# I'm Done With Damascus



## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 21, 2016)

I've been in this hobby, obsession, whatever you call it for 10 years now. I've had the nicest pieces cross my hands over that time and I've come to one conclusion: I love the way damascus patterns look, but the cost-to-benefit ratio is too high. I realize this is subjective and personal, and many of you (especially our new folks) are obsessing over all the beautiful patterns out there. I don't blame you. Talk about beautiful! It's just that straight steel knives are just more practical while still beautiful, especially with patina. Here are MY reasons:

1. Straight steel usually costs about half, so you can get two for one.
2. Almost all my damascus knives end up as drawer queens.
3. I haven't experienced a difference in performance in the few damascus I've used.
4. More spending power to experience more makers.

Alas, with ying comes yang:

1. Missing out on a makers true artwork.
2. Jealousy from other members.
3. More need to scratch my Acquisition Disorder.

I've sold off most of my damascus knives except for two (Shig and Kramer), so now I'll ogle at some of the beautiful pictures, but I'm going to focus on two for one's in the future. As this thread is not meant to make you mad at the internet, but to prove me wrong, feel free to get creative.


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## RDalman (Aug 21, 2016)

While damascus is fun and exciting as well, I prefer monosteel. As a pure "taste" preference. Just wanted to get that out haha. Alot of the charm with knives to me is in it's function.


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## SousVideLoca (Aug 21, 2016)

Damascus has never really done it for me. Not trying to be flippant, I just never got the bug. Every now and then a particular pattern will come together well and look awesome, but I've always preferred the look of weather-worn monosteel or the san-mai contrast between stainless and carbon.

Saved me a fortune over the long run.


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## chinacats (Aug 21, 2016)

I've only owned 2 damascus knives...one was a Catcheside and unfortunately it just wasn't quite the right knife at the time but the damascus was excellent...the other may not really count as it was the Tanaka blue 2 dammy--worst reactivity ever. I do have one being made now and it is actually not a clad knife but a mono-damascus (not sure what to call it) and for this I am very excited...the pattern is the traditional topographic map style dammy and it is a full custom mini-cleaver. My favorite of the production damascus knives is definitely the Mizuno though I have seen a few Shigs that really were spectacular.

As to monosteel knives, I love them until it is time to thin and then they become a complete *****!


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## easy13 (Aug 21, 2016)

Don't really have anything Damascus minus a secondhand Mr Itou butcher knife I really like. While ago sold a Tanaka blue 2 because the reactivity makes it useless to me. Wanted a change of pace and picked up a 240 Kamo R2 recently and really like it. Real solid grind and heat treatment, otb edge is still sticking in sani tuff after 5 days of work with only a few strokes on Mac Black to touch up. Nice height at heel, flat spot, and a tip that is thin and nimble. F&F is quality and the pattern/etching ain't bad either, similar to Tanaka R2. Currently running as my main prep 240, ripping through product and only goes for around $250. Will I buy another Damascus to follow, most probably not, but having fun with this one currently.


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 21, 2016)

I think of Damascus as two distinct options: cladding, and coreless/mono-steel.

With the former, it is often aesthetic, but some knifemakers state there are benefits beyond looking nice. I've read that Shigefusa Kitaeji cladding for single bevels prevent warping, and Shinichi Watanabe told me something similar (to the effect that the randomly oriented layers add toughness) in an email when I asked about his kintaro-ame knives. Makes sense intuitively, and similar I suppose to fiber reinforcement in concrete.

With the latter, I've read (there are some threads here, and one recent) that the Damascus cutting edge wears at different rates, so in a sense creates micro serrations and helps with edge retention. Certain patterns and higher layers would presumably be better for this.


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## AllanP (Aug 21, 2016)

Depends on what damascus we are talking about

sometimes you are forced to buy it because some their best work just happen to have damascus cladding, Tanaka r2 for example, and also I heard Mizuno damascus clad gyuto are ground differently.


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## JaVa (Aug 21, 2016)

I didn't used to care about damascus. I have not been against it, just indifferent about it. When I bought my Tanaka damascus nakiri it was because of other qualities and it just happened to be one. Recently I've been warming up to it though. 

Sometimes there's no extra cost for the damascus. Tanaka vg10 damascus and vg10 nashiji cost about the same and Shiro Kamo Damascus B2 and KU B2 cost exactly the same at Cleancut.


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## rami_m (Aug 21, 2016)

Funnily enough one of my best knives is a Damascus. Was a custom where I chose the pattern and steel and the maker did their magic. Turned out well.


