# Why do top smiths use steels like VG10?



## Viggetorr (Sep 15, 2017)

As far as I understand, steels like VG10 are considered inferior to stainless steels like SG2 and carbon steels like aogami super or shirogami #2. Why do highly esteemed like Kato bother using these cheaper steels? Is it only to be able to make cheaper blades or am I missing something?


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## daveb (Sep 15, 2017)

Its more the cook and the recipe than the ingredients.


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## jklip13 (Sep 15, 2017)

Yeah most master bakers don't use fancy flour or butter, just regular good quality stuff and their hands do the rest


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## StonedEdge (Sep 15, 2017)

To be fair, properly handled VG10 isn't exactly cheap or bad for a stain resistant steel.


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## Chef Doom (Sep 15, 2017)

Although I have a VG10 gyuto that I use regularly, I tend to avoid it for future purchases >$200 as many makers have not experimented enough and/or do not have enough experience to make a blade worth the expense.

Like daveb hinted, it's not the steel that is inferior.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 15, 2017)

You're missing something ...


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## LucasFur (Sep 15, 2017)

I somewhat agree with Viggetor. 
ok so ingredients etc. got it - but if you use specialized flower as opposed to general purpose flower you should be able to make the cake a little more moist, or fluffy or what have you.

Also remember Hiroshi Kato has a VG10 line, though he is a master bladesmith 
often people around here talk about Kato referring to Kiyoshi Kato, and i dont think he has a VG10 line. 

I saw Shiraki had a special VG10 line, i guess that is great to see how good a VG10 knife could be. 
But also for the longest time Murry Carter, said white 1 was superior to all other steels. Now he is saying it may not be the case. So does the Baker, ingredients myth hold water? 

Im a R2 fan boy though.


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## labor of love (Sep 15, 2017)

Yeah I don't get it either. But I've never used a high end vg10 blade. Maybe vg10 is just meant to be super durable steel with inferior finishing edge and ok retention.


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## RDalman (Sep 15, 2017)

a "specialized" flour is usually one with just some added gluten to it. To some bakers that may be frowned upon, as it will just enable shortcuts or "cheats" sacrificing just a weee bit of the final bread quality. This could be applied to some carbon steels. I do get the love for some stainless pm steels also, those with really impressive edge retention and toughness.

I bet most good makers can make good with most steels. They likely feel more passionate about some though. This is true with the users as well. Especially the ones that like to sharpen and maintain their knives alot.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 15, 2017)

The bakery analogy is not quite on-pointe, 
not because its wrong 

but because common regional ingredients (eg, flour in the EU) 
is considered exotic in other parts of the world (US). 
And things like "good" butter are not at all similar to common butter.

The analogy is valid in the sense that bread is flour, salt, water (and maybe fat and sugar, depending)
And it is not secret (in the sense of obscure/truly exotic) ingredients like truffles (or whatever) 
that makes good bread.

To continue the analogy maybe controlling for these factors, 
a air-avquired yeast bread vs packet yeast bread is a good starting point.

One takes 5 days to properly make, and the other <1day...with same exact ingredients even
the product is all about the technique and handling.

One tastes best on the day you make it, 
the other 2-3 days later after its further matured.

This is sort of the same as using white steel
and thinking about the technique of heat treat/grind etc
really being the measure of the knife, 
not the steel

Honyaki vs San mai, or differential vs Standard heat treats, etc
All with the same cutting edge material

But vastly different potential for usable hardness
and labour/economics etc.


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## labor of love (Sep 15, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> The bakery analogy is not quite on-pointe,
> not because its wrong
> 
> but because common regional ingredients (eg, flour in the EU)
> ...



Yeah, for instance the other day at work I was getting chafed really bad in my groin area (hot kitchen work, it happens from time to time). So naturally I go track down the corn starch to ease the irritation only to find 3 unmarked containers and I'm not sure which was corn starch, reg flour an high gluten flour. Whatever I coated myself with between my legs sure wasn't corn starch. Anyway, in this particular application I don't think it mattered whether or not I used high gluten flour or reg flour as the irritation never subsided (that lazy AM crew never labels anything).


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## Matus (Sep 15, 2017)

VG-10 is a high alloy stainless steel that - as the composition directly implies - is going to be very sensitive to HT process. That means that it is mot going to be uncommon to see sub-par knives made out of it. The composition also implies that the steel vsn offer excellent edge holding, but it is not going to be psrticularly easy to sharpen. Well done VG-10 should be an excllent performer. Now whether it's properties are what one is after in a kitchen knife is a question of personal preferenced.


