# An inquisitive cautionary tale



## marc4pt0 (Jan 28, 2016)

I want to start this off by saying this thread is solely intended to get some constructive feedback and to inform others of my unfortunate dealings. Call it an inquisitive cautionary tale if you will. It will most likely spark some negativity, though I hope it will not get out of hand. I do not want this to become a crap show of mud slinging. So please, if posting a comment here, keep it civilized.

*Moderators- please help, if possible to keep this clean. I realize I'm walking a pretty thin line here, but I feel compelled to share this unfortunate experience.

This ordeal started back in October of 2013 as a fairly positive experience. One that highlighted the positive vibe this Forum offers in spades.
I purchased a knife off of BST from a respected member here for a very good price. The member made mention of a flaw it possessed, and the original maker of this knife offered to help right this flaw. So off to the original maker it went. Once he received it he sent me a message with some pictures showing me that the flaw was worse off than he had thought, and that he may not be able to fix it. After some goings back and forth, the maker offered to replace the knife. Free of charge (minus some handle material costs, I believe). This was extremely generous, as I think anyone would agree. So happy me. 

Time had passed, and the original seller and I had reached out a few times to check in on the knife's progress. The maker had told me that it would be finished soon. More time had passed, and the maker apologized for the length of time and told me that he had received the knife blanks, insinuating it would be finished soon. Or at least that's how I read it. This was followed by another message 7 months later saying he had the original gyuto sitting center stage as a reminder to get it started ASAP. This message came almost a year after the original purchase was made. There were other pm's in between this time, I don't feel that some of them show well for the Maker, so I will leave them out.

Fast forward 2 more months- The Maker had posted a knife for sell that I thought looked very nice. In this posting he had mentioned several flaws about this knife and was selling it for a very affordable price. I shot him a pm asking if he'd consider using that knife as the replacement we had been waiting for. The knife didn't sell for almost 2 days and was even discounted more off the original fantastic price. I thought we could work something out here. The Maker got back to me later mentioning it had already sold. Nothing wrong with that, I just thought I'd throw that offer out there.

Fast forward a few more months- We had been keeping in touch from time to time regarding this, and he always apologized for the amount of time it had taken. I always understood and was never upset about it. After all, how could I be? He was still committed to this more than generous offer and for that I was always appreciative. In hindsight, maybe I should have expressed this more often in our correspondence. During our messaging we would wish each other Happy Holidays and such, and I'd inquire as to how he was coming along with his personal/professional struggles. I thought we were getting along well actually.

Then late last year he posted another knife for sell. I bought it as I thought it would be interesting to see his work in stainless steel form, which this knife offered. We messaged back and forth about it after I received the knife, I mentioned how well I thought it performed and that I had some reservations about a specific detail. I mentioned I liked his handle work and I thought this specific knife didn't really offer his full potential. I then offered/inquired about sending him a Carter 240 gyuto along with handle materials to have it re-handled. I asked about pricing and ball park time for turnaround. The Carter doesn't get used too much as I'm currently not really digging the existing handle. There was more than one way to acquire a sample of his work, I thought.
It's around this time that all heck broke loose, which included him "publicly" insulting me in another thread.

Up until now I've referred to this guy as the maker during this recount, just to keep his name somewhat out of it. I know full well that most members here will quickly figure out who I'm referring to, especially after the recent handle dilemma I just mentioned. This is where I fear this thread may go poorly, or simply just disappear as the person I'm speaking about is a highly regarded member here. I realize that by posting this I may be subjecting myself to some negative focus, but I feel very strongly that this ordeal needs to be discussed openly.

After the whole handle dilemma, I reached out to the maker and asked him to simply return the original knife that I had bought over 2 years ago. I figured it would just be easier this way, for the both of us. An easy way to make this all settle a bit softer. He then replied by telling me the original knife was ruined from an experiment he tried in an attempt to fix it, prior to his offering a replacement knife. So now I know why the maker offered a replacement knife in the beginning. I still think it was a generous offer, but he had never mentioned this prior to this message about a month or so ago. 
He then went on to ask me what I had paid for the original knife (2+ yrs ago) and asked if I could provide some proof showing this. I thought this was weird but I fwd him the correspondence between the original seller and I so he could see.

Another month passed by and on Monday I received another email from the maker. In this email he stated that he will no longer be offering the replacement knife that he initially committed to quite some time ago. He then offered me a credit for the price I paid, to be used towards a new knife that must be twice the amount. As of now, I don't think this maker charges $700 for a knife. At least not that I'm aware of? Lastly, he told me that he will need to see formal proof that did I indeed pay for this knife, and it must show the amount I paid. This, he closed, will be his only offer.

Now, to me, this is in its purist form straight downright dirty dishonesty. I also think this can be considered a form of theft. And it's absolutely crazy for this person to think that I would ever consider giving him my hard earned cash again. Technically, that was my knife that he "ruined". Technically, if he refuses to make me the replacement he obligated himself to, he would owe me $350. What's a credit worth with this guy? Nothing as far as I'm concerned. 

Let me rewind to over 2 years ago here. The original seller was very surprised by the maker's photos and comments regarding just how damaged the knife was. The seller had contacted me and apologized, making note that the knife wasn't that bad when he had sent it. At least not that he had thought. And the pictures he had posted on his BST thread didn't look that bad. The seller than offered to mail another knife he had just received to let me toy around with until this fiasco had come to pass. Well, I'm a knife addict so naturally I was quite impressed with this second knife. So the seller and I worked out a deal- he'd sell me the second knife (for an amount that I don't recall) which meant he kept the original $350 plus I would owe him a few more $$. And that's what we did. The other part of the deal was when the maker finished the replacement he would send it to me. If I decided to keep it I would then owe the seller the original asking price. If I decided it wasn't for me, I would simply mail the knife back to the seller and that would be that. Pretty amazing if you ask me. That there is what this forum is all about.

I bring this little factoid up as I think it's pretty relevant to the current status this whole ordeal is in. After reading the maker's last email I decided to bow out. He had gone too far and I simply do not wish to continue dealing with him and his dishonest ways. I informed the seller of this and thought it best that he deal with it, as it is really him that's still out the $350, not I. Yes, I felt somewhat bad pawning off this problem to someone else who has been more than fair during the original transaction. I have to be honest though, I also feel a bit relieved that it's not my $350 that this maker is choosing to screw me out of.

And this brings me to my questions at hand:

What would you, the reader, do in this situation? Had I done something wrong somewhere along this crazy timeline? Is this acceptable behavior from a vendor here and I'm just being a sensitive ninny? 

If this thread is still up, and if anyone has questions, please feel free to hit me up by either posting here or through pm.

Obviously I feel wronged by the maker here. But perhaps there's some outside wisdom that can be shared to put this in a better perspective. One can always hope...

And if all else fails, well, I've made some pretty good friends here. Ones that I've met in person and will continue to keep in touch with.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 28, 2016)

All you can really do Marc is write it off. Maybe work out a deal where you and the seller (not the maker), absorb the loss together. It was neither of your fault, and neither of you deserve it...but at least this way the personal impact for you both is minimized.

I don't know who the maker is, but if this hasn't been resolved by now, it won't be. Let people know where it's applicable, but otherwise lose no sleep over it.

Know what I mean?


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 28, 2016)

I hear ya. And thank you. Think your right, as usual!


----------



## Miho (Jan 28, 2016)

Just let it go. Clearly this whole ordeal has made you unhappy and stressed out. $350 isn't worth the pain.

Cut some deal with the seller since he's doesn't deserve taking the entire hit when he's obviously trying to do the right thing

I remember the thread and didn't you say something like the gyuto you brought has alot of bad mojo and you didn't like having it around. Just sell the knife and move along


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 28, 2016)

I contacted the seller this morning. I think the maker might offer the same "deal" to him, but who knows. 
As for selling the current knife I have, I'm afraid I'd take a bit of a loss on it. Maybe down the road I will. Time will tell. It is a solid cutter though. One that I do like using from time to time.


----------



## TheDispossessed (Jan 28, 2016)

Well, do we want a community or information? Because honestly the two are mutually exclusive a lot of the time here. I don't have the answer.
Best of luck to all involved.
Matteo


----------



## TheDispossessed (Jan 28, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> a lot of the time



A little severe, more like some of the time.


----------



## toddnmd (Jan 28, 2016)

First, it's sad that the situation has come to this. From what I've read in this and other related posts, I don't see a great solution.
I think the solution would be for the maker to honor his offer to replace the knife that either had a fatal flaw from the beginning (which could have been a natural flaw in the wood, not necessarily the maker's fault). But when the extent of the flaw was discovered, and the maker offered to replace the knife, he should follow through with that commitment. I think many here appreciate and respect those who stand behind their work.
Unfortunately, there's no way to compel him to do this, so perhaps it is time to cut and run.
In fairness, I'm sure the maker has other relevant information and perception. It's hard to come up with anything conclusive when only hearing from one side. (I do think you did an admirable job in putting your side out there in what seems to be an objective and factual way, Marc, it's just that there are always two sides to every story. I don't see much potential, though, in having a public response here . . .)
The seller seems to have shown a great deal of good faith, and I don't think he deserves to take the total loss, so maybe you two should share the loss somewhat equally. Which sucks for both of you, but sucking half as much for two people sounds better, to me, than him taking the entire loss.


----------



## toddnmd (Jan 28, 2016)

Okay, crazy idea here, but what about going to "arbitration", if buyer and maker could agree to one (or more) mods hearing both sides and coming to some type of final decision?
I could certainly see why a mod would not want to be put in that position, but perhaps could help to come up with a resolution.


----------



## statusquo (Jan 28, 2016)

Some of the business practices of some custom makers that get tolerated are absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## jklip13 (Jan 28, 2016)

statusquo said:


> Some of the business practices of some custom makers that get tolerated are absolutely ridiculous.



This^


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 28, 2016)

Definitely sorry to read it has come to this. I feel your pain, as four 'vendors' stiffed me on payments or products they owed me over a 2 year period. In one instance other forum members helped me get the product. In another instance, the vendor settled on splitting the loss with me (was not my committment/ loss, though, and this sinlge item was more than the other 3 combined...), In the third I am still waiting on the knife, which was supposedly finished about 6 months ago, and on the fourth the maker insisted he paid me even though neither he nor I had any such records of payment, and I was keeping meticulous records. In fact, my only records are of him indicating he did not have the money at the time, and I told him it could wait until he was on better footing. When I followed up the next year to inquire about a product he was selling through the forum, he indicated he would not apply the owed amount towards it because he needed the money, and also because he thought he had a money order cut for me in US currency earlier that year (he is from outside the US). Yet he had no receipt, etc. and I had no deposits, etc. Let's be frank here, he never sent the damned payment, as I'm not exactly swimming in so many checks and money oreders that i would not have known he sent it. I doubt I more than a half dozen each year outside of salary checks from work...

Others have had better experiences with the smae vendors. In some instances, I have as well. It's just that sometimes it can be a crapshoot... And two of the vendors we part-time and two full-time.


----------



## panda (Jan 28, 2016)

why would you not disclose the maker? the whole purpose of feedback is to let others know. don't be scared that the person is a 'respected member' if someone does you wrong, you have every right to call them out on it publicly.


----------



## Seth (Jan 28, 2016)

jklip13 said:


> This^



This

And I never do business with custom makers here anymore. That is one way to arbitrate. I just got tired of the ********.


----------



## turbochef422 (Jan 28, 2016)

I think writing publicly is the right thing to do. I also feel like some are part time makers but have other jobs and that has to be part of the equation. I have had makers put knife after knife up for sale while I'm still waiting for mine and it totally bummed me out. In this case the maker should make the knife. Right or wrong get some good karma out there and finish your end of the agreement. If not split it with the original seller or come to some type of agreement so either of you don't loose completely. It's a messy situation. Mostly because the original seller was so cool about everything you don't want to totally screw him over.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 28, 2016)

Well over 3 years ago I gave another (separate) knife maker $100 as a deposit for a knife to be made. He kind of fell on hard times as well but promised to come through. Later he even started a thread here showing a detailed work in progress. It was never finished, and he has since disappeared. 

In some respect it is a crapshoot. I've had great dealings with some amazing knife makers here, and I've had some that are not so great. 

Another gentleman quoted me $500 for a custom gyuto almost 3 years ago when I first inquired about his work. His prices have since increased (rightfully so) and today they are almost 3 times what his original quote was. During that time my gyuto was back-burnered on several occasions, many times by my own doing. However, when I finally gave the green light to go, he insisted on keeping with the original $500 quote. 
He didn't have to, and I certainly wasn't asking for it as it wasn't fair to him. But in the end he kept to his word and original commitment. And because of this, along with his extraordinary talent, I respect the heck out of this guy. And the knife I got from him last month was more than worth the wait.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 28, 2016)

panda said:


> why would you not disclose the maker? the whole purpose of feedback is to let others know. don't be scared that the person is a 'respected member' if someone does you wrong, you have every right to call them out on it publicly.



