# Opinion of : Windmühlenmesser (Robert Herder) B1 Rudolf Broch knife



## Matus (Jun 12, 2014)

Hello,

I have only recently become aware of Robert Herber knives that are made by Windmühlenmesser manufacture in Solingen, Germnay. The offer interesting range of mostly european style knives both in carbon and stainless steels. What puts them aside of the common German knives is that they are relatively thin and hardened to 60-61 HRC (depending on steel, some models may be softer).

The manufacture does not have directly any usable webpage, the best source of information is their storefront: http://www.messer-mit-tradition.de, but some online shops in UK do carry them too, though usually not the full range and without much information.

Anyhow - they have a few different knife lines and quite some knives that do not really fit any category. Most of their knives seem to be grinded from steel sheets (not a surprise as most of their knives cost 60 or less), only the line 1922 and the single knife 'B1 Rudolf Broch' are hand forged. At least to my understanding. 

And it is indeed the *B1 Rudolf Broch* knife I would like to ask your opinion about. 

According to the German description (which uses very complicated words and special names for process that mostly are not that special or uncommon) the knife is:
- thin hand forged by Rudolf Broch - supposedly one of the last "true" knife smiths in Soligen (the gentleman is about 71, so that may be actually true)
- is forged from carbon steel with 1.1% carbon content (I do not know the exact steel)
- is monosteel knife
- has a little of 'kurouchi' left just in front of the handle
- has grind called 'Walkschiff' which I understand is something like full convex grind.
- has 130mm blade
- weight around 130-140g - what suggests that the full tang is a bit too thick
- handle gives enough room for knuckles
- the blade has 'blaugepliestet' finish - which should be some sort of polish in with leather that should give the blade slightly blueish reflection (many Windmühlenmesser knives have this finish)
- costs around 240 (around $330) with walnut root handle. Not cheap at all, but this is hand forged knife in Germany (life is expensive here and so is hand work)

In my opinion this knife has very interesting design - could actually well do the work that one would use ko-bunka with similar blade size for - that is also the reason why I am tempted to give it a try - to see how it compares to Masakage Koishi ko-bunka.

***
Enough for the introduction - what is your opinion or experience? Also on Herder knives in general (I do not put too much weight on what I read on German knife fora)
***


Here is a photo from the above mentioned webpage:


----------



## EdipisReks (Jun 12, 2014)

Nice looking knife. I like my Sheeps foot carbon Herder parer. I wouldn't spend that on a knife so small.


----------



## banjo1071 (Jun 13, 2014)

HI Matus
I am a big fan of windmühlenmesser. I love my K2, ist realllllly thin, but still sturdy.
Want i dont like is their venture in the higher priced segments. Their "premium" lines as well as their Santoku/Nakiris are vovrpriced imho.
Best knives (Imoh):
-Hechtsäbel
-Yagatan
-K2-4
-the small cheap parers
-Buckelsklingen (very traditional german breakfast-knives)

Greets Benjamin


----------



## Matus (Jun 13, 2014)

I am considering now to get a few of their cheaper knives and simply test them for a while and then deciding whether to get the B1. I have already learned that while all (at least most) of their stainless models are hardened to HRC60 and are made from the same Cr-Mo steel with 0.7% Carbon and 14.5% Chromium, the carbon steel ones vary depending on the mode between HRC58 - HRC61 The carbon content varies too (0.7% - 1.1%).


----------



## banjo1071 (Jun 13, 2014)

get the k2 in carbon ! Fun knife, still very usefull. Sort of a superthin minisantoku....


----------



## riba (Jun 13, 2014)

I also have a carbon K2. Fun little knife. Edge retention is not great imo, but touch ups are very easy and quick.


----------



## erikz (Jun 13, 2014)

Their little Windmülhen peelers are cheap and do the job very good as well.


----------



## Matus (Jun 13, 2014)

I have just realized that our family cottage could make use of a few decent stainless knives. That means that now I have a good enough reason to buy some and test them. I will probably start with some of their small peelers and if I find them fit, then I will get 2-3 bigger ones too.


----------



## apathetic (Jun 13, 2014)

erikz said:


> Their little Windmülhen peelers are cheap and do the job very good as well.



I have one as well and it does perform


----------



## erikz (Jun 13, 2014)

Matus said:


> I have just realized that our family cottage could make use of a few decent stainless knives. That means that now I have a good enough reason to buy some and test them. I will probably start with some of their small peelers and if I find them fit, then I will get 2-3 bigger ones too.



