# Need new stones for reprofiling and thinning



## AaronE (Apr 13, 2016)

So I bought an Old Hickory knife on eBay for $10 and it needs some work (which is good since I bought it for practice purposes). There's a 2-3" long low spot on the edge, right around the start of the belly about halfway up the blade. So I'll have to remove metal all the way to the tip of the knife, then thin substantially behind the edge. 

I currently only have 1000 and 6000 king stones. Is there one single stone that would take care of the repairing and the thinning, that I could also use as a general purpose coarse grit stone, and that could go straight to the 1000? Or do I need to get one extremely low grit stone (220 or so) and then a more medium-corase stone (500-800)? 

This will be my first time doing anything like this so any additional advice on technique would be much appreciated as well!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 13, 2016)

Stones? Here are a couple:
King 300 (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...oduct_info&cPath=335_405_408&products_id=1669)
JNS 300 Matukusuyama (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-300-matukusuyama/)

An Atoma 400 is also a possibility.

As far as technique is concerned, check your work often, and use a marker to let you see what you are doing. A wide one like the Sharpie Magnum (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0005KC7A6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) or get a can of Dykem layout fluid (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00065TO1A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20).


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## Steampunk (Apr 14, 2016)

For major repair work on softer steels - like your Old Hickory - I genuinely prefer diamond plates... They make it much easier to obtain precise results, as they are flat, cut fast, don't dish, and don't produce any slurry. It makes it easier to see and feel where you are thinning (You can easily pick out the high and low spots, as there is no mud to fill them in.), and also easier to create a consistent edge bevel when reprofiling or bread-knifing to change the angle or shape of the edge. I'd get a 300-400 grit diamond plate from a decent manufacturer: Atoma, DMT, or iWood. A 1K stone King should pick up after this okay on soft steel.

For harder Japanese knives, though, it may or may not be a different story... I still sometimes will use plates for extreme thinning on wide bevel knives for the reasons listed above, but for mild thinning and definitely for edge bevel work, I prefer stones over plates. Stones are less likely to cause stress fracturing, on thin, hard edges, leave shallower scratches that are easier to refine, and the harder the steel gets the more awful diamond plates feel. For refining diamond plate scratches in the rare instances I use them on J-Knives, I also use faster cutting stones than a 1K King. 

To date, I haven't come across a coarse stone that I love for thinning and repair, but if you're repairing carbon knives the Shapton 320 Pro isn't as terrible as some coarse stones. On stainless, the Shapton struggles, though, and I prefer the JNS 300 Matukusuyama listed above for anything with chromium in the alloy. Both are hard stones that resist dishing pretty well, and will cut acceptably crisp bevels. 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## AaronE (Apr 14, 2016)

Thanks for the responses! So I'm on a bit of a budget, and I'd like to keep this relatively cheap. I know I'll probably eventually be purchasing a diamond flattening stone, but I'm hoping to put that off a bit (when I feel like my skills justify some higher-end stones). I know it would take longer, but if one of those 300 grit stones will get the job done, and allow me to move straight to the 1000, that may be the way to go.


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## Steampunk (Apr 14, 2016)

If you don't already have a method to flatten your stones, than definitely get the diamond plate! Serious repairs put a huge amount of wear on stones, and by the time you're done thinning or re-profiling your stones might not be in any shape to put a usable edge on the knife. The plate will do the grunt-work without dishing, and will also have the side benefit of being able to flatten your stones. 

If you're on a budget, look at automotive wet/dry sandpaper stuck to glass or marble with a suitable adhesive as an alternative to coarse stones/plates for thinning work (Less so for reprofiling, where you'll be grinding edge-leading, or bread-knifing the blade adjust the profile.). It won't last as anywhere near as long as a plate and isn't quite as versatile, but doesn't dish, and it is fairly inexpensive to pick up a couple packages of decent PSA-backed wet/dry sandpaper in a variety of grits along with a piece of sheet glass. 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## AaronE (Apr 14, 2016)

I've got a pink ceramic flattening stone at the moment. I know those eventually wear down and need flattening though, so I know I'll be investing in a diamond plate sooner or later. So I'll think about stretching the budget maybe. 

