# TF Customer, No More



## ashy2classy (Jul 5, 2018)

I know this is like the 948th thread about the poor QC of TF knives, and I'm sure nobody really cares, but I wanted to share a recent transaction I had with the TF shop to kinda vent and ask if anyone else has had an experience like this? Sorry for the LOOOONNGG post.

About two months ago I sent a question via the website to see if the shop could make a 225mm version of one of their gyutos. I promptly received an answer that they had a 225mm x 50mm Maboroshi available and sent multiple photos to show me the blade. Aside from the thicker tip and unpolished spine, I thought it was worth a shot because I liked the specs and profile.





A few weeks later the knife arrived and when I picked it up I immediately knew it wasn't right. Something didn't look correct when I held it in my hand on the cutting board. After further inspection I saw a very noticable bend in the blade.





In hopes of receiving a refund, I decided not to use the knife to see if the bend affected the way the blade cut.

I emailed back to the thread I had been using to procure the knife to ask if they would accept the knife back for a refund. Below is that email thread...



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Bryner
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 9:59 AM
> To: Fujiwara Teruyasu
> ...



The shop graciously replied and said they would take a look and let me know after receiving the knife.



> From: [email protected]
> Sent: 2018-06-23 8:02:43 PM
> Subject: [Fujiwara Teruyasu] Shipping Notification (Gyuto225)
> 
> ...



I emailed about my concern that they'd consider this "normal" and not provide a refund and I'd be out the money to ship it back.



> On 2018/06/25 9:05, KEVIN wrote:Thank you for your reply. This situation is not just varying thickness in the spine. You can see in the photo I sent that the last 1/3 of the blade is bent to the left. If it wasn't the blade would lay flat against the surface instead of being above it. I purchase your knives because I very much like the rustic finish and high performance so it's not because I expect art.
> 
> I will send the knife back, but I'm worried you will somehow consider there's nothing wrong with it. Will I receive a refund when you receive the knife?
> 
> ...



Gaku kindly replied that they would provide a refund if there were "obvious defects".



> On June 24, 2018 at 9:23 PM Fujiwara Teruyasu <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Hello Kevin,
> 
> ...



I sent the knife back, paying over $60 to ship it with insurance. Not happy about that, but USPS won't insure packages sent via first class international so I had no choice but to pay for priority shipping. I tried to express my expectations about this...



> Mailed the knife this morning. Shipping info is
> 
> It cost me $60 to ship it insured. I would hope most or all of that is reimbursed as I should have never been sent the knife as is. I also don't want a repaired knife. I'd prefer to receive a refund as I'm not 100% certain the repair will leave the knife in the shape it should be had it been made correctly the first time.
> 
> ...



About a week later they received the knife. And as expected, this was their reply...



> From: [email protected]
> Sent: 2018-07-03 4:53:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Fujiwara Teruyasu] Shipping Notification (Gyuto225)
> 
> ...



After seeing that I wasn't crazy and the blade was indeed bent, I asked again about being reimbursed for the shipping.



> Thanks for your quick response. While I very much enjoy your knives, I'd like one that is straight so in this case I'll accept the refund. I'd hope you refund some or all of my $60 return shipping costs as well because the blade was bent and probably shouldn't have been sent to me in the first place.
> 
> Please let me know how you're going to proceed.
> 
> ...



Again this was refused. Apparently I should have never expected it. But this last email was the most frustrating. Gaku was very courteous throughout our conversation, but apparently my repeated requests for shipping reimbursement was upsetting.



> Hello Kevin,
> 
> Again, our perception is that this is not a defective item.
> There is no reason why we have to pay for returning cost.
> ...



I know it's only $60, but that's almost 1/6 of the cost of the knife. I'm probably making too big of a deal out of this and should just forget about it and move on, but as it's been said in the past, I find it amazing that TF considers it acceptable to send knives like this to their customers.


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## RDalman (Jul 5, 2018)

That sucks. Sorry to see. The knife is so thick there's no reason for them to expect you or the shipping did this. And while I can 100% understand this happens (san mai can bend and warp like crazy while grinding) I would never dream of that approach to a customer. Sure handmade can be handmade, but at the premium we as makers charge (in relation to factory made), we should imo make sure customer is always happy.


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## Choppin (Jul 5, 2018)

That's terrible, sorry to hear. There's a line between (i) wabisabi / handmade imperfections and (ii) defective. I'm surprised that the maker's line is more blurred than ours. 

Anyway that reinforces what has already been said here - want a TF, get it either from a western retailer or in-shop in Japan.


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## RDalman (Jul 5, 2018)

Just a clarification, I mean I understand it happens, not it getting sold


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## Gjackson98 (Jul 5, 2018)

Yep, and this review is probably going to cost them a lot more than $60. 
At least after reading this review I will not make a purchase from them, I have no interests in doing business with people that care so minimum about their reputation (unless is like some killer deals!!! )


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## Mucho Bocho (Jul 5, 2018)

What a bunch of rubbish. I'd just refuse charges from your credit card company. Let TF deal with them.


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## Gjackson98 (Jul 5, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> What a bunch of rubbish. I'd just refuse charges from your credit card company. Let TF deal with them.



