# Whetstone advice wanted am I crazy?



## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

Hi all so the last two days I've racking my brain I'm sure I've seen or heard of before whetstones that are made using ground up powdered jnat stone but on google searching I can not for the life of me find anything about it... Have I made this up in my head or not understood previously? I've got a whetstone currently that's 3000/8000 and a Welsh purple slate that I finish on and I get nice polished but still slightly toothy edges especially on my blue #1 but I'm looking to step up my game in a big way with buying a TF Denka no hoto in a few months time... Do these stones exist and would they be worth it? What stones would be worth while either replacements or bonuses to my current array... The whetstone I have 3000/8000 is a wusthof I got around 6 years ago.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Apr 14, 2021)

I've heard of stones made from ground coticule, but not of Jnat


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## Bart.s (Apr 14, 2021)

Morihei Hishiboshi Karasu Whetstone #9000


Morihei Hishiboshi 9000 grit whetstone is made by Morihei in Tokyo and is a special formula only by him. Using a mixture of synthetic and natural stone powder this stone leaves a very nice kasumi finish with great contrast. This stone can be used as a splash and go stone and does not require...




hitohira-japan.com





This one?

EDIT: I see you're from Scotland, also available in Europe:









Japanese sharpening stones | Hiomakivi.fi English


Quality Japanese sharpening stones and whetstones for knives. Naniwa, Shapton, Cerax, Suehiro, Morihei, Atoma. Our goal is to offer you one of the best-valued whetstones and knives from the higher end of the range. These stones are used in kitchens and workshops all over.




www.whetstone.fi


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## Infrared (Apr 14, 2021)

Kitayama Fine Grain Sharpening Stone - #8000


About the BrandThe Kitayama stone's name originates from the North Mountain (Kitayama) in Kyoto, where some of the best natural stones are found. Although the Kitayama stone is not 100% natural stone, it contains natural stone powder to give customers the benefits without the risks. The Kitayama...




www.korin.com













Arashiyama #6000 whetstone w/ base and nagura


Arashiyama #6000 grit fine whetstone. Mounted on a rot resistant wooden base. Comes with nagura. The Arashiyama 6000 is a mix of synthetic and natural grit. Ideal for finishing most double bevel kitchen knives as it leaves a fine, slightly toothy edge necessary for vegetable prep. It is one of...




bernalcutlery.com


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

Oh wow that's the exact stone I was thinking of Bart.s the other ones too Infrared look great as well.. I'm looking to get something as polished as I can but with a bite to it still... Something I find my Welsh slate I have to be a bit careful of it can give me some tooth but it can also go so damn smooth that you can't cut tomato or even newspaper. I'm trying to find something that's got a nice polish that'll still slice everything I want nicely with a santoku. Mainly soft to medium hardness veg, fruit and meats... I definitely don't like the 8k finish on the wustof seems a bit rough feels about the same as an ex Co workers 4k


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## Bart.s (Apr 14, 2021)

Glad to be of service . But to still have some nice bite, you don't need to go that high in grit. My progression stops at 3K-5K.


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## tcmx3 (Apr 14, 2021)

ChefDan96 said:


> Hi all so the last two days I've racking my brain I'm sure I've seen or heard of before whetstones that are made using ground up powdered jnat stone but on google searching I can not for the life of me find anything about it... Have I made this up in my head or not understood previously? I've got a whetstone currently that's 3000/8000 and a Welsh purple slate that I finish on and I get nice polished but still slightly toothy edges especially on my blue #1 but I'm looking to step up my game in a big way with buying a TF Denka no hoto in a few months time... Do these stones exist and would they be worth it? What stones would be worth while either replacements or bonuses to my current array... The whetstone I have 3000/8000 is a wusthof I got around 6 years ago.



are you trying to sharpen anything other than just the apex with these stones? a 3k/8k combo and one of these isnt going to cut it for that. not even close. in fact, if the knife ever dulls even doing the apex with that wont cut it. youre not going to make meaningful progress on 65+ hrc TF steel with a 3k.

furthermore you cant compare what the very hard carbon aogami super edge feels like off a stone to what a wusthof does. 

ugh Im gonna take some fire from the people who feel any comment that's not overwhelmingly positive about TF is a personal insult, but I think youre biting off more than you can chew here. that said, if you have the money, by all means go acquire all the synthetic stones youll need (so like, 220, 500, 1000, a 2 or 3k, and make sure you get ones that can cut such high hrc steel) and a suita I think that would cover the basics.


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

If you're just sharpening edges, there's no reason at all to get a stone that has anything to do with jnats. Just get a Shapton Glass 4k or a Gesshin 4k. You're never going to get a better gyuto edge than those, probably. (I only have the Gesshin, but people I respect like the Glass too in that grit.) At some point you'll want a 1k and/or a 500, but just get one of the 4k's and when you need a lower grit stone you'll know it, because you'll be fed up with spending time on higher grit stones. That said, the Gesshin is stupid fast for a 4k.


