# Thoughts on using 210mm and under knives for prep



## skewed

Most days I really need to crush through a lot of prep and mostly grab a 270 and sometimes a 240 but on lighter days I enjoy using shorter gyutos. I have a fairly nice quiver to draw from because I am more apt to enjoy my job due to the variety of knives I own. I know that it is more practical and expedient to use longer knives but I really enjoy getting out a nice 210. They feel so small and nimble and are fun to see how capable they are. Heck, sometimes I will even stick with a 150 petty to do a lot of prep with. I think this has really helped improve my skills with these smaller knives.

Anyone else grab for shorter knives from time to time?

Cheers,
rj


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## labor of love

I own 210mm gyutos from time to time but honestly it's out of necessity as a cramped work environment demands it. I never understood the 210mm suji/line knife craze either(and I tried). So far, I tend to favor a variety of "240mm" gyutos for most of my work, thought the actual blade length can vary from 230-250mm. If I am going to use a 210mm Gyuto I need it to be a thin blade like wakui/kochi/ginga/kagekiyo etc etc...smaller knife better at detail/finesse stuff. Bigger knife for more power/strength.


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## skewed

labor of love said:


> I own 210mm gyutos from time to time but honestly it's out of necessity as a cramped work environment demands it. I never understood the 210mm suji/line knife craze either(and I tried). So far, I tend to favor a variety of "240mm" gyutos for most of my work, thought the actual blade length can vary from 230-250mm. If I am going to use a 210mm Gyuto I need it to be a thin blade like wakui/kochi/ginga/kagekiyo etc etc...smaller knife better at detail/finesse stuff. Bigger knife for more power/strength.



Interesting. I don't own very many 240s; I mostly go for 270s because 240s feel too similar to a 270 and aren't as potent as a 270. I think my enjoyment comes mostly from the vast difference in feeling when using a drastically smaller knife. I forces me to really focus on technique rather than the, as you say, power/strength of a larger heavier knife. Variety helps to keep me interested in largely mundane/rote tasks.

BTW- I too tried a few 210 pettys but a gyuto is so much more usable.

Cheers,
rj


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## cschoedler

Kind of depends on the task for me. I've had a few 210 gyutos but wasn't a fan. 

I have a 210 petty I use for a lot of things though. I reach for it 9 times out of 10 over my 150 petty. 

I don't consider it a replacement for a gyuto though. It just doesn't give enough knuckle clearance.


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## bkultra

I have tried a few 210s and find the lack of length doesn't allow for a useable flat spot. Infact I prefer my 240s to run long, 250-255mm, for this exact reason. If I had a smaller kitchen/board my views might change.


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## panda

I never enjoy using a 210, only do so out of necessity.


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## daveb

I like a 210 at home where I have time to enjoy a knife more. 

At work it's making big stuff into little stuff right damn now. 240 - 270 is my go to.


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## Mucho Bocho

For me the length of a knife is determined by ingredient and quantity of said ingredient. Pro cooks (which I'm not) usually work with much larger qualities. If I'm mincing a shallot or single onion, I'm going for a 210 or smaller, maybe 165 bunka... but I might grab a 150 Toyama petty or a 180 Kato WH petty for a couple of cloves of garlic. If I'm processing say a cabbage, I'll grab the DT ITK 240. One I will say is that I prefer the gyuto profile. 

In gyuto lengths I have:
150 Toyama
170 Dalman
174 Carter
180 Shig
198 Kono
205 Yusuke
215 Shig
215 Kato WH
215 DT ITK
228 Kono
242 Kato WH
250 DT ITK


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## skewed

Well, it isn't too much of a surprise to me that I am a bit strange. This week I used a 206 standard Kato and a 210 Toyama for most tasks at work but did have to bring out a couple 270s when pushed. I suppose my philosophy could be summed up by:

Variety's the very spice of life, that gives it all it's flavour. -William Cowper

Cheers,
rj


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## Brucewml

Depends really. If you facing large amount of prep specially using knives. When I worked in production kitchen it happens a lot. 20kg potatos 20 watermelons etc. lol Maybe you need a large gyuto for main knife. But for mostly al cartel style or lot more multi task prep. 210-220will be main knife for me. In the end only thing is which one you could done your task faster. Lol


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Not pro but... What always irks me about even 210s: Changing the direction you're cutting in feels awkward, and so does cutting parallel to the counter front for any length of time... and you have to pay even more attention to not double cut stuff that is elsewhere on the board.. 


