# salting your food before you taste it?



## boomchakabowwow (Dec 5, 2016)

i dedicated my weekend to find a turkey to cook.

we drove by a nice restaurant and noticed it opened. hungry and looking for coffee we stopped. it is nice place. we have been there for dinner.

we were definately the youngest folks there. i sat there sipping my coffee and i saw everyone get their food, and immediately put salt on it. before tasting it. 

i dont even own a table salt shaker at home. if a guest needs some, i have to put some into a bowl so they can pinch up some. i should get a shaker. 

but seriously..i dont see the logic. is this an old time practice?


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## Matus (Dec 5, 2016)

No, I do not. But I see a lot of that behaviour at our work canteen where many do put salt and pepper-mixture (in a grinder) on their food/salad before even tasting it. The truth is - it does not save the crappy food quality/taste ...

I do not think it is an old time practice, just a lack of dining culture practice (I hope I do not offend anyone around here) and/or access to decent quality food/restaurants

I actually do have an exception - the french fries at work are without any salt, so I do not need to taste them to know there is no salt on them


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## XooMG (Dec 5, 2016)

I personally like to put the salt directly on my tongue (or gargle soy sauce) before ordering the food, so I am extra prepared.


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## WildBoar (Dec 5, 2016)

It's always possible the diners there are regulars and know the food is always under-salted.

But I do know people who salt before bothering to taste. Some have done it at our house, not knowing we usually have a pretty heavy hand with the salt when we cook. Some have done it with pepper flakes as well, not thinking for a moment that we may have actually put in a good level of heat when we were preparing the dish. Those are the best, as I know they will regret their decision to not taste first the next day


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## ThEoRy (Dec 5, 2016)

I have to go punch someone now.


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## pete84 (Dec 5, 2016)

Force of habit or a salt tooth maybe?

Some people have or develop high salt-tolerance palettes, personally I've noticed it more amongst cooks and chefs who are constantly tasting and salting food.

Some cooks over-salt food when they lack confidence in whether or not their dish is seasoned properly... or don't understand "how salty salt is" to adjust and change the flavor of something to a desired seasoning... or when using different salt types with different levels of salinity and flavor impact. 

On one occasion a Japanese chef I worked for yelled at me for putting siriracha sauce on my staff meal (Curry Rice) before tasting it. He was insulted that someone would alter the flavor of his food without sampling it beforehand. (Although it was instant S&B curry that I've tasted a billion times...and knew what it was going to taste like before digging in that afternoon...he was old school and didn't speak much English... just enough to give his cooks sh*t hahaha)


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## rahimlee54 (Dec 5, 2016)

My father in law does this to my food, which has been salted pretty aggressively. However, he is older and as we age our taste sensations diminish so salting everything helps with tasting. Depending on how old everyone was would be one contributing factor, also I am from the southeast and people here tend to eat a lot of salt so it could be location specific as well.

Jared


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## DamageInc (Dec 5, 2016)

I never have salt on the table.

Salt goes on the food when it is in the cooking stage or as a finisher. Not on the table.


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## mise_en_place (Dec 5, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> I never have salt on the table.
> 
> Salt goes on the food when it is in the cooking stage or as a finisher. Not on the table.



Agreed. If I give you food that needs salt, I've failed.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 5, 2016)

About the chili flakes: Sadly, it (just adding dried chili flakes) is what a lot of Thai places seem to do in the kitchen when you order higher spice levels, taking it more into a harsh than spicy direction ... OTOH, serving Thai dishes with a set of condiments that is in the end a six basic tastes DIY kit seems to be a thing with authentic roots AFAIK... maybe there is an "aroma is the chef's job, seasoning the customer's job" philosophy?


"Some cooks over-salt food when they lack confidence in whether or not their dish is seasoned properly" ... or aren't aware that piping hot stuff on a tasting spoon, for some reason (and maybe only for some people?), tends to taste less salty/umami than it will be on the plate (is there science to this?). What tastes salty in the pot to me I know will taste oversalted on the plate...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 5, 2016)

@Damage you tend to prefer your salt in a certain coarse and green form don't you?


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## mise_en_place (Dec 5, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> I have to go punch someone now.



If you put out some shakers with pink salt, you won't have to worry about this sort of aggression rising up very soon.


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## DamageInc (Dec 5, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Damage you tend to prefer your salt in a certain coarse and green form don't you?



If by that you mean capers, then yes. Specifically Carlsens Capers, which are the best capers out there anywhere, yet are sadly only available in a few grocery stores in Denmark. Even the expensive "gourmet" capers here in France can't hold a candle to the ones they make at Carlsens in Haarby.



LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> About the chili flakes: Sadly, it (just adding dried chili flakes) is what a lot of Thai places seem to do in the kitchen when you order higher spice levels, taking it more into a harsh than spicy direction ... OTOH, serving Thai dishes with a set of condiments that is in the end a six basic tastes DIY kit seems to be a thing with authentic roots AFAIK... maybe there is an "aroma is the chef's job, seasoning the customer's job" philosophy?
> 
> 
> "Some cooks over-salt food when they lack confidence in whether or not their dish is seasoned properly" ... or aren't aware that piping hot stuff on a tasting spoon, for some reason (and maybe only for some people?), tends to taste less salty/umami than it will be on the plate (is there science to this?). What tastes salty in the pot to me I know will taste oversalted on the plate...



I overheard in a bar somewhere after a few beers that the closer food is to body temp, the better you can taste salt content. Might be wrong, I'm not a rocket scientist (yet).


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## malexthekid (Dec 5, 2016)

I don't see the issue per se.... at least I get the logic you shoukd taste before salting but in terms of "you shouldn't have to add etc." Seasoning levels, especially salt and pepper can be preferences and just cause you like a little/a lot doesn't mean others do.

Isn't that where salt and pepper on a table comes from. So you can adjust these to your personal preference. I know I never go super heavy on salt cause my wife doesn't like it. So I will always salt my good more at the table.


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## mise_en_place (Dec 5, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> I overheard in a bar somewhere after a few beers that the closer food is to body temp, the better you can taste salt content. Might be wrong, I'm not a rocket scientist (yet).



I'd be surprised if that were entirely true (I know you're not saying it is). 

Maybe we can detect it better in a limited range near our core temp, but the colder the food, the harder it is to detect salt. Would be interested to look into this.


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## DamageInc (Dec 5, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I don't see the issue per se.... at least I get the logic you shoukd taste before salting but in terms of "you shouldn't have to add etc." Seasoning levels, especially salt and pepper can be preferences and just cause you like a little/a lot doesn't mean others do.
> 
> Isn't that where salt and pepper on a table comes from. So you can adjust these to your personal preference. I know I never go super heavy on salt cause my wife doesn't like it. So I will always salt my good more at the table.





Stop trying to make reasonable points.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 5, 2016)

Salt's complex, being a bitter antagonist and, if only slightly dosed above a person's tolerance, bitter as heck itself 

Pink salt as in industrial strength Kala Namak?

@malexthekidd I think the original point was about salting with prejudice, not salting after tasting 

If a chef really wanted neither, he would have to order the salt off the table - and accept that lovers gonna love and haters gonna hate and probably not return.


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## malexthekid (Dec 5, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> Stop trying to make reasonable points.



I beg your forgiveness for my grave error


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## DamageInc (Dec 5, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @malexthekidd I think the original point was about salting with prejudice, not salting after tasting



For a long time, my father would put ketchup on bolognese (before tasting it even). If salting before tasting gets my blood boiling, putting ketchup on bolognese opens up multiple black holes in my frontal lobe.

Damn, my family was a walking pack of plebs before I started shoving my opinions down their throats.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 5, 2016)

Oh, always amusing when people put mustard or ketchup on stuff that would have just needed vinegar or lime 

...


Similar thing: "use more dried herbs and less salt in your cooking" as diet advice. I bet unless people measure, they will actually often put more salt most of the time and THINK they used less (dried herbs are bitter...)...


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## DamageInc (Dec 5, 2016)

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Thomas Keller charged a customer at The French Laundry 10 bucks after a prolonged argument for extra salt. Again, I might have dreamed that.

Especially considering I also recall reading that Mr. Keller carries around a small packet of large crystal sea salt because he like the crunch.

If I am wrong, please don't correct me. I like to think that I am not just spouting misinformation.


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## mise_en_place (Dec 5, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Pink salt as in industrial strength Kala Namak?



Pink salt aka curing salt aka Prague Powder


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## DamageInc (Dec 5, 2016)

mise_en_place said:


> Pink salt aka curing salt aka Prague Powder



aka easy smoke ring faker


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## jessf (Dec 5, 2016)

Ive seen a lot of older people do this. I believe it's a habit brought about a lifetime of eating poorly seasoned food. It's psychosomatic as well. Replace the salt with something tastless and i bet you see the same ritualistic preconsumption behaviour. Take the food away and swap for an unsalted plate without telling them and i bet they wouldn't resalt.


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## malexthekid (Dec 5, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Salt's complex, being a bitter antagonist and, if only slightly dosed above a person's tolerance, bitter as heck itself
> 
> Pink salt as in industrial strength Kala Namak?
> 
> ...



I figured that... but also most people do tend to already have an idea based on experience if they will need more salt (doesn't mean they are always right though of course)


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## malexthekid (Dec 5, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> For a long time, my father would put ketchup on bolognese (before tasting it even). If salting before tasting gets my blood boiling, putting ketchup on bolognese opens up multiple black holes in my frontal lobe.
> 
> Damn, my family was a walking pack of plebs before I started shoving my opinions down their throats.



Ironically I hate that so much more than salt and pepper. It is legitimately changing the flavours as opposed to adjusting them to taste...


