# Are any of the new "social" brands of knives decent quality?



## Tristor (Jul 21, 2020)

I don't expect that any of these knives are actually good, but I am curious if any of them are at least decent. I see constant ads on social media for cookware and knives from these types of companies, none of which I've bought anything from. I'm guessing collectively they run the gamut from "rebranded stuff off AliExpress marketed to upscale Millennials" to "Not amazing, but serviceably decent, and fair quality for the price". Seems there's been a proliferation of "kickstarter / social brands" which sell direct-to-consumer and rely largely on slick marketing, but is it all fluff?

The brands I'm thinking of are things like Misen, Made In, Aura, Material Kitchen, Brigade, Equal Parts, Potluck, Five Two, Bulat, etc.

I'm curious if there's been anybody on the forum that's reviewed and tried out any of these knives?


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## daveb (Jul 21, 2020)

A couple members have tried the Misen. The kickstarter very was crap. The production versions are worse.

Other faceybook offerings change daily. Would not have any of the lot.

Vnox, Wustie Pro, are solid at $50ish. 
There are some decent knives to be had around $100. Friends don't let friends shop FB.


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## Benuser (Jul 21, 2020)

daveb said:


> A couple members have tried the Misen. The kickstarter very was crap. The production versions are worse.
> 
> Other faceybook offerings change daily. Would not have any of the lot.
> 
> ...


And if you're fine with carbon steel, Pallarès Solsona.


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## esoo (Jul 21, 2020)

I wouldn't be surprised that the Tojiro Shirogami line beats any of those social brands and is quite inexpensive.


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## Tristor (Jul 21, 2020)

Has anyone tried Aura in particular? They seem to stand apart from the rest on pricing, with their knives being $500+


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## parbaked (Jul 21, 2020)

Tristor said:


> Has anyone tried Aura in particular? They seem to stand apart from the rest on pricing, with their knives being $500+







__





Aura chef Chakras


With all the "ugliest knife ever" threads I've seen around here I'm surprised I haven't seen these mentioned yet. I don't know much about these knives. Other than the fact that they are all over Instagram especially popular with the #truecooks crowd. (But they seem to know very little of knives)...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## ModRQC (Jul 21, 2020)

Quality information and reliable sources do not resonate well with social medias... 

To me, any product I see that I didn't browse or otherwise looked for is automatically treated with my most disdainful disinterest. And if I DID browse it, then I know my prices and where I'd be likely to get it - so the same spirit always applies.

When I just want to discover new knives broadly, I look around here.


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## reagan (Jul 21, 2020)

If all their money is going to marketing I wouldn’t expect much from the product.


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## parbaked (Jul 21, 2020)

I suspect that CM spends more money on her publicist than she spends on farrier rasps...


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## Tim Rowland (Jul 21, 2020)

parbaked said:


> I suspect that CM spends more money on her publicist than she spends on farrier rasps...



Best reply I have read in a while.


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## M1k3 (Jul 21, 2020)




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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2020)

M1k3 said:


>




Thoughtful review TBH. Although not my cup of tea—Misen is prob quantitatively better than the $10 knives my family buys at Ross's, but yeah, spend a little more and get a quantitatively better knife than Misen. Upside is that all these ""social" brands" potentially get neophytes knife users interested in a higher caliber of knives—everyone starts somewhere. Marketing for many of those brands is often impressive—admittedly I'm a fan of advertising, marketing, social media audience building and graphic design.


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## Tristor (Jul 21, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Thoughtful review TBH. Although not my cup of tea—Misen is prob quantitatively better than the $10 knives my family buys at Ross's, but yeah, spend a little more and get a quantitatively better knife than Misen. Upside is that all these ""social" brands" potentially get neophytes knife users interested in a higher caliber of knives—everyone starts somewhere. Marketing for many of those brands is often impressive—admittedly I'm a fan of advertising, marketing, social media audience building and graphic design.



To be fair, that's what ended up bringing me here to KKF along with a thread at CH where someone had linked here about Dalstrong (it's heavily used/featured on Guga Foods YouTube channel which I watch). Thankfully I did research before just buying into the marketing and I spent not much more and I think have gotten significantly better knives thanks to the advise of folks here. So even if these brands are terrible they are helping get new people interested in higher quality knives. My curiosity drives me to wonder on the sliding scale of quality where these trendy social media brands fall compared to others.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2020)

Tristor said:


> To be fair, that's what ended up bringing me here to KKF along with a thread at CH where someone had linked here about Dalstrong (it's heavily used/featured on Guga Foods YouTube channel which I watch). Thankfully I did research before just buying into the marketing and I spent not much more and I think have gotten significantly better knives thanks to the advise of folks here. So even if these brands are terrible they are helping get new people interested in higher quality knives. My curiosity drives me to wonder on the sliding scale of quality where these trendy social media brands fall compared to others.



TBH, I've never tried any of the knives you've mentioned. Regarding, "sliding scale of quality where these trendy social media brands fall compared to others," just remember the adage "you get what you pay for." All knives, whether a Kato, Misen Martell are sold on a business model to be profitable—"cheap" knives are able to be "cheap" because of corners being cut, be it in steel quality, labor, distribution method, etc. I've quickly learned that chasing bang-for-buck knives are often a false economy for me. Interestingly, knives I'm happiest with are those I could barely afford when I bought them.


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## Benuser (Jul 21, 2020)

If price is important, go for carbon steel. Not just because the steel is very cheap and plenty available, but more important: very easy to work with. Labour and abrasives are the major costs in producing knives. And marketing and distribution with some very well-known brands, of course...


