# Stropping on medium grit stones



## suntravel

For me the best way to get rid of burrs ist to do light short strokes edge leading, like sharpening about 45° to the edge. Gives a fine mikroserration and lots of bite.












In comparison stropped edge trailing along the edge you get an wire edge with almost no bite and min. 50% less time on the board for the next touchup...











With finer stones the difference ist not so huge, but if you are looking for a toothy edge i would go with an steep angle edge leading.

Regards

Uwe


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## miggus

Hey Uwe,

thanks for the info! Could you please point out how you see that there is a wire edge in the second picture? I'm not seeing it, hence the question.


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## Matus

Uwe, just a side note: while high resolution microscope images are often shared on KMS, they are new stuff here on KKF. We may need a little introduction to understand what we are looking at. Please be partient with us (that 100% includes me). Thank you


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## kayman67

Edge leading is the method described in very old guides and the one I went for myself.


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## daveb

Is that a gizmo pictured with a knife attached? Blasphemy!


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## suntravel

The arrows are pointed to an very thin burr pulled out in the direction from the edge. Will maybe break away on the board or fold to one side and leaves a not so sharp edge after a few cuts.

Would be better visible with an REM, but have not one handy 

Regards

Uwe


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## stringer

Uwe,
On this one we agree on everything. Well almost everything. Except I would never have time for a gizmo. And my freehand may not be able to beat it, well that's not true. My freehand is better because I thin and convex as I go. But, the important part, that we can agree on is:
Edge leading high angle low pressure passes is the best practice to remove final residual burr.
I have believed this to be fact for quite some time and my own empirical research corroborates the theory. Your photos are fantastic. I agree with you that it doesn't matter as much for finer stones, or Jnats, because there is less risk of a wire edge because there isn't as much burr forming potential. But for finishing on medium grit synthetics, it's best to finish with the 45 degree edge leading nanobevel. This ensures the best burr removal without risk of wire/foil edge. And still gives great bite.
Failure to do this results in much quicker rate of edge failure and more slippery edges that lose their teeth quick. Even on much finer stones, finishing on this manner gives a better lasting and feeling edge. Sharp and toothy at very high grits.


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## Garm

I'm a little confused. Are you guys(Uwe and Stringer) talking about the same thing when you mention 45 degrees, or is one the angle of approach to the stone and the other the sharpening/deburring angle?


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## stringer

It was late, I probably misunderstood.


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## suntravel

maybe a drawing would make better clear what I meant.






with a jig for deburring strokes, i do not chage the grinding angle, because every movent hits the edge, for deburring freehand i would lift the blade to an higher angle to make sure the few movements are hitting the egde.

Main benefit with jig is pressure control (less pressure = less burr) and precision, so you need less strokes to sharpen, less steel lost. So for me it is actually faster than freehand.

The way from stringer with a bit thinning while sharpening works also, but the blade will be worn out faster.

One of my pro chefs friends, brought me every 3 months his blades for thinning, after he started using a jig with pressure control i see him only once a year to thin out his knifes 

If you are having Gizmo in the house dont feed after midnight 

Regards

Uwe


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## Garm

I thought that's what you meant.
I'm going to experiment a bit with my angle of approach and see if it makes a discernable(to me) difference with regards to bite.
I never go as parallel as <20 degrees, but I think around 30-35 feels the most natural for me when sharpening the right side of the blade(holding in my right hand, edge facing me). I could see some body mechanics issues making your approach a bit of a challenge when freehand sharpening, making wobbling more likely, but I'm gonna give it a go.
It's very interesting to hear about your technique regardless


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## kayman67

stringer said:


> Uwe,
> On this one we agree on everything. Well almost everything. Except I would never have time for a gizmo. And my freehand may not be able to beat it, well that's not true. My freehand is better because I thin and convex as I go. But, the important part, that we can agree on is:
> Edge leading high angle low pressure passes is the best practice to remove final residual burr.
> I have believed this to be fact for quite some time and my own empirical research corroborates the theory. Your photos are fantastic. I agree with you that it doesn't matter as much for finer stones, or Jnats, because there is less risk of a wire edge because there isn't as much burr forming potential. But for finishing on medium grit synthetics, it's best to finish with the 45 degree edge leading nanobevel. This ensures the best burr removal without risk of wire/foil edge. And still gives great bite.
> Failure to do this results in much quicker rate of edge failure and more slippery edges that lose their teeth quick. Even on much finer stones, finishing on this manner gives a better lasting and feeling edge. Sharp and toothy at very high grits.



I think more and more that we see sharpening and even cutting quite similar. And we got there maybe the same way, doing own test and trial with stuff.


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## kayman67

suntravel said:


> The way from stringer with a bit thinning while sharpening works also, but the blade will be worn out faster.
> 
> One of my pro chefs friends, brought me every 3 months his blades for thinning, after he started using a jig with pressure control i see him only once a year to thin out his knifes



I believe he does it more like me or I do it more like him from a certain point. Technically it's thinning, but not as imagined. It's more of a realignment of the entire geometry as you would sharpen and it's really subtle, but on the long run makes a difference. Some proper thinning is required eventually, but not for a really long time. Having a good sense of building the edge matters greatly. The knives I work with lose height at an imperceptible rate over very long periods of time. And this gets me to the second part. I believe most people are unnecessary aggressive while sharpening thus the need for more observable thinning so often. 

On the subject, my experience is that it's actually hard for most people to use this technique. You will find J-strops as most recommended alternative and honestly, not even an alternative, but first and only recommended approach. And this is why a fix system might help. I'm not sure how expensive it would be and just how many would want to use one anyway.


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## Cbt

Thank you very much for the info. Very useful


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## ian

You know, sometimes when sharpening I find the blade is moving almost parallel to the edge. Like, I’ll have a 35 degree angle to the stone, but I won’t be pushing parallel to the stone, but rather parallel to the edge. 

Are there actual downsides to this? Makes it easier to hold a consistent angle, since the stone is contacting a huge portion of the bevel.


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## suntravel

ian said:


> You know, sometimes when sharpening I find the blade is moving almost parallel to the edge. Like, I’ll have a 35 degree angle to the stone, but I won’t be pushing parallel to the stone, but rather parallel to the edge.
> 
> Are there actual downsides to this? Makes it easier to hold a consistent angle, since the stone is contacting a huge portion of the bevel.



Yes the downside is to get an wire egde and loosing al the bite the scratches from the stone could make, also you make scratches along the edge, weaking the edge and make it more prone to chipping...

Regards

Uwe


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## ian

suntravel said:


> Yes the downside is to get an wire egde and loosing al the bite the scratches from the stone could make, also you make scratches along the edge, weaking the edge and make it more prone to chipping...
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



That all makes sense. I hadn’t noticed a decrease in performance the times I’d sharpened like that, though, so I didn’t know what to think.


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## Chef Doom

If it isn't free hand I have nothing to see here.


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## HRC_64

I have one series of questions...

if you draw the edge "parallel" (perfectly, let us assume) to the edge, how do you get a wire edge?

I would normally have to think for a wire edge you need plastic deformation (1) and
of the steel ORTHOGANAL to the edge (2), 

to some degree (ie, literal degrees)

otherwise the motion would either plasticallpy deform along the edge itself (?),
or more likely simply shear off the edge or the wire edge (?).

although I suppose shearing off the edge could be its own problem (?) 

One would thing this is something that would show up on these kind
of high resolution images?

OK that is all for my thought experiement for today


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## ian

HRC_64 said:


> I have one series of questions...
> 
> if you draw the edge "parallel" (perfectly, let us assume) to the edge, how do you get a wire edge?
> 
> I would normally have to think for a wire edge you need plastic deformation (1) and
> of the steel ORTHOGANAL to the edge (2),
> 
> to some degree (ie, literal degrees)
> 
> otherwise the motion would either plasticallpy deform along the edge itself (?),
> or more likely simply shear off the edge or the wire edge (?).
> 
> although I suppose shearing off the edge could be its own problem (?)
> 
> One would thing this is something that would show up on these kind
> of high resolution images?
> 
> OK that is all for my thought experiement for today



Yeah, a lot of things about this confuse me. E.g., if you look at the images here:

https://scienceofsharp.com/2014/04/16/the-honing-progression/

then it's not like the micro-serrations on the edge correspond to the grooves from the grit particles, so it's not completely obvious to me that sharpening more perpendicular to the edge will give you a toothier edge.

Anyway, most of the things Uwe said sound very reasonable (I also don't really know about the wire edge) but I never know what to think, really...


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## Foltest

In my opinion what matters is the use of edge leading and edge trailing strokes. Edge trailing strokes tend to do more plastic deformation. You use edge leading strokes because you are more likely to shear off the wire edge.

As for the stroke angle, it doesn't matter. Edge of the blade is formed by two planes meeting together. When the metal on the edge gets too thin, grains of the steel fall out, as there is not enough material to hold them. And they fall out approximatelly in the directon of normals of those planes forming the edge. Therefore, when you combine those 2 normals, they form a plane. And unsuprisingly, intersection of this new plane with the edge is direction in which the teeth are formed. As @ian noted above, just look at the images and you will see it.

If you didnt understand what I just wrote, look at the image. Blade - black, normals and plane they form - red, teeth orientation - green.





Photos from scienceofsharp, with different stroke angles and same teeth orientation:


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## kayman67

Well, yes and no, to some degree. 
I'm going razors here since with them I did microscope extended testing over motion and this relates to something said above. 

So, with razors, if I moved more towards the side of the stone (not quite xs, more like a smiling deburr motion), I could get a more even finish with less evident scratches or a mirror finish accordingly to the stone used. If I kept it at roughly 45, I could get a consistent scratch pattern or some scratches on stones capable of mirror finish, but not just as easy as others. And part of the reason for this above is how the edge will form microteeth in general and how they will perform. But it can develop into a bigger topic once we acknowledge that some abrasives will interact differently with some alloys, regardless of given grit.
With razors there is a debate regarding this, with some common ground over the fact that stones and alloys play a role together, again more or less.


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## Sharpchef

The gizmo, jiigs or what ever you call it, that we use is basically benchstone sharpening, nothing else... Just imagine a golf or tennis teacher leading your movement while hitting the target/ball. 

It`s not just like giving an exact angle, it can reduce the pressure brought to piece of steel that is at least 10 times slimer than aluminium foil ! Remember that... Don `t joke about it, it makes sence, and will improve everybody`s sharpening.... 

In my test runs, and i was an absolute hater of Jiigs like EP Wicked edge etc.... laughed loud about it  .. So no matter what you gonna say about such things "you never will touch" etc.... 
It works and it is faster then freehand, you get much sharper results (no problem to do a HHT-5 freehand, and i think some of you might get this too!) but the edge will fold roll and be unable to cut after a few cuts.... You know this problem... A Jiig like this solves this problem, and this is the cool thing about it... Take a good steel knife, sharper then a razor blade, and even sharper then most straight razors! (not a joke!) , and cut longer with it then with your best grind ever on medium stones.....

Back to topic, edge leading rulez! ask the Straight razor guys they know how to sharpen! Edge trailing is a waste of time...