It's not a matter of being scared of the person in question, more so my just wanting this thread to stay "live" as long as possible. 

Plus I figured his name will come up eventually. And if one really wanted to find out it wouldn't be that hard to do.


----------



## Cheeks1989 (Jan 28, 2016)

Marc was that XXXXXXXXX who honored the original quote?


----------



## Cheeks1989 (Jan 28, 2016)

Well some reason I cant post the makers name lets try Canderson.

I undeleted this because Chris is not a registered vendor.


----------



## ecchef (Jan 28, 2016)

In order for this thread to remain open, vendors will not be called out by name unless they (vendors) themselves post and become part of the discussion. Until then, any inquiries regarding the identities of vendors should be through p/ms. Thanks.


----------



## Mute-on (Jan 28, 2016)

From your last comment I think you've seen both ends of the spectrum, as far as custom maker professionalism is concerned. I don't know if that achieves a balance for you, but I'd see it as karma taking care of the equilibrium. 
Major kudos to the maker who honored the $500 quote. A true gent. 
The other maker is just a bum. 

Cheers

J


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 28, 2016)

ecchef said:


> In order for this thread to remain open, vendors will not be called out by name unless they (vendors) themselves post and become part of the discussion. Until then, any inquiries regarding the identities of vendors should be through p/ms. Thanks.



Thank you. I've received a couple pm's inquiring who the maker was. I wasn't too sure if disclosing this info would be ok .


----------



## easy13 (Jan 29, 2016)

statusquo said:


> Some of the business practices of some custom makers that get tolerated are absolutely ridiculous.



I have to agree with that statement and some may quick to shoot me down, but I am sometimes amazed by the horrible business practices displayed when it comes to certain custom knives. Multiple occasions of people taking money for a product and straight out not delivering for extended amounts of time over the promised delivery date, sometimes never. I am not applying this to all makers out there but for the price being charged the service is not up to par by many. I never had interest in the unnamed maker's above knives because I thought they where overpriced for what they were, but how anyone would want to conduct business with him after reading about all this and his responses amazes me. Many people on here have a ball ripping on dude from "the site that no one can name" at any chance possible then let other "businessmen" skate by with far worse practices. I love kitchen knives, I use them all day then come home and read about, I have too many & constantly want many more, but the amateur dealings with and subpar products by certain custom makers has steered my recent purchases towards Japanese Brands from trusted, established businesses, sh*t, I have sub $100 Tadafusas that are better than some customs I purchased for multiple hundreds.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 29, 2016)

easy13 said:


> I subpar products by certain custom makers has steered my recent purchases towards Japanese Brands from trusted, established businesses, sh*t, I have sub $100 Tadafusas that are better than some customs I purchased for multiple hundreds.



That is something I'm a little bit worried about ... It sometimes feels that custom makers here can do no wrong. And while I started with a few select customs now (not received any yet, but so far none over delivery date... None but one, but that's explainable), I do feel a little uneasy about spending so much money on a product I often can only find feedback about in this forum. 

And let's be frank: the majority of times its "amazing cutter", "incredible fit and finish" etc. I can't help but wonder if sometimes a healthy dose of "talking myself into the knife" is involved, because someone spent a lot of money on a custom, he (or she) has a hard time admitting that it's not that amazing of a cutter.

I'm really talking about the product here, not the business practices. I have a very clear view on that. I'm a sucker for honest business practices and REAL customer service, maybe more so because it's seen less and less.

Taking deposits and then not delivering years after the initially agreed upon delivery date is nothing short of theft! And those makers should be called out openly! If it can be proven! 

When talking about "some of the makers on this forum", it's also interesting to me, as there aren't THAT many. I think we all know the maker mentioned by the OP, and I also think we all know the one who insisted on the originally quoted price. 

I think it's important to name those who do offer fantastic service, but I also think those who really wronged customers should be called out at some point. I do realize that this can potentially ruin their business. But you know what? If you don't deliver what you promised and can't/won't put out a top notch product and service, maybe you shouldn't be running a/that business anyway. Maybe I'm too frank, but this is the reality of business in a capitalist society. If I want to donate money I donate it to help children in need. If I want to give away money, I give it to friends and family. If I want to buy a product, it's a business deal. And I expect a specific return! 

Exceptions are always part of the game, of course.


----------



## JDA_NC (Jan 29, 2016)

easy13 said:


> Many people on here have a ball ripping on dude from "the site that no one can name" at any chance possible then let other "businessmen" skate by with far worse practices. I love kitchen knives, I use them all day then come home and read about, I have too many & constantly want many more, but the amateur dealings with and subpar products by certain custom makers has steered my recent purchases towards Japanese Brands from trusted, established businesses, sh*t, I have sub $100 Tadafusas that are better than some customs I purchased for multiple hundreds.



I have mixed feelings. I think knives from custom makers can be a lot of fun & it's enjoyable to see different grinds and steels, sometimes not easily come by otherwise. I also appreciate the effort and craftsmanship. But for bang for your buck? I would always pick proven Japanese makers. They're great knives for a reason.

I've also seen how doing business with custom makers can be frustrating. I've bought a ready made knife from a custom maker and I'm still waiting on it. Four months later. Now I own a knife from that maker, purchased directly, and I love their work and am understanding. I asked for an additional saya and said time wasn't an issue. And it isn't. I'll happily wait. And I get that life can throw you curve balls. But I've gotten multiple messages saying, "It's all done. Knife will ship out (2 days from now)". For months. And that is frustrating.

I want to point out this maker has also given me a wonderful wooden strop, gratis, that I love & use often to this day. So I have nothing but great experiences before. But I completely understand why the whole experience can get tiring...


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 29, 2016)

Mute-on said:


> Major kudos to the maker who honored the $500 quote. A true gent.
> The other maker is just a bum.



I think this is a little harsh. I guess a good indicator would be that if you're asked for more than a token amount just to get on the list, they may be having cash flow issues, which could be a problem down the line. Nothing changes the fact that it's a horrible thing to have happen, and it would seem that the straw which broke the camel's back was the refusal of the maker to honour his promise.

Nobody would intentionally under-deliver, but it can be very difficult to not over-promise until you have the experience to really know your capacity. I mention this as I have found that my dealings with M.S's have been on a completely different level of professionalism. I guess in most cases these guys are smiths who've truly come of age as knife-makers and have learned to manage their time, charge the right amount and understand the importance of customer support.

In one instance I was importing a katana from the US, which is not an easy thing to do in England, and as expected it got hung up at customs. I reached out to the smith, who I'd had no prior dealings with (as the blade was purchased pre-owned), and he spent the next few hours clearing it up with customs. He took it upon himself to get in touch with the customs agency, and explain why the sword was a valid exception to the import bans. I was blown away that he'd do this and obviously intended to pay him for his time, but he wouldn't accept a cent and said that all he wanted was a promise that the sword would be used and taken care of.

I've had this same kind of experience with only one knife-maker who is not a M.S. (I don't yet have any blades from him, but he gave up over 6 hours of his time to speak to me) and I believe this to be the same "true gent" that Marc mentioned.

I do often wonder how a US maker who isn't in the top 1-2% for pricing can make a living at this. Either they must be hobbyists who are subsidising their knife making with another job, or they must be incredibly efficient and operating with very small margins. The small margins would be a cause of concern for me as it does limit the maker's ability to stand behind the product before making a significant loss. I don't know the knife-making business, but it doesn't seem lucrative at the best of times. I'd assume that some are too eager to please and consequently end up with a huge backlog and haven't budgeted time for admin and customer service in the rates they're charging, so something has to give.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 29, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> I'm really talking about the product here, not the business practices. I have a very clear view on that. I'm a sucker for honest business practices and REAL customer service, maybe more so because it's seen less and less.



I'd wager that this is mostly because margins in every sector are being squeezed, as customers become more price conscious businesses have to cut costs to stay competitive; you've got rising staff costs, increasing rent for premises and customers looking to tighten their belt - so something has to give. Customer service costs money and good customer service costs serious money!

In the example I mentioned above involving a sword, the customer service was better than I could ever have imagined, but the blade in question was worth a lot of money and I'd have to assume that the smith has built enough margin into his pricing to allow a few hours per day of customer service and other non-making jobs.



alterwisser said:


> When talking about "some of the makers on this forum", it's also interesting to me, as there aren't THAT many.



This is a good point. There aren't that many and I would worry that bad publicity where the name is not made public could have adverse effects on others, as someone looking in on this wouldn't know who are the assured "safe bets".


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 29, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I'd wager that this is mostly because margins in every sector are being squeezed, as customers become more price conscious businesses have to cut costs to stay competitive; you've got rising staff costs, increasing rent for premises and customers looking to tighten their belt - so something has to give. Customer service costs money and good customer service costs serious money!
> 
> In the example I mentioned above involving a sword, the customer service was better than I could ever have imagined, but the blade in question was worth a lot of money and I'd have to assume that the smith has built enough margin into his pricing to allow a few hours per day of customer service and other non-making jobs.
> 
> ...



I agree. And I might add that I differentiate between outstanding customer service (that easily can make me a loyal customer even if prices are higher) and a minimum of (expected and customary) service. Not replying to inquiries, not delivering paid for or partially paid for products is not acceptable. It's bad business behavior and I'm convinced that this will (and should) ultimately doom the business OR the product is so superior/outstanding/unique that said business (owner) can get away with it...

As a business (owner) I would be careful about that though, the Internet has given Word Of Mouth a lot of firepower that can make or break a business.


----------



## ecchef (Jan 29, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> There aren't that many and I would worry that bad publicity where the name is not made public could have adverse effects on others, as someone looking in on this wouldn't know who are the assured "safe bets".



Who's to say which vendor is an "assured safe bet"? I'm sure there are members here who have had great experiences with makers that have, at one time or another, pissed off a few people. Vendors here are vetted before they are admitted; it's not just 'pay and play'. Good people and businesses occasionally fall on hard times even after many years of stellar performance. Who would have ever guessed that GM would meet its demise the way it did? **** happens and sometimes it doesn't get made right. Is that OK?...no, it's not. But it also doesn't make someone Satan incarnate. 
There is no forum taboo against raising customer service or product quality issues, but if someone wants to 'call out' a KKF vendor by name, do it in their sub-forum. That's one of the reasons its structured that way. I would hope that would be the last course of action after all other resolution methods have failed.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 29, 2016)

ecchef said:


> There is no forum taboo against raising customer service or product quality issues, but if someone wants to 'call out' a KKF vendor by name, do it in their sub-forum. That's one of the reasons its structured that way. I would hope that would be the last course of action after all other resolution methods have failed.



Absolutely. This should be the last move. And I think Marc did that. PM's, emails, texts should always come first. Multiple times. Checking with other forum members (in this case) could/should be part of it as well. But if a pattern shows (I think there is one specific example in the subforums right now, anyone can find it easily) then I also feel it's warranted to point it out more openly. 

The forum - IMHO - should be more about protecting and aiding the members than protecting makers/vendors who have messed up multiple times. I personally rely a lot (maybe only even) on this forum to guide me towards the right choice ... well CHOICES (when does it ever stop being plural?!?!?) ... and I hope that I can get all feedback, positive and negative (or neutral) here, be it in the forum or via PM.


----------



## daveb (Jan 29, 2016)

Well said Dave. Some of the makers would do well to run their business like a business. One of the reasons Haburn and Bloodroot (to name only the first two to come to mind) have built good reputations relatively quickly is doing just that.


----------



## mr drinky (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks for the write up and cautionary tale. I think it is good that people know that dealing with custom makers, artisans, and forum members in general often poses some risk. I've lost deposits, a lot of specialty wood on one unrealized project, an Ealy knife that I loaned out, I never got my Eamon knife, and I have had problems with some very respected vendors on this site that cost me money and stress. With that said, letting go of these instances has been best for me, as the positives still so outweigh the negatives IMO. In one case I lost hundreds of dollars on a project when a person ran into health problems. Another time, long delays just meant I had to wright off ever cashing in on something and plus that person was going through hard times. In Eamon's case, I knew him, respected him, and rooted for him but also appreciate (now) the situation he may have been in with his family and new kids.

Other times, I have been at fault. Will Catchside has followed up on a long-ago paid-for project that I am sure he would like to get off his books, but my crazy taking-care-of-kids-moving-homes life has meant I rarely have time to follow up on it myself. Sorry Will  But for some reason, forum members who don't return lent knives still piss me the fvck off. 

Anyhow, I think your post is a good public service announcement to those making transactions with custom makers and other artisans. Eventually, though, you will get burnt on some projects/transactions in this informal knife economy run through a community forum. It will happen. And just as ecchef said above, even the best, most respected vendors on this sight might eventually have problems. We've already seen this several times, and it will happen again.

So be aware, but I also wouldn't let it scare anyone away from taking some risks for some amazing product. For all the knives I have lent people, only one has gone missing. To stop lending because of that one knife would be crazy and defeat the spirit of this forum. And if I didn't take a risk on some makers in their early days, I would not have some awesome knives. 

