# Best steel for a kitchen knife blade?



## RonB (Nov 6, 2018)

OK - that is a dumb question because there are a lot of factors in choosing a steel. BUT - it got you to look... 

Let me break it down several ways:

1 - If your only consideration was sharpness, what steel would you choose?

2 - If you were concerned about sharpness and durability, (that would mean chipping for this non pro), what steel?

3 - And what steel that best meets 2 above, but with corrosion resistance?

Answer any of, or all of, the three questions and add an explanation if you'd like. Please indicate which question you are answering if you decide to play. 

Thanx ~ Ron


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## Barmoley (Nov 6, 2018)

Since you know it is a dumb question, I'll play

1. You need something relatively simple with small carbides and grain. White 1/2, 52100, 1095, SC125, SC145, AEB-L, etc seem to get very sharp, so one of these or the like would be the one to get for ultimate sharpness.
2. For toughness, not chippy you need relatively low carbon, small carbides, small grain size, low volume of carbides. Larrin tested a bunch of steels and in his tests AEB-L was the toughest, so you probably want that.
3. AEB-L

So your answer the way the problem is set up is AEB-L, 13C26 and the like.


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## inferno (Nov 6, 2018)

1: Blue 2 / aogami 2

2: Blue 2 / aus 8 cryoed / aeb-l/13c26 cryoed

3: mac cryoed aus8. fwiw i also heard hattoris vg10 is good. I dont find vg10 chippy at all. and corrosion resistance is fairly good. quite easy to sharpen.

stainless dont get as sharp as carbons, a carbon you can bring up to 12k if you want and then it gets scary sharp. most stainless wont respond well above 2-3-4k somewhere depending on what steel it is and how its hardened.

Personally I'm not a really big fan of the powder steels, they only keep an edge marginally longer than correctly done lower grade SS but takes 10x longer to sharpen. they wont get any sharper either. usually the other way around.

for me the optimum stainless steel seems to have 0,6-1C, low Cr, a toughness promoter like Ni, a grainrefiner like V/W/Nb, and a carbide former on top of the Cr like V/W/Mo but not too much.. only like 1% or so.
Preferably hardened to at least 60hrc and should not feel smeary and soft on the stones.


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## inferno (Nov 6, 2018)

most mass produced AEB-L and 13c26 knives seems to use non optimal ht processes.


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## Barmoley (Nov 6, 2018)

inferno said:


> most mass produced AEB-L and 13c26 knives seems to use non optimal ht processes.



Even though, this could be true, heat treat was not part of the question. As such optimal heat treat is assumed, since bad heat treat can ruin any steel, it is not worth discussing when discussing steels. Once you pick a steel then you can discuss best heat treat for that steel.


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## Ruso (Nov 6, 2018)

I would pick a good HT!


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## Barmoley (Nov 6, 2018)

That was not the question.


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## RonB (Nov 6, 2018)

Thanx all for the replies. The reason I asked is that I am about to get my shop back since my BIL has moved out. However, some of his junk is still in the shop, and I will have to remove the carpet and linoleum, patch and seal the floor after he gets it all out. Then I will be able to move my woodworking equipment into the shop. 
I want to start making knives via stock removal. At age 71 I don't know how deep in this rabbit hole I want to go as far as forging goes, and I have bouts of tendinitis in both elbows from time to time. But I think I should be able to grind away without problems. 
If I enjoy making knives, I will be making some for friends and relatives, and none of them are pros, so ease of care will be important - thus the interest in corrosion resistance. 

Thanx ~ Ron

And if you still want to comment, please do so.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 6, 2018)

No comment on the steel, as Barmoley covered it very well, but if you haven't joined yet, there is a Facebook group, "Stock Removal Knifemaking" that you might find interesting: https://www.facebook.com/groups/490161238018699/


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## Interapid101 (Nov 6, 2018)

RonB said:


> Thanx all for the replies. The reason I asked is that I am about to get my shop back since my BIL has moved out. However, some of his junk is still in the shop, and I will have to remove the carpet and linoleum, patch and seal the floor after he gets it all out. Then I will be able to move my woodworking equipment into the shop.
> I want to start making knives via stock removal. At age 71 I don't know how deep in this rabbit hole I want to go as far as forging goes, and I have bouts of tendinitis in both elbows from time to time. But I think I should be able to grind away without problems.
> If I enjoy making knives, I will be making some for friends and relatives, and none of them are pros, so ease of care will be important - thus the interest in corrosion resistance.
> 
> ...





RonB said:


> Thanx all for the replies. The reason I asked is that I am about to get my shop back since my BIL has moved out. However, some of his junk is still in the shop, and I will have to remove the carpet and linoleum, patch and seal the floor after he gets it all out. Then I will be able to move my woodworking equipment into the shop.
> I want to start making knives via stock removal. At age 71 I don't know how deep in this rabbit hole I want to go as far as forging goes, and I have bouts of tendinitis in both elbows from time to time. But I think I should be able to grind away without problems.
> If I enjoy making knives, I will be making some for friends and relatives, and none of them are pros, so ease of care will be important - thus the interest in corrosion resistance.
> 
> ...



IME grinding bothers my carpal tunnel more than moving steel under a hammer. But I have weak forearms 
Try before you buy.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 7, 2018)

AEBL has short edge retention if its soft


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## pennman (Nov 7, 2018)

AEBL is crap for chef knives. Avoid it at all costs. It’s for straight razors. Chippy, poor edge retention, will pit and rust. It’s stain resistant. Not stainless. Go with CPM 154CM or XHP.


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## CB1968 (Nov 7, 2018)

pennman said:


> AEBL is crap for chef knives. Avoid it at all costs. It’s for straight razors. Chippy, poor edge retention, will pit and rust. It’s stain resistant. Not stainless. Go with CPM 154CM or XHP.


Really? I have had some fantastic kitchen knives in AEB-L, Devin Thomas and Marko Tsourkan both make great kitchen knives in AEB-L, they weren't in the slightest bit chippy, edge retention was good and certainly didn't pit or rust.


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## Anton (Nov 7, 2018)

Just use the damn knife, don’t overthink it


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## LucasFur (Nov 7, 2018)

Barmoley did a great response. 

I have comfortably shaven my face with all sorts of steels so pure sharpness is a tough one. My personal favourite steel is R2 at the moment. Phrasing the questions the way you did I think will also get different responses depending on people's experiences and their experience levels. 

Reading your reasoning and why your asking I would say you should ask. 
"What's the easiest stainless to work with?"


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## Barmoley (Nov 7, 2018)

CB1968 said:


> Really? I have had some fantastic kitchen knives in AEB-L, Devin Thomas and Marko Tsourkan both make great kitchen knives in AEB-L, they weren't in the slightest bit chippy, edge retention was good and certainly didn't pit or rust.



You beat me to it I was going to mention the same two makers. Had excellent experience with both DT ITK and Marko suji. Limited experience so not going to argue, but pretty harsh words that contradict my experience.

Maybe Larrin could chime in, if AEB-L can be heat treated in such a way that more chromium carbides are produced creating less free chromium in solution, making the steel brittle and not stainless. It doesn’t have a lot of carbon to create large volume of carbides, but maybe.


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## Christian Trajkovski (Nov 7, 2018)

Damasteel, stainless and good looks to if your are into that  They also have normal stainless RWL 34 and a nitrogen steel Nitrobe77


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## RDalman (Nov 7, 2018)

Yes they pretty much all get sharp. Ht is key like have been mentioned. If you're going to send out rather than get your own kiln setup, you will have the best results (and best time working with it imo) with the powdersteels. Probably cpm154 is a good choice for you being in the US


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## banjo1071 (Nov 7, 2018)

1.2563 Hands down
Or PM...


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## banjo1071 (Nov 7, 2018)

Sorry 1.2562


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## RDalman (Nov 7, 2018)

banjo1071 said:


> Sorry 1.2562


That's not stainless sadly


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## Benuser (Nov 7, 2018)

Same steel may show very different properties depending of the HT. Not always a question of good or bad. Some makers want to enhance some qualities.


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## Eloh (Nov 7, 2018)

Something like HAP40 would be my pick, easy enough to sharpen if the grind is thin, great edge retention and pretty much stainresistant. 

At the end of the day it depends if you value edge retention over ease of sharpening or vice versa. 

Something like R2 would probably be a good compromise for most people


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## Chef Doom (Nov 7, 2018)

I would use the fake meteorite that seems to be so popular.


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## XooMG (Nov 7, 2018)

I don't know. Maybe 5160.


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## RDalman (Nov 7, 2018)

XooMG said:


> I don't know. Maybe 5160.


Probably good if you want to sharpen on taiwanese dinosaur poop.


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## Larrin (Nov 7, 2018)

pennman said:


> AEBL is crap for chef knives. Avoid it at all costs. It’s for straight razors. Chippy, poor edge retention, will pit and rust. It’s stain resistant. Not stainless. Go with CPM 154CM or XHP.


AEB-L is much tougher than CPM-154 or XHP and none of those three are in the super corrosion resistance category. It can’t be called chippy. They are all adequate for corrosion resistance.


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

Larrin said:


> AEB-L is much tougher than CPM-154 or XHP and none of those three are in the super corrosion resistance category. It can’t be called chippy. They are all adequate for corrosion resistance.


I have a great deal of respect for you and the information on your website. I learn quite a bit. But in the real world, my daily AEBL knives I use and have provided to professional chefs, AEBL is crap. Doesn’t hold an edge through one autopsy, requires sharpening every 45 -60 min, and will look like a hacksaw blade after one service in a pro kitchen. All cutting was done on poly boards by me and professional chefs. The only AEBL blades that performed well were ones where the chef habitually used a chef steel throughout service and kept the blade sharp continually. Also blades did well in the hands of the extremely casual user. But they liked knives from Bed, Bath, and Beyond. 

