# Why aren't Japanese knives popular within female buyers as end-customer?



## japana (Dec 1, 2017)

I always observe men buying knives. The only exception are women / wives buying knives as a gift for their husbands. What do you think may be the reason?


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## TheCaptain (Dec 1, 2017)

(raises one eyebrow)


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## TheCaptain (Dec 1, 2017)

Ok back to being serious. Just like guns seem to attract more men than women, I think the same in general holds true for knives. In my little circle of friends I have several (guys) who collect guns, and exactly zero women who do so.

Accuse me of being sexist, but nature to some extent hardwired each sex to full fill a specific purpose (men = hunters, protectors, etc), (women = child rearers, gatherers, etc). Not to say we are predestined by nature to fill a specific role, but it has to in some way play into what we are attracted to in terms of a hobby or what we find enjoyable.

NOW...I think that will slowly change as more women do the end decisions and pass along the interest in the shiny sharp things to their friends. I've had two family members and three friends ask for suggestions.

For now though it's lots of fun when someone who was unaware of my obsession, finds out...they really don't know how to process it.


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## K813zra (Dec 1, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Ok back to being serious. Just like guns seem to attract more men than women, I think the same in general holds true for knives. In my little circle of friends I have several (guys) who collect guns, and exactly zero women who do so.
> 
> Accuse me of being sexist, but nature to some extent hardwired each sex to full fill a specific purpose (men = hunters, protectors, etc), (women = child rearers, gatherers, etc). Not to say we are predestined by nature to fill a specific role, but it has to in some way play into what we are attracted to in terms of a hobby or what we find enjoyable.
> 
> ...



If we look at it that way...Almost all of my friends and family have one thing in common when it comes to the home kitchen and that is that the wife cooks. With my family this is true across four generations. I am the exception as is my uncle who is not married and is a pro cook to begin with. So, in most cases it is the woman in these situations who buys and uses the knives, just not the kind we like around here. 

That said, I get your point but I find it odd that a domain such as home cooking that has commonly been controlled by mom or grandma yields so few female enthusiast. My paternal grandfather probably could not have found a knife in the kitchen...let alone use it.


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## HRC_64 (Dec 1, 2017)

Everyone seems pursue impractical expenditures 
in the guise of practical "investments".

its just human nature.


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## nevrknow (Dec 1, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> (raises one eyebrow)



Made me smile.


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## GLE1952 (Dec 2, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Ok back to being serious. Just like guns seem to attract more men than women, I think the same in general holds true for knives. In my little circle of friends I have several (guys) who collect guns, and exactly zero women who do so.
> 
> Accuse me of being sexist, but nature to some extent hardwired each sex to full fill a specific purpose (men = hunters, protectors, etc), (women = child rearers, gatherers, etc). Not to say we are predestined by nature to fill a specific role, but it has to in some way play into what we are attracted to in terms of a hobby or what we find enjoyable.
> 
> ...



Agreed altho maybe conditioned as much as hard wired. 
Most men: "I have a couple pair of shoes, why in hell would I need more"
Most women: "how many knives do I need to simply prepare a meal"
Obviously there are exceptions.


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## daveb (Dec 2, 2017)

Women cook to eat. Men cook for womens.


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## K813zra (Dec 2, 2017)

daveb said:


> Women cook to eat. Men cook for womens.



I cook out of necessity, to me it is not a hobby. Sharpening is the hobby and using knives is just part of that. Cooking just so happens to be an activity that allows me to use a knife and then sharpen it. However, as I do cook for my wife I guess that still makes you correct.


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## brianh (Dec 2, 2017)

I find with my generation (in my 40s), many men cook as much if not more than their wives. My wife can work the oven and microwave with moderate success. In my parents generation, the women cooked begrudgingly with a bucket of maybe 10 recipes on constant rotation. Just my experience. 

Ive gotten a bunch of men around my age into jknives, and a women or three. Not so much maintaining them, but at least the appreciation. 

It's cool to cook now and lots of unusual ingredients are readily available, with a return to less processed, real foods. Not like the convenience foods I grew up on. Uncle Bens, Idaho instant taters, canned green beans. I cringe at the memories of canned ham and even worse, canned turkey.

Men, we especially like our toys (er, tools).


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## K813zra (Dec 2, 2017)

brianh said:


> I find with my generation (in my 40s), many men cook as much if not more than their wives. My wife can work the oven and microwave with moderate success. In my parents generation, the women cooked begrudgingly with a bucket of maybe 10 recipes on constant rotation. Just my experience.
> 
> Ive gotten a bunch of men around my age into jknives, and a women or three. Not so much maintaining them, but at least the appreciation.
> 
> ...



I have never had canned ham or turkey or anything like that. Grandma and mom were always into making most stuff from scratch and grandpa was big into gardening so while we did have canned stuff it is stuff that we canned ourselves and still do to this day. 

That aside, I find that a lot of people in my generation can not tie their own shoes without help...Seems a new dependency clinic pops up every few months...Could just be my area. 

As for ingredients, that is true as there are lots of exotic things even at the local wal-mart that my parents and grandparents have never heard of.


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## Andreu (Dec 2, 2017)

This is a touchy subject as one can misinterpret others opinion and can be labeled as sexit but here's my thought on this.

My wife - "Why do you have so many knives and why are they so expensive? They are just a piece of metal. You can't use them all at once."
Me - "Why do you have so many purses (a walk-in closet full of them if I may add) and they are expensive as well? They are just canvases, nylons, and leathers. You can't possibly use them all at once."

I agree that human beings may have been conditioned that way. A man sees a knife and to him it is a tool of trade while a woman sees a purse and to her it is about statement and fashion. 

Disclaimer: I am not sexist. This is my own experience with my wife. &#128512;


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## Andreu (Dec 2, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> (raises one eyebrow)



I knew you would be raising an eyebrow on this one. Lol


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## brianh (Dec 2, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I have never had canned ham or turkey or anything like that.



Be glad. When I was a kid, a lot of parents succumbed to convenience foods.


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## K813zra (Dec 2, 2017)

brianh said:


> Be glad. When I was a kid, a lot of parents succumbed to convenience foods.



