# Suehiro Rika vs Arashiyama 6000



## patrokov

I am relatively new to Japanese knives and have been doing a ton of research on sharpening including watching Dave's DVDs and have used oilstones on pocket knives when I wore a younger man's clothes. I have settled on the Bester 1200 for a medium/coarse stone and am thinking about either the Suehiro Rika or the Arashiyama 6000/Takenoko 8000 for a medium/fine stone. I'm looking for input as to which of the two would be better in the long run. 

I've seen both described as fast-cutting (for the grit), great feedback, great for beginners, and leave a good finish--but finding people who compare them is a bit more difficult. The price difference between the two is only $13, so cost isn't really an issue. I would especially appreciate feedback from people who have used both.


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## ecchef

I have both, and would take the Rika over the Takenoko any day. For me, it's more versatile & has better feedback.


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## Mucho Bocho

Pat, I have the stones you mentioned as well. It have to say the the takenono/arashiama are wonderful stones for dry stropping to refresh the edge.

400 nanawa, 1200 bester, 5K Rika, ~6K takenono then finish stainless knives on 1u boron carbide on balsa, for carbon I finished with 1u diamond spray on felt. However being a home cook, I'm able to go months between sharpening by refreshing the edge with just a stone strop then compound. I only use the 400 when a customers knife needs thinning. 

I'm no way a sharpening expert but thanks to folks on the forum, I think I've gleaned some knowledge on the subject. I'm able to bring most double bevel knives back to sticky sharp. 

I was in your situation your about a year ago, there may be better stones out there but I'm continually impressed with the Takenono.


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## cazhpfan

How does the Arashiyama 6K compare to the Rika 5K?

I've been debating about which one to pick up...


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## Mucho Bocho

They work together but I supposed you could jump from the 1200 to the 6K takenono? I think most would add the 5K Rika in the progression. But like I said I know very little about stones and this progression was suggested to me


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## cazhpfan

I could be wrong, but the Arashiyama is a 6k stone while the Takenoko is an 8k stone.

Not sure I need an 8k for a gyuto...

Should I go for the arashiyama or the rika?

I'm looking for something that first and foremost gives good feedback.

Thank you for the help!



Mucho Bocho said:


> They work together but I supposed you could jump from the 1200 to the 6K takenono? I think most would add the 5K Rika in the progression. But like I said I know very little about stones and this progression was suggested to me


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## cazhpfan

Err...I did not realize that Arashiyama/Takenoko were one and the same. 

In this case, does the Rika leave a refined-enough edge given that most folks say it's more of a 2k/3k edge?



cazhpfan said:


> I could be wrong, but the Arashiyama is a 6k stone while the Takenoko is an 8k stone.
> 
> Not sure I need an 8k for a gyuto...
> 
> Should I go for the arashiyama or the rika?
> 
> I'm looking for something that first and foremost gives good feedback.
> 
> Thank you for the help!


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## patrokov

1.The issue, I believe, is subjective feel vs actual grit size. In the case of the Takenoko/Arashiyama, it's compounded by the stone being sold under two names with different grits even though it appears to be the same stone.

2. From JapaneseKnifeSharpeningStore:

Suehiro Rika:
"This stone offers, what appears to be, a 3000x edge (not very shiny) however the edge quality is 5000x, no question about it. This stone makes a great stopping point for double bevel knives."

Takenoko
"This is a great stone in the quality of edge it provides. If you like an edge that bites then this is the stone for you. I find it cuts very fast yet isn't aggressive and it has such a great feeling, providing feedback, and making the sharpening experience more pleasurable. This stone will allow you to skip the use of many coarse and medium grit stones thus reducing your sharpening times without reducing quality of your end result...From my own testing I believe this stone to be the same as the Arashiyama 6k."

