# Japanese Santoku



## krohm (Oct 19, 2017)

Hi all,

I'm looking at getting a Santoku japenese knife for everyday cooking. I'm vegan so a lot of vegetable cutting, some root vegetables but hardly any, so may get a second larger knife or a cleaver for pumpkin, perhaps a bread knife, but my daily knife I feel a santoku is the perfect size for me. I prefer smaller blades. 

Ideally I would like a hand made tamahagane santoku but there doesn't appear to be any

I have a contact in Japan who could get one for me but I'm just at beginning the search and starting to learn about them all so thought I would post here first

I'm leading towards the Shigeki Tanaka of the three listed below. Suminagashi is double sided, so is that something I should consider in my selection?

Shigeki Tanaka Blue 2 steel Suminagashi Damascus Hand forged Santoku knife 165mm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shigeki-Ta...964312?hash=item283ff8d698:g:slcAAOSwC11ZwHPT

Tamahagane SAN 3 Layer Stainless Santoku Knife 160mm from JAPAN
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tamahagane...940527&hash=item19f7aca694:g:~okAAOSw0vBUdQQZ

Kataoka Factory TAMAHAGANE 63-layer Damascus steel universal kitchen knife 160mm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1521457546...99&_trkparms=gh1g=I152145754689.N36.S1.R1.TR1

So these are the three different knives that seem to fit the bill.

Wanting some expert advise and whethere I should try and get a hand made Tamahagane Santoku

Appreciate the feedback


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## daveb (Oct 19, 2017)

Welcome to the forum.

Curious as to why Ebay is the retailer of choice. There's 3 very average looking knives there. If you'll fill out the "which knife" questionnaire you'll get some recommendations tailored to your requirements. Typically if there is a problem with an Ebay knife it's on you to return it and the trip back to Japan is discouraging.

The first knife, Tanaka is the only one I know by name (not that model) and Tanaka products are generally well regarded. Note that: "Handle: Magnolia wood D shape handle
*Bolster: water buffalo / colors varie means that the ferrule (the dark part) is made of animal horn. Another vegan once informed me that vegans "don't use animal products". Don't know how you feel about such.. There are knives out there with plastic ferrules. 

The other two, meh. Very doubtful the knives are tamahagane. Very leery of a seller that uses that in the name. Look like Shun wantabes.

Good luck. And if you'll tell us where you're from and what you're looking for we'll try and match you up.

Edit: I may have been doing this too much or too long. Spell check autocorrected "wantabes" to "Watanabe" I had to change it back.


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## milkbaby (Oct 19, 2017)

+1 they're using "Tamahagane" as a brand name, read the descriptions and you'll see neither knife is made from tamahagane steel at all. One is VG5 core steel with soft stainless cladding, the other is unnamed stainless core steel with soft damascus cladding.

Tamahagane steel is made from iron containing sand and is very limited. Knives made of this type of steel will be much more expensive. If you can find a santoku made from it, I bet it will be in the range of US$500-$1000.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Oct 19, 2017)

Consider the Gesshin Uraku santoku from JKI. SKD tool steel core for excellent edge retention, stainless cladding for ease of maintenance, and an included saya for transportation, all for a very good price:

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/santoku/products/gesshin-uraku-165mm-skd-santoku


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## laxdad (Oct 20, 2017)

Vegan knife?

Consider a Watanabe Pro nakiri. The nakiri shape is designed for cutting vegetables. Watanabe's standard handle is burnt chestnut with plastic ferrule. The 180mm size is in stock at Watanabe's website for 22,000 yen. I recall shipping being around 3000 yen. Watanabe also offers nakiris shorter lengths, but I find the 180mm size very comfortable to use.


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## daddy yo yo (Oct 20, 2017)

Please fill out the which knife to buy questionnaire, that helps with recommendations, especially with type of steel, handle, knife care, budget, etc.

I think the recommendation of a *Nakiri *is definitely a good one considering you will only be cutting mainly vegetables. Will you be cutting other vegan food too? The Nakiri knife is regarded as a vegetable knife, not saying you can't cut tofu with it...

Alos, bear in mind that *Santoku *knives are not highly regarded in this forums. Here are mainly gyuto/suji/yanagiba/etc. people. Personally I like Santoku knives, I have quite a few and love to use them especially for their increased height (compared to Gyuto knives of the same size).

You can also consider a *Bunka *knife. While I find that many of these look a bit strange, the Syousin Chiku KU Bunka (Aogami Super with Stainless Cladding) speak to me. They are available in 165 and 180mm.

As for the retailer of your choice, there are some forum vendors such as Japanese Knife Imports, Japanese Natural Stones, Korin, Epicurean Edge, Tosho, and Knives And Stones. You find quite a nice selection of Santokus, Nakiris, and Bunkas there. Also, with knives from Watanabe you can never be wrong, these are just fantastic, and you can ask for handle upgrades if desired.

So, please fill in the questionnaire and then we will help you narrow down your choices.


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## Noodle Soup (Oct 20, 2017)

laxdad said:


> Vegan knife?
> 
> Consider a Watanabe Pro nakiri. The nakiri shape is designed for cutting vegetables. Watanabe's standard handle is burnt chestnut with plastic ferrule. The 180mm size is in stock at Watanabe's website for 22,000 yen. I recall shipping being around 3000 yen. Watanabe also offers nakiris shorter lengths, but I find the 180mm size very comfortable to use.



I second the Watanabe and I've cut my share of tofu with mine for sure.


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## StonedEdge (Oct 20, 2017)

+1 about filling out the questionnaire also let us know where you're located as that will help narrowing down vendors. I know santokus are not well regarded around these parts, but I disagree that a nakiri is a better or more useful knife than a santoku as a general purpose kitchen knife (personally it's gyuto or bust for an all-rounder but that's me)


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## K813zra (Oct 20, 2017)

I second/third going watanabe but it does not have to be a nakiri. His santoku is very nice. The 180mm gyuto would be the most versatile, though, and it has a bit of a santoku(ish) shape to it in that it has a lower tip. It also has a fair amount of height, more than above average for a 180.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Oct 20, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> ... recommendation of a *Nakiri *is definitely a good one....
> 
> ... *Santoku *knives are not highly regarded in this forums. ...



