# Unicorns come and go



## danemonji (Nov 30, 2019)

Hello

I have a theory that unicorn knives such as Kato (shigefusa also following) are a dying breed and stay desirable while
1. The maker is alive and well
2. While there are enough knives being sold on the market to keep the maker popular.
3. Prices stay fair and true to quality.

From what i see the Kato hype seems to slowly die off since more and more kkf members are selling their Kato collections and turning to alternatives which are more easy to find and on par with quality.
I think that the fact that just a couple of vendors have monopoly on his work and control the price and sales volume is slowly killing his good name and popularity in the knife community.
Just compare reviews and articles from 2015, 2016 with the ones from 2018 and 2019 on this forum and you will see same people going from hype to dissapointment from wtb kato to wts kato.


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

If anyone wants to offload their unwanted, depreciating Kato's I'm here..... cash waiting.


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## Matus (Nov 30, 2019)

Yes, there are waves of hype or popularity and at the end of the day (wave) the knife is being appreciated either by those who actually enjoy using it, or by collectors. Those who bought one either out of curiosity, or because the knife was ‘in’ (or had flipping potential) usually sell their and move to the next one. Nothing too surprising about that.

Now since Kato was mentioned as an example - I do think that it is a great knife and I would wish it would - after being hyped , kept as drawer queen and flipped - find its way to those who will enjoy using it.


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Oh and I promise to use them......


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## DitmasPork (Nov 30, 2019)

danemonji said:


> Hello
> 
> I have a theory that unicorn knives such as Kato (shigefusa also following) are a dying breed and stay desirable while
> 1. The maker is alive and well
> ...



Buyers are just as responsible as vendors for inflated prices on coveted knives. Have you ever paid well beyond "fair price" for a Kato or Shig—like twice original retail price?

Personally, if I had the money, I wouldn't be bothered paying a high price for something I really wanted.


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## F-Flash (Nov 30, 2019)

I had kato kikuryu gyuto 240mm, paid 1052€ for it. Sold for same, since I preferred my toyama in use.
(yeah stubid me, could have got 5* that amount now).

But imo that was fair price for it. Anything more is collectors premium. 

There are quite a few unicorns that can be sold for more in second hand market than what it cost buying new:

-kato 
-shigefusa
-ashi honyaki 
-tatsuo
-billipp

All respect to collectors, but I prefer patina


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Buyers are just as responsible as vendors for inflated prices on coveted knives. Have you ever paid well beyond "fair price" for a Kato or Shig—like twice original retail price?
> 
> Personally, if I had the money, I wouldn't be bothered paying a high price for something I really wanted.


Not justKato and Shig. Have you seen what Ashi Hamono honyaki are going for recently. $2900 for a 210 *gulp*


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

Question, is it a unicorn if it’s available in BST virtually any day of the week?
I feel like I can’t view BST without tripping over several Kato for sale threads.


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## DitmasPork (Nov 30, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not justKato and Shig. Have you seen what Ashi Hamono honyaki are going for recently. $2900 for a 210 *gulp*



Yup, saw that. I've nothing against seeing prices soar for certain knives—though it puts them out of reach for many, it certainly makes a lot of current owners very happy. 

Most of my knives have depreciated in value, but two of them are worth three times what I paid—so it balances out.


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## DitmasPork (Nov 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Question, is it a unicorn if it’s available in BST virtually any day of the week?
> I feel like a can’t view BST without tripping over several Kato for sale threads.



It's been raining Katos lately—but they still sell—unicorn to those who don't have it and really must have it. I remember when KS were a hot ticket—wished I sold mine then.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

I dunno, you might be surprised. Some of them sit for a while in BST.


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## lemeneid (Nov 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I dunno, you might be surprised. Some of them sit for a while in BST.


The only ones still on BST are “used” ones and that other one that was tipped. The BNIB ones sell really quickly.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

I don’t consider 7 days quickly.


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I don’t consider 7 days quickly.


Wish they sat that long on JNS. Blink and you miss them. Kato is still a hot ticket.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

Seems like most don’t don’t make it to the website judging from what maxim posts on IG.


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## DitmasPork (Nov 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Seems like most don’t don’t make it to the website judging from what maxim posts on IG.


Hey, didn't you have like three Katos at one point?


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

Yeah, why?


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## lemeneid (Nov 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I don’t consider 7 days quickly.


Did you see Geoff’s Ku? That went in record time, granted that was really good value IMO.


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Hey, didn't you have like three Katos at one point?


Obviously a connoisseur


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## alterwisser (Nov 30, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Buyers are just as responsible as vendors for inflated prices on coveted knives. Have you ever paid well beyond "fair price" for a Kato or Shig—like twice original retail price?
> 
> Personally, if I had the money, I wouldn't be bothered paying a high price for something I really wanted.




I’d argue that buyers are more responsible... without a buyer there’s no market = price drops


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Did you see Geoff’s Ku? That went in record time, granted that was really good value IMO.


I didn’t see that one.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Obviously a connoisseur


I’m pretty transparent about what I’ve used and like.


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## ma_sha1 (Nov 30, 2019)

I am new here, for what it’s worth, I see the same thing that OP saw. As a noob, I am curious about the unicorns, so I want to try one. but the mystic of workhorse grind has been deciphered, I bought the poor man’s Workhorse instead, a 210 Mazaki weight in at hefty 208g, specs 6mm/5mm/2.7mm/1mm is a carbon copy of Kato geometry with slightly thinner tip. Now my curiosity on workhorse performance is satisfied, i no longer has the urge, I can move on without Kato.

The BNIB knives are collectors, & many “collectors” are there because the appreciation history, thus, it’s easily justified as investment. As soon as these trend is gone, the investing type of collectors will be gone too, & may even trigger a crash, leaving behind some true collectors, but much smaller group, they won’t be able sustain the market without investors.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

To address the OP, it’s hard for me to understand the mind of a collector. Maybe more guys are letting them go, but also as it’s already been pointed out there’s still deep pockets that will gooble up whatever falls on BST. 
It’s very likely a lot of non collectors are losing interest.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Hey, didn't you have like three Katos at one point?


Help me help you here. As it stands this comment hardly makes sense.


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## lemeneid (Nov 30, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> I am new here, for what it’s worth, I see the same thing that OP saw. As a noob, I am curious about the unicorns, so I want to try one. but the mystic of workhorse grind has been deciphered, I bought the poor man’s Workhorse instead, a 210 Mazaki weight in at hefty 208g, specs 6mm/5mm/2.7mm/1mm is a carbon copy of Kato geometry with slightly thinner tip. Now my curiosity on workhorse performance is satisfied, i no longer has the urge, I can move on without Kato.
> 
> The BNIB knives are collectors, & many “collectors” are there because the appreciation history, thus, it’s easily justified as investment. As soon as these trend is gone, the investing type of collectors will be gone too, & may even trigger a crash, leaving behind some true collectors, but much smaller group, they won’t be able sustain the market without investors.


Sure, keep thinking Mazaki=Kato


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## CiderBear (Nov 30, 2019)

I'm too late in the game, so sadly it looks like I won't ever be able to try out a Kato :/


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> I'm too late in the game, so sadly it looks like I won't ever be able to try out a Kato :/


Don’t worry I plan on cranking some out soon with the 3D printer I’m getting for Christmas.


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## aboynamedsuita (Nov 30, 2019)

danemonji said:


> Hello
> 
> I have a theory that unicorn knives such as Kato (shigefusa also following) are a dying breed and stay desirable while
> 1. The maker is alive and well
> ...



Didn’t you start a thread awhile ago about “collectable knives” and list both kato and shig amongst your top 3? Maybe your theory is just self reflection. Hattori KD has had unicorn status for years and is still coveted, even the recent batch jck had sold almost instantly.


