# Best benchmark or reference classic 240 mm wa-gyuto knife?



## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

I started a thread about grail knives and received many thoughtful answers, but the thread sounded like it was asking the unanswerable question of how to buy the one knife to end all knife buying. But really, I was hoping to get some benchmarks and frames of reference on what the good knives with a certain characteristic are so I have some points of reference on the knife journey. Yes, I could buy a couple of knives and try them for several weeks, but it would be better to do that with an understanding of what the good starting points are.

Let me try to rephrase the question.

What would you recommend as a good benchmark or reference classic 240 mm wa-gyuto knife, assuming budget is not an issue and assuming decent sharpening skills? This means a generalist, middle-of-the-road gyuto that would generally feel good in hand for both someone knew to Japanese knives and veteran line cooks. Nothing too thick and heavy, nothing too thin. Basically, what are good knives to compare new knives against?


----------



## ojisan (Jul 26, 2020)

If you stick to to wa-handles, Ashi Ginga could be a good starting point.

However, I'd say there is no "classic" wa-gyutos. Most wa-gyutos are relatively new and introduced for non-Japanese markets.
I'd recommend Misono 440 (or UX10), if you want a classic gyuto popular in the Japanese market.


----------



## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

Gesshin Gengetsu. Excellent tradeoff between thinness and food release in a middleweight knife. A bit of a yardstick knife for me. Flattish profile. A bit of taper. The SS version has very nice steel. I assume the white2 version does as well. Only minor downside is that spine and choil need a bit more easing.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

ojisan said:


> However, I'd say there is no "classic" wa-gyutos. Most wa-gyutos are relatively new and introduced for non-Japanese markets.


Obviously, considering Japanese were prohibited from eating meat until 1872.


----------



## ian (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I started a thread about grail knives and received many thoughtful answers, but the thread sounded like it was asking the unanswerable question of how to buy the one knife to end all knife buying. But really, I was hoping to get some benchmarks and frames of reference on what the good knives with a certain characteristic are so I have some points of reference on the knife journey. Yes, I could buy a couple of knives and try them for several weeks, but it would be better to do that with an understanding of what the good starting points are.
> 
> Let me try to rephrase the question.
> 
> What would you recommend as a good benchmark or reference classic 240 mm wa-gyuto knife, assuming budget is not an issue and assuming decent sharpening skills? This means a generalist, middle-of-the-road gyuto that would generally feel good in hand for both someone knew to Japanese knives and veteran line cooks. Nothing too thick and heavy, nothing too thin. Basically, what are good knives to compare new knives against?



Ok, here’s what you should do. Buy an Ashi or Gesshin Ginga (light and lasery). Buy something a little more beefy, like this Wakui:






Gyuto


Gyuto Wakui Blade length: 245 mm



www.cleancut.eu





or direct order something from Heiji if you don’t mind a few month wait.

And then if you want, also buy a Yoshikane, from cleancut. Either one of the shirogami ones or the knife labeled “Kashima Sanjo”, which is also made by Yoshikane I believe.

Try those three knives (which you could consider as benchmarks, I suppose) and get back to us. There are so many great knives out there, all of them different, and you are never going to understand what you like until you buy something! All these endless questions are kind of pointless. You’re never going to be able to find the perfect information that will allow you to make the perfect decision, because there is no perfect decision.

Edit: or find a local store in Singapore. I don’t know what’s available in your area, which is why I’m suggesting stores in the US and EU.


----------



## IsoJ (Jul 26, 2020)

It seems that you are trying to hit a jackpot, first knife/buy and it is perfect. I believe there is no such a thing as a perfect knife. Just a matter of taste. If you just want a one good knife, buy some that has allready been recommended and enjoy it and buy another one in when the first has become a petty. Or then you can take a hobby/journey if you have the time and money. Buy one laser, one middle weight and one heavy workhorse and use them. Then you know what your likings are for the beginning and then buy new ones and sell the ones you don't like or start collecting. I wouldn't overthink it if I were you. After all, it is just a knife and the person who holds the knife, cooks the food. Good luck to you whatever you choose to pick.


----------



## ojisan (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Obviously, considering Japanese were prohibited from eating meat until 1872.



I meant, classic gyutos have western handles. This means if you want a "plain" profiled gyuto, considering yo-gyutos gives you more options, like Misono, Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef, Masahiro, and so on (may be Tojiro as well?). Those are good knives, not too expensive, not too cheap, durable, general purpose, and used by a lot of pros, but with yo-handles. Those are mass-produced knives, but that is good for benchmarking, while wa-gyutos tend to be "artisan" and have some characteristics.