I agree about the low regard for Santokus, but I can't completely understand it. I suppose they got trendy so they're rejected by the "cool kids" *and* they get mass produced in crummy implementations (erh, Rachael Ray, we're looking at you) so there are lots of examples that are deserving of hate. However, as a general form I don't see why they wouldn't be as functional as a Nakiri, while providing a small tip. (I'm thinking e.g. of the difference of the Usuba & Kamagata Usuba nose shapes. If a Nakiri is a double-bevel Usuba, why isn't a Santoku a double-bevel Kamagata Usuba?)

Sorry, I guess I'm getting a little off topic.


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## K813zra (Oct 20, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> I agree about the low regard for Santokus, but I can't completely understand it. I suppose they got trendy so they're rejected by the "cool kids" *and* they get mass produced in crummy implementations (erh, Rachael Ray, we're looking at you) so there are lots of examples that are deserving of hate. However, as a general form I don't see why they wouldn't be as functional as a Nakiri, while providing a small tip. (I'm thinking e.g. of the difference of the Usuba & Kamagata Usuba nose shapes. If a Nakiri is a double-bevel Usuba, why isn't a Santoku a double-bevel Kamagata Usuba?)
> 
> Sorry, I guess I'm getting a little off topic.



I don't know anything about usubas so I can't comment. What I can say is that I too don't understand the disdain for a santoku. I find them to function just fine at most tasks and prefer them to a nakiri. Not the best at trimming meats, for sure, but neither is a nakiri. Nor is a bread knife or many other knives that people still seem to buy. Sure, if I could only have one knife it would be a gyuto but I like a santoku, short petty and medium suji setup.  Works well for me. If I could only have one knife it would be a 180mm gyuto.

Maybe I am weird.


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## TheCaptain (Oct 20, 2017)

I think Santokus get the short shift around here (sorry, pun intended) because a lot of the folks on here are pro's who prefer larger knives to get through a lot of product quickly.

Myself, I'm just a simple home cook who's trying to figure out if a 240mm is too large and can't even think of using 270mm or *gasp* 300mm length blades. 

Personally, 220-230 seems to be my sweet spot. I have a santoku but find I like the longer "leaner" profile of gyutos for non-veggie work.


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## K813zra (Oct 20, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> I think Santokus get the short shift around here (sorry, pun intended) because a lot of the folks on here are pro's who prefer larger knives to get through a lot of product quickly.
> 
> Myself, I'm just a simple home cook who's trying to figure out if a 240mm is too large and can't even think of using 270mm or *gasp* 300mm length blades.
> 
> Personally, 220-230 seems to be my sweet spot. I have a santoku but find I like the longer "leaner" profile of gyutos for non-veggie work.



I sometimes think a 210 is overkill let alone a 240. I like something around 185-205 most of the time. I only go at this one potato at a time...


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## Interapid101 (Oct 20, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Personally, 220-230 seems to be my sweet spot. I have a santoku but find I like the longer "leaner" profile of gyutos for non-veggie work.



Me too. I think 230 handle to tip is perfect.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 20, 2017)

I can still partially recommend these

https://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/anryu.html

Mind that they are rather thin, not stainless, and have an old-school grind with a blade road (huge maintenance advantage. But it seems people are divided about the cutting performance vs modern grinds). All these can be advantages or disadvantages. Shirogami steel. Edge tends to be neither as durable as the Goko nor as short lived as low-end shirogami options.


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## daveb (Oct 20, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> I think Santokus get the short shift around here (sorry, pun intended) because a lot of the folks on here are pro's who prefer larger knives to get through a lot of product quickly.



There is some humor in the Santoku derision, some of that may be based on Rachael Ray having introduced the Santoku to the American market and creating much of the demand for them. And like lawyers they're easy to joke about cause no one will stick up for them. When I'm working I can have a gyuto out and have no need for another cutter. If I have a santoku out I still need a gyuto out. Less is good. At home I've tried a number of santoku and just can't find any love for them.


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## StonedEdge (Oct 20, 2017)

Oddly enough I have a good friend who's made his living the past decade in restaurants and catering using almost exclusively his *gasp* Mac santoku, he wouldn't trade it in for anything else. Use what you're most efficient and comfortable with.


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## inzite (Oct 20, 2017)

short gyuto or more slender santokus in the 180mm range are awesome.


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## krohm (Oct 20, 2017)

The knife ive been using, is 165 ikea pile of garbage. But the length seems right. 
A gyuto is what a lot of people are weighing in on here and suggesting so I really should listen, but it just seems so long.. Am I just a newb and don't know anything?

I've only just starting cooking regularly tbh but ive gotten better with a crap knife and finally think i should get something decent and it seems that one is all i need, maybe a larger knife for pumpkin or i dont ev en know what. but i probably by halfs anyways so yea why would i need this larger knife, even 180mm seems long but obviously isnt considering most are recommending around 210mm minimum.. 

I'll go do the questionnaire


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## krohm (Oct 21, 2017)

inzite said:


> short gyuto or more slender santokus in the 180mm range are awesome.



Here is my questionaire

Australia
Interested in a Santoku
Right handed
Blade length 165mm
Stainless preference
Budget $500
Home environment
Vegetables, general home kitchen use without meats
Replacing a 165mm santoku style ikea knife
I use bambboo boards
My grip is a finger point - Just learnt about pinch grip then from the faq ! 
Not sure what cutting motions I use
I would like a lighter knife, rounded handle and sharper blade, easy to clean.
I would like a hand made tamahagne sanoku, not sure if that's possible given my other requirements
If the knife is required to sharpen regularly that's fine. 
I realise I most likely cannot have all of these things and have it be a handmade tamahagne sanoku

But I'm fairly certain I would like a 165mm, anything higher seems too much. 

