# Fighters



## rami_m (Jun 19, 2014)

I emailed a knife maker today asking about kitchen knives but he responded that he prefers fighters over kitchen and utility knives which got me wondering what do people use them for? They can't all be martial artists and it sounds expensive to put it on a shelf somewhere.


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## EdipisReks (Jun 19, 2014)

They get put on a shelf somewhere.


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## Dardeau (Jun 19, 2014)

I imagine that's why many get made, they don't have to work, just to look good.


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## Lizzardborn (Jun 20, 2014)

The boss of ESEE (disclaimer I own ESEE-6 for the occasional trip outside of civilization) on how knives are designed and sold.



> In all honesty, the knife industry is about 99 percent ********. We sell knives every day to people who will never use them. Knife buying is more of a want than a need.
> 
> I grew up on a farm carrying a three-bladed "Old timer" pocketknife. It did everything I needed and got used daily. All these new weird shapes and designs that keep coming out are made just to have something new and "tacticool." Most companies refuse to speak the truth and just say, "the reason we designed this is because some mall ninja would think it's cool and spend money on it."



http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/how-survival-knives-are-designed-and-manufactured-1577108102

It is even worse with combat knives. A smith cannot get away with crappy kitchen knife because it will be used.


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## Matus (Jun 20, 2014)

Still - should I ever need a machete or similar heavy duty knife I would probably get one from Burt Foster. He seems to know what he is doing (he also does knives for active army personal). I have seen he also ventured to kitchen knives on occasion, though I do not know how well those knife work in kitchen.

But indeed - most bowies and even more 'tactical' knives are just used to be tested on few sticks and then discussed to death on knife fora. There are many many more outdoor/tactical knife makers than kitchen knife makers for the reason already mentioned - the kitchen knives actually have to perform.


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## Noodle Soup (Jun 20, 2014)

The best thing about fighters for a custom maker is that they will probably never be used for much. No one will ever get around to complaining about actual performance in the field and the fact they cut very poorly.


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## Burl Source (Jun 20, 2014)

All Right, some of you guys are acting like knife bigots.
It is easy to look at the flea market knives from Pakistan that are cheap wall hangers, and then lump all the fighters into that category.
But there is a niche of knife makers who make knives that would put most of the customs you have seen to shame.
and....fighters do get carried and used, just not in the kitchen.


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## rami_m (Jun 20, 2014)

Burl Source said:


> ....fighters do get carried and used, just not in the kitchen.



Where and by whom? In Australia we can't even carry them so was wondering what's the rest of the world experience?


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## Matus (Jun 20, 2014)

Mark you are right - there are really professional tactical knives makers. But the matter of fact is that while there are many more makers that make (whether usable or not) tactical knives than kitchen knives, there are many more kitchen knives that actually see regular use, than there are fighter knives (that is a good thing!).

(am I the only one who finds that sentence above awful to read?)


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## Timthebeaver (Jun 20, 2014)

As above, if you got caught with a "fighter" on your person here in the UK you may be hit with a custodial sentence.


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## boomchakabowwow (Jun 20, 2014)

calling them "fighters" is the stupid part. i have a few knives i rotate on hunting trips. i couldnt fight my way out of a paper bag without copious supply of blood clotters and bandages.

fun thread by the way. 

but there are some fantastic custom knives out there. i bought my brother a decent "tactical" knife because he is on a SWAT team. he uses the knife to cut thru screen doors..and he tried to pry a stuck smoke bomb thing out of the chamber and snapped off the tip..then he lost it. haha..now he carries a regular folding knife and it does the exact same thing.

i love what the ESEE guys says. i want the ESEE 4 to gut deer and stuff with. nice tool.


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## panda (Jun 20, 2014)

what do most people use non kitchen knives for? opening cardboard boxes. nuff said.


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## Burl Source (Jun 20, 2014)

Australia and the UK are pretty strict with their knife laws. New York as well.
I wear a knife on my belt when going to the grocery store. Technically a fighter but the blade is only about 6 inches.
Helps to deter some of the more aggressive pan handlers. But then we don't have any local police here. 
It is kind of like carrying a gun. Something you hope you will never need to use.
I will try to take some photos in the near future.


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## Lizzardborn (Jun 20, 2014)

It is not about being a bigot - I am sure a lot of the knives that are made are really well made. And that the (para)military guys and girls that use them can provide valuable feedback and exact requests.

