# which zwilling j a henckel knives?



## mjbakos

I have never owned a set of good kitchen knives. My brother recently bought a set of zwilling j a henckels twin four star 2 knives and he absolutely loves them. I have been looking at the same knives or the less expensive four star. Looks to me that the only difference is the stainless end cap on the handle. Trying to save some $, so is there a big difference between these two sets or not? Like I said, I am very new to this and am unable to just spend a lot. Maybe a smaller set, and then just add a knife here and there as I save. Any pointers?


----------



## jm2hill

how much is the total you are looking to spend for the two knives? 

there may and usually is better options out there than the henckels so long as your not set on the henckels brand.


----------



## so_sleepy

Before the gang tries to convince you to buy something else, I'll answer your question. There is no difference in the blade or cutting performance between the Henckels Four Star and Four Star 2.


----------



## tk59

I have the four star which I was very happy with until I came to this forum. These knives are built with an unskilled, relatively careless consumer in mind. The steel is on the soft side which is good for steeling and minimizing damage from dings, and twisting action. They are also exceptionally stain resistant and dishwasher "safe." The trade-off is these knives are not built to hold a great edge very long, nor are they built to give excellent cutting performance. If you are interested in cutting performance, German production knives are decent at best.


----------



## ThEoRy

Is it ok to talk him into buying something else yet? 

Compared to the knives we rave about over here your typical German blade henkels, whustof, messermeister etc are about a 2 or 3 on a 1-10 scale.

That being said if you are dead set on the henkels brand, they do have a Japanese line called Miyabi. These are pretty good from what I hear and are considered a good first entry into the world of Japanese knives.


----------



## Eamon Burke

:ntmy:

Ok I'll break the decorum here.

I find those knives appalling, because the qualities that make a knife worth ANY amount of money are:
1. Geometry
2. Heat Treat
3. Edge quality(strictly sharpening job)
4. Design
5. Comfort
6. Aesthetics

I've never seen a single knife from Henckels' name brand lines that provides a single one of those points in any quantity worth noting. It may seem snooty, or petulant, but considering they are a gigantic global company and producing them in state-of-the-art factories with highly paid engineers behind them, it is completely unacceptable that they aren't brilliant performers on SOME level.
:rant:



That said, I have a brother. Nothing like one-upsmanship between siblings, why not just take yourself back to scratch and come out with cutlery that is going to blow any concept of expectations out of the water(for both of you)? There's a thread here with some simple questions, and links to definitions of terms like "grip" and "cutting motion" that will help us provide you with a knife and accessories that will fit your budget/wants/needs and set a new standard for your expectations.


----------



## mjbakos

Wow! I did not realize what I was getting into. I thought the Henckel's were a very nice knife. I am used to having cheap department store garbage that breaks and just tears meat instead of cutting it, and forget about cutting vegetables.

Like I said, I am on a pretty tight budget - and was just willing to spend a little more on a better knife set than a cheap $50 set that feels flimsy and doesn't last. Really liked my brothers four star 2s & they felt very good in my hand. Then looked at the original four star (because they are cheaper.) That was the reason for my question. Didn't want to buy the cheaper, and then wish I bought the four star *2s* even if a smaller block to start out with, then add to it.

I don't know, maybe $200-$300 for a couple of useful knives that maybe I could add to when I save up some more money.

Not trying to be a chef or anything - I have a very small kitchen, and cook for a small family, nothing special. Any tips or info is greatly appreciated.

Really don't know anything about German vs Japanese knives. Henckel's were the best knives I ever knew, and felt very comfortable in my hand. Didn't know they rated so low. Guess I'm not a knife fanatic (yet) ha ha

Thank you guys for listening to an inexperienced beginner


----------



## Eamon Burke

Budget is not a real big issue. Clearly, the more you are willing to spend, the better stuff you can get(provided you make an informed decision). Whatever your budget/style/needs/etc are, there is cutlery for you. 

Do the questionnaire! Be detailed, don't be embarrassed if you don't know stuff. I got into knives because I wanted to buy a Shun chef's knife to use as a full-time Sushi Chef. :slaphead: It's been my passion ever since to help guys as earnest and ill-informed as I was.


----------



## tk59

I guess I'll break decorum, as well, Eamon. 

1. Geometry - If you mean thin, yes, the chefs' knives are thicker, esp at the heel. However, if you are referring to grind, it is no worse that some of the flat ground knives that so many here rave about.
2. Heat treat - No amount of heat treating is going to turn the steel in a vier sterne into a top performer. It is stainless and tough at 55-ish hrc, period.
3. Edge quality - The sharpening job is limited by the iceberg-sized carbides in the steel.
4-6. There is so much ambiguity and personal preference built into these that it would be a waste of time to comment.

These are the Jeeps and personnel carriers of the knife world. They don't get you from point A to point B the fastest or with the same style but they serve their purpose.


----------



## mjbakos

johndoughy said:


> :ntmy:
> 
> Ok I'll break the decorum here.
> 
> I find those knives appalling, because the qualities that make a knife worth ANY amount of money are:
> 1. Geometry
> 2. Heat Treat
> 3. Edge quality(strictly sharpening job)
> 4. Design
> 5. Comfort
> 6. Aesthetics
> 
> I've never seen a single knife from Henckels' name brand lines that provides a single one of those points in any quantity worth noting. It may seem snooty, or petulant, but considering they are a gigantic global company and producing them in state-of-the-art factories with highly paid engineers behind them, it is completely unacceptable that they aren't brilliant performers on SOME level.
> :rant:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I have a brother. Nothing like one-upsmanship between siblings, why not just take yourself back to scratch and come out with cutlery that is going to blow any concept of expectations out of the water(for both of you)? There's a thread here with some simple questions, and links to definitions of terms like "grip" and "cutting motion" that will help us provide you with a knife and accessories that will fit your budget/wants/needs and set a new standard for your expectations.


 
What type of knife(s) do you think you want? chef, utility, bread,

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing? wanting something better than cheap department store garbage (faberware)

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already? dislike all of these qualities of my knives
Aesthetics-
Edge Quality/Retention-
Ease of Use-
Comfort-

What grip do you use? I would have to say mostly a pinch grip

What kind of cutting motion do you use? mostly slicing 

Where do you store them? In a block

Have you ever oiled a handle? no

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use? plastic but thinking of wood

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing? nothing

Have they ever been sharpened? no 

What is your budget? lower end

What do you cook and how often? meat/vegetables - couple times a week

Special requests(Country of origin/type of wood/etc)?