Greets Sebastian. 

Greets Sebastian.


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## HRC_64

IMHO pressure is a huge "unkown" variable in sharpening methods be they hand or jig or whatever else. 

I can see the idea that a "stabilizing element" could allow for lighte and lighter pressure without compromising "stability". So in theory this could let us deburr better, since using hand pressure you need some minimum amount of tension to keep the edge angle stable.

FWIW this semms to be completely different than the "angle is precisely x.yzx degrees" type discussions had previously....in the sense that its not a precise angle that is critical, but the general concept of minimal pressure on burr formation/removal...

Notwithstanding all of that, there is MUCH about "edge shaping" that I think is useful to LEARN/DO by free-hand in part because the method forces you to be closer to the work -- ie, hands the blade and contsantly feeling/and looking at your work.,,, so when it comes to re-profiling, convexing and generally testing the "cutting" response of your grind modifications etc...freehand is indisuputably at an advantage...at least in my perspective.

But this is an interesting discussion/conversation to think about differnt ways of doing things.


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## daveb

Where's the "Don't Like" button for SOS?

He uses 43 pages to tell you what time it is......


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## ian

daveb said:


> Where's the "Don't Like" button for SOS?
> 
> He uses 43 pages to tell you what time it is......




But the pictures!


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## Sharpchef

Hey guys don`t judge things you never have try`d.....  . 

Greets Sebastian.


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## Barmoley

I think the issue is that the gizmo I assume is expensive and takes setup and planning. Moreover it sort of discourages building of the skill by suggesting that if you use it anyone can sharpen better than even people with years of sharpening experience. So if one uses the gizmo exclusively and then needs to sharpen a knife freehand, the results will be poor.
The other issues are more psychological, the gizmo is a "scientific" approach to sharpening, but many view sharpening as a skill and activity they spent years to learn. There is a romantic aspect to it that brings you closer to your knives because it makes knives almost alive since one has to take care of them. As such it upsets people that spent years building these skills and feel that they are in a special group. 
The gizmo might be great and work amazingly well in many cases, it sounds like it does, but most here won't use it or give it a chance. For professional sharpeners though it probably makes a lot of sense, assuming it works as described and it seems to make sense that it works well.


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## suntravel

With two left hands you will get poor results with an jig also, but it can speed up the learning curve for beginners.

Not everyone new to good knives wants to learn several years maybe full of frustration.

But being able to sharpen well freehand is the best starting point for a jig.

Regards

Uwe


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## Sharpchef

Barmoley said:


> I think the issue is that the gizmo I assume is expensive and takes setup and planning. Moreover it sort of discourages building of the skill by suggesting that if you use it anyone can sharpen better than even people with years of sharpening experience. So if one uses the gizmo exclusively and then needs to sharpen a knife freehand, the results will be poor.
> The other issues are more psychological, the gizmo is a "scientific" approach to sharpening, but many view sharpening as a skill and activity they spent years to learn. There is a romantic aspect to it that brings you closer to your knives because it makes knives almost alive since one has to take care of them. As such it upsets people that spent years building these skills and feel that they are in a special group.
> The gizmo might be great and work amazingly well in many cases, it sounds like it does, but most here won't use it or give it a chance. For professional sharpeners though it probably makes a lot of sense, assuming it works as described and it seems to make sense that it works well.



I agree that you need sharpening experience for using a sharpening system (again nothing like EP! or WE!) like the shown above. But expensive ? It is much more expensive to spend too much money in useless high grit stones and even more on super duper fine naturals.... If you allready have spend this money a sharpening system like this is the best way to spend your money and are finally at the stage to use this high grit stones....  .

The benefits are for free in this way. 

Greets Sebastian.


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## Barmoley

Sharpchef said:


> I agree that you need sharpening experience for using a sharpening system (again nothing like EP! or WE!) like the shown above. But expensive ? It is much more expensive to spend too much money in useless high grit stones and even more on super duper fine naturals.... If you allready have spend this money a sharpening system like this is the best way to spend your money and are finally at the stage to use this high grit stones....  .
> 
> The benefits are for free in this way.
> 
> Greets Sebastian.


You are forgetting that for many sharpening is a hobby in itself. For them all the stones they bought are not a waste.

I am not saying that this gizmo doesn't work or is not a better way to get a sharper and longer lasting edge. I've never used it, so can't comment. Just trying to explain the push back and sentiment you are getting. If the ultimate goal is to get the best edge consistently with least time, this might be the answer. This is not a universal goal though.


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## KingShapton

Is this threat about "stropping on medium grit stones" or ist this threat about "guided sharpening systems, jigs and gizmos" ?


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## suntravel

Well sharpening is a hobby for me also, i did not lost fun with a jig, but are better able to compare stones because with a jig most human errors are reduced, and thats also the best way to compare steels / HT because the grind is always the same quality. But maybe thats my cup of tea, because as an old racer i dont belive in magic or tradition, for me counts measureable performance...

... and i am learning every day, testing stuff, or make things and look on the results pro chefs testing the stuff 

Regards

Uwe


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## Matus

Uwe, so what is your favorite medium grit stone to strop on?


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## suntravel

Depends on the steel, at the moment I am testing different grinds on Aogami, till now Green Brick and deburr with Franke cuts longest in tomatoskin, but currently running the same knife with DMD 6k deburred on Shapton 30k with 2 strokes per side could come close or better 

Regards

Uwe


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## Barmoley

suntravel said:


> Depends on the steel, at the moment I am testing different grinds on Aogami, till now Green Brick and deburr with Franke cuts longest in tomatoskin, but currently running the same knife with DMD 6k deburred on Shapton 30k with 2 strokes per side could come close or better
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe


But how do you make sure your tomato skins are uniform... I am kidding ofcourse, just trying to illustrate that even your "scientific" method is not really.

A real question though, how much a contraption like that costs and short of making one, where do you guys get yours.


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## stringer

I'm not in the "never use a jig" camp. It sounds fascinating to me. I would use a jig at home just for the hell of it. But I can't imagine using something like that at work where the majority of my sharpening takes place. Today I sharpened all 12 or so knives I keep in my work kit. I did what I consider a full touch up. Shapton Pro 1k to Super Stone 2k. Took about half an hour, and they were in worse shape than usual because September is my busiest month of the year. It would probably take me many many hours of practice to get as fast with the gizmo as I go freehand when doing a bunch of different knives.

I also don't know what I would do with a kitchen knife sharpened to 30k grit. I own 4k, 8k, 12k stones. Even the 4k seems excessive to me. Coming off my Super Stone 2k my edges are plenty sharp enough to tree top arm hairs and cleanly slice wet paper towels. With a 4k I can start passing HHT and by 8k I could probably shave my face. Although 270 mm is a bit long for a razor. 
There might be some kind of minimal advantage to edge retention. But I don't really have issues with edge retention now. 
It's usually the least of my concerns when purchasing new knives if I consider it at all. 
I sharpen my knives because I enjoy it.

There might be some truth to the fact that by using less pressure and directing that pressure right at the edge, you make the knife last longer. But even my most heavily sharpened knives lose less than a mm per year of height. I get tired of knives and want to try something new long before I've used them all up.


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## Kippington

suntravel said:


> So for me it is actually faster than freehand.





Sharpchef said:


> It works and it is faster then freehand


How long does it take you guys to sharpen freehand? Touching up an edge takes like 30 seconds, something I doubt you could do faster with a jig.
I guess that's why I love freehand sharpening so much, it keeps a knife sharper for longer if you just keep re-finishing it.


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## Eloh

This is the argument: The edge quality per time is better compared to freehand, and the maximum quality of the edge is significantly better than what's possible freehand. Wich results in better edge stability and more edge retention. 
Also this system is mostly used for setting or touching up a microbevel, just to make that clear, too. 

Personally I agree with that because I've tried it. I can also completely understand that it's not for everyone for several reasons.


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## Michi

Barmoley said:


> The other issues are more psychological, the gizmo is a "scientific" approach to sharpening, but many view sharpening as a skill and activity they spent years to learn. There is a romantic aspect to it that brings you closer to your knives because it makes knives almost alive since one has to take care of them. As such it upsets people that spent years building these skills and feel that they are in a special group.


Good analysis. I suspect there is a huge perception bias involved, as well: "I've just spent hours sharpening this knife very carefully, it must be good, right? And I'm so special because I can do something that most people can't do."

The reality is that robots, or jigs (or whatever) almost always do a much better job than a human being ever can. That's because they do the exact same thing each and every time, to a very small tolerance (much smaller than what a person can achieve). There are thousands of examples of this, from welding panels on cars, to milling steel parts, to weaving cloth—you name it.

Just because I did it myself doesn't mean that it's necessarily better. It may or may not be better, depending on what it is.

Having said all that, I enjoy hand sharpening. It's meditative, I like it, it gives my an opportunity to focus on something that I like doing, it shuts out the mind chatter, etc. I wouldn't use a gizmo myself. Too much trouble, and far less fun. But I'm not deluding myself that I could do better than the gizmo…


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## Benuser

A few observations I retain from this discussion. Stropping on medium coarse stones by edge trailing will modify the scratch pattern. Same for deburring along the edge. Edge trailing causes much fatter burrs than necessary. All things that will sound familiar to anyone who sharpens, free hand or not.
I grew up with raising a burr, chasing it by stropping and finally deburring along the edge, followed by a few trailing strokes. 
Have tried now skipping trailing strokes entirely, through the entire progression. Sharpening by scrubbing, perpendicular to the edge, followed immediately by deburring by light edge leading strokes after stropping the other side on rough split leather. As usual, no complete deburring on medium stones to be expected. 
The same on the following stones. Only deburring on the finest ones. 
Result: a very bity, fine edge, very regular. Can't say much about edge retention but the first impressions are encouraging. Main factors in short edge retention are as far as I've seen above all poor deburring and an irregular scratch pattern. I would expect the bite to get lost very quickly but that didn't happen so far. It seems that the old discussion about 'open' and 'closed' edges hasn't to be reopened. This type of bity (?) edge still is 'closed', in Roman's terminology. 
Haven't seen or expected a wire edge, as those generally only appear when one doesn't stay long enough on the first stone and allows debris to get accumulated on top of the edge. I guess this is more likely to happen with jig use.


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## Sharpchef

Kippington said:


> How long does it take you guys to sharpen freehand? Touching up an edge takes like 30 seconds, something I doubt you could do faster with a jig.
> I guess that's why I love freehand sharpening so much, it keeps a knife sharper for longer if you just keep re-finishing it.



It depends on the condition of the edge, the steel and geometry (thin behind the edge or not) i guess  . 

You use 52100 for some of your knifes so let `s take this steel for comparison. 

My ZKramer Carbon sharpened and deburred with a system on Shapton 8k Pro may last for about 2 day `s prep. Without using a sharpening steel, then (with no damaged edge) it may take about 10 - 20 strokes on the 8k to touchup the edge, and i tryed exactly this a few moments ago, and i needet 2 minutes and 22 seconds (including build up the sharpening system on my table, fixing the knife, search for the Shapton etc.... 
This would be much less if i start to resharpen more knifes.... 

