# Building a guided sharpening system for full size stones



## Barashka (Jul 16, 2020)

Hello,
*Long post warning. *
Very DYI stuff warning ...
This is my journey through making guided sharpening systems for full-size stones. ("making" used loosely as I'm just derping around).
Ideas on improvements welcome!

*Reasoning:*
- Early on I decided to go full-size stones instead of something guided because that's what all the "big boys" are using (let's leave motorized grinding wheels aside). From very early on I was wondering about "the other side".
- I also needed help learning to sharpen freehand, so I jerry-rigged a thing that helped me learn to keep an angle. The final version worked really well, both in learning and keeping an angle.

*WIP:*
- It went through a prototype process and a bunch of tinkering as well, including a clamping mechanism and quick reverse addition.
- Had a brief stint with trying to move the full-size stone too (ala wicked edge) .. don't go that way.
- Found that an L bracket that can change height attached to a rod is a good heading (like half of a reverse Lansky or edge pro)






*First result:*





It's some aluminum plates to gently pinch the knife, connected to a long bolt that controls the angle, connected to a rod with a wooden "rail guide" to give me full range over my stone.

*Simple, not elegant, but it works quite well.*
- I didn't like needing a screwdriver to clamp the knife though.
- Do like having quick reverse of the knives (middlemost bolt can be loosened to flip the knife over easily)
- Do like having exceptionally precise knife angle control with the bolt.
- Doesn't work for long knives without resetting the clamp position.
- Hand movement doesn't feel natural to me.
- Tips often need weird torquing to get sharp.
- The wooden "rail guide" should have been a real ball socket, it would make for a massive improvement.
- Very easy to set up, and very small to store.
- $40 in parts to make, you can probably go cheaper.

.
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*Fast forward a few years*, this thing has been in a drawer for a while.
Then I see a picture of this:





Unfortunately, I only saved the picture with the title "*Guided system by Bogdan*", so I don't know which post I saw it in. Please post if you can find it.

*Reasoning:*
- I don't end up sharpening very often these days, a combination of too many knives and a progression of leather strops for maintenance.
- I thought a better-guided system (for my much better knives then initial one would be used for) is in order ... both for practical use, and because my hands are itching to build something (one can browse reddit only for so long).

*A few issues for me to solve:*
- Stuck at home, don't want to risk home depot these days, so I ended up reusing part from my initial rig.
- I wanted 2 elbow joints for "complete freedom".
- I don't have an easy way of making precise shaft that connects to the base and my aluminum bars are too short, so now I have 3 elbow joints.
- I have no metal machining tools so I knew some joints are going to be loose .. this is a prototype.
- I needed a way to make a clamp .. and really wanted easy quick-release clamp with no need for screws or screwdrivers.

*WIP*:
- Drawer hinges for joints ... they ended up wobbling and actually flexing too much.
- Clamp ball head was actually a good choice because it let me fix any misalignment I'd have with the clamp itself, but a poor choice because I needed pan control separate from knife angle control
- Tried a bunch of GoPro mounts too, but they had no pan control needed to fix minor misalignment problems. Also didn't adjust smoothly or lock nearly tight enough.
- I tried aluminum cnc-ed "heavy duty" hinges .. which still wobbled.
- The clamp was, shockingly, a success .. shaped wood in a rubber glove kept the knife snug and has virtually no movement. Took a few attempts to shape the wood to fit right, it had to stay loose because knives are different but still hold tight when clamped.
- The bottom rubber pad had to be removed as it scraped the stone, replaced with two layers of ducktape.
- I also bought a Lansky clamp .. which works very well and very precise when clamped correctly, but I just couldn't give up my quick release and clamping without screws.





*First prototype:*





*Some notes:*
- Wooden rod glued into base. Aluminum 1/8" bars. Aluminum rod and pipe. Ball head with a clamp. Use the ball head to adjust the angle, and hope it doesn't shift when tightening.
- The freedom movement is excellent, I can do my natural sharpening movement.
- As mentioned above, hinges flex a lot .. at full extension, it was about an inch. However, flex produces vertical movement which is largely taken up by the rod/pipe moving up/down freely anyway. (some got translated into angling the knife though).
- Rod/pipe also wobble ever so slightly.
- The ballhead on the clamp is crap, and moves as you tighten it, also need z rotation to account for any clamping offset (z-axis = from the spine of the knife to edge)
- It's impossible to sharpen tip without moving a knife in clamp (because the ball had has no z rotation to follow the curve of the knife).
- Pretty much impossible to store, and annoying to be near when not in use, as it moves so freely and just slaps around.
- Still cheap, as only used the parts from the previous one and some wood.
- With all of the above misgivings, it worked shockingly well on the flat parts of the knife, expected worse given so much being so loose.
- Final angle wobble, as measured by electronic angle thingy is about 3 degrees ... while not great, it's actually better than what I can do by hand (as my knife got sharper in fewer passes)
- My electronic angle is only accurate to within 1 degree.


