# Hiromoto stops



## Benuser (Jul 16, 2014)

Mr Nagao, maker of the Hiromoto knives, has ended production of his regular series of Ginsang-3, Aogami Super and VG-10 Damascus knives, as Mr Koki Iwahara confirmed.


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## Jordanp (Jul 16, 2014)

Better buy one while you can I guess.....


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## jsjs103121 (Jul 16, 2014)

Ah... that's sad news. Better get myself a few before they run out... 
Thanks for letting us know.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 16, 2014)

NO!!!!!!


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## Ruso (Jul 16, 2014)

Sad news, I am yet to pull the trigger on one of his knives.
If you would buy right now one of them which series would be the go to?


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## jsjs103121 (Jul 16, 2014)

Well, I just sent an email to Koki asking him to get one of the AS series gyutos for me.
I'm planning to use it for a while and when the time comes I'll send it to Dave for his full spa treatment.


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## Jordanp (Jul 16, 2014)

Seriously its taking all my willpower to not pull the trigger on a 270mm AS gyuto ullhair:


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## Benuser (Jul 16, 2014)




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## Jordanp (Jul 17, 2014)




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## Ruso (Jul 17, 2014)

Jordanp said:


> Seriously its taking all my willpower to not pull the trigger on a 270mm AS gyuto ullhair:



I pulled the trigger on 180mm AS Gyuto, better now then never.


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## easy13 (Jul 17, 2014)

I've been putting off grabbing another AS since I left it in a cab with some others. A classic and a beast, used to pretty much use it as a yo deba. Will definitely pick up a 240 to keep in the collection.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Jul 17, 2014)

Sad news. I don't know other affordable SS clad knives that would performs as good as Hiromoto's knives after some tweaking.


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## zerafa (Jul 17, 2014)

those white steel units are also very cool. I think Nagao is essentially finished working, and the "master" works are those white steel pieces, which are very very nice. I have the AS martel, old white steel with bad bolsters - with new scales installed by adam, white steel clad looking good, and the new white steel treated - new in box.

i really like the profile of these knives, the old white steel knife is just fantastic, sharpened them all this past weekend. But that is just a stunning easy to use, easy to sharpen, great kitchen tool. My goto knife


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## CoqaVin (Jul 17, 2014)

so are these made in a factory and mass produced, or no?


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## Jagjit (Jul 17, 2014)

Picked up a white 240 honyaki... now I guess we will know how they perform.


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## Benuser (Jul 17, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> so are these made in a factory and mass produced, or no?


Small factory, small batches, good HT, uneven F&F, decent OOTB edge. Not what I would call mass production like Shun, Global of Wüsthof.


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## LarryC (Jul 17, 2014)

Quick question from a beginner here: is a clad blade hard to maintain and after how long will a see some patina on the edge?


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## LarryC (Jul 17, 2014)

my question should go like this: are these knives a good choice for a beginner like myself?


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## Mute-on (Jul 17, 2014)

LarryC said:


> my question should go like this: are these knives a good choice for a beginner like myself?



Cut a capsicum and the edge will patina immediately. Very cool. 
The cladding is stainless so no patina.

It's a great choice for a beginner IME. :doublethumbsup:


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## CutFingers (Jul 18, 2014)

That's too bad those knives were the least expensive super steel clad knife on the market. Hopefully somebody will fill the niche.


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## ThEoRy (Jul 18, 2014)

CutFingers said:


> That's too bad those knives were the least expensive super steel clad knife on the market. Hopefully somebody will fill the niche.



Jon!!!


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

you know, i'm not a particularly big fan of aogami super in kitchen knives personally

as a side note, and on a slightly related subject, i know a lot of people are always looking for deals and less expensive knives... consider this:

The world of knife craftsmen in japan is getting smaller and smaller each year. Many young people dont enter the field because there is no financial future in it, or the current masters dont believe that if they take on an apprentice, that person will be able to make a living doing this kind of job. Part of the reason we always try to pay people a fair wage for their work is so that this world of craftsmen can continue. Most retail stores here deal with wholesalers, who, when asked, will often put pressure on the craftsmen to complete work at such and such a price, which can make it harder for them to survive in the long run. I would encourage people to think about this next time they buy a knife...

not only does the price need to be fair for you (of course it does, and thats a big part of it), but the retailer needs to be able to make a living, and so does the craftsman. Its an issue of balance.


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## labor of love (Jul 18, 2014)

JBroida said:


> you know, i'm not a particularly big fan of aogami super in kitchen knives personally


this isnt the first time Ive heard you say this. Im curious why you feel this way?


