# Is this the best Santoku knife?



## Bryan

I am looking for an amazing santoku knife - I currently have a Wusthof santoku that gets shaving sharp but not very attractive and a little too thick. 

I am considering either a Shun Kaji or this offering from Rutlands in the UK which has 64 layers wrapped arround a SG-2 core:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/knives/ki...186/micarta-hocho-santoku-all-purpose---165mm

Any advice or other suggestions would be most welcome..


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## Johnny.B.Good

Welcome to the forum Bryan.

Are you located in the UK?

You might check out this website if you haven't already: http://japanesechefsknife.com/default.html

Large selection of quality knives with fast, cheap shipping around the world (and rarely a problem with customs).


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## SameGuy

Is there such a thing as a _good_ santoku?

I got a $9 KAI PureKomachi 2 santoku for my wife; she's afraid of any blade longer than about 7" and the pink color makes her think it's "less sharp" and not too scary.


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## DeepCSweede

Welcome Bryan,

One thing you will learn quickly is that there is a defiance, loathing and general dislike of all things Santoku by many forum members. I don't have a major problem with them personally, but I also do not purchase high end Santoku's either. With that said. Perhaps you can share a little more information such as what your budget is, what type of handle you think you may want (western or wa), type of grip you use when cutting, whether or not you have any experience sharpening or not or will want to sharpen, how much care you are willing to put into a blade...


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## DanB

Yeah, I don't get the santoku craze either. I'll take a gyuto every time.


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## quantumcloud509

Bryan said:


> I am looking for an amazing santoku knife - I currently have a Wusthof santoku that gets shaving sharp but not very attractive and a little too thick.
> 
> I am considering either a Shun Kaji or this offering from Rutlands in the UK which has 64 layers wrapped arround a SG-2 core:
> 
> http://www.rutlands.co.uk/knives/ki...186/micarta-hocho-santoku-all-purpose---165mm
> 
> Any advice or other suggestions would be most welcome..



I for some odd reason have a mint condition, sharpened once Shun Granton Santoku 7" in my backpack. I used it once, then put a nicer edge on it. Its $85+ shipping to you. 



DanB said:


> Yeah, I don't get the santoku craze either. I'll take a gyuto every time.



+1 im a cleaver guy myself!  although some stuff like cleaning 100 pounds of brussel sprouts gets annoying with cleaver, so I use gyuoto. Love all my Takeda products. Slowly gifting away all of my Wustholfs to my dishwashers and teaching them the basics.


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## Eamon Burke

I'm going to be bold here.

No. That is not the best santoku. And holy moly is it expensive.

Check out japanese knife imports for real deal traditional stuff, but why don't you just tell us what exactly you are looking for? There is a sticky for that.

Welcome, Bryan!


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## NO ChoP!

It looks identical to the tanaka R2's I have, one being micarta as well. A tanaka R2( which is probably better than sg2) santoku would run $420ish, American...

And they are bass$$, by the way.


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## shankster

Lots of santoku hate on these boards,so I guess I'm in the minority when I say I like my santokus.I have 2.A Kasumi SS,which I got for a bargain and use as a beater,and a Moritaka #2 Blue(yes,yes I know..beware the curse of the Moritakas) I'm not endorsing either brand,but I think a santoku can be a good addition to any kit.It's small enough when you don't want to pull out the big guns and has enough blade height when a petty won't do.

Just don't buy the ones with the grantons.


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## TB_London

Welcome to the forum.

First off, the knives rutlands have are massively overpriced, they also have a lot of half truths in their marketing spiel. Every now and then their catalogue drops through my door and they've slowly started stocking more Japanese knives but I don't think they have a clue what they are selling.
For that kind of money you could start thinking about a custom made knife from Will Catcheside, based in Hereford and has a sub forum on this site.
I'd recommend looking at JCK linked to by Johnny, shipping to UK is very reasonable and they have a good choice at reasonable prices. 
Any reason you chose santoku shape? A Gyuto is much more versatile and offers more choice in makers and steels.

If you read some of the what knife threads you might find it useful to see what has been recommended before.
Good luck and ask away with questions


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## Shinob1

Give Jon at Japanese Knife Imports a call. He will get you setup. Just bought a knife from him and his service was excellent.


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## SpikeC

I don't understand why a preference for one type of knife equates to hatred for another. There is too much talk of "hate" in my opinion. I have a santoku and rarely use it because other knives in my assortment work better for what I do, and would not recommend one, but that does not equate to hatred!


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## echerub

I happen to like using my Watanabe santoku for some things, so I'm not against santokus. However, I'm not sure they make the best all-purpose knife... Unless you're really not comfortable with something longer than 7".


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## shankster

Ok,maybe "hate " was too strong a word to use.How about "no love"? :-D


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## SpikeC

That works!


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## SameGuy

SpikeC said:


> I don't understand why a preference for one type of knife equates to hatred for another. There is too much talk of "hate" in my opinion. I have a santoku and rarely use it because other knives in my assortment work better for what I do, and would not recommend one, but that does not equate to hatred!



This. Not "hate" at all. Just (like we've read everywhere) the knife's "three virtues" actually mean "not really good at any one task."


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## shankster

"Unless you're really not comfortable with something longer than 7". "

That's what he said... sorry couldn't help myself. 
"However, I'm not sure they make the best all-purpose knife"
I don't think there's one "best" all purpose knife,although the gyuto does come close..


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## shankster

SameGuy said:


> This. Not "hate" at all. Just (like we've read everywhere) the knife's "three virtues" actually mean "not really good at any one task."



" The word santoku loosely translates as "three virtues" or "three tasks",a reference to the 3 cutting tasks it performs well,slicing,dicing and mincing"


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## SameGuy

Except that it doesn't do _any_ of those tasks as well as any number of other knives. 

Just like an SUV doesn't handle or ride as well as a car, nor is it as useful as a minivan or pickup truck, and it's not the cheapest vehicle to buy or to run. That's it! The santoku is the SUV of knives!


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## NO ChoP!

I use Macs in my home kitchen and the santoku is my go-to. I love it, but would never use it at the job...


And as far as Moritaka goes, I wish everyone would stop apologizing! I have had many knives pass through my kitchen in the last year from Carter to Tanaka Ironwood, and the Moritaka French gyuto has been my favorite- by a looong shot! I love it! No apologies!


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## Crothcipt

At work I use my santoku cause my cutting area isn't very large to hold my gyuto. But I usually only end up cutting fried fish and some south west egg rolls. The weight on the tip end works well for getting through the crust on them.


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## shankster

NO ChoP! said:


> I use Macs in my home kitchen and the santoku is my go-to. I love it, but would never use it at the job...
> 
> 
> And as far as Moritaka goes, I wish everyone would stop apologizing! I have had many knives pass through my kitchen in the last year from Carter to Tanaka Ironwood, and the Moritaka French gyuto has been my favorite- by a looong shot! I love it! No apologies!



No apologies from me either.Love my Moritakas.I have 3, although the gyuto hasn't seen much action since I bought my Kono HD.
That French gyuto looks like a sweet piece of steel.


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## ThEoRy

Being the best santoku is like being the best C student.


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## don

The arguement against a multipurpose knife can be applied to gyutos and chefs knives as well.

What limits the utility of the santoku is length. But if you want a shorter knife, I don't understand what the issue is. I like the height, which facilitates moving of chopped or sliced product.


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## jaybett

Welcome to the forum.

For whatever reason or reasons, there seems to be a bias against any knife on the forum that isn't a gyuto. The typical question asked by the gyuto fan boys is why do you want that knife? They also will follow up with a statement, that the gyuto can do everything that knife can, plus more. 

A vegetable cleaver, does a better job of chopping, then a gyuto. A sujihiki is a better slicer then a gyuto. So why doesn't everybody drop their gyutos and pick a vegetable cleaver and a sujihiki? The gyuto is an all around knife that can do 90 percent of the cuts, more or less needed in a kitchen. Of all the Asain knives, the gyuto is one of the easiest knives for westerners to use. 

How much cutting is needed i.e. production, plus the type of cuts, are the key factors in deciding what type of knife to pick up. If you are cooking for yourself or your family and hardly ever cook for a party or function, then any type of knife from a nakiri to a santoku, to a gyuto will work. 