A lot of my cousins grew up that way. I guess I was lucky. 

As an aside, it is something interesting to share with my wife, who grew up in the city. Well, there are many other changes beings she is from Europe but the move to the farm was probably the biggest. Learning to garden, raise our own meat, eggs, make cheese, catch fish, canning etc. It has been a learning experience for her and one that she seems to enjoy. Well, maybe not so much hunting season. I miss the fresh seafood from over there though.


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## JaVa (Dec 2, 2017)

Very interesting thread and very good points all a round. Surprising to see so much general agreement on such a touchy subject. Count me in with what's been said already. Definitely Not a sexist either, but nature has made some differences in our hardwiring to make us different to secure the species continuity. And of course there are individual differences like always. 

It's kinda like tools in general. I haven't met a single woman who owns much more tools then a screw driver or two, but most guys have plenty. Even when they don't get actual use almost at all.

Also maybe in such matters the "research gene" is slightly stronger in men. :lol2: 
These things aren't readily available at your locals. You just don't bump into them. and it needs some poking around to find your way to these lovely little things. 
Although I do know some women who research the sheet out of things when they are interested.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 3, 2017)

My mom cooked my dad sharpened the knives. I am older but grew up on fresh seafood, garden vegetables, fruits from various trees. Apples and Peaches from my uncle's orchard, and chickens from the coop.

Both my nieces are good cooks and know what fresh is. Their husbands grew up on fast food didn't know anything else. At first they did not like fresh food having only canned food, burgers, pizza, fried chicken. To them vegetable was french fries. They got educated somewhat their kids were not going to grow up on fast food.

I do most the cooking. Agree men are more into knives, tools, weapons is more a male trait that's not being sexist.

I have noticed teaching knife sharpening that gender does not matter at all. In fact had quite a few girl culinary students catch on quickly and become freehand sharpeners.


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## TheCaptain (Dec 3, 2017)

brianh said:


> Men, we especially like our toys (er, tools).



This! This is the only thing saving my butt right now. DH and I have been married for over 23 years and during that time my most expensive hobby tool was maybe $150 for a _really_ good set of drawing pencils.

In the meantime he's easily gotten Lot$$ in shop tools, better than needed yard tools, etc. Thank goodness he's not really a motorhead.

So for now I just tell him I've got some catching up to do :doublethumbsup:.


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## TheCaptain (Dec 3, 2017)

Andreu said:


> I knew you would be raising an eyebrow on this one. Lol



*Grin*!

But there's a lot of truth to the OP's statement given the demographics here. I don't know how many other chicks are on this forum, but I can at best think of less than five, out of what - hundreds of dudes?


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## Nemo (Dec 3, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> This! This is the only thing saving my butt right now. DH and I have been married for over 23 years and during that time my most expensive hobby tool was maybe $150 for a _really_ good set of drawing pencils.
> 
> In the meantime he's easily gotten Lot$$ in shop tools, better than needed yard tools, etc. Thank goodness he's not really a motorhead.
> 
> So for now I just tell him I've got some catching up to do :doublethumbsup:.


Sounds like DH's shop needs an upgrade with a 2x72 belt grinder &#128515;


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## Marek07 (Dec 3, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Sounds like DH's shop needs an upgrade with a 2x72 belt grinder &#128515;


Great suggestion Nemo! If you can't convince him that he needs to get one, just surprise him with a really thoughtful gift.


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## TheCaptain (Dec 3, 2017)

And this is where I buck the usual trend . Stuck in analysis paralysis. REALLY want a variable speed one but not sure how to go...


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## Nemo (Dec 4, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> And this is where I buck the usual trend . Stuck in analysis paralysis. REALLY want a variable speed one but not sure how to go...


Start a "which belt grinder should I buy?" thread?


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## StonedEdge (Dec 4, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Start a "which belt grinder should I buy?" thread?


Maybe time for a "belt grinder questionnaire" haha


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## K813zra (Dec 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Maybe time for a "belt grinder questionnaire" haha



Yes, absolutely. I have a cheap one that is a combo with a disk grinder thing-a-ma-bobber. I'd love to learn more about these as an option and reading on other hobbyist boards leaves me scratching my head because they are so in tune with what they already need. 

Though, maybe a thread as suggested above would suffice.


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## Qualitycookie (Dec 4, 2017)

I think it can also be a case of using what is at hand. Obviously in Japan this question is not applicable.
Women cooks appreciate a good blade just like any other cook, even at home. Buy a good blade for a home female cook and she will be thoroughly pleased. 
Ihave noticed that is MUCH harder to get her to understand the upkeep aspect of carbon blades though


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## StonedEdge (Dec 4, 2017)

Qualitycookie I understand that struggle thoroughly!


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## panda (Dec 4, 2017)

for same reason why OP is probably a virgin.


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2017)

Didn't men have honed razors and scythes for centuries?


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## labor of love (Dec 4, 2017)

My GF likes my knives but doesnt really like the volume of BSTing I do(its a fear of commitment she says). But shes especially fond of things with a handmade touch to them so KU and nashiji finish, random hammer marks (NOT hammer pattern) and particular chiseled kanjis all impress her. My nashiji 210 stainless clad wakui slowly became hers over the years.
For me geeking out over jknives is the same as anyone in a profession becoming obsessed with the tools they use. I think the demographics for jknife dorkery probably is a reflection of the demographic of kitchen staff in this country or anywhere else.


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## panda (Dec 4, 2017)

not at all, kitchen staff don't give two crap about knives. we are the exception craig.. to be honest i don't really care either, i just want better tools to make work easier.


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## ecchef (Dec 4, 2017)

Qualitycookie said:


> I think it can also be a case of using what is at hand. Obviously in Japan this question is not applicable.


Not that obvious. When I met my wife she owned 3 knives; two Henckels clunkers and a low end Kira santoku. In Japan, it seems Euro knives are more popular/desirable than the domestic product with the average home cook.


