# Coarse stones are getting smoother



## Kawa (Jun 24, 2020)

Hi all,

I have a question about my coarse stones which I can't find any info/topics about.

Long ago I only had a Naniwa SS combo of 220/1000 and SS combo of 2000/5000. I was my starters set. I read good reviews about that brand back then, but was afraid to purchase their premium line as a starters kit for a newbie.
The 1000 gritt wasnt sufficient to start on for me when i try to sharpen those really chipped kitchen drawer knives from friends. But the 220 was to coarse for my own 'dull but not chipped' knives. So i thought, lets buy a stone between 220 en 1000 and let's try the more expensive Chosera line.

So i bought this 600 Chosera which came with a nagura (Naniwa dressing stone A-206).
I really like the Chosera. It's harder then my superstones, *gives incredible feedback* (it almost speaks to me ) and the finish on my knives were between 220 and 1000.

I always flatten my stones with a Naniwa flattening stone, 220 gritt. So I just thought, lets experiment with this dressing stone which came with the Chosera. Maybe it's handy for cleaning, making a slurry or whatever.
Since then my 600 Chosera is much smoother (feeling by hand, also a more shiny finish on my knives and cuts a little slower). Nothing seems to being able to bring it back to the original coarseness (which ofcoarse i can feel on the side of the stone that I don't use & on the very top and bottom of the stone which i touch less then the middle). I've tried flattening (always making a pencil grid and stop when they are gone) with 220, even with 60 gritt. Also i've tried scrubbing the stone sturdy with a dish brush (maybe it's clogged?).

Fine, won't happen again. Let's buy the Chosera 400.
Same effect after a few times using it (this time, no dressing stone used).

Fine, must be a characteristic of Chosera.
Let's buy a Shapton glass 120.
Even this one is way smoother now then when i bought it (I can still feel the original coarseness in the corners of the stone, even after flattening it.) I tried flattening with the 60 gritt, which I hate because it looses particles fast and then i hear my stones scream in agony. No results.

I'm leaning towards the feeling that this Shapton glass 120 is now even smoother then my superstone 220 and Shapton pro 220 (the last 2 stones are soft, feel the same, give the same result and they stay the same after using it). My last knife (brandless piece of junk) did't even really bite on the 120, it felt like it was skidding. The 220 had no trouble grinding it.


So, long story. What's happening here?
- Are they just clogged with particles?
- Is this suppose to happen?
- If not, how can i counter this?
- Is this the effect of Chosera what i read about on this forum? "they are a little smoother then their gritt number tells". (By eye the result after 600 Chosera is really close to superstone 1000. 600 has a little deeper scratches, but somehow a little more mirror shine also. The 1000 superstone is more of a matte/smoother finish)
- yes, then why are they coarser for the first few times?
- On the shapton glass, should I just use less 'water coating' on the stone when grinding? (could have tried this myself ofcourse, but just first thinking this while writing this  ). Still, it is way smoother then what i bought it for.

- Or something completely different.

Thx for reading.


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## PappaG (Jun 24, 2020)

I don't have much to help you with other then I recall a relatively recent post that went pretty deeply into "resurfacing" stones to bring them back to their original feel. After I have some coffee I will try to find it.

The post went a little deeper then the standard advice to "get diamond plate" to flatten your stones. I think you can regain or get closer to that original "roughness" on your stones, but we need to dig that post up for some better advice.


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## Kawa (Jun 24, 2020)

Thx! Much appreciated.
I'm starting to get that feeling that a whole new world will open for me


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## PappaG (Jun 24, 2020)

This is the post I was referring to. I'm not sure it answers your question but you might want to bump that one up. Seems like Sic powder might be the answer...






Explorations in surface texture of sharpening stones


Hi Folks, I wanted to share some observations and hopefully start a conversation around surface texture of sharpening stones, and how to re-texturize for different purposes. Even though these topics go hand in hand, I’m focusing on surface texturization/preparation, and not on flattening. I...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Barclid (Jun 24, 2020)

Silicon Carbide and a tempered glass plate. Flatten the stone normally, then sprinkle a little on and add some water and rub. Make sure the grit you use is coarser than the stone. The coarser the grit, the rougher the stone and the faster it will cut. Preventing the glazing entirely will depend upon how you flatten/condition it to begin with, the steel and the hardness of said steel that you're sharpening and the pressure you use. If you are sharpening clad knives, you can sharpen part of the cladding while thinning on the stone to get it to release fresh abrasive.


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## M1k3 (Jun 24, 2020)

^^^^^^
Especially the Shapton Pro 120. That stone is super hard. It needs refreshing when it stops cutting.


