# "Thinning behind the edge"?



## Salty dog

A phrase I've been hearing a lot lately. To be honest I'm confused?

It may seem like an obvious question but could someone explain it to me?


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## cheezit

Laying the knife flat on the stone and thinning the steel behind what is making the initial cut. The idea is to prevent the steel behind the edge from getting progressively thicker so you have both an acute secondary and primary edge.


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## Mrmnms

Salty dog said:


> A phrase I've been hearing a lot lately. To be honest I'm confused?
> 
> It may seem like an obvious question but could someone explain it to me?



You messin with us?


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## Chuckles

http://youtu.be/3jsTtnidY3w

http://youtu.be/twP_05UEHIM


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## gic

I confess I am/was a bit confused as well because I think people use the term for two different activities, no? 

Namely, 

(1)Literally thinning behind the edge for example when one lowers the angle, sharpens, and then raises the angle a wee bit and puts on a microbevel with the final stone?

and

(2)Thinning up the surface of the blade, keeping the knife really really flat against the stone (<10 degrees??) for example and grinds away up to the shinogi line or even grinds away at the whole width of the blade to change the geometry of the knife.

Or am I missing something??


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## cheezit

Neither....

3) Laying the kitchen knife flat, literally flat on the stone, like, 0 degrees.


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## K-Fed

This is a picture of a mizuno I once had while it was in the thinning stages. You can thin behind the edge at any angle you're comfortable with really the lower you go the thinner your edge will be. I don't usually lay the entire blade "flat" but rather thin at around 2 degrees or so. Just a c-hair off the stone with the spine. Changes the geometry a touch but leaves a bit of convexity that I like.


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## CrisAnderson27

gic said:


> I confess I am/was a bit confused as well because I think people use the term for two different activities, no?
> 
> Namely,
> 
> (1)Literally thinning behind the edge for example when one lowers the angle, sharpens, and then raises the angle a wee bit and puts on a microbevel with the final stone?
> 
> and
> 
> (2)Thinning up the surface of the blade, keeping the knife really really flat against the stone (<10 degrees??) for example and grinds away up to the shinogi line or even grinds away at the whole width of the blade to change the geometry of the knife.
> 
> Or am I missing something??



Either can be thinning behind the edge, depending on the knife design and your intended purpose.


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## MowgFace

I guess saying "behind the edge" is redundant if you are thinning the knife. The whole knife is behind the edge. Where else are you going to thin it?


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## gic

You know that is a very good insight. Ergo shouldn't we say: thinning a knife for effecting the geometry whereas thinning behind the edge should mean just affecting the actual edge as in my example of low angle + applying microbevel??


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## panda

thinning behind the edge means shrinking the lower calf and ankles of your knife. kankles on a knife = crappy cutter.


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## mkriggen

panda said:


> thinning behind the edge means shrinking the lower calf and ankles of your knife. kankles on a knife = crappy cutter.



Ok, that made me smile:ggodjob:


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## Squilliam

For me it means wearing away the steel at an angle somewhere around 4 degrees


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## spaceconvoy




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## toddnmd

Nice pics, SC.


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## TheDispossessed

I have been tweaking my sharpening routine for some time, because i'm still a beginner (1.5 years now almost daily). I feel most satisfied with the current approach:
Thin the bottom 1/4" of my gyuto once a week, symmetrically on a 400 grit stone.
Keep up the edge through the week on a 4k stone at a much higher angle, creating a 1mm bevel, symmetrically again.
pull through a cork and strop on newsprint laid on the 4k stone (too lazy to buy a proper strop kit).

when i wasn't thinning behind the edge, my knife cut like crap. 
when i sharpened it asymmetrically, it cut like crap (steering).
when i didn't apply the small bevel at the edge, it got destroyed on the board (and was miserable to sharpen and touch up).

the way i see it, the poly boards most of us have to use at work will destroy and edge at some point during the day, at which point you are left more with the function of the knife's geometry. a slightly dull edge and thin knife will still perform admirably if you don't get a chance to touch it up.

plus, making a 'shinogi' line on your gyuto is fun.


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## NO ChoP!

I'm still a firm believer that many are too quick to remove a bunch of metal. Why thin and sharpen so frequently? Does ones knife really need a full progression starting all the way down to low grit full thinning every week? I like to try and do as little metal removal as possible, increasing my knifes longevity. I do agree that some knives need a bit of tuning, and thinning is all part of upkeep; that being said, I only resort to a full progression when my actual bevel has deteriorated, which takes a ton of abuse to achieve. Usually touch ups will get me through for a very, very long time.


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## Mrmnms

+1


NO ChoP! said:


> I'm still a firm believer that many are too quick to remove a bunch of metal. Why thin and sharpen so frequently? Does ones knife really need a full progression starting all the way down to low grit full thinning every week? I like to try and do as little metal removal as possible, increasing my knifes longevity. I do agree that some knives need a bit of tuning, and thinning is all part of upkeep; that being said, I only resort to a full progression when my actual bevel has deteriorated, which takes a ton of abuse to achieve. Usually touch ups will get me through for a very, very long time.


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## K-Fed

NO ChoP! said:


> I'm still a firm believer that many are too quick to remove a bunch of metal. Why thin and sharpen so frequently? Does ones knife really need a full progression starting all the way down to low grit full thinning every week? I like to try and do as little metal removal as possible, increasing my knifes longevity. I do agree that some knives need a bit of tuning, and thinning is all part of upkeep; that being said, I only resort to a full progression when my actual bevel has deteriorated, which takes a ton of abuse to achieve. Usually touch ups will get me through for a very, very long time.


+2
I haven't had to actually go through the full progression on my knives for months. Once they're set up how I like em touch ups on finishing stones, usually my little nakayama that I keep with me at work, keep my edges alive and kicking for a loooong time.


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## Leer1217

K-Fed said:


> Just a c-hair off the stone with the spine. Changes the geometry a touch but leaves a bit of convexity that I like.



i love that you used that "measurement". i rarely hear this outside of the kitchen. haha


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## cclin

NO ChoP! said:


> I'm still a firm believer that many are too quick to remove a bunch of metal. Why thin and sharpen so frequently? Does ones knife really need a full progression starting all the way down to low grit full thinning every week? I like to try and do as little metal removal as possible, increasing my knifes longevity. I do agree that some knives need a bit of tuning, and thinning is all part of upkeep; that being said, I only resort to a full progression when my actual bevel has deteriorated, which takes a ton of abuse to achieve. Usually touch ups will get me through for a very, very long time.


Totally agree!! I've seen many thinned knives with mess up blade geometry.


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## JBroida

I don't know guys.... It really could be ok depending on how he sharpens... I have knives I've thinned at least once a week and they are still around after almost 8 years. Just because you're thinning doesn't mean you have to be removing a ton of metal... It could be just a bit each time... Just enough to keep the knife right where you want it geometry-wise


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## Talim

Is there something particular you look for when you can say that you've remove enough metal when thinning? Is there going to be a burr too?


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## JBroida

i just eyeball it... a large part of being good at sharpening is having experience using the knives (or getting great feedback from someone who uses them), so you know what will work for a particular steel, HT, intended use, etc. Thinning doesnt always have to create a burr (and in many cases doesnt), but it is possible to thin so much as to create a burr. It just depends on what you are trying to do and how thin you want to go.


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## gic

+2 for the diagram


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## labor of love

Talim said:


> Is there something particular you look for when you can say that you've remove enough metal when thinning? Is there going to be a burr too?



i alway thin for a few minutes then cut something to test, and then thin some more...until it feels right.


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## JohnnyChance

Assuming you are not screwing up the geometry by thinning, how does repeated thinning reduce the life of the knife? Rarely ever are you hitting the edge while thinning, the knife isn't going to get shorter. It will get shorter from sharpening, but not thinning. It will get just get skinnier. When you go on a diet, you lose weight, you don't get shorter.


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## Mucho Bocho

JohnnyChance said:


> When you go on a diet, you lose weight, you don't get shorter.



I'm not sure if you were trying to be funny Johnny but that cracked me up.

:rofl2:


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## stevenStefano

JohnnyChance said:


> Assuming you are not screwing up the geometry by thinning, how does repeated thinning reduce the life of the knife?



It'll make it more flexible surely? If you're used to a knife with no flex, once is starts to happen it could limit the tasks you use it for and once it starts flexing unless you reduce the height of the blade, it's only gonna get worse


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## CrisAnderson27

stevenStefano said:


> It'll make it more flexible surely? If you're used to a knife with no flex, once is starts to happen it could limit the tasks you use it for and once it starts flexing unless you reduce the height of the blade, it's only gonna get worse



That depends on the grind of the rest of the knife really. On a knife with a convex/blended diamond cross section, what you do to the edge isn't really going to be relevant for a good, long time....probably not till long after you've turned the thing into a filet knife. The same for an 'I' type grind like a Takeda. Even if you eventually make it a 'T' grind, that T is going to still provide the majority of the stiffness.

Mostly the knives that would be affected are truly even flat grinds.


