# Coarse stone



## idemhj

Before i started freehand sharpening I never would have thought it, but now I know - higher grit stones are easy to find and easy to like (even though they tend to be expensive). 

Finding a good coarse grit stone - and by coarse grit I mean something below 300 - is really hard. 

I live in Europe and have, so far as I see it, the following options: Shapton pro 220 (hard), Sun Tiger 240 (soft, really soft), Imanishi Bester 220 (medium hard). I already have Naniwa pro 400 and JNS 300, but I am looking for something faster cutting. I also have an Atoma 140, but I really hate it (for anything else than flattening - for which I love it). What would be your recommendation?

I am leaning towards the Bester, but I am open to suggestions. Buying from the US or Japan is not an option - that would be far to expensive. I am not necessarily a fan of hard stones, I like the Naniwa pros, but I also have a King 800 and I like that as well. Perhaps this is an impossible question since it all boils down to personal preference, but any and all input would be highly appreciated.


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## CutFingers

Coarser stones release bigger particles faster, and wear faster. I'm not saying it doesn't matter what stone you get, but I guess I'm saying get whatever your budget allows. There is no good or bad in coarse stones. In fact the quality of a coarse stone, is in the user not the materials. Use them wisely. 

If you don't plan on thinning often anything will do...and I do mean anything. Cheap combination hardware store stones contain enough abrasive to get the job done and only cost a few bucks.


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## Marcelo Amaral

Have you tried King Deluxe 300? It will probably not be faster than your Shapton 220, i imagine.


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## psfred

The King Deluxe 300 is a great stone, very hard, wears very slowly, but cuts like crazy. I use my as a splash and go, too, although it is a bit thirsty that way.

Used with light pressure it makes gray swarf that appears to be only metal, no grit, and stays flat a very long time. High pressure causes a bit more wear, but not much. 

I ordered mine from Stu a few years ago, I've never seen in in the US or on the auction site.

Peter


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## idemhj

Thank you guys. It seems the King 300 gets some love and I can actually buy it in Europe. However, the reason I didn't include it among my original candidates was that on the fine-tools homepages it says: "*Notice*: This stone is for carbon steel blades only. Alloyed steel blocks the grain." And since I am mainly going to use it for thinning down stainless clad blades, I thought that perhaps it wasn't the best option; but now I think I'll give it a try. After all, coarse stones seem to be very much a question of personal preference -- and, fortunately, they are not that expensive... Sooner or later I might find one that I like.


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## chinacats

I've been enjoying the Suehiro Cerax 320. I find it to be a very productive stone...though should say that I mostly use it on carbon/iron clad knives. Bonus is that you can get full brick size from Stu so should still be cheap in Europe.


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## osakajoe

I love and use all the time the sigma select ii #240 stone. Not sure exactly where in Europe to get it but I can search around if you want. Just an initial search online fine-tools.com comes up but I'm not sure if anyone has dealt with them before.


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## Dardeau

King 300 works on my Heiji semi stainless, and a couple of Yoshikane semi stainless I picked up without clogging. I haven't tried anything really gummy on it though.


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## labor of love

I like the sigma 240 for hardcore thinning.


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## Lizzardborn

osakajoe said:


> I love and use all the time the sigma select ii #240 stone. Not sure exactly where in Europe to get it but I can search around if you want. Just an initial search online fine-tools.com comes up but I'm not sure if anyone has dealt with them before.



I have bought the sigma 1200 and 400 from them. They have some problems with writing the full address (I had to contact DHL twice), but otherwise very fast and correct.


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## panda

I really hated the sigma 240, awful feeling and clogs like crazy. Would like to try the king 300.


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## Matus

I have a very good experience with JNS300. It is splash&go, wears slowly and cuts fast.


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## osakajoe

panda said:


> I really hated the sigma 240, awful feeling and clogs like crazy. Would like to try the king 300.



Yes it will dish fast and create a slur. But taking into consideration how fast it cuts, I don't mind that at all. Just rinse with water real fast, very easy to clear it. I sharpen professionally and time is most important, and that's the rough stone I use the most out of my 20-30 stone selection.


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## labor of love

My opinion of the sigma 240 changed drastically once I began using it in conjunction with a sink bridge and a light drizzle of water.


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## osakajoe

labor of love said:


> My opinion of the sigma 240 changed drastically once I began using it in conjunction with a sink bridge and a light drizzle of water.



Yeah this stone on a sink bridge cute out the clogging issue. Just make sure to flatten the stone regularly.


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## panda

i could not get over the feedback issue, lol


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## mhpr262

idemhj said:


> And since I am mainly going to use it for thinning down stainless clad blades,



---->


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## Drayquan

King 300 vs Shapton Glass 220
TL;DR = Want to hear feedback on cutting speed difference between king 300 and the Sglass 220.

I'm a big fan of the King 300, its been the backbone of my setup for a while now. It took over the heavy lifting after I killed 4/5'ths of my chosera 400 - using that for harsher repair work than its really intended for (didn't know any better back then).

Now, after a ton of groundwork on countless knives, my King 300 is getting low on life, about 1/3 of it is left (for this stone that's a lot of sharpening life, its very wear resistant - I'm just planning for the future). I was simply going to buy a new one, however, I have to admit, for certain heavy tasks, the king 300 isn't as fast as I'd like.
(I have to deal mostly with German/western stainless, but get lucky sometimes with gigs to sharpen nice high carbon stuff.)

So, instead of just getting a new 300 for when my current one eventually fades away to nothing, I figured it'd be far better to act now and grab something coarser/faster cutting - this way it'll speed things up, and stretch out the remaining king 300's life by a huge margin. Does the Shapton Glass 220 cut noticeably faster (Considering I deal with mostly stainless)?

I do own a 1" x 42" belt grinder for serious repair work (to prep for my king 300), however I'm far more experienced with stones, and although I've gotten more comfortable over time on the belt grinder, I can't get as accurate/consistent results as I can on stones. Its also not something I can take into restaurants which I need to do now and then; Its pretty noisy (1/4 hp 1725 rpm) and it doesn't have a proper vacuum to take in the debris/particulates - not kitchen friendly like whetstones can be.

I'm currently limited to stuff on Amazon.CA (free really fast shipping), though there's another online retailer within fast/affordable shipping to my area with the SGlass 220 for 25% off regular retail price, so really tempted to snag that. Just wanted to hear feedback on cutting speed difference between king 300 and the sg220.
Thx


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## PappaG

I think you will find both the SG and Shapton pro 220 to cut faster, and wear faster than the king 300.


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## 2bApical?

osakajoe said:


> Yes it will dish fast and create a slur. But taking into consideration how fast it cuts, I don't mind that at all. Just rinse with water real fast, very easy to clear it. I sharpen professionally and time is most important, and that's the rough stone I use the most out of my 20-30 stone selection.


Can you tell me why you use the


osakajoe said:


> Yes it will dish fast and create a slur. But taking into consideration how fast it cuts, I don't mind that at all. Just rinse with water real fast, very easy to clear it. I sharpen professionally and time is most important, and that's the rough stone I use the most out of my 20-30 stone selection.


Can you please tell me why you prefer the Sigma 240 to either a coarser stone or a diamond stone. Thanks


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## inferno

I have both the shappro 220 and glass220 they are both ultra fast stones. the pro wears a bit faster and is a bit slower, but its twice as thick.


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## Foltest

I like the shapton pro 120, good speed and dishes slowly


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## Drayquan

I got the glass 220 and love it. Speed-wise, it completely obliterates the King 300 deluxe, its really on a totally different level, FAR more than what you might expect from only an #80 grit difference.

Despite this, I still consider the King 300 one of the best value, cost effective coarse stones on the market. Although its nowhere near as fast cutting as the glass 220, it is SEVEN times as thick (King 300 = 34mm thick, shapton glass= 5mm).

5mm thickness of the King 300 VS. Shapton Glass 220 (5mm thick total):
For *the same amount of metal removal*, its hard to say which would actually last longer. Because of the cutting speed difference, this might be a little closer than you'd think.

Just consider if the speed makes it worth it for you personally.

Milimeter for Milimeter, most SG stones are somewhat justifiable because of their significant wear resistance, especially the higher grit you go; I havent tried the SG 120, however, the 220 glass dishes/wears noticably, signifincantly quicker than even the SG 500 (which I recently got also).

If you're on a strict budget and don't mind spending the extra time/effort on grinding work, the King 300 is an easy winner. If, for you, saving time and effort/energy is important, or if you sharpen professionally when often "time=money", then shapton glass 220 can make up for it's faster wearing/dishing, and higher relative cost.


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## Keith Sinclair

Use the 1x42 belt a lot to thin dull stainless knives. Have no problem using a 140 atoma. No need to press too hard let diamonds do the work the plate will last longer. 
I finish off peoples home knives with the JKI-- 1k diamond stone. It leaves a good edge on cheaper stainless, and so far seems to still be working effectively. If the home blades are better quality finish of with the King 1k hyper.

Personally can't get too excited about course stones generally they wear too fast if you are sharpening lots of knives. If you have a couple already just use them up, not like you will find the perfect coarse stone. They are designed to remove steel quicker. I use the Xtra large gesshin 400 at the culinary school. Like it because of it's size will last longer.


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## labor of love

Drayquan said:


> I got the glass 220 and love it. Speed-wise, it completely obliterates the King 300 deluxe, its really on a totally different level, FAR more than what you might expect from only an #80 grit difference.
> 
> Despite this, I still consider the King 300 one of the best value, cost effective coarse stones on the market. Although its nowhere near as fast cutting as the glass 220, it is SEVEN times as thick (King 300 = 34mm thick, shapton glass= 5mm).
> 
> 5mm thickness of the King 300 VS. Shapton Glass 220 (5mm thick total):
> For *the same amount of metal removal*, its hard to say which would actually last longer. Because of the cutting speed difference, this might be a little closer than you'd think.
> 
> Just consider if the speed makes it worth it for you personally.
> 
> Milimeter for Milimeter, most SG stones are somewhat justifiable because of their significant wear resistance, especially the higher grit you go; I havent tried the SG 120, however, the 220 glass dishes/wears noticably, signifincantly quicker than even the SG 500 (which I recently got also).
> 
> If you're on a strict budget and don't mind spending the extra time/effort on grinding work, the King 300 is an easy winner. If, for you, saving time and effort/energy is important, or if you sharpen professionally when often "time=money", then shapton glass 220 can make up for it's faster wearing/dishing, and higher relative cost.


I get all these low grit shaptons people talk about confused. Good to know the 220 glass is fast. Does it clog up a lot?


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## Drayquan

labor of love said:


> I get all these low grit shaptons people talk about confused. Good to know the 220 glass is fast. Does it clog up a lot?


Metal particulate buildup stays mostly within the water/slurry above, it doesn't get clogged down into the stone below much; just a dash of water clears it right off easily.

The shapton glass 500 is drastically different - totally aside from just the coarseness difference. Unlike the glass 220, it really loves to hug metal particulates on to its surface, though this isn't too hard to clear off. You actually won't need anything other than water and a little rub with your palm/fingers, unless you let it dry for even a few minutes, in which case you'll need a cleaning stone or other method to gently lap it clear.

The king 300 seems to have some more significant clog-up issues, which can slow down it's cutting speed. Its hard to tell because the stone is a somewhat dark gray colour which slightly hides metal particle buildup. I feel like since the king 300 stays flat for so long, people don't lap it as often, really compounding the clogging issue.


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## Drayquan

Keith Sinclair said:


> Use the 1x42 belt a lot to thin dull stainless knives.