I think in his case, the $60 was was paid to the shipping carrier, so pulling it back probably won’t hit TF.


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## toddnmd (Jul 5, 2018)

Kevin, sorry to hear about your troubles. I've considered a TF gyuto for awhile, but always hesitated due to quality control issues. Your experience further reinforces those concerns.
It's all the more frustrating because that looked like a great length and profile. 
I'm glad you shared your experience as a warning to others.
Looking back, do you think it would have been better to try cutting with it to see how it performed? I know that's risky in some ways, I was just curious about your thoughts.


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## XooMG (Jul 5, 2018)

To some people, a knife that arrives bent is only as much trouble as a knife that arrives dull or with a mild overgrind at the heel, a birdbeak tip, or a slightly wonky handle install.

Sorry to hear the experience went poorly.


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## labor of love (Jul 5, 2018)

Yet another reason why I’ll only consider purchasing TF through a vendor.


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## ashy2classy (Jul 5, 2018)

Thanks for all the kind words - the situation is obviously not that bad and I'm certainly not whining about it. But I wanted to get a sense of whether this has happened to others and how the transaction was handled. Gaku was very courteous and accepted the return, but as a TF fan the experience just left a bad taste in my mouth.



toddnmd said:


> Kevin, sorry to hear about your troubles. I've considered a TF gyuto for awhile, but always hesitated due to quality control issues. Your experience further reinforces those concerns.
> It's all the more frustrating because that looked like a great length and profile.
> I'm glad you shared your experience as a warning to others.
> Looking back, do you think it would have been better to try cutting with it to see how it performed? I know that's risky in some ways, I was just curious about your thoughts.



I liked the knife enough that I considered keeping it, but I knew seeing a bend in the blade would bug the sh*t out of me every time I used it. It may not be a big deal to some, but I'm OCD about these things and I probably wouldn't have been able to let it go. 



XooMG said:


> To some people, a knife that arrives bent is only as much trouble as a knife that arrives dull or with a mild overgrind at the heel, a birdbeak tip, or a slightly wonky handle install.
> 
> Sorry to hear the experience went poorly.



I'm sure to others it could be ignored or fixed rather easily, but it wasn't worth the risk for me to attemp to bend the blade for fear of ruining it. Maybe it's easier than I thought. According to TF it was bent to make the edge straight so bending it back would make it worse, if what Gaku says is true. *SHRUG*


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## swarth (Jul 5, 2018)

I'm not sure I see a defect either...


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## labor of love (Jul 5, 2018)

swarth said:


> I'm not sure I see a defect either...


The shadow underneath the blade is a good indicator of where and how bent it is. Notice how much larger the shadow is close to the tip, also how the tip is raised up from the cutting board but the spine closer to the heel is resting on the cutting board. It’s hard sometimes to capture in in photos.


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## Paraffin (Jul 5, 2018)

ashy2classy said:


> the situation is obviously not that bad and I'm certainly not whining about it. But I wanted to get a sense of whether this has happened to others and how the transaction was handled.



I had a situation like that. Bought a knife from that place that isn't mentioned here but starts with the letter "C" and it arrived with a noticeable bend at the tip. It was probably shipping damage, with a big hole poked in the cardboard box that could have caused the bend. I contacted the seller (owner of the company) by email with photos of the bend. He said I could either return it for a refund or replacement, or try bending it myself at no risk if I damaged the knife in the process. He'd take it back either way.

It was an AS knife with iron san mai damascus, and he said these were usually easy to bend. He sent a link to a YouTube video, and I had already started researching how to do it, just in case. 

So I tried it, holding the blade against a wooden table, with a block of wood at the bend point, gently lifting against the block with repeated motions until it straightened out perfectly. I'm not sure that would work with other steels like PM stainless. At any rate, it ended up being a good lesson for carbon steel knife repair, if I ever have to do this with another knife later on.

So in my case it worked out, and I was happy with the support from the seller. This was a local (in-country) transaction though, where the cost of returning the knife would be minimal. Either way, I wasn't going to live with a bent tip on a brand new $200 knife. I don't think that's being OCD. For that kind of money and a new knife, we should expect a straight blade from the maker or retailer.


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## kkat (Jul 5, 2018)

Sorry to hear about your negative experience with TF.
Depending how adventurous you are, there may be a (DIY) fix to the bend. 

As you may know, there's a wooden tool sold in Japan for straighten blades out. Tsukiyama, an online shop in Japan, calls it a hizumitori bou (歪み取り棒). 
Here's a blogger's review (in Japanese). These two sites show some variations of the fixer: No. 1 , No. 2

If you want to sign up for a forwarding service (e.g., rakuten global express, tenso, etc.) you can buy straight form Tsukiyama. However, if you have some woodworking skills or know someone who can help, making your own seems like a pretty feasible project. It may be worth the email/phone call to Jon at JKI to see if he imports them. 

Good luck!


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## inzite (Jul 5, 2018)

i see the bend too, unfortunate experience - buying TF is always done best in person. Or ask for numerous photos during the process to ensure what you think is what you get. I've order twice online after buying 2 other in person and so far it's no surprises.


