# Stone for All Seasons?



## fimbulvetr (Mar 8, 2016)

I work in a small, neighborhood butcher shop with a sharpening "program" that has, until recently, mostly centered around a Chef's Choice electric wheel o' doom. I've been trying to church things up by sharpening on actual stones, but it's hard because we sharpen everything from the beloved family fishing shiv that granddaddy ground in Folsom to Shuns and Miyabis and, once, a Masamoto(!). 

Currently, I'm using a Gesshin 320 and a Shapton Pro 2000, supplemented by an atoma flattening plate that I use to set a bevel on real nightmares. This works... ok. Pretty well for Shuns, actually, less for Wusthofs.

The trouble is, the gap between 320 and 2000 is too much. I need a stone that fits in between for the higher end knives, and will be my finisher for old Henckels, knives made by Calphalon, and the better fishing shivs. It *has* to be splash-and-go and, though I'm paying out of pocket, this is a labor of like and a bit of fun for me, so I could spring for one of Jon's 1000 grit diamond stones if that's my best option. I'll just need to save my pennies and bide my time.

Right now, as I see it, my options are
Gesshin 600
Shapton 1000
JNS 1000 (I'm in US so shipping is no fun, but bearable)
Gesshin Diamond 1000.

Anything else? What stone will work best on crappy to decent steel? My gut says go Gesshin 600 (and when the Shapton wears out buy a Gesshin 3000 s&g), but my gut is a fanboy.


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## Jovidah (Mar 8, 2016)

Just for the sake of argument I'd say the Naniwa professional 1000 (the new Chosera) would also fit that bill pretty well. Splash & go and works on anything. Anyone who has it seems rather happy with it - and I know I certainly am. But its price in the US seems pretty steep (at least 80 dollars). At that pricelevel you could also get a Gesshin 1200 or 1500 S&G. No clue how they'd compare.


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## berko (Mar 8, 2016)

a shapton glass 1k feels better then a shapton pro 1k but is more expensive. jns 1k works good but not as fast as a shapton glass. gesshin diamond 1k has advantages, but i wouldn't fit it in your gap, because you can get faster stones with better feedback there. one of them is the chosera 800.

unfortunately i dont know the gesshin 600.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 8, 2016)

My crappy stainless is done first on a JNS 300 (or a King Deluxe 300) to be finished on a JNS 1k. If it is really bad steel i stay mainly on the 300 stones and use the 1k only to take the extra teeth. Recently, for a bit better quality stainless (cheaper Wustof/Henckels-like), it worked pretty well starting with JNS 1k and finish on a Binsui natural.


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## fimbulvetr (Mar 8, 2016)

I really like the idea of a Binsui, but I'm an utter noob where naturals are concerned. I also don't want anything I cannot replace quickly; the shop is small and my coworkers are spazzes.(Which is why soakers aren't an option.)

The Chosera/Naniwa now... That's a thought. As I said, I'm a Gesshin fanboy, but 600 seems awful low, and 1200 awful high. Shaptons are fine but no fun, makes sharpening sexy like driving a Toyota Camry. The Naniwa 800 or 1000 might be the way to go. 

Hrm. 

Thanks, all!


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## daveb (Mar 8, 2016)

At the risk of being labelled a heretic...

I do some charity knife sharpening for a culinary store. Most knives go on the grinder but I catch the problem children and anyone that wants to pay a premium for "hand sharpening". Lot of wusties, henks, global, kitchenaid, faberware, calphalon and any other pos I may have forgotten.

I start with two DMT Duo plates. XC/C and then the F/XF. They ain't pretty but they're fast. I'll finish most on a JNS 1.2K. Next. I'm far too cheap to be washing a good stone stone down the drain.


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## fimbulvetr (Mar 9, 2016)

A Coarse/Fine DMT might, for real, be a huge help for the forged, German-style monsters, especially the Kitchenaids and Calphalons. It's the sensible route, for sure. Thanks!


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## berko (Mar 9, 2016)

> The Naniwa 800 or 1000 might be the way to go.



chosera 800 > chosera 1k, especially when finishing with a shapton pro 2k.