Nice, I also use a 1x42 belt grinder (with 80 - 120 grit zirconia for thinning / major edge repairs), these make life so much easier, wouldn't you say 

Using the belt grinder as a first step on heavy work before starting on the glass 220 is really saving the 220's lifespan. For just minor chipping or something that just needs minor thinning though, I'll skip the belt grinder and go straight to SGlass 220.
The chosera 800 can take most of the 220 scratches out of soft stainless without much work, but for higher end blades I'll follow the 220 with either a chosera 400 or Sglass 500 before the 800. For finishing stainless, shapton pro 2k and just a light strop on chosera 3k, then newspaper. Harder steels go up to 6k(king)/8k(kitayama)/12k(shapton pro/kuromaku), depending on the type of alloy.


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## foody518

Drayquan said:


> I got the glass 220 and love it. Speed-wise, it completely obliterates the King 300 deluxe, its really on a totally different level, FAR more than what you might expect from only an #80 grit difference.
> 
> Despite this, I still consider the King 300 one of the best value, cost effective coarse stones on the market. Although its nowhere near as fast cutting as the glass 220, it is SEVEN times as thick (King 300 = 34mm thick, shapton glass= 5mm).
> 
> 5mm thickness of the King 300 VS. Shapton Glass 220 (5mm thick total):
> For *the same amount of metal removal*, its hard to say which would actually last longer. Because of the cutting speed difference, this might be a little closer than you'd think.
> 
> Just consider if the speed makes it worth it for you personally.
> 
> Milimeter for Milimeter, most SG stones are somewhat justifiable because of their significant wear resistance, especially the higher grit you go; I havent tried the SG 120, however, the 220 glass dishes/wears noticably, signifincantly quicker than even the SG 500 (which I recently got also).
> 
> If you're on a strict budget and don't mind spending the extra time/effort on grinding work, the King 300 is an easy winner. If, for you, saving time and effort/energy is important, or if you sharpen professionally when often "time=money", then shapton glass 220 can make up for it's faster wearing/dishing, and higher relative cost.




I'd say that you would find that speed difference of King 300 vs some other coarse stone to be less attributable to the 80 grit of difference and more to that the King 300 seems to be relatively slow cutting both for edge work and thinning compared to probably everything else I've tried in the 300-500 grit range.


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## Drayquan

foody518 said:


> I'd say that you would find that speed difference of King 300 vs some other coarse stone to be less attributable to the 80 grit of difference and more to that the King 300 seems to be relatively slow cutting both for edge work and thinning compared to probably everything else I've tried in the 300-500 grit range.



I'm sure you're right for a number of other stones in the 300-400 range, though I'm really curious to know what 500 grit stones you've tried that cut faster than the king 300... was it a silicon carbide 500 grit perhaps. ?
The King 300 cuts just a little faster than the Chosera/Naniwa pro 400 for example (while also being suprisingly more wear-resistant than that 400). 
...Speaking of the Chosera 400 (and since we're in a "coarse stone" thread), just want to mention that is one of my fav stones of all time for it's versitility - just coarse enough for speedy (minor) repair work, and if really used correctly, can also produce a shaving-sharp edge, great feedback too.


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## foody518

Drayquan said:


> I'm sure you're right for a number of other stones in the 300-400 range, though I'm really curious to know what 500 grit stones you've tried that cut faster than the king 300... was it a silicon carbide 500 grit perhaps. ?
> The King 300 cuts just a little faster than the Chosera/Naniwa pro 400 for example (while also being suprisingly more wear-resistant than that 400). ...Speaking of the Chosera 400, that is one of my fav stones of all time for it's versitility - just coarse enough for speedy (minor) repair work, and if really used correctly, can also produce a shaving-sharp edge, great feedback too.



I ought to use it a bit more, but current I'm perceiving the Shapton Glass 500 to cut more easily and faster than my King 300 Deluxe. The Chosera/Pro 400 I think of as a nice 600 grit... There's a mental list of stones I would feasibly want to use to follow up a gross 120 grit stone, and that one isn't one of them.


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## Keith Sinclair

Even bought a leather belt for my Kalamazoo 1x42 

The Shapton pro 2k is a great touchup stone for all kinds of knives. It is very dish resistant a true S&G.

Whatever works for your progression. My quality knives use gesshin soakers. Talking about the chosera 400 versatility, another stone like that on the higher end is the gesshin 4K. It an be used as a stand alone on well trained knives.


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## Peter

I use naniwa 220. I have two of them so I even them one on each other. Never used diamond plate. I use it to flatten all other stones. I find it hard with no particles poisoning to other stones. I jump from it right to AI1000. I tend to think these days its too big of a jump.


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## labor of love

Peter said:


> I use naniwa 220. I have two of them so I even them one on each other. Never used diamond plate. I use it to flatten all other stones. I find it hard with no particles poisoning to other stones. I jump from it right to AI1000. I tend to think these days its too big of a jump.


The expensive naniwa 220?


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## Peter

pink naniwa Traditional series T-901. I doesnt wear much at all.


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## never mind

Great idea Peter! Are the two somehow flat afterward or you get two convex stones? How often do you lap them or how concave before you lap them, just curious?



Peter said:


> ...[H]ave two of them so I even them one on each other....


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## Peter

Why they vould be conwex afterwards.
Afterwards they are true as my conscious. And I give them round after every session of using them. I dont like to push my stones to a visibly changed state. I got them for two years and they hold tight. Not much material removed max 1-3% few mm.

I have this method from shinichi. It works great


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## Matus

I find that one can indeed jump from the 220 (I use the pink brick from Bester) to AI1000 (a.k.a. Shapton Pro 1k) when working on the edge. On bevels I would use a 400 stone in between to make the scratch removal easier.


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## Foltest

Matus said:


> I find that one can indeed jump from the 220 (I use the pink brick from Bester) to AI1000 (a.k.a. Shapton Pro 1k) when working on the edge. On bevels I would use a 400 stone in between to make the scratch removal easier.


Same thing with Shapton pro 120. Jump to 1K on the edge without any issues


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## never mind

I don’t know about synthetic stones and I do not know why, but I read that Jnats will become convex with a 2 stone flattening method (still good) but the 3 stone rubbing rotation will make them flat, so I asked in the post. If it is a little convex, it’s still fine with me to consider doing, vs. super dished rough stones, so I have felt it is a very interesting method if it works well for synthetics.

I read that Iwasaki-san (the razor guy) has 3 same finishing stones, for example. The dish of my shapton glass 120x almost reaches the bottom now. Nice stone in my view. Think of what to buy next, maybe the sick black sigma 120x. Good price. Also good info from you, thank you.



Peter said:


> Why they vould be conwex afterwards....


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## Knife2meatu

Drayquan said:


> I got the glass 220 and love it. Speed-wise, it completely obliterates the King 300 deluxe, its really on a totally different level, FAR more than what you might expect from only an #80 grit difference.
> 
> Despite this, I still consider the King 300 one of the best value, cost effective coarse stones on the market. Although its nowhere near as fast cutting as the glass 220, it is SEVEN times as thick (King 300 = 34mm thick, shapton glass= 5mm).
> 
> 5mm thickness of the King 300 VS. Shapton Glass 220 (5mm thick total):
> For *the same amount of metal removal*, its hard to say which would actually last longer. Because of the cutting speed difference, this might be a little closer than you'd think.
> 
> Just consider if the speed makes it worth it for you personally.
> 
> Milimeter for Milimeter, most SG stones are somewhat justifiable because of their significant wear resistance, especially the higher grit you go; I havent tried the SG 120, however, the 220 glass dishes/wears noticably, signifincantly quicker than even the SG 500 (which I recently got also).
> 
> If you're on a strict budget and don't mind spending the extra time/effort on grinding work, the King 300 is an easy winner. If, for you, saving time and effort/energy is important, or if you sharpen professionally when often "time=money", then shapton glass 220 can make up for it's faster wearing/dishing, and higher relative cost.



I would like to find out just how fast the Glass #220 wears, but I'll hopefully be able to restrain myself and endure my ignorance -- I didn't curb my curiosity regarding the Shapton #220 Kuromaku/Pro -- despite the warning signs: www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuP0OTjLOY&feature=youtu.be&t=319 -- and it is just such a ridiculously, stupidly fast wearing stone from what I've experienced, particularly given its meager 15mm thinness.


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## Ivan Hersh

I started using my Naniwa Chosera #400 then #800 then #2000 , i first used my King #6000 for finishing but felt i need a little better finishing.
I then used my new King Super Gold#8000 finishing stone for the first time, i quickly noticed that it was really getting the results i wanted.


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## Ivan Hersh

Knife2meatu said:


> I would like to find out just how fast the Glass #220 wears, but I'll hopefully be able to restrain myself and endure my ignorance -- I didn't curb my curiosity regarding the Shapton #220 Kuromaku/Pro -- despite the warning signs:  -- and it is just such a ridiculously, stupidly fast wearing stone from what I've experienced, particularly given its meager 15mm thinness.



That green stone does not look like a Shapton #220 stone, the Shapton #220 i have seen are not green.


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## never mind

Oh, i think it’s moss color toward the yellow hue (220x shapton pro), where fern color would be toward green shade. The green of 2k shapton pro is greenest i think and the melon one from the 8k is the second greenest. Mint, i say!


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## Knife2meatu

Ivan Hersh said:


> That green stone does not look like a Shapton #220 stone, the Shapton #220 i have seen are not green.


It's most definitely a Shapton #220.


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## Ivan Hersh

never mind said:


> Oh, i think it’s moss color toward the yellow hue (220x shapton pro), where fern color would be toward green shade. The green of 2k shapton pro is greenest i think and the melon one from the 8k is the second greenest. Mint, i say!


Shapton Sharpening Ceramic whetstone wirepuller of edge Moss #220 not green.
https://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Shar...#220&qid=1553212989&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull


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## Ivan Hersh

Knife2meatu said:


> It's most definitely a Shapton #220.


Shapton Sharpening Ceramic whetstone wirepuller of edge Moss #220 not green.
https://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Shar...#220&qid=1553212989&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull


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## never mind

Thank you, Ivan Hersh, for your replies to me and Knife2meatu, a link and your participation in the forum. I appreciate your work.



I also believe you that you saw a green stone in the video, not a moss color stone. I also agree with you that shapton 220x is a moss color.



If I may elaborate more, from my view how I saw color in that video, I saw it as a moss color like I usually see from shapton 220x, which I might be wrong. When you replied, I thought of Dr. Naka that he would be able to hear what exactly the stone is from stereo sound, or if I study the vdo more thoroughly to pick up from other clues what stone it actually is, but I would leave it at that (I spent too much time on VDOs these days) and believe you that you see the stone as a green color sharpening stone. Perhaps it is.



Someone may also ask the guy on that VDO on youtube and read more details on the page. I skimed it as the title is shapton 220x where he compared it with his Bestor 220x stone, which he might post the wrong VDO up too, nobody knows these days. Peace.


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## Knife2meatu

@Ivan Hersh: I see that my link was precisely to a point in the video _right after_ he finished cursing out the Shapton, my bad -- and I now notice that there's a greener stone later on which is a Naniwa Pro #400. The stone he uses at the beginning of the video is most definitely a Shapton #220. Moss, yes -- a most frustrating stone.

edit: and funny enough, there's also a Naniwa Pro 1k later on -- so I guess it turns out there are a lot of green stones in the video, actually.


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## Ivan Hersh

Well anyway it was a thread to remember the video was hard to understand, thought it was just going to be about the Shapton 220x but then there was the large stone in the video.

But it's now been all explained so all is well, i quickly found out there are a lot of stones being offered, and you get many people making different posts as to how they found them to work.

With so many different knife steels i understand how these people get different results with their sharping, and why so many stones need flattening sooner then others using the same stones.