I won’t use it. I won’t buy knives made with it. I and multiple other excellent knife makers won’t use it. I know Devin Thomas uses it and people like it. 

I’m sure you have plenty of graphs, charts, and experimental observations about how I’m wrong, but my experience and observation from my knives and those of my chefs is waaaay Different. 

When I switched from AEBL to XHP, my steel costs doubled, but I did not change my prices to my customers. I just didn’t want to put out any more knives in what I felt was mediocre steel. 

And nothing about what I have said with regard to AEBL use in knives is my opinion about using AEBL for straight razors, it’s intended market.


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## Benuser (Nov 8, 2018)

Perhaps we shouldn't look for a stainless that has the properties we like about carbons.
Relatively large but uniformly distributed carbides can be found in 19C27 as used by Misono in the UX-10 series. Not the most funny to sharpen, but leaving quite some bite after the first dulling.
Another I like quite a bit is SG2/R2 by Ryusen Blazen. Easy sharpening. Keep it thin behind the edge and let the edge itself be rather robust.
​


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## Barmoley (Nov 8, 2018)

pennman said:


> I have a great deal of respect for you and the information on your website. I learn quite a bit. But in the real world, my daily AEBL knives I use and have provided to professional chefs, AEBL is crap. Doesn’t hold an edge through one autopsy, requires sharpening every 45 -60 min, and will look like a hacksaw blade after one service in a pro kitchen. All cutting was done on poly boards by me and professional chefs. The only AEBL blades that performed well were ones where the chef habitually used a chef steel throughout service and kept the blade sharp continually. Also blades did well in the hands of the extremely casual user. But they liked knives from Bed, Bath, and Beyond.
> 
> I won’t use it. I won’t buy knives made with it. I and multiple other excellent knife makers won’t use it. I know Devin Thomas uses it and people like it.
> 
> ...



Not questioning your observations and experience with your knives, clearly you are seeing what you are seeing. This is just so strange and contrary to experience of many others. There are many great smiths and pro cooks using AEB-L and this is the first time I see a complaint about it being fragile and chippy. Some people complain that it doesn't hold an edge well due to low wear resistance, but not being tough hasn't been a complaint I've read about. Anyone else has seen complaints of AEB-L being chippy? XHP should hold an edge better where wear resistance is concerned, but how can it be tougher given optimal heat treat for both. Anyone has an explanation?


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## Larrin (Nov 8, 2018)

As long as we are trading anecdotes, I have made AEB-L kitchen knives myself. I dropped them point first into concrete. I cut with them. I sold them. No chipping.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 8, 2018)

I suspect poor heat treatment and/or sharpening at too acute an angle may be the cause of pennman's experience with AEB-L. I've used knives made from AEB-L from Devin, Marko, Cris Anderson, and Ian Rogers and have never seen any of the problems he cites.


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> Not questioning your observations and experience with your knives, clearly you are seeing what you are seeing. This is just so strange and contrary to experience of many others. There are many great smiths and pro cooks using AEB-L and this is the first time I see a complaint about it being fragile and chippy. Some people complain that it doesn't hold an edge well due to low wear resistance, but not being tough hasn't been a complaint I've read about. Anyone else has seen complaints of AEB-L being chippy? XHP should hold an edge better where wear resistance is concerned, but how can it be tougher given optimal heat treat for both. Anyone has an explanation?



Toughness is not necessary for a chef knife (unless you intend on tossing it across your kitchen at one of your line cooks). It’s all wear resistance. Chef knives are for rubbing along their long axis on a cutting board. Not chopping wood or being used as a pry bar. Strength, toughness, ductility, etc as properties of steel are not that important in terms of chef knives that are used as chef knives. Not opening cans of tomatoes or trying to disarticulate the hind quarter of a cow. I use different steels for those applications.


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## Larrin (Nov 8, 2018)

pennman said:


> Toughness is not necessary for a chef knife (unless you intend on tossing it across your kitchen at one of your line cooks). It’s all wear resistance. Chef knives are for rubbing along their long axis on a cutting board. Not chopping wood or being used as a pry bar. Strength, toughness, ductility, etc as properties of steel are not that important in terms of chef knives that are used as chef knives. Not opening cans of tomatoes or trying to disarticulate the hind quarter of a cow. I use different steels for those applications.


You can't say that toughness isn't necessary in a kitchen knife while also complaining about chipping.


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## Benuser (Nov 8, 2018)

Perhaps a breaking burr that is erroneously taken for a chip?


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## Interapid101 (Nov 8, 2018)

I predict this thread will go ten pages and the last post will be in 2021.


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## inferno (Nov 8, 2018)

Even 12c27 can chip out. My newest Mora did just that. Its even tougher than 13c26.


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## McMan (Nov 8, 2018)

pennman said:


> I have a great deal of respect for you and the information on your website. I learn quite a bit. But in the real world, my daily AEBL knives I use and have provided to professional chefs, AEBL is crap. Doesn’t hold an edge through one autopsy, requires sharpening every 45 -60 min, and will look like a hacksaw blade after one service in a pro kitchen. All cutting was done on poly boards by me and professional chefs. The only AEBL blades that performed well were ones where the chef habitually used a chef steel throughout service and kept the blade sharp continually. Also blades did well in the hands of the extremely casual user. But they liked knives from Bed, Bath, and Beyond.
> 
> I won’t use it. I won’t buy knives made with it. I and multiple other excellent knife makers won’t use it. I know Devin Thomas uses it and people like it.
> 
> ...



The point to start with and the conclusion left to draw is a classic:
It’s less about the steel; it’s more about a Maker’s treatment, HT, and grind.

In your experience, aebl has been chippy and weak. That Chef Joe and his buddies can turn aebl into “hacksaw blades” after a night of service, doesn’t tell us much about aebl as a steel… Instead, what this shows is that the knives they used in aebl chipped. Who made these knives?

Sure, plenty of people here don’t love aebl and for various reasons, but I haven’t seen reports from pros about it turning into a “hacksaw blade”. And there are plenty of pros here, the forum has been around for a while (including its earlier incarnation), and aebl was all the rage years ago, so if what you say about chipping was a common problem there would’ve been numerous reports about that and dating back years.

It seems to me the variable here is less the steel and more the maker.

We could add Tansu and Ealy to Pensacola Tiger’s list of DT, Marko, CJA, and Rogers. I’ve used knives in aebl from several of them, which have been excellent. Chipping was never a problem. These guys aren’t in the business of selling “crap” steel. Far from it.

Indeed, like Benuser pointed out:



Benuser said:


> Same steel may show very different properties depending of the HT. Not always a question of good or bad. Some makers want to enhance some qualities.



And Pensacola Tiger is spot-on:



Pensacola Tiger said:


> I suspect poor heat treatment and/or sharpening at too acute an angle may be the cause of pennman's experience with AEBL.


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## DevinT (Nov 8, 2018)

Looks like we have a troll here. AEB-L has been used in cutlery for over a hundred years. It’s a very good steel, if you know what you’re doing. 

Hoss


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## chefcomesback (Nov 8, 2018)

Bad heat treatment can make any steel chippy , higher austenizing temperatures combined with very high tempering will make stainless less corrosion and not much stain resistant. Only down side of Aebl i found is that it may warp during cryo if you don’t have any precautions. If you know what you are doing it’s a very good knife steel


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

Yes boss, I’m a troll. A troll with a 2x72” grinder and several hundred people in the wait list for my knives. 



DevinT said:


> Looks like we have a troll here. AEB-L has been used in cutlery for over a hundred years. It’s a very good steel, if you know what you’re doing.
> 
> Hoss


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## Ruso (Nov 8, 2018)

Almost a full circle, back to HT 

Speaking of AEBL - I have a Takayuki Grand Chef in AEBL and it's mediocre* at best. But it's aint chippy for sure. 

*I am not implying that AEBL is mediocre, only that Takayuki's implementation of it is.


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

Ruso said:


> Almost a full circle, back to HT
> 
> Speaking of AEBL - I have a Takayuki Grand Chef in AEBL and it's mediocre* at best. But it's aint chippy for sure.
> 
> *I am not implying that AEBL is mediocre, only that Takayuki's implementation of it is.




It is .015” on the edge. Thick, so it is less likely to chip. But that’s the same thickness of a wusthoff as well. The performance is definitely mediocre.


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## DevinT (Nov 8, 2018)

pennman said:


> View attachment 44659
> View attachment 44660
> View attachment 44661
> View attachment 44662
> ...



I recommend that you be a little less argumentative around here. Congrats on your success. 

People who are loud and aggressive loose credibility. 

Hoss


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

DevinT said:


> I recommend that you be a little less argumentative around here. Congrats on your success.
> 
> People who are loud and aggressive loose credibility.
> 
> Hoss



I’m not tryin to be aggressive. I’m just voicing an unpopular sentiment that is based on experience as a knife maker, knife user, discussions with other makers, and customer feedback.


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## DevinT (Nov 8, 2018)

pennman said:


> View attachment 44668
> 
> 
> 
> It is .015” on the edge. Thick, so it is less likely to chip. But that’s the same thickness of a wusthoff as well. The performance is definitely mediocre.





pennman said:


> I’m not tryin to be aggressive. I’m just voicing an unpopular sentiment that is based on experience as a knife maker, knife user, discussions with other makers, and customer feedback.



A few years ago you posted on this forum that you had a knife made from aebl heat treated by Peters HT and said it was more wear resistant than S35vn.

Hoss


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

DevinT said:


> A few years ago you posted on this forum that you had a knife made from aebl heat treated by Peters HT and said it was more wear resistant than S35vn.
> 
> Hoss


You are correct. And that’s why I don’t use S35VN any more as well.


