# Inexpensive knives to teach myself hand sharpening with



## cabarete_cub (Jun 12, 2014)

Hello everybody,

I'm beginning to learn hand sharpening. From reading countless threads I gathered that most important first step would
be achieving consistent burr along the length of the edge. I tried two knives, both stainless. First is $2 chef's knife (Victorinox Fibrox clone),
and I failed to produce any burr to speak of, hard as I tried. Another is ~$25 decent looking no-brand. 10-15 strokes on 1000 Chosera
stone was enough to raise a (smallish, but perceptible) burr.

So, which knife/steel with decent feedback can be recommended to a beginner sharpener?

Have a good day.


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## riba (Jun 12, 2014)

Carbon opinel


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## Lizzardborn (Jun 12, 2014)

Mora - hardened to 58 HRC. And 15 euro for a knife.


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## Benuser (Jun 12, 2014)

Welcome aboard! Any basic carbon steel blade. Old Hickory, Robert Herder, carbon Sabatier...
Cheap soft stainless can be very difficult to get sharp. Only possible with very coarse stones and huge pressure. Don't try it with your good Chosera.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 12, 2014)

riba said:


> Carbon opinel



I just love it. Going to order one.



Lizzardborn said:


> Mora - hardened to 58 HRC. And 15 euro for a knife.



Thank you very much. This is one beautiful knife (I mean Mora Classic 1 in particular). 

So, bottom line is that carbon steel in general is better to develop one's feel and touch, right?


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 12, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Welcome aboard! Any basic carbon steel blade. Old Hickory, Robert Herder, carbon Sabatier...
> Cheap soft stainless can be very difficult to get sharp. Only possible with very coarse stones and huge pressure. Don't try it with your good Chosera.



Thank you. 

And with regards to cheap soft stainless: ironically, they seem to be better left for a professional to deal with (and the edge won't hold for a week. Very Zen, but 
I'm not there yet and have to care of the stones too).


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## Ruso (Jun 12, 2014)

I would not start with Opinel. Small knives and especially folders are harder to sharpen in my opinion compared to something 160mm+

Also, learning on cheap stainless steel knives is totally OK. You wont get mind blowing results, but you need to learn the technique and develop angle holding muscle memory and any knife will do.


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## Benuser (Jun 12, 2014)

I tend to agree about the folders. A large blade is easier. About the cheap stainless: large carbides make things much more complicated, especially deburring.


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## CompE (Jun 12, 2014)

The first knives that I practiced sharpening on were just my old stainless steel knives that I had laying around. I don't recommend this as a starting point; soft stainless steel simply doesn't get sharp and it is an exercise in frustration while you try to figure out what you are doing wrong.

I'd start with an Old Hickory cleaver since it's cheap (~$20), straight and the carbon sharpens up easily. I'd then move on to a knife with a little more curve, an Old Hickory slicking knife (~$10) and then move on to something with a more serious curve, and Old Hickory butcher's knife (~$10). That will progress you through the feel of holding an angle and keeping that angle through a curve. There's a good chance that OOTB the Old Hickory knives will have a crap wide bevel that you can use to learn how to flatten a bevel and thin behind the edge as well.

After that, I'd switch to a cheap bolsterless stainless steel. You'll have to sharpen at a more obtuse angle, and don't expect it to get nearly as sharp, and it will create a nasty burr that will be hard to remove. It's useful for practice reducing a burr and deburring because they are such a pain. The Old Hickory knives will be useful after you are done using them for practice; this one won't be.

After that, you will be well set to start on a better double-bevel knife, although you will need to learn nuances that come with each geometry; a Suisin Inox Gyuto is slightly different from a Takeda, but you will have the basics of holding an angle, forming a burr and removing it.

Single bevel knives are a completely different story. I oersonally need to get a practice Usaba one of these days, but I have no use for any single-bevel knives.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 12, 2014)

CompE, thank you for sharing. I figured it must be either my complete lack of sensitivity - after good ten minutes of rubbing one side 
I wasn't able to tell which side was it by simply touching the edge - or there's something the matter with the steel. And, yes, it was
the plan to start with something straight, and, once hand position is more or less established, then curves. As for the cheap stainless -
not before I get to the next level (or the microscope I've ordered for the purpose arrives). Otherwise it is, like you said is an exercise
in frustration. The difference between $2 knife and $25 one - which is more like $15, I suspect - is simply amazing.