This is not the way i go with steels like 52100, i do a touchup 2k/5k/8k (5 to 8 minutes max.) after about 5-8 weeks in pro business and in the meantime i use a DICK Microfeinzug steel for about 5 - 20 sec. a day. 

With higher alloyed steels like 1.2562 (my sweetspot) i can cut 1-2 weeks without steeling and need a touchup time of about 5-8 min. (8k/12k/30k/Nakayama)....

I am a fast freehand sharpener but with a little practice you get faster with a system like this. 
Don`t get me wrong, i like freehand sharpening very much, got hundrets of naturals over the time, tested very much synthetic stones (Naniwa Chosera, Shapton Pro/Glass, Sigma Select 2, etc... I was just bored to sharpen a knife to real sharpness (not the max. 3k necessary one!) and loose this after a few cuts, if i went past 6k ... 
I also like my knifes, and with proper sharpening they need to be thinned only once a year in pro business, loose maybe 1/15 th mm a year ? 

Another point is, why i should spend hundrets or even more for high quality knifes especially japanese ones, when they are just used with a 3k finish ? So the guy on the line next to you with a Wüsthoff, Sab or something else with 1k finish and using a steel got a sharper knife for weeks and months and i do sharpen it every day, just to see my beloved knife getting dull so fast? This is some kind of frustrating  . 
But i have to admit that real performance boost, besides cutting with 10k finsih double the time that you are used to with maybe 2 or 3k finsih, comes with higher alloyed steels. 

So back to topic, less pressure less burr. To each it`s own. 

Greets Sebastian.


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## kayman67

What matters to me at this point is that more people acknowledge what can be done. I really don't care how anyone would do it. I got a lot of grief from people telling me what an idiot I am saying some things mentioned here.


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## Kippington

Sharpchef said:


> Another point is, why i should spend hundrets or even more for high quality knifes especially japanese ones, when they are just used with a 3k finish ?


Because I think the value of a knife is worth more than just the steel it was made from or the edge the steel holds.



Sharpchef said:


> ...in the meantime i use a DICK Microfeinzug steel for about 5 - 20 sec. a day.


Do you do this by hand? If hand steeling makes a difference to the edge by improving it's sharpness, wouldn't that mean it's affecting the accuracy of the bevel you did with a sharpening jig?


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## Sharpchef

Kippington said:


> Because I think the value of a knife is worth more than just the steel it was made from or the edge the steel holds.
> 
> 
> Do you do this by hand? If hand steeling makes a difference to the edge by improving it's sharpness, wouldn't that mean it's affecting the accuracy of the bevel you did with a sharpening jig?



A steel like the DICK Micro does not remove steel in a measurable way. Btw. a coarser steel like the DICK Saphirzug removes a little like 0,06 mg, to compare a ceramic rod removes about 0,92 mg... Measured by a geeky member of another forum after 200 passes on each steel/ceramic rod. 

And yes i use it by hand. 

In my opinion there is art in knifemaking, and there is performance in knifemaking ! Fit and finish does not cut, so i believe that at least for me as beeing a pro, the "art" of craftmanship in a knife is not necessary. 
Geometry, feel, edge retention and toughness are most obvious the point`s i`am talk about when it comes to performance. 

I tested couterproductive knife concepts, with decent steel and very fine finish (not the edge  ) but bad HT so no win for me, good looking knife with nearly no performance in my point of view... The level of craftmansship may be high but not the performance. This should be the key value of a knife.... This stuff should be mainly tools, and no collector items... 

If you choose to make collector items why you should harden them... Is so less trouble to grind and finish an unhardened blade... For the most collectors there is no need for cutting... No need for special steel etc... Look at B/S/T how many of them where sold as NIB, never sharpend, used for one testcut ...

I think especially makers like you with your hook grind are trying to do performance knifes ? So what is the value of a knife that is more important then the steel and the edge retention ? The points i stated above or anything else ?

Greets Sebastian.


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## Michi

I'm following this discussion with great interest. If all parties can remain civil, I suspect there will be a great deal to learn here.


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## suntravel

I know Sebastian for several years, and we were arguing a lot about knife stuff. If arguing is based only on theory it will never end. So best way to come to an consens is to test what the other one thinks works best 
This way also is a good way to learn and to improve skills and the knifeperformance.

Also there is no global truth, what works best for one pro chef, must not be the best for an other 

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Kippington

I'm only saying this to answer your question: '_Why i should spend hundreds or even more for high quality knives especially Japanese ones, when they are just used with a 3k finish_?'
Some things that come to mind...

Edge geometry
Accuracy of grind (e.g. wide bevel)
Profile shape, handle shape
Length of blade
Handle materials
Overall comfort of product for the user (e.g. rounding of choil and spine)
Steel pattern or hamon (if applicable)
Difficulty of construction
Visual appeal
Polishing and finish of blade/handle
Prestige: backstory and craftsmanship...
And of course steel and edge retention.
You seem like you'd be disappointed by a 3k finish on a $2,000 knife, and that's fine. Other people would not feel the same way.


Sharpchef said:


> So what is the value of a knife that is more important then the steel and the edge retention?


That's a different question to the one you asked first, and can only be answered by an individual influenced by their own opinions.
Don't get me wrong, steel and edge retention is really important. But it's all relative: If you gave me a knife with the best heat treat in the universe and it turned out to be a 25mm edge kiridashi, I would say there might be more important things for a kitchen knife than only its steel and edge retention.

I have no problem with jigs, but to make definitive statements such as_ "Jigs are faster than freehand"_ and _"less steel is lost when using a jig over freehand sharpening"_ is what I would call misleading. It depends on too many factors, one of which being the skill of the free-hand sharpener - And while it's fine to compare jigs to your own skills, we have no idea what they might be.


----------



## Sharpchef

Kippington said:


> I have no problem with jigs, but to make definitive statements such as_ "Jigs are faster than freehand"_ and _"less steel is lost when using a jig over freehand sharpening"_ is what I would call misleading. It depends on too many factors, one of which being the skill of the free-hand sharpener - And while it's fine to compare jigs to your own skills, we have no idea what they might be.



I did freehand sharpening for at least 20 years (beeing quite good i think), tested many sharpened blades by other experienced freehand sharpeners (well known knifemakers like Kiyoshi Kato, Shigeki Tanaka, Shigefusa, Roman Landes, Xerxes, Kamon, Yoshikane etc....) And gave some knifes to Yu Kourosaki and Yoshimi Kato to sharpen them in front of me.... And i`am convinced that i could do it better for myself (handsharpening)! Same for straight razors.... 

I don `t want to highlight me as the supersharpener , because i learned that nearly anyone with a good Gizmo/Jiiig what ever can do it better, then even the most experienced freehander out there... This was my lesson after 20Years...... And i use it (the jiig) for my advantage, but still there are knifes that don `t need this kind of treatment... (Solingen standart knifes... are good to go freehand with 1k and Steel) , cheap chinese cleavers etc... 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## mack

First of all: I'm no professional chef, I'm not even a good hobby chef I guess but I like cooking. And I like cooking because I like kitchen knives. I know how to sharpen freehand on stones, that's what I learned for years. But to put it in correct relation: I have to sharpen my knives from time to time, not too often. And to my mind it makes sense to touch up regularly, I use a high quality JNAT for that issue (a few strokes are enough as mentioned before). I have no problem, to hold a stable angle. 
So why do I use a guided sharpening system? There is this discussion with all the pressure things, to my mind that makes absolutely sense. The other thing is, that as a guy who loves kitchen knives and cooking is nothing more than a hobby the intervals between to sharpening sessions are huge. I own about 30 Gyutos, I don't have enough to cut, it's that simple. So I can't remember the freehand angle I chose the last time sharpening. And if I was remembering, I wouldn't find the exactely angle anymore, although I use a bevel box. The result is that I have a lot of different angles on my edge, no one wants that. So by using only 1 fixed angle with my guided sharpening system for ALL of my knives I can be sure that there are no variances from the last sharpening sessions. I know that the angle is different depending on the thickness where I fix the knife but again - as a hobby chef - it makes no difference for my wheather one knives has 34 or 36 degrees. And I don't use single bevel knives, I am left handed, my wife is right handed, so all knives have to be perfectly symmetrical. So my intention using a guided sharpening system is primarily the only possibility for me to get replicable results over the time. 
I know that some guys use sharpening books where they note down the angles of every knife, but sorry, that is not the way I want to handle this.

A few thoughts on the topic in general, a lot of things already mentioned:
- Don't start using a guided sharpening system without any knowledge about hand sharpening
- If you like the act of sharpening and you see sharpening as a hobby itself - that is of course totally fine, I can imagine that a sharpening system is killing the joy you have while sharpening. 
- But on the other hand: If you are only interessted in getting the best results, because it is only a means to an end (and I fit perfectly in this category) there is no better way to sharpen knives than doing it with a guided system. 

It is interessting that obviously there are huge regional differences how people see the worthiness of guided sharpening systems. They are not often used in Japan (well that's no surprise) and the US, but they are totally accepted in Russia and Europe. 

I like this thread.

Mack.


----------



## KingShapton

I don't think that you can speak for whole Europe. Reality is, this guided sharpening system is totally accepted by a small group of people in Germany and Austria.


----------



## mack

KingShapton said:


> I don't think that you can speak for whole Europe. Reality is, this guided sharpening system is totally accepted by a small group of people in Germany and Austria.



You may be right with that.
It's not whole Europe. But there are a lot af countries in East-Europe where those systems are used. So let's say half of Europe or something like that, but not whole Europe.

Mack.


----------



## Kippington

mack said:


> It is interesting that obviously there are huge regional differences how people see the worthiness of guided sharpening systems. They are not often used in Japan...


In my sick mind, I consider this to be using a jig.

I mean, while grinding he's not touching the blade at all!


----------



## Sharpchef

KingShapton said:


> I don't think that you can speak for whole Europe. Reality is, this guided sharpening system is totally accepted by a small group of people in Germany and Austria.



And off course in russia....  . They cut ropes so this is not too much interesting for kitchen knife users. 

Still pissed of because of brazilian floor plates used as sharpening stones, with the only advantage of good polishing ? Come on dude  ... 

Everybody may be happy sharpening freehand, but it is more then proved that guided sharpening systems have lots of advantages over freehand sharpening. 
As a pro chef, that cook at home daily too i can say, i was able to have sharp knifes in job as at home at any time the last 20 years (freehand)... So i don`t want to convince anybody, just clarify that there is a reason why i use such systems, and why they make sense for me (more sparetime and real sharp usable knifes... that don `t get worn out fast, that`s it) . 

@mack : I use the same angle all the time (35 degrees) except the "traditional" single Bevel knifes (45 degree microbevel on Deba, 25 - 30 on Yanagiba/Tako knifes (with no board contact).) 

Greets Sebastian...


----------



## KingShapton

mack said:


> You may be right with that.
> It's not whole Europe. But there are a lot af countries in East-Europe where those systems are used. So let's say half of Europe or something like that, but not whole Europe.