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## DevinT (Nov 8, 2018)

AEB-L is a medium wear resistant steel that is very keen and very tough. Some members here have been disappointed with it’s level of wear resistance, probably because of less than optimum heat treating. I have used aebl since 1989 and have found it to be a very good cutlery steel. If you place wear resistance as the most important quality of a steel, then aebl is not for you. It is a very balanced steel, wear resistance, toughness, corrosion resistance, keeness, ease of sharpening, cost, heat treatment, etc. 

Your experience with aebl is different than everyone else here. 

Hoss


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

DevinT said:


> AEB-L is a medium wear resistant steel that is very keen and very tough. Some members here have been disappointed with it’s level of wear resistance, probably because of less than optimum heat treating. I have used aebl since 1989 and have found it to be a very good cutlery steel. If you place wear resistance as the most important quality of a steel, then aebl is not for you. It is a very balanced steel, wear resistance, toughness, corrosion resistance, keeness, ease of sharpening, cost, heat treatment, etc.
> 
> Your experience with aebl is different than everyone else here.
> 
> Hoss


Correct. My experience is different than others’ HERE. But it is not unique. 

And I certainly do place wear resistance as the most important property of steel for chef knives. That’s why aogami super is better kitchen cutlery steel than white #1. Cruwear better than CPM 154CM. S110V better than ZDP-189.


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## DevinT (Nov 8, 2018)

pennman said:


> Correct. My experience is different than others’ HERE. But it is not unique.
> 
> And I certainly do place wear resistance as the most important property of steel for chef knives. That’s why aogami super is better kitchen cutlery steel than white #1. Cruwear better than CPM 154CM. S110V better than ZDP-189.



That’s why we can’t take you serious. 

Hoss


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## RonB (Nov 8, 2018)

Thanx all for continuing this discussion. I am learning from everyone. I did find the below linked info on the Knife Informer site today. I don't have enough knowledge to know if the info is accurate, but I did find it interesting:

https://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/


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## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 8, 2018)

RonB said:


> Thanx all for continuing this discussion. I am learning from everyone. I did find the below linked info on the Knife Informer site today. I don't have enough knowledge to know if the info is accurate, but I did find it interesting:
> 
> https://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/


ZKnives is a goldmine of information on knife steels: http://zknives.com


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

DevinT said:


> That’s why we can’t take you serious.
> 
> Hoss


I’m certain that anyone who has my high performance XHP, 20CV, M4, and S110V chef knives takes me VERY seriously.


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

RonB said:


> Thanx all for continuing this discussion. I am learning from everyone. I did find the below linked info on the Knife Informer site today. I don't have enough knowledge to know if the info is accurate, but I did find it interesting:
> 
> https://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/




13C26
EDGE RETENTION: 3 CORROSION RESISTANCE: 4EASE OF SHARPENING: 7
This is Sandvik’s version of the AEB-L steel, originally developed for razor blades. Close comparison to 440A steel with a higher carbon to chromium ratio making it generally a little harder and wearable at the expense of corrosion resistance. Still, in real world applications it’s difficult to tell them apart and they tend to perform very similarly. Sandvik later came out with 14C28N which is a slightly improved version of 13C26.


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## DevinT (Nov 8, 2018)

pennman said:


> 13C26
> EDGE RETENTION: 3 CORROSION RESISTANCE: 4EASE OF SHARPENING: 7
> This is Sandvik’s version of the AEB-L steel, originally developed for razor blades. Close comparison to 440A steel with a higher carbon to chromium ratio making it generally a little harder and wearable at the expense of corrosion resistance. Still, in real world applications it’s difficult to tell them apart and they tend to perform very similarly. Sandvik later came out with 14C28N which is a slightly improved version of 13C26.



Quoting someone else doesn’t make you smart or knowledgeable. 

I know what aebl will do and will not do. It’s a good steel. 

I don’t know you, my guess is that you haven’t been making knives for very long. 

Hoss


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

Larrin said:


> As long as we are trading anecdotes, I have made AEB-L kitchen knives myself. I dropped them point first into concrete. I cut with them. I sold them. No chipping.



I have dropped my Dexter Russel white plastic handle NSF $19.95 knives point first on tile floors and they didn’t chip or break the point. But they have the edge retention only slightly better than a sharpened credit card (that’s a bit hyperbolic, but you get the point [pun intended]).


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

DevinT said:


> Quoting someone else doesn’t make you smart or knowledgeable.
> 
> I know what aebl will do and will not do. It’s a good steel.
> 
> ...


That’s two personal attacks. What’s your point? Do you really think I will stop a single person from buying one of your knives?


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## DevinT (Nov 8, 2018)

pennman said:


> That’s two personal attacks. What’s your point? Do you really think I will stop a single person from buying one of your knives?



You keep suggesting that aebl will never make a good knife, that simply is not true. 

I use all of the same steels that you do. I have laminated all of those steels also. I have used dozens more alloys than these also. I have made knives for 41 years and spent all of that time studying steels and heat treating. My son Larrin has a PhD in metallurgy. 

There are no good or bad steels, we are all in search of the best steel for the right application with the best heat treatment. 

Looks like you make a pretty nice knife. Those that work with you seem to like your grinds and handles. 

My knife sales will not go up or down because of your comments. 

I see guys flash onto the knife making scene and chase the utra high wear resistant steels all the time. In the end we make knives and there is more to knives than wear resistance or edge retention. 

I would rather work with you than fight with you. You talk in absolutes and I disagree with you on most of them. 

Hoss


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## jacko9 (Nov 8, 2018)

Hitichi Blue #2 is my first steel of choice of course given the treatment of a given blacksmith be equal.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 8, 2018)

I use aeb-l from Dalman, Masamoto and Cris Anderson for a couple of years and never had a problem with chipping. It might not have the wear resistance of cpm154 or xhp, but it doesn't make that much of a difference for me as a home user and with plenty of other blades available. I actually value sharpenability more as it is more fun to sharpen aeb-l. My point is that not everybody is looking for the same traits when using a kitchen knife.


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## bkultra (Nov 8, 2018)

Until someone with a PhD in metallurgy posts in this thread about AEB-L I'm not ready to make any conclusions. Bonus points if his father and brother are some of the most in demand knife makers.


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> I use aeb-l from Dalman, Masamoto and Cris Anderson for a couple of years and never had a problem with chipping. It might not have the wear resistance of cpm154 or xhp, but it doesn't make that much of a difference for me as a home user and with plenty of other blades available. I actually value sharpenability more as it is more fun to sharpen aeb-l. My point is that not everybody is looking for the same traits when using a kitchen knife.


I have a conversation with each of my customer up front and learn about their cooking habits, sharpening habits, performance requirements, etc. I have a pro chef repeat customer who has one of my early AEBL knives and loves it. Why? He is a habitual knife sharpener. When he is not actually prepping, he is sharpening on a chef steel absentmindedly. Easy peazy, AEBL is always a good performer for him.

I have another customer who is a home cook and a salesman so he is home 1-2x per week. He cooks when he’s home, carves his thanksgiving bird and Christmas ham. He probably uses the AEBL knife I made for him (and he wants more knives as well, but they will be XHP) because he uses it maybe 100x per year. And he is not a very sophisticated sharpener (just uses chef steel. I had to beg him not to use a pull through sharpener!) It works great for him.

For a pro Chef who is an experienced sharpener, knows stones/angles/strops/etc who wants to sharpen every one or two weeks with only a few touch ups during service, I will even try to steer them toward CruWear or Elmax. If they want insane performance, then it’s 20CV, S110V, or M4.

So, properly heat treated XHP in my experience is a better performer than properly heat treated AEBL and my cost per pound of each is the same, I prefer XHP for my customers who want a easy sharpening steel.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 8, 2018)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> My point is that not everybody is looking for the same traits when using a kitchen knife.



Very true. People that need tools for work sometimes get stuck with needing edge retention or durability because they don't have the luxury of choice. People forget so many times that "professional" means revenue>cost=profit, it doesn't mean "always has the best tools, best methods, best practices, etc".


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## The Edge (Nov 8, 2018)

I would trust Hoss in everything he says. He has been open with me on how he approaches heat treatment, and has been, like the rest of the knifemakers I've met, willing to freely give knowledge that has taken him years to gain. You should be proud of your own knowledge, but should know when to back off and be humble with your lack of knowledge. I personally use AEB-L, and have had it very wear resistant around 62hrc without being chippy in any way. I've had professional chefs use it, and not need to sharpen for months at a time (and yes, they have extensive knowledge with high end Japanese knives), and have also let fish mongers use them over the course of weeks without sign of edge degradation. My guess is that most makers don't want to take the time to properly heat treat the metal, which leaves something less than desirable. My own knives, I find it wears better than blue super, and without touchups, I can go around 4 months without having to do any sharpening (no honing or stropping, just plain abuse).


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## RonB (Nov 8, 2018)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> No comment on the steel, as Barmoley covered it very well, but if you haven't joined yet, there is a Facebook group, "Stock Removal Knifemaking" that you might find interesting: https://www.facebook.com/groups/490161238018699/



Thanx for the link - it looks like an interesting place.


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## RonB (Nov 8, 2018)

Interapid101 said:


> IME grinding bothers my carpal tunnel more than moving steel under a hammer. But I have weak forearms
> Try before you buy.



I have already had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands, so I should be good...


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## RonB (Nov 8, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> Barmoley did a great response.
> 
> I have comfortably shaven my face with all sorts of steels so pure sharpness is a tough one. My personal favourite steel is R2 at the moment. Phrasing the questions the way you did I think will also get different responses depending on people's experiences and their experience levels.
> 
> ...


You may very well be right...


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## RonB (Nov 8, 2018)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> ZKnives is a goldmine of information on knife steels: http://zknives.com



Thanx for the link.


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## RonB (Nov 8, 2018)

Thanx again for all the responses. It's discussions like this that really help. I am really enjoying the differing points of view, (although the differing comments do make my head spin at times.  )

One thing that has become crystal clear is that I will need to find someone who can do a proper heat treatment. Peter's has been mentioned twice in this thread, so I googled them, and I like what I saw. Is there anyone else that I should consider?