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## Kawa (Jun 24, 2020)

Thank you all for the replies and for the link. I've just learned a new way to try to tackle my problem 

Summary from what i've just read is I need to buy coarse SiC powder with a tempered glass plate for my coarse and harder stones. The powder needs to be coarser then the stone gritt. Just flattening isn't enough to maintain coarse/hard stones. 

This is correct?


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## Barclid (Jun 24, 2020)

Basically.


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## Qapla' (Jun 24, 2020)

So are diamond-plates not so suitable for resurfacing stones after all?


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## Barclid (Jun 24, 2020)

They're fine but it depends on the plate and the stone. A fresh Atoma 140 is going to leave a coarser surface than a worn one and certain stones that are inherently less friable tend to smooth out from being flattened with diamond plates.


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## M1k3 (Jun 24, 2020)

They are. The SP120 definitely needs to be lapped coarser.

I actually just got the Large Flattening Plate from JKI. It comes with 20 and 120 grit sides. I use the 20 grit side for the SP120. The 120 side I use for my higher grits.


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## ian (Jun 24, 2020)

Now I feel like I have to get it. But it’s too freakin huge.... where is yours again, in the closet?


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## M1k3 (Jun 24, 2020)

ian said:


> Now I feel like I have to get it. But it’s too freakin huge.... where is yours again, in the closet?


Yeah. In between a cheap plastic 3 drawer storage thing and the wall. I thought it would be a pain. But it's actually handy. I can put 3 stones side by side, stone holder and sink bridge on it. It's like a 7lb. tray.


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## soigne_west (Jun 24, 2020)

I feel temped to buy it too but I feel like the only stones I have that would truly benefit from it are my low grit glass, and at that point I feel like my fingertips would already be gone.


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## M1k3 (Jun 24, 2020)

Honestly, if I didn't have the SP120 or something similarly hard and coarse, I probably would have just got a diamond plate. 

But if you have the room and don't want/need to sharpen on diamond also, I'd actually grab this. With the the exception of using a diamond plate to create a slurry on natural stones.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 25, 2020)

The way I see it, "flattening" and "dressing" are diametrically opposed processes. Flattening,,,or leveling...would undoubtedly leave you with a smooth surface,,, whereas dressing restores the grit and bite. That raises the question " Should we look at flattening as being "part of" what should be looked at as a 2-step process??

With that in mind, I ordered a few more Shapton Glass stones a few days ago, including the SG120 and SG220 to flatten and re-surface my SG320 and other coarse stones. In Fact,,,Canada Post should be delivering those any minute now,,,I've been pacing for the last few hours, waiting for that knock on the door.

When I ordered those plates, I also ordered some 60 grit SiC powder, and I plan to be using that in conjunction with my Naniwa large 220 flattening plate in a 2-step process,,,1,use the plate "bare" for flattening,,, and 2. sprinkle SiC powder on the same plate for resurfacing my coarse stones. I won't need then, a glass plate. Hopefully, that'll work as planned.

Now,,, where is that Canada Post truck?????

FWIW, I also added an SG500 and SG2000 to my order, to complement my other Shaptons,,,(SG 320,,SG1k,,,SG4k,,, SG8k. I've got the Shapton DGLP, but that's strictly for flattening 500 grit and finer.


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## soigne_west (Jun 25, 2020)

I have a 220 glass, and IMO it’s terrible, I would imagine the 120 is too, having to constantly lap your stones is a deal breaker for me. There are stones out there that just work. I’ll never buy a low grit shapton stone again.


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## Barclid (Jun 25, 2020)

Flattening and dressing are not "diametrically opposed" they are in fact two parts of the same. Flattening and dressing are both achieved by wearing down the surface of the stone in some way or other. If you flatten a 1k stone with a 140 grit Atoma, you are likely roughing up the surface sufficiently to condition it at the same time unless you're trying to flatten something like a vitrified diamond stone. The further conditioning becomes necessary if, after flattening, the flattening process resulted in a smoother-than-desired surface.

Also, have fun with your SG120. That thing will either glaze like crazy or shed grit like crazy depending on how it's cared for. It can be either the fastest or slowest wearing stone you own depending upon surface condition.


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## Barclid (Jun 25, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> I have a 220 glass, and IMO it’s terrible, I would imagine the 120 is too, having to constantly lap your stones is a deal breaker for me. There are stones out there that just work. I’ll never buy a low grit shapton stone again.


I disagree, and I use the SG220 for bevel setting and creating a good working thinned surface all the time. It all depends on how you treat the stone and what you're sharpening on it and how.