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## swarth (Jul 5, 2018)

labor of love said:


> The shadow underneath the blade is a good indicator of where and how bent it is. Notice how much larger the shadow is close to the tip, also how the tip is raised up from the cutting board but the spine closer to the heel is resting on the cutting board. It’s hard sometimes to capture in in photos.



I'd have to see the edge.


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## Anton (Jul 5, 2018)

yikes 
Hence the value of buying through reliable retailers like JKI, Maksim.... Never hear these stories with anything from there...


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## labor of love (Jul 5, 2018)

Anton said:


> yikes
> Hence the value of buying through reliable retailers like JKI, Maksim.... Never hear these stories with anything from there...


A co worker of mine actually bent my gengetsu. I sent it to Jon and he just fixed it for free.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 5, 2018)

Ashy, I can understand your frustration with the situation...
but your loss on this transaction was 15% of its face value.

There are alot bigger monetary losses out there on knives 
and stones just waiting to be had.

That all being said, there is nothing
worse than feeling "like you've been
taken advantage of", which Is why I think 
you're so upset more so than the math.


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## LucasFur (Jul 5, 2018)

Thats insane. 
I am starting to notice that when ever there is a request made, there is a problem with the knife. "tall please" - wedge grind // "225mm please" - bent // "flat profile" - overgrind. // "no handle" - grind steers


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## ashy2classy (Jul 5, 2018)

swarth said:


> I'd have to see the edge.



I was asked this when I first posted my disappointment on IG. Point is it's f*ckin bent, not whether the edge is straight. I don't pay for a knife with a straight edge, I pay for a knife with EVERYTHING straight. Not trying to argue, just to simplify whether it's considered a "defect" or not shouldn't come into play. Unfortunately this is acceptable to TF and as @Anton mentions, other vendors wouldn't let this happen in the first place. And while I would have certainly wanted to keep this one because I really dig everything about it, there are plenty of other vendors I'll happily support. Would be nice if @comet_sharp would ever get me on his list!!!!


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## ashy2classy (Jul 5, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Ashy, I can understand your frustration with the situation...
> but your loss on this transaction was 15% of its face value.
> 
> There are alot bigger monetary losses out there on knives
> ...



Most definitely. I tried to convey that I wasn't trying to whine about the money, but moreso that I had to deal with the hassle to ship it back in the first place because it was f*cked up from the beginning. I don't feel taken advantage of, just pissed that it was acceptable to send something like this to a customer and say it's "normal" so it's "not our fault" that you wanted to send it back. In the end I hope to be given a refund so that's fine, but I admit that I'm mad that this could have been prevented and I wouldn't be out any cash. 

I feel like I'm dragging this thread out so I apologize to those who are sick of the same old sh*t being written on this subject.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 5, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> Thats insane.
> I am starting to notice that when ever there is a request made, there is a problem with the knife...



I've noticed this too...


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## swarth (Jul 5, 2018)

All forged knives are bent...


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## daddy yo yo (Jul 5, 2018)

Sorry to hear just another bad TF experience. I once was in contact with them, we had a deal, and suddenly he backed out, although everything was agreed upon in writing... Anyway, no bad feelings, I am glad. Others gladly took my money and did not have quality issues...


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## parbaked (Jul 5, 2018)

I think there are also some cultural differences at play.
In Japan, customers rarely return products.
They just don't buy it again.
It's all about avoiding conflict.

I love my TF but I'm glad I got to pick it out.
I was in the TF shop in April and don't doubt they believe your bent knife cuts fine.
I had to sort through a pile of gyutos to find a "perfect" one.
I asked Gaku about the irregular looking grinds and bevels and if they'd be fixed by sharpening.
He insisted that all the knives are carefully optimized as is and would not benefit from an initial sharpening.
He said the forgings are irregular and they compensate for it during grinding and sharpening.
He insisted the knives all cut great but also said if customers want a perfect looking knife they should shop elsewhere.
Gaku basically gave you the same explanation:
_"The knives we handmade each has unique geometry, thickness, weight and any more.
Also, during production and before shipping, we repeat the adjustment "to improve usability" over and over.
So, even if it is slightly distorted or bent in appearance, it is the ingenious device for pleasantly cooking."
"The knives we handmade each has unique geometry, thickness, weight and any more.
Also, during production and before shipping, we repeat the adjustment "to improve usability" over and over.
So, even if it is slightly distorted or bent in appearance, it is the ingenious device for pleasantly cooking."_

It's almost like they blame you for not being able to get over the fact that the item you bought is not "perfect".
_"TF knives are only about performance and *wonkiness* must be accepted!"_

It's also interesting how they'd rather you try it before returning it while in the US it's better to return it in new condition.
Again there are cultural differences, they believe if you try the knife, you'll accept it.

You should be disappointed about the knife and frustrated about being out even $60.
That is not how customer service work in the US.

I'm only trying to shed some light on why TF might feel put out by a request to pay for return shipping.
It's a real loss of face because they honestly believe the knife works as it should in spite of the bend.
They feel they fulfilled their side of the transaction.