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## DitmasPork (Nov 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Help me help you here. As it stands this comment hardly makes sense.


Sorry if sounded off topic comment. Was just thinking about how knives fall in and out of popularity, with prices following demand—and what those three Katos are worth today.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Sorry if sounded off topic comment. Was just thinking about how knives fall in and out of popularity, with prices following demand—and what those three Katos are worth today.


That’s a very good point.
To me they weren’t worth the $375-420 I sold them for, which is why I sold them.


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## valgard (Nov 30, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> I am new here, for what it’s worth, I see the same thing that OP saw. As a noob, I am curious about the unicorns, so I want to try one. but the mystic of workhorse grind has been deciphered, I bought the poor man’s Workhorse instead, a 210 Mazaki weight in at hefty 208g, specs 6mm/5mm/2.7mm/1mm is a carbon copy of Kato geometry with slightly thinner tip. Now my curiosity on workhorse performance is satisfied, i no longer has the urge, I can move on without Kato.
> 
> The BNIB knives are collectors, & many “collectors” are there because the appreciation history, thus, it’s easily justified as investment. As soon as these trend is gone, the investing type of collectors will be gone too, & may even trigger a crash, leaving behind some true collectors, but much smaller group, they won’t be able sustain the market without investors.


Sorry but Mazaki is by no means a carbon copy of a Kato. I've used both (a lot more Katos than Mazaki, but have used two Mazaki from different batches) and I strongly disagree with that statement .


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## valgard (Nov 30, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Sure, keep thinking Mazaki=Kato


This [emoji23]


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

valgard said:


> Sorry but Mazaki is by no means a carbon copy of a Kato. I've used both (a lot more Katos than Mazaki, but have used two Mazaki from different batches) and I strongly disagree with that statement .


+3 Not even in the same ballpark


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

They aren’t a copy of each other at all. Mazaki has a lot of inconsistency, and there are duds(I’ve held one before)
But as far as actual cutting goes Mazaki is much better IMO.
The price tag alone indicates the difference. Prestigious maker, more labor intensive, probably more expensive process...Its not up for debate which knife is nicer.


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## ma_sha1 (Nov 30, 2019)

I should have made it clear, I am not saying Mazaki is at Kato level or near Kato level al all. 

It’s only the geometry dimensions that Mazaki appears to have copied Kato, is that not true?


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> I should have made it clear, I am not saying Mazaki is at Kato level or near Kato level al all.
> 
> It’s only the geometry dimensions that Mazaki appears to have copied Kato, is that not true?


There are many different variations for Kato it's hard to generalize.


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> But as far as actual cutting goes Mazaki is much better IMO.


I would debate that too. A lot depends on the grind. Mine are extremely thin behind the edge and get a really toothy edge. I would put the cutting prowess of my Kato WH just behind my TF Denka. Stiction is more of an issue though compared to the TF.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I would debate that too. A lot depends on the grind. Mine are extremely thin behind the edge and get a really toothy edge. I would put the cutting prowess of my Kato WH just behind my TF Denka. Stiction is more of an issue though compared to the TF.


I’ve ONLY owned 3 Katos and 3 Mazakis. I can only speak of the stuff I’ve used. All the 3 Maz were preferred to any of the Katos when cutting food. Katos are prettier in person though.


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## Barmoley (Nov 30, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> I should have made it clear, I am not saying Mazaki is at Kato level or near Kato level al all.
> 
> It’s only the geometry dimensions that Mazaki appears to have copied Kato, is that not true?


It is not true. You can't look at measurements along the spine and assume that the knives are the same. Even if both knives were flat ground there could be differences between the measure points, but these are not flat ground.


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## Briochy (Nov 30, 2019)

Does any one want to compare their unicorn with other excellent ‘normal’ knives. Are there any normal knives out there that cut ‘better’ than unicorns. I’m kinda curious about their sheer performance.


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## danemonji (Nov 30, 2019)

I see a lot of comments about Kato or Shig prices being too much but can anyone explain how a Billip knife just sold for 2200 and looking at the cluncky design and chunky handle and overall construction i found that really hard to understand. And he is neither swordsmith in Japan or 50 years of experience.


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## madelinez (Nov 30, 2019)

I can't comment on Billip as I've never used one, but the f&f that goes into some of the Japanese unicorns isn't close to what some of the western premium makers do. Also the mysticism of Japanese swordmakers is nice and all, but super precise modern equipment for heat treatments are probably more consistent. I'm not saying they're bad knives, but less effort goes into them in my opinion.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

danemonji said:


> I see a lot of comments about Kato or Shig prices being too much but can anyone explain how a Billip knife just sold for 2200 and looking at the cluncky design and chunky handle and overall construction i found that really hard to understand. And he is neither swordsmith in Japan or 50 years of experience.


I dunno. Every person that’s used one swears they’re amazing. I’m with you though, they’re definitely not for me.


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## ma_sha1 (Nov 30, 2019)

There’s got to be a fascinating story about Billip...


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

Briochy said:


> Does any one want to compare their unicorn with other excellent ‘normal’ knives. Are there any normal knives out there that cut ‘better’ than unicorns. I’m kinda curious about their sheer performance.


Unicorns and cutting ability are often mutually exclusive. There’s not much that can happen past the $450-500 price tag that improves the area of cutting ability.


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## lemeneid (Nov 30, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> There are many different variations for Kato it's hard to generalize.


Yup, every vendor out there has a different spec for their Kato or Mazaki.


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## danemonji (Nov 30, 2019)

madelinez said:


> I can't comment on Billip as I've never used one, but the f&f that goes into some of the Japanese unicorns isn't close to what some of the western premium makers do. Also the mysticism of Japanese swordmakers is nice and all, but super precise modern equipment for heat treatments are probably more consistent. I'm not saying they're bad knives, but less effort goes into them in my opinion.


Good that you brought the modern equipment topic....for me that is not smithing. Sorry but if you cut some steel grind it and cook it in a forge that looks like a microwave oven and just cool it in some oil. That is something that anyone can do with very little knowledge but good tools.
Trying to compare that with a skill that takes a lifetime to master is like comparing a printer to a renaissance painter. They both produce the same image yet which one would you buy?


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## danemonji (Nov 30, 2019)

Oh and just check that billip guy's website to see the manufacturing process...he has a microwave oven too. I think the Takefu village puts more detail and forging in their work than this yet their knives sell for 300$ and not 2200


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## madelinez (Nov 30, 2019)

The one that doesn't have giant clumps of carbides because they eye-balled the heat-treat of course....
Using your logic you should only be using knives made from pure iron that are annealed over charcoals, the performance will be terrible but hey they'll be 'renaissance'.


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## danemonji (Nov 30, 2019)

Most of the users here have hand forged knives over charcoals (since they are made in Japan) and don't complain about the heat treat...on the contrarry we love it.
What we pay extra is the art of doing it. You want to say that someone like Tsukasa Hinoura who is eyeballing the heat treat is no good? Or TF who has one of the coolest heat treats. Yet they all forge their blades and have a process that takes 20 years to master as an apprentice and the 30 more as a smith. That's what i am paying not the fancy tools. I pay the painter not the printer...just like art


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## valgard (Nov 30, 2019)

Briochy said:


> Does any one want to compare their unicorn with other excellent ‘normal’ knives. Are there any normal knives out there that cut ‘better’ than unicorns. I’m kinda curious about their sheer performance.


For sure you can reach peak performance at much lower price points.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

danemonji said:


> Most of the users here have hand forged knives over charcoals (since they are made in Japan) and don't complain about the heat treat...on the contrarry we love it.
> What we pay extra is the art of doing it. You want to say that someone like Tsukasa Hinoura who is eyeballing the heat treat is no good? Or TF who has one of the coolest heat treats. Yet they all forge their blades and have a process that takes 20 years to master as an apprentice and the 30 more as a smith. That's what i am paying not the fancy tools. I pay the painter not the printer...just like art


What do you mean by “most of the users here”?