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## JohnnyChance

Mucho Bocho said:


> I'm not sure if you were trying to be funny Johnny but that cracked me up.
> 
> :rofl2:



I was. I am 100% joking 100% of the time.


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## mpukas

Let me try this again... I posted it in the wrong thread earlier... 



+1 to Jon's vid's. 

I posted this one of Murray Carter a short time ago in another thread, but it's worth posting again here. The title refers to sharpening convex bevels, and it include a lesson on thinning. 

[video=youtube;UdEe9sEQRcE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdEe9sEQRcE[/video]

If you don't want to watch the whole thing, skip to about 5:30 where he does a nice illustrated explanation of thinning - as he calls it - the secondary edge. 'Round here we call it the secondary bevel, or if it doesn't have a true secondary bevel, behind the edge.


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## NO ChoP!

Metal removal is metal removal, and weekly thinning on a 400 grit is excessive. You aren't thinning two parallel sides. And the more you thin, the more thinning you will need to do, as you move up the blade and it becomes thicker and thicker. Not to be disrespectful, but a purveyor of cutlery telling one that it's OK to put your knife on a 400 grit stone several times a week, is like McDonalds telling you a BigMac is healthy. 

To all the lurkers and newer members, I think the point to make is, learn to sharpen so that your edges last as long as possible, stretching them out with touch ups and stropping is preferred. 1000 grit is usual low enough to remove tired metal. Fine tuning is essential, and keeping your edge thin is good, but planting this mindset that it should be a biweekly routine is nonsense.

If ones bevel has deteriorated so greatly in a few days time to where a brand new bevel must be reset (sub 1000 grit), and thinning behind the edge is necessary, I'd like to see the use of this knife in action. I am a chef in a country club, I break down literal cases of meat, poultry, fish and vegetables on plastic boards and am able to keep my edges for weeks.


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## Mucho Bocho

Word Chris!



NO ChoP! said:


> To all the lurkers and newer members, I think the point to make is, learn to sharpen so that your edges last as long as possible, stretching them out with touch ups and stropping is preferred. 1000 grit is usual low enough to remove tired metal. Fine tuning is essential, and keeping your edge thin is good, but planting this mindset that it should be a biweekly routine is nonsense.


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## tk59

Thinning is removing metal from the knife to increase performance without hitting the edge, period. Thinner knives cut better as long as they aren't flat ground, and are thick enough to withstand whatever their intended use is. Thinning is always good unless your knife chips or deforms near the edge under normal use. I've bought and seen quite a number of knives off of the BST. As far as I can tell, very few people know what appropriate thinning is and really don't do it at all even when they think they are. As for sharpening twice per week, to each their own. I like my edges sharp. If I were a pro cutting stuff all day, I'd probably be sharpening every day and after spending a lot of time touching up on 5k stones, I have to say that a couple of passes on a 400 grit stone before your 5k touch-up, does wonders. You should try it NO CHOP.


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## NO ChoP!

Edit


Will instead bite my tongue , as it's sharp and has a bite of it's own.


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## EdipisReks

JBroida said:


> I don't know guys.... It really could be ok depending on how he sharpens... I have knives I've thinned at least once a week and they are still around after almost 8 years. Just because you're thinning doesn't mean you have to be removing a ton of metal... It could be just a bit each time... Just enough to keep the knife right where you want it geometry-wise



in my experience, i remove much less vertical material when i'm aggressively thinning knives. that makes a knife last a lot longer.


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## EdipisReks

NO ChoP! said:


> I'm still a firm believer that many are too quick to remove a bunch of metal. Why thin and sharpen so frequently? Does ones knife really need a full progression starting all the way down to low grit full thinning every week? I like to try and do as little metal removal as possible, increasing my knifes longevity. I do agree that some knives need a bit of tuning, and thinning is all part of upkeep; that being said, I only resort to a full progression when my actual bevel has deteriorated, which takes a ton of abuse to achieve. Usually touch ups will get me through for a very, very long time.



the point of thinning is to maintain geometry. if you maintain geometry, you're going to be removing a lot less height from the knife every time you sharpen, compared to if you just go at the edge every time. yanagibas and usubas get thinned every time they are sharpened. this is good practice for double bevel knives, too, especially with knives like Heiji where it is expedited by the way the blade is shaped. not thinning often means the blade becomes thick, and then you have to remove a ton of steel all at once. knives have to be thinned to maintain good cutting performance. simply sharpening the edge does very little to maintain cutting performance.

a lot of people have knives that they think cut well when they are, in fact, merely keen. i've handled an awful lot of those, from people on this forum.


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## EdipisReks

NO ChoP! said:


> Metal removal is metal removal, and weekly thinning on a 400 grit is excessive. You aren't thinning two parallel sides. And the more you thin, the more thinning you will need to do, as you move up the blade and it becomes thicker and thicker. Not to be disrespectful, but a purveyor of cutlery telling one that it's OK to put your knife on a 400 grit stone several times a week, is like McDonalds telling you a BigMac is healthy.
> 
> To all the lurkers and newer members, I think the point to make is, learn to sharpen so that your edges last as long as possible, stretching them out with touch ups and stropping is preferred. 1000 grit is usual low enough to remove tired metal. Fine tuning is essential, and keeping your edge thin is good, but planting this mindset that it should be a biweekly routine is nonsense.
> 
> If ones bevel has deteriorated so greatly in a few days time to where a brand new bevel must be reset (sub 1000 grit), and thinning behind the edge is necessary, I'd like to see the use of this knife in action. I am a chef in a country club, I break down literal cases of meat, poultry, fish and vegetables on plastic boards and am able to keep my edges for weeks.



i bet your knives don't cut well. i'm entirely able to believe they are keen. these are different things. "sharpening" is a small part of the equation. go look at what a good sushi chef does to his deba and yanagiba, and then ask him why.


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## EdipisReks

this is what happens when you sharpen and don't thin. it was fairly keen. it didn't cut well.


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## EdipisReks

one last post on this thread: if you buy a very good double bevel knife, you'll almost always find that is has a very thin tip. if you want to keep this very thin tip, you _have_ to thin the knife regularly. sharpening without thinning _ruins_ tips, and very quickly, and thinning occasionally almost always ruins the tip, because the geometry of the knife gets away from you if you only thin every once in a while. this isn't rocket science. it's also much easier to sharpen a knife that is thin at the edge, vs. one that has become a hatchet.


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## gic

Thining all the way up the knife or just truly behind the edge??


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## EdipisReks

gic said:


> Thining all the way up the knife or just truly behind the edge??



one last post: thinning is a misnomer. "maintaining the geometry" is a much better way to put it.


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## gic

Now that makes sense! +1


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## Dave Martell

JohnnyChance said:


> When you go on a diet, you lose weight, you don't get shorter.





Mucho Bocho said:


> I'm not sure if you were trying to be funny Johnny but that cracked me up.
> 
> :rofl2:




I quoted this in a class I had today.


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## NO ChoP!

Really? I tried...I really tried.

Who are you clowns to question my sharpening abilities? I've been around this block just as long as the both of you. I've handled, owned and used many great knives. It figures that the two most arrogant members here would try to trash talk me. I've been a pro; you know, someone who gets paid for his knife skills for decades. I will go out on a limb and challenge anyone to any skill, any time. Yes, I am that confident. I don't just sit around in my sweater vest and sharpen knives under a microscope; I actually use them, as they were intended. Telling me I don't know how to maintain my prized possessions goes beyond arrogant, it borders arrogant stupidity. Thanks for the lesson on how and why to thin, I'm glad you decided my stance on people going to the stones too frequently meant I mustn't know how to use them. I stand by my statement that biweekly thinning and sharpening seems excessive, even for a pro. Not all of us were born into wealth.


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## EdipisReks

pathetic. i'm an IT person at a public university whose wife is unemployed. i was born into a pretty good position, but i have no wealth. go screw yourself. your ad-hominem post is exactly what somebody who doesn't know crap would post. welcome to my ignore list.


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## NO ChoP!

Coming from someone who has garnered a reputation as a bully and often resorts to personal attacks. Sure thing, buddy; try again, wrong guy!


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## EdipisReks

I can't see your posts, now, and I'm unwilling to hit that "view post" link, but I bet you complain about me calling out homophobes, and then show that you don't know what "ad hominem" means.

[video=youtube;fQbRyay_ojY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQbRyay_ojY[/video]


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## brainsausage

Might be time to settle down a bit guys. It's just knives after all.


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## NO ChoP!

Yes sir.

My apologies to the innocent bystanders. Sometimes you've gotta take a stand, though....


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## Keith Sinclair

The reason I push J-Gyuto's is many have a taper grind that is thin to begin with.So thinning behind the edge easy done on a 1200 Bester,kick in final bevel on same stone makes for a very functional edge.I thin alot of fiberox handle forschners,the knife of choice at our culinary school.Getting rid of that V grind that it comes with & putting on a compound bevel makes them cut much better.


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## K-Fed

keithsaltydog said:


> The reason I push J-Gyuto's is many have a taper grind that is thin to begin with.So thinning behind the edge easy done on a 1200 Bester,kick in final bevel on same stone makes for a very functional edge.I thin alot of fiberox handle forschners,the knife of choice at our culinary school.Getting rid of that V grind that it comes with & putting on a compound bevel makes them cut much better.


