# Takeda - More Issues



## Dave Martell (May 2, 2017)

The last 3 Takeda gyutos that I sharpened have all been complete and utter pain in the ass jobs and I'm here to talk about it. :bashhead:


In the past I had always LOVED to sharpen Takeda's knives. They were always ground nice and thin with even bevels. They were tough to abrade, being AS steel, but not impossible and what always made my day was how cleanly they would de-burr and how insanely sharp the resulting edge would be. Well....all that's changed. 

Now? I hate to even think about these knives let alone sharpen them and heaven forbid I get a Takeda in for repair. :scared4: 

OK most of us already know that something changed over at Takeda HQ a few years ago when we started seeing thick convex edges. These came to our attention when new owners reported poor performance. One customer sent her gyuto back to Japan for Takeda to regrind and this came back nice, in the old school grind fashion. I've also re-ground more than a few of these wedgers taking them back to the old Takeda geometry. That was bad enough of an issue that I started recommending against their purchase but what's been hitting me lately is a whole new ball of wax and has me going crazy.

What I believe I'm seeing is poor heat treatment in the form of what many knifemaker's call "retained austenite". I also believe that these knives are left way over hardened. I'm seeing conditions where it's nearly impossible to remove a wire edge/burr. It's absolutely nuts the extent I've had to go on the last 3 Takedas I've had in to remove the burr. I thought Aritsugu A-types were bad in this regard (and they actually are) but these Takedas may be worse. 

One of the more recent jobs I had in (just last week) I received in a total of 4 knives, 1 being a Takeda gyuto. I sharpened the 3 other knives by hand first, one of these being a wide beveled gyuto that required some hand work to repair the bevel (and nicks) plus I sanded the blade to even out the shinogi line (from past sharpening) and all those combined took 1/2 the time that the Takeda gyuto took to sharpen. I found this Takeda absolutely horrible to work on the stones, grinding 120x stones down instantly while skidding on the Bester 500x (which has always been my go to stone for Takeda AS). I didn't even attempt to thin the bevel, just sharpen the knife following Takeda's convex thick edge. Once I raised a burr I spent _*hours*_ trying to remove it using every trick in the book, and I've got many. It was maddening and all I could think of was, "how is the average user going to do this at home?"


Also worth noting is that I couldn't make these last 3 blades as pretty as I usually do. Neither the cladding nor core steels would accept a kasumi type finish, not even from natural stones. Very weird. :dontknow:


I'm at the point where I'm going to have to talk to my Takeda customers pre-work regarding these issues (much like I have to do with Moritakas). I'm saddened by this downward turn from what I used to regard as a great maker.


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## fatboylim (May 2, 2017)

Thank you for the heads up! I have always been tempted to try a Takeda but erred on the side of caution. Now I will positively avoid them!


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## cheflivengood (May 2, 2017)

Ive repaired a yanagi like that before, the edge would just not get smooth, no matter how high a grit I went it felt like it was straight off atoma 140


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## DanDan (May 2, 2017)

_But I thought all that matters was that they look badass, right? _


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## rick_english (May 2, 2017)

Do you have pictures of good and bad ones?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 2, 2017)

OK, I'll die from knifestick injuries from asking too many stupid half-off-thread questions... you say "overhardened" ... you sure had some Azai or Sukenari AS, both of which claim/are claimed to be hardened far far up. Or maybe one of these: http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/860/sakon-aogami-super-gyuto-stainless (the board accident photoset. Got one from that line, I find it microchip prone but indeed rather macrochip stable, and it does get razor sharp on the stones easily. As explained in that thread, oil hardened AS that is sometimes claimed as 63, sometimes as 65+). How do they compare - or is the problem actually in the *hardening*/quenching and not in the tempering? " I'm seeing conditions where it's nearly impossible to remove a wire edge/burr." because it breaks off unclean, or because it is tough?


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## Jacob_x (May 2, 2017)

Such a shame. I have a takeda suji that's only 2 years old, but it comes up razor and deburrs easily. I hope this doesn't put people off trying to seek out older models.


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## DaveInMesa (May 2, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Thank you for the heads up! I have always been tempted to try a Takeda but erred on the side of caution. Now I will positively avoid them!



+1 Thanks, Dave


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## fatboylim (May 2, 2017)

Jacob_x said:


> Such a shame. I have a takeda suji that's only 2 years old, but it comes up razor and deburrs easily. I hope this doesn't put people off trying to seek out older models.



Older models perhaps and only from known forum members like your good self!


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## Jacob_x (May 2, 2017)

get those eyes away from my suji! :nunchucks:


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## fatboylim (May 2, 2017)

Look over there... YOINK


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## Miles (May 2, 2017)

Love my Takeda suji. Had nothing but positive experience with it. Disappointing to hear.


