# The Future of Fish



## cheflivengood (Aug 26, 2016)

As a chef I was always fond of working with and cooking fish, more like obsessed. From age two I was forced to eat sushi once a week until it was my favorite day of the week. This being said, after delving deep into sushi research for a potential restaurant, I found myself feeling guilty about using an already scarce resource, and the more I read about the populations of major fish species and the affect over fishing and over farming can have on the planet, I stopped eating fish all together, and as much as people want me to put shrimp and salmon on my menu I will never do that. What do you, the chefs and non industry folk alike, think of these articles and the future of seafood in not just america but the planet, because the ocean is its own big ecosystem. 

http://ideas.ted.com/should-you-stop-eating-fish-2/



http://www.takepart.com/feature/2016/06/09/bluefin-tuna-decline?cmpid=foodinc-fb


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## preizzo (Aug 26, 2016)

Business restaurant should close all over the world, all this is not sustainable anymore!


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## preizzo (Aug 26, 2016)

I am saying that and I am a chef. In the restaurant where I working we always pick products from small producer, that help a lot


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 26, 2016)

I think cooks and chefs that really understand fish are exactly the people that could develop the best non-animal textural/flavor alternatives to use in traditionally fishy dishes


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## malexthekid (Aug 26, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I think cooks and chefs that really understand fish are exactly the people that could develop the best non-animal textural/flavor alternatives to use in traditionally fishy dishes



Sorry, but NO!!!!!! No substitutes. Just take it off the menu.

And i agree, Australia has some serious issues with over fishing. I love fish, but don't eat it a lot, and agree it does need to be managed a lot better than it is.

Perhaps farming should be something that is looked into.


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## Von blewitt (Aug 26, 2016)

For me the issue is also educating the dining public about eating more sustainable and less threatened species, as well as managing and enforcing species quotas.
We have plenty of lesser known species of fish which are equally delicious as more "mainstream" varieties, but we always have trouble convincing people to try a fish they haven't heard of.


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## malexthekid (Aug 26, 2016)

Von blewitt said:


> For me the issue is also educating the dining public about eating more sustainable and less threatened species, as well as managing and enforcing species quotas.
> We have plenty of lesser known species of fish which are equally delicious as more "mainstream" varieties, but we always have trouble convincing people to try a fish they haven't heard of.



Like carp fish stew/curry for us Canberrans


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## JDA_NC (Aug 26, 2016)

It's a really hard issue. I'd be interested in hearing some of the sushi chefs here chime in.

I've been working in a Japanese restaurant here in Chicago that has a sushi team/kitchen (although I don't do sushi and I am on my way out). We get the best fish I've ever seen in my life - which is funny being in the Midwest and having lived on all three coasts (Pacific, Atlantic, Gulf). There's definitely a strong Gold Rush attitude... meaning, the thought is "well, if we don't serve these species/fish, all the other restaurants in the world still will, and the consequences are going to happen regardless." So we keep feeding into the cycle. We've literally had whole tuna stolen by other purveyors at O'Hare... it's nuts.

Profit margins in the restaurant business are so slim to begin with. If you're in a restaurant that does sushi it's even more so. The general public only feels comfortable spending X amount for nigiri or maki when in reality we should be paying much more.

And it's tough because the whole art/craft/tradition of sushi is extremely attractive. Working with fish is maybe the most sexy (and delicious!) thing you can be doing in a kitchen. The fish station is almost always at the top of the hierarchy on the line because it takes a lot of skill and care to do well.

It also sells. People want to go eat at seafood restaurants, high-end or not, and people also want to cook that food. It's definitely a very near-sighted approach.


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Aug 26, 2016)

On a related note, it's an interesting story that the late Reverend Sun Myung Moons Unification Church has the sushi industry locked down from building the boats to intermarrying with Americans to gain fishing rights to the sushi wholesalers, True World Foods. Not making any sort of a statement other than it's interesting.

http://www.unification.net/1980/800713.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/chi-0604sushi-1-story-story.html

Cheers,

Rick


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## b2kk258 (Aug 26, 2016)

Tall Dark and Swarfy said:


> On a related note, it's an interesting story that the late Reverend Sun Myung Moons Unification Church has the sushi industry locked down from building the boats to intermarrying with Americans to gain fishing rights to the sushi wholesalers, True World Foods. Not making any sort of a statement other than it's interesting.
> 
> http://www.unification.net/1980/800713.html
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/chi-0604sushi-1-story-story.html
> ...