Agreed about the forshners. The chef used to pay me to come in on my off days and take care of the "house" knives. All forshners. Hated doing it, even if it was ot simply because of how they were abused.


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## gic

I usually give Forschner's to my friends if they want a cheap knife, so I wouldn't mind knowing what you do to them. All I do is put a 15 degree primary angle and a 20 degree micro bevel to make them last longer for them I don't thin up the blade but sinc eI am learnign how to use stones, I could start doing that if it really helps them.....


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## labor of love

gic said:


> I usually give Forschner's to my friends if they want a cheap knife, so I wouldn't mind knowing what you do to them. All I do is put a 15 degree primary angle and a 20 degree micro bevel to make them last longer for them I don't thin up the blade but sinc eI am learnign how to use stones, I could start doing that if it really helps them.....



+1. kfed, starting a thread on how you sharpen forschners is a good idea. i could use some tips.


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## panda

Yall are so sensitive. 

K-fed, I used to re-"geometrize" AND sharpen all of my house knives (5x 10" dexters) but all the cooks abuse the crap out of them and I no longer maintain them, lol. It's a wasted effort.


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## gic

+2, I think such a thread would be great, after all if all one has to spend is $30, what knife could possibly be better than a Forschner?? (well except those Tramontina Shun clones but that is a set and runs around $80 on ebay now...)


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## mpukas

I think there's a couple of different concepts being collapsed here - thinning vs sharpening the secondary bevel. 

To me, thinning behind the edge refers to what you would do to a new knife that isn't thin behind the the edge to increase it's cutting performance. The KS that was bought f/ Rakuten showed the thinning process. Once the desired thinness is achieved, it may not be necessary to thin at every sharpening session, but eventually the edge will become think if only the primary bevel is sharpened. 

On traditional single bevels knives as well as double bevel knives with a wide compound bevel such as Heiji, the process isn't called thinning - it's simply sharpening. Sharpening is done on the secondary bevel as well as the primary bevel to - as mentioned above - maintain the geometry of the knife. 

And I agree w/ ER's post above about thin tips. Additionally, I find thinning/sharpening the 2nd bevel at the tip the most difficult part due tot he curvature of the tip. It's difficult to maintain the proper angle to sharpen only the 2nd bevel and not hit the edge, or over rotate and sharpen above the shinogi, all the while not damaging a thin tip. 

I have a couple of double bevel knives without wide bevels - not Heiji - that I have been practicing thinning/sharpening the 2nd bevel on. I've put quote a bit of time into thinning them, and they cut better and better as my sharpening skills get better.


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## panda

I pretty much neglect the tip for that reason. Its already thin enough that it doesn't really need to be all that keen anyway, I hardly use that part of the knife


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## brainsausage

panda said:


> I pretty much neglect the tip for that reason. Its already thin enough that it doesn't really need to be all that keen anyway, I hardly use that part of the knife



'Just the tip' isn't in my lexicon... All or nothing baby.


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## K-Fed

panda said:


> Yall are so sensitive.
> 
> K-fed, I used to re-"geometrize" AND sharpen all of my house knives (5x 10" dexters) but all the cooks abuse the crap out of them and I no longer maintain them, lol. It's a wasted effort.


+3. We now have a "sharpening service". That exchanges crap for crap.... Caught the guy eyeballing my kit and propmtly stashed em' in the office.


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## Keith Sinclair

House knives don't work.If you own your own blade & your job depends on fast efficient cutting,most professionals take pretty good care of their knives.You have to, 4 or 5 banquet sheets hanging up on a weekend you better have a knife that works.

For the price the steel in a fibrox forschner is decent.Like most all European knives a V bevel is ground on the edge.Hrt in mid 50's that wide V dulls quickly.When I got my first thin Masamoto,my Forchners collected dust wt. exception of a boning & steamship round carving blade.

I ordered many of the reccom. blades on this forum.Sold them all mostly to students & couple cooks in the field.Put a really sharp edge on a Gesshin Uraku,guy I sold it to loves it.Yesterday sold last one a custom black ash burl handle carbonext to a student,used the same wood for my Dave spa treated Hiromoto AS.The thinning job on it was so good,I let them cut vegitables with it,but it is a keeper that I like to show off


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## K-Fed

Just sold my glestain to a "sous chef" at work. Just tired of what I would call sub standard steel and ht.


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## Salty dog

Um, I'm still confused.

I googled it.... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100623094845AAd1MN0


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## knyfeknerd

sandy mangina


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## jaybett

tk59 said:


> Thinning is removing metal from the knife to increase performance without hitting the edge, period. Thinner knives cut better as long as they aren't flat ground, and are thick enough to withstand whatever their intended use is. Thinning is always good unless your knife chips or deforms near the edge under normal use. I've bought and seen quite a number of knives off of the BST. As far as I can tell, very few people know what appropriate thinning is and really don't do it at all even when they think they are. As for sharpening twice per week, to each their own. I like my edges sharp. If I were a pro cutting stuff all day, I'd probably be sharpening every day and after spending a lot of time touching up on 5k stones, I have to say that a couple of passes on a 400 grit stone before your 5k touch-up, does wonders. You should try it NO CHOP.



I'm just trying to learn and understand, not get into a debate. 

There is probably an exception, but would it be fair to say, that sharpening without thinning creates an edge that doesn't match up with the geometry of the knife? The picture ER took of the Kramer, has a tiny v shaped edge, that isn't in alignment with the grind of the knife. 

I'd be curious to know what are the common mistakes that people are making when they are thinning their knives? I'm probably making the same mistakes. 

Jay


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## jaybett

EdipisReks said:


> i bet your knives don't cut well. i'm entirely able to believe they are keen. these are different things. "sharpening" is a small part of the equation. go look at what a good sushi chef does to his deba and yanagiba, and then ask him why.



I don't know if I have made your list? If you can see this, I believe you are talking about having a knife that's edge would pass common tests for sharpness, but would have issues cutting. When you say a knife a knife doesn't cut well, are we talking about wedging, dragging, or something else?

Jay


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## tk59

jaybett said:


> ...sharpening without thinning creates an edge that doesn't match up with the geometry of the knife? The picture ER took of the Kramer, has a tiny v shaped edge, that isn't in alignment with the grind of the knife...



In general, I'd say the ideal geometry of a knife is whatever you happen to like NOT including that v shaped edge. That's the part that doesn't fit but it's useful because it gives the edge strength. Without thinning, that little (and relatively thick) edge takes over the overall geometry of the knife, making it closer to the geometry of an ax than a tool for cutting food. That little v should always be minimized. This is the idea with microbevels, too. You sharpen the knife the way you want it to cut but find the edge is too thin to withstand use so you make the edge thicker which is very bad for cutting but since it's tiny, it does not contribute significantly to the overall geometry of the knife.



jaybett said:


> ...the common mistakes that people are making when they are thinning their knives?...



By far the most common mistake is not removing enough metal. I've seen knives bought that were supposedly thinned many times over years of use with the original grind marks from the manufacturer near the edge bevels. If you're thinning correctly, most of those grind marks will be gone after one or two thinning sessions barring low spots on the grind.

After that, there's thinning too much (this is rare), not thinning both sides appropriately, taking too much off the softer cladding vs the harder, more wear resistant core, rounding shoulders, I'm sure there's more and variations depending on the type of grind.


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## TheDispossessed

just FYI, my gyuto which hits the 400 grit weekly is 9 months old and has lost 1mm height at the heel. 
you can use a low grit stone with finesse. 
and just being a long time forum member or pro cook does not make your knowledge and skills infallible.


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## TheDispossessed

NO ChoP! said:


> Not to be disrespectful, but a purveyor of cutlery telling one that it's OK to put your knife on a 400 grit stone several times a week, is like McDonalds telling you a BigMac is healthy.



I hope you're not referring to Jon here, if you are it is majorly disrespectful in my opinion. This is someone who has trained extensively in Japan with some of the country's best sharpeners and does this for a living. He freely gives out advice be it through phone calls, emails or youtube videos to people, most of whom probably never buy a damn thing from him. The Japanese are very protective of their skills and craft, and to have someone translate and share this knowledge is an immense resource for all of us.


----------



## NO ChoP!

TheDispossessed said:


> just FYI, my gyuto which hits the 400 grit weekly is 9 months old and has lost 1mm height at the heel.
> you can use a low grit stone with finesse.
> and just being a long time forum member or pro cook does not make your knowledge and skills infallible.



To me 1mm in 9 months is a bunch, especially for knives meant to last a lifetime. So in 5 years you'll have lost almost 7mm? Your gyuto would be short even for a suji at that point....

This is my point exactly. Just because I try to make my knives last doesn't mean I don't know how to sharpen, and the implication is just plain rude. Spending $400, or more on a knife is a very substantial investment for me, and I try to baby my knives as much as possible. I clean my Nike Air Max everytime I wear them, too.

I truly didn't mean anything disrespectful towards Jon, and I can clearly see it came off that way. My apologies. 