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## Jovidah (Mar 9, 2016)

fimbulvetr said:


> I really like the idea of a Binsui, but I'm an utter noob where naturals are concerned. I also don't want anything I cannot replace quickly; the shop is small and my coworkers are spazzes.(Which is why soakers aren't an option.)
> 
> The Chosera/Naniwa now... That's a thought. As I said, I'm a Gesshin fanboy, but 600 seems awful low, and 1200 awful high. Shaptons are fine but no fun, makes sharpening sexy like driving a Toyota Camry. The Naniwa 800 or 1000 might be the way to go.
> 
> ...



A minor heads-up...the grits might be deceiving. Both Naniwa and Shapton use their own grit standard that differs from the normal JIS standard (and from eachother).
For reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj58bmHF7wCtdDg4RjBaOFJhZXI1RHFsM2F4N1JpVGc&usp=sharing

As you don't seem to like the Shapton you could also considering taking it out of the line-up as it seems to be a constraining factor.


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## fimbulvetr (Mar 9, 2016)

berko said:


> chosera 800 > chosera 1k, especially when finishing with a shapton pro 2k.



The Chosera 800 is, I believe, where I've landed, perhaps with a f/xf DMT as a back up for the real bruisers.

Also, Jovidah, thanks for pointing me at that grit chart. I had forgotten that existed. 

As for the Shapton 2000... meh? It's not bad enough to ditch it, but I don't love it enough to buy another.


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## Steampunk (Mar 9, 2016)

fimbulvetr said:


> I really like the idea of a Binsui, but I'm an utter noob where naturals are concerned. I also don't want anything I cannot replace quickly; the shop is small and my coworkers are spazzes.(Which is why soakers aren't an option.)
> 
> The Chosera/Naniwa now... That's a thought. As I said, I'm a Gesshin fanboy, but 600 seems awful low, and 1200 awful high. Shaptons are fine but no fun, makes sharpening sexy like driving a Toyota Camry. The Naniwa 800 or 1000 might be the way to go.
> 
> ...



To fill the gap between the 320 & the Shapton Pro 2K, I would actually consider a Naniwa 600 Professional/Chosera; I wouldn't be afraid of a 600 in the least... I jump from this stone to my 2K Pro all the time, and it's actually a really nice combo. The Naniwa 600 is 20-micron particle size, and the Shapton 2K is 7.35 micron, which is less than 3X jump, so not bad at all. I really like the Naniwa 800 Pro/Chosera stone; it's a nice 1-stone solution for moderate bevel setting, and jumps really nicely to a 3-4K finishing stone. However, with your current stone progression, the 600 fits in a little nicer, will refine coarse grit scratches faster, and if well deburred can leave an excellent aggressive edge for certain applications all on its own... Naniwa's are also hard and dish resistant like Shaptons, with a very consistent scratch pattern, but they feel much nicer and don't load up as much. 

Whilst I really like my White Binsui from Maksim @ JNS (As said above, it actually leaves a really nice edge on softer, low-carbide stainless if you work it right.), it's not a stone I would personally pick for a professional setting. It's a slow cutter, and to get a better edge from it than you would an 800-1K synthetic stone, you really need to spend some time on it and break down the abrasives a little bit (J-Nats are friable, silica abrasive stones; they get finer the more you sharpen on them.). I would stick with synthetics for work usage, possibly expanding your fine-grit stone lineup once you have a nice coarse/medium setup, and save the naturals for later on down the road for home usage. They're really fun. 

For your situation, I actually wouldn't necessarily be afraid of soaking stones. I keep mine permanently soaking in a little shoebox sized Rubbermaid plastic tote with a lid, which for me actually works out as being just as convenient as true splash & go, as they are always ready to go. For your situation, and since you're a Gesshin fan, I would actually look at replacing your Shapton 2K with the Gesshin 2K rather than trying to find a stone to fill the gap between your 2K Pro and 320 Gesshin... The Gesshin 2K cuts crazy fast for its grit level (Jumping to this from a 320 is no problem at all!), is more durable than a Naniwa Chosera/Pro (Magnesia stones can be a little finicky; not a problem for a home user, but maybe a little more than is ideal for a professional user.), and for me leaves a more aggressive, useful kitchen edge than the Shapton 2K's. It's a bit more money than simply adding a 600-800 Naniwa to your lineup, but in the long run you might enjoy a 2-stone Gesshin soaker lineup more than a mix of 3 S&G stones for your application. It certainly would be faster... Replace the 320 S&G with the 400S, and you'll have a real speed-demon combo! 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## mark76 (Mar 9, 2016)

I've seen many grit charts, but this one seems to be the most comprehensive! (It even includes stones that don't contain grits  ) I wonder what their sources are.

