# Bang for buck under $40?



## killerfrenzi (Jul 23, 2017)

LOCATION
What country are you in? USA



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Gyuto, and regular chef knives

Are you right or left handed? right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? Either

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 8"

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? $40



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home, first decent knife but I live with roommates

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) Slicing, chopping, mincing veggies, meats, trimming meats

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Kiwi knives

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) push-cutting since I have Kiwi santokus, but I'm open to any

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) I just need a good all-rounder

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? n/a

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? C

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? sharp out of box, good learning knife

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? at least 1 month



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) plastic and wood

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) no

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) not yet



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I was looking into getting a decent knife since I want to focus a bit on cooking. I live with 2 roommates, and I'm a little afraid they'll mess up my knife. So I'm setting my budget to $40 since the knife I was looking towards was the Wusthof Pro 8" Chef knife ($30) and I wanted to shop around before getting it. I'm really interested Gyutos but I'm not sure what's a comparable gyuto (in terms of quality) to the Wusthof. Budget is pretty strict or else I'd be getting a Tojiro Gyuto if it weren't that I had roommates.

I'm also planning to get learn knife maintenance (ie. honing and sharpening) along the line.


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## daveb (Jul 23, 2017)

I have a couple Wustie Pro knives from a short stint on a food truck. They suck less than other knives at that price point. Rock and Roll.

If you go to $100, you'll open up to more possibilities for an inexpensive knife.


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## panda (Jul 23, 2017)

this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000638D32/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 23, 2017)

Is there any $30-40 gyuto that can be recommended over the Victorinox or Wusthof?

Or I'm better off sticking with the above 2?


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## K813zra (Jul 23, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Is there any $30-40 gyuto that can be recommended over the Victorinox or Wusthof?
> 
> Or I'm better off sticking with the above 2?



The only $40 or less 210mm gyuto I can think of is a Tojiro color series and you can only get it from one place that cheap. On amazon it is closer to $50. They are okay knives for the price.


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## panda (Jul 23, 2017)

a vic is already more knife than anyone ever needs. the most important part is that it can withstand the abuse from room mates. if you want more performance then get a coarse stone and learn to thin the blade or find somebody to do it for you.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 23, 2017)

+1 for the Victorinox at that price point. The chef's knife has a more pronounced German-style belly that most Japanese knives. Their 7" Santoku has a flatter belly and will give a longer straight("-ish") cutting edge, but less pronounced point. Which you'd prefer depends on your cutting technique.

Anybody know anything about Kai? Searched Amazon for "Kai Gyuto knife" and this:

cheap Wa-Gyuto

turns up for $40. It looks more of a typical Japanese profile at OP's price point. IIRC- I've seen mixed reviews for Kai knives ranging from "great value" to "complete cr**". I don't think I've ever seen one in the flesh.

ETA: I've never seen anyone say Kai knives are great without some qualifier, like "for the price".


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 23, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> +1 for the Victorinox at that price point. The chef's knife has a more pronounced German-style belly that most Japanese knives. Their 7" Santoku has a flatter belly and will give a longer straight("-ish") cutting edge, but less pronounced point. Which you'd prefer depends on your cutting technique.
> 
> Anybody know anything about Kai? Searched Amazon for "Kai Gyuto knife" and this:
> 
> ...



Several years ago I bought a Kai to see what it was about. I thought it was fitting when I gave it away to someone who threw away knives when they became dull.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 23, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Several years ago I bought a Kai to see what it was about. I thought it was fitting when I gave it away to someone who threw away knives when they became dull.



Wow, that good. Never mind & sorry all!


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## Matus (Jul 23, 2017)

Did you consider buying something well used? $40 is tight, but maybe it could get you a used Tojiro DP or some Fujiwara FKM or similar.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 23, 2017)

I definitely pinch grip and the Wusthof and Vic have the handles shaped making it hard for a pinch grip.

I'm looking into Gyuto since I thought it might be good to start using one early on.

Would something like this *be crap*?


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## panda (Jul 23, 2017)

could this be a cheaper victorinox? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000ZLU6FS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 and does an 8" version of this exist?


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 23, 2017)

Matus said:


> Did you consider buying something well used? $40 is tight, but maybe it could get you a used Tojiro DP or some Fujiwara FKM or similar.



I haven't considered something used, but I thought it'd be nice to have something new to learn sharpening with it.


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## panda (Jul 23, 2017)

if you dont like the plastic handle victorinox makes rosewood handle version about same price.


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## Matus (Jul 23, 2017)

Something like *THIS* fits your budget and will be excellent to learn sharpening on. The seller is reputable.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 23, 2017)

There's a lot of $40 gyutos on Amazon (210mm too!), are any of those good?

EDIT: *Is this* pretty much a Victorinox gyuto?


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 23, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> ... EDIT: *Is this* pretty much a Victorinox gyuto?



No. Yes. It depends on what you mean by Gyuto.

It's a Chef's Knife (and, I think, a great deal.)

As I understand it, Gyuto is Japanese for a western-style chef's knife. Usually they're made with Japanese techniques and have a reduced belly compared to a to a German-style chef's knife typical in the US. (They're more French-style, search for the many threads on Sabatier for example.) So gyuto in only the very loosest sense.

ETA: at 9" it is a little longer than the typical 7-8" knives used at home. Though around here, amongst the enthusiasts, 240mm (~9") is pretty popular.


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## chiffonodd (Jul 23, 2017)

I bet someone would sell you a used tojiro DP or fujI FKM for thereabouts on BST if you posted a WTB.


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## gic (Jul 23, 2017)

Go to Costco and buy the Tramontina chef knife set for about $12 

A Wusthof Pro 8" for $30

or or slightly more expensive, there's this (which includes a paring knife).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011E16JHG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## daveb (Jul 23, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> There's a lot of $40 gyutos on Amazon (210mm too!), are any of those good?
> 
> EDIT: *Is this* pretty much a Victorinox gyuto?



No. And No.

I dont want to sound like an elitist dick but all this discussion of a "good" knife at a $30 price point reminds me of a joke from my college days. Young lad feeling randy went to the local house of ill repute. Wanted some loving but only had $5. It goes downhill fast from there.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 23, 2017)

daveb said:


> Young lad feeling randy went to the local house of ill repute. Wanted some loving but only had $5. It goes downhill fast from there.


I don't get it.



I don't suppose he did either.


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## sharptools (Jul 23, 2017)

daveb said:


> No. And No.
> 
> I dont want to sound like an elitist dick but all this discussion of a "good" knife at a $30 price point reminds me of a joke from my college days. Young lad feeling randy went to the local house of ill repute. Wanted some loving but only had $5. It goes downhill fast from there.



daveb, I don't think you're being unreasonable. If you look at the guest knives thread, most people talk about either supermarket santokus with tojiro being the next step up. A lot of members here are interested in j-knife style knives and I am going to boldly declare that Tojiro or Fujiwara FKM are probably considered THE entry level j-knives. While Wustofs are better knives than your average supermarket santokus, asking for validation with a $30 wustof is basically no different than asking validation for a supermarket santoku.


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## daveb (Jul 23, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't suppose he did either.



