# Recomend a good natural finishing stone



## Godslayer (Jan 28, 2016)

So my current line up is 220( never been used, not even once) a 1000/2000/5000 naniwa and a 8000 shapton glass, i have a leather strop and some micron paste. I am looking at buying a good finishing stone(mainly for polishing) that would be a jnat. I honestly dont understand jnats but have noticed levels on some sites so 5+ is what im looking for. I feel finishing on a jnat would be zen and may make me feel the edge is better, resulting in a placebo effect. I wont spend a $1000 on a stone though. I have been thinking about buying a second from maxim when one appears. But would like to know if a good less expensive option exists. If possible i would like to avoid us vendors as the us/cad is garbage atm #iloveit


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## ynot1985 (Jan 28, 2016)

I have recently dabbed into Jnats.. are you looking for a finisher for a more refined edge or are after a polisher that gives a kasumi finish as syn nats tend to be give more of a mirror finish?


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## YG420 (Jan 28, 2016)

I recently picked up a hideriyama stone which is a very good finishing jnat in my opinion.


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## KimBronnum (Jan 28, 2016)

I recomend one of the Aiwatanii koppas JNS has. I own two and they are amazing value for money. 
- Kim


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## Cashn (Jan 28, 2016)

I'd recommend emailing Maksim. He's got a lot on his plate at the moment and may not have what you are looking for currently but he's very helpful. Let him know what you currently have and what your looking for in a jnat. He also has some good wiki's for general info. You honestly have to try a couple to see what they're about. It's not a very cut and dry type of thing. Especially without being able to try and see them first. I use an aoto>hideriyama>ohira myself, occasionally a monzento and omura before the aoto. Some may think the ohira is too fine of an edge, and other would go to a finer stone past it. Also depends on how the knife is going to be used. Lots of if's and personal choice in it, best to consult with someone who uses them day and and day out. Aframestokyo is another seller but not one I've dealt with so can not Give an opinion on.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 28, 2016)

Godslayer said:


> so 5+ is what im looking for.



Hi Godslayer, if you never used jnats, a softer stone is much easier to use. Besides, if you are going for a kasumi finish, you will want a not so fine stone, as the finest stones will give you a mirror-like finish (or close to it) instead of the cloudy finish you are looking for.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 28, 2016)

There's a lv3 Aiiwatani Kopa on sale right now on B/S/T: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/25941-Aiiwatani-Koppa-lv3-w-Nagura-(from-JNS)


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## Smurfmacaw (Jan 28, 2016)

I've got a Ohira Suita that is really nice (not for sale though). It's a 3.5 and frankly any thing harder would be extremely hard in my opinion. It doesn't dish at all and leaves a killer edge. I like it a lot and it seems to leave a great edge on all the knives I've tried it on. (W1, W2, B2, 52100, and Haburn damascus). I'm a total novice with natural stones but it's pretty easy to use.


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## Andrew (Jan 28, 2016)

Sorta piling on to the above comments... but starting with a 5+ doesn't seem like the right approach, the stones are less forgiving in some ways, plus the finish is much more refined than most folks want for a kitchen knife.

I have a few Jnats, as I also work to sharpen woodworking gear to a higher level, but find myself using the softest stone I have (a hakka from Maksim) for my knife work.

I'd strongly suggest reaching out to one or more of the various vendors and see what they think might be a good stone. Determining a budget will also help the conversation quite a bit, as the finishing stones can get pretty flipping expensive in a hurry.


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## Bolek (Jan 28, 2016)

Maybe sothing not to expensive for the first jnat :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Na...igh-quality-/252250438052?hash=item3abb4c39a4


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## Asteger (Jan 29, 2016)

I like the idea of trying a koppa for your first stone. If you can enjoy using it - they're small, obviously - and get good results, then when you get a fuller-sized specimen it'll all seem so easy. (Tangent, sorry: I kind of think along the lines how many soccer academies start on reduced or futsal-type smalll pitches, before moving to full-sized one in later years. The smaller space helps build technique.) They're a lot cheaper too.

I'd ask Aframes or Jns for a recommendation, specifying what you sharpen. Yes, for kitchen knives you don't want things to be hard. Hard stones are for razors. Medium hardness (such as with the Lv3 koppa mentioned above) is good. Various sellers have various ways of describing hardness, though. Hardness isn't necessarily related to fineness, either. 