I do still stand by my statement that not trying to make your edges last, and resorting to frequent low grit sharpening is not necessary. I do understand that many are true knuts and just enjoy the practice, but for me I enjoy spending time to get my knife as perfectly tuned as possible, and then seeing how long I can make that edge last in a hardcore environment.


----------



## NO ChoP!

And I'm going to throw something else out there, and try to be as careful as possible to not offend anyone.

I think the main difference we are witnessing here is two different types of users. Being that I work in a kitchen, I use my knives for a living. The current job I hold actually has me with a knife in-hand for a good part of the day. My joy of knives is in using them daily, as a tool of the trade, something I rely on. 

On the flip side, you have guys who simply enjoy nice knives. They use them occasionally in a home environment, maybe to make some awesome dinners. Their joy probably comes from handling them. Sharpening, polishing, tuning; so when they do use them, they are friggin' machines....probably just as or more knutty than the pro. I get it.

But, I think we need to coincide and respect one another.


----------



## Salty dog

The basis of my confusion is my perception of a knife that needs to be thinned behind the edge. An example would be any of the "house" knives in my kitchen. They've been sharpened on a Tru-Hone machine or at too steep of angles. The edge begins to resemble the spine. I just have never purchased a quality knife where any edge thinning is needed. To this day I have never consciously "thinned the edge" on any of my knives? Even the pudgy Mizuno honyakis. Hence my confusion. 

I rarely use my 400, I don't spend much time on the stones and I sharpen at a pretty shallow angle. (Or is it steep? You know what I mean) 

I don't have a theory on this but this has been my experience.


----------



## Lefty

NO ChoP! said:


> And I'm going to throw something else out there, and try to be as careful as possible to not offend anyone.
> 
> I think the main difference we are witnessing here is two different types of users. Being that I work in a kitchen, I use my knives for a living. The current job I hold actually has me with a knife in-hand for a good part of the day. My joy of knives is in using them daily, as a tool of the trade, something I rely on.
> 
> On the flip side, you have guys who simply enjoy nice knives. They use them occasionally in a home environment, maybe to make some awesome dinners. Their joy probably comes from handling them. Sharpening, polishing, tuning; so when they do use them, they are friggin' machines....probably just as or more knutty than the pro. I get it.
> 
> But, I think we need to coincide and respect one another.



You're 100% right. I'm essentially a home user, so I could get all up in arms, but the truth of the matter is, pros use these and get the satisfaction from knowing that one of their most important tools is always going to come through for them, while making their job a bit more personal. For a home user, it's all in babying and taking care of your prize knife - be that sharpening, polishing, oiling, etc. 

Of course, a large part of my job is cooking, despite the fact that I consider myself a home user. The funny thing is, my work knives are the ones that I get the most satisfaction out of using, despite being less glamorous than my "prizes". Interesting....


----------



## Craig

So what exactly is the difference between thinning behind the edge and putting on a microbevel?


----------



## EdipisReks

Craig said:


> So what exactly is the difference between thinning behind the edge and putting on a microbevel?



a microbevel thickens an edge.


----------



## harlock0083

Craig said:


> So what exactly is the difference between thinning behind the edge and putting on a microbevel?



I don't think those are even related. 

On a different note, I don't see a need to put my knife a coarse stone constantly (IMO once you've set the bevel or have done whatever thinning you needed on a coarse stone). I only use a coarse stone for repairs mostly chips and what not.


----------



## EdipisReks

NO ChoP! said:


> Being that I work in a kitchen, I use my knives for a living. The current job I hold actually has me with a knife in-hand for a good part of the day. My joy of knives is in using them daily, as a tool of the trade, something I rely on.



if you're absolutes were true, there wouldn't be wire thin yanagibas at sushi restaurants.


----------



## EdipisReks

Salty dog said:


> Even the pudgy Mizuno honyakis. Hence my confusion.



I used your pass-around Mizuno. It was a nicely made knife, but it didn't cut as well as it should have, because it was very thick behind the edge. I've handled a newish one, since, and it wasn't that way, close to OOTB. The new one was thick at the spine, but tapered quite abruptly, to a fine edge. I can only assume yours started out that way.


----------



## EdipisReks

harlock0083 said:


> I don't think those are even related.
> 
> On a different note, I don't see a need to put my knife a coarse stone constantly (IMO once you've set the bevel or have done whatever thinning you needed on a coarse stone). I only use a coarse stone for repairs mostly chips and what not.



When I thin my knives, which is a regular part of my maintenance, I do it with a Chosera 1000. I only go to a coarser stone when something needs correction. It typically takes 5-10 minutes per side, when part of a routine, and only that long because I like to set up a uniform finish before spending another 2 minutes per side with finger stones, to restore polish. 

When I do regular thinning, it is after I have sharpened enough that the primary bevel has thickened the edge to the point where it can be noticed (perhaps every third time I sharpen a knife). Thinning then smooths out the noticeable bevel back into the normal geometry of the knife, and resets the geometry. This does not take long at all, if done regularly, and restores cutting ability. We are not talking about very much removed metal, and almost no removed metal at the edge, which means the knife only slowly reduces in height. Removing lots of metal at the edge is what reduces the height of a knife. This should be self-evident.

My goal, when i get a knife that I really like the performance of, is to keep it cutting as close to the best it can for the life of the knife. Not keeping the geometry in place is, to me, like not regularly changing your car's oil. Maintaining the geometry of the knife regularly _extends_ the life of the knife, not vice verse. A knife that is thin at the edge and has a good geometry needs to be sharpened less often, not more, because the geometry of the blade does much of the cutting work. This is not a regimen that came automatically to me, but instead took time and practice and observation and talking to people more knowledgable than myself. I sharpen my knives a lot less than I used to, and cutting performance stays much higher, because I'm treating my tools correctly.


----------



## Salty dog

EdipisReks said:


> I used your pass-around Mizuno. It was a nicely made knife, but it didn't cut as well as it should have, because it was very thick behind the edge. I've handled a newish one, since, and it wasn't that way, close to OOTB. The new one was thick at the spine, but tapered quite abruptly, to a fine edge. I can only assume yours started out that way.



No, it really hasn't seen much use. I think they changed their geometry over time. My blue and white were the first ones made. They weren't exactly what I was looking for at the time (Mighty) but I've come to appreciate them much more.


----------



## EdipisReks

Salty dog said:


> No, it really hasn't seen much use. I think they changed their geometry over time. My blue and white were the first ones made. They weren't exactly what I was looking for at the time (Mighty) but I've come to appreciate them much more.



Then that knife definitely needed some thinning, because the new one I tried cut very well.


----------



## jaybett

tk59 said:


> In general, I'd say the ideal geometry of a knife is whatever you happen to like NOT including that v shaped edge. That's the part that doesn't fit but it's useful because it gives the edge strength. Without thinning, that little (and relatively thick) edge takes over the overall geometry of the knife, making it closer to the geometry of an ax than a tool for cutting food. That little v should always be minimized. This is the idea with microbevels, too. You sharpen the knife the way you want it to cut but find the edge is too thin to withstand use so you make the edge thicker which is very bad for cutting but since it's tiny, it does not contribute significantly to the overall geometry of the knife.
> 
> 
> 
> By far the most common mistake is not removing enough metal. I've seen knives bought that were supposedly thinned many times over years of use with the original grind marks from the manufacturer near the edge bevels. If you're thinning correctly, most of those grind marks will be gone after one or two thinning sessions barring low spots on the grind.
> 
> After that, there's thinning too much (this is rare), not thinning both sides appropriately, taking too much off the softer cladding vs the harder, more wear resistant core, rounding shoulders, I'm sure there's more and variations depending on the type of grind.



Thanks for the information.

Jay


----------



## panda

i agree with edipis. over the course of trying to get various knives to perform, i've found every knife became better 'cutters' after essentially regrinding the bottom portion of the blade. even when the cutting edge is not so keen, because the shape of the blade constitutes good performance, it will still be serviceable. 

for example, even though i don't maintain the house knives any more, they still cut WAY better than they were stock with a keen edge.

i'll put it this way, given the choice between two identical knives but in different conditions:

A) brand new knife, no thinning, newly formed very sharp edge
B) well used knife, heavily thinned, but dulled edge

i would pick knife B every time.


----------



## harlock0083

panda said:


> i agree with edipis. over the course of trying to get various knives to perform, i've found every knife became better 'cutters' after essentially regrinding the bottom portion of the blade. even when the cutting edge is not so keen, because the shape of the blade constitutes good performance, it will still be serviceable.
> 
> for example, even though i don't maintain the house knives any more, they still cut WAY better than they were stock with a keen edge.
> 
> i'll put it this way, given the choice between two identical knives but in different conditions:
> 
> A) brand new knife, no thinning, newly formed very sharp edge
> B) well used knife, heavily thinned, but dulled edge
> 
> i would pick knife B every time.



A thin and dull knife is still dull. You'd be using more force than necessary for cutting. I'd pick A given the two choices myself. C would be to sharpen the thin dulll knife.....


