# Slowest wearing medium grit synthetic?



## spaceconvoy (Mar 1, 2021)

I'm getting tired of my muddy synthetic stones, and looking for something that will stay flat a very long time. Something in the 500 - 2000 range, a first stone for typical maintenance sharpening before moving on to natural finishers. I know higher grit stones will wear more slowly per stroke, but I'm interested in the wear rate relative to cutting power. Another way of looking at it: what will remove the most metal per mm of stone thickness?


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## Checkpure (Mar 1, 2021)

What do you currently have?


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Mar 1, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I'm getting tired of my muddy synthetic stones, and looking for something that will stay flat a very long time. Something in the 500 - 2000 range, a first stone for typical maintenance sharpening before moving on to natural finishers. I know higher grit stones will wear more slowly per stroke, but I'm interested in the wear rate relative to cutting power. Another way of looking at it: what will remove the most metal per mm of stone thickness?



Vitrified diamond. Done and dusted.


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 1, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> What do you currently have?


JNS 800 and King Neo 800, both of which are actually muddy and I don't use much anymore. But even my GS 500 and SP 1500 feel too muddy now. I haven't tried other Shaptons, but from what I can gather these are the muddiest stones of each line, at least among the middle grits.



nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Vitrified diamond. Done and dusted.


True.... I'm hesitant because I know they'll need flattening eventually and then what? I'm kinda a sticker for stone flatness, and don't like the idea of living with a very slightly dished diamond stone. I'd rather have something I could flatten with my Atoma 400 without needing another contraption. And given how thin most of them are, will they really outlast a traditional synthetic?


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Mar 1, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> JNS 800 and King Neo 800, both of which are actually muddy and I don't use much anymore. But even my GS 500 and SP 1500 feel too muddy now. I haven't tried other Shaptons, but from what I can gather these are the muddiest stones of each line, at least among the middle grits.
> 
> 
> True.... I'm hesitant because I know they'll need flattening eventually and then what? I'm kinda a sticker for stone flatness, and don't like the idea of living with a very slightly dished diamond stone. I'd rather have something I could flatten with my Atoma 400 without needing another contraption. And given how thin most of them are, will they really outlast a traditional synthetic?



The gesshin 800 300A, my mistake comes with a flattening disc should you need it. The 800 does not. Yes they truly will outlast traditional synthetic. I think I remember @JBroida saying/writing that his lasted many years of professional use.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Mar 1, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> The gesshin 800 300A, my mistake comes with a flattening disc should you need it. The 800 does not. Yes they truly will outlast traditional synthetic. I think I remember @JBroida saying/writing that his lasted many years of professional use.



If you buy 3, you can flatten them all against each other


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 1, 2021)

If I buy three I can flatten them against the concrete sidewalk I'll be sleeping on. Or maybe that would just flatten the sidewalk instead


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## cotedupy (Mar 1, 2021)

I have a Norton combi oilstone that I've used extensively for stock removal and general repairs, and it struck me when I was using it a few evenings ago that I've never actually had to flatten it. F*** knows what it's made out of, doesn't slurry at all, but does a good job.

(I assume this kind of stone is made from just completely different stuff to the ceramic synthetic stones we're normally discussing?)

It's probably a smidge coarser than you're after, I think I read somewhere it's about 150/400, but there's presumably something similar further up too...


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 1, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I have a Norton combi oilstone that I've used extensively for stock removal and general repairs, and it struck me when I was using it a few evenings ago that I've never actually had to flatten it. F*** knows what it's made out of, doesn't slurry at all, but does a good job.
> 
> (I assume this kind of stone is made from just completely different stuff to the ceramic synthetic stones we're normally discussing?)
> 
> It's probably a smidge coarser than you're after, I think I read somewhere it's about 150/400, but there's presumably something similar further up too...


I have Crystolon coarse and medium stones, I think they're SiC. I remember they were decent out of the box with oil, but I only used them that way once. I heard you can boil out the oil with soapy water and use windex instead, but they don't work very well now. Maybe it's less of an issue with carbon, but my stainless clogs them pretty quickly without oil. It's a nice idea but oil stones are too messy for my taste.


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## cotedupy (Mar 1, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I have Crystolon coarse and medium stones, I think they're SiC. I remember they were decent out of the box with oil, but I only used them that way once. I heard you can boil out the oil with soapy water and use windex instead, but they don't work very well now. Maybe it's less of an issue with carbon, but my stainless clogs them pretty quickly without oil. It's a nice idea but oil stones are too messy for my taste.



Yeah I can certainly understand that! I never much liked using mine cos of how dirty it was - it'd just ooze oil everywhere in the Aus heat. And I'd have to scrub it with dishwashing liquid every time I wanted to use it. It seems now to have lost pretty much all of the oil it was impregnated with, and I just use with a little bit of water now. It still feels ok (ish), works great, and doesn't clog... I'm actually rather fond of it. Though I haven't done any stainless on it since getting all the oil out.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 1, 2021)

Crystolon stones (gray ones) are SiC and the India stones are AlO. Some gray stones are AlO as well but I'm not sure Norton ever put them out.