Non-'finisher' jnats can be the most enjoyable to use, but aren't that available. Aframes tends to sell aoto but I think the good ones cost a lot. Ikarashi are not that pricey at Jns and are easy to use. There are many others. Easy to use and finer but not too fine stones that people often enjoy are: Takashima, Ohira, Hakka and, as above, Aiiwatani (I haven't tried the last, though).


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## XooMG (Feb 2, 2016)

I myself am occasionally messing around with stones, though I can't even come close to justifying the big >$500 stones.

I recently picked up a (probably) igarashi semi-locally, which was a real surprise since I don't find many Japanese stones in this country, but it was a pretty good deal and I took a risk.

Stone has been impressive, and without any heavy slurry and minimal effort puts out a finish that I think rivals the scratch pattern of my JNS synthetic red aoto. Playing with slurries from other stones on it seemed to yield interesting results too with darkening and refining a little. I used my mikawa white nagura, some nakayama nagura, slurry from my hakka, and some slurry raised from the base stone...all were pretty interesting.

I've got one of those tiny hakka stones Maksim sold a while back, and while it is not easy to use because it's so narrow, I think it puts a pretty nice scratch finish on...maybe a bit too dark for my taste.

The ai'iwatani koppa I got seems to go even a little finer than the hakka, but I get less consistency on my bevels, and can never quite get it uniform. I think Maksim's hardness rating was 3, but it doesn't slurry a whole lot.

If I could get something that's as friendly and consistent as the igarashi, but with the finish of the ai'iwatani, I'd be pretty happy. I am not holding my breath though.


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## Asteger (Feb 3, 2016)

How about showing off your photo skills and putting a picture up of the Ikarashi? There are some others that are similar, but yours sounds Ikarashi-esque. Yes they have a good feel. I've been through 2 or 3 in the past (sold on I mean, not worn out of course).


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## XooMG (Feb 3, 2016)

Asteger said:


> How about showing off your photo skills and putting a picture up of the Ikarashi? There are some others that are similar, but yours sounds Ikarashi-esque. Yes they have a good feel. I've been through 2 or 3 in the past (sold on I mean, not worn out of course).


I probably won't be able to get any photos right away, and I don't think my skills would show off the stone very well. The stone was labeled Igarashi, which is why I said it probably is...but even if it's not...it seems like a nice stone and much finer than I initially expected. Second time I tried it straight on a bevel, it felt a little rubbery, but a tiny touch of dish soap got it cutting smoothly again (I hope nobody lynches me).

I also stumbled across an old gunma stone, tiger label #7...don't know if that equates to a numata or if it's something else, but it was a pretty good deal so I will be getting it by the end of the week I think.

I could potentially see a lower grit stone like this working on my Zakuri, &c. as a "working polish". It's smooth enough (unlike 800-1000 grit synthetics I've got) and pretty uniform. Seems to make a pretty nice crisp edge for some stuff too.

Still would be nice to refine it a bit more, though.


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## Asteger (Feb 3, 2016)

XooMG said:


> I probably won't be able to get any photos right away, and I don't think my skills would show off the stone very well. The stone was labeled Igarashi, which is why I said it probably is...but even if it's not...it seems like a nice stone and much finer than I initially expected. Second time I tried it straight on a bevel, it felt a little rubbery, but a tiny touch of dish soap got it cutting smoothly again (I hope nobody lynches me).
> 
> I also stumbled across an old gunma stone, tiger label #7...don't know if that equates to a numata or if it's something else, but it was a pretty good deal so I will be getting it by the end of the week I think.
> 
> ...



Sorry as I won't really look into it to write this, but although there's mostly a consensus there is also a little dissent about 'Ikarashi' named stones also coming from somewhere in Kyushi, not Niigata, Honshu from where they most certainly come from. Seems reasonable that the same name occurs more than once in Japan, especially given the Ikarashi kanji. Anything grey-blue-ish has to be the Ikarashi popularised here by JNS. They can resemble some Aizu in appearance and performance, but it's still possible to distinguish them and so I thought it'd be good to see a picture. 

Different stones have come from Gunma, but who really knows the specifics. Some are Numata hyotan and the 2-3 I've had of these are favourites. 

I like the idea of a 'working edge' yes.