----------



## EdipisReks

harlock0083 said:


> A thin and dull knife is still dull. You'd be using more force than necessary for cutting. I'd pick A given the two choices myself. C would be to sharpen the thin dulll knife.....



Depends on what you are cutting. A very thin at the edge, but dull, knife will still sink into potatoes in a way a keen, but fat, knife never will. Of course, thin and keen is much better, for most cutting tasks.


----------



## harlock0083

EdipisReks said:


> Depends on what you are cutting. A very thin at the edge, but dull, knife will still sink into potatoes in a way a keen, but fat, knife never will. Of course, thin and keen is much better, for most cutting tasks.



Point taken, the thin knife feels "usefully sharp/dull". I can understand the why people want super thin/ultra sharp edge, but there seems to be an over obsession for keeping one's knife razor sharp 24/7 (at one point I was in this camp, homecooks also have it easier in terms of maintenance, but now I just maintain the edge until I feel the need to put it on a medium stone). 

As a side note, giving a two year old a plastic butter knife and a potato will occupy him long enough to cook dinner.


----------



## EdipisReks

A lot of it depends on what your uses are. I keep going back to the sushi example, but if you have to cut very thin and precise portions of protein a lot, you'll be keeping your knife geometry and keenness very high at all times. If all you do is prep mirepoix for stock, it's less necessary. Most use cases are in between, of course.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

harlock0083 said:


> A thin and dull knife is still dull. You'd be using more force than necessary for cutting. I'd pick A given the two choices myself. C would be to sharpen the thin dulll knife.....



JMO vastly prefer thin ground knives for most cutting duties.They are also easier to touch up.Spine doesn't have to be real thin,but down the blade face as common on many quality J-Gyuto.Thinning is one of those terms that may have different meanings.My first bevel is close to the stone(I call it back bevel)Depending how assemetric determines how high the polish line on blade road.The backside polish is higher than cutting side on highly assem. knives.Using this loosely but say 2mm on front & 3mm backside.So its not thinning up the sides of the blade,it is more as Edipis said maintaining good edge geometry.(Final bevel) is twice the height off the stone which makes a type of blended convex edge that glides thu food.

I would keep a worn thin carbon gyuto that only had one shallow close to the stone bevel on both sides.No final bevel.Good for cutting Maki Rolls & inside out sushi rolls.We served alot of Nori Panko crusted Ahi,any crusted protien wt. a damp towel on the board to wipe the blade.

I am sure No Chop knows what works for him to keep his blades going.I used cleavers alot too & would put diff bevels on cheap chinese carbon cleavers would use a wider bevel for lobster splitting blade than thin for chopping herbs & vegitables.

There are diff. ways to get a blade sharp.Bottom line is if it works for you that's what matters.


----------



## Salty dog

@ No Chop, all ad-hominisms aside...........they will never understand.


----------



## EdipisReks

Salty dog said:


> @ No Chop, all ad-hominisms aside...........they will never understand.



BS.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Salty dog said:


> @ No Chop, all ad-hominisms aside...........they will never understand.


Thanks Scott, I really miss you guys! Sometimes you don't know what's great in your life till it's gone. Hope all is well!


----------



## knyfeknerd

Salty dog said:


> @ No Chop, all ad-hominisms aside...........they will never understand.


+1 and LOL

Salty you funny.
Edipiss u bully.


----------



## Salty dog

NO ChoP! said:


> Thanks Scott, I really miss you guys! Sometimes you don't know what's great in your life till it's gone. Hope all is well!



It is actually. Coming out of the funk and I'll be single in 2 weeks.


----------



## EdipisReks

knyfeknerd said:


> +1 and LOL
> 
> Salty you funny.
> Edipiss u bully.



me bully


----------



## tk59

EdipisReks said:


> Then that knife definitely needed some thinning, because the new one I tried cut very well.


I tried the white one quite a while back, when it was almost new. It was definitely on the thick side even back then.


----------



## chinacats

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the tools of a pro chef are just like the tools of pro's in other trades...us rank amateur's just don't get it. I'm guessing you'd destroy one of my nice edges in about five minutes. I have to say this may rank up there for best thread ever. 

Thank you,
Gullible


----------



## EdipisReks

chinacats said:


> I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the tools of a pro chef are just like the tools of pro's in other trades...us rank amateur's just don't get it.



BS. If that were the case, I wouldn't have had to fix as many mass specs in a previous life, or as many ultrasounds in my current life.


----------



## chinacats

Dude, you've been had.


----------



## EdipisReks

chinacats said:


> Dude, you've been had.



no, a 2 million dollar mass spectrometer that is broken is not being had, it's standard operating procedure when PhDs are allowed to do whatever they want.


----------



## ThEoRy

EdipisReks said:


> BS. If that were the case, I wouldn't have had to fix as many mass specs in a previous life, or as many ultrasounds in my current life.



Not BS.

Get on my level.


----------



## EdipisReks

ThEoRy said:


> Not BS.
> 
> Get on my level.



That means nothing.


----------



## CrisAnderson27

Is it just me?...or is this thread really going somewhere where the majority of us just aren't getting it? Is there back story missing or something?


----------



## tkern

watch a few episodes of All my Children and General Hospital and you'll be just fine.


----------



## CrisAnderson27

tkern said:


> watch a few episodes of All my Children and General Hospital and you'll be just fine.



Lol no kidding right?


----------



## brainsausage

Thinning was the original impetus of this thread. And it's transitioned into a cultural difference regarding knife usage. Pros beat on knives, and proper geometry is very important to maintain, as a very keen edge won't last for ****, but you still literally NEED it to perform. A home cook can approach things on a much more academic level typically. Which is still highly warranted. I'm not saying this is the case across the board with either so called camps, but its useful to acknowledge the perspectives in play here.


----------



## ThEoRy

EdipisReks said:


> That means nothing.



It means much more than you know. Over 20 years of professionally wielding kitchen knives for 75+ hour work weeks. Get. On. My. Level. I won't pretend to have such a deep understanding of the tools from a different field from casually or only occasionally using them.


----------



## chinacats

brainsausage said:


> Thinning was the original impetus of this thread. And it's transitioned into a cultural difference regarding knife usage. Pros beat on knives, and proper geometry is very important to maintain, as a very keen edge won't last for ****, but you still literally NEED it to perform. A home cook can approach things on a much more academic level typically. Which is still highly warranted. I'm not saying this is the case across the board with either so called camps, but its useful to acknowledge the perspectives in play here.



Well said Brainsausage! What I find particularly funny is that the knife brought up by example (Salty's honyaki) was one that I also found to be thick behind the edge compared to what I'm used to using. After some thought process I remember that Salty doesn't like end-grain boards and beats the crap out of a knife. There is no way that my knife would be good for him or his good for me. I can only imagine how fast he'd destroy one of ER's Heiji's.



ThEoRy said:


> It means much more than you know. Over 20 years of professionally wielding kitchen knives for 75+ hour work weeks. Get. On. My. Level. I won't pretend to have such a deep understanding of the tools from a different field from casually or only occasionally using them.



Hard perspective to attain if you haven't lived it and I certainly haven't, but definitely gives me a lot of respect for those who manage to maintain these tools with the use/abuse you guys can dish out.


----------



## Salty dog

ThEoRy said:


> It means much more than you know. Over 20 years of professionally wielding kitchen knives for 75+ hour work weeks. Get. On. My. Level. I won't pretend to have such a deep understanding of the tools from a different field from casually or only occasionally using them.



You are ad-hominizing.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Well us English can't handle it unless it's ad homogenized.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Chinacats, you nailed it on your last statement.


----------



## mano

Interning at a pro kitchen with a Ph.D. for four months, I may have been the smartest guy in the room. By shutting up and paying attention I had a thimble full of understanding by the time I left.


----------



## ThEoRy

Just a small example, yesterday I broke down 3 cases of whole chickens, 1 case of beef tenderloins, 3 cases of pork tenderloins, 3 whole salmon and a plethora of veggie prep for different uses. Just a regular day.


----------



## Mrmnms

Why do I think Salty knew where this might go when he first posted this harmless question? A little B.F. Skinner or Pavlov's Method.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Theory, I had a slow day.. only three tenderloins, one side sword, one side tuna , two salmon and a box of fresh mountain trout....


----------



## Chuckles

Wow this thread picked up WAY more speed than I thought it would. 

+1 this:


> for me I enjoy spending time to get my knife as perfectly tuned as possible, and then seeing how long I can make that edge last in a hardcore environment.



Spa days when needed. No time for thinning constantly. I have papers that need pushing. 

The funniest part of this for me was the implication that a long time pro chef that is an active member of an online kitchen knife forum wouldn't notice if his knife wasn't cutting well. I'm sure there was no offense intended but that would rank right up there with 'I bet your menu isn't very good' in terms of professionally focused insults for me.
I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything. Just sayin' I notice if a knife can't cut in less than 20 seconds not 20 years. If it can't cut it will be on the stones and plates until it can. So for I can gets paid. 

:clown:


----------



## NO ChoP!

Thanks, dude!