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## soigne_west (Jun 25, 2020)

For me personally, the only reason I own stones that low is mass metal removal/thinning. And having to dress or lap a stone every 5 minutes while already doing a not so fun job doesn’t appeal to me.


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## ian (Jun 25, 2020)

It’s a tradeoff, though, unless you’re using a diamond plate or something. I think of low grit shapton as being like the complete opposite of the low grit Gesshin soaker stones, for instance. (I’m really only talking about SG120 vs Gesshin 400, though, and extrapolating without care for correctness.) The Gesshin 400 never loads, like ever, but it dishes like a mofo. The SG doesn’t dish much at all, but loads a ton on iron cladding. Result: I have to spend a lot of time flattening/dressing both. Not sure one is more work than the other. That said, SG120 on stainless cladding is pretty dope, since it doesn’t glaze.


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## soigne_west (Jun 25, 2020)

I get that. The trade off, I guess what I’m more trying to say is I’ll take dishing over not/slow cutting any day. I have the Gesshin 320 splash and go, it’s IMO the best of the low grit stones I’ve tried so far.


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## Kawa (Jun 25, 2020)

I decided to replace my old (hollow) naniwa superstone 220. I wanted to experiment with Shapton, so I ordered a Pro220 to really replace my superstone 220 and a 120 glass to try out the difference between the pro and glass series. Why 120? most knives I get my hands onto are really heavily chipped (my friends knives are knife, screwdriver and pruning shears in one... ) A soft 220 like the superstone and shapton pro (although I think the shapton pro is a little harder then the superstone) really wears fast and it still takes me a long time to remove, lets say, 80% of the chips on those knives. I read the glass series suppose to be harder then the pro, so thats why I bought a 120glass next to a 220pro. That 120glass really glazes very fast. I'ts smoother then both 220's I have after one knife. I don't mind this, as long as I can solve this. So i'm willing to invest in Sic powder and a tempered glass plate next to using flattening stones only. I also like the fact that there is even more to this hobby then that i knew of.


For my learning, how does coarse SiC powder differ from using a really coarse (lets say, 60 gritt) flattening stone? 
Next to the advice to start dressing my stones with Sic next to flattening, I also read between the lines that I shouldn't be afraid to use my 60 gritt flattening stone on the really coarse stones. If I interpretatie this wrong, please tell me so.

So what does 'applying coarse sic powder with water onto the stone and rub it' do differently than using the appropriate gritt flattening stone (which i guess i did wrong) on my sharpening stones? In other words, what does dressing mean other then 'giving your stone back that coarse feeling'. What's happening there?


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## Kawa (Jun 25, 2020)

I just walked upstairs and suddenly something came up my mind. 
My 220 flattening stone from naniwa comes in a carton box i still store it in. That box is full of japanese words and there is 1 picture on it I never understood:
powder is being sprankled on a stone...
I never knew what this ment, so I forgot about it...

now it makes sence..


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 25, 2020)

Barclid said:


> Flattening and dressing are not "diametrically opposed" they are in fact two parts of the same. Flattening and dressing are both achieved by wearing down the surface of the stone in some way or other. If you flatten a 1k stone with a 140 grit Atoma, you are likely roughing up the surface sufficiently to condition it at the same time unless you're trying to flatten something like a vitrified diamond stone. *The further conditioning becomes necessary if, after flattening, the flattening process resulted in a smoother-than-desired surface.
> 
> Which is basically why I look at it as a 2-function process. Can you achieve both processes with a single step? Probably,,, but that probably depends on the bond of the abrasives, as well as the hardness of the abrasives themselves. The fact that I'm seeing many comments regarding reduced cutting capability after lapping/flattening, tells me that more attention should be placed on compatibility of the interface.
> 
> Also, have fun with your SG120. That thing will either glaze like crazy or shed grit like crazy depending on how it's cared for. *It can be either the fastest or slowest wearing stone you own depending upon surface condition.



Yeah, I was a bit reluctant to order that particular stone, especially after seeing Jef Jewell's preferance for the SP 120 over the SG 120. That said, the reason why I ordered the SG120 and SG220 had more to do with the SG320 that I already have. Given that I can't use my Shapton DGLP to flatten below 500 grit, I needed something to flatten my 320. One alternative was to use the 3-stone method, and that would have left me with 3 SG320's, and ordering the SG120 and SG220 just seemed like a better option.


