# MIzuno Tanrenjo Honyaki Discussion



## toddnmd (Dec 21, 2020)

A recent BST post and ensuing discussion focused on the steels and quenching methods MIzuno uses. 
Starting a new thread here for discussion. 
I picked up a white #2 Honyaki gyuto in Sakai in October. He definitely told me it was water quenched. 
Other thoughts and experiences?


----------



## Midsummer (Dec 21, 2020)

Thanks Todd for the thread. I will be looking into this (as much as one can) from the internet. I suspect you may have to get closer to the forge to get the real low down.

I have two white and one blue and I would really like to know what is up. If I find anything I will report to this thread.


----------



## Barry's Knives (Dec 21, 2020)

toddnmd said:


> A recent BST post and ensuing discussion focused on the steels and quenching methods MIzuno uses.
> Starting a new thread here for discussion.
> I picked up a white #2 Honyaki gyuto in Sakai in October. He definitely told me it was water quenched.
> Other thoughts and experiences?


Maybe a silly question. But is it definitely white 2 and not white 3? As some members have suggested that all mizuno white honyaki are the latter...


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 21, 2020)

Barry's Knives said:


> Maybe a silly question. But is it definitely white 2 and not white 3? As some members have suggested that all mizuno white honyaki are the latter...


This would answer the main focus of this thread. I've yet to see an example of mizu W#3 (haven't looked too hard though)


----------



## esoo (Dec 21, 2020)

I cannot speak for Mizuno honyaki, but when I've seen other makes White Honyaki, oil quenched have been White 3, and water quenched have been White 2.

It is also interesting to note that at JCK, it is carefully written as "White Steel" for the honyaki and no number attached to it (from what I've been able to see).

While I have no idea as to the performance difference, generally abrura-honyaki is cheaper than mizu-honyaki from what I've seen, so this leads to questions if you don't know what you are getting (if you care about price/resale)


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 21, 2020)

esoo said:


> generally abrura-honyaki is cheaper than mizu-honyaki


Lower failure rate would account for the price differential between the different quench techniques.


----------



## captaincaed (Dec 21, 2020)

Sometimes it's both. One trick I heard is to start the quench in water and finish in warm Parks50 (for lower viscosity and a more even quench). Allows the hamon to pop a bit, then allows for a more relaxed cooling. It's a whole lot more technical than that, but what would you label this knife? Water? Oil?
How much does it matter?

Source: Recent Knifetalk podcast (I think the Dec7 or Dec14 episodes)


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 21, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> Sometimes it's both. One trick I heard is to start the quench in water and finish in warm Parks50 (for lower viscosity and a more even quench). Allows the hamon to pop a bit, then allows for a more relaxed cooling. It's a whole lot more technical than that, but what would you label this knife? Water? Oil?
> How much does it matter?


Guess it depends which part of the process water or oil, contributes most to the characteristics of the finished blade. Hardness>Aesthetics


----------



## Barry's Knives (Dec 21, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> Sometimes it's both. One trick I heard is to start the quench in water and finish in warm Parks50 (for lower viscosity and a more even quench). Allows the hamon to pop a bit, then allows for a more relaxed cooling. It's a whole lot more technical than that, but what would you label this knife? Water? Oil?
> How much does it matter?


Well in terms of it mattering I just think its an interesting topic. For what its worth I've heard that ikedas white 3 oil quench is many peoples favourite honyaki. On the flip side maxim from jns prefers the feeling of stiffness attained from blue honyaki and opines that water quenching adds to that and gives a crisper feeling on the stones. I think that by working out what process is being used it gives people better insight on what they're buying, especially as many people have to essential buy 'blind' from online sellers. Whats more, different characteristics will align more to different people's interests. Some might really want a hamon that pops, others edge retention, others sharpenability or the feedback on stones. Working out what metal and what process is being used informs all of that.


----------



## TSF415 (Dec 21, 2020)




----------



## Chuckles (Dec 21, 2020)

It seems to me that the white #3 conversation has started along side the introduction of the KS line. They have been selling white honyaki for a long time. This is a statement that all white honyaki from Mizuno throughout history have been #3?


----------



## TSF415 (Dec 21, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> It seems to me that the white #3 conversation has started along side the introduction of the KS line. They have been selling white honyaki for a long time. This is a statement that all white honyaki from Mizuno throughout history have been #3?