Unfortunately you have to write it off as a life lesson but celebrate how much time you're going to save in the future not thinking about TF TF TF TF TF TF TF TF.....


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## inzite (Jul 5, 2018)

parbaked said:


> I think there are also some cultural differences at play.
> In Japan, customers rarely return products.
> They just don't buy it again.
> It's all about avoiding conflict.
> ...



but it's important to note TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF! i echo everything you've mentioned about the cultural difference, i believe all of his domestic users buy his knives to really work it out in the kitchen and they care more about the edge retention, sharpness and cutting ability more than anything - I was there for just 1.5 hrs and saw 3 local people come in to drop off their knives and they look like a petty knife but started out as either a 240 or even a 270.


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## labor of love (Jul 5, 2018)

OP, out of curiosity how did your gyuto cost direct?


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## parbaked (Jul 5, 2018)

inzite said:


> I was there for just 1.5 hrs and saw 3 local people come in to drop off their knives and they look like a petty knife but started out as either a 240 or even a 270.



When I was there an older woman walked in with her knives for sharpening, including this worn down Mabo.






Note that they sharpen non TF knives too.


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## dwalker (Jul 5, 2018)

swarth said:


> All forged knives are bent...


+1. I think I've maybe had one forged knife that did not have a bend or twist and maybe I'm not looking at the one close enough. There are certainly degrees to this and a line must be drawn somewhere. I have only sent one knife back and that one was a honyaki that could not be straightened without the application of heat. Still waiting to see how it turns out.


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## wind88 (Jul 5, 2018)

I have ordered direct twice and so far so good. I find they were quite responsive with any questions and requests.


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## Timthebeaver (Jul 5, 2018)

TF = $hit since way back when (at least 2006). Hype train drivers can post whatever they want, but the fact of the matter is that no one used to buy them. End of.


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## parbaked (Jul 5, 2018)

Yes...not everyone appreciates the ingeniousness....


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## McMan (Jul 5, 2018)

Good blade, wonky handle vs. wonky blade, good handle.
I've been lucky to get the first option...
Mine from two years ago:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...a-knife.27844/?p=424689&viewfull=1#post424689


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## labor of love (Jul 5, 2018)

dwalker said:


> +1. I think I've maybe had one forged knife that did not have a bend or twist and maybe I'm not looking at the one close enough. There are certainly degrees to this and a line must be drawn somewhere. I have only sent one knife back and that one was a honyaki that could not be straightened without the application of heat. Still waiting to see how it turns out.


For me the line would be drawn at performance. The TF in question has a bend that would haunt me until I found a way to get it fixed. I suppose these things aren’t so obvious to everyone.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 5, 2018)

swarth said:


> I'd have to see the edge.



This. Did you take photos from the edge side (the most impt angle) as well as spine with the blade resting on both sides. There would be a noticeable deviation that would be easier to detect compared than a single photo from the spine. I had a knife shipped to me with an obvious deviation like you describe. Took several photos from both sides to illustrate the problem and informed the vendor who accepted its return.

Do you know why TF had this knife in stock. Its not a 210 or 240. Perhaps the reason for its existence might provide some clues as to why the knife has a defect. For example was it a 240 with a problem like a broken tip that was shortened but still with a slight bend.


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## dwalker (Jul 5, 2018)

labor of love said:


> For me the line would be drawn at performance. The TF in question has a bend that would haunt me until I found a way to get it fixed. I suppose these things aren’t so obvious to everyone.


Agreed. A bend in the spine may have zero negative effect on performance if the grind is true. I would venture to say that, more often than not, performance is a secondary requirement for a large segment of the Japanese knife buying population.......not that there is anything wrong with that.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 5, 2018)

parbaked said:


> Yes...not everyone appreciates the ingeniousness....


Like


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## ashy2classy (Jul 5, 2018)

swarth said:


> All forged knives are bent...



Ok ok, I give in.  I just looked at my Shigehiro and it's slightly bent too. Sorry for kinda lashing out. My greenness obviously shows. I never really took notice of them all not being straight until the TF. In my defense, however, none have been this apparent. So as I stated, it's probably not as bad as I thought. But the thread's point was more directed towards the transaction experience and not necessarily all about the knife itself. 

I didn't take the time to photograph the edge as I just wanted to send it back and not waste any time and potentially drop it or something.  In hindsight I would have definitely taken photos from other angles to verify the extremity of the bend.


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## dwalker (Jul 5, 2018)

ashy2classy said:


> Ok ok, I give in. [emoji14] I just looked at my Shigehiro and it's slightly bent too. Sorry for kinda lashing out. My greenness obviously shows. I never really took notice of them all not being straight until the TF. In my defense, however, none have been this apparent. So as I stated, it's probably not as bad as I thought. But the thread's point was more directed towards the transaction experience and not necessarily all about the knife itself.
> 
> I didn't take the time to photograph the edge as I just wanted to send it back and not waste any time and potentially drop it or something.  In hindsight I would have definitely taken photos from other angles to verify the extremity of the bend.