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## malexthekid (Dec 5, 2016)

jessf said:


> Ive seen a lot of older people do this. I believe it's a habit brought about a lifetime of eating poorly seasoned food. It's psychosomatic as well. Replace the salt with something tastless and i bet you see the same ritualistic preconsumption behaviour. Take the food away and swap for an unsalted plate without telling them and i bet they wouldn't resalt.



I think this is spot on. Used to simple meals at home where seasoning is added after and it just becomes your habit... i know I am guilty of this. Though less of the salt side, more I like a reasonable amount of pepper on some foods.


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## WildBoar (Dec 5, 2016)

I grew up on food cooked without salt, as my mom believed it was 'healthier'. It led to many people oversalting at the table. I believe seasoning during cooking helps control the overall salt content vs leaving it to people to handle at the table (other then a small tweak). Plus seasoning during cooking incorporates it better -- at the table you get some salted and some without, which often leads to adding even more. Plus it just doesn't taste as good that way.


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## DDPslice (Dec 6, 2016)

Every now and then my dad and I get together and I make some steaks and some classic side dishes. I salt the meat (both sides), I salt the pan, I salt the jus after the meat rested and spooned over...and STILL he salts it without tasting. There is no reason or logic to salting at the table. I have a roommate who salts while cooking with a table salt grinder instead of the Morton's fine grain or coarse salt. Why does he have to grind salt "fresh" and not pour some from his hand..the world may never know.


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## guari (Dec 6, 2016)

Never ever had a salt shaker at the table. I think it is a cooks fault to serve food short on salt. 

By the same token, I feel slightly amused to see a chef allowing salt shakers in the table in what's supposed to be a good restaurant.


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## scotchef38 (Dec 6, 2016)

My daughter does this and it drives me mad.There is even a name for them - autocondimentor.


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## DamageInc (Dec 6, 2016)

scotchef38 said:


> My daughter does this and it drives me mad.There is even a name for them - autocondimentor.



Why do you let her?

I find it completely disrespectful to alter a dish before tasting it.


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## scotchef38 (Dec 10, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> Why do you let her?
> 
> I find it completely disrespectful to alter a dish before tasting it.



Because she has a different palate from most people and it has taken a long time for us to get her to eat a reasonable range of foods(especially vegetables)so if this means that she will do this for now and continue to have a more diverse diet then so be it.I have faith she will grow out of it but as she is a teenager there are bigger battles to focus on.


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## zetieum (Dec 10, 2016)

XooMG said:


> I personally like to put the salt directly on my tongue (or gargle soy sauce) before ordering the food, so I am extra prepared.



That's a good one. Until now, I was drinking see water: a different approach, but you have to be next to the coast.


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## chefcomesback (Dec 10, 2016)

I don't , one of my pet peeves . I don't even allow salt on the tables in the restaurant, if someone asks my servers are trained to encourage guests to try to food first since I season more than "liberally" 
If you insist we can give you Maldon sea salt and you can help your self


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 10, 2016)

@scotchef if she is teenage, she's old enough to learn cooking. And before anyone implies sexism, I would have said the exact same thing about a son.


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## El Pescador (Dec 10, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @scotchef if she is teenage, she's old enough to learn cooking. And before anyone implies sexism, I would have said the exact same thing about a son.



Wow, you really have a problem with his daughter going through a phase she'll probably grow out of. I guess you don't have kids, because if you did you'd understand.

How is teaching her to cook going to fix anything? Have you ever tried to get a kid to take out the trash or clean their room? This would be a lot harder. What if she doesn't want to learn to cook?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 10, 2016)

I have no problem with it at all  I think my tone must have come across 10000% harsher and less constructive than intended.


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## scotchef38 (Dec 11, 2016)

Why would you presume she doesnt cook? Both my kids can brunoise,bone out poultry and make souffles amongst other things.She just likes salt more than she should.


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## scotchef38 (Dec 11, 2016)

Thanks for the moral support,she is actually really tidy with her room but almost everything else is a fight:nunchucks:


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## Aleque (Dec 11, 2016)

scotchef38 said:


> My daughter does this and it drives me mad.There is even a name for them - autocondimentor.



My family does this autocondimenting all the time! I've noticed this practice whenever we eat pho. They instantly start smothering the broth with hoisin sauce and siracha. It bothers me a little that the kitchen could be delicately balancing flavors only for patrons to utterly destroy it with their own condiment concoction.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 11, 2016)

Serve a stronger pho then, can still be balanced...  So they want it more sour, a tiny amount more "soft sugar" (honey, invertase,fruit ... as opposed to white sugar) sweetness, with more heat and stronger aromatics - hoisin sauce is in the end a five spice based sauce, and the five spice spices play a role in pho too, no?