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 15, 2017)

VG10 is ****/chippy/cheap is probably the most common bull**** reiterated endlessly (mainly by neophytes) around here.

For example, folk who remember the Yoshikane VG10 suminagashi knives may recall that were pricier than their top-of-the-line clad carbon offerings, as well as their migaki/hammered SKD/SLD blades.

As has been mentioned, the skill of the smith and an individuals skill with both the knife and the sharpening of it >> steel type/hype (delete as applicable).

Up next: Santokus are **** - 240 gyuto minimum...


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 15, 2017)

On the spot first aid:O

Best VG10 I have used is the Tanaka. Like R2 & SRS15 both are easy to sharpen, with polishing stones you can get very sharp edges. They have good retention, what's not to like? And I am an old hard core carbon junkie.


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## Chef Doom (Sep 15, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> You're missing something ...


That may be true but I am okay with that. I prefer carbon over stainless generally.


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## WildBoar (Sep 15, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Anyway, in this particular application I don't think it mattered whether or not I used high gluten flour or reg flour as the irritation never subsided (that lazy AM crew never labels anything).


Did you leave them some unlabeled bread for the next morning?


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## StonedEdge (Sep 15, 2017)

Chef Doom said:


> That may be true but I am okay with that. I prefer carbon over stainless generally.


Same with me but there are some stainless and semi stainless knives out there that I love equally, some are VG10


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## HRC_64 (Sep 15, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Yeah, for instance the other day at work I was getting chafed really bad in my groin area (hot kitchen work, it happens from time to time). So naturally I go track down the corn starch to ease the irritation only to find 3 unmarked containers and I'm not sure which was corn starch, reg flour an high gluten flour. Whatever I coated myself with between my legs sure wasn't corn starch. Anyway, in this particular application I don't think it mattered whether or not I used high gluten flour or reg flour as the irritation never subsided (that lazy AM crew never labels anything).



The ol' louisiana sourdough...LOL


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## daveb (Sep 15, 2017)

Cheese bread


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## Nemo (Sep 15, 2017)

daveb said:


> Its more the cook and the recipe than the ingredients.


This. Well put.


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## OliverNuther (Sep 15, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Yeah, for instance the other day at work I was getting chafed really bad in my groin area (hot kitchen work, it happens from time to time). So naturally I go track down the corn starch to ease the irritation only to find 3 unmarked containers and I'm not sure which was corn starch, reg flour an high gluten flour. Whatever I coated myself with between my legs sure wasn't corn starch. Anyway, in this particular application I don't think it mattered whether or not I used high gluten flour or reg flour as the irritation never subsided (that lazy AM crew never labels anything).



I used self raising flour by mistake one day. I don't know whether it was the baking powder in it or what but it stung like a bastard and I assure you, nothing rose.


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## TheCaptain (Sep 15, 2017)

*snort* I don't care who you are that's funny!


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## OliverNuther (Sep 15, 2017)

LOL. I can laugh about it now but I definitely didn't see the funny side at the time. Ah, the joys of kitchen work when it's 40C outside and you're standing over a hotplate and a deep fryer all day.


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## TheCaptain (Sep 15, 2017)

Gold Bond? Only thing that kept me sane when I worked in the dish room in college. Travel size always in my backpack.

Industrial sized steam dishwasher in a small room and I was the sucker stacking clean plates and trays. Sucked. Couldn't wait to get promoted to the kitchen! &#128541;


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 15, 2017)

Had my share of ovens, woks, & steam kettles. In my later years switched to Head Gardemanger cool side of the kitchen. More time in front of a cutting board though.


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## panda (Sep 15, 2017)

What about tapioca powder? &#128518;


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 15, 2017)

Never mind the cornstarch. Ditch the tighty-whities and get a pair of ExOfficio. Zero chafing, even in hot, sweaty conditions. A bit pricey, but they will last for years. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001M0MMZ8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## daveb (Sep 15, 2017)

How many threads are in this thread?


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## Chef Doom (Sep 16, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Same with me but there are some stainless and semi stainless knives out there that I love equally, some are VG10


I noticed that many people will hunt down a knife maker or a certain steel but people forget about specialization. VG10 is great in the right hands. On average most people will produce average knives. VG10 got a bad rep because to many smiths produced medium quality to early.