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## XooMG (Feb 3, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Sorry as I won't really look into it to write this, but although there's mostly a consensus there is also a little dissent about 'Ikarashi' named stones also coming from somewhere in Kyushi, not Niigata, Honshu from where they most certainly come from. Seems reasonable that the same name occurs more than once in Japan, especially given the Ikarashi kanji. Anything grey-blue-ish has to be the Ikarashi popularised here by JNS. They can resemble some Aizu in appearance and performance, but it's still possible to distinguish them and so I thought it'd be good to see a picture.
> 
> Different stones have come from Gunma, but who really knows the specifics. Some are Numata hyotan and the 2-3 I've had of these are favourites.
> 
> I like the idea of a 'working edge' yes.


You may be right that it might be a different stone labeled incorrectly. I don't have a place of origin on it, but it does have a faint yellowish hint of woodgrain, and some red speckles like iron oxide on one end, which looks a bit reminiscent to some binsui or white amakusa pictures.

Funny, because the stone performs more admirably than I thought it would. Had I been told it was amakusa or binsui, I might have been reluctant to buy.

I will grab a quick pic in a few minutes...no good lighting at the moment though so you'll have to forgive poor quality.


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## XooMG (Feb 3, 2016)

Dry stone is pretty pale. Not yellowish really. Slurry is bright white.






Wetted, it darkens a lot, and some yellows, browns, and greens pop out. Here's a wetted edge with the red end. Doesn't seem to cut any differently from the rest of the stone.


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## Asteger (Feb 3, 2016)

It's definitely not a Niigata-type Ikarashi. Looks like a 'binsui' which will usually mean from somewhere in Kyushu. (I always get confused about the origins there.) I think there is a place called Ikarashi in Kyushu, too, which could cause some name-confusion because it doesn't seem like it'd be a source of stones. Still, this one has binsui written all over it. I have had the impression these were mined in in the Amakusa area. JNS used to sell some like these.

I've got a similar one which I like - narrower in the vintage style, with a vintage sticker (though I don't care about 'vintage' monikers necessarily) - and it also has the green strips. I think for this type of stone, the green bits are associated with the best kind. Unusually for most naturals, though, mine tends to dish quite fast - at a rate which makes me feel like I'm using a synth stone, and so maybe not all that fast for most people actually. Yours looks nice. Nice shape.

Here's a photo of 2 Ikarashi from Niigata I used to own. They can look very blue, but maybe are even more blue than usual in this photo:


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## XooMG (Feb 3, 2016)

Yep, I've been peeking at pics for a little while, and I'd be totally unsurprised if it were a binsui of some sort. Kind of funny because I have had some exposure to binsui many years ago but don't remember it.

Maybe I should try to track down a genuine ikarashi or aizu or something. If they can offer a similar level or a mild step up in finish/feel, they'd be pretty awesome. I would never have bought this one I've got if it weren't for a decent deal that I stumbled across nearby...but the midgrit range is pretty fun.


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## Asteger (Feb 3, 2016)

Yup. As many will concur, medium grits are absolutely fine, and I think esp with the nats which will seem to finish a lot finer than where they start. Probably my most used stone is still Aizu, and absolutely fine to finish with. Numata Hyotan, Aizu, Kaisei, Ikarashi, good Iyo are all some good ones that spring to mind and a bit finer than how I think yours is. Some of the best-feeling stones to use.


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## XooMG (Feb 4, 2016)

I will probably need to wait a while...until Chinese New Year passes...but I placed an order for an Aizu from one of the standard Japanese online vendors. Was going to grab a numata as well, but I want to see how the locally-sourced gunma white stone performs first (seller tells me it's 2-3k equivalent range but I don't trust such claims usually).

Thanks for the possible ID help on the so-called igarashi...it does indeed seem to be a good/fine binsui, or something very similar.


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## Asteger (Feb 4, 2016)

2-3k sounds reasonable to me, or maybe a bit coarser to start? Anyway, there's a tendency to measure a lot due to the synth stone grit influence, I guess, but I usually relax a bit with these things and feel that, if a type of stone has traditionally been well-regarded in a certain way, then (provided you get a good one) you can usually trust that it'll work out for you. 

Very happy to hear you're trying the Aizu. Let us know how it is. Not many people have them. Have you read the story about the miners all dying one winter in the 50s and all Aizu mining stopping thereafter? Little creepy, I guess


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## Badgertooth (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm trying out a cheap shoubudani that seems to be putting a very nice edge on blue steel



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## panda (Feb 4, 2016)

ikarashi is a really really nice feedback stone, around 2k edge, best for finishing stainless knives. but i also use it for carbon petty.