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## supersayan3 (Aug 21, 2016)

I like Damascus, I like hammer finish as well, but I also like the minimal pure beauty of a Monosteel.
Honyaki mirror polished is my favorite, check the beauty of the Mizuno Honyaki cleaver with the dragon.
I have never seen it in person, but that Takeshi Saji colorful Damascus, must be amazing


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## panda (Aug 21, 2016)

I think Damascus is stupid, think highly of hammer finish however. But I also think buying knives for looks is silly as well.


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## WildBoar (Aug 21, 2016)

I'll admit I enjoyed using my san mai damascus Burke scimitar this morning to portion out a 10+ lb beef roast.

I have plenty of knives that are pure utility. A knife like the Burke is functional artwork to me. It is quite sharp and holds an edge very well, although a monosteel would work just as well. But hell, I have oil paintings, sculptures, rugs, antique furniture etc. around, so I see value in things that are aesthetically pleasing. To me it is important not to keep a knife like that in a drawer, as it needs to be seen/ handled periodically to get the enjoyment of the aesthetics.

Part of the key to me is not buying something like that if the funds are needed for something more vital.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 21, 2016)

Hey guys, part of the reason of this thread is a little tongue in cheek, part is to start a new and interesting topic outside the norm, and part is to show the natural evolution of utility as we get older. Don't get me wrong, I love beautiful things. Knowing myself, I will probably succumb to a beautiful Damascus knife in the future, but a big part of my utility has to do with my major change in life I'm going through. Retiring at a young age from the military, moving across the country, working on a grad degree, getting engaged, recovering from major shoulder surgery, tending to a new puppy, and looking for a new job takes a lot out of person. Yes, this is all happening right now. I'll say this, I love seeing all the beautiful work being introduced these days. That river of fire Burke was unbelievable. Truly amazing.


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## RDalman (Aug 21, 2016)

I just want to be clear that I don't think there's any less "performance" or such associated just because a steel is patternwelded...


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 21, 2016)

RDalman said:


> I just want to be clear that I don't think there's any less "performance" or such associated just because a steel is patternwelded...



I definitely didn't think that of your post. I think we all know what you meant.


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## RDalman (Aug 21, 2016)

Haha thanks. I always worry a little about my "swenglish"


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 21, 2016)

RDalman said:


> Haha thanks. I always worry a little about my "swenglish"



It's better than many primary language writers lol.


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## SliceNDice (Aug 21, 2016)

Reading through this thread is a relief, because I can't afford damascus anyway :biggrin:


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## Eric (Aug 21, 2016)

Damascus is, to me, art. I'm also represents human ingenuity. It was once a way to produce superior steel, but that is no longer true. But the history and techniques are so vital to knifemaking as a whole, they deserve attention by anyone interested in knife/sword making, IMO. In its best form it is also very functional. It's true, my Damascus knives are in general, drawer queens, and there isn't one I can think of that I would by for pure function. However, I still love them! There are a few I will never sell, and if I could afford to I would buy more. However, to me mono steel or clad knives are the ones I use daily. Who can really compete with a ginsanko tanaka, that new cost me around 110 dollars! Even knives I've made have cost more just in materials really. So the argument to me is moot. Damascus knives are a distinct genre of kitchen knife, and cannot imagine one ever being the best choice in a pro environment from a function standpoint. But if I could.......


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## strumke (Aug 21, 2016)

AllanP said:


> Depends on what damascus we are talking about
> 
> sometimes you are forced to buy it because some their best work just happen to have damascus cladding, Tanaka r2 for example, and also I heard Mizuno damascus clad gyuto are ground differently.



Ditto... my only damascus is a Tanaka R2, an that's actually the only thing I'm not a big fan of on that knife. While I do drool over some awesome looking damascus blades quite often, I usually wouldn't really want to own them as kitchen knives (catscheside feather, Radar's ladder, and a few of Haburn's recent patterns are my exceptions). Others tend to look too gaudy for me.


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## Lucretia (Aug 22, 2016)

Most of my knives are damascus. If I worked in a pro kitchen, it would be different. But cooking for 2, there just isn't that much wear and tear on them, and they are a joy to use. And they all get used. If they didn't cut well, I'd get rid of them. They cut well, they're beautiful, and a lot of fun.


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## XooMG (Aug 22, 2016)

As I do more polishing on stones, sometimes I think it's nice to have a visual treat hiding under the surface to be discovered, whether it's banding or a welded pattern.


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## cheflivengood (Aug 22, 2016)

What Damascus has the OP owned?


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 22, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> What Damascus has the OP owned?