People praise California wine now but once upon a time....


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## Chef Doom (Sep 16, 2017)

daveb said:


> How many threads are in this thread?


Not Enough! WE NEED MORE!


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## labor of love (Sep 16, 2017)

Well it's safe to say corn starch is the vg10 of chafing medication.


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## Taramonia (Sep 16, 2017)

Top chefs use Gold Bond.


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## fatboylim (Sep 16, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Gold Bond? Only thing that kept me sane when I worked in the dish room in college. Travel size always in my backpack.
> 
> Industrial sized steam dishwasher in a small room and I was the sucker stacking clean plates and trays. Sucked. Couldn't wait to get promoted to the kitchen! &#128541;


Oh, those "dish-pig" days... I swear they did it to teach newbies not to leave knives and glass in the sink...

I've never sweated so much.


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## fatboylim (Sep 16, 2017)

Chef Doom said:


> I noticed that many people will hunt down a knife maker or a certain steel but people forget about specialization. VG10 is great in the right hands. On average most people will produce average knives. VG10 got a bad rep because to many smiths produced medium quality to early.
> 
> People praise California wine now but once upon a time....


Let's keep a bit of context. People praise Calefornian wines in the value-for-money range and slight premium range [emoji14] 

Only very few make it to the super-premium wine grade club. 

It's no different for Australian and New Zealand wines...


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## cenc (Sep 16, 2017)

Yoshikane's mokume VG10 looks beautiful. Does anyone have experience using it or sharpening it?


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## Larrin (Sep 16, 2017)

Viggetorr said:


> As far as I understand, steels like VG10 are considered inferior to stainless steels like SG2 and carbon steels like aogami super or shirogami #2. Why do highly esteemed like Kato bother using these cheaper steels? Is it only to be able to make cheaper blades or am I missing something?


Steels aren't grouped by "good, better, best." Shirogami #2 isn't "superior" to VG-10; it has a different set of properties, but one isn't better than the other.


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## malexthekid (Sep 16, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Let's keep a bit of context. People praise Calefornian wines in the value-for-money range and slight premium range [emoji14]
> 
> Only very few make it to the super-premium wine grade club.
> 
> It's no different for Australian and New Zealand wines...


Don't you be lumping Australian wines with that swill!!!! [emoji1]


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## psfred (Sep 16, 2017)

All steels are some sort of compromise that results in a particular set of characteristics in the finished product, and how one perceives the end result is very highly personal. That means some makers can make very nice knives in any steel, but they may perform differently for different users.

VG-10 got a bad reputation, I think, due to Global making a very larger number of "high end consumer" knives that were very slightly over-hard and brittle, and that charatersitic of THEIR heat treatment and grind combined with knife skills (such as they were) acquired using low grade stainless knives resulted in serious edge chipping. Sloppy rock chopping is going to damage any thin, very hard edge, doesn't matter what the material is. I believe the issue has died down somewhat. 

Tojiro sells mountains of restaurant knives in Japan without much comment. Not pretty, thicker than most people who know knives want, but they hold up very nicely normal service. They do chip when abused -- I knocked a chunk out of the edge of my paring knife near the tip rotating it on the board while slicing orange peels last fall, purely my fault, not the steel -- any other high alloy hard, thin knife would have chipped the same way, I think.

I think VG-10 (and VG-1) may be too brittle to use as a single metal knife, and it's only available as far as I know as laminated sheet for grinding, so forged knives aren't a possibility (and may not be wise, eh?). Performs quite well for it's intended use in clad steel and is inexpensive as high alloy steels go.


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## Larrin (Sep 16, 2017)

psfred said:


> I think VG-10 (and VG-1) may be too brittle to use as a single metal knife, and it's only available as far as I know as laminated sheet for grinding, so forged knives aren't a possibility (and may not be wise, eh?). Performs quite well for it's intended use in clad steel and is inexpensive as high alloy steels go.


Opinions on VG-10 must have gotten pretty strange on this forum since I stopped paying attention. VG-10 is no more brittle than most of the other common stainless steels, and it is tougher than many of them. Spyderco has been making consumer pocket knives out of VG-10 for years. And VG-1 is tougher than just about anything outside of AEB-L.