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## WingKKF (Jun 13, 2014)

Another good option is to get a coarser grit waterstone to sharpen all those cheap stainless knives with. Something like a Gesshin 400 or Shapton Glass Stone 500 grit stone is a good place to start. You should have no trouble getting a burr with those. Then you can practice on the blunt stainless knives of your family and friends.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 13, 2014)

WingKKF said:


> Then you can practice on the blunt stainless knives of your family and friends.



Yes, that's how I envisioned my first step on the path to sharpening glory too. And I have 400 Chosera. And I was able to
get both my kitchen knives (more on the way) considerably sharper without any major screwups. I also got my first revelation, 
namely that most people never experienced cutting with sharp knife in their lives. Wow. I saw people spending literally tens of 
thousands on kitchen furniture, pots and such. And then they cook with blunt knives. We, people, are funny species.


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## Ruso (Jun 13, 2014)

> Yes, that's how I envisioned my first step on the path to sharpening glory too. And I have 400 Chosera. And I was able to
> get both my kitchen knives (more on the way) considerably sharper without any major screwups. I also got my first revelation,
> namely that most people never experienced cutting with sharp knife in their lives. Wow. I saw people spending literally tens of
> thousands on kitchen furniture, pots and such. And then they cook with blunt knives. We, people, are funny species.


+1, I am pretty sure the above sums up many people first steps!


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 13, 2014)

Sounds like you are on your way just the desire to learn will get you there. You can also find older cheap carbon blades on E-Bay. Japan woodworker has some smaller carbon blades that sharpen quite easy.

When first learning to sharpen beginning on cheap stainless is not a good idea. Cheap carbon much better you see results quickly if your technique is good. Burr removal much easier. It is good to have steel properties on your side so you do not give up in frustration :dazed:


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## LKH9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Practicing on cheap stainless is a good start actually, it adds extra challenge so that you have to be more mindful in what you're doing. It's more important to know how to sharpen cheap stainless steel because the majority of the knives you will encounter are these, from friends or families. It's the most common thing you will need to sharpen a lot.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 13, 2014)

Depends on how cheap the stainless. Many are very dull & take work to establish an edge. Not exactly in the favor of someone just learning.

I first learned to sharpen on Forschners which is decent stainless. When I got into carbons I loved the way they sharpened.

I know some believe that starting with junk steel if you succeed than your skills can tackle anything. I sharpen a lot of stainless steel for others, have a system for it so do not waste too much time on crappy knives. 

You have to be mindful when starting sharpening with any knives if you want to be successful. I enjoy teaching freehand. Most of the cooks in the field I have taught now have quality stainless or carbon Gyuto's.

At the KCC culinary school where I teach freehand the school sells kits at the bookstore. The older students got the Victorinox fibrox set with a chef bag. Now they got a better deal more items in the bag on bottom of the line Mercers wt. Hrt in the low 50's. They are harder to sharpen than the Victorinox, thick behind the edge soft steel. I am getting the school to change back to the better kit.

Quite a few have Shuns because they get a large discount. I find the VG-10 steel easy to sharpen. Others on my reccom. have gotten knives like Fujiwara, Tojiro DP, Suisin Inox, Carbonext, Hiromoto AS, Gesshin Uraku, Kohetsu AS. A few have purchased even higher quality Gyuto from the sites I provide.

Keeping a steady spine, creating an even burr, blended primary & secondary bevels removing burr much prefer good steel & they learn faster too.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 14, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> It's more important to know how to sharpen cheap stainless steel because the majority of the knives you will encounter are these, from friends or families. It's the most common thing you will need to sharpen a lot.



The idea is to eliminate as many unknowns as possible to make my first steps easier and let me build some confidence. Then I'll dance from there.
I know I'm looking forward to plenty of low quality stainless and will surely get to this as soon as my skill builds at least a little.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 14, 2014)

The knives on their way to be my first lab pets: Victorinox Chef's, Mora Classic, Opinel (the former two not being exactly kitchen knives, but carbon steel and I just loved
them. Both will make for a very nice and inexpensive present, too), and some $25 Japanese carbon Santoku. Maybe should've gone a bit higher. Decent Japanese knives
(VG-10 in particular) seem to start in the ballpark of $50-60. OK, next time.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 14, 2014)

Would I be in US, Old Hickory is a very good option. A whole bunch of used ones can be found on ebay for $20 or so.
And restoring an abandoned tool is an added bonus. But unfortunately shipping charges are prohibitively high.


