# Whetstones



## reapernazara (Dec 29, 2017)

I have never done any sharpening in my life. I bought, what I consider, a fairly nice knife. It cut really well and really thin with little effort, it's about a year or so old now and is incredibly dull. I would preferably like to start out spending about $50 for a whetstone if I could, I would go up to $100 if it's necessary. I don't want to spend a lot because I don't know if I'll actually keep doing it or tire of the effort it takes to sharpen knives.

I need to be led by the hand here, I know pretty much nothing about whetstones, except that you use them to sharpen blades.
Thank you.


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## nutmeg (Dec 29, 2017)

Hi,
as survival kit I would see a synthetic stone #1000. 
This is fine enough for many kitchen tasks and fast enough to repair your dull blade.
I like the AI#1000 in this range for example.


btw if your knife were in new or healthy condition I would have adviced a #2000 grit stone as single stone.


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## reapernazara (Dec 29, 2017)

So if I get a #1000 and decide to invest more what number should I get?


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## PalmRoyale (Dec 29, 2017)

I'm going to suggest the Atoma 1200 grit diamond plate. It's very fast which makes it easy to keep the edge in good shape and you can also do small repairs with it. Finish with light strokes using only the weight of the knife and you'll have a very aggressive edge. Another plus is that it never needs flattening. It's the best one stop sharpening solution imo.


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## nutmeg (Dec 29, 2017)

a #2000 and then a #8000.
A diamond plate is convenient to keep the stones flat, take a coarse one. And a couple of finer ones to repair chipped blades.
There is no good set without some uchigumoris and suitas. 
A fine Nakayama is a must-have too. Once you have it you can get a razor.

and so on..


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## PalmRoyale (Dec 29, 2017)

I wouldn't say a fine stone is absolutely necessary. Strop on news paper after the Atoma 1200 and you'll have a razor sharp edge.


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## K813zra (Dec 29, 2017)

nutmeg said:


> a #2000 and then a #8000.
> A diamond plate is convenient to keep the stones flat, take a coarse one. And a couple of finer ones to repair chipped blades.
> There is no good set without some uchigumoris and suitas.
> A fine Nakayama is a must-have too. Once you have it you can get a razor.
> ...



Hah! Way to thrown the man down the rabbit hole before he has even begun.


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## Bensbites (Dec 29, 2017)

At minimum you need something like a 1000 grit stone and a way to keep that stone flat. 

I have been advised by friends to just buy a decent stone because starter stones will be replaced quickly. I didnt take that advice. You might want to pick up a cheaper blade to practice on befor you sharpen /scratch a nicer blade. 

I am still learning and watching YouTube videos from Ken Schwartz and Peter Nowlan.


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## Benuser (Dec 29, 2017)

After a 800-1k you will a finer stone, at least for deburring. A 3k, a Belgian Blue or Coticule.


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## rick alen (Dec 29, 2017)

You undoubtedly have a bunch of knives that can use thinning. King 300 course stone shipped to your door for about $25. Iminishi 1k-6k combination stone, about $60


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## rickbern (Dec 29, 2017)

Reaper, the reason youre getting responses that are all over the map is that everyone has a different idea of what a pretty nice knife means. Different answers for Japanese vs German for sure 

What kind of knife are you trying to sharpen?


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## jessf (Dec 29, 2017)

Most importantly i think is to keep at it. Sharpening a knife can become second nature after a short period of time. Most people sharpen their own pencils, knives really dont have to be thought of any differently.


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## JaVa (Dec 29, 2017)

Most would guide you to get 1000 grit and 6000 grit stones. That's the most recommended approach and I see no reason it would't work for you. 

To make your life easier the Sigma Select II 1000/6000 combo stone might be a good idea. They are very fast and could make the intro to sharpening more pleasing. Tread carefully though. With a fast stone you'll get results.. well... faster, that's good and bad results. So make sure your doing things right.


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## nutmeg (Dec 29, 2017)

rick alen said:


> You undoubtedly have a bunch of knives that can use thinning. King 300 course stone shipped to your door for about $25. Iminishi 1k-6k combination stone, about $60


that is also a solid combination for the budget but...


