# Discourse on why I love Chinese Cleavers re-post



## Andy777

I've had some requests to re-post my "Discourse on Why I Love Chinese Cleavers" post from 7 years ago on KF. So take a stroll down memory lane and enjoy! Maybe we can convert a few more to the fold. Oh and by the way, I figured I'd re-post my cleaver technique post from back then too. Keep in mind I never claimed to be an expert, I just love using cleavers and watched a lot of the original Iron Chef. :biggrin: Without further ado, here are the posts. 
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I know many people out there wonder why I am so fond of chinese cleavers. Some people recently have had some questions on the subject so I not-so-briefly put it into words.

First let me get this out of the way. Chinese cleavers just look really cool. I mean come on, who doesn't like the look of a shiny 9"x4" razor sharp piece of metal. Everytime I use one I feel like I'm in the back alleys of chinatown cutting the heads off ducks. Is that enough to love cleavers? No. Secondly I prefer a light thin vegetable cleaver that is what I'll be discussing. 

In my ever so humble opinion chinese cleavers shouldn't be rocked. At least not in the sense of keeping the tip of the knife always on the board. If you try to use a cleaver the way you use a chef's knife with the tip never leaving the board you will be left thinking "why heck am I using this giant clumsy cumbersome knife, my gyuto is so much better" and you would be right. Is there some rocking involved in using one? Of course. I think there are three style of cut in which the cleaver excels: 1) the usaba or push cut. 2) the straight up and down chop with one end just barely leading and the other, landing a split second thereafter for a slight rock at the end (Iron Chef Chen Kenichi is the master of this when you see his machine gun chop it looks like a wild flayling but if you slow it down it is very accurate and deliberate.) 3) What I like to call the "stab and drag" technique, which is leaving the tip of the cleaver on the board and having the blade at a 35 degree angle to the board, then you just drag the cleaver and slice whatever is in it's path. 

Why do cleavers cut so great? I think one element is the fact that they can have the weight of a german knife (or more) with the super thin blade profile of a japanese knife. The best of both worlds in a sense. This is why I think that a $20 chinatown clever cuts better in many ways than a $100 german knife. The weight of the knife does all the cutting you just need to lift it up and guide it as it falls. The super thin blade allows them to cut much better than any german knife could. When I cut a tomato with a cleaver I just set the edge on the skin and push forward, with never a thought of pushing down, and it cuts like butter.

Sometimes when doing many thin cuts with the tip of a chef's knife you have to exert because of the leverage constraint. In my opinion any time you exert you sacrifice accuracy. On a cleaver you have 4 inches of steel backing the tip up. Thin japanese gyutos are much better in this regard but you get the idea.

In an odd way I feel I have more control with a cleaver. Some may say that the large size is dificult to manage. I would disagree. With the big square cleaver I know where all of the knife is at all times. I'm never going to get caught by a stray tip because the knife turned. It's similar to the fact that you would have to go out of your way to be hit by a bus, you see it coming from a mile away. There is a larger margin of error when cutting with the middle knuckle parallel to the blade. With a normal knife as I put my knuckle paralell I can't lift the blade too high or I could cut myself but if I lift my finger too high it will be over the top of the spine. With the cleaver the sky is the limit as to how far I can lift. I raise my knuckle just above the product and I have 4 inches of leeway before my knuckle is over or under the knife.

Also when doing super fine delicate cuts where I need lots of control I use my 3 fingers and thumb to hold the product and I lift my index finger and place the fingertip on the side of the cleaver 2 or 3 inches away from the edge. I leave my finger in the same spot and lift it up and down with the knife. This technique is what I used when cutting the potato fans I did a while back. It was super fast and very easy to be accurate with each cut. Try doing that with a chef's knife.

My perfect cleaver would be large 22-24cm, wide 10-12cm, and as thin as possible. For a cleaver that size the weight should fall between 400-475g. However, the more I have used my Watanabe cleaver (which weighs in at 520g) the more I really don't mind the extra weight. The other day I chopped with it for 30 minutes and wasn't fatigued. I just need to remember to let the cleaver do all the work. Most of the high end Japanese made cleavers fall between 500-550g which I have started to shy away from, but I may rethink that and give them more of a chance.

I also don't need as much curve as most. A perfectly straight edge is definetly a No. All you need is a slight curve for the cleaver to fall smoothly and not jarringly like happens with a perfectly flat edge. In my opinion if the middle of the edge is on the board the two ends should lift up only 4 or 5mm to be effective. More curve is acceptable as well, the ends on the Watanabe for instance probably lift 7 or 8mm.

Recently I have had a chance to use a couple cleavers with longer handles. It is really growing on me. I can say I prefer that style.

Since the car analogy is so popular I'll continue it. Some would compare a chinese cleaver to a truck and a thin graceful gyuto to a Porche. I however, would argue that a good chinese cleaver is much like a Bently, bigger than most sports cars but faster, smoother and more maneuverable than many in the lot. (I'm no car expert but you know what I mean.)


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## Andy777

*Cleaver technique repost*

I don't consider myself a cleaver expert. However I get quite a bit of email questions about cleavers I figured why not post some of my answers so everyone can read them. Lots of the info is pretty simplistic, but they are all answers to questions I've received multiple times. Considering that there is literally no information available on cleavers on the internet, I hope some people will find the information useful. Most of this information applies to the thin "slicer" type cleavers that are large 22x11cm and relatively light 400-475 grams. much info won't prove useful on smaller 8"x3" cleavers (such as the popular Dexter.) I'll organize this as a simple Q&A. 

How should I hold a cleaver? 

The proper way to hold a cleaver is the pinch-grip method. I use both a one-finger and a a two finger pinch grip ( I call this the Chen Kenichi grip.) The one-finger method is easier to use on quicker and less articulate cutting. The two-finger method gives a lot more blade control and balance for articulate cutting. 







What exactly is the push-cut method? 

The push cut method is the most common technique used with a cleaver. You keep the blade horizontal to the board and move slightly forward as you allow the blade to fall downward. Here is one of my world famous drawings giving a good idea of the technique. This allows the edge to slice as it chops. It's a very simple technique with only one thing that you need to watch. Many people have way too much horizontal movement when they push-cut. From my experience the blade should only move about 1/4" forward for every 1" of vertical movement. 

I get very tired after using a cleaver for a very short period, what should I do? 

The most important thing to remember about cleavers is to let the blade do all the work. The large size yet super thin profile allows the blade to slice with ease and use it's own weight to do the cutting instead of through your own effort. When you do anything other than simply "guide" the cleaver you will tire easily. 

Can you use a straight up and down chop with a hard-steeled Japanese cleaver with out worry of damaging the blade? 

Yes you can chop with a thin sharp hard steeled cleaver with no problems. About 50% of the cutting I do with a cleaver is a straight up and down chop. Most of the cleavers I own are noticeably thinner at the edge than a gyuto and have rc63+ steel. I still have yet to chip an edge on a cleaver or suffer premature dulling. 

After trying to explain my cleaver technique to many people I came up with a foolproof exercise to learn to use a cleaver properly. This exercise solves the three main problems people confront when learning to use a cleaver. It will teach you the proper push cut form, how to use a cleaver without tiring, and how to chop with a cleaver without severely dulling or damaging the blade. 

First, gather a couple food items for practicing your cleaver technique. I like potatoes and a large thick skinned fruit like an orange. Place the tip of your cleaver on top of the product as shown in the previous drawing. 





Gently hold the butt of the cleaver handle with two or three fingers so you are merely stabilizing it from falling, no more. Gently guide the cleaver forward as it literally falls through the food. You will notice that on the potato the cleaver will only need ~1/2" of forward movement to cut all the way through to the board. Many times all the cleaver needs is a 1/8" push forward to break the surface tension and it will fall directly through the food will no more effort. Practice this several times until you have a good idea of the principal. The purpose of this is really just to see how little or no downward pressure is necessary to cut with your cleaver.

Next, do the same exercise as before but with a proper grip. Make sure to just lightly hold the cleaver and let the weight and edge do all the cutting. Your forearm, wrist, and hand should be loose and relaxed. I recommend you solely use this technique until you have a really good understanding of the amount of pressure and effort to use. Occasionally large, fibrous, wet, or sticky items, such as large pieces of meat or a giant onion, will need some slight downward effort on your part. Once you have mastered the no effort technique it will be easy for you to add small amounts of pressure as needed. 

Throughout your practice with and use of the cleaver pay close attention to how hard the cleaver is hitting the board. This is how hard the cleaver should be hitting the board when you do a standard chop. With practice you will be able to switch between a push-cut and chop with ease and very little edge deterioration. 

In my "Discourse on why I love chinese cleavers" post I discussed how I find a cleaver superior for safely holding items with the left hand while cutting with your right. The proper technique for cutting safely involves tucking your thumb and finger tips back while keeping your middle knuckes parallel to the side of the knife. You rest your fingers against the blade and you move the knife up and down never bringing the edge above your knuckles. This effectively protects your holding hand. With the wider blade of a cleaver you will have more clearance over the food because you can raise your fingers up higher. You can even use the tip of your finger to guide the blade. I mention this because I found a perfect example of this technique from a challenger on Iron Chef and I was able to take some excellent pictures of this technique in action.


















Next time your itching to try something different in the world of kichen cutlery maybe you'll give a chinese cleaver a try.


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## don

This is great, especially for those (like me) who didn't get a chance to read it the first time. Thanks for re-posting on KKF.


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## heirkb

Great post, thanks! Now I want to try a cleaver.


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## Crothcipt

I have been wanting to try a clever for a few years, now I am really itching to get one and show others. Great post it put in perspective what I had in my mind


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## hax9215

For someone who says he is no cleaver expert, you understand the techniques very well for an American. I have been using these things for years as a station knife, one of the reasons being you can lean it against something on your station and then grab it easily. :theline: I did not really understand them until I helped too manage a Chinese kitchen in Bermuda and watched the cooks use them for everything; Thong Chai and his cooks made fun of me (privately, Guanxi would preclude any direct teasing) for carrying around a bag full of knives when I used a cleaver on the line. I keep one finger out on the blade and my middle finger and thumb in a pinch grip on the bolster; I adjust this a little when I use the heavier version. I actually use a bit of a draw cut when chopping, and rock up from the heel.

