# What is it with wa handle makers?



## Dave Martell

With so many new wa handle makers coming on the scene there seems to be apparent trends emerging. 

I see a ton of what I like to call "High End Broom Handles". These are handles made of great materials, great construction and execution but lack the subtle nuances that make a custom wa handle more than just a fancy stick to rest your digits on. They're mostly seen too thick, not tapered, or too thin, or tapered too much. Basically these handles are made by a skilled wood worker who has no clue what-so-ever what is expected of a high end kitchen knife. Someone jumped into the deep end before wading the shallows.

The other trend I see is what I call the "Everything But the Kitchen Sink Handle". These handles can be seen from low to high end in both materials used and skill level of work performed. Sometimes they're shaped better than a "Broom Handle" but the maker fails when he throws in ugly obnoxious materials as spacers, butt caps, ferrules, more spacers, and more spacers, and even more spacers, etc. This maker appears to have poor taste in styling, he has obviously no ability to control himself.

I'm just sharing my :my2cents: take it for what it's worth.


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## EdipisReks

I think the custom handle market is in some ways similar to field knife makers who start making kitchen knives: some get it, many don't.


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## Dave Martell

BTW, I'm not specifically speaking about anyone, and not at all referring to any handle makers here at KKF. I surf the web every day looking for kitchen knife stuff and see a lot of different things popping up.


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## WildBoar

People have different tastes, too. Some like lots of different materials/ contrasts, and some don't. As far as geometry goes, I've seen a big variation just between custom kitchen knife makers, so it's no surprise to see the new handle makers having simlar variations. And frankly some handles I've felt were way too thick or way too thin work great for some other users. Over time there will likely be convergence as the makers get feedback, but I suspect some will be known as handle makers for people with big hands, small hands, etc.

And new handle makers who make handles that really stink will either learn how to improve them quickly, or they will no longer have an audience.

As someone who has seen countless handles from Stefen, it is understandable you could get frustrated, especially since some may charge just as much or more then he does, yet the handles are not as comfortable or will not last as long.


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## chefcomesback

Forgive me if my analogy is too vague but I think the handle is like a nice handmade pizza , there can not be more than 4 things on it, not a big fan of too much bling or too much on it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## apicius9

Dave, not sure i to which category the makers fit who make Hello Kitty handles, could you please clarify? 

Other than that, not sure I want to say much, except that the makers have to start somewhere and hopefully develop over time. And that it made me think when I saw handles in a style that I charge $150 for offered in Japan for $400+, and that didn't even include any expensive material... 

Stefan


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## NO ChoP!

I fit into the I know what a great handle looks like, as I've owned a few from the greats, but my skill level isn't to where I can produce the same perfection. I hope to someday get to the point where what I envision initially is equal to the end result. They say practice makes perfect...right now I'm having fun.


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## ecchef

That's a tough call when referring to the aesthetic qualities; everybody has their own personal likes & dislikes. Functionality can have somewhat more defined parameters, but even then it comes down to personal preference. 
Pretty sure a wa handle that tapers _down_ from front to back won't have to many admirers. But then again, people used to buy "Earth Shoes". :dontknow:

I think Dave is commenting from a very pure, 'Golden Ratio' point of view. I can understand and appreciate that. Some people like Vermeer, some Pollock.

BTW...Stefan, Hello Kitty handle is the ****!!! :thumbsup:


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## icanhaschzbrgr

Dave Martell said:


> I see a ton of what I like to call "High End Broom Handles". These are handles made of great materials, great construction and execution but lack the subtle nuances that make a custom wa handle more than just a fancy stick to rest your digits on. They're mostly seen too thick, not tapered, or too thin, or tapered too much. Basically these handles are made by a skilled wood worker who has no clue what-so-ever what is expected of a high end kitchen knife. Someone jumped into the deep end before wading the shallows.



