# Gyuto with least stiction / best food release



## wisew (Apr 14, 2014)

First I wanted to thank you all - it is unreal how much I've learned from this forum in the past week or so. I went from being convinced that only a German knife could possibly meet my needs to diving head-first into the wonderful world of Japanese knives.

This is for a down-the-road purchase for myself - in my other thread I settled on a Chinese cleaver, but I would also like to have a Gyuto (and so my collection begins... haha).

When it comes to prep work, stiction and wedging are my mortal enemies. I've been eating semi-vegetarian for awhile, so I cut up tons of root vegetables and squash, not to mention cheese, and my Victorinox Fibrox has a serious problem with stiction. EVERYTHING sticks as I cut. It makes me cut a lot slower than I would otherwise. Sure, I might be able to improve this with a different grind (I'll see what I can do when I get my stone), but what I really want is a gyuto with the least stiction possible. I want it to laugh in the face of potatoes, and send cheese flying off its blade (well okay, not too literally).

I've looked at Glestain and I've heard good things, but I wanted to find out if there was anything I'm missing.

Thanks so much for your help!

LOCATION
What country are you in?
United States


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef's knife (gyuto), or a santoku if that would make more sense given my needs

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Western; I suspect wa handles would be too uncomfortable and utilitarian for me.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm / 210mm (but I do already have an 8" knife so 240's probably better)

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes (I won't consider anything that isn't stainless) - it needs to have exceptional corrosion / stain resistance

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$200, unless more would get me something godlike.


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing, chopping, and mincing vegetables; slicing and chopping cooked meat (like sausages for example)(I don't really handle raw meat anymore). Specifically, cutting up cheeses, squash, potatoes, onions, garlic, carrots, beets, etc.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Not exactly replacing, but complimenting a Victorinox Fibrox 8" Chef's Knife and a Messermeister Asian Precision 8" Chinese Cleaver.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Drawing, walking, push cut

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Better food release!! Much sharper OOTB edge, excellent edge retention, minimal wedging, effortless cutting is really what I'm going after.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
I'd like a knife with exceptional fit & finish. For riveted Western handles, for instance, the handles should be completely seamless and well constructed. The spine should be well polished.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
As ergonomic a handle as possible - nothing blocky, and not just a straight stick. The handle should be grippy (that's easily my favorite part about the Fibrox). A semi-rounded choil would be good - I don't really want to dig my finger into a sharp corner - same with spine. Excellent balance.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
OOTB sharpness should be exceptional (but I will sharpen it); less wedging for sure; and of course, better food release (minimal stiction possible).

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
As long as possible, but I would also like a knife that isn't crazy difficult to sharpen.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes (bamboo and cork)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Will be starting as soon as my stone arrives



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I'd like the knife to have a really hard steel (my cleaver has a max HRC of 58, so harder than that), but still be reasonable for a newbie to sharpen. Also, I'd like it to have great edge retention and be able to take a magically sharp edge. Any suggestions for such a steel?

It would also be nice if it was a little on the wider side toward the handle for finger clearance purposes.

I'd like the handle to be as durable as possible, but also somewhat grippy (don't want it to slide if I happen to get my hands a little wet). I probably wouldn't want a vanilla wood handle, because I doubt it would hold up over time and would require a bit more care and maintenance than I'm able to invest right now. But some kind of resin-infused wood handle or a grippy plastic would fit the bill.

Are there certain features knives with less stiction have (grind, finishes, etc)?


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## jai (Apr 14, 2014)

Without taking into consideration your preference and answering your question from my opinion. A pre makers mark mario ingoglia gyuto, this knife has the best food release and least stiction ive ever seen or used.


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## wisew (Apr 15, 2014)

Oh I should add that my budget really isn't that fixed - I'm totally willing to save up if that's what it takes (although I don't want a custom knife).


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## CoqaVin (Apr 15, 2014)

I am trying to find the thread that someone made (do not remember who) with videos showing how each knife performed vs. potato sticktion


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 15, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> I am trying to find the thread that someone made (do not remember who) with videos showing how each knife performed vs. potato sticktion



http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13910-Food-Release-Videos?p=233242#post233242


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## CoqaVin (Apr 15, 2014)

thanks buddy the search feature here is not too great


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## pleue (Apr 15, 2014)

glestains work pretty well for this though the steel isn't that hard


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## CoqaVin (Apr 15, 2014)

Watching those videos again I think I need to get myself and Itinominn


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## James (Apr 15, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> Watching those videos again I think I need to get myself and Itinominn



Feeling the same way about the yoshikane


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## Timthebeaver (Apr 15, 2014)

James said:


> Feeling the same way about the yoshikane



My Yoshikane kasumi works, to quote the late Tommy Cooper, "just like that"


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## wisew (Apr 16, 2014)

Any more suggestions?