When slicing, I lay my index finger on the top of the spine and use a once forward-and-back saw motion with the tip just barely touching the board-most of the movement is in the elbow with the shoulders at an angle and the body slightly bent over the food being cut. This knife is not for placing tip done and moving up and down at the heel. 

I have been using Dexter carbons or my Wusthof my whole career, I just found the JCK site a few years ago. Thong Chai had a set of Masahiro sushi knives, but they saw little use at Chopsticks. I love this forum, I used to think I was obsessive about my blades, but here I fit right in! :biggrin: Learning a lot about custom knives, plus a whole new level of sharpening. Took delivery of a Saji Chukabocho from JCK a month ago, and am still freaking out over the edge and beauty of the damascus finish. Okay, there is mine! :2cents: Cleaver nation, let's hear it!

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## Deckhand

Thank you for the post.


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## quantumcloud509

Thanks Andy. Great post!


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## dragonlord

Really informative post, I really enjoyed it as it was well written and clearly illustrated your points.


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## slowtyper

I don't like my cck because it made me feel stupid about my last two expensive Japanese knife purchase. Such a fun knife to use.


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## Justin0505

Always great to see you're still alive and cleavering! Thanks again for the post. It should really get a sticky or be filed away in the knowledge center as reference and for future generations of members.

Your point about the combination of thinness and weight is so true and important to realize. A cleaver just has soo much distance over which to thin out that even a cheap, roughly forged and ground cleaver like a CCK is going to embarrass a lot of very expensive and much more carefully made knives when it comes to falling though food.


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## quantumcloud509

What would you guys recommend for a chopping cleaver if I wanted one with an octagonal wa-style handle?


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## jaybett

quantumcloud509 said:


> What would you guys recommend for a chopping cleaver if I wanted one with an octagonal wa-style handle?


Do you want a cleaver for chopping through ribs or vegetables?

Most of the cleavers that Andy prefers are known as thin or slicing cleavers. The cleavers that I like are the medium or chopping cleaver. It would be the same difference between a laser and work horse gyuto. 

Because of the weight of a cleaver, they are held more by the blade, with the thumb and finger extending down the blade. The ring finger and pinky are more for guiding the cleaver. A shorter handle is better for a cleaver. The two shapes that work the best are the round handles that taper down to the knife and the rectangular that also taper down. If the handle doesn't taper, then it can be uncomfortable on the ring finger. 

The problem with Wa Handles on a cleaver is that they are too long. They have a tendency to get in the way. 

Moritaka and Takeda put Wa Handles on their cleavers. I can't think of any other makers, right now of the top of my head, who are using Wa-Handles. 

Another idea would be to try Jon at JKI, and see if he could have something custom made.

Jay


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## JasonD

Thank you for the repost! Time to give my Sugimoto a workout after reading this great thread. I must try your training routine with the potatoe and orange. As a home cook, I don't get nearly enough practice to really drill in that muscle memory with my knives that one acquires in a professional setting... But, it never hurts to try anyways!


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## Tristan

Now is a good time for anyone who has been wanting to pass on a cleaver to hit the B/S/T...


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## heirkb

Anyone know of a good stainless one? It seems Gesshin Ginga/Ashi is the only one I could find.


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## Pensacola Tiger

heirkb said:


> Anyone know of a good stainless one? It seems Gesshin Ginga/Ashi is the only one I could find.



Hattori FH-15 Chinese Cleaver (VG10 Stainless Steel Blade)
Hontanren Series Chinese Cleaver # 6 (Solid Pure Sweden Stainless Steel Blade, Ebony wood handle) 
Misono 440 Series Chinese Cleaver
Misono Chinese Cleaver (Molybdenum steel)
all at
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html

Tadatsuna makes one, but I can't find a link to a vendor.


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## joec

Still a great article Andy. Enjoyed it then and still do but then with me it was preaching to the choir. :ggodjob:


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## Cadillac J

Suien VC was one of my earlier j-knives a few years ago after reading through this and your cleaver rating posts.

Just a shame that I could never get into them like I wanted to...even tried the Kagayaki later on for the same length but with a shorter blade height, but I just seem to like a gyuto or suji much better--I'm sorry to disappoint both Andy and JoeC


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## malacara

Thanks for the articles Andy. I found them few years ago and it was extremely useful. 

I started cooking ten or more years ago and by that time I became interested in good cooking knives too. I firstly got myself a nice chef´s knife, then a Henckels and after that a Shun. Few years later I started watching Martin Yan cooking programs and I wanted to try a chinese cleaver, and when I did... bloody hell, after a few days using it I got hooked. I started reading kitchen knife forums just to know more about cleavers and it is then when I knew of Andy777 and his valuable posts. I have ended giving away all my chef knives and buying cleavers. Nowadays I have a bunch of cleavers and two pettys, and that´s it. And I can´t be happier.



> Quote Originally Posted by heirkb View Post
> Anyone know of a good stainless one? It seems Gesshin Ginga/Ashi is the only one I could find.
> Hattori FH-15 Chinese Cleaver (VG10 Stainless Steel Blade)
> Hontanren Series Chinese Cleaver # 6 (Solid Pure Sweden Stainless Steel Blade, Ebony wood handle)
> Misono 440 Series Chinese Cleaver
> Misono Chinese Cleaver (Molybdenum steel)
> all at
> http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html
> 
> Tadatsuna makes one, but I can't find a link to a vendor.



I bought mine from here: http://www.itkitchenknife.com (I was going to put a direct link of the cleaver I got but the web doesn´t seem to be working today) and very pleased with the transaction


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## Andy777

Thanks for the kind words everyone. It's kind of a trip to read these a bunch of years later I have to say. They could probably use a little updating but oh well. 



> Suien VC was one of my earlier j-knives a few years ago after reading through this and your cleaver rating posts.
> 
> Just a shame that I could never get into them like I wanted to...even tried the Kagayaki later on for the same length but with a shorter blade height, but I just seem to like a gyuto or suji much better--I'm sorry to disappoint both Andy and JoeC



I'll forgive you, it may take a while but I'll get there. :wink:



> Thanks for the articles Andy. I found them few years ago and it was extremely useful.
> 
> I started cooking ten or more years ago and by that time I became interested in good cooking knives too. I firstly got myself a nice chef´s knife, then a Henckels and after that a Shun. Few years later I started watching Martin Yan cooking programs and I wanted to try a chinese cleaver, and when I did... bloody hell, after a few days using it I got hooked. I started reading kitchen knife forums just to know more about cleavers and it is then when I knew of Andy777 and his valuable posts. I have ended giving away all my chef knives and buying cleavers. Nowadays I have a bunch of cleavers and two pettys, and that´s it. And I can´t be happier.



I'm glad you have fully embraced the dark side. :knife: I have a Tadatsuna, the carbon version and love it. I know we've discussed your stainless Tadatsuna before. I'd like to hear more about it though. I can't remember, have you posted pics of it before? What are you waiting for??? 

As far as other stainless ones go, other than those mentioned there are quite a few here:

Ichimonji

Sakai Takayuki

I'm pretty sure someone on here has ordered from ichimonji before.


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## Dave Martell

Thanks for posting this again Andy


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## mpukas

No thread about cleavers is complete without a clip of Martin Yan. :biggrin:

[video=youtube;5-UUWWig-pU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-UUWWig-pU&feature=channel[/video]


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## hax9215

Anyone know where to find one of his cleavers?

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## Deckhand

hax9215 said:


> Anyone know where to find one of his cleavers?
> 
> Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!



Currently
Ebay starting bid at $50.99 Martin Yan's Signature Knife.Autographed.Package Never Opened!

That is a copy paste hope it helps.


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## sw2geeks

I went to a cooking class with Martin Yan a couple of years ago at my Central Market. It was really great seeing him use a cleaver. 

He was selling his cleaver and latest book at the class. Looked like his current cleaver that he was selling was a little odd in shape. It had a lot of curve starting midway up the blade. It also seemed a little short and had a rounded corner. 

He demoed the knife for about 5 minutes then promptly went back to using a more traditionaly shaped cleaver to teach the class.


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## mpukas

hax9215 said:


> Anyone know where to find one of his cleavers?
> 
> Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!



He sells them directly on his website - http://yancancook.com/store/knives01.htm - "_Made with high-carbon stainless steel blade._ " 
I've been considering getting one for some time just to check it out. I like the little design tweaks like the slightly flared ends. Looks to be a different knife design than the one he's using the above vid which is quite old now. Not a bad price and it's made in Germoney. 

Uh-oh - I just realized I may have let the cat outta the bag, and if I wanna get one I should get one soon! :eek2:


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## mpukas

Looking at his cleaver at his on-line store more, it appears it's got more belly than an authentic chinese chef's knife. I now think that the deisgn is more marketing driven than function driven. Been quite a while since I looked at it am I'm getting spoiled around here... :biggrin:


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## hax9215

I started to buy one of his cleavers several years ago, but balked at the $199.00 (Funny how 10 years will change your perspective!) It was a full size traditional shape. I will get one of these, if for no other reason than that he went to culinary school at Sullivan where I am currently pursuing a PhD. Thanks for the info! CLEAVER NATION ARISE!!!! :zipper:

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## quantumcloud509

Ok so whats the story w/ nakiris? Kinda like a cleaver but not really. Anyone here have experience on the line with them?


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## Bishopmaker

WOW that really makes me wanan try and make one. Never seen someone cook with one but that just makes me wanna do it even more! lol


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## Crothcipt

welcome aboard Bishop!!


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## SpikeC

Sounds like Bishop needs to see Chen work on ICJ!
And welcome to the Knut House!


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## Bishopmaker

When I first saw one I was like thats way too big to be useful but after seeing a few youtube videos it makes sense.


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## hax9215

Try one, I DARE you!!! When used properly they are the closest thing to an all-pupose knife IMHO.