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## nerologic (Jun 16, 2014)

Are there any stores near you that sell used/antique items? You might be able to find old carbon knives there. That's what I started with, and it gave me the confidence to sharpen my nice stuff without worry. I also found some chipped and damaged blades that were good for practicing edge and tip repair. Now I fix knives for friends who ding theirs up without worrying I'll make them worse, hah.


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## Mrmnms (Jun 16, 2014)

It sounded like your original issue was generating a consistent burr, not removing the burr you created, regardless of the kind of steel you're sharpening. If you're still having trouble raising a burr, maybe re think the angle you're sharpening at.


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## LKH9 (Jun 17, 2014)

> It sounded like your original issue was generating a consistent burr, not removing the burr you created, regardless of the kind of steel you're sharpening. If you're still having trouble raising a burr, maybe re think the angle you're sharpening at.



Ya, you can get any steel razor sharp if the angle is right, the only difference is the edge retention between stainless and carbon. Stainless steel is a bit harder to grind though, I feel.

I just sharpened a totally dull KIWI brand petty knife, cheap stainless steel, now it's paper-slicing sharp!


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## Lizzardborn (Jun 17, 2014)

Isn't paper considered to be just a starting point for a knife sharpness?


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## Ruso (Jun 17, 2014)

Lizzardborn said:


> Isn't paper considered to be just a starting point for a knife sharpness?



Never heard of the above. It all depends on the type of paper, angle you cut the paper with, push or pull cut, the sound it makes while cutting the paper and ease of movement, etc. The more you test using the same method (paper, hair, finger, whatever) the better understanding of the results you get.


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## LKH9 (Jun 17, 2014)

Lizzardborn said:


> Isn't paper considered to be just a starting point for a knife sharpness?



When your knife can slice through a piece of A4 paper/newspaper without any difficulty and without using any strength, it's more than enough for cutting food. Only sashimi knives need that extreme hair-popping sharpness, that kind of sharpness is not durable on general purpose knives.

When you can push-cut A4 paper, that sharpness you can also shave your hair with.

And, you can easily detect the dull parts of your knives' edge if it doesn't go through the paper smoothly.

My method of testing for sharpness is by feeling it with finger 1st, feel the burr, remove burr and strop on a piece of cardboard, when it feels sharp on the finger tips, try it on paper finally.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 17, 2014)

Mrmnms said:


> It sounded like your original issue was generating a consistent burr, not removing the burr you created, regardless of the kind of steel you're sharpening. If you're still having trouble raising a burr, maybe re think the angle you're sharpening at.



This is exactly right. As a matter of fact, this is so right, that I asked myself "How on earth does he know that I can't get burr?". Because just today I got a new microscope, and was able to see what is that I am achieving exactly myself. Here's the result of vigorous rubbing on the Chosera 400 with ~40x magnification(bevel is about 1mm wide).







I seem to be hitting the angle (checked with marker). Chosera 400 is rumored to be an aggressive cutter. So it is either steel breaks off(??) or my hands wobble too much. I am pretty sure though that it can't be that bad with the hands. I might be not able to hold the angle, but maybe to the extent of several degrees or so. Another thing is that I feel something biting a bit on one side with my fingers, but not on the other. Very weird. And heavy pressure eats the stone fast.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 17, 2014)

nerologic said:


> Are there any stores near you that sell used/antique items? You might be able to find old carbon knives there. That's what I started with, and it gave me the confidence to sharpen my nice stuff without worry. I also found some chipped and damaged blades that were good for practicing edge and tip repair. Now I fix knives for friends who ding theirs up without worrying I'll make them worse, hah.



Although I'm pretty sure all I'd find there would be same Chinese stainless, but old and twisted too, but one never knows. Good idea, I'd give it a try next weekend.


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## rami_m (Jun 17, 2014)

cabarete_cub said:


> Another thing is that I feel something biting a bit on one side with my fingers, but not on the other. Very weird.



Umm, that is the definition of a burr. I hope you are not expecting to see a line of metal to the side.