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

@danemonji are shigs, TF, and Katos as highly coveted within Japan as elsewhere?


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Briochy said:


> Does any one want to compare their unicorn with other excellent ‘normal’ knives. Are there any normal knives out there that cut ‘better’ than unicorns. I’m kinda curious about their sheer performance.


I don't consider TF a unicorn brand. They are readily available from multiple vendors and direct. Its finding 'good' ones that makes them challenging. However I'm getting the distinct impression recently that TF is upping its game and 'fixing' the grind issues that have put off many potential owners. Now if only they can do something about the crappy F&F Western knives.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

Didn’t someone mention once TF will do soft iron maboroshi? Just cost extra as a custom project?


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## danemonji (Nov 30, 2019)

So coming back to unicorns...
Is Tsukasa river jump worth 2500$ for 240 gyuto?
Is Kato wh 240 worth 1400$
Is Billip worth the 2200$
Is TF denka 240 worth the 1000$
Is the ashi honyiaki worth the 4000$
Is Tensu 210 worth the 1650$
Is Bloodroot worth 1000+$
...and the list is big
We all expect to pay 300$ or 400$ most because some of us see knives as tools as many are cooks by trade. But knives have started to become more than just tools. They are the modern society's swords equivalent.


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## nakneker (Nov 30, 2019)

My Kato standard 240 is my favorite gyuto to use, still remember the first I used it. 

I had a Kato 240 dammy, KU and standard at one time but bailed, just kept the standard. I do have a 300 Yanagiba and would buy a suji if I ever get the chance.


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## danemonji (Nov 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> @danemonji are shigs, TF, and Katos as highly coveted within Japan as elsewhere?


You should have a look on japanese auction sites. You would be amazed. Kato standard just sold for 1500$ much more than BST. Shig is same if not more expensive.
Not many people know about KKF and BST and they are high in demand in Japan. I don' t think they collect them though as i see a lot of rusty second hand nakiri selling for 600 to 800$


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## Itsjun (Nov 30, 2019)

Hiromoto honyaki is becoming unicorn.
As well as Shiraki Kenichi works as he is pretty stagnant with production now.


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## labor of love (Nov 30, 2019)

I’ve been given the impression in the past, sometimes by vendors that the old way of forging is dying off in Japan. 
I could see something like the one man model of Kato not really being viable moving forward but I really have no idea.
Is this something that is real? Are traditional methods prized because the makers are becoming scarce and retiring or not so much? I would figure with high demand more guys would gravitate towards the craftsman aspect.


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## danemonji (Nov 30, 2019)

From what i see the traditional smithing in Japan is there to stay. It's part of their national heritage. The smiths are highly appreciated by their society and the japanese love their traditional knives. It's in their DNA and history.


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## Michi (Nov 30, 2019)

Once you cross the $300 threshold, there is essentially no more additional performance to be gained. Only prestige, vanity, and artistry. Call it what you like


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## madelinez (Nov 30, 2019)

I'd disagree although it's rapidly diminishing returns. It takes a lot of time to forge/grind something very thin behind the edge with reasonable convexity for food release, I don't know any $300 knives that do it. From what I've seen of the Kato workhorse grind, it has it. Shigs have something similar with a bit of a hollow behind the edge. Almost all of the expensive western makers do s-grinds or convex grinds. It's very time consuming.


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## lemeneid (Nov 30, 2019)

danemonji said:


> So coming back to unicorns...
> Is Tsukasa river jump worth 2500$ for 240 gyuto?
> Is Kato wh 240 worth 1400$
> Is Billip worth the 2200$
> ...


The TF Denka is worth the money I paid for the performance.


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## Barmoley (Nov 30, 2019)

I agree with labor, I think the cutoff in max performance is closer to $450-$500 at this time. Not to say that there aren't some $300 that perform great, but on average if you want close to max performance it is somewhere around $500. Unicorns are knives that are desirable for whatever reason, performance could be one of them but definately not the driving force for their status.

Speaking of performance, if you wanted max performance you would want modern steels and modern equipment, to claim otherwise is just naive. Same as saying that anyone can produce a top performing knife just because they have the equipment. That's just silly. 

Oh and the Billipp is clearly worth it to someone since it was bought and rather quickly. None of the super expensive knives are expensive because of the performance.


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## Barclid (Dec 1, 2019)

danemonji said:


> You should have a look on japanese auction sites. You would be amazed. Kato standard just sold for 1500$ much more than BST. Shig is same if not more expensive.
> Not many people know about KKF and BST and they are high in demand in Japan. I don' t think they collect them though as i see a lot of rusty second hand nakiri selling for 600 to 800$



The big bidders on most of those are using proxies from outside of Japan.


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## DitmasPork (Dec 1, 2019)

danemonji said:


> So coming back to unicorns...
> Is Tsukasa river jump worth 2500$ for 240 gyuto?
> Is Kato wh 240 worth 1400$
> Is Billip worth the 2200$
> ...



Who do you mean by “we all”? You’re making some major assumptions. Some cooks find their knife comfort zone in the sub-$150 range, others 1k plus. 

Regarding the prices you’ve mentioned—yes, those knives are worth that much to the kkf members that have bought knives at those prices on BST, many of them pro cooks using them as the tools they’re designed to be.


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## Michi (Dec 1, 2019)

madelinez said:


> I'd disagree although it's rapidly diminishing returns. It takes a lot of time to forge/grind something very thin behind the edge with reasonable convexity for food release, I don't know any $300 knives that do it.


Yes, fair enough. The $300 is something I picked out of hat. It depends on what standards I set, too. Something that is an improvement to me may not even be noticeable to someone else. But, somewhere around $300, the gain in performance starts decreasing exponentially with every additional dollar.


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## jaknil (Dec 1, 2019)

Briochy said:


> Does any one want to compare their unicorn with other excellent ‘normal’ knives. Are there any normal knives out there that cut ‘better’ than unicorns. I’m kinda curious about their sheer performance.


IMHO:
https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-gyuto-240mm/

I do have quite a few kniwes in the +1000 USD category, but this one is still one of my most prefeered cutters.
It´s not in stock right now, but it often is. 
It is so good, that I had to buy an extra in the same size. Jut to see if my first one was representing the standard or a knife that came out extraordinarily good. The second one was as good as the first.


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## Itsjun (Dec 1, 2019)

I think honyaki are worth every single thousand you spend on it.
They are forged in the same method as katanas, supply is low.
The process is also forging it is also another factor as well as there's a higher chance for failure.

If I had the money I would spend on a ashi honyaki.
The craftsmanship and hamon is incredible


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## Michi (Dec 1, 2019)

Itsjun said:


> If I had the money I would spend on a ashi honyaki.
> The craftsmanship and hamon is incredible


They are beautiful knives, no doubt. What's stopping me is that they are white #2. What is such a knife going to look like after a year of daily use? How much of the Hamon and the mirror finish will still be present then? (That's a genuine question; I have never owned a honyaki.)


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## madelinez (Dec 1, 2019)

They are very high maintenance but removing the patina without completely destroying the mirror finish isn't a huge task. I prefer clad knives, easier to thin and maintain but I appreciate the work in a forged honyaki.


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## danemonji (Dec 1, 2019)

Speaking of removing patina or restoring mirror finish i always wonder why some prefer finger stones and not use polishing compound and a buffer as that will get faster results.
For damascus to be honest i have no ideea how to restore that pattern once you thin it as some smiths use ferric chloride to etch it.
Ku or kasumi are less of a maintenance problem and there are some nice guides here on kkf about restoring kasumi finish.