----------



## MrHiggins (Jul 26, 2020)

Try a Sukenari. I owned one in HAP40. It was such a middle of the road knife (in a good way) that I always said it felt like it was designed by a committee. You could do a lot worse than having a Sukenari as your first and only knife.

What others have said, though, is obviously correct. You won't be able to figure out your preferences by asking online questions. And preferences change over time, so what you love today may not be your thing a year from now. 

Good luck!


----------



## daveb (Jul 26, 2020)

I think I know where you're going.

Best "benchmark" from my gathering is prob Kono HD2. Others will be lighter, some others will have more heft, some will be thinner, some thicker, it's sorta stainless but will patina. 

Newer Gengetsu or Amekiri will fit this role as will Tanaka Ginsen or Cladded Blue.

Not "average" knives by any means, just solid representatives.


----------



## ThinMan (Jul 26, 2020)

Konosuke FM

They are available, not too terribly expensive and excellent cutters and excellent representatives of the Sakai style.

I prefer the ebony and horn handles over the Khii Studio handles some of them come with but either are fine to start.


----------



## ian (Jul 26, 2020)

I think we should be suggesting <= $300 knives, personally... or the suggestion to just pick up a Misono carbon is probably wise. Whatever. I think I’ll stop following all these threads now until a purchase is made...


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

ian said:


> I think we should be suggesting <= $300 knives, personally...


why?


----------



## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

@josemartinlopez , rather than starting a million "which is the grail knife" threads, why don't you fill in the questionaire and see if we can't help you choose a knife?






The "Which Knife Should I Buy?" Questionnaire - v2


Please refer to the Kitchen Knife Knowledge subforum and the Kitchen Knife Glossary thread (LINK) for general information, including the knife types and other terminology used in this questionnaire. LOCATION What country are you in? KNIFE TYPE What type of knife are you interested in...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

I did.


----------



## ian (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> why?



K, last post.

Just because if you don’t have much experience and don’t know exactly what you want then it’s stupid to go fancier. The more expensive knives aren’t necessarily going to cut better, they’re often just more expensive for a variety of other reasons, eg rarity, fancy finish, being made in a small shop, etc... Some of them have better steel, but you won’t be able to really appreciate the difference until you’ve been sharpening for a while. I’ve already said it many times, but the only way you’re going to find out what you like it to buy something. If you’ve got some funds, pick up a Misono or Mac or something or some wa handled knives like the Ashi, Wakui, Yoshikane, or even Watanabe if you want to spend a little more. Then come back and talk to us in a couple months.


----------



## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I did.


So you did. Was there a problem with the answers you got?


----------



## ian (Jul 26, 2020)

Nemo said:


> @josemartinlopez , rather than starting a million "which is the grail knife" threads, why don't you fill in the questionaire and see if we can't help you choose a knife?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As much as I appreciate this post, “start another thread” isn’t exactly the advice I would give....


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

ian said:


> The more expensive knives aren’t necessarily going to cut better, they’re often just more expensive for a variety of other reasons, eg rarity, fancy finish, being made in a small shop, etc... Some of them have better steel, but you won’t be able to really appreciate the difference until you’ve been sharpening for a while.


Got it, thanks!


----------



## parbaked (Jul 26, 2020)

ian said:


> As much as I appreciate this post, “start another thread” isn’t exactly the advice I would give....



I already suggested the OP visit Razorsharp in Singapore and play with some actual knives, but it got no traction...


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

parbaked said:


> I already suggested the OP visit Razorsharp in Singapore and play with some actual knives, but it got no traction...


They're closed on Sundays and were closed until recently because the city was shut down.


----------



## Matus (Jul 26, 2020)

I don't really have one - there are way to few makers that can make a good convex grind and they are expensive - the rest is wide bevel grinds of some sort (with a shinogi or with shinogi blended over) or lasers. Many wide bevel knives are lacking in the distal taper department (especially thick tips are very common), most lasers are, well, lasers - as long as the edge is thin and the grind is not completely flat they are all pretty similar - some better than others. Different knives have different strengths and weaknesses - and those are largely subjective. You just need to actually use several different knives, learn what you like, allow your skill and experience to change your preferences and tastes.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

Matus said:


> there are way to few makers that can make a good convex grind and they are expensive - the rest is wide bevel grinds of some sort (with a shinogi or with shinogi blended over) or lasers. Many wide bevel knives are lacking in the distal taper department (especially thick tips are very common), most lasers are, well, lasers - as long as the edge is thin and the grind is not completely flat they are all pretty similar - some better than others.