If said daughter cooks, she probably knows what she is doing, so indeed what I said was unnecessary... get her on to capers then


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## DamageInc (Dec 11, 2016)

yes, more capers


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## brianh (Dec 11, 2016)

If at a decent restaurant, no. Ethnic places, never. But most of the delis and Italian places here don't know how to season for anything so I find myself hitting with a little s+p out of the gate.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 11, 2016)

"Ethnic places, never"

I guess it is dependent on the ethnicity ... Wouldn't put using the condiment tray with a Thai meal at the same level as using your sushi as a vehicle for soy sauce. I guess it has to do with how these cuisine styles deliver sublety - one by clearing the stage with a bomb and inviting you to bring your firecrackers too*, the other by bringing a quiet stage along and giving you a stern eye if you party on it

*no slighting intended, I love Thai and Korean being loud cuisine to deal with a loud zeitgeist. I guess japanese cuisine is the unplugged-acoustic version of pan-asian cuisine...


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## brianh (Dec 11, 2016)

I don't consider soy sauce the same as salting at the table. Soy at the table is more like an accompaniment IMHO.


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## Elfen23 (Dec 12, 2016)

Growing up, salt was always on the table, and generally needed. I got into the really bad habit of salting before tasting...

Then I grew up, was able to explore the adventurous side of my tastes and realized, for us, the salt was a direct result of not knowing how to use other seasonings. If it wasn't salt, pepper, or garlic it didn't happen in my house. More salt was the answer.

Bonus note: salting before tasting was one of Danny's biggest pet peeves!! Luckily, I'd grown out of it before we met, but I wish I could read his personal tirade on this thread. Guaranteed to make us laugh, which I desperately miss


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## Devon_Steven (Dec 13, 2016)

Growing up in Scotland during the 1970s and 80s, salt and (fine ground white) pepper were always on the table. Pretty standard to add them to the food without tasting too. Always a good bet too since nobody in our family circle knew how to cook.

Well, that's a bit harsh, they did do some (only some, mind you) decent dishes, but "salt first ask questions later" was standard anyway.

Growing up, teaching myself to cook and becoming more independent I began to notice that 'decent' restaurants didn't have salt and pepper on the tables.

Now, it later years, hosting my Mum, I was having to ask her to taste before salting, since I am seasoning the food during cooking.

Took her a while to get the hang of it, and I sometimes think she has modified her routine to take an obligatory taste and then add the damn salt anyway.

Some thing I specifically leave for table salting - chips (french fries) for example... it is personal preference how much salt one likes on chips, and you always want more as you get through the pile of chips.

Well, I guess chips is about it... chips and fried fish and seafood anyway.


Interesting discussion.

Steven


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 13, 2016)

People are hilarious. Perception of taste is subject to a high degree of variation. No need to get butthurt about it. Some people like heavy smokers may have a reduce ability to detect salt. Others still may have various olfactory issues which may affect the palate ..in fact many people don't realize that much of a perceived flavour is due more to the function of the nose and retronasal cavity than the tongue.


And plus some people, like me, really like black pepper.


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## TheVincenzo (Dec 13, 2016)

My grandfather did this all the time. No matter what what, he always salted his food at the table before tasting it and he did it for as long as I could remember. The funniest part was that my Grandma would give him grief over it, mainly because of the health risks of eating that much salt. One day when I was in my late teens I noticed that she stopped nagging him about putting salt on his food and just had a sort of sour look on her face. It stuck out to me because she would usually say something about it every meal, but she was being oddly quiet. I later asked her about it and she said that he recently went to the doctor's office to get some blood work. When they were in the office the doctor started to say something about his sodium levels. She immediately started saying something about how she is always telling him to use less salt. The doctor interrupted her and told them that actually his sodium levels were low and suggested that he should add salt to his food. Apparently after he said that my Grandpa just smiled and said "That's a good idea, I'll try that." I never heard her say anything about salt to him after that.


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## DaveInMesa (Dec 13, 2016)

mise_en_place said:


> Agreed. If I give you food that needs salt, I've failed.



No. You've given me food that suits your tastes, not mine. And if you've taken the salt shaker off the table, NOW you've failed, because that's bad hospitality. There is no "correct level of saltiness" in food. People's perceptions and preferences vary, not only from person to person, but also over time.


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## Elfen23 (Dec 13, 2016)

Tastes differ wildly, and biology does play a role. But the initial point was (I think) the assumption that a dish needs something before you even taste it. I say taste it first. Then, go with Flying Spaghetti Monster and salt/pepper/soy/hotsauce all you want. It's going in your mouth, not mine. I might judge you for it, but it will be a fleeting judgment


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 13, 2016)

@spoiledbroth I smoke, and I've still accidentally lowered my salt tolerance over time the more I cooked myself...


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 13, 2016)

It's not true 100% of the time like any generalization :wink:



DaveInMesa said:


> No. You've given me food that suits your tastes, not mine. And if you've taken the salt shaker off the table, NOW you've failed, because that's bad hospitality. There is no "correct level of saltiness" in food. People's perceptions and preferences vary, not only from person to person, but also over time.



This.