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## brooksie967 (Feb 5, 2016)

I've tried edges from 1k up to 12k synth and medium fineness jnats up to the finest of jnats that are glass hard and are more suited for razors. My favorite stone for finishing edges as well as providing perfect kasumi contrast is a shobu suita. It's a level 4 stone in hardness and is wonderfully fast. WIth DMT slurry it can remove 1k scratches very very quickly, on water it's still fast but finishes to a very semi mirror polish. Honestly it's about as fine as I'd like to go on an edge as it is still toothy enough to handle things like the skin on bell peppers and tomatoes but is silky smooth cutting through meat and fish.


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## XooMG (Feb 5, 2016)

Asteger said:


> 2-3k sounds reasonable to me, or maybe a bit coarser to start? Anyway, there's a tendency to measure a lot due to the synth stone grit influence, I guess, but I usually relax a bit with these things and feel that, if a type of stone has traditionally been well-regarded in a certain way, then (provided you get a good one) you can usually trust that it'll work out for you.


Didn't work out too well this time with the gunma stone...the stone isn't bad (didn't add huge scratches, feels OK), but the quality of finish is neither as fine nor as consistent as the big white "igarashi" binsui-ish stone.



> Very happy to hear you're trying the Aizu. Let us know how it is. Not many people have them. Have you read the story about the miners all dying one winter in the 50s and all Aizu mining stopping thereafter? Little creepy, I guess


I read the story from the vendor's page, and think I may have read it somewhere before, but I have heard quite a few local legends in Japan that turned out false, so I tend to not take them very seriously now.

Chinese New Year means a few days with the post office shut down, so I probably will need to wait to get it.

And being a sucker for redundancy, I also just snagged an ikarashi that suddenly popped up on JNS. With luck, I'll find something in this range that'll make me happy. The big white brick I've got gets pretty close, so I think there's hope.


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## Badgertooth (Feb 5, 2016)

XooMG said:


> I will probably need to wait a while...until Chinese New Year passes...but I placed an order for an Aizu from one of the standard Japanese online vendors. Was going to grab a numata as well, but I want to see how the locally-sourced gunma white stone performs first (seller tells me it's 2-3k equivalent range but I don't trust such claims usually).
> 
> Thanks for the possible ID help on the so-called igarashi...it does indeed seem to be a good/fine binsui, or something very similar.



out of interest - What are the standard Japanese online vendors other than Mandaraya and Totoriya?


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## XooMG (Feb 6, 2016)

I was just referring to Morihei this time around, but I'm not endorsing or anything. I just felt a bit spontaneous and decided to take a gamble.


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## Asteger (Feb 6, 2016)

I've sent 4~5 emails to Morihei in the past and visited once (closed then). Received 1 response more than half a year later from one of my messages. In Morihei's defense, though, I think it's not unsual for foreign emails to Japanese accounts to be diverted into spam. One option I checked before and I think is possible is even to get a J-based email account! :dazed:


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## XooMG (Feb 6, 2016)

Asteger said:


> I've sent 4~5 emails to Morihei in the past and visited once (closed then). Received 1 response more than half a year later from one of my messages. In Morihei's defense, though, I think it's not unsual for foreign emails to Japanese accounts to be diverted into spam. One option I checked before and I think is possible is even to get a J-based email account! :dazed:


I lucked out by doing the intellectually lazy thing...ordered the stone without any questions. I think they shipped it already, but it'll be probably at least a week before I see it. Same with the ikarashi from Maksim.


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## Matus (Feb 6, 2016)

I would go with Takashima, Hakka, Hideriyama or similar. Ideally around lv 2.5 (not more than 3).


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## Asteger (Feb 6, 2016)

Matus said:


> I would go with Takashima, Hakka, Hideriyama or similar. Ideally around lv 2.5 (not more than 3).



That sounds good although 'similar' isn't as easy as the word makes it sound. I'd avoid Hideriyama, too


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## brooksie967 (Feb 6, 2016)

Japanese knife users and carpenters have been using ultra hard stones and polishing the ura to the max of its ootential.

Remember with clad knives you can have one stone for the finish you like then microbevel with something coarser or even synthetic.