----------



## tk59

You're gonna need to do something about sharpening. The best knife is still a POS without a good sharpening job. You need to decide if you want something very stainless or if you mind some minor discoloration or if you are okay with carbon steel.


----------



## Eamon Burke

Here's my picks for you, keeping in mind that you are on a very tight budget:
Sani-Tuff Board 15x20 : $40
Idahone Ceramic Rod : $25-30
Ditch the bread knife, if you want a bread knife that bad, get the Tojiro DP bread knife, it's like $60.

Your main, go-to knife(A 'Chef's knife', or it's Japanese equivalent, the 'Gyuto'), submitted for your approval, in order from most most budget conscious to bang-for-the-bucks(though none are a lot of care at all):
Tojiro DP ($80 alone, matching Petty is $50, Parer+Chef's is $100)
JCK Carbonext ($105 alone, matching Petty is $66)
Hiromoto AS ($145 alone, matching Petty is $72)
Murray Carter SFGZ Funayuki ($190 alone)

I priced them for the 210mm, which is 8", because that is what, in my experience, most home cooks want/need. When they inevitably get dull(about 4 months to a year from purchase, depending on how hard you are one them and how sharp you like them), just send them out for professional sharpening. Unless, of course, the sharpening stone bug bites you. Which it might. :wink:


----------



## mjbakos

I really do plan on taking care of a good knife. (Sharpening, hand wash & dry). Never thought it was worth it or even possible to sharpen these things correctly being very thin and serrated. I was thinking stainless to keep them looking like a nice knife.


----------



## NO ChoP!

I say if you like Henckels, there are a few good options. Check out the Miyabi line. The MC line is top notch. Also, the Henckels Twin Cermax is bad a$$, with ZDP189 steel hardened to 66... 

But, if you're open minded, these guys will guide you to the cream of the crop.....


----------



## Eamon Burke

The Hiro AS is a carbon core with stainless cladding, an attempt at the 'best of both worlds. They certainly do look nice.

Sharpening is not so much a sign of care as a new life skill. If you want to learn to do it, you CERTAINLY can, and you don't have to spend over $100 in sharpening stuff all told(though you easily can if you like it). I'd say cross that bridge when you get there. It'll be a while before you will want to take them to the stones.


----------



## jm2hill

johndoughy said:


> It'll be a while before you will want to take them to the stones.




unless you become crazy like us... then a factory edge usually just won't do!

Tojiro dp's are all good. F&F (fit and finish) isn't amazing. but it'll do. If you are interested in carbon they also have the shirogami (white steel) line. which will soon include a wa-gyuto (japanese chef knife) a wa-petty (japanese utility) and already includes a nakiri and santoku.


Johndoughy's list is a fantastic starter list. if you are interested in carbon steel tho look at the knives mentioned above. only difference I would say is don't get the tojiro DP bread knife. get the Tojiro ITK bread knife.

The tojiro ITK bread knife is supposed to be fantastic (highly used and I think reviewed by theory). Its part of my next purchase!


----------



## mjbakos

So basically, I don't need to inventory too many knives. And it sounds like these Japanese knives are way better than the Henckels? If I dont need as many, maybe I can splurge a little. Is there another notch up in quality to look at. Really want to make the right choice, but without overdoing it of course. Thank you guys so much for your guidance. I have much to look at and learn.


----------



## tk59

I also like the list. If you want something that is very stain resistant and you're willing to spend a bit more, my choice would be Ashi or Konosuke stainless (Japanese Knife Imports). These are significantly better cutters than Tojiro and I like the steel better. It chips much less and the edge stays keener longer. If you think you might like something a bit more substantial-feeling, I really like Yoshihiro for a wa-handle (also from JKI) or Masahiro MVH for western (only the Knife Merchant version). With regard to sharpening, I'd get a cheap fine grit diamond plate from Lowes and go to town on whatever knives you've been using. Just work on maintaining your grinding angle/keeping your bevels nice and even. By the time your knives need sharpening, you can jump into whatever whetstones you want or you'll know you gave it a shot and send it to someone (not just any pro sharpener) for sharpening.

If you want to go even better, go for the Ashi-Gesshin line but depending on what kind of user you are, the difference in performance vs the regular Ashi might be negligible. It just doesn't get that much better regardless of price.


----------



## Eamon Burke

mjbakos said:


> So basically, I don't need to inventory too many knives. And it sounds like these Japanese knives are way better than the Henckels? If I dont need as many, maybe I can splurge a little. Is there another notch up in quality to look at. Really want to make the right choice, but without overdoing it of course. Thank you guys so much for your guidance. I have much to look at and learn.


 
You won't need as many knives because a good knife will do a lot of things for you. At home, you can get by with 2--a short one and a long one. Though if you love to cook, you'll want more!

Japanese knives in general(included the massive amounts of factory garbage that never get exported) are about the same as anywhere else. But they do offer better quality at a lower price point than most anywhere else. A knife made from comparable steel from an American factory costs about 4 times what a Tojiro does.


----------



## Eamon Burke

tk59 said:


> I also like the list. If you want something that is very stain resistant and you're willing to spend a bit more, my choice would be Ashi or Konosuke stainless (Japanese Knife Imports). These are significantly better cutters than Tojiro and I like the steel better. It chips much less and the edge stays keener longer. If you think you might like something a bit more substantial-feeling, I really like Yoshihiro for a wa-handle (also from JKI) or Masahiro MVH for western (only the Knife Merchant version). With regard to sharpening, I'd get a cheap fine grit diamond plate from Lowes and go to town on whatever knives you've been using. Just work on maintaining your grinding angle/keeping your bevels nice and even. By the time your knives need sharpening, you can jump into whatever whetstones you want or you'll know you gave it a shot and send it to someone (not just any pro sharpener) for sharpening.
> 
> If you want to go even better, go for the Ashi-Gesshin line but depending on what kind of user you are, the difference in performance vs the regular Ashi might be negligible. It just doesn't get that much better regardless of price.


 
lus1:

Spending a bit more can get you a knife that blows budget factory stuff like Tojiro out of the water(which is saying something, if you are coming from German knives).