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## LucasFur (Sep 16, 2017)

Fine fine fine. Vg10 is fantastic in the right makers hands. Who is a bad maker then? 
It reminds me of the white paper / blue paper debate. 
White has a higher potential then blue. 
White Honyaki vs blue Honyaki, same sharpening blue lasts longer. 
TF white vs TF blue ... blue lasts longer 
Carter white 1 vs kono blue 1 ... blue lasts longer 
Masakage white 2 vs blue 2 ... blue lasts longer. 
Don't tell me white has higher potential when it doesn't
You get your any maker - say special edition shiraki vg10 and put it against takamura R2, I don't think many will put their money on the shiraki for edge retention. 
There are different levels of steels like there are different levels of makers. But nobody says one maker is better then another and nobody says one steel is better then another. I'm here to say there are differences, and for me R2 > VG10 99% of the time.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Sep 16, 2017)

psfred said:


> ... VG-10 got a bad reputation, I think, due to Global making a very larger number of "high end consumer" knives that were very slightly over-hard and brittle, and that charatersitic of THEIR heat treatment and....



Don't forget the boat loads of chippy Shuns in VG-10.


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## TheCaptain (Sep 16, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> Don't forget the boat loads of chippy Shuns in VG-10.


But let's be honest with ourselves. Shuns are often the first "Japanese" style knives folks buy and may not use them properly after beating on softer srainless for years.

A Shun was my intro knife and I've had more chips on my watanabe.


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## labor of love (Sep 16, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> But let's be honest with ourselves. Shuns are often the first "Japanese" style knives folks buy and may not use them properly after beating on softer srainless for years.
> 
> A Shun was my intro knife and I've had more chips on my watanabe.



+1 shuns feel like they were made to be pretty durable and chip resistant to me. It's like sharpening hard plastic. That's a case of user error IMO.


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## Larrin (Sep 16, 2017)

LucasFur said:


> Fine fine fine. Vg10 is fantastic in the right makers hands. Who is a bad maker then?
> It reminds me of the white paper / blue paper debate.
> White has a higher potential then blue.
> White Honyaki vs blue Honyaki, same sharpening blue lasts longer.
> ...


Why is edge retention the only property that matters?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 16, 2017)

psfred said:


> .
> 
> I think VG-10 (and VG-1) may be too brittle to use as a single metal knife, and it's only available as far as I know as laminated sheet for grinding, so forged knives aren't a possibility (and may not be wise, eh?). Performs quite well for it's intended use in clad steel and is inexpensive as high alloy steels go.



The Kagayaki monosteel VG-1 and VG-10 knives sold by JCK tend to disprove your assumption rather thoroughly.


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## panda (Sep 16, 2017)

when did global use vg10? arent they all chromova18?


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## daveb (Sep 16, 2017)

Saw that. Assumed error, meant Shun.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 16, 2017)

panda said:


> when did global use vg10? arent they all chromova18?



I always found this interesting. http://globalknives.uk/about/, states that the 18 is the % of chromium, but this is disputed by z-kives. Who on earth would invent a name with random numbers? Even crappy stainless is well known by, eg 18/8 or 18/10, for its 18% chromium.>http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=91



> CROMOVA 18(Yoshikin) - Several very trustworthy sources from knife industry confirm the same, Cromova 18 is rebranded or renamed Aichi AUS-6M steel. There is another theory as well, that Cromova 18 is another steel from the same maker, specifically Aichi AUS-118 steel, referring to 18 as Chromium percentage, which matches AUS-118 Cr amount, however Global's main website has no mention of 18% Cr in their knives, neither do US dealers, last I found, mentioning 18% was only UK dealer. On top of that, heat treating ASU-118 to 56-58HRC is a waste of potential and money too, it is more expensive than AUS6M, so why bother with expensive steel and then make it underperform?



Has anyone ever scienfitifically tested a global knife? Or maybe destructively tested it and re-heat-treated it? is this the biggest piece of mystery meat in the knife world?

{sorry not to hijack the OP, but it sort of ties into how alloy's get certain reputations}


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## StonedEdge (Sep 16, 2017)

How does Ginsanko or G3 compare with VG10


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## labor of love (Sep 16, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> How does Ginsanko or G3 compare with VG10



Generally speaking ginsanko gets sharper and sharpens easier. I've never used this fancy pants vg10 stuff only the cheapo underwhelming vg10, but even inexpensive ginsanko is really nice.
I think of ginsanko as the stainless steel of choice for carbon lovers.