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## labor of love (Dec 4, 2017)

panda said:


> not at all, kitchen staff don't give two crap about knives. we are the exception craig.. to be honest i don't really care either, i just want better tools to make work easier.



But that sentiment is shared by kitchen people all the time. People that feel that way may be a huge minority(compared to the overwhelming amount of kitchen goobers) in a man dominated field its not surprising that knife stuff shares the same demographic as the kitchen.


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## ecchef (Dec 4, 2017)

panda said:


> not at all, kitchen staff don't give two crap about knives. we are the exception craig.. to be honest i don't really care either, i just want better tools to make work easier.



I agree Panda. In the vast majority of US kitchens Ive worked in, pretty much everyone from Chef to prep guy used crappy house knives for every task. Only once (during a job interview practical) did someone come up to me and say Is that a Carter? Everyone else sees patina as dirt.


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## hairyfoots (Dec 5, 2017)

Well here is the perspective of a total gumby who just came here to learn things:
I love to cook and can be fond of a knife. (I have one of those very cheap Thai Kiwi 'pointy cleavers' and enjoy using it). But reading up on the fancy knife/hobby side of things, it's all the sharpening that puts me off. Maybe for a lot of women, the gap in their lives for beautiful but high-maintenance things is already filled by clothes/fashion/hair and beauty stuff. Personally I don't really do beauty but I certainly do fashion. But lots of men don't spend much time on their appearance, so they have an unfilled need, and the time and money, to polish and gaze lovingly at something else, like their car... or some shiny knives.

As far as preferences I would be careful to make the distinction between 'innate' preferences and essentially cultural preferences. If you grow up learning that certain things are 'cool' and manly, then they will tickle an extra special spot in your heart. Along with the spots for enjoying 'really well made functional objects' and 'care of beautiful things', which are not gender specific, but may already be filled by different hobbies for other cultural reasons.


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## AnthonyC (Dec 8, 2017)

I don't have the answer to OPs question, but I have noticed the trend in my family and friends.

My mom and wife will usually grab the paring knife to cut up onions and carrots (and roll their eyes when I explain to them there are much better options in the block). Friends have similar stories. For casual home cooks (men and women), I think they consider the knife as an appliance. Good enough will do, not much else matters.

But having prepared meals with old serrated knives, ASoTV ginsu knives, then German decent knives, and now better Japanese knives -- I recognice the ease of a quality knife on certain tasks and how much better the food turns out (there is a difference between crushing the onion, and delicate slices; uniform size chunks of anything cook evenly and prevent burning; etc). I guess it's how much you choose to care about the tools, skill, and outcome that feed your knife obsession (or lack thereof).


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## K813zra (Dec 8, 2017)

AnthonyC said:


> I don't have the answer to OPs question, but I have noticed the trend in my family and friends.
> 
> My mom and wife will usually grab the paring knife to cut up onions and carrots (and roll their eyes when I explain to them there are much better options in the block). Friends have similar stories. For casual home cooks (men and women), I think they consider the knife as an appliance. Good enough will do, not much else matters.
> 
> But having prepared meals with old serrated knives, ASoTV ginsu knives, then German decent knives, and now better Japanese knives -- I recognice the ease of a quality knife on certain tasks and how much better the food turns out (there is a difference between crushing the onion, and delicate slices; uniform size chunks of anything cook evenly and prevent burning; etc). I guess it's how much you choose to care about the tools, skill, and outcome that feed your knife obsession (or lack thereof).



I get the point here but I think people are only like that with some things. If you look at stoves and refrigerators most people want the being expensive stainless ones and now the ones that connect to your phone and weird **** like that. Many people don't like buying and driving the cheapest car on the market or wearing the cheapest closes etc. I wonder why knives get the shaft...


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## LucasFur (Dec 8, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I get the point here but I think people are only like that with some things. If you look at stoves and refrigerators most people want the being expensive stainless ones and now the ones that connect to your phone and weird **** like that. Many people don't like buying and driving the cheapest car on the market or wearing the cheapest closes etc. I wonder why knives get the shaft...



Its also general perception. If Mercedes are generally viewed as good people want them. Stainless appliances are viewed as better than plastic = Desired more. 
From what i see, what is considered high end is shun/henkles/Wüsthof/Global/Laguiole to a lesser extent Schmidt Brothers/ KitchenAid/ Cuisinart/ OXO. 
Brands that are not generally recognized are not viewed as desired like your Home Depot brand. 

Leveling up to a Japanese knife is like owning a ferrari for daily driving, but with out the public recognition that other luxury items would give. eg. expensive sunglasses, jewelry, clothes.


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## scott.livesey (Dec 8, 2017)

I did in the sharpening section as belt grinders


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## scott.livesey (Dec 8, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Start a "which belt grinder should I buy?" thread?



just started one in the Sharpening Section


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## K813zra (Dec 8, 2017)

LucasFur said:


> Its also general perception. If Mercedes are generally viewed as good people want them. Stainless appliances are viewed as better than plastic = Desired more.
> From what i see, what is considered high end is shun/henkles/Wüsthof/Global/Laguiole to a lesser extent Schmidt Brothers/ KitchenAid/ Cuisinart/ OXO.
> Brands that are not generally recognized are not viewed as desired like your Home Depot brand.
> 
> Leveling up to a Japanese knife is like owning a ferrari for daily driving, but with out the public recognition that other luxury items would give. eg. expensive sunglasses, jewelry, clothes.



I'm not sure from a local standpoint I agree with a Mercedes being the best example but I get your point.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 8, 2017)

Mercedes here are a status symbol. Leading car brand Toyota. Cheaper, more reliable, and don't cost a fortune to service. Do not think having a sharp awesome chef knife will gather much status symbol points:sad0:


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## StonedEdge (Dec 8, 2017)

I don't think it has much to do with gender. I think it boils down to ignorance. Most folks think all Japanese knives are hyper expensive and extremely delicate. People don't venture out of their comfort zones so the old Henckels set does the trick. When they're too dull to cut jello they get tossed out and a new set comes home from Wal Mart


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## K813zra (Dec 8, 2017)

keithsaltydog said:


> Mercedes here are a status symbol. Leading car brand Toyota. Cheaper, more reliable, and don't cost a fortune to service. Do not think having a sharp awesome chef knife will gather much status symbol points:sad0:



I was thinking something along those lines too.