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## sachem allison

mpukas said:


> No thread about cleavers is complete without a clip of Martin Yan. :biggrin:
> 
> [video=youtube;5-UUWWig-pU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-UUWWig-pU&feature=channel[/video]



he is really good friends with one of my old chefs Bill Sy. one day they decided to see who could bone out a whole chicken with the cleaver the fastest. Martin won with 10 seconds and chef lost with 12 seconds. it was an amazing thing to watch.


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## slowtyper

i love martin yan, great television personality, would love to see more of him!


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## Bishopmaker

slowtyper said:


> i love martin yan, great television personality, would love to see more of him!


I agree!


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## mpukas

sachem allison said:


> he is really good friends with one of my old chefs Bill Sy. one day they decided to see who could bone out a whole chicken with the cleaver the fastest. Martin won with 10 seconds and chef lost with 12 seconds. it was an amazing thing to watch.



Wow that's fast! But honestly, how is the quality of the peices when they are cut up so fast? Is there much waste?


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## quantumcloud509

The owner of the BBQ restaurant that I work at spent two days cooking besides Martin Yan at the university he went to in Montana. Said he was really nice and funny around people and media but once in the kitchen alone with him he was a hellbender. 

Also, I am in love with my andy777 rehandled Takeda Large. Kicks ass. I havent been picking up the guyoto or paring knife much even.


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## Duckfat

I think I just heard my old Dexter whimper a little... LOL
I've wanted to upgrade that to a Sugimoto for the longest but every time I decide to spend more it goes on something different. I used to buy lots of Dexters around ten bucks apiece and pass them out to my cooks. I've had a cleaver in my kit for years.

Dave


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## slowtyper

I encourage posting of more cool cleaver vids


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## joec

Duckfat said:


> I think I just heard my old Dexter whimper a little... LOL
> I've wanted to upgrade that to a Sugimoto for the longest but every time I decide to spend more it goes on something different. I used to buy lots of Dexters around ten bucks apiece and pass them out to my cooks. I've had a cleaver in my kit for years.
> 
> Dave



I actually started with a dexter cleaver and a disposable paring knife as my only knives for well over 30 years. Still have that dexter too though Dave turned it into what I would describe as a duck knife or a Nakiri on steroids.


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## hax9215

I was first introduced to Chukabochos with a Dexter cleaver in 1980 by a CIA instructor named Joe Amendola. It was all-carbon, cost $25.00, and gave me pause regarding my high-end set of Chro-Mo-Vanadium Wusthofs. I have been using a cleaver as a line knife ever since! While I am elated with my Saji Damascus claver that i just bought, I cannot say with a straight face that it works 14 times better than a Dexter I could get for $50.00 on Ebay. It does have a more durable scary-sharp edge than anything I have ever used; I suspect this is an effect of the hand-forging and heat treating but that is only conjecture. I believe the superior design viv-a'-vis the long, gradual taper on the tall blade pecipitates superior performance with average steel and outstanding with high-end versions. You constantly hear about someone using a cleaver and then using it to the exclusion of their other knives; this should tell you someting about this type of knife. (See below!)

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## Duckfat

joec said:


> I actually started with a dexter cleaver and a disposable paring knife as my only knives for well over 30 years. Still have that dexter too though Dave turned it into what I would describe as a duck knife or a Nakiri on steroids.



Joe is there any chance you could post a photo of that? It sounds awesome!

Dave


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## malacara

> I'm glad you have fully embraced the dark side. I have a Tadatsuna, the carbon version and love it. I know we've discussed your stainless Tadatsuna before. I'd like to hear more about it though. I can't remember, have you posted pics of it before? What are you waiting for???



Here are some pics of the Tadatsuna INOX. It took me a while :O. Sorry for the quality though. I took some other photos that I´m uploading as well. 

Regards

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/tadatsunainox001.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/tadatsunainox002.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/tadatsuna003.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/tadatsunainoxspine.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/cleavers.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/mizunostainless.jpg/


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## mpukas

I guess I've got a closet cheap cleaver fetish. 





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Top is my newest addition F/ Pacific Ocean Marketplace
CCK 1301 f/ Mark
Cheap bone bone chopper f/ POM
Cheap Little Cook cleaver f/ POM
Henkles bone chopper I've had from my Mom for years and years...


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## mpukas

My latest aquisition f/ Pacific Ocean Marketplace in Broomfield, CO - stain free high carbon cleaver for $17.99. This was a new shipment they got in, and surprisingly some of the better cleavers I've seen there. They also had a couple of other versions w/ different wood handles and different steels, but the steel was not described. They were $18.99 & $19.99. I got this one because of the stain free high carbon marking on the blade. Who knows what it is??? 

Surprisingly good cleaver. I really like the size in it's proportion of length to height. I like the size and proportion better than the 1301. This one was one of the straighter ones I found. The other models seemed to be staighter from the handle to the blade and better fit of the bolster. All in all, I've seen much worse on knives more expensive. There isn't much of an edge to speak of - there's a small edge bevel that's probably about 30d per side, Still it was sharp enough to cut a couple of arm hairs and chop some onions, garlic, peppers for a quick veggie stir fry. 

Quite a bit of curve to the edge, with no flat areas. No taper at all. When I first looked at it, I thought it had just a flat grind f/ spine to edge. But surprisingly again, there's a large bevel ground into the face about 1/2 down from the spine to edge. The secopndary bevel on each side isn't symetrical though. I plan on thinning it trying to match the existing bevels but equalling them out on each side, and put a new primary bevel on it, and maybe flatten the edge geometry a bit. Practice project knife! mpp

(not sure why but some of the photos came in f/ photobucket rotated)



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## chazmtb

For the last 2-3 months, I don't know what a gyuto is anymore. I have been using my Suien VC cleaver and Moritaka double bevel kiritsuke for most of what I use a gyuto for. The Suien is used for heavy duty veggie chopping and cutting of meats, even chopping up chicken/bones and the like. The Kiritsuke is used for more fine controlled push cutting. Mainly, I have been using the cleaver because most of my cooking has been Asian styled. I really like it. Also, I am quickly becoming a fan of carbon, and especially AS blue. Man, the sharpness of this steel lasts a long time.


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## kalaeb

chazmtb said:


> For the last 2-3 months, I don't know what a gyuto is anymore. I have been using my Suien VC cleaver and Moritaka double bevel kiritsuke for most of what I use a gyuto for. The Suien is used for heavy duty veggie chopping and cutting of meats, even chopping up chicken/bones and the like. The Kiritsuke is used for more fine controlled push cutting. Mainly, I have been using the cleaver because most of my cooking has been Asian styled. I really like it. Also, I am quickly becoming a fan of carbon, and especially AS blue. Man, the sharpness of this steel lasts a long time.



I also got the Suien cleaver a few months ago and have been loving it. It has not been babied and takes a pretty good patina. Overall I think my general knife skills have increased as a result of using a cleaver. 

Here is a pic of mine, of course it had to get some new shoes.


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## Crothcipt

wow I need to get down to Bloomfield.


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## mpukas

Yeah, it's a great store (btw, it's Broomfield, CO). One of the biggest and better asian grocery stores in CO. There's one in Denver too, off of Federal Street, but I think this one is better. I would have liked to have snagged one of each of cleavers just to compare, but as cheap as they were, I gotta draw the line somewhere these days...


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## Crothcipt

I ment Broomfield, not sure why I said bloomfield. From what I read about that store it is the best one in the area.


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## birdeye

I hope this is the right thread to post in. I'm looking to get myself a chinese cleaver and would like to go out and see how the knife feels in my hand before buying, as I've never had one before. My problem is that there are not that many manufacturers with a chinese cleaver model that are available in my country (Finland). A Japanese import store in Helsinki carries MAC, and I have heard people buying Victorinox so I assume some stores are carrying it as well. (If you happen to know of others, by all means let me know) I have understood these two are not the best possible options out there... but they seem to be the only ones. Or would it work if I tried either of these to get a feel for the type and then proceeded to order a cleaver online? :scratchhead: I am a complete noob though, so I don't know the differences between different makers' knives. Do you have any advice?


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## kalaeb

birdeye said:


> I hope this is the right thread to post in. I'm looking to get myself a chinese cleaver and would like to go out and see how the knife feels in my hand before buying, as I've never had one before. My problem is that there are not that many manufacturers with a chinese cleaver model that are available in my country (Finland). A Japanese import store in Helsinki carries MAC, and I have heard people buying Victorinox so I assume some stores are carrying it as well. (If you happen to know of others, by all means let me know) I have understood these two are not the best possible options out there... but they seem to be the only ones. Or would it work if I tried either of these to get a feel for the type and then proceeded to order a cleaver online? :scratchhead: I am a complete noob though, so I don't know the differences between different makers' knives. Do you have any advice?



Boy, thats a tough one. Many here never have the opportunity to try, or see it before we buy and often buy based off reccomendations here. I am going to go out on a limb and say there is no China town in Finland. I guess i would buy a cheap CCK to get a feel for it, then base future purchases of what you like and dislike about it. 

Victorinox does have a chinese cleaver, but i have never seen a MAC cleaver.


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## birdeye

Yep no Chinatown, only small import stores in some cities and those usually have foodstuffs only.

I found the MAC cleaver from a PDF info sheet (in Finnish) that was on the import store's site. It's number 120, labeled as "chinese cleaving knife": http://www.tokyokan.fi/mac_veitsiesite_netti.pdf 
It has been there for a while though, I don't know how up-to date the information is.

I have been looking at the CCK cleavers, but they seem to be always out of stock. The only place I know of is chef knives to go, are there other suppliers that ship to Europe? Better yet would be a supplier within EU, but I have a feeling that's more wishful thinking than a reality.


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## Still-edo

Is there a difference in metal quality between the CCK and the Dexter cleavers?


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## birdeye

MAC is out, there is no sight of a chinese cleaver on the import store's website. Victorinox is actually attainable, I'll have to get it online but at least I can get one. CCK is possible but the shipping fees are as much as the price of the knife, plus there is a disclaimer on the site that if the knife gets damaged in any way they cannot be held responsible.
I tried hunting down Dexter but it's only sold in North America it seems. Their official site doesn't list any suppliers in Europe, but I may have been looking at the wrong place. Amazon.com sells it, but they won't ship internationally except for a selected few categories and knives are not among them. The European amazon sites (.uk and .de) didn't have it.

