# "Tricks" for estimating the correct angle?



## mark76 (Dec 15, 2015)

Have you guys any tricks for estamating the correct angle? I mean tricks like "2 euro coins at the spine of a gyuto will approximately result in an x degree angle".


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 15, 2015)

Any of the "coin tricks" will give varied results according to the width of the knife from edge to spine as well as where on the blade you place the coin stack.

Your best bet is to find a protractor and use it to mark a thin piece of wood with the desired angle, and then cut it to make a template (thin balsa is excellent for this purpose). It's a lot more accurate than a couple of coins.


----------



## gic (Dec 15, 2015)

I used a miter saw to cut a bunch of triangles, worked great if you have acess to a miter saw


----------



## ThEoRy (Dec 15, 2015)

What does knowing accomplish? I don't know my angles but I know my blades are sharp as ****.


----------



## Zwiefel (Dec 15, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> What does knowing accomplish? I don't know my angles but I know my blades are sharp as ****.



while my edges do not compare favorably to Rick's (either of you!), I completely agree....which is why I think this is the best "trick":

[video=youtube;8kzGvtX-h8g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kzGvtX-h8g[/video]


----------



## bob_loblaw (Dec 15, 2015)

And once you have the angle set, you can use the "bite" trick to find it in subsequent sharpening. Just slowly push on an edge-leading stroke with light pressure while raising the angle until it starts to "bite" the stone, then you have your sharpening angle.


----------



## gic (Dec 15, 2015)

I like the angle things when I change the angle of a knife otherwise the bite trick works fine for me


----------



## ynot1985 (Dec 15, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> What does knowing accomplish? I don't know my angles but I know my blades are sharp as ****.



You can try an angle cube if you insist on knowing the angle but I'm with Theory on this one.. hence why my angle cube is in a drawer collecting dust


----------



## ecchef (Dec 15, 2015)

You should be able to find a free clinometer app for your phone.


----------



## bkultra (Dec 15, 2015)

You could buy something like this if you are trying to learn and get a feel for the angle


----------



## daveb (Dec 15, 2015)

I was told early on that a consistent angle was a lot more important than a specific angle. The magic marker will help be consistent.


----------



## toddnmd (Dec 16, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> What does knowing accomplish? I don't know my angles but I know my blades are sharp as ****.



I also used my miter saw to cut some 15 and 22 degree pieces of wood. I don't use them that much anymore, but in earlier sharpening it was a helpful reference. I could put the wood under the blade to get a sense of the angle. Then do some sharpening, and put the piece of wood back to see how close I was to the angle. I actually thought it was helpful to develop some of the muscle memory of consistently holding the knife at a certain angle. 

I use the magic marker as well, but it's somewhat different, and less immediate.

That thing that bkultra posted goes on the spine, so has the same issue as the stack of coins--it really depends how tall the knife is to determine an angle. Not to mention the height decrease toward the tip on most knives.


----------



## AllanP (Dec 16, 2015)

daveb said:


> I was told early on that a consistent angle was a lot more important than a specific angle. The magic marker will help be consistent.



you are right, I think knowing the angle means very little when I can't keep that angle when I first started sharpening.

Personally I think no matter how good you are, it's physically impossible to do exact angles when free hand sharpening, consistency over a small range is what's more important.


----------



## krx927 (Dec 16, 2015)

bkultra said:


> You could buy something like this if you are trying to learn and get a feel for the angle



I tried this when beginning to free hand but it is completely useless. I got way better result when I did not use anything to hold the angle.

Also completely true what Pensacola Tiger is saying, coins are useless as the angle depends on the width of the knife. I am now also in process of creating triangles from wood. Unfortunately I found out it is impossible to do them with hand saw  Now I asked a carpenter to do some for me.

I do not need them to get the exact desired angle of the bevel, like a lot of you are saying the angle is not so important, consistency is. For me it is more to help me get the exact same angle for the next sharpening of the same knife. The magic marker trick is not that accurate, wooden triangle will be much better. Perhaps I should try the "bite" trick also next time but I suspect it will not be any more accurate as the magic marker.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

krx927 said:


> I am now also in process of creating triangles from wood. Unfortunately I found out it is impossible to do them with hand saw  Now I asked a carpenter to do some for me.



That's why I suggested balsa; you can cut it very precisely with an X-Acto knife.


----------



## WingKKF (Dec 16, 2015)

One trick I can think of requires the use of a ruler and a scientific calculator. You can measure the thickness of your forefinger, the one that normally rests on the spine as you are sharpening, measure the how tall your knife is, plug those numbers is the calculator. The sine of the angle is the thickness of the finger divided by the height of the blade. You can guestimate the angle with your finger under the spine or a percentage of the thickness and adjust from there.