----------



## obtuse

If I were you, I'd get the 210mm Fujiwara FKM gyuto 68+7 shipping from Japanesechefsknife.com http://japanesechefsknife.com/FKMSeries.html#WIDTH:%20400px;%20HEIGHT:%20236px I'd also pick up a king 1000/6000 combo stone and a stone flattener. The Fujiwara will out cut the henkels and give you years of service.


----------



## tk59

obtuse said:


> If I were you, I'd get the 210mm Fujiwara FKM gyuto 68+7 shipping from Japanesechefsknife.com http://japanesechefsknife.com/FKMSeries.html#WIDTH:%20400px;%20HEIGHT:%20236px I'd also pick up a king 1000/6000 combo stone and a stone flattener. The Fujiwara will out cut the henkels and give you years of service.



That's also not bad advice, esp if you think you might end up chipping your edges. It's softer but tougher and much less chippy and surprisingly nice to sharpen for a budget knife. The handles run smallish, if that matters. That compared to the large Tojiro handles.


----------



## mjbakos

OK - took a look at some of these knives, and now I really don't know which way to lean.

Hiromoto AS
Kagayaki CarboNext
Tojiro DP
Fujiwara FKM

Really liked the look of all of these knives. Don't really know the difference between all of them (which would hold an edge longer, which would be more stain resistant, etc.) Really liked the price of the Fujiwara FKM and the Tojiro DP even though the carbonext and hiromoto's were not terribly priced. Also liked the many different styles of knives that the Tojiro DP has to offer. (Could make a real nice matching set down the line). Never thought about size of handles. If it matters, I do have very large hands.


----------



## mjbakos

Oh - I did look at the Mayabi also. Liked the look but thought maybe I could do better for the price.


----------



## tk59

Hiromoto AS: solid all-around performer excellent edge-holding except in acidic conditions where it is only good
Kagayaki CarboNext: excellent cutter with very good edge-holding and very good stainless properties (although it does turn a dull gray with time).
Tojiro DP: stainless cladding with somewhat less stainless core. good edge holding and somewhat chippy, decent cutter.
Fujiwara FKM: stainless. decent edge holding, good cutter.

All of them are easy to sharpen with the Tojiro being a bit less easy.

As a home cook that takes good care of his knives, my vote is for the CN, no question.


----------



## mjbakos

OK - My final thoughts that I wish you guys to help me with so that I can make the best decision for myself.

How many knives should I definitely want to start out with for general home use (trimming meat, slicing, dicing veggies, etc.)?
I know that the main "go to" knife is the chef knife (gyuto). Having that, do I really need to have a santoku right away. Are they used for similar tasks? 
Thinking of starting out with a small # of knives and using some of the $ for a good board to cut on. (thinking the sani-tuff that was recommended or a boardsmith) Am I correct in thinking a gyuto and 2 sizes of petty knives?

I guess what I'm asking for is a list of "must have" knives (in your opinion) and sizes, from best to worst for a novice that may not notice a difference between them. And one that will last

Everything that has interested me to this point so far has been - Tojiro DP, Kagayaki CarboNext, Fujiwara FKM, Miyabi, Hiromoto AS -- If you can think of any similar knives in this range that are worth looking at, let me know also.

I am sorry if I am being a pain in the a$$ -- I'm driving my wife as well as myself nuts too -- I just dont want to regret my decision and I know nothing about this


----------



## jm2hill

santoku and gyuto are both multi-purpose knives. some prefer one more than the other. General consensus I believe is pro-kitchen gyuto. Home kitchen if you have room to cut with a 210-240mm gyuto do it. Some people, however don't have room for that and will use a 190mm santoku. It all really comes down to preference.

I would recommend gyuto, but that didn't stop me from buying a santoku for a friend. Its what you think will work for you.

I would get 3 knives + bread (if you would use it):

gyuto 210-240 (if you have room I would get longer)
Petty 150-180
Paring/petty 90-120

As for which model and brand. The DP, Carbonext, FKM, AS, are all highly reviewed as good buys. Can't really go wrong with any of them. 

As for cutting. Get a boardsmith board, those things are beautiful. I'm saving up for one of those. (for some reason whenever I save up it jumps straight to a knife)

+ tojiro ITK bread knife

The essentials could easily leave out the paring and just use the petty, but its nice to have tho.


----------



## Eamon Burke

A man only NEEDS two knives in a kitchen--a big one, and a small one. But the more, the merrier. It depends on what you like to do a lot. You cook a lot of veggies? The flat profile on a Nakiri might be in order. Lots of crusty breads? Bread knife! Sushi? Yanagi. Whole Chicken? Honesuki. Small fruit? Parer. The list goes on.

The truth is, although this is not always the case, the list I compiled for you previously is graded in order of quality AND price. The more you spend, the more you get. Tojiro will be far and away better than anything I've seen out of Europe, but the others are better still. The Murray Carter knife, while out of stock for now, is one of the most amazing values out there--a handmade knife by an expert American craftsman, performs beautifully and under $200. Almost too good to be true.

These knives have other qualities that differentiate them, like exact placement of the balance point, shape of the grind, subtle profile differences...but, being a newcomer to high-performing knives, you won't notice. I really suggest you get whatever you budget can handle on that list. None of them will leave you dissatisfied.


----------



## macmiddlebrooks

Another vote for the Carbonext and matching petty. Amazing value!


----------



## MadMel

I think u would NEED 3 rather then 2. The other being a serrated bread knife.

My list would be Carbonext 210mm gyuto with matching petty, Itk bread knife and, kings 1000/6000 and a DMT XXC or a Atoma for flattening.
Probably cost you about 300 or so for everything.


----------



## tk59

That about sums it up although I rarely use my Tojiro ITK bread knife. That's not because it isn't a great knife, either.


----------



## mhlee

I was in a similar position about a year ago. I was looking to upgrade from a Global G-2 Chef's knife, found various knife-related forums, and became completely confounded by all the options. I've made three knife purchase, 4 stone purchases, and related other miscellaneous purchases. One of the knives was a Hiromoto AS 240. It's a good, but not great knife IMHO, but I don't quite think it's a great starting knife as it requires extra care because it is a carbon steel core knife and to get full performance out of that knife, you'll have to put time and effort into sharpening. 