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## inferno

I have both the shapton pro 220 and the glass 220. 

the glass is faster than the pro, maybe 20% faster. 
the glass wears slower than the pro. maybe 20%.

both wear extremely fast compared to even the glass 500. not mentioning the glass 2k/pro2k's. these maybe wear like 100 times faster no kidding. but they remove material maybe 100 times faster too.

I mean i can see dishing in the stones from using them for about 1 minute. its not much but yes i can see it fro 50cm away. 

How do i combat this?? I dont. I do however not flatten them, i simply use the sides when they get "high" and then after a few minutes the stone is flat again. I have also noticed they cut faster if you leave the sludge on the stone instead of cleaning it off. and both these stones will produce a lot of stone slurry, if you press hard enough. and you will be since you want to get sh1t done fast, thats the only reason you got these stones in the first place. right. 

And these stones do deliver. My 220 glass is faster cutting than all my diamond stones. even the 160 diaflat! the mother of all diamonds! 

also the glass 220 is 7mm thick not 5mm as someone said. the rest of the higher grit stones are 5mm except for the 500 double thick which is 10mm. 

I'd say both the 2220 glass and pros are very very good and competent stones. these are actually slow wearing for the material they remove imo. but in absolute terms they are very fast wearing.

I'd say a 7mm glass will wear out in maybe 5-8 flattening/thinning jobs on SS, and the pro maybe last 1-2 rounds more. for actual sharpening and removing chips these will probably last a lifetime. no joke. 

I love both my 220ies, these are so brutal and fast i simply laugh when using them. this cutting action is almost unbelievable. and you will notice stone wear on a similar level.


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## inferno

yeah almost forgot: the glass you can obviously use up 100% of but the pro will most certainly crack in half at about 5mm thickness or so.

so either you glue the pro to something or you glue 2 of them together! then you can use up 100% of the stone. 
I have 2 220 pros glued together. but i guess you could glue the stone to whatever you like, I guess even wood would do (even though it would hold water and most certainly degrade/destroy the stone slowly).
The underside of a ceramic tile would be a better option imo. just make sure it a porous surface imo so the glue has something to bite into. 

I have used *1 component polyurethane glue*, its marketed as "waterproof wood glue" but it will glue almost anything. its the foaming type and likes having the surfaces lightly sprayed with water maybe a minute before applying the glue and pressing the surfaces together. the glue actually hardens with help of the oxygen and water vapor in the air. the second component of the glue is water  the water in the air.

also have a shapton pro 1k and 2k glued together with this type of glue. you will find it where ever they sell wood boards and mdf and similar. the 1/2k dual has been rock solid! not coming apart anything soon. i can assure you that.


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## Knife2meatu

@inferno I've spent several hours thinning down a Henkels Twin Master (57 HRC; I believe it's X50CrMoV15) and comparing the #220 Kuro/Pro to various other stones -- and in this case the Shapton makes absolutely no sense to me Vs. an Imanishi pink brick. Speed-wise it's hard to differentiate between both; and they leave very similar scratch patterns with their mud. Except the Shapton just melts away like crazy no matter how little pressure I put down; a_nd_ the Imanishi is wider and more than 3 times the thickness at 50mm. Hence, while the pink brick is roughly 60% more money, in this application I'd estimate that it would easily outlast 2 or even 3 of the Shaptons.

I know that Cliff Stamp discusses how harder steels cause less wear in a video wherein he mentions that he likes the Pro/Kuro #220 for working bevels on some of his knives -- the implication being that he likes it for some of his extremely hard, high carbide blades. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRCK2uZfSEU) This seems to agree with Shapton's own guidance chart which only recommends the #220 for High Speed Steel (HSS), whereas it gives the nod to the #320 for Japanese Sword; Swedish Steel; and Stainless Steel/Molybdenum Steel. Based on this I did try to find the hardest, most abrasion resistant thing I wanted to sharpen -- and while I only mustered a plane iron made of what I think is a low-alloy Swedish steel, heat treated to about 62-63 HRC -- it did reduce the abrasive release of the Shapton #220 somewhat, but still not nearly enough to justify the stone in my estimation.

I'm thinking that a combination of the Pro/Kuro #120/#320 would be much more efficient than the #220 for many, many applications. Now I'm just trying to think what hardened HSS I might have around to try and see if there's really a point at which the #220 makes sense compared to other stone choices.


----------



## inferno

*Knife2meatu*




I kinda doubt any pink brick will outlast any alu-oxide stone no matter how thick. first the pink bricks are usually friable silicon carbide and it wears fast as hell. secondly the pink bricks usually dont hold any water all it just all flows through. you specific pink brick might be different but its highly unlikely.

silicon carbide is usually used like this: you make a brick with no binder at all, just the carbide and then you soak it in oil. so it will hold its lubricant. the loosely "sintered" SiC fibers are very fragile so it will naturally expose new sharp edges (and wear fast) and this is what makes SiC good, that is it cracks down and exposes new sharp edges quickly. and if reverting to oil it will hold lube, and you need lube for all stones except non porous ones like spydercos to work. and the spydies load up in like 2 minutes (plz ask me how i know).

If i had any pink brick i would seal it with any kind of paint on all sides except from the top side. so water stays in the stone. remember there is no binder to break down here!

I olny have experience in industrial application with SiC and then its usually used on hardened steel because it cuts fast and then degrades to polish above its grade. But I'm not very impressed by this material at all.
A cheap industrial abrasive that is impressive though is boron carbide! only diamond and cbn is harder. boron carbide is usually used to grind/true alu oxide and SiC. its much more economical than diamond, and also diamond turns into a gas called carbon dioxide/monoxide at about 7-800deg C. 

btw is you spent several h thinning down that "dish bench steel" stainless knife you have you are doing it wrong imo. 1h ok 3h not so much. push harder! move faster. be more brutal. show the knife who is in charge. I feel i can almost push with my whole body weight when using shapton stones, sure i dont do it with higher grit ones. since i want to keep using them but low grit ones like sub 1k. well, then i dont really give F to be honest. i abuse to the very max i can. and none of the 220ies have disappointed. they are faster than my diamonds so then its all good for me. I also do 100% pressure on the diamonds. i simply dont give a F. i want results. as fast as possible.

-------------

i have no idea what cliff recommends but i know he is very knowledgeable regading abrasives and steels. one of the best. he is also also the most hated man in the kniofe community. since he tells the truth that no one wants to hear.

I personally buy all my stones based off forum discussions. i think i have only got 3 stones not based of internet forums discussions/recommendations. and its the diaflat 160 and the glass 500 and the glass 220. and neither of those did disappoint, and i got the 220 pro after that to see whats it was like. and all the ones i have gotten based of internet discussions performed just as people said they did! I knew exactly what i was getting. i love the internet. and many of the stones i got i based off judgment of the members here.

i think you would be wrong with the 320 stone though. its formulated for carbon steel only pretty much. an d i have read several threads/posts on here documenting its poor performance on SS. And even before this, i knew this was a carbon only stone. A retailer for this line said so like 10 years ago. the 120 as far as i know will melt away like 5 times as fast as the 220. i dont have it myself but hey if you read the forums a certain pattern establishes.

----------------

anyway use what works for you!! and thats the only way you should do things!!
you own opinion is worth 10000 trillion engineers and smiths and makers and other knowitalls. because its only you that live your life. so i would listen to me/you first. 


I cant state this enough. just because i have a certain stone that works well in my enviroment doesn't necessarily means the same stone will do the same for you!
different steel, different user, different weather, etc etc etc. I would take it more as "general probably will work good" recommendation. i always judge this if possible. and i also try to judge the skill/knowledge of the user. this says a lot. a lot! dont take recommendations like that. no questions asked. no way. you need more than that. but lets say if a user makes a good case, and he makes an impression of having knowledge of this then its good enough for me imo. i have not been disappointed yet. i guess its kinda "self regulating" this segment.


also the "shapton recommendations" is worth jack **** imo. dont make sense at all. only thing i know is that is that the 320 and 1500 pro is carbon only and will easily glaze on high alloy and or stainless. and many people have reported this over the years so it must be true. 

also 220, shapton and hss. hss is high alloyed (very high alloyed steel, look it up on wikipedia). i dont think they can even make that differentiation even if they wanted to be honest.
when i worked in manufacturing/machining we used alox wheel for all hardened steels. it worked just as well each and every time. we had 3 different grades and 3 different grits. blue was coarse/friable mostly for lower hardened tools, like hand tools. white was standard/medium finish, quite hard wheels. only for hss. softer steel would clog and possibly explode the wheels. then we had pink wheels these were fine grit, maybe twice as fine as the white ones. and these were for finishing stuff in hss only. or any other 55hrc plus steel kinda. other **** would clog.

but to be honest you could grind whatever you wanted on whatever you wanted wheel. to quite good success. might not be optimal. but it would work!
On my job now i try to get the idiots to only use the blue wheel for all their mild steel sh1t. and the white wheel for hardened steel. I think i have gotten like 10 out of like 100 people to understand this by now. baby steps, baby steps....

I guess almost all of this is off topic crapola  and I'm sorry for that.


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## Knife2meatu

@inferno Best I can tell, many "pink bricks" are pink alumina. From an abrasive manufacturer's literature:


> Pink Fused Aluminum Oxide contains chromium oxide, which gives the material its pink color. The incorporation of the Cr2O3 into the Al2O3 crystal lattice produces a slight increase in toughness and a reduced friability compared with White Fused Alumina. Compared to Brown Regular Aluminum Oxide the Pink material is harder, more aggressive and has better cutting ability. The grain shape of Pink Aluminum Oxide is sharp and angular.


As for how long it takes me to grind away 30 thou (15 per side) or so of thickness from most of a 10" Twin Master -- well, I'm sure it could be done faster if I weren't comparing several different stones for speed, wear and scratch pattern -- but considering how ridiculously fast the Shapton Pro/Kuro #220 melts away, I'm thinking it makes more sense for most users to take 5% or 10% more time if it can get done with a fraction of a Pink Brick instead of washing nearly an entire Shapton down the drain as prematurely released, largely unspent abrasive particles.

Part of the time I've spent on this protracted thinning session has also been trying out the Shapton Pro/Kuro #320 on different steels, both stainless and carbon and I'm not seeing any of this mythical advantage on carbon or loading on stainless. I find that it too wears faster than I like, and I'm thinking I'd be hard-pressed in finding a reason to pick it over the Cerax #320. That said, the Pro/Kuro #320 does shed grit less absurdly fast than the #220, at least with the selection of tools/knives I've so far used it with; and I've not seen it load, nor do I expect to see it on account of its still relatively high friability.

Perhaps the 1.5k will show some difference between carbon steel and stainless steel, but I doubt it. Of course I doubt this because of the Shapton chart (https://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-instructions.html) which we've already discussed elsewhere; which couldn't logically be interpreted as implying that the #320/#1500 Kuro/Pro Shaptons were meant _preferentially_ for carbon steel, and much less meant _specifically_ for carbon steel. I'm further convinced that Shapton doesn't intend the #320/#1500's at different alloys than the rest of the Pro/Kuro line-up, based on part of Shapton's own FAQ (http://www.shapton.co.jp/en/faq/) about the stones:


Shapton FAQ QUESTION said:


> Are any of the KUROMAKU sharpening stones recommended for normal household knives?





Shapton FAQ ANSWER said:


> We recommend the Orange Medium (1000) sharpening stone and Wine Fine (5000) finishing stone. If you intend to use only one stone, we recommend the Blue Medium (1500) sharpening stone.