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## LucasFur (Dec 8, 2017)

keithsaltydog said:


> Mercedes here are a status symbol. Leading car brand Toyota. Cheaper, more reliable, and don't cost a fortune to service. Do not think having a sharp awesome chef knife will gather much status symbol points:sad0:



Its a widely regarded phenom on that perception of goods is more important that reality. 
And yes, I am comparing a henkels knife block with a Mercedes.
Those who want a standard knife will get a victornox or use generic plastic yellow handle blade, which i will compare to a honda. 

And just like Mercedes making the B-class. Henkels makes the yellow handle generic knife as well.

Im sure everyone of us had friends or family say "I want a nice knife, what knife should i get?" then they always ask, "what about a zwilling?" 
If they didnt care, they wouldn't be asking us about knives. Just like a person asking a car guy, "i want a nice car" ... with the eventual response "what about Mercedes, BMW ... etc. " 


To answer OP's question. Sorry Stoned edge. I completely disagree with you. 
Women not interested in knives is a male/female trait as men care about objects(collections), women care about relationships. (generally speaking) 
Imagine, Watch collectors, train collectors, Car collectors, Computer Guys. - Yes women collect hand bags, Shoes, jewellery. but not to the same obsessive extent of the collectors of men. Watch Jordan Peterson if you dont believe me. 
This can also be explain partially the Hikikomori in japan, where acquisition is more important than relationships.


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## K813zra (Dec 8, 2017)

Most people that have asked about knives, that I know, don't even know what a zwiling or victorinox is. If they asked about cars it would be a Corvette, Challenger etc. More likely, in this area they would ask about a truck or a Jeep. I just don't think this is a very universal way of looking at it. 

Honestly, I know a lot of people who would equate a "good knife" to something from Rada Cutlery. Not even a second rate knife line from a known company.


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## scott.livesey (Dec 8, 2017)

a piece maybe that men seem to be more in love with their tools than just getting the job done. a $20 drill from Harbor Freight will drill a hole just like the $200 Bosch. you don't need a $50 hammer to drive nails, but enough are bought that several companies now make them. except in a restaurant situation, a woman just wants to cut food to make a meal. Is she happy to use a nice laser sharp knife? sure, but she will make a meal with a thrift store special if she has to. my wife sees the $200 spent on a new knife as $200 that could be spent on several other things that will benefit everyone, not just her for the 10 minutes it takes to prep a meal.


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## LucasFur (Dec 8, 2017)

scott.livesey said:


> as $200 that could be spent on several other things that will benefit everyone, not just her for the 10 minutes it takes to prep a meal.


My point exactly. 

But if your really interested in male/female trait you can watch this. Very hot topic in Canada at the moment. 

[video=youtube;ewvqEqIXdhU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewvqEqIXdhUI[/video]


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 8, 2017)

Yep Lucus got that. I often compare thin edge Japanese knives to Ferrari's. 

Have noticed that women do not like carbon blades & even stainless clad were the edge gets dark. Seen plenty guys go for carbon as soon as they get a chance to use it.

I got my better half a Takamura R2 Santoku that she loves. Lately she has been grabbing my carbon Carter. It is thin, very sharp, and little 135mm. Leaves it on the board in whatever juices she used it for while she eats her lunch. I wash it wipe it down maybe put a little oil on it. It's OK kind of cool that she likes to use the little Carter. 

Our local rag had an article on the rise of sexual misconduct. It is not a rise it has always been there, changing times and the media bring it to the surface. When I think of the things that went on in the kitchens in early 1970's between cooks & waitress both verbally and physical, don't think you could get away with that today.

Don't mean to sound sexist woman as a rule are set up different than men. If men accept this they are better off. Face it men are better off with a good woman just treat them nice. And keep your opinions to your self if you know they don't want to hear it.


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## StonedEdge (Dec 8, 2017)

I agree in that I've noticed that generally men are spec whores, they obsess over the spec sheet of almost anything (cars, power tools, knives, hunting rifles, fishing rods, computers etc) but to me, this is an extension of men having hobbies more than women. Ever tried asking women about their actual hobbies....nearly non-existent (relationships and shopping are not hobbies). 

Just something I've noticed over the years, women my age (late 20s) have no hobbies while guys in the same age bracket could list 2 or 3 serious hobbies off the top of their heads, hobbies=the accumulation of stuff.


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## K813zra (Dec 8, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I agree in that I've noticed that generally men are spec whores, they obsess over the spec sheet of almost anything (cars, power tools, knives, hunting rifles, fishing rods, computers etc) but to me, this is an extension of men having hobbies more than women. Ever tried asking women about their actual hobbies....nearly non-existent (relationships and shopping are not hobbies).
> 
> Just something I've noticed over the years, women my age (late 20s) have no hobbies while guys in the same age bracket could list 2 or 3 serious hobbies off the top of their heads, hobbies=the accumulation of stuff.



Define hobbies. In my circle almost all of the women raise chickens for "fun", knit, crochet, learn a third or fourth language, take dance class, swim class, go to the gym etc. These are all in my age range, 30-40. Older women that I know you can add to that list with things such as bingo and bowling etc. Hell, I remember a tea tasting group that my wife belonged to. They would drink tea and play freaking board games in what looked like a dilapidated building covered in graffiti--actually it didn't look like that, that is what it was.

Yall just know boring people...

I do agree that we men geek out over specs though. And I can not deny that I have or have had tons of hobbies and the attention span of a gnat...


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## nastyfatdave (Dec 9, 2017)

Certainly any women out there looking to enter the online Japanese knife collecting community will stumble on this thread and feel welcome and respected -- _this_ is the place for them. But only if they can be bothered to put down their handbags and pick up a hobby for once in their boring lives.


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## Marek07 (Dec 9, 2017)

nastyfatdave said:


> Certainly any women out there looking to enter the online Japanese knife collecting community will stumble on this thread and feel welcome and respected -- _this_ is the place for them. But only if they can be bothered to put down their handbags and pick up a hobby for once in their boring lives.