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## TSF415 (Jul 21, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Thoughtful review TBH. Although not my cup of tea—Misen is prob quantitatively better than the $10 knives my family buys at Ross's, but yeah, spend a little more and get a quantitatively better knife than Misen. Upside is that all these ""social" brands" potentially get neophytes knife users interested in a higher caliber of knives—everyone starts somewhere. Marketing for many of those brands is often impressive—admittedly I'm a fan of advertising, marketing, social media audience building and graphic design.


I once found a shun parer in r2 for $12 at ross.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2020)

TSF415 said:


> I once found a shun parer in r2 for $12 at ross.


Awesome find! I actually enjoy browsing Ross and TJMAX, like looking at all the Celebrity Chef branded cookware that didn't make the cut for big department stores.


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## TSF415 (Jul 21, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Awesome find! I actually enjoy browsing Ross and TJMAX, like looking at all the Celebrity Chef branded cookware that didn't make the cut for big department stores.


Years ago they had no clue on how to price things. I think I picked up a few all clads for $20 a pop. Unfortunately they figured it out and now all you can get for $20 is a Guy Fieri pan. lol


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2020)

TSF415 said:


> Years ago they had no clue on how to price things. I think I picked up a few all clads for $20 a pop. Unfortunately they figured it out and now all you can get for $20 is a Guy Fieri pan. lol



Same true for antique and used book stores—used to find real steals! But now the internet helps them set prices. With knives, I often use BST to give me an idea of valuation.


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## BillHanna (Jul 21, 2020)

TSF415 said:


> Years ago they had no clue on how to price things. I think I picked up a few all clads for $20 a pop.


I recently told a coworker to go that way to find pans. I found out my info was outdated!


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## Twigg (Jul 21, 2020)

You can still find the occasional deal at TJ Maxx or Tuesday Mornings. My wife picked up a box of 6 Spode spice jars for $5.99 recently at TJ Maxx and they should have been much more. I do agree that the deals were better a few years ago though. Right now the inventory at a lot of stores is low due to the virus /slowdown, so shopping there hasn't been as much fun lately.


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## zizirex (Jul 22, 2020)

Ross, Marshall and TJ Maxx(or Winners in Canada or TK Maxx in EU) is the best way to buy deals on Pan and Pot. All-Clad, Lodge cast iron pan, some weird Copper plated skillet etc. On some occasions, you could find Boos Block cutting board as well.


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## Ruso (Jul 22, 2020)

parbaked said:


> I suspect that CM spends more money on her publicist than she spends on farrier rasps...


This is getting tiresome


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## Tristor (Jul 22, 2020)

Ruso said:


> This is getting tiresome



I'm a noob, so I'm not sure I even understand the quoted passage. Who is CM?


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## Twigg (Jul 22, 2020)

Tristor said:


> I'm a noob, so I'm not sure I even understand the quoted passage. Who is CM?



Chelsea Miller - She makes knives out of horse hoof rasps and gets paid a lot of money for them


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

Tristor said:


> I don't expect that any of these knives are actually good, but I am curious if any of them are at least decent. I see constant ads on social media for cookware and knives from these types of companies, none of which I've bought anything from. I'm guessing collectively they run the gamut from "rebranded stuff off AliExpress marketed to upscale Millennials" to "Not amazing, but serviceably decent, and fair quality for the price". Seems there's been a proliferation of "kickstarter / social brands" which sell direct-to-consumer and rely largely on slick marketing, but is it all fluff?
> 
> The brands I'm thinking of are things like Misen, Made In, Aura, Material Kitchen, Brigade, Equal Parts, Potluck, Five Two, Bulat, etc.
> 
> I'm curious if there's been anybody on the forum that's reviewed and tried out any of these knives?



There’s absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the business model of crowd funding a knife project; or using social media marketing savvy for audience building, with an aim to sell—it’s not in itself an indicator of poor quality knives. KeMaDi is an example of a company selling good knives direct, that relies mainly on IG and word of mouth for audience building. Kickstarter can be a wonderful platform for ambitious individuals to get their projects funded—it’s sad that some here don’t see the value of it, stuck in antiquated pre-2009 marketing thinking, times have changed, important for any knife maker to keep up, which many do. For individual craftsman, who might not be able to secure a business loan to get started—Kickstarter offers a great egalitarian path. True that many of the current Kickstarter knives aren’t my cup of tea—but I’m hopeful more quality knives come through the Kickstarter ranks. A good number of great knives In my collection were brought to my attention through IG, by individual makers or vendors. The platforms utilized by ‘social brands’ are just tools.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Chelsea Miller - She makes knives out of horse hoof rasps and gets paid a lot of money for them



I find her knives unpleasant to look at. However, kudos to her for her success, being smart with marketing, finding her audience of willing buyers—thus allowing her to make a living as a knife maker (not an easy task)! True there're probably many 'better' makers out there that have achieved far less financial success—but making/creating a knife is only a part of the equation, the maker needs to have good business sensibilities.


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## Twigg (Jul 22, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> I find her knives unpleasant to look at. However, kudos to her for her success, being smart with marketing, finding her audience of willing buyers—thus allowing her to make a living as a knife maker (not an easy task)! True there're probably many 'better' makers out there that have achieved far less financial success—but making/creating a knife is only a part of the equation, the maker needs to have good business sensibilities.


I agree with you. I would not buy one of her knives, but I am glad to see do well and fill a niche.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

Twigg said:


> I agree with you. I would not buy one of her knives, but I am glad to see do well and fill a niche.



TBH, I cringed when a little when first seeing here knives, but did appreciate the handmadeness of them, as well as her ability to garner press—and above all to SELL on her terms! Also, I gotta support her since she's a Brooklyn girl done good.