It would make absolutely no sense for Shapton, who surely knows best how and why their stones work, to recommend the #1500 Pro/Kuro to replace a #1k/#5k two-stone combination if the #1.5k wasn't designed to be similarly capable as the 1k and 5k. And I'm sure you wouldn't deny the Shapton Pro/Kuro 1k's good performance on stainless -- so, _if it actually was the case that the Shapton Pro/Kuro #1500 was actually designed to be used exclusively on carbon steel... _Why in the world would Shapton not recommend the 2k to replace a 1k/5k progression instead of the #1500? It would make no sense at all... unless the simple truth is that these stones are similar enough in function with regards to different steel compositions, that it just makes more sense to recommend the #1500 to replace the 1k+5k because the 1.5k's grit level is simply better suited as a compromise to replace them both than is the 2k.


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## labor of love

Wow. Lots to unpack there. Definitely dislike pink brick for reasons stated above. Shapton glass 220 still sounds like it’s worth a purchase. Cerax 320 is hard to beat at its grit rating. If their is competition I’d like to hear more about it.


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## inferno

Knife2meatu said:


> @inferno Best I can tell, many "pink bricks" are pink alumina. From an abrasive manufacturer's literature:
> 
> As for how long it takes me to grind away 30 thou (15 per side) or so of thickness from most of a 10" Twin Master -- well, I'm sure it could be done faster if I weren't comparing several different stones for speed, wear and scratch pattern -- but considering how ridiculously fast the Shapton Pro/Kuro #220 melts away, I'm thinking it makes more sense for most users to take 5% or 10% more time if it can get done with a fraction of a Pink Brick instead of washing nearly an entire Shapton down the drain as prematurely released, largely unspent abrasive particles.
> 
> Part of the time I've spent on this protracted thinning session has also been trying out the Shapton Pro/Kuro #320 on different steels, both stainless and carbon and I'm not seeing any of this mythical advantage on carbon or loading on stainless. I find that it too wears faster than I like, and I'm thinking I'd be hard-pressed in finding a reason to pick it over the Cerax #320. That said, the Pro/Kuro #320 does shed grit less absurdly fast than the #220, at least with the selection of tools/knives I've so far used it with; and I've not seen it load, nor do I expect to see it on account of its still relatively high friability.
> 
> Perhaps the 1.5k will show some difference between carbon steel and stainless steel, but I doubt it. Of course I doubt this because of the Shapton chart (https://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-instructions.html) which we've already discussed elsewhere; which couldn't logically be interpreted as implying that the #320/#1500 Kuro/Pro Shaptons were meant _preferentially_ for carbon steel, and much less meant _specifically_ for carbon steel. I'm further convinced that Shapton doesn't intend the #320/#1500's at different alloys than the rest of the Pro/Kuro line-up, based on part of Shapton's own FAQ (http://www.shapton.co.jp/en/faq/) about the stones:
> 
> 
> It would make absolutely no sense for Shapton, who surely knows best how and why their stones work, to recommend the #1500 Pro/Kuro to replace a #1k/#5k two-stone combination if the #1.5k wasn't designed to be similarly capable as the 1k and 5k. And I'm sure you wouldn't deny the Shapton Pro/Kuro 1k's good performance on stainless -- so, _if it actually was the case that the Shapton Pro/Kuro #1500 was actually designed to be used exclusively on carbon steel... _Why in the world would Shapton not recommend the 2k to replace a 1k/5k progression instead of the #1500? It would make no sense at all... unless the simple truth is that these stones are similar enough in function with regards to different steel compositions, that it just makes more sense to recommend the #1500 to replace the 1k+5k because the 1.5k's grit level is simply better suited as a compromise to replace them both than is the 2k.



regarding the 320 and the 1500, believe what you want man, i'm not preaching a religion. but i have seen so many users stating the 1500 is glazing over on SS i'd say its proven fact beyond a doubt.
also this is the source, he was/is a retailer for shapton. and one of the first for the western world. if you look at shaptons own charts its BS all over. how come only the 10k and the 3k and the 30k is good for razors?? because shapton says so? its all just bs of course. all their charts are. but what you should really listen to is what i'm telling you.  lol sounds good right.

you be your own judge but when you get this or that stone and it performs like crap dont come pointing fingers. you were warned.

also why do you think they have 3 stones under 500??
why do they have 3 stones from 1 to 2k??

yeah? are you getting the picture now?

https://jendeindustries.wordpress.c...oduction-to-the-shapton-pro-and-glass-series/




expand dong! 






> I was asked to put together something to help people discern between the different Shapton product lines by Locutus, a respected member of The Knife Forums. This is my first installment.
> 
> First, a little background information. I have been a Shapton retailer sine 2004, and have used the Professional and Glass Series almost exclusively in that time – by choice. I sharpen many different things outside of the forum’s normal Japanese/Western kitchen and EDC knives, including woodworking tools, reed knives, straight razors, beautician and medical scissors, periodontal instruments, and orthodontic cutters and pliers.
> 
> OK, so first thing first – Shapton has 2 main product lines in the US – Professional and Glass. There are several more lines – some have been discontinued over the years and others are not readily available in the US. (I hope to cover them in another installment, later.)
> 
> The Professional series have 10 stones, with some specifically formulated for carbon or stainless steels(or Japanese or Western knives and planes). They are really designed to be used in a *coarse* to *medium* to *fine* progression.
> 
> *Coarse:*
> 
> #120 – (White) – This stone is very aggressive, but tends to need a lot of maintenance to keep it flat and to keep it aggressive. (IME, Chisel users like this stone remove chips, but I generally don’t recommend it for kitchen knives)
> 
> #220 – (Moss Green) This stone is “harder” and is formulated for stainless steel.
> *
> 
> #320 – (Dark Blue) This stone is “softer” and is formulated for carbon steel.*
> 
> *Medium:*
> 
> #1,000 – (Orange) This stone is labeled _Coarse/Medium_, and is formulated for stainless steel.
> *
> 
> #1,500 – (Lighter Blue) This stone is formulated for carbon steel and IMO, is a great 1 stone solution for minor repairs and edge maintenance.*
> 
> #2,000 – (light Green) This stone is formulated for both carbon and stainless, and is one of my favorite, although very under used, stones.
> 
> *Fine:*
> 
> #5,000 – (Wine Red) This stone is pivotal in the Shapton pro series. It is a dense stone that produces the first mirror finish. It sets the stage for the finer polishing stones while producing an excellent edge for most conventional knives and tools.
> 
> #8,000 – (Melon Green) This stone takes the 5K to the next level. I find it “rubby”, but yet it always produces a wonderful finish and edge. (While I always recommend going from the medium to the 5K first before going to the 8K, this stone can also be used in a 2K-8K progression.)
> 
> #15,000 (Yellow) This stone takes everything even further. It is a “softer” stone and really puts a wonderful finish on an edge. (The Japanese version of this stone is the 12K. The only difference seems to be the packaging. The reasons for the numbering differences are unknown by me, and I do not have the 12K myself. I do not see why only one stone would be different or why each would not be offered in the other’s market.)
> 
> #30,000 (Purple) This is a truly wonderful stone, although it is _very_ expensive. It is dense and hard, and takes sushi knives and razors to the ultimate level.
> 
> ——
> 
> The Glass stones are the second main Shapton stone line. They were specifically formulated to accommodate the cold-hardened Lie-Nielsen A-2 plane blades, which are RC 63. (The Pro series will work on the Lie-Nielsen blades, but at 5K +, the feedback feels a little weird.) The Glass Stone series is considerably softer than the pros (relatively speaking – they are nowhere near as soft as a Norton 4K) in order to keep a steady supply of fresh abrasive to cut through the hard steel.
> 
> It should be noted that Shapton stones seem to be aimed at the woodworking market, mainly plane and chisel blades. I won’t expand too much on this in this installment, but the reason I bring it up is because the Glass Stones’ 5mm of abrasive vs. the 15mm on the pros have reduced the weight and cost of the Glass Stones, making them more affordable, and therefore very desirable for many other sharpening applications, such as kitchen knives. The technology for the hard steel also made the Glass stones very attractive to the more exotic steels used in many tactical, fixed blades, custom knives, etc.
> 
> With some help from Jim Rion from the SRP, I was directed a very good chart on a Japanese website that explains what each glass stone is ideal for (and I pretty much agree with). It has been translated below. You’ll note that there are several stones that are not available in the US, and that there are 3 gray colored JP (Japan) Glass Stones.
> 
> 
> 
> The “regular” Glass stones are white in color, and in the US come in #220, #500, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k, 6k, 8k, 16k, and 30k. The gray JP Glass stones are gray in color, and are formulated for carbon steel. The three JP stones are available in the US. (Only the #120, #320, and 10K are not.) In my mind, the JP stones are like the Shapton Pros with Glass Stone technology. As far as I know, there are only the 4k, 6k, and 8k in these JP stones, and that there *is not* an entire set of JP stones. (If there is proof otherwise, please let me know!)
> 
> While the Pro series was designed to go from coarse, to medium, to fine, the Glass series is pretty much mathematical, with doublings along the whole series. These stones are also broken down by the abrasive sizes in microns, giving a clearer indication of what each stone is doing.
> 
> Thanks!



a bullsh1t image that means almost next to nothing. talking from own experience.


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## inferno

and to be honest i dont think neither you or i have the authority to question what i just posted. since neither you or i are are retailers of these stones. nor have we been from 2004!! so we have to regard this a s fact. do you agree??


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## Knife2meatu

@inferno

Okay, I'll be right back after grinding both stainless & carbon on the #1500. Will a Victorinox pairing knife and a vintage plane iron from the 19th century suffice as stand-ins for "stainless" & "carbon" steels?


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## inferno

now this was a few years since this was written and i have actually tried both the 6k and 8k gray stones (this is what cleancut in sweden sells/sold, without telling their customers i might add, when ordrering as 6 or 8k glass), now it happens to be that i also had access to both 6k and 8k white glass and 8k pro. and another 8k to really really test these stones. and i did. i actually had 3 stone holders loaded at the same time. taking less than a second to swap between the stones. to not cloud my judgement you know. keeping it scientific as far as possible.

and to be honest. the white glass is about 50% faster working than the gray glass. and the pro is the same speed as the white but simply feels different. and also loads up different (more).
the gray glass polishes and finishes above the 12k pro, thats the price you pay, its slightly slower but finishes way above its grit. way way above. its the same with the 6k. i'd say the 6k gray. finishes about the same as the 12k pro. 

and guess what. they all works equally good for stainless, carbon, hss, you name it. go ****ing figure! how can this be. when all their charts says otherwise. 

because its all simply bull fukking sh1t, through and through. and its there is to it. 

I have tested the products at least so i know goddamn well how they work. and i also own or have owned almost all their stones they have ever made.


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## inferno

Knife2meatu said:


> @inferno
> 
> Okay, I'll be right back after grinding both stainless & carbon on the #1500. Will a Victorinox pairing knife and a vintage plane iron from the 19th century suffice as stand-ins for "stainless" & "carbon" steels?



id say go with 2 different knives or 2 different plane irons, ss/carbon.


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## inferno

also to quantify the results easier its obviously easier to use bigger knives like 240ies or so. or 200s. you at the very least will have to use the same length. otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges. and nothing of what you find out will matter at all to be honest. unfortunately.


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## inferno

I'd say a valid test would be to flatten/kill the edge completely on a stone of your choice with 100 destroying swipes, back and forth, 90degrees straight up. then both knives will be totally reset. and you will also have to work quite a bit to establish an edge on them.


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## Knife2meatu

@inferno
Yeah, I agree with you that similar test media and prolonged tests following a set protocol would be useful -- but this had to be quick and dirty for a number of reasons. Not the least of them being why I'd stopped sharpening a couple of hours ago after I sliced a small bit of fingertip off; that combined with the goodish amount of fingertip skin I abraded messing around with low-grit stones for that last 2 days, meant that it was a good time to stop for the day. So no prolonged testing, I'm afraid.

