I am pretty sure Nemo is too) so you have to take that into account with what we say...

The profile of my knives control their use more than anything.... My Itou is a narrow blade (as in short) so to me I use it more as a slicer, typically on uncooked proteins, but it does get used for full meals at home from time to time. Where as I use my Ryusen for anything. If truth be told, it probably sits more in the "beater category" as in terms of my knives, it is one of the ones I care less about, so am happy to practice maintenance on it if I do damage it (though I do not do anything stupid with it, just take less care, and reach for it if I have a quick task to do and not worry too much about cleaning it straight away).


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## JaVa (Feb 16, 2017)

The Kagero should be a great PM steel knife that's comparable to R2. Never heard anything bad about them here, all praise. 

The most popular R2 is by far the Takamura R2 red handle version. I have it and it's great, and quite a bargain for around 160-200$. But it's only available up to 210 size, it's a very thin laser and only option is with a western handle.

The Takamura pro version is more robust. It's available in 240 size too, but they are hard to come by at times.

The Syousin Sumigashi R2 from K&S is a nice middleweight gyuto, that would fit your description of a workhorse. It's quite a tall blade. It has a nice slightly blade forward balance.

...But still the Kagero should be a very good choice and a safe bet.


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## Nemo (Feb 16, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> I am only a home cook (as I am pretty sure Nemo is too) so you have to take that into account with what we say...
> 
> The profile of my knives control their use more than anything



Yes, I am also a home cook, so take that into account.

+1 as regards the profile and grind of the knife controling what it's good at.


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

All the feedback has been very helpful, will be sure to go see Jon as soon as I can to chat about knives in person.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 16, 2017)

"If you want even more extreme edge retention, ZDP189, cowryX and possibly HAP40 have that reputaion. HAP40 isn't too hard to sharpen but the other 2 have that reputation (I've never used)"

At least about ZDP I can tell you that if you want an ultra scary sharp knife that stays ultra scary sharp .... it is the wrong choice. Won't support extremely thin or acute edges that you could eg put on carbon steel or on some SG2 knives. The strength of that material is more in the region of damn sharp and staying damn sharp.


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## inzite (Feb 16, 2017)

solid choice if you want to go stainless/stain resist. I am not able to get my R2 to become as sharp as my white 2 off the stones slicing phone book paper but slicing everything else (actual real produce) it is just as sharp. Not hard to sharpen either.


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

As far as R2 goes, how "chippy" is it? I know not all steels have the same ht and some bladesmiths are much better than others (Tanaka being the most prominent I've heard of).. but in a general sense what is everyone's experience with R2 getting microchips? If it's a problem, assuming you're all sharping at really acute angles that R2 is said to be able to handle, isn't it feasible to just sharpen it more like a regular jknife I.e. total angle of ~30*? I'd love to hear what everyone has to say. Just a note for everyone; I push cut almost exclusively, word is that helps reduce microchipping. Thanks again


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## jkao (Feb 16, 2017)

I don't sharpen at a very acute angle, around 20 or 35 total and I don't find it any chippier than other steel with similar hardness sharpened at similar angles.


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

jkao said:


> I don't sharpen at a very acute angle, around 20 or 35 total and I don't find it any chippier than other steel with similar hardness sharpened at similar angles.



Any experience with R2 or other comparable powdered steels from different smiths? If so what are the differences pro and con?


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## jkao (Feb 16, 2017)

I cannot really compare between different powdered steel knives because I haven't tried very many of them. I have only tried a few sg2 shun and zkramer knives. The only obvious difference between them is the first shun that I got (elite chef knife) I find it harder to get very sharp compared to the others.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 16, 2017)

My only SG2 is the tak, which I keep at original angle, for delicate stuff. And delicate it is. Though any conventional stainless, and also ZDP!, would probably be not delicate but useless at that angle


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## Nemo (Feb 16, 2017)

I've so far had no problems with microchipping in R2/SG2, SRS15, or HAP40, mostly at about 15 DPS. Only had one macro chip which was completely my fault. YMMV.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 16, 2017)

15dps is a machete compared to what the OOTB on a takamura is


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## Nemo (Feb 16, 2017)

Yes. My Ryusen Blazen came with 11 dps and Akifusa with 12 dps IIRC.


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I've so far had no problems with microchipping in R2/SG2, SRS15, or HAP40, mostly at about 15 DPS. Only had one macro chip which was completely my fault. YMMV.



What are your thoughts on R2 vs SRS15? I've seen videos of the Tanaka R2 go through serious use and appear to be perfectly fine. Same thing with the Kikuichi TKC (I've heard it's sks15). I'm of course referring to Rick Theory'a videos on YouTube


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

Dps? IIRC? Pardon my ignorance


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## Barmoley (Feb 16, 2017)

DPS = Degrees per side

Kikuichi TKC is supposed to be semi-stainless in the A2 - D2 category, I know big difference... It is probably closer to a version of D2. SRS15 is very different. The only well known brands are Gesshin Kagero and Akifusa, so you need to pick a knife rather than steel between SRS15 and R2, since choices are limited.