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

its a function of what the steel is designed for...
blue super contains higher carbon content than other common hitachi steels, along with more chromium and tungsten. Because of that, it tends to be a higher hardness. Also, it tends to have a higher volume of larger carbides. Its designed to have the best edge retention, but that comes at the cost of brittleness, greater difficulty in sharpening, and decreased structural stability when compared to the other common carbon steels by hitachi. I prefer steels that sharpen more easily and have greater structural stability, while being less brittle... even if that costs me a bit in edge retention. For example, blue #1 can be a great steel.

Also, depending on the knife type, my preference in steels/heat treatments will vary.

This is not to say aogami super is not a good knife for kitchen knives... just not my personal preference.


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## panda (Jul 18, 2014)

takeda is super easy to sharpen, watanabe blue #2 is quite difficult.


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

again, depends on HT... for example, watanabe's blue #2 is on the brittle side as well


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## panda (Jul 18, 2014)

but the retention is legendary!


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## Erilyn75 (Jul 18, 2014)

Just a heads up: The F&F might be a bit iffy on the Hiros. I ordered a few pieces a couple of months ago and asked Koki to send me the best looking ones he had and they were rough to say the least. Dave said it looked like whoever finished them had the shakes. I just ordered a G3 Suji to complete my Hiro collection. Hopefully it's in better shape than the other 3 I purchased.


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## ThEoRy (Jul 18, 2014)

JBroida said:


> you know, i'm not a particularly big fan of aogami super in kitchen knives personally
> 
> as a side note, and on a slightly related subject, i know a lot of people are always looking for deals and less expensive knives... consider this:
> 
> ...




Fair enough. Doesn't need to be Aogami Super. I think if anyone can fill this void left behind, certainly the Gesshin line could deliver. Whatever carbon steel, heat treatment etc wrapped in stainless, certainly there's a large market for it. I'm sure whatever you guys develop will be a hit. oke1:


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## CutFingers (Jul 18, 2014)

Good info Jon. Hopefully you can continue to develop products that are priced well enough for both parties to be satisfied. I'm hopeful that some of the youngsters will be inspired to keep with it.


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## mhpr262 (Jul 18, 2014)

Maybe things will change. For a long time Herder in Solingen had the only master of the technique called "blaupließten" left in Solingen and the world (Wilfried Fehrekamp) and it was expected his art would die out with him. But interest in high quality knife making revived and he was able to take on and train some apprentices. I recently bought a 1922 series chef's knife for my collection and the grind was flawless, he trained them well.


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## LarryC (Jul 18, 2014)

as for me, I just bought a 150mm AS Petty and a 210mm AS Gyuto! Can't wait to have them!


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 19, 2014)

Nice Larry now you need a water stone to keep your edges sharp:knife:


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## LarryC (Jul 19, 2014)

and some practice too!


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm tempted to pick one up before they run out but there'd be no point if they're too asymmetric for a lefty; could anyone advise on how pronounced the asymmetry is on Hiromoto knives?

On a related note, do they run true to the stated length?


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## Benuser (Jul 19, 2014)

If I were left-handed I wouldn't go for a Hiromoto gyuto unless specially ordered which is now out of the question. Fairly asymmetric. Expect stiction issues with the relatively flat left face. They run a bit short. The size reflects rather the distance from tip to bolster.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 19, 2014)

Hiromotos are pretty right handed asymmetric (at least 70/30). Maybe a lefty user/owner can chime in to say if it's an issue or not.


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## JDA_NC (Jul 19, 2014)

MAS4T0 said:


> I'm tempted to pick one up before they run out but there'd be no point if they're too asymmetric for a lefty; could anyone advise on how pronounced the asymmetry is on Hiromoto knives?
> 
> On a related note, do they run true to the stated length?



It's definitely pronounced.

I don't know if I'd say they're too asymmetric, it's treated me pretty well, but if I had to do it again as a lefty, I would get something different. Food release is pretty poor, like most Japanese knives for us, but I had no issues with steering OOTB. I did face some after repeated sharpening, but I'm sure that's as much of a technique issue. It was easily fixed. I've tinkered with it a lot and so it's been a good learning experience, but its geometry does work against lefties...

Edit: I'll also say that I've never felt the Hiromoto AS to be chippy or brittle. I have not babied mine at all and never had any issues. It feels like it's much more on the softer/more durable side. But I don't feel like its edge retention (in a professional environment at least) is magical either.


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## Ruso (Jul 19, 2014)

> Edit: I'll also say that I've never felt the Hiromoto AS to be chippy or brittle. I have not babied mine at all and never had any issues. It feels like it's much more on the softer/more durable side. But I don't feel like its edge retention (in a professional environment at least) is magical either.


