# Japanese honorifics



## hmansion (Mar 10, 2018)

I don't speak any Japanese and only recently became aware of Japanese honorifics (i.e. -san). I'm curious to hear if you use an honorific when dealing with Japanese makers and vendors, especially after having conducted repeat business with one. Google-ing the customary use of honorifics in Japanese was educational, but the noted pros and cons still seem to leave the matter unclear. For example, an obvious "pro" is to show respect for their knowledge and artisanship. Another is to show some cultural awareness, again out of respect. "Cons" included not recognizing the other's possible attempts at internationalization and understanding of (say) English customs, or even just sounding pretentious.

Thoughts?


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## TurboScooter (Mar 10, 2018)

To me, if you don't speak Japanese and you're having a conversation in English (or more broadly, and perhaps more accurately, not in Japanese) it seems weird because it's not part of the English language.

But there's also an area where it seems not quite necessary yet not at all weird and quite understandable when someone at least fairly fluent in Japanese but speaking in English does it - an overlapping of the cultures and languages where the fluency and understanding of it in Japanese makes you uncomfortable to not do it even if speaking in English. IME, it also happens in reverse where people will drop the honorific (yobisute) in both Japanese and English depending on the relationship between the speakers.

However, the worse you are at Japanese, the more leeway you have. Do it or don't do it - if you're clearly not fluent there's pretty much no expectation of you anyway so it doesn't really matter. The Japanese are generally super complimentary about any attempt at speaking Japanese.

On the other hand, at some point it can flip; the more fluency in the language you demonstrate, the higher the expectation that you understand the culture and the little nuances of it. There are times when that is not going to be the case.

There are also more levels of politeness in Japanese that goes way beyond just suffixes on names where the speech/words demonstrate levels of politeness (keigo).


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## hmansion (Mar 10, 2018)

TurboScooter said:


> ...However, the worse you are at Japanese, the more leeway you have. Do it or don't do it - if you're clearly not fluent there's pretty much no expectation of you anyway so it doesn't really matter...



A very helpful post, especially this part. I've never talked with a maker or vendor (only written), but I'm gathering that in correspondence there's no harm in using -san if one decides to do so.


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## JDA_NC (Mar 10, 2018)

hmansion said:


> A very helpful post, especially this part. I've never talked with a maker or vendor (only written), but I'm gathering that in correspondence there's no harm in using -san if one decides to do so.



That's my line of thinking but I'm also interested in hearing thoughts from others with more experience in Japan/with the Japanese language.

I think of it kind of like in Spanish - I've always used the terms don/doña regularly when talking to more established and/or elderly co-workers even though I'm not a native or even fluent speaker. I took my cues from others originally but now it's something I do without thinking about. I feel like most enjoy (sincere) politeness/respect. Now to be calling someone abuela/obaasan is probably a different matter....


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## toddnmd (Mar 11, 2018)

I've found that most people are appreciative at attempts to speak their language, even if it's just a couple words. I'd think this would be particularly true with words that show respect--it's a nice gesture. Most of the time, even if you make a mistake, the intent is understood and valued. 
I also think it's quite common for people to mix languages in situations like you described. Last week I was part of an email discussion with Americans and Japanese. It was pretty much in English, with the addition of -San on last names.
As Turbo mentioned above, I've heard that it is part of the culture to praise people for their skills, particularly in attempts to use language, so that a person might hear, "You speak Japanese so well!" even if they haven't said all that much.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 11, 2018)

Has an equivalent never been part of the english language, or just fallen out of usage?

...


Nonwithstanding all the cultural fascination, I'd probably have a horrible life in Japan - if I understand right, a japanese saying something he is not supposed to say at his social rank will be ashamed of his words (and consider taking a sword to himself  )- I'm more the ultra western type that will be ashamed of his rank (and consider taking a sword to whoever holds the rank privileged to say what was said  )!


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## hmansion (Mar 12, 2018)

JDA_NC said:


> ...I took my cues from others.. I feel like most enjoy (sincere) politeness/respect.



Yes, cues from others would be very helpful and that's essentially what I hope to understand better, given that I (and many of us here) operate in a 1-on-1 vacuum when dealing with a Japanese maker or vendor.



toddnmd said:


> I've found that most people are appreciative at attempts to speak their language, even if it's just a couple words. I'd think this would be particularly true with words that show respect--it's a nice gesture. Most of the time, even if you make a mistake, the intent is understood and valued...



So again, it seems that any sincere attempt by a non-speaker would likely be met with appreciation and some tolerance if honorific usage/context weren't exactly "correct", which makes sense.

