# Edge shape on Itinomonn gyuto



## Prize78 (Feb 17, 2015)

Hi all. 

Was just wondering, I've recently ordered an Itinomonn karouchi gyuto from Maksim at japanese natural stone. With no mention of edge shape, do I assume a 70/30 double bevel???


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## Timthebeaver (Feb 17, 2015)

Don't get too bogged down with numbers. Be faithful to the original geometry when you are sharpening (including thinning) and you will have no problems.


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## Prize78 (Feb 17, 2015)

I've never done 'thinning' before. To be honest, I've only recently got the hang of getting a razors edge on my knives with a stone. This was why I ask. Because some of my western style knives have a 50/50 edge in them and others have a 70/30. I just didn't want to ruin the edge that the Itinomonn came with.


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## Timthebeaver (Feb 17, 2015)

Use a dry-board marker to see where you are sharpening. This will show you where you are removing steel. It is asymmetric, all Japanese knives are. Definitely not 50/50 (but again, don't get hung up on numbers).

post #1 of this thread is essential reading:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-–-The-REAL-DEAL



Fwiw the ootb edge/geometry on my Itinomonn didn't need any work save a few swipes on a strop. Outstanding cutter.


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## Prize78 (Feb 17, 2015)

Timthebeaver said:


> Use a dry-board marker to see where you are sharpening. This will show you where you are removing steel. It is asymmetric, all Japanese knives are. Definitely not 50/50 (but again, don't get hung up on numbers).
> 
> post #1 of this thread is essential reading:
> 
> ...



Excellent. Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.


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## Timthebeaver (Feb 17, 2015)

Prize78 said:


> Excellent. Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.




You're welcome, not a problem.


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## Prize78 (Feb 17, 2015)

Have just received my first proper japanese gyuto from Maksim at Japanese Natural Stones. Incredible service. Despatched Monday from Denmark at 11:54, in my hands in the UK on Tuesday, just after 1pm. I don't know how you'd better that service. And my word, this thing is sharp. (Certainly to me!). It's an Itinomonn kurouchi gyuto. I'll put a pic in the newest knife buy section if anybody's interested.


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## Krakorak (Feb 17, 2015)

Yes, I am definitely interested..The more pictures, the better!


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## brainsausage (Feb 19, 2015)

Prize78 said:


> Have just received my first proper japanese gyuto from Maksim at Japanese Natural Stones. Incredible service. Despatched Monday from Denmark at 11:54, in my hands in the UK on Tuesday, just after 1pm. I don't know how you'd better that service. And my word, this thing is sharp. (Certainly to me!). It's an Itinomonn kurouchi gyuto. I'll put a pic in the newest knife buy section if anybody's interested.



I picked up one of these a year ago when Maksim was offering some variety of site wide discount, just to give em a go, and decided they were a steal at the full price. I actually prefer these to the westerns, and I typically like a beefier workhorse over these lanky style blades.


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## Dazedandkasumi (Feb 20, 2015)

Anybody know if the itinomonn kasumi is wide bevel, or is it more concave?


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## XooMG (Feb 20, 2015)

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Anybody know if the itinomonn kasumi is wide bevel, or is it more concave?


The two things are not mutually exclusive so I think you're misapplying at least one term.

Ichinomon kasumi (stainless clad V2) is a convex tall bevel that has had its shinogi rounded over and blended.


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## Dazedandkasumi (Feb 20, 2015)

Newbee fault:tease:

What I kind of am after is the type of double bevel gyoto that you sharpen like a singel bevel (as I have understood it this is called a wide bevel knife).
So, what I actually was asking for was if the itinomonn gytot has such bevel, or not?


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## brainsausage (Feb 20, 2015)

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Newbee fault:tease:
> 
> What I kind of am after is the type of double bevel gyoto that you sharpen like a singel bevel (as I have understood it this is called a wide bevel knife).
> So, what I actually was asking for was if the itinomonn gytot has such bevel, or not?



Nope


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## Dazedandkasumi (Feb 20, 2015)

Oh, thanks mate..
Bummer, kind of like the looks of that knife..
In that price range, whats the best bet for a wide bevel knife? Tesshu from Aeshi?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Feb 20, 2015)

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Oh, thanks mate..
> Bummer, kind of like the looks of that knife..
> In that price range, whats the best bet for a wide bevel knife? Tesshu from Aeshi?



When Jon gets them back in stock, the Kochi:

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...-kurouchi-stainless-clad-carbon-wa-gyuto.html

A bit more expensive, but well worth it.


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## Dazedandkasumi (Feb 20, 2015)

Thanks!
That was one of the knives on my list, but as its sold out at the moment I have been looking for other options..
What about the Toyama kasumi from Maxim? About the same price. Is it a wide bevel? Sendt a mail to Maxim. He wrote that it has a great grind, but did not mention how it was grinded?


