# Prices of hobbyist knives 0_o



## Ruso (Aug 17, 2020)

Do I miss something or what is going on with the hobbyist knives prices? When you can buy a knife from a well established maker(s) for cheaper than a knife from a person who makes the knives as a “hobby”. 
Obviously, one can ask for any price, but maaan this looks fed up.


----------



## M1k3 (Aug 17, 2020)

What exactly are you comparing? Sakai style production versus made to order? Also have to compare the fit and finish. More abrasion resistant steels take more time to grind out AND make look nice. Stock removal versus making your own billet/stock. And so on...


----------



## Ruso (Aug 17, 2020)

I am comparing western makers to western makers. It would not be fair to compare western hobbyist to Japanese professionals. The latter are much better value for money and probably outperform most western hobbyist.


----------



## esoo (Aug 17, 2020)

Scales of economy and hardware. Making one blade is more expensive per blade than making multiples. 

this is pretty much true of any hobby versus makers.


----------



## LostHighway (Aug 17, 2020)

What represents a fair price or good value is up to the perceptions of the customer(s). It should be noted that several of the KKF "hobbyists" *are* well respected full time makers, it is simply down to how they have chosen to post available knives. Other hobbyists are making knives on the side. If you're pricing your tenth or twentieth knife at the level of "name" makers and can get it I have no problem with that but I'm not likely to be among the buyers.


----------



## McMan (Aug 17, 2020)

Maybe two ways of looking at it?
(1) I see what you mean... some just starting out on the road ask about as much as some who've been on the road for a while. But there's a big gap in quality between the two.
(2) Some people just don't make many knives. But this doesn't mean they're not good at making knives, it just means they can't value efficiency/workflow/etc. the same ways as a full-time maker.

I've got a few knives from "hobbyists" that are badass. I have no doubt that the amount of time they spent in the knife far, far surpasses what they charged. They spent the time to get it right.

Long story short, I don't think there's always a clear correlation in terms of quality between someone doing something for a living vs. hobby. But I see what you mean--there are a lot of "low on the learning curve" options at the $3-400 price point. Hey, gotta pay off that belt grinder somehow


----------



## Jville (Aug 17, 2020)

Can you reference a particular hobbyist or show a particular knife to do a comparison? I think it depends on the knife or particular hobbyist. I cant group all hobbyist together.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Aug 17, 2020)

The Japanese knives are great values, but pretty limited in their half dozen steels of choices, all of them are fragile & chippy when met with semi-frozen meat. 

The US makers have some tough steels like 52100, you can’t get from JKnives. It’s my go to steel for cutting semi-frozen meat, I don’t mind paying a bit more because even my mighty Toyama can’t handle semi-frozen meat.

I know not all have a need to cut semi-frozen meat, but for me it’s a must for thin slicing stir-fry that I do daily.


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 17, 2020)

I'm not even sure I understand the point being made. Who compares to who in what way here? Last time I checked "established" westerners sold knives easily above the 1K mark as a living. I think a good deal of hobbyists are proposing custom order well-made stuff for much less. First couple guys that bought a Kramer probably felt like it was a crazy move, even as he sold much cheaper?


----------



## ian (Aug 17, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> The Japanese knives are great values, but pretty limited in their half dozen steels of choices, all of them are fragile & chippy when met with semi-frozen meat.
> 
> The US makers have some tough steels like 52100, you can’t get from JKnives. It’s my go to steel for cutting semi-frozen meat, I dint mind paying a bit more because even my mighty Toyama can’t handle semi-frozen meat.



You are really into your semi frozen meat, my friend.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Aug 17, 2020)

ian said:


> You are really into your semi frozen meat, my friend.



Yes, because I am in the Stir-fry hobby,

hard meat > soft meat


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 17, 2020)

ian said:


> You are really into your semi frozen meat, my friend.



They say it makes cuts easier and finer with bad knives. I wasn't under the impression @ma_sha1 had bad knives. There may be something to this.


----------



## ecchef (Aug 17, 2020)

Just because someone is presented as a ‘hobbyist’ isn’t an automatic reason to think their work is inferior or less valuable than some established ‘makers’. Browse the selection from the ‘pros’ on some other Forums; absolute shite. And not cheap either.


----------



## ian (Aug 17, 2020)

Yea, it’s hard to say for sure. I haven’t tried many knives by the “hobbyists” on here. The only one is a Kipp honyaki, but he’s totally established now. But yea, probably a hobbyist just starting out could spend 10x as long on a knife as a more established maker, so it’d be hard to compete pricewise. I have no idea though.

