# Woods to Work with... The blackisted? and the best?



## CPD (Apr 8, 2014)

Ever walk into a grocery store and come out with some obscure ingredient just to see what you can do with it? or because you wondered what it's like to work with in the kitchen?
I do that all the time..... and I'm guilty of the same when it comes to grabbing a block of wood for a handle or a project if it catches my eye. Sometimes I find something and become a fan. Others.... it's future firewood. I've tested a bunch and have some loves and hates.

Dave posted a rant (well deserved) about the frustrations of Redwood for handles in his sub forum a few days ago and it got me thinking. Among all who make handles or sayas or whatever, from the one now and again makers to the pros, we've probably got a large pool of info about different materials. 

Didn't want to hijack his thread, but seemed like it might be a good idea to create a new one to see if we can't collectively build up a sticky worthy list of quick info on materials to have as a reference. Know any material can turn out a good result or a horrid one in any single case but speaking in broad strokes from past experiences....what do you love or hate to work with...... The Love it or stay far far away materials list...... Thoughts?

Case in point...

*Redwood*. run and don't look back. High Frustration. Sands erratically and unpredictably. Tricky to get good finish. Dust not a friend.

*African Blackwood.* Love, occasional hate. Great look. Great finish. Hard on tools....potentially brittle. Slow to work. Beware the weight when making handles

*Cocobolo*. Allergy sufferers run away fast. Hold your breath. Caution. Caution Caution. (But it does look great)

*Black and White Ebony*. Heartbreaker to heavenly. The look is awesome but brittle and breakable while being worked. All ebonies a potential cautionary tale for handles.

*Bubinga*. Thank you, I'll have another. 

*Ziricote*. a champ if you start with a good block.... not friendly if you have to mill down (drying cracks and checks are common)

Mammoth Tooth...horn....woods....etc etc..... 

Anybody with thoughts on the idea of this thread or interest in adding to it ...chime in.


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## scotchef38 (Apr 8, 2014)

I made a couple of Saya from Cypress pine,it was nice to work with and finished beautifully.Had a terrible reaction to it,was itchy for days and had to get prescription antihistamine.


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## CoqaVin (Apr 8, 2014)

scot what are the woods in mine?


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## mkriggen (Apr 8, 2014)

Amboyna Burl Baby! Beautiful colors and figure, works easy, and finishes beautifully?

Be well,
Mikey


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## apicius9 (Apr 8, 2014)

Good idea, thanks CPD!

*Redwood*. Don't see it quite as negatively but it may be easier in wa handles with mostly straight surfaces. But I agree with the difficult finishing.

*Black and white ebony.* 99% of the pieces I have seen had cracks. Can work but it's a PITA.

*Black hight grade ebony. *Used to get instrument grade ebony from instrument maker suppliers, well seasoned. Many handles developed cracks over time. Also makes me cough and sneeze like cocobolo does for others. Will not use it anymore.

*Snakewood*. PITA to work because it is so dense. Cracks easily, during working it or over time. 

*Palm wood. *Really more a bundle of fibers than real wood. Can look nice but is very brittle and breaks out easily. 

*Lignum vitae.* Oily stuff, smears and clogs all abrasives very easily, clearly not my favorite to work with. 

*Purple heart. *Yuck. Hate the color and it burns easily. 

*Walnut*. I just don't seem to have the talent to finish it in a way that it looks nice, but others make it shine (literally...), so it's me, not the wood. 

*Thuya burl*. Have a love-hate relationship with this. One of my favorite woods when the piece is good, smells good, too, but can be very brittle when unstabilized - and looses a lot of its charme with stabilizing. 

*Maple burl.* Can be beautiful, but also had pieces that were very 'spongy' after stabilizing, felt like they could break any moment. 

*Curly & quilted maple. *Easiest woods to work with, great to finish.

*Koa*. Still fascinated by the differences in colors and figuring this wood comes in. Fairly easy to work with. Always look forward to seeing the final outcome, still my favorite. 

Stefan


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## scotchef38 (Apr 9, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> scot what are the woods in mine?


American White Oak and PNG rosewood.Is it still holding up ok?


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## cadberry (Apr 9, 2014)

I don't have the vast experience as many members on this site do but here are some of my thoughts from the handles I've made:

*Koa* - Becoming my favorite wood, I have found it easy to work and finish and it can have the most amazing patterns.