Thanks, Joris!


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## Jovidah (Mar 9, 2016)

Not sure about their sources. The original comes from bladeforums. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart
Apart from comparing the brands (and individual stones) I also find it useful to see how certain stones match up to for example stropping compounds.


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## fimbulvetr (Mar 9, 2016)

Steampunk said:


> For your situation, I actually wouldn't necessarily be afraid of soaking stones. I keep mine permanently soaking in a little shoebox sized Rubbermaid plastic tote with a lid, which for me actually works out as being just as convenient as true splash & go, as they are always ready to go. For your situation, and since you're a Gesshin fan, I would actually look at replacing your Shapton 2K with the Gesshin 2K rather than trying to find a stone to fill the gap between your 2K Pro and 320 Gesshin... The Gesshin 2K cuts crazy fast for its grit level (Jumping to this from a 320 is no problem at all!), is more durable than a Naniwa Chosera/Pro (Magnesia stones can be a little finicky; not a problem for a home user, but maybe a little more than is ideal for a professional user.), and for me leaves a more aggressive, useful kitchen edge than the Shapton 2K's. It's a bit more money than simply adding a 600-800 Naniwa to your lineup, but in the long run you might enjoy a 2-stone Gesshin soaker lineup more than a mix of 3 S&G stones for your application. It certainly would be faster... Replace the 320 S&G with the 400S, and you'll have a real speed-demon combo!
> 
> Hopefully this helps...
> 
> - Steampunk



I hear the words you are saying, and they speak to my geeky little heart, but I need to remember I'm just fancying up a local "Knives Sharpened- $ 4 each" operation. I started doing this to save the nice neighbor lady's well loved Henckels from the grinder. I'm keeping it up to maintain some self-respect, have a little fun, and, let's face it, to practice a skill I'd like to master. But the small space plus spazzy coworkers means a Rubbermaid box of soakers is just too much; splash-and-go stones can be tucked away stacked in a corner, and, even piled three-high, they stay safely out of sight and mind. Really, Daveb's approach is way more reasonable, but I have a liberal arts degree, a decade's experience in a pro-kitchen, and I work in a butcher shop because its fun, it's close, and bugger commuting. Reasonable is apparently not my thing.

For my own purposes, I use a permasoaked Gesshin 2k and Synth Natural for most things, and I love them, so they stay at home. I have a Cerax 320 at home as well and, if I had my druthers, it would go to work and the Gesshin 320 would return to daddy, but this arrangement works fine too. (I ended up with two 320 stones as a result of an accident that proved happy.) The natural stones call my name, but, yeah, again, they'd be a free time, stay-at-home thing.


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## Steampunk (Mar 9, 2016)

fimbulvetr said:


> I hear the words you are saying, and they speak to my geeky little heart, but I need to remember I'm just fancying up a local "Knives Sharpened- $ 4 each" operation. I started doing this to save the nice neighbor lady's well loved Henckels from the grinder. I'm keeping it up to maintain some self-respect, have a little fun, and, let's face it, to practice a skill I'd like to master. But the small space plus spazzy coworkers means a Rubbermaid box of soakers is just too much; splash-and-go stones can be tucked away stacked in a corner, and, even piled three-high, they stay safely out of sight and mind. Really, Daveb's approach is way more reasonable, but I have a liberal arts degree, a decade's experience in a pro-kitchen, and I work in a butcher shop because its fun, it's close, and bugger commuting. Reasonable is apparently not my thing.
> 
> For my own purposes, I use a permasoaked Gesshin 2k and Synth Natural for most things, and I love them, so they stay at home. I have a Cerax 320 at home as well and, if I had my druthers, it would go to work and the Gesshin 320 would return to daddy, but this arrangement works fine too. (I ended up with two 320 stones as a result of an accident that proved happy.) The natural stones call my name, but, yeah, again, they'd be a free time, stay-at-home thing.



Ah, okay... Your application at work makes more sense in my head now... 