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## XooMG (Feb 6, 2016)

I think I like the midrange because every attempt I've made at a higher finish on harder stones (ai'iwa, shoubu, wakasa, nakayama) has been slightly irregular in kasumi...not bad but not 100% uniform...I think I'll need to use fingerstones or something to really get it very even. With my big white brick, I'm getting a lower grit finish and more hazy edge steel, but the effect is more consistent along the blade and requires much less effort. It is still smooth enough (burnishing a little with autosol will make it glassy)...just more of a utilitarian finish.

But I claim no real knowledge in this space...mostly just feeling around in the dark.


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## Asteger (Feb 6, 2016)

XooMG said:


> I think I like the midrange because every attempt I've made at a higher finish on harder stones (ai'iwa, shoubu, wakasa, nakayama) has been slightly irregular in kasumi...not bad but not 100% uniform...I think I'll need to use fingerstones or something to really get it very even. With my big white brick, I'm getting a lower grit finish and more hazy edge steel, but the effect is more consistent along the blade and requires much less effort. It is still smooth enough (burnishing a little with autosol will make it glassy)...just more of a utilitarian finish.



I'm also a midrange fan. It's pretty impossible to get a 'perfect' finish with just a finer/harder stone, though you have a better chance if you find the right nagura to ease things through. If you want to be fine, then you'll need a softer stone although you can't really get very fine stones that are on the softer side; you'd have to be lucky. There's sometimes a mentality that finer is better, but that has to be true only for slicers, as many people will often write. I don't know how legit that phrase 'aoto, king of the kitchen knives' is, but I'd say a traditional-sounding idea like this is a better guide for knife sharpeners than joining the 'finer, finer' arms race, even if some of the conventional wisdom (and stone sellers) may steer you this way. (Why are mediums so sparse on JNS, for eg?)

If you've got wide bevels - deba, wide-bevelled gyuto, usuba - just finish with an appropriate medium and go for a uniform finish that way, I say. If a yanagiba, go finer then polish the wide bevel through other means. On normal non-clearly wide-bevelled gyuto or petty, you can use a finer stone and go for kasumi and get nice contrast near the edge, but expect to polish another way above there (use the same slurry for eg) because, as you said, pretty tough to go beyond 'not bad'. Get it looking nice along most of the larger bevel, then blend to the face of the knife polishing with slurry, fingerstones or pads of some sort, etc.

Some stones I've tried that come close to allowing a stone-only uniform finish at an above medium fineness are large uchigumori, shobu, takashima, ohira. There'll be others, and of course many stones with these names also won't do all that you hope either.


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## Badgertooth (Feb 6, 2016)

Yo Xoom, did I have it right that you're in Taiwan? Are you and yours ok after the earthquake?


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## XooMG (Feb 14, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> Yo Xoom, did I have it right that you're in Taiwan? Are you and yours ok after the earthquake?


I'm fine.

In other news, my Aizu arrived. First impressions are negative but that's just how the lotto seems to work.


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## Asteger (Feb 14, 2016)

XooMG said:


> ... my Aizu arrived. First impressions are negative but that's just how the lotto seems to work.



I've only ever seen 1 dud Aizu, so would be a tragedy. Any photo?


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## XooMG (Feb 14, 2016)

Asteger said:


> I've only ever seen 1 dud Aizu, so would be a tragedy. Any photo?


None from me right away, but from the seller: http://www.morihei.co.jp/?pid=82810276


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## Asteger (Feb 14, 2016)

XooMG said:


> None from me right away, but from the seller: http://www.morihei.co.jp/?pid=82810276



Hmm... It looks fine to me and huge. Should be a bargain! On the other hand, I recall him selling Aizu before for a lot more and I don't think of him as cheap, including because he's in Tokyo. They generally go for Y20,000-40,000 at Morihei or another seller.

Not sure if you know, but maybe the comments on Dr Naka's or Darkhoek's blogs can help.


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## XooMG (Feb 14, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Hmm... It looks fine to me and huge. Should be a bargain! On the other hand, I recall him selling Aizu before for a lot more and I don't think of him as cheap, including because he's in Tokyo. They generally go for Y20,000-40,000 at Morihei or another seller.
> 
> Not sure if you know, but maybe the comments on Dr Naka's or Darkhoek's blogs can help.


It's not awful, but new and after a bit of lapping, even light slurrying pulls up a handful of sandy grits. It slurries pretty quickly and finishes with a similar scratch pattern as the denser/harder/less fragrant pseudo-igarashi but with a bit more darkening and less consistency and occasional scratches/scuffs from stray grit.