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

I use the 3000/8000 on my 66hrc sg2 miyabi birchwood okay but I will be honest in that I sit get music on and go to work for a good while when I sharpen my knives which could change my results and opinions on things other than that my 63hrc blue #1 I thinned on the "3000" side of the wustof stone and it came out fine.. I know fujiwara can have some fit and finish issues but working in Japanese sectors I've always been told by the chefs a Japanese knife isn't meant to come finished that they come ready to work and you make it as polished or sharp as you like... I don't mind putting in work on a blade if It does need anything. However I do want to step my game up and make my knives as nice as I can make them.


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

Oh, if you're actually planning to thin and such, you should immediately get some lower grit stones. 

Personally, I think that if you have to put music on and go to work for a while for a routine sharpening, you should be using a lower grit stone.


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## branwell (Apr 14, 2021)

I haven't used the stones you have so cant compare, but I do have an Arashiyama 6K which is one of the natural synthetic blends and it ended up being one of my least used finishers.
I love the idea of blending synthetics and naturals and thought it would be the killer app, but as it turns out, its like any other stone. Works for some, doesn't work for others.

My advice if you want to go down the waterstone rabbit hole is to be open minded and try everything until you find stones you like. If money is an issue, you can trade ( there is a buy trade sell forum on this board ). I'm sure there is something local in Scotland.


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

ian said:


> Oh, if you're actually planning to thin and such, you should immediately get some lower grit stones.
> 
> Personally, I think that if you have to put music on and go to work for a while for a routine sharpening, you should be using a lower grit stone.


I am looking into possibly a 400? I've been lucky enough in that I've never needed lower in all my years I keep my knives fairly sharp and polished however I do tend to spend about 30-40 minutes per blade when I'm sharpening... I would like to get into some rebeveling on my blue #1 it's always had a bit of over and under grinding and I've just kept using it very slowly correcting it with sharpening. It would definitely be nice to be able to get a nice clean straight bevel on both sides of if.


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## Bart.s (Apr 14, 2021)

I guess you will hear a lot of music when you thin on a 3K


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> I guess you will hear a lot of music when you thin on a 3K


About 10-15 Elvis Presley songs the first time  now I just spend a few minutes per side each time I sharpen running it up and down the stone to very slowly keep it there... The takeo murata came with thick and thin spots like a rollarcoater on the finger it was


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

ChefDan96 said:


> I do tend to spend about 30-40 minutes per blade when I'm sharpening



That's a really long time. Are you going a long time between sharpenings? For a routine touchup sharpening 5 min is a more reasonable figure, even with a 3k. And even for a more significant sharpening (not with a lot of thinning though) it shouldn't take you much longer than that if you use the right stone.


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

ian said:


> That's a really long time. Are you going a long time between sharpenings? For a routine touchup sharpening 5 min is a more reasonable figure, even with a 3k. And even for a more significant sharpening (not with a lot of thinning though) it shouldn't take you much longer than that if you use the right stone.


Well I kinda just strop backwards on the Welsh slate and once just that doesn't give me the feel I want (through a potato straight down with no pressure) I just pull the stones out get the 3k/8k soaking and sit at it... Way I was taught by my Japanese master... 40 each side then 20, 10, 5, 2,2,2,2, 1 each 10 times and then up to the next stone usually though I get away with just doing 8k then the Welsh slate.


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

I'd work via feedback rather than counting strokes. It'll be much more consistent. Counting strokes is like trying to walk to the store blindfolded by remembering what steps you need to take. It might get you there, but you also might walk into a car, and it's more efficient to just look where you're going. Focus on raising an even burr that you can feel, then removing it. You'll never be able to minimize the amount of steel removed with your method, and you're less likely to get a consistent edge all along the length of the blade.


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## tcmx3 (Apr 14, 2021)

OP seems convinced he already knows everything @ian , afterall he's got an answer to why every piece of advice he's been given he doesnt like is wrong.


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

ian said:


> I'd work via feedback rather than counting strokes. It'll be much more consistent. Counting strokes is like trying to walk to the store blindfolded by remembering what steps you need to take. It might get you there, but you also might walk into a car, and it's more efficient to just look where you're going. Focus on raising an even burr that you can feel, then removing it. You'll never be able to minimize the amount of steel removed with your method, and you're less likely to get a consistent edge all along the length of the blade.


I do get a good edge but I definitely find the very tip is usually the least sharp part... Still cuts paper and the likes but not as sharp as the middle and heel... Partially why I'm joining the santoku gang with the TF Denka 180... Ordering direct from TF so I'm thinking I'll get a good one.. He's got nothing to hide behind it's been ordered to be finished like the maboroshi without the ku so he will be making me a nice fresh one says Gaku take a month to make and ship... Buying it in June and I'm thinking it needs a nice pal in a good stone and maybe a custom handle... Well if I can find a bloody UK handle guy!


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Apr 14, 2021)

0.02 x 4 = 0.08 + Tax incoming



tcmx3 said:


> are you trying to sharpen anything other than just the apex with these stones? a 3k/8k combo and one of these isnt going to cut it for that. not even close. in fact, if the knife ever dulls even doing the apex with that wont cut it. youre not going to make meaningful progress on 65+ hrc TF steel with a 3k.
> 
> furthermore you cant compare what the very hard carbon aogami super edge feels like off a stone to what a wusthof does.