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## nutmeg (Dec 29, 2017)

rickbern said:


> Reaper, the reason youre getting responses that are all over the map is that everyone has a different idea of what a pretty nice knife means. Different answers for Japanese vs German for sure
> 
> What kind of knife are you trying to sharpen?



that would be helpful to know


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## daveb (Dec 29, 2017)

Ken WHO? The filter must be broke.


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## reapernazara (Dec 29, 2017)

It's a Ludwig Schiff 8" chef knife. I had to do some research to find out what it was. I also don't tend to respond during the day, im a night shift worker so hopefully I'm sleeping during the day normally. 

I also had no idea that it mattered what kind of knife you had. I thought that a whetstone was a whetstone and would sharpen any kind of knife as effectively as another.


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## unprofessional_chef (Dec 29, 2017)

With a 1K stone you won't have anything to remove the burr. If you can't remove the burr you'll never have a great edge. I'd get a stone in the 3-4K range. With a finer stone it'll be easier for you to learn how to find the optimal angle where the bevel is flat against the stone. Then use the same fine stone to deburr by stropping. Getting a quality combo stone isn't a bad idea either.


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## HRC_64 (Dec 29, 2017)

Get a 1k/2k (eg, shapton JDM stones).

You want to learn on something that cuts properly, 
and FAST so you can see what you are doing.

OP will likely facet the bevels on finer 3-4K
before they get a steady freehand.

Also the OP knife is solingen, not JP
so is not going to need/hold a 4-8k edge

http://www.ludwigschiffcutlery.com/Chefs.htm


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## daveb (Dec 29, 2017)

I'll also suggest a middle stone as better serving the OP. My pick would be the Bestor 1200 and if resources are there add the Suehiro 5K. This is my favorite combo for Euro (German) knives/steel.


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## nutmeg (Dec 30, 2017)

In order to avoid an overkill I would bet on a #1000 (Ai#1000 for example) and the most economical way to keep it flat, it can be a piece of building stone.
Or an economical #1200 diamond stone alone, depending on which of both solution is the less expensive including shipping.


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## Matus (Dec 30, 2017)

Get a Shapton Pro (kuromaku) 1000, it one of the fastest stones out there and has a very nice feedback - and learn to use it well. Later get a stone in the 4000 - 6000 range. And even later a 300 - 400.


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## K813zra (Dec 30, 2017)

Matus said:


> Get a Shapton Pro (kuromaku) 1000, it one of the fastest stones out there and has a very nice feedback - and learn to use it well. Later get a stone in the 4000 - 6000 range. And even later a 300 - 400.



+1 I really like this stone too. After trying a dozen stones or so in that range it is still my go to.


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## rick alen (Dec 30, 2017)

Before the term "German steel" gets used around here again, Ludwigs' are Swedish stainless, but which alloy is still a mystery. 12C27 and 14C28 have been used by French companies.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/04/dining/ludwig-schiff-knives-wont-shred-a-budget.html

Whichever one it is I don't think a 6K stone is out of the question.

If we could get some more info on them these knives might deserve some play when economy knives come up.


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## Benuser (Dec 30, 2017)

Any other source about the steel type? I fear some carefully installed misunderstanding, about Krupp's 4116 from Swedish ore. IIRC Schiff advised a 20 degree per side sharpening angle, that makes me a bit suspicious.


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## rick alen (Dec 30, 2017)

I already sent them an email requesting that info and any place around beantown here where I could get a closer look at them. I've just been fascinated lately with finding unrecognized/new contenders for the best of <$100 mark.


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## HRC_64 (Dec 30, 2017)

the nyt says the knife is tempered in germany
and has been since 1970's


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## alterwisser (Dec 30, 2017)

Poor OP is probably more confused now than ever before haha!!! If you have ONE knife and dont intend to get a lot more or a lot deeper into this rabbit hole just get a combo stone, with a finer and a coarser grit. I think you can get a king combo (1000/4000 or something like that) pretty cheap on the bay..... 

IIRC Watanabe sharpens only with 1000 and 4000 grit, and only synthetic. I might be wrong, what Im just saying: most here are knife and stone nuts, you dont need that kind of gear to get started ....


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## gaijin (Dec 30, 2017)

My first stone was this KING 1000/6000: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DT1X9O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Combine with a method to flatten the stone, and watch some tutorials on youtube and you have a cheap and not to shabby start...