You should have some fun with either a Naniwa Pro/Chosera 600 or 800. The 800 will be more use later on if you have aspirations for a 3K finisher, but the 600-2K jump is a good one, and the 600 has a slightly more 'buttery' feel. Both can be used splash & go, but really benefit from a short soak; not because they can't retain water or load up, but it helps to soften them a little bit so that they can build up some mud, cut faster, and feel smoother. However, they're a bit sensitive about being dried, which Shaptons and the Gesshin lacquer-sided splash & go's aren't. If they aren't dried evenly they can crack, so I set them on their side and rotate them, but given your situation this might be a little difficult. 

I don't know if you've ever used DMT's before on knives, but the 600/1200 Fine/Extra-Fine Dia-Flat is actually really nice all on its own for softer steel. They do wear out over time, and also need some breaking in before delivering their best (Flattening the backs of some chisels works really well for this.), but the 600 is a nice blend of speed/finish, and the 1200 should leave you with a nice toothy edge that can shave arm-hair (Again, with proper deburring.). Just remember to put a little dish soap in the water to break the surface tension when sharpening on DMT's. This also helps to minimize loading, although they'll still need to be periodically scrubbed with scouring powder to remove the swarf buildup...

Hopefully this helps. 

- Steampunk


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## fimbulvetr (Mar 9, 2016)

That helps a lot, actually. Also, as I talk this through, I'm beginning to be able to better differentiate between what's immediately applicable and what's just aspirational on my part. I think, after all, that having the DMT F/XF might be The perfect combination of useful and indestructible. The Chosera sounds like just what I want, but if drying it is any finickier than drying the G320, it's probably not practical (though if I do have a little extra cash, I might buy one just to play). If I can spin the sharpening into something a little bigger, my options may increase, but, for now, DMT might really work best. Despite its not being at all glamorous.

Thank you again!


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## Steampunk (Mar 9, 2016)

fimbulvetr said:


> That helps a lot, actually. Also, as I talk this through, I'm beginning to be able to better differentiate between what's immediately applicable and what's just aspirational on my part. I think, after all, that having the DMT F/XF might be The perfect combination of useful and indestructible. The Chosera sounds like just what I want, but if drying it is any finickier than drying the G320, it's probably not practical (though if I do have a little extra cash, I might buy one just to play). If I can spin the sharpening into something a little bigger, my options may increase, but, for now, DMT might really work best. Despite its not being at all glamorous.
> 
> Thank you again!



A set of three DMT's (Coarse, Fine, & Extra-Fine) + a pasted strop with some 3-6 micron diamond compound (Which will make deburring much faster given that you're sharpening cheaper steels at work, and are used to stones.) is a great setup for sub-58hrc western knives... Compact, durable, inexpensive, readily available, capable of munching through even the gummiest of stainless steels without complaint, and since they cut very precise bevels the edges off of them tend to feel a little sharper than the grit would suggest. 

Plates have a 'heavy industry' feel to them, but they have as much and as unique of a learning curve as any stone, so there's still some mastery to aspire to if you end up going that route... Not a good choice for hard, Japanese steels, but for soft European and Chinese steels they're a pretty good alternative.... If you shop around, you can get a much better price on them than on DMT's website, too. 

Chosera's do require a little more attention than the lacquer-sided Gesshins, or any of the Shaptons, as they do soak up a little bit of water over the course of sharpening, and prolonged water exposure starts to break down the binder which is why you have to be a little more careful about soaking or drying them than the aforementioned stones. However, they're much more enjoyable stones to use than Shaptons, and as long as you stay under the 3K mark they represent pretty good value. Definitely something to put on your wishlist, but maybe slightly less practical for work. 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Jovidah (Mar 10, 2016)

The necessary soak time is pretty nelegible for the lower Chosera's/Naniwa professionals. The 400 and 1000 I often just used running them under the tap for a while. The 5000 is definitly another store (needs a few minute soak), but that's not up for debate now.
Steampunk is right about them being somewhat particular when it comes to drying. The internet is filled with people having cracked stones - although this is often related to oversoaking or drying too quickly, and that can happen to resin stones as well. But if you really want a no-hassle solution and stones you can jus throw in the corner... well I'm not sure splash & go is really 'right' there.

Maybe this post from Jon is useful in explaining it: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...rashiyama-6000?p=289675&viewfull=1#post289675
The Chosera / Naniwa pro are magnesia stones. Most of the other splash & go stones are resinoid. All the soakers are usually vitrified / ceramic / clay-based.