TF AS sharpens like a dream - it's been a while since I've needed to take it down below 3k, and touch ups take me <5 mins. If that's the suehiro 3k/8k setup with the tan/yellow ouka 3k stone (my favorite mid grit) you're chilling if you're on top of maintenance. All bets are off if it's some cheapo chinese stone tho.



ian said:


> If you're just sharpening edges, there's no reason at all to get a stone that has anything to do with jnats. Just get a Shapton Glass 4k or a Gesshin 4k. You're never going to get a better gyuto edge than those, probably. (I only have the Gesshin, but people I respect like the Glass too in that grit.) At some point you'll want a 1k and/or a 500, but just get one of the 4k's and when you need a lower grit stone you'll know it, because you'll be fed up with spending time on higher grit stones. That said, the Gesshin is stupid fast for a 4k.



He already has a 3k, what good would a 4k do for him?



ian said:


> Oh, if you're actually planning to thin and such, you should immediately get some lower grit stones.
> 
> Personally, I think that if you have to put music on and go to work for a while for a routine sharpening, you should be using a lower grit stone.



Coarse stones are mostly garbage unless you need to use them a lot and really prefer stones, +1 for sandpaper. If he just needs to necromance an edge back from the dead from time to time his flattening plate should do the trick. Although, an SG500 => 3k => 8k progression would be nice.

Plus, OP shouldn't be letting their edge get this dull IMO. Or their sharpening technique is inefficient.



branwell said:


> I haven't used the stones you have so cant compare, but I do have an Arashiyama 6K which is one of the natural synthetic blends and it ended up being one of my least used finishers.
> I love the idea of blending synthetics and naturals and thought it would be the killer app, but as it turns out, its like any other stone. Works for some, doesn't work for others.
> 
> My advice if you want to go down the waterstone rabbit hole is to be open minded and try everything until you find stones you like. If money is an issue, you can trade ( there is a buy trade sell forum on this board ). I'm sure there is something local in Scotland.



Arashiyama is nice for polishing stainless clad knives. I don't like resinoid soakers due to the cracking risk. OP - Don't worry about using JNAT dust in stones - it's probably a marketing gimmick. If you want a koppa, just pick one up from JNS.


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> 0.02 x 4 = 0.08 + Tax incoming
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The wustoff I'm not sure where its made but it's blue on the 3k and white on the 8k seems quite gritty on 8k though in use.. I haven't needed a lower grit stone in the 6-7 years I've been sharpening but I don't beat the knives or chip them and they're still printer paper sharp when I resharpen them... My master sharpened his knives every single day I go every day a stripping on the slate and a proper sharpen maybe every 6 weeks... I have things to learn and I know that however I do achieve results and I'm taking on board what everyone's saying.. More than one way of doing everything at the end of the day and I'm looking to improve my skill set part of that being with new stones.. As I'm after as good an edge as I can get with the TF once it's here. The work I do mainly is cutting up fish, meat and softer veg but I also task my knives to cutting bread, apples, harder veg


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## tcmx3 (Apr 14, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> TF AS sharpens like a dream - it's been a while since I've needed to take it down below 3k, and touch ups take me <5 mins. If that's the suehiro 3k/8k setup with the tan/yellow ouka 3k stone (my favorite mid grit) you're chilling if you're on top of maintenance. All bets are off if it's some cheapo chinese stone tho.



you know it's really weird but I feel like all good steel "sharpens like a dream" when you have the proper equipment and technique (the OP has neither, btw), unless we're talking about ultra wear resistant steels like k390.

course stones are bad? "dont let your edge get dull" as a substitute for being fully equipped to deal with the problem? I strongly disagree with these premises. 

but if there's one thing I will say is that this thread is not helping my bias about the sort of people who are into TF knives.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Apr 14, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> course stones are bad? "dont let your edge get dull" as a substitute for being fully equipped to deal with the problem? I strongly disagree with these premises.



You don't need a coarse stone to sharpen an edge for regular maintenance. Usually, you need a coarse stone to cut a new bevel.

If you don't need to do that often, and you don't thin often, my view is that you're better off buying a few sheets of nice sandpaper for $10 or just using an atoma to cut the bevel before moving up in grit.

Sandpaper costs less and doesn't dish either, which is why I like it a lot better than coarse stones.

Secondly, letting the knife get incredibly dull and then having to bring it back on coarse stones sounds inefficient to me. I think OP would save steel and time if he maintained his edge more regularly - plus he'd have a sharper edge in his hands.