Perhaps it’d be best to have some reviews of the knives in question before we start blasting people for the prices they charge....


----------



## ma_sha1 (Aug 17, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> They say it makes cuts easier and finer with bad knives. I wasn't under the impression @ma_sha1 had bad knives. There may be something to this.



I use my Shi.han 52100, a very fine knife. The reason for semi-frozen meat is because I take meat directly from freezer, microwave quick heat to semi-frozen & go directly to cutting. Full thawing will cook part of the meat, no good & the microwave thawing function takes too long, no time.

Also, you can slice semi-frozen meat a lot thinner than soft meat, like paper thin. Shaved meat, for example, can’t be done from soft meat.

Am I the only one cutting semi-frozen meat around here? Anyone one else?


----------



## Colin (Aug 17, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I use my Shi.han 52100, a very fine knife. The reason for semi-frozen meat is because I take meat directly from the freezer, microwave quick heat to semi-frozen & go directly to cutting. Full thawing will cook part of the meat, no good & the microwave thawing function takes too long, no time.


At my work, we call it emergency thawing. We take meat that is frozen and defrost in the sink with running water over. Or the microwave, like you, but it depends on the amount of time we have until service and the portion of meat.

To answer the OPs question, I have some hobbyist knives that blow my other knives out of the water. Value is really relative when it comes to knives. Some people value aesthetics and are willing to pay a premium for it, others look for functionality. I think as a collective KKF values performance more, and some knife makers have really excelled in this forum because of it. We as a collective would most likely rather test the performance of a knife rather than judge the knife based on how long a person has been making knives or how famous they are.


----------



## ian (Aug 17, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Am I the only one cutting semi-frozen meat around here? Anyone one else?



I do it occasionally, for all the reasons people usually give, but you seem to rate knives exclusively on their ability to do this.


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 17, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I use my Shi.han 52100, a very fine knife. The reason for semi-frozen meat is because I take meat directly from freezer, microwave quick heat to semi-frozen & go directly to cutting. Full thawing will cook part of the meat, no good & the microwave thawing function takes too long, no time.
> 
> Also, you can slice semi-frozen meat a lot thinner than soft meat, like paper thin. Shaved meat, for example, can’t be done from soft meat.
> 
> Am I the only one cutting semi-frozen meat around here? Anyone one else?



"They say it makes cut easier and finer" applies of course even more to good knives. I wasn't trying to insult but saying what I think: I know you have good knives, better than mine surely, from hanging around here a bit. Just thinking there was something to it. You explained it at the same time.


----------



## ian (Aug 17, 2020)

I’d like to see a semifrozen meat cutting test thread to compete with all the carrot cutting videos.

#offtopicschmofftopic


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 17, 2020)

I'd like to see the "Show your newest" thread with a full video of every single knife, chopping herbs and mincing shallots, going though big hard carrots and watermelons and butternuts, dicing some onion as the standard presentation, slicing some raw and cooked proteins, and then some... Just me though.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Aug 17, 2020)

ian said:


> I’d like to see a semifrozen meat cutting test thread to compete with all the carrot cutting videos.



The chipping galore will lead to a shocking revelation of the industry’s darkest secrets: All Japanes knives are made by Shun


----------



## Jville (Aug 17, 2020)

ian said:


> You are really into your semi frozen meat, my friend.


They should get a room.


----------



## Jville (Aug 17, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I use my Shi.han 52100, a very fine knife. The reason for semi-frozen meat is because I take meat directly from freezer, microwave quick heat to semi-frozen & go directly to cutting. Full thawing will cook part of the meat, no good & the microwave thawing function takes too long, no time.
> 
> Also, you can slice semi-frozen meat a lot thinner than soft meat, like paper thin. Shaved meat, for example, can’t be done from soft meat.
> 
> Am I the only one cutting semi-frozen meat around here? Anyone one else?


While i will agree its easier to do shave meat with it semi frozen. You can easily cut some very thin meat with a japanese or good knive that is thin behind the edge or a slicing type knife, especially if its just for a family or personal stirfry. I started my cheesesteak truck using a knife. While i admit it was tedious and very laborious, i pulled it off and it got me started. Granted i would not return to that method, but i could definetly shave enough at my house for me to have a cheesesteak. At another job we used to partially freeze salmon for salmon tartare, which i found much easier. I also dont shave meat for stirfry, but i guess if that's your preference. I like it thin for stir fry, but have no issues cutting it with a knife. Its kind of like, when people have crappy or thick behind the edge knives and try to shave onions; its's very difficult. They will most likely opt for a mandoline or a slicer, but with a good sharp knife that is very thin behind the edge its not difficult.