Seems like there isn't much,

Here is a knife from ebay, handmade santoku
Shigefusa Kurochi Santoku 165mm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shigefusa-...471247?hash=item28419c8f8f:g:Je8AAOSwxu5ZL-~a

Put the two images up here if ebay ad adisappears:
https://i.imgur.com/yKbUnTt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aJRzZMX.jpg

Something like that, I realise I may be still completely wrong, thoughts appreciated. Obvious newb here


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Oct 21, 2017)

krohm said:


> ... Australia ....



We need to introduce you to James. He has a sub-forum here: Knives and Stones and an: Online Store.

I'll leave someone more familiar with his lines to make specific suggestions.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Oct 21, 2017)

If you are really into a tamahagane santoku, there is one at AFrames: https://www.aframestokyo.com/yoshimitsu-wa-santoku-180mm-tamahagane--watetsu-kn1801.html

That being said, i wouldn't go this route as the Yoshimitsu steel is very reactive. I once got his 210mm gyuto and found it needed some thinning right OOTB. Steel feels like it does better slicing than push cutting. Ended up selling it. In your position i would also choose Watanabe 180mm kurouchi nakiri: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/nakkiri.htm

As for the santoku vs gyuto, one thing i find the santoku lacking is a pointier tip.


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## niwaki-boy (Oct 21, 2017)

Stainless preferred but you want tamahagane? Im not sure you understand what actual tamahagane is. Shig isnt tamahagane either. 
YADave is right, check Knives and Stones. Me if I was you Id get a Tanaka from them.. thats the knife taken care of. Next get a stone setup to get you going on maintaining that knife.


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## ThEoRy (Oct 21, 2017)

Seriously, get something like this around this price point and spend the rest of your budget on some sharpening stones and good wooden cutting board as bamboo is terrible for your knives. A real wood board is softer and easier on your edge than all that glue holding the bamboo grass together. 

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-kagero-180mm-wa-gyuto


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## Nemo (Oct 21, 2017)

Tamagahane is a carbon steel. My understanding is that it's how steel was made in pre industrial times. Apparently it was a fairly pure carbon steel. I have heard some say it was softish by today's standards. I don't know if this is true.
You need to decide- do you want a stainless or a tamagahane knife?
Using a bamboo board will be hard on the knife. PM stainless will cope with this better than almost any carbon steel.


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## daddy yo yo (Oct 21, 2017)

krohm said:


> Here is my questionaire
> 
> Australia
> Interested in a Santoku
> ...


_"Australia
(...) Santoku
Right handed
Blade length 165mm
Stainless preference
Budget $500"_

Have a look at Knives And Stones. So many sweet santokus there... As you're having stainless as a preference, I'd stick to that. Full stainless or at least (carbon core in) stainless cladding. Knives And Stones has some and those are shipped from Australia. This one is quite sweet: http://www.knivesandstones.com/syou...70mm-aogami-super-stainless-clad-by-kurosaki/ 

From the rest of the world, shipping would be quite expensive...

I don't know if you know Mr. Itou knives. He does some fancy handles, knives are available at JCK with very reasonable shipping rates...



niwaki-boy said:


> Stainless preferred but you want tamahagane? Im not sure you understand what actual tamahagane is. Shig isnt tamahagane either.
> YADave is right, check Knives and Stones. Me if I was you Id get a Tanaka from them.. thats the knife taken care of. Next get a stone setup to get you going on maintaining that knife.


True. This is a santoku from Tanaka, although currently out of stock: http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-165mm-santoku-r2-ironwood/



ThEoRy said:


> Seriously, get something like this around this price point and spend the rest of your budget on some sharpening stones and good wooden cutting board as bamboo is terrible for your knives. A real wood board is softer and easier on your edge than all that glue holding the bamboo grass together.
> 
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-kagero-180mm-wa-gyuto


So true - except for he wants a santoku.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 21, 2017)

Given a santoku is a nakiri in essence. Given that a nakiri is essentially just the heel part of a super big gyuto. Given that many tasks just dont need the rocking part or the tip. Given that the forward part, while it adds some weight, also needs additional clearance and space, especially when not all your cutting is in one direction. Given that chopping and push cutting techniques are encouraged as proper form on this forum a lot - and these are more about the heel half of the knife.

What is the issue with santokus then (except that you could say "get a chuka or nakiri instead")?

That said, the Gesshin Santoku shown looks more like a short gyuto to me than a santoku.


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## K813zra (Oct 21, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> Seriously, get something like this around this price point and spend the rest of your budget on some sharpening stones and good wooden cutting board as bamboo is terrible for your knives. A real wood board is softer and easier on your edge than all that glue holding the bamboo grass together.
> 
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-kagero-180mm-wa-gyuto



I am a big 180mm gyuto user. I have 10 at the moment and have had tons of others. As a home user this particular knife type has resonated with me, a lot. It was suggested to me to get into them after having been a santoku user for a long time and I am a convert. However, I can say that they are very different knives, to me. Generally they have little to no flat and are narrow. They work well for G&G but I like a santoku better for chopping, a 180 in particular. 

Just thinking out loud...


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## ThEoRy (Oct 21, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> So true - except for he wants a santoku.



What they said was, "I prefer smaller blades"

I suggested a smaller blade that is more functional than a santoku.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 21, 2017)

@Theory how is a small Gyuto more functional than a Santoku, independent of the cutting style of the user?


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## K813zra (Oct 21, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Theory how is a small Gyuto more functional than a Santoku, independent of the cutting style of the user?



I am not Theory but I find that a 180 gyuto is better at meat fabrication, for example. Or trimming skin but I guess those things go hand and hand. Works well as a large petty or mini suji. I find this cumbersome, at best, with a santoku. I also find a small gyuto better at fleshing a pepper etc. That can be done with a santoku but I find it less fluid.


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## Noodle Soup (Oct 21, 2017)

I've tried a lot of santoku but eventually I settled on a 180 Shig gyuto as my favorite "utility" knife. I consider it too small for most chef knife type jobs but it handles about everything else well.


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## K813zra (Oct 21, 2017)

Noodle Soup said:


> I've tried a lot of santoku but eventually I settled on a 180 Shig gyuto as my favorite "utility" knife. I consider it too small for most chef knife type jobs but it handles about everything else well.