*So, time to improve *the wobble. Train of thought:
- I can't build something this precise without a drill press and a few other precision tools .. as you see in one of the photos I got a drill press holder for my Dremel, but that's really not that precise and a dremel isn't really meant for larger drilling jobs.
- I'm somewhat familiar with camera gear, and know tolerances there for video dollies are quite good.
- Camera gear can be very expensive, but I only need 10 inches of travel ... took looking for some warehouse deals.
- No more elbow joints as those are apparently really hard .. but still need a full plane of motion, so dolly on a panning base that connects to stone holder (imagine 3D printer arm or a plotting table guide).
- Need panning (z rotation for me) ball head for the clamp.
- Still want to have the clamp, it works.
- Want it easy to store and assemble.

*WIP:*





Short dolly + previous rod/pipe setup + nicer ballhead + same clamp.
The dolly will be mounted in reverse, so where the camera would go is mounted to a shaft, and where feet were now is the rod/pipe to clamp assembly.





Now mounted on L bracket + panning base + quick release clamp screwed right into wood (cut as flat as I can by hand, it's alright).
The 2x4 base still needs wider legs as it's very top-heavy and would topple easily.

*Final result*












From stone: wooden pole + large quick-release + panning base (with level, but level is meh) + L bracket + reversed dolly + rod/pipe + panning ball head + clamp.

*Some notes:*
- The panning base actually wobbles a touch too, but again produces tiny vertical movement on the rod/pipe (which it negates).
- The panning base has some resistance (since it's a video head), but turns out it's not a problem.
- The dolly is smoooooooooth, so good, just feels soo good. Video heads have a certain smooth yet firm panning action.
- My aluminum pipe holder can be better .. but it works and it's straight enough.
- Panning ball head on the clamp is great, can adjust the angle of the clamp and still pan (z rotate) to get the tip of the knife and/or even out any clamping angle and get the tip really nicely.
- However, adjusting the angle of the knife/clamp is not nearly as precise as my very first setup with the bolt.
- The clamp ball head has a quick release, that's really not needed, but nice to have.
- No need to move the knife in the clamp, except for flipping. Though 10 inches of travel isn't enough for long knives if I clamp the knife at heal .. clamping in middle works for all my 270mm knives fine.
- Quick to setup, kinda big to store though.
- The panning base + L bracked can likely be replaced by some kind of cheaper hinge or pipe/socket deal.
- I'd like better mounting for aluminum pipe, or better yet find a better vertical slide mechanism. I only need 2 inches of travel.
- The total cost is near $180 .. so not exactly cheap.
- Final wobble is *1 degree* .. vastly better then what I can manage freehand. (though my angle measure is only accurate within 1 degree)

In all, I'm quite happy with this. Great fun to make. I'll likely not mess with it for a bit.

Thank you for looking.
Comments and suggestions welcome.


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## M1k3 (Jul 16, 2020)

Best Guided system for new guy


Everyone to his own of course, but I simply want the best results in the least time. To me, sharpening knives is a necessary evil. That's why I use the system for microbevels and touch ups. Mack.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Benuser (Jul 16, 2020)

Sorry, is the same. Google's 'site:' - function. 





Best Guided system for new guy


Everyone to his own of course, but I simply want the best results in the least time. To me, sharpening knives is a necessary evil. That's why I use the system for microbevels and touch ups. Mack.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Barashka (Jul 16, 2020)

Thank you! I even commented on it earlier to ..


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## Tim Rowland (Jul 17, 2020)

Ok 1st let me say that your build is nicely documented.
2nd, Why?.....guessing because it is obviously more consistent than freehand of most people.
3rd. uuuuum this contraption is seriously over engineered and for that I think its awesome.
Although I will stick with freehand if this works for you that's all that matters.
Nice Job.