----------



## Kippington (Aug 18, 2020)

This thread went hilariously off topic... *in record time!!! *
Never change KKF!


----------



## tchan001 (Aug 18, 2020)

Ma_sha1 must be using an allegory tale of shaving semi-frozen meat to tell the hobbyist makers to shave off some of their pricing. LOL


----------



## Jville (Aug 18, 2020)

Kippington said:


> This thread went hilariously off topic... *in record time!!! *
> Never change KKF!


Dang it, Ma_sha and his frozen meat baited me. Something snapped, I couldn't help it.


----------



## Matus (Aug 18, 2020)

C’mon OP, let’s throw in some names and offend a few people


----------



## ma_sha1 (Aug 18, 2020)

Jville said:


> Dang it, Ma_sha and his frozen meat baited me. Something snapped, I couldn't help it.


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 18, 2020)

But what do our hobbyist makers here think about that exactly?

I see @HSC /// Knives liking the OP. Is it irony, or does he agree to a certain degree? Why?

What about you @Kippington since you're around?


----------



## Tim Rowland (Aug 18, 2020)

I am not a "hobbyist maker" here on KKF
I am however someone who makes knives as a hobby/side business in my spare time outside of my main career (Chef)
I post examples of my projects here every once in a while.
So I will not speak directly to pricing as I think that would be out of line for me to do so at this moment.
What I will do is echo those who have stated that a single craftsman operation is much different time wise and financially than a factory or "village" where multiple people do multiple parts as batches. 
Typically, not always but typically if only 1 person is making an item there is going to be much more attention to detail.
Also geographic area effects a craftsman's cost of materials. 
I hope this helps make a bit more sense of it well without actually discussing pricing/price points.


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 18, 2020)

Tim Rowland said:


> I am not a "hobbyist maker" here on KKF
> I am however someone who makes knives as a hobby/side business in my spare time outside of my main career (Chef)
> I post examples of my projects here every once in a while.
> So I will not speak directly to pricing as I think that would be out of line for me to do so at this moment.
> ...



Yes and I agree with these posts. I thought it pretty much said it all. Then I saw HSC's liking of the OP. Made me think that perhaps there was something to it that I didn't grasp. That it could be a frustration for some more established hobbyists to see new ones selling at higher prices perhaps than they did when they started? IDK...


----------



## Tim Rowland (Aug 18, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Yes and I agree with these posts. I thought it pretty much said it all. Then I saw HSC's liking of the OP. Made me think that perhaps there was something to it that I didn't grasp. That it could be a frustration for some more established hobbyists to see new ones selling at higher prices perhaps than they did when they started? IDK...



Charge what you charge, If you are posting something for sale on here, I sure hope that you have been selling in multiple venues for a while and already have figured out what the market is willing to pay for your work........if not its a bit of the cart before the horse.
(To play devils advocate)
That said I do believe there are people who do not understand that just because they don't like the price for the work of someone who "they" have not heard of then they don't have to buy said product.
I have seen that here.
Example a maker is used to selling (Knife A) for $XXX and has done so successfully for a while, then decides to sell same style (Knife A) for the same money here and people question the price because they have not heard of them and want them to lower their prices until the KKF community knows who they are.
Why would that maker continue to try and sell here when they could continue to sell at their normal price in the other places that they have been successful already.
It's simple just as the market decides what it is willing to pay for a product, the maker also decides what market to sell in.
Perhaps a maker can sell to a less educated market for more and only cares about the end profit rather than earning slightly less and gaining great feedback/reputation from people in a (connoisseurs) market. Is that right, well that is up to the maker,their financial needs, and the market.


----------



## HSC /// Knives (Aug 18, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> But what do our hobbyist makers here think about that exactly?
> 
> I see @HSC /// Knives liking the OP. Is it irony, or does he agree to a certain degree? Why?
> 
> What about you @Kippington since you're around?


I’m a full-time maker for 2 1/2 years and every day I have to wake up and make and sell something to pay the mortgage and have something to eat. So I do look at market prices and what others are selling for including hobbyists.