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## Devon_Steven (Dec 13, 2016)

Just to remind, the OP's point and most of the grumbling is not about adding salt at the table, but doing so before tasting the food.


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## malexthekid (Dec 13, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> And plus some people, like me, really like black pepper.



This, this and this.... can never have enough black pepper. Put heaps in when I cook, much to my wife's dismay and I'll still add a heap post cooking.

I have drastically cut back on salting post cooking. Try put a enough (though try to keep utvas minimal as needed) when cooking and add none after.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 13, 2016)

Devon_Steven said:


> Just to remind, the OP's point and most of the grumbling is not about adding salt at the table, but doing so before tasting the food.



Yeah but that's sort of a silly discussion. Sure you can live life getting gassed about what other people do.. not much point though. Can't stop it. And not having shakers in a restaurant seems like a poor idea for the reasons mentioned above.


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## krx927 (Dec 14, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> I grew up on food cooked without salt, as my mom believed it was 'healthier'. It led to many people oversalting at the table. I believe seasoning during cooking helps control the overall salt content vs leaving it to people to handle at the table (other then a small tweak). Plus seasoning during cooking incorporates it better -- at the table you get some salted and some without, which often leads to adding even more. Plus it just doesn't taste as good that way.



+ some foods you cannot salt at the table, like mash potatoes...


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## boomchakabowwow (Dec 14, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Yeah but that's sort of a silly discussion. Sure you can live life getting gassed about what other people do.. not much point though. Can't stop it. And not having shakers in a restaurant seems like a poor idea for the reasons mentioned above.



i think there is some irony in here somewhere.^^

it was just a silly question..just a regular silly question. really about flavor logistics. if a dish comes out too salty and you just start salting without tasting, arent you going in the wrong direction? that's all...i dont care about a chef's grand scheme, or a chinese mom's idea about balancing soy with ginger..just a regular question.

i'm not gassed about how anyone does things..especially not on the internet. and salt shakers at the restuarants isnt even a blip on my radar.

i was just wondering about the strategy of putting salt on food prior to tasting.


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## Devon_Steven (Dec 14, 2016)

krx927 said:


> + some foods you cannot salt at the table, like mash potatoes...



You can in Scotland ;-)


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 14, 2016)

Maybe it is about getting an estimate of third-bite intensity at the first bite?


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## malexthekid (Dec 14, 2016)

boomchakabowwow said:


> i think there is some irony in here somewhere.^^
> 
> it was just a silly question..just a regular silly question. really about flavor logistics. if a dish comes out too salty and you just start salting without tasting, arent you going in the wrong direction? that's all...i dont care about a chef's grand scheme, or a chinese mom's idea about balancing soy with ginger..just a regular question.
> 
> ...



I think it also depends on the dish.... soups, stews, pasta sauces etc. Always taste first because there are so many ingredients that affect salt content... if it is things like a steak you are potentially safer that there is "less" salt involved.

But ultimately salting without tasting is a habitual thing. There isn't a logic to it.


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## Krassi (Dec 14, 2016)

Matus said:


> No, I do not. But I see a lot of that behaviour at our work canteen where many do put salt and pepper-mixture (in a grinder) on their food/salad before even tasting it. The truth is - it does not save the crappy food quality/taste ...
> 
> I do not think it is an old time practice, just a lack of dining culture practice (I hope I do not offend anyone around here) and/or access to decent quality food/restaurants
> 
> I actually do have an exception - the french fries at work are without any salt, so I do not need to taste them to know there is no salt on them



Matus.. you are in Germany! be glad they dondt use Maggi or other "taste enhancers" before trying.

seeya daniel


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## mise_en_place (Dec 14, 2016)

DaveInMesa said:


> No. You've given me food that suits your tastes, not mine. And if you've taken the salt shaker off the table, NOW you've failed, because that's bad hospitality. There is no "correct level of saltiness" in food. People's perceptions and preferences vary, not only from person to person, but also over time.



I don't even own a salt shaker, so no chance of me pulling it off the table. 

There may be no "correct level" of saltiness, but there certainly is an optimal level-- and that absolutely varies from person to person. I know when I cook for my parents to use less salt. I knew when cooking for my late grandmother to use salt even more sparingly. If I invited you, Dave in Mesa, over to my house for dinner I'm cooking for YOU. So if you're an old fart, then I won't add so much salt to the food. If you're not an aged man, then I'll salt my food according to my normal standards. 

If you still want salt, then please get the **** out of my apartment. I'm kidding of course, but I really do feel like I've failed you as a diner if my food is too salty or needs more salt. I may disagree with you, but I'll still feel a little bad-- because after all-- if you don't share the same tastes as me, you must be some sort of uneducated rube


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 14, 2016)

If it is a home cooking situation, why don't invite all guests to the kitchen to have a final seasoning party?


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## mise_en_place (Dec 15, 2016)

I am waiting for Sheila85 to weigh in on this matter.