Thanks, this is a great summary for how to look at those choil/taper shots.


----------



## Cliff (Jul 26, 2020)

I think HD2 and Ginga are benchmark lasers but not 249 Gyutos. For me, that would be a KS. You could think of benchmarks in different styles and weight classes -- Wat and Toyama are also benchmarks, in a different style. What constitutes too heavy, to you?


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

Sorry, what's a 249 gyuto?


----------



## daveb (Jul 26, 2020)

249? Sweet effin Jesus - you don't have to know knives to recognize a typo.

He's saying (incorrectly) that a KS is a benchmark 240.

We have an expression in the states "fill in name would make a preacher take a drink" Do you know it?

Yr making me thirsty.  

Buy a knife. Any knife. Own your own benchmark.

BTW KS's suck. Or is the wrong thread?


----------



## Matus (Jul 26, 2020)

No, this is the right thread


----------



## btbyrd (Jul 26, 2020)

Knives vary across a range of parameters and the best way to get a sense of what you prefer is to use a wide range of knives. All knives are compromises and there is no "best." There's "better" and "worse" in particular respects relative to particular purposes and preferences. No single knife is going to provide a good idea of what the "best" profile/grind/thickness/taper/food release/handle/balance/steel/heat treatment is for your purposes. You just have to try some out. You can't just read your way into knowledge that comes primarily through experience. You can get a sense of the things that matter by reading other's accounts, but at some point you just have to jump in and use some freaking knives instead of talking them to death. 

Try to keep in mind that what's better or worse depends as much on you (and your desires, skills, preferences and purposes) as it does on the blade. Whether someone should choose a bunka, santoku, or 180mm gyuto (for example) is a question about the user, not the knife. The same goes for whether or not someone should buy a 300mm gyuto. You're not going to know the answer to those questions until you have some first-hand experience from which you can form a sense of your own preferences. Without experience, you're mostly a blank slate -- you don't know what you prefer or don't prefer -- and there are no "right" answers. It's time to use a few knives (or more) and see what works for you.


----------



## M1k3 (Jul 26, 2020)

Yoshikane. Gengetsu. Tanaka from KnS.


----------



## RockyBasel (Jul 26, 2020)

Heiji and Toyoma are great knives and the former can be more reasonable in price. These two represent a high level of craftsmanship and non commercial production. You can’t go wrong with either maker. It’s hard to beat those knives, no matter who the producer, of course, personal choices will take over at this high-quality level of artisanal products. - so people may prefer other makers, but the quality of knife is unlikely to be significantly different in my view. This will depend upon finer points, preferences, and also usage and fit for purpose.


----------



## McMan (Jul 26, 2020)

ian said:


> Ok, here’s what you should do. Buy an Ashi or Gesshin Ginga (light and lasery). Buy something a little more beefy, like this Wakui:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





daveb said:


> I think I know where you're going.
> 
> Best "benchmark" from my gathering is prob Kono HD2. Others will be lighter, some others will have more heft, some will be thinner, some thicker, it's sorta stainless but will patina.
> 
> ...





parbaked said:


> I already suggested the OP visit Razorsharp in Singapore and play with some actual knives...



Add these responses up and that's my answer  You're fortunate to have RazorSharp in your backyard, and I think there's a lot of value in going and handling a fair amount of knives to see what's up and where your preferences are. I don't have that luxury because there's not a store like that in my backyard.


----------



## ian (Jul 26, 2020)

McMan said:


> Add these responses up and that's my answer  You're fortunate to have RazorSharp in your backyard, and I think there's a lot of value in going and handling a fair amount of knives to see what's up and where your preferences are. I don't have that luxury because there's not a store like that in my backyard.



You ever go to northwestern cutlery? I went there once 12 yrs ago, but don’t remember anything about it.


----------



## McMan (Jul 26, 2020)

ian said:


> You ever go to northwestern cutlery? I went there once 12 yrs ago, but don’t remember anything about it.


Used to go a lot, but haven't been for a decade. Good for the basics.


----------



## Cliff (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Sorry, what's a 249 gyuto?



Yep, just a typo. The KS is definitely over-priced, used to be super sought after. But I think it's a classic profile with a laser-like front third and a stiffer heel than true lasers. The 240-version is oversized, more like 250.