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## Noodle Soup (May 2, 2017)

He will be in Atlanta in a few weeks. Why don't you confront him there and find out his side of the story? I've used a lot of his knives with no problems but I haven't bought a new one in maybe 10 years. The prices just went up too much for me.


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## Dave Martell (May 2, 2017)

I can't afford to go to the supermarket let alone Blade.


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## sergeysus (May 2, 2017)

Disappointed to hear this as well. I have several knives from Takeda they are very inconsistent as far as grinds go.


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## malexthekid (May 2, 2017)

&#128532;. This is saddening to hear. As a lover of tall gyutos i was told Takeda is a must have. But not keen on forking out the money on an unknown quantity.


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## Sporks (May 3, 2017)

I actually just got a Takeda nakiri that I'm sure I'll be sending to you at some point, Dave. Lucky you. :laugh:


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## labor of love (May 3, 2017)

Anyone else notice how wear resistant the cladding(even the carbon cladding) on takedas are these days? Takeda laughed at 400, 300 and 240 grit stones-I could make progress on the bevels only using an atoma. I lost a lot of life from my atoma doing so.


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## StonedEdge (May 3, 2017)

Plasma cutter the next step?


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## labor of love (May 3, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Plasma cutter the next step?



That's why everyone is sending these things to Jon and Dave. Presumably.


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## sergeysus (May 3, 2017)

labor of love said:


> That's why everyone is sending these things to Jon and Dave. Presumably.



Sending any knife to Dave or John for performance is a good idea. I've never tried to move up a shinogi line my self - as I would come to the same conclusion. Prefer to let the guys who do this all the time and do it right. Its such a reasonable price for the amount of work.

Seems like Takeda is 'experimenting' with process - too bad the customers get crappy knives. The quality is suffering and so is the reputation. Makes his older knives more desirable/valuable.


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## LucasFur (May 3, 2017)

Removing the Bur, I dont know. 

But I see people complain about the grind. Taping the spine to adjust for angle to attack the shoulder worked like a charm for me.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/27273-Takeda-thinning-(LucasFur-Method)?highlight=


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## foody518 (May 3, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Anyone else notice how wear resistant the cladding(even the carbon cladding) on takedas are these days? Takeda laughed at 400, 300 and 240 grit stones-I could make progress on the bevels only using an atoma. I lost a lot of life from my atoma doing so.



Carbon cladding? That is terrifying


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## Dave Martell (May 3, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Anyone else notice how wear resistant the cladding(even the carbon cladding) on takedas are these days? Takeda laughed at 400, 300 and 240 grit stones-I could make progress on the bevels only using an atoma. I lost a lot of life from my atoma doing so.




Yes exactly! I killed an Atoma about 6 months ago on a Takeda so I knew not to do that again. It's crazy how abrasion resistant they are now.

Plus, I also noticed that the cladding wanted to polish vs mist as usual.


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## Dave Martell (May 3, 2017)

Please send all Takeda work to Jon.


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## sergeysus (May 3, 2017)

Dave Martell said:


> Please send all Takeda work to Jon.



:thumbsup:


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## JBroida (May 3, 2017)

seriously though, we see a lot of them in our sharpening service now days


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## Dave Martell (May 3, 2017)

JBroida said:


> seriously though, we see a lot of them in our sharpening service now days




Do you use the wheel on them Jon?


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## JBroida (May 3, 2017)

it depends... some are still in good shape and the bevels make sense... but for ones that require some regrinding or when the customers ask for thinning, yes... the wheel gets a workout... but so do my coarse stones


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## Dave Martell (May 3, 2017)

JBroida said:


> it depends... some are still in good shape and the bevels make sense... but for ones that require some regrinding or when the customers ask for thinning, yes... the wheel gets a workout... but so do my coarse stones




Yeah I'm sure that you have to go to the stones after the wheel. Lots 'O grinding!


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## aboynamedsuita (May 3, 2017)

Jon and Sam F at JKI did a good job on my NAS Takeda (from 2014), it didn't need much work on the bevels not sure how difficult it was for them though. It strikes a good balance where it's at right now.

There's a bit of a back story to this knife where Shosui made it to exactly 270 after a defective knife (see below) was sent, so perhaps extra care was taken with this one. 

When I see pics of some of the older grind ones (such as at zknives) there is definitely a difference between them and even mine, but most noticeably with the new ones. I saw a 210 gyuto on BST that was almost 2mm more at the spine than my 270, and the bevel seriously looked to be less than 5mm, so unless it was super thin at the edge (unlikely) it would have been ground much different

BTW Here is the defective knife with weird marks all over it, and an additional kanji second from the bottom (not sure what it means)


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## aboynamedsuita (May 3, 2017)

aboynamedsuita said:


> ...it didn't need much work on the bevels not sure how difficult it was for them though. It strikes a good balance where it's at right now.



