# Midrange JNAT testing cutting speed with razors (PIC HEAVY)



## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

Yes, I know... straight razors. BUT, this is my other and first hobby that involved sharpening. Anyhow, below is a test that I like to do to kind of rate/judge stones cutting ability. Hope you enjoy and if you have any questions please ask! 

I got these two subtle beauties in the mail some time ago and they've been seeing more action that I ever would have imagined.

I'm a huge proponent of quality suita as a midrange stone but these JNATS are giving them a run for their money.

I believe these stones are some type of hard Aoto and make Tsushima black nagura basically obsolete. Please if you have any information on the type of stone, let me know!

I tested these the same way as the sutia I did the other day but started with a shapton glass 500 then chosera 1k then 25 x strokes on slurry that was raised by a hard piece of chu nagura. You can see from the color of slurry on the chu nagura that it is completely base stone.

As you can see both stones absolutely wiped away every 1k scratch and put an edge that is very close to being shave ready. All that's needed after this is some very short time on a finisher and tomo nagura.

Pictures are from multiple angles with varying light. I'm trying to show everything possible on the edge and not hide anything that's happening. 


*Shapton glass 500:
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*Chosera 1k:
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*Stone 1:*​






















































*Stone 2:*​




































































*Chu Nagura with slurry (for color):*​


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

Needless to say, these stones WIPE scratches off knives after 1k, especially if pressure is used. When you use Atoma or other diamond generated slurry, these stones turn into monsters.


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## valgard (Apr 5, 2017)

Very nice write up. great pics.


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## Lazarus (Apr 5, 2017)

That's really cool, I'd love to see a full progression one day, your edge pictures are phenomenal.


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

Lazarus said:


> That's really cool, I'd love to see a full progression one day, your edge pictures are phenomenal.



Thanks guys!!

What kind of full progression are you interested in seeing?


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## foody518 (Apr 5, 2017)

Thanks for the write-up! Good looking stones.
How do you usually use Tsushima Black nagura with respect to razor honing?

And that's a really good looking piece of Chu :3


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Thanks for the write-up! Good looking stones.
> How do you usually use Tsushima Black nagura with respect to razor honing?
> 
> And that's a really good looking piece of Chu :3



Tsushima or a nice suita or soft tomae can be used to replace everything between 1k and finisher. It's very common in the razor honing community for people wanting an affordable midrange. Simply raising slurry and honing away!


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## foody518 (Apr 5, 2017)

brooksie967 said:


> Tsushima or a nice suita or soft tomae can be used to replace everything between 1k and finisher. It's very common in the razor honing community for people wanting an affordable midrange. Simply raising slurry and honing away!



Thanks! Do you do the same nagura progression on that pre-finisher as well? Or would like just Tomo nagura slurry work?


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Thanks! Do you do the same nagura progression on that pre-finisher as well? Or would like just Tomo nagura slurry work?



By nagura progression I'm guessing you're talking about the asano mikawa shiro nagura? Botan through koma? This stone or a nice suita basically negate the requirement to have them. I haven't used them in years!


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## foody518 (Apr 5, 2017)

I was probably thinking the Botan through koma that seems to be used for really fine finishers, yeah. In your estimation, something like Pre-finisher suita bridges the gap to the finest stone enough to just use Tomo slurry on the finest stone?


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

foody518 said:


> I was probably thinking the Botan through koma that seems to be used for really fine finishers, yeah. In your estimation, something like Pre-finisher suita bridges the gap to the finest stone enough to just use Tomo slurry on the finest stone?



In situations where you're using a very fast suita or midrange like this, absolutely yes. Plenty fine to use right before a Tomo on a finisher. 

If you're interested I'll hit a razor on one of these then a Tomo on a finisher and take an edge pic for ya and compare it to one done with mikawa nagura.


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## foody518 (Apr 5, 2017)

brooksie967 said:


> In situations where you're using a very fast suita or midrange like this, absolutely yes. Plenty fine to use right before a Tomo on a finisher.
> 
> If you're interested I'll hit a razor on one of these then a Tomo on a finisher and take an edge pic for ya and compare it to one done with mikawa nagura.