The simplest solution seems to be moving to the US. :scratchhead: I didn't think Europe would ever seem so limited.

Is the Victorinox cleaver worth the 60 the store is charging for it? There are also Wusthof cleavers on the internet at the same price. I haven't heard much of them though, for better or worse.

What do you think of this one? It's cheap and stainless, but what else? It says Japanese steel (&#26085;&#26412;&#37628 on the blade, whatever that means. But it's cheap. 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004PZ5E2U/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Andy777

I would just order something from Koki at www.japanesechefsknife.com, you will get something waaaay better than the Victorinox or Wusthof for not a ton more money.

There are several "less" expensive cleavers on this page http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html, while I haven't personally used those cheaper ones at the top I feel pretty confident in saying they would blow a Victorinox out of the water.


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## malacara

Andy777 said:


> I would just order something from Koki at www.japanesechefsknife.com



+1

I have bought stuff from him a couple of times from Europe (Spain) and I can´t recommend him enough. It´s always been superfast, with extremely cheap shipping fees and with no extra charges at customs. Really easy. Koki´s also always been very kind and helpful.


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## birdeye

Thanks a lot! You guys are really helpful.

This site is dangerous... I'll get a cheaper knife for now to see how I'll like the type. If I do, I might soon have no money to buy food but at least I'll have a nice knife. :laugh:


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## SpikeC

Money comes and goes, butt knives stay.


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## StueGnu

I'm in the same situation as birdeye and would like to hear your opinion on the cleavers available to me

I live i Denmark and can risk paying 40$ + 25% of the order, if i order outside the EU. I have found the following cleavers inside EU.

Zwilling J.A. Henckels Twin Signature 7-Inch Vegetable Cleaver for around 90$ in a local shop.
Weight and steel unknown

JCK Kagayaki KG-25 on the german Ebay for 150$ postage included 
Weight: 380 g

SN1124B Tamahagane San Chinese chef's knife from http://www.millyskitchenstore.co.uk for 236$ postage included
Blade Material: 3-layer steel (core: VG5 / Page: SUS410) 
Weight: 406 g
Hardness: 58-59 HRC


or finally a noname cheap cleaver in a semilocal chinese shop for 20$


The henckels do seem like the most reasonable choice, since i have never used a chinese cleaver. But i really dislike that they can't be bothered to write basic information about it on their website like steeltype and weight. Also from reading a lot about japanese knifes i guess it's also a bad thing that it is german. I also don't find the looks of the plastic handle very nice.

The JCK is a good option, but i have read some reviews about it, saying it's not so great compared to others.

The Tamahagane San is made of a decent steel and i really like the handle. But it worries me that i can't find any opinions about it on the internet. Also i find it weird that it's apparently only sold in a very few shops in Europe.

I'm most tempted to go for the Tahamagane San, but it is so expensive that i could get the Suien VC from http://japanesechefsknife.com and pay the hefty customs for the same price. Do you think it's worth the price compared to the cheaper KG-25 or the Suien VC?

The cleaver will be my first decent knife. I actually started only wanting to replace my cheap santoku knife with another cheap one, but then i started researching on the internet. After some reading i almost ordered a Tojiro nakiri, but after reading this thread and other cleaverenthusiastic threads i feel quite certain that a cleaver would be great for me aswell. I will only use it for vegetables. One could argue that i should just buy a cheap crapcleaver to begin with, but i find it discouraging and not very interesting.

I hope my post won't drown in this long thread


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## chinacats

StueGnu said:


> The cleaver will be my first decent knife. I actually started only wanting to replace my cheap santoku knife with another cheap one, but then i started researching on the internet. After some reading i almost ordered a Tojiro nakiri, but after reading this thread and other cleaverenthusiastic threads i feel quite certain that a cleaver would be great for me aswell. I will only use it for vegetables. One could argue that i should just buy a cheap crapcleaver to begin with, but i find it discouraging and not very interesting.
> 
> I hope my post won't drown in this long thread



Welcome!!

I have a cheap cck large cleaver...the steel is carbon unknown type and rather cheap feeling but it gets very sharp, doesn't weigh a lot and would be an inexpensive way to figure out if you want a cleaver or not...actually the $20 unit locally may be an even better deal then if you enjoy it you can shell out some real money for something that comes more highly recommended.

Cheers


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## jaybett

StueGnu said:


> The JCK is a good option, but i have read some reviews about it, saying it's not so great compared to others.
> 
> The Tamahagane San is made of a decent steel and i really like the handle. But it worries me that i can't find any opinions about it on the internet. Also i find it weird that it's apparently only sold in a very few shops in Europe.
> 
> I'm most tempted to go for the Tahamagane San, but it is so expensive that i could get the Suien VC from http://japanesechefsknife.com and pay the hefty customs for the same price. Do you think it's worth the price compared to the cheaper KG-25 or the Suien VC?
> 
> The cleaver will be my first decent knife. I actually started only wanting to replace my cheap santoku knife with another cheap one, but then i started researching on the internet. After some reading i almost ordered a Tojiro nakiri, but after reading this thread and other cleaverenthusiastic threads i feel quite certain that a cleaver would be great for me aswell. I will only use it for vegetables. One could argue that i should just buy a cheap crapcleaver to begin with, but i find it discouraging and not very interesting.
> 
> I hope my post won't drown in this long thread



Welcome to the Forum. 

The Tahamagane San appears to be a cleaver for home use. Generally cleavers less then 200mm are thought to be more for the home, while cleavers 210mm or greater are for restaurant use. Of course there are always exceptions. 

The Suien VC is a full size cleaver, and what some of us cleaver fans consider to be an ideal size 220mm x 110mm. Cleavers this size weigh between 400-500 grams. And they can weigh considerably more, on a a medium edge or so called chopping cleaver. 

A lot of people who have picked up a cleaver, couldn't put it down fast enough. The size and weight of a cleaver is foreign to most people used to knifes that weigh considerably less, and are not so tall. 

The typical advice for person considering a picking up a cleaver is to find out if the size and weight are going to be a problem. An inexpensive cleaver from an Asian grocery store, will help a person answer that question. 

The next step would be to purchase a Suien VC. It a thin edged, slicing cleaver, that cuts well, and has good carbon steel. It performs nearly as well as cleavers that cost twice as much. 

Most cleavers are rough, when it comes to fit and finish. Nothing that a little sand paper and some elbow grease can't fix.

Cleavers are different enough from western knives, that they take time to learn how to use them and adjust to their size and weight. It took me about a month, before I started to feel comfortable with mine. 

Jay


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## StueGnu

Thanks for your replies. I don't find buying the cheap one very interesting, but i guess you are right about trying a cleaver first. I think it would be hard to sell in Denmark, if i bought the Suien and didnt like it


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## malacara

A CCK cleaver can give you a very good insight on the use of a cleaver for little money. It is also a superb knife: Very thin, light and nimble. I love mine. It can get very sharp and in spite of being made of carbon it is easy to mantein as it has some kind of coating than help to prevent it from rust. 

Regards


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## jaybett

StueGnu said:


> Thanks for your replies. I don't find buying the cheap one very interesting, but i guess you are right about trying a cleaver first. I think it would be hard to sell in Denmark, if i bought the Suien and didnt like it



It depends on your experience, and needs, as to which cleaver to purchase first. Often times forum members are looking for something different to try, so they pick up a small cleaver 200mm or less. It gives a person an idea of what a cleaver can do. Most people stop at this point, deciding cleavers do not work for them. Those who like cleavers, when they try a full size one, find them awkward and unwieldy. I've been involved with the forums for over six years, in that time, I can name only a handful of people who are fans of full size cleavers. Since so few people end up being cleaver fans, that is why a series of cautious steps is advised, instead of taking the plunge.

A common problem for most home cooks and some pro cooks, is a lack of space, especially when large amounts of food need to be prepped. Trying to find a solution to this problem is what caused me to try a cleaver. My first cleaver was a Shun. It improved my productivity enough, that I searched the internet, for more tips and tricks, on how to use cleavers. That search led me to knife forums and Andy's threads, such as this one. The experience with the Shun, was positive, so it was easy to try a full size cleaver. 

I remember being somewhat disappointed, when I opened the box on my first full size cleaver. There was scale on the choil and front of the cleaver. The tang was a rat tail type, with the end being hammered over into a hole on the handle. The knife felt awkward in my hand. It was a far different experience from my Shun santoku, that was so light and nimble, and seemed to cut effortlessly. Andy kept saying that it takes time to adjust to a full size cleaver. It probably took a month of using the cleaver off and on, to get comfortable. 

The size and weight of a cleaver, which most people initially dislike about a cleaver, actually are strengths. It is counter intuitive, but it is much easier to do a fine dice with a larger heavier knife, then a smaller lighter knife. The finest dice, I can do, is with a petty or small sujihiki. I have to concentrate as I make the cuts. On a cleaver, it is almost mindless, lift the cleaver, let it fall. The height of a cleaver offers several advantages. It acts as an edge guard, put it against the knuckles, as long as the blade isn't raised above the knuckles, its hard to cut oneself. It's easy to see where the cuts are going. This is handy on horizontal cuts, where the blade doesn't disappear into the food. The height allows the larger muscles of the forearm to be used. The weight assists with the cut. Also it keeps lateral movements to a minimum. A muscle twinge will barely move a cleaver. 

An unexpected benefit of learning to use a cleaver is that it has improved my overall knife skills. It is similar to the person who trains by running in sand. By learning to use a large heavy knife, I've developed muscle memory that is beneficial when using different types of knives. A 300mm gyuto, does not feel large in my hands, and I am comfortable doing tip work with it. 