So where is the line between utility knife job and chef knife job? I use a 180 for slicing meat, breaking down birds and all veg prep. However, being a home cook who typically cooks for two I seldom do more than a handful of anything at a time. Maybe in a pro setting, I guess, I have no idea about that sort of thing though.


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## Noodle Soup (Oct 21, 2017)

To each his own. If I'm slicing and dicing large quantities of onions, peppers, tomatoes, cabbage for something, I prefer a 10-inch or 240mm chef/gyuto. Sometimes I jump that up to a 270mm. And I only cook for two too. 180mm is just too short to conveniently slice some things.


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## K813zra (Oct 21, 2017)

Noodle Soup said:


> To each his own. If I'm slicing and dicing large quantities of onions, peppers, tomatoes, cabbage for something, I prefer a 10-inch or 240mm chef/gyuto. Sometimes I jump that up to a 270mm. And I only cook for two too. 180mm is just too short to conveniently slice some things.



I totally get it but I might cut up half a dozen potatoes and a few carrots for the average meal. I got by for many, many years with a 150mm petty. :O


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## Benuser (Oct 21, 2017)

I've used for years a 190mm santoku at home -- nothing wrong with that, provided it has some upsweep to the tip. Very flat ones land into the board and end with damaged tips -- on my stones, I'm afraid. A good 180mm gyuto is the Masahiro Virgin Carbon: not too narrow, not a large petty.


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## daddy yo yo (Oct 22, 2017)

I believe everyone has his own preferences and there are different ways of finding out, exploring and getting "there". I started my knife nerdism with a 165mm santoku which I still have. It was a gift from my cousin. This remains my beater knife, I use it on cheap plastic boards, I even do walking and I cut hard stuff with it too. It is not a knife I would particularly recommend to anyone but it has taken everything I have thrown at it so far.

I moved on to gyutos then, a 210 first, a 240, even 270. I found out that 270 is too much for me for a gyuto. But I was suprised how much I enjoy 240 gyutos. But hey, I use whatever I am in the mood for: one day it is a 165 santoku, the next it is a 250 gyuto, then a 190 santoku or a 210 gyuto. Most of the times I grab a 240mm gyuto.

Anyway, what I recommend to the OP is try as many knives as you can to find out what is your favourite style, length and steel. You don't always have to go right to (or even over) the top of your budget. There are plenty of sweet knives out there, and many of them are in the "affordable" price range. Dive into the adventure of finding out what is your preference!

FWIW, I have recently used a 240 stainless Gesshin Ginga Western gyuto for the first time. And while I prefer Japanese handles it felt just perfect. And, boy, what a cutter that knife is! Have a look at the Gesshin Ginga stainless knives at JKI: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gesshin-ginga/stainless-steel


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## FoRdLaz (Oct 22, 2017)

To the OP: if you are _really_ interested in getting a genuine tamahagane santoku then this is the one for you:

https://aframestokyo.com/yoshimitsu-wa-santoku-180mm-tamahagane--watetsu-kn1801.html


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 22, 2017)

@FoRdLaz now that is a beauty!


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## krohm (Oct 22, 2017)

While that handmade tamahagne is what I ideally want. I'm thinking for my first knife I maybe shouldn't get a non stainless handmade knife

So I'm looking now at these, based on the recommendations above:

http://www.knivesandstones.com/syou...70mm-aogami-super-stainless-clad-by-kurosaki/

http://www.knivesandstones.com/takeda-funayuki-170mm-nas-stainless-aogami-super/

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-kagero-180mm-wa-gyuto

Leaning towards the syousin chiku santoku...

Any others I should be thinking about?


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## ThEoRy (Oct 22, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Theory how is a small Gyuto more functional than a Santoku, independent of the cutting style of the user?



If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand. Instead I'll just tell you that I have 4 santokus, I never bring them to work and I haven't used them in years.


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## Jkts (Oct 22, 2017)

A gyuto would be more of an all purpose knife- a professional chef gets really skilled at using it for everything-, slicing, chopping, mincing, whatever. 

The santoku is like a shortened gyuto- it has a curve to the edge but less length to work with. While its fine for small tasks and an easy knife to grab, it wouldnt be the knife a chef would normally grab for a large quantity of ingredients. 

The op wants to pick up a fine santoku. Thats a starting point. I say buy a knife youll be happy with- over the years therell be many more to try...


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## Nemo (Oct 23, 2017)

Aogami super is not a stainless steel. Both of the aogami super knves that you listed have a stainless cladding so only the core steel is prone to rust.

The gyuto version of the Syousin Chiku is a very sweet knife and I assume that the santoku would be as well. But as I mentioned, it isn't fully stainless.

Did you look at the Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi on K&S? Fully stainless PM steel. Not difficult to sharpen. Very long edge retention. Reasonable fit & finish. It has a subtle damascus pattern which I find quite attractive. It's brilliant value. Do be aware that it is quite a tall blade though.


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## krohm (Oct 23, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Aogami super is not a stainless steel. Both of the aogami super knves that you listed have a stainless cladding



damn

So can anyone recommend some santoku's that are stainless?

It seems like I'm fighting against what everyone is recommending, which is to get a gyuto.. 

Perhaps rather than go with what I think would be better, I should just get what everyone is actually recommending.

Perhaps a gyuto that is short, like the third one I listed, https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-kagero-180mm-wa-gyuto

So I'm going down the road that everyone is recommending, but not getting a long blade like I would prefer

Like a 180mm gyuto should be a better option?

New post?! : )


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## krohm (Oct 23, 2017)

It seems gyuto knives start at 210mm usually

http://www.knivesandstones.com/sukenari-sg2-r2-k-tip-gyuto-210mm-sanmai/


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## Jkts (Oct 23, 2017)

I do think you should buy what you want. Most of us have many different types of knives, and more than one version of each. For the money you are putting in, take your time and pick a great knife that will give you pleasure for years. 

If you think about basic knives a vegan can use...

Gyuto as an all purpose knife
Nakiri as a slicer
Petty for many fine tasks
Vegetable cleaver for fine chopping
Santoku as a utility knife
Sujihiki for a long slicer

Then there are the single bevel counterparts to these knives which cut very different. 