For the record, I specifically have dealt with Koki (JCK) and Shinichi (Watanabe) a few times over the years and it is with these two, awesome gentleman that I want to appropriately show my appreciation with.

_(Pardon my selective quotes)_


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## hmansion (Mar 12, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Has an equivalent never been part of the english language, or just fallen out of usage?



I think it's common to use "Sir" or "Ma'am" when dealing with someone in authority or with acknowledged seniority/experience/age. Of course, I was raised in the South where this is certainly common anyway.

When visiting with my wife's grandmother, I frequently use "Yes, ma'am" and "No, ma'am". And I haven't gotten a ticket in decades, but you can bet I said "Yes, sir!" and "No, sir!" to the officer who pulled me over


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## Jovidah (Mar 12, 2018)

For Koki it's very easy to show your appreciation without any fancy culturally sensitive lingo. Just buy more knives.


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## hmansion (Mar 12, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> For Koki it's very easy to show your appreciation without any fancy culturally sensitive lingo. Just buy more knives.



Goes for Shinichi, too!:lol2:


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## Jovidah (Mar 12, 2018)

hmansion said:


> Goes for Shinichi, too!:lol2:



True...but I can imagine the lack of variety becoming a bit boring at some point. Not to mention hard to justify to the wife... Then again, they never see that problem when it comes to shoes.


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## hmansion (Mar 12, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> True...but I can imagine the lack of variety becoming a bit boring at some point. Not to mention hard to justify to the wife... Then again, they never see that problem when it comes to shoes.



She stays out of my kitchen. I stay out of her closet. We have an unspoken understanding that its best to remain blissfully unaware of certain purchases :wink:


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## TurboScooter (Mar 13, 2018)

hmansion said:


> Yes, cues from others would be very helpful and that's essentially what I hope to understand better, given that I (and many of us here) operate in a 1-on-1 vacuum when dealing with a Japanese maker or vendor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe I'm misreading this, but I think the term "honorific" is misleading you a bit.

Adding -san to someone's name is a base level of politeness in Japanese. In Japanese, to call someone by name without a suffix is called "yobisute" and in the vast majority of situations is rude, or at the very least, crude. There's the suffix -sama, which shows respect/reverence, but I think that actually does come off as strange in this situation. In a sense, it's backwards if you use it.

In Japanese you would be the "okyakusama" if you went into a store. "Kyaku" by itself is the word for customer, "sama" is from the -sama suffix placing you in the higher position in the social hierarchy of this interaction, and prefixing "o" is another layer of politeness to a word. As the customer you would use what is base level polite Japanese (teineigo), but they (shopkeeper/service staff) would use the higher level of respectful and humble language back to you (sonkeigo/kenjougo).

In terms of addressing someone, you would generally use their last name, not first name (depends on the relationship, of course), so Koki would be Iwahara-san, not Koki-san. But again, not being fluent means that most likely no one will hold anything against you for small things like that.

It's not really a 1:1 comparison, but think of it in reverse - how much would it really matter to you if someone who didn't speak or barely spoke English called you either Mr. First Name, Mr. Last Name, or just First Name? How odd would it sound to you if they called you Your Excellency or Lord or something along those lines?


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## hmansion (Mar 13, 2018)

I really appreciate your comprehensive thoughts on this, TurboScooter!



TurboScooter said:


> Maybe I'm misreading this, but I think the term "honorific" is misleading you a bit.



I didn't phrase it well when I said "to appropriately show my appreciation with" so I understand your perception. I think I was originally under the impression that -san was a term of endearment, perhaps only used with close friends. I felt this would be too forward in my case. Yet, I also understood that not using -san was considered rude. If you speak Spanish (I do just a very little bit), I had incorrectly equated it to using "tú" (i.e. -san) vs "usted" (i.e. not using -san). This quote will illustrate where I was coming from:

_When speaking to children, family members, intimates and companions, use the familiar form. When speaking to strangers and people to whom you are deferential (bosses, teachers, police, etc.) use the formal form. This is true for many languages that make this distinction. Choosing between "usted" and "tú" can be tricky. It depends on social context, and varies somewhat from one region to another, as well as from one social group to another. But as a general rule of thumb, if you think you would address a person in English as, "Sir", "Ma'am", "Mr. Smith", or "Ms. Jones", then you should probably use "usted" with that person. If you're on a first name basis with a person, you should probably use "tú". But pay attention to what people around you are using, because customs do vary. When in doubt, you're less likely to cause offense by using "usted", so that's the safe bet.
_


TurboScooter said:


> ...In terms of addressing someone, you would generally use their last name, not first name (depends on the relationship, of course), so Koki would be Iwahara-san, not Koki-san.