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## Itsjun (Dec 1, 2019)

Michi said:


> They are beautiful knives, no doubt. What's stopping me is that they are white #2. What is such a knife going to look like after a year of daily use? How much of the Hamon and the mirror finish will still be present then? (That's a genuine question; I have never owned a honyaki.)



There's specific Japanese natural stones to etch out the hamon like uchigumori. There's also other stones for Damascus pattern.


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## Michi (Dec 1, 2019)

Itsjun said:


> There's specific Japanese natural stones to etch out the hamon like uchigumori. There's also other stones for Damascus pattern.


Thanks for that!

It still sounds like keeping a honyaki in good shape requires a lot of effort. To the point where I'm thinking I wouldn't want to use one. I _do_ like looking at them though


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## ynot1985 (Dec 1, 2019)

danemonji said:


> You should have a look on japanese auction sites. You would be amazed. Kato standard just sold for 1500$ much more than BST. Shig is same if not more expensive.
> Not many people know about KKF and BST and they are high in demand in Japan. I don' t think they collect them though as i see a lot of rusty second hand nakiri selling for 600 to 800$



Most of the buyers off the auction houses aren’t japanese.

In relations to how well they are regardes in Japan. Shigefusa kitchen knives are well know locally and kato is more known for his custom knives. No idea about TF


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## thebradleycrew (Dec 1, 2019)

I wanted to say something about Billipp knives. I've owned one, as well as five different Kato's, several Shigs, two different TF Denkas, among other high end customs from Western makers. The Billipp is indeed (to me) worth the price of admission relative to the others and their current street values. The one I had was both rustic and contemporary, precise, balanced, and the 52100 steel was perfectly heat treated and felt amazing on all types of stones. I sold mine because the geometry wasn't quite what I wanted, but I'd buy one that fit my desires if I found one (I know of one or two that exist). I love my Kato WH that I'll keep for a long time if not forever, but have sold all my Shigs as I just can't get behind the grind or geometry. I guess I'm saying that these things are immensely personal, as I'd expect preferences to be, and at least for me it rules out why I might like some knives over others.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 1, 2019)

thebradleycrew said:


> I love my Kato WH that I'll keep for a long time if not forever, but have sold all my Shigs as I just can't get behind the grind or geometry.


Me too. My cutting style just gels so well with the Kato WH. Its the knife I'm currently using 90% of the time. I've wanted to try a Shig but something keeps holding me back. I think it's the choil shot.... too thick behind the edge.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 1, 2019)

I haven’t tried either, it’s time to get on board


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## lemeneid (Dec 2, 2019)

Itsjun said:


> I think honyaki are worth every single thousand you spend on it.
> They are forged in the same method as katanas, supply is low.


LOL


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Dec 2, 2019)

Itsjun said:


> I think honyaki are worth every single thousand you spend on it.
> They are forged in the same method as katanas, supply is low.
> The process is also forging it is also another factor as well as there's a higher chance for failure.
> 
> ...


Just curious...if you like katanas, why don’t you collect katanas instead?


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 2, 2019)

Katanas are $10000 & up, vs chef knives $100 & up, that would exclude most people.


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## captaincaed (Dec 2, 2019)

Michi said:


> Thanks for that!
> 
> It still sounds like keeping a honyaki in good shape requires a lot of effort. To the point where I'm thinking I wouldn't want to use one. I _do_ like looking at them though


One for the kitchen one for the display case. Mine function much better as knives with a patina.

I agree with diminishing performance returns. But diminishing, not zero. I know when I'm holding my top performers and they weren't cheap. The last 5-10% is what defines the peak in any setting. That said, I'm not chasing unicorns for a while.


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## Barmoley (Dec 2, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> Katanas are $10000 & up, vs chef knives $100 & up, that would exclude most people.


Can we please stop with katana comparisons. Kitchen knives and katana have very little in common except that both are made of steel and cut things. The design purposes are so different that to draw any comparisons is just ridiculous.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 2, 2019)

Plus a monosteel honyaki is nothing like a katana, which is san mai


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## Barmoley (Dec 2, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Plus a monosteel honyaki is nothing like a katana, which is san mai


Not all katana are San Mai.


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## captaincaed (Dec 2, 2019)

No katanas


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## bkultra (Dec 2, 2019)

WTS Masamoto katana 10k... Finally I can buy that BAE UTCX (Thermal Clip on) I've been eyeing.


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## Marek07 (Dec 2, 2019)

Some unicorns just go... never to return.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 2, 2019)

OMG, LMAO


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## Echotraveler (Dec 2, 2019)

wow this knifes fetch some high prices! someday! for now i only dream of this so called unicorns. I wonder how much of a difference one could feel in comparison to other professional grade knifes in the $150-$300 range. 
Currently the Takamura HSPS Pro Gyuto is my dream, and im looking for any excuse to splurge, as im getting quite used to working in a professional kitchen with the Takamura Migaki R2 Gyuto, which is the cheaper version...but by far my most expensive, and most sharp knife ever!


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## labor of love (Dec 2, 2019)

Yeah the taka hsps is pretty bad ass. You won’t be disappointed.


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## panda (Dec 2, 2019)

i still long for a masamoto HS gyuto


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## Gregmega (Dec 2, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Not all katana are San Mai.



True, all my katana that are honyaki are waaaaayy better cutters than my san mai katana. Just sayin.


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## panda (Dec 2, 2019)

speaking of katana, i would love to try a gyuto with a proper grind made out of tamahagane san mai..


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## Barmoley (Dec 2, 2019)

I tried I really did. Here are some katana constructions of a later period of katana evolution.







Ofcourse earlier katana were longer and had more belly no flat spot at all since they were mostly used off a horse. Later they became shorter and straighter. Proper katana needs to be fitted to the user otherwise you will cut yourself to pieces while taking it out or stub yourself when putting it back into its Saya, if it is too long you won't be able to take it out of the saya quickly.


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## lemeneid (Dec 2, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> Katanas are $10000 & up, vs chef knives $100 & up, that would exclude most people.


I wish people would stop peddling this lie though. There are nice katanas to be had for $3000 or so, made 200-300 years ago, with tamahagane and decently polished. of course if you're looking for a high-end modern art piece by Yoshimitsu, a million will get you probably half the tang and a wait list of over 15 years by my reckoning now.

there are also katanas made of blue, white, etc, honyaki, san-mai, kobuse, awase, etc... so do your research.

also, just my opinion, whoever bought that Kato tamahagane takohiki, thank you for being the biggest sucker on earth.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 3, 2019)

Soshu kitae or go home


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## Codered (Dec 3, 2019)

From what i understand, tamahagane is basically smelted steel like they did it hudred of years ago: iron sand and added charcoal which forms some clumps of steel. I think it should be simillar to wootz steel or white steel only with less impurities. So my question is whether this steel is worth the money and hype or it is just mystified for marketing pourpouse ? I would expect modern steels to be superior


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## Codered (Dec 3, 2019)

Oh and can someone explain me the relevance of that tamahagane spark test? To me that looks really medieval. The physics behind sparks while grinding is that particles of iron ans steel are broken in the process and catch fire due to friction burn. The more britle the steel the more particles break loose ..the cleaner the iron the more fire it takes. If the steel has other compounds than iron and carbon these might form oxides that prevent burning.
What does this say about tamahagane? That is has less aloys and that it's very brittle. Is it better? Not relevant from this test.


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## lemeneid (Dec 3, 2019)

Anyone is deluding themselves, if they think tamahagane is some kind of magical steel with superior sharpness or edge retention compared to modern steels. It is however more asthetically beautiful if polished to the maximum potential. Its not called jewel steel for no reason.