Na, you right you right. Someone should ask mizuno. I’m sure that question and the quench question can both be answered.


----------



## TSF415 (Dec 21, 2020)

If they were made with white#2 before, it would also give jck some slack because they just never got around to changing the listings. A slightly less offensive misrepresentation of the product?!?


----------



## Midsummer (Dec 21, 2020)

From a thread I started a few years ago about W3 being oil quenched and W2 being water quenched:




JBroida said:


> Not true at all... all of them can be oil or water quenched








Honyaki, Mizu- Honyaki and Abura- Honyaki


Honyaki has been defined as a mono steel knife differentially hardened by a Japanese master (correct me if I am wrong please). Mizu- implies water quenched Abura- implies oil quenched If a maker says Honyaki but does not specify Mizu, is it therefore Abura? Based on the advertising it should...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## toddnmd (Dec 22, 2020)

Barry's Knives said:


> Maybe a silly question. But is it definitely white 2 and not white 3? As some members have suggested that all mizuno white honyaki are the latter...


Not a silly question, as the answer from the man himself is that my knife is White #3.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Dec 22, 2020)

Bought mine in Sakai from the man himself in October 2019. I haven’t even asked because I thought it was W#2...


----------



## captaincaed (Dec 22, 2020)

So, those who use their Mizuno white steel.honyaki, how do you like them?


----------



## daddy yo yo (Dec 22, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> So, those who use their Mizuno white steel.honyaki, how do you like them?


My take is that they’re overrated... I keep mine only out of sentimentality...


----------



## Midsummer (Dec 22, 2020)

I like my Mizuno honyaki’s quite a bit. Nice knives. They are definitely work horses. The edge retention is good. They feel good in the hand. 

But I am nothing more than a humble Home cook.


----------



## captaincaed (Dec 22, 2020)

I have a different honyaki I'm similarly sentimental.about. But it cracks sweet potatoes like a thunder clap.


----------



## toddnmd (Dec 23, 2020)

MIzuno Tanrenjo said all of their white steel honyakis are made from White #3 and are water quenched. 
A number of retailers’ websites say they’re white #2. And I think more used to . . .


----------



## RDalman (Dec 23, 2020)

Does water additives and temp matter to definition also ? I think you should settle for if it's good it's good.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Dec 27, 2020)

daddy yo yo said:


> My take is that they’re overrated... I keep mine only out of sentimentality...


That’s mine, White:


----------



## captaincaed (Dec 27, 2020)

They don't exactly ghost thru onions do they.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Dec 27, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> They don't exactly ghost thru onions do they.


No, they don’t. I’d say mine qualifies as a middleweight. It’s no laser, it’s no workhorse... 

What’s cool about them is that they have a cool visible hamon, and they’re available pretty much any time.


----------



## lemeneid (Dec 27, 2020)

Would get a Miz, if it were at least 50/50 ground


----------



## daddy yo yo (Dec 29, 2020)

Took out mine today:











I can see why someone said it was a workhorse. Compared to a Watanabe or Mazaki KU, it feels more nimble though...


----------



## moderncooking (Mar 23, 2021)

Barry's Knives said:


> Maybe a silly question. But is it definitely white 2 and not white 3? As some members have suggested that all mizuno white honyaki are the latter...


Hey @Barry's Knives from the price list they are all white 3. I am thinking about doing a private sale for KKF members. If anyone is interested I will gladly send pricing.


----------



## Barry's Knives (Mar 24, 2021)

I would certainly be very interested!


----------



## Chicagohawkie (Mar 24, 2021)

Had interest in Mizuno knives when they were made by the previous generation master and when they were 50 percent less. Should have grabbed a blue 1 sumi when I had the chance.


----------



## panda (Mar 24, 2021)

I miss my miz white honyaki  too bad it was too short, damn Sakai sizing..


----------



## moderncooking (Mar 25, 2021)

Barry's Knives said:


> I would certainly be very interested!



Hey @Barry's Knives drop me an email and I will send you over the pricing [email protected]


----------



## ian (Mar 25, 2021)

moderncooking said:


> Hey @Barry's Knives drop me an email and I will send you over the pricing [email protected]



Btw, why are you only distributing prices via email instead of posting them?