Most of us on the forums, are serious home cooks, besides cooking for ourselves, we volunteer dishes or our time to help out various functions from family to work. This brings up the issue of production. A longer knife will be more productive then a shorter one. Santokus in general are short knifes, usually 165mm-190mm. Gyutos come in various lengths but the popular sizes are 210mm, 240mm, and 270mm. 

The rest of the forum members work in the food industry, so their main criteria is going to be production. 

My first Japanese knife was a santoku. I think its most peoples gateway into Japanese knives. I really liked the santoku, it did all the cuts I wanted on small to medium fruits and vegetables, and smaller cuts of meat, such as chicken breast. The wide blade of a Santoku is a nice feature. It's like a built in edge guard, because its harder to inadvertently cut yourself with a wide blade, then a skinny one. The wide blade makes for easy garlic peeling, clearing the board is a snap. The main drawback of a santoku is lack of production. 

A santoku paired up with a sujihiki would make a nice combination for a home cook who occasionally has a party. Hmm this also might be a good travel option. This combination would probably satisfy 80 percent of my needs. I'm appreciating more and more the speed and convenience of smaller knives. When it comes to making a large batch of salsa, I reach for a vegetable cleaver, but for most everything else a santoku would be fine. 

Another knife that is often over looked is the nakiri. With its relatively flat edge, and thin blade, it is probably the top choice for a dedicated vegetable knife. It can easily do all the cuts from fine dice to brunoise. The flat edge of a 180mm nakiri, can be just as long, if not longer then a 240mm gyuto. Plus it is one of the easiest knives to sharpen. While its strength is vegetables, its weakness would be proteins. People do use it on meat, but the lack of a pointed tip is a drawback. 

A nice kit would be a nakiri, petty, and sujihiki, for the home cook. 

If you are like most of us, a home cook, who loves to cook, then a gyuto will probably end up being the right choice for you. 

Jay


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## ThEoRy

don said:


> What limits the utility of the santoku is length.




The clumsy shape of its tip is limiting as well.


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## jaybett

ThEoRy said:


> The clumsy shape of its tip is limiting as well.


Oh here we go, another bias, from the Gyuto Glee Club. This is there typical response to people who are thinking about picking up a cleaver or nakiri. It doesn't have a tip. Those considering santokus, the tip is limited or clumsy. I don't get the glee clubs fascination with tips?

Jay


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## ThEoRy

shankster said:


> " The word santoku loosely translates as "three virtues" or "three tasks",a reference to the 3 cutting tasks it performs well,slicing,dicing and mincing"




Kind of, but there's more to the story. 

It was originally marketed towards young Japanese housewives around 1930s-1950ish when western food started becoming popular in Japan as the hip new western knife that was capable of handling meat, fish and veggies. Therefore three virtues. "Hey ladies, wanna be hip and cool and eat like like westerners? Then you need this new knife. You don't need specialized knives like deba, yanagiba and usuba anymore when this one knife does it all!!"

So there's actually 3 sets of "three virtues". Slice, dice, mince. Meat, fish, veg. And Deba, yanagi, usuba. This ************* knife has 9 ************* virtues yall! Buy this **** now!

What do I see there? Marketing talk. Nothing more. And now we've come full circle here in the West. "Wanna have cool Japanese knives ladies? You need a santoku!" That's where I see a lot of the disdain towards this knife coming from as well. The marketing backlash.

All that being said, I have two santoku. Do I take them to work in my kit and use them? No.


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## ThEoRy

jaybett said:


> Oh here we go, another bias, from the Gyuto Glee Club. This is there typical response to people who are thinking about picking up a cleaver or nakiri. It doesn't have a tip. Those considering santokus, the tip is limited or clumsy. I don't get the glee clubs fascination with tips?
> 
> Jay




Not a biased opinion, it's fact. Please don't place me in any group either. I like cleavers alright and they have their place as prep monsters. Nakiri have qualities which make them great performers too. What about santoku makes it great? What one thing can it do better than all the other knives? Or better than any one knife?...............

P.S. I have 2 santoku. Neither one of them are great at anything.


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## Vertigo

jaybett said:


> I don't get the glee clubs fascination with tips?


You seriously don't understand why a tip is useful?


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## jaybett

Vertigo said:


> You seriously don't understand why a tip is useful?


No, I don't understand the Gyuto users Fascination with the tip.

Jay


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## Lucretia

OK, you guys will probably all pile on and make me cry :cry: but I have a Ryusen SG2 santoku and really like it. I'm a home cook making small portions, and for a whole lot of applications it's my go-to knife. For a few small onions, mushrooms, garlic, etc. it's my favorite knife. It's a nice smaller size for working on tight countertops, and is big enough for most things I cook. I like the height of the blade for transferring ingredients, and it's just a very, very comfortable knife for me. If I need to do much of anything requiring tip work, I can pull out a paring or utility knife. Or my gyuto. I'm not so worried about which knife is "best all around"--I like the santoku because it's comfortable, holds an edge, sharpens easily, and it cuts really well. I can see where someone packing knives to work would try to have a multipurpose knife, but it doesn't seem as important for a home cook with a drawer full of pointy implements of destruction. I look at what needs to be prepped, and pull out the knife that suits my mood as well as the task at hand. And if the right knife isn't there, then it's just time to buy another knife...


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## jaybett

ThEoRy said:


> Not a biased opinion, it's fact. Please don't place me in any group either. I like cleavers alright and they have their place as prep monsters. Nakiri have qualities which make them great performers too. What about santoku makes it great? What one thing can it do better than all the other knives? Or better than any one knife?...............
> 
> P.S. I have 2 santoku. Neither one of them are great at anything.



Yes, it is a biased opinion, unless you can explain, why the tip of a gyuto is superior to a cleaver, nakiri, or santoku? There are gyuto's that have santoku like tips, does that make them inferior?

The argument that a santoku does nothing great, is an argument that can also be used against the gyuto. 

Any given knife, can be the proper one, in the right situation. Just because a knife isn't good in a restaurant doesn't mean it wouldn't work in a home kitchen. Every type of knife has its strength and weaknesses, that is why most of us have a variety of them. To dismiss a knife out of hand, because it doesn't measure up to the strengths of another knife, is short sighted. 

Jay


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## ecchef

My 'go to' knife at home is a Watanabe santoku, much thinned and slightly reprofiled. It's compact enough for home use and does anything pretty well from splitting a bagel, to dicing veggies, to slicing small cuts of proteins. Does it do everything fabulously? Of course not. Does it do everything I need it to do? Absolutely. And it can take a beating if necessary.


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## Vertigo

jaybett said:


> No, I don't understand the Gyuto users Fascination with the tip.


I'm not buying your argument, bro. Not understanding why a cook appreciates a good tip is like not understanding why an auto mechanic appreciates good torque. If you don't get it, you don't get it. That's cool. Enjoy your santoku man, we all have one.


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## 99Limited

Lucretia said:


> OK, you guys will probably all pile on and make me cry :cry: but I have a Ryusen SG2 santoku and really like it. I'm a home cook making small portions, and for a whole lot of applications it's my go-to knife. For a few small onions, mushrooms, garlic, etc. it's my favorite knife. It's a nice smaller size for working on tight countertops, and is big enough for most things I cook. I like the height of the blade for transferring ingredients, and it's just a very, very comfortable knife for me. If I need to do much of anything requiring tip work, I can pull out a paring or utility knife. Or my gyuto. I'm not so worried about which knife is "best all around"--I like the santoku because it's comfortable, holds an edge, sharpens easily, and it cuts really well. I can see where someone packing knives to work would try to have a multipurpose knife, but it doesn't seem as important for a home cook with a drawer full of pointy implements of destruction. I look at what needs to be prepped, and pull out the knife that suits my mood as well as the task at hand. And if the right knife isn't there, then it's just time to buy another knife...



I feel the same way. In fact what brought me to these knife forums a year ago was that I bought a Shun santoku from a shop in south NJ, JustKnives101. They carried several lines of J knives that I hadn't seen before so I Googled them and the rest is history. My Shun was a replacement for another santoku that I had used for 10 years. Granted now that I have collected a dozen gyutos, I don't use the santoku very often, but when I do it does everything I need done.