Can't say no to more photos


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## valgard (Apr 5, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Can't say no to more photos



+1


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

Alrighty!

For the purposes of this I'll use my Asano Botan bench stone, a very silky and fast Tenjyou nagura (not asano) and an Asano Koma nagura before moving to tomo on one of my best finishers. This is as good as it gets for a nagura progression for me as I sold most of my little white gems a while back. I honestly don't use them much at all. The Botan bench stone is very very interesting and slick as snot when used with slurry on knives and works very, very well after a chosera 1k. The finish it imparts is definitely scratchy but is moving towards the brighter side of mirror when it comes to Jnats. 

I'll use one of my other stones from this thread to then reset the razor to that level and take it to the same finisher with the same tomo nagura so you can see a comparison of the two edges side by side.


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2017)

This is an awesome write up Brooksie, but honestly my head is spinning just a little bit. I'm gonna read it a few more times. Great info here!


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> This is an awesome write up Brooksie, but honestly my head is spinning just a little bit. I'm gonna read it a few more times. Great info here!



Alright guys. Sorry for the time it's taken to do this. I'm just going through images now. Lots of scope shots and lots of stone pictures that need to get uploaded and then posted here.


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

So a few people have asked me if a midrange stone can really replace a progression of nagura. They also want to know if the shave is any different or if the final results are the same. Unfortunately I don't have all my mikawa nagura any more (i really don't use them ever) but I do have a set that includes this botan bench stone, a non-asano tenjyou and a speedy and fine koma. 

SO I reset the bevel on a chosera 1k, worked it with botan slurry raised by chu nagura (stupid hard), then went through tenjyou, koma, and a kiita nakayama maruka tomo on an asagi nakayama maruka. 

Then I went and reset on the chosera 1k, worked it for 25 strokes on a midrange and went right to the same tomo slurry on the same finisher!

This tomo is very very hard and takes a very long time to raise slurry. Even the small amount seen is enough to be very fast with finishing. 

Result??? The same. Same edge, same shave. Absolutely wonderful. 

Pictures here are really hard to get in focus. There's a balancing act that needs to be played with how the light hits the edge to see the most detail. Anyhow I think they do a good enough job at demonstrating each stage. I apologize for repeat pictures of edges if it happens but I want the story to be as telling as possible. 

The edge is a sum of all parts. The important thing we have to remember is that each part of our progression should have a purpose and a goal and as long as those line up, your shave will be fantastic!


*BOTAN*

































*TENJYOU on Maruka*












































*KOMA
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*
TOMO*




























































*Chosera 1k to Stone 1 RESET with Tomo only*
































*
Midrange to Tomo Finished Edge*


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## foody518 (Apr 5, 2017)

Awesome post! I know I'm going to keep coming back to these photos to understand and compare
Brooksie, you're the man :doublethumbsup:


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Awesome post! I know I'm going to keep coming back to these photos to understand and compare
> Brooksie, you're the man :doublethumbsup:



Thanks man. Honing razors is a completely different game than knives but when it comes to removing metal they are great tools to use and test for a stones ability. Most razors are above 60 hrc and some are even upward of 64/65 so seeing how quickly they cut and how slurry darkens with just a small bevel and portion of the spine in contact with the stone is kind of impressive. I still enjoy watching it happen and I've done over 700 razors at this point.


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## valgard (Apr 5, 2017)

Thanks this is very cool stuff


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## ashy2classy (Apr 6, 2017)

Wow, impressive thread. Lots of detailed info and pictures. I just got into wet shaving with a DE razor about 6 months ago. Can't see myself ever moving to a straight razor... :bigeek:


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## Badgertooth (Apr 7, 2017)

No, no, no Brooksie, those saeki look toxic. To be safe, send them to me and I'll dispose of them. Killer photos big guy. And I want a saeki


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## brooksie967 (Apr 7, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> No, no, no Brooksie, those saeki look toxic. To be safe, send them to me and I'll dispose of them. Killer photos big guy. And I want a saeki



You think that's what these might be??? I never even considered that. You may just be right Otto!