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## henkle (Jun 26, 2020)

Barclid said:


> Silicon Carbide and a tempered glass plate. Flatten the stone normally, then sprinkle a little on and add some water and rub. Make sure the grit you use is coarser than the stone. The coarser the grit, the rougher the stone and the faster it will cut. Preventing the glazing entirely will depend upon how you flatten/condition it to begin with, the steel and the hardness of said steel that you're sharpening and the pressure you use. If you are sharpening clad knives, you can sharpen part of the cladding while thinning on the stone to get it to release fresh abrasive.


Is there an ideal ratio for using a coarser grit when flattening a stone? For example, I have a Naniwa 1000/6000 combo stone. Would the same >1000 grit flattening stone be appropriate for both sides or would it tear up the 6000 grit side too much? What grit flattening stone would you recommend?


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## Kawa (Jun 27, 2020)

Since this topic I think i have to listen to my ratio more based on observations, instead of doing what I *think* that should be done... I start to think about it like this:

If I flatten my 600 Chosera with a 220 flattening stone, and the 600Chosera feels a little bit smoother/slicker then original afterwards -> my flattening stone simply was not coarse enough.
It isn't a problem per se if the Chosera still fits between your coarser and finer stone.

This approach is what I will try on all my stones for the next while. In my example above you basically make your Chosera a bit coarser but youre also polishing your 220 flattening stone with your Chosera! Since the Chosera is harder then my flattening stone, the polishing of the flattening stone happens faster then making my Chosera coarser with the flattening stone. This all depends of the hardness and bite of either your sharpening stones and flattening stones. But you always tend to bring the gritts of both stones closer together.


I don't think you can speak of an ideal ratio. To many variables (it all depends on the materials being able to bite into each other). I have a 2000/5000 Naniwa superstone combo, which are really soft stones. I can flatten them with a 220 and they do keep their original feeling, even though i leave 'to deep scrathes' on the stones. It doesnt really matter in practice, since after a few strokes with a knife, the surface is smooth again (soft stones). (I should use less pressure on these stones while flattening i guess)


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 27, 2020)

henkle said:


> Is there an ideal ratio for using a coarser grit when flattening a stone? For example, I have a Naniwa 1000/6000 combo stone. Would the same >1000 grit flattening stone be appropriate for both sides or would it tear up the 6000 grit side too much? What grit flattening stone would you recommend?



FWIW, Jef Jewell use 3 different SiC powder grits for flattening/re-surfacing. If I remember correctly he uses 90 grit SiC on his 120,220, and 320 grit stones,,,, 120/220 grit SiC on his 1k stones, and 500 grit SiC on his finer polishing stones (3k,5k,8k,and15k).

Go to the 6:45 mark of this video


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## kayman67 (Jun 27, 2020)

Designated grit is just a number. Means very little on it's own. That is why. 

With powders, something close to 1000 is way too fine. You need to consider something much lower first, like 100-200.

But, for 1000/6000 combo, it won't really make sense to have such a set-up. Get some sandpaper with low grits (something like 80+240 good quality dry/wet) and flatten them as needed. Between fattening sessions, use a dressing stone. It would be much more useful. And, overall, cheaper and easier to keep.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 27, 2020)

Kawa said:


> So what does 'applying coarse sic powder with water onto the stone and rub it' do differently than using the appropriate gritt flattening stone (which i guess i did wrong) on my sharpening stones? In other words, what does dressing mean other then 'giving your stone back that coarse feeling'. What's happening there?



SiC powder is not "bonded" to a plate, and has a highly irregular shape, not unlike common road-gravel,,,and as you rub your stone over the loose SiC powder, sharp edges of that SiCpowder are constantly rolling around and being presented to the stone's surface,,, and dressing or abrading the surface.
A given grit number,,,, say for example a 100 grit SiC powder,,, only has to pass through a 150 micron sieve. The actual particle may be quasi egg-shaped, or pear shaped and 150 microns across its' mid-section,,, but at the same time, it can also be longer than 150 microns and still pass through the same sieve. As you sprinkle that powder on your glass plate (or tile, etc) it'll tend to lay horizontally on the plate,,,, BUT,,, as you start rolling your stone on that powder, you'll also roll some of those elongated particles end-over-end, in effect creating new "high-points". Those high-points are now striking and scraping the bottom of the glazed stone randomly,, in effect re-texturizing the surface of the glazed stone. Of course, each particle ends up abrading the stone, whether they're horizontal or vertical

Now compare that "action" to flattening on a level diamond plate, where the high-spots are equal and remain constant. You'll "flatten" the glazed stone, but depending on the friability of the glazed stone, there's a good chance it'll show little improvement as far as cutting is concerned.

My head hurts !!