Ah, I certainly didn't know this and have even seen "Shinichi-san" used here on the forum. These gentlemen sign their email with "Regards, Koki" or "Regards, Shin", and I have been calling them by their first names until now - would it seem unusual to change to Iwahara-san and Watanabe-san? Of course in English, if you were calling someone by their first name then switched to calling them "Mr. Last Name", this would be unusual, but I gather -san isn't exactly the same as "Mr.".



TurboScooter said:


> ...It's not really a 1:1 comparison, but think of it in reverse - how much would it really matter to you if someone who didn't speak or barely spoke English called you either Mr. First Name, Mr. Last Name, or just First Name? How odd would it sound to you if they called you Your Excellency or Lord or something along those lines?



I understand this - Mr. First or Mr. Last - being ok if our positions were reversed. (I'm just old enough to be offended if a young child addresses me by only my first name vs Mr. Steve, but that's another topic...)

Again, what is difficult for me is that there doesn't seem to be an exact parallel to -san in English, and without social cues and direct exposure to the culture it's difficult to arrive at a feel for what it is I may actually be calling someone! So this is where I stand:

-san =/= endearment (e.g. "Koki-dear")

-san =/= reverence (e.g. "Koki-highness")

-san == base civility (e.g. "Mr. Watanabe"), but not exactly the same as "Mr."


Am I getting close?


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## toddnmd (Mar 13, 2018)

Yes, I think you're getting close.

I was curious and found the following article which I found interesting: https://japantoday.com/category/fea...panese-honorific-suffix-when-speaking-english


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## hmansion (Mar 13, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> Yes, I think you're getting close.
> 
> I was curious and found the following article which I found interesting: https://japantoday.com/category/fea...panese-honorific-suffix-when-speaking-english



Thanks! I actually read that article in my homework on the subject before I started this thread!


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## TurboScooter (Mar 14, 2018)

hmansion said:


> I really appreciate your comprehensive thoughts on this, TurboScooter!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




English really doesn't have a direct translation; in this sense Japanese is probably more complex. The reason Mr./Mrs. doesn't really work as a direct translation is because -san is basically the default suffix for anyone's name. In situations where calling someone by their first name is perfectly normal in English you would still likely be calling this person -san in Japanese.

As a term of endearment you can kind of use an "inappropriate" honorific suffix. Generally speaking, the suffix -chan is used for girls, and -kun for boys. You will generally not be calling a grown man -kun, and even less likely -chan. But, depending on the relationship, you can indeed call a grown man -chan as a term of endearment. Using -chan with grown women can also be used as a term of endearment. Yobisute, while rude in most cases, is actually showing closeness when done appropriately. In the context of this conversation, though, you had it backwards (-san being a term of endearment, perhaps only used with close friends).

Japanese has "in group" and "out group" which is kind of like the familiar and formal, but it's probably more complex. For example, a friend of mine came to visit on vacation with her co-worker/friend. Well, they might be buddies hanging out on vacation (in group/familiar), but there's also a fairly large age difference between the two. So they both use -san with each other, but the younger uses Last Name -san and the older uses First Name -san. I think they might have also had a junior/senior (kouhai/senpai) relationship at work. It was several years back so I forget the details, but I'm pretty sure after a couple of days hanging out the friend asked, with a touch of uncertainty in her voice, if she could yobisute my name. She was already calling me First Name -san (I introduced myself by first name), but here she is walking the line of possibly crossing over into being rude and offending me by doing yobisute and dropping the -san. As you can see, it can be complicated.

The last name thing is a general convention, it's not that you absolutely don't call someone using their first name. In Japanese a lot of this is determined by the social distance between the parties, with people you are closer to it's completely normal to use first names. I have no familiar relationship with those two, so in Japanese I would default to Iwahara-san and Watanabe-san in Japanese. To me it feels a little odd if you go from Koki and Shin/Shinichi to Iwahara-san and Watanabe-san. In that case you are moving from more familiar to more formal, like it feels as if the relationship is moving backwards, if that makes sense. I'm going by what I think of as general use cases, but the rules for these aren't set in stone, it's more societal norms that you kind of follow but it also depends on each individual relationship. Again, as a non-Japanese speaker you probably have a lot of leeway afforded to you. If I were in your position I would probably mix English and Japanese conventions and just add -san to their first names, especially since you're already calling them by first name.

There might be practical reasons too, for using First Name -san instead of Last Name -san. Some last names are common, so if you manage to have two people with the same last name in the same place at the same time then you could switch over to First Name -san, even if normally the relationship would call for Last Name -san.