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## Tristor (Jul 22, 2020)

I looked at her website, her product, and watched a video series that Quickbooks did with her. Seems like she managed to really understand and capture the essence of the affluent Brooklyn hipster and make a product which people want, even if it's not an objectively good tool. She's pretty up front herself about the idea that her knives are selling a piece of art that captures an idea of simpler times and rustic enjoyment, more so than the end result itself. There's definitely a market for that as a lot of affluent young people in major urban centers have some level of self-awareness of how disconnected from reality they are in their daily life, and they wish to adopt the kitsch of hard-scrabble but wholesome rural environs. It's the same reason why people who live in the heart of major cities in Texas (expensive and urban) still decorate their homes like it's going to be featured on the cover of Southern Living, even though they aren't rural ranch homes with strong roots of Americana.

Finding a product/market fit is about more than just creating something which is technically brilliant, it's also about understanding that people buy through their emotions. Even here, even myself, I bought the knives I bought partly because I wanted quality tools, but partly because the tools I already had didn't evoke the sensation and emotional feeling I wanted in the kitchen while cooking as cooking has grown to be a more important part of my daily life. There's a desire in all of us, especially if we cook, especially as we become more disconnected from where our food comes from, to have a feeling of authenticity in our lives. Artisan crafts which are also useful can help to lend us that feeling of authenticity, even if a more utilitarian and soullessly made corporate product could do the job just as well.

There's a deep and abiding insecurity within all of us about the moral quality of the world we exist in and whether we're truly doing better just by finding new ways to increase the speed at which we exploit natural resources and each other. There's a reason that hipsters have also lead the way in the urban gardening, urban chicken, and urban farming movements. There's a connection which is undeniable between humanity and the things which sustain our life, food, water, sunlight, air.


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## inferno (Jul 22, 2020)

i heard kamikotos are good... "masters of tradition"


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

Tristor said:


> I looked at her website, her product, and watched a video series that Quickbooks did with her. Seems like she managed to really understand and capture the essence of the affluent Brooklyn hipster and make a product which people want, even if it's not an objectively good tool. She's pretty up front herself about the idea that her knives are selling a piece of art that captures an idea of simpler times and rustic enjoyment, more so than the end result itself. There's definitely a market for that as a lot of affluent young people in major urban centers have some level of self-awareness of how disconnected from reality they are in their daily life, and they wish to adopt the kitsch of hard-scrabble but wholesome rural environs. It's the same reason why people who live in the heart of major cities in Texas (expensive and urban) still decorate their homes like it's going to be featured on the cover of Southern Living, even though they aren't rural ranch homes with strong roots of Americana.
> 
> Finding a product/market fit is about more than just creating something which is technically brilliant, it's also about understanding that people buy through their emotions. Even here, even myself, I bought the knives I bought partly because I wanted quality tools, but partly because the tools I already had didn't evoke the sensation and emotional feeling I wanted in the kitchen while cooking as cooking has grown to be a more important part of my daily life. There's a desire in all of us, especially if we cook, especially as we become more disconnected from where our food comes from, to have a feeling of authenticity in our lives. Artisan crafts which are also useful can help to lend us that feeling of authenticity, even if a more utilitarian and soullessly made corporate product could do the job just as well.
> 
> There's a deep and abiding insecurity within all of us about the moral quality of the world we exist in and whether we're truly doing better just by finding new ways to increase the speed at which we exploit natural resources and each other. There's a reason that hipsters have also lead the way in the urban gardening, urban chicken, and urban farming movements. There's a connection which is undeniable between humanity and the things which sustain our life, food, water, sunlight, air.



As much as hipster culture annoys me—I do recognize the important contributions it makes to the knife community. Pardon my over-simplification—'hipster' culture is generally quite affluent, and has resulted in an audience hungry to buy unique, artisans/craftspeople-made products, from handmade charcuterie to handmade knives—I'm all for affluent people spending money on artisan made products. 

It's just a matter of time before we see some of the traditional Japanese knife makers take advantage of Kickstarter. I'm slowly seeing some Japanese makers become more involved with IG, both Takada and Jiro are quite active.


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## ian (Jul 22, 2020)

One funny thing about CM's knives I just noticed is that the finish on the blade road is also.... rustic. There are still grind marks, and also sandpaper scratches in all different directions. I assume this was a choice? I guess her other artistic choices are so bizarre to me that it very well may be... 









Chef Knife — CHELSEA MILLER KNIVES


Chef Knife **Due to current high demand, please allow up to 12 months for this knife to be produced and delivered.** For expedited production, please select from the options below. High carbon steel repurposed from a Vermont Farrier's horseshoe rasp. This handle is W




www.chelseamillerknives.com


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

ian said:


> One funny thing about CM's knives I just noticed is that the finish on the blade road is also.... rustic. There are still grind marks, and also sandpaper scratches in all different directions. I assume this was a choice? I guess her other artistic choices are so bizarre to me that it very well may be...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, very rough and rustic—but my TF denka also has some very rough and wonky areas. Not the type of knife I'd ever imagine having a place in a serious kitchen—but that's not her clientele. I can see how her knives appeal to collectors of artisan made objects—fun conversation pieces used in a home kitchen. Main selling hook is authorship, a knife made by Chelsea Miller. Which I understand, in that I often value knowing the person who made my knife—digging when there's a real engagement, seeing process shots of the knife being made.

Remarkably, Chelsea Miller knives are at the same price point as my Jiro and TF.