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## Talim (Apr 16, 2014)

[video=youtube;dkp7NzFy8EQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkp7NzFy8EQ[/video]


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## wisew (Apr 16, 2014)

Talim said:


> [video=youtube;dkp7NzFy8EQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkp7NzFy8EQ[/video]



:rofl2: Well played.


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## CoqaVin (Apr 16, 2014)

oh ming


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## Frater_Decus (Apr 16, 2014)

"Lighter than air" + "no pressure or force required" to cut, huh? Dang!


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## wisew (Apr 16, 2014)

Well let me attempt to get this back on topic -

Will pretty much any Japanese knife I get that isn't a laser have better food release than my flat ground Victorinox?

Because if that's the case I'll probably just get a Glestain since I know those work, as well as another highly regarded Gyuto that I won't be needing so much for good food release, but for a better edge.


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## Benuser (Apr 16, 2014)

A few suggestions: look for a heavier gyuto (I have the Hiromoto AS and Masamoto HC in mind), eliminate steering by proper sharpening, loosen your grip and speed up your motion.


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## Benuser (Apr 16, 2014)

http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=405


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## dannynyc (Apr 16, 2014)

Rick tested out a ton of knives last year, focusing on stiction. Should be very helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcDNo_K9VqC30UyG1IOAhuw


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## loves2cook (Apr 16, 2014)

Here is a stupid question for ya all. I watched the link with the other thread that has the videos and did my own little test. Why not just use a knife with a granton edge for easy release ? Is that not kosher for the chefs arsenal ? I have a cheap granton edge sabatier santoku that I sharpened up nicely and it passed the potato test with flying colors compared to all my other knives. I'm not sure if they have Gyuto's with granton as I've never looked for one lol. But would't a Damascus gyuto release well ?


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## ThEoRy (Apr 17, 2014)

loves2cook said:


> Here is a stupid question for ya all. I watched the link with the other thread that has the videos and did my own little test. Why not just use a knife with a granton edge for easy release ? Is that not kosher for the chefs arsenal ? I have a cheap granton edge sabatier santoku that I sharpened up nicely and it passed the potato test with flying colors compared to all my other knives. I'm not sure if they have Gyuto's with granton as I've never looked for one lol. But would't a Damascus gyuto release well ?



Were the potatoes peeled and soaked in water in the fridge overnight? Because THAT's the potato test. Korin has Glestain. http://korin.com/Glestain-Indented-Gyutou?sc=27&category=8549827


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## wisew (Apr 17, 2014)

Alright, I will be trying out a Glestain when I visit Korin this weekend.


As for my non-super-anti-stiction knife, after spending waaaaay too much time scouring this forum, I think I've narrowed it down to these options:

*Gesshin Ginga 240mm*
People have been singing the praises of the Ginga all over the place and it seems like one of the (if not the) frontrunners right now.

*Gesshin Kagero 240mm*
(See note for Blazen)

*Gesshin Uraku / Gonbei AUS-10 240mm*
Jon recommended these to me as beginner J-knives, but the fit & finish don't seem to quite be there compared to many of the others I have here, and that is something I care about. Although I'll find out this weekend at Korin, I don't think I'm going to like wa handles very much right now (and I think I run a high risk of ruining them with roommates around -__- ), so that would rule out the Uraku.

*Hattori Forum FH 240mm*
I must admit that I've been seduced by the handles. They look like the best Western handles on any J-knife I could get, and from what I've gathered people seem to be pretty pleased with the knife's performance, and I've found several posts from relative beginners saying this was a great first knife. Definitely a frontrunner.

*Suisin Inox (Special Inox? Western-Style?) 240mm*
This one's cheaper (on par with the Gonbei / Uraku) more or less, but how's the F/F? Performance, retention, ease of sharpening, etc?

*Ryusen Blazen 240mm*
I've read really good things about the Blazen, but it's by far the most expensive one I have listed here. Would I be gaining anything with that sticker shock? I noticed that along with the Kagero the Blazen is the only one with powdered steel - will that be too difficult for a newbie to sharpen / care for? (I've read some reports about it being more brittle than other steels but maybe this doesn't apply to the Blazen or Kagero.)