*Amboyna Burl* - Another good one, though I've only worked with stabilized pieces for Wa and Western handles

*Thuya* - I have only made a very small paring knife handle with a stabilized piece and it seems very fragile but continues to smell nicely when wet and looks very beautiful

*Snakewood* - I took the advice of many and went very slowly while working it for some western handles and I avoided it checking during that, time will tell i suppose. I found while sanding it that Snakewood almost wanted to be polished and seemed to become so on its own. Very hard though and slow to work. 

*Ebony* - I rehandled a forgecraft that turned out alright and I had some trouble gluing it to the tang. Sanding was very slow, but it turn out well and feels very good in the hand. 

*Mesquite Burl* - I found this wood easy to work and it finishes fairly well. 

*Hackberry (Spalted)* - Even stabilized this wood was very lite and fragile and broke along the handle pin joint but glued back together. The pattern does look very nice. 

For future projects I intend to use more Koa and at some point some stabilized Redwood to see what all the fuss is about....it looks so pretty too, how bad can it be? 

-Anthony


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## Delbert Ealy (Apr 18, 2014)

This thread is interesting, and to me quite funny. 
I guess I have a different perspective, because I have worked with metals more and longer. 
It is true that some of the woods are very dense, like snakewood. 
For me most of my tooling is geared towards working with metals, an I start with the premise that a sharp tool is a safe tool. 
For most of the woods I like stabilized, and I must say that stabilized redwood is one of my favorites.
The Top of the list for me is maple, nice to work, and such variety from a single wood.
Ebony is on the bottom of the list for me at present.
Del


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## Burl Source (Apr 18, 2014)

If you want a super easy wood to work that you can finish fast and easy, just use straight grain maple.
All of the others are going to take extra work. When you see the exceptional handles like Michael Rader's there is a lot of extra work involved.
Like most crafts the more you put into it the better the results. One method does not work for everything.
On another forum Michael was answering questions about what is expected when testing for JS or MS. I asked about how he finishes his handles. This was his reply.


Michael Rader said:


> Ok, so, you don't actually have to finish your handle to the grade that I do to pass your tests, but I'll share a few tips on that.
> I was taught wood finishing by an ol' timer that worked for Benelli a long time ago and one of the most important things he stressed about finishing gunstocks was filling the grain. He really liked Teak Oil. I think we used SeaFin.
> 
> So, sand your handle down to 320-400 grit or so, saturate the handle with oil and let sit for about ten minutes while just keeping it wet so as much oil can soak in as possible. Then we would wet-sand so a slurry of sawdust fills the grains and pores. Kinda massage it in with your fingers too when it gets thicker. Let sit for 5 days or so in a warm room until that stuff is rock-hard. Sand back down to the wood again and do it again. Then sand it down to the wood yet again and this time, wipe off the slurry after wet-sanding and with a clean paper towel wipe on a clean coating of oil. Let dry. Repeat.
> ...


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## Dave Martell (Apr 18, 2014)

I am driven crazy by some woods and I call them bad names but I have to assume some responsibility in bad results because many other makers get good results from the same stuff. I do have my favorites though, maples being at the top of the list, just so easy to get great results.

Michael Rader is likely in the top 10 (or higher) of woodworkers in the knifemaking community, his results are spectacular. I'm just starting to be able to even understand what he's talking about in what he does, doing it myself is a whole other thing.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Apr 18, 2014)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned *Gidgee*. It's such a pleasure to work with. Unstabilized it has a great smell and finishes easily. Stabilized Gidgee can't offer same smell, but even easier to work with and has a beautiful grain. 

My personal favorites are: Gidgee, Amboyna, Maple and Cocobolo.


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## Burl Source (Apr 18, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned *Gidgee*. It's such a pleasure to work with. Unstabilized it has a great smell and finishes easily. Stabilized Gidgee can't offer same smell, but even easier to work with and has a beautiful grain.


That was probably because someone here said it is no good for kitchen knives. Didn't bother me because it sold fast to knife makers who either knew how to finish it or were willing to learn. Some people like yourself just got it right on their first try.