Karring


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 29, 2016)

ecchef said:


> Who's to say which vendor is an "assured safe bet"?



Ok, I mis-worded that. 

I was meaning that it seemed to me that if someone didn't know which vendor was being discussed, it could potentially affect other vendors (as they wouldn't know which one to be concerned about). 

It's a small pool, so it should probably be a case of either stating only that it was a knife-maker or giving the name. I don't see the relevance of it being started as a vendor here other than to narrow the possibilities to that small pool.



ecchef said:


> Good people and businesses occasionally fall on hard times even after many years of stellar performance. Who would have ever guessed that GM would meet its demise the way it did? **** happens and sometimes it doesn't get made right. Is that OK?...no, it's not. But it also doesn't make someone Satan incarnate.



That's neither what I said or what I meant to imply, if it came across that way I'm sorry and I didn't realise that I was so inarticulate... I'll have to stop posting from my phone after bed time. I was trying to make the same general point that you are here, and I'd put the problems down to an over-eagerness to please and offering their work unsustainably cheaply in some cases. 

This is what I wrote above the part which you quoted:



MAS4T0 said:


> Nobody would intentionally under-deliver, but it can be very difficult to not over-promise until you have the experience to really know your capacity.
> 
> ...The small margins would be a cause of concern for me as it does limit the maker's ability to stand behind the product before making a significant loss. I'd assume that some are too eager to please and consequently end up with a huge backlog and haven't budgeted time for admin and customer service in the rates they're charging, so something has to give.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 29, 2016)

daveb said:


> Well said Dave. Some of the makers would do well to run their business like a business. One of the reasons Haburn and Bloodroot (to name only the first two to come to mind) have built good reputations relatively quickly is doing just that.



+1 - have not received either knife (both are not coming up for 5-6 and over 25 months respectively), but they do an outstanding job communicating and taking your suggestions...


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 29, 2016)

I've had a pretty overwhelmingly large amount of members here reach out to me via email, text and pm showing support. And it's nice to see as much support here in this thread as well. 

I think it's important for threads like these to exist and remain active, so outside of thanking all those that have posted/reached out, I also want to thank the mods here. Iu understand this isn't easy, and believe me it sucks on this end too. I would much prefer keeping with my usual go-lucky-happy-posts-here-and-there self, but dealings like this need to be addressed. Not just regarding vendors/makers, but also forum members here as well. If Johnny Six Pack sold Tommy Housecoat a knife (or something knife related) through this forum, and failed to be honest about it or simply just didn't deliver in a timely fashion (or at all), Johnny Six Pack needs to be called out. But only if all other means/attempts were made to no avail. 

I just believe that members here need to be aware of dishonest going ons. We're all in this forum together, some more than others, but boil it down its simply another internet pocket full of strangers sharing a common interest. Can it ever be 100% "safe"? Most likely not, but it doesn't hurt to try a bit here and there.

And if anyone is wondering, I was that kid that broke up fights inside/outside of school. If I saw others picking on a kid I had no fear jumping in the middle. Sometimes it went well, sometimes it didn't. But I always jumped in. Those were different times though, when the only thing you brought to a scrap were your words and fists.


----------



## Neens (Jan 29, 2016)

That is a terrible way to do business. I've only dealt with 2 people in the knife world, one retailer and one maker, both have been great. I did have a similar experience in the custom cue world. 8 weeks turned into 16 months and the communication was pretty much nonexistent. But that's why forums like this are important, so other can know what to expect.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 29, 2016)

Just a quick question on the original knife. Was the problem with the handle or perhaps a cracked blade? Just curious because the handle would be a fairly obvious quick fix while a cracked blade would be a different problem altogether.

Sorry to see this turning the way it has...I have personally had nothing but positive experiences with the same maker and you are definitely a highly respected member with tons of experience but sometimes **** happens. Guessing there is going to be another side to the story and to me it would make sense (if I was mad enough to post) to go ahead and post a thread in his subforum just to see if you get some type of response you can/would be happy with to move forward--I think this may be fair to each of you? If you are giving up on anything getting resolved then it still may be the right approach so that others can make a decision for themselves about how to proceed with spending their money. 

As an aside, the only issue I had with work not being done at all (by a different maker) was resolved to my satisfaction after posting in his subforum...it was truly a last resort (and it bothered me to make the post) but maybe it is the way to proceed at this point?


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Jan 29, 2016)

chinacats said:


> I have personally had nothing but positive experiences with the same maker


Likewise for me as well, I also agree that there must be a bit more to the story. Big thanks to ecchef for ensuring that this thread stays civil.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 29, 2016)

I always say there's 3 sides to every story. His, your's and the actual facts. What connects them is a thin piece of string.

I chose not to post in this maker's sub forum for 2 reasons: 1) it still gives him a fair opportunity to resolve it while staying somewhat anonymous and 2) I wasn't sure how long the thread would survive before it was removed.

Back to this maker's side/version of what happened- I 100% agree that he has his side. And I 100% agree that anyone reading "my" side should keep this in mind. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

As far as resolving it goes, I honestly don't know if this is still an option. Another member here, whom I think is good acquaintances (?) with Dave, shot me some texts yesterday offering a possible reason for this maker to rescind his original offer. This maker has publicly spoken about his hardships, and he has discussed them with me in pm a few times. I get it and I had hoped things would get better for him. Never do I "wish bad things" on others, and I'm just not the kind of guy to kick another while they're down. 

In the texts he proposed the possibility that perhaps the maker realized that he could not, in his current state of finances, afford to hold up his initial offering. And perhaps it was just his pride that had prevented him from sorting things out in a better way. He then offered his "in between the lines" reading which boils down to the maker may be too broke to make this knife without at _least_ bringing in enough money to cover time and some expenses. Which may explain why the maker made his "only offer" of crediting the original purchase price of $350 towards one of his new knives.

If this maker would have taken the time to chat with me about this possibility I most certainly would have worked with him on it. In fact I was trying to start this very conversation with him regarding another knife he had sold over a year ago. In all honesty though, I'm quite sure I wasn't super clear when trying to broach this discussion with him, and he didn't give me too much of an opening to chat more. I'm obviously a bit of a wordy guy when it comes to typing, so I'm sure that didn't help either.

Hopefully this maker and the original seller can come to an agreement where they both come out on top. As for him and I? Who knows. I remember him making a comment in another thread several months ago that was started by a member who was displeased about the service he received from an online vendor. He was frustrated about the vendor's lack of communication and response. In the end, the member came around to kind of apologizing for being too aggressive too quickly, and the maker (referred to in my thread) then came on to say "it takes a real man to admit when he's wrong". I couldn't agree more.


----------



## panda (Jan 29, 2016)

how about he makes you two handles instead? that can't take that much time since he does so many..


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 29, 2016)

marc4pt0 said:


> In the texts he proposed the possibility that perhaps the maker realized that he could not, in his current state of finances, afford to hold up his initial offering. And perhaps it was just his pride that had prevented him from sorting things out in a better way. He then offered his "in between the lines" reading which boils down to the maker may be too broke to make this knife without at _least_ bringing in enough money to cover time and some expenses. Which may explain why the maker made his "only offer" of crediting the original purchase price of $350 towards one of his new knives.



It seems like it does all come down to the incredibly low margins that these guys are operating on.

I was recently speaking to a knife-maker to hash out the details for a commission. I was bracing myself for the pricing, when he got back to me with a quote for less than half of what I was expecting; I've never seen any of his work actually come up for sale and presumed it was MUCH more expensive.

I'm always dubious to ask for any kind of recompense from a craftsman, as it's an entirely different ball park to mass produced products. If you buy an item of mass produced jewellery (for example) and there is a defect, they can just give you another one with no problems as in that industry a product sold for $100 will often not cost any more than $20 to produce. 

When dealing with a craftsman though, it is likely that an item sold for the same $100 could represent over $50 in costs and overheads and then the other $50 is to pay a relatively mediocre wage, from which the guy has to support himself. That means that it's a $100 cost price with no profit margin. If he's then required to replace an item for free, he's making a huge loss as he sold you the blade at cost price! That's significantly cheaper than the B2B cost of purchasing goods when you're doing so in bulk and you are taking the hit for defective ones.

This is what I was alluding to in my comment about M.S's. It seems that with few exceptions that they are the only ones who are able to charge enough for a knife that they can actually include a profit margin, which gives them much more freedom to discard a knife which is less than perfect or to offer a free replacement while still being able to pay the bills and put food on the table. But it shouldn't come down to the knife-maker needing to be a martyr and make all the sacrifices, in my view, if you want this kind of customer service you can choose to pay for it in the price of the knife - each failed blade and each defective blade needs to have it's costs covered in the price of the blades which are sold. If you want to pay well in excess of $1k for a completely safe bet, where you're giving the knife maker enough rope to enable him to discard any blades which are less than perfect while still making a living, then you have that option. On the other hand though, if we want to be able to buy US made knives with good F&F for under $500 then we as a community need to be willing to support the makers, otherwise if we want exemplary customer service I wouldn't think that many makers could afford to stay in business if selling their blades for less than $1k (for monosteel).


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 29, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> It seems like it does all come down to the incredibly low margins that these guys are operating on.
> 
> I was recently speaking to a knife-maker to hash out the details for a commission. I was bracing myself for the pricing when he quoted me less than half of what I was expecting; I've never seen any of his work actually come up for sale and presumed it was MUCH more expensive.
> 
> ...



That's an interesting perspective for sure...and an honest/factual one. The trick for makers is to establish themselves thoroughly enough though, and put enough in savings...to be able to take the hit on a lost knife without issues. In the early stages it's likely nearly impossible...but once you're established you could just keep enough in reserve/savings...to cover yourself for the loss of a knife or four. Call it a trust account for yourself. It's your pay day if either you, or someone else screws things up. In this way your name remains intact, and everyone stays happy.

I owned an underground/utility construction company for a number of years. In this industry, the margin is exceedingly small, but...we offered a 2yr warranty on our work. The industry standard had become 1yr (thanks to illegal immigrants flooding the work force and the resultant drop in quality). Due to our hiring practices and standards, we only had to honor that warranty twice. Once during our time in business, and once after we closed our doors. You see, I had kept an account open with the required funds to cover general warranty work, for two years after we closed our doors. The reason for this was so that if I ever decided to start up again, my business contacts would not only remember my warranty, but also remember that I honored it regardless of my personal circumstances. When, a year after we shut down my customer called my cell to ask for redline drawings of our pipe install so he could hire a contractor to do the repair work, and I showed up with a hand picked crew and rental equipment and repaired the damage (which was caused by flooding, not poor quality work), the general contractor was literally stunned. He actually offered me a job as a project superintendent lol.

That is how it should always be. It's just good business I would guess. That said, personal businesses are much more difficult to handle, and I think too many people try to make a career out of a hobby without understanding some of those liabilities. I know one maker who is struggling with the 'personal' business aspects of turning his knifemaking into an actual company, though he has prior experience as a business owner.

The two things are very different, and it can absolutely be difficult.

On the pricing in general...the market will only bear what it will bear . If a maker is already near the top for whatever kind of knives he makes, it wouldn't be fair for him to charge double to one customer who understands the costs involved lol, and then half that for those that don't .


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 29, 2016)

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that it's acceptable to not reply to e-mails from a customer who has paid you a deposit or to go back on your word. 

Rather that we as a community need to be reasonable with our expectations and recognise that "poor" customer service is not a symptom of a personal failure of character, but simply an over-eagerness to please everyone and the market not currently being able to support the prices needed to allow for it. 

I'm sure all vendors would like to devote a significant proportion of their time to speaking to their customers (I know that I love speaking to mine), or to hire a secretary/ book keeper to keep all the admin in check. Unfortunately though it would seem that most guys need to spend all their time actually making knives (or work another job) in order to bring in enough money to support themselves.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 29, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> On the pricing in general...the market will only bear what it will bear . If a maker is already near the top for whatever kind of knives he makes, it wouldn't be fair for him to charge double to one customer who understands the costs involved lol, and then half that for those that don't .



I do completely understand this, but it doesn't change the fact that I feel as though I'm robbing the guy! :bat:


----------



## MontezumaBoy (Jan 29, 2016)

I have been in a couple of similar situations (not knife related) and, in the end, made sure the supplier was compensated to "my" satisfaction - probably very silly to many but I like to sleep well at night and regardless of the beginning of a relationship the steps one takes during it are far more representative on one's character - just my $0.02


MAS4T0 said:


> I do completely understand this, but it doesn't change the fact that I feel as though I'm robbing the guy! :bat:


----------



## larrybard (Jan 29, 2016)

ecchef said:


> In order for this thread to remain open, vendors will not be called out by name unless they (vendors) themselves post and become part of the discussion. Until then, any inquiries regarding the identities of vendors should be through p/ms. Thanks.