Don't beat yourself up. You probably did the right thing.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 5, 2018)

A bend would irritate me too and once seen cannot be unseen. That's why I returned the knife I received. I just checked my 4 TF's and all are straight so TF can make a straight blade. As mentioned earlier I'd be curious as to how they come to have this odd length in their inventory. Also odd the spine was not eased on a Maboroshi. They don't smooth the spine on the Denka as it would contrast with the forge Ku finish.


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## parbaked (Jul 5, 2018)

Definitely don't beat yourself up!


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## ashy2classy (Jul 5, 2018)

parbaked said:


> I think there are also some cultural differences at play.
> In Japan, customers rarely return products.
> They just don't buy it again.
> It's all about avoiding conflict.
> ...



This is a very good post and I agree completely. I was waiting for something to be written about this because I was thinking about it the entire time I was writing my post - that my bitching is mostly because our expectations are very different from the makers in Japan. Something I failed to mention - this was my 6th TF and my first five were all good so I've been very lucky, I guess. I really do like them a lot, but was taken aback by the tone of the last email, something I guess I should have seen as a typical reaction and not necessarily one that reflects TF's attitude towards its customers.



labor of love said:


> OP, out of curiosity how did your gyuto cost direct?



I paid between $335 and $350, I can't remember.



Corradobrit1 said:


> Like



 I tried to stay away from the language barrier. Clearly TF does a pretty good job with working with international buyers, something that probably couldn't be said about most US vendors where we tend to only speak our own language and expect everyone else to assimilate. I commend this trait of non-US vendors.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 5, 2018)

Did you notice anything odd with the cladding line towards the tip. Its hard to see in Gaku's photo. I have a feeling this was born a 240.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 5, 2018)

ashy2classy said:


> I tried to stay away from the language barrier. Clearly TF does a pretty good job with working with international buyers, something that probably couldn't be said about most US vendors where we tend to only speak our own language and expect everyone else to assimilate. I commend this trait of non-US vendors.



I bought two knives from a vendor/maker in Japan with a Japanese only website, relying solely on Google translate. Now that was a scary transaction but turned out surprisingly well in the end. Working with Gaku was a lot easier.


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## osakajoe (Jul 5, 2018)

Easy 5 second fix. 

You guys know how to fix a bend?

.... carefully bend it back. 

But yes. Buy through trusted vendors who mostly always catch these and fix them before they go out the store.


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## JBroida (Jul 5, 2018)

labor of love said:


> A co worker of mine actually bent my gengetsu. I sent it to Jon and he just fixed it for free.



Shhhh... don’t give out all my secrets [emoji13]


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## ashy2classy (Jul 5, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> Easy 5 second fix.
> 
> You guys know how to fix a bend?
> 
> ...



Without other photos, I can't be sure the bend was as simple as that. As Gaku mentioned, the bend may have been intentional to create a proper edge. I didn't check so that was my fault and I didn't ask what they might do to "fix" it. I wasn't confident that the knife would come back to my satisfaction so I didn't take the chance and asked for a refund.


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## chinacats (Jul 5, 2018)

Timthebeaver said:


> TF = $hit since way back when (at least 2006). Hype train drivers can post whatever they want, but the fact of the matter is that no one used to buy them. End of.




LOL...and still won't. Funny how they say it's bent to make it cut 'ingeniously' but others say bend it back...someone's wrong. Finally if you want a trusted maker in Japan without a language issue I don't think you could do better than Watanabe (Sin).


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## parbaked (Jul 5, 2018)

dwalker said:


> I would venture to say that, more often than not, performance is a secondary requirement for a large segment of the Japanese knife buying population.......not that there is anything wrong with that.



True and that is why TF has a online store so he can sell outside of Japan. He told me that his online sales are 90% outside Japan. He couldn't survive if he relied on the Japan mass market. He has no desire to sell to Tokyo Hands, departments stores or knife shops that want him to stamp they're brand on his knives. His business, like Takeda, Watananbe & others rely on overseas enthusiasts who create the demand for their work even more than their local mass market.


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## inzite (Jul 5, 2018)

parbaked said:


> True and that is why TF has a online store so he can sell outside of Japan. He told me that his online sales are 90% outside Japan. He couldn't survive if he relied on the Japan mass market. He has no desire to sell to Tokyo Hands, departments stores or knife shops that want him to stamp they're brand on his knives. His business, like Takeda, Watananbe & others rely on overseas enthusiasts who create the demand for their work even more than their local mass market.



tsubaya sells TF under their house brand, same for morihei's hisamoto white 1. I believe he sets up pop up shops in department stores as well. Just stropped my two denkas on bare leather and they are back to paper towel sharpness after no sharpening since mid jan.


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## panda (Jul 5, 2018)

arent fuji's considered project knives anyway? i assume heat treat is identical on nashiji line? if so, i would think best route is to just get one from that line directly cause theyre pretty cheap that way and do the work yourself or send it to someone for tweaking...


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## inzite (Jul 5, 2018)

panda said:


> arent fuji's considered project knives anyway? i assume heat treat is identical on nashiji line? if so, i would think best route is to just get one from that line directly cause theyre pretty cheap that way and do the work yourself or send it to someone for tweaking...



through my experience, nashiji isn't done as hard as maboroshi (meaning the later actually has better edge retention) and denka is on another level.