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## designdog (Feb 20, 2015)

I have mentioned this before here and in other forums, sometimes to criticism founded in understandable loyalty to a knife or brand: understand fully what you mean by "wide bevel" knife.

Many newer double bevel knife offerings have what appears to be a "wide bevel" but which is merely a cosmetic effect accomplished by polishing, etc. Looks good but somewhat deceiving. In my view, if the knife is made well, has a great grind and a bevel configuration matching its design parameters, why make it look different? The Shiges, Katos, Heijis, etc don't seem to need it.

There are few true wide bevel gyutos out there. Heiji, the Ajikataya I just received, the stainless clad Kochi mentioned above. Any more?

I do like the design, and sharpening them is a lot of fun. Just wish there were more...


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## Pensacola Tiger (Feb 20, 2015)

designdog said:


> I have mentioned this before here and in other forums, sometimes to criticism founded in understandable loyalty to a knife or brand: understand fully what you mean by "wide bevel" knife.
> 
> Many newer double bevel knife offerings have what appears to be a "wide bevel" but which is merely a cosmetic effect accomplished by polishing, etc. Looks good but somewhat deceiving. In my view, if the knife is made well, has a great grind and a bevel configuration matching its design parameters, why make it look different? The Shiges, Katos, Heijis, etc don't seem to need it.
> 
> ...



KU Carter's, the Ginsanko Tanaka's and the AS Moritaka's are three more.


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## Dardeau (Feb 20, 2015)

The Tesshu are more like the Itinomonn kasumi than the stereotypical wide bevel. As XooMg said the bevels are fairly tall, but are blended into the knife face. 
You can sharpen them like any other wide bevel and then clean them up with sandpaper, or not and just let them roll with stone patterns.


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## Dazedandkasumi (Feb 21, 2015)

designdog said:


> I have mentioned this before here and in other forums, sometimes to criticism founded in understandable loyalty to a knife or brand: understand fully what you mean by "wide bevel" knife.
> 
> Many newer double bevel knife offerings have what appears to be a "wide bevel" but which is merely a cosmetic effect accomplished by polishing, etc. Looks good but somewhat deceiving. In my view, if the knife is made well, has a great grind and a bevel configuration matching its design parameters, why make it look different? The Shiges, Katos, Heijis, etc don't seem to need it.
> 
> ...



My man Desigdog:doublethumbsup:

This guy is great! He has guided me trough the basics with jnats:happymug:

I understand that the wide bevel could be confusing or missinterpred. It does not get any better when english isnt my spoken language (as you probably understand when you read this:O). 

I am looking for a new gyoto. In the search I ran into some posts that spoke of wide bevel gyotos, and the whole consept with sharpening flat on the "wide bevel". This sounded interesting to me. Thats when I started my search for knives with this anatomy.. 

I think I have a better understanding of the consept now. 
That is one of the great thing about forums. You get sensible answers to all your stupid questions:biggrin:

Thanks guys!

Geir


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## Dazedandkasumi (Feb 21, 2015)

As I understand it the konosuke fuyjiyama also have a real wide bevel?
Best bet is probably to ask Jon about the Kochi..


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## designdog (Feb 21, 2015)

This is where I get in trouble, but I am not a big Konosuke fan. I have a B2 I bought direct from them that I keep only because it has sharpening artifacts from my early days. A few months ago I bought a B2 Fujiyama Funayuki and returned it because of the fake bevel.

To each his own. My recommendation if the Kochi SS clad Kurouchi 240 when Jon gets one in stock. I have the 210, and will get the 240 as well.


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## brainsausage (Feb 21, 2015)

Dazedandkasumi said:


> My man Desigdog:doublethumbsup:
> 
> This guy is great! He has guided me trough the basics with jnats:happymug:
> 
> ...



Just to clarify, you don't 'sharpen flat' on the wide secondary bevel. It's there primarily to aid in thinning, and involves 2-3 steps, at different angles.


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## Dazedandkasumi (Feb 21, 2015)

brainsausage said:


> Just to clarify, you don't 'sharpen flat' on the wide secondary bevel. It's there primarily to aid in thinning, and involves 2-3 steps, at different angles.



Oh, you dont? I see.. My bad. I probably missunderstood the post where I read about the wide bevel consept. So, you sharpen as with ordinary double bevel knives, the difference is that the sinogi line is more pronunced, and easyer to follow when thining? Makes sense, as the knife has to be rather thick if you sharpen on the bevel on both sides I guess..

Thanks for the clarification guys!

have sendt Jon a mail about the Kochi


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## designdog (Feb 21, 2015)

brainsausage said:


> Just to clarify, you don't 'sharpen flat' on the wide secondary bevel. It's there primarily to aid in thinning, and involves 2-3 steps, at different angles.



Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with this. If you are talking about a true wide bevel knife, the bevel on each side is the same as the wide bevel on a single bevel knife, the angle is just less. When I sharpen, say, my Heiji gyuto, the bevel is flat against the stone for the Aoto, the Hakka, the Shinden Suita. I might put a small microbevel on with the Nakayama, but not necessary.

Again, I am describing a true wide bevel knife, where, from the top of the bevel to the edge there is a straight angle all the way down.

Someone earlier mentioned Moritaka. Not a true wide bevel, in this sense. Run your finger down the "bevel" and you can feel the real bevel, close to the edge.

For those who do not own traditional Japanese single bevel knives this concept may be tough to grasp. It is a flat plane, nothing more.


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## XooMG (Feb 21, 2015)

designdog said:


> Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with this. If you are talking about a true wide bevel knife, the bevel on each side is the same as the wide bevel on a single bevel knife, the angle is just less. When I sharpen, say, my Heiji gyuto, the bevel is flat against the stone for the Aoto, the Hakka, the Shinden Suita. I might put a small microbevel on with the Nakayama, but not necessary.


Namedropping isn't necessary to try to gain credibility.


> Again, I am describing a true wide bevel knife, where, from the top of the bevel to the edge there is a straight angle all the way down.


Ideally should be clamshell/convex.


> Someone earlier mentioned Moritaka. Not a true wide bevel, in this sense. Run your finger down the "bevel" and you can feel the real bevel, close to the edge.


I haven't tried a Moritaka but I recall you said something similar with Zakuri, which in fact does have a high bevel that can be directly sharpened on. Moritaka looks like standard kurouchi fare, which is usually "tall bevel" by default because the bevel is created by grinding away from the kurouchi knife blank.

You may be thinking about a second "bevel" closer to the edge because it is a common method to thin the edge quickly after truing it and removing fatigued steel from the initial bevel grind. Higher end knives have it sometimes...Murray Carter knives often have it, for example, but it's more common on cheaper knives. I have preserved that occasionally and have ground it away when refinishing the bevel...it does not seem to be critical for performance.


> For those who do not own traditional Japanese single bevel knives this concept may be tough to grasp. It is a flat plane, nothing more.


I think a tall bevel grind is one of the two simplest approaches to making a competent knife geometry. It should not be hard to understand.


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## JBroida (Feb 21, 2015)

designdog said:


> For those who do not own traditional Japanese single bevel knives this concept may be tough to grasp. It is a flat plane, nothing more.



you might be interested in reading this:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...es-Hamaguri-and-Beta-Togi?highlight=beta+togi


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## brainsausage (Feb 21, 2015)

designdog said:


> Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with this. If you are talking about a true wide bevel knife, the bevel on each side is the same as the wide bevel on a single bevel knife, the angle is just less. When I sharpen, say, my Heiji gyuto, the bevel is flat against the stone for the Aoto, the Hakka, the Shinden Suita. I might put a small microbevel on with the Nakayama, but not necessary.
> 
> Again, I am describing a true wide bevel knife, where, from the top of the bevel to the edge there is a straight angle all the way down.
> 
> ...



Are you familiar with a hamuguri edge? It's more to do with the grind than the actual edge, but it's typically referred to as such.


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## brainsausage (Feb 21, 2015)

Crap, Jon beat me to it. What I get for trying to post whilst socializing.


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## designdog (Feb 22, 2015)

Let me apologize for the appearance of name dropping on my previous post. I have added my modest assistance to one of the posters in this thread, on the jNat sticky, and was attempting to continue this assistance by going through the litany of natural stones I typically use. Since I have many others, I could have really gone to town on this, but that was not my purpose. Sorry to offend.

The comments on traditional single bevel knives were directed to the same audience  neophytes here. Note: sometimes when participating in a forum thread it is helpful to read through the entire thread thoroughly, to get an understanding of the various points of view.

So, to those who have put off by my comments: so sorry. To those to whom my comments were intended, you understand.

Of course I am familiar with hamaguri sharpening. While only a recent member of this forum, I have participated on other knife forums for many years, have been buying, using, and sharpening these for more years than most here, have been to Japan many times (on business but also on pleasure) and am not exactly unexperienced.

My view of hamaguri sharpening is that it is a necessary evil related to the poor finishing of low to mid quality knives made in Japan - most designed for the domestic market. From my view, with the amount of money we spend on these things, I should not have to correct a poorly finished knife through my own efforts. Early on I saw a lot of this, and occasionally one slips through  I believe Jon knows about a recent one from his shop.