Am I correct that this means one shouldn't criticize any vendor by name -- but it's okay to refer to a vendor by name if saying something positive?


----------



## ecchef (Jan 29, 2016)

No, not at all, larrybard. 
Criticism, if constructive, is just as important as praise and won't be restricted to sub-forums. A very personal and specific topic such as we have here is quite a different subject.
One the reasons that the vendor sub-forums were set up was to have a place where issues between vendors and customers/members could be discussed in a more, for lack of a better word, 'contained' arena. There are many instances of vendor issues arising in the general forums, where it degrades into offensive/defensive arguing, people choosing sides, and (worst of all) _comparison with other vendors_. One of the guidelines of the vendor sub-forum is that only _that_ vendors products/services/etc. should be discussed there. 
For what it's worth, the OP of this thread showed remarkable restraint and composure in presenting a very sensitive issue, and the responses have also been objective and tempered. That is why this thread is still open. 
Speaking as a Moderator, it is very time consuming and draining to have to clean up a thread full of innuendo and disparaging commentary. That's why I urged that vendors not be named in this thread. Sorry for not being clear. It's been a tough week at work.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 29, 2016)

Should I have started this thread in the vendor's sub-forum? I wasn't too sure where to stick this, and as I mentioned before, I was hesitant in doing so for a couple reasons. I don't mind if it needs to be moved, though I think it might change the tone here a bit. That may not be an entirely good thing, or I may be wrong.
But if I did start this thread in the wrong location, I do apologize.


----------



## larrybard (Jan 29, 2016)

Seth said:


> . . . . I never do business with custom makers here anymore. That is one way to arbitrate. I just got tired of the ********.



I understand your own decision, but it seems to me to be [mis?]interpreted, broadly, as an implied condemnation of all custom makers. I have admittedly much more limited experience than many, many others on KKF, and as others have already observed some people have had no problems with specific knife makers and other people have had nothing but horrible experiences with the very same knife makers ("YMMV"), but when I think, for example, of what a pleasure it's been to deal with someone like Cris Anderson, and the incredible professionalism and integrity with which he has conducted himself, it troubles me when I read someone saying that they will never do business with any custom makers anymore due to the ******** they have run into with some bad apples. I realize you're probably just describing how you personally have decided to protect yourself against another frustrating experience (or possibly worse -- financial loss), but some readers might read it -- as well as this thread generally -- and conclude that they ought not to patronize most custom knife makers. And I think that would be a shame. Like most dealings in real life, there's always risk, but one tries to at least greatly reduce it with a bit of due diligence and selectivity.

Sorry for ramling on a bit.


----------



## Cheeks1989 (Jan 29, 2016)

larrybard said:


> I understand your own decision, but it seems to me to be [mis?]interpreted, broadly, as an implied condemnation of all custom makers. I have admittedly much more limited experience than many, many others on KKF, and as others have already observed some people have had no problems with specific knife makers and other people have had nothing but horrible experiences with the very same knife makers ("YMMV"), but when I think, for example, of what a pleasure it's been to deal with someone like Cris Anderson, and the incredible professionalism and integrity with which he has conducted himself, it troubles me when I read someone saying that they will never do business with any custom makers anymore due to the ******** they have run into with some bad apples. I realize you're probably just describing how you personally have decided to protect yourself against another frustrating experience (or possibly worse -- financial loss), but some readers might read it -- as well as this thread generally -- and conclude that they ought not to patronize most custom knife makers. And I think that would be a shame. Like most dealings in real life, there's always risk, but one tries to at least greatly reduce it with a bit of due diligence and selectivity.
> 
> Sorry for ramling on a bit.


Nailed it.


----------



## XooMG (Jan 29, 2016)

marc4pt0 said:


> Should I have started this thread in the vendor's sub-forum? I wasn't too sure where to stick this, and as I mentioned before, I was hesitant in doing so for a couple reasons. I don't mind if it needs to be moved, though I think it might change the tone here a bit. That may not be an entirely good thing, or I may be wrong.
> But if I did start this thread in the wrong location, I do apologize.


I think you handled it and posted it appropriately. This is tall grass and it's good to remind folks there are snakes.


----------



## toddnmd (Jan 30, 2016)

larrybard said:


> I understand your own decision, but it seems to me to be [mis?]interpreted, broadly, as an implied condemnation of all custom makers.



I don't see it as a condemnation of all custom makers. It's not clear how many bad experiences this is based on, how much money was involved, whether it was the poster's own experience vs. hearing things from others or some combination, etc. 

Everyone has their own threshold for how much risk is too much. Seth may have hit his limit, but other folks with have different experiences and tolerances for risk. Plus, each transaction will ultimately be decided on individually (even if factoring in personal experience and reported history), so some people might enter in to some type of arrangement with a maker who has an impeccable reputation.

I'm thankful this thread is here, and that there have been many constructive and illustrative responses. It's important information to have out in this community, and everyone should keep in mind there are risks. At this point, I wouldn't go for a custom for a maker who wanted payment up front, or even a significant part, like half. I'd be very careful to see what type of feedback is out there in terms of communication, reliability, timeliness, etc. Also good to be very clear in communications and saving records. In the end, if a buyer has given money and has an issue, I'm not sure how much recourse there generally is. Yes, some public posting might have an impact, but might not.

For the record, in virtually every case where I've heard of problems, I think the maker has entered into the agreement with good and honest intentions. But sometimes the issues of life, whether family, health, business, etc. have become a significant impediment to fulfilling the order.


----------



## spoiledbroth (Jan 30, 2016)

Without condemning anybody I think it's sort of an inherent risk, in buying something made by what are (in the best sense) mom and pop businesses as opposed to buying something from Yoshihiro, Sakai Teriyaki etc.


----------



## chefcomesback (Jan 30, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Without condemning anybody I think it's sort of an inherent risk, in buying something made by what are (in the best sense) mom and pop businesses as opposed to buying something from Yoshihiro, Sakai Teriyaki etc.



Yet I have seen many blades from the well know Japanese makers that looked like they were ground by Ray Charles , thicker behind the edge than a hatchet and not so cheap at $400 with machine finish and cheap ho wood handle . I don't get how this is turning into "why Japanese are more cheaper " subject .
If I had 2.5k to spend on knives I would rather buy a Burke San mai than shig yo kitaeji , just because something is made difficult by the maker for the lack of equipment they can't justify charging more right ??? 
There is a bad customer service and it has been told here , why condemn all custom makers ? Same person also shared a good example of good business practice by another custom maker ( Cris Anderson and him sticking to his quote )


----------



## chiffonodd (Jan 30, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Sakai Teriyaki



lolol :spin chair:


----------



## TurboScooter (Jan 30, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Without condemning anybody I think it's sort of an inherent risk, in buying something made by what are (in the best sense) mom and pop businesses as opposed to buying something from Yoshihiro, *Sakai Teriyaki* etc.



I thought I was in the Cooking With Soy Sauce thread for a second.


----------



## spoiledbroth (Jan 30, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Yet I have seen many blades from the well know Japanese makers that looked like they were ground by Ray Charles , thicker behind the edge than a hatchet and not so cheap at $400 with machine finish and cheap ho wood handle . I don't get how this is turning into "why Japanese are more cheaper " subject .
> If I had 2.5k to spend on knives I would rather buy a Burke San mai than shig yo kitaeji , just because something is made difficult by the maker for the lack of equipment they can't justify charging more right ???
> There is a bad customer service and it has been told here , why condemn all custom makers ? Same person also shared a good example of good business practice by another custom maker ( Cris Anderson and him sticking to his quote )



No! I didn't mean to slag off anybody. My point was more that your average local corner store has a reduced ability to make good on product warranty than a big national department store. I think shig and Kato and such are quite different as most of their knives are purchased through third part vendors who live and die by how returns are handled. My assumption is based primarily on the idea that the big firms have more money in the bank than the average custom maker and can therefore eat the cost of replacing a defective knife without any worry. In an ideal world a maker would put himself in the poorhouse protecting his reputation. However I would rather everyone on this forum were out seven hundred bucks if it meant keeping a craftsman off the streets. I am sorry if it offends people but I believe if you are buying knives in that price range or higher you are either significantly more well off than the craftsman or financially irresponsible.

I also did not mean to imply a dichotomy between Japan and the rest of the world in terms of cutlery. I just mention yoshihiro and Sakai Takayuki as they are big outfits that I believe sell a lot of rebranded knives. They are also fairly ubiquitous brands where "better than shun" cutlery is concerned.

Glad people caught the takayuki joke.

I'm not saying either is better but economy of scale is a legitimate thing. So is the agility of a small (custom) maker. Additionally quality control I believe can work either way, more hands = more error, more eyes = increased capacity to notice said errors. However it's hard to have twenty people all on the same page about what constitutes a "pass" from a qc standpoint.


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 30, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> No! I didn't mean to slag off anybody. My point was more that your average local corner store has a reduced ability to make good on product warranty than a big national department store. I think shig and Kato and such are quite different as most of their knives are purchased through third part vendors who live and die by how returns are handled. My assumption is based primarily on the idea that the big firms have more money in the bank than the average custom maker and can therefore eat the cost of replacing a defective knife without any worry. In an ideal world a maker would put himself in the poorhouse protecting his reputation. However I would rather everyone on this forum were out seven hundred bucks if it meant keeping a craftsman off the streets. I am sorry if it offends people but I believe if you are buying knives in that price range or higher you are either significantly more well off than the craftsman or financially irresponsible.
> 
> I also did not mean to imply a dichotomy between Japan and the rest of the world in terms of cutlery. I just mention yoshihiro and Sakai Takayuki as they are big outfits that I believe sell a lot of rebranded knives. They are also fairly ubiquitous brands where "better than shun" cutlery is concerned.
> 
> ...



I think you are wrong on two spots. Firstly, generally you will find mom and pop stores have the best returns policy as they live and die by their reputation. Big companies couldn't give a rats a$$ if you got one of the 10% below QA levels (though there are always exception).

Secondly, we pay significant money for these knives because they are made by craftsmen and we want the best of quality. Being a craftsmen isn't a cope to say "ohh i don't get much profit from these so deal with it" if that is the case then charge more or did a way to minimise costs or realise that, as Cris said, it is actually a hobby and you need to find another source of income


----------



## spoiledbroth (Jan 30, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I think you are wrong on two spots. Firstly, generally you will find mom and pop stores have the best returns policy as they live and die by their reputation. Big companies couldn't give a rats a$$ if you got one of the 10% below QA levels (though there are always exception).


This is a bit of a red herring, because to be analogous the mom and pop shop would need to be a manufacturer of products, however on a small "craftsman" scale. I have no idea what a margin is on a custom kitchen knife, I suppose it's the kind of work where most of the sale price is actually dictated by the skilled labour of one or a few people. If we take these assumptions to be true I don't think it's a stretch to me that a "bad batch" could literally cripple an enterprise of the described size. In addition, it may only be anecdotal but I have never had any problems returning a product on warranty, nor have I ever heard of such issues with regard to consumer electronics and the like.



malexthekid said:


> Secondly, we pay significant money for these knives because they are made by craftsmen and we want the best of quality. Being a craftsmen isn't a cope to say "ohh i don't get much profit from these so deal with it" if that is the case then charge more or did a way to minimise costs or realise that, as Cris said, it is actually a hobby and you need to find another source of income


I think the reason people purchase custom knives is actually pretty varied. There are people I'm sure who submit foolish designs who need to subsequently be "talked down" by a craftsman, as in the case of a poor idea for a tattoo. What's more quality and performance are highly subjective and relative to the use of the knife, the experience of the user, and I suppose a few other factors. What I'm trying to say is that a great cutter with good f&f to me is probably vastly different to somebody like marc4pt0 who is vastly more skilled and experienced than myself, and has a knife collection the size and quality of which put my own to shame. 

I'm not sure I buy into the "if you're selling records in the lobby it's a hobby" ethos. I don't personally claim to know the financial particulars of anyone in my life, on the internet, my relatives. What I do think is if you're gifted at making something and want to share that with the world, who are we to rain on your parade? Now, if you're going to be dishonest in your dealings, that's another matter entirely.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm glad to see Mert post here, as he is another gentleman in this industry. I hit him up for a knife earlier last year and he quoted me "roughly three months" (if I recall correctly). Our communications were fluid and on point. Once again, this is another situation where you not only gain another great cutting tool, but you also gain another friend. Mert Tansu listened to what I was looking for and interpreted it perfectly. Fast fwd roughly three months or so, I had a new knife. It was almost perfect. Through some use I had noticed 2 small issues: some food sticking and the handle had started to come loose a teeny tiny bit. I was reluctant to reach out to him as I have had a couple sour dealings with other makers, and I didn't want this dealing to be another. The knife, with its 2 small issues, was still an amazing knife and became a heavy user in my day to day. But I finally sacked up and reached out to Mert. His response was spot on. I had told him and showed him pictures of how heavily used his knife was in such a short time, yet still his response was one to be talked about.

