# Honyaki, Mizu- Honyaki and Abura- Honyaki



## Midsummer

Honyaki has been defined as a mono steel knife differentially hardened by a Japanese master (correct me if I am wrong please).

Mizu- implies water quenched

Abura- implies oil quenched

If a maker says Honyaki but does not specify Mizu, is it therefore Abura? Based on the advertising it should seem so; but does anyone know?

Eg: Mizuno both blue and White no mention of Mizu.
Kenichi Shiraki blades on James's site have no mention of Mizu..

Thanks for any insight

Tom


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## Gjackson98

Midsummer said:


> Honyaki has been defined as a mono steel knife differentially hardened by a Japanese master (correct me if I am wrong please).
> 
> Mizu- implies water quenched
> 
> Abura- implies oil quenched
> 
> If a maker says Honyaki but does not specify Mizu, is it therefore Abura? Based on the advertising it should seem so; but does anyone know?
> 
> Eg: Mizuno both blue and White no mention of Mizu.
> Kenichi Shiraki blades on James's site have no mention of Mizu..
> 
> Thanks for any insight
> 
> Tom



The best answer is to sent the seller a question to confirm. 
Personally I will always assume it is Abura if not specify.


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## HRC_64

White (1,2) and Blue (1,2) needs water to quench it fast enough, and only White3 can quench in oil.

So just ask to confirm the steel.

For pseudo-honyaki (western blacksmiths), its a bit more complicatd (but also irrelevant).


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## Midsummer

Gjackson98 said:


> The best answer is to sent the seller a question to confirm.
> Personally I will always assume it is Abura if not specify.



Good idea thanks



HRC_64 said:


> White (1,2) and Blue (1,2) needs water to quench it fast enough, and only White3 can quench in oil.
> 
> So just ask to confirm the steel.
> 
> For pseudo-honyaki (western blacksmiths), its a bit more complicatd (but also irrelevant).



Sounds like a good rule but at AFrames they have; "Tesshu Wa Gyuto Abura Honyaki 210mm Blue I Steel blackish finish blade Japanese Chef Knife w/ Octagonal shaped Ho and Water Buffalo Ferrule Handle. It is made by Takagi Kogyosho where is located on Yoita, Niigata in Japan. The stamp is our brand name Tesshu. It is oil quench blue I steel honyaki, so the blade does not used soft iron. It is just mono steel forged blade."


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## JBroida

HRC_64 said:


> White (1,2) and Blue (1,2) needs water to quench it fast enough, and only White3 can quench in oil.
> 
> So just ask to confirm the steel.
> 
> For pseudo-honyaki (western blacksmiths), its a bit more complicatd (but also irrelevant).



Not true at all... all of them can be oil or water quenched


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## HRC_64

Hitachi (OEM) specs shirogami (1,2) as water quench only. 

https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami1.html
https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami2.html

White 3 and Blue are dual-spec'd water or oil.

https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/aogami1.html
https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/aogami2.html
https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami3.html

Of course you can do whatever you want.


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## bahamaroot

HRC_64 said:


> White (1,2) and Blue (1,2) needs water to quench it fast enough, and only White3 can quench in oil.
> 
> So just ask to confirm the steel.
> 
> For pseudo-honyaki (western blacksmiths), its a bit more complicatd (but also irrelevant).





JBroida said:


> Not true at all... all of them can be oil or water quenched


Busted!


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## HRC_64

bahamaroot said:


> Busted!



Too clever by half...


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## StonedEdge

HRC_64 said:


> Hitachi (OEM) specs shirogami (1,2) as water quench only.
> 
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami1.html
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami2.html
> 
> White 3 and Blue are dual-spec'd water or oil.
> 
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/aogami1.html
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/aogami2.html
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami3.html
> 
> Of course you can do whatever you want.


This is gold. Love when interwebz experts type in absolutes


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## osakajoe

Just noticed this thread. 

Jon is correct. If you think only white 3 honyaki are oil quenched and everything else is water, you are seriously misinformed. 