Well that's sure to make them feel welcomed... *Not!*


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## orangehero (Dec 9, 2017)

One other point I think is that men are interested with _how_ things are made (from a general desire to be able to make things). If one is interested in and respects how knives (or any tools) are made, then one grows an appreciation for higher quality tools like Japanese knives and the craftsmanship and materials that go into their manufacture. For example in comparison to some other feminine collection items like shoes or purses I've never really noticed it going into understanding in the depth the features of manufacture. Plus having knowledge of tools makes you feel like you are more like someone who uses those tools to make great things even if you don't reach any great feats of accomplishment yourself.


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## Nemo (Dec 9, 2017)

nastyfatdave said:


> ...But only if they can be bothered to put down their handbags and pick up a hobby for once in their boring lives.



???? Huh????

Am I missing some irony here? Or was it meant to be offensive to women in general?


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## TheCaptain (Dec 9, 2017)

I got Irony from it. Let's face the facts, any woman who makes it here probably won't have an obsession with handbags. I know I don't. Well except for old school Coach because real leather, hand stitched, built to take a beating and functional as well.


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## OliverNuther (Dec 9, 2017)

nastyfatdave said:


> Certainly any women out there looking to enter the online Japanese knife collecting community will stumble on this thread and feel welcome and respected -- _this_ is the place for them. But only if they can be bothered to put down their handbags and pick up a hobby for once in their boring lives.



5 posts in 6 years. On average we won't have to put up with his BS for too long.


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## K813zra (Dec 9, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> I got Irony from it. Let's face the facts, any woman who makes it here probably won't have an obsession with handbags. I know I don't. Well except for old school Coach because real leather, hand stitched, built to take a beating and functional as well.



I suppose it depends on why they visit. My wife cruises around here for ideas of what to get me for the holidays. Then again, she does not actively participate in conversations and could care less about knives. :lol2:

As an aside, two male cousins of my wife have a huge obsession with "shoulder bags", they are male purses. Seemed much more common when I lived in Europe. Men having purses just as often as women. Makes sense out of a utility standpoint when you walk EVERYWHERE. Need to carry some water, tissues, heartburn medication etc...Yep, I went to the dark side by mine is a tactical pilots bag, okay...:nunchucks: Holds a tablet too!


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## StonedEdge (Dec 9, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Let's face the facts, any woman who makes it here probably won't have an obsession with hand bags.



This is probably the truth! Great post

Also I apologize if my last post regarding men vs women and hobbies came on a little generalistic and borderline sexist. I certainly did not mean it in that way. The original post refers specifically to why both genders view the kitchen knife differently so it's difficult to tip toe around whys and why nots without ending up sounding a little sexist IMO.

Also I totally agree that my previous observation is probably the result of me knowing mostly boring peope, male and female lol 

People who play with knives usually have thick skin so I'm not worried anyone might get worked up over this thread


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## Paraffin (Dec 9, 2017)

Maybe this point was made earlier, but we haven't exactly reached equality between the sexes in division of household responsibilities. It's still the case that women are usually the ones who cook for the family on a daily basis, who pack the kid's lunches before school, and are responsible for getting food on the table for dinner. It's a job, not a hobby. It's not something to think about when you have free time for doing something else.

Men are more likely to approach cooking as a hobby, with all the geeky tool acquisition associated with hobbies, simply because they have that freedom of choice for when to cook, or not cook. 

I know this is a sweeping generalization, and there are other factors like the "knives are cool weapons" thing that boys are exposed to, in the culture. But I think freedom to approach cooking as a hobby, and not a job as a result of traditional gender roles, is definitely part of it.


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## K813zra (Dec 9, 2017)

Paraffin said:


> Maybe this point was made earlier, but we haven't exactly reached equality between the sexes in division of household responsibilities. It's still the case that women are usually the ones who cook for the family on a daily basis, who pack the kid's lunches before school, and are responsible for getting food on the table for dinner. It's a job, not a hobby. It's not something to think about when you have free time for doing something else.
> 
> Men are more likely to approach cooking as a hobby, with all the geeky tool acquisition associated with hobbies, simply because they have that freedom of choice for when to cook, or not cook.
> 
> I know this is a sweeping generalization, and there are other factors like the "knives are cool weapons" thing that boys are exposed to, in the culture. But I think freedom to approach cooking as a hobby, and not a job as a result of traditional gender roles, is definitely part of it.



Being a "house husband" I am the one who takes on those roles and still find cooking can be a hobby even if it is an obligation. No reason for it to be mundane if you can enjoy it. I learned that from my mother, who while "obliged" to do so, loves to cook and bake. I also think this sort of thing is becoming more common but as you said, may not be the norm. But in this day and age no one partner should feel obliged to cook etc. It takes two...


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## nastyfatdave (Dec 9, 2017)

Marek07 said:


> Well that's sure to make them feel welcomed... *Not!*





OliverNuther said:


> 5 posts in 6 years. On average we won't have to put up with his BS for too long.



Sarcasm is seriously lost on you two Aussies, innit?


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## Paraffin (Dec 9, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Being a "house husband" I am the one who takes on those roles and still find cooking can be a hobby even if it is an obligation. No reason for it to be mundane if you can enjoy it. I learned that from my mother, who while "obliged" to do so, loves to cook and bake. I also think this sort of thing is becoming more common but as you said, may not be the norm. But in this day and age no one partner should feel obliged to cook etc. It takes two...



It takes two... absolutely, as an ideal case anyway! And things are moving in a better direction away from traditional gender roles. Also, once the kids are out of the house, cooking can become more of an option for fun, and not an obligation.


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## tripleq (Dec 9, 2017)

Is this thread really happening? Mind = blown.


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## K813zra (Dec 9, 2017)

tripleq said:


> Is this thread really happening? Mind = blown.



Nope, it is an illusion that does not actually exist.