What I am talking is something like that -I really cannot imagine a situation in which this knife will perform better any classical design. If someone that is specialist in CQC I will be glad to hear the opinions.







http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/27TLTH/RECON_1_TANTO_POINT_50_50_EDGE.aspx


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## LKH9 (Jun 20, 2014)

Burl Source said:


> Australia and the UK are pretty strict with their knife laws. New York as well.
> I wear a knife on my belt when going to the grocery store. Technically a fighter but the blade is only about 6 inches.
> Helps to deter some of the more aggressive pan handlers. But then we don't have any local police here.
> It is kind of like carrying a gun. Something you hope you will never need to use.
> I will try to take some photos in the near future.



According to a WW2 veteran being discussed in another knife forum, a 6 inch knife is more than enough to stab and kill someone from any angle. Longer or shorter than 6 inches is not good. 6 inches is the optimum length for a combat knife, according to his experience in killing sentries.

So, you seem to have the perfect combat knife already.:knife:


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## LKH9 (Jun 20, 2014)

See this, a Gyuto/french chef knife for everything.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/695016-Kitchen-Knife-Survival/page2


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## Burl Source (Jun 20, 2014)

Lizard,
That is not a fighter. That would be considered a tactical folder.
A folder like you showed is a special use tactical knife. 
Maybe instead of saying bigot I should have said ignorant. Not meant in a derogatory way but uneducated in a certain subject. 

A fighter these days is not meant so much to be a tool, as it is a weapon. 
Originally the bowie knife (a fighter) needed to be a multi use knife to be used to cut wood, butcher game and also be used as a weapon.

Australia does have some good knife makers who specialize in fighters.
Will Morrison from Melbourne is a good example.
This is one of his most recent knives, a bowie with a 10 inch blade.


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## rami_m (Jun 20, 2014)

That looks nice. And I am likely to get one at some point. But afraid only as a display piece. These are too good to use as just that. So trying to work out what I might use them for.


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## Burl Source (Jun 20, 2014)

This guy makes fighters sometimes. 




It's an old photo but some of the old timers here might recognize him.


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## Anton (Jun 20, 2014)

Mr. Burke


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## jared08 (Jun 20, 2014)

I've actually owned a knife from the recon series many years ago. Drop tip rather than tanto. Very usuable knife to beat the piss out of and not care about really.. used it for everything(considering I got it at 16-17)




Lizzardborn said:


> It is not about being a bigot - I am sure a lot of the knives that are made are really well made. And that the (para)military guys and girls that use them can provide valuable feedback and exact requests.
> 
> What I am talking is something like that -I really cannot imagine a situation in which this knife will perform better any classical design. If someone that is specialist in CQC I will be glad to hear the opinions.
> 
> ...


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## ecchef (Jun 21, 2014)

rami_m said:


> Where and by whom?



A lot of guys where I am. Mostly Ka-bar types, some more high end stuff, nothing that can't be considered expendable. They are job specific tools for these people.
I have a few; never anticipate using them though. Really just because I like the maker and they're kinda hard to come by.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 21, 2014)

I carry a Spyderco Super Blue, patina & very sharp. Mostly used for slicing open letters & cutting boxes. It does get used for other things as well. I would consider a 3" locked Spyderco a weapon.

Use a M-390 for yardwork, it has a tough edge but not as refined as my Super blue. I have put that knife through all kinds of abuse that & my Cold Steel Bowie.


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## Keith Neal (Jun 21, 2014)

I have taken a few knife fighting classes with Steve Tarani, who some say is at the top of the class. They included classes with the folding carry knife and the karambit -- a wicked tool from Indonesia, equally dangerous to the untrained user. My folder is always carried and never used as a utility tool. If I need it, which I hope I never do, I want it very sharp.

The folder designed by Tarani and Strider is no longer available:




The karambit:




Keith


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## Chef Doom (Jun 22, 2014)

I bought a machete I know I would never use in case of a zombie apocalypse. Or any disaster that where I may need a weapon on hand in the future. 

Also I enjoyed the B-movie Machete.


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## Chef Doom (Jun 22, 2014)

I guess a question could be asked, who actually gets decent or practical field and work use out of their $500+ survival/fighter knife beyond the handy letter opener?


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## daveb (Jun 22, 2014)

When I think of of "fighters" I think of blades engraved with dragons and damsels, faux rubies and emeralds on the handles, and a goofy hand guard, all designed and marketed to pimply faced young lads. I don't know why anyone would want one but recognize that some people do.

I don't often carry a knife (except when hunting/fishing) but usually have a couple near at hand. Utility is more important to me than aesthetics.

For any self defense needs I've yet to see a knife that will trump a Glock.


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## ecchef (Jun 22, 2014)

daveb said:


> When I think of of "fighters" I think of blades engraved with dragons and damsels, faux rubies and emeralds on the handles, and a goofy hand guard....