The other issue is that my knives are virtually all the same kind of Sanelli/Henkels/Fibrox stainless steels, while my tool blades as mainly hardened carbon/low-alloy, so I unfortunately cannot easily make up an ideal testing pair like you suggest.

Nevertheless, I did both large area work and edge work; on both the 63-ish HRC carbon tool steel and on the 57 HRC stainless knife; across the 1k, 1.5k and 2k. And, honestly, they act like you would expect from 3 very similar stones, just varying in grits.

None of the 3 loads/clogs on edge work with either steel, and all three have a tendency to loose aggression on wide areas when the water dries out in patches. All three can then be made to work again fine by rubbing the loading or adding water. All three rinse clean very easily as long as the mud doesn't dry out. None of them gets particularly discolored by loading when they've been rinsed off.

Mind you, this was the very first time I used the 1.5k, and I did find it to be quicker drying/thirstier than the 2 others which I've used for a while now. But I think that's usual with the Shapton Pro the first time they get used -- in fact Shapton recommends soaking them for 5 minutes prior to first use, but only then and not afterwards. I didn't soak the 1.5k for the recommended 5 minutes. But then again, I didn't do so with the other the first times I used them and, although my memory is a little hazy, I seem to recall that they were indeed a touch thirstier at the start.

Maybe there's some real, albeit not huge difference there, besides grit; maybe it shows up more with different combination of pressure and steel. I'm sure I'll come to a firmer determination, one way or the other, with time and usage. But from the first impression I got, the Blue*Medium doesn't differ more than I would've expected from the Orange*Medium and the Green*Medium.


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## inferno

you could also just try using the same blade, ss, on the different stones for an equal amount of strokes or similar. you will probably get a feel for if one or another stone feel slower than it should if you have 3 stones to test with.or judge material removal after like 2-300 strokes or so. 

What i have read at least is that the 1500 "gets slow" pretty fast with SS. and needs to be refreshed. I have read probably 10 reports of this. and since i have both the 1k and the 2k pro i know this simply does not happen with those 2. my usual victims for these stones are cheap ass SS at like 52-58hrc (globals being the upper end here). I can go for as long as i want on both of these and they will never lose bite or clog.

if the fibrox is victorinox this will be one of the most smeary SS. i personally had no problems sharpeing it. and used if as my main knife for about a year. and it gets crazy sharp. it got so sharp i cut my owm finger to the bone without feeling a thing. no shhit. need to pay more attention  i guess. that was off the white rods off a sharpmaker though. 30 degree.

i never soak any of my pro stones. i simply splash water on them and then let that soak in for maybe one minute and then splash some more on there, then they are done. they dont really absorb any water visually. but i know they absorb some. otherwise they wouldn't dry out.


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## rick alen

Shapton wire puller of edge moss, what is this?

https://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Shar...+220&qid=1553348989&s=gateway&sr=8-3-fkmrnull


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## Ivan Hersh

I was digging around in some of my material samples, and found this _COOR'S _ Ceramic Armor Surfacing Stone, this sample was for a wearing area surfacing in a pulverizer machine.

I decided to try using it on a cheap knife with really hard steel that has resisted sharping using my normal stones.

I was quickly in a very few pass's on wet stone, surprised to see how quickly this Coors stone got the blade sharper then 
i had ever before got it.

Anyone ever seen this Coors material being used for knife sharping?


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## foody518

Knife2meatu said:


> @inferno
> Yeah, I agree with you that similar test media and prolonged tests following a set protocol would be useful -- but this had to be quick and dirty for a number of reasons. Not the least of them being why I'd stopped sharpening a couple of hours ago after I sliced a small bit of fingertip off; that combined with the goodish amount of fingertip skin I abraded messing around with low-grit stones for that last 2 days, meant that it was a good time to stop for the day. So no prolonged testing, I'm afraid.
> 
> The other issue is that my knives are virtually all the same kind of Sanelli/Henkels/Fibrox stainless steels, while my tool blades as mainly hardened carbon/low-alloy, so I unfortunately cannot easily make up an ideal testing pair like you suggest.
> 
> Nevertheless, I did both large area work and edge work; on both the 63-ish HRC carbon tool steel and on the 57 HRC stainless knife; across the 1k, 1.5k and 2k. And, honestly, they act like you would expect from 3 very similar stones, just varying in grits.
> 
> None of the 3 loads/clogs on edge work with either steel, and all three have a tendency to loose aggression on wide areas when the water dries out in patches. All three can then be made to work again fine by rubbing the loading or adding water. All three rinse clean very easily as long as the mud doesn't dry out. None of them gets particularly discolored by loading when they've been rinsed off.
> 
> Mind you, this was the very first time I used the 1.5k, and I did find it to be quicker drying/thirstier than the 2 others which I've used for a while now. But I think that's usual with the Shapton Pro the first time they get used -- in fact Shapton recommends soaking them for 5 minutes prior to first use, but only then and not afterwards. I didn't soak the 1.5k for the recommended 5 minutes. But then again, I didn't do so with the other the first times I used them and, although my memory is a little hazy, I seem to recall that they were indeed a touch thirstier at the start.
> 
> Maybe there's some real, albeit not huge difference there, besides grit; maybe it shows up more with different combination of pressure and steel. I'm sure I'll come to a firmer determination, one way or the other, with time and usage. But from the first impression I got, the Blue*Medium doesn't differ more than I would've expected from the Orange*Medium and the Green*Medium.



I don't remember my Shapton 1.5k loading on edge work on your typical American/German stainless steel kitchen knives, either. Maybe I'll pull it out again and verify


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## Peter

never mind said:


> Great idea Peter! Are the two somehow flat afterward or you get two convex stones? How often do you lap them or how concave before you lap them, just curious?



Btw just crossed my mind having two 220 stones makes it having 4 surfaces to even. So rather having 3 stone evening i have 4. That's why it sounded odd. I have them even because 4 surfaces of two stones evening in sequences. I have them flat as emotions of a robot.


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## never mind

Good idea, Peter. Thanks for a follow-up thought. Maybe it’s only you & me who are nuts enough to have 2 same rough stones. 


Time flew, and after I finished up a shapton glass 120x to its very bottom, I bought two of the nasty sigma oribest 120x stones to follow what you’ve tried & confirmed in using two same stones (I read chinacats’s thread about sigma 120x). 


...Well, I mounted them on cheap wood, so it’s not the best idea as I have only 2 total sides, vs. your 4 even surfaces! It’s just a habit to mount all my stones. Yes, the 120x stones remain flat, but mine over time are no longer leveled. It bends one way toward one corner, but the surfaces are flat and the stones got much thinner now. It’s usable tho, no complaints! I don’t want to spend more time to grind them to be leveled.


----------



## Knife2meatu

never mind said:


> [...]Maybe it’s only you & me who are nuts enough to have 2 same rough stones.


I'm sure you're not the only ones.


> I bought two of the nasty sigma oribest 120x stones to follow what you’ve tried & confirmed in using two same stones (I read chinacats’s thread about sigma 120x).


I have a small (206mm x 53mm x 25mm, iirc) Sigma 120 from their "Ceramic" line: The stone itself looks virtually identical to the Oribest, except for the box, which is black instead of green, I think. I've been wondering about the Oribest; the other Oribest stones seem to have a reputation for being more friable and, I believe, faster cutting on account of it, than the Ceramic. I wonder if we can get somebody who's used both to chime in.

I find the Ceramic 120 cuts fast, but tends to slow down due to loading and the abrasive round over, instead of dishing. So mine gets refreshed with loose SiC on glass faster than it goes out of flat.


> Well, I mounted them on cheap wood, so it’s not the best idea as I have only 2 total sides, vs. your 4 even surfaces! It’s just a habit to mount all my stones. Yes, the 120x stones remain flat, but mine over time are no longer leveled. It bends one way toward one corner, but the surfaces are flat and the stones got much thinner now. It’s usable tho, no complaints! I don’t want to spend more time to grind them to be leveled.


I do enjoy having my Sigma 120 permasoaked for convenience and improved clogging resistance, and I don't suppose I could leave it in water if it were mounted to wood, which is sort of what has me wondering if the Oribest and Ceramic are considerably different.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Are you mounting the shapton glass stones on wood? Even larger soakers I use only one side until worn thin. At work big Kings would get flipped when one side too dished. Keep my stones pretty flat so no need to flip.

Only shaptons I have used are 2K green pro. They make good touch up stones for gyuto. Better Imo to using steels or ceramic rods.

The 220 glass posted in this thread only 39.00 pretty cheap. Might try one out not going to pay for a glass stone holder. Mounting seems like a good option.


----------



## never mind

Oh my bad, if there are the bases coming with the stones, i don’t mount wood on them (like shapton glass 120x with the glass base, kitayama 8k, king 4k and 6k with the plastic/wooden bases) so to use to the last mm of it. 


The shapton 2k green pro was cracked to many pieces, and I glued them to the wooden base, no problem. I saw some kitayama 8k cracked too but still useable with the base, while my shapton glass stones never crack (yet).


I don’t use shapton 2k green pro much these days. I learn that when i sharpen and maintain many knives at a time, it’s faster for me to just grab shapton 500x or 1k, and finish/polish quickly on shapton 5k and other stone finishers, or like you I just steel the knives (dmt die fold). 


If I had money, I also might buy more rough shapton stones (cleaner and more enjoyable to use at home, and slimmer, lighter during traveling to my relatives’ homes) rather than sigma oribest 120x, which is much thicker in a bagpack and messier/louder during use & flattening. The sigma is economical fo me ($30). It thinned and ground more knives now than my shapton glass 120x stone ($42).


I admit that sometimes i have a daydream about shapton stone holders. I don’t like using a shapton pro box as a stone holder because it is light and shaky during sharpening. If I were to have lots of money, the shapton glass stone holder maybe useful. My regular rubber stone holders cannot be used for the very last mm of shapton glass because the rubber holders have the lips thicker/taller than the thickness of the well-worn shapton glass (I need to put other materials under the shapton glass to raise it enough above that lips, which is annoying when switching many stones during the sharpening session).


----------



## never mind

Knife2meatu said:


> I do enjoy having my Sigma 120 permasoaked for convenience and improved clogging resistance



That’s a good idea to soak it. 

When i flip the rough sigma oribest 120x down to flatten, i hurt my palm more during a few hours grinding than when i have the wooden base on it. I have to flatten sigma 120x more often than other rough stones that I have, but I don’t mind it. I had tried flattening the sigma 120x oribest without a base and it hurt my hand more, but maybe it’s just me.


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> Alexa, Open the Coconut....





never mind said:


> Oh my bad, if there are the bases coming with the stones, i don’t mount wood on them (like shapton glass 120x with the glass base, kitayama 8k, king 4k and 6k with the plastic/wooden bases) so to use to the last mm of it.
> 
> 
> The shapton 2k green pro was cracked to many pieces, and I glued them to the wooden base, no problem. I saw some kitayama 8k cracked too but still useable with the base, while my shapton glass stones never crack (yet).
> 
> 
> I don’t use shapton 2k green pro much these days. I learn that when i sharpen and maintain many knives at a time, it’s faster for me to just grab shapton 500x or 1k, and finish/polish quickly on shapton 5k and other stone finishers, or like you I just steel the knives (dmt die fold).
> 
> 
> If I had money, I also might buy more rough shapton stones (cleaner and more enjoyable to use at home, and slimmer, lighter during traveling to my relatives’ homes) rather than sigma oribest 120x, which is much thicker in a bagpack and messier/louder during use & flattening. The sigma is economical fo me ($30). It thinned and ground more knives now than my shapton glass 120x stone ($42).
> 
> 
> I admit that sometimes i have a daydream about shapton stone holders. I don’t like using a shapton pro box as a stone holder because it is light and shaky during sharpening. If I were to have lots of money, the shapton glass stone holder maybe useful. My regular rubber stone holders cannot be used for the very last mm of shapton glass because the rubber holders have the lips thicker/taller than the thickness of the well-worn shapton glass (I need to put other materials under the shapton glass to raise it enough above that lips, which is annoying when switching many stones during the sharpening session).