Jay


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## sw2geeks

I have actully bought a lot of old Chinese cleavers on eBay to play with and fix up. Don't know what the eBay situation is like in Finland. I am a big cleaver fan, but will say they are big compared to knives. I had my knives in a resent photoshoot and they ended up taking the cleaver out of the shot because it was so much bigger that the rest of my knives. So if you have not held one you might be surprised how big it is.


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## Still-edo

StueGnu said:


> Zwilling J.A. Henckels Twin Signature 7-Inch Vegetable Cleaver for around 90$ in a local shop.
> Weight and steel unknown



I have that. The steel is the standard Henckels Ice hardened dealy. The steel suits my needs. It sharpens easy yet keeps an edge really nicely. It's pretty thin out of the box. I still went ahead and thinned it down. I think the handle is the largest thing to get over. It's really really smooth and on the thin side. So wet hands will have nothing to hold on to. And the balance is really tip heavy so swinging it around for an hour without much of a handle really isn't a great time.

I paid about $40usd for mine. Worth it in my opinion. But next chance I get I'm getting a big cck or dexter. Because of the handle and carbon kicks butt.


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## StueGnu

You convinced me and i just ordered this from the german Amazon. I did it through Google Translate, since i only understand very little german, so it's gonna be interesting what i signed up for :laugh:
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B004PZ5E2U/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

20&#8364; (about 27$). blade is 175 mm and the cleaver weighs 360g. It ended up being cheaper and easier than ordering from the shop in Denmark i thought was the cheapest.

The CCK was not an option since i would have to order it outside the EU and risk paying more in customs than for the cleaver itself.

Jaybett what do you mean with this sentence "There was scale on the choil and front of the cleaver." What part of the cleaver is the choil and what is scale?


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## Crothcipt

Wow that is a good looking cleaver.:thumbsup:


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## StueGnu

Yes it must one of the best looking cleavers i have seen in the pricerange! I hope it's a good ambassadeur for the cleavers ;-)


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## Still-edo

Wow! I wonder if regular amazon has that. I gotta check it out later.


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## Keith Sinclair

Cleaver's & Gyuto have their place in a kit.I would rather clean fish wt. a gyuto,but for many jobs a cleaver will smoke a french style knife.

Back in the 1970's I worked as a banquet cook at Sheraton Waikiki we used to put out 1000+ count banqs. on a regular basis.I was new in a kit. back then would chop large quantities of parsley using 2 12" Forchners one in each hand.

A chinese banq.staff shared the same huge banq. Kit.They would laugh at us using our silly knives.It was at that job that I first saw what could be done wt. a cleaver,these guys could debone a chicken in one fluid motion flipping the bones off the end of the blade into the stock pot.They all used carbon cleavers as they still do today in chinatown.

I learned cleaver skills fr. my buddy Tin Fu.He could clean lobsters so fast wt. a small cleaver.I used several cleavers a heavier bone cleaver for cutting platters of Ginger Chix,3 chix a platter for banquets,as much as 20 platters at a time,you have to work fast or you will never make it in a Union Hotel wt. a limited amount of workers.I would not have made it without learning cleaver skills,& sharp carbon steel blades.


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## Mike9

Those Chinese chef's knives aren't cleavers in the traditional sense IMO and I have a Lamson Chinese knife like that with a thin blade that I would try to put through bone for anything. If you want one for the chop then get a cleaver with some muscle AND backbone - it should weigh more than 1.5lbs and be made of stern stuff. I just got a Zhen 8" VG-10 cleaver that is heavy like 1-3/4 - 2lb with a very nice handle. Get a real butcher's cleaver - you can find some nice vintage pieces on fleebay or second hand stores and getting it back into shape will be a good experience in edge geometry and sharpening.


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## brainsausage

Mike9 said:


> Those Chinese chef's knives aren't cleavers in the traditional sense IMO and I have a Lamson Chinese knife like that with a thin blade that I would try to put through bone for anything. If you want one for the chop then get a cleaver with some muscle AND backbone - it should weigh more than 1.5lbs and be made of stern stuff. I just got a Zhen 8" VG-10 cleaver that is heavy like 1-3/4 - 2lb with a very nice handle. Get a real butcher's cleaver - you can find some nice vintage pieces on fleebay or second hand stores and getting it back into shape will be a good experience in edge geometry and sharpening.



Actually- they are cleavers. Just not the chopper types that you seem to be accustomed to. There is a wide variety of cleavers that are task specific. The typical Chinese style cleaver is a jack of all trades, and better named as the Chinese Chef's knife. It's well suited for fine up to medium duty tasks, and an accomplished chef will make great use of its impressive geometry. They are very versatile. Not suited for blunt trauma chopping, but still very accomplished at butchery fabrication, in conjunction with some heavier tools.


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## DwarvenChef

At work I still break out my CCK 1103 for most tasks. Granted I'm only working as a secondary cutter in the butchery dept but when I close I'm the only one there doing all the cutting. We have an old Dexter bone cleaver that is over a 1/3" across and weighs a ton LOL That and my CCK can do most tasks I need done on my shift 

I really need to get a nice custom for my home kit  I just have to stop buying other things just before those good ones pop up LOL


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## Shinob1

I just received a Nakiri from Dave and am wondering if the techniques in the post will apply to a Nakiri?


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## Justin0505

With a nakiri you don't have the same advantage of the blade weight and balance carrying momentum though the cut, and grip options are a bit different as you won't have enough blade height to do the straight fingered pinch grip or "peace sign." So, as similar as they are, they feel pretty different in use. However, a lot of the cutting motions / techniques are the same. I never thought of it before, but a Nakiri might be a decent stepping stone for a cleaver.


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## Carl

As if I didn't already want a cleaver bad enough already, now I really want 2, one heavy for chopping bones and one thinner for general purpose. shopping shopping shopping.


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## Ragamuffin

I have cooked (at home) for very many years. I go way back guys, to cooking on a woodburning, black iron stove at a farm where I lived. And by the way, those old cookstoves are marvelous cooking tools! I also still cook with cast iron pans and have some 100+ years old.

But on to my thanks to Andy. I had an odd assortment of German blades and Forschner/Victorinox knives. Then I came across Japanese knives. Wow! What an eye opener. I bought some Mac knives and thought I was in heaven. In the course of my looking and learning about all the just so beautiful craftsmanship found in Japanese knives, I came across Andy's article on cleavers.

I set myself a challenge to cook for one week using nothing but a cleaver and paring knife (I also have an old Forschner serrated bread knife for the crusty bread I bake). I purchased a CCK 1303 Cleaver and an inexpensive Tojiro Petty and started cooking.

I have never looked back. I can fully prepare anything here at home with that combination. Of course, I am looking at an upgrade to maybe a Tanaka 150mm, Damascus, Blue Steel Petty and maybe the Tojiro 270 ITK Bread Knife but for now, the CCK stays put.

Sorry to be long winded but a great big thanks to ANDY, for teaching this old dog new tricks! I am a happy cook!


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## SpikeC

Welcome to the Knut House!


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## GlassEye

Welcome


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## chinacats

Welcome, cleavers can be a lot of fun!


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## hax9215

:welcome2:

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## brainsausage

Jesus Hax, you're really drawing a line in the sand with your new sig line, huh?


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## hax9215

Every man should believe in something, I believe in the barbeque!!! :joec:

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## brainsausage

hax9215 said:


> Every man should believe in something, I believe in the barbeque!!! :joec:
> 
> Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!



At least we can both agree that CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## Carl

I guess I kinda draw the line with mine too... I agree cleavers rule tho.


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## Ragamuffin

Thanks for all the welcomes to me on my last posting but my first posting on this forum!Thanks guys!

I just wanted to give an update on my cleaver adventures. I mentioned in my previous post that I was running my kitchen solely with a Tojiro 120mm petty, a CCK 1303 Cleaver and a Victorinox/Forschner serrated bread knife.

I bake crusty bread (Jim Leahey's no-knead recipe) at home every week and the Victorinox gets a workout.

My latest loaf of bread had completely cooled off and as I was reaching for the serrated knife, I glanced over at the CCK. The CCK said "Try me! Go ahead and try me on that crusty loaf. I dare you!" I said "OK, loudmouth, you're on!" I dropped the Victorinox.

I grabbed the cleaver and lined up on the bread expecting the cleaver to slip and slide on the crust. WRONG! It bit into the bread (Light Saber loud humming noise in background) and slid through the bread like Obi Wan Kenobi's light saber. Zap! Big slice of bread on cutting board with almost no effort.

I was amazed. Another and another slice. Same story. It was miles ahead of the serrated knife for slicing the bread! I put the CCK back on the mag holder and it looked at me and said, "Never doubt what we cleavers can do! Cleavers Rule!!"

Amen, brothers, Victorinox now is in storage drawer. CCK 1303 stands proudly up front waiting for its next mission.

By the way, I just got in yesterday a very beautiful, Tanaka 150mm, blue steel, Damascus Petty to upgrade my petty choices. I haven't really tried it out yet but I am looking forward to working with it.

Meanwhile, as Andy says: "CLEAVERS RULE!!":thumbsup:


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## RoanRoks29

So I recently just bought a Clever and today was the first day I used it on the line! It was amazing! I need some more practice with it but it was a sweet knife to work with!!! Its a sweet Shibazi clever ! p.s. Love Martian Yan!!


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## hax9215

The thing about cleavers is that they tend to replace your whole knife kit; by the time you take out the case and open it you can make your cuts' pick up your cut product, and move on. I will frequently bring out my Wusthofs just on principle, not because I really need them.

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


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## quantumcloud509

Still the best thread ever.


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## BertMor

I can't believe igts been 7 years! Great post then and still is. Thanks Andy


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## TheDispossessed

just got a togiharu cleaver from JMac this week. it came in excellent condition, 5 minutes on a cheap combo (1k/4k) stone and its just melting through food. i think it's white #2, but i can't be sure, the make seems identical to the yoshihiro (for that matter, it looks like the togiharu damascus knives and the yoshihiros are identical as well). this is my new favorite knife. coming in at a little under 400g it still feels nimble and i prepared an entire dinner with it for 6 people. shaved sunchokes and fennel, citrus segments, this thing is really versatile, highly recommended. makes me wonder about all my other knives that cost three times as much!
i just couldn't get down with those hideous looking handles on the CCKs...