Oddly enough, I don't find oil stones all that messier than water stones. In fact, in terms of mess, I'd say they are less. I place a paper towel under the stone when I place it down into the holder and that catches any drips when I spread it around. They don't need much oil and I find people often use too much. Most of it should soak into the stone.

Now, they're a little more involved for clean up. A little oil rubbed in when done can lift a fair amount of swarf out and then some hot water and dish soap will clean them up.

If your Nortons aren't working they are either glazed and/or clogged. Not using oil can induce both conditions. For clogging, some Bar Keeper's Friend and a toothbrush can go a long way. If they're glazed, that's more work.

Used enough, they will dish and need to be flattened but they tend to cut so fast that they seem to last a long time before that's an issue.


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## Bolek (Mar 2, 2021)

Two options :


Spyderco ceramic medium and then fine. No mud. No visible wear.
Vitrified diamond from Practical Sharpening in 1k or 2k grit. Deadboxhero said in : Diamond stones“Flattening should be done with all diamond waterstones regardless of bonding with a SiC or AlOx abrasive powder on a granite tile or plate glass or a SiC stone flattener. All you want to do is cut down the bonding without negativity impacting the diamond/cbn you're paying for.

It is erroneous to use a diamond plate to flatten since you're damaging the diamond grains in both the stone and the plate wasting both resources.

Dishing is so little on some stones that some folks will feel like they do not dish.”
My 2k is little bit over 6mm thick (normal ones are 5mm) and with diamond you reduce the wear (so stay flat longer) if you reduce pressure.


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## M1k3 (Mar 2, 2021)

Shapton Pro 2k?


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## ModRQC (Mar 2, 2021)

The obvious: SP1K. If you never tried it you'll be surprised: doesn't feel coarser than its grit, but removes the efficiency of "true" JNS scale 800. Doesn't dish - in sharpening. Dishes little - in polishing, but not a good stone for it. You'll create more stigmata on it setting an edge bevel or polishing a relief - I mean, narrower area with coarser work ultimately. Yet it won't loose much of anything out of any of that when you'll flatten it again. It's my oldest stone. It was definitely used abundantly, even more than my NP800 which also got used quite a lot. I don't even see myself getting through half of it.

NP800 of itself fits some requirements but since you seem to imply minimal involvement, mud, dishing for a good ratio of speed, SP1K just blows a good deal of other out of the water.







If you've soaked here a bit, you probably know SPs are rated 15mm thick but rather make a good 16-17mm when new. You can see here I left some space before 0, and some space after 13mm... Basically, still 14mm left minus a hair. It's flatten my SP5K and my NP800, long ago when I didn't have anything better. It's been flattened itself with SP320 and Atoma 140mm countless times. It sharpened countless times. It polished about 3 times. It set bevels and done polishing/maintenance of relief bevels. I squarely tried to thin out of it - sheer thinning - once. Surprisingly effective but no, not fast enough at all.

Edit: Ah yes, it's what I like to call a tame edge, but more obvious would be to say: nondescript. Rather "poor" of any abilities special of itself. Rather marvelous in a progression - whatever follows will imprint its own character fast without any "lingering effect". In all my experience, I now consider such thing gold - to a progression where you want the next step(s) to occupy all the space. Fast and oblivious. One splash done for an edge, even without any previous rinse or help.


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## kingdingelling (Mar 2, 2021)

+1 for Shapton Pro 1k + 2k

It's also a good combination with your Atoma 400 for flattening. Especially the 1k has strong sharpening power but I won't go directly on fine natural stones. Normally I'm using a Naniwa Pro 3000 before.


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 2, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Shapton Pro 2k?





ModRQC said:


> The obvious: SP1K.





kingdingelling said:


> +1 for Shapton Pro 1k + 2k



These would seem like the best candidates among traditional water stones. I actually have an Pro 2000 arriving tomorrow, but the 1000 seems to be sold out everywhere.

Maybe there aren't any better alternatives for what I'm looking for. The thread comparing Naniwa Pro to Chosera made me wonder about the newer Gouken Arata version, and if one 800 is more wear resistant than the others. But I'm guessing the difference is pretty small.

The new Debados are marketed as more wear resistant but it sounds like they're still a bit muddy. The Juuma series seems promising, if there were more reviews I might be convinced to get past my distaste for soakers and take a chance on them.


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## Michi (Mar 2, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> The obvious: SP1K. If you never tried it you'll be surprised: doesn't feel coarser than its grit, but removes the efficiency of "true" JNS scale 800.


The first time I tried a Shapton Pro 1000, the first thought was "that feels a lot coarser than a Cerax 1000 or King 1000."

My gut feeling is that the Shapton Pro 1000 is a little coarse for its grit rating, more like an 800-grit stone.


