# Cladded pan vs Disc pan



## blokey (Oct 15, 2022)

Just come across this video on youtube, this channel has a lot of good information on different pans. I use to think only cladded pans and pots are good but the Fissler blew me away with its godly heat distribution. Anyway here's a interesting video, he also did alot of good comparison on different pans.


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## Jovidah (Oct 15, 2022)

Keep in mind that he uses an electric glasstop stove; that does somewhat skew his perspectives.
That being said, both pan types have their strengths and weaknesses, also depends on what and how you're cooking.
I still wished there were more hybrid designs like the abandoned Lagostina Lagofusion.... best of both worlds.


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## blokey (Oct 15, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> Keep in mind that he uses an electric glasstop stove; that does somewhat skew his perspectives.
> That being said, both pan types have their strengths and weaknesses, also depends on what and how you're cooking.
> I still wished there were more hybrid designs like the abandoned Lagostina Lagofusion.... best of both worlds.


That's true, most small diameter dick bottom pan don't work well on gas, I do find large ones like saute pan works really well.


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## Michi (Oct 15, 2022)

I have a 30+ year old Fissler frying pan, 11" or so. It has a thick disk on the bottom, no cladding up the sides. But that pan performs very, very well. Holds heat almost as well as a cast iron skillet. And it's pretty much indestructible. Has been through the dishwasher many thousands of times.


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## sumis (Oct 15, 2022)

when do you really need the sides of a pan to be hot? and why?
sometimes you really want that, other times it is certainly a disadvantage (or even a nuisance).
i use both.
i don't use gas.

.


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## Jovidah (Oct 15, 2022)

I like heated sides on curved frying pans because it makes easier to brown meat by putting it in the corner (and maybe angling the meat). 
I also like it on curved saucepans; heats the thing more evenly all over the place.
Whenever I'm boiling water I couldn't care less..but when I'm boiling water I see little reason to use anything more than a 15 euro Ikea pan.

In general on gas stoves they just...seem to work better. Maybe it's because they also 'catch' and distribute some of the heat that otherwise gets lost along the sides?


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## coxhaus (Oct 15, 2022)

I would think if you don't have clad sides that maybe the gas that goes up the sides can burn or run at a hotter temperature.

Now that I have gas, I have given away all my disc bottom pans. They don't react fast enough for me on gas. I bought clad pans for my gas range. I recently bought a copper pan with a stainless liner, but they are pricey.


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## Justinv (Oct 15, 2022)

Cladded sides are good in the oven.


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## Ant4d (Oct 19, 2022)

I have disc and a copper pan though no clad. I look at the cost of AllClad and honestly can bear to part with the dough. My main pans are carbon steel DE buyer Carbone Plus and they work on Induction and gas. They are second to none once seasoned and they get hot everywhere sides to for omelettes. They don't do long slow types of cooking as the seasoning tends comes off. That type of cooking is best left for stainless, copper etc.


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## Jovidah (Oct 20, 2022)

Ant4d said:


> I have disc and a copper pan though no clad. I look at the cost of AllClad and honestly can bear to part with the dough. My main pans are carbon steel DE buyer Carbone Plus and they work on Induction and gas. They are second to none once seasoned and they get hot everywhere sides to for omelettes. They don't do long slow types of cooking as the seasoning tends comes off. That type of cooking is best left for stainless, copper etc.


Don't get me wrong, I like my carbon steel de Buyer pans too, but they do have some limitations. Their ability to spread heat when working on sub-optimal stoves (like a modest sized induction ring) is really quite underwhelming...and anything involving acids can become quite problematic as you'll just strip the seasoning. On top of that they're a bit more fussy in cleanup. I still like them nevertheless, but I do use my stainless clads more than my carbon steel pans.


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## blokey (Oct 20, 2022)

Ant4d said:


> I have disc and a copper pan though no clad. I look at the cost of AllClad and honestly can bear to part with the dough. My main pans are carbon steel DE buyer Carbone Plus and they work on Induction and gas. They are second to none once seasoned and they get hot everywhere sides to for omelettes. They don't do long slow types of cooking as the seasoning tends comes off. That type of cooking is best left for stainless, copper etc.


There are some cheaper but equally good stuff like Tramontina or Cuisinart Multiclad pro, All clad and Demeyere/Zwilling also run sale some times.


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## Ant4d (Oct 20, 2022)

blokey said:


> There are some cheaper but equally good stuff like Tramontina or Cuisinart Multiclad pro, All clad and Demeyere/Zwilling also run sale some times.


I have some Taramontina pots I bought in the mid 80s and still have them, they have been great. Ill have a look at their new stuff.
Cheers


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## Ant4d (Oct 20, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> Don't get me wrong, I like my carbon steel de Buyer pans too, but they do have some limitations. Their ability to spread heat when working on sub-optimal stoves (like a modest sized induction ring) is really quite underwhelming...and anything involving acids can become quite problematic as you'll just strip the seasoning. On top of that they're a bit more fussy in cleanup. I still like them nevertheless, but I do use my stainless clads more than my carbon steel pans.


Yeah, I get the acid stripping the seasoning off as you mentioned and also the clean-up sometimes is a pain.
Cheers


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## btbyrd (Oct 20, 2022)

All Clad runs periodic sales on factory seconds. On eBay, Capital Cookware (user name: capitalcookware1) are an authorized All Clad retailer that have a bunch of open box and scratch-and-dent items for way cheap compared to normal retail prices.


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## Jovidah (Oct 20, 2022)

In general for cookware it's worth waiting for good sales. There's usually good deals around the 'usual' shopping holidays like amazon prime and black friday, and you usually see a lot of kitchenware sales after christmas (january/february). Never pay MSRP!


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## blokey (Oct 20, 2022)

I recently grabbed this pan when it was on sale for around $90, very good quality, same thickness as all clad and the double wall lid really works well. Now it's slightly more expensive.





Essential Pan | Williams Sonoma


Shop Essential%20Pan from Williams Sonoma. Our expertly crafted collections offer a wide of range of cooking tools and kitchen appliances, including a variety of Essential%20Pan.




www.williams-sonoma.com


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## boomchakabowwow (Oct 20, 2022)

my Fissler pressure cooker is a a disc. i hate how when cooking liquid splashes up the sides it sizzles dramatically. the sides are definately not the same even temp as the bottom. it fluxuates wildly in both directions.


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## salparadise (Oct 20, 2022)

blokey said:


> There are some cheaper but equally good stuff like Tramontina or Cuisinart Multiclad pro, All clad and Demeyere/Zwilling also run sale some times.


I bought a bunch of Vollrath Tribute (clad) ten years ago and have been quite satisfied. Several sauce pans, a large sauté, and two stock pots only set me back about $600. All Clad would’ve been 3X or more. I was thriftier then of necessity, having a kid in college and fresh off of a divorce. But if I were buying again today I can’t say I’d do it differently. Really high-quality industrial cookware, minus the label prestige. I also bought De Buyer carbon steel fry pans. Still don’t have a stainless frying pan. Funny how ten years seems so recent.