Another question- if I do end up going with the 300 grit stone, and using the bread-knifing technique on the side of the stone (which is how I've seen it described in other threads), do I still soak the stone, or is this done on a dry stone?


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## Steampunk (Apr 14, 2016)

AaronE said:


> Another question- if I do end up going with the 300 grit stone, and using the bread-knifing technique on the side of the stone (which is how I've seen it described in other threads), do I still soak the stone, or is this done on a dry stone?



Both of the stones I recommended are splash & go; no soaking necessary, just wet and go... If you were using a coarse soaking stone, than yes, I would soak it as you normally would. The JNS has lacquered sides, so if breadknifing you'd have to use the top of the stone. Shipping is also expensive from JNS unless you're willing to splash out and buy ~$150's worth... Then it's free.  Didn't know what your situation was like. The Shapton works well on carbon, but on stainless it glazes really quickly and the 1K actually cuts SS faster at that point. 

I know that you're gravitating towards stones, but seriously, even a cheap plate (A coarse DMT Dia-Sharp is only about $50-55 if you shop around; a Chinese iWood knock-off is about $25-35. That's less than a stone.) is going to be lower maintenance and more effective for both thinning and reprofiling work than any of the stones you could buy. If you had a bigger budget, I would say get a ~300 grit stone and a ~150 grit plate to give you some more options, but if you can only pick one an inexpensive 300-400 plate will put you in a much better position for establishing good geometry and crisp bevels than just a 300-400 grit stone would.

Here's some tips on how to tackle the Old Hickory... Start by bread knifing the edge to flatten any holes in the profile, cut in a new edge bevel (Don't worry about deburring. Just get an even 50/50 bevel from tip to heel.), put sharpie on the edge to give you a clear idea of your thinning progress, lay the blade flat on the stone, lay your fingertips on the blade with your first knuckle resting just behind the edge, and then press down so that the blade rocks to settle on the bottom of the convex. Now you're ready to cut in your first thinning bevel. Work evenly along the blade, working down any high-spots so that the width of the edge bevel is consistent. Make your first thinning bevel flat (Again, the plate is indispensable here.), and then introduce some convexity with your 1K and 6K stones by moving your pressure up from the edge to higher on the blade. 

On wide bevel's the pressure points are a bit different, and your convexity not as extreme, but this is a good way to start fixing and thinning inexpensive western knives. 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## AaronE (Apr 14, 2016)

Man, thanks so much for your responses. Extremely generous and incredibly helpful!

I think I will take your advice and go with a lower grit diamond plate, and a coarse stone. Is this the DMT plate you were referring to? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001WP1L0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

As for a coarse stone, I would like one that's useful on carbon and stainless. Most of my knives are carbon, but I have some old stainless knives that I plan on practicing on as well. 
The JNS is sold out and, and you mentioned, expensive to ship. The King is really affordable, but I'm wondering how it compares to the JKI 400 or Beston 500? Would those stones offer me better performance or more versatility? If so, it might be worth the investment.


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## Matus (Apr 15, 2016)

I was told that bester 220 is about the best in that grit. I am about to use mine for the first time - I am finishing one knife on Atoma 140. So try the Bester and if that is not enough go for the Atoma 140. DMT plates are supposed to last much shorter than Atoma, but I do not have personal experience.

If you are looking for a great coarse stone, than have a look at JNS 300 - that think dishes nearly zero, but cuts really well for its grit.


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## Lars (Apr 15, 2016)

Matus said:


> I was told that bester 220 is about the best in that grit. I am about to use mine for the first time



Please let us know how it goes, thanks..

Lars


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## _PixelNinja (Apr 15, 2016)

Matus said:


> I was told that bester 220 is about the best in that grit. I am about to use mine for the first time [...]


Same as Lars  I would be very interested in your experience with the Bester 220.


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## Matus (Apr 15, 2016)

_PixelNinja said:


> Same as Lars  I would be very interested in your experience with the Bester 220.