Put a stone or diamond plate in the box.


----------



## never mind

Thank you, I should put a stone in the box


----------



## stringer

never mind said:


> My regular rubber stone holders cannot be used for the very last mm of shapton glass because the rubber holders have the lips thicker/taller than the thickness of the well-worn shapton glass (I need to put other materials under the shapton glass to raise it enough above that lips, which is annoying when switching many stones during the sharpening session).



I trim the rubber pieces on my stone holders to accommodate shorter height or longer length stones.


----------



## stringer

Here's some pics.

Cut the top off for worn SG stones



Take the middle thing out to accommodate shorty stones




Trim the stops back as far as you can to accommodate big guys


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Thanks Stringer I have a couple of those could lose the center block & trim the edge pieces on one of them.


----------



## stringer

Suehiro makes a stone holder that's just two separate rubber things with no connector rods. I won one in an eBay auction along with a Debado 200. I will let you all know how I feel about both of them in a week or two after I get a chance to test them out.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yes I have seen those much cheaper than the over priced shapton glass stone holders. Always wanted to try the glass stones. They sell both the pro's & the glass at Cherry Japanese Imports here.


----------



## kayman67

Just find someone to make you a few plexiglass pieces and double tape them to SG as needed. They can be reused. Problem solved for me. Albeit I have a Shapton holder as well these days, but I rarely use it.


----------



## stringer

I bought a little vintage Kikuichi Gyuto. I think they actually call it a bunka. Stainless clad Vg5 or 10. It gave me a great opportunity to test out the Debado 200. I picked this up with the suehiro 2-part rubber stand for about $50USD on auction. The 200 retails for 85-100$ and the stand for $15-20. Both are BNIB. I love it. It's faster and actually slightly coarser than my Crystolon without the mess of oil. However, it's still messy. It's a very muddy stone. I'm sure it will dish like crazy. The sound is not as loud or annoying as the Crystolon or the King 320. It's way faster than the King 320. Without all the baloney required to keep it cutting that comes with the King 320. It's massive. An inch wider and longer than most Japanese stones. But not really tall. Maybe 25mm. I can measure later if folks are interested. I'll have to reserve judgement on whether I would pay full retail for it until after I see how fast it dishes. But it cuts beautifully so far.


----------



## PappaG

Nice. Killer deal. Those Debados are next on my list of stones to try. I hope the prices come down, or I can find deals like that.


----------



## Knife2meatu

@stringer I'm very curious to get an idea how fast the Debado wears. Is this the MD-20 model? It sounds like you got a great deal. 

But considering the usual going price, it would need to do _something _at least a little special, it seems to me. How thirsty is it?


----------



## stringer

Knife2meatu said:


> @stringer I'm very curious to get an idea how fast the Debado wears. Is this the MD-20 model? It sounds like you got a great deal.
> 
> But considering the usual going price, it would need to do _something _at least a little special, it seems to me. How thirsty is it?




Yes the MD 20. It's very, very thirsty. If you don't keep adding water pretty constantly it quickly turns to sludge. So I have a feeling it will wear rather quickly. I did get a great deal. Just one of those lucky times on the Bay. I tend to see things that interest me and then bid what I would be willing to pay for it. 9 times out of 10 someone is willing to pay a little more than I am. But every once in awhile something flies under the radar and ends up in my little workshop. I had bid on it with 3 weeks left in the auction and then forgot about it. Unexpected "Pay Now" messages are not usually pleasant surprises. I am really enjoying it so far. Would I enjoy it as much at $100? Too soon to tell.


----------



## Knife2meatu

@stringer This is the MD-20's description from MTC Kitchen -- whom I feel have some of the most informative blurbs, anywhere, about the stones they sell --


MTC Kitchen said:


> The Debado MD line is an extra-wide series that were developed to be an easy solution to sharpening small blades which can often be sharpened along the entire length at once. The extra width makes sharpening longer knives and thinning more comfortable as well as there is a larger area for the blade to rest and a more consistent result may be achieved.
> 
> The Debado 200# MD is very similar in look and feel to most standard "green brick" coarse stones that may be found from any number of brands. The remarkable thing about this stone, however, is that it is splash and go, which anyone with experience with coarse stones in this grit range is somewhat rare. In use this stone feels very comparable to a traditional coarse 200-240 green brick but with a thinner mud and much less wear. Scratch depth is comparable while cutting speed may be slightly slower, but not significantly. This stone is wonderful for heavy thinning work on single bevels. It does not produce the "halo" effect above the shinogi line that the Shapton Traditional 120 does and the scratches are not quite as deep.



Perhaps you can later critique their appraisal, in light of your first hand experience with the stone.

Like I said before, wear rate and water absorption are, to my mind, what could more-or-less justify this thing's frankly high asking price. Although the bit about the "halo" is interesting too; I don't usually think of how thick or thin the mud is as impacting those scratches above the bevel, but it makes a whole lot of sense.


----------



## stringer

Knife2meatu said:


> @stringer
> 
> Perhaps you can later critique their appraisal, in light of your first hand experience with the stone.
> 
> Like I said before, wear rate and water absorption are, to my mind, what could more-or-less justify this thing's frankly high asking price. Although the bit about the "halo" is interesting too; I don't usually think of how thick or thin the mud is as impacting those scratches above the bevel, but it makes a whole lot of sense.



Bigger is definitely better. The usable surface area of the stone is outstanding. I have tried it splash and go and with a fifteen minute soak. There wasn't too much difference in performance. I can only compare it to other stuff I have used. I haven't tried a traditional green brick or a Shapton 120. I can tell you that it is about ten times muddier and faster wearing than my king 320. It's at least twice as fast wearing as my Shapton Glass 500. It's not muddier than my Suehiro 1000 or King 800. The scratch pattern is very similar to my Crystolon coarse. The King 320 didn't have any problem removing the 200 pattern in just a few minutes. So far I have about an hour on the stone working with that little Kikuichi. Here is the wear compared to a flat marble slab. 






I probably will never flatten it. I usually don't bother with coarse stones. The size of this stone will also be an asset in keeping it level. You can have nice long strokes in about any direction or orientation.


----------



## M1k3

Hrm, I was hoping it wasn't nearly as muddy. I'm looking for something that acts similar to the SG 500, much much coarser. Like 120-220 range. But good score nonetheless.


----------



## kayman67

As far as I was told, you might like Nano hone 200. I didn't managed to get one just yet. Working on it.


----------



## M1k3

kayman67 said:


> As far as I was told, you might like Nano hone 200. I didn't managed to get one just yet. Working on it.



Yeah, that one is on my short list that just had this debado taken off of. I might just have to get it. Really hate my Naniwa SS 220.


----------



## Carl Kotte

M1k3 said:


> . Really hate my Naniwa SS 220.



How so? [emoji848]


----------



## M1k3

Carl Kotte said:


> How so? [emoji848]



Seems to create more mud and dish more than it cuts, even with light pressure.


----------



## Knife2meatu

M1k3 said:


> Seems to create more mud and dish more than it cuts, even with light pressure.


I reserve mine for the very hardest, very largest-area applications. For grinding out pitting from the hardened face-side of vintage plane irons, it's a real champ, considering how splash-&-go it is. I think it does a good job of replacing one of those huge SiC bricks, if one want the convenience of a splasher.

For the opposite sort of applications, it really is stupidly muddy and melty, though. And kind of expensive, relatively speaking.


----------



## M1k3

Knife2meatu said:


> I reserve mine for the very hardest, very largest-area applications. For grinding out pitting from the hardened face-side of vintage plane irons, it's a real champ, considering how splash-&-go it is. I think it does a good job of replacing one of those huge SiC bricks, if one want the convenience of a splasher.
> 
> For the opposite sort of applications, it really is stupidly muddy and melty, though. And kind of expensive, relatively speaking.



I can see that use. It leaves a decent finish, for the grit. Just sucks at thinning, especially mono stainless.


----------



## inferno

m1k3 and stringer have you guys tried the shapton pro 220? "moss green"

I think this is quite a good stone imo. keep on cutting, dishes quite slow for the abrasive power it provides and its cheap.
and it just works. dont know if anyone of you remember my beer can dura marathon with my cheapie aus-8 deba. the beer cans kinda won. but it only took me 1h to remove the chips, and its 6mm thick single bevel steel. and the stone only dished about 2mm or so after that.


----------



## M1k3

inferno said:


> m1k3 and stringer have you guys tried the shapton pro 220? "moss green"
> 
> I think this is quite a good stone imo. keep on cutting, dishes quite slow for the abrasive power it provides and its cheap.
> and it just works. dont know if anyone of you remember my beer can dura marathon with my cheapie aus-8 deba. the beer cans kinda won. but it only took me 1h to remove the chips, and its 6mm thick single bevel steel. and the stone only dished about 2mm or so after that.



I haven't tried it yet. Sounds good. Debating Nanohone 200 and SG or Pro 120 and/or 220. 

The Debado that Stringer got has been removed from the choices.


----------



## inferno

get the cheapest one! if its good then it good.

My usual strategy is to get all of them though 

To remove doubts of uncertainty...


----------



## M1k3

inferno said:


> get the cheapest one! if its good then it good.
> 
> My usual strategy is to get all of them though



That's what I was thinking. Start cheap and keep going until I hit the jackpot.


----------



## SeattleBen

My problem starting cheap is that I often end up getting upset with it and then buying whatever it was I thought I wanted to start with. Though with the stones it’s really hard to tell until you get your hands on one.


----------



## labor of love

Aren’t all coarse stones cheap? Haha 
Just drop the extra $20 and get a good one.


----------



## M1k3

When I said cheap, I meant in my list of stones I'm interested in, not all stones in general.


----------



## suntravel

Fastest stone fot thinning I ever had ist the Shapton Pro120, but needs to be flatted with coarse SiC Powder to keep th agressive cutting.

A new Atoma140 is a bit faster, but only for the first minutes.

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Cbt

The guy from Kasé Knives at instagram was praising the vitrified diamond stone 400# from practical sharpening as the best coarse sharpening stone that he is aware of.

His ig id is @kknives_switzerland.

I haven't tried them so I have no idea if they are that good


----------



## M1k3

suntravel said:


> Fastest stone fot thinning I ever had ist the Shapton Pro120, but needs to be flatted with coarse SiC Powder to keep th agressive cutting.
> 
> A new Atoma140 is a bit faster, but only for the first minutes.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



So it acts similar to Crystolon/India stones?


----------



## suntravel

Crystolon is an SiC Stone, imho good and fast for grinding bevels, but needs to much pressure for thinning and is not as fast as Shapton 120.

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Knife2meatu

@suntravel You may have a point about the Crystolon and the pressure, but I don't quite know -- I've got a wrist strain which would tend to agree. But then, it could be from lots of things...

I have a JUM4 of recent manufacture which requires very little pressure to work. Very large stone, works very fast. But although it releases grit easily; and works, like I said, with light pressure; it requires some oil every little while to keep the surface going, otherwise the oily mud tends to cake and clog the stone -- loosens right up with a few drops, though. And never seems to require re-conditioning of the surface.

On the other hand, I have vintage 50's-60's Crystolons which are very hard and, like you say, don't hardly work well on anything much larger than a 1/8th bevel: they just won't shed the abrasive, so it wears out and starts burnishing unless the pressure is much higher than the JUM4 I first mentioned. Those stay very flat however; much nicer for grinding bevels of straight edged wood tools. But unlike that first stone, they can require reconditioning.