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## parbaked (Jul 5, 2018)

I didn't know that but I'm not surprised given how entrepreneurial he is.
So it's not that he has no desire to sell to the traditional Japanese channels e.g. knife shops and dept stores, but that he feels he must also explore any other channels.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 5, 2018)

inzite said:


> through my experience, nashiji isn't done as hard as maboroshi (meaning the later actually has better edge retention) and denka is on another level.


Thats my experience too


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## labor of love (Jul 5, 2018)

Screw this. I’m buying another Heiji.


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## parbaked (Jul 5, 2018)

inzite said:


> through my experience, nashiji isn't done as hard as maboroshi (meaning the later actually has better edge retention) and denka is on another level.



Gaku told me that the Maboroshi and Nashiji use two different versions of Shirogami 1. The details were lost in translation but one has more or less carbon to compensate for carbon lost or gained during the forging process. He brought out a book from Hitachi to show the different properties. I think he meant that Maboroshi uses the version of Shirogami 1 engineered for forging and Nashiji uses a version more engineered for stock removal, even though both are forged.


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## inzite (Jul 5, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Screw this. I’m buying another Heiji.



it'll be a great knife!


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 5, 2018)

TF does not use off the shelf W#1 and AS stock steel. They are custom produced by Hitachi based on the forging processes TF prefers.


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## JBroida (Jul 5, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> TF does not use off the shelf W#1 and AS stock steel. They are custom produced by Hitachi based on the forging processes TF prefers.



Just curious where you guys are finding information like this. For example, I know he has an inventory of older White steel (type a and b) but never have heard any of this other stuff.


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## HalfBloodHobbit (Jul 5, 2018)

That much warp is just unacceptable at TF’s price point, it should be corrected before it even gets a handle much less leave the factory that way. When I got my Denka and Maboroshi the terrible fit and finish were actually comical, distal taper was garbage and the grind was crap too. That being said, with some elbow grease, some grinding belts and some intensive stone work they can be turned into elite performers. Took me forever to properly thin my Denka but I’ve never used a better piece of Aogami Super, Unlike their white #1 it’s surprisingly tough, ductile and strop friendly and holds an edge better than my HAP 40 stuff.


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## panda (Jul 5, 2018)

this nonsense further adds to list of reasons why i havent tried a fuji yet..

custom heiji is next on my to get list but avoiding it cause i am going to want to knock the shoulders off even after i ask for a higher shinogi line, lol. i'm curious about fuji heat treat cause everyone says its legendary, but i already know and love heiji iwasaki heat treat, it's hella sexy steel.


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## inzite (Jul 5, 2018)

panda said:


> this nonsense further adds to list of reasons why i havent tried a fuji yet..
> 
> custom heiji is next on my to get list but avoiding it cause i am going to want to knock the shoulders off even after i ask for a higher shinogi line, lol. i'm curious about fuji heat treat cause everyone says its legendary, but i already know and love heiji iwasaki heat treat, it's hella sexy steel.



i would say they feel equally nice on the stones and get as keen off the stone but the denka just keeps that edge going for a long long long time.


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## inzite (Jul 5, 2018)

HalfBloodHobbit said:


> That much warp is just unacceptable at TF’s price point, it should be corrected before it even gets a handle much less leave the factory that way. When I got my Denka and Maboroshi the terrible fit and finish were actually comical, distal taper was garbage and the grind was crap too. That being said, with some elbow grease, some grinding belts and some intensive stone work they can be turned into elite performers. Took me forever to properly thin my Denka but I’ve never used a better piece of Aogami Super, I like their white #1 it’s surprisingly tough, ductile and strop friendly and holds an edge better than my HAP 40 stuff.



yeah tf needs to be hand picked to avoid heavy total rework. my denka has longer edge retention than my R2 if it doens't always cut acidic stuff, and strop on bare leather brings it back to 99%.


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## inzite (Jul 5, 2018)

JBroida said:


> Just curious where you guys are finding information like this. For example, I know he has an inventory of older White steel (type a and b) but never have heard any of this other stuff.



I'm not sure on the details but it seems maboroshi has longer edge retention than the nashiji that I have.


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## parbaked (Jul 5, 2018)

JBroida said:


> Just curious where you guys are finding information like this. For example, I know he has an inventory of older White steel (type a and b) but never have heard any of this other stuff.



When I asked the difference between Maboroshi and Nashiji they told me they use one type (a or b) for Maboroshi and the other for Nashiji. They never told me they used any special steel from Hitachi. I am just relating what I was told in the shop...


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## labor of love (Jul 5, 2018)

ashy2classy said:


> Ok ok, I give in.  I just looked at my Shigehiro and it's slightly bent too. Sorry for kinda lashing out. My greenness obviously shows. I never really took notice of them all not being straight until the TF. In my defense, however, none have been this apparent. So as I stated, it's probably not as bad as I thought. But the thread's point was more directed towards the transaction experience and not necessarily all about the knife itself.
> 
> I didn't take the time to photograph the edge as I just wanted to send it back and not waste any time and potentially drop it or something.  In hindsight I would have definitely taken photos from other angles to verify the extremity of the bend.