I can see a huge knife being of help *mincing* 20 shallots... is it gonna help you brunoise 20 shallots (maybe by making everyone realize it is a bad idea interfering with your shallot cutting since you make a larger blood circle)? Or is the pro take more of a "brunoised shallots are too time consuming, adapt your recipe to minced"?


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## paulraphael

I feel that I only get the advantages of using a 270 sometimes, but I'm never aware of any disadvantages. It might partly be that I'm using a laser that's very light, and that measures slightly shorter than 270. But it's also because I learned decent board management skills, so I never have food in the way of what I'm doing. I feel as precise brunoising a single clove of garlic with the 270 as I do with a 210 or a petty; the length doesn't feel clumsy.

I've staged in a kitchen where the the workspace was cramped and the cutting boards really narrow. Maybe 9" across. That's the one place I'd wished for a shorter knife.


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## labor of love

paulraphael said:


> I feel that I only get the advantages of using a 270 sometimes, but I'm never aware of any disadvantages. It might partly be that I'm using a laser that's very light, and that measures slightly shorter than 270. But it's also because I learned decent board management skills, so I never have food in the way of what I'm doing. I feel as precise brunoising a single clove of garlic with the 270 as I do with a 210 or a petty; the length doesn't feel clumsy.
> 
> I've staged in a kitchen where the the workspace was cramped and the cutting boards really narrow. Maybe 9" across. That's the one place I'd wished for a shorter knife.



Very good point. Yeah, if weight isn't issue then it makes sense(220grams or so for me). There is a knife I want pretty badly right now but only the 270 is instock, you might've convinced me to just get it.


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## Mucho Bocho

Video Paul? Sometimes your claims leave me in awe. 



paulraphael said:


> I feel as precise brunoising a single clove of garlic with the 270 as I do with a 210 or a petty; the length doesn't feel clumsy.


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## daveb

I've done bruinisse with a 270. Would not want to do prep portions, even a 9 pan, with one.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@paulraphael just curious, would a knife with a more extreme height-length ratio - say a 270mm fuguhiki - still feel comfortable to you?


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## labor of love

The main difference to me with veg cuts is if you prefer the curve of the edge before the tip closer to your hand or farther from your hand. You will likely prefer whatever length you are accustomed to using. Just switching from a 230mm blade to a 250mm blade throws me off.


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## panda

brunoise shallot 270 gyuto is no problem so long as the tip is sufficiently thin, that's the important part not the length of the blade for precision work. if you need tighter control, just choke up on the grip.


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## spoiledbroth

Can use in place of the petty. 180 gyuto nice for this too. But not for prep only for line ala minute or details work. That's it. Turn upside down and use the back of the tip for cutting dough


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## paulraphael

Mucho Bocho said:


> Video Paul? Sometimes your claims leave me in awe.




I meant to write "mince," not brunoise. But I use a 270 to brunoise other things. I didn't think that was unusual (choke up a bit, as Panda said). Anyway, I'm talking about how it feels. Not saying I'm a brain surgeon. If you really want a video of me cutting garlic, I'll try to oblige.


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## paulraphael

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @paulraphael just curious, would a knife with a more extreme height-length ratio - say a 270mm fuguhiki - still feel comfortable to you?



Never used a fuguhiki or similar, so I assume not.


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## mhpr262

In this video Marco Pierre White is using what looks like a 100 or 120mm petty for making mirepoix for Ragu Bolognese. Had me really scratching my head when I saw it. But who am I to tell MPW how to do his job. So, I guess you should just use whatever works best for you ....

[video=youtube;6rvqS0NGkfg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rvqS0NGkfg[/video]


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## Benuser

Shorter knives have a much shorter contact area with the board, and get dull so much faster.