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## K813zra (Sep 16, 2017)

LucasFur said:


> Fine fine fine. Vg10 is fantastic in the right makers hands. Who is a bad maker then?
> It reminds me of the white paper / blue paper debate.
> White has a higher potential then blue.
> White Honyaki vs blue Honyaki, same sharpening blue lasts longer.
> ...



That is fine if edge retention is what you are looking for. I prefer ease of sharpening over edge retention and for me that means lower wear resistance. Particularly because I prefer using naturals over synthetics.


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## JBroida (Sep 16, 2017)

Larrin said:


> Steels aren't grouped by "good, better, best." Shirogami #2 isn't "superior" to VG-10; it has a different set of properties, but one isn't better than the other.



100% agree


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## panda (Sep 16, 2017)

100% disagree


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## Larrin (Sep 16, 2017)

panda said:


> 100% disagree


Ok Devils Advocate.


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## NotThinEnough (Sep 16, 2017)

psfred said:


> All steels are some sort of compromise that results in a particular set of characteristics in the finished product, and how one perceives the end result is very highly personal. That means some makers can make very nice knives in any steel, but they may perform differently for different users.
> 
> VG-10 got a bad reputation, I think, due to Global making a very larger number of "high end consumer" knives that were very slightly over-hard and brittle, and that charatersitic of THEIR heat treatment and grind combined with knife skills (such as they were) acquired using low grade stainless knives resulted in serious edge chipping. Sloppy rock chopping is going to damage any thin, very hard edge, doesn't matter what the material is. I believe the issue has died down somewhat.
> 
> ...



There are many VG-10 Zen-ko single bevels that have been made, as well as VG-10 Honyakis. so they are available unlaminated. Even ZDP-189 zen-ko blades have been made so why the hell not VG-10


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## NotThinEnough (Sep 16, 2017)

instead of thinking about the steels, we might have to think about this from the makers' perspective if we want to discuss why 'inferior' steels like VG-10 and AUS-10 are still being used by great makers. Maybe its easier to forge, grind and work with. Maybe they dont have previous relationships with suppliers of PM steels. Maybe this late in to the makers' career they do not want to make a big change into their knives and use something they don't know much about. VG-10 and AUS-10 and other stainless steels have been very popular back when the current 'master smiths' were learning their trade. PM steels are nice for people who use knives for all their great traits, but think about from the perspectives of makers grind 100s them and polish 100s them everyday.


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## Nemo (Sep 16, 2017)

Are "VG10 honyakis" just VG10 monosteel or are they actually differentially hardened?


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## HRC_64 (Sep 16, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Are "VG10 honyakis" just VG10 monosteel or are they actually differentially hardened?



"Inox honyaki" blades I always presumed to be a signal for "true" cryo-hardened, 
for alloys that greatly benefit from it (AEB-L etc)

otherwise the exhorbitant cost is somewhat baffling.

differential hardening of stainless came up in other threads
& seemed to be a technical 'no' (in most-- if not all-- possible cases).


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## Nemo (Sep 16, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> "Inox honyaki" blades I always presumed to be a signal for "true" cryo-hardened,
> for alloys that greatly benefit from it (AEB-L etc)
> 
> otherwise the exhorbitant cost is somewhat baffling.
> ...



Interesting thought about the cryo HT and I guess this is possible. I'm intersted, is this a guess on your part or are you in posession of some evidence or knowledge to this effect? I'm not trying to be a d**k, I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

To my mind, if it's not differentially hardened, honyaki is being used as a marketing term rather than a realistic description of the blade.

My (admittedly fairly basic) understanding is that that pretty much any steel over about 0.8% C can benefit from cryo, otherwise the Mf temp (temp that you need to reach to finish matensitising the steel) is below room temp and you end up with soft retained austentite within your martensite.

The consensus of those with much more metallurgical knowledge than I does seem to be that the hardenability of highly alloyed steels (including stainless steels) makes differential hardening of those steels technically very difficult if not impossible.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Sep 16, 2017)

NotThinEnough said:


> instead of thinking about the steels, we might have to think about this from the makers' perspective....