The santoku would probably be one of the later knives I would get. Its a kind of utility knife. Having said that there are some very good ones out there.

As long as you get a high quality knife, youll be pleased with it. Theyll all be incredibly sharp, even the santoku.

For you as a vegan, I would start with a good nakiri. One of the joys of using Japanese knives is trying something different than you have in the past. I cook vegetarian about 80% of the time and mainly use a nakiri.


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## OliverNuther (Oct 23, 2017)

If you're currently using a santoku and like it then get another one. I know everyone is telling you gyuto are more versatile (and they are) but you have to be happy with your purchase not us so go with what you want. 

Have a look at James' offerings at Knives and Stones. Local vendor, great knives, great service. Forget the tamahagane. If you want a stainless knife, consider something like this 

http://www.knivesandstones.com/tojiro-powdered-high-speed-steel-santoku-170mm-f-517/

I've got this knife in a 210 gyuto. Good entry level knife. Sharpens well, holds an edge and cheap enough that there is plenty of room left in your budget for a better cutting board and some water stones. James can fix you up with them too.


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## inzite (Oct 23, 2017)

imo 180mm is the sweet spot regardless of santoku or gyuto. this was my first jp knive and it's also my most used before i sent it in for a spa.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Oct 23, 2017)

Jkts said:


> ...
> Nakiri as a slicer
> ...
> Santoku as a utility knife
> ...



I understand a Nakiri would be the traditional choice for veggie prep. What I haven't managed to understand is why a (good!) santoku isn't a Nakiri with a slightly more general purpose tip shape.

OP, certainly a Gyuto is more general purpose than either. More pointed tip can be used for more delicate tasks, extra length can handle more volume and makes it a more adequate slicer substitute, and (often) it has more belly which allows different cutting strokes. However, as Gyuto's get shorter they either get smaller, and start looking like pettys to me, or get stubbier, and start looking like Santokus to me. Maybe thinking about how you cut and looking at the profile pictures is a better strategy than worrying about the name chosen by the maker / vendor.

Good luck!


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## Jkts (Oct 23, 2017)

Since Im home sick , I though Id show a comparison. Below is a 165 santoku, 165 nakiri, 180 gyuto, and 150 petty, all watanabes. 

The nakiri has a flatter cutting edge which changes the technique used in slicing. With a nakiri, the cut ends with the edge fairly even with the board. With the other knives, the edge hits the board at one point and rolls or slices through the object as needed. 

I had a friend helping with cooking the other day and had to make some adjustments to his cutting technique to use a nakiri because he was used to holding a chefs knife at more of an angle as it cut through.


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## FoRdLaz (Oct 23, 2017)

Thats a really great visual comparison


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## OneStaple (Oct 23, 2017)

I'm no expert, but to go along with what Jkts said, my understanding is that the lack of a tip on a nakiri allows you to have a much flatter profile without the fear of potentially digging the tip in while cutting (and potentially damaging it). That means a more up/down motion without needing to roll through the cut. And probably easier to avoid accordion cuts?

While it hasn't really been mentioned in this thread, I'm a fan of a bunka over a santoku. Very similar concepts from my limited understanding, but the bunka gives you a bit more of a sharper and more pronounced tip, probably falling between a santoku and a short gyuto. And looks way cooler to me. I really like my Shibata Kotetsu 180mm bunka.

Experts, feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong!

Tyler


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 23, 2017)

Aogami in a stainless cladding is actually a great choice - it is usually the cladding that rusts, not the hardened edge portion...


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Oct 23, 2017)

FoRdLaz said:


> Thats a really great visual comparison



+1. Thanks Jkts!

I think this does illustrate one source of my confusion. That Watanabes Santoku's belly makes it look like a stubby Gyuto to me. I haven't seen such well done photos, but I think many Santokus have a much flatter belly. I guess the lesson should be you need to look at specific details and (mostly) ignore the labels.



OneStaple said:


> ... While it hasn't really been mentioned in this thread, I'm a fan of a bunka over a santoku. Very similar concepts from my limited understanding, but the bunka gives you a bit more of a sharper and more pronounced tip, probably falling between a santoku and a short gyuto. And looks way cooler to me. I really like my Shibata Kotetsu 180mm bunka.
> 
> Experts, feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong!
> 
> Tyler



OK, yet another point of confusion for me. When I look up a definition of "Bunka", I find it's an alternate name for a Santoku. When I look at them, I'd categorize them as "K-tip" Santokus (in general, I'm sure there are exceptions.) And while I'm complaining about related things that confuse me, I'll mention "Funayuki". I haven't found a definition, but the examples I've seen look generally look like Santokus to me too.

Someone posted, if you speak Japanese, knife terms are really simple and obvious. Without that skill I find them exotic and mysterious and often confusing and (seemingly) inconsistent.


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## Jkts (Oct 23, 2017)

More of a horizontal slicing cut than an up/down cut. The sharpness of the nakiri allows it to cut through with light pressure...

Its hard for me to show this with my unsteady hands and poor lighting...




180 nakiri




210 gyuto

Its very subtle but the bevel angle on a nakiri is flatter than a gyuto. You might notice a slight bulge on the gyuto, partly because it is thicker steel.

When I sharpen a nakiri, the face is flat or almost flat to the stone. When I sharpen a gyuto, the face has a slightly elevated angle.

The impact of cutting is a much sharper, smoother cut for the nakiri. 

Im curious if the experienced sharpeners in this group would confirm this.


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## Jkts (Oct 23, 2017)

Another Dave- I think there is a lot of variation within types. For instance, I like bunkas with flatter edges.


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## Paraffin (Oct 23, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> I understand a Nakiri would be the traditional choice for veggie prep. What I haven't managed to understand is why a (good!) santoku isn't a Nakiri with a slightly more general purpose tip shape.



All other things being equal, like handle length/weight, blade thickness, and comparing 180mm santoku to a 180mm nakiri, the nakiri has more metal mass at the very end of the blade. So the balance should be a little more blade-heavy, allowing the weight of the blade to do more of the work when slicing. 