----------



## mzer

I am sure this is not a unique perspective here, but as a former cook who now just likes to play with shiny toys, I have a great degree of self loathing every time I start to baby and obsess about a knife, but that still doesn't stop me. I do think thinning is a bit overdone in these parts, but a good deal of that probably comes from the preferred knives on the forum as much as the actual necessity to thin any given knife.


----------



## Craig

EdipisReks said:


> a microbevel thickens an edge.





harlock0083 said:


> I don't think those are even related.



So thinning is done at no angle
thinning behind the edge is done at a low angle (say 4-6 degrees?)
The bevel is done at a moderate angle (10-18?)
and the microbevel is done at a high angle (~25?)

And the height of each of these sections gets shorter as the angle increases?


----------



## harlock0083

Craig said:


> So thinning is done at no angle
> thinning behind the edge is done at a low angle (say 4-6 degrees?)
> The bevel is done at a moderate angle (10-18?)
> and the microbevel is done at a high angle (~25?)
> 
> And the height of each of these sections gets shorter as the angle increases?



Craig, the height increase as you increase the angle. While a microbevel does increase the edge thickness, the added thickness is so minimal it goes away with stropping. I don't see thinning and microbevels as being related at all.


----------



## EdipisReks

mano said:


> Interning at a pro kitchen with a Ph.D. for four months, I may have been the smartest guy in the room. By shutting up and paying attention I had a thimble full of understanding by the time I left.



but i doubt you knew anything more about maintaining a knife after those four months than you did at the beginning. that being one of the things most railed against in this forum, often by the very people here trying to pummel me (and failing miserably, as it's actually rather cute, in a high school clique sort-of-way).


----------



## EdipisReks

ThEoRy said:


> Just a small example, yesterday I broke down 3 cases of whole chickens, 1 case of beef tenderloins, 3 cases of pork tenderloins, 3 whole salmon and a plethora of veggie prep for different uses. Just a regular day.



so do lots of professional cooks, and most of those professional cooks probably have crappy, poorly maintained knives. so, once again, this means nothing.


----------



## cheflarge

Just curious to how a ph turd, with no professional culinary/kitchen experience, thinks he can tell a professional (with over twenty years experience), what's right and what's wrong with his knife care techniques. To me it is an extremelly personal decision, much like hair styles. If there is only one "right" hair style than wouldn't everybody have the same hair cut? Just sayin. Shouldn't we try and help the less educated about knife care, than just constantly bullying and bashing them? I have seen way to much intimidation and bullying on this board (IMHO) and really wish it would end. It is almost embarrasing at times.


----------



## Dusty

At the moment I have an interesting perspective regarding the pro vs home use debate. I'm a pro chef - ten years in good restaurants, big hours... and three months ago I've scaled back to part-time work (two double shifts a week) and five days at home as a stay-at-home dad.

At home I cook all the meals for my family and work is at a place of medium volume, a lot of butchery, charcuterie and process work. 

I can safely leave knives and stones at work and I've split my kit into two, at work my knives and stones are generally geometrically sound workhorses and the only stones there right now are a jns 800 and a naniwa SS 1000, two mid-range stones, but they do very different things. At home I'm finishing on Jnats, stropping, polishing and basically enjoying fussing with knives. 

There is something privileged about the experience of taking a tool - in our case a knife to the very edge of its functionality and then having the ability and the knowledge of how to maintain it at that level, and the professional environment is the best way to experience that. Home users still have the time to really get to know their knives well but I've owned gyutos in pro kitchens that have felt like they were a part of my body, and I can't imagine that happening in a home environment.


----------



## EdipisReks

cheflarge said:


> Just curious to how a ph turd, with no professional culinary/kitchen experience, thinks he can tell a professional (with over twenty years experience), what's right and what's wrong with his knife care techniques. To me it is an extremelly personal decision, much like hair styles. If there is only one "right" hair style than wouldn't everybody have the same hair cut? Just sayin. Shouldn't we try and help the less educated about knife care, than just constantly bullying and bashing them? I have seen way to much intimidation and bullying on this board (IMHO) and really wish it would end. It is almost embarrasing at times.



I don't have a PhD, I simply clean up after them. I've done a lot of jobs, and one thing I've learned is that the people who truly need to learn something new can never be taught, due to their self-righteosness, and they always hide behind some kind of qualification, whether it being 20 years of getting poor protein crystallization analysis, or 20 years in the kitchen. This forum has become a Balkanized state.


----------



## mano

EdipisReks said:


> but i doubt you knew anything more about maintaining a knife after those four months than you did at the beginning. that being one of the things most railed against in this forum, often by the very people here trying to pummel me (and failing miserably, as it's actually rather cute, in a high school clique sort-of-way).



I learned a lot more about knife maintenance -and a sh!tload more- from the prep cooks who were old enough to be my sons.


----------



## cheflarge

Would not of expected anything less from your perspective. This I do know: I am 100% sure there is NOTHING on this earth that you are THE BEST at.


----------



## mzer

EdipisReks said:


> This forum has become a Balkanized state.



Not really, as a semi-outsider it seems like a whole lot of friendly discussion about knives between people who use them differently, a little bit of leftover issues from being a breakaway forum and a few angry men who like to tell people that they know absolutely everything, often in a nasty way.


----------



## zitangy

If I am thinking logically.......



Craig said:


> So thinning is done at no angle
> 
> Z IF will be quite impossible not to touch the secondary bevel ( inner edge if I may say).SO the edge (secondary ) wld be flattened and thus thinned.(?) Thus you will have a wider bevel ( slightly and also a thinned behind the edge ( area abraded)
> 
> thinning behind the edge is done at a low angle (say 4-6 degrees?)
> 
> Z>> this will definitely make the secondary bevel wider and also thin it (bevel) at the same time.No thinning behind the new edge /bevel.
> 
> A good place to look will be at the choil area to see how thick it is or feel the edge area between thumb adn index finger. When Thinning, once the makers's vertical grind or horizontal grind lines from Western maker' s are gone.. I am more inclined to take it easy.... only above 600 grit sandpaper.. FOr Sanmai's normally when I clean up/ sand and polish the choil area, I can see the core and jacket and thickness and hopefully that it extends all the way along the blade .
> 
> 
> The bevel is done at a moderate angle (10-18?)
> and the microbevel is done at a high angle (~25?)
> 
> RGds
> d
> 
> And the height of each of these sections gets shorter as the angle increases?


----------



## Chuckles

@ Edipis - dood. You have the best choil shots on the forums. You clearly know what you are doing in this regard. I am very excited to see a knife you have worked on in person when the Hide pass around comes my way. 

That being said it must be conceivable that someone else could also know what they are doing even if they have a different approach or different needs from their knife, right?


----------



## harlock0083

mano said:


> Interning at a pro kitchen with a Ph.D. for four months, I may have been the smartest guy in the room. By shutting up and paying attention I had a thimble full of understanding by the time I left.



Having a PhD doesn't guarantee intelligence....


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## JohnnyChance

Frankly I am embarrassed by the statements by most of the pros in this thread. A properly maintained knife cuts better than one that doesn't, regardless if it is maintained by a pro, a home user, Dave or Jon. And you don't have to cut 1000 pounds of product a week to evaluate proper geometry. Yes, we use our knives a lot, much more than someone could even begin to use them at home. So they get sharpened more. And we require they to perform well. So why aren't we the champions of thinning? This entire argument is backwards. It is the home user who should be saying "ehh, you thin too much", because they don't sharpen that often! The more you sharpen the more you are required to spend time maintaining the proper geometry. We sharpen a lot so whether you like it or not, our knives get thicker, faster. 

No one is suggesting you spend an hour every night on a 400 grit stone thinning your knife. Maintain your edge how you like, high grit stone, strop, diamond plate, rod, etc and you should get a couple weeks (or more) out of it. Then, when you do have to go back to the stones, spend 5 extra minutes on low-ish grit stone (I usually use a 1200) and maintain it. I know we work a lot, but I have time for 5 minutes every 2 weeks. I don't refinish and my regular sharpening only takes 5 minutes as it is. Especially with a thin, properly maintained edge. And then guess what, the edges last longer, they cut better when they are duller, the come back easier on my diamond plate and then ending up extending my time between sharpenings. If you generally use lasers, then thinning is not as critical. The knife is very thin for the majority of the blade. It's performance will still begin to suffer after a few sharpenings, but it will be less noticeable. And you can put off thinning it longer because when you do, there isn't a lot of metal to remove. But a Kato? Or Gengetsu? Heiji? Unless you thin as you go, every time you sharpen, you WILL have to spend an hour on it at some point. I think I would rather spend an extra 5-10 minutes every time I bring it back to the stones.

Is Edipis an a-hole? Yes. Is he right? Yes. Am I an a-hole? Yes, and I bet most of you are too in your kitchens. And like me I bet you spend a lot of your time busting the chops of those you work with. He's busting your chops. Feel free to dig in and defend your ground, but at the end of the day, he is right about pretty much everything he has said on sharpening & thinning in this thread. He might have been wrong to question your ability to determine when a knife needs thinning or how to properly maintain it, but frankly I don't blame him. This is the internet, unless you have handled someones work personally, there is really no way to know if their work backs up their talk. Doesn't matter how many hundreds of pounds of carrots you have cut.