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## Keith Neal (Jun 23, 2014)

daveb said:


> When I think of of "fighters" I think of blades engraved with dragons and damsels, faux rubies and emeralds on the handles, and a goofy hand guard, all designed and marketed to pimply faced young lads. I don't know why anyone would want one but recognize that some people do.
> 
> I don't often carry a knife (except when hunting/fishing) but usually have a couple near at hand. Utility is more important to me than aesthetics.
> 
> For any self defense needs I've yet to see a knife that will trump a Glock.



We had an emergency room surgeon in a number of pistol classes who had an interesting comment on that subject. He said in the ER, about 15% of gunshot victims died, and about 15% of knife wound victims survived. It certainly increased the distance at which I figured a knife carrying bad guy could get before time to open fire.


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## rami_m (Jun 23, 2014)

See I am getting worried here. Not sure if this is something I can get behind. I do boxing twice a week, but not sure if I want to enact violence upon others.


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## Chifunda (Jun 23, 2014)

No, *This* is a knife.


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## ecchef (Jun 24, 2014)

Beauty!! Loveless is the ****! 
My stuff's all utilitarian. The three babies:


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## Chef Doom (Jun 24, 2014)

Keith Neal said:


> We had an emergency room surgeon in a number of pistol classes who had an interesting comment on that subject. He said in the ER, about 15% of gunshot victims died, and about 15% of knife wound victims survived. It certainly increased the distance at which I figured a knife carrying bad guy could get before time to open fire.



I have about a dozen or so questions I would like to ask that ER doctor on the subject.

People forget that before carrying guns became the norm, most gangs carried knives because guns were too expensive. Even though most movies show the elaborate gun battles of the past, in reality most gangs, especially small gangs, were involved in many knife fights. Gang violence is actually what led switch blades to become illegal.


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## Keith Neal (Jun 27, 2014)

Fortunately, I don't know from experience, but some who do tell me knife fights are a nasty business. If you get in one, you are going to get cut, and though you may win the fight, you have a good chance of bleeding out before you can get to an ER.

This convinced me to always carry the 1911 .45, and to start shooting at a knife attacker by 21 feet. Inside that he can cut you before you can draw and fire, no matter how good you are. That has surprised a number of experts who did not believe it until they did some testing.


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## matt79 (Jun 27, 2014)

Seriously you carry a gun because you have heard knife fights are a "nasty business" are you for real.I lived in glasgow europes no 1 city for knife crime ,that still didnt make me carry a knife or a gun.I have found the most useful weapon is common sense and avoiding situations were you might end up in er.


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## Zerob (Jun 28, 2014)

When people get stabbed, they pull out the knife and bleed out quickly.

A bullet is made to expand and stay inside a person. People die from the shockwave of a bullet instead of blood loss.

In general, there is less blood loss from a bullet wound than a knife wound.


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## Chef Doom (Jun 28, 2014)

21 feet? Sounds like you have a slow draw. 

Now me? I prefer to carry a true warriors weapon. :nunchucks:

I Bruce Lee could kick ass with them, then I'm sure I would be a force to be reckoned with.


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## Lizzardborn (Jun 28, 2014)

The best weapon is always to retreat if possible. I had gun drawn towards me just once (it was in a semi joking situation - think Tommy from Goodfellas) and I just froze. Even if I had a portable nuke I would not be able to press the button. So I decided for myself that if I ever decide to arm myself it must go with some very serious combat training.


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## LKH9 (Jun 28, 2014)

I keep a homemade spear in my bedroom for defense against robbers armed with machetes/knives, longer, bigger thrusting weapon vs short blades + crammed area = auto-win. Never get into a knife-to-knife fight without any proper training/experience.

If I were outside and someone decides to rob me with weapons, I'll just surrender my money to him peacefully.


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## Chifunda (Jun 28, 2014)

Chef Doom said:


> 21 feet? Sounds like you have a slow draw.



Google Tueller Drill.


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## Noodle Soup (Jun 28, 2014)

Chifunda said:


> Google Tueller Drill.



A few thousand guys armed with a knife have been shot dead by the cops using the Tueller Drill as a defense for sure.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 28, 2014)

Tasers the choice for Methed up attacking crazy dudes:shocked3:


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 29, 2014)

matt79 said:


> Seriously you carry a gun because you have heard knife fights are a "nasty business" are you for real.I lived in glasgow europes no 1 city for knife crime ,that still didnt make me carry a knife or a gun.I have found the most useful weapon is common sense and avoiding situations were you might end up in er.