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## Burl Source (Apr 18, 2014)

When I read back on my previous posts now they appear a bit cynical. Sorry, I am kind of cranky the past couple days.
The ultimate responsibility in making sure that the end users know how to work with and finish different woods lies with the supplier.
Looking back I think I have fallen short in regards to that responsibility.
Through the coming weeks I will try to write a comprehensive guide to working with different woods.
What I write will be based on my personal experience and failures. Also I will talk to some of the very best knife makers for their input. Hopefully it will help to limit future disappointments for all of us.


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## ecchef (Apr 18, 2014)

Thank you Mark for raising the bar yet again!


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## RavenMad (Apr 18, 2014)

Burl Source said:


> When I read back on my previous posts now they appear a bit cynical. Sorry, I am kind of cranky the past couple days.
> The ultimate responsibility in making sure that the end users know how to work with and finish different woods lies with the supplier.
> Looking back I think I have fallen short in regards to that responsibility.
> Through the coming weeks I will try to write a comprehensive guide to working with different woods.
> What I write will be based on my personal experience and failures. Also I will talk to some of the very best knife makers for their input. Hopefully it will help to limit future disappointments for all of us.



...and that is why this community is such a great place to hang out. Mark, that's a wonderful gesture to your fellow KKF'ers and I for one appreciate you freely sharing your knowledge for the benefit of others. The thing that makes this place great is that you're not the only one - pretty much everyone here loves sharing their experiences and helping each other out. I've only been here a short time but I've enjoyed it immensely. I'm still just a grasshopper in this game but hopefully one day, I too can help others out with what I have learned. 

Peace.


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## gavination (Apr 18, 2014)

Thanks for reporting Michael's post Mark. I'm in no hurry so I'll have to give his method a fun try. Even more excited to get in the shop now!

I'd definitely like to hear people's opinions, tips, and tricks with gidgee too.


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## CPD (Apr 18, 2014)

Burl Source said:


> When I read back on my previous posts now they appear a bit cynical. Sorry, I am kind of cranky the past couple days.
> The ultimate responsibility in making sure that the end users know how to work with and finish different woods lies with the supplier....
> Through the coming weeks I will try to write a comprehensive guide to working with different woods.
> What I write will be based on my personal experience and failures. Also I will talk to some of the very best knife makers for their input. Hopefully it will help to limit future disappointments for all of us.



As someone who likes to build things, the only responsibility I could ever put on a supplier is that they sell a quality product. After that, for me personally, I feel like I own the responsibility to figure out how to use it, and use it well (or not). Tips are always welcome but the burden is ultimately on me as a craftsman to figure out how to get my desired result. At least, that's how I like to look at it. I could never comfortably blame anybody else for the results of my labor. 

That difference of opinion aside....I started this thread with a similar intent to what you've offered, Mark. When it comes to woodworking, I've learned the hard way through many different kinds of projects that different species can require vastly different approaches. Even if it's just shared opinions of what's loved or hated, and maybe the reasons why -- my hope was the pooled info would be more broadly useful. Maybe, eventually, something worthy of gathering into a single post people could come back to as reference. 

To the extent that you want to take the reins and craft something more specific .. if there's anything I can do to help that- from helping to put it together, editing, etc - please let me know. I will happily join in. (Feel free to send a PM if you like)

In my original post, I took a bit of lighthearted tone and my own examples were more my opinions and bias (on some woods) than functional tips. I like the idea of making this thread into something more detailed and functional. All of our opinions and preferences notwithstanding -- I think there are few bad woods...or few woods that can't be used in the context of this forum to make good handles or sayas etc. But, like anything else, the woods do have specific qualities - dense, heavy, gummy, brittle, light etc. Those traits on rare occasion may make something "bad for kitchen knives" (things like toxicity or allergy properties), but more often - I think it's a factor of just whether they're easy to work with, or hard, and knowing how to use them to get the best result. A dense brittle wood like ebony is not going to be easy to work with with the wrong tools, it's not going to be easy to get the right balance for a small paring knife... that doesn't mean a great result with ebony isn't achievable. Knowing some of the boundaries in advance I think will help people....as will tips about working it. The Michael Radar example on pore filling earlier in the post is a perfect example of that. It's an old school trick and it works great if you want to get a high grade finish on more porous woods. It's totally unnecessary on African Blackwood but it can take a piece of walnut to another level in finishing. 