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

This is what I call a knife that needs to be sharpened I don't know what tc is doing with his blade perhaps using them as an axe but I take care of mine and haven't needed a lower grit this knife hasn't been sharpened in 5 weeks it's used daily and only stopped 10 times each side daily on slate... Tonight I will be sharpening it as I find it to have dulled below where I like it to be and I will give what Ian said a lot of thought when I sharpen it and instead of counting strokes go with feel and check for a burr to be equal I'm here to learn I don't know how tc can't seem to see that I'm saying what I do and when I do it as to hear how I can add or change what I do myself as to how I was trained. Never the less I'll be sharpening this knife later and I will take into my thoughts everything Ian has said and I appreciate his time and his knowledge. I also thank you for letting me know your luck and experience with the TF and stone grit


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

ChefDan96 said:


> This is what I call a knife that needs to be sharpened I don't know what tc is doing with his blade perhaps using them as an axe but I take care of mine and haven't needed a lower grit this knife hasn't been sharpened in 5 weeks it's used daily and only stopped 10 times each side daily on slate... Tonight I will be sharpening it as I find it to have dulled below where I like it to be and I will give what Ian said a lot of thought when I sharpen it and instead of counting strokes go with feel and check for a burr to be equal I'm here to learn I don't know how tc can't seem to see that I'm saying what I do and when I do it as to hear how I can add or change what I do myself as to how I was trained. Never the less I'll be sharpening this knife later and I will take into my thoughts everything Ian has said and I appreciate his time and his knowledge. I also thank you for letting me know your luck and experience with the TF and stone grit


I'm not sure why it's not playing but my knife dull push cuts magazine paper I never let it dull down to the point it needs restoration... Uploaded it on YouTube.. This to me is dulled and its what I would normally spend half an hour to 45 minutes bringing back up to scratch.


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

ChefDan96 said:


> I'm not sure why it's not playing but my knife dull push cuts magazine paper I never let it dull down to the point it needs restoration



In that case, you're probably removing way more steel than you need to if you're spending 30 min on it. Also, problems at the heel and tip are exactly one problem that is likely to arise with your method. If you actually pay attention to raising a burr that's even along the entire edge, you will not have this problem, because if you notice there's no burr at the tip, you'll then correct it.



nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> You don't need a coarse stone to sharpen an edge for regular maintenance. Usually, you need a coarse stone to cut a new bevel.
> 
> If you don't need to do that often, and you don't thin often, my view is that you're better off buying a few sheets of nice sandpaper for $10 or just using an atoma to cut the bevel before moving up in grit.
> 
> ...



FWIW, I strongly prefer the feedback of coarse stones to sandpaper at the mid-coarse grit. Sandpaper's great for sub 200 grit when you're just trying to remove a lot of steel fast and don't care about feedback or anything.

Edit: I suggested the two 4k's because the whole reason for the OP's post is that he wants to make sure he has a killer edge on his gyutos and is concerned his Wusthof stone isn't good enough. I don't know anything about the Wusthof stone, but I know that those 4ks are great.


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

ian said:


> In that case, you're probably removing way more steel than you need to if you're spending 30 min on it. Also, problems at the heel and tip are exactly one problem that is likely to arise with your method. If you actually pay attention to raising a burr that's even along the entire edge, you will not have this problem, because if you notice there's no burr at the tip, you'll then correct it.
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, I strongly prefer the feedback of coarse stones to sandpaper at the mid-coarse grit. Sandpaper's great for sub 200 grit when you're just trying to remove steel fast and don't care about feedback or anything.


See that's what I'm here for I never got told anything about the burr off my master I knew it was there but never got told to feel for it he always just said repetition keeping it equal and tbh he goes 100-80-60-40-20-10 on his own crazy bastard push cuts silk  I have a nice range I like to sit in with mine which perhaps is still sharpening too much because I have had other chefs cut something with a knife I have that I thinks too dull to my liking and they have said to me it's sharp enough to split hairs... At the end of the day we all like what we like sharpness wise but definitely thank you for your feedback I'll have a good feel for a burr to be equal throughout the blade this time


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## Lars (Apr 14, 2021)

I don't know what all the fuss is about, but this thread made me put on Elvis '68 NBC TV Special..


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

Lars said:


> I don't know what all the fuss is about, but this thread made me put on Elvis '68 NBC TV Special..


Can't beat a bit of Elvis


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## M1k3 (Apr 14, 2021)

ChefDan96 said:


> Something I find my Welsh slate I have to be a bit careful of it can give me some tooth but it can also go so damn smooth that you can't cut tomato or even newspaper.


Sounds like a rounded edge, not over polished.


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## TB_London (Apr 14, 2021)

If you are just sharpening at the apex seems like a decent 5k and a strop would keep the edges where you want.
If you’re maintaining geometry I’d add a 500ish and a 1k. Will speed it up considerably.


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

You know, as a side remark, something about rounded edges kind of confuses me. How is it possible to really produce a rounded edge with a stone? As long as you never raise your angle more than 20 degrees on each side, and you hit every part of the edge at some point, you are guaranteed to have an at most 40 degree apex at every point along the edge. I mean, maybe slurry or severely nonflat stones can cause problems and make the edge more rounded, or metal can build up at the edge in the form of a burr and you can not remove it correctly. I just see people (not @M1k3) blaming a wobbly hand for a rounded edge, and I don’t see how that’s related. In some sense, the above is why freehand sharpening works at all, and why we don’t all need to use jigs. I mean, wobbling is bad for other reasons, since you want the geometry behind the edge to be consistent, and you don’t want to be hitting the edge more in one part of the blade than another, f’ing up the profile, and it probably makes sharpening more efficient if you don’t wobble, but I don’t think it causes rounded edges. Or maybe there’s some other relationship I’m missing.