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## Ruso (Jun 17, 2014)

The bottom "line" at your picture (the one 1mm thick) awfully close resemble the burr.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Jun 17, 2014)

cabarete_cub said:


>


I may be very wrong here, but I'm seeing rather polished edge and raw scratches above the edge which makes me think that you don't hit edge at all while sharpening.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 17, 2014)

Ruso said:


> The bottom "line" at your picture (the one 1mm thick) awfully close resemble the burr.



The wide grey stripe is the bevel (which is 1mm thick), and the scratches are on the knife body. That's the way it came. 
The black line on the edge of the bevel is the burr, I guess??


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 17, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I may be very wrong here, but I'm seeing rather polished edge and raw scratches above the edge which makes me think that you don't hit edge at all while sharpening.



The polished one is the bevel. It is ~1 mm. The scratched area is the knife cheek. It came this way. Looks quite polished with naked eye. And I have no idea what the darkish line below the bevel is.
It seems to stay the same no matter what I do.


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## LKH9 (Jun 17, 2014)

When you feel the burr on one of the sides, drag that burred side along your stone with very light pressure, the burrs will break off and you should feel the sharpness of your new edge with your finger tips. Finally, strop on something rough like cardboard, newspaper, wood, leather; to realign the 'teeth', after that you will have a real fine edge.

Some common sharpening instructions/videos are just misguiding, most of them say when you try to sharpen a knife, you "slice the stone as if you're peeling its skin". This is only done for removing burrs, not creating a new edge. I've seen one video by butchers saying this as an instruction, they don't know what they're talking about.


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## Derek Swanson (Jun 17, 2014)

Offer to sharpen your parents' and/or your neighbors' knives, then go to town on them. If you do a good job they will owe you a favor. If you do a lousy job, they will never ask you to sharpen again, even after you have gotten good at it


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## Ruso (Jun 17, 2014)

I am not sure what magnification you have but my take on the picture is this:


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## rami_m (Jun 17, 2014)

Disclaimer: I am somewhat new in this, but been on a workshop on the weekend. What they told is to feel the edge and you can feel one side smooth and the other catches on your finger when you run it down the blade face. I would suggest you do both the sides proceed with the progression, the burr will get smaller then try to deburr/strop and see what it looks like.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 18, 2014)

Ruso said:


> I am not sure what magnification you have but my take on the picture is this:



Magnification is about 40x (measured on the screen). It is bevel (edge) indeed and it's width is about 1 mm.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 18, 2014)

Another observation is that on all 3 knives (yes, there's 3 already, all of them cheap stainless) polishing on 3K Chosera makes 
a *huge* difference in their ability to cut A4 paper. I was able to make the only one of them - the most 'expensive' one - to
cut thin newspaper, though.


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## Lizzardborn (Jun 18, 2014)

cabarete_cub said:


> Another observation is that on all 3 knives (yes, there's 3 already, all of them cheap stainless) polishing on 3K Chosera makes
> a *huge* difference in their ability to cut A4 paper. I was able to make the only one of them - the most 'expensive' one - to
> cut thin newspaper, though.



Had same problem with crappy knives. Try with 50-sh angle included on the cheaper ones. Sometimes a finer fatter edge works better on cheap and soft knives.

Disclaimer - very bad amateur sharpener, so it may be bad advice.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 18, 2014)

Lizzardborn said:


> Had same problem with crappy knives. Try with 50-sh angle included on the cheaper ones. Sometimes a finer fatter edge works better on cheap and soft knives.
> 
> Disclaimer - very bad amateur sharpener, so it may be bad advice.



50-sh seems perfectly fine, given (approximately) the width of the blade near the bevel to be about 1 mm
and the width of the bevel 1 mm.

But edge retention is currently the least of my worries. 
I just want to work out a a (somewhat consistent) way to make a knife sharper.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 18, 2014)

Derek Swanson said:


> Offer to sharpen your parents' and/or your neighbors' knives, then go to town on them. If you do a good job they will owe you a favor. If you do a lousy job, they will never ask you to sharpen again, even after you have gotten good at it



My parents is 100 miles away and one of my two neighbors is a ... mean girl, who will happily crucify me should I do anything wrong with her knives, and another one uses plastic cutlery. 
Jokes aside, this is a great bit of wisdom. Thank you for sharing.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 18, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> When you feel the burr on one of the sides, drag that burred side along your stone with very light pressure, the burrs will break off and you should feel the sharpness of your new edge with your finger tips. Finally, strop on something rough like cardboard, newspaper, wood, leather; to realign the 'teeth', after that you will have a real fine edge.