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## scott.livesey (Dec 9, 2017)

tripleq said:


> Is this thread really happening? Mind = blown.



i guess. please note, the exact same thread was started on the food/cooking forum I visit(https://cheftalk.com/threads/why-ar...r-within-female-buyers-as-end-customer.95961/). proabably the same guy.


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## tripleq (Dec 9, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Nope, it is an illusion that does not actually exist.



An illusion that does not actually exist? Then how did you ever find it? :rofl2:


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## K813zra (Dec 9, 2017)

tripleq said:


> An illusion that does not actually exist? Then how did you ever find it? :rofl2:



I didn't find it and neither did you. None of this is happening right now. It is all in your head.


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## tripleq (Dec 9, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I didn't find it and neither did you. None of this is happening right now. It is all in your head.



LOL!!!


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## OliverNuther (Dec 9, 2017)

nastyfatdave said:


> Sarcasm is seriously lost on you two Aussies, innit?



I can recognise sarcasm perfectly well. I just didn't see any. Only boorishness.


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## Chef Doom (Dec 9, 2017)

Women are not into knives the same as men because knives are not shiny, sparkley, or colorful. 

If you want more female knife customers you got to do the following.

1. Deck that Watanabe with glitter and rhinstones on the spine. 

2. Put a diamond laced handle on that Shigefusa with diamond dust on the blade face. 

3. Spray paint the kurouchi finish with bright in your face colors. 

4. Advertise that using a Geshin Ginga for just 20 minutes in the kitchen burns 800 calories.

Do these things and your next local blade show will have more women walking around than a Lady Gaga concert.


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## daveb (Dec 9, 2017)

Doesn't Joel do all of that already?


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## Nemo (Dec 9, 2017)

nastyfatdave said:


> Sarcasm is seriously lost on you two Aussies, innit?


On the contrary. If you know any Aussies, you'll know that irony and sarcasm forms a pretty important plank in our style of humour (classic Aussie ironic understatement right there). I practice irony and sarcasm every day and I reckon that I'm pretty good at picking them up.

I am glad to hear that it was an ironic remark and in that context I get it. And I'm glad that at least one of the Forum's women took it in that vein.

I guess it just goes to show that irony doesn't translate easily to text, or at least the vocal and non-verbal cues that we give to indicate irony don't exist. Maybe we need to be careful give other cues when being ironic or sarcastic in text, especially if the remark could be offensive if not recognised as ironic.


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## K813zra (Dec 9, 2017)

Nemo said:


> On the contrary. If you know any Aussies, you'll know that irony and sarcasm forms a pretty important plank in our style of humour (classic Aussie ironic understatement right there). I practice irony and sarcasm every day and I reckon that I'm pretty good at picking them up.
> 
> I am glad to hear that it was an ironic remark and in that context I get it. And I'm glad that at least one of the Forum's women took it in that vein.
> 
> I guess it just goes to show that irony doesn't translate easily to text, or at least the vocal and non-verbal cues that we give to indicate irony don't exist. Maybe we need to be careful give other cues when being ironic or sarcastic in text, especially if the remark could be offensive if not recognised as ironic.



Ironic Aussies, never. My best mate is from QLD and a few other good friends are from NSW. Ironic banter is something I would never, ever, expect to hear.


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## Nemo (Dec 9, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Ironic Aussies, never. My best mate is from QLD and a few other good friends are from NSW. Ironic banter is something I would never, ever, expect to hear.


Chuckles quietly (recognising the irony this time).


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 9, 2017)

I like Lady Gaga

A painted saya with glitter edge and a built in smart phone

A makeup kit in a screw end cap wa handle


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## orangehero (Dec 9, 2017)




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## Chef Doom (Dec 10, 2017)

orangehero said:


>


There needs to be a whole line of knives like these. Any knife maker that makes cute knives wont be able to keep up with production.


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## daveb (Dec 10, 2017)

It's not the knife - it's the handle. Herr Keller the Handlemeister?


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## shinyunggyun (Jan 2, 2021)

Women like to use good knives, but don't want to go through the task of sharpening them when they get dull. Knife sharpening is a manly task. Just like fixing cars. That's why I am so glad I know how to do these things, because if I don't, I'll feel like a lady asking a man to do these things for me. Also, these tasks come more naturally to the hands of a man. Boxing also.


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## ian (Jan 2, 2021)

Well, that was definitely a response worthy of a 3 yr necro...


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## Nemo (Jan 2, 2021)

Impressive necromancy powers.

Hopefully it was meant ironically rather than as a troll.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 2, 2021)

Farming is a manly task, and I feel like a lady every time I go to the grocery store. Or it might be the two-piece lace lingerie set I wear underneath my carhart jeans and camo hoodie. We'll never know for sure because garbage-posting on the internet comes more naturally to the hands of a man.


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## orangehero (Jan 2, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Farming is a manly task, and I feel like a lady every time I go to the grocery store. Or it might be the two-piece lace lingerie set I wear underneath my carhart jeans and camo hoodie. We'll never know for sure because garbage-posting on the internet comes more naturally to the hands of a man.


for better or worse women don't know how to use the internet


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 2, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> Women like to use good knives, but don't want to go through the task of sharpening them when they get dull. Knife sharpening is a manly task. Just like fixing cars. That's why I am so glad I know how to do these things, because if I don't, I'll feel like a lady asking a man to do these things for me. Also, these tasks come more naturally to the hands of a man. Boxing also.


Didn't you ever watch girls garage? Taught sharpening at culinary school over 7 years girls pick up sharpening just as well as men. Sometimes better. Why do you think women are used in intricate assembly jobs, they are better at it then men. I am guilty of stereotyping men as better drivers than females. Boxing some, but agree it is a male sport. Better half has no interest in boxing I like to watch the sweet science.


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## Lucretia (Jan 3, 2021)

Why aren't Japanese knives popular with women? Mostly because they don't know about them.