Moon is freaking nuts...I try not to order from true world. I'll even make the 4 hour round trip to buy fresh fish directly from fishermen in Boston. And I also agree with Von Blewitt, there are tons of lesser known varieties out there that are great.


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## WingKKF (Aug 27, 2016)

Aren't there fish that good to eat and can be sustainable harvested as well? Lionfish is supposedly an invasive species that are taking over the seas and can do with some harvesting. Only thing is you have to be careful with the poisonous fin rays.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 27, 2016)

@malexthekid using bad alternatives kills the dish, refusing good ones kills the fish.

Just that there is far less knowledge on how to do it yet... integrating eg tofu into the framework of a chicken or pork dish, or eg gluten into the framework of a beef dish are, as far as dishes that define the protein (opposed to ones that are definined by it!) go, by now well known methods where only skill limits the result. Far more tricky and obscure with fish... yes I am aware of "mock shrimp" and similar products, but I am not looking at anything a cook cannot make in a kitchen here - these things tend to deserve "substitute" as an epithet far too often


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## chefcomesback (Aug 27, 2016)

I have been avoiding any fish caught by long lines where due to the process so much by catch is killed . 
I try not to eat much Apex predator pelagic fishes like swordfish and tuna mostly plate sized more sustainable fishes 
As many stated there are so many tasty fishes they don't get the attention they deserve so when I go fish market to eat at home thats what I would be looking for first 
In restaurant environment it is such a big challenge to sell a rather unknown fish


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## jessf (Aug 27, 2016)

Jelly fish is the future. Over fishing is causing their number to explode. Jelly fish are the locust of the ocean


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 28, 2016)

The UK charity, The Marine Conservation Society, provides excellent information on fish, fishing and eating http://www.goodfishguide.org/

I should have consulted it before buying those sprats last week: http://www.goodfishguide.org/fish/285/Whitebait

We have a 'pocket good fish guide' stuck to the fridge... looks like I should actually have it in my pocket!

See also https://www.msc.org/cook-eat-enjoy/fish-to-eat

"The Marine Stewardship Council is an international non-profit organisation established to address the problem of unsustainable fishing and safeguard seafood supplies for the future."


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## alterwisser (Aug 28, 2016)

Reminds me how everyone here on the east coast seems to avoid Bluefish, apparently abundant in the region. Yet you go to restaurants and find Grouper, Sea Bass, Cod and Salmon. When we lived in CT once a year thousands of Bluefish came right to the beach, the water looked like it was boiling from so much movement. My neighbor used to grab the fish right out of the water with his bare hands...


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## chefcomesback (Aug 29, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Reminds me how everyone here on the east coast seems to avoid Bluefish, apparently abundant in the region. Yet you go to restaurants and find Grouper, Sea Bass, Cod and Salmon. When we lived in CT once a year thousands of Bluefish came right to the beach, the water looked like it was boiling from so much movement. My neighbor used to grab the fish right out of the water with his bare hands...



I love bluefish


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Aug 29, 2016)

Bluefish is an oily fish and stands up well to Mediterranean dishes.


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## ynot1985 (Aug 29, 2016)

on of my fav book/documentary was 'end of the line'. It made me realised that farmed fish isn't any bit better for the environment/ecosystem then most people think it is


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## alterwisser (Aug 29, 2016)

Tall Dark and Swarfy said:


> Bluefish is an oily fish and stands up well to Mediterranean dishes.



I think the challenge is that it needs to be really fresh... and you can't trust a lot of vendors to tell you it was caught less than 3 saga ago... 

I like it though especially with spicy sauce ...


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## WildBoar (Aug 29, 2016)

Bluefish has always been something to go after for the fun of it around here, but never really for eating. People did eat it a bit when I was a tadpole, but once they were allowed to legally catch rockfish again everyone seemed to punt on the bluefish.