Great. I mean I applied this method with great result. Well, maybe not exactly "great" yet, but the working plan is in place.


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## LKH9 (Jun 18, 2014)

I never believe in free-handing when sharpening cheap knives(Japanese knife is an exception). I use my own homemade angle guide and I can consistently make a primary and secondary bevel.

If the stainless steel is too soft, you need to use even less pressure when honing on your finishing stone. I have one old, no-brand stainless "petty", was once serrated for cutting steaks, I ground those teeth off and now it's close to razor sharp. Ok, what I found is that when I try to hone it on my finishing stone, the fine edge keeps bending towards the opposite site, very obviously.


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## rick alen (Jun 21, 2014)

Reading the comments here it's interesting that I have several cheap stainless knives, all over 30years old, that get hair-splitting sharp and relatively easy, but of course don't hold an edge unless babied. One is an American made Imperial Very Very Sharp, Emperor Steel from Japan, one that just says Stainless Steel Japan, and Maxam Steel from Japan.

There are some knives you will find in discount stores that are made of the German x50CrMo stuff, they are much like any German knives of that metal and an 8" chef's can be had for typically $5-8. I thin and sharpen them to give away to friends and acquaintances so they can experience a half-decently sharp knife.

I have a vintage Deluxe Personna, these are made of noticeably harder stuff, 440C I would think, and that was probably the stainless of choice in the day for higher end stuff.

I finish all of these knives, including a Randal, with what I believe is a fine translucent Arkansas, and used dry. I find this stone actually does a decent job on VG10 also, using very little pressure.

Rick


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## LKH9 (Jun 22, 2014)

This is how sharp cheap stainless knives can get, glides through A4 paper with only the weight of the $2USD stainless Santoku. The 2 thin knives are actually steak knives for eating on a plate. 

[video=youtube_share;uAKj4w1uIrM]http://youtu.be/uAKj4w1uIrM[/video]


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## gic (Jun 22, 2014)

Impressive demo, How high a grit stone did you go to for that cheap stainless, 1000, 2000?? Roughly what angle did you use, did you do a microbevel.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 22, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> I never believe in free-handing when sharpening cheap knives(Japanese knife is an exception). I use my own homemade angle guide and I can consistently make a primary and secondary bevel.
> 
> If the stainless steel is too soft, you need to use even less pressure when honing on your finishing stone. I have one old, no-brand stainless "petty", was once serrated for cutting steaks, I ground those teeth off and now it's close to razor sharp. Ok, what I found is that when I try to hone it on my finishing stone, the fine edge keeps bending towards the opposite site, very obviously.



That is one of the common issues of cheap stainless. Agree that you can get low quality SS pretty sharp, but does not last. Also your mention of burr removal is correct. BR is an extremely lite touch, you do not want to mess up your bevels by being over aggressive. I have also watched sharpening vids where using their shoddy techniques will cause problems down the line.

I have used the lite draw across the stone for BR many years. For beginners trying this tech. BR will be spotty or flip to the other side. It only takes a little practice & feeling for the burr. As you master this one second lite sweep you can take off most or all of the burr. A couple sweeps on newspaper & you have a clean edge.

Like mentioned Newspaper can detect small imperfections on the edge. Also wt. paper the sharper the edge the less sound it makes.


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## LKH9 (Jun 22, 2014)

gic said:


> Impressive demo, How high a grit stone did you go to for that cheap stainless, 1000, 2000?? Roughly what angle did you use, did you do a microbevel.



I'm actually curious about the grit of that oil stone, my father brought it back from Japan, Osaka ages ago, it's only about 4" in length x 3cm wide. It feels smooth to the hand and the blades get a toothy edge from it. I believe it's made for chisels and other hand tools.





As for the angle, I've no idea, I just use a bamboo chopstick and office clips as the angle guide. Yes, there is a microbevel, it's the trick to getting knives sharp and also durable. 