Let's say a small group of people in some parts of Europe. Don't make this thing bigger as it is.


----------



## kayman67

I've done some cross Europe sharpening and talked to people. Stones alone are quite rare stuff, of any kind.


----------



## suntravel

As far as i know systems like this are not massproduced, but things like EP were first used around 1865 and now even made in China, should be a few million users worldwide 

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Sharpchef

KingShapton said:


> Let's say a small group of people in some parts of Europe. Don't make this thing bigger as it is.



Even handsharpening on stones is not a big thing  ... Lets say in europe there are 150-200 millions of people using kitchen knifes ?, how many of them own and use sharpening stones  .. So i think knife sharpening is no real big thing in modern times  . If i would ask all of my friends who is using sharpening stones for kitchen knifes what percentage do this ? 1-3% maybe, you have to be lucky to find anyone, this is reality....

I also guess that even users in this forum are not 100% sharpeners.... Look at the buy a knife questions.... How many of them are aware of using sharpening stones ? 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Matus

Uwe, you started a thread on a very interesting topic, but it is somehow turning into a pointless stone versus jig discussion. I consider that a pity. Threads with interesting content about knives or sharpening became rarer around here in the past few years, I think the larger KKF audience would appreciate if this thread would manage to keep on topic.


----------



## suntravel

Maybe, you can move the OT to here ?

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/guided-sharpening.43459/

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Benuser

Matus said:


> Uwe, you started a thread on a very interesting topic, but it is somehow turning into a pointless stone versus jig discussion. I consider that a pity. Threads with interesting content about knives or sharpening became rarer around here in the past few years, I think the larger KKF audience would appreciate if this thread would manage to keep on topic.


Have the same feeling. It started about edge trailing and scratch patterns, and is likely to end in a pro and anti jig quarrel.


----------



## Benuser

The original thread was interesting for all sharpeners, not just jig users.


----------



## Sharpchef

funny fact, no one talked about jiigs... daveb mentioned it  ... in a slightly negative manner.... So this was just an explanation guys  . 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## mack

suntravel said:


> Maybe, you can move the OT to here ?
> 
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/guided-sharpening.43459/
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



I would appreciate this. And sorry for OT.


Mack.


----------



## Garm

When cleaning up the edge with either stropping or edge leading strokes on a 1000 grit stone, let's something like a Naniwa Pro 800 or 1k,
how light do people here feel they can go with regards to pressure and still notice an impact on the edge/burr/wire edge?


----------



## Matus

Sharpchef said:


> funny fact, no one talked about jiigs... daveb mentioned it  ... in a slightly negative manner.... So this was just an explanation guys  .



Well, Dave made a joke and then the discussion remained on topic until you in post #23 made a lengthy argumentative post about the jig that started the discussion.

And guys sorry - I am not going to sort the whole thread and move off-topic posts elsewhere (even though I well understand the wish to do so) as they would largely loose the content and that would actually do not good to the other thread. Anyone interested in discussion this particular jig would do best to do it in a proper thread.

And Dave, we need to talk


----------



## KingShapton

I just can talk for myself, for me, cleaning up the edge/get rid of the burr only with edge leading strokes, as light as possible, like a feather.
The results are very good.


----------



## Kippington

Alright, back on topic.
I use a method of burr removal that I've never seen mentioned on this forum. It's the one that's similar to bread knifing, running the edge down a fine stone diagonally with the least amount of pressure possible. The idea being to fold it over and cut it off with edge leading strokes. Has anyone here tried this method before?


----------



## Matus

You mean like very gently 'cutting into the stone'?


----------



## Kippington

It would be, but done diagonally as to not cut into anything. Kinda like scraping the burr off to the side of the edge, then bending it over and abrading it off.

Whats the angle of the bevel here? It looks pretty steep compared to what I see most people using.


----------



## Sharpchef

Kippington said:


> Alright, back on topic.
> I use a method of burr removal that I've never seen mentioned on this forum. It's the one that's similar to bread knifing, running the edge down a fine stone diagonally with the least amount of pressure possible. The idea being to fold it over and cut it off with edge leading strokes. Has anyone here tried this method before?



Please make a vid, if this works as great as your hook grind this could be changing the game.

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Benuser

Kippington said:


> Alright, back on topic.
> I use a method of burr removal that I've never seen mentioned on this forum. It's the one that's similar to bread knifing, running the edge down a fine stone diagonally with the least amount of pressure possible. The idea being to fold it over and cut it off with edge leading strokes. Has anyone here tried this method before?





Benuser said:


> A few observations I retain from this discussion. Stropping on medium coarse stones by edge trailing will modify the scratch pattern. Same for deburring along the edge. Edge trailing causes much fatter burrs than necessary. All things that will sound familiar to anyone who sharpens, free hand or not.
> I grew up with raising a burr, chasing it by stropping and finally deburring along the edge, followed by a few trailing strokes.
> Have tried now skipping trailing strokes entirely, through the entire progression. Sharpening by scrubbing, perpendicular to the edge, followed immediately by deburring by light edge leading strokes after stropping the other side on rough split leather. As usual, no complete deburring on medium stones to be expected.
> The same on the following stones. Only deburring on the finest ones.
> Result: a very bity, fine edge, very regular. Can't say much about edge retention but the first impressions are encouraging. Main factors in short edge retention are as far as I've seen above all poor deburring and an irregular scratch pattern. I would expect the bite to get lost very quickly but that didn't happen so far. It seems that the old discussion about 'open' and 'closed' edges hasn't to be reopened. This type of bity (?) edge still is 'closed', in Roman's terminology.
> Haven't seen or expected a wire edge, as those generally only appear when one doesn't stay long enough on the first stone and allows debris to get accumulated on top of the edge. I guess this is more likely to happen with jig use.


----------



## KingShapton

Kippington said:


> It's the one that's similar to bread knifing, running the edge down a fine stone diagonally with the least amount of pressure possible.



I've tried a very similar technique in the past, but i don't like the results. But that was years ago, perhabs i should try it again..


----------



## Garm

I just imagine that there must be some cut-off point with something as coarse as a 1k stone, due to the size of the abrasives, when lightening the pressure won't make any difference. With a very fine grit stone I have an easier time understanding the feather light aspect.
I may be completely in the wrong here though, and I'm certainly not an especially good sharpener.

Another question, when doing light edge leading strokes to deburr and hone, do people do a contiuous, long sweep, and just try to make contact with each section for a short distance on the stone?


----------



## ian

Kippington said:


> It would be, but done diagonally as to not cut into anything. Kinda like scraping the burr off to the side of the edge, then bending it over and abrading it off.
> 
> Whats the angle of the bevel here? It looks pretty steep compared to what I see most people using.



So your motion is essentially parallel to the edge? I usually deburr edge leading at a very shallow angle to the edge, almost parallel. Best results I’ve gotten have been like this, at least.


----------



## Kippington

ian said:


> So your motion is essentially parallel to the edge? I usually deburr edge leading at a very shallow angle to the edge, almost parallel. Best results I’ve gotten have been like this, at least.


The knife is pretty much at a right angle to the stone. Lowest amount of pressure possible.

Alright, made a video for clarity.

- Start: Knife is blunt, showing some tests to prove it
- 17 seconds: Sharpening starts, medium stone
- 24 seconds: Fine stone
- 35 seconds: Deburr, almost right angle knife-to-stone, diagonal run as to not cut into stone. Extremely low pressure. This pushes burr to the left side of knife
- 39 seconds: Pushing burr over again, even further. Low pressure again
- 42 seconds: Combination of cutting burr off completely + microbevel + polish edge.
- End: Repeat of edge tests

Hope it makes sense.


----------



## KingShapton

Garm said:


> I just imagine that there must be some cut-off point with something as coarse as a 1k stone, due to the size of the abrasives, when lightening the pressure won't make any difference. With a very fine grit stone I have an easier time understanding the feather light aspect.



In my imagination and in my experience, with less pressure a stone will act like a finer stone. Less aggressive. 

Cliff Stamp has shown, that a 400 grit stone can leave a edge like a 1000 grit stone. And I tried it, it works.



Garm said:


> Another question, when doing light edge leading strokes to deburr and hone, do people do a contiuous, long sweep, and just try to make contact with each section for a short distance on the stone



Correct.


----------



## Sharpchef

@Kippington : Impressive! where you get this super quality thick paper ? 

What you are using as sharpening medium in this vid? please explain! 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Kippington

Let's be real, if I didn't use any paper cutting tests you would argue it wasn't sharp at all after what I did to it.
It's won't pass any HHT, but it will do food prep no problem.


----------



## Sharpchef

Kippington said:


> Let's be real, if I didn't use any paper cutting tests you would argue it wasn't sharp at all after what I did to it.
> It's won't pass any HHT, but it will do food prep no problem.



May my english to bad for conversations like this ? .. I don`t get you. Again what sharpening media you are using ? I`am not joking, it would really like to know! 

greets Sebastian.


----------



## Kippington

Cheap Diamond Plate -> Shapton Glass 1600
@Marek07 gave me the plate. No idea how much it was or where to get it.


----------



## Sharpchef

You mean the deburr was made on a Shapton glass 16k right ? thanks for the info mate! 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## stringer

Kippington's video seems very similar to what I call a high angle or double angle pass. As light a touch as possible. Like 1/4 of the weight of the knife. 1.5-2 times the normal sharpening angle.


----------



## Kippington

Sharpchef said:


> You mean the deburr was made on a Shapton glass 16k right ? thanks for the info mate!


Oh sorry it was Shapton 4k. Diamond plate is around 500 grit


----------



## Sharpchef

Very interessting, i gonna try this right now. So lets say 20-25 degree angle sharpening and then deburring with a kind of microbevel with about 45 degree ? 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Kippington

Sharpchef said:


> Very interessting, i gonna try this right now. So lets say 20-25 degree angle sharpening and then deburring with a kind of microbevel with about 45 degree ?
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



Closer to 30-35 degree microbevel. It's raising the spine as little as I can, only so I know I'm hitting the edge. By hand it's the smallest amount I can manage by feel.


----------



## Sharpchef

Kippington said:


> Cheap Diamond Plate -> Shapton Glass 1600
> @Marek07 gave me the plate. No idea how much it was or where to get it.





Kippington said:


> Closer to 30-35 degree microbevel. It's raising the spine as little as I can, only so I know I'm hitting the edge. By hand it's the smallest amount I can manage by feel.



I watched that vid some times now... And i really believe the angle to be at about 30 degree + while sharpening on dia plate and Shapton... the deburr action is about 40 degree on one side and 25 on the other ? 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Garm

@king Shapton: Thanks, I clearly need to experiment more with this.

This thread has been a real eye opener for me. Super interesting! I've had trouble with wire edges on stainless steels, and the angle and pressure variations seem like key points in solving this. 

@Kippington: That was damn impressive, at least to me.


