# Thoughts about less expensive Martell knives?



## Dave Martell

Does a line of less expensive Martell knives interest you?

I'm considering making (some of) my knives with pre-made Japanese wa handles. This would allow me a small savings in material costs but a *HUGE* savings in labor which I could pass along to my customers. I could also make a LOT more knives than I currently do meaning more availability. 

If the plan works out as I hope _(and of course it never does.... but anyway)_ I would start with 240mm gyutos, D-shaped handles done in magnolia wood and buffalo horn. 


So, would a Martell gyuto with a pre-made D-shaped handle be something that you'd be interested in if the price was right? I'd love to hear your thoughts.


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## Dave Martell

Cost savings possibility...


Custom handled 240mm gyuto = $575 (current pricing)

Pre-Made Handled 240mm gyuto = $325-$375 (ish)


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## WildBoar

I personally like the idea. It gives one a chance to get the Martell blade experience at an easy to access price point, which may lead to more premium-handle knife sales down the road. And it may be good offering for the kitchen pros, who want a great cutter but have a hard time digesting the added cost of a premium-wood western handle.


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## Mucho Bocho

Dave, I like it but instead of just slapping on a random handle, why don't you contract out the handle part. You could get nice bulk handles from your vendors: Stephan, Mikey or James. That way its not some ho hum ho wood but something semi custom. Kinda like what James did with the Tanaka Ginsan. Some decent wood in a nice shape with a simple ferrule? Id be interested, but for me its got to be in stainless or semi stainless steel variant. 

Will the blades be ground the same and finished to the Martell standard? Keep talking Dave I like where this conversation's going.


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## Bill13

I think it's a great idea for the same reasons David does.


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## Dave Martell

Mucho Bocho said:


> Dave, I like it but instead of just slapping on a random handle, shy don't you contract out the handle part. You could get nice bulk handles from your vendors: Stephan, Mikey or James. That way its not some ho hum ho wood but something semi custom. Kinda like what James did with the Tanaka Ginsan. Some decent wood in a nice shape with a simple ferrule? Id be interested, but for me its got to be in stainless or semi stainless steel variant.
> 
> Will the blades be ground the same and finished to the Martell standard? Keep talking Dave I like where this conversation's going.




Stefan actually made a whole slew of ready made off the shelf handles some years ago that we couldn't get takers on. The cost was at the same price point so maybe that was the reason. This might still be a viable option for getting more knives out but not for a lower price point.

Yes the blades would be done exactly the same as they are now, however, I would like to eventually move the higher end up line to a higher level finish....maybe even (gack) hand sanding even. That part is just gibber gabber though, the important thing to note is that the pre-made handles would not change the level of finish or how the blades are ground, they'd be done just as I have been doing.


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## Dave Martell

WildBoar said:


> I personally like the idea. It gives one a chance to get the Martell blade experience at an easy to access price point, which may lead to more premium-handle knife sales down the road. And it may be good offering for the kitchen pros, who want a great cutter but have a hard time digesting the added cost of a premium-wood western handle.





Bill13 said:


> I think it's a great idea for the same reasons David does.




This is what I was thinking too.


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## Dave Martell

BTW, this isn't all that different from what Carter has done forever.


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## Von blewitt

I like the idea, I would buy one!


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## Dardeau

I would as well


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## Bill13

You could also offer to sell them with no handle, so if some one has a handle of the right size laying around or has an idea of what they want the handle to look like they can choose, it becomes more personal. The second option would bump the overall price back up but they would have the option to choose the handle. We Americans love our choices.


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## Mute-on

I think it's an excellent idea. 
Not everyone has the means to pay a premium for a custom or even semi custom handle. The price difference is very significant. 
Good thinking Dave :thumbsup:


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## cheflarge

Sounds like a great tool for the professional kitchen! :biggrin:


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## Miho

I like the idea of a simple Ho wood handle (as long as its good f&f) if it is 325.

But if its going to be 400ish, honestly I would rather pay extra for a more personalized handle


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## johnstoc

I'd be interested. I can ease my way into the deep end of the pool... Have managed to avoid spending over $250 on a knife so far, but it's steadily creeping up. The journey has been great!