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## TB_London

It seems like marketing is what leads people unfamiliar with kitchen knives to get one. I want a new knife>have you tried Japanese knives they're super sharp and cut stuff really well> look at this Japanese shape. The Santoku is easy to sell as Japanese in the same way that Damascus is because it looks obviously different. A Japanese gyuto next to western chef knife to the untrained eye look very similar, so by having something that looks different it's easier to sell, and in the UK at least the santoku is the atypical Japanese knife that every manufacturer is churning out.
I have a carter and a moritaka but will more often reach for a gyuto/fund/petty as they do what I want better. Gyuto are recommended as if you were to only get one knife it is IMO much more versatile.


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## dav

I'm probably not the best person for giving out advice as I'm a complete newb when it comes to the subject but I'm in a similar position to the OP and have indeed found after using my newly purchsed Gyuto that it feels both more natural (is that due to balance/geometry) and versatile in comparison to a Santoku I have.


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## DanB

ThEoRy said:


> Kind of, but there's more to the story.
> 
> It was originally marketed towards young Japanese housewives around 1930s-1950ish when western food started becoming popular in Japan as the hip new western knife that was capable of handling meat, fish and veggies. Therefore three virtues. "Hey ladies, wanna be hip and cool and eat like like westerners? Then you need this new knife. You don't need specialized knives like deba, yanagiba and usuba anymore when this one knife does it all!!"
> 
> So there's actually 3 sets of "three virtues". Slice, dice, mince. Meat, fish, veg. And Deba, yanagi, usuba. This ************* knife has 9 ************* virtues yall! Buy this **** now!
> 
> What do I see there? Marketing talk. Nothing more. And now we've come full circle here in the West. "Wanna have cool Japanese knives ladies? You need a santoku!" That's where I see a lot of the disdain towards this knife coming from as well. The marketing backlash.
> 
> All that being said, I have two santoku. Do I take them to work in my kit and use them? No.




Isn't it Rachael Ray who largely popularized the santoku, with her awful Furi knives?


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## shankster

ThEoRy said:


> Kind of, but there's more to the story.
> 
> It was originally marketed towards young Japanese housewives around 1930s-1950ish when western food started becoming popular in Japan as the hip new western knife that was capable of handling meat, fish and veggies. Therefore three virtues. "Hey ladies, wanna be hip and cool and eat like like westerners? Then you need this new knife. You don't need specialized knives like deba, yanagiba and usuba anymore when this one knife does it all!!"
> 
> So there's actually 3 sets of "three virtues". Slice, dice, mince. Meat, fish, veg. And Deba, yanagi, usuba. This ************* knife has 9 ************* virtues yall! Buy this **** now!
> 
> What do I see there? Marketing talk. Nothing more. And now we've come full circle here in the West. "Wanna have cool Japanese knives ladies? You need a santoku!" That's where I see a lot of the disdain towards this knife coming from as well. The marketing backlash.
> 
> All that being said, I have two santoku. Do I take them to work in my kit and use them? No.



That was a direct quote from wikipedia,not my words...Of course there's marketing involved.These companies are in the business to make money,as well as make great knives(almost all of the reputable makers sell santokus in one form or another) so if they can fill a niche market(housewives.home cooks),and still produce a quality knife,who cares?


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## DeepCSweede

shankster said:


> Ok,maybe "hate " was too strong a word to use.How about "no love"? :-D



That is why I did not use the word "hate" LOL


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## tk59

jaybett said:


> No, I don't understand the Gyuto users Fascination with the tip.
> 
> Jay


There's no fascination here. I also don't think there is a bias against "every non-gyuto" knife. It's just the cleaver (clumsy), santoku (short and wants to be a nakiri or gyuto but can't make up it's mind), nakiri (unitasker)-type stuff that many find less than ideal. Frankly, I don't understand why you don't understand, lol.


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## shankster

What's wrong with the tip on this beauty?

http://www.toshoknifearts.com/shop/knives/konosuke-stainless-santoku-180mm


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## Eamon Burke

Thick tip sections, by virtue of simply having more surface area, create more drag. Worse than that, if you are trying to do something, say, take the rind off an orange or lemon, having that big flat hunk of metal behind the edge prys at it, and makes it hard to work. The tip of a gyuto or chef's knife is nimble and can fit into long, narrow spaces and make turns, a santoku, nakiri, or cleaver cannot. Cutting a circular hole(say, to remove a stem-end) without a thin tip is pretty annoying.

I'm also kind of a minimalist, the sheepsfoot on a santoku isn't doing anything--so why have it?



Preferences aside, that knife looks hella expensive to me. What is essentially a blingy old-school Shun should not cost the same as a Suisin Inox Honyaki.


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## jaybett

Vertigo said:


> I'm not buying your argument, bro. Not understanding why a cook appreciates a good tip is like not understanding why an auto mechanic appreciates good torque. If you don't get it, you don't get it. That's cool. Enjoy your santoku man, we all have one.



I didn't say appreciation, I said fascination. Maybe I should have said, enthralled. 

Jay


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## jaybett

tk59 said:


> There's no fascination here. I also don't think there is a bias against "every non-gyuto" knife. It's just the cleaver (clumsy), santoku (short and wants to be a nakiri or gyuto but can't make up it's mind), nakiri (unitasker)-type stuff that many find less than ideal. Frankly, I don't understand why you don't understand, lol.



How can you say, there isn't a bias against "every non-gyuto". Almost every thread, I've seen where a new member, is asking for advice on a santoku or nakiri, the usual questions or statements will be posted. Why do you want a santoku?" A gyuto can do everything a santoku can and more? The tip isn't useful on a santoku. The santoku isn't great at anything. On the other hand, if a new member asks about a gyuto, they don't get these types of questions or statements.

If the goal of the forum is to find the ideal knife, then why do so many members use a compromised knife, the gyuto? A nakiri or cleaver, is a better chopping knife then the guyto. A sujihiki is a better slicing knife then a gyuto. If the tip is so important, a petty or even a sujihiki has a better tip,then a gyuto.

I can envision a number of situations where the gyotu would be a good solution to a cook's needs. Can a gyuto user, imagine a situation, where a nakiri, santoku, or cleaver, would be a good solution to a cook's needs?

Jay


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## bieniek

ThEoRy said:


> What do I see there? Marketing talk. Nothing more. And now we've come full circle here in the West. "Wanna have cool Japanese knives ladies? You need a santoku!" That's where I see a lot of the disdain towards this knife coming from as well. The marketing backlash.



Hahaha and that is said when you use a "gyuto" term just cause it sounds cool. 

All is marketing man. Wake up. 

Why would you all talk about it being bad choice? It cannot be bad, it is just his/hers personal. The amount of sterlings involved is massive, and that should be pointed out, as well as responses on simple question: Is that best santoku, and NOT is that a best knife in universe.

IMHO it is not the best, but I dont have a clue which would be the best. Look at the BST section. Knives being sold from people who just buy them to have them. Then they realize they dont use it, and sell it. God bless them. You wanna be one of them?


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## tk59

jaybett said:


> ...Almost every thread, I've seen where a new member, is asking for advice on a santoku or nakiri, the usual questions or statements will be posted. Why do you want a santoku?" A gyuto can do everything a santoku can and more? The tip isn't useful on a santoku. The santoku isn't great at anything. On the other hand, if a new member asks about a gyuto, they don't get these types of questions or statements...


Most people that I know, including myself started with a santoku and no longer use it (pettys and gyutos seem to be the consensus.). This includes people that don't own more than a handful of knives. Because of this, I think it's a useful question to ask.


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## DeepCSweede

I think the point has been made (no pun intended)- How about if the people who do love / use santoku's give a response to our new forum member and the rest of us who don't can keep truckin' on our gyuto/petty lovin' way. 

When I bought mine, I knew nothing about its background, I just thought it might be a handy knife to have around and it had a good balance and feel, but I too rarely use mine any more. I use mine for cutting medium hard to hard cheeses and I really like it for that so I really don't have any recommendations for Andrew so I am out. 