Again, too, with people attaching -san to a first name on the forums, you also have the meeting of the cultures happening. I get the impression that most people on this forum don't speak Japanese, so I think they're probaby not aware of most of this Japanese language/culture stuff, if any. Communication on the forum is almost entirely in English, and so you would expect English language conventions to be followed the most (calling people by first name), and since much of the knife focus is Japan related you get just a hint of Japanese conventions in the mix (affixing -san).

And one last thing just for the sake of clarity. Please don't attach a suffix to your own name. It's only used when referring to other people, not yourself. Like the rest there are actually exceptions to this one too, but really, it's for the best if you just treat that one as an actual rule that is not to be broken.


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## Jovidah (Mar 14, 2018)

TurboScooter said:


> And one last thing just for the sake of clarity. Please don't attach a suffix to your own name. It's only used when referring to other people, not yourself. Like the rest there are actually exceptions to this one too, but really, it's for the best if you just treat that one as an actual rule that is not to be broken.


Wait...so I can't just keep adding -babe or -badass behind my name all my name all the time? Oh darn...


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## hmansion (Mar 15, 2018)

TurboScooter said:


> ...The reason Mr./Mrs. doesn't really work as a direct translation is because -san is basically the default suffix for anyone's name. In situations where calling someone by their first name is perfectly normal in English you would still likely be calling this person -san in Japanese...



Good clarification.




TurboScooter said:


> ...Japanese has "in group" and "out group" which is kind of like the familiar and formal, but it's probably more complex. For example, a friend of mine came to visit on vacation with her co-worker/friend. Well, they might be buddies hanging out on vacation (in group/familiar), but there's also a fairly large age difference between the two. So they both use -san with each other, but the younger uses Last Name -san and the older uses First Name -san. I think they might have also had a junior/senior (kouhai/senpai) relationship at work. It was several years back so I forget the details, but I'm pretty sure after a couple of days hanging out the friend asked, with a touch of uncertainty in her voice, if she could yobisute my name. She was already calling me First Name -san (I introduced myself by first name), but here she is walking the line of possibly crossing over into being rude and offending me by doing yobisute and dropping the -san. As you can see, it can be complicated...



This is a _*very*_ helpful example - the specific ages/relationships really illuminate the subtleties in -san usage I was still not quite clear about.




TurboScooter said:


> ...The last name thing is a general convention, it's not that you absolutely don't call someone using their first name. In Japanese a lot of this is determined by the social distance between the parties, with people you are closer to it's completely normal to use first names. I have no familiar relationship with those two, so in Japanese I would default to Iwahara-san and Watanabe-san in Japanese. To me it feels a little odd if you go from Koki and Shin/Shinichi to Iwahara-san and Watanabe-san. In that case you are moving from more familiar to more formal, like it feels as if the relationship is moving backwards...



Glad for this point and just as in English, it's odd going to Last Name after being on First Name basis. This was a particular area of concern for me.




TurboScooter said:


> ...Again, too, with people attaching -san to a first name on the forums, you also have the meeting of the cultures happening. I get the impression that most people on this forum don't speak Japanese, so I think they're probaby not aware of most of this Japanese language/culture stuff, if any. Communication on the forum is almost entirely in English, and so you would expect English language conventions to be followed the most (calling people by first name), and since much of the knife focus is Japan related you get just a hint of Japanese conventions in the mix (affixing -san)...



Makes sense.




TurboScooter said:


> ...And one last thing just for the sake of clarity. Please don't attach a suffix to your own name. It's only used when referring to other people, not yourself. Like the rest there are actually exceptions to this one too, but really, it's for the best if you just treat that one as an actual rule that is not to be broken.



I would not have even thought to do this and for some reason it makes me think of guys who refer to themselves in the third person as "The Big Guy" or "Big Dog" :lol2:

Your series of posts, this last one in particular, are the most helpful and comprehensive sources of information that I've found online regarding -san use. It's clear that you not only have a strong understanding of Japanese culture but also have an eye for interpersonal dynamics and a keen ability to explain these subtleties.

In terms of my specific situation, I now feel comfortable deciding what to do and will likely go with Koki-san and Shinichi-san in future correspondence.

You spent a great deal of time and thought here and I am truly grateful. Thank you, TurboScooter.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 17, 2018)

I always wondered about the infamous "kisama" - does the japanese language know scathing sarcasm or is there a completely different semantic ingredient at work here?


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## Chef Doom (Mar 18, 2018)

If you really want to show them respect, you should always refer to them as Oyabun. Especially you you are giving them a gift.


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