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## gregfisk (Jul 17, 2020)

Very interesting idea for sure. Most guided sharpening systems as you probably are aware work just the opposite of yours. The knife is fixed and the stone is on the moving part of the device. I have built the latter a couple of times with good results. I appreciate your ingenuity and ability to think outside the box. Mark me impressed.


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## Barashka (Jul 17, 2020)

1) Thank you!
2) Because I'm stuck at home for 4 months now with another 6 to go, and like to thinker .. also I'm sure I'll actually use it sometimes. I haven't had to sharpen a knife in months and one loses the touch. (and 1-degree final accuracy is better then what I'd expect myself to ever do).
3) I agree .. I was really trying to look for one or two good elbow joints on amazon. Unforutnelty no luck. Tried building some but decided to take the expensive shortcut for better results. Bogdan's example was simpler with only one good elbow joint on a rotating shaft (with what looks like two bearings each). Even now I kinda want a more accurate knife angel controller as well .. Once lockdown are over I might try again, but for now, this works smooth and nice.

I've tried building a thingy to move the stone while keeping the knife fixed, but I had poor results when using larger stones .. everything I built would flex too much and be kinda heavy to move. I haven't tried with smaller stones .. but now that I have a Lanksy clamp, I might see what I can do with it, it's a really nice clamp.


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## gregfisk (Jul 18, 2020)

I built mine using small stones that are about 1” x 4” so they are very lite and easy to maneuver. I looked at the link you provided and I find the design ideas very intriguing. While the concept is much more complex it mimics hand sharpening more realistically. My design conceptually is more like the Lansky system although much more robust. Because of the width of my design I’m having issues with sharpening small knives with bolsters and need to come up with a solution for those types of knives. I really like the knuckle joints you are using and I’m already thinking about a way to use them in a project down the road.


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## ModRQC (Jul 18, 2020)

But... but... but... freehand is so much simpler and fun.

Very nice build, very well documented and explained. Now flood the market and put your competitors into bankruptcy.


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## Barashka (Jul 18, 2020)

World domination will have to wait.
I'm itching again to update it to add a bolt / or something for a very accurate knife angle. 
Like I had in my first result (L bracket on a rail) .. I also very much like how simple the first result was, this one is a bit overwhelming.


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## Barashka (Apr 22, 2021)

Not that I have a lot of time .. somehow, but so sanity's sake need to tinker ...

*Things I have yet to fix:*
- aluminum rod in a rod for vertical control is kinda janky.
- angle control is really sensitive and hard to est precisely.

If one camera slider is good .. two are better.
I was planning to use bits and pieces of the second one as it's cheaper to buy the whole thing than 4 wheels and a carbon fiber rod.
However, it turned none of the bolts match (not the usual 1/4-20), so that was a bit of a problem.






But after some finagling the prototype works (tensioned by the rod itself, otherwise the middle wheel is really loose.






To fix angle control, I went through A LOT of prototyping but settled on a secondary bolt, like this ...
However control is really not smooth, bolt has to slide through a slot in the clip so still janky.







To the rescue come two ball and socket botls. RC car streeling linkage would also work, but more expensive.
Though still a problem .. the range of the connector long bolt isn't long enough to get to ~15 degrees per side.






To be continued ...


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## Barashka (Apr 22, 2021)

IT IS FINALLY COMPLETE ... almost.

*Things to fix from above:*
- loose vertical rod middle wheel.
- not enough range in clip angle control


*Nearly the final version of vertical control:*
- it looks janky, but works amazingly well .. that 1/4 bolt is very secure.
- had to use wood because I just don't have metal cheese plates small enough .. and it's lighter and I even like the texture (light doesn't show it that well) .. I might replace that if I find a tiny 1/4 cheese plate.
- wood is easy enough to shape that it lets me precisely control tension on the rod.
- I have to use random thin bolts to secure the wheels because they are just too small for 1/4 usual bolts, which was annoying.
- I still have to cut the middle wheel bolt to size a bit.
- Second hole for another wheel .. but I don't actually have a bolt thin enough for the wheel. Maybe after vaccines I'll do a HomeDepot run.







*Final angle control:*
- It works very precisely, helpful black grippy wheel is really helpful.
- Range is ~11 to ~24 degrees
- Experimented a bunch on how to get that range, but the simplest solution ended up being just offsetting the mounting to ball head.










.
.
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*FINAL VERSION* .. for now.