IMHO, I would start inexpensively so you don't have buyer's remorse for spending a lot of money on a knife you're not too happy with. Since it sounds like you haven't used carbon knves before, I think you should start with a stainless steel chef's knife. For this, I also think the CarboNext is probably the best choice. While I've never used it, enough reputable people have and it's gotten very good reviews. Given its price, it's one of the best price/performance knives available. Shipping is also very reasonable. A santoku would be redundant; it's another all purpose knife like your chef's knife or gyuto. However, note that it does not come with a good edge, like most knives. Getting a honing rod (or sending it to someone here for an initial sharpening) will be necessary. 

If you happen to use a small knife for paring, then a paring knife is probably something you'll really want to purchase. Unfortunately, I haven't found one yet that I'm really happy with so I can't give you a personal recommendation. A 120 mm petty knife is usable for paring and small tasks. I have a Sakai Takayuki that I would not recommend. There are better options for the price. Since many petty knives are around the same price, you can choose whatever knife interests you without a huge price difference between your choices. However, the Fujiwara petty knives are a good deal at $35 for either the stainless or carbon. 

Several people have recommended a bread knife. If you do cut a lot of bread, sandwiches, etc., a bread knife would be a good addition. However, I wouldn't necessarily invest in a Tojiro ITK bread knife. It's a very good knife - I have one - but you could get close to the same performance with a cheaper alternative such as a Victorinox/Forschner for about $40 less. I've had a Dexter offset bread knife for years before buying the Tojiro. I think I paid $13 years ago. It still does the job. You can use the money you saved to buy a ceramic honing rod, stone or put toward that nice cutting board. 

You definitely can get a nice starter set for about $300, not including shipping. Here's an example:

Carbonext 240: $128.00 (+ $7.00 shipping)
Fujiwara 120 petty knives: $35.00 (no additional shipping according to JCK website)
Forschner 10 1/4 inch Bread Knife: $24.95
Idahone 10 inch Ceramic Honing Rod: $24.00
Maple Boardsmith 2x12x18 Board: $102.95 

Total (including shipping costs for CarboNext, Fujiwara and Boardsmith Board): $314.90

If you purchase a Sani-Tuff board or other board, you can reduce the amount by at least $25. If you take out the bread knife, you've reduced your total by another $25.


----------



## Lefty

I agree with johndoughy, except for one small thing. Carter was born in Canada  
I'd go Fujiwara FKM (or carbonext) 210-240 gyuto, and for yourself, a small petty (120-150mm), and a parer for the wife. Bread knives, to me are frivolous purhases. I very rarely use my bread knife, and I eat a lot of bread.


----------



## Eamon Burke

Carter, as we know him, was born in Japan. He's a Yoshimoto bladesmith, you know. :wink:

He's here now, that's all that matters to me.


----------



## Lefty

Those skills are as much a part of MC, as loving hockey is. Don't you know that all Canadians have the ability to make world class knives? Most of us just don't know it yet!


----------



## stevenStefano

Just out of curiosity, do many people have experience of the Zwilling Twin Cermax? This knife keeps popping up and I consider getting it just to see what it is like because spec-wise it looks great but very few people ever talk about it. The 66hrc also appeals to me because I am a pro


----------



## Rottman

The larger twin cermax knives have good profiles (200 and 240 gyuto) and are thin (a little over 2 mm above the heel) but the handledesign is an insult. That's why I converted them to wa-handles a while ago. The edge retention of ZDP-189 is extreme, drops to something like 90 percent pretty fast but stays there forever.


----------



## goodchef1

haven't used the cermax, but their Miyabi MC66 uses the same steel with different profile. I wish the handles were a bit larger, but I can attest to ZDP's performance "Top Notch" If you are a pro, then go with this beast, or at least one with this steel.


----------



## Wagstaff

If I'm buying a gift for my dad... I'm thinking CarboNext or Fujiwara. I have a CarboNext so I have a pretty good idea of what I'd be getting (both in terms of the knife and the ootb edge); can someone compare the Fujiwara FKM? (I don't want to go carbon in this line, from all I've read about what happens before the knife 'settles down', though my dad is ok with carbons in principle). I'm curious about any comparisons overall, and ootb (which matters more in this context than it might if I were buying for myself). Also, do you think both these knives can be sharpened ok on Arkansas stones? i.e., my impression is that they're not so hard to as to require waterstones. Let me know if I'm wrong. (Dad has Arks, and has never used waterstones; I'm trying to keep the overall price down).

So I'm hesitant with the CN because of the OOTB edge and also like the idea of the Fujiwara being even less expensive. But I have never touched a Fujiwara. What say you all?


----------



## MadMel

Fuji is dull ootb.. I do not have experience with the CN but the Fuji FKM is pretty easy to sharpen. If you compare both and you have the $$, I'd rather go for the CN anyday.


----------



## tk59

MadMel said:


> Fuji is dull ootb.. I do not have experience with the CN but the Fuji FKM is pretty easy to sharpen. If you compare both and you have the $$, I'd rather go for the CN anyday.



+1 Both easy to sharpen and come with an unremarkable edge but the CN wins in terms of edge quality and retention.


----------



## Wagstaff

Thanks MadMel and tk59 -- this is what I'd expected; I was *hoping* the ootb edge might be better with the Fuji, cause' its' cheaper. But if he can sharpen on his Arks, it doesn't matter. And edge-retention wins. Most appreciated. (He's got an old Sab that at one time was a crazily beautiful knife -- thinner than my Nogents, noticeably -- but it has been badly abused probably beyond recovery over the decades, and he doesn't REMEMBER how good it was because it's been so long! Now, in old age, he's doing the cooking for my mom, and would finally be in a position to appreciate the good tools. I think that Sab is probably about as thin as my CN, so the CN it is).


----------



## tk59

Do you have pics of the old knife?


----------



## Wagstaff

tk59 said:


> Do you have pics of the old knife?


 No I don't... it's in Vermont, where I was last week, too briefly. (That and only a low-pixel camera on my cellphone... but I didn't think to even shoot it while I was there. I sharpened it such as I could, and couldn't believe how easy it was to do. But the tip is broken, the edge is somewhat recurved (like, "bird beak" section) nearer the tip, and it's pretty badly pitted front and back. He said he paid $25 for it on Canal Street in the 1960s some time. Told the guy he wanted a good knife... heard "you came to the right place" and quickly spent that outrageous sum. Maybe I can get him to send it to me, though, if I get him the CN.