Andrew - Once again welcome to KKF and good luck in your search.


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## SameGuy

DeepCSweede said:


> I use mine for cutting medium hard to hard cheeses and I really like it for that ...


LMFAO! As I mentioned, my $9 santoku is the one my wife uses, and the only three times I've used it in the last three months is to cut wedges of Reggiano into manageable chunks! It works very well for that, and I don't have to worry about hacking up my real knives' edges.


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## SpikeC

shankster said:


> What's wrong with the tip on this beauty?
> 
> http://www.toshoknifearts.com/shop/knives/konosuke-stainless-santoku-180mm



That profile is a very good match for my Takeda gyuto!


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## slowtyper

TB_London said:


> It seems like marketing is what leads people unfamiliar with kitchen knives to get one. I want a new knife>have you tried Japanese knives they're super sharp and cut stuff really well> look at this Japanese shape. The Santoku is easy to sell as Japanese in the same way that Damascus is because it looks obviously different. A Japanese gyuto next to western chef knife to the untrained eye look very similar, so by having something that looks different it's easier to sell, and in the UK at least the santoku is the atypical Japanese knife that every manufacturer is churning out.



I think this post is spot on about the shape of a santoku being why its popular. Its easy to say, sounds cool, and looks "Japanese".


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## slowtyper

the tip on a cleaver is actually super functional. It's different, but very useful. I disagree with the poster who was saying that people here just like gyutos and nothing else....to me that is way off since people here love having suji's cleaver nikiri's yanagibas pettys....pretty much if you can buy it, people want it! Except the santoku...


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## jaybett

tk59 said:


> Most people that I know, including myself started with a santoku and no longer use it (pettys and gyutos seem to be the consensus.). This includes people that don't own more than a handful of knives. Because of this, I think it's a useful question to ask.



You bring up a reasonable concern. The questions and statements I brought up do reflect bias. 

Jay


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## Benuser

SpikeC said:


> That profile is a very good match for my Takeda gyuto!



You may find a similar profile with the Hiromoto AS 190mm Santoku; other have a flatter, almost Nakiri-like profile


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## G-rat

This is the most beautiful santoku I've seen: http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...in-hide-180mm-white-2-hon-kasumi-santoku.html

Profile is excellent. FandF look immaculate...


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## Andrew H

No, that santoku is probably not the best. Also without reading a review from someone I trust, or using it in person, I wouldn't buy a knife that expensive.


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## jaybett

slowtyper said:


> the tip on a cleaver is actually super functional. It's different, but very useful.



I agree



slowtyper said:


> I disagree with the poster who was saying that people here just like gyutos and nothing else....to me that is way off since people here love having suji's cleaver nikiri's yanagibas pettys....pretty much if you can buy it, people want it! Except the santoku...



If I am the poster you are referring, I didn't say that people here, like gytuos and nothing else. I did say that when there is a question, about a knife that isn't a gyuto, be it a cleaver, nakiri, or santoku, that the knee jerk reaction of the forum is to ask why the person wants that type of knife, and then compare the strengths of the guyto, against the perceived weaknesses of other types of knives. For cleavers and nakiri's its the lack of a pointy tip. As you pointed out the cleaver does have an effective tip. Santokus its an awkward tip, and that it doesn't do a great job at any task. There are gyutos that have santoku tips, are they somehow inferior to gyutos with pointy tips? What general purpose knife does as good as job as the specialized knife?

It isn't about loving or hating a knife, its about does the knife meet the needs of the person? A 270 or 240 gyuto would be a bit cramped in small kitchen. What if the person wanted the ability of a 270mm gyuto to handle large volume of prep, but in a smaller package? Now a cleaver or nakiri makes sense. What if a person doesn't have a lot of prep, but wants a small general purpose knife? A santoku could do that job. 

Jay


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## shankster

It's gonna be difficult to recommend any style of knife to the OP without more specific information.Carbon or SS,home or pro cook,wa or western handle etc etc..


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## Andrew H

jaybett said:


> If I am the poster you are referring, I didn't say that people here, like gytuos and nothing else. I did say that when there is a question, about a knife that isn't a gyuto, be it a cleaver, nakiri, or santoku, that the knee jerk reaction of the forum is to ask why the person wants that type of knife, and then compare the strengths of the guyto, against the perceived weaknesses of other types of knives. For cleavers and nakiri's its the lack of a pointy tip. As you pointed out the cleaver does have an effective tip. Santokus its an awkward tip, and that it doesn't do a great job at any task. There are gyutos that have santoku tips, are they somehow inferior to gyutos with pointy tips? What general purpose knife does as good as job as the specialized knife?
> 
> It isn't about loving or hating a knife, its about does the knife meet the needs of the person? A 270 or 240 gyuto would be a bit cramped in small kitchen. What if the person wanted the ability of a 270mm gyuto to handle large volume of prep, but in a smaller package? Now a cleaver or nakiri makes sense. What if a person doesn't have a lot of prep, but wants a small general purpose knife? A santoku could do that job.
> 
> Jay



I think the reason we usually ask why someone wants a 'x' instead of a gyuto is that most new posters aren't familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of a santoku vs. nakiri vs. cleaver vs. gyuto. The gyuto is probably the best all around knife because it is lighter than a cleaver and can do tip work that I find difficult with a cleaver. A nakiri is a good vegetable knife but there aren't nearly as many options for good nakiris as there are gyutos. Santokus are fine but as Eamon said they don't do certain things as well as gyutos. 
Could a santoku do everything a gyuto does? Sure. Is it the best tool for any job other than splitting big hunks of cheese? If so I haven't found one.

You seem to be a fan of the santoku, what do you think it does better than a gyuto?


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## slowtyper

To be honest I still don't know how to pronounce gyuto...


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## mpukas

I find it ammusing that the OP has only made 1 post, and this thread has turned into 7 pages...

edit - I am enjoying the discussion.


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## SpikeC

The knife he is asking about is a Tanaka, The Best Things has it with a little turquoise in addition to the black micarta on the handle for $100 less. Those have R2 cores I believe, it should be a very nice knife for its style.
Or SG2, I'm not sure on the core steel, butt it is pretty good.


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## Pensacola Tiger

The Wusthof santokus are part of their "Asian" series and are fairly thin. I just took a caliper to my old Wusthof santoku and the spine measures 2.3 mm at the heel. That's identical to the spine measurement of a Shun. So any performance improvement will have to come from the steel and the grind.

The SG-2 steel of the Shun Kaji will be an improvement over the Wusthof. A little harder to sharpen, but it will hold an edge longer.

The santoku sold by Rutlands has the same SG-2 steel as in the Shun Kaji, so there's no advantage there, except for looks, and it is almost twice the price. 

You asked for alternatives, so putting looks aside, this Tojiro DP damascus santoku will give you better performance than the Wusthof, almost as good as the Shun or Rutlands, and at less than £95, is a pretty good deal.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000UAQORI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I've assumed that you are located in the UK, if I am in error, I apologize.

Rick





Bryan said:


> I am looking for an amazing santoku knife - I currently have a Wusthof santoku that gets shaving sharp but not very attractive and a little too thick.
> 
> I am considering either a Shun Kaji or this offering from Rutlands in the UK which has 64 layers wrapped arround a SG-2 core:
> 
> http://www.rutlands.co.uk/knives/ki...186/micarta-hocho-santoku-all-purpose---165mm
> 
> Any advice or other suggestions would be most welcome..


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## dragonlord

From my very limited pov, the santoku is better for chopping and slicing sticky veg like potato because of the dimples in the side of the blade, while doing the same chopping with a gyuto or chefs knife can leave you with hard to move slices of those vegetables on the blade. I appreciate that that could just be a matter of technique or thickness of cut, but it's the reason I pull out the cheap santoku over my new gyuto


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## tk59

dragonlord said:


> From my very limited pov, the santoku is better for chopping and slicing sticky veg like potato because of the dimples in the side of the blade, while doing the same chopping with a gyuto or chefs knife can leave you with hard to move slices of those vegetables on the blade. I appreciate that that could just be a matter of technique or thickness of cut, but it's the reason I pull out the cheap santoku over my new gyuto


While that may be the case, your lack of sticking on the santoku is most likely due to the thickness of the blade near the edge. What santoku and gyuto are we talking about?


