# Natural Stone Progressions



## bennyprofane (Sep 20, 2016)

Thought it would be interesting to read what kind of natural stone progressions others are doing. This might also be an inspiration to jnat newbies (to which I count myself). 

A full natural progression I am doing is thai orange binsui-thai white binsui-khao men-ohira renge suita

I am also trying out replacing the Khao Men with an Aizu or following the Suita with an Aiiwatani Kiita.

The Thai orange Binsui is very nice, quite hard, doesn't clog and seems quite fast. My Thai white Binsui is a bit of a mystery stone as it's also slightly orange, so far I like it but have to do further testing. The Khao Men has very nice feeling to sharpen on, it's very smooth and produces mud quite fast. I'm not sure how fast it is and have to do further testing. The Ohira Renge Suita is a dream, it's so smooth, very fast and easily makes an amazing edge.

I am also interested to hear from more experienced users if the think a full natural progression has advantages (perhaps in edge quality or retention) to starting out with a coarse synth.


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## YG420 (Sep 20, 2016)

I used to use a full jnat progression starting with an ikarashi, red aoto, aoto then an ohira suita and sometimes finish on a hideryama, but I didnt see any difference in the end result other than taking a longer time on the stones. Now I just start with a chosera/naniwa pro 400-1000 then stop either at a red aoto or ohira suita, depending on what knife and esge im looking for. I only use the hideryama for my single bevels now. For aesthetic finishes, i usually play around with syns and jnats even more.


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## YG420 (Sep 20, 2016)

In short, starting with a syn and finishing with a jnat is perfectly ok in my book.


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## chinacats (Sep 20, 2016)

My normal full progression is Binsui>Takashima

It's almost all I ever need...that said I have kept a few low grit synthetics for major repairs.


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## wbusby1 (Sep 20, 2016)

For my own knives, I do almost exclusively daily touch-ups and rarely use synthetics or progressions and just use 1 jnat that session depending on the edge desired for my workday, somewhere in between 3K-9K


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## panda (Sep 21, 2016)

natsuya (600), ikarashi (1.5k), aizu (3k) i don't go any higher in progression.


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## bennyprofane (Sep 21, 2016)

Interesting, according to Watanabe the Ikarashi is finer than the Aizu. How fast is the Ikarashi compared to the Aizu?

I also thought the Natsuya isn't that course. It is very soft, no?

You don't use synth at all?


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## Steampunk (Sep 21, 2016)

On less abrasion resistant steels like 10xx series, Shirogami, Sandvik SS, Ginsan, VG-10/N690, SAK 1.4116 SS, etc I'll use my Type-30 White Binsui and Aiiwatani from Maksim... The jump really isn't too bad providing you breakdown the mud properly, and I really like the edge on these steels this combo leaves if I'm looking for something more refined. Sometimes I just stop at the Binsui; especially for meat processing. I would love to have an aoto-type stone that can finish in the 3-5K range when I'm looking for an edge finish in between, and try a decent omura to see if I can pull off a full natural progression for wide bevels, but for the most part this duo does just fine for my needs. 

On more abrasion resistant steels like Aogami, SRS-15, SLD, ZDP-189, etc I'll use a DiluBlue or DiluCot slurry progression from thin yogurt-consistency mud to clear water on one of my Belgian stones after a synth in the 800-1K range; I've yet to find a low grit natural that can shape these steels well enough to reset a bevel. Fortunately the Belgians have enough range on slurry for maintaining light-moderately worn edges, so these can be a 1-stone solution. 

Sometimes on Western knives or tools I'll do a full Arkansas progression (Soft, Hard, Translucent; one side of each stone finished coarse, the other well burnished.) for nostalgia; a polished Trans Ark delivers one awesomely refined shaving edge on softer 10xx series carbon steels. 

- Steampunk


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## bennyprofane (Sep 21, 2016)

Thank you, very interesting. Are those older Belgian stones you use? I read that the new Coticules are not as good for kitchen knives.


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## Steampunk (Sep 21, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Thank you, very interesting. Are those older Belgian stones you use? I read that the new Coticules are not as good for kitchen knives.



I have a decent size collection of Belgian Blue and Coticule stones... Some acquired within the last 6-months, some a few years old; some are from the 'Special Veins', and some are from their bog-standard range. I can honestly say that none are unsuitable for kitchen knife use, but some do perform better than others. 

The pinkish-purple Belgian Blue stones seem to have a higher garnet content than the slate-blue ones, so work better on steels with harder carbides (And are really underrated stones; the Coti's get a lot of credit, but Blue's are in a real sweet spot in my opinion for knives!), but both work on normal carbon/chromium steels. Even on the slate blue stones, a decent pinkish purple or Coticule slurry stone (These are cheap, and easily sorted through to find a real gem; look for a natural combo.) kicks up the cutting power on slurry to more ideal levels, and the lower abrasive volume really only comes up as an issue on water-only passes at the end with abrasion resistant steels. The better Blues don't have this issue, and are decent cutters even on water. 