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## coxhaus (Oct 21, 2022)

I am not sure large stock pans matter. I have some large Revere Ware stock pots I bought a long time ago. They heat fast and seem to work well with liquids. They only lack in one dish that I cook and that is Texas Trash. It is a snack mix I make at Thanksgiving and Christmas time that my grandmother made when I was a little boy. I use a large Le Creuset pot, pan around 15 quarts. I bake the Texas Trash in the oven. I don't think single wall would work. There is a thread posted here with pictures.

I had 1 disc pot about 10 quarts that I got rid of because it took too long to heat water to boil for pasta. I think the disc slowed the boiling process down on my gas range.


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## salparadise (Oct 21, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I had 1 disc pot about 10 quarts that I got rid of because it took too long to heat water to boil for pasta. I think the disc slowed the boiling process down on my gas range.



That’s the thing- you don’t know how the disc is attached (glued?) and how efficiently it transfers heat. If the rest of the pot is stainless it may not be efficient at all. I’m not an expert, but I knew I wanted clad for the other pans and I didn’t see any reason to buy odd disc bottom stock pots. Sure, might have saved a few bucks but not enough to risk performance or durability issues. America’s Test Kitchen had a video showing disc bottoms separating, so I decided on matching tri-ply and they’ve been great for my uses.


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## MowgFace (Oct 21, 2022)

boomchakabowwow said:


> my Fissler pressure cooker is a a disc. i hate how when cooking liquid splashes up the sides it sizzles dramatically. *the sides are definately not the same even temp as the bottom.* it fluxuates wildly in both directions.



This has been critical for me. I like to take a pastry brush, or a silicone basting brush and deglaze the fond that builds during a boil/reduction. With clad cookware, I am able to steal all of the delicious goodness with no worry.

Disc Bottom pan tend to burn the fond on the walls for me, YMMV though, as most people think i am a crazy person when they see me brushing the ID of the pot.


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## tcmx3 (Oct 21, 2022)

I only really like disk bottom for very large pots. If you're boiling water for pasta or potatoes it's fine and it cuts down the weight and cost.

For something where I'm using the surface itself to cook, I prefer fully clad. Demeyere sometimes does disk bottom for Atlantis/Proline depending on shape and I actually buy the Industry 5s instead. The 12.6" Proline pan I have is potentially the single best non-knife thing I have in my kitchen, I mean maybe my Vitamix is competitive? I have temped it on my burners, both high power and the lower power ones, and the evenness is shocking for non-copper cookware. JMO/JMO


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## Michi (Oct 21, 2022)

For anything that has lots of liquid, literally any kind of pot will do fine, no matter the material, because the pot cannot get hotter than 100 ºC.


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## Justinv (Oct 21, 2022)

It depends on the liquid. For example pie filling needs fruit to be heated to activate the thickener. Clad pans heat the sides better so its heated evenly. You don’t want to overcook fruit. Similar situation with jam.


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## superworrier (Oct 21, 2022)

Michi said:


> For anything that has lots of liquid, literally any kind of pot will do fine, no matter the material, because the pot cannot get hotter than 100 ºC.


This kind of assumes infinite conductivity and whatnot, which is not true of course. With thin pots on gas, I too have gotten the "sizzle" on the part of the pot above the water. With a thicker liquid, there would likely be burning there.


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## Michi (Oct 22, 2022)

superworrier said:


> This kind of assumes infinite conductivity and whatnot, which is not true of course. With thin pots on gas, I too have gotten the "sizzle" on the part of the pot above the water. With a thicker liquid, there would likely be burning there.


Sure, the thicker the contents, the more likely that hotspots will cause scorching. But what I said still stands, I think. It really doesn't matter whether I use a high-end copper pot or a cheap stainless steel one for heating soups and the like.


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## Jovidah (Oct 22, 2022)

Depends on how thick the soup is...  

But when it comes to 'boiling water' I agree... you can do that in just about any metal bucket or container. But when you go towards stew territory I think the pan design starts mattering more.


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## superworrier (Oct 22, 2022)

Also depends on how bad the pot is. You can boil water in a plastic bag over a flame but it’s gonna suck.


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## nickw_ (Oct 23, 2022)

I’m really a fan of thick copper pans with a tin (or silver) lining. I’ve been hunting vintage pieces and slowly converting over most my SS cookware. Although I have a few new pieces too. Overall, I find them a joy to use, excellent heat distribution, very responsive, non stick, and visually beautiful. They make me happy, much like my Japanese’s knives do.


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## blokey (Nov 8, 2022)

All Clad sale event now


https://homeandcooksales.com/


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## mengwong (Nov 8, 2022)

Thanks for that @blokey, you helped me land a "$600" copper core 6-qt saute pan for the price of a $240 3-ply. (For anyone reading this after the sale is over, Williams Sonoma regularly runs the 4-qt Cu-mai at $250, the 5-qt 5-ply too, so you didn't miss _that_ much.) I'm going to use this for frying Brussels sprouts on my not-nearly-large-enough induction.


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## coxhaus (Nov 8, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Thanks for that @blokey, you helped me land a "$600" copper core 6-qt saute pan for the price of a $240 3-ply. (For anyone reading this after the sale is over, Williams Sonoma regularly runs the 4-qt Cu-mai at $250, the 5-qt 5-ply too, so you didn't miss _that_ much.) I'm going to use this for frying Brussels sprouts on my not-nearly-large-enough induction.



Nice. That 6 quart is a beast. I have the 5 qt and 3 qt copper core.


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## Jovidah (Nov 8, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Thanks for that @blokey, you helped me land a "$600" copper core 6-qt saute pan for the price of a $240 3-ply. (For anyone reading this after the sale is over, Williams Sonoma regularly runs the 4-qt Cu-mai at $250, the 5-qt 5-ply too, so you didn't miss _that_ much.) I'm going to use this for frying Brussels sprouts on my not-nearly-large-enough induction.



IMO bit of a deceptive picture considering how much of a difference thickness makes. Even with copper thickness matters... Then there's also heat capacity to think of.
With induction stoves in general...after using some with smaller burners I'm inclined to think it might make sense to invest more in a better stove than in better pans.


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## btbyrd (Nov 8, 2022)

My Copper Core still has a huge hot spot on my not-nearly-large-enough induction burner. Same with my AC D7. Unfortunately, a nice pan can't really compensate for the faults of small induction coils.


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## Helicon (Nov 8, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> My Copper Core still has a huge hot spot on my not-nearly-large-enough induction burner. Same with my AC D7. Unfortunately, a nice pan can't really compensate for the faults of small induction coils.


It depends on the construction of the pan itself. Most clad pans – like your Copper Core and D7 – can't compensate for small induction coils, since they simply don't have enough conductive material to spread the heat laterally. But aluminum disc-based cookware and hybrid designs work extremely well and can manage even when much wider than the induction coil.


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## coxhaus (Nov 8, 2022)

At some point you need to consider reaction time or lack of.


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## Helicon (Nov 8, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> At some point you need to consider reaction time or lack of.


For most recipes, I'd rather have an even-heating pan than a fast-reacting one. The only exceptions are things like delicate sauces. Plus there are plenty of dishes where temperature stability is paramount – long braises and stews, for example. Pans with high responsiveness tend to either over- or under-shoot the mark in these situations. Heat capacity and evenness are much more important for these sorts of dishes.