In short, here's a knife maker that exudes passion. You almost think he doesn't care about the money, like this is his way to maintain inner peace instead. Mert mentioned he had tried a different glue on his handles and that explained why it had started to feel loose. He said I could keep the knife until he had a replacement ready, but the downside was the profile he made for me wasn't his regular style and it would be hard to match without the current knife present to act as a "stencil". I really liked this profile so I sent it back. Mert even refund the return shipping. He made a new knife and sent it back. 

Mert is absolutely one of a few knife makers here that 100% wants their work to be with you for a lifetime, and I 100% suspect he'll cover that knife the whole time. I say "suspect" as he's never committed to a lifetime warranty, but I just _ feel_ like he's got me covered through our correspondence.

Him and the aforementioned Cris Anderson. Two solid gents among others in the custom knife making world here.

I'd also like to add that I'm concerned some readers here may, after reading this thread, decide to "never" buy a custom knife from our fellow makers here. That would be a sad loss for themselves. We have a lot of talent here, just do your research. Dig in deep and read about other's reactions and interactions with the knife makers. And read each negative comment with a grain of salt, including mine. Make good choices and make a list of questions. Contact makers you're interested in. Start a "relationship" with them, but keep in mind these fine craftsmen are most likely busy and aren't on the hunt for a new besty. By relationship I mean build a foundation of trust where you have asked your questions and received answers you hoped to get. If not, try another maker. Some gents here will only "customize" their work so much, and this may not suit you. Keep in mind, these guys basically have a "recipe" they use. It works for them. If they stray too far from this recipe it may make a knife that won't work for them, and become a potential loss. Maybe not immediately. Maybe in time the knife/handle/material may fail. It's hard to cover a "warranty" on something they were asked to step outside their comfort zone on.


----------



## Seth (Jan 30, 2016)

toddnmd said:


> I don't see it as a condemnation of all custom makers. It's not clear how many bad experiences this is based on, how much money was involved, whether it was the poster's own experience vs. hearing things from others or some combination, etc.
> 
> Everyone has their own threshold for how much risk is too much. Seth may have hit his limit, but other folks with have different experiences and tolerances for risk. Plus, each transaction will ultimately be decided on individually (even if factoring in personal experience and reported history), so some people might enter in to some type of arrangement with a maker who has an impeccable reputation.
> 
> ...



Yes Larry, so let me clarify as I often use a broad strokes out of laziness. I have had several annoying experiences and it is not applicable to all vendors here. So I take it back, uncle, uncle. I am not that interested in putting myself in the position described by some people - just a personal choice. I think that the power of the forum can be to hold vendors to a minimum standard. As we are not naming people most of us will learn the hard way and ymmv, as you say.


----------



## larrybard (Jan 30, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> . . . . I have no idea what a margin is on a custom kitchen knife . . . .



As a purchaser sometimes I feel fortunate -- and, at the same time, a bit guilty -- that some of these talented knife makers aren't also accountants. As with many often underappreciated skilled endeavors (one need go no further than a professional kitchen staff, for examples), a realistic, careful calculation of time spent (and, when also relevant, materials purchased), compared to ultimate sales prices/salaries would likely reveal almost unconscionable compensation. I really don't want to think too long and hard what some of the skilled knife makers with very limited volume wind up making per hour for their efforts.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

I now know what ymmv means. So today I learned something.


----------



## HHH Knives (Jan 30, 2016)

Interesting thread Its good to see some other makers sharing there thoughts on this thread. 

Cris your comments always make me think. and show your respect and maturity, both as a person and a maker.. Mert Is a true artist. and his comments and his work both culinary and as a knife maker show that fully.. Much respect gents.. 

Speaking to the comments of ordering or not ordering a knife from a vendor. This is a choice. and should, like any large purchase.. Not be taken lightly. Buyer and seller should both do there homework.. So in short. I would be doing some research prior to purchase. And if large sums of money and time are involved. Im asking some pointed questions up front both to them and myself about risk/reward. You likely will find that when you order from a artist/craftsman. Be it here or anywhere.. The results more often then not, end in your favor.. Be it that you end up with a very nice cutting tool.. Or even sometimes a knife that is sometimes even more.. Something I dont know exactly how to put into words. without sounding mystical. or crazy.. LMAO! But I think many here know what I mean.. 

Its no secret that the vast majority of the men and women that make handmade knives and other items are Artists. Honorable and hard working, and most are not making alot of money. true.. And money is often NOT the driving force behind the unique creations. Its their "Passion" for the art, craft. Its learning and always trying to improve, the experience. These things mean more to most makers then the monetary side of things. We are doing something me love. Which you cant put a price on.. 

Makes me think for many of you guys. Working Long hours and holidays and weekends. In a industry that doesn't often pay you fair for the amount of commitment and work and passion you put into your foods! But you drive forward with passion and commitment to your craft.. LONG hours of work low pay scale. etc. Yet many of you. Probably most would not give it up. Although you would appreciator a bump in your pay scale.  I say this to use as a parallel about the money. Not to start a new argument. lol Hope my babbling is making sense.. 

I want to thank you guys for both a informative look at these issues addressed in this post. More so, for the civil communications back and forth through this post. It really says alot about the forum and its members. Much respect.

Blessings
Randy


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 30, 2016)

marc4pt0 said:


> I say "suspect" as he's never committed to a lifetime warranty, but I just feel like he's got me covered through our correspondence.



I've taken this somewhat out of context, so I apologise Marc, but this concept of warranty is what is at the core of the views expressed here. It would seem that at least in some cases, knives are sold on a sold as seen basis and the maker can't afford to stand behind them to a major extent in terms of refunds or replacements. Most customers have the expectation that the maker will stand behind the work forever, obviously some will, but it is not a failure on the maker's part if the customer inferred a warranty which was not offered.

I buy Snap-On tools because I know I'll have them forever. If one of the tools did fail me and they refused to replace it, I would probably end up taking it to court. I would also feel cheated if they accused me of misuse and thus refused a refund, as I take the utmost care of my tools.

On the other hand, I know a guy who used a standard socket on an air line and obviously ruined it, it was clearly apparent what he's done and I wouldn't be surprised if he admitted it, but they replaced it anyway as a gesture if good will and just told him not to do it again. That's why you're willing to pay double the going rate for their tools, but also the reason why they need to charge that amount.

If you read between the lines, some resellers have a policy akin to giving a 24 hour insurrection period after which you're on your own, while others effectively give a lifetime warranty. This is why we love some resellers and have a very dim view of others. I'd wager it's the same with knife makers and a lot these issues could be avoided if there were terms of sale which laid it all out. I honestly think that things would be much easier on everyone if T&C's of sale were a vendor requirement.

I can completely understand both sides. On the one hand you've got a customer who paid good money for a knife and is notified a year down the line that there's a problem, it buys it pre-owned and notices a problem. He then contracts the maker, having inferred that there's a warranty...

The maker on the other hand has shipped a knife to a happy customer and a year has passed (with him being unaware of what's happened to the blade during that period). He's then contacted unexpectedly and asked to remedy this issue at his expense! He then has to make the choice between keeping the customer happy or being able to provide for his family that month. It's a loss either way though because it's either his wallet or his reputation which takes the hit.

It's complicated, but a little clarification would go a very long way. The other thing is that it's always a loss for the maker, he either loses his pay day or his reputation, so having clear terms of sale would definitely be in their best interests.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

Surprise! The knifemaker that this thread is about is me, but I'm guessing many of you already knew that. 

I wasnt going to respond to this thread at all because of its Yelp(ish) qualities but then I figured that unlike Yelp I have the opportunity to represent myself, to counter the accusations being presented, and present the truth. As so many of you have already mentioned, "there's two sides to every story".


So I m going to respond to Marcs posts as they come, doing my best to represent the truths as I know them to be.



marc4pt0 said:


> I want to start this off by saying this thread is solely intended to get some constructive feedback and to inform others of my unfortunate dealings. Call it an inquisitive cautionary tale if you will. It will most likely spark some negativity, though I hope it will not get out of hand. I do not want this to become a crap show of mud slinging. So please, if posting a comment here, keep it civilized.



My counter-posts will hopefully also serve to enlist constructive feedback and to inform others of my unfortunate dealings. I will call my post _Another_ inquisitive cautionary tale. I also hope that my posts do not spark negativity. 






marc4pt0 said:


> *Moderators- please help, if possible to keep this clean. I realize I'm walking a pretty thin line here, but I feel compelled to share this unfortunate experience.




Yes I agree, this experience should be shared. As always Im sure that our moderators will keep us honest.







marc4pt0 said:


> This ordeal started back in October of 2013 as a fairly positive experience. One that highlighted the positive vibe this Forum offers in spades.
> I purchased a knife off of BST from a respected member here for a very good price. The member made mention of a flaw it possessed, and the original maker of this knife offered to help right this flaw. So off to the original maker it went. Once he received it he sent me a message with some pictures showing me that the flaw was worse off than he had thought, and that he may not be able to fix it.


 
The date is correct. Marc also has correct that this situation started out embodying what this forum offers in spades, positive experiences. 

Whats missing.
The knife in question is the 4th knife I had ever made (#4 Martell gyuto), a beginner knifemaker's knife. 

The knife came to Marc with a cracked handle, a crack that was actually much worse than the seller knew about, the scales were buckled and pulling away from the tang. What the seller noticed was a small crack on one side near the center pin. 
_*Note - This damage has since been found to have stemmed from unreliable wood being used in the construction, wood that was supplied by the initial customer/owner. 
_
My initial offer was to fix the handle (not replace it) and was based on what information I had at the time the knife was sold to Marc. I also offered to clean up/re-finish/sharpen the blade at the same time. The idea was that I would seal the crack, re-sand/re-finish the handle, clean the blade up and that was all.

I made the above offers to the seller (not Marc  the buyer) to help him sell the knife (as hes a valuable long-time customer) yet these offers were also meant to provide the seller with a better quality product than he bargained for in the deal. Basically I put myself out there to take a loss without anyone asking me to do so, I was under no obligation to make these offers, they were made solely to support these two KKF members.







marc4pt0 said:


> After some goings back and forth, the maker offered to replace the knife. Free of charge (minus some handle material costs, I believe). This was extremely generous, as I think anyone would agree. So happy me.


 
It became clear to me that I should replace the entire handle. I brought up the issue of the wood costs and the seller offered to supply the wood. 

After some further inspection of this beginner blade (I had made) I realized that to fix the handle I would have to address the full tang and need to also mess with the blade (beyond what I offered to previously do) so I made the decision that it might just be easier to made a whole new knife and this is what I offered.

Yes Im sure that Marc was very happy here, he was offered a MAJOR upgrade of what would equate to a $250 gain for him. 








marc4pt0 said:


> Time had passed, and the original seller and I had reached out a few times to check in on the knife's progress. The maker had told me that it would be finished soon. More time had passed, and the maker apologized for the length of time and told me that he had received the knife blanks, insinuating it would be finished soon. Or at least that's how I read it. This was followed by another message 7 months later saying he had the original gyuto sitting center stage as a reminder to get it started ASAP. This message came almost a year after the original purchase was made. There were other pm's in between this time, I don't feel that some of them show well for the Maker, so I will leave them out.
> 
> Fast forward a few more months- We had been keeping in touch from time to time regarding this, and he always apologized for the amount of time it had taken. I always understood and was never upset about it. After all, how could I be? He was still committed to this more than generous offer and for that I was always appreciative. In hindsight, maybe I should have expressed this more often in our correspondence. During our messaging we would wish each other Happy Holidays and such, and I'd inquire as to how he was coming along with his personal/professional struggles. I thought we were getting along well actually.


 
Marc said, I had reached out a few times to check in on the knife's progress 
I would say that Marc reached out more like every two weeks looking for an update. His PMs always had a passive aggressive nature to them, asking questions like "how is the knife coming along" when he knew I hadn't worked on it yet, noting that Im impatient, yet always stating that hes "not rushing me", etc. Frankly speaking, Ive never been hounded this badly, not even close. I realize that some people believe that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but sometimes it also gets left to rust.








marc4pt0 said:


> Then late last year he posted another knife for sell. I bought it as I thought it would be interesting to see his work in stainless steel form, which this knife offered. We messaged back and forth about it after I received the knife, I mentioned how well I thought it performed and that I had some reservations about a specific detail. I mentioned I liked his handle work and I thought this specific knife didn't really offer his full potential. I then offered/inquired about sending him a Carter 240 gyuto along with handle materials to have it re-handled. I asked about pricing and ball park time for turnaround. The Carter doesn't get used too much as I'm currently not really digging the existing handle. There was more than one way to acquire a sample of his work, I thought.
> It's around this time that all heck broke loose, which included him "publicly" insulting me in another thread.


 
This is a complete mis-representation of that situation. Marc purchased a clearly marked 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] quality as is gyuto that he later came to realize that he didnt want based on his personal financial issues and was looking to return said knife and was declined. Marc was upset over this matter.