See there's always a reason to keep spending money on blades


----------



## Matus (Jun 13, 2014)

I have just ordered the small peeling tool, 4" pairing knife (stainless) and 3.25" straight blade garden knife (carbon) that I plan to use on cardboard boxes (2nd choice would have been Carter Brute Neck Knife  ).

I will post some quick review once the knives are there.


----------



## Robert (Jun 13, 2014)

there stainless blades are by no way as good as there non stainless.The cheap ones have a terrible fit and finish,now even more than the ones my mother and grandmother used but they are very,very good peelers for no money


----------



## Matus (Jun 14, 2014)

Yes, I also understand that the carbon blades are their main product. I am still trying to find out more information about the steel. What I have learned so far is that their simple & cheaper knives are made from C80 (1080) carbon steel. But I do not know yet what steel they use for their knives with higher carbon content (K-series, 1922, B1, pocket knives, some of their japanese designs).

I have managed to find a few interesting videos - unfortunately for most of you in German language. But here they are:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL376A257FB5F212B7


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr (Jun 14, 2014)

Matus said:


> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL376A257FB5F212B7


I have no idea what those guys were talking about, but it looked really weird when they started to cut shoe right on the table. Were they THAT hungry? 

Btw, Matus, I tried to read this thread carefully but struggle to understand what so interesting have you found about this B1 knife. It looks a bit strange and seems to be very expensive for such a short knife. There seems to be plenty of more affordable (and I bet better performing) knives, so the only reason to buy this knife that I'm seeing, is to support German knifemakers. What am I missing here?


----------



## WarrenB (Jun 14, 2014)

I have managed to find a few interesting videos - unfortunately for most of you in German language. But here they are:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL376A257FB5F212B7[/QUOTE]

Even though I don't speak German I still found my self turning my TV down to listen to the video:dazed:


----------



## Matus (Jun 14, 2014)

Well, good question. It is quite a bit different from Japanese knives I already have, it seems like well thought out design, it is one of the last German kitchen hand make knives (I do not count here custom makers) that is made in a traditional way. For the same buck I could have a Carter in the same size, I know.


----------



## liren1 (Jun 14, 2014)

At the risk of hijacking the thread, while looking at a German site (thank you Google Translate) I found a knife called Fissler Bionic. The knife's description makes the analogy to the ever sharp beaver's teeth, so as I understand their claim, the knife is 'always sharp'. The metal is X50 Cr Mo V15, that if I remember correctly is the same as Wusthoff ?
Other than using the word 'bionic' as an obvious marketing ploy does anyone know anything about this ? The 20 cm chef knife is sold for the outrageous price of 350 Euro, or about $500, I can't imagine why anyone would buy this.


----------



## Matus (Jun 14, 2014)

liren1 said:


> At the risk of hijacking the thread, while looking at a German site (thank you Google Translate) I found a knife called Fissler Bionic. The knife's description makes the analogy to the ever sharp beaver's teeth, so as I understand their claim, the knife is 'always sharp'. The metal is X50 Cr Mo V15, that if I remember correctly is the same as Wusthoff ?
> Other than using the word 'bionic' as an obvious marketing ploy does anyone know anything about this ? The 20 cm chef knife is sold for the outrageous price of 350 Euro, or about $500, I can't imagine why anyone would buy this.



I would not want to start a discussion on different topic here, so just shortly: Yes - the steel seem the same as on Wusthof and if it is HT the same way I would just say "thank you, but no". The knives look very heavy and indeed - the Chef's knife with 20cm blade weight 300g (the 18cm santoku 270g). The price looks just ridiculous to me. They flame some very fancy technology for the cutting edge (some 'beaver' stuff  ) - which I am not too convinced will actually work. But look at the geometry - that thing will not get through a carrot unless you use a hammer. 

Now, let's get back on topic - Robert Herder knives


----------



## liren1 (Jun 14, 2014)

apologies for the hijack, I just didn't think it would merit a thread of its own.
Back to Herder, looking at the photo of the 1922 series chef it looks like a Sabatier, doesn't it ? Only Sabatiers are 55-58 , and this is 60, are they 'better' than the equivalent K-Sabatier for example ?


----------



## Matus (Jun 14, 2014)

No problem. Well - that is an interesting question. Sabatier knives being 'softer' will probably not hold edge as long, but what other advantages or disadvantages against the Herder 1922 knives they have I do not know. If my 'test' purchase will look promising, than I may also try the 1922 petty (I do not need the slicing or chef's knife), but I am not decided yet.