I have no problem with anyone charging whatever they want. The OP brought up his opinion and I’m more or less in agreement with his feelings/opinion.

The problem with knifemaking is that now everyone is a Knifemaker and the barriers to entry are very low.

I did a little survey on another forum and my unscientific Poll tells me that only 15% of Knifemakers are full-time and reliant on that income like me

so the great majority of others have other income that subsidizes their hobby....Just look at how many power hammers and presses and anvils s are being sold.

thus they don’t need to sell a knife and can price it however they want until it sells or doesn’t sell.

yes I do agree to a certain degree

I think we can all agree that competition is a wonderful thing and it elevates everyone’s work

I hope this doesn’t get taken the wrong way and I’m not trying to be combative or belligerent, (I’m here to make relationships not enemies) however I often see advice/opinion given by people who are part time which as I mentioned are the great majority. I would say take the leap of faith and do this full-time and then you might have more credibility (at least with me). I think there was a saying in David Boye’s book - it’s one thing to make a knife or even 50 knives, but it’s a whole Another thing to make a living as a Knifemaker

Anyway I don’t pay a lot of attention to this because I have to concern myself with my work

regards
Harbeer


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 18, 2020)

Thanks for the input.


----------



## HSC /// Knives (Aug 18, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Thanks for the input.



Here’s the quote

“It is one thing to make one knife, or 10 knives, and Quite another To make knives every working day as a means of livelihood. A whole new set of skills is required...”


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 18, 2020)

Tim Rowland said:


> Charge what you charge, If you are posting something for sale on here, I sure hope that you have been selling in multiple venues for a while and already have figured out what the market is willing to pay for your work........if not its a bit of the cart before the horse.
> (To play devils advocate)
> That said I do believe there are people who do not understand that just because they don't like the price for the work of someone who "they" have not heard of then they don't have to buy said product.
> I have seen that here.
> ...



I was not implying it exactly this way, more of a convergence thing. The market for handmade knives has opened up big time in the last decade or so. In part, some of the more established hobbyists have participated to this blossoming. They started back at a time where perhaps they couldn't ask for the price their work really was worth in sheer sweat, and where perhaps demand was lower and it was much harder to generate a market for themselves. Newer hobbyists selling higher prices because demand is so high that one way or another it manages to sell - they don't have to work so hard for less anymore. On the other hand, the already established makers, can they suddenly rise their prices accordingly? Why wouldn't they... but how could they?


----------



## HSC /// Knives (Aug 18, 2020)

One last thing and then I promise I’ll go away 

i’m sure you guys know this but for those who don’t... there are different classifications for membership and hobbyist sales is one of them which is a lower price than the one I have, which is professional craftsman.

it doesn’t necessarily mean that the person who chose that membership is just a hobbyist and they well could be a full time maker. They just chose the lower price option for membership which gives them less sales opportunities here.

I certainly thought about the lower priced hobbyist sales membership but as long as you guys keep buying from me I’m going to do my part and contribute with a higher priced paid membership. And That’s simply an economical business decision.


----------



## Matus (Aug 18, 2020)

Ok let me give a proper answer. Since I am a hobbyist too, though I am yet to make more than 10 knives per year. Guys like me have zero chance to break even - not even considering the costs as one has to invest several thousands to get decent tools to get started. Plus we hoard materials of all kind for some reason... It is a hobby and it consumes money. 

Also - we, hobbyists, rarely have optimized processes plus often our skills are suboptimal (mine for sure are), so it takes us many hours to finish a knife that does not look like something like German industrial modern art (read - rusting piece of iron of undefined shape).

So when it comes to pricing - one may indeed pick from different approaches - starting low just covering the expenses plus a few bucks on top to feel good - and all the way up trying to get an acceptable hourly wage and ending up with a price that may have lead to this thread.

I personally would have hard time (me as a person) to ask more for a stock removal made knife than say Bryan asks for (a superbly made!) hand forged sanmai, but at the same time I am not going to make it for the cost of materials and services like HT (which are mostly not much less that 100€ in total here in DE, snd often more than that.)

That is from the point of view of a hobbyist. Buyers may (and usually do) have a very different perspective - and rightfully so. Mostly they won’t give a damn how long some dude takes to grind a bevel or put a usable finish on a blade. They see a product and if they like it, they will be willing to spend certain amount of money. Not only beauty, but also value is in the eye of beholder. And to increase this perceived value is called - marketing.