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 29, 2020)

I've just received my new Shapton Glass stones and some SiC 60 grit powder. I'm not sure when I'll get to try them though, since all my knives (30 or so) are either new-in-the-box or fully sharpened. The Shaptons I got today are the SG120, SG220, SG500, and SG2k. I already had the SG320, SG1k, SG4k, and SG8k and the Shapton DGLP. The DGLP is recommended for flattening the SG500 and finer stones, and NOT recommended for the SG320 or coarser. I'm also looking for a Canadian source for finer grit SiC powders,,, 120/220 grit, and 500 grit. I've also got the Atoma 400 and 1200 plates, plus the large 220 Naniwa flattening plate, so it'll be quite a while before I get around to seeing how they all play with each other.

I've also got the Norton Waterstone 4-stone set; 220, 1k, 4k, 8k and the Naniwa Aotoshi Green Brick of Joy 2k., plus my Tormek with 100/1k 10" wet-wheel and Tormek stone grader, 3M micro-abrasive sheets,,,stropping compounds and more. (Chef's Choice TriZor and Wusthof hand sharpener) plus various butcher steels and Idahone ceramic honing rods., and still more. (Various bench-grinders with an array of wheels/abrasives.

I'm gonna need a bigger kitchen.


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## M1k3 (Jun 29, 2020)

Give the stones a little lapping before use. They seem to have a weird outter layer that needs to get past. Like a crusty, waxy layer.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 29, 2020)

Will do. I did have a quick look earlier, and they seemed fine,, plenty of bite, and no trace of film or waxiness. I looked at the 120 and the 500, so I'll check the others shortly.


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## M1k3 (Jun 29, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Will do. I did have a quick look earlier, and they seemed fine,, plenty of bite, and no trace of film or waxiness. I looked at the 120 and the 500, so I'll check the others shortly.


Splash water on it. If it beads, lap it. If the water just puddles, lap it. It should sort of soak in, not just sit on top.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 29, 2020)

OK M1k3,,, I just tried the 120 and got some puddling, but no beading. I think I got a lil; careless with the amount of water,(quite a bit too much) When I see guys like Jef Jewell using splash n' go's, they're just spritzing a few small squirts to dampen the stone's surface.

Mind you, those stones are thin (5mm) and with the glass backing plate being non-permeable, I can see how even a tiny excess of water would accumulate on top..


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> OK M1k3,,, I just tried the 500 and got some puddling, but no beading. I think I got a lil; careless with the amount of water,(quite a bit too much) When I see guys like Jef Jewell using splash n' go's, they're just spritzing a few small squirts to dampen the stone's surface.
> 
> Mind you, those stones are thin (5mm) and with the glass backing plate being non-permeable, I can see how even a tiny excess of water would accumulate on top..


Did the puddling absorb into the stone slowly or spread out? Or just sit there? I honestly don't worry about the amount of water I put on them. I'll need more anyway, except for a quick touch up.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 30, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Did the puddling absorb into the stone slowly or spread out? Or just sit there? I honestly don't worry about the amount of water I put on them. I'll need more anyway, except for a quick touch up.



OK, so I made a correction above; it was the 120 I tried (now fixed above) and not the 500.

The puddling was excessive to begin with. I had tried pouring a couple of tablespoons worth out of a jug, and I overdid it. Hard to say. The water certainly wasn't 'soaking into" the stone until it disappeared,,,( I shook most of it off), nor did I expect it to completely soak in, but the stone did absorb "some" of that water. In fact, I'm drying it right now as I speak. I patted the surface dry (no rubbing/lint-free paper towel, dabbing gently), then placed it side-edge-down, leaning against something, to allow air circulation and slow-drying.

I could probably tell you precisely how much water it absorbed by first placing the dry stone,,,then the wet stone, on my digital kitchen scale. Maybe tomorrow. Bed time here.


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

You don't have to stress it. Just use it. If it feels off some, lap it. Try again.


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## kayman67 (Jun 30, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> OK M1k3,,, I just tried the 120 and got some puddling, but no beading. I think I got a lil; careless with the amount of water,(quite a bit too much) When I see guys like Jef Jewell using splash n' go's, they're just spritzing a few small squirts to dampen the stone's surface.
> 
> Mind you, those stones are thin (5mm) and with the glass backing plate being non-permeable, I can see how even a tiny excess of water would accumulate on top..



Really no such thing as being able to spray too much water. It will take care of itself if it's too much on the surface. Don't worry about it.


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 30, 2020)

I always re-surface my stones after each use, but not using a special “flatting stone”, really no need for that, just use any regular 220/240 stoneS. 