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## fimbulvetr (Mar 10, 2016)

Jovidah said:


> The necessary soak time is pretty nelegible for the lower Chosera's/Naniwa professionals. The 400 and 1000 I often just used running them under the tap for a while. The 5000 is definitly another store (needs a few minute soak), but that's not up for debate now.
> Steampunk is right about them being somewhat particular when it comes to drying. The internet is filled with people having cracked stones - although this is often related to oversoaking or drying too quickly, and that can happen to resin stones as well. But if you really want a no-hassle solution and stones you can jus throw in the corner... well I'm not sure splash & go is really 'right' there.
> 
> Maybe this post from Jon is useful...



Yup. All this helps. The trouble, you see, is small space + I have days off. Things get moved and I can't always be there to turn a drying stone on its side or flip it over or what have you. Plus, the humidity in the shop can get pretty intense. Cool and clammy is how we roll, but, then, it can dry out overnight or Mondays when we close. 

The Shapton 2K ended up at work because I didn't use it at home AND it appears indestructible, so it was perfect. The Gesshin 320 followed as a solution to more problematic knives, and it has managed to hold its own as well. I usually dry it off pretty well, then wrap it carefully in a towel, and I've had no trouble so after several weeks (months?). 

All of this, plus all the IKEA, etc. knives my customers bring me, makes Chosera a less and less likely candidate and leave the DMT plates, or, I suppose, the unsexy Shapton, looking like the best option for my circumstances. 

And thanks, too, for reminding me of Jon's primer on splash-and-gos. Seeing all those people lamenting cracked Choseras makes me less likely to pick one up even experimentally. Pretty sure mine is the wrong environment for those.


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## Steampunk (Mar 10, 2016)

fimbulvetr said:


> Yup. All this helps. The trouble, you see, is small space + I have days off. Things get moved and I can't always be there to turn a drying stone on its side or flip it over or what have you. Plus, the humidity in the shop can get pretty intense. Cool and clammy is how we roll, but, then, it can dry out overnight or Mondays when we close.
> 
> The Shapton 2K ended up at work because I didn't use it at home AND it appears indestructible, so it was perfect. The Gesshin 320 followed as a solution to more problematic knives, and it has managed to hold its own as well. I usually dry it off pretty well, then wrap it carefully in a towel, and I've had no trouble so after several weeks (months?).
> 
> ...



Yeah, Chosera's probably aren't the best option for your professional situation, but at home they're perfectly manageable. Don't soak them for more than 5-10 minutes, if they look chalky after drying reduce your soaking time a little bit next time, and stand them on edge so they can dry evenly and rotate them, or prop them up on some pencils or something so that air can get to all sides and you'll be fine. They dry a lot quicker than most soaking stones, and are less porous than even what some classify as 'Splash & Go' stones, but aren't as impermeable as - say - Shaptons. I wouldn't rule them out for some experimentation at some future stage... I got these care tips from a woodworker who's actually worn out several of them, which is saying something given how dish resistant Chosera's are! 

If you end up going the Shapton route, I wouldn't fret... The 1K Pro and Glass Stones are both very fast cutters, and pretty care free. The Pro is surprisingly the more resistant to loading and dishing of the two, but it's easier to get a clean edge off the 1K Glass, it works better on a wider variety of steels, and the feedback is slightly better. It'll only last 1/2 as long, mind you, but that's the price you pay. The 4K HR Glass is kind of a peach in the range, and is pretty easy to get a burr-free edge off of on stainless. Little bit of tooth left, too... 

Shaptons might not be sexy, but Shigefusa use Glass Stones as part of their sharpening setup, along with the JNS Red Aoto, 6000 Matukusuyama, and a couple of nice looking Suitas. I've come to respect Shaptons more now that I've tried a wider variety of stones; they're actually pretty good stones, although for reasons I still don't totally understand they're hard to form an emotional attachment with. Maybe because they've become rather ubiquitous and westernized, so the mystery is dead? 

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Keith Sinclair (Mar 15, 2016)

The shapton's are good for portability and are S&G. Don't know if it suits your needs, I use medium stones the most by far. Since you like your gesshin's I use the Gesshin 1K x-tra large. Sharpens a wide range of knives from german stainless to high quality carbon & powder steels. Soaking is not a problem for me leave it in water at the school.


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