----------



## Matus (Aug 18, 2020)

@HSC /// Knives - and we appreciate it!


----------



## LostHighway (Aug 18, 2020)

I'm going to bend the curve of this conversation a little.
I'm very much interested in the question of competency within both crafts and professional disciplines. It has been my experience that people can, and often do, build a comfortable career without being particularly good at what they do in both high barrier to entry disciplines like medicine, law, or architecture as well as low barrier to entry fields such as landscaping/gardening, carpentry, or presumably knife making. The vast majority of the public are rarely good judges of the quality of work in any specialized discipline. As a consumer I don't find the distinction between hobbyist and professional either particularly interesting or illuminating, what I do care about is the quality of work. It is always disappointing to see some hack asking high prices for mediocre to poor work and actually getting it.
I'm all for supporting people starting out. A person with an inquiring intellect, a good eye, some technical skills, and a high level of attention to detail may in fact be producing a very acceptable knife early in their career. If they are pricing their work commensurately with their level of experience, competence, and reputation or lack of it I'm happy to support them. I think it is a positive thing when members post photos of the work of some knife maker I've never heard of, especially it is coupled with even a short review. If, however, the maker is trying to get me to subsidize their education by asking really ambitious prices I'll pass.
For the professionals or hobbyists/amateurs who keep pushing to perfect their skills you have my admiration.

Edit: A number of people have written about barriers to entry in various career paths, among them the late philosopher and social critic Ivan Illich who argued that they were more often than not structured primarily to limit competition rather than to assure competence.


----------



## tchan001 (Aug 18, 2020)

Would be nice if a vendor like DT offers knives more often on KKF.


----------



## Chefget (Aug 18, 2020)

I recently bought a knife from a 'new' knifemaker in the Philippines (don't know if he is full-time). In his early 20's but building a nice knife. Stock removal. The knife was very expensive at ~$700, but beautiful and I wanted it. Gotta say it performs superbly.

Fast forward 5 months and he showed a beautiful 52100 core san-mai 240mm gyuto on another forum. After an email inquiry he informed me a similar knife would be $1500 :O

Didn't bother to reply


----------



## ma_sha1 (Aug 18, 2020)

I really don’t understand the fuss, The prices will self-adjust once a blade smith realizes the asking price was too high.

If it sells at those price, then it’s justifiable. what gives the buyers the right to name their own price? Or decide for the blade smith what price they should sell? Don’t like it, don’t buy it.

Yes, It’s important to sell it at the right price, optimize a balance between profit vs. turn over rate, but it’s up to the knife maker to figure that out.


----------



## Tim Rowland (Aug 18, 2020)

Chefget said:


> I recently bought a knife from a 'new' knifemaker in the Philippines (don't know if he is full-time). In his early 20's but building a nice knife. Stock removal. The knife was very expensive at ~$700, but beautiful and I wanted it. Gotta say it performs superbly.
> 
> Fast forward 5 months and he showed a beautiful 52100 core san-mai 240mm gyuto on another forum. After an email inquiry he informed me a similar knife would be $1500 :O
> 
> Didn't bother to reply




I think that is a perfect example of what the OP and Harbeer have tried to convey regarding prices.
In my opinion you should have one heck of a following to charge that much for a san mai knife....like post on instagram and sold within 5 minutes type of following or can only buy a knife from a lottery because your work is so in demand.
If you are not at that level yet than that is an absurd asking price.
Even the 1st knife at $700 is quite expensive.
You can buy knives from many, many, many makers for far less than that...like half that in some instances.
But as stated multiple times. It is worth what people are willing to pay.

Out of curiosity would you mind posting a photo of the knife you did purchase? Maybe on the side with no makers mark if you don't want to stir anything up.


----------



## Matus (Aug 18, 2020)

No fuss, @ma_sha1 , just a perfectly normal discussion.


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 18, 2020)

That's right back on track, incidentally...


----------



## Jville (Aug 18, 2020)

Matus said:


> No fuss, @ma_sha1 , just a perfectly normal discussion.


+1, its very relevant topic.


----------



## Bensbites (Aug 18, 2020)

I am a part time rehandler teaching myself to grind kitchen knives. I have to agree with the perspective on market setting the price and hobbyists who aren’t paying the bills have a very different perspective than full time makers.