Thanx yet again.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 8, 2018)

The Edge said:


> I personally use AEB-L, and have had it very wear resistant around 62hrc without being chippy in any way. I've had professional chefs use it, and not need to sharpen for months at a time (and yes, they have extensive knowledge with high end Japanese knives), and have also let fish mongers use them over the course of weeks without sign of edge degradation. My guess is that most makers don't want to take the time to properly heat treat the metal, which leaves something less than desirable. My own knives, I find it wears better than blue super, and without touchups, I can go around 4 months without having to do any sharpening (no honing or stropping, just plain abuse).



This reads like another one of those 
"i can use /white 2/ for six months without sharpening it" 
type anecdotes/ comments.


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## The Edge (Nov 8, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> This reads like another one of those
> "i can use /white 2/ for six months without sharpening it"
> type anecdotes/ comments.


With cryo, I get it up to ~65hrc before tempering back to 62. When I have money to properly do the craftsman level here again, I'll do a pass around. I realize my word doesn't mean much at the moment, but it is what it is.


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## XooMG (Nov 8, 2018)

Going to interject some love for properly heat treated 1050. I can cut through a whole onion with minimal chipping.


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## pennman (Nov 8, 2018)

XooMG said:


> Going to interject some love for properly heat treated 1050. I can cut through a whole onion with minimal chipping.


And with my M4 Blade I can open a dozen boxes from Amazon (with my boys, that’s one day’s mail delivery) AND pop the puffy plastic bubble packing without noticible dulling.


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## RDalman (Nov 9, 2018)

Pennman, I believe it possible your heat treat on Aeb-l have been far from optimal/ran low, or that you've been overheating it on the grinder.


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## Interapid101 (Nov 9, 2018)

RonB said:


> I have already had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands, so I should be good...



In that case, buy before you try!


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## pennman (Nov 9, 2018)

RDalman said:


> Pennman, I believe it possible your heat treat on Aeb-l have been far from optimal/ran low, or that you've been overheating it on the grinder.


Peters did all the heat treating. And I certainly didn’t over heat 30 different blades 30 different times when grinding. They don’t actually have to get that hot since they grind so easily. They actually grind very well with aluminum oxide belts or zirconia. The correlary to grinding so easily is that edge retention is poor. XHP and better steels require ceramic belts to grind efficiently and chew them up. Which also correlates to better edge retention.


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## RDalman (Nov 9, 2018)

pennman said:


> Peters did all the heat treating. And I certainly didn’t over heat 30 different blades 30 different times when grinding. They don’t actually have to get that hot since they grind so easily. They actually grind very well with aluminum oxide belts or zirconia. The correlary to grinding so easily is that edge retention is poor. XHP and better steels require ceramic belts to grind efficiently and chew them up. Which also correlates to better edge retention.



It sounds as if they where not heat treated actually, or miserably failed. Have them tested.


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## pennman (Nov 9, 2018)

RDalman said:


> It sounds as if they where not heat treated actually, or miserably failed. Have them tested.


So you are suggesting that all the AEBL blades I sent to Peters at multiple different times were fraudulently represented to me as being hardened with Cryo tempering but in actuality they were not? 

I’m pretty sure that Brad has heat treated orders of magnitude more blades than all knife makers on this forum combined so I will trust that he is at the very least extremely competent in doing it correctly. 

Unless someone thinks that Peters is incompetent in heat treating? Then I would like to hear about their experiences.


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## Sharpchef (Nov 9, 2018)

I agree with Mr. Dalman ! And i know what he knows about AEB-L! 

As a pro chef and hobbyist bladesmith, there are two kind`s of kitchen knifes. Low hardness knifes like Solingen Standart (i own some really nice old DICK  )... These will kill all other knives even Vanadis 30 and PM HSS knifes because they stay sharp for much longer time (with proper steeling).... 

AEB-L is not a bad steel at all, would not be my first choice but with good HT and proper steeling it can serve you well. 

And high wear resistant carbons, that work for me for maybe a week in my job. This is why i love 1.2562. I also love sharpening but it has to be in the right proportion : edge retention VS. sharpening time . 
I tested some  knives so far, and for me 1.2562 is still the best of them. There are steels with even better edge retention like Vanadis, and 
Р12М3К5Ф2-МП 
But they are very tough to sharpen (if you don`t use diamond abrassives) . 
Back to topic:

1 - If your only consideration was sharpness, what steel would you choose?
1.2562, 1.3505/52100, SC 145/125

2 - If you were concerned about sharpness and durability, (that would mean chipping for this non pro), what steel?
1.2562, 
*Р12М3К5Ф2-МП*


3 - And what steel that best meets 2 above, but with corrosion resistance?
MC 390 

greets Sebastian.


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## RDalman (Nov 9, 2018)

Cryo and tempering are two different processes. What I am saying is it sounds REALLY soft if you where able to grind it on regular ao belts and not had to use ceramics. So if I where you in that case I would have first got in touch with the heat treater and raise my concerns, and second I would have had the blades hardness tested by someone else or if I had the equipment myself. Whether it was not heat treated to contract could then be evaluated. And sure, one could heat treat Aeb-l, with cryo, and temper it down to 55rc, and yea it would pretty much suck. As maker, you should be on top of those things ahead, imo.


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## pennman (Nov 9, 2018)

RDalman said:


> Cryo and tempering are two different processes. What I am saying is it sounds REALLY soft if you where able to grind it on regular ao belts and not had to use ceramics. So if I where you in that case I would have first got in touch with the heat treater and raise my concerns, and second I would have had the blades hardness tested by someone else or if I had the equipment myself. Whether it was not heat treated to contract could then be evaluated. And sure, one could heat treat Aeb-l, with cryo, and temper it down to 55rc, and yea it would pretty much suck. As maker, you should be on top of those things ahead, imo.


I had them tested locally because I was disappointed with them . They were spot on 60-61 In multiple batches.


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## CB1968 (Nov 9, 2018)

Just a thought...... maybe you should have a crack at doing your own heat treating??
With the amount of clients you’ve got backed up awaiting your knives I would have thought this would be a priority?


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## milkbaby (Nov 9, 2018)

RonB said:


> I want to start making knives via stock removal.
> If I enjoy making knives, I will be making some for friends and relatives, and none of them are pros, so ease of care will be important - thus the interest in corrosion resistance.



Ron, if you're just interested in making knives for family and friends for fun, then in my opinion the choice of steel isn't quite so important. The only qualifier I'd use is to stick to stainless steel if the recipient won't make the effort to care for carbon steel. A well made handmade knife will probably run circles around whatever they're using in the kitchen now.




Marcelo Amaral said:


> I actually value sharpenability more as it is more fun to sharpen aeb-l. My point is that not everybody is looking for the same traits when using a kitchen knife.



This is a great point: Horses for courses. I share a similar sentiment to Marcelo. I like simple carbon steels like Shirogami because it's way easy to sharpen to hair splitting sharpness even with the very modest sharpening skills I have, and it's easy to get a knife back to that level of sharpness without much effort.

It might be hard to believe on this forum, but there are also people out there who really prefer a knife with softer steel that they can simply keep steeling on a chef's steel or honing rod.




Anton said:


> Just use the damn knife, don’t overthink it.



Pretty good advice!


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## Dan P. (Nov 9, 2018)

XooMG said:


> Going to interject some love for properly heat treated 1050. I can cut through a whole onion with minimal chipping.



Bro, one word: railroad spikes.
Look great, and you don’t even need to temper.


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## pennman (Nov 9, 2018)

CB1968 said:


> Just a thought...... maybe you should have a crack at doing your own heat treating??
> With the amount of clients you’ve got backed up awaiting your knives I would have thought this would be a priority?


That does not increase productivity actually. And Peters has the vacuum furnaces that are necessary for optimum treatment of high alloy steels that are prohibitively expensive.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 9, 2018)

pennman said:


> I have a conversation with each of my customer up front and learn about their cooking habits, sharpening habits, performance requirements, etc. I have a pro chef repeat customer who has one of my early AEBL knives and loves it. Why? He is a habitual knife sharpener. When he is not actually prepping, he is sharpening on a chef steel absentmindedly. Easy peazy, AEBL is always a good performer for him.
> 
> I have another customer who is a home cook and a salesman so he is home 1-2x per week. He cooks when he’s home, carves his thanksgiving bird and Christmas ham. He probably uses the AEBL knife I made for him (and he wants more knives as well, but they will be XHP) because he uses it maybe 100x per year. And he is not a very sophisticated sharpener (just uses chef steel. I had to beg him not to use a pull through sharpener!) It works great for him.
> 
> ...




Just to provide a context about myself: i cook about 3,4 times a week, more on weekends, at least once a week after work. I like to sharpen with naturals and aeb-l so far is the only stainless that allows me to do it quickly on jnats: 5-30 minutes on a kouzaki aoto, depending how much steel is taken behind the edge. I also like cpm154, but to make a quick sharpening it will require using a JNS300 synth as a first stone. Xhp is even harder to sharpen and i usually use JKI 1k diamond stone as the JNS300 takes too long. I favor the less refined edge from cpm154 (finishing both with the same stones) since i'm talking about gyutos here. So, aeb-l and cpm154 are my favorite stainless (followed by ginsanko and R2/SG2) and xhp doesn't appeal that much to me although it has the best edge retention of the three (aeb-l, cpm154 and xhp).


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 9, 2018)

Just wanted to add my empirical experience with AEBL from Robin Dalman and Devin Thomas. I own multiple Gyuto's from both and I've never seen a chip on either one, their a pleasure to sharpen and have decent edge retention.