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## coxhaus (Nov 8, 2022)

I can kind of see your point of view as I figured out copper works great for roasting bones compared to carbon steel. Deglazing the fond on my copper pan had a beautiful color and taste whereas deglazing the fond on the carbon steel pan was black and ugly. I plan not to use carbon steel in my oven from now on. They were both cooked in a Viking range at the same time using convection.

But for gas and stove top I want my All Clad copper core pans and my copper pan.

I am only a home cook muddling my way through.


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## blokey (Nov 8, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Thanks for that @blokey, you helped me land a "$600" copper core 6-qt saute pan for the price of a $240 3-ply. (For anyone reading this after the sale is over, Williams Sonoma regularly runs the 4-qt Cu-mai at $250, the 5-qt 5-ply too, so you didn't miss _that_ much.) I'm going to use this for frying Brussels sprouts on my not-nearly-large-enough induction.



Tbh I think he used Falk rather than copper core which have a lot more copper.


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## blokey (Nov 8, 2022)

blokey said:


> All Clad sale event now
> 
> 
> https://homeandcooksales.com/


I got the MC2 skillet, only 2 layers compare to the 3 layers of other All Clad, but the aluminum layer is over 3mm thick so the heat retention and evenness should be one of the best in their line. 





In-Depth Product Review: All-Clad MC2 Master Chef 2 aka MC² 12-inch skillet (frying pan)


In-Depth Product Review: All-Clad MC2 Masterchef 2 Master Chef 2 12-inch skillet (frying pan)




www.centurylife.org


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## coxhaus (Nov 8, 2022)

blokey said:


> I got the MC2 skillet, only 2 layers compare to the 3 layers of other All Clad, but the aluminum layer is over 3mm thick so the heat retention and evenness should be one of the best in their line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am trying to figure this out. I have 1 small MC sauce pan which is very handy as I like the rounded bottom. MC is thicker than MC2 from what I have read. I have 2 LTD fry pans 1 being a 10-inch and 1 being 14-inch which is really new. Plus, I have all my copper core pans.

I don't own any MC2 or LTD2. Is LTD thicker than LTD2? I don't know.

PS
Sounds like your guy likes MC2 best but then the old MC line should be better as it is thicker than the MC2 line. I do like my MC saucepan and I don't own a copper core to compare.
I am not seeing a difference in the LTD line of fry pans to the copper core. I am still liking my copper core fry pans. Maybe the 14-inch LTD pan will give me some insight. I have not used it enough. I am having a hard time not using my copper pan.

I have used my 5 quart copper core pan making Marcella Hazan meat sauce cooking it for 10 hours and it looked good. The bottom was clean. I have tried it with my made in 10quart and the bottom is not clean, not burnt either, just a little tomato sticking to the bottom. Who knows, it is an Italian made pan and maybe the center bottom is adding flavor.

And of course, my copper pan is really nice. It was a William Sonoma copper pan made in France. The price is the issue as I think it was around $700 new.


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## blokey (Nov 8, 2022)

Don't know either, but 3mm of aluminium is thicker than D3 and D5, only slightly behind D7 and Demeyere proline, but MC2 are significantly cheaper.

BTW anyone have experience with Mauviel 2mm copper stuff? This looks like a good deal








Mauviel M200B Copper Skillet, 10.2" | Cutlery and More


Shop for Mauviel M200B Fry Pans & Skillets at Cutlery and More. We are your source for everything Mauviel with FREE shipping on orders over $49. We are experts in kitchen knives & cookware.




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## coxhaus (Nov 8, 2022)

blokey said:


> Don't know either, but 3mm of aluminium is thicker than D3 and D5, only slightly behind D7 and Demeyere proline, but MC2 are significantly cheaper.
> 
> BTW anyone have experience with Mauviel 2mm copper stuff? This looks like a good deal
> 
> ...


I ordered one. It is kind of small and thin, but it is a good way to test it.

I did not like my D5 10-inch fry pan. I sold it. I do not have induction as I use gas. I assume it would work better on induction or electric.

I have been drinking and sometimes I get wordy. I had sugar cookies for desert, so I had to have bourbon to go with my sugar cookies. I think the wine did not count with dinner.


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## blokey (Nov 8, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I ordered one. It is kind of small and thin, but it is a good way to test it.


Seems like a great deal, let us know how it performs.


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## Justinv (Nov 9, 2022)

blokey said:


> I got the MC2 skillet, only 2 layers compare to the 3 layers of other All Clad, but the aluminum layer is over 3mm thick so the heat retention and evenness should be one of the best in their line.


I am a huge fan of MC2. I once had d3, MC2, and D5 in 10” skillets. D5 was slow and unresponsive. D3 was too responsive and more uneven and it didn’t hold enough heat to sear. MC2 hit the sweet spot between responsive and searing. I got rid of d3 and d5 skillets.

I also have some original MC and have not noticed a difference with MC2 other than appearance but I can check. LTD and LTD2 has same thickness and performance presumably but I don’t own any.

I also own french copper (bourgeat, mauviel 2.5mm) which is definitely better but pricy. I have never been tempted to upgrade my 12” or 10” mc2 skillets to copper.


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## Jovidah (Nov 9, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> At some point you need to consider reaction time or lack of.


Yep.... this is one of the reasons I think at some point it's better to fix the stove than to fix the pans. You can to some extent fix a bad stove by just making the pans stupid thick, but it also means they get a lot heavier, take forever to heat up, respond far slower, and become far more expensive. It's a bit like putting the horse behind the wagon IMO.


coxhaus said:


> I can kind of see your point of view as I figured out copper works great for roasting bones compared to carbon steel. Deglazing the fond on my copper pan had a beautiful color and taste whereas deglazing the fond on the carbon steel pan was black and ugly. I plan not to use carbon steel in my oven from now on. They were both cooked in a Viking range at the same time using convection.
> 
> But for gas and stove top I want my All Clad copper core pans and my copper pan.
> 
> ...


Honestly I think the difference might not be due to one pan being carbon steel and hte other being copper, but simply due to boiling out some of the seasoning in the carbon steel pan. If you had used any other clean pan with a stainless lining I think the results would likely have been similar to the copper pan.


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## Helicon (Nov 9, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> You can to some extent fix a bad stove by just making the pans stupid thick, but it also means they get a lot heavier, take forever to heat up, respond far slower, and become far more expensive. It's a bit like putting the horse behind the wagon IMO.


I was replying to btbyrd, who uses induction. With induction (and to a lesser extent, with gas) there's not a downside to using aluminum disc-based cookware with between 3-6 mm of aluminum in the base. They're still far lighter than just about all copper cookware, far less expensive, and take minimal time to heat up. Their only real downside is downward responsiveness, which as I indicated in my previous post is only truly important when making delicate sauces. If I kill the power on my induction cooktop to a thick (6-7 mm aluminum) disc-based pan, the heat will stop rising immediately, and begin to fall after about 10 seconds. That's not going to ruin any dish. And the difference in pan floor evenness is astonishing.