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## brainsausage

TheDispossessed said:


> just got a togiharu cleaver from JMac this week. it came in excellent condition, 5 minutes on a cheap combo (1k/4k) stone and its just melting through food. i think it's white #2, but i can't be sure, the make seems identical to the yoshihiro (for that matter, it looks like the togiharu damascus knives and the yoshihiros are identical as well). this is my new favorite knife. coming in at a little under 400g it still feels nimble and i prepared an entire dinner with it for 6 people. shaved sunchokes and fennel, citrus segments, this thing is really versatile, highly recommended. makes me wonder about all my other knives that cost three times as much!
> i just couldn't get down with those hideous looking handles on the CCKs...



CCk's won't win any beauty contests, but that's what makes em great- you can beat the living $#!+ out of em and they ask for more.:spiteful: 

The handles really aren't that bad. Ugly- yes, but functional, especially if you extend your index and middle finger out across the flat of the blade when cutting. My biggest gripe with them(besides the ugly patina, and discoloration of some foods) is how thin the spine is, really screwed up my knife callus the first couple days I used one.


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## jmdavids

Funny to stumble upon this thread just now. I purchased a cheap cleaver from a 99 Ranch Market maybe eight years ago. Never felt comfortable with it at home - intimidated by the size, and the thickness of the blade meant that most large items I tried to cut would actually end of cracking instead of cutting. But I've been developing my knife sharpening skills, and so I really went to work on the blade, grinding down the angle to get a nice sharp point.

A couple weeks ago, I began taking the cleaver to work with me. I work at a Japanese restaurant and will cut between two and four quarts of green onion tops on a daily basis, and cut up a lot of daikon radish. As much as I love my Wusthof nakiri, the sheer volume of cutting began to run down the edge. Not so much an issue with the cleaver. I've touched it up on a 4000 grit stone a week ago, and gave it a couple passes on a ceramic honer, and the thing will still easily go through two bunches of green onions at a time. Such a time saver. Plus, my nakiri is still super sharp a few weeks later cause it's not doing all the heavy lifting.

Just thought add myself to the ranks of the cleaver lovers club. :knife: I'm keeping an eye out for another $25 cleaver to leave at the house.


----------



## toddnmd

Great thread--I'm glad it's still alive!


----------



## boomchakabowwow

interesting thread. just went thru it all while eating my lunch.

i'm chinese and i dont have a cleaver. at least not a chinese styled one. big rectangle shaped things..i just gave away a Henckel version to a co-worker. i just never used it. i do however use a smaller cleaver which i think is from Japan. it is heavier, thicker..so it tends to split things like Daikon. but it will blast thru a coconut..or any squash. for me the main advantage it the ability to scoop up chopped ingredients. the biggest win. my parents have them scatter throughout the house. my stepdad, was a chef. he used them primarily.

hmmmm..i also dont own a Wok.


----------



## brainsausage

toddnmd said:


> Great thread--I'm glad it's still alive!



+1!!!!!!!!


----------



## labor of love

out of curiousity, has anybody here picked up the new wa gesshin ginga cleaver???


----------



## schanop

Probably not, for me. Handle looks a bit too short and too stubby for my liking. Rivet handle version looks much better.


----------



## Basecadet

After reading through this thread I was inspired to give a cleaver a shot. Went to the CCK shop in Pacific mall just north of Toronto and picked up a 1303. Mt current favorite knife for veg prep is a beater usuba. I'm still trying to get used to the control of the blade due to the height of the blade, but I think with time and practice I will grow to enjoy using it.


----------



## tkern

For the last 3 weeks I've been using a Dexter that I've thinned. Found on ebay for $9 new. I've really come to enjoy using it and am probably going to pick up the suien vc next.


----------



## labor of love

schanop said:


> Probably not, for me. Handle looks a bit too short and too stubby for my liking. Rivet handle version looks much better.


the reason i ask is because i used to own the riveted/western handle version. it was a little heavy for me. maybe 470ish grams. im guessing the wa is much lighter.


----------



## JKerr

Looks fugly, but I reckon Ashi might be on to something. I reckon a d handle would probably be more comfortable on a cleaver but the dimensions look nice, much better than Moritakas and Takedas IMO. I'll fly the flag for _barrel_ style handles on cleavers though. Absolutely smitten with the Sugimoto #7 I recently added to my kit, it's heavy but feels perfect in hand....the fat spine helps with that too though.


----------



## malacara

JKerr said:


> Absolutely smitten with the Sugimoto #7 I recently added to my kit, it's heavy but feels perfect in hand....the fat spine helps with that too though.



Congrats on your new cleaver! You already have 2 Sugimotos if I´m not wrong and It seems you are very happy about them (I know i will have to get one myself at the end, sigh). Pics or further comments about this new purchase would be utterly appreciated :lol2:

Regards


----------



## JKerr

malacara said:


> Congrats on your new cleaver! You already have 2 Sugimotos if I´m not wrong and It seems you are very happy about them (I know i will have to get one myself at the end, sigh). Pics or further comments about this new purchase would be utterly appreciated :lol2:
> 
> Regards



Cheers, Indeed I have a #6 too, though it's getting pretty old now (by my standards) and really needs some heavy thinning to bring it back to what it was. I don't have the time or patience to put it to the stones and I probably don't have the skills to use a power tool (or the space really).

I can't really remember what the #6 was like out of the box, but it seems like the F+F on the #7 is a little better, perhaps Sugimoto are upping their game a bit; engraving is neater, spine and choil are nicely rounded. Cladding and steel seems to be very reactive on Sugimoto cleavers and they take an ugly patina, had a touch more belly than I recall the #6 as having too.

Steel and geometry is amazing though. I've heard they use white 2 and if so they should get props for their HT cause I reckon it's better than any white 2 I've used. Sharpens incredibly easy, gets piss-take sharp and the retention is surprisingly good. For comparison's sake, I think it ***** all over the Konosuke Fujiyama #6 in all those aspects, and the Konosuke is certainly no slouch.

I'll try to get some pics that work with some other cleavers for comparison and post a review later.

Ta,
Josh


----------



## malacara

JKerr said:


> Cheers, Indeed I have a #6 too, though it's getting pretty old now (by my standards) and really needs some heavy thinning to bring it back to what it was. I don't have the time or patience to put it to the stones and I probably don't have the skills to use a power tool (or the space really).
> 
> I can't really remember what the #6 was like out of the box, but it seems like the F+F on the #7 is a little better, perhaps Sugimoto are upping their game a bit; engraving is neater, spine and choil are nicely rounded. Cladding and steel seems to be very reactive on Sugimoto cleavers and they take an ugly patina, had a touch more belly than I recall the #6 as having too.
> 
> Steel and geometry is amazing though. I've heard they use white 2 and if so they should get props for their HT cause I reckon it's better than any white 2 I've used. Sharpens incredibly easy, gets piss-take sharp and the retention is surprisingly good. For comparison's sake, I think it ***** all over the Konosuke Fujiyama #6 in all those aspects, and the Konosuke is certainly no slouch.
> 
> I'll try to get some pics that work with some other cleavers for comparison and post a review later.
> 
> Ta,
> Josh




Thank you very much!! really interesting info. I have been long thinking about getting a Sugimoto #6 and/or 7 someday and I really appreciate all this valuable information. 

Again, thanks.

Regards


----------



## labor of love

so who's going to buy the new zensho/yoshikane skd cleaver?
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Zensho-Yoshikane-Kasumi-Wa-Slicing-Cleaver-215-mm-p/1186.htm


----------



## schanop

I think it is takefu v2 core cladded with iron. Quite a handsome chuka, it is.


----------



## labor of love

whoops, i meant v2. my bad. the choil shot is nice.


----------



## JKerr

labor of love said:


> so who's going to buy the new zensho/yoshikane skd cleaver?
> http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Zensho-Yoshikane-Kasumi-Wa-Slicing-Cleaver-215-mm-p/1186.htm



Me...


----------



## schanop

JKerr said:


> labor of love said:
> 
> 
> 
> so who's going to buy the new zensho/yoshikane skd cleaver?
> http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Zensho-Yoshikane-Kasumi-Wa-Slicing-Cleaver-215-mm-p/1186.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me...
Click to expand...


How cool Josh, and it is 15% off this week too.


----------



## malacara

JKerr said:


> Me...



What an amazing cleaver collection you are already having! 

And don´t forget to tell us how it is when you finally get it please:lol2:

Regards


----------



## labor of love

malacara said:


> What an amazing cleaver collection you are already having!
> 
> And don´t forget to tell us how it is when you finally get it please:lol2:
> 
> Regards


i also expect a full report! lol.


----------



## JKerr

Looking forward to playing with it, especially interested to see how the wa handle feels.

Starting to amass more cleavers than I can rotate, maybe I'll look at doing some pass arounds soon.

Cheers,
Josh


----------



## JoeGeorge

I was on a web site http://www.kitchenknivesbygeorge.com the other day and saw a Chinese Cleaver by Pro-Balance and one by Ultra-Chef. Have you used either of these? Which one would you recommend?


----------



## El Pescador

Neither. After looking at both I would skip them and by a CCK.


----------



## JoeGeorge

I'm not familiar with CCK. On http://www.kitchenknivesbygeorge.com I saw a CRKT. Who is the manufacturer of CCK? what is the price range?


----------



## jigert

http://www.chefsmall.net/CCK-Small-Cleaver-Small-Slicer-KF1303-S
There ya go, cck1303


----------



## labor of love

JKI has a new stainless clad carbon cleaver that is about the size of a CCK for under a $100. Someone needs to try it. Just sayin.


----------



## Jmadams13

I've been eyeing that cleaver for a while. I wonder if its as thin as the 1303. I would hate to pay 100 and it be as thick as a Winco


----------



## mikemac

JoeGeorge said:


> I'm not familiar with CCK....Who is the manufacturer of CCK? what is the price range?