If I remember correctly Hirmoto hardens AS to something around 60HRC, while many other AS blades are more like 63+HRC. So yea, it should be on a softer side if the previous is correct


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## JBroida (Jul 19, 2014)

yeah... its on the softer side for sure. Thats why you can see blue #2 from other makers with significantly better edge retenion. Still a great knife though... i have quite a few in my personal collection (though they get admittedly less use now days)


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## berko (Jul 20, 2014)

> i have quite a few in my personal collection



i wonder what else is in there


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## seattle_lee (Jul 21, 2014)

Dave Martell said:


> Hiromotos are pretty right handed asymmetric (at least 70/30). Maybe a lefty user/owner can chime in to say if it's an issue or not.



Never been a problem for me. Had my 210 AS for probably 5 years now.


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## mistascoopa (Jul 21, 2014)

JBroida said:


> its a function of what the steel is designed for...
> blue super contains higher carbon content than other common hitachi steels, along with more chromium and tungsten. Because of that, it tends to be a higher hardness. Also, it tends to have a higher volume of larger carbides. Its designed to have the best edge retention, but that comes at the cost of brittleness, *greater difficulty in sharpening*, and decreased structural stability when compared to the other common carbon steels by hitachi. I prefer steels that sharpen more easily and have greater structural stability, while being less brittle... even if that costs me a bit in edge retention. For example, blue #1 can be a great steel.
> 
> Also, depending on the knife type, my preference in steels/heat treatments will vary.
> ...



Can Jon or anyone else chime in on why AS is more difficult to sharpen? 

My thoughts are that steels of a higher hardness containing added chromium, tungsten, etc., would just take slightly longer to sharpen, and not necessarily be more difficult. My techniques don't change much when sharpening different steels other than things like angles, pressures, and stones I use. So I am assuming I am missing something here. What changes in technique must be applied when sharpening this steel at a high hardness or other steels with larger carbides?

Thanks.


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## JBroida (Jul 21, 2014)

mistascoopa said:


> Can Jon or anyone else chime in on why AS is more difficult to sharpen?
> 
> My thoughts are that steels of a higher hardness containing added chromium, tungsten, etc., would just take slightly longer to sharpen, and not necessarily be more difficult. My techniques don't change much when sharpening different steels other than things like angles, pressures, and stones I use. So I am assuming I am missing something here. What changes in technique must be applied when sharpening this steel at a high hardness or other steels with larger carbides?
> 
> Thanks.


in my mind, more time consuming=more difficult

higher carbon generally equals higher hardness, which takes more time

higher hard/large carbide volume due to alloying elements also tends to equate to more time on the stones


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## WildBoar (Jul 21, 2014)

This thread inspired me to push the DT ITK aside over the weekend and spend some time with my Dave M-treated Hiro AS gyuto. It made quick work of some onions and garlic. I really need to pull this one out of the block a little more often.


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## mistascoopa (Jul 22, 2014)

Thanks Jon. I knew I was over thinking it. :beatinghead:


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## LarryC (Jul 22, 2014)

received my AS today. I got to fully understand the expression "scary sharp".


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## IndoorOutdoorCook (Jul 22, 2014)

That's just out of the box sharpness. The knife has even more potential!


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## Jordanp (Jul 24, 2014)

Dangit caved and bought a 270mm hirimoto AS gyuto maybe next time I'll make it 8 days


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## mhlee (Jul 25, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Mr Nagao, maker of the Hiromoto knives, has ended production of his regular series of Ginsang-3, Aogami Super and VG-10 Damascus knives, as Mr Koki Iwahara confirmed.



Aww. That's too bad. 

You won't be able to recommend a new Hiromoto to nearly every single member once the stock is sold out. You might actually have to buy and try some new knives.


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## toddnmd (Jul 25, 2014)

mhlee said:


> Aww. That's too bad.
> 
> You won't be able to recommend a new Hiromoto to nearly every single member once the stock is sold out. You might actually have to buy and try some new knives.



Uncalled for. And unnecessary.


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## ecchef (Jul 25, 2014)

Second that.


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## glestain (Jul 30, 2014)

Jagjit said:


> Picked up a white 240 honyaki... now I guess we will know how they perform.



Did you get your honyaki? Wonder how it perform.


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## Jagjit (Jul 31, 2014)

Yes I did get the honyaki. At this price range I got what I was expecting. The knife weighs 234 g for a 240mm. 48.5 mm tall. The steel is excellent and gets very sharp. It's sharpness is only matched by a gesshin honyaki suji that I have. It wasn't too difficult to sharpen. I started at 500 and set my bevels. About 10 degrees on the right and 6 or 7 on the left. Held its edge for a shift at work. Was brought back to shave sharp after a couple stops. This knife is flat on the left side (when looking down at the spine) and convex on the right side. It wedges in food you would expect it to, carrots, potatoes, leeks, etc. It needs to be thinned out. The spine and choil are not rounded. Handle is probably black stamina wood as the other hiromoto lines. It's flush , it does the job. It feels really good when cutting. It's one of those knives that you will need to put a bit of work into and maybe slap on a custom handle. I don't forsee myself getting a knife to replace this one.