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## mano

harlock0083 said:


> Having a PhD doesn't guarantee intelligence....



Ain't that the truth!


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## cheflarge

Clearly my point: STOP BEING A DICK!!!


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## harlock0083

JohnnyChance said:


> Frankly I am embarrassed by the statements by most of the pros in this thread. A properly maintained knife cuts better than one that doesn't, regardless if it is maintained by a pro, a home user, Dave or Jon. And you don't have to cut 1000 pounds of product a week to evaluate proper geometry. Yes, we use our knives a lot, much more than someone could even begin to use them at home. So they get sharpened more. And we require they to perform well. So why aren't we the champions of thinning? This entire argument is backwards. It is the home user who should be saying "ehh, you thin too much", because they don't sharpen that often! The more you sharpen the more you are required to spend time maintaining the proper geometry. We sharpen a lot so whether you like it or not, our knives get thicker, faster.
> 
> No one is suggesting you spend an hour every night on a 400 grit stone thinning your knife. Maintain your edge how you like, high grit stone, strop, diamond plate, rod, etc and you should get a week or a few out of it. Then, when you do have to go back to the stones, spend 5 extra minutes on low-ish grit stone (I usually use a 1200) and maintain it. I know we work a lot, but I have time for 5 minutes every 2 weeks. I don't refinish and my regular sharpening only takes 5 minutes as it is. Especially with a thin, properly maintained edge. And then guess what, the edges last longer, they cut better when they are duller, the come back easier on my diamond plate and then ending up extending my time between sharpenings. If you generally use lasers, then thinning is not as critical. The knife is very thin for the majority of the blade. It's performance will still begin to suffer after a few sharpenings, but it will be less noticeable. And you can put off thinning it longer because when you do, there isn't a lot of metal to remove. But a Kato? Or Gengetsu? Heiji? Unless you thin as you go, every time you sharpen, you WILL have to spend an hour on it at some point. I think I would rather spend an extra 5-10 minutes every time I bring it back to the stones.
> 
> Is Edipis an a-hole? Yes. Is he right? Yes. Am I an a-hole? Yes, and I bet most of you are too in your kitchens. And like me I bet you spend a lot of your time busting the chops of those you work with. He's busting your chops. Feel free to dig in and defend your ground, but at the end of the day, he is right about pretty much everything he has said on sharpening & thinning in this thread. He might have been wrong to question your ability to determine when a knife needs thinning or how to properly maintain it, but frankly I don't blame him. This is the internet, unless you have handled someones work personally, there is really no way to know if their work backs up their talk. Doesn't matter how many hundreds of pounds of carrots you have cut.



I think people are passionate about their knives which is good, but there's too much vitriol in this thread at the moment. There's differences in philosophy and that's just what it is.


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## harlock0083

cheflarge said:


> Clearly my point: STOP BEING A DICK!!!



What if my name was Richard? I find you post offensive sir!


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## knyfeknerd

I'm honestly just waiting for Edpiss to start calling all of us Neo Nazi Fascist Homophobes and then publicly post some PM's sent to him.
Stay classy!


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## cheflarge

lus1: Sorry, Richard, no offense intended!


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## harlock0083

cheflarge said:


> lus1: Sorry, Richard, no offense intended!



That's Mr. Long to you buddy.... :biggrin:


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## cheflarge

YUP!!! :goodpost:


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## gic

And speaking as someone who has one, not necessarily common sense either. (But I can make computers sit up and beg :- ) )


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## Ruso

I am quite puzzled how come the thread full of bile got 5 stars


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## tk59

Ruso said:


> I am quite puzzled how come the thread full of bile got 5 stars


5 stars? 

Regardless, I agree. This thread needs to be closed and all the superfluous junk removed.


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## Ruso

That's what I see:


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## chinacats

That strictly represents entertainment value as opposed to quality of content. :laugh:


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## tk59

Interesting. I see no star rating.


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## Salty dog

Mrmnms said:


> Why do I think Salty knew where this might go when he first posted this harmless question? A little B.F. Skinner or Pavlov's Method.



I new it would spur discussion but I had no idea it would go in this direction. 
A couple points I'd like to make.

"PHD Turd" was way out of line.
and
I sort of expected this to be a discussion about current fads.


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## mano

Salty dog said:


> "PHD Turd" was way out of line.


He was referring to Edipis' comment that he cleans up after PhD's


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## harlock0083

Well the thread is definitely entertaining.


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## Salty dog

mano said:


> He was referring to Edipis' comment that he cleans up after PhD's



Oh, good then?

P.S. This morning I processed a case of beef back ribs. Perhaps a discussion of the pros and cons of a meat band saw at home or at work?


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## mano

Salty dog said:


> Oh, good then?
> 
> ?



Couldn't care less either way. I know I'm full of sh1t

Biggest beef ribs I ever had were in Oklahoma. The size of my forearm.


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## harlock0083

mano said:


> Couldn't care less either way. I know I'm full of sh1t
> 
> Biggest beef ribs I ever had were in Oklahoma. The size of my forearm.



Fiber would take care of that problem. Also where in Oklahoma were these beef ribs? I'm curious/hungry!


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## NO ChoP!

JohnnyChance said:


> Frankly I am embarrassed by the statements by most of the pros in this thread. A properly maintained knife cuts better than one that doesn't, regardless if it is maintained by a pro, a home user, Dave or Jon. And you don't have to cut 1000 pounds of product a week to evaluate proper geometry. Yes, we use our knives a lot, much more than someone could even begin to use them at home. So they get sharpened more. And we require they to perform well. So why aren't we the champions of thinning? This entire argument is backwards. It is the home user who should be saying "ehh, you thin too much", because they don't sharpen that often! The more you sharpen the more you are required to spend time maintaining the proper geometry. We sharpen a lot so whether you like it or not, our knives get thicker, faster.
> 
> No one is suggesting you spend an hour every night on a 400 grit stone thinning your knife. Maintain your edge how you like, high grit stone, strop, diamond plate, rod, etc and you should get a couple weeks (or more) out of it. Then, when you do have to go back to the stones, spend 5 extra minutes on low-ish grit stone (I usually use a 1200) and maintain it. I know we work a lot, but I have time for 5 minutes every 2 weeks. I don't refinish and my regular sharpening only takes 5 minutes as it is. Especially with a thin, properly maintained edge. And then guess what, the edges last longer, they cut better when they are duller, the come back easier on my diamond plate and then ending up extending my time between sharpenings. If you generally use lasers, then thinning is not as critical. The knife is very thin for the majority of the blade. It's performance will still begin to suffer after a few sharpenings, but it will be less noticeable. And you can put off thinning it longer because when you do, there isn't a lot of metal to remove. But a Kato? Or Gengetsu? Heiji? Unless you thin as you go, every time you sharpen, you WILL have to spend an hour on it at some point. I think I would rather spend an extra 5-10 minutes every time I bring it back to the stones.
> 
> Is Edipis an a-hole? Yes. Is he right? Yes. Am I an a-hole? Yes, and I bet most of you are too in your kitchens. And like me I bet you spend a lot of your time busting the chops of those you work with. He's busting your chops. Feel free to dig in and defend your ground, but at the end of the day, he is right about pretty much everything he has said on sharpening & thinning in this thread. He might have been wrong to question your ability to determine when a knife needs thinning or how to properly maintain it, but frankly I don't blame him. This is the internet, unless you have handled someones work personally, there is really no way to know if their work backs up their talk. Doesn't matter how many hundreds of pounds of carrots you have cut.



Honestly, I agree with pretty much most of this, my only point through all of this is as a pro, our knives do get abused, and high frequency of sharpening will shorten their lives. As a large investment I choose to baby them as much as possible, that's it. I simply questioned if biweekly sharpening and thinning was excessive. Simple as that.


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## bahamaroot

For me it comes down to everybody that sharpens needs to know how to thin because at some point it has to be done. At that point you can decide how much and how often you want to thin and phuck what anyone else thinks about it. Ooopps, I think I just broke a rule!


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## labor of love

it seems like a few of us here may have different expectations about how long our knives should last. while a lifetime of use would be nice, maintaining geometry would be of more importance-whether that means the knife last 7-8 years or 20+ years. ive never tried to maintain an edge at work by simply stropping, i guess i should. speaking as a pro chef, i can say i wear out my edges pretty quickly only to sharpen them again, and again, each week. but im happy with my techinque, i would probably be a little offended if somebody told me what i was doing was "wrong". afterall, the way i sharpen suits my needs. to each their own.


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## Lucretia

:sarcasmalert:



Salty dog said:


> P.S. This morning I processed a case of beef back ribs. Perhaps a discussion of the pros and cons of a meat band saw at home or at work?



Today I cut a slice of bread, a couple slices of cheese, cleaned up a pork tenderloin, and will chop up a couple zucchinis, an onion, a carrot, and a handful of mushrooms. A meat band saw is obviously overkill for EVERYONE. NO ONE should be allowed to use one. I AM RIGHT!!!!!! And anyone who disagrees with me is an IDJIT. Especially if they have a different level of education, work in a professional kitchen, are a home cook, are a different gender, different political bent, or the wind is out of the east or south.