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## kingdingelling (Mar 2, 2021)

Michi said:


> The first time I tried a Shapton Pro 1000, the first thought was "that feels a lot coarser than a Cerax 1000 or King 1000."
> 
> My gut feeling is that the Shapton Pro 1000 is a little coarse for its grit rating, more like an 800-grit stone.



I'm with you. But it is very fast and you can use it for almost any steel.


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## Michi (Mar 2, 2021)

kingdingelling said:


> I'm with you. But it is very fast and you can use it for almost any steel.


Yes. Nothing wrong with the stone at all. Cuts fast. Feel is not fantastic (a little rough), but not bad either. And feedback is good.

Just a little coarser than its nominal grit rating, I think.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 2, 2021)

Or maybe the glass 1 or 2k. I mean, I've heard they dish remarkably slow. 

If you really really don't like dishing you could always buy the spiderco medium ceramic like someone suggested. I've heard they wear extremely slow. 

Myself, I dont mind dishing or muddiness to a certain degree. (Maybe the cerax 320 is a touch to much of both). Its part of why I like water stones (well not the dishing).


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## cotedupy (Mar 2, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Crystolon stones (gray ones) are SiC and the India stones are AlO. Some gray stones are AlO as well but I'm not sure Norton ever put them out.
> 
> Oddly enough, I don't find oil stones all that messier than water stones. In fact, in terms of mess, I'd say they are less. I place a paper towel under the stone when I place it down into the holder and that catches any drips when I spread it around. They don't need much oil and I find people often use too much. Most of it should soak into the stone.
> 
> ...



Just been to check (I still have the polystyrene case thing)... mine's a Coarse n Fine KS100 SiC. Really does its job well tbh. Very cheap, I've used _a lot_ and never flattened, and mine hasn't clogged as of yet.

When I was talking about not liking the mess... I don't add any oil ever, but try having one that's already impregnated with oil during summer in Australia


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## ModRQC (Mar 3, 2021)

Michi said:


> The first time I tried a Shapton Pro 1000, the first thought was "that feels a lot coarser than a Cerax 1000 or King 1000."
> 
> My gut feeling is that the Shapton Pro 1000 is a little coarse for its grit rating, more like an 800-grit stone.



Always funny how these things go: we agree on effectiveness, not on feeling. I can remember @inferno saying the SP1K was a true 1K that felt and acted like it. All valid POVs from different experiences.

I compare SP1K speed to JNS 800 because it's just a tad slower than Cerax #700 which pretty much feels like a #700. Feeling wise, I'll just say SP1K is not coarse, not fine - which to me feels 1K. In my experience, Imanishi 1200, King DL 1200 feel coarser than SP1K, while none could cut as fast. And then there's audible feedback: SP1500 _sounds_ coarser (I suspect it to be more porous than its flanking siblings) but feels and works pretty much where it stands grit wise compared to 1K and 2K. SP1K also has that somehow harsher audible feedback that's closer to its effectiveness than how it feels under the blade.

I also concur it's not the best feeling stone. Using it however is a simple straightforward affair.


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## Deadboxhero (Mar 3, 2021)

There are new stones on the market now that are the longest wearing.

"SUPER" Vitrified Diamond

The "super" is because they are splash and go, most Vitrified are soaking stones. These new stones are also very slow wearing thanks to the harder,denser bonding.

Feedback is superior to other splash and go ceramic stones and not prone to loading like resin bonded diamond stones that need frequent dressing to function.


Wore out these Naniwa medium grits
(800 superstone, 1k chosera, 2k chosera) before having any effect on the super vitrified diamond waterstones.


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## btbyrd (Mar 3, 2021)

I like the JKI 1K diamond.


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## inferno (Mar 3, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I'm getting tired of my muddy synthetic stones, and looking for something that will stay flat a very long time. Something in the 500 - 2000 range, a first stone for typical maintenance sharpening before moving on to natural finishers. I know higher grit stones will wear more slowly per stroke, but I'm interested in the wear rate relative to cutting power. Another way of looking at it: what will remove the most metal per mm of stone thickness?



i've had a few really really slow wearers and they all fall into the (i think) category "hard vitrified".
they are all rock hard long soakers that release the absolute minimum amount of abrasive. these are basically slightly porous spydercos.
they all pretty much remove all contrast. really crisp edges.

naniwa hibiki 1 and 3k. 
missarka fepa f 500/1k (800/3k jis)
juuma 800/1200/2k
bester pink (probably "ceramic series") 2k, the 1200 is probably same type.

they all feel the same, they all work the same. they all wear ultra slow. ***** to flatten.
but they probably will clog up and/or get rounded off abrasive grits. so you need to refresh them every so often to keep them cutting imo.

but in the end i think the shapton 1k and 2k pros and glass are actually faster than all these. since they release some abrasive so they are almost self refreshing, just keep on cutting, yet slow wearing. 

i think you will be more happy with the shaptons than any of the other ones to be honest. 

only one i have kept from the first group is the bester 2k. since thats the last one i bought. the rest i simply gave away or sold. these are not for me imo. i think they would be killer for wood working tools though.