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## ian (Jul 22, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Yes, very rough and rustic—but my TF denka also has some very rough and wonky areas. Not the type of knife I'd ever imagine having a place in a serious kitchen—but that's not her clientele. I can see how her knives appeal to collectors of artisan made objects—fun conversation pieces used in a home kitchen. Main selling hook is authorship, a knife made by Chelsea Miller. Which I understand, in that I often value knowing the person who made my knife—digging when there's a real engagement, seeing process shots of the knife being made.



Yea, it's just that TF has performance going for it, so you can say "oh, they didn't concentrate so much on appearance, just on making a great tool". Her knives don't seem to be made to be tools, so I immediately think there'd be a lot of thought and care put into the f&f, since that is basically all there is. But I guess `rustic’ is a particular look, and maybe she thinks that a mirror polished blade road would look weird up against the cheese grater. Or maybe she is operating at a level way above us, and every individual scratch mark on the blade road is put there with great meaning and purpose.


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## M1k3 (Jul 22, 2020)

ian said:


> Or maybe she is operating at a level way above us, and every individual scratch mark on the blade road is put there with great meaning and purpose.


Like a fine dining plate!


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## ian (Jul 22, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Like a fine dining plate!



Woah, I always thought the scratches on the plates were from the dishwasher. Mind blown.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

ian said:


> Yea, it's just that TF has performance going for it, so you can say "oh, they didn't concentrate so much on appearance, just on making a great tool". Her knives don't seem to be made to be tools, so I immediately think there'd be a lot of thought and care put into the f&f, since that is basically all there is. But I guess `rustic’ is a particular look, and maybe she thinks that a mirror polished blade road would look weird up against the cheese grater. Or maybe she is operating at a level way above us, and every individual scratch mark on the blade road is put there with great meaning and purpose.



Yeah, with TF denka I dig the roughness and wonkiness on a knife that kicks-ass in the kitchen—performance high on my priorities for a knife! Guess what I was trying to convey was that I wouldn't be surprised is many of Chelsea Miller's collectors don't really use her knives much in the kitchen—which is fine, I know Kato owner's that don't use them. 

You ever seen the Philippe Starck "Juicy Salif"? Object of desire for many, won pretty much every design award in existence—but try using it to juice lemons/oranges, they really suck. Look cool as hell, but valued more for its aesthetics and innovative design—same with Miller's knives in that they're more sculptural objects than practical tools.


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## inferno (Jul 22, 2020)

workmanship doesn't appear to be very high with these imo.


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## ian (Jul 22, 2020)

The serrated spine could be useful. Make it a little more dramatic and you have a gyuto and a breadknife in one.


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## Twigg (Jul 22, 2020)

I think it is on purpose. I believe it is designed to fit an ideal or image that she and her clients have regarding a rustic handcrafted knife. I think the problem is that the ideal is nonsensical outside of the artistic realm. I don't see how this could be construed as anything other than art that looks and probably (minimally) functions as a tool.


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## parbaked (Jul 22, 2020)

The money she saves on raw materials and belts is impressive!


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## RDalman (Jul 22, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> There’s absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the business model of crowd funding a knife project; or using social media marketing savvy for audience building, with an aim to sell—it’s not in itself an indicator of poor quality knives. KeMaDi is an example of a company selling good knives direct, that relies mainly on IG and word of mouth for audience building. Kickstarter can be a wonderful platform for ambitious individuals to get their projects funded—it’s sad that some here don’t see the value of it, stuck in antiquated pre-2009 marketing thinking, times have changed, important for any knife maker to keep up, which many do. For individual craftsman, who might not be able to secure a business loan to get started—Kickstarter offers a great egalitarian path. True that many of the current Kickstarter knives aren’t my cup of tea—but I’m hopeful more quality knives come through the Kickstarter ranks. A good number of great knives In my collection were brought to my attention through IG, by individual makers or vendors. The platforms utilized by ‘social brands’ are just tools.


Are the Kemadi knives any good? Russian but unknown right? Are they handmade?


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## Twigg (Jul 22, 2020)

ian said:


> The serrated spine could be useful. Make it a little more dramatic and you have a gyuto and a breadknife in one.


Can you imagine what it would do to a knife block as that rasp drags when inserted? Probably need a rubber lined magnet strip, or better yet, frame it and hang it in the kitchen.


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## BillHanna (Jul 22, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Can you imagine what it would do to a knife block as that rasp drags when inserted? Probably need a rubber lined magnet strip, or better yet, frame it and hang it in the kitchen.


Does it come with a friction fit saya?


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## Twigg (Jul 22, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Are the Kemadi knives any good? Russian but unknown right? Are they handmade?


Are those the same as the Bulat Knives?


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## PappaG (Jul 22, 2020)

dumb question: How would a pinch grip feel with a CM knife?


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## RDalman (Jul 22, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Are those the same as the Bulat Knives?


I believe so? Ke(kevin-murdersharp)Ma(matteo/preizzo)Di(dirch)


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## BillHanna (Jul 22, 2020)

PappaG said:


> dumb question: How would a pinch grip feel with a CM knife?


After a full shift; not at all.


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## inferno (Jul 22, 2020)

PappaG said:


> dumb question: How would a pinch grip feel with a CM knife?



probably like a hedgehog


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Are the Kemadi knives any good? Russian but unknown right? Are they handmade?