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## Grunt173 (Dec 30, 2017)

I have the King Deluxe 1k/6k combination stone and used it for a while but I feel that money spent on a 1K Shapton Pro is money well spent and is my choice over the King Combo. Either will work however but you won't grow out of the SP and you can add more SP stones from there if you want to pursue sharpening more.Then of course,you'll need a coarser stone like say a SP320 and a finishing stone like maybe a SP5K. I seldom go pass 5 K and on Stainless knives,never pass 2 k. So OP, I say get the 1k for now and if you like sharpening,the other stones are just a click away.


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## nutmeg (Dec 30, 2017)

or how much does it cost to let it sharpen twice a year at your local dealer? $10 each time or so?


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## Benuser (Dec 30, 2017)

Some are great, most not -- take away far too much steel and overheat what is left. A stone sharpening though will cost some $30.


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## rickg17 (Dec 30, 2017)

So as a fairly new j-knife person, I think a lot of the above is over the top for someone new. Keep in mind all, that OP is new to the sharpening game, not an enthusiast. 

I actually got a combo stone before my first j-knife (a 1k/3k no name stone (meaning I can't remember the name)) and it's been OK. That would be my recommendation to start (or two stones in those grit ranges).

OP - sharpening isn't hard but can be nervewracking esp if your knife is expensive or you're really worried about screwing it up. On the one hand, you can always have it professionally fixed if you do screw it up but on the other... if you do some basic video review and go slow, you will be fine. Start here - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB and review the basics at least. 

Everyone above knows more than I do about this... but my feeling is that a ~1k stone and a ~3-4k stone will be all you need for a long long time, perhaps ever. There's a couple of really good sharpening people in my city so if I ever really screw up a blade, I'd just have it professionally fixed. You might really get into this and decide to dive in. At some point, it's all personal choice.


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## StonedEdge (Dec 30, 2017)

I say get something under 1K so you can remove metal quick and no need to go as high as 6k IMO


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## reapernazara (Dec 31, 2017)

It seems like 1k is the majority of suggestions here. So I'm going to look at some of these 1k's. I'm gonna go for quality over a combo. They're not horribly expensive, and when I do things I do like to start out at least in a decent place. I've learned that too low quality makes things unenjoyable and more tedious, and pretty much always leaves me giving up.


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## Grunt173 (Dec 31, 2017)

reapernazara said:


> It seems like 1k is the majority of suggestions here. So I'm going to look at some of these 1k's. I'm gonna go for quality over a combo. They're not horribly expensive, and when I do things I do like to start out at least in a decent place. I've learned that too low quality makes things unenjoyable and more tedious, and pretty much always leaves me giving up.



Me too.


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## Benuser (Dec 31, 2017)

rick alen said:


> I already sent them an email requesting that info and any place around beantown here where I could get a closer look at them. I've just been fascinated lately with finding unrecognized/new contenders for the best of <$100 mark.


About Ludwig Schiff:
Never seen them in Europe, and didn't get any hit on messerforum.net
Curious who actually makes them, my guess would be Burgvogel, who produces Messermeister for the American market. 
Would make the use of any Sandvik instead of Krupp a bit unlikely.
Still relevant in this thread, as the use of Krupp's 4116 makes fine stones counter-productive. I use Choseras 400 and 800 with them -- JIS 500 & 1200. That steel just doesn't hold finer polished edges.


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## rick alen (Jan 3, 2018)

Well I heard back from Schiff, even talked to the owner, Robin Schiff, on the phone. Interestingly she does not know the alloy(s) used, but insists they are of Swedish origin, not German. She went on to say she uses several small knife-makers in Germany, they apparently choose their own alloys, and some claims that I will not repeat here as I do not wish to so call her credibility into question on a public forum. 

It is apparent the the owner has no personal knowledge of knives, and she could give me no specifics as to what made their knives so "fantastic." She did give the RC as 58. These knives are for the American market, sold word of mouth, so no wonder they do not show up in Europe anywhere.

One thing interesting, she told me that most of her customers, mostly professionals, go for full bolsters, the feedback given is they find them easier on the wrist.


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## rick alen (Jan 4, 2018)

Oh yeh, in conclusion, Ludwig Schiff knives are, of course, most likely of 4116 stainless as Benuser suggested, but possibly a better value than some of the typical Henkles and Wusthof offerings. The Schiff family were never knife makers or experts here in any way, they are sales people.


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