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## KingShapton (Apr 14, 2021)

ChefDan96 said:


> Something I find my Welsh slate I have to be a bit careful of it can give me some tooth but it can also go so damn smooth that you can't cut tomato or even newspaper.


I suspect your purple welsh slate is a purple Llyn Melynllyn ?!

In that case I know your problem, I own this stone myself. Do you have a nagura for this stone? Alternatively, you can create a bit of slurry / mud on the stone with a diamond plate.

If it's a purple llyn melynllyn then only use the stone with slurry / mud. Without it, the stone polishes too much and creates a sharpness without bite


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

Sharpened both my main blades up doing what you said Ian and got both done in about 25 minutes  the tips never been better even when new made me notice there was a bit of a bulge that needed ground down a bit... Both now going through a carrot at just knife weight and a push forward  did notice though the blue #1 is a damn sight smoother and sharper than the harder thinner sg2


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## ChefDan96 (Apr 14, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> I suspect your purple welsh slate is a purple Llyn Melynllyn ?!
> 
> In that case I know your problem, I own this stone myself. Do you have a nagura for this stone? Alternatively, you can create a bit of slurry / mud on the stone with a diamond plate.
> 
> If it's a purple llyn melynllyn then only use the stone with slurry / mud. Without it, the stone polishes too much and creates a sharpness without bite


That's exactly the stone and yep you're on the money the knife wont go through a tomato if I go real well on it but if I cut though carrots and that then it'll go through the tomato definitely a balance and yep I've got the nagura with it.. Never thought to make the slurry I was always told it would give a worse edge


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## TB_London (Apr 14, 2021)

Those slates are just so slow though.....


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## M1k3 (Apr 14, 2021)

ian said:


> You know, as a side remark, something about rounded edges kind of confuses me. How is it possible to really produce a rounded edge with a stone? As long as you never raise your angle more than 20 degrees on each side, and you hit every part of the edge at some point, you are guaranteed to have an at most 40 degree apex at every point along the edge. I mean, maybe slurry or severely nonflat stones can cause problems and make the edge more rounded, or metal can build up at the edge in the form of a burr and you can not remove it correctly. I just see people (not @M1k3) blaming a wobbly hand for a rounded edge, and I don’t see how that’s related. In some sense, the above is why freehand sharpening works at all, and why we don’t all need to use jigs. I mean, wobbling is bad for other reasons, since you want the geometry behind the edge to be consistent, and you don’t want to be hitting the edge more in one part of the blade than another, f’ing up the profile, and it probably makes sharpening more efficient if you don’t wobble, but I don’t think it causes rounded edges. Or maybe there’s some other relationship I’m missing.


Maybe 'rounded' isn't the best term for me to use. But not being able to slice paper at any grit sounds like the apex isn't fully formed. Or leftover burr.


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Maybe 'rounded' isn't the best term for me to use. But not being able to slice paper at any grit sounds like the apex isn't fully formed. Or leftover burr.



or maybe I am a mess of house hunting anxiety and I’m expressing it by being anal about terminology on the internet.


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## ModRQC (Apr 14, 2021)

Even sharpening on a sphere wouldn't have a chance to round the edge. Either the edge makes contact or it doesn't - and at that, either a long consistent segment, or just a short one, or just a tiny point along, is the difference between a flat surface and a "dished" or uneven one - or a stupidly rounded one.

But that's considering even angle. If someone has really really poor angle consistency, then I guess theoretically he could round the edge by alternating enough between a lot of closely grouped angles...  

Just to feed the technical but futile discussion.

I guess "plateau'd" is something more likely to happen - apex killed by a "slip" to an obtuse angle, apex never formed because the angle is too low.


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## Pie (Apr 14, 2021)

My “rounded” are generally a result of me interrupting the process halfway through and restarting at a new, slightly different angle. You can easily see it on the low grits but after polishing you get rounded reflections instead of straight cut ones. This also happens when I change stones and am so eager to hit the apex that I subconsciously increase the angle.

Tldr - crappy angle control “rounds” my secondary bevels.


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## Bigbbaillie (Apr 14, 2021)

ChefDan96 said:


> This to me is dulled and its what I would normally spend half an hour to 45 minutes bringing back up to scratch.


If you are spending 30-45 minutes to sharpen a knife that is already sharp enough to cut newspaper you should definitely buy a 500-1000 grit stone. Honestly you are just wasting your time if you don't.

I can breadknife a knife on a 120 grit stone until its completely dull (won't cut paper) and bring it back to razor sharp easily within 5-10 minutes (generous estimate) using a sg500 or sg1000 paired with a ~2k or higher finishing stone. Think about how much time you will save over the years for an investment of only $40-$50.

You gotta be kidding yourself if you think you should be buying a Denka without having a lower mid-grit stone already. Time is way more valuable and important than shiny new knives. That's my opinion at least.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 14, 2021)

For "rounded edges" from a "wobbly hand", I get it the idea. Basically meaning that if you don't hold a pretty consistent angle you can round over the edge. It would different all along the edge and on both sides though so not sure "rounded" is the best descriptor but I get it. 

I generally say one can crush the apex if they're inconsistent. It doesn't take much and the thinner and finer the edge, the more susceptible it will be. Crushing the apex I think is most likely to happen during the deburring strokes, especially edge leading.