@keithsaltydog, which is why I'm so pissed with those people who say "you sharpen your knife by slicing the stone", this method is the burr removal process only! Knowing how to feel the burr and how to remove the burr is the secret to getting blades razor sharp. When the burr forms, the edge won't feel sharp, but after you remove the burr on the opposite side, the true edge will finally be revealed. After that, strop to re-align the microscopic teeth.


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## LKH9 (Jun 23, 2014)

I don't know how thick you people's newspaper are, but the newspaper here is pretty thin and soft like paper towel, pretty damn hard to slice through. It's not a good test to use paper this thin, A4 paper is more standard.

[video=youtube_share;P96UGicrBpk]http://youtu.be/P96UGicrBpk[/video]


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## GibCurry (Jun 23, 2014)

Another good source of cheap knives is your local Goodwill and/or other thrift stores.

Just north of Seattle, I've shopped locally and now have 4 Henckels (9" chef, 9" santoku, 7" & 5" paring), a LamsonSharp bread knife and last week found a MAC 8 1/2" slicer. 

The MAC alone is almost $100 new, so these are really nice knives and I paid less than $50 for them. Plus, there's another half dozen that turned out to be junk. Which turned out to be just fine to practice on and throw or be given away.

And, they've all, in varying degrees, have been misused and/or abused so you get some real practical blade repair, re-profiling, burr chasing, edge setting experience.

Good fortune. Good sharpening.

For Now,

Gib


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 23, 2014)

I'm far from Seattle, but absolutely agree with the main idea



GibCurry said:


> And, they've all, in varying degrees, have been misused and/or abused so you get some real practical blade repair, re-profiling, burr chasing, edge setting experience.



There are so many facets to knife sharpening, that one absolutely *has* to practice on inexpensive knives. They can be made sharp, and, most importantly they allow
for some freedom to explore without fear of damaging someone else's good work. Reward is important, especially in the beginning, and I found bringing $1 knife, which I
found lying on the ground on the flea market, to cut paper very rewarding.


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## CompE (Jun 23, 2014)

I think that cheap stainless is great to practice on, but I wouldn't start off that way. Learn to crawl on some cheap, straight carbon first. -my 2 cents.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 23, 2014)

CompE said:


> I think that cheap stainless is great to practice on, but I wouldn't start off that way. Learn to crawl on some cheap, straight carbon first. -my 2 cents.



Which is exactly what I'd do should cheap carbon be available to me. I have ordered (and received already) inexpensive ($30 ship. incl. from ebay) Japanese santoku.
It is so beautiful and delicate I'm afraid to touch it with anything but the finishing stone. I couldn't find any cheap carbon on the flea market, let alone in the cutlery shops.
I thinned all my (3) stainless knives, almost got rid of the ridges resulted from 'section' sharpening. I would be much harder for me to do it to a new knife. As I mentioned before,
I would happily buy a bunch of Old Hickory beaters (can be had for $3-5 apiece), but shipping rates are way too high for some reason.

And, availability and edge retention aside, what would be the biggest difference in sharpening carbon vs. stainless?


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## LKH9 (Jun 23, 2014)

Carbon steel gets sharper on
the same grit of stone than stainless, and it obviously lasts longer, no big difference when it comes to sharpening. Seriously, you don't need special knives to learn sharpening. The sharperner himself makes the difference, not the tools.


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## CompE (Jun 25, 2014)

In my experience, inexpensive soft stainless is simply more difficult to sharpen. It is less forgiving if your angle isn't consistent and small mistakes require more repair. Some cheap, soft stainless steels load some stones very quickly which can be difficult to recognize when you are learning. The burr that is formed is more difficult to remove and if you have a large burr that you are able to remove you are more likely to rip off the edge with the burr. If you can't remove the burr, it will fold over quickly and leave you with a dull rounded-over edge. If you manage to do everything else right, if your angle was low enough to shave the edge will still roll over so quickly that you may not even realize that you got it sharp in the first place and you may not be able to determine the cause (was the angle too low or was the burr never removed?)

Even inexpensive carbon steel, again in my experience, has fewer issues with burr formation and removal. Also in my experience, cheap carbon knives will be somewhat harder than the cheap stainless knives so it will be easier to create a sharp edge that won't roll over as easily.

With experience you learn to keep a more consistent angle, learn to form only a small burr and learn better how to remove it and learn how to put on a good micro-bevel so that softer stainless steels will be less problematic. When you are first learning, there are so many variables that it can be difficult to figure out what you are doing wrong, or if you are doing anything wrong at all.