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## foody518 (Aug 29, 2016)

Question - even with sustainable fishing practices, is the intention to be able to meet for example current consumption levels? 
I don't buy meat or seafood almost ever for home cooking, but definitely understand the bind restaurants are in because of competition with other restaurants to have a diverse menu and put out quality dishes. 
A fair bit of the discussion has talked about more upscale capacities like for sushi or in seafood restaurants which are usually not so cheap, but there is also the cheaper mass produced side of things like frozen cod fish sticks, canned seafood, and the like, which I'd imagine account for a significant amount of overall consumption.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 30, 2016)

The "cheap, mass produced" side of things is two faced with all animal products: On one hand, it makes sure the literal "whole hog" is used. On the other hand, it economically encourages CAFO practices that are about the lowest animal welfare standards you can get away with.


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## cheflivengood (Aug 30, 2016)

Ive been weening my cat off of fish, which even though I buy very expensive (for cat food) caned food, its still probably big drag net caught albacore or salmon. The thing with low and high quiality land animals is that even an awfull McDonald owned "ranch" is still a micro ecosystem, there could still be a very heritage, well cared for group of animals 20 miles away having had no affect by the industrial **** hole. The ocean is one large eco system so weather its a blue-fin or mass caught anchovies destined for Cesar dressing in a shenanigans it all has an adverse effect. sorry its early...does that make sense?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 30, 2016)

Ironically, fishing would be likely the MOST ethical method of gathering animal-based food if it wasn't overdone ...


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## foody518 (Aug 30, 2016)

@LifeByA1000Cuts What makes it the most ethical method?


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## boomchakabowwow (Aug 30, 2016)

Tragedy of the Commons. <---fits perfectly.


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## cheflivengood (Aug 30, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Ironically, fishing would be likely the MOST ethical method of gathering animal-based food if it wasn't overdone ...



It can only be ethical for coastal community's IMO


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 30, 2016)

Animal where ability to feel pain and fear is controversial vs animal where it is NOT.

@cheflivengood basing your diet on fish would be, not your occasional fish. See "overdone" (as in overfished, not overcooked


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## Wens (Aug 30, 2016)

If only someone in the US could convince people Asian carp are good eating. We could do with fewer of those in the water.


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## daveb (Aug 30, 2016)

Wens said:


> If only someone in the US could convince people Asian carp are good eating. We could do with fewer of those in the water.



Bugle mouthed bass? It would take a lot of convincing.


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## foody518 (Aug 30, 2016)

So the ethics is very much dependent on the culture and time within human history then. Because we as humans have progressed in our knowledge about sentience of other species. Main thing with sea creatures is you tend not to hear them


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 30, 2016)

@foody and location too. Using a location's ecosystem as part of it, or selling a sustainable amount of your surplus, or building a whole infrastructure to support bringing old habits to the large cities on a massive scale, all different kettles of ...

The second irony is: "critters, eat them all alike" would be the more antispeciesist argument, but not the more humane.


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## Wens (Aug 30, 2016)

daveb said:


> Bugle mouthed bass? It would take a lot of convincing.



I saw an article that called them Kentucky tuna" once. I still don't think that's all the way there. Maybe call them something cod, like the Patagonia toothfish became a Chilean seabass.


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## drawman623 (Sep 4, 2016)

Tall Dark and Swarfy said:


> Bluefish is an oily fish and stands up well to Mediterranean dishes.



Bluefish can be extraordinary if it is prepped correctly. As a fisherman who prepares his own catch I have found that bleeding the fish and then excising the bloodline from the fillet can transform its flavor. 

There is nothing like good smoked blue fish though...alone or incorporated in other dishes. In Pate form especially


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## alterwisser (Sep 4, 2016)

drawman623 said:


> Bluefish can be extraordinary if it is prepped correctly. As a fisherman who prepares his own catch I have found that bleeding the fish and then excising the bloodline from the fillet can transform its flavor.
> 
> There is nothing like good smoked blue fish though...alone or incorporated in other dishes. In Pate form especially



I'm intrigued! Where can I find smoked blue fish???? (I'm in NJ, right across the river from Manhattan)


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## jessf (Sep 5, 2016)

Wens said:


> If only someone in the US could convince people Asian carp are good eating. We could do with fewer of those in the water.