Edit: forgot to add that the Hamon is barely visible at the right angle. I personally don't care but thought you'd like to know


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## skyorbital (Feb 28, 2015)

Just went back to JCK after a long while and saw this notice on the site, a real shame as others have said. 

I first bought an AS 180mm Gyuto several years ago and it was a fantastic knife, I found the balance between ease of sharpening and edge retention to be well judged because as noted in the thread it isn't quite as hard as this steel can be, so for someone of good but still improving sharpening skills it was a knife I could get great sharpness from despite having more to learn about exploiting a knives full potential.

I sold that one as part of my early exploration of Japanese knives but I've got another on the way, and this time I'll really be able to get the best out of it, still a great shame that these knives will end with the current maker.


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## chefcomesback (Feb 28, 2015)

It's not just hiromoto facing this issue , he didn't have a successor to take over his business , not all the makers kids follow the family business , if I was single and little younger I would be knocking on his door to take me as an apprentice 
Takeda San doesn't have a son to pass in his business either but I think Yousui Nakanishi may be the driving force in future for him


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## Ucmd (Feb 28, 2015)

Just picked up a 240 from cktg. Probably beat it up and then send to dave to spa


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## labor of love (Mar 1, 2015)

chefcomesback said:


> It's not just hiromoto facing this issue , he didn't have a successor to take over his business , not all the makers kids follow the family business , if I was single and little younger I would be knocking on his door to take me as an apprentice
> Takeda San doesn't have a son to pass in his business either but I think Yousui Nakanishi may be the driving force in future for him



It would be a sad day if Takeda ever closed shop.


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## panda (Mar 1, 2015)

If he (Takeda) closed I would buy two more old stock just for backup.


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## Ucmd (Mar 1, 2015)

panda said:


> If he (Takeda) closed I would buy two more old stock just for backup.



How can you buy old stock. I have an old 270 mm which I adore. I'd buy a petty if I know it'll be similar to older production knives.


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## panda (Mar 1, 2015)

i mean from what ever is left in inventory. i don't care about older/latest production versions. forge is the same, secondary bevel i can alter myself if it's not thin enough.


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## supersayan3 (Mar 4, 2015)

Koki from JCK told me that according to master Nagao, Hiromoto AS is hardness 63-64.

I asked him yesterday out of curiosity.

Not that it matters, it is a great knife anyway, no matter the hardness, it is just that recently I got gyutos 20-24-27cm, and just for the record I was curious to know what I really had

The ones that I got 24-27cm , have very good handles(not the best, but very good, smooth, perfect fitting) and are pretty thin over the cutting edge. They must have been from the last batch.

The 20cm is flying right now, I suppose it will be in my home in 2 days


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## Benuser (Mar 11, 2015)

As always, take the Rc indications with a grain of salt. If I compare the last batches with previous ones, I would say the grain is a bit smaller. Less aggressive, more refined. I'm no metallurgist.
A good alternative to the Hiromoto is the Kagayaki aogami #2 clad. Much better F&F, great handle I would compare to a Misono, stone sharpened edge, crazy sharpness OOTB if you mind. But a geometry that reminds old Hiromotos, thin edges but thick behind it.


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## supersayan3 (Mar 18, 2015)

-As always, take the Rc indications with a grain of salt-

What do you mean by that? Can you send me a tutorial link please?

Thank you!


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## banjo1071 (Mar 18, 2015)

Means: HRC can vary quite bit, dependening on various factors.


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## Benuser (Mar 18, 2015)

The Rc indications by resellers are approximate; even when a large margin has been formulated, reality is often beyond. They do not correspond to a real measurement, nor are they a guarantee. The are different from one reseller to another, and vary over time.
Now, the Rc of specimens will vary as well.


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## Noodle Soup (Mar 23, 2015)

All this talk about Hiromoto stopping making knives sent me over to the Japan Chef Knife website to see what I needed before they were gone. Picking are getting pretty slim! I ordered a 5-inch yo-deba thinking it might be a handy blade for quartering poultry and the like. The knife came today and it really isn't what I expected. Much lighter and thinner edged than my larger yo-debas. It is more like a short, wide French chef knife. I think I can find a use for it but not doing the sort of things I originally intended.


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## Benuser (Mar 23, 2015)

5" yo-deba? Any picture?


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## Noodle Soup (Mar 23, 2015)

Try the website. I gave up trying to post photos to this forum.


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## Benuser (Mar 23, 2015)

The only I see is 240mm yo-deba, sold out, and a 5" honesuki. Is yours one of these?


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## Noodle Soup (Mar 23, 2015)

Gingami No. 3 Series, TJ65G3. Only the 170 is shown in the photos but I think it is already sold out.


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