He did. But I'll let Panda finish the story.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 23, 2017)

daveb said:


> He did. But I'll let Panda finish the story.



I don't think a $30-40 knife is like getting some $5 loving.

Point being, I'm not expecting a $30 Wusthof or the Vic to perform like the Entry-levels you guys recommend, I'm just trying to explore what's comparable since I'm not a big fan of the handle. 

That, and I want to see if there are any japanese knives that aren't utter crap in that range.


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## panda (Jul 23, 2017)

i would but i'm afraid the people viewing this thread don't have the proper level of imagination or sense of humor for the story to go on.

frenzi if youre hung up on handle at the bottom of the barrel you're going to be quite disappointed. all the handles suck even on $100 knives. like i said the rosewood version is not bad https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007V2CJDQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

or you could be our guinea pig and try this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ERJTK1E/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 built like a german knife but shape of a gyuto


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 23, 2017)

panda said:


> i would but i'm afraid the people viewing this thread don't have the proper level of imagination or sense of humor for the story to go on.
> 
> frenzi if youre hung up on handle at the bottom of the barrel you're going to be quite disappointed. all the handles suck even on $100 knives. like i said the rosewood version is not bad https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007V2CJDQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> or you could be our guinea pig and try this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ERJTK1E/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 built like a german knife but shape of a gyuto



I'm probably just going to get either the Wusthof or the Rosewood Vic since, for the most part, they're the most recommended have good reviewers backing them.

I'm just a little hung up on the handle if I can find something better at the price.

Maybe I'll come across a comparable gyuto if I dig deeper. Someone linked a decent-looking 180mm gyuto that I'll consider. Or maybe even looking for a Tojiro used.


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## Dirt (Jul 23, 2017)

How come no one has suggested a kiwi?!??


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 23, 2017)

The problem is, the Kiwi you are using are unbeatable from a bang for the buck perspective. Yours might just need sharpening, which is easy on these since the hollow grind keeps it from getting too thick quickly.

IKEAs metal handled 365+ are a good tip, but stories abound of bad factory edges, so these might take sharpening skill to make serviceable.

Samura's white handled AUS-8 (the Harakiri series) - but they are a bit thick out of the box, might need some stonework.

I have very rarely had a factory edge last me for a month or two.. that only happens when you found the right edge to put on a certain knife to match your usage of it.


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## ChefJimbo (Jul 23, 2017)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008GRUNOC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Buy these for my sisters all the time...............recommended by daveb or salty, can't remember who...........but the sisters love em


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## Obsidiank (Jul 23, 2017)

I almost feel like this whole thread is a troll. Guy walks into house of ill repute and wanted some loving for 5 dollars. Everyone recommends big bertha. He wants to know if he can get someone with teeth.


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## labor of love (Jul 23, 2017)

Dexter russel. They even make wide bevels these days &#128512;


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## labor of love (Jul 23, 2017)

http://www.dexterrussellcutlery.com...s-10-cooks-knife-black-handle-31601b-p94802b/
I don't know who the blacksmith is for this line.

Mercer is another recommendation, I think they're Chinese made wusties 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OOQZMY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 24, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> ...
> 
> What knife, if any, are you replacing? Kiwi knives
> ....



It's not clear to me any of the knives suggested within your budget will be significantly better than what you have. Perhaps you should focus on sharpening skills and stone(s) to optimize what you have, while you save up for a better class of knife?


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 24, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> It's not clear to me any of the knives suggested within your budget will be significantly better than what you have. Perhaps you should focus on sharpening skills and stone(s) to optimize what you have, while you save up for a better class of knife?



The Kiwi is a 6" santouka that I don't like, and my roommates have taken a whetstone to it so many times. I could practice sharpening on it but I don't enjoy using it when I'm cooking.


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## sharptools (Jul 24, 2017)

Dirt said:


> How come no one has suggested a kiwi?!??



The questionnaire says he's trying to replace Kiwis :lol2:


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 24, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> The Kiwi is a 6" santouka that I don't like, and my roommates have taken a whetstone to it so many times. I could practice sharpening on it but I don't enjoy using it when I'm cooking.



OK. Maybe decide what cooking techniques you want to work on. My wife likes a chef's knife with a significant belly because she learned and uses a European/French technique that requires it. I naturally use a more Japanese push cutting technique and of the $40 range knives a Santoku typically has the least curved belly and is my preference. They tend to be shorter than chef's knives, but have a longer usable flattish cutting edge. In your price range 7" is the longest I've seen. (E.g. Victorinox's.) A cheap faux-Japanese knife with a big belly isn't much different than the Euro-style chef knives suggested to you already.

If you changed your price range to "$80-100, $150 max", I'm sure you'd open the door to a better category of Japanese knives. (Some of which have already been mentioned.)


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## LoneWolfGang (Jul 24, 2017)

I'm going to catch some hate for this comment...

I say spend your money on a whetstone and stick to your Kiwis. Learn how to sharpen while you save a little bit of money for a decent quality knife.

Do not underestimate the Kiwi. I worked for many years a high-volume from-scratch restaurant. Many of our chefs used Kiwi knives exclusively.


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## labor of love (Jul 24, 2017)

LoneWolfGang said:


> I'm going to catch some hate for this comment...
> 
> I say spend your money on a whetstone and stick to your Kiwis. Learn how to sharpen while you save a little bit of money for a decent quality knife.
> 
> Do not underestimate the Kiwi. I worked for many years a high-volume from-scratch restaurant. Many of our chefs used Kiwi knives exclusively.



Kiwi knives serve well as house knives. They suck to sharpen though if memory serves. I'm not sure what kinda performance improvements one can expect with a $40 budget. Tojiro dp or cck/shibazi would be huge jumps in performance For not much more $$$.


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## gic (Jul 24, 2017)

Actually if we are going the thai route Kom Kom or Penguin are much better than Kiwi and not very expensive. Kom Kom (which is the "pro" version of Kiwi) makes a chef knife that I've never seen in the US but is probably the best really cheap chef's knife I have ever seen. I bought a bunch to give away as gifts when I was in Thailand, I think they ran about $8 each... Their bunka is quite nice although I think the Penguin is better..


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 24, 2017)

Tojiro dp would definitely be great, but I can't justify $70 on a knife. If I can find a 210mm at $50 new I would, but that's unlikely.

I'm expecting $40 will give me a decent workhorse knife that I don't mind getting ruined for whatever misuse. The Kiwi I have doesn't seem to keep sharp edge for long, so I'm a little inclined to spend the $40, especially with reviews saying how far the $40 can go.

It seems that it doesn't really matter what I get at $40, as long as the steel and manufacturer is decent , I can make up for where it lacks with a whetstone that I plan to get anyways. If that seems reasonably true.

EDIT: *Found this Shun 8" for $60*


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## labor of love (Jul 24, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Tojiro dp would definitely be great, but I can't justify $70 on a knife. If I can find a 210mm at $50 new I would, but that's unlikely.
> 
> I'm expecting $40 will give me a decent workhorse knife that I don't mind getting ruined for whatever misuse. The Kiwi I have doesn't seem to keep sharp edge for long, so I'm a little inclined to spend the $40, especially with reviews saying how far the $40 can go.
> 
> It seems that it doesn't really matter what I get at $40, as long as the steel and manufacturer is decent , I can make up for where it lacks with a whetstone that I plan to get anyways. If that seems agreeable.