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## Bolek (Mar 3, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Always funny how these things go: we agree on effectiveness, not on feeling. I can remember @inferno saying the SP1K was a true 1K that felt and acted like it. All valid POVs from different experiences.
> 
> I compare SP1K speed to JNS 800 because it's just a tad slower than Cerax #700 which pretty much feels like a #700. Feeling wise, I'll just say SP1K is not coarse, not fine - which to me feels 1K. In my experience, Imanishi 1200, King DL 1200 feel coarser than SP1K, while none could cut as fast. And then there's audible feedback: SP1500 _sounds_ coarser (I suspect it to be more porous than its flanking siblings) but feels and works pretty much where it stands grit wise compared to 1K and 2K. SP1K also has that somehow harsher audible feedback that's closer to its effectiveness than how it feels under the blade.
> 
> I also concur it's not the best feeling stone. Using it however is a simple straightforward affair.


They look not having any backplate. Do you have additional information about them and a .link


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## ModRQC (Mar 3, 2021)

Bolek said:


> They look not having any backplate. Do you have additional information about them and a .link


Probably not quoting the post you wanted to quote. I’m guessing you were refering to @Deadboxhero post.


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## adam92 (Mar 4, 2021)

sg 500 & SP 2K stay flat for long time.


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## Bolek (Mar 4, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Probably not quoting the post you wanted to quote. I’m guessing you were refering to @Deadboxhero post.


You are right.


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## Bolek (Mar 4, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> There are new stones on the market now that are the longest wearing.
> 
> "SUPER" Vitrified Diamond
> 
> ...


They look not having any backplate. Do you have additional information about them and a link.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 4, 2021)

Bolek said:


> They look not having any backplate. Do you have additional information about them and a link.



If Shawn (@Deadboxhero) is talking about his own stones, which I assume he is, they have backing. You can find more here:

Triple B Handmade

and here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC-Y6zU-FcjYFWmM3hKNWtQ


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 7, 2021)

Just picked up the Pro 1K and 2K to round out my midrange Shapton collection, with my existing 1500 and Glass 500. I need more time to evaluate but my initial impression is the SP1k is too muddy and dished the most when measured with calipers. In comparison I prefer the GS500. The SP2k seems like the standout, judging by the dark swarth and lack of mud. The 1500 feels almost like a different series, as smooth as the 2k but very muddy. If I had to choose right now I'd stick with the GS500 and SP2k. In the next few weeks I'll try to do a more rigorous comparison and probably start a new thread.


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## inferno (Mar 7, 2021)

yeah the 1k pro is a bit more muddy than the 2k. and the 500. but i'd say it does not release much mud. imo of course. it of course depends on how you use it. i use mine quite light. its fast enough. but you can also mash it really hard and the stone will just get faster and faster. you can really abuse it if you want.

i'd say you probably dont need the 1k if you already have the 500 glass, since they are very similar. but the 1k is a very good base for a kasumi finish.

also the 3 and 4k glass are very good imo.


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## inferno (Mar 7, 2021)

give us a review when you tried them out a bit!


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## M1k3 (Mar 7, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Just picked up the Pro 1K and 2K to round out my midrange Shapton collection, with my existing 1500 and Glass 500. I need more time to evaluate but my initial impression is the SP1k is too muddy and dished the most when measured with calipers. In comparison I prefer the GS500. The SP2k seems like the standout, judging by the dark swarth and lack of mud. The 1500 feels almost like a different series, as smooth as the 2k but very muddy. If I had to choose right now I'd stick with the GS500 and SP2k. In the next few weeks I'll try to do a more rigorous comparison and probably start a new thread.


SG 500 and 4k and Pro 2k make a nice all around set for stainless and carbon.


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## inferno (Mar 7, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> SG 500 and 4k and Pro 2k make a nice all around set for stainless and carbon.



its probably all anyone ever gonna need. for all steels.


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## ModRQC (Mar 7, 2021)

It would be interesting to know the level of pressure used. SP1K « muddy » is surprising to me. It’s a stone I can sharpen on with a single splash and what’s left in the end is mostly less water and added swarf.


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## inferno (Mar 7, 2021)

me too. i regard it as very únmuddy in general.


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## ModRQC (Mar 7, 2021)

inferno said:


> me too. i regard it as very únmuddy in general.



Even forcing mud out of it with the Atoma is a vain process where very little is produced for the effort, and with minimal water will still evacuate itself quickly.

Wider area of a blade then yes it creates mud just enough for a polish.


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 7, 2021)

I was surprised too, not only muddier than I expected but also somewhat thirsty, at least compared to the other Shaptons. I didn't think these stones had a crust, but maybe it'll behave better after a few lappings? I was doing maintenance thinning on mono and clad stainless, maybe that's the difference.