----------



## kayman67

Kippington said:


> The knife is pretty much at a right angle to the stone. Lowest amount of pressure possible.
> 
> Alright, made a video for clarity.
> 
> - Start: Knife is blunt, showing some tests to prove it
> - 17 seconds: Sharpening starts, medium stone
> - 24 seconds: Fine stone
> - 35 seconds: Deburr, almost right angle knife-to-stone, diagonal run as to not cut into stone. Extremely low pressure. This pushes burr to the left side of knife
> - 39 seconds: Pushing burr over again, even further. Low pressure again
> - 42 seconds: Combination of cutting burr off completely + microbevel + polish edge.
> - End: Repeat of edge tests
> 
> Hope it makes sense.





When I'm in a huge hurry, I do something similar, less the diagonal deburr (that's a bit different). But all in all everything is there as a principle. Working edge from scrap in no time and with quite a bit of life. A high angle might be needed only for the interior of the blade. At least that's how I build it then. And the interesting nature of this is that is will get result for mostly anything.


----------



## ian

Kippington said:


> Closer to 30-35 degree microbevel. It's raising the spine as little as I can, only so I know I'm hitting the edge. By hand it's the smallest amount I can manage by feel.



Respect. 

Why the single really high angle edge trailing stroke before starting the 30-35 edge leading microbevel?


----------



## Kippington

Sharpchef said:


> I watched that vid some times now... And i really believe the angle to be at about 30 degree + while sharpening on dia plate and Shapton... the deburr action is about 40 degree on one side and 25 on the other ?


I have no idea what angle it is, I'm doing it by hand. Knife is about 54mm tall at the heel, if that helps.

It's more about the technique than the variables. You can make it work at lower angles, I just uploaded a quick recording in 5 mins to show what I mean.
I don't see this method get mentioned often and it works well for me. I figured it was on-topic to this thread.


----------



## suntravel

Kippington said:


> Whats the angle of the bevel here? It looks pretty steep compared to what I see most people using.



it is 18°

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Kippington

Sharpchef said:


> I watched that vid some times now... And i really believe the angle to be at about 30 degree + while sharpening on dia plate and Shapton... the deburr action is about 40 degree on one side and 25 on the other ?





ian said:


> Why the single really high angle edge trailing stroke before starting the 30-35 edge leading microbevel?



Guys, it's more about the technique than the details. I recorded and uploaded this video in 5 minutes due to a request a few posts before, taking the little details away (other than the deburring) would be missing the point.
It can be done with different grits and different angles.


----------



## ian

Kippington said:


> Guys, it's more about the technique than the details. I recorded and uploaded this video in 5 minutes due to a request a few posts before, taking the little details away would be missing the point.



Sure, that makes sense. But to differentiate the technique from the details, it helps to ask these kind of questions. Your response tells me that the things we were noticing aren't essential, which is good information. Thanks!


----------



## Kippington

The point was mainly to show the deburr at 35 seconds and 40 seconds. Bend the burr over till it breaks off, then do whatever you need to do to get the knife sharp again (without bringing another burr in). Shouldn't take long.


----------



## ian

Oh, I see. The deburr at 35 seconds was actually what I was asking about. That makes a lot of sense now. Can't wait to try. Thanks for the vid.


----------



## RDalman

Screw it I'll chip in. In my experience, I don't fancy Sebastians edge he sharpens with the gizmo (he did it on a knife for me "to prove" once and it was folded in places, and didnt hold)
But I agree with the technique, here's what I do typically 
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bzsk749iNXD/?igshid=f2zt88a2h06d


----------



## Sharpchef

Here is my freehand attempt... sorry bad vid, but it basically works in any way  with less strokes... Shapton Pro 1k , Coticule, Knife is a cheapo Shirogami2 (two strokes per side total). So my point is, cutting paper is nice , but has nothing to do with the work in the kitchen . The only paper i cut there is backing paper...



I know we can`t see me actually cut the paper, sorry the cameragirl wasn`t at home  . But take this for serious please. What i want to tell is, it is very easy so resharpen a knife (that is thin behind the edge) to arm hair shaving, cutting ordinary paper etc... we don ´t even need two kind of stones....

@RDalman : As expected  . You really are the only one that disliked one of my edges... Maybe there was a failure anywhere  , well no one is perfect . 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Kippington

So you don't deburr at all?


----------



## Sharpchef

Kippington said:


> So you don't deburr at all?



I did it just like you with less strokes and lower sharpening angle ? (about 18-20 degree per side i guess, nothing really measurable by hand...). May i have missed something on your vid ? (so i have to say sorry if this is the case!) 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Kippington

Yes, you have completely missed the point of my vid. I give up.


----------



## Sharpchef

Kippington said:


> Yes, you have completely missed the point of my vid. I give up.



Yep, i understand  ... A comedian could not explain it better  . 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## suntravel

cutting printerpaper is very easy and has nothing to do with how good or long a blade will go trough tomatoes 

But showing imperssive stuff is easy, like the cheap Komagiri chopping wood and then be sharp enough for cutting tissue....

... most more expensive knives will fail on stuff like this without performing much better in the kitchen, but this says nothing about the quality on the board 

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Carl Kotte

I’ve been following this thread. But I have to say that it’s started to look like a travesty of a discussion.

@Kippington shows a really cool thing I’ve never thought of or seen before. 

Sharpchef misses the point and makes a video of the thing I’d suspect most of us do.

And suntravel fills in by pointing out the obvious truth that cutting printer paper does not tell a whole lot about performance on the board and edge retention.
But, that was never the issue.

What happened to the old art of communication. This is all very confusing.


----------



## Sharpchef

so please explain why i miss the point of kips vid ? I do exactly the same, but obviously without obscure angles ? And the easy option like i showed is faster ? with same cutting ability ? so what do i miss ? You may fooling me, but i don`t get it really  . 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## HRC_64

Kippington said:


> ...wouldn't that mean it's affecting the accuracy of the bevel you did with a sharpening jig?



Gonna argue devils advocate here just for a second...

I really think the burr removal under light pressure is the intersting idea here, 
the angle precision concept of jigs is a red-herring.

Its pretty common for old-school grinder to have "tool rests" 
for the same reason as the jig...if you held onto a the workpiece
in free-space (6 degree of freedom) you need to pressure the work more
than if you reduce the degree of freedom by resting on a tool-rest...

Thus you get less problems using lighter pressure and "let abrasive do work"

but i only really see this advantage at the burr removal stage,
not at the stage of doing other steps appreciably better.

This relates to OP because "stropping" is a burr removal process
..fundamentally etc


----------



## kayman67

Someone demonstrated a different deburr motion, as requested. Someone else, a stropping procedure. And there is a lot of debate over unrelated things. This will confuse the heck out of anyone that doesn't have the knowledge to identify elements like these.


----------



## Matus

Guys, this is still a very interesting thread. But maybe a little more effort could be at times invested in trying to explain ones point and understanding the one of the other side, rather then trying to prove the other side is wrong (or worse).


----------



## labor of love

This is a great discussion. But Im still not convinced theres a single way to sharpen knives that is superior to all others. I think as long youre using a consistent angle, sharpening on a stone long enough to raise a burr(the size of which is your preference), deburr by whatever technique you prefer the results will be great. 

My big take away is that I really need to start playing around with edge leading strokes, which I do not have the muscle memory for so its kinda awkward. But enough guys seem to like it so Im open to it.


----------



## KingShapton

There are many ways to sharpen a knife with very good results. Everyone has to find his own way.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Matus said:


> Guys, this is still a very interesting thread. But maybe a little more effort could be at times invested in trying to explain ones point and understanding the one of the other side, rather then trying to prove the other side is wrong (or worse).



Matus, you said what I wanted to say! Well put!
And I agree. It is interesting and I for one feel like I have a lot to learn from it.


----------



## stringer

I was going to make a video when I got home from work to demonstrate high angle passes but I found this one which explains it at least a coherent as I can, probably more so.


----------



## stringer

A couple of thoughts to add now that I have a chance. 
I don't really ever try to keep steady angles. I start out thinning until I get a burr. By thinning I mean that my angle is pretty much as flat as it can be for that knife. Then I gradually move my finger pressure down closer to the edge, alternating back and forth. Raising a burr, flipping (technically switching) the knife. Until I'm focused right on the edge. As I move closer to the edge I do steadily diminishing pressure as well. The result is a slightly convex zero grind. Then I add a micro bevel appropriate for the knife. That could be just on one side, both sides symmetrical, both sides assymetrical, flat or convex or blended into the original grind or whatever. And then after that I add my nano bevel. That's what I call the result of the high angle pass. It's usually about a 75-90 degree inclusive micro micro bevel. I don't get rid of it like he does in the video either. That's my working Apex. I will strop it a little. Just a few strokes on my hand or newspaper or a stretched kitchen rag. 
The Science of Sharp guy says that the way this works is a high angle pass, even with a feather touch puts an extreme amount of pressure on the edge because you are impacting such a small surface area. This results in a lot of plastic deformation. The guy in the video demonstrates the high angle pass part pretty well. That's the only reason I shared it.
You don't have to go so extreme to see the benefit. 
I started just going a few degrees above my main micro bevel, but since I've started playing with straight razors my feather touch game has seen big improvements. I've been testing this on everything I have. Shirogami, VG10, Aebl, 52100, Super Aogami, 1095, W2, O2. No exotic stuff. You end up with a nice sharp sturdy working edge. For medium coarseness. I don't think this strategy is necessary if you are Finishing on actual finishing stones. But it's a good way to deal with deburring when you aren't planning on sharpening to 8000+ grit or using JNats or whatever. But always edge leading for all of it.


----------



## Benuser

labor of love said:


> My big take away is that I really need to start playing around with edge leading strokes, which I do not have the muscle memory for so its kinda awkward. But enough guys seem to like it so Im open to it.


It's rather simple, I can now say, afterwards. Same as finding a stropping angle for leather — with this difference, that I would take the stropping angle slightly smaller, but that's another discussion. Just as an edge bites in leather it does in a stone, in a piece of wood or in cardboard. You may verify by creating a huge fat burr and find out what you feel on the moistened stone. If you don't believe it, check with a marker and a loupe.


----------



## kayman67

labor of love said:


> This is a great discussion. But Im still not convinced theres a single way to sharpen knives that is superior to all others. I think as long youre using a consistent angle, sharpening on a stone long enough to raise a burr(the size of which is your preference), deburr by whatever technique you prefer the results will be great.
> 
> My big take away is that I really need to start playing around with edge leading strokes, which I do not have the muscle memory for so its kinda awkward. But enough guys seem to like it so Im open to it.



Do a bit of reverse engineering, using a path you are already comfortable with. Soon enough everything will feel natural either way. And try using a soft stone. As soft as possible. This will give you best pressure development while sharpening on anything later on.


----------



## driver

Not bad idea..., but I'd prefer another device.


----------



## Nikabrik

It's really funny for me, because i grew up doing edge leading strokes, and moved away from them once I got into sharpening with sandpaper and then got my King 1k/6k.

I know some j-stones, especially the King 1k,have a reputation for rounding apexes when used edge-leading. I don't know if that's accurate, but I recall hearing it, so I've avoided that so far. I'm curious to try edge leading on the 6k side.