Well if your budget is $40 for a knife, how much are you willing to spend on a stone?


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 24, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Well if your budget is $40 for a knife, how much are you willing to spend on a stone?



I haven't put too much thought or research yet, but looks like I can get a King for about $40.

And then there's a honing rod that I should probably get too.

Looks like CKTG has a it's own gyuto that i can consider for only $30. Maybe that's the winner


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## Eloh (Jul 24, 2017)

Dick pro dynamic


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## tienowen (Jul 24, 2017)

Maybe Masahiro Gyuto sale at Amazon. Their price not bad good for first J-kinfe
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KUSLV6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KPBO06/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J3K1GT2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
All the knife under 70$.


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## Obsidiank (Jul 24, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Tojiro dp would definitely be great, but I can't justify $70 on a knife. If I can find a 210mm at $50 new I would, but that's unlikely.
> 
> 
> EDIT: *Found this Shun 8" for $60*



I'm confused by your comments about a 70 knife not being justifiable but then you post a link for a 60 knife. So 10 bucks is your make or break? You realize tax and gas would wipe out your margin of justifiability right? 

The shun isn't a bad deal. Its got a vg10 cutting core but it wrapped in cheaper steel. It should last you a few years.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

Obsidiank said:


> The shun isn't a bad deal. Its got a vg10 cutting core but it wrapped in cheaper steel. It should last you a few years.


That's interesting, I wouldn't have known Shun (and no doubt others) cheap out on the outer steel, and just a few years sounds shocking to me. How bad can it be? (I have some very cheap 'set' knives that are decades old)

Presumably the steel used on the brands I often see recommended here (Takamura, Tanaka, Itinomonn Kasumi) should last for many years?


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## foody518 (Jul 24, 2017)

Would be surprised if Obsidiank meant anything other than the cladding steel being cheaper than the core steel which is the case for all the clad knives we talk about - Tojiro, Tanaka, Itinomonn, Takamura, etc. 

Pinch grip on a Victorinox Rosewood is doable. The 10 inch has more useable flat to offset that belly curvature to the high tip. Should be around $40-45 if you shop around, it can occasionally found lightly used on ebay for less.
Edge retention of however long is going to depend on your usage and also subjective standards for when an edge has dulled past satisfactory use.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Jul 24, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> That's interesting, I wouldn't have known Shun (and no doubt others) cheap out on the outer steel, and just a few years sounds shocking to me. How bad can it be? (I have some very cheap 'set' knives that are decades old)
> 
> Presumably the steel used on the brands I often see recommended here (Takamura, Tanaka, Itinomonn Kasumi) should last for many years?


There were some rumors about Shun's heat treatment not being the best when it comes to VG10. If it's true, you'll get chipping often. That would require resharpening/repairs. That's about the worst case scenario. 

If the HT is well made (like on Tanaka knives) then that Shun should last you a lifetime (assuming proper care and no abuse from user side).


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## Colorado_cutter (Jul 24, 2017)

If I were in your position, I'd go for the wokshop veggie cleaver 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00018U1J6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
and a Victorinox parer and put any leftover money toward a water stone down the road. I've got a Tojiro DP santoku (got it for my wife; she uses it from time to time) and I'd take the wokshop cleaver over it any day of the week. Also, as far as learning to sharpen, the carbon steel of the wokshop cleaver will be easier to sharpen and get sharper than the generic X50CrMoV15 steel of the knives you're looking at. It sort of also depends on how much you're willing to tolerate rust, given your roommate situation.

As far as a chef knife, though, that Victorinox for $30 looks like a good deal. The handle on the Wustie looks horrible to me.


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## panda (Jul 24, 2017)

The wustie pro has best heat treat of the cheapest, but blade profile and handle leave a lot to be desired.


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## pleue (Jul 24, 2017)

Get on eBay and look for a bolsterless old carbon chef knife. Search carbon chef(s) knife, vintage chef knife, etc and filter to used results. Your budget will demand more legwork on your part but you should come away with more knife for your money


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 24, 2017)

Thoughts on this *CKTG Line Gyuto (5Cr15MOV Steel) *?

considering this vs wusties, vic, and all the otoher knives being recommended.

btw- I really appreciate the help so far


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## K813zra (Jul 24, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Thoughts on this *CKTG Line Gyuto (5Cr15MOV Steel) *?



It looks like a thinning project, to me. I suppose the photo could be deceptive but it looks quite thick behind the edge. I am not familiar with the steel but Cr-Mov steel is normally on the lower end of the spectrum.


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## Colorado_cutter (Jul 24, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Thoughts on this *CKTG Line Gyuto (5Cr15MOV Steel) *?
> 
> considering this vs wusties, vic, and all the otoher knives being recommended.
> 
> btw- I really appreciate the help so far



Ug! That looks just like the grind on the Artifex I had a few years back. See that little "house rooftop shape" at the very tip on the third picture? What that means it that unless you grind away heck of a lot of metal, it won't cut worth a damn- it'll wedge in everything. I never did get that Artifex right even after hours with stones- just too much evil shoulder there. And even if you get the shoulder smoothed out, the blade itself looks quite thick. I agree with K813zra- that's a project knife. I would suggest avoiding that vendor altogether.


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## Benuser (Jul 24, 2017)

The absolute minimum is $60 for a carbon K-Sabatier. Expect some work to be done. Or pay a little more and get a Fujiwara FKH.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 24, 2017)

Well, Shun did (do?) make some solid (massive) vg10 ones too - but is there much advantage except scratch resistance at the price of hard sharpening and fragility?


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## JaVa (Jul 24, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Thoughts on this *CKTG Line Gyuto (5Cr15MOV Steel) *?
> 
> considering this vs wusties, vic, and all the otoher knives being recommended.
> 
> btw- I really appreciate the help so far



Cheez what a fat bastard (Austin Powers ref.) behind the edge. 

I have a piece of 2x4 here somewhere with about as much cutting abilities.


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## K813zra (Jul 24, 2017)

Benuser said:


> The absolute minimum is $60 for a carbon K-Sabatier. Expect some work to be done. Or pay a little more and get a Fujiwara FKH.



I love my FKH and think that is a wonderful suggestion. It is a budget blade but it is one of my favorites.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 24, 2017)

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B01LW6N15Y/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 (the chef knife also exists as a single item in some markets).

Among my favorite cheapos

Seem to be rarely seen in US shops though - bit flimsy round the bolster (tends to be that way with stamped knives), and as I mentioned they benefit from some thinning, but you get a french/japanese profile chef knife made from a specified steel that has an ironic name and doesn't look totally ugly.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 24, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> https://www.amazon.de/dp/B01LW6N15Y/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 (the chef knife also exists as a single item in some markets).
> 
> Among my favorite cheapos
> 
> Seem to be rarely seen in US shops though - bit flimsy round the bolster (tends to be that way with stamped knives), and as I mentioned they benefit from some thinning, but you get a french/japanese profile chef knife made from a specified steel that has an ironic name and doesn't look totally ugly.