You didn't carry a gun because you live in countries that pretty much ban personal protection. I do agree, common sense is the most useful "weapon". I've been to every European country, and lived in Germany for three years, they are different cultures than the US. Plenty of dangerous places in Europe, I remember spending some time in Limerick, Ireland; I would not go out at night in most areas due to the shady nature of the place. Self protection is a basic human right, so yes, Keith is "for real". Life isn't unicorns and rainbows, and never will be as long as humans roam the earth. So really, the only option you have is to avoid potential conflict. Good luck with that!


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## matt79 (Jun 29, 2014)

@AFKitchenknivesguy
Please do me a favour and don`t try and turn this into a you europeans don`t understand are basic right to carry fire arms in the US thread .I have know problems with guns I grew up with them.What I found rather weird was that Keith stated that he had started carrying his gun after hearing about how gruesome a knife fight can end(wow what a revelation).And your right life isn`t unicorns and rainbows if it was maybe people wanting to attack you with a knife would start wielding it from 30 feet away giving you enough time to easily shoot him down in a clean and professional manner.In the real world you are probably going to be taken by surprise and if someone pulls a knife on you he is going to be pretty close to you.By the way I lived in the states for three years and I think i get the cultural differences ,my point being if you are attacked by someone carrying a knife in the US or europe chances are the outcome is going to be pretty messy.So I would have to agree that it is best to avoid potential conflict.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 29, 2014)

matt79 said:


> @AFKitchenknivesguy
> Please do me a favour and don`t try and turn this into a you europeans don`t understand are basic right to carry fire arms in the US thread .I have know problems with guns I grew up with them.What I found rather weird was that Keith stated that he had started carrying his gun after hearing about how gruesome a knife fight can end(wow what a revelation).And your right life isn`t unicorns and rainbows if it was maybe people wanting to attack you with a knife would start wielding it from 30 feet away giving you enough time to easily shoot him down in a clean and professional manner.In the real world you are probably going to be taken by surprise and if someone pulls a knife on you he is going to be pretty close to you.By the way I lived in the states for three years and I think i get the cultural differences ,my point being if you are attacked by someone carrying a knife in the US or europe chances are the outcome is going to be pretty messy.So I would have to agree that it is best to avoid potential conflict.



Yes, in close quarters a gun will probably not help you much if someone is wielding a knife a ready position and your gun is holstered. I think we agree on this point, there was never a Europe theme in my diatribe, although I can see why you would think that since said countries are pretty restrictive in ways to protect yourself. Depending on where you go in Europe, there can be very different laws and mindsets, particularly Sweden. With that said, many Asian countries and Australia are the same way. It's best to master common sense and situational awareness before mastering physical self-protections. 

It's not just the latter countries/areas of the world. I'm planning a trip to go camping at a national park in California. It's well known that California is pretty strict on their gun laws. Well, the places I want to camp have bears and mountain lions, but I'm not allowed to use a gun to protect myself. Note I wrote use...I'm allowed to bring a gun. Well, I'll practice our common sense/situational awareness credo and hope it works out...or I'll just practice my basic human right to self protection and blow that mountain lion away. I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. Stay safe!


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## matt79 (Jun 29, 2014)

Yeah mate you should definitely take your guns camping.I have heard an unarmed fight with a bear or mountain lion can be "nasty business".You might also want to keep an eye out for racoons they might look cute at first glance but don't let that fool you into not executing your basic human right for self protection.When dealing with wild animals it's always better to shoot first ask questions later .They just don't respond well to dialogue and lack a basic understanding of moral and ethical values in my opinion.Enjoy your holiday.


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## Dardeau (Jun 29, 2014)

I spent a few months living in a national park in MT. A handgun or a knife is basically useless against both bears and mountain lions; mountain lions because if they are stalking you, chances are you are not going to see them until you are mauled, bears because they are bears and a handgun round isn't going to knock them down. Good food containment, being loud, and as a last resort bear spray are going to be much more effective in not getting mauled by wildlife. 
Some people don't like guns, other people do. STFU about it.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 29, 2014)

Dardeau said:


> I spent a few months living in a national park in MT. A handgun is basically useless against both bears and mountain lions; mountain lions because if they are stalking you, chances are you are not going to see them



10mm for hiking, shotgun with slugs for camp.


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## Dardeau (Jun 29, 2014)

Also if you are in moose country look out. Those things have a worse temper than bears.


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## 29palms (Jul 2, 2014)

Back to the topic - I've had a Randall Model-1 since 1973. Mine is high carbon tool steel and has seen years of field use. It's a great all purpose knife, but it is a "fighting knife" by design. Look at the relief around the choil in front of the the hilt. It is large enough for the index finger to wrap around for thrusting and the pinky for stabbing. This locks the grip and lessens the chance of losing control of the knife in action. The nut on the pommel isn't just for looks it's for delivering a concentrated blow. I still take it with me on trips you just never know.


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