Chan Chi Kee here:

http://www.chanchikee.com/ChineseKnives.html

One of the largest/dominant suppliers of 'value' priced kitchen equipment, both commercially and for retail? There is a restaurant supply house in the middle of the main Asian community here is L.A., this place probably has 1000 woks OVER 26" on the showroom floor, and in their clever area there are 2 brands - CCK and Dexter Russell. Interestingly, the DR filled out the "#6" style - the main meat & veggie thin slicer in SS sized about 220x110. All the rest, all the med. and heavy choppers, the duck slicers, etc., were all CCK


----------



## kalaeb

JoeGeorge said:


> I was on a web site the other day and saw a Chinese Cleaver by Pro-Balance and one by Ultra-Chef. Have you used either of these? Which one would you recommend?



Really? Does no one else see the spam attempt here...


----------



## Andy777

kalaeb said:


> Really? Does no one else see the spam attempt here...



Hahaha what a loser...


----------



## labor of love

i just figured it was a noob question....


----------



## Scrap

Really wish I could have found this when i was first learning to use cleavers - I looked everywhere for info like this. In any case I did learn how to use it and forgot I had any other knives. It really surprised me how easy it is to perform very delicate work with it - to date I've supreme'd oranges, used it as a zester (mostly for the sake of doing so), peeled root vegetables, and have been trying to practice katsura-muki with it...and mine is just a $7 punched out piece of carbon steel I got from wokshop.com. I'm actually surprised I didn't see these brought up before now, I've always seen them recommended as a trial cleaver in threads like this.


----------



## labor of love

CCKs are tried and true for the cleaver curious.


----------



## connie

yes, I also like Chinese cleavers!!


----------



## mast3quila

I just ordered the CCK because of this thread.


----------



## RyÃ¸kan

I would love to hear Andy's assessment of Zhen knives -- in particular, their Chinese Cleavers, especially the Damascus.

About 15 months ago I purchased the Zhen Damascus slicer. I'm pretty happy with it, but I have never owned one of the premium Japanese-made Chinese cleavers, so I don't have a good basis to compare. My own view is: (1) I really like the ergonomics, including the balance and shape of the handle, which is unusual; (2) I think it's a good value -- about $130; but (3) I don't think the metallurgy is up to first-rate Japanese standards; (4) it's very light for its size -- perhaps a bit too light -- to the point where I feel it may be fragile.

I reviewed the knife on Amazon, in 2012, after I bought it: http://www.amazon.com/ZHEN-Japanese-67-Layer-Damascus-Chopping/dp/B00E0EF9CQ


----------



## XooMG

I was walking by a kitchen outfit shop not too far from my place to see what kind of cheap knives they had. There was some normal expected junk, and I didn't come across any CCKs or the like, but I did find a few Chinese knives that were better than expected. One, a &#27704;&#21033; (Yong Li) branded one caught my eye with "V&#29305;" (http://www.e-tokko.com/vspe_1_2.htm) blade sandwiched in stainless cladding. No idea how the heat treat is, but it's not a super alloy and should be relatively simple to harden/temper like Hitachi blue series. Still, I don't randomly buy knives because they're made of interesting steel. Of all the knives at the shop, this one was the best in terms of grind geometry. It's not a big cleaver; I opted for the smallest they had, which has a length of just over 20cm. Still, the spine at the tip is a bit over 1mm, and it seems to have a pretty fine edge...much finer than my Maestro Wu cleaver. No idea how it compares to CCK or Sugimoto or any other, but I was pretty impressed for the price (US$23). Only problem seems to be that there's more belly than I'm used to.

Didn't have time for good pics, but hope these can convey how it looks:


----------



## Justin0505

That cleaver looks pretty darn good, and for the price, it looks fantastic. 
I don't think that the belly looks bad, but for the price you can afford to experiment with shaping it and not worry too much.

I'm sure people would be interested to hear your thoughts on it after some use and experimentation.


----------



## EdipisReks

that looks pretty nice!


----------



## Timthebeaver

$23 for stainless-clad V2 and what looks like a nice grind?. That's an incredible bargain.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Nice looking Cleaver XooMG.Never had much luck wt. stainless chinese cleavers,stuck to carbons.It would be good to find a nice stainless.I buy all my cleavers in chinatown here,large selection.I think I will check to see if they carry the Yong Li clad blade.

For some things it is a advantage to live in Taiwan


----------



## luko

Hi, I'm a pizza maker, I'm so busy in the prep, and my old ZWILLING satoku Motion needs to be sharped each time who I chop vegetables with a hard skin. I'm looking for a new knife and a new steel\stone sharpener. I could buy a victorinox fibrox 8 inches for less than 30 ponds (now I'm working in UK) but I like too the cleaver knife.

1st dilemma) :eyebrow:I don't know is a cleaver knife is better than a classic european cook knife about these 3 topics: 
1a) slow chopping of high stuff with very hard skin; for example, if with a cleaver I chop aubergines (who maybe there are high more than 5 cm) could the weight be a problem?
1b) fast chopping of high stuff; for example, if with a cleaver I chop mushrooms in a fast way, isn't it like hit a hummer on the chopping board?
1c) cut long stuff, like the cylinders of fiordilatte (a kind of mozzarella with less liquid) who are long 20cm

2nd dilemma) :scratchhead:
I live in Europe, and I can spend less than 70 pounds for cleaver knife + sharper stone. what could I buy?

thank you, and I'm sorry if there are any mistake, my English is not perfect :thumbsup:


----------



## labor of love

i think jck has some options that may be in you price range.http://japanesechefsknife.com
im not quite sure what youre trying to say exactly, but i find cleavers to be good all around prep knives and can handle veg prep of all sizes and shapes. there is an adjustment period going from using a chef knife to cleaver but i wouldnt worry too much about it.


----------



## MrBoogs

Assuming you get a fairly thin-beveled cleaver and keep it sharp, you shouldn't have any problems using a cleaver on the products you mentioned. With all that steel to work with, it's easy to assume that the cleaver works as a full bore chopping machine. But the truth is, they are capable of a lot of finesse.


----------



## luko

thank you for the advices.

but I have to find a "cleaver knife + sharper stone" not too much expensive in Europe. what could I buy?


----------



## Noodle Soup

Anyone have experience with the F.Dick "Red Spirit" Chinese style cleavers? One light slicer and one slightly heavier chopper. From some company called "Mad Cow" that I don't know anything about.


----------



## loves2cook

I have an old stainless Chinese cleaver with a metal handle that I bought in Chinatown in San Francisco in 1977 with my carbon steel woks. It holds a great edge and I can make the thinnest slices on a tomato with this cleaver. The blade is 9 inch by 4 inch and weighs 16.5 oz. I can do almost anything with this cleaver when it comes to slicing,chopping and mincing.


----------



## CoqaVin

Cleavers get sharper than any of my knives I don't know why?


----------



## Donatzsky

Would anyone care to take a guess at the quality of this knife:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Cutt...utter-red-wooden-handle-knife/1197295200.html

I've been using a smaller (8 cm wide) #4 cleaver for a while, and stumbling upon this thread made me want to get a bigger one


----------



## Noodle Soup

I don't know the brand but it looks like a lot of the lower end cleavers in China. The one piece all metal knives are not as common as the various wood handle models but you do see a fair number of them in the markets. I was recently in a Wal-Mart type business in Chengdu looking at their cutlery election. It was kind of like looking at the display here only ever model was a cleaver. Flashy stainless steel blades and fancy synthetic handles of various materials. Prices were mostly in the $10-$15 U.S. range which is high in that part of the world.


----------



## loves2cook

Donatzsky said:


> Would anyone care to take a guess at the quality of this knife:
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Cutt...utter-red-wooden-handle-knife/1197295200.html
> 
> I've been using a smaller (8 cm wide) #4 cleaver for a while, and stumbling upon this thread made me want to get a bigger one



Thats my cleaver from the 70's lol :laugh:


----------



## birdeye

Oops, I found my way back here it seems. And I have been converted to the church of Cleaver. The chinese one that Josh (brainsausage) sent me ages ago has been lovingly used and sharpened. I use it for everything except for bread (although it can do that as well). Onions making people cry doesn't make any sense to me anymore. It feels like everyone has been lying to me. I can't believe my cooking class teacher advised us to use a cheese slicer for making thin cuts of cucumber! She also had other bits of wisdom like serrated blades being essential for cutting tomatoes. Or "you need a small knife in order to make precise cuts". Lies. Lies, all of them! My cleaver is more handsome than your tiny serrated knife.

But my question is this: Is a cleaver good for preparing fish? I know how to filet a fish, but that is using a "normal" western fillet knife. I haven't yet put the cleaver to the test, but now that summer is coming and the amount and selection of fish increases, I have the perfect chance to try it out. I am kind of in a way maybe planning to buy a knife entirely for fish... but don't mention that to the cleaver.


luko said:


> thank you for the advices.
> 
> but I have to find a "cleaver knife + sharper stone" not too much expensive in Europe. what could I buy?


I can't help you with the cleaver, but I ordered my 1000/6000 whetstone from here: http://www.fine-tools.com/kombischleifstein.html Fast shipping and friendly service, no complaints. The prices have risen a little since I placed my order, but I don't think they are too steep.


----------



## brainsausage

birdeye said:


> Oops, I found my way back here it seems. And I have been converted to the church of Cleaver. The chinese one that Josh (brainsausage) sent me ages ago has been lovingly used and sharpened. I use it for everything except for bread (although it can do that as well). Onions making people cry doesn't make any sense to me anymore. It feels like everyone has been lying to me. I can't believe my cooking class teacher advised us to use a cheese slicer for making thin cuts of cucumber! She also had other bits of wisdom like serrated blades being essential for cutting tomatoes. Or "you need a small knife in order to make precise cuts". Lies. Lies, all of them! My cleaver is more handsome than your tiny serrated knife.
> 
> But my question is this: Is a cleaver good for preparing fish? I know how to filet a fish, but that is using a "normal" western fillet knife. I haven't yet put the cleaver to the test, but now that summer is coming and the amount and selection of fish increases, I have the perfect chance to try it out. I am kind of in a way maybe planning to buy a knife entirely for fish... but don't mention that to the cleaver.
> 
> 
> I can't help you with the cleaver, but I ordered my 1000/6000 whetstone from here: http://www.fine-tools.com/kombischleifstein.html Fast shipping and friendly service, no complaints. The prices have risen a little since I placed my order, but I don't think they are too steep.