Of course that would be different with a 165mm nakiri with less length and height, but it's my subjective impression when comparing my 180mm Kurosaki nakiri to an old Wusthof santoku and a Shun Premiere santoku here at the house. The 180mm nakiri feels like there is a little more "authority" from the blade weight when slicing, if that makes sense. When I use the santokus, or a 210mm lightweight "laser" gyuto, it feels more like my hand is doing all the work.

I'm talking about something very subtle here, not a night-and-day difference, because this nakiri has a thin blade and isn't really THAT heavy. And the OP might still prefer a santoku for pointy-tip work.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 23, 2017)

krohm said:


> damn
> 
> So can anyone recommend some santoku's that are stainless?
> 
> ...



Whenever Santoku's get mentioned here the thread has legs because of small gyuto vs santoku debate.

In a Pro kitchen never used a santoku my smallest gyuto was a 240mm. At home like smaller knives cooking for two. My better half uses a Takamura R2 Santoku. Knife I use the most is a 180mm K tip Kochi stainless clad Santoku from JKI. You have to take opinions here with a grain of salt including mine. Personally for a small space I'll take the Kochi over a small gyuto. It is tall which is good for push cuts & chopping. Slicing, peeling & the K-tip is functional for all sorts of things. It is stainless clad carbon core.

On the first page of this long thread the Gesshin Uraku SKD Santoku was mentioned. It is a nice blade comes with a wooden saya, quality stainless steel, octagon wa handle, & good geometry thin behind the edge. Both knives you can find at JKI.


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## Nemo (Oct 23, 2017)

krohm said:


> damn
> 
> So can anyone recommend some santoku's that are stainless?
> 
> ...



I did recommend a stainless santoku to look at: http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-suminagashi-r2-damascus-santoku-170mm-by-shiro-kamo/

If you are prepared to look at shorter gyutos (which I would recommend), this ( http://www.knivesandstones.com/shinko-kurokumo-r2-damascus-gyuto-210mm-by-shiro-kamo/ ) is a similar blade with a nicer handle, rounded spine & choil and a more prominent damascus pattern. Thr original Syousin Suminagashi is still pretty nice though.

Then Gesshin Kagero is made of SRS15, which is also stainless. While I can't comment on the Kagero, I have this steel in Akifusas, where behaves in many ways similar to R2, not too hard to sharpen with very long edge retention (maybe a bit longer than R2). Coming from JKI, it's likely to be a very good knife. Note that delivery to Aus from USA is often not cheap.


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## Mucho Bocho (Oct 23, 2017)

Jkts said:


> More of a horizontal slicing cut than an up/down cut. The sharpness of the nakiri allows it to cut through with light pressure...
> 
> Its hard for me to show this with my unsteady hands and poor lighting...
> 
> ...



Some very insightful advice give here.


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## Jkts (Oct 23, 2017)

A couple years ago, someone here made the astute observation that when you take away the curved tip, the flatter working edge of the a 210 gyuto would be similar to a 180 Nakiri. That might be where a santoku loses some ground since it has a similar tip and shorter overall length.


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## Jkts (Oct 23, 2017)

This helps me understand knife geometry a little better myself. I think about how the length, curve, and thickness impact the use of a knife.

Below are for comparisons using common lengths- 165 nakiri, 165 santoku, 210 gyuto, 240 gyuto.





210 gyuto and 165 santoku




165 nakiri and 165 santoku




210 gyuto and 165 nakiri




240 gyuto and 165 nakiri


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## daddy yo yo (Oct 24, 2017)

OP, have you heard of Carter Cutlery?

His Muteki knives are made by apprentices and therefor affordable. Here is one in White #1 in stainless clad: 
https://www.cartercutlery.com/6-57-muteki-original-1394-wabocho-by-jamison/

But there are also some other stainless clad knives, some set ones:
https://www.cartercutlery.com/stainless-fukugo-zai/?sort=newest&page=1


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## krohm (Oct 25, 2017)

I have not heard of Carter Cutlery. I want a japanese knife : ) I still kind of want a handmade tamahagane blade, but given they are not stainless steel, I realise it is a silly knife to get as my first good kitchen knife

So it now seems I want a stainless, non damascus, with no animal products in the handle, santoku or short gyuto 160mm - 180mm

There just doesn't seem to be many on the two sites people have suggested, knivesandstones.com, japaneseknifeimports.com

This is one of the only ones that fits the bill,
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/santoku/products/gesshin-uraku-165mm-skd-santoku

Are there are any other sites people frequent that might be good to look at..

I'm going to take the advise of a few people and get the blade length that I wanted, have used in the past.. I can always go down the road of a gyuto in the future.. Which I'm sure I'll do. My girlfriend will use the knife also and she is very small and wouldn't want to use a 210mm + gyuto

So any other sites I should be looking at?

Any other knives given the above specs.. Thoughts and feedback on this really appreciated

Feel like I've gotten a lot of info to go on in this nice long thread : )


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## Noodle Soup (Oct 25, 2017)

No animal products? Oh, right the horn ferrule ring on some knives. Is that really a big deal? Horn realty isn't an essential part of a cow. But most of mine are probably plastic as it was never that important to me.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 25, 2017)

I think Robin Dalman once answered my question about a no-animal-products knife as perfectly possible for him to do. Should still be in the forum archives.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 25, 2017)

@Jkts can such comparisons be sensibly made unless comparing knives from the same maker or even the same series? There will certainly be nakiris that are far thicker than the thinnest gyutos


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## Jkts (Oct 25, 2017)

The comparisons are more to help the op to understand the general differences in function and use between santokus, gyutos, and nakiris. 

The point between nakiris and gyutos is how the edge is shaped regardless of thickness. Its a very different bevel.

Although perhaps there are gyutos that are sharpened flat to the stone.