This is all just my experience.


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## Benuser (Jun 25, 2014)

Great post.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 25, 2014)

CompE said:


> This is all just my experience.



And I appreciate very much you sharing it. Looks like experience is what we have to guide us. 

I have several carbon knives on their way. Can't wait. Although, truth be told, while I understand
clear superiority of carbons in general, and - thanks to many forum members who shared their insight -
for self-teaching purposes in particular, I have to say that I'm far from being frustrated from sharpening
stainless. Actually I'm afraid I'm progressing a bit too fast. Well, that probably due to my beautiful
Choseras. And maybe to the fact that I'm perfectly cool with the fact that knives are not sharp,
but just sharper.


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## Derek Swanson (Jun 25, 2014)

cabarete_cub said:


> Well, that probably due to my beautiful
> Choseras.



Chosera stones are being discontinued so if you love them better stock up!


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## LKH9 (Jun 25, 2014)

@TS, you'd better invest in something like this then. It sounds like angle is your main problem, so this is what you need. Get 1 item and you can permanently turn every single knives into a razor. Stop trying to get carbon knives just for the purpose of learning, instead invest in a simple sharpening system.

https://www.razoredgesystems.com/guides/guides/razor-edge-guide-for-blades-over-3-1-2
Seriously, I want to try that Razor Edge finishing stone, just worrying about the shipping cost.

I myself started off with cheap stainless knives and I'm doing great now, because that's what all people me around use. I just have to learn it.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 26, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> @TS, you'd better invest in something like this then. It sounds like angle is your main problem, so this is what you need. Get 1 item and you can permanently turn every single knives into a razor. Stop trying to get carbon knives just for the purpose of learning, instead invest in a simple sharpening system.
> 
> https://www.razoredgesystems.com/guides/guides/razor-edge-guide-for-blades-over-3-1-2
> Seriously, I want to try that Razor Edge finishing stone, just worrying about the shipping cost.
> ...



Of course angle is my main problem, but that's exactly what makes the whole process so interesting for me.
Can't stop getting carbon knives - they're already in transit. Besides learning *is* the purpose. It is not like
I have a long line of customers in front of my door. More like a hobby which I hope I'd be able to put to
a good use once I'm more or less confident and know what I'm doing.


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## cabarete_cub (Jun 26, 2014)

Derek Swanson said:


> Chosera stones are being discontinued so if you love them better stock up!



I'm sure Naniwa will come up with something else instead. (and, hopefully, less expensive too). 
And, of course, I love them. If anything, they are my first stones ever!


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## LKH9 (Jun 26, 2014)

Well, let us know how well your new carbon knives sharpen when you obtain them. Keep us updated. Post videos of the results if possible.


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## Benuser (Jun 26, 2014)

Derek Swanson said:


> Chosera stones are being discontinued so if you love them better stock up!


Really?


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## Derek Swanson (Jun 26, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Really?



Yes, same with the Super stones. However they seem confident the new stones replacing them will be better (ie increased powder content and more wear-resistant)


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## Ruso (Jun 26, 2014)

> Yes, same with the Super stones. However they seem confident the new stones replacing them will be better (ie increased powder content and more wear-resistant)


Interesting info. Do you have any source of this?


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## Derek Swanson (Jun 26, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Interesting info. Do you have any source of this?



Horse's mouth: Naniwa's international sales manager informed me


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## mhpr262 (Jun 26, 2014)

Anybody who has problems puttin a sharp edge on stainless steel should try stropping their knives with an abrasive compund. 

I recently bought a very cheap waxlike polishing paste (3,90), applied it to a strip of balsa wood by melting it on with a heat gun and use it for stropping. It makes a huge difference, I can get my Wüsthofs and my F. Dicks shaving sharp without effort. It also makes it very easy to touch up the edge without the hassle of breaking out your set of stones and watering and drying them and ...

I put ony decent edge with a stone first, try to get rid of the burr by flipping the knife a few times, then pull the edge through some medium hard wood then strop it. Then pull it through the wood one last time.


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## Lizzardborn (Jun 26, 2014)

mhpr262 said:


> I recently bought a very cheap waxlike polishing paste (3,90), applied it to a strip of balsa wood by melting it on with a heat gun and use it for stropping.