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## cookinstuff

Felt I would weigh in on a few things. Some basic knife prep work you would do I guess. Mirepoix, fine dice, julienne, brunoise. Chicken break down, striploin breakdown, whole fish cleaning, and some line work like slicing proteins.

Mirepoix- I personally find a gyuto to be a great asset when going through large amounts of vegetable prep. I feel a vegetable cleaver will serve you just as well if not better. Basically, just because of the scoop of the cleaver. I find the cleaver excels in julienne, brunoise, but the gyuto will probably get your fine dice a little bit better, the thin profile at the tip creates less drag going both ways through your vegetables. So, your onion will stay intact better and won't get "pulled" apart by your knife sticking. The cleaver I would say is the safer knife because of it's height.
Oh ya, the santoku, no thanks in this category.

Chicken breakdown- ugh, none of the gyuto, cleaver, santoku are gonna do you much good here, get a boning knife, a honesuki or I use a hankotsu. I think if anything for a home cook a good petty will do fine, just be really careful separating bones/joints, or switch to your gyuto. Removing the breasts I do not like using a gyuto for though, chinese chefs do a great job with the vegetable cleaver. Martin Yan can clean a chicken no problem with his vegetable cleaver, but you aren't Martin Yan. 

Fish- Small fish cleaning the tip of the gyuto can make due, a suji can do well with skinning after it's bones are out. But, if cleaning whole fish like salmon, a workhouse gyuto will do the job start to finish if you want, gut, bone, filet. Cleaver, nope, Santoku, hmmm I guess, but you are gonna want something longer than 200mm to skin the fish. But to breakdown and filet a santoku will do ya.


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## cookinstuff

Striploin- Forget these three knives and get a boning knife, a suji or petty can do the job as well. You need a knife with a sharp tip to get under your silverskin and remove it, I use a hankotsu it's single bevel, so removing silverskin is easy to get under and not cut up through. Trying to do this with a santoku would be ridiculous, a cleaver likewise. A gyuto can definitely clean down a strip no problem, but I find its wider profile isn't desired for removing the skin. Cutting your steaks use a suji or a gyuto long enough that you can pull through withough sawing, cleaver and santoku are way out for this.

Line work- ok you just let your protein rest, and it's time to slice and serve, get out your 210 petty that you don't care about (because your buddy is gonna knock it on the ground on Saturday night), or if you got a nice luxurious station keep a heavy workhouse gyuto for just in case, and a nice slicer. I keep a utility holster with basically a 150 boning knife, and a 210 suji/petty, in a pinch I can chop, mince, slice, cut bags, plastic zip ties, open boxes, so streamlining your knife lineup can vary depending on work/home, environment plays massive part.

In summary, when you got nothing to do, and aren't busy. Oh ya and you need to cut some mushrooms, just sliced mushrooms, you know the plain little buttons, grab your santoku and get your santoku on homeboy. Oh, but if it's shiitakes or something else, get your damn gyuto ya numpty.


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## cookinstuff

Oh, for the person who said the granton edge stops sticking, I am not sure. I do not own any granton edge'd knives, but I can assure you it is each knife not the knife type that depends on sticking. I have several gyutos that will not stick to a potato if you tried, a good convex grind can reduce sticking, some say things like damascus and mirror finishes help I don't know myself. Also, if your wedging your potato before you are even through it, you aren't going to stick hehe. There is so many factors that are a mystery before you purchase a knife that may reveal itself to you only when it's in your hand. After my massive rant I must put a disclaimer, I don't even own a santoku. I have worked with many people who have, some love them for cutting things like mushrooms, cucumbers and other soft veg. where length isn't an issue, and others have moved on to other things, usually a good gyuto and specialized knives- boning, bread, slicing. But myself, my bag is way too packed full of knives to throw a santoku in their for cutting chives.


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## dragonlord

I bought a cheap santoku from this offer to see how it works as a knife and I own a carboNext


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## Bryan

Dear All,

Many thanks for taking the time to share your *vast* knowledge. Clearly I should have added to original question that this knife wont be my only knife. I have four Wusthofs, three Kasumis, along with some David Mellor knifes I received as a gift: 

http://www.davidmellordesign.com/acatalog/David_Mellor_Kitchen_Knives_Stainless_Steel.html 

The Mellor knifes sharpen well bet dont keep an edge long. BTW he make awesome table cutlery:

http://www.davidmellordesign.com/acatalog/David_Mellor_City_Cutlery.html

I have a family of six and I do most of the cooking as a keen armature cook. My chopping boards are standard domestic sizes approx. 12x18. I purchased most of these knifes about seven years ago when I got tired of supermarket knives.

My go to knife has always been the santoku hence my desire to now replace it along with my other Wusthof knifes. I find the 17cm santoku is used for about 70% of my cutting, with a larger Ksaumi chef knife and wusthof paring knife being used for 20%, I use the kasumi bread knife and the David Mellor carving knife for about 10%; my other knifes are mostly used by my wife. For the veg I use: onions, Carrots, leeks, squash , cabbage etc I have no problems with the length of the santoku: I use the carving knife for large melons.

I loudly hear what you say and will purchase acquire a gyuto as part of my Wusthof upgrades (I will look at previous threads for this solution). I would however still like to upgrade my santoku. From your silence about shuns I will assume these are out of the equation. I will explore the links supplied in your replies.

Again, MANY MANY thanks for taking the time to reply, I have already learnt so much from this forum.

Bryan,
PS - Yes I live in the UK - we have to pay import duty/ and 20% vat on US imports. I struggle to find specialist Japanese knives in the UK.


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## dav

Hi Bryan I'm in the UK and to be honest wasn't impressed with either the limited selection from the 2 or 3 main UK retailers or their inflated prices.

I ordered a lovely Damascus Moritaka Gyuto from Chefsknives to go in the US and am in the process of ordering a Deba from Shinichi Watanabe (Watanabe blades) brilliant service from both and shipping and the 28.5% VAT and customs tax (rip off UK lol) still mean't I'm getting a decent deal and more importantly can choose what I want.

Erm retailers are quite "helpful" when it comes to the "extra" payment :thumbsup:


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## DanB

slowtyper said:


> To be honest I still don't know how to pronounce gyuto...



The g and y form one sound together; don't say gee-u-toe. It's gyu (and u is long too). Hope that helps.


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## Chifunda

DanB said:


> The g and y form one sound together; don't say gee-u-toe. It's gyu (and u is long too). Hope that helps.



Click on the speaker icon for pronunciation.


http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml


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## cookinstuff

I like Mizuno Tanrenjos little santoku on Japanese chef knife in blue 2 steel. Atleast I think I do, I have seen the white one in action, way too reactive, but the blue 2 gyuto is great. So, I would have to assume the santoku would be no different. Tojiro makes some nice inexpensive little knives in white with a kuro ichi finish, my friend has a nakiri he got for 40, maybe they make a santoku as well. Either way, if you like the santoku and you have other knives that fill the gaps then why not. But, I would look at other places, expense doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna be good. A lot of japanese makers will supply a cheaper handle and sell a lot of knives under $100 that are still real performers. Good luck and have fun.


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## BobCat

Chifunda said:


> Click on the speaker icon for pronunciation.
> 
> 
> http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml



WOW thanks for that link! I use my Masamoto Santoku often in my home kitchen, but I also use a 180cm Mizuno Gyuto even more. It works for me as it is small with a good pointy tip. And then I discovered Pettys...:wink:


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## BobCat

BobCat said:


> WOW thanks for that link! I use my Masamoto Santoku often in my home kitchen, but I also use a 180cm Mizuno Gyuto even more. It works for me as it is small with a good pointy tip. And then I discovered Pettys...:wink:



Oops my bad...the Masamoto is 180 and the Mizuno is 210. It's all good!


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## tk59

Based on your original choice, I would pick the Inazuma line from JCK. If you don't mind less flashy and smallish but nicely shaped handles, I would consider the Kanetsugu Pro M also from JCK.