Pennman ask yourself this, if one of the greatest metallurgist and knife pioneers of our generation "Devin Thomas" can choose any steel to work with, why would he choose AEBL if its an inferior metal for knives? Not only that, his PHD son, self professed Steel Geek thinks is good for kitchen knives, doesn't that also make you question your assumptions?

I've been seriously into knives for a long time and have nearly every flavor (or have tried them) and AEBL has never stained, chipped or lost the edge prematurely.

Lastly, either English is not your primary language or you might want to have someone edit your remarks cause they just rub us the wrong way.


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## YG420 (Nov 9, 2018)

Pd-1 from Devin is the best steel ive ever used...great edge retention and easy to sharpen


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## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 9, 2018)

There's a simple way to settle this difference of opinion. All Stephan (pennman) needs to do is send one of the AEB-L knives that are the basis of his conclusions about the steel to an unbiased and open-minded member of the Forum who will examine it before and after hard use and see if Stephan's conclusions are warranted.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 9, 2018)

pennman said:


> View attachment 44659
> View attachment 44660
> View attachment 44661
> View attachment 44662
> ...


What are these monstrosities? [emoji44]


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## Chef Doom (Nov 9, 2018)

DevinT said:


> I recommend that you be a little less argumentative around here. Congrats on your success.
> 
> People who are loud and aggressive loose credibility.
> 
> Hoss


You call it loud and agressive, I call it spicing things up a little


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## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Just wanted to add my empirical experience with AEBL from Robin Dalman and Devin Thomas. I own multiple Gyuto's from both and I've never seen a chip on either one, their a pleasure to sharpen and have decent edge retention.
> 
> Pennman ask yourself this, if one of the greatest metallurgist and knife pioneers of our generation "Devin Thomas" can choose any steel to work with, why would he choose AEBL if its an inferior metal for knives? Not only that, his PHD son, self professed Steel Geek thinks is good for kitchen knives, doesn't that also make you question your assumptions?
> 
> ...



Some poeple just dont like aeb-l, its simple as that. Just because other people like something doesn't mean everybody has to like the same thing. I dont really like the powdered "super steels" that much, I dont think they bring anything extra to table compared to whats already out there, not that much at least. For example, most people love R2, I think its nothing special. Its good but nothing really special imo. 

And even if "god himself" told me that R2 is the absolutely bestest steel in the entire universe I wouldn't give a F about that. Because for me it isn't.

People choose steel for all kinds of different reasons. This is why there are several different steels to choose from in this world. 
There is no better or worse, there is just different steels with different heat treatments which results in different properties. All steels are compromises. And if this is surprise to people here maybe you should read a book or 2 about this subject. You simply choose what compromises _you_ want to deal with.


a bit OT:
At work i have about 6-7 Mora type knives in rotation. Some are stainless 12c27 and some are carbon 1095/100C. They all get sufficiently sharp, they all chip out pretty much the same, and realistically they all lose sharpness at about the same pace, BUT the 100C ones sharpen up after my abuse about 10 times faster. The performance is about as equal as it can get for my particular use, the time spent sharpening them is not. Basically the SS is not worth the time invested. Since its not actually better at anything.
(However I don't do much actual cutting with my knives at work though. Mostly I scrape rust/dirt/grease/oil/other crap from hardened steel machines and similar. And pry stuff open.)

I feel the same about kitchen knife steel. If the steel is not doing anything noticeably "better" than some lower grade that's on a cheaper knife, then whats the point?? I don't buy my knives only for performance though (i can sharpen them every day if i want to). I buy them because they look nice! And then it doesn't really matter. 

For me there is no "best steel ever used". But blue 2 is a good compromise I think.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 9, 2018)

pennman said:


> That’s why aogami super is better kitchen cutlery steel than white #1. Cruwear better than CPM 154CM. S110V better than ZDP-189.



You dare talk bad about Hitachi Shirogami Steel?

BURN THIS HERETIC AT THE STAKE TO CLEANSE HIS TATTERED SOUL!


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## Chef Doom (Nov 9, 2018)

bkultra said:


> Until someone with a PhD in metallurgy posts in this thread about AEB-L I'm not ready to make any conclusions. Bonus points if his father and brother are some of the most in demand knife makers.


If you are not going to come to random conclusions then do not comment. Just stay silent with a bag of cancer butter popcorn.


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## pennman (Nov 9, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> What are these monstrosities? [emoji44]




Here is another one for your enjoyment!


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## Chef Doom (Nov 9, 2018)

Touche good sir, touche.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 9, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> if one of the greatest metallurgist and knife pioneers of our generation "Devin Thomas" can choose any steel to work with, why would he choose AEBL if its an inferior metal for knives?



Whoa whoa whoa, hold up now. I know you are star struck, but lets not make wild statements and crazy unsubstantiated claims. If you are going to make these claims, I'm going to need some proof.


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## Dan P. (Nov 9, 2018)

Stephen, (@pennman) I have to ask; Do you offer a sharpening service for your knives? And, if so, do you use the same set of sharpening stones for the culinary knives as for the corpse knives? Honest question.


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## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

its all just meat isn't it??


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## pennman (Nov 9, 2018)

Dan P. said:


> Stephen, (@pennman) I have to ask; Do you offer a sharpening service for your knives? And, if so, do you use the same set of sharpening stones for the culinary knives as for the corpse knives? Honest question.



Yes I do. I have two different sets of stones and strops. But I have similar stones in each set. I’m well aware of cross contamination.


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## pennman (Nov 9, 2018)

inferno said:


> its all just meat isn't it??



...and fat and ligament and tendon and organs and cartilage and brains


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## Dan P. (Nov 9, 2018)

pennman said:


> Yes I do. I have two different sets of stones and strops. But I have similar stones in each set. I’m well aware of cross contamination.



Which set do you use for the circumcision knives?


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## pennman (Nov 9, 2018)

Dan P. said:


> Which set do you use for the circumcision knives?


I haven’t sharpened them for anyone else.


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 9, 2018)

inferno said:


> Some poeple just dont like aeb-l, its simple as that. Just because other people like something doesn't mean everybody has to like the same thing. I dont really like the powdered "super steels" that much, I dont think they bring anything extra to table compared to whats already out there, not that much at least. For example, most people love R2, I think its nothing special. Its good but nothing really special imo.
> 
> And even if "god himself" told me that R2 is the absolutely bestest steel in the entire universe I wouldn't give a F about that. Because for me it isn't.
> 
> ...



Thanks inferno but I didn't say that AEBL was the BEST knife steel, just providing my input as an actual user of it. You admittedly say you buy them based on how they look? I think that says enough. We have a whole thread on knives that are designed around aesthetic, its called "The ugly knife thread" enjoy.


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## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Thanks inferno but I didn't say that AEBL was the BEST knife steel, just providing my input as an actual user of it. You admittedly say you buy them based on how they look? I think that says enough. We have a whole thread on knives that are designed around aesthetic, its called "The ugly knife thread" enjoy.



Maybe you should step down from your ivory tower?
I think you are reading too much into it. I mean why buy ugly blades when i can buy nice looking ones. and I have like 15 stones at home. so I can get them all to the same sharpness and I can do that every day if i want to. Sure i like performance. But I can make them all perform similar. its a non issue for me really.

I currently have 4 forged r2 blades, 1 aus8, 1 aus 8 cryoed, 3 blue 2, 1 blue super, 2 aus6, 1 vg10, 1 1.4116/x50crmov15 or whatever the f its called.

I did a test here at home with a mac cryoed aus 8 and a kurosaki r2. took these to 8k on a shapton melon super. cut some cardboard boxes up and the difference between these steel in edge holding is like 10-15% in reality. this was a torture test. since i ran them to the ground pretty much. i wanted to really see HOW they dulled. 

So one of the crappiest regarded steels the dreaded aus 8 performs similar to one of the very top ones, r2/sg2. go figure. I was 0,000% surprised though. I actually thought it would end like it did. and it did. since I have done similar tests before. They just dull in a different way, thats all. you like microchips or rounding off to fix?

So no I dont buy blades on looks alone but hey when its all the same crap more or less, i get the sexy ones.


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## milkbaby (Nov 9, 2018)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> There's a simple way to settle this difference of opinion. All Stephan (pennman) needs to do is send one of the AEB-L knives that are the basis of his conclusions about the steel to an unbiased and open-minded member of the Forum who will examine it before and after hard use and see if Stephan's conclusions are warranted.



I think a passaround would be great. It's always fun to try different knives.

I do feel that perhaps Stephen's experiences are being poopoo'd by the forumites a bit. Perhaps the type of edge geometry that he likes isn't compatible with the heat treatment that Peter's produces on AEB-L. 

Obviously we have one of the world's foremost experts on AEB-L used as cutlery steel in the form of Hoss/Devin here. I'm sure he could answer in detail why heat treatment for cutlery is not as simple as following manufacturer's protocol. How the steel is processed and treated can affect it's performance (wear resistance, edge stability, etc). For example, one of Larrin's articles was about retained austenite, which probably the majority of knifemakers would say they don't want because it lowers the overall max hardness ignoring that it may offer another benefit in the form of greater toughness (please correct me if I'm misremembering the article).

This is not to say Peter's HT is substandard, but perhaps it's an HT suited best for the majority of knives they receive to be treated, could be EDC and hunters that have different geometry than kitchen cutlery? I'm just guessing, have no real idea.


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## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

or you could just as well just polish and etch the blade and put it under a microscope or send it out to larrin or science of sharp and they SEM it and then we'll know whats up. 

But it could be that this person just dont like the steel?? so what??

there are like 7 billion people on this planet and all of them have their own opinion on everything. and guess what, its their own opinion of things that is the most important in their lives. not other peoples opinions. 

Regarding aeb-l/13c26 i think the makers give you all the info you need and also what the tradeoffs are when HTing this steel pretty well in their data sheets. at least sandvik did in the past.