----------



## moderncooking (Mar 25, 2021)

Hey @ian, 

Basically Mizuno Tanrenjo have been chasing us to buy some knives from them for awhile and with the imminent price increase we decided to pull the trigger. Normally we would buy knives and when they arrive we photograph them and list them on our shop. In this case we decided to offer the KKF members the opportunity to preorder with us and make sure they secure the knives they would like before the 20% increase kicks in on May 1st.

I would list the pricing directly here, but there are close to 400 different knives on the list and that is a lot of prices.


----------



## ian (Mar 25, 2021)

Ah, I was expecting that you’d just post a link to the spreadsheet (if you host it on your site, it’s easy to embed links here), and that the reason you weren’t doing that was due to a request from Mizuno or something. But whatever, hope you get some takers! Seems like a good deal.


----------



## lemeneid (Mar 25, 2021)

moderncooking said:


> Hey @ian,
> 
> Basically Mizuno Tanrenjo have been chasing us to buy some knives from them for awhile and with the imminent price increase we decided to pull the trigger. Normally we would buy knives and when they arrive we photograph them and list them on our shop. In this case we decided to offer the KKF members the opportunity to preorder with us and make sure they secure the knives they would like before the 20% increase kicks in on May 1st.
> 
> I would list the pricing directly here, but there are close to 400 different knives on the list and that is a lot of prices.


Is there a Miz with a lefty friendly grind? I'll be interested.


----------



## moderncooking (Mar 25, 2021)

ian said:


> Ah, I was expecting that you’d just post a link to the spreadsheet (if you host it on your site, it’s easy to embed links here), and that the reason you weren’t doing that was due to a request from Mizuno or something. But whatever, hope you get some takers! Seems like a good deal.


@ian I suppose I could have done that. I haven't done a preorder like this before. I keep that in mind for next time.


----------



## moderncooking (Mar 25, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> Is there a Miz with a lefty friendly grind? I'll be interested.



Hi @lemeneid I have asked about a 50/50 and I am hoping to hear back tomorrow about that. So, stay tuned I guess.


----------



## Chips (Mar 31, 2021)

I didn’t realize this thread got bumped recently, I was searching directly for it. Anyway, I’m eager to start using my Miz Honyaki (I bought the one in the B&S that started this dialogue) and I’m likely getting it back from a maker this week. Getting a custom handle, the choil reground and polished for a lefty, the spine rounded etc. I’ll post more pics when it’s finished.


----------



## Chips (Mar 31, 2021)

Rounded choil on the left side, along with a slight reprofile.


----------



## Chips (Apr 13, 2021)

Finished.

For a KS style gyuto, the original shape didn't resemble one much, but with the changes I requested with the knife included along with the new handle was to round the spine, round the choil to a left handed bias, and the blade from the tip to about 3 inches back have been slightly tapered but it's almost unnoticeable. Before he altered the tip, he also took out a slight high spot along the spine just forward of the kanji. 

The wood is Mexican Kingwood. The balance point shifted back to the last kanji and feels great in hand now. I haven't used it yet, but I imagine at some point I'll send it out to be thinned, it's still quite portly.







I really love the warmth and evenness of this wood!


----------



## lemeneid (Apr 13, 2021)

Chips said:


> Finished.
> 
> For a KS style gyuto, the original shape didn't resemble one much, but with the changes I requested with the knife included along with the new handle was to round the spine, round the choil to a left handed bias, and the blade from the tip to about 3 inches back have been slightly tapered but it's almost unnoticeable. Before he altered the tip, he also took out a slight high spot along the spine just forward of the kanji.
> 
> ...


Looks really nice. Do you happen to have a pic of the choil? Would like to see how a lefty friendly Miz looks like.


----------



## Chips (Apr 13, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> Looks really nice. Do you happen to have a pic of the choil? Would like to see how a lefty friendly Miz looks like.



Glad you asked! I can re-shoot it if you'd like.

The grind really appears 50/50 to me. Just a workhorse.


----------



## osakajoe (Apr 16, 2021)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Had interest in Mizuno knives when they were made by the previous generation master and when they were 50 percent less. Should have grabbed a blue 1 sumi when I had the chance.



this.

Probably because they were still doing their own production and using their forge back in the day. Now I’ve only ever seen it used for performances and when tourists walk in and he starts “making” your knife.


----------



## Chips (May 6, 2021)

It’s worth adding a better picture of the original grind before I send it off to be thinned. It’s quite thick and concave.


----------