You see sparks during forging as thats the impurities burning off during forging. So less sparks implies more pure. However compared to modern steels, it is nowhere as pure.


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## madelinez (Dec 3, 2019)

I'd have thought steels like SC125 would have less phosphorus or sulfur (the bad guys) than something traditionally made by collecting somewhat pure iron from sandy river beds and smelting it. SC125 probably has more carbon/manganese though which you could classify as an impurity (although a positive at those levels).


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## Luftmensch (Dec 3, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Anyone is deluding themselves, if they think tamahagane is some kind of magical steel with superior sharpness or edge retention compared to modern steels.



+1



lemeneid said:


> It is however more asthetically beautiful if polished to the maximum potential.



I might suggest this is even controversial. It is true that this is a part of the Nihonto art form. Blacksmiths and polishers will deliberately work to allow for creating/exaggerating patterns in the steel. Unique or intrinsic to tamahagane? I dont think so... Monosteel blades (honyaki) can produce intricate banding... and my tamahagane razors have zero interesting features beyond a boring hamon!




Codered said:


> So my question is whether this steel is worth the money and hype or it is just mystified for marketing pourpouse ?



I think the framing here is wrong... First up the answer is: no. @lemeneid is right. It is a high carbon steel. No magic. There is no marketing conspiracy. 'BIG tamahagane' is not pushing a product. It falls into the same category as unicorns. It is 'just' bloomery steel. That is to say, it is labour intensive and only a small amount is produced - so it has to cost more. Some people romanticise the level of artisanship that goes into producing it (and fair enough!). This again increases the cost.

If you are wondering if there are objective reasons for why it is better - there are none. If you are asking why people value it... well... "de gustibus non est disputandum"



Since I am rambling... on a side note.... I suppose the Western love affair for Japanese culture is a product of history. I am not an avid follower of history but a loose understanding of significant events in the past century(ish) is something like: trade prior to 1900's, an alliance with the British at the beginning of the 1900's, Japan joining the Axis powers in WWII, post WWII occupation. A lot of mythology gets exchanged in both directions when cultures mix (or oppose). Think about the Western love affair for Samurai mythology (e.g. exports like Kurosawa). What better way to make their weapons hold mystique than to embed them in heroic tales involving bravery and honour codes?! I think a lot of current affection for Japanese knives (or steel) bares the finger prints of that history.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 3, 2019)

danemonji said:


> I have a theory that unicorn knives such as Kato (shigefusa also following) are a dying breed



Hmmm.... this thread seems suspiciously close to the oft flogged dead horse: "Are blacksmith X _really_ worth while since they are so expensive and hard to get"

Perhaps a more genuinely interesting question is. What make a knife 'flavour of the month' and what makes a knife a 'timeless example of the craft'.

I thought these comments were stimulating:



labor of love said:


> I’ve been given the impression in the past, sometimes by vendors that the old way of forging is dying off in Japan.





danemonji said:


> From what i see the traditional smithing in Japan is there to stay. It's part of their national heritage. The smiths are highly appreciated by their society and the japanese love their traditional knives. It's in their DNA and history.



If the old way of forging is dying off... then 'unicorns' may get more scarce (and grow in value). If traditional smithing is a permanent fixture of national heritage... then unicorns will not get more scarce (though the sought after makers may shift over time). Traditional smithing is a part of Japan's national heritage (or at least so I believe). If you accept that premise... then perhaps the next question is... how far down the chain can the halo be passed? Tokifusa-san is reaching retirement. That will happen (for the most part) silently - the sons now embody the brand. But what about their future apprentices? Is it still romantic if it was only your master's master that was a renowned blacksmith?


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## Luftmensch (Dec 3, 2019)

....Last thought for the next while 



Barmoley said:


> Can we please stop with katana comparisons. Kitchen knives and katana have very little in common except that both are made of steel and cut things. The design purposes are so different that to draw any comparisons is just ridiculous.



I mostly agree. They clearly have different design purposes and constructions! Further... a good swordsmith does not automatically equate to a good knife maker. Similarly, a good knife maker does not automatically equate to a good sword maker.

Where I do think there is space to discuss nihonto is the cultural footprint they leave. Artistic or historic specimens can be graded as national treasures. To this end, sword making has been continued as an art form to preserve that tradition/culture. Remember that for a long time, swords were a sign of status. The technical and aesthetic ability of a swordsmith would have been part of that status. An N-th generation blacksmith, or one who trained under a national treasure, can rightly wear that with pride. Surely some of the methods and ritual around production would be passed down even if the end product is distinctly different.

I dunno... these days instead of fighting over the best swordsmith (as a sign of status and bragging rights) we are fighting over the best knife makers .... I guess maybe the some people over at a Nihonto forum are arguing over hyped swordsmiths? But hey.... at least we can legally use our tools


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## lemeneid (Dec 3, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> I might suggest this is even controversial. It is true that this is a part of the Nihonto art form. Blacksmiths and polishers will deliberately work to allow for creating/exaggerating patterns in the steel. Unique or intrinsic to tamahagane? I dont think so... Monosteel blades (honyaki) can produce intricate banding... and my tamahagane razors have zero interesting features beyond a boring hamon!


nope, totally disagree. with modern steels, you can only get banding. in tamahagane, you can get different kinds of hada, depending on how the steel was folded and forged and how the hamon is clayed. how the hada appears is up to the skill of the smith in folding and forging and how the polisher is able to bring out those characteristics. also in tamahagane, a good polisher can bring out different kinds of effects in the steel, dependent on the pieces chosen.

its interesting you brought up tamahagane razors, because every piece of tamahagane is different. when it is taken out from the tatara, the best sword makers will get first dibs on the best pieces to make their swords. then it trickles down, usually for razor makers, they chose different pieces from the sword smiths, for razors, they prioritize pieces that give hardness and sharpness not shiny hada. sword makers pick different pieces, depending on what they're making be it, iaido, heirloom swords, ceremonial, etc. in any case, the best stuff goes to the best smiths, the B and C grade stuff goes to other forgers.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 3, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> nope, totally disagree



I have no doubt you are more versed in the matter than me! So I am going to challenge you at my own peril 



lemeneid said:


> depending on how the steel was folded and forged and how the hamon is clayed. how the hada appears is up to the skill of the smith in folding and forging and how the polisher is able to bring out those characteristics.



this is what I am talking about when I say:



Luftmensch said:


> Blacksmiths and polishers will deliberately work to allow for creating/exaggerating patterns in the steel.



It is the master and not the material...



lemeneid said:


> with modern steels, you can only get banding



Perhaps. As I understand it, raw tamahagane is a good quality steel with high slag content. Folding was necessary to work the slag out of the bloom material. I believe this is the main contributing factor to hada (what choices were made during folding). Would the aesthetic affects be similar in bloom steels from other cultures? Probably. Could this be emulated with modern steels (even though folding them to work out slag is not necessary).... Probably!