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## mhpr262

Absolutely zero knuckle clearance would annoy me lot more. If you pause the video at 0:07/0:08 you can see how awkwardly he has to hold the knife. I wonder if the producers or the Knorr bosses had told him to use a smaller, less "intimidating" looking knife than a fullsize chef's knife for the video? Or maybe Marco just neglected to bring his own knives to the video shoot and they grabbed the first knife from the knife drawer of the studio cafeteria.


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## labor of love

mhpr262 said:


> Absolutely zero knuckle clearance would annoy me lot more. If you pause the video at 0:07/0:08 you can see how awkwardly he has to hold the knife. I wonder if the producers or the Knorr bosses had told him to use a smaller, less "intimidating" looking knife than a fullsize chef's knife for the video? Or maybe Marco just neglected to bring his own knives to the video shoot and they grabbed the first knife from the knife drawer of the studio cafeteria.


There's a knife block sitting in the table. I'm wondering if he actually used that little knife for all the prep work. Those carrots look too nice to have been cut on a board with a petty.


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## easy13

Man, I see a bunch of videos with old school heads working with 150s, filets, seen a video where Raymond Blanc was going hard with what seemed to be a boning knife. In those old MPW videos from the BBC show, he was always using some non "chef knife" blade. There are a bunch of Pepin videos where he is going at it with a 150 or 120.


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## Chef_

ive used 210s and have never enjoyed them. I feel like you have to work the knife harder when cutting vegetables. Bigger knives have more "muscle" and allow you to simply steer the knife while letting it do the work.


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## labor of love

Chef_ said:


> ive used 210s and have never enjoyed them. I feel like you have to work the knife harder when cutting vegetables. Bigger knives have more "muscle" and allow you to simply steer the knife while letting it do the work.



+1. My idea of a small knife is a 240mm that runs short in length(230mm or so). Atleast as when were talking about gyutos.


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## Salty dog

I use this six inch gyuto/santoku hybrid at home. Nice because I have less room and smaller board. Wasn't cutting it at work.





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## Chef_

labor of love said:


> +1. My idea of a small knife is a 240mm that runs short in length(230mm or so). Atleast as when were talking about gyutos.



my favorite knife to use is my 300mm masamoto that runs long, blade length is probably about 315mm. But that thing is a giant so its impractical to use on the line.

I keep a 240 on the line, a utility knife, and a honesuki which actually works really well slicing cooked protein, almost like a mini suji.


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## Matus

As a home cook I either use 240, or jump down to 165 or 180 - both tall enough for a board work


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## Benuser

Chef_ said:


> ive used 210s and have never enjoyed them. I feel like you have to work the knife harder when cutting vegetables. Bigger knives have more "muscle" and allow you to simply steer the knife while letting it do the work.



My feeling as well, never been able to understand why, though.


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## Chef_

Salty dog said:


> I use this six inch gyuto/santoku hybrid at home. Nice because I have less room and smaller board. Wasn't cutting it at work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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is that a funayuki?


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## turbochef422

I always buy 210's and never end up using them so I sell them. The only one I've kept and use almost daily is a Harner 215mm line knife. It cuts everything well, saves space on the line, is a bit taller at the heel then other line knives, between that and the grind it's the only "line knife" that's worked for me besides 240mm gyutos.


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## nepastovus

I use 210 gyuto as a line knife. For prep bigger is better, mainly reach for 270, 250 =}


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## chefcomesback

I have kept buying 210s in the past , thinking I will use during service if not I will use at home, none of them replaced my large gyutos (270+) at work or a petty ( 150) at home 
As long as it has a good distal taper and thin tip I will use my gyuto for any produce prep


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## preizzo

Bought many 210 gyuto, santoku 180 - 165, nakiri 165-180,but never really used them a lot specially in prep time. Longer knives work better on prep shift and petty or slim gyutos on the line.


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## Mucho Bocho

This is an interesting thread to me. Like many of you, have lots of gyutos (14 to be exact), a Bunka and a few sized pettys. Without a doubt, my G get the most use, but because each blade is so unique, I match the G-knife with the ingredient about to be prepped. However, I'm a home cook and work on a 14" X 14" end grain. My Kato 240 WH is my most unused knife, next to the DT ITK 250. 