In my original post I said I still have my Shigefusa and original Kramer. Feel free to check out my gallery as well, although there is probably a few missing there.


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## heldentenor (Aug 22, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> What Damascus has the OP owned?



If I said "the best of the best" I doubt I would be exaggerating.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 22, 2016)

The fact that resellers are so unclear about which of the damascus-clad knives use a handmade cladding ("handfolded" and "handwelded" are IMHO very ambigous! Could mean a warikomi made of with a rolled cladding) and which use a rolled laminate doesn't help exactly... 

....

If you are looking at the mainstream market, the marketing is clever: People understand they are better due to layered steel (they are, compared to standard stainless - but mostly due to the VG5/VG10 sanmai and not the pattern welding. Both are layered steel techniques  ), and they aren't even technically wrong


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## cheflivengood (Aug 22, 2016)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> In my original post I said I still have my Shigefusa and original Kramer. Feel free to check out my gallery as well, although there is probably a few missing there.



I guess my journey has been the opposite of yours. I never really understood the Damascus thing in the begging when I was in fine dinning doing ridiculous amounts of not only heavy hitting work but very fine delicate work too. If I didn't have a very sharp knife for each of those tasks I would have been spending way too much time sharpening haha (had about a dozen in the rotation, all differnt sizes and types). So back then it would have been impossible to have all those knives be a show knife so i stuck to mono steel or san-mi. Once I got out of that life I started selling off batches and buying nicer stuff...etc... and now, being the chef owner, I have really only 2 that I need everyday one being a maumasi show piece. I never have used a knife with as much soul as the maumasi, it has weight to it, not just grams but like he put himself into it, and I think that if most makers had the experience/training or the financial freedom to only make Damascus, I am sure they would. I understand that only making 150-200 knives a year (or however many Kramer can knock out) is incredibly unrealistic if you are raising a family or sporting a spouse. I don't see myself going back to Japanese makers or using anything other than Damascus because it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, its the same as my natural stones, I will be the first to tell you that synthetics work faster and will do just a good job at making a knife sharp but its the history and awesomeness of them that makes them appealing to me. $.02


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 23, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> I guess my journey has been the opposite of yours. I never really understood the Damascus thing in the begging when I was in fine dinning doing ridiculous amounts of not only heavy hitting work but very fine delicate work too. If I didn't have a very sharp knife for each of those tasks I would have been spending way too much time sharpening haha (had about a dozen in the rotation, all differnt sizes and types). So back then it would have been impossible to have all those knives be a show knife so i stuck to mono steel or san-mi. Once I got out of that life I started selling off batches and buying nicer stuff...etc... and now, being the chef owner, I have really only 2 that I need everyday one being a maumasi show piece. I never have used a knife with as much soul as the maumasi, it has weight to it, not just grams but like he put himself into it, and I think that if most makers had the experience/training or the financial freedom to only make Damascus, I am sure they would. I understand that only making 150-200 knives a year (or however many Kramer can knock out) is incredibly unrealistic if you are raising a family or sporting a spouse. I don't see myself going back to Japanese makers or using anything other than Damascus because it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, its the same as my natural stones, I will be the first to tell you that synthetics work faster and will do just a good job at making a knife sharp but its the history and awesomeness of them that makes them appealing to me. $.02



That sure as hell sounds like a strong argument for Damascus to me!


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## cheflivengood (Aug 23, 2016)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> That sure as hell sounds like a strong argument for Damascus to me!



:hungry:


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## Anton (Aug 23, 2016)

Sure Damascus won't perform any better than your average street steel, it costs more, demands more off you - higher maintenance, but when you use it... hmmmm. At times I find myself just thinking about it all. Sounds like some of my ex's already...

Sure you can look away or waste your time arguing about this to the nth but then how do you keep it in your pants when Damascus looks like this??


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## zetieum (Aug 23, 2016)

Anton said:


> Sure Damascus won't perform any better than your average street steel, it costs more, demands more off you - higher maintenance, but when you use it... hmmmm. At times I find myself just thinking about it all. Sounds like some of my ex's already...
> 
> Sure you can look away or waste your time arguing about this to the nth but then how do you keep it in your pants when Damascus looks like this??



BOOM. :shocked3: You nailed the thread. 
Nothing can be rational discussed after that.


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## Lucretia (Aug 24, 2016)

Yeah, that Mr. Thomas makes some ok damascus that's mighty fun to use. And his handles aren't half bad, either.