Mind you, I'm just talking about the coarse side of those particular combination stones; the fine side of both is quite similar.

What I'm getting at is, I don't quite know what the difference is due to: Is the JUM4 particularly softer by design? Did they change their recipe for the coarse side, meaning all newer stones are like it? Or is it just variance in the manufacturing?

I have a bunch of other Crystolons, too -- from the 90's and 00's -- and they're mainly harder than the JUM4 coarse side, but softer than those old ones. Based on the quite recently made JUM4, I'd maintain that Crystolons make good thinning stones. But I don't know if that extends to the smaller recently-made ones -- which I would expect --, or to all older vintages -- which I wouldn't presume.

Again, this may be due to some manufacturing variance, by which token not even all recently-made JUM4's could be assumed to be equal. But taking such a wide variance for granted makes it impossible to extrapolate from the small sample I have, so I'm going to figure that same model stones, from similar manufacturing periods, behave similarly.

And although I'm not quite sure that the Shapton Pro 120 is in fact faster -- it may be; I have a hard time estimating such things -- that which endears the 12"x2.5"x1.5" JUM4 to me is how big it is compared to the Shapton. For the money...


----------



## inferno

a good coarse stone would maybe be a combo shapton pro120/220 diy.


----------



## inferno

Hey guys i bought a new coarse stone, the robotic stone!

















I made a 15n20 blade at work (62-63hrc or so probably, might be higher) that i ground "almost done". i left about 1-1,5mm at the very edge. we have an industrial belt grinder and i didn't wanna ruin the temper since this grinder is high speed, so i left some for the stones. little did i know it would take hours and hours to work that 1,5mm down to an edge on stones...

every other day i grind for 30 minutes or so alternating between the shappro220 and the diaflat 160. and today i guess i had about 1h left until i can put an edge on this blade.

But today i used the parkside robotic belt grinder stone. and it did all that 1h stone work work in 3 minutes! yeah 

Well i had been thinking about getting one of these hand held belt grinders for some time now. i think they are made for planks of wood mostly, like rough work. otherwise you use oscillating ones. the cheapest brand names ones start at about 80-90€bux. However these are crap machines most likely. a blue bosch is 250 or so. and a really heavy duty pro one is probably 4-500€.

a few days ago i saw that Lidl (a food/supermarket chain in europe) had these cheap ass belt grinders. 600w motor. and they didn't look any worse than the cheap brand ones. 40€. i can live with that.
So today i got one. "parkside" brand. it uses the shortest belts, 457x75mm, so this is definitely the amateur segment. But i found good quality belts for it locally, bosch makes them. 1,5€ each. I got the 80 grit belts. there was also 40/60/120. the 80 grit belt creates a finish similar to a 500 stone.

so it turns out this machine had some good features that the cheap brand name ones dont have. not even the expensive ones.

pros:
*10-20x faster than any stone, without any effort at all.
*cheap; 40€, belts 15€ for 10. (it came with one 80 grit belt)
*adjustable belt speed that has a suitable range for knives imo.
*actually made to work upside down without wobbling or falling over.
*came with 2 metal special clamps to mount it upside down on a board (up to maybe 50mm thick boards work) to use it as a bench grinder, though not needed on a table imo
*3 year warranty
*it actually works for this
*did i mention it was cheap?

cons:
*loud as **** so you need to use hearing protection. (use it outdoors)
*throws crap around it, mostly at belt height front and backwards. (use eye protection just in case)
*belt centering seems to vary with the pressure you put on the belt, it can move 5mm outwards for no apparent reason.
*speed decreases if you push down hard
*probably not pro quality/longevity (but good enough for this imo).
*easy to overheat blades if you dont know what you're doing. i did 2-3 second passes then cooled blade in water.
*if you are not comfortable using these machines you can ruin a good blade very very quickly. in less than 1 second.


----------



## M1k3

inferno said:


> Hey guys i bought a new coarse stone, the robotic stone!
> 
> View attachment 61425
> 
> 
> View attachment 61424
> View attachment 61426
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I made a 15n20 blade at work (62-63hrc or so probably, might be higher) that i ground "almost done". i left about 1-1,5mm at the very edge. we have an industrial belt grinder and i didn't wanna ruin the temper since this grinder is high speed, so i left some for the stones. little did i know it would take hours and hours to work that 1,5mm down to an edge on stones...
> 
> every other day i grind for 30 minutes or so alternating between the shappro220 and the diaflat 160. and today i guess i had about 1h left until i can put an edge on this blade.
> 
> But today i used the parkside robotic belt grinder stone. and it did all that 1h stone work work in 3 minutes! yeah
> 
> Well i had been thinking about getting one of these hand held belt grinders for some time now. i think they are made for planks of wood mostly, like rough work. otherwise you use oscillating ones. the cheapest brand names ones start at about 80-90€bux. However these are crap machines most likely. a blue bosch is 250 or so. and a really heavy duty pro one is probably 4-500€.
> 
> a few days ago i saw that Lidl (a food/supermarket chain in europe) had these cheap ass belt grinders. 600w motor. and they didn't look any worse than the cheap brand ones. 40€. i can live with that.
> So today i got one. "parkside" brand. it uses the shortest belts, 457x75mm, so this is definitely the amateur segment. But i found good quality belts for it locally, bosch makes them. 1,5€ each. I got the 80 grit belts. there was also 40/60/120. the 80 grit belt creates a finish similar to a 500 stone.
> 
> so it turns out this machine had some good features that the cheap brand name ones dont have. not even the expensive ones.
> 
> pros:
> *10-20x faster than any stone, without any effort at all.
> *cheap; 40€, belts 15€ for 10. (it came with one 80 grit belt)
> *adjustable belt speed that has a suitable range for knives imo.
> *actually made to work upside down without wobbling or falling over.
> *came with 2 metal special clamps to mount it upside down on a board (up to maybe 50mm thick boards work) to use it as a bench grinder, though not needed on a table imo
> *3 year warranty
> *it actually works for this
> *did i mention it was cheap?
> 
> cons:
> *loud as **** so you need to use hearing protection. (use it outdoors)
> *throws crap around it, mostly at belt height front and backwards. (use eye protection just in case)
> *belt centering seems to vary with the pressure you put on the belt, it can move 5mm outwards for no apparent reason.
> *speed decreases if you push down hard
> *probably not pro quality/longevity (but good enough for this imo).
> *easy to overheat blades if you dont know what you're doing. i did 2-3 second passes then cooled blade in water.
> *if you are not comfortable using these machines you can ruin a good blade very very quickly. in less than 1 second.



I'm jealous! I have a spare bedroom that I've been slowly converting to a workshop. The problem for me and power tools in general is, I live in apartment building, noise concerns.


----------



## inferno

it not _that_ loud. but if you are listening to this machine for like 20 minutes (i wonder why anyone would need that though) then you will get some hearing damage most likely. since in an apartment it gets loud. outdoors not so much.


----------



## inferno

i think all of these machines are just as loud though. earplugs!!


----------



## suntravel

My version of robotic Stone :































works with Chosera disc, Diamaond disc, or copper disk and diamond spray, also good for flattening the underside of natural stones 

With 320 rpm and watercooling no risk of overheating...

Regards

Uwe


----------



## gman

holy mackerel!


----------



## HRC_64

sweet

is that DIY or some kind of OEM setup?


----------



## suntravel

HRC_64 said:


> sweet
> 
> is that DIY or some kind of OEM setup?



Thats DIY, engine and speed control from an old golf caddy 

Regards

Uwe


----------



## M1k3

suntravel said:


> Thats DIY, engine and speed control from an old golf caddy
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



How loud is it? Quiet enough for an apartment?


----------



## suntravel

Yes its not noisy, less than an elektric blender.

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Carl Kotte

suntravel said:


> Yes its not noisy, less than an elektric blender.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



Uwe, I think you just made many boys dream of having one of those diy robots of their own


----------



## M1k3

Carl Kotte said:


> Uwe, I think you just made many boys dream of having one of those diy robots of their own



Who you calling a boy?


----------



## Carl Kotte

M1k3 said:


> Who you calling a boy?



Sorry, didn’t mean to be impolite!


----------



## M1k3

Carl Kotte said:


> Sorry, didn’t mean to be impolite!


Teenager would be more appropriate! (I'm actually 39...)


----------



## inferno

suntravel said:


> My version of robotic Stone :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> works with Chosera disc, Diamaond disc, or copper disk and diamond spray, also good for flattening the underside of natural stones
> 
> With 320 rpm and watercooling no risk of overheating...
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



you definitely win the robotic stone competition!!

...and finally someone that understands what the round naniwas are for. hats off.


----------



## inferno

btw was out grinding away on another blade with the cheapie belt grinder. ground the final 2 mm of a bevel on a 80crv2 blade. took me about 1h. but its better than 5 or 10h at least. i also noticed the belt only last about 15 minutes before they lose bite and dont abrade anything anymore, they still look like new though. these are the bosch belts.

Probably should have gotten trizact or cubitrons but that would probably cost more than the grinder.

these last 3 days i have gotten more done than in the last month because of this grinder.


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## inferno

guys.. what the hell is this?? its a 20/120 stone with some black abrasive. i'm guessing it must be some bad ass **** for this to work at all on 20 grit without crumbling to pieces. listen to the video, this stone has some power. and its 200x400 big! https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/syusei/tairagain/

tairagain. it "tairs" a hole in the time/space continuum creating a wormhole straight into the steel matrix most likely.






also this one seems cool. https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/syusei/d-s/
"diamond brick DS". is it a brick of diamonds or it is something else?


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## suntravel

inferno said:


> btw was out grinding away on another blade with the cheapie belt grinder. ground the final 2 mm of a bevel on a 80crv2 blade. took me about 1h. but its better than 5 or 10h at least. i also noticed the belt only last about 15 minutes before they lose bite and dont abrade anything anymore, they still look like new though. these are the bosch belts.
> 
> Probably should have gotten trizact or cubitrons but that would probably cost more than the grinder.
> 
> these last 3 days i have gotten more done than in the last month because of this grinder.



Well my beltgrinder with all atachments is over 4000€, but i have even spend more for the belts, because on high end PM they last only a minute 

Regards

Uwe


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## M1k3

inferno said:


> guys.. what the hell is this?? its a 20/120 stone with some black abrasive. i'm guessing it must be some bad ass **** for this to work at all on 20 grit without crumbling to pieces. listen to the video, this stone has some power. and its 200x400 big! https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/syusei/tairagain/
> 
> tairagain. it "tairs" a hole in the time/space continuum creating a wormhole straight into the steel matrix most likely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also this one seems cool. https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/syusei/d-s/
> "diamond brick DS". is it a brick of diamonds or it is something else?



I've been eyeing that Tairagain. Maybe @Barclid can chime in on it?


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## inferno

suntravel said:


> Well my beltgrinder with all atachments is over 4000€, but i have even spend more for the belts, because on high end PM they last only a minute
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



so youre saying 15 minutes is actually quite good?


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## suntravel

on 80crv2 15 mins is not good, but depends on belt lenght...

I switched from 1500m to 2000mm an have double the time for usable bite, despite the belt is only 33% longer... 

Regards

Uwe


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## inferno

my belts are 457mm lol. this is on hardened steel.


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## Keith Sinclair

Just ordered a Atoma 400 diamond plate it will get used. Figure will take scratches out from Atoma 140. Cuz of this thread still will pick up a Shapton glass 220. Like said never used a glass be stone yet.