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## chinacats

Love the idea. 

I will say that you make as nice/comfortable handle as anyone. That said, I like to feel that I'm purchasing a certain steel/geometry more than a handle. Also, my personal preference runs to octagonal wa and I have to think that most people have their own preferences as well. 

Shigefusa has certainly done well with D-shaped ho handles


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## johnstoc

One thing I meant to add: a straight octagonal or other ambidextrous friendly option would be appreciated by us southpaws.


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## brianh

Totally would buy a 210mm.


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## aboynamedsuita

I think this is a good idea, for the reasons already mentioned. I recall the thread about ordering without a handle awhile ago, but this would allow the knife to be used in the interim, and allow the option of a handle to their taste (eg wa or western hidden tang)


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## jacko9

Good idea but my preference would be a wa octagon handle which you might be able to import as cheaply as the D-handle.


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## MAS4T0

I *wouldn't* buy one. Your handles are too much of a highlight, so I'd probably pass on one with an off the shelf handle and wait for the full package.

I do agree though that it would be a good move and that you'd sell a lot of them.


Edit: I just reconsidered, I would totally go for one if it would be possible to get it re-handled with a proper Dave Martell handle at a later date. 

I guess it could be considered kind of like an instalment plan, you pay 60% now and you get the knife, you then have the option of paying the other 40% to get the full works. Is that how it would work?


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## toddnmd

I like the idea. Some people don't care that much about handles, and you're talking about a pretty big price difference.
I'm not a big fan of ho handles in general. I like Mucho's idea about having a slightly upgraded handle as an option.


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## brainsausage

Offer both custom and customary. Case closed.


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## spoiledbroth

I wanted to chime in as someone who works in a kitchen and say dave may have picked up on something here that many vendors and makers in this market don't... 

Not everyone can put down 4-600 USD on a knife! In particular, the overwhelming majority of people in the service industry don't have money to burn. :razz:


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## ecchef

Sounds like a good idea Dave. Maybe offer a discount coupon with purchase if someone wanted to upgrade to custom rehandle down the line? Just a thought.


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## Dave Martell

Man you guys have come up with some great ideas here! 

Please keep them coming.


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## Matus

Sounds like a good idea. After all - we can still send the knife to you later to have a custom handle done


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## labor of love

I'm definitely interested.


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## Chuckles

But the handles are soo good. I can see the motivation but for me it would be like driving a Ferrari with a vinyl bench seat. Perhaps a subtle distinction for some, but over thousands of miles of twists and turns, for me, a worthwhile investment at the end of the day.


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## Dave Martell

Thanks for all the great input and ideas you guys provided. You've given me a lot to think about and reinforced many of the ideas I already had. 

I do plan on doing something with a pre-made handle option and there's some really good opportunities being presented so it should be a go on at least one level if not more. :thumbsup:

Thanks again!
Dave


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## DDPslice

I would get one


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## ecchef

How much more would say a burnt chestnut be over a plain ho, if they were available in bulk?


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## Dave Martell

ecchef said:


> How much more would say a burnt chestnut be over a plain ho, if they were available in bulk?




Plain ho isn't something I'm interested in so I never asked for pricing on that or for the burnt chestnut because of the plastic ferrules. If I use Japanese handles I'd greatly prefer to use magnolia over ho but I'm not against the burnt chestnut if buffalo horn is available. 

FWIW, these handles aren't inexpensive, just a lot less expensive then the total it takes to make handles myself.


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## Asteger

Dave Martell said:


> Plain ho isn't something I'm interested in ... If I use Japanese handles I'd greatly prefer to use magnolia over ho..



Apologies as I haven't followed this thread. However, I wonder if there's some misunderstanding.

'Ho' wood as it is usually called here is a kind of Japanese magnolia; 'magnolia obovata' my translator states. I don't really know about it and you can certainly check it out, or there might be a wood expert here that could chime in. 

I imagine there are various magnolia species, including what we normally term 'ho' for handles. The kanji for it is &#26420; and I'm not sure of the pronunciation. I've also heard the wood called &#12507;&#12458;&#12494;&#12461; 'honeki' from which it seems 'ho' is a short form. In other words, 'ho' and 'magnolia' are one in the same.