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## ModRQC (Mar 7, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 117202
> 
> I was surprised too, not only muddier than I expected but also somewhat thirsty, at least compared to the other Shaptons. I didn't think these stones had a crust, but maybe it'll behave better after a few lappings? I was doing maintenance thinning on mono and clad stainless, maybe that's the difference.



It does need some layer to be over with IIRC. Been a long time and I wasn’t really observant back then.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 7, 2021)

inferno said:


> they probably will clog up and/or get rounded off abrasive grits. so you need to refresh them every so often to keep them cutting imo.
> 
> but in the end i think the shapton 1k and 2k pros and glass are actually faster than all these. since they release some abrasive so they are almost self refreshing, just keep on cutting, yet slow wearing.



It seems to be a trade-off hey?

Chosera cut fast but they dish like mad. The self slurring does a good job of keeping the surface fresh. Particularly if the water is refreshed.

The Shapton pro 120 is very, very hard and slow to dish... it works fast... but only for 10-20 passes. At that point it clogs up (or perhaps the surface abrasives are worn out) and it becomes quite slow. You need to refresh the surface with a diamond plate. In the end I suspect the Chosera 400 would be faster... but mine now looks like a skateboard ramp... so it is hard to do precise wide-bevel thinning on.

For now... maybe you can't have that continuous cutting experience and a minimally-dishing stone? Perhaps vitrified diamond does offer that experience?? I am very curious to try (especially for low end thinning) but the cost always turns me off. On the other end of the cost spectrum perhaps Norton needs more love??


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## M1k3 (Mar 7, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> The Shapton pro 120 is very, very hard and slow to dish... it works fast... but only for 10-20 passes. At that point it clogs up (or perhaps the surface abrasives are worn out) and it becomes quite slow. You need to refresh the surface with a diamond plate.


Use soft stainless cladding on Pro 120. Causes it to create slurry. On some claddings, it can pull out small chunks though.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 8, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> On some claddings, it can pull out small chunks though.



I have only tried it on carbon steels. Perhaps it it is better suited to other alloys?

It is definitely both aggressive and... not... For the carbon steel knives I have tried, when it is fresh it works fast and can cause some deep scratches (i know what you mean about small chunks). Once 'dull' it the cutting speed (and perhaps depth) slow down leaving a surprisingly shiny polish! While I couldnt say for certain why it slows down, my guess is not clogging. It seems more like the slurry and exposed (attached) abrasives from reconditioning the surface wear out without releasing any new particles. Perhaps stainless is 'grabbier' and it can tear out more abrasives when being worked?


The shapton 120 is lower grit than @spaceconvoy is seeking. In retrospect, perhaps it seems tangential why I raise it as an example. Despite being a lower grit than the Chosera 400, I wouldnt be surprised if the Chosera removed material more quickly. Perhaps that is only perception!? But it does seem like releasing finer grit at a regular rate (high dishing) may wear away steel faster than barely ever releasing a lower grit (slow dishing)! While I don't think that a slow wearing, fast stone is impossible... perhaps it does need more exotic technology (diamonds)?? Otherwise I suspect we'd all be using them!


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## M1k3 (Mar 8, 2021)

The abrasives get rounded. I've tried many things to make that stone consistently usable. I've gotten to the point I use a Shun beater to create slurry when it does it. And 3m pro 60 grit sandpaper to flatten it.


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## inferno (Mar 8, 2021)

with the 120 i find its important to keep some slurry on there, and work it. then it exposes new abrasive. 
if you let the 120 go too smooth you need to refinish it with sic powder or similar.

i would guess in regular use the 220 is actually just as fast or even faster than the 120 most of the time.
i feel the 120 needs a lot higher pressure to work really fast.


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## inferno (Mar 8, 2021)

these days i do a lazy reconditioning on my 120. i simply sprinkle some sic powder between the 120 and a 100 grit sic brick. rub it around until it gets fine. then its done. 1 minute.


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## cotedupy (Mar 8, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> The abrasives get rounded. I've tried many things to make that stone consistently usable. I've gotten to the point I use a Shun beater to create slurry when it does it. And 3m pro 60 grit sandpaper to flatten it.



A q for you, and others who might know... is my perception that my coarse Norton SiC wears much less than my other synthetics correct? I've used it a lot for quite significant work on both carbon and stainless, never flattened it, and it still seems to cut very well. I've not really felt any rounding of the abrasives or anything.

Something to do with SiC stones? Or am I mis-remembering and it was actually more aggressive when I got about a year ago...?


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## Luftmensch (Mar 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> i would guess in regular use the 220 is actually just as fast or even faster than the 120 most of the time.



Your speed test a while back was super impressive. I really liked the approach there...

I am sure a finer grit stone that releases grit constantly/faster would cut faster... How long does reconditioning with SiC power last? I use the 120 with a thick slurry. It definitely extends the use time! But once the slurry is exhausted... the stone glazes....