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## JBroida

M1k3 said:


> I've been eyeing that Tairagain. Maybe @Barclid can chime in on it?


its just a large flattening device... taira means flat.. the idea is flat again. The base is a hard rock-like material, and there are coated abrasives on each side in different grits. I use one to flatten my coarse flattening stones.


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## M1k3

JBroida said:


> its just a large flattening device... taira means flat.. the idea is flat again. The base is a hard rock-like material, and there are coated abrasives on each side in different grits. I use one to flatten my coarse flattening stones.



Well I'm sold on buying one! You should stock them


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## inferno

JBroida said:


> its just a large flattening device... taira means flat.. the idea is flat again. The base is a hard rock-like material, and there are coated abrasives on each side in different grits. I use one to flatten my coarse flattening stones.



do you know anything about the diamond brick DS??


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## JBroida

M1k3 said:


> Well I'm sold on buying one! You should stock them


i do... they are just crazy expensive to bring over (even via ship) because of how heavy they are


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## JBroida

inferno said:


> do you know anything about the diamond brick DS??


super coarse black SiC... used often for conditioning larger wheels and whatnot


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## M1k3

JBroida said:


> i do... they are just crazy expensive to bring over (even via ship) because of how heavy they are



Oh lol! I must have just skipped over the "Large Flattening Plate" title.


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## inferno

JBroida said:


> super coarse black SiC... used often for conditioning larger wheels and whatnot


i see. 
is it good for steel you think?

thank you for the info.


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## JBroida

inferno said:


> i see.
> is it good for steel you think?
> 
> thank you for the info.


i dont think i would want to sharpen on it


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## rocketman

Suntravel, Very nice work, and imagination. Where did the large green stone come from??


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## suntravel

rocketman said:


> Suntravel, Very nice work, and imagination. Where did the large green stone come from??



It a 320 Nawiwa Chosera disc.

Regards

Uwe


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## Keith Sinclair

Like those antique large pedal grinding wheels. Bet there are quite a few laying around in different states of disrepair.


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## M1k3

To anyone that's used Shapton Glass and/or Pro, are they both hard stones that need periodic surface refreshing?


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## suntravel

Yes they will, also besause of dishing. They get the best bite lapped with coarse SiC powder on a granite plate.
Lapping with Atoma140 slows them down.

Regards

Uwe


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## kayman67

Glass in general requires more surface maintenance for best possible performance.


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## Keith Sinclair

kayman67 said:


> Glass in general requires more surface maintenance for best possible performance.


What is the surface maintenance for a sharp. Glass stone?


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## M1k3

Keith Sinclair said:


> What is the surface maintenance for a sharp. Glass stone?



Reconditioning. The surface particles "dull" instead of just releasing abrasive. But they do both....so reconditioning gets them back to peek speed.


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## HRC_64

kayman67 said:


> Glass in general requires more surface maintenance for best possible performance.



Is this why shapton GS stone fixer is like $300 or 400 or whatever?


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## kayman67

Yes, it's quite expensive, just like those from Nanohone (that do about the same thing).


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## stringer

M1k3 said:


> Reconditioning. The surface particles "dull" instead of just releasing abrasive. But they do both....so reconditioning gets them back to peek speed.



I just rub mine together as soon as I notice them clogging/glazing with swarf. The 500 on 2k. 2k on 4k. 4k on 8k. 8k on 12k....... The 12k is new. The others I've had for more than a decade. They are still flat enough for me to hone razors on successfully. At work I rub my Shapton pro 1k against my super stone 2k. I notice the most dishing on my Shapton Glass 500 and Shapton Pro 1000. This is where I do most of the work. Everything else is very light pressure. Mostly just focused on burr removal.


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## kayman67

Keith Sinclair said:


> What is the surface maintenance for a sharp. Glass stone?



Anything works to some degree, from different naguras to lapping plates. I don't think I've missed trying something.


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## GoodMagic

Shapton pro 220 works for me. I tend to use belts for serious thinning though, just so much faster.


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## Keith Sinclair

Use shapton pro 2K green for quick touchups. No heavy pressure so hardly no dish at all. One of the most dish resistant stones I have used. Then again been using soakers for many decades.


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## labor of love

Keith Sinclair said:


> Use shapton pro 2K green for quick touchups. No heavy pressure so hardly no dish at all. One of the most dish resistant stones I have used. Then again been using soakers for many decades.


Same, I like this stone but I don’t love it.


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## M1k3

GoodMagic said:


> Shapton pro 220 works for me. I tend to use belts for serious thinning though, just so much faster.



If my "workshop" (2nd bedroom) didn't share a wall with my neighbors room, I'd be all over a belt sander.


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## M1k3

I'm about to pull the trigger on some stones. I'm having a hard time deciding between the Glass and Pro 120. Need some comments on differences between them. Would prefer the slower dishing one also.


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## suntravel

Get the pro one, lasts longer because it is thicker 

Regards

Uwe


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## M1k3

I used the Shapton Kuromaku 120 for the first time today. I've been working on this Chinese monosteel stainless Cleaver I bought off @stringer. I have to say so far, I really like it! At least in comparison to my Naniwa SS 220. It dishes way slower and cuts way faster, obviously it's a lower grit also. It clogged some while thinning, but, if I push really hard (don't need to be The Incredible Hulk here) it'll release some abrasive and unclog.


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## stringer

M1k3 said:


> I used the Shapton Kuromaku 120 for the first time today. I've been working on this Chinese monosteel stainless Cleaver I bought off @stringer. I have to say so far, I really like it! At least in comparison to my Naniwa SS 220. It dishes way slower and cuts way faster, obviously it's a lower grit also. It clogged some while thinning, but, if I push really hard (don't need to be The Incredible Hulk here) it'll release some abrasive and unclog.





Was that a soft stainless one? Those things clog stones like fatbergs in a London sewer.


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## M1k3

stringer said:


> Was that a soft stainless one? Those things clog stones like fatbergs in a London sewer.



Yes, the Wokshop #2 one. It was actually nice it did that though. I just let it clog at the end to lessen the scratches. Grinding out those hollow grind marks, thanks for getting them mostly out


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## inferno

M1k3 said:


> I used the Shapton Kuromaku 120 for the first time today. I've been working on this Chinese monosteel stainless Cleaver I bought off @stringer. I have to say so far, I really like it! At least in comparison to my Naniwa SS 220. It dishes way slower and cuts way faster, obviously it's a lower grit also. It clogged some while thinning, but, if I push really hard (don't need to be The Incredible Hulk here) it'll release some abrasive and unclog.



cool. I'm gonna get a 120 too. or 2 and glue them together.

I also found these 2 stones. and they are cheap and seems to be good enough. 
http://www.baryonyxknife.com/bambest.html
http://www.baryonyxknife.com/baamubest.html

the american mutt stone is made from abrasive that has been dislodged off industrial grinding wheels when dressing them. and they simply collect this and make a cheap stone out of it. its recycled wheels.
supposedly its very good for flattening other stones and also so-so good as a coarse stone. it wants high pressure. its very cheap!

the SiC one seems good too. I'm getting 2 of each i think. too cheap to not try it. i'm a sucker for coarse stones and this is right up my alley.
just look at the black manticore one, you can almost see how bad ass effective it will be just by looking at it


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## kayman67

I know the mutt. Really efective for setting a wide bevel. Not used for anything else unfortunately. Popular with some knife makers


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## M1k3

inferno said:


> cool. I'm gonna get a 120 too. or 2 and glue them together.
> 
> I also found these 2 stones. and they are cheap and seems to be good enough.
> http://www.baryonyxknife.com/bambest.html
> http://www.baryonyxknife.com/baamubest.html
> 
> the american mutt stone is made from abrasive that has been dislodged off industrial grinding wheels when dressing them. and they simply collect this and make a cheap stone out of it. its recycled wheels.
> supposedly its very good for flattening other stones and also so-so good as a coarse stone. it wants high pressure. its very cheap!
> 
> the SiC one seems good too. I'm getting 2 of each i think. too cheap to not try it. i'm a sucker for coarse stones and this is right up my alley.
> just look at the black manticore one, you can almost see how bad ass effective it will be just by looking at it




Shipping is a killer with them, last I checked. That manticore though! 60 grit JIS!


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## M1k3

@inferno 80 grit big stone. https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/The-Grinder-Stone-P1655.aspx


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## inferno

that big sic looks bad ass. but i think its too long to be honest. i'd want something thicker instead of long imo. 

I'm actually quite fond of my shapton 220ies now. that are quite fast. and cheap so i dont care if i have to flatten.


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## inferno

so has anyone gotten any new coarse stones? not talking about 400 stones but really coarse ones. care to review?

i got a wurth 100 grit SiC stone.
it started out ultra aggressive. but that only lasted for maybe a 2-3 minutes. after that it just made a loud noise. nothing really happened.
then i flattened it on my 160 diaflat and then it turned into a 1k stone pretty much.  a ****** one.

but its very good for flattening non SIC stones! i use it on all my regular stones. it just eats them away. much cheaper than diamonds.

----------------------

got a wurth "indiga" c/f one (its a copy of the india stones, but not soaked in oil), and it was good for about 5 minutes. on the C side. then i lent i to a coworker. i want to see how much they manage to F it up.

------------------------------

tried a flat/surface grinder from bosch. wasn't good unless you put cubitron paper on there.

got more paper for my lidl grinder. and that one simply delivers. but you have to use it outdoors. probably 50-100 times faster than any stone.


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## da_mich*

inferno said:


> so has anyone gotten any new coarse stones? not talking about 400 stones but really coarse ones. care to review?



Is FEPA 30 corse enough? I have a ultra corse stone called "Rutscher" in Germany. Normaly its used at a construction site to flatten concrete but you can missuse him for flattening whetstones. It works great and is cheap too.


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## M1k3

Got a Sigma 240 and Cerax 320 coming in to try. The large lapping plate I got has been dealing with the SP120 fine so far, so I haven't really actively looked and tried coarse ones.


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## Michi

M1k3 said:


> Got a Sigma 240 and Cerax 320 coming in to try.


Please post your impressions, I’m curious as to how they compare.


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## M1k3

Will do.


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## SeattleBen

M1k3 said:


> igma 240 and Cerax 320 coming in to try. The large lapping plate I got has been dealing with the SP120 fine so far, so I haven't really actively looked and tried coarse ones.



Large lapping plate from Jon?


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## M1k3

SeattleBen said:


> Large lapping plate from Jon?


Yes, the 7lb monster.


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## SeattleBen

How do you like it? Been eyeing it but it's size.....


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## M1k3

It works great. Pretty fast. Can be quite loud. But I've found that having a rubber mat underneath it helps dampen the sound. If you have the room for it, I'd grab it.


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## Barclid

Cerax 320 is considerably softer than the Sigma PSII 240. Generates a lot of mud. I'm personally of the opinion that you should have separate coarse stones dependent upon the steel you're sharpening. Something like the King 300 is going to be more ideal for soft stainless but will be terrible on highly wear resistant steel. Conversely, something like the Cerax 320 or any other softer stone is going to be much more effective on highly wear resistant steel and will dish comparably slower. If you pair a soft knife with a soft stone you're going to eat through that stone in no time and if you pair a hard stone with a hard knife you're going to be working way harder than necessary. Unless you want the harder stone to use as a flatness reference and/or to see your residual scratches from previous grits, but I wouldn't recommend using them for bulk work.


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## Rangen

Venev coarse diamond stones are wonderful, a pleasure to sharpen on, which is a rare thing to say about a coarse stone.


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## M1k3

Phoenix or Dragon?


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## Rangen

M1k3 said:


> Phoenix or Dragon?



I got the Dragons, though I think the two series are pretty similar. There's an 80/150, but my coarsest is the 100/240.


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## kayman67

They are pretty similar in performance. One is just thicker. I haven't really seen anything important beyond that.


----------