It is very tall so I won't dismiss it, but so far it's been frustrating.


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## Asteger (Feb 14, 2016)

XooMG said:


> It's not awful, but new and after a bit of lapping, even light slurrying pulls up a handful of sandy grits. It slurries pretty quickly and finishes with a similar scratch pattern as the denser/harder/less fragrant pseudo-igarashi but with a bit more darkening and less consistency and occasional scratches/scuffs from stray grit.



Hmm... Slurries pretty quickly, finish with good dark contrast. Would you say it's also got a pretty hard and dense feel? I've only experienced messy grits with one dud, but that one looks unlike the 2 general styles you see, of which yours appears to belong. I've gone through between 5-10 and they've always seemed a very safe bet.

Here. For fun here's my current most-used Aizu. Same style as yours, it appears. (The other is darker sesame seeds. This one has the bigger white freckles and black blotches for which, yes, there are more fancy sounding names.) The sides are lacquered, even though with stones like this it's not really necessary:


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## XooMG (Feb 14, 2016)

Compared to the binsui-type stone which doesn't slurry much at all, the aizu feels soft and not as dense and the surface seems to drink just a bit more. It's not a mudmachine, but raising a slurry is pretty trivial. Seems to cut much faster than the binsui, pulling up swarf without too much trouble. After lapping off nearly a millimeter, I still get a little grittiness in the slurry, but I tried without slurry and got a reasonable finish with only minor stray scratches. Still doesn't seem as good as my binsui, but it's not tearing big chunks out of my knives or anything.

Igarashi from Maksim will probably show up soon too...hopefully one of these will work out. If not, then I'll probably spare myself more purchases unless I can find a "safe bet" aoto or takashima-class stone that will do nice bevel finishes.


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## Asteger (Feb 14, 2016)

XooMG said:


> Compared to the binsui-type stone which doesn't slurry much at all, the aizu feels soft and not as dense and the surface seems to drink just a bit more. It's not a mudmachine, but raising a slurry is pretty trivial. Seems to cut much faster than the binsui, pulling up swarf without too much trouble. After lapping off nearly a millimeter, I still get a little grittiness in the slurry, but I tried without slurry and got a reasonable finish with only minor stray scratches. Still doesn't seem as good as my binsui, but it's not tearing big chunks out of my knives or anything.



Sounds odd again. The aizu should feel harder/denser. The binsui with green stripes I have, like yours, is pretty fast and slurry comes easily, does feel dense, but it'll also begin to dish unlike most nat stones, but not like most synth stones do. The aizu is similar in releasing slurry as it it's easy enough. All I've tried (except for one) have had a very similar feel/density/slurry/speed, and they're not the densest but definitely on the dense side, but they've been very consistent in comparision. They're a relief if I've switched to one after using a synth prior to the Aizu. The binsui is coarser and I'd use it, say, where I'd use a JNS 800, to set up a uniform finish. Aizu are similar to Ikarashi (I don't have Ikarashi, so am going by memory) and are a bit finer and leave a better finish, if that helps.


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## XooMG (Feb 14, 2016)

The igarashi-labeled binsui-looking stone seems almost as dense as my soaked naniwa pink brick. The slurry off it with a 150-grit diamond plate never really turns into the gooey sticky mud that you get with softer stones, but stays more liquid like I get with my harder razor stones. It doesn't seem to drink really at all (maybe a little, but not much). It also has very little mud smell. Most even medium-hard nagura leave their own slurry instead of kicking up much of the base stone's. Using it to clean up the darkening and scratches from a JNS 800 is actually pretty slow...I have been using it as a harder/slower and more consistent substitute for the JNS synthetic red aoto.

The Aizu is not a light or super soft stone...my mini piece of hakka is much softer. I have not used it to chase after a JNS 800 but I get the impression it would be a fair bit faster than the other white brick. The scratches are a different character than the pseudo-igarashi, so it's hard to tell if they are finer immediately, but they aren't that far off.


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## Asteger (Feb 14, 2016)

Hehe, this is some real stone talk. I'm too sleepy to risk further words. Tomorrow!...


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## panda (Feb 14, 2016)

You're going to love the jns ikarashi, it's a joy to use.