That's like everything else in life. Nuances  that's what distinguishes amateurs from professionals. In order to see those nuances you'd need to get first hand experience. In order to master those nuances you'd need way more experience. So it's not surprising to see more and more makers trying their skills in WA handles. Demand creates supply. They do "jumping into the deep end before wading the shallows" but that's quite expectable :scratchhead:

As for the people with bad taste hm we do exist, sorry


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## mt_mac

In some regards I agree but mainly just that I hope hack jobs don't cut into good quality makers business. But I really enjoy the variety that is starting to come to the market. I am one who really doesn't like dark ferules with a plain light wood handles. I don't like anything too crazy but I think a great knife deserves a nice looking handle.


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## Lefty

So far, the only "multi-spacer" makers who have done it really nicely, in my opinion, are Heath and Chris A. Their look is very similar, in many respects. 

Dave, I agree with you on this one, 100%. Many can try, but it's hard to beat the simplicity and shaping of a DT Wa handle, or that of our custom handle makers here, if you want something a bit more "custom".


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## Bill13

chefcomesback said:


> Forgive me if my analogy is too vague but I think the handle is like a nice handmade pizza , there can not be more than 4 things on it, not a big fan of too much bling or too much on it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Great analogy! I think it's easier to judge shapes because there are really only a few basic shapes that people make variations of.

Materials usage is a lot tougher. I personally hate liners, give me 2 types of wood for contrast and maybe a nickel spacer. The worst offender in the knife world in my mind is Carter (sorry Murray!). Great knives, great videos too, but no Corian in my handle please:biggrin:. Maybe it has to do with the fact that in Japan no matter how nice/expensive the blade it's going to get a buffalo horn ferrule and Ho wood or a burnt Chestnut handle. He has gotten better recently.


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## Dave Martell

Western handle makers can do it way wrong too...I've been guilty of this. I mentioned wa handles as the main thing because that's what I see more of being whacked.


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## Dave Martell

I've had two PM's asking me for examples of bad handles. While I'd love to discuss some of the handles I think are gross mistakes I'd be just making fun of people to point them out. I do, however, realize that it'd be helpful to those learning to make them or for potential customers to see some bad examples for comparison purposes, so check out some other forums, Bladeforums (Kitchen Cutlery section), CKTG forums (Knife & Handle Makers section), KnifeDogs (Kitchen Corner section), & JerzeeDevil (Hell's Kitchen section) for some great examples.


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## stevenStefano

I sorta agree with you in that I've seen a lot of handles (not here) that just look wrong and it's hard to put your finger on it, but they just don't look right at all. Makes me appreciate the time and effort that goes into the good ones to make them perfect. I think it shows the difference between those who have actually had first hand experience of the good ones and those who just see pictures and think they can do it. Like I say, I'm not talking about anyone here.


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## Dave Martell

Wow, I'm getting PM's that aren't so pleasant, seems like I upset some folks with this thread. I'll answer those PM's individually but let me address them here as well.

First off I understand the learning curve that a maker must go through and the varying tastes people have, I've considered all that when I posted. What I'm referring to are the blatant things like a giant blocky handle that belongs on a 270 deba found on a 180mm santoku or a multi-material handle that's so heavy that you'd never be able to feel the blade. These are blatant mistakes that should be obvious.

Here a few examples....please.....no names discussed here folks!!!


Below is an example of a "Broom Handle"...









Here is an example of an "Everything But the Kitchen Sink"...20 piece handle = Desert Ironwood handle,M3 White aluminum Ferrule with Nickel Silver, M3 cobalt and M3 white aluminum spacers! Great construction but how handle heavy is this thing?







More "Everything But the Kitchen Sink"....Black paper Micarta end cap to the ferrule, 2 layers of Tooth scales, 1/8" blue G10, more Tooth and G10, Black Paper Micarta end to the ferrule, then Blue Burl!?!






BTW, the above examples are not the worst by far. If I went searching I'd find a ton of really stomach wrenching work to show. These are just quickly found examples that hopefully illustrate what I'm referring to.