Either that or you just flat don't achieve a proper apex along the entire blade due to the randomness of the "wobbly hand".

Counting strokes is pointless. If one wants to count thinning strokes to help symmetry, ok, but for edge sharpening it has no place and @ian 's explanation is excellent.

Time to sharpen... I've always struggled with this to some degree. There's so many factors at play. I will say, without a doubt, that the more time you spend on the stones, the more opportunity you have to screw things up. The goal should always be the minimum time necessary to achieve *proper apexing*. I think time spent sharpening should be a gauge and used with other information. I again agree with Ian here in saying 30-35 min's for edge maintenance is too much. I'm not as much a fan of saying I can take a spoon to shaving sharp in five minutes type thing. I mean I get it, I understand it is presented for context, I just get wishy washy on it.

I think it can cause undo stress for the sharpener trying to be open and evaluate their technique and learn. The, "holy crap this is taking me 15mins and people say that's waaaay too long" type deal. I can say in full disclosure, there are instances when I can't do it. Things won't gel for whatever reasons and I find myself just being off. When it happens, I need to assess things. Is it just a spot? Am I rushing or not paying attention? Did I already crush my edge and need to regroup and maybe drop down? Am I flustered and just need to walk away and come back another day? Sometimes, I can just evaluate and get back to it and finish nicely. That may be 20 or even 30 min's. Other times, I can tell 5-10mns in that I just need to stop and come back later. But in all cases it isn't really the time so much as the effort.

I don't like to pay much attention to the clock any more. I just like the experience to tell me. I can tell when I've been going for a bit and things aren't working.

I know that's long-fingered and maybe semantics, I just hate to see folks setting time goals because they think that's a metric. Just focus on the edge. Let the edge guide you.


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> For "rounded edges" from a "wobbly hand", I get it the idea. Basically meaning that if you don't hold a pretty consistent angle you can round over the edge. It would different all along the edge and on both sides though so not sure "rounded" is the best descriptor but I get it.



Thing is, you're not really rounding the actual apex by doing that, you're convexing behind the edge. As long as your angle never exceeds 20 degrees, say, you'll always have an acute apex (given that you do hit it at some point when you sharpen), it's just that the bevel behind it will be flat if your angle is constant vs convexed if you wobble. Anyway, that's at least the point I was making.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 14, 2021)

ian said:


> Thing is, you're not really rounding the actual apex by doing that, you're convexing behind the edge. As long as your angle never exceeds 20 degrees, say, you'll always have an acute apex (given that you do hit it at some point when you sharpen), it's just that the bevel behind it will be flat if your angle is constant vs convexed if you wobble. Anyway, that's at least the point I was making.



Ah. Got it this time. I wasn't considering the max angle.

Bear with me here... If the apex is at say 15 degrees and you wobble around from 15-20 there will be "rounded" spots though yeah? Wouldn't you be "rolling" the apex once you exceed that 15? Honestly not trying to argue semantics. I think it is interesting.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 14, 2021)

Maybe time for one of these cheat gadgets






Amazon.com: Naniwa QX-0010 Blade Angle Guide for Sharpening Stone : Tools & Home Improvement


Amazon.com: Naniwa QX-0010 Blade Angle Guide for Sharpening Stone : Tools & Home Improvement



www.amazon.com


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## ian (Apr 14, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Ah. Got it this time. I wasn't considering the max angle.
> 
> Bear with me here... If the apex is at say 15 degrees and you wobble around from 15-20 there will be "rounded" spots though yeah? Wouldn't you be "rolling" the apex once you exceed that 15? Honestly not trying to argue semantics. I think it is interesting.



Heh, to roll or not to roll. That is.. no, wait, the question is _what _is to roll. Or rolling. Rolling rolling.

Idk what one wants to call it. You'd get an edge that's a little more acute some places, less acute other places. It's hurting my brain trying to figure out every way in which an edge could be suboptimal, and every way in which one could produce such an edge.


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 14, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Bear with me here... If the apex is at say 15 degrees and you wobble around from 15-20 there will be "rounded" spots though yeah? Wouldn't you be "rolling" the apex once you exceed that 15? Honestly not trying to argue semantics. I think it is interesting.



The illustrations I made here might help the conversation:






How To - Easier freehand sharpening


Here I describe and illustrate what I propose as an easier approach to freehand sharpening—especially for beginners who will have trouble holding a consistent angle—compared to the "textbook" advice to follow the factory edge angle with every grit. I prepared this for @AlexSav but I am posting...




www.bladeforums.com


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## Pie (Apr 15, 2021)

ian said:


> Thing is, you're not really rounding the actual apex by doing that, you're convexing behind the edge. As long as your angle never exceeds 20 degrees, say, you'll always have an acute apex (given that you do hit it at some point when you sharpen), it's just that the bevel behind it will be flat if your angle is constant vs convexed if you wobble. Anyway, that's at least the point I was making.



this is a most excellent post.