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## Andrew H

tk59 said:


> Based on your original choice, I would pick the Inazuma line from JCK. If you don't mind less flashy and smallish but nicely shaped handles, I would consider the Kanetsugu Pro M also from JCK.



Both would be good choices. Since you're in the UK using JCK (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/) makes sense.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Bryan, 

You might want to have Will Catchside make you a custom knife, since you are practically in his backyard:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forumdisplay.php/78-Catcheside-Cutlery

Rick


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## TB_London

JCK is good for the UK as shipping is cheap and usually comes through without HMRC taking a cut. Performance wise this should outperform what you have at the moment, but the HT on the White #2 core isn't great so it's prone to chipping and the cladding is quite reactive. 

http://www.niwaki.com/store/nashi-houcho-japanese-knives/

If you want quality I'd contact WillC and get a custom


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## Justin0505

Another big + 1 for a Catcheside custom. Wills prices are still "get to know you / get you hooked" low and he has been very receptive to listening to my crazy ideas and making a knife that fits them better than anything that you will ever see listed from a retailer.... Wait till you guys see the project we've been dreaming up... Minds will be BLOWN (hint: even Andy might be impressed). 

OK, also I've read the last 9 pages of santoku hate/love and I just have to throw my 2¢ in. I know that this will might be sacrilege on a site dedicated to tools, but I just wanted to remind everyone that performance is determined by a combination of the tool AND the skill of its operator. When we get to this level of tools, the differences between one type of mid length multi-purpose knife (santoku) and another (petty/small gyuto) will be almost insignificant compared to a user's skill, familiarity, and personal affinity for one. 

How many times have I been on a ride and seen a group of guys on this season's hottest full carbon race bikes get smoked by someone on an 8yr old aluminum framed "training bike. "
Or been at the range and watched a "tactical" noob with a $2k Kimber or something plastic and fantastic get embarassd by a old timer with an old single action revolver. 

Just be careful what you turn your nose up at, because there's always someone out there that has spent more time on skill than trash talk and options and will make you look like a fool.


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## tk59

In one sentence you are saying that you are going to blow minds with a knife design and in the next you are essentially saying that at this level, there is no point in arguing about what is "better." That's funny. I think the arguments are part of what makes a forum live.


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## El Pescador

To each his own. In the right context, a santoku is a great knife.


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## TB_London

If I wanted a Santoku the Shig that Maxim has on his site would be calling my name.... Looks like it would be pretty close to the best Santoku


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## SpikeC

+1!


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## Johnny.B.Good

TB_London said:


> If I wanted a Santoku the Shig that Maxim has on his site would be calling my name.... Looks like it would be pretty close to the best Santoku



+1 if damascus is your thing.

If not, then I would get this:

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...in-hide-180mm-white-2-hon-kasumi-santoku.html


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## G-rat

Johnny.B.Good said:


> +1 if damascus is your thing.
> 
> If not, then I would get this:
> 
> http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...in-hide-180mm-white-2-hon-kasumi-santoku.html



Seriously I have no idea how these knives perform in hand but based on what I have bought from Jon, the reviewed quality of hide's single bevels and gyutos, and Just how damn beautiful that knife is for the price aside from the fact that it isn't stainless which the OP seemed to want, this knife looks like a seriously good one. It or the heiji santoku on JKI would be killer santoku buys...with the hide maybe being a better value for the price and size.


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## Johnny.B.Good

Or maybe this:

http://www.epicureanedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=86464


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## Justin0505

tk59 said:


> In one sentence you are saying that you are going to blow minds with a knife design and in the next you are essentially saying that at this level, there is no point in arguing about what is "better." That's funny. I think the arguments are part of what makes a forum live.



I never said that I'm above getting caught up in gear and cool looking or feeling stuff (I sure would be wasting my time on here if I was). Just because I know that there are people that will cut circles around me with a $50 Forshner santoku, doesn't mean that there is "no point" to my knife rack full of fancy knives. For me, they have a point and I LIKE them better than other knives, but I think that it's very easy to shorten the phrase "I LIKE this better" to this "IS better." 

When the OP, asks a question about a santoku and the post gets filled with 9 pages of "what type of knife is better" and not "what's the best SANTOKU for the OP", I fail to see how that is "what makes a forum live." -It looks to me like people getting OT and confusing their own opinion with universal truth and picking sides in some absurd, closed-minded rivalry. 
I see that as losing sight of the fact that "better", past a certain level, is mostly relative and that what's better to the poster is a santoku. My recommendation to go custom was in direct response that he will get the best possible knife for him; not that his knife will be better than all other knives in that category. I think that there is huge value to getting something that you think is really special and will "blow minds" - just don't think that it will be any better, or make you any better than anyone else and whatever it is that they happen to like. 

Or, if I wanted to say this w/ 1/5th the characters and 1/100th the pissing and moaning, I could have just quoted pesky:



El Pescador said:


> To each his own. In the right context, a santoku is a great knife.


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## TB_London

Advantage of the Shig is its in Europe and so saves about $100 on shipping, duty and handling fees which an expensive knife from the US would incur.


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## G-rat

TB_London said:


> Advantage of the Shig is its in Europe and so saves about $100 on shipping, duty and handling fees which an expensive knife from the US would incur.



Ahhh...forgot about that part...that's a pretty serious consideration...shig all the way.


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## scott6452

TB_London said:


> If I wanted a Santoku the Shig that Maxim has on his site would be calling my name.... Looks like it would be pretty close to the best Santoku



Sorry i must have missed it, whats the site/link for this?


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## Andrew H

It was here: http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Shigefusa-Kitaeji-Santoku-200mm-p/706.htm 
Someone lucky picked it up.


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## gentlecook

scott6452 said:


> Sorry i must have missed it, whats the site/link for this?



just check this thread
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5560-Shigefusa-Available/page2


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## Peco

This thread is so funny. I know we have a passion for knifes but sometimes it's just way to much. Why shouldn't a santoku work great? I have used one for several hours in a pro-kitchen and have been very pleased. As I have said earlier, it sometimes seems like lenght is a big issue unless it's a Carter. Testosterone? What matters in the end is that you are able to get the job done - and hopefully be comfy with what you use.

This is not a santoku but I think these videos illustrate my point:

This guy use what we all would call a ****** $20 knife:
http://youtu.be/qBZd933UUR8

And this guy got a nice looking "expensive" Mioroshi knife/sword ... doing the same task ... *no offence theory!*
http://youtu.be/Jhsj1d9SGwM

The guy with the small crappy knife obviously have better technique and can filet 3 whole salmons within 2 minutes (and video is not edited). The mioroshi handled 1 salmon in the same time (video is even edited). And who looks comfy and relaxed?

So to compare with the santoku vs other knifes: a santoku can be a great tool. A gyuto can be great if you like longer knifes, larger bellys etc. It's a personal preference and both will get the job done. Damn, I need to go buy another santoku


----------



## maxim

Nice point Peco lus1:


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## Lucretia

I like my santoku. There are a lot of things I use it for where a tip is not required and would get in the way. If I need to peel an orange, I reach over, open the drawer, and pull out a paring or petty knife. Presto chango, the "tip problem" is solved. If there's something that needs a longer knife, I get out the gyuto. Yes, a nakiri could possibly be a replacement for my santoku, but I don't have a nakiri. Maybe some day I'll get one and use it, too. For now I have a santoku, and it's enjoyable to use, holds a great edge, and is easy to sharpen. 

Another point--seems like many of the posts say "I have a cheap-arse santoku and it's a piece of junk." Well, if you have a cheap-arse _anything_ it's liable to be a piece of junk. 

Some replies act like the santoku is going to be the only knife one is allowed to have in the kitchen. That's not the case for me, so I pull out whichever knife will perform the task at hand with the most comfort & ease, uses the least space and has the smallest amount of cleanup. A lot of the time the knife selected is the santoku.

If you don't like a santoku, don't get one. If you do like them, there's nothing wrong with that. Just find a knife that's comfortable to use, is well made, and keep it sharp.