----------



## birdsfan (Aug 18, 2020)

I can't be mad about how any maker chooses to price his product. I have just started to delve into some of the creative aspect of this hobby. Truthfully, I have a personal connection to everything I have created, and I would have a hard time selling anything I have made. It is art, maybe not good art (eh, it's getting better), but art nonetheless. Parting with something that you have put part of your soul into is worthy of compensation if it touches the buyer on some level. 

If a maker prices their product too high, and it turns out not to deliver what the buyer expects, then word will spread pretty quickly, and prices will drop, or stock will sit stagnant. If the piece meets or exceeds expectations, word will similarly spread and prices will tend to rise. We have seen the same thing happen with many of the up and coming Japanese makers as well. Just like any other commodity, demand and supply sets the price.


----------



## Kippington (Aug 18, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> What about you @Kippington since you're around?



I'm happy to share my current situation.

I sit in a strange position: On one side, most hobbyists and buyers look at my prices / order list / quality (I hope), and they would consider me a full-time knife maker. On the other side, full-time knife makers would laugh and call me a hobbyist - which boils down to how slowly I make knifes and how I treat the "business".

It takes me on average a week and a half to complete a knife. This includes things you might not consider, such as getting a response from someone who last showed interest a year ago, and the back and forth messages between their desires and my ability to make what they want (it's during these times of inactivity I try to make knives for the Hobbyist BST). Other things that take up time include blade failures - many cracked honyakis, trying to forge stainless in a small charcoal forge, and fun experiments like the chevron hook grind that I like to spend time on (even though I hope to never see it take off, they're a pain in the ass to make consistently).





So all up, I make about 3 knives a month and sell them at an average of $550 USD each. Does that qualify me as a full-time maker? Remembering that the shipping costs, failures and material/consumable prices take a huge chunk out of the pie, any sane business person would see this venture as bust. So why keep doing it this way? It goes back to the same reason any hobbyist will give you - _I love doing it!_

Full-time smiths like to show the speed that they can complete a knife (sometimes an hour) and still charge the same price as me... maybe more. I spend that kind of time making sure the handle lines up how I want it.
On the other side you also have full-time makers that spend similar time-frames as me, but with even better materials and a higher level of fit and finish. You can spend upwards of $1k on these beauties. I'm charging well less than them... perhaps I could charge even less if I do a small production run (less time spent per knife, lower F+F). If this happened, I might truly be considered a full-time maker, but realistically that would mean ignoring custom requests, buying more heavy equipment, getting a bigger workspace... the problems roll on.

In short, I don't consider this a full-time gig. The way I currently do things, the costing and time it takes to finish a knife just doesn't make for earning a decent wage. But I'm honoured (and very lucky) to have people out there who appreciate what I do and are willing to pay more for one of my knives than they might spend elsewhere.


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 18, 2020)

Thanks! With you and HSC and Matus participating we have different ends of the spectrum to consider about this.


----------



## ian (Aug 18, 2020)

Kippington said:


> I'm happy to share my current situation.
> 
> I sit in the strange position: On one side, most hobbyists and buyers look at my prices / order list / quality (I hope), and they would consider me a full-time knife maker. On the other side, full-time knife makers would laugh and call me a hobbyist - which boils down to how slowly I make knifes and how I treat the "business".
> 
> ...



Man, that sounds like an ideal life. Make a knife, take some acid, feed the parrot, send some emails... You’ve got it figured out. Please lmk if I’m oversimplifying and romanticizing your life.  

But I’m seriously jealous that you get to take the time to do things perfectly the way you want them, at the speed you want to.


----------



## Kippington (Aug 18, 2020)

ian said:


> Man, that sounds like an ideal life. Make a knife, take some acid, feed the parrot, send some emails... You’ve got it figured out. Please lmk if I’m oversimplifying and romanticizing your life.


I'm very lucky, that's for sure! Unless the aim is to make a decent income haha 



ian said:


> But I’m seriously jealous that you get to take the time to do things perfectly the way you want them, at the speed you want to.


Trying to make improvements every time can be a bit crazy. For example, on this lefty chevron... the grind alone took me *three days* to get it to where I wanted. Involving little details that - if the knife works well - _no-one should notice_. Then realised the price I quoted about a year ago was $400! The customer was extremely kind and paid me more. It's not easy to describe how happy it makes me, knowing that my knives go out to people that appreciate what I've created.


----------



## juice (Aug 18, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> The problem with knifemaking is that now everyone is a Knifemaker and the barriers to entry are very low.