3. And Dave once offered a refund to customers who had bought both the Arashiyama and the Takenoko originally thinking they were two different stones.
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/850519/

4. One additional benefit of the Arashiyama is that it can be permasoaked like the Bester.

5. As for the jump, there are plenty of 1000/6000 combo stones. There are plenty of threads with people who use 1000/1200 and then jump to either the Suehiro Rika or the Arashiyama. But as I said before, only one thread that I could find where they were directly compared.
http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/toj...level-intro-to-japanese-knives/60#post_335445


> As nice as the Suehiro Rika is, it really acts more like a 3K than a 5K and does not compare to the Arashiyama/Takenoko as a finishing stone. They do different things. The Rika is an extremely pleasant stone to use, and you can make the Rika polish up to a kinda sorta 5K level by really working the mud and breaking down the abrasive; but it's nowhere near as fast as the Arashiayama to draw a burr, nor will it give you anywhere near the same level of "slippery" polish.
> 
> It's confusing, but the grit numbers only tell you so much. Stones have their own personalities, you have to work with them to figure them out. Your best strategy (and mine too) is to ask people we trust who have used them. Of course, that means figuring out the people too -- whom you should listen to and who will only waste your time.


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## JBroida

the rika can be permasoaked too... its a vitirified stone


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## Sherski

I have the Arashiyama and I like the response of the stone. Its a hard stone that isn't prone to gouging(not that I've done anything to deliberately do that of course) but it is very easy to use as it cuts quite quickly with a couple of spritzers of water, doesn't load and will leave a decent smooth shine on your edge. The only thing about this,for me, is that I would prefer using an intermediate 4000grit before the arashiyama as I don't like to spend too much time trying to finish off the stone on the 6000grit with such a big progression. I guess what I'm trying to say is,a little more time on my 4000 makes life easier for me on the 6000 arashiyama. 
Ease of care for me is simple,keep it aired and comfortable until you use it,and clean it gently after each use. After washing I just let it dry on a rack before it goes back on my shelf.


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## patrokov

JBroida said:


> the rika can be permasoaked too... its a vitirified stone



Thanks Jon. I had thought it could be but was confused by this sentence on Japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com
"Requires soaking in water - but only soak for as long as it takes to stay wet on the surface."


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## cazhpfan

By "response" you mean "feedback," right?

What stone do you start with before making the jump to 4k?

Thank you!



Sherski said:


> I have the Arashiyama and I like the response of the stone. Its a hard stone that isn't prone to gouging(not that I've done anything to deliberately do that of course) but it is very easy to use as it cuts quite quickly with a couple of spritzers of water, doesn't load and will leave a decent smooth shine on your edge. The only thing about this,for me, is that I would prefer using an intermediate 4000grit before the arashiyama as I don't like to spend too much time trying to finish off the stone on the 6000grit with such a big progression. I guess what I'm trying to say is,a little more time on my 4000 makes life easier for me on the 6000 arashiyama.
> Ease of care for me is simple,keep it aired and comfortable until you use it,and clean it gently after each use. After washing I just let it dry on a rack before it goes back on my shelf.


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## cazhpfan

Thank you very much for rounding up the great info!



patrokov said:


> 1.The issue, I believe, is subjective feel vs actual grit size. In the case of the Takenoko/Arashiyama, it's compounded by the stone being sold under two names with different grits even though it appears to be the same stone.
> 
> 2. From JapaneseKnifeSharpeningStore:
> 
> Suehiro Rika:
> "This stone offers, what appears to be, a 3000x edge (not very shiny) however the edge quality is 5000x, no question about it. This stone makes a great stopping point for double bevel knives."
> 
> Takenoko
> "This is a great stone in the quality of edge it provides. If you like an edge that bites then this is the stone for you. I find it cuts very fast yet isn't aggressive and it has such a great feeling, providing feedback, and making the sharpening experience more pleasurable. This stone will allow you to skip the use of many coarse and medium grit stones thus reducing your sharpening times without reducing quality of your end result...From my own testing I believe this stone to be the same as the Arashiyama 6k."
> 
> 3. And Dave once offered a refund to customers who had bought both the Arashiyama and the Takenoko originally thinking they were two different stones.
> http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/850519/
> 
> 4. One additional benefit of the Arashiyama is that it can be permasoaked like the Bester.
> 
> 5. As for the jump, there are plenty of 1000/6000 combo stones. There are plenty of threads with people who use 1000/1200 and then jump to either the Suehiro Rika or the Arashiyama. But as I said before, only one thread that I could find where they were directly compared.
> http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/toj...level-intro-to-japanese-knives/60#post_335445


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## Sherski

cazhpfan said:


> By "response" you mean "feedback," right?
> 
> What stone do you start with before making the jump to 4k?
> 
> Thank you!