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## milkbaby (Nov 9, 2018)

inferno said:


> Regarding aeb-l/13c26 i think the makers give you all the info you need and also what the tradeoffs are when HTing this steel pretty well in their data sheets. at least sandvik did in the past.



I agree with your points except this one. There is batch to batch variation in steels, a very detail oriented maker will test their heat treat on each new batch and dial it in because they are not guaranteed to give the same results. That's also why some makers will stock up on a bunch of the same steel at once so they don't have to do this testing everytime they get a new batch of the same steel.

Look at 52100, the "standard" manufacturer HT is not optimized for cutlery, this has been seen by other makers.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 9, 2018)

inferno said:


> Some poeple just dont like aeb-l, its simple as that. Just because other people like something doesn't mean everybody has to like the same thing



I think the discurrion is not about making people like aeb-l, but about the reasons why it is supposedly crap, like, for instance, lack of toughness. It makes me wonder that maybe there is something done differently in pennman's process (ht, geometry etc) that would make the blade chippier.


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## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

milkbaby said:


> I agree with your points except this one. There is batch to batch variation in steels, a very detail oriented maker will test their heat treat on each new batch and dial it in because they are not guaranteed to give the same results. That's also why some makers will stock up on a bunch of the same steel at once so they don't have to do this testing everytime they get a new batch of the same steel.
> 
> Look at 52100, the "standard" manufacturer HT is not optimized for cutlery, this has been seen by other makers.


there is no batch variation with sandvik or uddeholm and there hasn't been since the 1600's or so.
this is how they make money. you always get the exact same product.
if you look at these guys datasheets it says like 0,63% and that means 0,63% not 0,5-0,7 its 0,63% each and every time.


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## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> I think the discurrion is not about making people like aeb-l, but about the reasons why it is supposedly crap, like, for instance, lack of toughness. It makes me wonder that maybe there is something done differently in pennman's process (ht, geometry etc) that would make the blade chippier.



I dont think its crap but I also dont think its all that good either, its surpassed by aus8 for example. one of the cheapest japanese steels.

when i got internet connextion in like 2002 or 3 or so i quickly learned that everything that people write on the net is not completely factual. some is exagerated (i dont know how to spell this word obviously) and some is held back. and somewhere inbetween is the truth.

nothing you read on tha mighty intarwebz is completely true.

surprise surprise!  you read it first here!


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## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

milkbaby what I meant to say is that they sell a "product" and not a standard, 52100 is standard, and eveyone can make it, its between "this and that" percentage. aeb-l and 13c26 are very specific products. there is no variation in these. should be close to 0 at least. I'm swedish and If I couldn't weigh sh1t and then put it in a smelter and then calculate the resulting % then I would probably have to kill myself. this is not rocket science.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 9, 2018)

inferno said:


> I dont think its crap but I also dont think its all that good either, its surpassed by aus8 for example. one of the cheapest japanese steels.
> 
> when i got internet connextion in like 2002 or 3 or so i quickly learned that everything that people write on the net is not completely factual. some is exagerated (i dont know how to spell this word obviously) and some is held back. and somewhere inbetween is the truth.
> 
> ...



You are entitled to dislike or even to think it's crap, but when you say it's crap at least partly because it lacks toughness, that explanation will be disputed.

Not sure why you talk about the fact that not everything people write on the net is not completely factual (which i agree). As said before, i've been using a couple of aeb-l gyutos for some years and never had a chippng problem with any of those. What's the net got to do with this?


----------



## DevinT (Nov 9, 2018)

inferno said:


> there is no batch variation with sandvik or uddeholm and there hasn't been since the 1600's or so.
> this is how they make money. you always get the exact same product.
> if you look at these guys datasheets it says like 0,63% and that means 0,63% not 0,5-0,7 its 0,63% each and every time.



The carbon content of aebl ranges from .65-.70 and will affect the hardening. I have seen this from 30 years of chem certs on the material I’ve purchased. Not all steel labeled aebl is made by uddeholm. I’ve seen knock-offs that were not as good. 

Custom heat treating in a small shop is better than large batch heat treating when you know what you are doing. The steel heats up faster, cools down faster, goes into the cryo faster, cheaper to do things like pre-queching, stress relieving, adapting to different batches etc. Also, doing your own test coupons will teach you a lot about heat treating and steel behavior. 

Hoss


----------



## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> You are entitled to dislike or even to think it's crap, but when you say it's crap at least partly because it lacks toughness, that explanation will be disputed.
> Not sure why you talk about the fact that not everything people write on the net is not completely factual (which i agree). As said before, i've been using a couple of aeb-l gyutos for some years and never had a chippng problem with any of those. What's the net got to do with this?



I think you are misenterpreting me. I have no axe to grind with aeb-l I think its good solid steel, much better than the specs reveal just by looking at the numbers. but its just not for me. what can i say. if i wanted a steel that dull inm the mode of "rounding off" i would get aus8 instead. it has grainrefiner V in low amounts, it has toughener Ni 0,5%, a bit of Mo for cabides (and secondary hardening if any). and its low enough C to make it really tough. whats not to like here?

this is a step up from 13c26/aeb-l if you ask me. a whole step. from aus8 to r2 its maybe a half step. they just dull in a different way. but they still dull about the same. 

i am in no way employed or payed by mac knives. I just think this way.
i also think this: just because steel x has a hrc of Y doesn't mean jack sh1t if you dont know exactly what they did to it. 
could be sh1t, could be good, still the same hrc!


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## inferno (Nov 9, 2018)

DevinT said:


> The carbon content of aebl ranges from .65-.70 and will affect the hardening. I have seen this from 30 years of chem certs on the material I’ve purchased. Not all steel labeled aebl is made by uddeholm. I’ve seen knock-offs that were not as good.
> 
> Custom heat treating in a small shop is better than large batch heat treating when you know what you are doing. The steel heats up faster, cools down faster, goes into the cryo faster, cheaper to do things like pre-queching, stress relieving, adapting to different batches etc. Also, doing your own test coupons will teach you a lot about heat treating and steel behavior.
> 
> Hoss



from what i understand you can only do 1 or at most 2 at a time to get the ultimate (aim) HT, not 10 or 20pc. 
and we all know it takes time to process the blades and they dont really wanna stay in there for another 10-15 minutes when done. and this has been known for at least 50-80 years. I read my last book about steel like 10 years ago and it was from the 60ies. and it was totally current somehow!! go figure.


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## comet_sharp (Nov 9, 2018)

pennman said:


> AEBL is crap for chef knives. Avoid it at all costs. It’s for straight razors. Chippy, poor edge retention, will pit and rust. It’s stain resistant. Not stainless. Go with CPM 154CM or XHP.


Aebl is good stuff, so are its Sandvik cousins
If you find it chippy work on your HT,


pennman said:


> I have a great deal of respect for you and the information on your website. I learn quite a bit. But in the real world, my daily AEBL knives I use and have provided to professional chefs, AEBL is crap. Doesn’t hold an edge through one autopsy, requires sharpening every 45 -60 min, and will look like a hacksaw blade after one service in a pro kitchen. All cutting was done on poly boards by me and professional chefs. The only AEBL blades that performed well were ones where the chef habitually used a chef steel throughout service and kept the blade sharp continually. Also blades did well in the hands of the extremely casual user. But they liked knives from Bed, Bath, and Beyond.
> 
> I won’t use it. I won’t buy knives made with it. I and multiple other excellent knife makers won’t use it. I know Devin Thomas uses it and people like it.
> 
> ...





pennman said:


> Correct. My experience is different than others’ HERE. But it is not unique.
> 
> And I certainly do place wear resistance as the most important property of steel for chef knives. That’s why aogami super is better kitchen cutlery steel than white #1. Cruwear better than CPM 154CM. S110V better than ZDP-189.



Eh, thats all opinion. I'll take shiro 1 over AS any day of the week. I'll also take aebl over cpm154 though as it sharpens better and is tougher. 
-Trey


----------



## Marko Tsourkan (Nov 11, 2018)

pennman said:


> AEBL is crap for chef knives. Avoid it at all costs. It’s for straight razors. Chippy, poor edge retention, will pit and rust. It’s stain resistant. Not stainless. Go with CPM 154CM or XHP.



What are you talking about? Are you really talking about AEB-L or some other steel?

AEB-L is some of the best steel for kitchen knives. It has some the best toughness among stainless steels, gets razor sharp with relatively little effort, and offers reasonably good edge holding. When *properly* heat treated, it can obtain hardness 61.5-62RC. I have never had AEB-L chip on me and I HT in the hardness mentioned. In an annealed condition it will rust, but not after you heat treat it.

I am not saying it is the best stainless out there, but by the cost/benefits ratio, it's one of the best. It gets up to 30 days of use between sharpening in a *pro kitchen* (with after-shift stropping on 1M). Compare it to a white steel.

If not tempered properly, any steel will chip or even break. I have heard from forum members that some makers aim for highest hardness in AEB-L and the blades had chipping edges, but this has nothing to do with the steel, but rather with the heat treatment.


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 11, 2018)

Marko, Pennman doesn’t do any of his own HT. He does produce some very sharp conjecture though. Coming into our house and poo poo everyone’s AEBL. what a beaut


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## Gregmega (Nov 11, 2018)

comet_sharp said:


> Aebl is good stuff, so are its Sandvik cousins
> If you find it chippy work on your HT,
> 
> 
> ...



B2 & AS is for home cooks.


----------



## F-Flash (Nov 11, 2018)

Ive used Robin dalmans aeb-l gyuto. And its top 2 stainless steels ive ever used. I like Tanaka ginsan also. Both are fantastic.


----------



## Paolo (Nov 12, 2018)

Zdp189?