Induction cooktops generally create more concentrated hot-spotting within cookware, so having a thicker conductive layer on the bottom is far more important that spreading the heat to the perimeter of the sidewalls (as in clad). Of course, YMMV, but I've yet to meet a single induction user who's disappointed by the performance of this type of cookware on their cooktops.


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## coxhaus (Nov 9, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> Honestly I think the difference might not be due to one pan being carbon steel and hte other being copper, but simply due to boiling out some of the seasoning in the carbon steel pan. If you had used any other clean pan with a stainless lining I think the results would likely have been similar to the copper pan.


The pan was clean no carbon build up as I use chain mail to clean my carbon steel. If you look at the carbon steel pan in my picture you will notice where there is black burned on. This came out of the bones and the carbon steel pan burned it. My copper pan had none of this. The black burned on which happened as it was roasting is the reason the fond is black ugly. The copper pan had none of this. I am guessing but I would say a better heat sink to where there were no hot spots. And if you look at the link I have a before it went into the oven picture. Don't read the whole thread just go to the end of the thread to where I have the frozen meat in the pans at the start.





Dark Beef Stock for French Onion Soup


My stockpot. 10 qt zavor stovetop pressure cooker No evaporation Do you use a roasting pan first and then transfer to the pressure cooker?




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Why don't you try this with a carbon steel pan as I have the instructions on what I did and temperatures in the oven?

When I used my thick cast iron pan I did not have this black build up like the carbon steel pan. This was done at an earlier point in time so not exactly the same. But I feel good about my cast iron pan in the oven just not my carbon steel pan.
Maybe if the carbon steel pan was thicker, but I would still use my copper pan.


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## Jovidah (Nov 9, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> The pan was clean no carbon build up as I use chain mail to clean my carbon steel. If you look at the carbon steel pan in my picture you will notice where there is black burned on. This came out of the bones and the carbon steel pan burned it. My copper pan had none of this. The black burned on which happened as it was roasting is the reason the fond is black ugly. The copper pan had none of this. I am guessing but I would say a better heat sink to where there were no hot spots. And if you look at the link I have a before it went into the oven picture. Don't read the whole thread just go to the end of the thread to where I have the frozen meat in the pans at the start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it's in the oven, the oven tends to smooth out any conductivity problems so copper shouldn't offer much of a benefit. Whenever I brown my bones (usually chicken scraps) in the oven I literally do it in ultra cheap thin stainless crap. Like I said, I think the fact that the copper pan is stainless on the inside might be a bigger factor here? But I don't really have the means to exhaustively test this.


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## Jeff (Nov 9, 2022)

Like most here, I have many (too many) pots and pans.

I collect vintage cast iron and copper. Daily users are All-Clad and Scan Pan (for non-stick).

One must remember that the origins of copper, carbon steel, and cast iron are from the days when stoves/ranges/ovens lacked the mega BTU output and thermal stability offered today.

Cast iron offered thermal stability.

Copper was very reactive to heat. As the burner got too hot (think wood or coal fired stove) one could move it off heat to control cooking temp. Now days, we just turn a knob. 

So the necessity of those cooking materials has become far less important than it once was.

IMO the remaining important distinctions are heat distribution in large pans (copper) lower heat will emanate up the sides of the pan but too aggressive and it will scorch the bottom.

Magnetic? Obviously induction. Great for heat distribution because it emanates from tje entire pan not the bottom. *** Best deep fryer is Le Creuset on induction ***

Like most home cooks, I tend to over heat pans on the stove, so the thermal dissipation (control) of copper is still useful.


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## coxhaus (Nov 10, 2022)

blokey said:


> Don't know either, but 3mm of aluminium is thicker than D3 and D5, only slightly behind D7 and Demeyere proline, but MC2 are significantly cheaper.


I found this tid bit on the internet about All Clad. It sounds like both D3 and MC2 are 3 ply just arranged differently.
"
I am looking into tri-ply cookware, including All-Clad and found this discussion in a search, so I hope you don't mind if I jump in with a couple of questions regarding the cooking difference in Stainless and MC2 collections.

If the graphics on the All-Clad site are at all accurate, it appears that the stainless on the inside of the MC2 collection is thicker than the interior stainless layer on the Stainless line, but then, of course, has none on the outside. I think it appears that both have similar thicknesses of aluminum and stainless, just distributed differently. The Stainless line has a thicker inner core of aluminum, and the MC2 has aluminum alloy on the outside...Are these differences significant? And by that I mean to the cooking performance, not the look. I cook on a Wolf gas rangetop and want to make sure of even heating, no scorching on the sides, etc."

I also found this and it looks like the newer LTD is lighter than the older LTD. I am still looking for where I read the original MC was thicker than the MC2. It looks like the MC stuff has been stripped off the internet.

And I should add it looks like the original LTD weights more than the MC2. Your logic seems to imply the LTD will be better. I don't think it is that simple.


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## blokey (Nov 10, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I found this tid bit on the internet about All Clad. It sounds like both D3 and MC2 are 3 ply just arranged differently.
> "
> I am looking into tri-ply cookware, including All-Clad and found this discussion in a search, so I hope you don't mind if I jump in with a couple of questions regarding the cooking difference in Stainless and MC2 collections.
> 
> ...



D3 have a lot less aluminum than MC2, it's 2.7mm in total thickness while MC2 is over 3.5mm in total thickness, that's quite significant. It shows in weight too.





In-Depth Product Review: All-Clad MC2 Master Chef 2 aka MC² 12-inch skillet (frying pan)


In-Depth Product Review: All-Clad MC2 Masterchef 2 Master Chef 2 12-inch skillet (frying pan)




www.centurylife.org









Cookware Even Heating Rankings (Butane, Propane, Natural Gas, etc.)







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## coxhaus (Nov 10, 2022)

blokey said:


> D3 have a lot less aluminum than MC2, it's 2.7mm in total thickness while MC2 is over 3.5mm in total thickness, that's quite significant. It shows in weight too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, using your logic the LTD is better than the MC2 because it has more aluminum?

Where are you getting the thickness levels?


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## blokey (Nov 10, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> So, using your logic the LTD is better than the MC2 because it has more aluminum?


Yeah, and Demeyere proline should be the top end of this, downside they are heavier.


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## coxhaus (Nov 10, 2022)

blokey said:


> Yeah, and Demeyere proline should be the top end of this, downside they are heavier.


I can't find thickness of the different All Clad pans? This used to be somewhere on the net.

My copper core weighs more than my LTD which weighs more than a MC2. I don't own a MC2 just going by what was posted above. I own both an original LTD and a copper core. I do own an old MC saucepan which has thick sides but it is my only one.

I don't think weight is the only factor.


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## Justinv (Nov 10, 2022)

So I checked the thickness of my all-clad MC and MC2 pots that are handy. 

The MC line is definitely thicker. A 1qt MC saucier is 3.5mm and a 2qt MC sauce pan was 4mm total thickness. Comparable MC2 are 3.3mm.

MC2 thickness varies with the product from 3.3mm to 5mm total thickness.
Small MC2 pots and saucier pans are 3.3mm total thickness, a 12” MC2 skillet is 4mm, an 8qt pot is 4.5mm, and the monster 16qt MC2 is 5mm. Yes they made 16 and 20qt versions (13” diameter).