----------



## WarrenB (Jun 14, 2014)

Hi Matus, is this the same one you were talking about in your OP? http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-robert-herder-9218-1595-18.htm


----------



## Matus (Jun 14, 2014)

Hello Warren, YES - that is exactly the knife I am talking about.


----------



## WarrenB (Jun 14, 2014)

Seems a bit cheaper at around 216, thought you would have got a better deal in Germany as they are made there?


----------



## Matus (Jun 14, 2014)

I have found one for 200, but my registration at that online shop did not really work. I will check it out again should I decide to buy the knife.


----------



## WarrenB (Jun 14, 2014)

Ok just seeing if I can find a good deal on one for you:thumbsup:


----------



## riba (Jun 14, 2014)

Matus said:


> I have just ordered the small peeling tool, 4" pairing knife (stainless) and 3.25" straight blade garden knife (carbon) that I plan to use on cardboard boxes (2nd choice would have been Carter Brute Neck Knife  ).
> 
> I will post some quick review once the knives are there.


just shoot me a pm in case you want to play with my carbon k2


----------



## rick alen (Dec 5, 2015)

OK so Kaufman Mercantile is the only US distributor I have been able to find for the herder 3" peeler, but they have been out of stock for over 2 months, and it really looks like they are phasing out their kitchen stuff as most everything is out of stock.

I saw the 4" peeler/kitchen knife for $36, but it seemed a bit large, don't know if it has the super-thin blade.

So is there a distributor who can ship me one of these peelers for a reasonable price? Or would I do well getting the 4". I just want that really thin blade because it is what it is.


Rick


----------



## berko (Dec 5, 2015)

im not sure whether you are lookin for one of those or if you are after the k-line.





i have a few spare ones of these, if your interested...


----------



## Matus (Dec 5, 2015)

I have to admit that I have 'left' Windmuehle knives. I have tested briefly a few and was not quite as impressed as I hoped to be and so I did not order that B1 knife even though it is supposed to be made from different (more carbon) steel. But thank you for the offer.


----------



## berko (Dec 5, 2015)

sorry matus, didnt mean to adress you


----------



## Matus (Dec 5, 2015)

no problem


----------



## rick alen (Dec 5, 2015)

Berko, sent you a PM.



Rick


----------



## Benuser (Dec 8, 2015)

As for the B1, it must be meant by some marketing guys as a collector's item. Just paid 130 for a 23cm chef's knife of the "1922" series.


----------



## Danieru (Dec 8, 2015)

Well maybe, but it should be noted that the b1 seems to be indeed hand forged and comes with nice handle woods. On the other hand the 1922 is only "Gesenkgeschmiedet" I'm a bit too lazy to search for the correct translation but I think "inlay forged" might be apt. Basically it gets hit a few times with a large mechanical hammer and that's it. 240 bucks for a blade that size that is handforged in germany seems not that unreasonable.


----------



## Benuser (Dec 9, 2015)

The makers want us to believe that hand forging gives a denser structure than drop forging. From that moment I can't take them seriously.


----------



## Danieru (Dec 9, 2015)

If I'm not mistaken metall urgically only cold forging matters? It is questionable if they do that. They certainly don't on the 1922, I can tell you that. And I certainly wasn't trying to imply that the B1 would be better (nevermind it being a completely different blade than a 1922) because of being hand forged. It's just more work obviously and therefore reflected in the price.


----------



## Matus (Dec 9, 2015)

The question more is - how would the B1 compare to something like Masakage Koishi ko-bunka which is in comparable price range with super-blue core. I still suspect the B1 would be on the softer & easier to sharpen side since it is directed at german market. But I am just guessing here. I may order one in the future just to find out


----------



## Danieru (Dec 9, 2015)

Yeah I would expect it to sharpen easier than super blue too. It's probably pretty plain carbon steel similar to the one(s) Herder uses in their other knifes. Honestly though, personally I can not really take the B1 very serious. It's just way too short for a start. And if we're talking about the german market I have my doubts it has great value for the price, even being completely handforged. I'm not entirely sure, but I have a hunch you could get a no frills handforged knife about that size from a german custom maker for maybe 50% more. Fwiw I'm almost certain you could get a Schanz custom that size for that. But afaik Schanz mostly works with stock removal.


----------