I'm always impressed by both the amount of knowledge, and the willingness with which it's shared in this forum - both from the vendors, craftspeople and knife nuts alike.


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## mkriggen (Apr 19, 2014)

A further comment on grain filling. Michael Rader is absolutely correct, you can't get the best from most woods without filling the grain. Having said that, you don't have to go to the lengths Michael does to get very good to excellent results (vice the absolute perfection Michael achieves). I use Zinnsers 100% shellac sanding sealer cut with 50% denatured alcohol (this makes it very fast drying). After sanding with 120 grit, I apply a light to medium coat (depends on the wood) and let dry for 5 to 10 min. I may or may not wet sand depending on the wood. If its an open grain wood like monkey pod or has a nice 3D grain (curly maple, koa, desert ironwood) it gets wet sanded. Stabilized woods always get wet sanded. Other woods that have a lot of figure but not a lot of depth, like my favorite amboyna, may not get wet sanded. Be careful if you're wet sanding a piece that has two or more contrasting woods, as sanding slurry from one may not look the best stuck in the grain of the other. Once the piece is dry I sand it back down to a bare wood surface using 180 grit and repeat the process. I do this through a progression of 120, 180, 220, and 320 grit. I don't use the sanding sealer beyond 320 grit because the next grit I use is 600 and you're just not removing enough actual material at that point. Will this method get you the amazing results Mr. Rader gets? Of course not, but it will take your finishes way beyond what you'll get with sanding alone.

I hope this helps,

Be well,
Mikey


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## apicius9 (Apr 19, 2014)

Very helpful tips here, thanks everyone. The question IMHO often is, do I really want to have a perfect surface? In many cases, the stabilizing already takes a bit away of the wood characteristic, and sanding it to a perfect surface goes another step in that direction. Not saying this is wrong, just that, in sime cases, I like it if the surface is not 100% perfect, like in some more rustic lookin spalted woods.

Stefan


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## Sam Cro (Apr 19, 2014)

I have just Acquired some Very Old Sassafras wood and hope to make a few handles from it soon for a friend he & his wife want their New kitchen knives t all have the "Pretty Sassafras Handles" and I get all the leftovers from several lengths of the wood given to do the projects.


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## CPD (Apr 19, 2014)

mkriggen said:


> A further comment on grain filling. Michael Rader is absolutely correct, you can't get the best from most woods without filling the grain. Having said that, you don't have to go to the lengths Michael does to get very good to excellent results (vice the absolute perfection Michael achieves)...



Mikey, sure your post will be helpful for a lot of people. Big +1 from me on all of it. I absolutely agree. 

My method for most of my woodworking projects is very similar. Only a few subtle differences. For me, I'll initially sand to anywhere from 120 to 180 depending on the wood and grain pattern. I seal-coat with either a home-brew of dewaxed shellac in alcohol, Zinnsers or a water-based shellac called Ultraseal. Which one I use depends in part on the type/size/function of the project (relevant for furniture, not so much for handles), and the type of wood. Old school shellac is for pieces that I want to make the grain pop a lot and add depth, or where a little hint of gold to amber color is wanted. Zinnsers my backup option and the water-based product is my preference for most because it serves the dual purpose of raising the grain before filling it, and filling it once sanded. The same effect can be achieved by wiping the wood with a damp sponge prior to the shellac phase, but it's convenient to have it all in one. Once dry to touch, I'll wet sand with drops of mineral oil as lubricant to take it back down and fill the pores. From there, I'll work through the sanding progressions with the stopping point determined by whether there's a top coat to apply like waterlox (where I'll stop at max 320 before coating, then sand and polish once cured) or a penetrating oil/wax coat (sand most of the way to final with repetitive oil coats between and after the late very high grits). 

Stefan -- I agree. I, like you, like a bit of imperfection. The "wabi sabi" element, to me adds to the character of the work and makes a piece feel more alive. It's also a reminder of the hand craft involved. At the same time, I think there's a place for the different levels of finishing and the different techniques (which is, I think the same point you were making). 

For me it's like seeing a Kurouchi blade versus one's that's beautifully etched, and painstakingly crafted Damascus. Personally, I like and appreciate them both...


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