----------



## RockyBasel (Jul 26, 2020)

McMan said:


> Add these responses up and that's my answer  You're fortunate to have RazorSharp in your backyard, and I think there's a lot of value in going and handling a fair amount of knives to see what's up and where your preferences are. I don't have that luxury because there's not a store like that in my backyard.



yes, and razor sharp, they have Y. Tanaka knives in both Mogaki and KU finish - he is another great craftsman you could try. I almost ordered one, and still may. But I think I got distracted by a Togashi-Tosa Blue purchase. This reminds me, I need to get that Y. Tanaka. There is also a Shigeki Tanaka, but I am talking about Yoshikazu Tanaka. JNS stones carry Y. Tanaka as well. Know your Tanaka’s is the main takeaway here


----------



## tincent (Jul 26, 2020)

These threads remind me of customers asking for recommendations, not liking your recommendations, and then rewording their question. Usually with more words.


----------



## chiffonodd (Jul 26, 2020)

Classic all around food destroyers, in my opinion, are the sanjo style knives mentioned here (gengetsu, yoshikane, wakui, kashima sanjo, etc.). They do everything right because they have some meat on the spine (~3.5mm) but are still ground very thin in terms of tapering down to the edge and longitudinally to the tip. Consequently, they have just enough weight to ease cutting tasks while also being extremely smooth cutters thanks to how thin they are behind the edge. The very thin tip is also excellent for cutting onion and shallot. They also are very good in the profile department with a nice flat spot for push cutting and a relatively pointy tip for detail work. The convex grind also provides decent food release without wedging. I also personally like the height for a 240 at about 48mm and the length not being oversized. Others like more height and length and might therefore go for a kono YS or equivalent if you can find one without all the cosmetics.

In other words, they are excellent all around midweights and although other knives may excell in specific aspects (e.g., certain wide bevel knives may have better food release, lasers like the kono HD or ashi ginga may be true onion and herb destroyers, and heavier knives like toyama with beefier grinds may have easier plow-through of certain ingredients), it's really difficult to think of a knife that is as good of a benchmark, all around reference point as the gengetsu etc. I think that this style is basically the perfect all-around gyuto.

But as always, YMMV


----------



## Barmoley (Jul 26, 2020)

Let's use car analogy, since we all know these work for every situation.

What would you recommend as a good benchmark or reference classic car?

Now, does this question make any sense? I know a bunch of you will start shouting out your favorites, but can you really compare let's say a Lotus Elise to Ford f150? Can you say that one is better than the other or that one is a benchmark for all cars? OP has been asking many questions and he received many excellent answers, he continues to not listen to what anyone is suggesting. This makes me think that he is basically trolling, so just stop feeding the troll. By all means if you guys are enjoying these discussions go on, but just recognize that the OP is not looking for an answer. I am very much for helping new members, but at some point the person asking for help needs to actually be willing to listen.


----------



## Jeezuinn (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> They're closed on Sundays and were closed until recently because the city was shut down.



Razor sharp is actually open apart from Sundays,was there twice in past 2 months to get stuffs. People there are very open to letting you try the knife. You will have your questions answered faster after actually handling them because ideal size, weight, profile, comfort and all really differs from person to person


----------



## dafox (Jul 26, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Gesshin Gengetsu. Excellent tradeoff between thinness and food release in a middleweight knife. A bit of a yardstick knife for me. Flattish profile. A bit of taper. The SS version has very nice steel. I assume the white2 version does as well. Only minor downside is that spine and choil need a bit more easing.


This!


----------



## NO ChoP! (Jul 26, 2020)

There's probably a benchmark in every style.
Western: Misono Dragon
Laser: HD
Icon: KS or even Mizuno
Sanjo style: Mazaki
Takefu style: Kanehiro AS
Tosa KU style: Zakuri
Off the shelf: Mac
Bang for buck: Tanaka


----------



## juice (Jul 27, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> They're closed on Sundays and were closed until recently because the city was shut down.


So they're open today? Go there today, and have a play.


----------



## DHunter86 (Jul 27, 2020)

parbaked said:


> I already suggested the OP visit Razorsharp in Singapore and play with some actual knives, but it got no traction...



I'd second this, Jo and David are really helpful, and they do carry quite a huge variety. And as mentioned, they never really closed during the past 2 months, I was in and out to pick up some sharpening essentials. 

Also, I remember you posting that you received a very decent set of Mutsumi Hinoura's OEM knives, maybe start with those and see how they work out for you...