Yes, handmade, I've seen process shots of mine from a rough piece of metal to final knife. I don't know the names of the Russian blacksmiths—it's perhaps a similar business model to a lot of Japanese companies where they'd utilize several talented makers to produce for a specific brand. Several KKF members have gotten their hands on KeMaDis, they could probably speak more about characteristics of the knife in use. The one I had was very nicely made, great f&f—bulat steel core clad in reclaimed Russian railroad tracks, black hornbeam and reindeer handle. It's a collaborative project—Russian blacksmith, handle by Graydon, final sharpening and QC by Kasumi Kev, in addition to a couple of others involved—an ambitious project working with a number of steels rare outside of Russia, and custom designing some handsome profiles and finish options. My knife was beautiful, no complaints, Kev gave me OOTB prob the sharpest I've received—but I sold it before really using it, because it came in at the same time as a bunch of other knives, and I realized I had too many 225 mid-weight gyutos, so moved it one to someone who'd use it.


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## Matt Zilliox (Jul 22, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> I find her knives unpleasant to look at. However, kudos to her for her success, being smart with marketing, finding her audience of willing buyers—thus allowing her to make a living as a knife maker (not an easy task)! True there're probably many 'better' makers out there that have achieved far less financial success—but making/creating a knife is only a part of the equation, the maker needs to have good business sensibilities.


surely shes not the actual knife maker? just a lady who poses in nice clothes with clean hands at an anvil. or perhaps this has been discussed, if so, my bad. 

i mean as tools, the blade shapes make no sense.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

RDalman said:


> I believe so? Ke(kevin-murdersharp)Ma(matteo/preizzo)Di(dirch)



No. KeMaDi does offer knives forged in a Russian steel called 'Bulat.' 

But KeMaDi is not the same as "Bulat Kitchen," a company making cheap knives in VG-10.








A better chef knife


Good materials, painstaking design, constant cooking. Starting with a layered damascus chef knife, we are making beautiful, premium kitchenware more affordable.




www.bulatkitchen.com


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## DitmasPork (Jul 22, 2020)

Matt Zilliox said:


> surely shes not the actual knife maker? just a lady who poses in nice clothes with clean hands at an anvil. or perhaps this has been discussed, if so, my bad.
> 
> i mean as tools, the blade shapes make no sense.



I'm sure she makes the knives, why in the world would you doubt that??? I have never questioned if Bryan, Robin, Joe or Marko actually makes their knives—I just trust that they do.

Doesn't matter if they aren't the most well designed tools—that's not the entire point of her knives. (see earlier comments I've made)

They're essentially art pieces, that can also be used as tools. She has her fan base.

CM has also benefited from collaborating with a good photographer.


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## tomsch (Jul 23, 2020)

I can see the work of art approach but $800? Good that she has a fan base so you have to give her credit for carving out that market.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 23, 2020)

tomsch said:


> I can see the work of art approach but $800? Good that she has a fan base so you have to give her credit for carving out that market.



Pricing is subjective for buyers. $800 is the right price for a CM chef knives—it would be the wrong price if they didn't sell. She's not producing "bang-for-buck" knives. 

For some, $800 is nothing. I had a customer come in who whipped out a Centurion card, didn't even blink at dropping a few grand. Some people are fine spending $30 a pound for a ribeye steak—I'm more inclined to buy "choice grade" on sale from the supermarket meat aisle.


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## Kristoffer (Jul 23, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Are the Kemadi knives any good? Russian but unknown right? Are they handmade?



As brief as my experience is limited; yes.

Full disclosure, I’ve gotten to borrow two different prototypes from @preizzo . The first one was a 195 ~gyuto with a bulat core clad in wrought iron. Spectacular to look at (banding galore) and took the most dramatic patina, becoming broodingly dark from the edge on in. A quite nimble knife overall. The second one is a 240 gyuto in bulat steel only. Relatively heavy/forward balance, with a profile a bit similar to one of Jonas’ knives. This one has the best grind I’ve gotten to try. Very impressive combination of gliding through produce and food release. I’m guessing a convex grind, helped by weight to make cuts feel easy.

Take all of that with a generous helping of salt though, given my limited experience.


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## orangehero (Jul 23, 2020)

bulat is the russian word for wootz steel


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## preizzo (Jul 24, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Are the Kemadi knives any good? Russian but unknown right? Are they handmade?


Robin any info you need just ask me , Don't be shy


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## Eitan78 (Jul 24, 2020)

T


RDalman said:


> Are the Kemadi knives any good? Russian but unknown right? Are they handmade?


The short answer is yes and they are fantastic knives.


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## wind88 (Jul 24, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Are the Kemadi knives any good? Russian but unknown right? Are they handmade?



My personal experience of one example in bulat is the f&f is not the greatest for the price and very sticky due to the combination of very thin flat grind and etched finish. The steel was very toothy with lots of bite but can’t take a very polished edge. I guess it’s the nature of the bulat.


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## juice (Jul 25, 2020)

Well, that makes for an interesting start to page three of the thread...


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## wind88 (Jul 25, 2020)

In my unqualified opinion, I love my Evan and TFs very much. The purchase experience was always pleasant as well. But of course take this with grain of salt. I’m certainly not qualified to share my personal opinion or evaluation of kitchen knives. After all, knife is not life for me.


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## Gregmega (Jul 25, 2020)

There’s a pretty massive divide between makers who sell via Social’ and the Kickstarter bunch. Really 2 separate animals. IG businesses are usually small and built aerodynamically for maximum cadence with a DTC model. Kickstarters are basically the info-mercials of the internet age. One is more artisanal DTC, the other, volume production.

That doesn’t mean either are good tho. Or bad really I guess. Some people like their cucumbers pickled.


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## tchan001 (Jul 25, 2020)

I normally like my cucumbers picked rather than eating them off the vine.