Will do - I should get my hands on it this weekend. I will then also share a simple idea on how to get a better finish with Atoma 140 before moving to stones (probably not a break-through, but I seem to be able to get a finish that reminds that of a belt sander, rather than a mess of scratches). I am curios myself how will the Bester compare to JNS 300. I would compare it to Gesshin 400, but that one is on a road trip with some friends


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## _PixelNinja (Apr 15, 2016)

Thanks Matus : )


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## spoiledbroth (Apr 15, 2016)

The bester 220 is the same as Imanishi pink brick right ?


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## Steampunk (Apr 15, 2016)

AaronE said:


> Man, thanks so much for your responses. Extremely generous and incredibly helpful!
> 
> I think I will take your advice and go with a lower grit diamond plate, and a coarse stone. Is this the DMT plate you were referring to? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001WP1L0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> ...



Yes, the 325 mesh DMT Dia-Sharp D8C is the one I was talking about... As Matus said, DMT's aren't as durable as Atoma's, but I've sharpened western knives and woodworking tools on mine hundreds if not thousands of times before wearing them out, so I wouldn't worry about it too much for now. If you only wanted to get one thing right now, I would get this plate.

If you're going for both a plate and a stone, you'll want to go for something like the iWood 150 (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=852) or spring for the Atoma 140 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BN32EXY?keywords=atoma%20400&qid=1458092542&ref_=sr_1_2&s=instant-video&sr=8-2), and then get a coarse stone in the 300-400 grit range. This way you can reach lower if needed for serious work, and your plate can also flatten your coarse stone without wearing itself out. 

As I said, I've yet to find a great coarse stone... Most are very porous and require lots of annoying splashing; they're either too hard and don't cut right, or too soft and dish all over the place making more messes than they fix. There are times that my JNS 800, Shapton Pro 1K, and even my Gesshin 2K run rings around my coarse stones, and there are times that they don't. 

For Japanese carbon and western stainless, I would err maybe on the softer side for your coarse stone; especially since you're getting the plate to go with it. That way you won't be short of cutting speed. Something like maybe an Imanishi 400 or Suehiro Cerax 320; I haven't tried the Suehiro, but have read that it's a decent stone for the money, and either can be had for <$50. 

You'll probably run about $100-120 getting both a coarse stone and a plate together; a little over $150 if you decide to go premium, and get the Atoma 140 along with something like the Gesshin 400S (Which is what I want to try next.). 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Matus (Apr 15, 2016)

There is one more steal eating option - 3M Flexible Diamond Whetstone 6220J, 8 in x 3 in M74 Micron. This came as a recommendation from Jon when I asked about his advice. The Atoma 140 was the second best choice. I went with Atoma 140 as the 3M diamond stones in full size are not available in EU and are only sold in 3-per-pack for about $240 so I decided to get them if the Atoma would not last long enough.

For now I have put about 6 hours of grinding mono-steel HRC61 O1 blade and the Atoma still cuts. I have some 30 minutes of work left there and will move to Bester 220 and after that to wet sending paper.

I would have ordered the Gesshin 220, but since it was not economical to order a single stone from US Jon advised me to get the Bester 220.

I do not know how the Bester compares to Imanishi pink brick, but it could be the same stones. My understanding is that there are not that many quality stone makers and one maker makes stones for different Brands, sometimes the stones will be the same, sometimes similar, sometimes unique to one Brand.


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## Nife (Apr 15, 2016)

I would like to get the JNS 300 Matukusuyama stone from JNS. I hope it comes back in stock soon. I live in the U.S. so I would need to order two stones to qualify for free shipping. It sounds like it is splash and go, cuts fast, and dishes slowly.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 15, 2016)

Nife said:


> I would like to get the JNS 300 Matukusuyama stone from JNS. I hope it comes back in stock soon. I live in the U.S. so I would need to order two stones to qualify for free shipping. It sounds like it is splash and go, cuts fast, and dishes slowly.



I just looked and it's back in stock: http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-300-matukusuyama/


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## _PixelNinja (Apr 16, 2016)

Just as an FYI: the stone pictured on Maksim's site has not been updated and is showing the old JNS 300. The stone you will receive is lacquered :


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## AaronE (Apr 16, 2016)

Dang, I'd be tempted to pick one of those up along with a diamond plate to get free shipping, but the Atoma 140 is $120 oN JNS


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## ecchef (Apr 16, 2016)

I don't do a lot of thinning, but I use a Naniwa Superstone 220 when I have to. Dishes like crazy but makes lots of mud and cuts fast. 
I'd like to check out those 3M flexible stones.