*Some notes:*
- Smoooooth .. so smooth.
- Still about half a degree of wiggle, but that's mostly down to the rubber on the clamp, and I'm ok with that. At least for now.
- Wood is a bit janky, works, but for aesthetics, I might do something else later to match the black.
- The vertical rod might need to be changed, it has mounting holes in it
- Total cost added was about $50 to the above $180
- *It's absolute overkill *.. no one needs this .. but sure is fun to tinker with.
- I'm honestly not sure it's _that_ much better than my very original janky a f prototype from way above for pure results. However, it's far more "out of the way" (yes hard to imagine, but it is), convenient to use and extremely smooth.

*Some possible future things:*
- paint or polish or smooth the wood holding the middle wheel, or get rid of it
- clamp can be better looking and maybe use less rubber on it for more precision
- round the corners of the aluminum plate a bit
- upgrade the base 2x4 to maybe bamboo, maybe a matching shaft
- main shaft 360 plate is a touch wobbly, there are better ways of rotating around a shaft, need a Home Depot run .. it'll also make things cost quite a bit less.

Thank you for looking.


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## Mikeadunne (Apr 22, 2021)

got any video of it in use?


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## tostadas (Apr 23, 2021)

I like the engineering. Do you have a way to adjust the angle to do the tip?


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## waxy (Apr 23, 2021)

I love how you used the carbon fiber camera sliders, also the ball joint is a nice addition.
Creative and very practical, this could work for those who have arthritis.


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## ew_ut (Apr 23, 2021)

Mikeadunne said:


> got any video of it in use?



Would love to see it in action too


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## Barashka (Apr 23, 2021)

Mikeadunne said:


> got any video of it in use?


I'll try to set something up .. not good at video stuff.



tostadas said:


> Do you have a way to adjust the angle to do the tip?


Yes, the ball had has a panning base, so even when ball head is locked at angle, the panning base still pans, this is enough to tilt the tip of the knife down .. though I still just move the knife in clamp a little. 



waxy said:


> could work for those who have arthritis.


Never even thought of that, but yes probably does well for that. I wanted to build one because 1) I started it, 2) because hands forget, I sharpen only once every few months now.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Apr 24, 2021)

Barashka said:


> Yes, the ball had has a panning base, so even when ball head is locked at angle, the panning base still pans, this is enough to tilt the tip of the knife down .. though I still just move the knife in clamp a little


To keep a constant bevel angle, wouldn't the plane of the panning base need to be parallel to the plane of the centerline of the blade? It is at 90º to the plane of the stone in the pictures and I'm saying that it seems to me that it needs to be at 15º to match the plane of the blade.

I'm a free hand fan, but I always find thinking about the mechanics of guided systems very interesting.


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## gregfisk (Apr 24, 2021)

Very interesting to watch your design process. You could use HDPE in place of the wood. It’s easy to work with and isn’t too expensive. Where did you get the ball joint if you don’t mind me asking? I was thinking about making a knife vise and that might work well for it.


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## matchplay18 (Apr 24, 2021)

Very innovative I use both freehand and some guided systems. What I like is to see are the wheels turning. I think I might just be inspired to dust of some old projects gathering dust. Very interesting thread I hope you work out the bugs


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## Barashka (Apr 25, 2021)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> ... wouldn't the plane of the panning base need to be parallel to the plane of the centerline of the blade?


There are several ways of doing it. Optimally I would want the clamp itself to swivel left-right / 90º axis to the plane of the blade (is that what you mean?) .. but alas, I didn't get to a 3D printer yet to make something like that .. eventually. I have some sketches, but no way of making it out of the metal and tools I have and still have the quick/easy clamp. I even bought a lanksy clamp .. which works really well! but not nearly as quick to flip the knife over. The rotation/pan in the ballhead base is still enough to get to the tip, just till the knife a bit more.



gregfisk said:


> Very interesting to watch your design process. You could use HDPE in place of the wood. It’s easy to work with and isn’t too expensive. Where did you get the ball joint if you don’t mind me asking?


HDPE looks great, I might get a block of that just for this kind of thing.
Ballhead is from Amazon Neewer .. it's very inexpensive as far as camera gear goes, I didn't have much hope, but honestly, it's pretty great for the price (link: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B071JWMS5J/) I tried several cheaper ones and those we really rough .. this pans very smooth, locks pan and ball head separately and ball head moves mostly smooth.



matchplay18 said:


> Very innovative I use both freehand and some guided systems.