That seems to be scarcely available in the US.

Looking for something on ebay for a possibly cheap FKH, came along *this*

The more I look at the random japanese knives available on ebay, the more overwhelmed with options. I can't tell what's good or what's not.


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## daveb (Jul 24, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Looking for something on ebay for a possibly cheap FKH, came along *this*



Yawn. Just another POS trying to cash in on the Japanese knife trend.


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## DanDan (Jul 24, 2017)

What about a Tojiro VG-10? (here and here). I've only seen them in 180mm though. I was going to suggest the Tojiro Pro series (the all silver ones), but it seems to be pricier than I remembered in my head. Maybe check out the options at this store  and see if anything pops out. This one is 210mm but I know nothing about it.


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## WOK-a-holic (Jul 25, 2017)

thrift store


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## labor of love (Jul 25, 2017)

If you can purchase a shibazi cleaver like the one on the most recent page of the show your newest knife buy thread for $40, I think that would definitely be the best performer in this price range.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 25, 2017)

I'm edging towards upping my budget to $60 the more I look at it. That's absolute limit since I've already been pushing my budget. But that's almost Tojiro DP range. 

I did get a chance to hold some knives at William Sonoma. The belly on German knives don't feel natural to me, so a Gyuto-style is more preferred.

Are there anything else in the $60 range I could consider?

Shun Sora

Tojiro Shirogami

Masahiro Gyuto

Tojiro DP

If I really wuss out, this Mercer

But I could always still get the Wusthof or Vic if I want to get use to the German-style more.


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## Chef_ (Jul 25, 2017)

Theres no knife i can earnestly recommend for $40. Why not just wait and save up to get a better knife?


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

If willing to spend a little more add Fujiwara FKM to your list. It is mono steel stainless with good grind & rather thin tip. Then get a cheap King stone for around 25.00. Some good free sharpening video's will put you towards sharp knives. Knowing how to put an edge on your nice knife will keep it cutting well.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 25, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> Theres no knife i can earnestly recommend for $40. Why not just wait and save up to get a better knife?



It's not about having the money in the pocket, but just how much I would want to budget for something. But I did up my budget a little since another $30 would go a long way, so it seems.

Though I'm not entirely sure how what the quality jump is from $40 to $70 is that makes all the other knives at $40 such a poor contender to everyone. So far it seems it's blade thickness, material, and some sort of heritage. 

I'm by no means a die-hard cook/knife enthusiast, and there are many accounts that a Victorinox is all I will need. It just happens that I'm not very good with the large belly of that knife and any J-styles at $40 are touted to suck.



keithsaltydog said:


> If willing to spend a little more add Fujiwara FKM to your list. It is mono steel stainless with good grind & rather thin tip. Then get a cheap King stone for around 25.00. Some good free sharpening video's will put you towards sharp knives. Knowing how to put an edge on your nice knife will keep it cutting well.



I really want to, already stretching the budget. What's the big difference between the FKM and Tojiro?

What's the likely hood of messing up my knife when I'm learning?


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## Chef_ (Jul 25, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> It's not about having the money in the pocket, but just how much I would want to budget for something. But I did up my budget a little since another $30 would go a long way, so it seems.
> 
> Though I'm not entirely sure how what the quality jump is from $40 to $70 is that makes all the other knives at $40 such a poor contender to everyone. So far it seems it's blade thickness, material, and some sort of heritage.
> 
> ...



Well there really is no true "gyuto" available for 40 dollars. Its not about blade thickness and material, its just that what you want doesnt exist.

Im not sure how you came up with your budget of $40, but its not in the ballpark of what youre looking for.... its like going to a Mercedes dealership and asking what you can get for $1000.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 25, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> Well there really is no true "gyuto" available for 40 dollars. Its not about blade thickness and material, its just that what you want doesnt exist.
> 
> Im not sure how you came up with your budget of $40, but its not in the ballpark of what youre looking for.... its like going to a Mercedes dealership and asking what you can get for $1000.



$40 budget comes from Victorinox being a highly recommended blade. 

I wasn't expecting gyutos to be the Mercedes of the chef knife world. My mistake, but I wouldn't have accepted that without confirming with you guys.

I also forgot about honing rods and cutting boards. what would be a good accompaniment to the FKM/DP?


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## Chef_ (Jul 25, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> $40 budget comes from Victorinox being a highly recommended blade.
> 
> I wasn't expecting gyutos to be the Mercedes of the chef knife world. My mistake, but I wouldn't have accepted that without confirming with you guys.
> 
> I also forgot about honing rods and cutting boards. what would be a good accompaniment to the FKM/DP?



Well youre talking about handmade knives here, vs mass produced , factory made knives from western manufacturers .

Dont need a honing rod for a j-knife, its bad for the blade, just keep it touched up on a 6000. Any kind of soft wood is good for a cutting board.


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## tsuriru (Jul 25, 2017)

I have been following this thread, and there are some very good points made here. I would like to add the following:

Cheap mass produced kitchen knives are usually made of inferior materials, with almost no intention of providing a long lasting service life in your kitchen. They are mostly ugly and stick out like a sour thumb in any kitchen. They do not hold their edge for very long, and are usually tricky if not altogether impossible to re-sharpen properly. It all translates to an unpleasant cutting and maintenance experience for the owner. 

The industry that makes these sub-par kitchen knives, spewing them out across the globe, is an extremely polluting industry, both in terms of the manufacturing process, and later on, disposal by the consumers. Many of these knives contain a fair amount of plastics and other materials that are not bio degradable and extremely harmful to the environment. I suspect some of the cheaper knives are that cheap in part because they are manufactured in sweat-shop conditions i.e. you are paying your money to someone who is abusing worker safety and employment rights - How concerned can someone like that be with your safety? your cutting experience? your ease of maintenance? If you can live with that - that is fine. But you should be aware of the more sinister factors involved with cheap mass produced products. Finally, the majority of work or home accidents involving a knife are most often caused by these very knives because they are notoriously dull after a short span of use - and dull knives slip and slash.

My advise to you is *save your hard earned cash and get a good knife.* Ask yourself how many crappy knives you will go through before the aggregate funds invested in them is equal or greater than the cost of a single good knife and a stone that will last you a life time? 

:2cents:


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## rick alen (Jul 25, 2017)

You can find "new old-stock" sabatiers on ebay for under $40.

The clunky Vic/nsf handle is easy to fix with a dremel and drum sander attachment.

The BST route is still your best option for a decent knife.

Or buy the Tramotinas for $12 bucks and use those till you can afford soemthing better.


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## JaVa (Jul 25, 2017)

I would forget the Tojiro Shirogami. It's the most reactive knife in the world. Your room mates will ruin it for sure. If you can get the Fujiwara FKM from Japanese chef knives. Just a week ago I handled my neighbours santoku and it's a really nice knife. The DP is nice too. 