----------



## suntravel

Soft stones like King 6k or Gold are the best teachers for holding an angle, because you will cut in the stone edge leading by the slightest error, maybe thats the reason the self called master Carter uses them edge trailing 

Regards

Uwe


----------



## bennyprofane

Kippington said:


> Yes, you have completely missed the point of my vid. I give up.



I think, I also missed it. Could you maybe try to explain it a little more because I am sincerely interested.


----------



## labor of love

Kippington said:


> Alright, back on topic.
> I use a method of burr removal that I've never seen mentioned on this forum. It's the one that's similar to bread knifing, running the edge down a fine stone diagonally with the least amount of pressure possible. The idea being to fold it over and cut it off with edge leading strokes. Has anyone here tried this method before?


@bennyprofane


----------



## ian

Also, small public service: let me repost what @Kippington said, to make up for the fact that when I was asking him questions above, I somehow hadn’t noticed that he explained every step of the video right underneath the embedded media.

I don’t think there’s anything to add to what’s below. Thanks again. Tried it out on some customers’ knives today and seemed to work pretty well, although the steel I was sharpening was pretty crappy so the whole process wasn’t very satisfying. Looking forward to trying it out on worthy steel.




Kippington said:


> - Start: Knife is blunt, showing some tests to prove it
> - 17 seconds: Sharpening starts, medium stone
> - 24 seconds: Fine stone
> - 35 seconds: Deburr, almost right angle knife-to-stone, diagonal run as to not cut into stone. Extremely low pressure. This pushes burr to the left side of knife
> - 39 seconds: Pushing burr over again, even further. Low pressure again
> - 42 seconds: Combination of cutting burr off completely + microbevel + polish edge.
> - End: Repeat of edge tests
> 
> Hope it makes sense.





Kippington said:


> The point was mainly to show the deburr at 35 seconds and 40 seconds. Bend the burr over till it breaks off, then do whatever you need to do to get the knife sharp again (without bringing another burr in). Shouldn't take long.


----------



## bennyprofane

Yeah, somehow missed that, too. Thanks.


----------



## Grunt173

ian said:


> Also, small public service: let me repost what @Kippington said, to make up for the fact that when I was asking him questions above, I somehow hadn’t noticed that he explained every step of the video right underneath the embedded media.
> 
> I don’t think there’s anything to add to what’s below. Thanks again. Tried it out on some customers’ knives today and seemed to work pretty well, although the steel I was sharpening was pretty crappy so the whole process wasn’t very satisfying. Looking forward to trying it out on worthy steel.


After much trial and error, I use this method on every knife that I deburr, kitchen knives, hunting knives and even pocket knives.


----------



## Chef Doom

Sharpchef said:


> The gizmo, jiigs or what ever you call it, that we use is basically benchstone sharpening, nothing else... Just imagine a golf or tennis teacher leading your movement while hitting the target/ball.
> 
> It`s not just like giving an exact angle, it can reduce the pressure brought to piece of steel that is at least 10 times slimer than aluminium foil ! Remember that... Don `t joke about it, it makes sence, and will improve everybody`s sharpening....
> 
> In my test runs, and i was an absolute hater of Jiigs like EP Wicked edge etc.... laughed loud about it  .. So no matter what you gonna say about such things "you never will touch" etc....
> It works and it is faster then freehand, you get much sharper results (no problem to do a HHT-5 freehand, and i think some of you might get this too!) but the edge will fold roll and be unable to cut after a few cuts.... You know this problem... A Jiig like this solves this problem, and this is the cool thing about it... Take a good steel knife, sharper then a razor blade, and even sharper then most straight razors! (not a joke!) , and cut longer with it then with your best grind ever on medium stones.....
> 
> Back to topic, edge leading rulez! ask the Straight razor guys they know how to sharpen! Edge trailing is a waste of time...
> 
> Greets Sebastian.
> 
> Greets Sebastian.


As someone who likes cool technology I understand the fascination with fiddling with jigs. But for practical purposes you are fooling yourself.

Unless you have a fixed jig that never moves and you only use a couple of abrasives, the concept that it is quicker than free hand sharpening is a myth you jig sharpening guys have spread to convince yourselves why you can't park your car in your garages anymore or why half of your living room looks like it belongs in a garage.


----------



## HRC_64

Chef Doom said:


> Unless you have a fixed jig that never moves and you only use a couple of abrasives, the concept that it is quicker than free hand sharpening is a myth....



IF this think works only chosera 800/3K combo you're still 99% golden.


----------



## HRC_64

IMHO Freehand sharpening needs greater pressure levels to maintain stability, since higher degrees of freedom must be stabilized. A jig will always have N-2 (=4) degrees of freedom vs n-1 freehand (5) vs holding in space (N=6) df.

Hypothesis: a microbevel angel is more agressive so perhaps a more subtle amount of pressure is viable?


----------



## suntravel

Chef Doom said:


> As someone who likes cool technology I understand the fascination with fiddling with jigs. But for practical purposes you are fooling yourself.
> 
> Unless you have a fixed jig that never moves and you only use a couple of abrasives, the concept that it is quicker than free hand sharpening is a myth you jig sharpening guys have spread to convince yourselves why you can't park your car in your garages anymore or why half of your living room looks like it belongs in a garage.



sure, and a wood stove is also faster than induction 

Why are most guys using a ruler if they want to draw a straight line ? 

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Chef Doom

suntravel said:


> sure, and a wood stove is also faster than induction
> 
> Why are most guys using a ruler if they want to draw a straight line ?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe


You can definitely get a wood stove much hotter than an induction oven. Even self cleaning ovens Max out at 900 degrees which is so dangerous that the oven locks until complete.

With a wood oven you can get 800 degrees plus with no worrying about breakdown of electronics making both pizzas and seared steaks quicker and easier than stabbing a Paris cop during lunch hours.

Was that too soon? Are we still grieving for Paris? I didn't get the memo. Someone shoot me a memo.


----------



## suntravel

I like real fire also.....

but start with an cold woodstove or induction for two eggs 

Guess what is faster 

Regards

Uwe


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## Chef Doom

suntravel said:


> I like real fire also.....
> 
> but start with an cold woodstove or induction for two eggs
> 
> Guess what is faster
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



You are still comparing apples to oranges. Wood ovens are slow by nature and design.

A better comparison would be, say, French Press coffee to a coffee machine. Sure if the beans are in the filter, in the machine ready to go then it may be faster depending on the machine. But what if you want a finer or coarser grind? What if you want different water temperature? What if you want different water to bean ratio? What about cleanup? Then you see the French Coffee Press will shine in versatility and adaptability. A jig is neither of those things in comparison to free hand.


----------



## suntravel

so you can sharpen freehand a 400g cleaver only touching with 10g pressure the stone in an exact angle ?

With the jig i use anything can be done what is possible freehand, but with pressurecontrol, the only thing not possible is to mess up the angle or leaving upper and lower angel for convex sharpening. 

Regards

Uwe


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## Sharpchef

They don`t get it.....


----------



## Matus

Everyone please see post #59, thank you.


----------



## The Edge

To de-burr consistently, it comes down to understanding the relationship between *Force* and *Pressure*, understanding how a knife can move to maintain a steady angle using the entire stone's surface, and understanding the properties of the steel.

Geometry of the blade (based off of a maker's understanding of the material they are working with) is much more important in how long an edge lasts, than any other factor other than how it's being used.

Without any of that knowledge, whatever way your doing it, is just going through the motions. For some, that may be good enough, but others, well, I guess we're going down that rabbit hole.


----------



## Chef Doom

suntravel said:


> so you can sharpen freehand a 400g cleaver only touching with 10g pressure the stone in an exact angle ?
> 
> With the jig i use anything can be done what is possible freehand, but with pressurecontrol, the only thing not possible is to mess up the angle or leaving upper and lower angel for convex sharpening.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe


Nobody ever said you can measure specific pressure with freehand and to be honest that is not what it is for. And to be honest it is not something I care to measure even if you asked me to.


----------



## Chef Doom

The Edge said:


> To de-burr consistently, it comes down to understanding the relationship between *Force* and *Pressure*, understanding how a knife can move to maintain a steady angle using the entire stone's surface, and understanding the properties of the steel.
> 
> Geometry of the blade (based off of a maker's understanding of the material they are working with) is much more important in how long an edge lasts, than any other factor other than how it's being used.
> 
> Without any of that knowledge, whatever way your doing it, is just going through the motions. For some, that may be good enough, but others, well, I guess we're going down that rabbit hole.


That is not true. There are lots of ways to de-burr and I have not seen any side by side comparisons or experiments done to show various methods with various steels.


----------



## The Edge

Chef Doom said:


> That is not true. There are lots of ways to de-burr and I have not seen any side by side comparisons or experiments done to show various methods with various steels.



Hmmm, for some reason, I don't see where I said there is only one way to de-burr. I just tried to point out that using one method to de-burr, rather than understanding what's actually happening with the knife you're working on, is the wrong path. Maybe I was unclear. Knowledge is power, and there is never just one way to do anything.


----------



## Desert Rat




----------



## Desert Rat

Picture didn't show up. It's probably for the best because I had nothing nice to add to this pile anyway.


----------



## Chef Doom

The Edge said:


> Hmmm, for some reason, I don't see where I said there is only one way to de-burr. I just tried to point out that using one method to de-burr, rather than understanding what's actually happening with the knife you're working on, is the wrong path. Maybe I was unclear. Knowledge is power, and there is never just one way to do anything.


I can reiterate.

There are a few ways to de-burr consistently without any concern for force or pressure within reason.

When you cut into a cork the pressure increases the deeper you cut but nobody is measuring these things.

Assuming you are not exerting enough force to cut through frozen meat there is a wide tolerance for what is too much or too little force.


----------



## Steampunk

This thread has devolved into a 'jig vs. freehand' thread, which is unfortunate, as the OP's intent was merely to show some detail of his preferred deburring technique (With microscope images, which are always nice to see, and the vast majority of people who are into sharpening and are happy with their edges do not examine or share...)... There are lots of ways to achieve sharp culinary edges, which for me is part of the fun of sharpening. 

I am a freehand sharpener. Not because I believe it superior, but because I don't have access to a jig system that has been as well engineered as the Bogdan system, or some of the other more obscure jigs... I really enjoy the tactility of freehand sharpening, and am constantly learning about what I do, but every time I sharpen I am reminded that precision is never a _bad_ thing in creating an edge... Sure, less precise edges can still get the work done... But even for the freehand craftsman, there are days when your hands are steadier than others, and you can feel the difference in the edges you create... This is real. Unless robots are posting their sharpening results, we're all human. There's a zen to freehand sharpening a knife, and I could easily spend the rest of my life learning to do it better... But if I could achieve an edge with perfect angle and pressure control across the full curvature and length of a blade, using a jig, I'd do it every time unless the urge to rock it 'old school' took me over... Precision is part of what we try to train ourselves to do as freehand sharpeners, and a jig that is well designed theoretically can take that to the next level without degrading our 'craft'. 