Oh snap! Wanna sell that shigehiro?


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## osakajoe (Jul 6, 2018)

ashy2classy said:


> Without other photos, I can't be sure the bend was as simple as that. As Gaku mentioned, the bend may have been intentional to create a proper edge. I didn't check so that was my fault and I didn't ask what they might do to "fix" it. I wasn't confident that the knife would come back to my satisfaction so I didn't take the chance and asked for a refund.



It’s not intentionally done. It’s what happens when you grind a knife blank on a large rotating stone. It bends. I grind knives daily on a big water wheel. It’s my job. 

Depending on what stage the grind is at you can hammer it straight or bend it. 

The picture you posted had the knife bending to the left (edge down looking at spine). From top middle to tip you bend it right and viola... straight again. 

Now this is not something I recommend doing with no experience. For me, easy 5 second fix. I see many knives daily, QC a lot more and know most knives come this way. Hence why I know how to fix them. 

Not saying you shouldn’t have sent it back. Definitely retailer needs better QC. However kicking up a lot of dust or calling the fire truck on an issue that needed a bucket of water, that’s a different story. 

Fun fact. Yanagiba knives are the more common that come bent. You all should go check for fun.


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## JBroida (Jul 6, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> It’s not intentionally done. It’s what happens when you grind a knife blank on a large rotating stone. It bends. I grind knives daily on a big water wheel. It’s my job.
> 
> Depending on what stage the grind is at you can hammer it straight or bend it.
> 
> ...



+1 ... especially the part about it being an easy fix for experienced people, but not something i would recommend most people try to fix on their own.

One other thing about the bend... if there was a bend during the making process that wasn't corrected and the edge was ground in while it was bent, the edge could appear straight while the spine appears bent. That may be what they were trying to explain to you. Still means that the blade wasn't straightened well during the making process, but its possible to have a straight edge and slightly bent spine in some cases.


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## DanDan (Jul 6, 2018)

My favourite Jon posts are where he drops in from nowhere questioning something posted on the forum... Anyway, if TF doesn't want to resolve it I say send it off for the fix. But now I'm curious whether it is a straight edge with a bent spine. I'd like to hear some testing results.

I'm constantly tempted to buy a petty direct from TF (because of the attractive price) and then every time one of these threads comes up I become disinterested. I've handled a couple in person that looked nice but didn't take the time to look at them too in depth. At this point I'm tempted to buy just for the fun of playing the lottery, it's like spinning the wheel of fortune!


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## labor of love (Jul 6, 2018)

Instead of playing the lottery by ordering direct you can just go through a vendor. Unless you have something custom you would like to have done (like the OP requesting a 225mm blade) I really don’t see the point.
Epic edge charges like $20 more after discount for a 210mm that runs long than what the OP paid by rolling the dice.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 6, 2018)

Pretty sure OP rolled the dice on a 225 becuase its a 'tweener size
you cannot buy anywhere else...he already has a 210 denka somewhere
he just posted it last week (with a custom re-handle).

edit: see> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/ashys-knives.37619/


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 6, 2018)

Per the OP this was not a custom order. It was a 225 maboroshi that TF just happened to have in stock. Question being why was it in stock in first place since its a tweener. I still contend this was a 240 ground down to a 225 after an incident that may have left the spine bent but was overlooked when fixed. The cladding line might help confirm. Thoughts OP?


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## parbaked (Jul 6, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Instead of playing the lottery by ordering direct you can just go through a vendor.



Not to many vendors carry the $75 Nashiji petty that he's talking about.
A $75 gamble on a project petty shouldn't be a big deal....


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## labor of love (Jul 6, 2018)

I haven’t noticed any discussion about a petty and my comments were only made with regard to no meito gyuto. It’s a bit presumptuous to think vendors don’t have in between sizes. I’ve checked personally in the past and I know sometimes they do depending on inventory.


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## parbaked (Jul 6, 2018)

labor of love said:


> I haven’t noticed any discussion about a petty and my comments were only made with regard to no meito gyuto.



Read the comment you were replying to.

DanDan said "_I'm constantly tempted to buy a* petty direct from TF *(because of the attractive price) and then every time one of these threads comes up I become disinterested."_

I'm simply stating that not many vendors carry the $75 Nashiji petty, which is what was actually being talked about.
Your comments about Maboroshi gyutos are not so relevant, in this case...


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## labor of love (Jul 6, 2018)

I didn’t notice the petty remark(obviously).
Although you may not find relevance in my comments it will hardly affect my sleeping schedule.


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## HalfBloodHobbit (Jul 6, 2018)

inzite said:


> I'm not sure on the details but it seems maboroshi has longer edge retention than the nashiji that I have.


 ironically the Nahiji petty I bought has better fit and finish than either my custom order Denka or Manoroshi. I ground it all the way down to a zero grind used exclusively for scoring fish for sushi/sashimi lol


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## KenHash (Jul 6, 2018)

parbaked said:


> I think there are also some cultural differences at play.
> In Japan, customers rarely return products.
> They just don't buy it again.
> It's all about avoiding conflict.