----------



## mjbakos

How about the Kagayaki VG-10? Does anybody have any thoughts on this vs. the CarboNext? Both are very nice looking and comparable in price. After much reading and thinking - would like for this to be about my max range. Almost settled for the Tojiro knives, being a beginner and their price, but if these would be a huge benefit....

And thoughts about size. The average seems to be 210mm in the gyuto, but some say that the longer (240mm) would be better. Being a newbie, I know it doesn't sound like much, but I don't want to feel uncomfortable like I have too much knife.


----------



## MadMel

Hmm, basically, I'd measure my knife vs the chopping board I'd be using. If the whole knife can fit INSIDE of the chopping board diagonally, you're good to go. The too much knife problem arises when the knife is not well balanced or you have got a too drastic board to knife size difference.


----------



## Benuser

About Kagayaki KV series: exceptional F&F in its price range. Non-standard design you may like or not... Very thin, good factory edge. But it is made of VG-10, so not the easiest to sharpen. So, if pleasant sharpening is important to you this wouldn't be yours. If you're looking for stainless you may enjoy its edge retention, not at the highest level of sharpness although.


----------



## stevenStefano

I have the 240 wa-KV8 and I like it a lot. I think the Carbonext would perform better, but the KV8 probably looks a bit better. Just depends on your priorities


----------



## NO ChoP!

I have the 240mm Twin Cermax M66 gyuto. I love it, for the most part. I actually have no issues with the handle design, but could see how it would be bulky on a smaller blade. The balance is almost perfectly centered at the bolster, which for a western isn't too bad. 

As far as steel performance, it took some time to flip the asymmetrical edge over, since I'm a lefty, but it does get nice and sharp and stays sharp forever. It reminds of a Moritaka AS on the board, but isn't chippy at all; but you wont want to rock with this thing.

I do not like the cladding though, this would be 100X's better if it were monosteel. The cladding scratches easily, to say the least.


----------



## Rottman

NO ChoP! said:


> this would be 100X's better if it were monosteel.


haha, yeah, almost same price, Konosuke ZDP monosteel ~700 bucks


----------



## Tatletz

BurkeCutlery said:


> :ntmy:
> 
> Ok I'll break the decorum here.
> 
> I find those knives appalling, because the qualities that make a knife worth ANY amount of money are:
> 1. Geometry
> 2. Heat Treat
> 3. Edge quality(strictly sharpening job)
> 4. Design
> 5. Comfort
> 6. Aesthetics
> 
> I've never seen a single knife from Henckels' name brand lines that provides a single one of those points in any quantity worth noting. It may seem snooty, or petulant, but considering they are a gigantic global company and producing them in state-of-the-art factories with highly paid engineers behind them, it is completely unacceptable that they aren't brilliant performers on SOME level.
> :rant:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I have a brother. Nothing like one-upsmanship between siblings, why not just take yourself back to scratch and come out with cutlery that is going to blow any concept of expectations out of the water(for both of you)? There's a thread here with some simple questions, and links to definitions of terms like "grip" and "cutting motion" that will help us provide you with a knife and accessories that will fit your budget/wants/needs and set a new standard for your expectations.





This is just a joke BurkeCutlery :lol2: , obviously you don't know what you are talking about, or you just brainwashing others. All you posted about Henckels knives is not true and I'm shure you know it. Please try to do your homework befor writing another hiccup. You should specify if this judgement is based on yours or worlds standards.


----------



## El Pescador

Tatletz said:


> This is just a joke BurkeCutlery :lol2: , obviously you don't know what you are talking about, or you just brainwashing others. All you posted about Henckels knives is not true and I'm shure you know it. Please try to do your homework befor writing another hiccup. You should specify if this judgement is based on yours or worlds standards.



I doubt you've spent any time reading the forum or you'd see value in his post. There is value to Henkels, but at the expense of performance. Do you own any cutlery made from a high performance steel? If not, I'd try some out to see what all the fuss is about.

Pesky


----------



## Deckhand

Tatletz said:


> This is just a joke BurkeCutlery :lol2: , obviously you don't know what you are talking about, or you just brainwashing others. All you posted about Henckels knives is not true and I'm shure you know it. Please try to do your homework befor writing another hiccup. You should specify if this judgement is based on yours or worlds standards.


:bat:


----------



## SpikeC

What a nice way to introduce yourself to the forum.


----------



## Lefty

Oh, come on! Maybe read Eamon's other posts before categorizing him as a know-it-all, or what have you.
I'm normally really welcoming to new guys, but give your head a shake and delete your account for the sake of all of us.


----------



## Johnny.B.Good

Tatletz said:


> Please try to do your homework befor writing another hiccup. You should specify if this judgement is based on yours or worlds standards.



One might advise you to do the same. I would be willing to bet that Mr. Burke has done more homework on kitchen knives than you have.

Glad you're enjoying your Henckels however and welcome to the forum. :rolleyes2:


----------



## Justin0505

I just got caught up on this thread, and, as always I see that the new guy got some fantastic advice. However, I'm a bit shocked /disappointed that no one mentioned one of the best parts of this forum:THE BUY SELL TRADE section!


There's even a bunch of brand new Miyabi 5000'S sitting there w/ huge discounts just begging for a new home:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4651-Miyabi-5000s-for-sale


----------



## Crothcipt

Hmmm its funny, that I know a lot of cooks/chefs that have said to me Henckels are the best. I would always cringe. I would always try their knife and want to throw it at them. I never knew why until one day I picked up a global knife and I was singing. I have since been looking for the next experience that I was looking for when I picked up Henckels. OMG I can even stop thinking how sad I feel for those guys.


----------



## ThEoRy

Tatletz said:


> This is just a joke BurkeCutlery :lol2: , obviously you don't know what you are talking about, or you just brainwashing others. All you posted about Henckels knives is not true and I'm shure you know it. Please try to do your homework befor writing another hiccup. You should specify if this judgement is based on yours or worlds standards.