Their difference is that Tojiro has just a little bit better (VG10) steel and the Fujiwara (AUS8) has better handle and F&F.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 25, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Though I'm not entirely sure how what the quality jump is from $40 to $70 is that makes all the other knives at $40 such a poor contender to everyone. So far it seems it's blade thickness, material, and some sort of heritage.


I think the heritage is simply because you know the knife will have been produced properly, correctly heated and tempered etc.



> I'm by no means a die-hard cook/knife enthusiast, and there are many accounts that a Victorinox is all I will need. It just happens that I'm not very good with the large belly of that knife and any J-styles at $40 are touted to suck.


A Victorinox is all most people 'need', but life isn't all about need.



> What's the likely hood of messing up my knife when I'm learning?


It depends how slap dash you are. If you treat a J knife the way I've treated all the previous knives I've ever owned (lobbed in the sink, dumped in the dishwasher, then slung in the draw with all the others), you'll have wasted your money, but if you treat it the way I'm treating my new J knife (like a god) it will be fine. My wife isn't so keen on being gentle with the knife, so I've bought a Vnox for her.



killerfrenzi said:


> $40 budget comes from Victorinox being a highly recommended blade.


The Vnox (like all western knives) is softer steel and a different beast to a J knife, and the Vnox is one of the (if not the) best bang for buck chef's knife. If you want a reasonable J knife, it will cost a bit more than a Vnox, but then it will have its benefits.



> I wasn't expecting gyutos to be the Mercedes of the chef knife world.


Maybe think of it like this - instead of brands of cars, think of types of cars - so maybe western knives are saloon cars, and J knives are sports cars - you can get a decent saloon for less money than a decent sports car. You can get a cheap sports car (or a cheap J knife), but it's not easy to make a cheap sports car (or J knife) properly.



> I also forgot about honing rods and cutting boards. what would be a good accompaniment to the FKM/DP?


You want sharpening stones rather than a honing rod. So with a western knife, the steel is a bit softer and the edge rolls off centre as you use it, so you use a honing rod to get it back in line. The honing rod can also remove a little steel, so it gets a light sharpen as well. The harder fine edge of a J knife doesn't move so easily, and also can't be just pushed back so easily, so there's no point using a honing rod. Also, the honing rod wouldn't remove much steel from a hard J knife (unless you include chipping), so it won't sharpen either. Instead you want stones:

Long term you want 3 stones:
For rough sharpening, removing chips, restoring very dull blades (say 200 - 500 grit) - you won't need this for ages.
For normal sharpening, stones from 700 to 2000 grit.
To take off the fine scratches and the burr left by coarser stones, and to polish the surface, you can use stones starting at around 2000 grit.

An affordable option would be the King 1000 / 6000 combination stone. So it's two stones, stuck together, and all you need.


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## daveb (Jul 25, 2017)

tsuriru said:


> I have been following this thread, and there are some very good points made here. I would like to add the following:
> 
> Cheap mass produced kitchen knives are usually made of inferior materials, with almost no intention of providing a long lasting service life....
> 
> :2cents:



Well said Tsuriu


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## sharptools (Jul 25, 2017)

keithsaltydog said:


> If willing to spend a little more add Fujiwara FKM to your list. It is mono steel stainless with good grind & rather thin tip. Then get a cheap King stone for around 25.00. Some good free sharpening video's will put you towards sharp knives. Knowing how to put an edge on your nice knife will keep it cutting well.



Salty is completely right here. The FKM is better than the Tojiro in a number of ways. if you can score a cheap Tojiro on BST then great. But if you're going to bump your budget, then you should get the FKM over the Tojiro


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## chinacats (Jul 25, 2017)

Wait until Metalmaster red rocks and grab a 190 Tanaka gyuto for less than 60 bucks with shipping.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 25, 2017)

Thanks everyone, I'll see what I can get. Also didn't expect to spending on the appropriate cutting board, but it'll be worth it I'm sure. :nicethread:


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 25, 2017)

@Tsuriru but every kitchen needs cheap knives that you don't care about damaging TOO


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## tsuriru (Jul 25, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Tsuriru but every kitchen needs cheap knives that you don't care about damaging TOO



lack of care..... what can I say? :surrendar:

On second thought you are right. Every kitchen needs those. They make great permanent storage fixtures in many a fine drawers in many a fine kitchens Im sure. These are the ones that no one cares about until they slip while trying to open a frozen pack of hamburgers stuck together, then plow into your hand. You are right - obviously every kitchen requires a good medical emergency every so often. :biggrin:


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## DaveInMesa (Jul 25, 2017)

tsuriru said:


> lack of care..... what can I say? :surrendar:
> 
> On second thought you are right. Every kitchen needs those. They make great permanent storage fixtures in many a fine drawers in many a fine kitchens Im sure. These are the ones that no one cares about until they slip while trying to open a frozen pack of hamburgers stuck together, then plow into your hand. You are right - obviously every kitchen requires a good medical emergency every so often. :biggrin:


I know better but, the way you phrased that, it sounds like you're saying it would be better to use a high quality knife to pry apart those frozen hamburger patties. 

And a lot of people have been overlooking the original intent, which is to buy the best "beater" available for short money because, no matter what he buys, his room/house mates will trash it. In my view, given the circumstances, I think he's actually better off sticking with a German stainless steel knife, because they can take the abuse better than a good j-knife can. He can get a good knife when his living situation changes, and it's safe to do so.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 25, 2017)

DaveInMesa said:


> I know better but, the way you phrased that, it sounds like you're saying it would be better to use a high quality knife to pry apart those frozen hamburger patties.
> 
> And a lot of people have been overlooking the original intent, which is to buy the best "beater" available for short money because, no matter what he buys, his room/house mates will trash it. In my view, given the circumstances, I think he's actually better off sticking with a German stainless steel knife, because they can take the abuse better than a good j-knife can. He can get a good knife when his living situation changes, and it's safe to do so.



This pretty much. Although I don't think they'll trash my knife, they won't take care of it as much as I would, as the owner. There's also justifying the cost depending how much I cook, and I haven't been able to cook much in the past months. 

Then there's also a bit of overhead cost in needing a soft wood board since plastic boards are not ideal for j-knives. Unless I'm wrong, I could use some new advice.


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## labor of love (Jul 25, 2017)

No, you might as well use a poly board. Pretty much any knife you pick at this price will have durable steel and function just fine with a poly board.


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## DaveInMesa (Jul 25, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> This pretty much. Although I don't think they'll trash my knife, they won't take care of it as much as I would, as the owner. There's also justifying the cost depending how much I cook, and I haven't been able to cook much in the past months.
> 
> Then there's also a bit of overhead cost in needing a soft wood board since plastic boards are not ideal for j-knives. Unless I'm wrong, I could use some new advice.



Actually, a soft board is better for ALL knives. Hard j-knives chip if used roughly on hard boards. Softer German knives dull quickly on hard boards.