Just to clarify I mean this in the sense of raising the shinogi / more acute bevel to be less wedgy. Still has good food release.


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## JBroida (May 3, 2017)

yeah... wasnt so bad in terms of the scope of work... just ended up being right in the middle of a very busy time for us. Its funny, but the sharpening goes in waves. We were slammed a week ago, and i'm nearly done with everyone in my queue today... just 2 large projects that are a bit more time-consuming and i'm chipping away at slowly.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 3, 2017)

It was worth the wait for the Takeda, no problem.

Perhaps I can send a Moritaka cleaver and you can see how they compare


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## inzite (May 3, 2017)

aboynamedsuita said:


> Jon and Sam F at JKI did a good job on my NAS Takeda (from 2014), it didn't need much work on the bevels not sure how difficult it was for them though. It strikes a good balance where it's at right now.
> 
> There's a bit of a back story to this knife where Shosui made it to exactly 270 after a defective knife (see below) was sent, so perhaps extra care was taken with this one.
> 
> ...



bottom 2 kanji means extra large.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 3, 2017)

inzite said:


> bottom 2 kanji means extra large.



Interesting this was sold as a large (270) and my current 270 only has the bottom of the two (I presume large)


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## foody518 (May 3, 2017)

aboynamedsuita said:


> Interesting this was sold as a large (270) and my current 270 only has the bottom of the two (I presume large)



yup, &#22823;


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## mhpr262 (May 6, 2017)

Damn, you know it's bad when a pro knife sharpener feels the need to make a post like this. I wonder what they changed at the manufacturer - did they hire some wet-behind-the-ears, fresh-from-uni "business administrator" (or "comptroller") who thinks he can use much cheaper processes and materials and produce knives that are "almost" as good? Were the old knife smiths too expensive and got the sack, and they are trying to run the business with apprentices and interns now? That's how it's done nowadays. At least the managers will easily find a new job when the busines goes under, they always do.


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## panda (May 6, 2017)

what a shame. a proper takeda is one of the best knives you can get.


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## fatboylim (May 6, 2017)

Could it be that Takeda is experiencing expansion issues. First his grind went inconsistent and now his heat treatment. Could it be that his assistants/apprentices are creating the inconsistencies hoping that less informed users will not notice the difference. For the informed who returned a poorly grind knife, it was reground to perfection; likely by the master. But with poor heat treatment, there is no way back other than reforging... No chance of being a high end knife after this.


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## Matus (May 6, 2017)

I am working on thinning, refinishing and rehandling of a carbon clad Takeda and while I do not complain about the steel, I find the forging lacking.

This thread is the first time I hear about potential HT issues though.


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## JBroida (May 6, 2017)

yeah... i havent come across HT issues myself. The forging and grinding is rough, but it always has been. The only difference lately is cross-sectional geometry. While its not my cup of tea, maybe is serves his customer base well.


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## rick_english (May 6, 2017)

JBroida said:


> yeah... i havent come across HT issues myself. The forging and grinding is rough, but it always has been. The only difference lately is cross-sectional geometry. While its not my cup of tea, maybe is serves his customer base well.



Well said. I would add that the grinding is, in one respect at least, top-notch. The gap between the cladding and the edge is usually very even. This is not all that easy to do, and I've seen lots of knives from famous makers where the width of that gap is all over the place.


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## jklip13 (May 6, 2017)

a lot of the criticism is totally valid, though they are still the only knife I've used you can pop out of the box and put on natural stones. I've also never seen any HT issues myself. they're really specific knives for a specific market. Love them or hate them, they're certainly unique though not for everyone.


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## labor of love (May 6, 2017)

There seems to be a tremendous amount of variance with takeda: profile, blade height, blade road, blade thickness to name a few. Simply restoring decent geometry(I bought it used and it was thick behind the edge) on my most recent takeda was quite difficult as the cladding felt quite wear resistant. Takedas I've owned and used in the past weren't as bad-never had problems w the core steel.i actually kept notes counting the number of strokes used on atoma for thinning takeda because I was curious how long the process was going to take and I exceeded 8,000 "strokes" pretty easy over 5 thinning sessions. That's not including other stones just to clean up the mess. Maybe I got a lemon, or maybe these knives just aren't easy as others to restore. Either way I definitely appreciate them for what they are and I actually enjoy their uniqueness, but I doubt I'll ever buy another heavily used one as a project anytime soon


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## JBroida (May 6, 2017)

rick_english said:


> Well said. I would add that the grinding is, in one respect at least, top-notch. The gap between the cladding and the edge is usually very even. This is not all that easy to do, and I've seen lots of knives from famous makers where the width of that gap is all over the place.



thats actually just as much an issue with forging as it is with grinding, but the takeda's i've seen are pretty normal in this respect... not particularly better or worse than average


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## Dave Martell (Jun 14, 2017)

Just finished working on another lemon. This one wasn't as bad as the last but damn close in regards to poor sharpen-ability, especially on the deburr/edge refinement. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention how THICK the edge is and how the bevel angles are somewhere around 30 degs per side. I seriously can not imagine how the average knife user could sharpen these things now.