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## orangehero (Jul 25, 2020)

tchan001 said:


> I normally like my cucumbers picked rather than eating them off the vine.



aint nothing like a munching on a sun-warmed cuke while puttering around the garden


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## Gregmega (Jul 25, 2020)

Ain’t nothing like slicing a lightly pickled cucumber with a honyaki custom purchased off an IG smith.


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## M1k3 (Jul 25, 2020)




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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 25, 2020)

Normal service resumed. Back to critiquing CM and her business model.


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## cotedupy (Jul 25, 2020)

Oh my word. I just googled CM* knives and they're quite something eh!


(And after that I also googled who she is, so now I'm bang up to date with what everyone's talking about.)


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## cotedupy (Jul 25, 2020)




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## Elliot (Jul 25, 2020)

To jump in on the KeMaDi thing, my experience:

I have two and will have more. That's the TL;DR of it.

To elaborate further, I find the Bulat steel to have among the highest level of retention I have ever experienced. As a home cook, not super important, I can attest, but a nice factoid. I haven't even stropped that mofo since getting it from Kev, who of course sent it Murder Sharp.

I also have a staino knife from them, which is, perhaps the best staino I have experienced. Only thing that compares is Yoshikane SLD. Those that know how incredible that steel is should understand.

But, more than anything else, it's about the people behind it. I, like a lot of you I think, have more than enough knives to cut with and have purchased knives with performance as NOT the top priority. Otherwise, none of us would have a knife that costs more than $300 or so. So it's about supporting ethical guys who TOTALLY know knives. I don't think anyone could make a reasonable argument that people like Kev and Matteo don't know knives.

And, one of the least talked about parameters of quality I think we all need to admit: How many have you seen on BST? I know I have seen one. Ever.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 25, 2020)

Gregmega said:


> There’s a pretty massive divide between makers who sell via Social’ and the Kickstarter bunch. Really 2 separate animals. IG businesses are usually small and built aerodynamically for maximum cadence with a DTC model. Kickstarters are basically the info-mercials of the internet age. One is more artisanal DTC, the other, volume production.
> 
> That doesn’t mean either are good tho. Or bad really I guess. Some people like their cucumbers pickled.



I have a rather positive (or perhaps neutral) view of crowd-funding platforms, the main ones being Kickstarter, Go Fund Me and Indie GoGo. They're just platforms. What I love about them is the egalitarian aspect of funding—a way for people with a good idea to get funded, especially helpful for enterprises that would generally get laughed out of a bank if seeking a loan—as securing a bank loan has become more difficult during the last decade.

Sure, there are lots of wacky knives on crowd-funding sites—but there also many start-up restaurants, artisans looking to fund their passion. I've donated to crowd-funding campaigns, if only for understanding what it's like to invest everything you have into getting a business off the ground—[full disclosure: wife and I have invested everything we have into our business, and are constantly thinking up ideas to bring in revenue, ...same as restaurants and any other space forced to temporarily close due to covid restrictions.].

Yes, 'info-mercial' is not inaccurate. But every post of anyone selling kitchen knives, high-end knife rolls, whetstones is an advertisement—even a blacksmith that's a one-man-show posts on IG to advertise and sell is knives. I appreciate the element of a good crowd-funding campaign that gives more background about a product than IG. With crowd-funding campaigns there's a tonne of competition to attract backers—one way to increase the potential for getting 'backers,' is hard work, putting in the thought, maybe collaborating with a writer and photographer and videographer to make a good go at it, and many, many hours of pounding the virtual pavement. A half-ass attempt at crowd-funding goes no where. Putting together a good crowd-funding campaign is akin to making a great gyuto or sublime knife roll—takes a lot of hard work. Guess what I'm trying to say, is that I generally support small businesses making kitchen knives—even if they aren't knives I'm interested in having.

As I mentioned earlier in my comment, Kickstarter is just a platform. Surprised not more young, talented, ambitious makers of J-style knives haven't put in the hard work to take advantage of crowd-funding to get their business up and running.


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## dclak (Jul 25, 2020)

Some stuff about kemadi...

*Facts...*
They are made by this russian guy...
instagram: 
https://www.instagram.com/ito_matsu/

youtube: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIuO-UVthgs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTQuDMZGV5Q 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTQuDMZGV5Q









You can see the kemadi logo on these videos and the guy also brands his own logo on some kitchen knives too (price below)...

Robin Dalman is correct that kemadi basically stands for the 3 people behind it which is (ke)v, (ma)tteo, (di)rch.

*Where it gets interesting...*
The people - don't know them personally but have been following them on IG (and I'm sure many here are as well) - you can easily see that the love for their non kemadi knives are strong and the word strong may be an under-statement
For example one of the 3 people (ke)v - his love for yannick, halcyon forge, watanabe/toyama and mazaki is pretty clear - especially so when you view his IG stories too... if they are such great knives/steel it is quite interesting that even the owner behind kemadi doesn't use a kemadi much. 
Another example for (ma)tteo - his love for all knives is pretty clear as well - a quick tour of his IG and his IG stories will show you his praise for almost every maker. We also know he is the undisputable mazaki king! Again, if kemadi are such great knives/steel then wouldn't the person with the passion behind the brand be supporting their own products? It's almost like Tim Cook using an android... See and judge for yourself...

The pricing - here is a link where the russian maker replies to a price inquiry...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMps95vafrs 





If you have owned one kemadi before at a particular price - here is something to consider, yes a dammy one for 200 USD.

Some goods - Bulat is naturally serrated so it will be very toothy (and typically stays that way even with the finest stone) - great if that's what you are looking for, (ke)v makes knives really sharp and polish looks great! Perhaps Larrin can shed some more light on this steel.