Since this is a thread about unicorn hype being transient and katanas being irrelevant ... Perhaps this is an appropriate location to say, that I wouldnt be surprised if the elusive Shigefusa clouds were hada due to folding wrought iron stock


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## inferno (Dec 3, 2019)

Codered said:


> Oh and can someone explain me the relevance of that tamahagane spark test? To me that looks really medieval. The physics behind sparks while grinding is that particles of iron ans steel are broken in the process and catch fire due to friction burn. The more britle the steel the more particles break loose ..the cleaner the iron the more fire it takes. If the steel has other compounds than iron and carbon these might form oxides that prevent burning.
> What does this say about tamahagane? That is has less aloys and that it's very brittle. Is it better? Not relevant from this test.



tamahagane is steel made with the traditional method of pouring and burning charcoal and iron rich sands in a "tatara" clay smelting chimney kinda. this is usually a 36-72h or so process.

the end result is a low density sponge clump of steel. or aka bloom steel. 


they spark test the pieces to determine carbon content. and they grade these from highest to lowest. usually a katana is made out of at least 2 different kinds. with the same HT the high and low carbon steel will become softer or harder. and with these types of steel it means the lower carbon content steel is tougher and is used for the spine or sides or center of teh blade and the high carbon one becomes the edge. 

they also forge and and fold these pieces several times to get rid of contaminants in the steel. such as phosphorus and sulfur that makes steel brittle since these are non metallic inclusions. modern steel can have 0,003% or so of these. and tamahagane will not be close to this no. 

modern steel is so good you dont need to make a sword out of 2-3 different C% steels. you can use one single steel and through hardening it (same HT all over) and it will be tougher, harder, and keep an edge longer, and chip less, and so on. you can also just as well use something like 1070-1080 stright carbon steel. and then temper the spine to lower hardness/higher toughness with a torch after the regular tempering. tempering is not the same as hardening. 

i made a sword myself out of 80crv2 from krupp. and i'm fairly certain it will outperform any tamahagane sword ever created in all performance categories. by far.


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## krx927 (Dec 3, 2019)

Michi said:


> They are beautiful knives, no doubt. What's stopping me is that they are white #2. What is such a knife going to look like after a year of daily use? How much of the Hamon and the mirror finish will still be present then? (That's a genuine question; I have never owned a honyaki.)



My thoughts exactly,. Under assumption it's really being used for a year


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## Codered (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you for a very thorough answer


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## inferno (Dec 3, 2019)

also regarding wootz. its also called bulat in russia. it was never forgotten. its just a myth. 

wootz is a crucible steel. and its most likely much more pure than tamahagane, but i dont know if the performance is better. its a low hardness matrix with some dendritic alloy banding mostly caused by very low % of V, like 0,1% or so. and no this steel does not rival modern steel in performance. but it was probably good for the time. 

you could do a lot more interesting and better steels than this in a crucible today imo. even at home.

a saw a vid on youtube like 2-3 months ago where they basically recreated the whole process of wootz. and its identical.


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## inferno (Dec 3, 2019)

krx927 said:


> My thoughts exactly,. Under assumption it's really being used for a year



and michi! white 2 rusts i think the fastest of any steel, and also discolors fast. and if you were to take a kitchen sponge to it to clean it up every week that "temper line" will definitely disappear sooner or later. 

unless you polish it with a jnat uchigumori every week or so i'd guess. all honyakis are showpieces. sure you can use them but if you want that look youi will have to maintain it too. 

personally i would just use it and wipe it. and then after like 6 months i would restore it to "new". if you know how to that is. and have the stones.


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## panda (Dec 3, 2019)

i could give two sh*ts about hamon and clouds. i like honyaki because of the dense cutting edge and soft spine, it really makes a difference in how a blade feels in use (feedback, edge stability, etc).


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## inferno (Dec 3, 2019)

i like honyaki because its expensive.


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## labor of love (Dec 3, 2019)

My fave “Honyakis” so far have only costed $450-510


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## ian (Dec 3, 2019)

panda said:


> i could give two sh*ts about hamon and clouds. i like honyaki because of the dense cutting edge and soft spine, it really makes a difference in how a blade feels in use (feedback, edge stability, etc).



What's it mean for a cutting edge to be dense? Are you saying something besides high hardness?


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## labor of love (Dec 3, 2019)

ian said:


> What's it mean for a cutting edge to be dense? Are you saying something besides high hardness?


All the harder steel feels denser and heavier to me too compared to San mai and lower hardness mono.


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## ian (Dec 3, 2019)

labor of love said:


> All the harder steel feels denser and heavier to me too compared to San mai and lower hardness mono.



Is that actually a thing, then? I tried searching google for a correlation between steel density and hardness, but didn't come up with anything. It would seem strange to me if there was an actual correlation that made a noticeable difference to the user, since I doubt the total volume of the steel changes that much depending on the heat treatment, but not sure, of course.

This also made me go look up this earlier 10 page thread on honyakis. 

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/honyaki-i-dont-get-it.33678/page-10

I only looked through the first four pages, but Bryan Raquin and Robin Dalman seem to be downplaying the performance benefits a bit. They both argue that the differential heat treat doesn't necessarily make possible a higher hardness than you can get on a mono knife, for instance. 

I believe that the soft spine hard edge combination would make a difference in how it feels on the board, though, for sure.

Please allow me my rationalizations. If I seem defensive, it's because I don't want to feel like I need to buy one.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 3, 2019)

ian said:


> Please allow me my rationalizations. If I seem defensive, it's because I don't want to feel like I need to buy one.


Total waste of money and only for poseurs. There, now you can feel better.....


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## labor of love (Dec 3, 2019)

I’ll keep my comments in the realm of Japanese Honyaki...I don’t know the science or much about making knives but privately vendors of Japanese Honyakis have explained to me that often time Honyakis are heavier as is their nature. Can’t explain it, maybe harder steel just feels denser.


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## Michi (Dec 3, 2019)

inferno said:


> and michi! white 2 rusts i think the fastest of any steel, and also discolors fast. and if you were to take a kitchen sponge to it to clean it up every week that "temper line" will definitely disappear sooner or later.
> 
> unless you polish it with a jnat uchigumori every week or so i'd guess. all honyakis are showpieces. sure you can use them but if you want that look youi will have to maintain it too.
> 
> personally i would just use it and wipe it. and then after like 6 months i would restore it to "new". if you know how to that is. and have the stones.


Yes, figures. I'm afraid that my enthusiasm for high-performance knives doesn't quite go that far. Still, each to his own. And they do look awesome. If someone manages to make a stainless steel Honyaki, I'll be the first one to buy it


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## lemeneid (Dec 3, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> I have no doubt you are more versed in the matter than me! So I am going to challenge you at my own peril
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Every piece of tamahagane that comes out from the furnace is different. So it is up to the blacksmith to pick out the best pieces for what he is creating. Just chosing the pieces with high or low carbon, lots of jeweling or less jeweling, its a skill they learn over many years.
And also like I mentioned, the best smiths get to chose their pieces first. So if you aren't the best smith, you get the lower quality ones, and no matter the skill, there is only so much you can do with B or C grade tamahagane.


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## panda (Dec 3, 2019)

i think the best steel is iwasaki and that is said to be modern version of tamahagane which is the only reason i want to try the original stuff out of curiosity, none of this artisenal mumbo jumbo crap reasoning..


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## Luftmensch (Dec 4, 2019)

Can unicorns/hype/mystique last since for a long time? Sure! How about since the end of the iron age?



lemeneid said:


> Every piece of tamahagane that comes out from the furnace is different. So it is up to the blacksmith to pick out the best pieces for what he is creating. Just chosing the pieces with high or low carbon, lots of jeweling or less jeweling, its a skill they learn over many years.
> And also like I mentioned, the best smiths get to chose their pieces first. So if you aren't the best smith, you get the lower quality ones, and no matter the skill, there is only so much you can do with B or C grade tamahagane.



Perhaps we are speaking cross purposes a little? I am 100% down with what you are saying. I recognise the skill/craft/art that goes into all the steps (smelting the steel, forging the sword, polishing the sword - there are probably more). And these are not the same artisans: "many hands make light work"! I think this craft is valuable and is worthy of respect!


The subtlety I am trying to introduce is that the aesthetic beauty of a sword is a function of the artesans and not necessarily the material (tamahagane).