Thank you, the wheels be turning, it's a great way to take mind of things right now.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Apr 26, 2021)

Barashka said:


> . Optimally I would want the clamp itself to swivel left-right / 90º axis to the plane of the blade (is that what you mean?)


Yea, that's what I meant.


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## inferno (Apr 26, 2021)

i think its cool that you are building this, but i'm not sure i see the point. i use stones just because i dont need any contraption. just put the blade on the stone and grind away. its fast. 

i'm not trying to discourage you though. "if you build it they will come" 

what about a bench stone version of this


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## Barashka (Apr 26, 2021)

inferno said:


> .. but i'm not sure i see the point.


The point isn't to make a practical device .. at least not anymore. At some point it was to help me be more consistent in my angles, to literally guide my hand .. now half the time I don't bother to take this thing out because it's a bit of a setup and a quick fix on stones is just .. quicker. Though I do take it out on full progressions as it produces better results than my freehand.

These days it's about finishing the project, even more about just tinkering and doing something with my hands .. entertainment, the satisfaction of completion or just making something semi-practical.

I did try wicked edge with full-size stones (waaay early prototype), but full-size stones are just too heavy to make it practical, and yeh, for anyone looking for a guided system just get wicked edge or lanksy.


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## Luftmensch (Apr 27, 2021)

Awesome project! Thanks for sharing!



Barashka said:


> I didn't get to a 3D printer yet



If Muhammad will not come to the mountain, then...









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Shapeways is the #1 online 3D printing service company. Working with over a million customers since 2007 - Get 3D products and parts delivered to over 100 countries.




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Barashka said:


> These days it's about finishing the project, even more about just tinkering and doing something with my hands .. entertainment, the satisfaction of completion or just making something semi-practical.



I know what you mean! Except.... I tend not to finish projects


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## Barashka (Dec 21, 2022)

A bit of a blast from the past ... but a new twist came around.
I saw this on amazon from Sharp Pebble .. and thought "that makes complete sense, I can hold a knife straight far better than at exact 15 degrees"





So I just propped one of my full-size stone bases to 15 degrees or so .. bolt adjustable, a bit of a pain right now, but I can make it better / faster / easier.

It took a hot minute for me to change my wrist position from the usual, but even in the short 1-knife session .. I kinda have to admit that it's easier to hold the knife flat than it is at some angle.
- I have a hard time sharpening with knife-handle to the left (being righthanded) to sharpen the other side .. usually not a problem.

.. anyway 20-second update on my eternal struggle to control the human element in sharpening.






Next step: combine this with the guided contraption above but set at 0 degrees on the knife clip .. and see how that feels.


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## Barashka (Dec 24, 2022)

Mild update:
- put the slanted stone holder on my old guided rail but removed the clamp 
- went back to my very original clamp, this way feels way more solid
- now angle controlled with a bolt






And final form:
- added much easier angle control, ~14 to 22 ish degrees
- bolted the stone holder to a door hinge .. unfortunately hinge is loose, I'll get one that isn't later, maybe even self-closing to get some tension.

End result is variance in fractions of a degree .. very happy with it, just feels kinda odd that the stone isn't flat, been using stones on flat surfaces for a long time.






I don't think I'll mess with it again for a while ..


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## gregfisk (Dec 24, 2022)

I like this set up and can see how it could help with keeping the blade at the correct angle. How do you deal with the curved tip of the blade? It seems like you’d have to lift up the handle and the tip when sharpening but maybe not?


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## Barashka (Dec 24, 2022)

That was a major major problem in the previous design, where the clip had to rotate on the z-axis .. Luckily the red ball head had a panoramic fluid base so was quite nice and smooth. 
This way the single rod that holds the clip rotates around, since it's just a rod it just slips as it rotates, the wheels are plastic and have just enough give for rotation to be pretty smooth even without going up/down. I end up servicing the tip a lot easier than on the previous setup.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Dec 25, 2022)

Barashka said:


> A bit of a blast from the past ... but a new twist came around.
> I saw this on amazon from Sharp Pebble .. and thought "that makes complete sense, I can hold a knife straight far better than at exact 15 degrees"
> View attachment 215262
> 
> ...


I have a wood block cut to 15 degrees with a stop at the bottom. Same idea. I mainly use it when teaching someone about rolling through the belly. It is much more obvious what is going on with the fixture.


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