Why none on BST? - It may be because of a few reasons but one of them may be because just only a few people have one (excluding the 3 people behind it). Things that go up on BST doesn't mean it's not good - it just means there are more of them out there. I personally see a good number of western makers make their appearance there but I think many of them are great like Halcyon Forge, Catchside, Raquin, etc. Support the actual makers and not the smokes and mirrors!

Now, if you really want a bulat - let's do a KKF group buy with the actual smith and support him directly - any russian speakers here?


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## Gregmega (Jul 25, 2020)

Yeah D- I hear ya. I just found it weird that the OP kinda lumped the 2 together. I feel like they couldn’t be more opposite as business models go.


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## bozotheclown (Jul 25, 2020)

is that Eitan79 guy the kemadi owner? super aggressive just like in his bst posts. wonder whats up with that.
Some loonies in this forum, glad I joined.


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## RDalman (Jul 25, 2020)

Looks like my questions where taken as remarks in a bad way by some. They where not intended to be, only those questions I had after looking quickly on the account. I just don't follow others really well. I didn't assume one way or the other, I sincerely wanted kkfs input to hear what kindof knives they are, as the bulat is interesting, and I got that. 

But on general on social media - knives. I think asking these kind of questions can be important if it matters to you as potential customer. And should absolutely not be controversial to ask imo. Many higher end /cost makers only present finished work and no further info on how or who made it. And that can be 100% fine also don't get me wrong.


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## Nagakin (Jul 25, 2020)

Hard to beat Forge to Table with a little work for $76. Holds an acute edge and I'm sure you can get a decent polish if you tried. Cuts with the best of them and has better food release than way more expensive knives. Actually makes me mad on some level. I'd happily use it, crowdfunded or not.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 25, 2020)

Gregmega said:


> Yeah D- I hear ya. I just found it weird that the OP kinda lumped the 2 together. I feel like they could be more opposite as business models go.



Exactly! Two very different things. Kickstarter just a business model, for raising passive income to fund something, through a fund-raising platform based on the internet, but often uses 'social media' to attract attention. Whereas Social Media, are generally platforms for socializing through the internet media—IG, FB, TT, etc. Of course there's some gray areas.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 25, 2020)

I like this GoFundMe campaign.

"Chase's Birthday Knife Fund!" Goal is raising $950 to buy him a Mr. Itou knife.








Chase's Birthday Knife Fund!, organized by Sophia Elliott


Chase's birthday is February 15th, and this year he deserves something special. If you … Sophia Elliott needs your support for Chase's Birthday Knife Fund!



www.gofundme.com


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## bozotheclown (Jul 25, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> I like this GoFundMe campaign.
> 
> "Chase's Birthday Knife Fund!" Goal is raising $950 to buy a him a Mr. Itou knife.
> 
> ...



web-based pan-handling. 2020 is weird place to be


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 25, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> I like this GoFundMe campaign.
> 
> "Chase's Birthday Knife Fund!" Goal is raising $950 to buy a him a Mr. Itou knife.
> 
> ...


A real mommy's-boy tear-jerker. Paper rounds must be soooo last century


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## DitmasPork (Jul 25, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> A real mommy's-boy tear-jerker. Paper rounds must be soooo last century


Me thinks it’s sweet. Only birthday knife I ever got was a Swiss Army for my 16th.


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## Gregmega (Jul 25, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Exactly! Two very different things. Kickstarter just a business model, for raising passive income to fund something, through a fund-raising platform based on the internet, but often uses 'social media' to attract attention. Whereas Social Media, are generally platforms for socializing through the internet media—IG, FB, TT, etc. Of course there's some gray areas.


Ok bro


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## DitmasPork (Jul 25, 2020)

Gregmega said:


> Ok bro


Sorry, slow morning, drank too much coffee.


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## wind88 (Jul 25, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Looks like my questions where taken as remarks in a bad way by some. They where not intended to be, only those questions I had after looking quickly on the account. I just don't follow others really well. I didn't assume one way or the other, I sincerely wanted kkfs input to hear what kindof knives they are, as the bulat is interesting, and I got that.
> 
> But on general on social media - knives. I think asking these kind of questions can be important if it matters to you as potential customer. And should absolutely not be controversial to ask imo. Many higher end /cost makers only present finished work and no further info on how or who made it. And that can be 100% fine also don't get me wrong.



Agree that transparency never hurts at least from a consumer perspective.


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## wind88 (Jul 25, 2020)

dclak said:


> Some stuff about kemadi...
> 
> *Facts...*
> They are made by this russian guy...
> ...



Oh wow. I would be down for a group buy if someone is going to organize one to try the stainless version.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 25, 2020)

dclak said:


> Some stuff about kemadi...
> 
> *Facts...*
> They are made by this russian guy...
> ...



• I've never held a knife made by Ito Matsu, nice fella though, from my engagement with him on IG. He's definitely not the blacksmith who forged the KeMaDi that I had—Ito lives on the other side of Russia, about 3000–4000 miles away.

• To my knowledge, KeMaDi works with a few blacksmiths in Russia that they had selected to work with. The KeMaDi I had was forged to a very high standard, one of the best looking knives I've had.

• Bringing up the price difference between Ito and KeMadi is silly and irrelevant IMO—it's like how Kochi is made by a workshop to JKI standards, etc. The Russian blacksmiths working with KeMaDi produce knives to KeMaDi specs and standards. The knife I had was a Sanjo inspired profile designed by the KeMaDi people.

• Whether or not knives be a particular maker appear on BST, or if it's any indication of quality is all conjecture.