As a blanket statement, this is not wholly accurate. Traditionally a Japanese seller will offer to replace an item if the customer is not satisfied for any reason. It is the seller that seeks to avoid conflict, dissatisfaction and a blemish on their name. Not the customer. Today big Japanese business' have resorted to "call centers" where complaints regarding their products are called "claims" and customers who call in "claimers". These customer service centers seek to resolve customer issues. So customers may not ask for a return but often end up getting a replacement anyway.


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## JBroida (Jul 6, 2018)

KenHash said:


> As a blanket statement, this is not wholly accurate. Traditionally a Japanese seller will offer to replace an item if the customer is not satisfied for any reason. It is the seller that seeks to avoid conflict, dissatisfaction and a blemish on their name. Not the customer. Today big Japanese business' have resorted to "call centers" where complaints regarding their products are called "claims" and customers who call in "claimers". These customer service centers seek to resolve customer issues. So customers may not ask for a return but often end up getting a replacement anyway.



very accurate... also, please understand that the way japanese people deal with foreigners and the way japanese people deal with each other is rather different. Japanese people speaking to other japanese people are far more vocal about issues than people realize.


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## osakajoe (Jul 6, 2018)

JBroida said:


> ....Japanese people speaking to other japanese people are far more vocal about issues than people realize.



Especially in Osaka 笑笑


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## JBroida (Jul 6, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> Especially in Osaka 笑笑



hahahahahaha... so true


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## ashy2classy (Jul 6, 2018)

Thanks for all the additional comments. Many of them have been very helpful, especially in understanding the possible flaws in the blade and the misunderstandings that may have taken place in my conversation with Gaku.



Corradobrit1 said:


> Per the OP this was not a custom order. It was a 225 maboroshi that TF just happened to have in stock. Question being why was it in stock in first place since its a tweener. I still contend this was a 240 ground down to a 225 after an incident that may have left the spine bent but was overlooked when fixed. The cladding line might help confirm. Thoughts OP?



I had those exact concerns when I got such a quick reply saying one was available. However, I thought maybe someone decided they didn't want it so I took a chance. The only other option they gave was to purchase a 240 and have it modified, which after reviewing the other photos I was given, looks like exactly what this Maboroshi was. Here's another photo. Cladding line appears to be closer to the edge towards the tip than at the heel. I could be wrong, but it doesn't appear to be an original 225, but again I'm pretty green when it comes to determining these things by eye so maybe someone else can confirm?


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## chinacats (Jul 6, 2018)

My guess is that someone ordered a 225 and sent it back because it was bent. You asked for a 225 and there it was...next person that asks for a 225 will get the same knife until someone doesn't notice/care.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 6, 2018)

chinacats said:


> My guess is that someone ordered a 225 and sent it back because it was bent. You asked for a 225 and there it was...next person that asks for a 225 will get the same knife until someone doesn't notice/care.



Ingenious !
(oh, wait...)


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## labor of love (Jul 7, 2018)

Does anyone else find it pretty annoying that every page of a thread now contains like 25 or so comments? It’s a lot of stuff to scroll through.


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## Gjackson98 (Jul 7, 2018)

I feel ya, I have OCD problem, I always have to check the unread column and read through everything.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 7, 2018)

chinacats said:


> My guess is that someone ordered a 225 and sent it back because it was bent. You asked for a 225 and there it was...next person that asks for a 225 will get the same knife until someone doesn't notice/care.





labor of love said:


> Does anyone else find it pretty annoying that every page of a thread now contains like 25 or so comments? It’s a lot of stuff to scroll through.



Yes. This new forum design is too cluttered and general layout unclear. Not a fan


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## panda (Jul 8, 2018)

ashy, just get a spicy white from marko


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## DitmasPork (Jul 8, 2018)

Re-activate the “Like” button?


labor of love said:


> Does anyone else find it pretty annoying that every page of a thread now contains like 25 or so comments? It’s a lot of stuff to scroll through.


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## Paraffin (Jul 8, 2018)

DitmasPork said:


> Re-activate the “Like” button?



It's not the lack of a "Like button" causing the problem. It's the extra vertical spacing in the layout, caused by short posts (like yours above) where the info underneath the avatar image pushes down extra blank space below the white text box. It's better now with fewer items, but there is still extra vertical spacing between them, and extra blank space below those items. 

The sidebar to the right also scrunches up the text and makes each page longer to scroll. That's an easy fix if you haven't done it already, Go into your Profile (little guy image upper right), Preferences, and opt out of the sidebar. That keeps more text visible and reduces scrolling a bit.


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## panda (Jul 8, 2018)

the avatar + info area takes up too much space, it should be much smaller like make the avatar 48x48 pixels only.


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## ashy2classy (Jul 8, 2018)

panda said:


> ashy, just get a spicy white from marko



I asked him when we were discussing a custom and he said it'll be quite some time until he can forge it himself. It was on my radar.


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## labor of love (Jul 8, 2018)

Oh, he responded to your email? That’s always a good thing.


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## panda (Jul 8, 2018)

he doesnt have to forge it, he can get a blank from devin


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## jessf (Jul 9, 2018)

So what tipped the scales, the bend or not paying for shipping, or both.


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