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 12, 2018)

inferno said:


> I think you are misenterpreting me. I have no axe to grind with aeb-l I think its good solid steel, much better than the specs reveal just by looking at the numbers. but its just not for me. what can i say. if i wanted a steel that dull inm the mode of "rounding off" i would get aus8 instead. it has grainrefiner V in low amounts, it has toughener Ni 0,5%, a bit of Mo for cabides (and secondary hardening if any). and its low enough C to make it really tough. whats not to like here?
> 
> this is a step up from 13c26/aeb-l if you ask me. a whole step. from aus8 to r2 its maybe a half step. they just dull in a different way. but they still dull about the same.
> 
> ...



My point is not if you like or not aeb-l, which seems like you don't dislike as you said before. 

My point is that you were trying to relate a dispute on aeb-l being chippy or not to a matter of opinion.


----------



## Luke_G (Nov 13, 2018)

Given that it has just been mentioned, what about Zdp189/Cowry-X......and yes I know that the Cowry-X supply of kitchen knives is limited and that the steels are very similar
--> Has anybody ever tested the real life difference between the two steels?


----------



## mlau (Nov 13, 2018)

Just for context, most users have NO IDEA what a good knife is.
I'd say that all the makers here have knives better than 99.9% of the market (regardless of 1095, AEBL, ZPD189, Hitachi White/Blue, Heiji's SemiStainless, Damascusteel, etc.)

While I can't comment about *best* steel, I'd say that best depends on the user.
I'm happy with 1095, 52100, Hitachi White, since I like to sharpen.
Others can't stand anything that can get stained.


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Nov 13, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> Whoa whoa whoa, hold up now. I know you are star struck, but lets not make wild statements and crazy unsubstantiated claims. If you are going to make these claims, I'm going to need some proof.



Chef Vroom, I am star stuck because Devin Thomas is indeed a metallurgist rock star of the highest order. I'm pretty sure its a universal truth, kinda like gravity.


----------



## Ruso (Nov 13, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Chef Vroom, I am star stuck because Devin Thomas is indeed a metallurgist rock star of the highest order. I'm pretty sure its a universal truth, kinda like gravity.


Wow, a metallurgist and a professional Football (eggball) player!! What a career!


----------



## cheflarge (Nov 13, 2018)

I wonder if Bob Kramer thinks Aeb-L sucks....... Being his latest Z-Kramer products are made from Aeb-L, one monosteel & one damascus....... Hmmmm?????


----------



## LucasFur (Nov 13, 2018)

OP (original poster) ... Look at whats easiest to work with! 
Nothing more frustrating spending 6-8-10 hours fixing something and/or grinding and/or polishing.


----------



## Hanmak17 (Nov 13, 2018)

Favorite steel (Gets very sharp + deforms vs chipping = touch ups vs full blown resharpening) 

#1: (for durability) Watanabe's (or Toyama for that matter ) Yasuki blue steel core. 
#1 (for the pure pleasure of sharpening it): Either Will Catchsides SC125 or Tokifusa Iizuka's mysterious "spicy" steel


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## daveb (Nov 13, 2018)

Surprised no one has mentioned Cutco. Their steel is so fine it never needs sharpening.


----------



## dwalker (Nov 13, 2018)

daveb said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned Cutco. Their steel is so fine it never needs sharpening.


Not true at all. They offer a sharpening service for their knives.


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## Ruso (Nov 13, 2018)

daveb said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned Cutco. Their steel is so fine it never needs sharpening.


I believe it's 440C, could of been worse.


----------



## chiffonodd (Nov 13, 2018)

Ruso said:


> I believe it's 440C, could of been worse.



omg how is no one getting the joke


----------



## stringer (Nov 13, 2018)

My wife had a complete set of Cutco knives when we started dating. All that remains 12 years later is the vegetable peeler. Difficult to sharpen and no edge retention. That's a lousy combination.


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## Ruso (Nov 13, 2018)

chiffonodd said:


> omg how is no one getting the joke


May be because it is not very funny? YMMV


----------



## panda (Nov 14, 2018)

That last reply was funny tho


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## daveb (Nov 14, 2018)

Ruso said:


> May be because it is not very funny? YMMV



I think it's hilarious.


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## Ruso (Nov 14, 2018)

daveb said:


> I think it's hilarious.


Would of been really sad if you did not; would not it?


----------



## Migraine (Nov 14, 2018)

Gregmega said:


> B2 & AS is for home cooks.



Why's that? Genuine question.


----------



## HRC_64 (Nov 14, 2018)

Migraine said:


> Why's that? Genuine question.



Calling blue steel unfit for pro use is a clutter comment
in a thread already full of garbage.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 14, 2018)

Its really a dis-service to discussion on KKF that every
flaw noted an inanimate object becomes a toxic 
discussion re: political grievenace /
personalized insults, etc


----------



## HRC_64 (Nov 14, 2018)

This thread has massively jumped the shark and should prob just be locked.


----------



## Hanmak17 (Nov 14, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> This thread has massively jumped the shark and should prob just be locked.



Uhhh Bevis?


----------



## milkbaby (Nov 14, 2018)

chiffonodd said:


> omg how is no one getting the joke



Uhh, I "liked" the post... just call me mr. no one, I guess?


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## jeepcj5 (Nov 15, 2018)

Carpenter CTS 204p Fav blade steel, just wish I could find it in a 230-270 mil Gyuto...


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## daveb (Nov 15, 2018)

jeepcj5 said:


> Carpenter CTS 204p Fav blade steel, just wish I could find it in a 230-270 mil Gyuto...



Shoot Butch Harner an email.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 15, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Chef Vroom, I am star stuck because Devin Thomas is indeed a metallurgist rock star of the highest order. I'm pretty sure its a universal truth, kinda like gravity.


Sounds like new age relative truth to me.


----------



## Chef Doom (Nov 15, 2018)

daveb said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned Cutco. Their steel is so fine it never needs sharpening.


Hahaha


----------



## Chef Doom (Nov 15, 2018)

chiffonodd said:


> omg how is no one getting the joke


Because this is a serious topic. Careers and reputations are on the line.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 15, 2018)

I'm going to go against the grain and give a serious vote to VC carbon by Suien.


----------



## Gregmega (Nov 15, 2018)

Migraine said:


> Why's that? Genuine question.



It’s really more of an inside joke, I like them both, but for work I tend towards whites. I just enjoy the edge I can pull up better. There’s a scary, almost violent edge on them, and on some blues, I feel like they can be numb, or almost too smooth. Just a preference.

*apologies for my first comment, next time I’ll put on my lab coat and a more professional decorum for those with sensitive needs.


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## Barmoley (Nov 15, 2018)

daveb said:


> Shoot Butch Harner an email.



Does Butch work with CTS 204p? I thought his steel of choice was CTS-XHP which is great in it's own right and Harner knives are excellent. The one I had was very good, if it wasn't for the large western handle I would keep it. I have a m390 (basically same as CTS 204p) gyuto and the steel works very well.


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## Blom (Nov 15, 2018)

1: silver steel (EN 1.2210), sc125, white1 ... in that order

2: 1095, 20c15, 52100, 15n20

3: AEB-L

So many interesting steel out there but if i had to choose one it would be 1095 that pretty much sums them all up[emoji39]
Universal simple and makes a darn good knife for any purpose[emoji1305]


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## lemeneid (Nov 16, 2018)

TF steel is best steel. White#1 with heat treatment done properly. Great sharpness and edge retention too!

Haven’t tried a Denka but if the heat treatment is just as good then it’s a winner.


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## Blom (Nov 19, 2018)

Reading back the thread was interesting, some saying that Aeb-l steel is a chippy steel[emoji15] say what?
I find this extremely hard to belive and must be a result of poor ht.
I’ve had some years now doing my own ht and testing it with different ht ranging from 59hrc up to 63.5hrc.
Sorry to say i cant make cryo or deepfreeze reasonable affordable here in the wilderness, 80km to nearest town[emoji37]
Stuck with -27C° so far but better then +20C°!
I enjoy my ht with Aeb-l and think it performs very well up to 62hrc even with super thin edges!
At 60hrc it’s to flexy and over 62.5 it became significant brittle to me so i settled at 62hrc.
As i mentined, no cryo so cant say if i had got rid of more retained austenite i would reach higher hardness with remained toughness!?
Looking at some deep freezer that reaches -70C° but has a price tag at +6000$ doesent feel like an option so i got my hands on a old freezer with ”freon” in it[emoji51][emoji85] i am working on and re-building to see how low temp i can push it to!


----------



## Jville (Nov 19, 2018)

Ive slacked on this thread. It was alotvto read in one sitting. 

I have a aebl knife made by an American not one mentioned in this thread. It was heat treated by Peters. The edge retention is nothing special, but it seems very tough. I haven't found it chippy at all. And the edge retention still seems similar to other entry level edge retention knives in the 60-61 range. I had another mass produced AEBL and it was also tough with similiar edge retention seemed consistent with others in the 60-61 hrc range. I used it hard as a line knife and it looked about the same after a hard year of being the main knife I used. I tried a DT for a week that I'm quite sure was AEBL and it was on another level in so many ways, but also the steel felt much better in the edge retention catergory.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 19, 2018)

Blom said:


> Reading back the thread was interesting, some saying that Aeb-l steel is a <<chippy>> steel say what?
> ...over 62.5 it became <<significant brittle>> to me so i settled at 62hrc.



This seems like the answer to your puzzule.


----------



## LucasFur (Nov 19, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> get different responses depending on people's experiences and their experience levels.




Here is Carter after making 18,000 blades saying that 52100 can be good stuff. Its All in the Experience.


----------



## DevinT (Nov 19, 2018)

Yeah, I’m the guy that suggested MC try 52100. 

Hoss


----------



## panda (Nov 19, 2018)

how come no american makers work with hitachi steel except for MC?


----------



## parbaked (Nov 19, 2018)

MC has a source in Japan...otherwise hard or expensive to purchase Hitachi knife steel outside of Japan until recently.