Several years ago I went to a conference that had some big-name chefs holding question and answer sessions. One thing that everyone wanted to know was what was a good knife. There were 2 answers: Henckels and Wusthof. If you went to any major department store, those 2 brands were the "high end" knives. We were taught to look for a knife with a full tang--that was supposed to be a sign of quality. If you wanted to find a quality Japanese knife, you aren't going to find it where the general public goes shopping. It seems like the idea that Japanese knives are a quality item only started showing up in the mainstream when Alton Brown got in bed with Shun. It's not that women don't want good knives--or sharpen them, or use the internet, or have interests beyond shoes. They just don't know about them and have been told that big, heavy German knives are the best things out there. (Probably true for most men, too.) Some people have what they feel is a significant investment in those big german clunkers--and they were told they were the best. Why would they look for anything else? 

I just checked the offerings at a couple major department stores, and the predominant brand was Henckels. Only one of the 2 stores offered any japanese knives, and they were Shuns. You certainly aren't going to find out about Shigs unless you go digging for more information. And many people don't have the time to do that. I used crappy knives for years until I started cooking all our meals at home and started having problems with aching wrists. I fell into the knife rabbit hole when I found out that a good knife means it doesn't hurt to cut up a carrot. 

As far as the "women don't like sharpening/carbon/only want shoes and purses" type of commens--what a colossal load of crap.


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## Gregmega (Jan 3, 2021)




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## Jovidah (Jan 3, 2021)

I'm physically ill-equipped to give a female's perspective, but I'll voice an opinion anyway. Talking crap and mansplaining out of their ass comes more naturally to a man after all...

I think Lucretia has a good point about obscurity. 10 years ago even among the culinary world Japanese knives were really obscure here in the Netherlands. In the last decade you slowly saw it drip into mainstream, and now it's slowly starting to show up in most cooking stores - in _very_ limited quantities, and usually the 'lesser' brands. But the general 'professional' advice here even now is to just go get Wüsthof / Zwilling / Sabatier. That's all you'll see in most cooking programs, all you'll see in most stores and all you'll see even in most 'consumer advice' and reviews.

You _really _had to get out of your way to even get to know Japanese knives up until about 5 years ago. It's not just that they were unpopular or unknown with females, it's that they were unpopular and unknown with males as well. It's not hard to convince most people regardless of gender of the superiority of a good knife when you give them one; it's just that most never got the opportunity. If there's any 'gender-based explanation' for any gender differences in J-knife adaption it probably lies in either an increased willingness to expose oneself to hours of internet research, and/or and increased willingness to multiply a budget for what most people consider nothing but a simple kitchen tool.

When it comes to sharpening... 99% of people I know don't sharpen regardless of gender. Girlfriend would probably agree though that something as mundane as repetitively rubbing a piece of metal on a piece of rock must be a male thing... 

It's probably also safe to say that there might be more females than one realizes in some nerdy corners of the internet, it's just that most don't necessarily advertise the specifics of their genitals.


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## Iggy (Jan 3, 2021)

Hi,

in my sourroundings (living in a city in Germany, mid 30ies, mostly sourrounded by academics), it's an easy question from OT to answer.... Men cook, Women don't... 

(means cooking for fun, good food, as a hobby... for just "feeding" your familiy, you don't need a honyaki gyuto  )

Honestly... in most of the households of my family and friends that are approx. my age, either the man is a cook or hobbycook (as it is in our household... I cook every day and I think not too bad, my wife can't make anything else than pancakes) and the women can't or don't cook or neither of both can cook, because food isn't relevant in their household...

It seems to me (just from my perspective of course), that cooking and good eating (in my age) is more a men's than a women's thing.

Therefore it does make sense, that cooking knives are more a men's thing, too...

Of course this is just my individual perspective, but it does seem to me also to be a question of age.

Looking at my parents generation for example, in most households, the woman cooks and the man can't cook at all. I think my father is one lonely exeption (he is 79) in so far that he can cook quite good actually. But mostly, my mom cooks. Bought her some decent knives over the years and she does use them (TF Maboroshi, Tojiro DP3HQ, ...) but I think that's maybe more my influence 


Best,
Iggy


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## tcmx3 (Jan 3, 2021)

not to be dour but in all honesty I wouldnt be surprised if women buying Japanese knives was just as common as men, but that their participation in spaces talking about it is a lot lower because of threads like this, even when theyre in jest.

IMO at some point forum goers, if they want to stem the tide of these things dying in favor of facebook groups or whatever, have to realize that the reason forums look the way they do demographically is much more to do with how they behave than it is inherent to gender/race/etc


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## alterwisser (Jan 3, 2021)

Gotta agree with @Iggy here.

For all women I know knives are just tools, eg: Ikea will do.

I think the men who are into cooking (not just as a means to feed a family), it’s generally more of an obsession (the right pepper, the best pans, cutting edge - no pun - edge knives).... but I think there’s another element to it: a knife at its core is one of the most archaic tools known to mankind. I think we are somewhat drawn to that aspect as well.

I do believe that there are women who have good knives, but it’s probably in the Global category and not an obsession/collection type of thing.


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## ian (Jan 3, 2021)

It's worth saying too that 95% of the people bringing me knives to sharpen are women. And some of the knives people bring are decent quality Japanese. So women are definitely using them! (Of course, most knives people bring are crap, though.)

I'd second @tcmx3's observation about online forums like this one not being the most welcoming venue. One can't really draw any conclusions about knife use from participation here. In my local FB cooks groups, the gender split is much more even, perhaps 65% female? Gut guess. I didn't count.

You can find lots of articles about men being more into collecting than women, etc... but it's not clear to me that these are any more rigorous than opinion articles, and any difference in numbers may not be solely about the action itself but about the culture surrounding it, so saying generalizations like "men like to collect more" seems kind of pointless.

Whatever. Let the people have their knives.


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## Iggy (Jan 3, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> I do believe that there are women who have good knives, but it’s probably in the Global category and not an obsession/collection type of thing.



