# Doing Takeda like Takeda Used to do Takeda



## Dave Martell

Takeda Hamono used to be known for making some of the thinnest knives that could be found. They were forged with a unique cross section that allows for good food release, great sturdy kurouchi finish, prefect flat bevels that locked onto stones for easy sharpening, and ground so thin at the edge bevel that their knives would simply fall through the food being cut. In the last couple of years we've seen these knives getting thicker and thicker, the bevels ground more convex (not flat) which makes for difficult sharpening, and the kurouchi finish easily wearing off. 

The knife being shown below is a typical new style thick wedgy bevel Takeda. Actually the very edge itself was thin enough but directly behind it the grind is convex and then there's a really thick hump/lump of steel at the shoulder (where the bevel transitions into the blade face). Also, the kurouchi finish shows it's wear here pretty badly. This knife came in for sharpening service but had some edge damage which meant that I had to grind up into the edge bevel to remove the nicks making the edge bevel even more thick. This then meant that I had to correct by raising (grinding) the shoulder of the bevel up into the kurouchi portion of blade face. 

On the nicely ground old stock Takeda gyutos this was an easy and even pleasant task to do but not so here on this new style knife. This simple task, to thin the edge bevel (grind down the hump/lump), took me over 5 hrs to accomplish by hand!! The total sharpening job on the knife was over *6hrs*!!!

Why did I do this all by hand and not use my belt grinder? Because I found a Moritaka style overground section just in front of the heel (something new for Takeda) and this required that I use a gentle touch to which I felt could only be done through hand sharpening on stones. I wasn't thrilled with this but I pressed on.

In the end I believe that I've modified this knife into one of the best performing Takedas that has ever existed. I am 100% confident that the customer will be blown away when it gets back in her hands. Still though, you can see some pretty deep hammer blow marks at the shoulder (again something new for Takeda) that remain ugly - it's certainly not the prettiest Takeda I've laid my eyes upon - sort of a sleeper (now) ......I guess you could say.


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## TheDispossessed

Interesting. Looks like a definite improvement Dave.
I, like many, had always wanted a Takeda but came way too late to the party. The two knives I bought (and promptly sold) left me thoroughly unimpressed, especially at the price point. I feel very strongly that Takeda's are phenomenally overpriced and overhyped. You get crazy inconsistent profiles, terrible grinds, a totally unnecessary blob of epoxy (isn't the tang stainless?!), a handle too small, forge scale and lacquer crumbling all into your food. No thanks. Who else gets away with this at such a price? I also take a huge issue with the, "it's handmade so there's all this variability" claim. Really? Ashi Hamono knives are handmade and you could line up a hundred of em and struggle to see the difference, and that's just one shop. Speaking of which I had a (Gesshin) Ginga Gyuto that I worked over 5mm off the profile in three years of use and never once encountered an overgrind or bad spot. This quality issue w Takeda is total BS.
Sorry for the rant but I've been holding my tongue and waiting for a time to speak my mind about Takeda Hamono.
I hope the owner is very pleased with the new knife.
Cheers
Matteo


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## Dave Martell

Rant away! They is what they is.


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## aboynamedsuita

Very tempting, I have some Takedas


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## gic

Are the stainless clad "new" takedas as bad?


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## chinacats

I sold mine because I didn't have the fortitude for five hours (if it took you 5 it would take me much more) of labor. I bet this will be a great knife...Really believed mine would've been great once the work had been done.


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## Dave Martell

gic said:


> Are the stainless clad "new" takedas as bad?




Oh yeah


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## Dave Martell

chinacats said:


> I sold mine because I didn't have the fortitude for five hours (if it took you 5 it would take me much more) of labor. I bet this will be a great knife...Really believed mine would've been great once the work had been done.




Yeah that's the thing, what an enormous amount of work needed to get it to where it should be.


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## Eric

I got my takeda in 2011 and I have to disagree. It is easily the best cutter I have, including my customs from several talented master smiths. It is beautifully ground, and extremely thin behind the edge. It takes and holds a wicked edge. No over grinds, no wedging. IMO a great value compared to others, and I own many! Eric


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## aboynamedsuita

I could show you a pic of an ootb Takeda NAS gyuto that is a total abortion. Fortunately I wasn't stuck with it as it. The one I have now cuts well but it seems like the spine and edge are not parallel towards the heel. It doesn't sit quite flat either (you can wobble it slightly by pressing on various spots on the blade, same story but different wobble when you flip it over). Not sure if it was damaged in transport or whatnot


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## Dave Martell

Eric said:


> I got my takeda in 2011 and I have to disagree. It is easily the best cutter I have, including my customs from several talented master smiths. It is beautifully ground, and extremely thin behind the edge. It takes and holds a wicked edge. No over grinds, no wedging. IMO a great value compared to others, and I own many! Eric




Over a 10 yr + time span I've seen many a Takeda that I'd like to own and many others that looked fine to me but none like that in the last couple of years.


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## turbochef422

You don't have a before and after choil shot do you? I've had 4 takeda gyutos. 3 were awesome cutters and were older and 1 not so good. The one that needs work is 4 years old but in like new condition so I suspect this has been happening for years now. And to be honest in the more "main stream" clients takeda seems hotter than ever. I do think it's worth the work if you find a used one in the $250 range. But a new one at $380 is just too much in my opinion.


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## Dave Martell

I just recieved an email from an old friend with no text - just a link. I clicked on the link and laughed my ass off. When I responded to the email my friend said _"here's the reason for Takeda's problem's"._....I laughed my ass off again.

Here's what I saw when I clicked on the link.....


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## Livlif

How did you darken the kurouchi?