Yes, Marc was publicly insulted by myself for a passive aggressive post he made. Im not sorry for insulting him, only for taking his bait.

For more details, and a more accurate account of the matter, please see
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-Gyuto-CPM-154?p=379981&viewfull=1#post379981








marc4pt0 said:


> Up until now I've referred to this guy as the maker during this recount, just to keep his name somewhat out of it. I know full well that most members here will quickly figure out who I'm referring to, especially after the recent handle dilemma I just mentioned. This is where I fear this thread may go poorly, or simply just disappear as the person I'm speaking about is a highly regarded member here. I realize that by posting this I may be subjecting myself to some negative focus, but I feel very strongly that this ordeal needs to be discussed openly.


 
Our moderators wont close this thread unless give a reason to. I always hoped that our members would one day come to understand that our moderators do whats right and play no favoritism. It appears that this hasnt yet been realized.

Everyone either knows who Marc is referring to or can request the information through PM. Passive aggressive discussion doesnt help, Marc should have named me or posted in my sub-forum. 








marc4pt0 said:


> After the whole handle dilemma, I reached out to the maker and asked him to simply return the original knife that I had bought over 2 years ago. I figured it would just be easier this way, for the both of us. An easy way to make this all settle a bit softer. He then replied by telling me the original knife was ruined from an experiment he tried in an attempt to fix it, prior to his offering a replacement knife. So now I know why the maker offered a replacement knife in the beginning. I still think it was a generous offer, but he had never mentioned this prior to this message about a month or so ago.


 
This is 99% incorrect.

Marc did request that the #4 Martell gyuto be returned to him without me having done anything to it. This was about 1 month or so ago. 

I replied that I could not indulge as the knife had been ruined from an experiment that I had attempted on the blade. Marc has made the assumption that this experiment is what caused me to make my offer to replace with an entire new knife, but, as I explained above this wasnt the case. This experiment was actually done to see if I could fix this knife and I screwed it up, but, this was done AFTER I moved into my new shop which is over 1.5 yrs from my initial offer of replacing the knife. 

BTW, I was doing this experiment because I was hoping turn a bad situation into a positive and donate the #4 gyuto to someone needy through knifeknerd's pay it back program. That's what I get for trying to do something nice.








marc4pt0 said:


> He then went on to ask me what I had paid for the original knife (2+ yrs ago) and asked if I could provide some proof showing this. I thought this was weird but I fwd him the correspondence between the original seller and I so he could see.
> 
> Another month passed by and on Monday I received another email from the maker. In this email he stated that he will no longer be offering the replacement knife that he initially committed to quite some time ago. He then offered me a credit for the price I paid, to be used towards a new knife that must be twice the amount. As of now, I don't think this maker charges $700 for a knife. At least not that I'm aware of? Lastly, he told me that he will need to see formal proof that did I indeed pay for this knife, and it must show the amount I paid. This, he closed, will be his only offer.
> 
> Now, to me, this is in its purist form straight downright dirty dishonesty. I also think this can be considered a form of theft. And it's absolutely crazy for this person to think that I would ever consider giving him my hard earned cash again. Technically, that was my knife that he "ruined". Technically, if he refuses to make me the replacement he obligated himself to, he would owe me $350. What's a credit worth with this guy? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.


 
Yes I did make this final offer to Marc and yes I also require him to provide proof of what he paid for the knife and I have a good reason for doing so.

Up until just last week I had been dealing with Marc in the assumption that he had bought this knife, that this #4 Martell gyuto was owned by him, and that I owed Marc for any compensation due. I would come to find out that this wasn't at all true.

In one of Marcs emails he mentioned that he settled up with the seller "a long time ago" over this matter and that I should now "deal with him directly". I took his advice and I contacted the seller and found out that Marc was given a replacement knife years ago and that the #4 Martell gyuto was in fact the property of the seller this entire time. Marc had no claim what-so-ever to the new knife he was asking me to make!

Also disclosed from the seller is the fact that Marcs interest in the new to be made Martell knife was that he was given first right of refusal meaning that Marc could buy this new knife (valued at $600) for the sum of $350!

The facts in this matter are now much clearer. Marc was looking to make himself a profit, to take advantage of a _(lucky for him at least)_ situation that he found himself in. This is the crime being committed here, this is the dishonesty he speaks of.








marc4pt0 said:


> Let me rewind to over 2 years ago here. The original seller was very surprised by the maker's photos and comments regarding just how damaged the knife was. The seller had contacted me and apologized, making note that the knife wasn't that bad when he had sent it. At least not that he had thought. And the pictures he had posted on his BST thread didn't look that bad. The seller than offered to mail another knife he had just received to let me toy around with until this fiasco had come to pass. Well, I'm a knife addict so naturally I was quite impressed with this second knife. So the seller and I worked out a deal- he'd sell me the second knife (for an amount that I don't recall) which meant he kept the original $350 plus I would owe him a few more $$. And that's what we did. The other part of the deal was when the maker finished the replacement he would send it to me. If I decided to keep it I would then owe the seller the original asking price. If I decided it wasn't for me, I would simply mail the knife back to the seller and that would be that. Pretty amazing if you ask me.


 
Supporting evidence!









marc4pt0 said:


> I bring this little factoid up as I think it's pretty relevant to the current status this whole ordeal is in. After reading the maker's last email I decided to bow out. He had gone too far and I simply do not wish to continue dealing with him and his dishonest ways. I informed the seller of this and thought it best that he deal with it, as it is really him that's still out the $350, not I. Yes, I felt somewhat bad pawning off this problem to someone else who has been more than fair during the original transaction. I have to be honest though, I also feel a bit relieved that it's not my $350 that this maker is choosing to screw me out of.


 
It should again be noted that Marc placed himself into this situation. He was impatient in his dealings with me, he expected more than what he was due, and was looking to make a profit from myself and the seller. 

This situation between Marc and myself should have never happened as he had no business in this deal once he was compensated for the #4 Martell gyuto. He should have disclosed this information and relieved himself from any further discussion at that point. 

Its simply absurd that Marc finds himself to have been screwed in this matter as hes the only one of the three of us who hasnt taken a loss, he was looking to profit and gain - period.





Some final notes

Since being in contact with the original owner (the seller) of the #4 Martell gyuto there is already a great discussion on righting this mess that we can both live with. This will be fixed. :cool2:

This inquisitive cautionary tale should serve (as was originally planned through Marc's intent) not only the members from getting screwed by knifemakers but to help members realize that other members can screw you as well. Knifemakers should also gleam something from this little tale too, customers arent always right.

To my loyal customers and friends, thank you for our support, and for sticking with me through all these years.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

marc4pt0 said:


> Well over 3 years ago I gave another (separate) knife maker $100 as a deposit for a knife to be made. He kind of fell on hard times as well but promised to come through. Later he even started a thread here showing a detailed work in progress. It was never finished, and he has since disappeared.
> 
> In some respect it is a crapshoot. I've had great dealings with some amazing knife makers here, and I've had some that are not so great.
> 
> ...




I agree that the knifemaker did right by you but IMO he did only what any decent maker would do, what most of us likely do. Sorry but this is what should be expected - not what you think is extraordinary.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

marc4pt0 said:


> Should I have started this thread in the vendor's sub-forum? I wasn't too sure where to stick this, and as I mentioned before, I was hesitant in doing so for a couple reasons. I don't mind if it needs to be moved, though I think it might change the tone here a bit. That may not be an entirely good thing, or I may be wrong.
> But if I did start this thread in the wrong location, I do apologize.




It's too late. This thread is so much more than you and I.


----------



## panda (Jan 30, 2016)

both sides sound like turds now, which is exactly how every he said she said story goes. one person being grimey usually leads to the other dishing it back out of spite and it just becomes one big mess. pass the popcorn! 

where is the #4 blade now? is it physically broken or just cosmetic and could still be used? would be interesting for a passaround.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

panda said:


> both sides sound like turds now, which is exactly how every he said she said story goes. one person being grimey usually leads to the other dishing it back out of spite and it just becomes one big mess. pass the popcorn!



I couldn't agree more.




panda said:


> where is the #4 blade now? is it physically broken or just cosmetic and could still be used? would be interesting for a passaround.



It's in my possession. The blade is too thin in some sections and too thick in others, with an overgrind in the edge. Maybe...maybe, a petty could be made from it but even then I'd think it'd be a waste of time and money to pursue. It sure won't be a gyuto ever again.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 30, 2016)

Thank you Dave for stepping forward and responding to this thread.

I had thought that the lack of T&C's were likely a major contributing factor to the problem and that clearly indicating them would help avoid this kind of issue.

Looking at your sale post, you did do this and it doesn't seem to have helped...

I'm not sure what could have been done differently.




MAS4T0 said:


> If you read between the lines, some resellers have a policy akin to giving a 24 hour inspection period after which you're on your own, while others effectively give a lifetime warranty. This is why we love some resellers and have a very dim view of others. I'd wager it's the same with knife makers and a lot these issues could be avoided if there were terms of sale which laid it all out. I honestly think that things would be much easier on everyone if T&C's of sale were a vendor requirement.
> .


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

Not too sure what to say to this, Dave. I'm glad to see you're posting here though. 

I'll start off by saying that I think accusing me of hitting you up every 2 weeks is pretty aggressive. I also welcome you to (publicly) provide each and every one of my "passive aggressive" pm's I sent you over the years. By my count that would be 52+ pm's. I love to type, but not _that_ much.

As for looking to make a profit from this, well, that's entirely false. You don't need to take my word on this, it simply doesn't matter. What matters is you can't support this statement, so let's keep closer to the facts here.

_ "Also disclosed from the seller is the fact that Marcs interest in the new to be made Martell knife was that he was given first right of refusal meaning that Marc could buy this new knife (valued at $600) for the sum of $350!"_

This is true, as you pointed out I had already mentioned this. The seller offered me this deal and we both kept in touch with you on the aforementioned New Martel you offered. Was it a great deal at the time? Hell yeah. Am I a bad person for for accepting this offer? I certainly didn't think so. Was anybody being sneaky here? Nope. The original seller and I came to and agreement, one that _he_ had offered.

_"The knife came to Marc with a cracked handle, a crack that was actually much worse than the seller knew about, the scales were buckled and pulling away from the tang. What the seller noticed was a small crack on one side near the center pin. 
*Note - This damage has since been found to have stemmed from unreliable wood being used in the construction, wood that was supplied by the initial customer/owner."_

Just to be clear, I never touched or saw this #4 knife outside of the pictures the seller and you provided me.

_"Our moderators wont close this thread unless give a reason to. I always hoped that our members would one day come to understand that our moderators do whats right and play no favoritism. It appears that this hasnt yet been realized.

Everyone either knows who Marc is referring to or can request the information through PM. Passive aggressive discussion doesnt help, Marc should have named me or posted in my sub-forum. "_

I don't consider moderators here as enemies or boogey men. Let's keep this as close to fact as possible. 
And I already admitted that outside of the 2 reasons I posted earlier, I wasn't sure where to post this thread. But I appreciate your efforts in a little character defamation here.
When posting this thread I did have concerns. If I recall, you were a moderator here once, and in fact I believe you _started_ this forum. So I think my concerns were/are founded. 


_"This is 99% incorrect.

Marc did request that the #4 Martell gyuto be returned to him without me having done anything to it. This was about 1 month or so ago. 

I replied that I could not indulge as the knife had been ruined from an experiment that I had attempted on the blade. Marc has made the assumption that this experiment is what caused me to make my offer to replace with an entire new knife, but, as I explained above this wasnt the case. This experiment was actually done to see if I could fix this knife and I screwed it up, but, this was done AFTER I moved into my new shop which is over 1.5 yrs from my initial offer of replacing the knife. 

BTW, I was doing this experiment because I was hoping turn a bad situation into a positive and donate the #4 gyuto to someone needy through knifeknerd's pay it back program. That's what I get for trying to do something nice."_

Below is a copy/paste of the last pm you sent me clearly stating that you had performed your experiment prior to you offering a replacement. I can only go by what you say here. 

"Marc,
I would send that old gyuto to you except that I've ground on it some, doing an experiment to see if *I could fix it for you back some time ago before I committed to replacing it with a better upgraded version*. This didn't work out and in fact made it worse, the edge has a hole in it, it's not fixable."


_"This is a complete mis-representation of that situation. Marc purchased a clearly marked 2nd quality as is gyuto that he later came to realize that he didnt want based on his personal financial issues and was looking to return said knife and was declined. Marc was upset over this matter.

Yes, Marc was publicly insulted by myself for a passive aggressive post he made. Im not sorry for insulting him, only for taking his bait."_

Personal financial issues? Please provide a message or email from me where I stated this. Take a look at my knife collection and tell me where my "financial issue" is. Do I spend a lot on knives? Duh. (Heck I just bought another today) Did I have an issue with my basement flooding? Yup. Did I sell a knife to help off-set the cost of remodeling? Yup. Did I ever _*once*_ say I had financial issues? Never.