I use side for 1000, the other side for 4000. It only takes a few strokes to flatten, & resurface the whetstones back to like new condition ready for next use.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 30, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Really no such thing as being able to spray too much water. It will take care of itself if it's too much on the surface. Don't worry about it.



When I said I poured too much water, I was referring to the fact that there was too much water to allow observation of whether the stone was slowly absorbing some of that water. I was trying to answer M1k3's question about water "puddling, or beading" on the surface of the stone.


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## kayman67 (Jun 30, 2020)

Years ago I used to put a few drops and see what happens, before using the stone.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 30, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I always re-surface my stones after each use, but not using a special “flatting stone”, really no need for that, just use any regular 220/240 stoneS.
> 
> I use side for 1000, the other side for 4000. It only takes a few strokes to flatten, & resurface the whetstones back to like new condition ready for next use.



Apparently though, that's not working out so well for some of the people in this thread; in fact, it's the very premise behind the existence of the thread. Those people are saying that their coarse stones are performing like finer stones after flattening. There are obviously multiple reasons for this phenomenon.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 30, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Years ago I used to put a few drops and see what happens, before using the stone.



Yeah, that's what I should have done. Instead, I was trying to pour a bit of water from my Brita water-filter jug, and that jug has a little flap at the pouring spout. That flap sticks sometimes, and I ended up pouring a few tablespoons of water, which completely covered the stone, and overflowed onto my kitchen counter. With the stone being totally soaked, it became impossible to see if there was any water absorbing into the stone,,,,, so,,, dry the stone, and try again the next day.

That said, I really like the look and texture of that SG120. I'm looking forward to trying it. I'm also going to order the Shapton Pro 120 and 220 to see how they compare to the SG's.


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## Kawa (Jun 30, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Yeah, that's what I should have done. Instead, I was trying to pour a bit of water from my Brita water-filter jug, and that jug has a little flap at the pouring spout. That flap sticks sometimes, and I ended up pouring a few tablespoons of water, which completely covered the stone, and overflowed onto my kitchen counter. With the stone being totally soaked, it became impossible to see if there was any water absorbing into the stone,,,,, so,,, dry the stone, and try again the next day.
> 
> That said, I really like the look and texture of that SG120. I'm looking forward to trying it. I'm also going to order the Shapton Pro 120 and 220 to see how they compare to the SG's.



If you ever buy or just use a SG120, i'm very curious about your experience with it. That stone is the main reason I started this thread.
After using it on one knife, i already experienced serious smoothness.
After flattening it (with a 220 grit....  I learned a lot since I started this topic) it's about the same as my 600 naniwa chosera, which also is a bit smoother then it originally was.

Allready bought coarse SiC powder, still need to get a hardened glass plate to start using it.
I also used a 60gritt flattening stone on the SG120 this week, but haven't tried the stone since then. (have to search my friends kitchen drawers for this stone to be usefull)


I'm curious if you experience the same, or what you do to maintain this stone to keep it's coarseness.




I can allready tell you it's a completely different stone then the shapton pro220 you are willing to compare. The pro220 is a soft stone (compared to sg120), therefor loses more abrasives (do i say this right?), therefore needs more flattening and for me, it keeps it coarseness like original (with just the 220 flattening stone).


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 30, 2020)

Kawa said:


> If you ever buy or just use a SG120, i'm very curious about your experience with it. That stone is the main reason I started this thread.
> After using it on one knife, i already experienced serious smoothness.
> After flattening it (with a 220 grit....  I learned a lot since I started this topic) it's about the same as my 600 naniwa chosera, which also is a bit smoother then it originally was.
> 
> ...



I really appreciate you posting this topic Kawa; it's very interesting and it certainly makes someone think beyond generalities.

Regarding your SG120 and your 60 grit SiC,,, you can use different man-made laminates if you don't have plate-glass or a ceramic floor tile handy. A section of smooth-surface Formica might do in a pinch. Those types of man-made laminates are dead flat, but depending on which one you use, they may not be as abrasion resistant.

I promise I'll post back regarding experience with the SG120 and 220. With this Covid-19 lockdown though, it could be a while. I need to get my hands on some dull knives.


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

I have the SP120, which sounds similarly hard to SG120. I use a 20 grit plate on it. Just a a few passes on the plate and I'm back in business. 
I've tried the 120 side. It works. But the stone cuts longer from the 20 grit side.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 30, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I have the SP120, which sounds similarly hard to SG120. I use a 20 grit plate on it. Just a a few passes on the plate and I'm back in business.
> I've tried the 120 side. It works. But the stone cuts longer from the 20 grit side.