They're still higher than, say, (looks around for examples), journalism (computer/phone), and photography (cheap mirrorless/phone). [1] Obviously, most people need more than that base level to do it WELL, but that's often not a consideration. [2]



LostHighway said:


> It has been my experience that people can, and often do, build a comfortable career without being particularly good at what they do in both high barrier to entry disciplines like medicine, law, or architecture as well as low barrier to entry fields such as landscaping/gardening, carpentry, or presumably knife making.


With a lot of endeavours, being a good businessman is more important than having good skills in the area you purport to be in. (Did I mention photography? And journalism? I think I did 

[1]So, feel free to ask what my last two careers were involved with!

[2]On re-reading that, it looks like I'm disagreeing - I'm not, I'm agreeing wholeheartedly.


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 18, 2020)

Wait... I think I get it. So you were an astronaut and a ballet dancer, right?


----------



## Jville (Aug 18, 2020)

juice said:


> They're still higher than, say, (looks around for examples), journalism (computer/phone), and photography (cheap mirrorless/phone). [1] Obviously, most people need more than that base level to do it WELL, but that's often not a consideration. [2]
> 
> 
> With a lot of endeavours, being a good businessman is more important than having good skills in the area you purport to be in. (Did I mention photography? And journalism? I think I did
> ...


I figured you were a juicer, probably orange, apple etc. My second guess would be steriods.


----------



## ExistentialHero (Aug 18, 2020)

Possibly unpopular opinion: all of these knives should be sold by auction anyway. The knife sells for whatever someone's willing to pay for it, and the maker collects the market value instead of a bunch of money going to flippers.

Ideally this would all be done with second-price/Vickery auctions, but I know math scares a lot of folks so...


----------



## juice (Aug 18, 2020)

ExistentialHero said:


> Possibly unpopular opinion


Wrong thread, then?


----------



## M1k3 (Aug 18, 2020)

juice said:


> They're still higher than, say, (looks around for examples), journalism (computer/phone), and photography (cheap mirrorless/phone). [1] Obviously, most people need more than that base level to do it WELL, but that's often not a consideration. [2]
> 
> 
> With a lot of endeavours, being a good businessman is more important than having good skills in the area you purport to be in. (Did I mention photography? And journalism? I think I did
> ...


I was going to say a juicer but that's already been taken.

For your second career, were you into cruising the freeway in a white bronco?


----------



## tchan001 (Aug 19, 2020)

Juice, you should start up your knife workshop and sell some great hobbyist knives on KKF. You know you are just itching to forge and make something special.


----------



## juice (Aug 19, 2020)

tchan001 said:


> Juice, you should start up your knife workshop and sell some great hobbyist knives on KKF. You know you are just itching to forge and make something special.




I sent a screenshot of this to my wife and she is  because we're about to sell this place and move semi-rural (if we can) onto a couple of acres and have a shed and some space from the neighbours.

And do some knifemaking workshops and so on as an aid to my mental health.

So... apart from the selling part, you might end up being right in a few years


----------



## Matus (Aug 19, 2020)

ExistentialHero said:


> Possibly unpopular opinion: all of these knives should be sold by auction anyway. The knife sells for whatever someone's willing to pay for it, and the maker collects the market value instead of a bunch of money going to flippers.
> 
> Ideally this would all be done with second-price/Vickery auctions, but I know math scares a lot of folks so...



Not sure whether unpopular, but I surely don’t agree. It is up to the maker to price his own product. If they want to auction, it is fine, but I personally would hate to sell just to the highest bidder - even if it would maximize my revenue.


----------



## Bensbites (Aug 19, 2020)

ExistentialHero said:


> Possibly unpopular opinion: all of these knives should be sold by auction anyway. The knife sells for whatever someone's willing to pay for it, and the maker collects the market value instead of a bunch of money going to flippers.
> 
> Ideally this would all be done with second-price/Vickery auctions, but I know math scares a lot of folks so...


Very practical idea.


----------



## Matus (Aug 19, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> Very practical idea.



If you have someone to set it up for you, ideally for free.


----------



## ModRQC (Aug 19, 2020)

If it’s the first time he forges, it will be « special » indeed!


----------



## daveb (Aug 19, 2020)

I would argue that the free market is an auction. Price is simply what a buyer and seller agree that something is worth. If a seller prices low, he won't be able to supply demand. If he prices high, there won't be a demand. Equilibrium will be found.


----------