I can't offer any perspective from J-Knife smiths, but I think this is key and often overlooked in our discussions. I was at a panel discussion of custom (woodworking) plane makers. It, like so many of our knife discussions, circled around to cutting blade steel. When ask what they used and why, the consistent answer to why was, "because it's the only steel I can heat treat and control the quality of". (BTW- This group all used O1. They're tool makers, not smiths.) There was only one different answer and it was, "I work with the best heat treat guy in town and use what he specializes in." (A2 in this case.) While I'm not an expert in J-Knives, I really think the key ingredient, if you can say there is a single key, is the care and quality control of the forging and heat treatment and not the raw steel. It seems too many of these discussions lose sight of that.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Interesting thought about the cryo HT... I'm genuinely interested in the answer.



My presumption, and its an honest presumption, is really here for discussion.

In making this presumption, my thinking was to rule out (for argument's sake) some type of intentional deceit for a second. And think about why somebody might coin a term like "Inox Honyaki".

The problem with Inox Honyaki as a marketing gimmick term is several fold. One is it presumes the smith is acting in bad faith. And two, it assumes the customer doesn't understand Inox doesn't differentially harden anyway. Both of those assumptions seem to be very aggressive ex-ante behavioural assumptions about the seller/customer.

On the other-hand, we have some data to make sense of. 1) a blade that seems to outperform ; 2) an inexplicable high price for a stamped steel knife ; 3) a large, costly, technically challenging hardening process..

It has the added benefit of making sense of the term 'inox honyaki'. The benefit of this explanation (3) is several fold: explain point (1) and justify (2).

Its a way to communicate a better-hardened mono-steel blade; one that may not be cheap but also may not be easily replicated by other means. It has some savvy signalling of terms without being intentionally-deceitful to the customer or revealing to much to the public/competitors (about cryo-super-awesome--etc). 

In other words, it seems to make 'sense' of alot of things. 

That being said, this is/was just a thought exercise. 






[edited for clarity]


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## Nemo (Sep 17, 2017)

I see where you are coming from and it's an interesting question. Does anyone know one way or the other?


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 17, 2017)

This thread is well on its way to a grand slam

VG10 is ****
Shuns are "chippy"
Steel hype fanboys who probably have zero experience of metallurgy, practical or otherwise.
People who actually know about these things trying to inject reason.
Honyaki v Monosteel
Off-topic randomness

Just like the old forums, and so much better than "Kato Alert" "Shig Alert" "Look at my Kato(s) and/or Shig(s)!"


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 17, 2017)

Other monosteel/zen-ko VG10s = Hattori KF (actually born out of the forums!), Suien even made a cleaver out of the stuff.


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## JBroida (Sep 17, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> "Inox honyaki" blades I always presumed to be a signal for "true" cryo-hardened,
> for alloys that greatly benefit from it (AEB-L etc)
> 
> otherwise the exhorbitant cost is somewhat baffling.
> ...



I think you are assuming far too much... some things are just marketing terms that sound nice. That does not take away from the performance of that series (i really like how they perform), but to assume its something more than it is because of marketing and a good name would be a mistake. And what does cryo hardening have to do with honyaki in general?

To address some other assumptions, you seem to think that the blacksmith has something to do with the naming and marketing of the knife. That too is a mistake. In sakai, very rarely does the craftsman have any interaction with anything resembling selling a knife to an end user (i can think of a few exceptions, but they are exceptions rather than the norm).

You also assume that just because a blade is stamped, it will automatically be less expensive. While the stamping does reduce some of the workload of shaping the knife, you would be surprised with the amount of labor that goes into grinding, heat treating, polishing, sharpening, etc. Labor is the highest factor in knife pricing by a long shot. Labor overshadows raw materials by a longshot.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2017)

JBroida said:


> And what does cryo hardening have to do with honyaki in general



***insert caveats about this being a thought experiment***

Cryo has everything to do with the INOX
And nothing to do with the Honyaki...

but we were trying to figure out, on what planet 
this phrase (INOX Honyaki) was not already
one of inherent self-contradiction


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2017)

> Cryogenic Treating: To get the most from AEB-L you must cryo. Cool to -95 °F. No soak is required.



That's why the leap from IH to AEBL to Cryo is a true* presumption
and not a baseless assumption.

*(literal)


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## Chef Doom (Sep 17, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Don't you be lumping Australian wines with that swill!!!! [emoji1]


Darn straight!


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## Chef Doom (Sep 17, 2017)

panda disagrees because he got a bad knife from his favorite craftsman and in order to protect his ego blamed the steel instead of the smith


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## panda (Sep 17, 2017)

lol!