Also, please provide an email or pm showing where I asked you for a refund. Better yet, let me provide what exactly it was that I said:

"I used solely your knife today for a multitude of tasks, all of which varied from one way or another. I really like the profile and how the knife performs on many levels. But I gotta ask ya, what's the deal if I can't get past how small the handle is? As of now I'm kind of growing to it and how it makes the knife overall blade heavy (like some others I have). It looks badass, and the knife performs exactly how I had expected. I'm just on the fence with the handle. I've held/used 2 other knives from you at this year's ECG, one being the all black buffalo horn handle you sold last December as a "second". I thought the feel of those were pretty much spot on, especially the handles.
I was really excited about getting this one from you, not only because it's stainless and the performance, but I'm a fan of your handles. Now I'm kind of wrestling with maybe feeling slightly "shorted" with the handle...?

Please don't think I'm sounding any alarm just yet. Like I said, the handle is starting to grow on me and I want to give it a solid chance. I think it's only fair that way.

Let me ask you this as I don't recall the exact details from the ones I handled earlier this year- typically your handles are wider and a bit taller, correct? I ask as I have a Carter that I use from time to time and started using again recently. I'm growing less fond of wa handles, which is why I don't use it so much, and am considering re-handling it. I'm not too sure which way I'm going with it yet. Thinking about maybe even trying my own hand at making a handle, but the time factor is what's stopping me. I actually have the wood, spacer, pins, liners and all, but just don't have the time currently. What's a rough time quote for getting a Martell Western re-handle done? I figure there may be more than one way to get your standard handle, should the current one prove to be not too small..."

There was a message I sent you prior to this mentioning the handle being small-ish, and also mentioning that I had only used it briefly on a carrot and onion, or something like that.
And there was another message I sent you after this, in response to another you had sent me, but I can't find it at the moment. I do recall being pretty pissed and saying something like most vendors offer returns or whatever, but again I never asked for a return. So can we please get past this and get back to the facts?

Again, I'm happy that you decided to take part of this discussion. I think it's smart on your part, and it's certainly good to defend yourself publicly. But I am hoping you can do so by keeping true to the facts. I tried my best to do so, and I expect the same from you.


----------



## mr drinky (Jan 30, 2016)

Oh man, the only thing that would make this worse is a divorce lawyer...and that divorce lawyer was Oivind Dahle.

k.


----------



## Chuckles (Jan 30, 2016)

I will dip in here for a quick second as we enter the dirty laundry portion of the event. I am the 'seller' in this scenario. I have been out of the country the last week and have just recently discovered the thread. I only have a couple of things to add. 

I do think a thread like this can have some value, especially when taken in the abstract. 


The nature of this fiasco is extreme and would test the limits of any vendor/customer relationship. The timeline is long. In the intervening time I have had transactions with both Dave and Marc. I bought a gyuto from Dave and his customer service was exemplary and the turn around was very quick. I also traded knives with Marc and the terms were generous and friendly. 

I am posting this only to point out that while this may indeed be a cautionary tale about how a situation can go from sticky to hairy to ugly it should not be viewed as a complete portrait of the individuals involved. Personally, I would not hesitate to purchase from Dave again and I consider Marc to be a friend. 

That's all.


----------



## Dardeau (Jan 30, 2016)

mr drinky said:


> Oh man, the only thing that would make this worse is a divorce lawyer...and that divorce lawyer was Oivind Dahle.
> 
> k.



I've been avoiding this thread, as it doesn't seem to be headed anywhere good. This joke made all the reading of disagreement worth it. That aside, I only skimmed the thread, but it seems the parties are staying comparatively civil and I hope it stays that way. And as an aside a DM hidden tang western on your Carter would look really good Marc.


----------



## mr drinky (Jan 30, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> I will dip in here for a quick second as we enter the dirty laundry portion of the event. I am the 'seller' in this scenario. I have been out of the country the last week and have just recently discovered the thread. I only have a couple of things to add.
> 
> I do think a thread like this can have some value, especially when taken in the abstract.
> 
> ...



I think this is the best post I have read on this forum in years. 

k.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

^^ I'll second that. Thank you Charlie


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

marc4pt0 said:


> Below is a copy/paste of the last pm you sent me clearly stating that you had performed your experiment prior to you offering a replacement. I can only go by what you say here.
> 
> "Marc,
> I would send that old gyuto to you except that I've ground on it some, doing an experiment to see if *I could fix it for you back some time ago before I committed to replacing it with a better upgraded version. This didn't work out and in fact made it worse, the edge has a hole in it, it's not fixable."
> *





Marc, you should know that copying 'n pasting other member's PM's (Private Messages) has resulted, in the past, in members being banned or having their PM privileges revoked. Just sayin'

As for context, you and I both know the timeline of how things went down but if you don't want to be forthright then there we have it, don't we? 

Come on man, you got busted pulling a fast one, just come clean and let it go already.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> I will dip in here for a quick second as we enter the dirty laundry portion of the event. I am the 'seller' in this scenario. I have been out of the country the last week and have just recently discovered the thread. I only have a couple of things to add.
> 
> I do think a thread like this can have some value, especially when taken in the abstract.
> 
> ...




Thanks Charlie


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 30, 2016)

Dave if i were you i would leave this. And from my point of view Marc has nothing to gain by altering your words.

Whether you did it 18 months ago or 2 days before he asked for the return doesn't change his argument.

Not saying you are lying just that from objective veiwing yours is the least likely and will tarnish your standing unless you have irrefutable proof (which is basically impossible for pms).

Also, again trying to be the least offensive and help you from tarnishing a good image, but in my experience, from professional and personal dealings, the person that attacks a preson's charactet 9 times out of 10 is in the wrong and is using attack as their defence.

Again don't want to cast aspersions but this is how you are coming across which is a total opposite of the impressions i have of you from the few dealings we have had. Always been helpful in responding to questions and pms etc.


----------



## easy13 (Jan 30, 2016)

So, in two years a new (not even hand forged) replacement knife still hasn't been made for whomever it is owed/promised to?


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 30, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> Marc, you should know that copying 'n pasting other member's PM's (Private Messages) has resulted, in the past, in members being banned. Just sayin'


I agree with that in theory, but when it seems to directly contradict what is publically claimed in a dispute it becomes a grey area in my view. "He said" vs "he said" is all fine and dandy, but when actual correspondence is shown that holds a bit more weight.

As I stated in the previous thread about this dispute, I like both of you guys and hope things can be worked out. But Dave, that PM seems to directly contradict something you stated above and used to build your case against Marc. So either 1) you incorrectly remembered the timeline and did not go back through your info fully before posting, 2) you deliberately misstated the timeline, or 3) Marc fabricated that PM. Based on knowing you both over these years of KKF, I don't think it was 2) or 3). I guess if I was in Marc's shoes I would not have held back the PM when it directly countered a claim that he was looking to enrich himself. So 'forum etiquette' means he is supposed to keep quiet when he has direct correspondence that disputes the claims? Tough call there, but I come down on the side of 'it isn't private anymore'


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Dave if i were you i would leave this. And from my point of view Marc has nothing to gain by altering your words.
> 
> Whether you did it 18 months ago or 2 days before he asked for the return doesn't change his argument.
> 
> ...





From Marc's initial post in this thread....



marc4pt0 said:


> Now, to me, this is in its purist form straight downright dirty dishonesty. I also think this can be considered a form of theft. And it's absolutely crazy for this person to think that I would ever consider giving him my hard earned cash again. Technically, that was my knife that he "ruined". Technically, if he refuses to make me the replacement he obligated himself to, he would owe me $350. What's a credit worth with this guy? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.




Who did the attacking on a person's character? I believe that Marc drew first blood in that respect. I countered his assertions with my own, true. 

Thanks for your input though.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

easy13 said:


> So, in two years a new (not even hand forged) replacement knife still hasn't been made for whomever it is owed/promised to?




Yes, that's 100% correct. I suppose you'd like an explanation to make you understand how this can happen?


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> I agree with that in theory, but when it seems to directly contradict what is publically claimed in a dispute it becomes a grey area in my view. "He said" vs "he said" is all fine and dandy, but when actual correspondence is shown that holds a bit more weight.
> 
> As I stated in the previous thread about this dispute, I like both of you guys and hope things can be worked out. But Dave, that PM seems to directly contradict something you stated above and used to build your case against Marc. So either 1) you incorrectly remembered the timeline and did not go back through your info fully before posting, 2) you deliberately misstated the timeline, or 3) Marc fabricated that PM. Based on knowing you both over these years of KKF, I don't think it was 2) or 3). I guess if I was in Marc's shoes I would not have held back the PM when it directly countered a claim that he was looking to enrich himself. So 'forum etiquette' means he is supposed to keep quiet when he has direct correspondence that disputes the claims? Tough call there, but I come down on the side of 'it isn't private anymore'




I'd submit that I never stated that and I was hoping to not have to say that online because the nancys are bound to get wound up over this but the fact is that a PM can easily be, and has been, manipulated.

Even if it is accurate, I'm not of a changed opinion that Marc NEVER told me what he was up to nor does it change the fact that Marc Dixon attempted deceit.


----------



## easy13 (Jan 30, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> Yes, that's 100% correct. I suppose you'd like an explanation to make you understand how this can happen?



Nope, all good


----------



## Andrew (Jan 30, 2016)

Ugh, this is where an otherwise even thread goes off the rails.

It's hard owning a business in this internet age, but rarely does weighing in help... 

If I were in your shoes Dave, I would chock this up to an unfortunate outcome and move on.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2016)

Andrew said:


> Ugh, this is where an otherwise even thread goes off the rails.
> 
> It's hard owning a business in this internet age, but rarely does weighing in help...
> 
> If I were in your shoes Dave, I would chock this up to an unfortunate outcome and move on.




I can't argue, I hope I can do this, I'll try.

Thanks


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> Marc, you should know that copying 'n pasting other member's PM's (Private Messages) has resulted, in the past, in members being banned or having their PM privileges revoked. Just sayin'
> 
> As for context, you and I both know the timeline of how things went down but if you don't want to be forthright then there we have it, don't we?
> 
> Come on man, you got busted pulling a fast one, just come clean and let it go already.



My apologies for copying your pm. I know better and have stated so in the _other_ thread. But in this case I believe your untruthfulness needed to be pointed out. 

I'm not sure how I got "busted" here, but it would seem that _you_ are the one who got busted.

But is that how you really want to handle this? Dishonesty to then just making broad statements like "Come on man, you got busted pulling a fast one, just come clean and let it go already."
and also telling me I can get banned?

I see where you can _think_ a fast one was pulled. And why wouldn't you? It's literally the only "defense" you have to hide behind. Continue with it, please. It makes my point of this thread much easier to hold its own weight.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> From Marc's initial post in this thread....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Technically your name hadn't been mentioned yet, just saying. Sure, it's a bogus technicality, but it's just fun to say. And I still stand by what I said here.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> I can't argue, I hope I can do this, I'll try.
> 
> Thanks



Crap. My apologies. The 2 previous posts were submitted before I saw this. I'm not a fast typer.


----------



## jacko9 (Jan 30, 2016)

Deleting post since I didn't read all other posting.


----------



## mikedtran (Jan 30, 2016)

I have actually followed this thread closely, after reading all of this the one thing I would like to say is:

I really hope at the end of this that Chuckles is made whole/happy with the outcome.

I also realize that I'm sure for all parties involved this has been a taxing/draining experience and really hope this as a whole doesn't scare people from working with custom makers. I have worked with two custom makers to date and both have been amazing. A big part of the custom maker experience in my mind is learning from the custom maker (for myself at least) and I have to say that it has accelerated my understanding of knife geometry/performance significantly.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 30, 2016)

TLDR, what Mikedtran just said...Chuckles is the only one that has been hurt here and it appears as though he is being taken care of...everything else doesn't matter.

Marc and Dave, this is going nowhere (coming from someone not involved who usually doesn't know when to let it rest...).


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

^^Me and my cigarette break concur


----------



## jacko9 (Jan 30, 2016)

"The End" - very good read for a Saturday evening. As a retired custom furniture maker I was deeply engrossed in this thread.


----------



## ecchef (Jan 30, 2016)

You guys have restored my faith in humanity. :biggrin:


----------



## JohnnyChance (Jan 31, 2016)

mr drinky said:


> Oh man, the only thing that would make this worse is a divorce lawyer...and that divorce lawyer was Oivind Dahle.
> 
> k.



This is some fcking KF/KKF OG humor for you kids.


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 31, 2016)

So I'd like to apologize for what was certainly inevitable here. I think most knew that once the maker started posting sparks were bound to fly. Hopefully that has calmed a bit now.

I still stand behind the original intent(s) of this thread and I believe its served this particular purpose, and _then_ some. I also believe this became a good thread for several members here. It's certainly highlighted a few good vendors and hopefully educated some members on how to go about selecting a custom made knife.