If, by feedback, you mean how much metal the stone seems to be taking off the blade, and whether or not it feels hard,soft, sludgy/muddy/, and doesn't load up, then yes.

I use the green Chosera 1000grit as a starting stone. I don't normally use it as a stone to reprofile an edge (although you can) but I use it when I can feel my edges needing a fresh start and they just need a little 'perking up' before I progress.
Find the stones that fit your blade collection best. I think the pursuit of the holy grail of stones would create a lot more butthurt for someone with limited spending power. I personally like working with a set of stones that I can afford (as a chef de partie, that means probably about 2 months of saving up? ) that fit the following criteria:

1. Does it have a good reputation for being a stone that doesn't behave unpredictably even when cared for properly? 
2.What polish can I expect to get for that given price range?
3. Can I get a stone at that price without having excessive loading, slurry build up?
4. How will it fit on my set up? - some people just sharpen on wet tea towels; I have a Suehiro monorail stone holder; some guys prefer sink bridges etc.
5. How will that finish tie in with the next step in sharpening? I.e. how will it 'blend' with the next grit progression or stropping?

This list isn't exhaustive. By all means, it's not. But I think if you're an enthusiast with lotsa cash, why not buy a couple for sh*ts and giggles to find out? If you're like me and need to pick, you'd simply have to weigh out the pros and cons of it all and see which fits the bill best. And last thing from me, treat your stones with care. If they're splash and go, keep them that way, and if they're not meant to be soaked forever, laziness or convenience might not be the best excuse to leave stones in water. I might get criticism for saying this but because I know I don't have a deep pocket to draw from, I just do what is within my ability to preserve my sharpening days 

Hope that helps you out.


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## cazhpfan

Awesome post!

I find that you and I are in the same boat money-wise; I also need to be very judicious in how I spend. Thus comes the need to ask questions/get feedback from others... 

I am planning the following stones for my rotation:

Some sort of diamond plate for lapping/thinning (will probably have to save-up for an Atoma as they have the most consistent diamond application)
Late 400
Bester 1,200
Arashiyama 6k
Homemade leather strop w/chromium oxide (I might build a felt + diamond spray strop eventually).

What do you think?

Thank you for all the help--it's super useful! :hungry:



Sherski said:


> If, by feedback, you mean how much metal the stone seems to be taking off the blade, and whether or not it feels hard,soft, sludgy/muddy/, and doesn't load up, then yes.
> 
> I use the green Chosera 1000grit as a starting stone. I don't normally use it as a stone to reprofile an edge (although you can) but I use it when I can feel my edges needing a fresh start and they just need a little 'perking up' before I progress.
> Find the stones that fit your blade collection best. I think the pursuit of the holy grail of stones would create a lot more butthurt for someone with limited spending power. I personally like working with a set of stones that I can afford (as a chef de partie, that means probably about 2 months of saving up? ) that fit the following criteria:
> 
> 1. Does it have a good reputation for being a stone that doesn't behave unpredictably even when cared for properly?
> 2.What polish can I expect to get for that given price range?
> 3. Can I get a stone at that price without having excessive loading, slurry build up?
> 4. How will it fit on my set up? - some people just sharpen on wet tea towels; I have a Suehiro monorail stone holder; some guys prefer sink bridges etc.
> 5. How will that finish tie in with the next step in sharpening? I.e. how will it 'blend' with the next grit progression or stropping?
> 
> This list isn't exhaustive. By all means, it's not. But I think if you're an enthusiast with lotsa cash, why not buy a couple for sh*ts and giggles to find out? If you're like me and need to pick, you'd simply have to weigh out the pros and cons of it all and see which fits the bill best. And last thing from me, treat your stones with care. If they're splash and go, keep them that way, and if they're not meant to be soaked forever, laziness or convenience might not be the best excuse to leave stones in water. I might get criticism for saying this but because I know I don't have a deep pocket to draw from, I just do what is within my ability to preserve my sharpening days
> 
> Hope that helps you out.


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## BeerChef

Just got a rika yesterday and even after just a few knives I can say I love this stone. Worked wonderfully on w2, as, and some random stainless. Hit my hiromoto with some .5 diamond on felt after the rika and had the best edge ive put on it yet.