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## Timthebeaver

I do not get gawdy, overcomplicated handles at all. Those 3 handles above are awful, the last one is shockingly bad.

Burnt chestnut with a black buffalo horn ferrule and ho with a white ferrule are my favourites.


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## icanhaschzbrgr

Dave there must be such handles. I mean good and bad are relative things and without bad handles you can't have good ones. So let there be more different handles. Yes with multi-quadriple-i-dont-know-who's-tooth and unicorn horn ferrules.

Actually I'd post those examples into separate thread called something like "In the wild"


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## Burl Source

I am a little bit spoiled. The wa handles on my knives have been by Mike Henry, Butch Harner and Mario.
My personal taste has been different than the norm. I like a ferrule, contrasting body and a thin end cap to match the ferrule. 
As for colors and materials I look at it like clothing. What goes together and what clashes. Spacers I look at like a belt. Something thin to break things up, not thick like a cumberbun.

As for shape. I like the tapered octagon like Mike H does. The tapered D handle with a ridge that Mario did for me is nice as well. Something I do not see happening is a tapered oval without the ridge. I have a store bought knife with a handle like that. (like the handle but hate the knife)


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## Dave Martell

I like the what works and what doesn't input. That's one of the things I hoped to get with this thread.


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## Asteger

A knife is about the blade and handles are additional and should complement, not dominate. Many custom handles are tacky because they are, well, tacky. Knives are tools and if nickel spacers, etc, were practical and necessary then there'd be a greater tradition of using them, but there isn't. Too much attention is paid to handles IMO.


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## ecchef

So, a quick impromptu wa handle poll :

What is the ideal taper (ratio, degrees, or difference in mm)?
What is the ideal ratio between ferrule and body material?
Ferrule/body spacer...Y or N?
End cap...Y or N?

I usually tend toward a couple of mm max difference between nose & tail; like a 3 piece handle, so spacer _or_ end cap; don't like overly long or short ferrules.


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## greasedbullet

So first off Ecchef I don't think this survey will be very successful. As far as dimensions go you should probably ask for the dimensions of everyone's' "perfect handle" and average them. So that being said here are my answers:

What is the ideal taper (ratio, degrees, or difference in mm)? Depends on the knife.
What is the ideal ratio between ferrule and body material? Depends on what the rest of the handle is composed of. Is there an end cap or middle spacer?
Ferrule/body spacer...Y or N? I like body spacers and ferrules, but it depends on the woods involved etc.
End cap...Y or N? I prefer them only on sujis and yanagis


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## Keith Sinclair

The Japanese have a term Shibui an aestheic of beauty in simplicity.Of all pre-industrial cultures nobody did it quite like Japan.

Of coarse Hello Kitty comes fr. Japan too another side of their culture.


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## brainsausage

I have big mitts so I prefer big handles. I have a full size burnt chestnut gyuto handle on my 190 Burke Catcheside which feels great to me. It would probabably feel awkward to others:dontknow:


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## Lucretia

I have little mitts and prefer little handles.


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## panda

If a custom handle is hideous, that's entirely on the customer as that's what they asked for, not the makers fault people want ugly sh*t

I have small hands but prefer larger handles, the pressure is distributed more surface area so.more comfort. Not a fan of strong taper but subtle at the ferrule is nice.


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## chefpaulm

IMHO you really need both. You can have a great knife and every time you pick it up you hate the way it feels in the hand because the handle is too wide or too small etc. you will find you wont be picking up that knife or sell it out right. Case in point, I like Hattori knives (I have several) their vg 10 works well enough and the price point is good for what you get. I picked up the gyuto 240 an all VG 10 JCK. Blade is great, good steel but that handle for my size 11 hands is too big and too fat. It turns me off big time. Hench I dont it much. For me the handle is a major turn off. I control my knife with thumb and first two fingers. Like a fencing foil. Big fat handles dont cut it!