Takedas are now officially on my bad list where the likes of Moritaka and Aritsugu A-types reside. :angry2:


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## malexthekid (Jun 14, 2017)

Dave Martell said:


> Just finished working on another lemon. This one wasn't as bad as the last but damn close in regards to poor sharpen-ability, especially on the deburr/edge refinement. And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention how THICK the edge is and how the bevel angles are somewhere around 30 degs per side. I seriously can not imagine how the average knife user could sharpen these things now.
> 
> Takedas are now officially on my bad list where the likes of Moritaka and Aritsugu A-types reside. :angry2:



What is wrong with the a-types? Is it just a hard steel?


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## panda (Jun 15, 2017)

it just needs a big disclaimer before sale: "NOT for noobs or faint of heart, major project knife only" 
can't speak for the majority, but i found one with a close enough profile and grind and customized it to my liking; after many tweak sessions, it is one of my favorite knives. and that means something because i don't keep ANY knife that i don't deem worthy of staying in the kit. (don't like tool redundancy, so each piece must fill an essential role)


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## malexthekid (Jun 15, 2017)

Thanks for the response. I love mine. Parents got it for me as a birthday gift when they were in Japan.

Haven't tweaked it yet but wouldn't mind thinning it eventually.

But even stock I feel it is a great knife. Just bloody hard


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## wind88 (Jun 15, 2017)

The 240 NAS gyuto I bought recently has the now typical "arrowhead" grind and is more of a santoku than gyuto.

It definitely wedges when cutting harder produce like carrot but works wonderfully on softer items.

Pictures of the knife and choil shot below:

http://imgur.com/a/Zb040


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## labor of love (Jun 15, 2017)

wind88 said:


> The 240 NAS gyuto I bought recently has the now typical "arrowhead" grind and is more of a santoku than gyuto.
> 
> It definitely wedges when cutting harder produce like carrot but works wonderfully on softer items.
> 
> ...



Stay on those bevels man, constant thinning. It sounds like the set up of the geometry suits you-make sure it stays that way. Takedas are a pain if not properly maintained.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 15, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> What is wrong with the a-types? Is it just a hard steel?




Very thick, very hard, & very gummy.


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## pd7077 (Jun 15, 2017)

wind88 said:


> The 240 NAS gyuto I bought recently has the now typical "arrowhead" grind and is more of a santoku than gyuto.
> 
> It definitely wedges when cutting harder produce like carrot but works wonderfully on softer items.
> 
> ...



That's pretty much what the grind on my 170 NAS bunka looked like, and I was experiencing the same type of wedging that you described. Over the past month I have slowly thinned it down (following one of the tutorials here), and it's made a world of difference. I thinned gradually over the course of around five 3hr sessions. It was definitely a PITA, but I'm finally happy with its performance. 

The aesthetics are another story though. One thing that I noticed during the first thinning session is that the left blade face was wavy. There were 3 noticeable dips that you could both see and feel when running your fingers across the face. The right blade face was perfectly flat. I tried to be careful, but there was nothing I could do to prevent the uneven removal of the KU. I wasn't too happy about it at first, but I guess I'm over it now that she's performing the way I want her to.


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## wind88 (Jun 15, 2017)

pd7077 said:


> That's pretty much what the grind on my 170 NAS bunka looked like, and I was experiencing the same type of wedging that you described. Over the past month I have slowly thinned it down (following one of the tutorials here), and it's made a world of difference. I thinned gradually over the course of around five 3hr sessions. It was definitely a PITA, but I'm finally happy with its performance.
> 
> The aesthetics are another story though. One thing that I noticed during the first thinning session is that the left blade face was wavy. There were 3 noticeable dips that you could both see and feel when running your fingers across the face. The right blade face was perfectly flat. I tried to be careful, but there was nothing I could do to prevent the uneven removal of the KU. I wasn't too happy about it at first, but I guess I'm over it now that she's performing the way I want her to.



Good to hear about your experience and success with thinning. I will try to use it more and will eventually go through the same process.


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