Can you tell me more about that 20 grit plate? Brand/ model etc.?


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

Big monster plate. I set it up on the side of my sink and use a sink bridge. Large Flattening Plate


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)




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## Kawa (Jun 30, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> I really appreciate you posting this topic Kawa; it's very interesting and it certainly makes someone think beyond generalities.
> 
> Regarding your SG120 and your 60 grit SiC,,, you can use different man-made laminates if you don't have plate-glass or a ceramic floor tile handy. A section of smooth-surface Formica might do in a pinch. Those types of man-made laminates are dead flat, but depending on which one you use, they may not be as abrasion resistant.
> 
> I promise I'll post back regarding experience with the SG120 and 220. With this Covid-19 lockdown though, it could be a while. I need to get my hands on some dull knives.



Thank you.
I've tried a few of the bigger hardware stores here in The Netherlands (don't know if they look the same in the USA), none of them was selling tempered glass.
I assumed I needed espesially that material, for it's flattness and hardness.

If you say a ceramic kitchen tile (the kind with a glaze on it i assume works aswell, I know for sure our hardwarestores sell them in different kinds and sizes 
In my kitchen I have the kinds that are matte. You feel (and see) a lot of structure/roughness on them, so they won't work. The impatient kid inside of me still almost tried it...twice...


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 30, 2020)

Ahhh yes, that's the JKI 2-sided large flattening plate??


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 30, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Thank you.
> I've tried a few of the bigger hardware stores here in The Netherlands (don't know if they look the same in the USA), none of them was selling tempered glass.
> I assumed I needed espesially that material, for it's flattness and hardness.
> 
> If you say a ceramic kitchen tile (the kind with a glaze on it i assume) works aswell, I know for sure our hardwarestores sell them in different kinds and sizes



Kawa, if you see someone throwing out an old glass-top coffee-table, or glass shelves, etc. just retrieve the glass from one of those units. It's most likely tempered glass.


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## Kawa (Jun 30, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I have the SP120, which sounds similarly hard to SG120. I use a 20 grit plate on it. Just a a few passes on the plate and I'm back in business.
> I've tried the 120 side. It works. But the stone cuts longer from the 20 grit side.



Thank you aswell.
I guess I learn I shouldn't be worried to use a too rough stone


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Thank you aswell.
> I guess I learn I shouldn't be worried to use a too rough stone


For low grits, there's less worry.

I view grits and approach like this:

Under 300ish is for metal removal, speed > finish/looks. A bit "Wild West", anything goes, regarding what's used.

Above 300ish-800ish is for removing previous scratches, setting up bevels/fixing minor errors. Metal removal = finish. Surface finish of stones is a little more important but nothing to fret over.

Above 1Kish is about finish. Less about metal removal. Metal removal < finish. Surface finish of stones is more important. Especially grit contamination.

Generally speaking with regards to thinning knives and the finish left behind. Everyone is a little different and prioritizes differently.


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## Kawa (Jun 30, 2020)

I always used a 220 for the really beat up knives; the ones that scream 'help me'. Lot's of scratches, but mostly lots of chippes.
220 is good for that, for me. My first stone was a Naniwa 220 superstone (220/1000 combo), which over the time got hollow. The first year i didn't know about flattening, so i didnt do that. My softest stone (the one i mention above) is hollow. Flat on a table, i see light underneath it. I think about 1mm.
I bought a Shapton 220pro as replacement, which kinda feels the same. A little more feedback and seems a little harder than the Naniwa.

And then recently I got a few knives from a friend that needed resurrection. They didn't scream at all, because they were dead. Ready for the junk yard.
I figured my 220's are fairly soft, so it's a waste to really grind a long time on such bad and cheap knives. This cheap Dutchy was afraid it ruined his stone.

I figured i needed a even more coarse stone for those kinda knives. The less time on a stone, the less wear or so..

So the SG120 came...
It's a lot harder then both of my 220's and faster cutting, so it was perfect for the job.

Since it is smoother then the 220's now, it doesn't do job I bought it for. That's why I need it to get coarse again. 100-120-160 I don't care that much, as long it is coarser then my 220's.


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

Coarse SiC, lapping plate or sandpaper is a life saver on the Shapton 120's. Without it, the stone falls flat with use.


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## Robert Lavacca (Jun 30, 2020)

Love those big jki flattening plates. For 60 bucks it’s a friggen steal. Keeps my atomas in good condition.


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## Kawa (Jul 2, 2020)

Today I got myself a plate to use the SiC on. So I got to play.