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## chinacats

Dave Martell said:


> I just recieved an email from an old friend with no text - just a link. I clicked on the link and laughed my ass off. When I responded to the email my friend said _"here's the reason for Takeda's problem's"._....I laughed my ass off again.
> 
> Here's what I saw when I clicked on the link.....



LMAO, that certainly does explain away every problem knife he's ever made.


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## ecchef

*SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!*


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## panda

If you know what you are doing or can afford to have somebody else do the work for you they are bar none the best knife you can get. I say this with utmost confidence in the knife's potential. 

Looks like a worthwhile effort Dave, that's going to be one psyched customer!! People put too much stock in choil shots, they don't even know what they are looking at anyway they just want to see thinness like it's the only thing there is to a grind.


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## Dave Martell

Livlif said:


> How did you darken the kurouchi?




I started with a King 800x, then moved onto a synthetic aoto, and then finished with a Suehiro Rika 5k.


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## Dave Martell

Livlif said:


> How did you darken the kurouchi?





Dave Martell said:


> I started with a King 800x, then moved onto a synthetic aoto, and then finished with a Suehiro Rika 5k.




Doh! My answer above is for the bevel - not the kurouchi obviously. :O


The correct answer is that I blued it.


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## ecchef

A soak in a solution of hot water and "Iron Out" will blacken an iron cladding pretty quickly with a very durable coating.


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## labor of love

ecchef said:


> A soak in a solution of hot water and "Iron Out" will blacken an iron cladding pretty quickly with a very durable coating.



Does Iron out remove Kurouchi finish in the process, or just darken it? In the before pics there are spots where the Kurouchi is gone, but in the after pics the finish is even in color and texture once again.....I like it really like whatever dave did to the Kurouchi.


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## TheDispossessed

panda said:


> If you know what you are doing or can afford to have somebody else do the work for you they are bar none the best knife you can get. I say this with utmost confidence in the knife's potential.


Whoa
that is a crazy bold statement to make. I would argue they are some of the worst knives you can currently buy for the $. 
'Bar none?!' So a poorly ground knife with well known sweeping quality control issues is the 'best you can get?' Sorry but I could not disagree more. Give me one hour with a zakuri and I'll give you a better knife than a Takeda for a fraction of a fraction of the cost.
To be courteous, Just my opinion.


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## Livlif

Thanks. Looks sweet! How did you blue it if you don't mind me asking. 



Dave Martell said:


> Doh! My answer above is for the bevel - not the kurouchi obviously. :O
> 
> 
> The correct answer is that I blued it.


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## TheDispossessed

TheDispossessed said:


> Whoa
> that is a crazy bold statement to make. I would argue they are some of the worst knives you can currently buy for the $.
> 'Bar none?!' So a poorly ground knife with well known sweeping quality control issues is the 'best you can get?' Sorry but I could not disagree more. Give me one hour with a zakuri and I'll give you a better knife than a Takeda for a fraction of a fraction of the cost.
> To be courteous, Just my opinion.



Ahem. My apologies I had a bottle of white burgundy while watching the NY Philharmonic last night in the park. I finished the whole thing to head because I thought Tyrion Lannister would have done the same. When I came home I became particularly incensed about Takeda Hamono for some reason. While I stand by what I said, I also didn't mean to rip into anyone's joy for their knife kit or favorite smith.
Cheers!
Matteo


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## designdog

I agree with the differences in the "new" Takedas. Also do not like the smaller tangs on the SS knives. The "original" Takedas were very difficult for novice sharpeners to handle. I remember forum conversations I had with Dave on this subject, and I wound up selling mine for this reason. I also remember these Takedas were some of the few knives that actually stuck to my board when using them. Unfortunately, at the time, I was too ignorant to sharpen them.

Recently I bought new gyuto, nakiri, and suji. They were of the new grind and I am in the process of selling them all. Too bad...


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## brianh

I wish if Takeda read this thread it would give him food for thought, but highly doubtful.


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## XooMG

I'm sure plenty of folks from these communities have brought it up with him.


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## brianh

Yeah, I did too a year or so ago. Got the "these are handmade and have variations" spiel.


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## tcmx3

XooMG said:


> I'm sure plenty of folks from these communities have brought it up with him.



"The take was terrific but the critics killed me. My brother George cried all the way to the bank."


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## Sparklepony

very cool


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## aboynamedsuita

I've been reading thru Dave's older thread on the issue (from January 2014 IIRC), I'm only about 1/3 done but some good info.

Perhaps Takeda rehabs can be the next generation of Hiromoto AS


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## EdipisReks

It's really a shame that Takeda has allowed the knives to change (for whatever reason). They truly were fantastic, back in the day. I bet this knife will be totally worth all the time and effort, Dave, though those remaining hammer marks really tell me just _how_ much effort it really was. I've cold-blued Kuro-uchi knives, after the finish has flaked, but I've never gotten it as even as you did here. Superb.


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## Dinsdale

Well, I have to ask and you can PM the answer but what was the cost to get that Takeda to look the way it does. I have a newer one also that could use the same treatment.


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## Dave Martell

Dinsdale said:


> Well, I have to ask and you can PM the answer but what was the cost to get that Takeda to look the way it does. I have a newer one also that could use the same treatment.




I didn't charge this customer for every bit of the work I performed, I only charged her for what she asked for and needed for the repair & sharpening. The extra 5hrs of work was done because I wanted to see what it would take to get the knife to perform just like his older style grind used to and for that I didn't charge for. Now that I know I can assess and quote a customer beforehand.

So what would it cost then? 

I've been asked that a couple of times since starting this thread and my answer has been vague because I really don't want to answer and that's because while it'd be necessary to charge for my time it seems so ridiculous to make such a quote. Instead let me say that I could grind two Martell knives in the same time it took me to fix this Takeda and then you'd have an idea of what it'd cost which certainly wouldn't be worth it.


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