Help identifying these smaller, white steel knives...


So I posted about the "Archibald London" carbon knife set I received, and people said it was a great but basic Misono (also sold as Kiya No. 6) Swedish steel set available on Amazon. The giver was not amused, took them back, and gave me these instead. I am not sure what they are. All the giver...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## M1k3 (Jul 27, 2020)

juice said:


> So they're open today? Go there today, and have a play.


My good [insert preferred pronoun], what level Bard are you?


----------



## Jeezuinn (Jul 27, 2020)

DHunter86 said:


> Also, I remember you posting that you received a very decent set of Mutsumi Hinoura's OEM knives, maybe start with those and see how they work out for you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agree with this. You are lucky since you do not have to buy a knife for now. Use the Hinoura,and if you like it then all is good. If you don't like it,you will be able to tell what you dislike about it,and there you have your answer to what sets the benchmark for you


----------



## juice (Jul 27, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> My good [insert preferred pronoun], what level Bard are you?


That's what I say. Hey hey hey.


----------



## simar (Jul 27, 2020)

Are you are looking for a story about why something is going to be a good benchmark for you compare to the rest of your experiences? 

You could chase after some elusive knife like a Konosuke Fujiyama Togo Reigo and set that up as your benchmark. Its going to have refinement in its look and feel and the fit and finish should meet or exceed expectations. Its not the best for every use but its good enough for most folks.

The story behind this knife has been wonderfully writen and published by @Omega Konosuke Fujiyama; A History

alternatively you could stop chasing the grails and find something that excites you enough to use it.


----------



## M1k3 (Jul 27, 2020)

To quote a great KKF philosopher:



CiderBear said:


> But I won't know unless I get to try one, arghhhhh


----------



## lemeneid (Jul 27, 2020)

IF budget is of no issue, try any of these knives. Tried/owned them all and would happily have any of these in my knife drawer. All great lookers and top performers with a range of lasers to workhorses 

Teruyasu Fujiwara Denka
Watanabe/Toyama Honyaki
Tsukasa River Jump
Konosuke Fujiyama Damascus B#1/AS
Ashi Honyaki
Kato Kurouchi

Otherwise, just hit up Razorsharp.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 27, 2020)

Thanks, this looks like a great list to start with.

By the way, why do you specifically recommend honyakis? I thought being honyaki had little to do with how the knife cuts?


----------



## RockyBasel (Jul 27, 2020)

I thi


chiffonodd said:


> Classic all around food destroyers, in my opinion, are the sanjo style knives mentioned here (gengetsu, yoshikane, wakui, kashima sanjo, etc.). They do everything right because they have some meat on the spine (~3.5mm) but are still ground very thin in terms of tapering down to the edge and longitudinally to the tip. Consequently, they have just enough weight to ease cutting tasks while also being extremely smooth cutters thanks to how thin they are behind the edge. The very thin tip is also excellent for cutting onion and shallot. They also are very good in the profile department with a nice flat spot for push cutting and a relatively pointy tip for detail work. The convex grind also provides decent food release without wedging. I also personally like the height for a 240 at about 48mm and the length not being oversized. Others like more height and length and might therefore go for a kono YS or equivalent if you can find one without all the cosmetics.
> 
> In other words, they are excellent all around midweights and although other knives may excell in specific aspects (e.g., certain wide bevel knives may have better food release, lasers like the kono HD or ashi ginga may be true onion and herb destroyers, and heavier knives like toyama with beefier grinds may have easier plow-through of certain ingredients), it's really difficult to think of a knife that is as good of a benchmark, all around reference point as the gengetsu etc. I think that this style is basically the perfect all-around gyuto.
> 
> But as always, YMMV



I think you have nailed it. I cannot add to this other than say Boom!


----------



## valgard (Jul 27, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Sanjo style: Mazaki



Hell no! Yoshikane, Wakui, Hinoura, whatever, but something with consistent quality


----------



## valgard (Jul 27, 2020)

I think you should buy a Kato western Damascus gyuto or a Yo Shigefusa Kitaeji gyuto.

For a Sakai knife go for a Tatsuo Ikeda honyaki gyuto.


----------



## BillHanna (Jul 27, 2020)

valgard said:


> Honoura,


For the purposes of the thread; would father and son be relatively equal?


----------



## valgard (Jul 27, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> For the purposes of the thread; would father and son be relatively equal?



If being serious, I'd go with the son, cheap for the quality and easy to find. It's the same workshop and the father only seems to work on some of the high end stuff and outdoor knives.