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## CoqaVin

I am not big on western handles but Randy's HHH in AEB-L is the most comfortable handle ive ever come in contact with


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## chefpaulm

I couldn't agree more! 
Best handles I ever had on a western style knife.


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## ChefCosta

People will always disagree about aesthetics. That's why it is fun. Shape of handle for me is a personal thing. If everyone had identical hands then it would make sense to talk about an ideal shape. I encourage my cooks to hold the knife in their hand before buying. If you can forgive a Harry Potter reference I believe that the wand chooses the wizard. I have big hands like brainsausage and like larger than normal handles.


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## daddy yo yo

apicius9 said:


> not sure i to which category the makers fit who make Hello Kitty handles, could you please clarify


"global heroes" !!! :tongue:


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## Dave Martell

After re-reading this thread I believe that I must've been in a bad mood when I started it, I sound so crabby. Well I never meant to insult anyone and I'm sorry if that's how I came across. Yes we all have different preferences and that's one of the things that make this world interesting. I'm sure lots of things that I like others don't.


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## eshua

Looking at a knife sale flyer from Yamasho, (one of our vendors). 

240 Suisin inox honyaki yanagi w/ standard handle = 300$ 
240 Suisin inox honyaki yanagi w/ ebony handle = $600

How is that a reasonable upcharge?


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## ecchef

T'aint. Not in my book, anyway.


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## Erilyn75

chefpaulm said:


> IMHO you really need both. You can have a great knife and every time you pick it up you hate the way it feels in the hand because the handle is too wide or too small etc. you will find you wont be picking up that knife or sell it out right.



+1

Personally I dislike octagon handles and much prefer oval. Since I have small hands, a 5" handle is the perfect length for me and feels much more comfortable. Western ones I'm not sure since they mostly come with the same factory handles as any other western. I do like the fish design (I think that's what it's called?) but it's purely based on the look and not feel as I've never held one.


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## Keith Sinclair

CoqaVin said:


> I am not big on western handles but Randy's HHH in AEB-L is the most comfortable handle ive ever come in contact with



Agree,I have wide hands most Japanese westerns are too small.Randy's with a pinch grip is just right.He also makes some beautiful handles out of exiotic materials.

I also like Stepans longer Wa- Handles.I find his comfortable too.Mine were used at work so no metal pieces or spacers etc.Simple strong handles.


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## icanhaschzbrgr

keithsaltydog said:


> Agree,I have wide hands most Japanese westerns are too small.Randy's with a pinch grip is just right.He also makes some beautiful handles out of exiotic materials.
> 
> I also like Stepans longer Wa- Handles.I find his comfortable too.Mine were used at work so no metal pieces or spacers etc.Simple strong handles.



Have you tried new western style by Marko? They a tad big for my small hands but should be super comfortable for anyone with normal/large hands.


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## Marko Tsourkan

I have come to a conclusion that oversize handles are good people with any size hands, as they allow less strain on your hands and a little more substance to hold to as one pinch grips. Knives that one holds by handle (suji, petty, etc), handle size can stay medium.


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## mhlee

Marko Tsourkan said:


> I have come to a conclusion that oversize handles are good people with any size hands, as they allow less strain on your hands and a little more substance to hold to as one pinch grips. Knives that one holds by handle (suji, petty, etc), handle size can stay medium.



The problem with larger handles is that you're limited to certain grips or forcing people to use certain grips. Using a lighter grip may be better for a pinch grip, but there are other cuts that may require a stronger grip, such as butchering. So, by doing so, you're eliminating the usefulness of a knife for multiple tasks, or reducing the effectiveness of a knife for a particular purpose because of the handle.


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## dfurry

This thread may be controversial to some but as a noob I find it very helpful.

I have a set of stainless blades being forged by Takeshi Saji and Hiroom Itou.

The handles will be custom made by members on this forum.

The Saji blades will have Wa handles and the Itou blades will have Western handles.

I'm wondering if anyone sees value in Wa handles on some profiles and Western handles on other profiles?

Off topic a bit but I'm interested in thoughts of others ....


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