Yes, my wife f.e. has three kitchen knives... and they are 3 customs...
(maybe that's due to the fact that they were gifts from me... but just maybe...  )


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## ian (Jan 3, 2021)

Maybe a followup to my comment above: a lot of the talk in this thread assumes that there’s some sort of biological disposition toward fancy knives that’s stronger on average in men for some reason. I have no idea whether something like that is true, but it’s also just impossible to divorce questions of gender disparity from culture. I mean, I didn’t buy any knife that KKF would approve of until I’d been on the forum for a couple months. If I’d been turned off by the forum, I might still be using Shuns. The type of knives that we talk about here aren’t even advertised to most people, so you have to immerse yourself in a particular culture (the knife nut community, or pro kitchens, which are also heavily male from what I hear) to even hear of them. It could that any current disparity (if it exists) in how many men/women are into a certain thing is completely culturally based, and stems from the way things were a century ago when special interest communities were just starting to develop, since the current makeup of those communities influences future membership.


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## alterwisser (Jan 3, 2021)

Iggy said:


> Yes, my wife f.e. has three kitchen knives... and they are 3 customs...
> (maybe that's due to the fact that they were gifts from me... but just maybe...  )



My wife has a custom Xerxes with spacers in the colors of her favorite futbol team.

My mom has a Dalman and an Ashi

My mom in law has a Butch Harner and Del Ealy

coincidences


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## tcmx3 (Jan 3, 2021)

ian said:


> Maybe a followup to my comment above: a lot of the talk in this thread assumes that there’s some sort of biological disposition toward fancy knives that’s stronger on average in men for some reason. I have no idea whether something like that is true, but it’s also just impossible to divorce questions of gender disparity from culture. I mean, I didn’t buy any knife that KKF would approve of until I’d been on the forum for a couple months. If I’d been turned off by the forum, I might still be using Shuns. The type of knives that we talk about here aren’t even advertised to most people, so you have to immerse yourself in a particular culture (the knife nut community, or pro kitchens, which are also heavily male from what I hear) to even hear of them. It could that any current disparity (if it exists) in how many men/women are into a certain thing is completely culturally based, and stems from the way things were a century ago when special interest communities were just starting to develop, since the current makeup of those communities influences future membership.



strong agree.

I think unfortunately a lot of people's mistaken belief that their opinion is fact extends to issues of gender.

if people are going to make generalizations they should provide some evidence, IMO.


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## M1k3 (Jan 3, 2021)

ian said:


> ...or pro kitchens, which are also heavily male from what I hear)...


I'm only 1 sample. Out of the 7 kitchens I've worked in, 2 had female cooks. 1 other one had a female cook for about 2 months. I'd say more females are working in pro kitchens now than 10+ years ago though.


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## daveb (Jan 3, 2021)

It's simple.

Men cook to get laid. They want every advantage.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 3, 2021)

Well this forum is male oriented. It's good that Lucretia chimed in to keep us honest

I'm sure I'm not the only one who grew up around strong women. Janice who is retired Nurse is unfazed by blood or injury.


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## mcwcdn (Jan 3, 2021)

My wife doesn't like the Japanese knives due to the following reasons...

1. Maintenance and not being able to put in the dishwasher 
2. "Too sharp" 

Number 2 I don't understand as that's the point of a kitchen knife but I respect her opinion


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## Ruso (Jan 3, 2021)

In my experience both sexes can care less about knives in general.


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## juice (Jan 3, 2021)

Four days into 2021 and already we have a winner for dumbest thread necro of the year


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2021)

juice said:


> Four days into 2021 and already we have a winner for dumbest thread necro of the year


The year is yet young


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## juice (Jan 3, 2021)

Nemo said:


> The year is yet young


Sure, but feel the quality!


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## Mikeadunne (Jan 4, 2021)

mods or someone please banish this stupid thread back to 2017


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## landshark (Jan 11, 2021)

we share the cooking in our house but for my wife having six different knives for specific tasks is unnecessary for what she cooks, for me the collector I using all the different styles, shapes and makers, more for fun than nescessity. Which brings us to the main reason she is not knife obsessed, she just wants use them but not worry over them, it took the longest time for me to break her of the habit of leaving knives in the sink. So I bought her own good quality, Japanese knives,but not crazy quality knives, a gyuto, a santoku, bread knife, utility and a pairing knife. She loves them because they cut well and she can treat them any way she likes and I do not have to worry about the edges on the rest of the collection


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## DrEriksson (Jan 12, 2021)

I found this question interesting. We talk quite a bit about sex differences at home, what's genetic, what's societal, etc. If you don't appreciate an amateur guessing about things, please ignore the rest of my message.

From what I understand, there are some differences between men and women that have slightly different mean values and the same (or similar) standard deviations. This means that on average, there is a small difference, but at the ends of the distribution, there might be large differences in population beyond certain points. One example that often comes up is the propensity to commit violent crimes. On average, there's a little difference between how violent men and women are, but that small difference makes a rather large impact on the extremes. As such, when we go grocery shopping we are not more afraid of the men in the store than we are of the women in the store. But if we look at people in jail for violent crimes, we'll find way more men than women.

Perhaps there is a personality trait, which is slightly affected by sex, that determines how interested someone will be in knives. Let's assume that if the trait is above a certain level, those people will be willing to invest in custom knives (or get any other crazy knife interest). While there is only a slight difference in average knife interest, the sex with just a slightly higher average interest in knives will be over represented beyond that point. (I also did a graph to look smarter.)

Regardless, we should welcome everyone who has an unhealthy obsession about knives to our community... apart from those who also happen to score high on the violence metric.


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## Dhoff (Jan 12, 2021)

juice said:


> Four days into 2021 and already we have a winner for dumbest thread necro of the year



*frantically starts searching for a dumber thread to necro*


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## JASinIL2006 (Jan 12, 2021)

Dhoff said:


> *frantically starts searching for a dumber thread to necro*



Not possible. Just enjoy the sweeping, groundless generalizations.


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## DitmasPork (Jan 12, 2021)

Small % of women J-knife users perhaps in part reflecting the relatively small number of women working as sushi chefs, a field that's for the most part, male dominated. With time, I'm certain J-knives will work their way into women's knife rolls. 

When I've watched 'Top Chef,' nearly all the women contestants have j-knives in their kits.

It took over 30 years for Michelin to award a star to a female chef.

Not a lot of women members on KKF that I've noticed, not the most welcoming forum for women based on my observations.


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