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## labor of love

BeerChef said:


> Just got a rika yesterday and even after just a few knives I can say I love this stone. Worked wonderfully on w2, as, and some random stainless. Hit my hiromoto with some .5 diamond on felt after the rika and had the best edge ive put on it yet.



Good to hear. Rika is a great stone. Wonderful feedback and a bargain at its price.


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## dough

Arashiyama is a great stone but covers a broader range of polish... it somewhat covers the 6-8k range particularly if you know how to work the slurry. the rika is a dynamic quick 5k that does not dish overly quick and is good with most steels. 

you should get the arashiyama mounted if you buy one because they have a tendency to crack after enough drying cycles. the other fact is the arashiyama is the same stone as the takenoko which leads to grit can be subjective and your attitude that you think you dont need an 8K for a knife is more to do with your style both sharpening and cutting then a comment on actual grit. 

i like both stones and think they both have a place but the arashiyama covers a broader range and imo is a more enjoyable feeling stone to use however the rika is a more useful stone in a progression. i must admit if i could only have one or had to stop at one or the other id choose the arashiyama bc i like cutting with that edge better then an edge finished on a rika. 

also with all that said you arent me and dont seem like me so i say buy the rika and dont look back. imo its a more useful stone particularly for a beginner on a budget.


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## slowtyper

JBroida said:


> the rika can be permasoaked too... its a vitirified stone



Is it okay to permasoak stones that have cracks? I have the arashiyama but it has many cracks so I glued it to a piece of tile. I'd love to permasoak it if I could but I've never tried. 

BTW do you know if https://toshoknifearts.com/shop/sharpening-tools/sakura-stone-1000-grit is a vitrified stone?


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## patrokov

So it seems that I have:

ecchef: Suehiro rika hands down for being more versatile and better feedback. (Would you like to elaborate on what you mean by versatile?)
Mucho Bocho: kind of a vote for the Arashiyama
Sherski: likes the Arashiyama but likes an intermediate grit first so that the arashiyama goes faster (but no comparison to the Suehiro)
BeerChef: likes the Suehiro Rika but no comparison to the Arashiyama
labor of love: same
dough: Arashiyama because he likes the final edge better (although a Suehiro Rika might be more useful in a progression)

So, some final thoughts:
1. My budget of two stones (for now) is self imposed just so I don't get carried away. 
2. I don't think I will ever need to go higher than 6000 (just a lowly home cook), so either the Suehiro or the Arashiyama could fit that bill. I see more people say they like the cutting edge of the Arashiyama, which makes me lean toward it, as I cut far more often than I will sharpen.
3. The major factor the Suehiro Rika has going for it is that it may be quicker cutting than the Arashiyama and has better feedback.

SOOOO.... I am still leaning toward the Arashiyama. Anyone in South Florida who might want to let me use their stones so I can feel for myself? After all, what I'm asking is whether I'll like chocolate or vanilla better without ever having tasted either. :laugh:


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## daveb

FL? Which coast? For the price of a stamp you can try a Rika. No joy on Arashiyama but Rika is good all-rounder that pairs well with the Bestor 1.2K


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## cazhpfan

Dough, would you mind elaborating on how the edges from the two stones differ?

Thank you!



dough said:


> Arashiyama is a great stone but covers a broader range of polish... it somewhat covers the 6-8k range particularly if you know how to work the slurry. the rika is a dynamic quick 5k that does not dish overly quick and is good with most steels.
> 
> you should get the arashiyama mounted if you buy one because they have a tendency to crack after enough drying cycles. the other fact is the arashiyama is the same stone as the takenoko which leads to grit can be subjective and your attitude that you think you dont need an 8K for a knife is more to do with your style both sharpening and cutting then a comment on actual grit.
> 
> i like both stones and think they both have a place but the arashiyama covers a broader range and imo is a more enjoyable feeling stone to use however the rika is a more useful stone in a progression. i must admit if i could only have one or had to stop at one or the other id choose the arashiyama bc i like cutting with that edge better then an edge finished on a rika.
> 
> also with all that said you arent me and dont seem like me so i say buy the rika and dont look back. imo its a more useful stone particularly for a beginner on a budget.