Isnt someone already doing that and selling to asian american consumers?


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## drawman623 (Sep 5, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> I'm intrigued! Where can I find smoked blue fish???? (I'm in NJ, right across the river from Manhattan)



I find it available at fish markets. Blue fish are in huge abundance from August through October around here. Their schools are massive and they tend to be easy to catch (though a bit harder to handle). There are several local markets who provide smoked full fillets. Pate is more difficult to find. 

Send a PM if you come up empty and I'll ship you some. Cheers


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 20, 2016)

Eat fish and other seafood a lot at home. As long as wild caught salmon is available will buy it. When go out to eat almost always order seafood. Don't eat Marlin the big fish have more mercury content. 

Grew up eating seafood not likely to change at my age. :O. Almost 4X as many people since I was born many of the billions of people on earth live in coastal regions & eat seafood it is not hard to see how the oceans are under stress.

Couple of my nieces my sister's daughters grew up with seafood lots of fresh fruits & Veg. Both married guys who grew up on junk fast food. Burgers & fries, Fried Chix, Pizza etc. I know people that simply will not eat any fresh vegetable.

I like panko crusted NZ or Japanese Oysters too most people don't eat oysters.


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## LostHighway (Sep 20, 2016)

Fish, and more recently shrimp, stocks in the Gulf of Maine have been in trouble for quite a while. Part of the problem definitely has been over-fishing but warming and more acidic waters seem to be adding to the problem.
As of 2016 our stocks of Atlantic Mackerel and Bluefish are in good shape but neither of those are readily commercially available (aside from smoked Mackerel), at least in a retail environment. Both are strong flavored and quick to spoil so not to everyone's taste but I enjoy both of them. Lobster, Scallops, Mussels, Oysters and Clams all seem to be in good shape and the farming appears sustainable. Pollock stocks are also fairly healthy here and there is a push to get more people to eat Acadian Redfish and Dogfish/Cape Shark as they are also relatively abundant. After that the picture starts to look grimmer. Hake and Monkfish are still moderately abundant but less so than the preceding species. Occasionally harpooned swordfish shows up in our seafood markets and, mercury concerns aside, the harvest method is at least sustainable. 
Personally, I'm trying to give up almost all Tuna but it is a struggle as I love it. Cod and most ground fish (Monkfish aside) I've stopped eating. I was never a fan of farmed Salmon or farmed Tilapia. I'm willing to give Lionfish a try if it starts to become available. I'll leave Asiatic Carp to you inland folks.


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## GeneH (Sep 20, 2016)

Wens said:


> If only someone in the US could convince people Asian carp are good eating. We could do with fewer of those in the water.




They are so darn ugly though. Ewww. We have plenty of some kind of Carp here, and no warnings from MN DNR Fish Consumption Advisory for the stuff they check. Northerns on the other hand are not recommended to eat very often. After a foray of try to cook an Eeelpout I'm pretty shy of ugly fish.


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## steelcity (Sep 22, 2016)

This may be of interest to some of you -

I have a good friend who is a wholesaler here in Madiera Beach, FL and I used to manage the place. All of the fish that come across the dock are caught in a responsible way in U.S. waters. While some fish are caught via longline, there have been measures taken to protect the resource such as using smaller hooks and lighter leader lines so larger breeder fish are able to break away. The captains have been educated and only fish in certain areas. The by catch is minimal and whatever by catch there is comes in and is able to be sold and eaten. These are just lesser known fish but they are mainly mild tasting fish that are pretty damn good. He also has fish that has been harvested by spearfishing. The shooters selectively harvest these fish and this results in zero by catch. I personally love spearfishing as you get a chance to go down and see everything with your owns eyes. You can then select what fish you would like to have for dinner (assuming you're good enough to shoot one).

Each and every fish gets a tracking tag placed on them with their own tracking number. This number can be entered online and also the seller and buyer to see what captain/boat caught the fish and where it was harvested in the Gulf. All of the fish are immediately gutted and iced. When they come across the dock, the are immediately packed in vats with fresh ice and placed on a refrigerated truck to go to fish houses around the country. 