M1k3 said:


> I've gotten to the point I use a Shun beater to create slurry when it does it.



Ha! That is an interesting idea!! Does the stainless swarf help keep refreshing the surface? Is it any better than creating a slurry with an Atoma?



My only point of reference are shapton glass, chosera and super-stones. I'd put these all in the fast-release & dishing category. Are the other low-mid grits (e.g. King) more similar to these stones or the shapton 120? For low grit thinning, I am currently happy to trade-off slow cutting so that I can work on a relatively flat surface. Once that is done, I'd prefer fast cutting and dishing (low-mids and higher)....


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## M1k3 (Mar 8, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> A q for you, and others who might know... is my perception that my coarse Norton SiC wears much less than my other synthetics correct? I've used it a lot for quite significant work on both carbon and stainless, never flattened it, and it still seems to cut very well. I've not really felt any rounding of the abrasives or anything.
> 
> Something to do with SiC stones? Or am I mis-remembering and it was actually more aggressive when I got about a year ago...?


They wear much less than other stones. You probably haven't rounded off the abrasives. They they will last much longer with simple carbon steels. And lighter pressure.

My personal experience, cheap, soft abrasion resistant stainless steels wear out the abrasives on Norton's. The kind you find as house knives in restaurants.


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## M1k3 (Mar 8, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Your speed test a while back was super impressive. I really liked the approach there...
> 
> I am sure a finer grit stone that releases grit constantly/faster would cut faster... How long does reconditioning with SiC power last? I use the 120 with a thick slurry. It definitely extends the use time! But once the slurry is exhausted... the stone glazes....
> 
> ...


It's the soft stainless cladding pulling abrasives out. I don't bother killing a diamond plate on that stone....again.

King 300 is similar to SP 120 but not as difficult.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 8, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Something to do with SiC stones?



I was going to hail you and ask if you had any more thoughts about the Norton stones. I am still intrigued by the idea of buying a crystolon stone. They are relatively cheap. It sounds like you have had a good experience  

Crystolon stones are vitrified silicon carbide. Silicon carbide is sharper and harder than aluminium oxide.... I believe that makes it well suited to bulk material removal but not so great for polishing (scratchy finish). On the other hand... aluminium oxide apparently breaks down faster exposing fresh cutting edges leading to a more polished finish (lest scratchy pattern). 

Perhaps this partially explains the abrasive 'rounding' that @M1k3 mentioned? Once they are round they cut less efficiently and are harder to fracture?


I wouldn't be surprised if all shapton/naniwa (etc) stones were some binder that included either SiC or Al2O3... they are the most popular abrasives. Maybe SiC at the low end and Al2O3 at the high end?? Mostly speculation there... I guess it is possible they use other abrasives (zirconia, boron,....). But I'd guess most of the magic happens in the binder...


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## Luftmensch (Mar 8, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I don't bother killing a diamond plate on that stone....again.



Ha! Fair enough... I know what you mean!



M1k3 said:


> King 300 is similar to SP 120 but not as difficult



Eh... that doesn't appeal too much. Maybe it would pair well with another hard low grit? By 500 (definitely by 1000) I'd be choosing a chosera or shapton glass instead...


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## M1k3 (Mar 8, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Ha! Fair enough... I know what you mean!
> 
> 
> 
> Eh... that doesn't appeal too much. Maybe it would pair well with another hard low grit? By 500 (definitely by 1000) I'd be choosing a chosera or shapton glass instead...


Closest to that "magic" coarse stone I've found is....
SG500? Heard the Glass 120 isn't quite as frustrating as the Pro though.

Regarding the Crystolon. It's like the grinding on the Sigma 240, but, the teeth clenching grinding is ramped up 100x. And stays flatter waaayyy longer.


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## cotedupy (Mar 8, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I was going to hail you and ask if you had any more thoughts about the Norton stones. I am still intrigued by the idea of buying a crystolon stone. They are relatively cheap. It sounds like you have had a good experience
> 
> Crystolon stones are vitrified silicon carbide. Silicon carbide is sharper and harder than aluminium oxide.... I believe that makes it well suited to bulk material removal but not so great for polishing (scratchy finish). On the other hand... aluminium oxide apparently breaks down faster exposing fresh cutting edges leading to a more polished finish (lest scratchy pattern).
> 
> ...



Yes... I have had quite a good experience. Mine is a Norton Bear Coarse and Fine SiC that I got for about $30/40 Aus I think, from Mitre 10. I didn't use to enjoy using it much, as it'd ooze goo the entire time. But I think I've got most out now and it works just as well, maybe better, than before just with a bit of water.

I now really quite like it. I don't think I'd want a posher, dishier (ho ho), coarse stone in the future... I'm happy with this .