Sorry man but the majority of Henkles just flat out suck on big ones. The only ones of merit are the miyabi with zdp 189 or the Twin Cermax but those are being viewed here as a different beast all together. Eamon isn't referring to any of those in his post. Merely the regular henkles lineups up to (and I would include) the 5000s. Anything over that is again considered Japanese steel, not German.

But hey welcome to the forum! lol


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Tatletz said:


> This is just a joke BurkeCutlery :lol2: , obviously you don't know what you are talking about, or you just brainwashing others. All you posted about Henckels knives is not true and I'm shure you know it. Please try to do your homework befor writing another hiccup. You should specify if this judgement is based on yours or worlds standards.



That's what I love to see on a forum - civility and decorum. Especially from a new member.


----------



## NO ChoP!

I think one should note the differences between the branding; Zwilling being higher ended; Miyabi, a more accepted Japanese brand; Henckels, run of the mill; International, being garbage. No?


----------



## Eamon Burke

Tatletz said:


> You should specify if this judgement is based on yours or worlds standards.



My standards.


----------



## hax9215

For whatever MY opinion is worth I have always preferred Wusthof to Henckels, and that because of functionality-the Tridents are better human engineered with respect to a natural knife stroke. Speaking as an old guy, many chefs of my generation would preach about their Zwillings being the "best" because of "ice temper"; I have it on pretty good authority that it is nonsense. On the other hand, I picked up a Global once, and put it RIGHT back down.

I was first exposed to quality Japanese cutlery working as a chef in Bermuda, many of the chefs in our Chinese restaraunt had a set of sushi knives; but then for daily use they had a thin blade cleaver, a thick one, and a long thin paring knife. Thong Chai and his cooks would laugh at me bringigng in a whole case of Tridents, particularly when I used a chukabocho as a line knife. (Still do!)

The point of all this rambling is that it is a matter of one's pont of view. I will always prefer Tridents for european-style knives, the fact that Wolfgang Wusthof himself presented me with a 8" Wide Cook's after attending one of my cooking classes has alot to do with that! Japanese cutlery is superior in many ways e.g. steel, workmanship in the case of hand-hammered blades, etc. but I would not use a damascus takobiki on the line during a dinner rush. Use what works best for you, and please limit the ad hominie attacks; live and let live, chefs! Remember our real enemies are the waiters!!!

Hax CLEAVERS RULE!!!


----------



## Lefty

Nice post, Hax. You're on my good list! Hahaha


----------



## Tatletz

OMG, what have I done. I have ignited an outburst of criticism and quite frankly well deserved. First, my sincere apologies to BurkeCutlery. Although strongly disagree with him, I should have worded my comment in a different and civilized manner, instead of this ugly assault. Hope he will accept it. Then I apologize to the other members of the forum who felt insulted by my writing. Once again I am really, really sorry!


----------



## SpikeC

Welcome to the Knut House!


----------



## Deckhand

Welcome


----------



## Eamon Burke

Tatletz said:


> OMG, what have I done. I have ignited an outburst of criticism and quite frankly well deserved. First, my sincere apologies to BurkeCutlery. Although strongly disagree with him, I should have worded my comment in a different and civilized manner, instead of this ugly assault. Hope he will accept it. Then I apologize to the other members of the forum who felt insulted by my writing. Once again I am really, really sorry!



Forgiven. That's big of you.

Why do you like Henckels? I mean the name brand lines. I might argue with you. :wink:


----------



## Tatletz

Thank you BurkeCutlery! Well, for about 2 years I have been using some cheap and poor quality set of knives that I had to sharpen after every single use(and not extensive one) and I got fed up. After some search on the net and local stores I found three brands which all had the same excellent reputation: Sabatier, Wusthoff and Zwilling J A Henckels, and quite similar prices with Wusthof being a couple of dollars more expensive in some shops then the others. Over the Christmas season one of the knife stores offered better discount on Henckels knives so I went for them. No particular reason though, it could have been any of the other two if given better discount then the Henckels. That's the story


----------



## Eamon Burke

What do you like about them?

I really do want to know. There are no wrong answers.


----------



## Tatletz

Ok, lets start with the points in your post;

1. Geometry - visually comparing them with other western brands they are quite similar in their shape, I don't think that Wusthof for instance are any different.
2. Heat Treat - apart from Friodur ice hardening process I don't know much
3. Edge quality(strictly sharpening job) - I am really amazed as how sharp they are, honing them with the steel provided is just for fun and not that is really needed 
4. Design - Good enough for me as well as many others
5. Comfort - Very well balanced in my hand, lighting years away from the crap I was using before
6. Aesthetics - Don't see significant difference from other top brands.

And above all I am not a pro, just an enthusiast and have not used any other brand. Just forgot, l recently bought a Kasumi 20 cm Chefs knife.


----------



## ejd53

Hi, and welcome to the forums :biggrin:. I am certainly no knife expert (just a home cook) and am rather new to the forums myself, however I do have experience with Henkels, having used a set of 4 stars for over 30 years. I thought they were just fine, having nothing to compare them to. About 2 months ago, after getting infected with the enthusiasm from the forum, I splurged on a new (gently used) knife for Christmas from the B/S/T section, one of the original DT ITK western Gyutos. I realize it was much more of a jump than most people are willing to make, but it was the best (or worst for my wallet) thing I ever did. For me, there is no comparison and no going back. I am slowly (well, as quickly as my knife orders are finished) replacing my knives and my Henkels sit in their block waiting for the day when they can move to the basement.


----------



## SpikeC

I happily used a Forschner 8" chef for 20+ years, and thought it just fine. Then I experienced a Takeda 210 gyuto and the old knife now just gets used to cut dog food rolls that have bits of bone in them. Until you experience the difference you just can not understand what the chat is about!


----------



## Eamon Burke

Tatletz said:


> Ok, lets start with the points in your post;
> 
> 1. Geometry - visually comparing them with other western brands they are quite similar in their shape, I don't think that Wusthof for instance are any different.
> 2. Heat Treat - apart from Friodur ice hardening process I don't know much
> 3. Edge quality(strictly sharpening job) - I am really amazed as how sharp they are, honing them with the steel provided is just for fun and not that is really needed
> 4. Design - Good enough for me as well as many others
> 5. Comfort - Very well balanced in my hand, lighting years away from the crap I was using before
> 6. Aesthetics - Don't see significant difference from other top brands.
> 
> And above all I am not a pro, just an enthusiast and have not used any other brand. Just forgot, l recently bought a Kasumi 20 cm Chefs knife.