Please contact them if you're interested in providing a sustainable caught fish on your menu. 
http://www.wildseafoodco.com/WildSeafoodCompany/
https://www.facebook.com/WildSeafoodCo/

Tell him Big Brian pointed you in his direction.


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## cheflivengood (Sep 22, 2016)

steelcity said:


> This may be of interest to some of you -
> 
> I have a good friend who is a wholesaler here in Madiera Beach, FL and I used to manage the place. All of the fish that come across the dock are caught in a responsible way in U.S. waters. While some fish are caught via longline, there have been measures taken to protect the resource such as using smaller hooks and lighter leader lines so larger breeder fish are able to break away. The captains have been educated and only fish in certain areas. The by catch is minimal and whatever by catch there is comes in and is able to be sold and eaten. These are just lesser known fish but they are mainly mild tasting fish that are pretty damn good. He also has fish that has been harvested by spearfishing. The shooters selectively harvest these fish and this results in zero by catch. I personally love spearfishing as you get a chance to go down and see everything with your owns eyes. You can then select what fish you would like to have for dinner (assuming you're good enough to shoot one).
> 
> ...



This is great to hear, there is an under appreciation for Gulf and Caribbean smaller fish that are really great and fun to butcher.


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## Castalia (Sep 22, 2016)

What do you think of Four Fish?
From Five Books:
For wild fish, he says flat out that we must reduce fishing effort. There are too many fishermen in too many boats chasing too few fish. He suggests that certain areas of the oceans be completely off limits for fishing, and that we manage fish populations such as tuna, which can travel across oceans, on a global basis. For fish farming, he says that the species we raise should be efficient. Salmon, for instance, are carnivores that must be fed more fish protein than they produce. Thats not efficient. Tilapia can get by on a vegetarian diet. So that is more efficient. Any fish farm should not damage wild systems and we should limit the number of fish farms in a given area.

:dontknow:


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## Wens (Sep 22, 2016)

But tilapia taste so awful that the only thing they could possibly be useful for is feeding to salmon, so that doesn't get you anywhere.


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## foody518 (Sep 22, 2016)

Oops, my family occasionally eats tilapia XD


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## Dardeau (Sep 22, 2016)

This entire question is pretty central to my day. The restaurant that I work at has a great advantage in having wholesale licenses. This gives us the same buying abilities, if not volume leverages, as purveyors and allows us to develop relationships with fishermen. 

This in turn allows us to be more choosy about what we sell, not only because we deal directly, but because purveyors know we can and do deal directly and if we are mislead about provenance or sustainability we can cut them out. We can't afford the time or effort to cut them out entirely, but it does help keep them honest.

It also allows us to reach out to small producers and offer them what we would pay a wholesaler, giving them an incentive to offer us first pick, look for a certain species.

I know a dab of the science here, my fathers background is in marine biology, but fisheries management is a mind numbingly complicated thing that is being executed by some very smart and honest people alongside some greedy government agencies.

A few good options:

Look up OpenBlue cobia farms. This guy is doing open water aquaculture in Panama, with what appears to be a pretty neutral environmental impact. Could be a total sham, but a couple of scientists I've asked said it looked legit.

Eat crabs (stone crab claws are great, just follow the law, no crabs killed!) and oysters, as well as clams and scallops if you are in FL. I guess I should make it clear that I only know the seafood of the upper Gulf of Mexico very well. These are all solid fisheries with pretty simple and low impact mariculture options.

Find the guy who spear fishes recreationally and make friends. This guy is going out anyway, has ZERO bycatch, and would love to pay for the gas and his boat payment. Our guy has a commercial and pelagic license. When he gets a tuna, he kills one fish. The only way his environmental impact would drop is if he swapped his outboards for paddles.


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## Dardeau (Sep 22, 2016)

Livengood, I just remembered you're in MI. None of my advice, save OpenBlue applies. I hope it was at least entertaining!


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## ryan (Nov 1, 2016)

I love eating fish but after reading this thread I started having second thoughts.Better to take fish off the menu or having any substitutes.


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