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## M-S-T (Mar 8, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I'm getting tired of my muddy synthetic stones, and looking for something that will stay flat a very long time. Something in the 500 - 2000 range, a first stone for typical maintenance sharpening before moving on to natural finishers. I know higher grit stones will wear more slowly per stroke, but I'm interested in the wear rate relative to cutting power. Another way of looking at it: what will remove the most metal per mm of stone thickness?



A solid #1000'ish resin diamond stone probably would give you everything you are looking for. Maybe with a boosted concentration for extra wear resistance.


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## inferno (Mar 8, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Your speed test a while back was super impressive. I really liked the approach there...
> 
> I am sure a finer grit stone that releases grit constantly/faster would cut faster... How long does reconditioning with SiC power last? I use the 120 with a thick slurry. It definitely extends the use time! But once the slurry is exhausted... the stone glazes....
> 
> ...




the reconditioning works until it glazes again. maybe a few minutes. a 220 pro can be kept cutting with just regular use, but it dishes a lot faster.

my 100 grit noname sic stone cut for about 30 seconds then it just made noise, but no actual cutting anymore. i ran it with water.

it you want low wear low grit there is always the king 300, jns 300, dmt/atoma plates, maybe green sic stones like king and sigma. the 220 glass is slower wearing and faster than the 220 pro, but you only get 7mm stone.

then we have sandpaper...


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## tgfencer (Mar 8, 2021)

Bolek said:


> They look not having any backplate. Do you have additional information about them and a link.



They do have a backing plate. Those three he is holding are the naniwa stones, not the vitrified ones.









1000 Grit Super Vitrified Diamond Waterstone — Triple B Handmade


NEW Ultra premium, high performance sharpening stone. A very hard diamond abrasive at high concentration with a unique Super Vitrified bonding. Dimensions: 200 mm x 70 mm x 20 mm Fast cutting speed Retains flatness Splash & Go, no soaking required Feedback like traditional c




www.triplebhandmade.com


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## inferno (Mar 8, 2021)

one thing i have noticed with hard vitrified stones like the juumas is that soft ss cladding will rip out abrasive and plow deep scratches in the stone and the cladding. really soft cladding can even rip out diamonds out of atomas. not very pretty.. so for soft ss clad blades some stones dont work fast. since you can only use them with low pressure.


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## tgfencer (Mar 8, 2021)

I think the JKI 1 and 6k diamond are more than enough for most people, especially if you're dipping your toes into the diamond world. That said I picked up a vitrified 400 from @Deadboxhero because I sharpen various butchery knives frequently and the only thing worse than thinning knives is having to spend half the time flattening stones. Will probably try for a 1000 grit next time he has them, but this last time they sold out fast.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 8, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Regarding the Crystolon. It's like the grinding on the Sigma 240, but, the teeth clenching grinding is ramped up 100x. And stays flatter waaayyy longer.





Yuck. Last night I tried 80(?) grit SiC on the shapton 120.... The grains are about the size of sugar grains or coarse sand... Man was that unpleasant. Not quite as bad as scratching fingernails across a blackboard... but moving in that direction!


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## Luftmensch (Mar 8, 2021)

tgfencer said:


> That said I picked up a vitrified 400 from @Deadboxhero



Thoughts? I am tempted by the Naniwa Diamond 400... (due to local availability). I believe vitrified diamond are slow... which I am probably ok with if they keep cutting continuously - although I believe they do get clogged and glazed? At least with low grits, 'contaminants' from the dressing stone aren't really a problem - so refreshing the surface is less finicky.


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## tgfencer (Mar 8, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Thoughts? I am tempted by the Naniwa Diamond 400... (due to local availability). I believe vitrified diamond are slow... which I am probably ok with if they keep cutting continuously - although I believe they do get clogged and glazed? At least with low grits, 'contaminants' from the dressing stone aren't really a problem - so refreshing the surface is less finicky.



I’ve only had the chance to use a handful of times since I got it last week, but it’s great. No visible glazing or clogging and quite fast, certainly fast enough for most people, especially considering there’s no flattening to be done. And it feels very nice for a low grit/diamond. Start to finish time on that grit certainly beat my Gesshin 400 hands down. Haven’t had a chance to do any thinning jobs on it yet though I’ll report back when I do. 

Can’t speak to a Naniwa diamond comparison. 

All that said @Deadboxhero could give you much better info than me. You can also message him on Instagram at triplebhandmade.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 8, 2021)

@tgfencer,

Thanks for the response!



tgfencer said:


> And it feels very nice for a low grit/diamond.



Have you had experience with the Shapton Glass 500 or the Chosera 400? If so, how does it compare to those? Finish? Speed? Feel?

I am surprised there is no glazing/clogging... It appears to be expected with the Naniwa Diamond stones...



Maybe that is more of a concern at higher grits?