Tamahagane is decent steel that comes with baggage... The bloomeries didnt get hot enough to liquefy the iron. If you can melt the iron/steel, you can make it homogeneous and scoop the slag off the top of the liquid. Not so with blooms... Folding was used to compensate for the heterogeneous nature of the blooms and the large presence of 'impurities'. By folding many times the steel becomes more homogeneous and some of the 'impurities' are removed. Why do I use the scare quotes? Well.... what are impurities?



inferno said:


> they also forge and and fold these pieces several times to get rid of contaminants in the steel. such as phosphorus and sulfur that makes steel brittle since these are non metallic inclusions.



@inferno is probably right. Im not sure - I don't know enough about blacksmithing... Those furnaces were a mess of iron, sand, steel and charcoal. As I understand it... 'impurities' in this context are the more macroscopic things (a.k.a slag, sand, charcoal). I don't know if you can reduce the phosphorus content (using these methods) if it is present in the ore?

Anyway... the material informed the process... the process informed the art (and no doubt there was a feedback loop). We have better materials now... But we can choose to retain the process. I don't see why an artesan couldn't start with a better quality steel, fold it several times (adding impurities if they wished) to produce a nice hada.

Maybe I am wrong. But I bet it is theoretically possible to make a sword that is visibly/practically indistinguishable from tamahagane swords using modern materials. Sure... It wouldnt be traditional. But it would look pretty. If so, surely that would rob tamahagane of any special status. If it has any, it is that it is a cantankerous, contaminated steel - like any other bloom steel - that is difficult to work with and does not offer any intrinsic benefits (functionally or otherwise) other than being labour intensive and lower quality than the modern alternatives. That in no way takes away from the artistry or is a slight on Japanese blacksmithing. It is an elegant solution given the technological constraints civilisation faced at the time... But it isnt the iron age anymore. ~1200 years have past! We can do better. And THAT is why it is romantic to me... Not everything has to be perfect or made by a machine.


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## inferno (Dec 6, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> Can unicorns/hype/mystique last since for a long time? Sure! How about since the end of the iron age?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1 i think its possible. otherwise all steel today would be filled with these impurities. i think they simply burn them off. either way forging and folding definitely purified the steel. because it was unusable without it. 
P and S is the worst things you can have in steel pretty much. 

2 tamahagane is not any kind of standardized formula. its just the method. it can be from like 0,6C or 1,5%C. its all tamahagane. also the more times you fold it the more carbon it gonna lose in the process. it gets cooked off as carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. 

I think almost all steels today are "better" than tamahagane. what you are paying for is that they make it from sand, it takes a long time and its scarce. and its all manual labor.

from what i have read, in japan they can only make a smallish amount of tamahagane each year. they are forbidden to do more by law.
the swords made out of tamahagane using all traditional methods are not classified as weapons, instead they are art or historical objects or something. if the same smiths were to make these swords out of 1095 they would be weapons = illegal. and they can only make a few per each smith per year. by law.

yeah time has passed since the 12hundreds. and now we have steels like cpm3v. which is tougher, and keep and edge a lot longer than anything from even 30 years ago. a lot. all in one package that you can mass produce if you want with machines.

one could probably chop down a whole forest with a 3v sword.

sweden is also a country where the steel making tradition is strong. but here we were just lucky to find good places that have very low % of non metallic contaminant ore. and this is still a very profitable export. the less refining/purifying you need to do to get top quality the more money you make.


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## inferno (Dec 6, 2019)

also on a sidenote in crucible steel like wootz for example. they have glass/sand in the crucible. when the sand/glass melts and the steel melts it goes through the molten glass several times up and down and then the silicon in the glass reacts and binds with certain contaminants and the steel is purified. also the glass is lighter so it stays on top protection the steel from oxygen. 

i would guess this method produce steel that is 10-100 times more pure than the japanese method. since this is quite similar to modern industrial methods.


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## inferno (Dec 6, 2019)

i find this interesting regarding manganese for instance. most steel contain manganese. manganese is a purifier in steel. its almost never ever found in powder steel, since they are pure from the start. so no need for it. I remember reading kevin cashen saying its not wanted in high performance steel at all.
from wikipedia.

Manganese is essential to iron and steel production by virtue of its sulfur-fixing, deoxidizing, and alloying properties, as first recognized by the British metallurgist Robert Forester Mushet (1811–1891) who, in 1856, introduced the element, in the form of Spiegeleisen, into steel for the specific purpose of removing excess dissolved oxygen, sulfur, and phosphorus in order to improve its malleability. Steelmaking,[37] including its ironmaking component, has accounted for most manganese demand, presently in the range of 85% to 90% of the total demand.[34] Manganese is a key component of low-cost stainless steel.[32][38] Often ferromanganese (usually about 80% manganese) is the intermediate in modern processes.

Small amounts of manganese improve the workability of steel at high temperatures by forming a high-melting sulfide and preventing the formation of a liquid iron sulfide at the grain boundaries. If the manganese content reaches 4%, the embrittlement of the steel becomes a dominant feature. The embrittlement decreases at higher manganese concentrations and reaches an acceptable level at 8%. Steel containing 8 to 15% of manganese has a high tensile strength of up to 863 MPa.[39][40] Steel with 12% manganese was discovered in 1882 by Robert Hadfield and is still known as Hadfield steel (mangalloy). It was used for British military steel helmets and later by the U.S. military.[41]


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## Codered (Dec 6, 2019)

Does anyone know anything about the UHC (ultra high carbon) steel produced by the finish knifemaker Heilmo Rosselli. His knives are chunky and i don't like them but the steel is a type of wootz with 2.5 % carbon with no aloys, hardened at about 64hrc. it sharpens like white steel and holds an edge for a long long time (famous in rope cutting vids) it also doesn't chip easily. I wonder if this steel were to be forged by a more skilled knifemake what that knife would be like.


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## inferno (Dec 6, 2019)

i think its wootz. fairly sure of that. his version of wootz that is. might be produced by the old inidan crucible method no one really knows.

to get alloy banding in wootz you need some carbide former. i think the most common one in old wootz was vanadium in like 0,05-0,1% or so. and it came from the ore they used. look it up on youtube there are hours and hours on this there.

wootz was classically a softish matrix like 40-50 hrc or so with hard carbide (mostly Vanadium-Carbide iirc) banding in there (and maybe some Cr-C too). showing up as dendrites.

to maintain the dendritic structure of the carbide banding it needed to be forged in a special way back then (slow). not sure how its is now with modern stuff.

i have read that the rosselli blades dont cut too well because the profile. so you would need to take these to the stones. supposedly. i have not even seen one of his blades myself.

but if you ask me. putting 2,5% C in any steel without it turning into cast iron is quite an accomplishment. because thats usually what happens. the alloying elements segregates and then you have a frying pan.
this is no problem with powder steel but with ingot its impressive. very impressive.

this is probably the very exact type of steel/method that has been used in russia as bulat since the indan wootz period though.


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## Badgertooth (Dec 7, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> but the mystic of workhorse grind has been deciphered, I bought the poor man’s Workhorse instead, a 210 Mazaki weight in at hefty 208g, specs 6mm/5mm/2.7mm/1mm is a carbon copy of Kato geometry with slightly thinner tip.



Oh honey, no.


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## Badgertooth (Dec 7, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> It’s only the geometry dimensions that Mazaki appears to have copied Kato, is that not true?



Oh honey, please stop.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 7, 2019)

I’d highly recommend not to “honey” me as I am a pretty rough looking old dude with beer belly. 

That being said, I am new to the forum, would be very interested to hear your enlightenment regarding to Kato grinds...


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## Luftmensch (Dec 7, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> I’d highly recommend not to “honey” me as I am a pretty rough looking old dude with beer belly.



You ever seen @Badgertooth though? He literally has badgers for teeth - you don't want to mess with that neither


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## Luftmensch (Dec 7, 2019)

inferno said:


> i think its possible. otherwise all steel today would be filled with these impurities.