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## stringer (Apr 15, 2021)

ian said:


> You know, as a side remark, something about rounded edges kind of confuses me. How is it possible to really produce a rounded edge with a stone? As long as you never raise your angle more than 20 degrees on each side, and you hit every part of the edge at some point, you are guaranteed to have an at most 40 degree apex at every point along the edge. I mean, maybe slurry or severely nonflat stones can cause problems and make the edge more rounded, or metal can build up at the edge in the form of a burr and you can not remove it correctly. I just see people (not @M1k3) blaming a wobbly hand for a rounded edge, and I don’t see how that’s related. In some sense, the above is why freehand sharpening works at all, and why we don’t all need to use jigs. I mean, wobbling is bad for other reasons, since you want the geometry behind the edge to be consistent, and you don’t want to be hitting the edge more in one part of the blade than another, f’ing up the profile, and it probably makes sharpening more efficient if you don’t wobble, but I don’t think it causes rounded edges. Or maybe there’s some other relationship I’m missing.



I think that you are right. I haven't rounded an edge on a stone in many years by basically following this logic. And I get pretty aggressive with the high angle passes on fine grit synthetic stones.

I have noticed what I would call "rounded edges" on softer stainless when I over do convexing on the 1X30 slack wheel. But that is a completely different ballgame when that thing is moving 1600 feet per second (edit: 1600 feet per minute). The apex just melts.


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## ian (Apr 15, 2021)

stringer said:


> I think that you are right. I haven't rounded an edge on a stone in many years by basically following this logic. And I get pretty aggressive with the high angle passes on fine grit synthetic stones.
> 
> I have noticed what I would call "rounded edges" on softer stainless when I over do convexing on the 1X30 slack wheel. But that is a completely different ballgame when that thing is moving 1600 feet per second (edit: 1600 feet per minute). The apex just melts.



Melts, and burns. I have such a hard time not burning edges on my 1x30. Basically have to do 1 second full blade passes in order to not overheat the edge.


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## Luftmensch (Apr 15, 2021)

ian said:


> As long as you never raise your angle more than 20 degrees on each side





HumbleHomeCook said:


> If the apex is at say 15 degrees and you wobble around from 15-20 there will be "rounded" spots though yeah?



Hehe... why place a limit in either direction? Model the sharpening angle as a stochastic variable under some distribution. Lets choose a Gaussian because they are 'friendly' and say the mean is 20 degrees with a standard deviation of 1.25 degrees. That means approximately 68% of the work is done within +/- one standard deviation (1.25 degrees) of the mean. And approximately 95% of the work is done within +/- two standard deviations of the mean (from 17.5 and 22.5 degrees). Some of that will be 'rounding' (high angles) and some of that will be 'thinning' (low angles).

The better you get at honing, the smaller your standard deviation!  I suppose that means you will be doing less 'rounding' and 'thinning'.... and more... 'sharpening'...?


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## ian (Apr 15, 2021)




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## tcmx3 (Apr 15, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Hehe... why place a limit in either direction? Model the sharpening angle as a stochastic variable under some distribution. Lets choose a Gaussian because they are 'friendly' and say the mean is 20 degrees with a standard deviation of 1.25 degrees. That means approximately 68% of the work is done within +/- one standard deviation (1.25 degrees) of the mean. And approximately 95% of the work is done within +/- two standard deviations of the mean (from 17.5 and 22.5 degrees). Some of that will be 'rounding' (high angles) and some of that will be 'thinning' (low angles).
> 
> The better you get at honing, the smaller your standard deviation!  I suppose that means you will be doing less 'rounding' and 'thinning'.... and more... 'sharpening'...?



reviewer 2: paper does not cite _A Guide to Modeling Freehand Sharpening Under Normal Atmospheric Conditions _and is not novel research. Reject.


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## cotedupy (Apr 17, 2021)

Another conversation about slate eh? Count me in!

Though I'm sure I've done it to a million knives I don't really know what a rolled edge is or feels like, but... I have certainly used slates that give the kind of edge described; they can excel at certain 'sharpness tests', and be pants at others.

The reason for this, I think, is because of its form, and formation (pic attached). When you sharpen on slate you are sharpening on quartz that has been flattened parallel to the _layers_ of the slate during the metamorphic process. And flat quartz doesn't do a huge amount of cutting. You'd have thought you could get around this by cutting the face of a stone across layers, but often ime you can't do this. A lot of slate really is quite layered, and it'd chip and break up if you tried, it would also absorb a huge amount of water and feck up the stone.

The slates I've found that have the most cutting ability are ones in which you have the layers formed across the former bedding planes of the original mud. You're still sharpening on a single layer of slate, but across layers of the original deposits. A second pic attached, showing the wavy lines on the completely flat and dry surface of one of my stones, on the left. It has been flattened along a layer of slate, that was formed across the bedding planes.

But yeah - slates finish more refined than other stones of comparable grit ime. And I imagine the when you get to the mega-fine levels of some Welsh slates this is going to be really quite polished. Though as KS said - mud helps - release some of those bits of quartz and you're no longer sharpening just on flat stuff.

[This is all conjecture and extrapolation from what I've read and experienced. So may be wrong, and/or it may not apply to all slates.]