----------



## RockyBasel (Jul 27, 2020)

valgard said:


> I think you should buy a Kato western Damascus gyuto or a Yo Shigefusa Kitaeji gyuto.
> 
> For a Sakai knife go for a Tatsuo Ikeda honyaki gyuto.



let me know where to buy these knives and I will buy them! These are the elusive unicorns and priced accordingly! Seriously, if you have a source, let me know


----------



## simar (Jul 27, 2020)

I totally forgot about going the honyaki route, if price is no object then why not. Several options out there heck you could even try to commission some of the sword makers to make you a custom blade if you can afford it.


----------



## juice (Jul 27, 2020)

simar said:


> you could even try to commission some of the sword makers to make you a custom blade if you can afford it.


I don't think this is the best option out there - you have to know what you want for that to work.


----------



## RockyBasel (Jul 27, 2020)

juice said:


> I don't think this is the best option out there - you have to know what you want for that to work.



and sometimes they take many months, or don’t respond if they are busy. Watanabe however does and can make you a great knife - easy to choose from his website - and it arrives within 2- 3 weeks. Perhaps he may not be a sword smith, but he makes good knives


----------



## ma_sha1 (Jul 27, 2020)

Toyanabe, the benchmark of benchmarks.


----------



## ian (Jul 27, 2020)

If price is no object, you should go buy a 200 ft yacht, hire a KKF member as a cook, and just chill the f out.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 28, 2020)

Who do you recommend?


----------



## Qapla' (Jul 28, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Who do you recommend?



Just _cut some foods_ oredi lah.


----------



## chiffonodd (Jul 28, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> Just _cut some foods_ oredi lah.



Whether or not the OP is trolling, I'm still enjoying the discussion lol


----------



## juice (Jul 28, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> Just _cut some foods_ oredi lah.


I appreciated the change to Singlish


----------



## simar (Jul 28, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Who do you recommend?


Depends on what you like...


----------



## M1k3 (Jul 28, 2020)

1. Go into razor sharp.
2. Pick out some knives to try out.
3. Do your best mall ninja routine.
4. Pick a knife roll.
5. Buy the knives and roll you like.
6. Go home and use them.
7. When dull, see step 1.


----------



## Qapla' (Jul 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> 1. Go into razor sharp.
> 2. Pick out some knives to try out.
> 3. Do your best mall ninja routine.
> 4. Pick a knife roll.
> ...


I'd modify #7 to "When the knives get dull, get some actual experience sharpening them.", and shift "see step 1" to #8. 

I wonder if the forum's Singaporeans could translate that sequence into Singlish?


----------



## zizirex (Jul 28, 2020)

Just buy the knife lah.. don't play play too much with this forum. if you want play play just go to Geylang.. but eiyy it is still Covid.
Just go to RazorSharp or maybe contact with KitchinTools, maybe you find SHIOK deals arhh.


----------



## M1k3 (Jul 28, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> I'd modify #7 to "When the knives get dull, get some actual experience sharpening them.", and shift "see step 1" to #8.
> 
> I wonder if the forum's Singaporeans could translate that sequence into Singlish?


Could. Buy knife first.


----------



## Jeezuinn (Jul 28, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> I wonder if the forum's Singaporeans could translate that sequence into Singlish?



Buy liao then talk


----------



## ian (Jul 28, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Who do you recommend?



Yea, depends on what you want to eat. For bread, hire @Michi. For beige food, hire @Carl Kotte. For cajun, @labor of love . For bento boxes, @Xenif. For fancy plates and colors, @Dutch chef. For seafood, @Boondocker. If you like nutmeg in everything, there’s always @nutmeg. I will make you breakfast potatoes. @panda will get you wasted. If you make a mistake and hire a bad exec chef, @M1k3 will ‘take care of him’ for you.


----------



## lemeneid (Jul 28, 2020)

Jeezuinn said:


> Buy liao then talk


Bo hoot bo lumpa?


----------



## daveb (Jul 28, 2020)

PM sent to Panda


----------



## labor of love (Jul 28, 2020)

ian said:


> Yea, depends on what you want to eat. For bread, hire @Michi. For beige food, hire @Carl Kotte. For cajun, @labor of love . For bento boxes, @Xenif. For fancy plates and colors, @Dutch chef. For seafood, @Boondocker. If you like nutmeg in everything, there’s always @nutmeg. I will make you breakfast potatoes. @panda will get you wasted. If you make a mistake and hire a bad exec chef, @M1k3 will ‘take care of him’ for you.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 28, 2020)

Is @valgard on the market? I peeked at his Insta and he has incredible pictures of brisket there.