Anyone for popcorn?


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## harlock0083

Lucretia said:


> :sarcasmalert:
> 
> 
> 
> Today I cut a slice of bread, a couple slices of cheese, cleaned up a pork tenderloin, and will chop up a couple zucchinis, an onion, a carrot, and a handful of mushrooms. A meat band saw is obviously overkill for EVERYONE. NO ONE should be allowed to use one. I AM RIGHT!!!!!! And anyone who disagrees with me is an IDJIT. Especially if they have a different level of education, work in a professional kitchen, are a home cook, are a different gender, different political bent, or the wind is out of the east or south.
> 
> 
> Anyone for popcorn?



If its not Orville Redenbacher then no thank you!


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## Dusty

Deleted post. 
Wrong thread.


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## stevenStefano

labor of love said:


> afterall, the way i sharpen suits my needs. to each their own.



I agree with this. The way I sharpen is pretty far from perfect and not exactly the way most people would do it, but it works, so I don't give a damn if I'm maintaining the geometry and all that to be honest. Different strokes for different folks. So someone may look at my knives and say I'm doing it wrong, which in itself would be wrong, knives are tools for certain tasks and if it fits the tasks I give it, how can it be wrong? I have an MSc and I'm a pro chef. Does that make me smart?


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## CrisAnderson27

Lucretia said:


> :sarcasmalert:
> 
> 
> 
> Today I cut a slice of bread, a couple slices of cheese, cleaned up a pork tenderloin, and will chop up a couple zucchinis, an onion, a carrot, and a handful of mushrooms. A meat band saw is obviously overkill for EVERYONE. NO ONE should be allowed to use one. I AM RIGHT!!!!!! And anyone who disagrees with me is an IDJIT. Especially if they have a different level of education, work in a professional kitchen, are a home cook, are a different gender, different political bent, or the wind is out of the east or south.
> 
> 
> Anyone for popcorn?



As long as it has real butter, thank you!


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## Zwiefel

Lucretia said:


> Anyone for popcorn?



I started to post this earlier and decided against it...maybe now is the time..


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## Ruso

lus1:


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## ThEoRy

EdipisReks said:


> so do lots of professional cooks, and most of those professional cooks probably have crappy, poorly maintained knives. so, once again, this means nothing.



I agree, however, I am not one of those pro cooks as you well know. So in this regard, again, it means something. At this point it's pretty clear you're just trolling now.


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## TheDispossessed

Maybe just stirring the pot but here goes.
My last chef was a complete and total bad ass in the kitchen, with a strong reputation around NYCs top kitchen's to boot.
Strangely, he had great knife skills, but could not sharpen or maintain a knife for ****. He came up in a time before J-Knives and whetstones were popular. He openly admitted to me as one of his cooks that he sucked at sharpening, as his ego wasn't invested in it. 
So being a bad ass chef for two decades likely means great knife skills, not necessarily sharpening technique.


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## cheflarge

Sort of supports the point that I have been trying to make all a long. Are not these the type of people that we should "assist" in getting on the right path??? I don't feel as though anyone with a lack of knowledge and the willingness to learn should come on this board and be bullied, humiliated and bashed for something that they are trying to get better at. I don't think it's right for some swollen up turd (whom has never worked in the industry) to be such a condasending jerk. I have been in the business for over thirty five years and HATE seeing our "future" trashed, because of a lack of sharing our very valuable knowledge. Just my humble opinion.


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## Chuckles

Technique aside - Could he tell if a knife cut well or not?


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## Crothcipt

I have worked with 3 types of cooks. One that didn't even bother to worry about what was in his hand, and would take forever with whatever he was doing because he was going to "make it work".

another is the cook that would take time to steel his knife, but when it went dull would try to "make it work". At times this guy will just grab another knife hoping it will at least cut. The "make it work" guy doesn't think much about anything other than what he has been shown. Doesn't want to do more than what will get him out the door.

The next cook would be the one that never uses a knife for anything other than to open a box. Like most people at home.(If your reading this you prob. don't fit here) Just doesn't care. 

The third one wants to know how stuff works and how to make it better. Usually the knives are at least looked after, if they own any. If they don't own any they go looking for something to make them sharp. Like anything else they find that there isn't enough time to learn everything out there.

I have seen people in all 3 categories that can sharpen knives. Being learned some time before. How good they can sharpen is something all together. Many times what people think is sharp isn't there at all. 

If you are reading this thread you are prob. in the 3rd category, wondering how much time it will take to learn this. I know I have tested/tried knives that needed some help with thinning, and also have tried quite a few that were over thinned to a point the original grind was pretty much removed for the equation. When I first read the title of this thread I thought all the thinned knives that would chip because they were to thin. 

At this point in time I forgot what my original thought was and how I was gonna make it. (I type slow) But it doesn't matter if you are home cook or a pro. your attention to detail will put you into either of these 3 cooks. Getting to know how to sharpen, is about learning the fundamentals, and getting the feel of them. I have had easier time making hollandaise sauce than learning some angles of knives. Add thinning to the mix can be even tougher. 

I have seen bad knives by both pro and home cooks. Most are usually in the second category I listed, but they are also usually afraid of them too. When I tell them about my knives I get a scoffing look, then I have them cut with them its a totally new world. Most knives I see that are used need to be thinned, but usually never to make it very thin.


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## TheDispossessed

Another thing to consider, different geometries for different uses. a touring bicycle and a track bicycle have radically different frame geometries, which create a completely different type of ride, appropriate for the intended use. so there's not necessarily one right way, one ideal knife geometry.


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## labor of love

TheDispossessed said:


> Another thing to consider, different geometries for different uses. a touring bicycle and a track bicycle have radically different frame geometries, which create a completely different type of ride, appropriate for the intended use. so there's not necessarily one right way, one ideal knife geometry.



+1. thinner is definitely not always better. but were primarily talking about maintaining the geometry of a knife. geometry preferences is something i keep in mind when purchasing a knife more often than not.


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## NO ChoP!

This is my reason for owning numerous gyutos. Different knives for different tasks.


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## panda

when i first started with jknives, my sharpening skills were horrible but i could still get a sharp edge. well as sharp as the edge might have been, my knives still didn't cut very well until i eventually started thinning and altering the geometry not understanding what i was really doing or why it worked. basically got the 'ah ha' moment by sheer luck/accident trial & error. i now have my own technique and pretty much sharpen every knife the same and get consistent results regardless of the blades original geometry. they each cut slightly different but the performance is at a level where i am comfortable with.

i don't rotate out different gyutos for different tasks, i just randomly choose one for what ever one i feel like using. the one gyuto i consider my best performing one, i only use for mass prep work as it's really too big for most things.


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## Keith Sinclair

NO ChoP! said:


> This is my reason for owning numerous gyutos. Different knives for different tasks.



Not only numerous gyuto's,Diff. blades entirely in my experience.Yanagi's for banquet platters of sashimi & sushi topping to bone cleavers for ginger chix.Always kept a thin carbon lazor for certain tasks.Various gyuto & cleavers.

I feel very fortunate to have learned a sharpening tech. that has served me well for almost 30 years.Most of the Pro's here are ahead of the curve wt. sharpening & have diff. tech that work for them, it is so important to have a sharp well performing knife.

Now I enjoy teaching cooks in the field & culinary students because I know it will really pay off down the line for them.I will continue on this forum to push freehand to beginners because I feel the more out there the better & its the best way to sharpen.

Just reading threads I know there are some excellent sharpeners here.From straight razors to Japanese single bevel.I would not even begin to get into a pissing battle on tech.:knife:


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## jaybett

Nothing earth shattering in the video, but the comment about chef's with $400 knives is interesting. 

[video=youtube;mtAU51AEzho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtAU51AEzho[/video]

Jay


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## richinva

jaybett said:


> Nothing earth shattering in the video, but the comment about chef's with $400 knives is interesting.
> 
> [video=youtube;mtAU51AEzho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtAU51AEzho[/video]
> 
> Jay



That video was actually insulting to me........sure I'd rather have anything sharp over anything dull, but that isn't really a comparison. Silly clown.......


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## NO ChoP!

And that looked like an early model j knife. Grandfather to the Mac. Thin as heck, decent moly steel, probably hardened to about 58.....


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## knyfeknerd

such a stoopid video. Refile this in the knucklehedz thread.


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## panda

he should have compared it to a shun but both sharpened


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## quantumcloud509

jaybett said:


> Nothing earth shattering in the video, but the comment about chef's with $400 knives is interesting.
> 
> [video=youtube;mtAU51AEzho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtAU51AEzho[/video]
> 
> Jay



What about if you sharpen your $1000 knife and not keep it dull genius?


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## brainsausage

quantumcloud509 said:


> What about if you sharpen your $1000 knife and not keep it dull genius?



Quantum! Nice to see you back on the forum!


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## quantumcloud509

Thank you, thank you


----------