Not sure if this is a common mix up, but would be quite funny if people went for 'magnolia' over 'ho' handles due to the low reputation that ho handles have for many KKFers. A good ho handle is just fine for me, even it's not the most eye-catching.


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## Dave Martell

Good question!

I always thought, and I may be wrong here, that ho referred to the cheap light weight rough balsa like wood and that magnolia was the denser smoother wood we normally see paired with buffalo horn.

Maybe I'm confusing iichi (sp?) wood, chestnut and magnolia?


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## Asteger

Dave Martell said:


> Maybe I'm confusing iichi (sp?) wood and magnolia?



Iichi (yew) is a lot more orange or rust in colour, and I don't think very common. Sorry, as I was supposed to post a photo or two of various J handle woods in the 'knowledge' forum. Will get to it.


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## Dave Martell

Asteger said:


> Iichi (yew) is a lot more orange or rust in colour, and I don't think very common. Sorry, as I was supposed to post a photo or two of various J handle woods in the 'knowledge' forum. Will get to it.




Yes do that....I need some help!


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## WildBoar

I've always heard ho = magnolia, too.


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## sudsy9977

I think you'd be crazy to not offer it on your knives....Ryan


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## apicius9

FWIW, these OTS handles are still around somewhere, and I was thinking about selling them cheap rather than having them collect dust. Question is just whether people find them attractive enough...

Stefan


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## Dave Martell

Well guys and gals, it looks like there's going to be an option for lesser priced Martell knives coming and it's a good one. I'm actually so friggin' excited about this that it's hard to keep it in - but I will - until it's done and ready to launch. I will say that I believe this option is going to be a game changer for both myself and my future customers. :thumbsup:


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## WildBoar

Dave, that is great news.


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## Dave Martell

apicius9 said:


> FWIW, these OTS handles are still around somewhere, and I was thinking about selling them cheap rather than having them collect dust. Question is just whether people find them attractive enough...
> 
> Stefan




Those handles are really nice and even if not super flashy they should still sell I would think.


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## brianh

Can't wait, Dave.


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## DogsBreakfast

This is great news. Getting an awesome product (of any kind) for a better price is always nice, if it doesn't mean that anyone else is getting shorted as a result.

And people's preferences vary, but I often find the more elaborate, high end handles to be a bit much for my tastes. A good quality but simple option is perfect.

If the custom handles remain an option for those that want them, it sounds like everyone wins.


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## Dave Martell

Ok folks, it's time to tell you all about our newest offering. 

James of Knives and Stones has come forward with a solution to my problem and is now supplying me with pre-made wa handles that I will be installing on my knives when applicable. What this does is allow for me to turn over a new knife much quicker to save on labor which then can be passed onto you, my customers, in the way of a lower price point on my knives. 

James has varying levels of handles using different material components so the pricing will fluctuate depending on what is being used. *HERE* you can see the first knife completed (and FOR SALE) using one of James' more higher end pre-made handles. 

I hope that this will be the first of many and wish to thank James for his help and support with this situation. :doublethumbsup:


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## jacko9

Great move Dave and one that you would think makers like Kato and Shig would also copy. I can't imagine paying the price for one of their knives with a D shaped handle.


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## pkjames

Congratz on the new line Dave! :thumbsup:


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## Dave Martell

pkjames said:


> Congratz on the new line Dave! :thumbsup:




It's all you James! Thank you


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## Dave Martell

Next up will be a 270mm sujihiki with a handle from James done in ebony/black buffalo horn with a slim white G10 spacer....pretty slick!


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## KCMande

Dave Martell said:


> Next up will be a 270mm sujihiki with a handle from James done in ebony/black buffalo horn with a slim white G10 spacer....pretty slick!



CPM or O1? 
I might need to ask for a raise tomorrow


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## Dave Martell

KCMande said:


> CPM or O1?
> I might need to ask for a raise tomorrow




O1


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## aboynamedsuita

This is a win-win for all, really nice to see fellow vendors working together.


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## panda

Any.plans for a 210 gyuto in O1?


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## Dave Martell

I haven't planned on making small gyutos although lately people have been asking about them an awful lot. I'll give it some thought.