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## Peco

Just sold the one I had - and ordered a brand new one ... can't wait for it to arrive


----------



## BobCat

lus1:



Lucretia said:


> I like my santoku. There are a lot of things I use it for where a tip is not required and would get in the way. If I need to peel an orange, I reach over, open the drawer, and pull out a paring or petty knife. Presto chango, the "tip problem" is solved. If there's something that needs a longer knife, I get out the gyuto. Yes, a nakiri could possibly be a replacement for my santoku, but I don't have a nakiri. Maybe some day I'll get one and use it, too. For now I have a santoku, and it's enjoyable to use, holds a great edge, and is easy to sharpen.
> 
> Another point--seems like many of the posts say "I have a cheap-arse santoku and it's a piece of junk." Well, if you have a cheap-arse _anything_ it's liable to be a piece of junk.
> 
> Some replies act like the santoku is going to be the only knife one is allowed to have in the kitchen. That's not the case for me, so I pull out whichever knife will perform the task at hand with the most comfort & ease, uses the least space and has the smallest amount of cleanup. A lot of the time the knife selected is the santoku.
> 
> If you don't like a santoku, don't get one. If you do like them, there's nothing wrong with that. Just find a knife that's comfortable to use, is well made, and keep it sharp.


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## maxim

My most used knife in the kitchen now i Santoku, Nakiri and Petty. I have plenty of big knives but it seems to me just easier to reach for smaller knife.


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## Peco

Sounds like you're not a pro Maxim :ninja: ... small knifes :knifed: ... wait, I just ordered a 18 cm santoku myself - damn I guess I fall into your category too :whistling:


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## gadgetguy9000

Hello Theory.

Can you provide any good academic citations that support your theory?

Thanks



ThEoRy said:


> Kind of, but there's more to the story.
> 
> It was originally marketed towards young Japanese housewives around 1930s-1950ish when western food started becoming popular in Japan as the hip new western knife that was capable of handling meat, fish and veggies. Therefore three virtues. "Hey ladies, wanna be hip and cool and eat like like westerners? Then you need this new knife. You don't need specialized knives like deba, yanagiba and usuba anymore when this one knife does it all!!"
> 
> So there's actually 3 sets of "three virtues". Slice, dice, mince. Meat, fish, veg. And Deba, yanagi, usuba. This ************* knife has 9 ************* virtues yall! Buy this **** now!
> 
> What do I see there? Marketing talk. Nothing more. And now we've come full circle here in the West. "Wanna have cool Japanese knives ladies? You need a santoku!" That's where I see a lot of the disdain towards this knife coming from as well. The marketing backlash.
> 
> All that being said, I have two santoku. Do I take them to work in my kit and use them? No.


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## chinacats

gadgetguy9000 said:


> Hello Theory.
> 
> Can you provide any good academic citations that support your theory?
> 
> Thanks



Dude, this is the internet...what's your theory?

Oh, and the Furi Rachael Ray 7" Edgy Santoku Knife is definitely the best santoku knife out there. :tease:


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## ThEoRy

i AM the academic citation.


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## rami_m

ThEoRy said:


> i AM the academic citation.



I endorse this statement.


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## Keith Sinclair

That JNS is a great looking Santoku. Jon's site JKI has some nice Santoku's. The Gesshin Uraku has a high thin behind the edge grind good blade for the price. A-Frames is another site for quality blades.

Can't say much as it's 11 pages long already lengthy. Just make a couple points, the Santoku design is a shorter version of more traditional Japanese cutters longer in length which are flatter & more drop nosed than western style . The Santoku is a hugely successful knife design. Not just because so many have been sold from crap to finest steels & grinds, most knife makers both Japanese & now even European have a few in their lineup. No matter if you are polarized how you feel about them, cannot argue their success.

To me a bad design is all those full heel bolsters, some very thick on western chef's knives. Makes heel sharpening impossible, over time screwing up the shape of the blade. I cannot believe they still make them soft steel, thick behind the edge, misguided tradition.

I just do not buy that the Santoku is a bad design. I can do certain types of tip work with a Santoku or Cleaver, Watch a skilled Chinese chef use the tip on a cleaver. There are certain prep jobs where a gyuto or petty works better. I would agree that a gyuto is a best all around blade. Putting out banquet's close to 40 years, almost 30 years totally hooked on Japanese knives Gyuto's, Sugi's & Yanagiba's. Never used a Santoku at work not because didn't like them didn't feel need for one. Did have a longer flatter Japanese carbon gyuto with more drop at the tip than most gyuto's loved that knife for massive amounts of prep work.

Now I am a old fart home cook have & use a Santoku.


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## rami_m

keithsaltydog said:


> That JNS is a great looking Santoku. Jon's site JKI has some nice Santoku's. The Gesshin Uraku has a high thin behind the edge grind good blade for the price. A-Frames is another site for quality blades.
> 
> Can't say much as it's 11 pages long already lengthy. Just make a couple points, the Santoku design is a shorter version of more traditional Japanese cutters longer in length which are flatter & more drop nosed than western style . The Santoku is a hugely successful knife design. Not just because so many have been sold from crap to finest steels & grinds, most knife makers both Japanese & now even European have a few in their lineup. No matter if you are polarized how you feel about them, cannot argue their success.
> 
> To me a bad design is all those full heel bolsters, some very thick on western chef's knives. Makes heel sharpening impossible, over time screwing up the shape of the blade. I cannot believe they still make them soft steel, thick behind the edge, misguided tradition.
> 
> I just do not buy that the Santoku is a bad design. I can do certain types of tip work with a Santoku or Cleaver, Watch a skilled Chinese chef use the tip on a cleaver. There are certain prep jobs where a gyuto or petty works better. I would agree that a gyuto is a best all around blade. Putting out banquet's close to 40 years, almost 30 years totally hooked on Japanese knives Gyuto's, Sugi's & Yanagiba's. Never used a Santoku at work not because didn't like them didn't feel need for one. Did have a longer flatter Japanese carbon gyuto with more drop at the tip than most gyuto's loved that knife for massive amounts of prep work.
> 
> Now I am a old fart home cook have & use a Santoku.



To me a better question would be a santoku vs shorty gyuto or funayuki as they are the direct competition


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## Keith Sinclair

Like Funayuki blades too. Some have the flatter profile, more board contact for forward push cuts and chopping. A lot less mainstream than Santoku's . Used Cleavers at work too. Still have several home cleavers.


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## Timthebeaver

A funayuki is a smaller, lighter, thinner deba - i.e. single bevel.

I can't help but think it's a term that been hijacked for marketing purposes, e.g. "_funayuki gyuto_", in the same manner that "kiritsuke" is increasingly (wrongly) used to describe a gyuto with a clipped tip.


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## Mute-on

rami_m said:


> I endorse this statement.



So do I. Motion passed. Thank you Mr Secretary :wink:


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## Matus

Timthebeaver said:


> A funayuki is a smaller, lighter, thinner deba - i.e. single bevel.
> 
> I can't help but think it's a term that been hijacked for marketing purposes, e.g. "_funayuki gyuto_", in the same manner that "kiritsuke" is increasingly (wrongly) used to describe a gyuto with a clipped tip.



I would guess that Murray Carter is "responsible" for being first to use the name funayuki in the incorrect way (as he does with wabocho). But I can not help but admit that his funayuki knives rock and are extremely practical.


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## XooMG

"Funayuki" is used in Japan for both the conventional single-bevel style and a less-conventional double-bevel style (mostly from Tosa but I've seen them from elsewhere too). Murray's use of it may not match what you read from Korin, but he is not the first or only to make double-bevel funayuki.


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## gadgetguy9000

chinacats said:


> Dude, this is the internet...what's your theory?



My theory is that the internet is filled with people who make stuff up or form a belief based on something they read that was written by someone else who doesn't know anything, simply because it conforms to their _a priori_ views on the subject. They then repeat the fiction, which is repeated by other like-minded people, and so on. When challenged, these people typically retreat to a defense based on some logical fallacy, usually an _ad hominen_ attack, but an "appeal to authority", in this case. The authority is based on popularity or perhaps skill in an unrelated area in the present example. I realize this is the internet and we are in a wiki age where citation to verifiable sources is passé and where opinion and fact are interchangeable, but it is a shame because beginners come to a place like this to learn. Instead they become misinformed when people simply parrot some fiction they have read elsewhere. 