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## KingShapton (Apr 17, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Another conversation about slate eh? Count me in!
> 
> Though I'm sure I've done it to a million knives I don't really know what a rolled edge is or feels like, but... I have certainly used slates that give the kind of edge described; they can excel at certain 'sharpness tests', and be pants at others.
> 
> ...


Even if it's over the topic, the Dai's look very good!


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## Luftmensch (Apr 17, 2021)

<I just read the beginning of this thread in greater detail>

@ChefDan96,

There is no 'right' way to sharpen a knife. Many methods can get you the results you desire. That said, collective wisdom is a good shortcut for avoiding mistakes or unproductive behaviour.

I believe low-mid grits are indispensable in the kitchen and it is a good option to have proper low grit stones. In fact I will contend that if *I* had to choose only one stone it would probably be a low-mid grit like 800-1000. If I could only choose two stones... it might be a 400 and 3000. I don't find a _need_ for any more than 3000 in the kitchen.

Coarse stones can be misunderstood. True... their primary use is thinning, removing chips and reseting bevels. Why? Because they remove steel quickly. But that doesnt mean you only have to use them for those tasks. Coarse stones are actually far more versatile than high grit stones. You can get coarse grit stones to mimic high grit stones to some degree but not vice versa. It is about pressure control. In the right hands a coarse stone can produce an edge that is sharper than necessary for use in the kitchen.

Semantics becomes a quagmire... Maybe people associate coarse grit with 'coarse edge'... and to some degree that is true but not in others. If 'sharp' basically means forming a perfectly triangular apex, then it doesn't really matter what grit you choose. All grits are capable of abrading steel into that triangular apex. In that way, a coarse stone can get pretty much just as 'sharp' and fine stone. The difference is that coarse stones leaves deeper scratches - so the edge will be toothier. As you increase the grit, the teeth become smaller. If you want to be pedantic... then yes, you might might get a finer and more uniform apex at higher grits because the abrading grit is smaller. But you wont notice micrometer scale effects when cutting a potato... And you wont achieve those micrometer differences unless you are _very_ good at sharpening.

If it isn't clear... you don't have to use lots of pressure or many strokes on a coarse grit stone. That job that takes you 45 minutes on a 3000 might take you 2-5 minutes on a coarse-mid grit and 2-5 minutes on a 3000. Like I said earlier. There is no right way to sharpen if the end result is 'sharp'... 'better' or 'right' is a value judgement on what is important to you. Just know that you don't need to spend 45 minutes sharpening unless you want to.


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## KingShapton (Apr 17, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Coarse stones can be misunderstood. True... their primary use is thinning, removing chips and reseting bevels. Why? Because they remove steel quickly. But that doesnt mean you only have to use them for those tasks. Coarse stones are actually far more versatile than high grit stones. You can get coarse grit stones to mimic high grit stones to some degree but not vice versa. It is about pressure control. In the right hands a coarse stone can produce an edge that is sharper than necessary for use in the kitchen.


Absolutely true!!!!


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2021)

I use a medium-coarse not only for thinning behind the edge, but also for the primary bevel. Little pressure, just a few strokes. Depending on the steel, edge stability will benefit a lot. As for maintenance touch ups, I use Blue Belgian Brocken. A few strokes to revive the edge. Will work very long with a home user, before the edge needs some refreshing by a 2k. Only when that one doesn't work within again a few strokes it's time for a full sharpening again, starting at 400 or 500, followed by a Chosera 800 and ending by stropping and deburring at 3k.


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## cotedupy (Apr 17, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Even if it's over the topic, the Dai's look very good!



 The proper dai on the right is an example of @childermass 's excellent work. On the left is just me epoxy-ing my favourite slate onto a piece of Australian Cypress yesterday. Still looks nice tho! And a lot better to use as it's not massively thick.


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## childermass (Apr 17, 2021)

That piece of Australian Cypress looks really nice together with this slate.


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 17, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> And flat quartz doesn't do a huge amount of cutting. You'd have thought you could get around this by cutting the face of a stone across layers, but often ime you can't do this. A lot of slate really is quite layered, and it'd chip and break up if you tried, it would also absorb a huge amount of water and feck up the stone.



You've tried cutting slate across the layers with a diamond saw? Maybe it's a different kind of slate but I've seen "slate" floor tiles that appeared to have clean edges.


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## cotedupy (Apr 18, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> You've tried cutting slate across the layers with a diamond saw? Maybe it's a different kind of slate but I've seen "slate" floor tiles that appeared to have clean edges.



I've not tried that actually no. TBH most of what I know about slate as whetstones comes from personal experience, a few very knowledgable forum members, and in particular Henk Bos's writings. 

In the latter he identifies 7 steps in the formation of slate, and notes that it is only slates from stages 5, 6, and 7 that can be used for sharpening. Most of my stones come I think from stage 5 (the kind of slate that is used for roofing tiles), whereas stones from stage 6 or 7 have undergone longer metamorphic change. And I think they have less pronounced, less flaky, layering. I've certainly seen and used a couple of other slate stones like this, and I imagine they would be suitable for the kind of cutting you mention.

I do happen to live across the road from a stone mason, and I've been meaning for a while to go say hello, and ask him some questions about this kind of thing. Must remember to do that next week...


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