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## tsuriru (Jul 25, 2017)

DaveInMesa said:


> I know better but, the way you phrased that, it sounds like you're saying it would be better to use a high quality knife to pry apart those frozen hamburger patties.
> 
> And a lot of people have been overlooking the original intent, which is to buy the best "beater" available for short money because, no matter what he buys, his room/house mates will trash it. In my view, given the circumstances, I think he's actually better off sticking with a German stainless steel knife, because they can take the abuse better than a good j-knife can. He can get a good knife when his living situation changes, and it's safe to do so.



You are right. I guess what I was trying to say was that if all the roommates pulled together and got a better knife perhaps each user would think twice before destroying it. Perhaps care would be taken to defrost rather than pry, cut on wood rather than glass or ceramic, or stone, etc. It's a win win when folks take care. Care is very important. Kitchen is cleaner, knives are well maintained, food looks better, probably tastes better, folks dont hurt themselves. See my point? This is not about a knife - any kind of knife. It's about a communal effort to follow certain time honored habits that mainly have an upside to them. Of course....it requires that folks "get with the program, and calibrate their expectations" and that is a human prerequisite and has nothing to do with the kitchen or the knife or the cutting board.


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## DaveInMesa (Jul 25, 2017)

labor of love said:


> No, you might as well use a poly board. Pretty much any knife you pick at this price will have durable steel and function just fine with a poly board.



Yeah. What he said


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## DaveInMesa (Jul 25, 2017)

tsuriru said:


> You are right. I guess what I was trying to say was that if all the roommates pulled together and got a better knife perhaps each user would think twice before destroying it.



You know, that's a good idea. I wonder if they'd be up for it.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 25, 2017)

they're not as meticulous as I am, so I wouldn't put it on them to take care of it.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 25, 2017)

@Tsusiru Prying apart frozen food, cutting very cold or hot (think straight out of the deep fryer or pan!) ingredients, opening packaging, 
shaving nuts/chocolate/palm sugar, peeling sandy vegetables, butchery... these are legit kitchen tasks, but are these tasks where you suggest an expensive and delicate knife is in the right place?


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## tsuriru (Jul 25, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Tsusiru Prying apart frozen food, cutting very cold or hot (think straight out of the deep fryer or pan!) ingredients, opening packaging,
> shaving nuts/chocolate/palm sugar, peeling sandy vegetables, butchery... these are legit kitchen tasks, but are these tasks where you suggest an expensive and delicate knife is in the right place?



Of course not. I am suggesting that it's all about the human element. Me? I use my knife for all of it. If it can't survive someone like me it has no business being called a kitchen knife in the first place. Having said this, I do TAKE CARE to follow certain rules. And these rules are true for a $1 knife as much as for a $8000 knife. It can be an expensive knife or an inexpensive knife and it could take more or less of a beating - but there is a difference between heavy or "unaccustomed" usage and abuse or neglect. There are never any excuses for abuse or neglect, and cheapness has a tendency to get real expensive real fast especially with a "bang for buck for under $40" mind set. This is EXACTLY the mind set that the market likes to keep it's consumers in. And nothing ever changes unless that change comes from how we perceive "bang for buck" and "real worth".


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 25, 2017)

I'm glad my thread went 10 pages into saying $40 stainless steel knives are garbo.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 25, 2017)

@tsuriru don't forget that people that do not understand concepts like hardening consider a knife just "a few 100 grams of metal machined/cast into a certain shape" - which doesn't make it much different from a tin can in their eyes.

What we probably agree on is that a Kiwi or IKEA 365+ maintained perfectly will serve well in a kitchen - given these ARE hardened knives made of knife steel and not real knife-shaped objects.


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## tsuriru (Jul 25, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> What we probably agree on is that a Kiwi or IKEA 365+ maintained perfectly will serve well in a kitchen - given these ARE hardened knives made of knife steel and not real knife-shaped objects.



I agree. But there will be very little joy in it.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 26, 2017)

My friends got me a *walnut magnetic knife holder*, is there going to be a big issue? I'm reading walnut can be soft or hard. If that's the case, I might just go and get a maplewood one.


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## labor of love (Jul 26, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> My friends got me a *walnut magnetic knife holder*, is there going to be a big issue? I'm reading walnut can be soft or hard. If that's the case, I might just go and get a maplewood one.



Can you return it and use the funds towards a nicer knife?


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 26, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Can you return it and use the funds towards a nicer knife?



I don't think that's the point.

I'm not saying I have $40 in my pocket, what can I get with it? 

I'm just asking a technical(ish) question. It's not like I'm not listening to you guys about the j-knives, I've already decided on getting one of the "entry-level" ones.


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## labor of love (Jul 26, 2017)

Can't help you with the magnetic knife question. My point is that a nicer knife would take precedence over things like magnetic knife holders and cutting board upgrades.


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## Matus (Jul 26, 2017)

That is a nice holder and will serve you well - very thoughtful of your friends. It will give you much less chance that the knife will find itself in a drawer mixed with other kitchen utensils.

I think the summary of the 10 pages is that $40 will give you just a so-so knife - either a very basic Japanese/Chinese carbon blade with uncertain origin, or a mass produced knife for western market (Vic, etc.). Nothing wrong with either of that, but you can not really expect a quality product that was geared towards someone who appreciates good knives. In the next price category - say under $100 you will find some basic but good quality quality Japanese blades (Zakuri, Tanaka or similar, ) and mass produced knives like Tojiro DP or some nice knives via BST. Go past $100 and things will start to get interesting as you will enter realm of knives like Itinomonn or Gesshin Uraku - simple, but very well made knives from reputable sellers, knives that were made and designed to perform and impress


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## Nemo (Jul 26, 2017)

+1. Very thoughtful and well considered summary.


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## daveb (Jul 26, 2017)

I like it.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 26, 2017)

@Tsuriru The OP already got the most "joy for cheap" that he could get with the Thai knives - cheap, simple and maintenance intensive as they are, these are meant and used by the Thais to cook Thai food (look at video footage of Thai street food and other cooks - these brands really get used), an activity in which there is definitely joy*. There is simply a different spirit in them than some western cheapos marketed with a condescending "homemakers aren't chefs, they won't know the difference" attitude behind them...

*Yes, maybe I am romanticizing here. So? It is probably the one "foreign" cuisine that is most accepted "made as it is", without needing (but allowing!) "elevation" to have half the world agree it's great 

But then, there would be the same spirit in someone making some great american food with a cheap typical american knife - but wouldn't we consider a forgecraft, dexter russell, uh oh probably cutco.. ... at least a better fit here than cheap import of the week?


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## tsuriru (Jul 26, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Tsuriru The OP already got the most "joy for cheap" that he could get with the Thai knives - cheap, simple and maintenance intensive as they are, these are meant and used by the Thais to cook Thai food (look at video footage of Thai street food and other cooks - these brands really get used), an activity in which there is definitely joy*. There is simply a different spirit in them than some western cheapos marketed with a condescending "homemakers aren't chefs, they won't know the difference" attitude behind them...
> 
> *Yes, maybe I am romanticizing here. So? It is probably the one "foreign" cuisine that is most accepted "made as it is", without needing (but allowing!) "elevation" to have half the world agree it's great
> 
> But then, there would be the same spirit in someone making some great american food with a cheap typical american knife - but wouldn't we consider a forgecraft, dexter russell, uh oh probably cutco.. ... at least a better fit here than cheap import of the week?