The two most common 'non special' Coti veins at the moment that you will probably receive if you buy a Standard or Select grade stone are La Gris, and 'La Vein Rouge de Regne'. Neither are extraordinary compared to a La Verte (Hard, super fine but a little slow on water, and fast on slurry.), or a La Veinette (Creamy perfection! Auto-slurries a bit on knives with pressure, so can be used more like a normal Japanese stone.), or a La Dressante (Real fast cutter, even on water.), but both can sharpen even high carbide knives (Coti edges are slightly better push-cutters, but also slightly less toothy than Blues, so take this into account.). The La Gris I have has an interesting feel (Like sharpening on a bed of marbles; you can actually _hear_ the garnets! None of my other Belgians are like this.), is chalky-soft, and doesn't like slurry as well, but if used purely as a water-only finishing stone following - say - a Belgian Blue or a 6K synth it works quite well and the feedback is actually kind of enjoyable in a weird sort of way. The LVRR is more run of the mill Coti; mine is happy enough with a thick slurry, medium hardness, average abrasive density, normal feel, finishes well on water, etc. It won't light any fires if you know what the special veins are like, but it's still a good stone. If you look at enough of the ID photos submitted by Coticule enthusiats, this will help you to figure out what a stone might be when buying, or what you have been sent if you buy a Standard or Select grade stone (Pay a little extra for the 'Select'; you get a guarantee of a more consistent and ideal product.).

The Coti's have a higher density of a slightly smaller abrasive than the Blues, and the special veins have been charted more thoroughly, which is why they get more press (Especially with straight razor folk; Blues are still considered 'Pre-Finishers' on razors, but on knives are towards the upper end of what I like on a gyuto.). However, both Coti's and BBW's are very good and usable stones, and can be truly spectacular stones if you search around for the gems which sometimes come up for sale... 

Hopefully this helps... If you have any Belgian stone Q's, feel free to PM, and I'd be happy to chat. Not everyone likes them, but they happen to float my boat on certain steels, and if you're interested in trying one I can attest that they are an interesting alternative to J-Nats and equally as addictive (Particularly if you approach them differently than J-nats or synths in usage.). 

- Steampunk


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## bennyprofane (Sep 21, 2016)

Wow, you really have a lot of knowledge on these stones. Have you heard to the "La Lorraine" stone, apparently it's in between the Belgian Blue and the Coticule. It is available here: http://www.thuringianhones.de/epage.../Category1/La_Lorraine&ViewAction=ViewFaceted

Perhaps this is similar to the pinkish-purple Blue stones you mention.


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## Steampunk (Sep 22, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Wow, you really have a lot of knowledge on these stones. Have you heard to the "La Lorraine" stone, apparently it's in between the Belgian Blue and the Coticule. It is available here: http://www.thuringianhones.de/epage.../Category1/La_Lorraine&ViewAction=ViewFaceted
> 
> Perhaps this is similar to the pinkish-purple Blue stones you mention.



These are only some personal observations, on top of some tidbits I've picked up from the true experts in the Belgian stone field; I just happen to like rocks that pair with a Chimay...  I have heard of the La Lorraine or 'Rouge du Salm'; I don't own a confirmed one, but have a BBW on a natural combo that is fairly close in the described properties, and one standalone stone that is a little farther off (Both in the colour spectrum and in performance traits.) but is still a good cutter. Based upon how the veins transition, stones fall into a spectrum; the blue-grey BBW's feel more like a slate stone with a lower percentage of garnets, and the deeper purple ones seem to have a higher garnet content almost like a Coticule. I suspect that these stones are extracted closer to the Coticule vein, but do not know for certain; a number of Rouge du Salm and the - in my somewhat limited experience - more desirable purplish BBW's appear on natural combos. 

Based upon what I have read, the La Lorraine stones are a little finer, and can be a little softer than normal BBW's... That's what the BBW on one of my natural combos is like; it auto-slurries even more than my La Veinette bout, and is a bit finer and more consistent than the rest of my BBW's. It cuts really quite well, and leaves a nice finish on ZDP-189 @ 64-65hrc. Always wanted a bigger stone like this. I actually wasn't familiar with that website; thank you! 

- Steampunk


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## Badgertooth (Sep 22, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Interesting, according to Watanabe the Ikarashi is finer than the Aizu. How fast is the Ikarashi compared to the Aizu?



I asked Sin about that and he only considers the peppermint green and occasionally white stones from Kasabori to be real Ikarashi. it is rare, the mine closer in 1964, it's fast-cutting, pre-finisher level mid-grit and played a part in Niigata becoming a bladesmithing centre. He recently sold one for ¥220K. There is other stuff from Tsugawa & Uozu Toyama that is called Ikarashi which is coarser & more readily available. I will be testing the Kasabori variant soon.

Edge progression 
Chosera 1k > Thai with aoto slurry > Khao men if I want smooth edge or Tsushima if I want a very aggressive edge

Cosmetic progression 
King 800 > Thai binsu with Monzen slurry > maruoyama > uchigumori


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## XooMG (Sep 22, 2016)

I go directly from Naniwa 220 pink alumina to Nakayama with 220 grit slurry.


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## jklip13 (Sep 24, 2016)

XooMG said:


> I go directly from Naniwa 220 pink alumina to Nakayama with 220 grit slurry.



I like this guy


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