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## nutmeg (Dec 15, 2016)

DaveInMesa said:


> No. You've given me food that suits your tastes, not mine. And if you've taken the salt shaker off the table, NOW you've failed, because that's bad hospitality. There is no "correct level of saltiness" in food. People's perceptions and preferences vary, not only from person to person, but also over time.



I think there is a perfect amount of salt in a dish. And most important a perfect balance with salt, aromatics, spice, sourness and sugar.
Not enough of this and it tastes uninteressant, too much of that and it tastes complicated. 

Anyway the differences old-young, German-Japanese are minimal. You can't adjust this with a salt shaker...or it will be too much salt on it!
A dish "corrected" with a salt shaker is a dish a dish that has been..hmm.. not very properly cooked.


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## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> I think there is a perfect amount of salt in a dish. And most important a perfect balance with salt, aromatics, spice, sourness and sugar.
> Not enough of this and it tastes uninteressant, too much of that and it tastes complicated.
> 
> Anyway the differences old-young, German-Japanese are minimal. You can't adjust this with a salt shaker...or it will be too much salt on it!
> A dish "corrected" with a salt shaker is a dish a dish that has been..hmm.. not very properly cooked.



So you are saying there is no such thing as personal preference in taste?


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## nutmeg (Dec 16, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> minimal. You can't adjust this with a salt shaker


 ,twist of lemon or pinch of sugar.


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## DaveInMesa (Dec 17, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> I think there is a perfect amount of salt in a dish.



Oh, there is. But, not just _one _perfect amount... there is one perfect amount for each person.


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## nutmeg (Dec 17, 2016)

No. There is one perfect amount but it's very difficult and fine to obtain. 
Differences for people with 10-60 years old are minimal. I wouldn't cook differently.
Just ask someone who often eat in 2-3 Michelin stars restaurants. 
Or remember the finest dich you've ever eaten... I bet all the table found it perfect. This was the perfect seasoning.
Anyway in the everyday cooking like this is difficult ok. But I still believe a salt shaker corrects in a positive way.. only poor dishes.


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## jljohn (Dec 20, 2016)

Some folks will salt anything, no matter how salty it is. It's almost like a ritual.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 21, 2016)

I guess salting black ice before you try walking on it makes sense


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 21, 2016)

@nutmeg so your theory/postulate is that it is better to balance the salt perfectly to the other six-taste aspects of the dish than to the eater?


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## nutmeg (Dec 21, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @nutmeg so your theory/postulate is that it is better to balance the salt perfectly to the other six-taste aspects of the dish than to the eater?



Yes. This is cooking.
Mastering salt is the base of cooking. A dish is well balanced or not.
A good cook has to cook until his dish tastes. What are they doing in 2-3 Michelins stars restaurants, the 50 best restaurants of your country?
Do they cook thinking the customer could add salt by himself?

The good amount of salt is not between too little salt - too much salt
it is between enough salt to taste the ingredient - and enough salt to give him character

This margin is minimal and everything within this margin tastes good to me, to my cousin, his wife, his best friend, his best friend's grandma etc..


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 21, 2016)

@nutmeg why do I always have to think of the Thai condiment system in this discussion - that kind of works on the premise of "if the eater messes with it he'll need a six... make that seven * dimension kit to rebalance it and not just a salt cellar..."

But I have to admit I always wondered about the "kosher salt" cult ... my salt tends to be all dissolved in the sauce since i'll *need* it earlier anyway (for drawing juices out of something, or to help with getting things busted in a mortar, or....)

*believer in the fat receptor, the idea that bitter isn't one dimensional, and MAYBE in kokumi too


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## nutmeg (Dec 21, 2016)

I should cook and taste as I feel at the moment, trying to make it right, salting as much as I can until I reach the correct taste.
After a bit of training, when I know it's perfectly right I will say: sorry my friend, you don't need any salt shaker for this dish. 
My opinion but I believe that thinking to a salt shaker on the table leads to lazy seasonings.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 21, 2016)

LOL... as a single home cook it's often lazyness that makes me try to season everything right in the pan... so I can leave the kitchen with a plate and fork/chopsticks and eat without further ado 

And I find undissolved salt annoying, except on fries (where I prefer the ultimate salt kick: very finely ground, not too much  ).


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## malexthekid (Dec 21, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> I should cook and taste as I feel at the moment, trying to make it right, salting as much as I can until I reach the correct taste.
> After a bit of training, when I know it's perfectly right I will say: sorry my friend, you don't need any salt shaker for this dish.
> My opinion but I believe that thinking to a salt shaker on the table leads to lazy seasonings.



I think this is an exceptionally arrogant opinion. And ignores the multitude of evidence (including scientific) that people's taste buds are not uniform and even in fact change throughout life.

Afterall. Tell me what balanced is?

Lets look at a simplistic example, take thai good and the addition of chilli, you are likely to get two very different answers to where the balance with chilli is between a thai person and a person from US or Australian (or wherever else). Who is right?