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## blokey (Nov 10, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I can't find thickness of the different All Clad pans? This used to be somewhere on the net.
> 
> My copper core weighs more than my LTD which weighs more than a MC2. I don't own a MC2 just going by what was posted above. I own both an original LTD and a copper core. I do own an old MC saucepan which has thick sides but it is my only one.
> 
> I don't think weight is the only factor.


Here's a general database, weight isn't a factor when different material and construction are involved, thinner copper pan is going to weigh more than thicker aluminum. But if similar construction and materials are involved I'd say thicker means better heat retention and distribution.





CenturyLife.Org Cookware Thickness Database: How thick is (insert brand, e.g., All-Clad) cookware? How thick is the disc base? Where was it made, is it induction compatible, and how long is the warranty?







www.centurylife.org


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## Jeff (Nov 10, 2022)

Justinv said:


> So I checked the thickness of my all-clad MC and MC2 pots that are handy.
> 
> The MC line is definitely thicker. A 1qt MC saucier is 3.5mm and a 2qt MC sauce pan was 4mm total thickness. Comparable MC2 are 3.3mm.
> 
> ...



Just to be clear … You are referring to the thickness of THE BOTTOM?


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## Justinv (Nov 10, 2022)

Jeff said:


> Just to be clear … You are referring to the thickness of THE BOTTOM?


I have no way to measure the bottom. That is the sides measured with a caliper. I always thought the bottoms snd sides are the same but that may be wrong.


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## Jeff (Nov 11, 2022)

Justinv said:


> I have no way to measure the bottom. That is the sides measured with a caliper. I always thought the bottoms snd sides are the same but that may be wrong.




Not if it is a disc bottom !


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## coxhaus (Nov 11, 2022)

blokey said:


> Here's a general database, weight isn't a factor when different material and construction are involved, thinner copper pan is going to weigh more than thicker aluminum. But if similar construction and materials are involved I'd say thicker means better heat retention and distribution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then I would assume the order to be LTD -> MC2 -> LTD2 as this is by weight. 
This is assuming all the stainless is the same thickness. It is possible stainless has changed thickness over the years with different models. The trend seems to be thinner over time as we move into the future. So, it is possible AC has lightened up the inside stainless. Thinner stainless will change the heating characteristics of the pan because stainless is not efficient as aluminum. How much would then be question, maybe not enough to notice. I don't know.

We need the weight of an 8-inch AC MC fry pan to know where it fits in the lineup.

I think my AC copper core 10-inch fry pan heats faster than my LTD 10-inch fry pan using my Viking gas range. I like using it better. I am interested in trying my new on the way 10-inch copper pan.

I also need to figure out my LTD 14-inch pan as it has a much larger heating area so heat distribution will be more of a concern. The only pan I have to compare to is my much larger copper pan. I have heard AC made a 14-inch TK model fry pan but I have never seen one.


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## coxhaus (Nov 11, 2022)

My copper pan is here already. That was fast. Time for fun. It is beautiful.


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## MowgFace (Nov 12, 2022)

I am a huge fan of the MC and MC2 lines. I have a 10” and 12” MC2 fry pans, 10” fry pan, 2qt and 4qt sauce pans in MC as well as a MC Wok I got from @parbaked that is well loved in my household.

The MC is 40g lighter than the MC2, at least in the 10” variant


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## coxhaus (Nov 12, 2022)

It sounds like MC is lighter than MC2 which would make the original LTD the heaviest. I thought MC would be heavier from what I read.

I noticed my new copper pan is not as thick as my old large one. I am hoping it will not matter in such a small fry pan but time will tell.


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## Jovidah (Nov 12, 2022)

You want to watch the thickness whenever you buy. For example Mauviel has different versions of their pans in different thicknesses.


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## coxhaus (Nov 12, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> You want to watch the thickness whenever you buy. For example Mauviel has different versions of their pans in different thicknesses.


Yea, the new copper Mauviel is a 2mm copper which is about equivalent to 4mm aluminum from what I read.


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## coxhaus (Nov 12, 2022)

I always boil water in a new pan. It seems pretty even on the bubbles even up the side.


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## nickw_ (Nov 12, 2022)

blokey said:


> All Clad sale event now
> 
> 
> https://homeandcooksales.com/



I picked up a 12quart D3 stockpot last sale. They hardly ever have them as factory seconds. I think they still have some of the sale if anyone wants one.


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## nickw_ (Nov 12, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I always boil water in a new pan. It seems pretty even on the bubbles even up the side.
> View attachment 208123


It still looks like there’s a cold spot in the center.


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## coxhaus (Nov 12, 2022)

nickw_ said:


> It still looks like there’s a cold spot in the center.


It's the glare and the camera. If you look hard in the dark center, you will see bubbles. Using the naked eye it is a better picture.


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## nickw_ (Nov 12, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> It's the glare and the camera. If you look hard in the dark center, you will see bubbles.



I see them, it just looks there is less than around the perimeter, where I assume the burners is.

Truth be told though, that’s arguably better for a fry pan.  I am a fan of thick 3mm tin lined copper, but my frying pans are thinner around 2 mm and perform the same as this.

With copper frying pans specifically, there’s really two schools of thought. Although most people only talk about thicker 3mm school of thought, 2mm can also work and are preferred by some.

2mm pans are designed to move on the burner, as they are lighter, and therefore easier and less work to toss food in and keep moving.

I do this when toasting nuts, or pan frying a veggies I want to stay crisp, etc. 2mm is an advantage here over 3mm imho. For things like shrimp and scallops I prefer 3mm.


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## coxhaus (Nov 12, 2022)

One advantage with copper lined with stainless steel is you can go hotter than tin as the tin will melt. I roasted bones in my large copper stainless steel lined at 460 degrees which I thought worked great. It might be a little iffy with tin lined.
I am still in debate about the long run on whether I want the hassle of copper. I plan not to baby these copper pans.

So, for shrimp and scallops you prefer 3mm? I know not about cooking with copper.


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## nickw_ (Nov 12, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> One advantage with copper lined with stainless steel is you can go hotter than tin as the tin will melt. I roasted bones in my large copper stainless steel lined at 460 degrees which I thought worked great. It might be a little iffy with tin lined.
> I am still in debate about the long run on whether I want the hassle of copper. I plan not to baby these copper pans.
> 
> So, for shrimp and scallops you prefer 3mm? I know not about cooking with copper.


I am a really big fan of copper and tin. Warning, I'm about to go off the deep end 

I think people overdo the concern about tin melting. The only way to melt tin is to use it "high and dry" which means high heat and dry (no water, or oil, or cooking fluid). If there is any sort of water/oil then it will keep the heat down over the whole pan (even if the burner is on max).

The melting point of pure tin is 450f, but again if there is anything in the pan to help absorb the heat, then there is really no concern of melting. But once tin gets "seasoned" it will darken (there are several things going on here, I'll post the full article below), but something called an intermetallic layer forms, which raises the melting point of tin to somewhere in the 780-1250f range. Someone could melt it, but once seasoned, they really have to try.