Oh definitely! I meant with iron age technology. In modern blast furnaces it is possible to add process to desulphurise, dephosphorise and desiliconise the metal. Increasing the basicity of slag increases desulphurisation (helps distribute sulphur into the slag). This is often done using lime as a flux. Dephosphorisation is an oxidation process and can be done using iron oxides and oxygen.



inferno said:


> i think they simply burn them off.



Perhaps?

I am not particularly knowledgable about chemistry and metallurgy. Nor about how those processes were utilised and limited by old smelting techniques. Certainly; not being able to liquify the metal (as in a blast furnace) was a technological limitation and introduces challenges in decontaminating the steel.

This all said... The japanese iron sands are actually reasonably low in P/S content [see]. Perhaps what makes people think the iron sands are 'impure' is that for any given amount of iron sand, the content of iron can be low... really low. But this is not the same as being relatively high in P/S content!



inferno said:


> what you are paying for is that they make it from sand, it takes a long time and its scarce. and its all manual labor.



Exactly.... Imagine starting with ore that has a marginal amount of the metal you are interested in. Processing it to yield 13 tonnes of slightly refined iron sand. Then gathering another 13 tonnes of charcoal. Now you smelt that for 70 hours to produce only 2.8 tonnes of bloom steel. But only the best quality parts of the bloom steel is used for tamahagane - so the yield is reduced even further to one tonne or less [see]. The yield is _extremely_ poor. That is a heck of a lot of labour to make a decent (but not magical!) steel.

Again, I am no master in this subject matter. So this interpretation could well be 'impure'. Read it with a pinch of NaCl 





inferno said:


> I think almost all steels today are "better" than tamahagane



Ha! Better? I suppose it depends how you measure 'better'. On yield and cost of production per tonne, I would say _every_ commercial steel made today is better than tamahagane .



inferno said:


> yeah time has passed since the 12hundreds. and now we have steels like cpm3v. which is tougher, and keep and edge a lot longer than anything from even 30 years ago. a lot. all in one package that you can mass produce if you want with machines.



True... But tsukumogami cant exist in machine made tools 




inferno said:


> sweden is also a country where the steel making tradition is strong. but here we were just lucky to find good places that have very low % of non metallic contaminant ore. and this is still a very profitable export. the less refining/purifying you need to do to get top quality the more money you make.



.... And so it goes.... full circle....

Kousuke Iwasaki was a respected metallurgist in the early-mid twentieth century. Much of the information about him on the (english) internet looks quite concentrated - only a few sources that probably copy/reference each other. While I take this information at face value, it would be nice to read some material that gave the sense of being more authoritative.

I read he was the one who developed the coloured paper classification system for japanese steels (yellow/white/blue). He married historical blacksmithing with scientific principles and modern knowledge. Like today, tamahagane in the mid twentieth century was scarce - so he searched for a substitute. After studying various options Swedish steel was selected as an alternative that had similar properties.

As much as we build a mythology around tamahagane, I rather imagine a mythology around the 'purity/quality' of Swedish steel has grown in Japan. Today Japanese knife manufactures use Swedish steel as a selling point.... It is not that I doubt the quality of ore or steel from Sweden. But as we have already discussed, modern furnaces can control the quality of their output fairly well. Because of this, the output quality (steel) isn't as strongly linked to the input quality (ore) as it was in the past.


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## Barclid (Dec 7, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> I’d highly recommend not to “honey” me as I am a pretty rough looking old dude with beer belly.
> 
> That being said, I am new to the forum, would be very interested to hear your enlightenment regarding to Kato grinds...


Oh, honey.


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## lemeneid (Dec 7, 2019)

inferno said:


> from what i have read, in japan they can only make a smallish amount of tamahagane each year. they are forbidden to do more by law.
> the swords made out of tamahagane using all traditional methods are not classified as weapons, instead they are art or historical objects or something. if the same smiths were to make these swords out of 1095 they would be weapons = illegal. and they can only make a few per each smith per year. by law.


thats not fully true. Raw tamahagane ore and sand is just banned from export, they can use however much they want domestically though, but the number of mines is dwindling which indirectly implies the quality of the tamahagane being produced now is also getting lower in quality. Which makes it even more important that only the best smiths get to use tamahagane now.


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## pentryumf (Apr 24, 2020)

inferno said:


> tamahagane is steel made with the traditional method of pouring and burning charcoal and iron rich sands in a "tatara" clay smelting chimney kinda. this is usually a 36-72h or so process.
> 
> the end result is a low density sponge clump of steel. or aka bloom steel.
> 
> ...


Did you seriously make a sword, and if true can I see a picture of it? Please?


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## inferno (Apr 24, 2020)

i have not made a sword out of tamahagane no. 
i made a sword out of 80crv2 @60hrc which is about 700% higher performing. 

i made this about 6 months ago. its just rough ground, hardened, then tempered. have not had the time nor motiavtion to put a handle on it. 
gonna be masur birch though. a stump that my grandfather game my father. and now i have it. and its gonna be the handle.

40cm blade, 20cm tang. it was the longest i could fit in my oven to temper it properly. 

i built this mostly so i can have it on my back when i ride to work and back. you know, to eliminate "unforseen problems" and such. 
getting home safe and sound.







pre harden grind



https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachments/swordproject4-jpg.62765/


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## banzai_burrito (Apr 24, 2020)

inferno said:


> i have not made a sword out of tamahagane no.
> i made a sword out of 80crv2 @60hrc which is about 700% higher performing.
> 
> i made this about 6 months ago. its just rough ground, hardened, then tempered. have not had the time nor motiavtion to put a handle on it.
> ...


Somewhat off topic, but that giant santoku with the handle partially on. Is that a knife you made?


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## Runner_up (Apr 25, 2020)

jaknil said:


> IMHO:
> Munetoshi Kurouchi Gyuto 240mm
> 
> I do have quite a few kniwes in the +1000 USD category, but this one is still one of my most prefeered cutters.
> ...



Agree with you there. Kato, Shig, Heiji, TF, Toyama, Yoshikazu Tanaka - at this point I own and enjoy a lot of the "greats", but man, the Munetoshi knives are outrageous. I've been thinking about buying backups because I believe in them that much.. Wish I did it when they were on sale.


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## preizzo (Apr 25, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> The only ones still on BST are “used” ones and that other one that was tipped. The BNIB ones sell really quickly.


Collector shelf holder


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## ian (Apr 25, 2020)

inferno said:


> i built this mostly so i can have it on my back when i ride to work and back. you know, to eliminate "unforseen problems" and such.
> getting home safe and sound.



Probably effective! It used to be that a sword on your back would show everyone you were not to be messed with. Now it indicates you’re a crazy person. Same effect though. They stay away.


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## inferno (Apr 27, 2020)

banzai_burrito said:


> Somewhat off topic, but that giant santoku with the handle partially on. Is that a knife you made?



i made a thread when i finished it. i'm not really good at finishing knives. but i'm good at starting projects.





My first knife


I've done about 20 or so handles before but this is my first complete knife. its uddeholm 15n20 steel at about 62-63hrc or so. 165C temper. finest grain. its a single bevel 3mm thick blade. 180x60. back side is completely flat. stone flat. all other surfaces are stone flat too. i finished the...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## inferno (Apr 27, 2020)

ian said:


> Probably effective! It used to be that a sword on your back would show everyone you were not to be messed with. Now it indicates you’re a crazy person. Same effect though. They stay away.



carrying knives here is illegal and you go to prison for it.


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## M1k3 (Apr 27, 2020)

But swords are ok? Can you carry a pocket sword?


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## inferno (Apr 27, 2020)

a sword is a long knife so no.


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