Edge Pros and Wicked Edge type systems simply don't cut it... Their mechanism is too simplified, and too short to adapt to edges without visibly distorting them, and causing localized oversharpening and angle change on many different blade sizes and shapes. They're only accurate if you had a blade that matched the exact curvature of their arc... The sort of jig being talked about in this thread, is not the same sort most people associate with jig-based sharpening systems. 

I've not tried an edge from Sharpchef or Suntravel, nor do I own the jigs they're using... I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm simply someone who loves to cook, and finds sharpening relaxing, and has spent a lot of time on my own trying to do both better, and I really enjoy the tools I use (Knives, stones, cookware, stoves, etc.)... I can see both sides of the fence (At work in a professional kitchen in between shifts or on the fly, creating the most precise edge on a knife simply isn't possible. Short of using an actual steel, I'm not comfortable taking a knife to stone or strop without washing before and after, which adds a layer of inconvenience to the process which never feels practical... At home, or if you're doing this professionally in your workshop, you could deliver more precise edges...). 

I also straight shave, and sharpen my own razors... There's a big difference between a knife edge that can scrape-shave arm hair, and an edge that can pass a genuine HHT. I've sharpened edges freehand on knives that I've convinced myself I can comfortably shaved my face with... Then I've sharpened my razor fully on those same stones, and reminded myself that the precision sharpening with the blade riding flat on the spine affords me, puts that edge into an entirely different level. Precision does matter. As a human being, without a mechanism to align the blade, I'm not perfect at it. I'm good enough freehand to put a decent edge on a blade that can shave hair, and cut food, and pass all the standard paper/tissue tests, and shows no major defect under 120X magnification... But there's a lot of room for improvement still between my best, and worst day, and what I could theoretically create with some better alignment.

I have looked at enough microscope images of edges to know what I'm looking at, and whilst it would make even more sense at even higher than 230X (SEM images of edges are really fun to look at.), I can see the point Suntravel's trying to prove... There's some plastic drawing of the steel in the second image that isn't present in the first, and the first has a more consistent tooth profile at the apex. The first doesn't _look_ as keen at that angle, but it's also doubtlessly more stable. Edge-leading vs. edge-trailing deburring, even freehand, does create a different _feeling_ edge... Try it. Approach angle can also change the way a blade feels, and pressure is hugely important. I put the final edge on with only the weight of the blade held between my fingertips, and wish I could do even less; especially in areas the curvature increases, and so does the PSI. 

Most people would be beyond thrilled with any edge which was simply deburred properly on the stones (Edge trailing or leading), without actually breaking or wearing it off by cutting into cork/wood/felt, whether or not there was some wire-edge effect... However, if edge science is interesting to you, these images and what information Suntravel and Sharpchef are sharing is quite interesting. 

- Steampunk


----------



## The Edge

Chef Doom said:


> I can reiterate.
> 
> There are a few ways to de-burr consistently without any concern for force or pressure within reason.
> 
> When you cut into a cork the pressure increases the deeper you cut but nobody is measuring these things.
> 
> Assuming you are not exerting enough force to cut through frozen meat there is a wide tolerance for what is too much or too little force.



I respectfully disagree. Even de-burring in a cork requires you to properly form and weaken the burr for it to be removed in the cork. Even if someone doesn't understand the words force and pressure, they may instinctively know what to do.

Most people don't do a great job at de-burring, and even experts can miss parts of them. 

Seems weird that you think someone can consistently remove a burr without knowing what one is, how to form one, and how to remove it.


----------



## Chef Doom

The Edge said:


> I respectfully disagree. Even de-burring in a cork requires you to properly form and weaken the burr for it to be removed in the cork. Even if someone doesn't understand the words force and pressure, they may instinctively know what to do.
> 
> Most people don't do a great job at de-burring, and even experts can miss parts of them.
> 
> Seems weird that you think someone can consistently remove a burr without knowing what one is, how to form one, and how to remove it.



Forming a burr is a natural process. I don't see how a burr does not form unless you sharpen at high angles or just don't know how to sharpen in general.

You are confusing knowing versus caring. Besides, people do things in their daily lives without knowing the reason why. They simply go through the process they were taught. You can teach someone de-burring methods and never explain what the purpose is. It is all about the end result.

Who are these experts that you are referring to that don't remove burrs properly? Is this personal experience? 3rd party reports? Did you find this out through an ancient scroll written by cooks who complained that their local blade sharpener couldn't remove burrs properly?


----------



## Chef Doom

Steampunk said:


> This thread has devolved into a 'jig vs. freehand' thread, which is unfortunate, as the OP's intent was merely to show some detail of his preferred deburring technique - Steampunk



Where would KKF be without the regular thread hijacks? Besides, I stand by my opinion that jigs are not practical for most people. This is different if sharpening is your profession or if you have the dedicated space and time to experiment. I would never tell a person not to install a engine lift in their garage or a sewing machine in their living room.


----------



## Eloh

Yeah. But most people also don't need more than one kitchen knife or boxes full of natural stones etc. Obviously these things aren't for everyone.


----------



## The Edge

Chef Doom said:


> Forming a burr is a natural process. I don't see how a burr does not form unless you sharpen at high angles or just don't know how to sharpen in general.
> 
> You are confusing knowing versus caring. Besides, people do things in their daily lives without knowing the reason why. They simply go through the process they were taught. You can teach someone de-burring methods and never explain what the purpose is. It is all about the end result.
> 
> Who are these experts that you are referring to that don't remove burrs properly? Is this personal experience? 3rd party reports? Did you find this out through an ancient scroll written by cooks who complained that their local blade sharpener couldn't remove burrs properly?



This is all from personal experience. I'm a local knife sharpener, and compete against grocery stores that offer free sharpening. I've handled over 30 thousands knives, inspecting them, repairing them, and sharpening them. I've had amazing reviews, though I can admit, I've gotten some knives back that even I can acknowledge I've done a poor job (something about a doing 50 knives in a day while your back is screaming at you). 

There has been more than a couple occasions where I've had to repair work done by the "Other" places. To hold a knife that someone said was just sharpened, and to find not just burrs, but complete over-grinds. Maybe I read too much into it, but I have to know exactly what's wrong with a blade in order to know how to fix it properly. Then I just need to take my time to get there. I guess my point is something you just said, "They simply go through the process they were taught." 

I am amazed at the amount of people that have no clue as to how to put an edge on a knife. Its not necessarily a bad thing, as I'm sure I have no clue about most of what they know. Sharpening a knife, or at least getting a better edge on it than when you begin, is fairly simple, but the amount of people willing to put in the time to build a burr, let alone remove it properly is quite limited (and yes, there are multiple ways to do it, but setting it up to be removed easily can be tricky sometimes, even for the seasoned pro).


----------



## ian

The Edge said:


> This is all from personal experience. I'm a local knife sharpener, and compete against grocery stores that offer free sharpening. I've handled over 30 thousands knives, inspecting them, repairing them, and sharpening them. I've had amazing reviews, though I can admit, I've gotten some knives back that even I can acknowledge I've done a poor job (something about a doing 50 knives in a day while your back is screaming at you).
> 
> There has been more than a couple occasions where I've had to repair work done by the "Other" places. To hold a knife that someone said was just sharpened, and to find not just burrs, but complete over-grinds. Maybe I read too much into it, but I have to know exactly what's wrong with a blade in order to know how to fix it properly. Then I just need to take my time to get there. I guess my point is something you just said, "They simply go through the process they were taught."
> 
> I am amazed at the amount of people that have no clue as to how to put an edge on a knife. Its not necessarily a bad thing, as I'm sure I have no clue about most of what they know. Sharpening a knife, or at least getting a better edge on it than when you begin, is fairly simple, but the amount of people willing to put in the time to build a burr, let alone remove it properly is quite limited (and yes, there are multiple ways to do it, but setting it up to be removed easily can be tricky sometimes, even for the seasoned pro).



I imagine these grocery stores are just pulling the knife through a machine or somethjng like that, no? If so, I would indeed bet they don’t think at all about burr removal.


----------



## kayman67

Sharpening done right is pretty rare stuff.


----------



## The Edge

ian said:


> I imagine these grocery stores are just pulling the knife through a machine or somethjng like that, no? If so, I would indeed bet they don’t think at all about burr removal.



Depends on the store. Looks like they are independent from one another, and relies heavily on who's running the butcher department. Some on pull throughs, some on stones, some on 18" belt grinders with jigs. But not thinking about what they are doing is harsh, but most likely, bet.


----------



## ian

The Edge said:


> Depends on the store. Looks like they are independent from one another, and relies heavily on who's running the butcher department. Some on pull throughs, some on stones, some on 18" belt grinders with jigs. But not thinking about what they are doing is harsh, but most likely, bet.



Interesting. Where are you based? It’s hard to imagine a grocery store around here having someone use stones on anything. 

Unrelatedly, how’d you get into the business? I’ve been considering starting to charge a bit for my services, which so far have been free, although I’m not planning to ever do it as my main job. Were you originally a cook, or...? Did you just pick up a medium grit stone one day and start stropping? #ontopic


----------



## Desert Rat

Chef Doom said:


> Forming a burr is a natural process. I don't see how a burr does not form unless you sharpen at high angles or just don't know how to sharpen in general.
> 
> You are confusing knowing versus caring. Besides, people do things in their daily lives without knowing the reason why. They simply go through the process they were taught. You can teach someone de-burring methods and never explain what the purpose is. It is all about the end result.
> 
> Who are these experts that you are referring to that don't remove burrs properly? Is this personal experience? 3rd party reports? Did you find this out through an ancient scroll written by cooks who complained that their local blade sharpener couldn't remove burrs properly?


Bur sharpening isn't the only way to do it.


Chef Doom said:


> Forming a burr is a natural process. I don't see how a burr does not form unless you sharpen at high angles or just don't know how to sharpen in general.
> 
> You are confusing knowing versus caring. Besides, people do things in their daily lives without knowing the reason why. They simply go through the process they were taught. You can teach someone de-burring methods and never explain what the purpose is. It is all about the end result.
> 
> Who are these experts that you are referring to that don't remove burrs properly? Is this personal experience? 3rd party reports? Did you find this out through an ancient scroll written by cooks who complained that their local blade sharpener couldn't remove burrs properly?


What happens when them oil stone users take light alternating edge leading strokes, are they flipping a wire edge from one side to the other?


----------



## HRC_64

Desert Rat said:


> What happens when them oil stone users take light alternating edge leading strokes, are they flipping a wire edge from one side to the other?



The interesting idea is for deburr removal if you can use ulutra-low pressure to avoid problems...
either by avoiding burr formation or (potentially) avoiding slurry contamination/creation, etc...

Edge leading strokes don't creat burrs, plastic deformation is going the wront way...
but you have to give up waterstones and use oilstones...which is a non-starter.