*Masamoto VG 240mm*
Not entirely sure what advantages the Masamoto would have over any of the others here.

*Mac Pro MBK-95 240mm*
Ah, what the hell. It's on the cheap end, and Mac was a lot of people's gateway knife. (This is the dark horse candidate)

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What do you think of these options? Are any of them too difficult for a beginner to sharpen? (I'll be practicing on my Victorinox).

I know most of these have asymmetrical edges - are asymmetrical edges more difficult for a beginner to sharpen? (I'm guessing yes but I will be practicing on another knife so maybe that won't be a deal breaker?

I'm actually leaning laser because I essentially already have two workhorses with my Victorinox and Chinese cleaver, but at the same time I think I'd like something middle-ground - much thinner than anything I've ever used, but not quite a laser (if I start in the middle than I'll know whether I want to go thicker or thinner).

Also to give you an idea, although I'm a beginner, I don't want to start out with a knife that I'm almost certain to outgrow. I fully expect my tastes to change as I gain more experience, but I don't want to drop a lot of money (even the "entry level" knives are a lot of money for me) on something I will almost definitely replace once I get more experience.

Thanks again everyone!


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## Ruso (Apr 17, 2014)

Does not matter what knife you buy now, you will end up "overgrowing" it even just for curiosity reason  
However from the above choices I would be selecting from Ginga and Suisin.


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## wisew (Apr 17, 2014)

wisew said:


> Alright, I will be trying out a Glestain when I visit Korin this weekend.
> 
> 
> As for my non-super-anti-stiction knife, after spending waaaaay too much time scouring this forum, I think I've narrowed it down to these options:
> ...



After a little more research I've now narrowed it down to:

*Gesshin Ginga 240mm*
*Gesshin Uraku / Gonbei AUS-10 240mm*
*Hattori Forum FH 240mm*
*Suisin Special Inox 240mm*
*Suisin Western Style Inox 240mm*
*Masamoto VG 240mm*
*Mac Pro MBK-95 240mm*


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## jai (Apr 17, 2014)

Imho the victorinox chefs knife is quite laser its thin and light not really very qorkhorse like the only reason people consider it a work horse is because its not very brittle and can take alot of abuse.


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## jai (Apr 17, 2014)

Also dont worry about outgrowing them in 6 months you will be buying more knives haha once you commit to it your screwed lol.


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## Norton (Apr 22, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> Watching those videos again I think I need to get myself and Itinominn



You won't regret it---it's a super knife.


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## wisew (Apr 22, 2014)

FWIW, I went to Korin this weekend and tried out the Glestain, and found it waaaay too clunky and chunky for my tastes (guess I am used to thinner & lighter knives after all - damn you Victorinox!). I also have come to realize that the reason I hate stiction so much might be because my knife is so dull all the time, so it's like pouring salt in a wound. If my knife had better cutting performance, I wouldn't care so much about stiction (if that makes sense). So for my first plunge into the world of J-knives, I'd rather get a performance beast than an anti-stiction beast, and if stiction still bothers me, then maybe an Itinomonn or Gesshin Heiji is in order. 

So at this point, I'm almost definitely getting a Gesshin Ginga. (although that Itinomonn really does look nice... dammit)


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## mhlee (Apr 22, 2014)

wisew said:


> FWIW, I went to Korin this weekend and tried out the Glestain, and found it waaaay too clunky and chunky for my tastes (guess I am used to thinner & lighter knives after all - damn you Victorinox!). I also have come to realize that the reason I hate stiction so much might be because my knife is so dull all the time, so it's likelihood pouring salt in a wound. If my knife had better cutting performance, I wouldn't care so much about stiction (if that makes sense). So for my first plunge into the world of J-knives, I'd rather get a performance beast than an anti-stiction beast, and if stiction still bothers me, then maybe an Itinomonn or Gesshin Heiji is in order.
> 
> So at this point, I'm almost definitely getting a Gesshin Ginga. (although that Itinomonn really does look nice... dammit)



The Ginga is not the best performer when it comes to food release, but it's on par with other lasers. The Heiji has much better food release. 

But, the Ginga is a superior cutter to most knives. I generally prefer my Ginga over my Heiji.


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## dannynyc (Apr 22, 2014)

If you're thinking laser and you're open to semi-stainless, I'll make a pitch for the Konosuke HD line. Practically stainless -- you'd have to leave it in the sink for a long time to have any issues. It comes in a funayuki profile as well if you like a flatter profile. Incredibly thin and light, takes a fantastic edge, keeps it for a really long time. This is such a good knife you may never need another. Keep in mind that the 240s are actually closer to 230mm.