It is the coarse powder, so I used it on my SG120, Naniwa 400pro and Chosera 600. The stuff works like magic.
The SG120 got coarse again, the centre was just smooth (the corners were a little coarser since I tend to touch them less when I sharpen) and feels coarse again, the corners got even more coarse. So i have to be carefull. The centre feels just a little too smooth at this moment, but its way better then before. A huge difference.
The Naniwa400 feels way better, even a little more coarse then the original back side (which I never use), same goes for the Chosera 600.
So I guess I should have scrubbed a little longer on the SG120, and a little less on the 400 and 600, or I have to try to mix some medium powder with the coarse powder for the 400 and 600. 
I understand i have to practise with things like pressure, duration, SiC gritt etc. etc.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions in this topic. This really is huge added value to my 'knowledge'. I enjoy the fact that the more i read around here, the bigger this hobby becomes.

For any atheists out there, get the powder! It's a completely different effect then just using a flattening stone. Well worth it.


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 2, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Today I got myself a plate to use the SiC on. So I got to play.
> 
> It is the coarse powder, so I used it on my SG120, Naniwa 400pro and Chosera 600. The stuff works like magic.
> The SG120 got coarse again, the centre was just smooth (the corners were a little coarser since I tend to touch them less when I sharpen) and feels coarse again, the corners got even more coarse. So i have to be carefull. The centre feels just a little too smooth at this moment, but its way better then before. A huge difference.
> ...



That's great news Kawa,,,well done.

What grit powder did you use?

I don't think it would be a good idea to "mix" different grits of SiC powder; use the coarse grit for your very coarse stones, and get progressively finer SiC for your finishing/polishing stones. Even though SiC powders may claim to be a specific grit,,, there's actually a range of grits within that grit rating, so a 60 grit powder, may actually be more like a 60/90 grit, etc. That said, it's basically up to you what finish you want on your finer stones, and SiC has a pretty wide working range. Just remember to feel your stones carefully after flattening/conditioning, just to ensure there's no contamination of the surface.


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## kayman67 (Jul 2, 2020)

Agree. Just use them individually.


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## Kawa (Jul 2, 2020)

Im not sure what grit it is. it's Shapton lapping powder, SiC coarse









Shapton Lapping Powder / silicon carbide granules, coarse, 0502


Silicon carbide granules (coarse) to lap sharpening stones




www.knivesandtools.com





The link gets you to the product I bought.

The label doesn't state a grit size on it, not even in Japanese.


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## Kawa (Jul 2, 2020)

Ok, no mixing then


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## kayman67 (Jul 2, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Im not sure what grit it is. it's Shapton lapping powder, SiC coarse
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These were considered a bit different. Somewhat confusing. 
There are some grit ranges for every single one and for example, above 12k they recommend just the fine one alone and nothing else. Below 12k up to 5k, you can use medium and fine (coarse not recommended). And so on.


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## Kawa (Jul 2, 2020)

Yeah, I even notice some differences among sites. Some say coarse is for 120-1000, some mention 320-500. So I take that with a grain of salt 

I guess i order the medium gritt aswell, and experiment with what works best on each stone.


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 2, 2020)

One more thought Kawa,,,, when you're sharpening badly damaged edges, don't be afraid to use an axe file instead of your coarse stone,,,, or, before using your coarse stone,,, especially if your coarse stone is easily scratched or damaged. Just clamp the knife in a woodworking vise (if you have one),,, and run the file perpendicular to the blade-edge,,,, heel-to-tip,,,, one continuous stroke after another,,at even pressure. That'll remove metal the full length of the blade until any nicks disappear. 

Don't worry about mushrooming (burrs on both sides of the edge) at that point of the process,,,, you're just leveling the edge at that stage. This will work on "some" knives,,, but don't forget about finger-clearance. (knuckle clearance when using the knife) Shorter-height blades such as slicers, boning knives, etc) already have very little finger-clearance because it's not required in use. On a tall chef's knife, or especially cleavers,,, you have lots of room to work with. You can easily remove 1/4" of steel along the entire edge if need be. That said, you may have to thin that blade afterwards.

Once you've leveled the blade, use that axe file to roughly re-set the bevel evenly on both sides. Now you can go to your coarse stone without fear of gouging the stone with jagged edges on the damaged knife/cleaver. This is something that can happen frequently with cleavers, especially if someone uses a thin vegetable cleaver incorrectly, and tries to cut through bone, etc.(blade splits)


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## kayman67 (Jul 2, 2020)

Some might put the last possible grit included, some not. 
But coarse it's definitely from 120.


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