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## DevinT (Aug 24, 2016)

Damascus will hold it's value better than mono steel knives. Knives only have value if you can resell them for more than you paid. (Collector value)

Very few makers use damascus exclusively. Most offer it as an upgrade. 

I'm not a fan of all damascus, it needs to well thought out and executed. Correct choice of materials and proper heat treating is neccesary, along with good etching/finishing.

Mostly making damascus fills a need for me on the creative side of things. Making damascus is a disease with no known cure.

An integral damascus knife, for a knife maker, shows the highest level of craftsmanship.

Thanks Anton and Lucretia.

Hoss


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## GRoc (Aug 24, 2016)

DevinT said:


> An integral damascus knife, for a knife maker, shows the highest level of craftsmanship.
> 
> Hoss




Hi Hoss,

What do you mean by integral damascus? Solid damascus and not an outer laminated jacket on some type of core steel?

(big fan of your designs by the way, looking forward to get one of your damascus billets at some point in the future)

Additionally, and hoping not to get too far off the OP, could one do differential hardening (honyaki) on damascus ? If not, why?


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## DevinT (Aug 24, 2016)

GRoc said:


> Hi Hoss,
> 
> What do you mean by integral damascus? Solid damascus and not an outer laminated jacket on some type of core steel?
> 
> ...



Integral refers to the bolster/guard and blade forged from one piece of damascus.

Hoss


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## cheflivengood (Aug 24, 2016)

GRoc said:


> Hi Hoss,
> 
> What do you mean by integral damascus? Solid damascus and not an outer laminated jacket on some type of core steel?
> 
> ...



Bob Kramer and Ian "Rogers" Haburn have recently been doing differential hardening on damascus


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## Salty dog (Aug 25, 2016)

In general I agree yet my favorite knife is and always has been my Mizuno Tanrenjo 240 carbon suminagashi.


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## drawman623 (Aug 25, 2016)

rami_m said:


> Funnily enough one of my best knives is a Damascus. Was a custom where I chose the pattern and steel and the maker did their magic. Turned out well.



Home cook with a Damascus habit. 
My Hinoura or Hattori KD may be display only but the Shigs get used. Using a fine Damascus deba to break down a big fish can be as rewarding as catching the fish in the first place.

In my case, this issue is an easy one. I see the art of any knife before its ultimate utility. Technical mastery would change that dynamic...sometimes ignorance is bliss


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 25, 2016)

Exactly opposite for me ... I have a huge lot to learn technique wise, and I tend to always end up with non damascus (inexpensive VGx in the low $$ range excepted  because I kind of like spending all the money on something as well performing (I find that nothing confuses a learner more than tools that elicit doubt) and/or quintessential as possible.


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 25, 2016)

Good to see ya back Salty :cool2:

I'm hoping to get something with differentially hardened Damascus, although the intention is to have a high number of layers to the point it may not really be noticeable.


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## malexthekid (Aug 26, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Good to see ya back Salty :cool2:
> 
> I'm hoping to get something with differentially hardened Damascus, although the intention is to have a high number of layers to the point it may not really be noticeable.



Intrigued why you would want to have it so it is almost not noticeable? Purely just having it done because you can?


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 26, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Intrigued why you would want to have it so it is almost not noticeable? Purely just having it done because you can?



I'm thinking along the line of having it being random high layer similar to the Katana posted below... you really have to look to see the layers, although etching may make it more obvious. With a coreless Damascus I see this as being beneficial at the cutting edge (and cool too :cool2: ). I don't recall the links for the threads about the benefits of this but it has come up here before.



MAS4T0 said:


>


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 26, 2016)

Salty dog said:


> In general I agree yet my favorite knife is and always has been my Mizuno Tanrenjo 240 carbon suminagashi.



Long time no talk.


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## Salty dog (Aug 27, 2016)

Yes it has been. Life, it's amazing what it will throw at you. It's a little different these days. 
Down to about 20 knives.


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## Beau Nidle (Aug 27, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Good to see ya back Salty :cool2:
> 
> I'm hoping to get something with differentially hardened Damascus, although the intention is to have a high number of layers to the point it may not really be noticeable.



The main thing that would make the layers less noticeable is to use two similar steels. In carbon steels, most smiths will use something like 1080 and 15n20 because they respond very differently to the etching process, the high nickel content of the 15n20 leaving it brighter after etching. If you were to ask for a knife made using say, 1050 and 1095, you would get a much more subtle pattern than what you usually see. A high number of layers will also help.

If I remember rightly, it was the smelting and forging process itself that gave a Katana the patterned look, rather than the process of using two distinctly different steels which is more common today.


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