----------



## milkbaby (Nov 19, 2018)

panda said:


> how come no american makers work with hitachi steel except for MC?



Weimy Cutlery, HSC3 Knives, and Rebelde Blades use Hitachi steel. I think all of them took the bladesmithing course with Carter, and I think that's who they get the steel from.

Guys on Bladeforums tried to put together a group buy sometime back and the company wouldn't sell to damn gaijin, IIRC.

There is a source in the USA to buy but limited sizes and selection of billets, mostly prelaminated san mai. Maybe people are happy with the other options. I personally am not convinced the premium is worth it especially since it is not as big a selling point as in the past.


----------



## panda (Nov 19, 2018)

better to try to get spicy white from devin i guess


----------



## labor of love (Nov 19, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> I'm going to go against the grain and give a serious vote to VC carbon by Suien.


Aka blue 2


----------



## labor of love (Nov 19, 2018)

panda said:


> better to try to get spicy white from devin i guess


Ahem...or Marko


----------



## bkultra (Nov 21, 2018)

Hitachi only exports their steel if you're going to buy a minimum of 1 metric ton. I know Randy at HHH had picked up a large amount of blue that Mark had leftover... Not sure he still has any left .


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

DevinT said:


> You keep suggesting that aebl will never make a good knife, that simply is not true.
> 
> I use all of the same steels that you do. I have laminated all of those steels also. I have used dozens more alloys than these also. I have made knives for 41 years and spent all of that time studying steels and heat treating. My son Larrin has a PhD in metallurgy.
> 
> There are no good or bad steels, we are all in search of the best steel for the right application with the best heat treatment.





RDalman said:


> Pennman, I believe it possible your heat treat on Aeb-l have been far from optimal/ran low, or that you've been overheating it on the grinder.





pennman said:


> So you are suggesting that all the AEBL blades I sent to Peters at multiple different times were fraudulently represented to me as being hardened with Cryo tempering but in actuality they were not?


How does one gauge if a maker's heat treat of AEB-L is reliable? What questions would you ask, especially if a maker does not heat treat his own AEB-L? For example, if someone says he does not have the equipment but has blades heat treated by Peters with cryo, should you be confident with that answer and do not need to ask more questions?


----------



## Matus (Sep 12, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> How does one gauge if a maker's heat treat of AEB-L is reliable? What questions would you ask, especially if a maker does not heat treat his own AEB-L? For example, if someone says he does not have the equipment but has blades heat treated by Peters with cryo, should you be confident with that answer and do not need to ask more questions?



Lot of experience with cutting and sharpening knives from given steel. F you are just starting, than it is generally a good idea to get the knife in the steel you are interested in trying out made by someone who is known to work with given steel and has a good name - in case of AEBL Devin or Robin for example.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

you selling yours?  i will buy this.

but I thought to ask... I didn't know who Devin Thomas was until I read this thread and I only knew who Larrin was. But what about a newer maker who offers AEB-L (for example) as one of his preferred steels? Off the top of my head, Shihan is a US maker who offers AEB-L, how would I be confident his heat treat is OK and what should I be asking?


----------



## Matus (Sep 12, 2020)

I never had a knife in AEBL for some unknown reason


----------



## Chuckles (Sep 12, 2020)

For me, I would make sure the maker is open about stating that they learned how to heat treat AEB-L from Devin Thomas. Marko Tsourkan as an example.


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 12, 2020)

Interapid101 said:


> I predict this thread will go ten pages and the last post will be in 2021.



Bravo!


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 12, 2020)

I have Zwilling's 13C26. It's though ****. I don't slice much in use so the lesser wear resistance is not something that affects me foremost. I don't use them so much anymore but at one point the Gyuto was used each day for about 30mins - 1 hour, during some 4 months, with OOTB sharpness (fairly good). I noticed a decrease after 150 hours of use or about. I also had accidents (or more true would be that other members of the household had accidents) with dropping on ceramic floor and stucking it in drawers.

From all the wrongs it was victim of, the Gyuto had a slightly bent tip from one of the drawer accident, and that's it. I sharpened it once and use it a couple of times each week on bamboo boards since 4 additional months.

It's simply the knife that I've used the most, and apart from being slightly bent OOTB and not so corrosion resistant, it is awesome steel. And Zwilling HT is basic at best.

The only disagreement I've found true about it has been mentioned - after seeing more than five different units of Zwilling/Miyabi FC61, they ALL are bent to some degree.



chefcomesback said:


> Bad heat treatment can make any steel chippy , higher austenizing temperatures combined with very high tempering will make stainless less corrosion and not much stain resistant. Only down side of Aebl i found is that it may warp during cryo if you don’t have any precautions. If you know what you are doing it’s a very good knife steel


----------



## HSC /// Knives (Sep 12, 2020)

Matus said:


> Lot of experience with cutting and sharpening knives from given steel. F you are just starting, than it is generally a good idea to get the knife in the steel you are interested in trying out made by someone who is known to work with given steel and has a good name - in case of AEBL Devin or Robin for example.


I’m feeling left out so now I’m going to have to put up one of my AEBL knives for a pass around


----------



## Matus (Sep 12, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> I’m feeling left out so now I’m going to have to put up one of my AEBL knives for a pass around


At least someone got the message


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> For me, I would make sure the maker is open about stating that they learned how to heat treat AEB-L from Devin Thomas. Marko Tsourkan as an example.


What if they're open about sending the AEB-L blades somewhere else for heat treat? @pennman here for example was talking about bad experienes with blades sent to Peters.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> I’m feeling left out so now I’m going to have to put up one of my AEBL knives for a pass around


You do your own heat treat too?


----------



## labor of love (Sep 13, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> I’m feeling left out so now I’m going to have to put up one of my AEBL knives for a pass around


I was just raving about that other passaround today. “Best rosewood handle everrrr”


----------



## HSC /// Knives (Sep 13, 2020)

yes, and sometimes I do it with my friend at his shop
I think it's important to understand the steps and have direct control over the process.
I think it's fine if you don't do your own HT and send it out, but you should know how to do it, and have done it.

It's also simply more efficient for me ( although for other makers sending it out is more efficient) and it's less costly.

I'm not high production but I've made and sold 80 knives in the last 6 months. That's $1,600 at $20 per knife.


----------



## Chuckles (Sep 13, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> What if they're open about sending the AEB-L blades somewhere else for heat treat? @pennman here for example was talking about bad experienes with blades sent to Peters.



One of my favorite knives was heat treated at Peters. It is CPM-154 tho not AEB-L. Peters has the equipment to do any kind of heat treat. They also have multiple employees and different heat treats for different types of knives. The maker would have to know enough to request the right process and perhaps request the right employee. I have never interacted with Peters but this is my understanding.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

Would you have more details on what they do, is the process comparable to how a small maker would do it in house?


----------



## Chuckles (Sep 13, 2020)

Most likely, I have already misrepresented their business. They seem very capable but I am not the one to speak in any kind of detail on their operation.


----------



## pennman (Sep 19, 2020)

For my lower alloy stainless steels, I’ve noticed some problems from peters. The same problems that Greg Cimms has been experiencing in similar low alloy steels. For my higher alloy steels like M390/20CV, S110V, 3V, M4, CruWear, Rex121, etc, Peters does an awesome job. Those often need a vacuum kiln for optimal HT.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 19, 2020)

Can you elaborate on the problems, and the performance issues they lead to?


----------



## ian (Feb 7, 2021)

Interapid101 said:


> I predict this thread will go ten pages and the last post will be in 2021.



It’s possible!


----------



## RonB (Feb 7, 2021)

I am now getting ready to start making knives, but I need to go back and read this entire thread again before I buy any, (more), steel. 

And thanks to all who have responded.


----------



## branwell (Feb 7, 2021)

Ron,

Here's the skinny on steel and knives.

In the simplest terms.

Different steels and heat treats suit different edge geometry's for a given cutting application.

You can make amazing or piss poor knives from any decent steel like AEBL, CPM 154, 52100, White 1, Blue 2, S35v, doesn't matter. It can be balling or it can suck.

The thing is to bring a particular steel, heat treat, blade geometry together for a particular use case. If you can do this, you will have made a great knife.

Here's a plan. Not the best plan perhaps, but reasonable starting point.

Get some AEBL ( its a good steel at a good price and its cheap to work with ) and make some chef knives. Make them a little fat and heat treated to Larrins formula exactly. Temper them a little differently to each other so you have a range of hardnesses to work with.

Once you have have your test samples, start testing and thin the blades down and try different edge geometry's as you go. You will learn a ton. Then alter the heat treat and start testing again 

Pro tip. Use a mist system on your grinder. AEBL / NitroV / 13c26 / 14c28 etc have low temper temperatures. As thin as chef knives are, its super easy to inadvertently friction heat them into the temper temp range and soften them.

Bottom line is this. There is no silver Bullitt steel for all configurations. Whether a knife is awesome or not depends on whether the knife maker had a mind expansive enough to understand what was needed and a will strong enough to do it.


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## Towerguy (Feb 7, 2021)

All of the steels currently in use are good. Sharpen it, use it, repeat.


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## Barmoley (Feb 7, 2021)

Towerguy said:


> All of the steels currently in use are good. Sharpen it, use it, repeat.


People like to say this, but it just isn't true. If it was true there would be only one steel. All the steels currently in use are good for something, but since we are discussing kitchen knives, and the OP question was pretty specific, some steels are better for intended use than others.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Feb 7, 2021)

Towerguy said:


> All of the steels currently in use are good. Sharpen it, use it, repeat.



**laughs in Rex121*


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## Jason183 (Feb 9, 2021)

White 2/blue2/HD2 is the best in my experience, ease of sharpening and the ability to hold that sharpness is my main preference


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## killerloop (Feb 9, 2021)

Blue 2 or 1.2519 or 125sc for me


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