• Your last comment "let's do a KKF group buy with the actual smith and support him directly," is short-sighted, self-serving, and incredibly disrespectful of some long-standing members of the knife community—that sentiment would be the same as if you said something like "let's all do a group buy from Nakaya Heiji for cheaper than what you pay at JKI." Love or dislike KeMaDi knives—the people involved are some of most passionate about knives I know, and have invested much work, research and knowledge into the project.

• The IG posts of Kev and Matteo, and your perception of their fave knives in relation to KeMaDi is irrelevant. Unfair to pigeon hole one's taste based on IG—best way to find out is to ask either Kev or @preizzo directly, better than projecting an opinion onto them.

• "Support the actual makers and not the smokes and mirrors!" It's very small-minded to disregard vendors, and the work they do, vetting out makers, introducing obscure makers. Fact is that many makers don't want to deal directly with the public—paperwork, shipping, etc., a major pain. With KeMaDi, you are supporting the actual makers—with a bonus of Gray's handle and Kev's sharpening.


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## TSF415 (Jul 25, 2020)

I own a restaurant and eat at other restaurants. I think my restaurant is great but I like restaurants. I don't think you shouldn't eat at my restaurant because I promote other restaurants. lol. Some lines of logic 'round these parts are funny.

The fact that I follow their ig and they show off such a wide range of knives is actually what interests me in their brand. Like "hummmm, maybe these guys know something about knives. Curious how they'd spec out a custom"


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## Gregmega (Jul 25, 2020)

-Ditmas drinks a ton of coffee. Like A LOT of coffee.

-It’s been really slow this morning in Brooklyn, to be expected given the current state of affairs outside. So coffee is the whole schedule at the moment.

-There’s at least 3 Russian smiths. They usually make knives. Some of them are good, some are, like, whatevs.

-Bulat.

-None of the aforementioned bullet points have anything to do with the OP’s question, and that’s ok, cause, coffee.

-Knives.

-Some smiths take direct custom orders cause that’s how they make money. Some smiths make private label knives for clients to their specs. Sometimes they make them in bulat. Whatever that means.

-Bulat. Coffee. Repeat.

-Thanks for coming to my TED talk.


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## coffeelover191919 (Jul 25, 2020)

There are nearly unlimited general purpose (chefs knives / gyutos) on the market at all price ranges with tried and true and have withstood the test of time. Why are people taking risks / falling for the marketing of a company thats untested, but can produce a good advertisement?

Under $50, there is no match for a Victorinox / (Debatable) Wusthof Pro.
Under $100, lots of Wusthof Classic, Henkels, Shun, Tojiro, Kintaro, Miyabi
Under $200, Anryu, any Kato, Takamura, Yoshimune, Itto-Ryu and a crap ton of other options.

There is simply no reason to buy a facebook or "japanese" made in china knife.


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## ian (Jul 25, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> that sentiment would be the same as if you said something like "let's all do a group buy from Nakaya Heiji for cheaper than what you pay at JKI."



Fwiw, I like ordering direct from Heiji. It’s a good deal! You just have to be aware that you’re likely gonna get either a project knife or one with suboptimal f&f. Not that they don’t cut well ootb. It’s a different thing from Gesshin Heiji, though.


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## tchan001 (Jul 25, 2020)

I've only participated in one crowdfunding campaign for a kitchen knife and have only had happy results 
Back a few years ago when a young knifemaker was trying to build a workshop somewhere in Washington State, I contributed to his Indiego campaign.
Here is a picture of my happy result.


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## brooksie967 (Jul 26, 2020)

Wow. So much butthurt here too! Kemadi is turning out really great looking knives and what they are doing is no different than any of the Japanese brands that contract Smith, sharpener, handle maker etc. This is a business model that's been around for decades but for some reason when a bunch of western guys do it there's a problem. Some people should just go pound sand .


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## brooksie967 (Jul 26, 2020)

dclak said:


> Some stuff about kemadi...
> 
> *Facts...*
> They are made by this russian guy...
> ...



I know who to contact if I ever need some private investigative work done.....

Support him directly? That's what these three guys are already doing. If it wasn't a good deal for the Smith then I don't think he'd be doing it. 

Also, you're weird.


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## M1k3 (Jul 27, 2020)




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## juice (Jul 27, 2020)

juice said:


> Well, that makes for an interesting start to page three of the thread...


Little did I know...


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## M1k3 (Jul 27, 2020)

Pepperidge Farm remembers.


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## juice (Jul 27, 2020)

This reminds me of how little I miss primary school.


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## juice (Jul 27, 2020)

Eitan78 said:


> It’s not primitive at all, I use those phrases every day buddy.


How does using primitive insults every day make them not primitive?


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## Moooza (Jul 27, 2020)

Feels like the beginning of the end....


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## wind88 (Jul 27, 2020)

Wow is all I can say. Just a little reminder to all that we’re talking about just kitchen knives here. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 4, 2020)

ian said:


> Fwiw, I like ordering direct from Heiji. It’s a good deal! You just have to be aware that you’re likely gonna get either a project knife or one with suboptimal f&f. Not that they don’t cut well ootb. It’s a different thing from Gesshin Heiji, though.


Yes, I know it’s a good deal. I’ve considered one, but TBH, I’m impatient and the 4 month wait dissuades me.


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## tchan001 (Aug 22, 2020)

I bought a Kemadi recently. It's shipping from the US so don't know how long it will take to arrive in Hong Kong. I like bulat/wootz and I have a wootz integral from Peter Burt from back when he was with Dragon's Breath Forge. I look forward to my more rustic looking mono bulat Kemadi. Supporting great guys who have passion for their work.


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