As an aside, this is not a new phenomenon. Mapmakers often made maps based simply on other's maps. California was drawn as an island long after it was known not to be, due to this copy and repeat process.

I believe there is corollary here to Godwins Law. It seems that as an online discussion about Santokus grows longer, you are increasingly likely to find references to: (a) fear of points; and/or (b) Japanese housewives in some decade or other in the 20th century.

I wonder if these people believe that Steven Yan uses a cleaver because he fears a pointed knife.

The best Santokus I have are a 210 Takeda "gyuto" and a Carter "funayuki".


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## chinacats

gadgetguy9000 said:


> My theory is that the internet is filled with people who make stuff up or form a belief based on something they read that was written by someone else who doesn't know anything, simply because it conforms to their _a priori_ views on the subject. They then repeat the fiction, which is repeated by other like-minded people, and so on. When challenged, these people typically retreat to a defense based on some logical fallacy, usually an _ad hominen attack, but an "appeal to authority", in this case. The authority is based on popularity or perhaps skill in an unrelated area in the present example. I realize this is the internet and we are in a wiki age where citation to verifiable sources is passé and where opinion and fact are interchangeable, but it is a shame because beginners come to a place like this to learn. Instead they become misinformed when people simply parrot some fiction they have read elsewhere.
> 
> As an aside, this is not a new phenomenon. Mapmakers often made maps based simply on other's maps. California was drawn as an island long after it was known not to be, due to this copy and repeat process.
> 
> I believe there is corollary here to Godwins Law. It seems that as an online discussion about Santokus grows longer, you are increasingly likely to find references to: (a) fear of points; and/or (b) Japanese housewives in some decade or other in the 20th century.
> 
> I wonder if these people believe that Steven Yan uses a cleaver because he fears a pointed knife.
> 
> The best Santokus I have are a 210 Takeda "gyuto" and a Carter "funayuki"._


_

I pretty sure we all understand not to believe everything broadcast on the internet (no need to expound upon this), but you never answered the question. 

So, what's your theory??? 

You came here to either provide a different answer or instigate an argument--where you going with this?_


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## XooMG

chinacats said:


> I pretty sure we all understand not to believe everything broadcast on the internet (no need to expound upon this), but you never answered the question.
> 
> So, what's your theory???
> 
> You came here to either provide a different answer or instigate an argument--where you going with this?


I think the point was rather reasonable. There are assertions of history (1930s marketing to women). I'm curious as well what statements like this are founded on. I do not think anyone is under obligation to posit alternate explanations in order to question the veracity of one guy's claims.


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## chinacats

NP, but question with some reason. Do some research on your own if you are interested and either point out an opposing view or take what you read with a grain of salt. Rick likely knows more about knives than most, the fact that he hasn't done a dissertation on the subject is irrelevent. As clearly stated by gadgetguy9k that anything you read on the internet should be read as just that--internet sourced information. If you are looking for something backed by academic research then you are doing your search in the wrong part of the internet; I suggest you try *.edu.

Cheers


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## gadgetguy9000

The thread is titled 'Is this the best Santoku knife?'

I wrote 'The best Santokus I have are a 210 Takeda "gyuto" and a Carter "funayuki".'

How is trying to understand or correct a statement instigating an argument? I find it strange that the propagation of misinformation is seen as a lesser sin than the questioning of it.



chinacats said:


> So, what's your theory???



Since you used three question marks, I will tell you my theory.

Over time, various knife shapes are experimented with. Variations on: more or less belly; more or less blade height; longer or shorter; more acute or less acute bevels; differing degrees of convexity, concavity, thickness; different steels; different hardnesses; and I am sure several other dimensions. 

Knives referred to as Santokus can possess a wide range of combinations of these characteristics. However, out of all of the potential combinations of knife properties, for some reason the term "Santoku" seems to really bother a segment of the forum community. Different forums have different rates of hatred for the Santoku. It seems that if you call the knife something else, there is less hatred for it (see the mostly positive reactions to Takeda gyutos or banno bunkas, for example.) 

It seems to me that Santokus share only two main physical characteristics. They tend to be 210mm or less in length and tend to be taller in profile. Since Santokus can possess a rather wide range of the remaining physical characteristics, more or less belly for example, to criticize them as a singular implement seems strange. The only remaining property that links the knives is the term "Santoku." Perhaps the hatred is simply misplaced distaste for Rachael Ray.


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## XooMG

chinacats said:


> NP, but question with some reason. Do some research and either point out an opposing view or take what you read with a grain of salt. Rick likely knows more about knives than most, the fact that he hasn't done a dissertation on the subject is irrelevent. As clearly stated by gadgetguy9k that anything you read on the internet should be read as just that--internet sourced information. If you are looking for something backed by academic research then you are doing your search in the wrong part of the internet; I suggest you try ???.edu.
> 
> Cheers


Burden of proof is always on the claimant. I am under no obligation to try to dig around for obscure marketing literature, even if some of it might be available in Japanese in my country (Taiwan was Japanese-occupied during the mid-late Meiji). Besides the obvious sexism in many posts (I get the impression it's common among the cooks on these boards), there's no evidence offered that supports the claim that it was marketed to anyone in particular. I know many, many sources (many of which are blind copies as gadgetguy9000 mentioned) that say it grew quickly in popularity during the Meiji (no immediate source specifies precisely when) in part due to the introduction of gyuto and its marriage with the nakiri. I have not dug up anything of early manufacturer marketing that pushes it to anyone in particular, and I'd love to see some.

There is a lot of false expertise and not everyone has access to good information sources, and most people around here (including some very matter-of-fact voices) lack the language skill to read or even pronounce half the words they talk about, so how are they to challenge claims? To say one thinks santoku is a marketing gimmick word is one thing; to present a historical story about its origin with no support for details is quite another.


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## chinacats

I like the shape, just not usually long enough...

:2cents:


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## XooMG

And for what it's worth, I'm not trying to be bellicose or anything...I gave consideration a while ago to questioning some of the common wisdom of the boards, but my cynicism and pessimism convinced me it'd be futile to push against the tide. I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment.


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## Keith Sinclair

Yes the Funayuki & Kiritsuke morfed into DB blades. My Yoshimitsu Santoku 176mm has a more gradual drop in the spine, think it looked similar to one of Stepan's older Carters. The Yoshimitsu is 3mm at the spine which only gets thinner at the tip. It has a high grind and a extremely thin edge. It was forged by guys in their 80's & 90's. It cuts so fine.

High ground bevels & spines that drop more at the tip are not a new thing. I have restored old Japanese blades found at swapmeet both SB & DB . Interesting blades deff. over 50 years old. One of my favorite work knives found at swapmeet old blade carbon steel high grind and more drop at the tip than western style 248mm really wore down that blade with use. It started my conviction that the Japanese really now how to make knives that cut well.


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## gadgetguy9000

I hadn't realized until it was pointed out to me that this was a very old thread. I googled the site and didn't check the dates, when I was researching a potential purchase. I didn't mean to pick a fight. I think Rick is very skilled with a knife - I showed my wife one of his snapper videos this past weekend. Nothing personal, sorry if it came off that way.

J


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## chinacats

gadgetguy9000 said:


> I hadn't realized until it was pointed out to me that this was a very old thread. I googled the site and didn't check the dates, when I was researching a potential purchase. I didn't mean to pick a fight. I think Rick is very skilled with a knife - I showed my wife one of his snapper videos this past weekend. Nothing personal, sorry if it came off that way.
> 
> J



You're good, I was just being a PIA. Agreed on the Takeda gyuto being the best "santoku."

Cheers


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## ThEoRy

I can't find it anymore but there's some Japanese blogs I had translated years ago which talked about the origin. I didn't mean to sound so abrupt. I do that sometimes, no harm meant.


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## daveb

The best Santoku is easily my 180 Shig. It came with it's own chick!


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## rami_m

daveb said:


> The best Santoku is easily my 180 Shig. It came with it's own chick!



Was it an Aussie chick? &#128541; &#128513;


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## daveb

She said her name was Sheila...


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