What do you think of the Kasumi?

What did to switch to Henckels from? Were you using Farberware or Chicago Cutlery or what?


----------



## Tatletz

BurkeCutlery said:


> What do you think of the Kasumi?
> 
> What did to switch to Henckels from? Were you using Farberware or Chicago Cutlery or what?




Kasumi is amazingly sharp, and the damascus patern is just captivating. Very comfortable and a real pleasure to use. Before Henckels I had Bruno Barontini knives(bet you never heard about them). Australian design and China made from poor quality steel with virtually non existing edge retention. At one point I was thinking to buy Jamie Oliver set of knives, but somehow "Made in China" put me off(hope I don't offend someone).


----------



## sachem allison

If you are truly in love with Henckels and want to find a knife that is a true joy to use, see if you can find a vintage carbon steel chef Knife A Grand Prize 1900 model 102 and then you will know what made Henckels famous. This new stuff is shite compared to them.


----------



## Tatletz

Ahhhhh, com on guys why are you so against Henckels? I am currently using them and so far I must say they are brilliant. Well, I am not a rich man(unfortunately) so can't afford the joy of buying all the famous knife brands and compare them myself.


----------



## sachem allison

Tatletz said:


> Ahhhhh, com on guys why are you so against Henckels? I am currently using them and so far I must say they are brilliant. Well, I am not a rich man(unfortunately) so can't afford the joy of buying all the famous knife brands and compare them myself.



not against Henckels at all, i truly love the antique and vintage ones over any of the new ones. They feel better in the hand and take an edge that today's can only dream about. My first chef knife was a Henckels classic and that one is way better than today's version of the same knife. Go with what you love and can afford. Everyone's opinion is just that.


----------



## ThEoRy

Tatletz said:


> Ahhhhh, com on guys why are you so against Henckels?



They're just not good. Steel is too soft to hold any kind of edge over 500-1000 grit. They're just blunt, heavy objects with no balance that bruise and crush through food. This goes for Wusthoff, Messermiester etc... I've had many and no longer use any of them save for opening tin cans with.

Good Japanese steel can be had for cheaper than you might think. Give us your budget for at least 1 Gyuto and we will point you in the right direction. I promise your life will change forever!


----------



## MadMel

Tatletz said:


> Ahhhhh, com on guys why are you so against Henckels? I am currently using them and so far I must say they are brilliant. Well, I am not a rich man(unfortunately) so can't afford the joy of buying all the famous knife brands and compare them myself.



Don have to spend that much!! I was using henkels and thought they were like the best ever until I switched. U WILL feel the difference, trust me. And there are good Japanese knives to be had for the price of a henkels 4 star or cermax.. At least that was the case when I started switching earlier this year.


----------



## Tatletz

ThEoRy said:


> They're just not good. Steel is too soft to hold any kind of edge over 500-1000 grit. They're just blunt, heavy objects with no balance that bruise and crush through food. This goes for Wusthoff, Messermiester etc... I've had many and no longer use any of them save for opening tin cans with.
> 
> Good Japanese steel can be had for cheaper than you might think. Give us your budget for at least 1 Gyuto and we will point you in the right direction. I promise your life will change forever!




I have a Gyuto=> Kasumi 20cm damascus made by Sumikama Cutlery in Seki City Japan. So sharp, I am afraid to hold itjustkidding Really very comfortable and a pleasure to use it.


----------



## ThEoRy

Tatletz said:


> I have a Gyuto=>



Oops, sorry, I missed that part. So comparatively, you can feel a huuuge difference in sharpness and edge retention then yes?


----------



## Tatletz

Well, I agree that Kasumi seems to be sharper than Henckels(out of the box) and retain the edge for longer. But if I feel that the german one can not slice through a sheet of paper freely, all it takes is a few strokes on the steel unlike the japanese one that requires to soak the stone. So there are pros and cons, nothing is perfect.


----------



## Eamon Burke

That is very true, and totally valid--that there is a way of doing knives that says to make them tough and soft and hit the hone regularly. The problem is that a great heat treat on a hard knife can mean that a knife will go a few weeks without a touch up at home, and a few days in a pro kitchen, and a proper touchup on a strop or rod can bring back the edge in a fairly sturdy condition. Combine that with the lackluster bevel geometry of most euro knives(Henckels included), and it's hard to prefer it.

I find them to be uncomfortable because the spines are sharp on them ootb. They are often either flat ground or carelessly convexed from spine to edge without regard to the profile taper. The profile is not carefullly considered for tip placement, knuckle clearance, and cut completion, but more for style and aesthetics, with a general swoop being considered all that is needed. The heat treat on them does not bring out a knife that is any better in performance than the worst of all carbon steels(I've made and used an un-heat-treated carbon steel kitchen knife out of a machete, and it will shave arm hair off a 1200 grit rod too).

I don't think poorly of the "softer, serviceable edge" thing, I grew up with Sabatiers I still like a ton. But Henckels isn't nailing it. That is what I was venting about originally.


----------



## Tatletz

Interesting, I never knew this stuff. Just being a home enthusiast cook who was so happy with his new set of knives, until visited this website. Now all my happiness and joy are shattered down the drain :sad0just kidding). Anyway, what do you think about this site?: http://japanesechefsknife.com/default.html


----------



## Johnny.B.Good

You can order from Japanese Chefs Knife with confidence. The operator (Koki) is knowledgeable and responsive. Large selection of quality knives and cheap, fast, reliable shipping from Japan.


----------



## Tatletz

Thank you Johnny.B.Good, I should have joined this forum long ago :doublethumbsup: . Just busy reading on the net about my favorite singer Whitney Houston's passing( I know it's not related to this discussion, but only a human thing). I was interested in buying a santoku knife from them.


----------



## dschonbrun

If you're starting out, certainly quality over quantity... and don't worry about getting all knives from the same series or even manufacturer.

I'd say you want 2 knives at the outset, and 4 in the mid-term.