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## mqphoto (Apr 16, 2016)

How about shapton glass 120 grit? I do all my thinning on it


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## AaronE (Apr 18, 2016)

So I'm going to go with the Atoma 140, and while I'd love to try either the JNS 300 or Gesshin 400, it just doesn't make sense without being able to get free shipping on either. So now I'm trying to decide between the Imanishi 400 and the King 300. Anyone have thoughts on these? I'd like a stone that will clean the 140 scratches relatively well and could go straight to a 1000. It would be nice if it could handle minor thinning tasks and still be a good starting point for normal bevel setting.


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## Matus (Apr 18, 2016)

OK, here I am with my first impressions as promised.

*Atoma 140*

The blade I am working on is monosteel 01 at HRC 60-61. It is cca 165 mm long and has a shape of taller petty. I ground the blade way too thick prior heat treat and had to thin it considerably - about *0.5 mm* over most surface of the blade. This job took me about *6 hours* (in several sessions as one could guess) on Atoma 140. During the thinning I would slowly move (100 sharpening movements at one position) along the blade at constant distance from the edge from the heel to the tip, then repeat the same on the other side of the blade and at different distances from the edge. This would be repeated MANY times until the blade had approximately the thickness I was going for. This would leave the blade showing scratches at around 45deg relative to the edge AND, more importantly - having long 'stripes' that would reflect the way I was moving from the heel to the tip. There would be slight angle differences between these 'stripes', so that one could feel slight 'shoulders' when running your fingers from the spine to the edge.

To remedy that, I would now grind the blade such that the scratch pattern would be perpendicular to the cutting edge (or spine) and as I was moving the blade on the Atoma I would 'rock' it slightly - only as much so that during one sharpening stroke the whole width of the blade would have contact with the Atoma. This way I managed to completely remove the shoulders and got surprisingly homogeneous scratch pattern on the blade. Once that was done I have moved to the Bester 220 (pink brick) which I soaked thoroughly prior to use.

On the Bester I would rock the blade from the beginning (I wanted to keep that nice convex grind I got on the Atoma), but at the same time I would hold the knife such that the scratch pattern would again be about 45 deg. relative to the edge. This would allow me to see, whether I have removed all the scratches. It took me a while to adjust as the axis of the rocking motion (parallel to the spine of the knife, of course) would be under 45 deg. angle with the sharpening strokes, but it can be done. It took me about 1 hour to get the Atoma scratches removed.

BTW - the Atoma still cuts 

*Bester 220*

Yes - it is muddy, but it is not that bad. I actually find it less muddy and less dishing than my Gesshin 400 (I could not make a side-by-side comparison). It is fast and while I did not take out the JNS 300, I would say it is faster - the mud makes a difference with you have large area of the contact surface. If I were sharpening the edge I would surely take the JNS 300 as I would not want to risk to cut the stone, but to remove scratches from the Atoma 140 I would not want to go to finer grit than this Bester.

The dishing - I expected worse. I did try to use the whole surface, but it was not always possible. After 1 hour of work I do not see the need to flatten the stone - that is definitely not bad!

Next steps:

If my Gesshin 400 were around, I would do the next step with it, but I will now turn to wet sanding paper up to grid 400 - 800 (I will decide when to stop as I will go up). Once the blade will be finished I will have to make some sort of WA handle. Then I will proceed to final sharpening which I plan to make with JNS 300, Gesshin 2000, Gesshin Synthetic Natural.

Than my very first kitchen knife will be ready 

Hope this helps


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## Lars (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks, Matus!

Lars


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## _PixelNinja (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback Matus.


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## El Pescador (Apr 19, 2016)

If you are planning on doing thinning more than one knife I would invest in a cheap 1" x 42" grinder ( I know, HERESY!!!) from home depot or the like. Once the magic has worn off thinning a knife (it took me one time), you will really appreciate having the grinder. what takes hours with the stones, takes minutes with a grinder and a bucket of water.