I was talking about the joy of sharpening and maintenance on "those knives" - not if people who use them cook from the heart. I think food cooked from the heart can never be mistaken for what it really is - no matter what kind of knife was used to prepare it.


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## killerfrenzi (Jul 26, 2017)

Matus said:


> That is a nice holder and will serve you well - very thoughtful of your friends. It will give you much less chance that the knife will find itself in a drawer mixed with other kitchen utensils.
> 
> I think the summary of the 10 pages is that $40 will give you just a so-so knife - either a very basic Japanese/Chinese carbon blade with uncertain origin, or a mass produced knife for western market (Vic, etc.). Nothing wrong with either of that, but you can not really expect a quality product that was geared towards someone who appreciates good knives. In the next price category - say under $100 you will find some basic but good quality quality Japanese blades (Zakuri, Tanaka or similar, ) and mass produced knives like Tojiro DP or some nice knives via BST. Go past $100 and things will start to get interesting as you will enter realm of knives like Itinomonn or Gesshin Uraku - simple, but very well made knives from reputable sellers, knives that were made and designed to perform and impress



Yeah this pretty much sums it up. The $100+ knives are BEAUTIFUL. I would love to own one somewhere further down the line when I can appreciate the mid/high-tier knives. But for now I'll get to enjoy a Tojiro DP.

My main goal with this thread was to find a knife I can appreciate for every $1 spent, with low diminishing returns. Thanks for understanding


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## trilby (Jul 26, 2017)

Flea markets / night markets and of course Ebay


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 4, 2017)

At the risk of looking like a fool, is this* listing on ebay *legitimate Fujiwara FKM 240mm?

Are all the King 1000/6000 stones are good for either Fujiwara and Tojiro? I see different listing popping up but I'm assuming they're all the same?

EDIT: Looks like it might be since the seller is reputable in a google search. But could anyone else confirm what I'm looking at is what I want?

EDIT2: I looked up the wrong seller. Not too sure about "japan_quality"


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 4, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> At the risk of looking like a fool, is this* listing on ebay *legitimate Fujiwara FKM 240mm?
> 
> Are all the King 1000/6000 stones are good for either Fujiwara and Tojiro? I see different listing popping up but I'm assuming they're all the same?
> 
> EDIT: Looks like it might be since the seller is reputable in a google search. But could anyone else confirm what I'm looking at is what I want?



It appears to be a 240 mm Fujiwara FKM. Is that what you are wanting?

JCK has the same knife listed for $83, plus $7 EMS shipping that will get to your door usually in three days and has tracking. The eBay vendor you linked to is $11 cheaper, but the free shipping is SAL which can take three *weeks* (or more) to get to you and does not have tracking. 

Your choice.


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 4, 2017)

I'm okay with the wait since I have a ebay card to use to make the FKM 240mm out to $64. I'm just concerned if this is a fake, etc. 

Looks like the seller only sells 2 brands and is terrible at listing. I'm leaning towards legit.


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## daveb (Aug 4, 2017)

Seems legit? And if he's not then you're likely without recourse. If knife is hosed, you're without recourse. If knife gets damaged or lost, you're without recourse.

A Forest Gump line is coming to mind. Don't think it's the one about chocolate.


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 4, 2017)

there are a couple applicable lines, but I'm taking it as 'run forrest run'


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## daveb (Aug 4, 2017)

Not the one I was thinking about - but it is applicable.


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## Chef_ (Aug 5, 2017)

I think i found just what youre looking for.


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## panda (Aug 5, 2017)

that looks painful to use, like accelerated carpal tunnel inducing painful


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 5, 2017)

That's the FKM. There is a reason it is considered a good intro. to Japanese knives, it has a good grind with better steel than a Victorinox. The Tojiro DP gets more press, it too is a decent blade at the price. I like the grind better on the mono steel FKM. 

Agree with most here that 40.00 or less knives are for the masses, harder to sharpen, sub par edge retention, and little attention to edge geometry. See a lot of culinary students with Walmart type knives. Getting most to pay over 100.00 for one knife is a challenge. Sharpen knives for people mostly word of mouth, almost all are mass produced knives. I have a system can put a sharp edge on cheap stainless quickly. 

A majority of people use cheap knives with pull through sharpeners. Most all do not know what a truly sharp edge is. You can cut food with semi sharp or dull knives, but why would you want to. To buy a good starter Japanese knife and to learn freehand will put you in a different world, sharp edges without needing someone else or a pull through device.


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 5, 2017)

Yeah I'm trying to decide between the Tojiro DP and FKM atm. I did read that I could get micro chipping on the Tojiro cutting butternut squash and raw beets.. I don't eat hard squash often but I do like beets and I didn't see anything in regards to the FKM and how it compares in this regard.

I'm assuming a King 1000/6000 stone is adequate for both knives?

Would 240mm be a better option if I plan to cut leafy veggies often?


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## Triggaaar (Aug 5, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> I did read that I could get micro chipping on the Tojiro cutting butternut squash and raw beets.


That's not a fault of the Tojiro, that's applicable to any hard knife you put a thin edge on.


> I'm assuming a King 1000/6000 stone is adequate for both knives?


Yes.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 5, 2017)

The King 1000/6000 is great for most any knife, as long as you are still in the phase where you are obsessed with sharpening, it sharpens great but needs ritual and maintenance: it is a soaking stone that needs extremely frequent flattening, and that makes far too much mess to use casually in a kitchen - this is something to use on a sink bridge or workbench.


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 5, 2017)

Is there a splash stone at the same price? 

I only said the King one by one recommendation, not sure about any other stones


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## scott.livesey (Aug 5, 2017)

take a look at this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Larger-Vint...582919?hash=item544b3da0c7:g:50wAAOSwfIxZaa0C this ebay store has a pretty good selection in your price range


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2017)

Between the two, I'd suggest getting the fkm. The tojiro really needs some work out of the box (thinning) to get it to perform as well.


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## Ruso (Aug 5, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Yeah I'm trying to decide between the Tojiro DP and FKM atm. I did read that I could get micro chipping on the Tojiro cutting butternut squash and raw beets.. I don't eat hard squash often but I do like beets and I didn't see anything in regards to the FKM and how it compares in this regard.



I don't have FKM, but Tojiro DP is mediocre at best. I think FKM should be better quality/price wise.


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## DanDan (Aug 5, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Is there a splash stone at the same price?
> 
> I only said the King one by one recommendation, not sure about any other stones



re: the eBay seller, at 100% feedback I think they're pretty trustworthy. With that said it's up to you whether you can wait a month for your knife.

If I were in your shoes I'd get one medium stone for now and practice sharpening on that until picking something else up. It's a little bit more than the King 1/6k, but the Shapton Kuromaku 1000 can be had for a good price and it's fully splash and go.


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 5, 2017)

chinacats said:


> Between the two, I'd suggest getting the fkm. The tojiro really needs some work out of the box (thinning) to get it to perform as well.



It seems like between the two, most forums veer towards the FKM.