----------



## ian (Jul 28, 2020)

labor of love said:


> View attachment 88598



I am so taken by the cuteness of this animal that I will now shut the f up.


----------



## ian (Jul 28, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Is @valgard on the market? I peeked at his Insta and he has incredible pictures of brisket there.



I was thinking about how to include him, but I couldn’t think of a way to pigeonhole his type of cooking. Since he has the funds for 10,000,000 jnats, though, I suspect he’s not for sale.


----------



## valgard (Jul 28, 2020)

ian said:


> I was thinking about how to include him, but I couldn’t think of a way to pigeonhole his type of cooking. Since he has the funds for 10,000,000 jnats, though, I suspect he’s not for sale.


Lolz


----------



## valdim (Jul 28, 2020)

ian said:


> If price is no object, you should go buy a 200 ft yacht, hire a KKF member as a cook, and just chill the f out.


I apply for the co-chilling out position...
Free cocktail-buddy role included.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Jul 28, 2020)

Can you bring the yacht?


----------



## valdim (Jul 28, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Can you bring the yacht?


This question is for the yacht's forum, which is somewhere else, not on KKF...


----------



## M1k3 (Jul 28, 2020)

valdim said:


> I apply for the co-chilling out position...
> Free cocktail-buddy role included.


I'm thinking you'll have to contact @panda about that position. Sounds like his department


----------



## RockyBasel (Jul 28, 2020)

ian said:


> If price is no object, you should go buy a 200 ft yacht, hire a KKF member as a cook, and just chill the f out.


Haha!


----------



## valdim (Jul 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I'm thinking you'll have to contact @panda about that position. Sounds like his department


Nah...Always avoid middlemen if possible...


----------



## panda (Jul 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I'm thinking you'll have to contact @panda about that position. Sounds like his department


most people would die with me as their drinking buddy.


----------



## parbaked (Jul 28, 2020)

panda said:


> most people would die with me as their drinking buddy.


I worked a little in Korea.
Going drinking with Koreans reminds me of that thing where they let a spectator take a few passenger laps at a NASCAR event.
Both involve puke and feeling like you might die...


----------



## ian (Jul 28, 2020)

panda said:


> most people would die with me as their drinking buddy.



you and @osakajoe could probably take on the entire rest of kkf.


----------



## M1k3 (Jul 28, 2020)

I call designated driver!


----------



## Boondocker (Jul 28, 2020)

I don't even like fish


----------



## juice (Jul 28, 2020)

parbaked said:


> Going drinking with Koreans reminds me of that thing where they let a spectator take a few passenger laps at a NASCAR event.
> Both involve puke and feeling like you might die...


Back when I was a TV journo I did a few laps in a speedway (dirt) car - 160km/h a few cm away from the large concrete was was AWESOME! A few years earlier I did some laps in a V8 Supercar (more NASCAResque), and it was more fun, and had much better G-forces, but for the feeling of speed, that wall you could reach out and touch was hard to beat...



Boondocker said:


> I don't even like fish


ME TOO! BYE!

(I don't mind some seafood, but man, I hate fish. Which is a bummer when you're low-carb


----------



## chiffonodd (Jul 28, 2020)

parbaked said:


> I worked a little in Korea.
> Going drinking with Koreans reminds me of that thing where they let a spectator take a few passenger laps at a NASCAR event.
> Both involve puke and feeling like you might die...



Or the tv journos who go up with the blue angels.


----------



## panda (Jul 28, 2020)

Boondocker said:


> I don't even like fish


sea don't like to hear that


----------



## M1k3 (Jul 28, 2020)

juice said:


> Back when I was a TV journo I did a few laps in a speedway (dirt) car - 160km/h a few cm away from the large concrete was was AWESOME! A few years earlier I did some laps in a V8 Supercar (more NASCAResque), and it was more fun, and had much better G-forces, but for the feeling of speed, that wall you could reach out and touch was hard to beat...
> 
> 
> ME TOO! BYE!
> ...


That V8 supercar has got to be one of the best race series around. At least as a spectator in my opinion.


----------



## juice (Jul 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> That V8 supercar has got to be one of the best race series around. At least as a spectator in my opinion.