For what was the polishing paste? Metal, automobile paint?


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## LKH9 (Jun 26, 2014)

mhpr262 said:


> Anybody who has problems puttin a sharp edge on stainless steel should try stropping their knives with an abrasive compund.
> 
> I recently bought a very cheap waxlike polishing paste (3,90), applied it to a strip of balsa wood by melting it on with a heat gun and use it for stropping. It makes a huge difference, I can get my Wüsthofs and my F. Dicks shaving sharp without effort. It also makes it very easy to touch up the edge without the hassle of breaking out your set of stones and watering and drying them and ...
> 
> I put ony decent edge with a stone first, try to get rid of the burr by flipping the knife a few times, then pull the edge through some medium hard wood then strop it. Then pull it through the wood one last time.



I've heard about this too, but you must use an abrasive made for STEEL. Chromium oxide for example, not all polishing paste works, especially the cheap brass polish.

I strop my stainless blades on hard cardboard, used dry and they still get a shaving edge from it. This final step is compulsory if you want a perfect edge. But you must grind a good edge on the first hand.


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## Lizzardborn (Jun 29, 2014)

I see the atoma 140 recommended - is it safe to use on soft steel? I remember reading about diamonds being plucked away when abrading soft steel on diamond plates.


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## mhpr262 (Jul 1, 2014)

Lizzardborn said:


> For what was the polishing paste? Metal, automobile paint?



It doesn't say on the product, but it works. (Btw I have just looked closely on the sticker on the wrapping and it DOES say it is for sharpening, among other things)

http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00149DHQU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## LKH9 (Jul 1, 2014)

It's green, I believe it's chromium oxide.


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## cabarete_cub (Jul 3, 2014)

And after experimenting some I wonder why the question of inexpensive knife to learn sharpening with turned into SS vs Carbon.
SS is less machinable, or at least Wikipedia and most of the people here think so. But the geometry of the blade seems to be
even more important. Most of cheap SS blades have fairly straightforward geometry, and the one learning shouldn't be worried
about ruining it, because for the most it is awful and has to be thinned anyway. The bevel, which is the part of concern is always
noticeable though. There's no microbevels, concave edges, (thanks, riba! not that I'm regretting buying an Opinel, but now I 
understand that smiley) or other complexities. Not all of them. Mora turned out wonderful to sharpen (thank you, lizzardborn),
but carbons can be peculiar, while cheap SS probably won't.


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## Benuser (Jul 4, 2014)

General statements about geometry related to the steel choice make no sense IMHO. You may find all kinds of grindings and all kind of edges with all kinds of steel. And apparently more elaborate grindings like the convex ones aren't necessary harder to sharpen. Just put a very small conventional bevel on your convex Opinel and you will be fine -- within a few minutes.


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## LKH9 (Jul 4, 2014)

So, can your new knives glide through paper yet?


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## cabarete_cub (Jul 4, 2014)

Opinel doesn't (little stubborn SOB), Moras do. Cheap SS ones to some extent. One slightly more expensive (~$20) SS does. Inexpensive ($30) Japanese made Santoku does it best.
None of them glide the way I want yet, but it's been not that long ago I got my stones, and I like the challenge.


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## cabarete_cub (Jul 4, 2014)

I know I sort of deviated from my point in the end of my comment. Point being that some geometries are more accommodating for novice sharpener than the others.


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## Ruso (Jul 4, 2014)

cabarete_cub said:


> I know I sort of deviated from my point in the end of my comment. Point being that some geometries are more accommodating for novice sharpener than the others.



I am not too sure if I follow you.... Perhaps you mean profile, then I do concur.


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## cabarete_cub (Jul 4, 2014)

This (part in green) is what called profile?







Then yes, but the curvature of the blade (road?) adds to the complexity too, because if the blade is curved 
and the bevel is narrow there's very little surface to provide enough tactile response, so I have to restore to
"rolling" the blade in order to get some feedback from the stone and make sure the road doesn't have ridges.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 4, 2014)

cabarete_cub said:


> This (part in green) is what called profile?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, that is the knife's _geometry_ - the term is often misused, especially on other forums.

Profile, as used in this forum, is when you look at the knife from the side, like this:


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## cabarete_cub (Jul 4, 2014)

Thank you for the explanation. What a beautiful knife that ^ is, btw.


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