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## Ruso (Sep 17, 2017)

Out of curiosity in which aspect VG10 is superior to R2?
Wear resistance
Toughness
Stain Resistance
Fine graininess/keener edege
More stable Edge
Simple HT
Price
???


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2017)

Vg10 sounds like beater steel to me. Which is totally fine-i have a stainless knife in my kit that gets sharp enough, keeps a mediocre edge long enough, pretty chip resistant, and stain resistant. I appreciate the benefits of a knife with these sorts characteristics. But it's great only as a beater. I would not want to pay north of $200 for a knife with these qualities but also understand there are others that do. I think all the heat treat wizardry that has been alluded to in this thread should be met with skepticism. It's vg10.


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## K813zra (Sep 17, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Vg10 sounds like beater steel to me. Which is totally fine-i have a stainless knife in my kit that gets sharp enough, keeps a mediocre edge long enough, pretty chip resistant, and stain resistant. I appreciate the benefits of a knife with these sorts characteristics. But it's great only as a beater. I would not want to pay north of $200 for a knife with these qualities but also understand there are others that do. I think all the heat treat wizardry that has been alluded to in this thread should be met with skepticism. It's vg10.



One mans beater is another mans daily driver. To me a beater should be soft, obtuse and mother in-law proof and none of my J-knives fit that role, regardless of steel. Chocolate blocks and chicken wings seem like they would cause some massive chipping.


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2017)

Beater=daily driver. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/30087-beater-most-used-knife?highlight=Beater


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## K813zra (Sep 17, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Beater=daily driver. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/30087-beater-most-used-knife?highlight=Beater



Hum, that is not how we used the term when I was growing up. Beater was always something you use in place of a normal object when you did not want to chance damaging it. 

So what do you call the knife you use as a substitute when you do things that your daily driver can't handle?


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## panda (Sep 17, 2017)

That's the 'don't give a sh*t' knife which is what vg10 is &#128518;


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## K813zra (Sep 17, 2017)

panda said:


> That's the 'don't give a sh*t' knife which is what vg10 is &#128518;



Lol, okay. I have a few of those knives. A stainless Vic and a carbon sab.


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## malexthekid (Sep 17, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Vg10 sounds like beater steel to me. Which is totally fine-i have a stainless knife in my kit that gets sharp enough, keeps a mediocre edge long enough, pretty chip resistant, and stain resistant. I appreciate the benefits of a knife with these sorts characteristics. But it's great only as a beater. I would not want to pay north of $200 for a knife with these qualities but also understand there are others that do. I think all the heat treat wizardry that has been alluded to in this thread should be met with skepticism. It's vg10.


But why? Those same qualities could be attributed to several carbons (ignoring the stain resistant parts) or many other SS including pm... just that VG-10 is probably a cheaper material than PM. But as we know material is only a small cost of the knife.

It all comes down to some mass produced knives that used the wrong experience. In my experience R2 is more prone to chipping than VG10... But it is also taken to a higher hrc. Therefore more brittle.. It is just a complex equation depending on what you want in any given knife.


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## labor of love (Sep 18, 2017)

Well I'm speaking about my personal feelings here. If a knive's greatest attributes are that it's stain resistant, extreme toughness and chip resistant then I'm going to take advantage of those traits and beat the hell outta it. So I don't think this is the sorta steel I'd want to spend a lot of money on.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 18, 2017)

Not an expert but do know that heat treatment for stainless steel was greatly improved in the 1950's. It involves high heat, freezing, then a lower heat. For stamped stainless esp. higher end knives the recipe for HT is good. To me cryo is the freezing part advertised to make it seem special.


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## fatboylim (Sep 18, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Well I'm speaking about my personal feelings here. If a knive's greatest attributes are that it's stain resistant, extreme toughness and chip resistant then I'm going to take advantage of those traits and beat the hell outta it. So I don't think this is the sorta steel I'd want to spend a lot of money on.


+1

This also why most chefs will only take their cheaper, tougher knives to work and limit their spend to $200 (or £200 in the UK)

if you are a top chef doing less prep and line work, then the higher end knives are used as they get beaten up less.

Horses for courses.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 18, 2017)

I had beater knives at work and cleavers. But for massive amounts of prep I used quality thin edged blades. When they wore down would buy another one.


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