Most forgers work with oil quench as it’s easier to work with. I was just grinding 5 petty, and 4 gyuto honyaki white 2 Knives in Sakai last week. 

Only one was water quenched and it was specifically stamped as 水本焼 on the blade. The other were oil quenched. Words directly from the craftsman. 

Keep posting links though from your chairs please. I won’t take any notice.


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## Kippington

It's only a method of cooling, there's no need to overthink it.

One day I want to quench into one of those huge blocks of butter, unsalted of course.
I can just see it, imagine the marketing:
_"Quenched in butter, sharpened with diamonds." *gluten free_
I'll see you all on Kickstarter


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## Drosophil

Make that coconut oil and you'll reach your goal in half an hour.


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## comet_sharp

HRC_64 said:


> Hitachi (OEM) specs shirogami (1,2) as water quench only.
> 
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami1.html
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami2.html
> 
> White 3 and Blue are dual-spec'd water or oil.
> 
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/aogami1.html
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/aogami2.html
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/shirogami3.html
> 
> Of course you can do whatever you want.



Water quench in sections over a quarter inch thick. All those simple hitachi steels can be oil quenched with fast enough oil and proper control of grain size and austentizing soak time and temperature.
There are oils now rated to hit the pearlite nose within the same window as water then slow cooling to reduce thermal shock, they are awesome...


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## Midsummer

Kippington said:


> It's only a method of cooling, there's no need to overthink it.
> 
> One day I want to quench into one of those huge blocks of butter, unsalted of course.
> I can just see it, imagine the marketing:
> _"Quenched in butter, sharpened with diamonds." *gluten free_
> I'll see you all on Kickstarter



How about the body of a slave? Dragon blood or the urine of a red haired boy?

"The secrets of Damascus steel were shared by armorers in many parts of the ancient world, notably in Persia, where some of the finest specimens were produced. It was in the quenching that many believed it acquired magical properties. According to Dr. Helmut Nickel, curator of the Arms and Armor Division of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, legend had it that the best blades were quenched in ''dragon blood.''

In a recent letter to the museum a Pakistani told of a sword held in his family for many generations, quenched by its Afghan makers in donkey urine. Some medieval smiths recommended the urine of redheaded boys or that from a ''three-year-old goat fed only ferns for three days.''

For eight centuries the Arab sword makers succeeded in concealing their techniques from competitors -and from posterity. Those in Europe only revealed that they quenched in ''red medicine'' or ''green medicine.'' A less abrupt form of cooling, according to one account, was achieved when the blade, still red hot, was ''carried ina furious gal lop by a horseman on a fast horse.''

Writings found in Asia Minor said that to temper a Damascus sword the blade must be heated until it glows ''like the sun rising in the desert.'' It then should be cooled to the color of royal purple and plunged ''into the body of a muscular slave'' so that his strength would be transferred to the sword.


In the ancient accounts there is more than one reference to such homicidal quenching. In a recent interview, Dr. Nickel pointed out that while many of the quenching techniques were based on superstition, they may have contributed to the success of the process, as by adding nitrogen to the alloy."


From: https://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/29/science/the-mystery-of-damascus-steel-appears-solved.html


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## Kippington

Midsummer said:


> ...legend had it that *the best blades were quenched in ''dragon blood.''*


I've done this before, no joke. We spotted this bottle in the store while getting beers after forging - couldn't pass it up. It also happened to be on a night of a full moon. Whoever has that blade now is probably half way to conquering the known universe as we speak.


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## Dan P.

The main reason for quenching honyaki knives in oil over water is because they are less likely to warp, and if they do warp, they will warp less, and straightening a monosteel at honyaki hardness is a real turd, even with the clayed back.


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## dwalker

Well, if I may come from experience with many different honyaki blades, mostly water quenched, only a couple oil quenched. I will take my oil quenched white 3 over any of the water quenched white 1 or 2 I've used. I've had better edge retention and easier sharpening with this white steel over any other. Myth and legend be damned, I want what works. YMMV.