A little science about copper and tin


There’s some very interesting chemistry going on between a copper pan and its tin lining.




www.vintagefrenchcopper.com





For comparison, teflon (in teflon coated pants) starts to break down around 500f and is burnt by 650f. So tin really isn't any more of a concern for melting than teflon is burning. Once the tin is seasoned, it's even less of a concern. But accidents can and do happen (such as forgetting a pan on the stove), and the nice thing is with tin, it can be repaired. Have it "retined" and it's literally as good as new.

This is also why people often recommend putting a drop of cooking oil or butter in a copper pan as it preheats. The oil/butter will burn and give you an alarm (burning smell) before the tin melts. And tin doesn't need to be preheated like stainless steel to be non stick. It also comes up to temperature shockingly fast, so again, no need to preheat. Put it on the stove, drop in your oil/butter and your cooking/frying almost right away.

If someone overheats a copper and stainless pan, the stainless can and will delaminate. I'm not sure what temperature this happens at, but it does happen. But like burning a teflon pan, or melting tin, someone does need to muck up and forget about it on the burner. Unfortunately once delaminated it can't be repaired and needs to be replaced. I'm not sure if Falk or Maviel will warranty them from accidental overheating, as this type of delimitation is not really "normal use". Although I also wouldn't be surprised if either company did warranty them anyways, from what I hear both are first rate companies to deal with.

The only downside of tin is needing to treat it nice. Basically treat it like teflon. No metal utensils, don't overheat it, don't use an abrasive scrubby when cleaning. But if someone accidentally mucks it up, unlike a teflon pan, it can be fixed.

Now, after all this is said and done, my frying pans are silver lined not tin. Silver is even a better heat conductor than copper, and it's melting point is over 1200f even when brand new. I decided to splurge and get silver lined copper frying pans. I specifically did so I can try toast seeds nuts in my pan, as I do this often. I could use stainless steel for this, but for even toasting I wanted a pan with more even heating. If it wasn't for dry toasting seeds and nuts I would have stayed with tin lined pans.

Ok, that got long. If you're still following along, kudos to you. 

Lastly I'll address the 3mm thickness. Once you reach 3mm thick you get a very even heat across the bottom of the pan. This is great for things like delicate sauces, and sauting. Everything will brown near perfectly uniformly. Which is really nice for things like shrimp and scallops.

3mm is really the sweet spot, as even large pans will stay near have near perfect heat uniformity (like large12.5" sauté pan), but it's not so thick that it looses its responsiveness. By the time you're at 4mm the responsive does drop off, nor do you notice any additional evenness when cooking. Here is a good article about:








“What should I buy?”


Here’s my guidance on how to start and grow your batterie de cuisine en cuivre.




www.vintagefrenchcopper.com





As a whole, the VFC site is really helpful. About half of my copper is "no name", but is 3mm thick, so I still get all the benefits. About 80% of my copper is vintage. Much of it was out of France, and I had it redone there before it was sent over. Cost wise I paid less than All-Clad D3, and near D3 factory outlet sale prices. So it doesn't have to be expensive if you bargin hunt. All and all, I love it.

But... the final but... it will tarnish. If you want perfect looking copper, the upkeep is annoying. I prefer the mild dark patina anyways, with less shine, so I'm happy. I use copper brill every so often to keep in the medium dark copper range. Still looks clean and pretty, but not use it as a mirror shinny. I'm happy 

Okay, if you made it this far, I should buy you a beer or a bottle of wine!


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## coxhaus (Nov 12, 2022)

I would think silver lined would be a lot better than tin. It has a much higher melting point. I have my mom's old waffle iron and the cord wore out. I replaced it but I had to use silver solder as the temps were too high in the waffle iron. They don't make appliances like this anymore as it is at least 65 years old.

Nice article on copper pans and info. I don't know a lot about copper pans.

I will try shrimp in the future in both my pans and see if I can a difference. We have lots of shrimp in Texas during the season.

Have you tried roasting bones in your silver lined copper pans? It seems to work well for me. I really like the fond left in my copper pan.


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## Justinv (Nov 12, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I am still in debate about the long run on whether I want the hassle of copper. I plan not to baby these copper pans.


I do absolutely nothing to my copper pans. Just wash in soap and water. I like the patina. I think I oiled the cast iron handles a decade ago. All of mine have cast iron handles. I can’t comment on brass handles.


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## coxhaus (Nov 13, 2022)

I did another bubble shot to where I think you can see the bubbles are even. The camera does not do a good job with the glare as it hides some of the bubbles. And at the far side it compresses the bubbles to make them look greater. It is a depth of field thing with a short focus. Ok I added a shot from the other side.


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## nickw_ (Nov 16, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I would think silver lined would be a lot better than tin. It has a much higher melting point. I have my mom's old waffle iron and the cord wore out. I replaced it but I had to use silver solder as the temps were too high in the waffle iron. They don't make appliances like this anymore as it is at least 65 years old.
> 
> Nice article on copper pans and info. I don't know a lot about copper pans.
> 
> ...



Silver is better, it's just more costly, and difficult to find someone to do it. I only have silver on my frying pans. If you want to try copper with silver lining, I can highly recommend Jim from East Cast Tinning. He sells his new wares under the Duparquet brand, and has refurbished, plus scratch & dent items on the ECT site.

I currently don't have any large copper roasting trays (although I would like to get one), I typically use an aluminum sheet, or my large enamelled cast iron roasting trays when I need volume. I do have some small/medium copper gratins which could work, but not for anything larger than a turkey carcass. When I'm roasting beef bones for stalk, I usually need lots of room.


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## coxhaus (Dec 8, 2022)

I am having fun using my stainless-steel copper lined pans. I use them every day right now. I am learning as they heat faster than my other pans. Also, I don't have to make a choice stainless, carbon steel, or cast iron. I only choose size as I have the 2 copper pans. My big issue is not to grab the bronze handle as it is always hot. So, I turn the handle away from me to make it hard to grab. It is a hot pad only handle.

PS
I don't know if the handles are bronze or brass.


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## blokey (Dec 8, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I am having fun using my stainless-steel copper lined pans. I use them every day right now. I am learning as they heat faster than my other pans. Also, I don't have to make a choice stainless, carbon steel, or cast iron. I only choose size as I have the 2 copper pans. My big issue is not to grab the bronze handle as it is always hot. So, I turn the handle away from me to make it hard to grab. It is a hot pad only handle.


The Mauviel from cutlery and more? That’s great to hear.

BTW I really like the MC2, actually quite light for the thick aluminum pan.


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## mengwong (Dec 8, 2022)

6qt Cu-mai arrived today. Hot spotted right at the induction coil.


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## coxhaus (Dec 8, 2022)

I have the 5 quart and it does not do that on my gas range. Is that typical of induction? Never tried induction. I had to cook on an electric range for 13 years in my first house as we had no gas to the house.

Nice pan.


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## coxhaus (Dec 8, 2022)

blokey said:


> The Mauviel from cutlery and more? That’s great to hear.
> 
> BTW I really like the MC2, actually quite light for the thick aluminum pan.


Yes, my small 10-inch Mauviel copper pan and my old William Sonoma 16-inch copper pan which is really thick as you can see above where I posted a picture.