On waterstones, the problem is abrasive slurry and edge leading strokes
don't really go together...pretty sure this is why Japanese method
doesn't do edge leading...

somdbody can probalby correct this if its wrong,
but it just seems like common sense :dunno:


----------



## ian

HRC_64 said:


> The interesting idea is for deburr removal if you can use ulutra-low pressure to avoid problems...
> either by avoiding burr formation or (potentially) avoiding slurry contamination/creation, etc...
> 
> Edge leading strokes don't creat burrs, plastic deformation is going the wront way...
> but you have to give up waterstones and use oilstones...which is a non-starter.
> 
> On waterstones, the problem is abrasive slurry and edge leading strokes
> don't really go together...pretty sure this is why Japanese method
> doesn't do edge leading...
> 
> somdbody can probalby correct this if its wrong,
> but it just seems like common sense :dunno:



I don’t know. Edge leading works fine for me on waterstones. You can certainly keep washing off your stone, for one, although I’m not sure how much even a thick slurry would damage an edge. It seems reasonable that it might. However, there are tons of conjectures you can make about sharpening by trying to visualize what’s happening at a microscopic level, and some of them turn out to be bogus since what you’re imagining isn’t actually significant to the end result. Anyway, I’ve found edge leading to be vastly better than edge trailing for burr removal on waterstones, especially on crappy stainless. (I do generally wash away the slurry during burr removal.)


----------



## Midsummer

suntravel said:


> For me the best way to get rid of burrs ist to do light short strokes edge leading, like sharpening about 45° to the edge. Gives a fine mikroserration and lots of bite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In comparison stropped edge trailing along the edge you get an wire edge with almost no bite and min. 50% less time on the board for the next touchup...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With finer stones the difference ist not so huge, but if you are looking for a toothy edge i would go with an steep angle edge leading.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe




Uwe, 
Thanks for the micrographs. Those are at 230 magnification? It would be neat to see the edge at 2k! Would love to have the habit of routinely checking each bevel at the time of sharpening. I imagine it would be very instructive. Thank you for your observations. Cheers!


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## Chef Doom

Desert Rat said:


> Bur sharpening isn't the only way to do it.
> 
> What happens when them oil stone users take light alternating edge leading strokes, are they flipping a wire edge from one side to the other?


The only time I ever used oil stones was when I did not know how to sharpen. It was like the old guys that know nothing about car repair standing around the engine drinking beer talking about women and sports with a turn of the socket wrench from time to time. Eventually someone pours water where the brake fluid was supposed to go.


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## Nemo

Edge leading strokes on a waterstone works fine for burr refinement for me. FWIW, I always rinse the stone first.


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## Matus

HRC_64 said:


> ...
> 
> Edge leading strokes don't creat burrs, plastic deformation is going the wront way...
> but you have to give up waterstones and use oilstones...which is a non-starter.
> 
> On waterstones, the problem is abrasive slurry and edge leading strokes
> don't really go together...pretty sure this is why Japanese method
> doesn't do edge leading...



The slurry can definitely be an issue - and increasingly so if you go ti finner grits (and wanting ever finer edge). If you look at straight razor honing - it is basically all done with edge leading (save for stropping). But even there - on a finishing natural stone - one uses VERY little slurry and adds water during this last honing stage to thin the slurry to control the dulling of the cutting edge (depending on the hardness of the stone sometimes the final touches are made with just water and no slurry). Final edge is achieved with stropping on cloth & leader - that is something we do not often do with knives. It is also the stage that makes is super easy to kill the edge (most likely my current problem with straight razor honing, btw.) - with knives it would be even easier to kill the super fine edge here.

So yes - I agree - edge leading strokes should not only be super light, but also done without slurry (unless one goes all the way up to super fine and hard natural stones) - at least on synthetic stones. I would also assume that the finishing stone should not be super soft as it would probably tend to abrade the edge more. I am guessing that the angle will have a large impact too.


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## Kozuka

As someone who loves all systems, let it be Freehand or Guided or Edge Pro Apex style, I really think this is super interesting.

Matter of fact I visited Uwe couple weeks ago and watched his deburr technique closely. I also started to deburr this way now and can say from (only a few) sharpening and cooking sessions so far that my sharpness now feels cleaner and lasts longer before it degrades.

Before this method I experimented with edge trailing / cork / leather combinations. Sometimes all, sometimes mixed, sometimes only one each.

Now I only do the Uwe-Deburr and it just works. (I just use the same stone as I finish on, no special Voodoo-Stone - typically Nakayama or Morihei Karasu 9000)


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## Desert Rat

HRC_64 said:


> The interesting idea is for deburr removal if you can use ulutra-low pressure to avoid problems...
> either by avoiding burr formation or (potentially) avoiding slurry contamination/creation, etc...
> 
> Edge leading strokes don't creat burrs, plastic deformation is going the wront way...
> but you have to give up waterstones and use oilstones...which is a non-starter.
> 
> On waterstones, the problem is abrasive slurry and edge leading strokes
> don't really go together...pretty sure this is why Japanese method
> doesn't do edge leading...
> 
> somdbody can probalby correct this if its wrong,
> but it just seems like common sense :dunno:


I believe this is correct. I do think edge leading can create a bur of sorts. Probably caused by excessive pressure and the apex digging into the stone or a soft stone, however one chooses to look at it.


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## Sharpchef

Slurry dulling is something straight razor guys argue about... But only on Coticules.... (I tested quite a few of them maybe 200 ? and i don`t think this is common even on coticules. ) .. There was only one belgian that really was not able to get a razor shave ready....

Some years ago i made this vid to demonstrate how dead simple razor honing on a coticule is :



So as you can see, and i hope most of the straight razor guys don`t use edge leading only, because it is a waste of time... , it works in finish stage only edge leading strokes. 

Arkansas or other very fine oilstones are the only stones (because they are kryptocristaline) that don`t form extensive burrs... Because they act like a file not like Sandpaper. 

The fine ones (lapped extreme fine and broken in) are not usable without a Jiig sadly. But for sure the only natural stones that can improve a 30k edge in terms of sharpness. 

Greets Sebastian.


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## Desert Rat

Sharpchef said:


> Slurry dulling is something straight razor guys argue about... But only on Coticules.... (I tested quite a few of them maybe 200 ? and i don`t think this is common even on coticules. ) .. There was only one belgian that really was not able to get a razor shave ready....
> 
> Some years ago i made this vid to demonstrate how dead simple razor honing on a coticule is :
> 
> 
> 
> So as you can see, and i hope most of the straight razor guys don`t use edge leading only, because it is a waste of time... , it works in finish stage only edge leading strokes.
> 
> Arkansas or other very fine oilstones are the only stones (because they are kryptocristaline) that don`t form extensive burrs... Because they act like a file not like Sandpaper.
> 
> The fine ones (lapped extreme fine and broken in) are not usable without a Jiig sadly. But for sure the only natural stones that can improve a 30k edge in terms of sharpness.
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



Ok, I am the guy you are describing struggling with a small newly purchased coticule. Been an Arkansas user my whole life and not usually a bur sharpener so the alternating edge leading strokes is my more natural way. Back to the stones I go and thanks for sharing.


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## Sharpchef

Desert Rat said:


> Ok, I am the guy you are describing struggling with a small newly purchased coticule. Been an Arkansas user my whole life and not usually a bur sharpener so the alternating edge leading strokes is my more natural way. Back to the stones I go and thanks for sharing.



No i don`t even know you  ... I talked about threads in Badger and Blade forum years ago... 

Greets Sebastian.


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## captaincaed

Sharpchef said:


> Slurry dulling is something straight razor guys argue about... But only on Coticules.... (I tested quite a few of them maybe 200 ? and i don`t think this is common even on coticules. ) .. There was only one belgian that really was not able to get a razor shave ready....
> 
> Some years ago i made this vid to demonstrate how dead simple razor honing on a coticule is :
> 
> 
> 
> So as you can see, and i hope most of the straight razor guys don`t use edge leading only, because it is a waste of time... , it works in finish stage only edge leading strokes.
> 
> Arkansas or other very fine oilstones are the only stones (because they are kryptocristaline) that don`t form extensive burrs... Because they act like a file not like Sandpaper.
> 
> The fine ones (lapped extreme fine and broken in) are not usable without a Jiig sadly. But for sure the only natural stones that can improve a 30k edge in terms of sharpness.
> 
> Greets Sebastian.




I'm always trying to improve with my fine arkansas stones. Why do you say they're not usable without a jig?


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## Sharpchef

captaincaed said:


> I'm always trying to improve with my fine arkansas stones. Why do you say they're not usable without a jig?


I just like to say that slow stones (even synthetics in this grid range don`t make sense by hand), especially a transluent Arkansas that is broken in.... Does nearly nothing, and you need at least 50-100 passes per side, without Angle control this could last for a few hours ....  . 

Greets Sebastian.


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## captaincaed

That’s what I thought you might say - the fatigue over time is a real factor


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## Oshidashi

This thread is pretty amazing, and there is a great deal of talent here. What intrigues me is how the sharpening of a blade, which should be a science, is instead really an art. It is an art because the craft of freehand sharpening goes way back, many thousands or tens of thousands of years I think, and is handed down to us as a freehand skill that has maintained the great feature of man's pride in manual skillfulness, a feature that too few pursuits in our world still have. Fine sharpening is an art that results in an edge so magnificently sharp we cannot even see it, an edge that might shave the delicate hair of a princess or cut off a man's head in one quick swipe. I, too, undertake freehand whetstone sharpening, and it is an enjoyable exercise, relaxing for the mind, pleasantly repetitive motions and sounds, and I take pride in my razor edge when I achieve it. Even if I decapitate no higher being than a fish.

But it should be a science, or at the least, the art of hand sharpening ought to be better informed by science. I mean, what is the consistently best way to achieve a hard and sharp edge, what is the surest way to gauge knife sharpness, what does that burr look like up close as it's coming off the edge, what does that freshly deburred edge really leave behind? Is deburring always necessary? Does the burr actually come off in long metal hairs? Is it really possible to deburr by simply grinding it into dust by leading strokes? I would love to see slow motion video-microscophotography of a knife edge during sharpening. I'm sure that is somehow possible, though it might require such sophisticated methods as would require the expertise of the MIT Media lab. It ought to be done such that the camera is affixed to the blade and can focus on the edge with great magnification, while the blade is put through its paces by a master sharpener, and then edited to show us what is really going on down there. (Maybe though such a video already exists?)


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## panda

all this mumbo jumbo over what I have already been doing this whole time. you pull the knife towards you and you get good edge that cuts food really well instead of drawing fairies on printer paper.


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## M1k3

panda said:


> all this mumbo jumbo over what I have already been doing this whole time. you pull the knife towards you and you get good edge that cuts food really well instead of drawing fairies on printer paper.


Then what do you use to draw your fairies on printer paper?


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## panda

M1k3 said:


> Then what do you use to draw your fairies on printer paper?


crayons


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## Oshidashi

I get it when you guys are complaining about all this wordiness, because when sharpening a knife, if you know how to do, it is really pretty quick and simple. But the details brought up in this thread have driven my curiosity about what is happening at the microscopic level.


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## Ruso

So is edge leading better? What about lateral swipes for burr removal?


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## M1k3

Ruso said:


> So is edge leading better? What about lateral swipes for burr removal?


Not necessarily better. Just a way to make sure all the burr has been removed. Lateral works also. I just got in the habit of using it, so I can use the same motion to touch up an edge while avoiding a burr. Muscle memory.


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