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## JBroida

dwalker said:


> Well, if I may come from experience with many different honyaki blades, mostly water quenched, only a couple oil quenched. I will take my oil quenched white 3 over any of the water quenched white 1 or 2 I've used. I've had better edge retention and easier sharpening with this white steel over any other. Myth and legend be damned, I want what works. YMMV.



Most of the craftsmen I know would agree that oil quenched is way better for real use. Also turns out I was wrong about water quenching getting a better hamon to show up. The blacksmiths I spoke with this year all said oil is easier to get a nice and defined hamon. And for what it’s worth, I agree with you too. Sadly for me, there is a gap between what the craftsmen think is their best work and what people assume is their best work and want to order most.


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## dwalker

JBroida said:


> Most of the craftsmen I know would agree that oil quenched is way better for real use. Also turns out I was wrong about water quenching getting a better hamon to show up. The blacksmiths I spoke with this year all said oil is easier to get a nice and defined hamon. And for what it’s worth, I agree with you too. Sadly for me, there is a gap between what the craftsmen think is their best work and what people assume is their best work and want to order most.


Just call it like I see it. I have had the opportunity to order a few knives direct and have always asked for whatever the craftsmen feel is their best work. Blacksmith and sharpener/finisher. I have only ammended my requests to suggest I prefer a taller gyuto. I am awaiting delivery on most of these, but I have been pretty satisfied so far. Allowing the craftsmen to work well within their comfort zone will give you superior product more often than not. The end user should pay little attention to steel type, quench media, RCH, etc. Rely on the DECADES OF EXPERIENCE AND EXPERTISE OF THE CRAFTSMEN DOING THE WORK. There are very few end users that can use and sharpen a knife and tell me what steel it is or what RCH it is or how it is quenched. So why bother concentrating on such mundane details. Unless, of course, the secondary market is the main concern, in which case you should go only with mizu white 1 or, even better, mizu blue honyaki. I'll be looking for the good stuff - no matter how it is made.


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## GorillaGrunt

dwalker said:


> Well, if I may come from experience with many different honyaki blades, mostly water quenched, only a couple oil quenched. I will take my oil quenched white 3 over any of the water quenched white 1 or 2 I've used. I've had better edge retention and easier sharpening with this white steel over any other. Myth and legend be damned, I want what works. YMMV.



Does this hold for double bevel and single bevel equally?


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## labor of love

Dwalker, have you tried very many white 2 oil quench honyakis?


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## HRC_64

I thought the premise of this thread was there was no way to tell them apart?


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## dwalker

GorillaGrunt said:


> Does this hold for double bevel and single bevel equally?


I don't have enough experience with single bevel honyaki to offer anything useful.


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## dwalker

labor of love said:


> Dwalker, have you tried very many white 2 oil quench honyakis?


If my info is correct on my white 1 and 2 honyakis, all of them are mizu. It is the white 3 oil quenched that I have experience with. 

The reason I contributed to this thread is there seems to be a generalization that white 3 oil quench is somehow inferior to white 1 and 2 water quench. Probably because they cost less. I have all 3 of these from the same smith and prefer the white 3. I think it is the best version of white steel I've ever used. The difference is subtle but it sharpens easier and holds an edge longer. If I didn't have side by side comparison, I'm quite certain that I could not tell the difference and I would wager 99% of everyone would be in the same boat. My point is, in my experience, an oil quenched blade is in no way inferior to a water quenched one, at least in use. On the retail and secondary markets, not so much.


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## Dan P.

JBroida said:


> Most of the craftsmen I know would agree that oil quenched is way better for real use. Also turns out I was wrong about water quenching getting a better hamon to show up. The blacksmiths I spoke with this year all said oil is easier to get a nice and defined hamon. And for what it’s worth, I agree with you too. Sadly for me, there is a gap between what the craftsmen think is their best work and what people assume is their best work and want to order most.