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## mengwong (Dec 8, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I have the 5 quart and it does not do that on my gas range. Is that typical of induction?


Afraid it is, on most cheap induction. With gas the hot air spreads naturally across the base. The $$$$$ induction stoves locate the coils differently to get around this problem. In about a year I hope to be able to report back with new pictures from a new stove.


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## nickw_ (Dec 9, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> My big issue is not to grab the bronze handle as it is always hot. So, I turn the handle away from me to make it hard to grab. It is a hot pad only handle.
> 
> PS
> I don't know if the handles are bronze or brass.



It’s probably brass. I’ve never seen a pan with a bronze handle.

As you mention, brass can get hot to grab. Cast iron is worse at conducting heat (not great like everyone thinks) and they tend to stay much cooler. 

For comparison, overall brass conducts heat about twice as well as iron.


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## blokey (Dec 9, 2022)

nickw_ said:


> It’s probably brass. I’ve never seen a pan with a bronze handle.
> 
> As you mention, brass can get hot to grab. Cast iron is worse at conducting heat (not great like everyone thinks) and they tend to stay much cooler.
> 
> For comparison, overall brass conducts heat about twice as well as iron.


Seems like a design flaw if they intend this pan for home market, Falker have some stainless steel handle that should handle that better


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## Pisau (Dec 10, 2022)

Induction hotspot depends a lot on the size of the coils, the size of the disc, and heating level. Other non-ferrous conductors don't matter much, no matter how fancy, be it copper or graphene (I have it on non-sticks). How low it can go also counts (preferably without turning on and off). Getting the larger diameter coils to run is another thing, but generally speaking:

Doughnut disc? Doughnut hotspot. 

Multi-ply clad? Doughnut hotspot because of the coils.

Cast iron? Same thing (Heat up slowly to avoid cracking, just ask me)

I am not bagging induction here. I love it. It's a fantastic heat source, but it's neither foolproof nor is the best solution for obstinates....


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## blokey (Dec 10, 2022)

mengwong said:


> 6qt Cu-mai arrived today. Hot spotted right at the induction coil.
> View attachment 212928


For your use I'd definetly look into Fissler Profi or Demeyere Atlantis, induction are not good at heat distribution, there's sadly little way to get around it. The pan would perform really good on gas tho.


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## rickbern (Dec 10, 2022)

blokey said:


> For your use I'd definetly look into Fissler Profi or Demeyere Atlantis, induction are not good at heat distribution, there's sadly little way to get around it. The pan would perform really good on gas tho.


Plus one. I've never understood the appeal of all-clad, particularly for saute pans. For my preferences fissler makes far superior saute pans and demeyere skillets are better. FWIW, I usually cook on gas but have induction in a vacation home.

YMMV

I also prefer saute pans deeper than all-clad's proportions. A-C is probably 3 to one height to diameter, fissler is more like two to one, it's MUCH better for braising and all matter of slow cooking. I'd have no problems making bolognese in a deeper saute pan, but I don't think the all clad proportion would work well.

I've never been too chuffed about the whole evaporation argument, my deeper saute pans seem to work out fine.


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## blokey (Dec 10, 2022)

I like cladded pan on gas tho, good enough and lighter, the All Clad MC2 is seriously good at tossing stuff around.
BTW there is another factory sale going on right now.


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## mengwong (Dec 10, 2022)

Thanks for the recs guys, I will look into it. The eventual hob will have bigger burners so all is not lost. Also one of the constraints has to do with WAF…


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## Dan- (Dec 12, 2022)

I had a full set (like ALL of it) of MC2, and they were great. I used to think they were heavy. I ended up giving them to my brother, who doesn’t understand what I gave him, when I upgraded to Demeyere Atlantis using gift cards when Marriott bought SPG (a VERY sad day). Anyway, the Demeyere made me realize that MC2 aren’t that heavy and also that if I didn’t have a long-term plan to move to induction, I would never have done it.

As for WAF, she’s still mad I gave away the MC2.


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## Jovidah (Dec 13, 2022)

Demeyere has lighter options too. You might easily forget because for some reason everyone always obsesses over the heaviest lines (like the proline), but they do have thinner & lighter options. Personally I actually have a mix, because the heavyweights are great when searing meat, but when I'm just sauteing some vegetables I prefer something a bit lighter that I can toss easier.


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## sumis (Dec 13, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> Demeyere has lighter options too. You might easily forget because for some reason everyone always obsesses over the heaviest lines (like the proline), but they do have thinner & lighter options. Personally I actually have a mix, because the heavyweights are great when searing meat, but when I'm just sauteing some vegetables I prefer something a bit lighter that I can toss easier.



exactly.

i have the choice of grabbing demeyere industry 5 or proline skillets. i only use the proline if i need to use two skillets. 
if cooking results differ, it's not because of the pan … if there's a problem searing meat in an industry, a proline wont help. a new stove might though. 

.


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## coxhaus (Dec 15, 2022)

rickbern said:


> I also prefer saute pans deeper than all-clad's proportions. A-C is probably 3 to one height to diameter, fissler is more like two to one, it's MUCH better for braising and all matter of slow cooking. I'd have no problems making bolognese in a deeper saute pan, but I don't think the all clad proportion would work well.
> 
> I've never been too chuffed about the whole evaporation argument, my deeper saute pans seem to work out fine.


I had no problem cooking bolognese in my 5-quart All Clad copper core saute pan. I cooked it for around 10 hours. I like a pan to heat quickly so I got rid of all my silver disc pans. And in my way of thinking the lower sided pan is better in the oven if roasting a chicken or something like that. The chicken skin gets crisper further down.
But I can see higher sides on something like dry beans, so I use my Viking PRO 3.4-quart saute pan for them as it has higher sides.

I think wider pans are more energy efficient, so I tend to cook more with wider pans. I am also thinking copper is even more energy efficient since I bought a couple of copper pans with stainless steel liners. They heat really fast, and you use lower burner settings.


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## rickbern (Dec 16, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I had no problem cooking bolognese in my 5-quart All Clad copper core saute pan. I cooked it for around 10 hours. I like a pan to heat quickly so I got rid of all my silver disc pans. And in my way of thinking the lower sided pan is better in the oven if roasting a chicken or something like that. The chicken skin gets crisper further down.
> But I can see higher sides on something like dry beans, so I use my Viking PRO 3.4-quart saute pan for them as it has higher sides.
> 
> I think wider pans are more energy efficient, so I tend to cook more with wider pans. I am also thinking copper is even more energy efficient since I bought a couple of copper pans with stainless steel liners. They heat really fast, and you use lower burner settings.
> View attachment 214325


I’m at the opposite end of the spectrum. I make this dish in a tall narrow pot made of clay. Having the pan bottom visible for long cooking would seem to me to be the very opposite of energy efficiency but what do I know?


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## Jovidah (Dec 16, 2022)

In general I looked into this somewhat recently and I found stovetop cooking to be a negligible part of my energy consumption. Cooking related it was really all in the ovens.
If you really wanted to cut down on energy consumption from stovetop cooking I'd simply lean towards shorter preparations; quick stir-fry is king in that regard.