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## Asteger (Feb 14, 2016)

He doesn't have one. Sometimes there's some confusion over the name, with the mine before being in Niigata and some stones, white Amakusa I think, being labelled with 'Ikarashi'. I like them, but like Aizu more, both true 'aoto' because they're actually blue


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## XooMG (Feb 14, 2016)

I will have one in the next couple of days for comparison. It will be interesting to see if I have an exceptionally nice white brick, i.e. if the mislabeled pseudo-igarashi produces a nicer result than a presumably authentic one. Either way, I think I'll have enough in the low-mid grit range to stop accumulating.


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## masibu (Feb 14, 2016)

panda said:


> ikarashi is a really really nice feedback stone, around 2k edge, best for finishing stainless knives. but i also use it for carbon petty.



how do you compare the edges to synthetic 1-2k stones? not that i need an excuse to buy a new stone but I have an aoto and the big nagura from jns and considering going all natural stones for my setup for a while..


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## Asteger (Feb 15, 2016)

Which big nagura is that?


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## mikedtran (Feb 15, 2016)

I'm going to piggy back on this thread instead of emailing Asteger directly to hopefully share information more broadly.

Looking at getting my first Japanese Natural stone and looking at a couple different stones/vendors. Has anyone ordered stones from Sinichi (Watanabe)?

The stones he has seem quite reasonably priced, he has some thinner Tomae in Takashima and full sized Shiro suita, in Maruo-yama. Any thoughts on these stones?


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## XooMG (Feb 15, 2016)

JNS smurf igarashi showed up. Very similar to the one in your pics, Asteger, with the heavy corner chamfers.

I flattened it a bit during a break from work and tried it out. Performs very similarly to the pseudo-igarashi (white brick)...maybe a little faster? But I'd just flattened it so it had some slurry hiding in the surface. White brick feels denser but some of the difference may be illusory from the size difference...but the smurf igarashi feels similar in density to the aizu. Slurries a little more easily than white brick, but not as easily as aizu.

Anyway, sorry to clog up a "finishing stone" thread with midgrit adventures!


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## Badgertooth (Feb 15, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> I'm going to piggy back on this thread instead of emailing Asteger directly to hopefully share information more broadly.
> 
> Looking at getting my first Japanese Natural stone and looking at a couple different stones/vendors. Has anyone ordered stones from Sinichi (Watanabe)?
> 
> The stones he has seem quite reasonably priced, he has some thinner Tomae in Takashima and full sized Shiro suita, in Maruo-yama. Any thoughts on these stones?



He's a pleasure to deal and my maruoyama shiro suita is a great stone.


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## masibu (Feb 15, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Which big nagura is that?



sorry, the big tsushima nagura from jns


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## Asteger (Feb 15, 2016)

XooMG said:


> JNS smurf igarashi showed up. Very similar to the one in your pics, Asteger, with the heavy corner chamfers.
> 
> I flattened it a bit during a break from work and tried it out. Performs very similarly to the pseudo-igarashi (white brick)...maybe a little faster? But I'd just flattened it so it had some slurry hiding in the surface. White brick feels denser but some of the difference may be illusory from the size difference...but the smurf igarashi feels similar in density to the aizu. Slurries a little more easily than white brick, but not as easily as aizu.
> 
> Anyway, sorry to clog up a "finishing stone" thread with midgrit adventures!



Midgrit adventures - People don't quite get it I think, and there should be more attention for midgrits. Better than the same old about finishers. 

Your 'white brick' binsui find sounds like it's proving itself repeatedly, a nice find. Finding our benchmark stone(s) is always a good thing.

Slurry hiding on the surface - a good thing! Not sure where the idea came from that slurry has to self-generate all the time. You may want to check how a stone's own slurry does on its own, but nothing wrong with lapping and using (clean) slurry, or nagura. 

Smurf Ik/garashi - excellent name. Yes, density should be similar to aizu, a little less so to me, but very nice. 

Aizu - now your comments make it sound like the Aizu stone you got, which already seems unusual, slurries too easily. Should be quite similar to the Ikarashi there too.


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## Asteger (Feb 16, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Looking at getting my first Japanese Natural stone and looking at a couple different stones/vendors. Has anyone ordered stones from Sinichi (Watanabe)? The stones he has seem quite reasonably priced, he has some thinner Tomae in Takashima and full sized Shiro suita, in Maruo-yama.