If you are quenching in water, you will be quenching at the lower/lowest end of the austenitizing range. If you are austenitizing the honyaki in the traditional manner, over an open flame, then it is extremely difficult and unlikely that you will be giving the steel the optimal soak time, and the properties of the knife, including the strength of the hamon, will reflect that.

If you are quenching in oil, on the other hand, you can quench toward the higher end of the range, and the energy input you need to effect the metallurgical transformation desired will be closer to optimal.

Thus given short soak times, higher temperature followed by oil would be the better option. Given longer soak times... perhaps lower temps followed by water?
Or of course a smith could go with higher temperatures and quench in water, and suffer the consequences!


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## Drosophil

dwalker said:


> Well, if I may come from experience with many different honyaki blades, mostly water quenched, only a couple oil quenched. I will take my oil quenched white 3 over any of the water quenched white 1 or 2 I've used. I've had better edge retention and easier sharpening with this white steel over any other. Myth and legend be damned, I want what works.  YMMV.



Yeah, but white 1 and blue 1 mizu honyakis kept in glass display cases hold an edge for even longer.


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## panda

make sure its kobe butter


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## JBroida

Dan P. said:


> If you are quenching in water, you will be quenching at the lower/lowest end of the austenitizing range. If you are austenitizing the honyaki in the traditional manner, over an open flame, then it is extremely difficult and unlikely that you will be giving the steel the optimal soak time, and the properties of the knife, including the strength of the hamon, will reflect that.
> 
> If you are quenching in oil, on the other hand, you can quench toward the higher end of the range, and the energy input you need to effect the metallurgical transformation desired will be closer to optimal.
> 
> Thus given short soak times, higher temperature followed by oil would be the better option. Given longer soak times... perhaps lower temps followed by water?
> Or of course a smith could go with higher temperatures and quench in water, and suffer the consequences!



I am totally not a blacksmith, and you clearly have more knowledge about this than I do. I'm just passing along what has been said to me by the blacksmiths i know and speak with, along with my observations. This may be what is going on, but I dont know for sure and would have to ask to confirm. For what its worth, its been interesting learning a lot of technical terms for these kinds of things in Japanese.


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## Dan P.

JBroida said:


> I am totally not a blacksmith, and you clearly have more knowledge about this than I do. I'm just passing along what has been said to me by the blacksmiths i know and speak with, along with my observations. This may be what is going on, but I dont know for sure and would have to ask to confirm. For what its worth, its been interesting learning a lot of technical terms for these kinds of things in Japanese.



Sorry, didn’t mean to mansplain, I was just connecting the various dots that your previous post caused to manifest in my tiny mind. Makes sense, though. To me.


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## JBroida

Dan P. said:


> Sorry, didn’t mean to mansplain, I was just connecting the various dots that your previous post caused to manifest in my tiny mind. Makes sense, though. To me.



Lol... as long as it all makes sense


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## Dan P.

JBroida said:


> Lol... as long as it all makes sense



Particularly the thing about the hamon. I never made the connection before.


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## adam92

JBroida said:


> Most of the craftsmen I know would agree that oil quenched is way better for real use. Also turns out I was wrong about water quenching getting a better hamon to show up. The blacksmiths I spoke with this year all said oil is easier to get a nice and defined hamon. And for what it’s worth, I agree with you too. Sadly for me, there is a gap between what the craftsmen think is their best work and what people assume is their best work and want to order most.


I think my next yanagiba would be oil quenched white 3 instead of white 1 water quenched! As easier to get a nice and defined hamon, easier to use & sharpen


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## adam92

JBroida said:


> Most of the craftsmen I know would agree that oil quenched is way better for real use. Also turns out I was wrong about water quenching getting a better hamon to show up. The blacksmiths I spoke with this year all said oil is easier to get a nice and defined hamon. And for what it’s worth, I agree with you too. Sadly for me, there is a gap between what the craftsmen think is their best work and what people assume is their best work and want to order most.


After watching yours thread make me want to get oil quenched honyaki instead of mizu honyaki


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