What are the practical differences in terms of care and use, or it really doesn't matter? And is anything from 4000 to 6000 good for this purpose? 

Is the 6000 side used like a honing rod would be used, be the medium side for getting the edge?


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## Chef_ (Aug 5, 2017)

Ruso said:


> I don't have FKM, but Tojiro DP is mediocre at best. I think FKM should be better quality/price wise.



i bought the Tojiro just to have a semi-beater at my disposal, but man is it a bummer to use. I havent tried thinning it yet.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 6, 2017)

Dan suggested the 1K Shapton that is a reasonable priced S&G the plastic case doubles as a stone holder. I have the Shapton Pro 2K it is very dish resistant & will put a sharp edge on your knife. It is a true S&G just run some water on it & ready to go.

The King 1K is cheap around 25.00 it will dish easy & needs to be soaked. It does have good feedback & will get your blade sharp. Because of the feedback it is good for beginning sharpeners will raise a even burr quickly.

You do not need a bunch of stones for a gyuto a 1K stone will put a sharp functional edge on your knife. A lot of people here are sharpening junkies & like many stones. 

The main thing is that you get a stone and watch some videos on how to sharpen.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 6, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> It seems like between the two, most forums veer towards the FKM.



I've owned both, and my recommendation is the Fujiwara FKM. I had to be talked into selling my FKM, while I sold the Tojiro without a second thought. Why? First, the need to thin the Tojiro out of the box, which has been mentioned. Second, the soft cladding of the Tojiro shows every scratch and it doesn't take long before it looks like crap. The FKM is fine OOTB and the monosteel construction will look good months or years down the road.

Rick


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## panda (Aug 6, 2017)

Neither fkm or tojiro are under $40. Has this become an entirely new discussion?

I would very much like to know if there is a hidden gem out there. There's gotta be someone who has done a comparison of the cheapies??


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## TurboScooter (Aug 6, 2017)

I have never owned, used, or even handled an FKM, but I think the 240 and 270 Tojrio DP are really underwhelming out of the box. If you're willing to invest time and effort into them, okay, but I would never be happy with using them as they come. But once you put a bunch of time and effort into it then it doesn't feel so much like a "beater" anymore.

I think the Tramontinas are some of the best cheapies around. The plastic handle is grippy even when wet, they sharpen up fine, they're completely usable performance wise and cheap as hell.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 6, 2017)

panda said:


> Neither fkm or tojiro are under $40. Has this become an entirely new discussion?
> 
> I would very much like to know if there is a hidden gem out there. There's gotta be someone who has done a comparison of the cheapies??



Well he might spend a little more. The Victorinox 8" Rosewood is 39.99 on Amazon. I know some like those molded plastic handles, I don't. Often the shapes are wonky, to much plastic over the spine often results in neglected heel sharpening. Even worse the molding is too close to the bottom of the heel which means over time no heel at all because of the massive plastic where it should not be.

Good luck bottom fishing for 40.00 or less chef knives. The Rosewood Vic. is about the best at 40.00 that I know of. It can be sharpened over & over. Edge retention not a strong point. Maybe those Kiwi knives I have never used one.

For a little extra coin the FKM is a good choice. Any knife you get needs sharpening so need a stone too.


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 7, 2017)

keithsaltydog said:


> Well he might spend a little more. The Victorinox 8" Rosewood is 39.99 on Amazon. I know some like those molded plastic handles, I don't. Often the shapes are wonky, to much plastic over the spine often results in neglected heel sharpening. Even worse the molding is too close to the bottom of the heel which means over time no heel at all because of the massive plastic where it should not be.
> 
> Good luck bottom fishing for 40.00 or less chef knives. The Rosewood Vic. is about the best at 40.00 that I know of. It can be sharpened over & over. Edge retention not a strong point. Maybe those Kiwi knives I have never used one.
> 
> For a little extra coin the FKM is a good choice. Any knife you get needs sharpening so need a stone too.



Yep I stretched my budget and went for a FKM.

Now i'm just looking for a reasonable splash and go stone.


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## Ruso (Aug 7, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> Yep I stretched my budget and went for a FKM.
> 
> Now i'm just looking for a reasonable splash and go stone.



Congrats.
What is your budget for a reasonable stone?


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 7, 2017)

I was hoping $30 since the King combo stone can be had for that. I got some room to play though


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Aug 7, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> I was hoping $30 since the King combo stone can be had for that. I got some room to play though



I don't think you'll beat that on price. Lots of people use King stones and get results they're happy with, but around here it seems like most people prefer more expensive stones with better characteristics.

There are a number of recent threads in sharpening section about stones to start that you may want to browse for ideas. E.g: "Please recommend a set of stones for beginner with Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji - UK" and "Recommend a beginner stone."

IIRC- the cheapest other combo stone recommended was the "Suehiro Rika #5000 / Cerax #1000 stone" from Tools from Japan. The Rika 5000 is one KKF's long-term go to finishing stones, but I notice he also has other "Suehiro Cerax combo stones" (at page bottom), for not too much.


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## milkbaby (Aug 7, 2017)

killerfrenzi said:


> I was hoping $30 since the King combo stone can be had for that. I got some room to play though



If $30 is your budget, then the King combo stone is probably impossible to beat.


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## chinacats (Aug 7, 2017)

Get the King and spend the extra on something to keep it flat. It dishes more than most but a piece of granite or glass and some drywall screen will do the trick. A stone that is not flat will make it near impossible to get a good edge.


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## Ruso (Aug 7, 2017)

chinacats said:


> Get the King and spend the extra on something to keep it flat. It dishes more than most but a piece of granite or glass and some drywall screen will do the trick. A stone that is not flat will make it near impossible to get a good edge.



+1, but tell this to Murray C.  
[video=youtube;ozZF2EgnYm0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozZF2EgnYm0[/video]


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## killerfrenzi (Aug 7, 2017)

To my understanding, the King stone dishes but that helps a beginner learning how to knife sharpen.

But knowing me, I'd probably prefer a SplashnGo since having to soak for ~15 mins will deter me from sharpening my knife.

There's a couple of King stones, is this the go to? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DT1X9O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## chinacats (Aug 7, 2017)

That one will work fine. Just realize that it is somewhat smaller in length and width than some of the more expensive stones. As to it helping to learn to sharpen? It will help you learn to flatten 

My actual suggestion would be something that is more of a finisher (actually the 6k side of the King is rather nice but again, a bit small) and stick with that until you get the hang of what you're doing...you won't need the 1k side for a while or very often.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 9, 2017)

Yeh watch some Carter sharpening videos they are entertaining. One option if you get a soaker, I even use it on S&G is a spray bottle with water to mist your stones. Ace hardware sells the quality small size spray bottle for a few bucks. It is an efficient & cheap to keep your stones hydrated.

A stone like the King you can perma soak. If you just have one stone a small plastic container Keep mine covered with snap lid in the garage. Sharpen quite a bit so water gets changed often.

If you are space limited the Shapton link 1K stone earlier in this thread is a good option.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 9, 2017)

@keithsaltydog IIRC there was something about not permasoaking the 1k/6k combination due to the 6k side, or am I out of context here?


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