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## toddnmd (Apr 22, 2014)

In general, I think a lot of lasers cut fairly well, but sticktion can be an issue because a lot of the side of the blade is flat--they don't have much bevel. That being said, I really liked the HD gyuto I had.


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## wisew (Apr 22, 2014)

Has anyone tried both the Ginga and Konosuke HD out? I've seen a lot about both, but I've found that people seem to like the Ginga more?


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## dannynyc (Apr 22, 2014)

toddnmd said:


> In general, I think a lot of lasers cut fairly well, but sticktion can be an issue because a lot of the side of the blade is flat--they don't have much bevel. That being said, I really liked the HD gyuto I had.



I haven't found stiction to be much of an issue with my HD. It's an inherent issue with lasers: because they are so thin, there isn't enough metal to work with to build in convexity. However, to the extent that there is some minor stiction -- which I personally consider to be a pretty insignificant issue, at least to the extent it exists with the HD -- it's more than made up for by its ability to hold an edge and the lack of wedging that comes from its extreme thinness.


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## wisew (Apr 22, 2014)

So for lasers, I've gathered that these 3 are highly regarded:

*Gesshin Ginga*
*Konosuke HD*
*Sakai Yusuke*

As far as I can tell though, Ginga has the best F/F of the three, although I could be wrong (and I do want the best F/F especially if the performance is comparable across all 3, which it seems like it is).


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## Timthebeaver (Apr 22, 2014)

I've never seen anyone describe Yusuke F&F as anything but first rate. You can't go wrong with Gesshin Ginga either.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Apr 22, 2014)

wisew said:


> So for lasers, I've gathered that these 3 are highly regarded:
> 
> *Gesshin Ginga*
> *Konosuke HD*
> ...



I have Kono HD and have to say I don't know how can one improve F&F any further. I'd say F&F on my Konosuke is a least as good as on my Shigefusa.
I think you can't go wrong with any either of those.


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## dannynyc (Apr 22, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I have Kono HD and have to say I don't know how can one improve F&F any further. I'd say F&F on my Konosuke is a least as good as on my Shigefusa.
> I think you can't go wrong with any either of those.



I was going to say the same thing, but didn't want to come across as too much of a Kono booster, plus I have no experience with the Ginga or Yusuke. If I did have one tiny criticism of the Kono, it's that the spine and choil could be rounded slightly more, though they certainly have been rounded. Honestly, I think any differences here are likely to be at the barely perceptible margins -- you should go with what your gut tells you you want the most (you may also want to pay attention to the fact that not all knives are the same length -- some are a bit shorter than 240, 210, etc., and some slightly longer -- depends on your preference). Whatever your choice, you are going to be very happy.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 22, 2014)

I've owned all three, and the F&F of the Gesshin Ginga is just a tad better than the Sakai Yusuke, which is in turn, a bit better than the Konosuke HD. It centers primarily on the spine and choil area, and isn't anything that a little time, wet/dry sandpaper and effort can't fix. As mentioned elsewhere, the Sakai Yusuke has a screened kanji, rather than engraved. 

FWIW, the "laser" I have now isn't any of those three, but a Tadatsuna INOX.


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## rami_m (Apr 22, 2014)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> I've owned all three, and the F&F of the Gesshin Ginga is just a tad better than the Sakai Yusuke, which is in turn, a bit better than the Konosuke HD. It centers primarily on the spine and choil area, and isn't anything that a little time, wet/dry sandpaper and effort can't fix. As mentioned elsewhere, the Sakai Yusuke has a screened kanji, rather than engraved.
> 
> FWIW, the "laser" I have now isn't any of those three, but a Tadatsuna INOX.



How does the Tadatsuna compare?


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## wisew (Apr 22, 2014)

I'm curious about the Tadatsuna as well.

Also to be clear, I'm looking at the western Ginga since the wa Ginga isn't in stock - is everyone referring to the wa Ginga or the western Ginga?


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## CoqaVin (Apr 22, 2014)

what about the original "Laser" Suisin Inox Honyaki : the epitome of a laser


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## wisew (Apr 22, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> what about the original "Laser" Suisin Inox Honyaki : the epitome of a laser



Waaaaay out of my price range unfortunately.