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## laxdad (Oct 25, 2017)

krohm said:


> I have not heard of Carter Cutlery. I want a japanese knife : ) I still kind of want a handmade tamahagane blade, but given they are not stainless steel, I realise it is a silly knife to get as my first good kitchen knife
> 
> So it now seems I want a stainless, non damascus, with no animal products in the handle, santoku or short gyuto 160mm - 180mm



By Japanese knife, do you mean a knife with a Japanese style (wa) handle, or any knife made by a Japanese bladesmith? There are many Japanese made knives with western style handles. These handles are typically wood or plastic or pakkawood (composite wood/plastic), so vegan-friendly. If you want a Japanese wa handle, then look for a knife with a plastic/wood/pakkawood ferrule. They are around, but not as common as buffalo horn. By the way, I believe the knife you linked has a buffalo horn ferrule.

Large online knife stores include Japanese Knife Imports (US), Knives and Stones (Australia), Japanese Chefs Knife (Japan), Epicurean Edge (US), Korin (US and France), Japanese Natural Stones (Denmark), Cleancut (Sweden), BluewayJapan (Japan via EBay). I've used most of these retailers with good success. There are many more you can find with a bit of Googling.

There is an online retailer called MetalMaster that usually carries Tanaka knives with plastic ferrules. I took a quick look at his site, but he seems to be mostly sold out at the present. I've not used MetalMaster. He has a reputation of being reliable, but with slow shipping and poor communication.


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## Marek07 (Oct 25, 2017)

@keithsaltydog mentioned the Takamura R2 santoku. My wife also uses it and loves it. I did too but I now reach for other knives. Down side - it is prone to micro chips depending on your board work. Not a real problem if you sharpen and it will be much sturdier with a micro-bevel. I gifted a Tojiro DP santoku to my sister and she loves it. Or for a few dollars more, go for their HSPS version though I have no experience of it but most folk think they are superior. Both of these suit most of your stated requirements but are just tad longer - 170mm. 

Also mentioned earlier by Rick was the Gesshin Uraku. Haven't used it but I have the Uraku nakiri which is a great performer and excellent value. Not sure of the ferrule material - shoot Jon an email to be sure.

Edit: BTW, if you're in Melbourne, PM me. You could always try out a couple of options ahead of purchase.


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## Paraffin (Oct 25, 2017)

There are plenty of Japanese handle knives out there without horn ferrules. My two most recent purchases haven't had them:

Ikeda AS 210mm gyuto -- Rosewood handle/Black Pakkawood ferrule
Kurosaki R2 180mm nakiri -- Rosewood handle/some kind of blonde wood ferrule

Not necessarily recommending these specific knives for the OP (although I like both!), just pointing out that it's not that hard to find knives with wood as both handle and ferrule material (if we include wood/resin "pakkawood") among the various makers. I didn't look for non-animal handles for those knives, I'm just a sucker for a nice-looking, dark wood wa handle.


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## daveb (Oct 25, 2017)

I've been away from this one for awhile. Has anyone mentioned Watanabe? He'll do a stainless clad carbon knife up to 180mm with plastic ferrule, ho handle. Santoku is probably available with a little wait time.

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/santoku.htm


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## krohm (Oct 25, 2017)

daveb, they look good !

Wonder if they would do a santoku without the horn but with the burnt chestnut handle..


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## Marek07 (Oct 25, 2017)

krohm said:


> daveb, they look good !
> 
> Wonder if they would do a santoku without the horn but with the burnt chestnut handle..


Watanabe's basic knives usually have a burnt chestnut handle with a plastic ferrule. Great knives. Be aware that the core steel is not stainless.


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## Noodle Soup (Oct 25, 2017)

I would just ask him. He is a very friendly guy. I've met him several times at various shows.


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## Jkts (Oct 26, 2017)

The santoku I pictured earlier is a recent acquisition from Watanabe. I was impressed by its sharpness. He has a few other handles available besides ho wood. Im certain you can get chestnut and a plastic ferrule. He usually responds to emails within 24 hours.


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## krohm (Oct 26, 2017)

Marek07 said:


> Great knives. Be aware that the core steel is not stainless.



damn it. I thought they were stainless

back to square one, I want a stainless for my first good knife

I'll check out a bunch of those websites listed recently


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## daveb (Oct 26, 2017)

A carbon clad w stainless is to me the best of both worlds. I don't treat them much differently than all stainless and after the patina sets they are for all practical purposes the same.


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## Jkts (Oct 26, 2017)

I agree with daveb- a stainless clad gives you a carbon steel core for that is easier to sharpen and can take a better edge than stainless. The outer stainless clad will give more protection on the face. 

For the money you are spending, buy a top tier knife. When I started buying Japanese knives 15 years ago I had ideas of what I wanted- stainless, western handles. I was very happy with these. Then I took the plunge. Now I buy only carbon steel and wa handles. Knife buying evolves with understanding and use. 

It might be good to try some knives and feel what the difference is.


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## Lucasboy31 (Oct 27, 2017)

I know the chef of a local restaurant where I live also loves santoku knives, and he also owns other small restaurants. He told me that he gets his knives from this site:

https://www.mychefknives.co.uk/748-santoku-knives

However, this is a UK site, so I dont know how it would work out for the delivery, but perhaps you could have a quick look and see if you can ask for the international delivery options

Hope that helps, cheers!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 31, 2017)

And btw, I am glad I am not the only one here who is vegetarian and not 100% comfortable with buffalo horn, though I don't consider it a complete no-go (but not a desirable feature either).


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## krohm (Nov 13, 2017)

Jkts said:


> I agree with daveb- a stainless clad gives you a carbon steel core for that is easier to sharpen and can take a better edge than stainless. The outer stainless clad will give more protection on the face.
> For the money you are spending, buy a top tier knife.



The more I think about it the more I think I should just dive into a carbon streel knife with stainless clad. 

So I just clean it by hand, can I wash it by hand, is there special cleaning instructions?

I do like, http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/santoku.htm, but would want the burnt chestnut handle with plastic hilt. Perhaps I should message him?


These too

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/standard/kaibou.htm

Having said that, the more I use my crap knife, I can see I should be getting a longer blade. I can see that is the way to go for use.

Perhaps I need to start a new thread, for a 210mm gyuto. 

So I can get a hand made stainless clad santoku, or gyoto up to 210mm.