I'd also like to add that I absolutely had nothing to "gain" by starting this thread, but I did feel like there was a potential to lose (something greater). I had no expectations or hopes of the maker offering anything more (to me). In fact the the sole expectation I had of the maker was met, _exceedingly_. Do I regret creating this thread? No. It opened several doors for others, and as a result I've made several new acquaintances.

That said, I would like this thread to not "die" on false conjectures and dishonest dance-arounds. It would be a disservice to what had already been offered prior to the sparks.
The more I think about it, the more I believe this thread was started in the right location. If it had been created in the maker's sub-forum I think that would have cast a grey cloud over it that many members wouldn't want to touch, let alone post their comments. 

I'm not really sure how to tie this into a closing statement so I'll just carry on with with my next post:


----------



## marc4pt0 (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm also pleased to see Randy of HHH post in here as well! Now here's another vendor/knife maker that stands with class. Him and his son practically stand on their own platform with the work they put out. 

I'll admit up front that I'm a little biased here as I did win a free gytuo that was offered by Randy several years ago. The drawing was done the same day my daughter (1st child) was born. So this gytuo holds a special value to me, as well as its maker.

It's important that I explain how I received the above mentioned knife, also known as the Tuxedo Gyuto. This knife gets used by me from time to time but I intend on passing this one down to my daughter once she's able to actually use it. In other words, this will be a heritage knife that I hope will last a lifetime.

While using it one day I noticed an ever tiny gap between the ivory scale and the tang. Again I was hesitant to bring this up with Randy, but once I did I was once again more than pleased with the reply. Now here's a unique situation where the maker has already gained nothing financially on this piece. So there's no built in buffer to "cover a warranty". Yet, once I brought this to Randy's attention his response was to send it back immediately. Even though this knife was essentially just _given_ to me, Randy still stands behind it. I don't know what this kind of repair/fix will entail, but Randy has expressed concern that I return it asap to get fixed.

*Randy, my apologies for dragging my feet on returning it. I just got back from a mini vacation Thursday. I will have it in the mail this Monday!

This is the kind of service that I personally want from knife makers, and in general, when spending this kind of money. I express this so others who are considering a custom knife might want to include this as part of their inquiry with vendors here or elsewhere.
For the most part I believe vendors here are solid and will back their work/product as much as possible. I certainly don't expect a free repair if I jack the knife up or snap the tip off, and I don't expect a free thinning (though I have received this service from a few which was _more_ than nice). I do expect a defect or something somewhat beyond my control to be covered. We have many talented makers/vendors here, but even they can make a small mistake from time to time. It's human. And sometimes material might "age" differently than expected, which is completely out of their control, and mine. It's how they handle these instances, and follow through for that matter, that separates the good from the untrustworthy.

Randy, my hat's off to ya. Thank you for being one of the good guys!!


----------



## DeepCSweede (Jan 31, 2016)

I think the original intent of "the cautionary tale" holds extreme validity as I think a lot of the newer members may think that ordering a custom or even just a knife from a member is as simple as putting in an order and the knife will appear in a few weeks. That has not been my experience so far. Even ordering what a maker considers a ready made knife can be a PITA. Most knives I have ordered have been delayed by months or even years with little to no communication from the vendor. That can be extremely frustrating. I stayed out of the Eamon debacle and am infinitely glad I did because to see how Eamon treated that situation was really sad. However that situation really righted itself by the determination of Danny "Zwiefel" who took a really bad situation and showed the heart of some awesome vendors who wrapped up the project without being compensated for it. 

While this situation leaves a bad taste in both parties mouths, I think it is a good lesson that we are all human and each of us has our own perception of how events transpire and that transactions can and may take a turn for the worst. I personally don't make any judgement against either party at this point, I hope a resolution can be made and you guys can move on. 

There are some great makers here just be patient with the process.


----------



## AllanP (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm sorry but I'm rather disappointed at a lot of comments about problems with custom makers. It seems like the practice of weeks turning into months, turning into years happens way more than it should. I think the expectations are so low around these parts that people don't even expect anything to be handled in a timely or professional manner anymore and just sees it as part of the process. I think I can understand the pain of individual knife makers and their hardships of running a business. But then again we live in a real world where vendors should have some accountability about people's hard earned money.

I read the forum, all I hear is praise about custom maker knives being the buzz and how great of cutters they are. Maybe there should be more reviews on customer services and basic business practices so people have a realistic expectation of what they are putting their money into.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 31, 2016)

AllanP said:


> I'm sorry but I'm rather disappointed at a lot of comments about problems with custom makers. It seems like the practice of weeks turning into months, turning into years happens way more than it should. I think the expectations are so low around these parts that people don't even expect anything to be handled in a timely or professional manner anymore and just sees it as part of the process. I think I can understand the pain of individual knife makers and their hardships of running a business. But then again we live in a real world where vendors should have some accountability about people's hard earned money.
> 
> I read the forum, all I hear is praise about custom maker knives being the buzz and how great of cutters they are. Maybe there should be more reviews on customer services and basic business practices so people have a realistic expectation of what they are putting their money into.



I think your suggestion holds a lot of merit.

On your first comments though, as someone who is intimately acquainted with that process...I feel the need to explain a few things. I have a number of friends who are bladesmiths. Most of them have extensive wait lists. When asked 'how long', they are often expected to give a date down to the week, at minimum. In general they are requested to give a ball park guess as to when the customer might be up on the list. Sometimes this is doable, but most often...being as how each individual knife is its own creation, with its own issues and possible problems...it isn't even close to possible. The best thing that can be given is a guess. Even once a specific customer's project starts, sometimes things go awry and it gets drawn out. This IS part of the nature of things, and if a person isn't prepared for that they should probably buy a pre-made knife from one of the excellent resellers, or even a pre-made from one of the custom vendors. This comment is not meant to be disparaging in any way! It's just a fact. In addition, most guys doing this full time did it partially (if not mostly) for the freedom of expression inherent in the process, and a patient customer will almost ALWAYS get that maker's best work. A pushy customer who is expecting a 5 day 9am deadline to be met on the dot (sarcasm there lol), is probably not going to get that kind of return. Not because the maker doesn't want to provide it, but because he's no longer free to 'follow the muse' so to speak. A part time maker will almost invariably have a main job and family time to contend with, and will more often be even more erratic in their management of time...and understandably so.

Now, understand that those are somewhat extreme examples, and most makers have things in hand enough to have something more than zero control over the process. That said, the same issues (and dozens more I'm not going into) apply. Understand also, this is NOT an excuse for poor communication. If a maker is a poor communicator, he should be selling through an intermediary, rather than direct to customers. In my opinion, when one pays $600-$1500 or more for a gyuto...one is buying a large chunk of a maker's time with it. Possibly not as much as some makers provide, but certainly more than I hear many makers are giving.

So in the end, I do tend to agree with you across the board, with a few caveats as far as time frame expectations go .


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 31, 2016)

Oh, also...deposits almost completely negate many of the things I've said. Once you take a deposit you are ABSOLUTELY beholden to a customer in regards to both communication and a more accurate level of scheduling. This is the nature of service once you have taken someone's money.


----------



## stevenStefano (Jan 31, 2016)

I thin if there's one thing to learn from this thread for people who have never ordered a custom before, is that they take time and it's easy for weeks to turn into months and months, years


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 31, 2016)

stevenStefano said:


> I thin if there's one thing to learn from this thread for people who have never ordered a custom before, is that they take time and it's easy for weeks to turn into months and months, years



I think 'easy' would be a very large exaggeration.

Think about it like this. How many people on this forum have custom knives? How many have spoken up saying they had issues? A number in this post, yes...but, that's what the post is about (sort of), so that's the kind of responses it will draw. I can promise you that the percentage of those who have issues as compared to those who have a good experience, is very small indeed...for most all custom knife orders. There MAY be vendor specific exceptions, but I'm not aware of these and so cannot comment there.


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 31, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Oh, also...deposits almost completely negate many of the things I've said. Once you take a deposit you are ABSOLUTELY beholden to a customer in regards to both communication and a more accurate level of scheduling. This is the nature of service once you have taken someone's money.



I totally agree with this and why i would be very reluctant to get a custom knife from someone with a 6+ month wait time that wants an upfront deposit. Too much can change in that time period.


----------



## chefcomesback (Jan 31, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I totally agree with this and why i would be very reluctant to get a custom knife from someone with a 6+ month wait time that wants an upfront deposit. Too much can change in that time period.



If someone asks for a full payment or half of it upfront I would be vary however most makers with the common business practice will ask minimal deposits upfront (10-20) percent . This is to determine serious buyers , as you can Imagine 40-50 will inquire, 30 will say they will deposit something to be on the list and 15-20 will actually deposit to be on the list . From makers point if they allocate time for all the quotes their timeline won't be realistic and at the end they also need to plan how many they are going to make , if they make a specific knife for someone and there is nothing to hold the buyer against like deposit the maker will be stuck with something fully custom that they may not be able to sell .


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 31, 2016)

stevenStefano said:


> I thin if there's one thing to learn from this thread for people who have never ordered a custom before, is that they take time.



I agree that this is a very important lesson, if you have tight time constraints you would probably be best advised to avoid commissions and buy ready made.

In some other fields it's not uncommon for finished work to sell for double the cost of commissioning it. I didn't understand this until I found myself 5 years into a project which is still not close to completion.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 31, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> If someone asks for a full payment or half of it upfront I would be vary however most makers with the common business practice will ask minimal deposits upfront (10-20) percent . This is to determine serious buyers , as you can Imagine 40-50 will inquire, 30 will say they will deposit something to be on the list and 15-20 will actually deposit to be on the list . From makers point if they allocate time for all the quotes their timeline won't be realistic and at the end they also need to plan how many they are going to make , if they make a specific knife for someone and there is nothing to hold the buyer against like deposit the maker will be stuck with something fully custom that they may not be able to sell .



I completely understand this Mert! But...I would assume a custom maker would communicate with a customer before he began making the guy his knife . At that time a small (say 20%) surety deposit is completely reasonable. But a deposit just to get on the list is sort of silly. One maker I know accepts everyone and anyone who wants to give a name, address, phone, and email. If the person doesn't respond within a day of attempted communication, they get bumped back one slot. If they don't respond by the time the knife for the next person is finished, they get pushed to the end of the line and lose any price breaks they got with their initial order (meaning if prices were raised since). If they come back around AGAIN with no communication, they are simply relegated to a 'dead' file on the list and remain there until they choose to communicate again themselves. Nowhere in this process is a deposit necessary, or even wanted...as it poses an obligation to the maker as well. 

The only drawback to this is as you said...their timeline _may not_ be realistic. BUT...if anything it makes customers who are behind them on the list a bit happier .


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 31, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> If someone asks for a full payment or half of it upfront I would be vary however most makers with the common business practice will ask minimal deposits upfront (10-20) percent . This is to determine serious buyers , as you can Imagine 40-50 will inquire, 30 will say they will deposit something to be on the list and 15-20 will actually deposit to be on the list . From makers point if they allocate time for all the quotes their timeline won't be realistic and at the end they also need to plan how many they are going to make , if they make a specific knife for someone and there is nothing to hold the buyer against like deposit the maker will be stuck with something fully custom that they may not be able to sell .



Totally agree Mert but from my point of view i would only be willing to do that with a maker that i have a repore with and trust, like yourself. And i also have no qualms with paying for materials upfront before you start work.

It really is on a case by case basis but my primary stance is one of reluctance for a deposit until close to work is starting.


----------



## chefcomesback (Jan 31, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Totally agree Mert but from my point of view i would only be willing to do that with a maker that i have a repore with and trust, like yourself. And i also have no qualms with paying for materials upfront before you start work.
> 
> It really is on a case by case basis but my primary stance is one of reluctance for a deposit until close to work is starting.



Definetely understand your point too Alex , I had couple instances where I purchased the handle materials and got stuck , if it is a regular items not so bad but for odd lengths and profiles the maker will get stuck with it .
120mm petty with mammoth tooth handle is lot difficult to sell if the person changes their mind vs 240 western or wa gyuto


----------



## jacko9 (Jan 31, 2016)

I understand the deposit consideration - for me as a custom furniture maker the material cost when I first got started was about 50% of the total cost and if the buyer backed out it was a huge hit for me. I got to the point that I would only take commissions from (mutually) trusted customers and it worked for my business.

Last year I purchased a knife from Teruyasu Fujiwara online (and with limited language barriers) I upgraded to the upgraded ebony handle and paid the full amount with paypal. There was a delay because of the scarcity of ebony but, I received my knife 6 weeks later (he sent me an email telling me of the delay).


----------



## ecchef (Feb 1, 2016)

Ok guys, last call. Please end this on a positive note. Thanks.


----------



## JohnnyChance (Feb 1, 2016)

Sorry y'all, this was supposed to have been closed but got moved/deleted instead. It's back though (as you can see).


----------