Haven't tried any from him, though there was a sale once with another member and I thought the price was on the high side. (I think it was an Aizu.) I'd certainly lean toward trusting him. However, it's also a bit odd because on his site he also sells his own synth stones and somewhere - I think it's on his site - he advocates the synths over nats. And then he also advocates the nats as being from his own collection, when how could that be because he actually sells quite a few of them. If stones are of his collection, surely he'd have to have them and use them for a while?

There's another maker who I'm not supposed to mention who will sell some stones now and then to trusted customers, and they're supposed to be very good. Stones selected individually when visiting Kyoto and/or in consultation with a dealer, and so then used and tested by a well known maker himself. I'd sort of assume Watanabe could be similarly relied upon, but also (especially because he's so good at being responsive) that you could probe him for specifics if you can think of the right questions about a stone he will sell. He always sounds very open and honest in his answers.

I'd say the finisher stones Watanabe sells look like they could be good, but are not the super pricey ones that you might sometimes see on JNS which in that case are also chosen for exclusivity, uniformity of shape and looks. Jnat bling, sort of for internationals with $. But normal looks aren't necessarily a problem. Always remember the Shigefusa Ohira, which has a huge line gouged out if its middle along with 1 or 2 other rough bits too, and it must do what Iizuka wants.

About thin Takashima - if less than 25-30mm you'll have to pamper them, or mount on wood. If not fragile.

And Maruoyama....


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## Asteger (Feb 16, 2016)

.. Maruoyama is maybe the only active mine currently in Kyoto. Not from the old stone heartland, but to the west outside of the city in what Metalmaster labels the 'Tamba fields' and so out by Ohira and others, in Aoto-land. It's mined by one guy who's not too old yet and appears to be a bit of a stone celebrity, and you can visit his shop outside of Kyoto city and have a go at different stones and buy. I haven't been, but James and Maxim and 1 or 2 others I won't mention have all stopped by. Looks like a great day trip.

From what I've read, he's gone through the more knife-friendly layers in recent years and is on to the harder stones. Therefore this is probably a good time to get stuff and perhaps it's a good deal. Because it's a new/current mine, some of his stuff seems available in Japan compared to others. (It's been on my list, but I've not yet bought for various reasons.) Ohira I guess are slowly released as they're cut from bigger bits in their warehouse. In recent years Aiiwatani have come out too. Who knows, certainly other stones that surface are from scraps and/or labelled as being from certain places based on the expert's assessment rather than actual knowledge (this decided by a resolution not too long ago, I read) which isn't such a bad thing if you think that what you want is quality and performance over names. 

Back to Maruoyama. I'd certainly go for one and have a try if the description/characteristics and price sounded right. Like with others, in a decade or two could also be worth a lot more. I'd guess that they would be sold on Aframes and JNS and other international sites, too, but perhaps the owner isn't supplying them to the international sellers, and so assuming they're good stones this might be why you will hear only 1 or 2 mentions of them here. Wouldn't be the first example of KKF people not knowing of something because it's not available through the usual channels.


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## panda (Feb 23, 2016)

xoom, have you given the smurf more use? i absolutely love the feedback it gives. i hate that mine is not flattened (too impatient to remove the bevels myself), lol. i wish there was a similar stone to the ikarashi that is just a little bit finer.


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## XooMG (Feb 23, 2016)

panda said:


> xoom, have you given the smurf more use? i absolutely love the feedback it gives. i hate that mine is not flattened (too impatient to remove the bevels myself), lol. i wish there was a similar stone to the ikarashi that is just a little bit finer.


I've only given it a little bit of attention, so I am afraid I don't have much to report. I also have only flattened mine a little and have left some of the chamfers intact...would rather wear the stone down while practicing and testing it than to flatten it and _then_ start playing with it.

I have no confidence in what will perform similarly with a finer result. I have had some luck using the igarashi as a base for finer slurry from hakka, nakayama, and finer mikawa nagura like tenjo. Not perfect, but it did seem to produce a somewhat finer finish with a little bit of the igarashi character showing (if that means anything).

Given my feelings about the naturals game, I'll probably not be pursuing it much further, so I'm afraid I won't be much help.


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## Asteger (Feb 24, 2016)

panda said:


> i wish there was a similar stone to the ikarashi that is just a little bit finer.



The Aizu! The other option is Kaisei (there are different Kaisei, though)


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## berko (Feb 24, 2016)

ok, you got me. where can i get one?


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## panda (Feb 24, 2016)

back off berk, i need one first!


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