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## jessf (Dec 21, 2016)

I realized today that when I sit to eat curry chicken roti i automatically pour on the scotch bonnet hot sauce. In actuality i get a little roti with my hot sauce. Maybe it's the same for salters. They really like salt and to them "too salty" is a long way away in the same way "too hot" isn't in my vocabulary.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 22, 2016)

If it's curry & roti that you made, garnishing it with hot sauce is part of your recipe 

@malexthekid isn't adding massive amounts of dried chili for the machismo, post-paste, more a westernized thai food thing? And heat is more of a texture than a taste, and also capsaicin tolerance is far more variable in people than salt tolerance (probably on a 1:1000 or something scale... one could never raise a 1000x their salt or acid tolerance since a 1000x normal dose of salt or acidity would be poisonous/corrosive. For everyone everywhere.  )

The food for thought I tried to serve was that salt, unless added at the table, has other functions in cooking than just seasoning. Dry roasting something and pouring hot water on top afterwards ain't gonna give you boiled something 

Confusingly on no one's side again


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## malexthekid (Dec 22, 2016)

Not in my experience. Actually thai food is very hot, they are jist used to that taste. Chilli actually has a taste that balances, not the hotness.

Also in Thailand having dried, fresh amd chilli paste at the table is very common. Acknowleding that people have a difference of opinion on how much. So the recipe uses a base amount (usually a lot more than the standard westerners like) and then you add more to taste.


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## malexthekid (Dec 22, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> If it's curry & roti that you made, garnishing it with hot sauce is part of your recipe
> 
> @malexthekid isn't adding massive amounts of dried chili for the machismo, post-paste, more a westernized thai food thing? And heat is more of a texture than a taste, and also capsaicin tolerance is far more variable in people than salt tolerance (probably on a 1:1000 or something scale... one could never raise a 1000x their salt or acid tolerance since a 1000x normal dose of salt or acidity would be poisonous/corrosive. For everyone everywhere.  )
> 
> ...



Also to your last comment, that is correct i think it has a few different uses in food. One is as a flavour enhancer (I have heard arguments that if you can taste the salt you added too much) but also as seasoning, which is a personal thing.


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## DaveInMesa (Dec 22, 2016)

mise_en_place said:


> I don't even own a salt shaker, so no chance of me pulling it off the table.



Luckily, there's little chance of you inviting me over for dinner and even less chance of me accepting. But, you should (get and) leave a salt shaker on the table, curb the control freak tendencies, and take the massive ego off it, instead. :biggrin: Whatever you may think of the health risks, you're not my physician, and a good host wants his/her guest to *enjoy* the meal, not just suffer through it because it's "optimal". What you consider optimal is almost certainly not what I consider optimal, so why would you try to force your preference upon me?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 22, 2016)

I was more about ... how you can use your salt "budget" usefully... osmotic or abrasive uses as I mentioned... or being able to add more tasty salt-preserved things...

And I found just going with thai recipes gives you great balance (but then I can take decent heat if it isn't harsh, unemulsified heat which I just find unpleasant usually).


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## DaveInMesa (Dec 22, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> I think there is a perfect amount of salt in a dish. And most important a perfect balance with salt, aromatics, spice, sourness and sugar.
> Not enough of this and it tastes uninteressant, too much of that and it tastes complicated.



Agreed. So, you'd have no objection to me adding salt to achieve the perfect amount _for me_, right? :biggrin:



nutmeg said:


> Anyway the differences old-young, German-Japanese are minimal.



No, sorry, but you could not be more wrong about that if you tried, especially since you mentioned Japanese. There's an entire island in Japan where the population has, over time, acquired a tolerance for, and a preference for, salt levels that American physicians would consider borderline suicidal. But these people have no problems with hypertension, high blood pressure, or any of the other supposed ill-effects of too much salt consumption. If you were to cook for these people you would absolutely, without question, give them a dish they would consider horribly under-seasoned. If they gave you a meal seasoned the way they like it, you probably wouldn't be able to eat it because of the high salt level, and you certainly wouldn't like it.

In restaurants, we generally season to please an average-to-educated palate, and still put salt and pepper on the tables. We don't assume we know what the customer is going to want. Why do home cooks think they're so much smarter?


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## malexthekid (Dec 22, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I was more about ... how you can use your salt "budget" usefully... osmotic or abrasive uses as I mentioned... or being able to add more tasty salt-preserved things...
> 
> And I found just going with thai recipes gives you great balance (but then I can take decent heat if it isn't harsh, unemulsified heat which I just find unpleasant usually).



But that is the key... what you think is harsh isn't what i think is harsh. Everyone's taste buds are different. That is a fact.

And usung salty things as opposed to salt is no different. It is still using salt in the food. Much like if I am making chicken stock... if I am using fresh chicken carcass I will add salt, if I am using roast chicken carcass i won't add much or even non at all if I was heavy with with salt during roasting. Salt content is the same.