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## Bill13

I think some smaller gyuto's in CMP would be nice too, sorry panda. Wives, significant others, or older children feel more comfortable with smaller knives and the CMP is more forgiving if not washed/dried promptly.


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## WildBoar

x 1.5. CPM-154 is very spouse- and company-friendly, and also great when you have a little distraction always running around who want to take mommy or daddy away frmo the cutting board to go play for a bit.

Was only x1.5 because 225 would be short enough. 210 starts to feel like a petty. Good for the pros who have to work in small spaces, but I'm, being selfish here


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## aboynamedsuita

I'd be interested in something line-knife sized, sort of 180-195 with about 40 at the heel. Bigger than a petty but not a full blown gyuto.


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## Dave Martell

Dave Martell said:


> Next up will be a 270mm sujihiki with a handle from James done in ebony/black buffalo horn with a slim white G10 spacer....pretty slick!




Just finished mounting up the handle on this one, it'll likely be up for sale in two days time.


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## brainsausage

jacko9 said:


> Great move Dave and one that you would think makers like Kato and Shig would also copy. I can't imagine paying the price for one of their knives with a D shaped handle.



Shigs D-shaped handles are leagues above the standard D handles out there.


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## Dardeau

I really wish people would send all their old shig handles to me.


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## panda

Dardeau said:


> I really wish people would send all their old shig handles to me.



+1
i would actually purchase shig d handle if they were available.
i wish you could buy the burnt chestnut handles from gengetsu.


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## Dave Martell

Dave Martell said:


> Ok folks, it's time to tell you all about our newest offering.
> 
> James of Knives and Stones has come forward with a solution to my problem and is now supplying me with pre-made wa handles that I will be installing on my knives when applicable. What this does is allow for me to turn over a new knife much quicker to save on labor which then can be passed onto you, my customers, in the way of a lower price point on my knives.
> 
> James has varying levels of handles using different material components so the pricing will fluctuate depending on what is being used. *HERE* you can see the first knife completed (and FOR SALE) using one of James' more higher end pre-made handles.
> 
> I hope that this will be the first of many and wish to thank James for his help and support with this situation. :doublethumbsup:





UPDATE>

I had put it this on hold because I needed to get old pre-paid orders out and that took some time to do. Now that most of those are complete I want to get rolling on using pre-made wa handles again. Just today I got with James to start this up. 

I'm really excited to be able to offer this option, I just know it'll be well received. 

Thanks to all of you for your interest and keeping me rolling. :doublethumbsup:


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## Bill13

Whoo Hooo!, Dave will these also be available with no handles?


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## Dave Martell

Bill13 said:


> Whoo Hooo!, Dave will these also be available with no handles?




Oh yeah, that's welcome. 

Already been done before....check it out....
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...Martell-Knives?p=368457&viewfull=1#post368457


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## Bill13

I'm thinking of a 270 suji, and using one of your handle coupons on one of the upcoming Stefan handles. Thinking before Thanksgiving:bigeek:


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

OK, I'm being iconoclastic here: Isn't buffalo horn exactly the adds-no-user-value thing that one would want to get rid off in a value-for-money knife?


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## labor of love

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> OK, I'm being iconoclastic here: Isn't buffalo horn exactly the adds-no-user-value thing that one would want to get rid off in a value-for-money knife?



No. Infact at the price point mentioned before, anything cheaper would negate the value of this line. Buffalo horn ferrule handles normally retail between $40-80 maybe? Hard to imagine installing something cheaper than that on a knife that will sell for $325 minimum.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Dunno, I'd readily accept a plastic ferrule (if equal or better in wear resistance) in a $325 knife if that meant $20 more effort going into the blade instead.


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## Dave Martell

A little birdie (_named James_) whispered to me that a package of handles is headed my way. :whistling:


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## TheCaptain

Dave Martell said:


> A little birdie (_named James_) whispered to me that a package of handles is headed my way. :whistling:



If we don't get pictures it didn't happen...


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## aboynamedsuita

I believe it without pics I've been discussing a few handles with James too


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## TheCaptain

tjangula said:


> I believe it without pics I've been discussing a few handles with James too



(of course I believe him...I just want to see some pictures)


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