Pesky


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## spoiledbroth (Apr 20, 2016)

Matus said:


> There is one more steal eating option - 3M Flexible Diamond Whetstone 6220J, 8 in x 3 in M74 Micron. This came as a recommendation from Jon when I asked about his advice. The Atoma 140 was the second best choice. I went with Atoma 140 as the 3M diamond stones in full size are not available in EU and are only sold in 3-per-pack for about $240 so I decided to get them if the Atoma would not last long enough.
> 
> For now I have put about 6 hours of grinding mono-steel HRC61 O1 blade and the Atoma still cuts. I have some 30 minutes of work left there and will move to Bester 220 and after that to wet sending paper.
> 
> ...


i only mentioned the Imanishi because I thought bester was made by the same company a number of vendors list them together


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## Nife (Apr 20, 2016)

"The self-seeking man who is looking after his personal comforts and leading a lazy life- there is no room for him even in hell" - Narendranath Dutta

In my opinion, much of what people say is BS, but I hope that I don't end up in Hell.


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## Matus (Apr 20, 2016)

Nife said:


> "The self-seeking man who is looking after his personal comforts and leading a lazy life- there is no room for him even in hell" - Narendranath Dutta
> 
> In my opinion, much of what people say is BS, but I hope that I don't end up in Hell.



Did I miss something?


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## Nife (Apr 20, 2016)

"Did I miss something?" 

Matus, sorry that this is way off topic. In a pompous and pedantic manner, Narendranath Dutta's quote indicates that people who look after their personal comforts and lead a lazy life, are the most despicable human beings. Apparently this is a famous quote. I disagree with Mr. Dutta's opinion

I am generally a "self-seeking man who is looking after his personal comforts and leading a (relatively) lazy life. Since Hell is of unlimited space and is the worst place in the universe, logically there is actually room for more members.

I don't want to go to hell or the worst place in the universe after I die.


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## Matus (Apr 21, 2016)

Nife said:


> "Did I miss something?"
> 
> Matus, sorry that this is way off topic. In a pompous and pedantic manner, Narendranath Dutta's quote indicates that people who look after their personal comforts and lead a lazy life, are the most despicable human beings. Apparently this is a famous quote. I disagree with Mr. Dutta's opinion
> 
> ...



I mean I do not understand how your comment relates to the posts in this thread.


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## AaronE (Apr 21, 2016)

Woah, it got heavy in here! I ordered the Atoma 140 and Imanishi 400, since it seems like I'll get more general purpose use out of the 400. I'll let you guys know how it goes! (Which actually means I'll probably just be asking a million questions about how to use the damn thing.)


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## Matus (Apr 21, 2016)

I will be curios to know whether the 400 will be fast enough to take out the Atoma 140 scratches in reasonable time. Keep us posted


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## youkinorn (Apr 21, 2016)

Is there any rule to how often you all drop down to stones <1000 for thinning/heavier maintenance in relation to just bringing back an edge? I know it's different for single-bevels, but just wondering how different people go about deciding when it's time.


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## Nife (Apr 21, 2016)

Sorry Matus, as a very amateur Philosopher and humorist, I was responding to the quote underneath "spoiledbroth's" logo. Perhaps my three posts on this thread should be deleted.


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## Matus (Apr 21, 2016)

Nife said:


> Sorry Matus, as a very amateur Philosopher and humorist, I was responding to the quote underneath "spoiledbroth's" logo. Perhaps my three posts on this thread should be deleted.



Oh, not need to apologise, I was reading and answering in a hurry and did not give myself a chance to try to understand. I see no need to delete anything. We have way too few philosopher-humorists around here - we just need to widen our horizons


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## andur (Apr 21, 2016)

I do a lot of my thinning on my 500 Shapton glass which seems faster than my 320 Shapton glass. Not sure why but I feel my 320 clogs up faster? The Shapton glass 500 is a very very nice stone. They also make the 500 as a double thickness one!


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## Nife (Apr 21, 2016)

I have read less than 100 threads, but Matus, your posts are outstanding and very informative. Thanks.


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