Yeah, agreed. I don't think it's as good now, given they all use the same base chassis ("Car Of The Future") but I get it from a development cost perspective. It's like knives - costs run wild if you do nothing to reign them in, and the very best gets priced out of reach and you have fewer people able to compete/be included. So they standardise somewhat, and we can all play in the mid-level


----------



## Boondocker (Jul 28, 2020)

Dinner tonight


----------



## iimi (Jul 29, 2020)

parbaked said:


> I worked a little in Korea.
> Going drinking with Koreans reminds me of that thing where they let a spectator take a few passenger laps at a NASCAR event.
> Both involve puke and feeling like you might die...


Visiting my family in Korea is hilariously fun. Most of my uncles drink soju for breakfast, I don't know how they're still alive. I'm headed down the same path though, so here's to hoping my liver has their titanium genetics.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Aug 7, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> Buy one laser, one middle weight and one heavy workhorse and use them.





daveb said:


> I think I know where you're going.
> 
> Best "benchmark" from my gathering is prob Kono HD2. Others will be lighter, some others will have more heft, some will be thinner, some thicker, it's sorta stainless but will patina.
> 
> ...


Going back to this, think this answered my question quite well. Something in the middle, familiar and of solid quality like a Tanaka 240 gyuto (and others cited) would be a great "benchmark" for someone new to Japanese knives, and one can get the stainless or stainless clad versions to ease entry.


----------



## daveb (Aug 7, 2020)

What should have I said, 17 times, to convey that?


----------



## josemartinlopez (Aug 7, 2020)

Probably nothing, this is just me catching up and rereading your advice a couple of times.


----------



## daveb (Aug 7, 2020)

Reading is good. Listening is good. I've never learned a thing while talking


----------



## josemartinlopez (Aug 7, 2020)

Yes, I read all your responses. If I didn't respond, it meant I read it more than once and was thinking about it and looking up the things referred to.


----------



## rogue108 (Aug 9, 2020)

This is an impossible question to answer. Everyone's idea of what a benchmark knife or favorite knife is completely subjective. 
I benchmark a knife off of the different characteristics I want. Those characteristics change as I try new knives and my taste's change. Half of the fun is buying knives or trying different knives is to find what's out there and what you like.

Take the general recommendations and what you think you want then go shopping. My only advice is you don't need to spend a lot of money to get a great knife especially when you don't know exactly what you are looking for yet


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 9, 2020)

@josemartinlopez Based on the comments and your own research, which knife in your opinion is the "Best benchmark or reference classic 240 mm wa-gyuto knife"?


----------



## josemartinlopez (Aug 9, 2020)

See above


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 9, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> See above



"See above" what? Don't understand.


----------



## btbyrd (Aug 9, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Going back to this, think this answered my question quite well. Something in the middle, familiar and of solid quality like a Tanaka 240 gyuto (and others cited) would be a great "benchmark" for someone new to Japanese knives, and one can get the stainless or stainless clad versions to ease entry.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 9, 2020)

Cheers. So, 240 Tanaka is @josemartinlopez 's "Best benchmark or reference classic 240 mm wa-gyuto knife."

Very subjective.


----------



## daveb (Aug 9, 2020)

Anything with the word "Best" in it is going to be very subjective, especially to those that don't agree with the opinion.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Aug 9, 2020)

Well, "best benchmark" wouldn't mean best performing. Quite the opposite, it would mean something best in class that is familiar and accessible enough that it can be used as a reference point.

So the posts on this thread that didn't try to float a grail knife but tried to identify a "reference" knife for a certain profile or region were very helpful.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Aug 9, 2020)

Trying to read threads on the forums for the first time, the most difficult things was finding a place to start. It's not second nature to you to understand the profile and region of each knife, and you have to look up all the names thrown around in every sentence. Silly as it sounds, even though this was surprising to @daveb, just mentally dividing knives into heavy/workhorse, middleweight and light/laser took a long time for me (note this mental split is not in the knife help form), and things were easier once I began thinking using that split.

If I were to think of benchmarks to try to understand these three groups for myself, after reading countless posts, I would pick something like:

Workhorse: Watanabe
Middleweight: Tanaka
Laser: Suisin Inox Honyaki (or Ashi Ginga)



valgard said:


> Hell no! Yoshikane, Wakui, Hinoura, whatever, but something with consistent quality



Then maybe think about a reference knife per region. I thought @valgard has the right idea, and I'd pick (Mutsumi) Hinoura as an established and familiar name with unquestioned quality. Mazaki is too new and the profile is arguably not settled yet.


----------