Here are my suggestions on a starter set in order of acquisition priority:
Gyuto / Chef 200 - 250mm Does 90% of the cutting, slicing and chopping
Paring 60 - 100mm For on and off-board cutting (a.k.a. "in hand")
Utility / Petty 100 - 160mm General purpose and for slicing, relatively shallow blade
Serrated  150 - 300mm For crusty foods, including bread

Many other people with far more expertise have commented on steel choices and manufacturers, so I won't comment further there.


----------



## Tatletz

Guys I will need your help. While sharpening my chef's knife on the stone I got a few bruises above the edge. As not experienced yet I was probably holding it at a too narrowed angle to the stone. I would appreciate it if you could give me some advice on removing them if possible :thankyou:


----------



## Andrew H

Tatletz said:


> Guys I will need your help. While sharpening my chef's knife on the stone I got a few bruises above the edge. As not experienced yet I was probably holding it at a too narrowed angle to the stone. I would appreciate it if you could give me some advice on removing them if possible :thankyou:



Actually it was more likely from 'wobbling' while sharpening. When you wobble you aren't holding your knife at one angle throughout your sharpening strokes, and you can get those sharpening scuffs. Everyone gets them in the beginning, don't worry about it.

If you want to get them out you can polish them out with automotive sandpaper lubricated with dishwashing soap. It helps if you back the sandpaper with something and only move the sandpaper in one direction (I move from heel to tip.)


----------



## Benuser

Another possible cause is a much too thick blade behind the edge. Try some thinning. You may start by sharpening at a slightly lower angle than the one you've used for the very edge, and going further by reducing a little more.


----------



## ThEoRy

Andrew H said:


> Actually it was more likely from 'wobbling' while sharpening. When you wobble you aren't holding your knife at one angle throughout your sharpening strokes, and you can get those sharpening scuffs. Everyone gets them in the beginning, don't worry about it.
> 
> If you want to get them out you can polish them out with automotive sandpaper lubricated with dishwashing soap. It helps if you back the sandpaper with something and only move the sandpaper in one direction (I move from heel to tip.)



I've had a couple issues with this myself early on as well. 

The "problems" that arise are this:

You will never get it the same as the factory polish was.

What ever you do to one side, you have to do to the other as well.


It's a long drawn out process that takes time and patience. But you will learn from it. Learn not to scuff up your blades again that is.


----------



## Andrew H

ThEoRy said:


> I've had a couple issues with this myself early on as well.
> 
> The "problems" that arise are this:
> 
> You will never get it the same as the factory polish was.
> 
> What ever you do to one side, you have to do to the other as well.
> 
> 
> It's a long drawn out process that takes time and patience. But you will learn from it. Learn not to scuff up your blades again that is.



Very true. Unless the scuffs _really_ bother you it would probably be best to just leave them.


----------



## SpikeC

Or buy a belt sander!


----------



## Rottman

You can get a decent finish on a blade with 320/400/600/800 wet-dry paper on a softer backing with just sanding from spine to edge. Might not look exactly like the factory finish but not far off either


----------



## Tatletz

Andrew H said:


> Very true. Unless the scuffs _really_ bother you it would probably be best to just leave them.



Yes, I might just leave them. I wanted to show some photos of the knife, but can't figure out how to attach them. And thanks a lot for all the comments!


----------



## Eamon Burke

Glad you got it figured out. You will also get scuffs from very muddy stones. Sometimes it's un avoidable, and there is no practical way to remove them. They aren't much though. Another reason why carbon steel can be more utilitarian...a patina would cover mud scuffs right up.


----------



## Tatletz

BurkeCutlery said:


> Glad you got it figured out. You will also get scuffs from very muddy stones. Sometimes it's un avoidable, and there is no practical way to remove them. They aren't much though. Another reason why carbon steel can be more utilitarian...a patina would cover mud scuffs right up.



Thank you Eamon, I must first get my sharpening skills right. A friend gave me this DVD => Korin - The Chefs Edge Knife Sharpening. It's about japanese knives, but according to some western knife manufacturers(Wusthof and Henckels in particular) 10-15 degrees is the correct angle when using a whetstone.


----------



## Benuser

Tatletz said:


> Thank you Eamon, I must first get my sharpening skills right. A friend gave me this DVD => Korin - The Chefs Edge Knife Sharpening. It's about japanese knives, but according to some western knife manufacturers(Wusthof and Henckels in particular) 10-15 degrees is the correct angle when using a whetstone.



Wüsthof used to deliver @ 17 degree, and only recently dropped it to 13 degree after changing HT and geometry. Such values might be a goal rather than an instruction. With a given German knife first look a the actual edge, do some thinning and reduce the angle a little. When performance is concerned, the angle of the very edge is much less important than the thickness behind the edge.


----------



## dschonbrun

The Angle choice seems to be variable because it is both a function of the steel, and also the longevity of the egde.


----------



## Tatletz




----------



## Tatletz

?!


----------



## Tatletz

I am sorry for the above empty posts, but I was trying to upload some photos unsuccessfully


----------



## Crothcipt

it is recommended to post on a dif. site and link it. ie google +, photobucket ect. hope this helps.


----------



## Tatletz

At last, I managed to post these photos using Photobucket.




[/IMG]




[/IMG]


----------



## ChefDad

I have been using JA Henckels for over 30 years, the Professional Series is my favorite. German forged steel is hard and holds an edge forever, the exception is the flexible boning knife, but it's not suppose to be hard and stiff. 
I happen to have a 250th anniversary commemorative set that has never been out of the box, I have never seen another one like it. I have a couple of the Four Star Series but like the feel of the professional better. 
You can have your stainless steel, Japanese steel, and any other, I like what I like and that is the Henckel, sorry.


----------



## daveb

:zombiegrave: Wow, waking up a three year old thread takes some perseverance. At one point I thought the Henckels 4 Star were the best knives ever. Still have several hanging around. Welcome.


----------



## Benuser

German steel being hard and holding forever?? No. Rather soft and complaising if abused. But certainly not hard. Welcome, by the way.


----------



## gman

After using a set of Ginsu knives for a decade I bought a set of Henckels and thought they were the best thing ever. Then I bought some Japanese carbon knives, and now think they are the best thing ever. It's really impossible to appreciate the difference until you've tried.

To be fair, my Henckels still get used by my wife, who is afraid of cutting herself on the Japanese knives, and by me for use on frozen food and food with bones, and we still use the steak knives.


----------