@Deadboxhero, you're the resident vitrified diamond guru! What is your perspective? I am also keen to hear how your Super Vitrified Diamond stones compare to the Naniwa Diamond stones (from your previous points it seems like: no soaking and less clogging)? Do you think they fit @spaceconvoy's quest for a stone that will "_remove the most metal per mm of stone thickness_"? The only downside seems to be price (significant), availability and speed (not significant... at least to me!).


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## M-S-T (Mar 9, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> @tgfencer,
> 
> Thanks for the response!
> 
> ...




Most of the time VDS stones falls right in between electroplated and resin. Speed and surface finish wise it is exactly that. A little bit slower or very close to electroplated, but faster than resin. Same with the surface finish. Finer than electroplated, but resin is superior for polishing tasks. Mostly this is related to the abrasive particle friability and protrusion percentage from the matrix. Tipically resin bonded abrasives are made from a more fragile diamond grades with a better self sharpening ability. At the same time it has the lowest particle exposure. Electroplated is the oposite of the resin regarding. Vitrified is unique because it has a very hard matrix and the least fragile, strongest type of diamond, but the particle protrusion percentage is somewhere in between the resin and electroplated. Tactile feedback is best out of them. You can feel immediately that it is a ceramic stone. It is a pleasurable stone for sure. You should understand that everything that doesn't fracture and doesn't give slurry will load. That's just the reality of things. Now, how much it will load may vary a lot. It is rarely a problem with low grits and gets worse as you go up the grit range. In my opinion VDS has the best wear autoregulation. Meaning, the "wear rate" of the abrasive and the matrix is more or less equal or at least the best in the industry at the moment. It is almost impossible to glaze the surface so it doesn't cut. Something that may happen with resin pretty easily. Because of all that VDS will remove the most amount of material with a given thickness of the abrasive layer. Hands down. Everything I wrote is just a rough generalization.


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## Deadboxhero (Mar 9, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> @tgfencer,
> 
> Thanks for the response!
> 
> ...





The Super Vitrified cuts faster and had the least amount of wear in testing compared to almost all the stones on the market.





The resin stones were all prone to loading and needed dressing frequently to keep cutting best otherwise they would glaze and burnish.

The Super Vitrified stones don't have that glazing problem, they have good feedback better than a Shapton Glass or Chosera; more like a soaking stone yet are splash and go.



The Super Vitrified 400grit stone is probably my favorite, it's an absolute monster.

A good coarse stone is very important.

Many of these 400 grit latte stones wore out and the Super Vitrified 400 grit still hasn't been flattened.

It's a lot of time to flatten these latte stones to keep the running good too.







The speed, splash and go convenience and the performance is very enjoyable.

These Super Vitrified stones require using very expensive materials to create but it's definitely worth the cost given the performance and features.


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## Bolek (Mar 9, 2021)

M-S-T said:


> Most of the time VDS stones falls right in between electroplated and resin. Speed and surface finish wise it is exactly that. A little bit slower or very close to electroplated, but faster than resin. Same with the surface finish. Finer than electroplated, but resin is superior for polishing tasks. Mostly this is related to the abrasive particle friability and protrusion percentage from the matrix. Tipically resin bonded abrasives are made from a more fragile diamond grades with a better self sharpening ability. At the same time it has the lowest particle exposure. Electroplated is the oposite of the resin regarding. Vitrified is unique because it has a very hard matrix and the least fragile, strongest type of diamond, but the particle protrusion percentage is somewhere in between the resin and electroplated. Tactile feedback is best out of them. You can feel immediately that it is a ceramic stone. It is a pleasurable stone for sure. You should understand that everything that doesn't fracture and doesn't give slurry will load. That's just the reality of things. Now, how much it will load may vary a lot. It is rarely a problem with low grits and gets worse as you go up the grit range. In my opinion VDS has the best wear autoregulation. Meaning, the "wear rate" of the abrasive and the matrix is more or less equal or at least the best in the industry at the moment. It is almost impossible to glaze the surface so it doesn't cut. Something that may happen with resin pretty easily. Because of all that VDS will remove the most amount of material with a given thickness of the abrasive layer. Hands down. Everything I wrote is just a rough generalization.


I am very happy with your VDS 400, 2k (my favorite) and 5k. I apply very low pressur on diamonds. Maybe I shoud have bought also the 1k. Up to now I use it for hard carbid steels, but I shall tray it on all knives I have.


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## inferno (Mar 10, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Yuck. Last night I tried 80(?) grit SiC on the shapton 120.... The grains are about the size of sugar grains or coarse sand... Man was that unpleasant. Not quite as bad as scratching fingernails across a blackboard... but moving in that direction!



if you have a big enough piece of glass to do this on you can get some pretty nasty sounds out of it


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## Luftmensch (Mar 10, 2021)

inferno said:


> if you have a big enough piece of glass to do this on you can get some pretty nasty sounds out of it



Yuck!


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## inferno (Mar 12, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Yuck!



i like this description... 



M1k3 said:


> feels like scraping metal on death.



 i agree, its kinda like that. and it sounds like that too imo. very good description.


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