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## buffhr (Feb 16, 2017)

DPS = Degreee per side 
IIRC = If I recall correctly.


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 16, 2017)

Barmoley said:


> DPS = Degrees per side
> 
> Kikuichi TKC is supposed to be semi-stainless in the A2 - D2 category, I know big difference... It is probably closer to a version of D2. SRS15 is very different. The only well known brands are Gesshin Kagero and Akifusa, so you need to pick a knife rather than steel between SRS15 and R2, since choices are limited.



Yes I will be picking a knife as opposed to steel, otherwise I would've just bought the cheapest R2 or SKS15 knife I could find. I learned with a $100 b2 knife that blade smith and ht matter a lot, not exactly steel


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## ThEoRy (Feb 16, 2017)

I bought a Kagero 240 mm for my lunch cook and it is a very impressive blade. For reference he also has a Gonbei 240mm a tojiro dp 210mm as well as some Mac stuff. The Kagero has the longest edge retention by far. He uses it as his main workhorse daily and I've only ever had to sharpen it like once every 2 months. Now your milage may vary of course but in his experience that's how it's been. I was also impressed with the fit and finish, grind and geometry. It's a really good knife.


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## Nemo (Feb 16, 2017)

I think that Akifusa also goes by some other names (Ikeda?) but rhe OEM is supposedly the same.

The Kikuichi TKC is some sort of semi stainless tool steel. I have heard reports that it's similar to Carbonext, which is a nice steel but much softer and less edge rerention In my experience.

Oh, and apologies for the extensive use of acronyms.


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## malexthekid (Feb 16, 2017)

And I just want to point one thing out... chipping is more often a result of an overly thin edge or misuse... all steel will fail at the same point just that high hardness material will typically fail via brittle fracture rather than plastic deformation...

So no matter the steel, hardness etc... if you chip the blade then a knife with identical blade geometry will fail at that same point just might fail in a different mode...

Now if the HT has been f*ed up and you have actually affected the steel matrix then that is a totally different question.


Having said that of my 2 R2 blades, which both are sharpened with quite shallow angles (no idea what they are because I don't care about numbers) the only time I have had a chip is when I banged the edge against the side of my sink while being careless.... 10 minutes on the stones and it was fixed.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 16, 2017)

Which $100 b2 knife gave you disappointing performance?


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## chiffonodd (Feb 16, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I think that Akifusa also goes by some other names (Ikeda?) but rhe OEM is supposedly the same.



Same knife in some ways, different in others. I was not that impressed with the stock grind on a yo-handled akifusa srs15. Also found the spine/choil/bolster sharp. Since then I have thinned it and "carry melted" the edges. Now it is frighteningly surgical and comfortable to boot. Regret though that I don't know how to refinish properly...

From pictures, the new akifusa wa-handled series looks to be a much thinner grind. Yo handles still look about the same to me.

Lots of speculation that the kagero is thinner behind the edge, even in the yo series. Pictures support that. But I guess we'd need to compare in person to know for sure.

In any event, I think you'll find (or could have found, at one time or anither) the OEM knife under the following names:

Akifusa
Ikeda
Haruyuki
Artisan
Kagero 
Richmond 

To name a few...


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 17, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> I bought a Kagero 240 mm for my lunch cook and it is a very impressive blade. For reference he also has a Gonbei 240mm a tojiro dp 210mm as well as some Mac stuff. The Kagero has the longest edge retention by far. He uses it as his main workhorse daily and I've only ever had to sharpen it like once every 2 months. Now your milage may vary of course but in his experience that's how it's been. I was also impressed with the fit and finish, grind and geometry. It's a really good knife.


Thank you for the straightforward response, I'll either be going to JKI tomorrow or Saturday, depending on this storm we'll be getting here in Southern California, to talk in person with him about the Kagero and all the other knives he has in his shop


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## JBroida (Feb 17, 2017)

FYI, i will be there tomorrow, but i might not be at work when we open on saturday (the store will be open, but i have a meeting i need to be at, and if it runs late, i will be late to work). If you can give me a heads up when you're going to come in, I can do my best to be avaliable for you. If not, Josh will be there to help you out.


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## AndrewH12 (Feb 17, 2017)

JBroida said:


> FYI, i will be there tomorrow, but i might not be at work when we open on saturday (the store will be open, but i have a meeting i need to be at, and if it runs late, i will be late to work). If you can give me a heads up when you're going to come in, I can do my best to be avaliable for you. If not, Josh will be there to help you out.



I'll see you in about 1.5 hours


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## JBroida (Feb 17, 2017)

i'll be here


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