Actually, they might be black saeki! http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/black-saeki/


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## brooksie967 (Apr 7, 2017)

Maksim rates these as 1000 grit though. Mine are significantly finer.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 7, 2017)

Thanks Brooksie, Thanks for taking the time to make this most informative post. 

I have an Asano set of Bontan, Tenjo, Menjo and I have a chu nagura that I use with a:

Oohira Suita renge, hard and fine. white creamy with brilliant feedback and fast cutting

Ozuku asagi/kitta suita, very hard, even finer that Oohira. Lots of suita holes but very clean, fast. Wonderful edge for hard carbon steel knives.

As you know, the number of possible outcomes in this combination of rocks are staggering. I haven't messed with the Tenjo or Menjo. I like the Bontan on either Oohira or Ozuku.

Its fun discovering winning combinations but a little maddening too. You and Otto (Badgertooth and others) provide understandable posts on subject not easily learned. Big Thank You


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## Sharpchef (Apr 11, 2017)

Hey Brooks, can you provide pic`s with maybe Nakayama and DMT/Atoma Slurry....

Greets Sebastian.


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## brooksie967 (Apr 11, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> Hey Brooks, can you provide pic`s with maybe Nakayama and DMT/Atoma Slurry....
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



Sure! I'm sure you've seen them before. Are you on Facebook? I can send you pictures of all my stones and you can pick which one


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## Sharpchef (Apr 18, 2017)

brooksie967 said:


> Sure! I'm sure you've seen them before. Are you on Facebook? I can send you pictures of all my stones and you can pick which one



No no social media for me.....

To do a comparison here are some pics, first full Progression magnification at *400:
Shapton Pro 2k 100passes each side




Shapton Pro 5k 100 passes each side




Shapton Pro 8k 100 passes per side




Shapton Pro 8k 200 passes per side




Shapton 12k 100 passes per side




Shapton Pro 30k 100 passes per side.....





After this progression 100 passes on Lapping Film 0,3my... to refine it a bit...... 







The next step Nakayama Kiita on Tomo Slurry:





And now, to confuse you, remember how long i have to sharpen to achieve an edge like this...... hours.......

Back to Shapton 2k 







The Same Nakayama driven with Atoma Slurry....... again 100 passes





Done in about 5-10 minutes with nearly the same outcome.......


then took Diamond lapping Film 1my to make it shiny again 100 passes





followed by a light green Escher again 100 passes





followed by a well broken in Black Arkansas again 100 passes....





So in my opinion there is no need for a midrange Jnat....... Or a big progression.......

Greets Sebastian.


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## Lazarus (Apr 18, 2017)

Sebastian, why if I may ask, do you follow the diamond film with the escher and Arkansas?


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## Sharpchef (Apr 18, 2017)

Lazarus said:


> Sebastian, why if I may ask, do you follow the diamond film with the escher and Arkansas?



Just to go back to polished edge, to show the difference... No sence at all.....

Natural stones, no matter where they are from provide a better shave (in regards of straight razor shaving) and a more usable Edge in the kitchen too...

While they seem to be finer (especially Escher and good Arks (they produce the best edge in regards of edge retention while cutting ropes.... best surface, because they don`t work like other stones like pure ceramic, they provide an edge like they are finished (the stones, like a file, not like sanding paper.....).

Escher/Thuringian stones are the finest natural abbrasives, like about 1,5my to compare to really fine Jnats with about 2,5my..... (just the surface particles......).

And are better and mostly faster cutting (Jnats with slurry) then manmade in this very fine comparison.

greets Sebastian.


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## brooksie967 (Apr 18, 2017)

I'm not a fan of atoma slurry or edges from diamond slurry and I agree, you don't need one but I like using them and find it faster as well.


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## Krassi (Apr 18, 2017)

Awesome Pic's sharpchef! 
Yeah i am also amazed of those super fine jnats how they perform..
I got 2 very good Koma Nagura but i prefer Atoma slurry.. ON some stones its more fun to use a nagura.. well my opinion 

since its about midrange stones. i also got some weird Jnats that actually polish very hardcore and fast but still i am clueless how fine they are.. they tend to be softer.
seeya, daniel


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