----------



## mark76 (Dec 16, 2015)

Thanks guys. Of course you are completely right, the angle depends on the width of the blade if you use coins, you'd better use an angle meter if you want precise angles and consistency is more important than the angle. But this is meant just to give an idea of what 20 degrees is to someone who starts sharpening, nothing more.


----------



## OneS (Dec 16, 2015)

I am probably the least experienced of anyone who has posted here - but I find an angle cube indispensable as it confirms what I need to do, and I think my consistency is at least ok at the start as a result. Frequent sharpening means only a few strokes with each stone, which I hope means less capacity for 'drifting' from my original angle.


----------



## daveb (Dec 16, 2015)

The quick and dirty I give to new folks is straight up and down is 90, half that is 45 and half that is 22 -good for most German knives. Takes longer to say it than to do it. Helps develop a feel for where knife wants to be sharpened.


----------



## mark76 (Dec 16, 2015)

daveb said:


> The quick and dirty I give to new folks is straight up and down is 90, half that is 45 and half that is 22 -good for most German knives. Takes longer to say it than to do it. Helps develop a feel for where knife wants to be sharpened.



Thanks! That's quick and easy!


----------



## inzite (Dec 16, 2015)

sharpie and feeling it out works really well imo.


----------



## mark76 (Dec 16, 2015)

inzite said:


> sharpie and feeling it out works really well imo.



Thanks!


----------



## _PixelNinja (Dec 16, 2015)

toddnmd said:


> I use the magic marker as well, but it's somewhat different, and less immediate.


If by "less immediate" you mean you have to stop and observe, in my opinion and humble experience it's a very good habit to get into.


----------



## toddnmd (Dec 16, 2015)

_PixelNinja said:


> If by "less immediate" you mean you have to stop and observe, in my opinion and humble experience it's a very good habit to get into.



Stopping and observing is fine. But that's different than immediate (and more direct) experience. I think they are complementary.


----------



## _PixelNinja (Dec 16, 2015)

toddnmd said:


> Stopping and observing is fine. But that's different than immediate (and more direct) experience. I think they are complementary.


I dunno. I don't mean to be rude to anybody but I tend think that people get a bit too hooked up into some of the details of sharpening. As far as I am concerned, the precise angle is not important in and of itself  what is important is the angle makes sense in relation to the knife's geometry, it's usage and how the blade cuts (potential steering, ease of moving though food etc.) 

I most certainly do not have the best skills nor knowledge when it comes to free hand sharpening on these boards, but in my experience, in terms of additional tools, the Sharpie will give me enough feedback to evaluate where I am on the stones. The rest is a matter of taking the knife to some food and seeing how it cuts; returning to the stones to make adjustments, if necessary. 

That's just me though...


----------



## malexthekid (Dec 16, 2015)

krx927 said:


> I tried this when beginning to free hand but it is completely useless. I got way better result when I did not use anything to hold the angle.
> 
> Also completely true what Pensacola Tiger is saying, coins are useless as the angle depends on the width of the knife. I am now also in process of creating triangles from wood. Unfortunately I found out it is impossible to do them with hand saw  Now I asked a carpenter to do some for me.
> 
> I do not need them to get the exact desired angle of the bevel, like a lot of you are saying the angle is not so important, consistency is. For me it is more to help me get the exact same angle for the next sharpening of the same knife. The magic marker trick is not that accurate, wooden triangle will be much better. Perhaps I should try the "bite" trick also next time but I suspect it will not be any more accurate as the magic marker.



Personally i would say you are better off persevering with total freehand and learning to hold the consistent angle. The magic marker trick will purely help you tell whether you are following the bevels of the knife. And how steady you are with your angles.


----------



## Benuser (Dec 16, 2015)

I've cut a few corks to have an idea what angle I'm holding. Precious with microbevels. I find it hard to estimate a 35 degree angle. But otherwise it's just for reference, or by curiosity, if I want to see at which angle it has been sharpened. Best way is still, starting at a very low angle and rising the spine little by little until a burr has been raised on the other side. The biting angle is always a bit higher than the sharpening one.


----------



## gregg (Dec 27, 2015)

When I'm working a blade that is higher than I'm used to, (or lower, for that matter) and especially if it's been done any old which way before, I use this : http://www.visualtrig.com/
to find a place to start from and then control with sharpie/feel.


----------



## clsm1955 (Dec 28, 2015)

When I was starting out I was very nervous about getting the angle right, so I used a protractor and cut some rubber erasers into wedges of various angles, 15, 16, and 20. The rubber was much easier to cut than wood, no need for a miter saw. I put a piece of tape on the bottom of each wedge to keep them from wearing down on the stone. The nice thing about the wedges is that you can keep a consistent angle throughout the length of the blade. Once I developed a little confidence I started going totally free hand.


----------