I agree that larger knives have more weight and blade length to work on, but their also not as nimble as smaller knives. Also, technique plays a big part to how your knives perform. My Dalman 172mm G with wicked taper and tip will put a whoop a$$ on any ingredient under that length. 

For me its all about pairing the right knife with ingredient. Kinda sad that my Shig 188 G is only used for mushrooms, but their really well sliced mushrooms (HA)


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## Lars

Started with a 300mm carbon sab. After that a 270mm carbonext, then 240mm Asai and now my 210mm carbon Itinomonn is my favorite! Fits very well my meager skills and small kitchen.. Also enjoy my 190 Bunka and 150 Petty.. Really wan't a 300mm+ suji though..

Lars


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## GorillaGrunt

At work I tend to use the biggest knife that will fit in the space available to speed things along and make the fewest cuts. However, our head day cook uses a 6" Miyabi as his main knife and doesn't seem to need a bigger one very often for whatever amount of prep. I'd guess that learning to process large amounts of bigger product with a small knife is just like learning to do fine precision work with a big knife.


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## Chef_

GorillaGrunt said:


> At work I tend to use the biggest knife that will fit in the space available to speed things along and make the fewest cuts. However, our head day cook uses a 6" Miyabi as his main knife and doesn't seem to need a bigger one very often for whatever amount of prep. I'd guess that learning to process large amounts of bigger product with a small knife is just like learning to do fine precision work with a big knife.



I think it depends on what you learn on too. I learned my knife skills on a 10 inch knife , so bigger knives feel more comfortable to me.


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## QCDawg

Shibata 150 just grabbed the small prep role with alacrity. Made me bumb up to a 240mm when I need more. Made roast beef sandwiches and supremed oranges with the 150petty today. Really versatile. Could have used KS 165.. but it just doesn't like the board or i think, citrus. Any bigger needs, the 240 kono is waiting. New 210 suki Zdp hairline is waiting for a happy buyer at BST for a good deal..


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## Salty dog

Chef_ said:


> is that a funayuki?



I'd have to research what a funayuki is.


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## mise_en_place

Salty dog said:


> I'd have to research what a funayuki is.



Salty,

That Rader knife is unique! Any story behind it, or it was up for sale and you picked it up?


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## Salty dog

Saw it for sale on a website and bought it. I don't if you can still buy a Radar off the shelf these days. You could then.

It's a nice little knife. Perfect for me at home.


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## QCDawg

I find it interesting that one of the best chefs in my hometown? He is a good friend. But he is a relative novice when it comes to J knives . He is presently using a 210 mm MAC. He loves it. I showed him my arsenal and he thought my Kono 240 was very sharp very thin and very light but way too big (long). His restaurant kitchen is small but not cramped... I think I have talked him into trying a Shibata 210 Ktip gyuto. Bet he's gonna love r2


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## labor of love

I miss my Mac Pro all the time.



QCDawg said:


> I find it interesting that one of the best chefs in my hometown? He is a good friend. But he is a relative novice when it comes to J knives . He is presently using a 210 mm MAC. He loves it. I showed him my arsenal and he thought my Kono 240 was very sharp very thin and very light but way too big (long). His restaurant kitchen is small but not cramped... I think I have talked him into trying a Shibata 210 Ktip gyuto. Bet he's gonna love r2


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## Lars

labor of love said:


> I miss my Mac Pro all the time.



Everytime I use my Mac Pro paring I dream of something else. Could imagine the chef/gyuto is different though..

Lars


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## labor of love

Mac Pro gyutos have a great profile/handle//grind for the price. I would love a carbon version.


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## GorillaGrunt

I started with a Mac Pro and I loved it. Then I learned a little more about proper J-knives and wasn't too into the Mac anymore. Then I learned a little more about sharpening, and about cutting with J-knives, and I like it again.


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## tomsch

I'm just a home cook but I have only one 210mm. It's a strange size since I always reach for a 240mm for general cutting. I also have a smaller 180 that I use for a utility knife and a smaller paring knife. The 210mm that I have I only keep around because potatoes and starchy vegetables absolutely will not stick to that blade. If it were not for that I would not have a 210mm.


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