I looked at japanesechefsknife.com, epicedge.com, korin.com, japanesenaturalstones.com, and blueway japan on ebay, as people have suggested

The other knife that grabbed my eye is, http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=93729

And this, http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/

I actually feel like I'm further away from a decision then before

I will just learn to treat the knife properly, and be able to get a non stainless knife. If that is the case, and up to 210mm gyuto,

After a non damascus, with dark handle, any other suggestions/sites I should be looking at

Thank you for all your input

I'm pretty sure I should get a carbon steel core with stainless clad knife, but what are the other options, non stainless knives, something like either of these:
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/mazaki-kasumi-gyuto-180mm/
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/mazaki-kasumi-gyuto-210mm/

Feedback appreciated ! 

Feel like I'm getting somewhere, even though seemingly not moving any closer to a decision


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## HRC_64 (Nov 13, 2017)

This thread is getting pretty long, but my view is that you shouldn't avoid your own instinct.
If you want to use/have a 180mm knife, I would not try to force a 210 or a 240 into that context.

Personally, I like 180 size and find it very utilitarian.

Also, it perfectly complements the 240mm gyuto


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## K813zra (Nov 13, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> This thread is getting pretty long, but my view is that you shouldn't avoid your own instinct.
> If you want to use/have a 180mm knife, I would not try to force a 210 or a 240 into that context.
> 
> Personally, I like 180 size and find it very utilitarian.
> ...



Valid points. I don't much use a santoku these days, though I have a few I keep around, but I do find a 180mm gyuto to compliment a 240 very well. Almost like having a large petty.


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## daveb (Nov 13, 2017)

You've seen a lot of recommendations, some you probably liked and others not so much.

Something new to consider is that every year EE has a black friday sale that I think coincides with all the other retail madness. A smart fella might downselect to a couple knives they like and then monitor the sale. I think they change offerings every hour and reductions are sometimes substantial. (I've not yet been a smart fella)


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## Jkts (Nov 13, 2017)

Watanabe's kaibou is basically a heavy duty gyuto, not made to be a slicer. Go for the santoku , Im sure he can do chestnut with a plastic ferrule. You could ask for extra thin as an upgrade if you prefer.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 14, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I do find a 180mm gyuto to compliment a 240 very well. Almost like having a large petty.



+1


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## daddy yo yo (Nov 14, 2017)

Go with the Watanabe santoku. Watanabe has never disappointed.

As for a gyuto in 210, the Itinomonn is highly recommended. So are Gengetsu gyutos...

Oh, and still, you can get good carbon in stainless clad from Carter... Just saying!


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## Interapid101 (Nov 18, 2017)

daveb said:


> You've seen a lot of recommendations, some you probably liked and others not so much.
> 
> Something new to consider is that every year EE has a black friday sale that I think coincides with all the other retail madness. A smart fella might downselect to a couple knives they like and then monitor the sale. I think they change offerings every hour and reductions are sometimes substantial. (I've not yet been a smart fella)



What is EE?


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## dwalker (Nov 18, 2017)

Interapid101 said:


> What is EE?


Epicedge.com


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## Interapid101 (Nov 18, 2017)

Thanks!


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## krohm (Dec 19, 2017)

Jkts said:


> Watanabe's kaibou is basically a heavy duty gyuto, not made to be a slicer. Go for the santoku , Im sure he can do chestnut with a plastic ferrule. You could ask for extra thin as an upgrade if you prefer.



Awesome advise regarding asking for the blade to be extra thin for the knife to be used as a slicer. 

I asked specifically if that could be done, for more expense if required, but asked for his recommendation regarding this.

I mentioned it's my first good knife and that I would be mainly cutting vegetables.

A brief cut down version of what I've garnered from this thread.

I'm ready to purchase. 

I asked for the chestnut oval handle, but might just get no hilt, I did ask if there were any non-animal non plastic hilt options.

Exciting! 

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Will be sure to take some pictures, and would love to learn more about cutting better than I do, and sounds like, and I've even noticed with my bad knife, that I need to leave the bamboo board behind with a blade like this. Will get some recommendations perhaps for sharpening in the other sections of the board

Look forward to taking my cooking to the next level! It really has immersed me into cooking more getting better and better with a knife. Can't wait to leap forward with this


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## KeithA (Dec 19, 2017)

krohm said:


> damn it. I thought they were stainless
> 
> back to square one, I want a stainless for my first good knife
> 
> I'll check out a bunch of those websites listed recently



Last Christmas, my wife wanted a santoku. Now understand, she is NOT a knife person. She is afraid of my Japanese knives and I wanted her to be comfortable. I went through about 15 or so with her, going over everything from blade geometry to type of steel. She definitely didn't choose what I would have, but that's what's great about it. She chose what she wanted. That was a Misono UX 10 from Korin. It is stainless. It is light. And it is reasonably sharp. Her main thing was something to use on fruits and veggies. She requested the free initial sharpening from Korin and is happy with her choice.

The only thing I'd point out, if it hasn't already, is that when referring to sharpening Japanese knives round these parts people are usually referring to the skilled use of stones and not the pull through sharpeners or even Chef's Choice.


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2017)

A good and practical knife for a lot of people -- and one of the very few truly elegant santokus.


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## StonedEdge (Dec 19, 2017)

Just be sure to get some water stones or know a proficient sharpener because Watanabe brings his heat treats to a very high hardness


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## Jkts (Dec 19, 2017)

krohm said:


> Awesome advise regarding asking for the blade to be extra thin for the knife to be used as a slicer.
> 
> I asked specifically if that could be done, for more expense if required, but asked for his recommendation regarding this.
> 
> ...





Thats fantastic- I picked up a regular pro series santoku from watanabe which is wicked sharp. I look forward to hearing how sharp your thin version will be.

As for a board, I would suggest getting a keyaki board, one of the 3/4-1 thicker boards. Its softer on the edge, light and easy to grab.


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## Jkts (Dec 19, 2017)

My mistake, not keyaki but a hinoki board- look up umezawa cutting board as a good example- the 1/2  boards are too thin.


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