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## CoqaVin (Apr 22, 2014)

I figured that, I always wanted to try one of them


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## labor of love (Apr 22, 2014)

the suisin inox honyaki has amazing handles but personally id take a white steel versions over any of the stainless/semistainless lasers. theres also tanaka damascus knives which are san mai blue steel lasers... but you really shouldnt consider any of these knives if food release is a priority.


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## wisew (Apr 22, 2014)

labor of love said:


> the suisin inox honyaki has amazing handles but personally id take a white steel versions over any of the stainless/semistainless lasers. theres also tanaka damascus knives which are san mai blue steel lasers... but you really shouldnt consider any of these knives if food release is a priority.



Food release was my #1 priority when I started this thread, but after doing more research and talking to Jon from JKI I've come to realize that it isn't anymore - I want cutting performance. The reason why stiction bothers me so much is because my knife's cutting performance is so bad right now - if it were better stiction wouldn't bother me as much. Later on I might add a knife with great food release to my collection.

Thanks though!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 22, 2014)

About the Tadatsuna.

Is it enough to say that it is the one I kept? The choice between it and the Gesshin Ginga was strictly subjective, as the Tadatsuna just felt better in my hand when I used it. You'd be hard pressed to distinguish among them on cutting performance.


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## mhlee (Apr 22, 2014)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> About the Tadatsuna.
> 
> Is it enough to say that it is the one I kept? The choice between it and the Gesshin Ginga was strictly subjective, as the Tadatsuna just felt better in my hand when I used it. You'd be hard pressed to distinguish among them on cutting performance.



One of KC Ma's - RIP - favorite knives as well.


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## JBroida (Apr 23, 2014)

mhlee said:


> One of KC Ma's - RIP - favorite knives as well.



when he and i were working together a long time ago, i had a suisin inox honyaki and he had the tadatsuna... he used to joke that the only reason he liked the tadatsuna better was that the kanji were stamped in instead of etched on


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## wisew (Apr 23, 2014)

FWIW, I pulled the trigger and I will soon be the happy owner of a Gesshin Ginga. 

I may not be getting the food releasing, anti-stiction world conqueror I was after at the start of this thread, but I will be getting one helluva knife, to say the least.

Thanks Jon!!


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## dannynyc (Apr 23, 2014)

wisew said:


> FWIW, I pulled the trigger and I will soon be the happy owner of a Gesshin Ginga.
> 
> I may not be getting the food releasing, anti-stiction world conqueror I was after at the start of this thread, but I will be getting one helluva knife, to say the least.
> 
> Thanks Jon!!



Congrats! I'm sure you'll love it. And I'm sure you'll be back here, looking to feed the addiction. :muahaha::


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## wisew (Apr 25, 2014)

Just got the Ginga today, and ho- ly- crap. As nice as the pictures are, they really don't do it justice - this knife is unreal. Superb fit and finish, surprisingly comfortable western handle, great balance, lightweight, and so thin (but very sturdy - not so thin that it's flimsy). (Nicer, IMO, than most or all of the knives I looked at at Korin.) Also, there are no pictures of this, but on the reverse side of the knife is some really beautiful engraved kanji, complimenting the etched kanji on the other side. And 240mm really was the perfect size for what I was looking for. I have to work late today so I won't get a chance to cook until tomorrow, but needless to say, I am excited.


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## CoqaVin (Apr 25, 2014)

the stainless one?


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## MowgFace (Apr 25, 2014)

wisew said:


> Also, there are no pictures of this, but on the reverse side of the knife is some really beautiful engraved kanji, complimenting the etched kanji on the other side.



This is the Ashi-Hamono Kanji. Pictures of this can be found the JKI website, it is the 2nd picture available of the knife.

Mowgs


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## wisew (Apr 25, 2014)

MowgFace said:


> This is the Ashi-Hamono Kanji. Pictures of this can be found the JKI website, it is the 2nd picture available of the knife.
> 
> Mowgs



Whoops, somehow managed to miss that. But it really is quite sexy.



CoqaVin said:


> the stainless one?



Yup!

(Link for posterity: http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...inga/gesshin-ginga-240mm-stainless-gyuto.html )

I'll try to post pictures at some point, maybe when I check out a nice camera from the library.


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## CoqaVin (Apr 25, 2014)

wisew said:


> Whoops, somehow managed to miss that. But it really is quite sexy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



? I thought you wanted to try carbon?


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## wisew (Apr 25, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> ? I thought you wanted to try carbon?



Hmm? Nope wasn't me - I was going stainless. Maybe one day.


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## tomsch (Apr 25, 2014)

Great choice! I love my 240 Ginga. It is more sturdy than it looks initially.


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