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## Michi (Dec 16, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> In general I looked into this somewhat recently and I found stovetop cooking to be a negligible part of my energy consumption.


At least over here (subtropical climate), the #1 source of energy consumption is air conditioning. In a colder climate, that might be less of an issue, but then you end up heating more. (Heaters here run only for a weeks at most, and then only for a few hours in the early morning and evening.)

Next on the list is the hot water system. These things eat a lot of electricity.

In third place are refrigerators, freezers, washing machines, and clothes dryers. Refrigeration doesn't consume that much power, but makes up for it by being turned on permanently. And clothes driers are really energy hungry.

Everything else (cooking, lighting, electronics) is a drop in a bucket compared to the first three.


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## Jovidah (Dec 16, 2022)

Michi said:


> At least over here (subtropical climate), the #1 source of energy consumption is air conditioning. In a colder climate, that might be less of an issue, but then you end up heating more. (Heaters here run only for a weeks at most, and then only for a few hours in the early morning and evening.)
> 
> Next on the list is the hot water system. These things eat a lot of electricity.
> 
> ...


Yeah in general lines I agree. The hot water was a big surprise for me; my central heating and hot water all comes from the same fairly efficient and reasonably new gas heater.... but even then my jaw dropped at how much it consumes. If I handwash a bunch of dishes I'll consume as much or more gas doing the dishes than doing the actual cooking. I never particularly minded taking long showers because 'water is cheap'... but now that gas prices have gone up that's becoming a different story.
Similar with the ovens; I have one big 90 cm stove with a big oven in it and my jaw dropped at how much energy that thing sucks down. It gets to the point where 'low and slow' cooking methods that are traditionally recommended to save money by going for cheaper cuts might actually not save any money at all.

IIRC when it comes to seperate boiling water systems in the kitchen it largely depends on how much of it you use in a day; for occasional use it's definitly a waste, but if you regularly consume a lot of hot water it actually becomes rather negligible.

When it comes to AC / heating it all depends a lot on how well insulated your house is. I'm lucky enough to live in a fairly new appartment building and as a result - even as night time temperatures have gone down to -8 it's still 17-18 degrees inside _without using my heating at all. _In my experience it took me about a week for my body to adjust to 1c lower temperature to be perfectly comfortable again. Generally speaking, regardless of insulation, the cheapest way to be comfortably warm (apart from the no-brainers like putting on a sweater and socks) is to drink hot beverages. Tea is cheaper than gas!

Freezers and fridges are highly dependent on how new / energy efficient they are... but I've definitly started reconsidering simply using my 25 year old freezer 'until it breaks down' after I put a kwh-meter on it.
Personally I never saw the point in having a clothes drier.... had access to one for a few years in one of my student homes, never saw a reason to get one myself after I moved out.  

With electronics I'd say don't ignore it entirely. Yes, LED lights consume very little, but for example (non-mobile) computers and television setups can still consume a fair amount, especially when you haven't optimized efficiency settings. For example my GPU was sucking down a constant 60w even in idle due to a bug preventing it from going into a lower power state when having multiple monitors connected. And one of the cable providers here had a tv-box that had an idle usage of 230 kwh a year; that's more than an efficient modern refrigerator. But the best way to go abou tthis is to just systematically go through all your devices with a kwh-meter and see what they suck down in a few days.


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## Michi (Dec 16, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> But the best way to go abou tthis is to just systematically go through all your devices with a kwh-meter and see what they suck down in a few days.


I agree. I went through this exercise quite a few years ago, so I could start to get a handle on what consumes how much. I bought one of those energy consumption meters that allows you to piggy-back an appliance, and found a few things that drew a lot more current than I thought they would. For example, I used to own a Mac Pro (the cheese grater one from the late 2000s). It ate a cool 400 W permanently!

For hot water, we have a solar hot water system. It is passive, meaning there is no pump. For periods when we have extended bad weather, it includes a 2.5 kW heater, so we don't end up with cold showers when it rains. That system gets us 83% of our hot water from the sun. (Obviously, that is not an option in a cold climate.)

I installed a 6.6 kW PV system about ten years ago, and that has been making more energy than we use over a year, so we are a net exporter of electricity. (Again, we are fortunate with our climate.)

I've been trying hard to reduce our environmental impact in general. Lots of little things that add up. We separate recyclable trash; we don't use dishwashing liquid when all that was in contact with the board was a few carrots and celery sticks; we use as little dishwashing powder in the dishwasher as possible, and wash larger items by hand; we drive an electric car, take our own linen shopping bags to the supermarket, don't buy vegetables and fruit and reflexively put them into a plastic bag in the shop, use a SodaStream instead of endlessly throwing away more PU bottles. The list goes on…

With a little bit of thought, we can reduce our footprint by a fair bit without ever creating any inconvenience. It won't change the world. But it does help.


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## Ruso (Dec 16, 2022)

Michi said:


> don't buy vegetables and fruit and reflexively put them into a plastic bag in the shop


Where do you put them then, especially if you are on a weekly grocery run where a dozen+ of different produce can be bought.


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## Dan- (Dec 16, 2022)

So you really don’t need to put anything but fragile green things in a bag. Almost everything gets peeled or washed anyway.


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## Michi (Dec 16, 2022)

I bring my own linen reusable shopping bags. I avoid using the rolls of individual tear-off bags provided in the shop. Almost everything can go directly into the shopping basket without additional packaging and, from there, into my bags.

For large loads, the shop will put everything in cardboard boxes that, otherwise, they would throw away.


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## Ruso (Dec 16, 2022)

Almost everything can go to a basket or bag, but its unfeasible to cash out with everything lying around and not sorted into bundles. Sure, if its 1 apple, 1 pepper and one tomato it works, but if the count goes into 10s for multiple items then it becomes a problem.


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## Dan- (Dec 16, 2022)

If the counts are in the 10s, aren’t you buying that at wholesale or at least from Costco?

I like to put each clad and disc pan in its own bag


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## Ruso (Dec 16, 2022)

Dan- said:


> If the counts are in the 10s, aren’t you buying that at wholesale or at least from Costco?
> 
> I like to put each clad and disc pan in its own bag


No, I do not, just a regular grocery. We eat a lot of produce.
But this thread made me thinking, I think I can reduce my use of those plastic bags from a roll to almost a half.


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## coxhaus (Dec 17, 2022)

Yes, I was just thinking in terms of stove top cooking. I think a wider pan will transfer more heat from the stove burner to the contents of the pan before the heat rises past the pan.

A/C is our big expense in Texas 9 months out of a year for energy costs.

I did switch our water heater and dryer over to gas and I noticed a lower difference in our electric bill per month.


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## tcmx3 (Tuesday at 4:18 PM)

coxhaus said:


> Yes, I was just thinking in terms of stove top cooking. I think a wider pan will transfer more heat from the stove burner to the contents of the pan before the heat rises past the pan.
> 
> A/C is our big expense in Texas 9 months out of a year for energy costs.
> 
> I did switch our water heater and dryer over to gas and I noticed a lower difference in our electric bill per month.



it's been nice not having to hvac a 2500 sq ft modern Texas house. temps are a lot more stable in my >100 year old place and my bills are way lower in spite of rumors of MA being so expensive.


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