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## skewed (Dec 22, 2016)

Elfen23 said:


> Growing up, salt was always on the table, and generally needed. I got into the really bad habit of salting before tasting...
> 
> Then I grew up, was able to explore the adventurous side of my tastes and realized, for us, the salt was a direct result of not knowing how to use other seasonings. If it wasn't salt, pepper, or garlic it didn't happen in my house. More salt was the answer.
> 
> Bonus note: salting before tasting was one of Danny's biggest pet peeves!! Luckily, I'd grown out of it before we met, but I wish I could read his personal tirade on this thread. Guaranteed to make us laugh, which I desperately miss



I would love to hear his tirade. Is there at thread here at kkf?

BTW- Elfen23, I am really enjoying hearing from you. I hope you continue to chime in. Reading old posts from Danny always hits me with a bitter sweetness... a smile and a tear.


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## nutmeg (Dec 22, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I think this is an exceptionally arrogant opinion. And ignores the multitude of evidence (including scientific) that people's taste buds are not uniform and even in fact change throughout life.
> 
> Afterall. Tell me what balanced is?
> 
> Lets look at a simplistic example, take thai good and the addition of chilli, you are likely to get two very different answers to where the balance with chilli is between a thai person and a person from US or Australian (or wherever else). Who is right?



Ok +1 for the Thai argument..
In France and Germany, both countries where I used to live a long time I could bet that 99% of the 10-60 years old persons say to a brillant seasoned dish "it's perfect".


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## skewed (Dec 22, 2016)

I think that the right amount of salt is a bit of a grey scale that is fairly narrow. I believe that most people around the world prefer roughly the same amount of salt independent of age. Percentage wise it would be a fairly tight range. As a chef for elderly people I aim at the lower side of salt content where most would not choose to add to it but a few might add a touch.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 22, 2016)

"There's an entire island in Japan where the population has, over time, acquired a tolerance for, and a preference for, salt levels that American physicians would consider borderline suicidal. "

Hey, far too little salt could actually kill you (won't happen if you ever eat processed food though)....


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## DaveInMesa (Dec 30, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> After a bit of training, when I know it's perfectly right I will say: sorry my friend, you don't need any salt shaker for this dish.



That's a level of arrogance I haven't seen since the last time I saw Donald Trump.


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## DaveInMesa (Dec 30, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Hey, far too little salt could actually kill you (won't happen if you ever eat processed food though)....



Quite right. See? Fast food saves lives! :justkidding:


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## nutmeg (Dec 30, 2016)

DaveInMesa said:


> That's a level of arrogance I haven't seen since the last time I saw Donald Trump.



here in France we always talk about what we are eating at the moment, mostly about products but also about seasoning.
Sometimes I say Sorry but this time, it lacks a bit of salt, tastes complicated because too much pepeer or the chicken breast is not medium-well done any more. Same for desserts, too sweet, too much gelatine etc..

As professional cook I used to learn what is the correct seasonning. Not from one people but from many through the years. Some of them coming from the 10 best restaurants of the country. It appeared some people can strike the perfect seasoning almost every times, doing very interressant tastes with only little material. It could be the case of the colleague preparing the meals for the personal this time. I can't do it that exactly but I can recognize it now and stay in the "grey tight zone" in seasoning.
Seasoning a soup for exemple is adding as much salt as I would think " Now it is comfortable, interessant but a pinch more and it would be too much". But we are talking about a pinch for one or two liters soup so I know that within this "seasoning zone" a salt shaker doesn't work for 20 cl and makes you directly come out the "seasoning zone". I can bet many professonal chefs would understand that.


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## chinacats (Dec 31, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> As professional cook I used to learn what is the correct seasonning. Not from one people but from many through the years. Some of them coming from the 10 best restaurants of the country. It appeared some people can strike the perfect seasoning almost every times, doing very interressant tastes with only little material. It could be the case of the colleague preparing the meals for the personal this time. I can't do it that exactly but I can recognize it now and stay in the "grey tight zone" in seasoning.
> Seasoning a soup for exemple is adding as much salt as I would think " Now it is comfortable, interessant but a pinch more and it would be too much". But we are talking about a pinch for one or two liters soup so I know that within this "seasoning zone" a salt shaker doesn't work for 20 cl and makes you directly come out the "seasoning zone". I can bet many professonal chefs would understand that.



Your reasoning assumes that people enjoy their food 'properly seasoned'. Unfortunately, this means that your perfect seasoning could leave some in want of more salt and others believing you may have overdone it a bit...I do agree that there tends to be a 'zone' that is best but again, because you feel it is seasoned correctly doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will agree.

My brother puts salt on everything (including pizza and ice cream) without tasting first...because of course the pizza doesn't have enough salt


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## jessf (Dec 31, 2016)

Regardless of your preference for salt, seasoning before you taste just doesn't make sense. Look before you leap, test the milk temp before you feed, dip your toe before you jump in the bath. 

It's an ideological battle between those that calculate and those that throw caution to the wind.


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