I think that I am a decent sharpener, but in no way do I want to reconfigure a $300 plus knife, let alone a $500 plus one. And just how do you know where to make the first bevel? 1/2 to 2/3 down the blade road? Do you want to make that call? I dont. And how are you going to do it consistently each time you sharpen? This to in essence fix a problem that should not be there to begin with.

Just a few more comments. Wide bevels are not designed to be aids for thinning. This is ridiculous. They are designed for one of two things: real bevels are designed to create the angle to the edge. Faux bevels are designed to make the knife look sexy.

Finally, to correct an earlier comment. The Moritaka I have is a Masamoto KS clone. Nice knife. And it does in fact have a bevel that begins with the kurouchi line, different from the Takeda S-grind. My mistake.


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## Dazedandkasumi (Feb 22, 2015)

designdog said:


> Let me apologize for the appearance of name dropping on my previous post. I have added my modest assistance to one of the posters in this thread, on the jNat sticky, and was attempting to continue this assistance by going through the litany of natural stones I typically use. Since I have many others, I could have really gone to town on this, but that was not my purpose. Sorry to offend.
> 
> The comments on traditional single bevel knives were directed to the same audience  neophytes here. Note: sometimes when participating in a forum thread it is helpful to read through the entire thread thoroughly, to get an understanding of the various points of view.
> 
> So, to those who have put off by my comments: so sorry. To those to whom my comments were intended, you understand.



I am the neophyte

One of the great things (as I see it) with forums like this one is that wise and experienced people share their knowledge and experience with less experienced people like myself.

Often newcomers ask stupid and annoying question. If my question was stupid, annoying or offending in any way I apologize. This was not my intention! I was just trying to understand a term that I had read about, but did not fully understand. To be honest I am still unsure if I totally understand it or not. 

Designdog guided me in the basics of jnat selection and usage as I stated earlier in this post. So the names he mention was meant for me.
He has been nothing but helpful.

Hope that I havent caused any bad feeling, as this was not my intention. 
I want to thank everyone that have shared their opinion and experience in regards to my question!

Cheers,
Geir


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## brainsausage (Feb 22, 2015)

Everyone has pretty thick skin around here, and I think it's more a lively discussion than anything personal.


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## JBroida (Feb 22, 2015)

designdog said:


> Let me apologize for the appearance of name dropping on my previous post. I have added my modest assistance to one of the posters in this thread, on the jNat sticky, and was attempting to continue this assistance by going through the litany of natural stones I typically use. Since I have many others, I could have really gone to town on this, but that was not my purpose. Sorry to offend.
> 
> The comments on traditional single bevel knives were directed to the same audience  neophytes here. Note: sometimes when participating in a forum thread it is helpful to read through the entire thread thoroughly, to get an understanding of the various points of view.
> 
> ...



I think you'll find that the vast majority of craftsmen in Japan disagree with you regarding your views on hamaguri edges. In fact, you will see a lot more flat grinds on less expensive knives then you will on more expensive knives. I have had this conversation with a number of craftsmen on a number of occasions. In fact, when I say the vast majority, what I really mean is that I can't remember a single craftsman who said otherwise. Clearly, however, as you can see in the post that I previously linked to, both kinds of sharpening can be technically correct. But, if you ask the maker of your knife, they are likely to say that the hamaguri edges are better if you can do them.


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## designdog (Feb 22, 2015)

This can be a confusing issue, and the only Japanese knife maker I know personally specializes in double bevel knives - very good ones at that.

Before your very thorough You Tube series every other demonstration of single bevel sharpening, at least to my recollection, featured beta togi sharpening. The actual demos I participated in while in Tokyo did as well. Perhaps it is another example of keeping it simple, stupid...

So of course I defer to you in this regard. But I am going to continue my method; it is easier for me to perform consistently and results in a sharper, if less retentive edge. Three bevels on a single wide bevel knife reminds me of the bit in the Oscar Wilde play, The Importance of Being Earnest: "To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness."?


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## JBroida (Feb 22, 2015)

yeah... a lot of chefs and knife shops that cater to the public teach beta togi because its easier and less time consuming.


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## strumke (Feb 24, 2015)

This might be off-topic and I can start a new thread, but how do you thin without essentially creating a big wide bevel? I've watched Jon's video, but I'm having trouble visualizing it and I don't want to mess up a good knife


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## JBroida (Feb 24, 2015)

you end up creating a wide bevel like that if you do it on stones... then refinishing takes time if you want things to look pretty. Sand paper works well. Belt grinders and buffers work faster, but are more expensive and much more dangerous (especially the buffer)


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## strumke (Feb 24, 2015)

JBroida said:


> you end up creating a wide bevel like that if you do it on stones... then refinishing takes time if you want things to look pretty. Sand paper works well. Belt grinders and buffers work faster, but are more expensive and much more dangerous (especially the buffer)



Thank you, makes much more sense


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