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## patrokov

daveb said:


> FL? Which coast? For the price of a stamp you can try a Rika. No joy on Arashiyama but Rika is good all-rounder that pairs well with the Bestor 1.2K



I see you're near Tampa. I'm in Palm Beach County, but my wife's parents live in Tampa, so we visit a couple times a year.


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## toddnmd

When I started freehand sharpening a couple years ago, I saw a good number of recommendations for both of these stones--they both seem to be pretty well regarded. I ended up going with the Arashiyama, and I'm happy with it. No Suehiro Rika experience to compare. 

For a relative beginner, I'm guessing that either of these stones would work pretty well to refine the edge--I don't see any clearly wrong choice between the two. I think I'd have to be a significantly better and more experienced sharpener to see that much difference.


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## cazhpfan

Thank you for the info, Todd! I'm leaning more and more towards the Arashiyama.



toddnmd said:


> When I started freehand sharpening a couple years ago, I saw a good number of recommendations for both of these stones--they both seem to be pretty well regarded. I ended up going with the Arashiyama, and I'm happy with it. No Suehiro Rika experience to compare.
> 
> For a relative beginner, I'm guessing that either of these stones would work pretty well to refine the edge--I don't see any clearly wrong choice between the two. I think I'd have to be a significantly better and more experienced sharpener to see that much difference.


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## slowtyper

I have an arashiyama and its fine but I prefer the Rika. My coworker has one at work so when i sharpen at work, I use that. When I sharpen at home, I use the Arashiyama. I just like the feel of the stone better. As for the actual edge, I can't really tell any difference but I don't think about it too much.


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## Yamabushi

patrokov said:


> Anyone in South Florida who might want to let me use their stones so I can feel for myself?





daveb said:


> FL? Which coast?



Sorry for being off topic, but being a native Floridian and growing up in West Palm Beach, IMHO, "South Florida" can only mean the area comprised of Broward, Dade, and Palm Beach County.


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## Sherski

Well, I would've like to give a comparison to the Rika but I don't have one so I couldn't say much about it. But what I can say is, just hold your breath and take the plunge. With regards to stones cracking for no reason, if you do your best to look after them and use your tools in the manner in which they are supposed to be used, I don't see any reasons for unpredictable stone behaviour.


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## patrokov

Yamabushi said:


> Sorry for being off topic, but being a native Floridian and growing up in West Palm Beach, IMHO, "South Florida" can only mean the area comprised of Broward, Dade, and Palm Beach County.



Indeed. Tampa, Sarasota, even Naples is not "South Florida"

Since people keep mentioning cracks, I'll refer to Jon's post: 
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...pening-Stones-Soaking-vs-Splash-nGo-Some-Info


> Resinoid based stones respond to soaking and drying differently from ceramic, clay based, and magnesia based stones. Magnesia based stones, like the chocera, will crack when over-soaked due to magnesia (the binding agent) leaching out in the water. After a while, the stone looses structural stability. Clay based and ceramic stones do not have any cracking problems unless dropped (or sometimes when they are worn thin and you exert too much pressure in an unsupported section). Vitrified stones work in a similar way to the ceramic and clay based stones, but are often less firm and can break more easily when dropped and/or worn too thin. Resinoid based stones, like the gesshin 6000, arashiyama, kitayama, and even some of maxim's stones, respond to soaking differently. The soaking is actually not the issue at all. Soaking helps soften the stone, causing it to release more abrasive more quickly, improving tactile feedback, and helping create more mud. However, repeated soaking and drying, drying too quickly, or changes in humidity based on environment cause the stone to dry out unevenly. Because resinoid based stones are not as porous, air can not penetrate as quickly, nor can water escape in the same way. As water leaves the outer portion of the stone, the loss of mass causes the outside of the stone to shrink faster than the inside of the stone, which is the main cause of cracking with stones like this. Therefore, when it comes to resinoid based stones, you need to pick one of the following ways of dealing with them:
> -soak permanently
> -use as a splash and go stone
> -soak and dry, but dry very carefully and slowly, while paying attention to general humidity



FYI, the Suehiro Rika is vitrified, and the Arashiyama is resinoid (according to Jon...WTH do I know?)


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## JBroida

that is accurate


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