Woah, I was just thinking about this the other day and wondering how you'd got along with the old girl. Glad it worked out for you:doublethumbsup:


----------



## Scrap

I would imagine using a cleaver for fish breakdown would depend some on the size of the fish, but I also think you could get it to work much like you would a deba. Any Japanese fish breakdown video should give you a decent idea of what you're going for


----------



## loves2cook

Now here is another way to use a cleaver

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6OqYSdwDjI


----------



## birdeye

Oh wow now I am really intrigued. Maybe I will try it and see what happens. Is there some kind of logic behind chopping the head off vs. leaving it attached to the spine?



brainsausage said:


> Woah, I was just thinking about this the other day and wondering how you'd got along with the old girl. Glad it worked out for you:doublethumbsup:


Oh yes, we get along nicely. And since I have now moved out I can just store it on the cutting board without anyone freaking out about there being sharp objects in public space. :knife: I also got myself a carbon steel wok to match the cleaver, although the harmony has since been disrupted by the darkening patina on the wok.

I can't believe I'm considering getting another knife now when I can't even afford to eat meat. But you know, priorities...


----------



## Noodle Soup

I watched a lady in a market filet a large order of fish for a restaurant with a cleaver a few years ago in Bangkok. On the other hand, when I was in Chengdu China a few weeks ago, most of the fish mongers seemed to be using knives very similar to Western filets for fileting. I don't think Chinese eat a lot of what we consider filets, most of their fish are steamed, fried etc whole or cut into thick steaks. Several different styles of large knives besides cleaver are used for the task.


----------



## XooMG

I walked by a fish seller the other day and looked at the cleaver they were using. Almost looked serrated. The fact that people use them that way doesn't make me recommend using them that way.


----------



## birdeye

Yes, you are right. I had a day off yesterday and spent it wisely by studying fish. Went to the fish counter in the morning, got myself a nice 1,4 kg bream. I ended up not using the cleaver much because I found it a little awkward to maneuver and the fish had very strong bones. I didn't want to put the poor cleaver through that. I went the traditional way and opened the fish with my trusty little puukko. A bit too small for a fish of this size, but it got the job done. I did use the cleaver for cleaning up the fillets and skinning, which it did quite nicely. I think it works best when slicing and dicing though, so fish butchering has to be done by something else.
...Aand thus I have justified the purchase of a proper fish knife. Oh bummer. :wink:


----------



## XooMG

I wish makers were a bit more transparent about their stuff sometimes, but it can be fun to find crude but potentially excellent cleavers.

I was picking up another knife when I saw this sucker in a cardboard sleeve. Rough finish (think angle grinder scratches) and "pure carbon steel" label with no hardness indication. Still, less than US$15 for the thing, and it seems pretty thin with decent geometry:


----------



## Noodle Soup

So what are considered the "professional user" brands of cleaver in Taiwan? It seems to vary from region to region in main land China.


----------



## TimoNieminen

XooMG said:


> Still, less than US$15 for the thing, and it seems pretty thin with decent geometry



Hard to go too wrong. I picked up a bunch of AU$17 Chinese knives, adequate steel (4Cr13), excellent geometry. Mostly for my wife to give out as loaner knives, but I've taken one as a holiday knife. Given such things, I don't see why people buy Kiwi knives (with their IMO inferior geometry).

(The ones I bought were http://www.wangwuquan.com/en/products/YYM-S2.htm from local Chinatown store.)


----------



## XooMG

Noodle Soup said:


> So what are considered the "professional user" brands of cleaver in Taiwan? It seems to vary from region to region in main land China.


I haven't come across anything I'd call a professional standard brand. I haven't been in any of the higher-end kitchens to look at knives, but Ximen (&#35199;&#38272 brands (like the one I just posted pics of) seem pretty popular as users. The Jinmen stuff seems more for tourists, but there are a few locals who like them.

I'm no expert though.


----------



## purplemutant

I have now joined the cult of the cleaver! :knife: I picked up a Dexter Russel on ebay for $27 with free shipping! While waiting for it to arrive I have been looking at info on how to properly use it. That's how I stumbled across this thread and forum. 

:newhere:

The cleaver came today! It looks new or barely used. So I didn't have to sharpen it. Of course I had to try it right away. I started with some carrots. I was immediately impressed. It's amazing that such a broad blade can make such ridiculously thin slices. On technique I have had trouble with in the past is julienning. So I never really did it. If I wanted a julienne I would break out the mandolin. With the cleaver I was able to make some amazingly thin julienne cuts. I wasn't just cutting match sticks; I was cutting tooth picks! It's impressive that with my first time using a cleaver I was able to master a technique I had trouble with using a western chefs knife. I decided to use the carrots in a salad with some apple. I was able to Julianne the apple too with out much trouble. I like how I was able to stack the apple slices and julienne several at a time. The broad blade does a great job of keeping the julienne apple from going everywhere. I also decided to do some kale in the salad. Given the crunchy theme of the salad I decided to do kale stem rather than kale leaf. I was amazed that I could julienne something as thin as a kale stem. 

After just one meal; I am sold! The Chinese cleaver has now become my favorite kitchen knife. I am sure as I use it more and more I will love it more and more. Watching youtube videos, it's amazing to see just how versatile a cleaver really is. It's amazing how precise a cleaver can be in the right hands. 

Next come the dangerous side to the clever cult. I live in the Bay area in California. So I have access to Chinatown in San Francisco. That means Chinese restaurant supply stores! I will have to pick up something as a backup in case my Dexter Russel gets damaged. I may have to check out a CCK. Hopefully I can walk out of China town with my bank account still intact :lol2:

Yes indeed cleavers do rule! :doublethumbsup:

Jennifer


----------



## daveb

You had me until the kale...


----------



## echerub

Oh, the real danger will be when you start looking at the other cleavers not generally available in retail stores


----------



## purplemutant

daveb said:


> You had me until the kale...



You'll have to excuse me. I am Autistic and don't always get what people are trying to say. Are you saying that you don't believe I was able to julienne a kale stem? Or was the comment just meant as a joke? :scratchhead:


----------



## chinacats

purplemutant said:


> You'll have to excuse me. I am Autistic and don't always get what people are trying to say. Are you saying that you don't believe I was able to julienne a kale stem? Or was the comment just meant as a joke? :scratchhead:



Hate to speak for Dave, but guessing he just doesn't like leafy green vegetables. In other words, yes I believe he meant it as a joke.
Congratulations on the new cleaver!


----------



## daveb

Joke. It sounded like a great salad until the kale:justkidding:


----------



## purplemutant

daveb said:


> Joke. It sounded like a great salad until the kale:justkidding:



Gotcha! I like kale, I put it in darn near everything. But I understand that kale isn't for everyone. My sister can't stand kale.


----------



## TheDispossessed

i was hoping this thread would be brought back to life!


----------



## Jaspernowhere

A traditional way to julienne carrots with a Chinese cleaver is to stack up your slices and then fan them out like knocked over dominos leaning on each other kinda like this.../////////////////, but obviously closer to parallel with the board. Your carrot tootpicks will be carrot hair with a little practice  happy chopping, my fellow chukabochoist.


----------



## purplemutant

Jaspernowhere said:


> A traditional way to julienne carrots with a Chinese cleaver is to stack up your slices and then fan them out like knocked over dominos leaning on each other kinda like this.../////////////////, but obviously closer to parallel with the board. Your carrot tootpicks will be carrot hair with a little practice  happy chopping, my fellow chukabochoist.



Thanks for the technique, I will have to try that. Carrot hair sounds interesting. If for no other reason than to impress people. I am sure many people would be impressed to see such thin pieces of carrot cut with a cleaver. Of course some of these things are not nearly as impressive as they might seem. With the right technique and a little practice amazing things can be done with food. A thin Julianne is within most people's reach I think. I have some diagnosed fine motor control issues. So if I can do it I am sure most "normal" people can too. 

Earlier today I was cutting some large green grapes. So I decided to try something. I took one of the grape slices and proceeded to fillet it. I just laid the cleaver flat on the board and used a sawing motion while rotating the grape slice. It's a amazing what a cleaver can do in the right hands. I wish I had known about these ages ago!


----------



## apathetic

The Cleaver is a fun knife indeed, I've been enjoying it. Are there any good videos to check out for technique?


----------



## purplemutant

apathetic said:


> The Cleaver is a fun knife indeed, I've been enjoying it. Are there any good videos to check out for technique?



I was looking at videos with Martin Yan. Here is one of him showing different cuts on a bell pepper. It's amazing how fine a cut you can do with a cleaver. 

[video=youtube;3KRGi17Xg0Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KRGi17Xg0Y[/video]


----------



## XooMG

Another cheap Taiwanese cleaver. I'd really like to test the hardness of these...they're ridiculously thin and take a very good edge. 1.8mm thick at the spine. Probably could be classified as a "laser".


----------



## Asteger

Very thin, and looks like it could be a bit concave on the 2-bevel. How's about a picture of the whole thing?


----------



## XooMG

Asteger said:


> Very thin, and looks like it could be a bit concave on the 2-bevel. How's about a picture of the whole thing?


Concavity may be an optical illusion that comes from the choil shot (the center "swell" is also only present at the heel because of the way the tang is shaped), and if not, it could easily be from being bent in grinding. Still, it's an impressively thin knife, and not a bad performer.

Didn't have a chance to take a pic of the overall knife, but it's super generic and in extremely rough finish so not extremely worthy of a photo shoot. The crudeness combined with the relatively high price got my curiosity.


----------



## designdog

I loved the cleaver I once owned - the big Takeda. Made me immediately watch Eat Drink Man Woman again.

Only problem was storage - it would not fit in anything I had. Also feared I might drop it on my toes. My forceful wife made me sell it. She is concerned with my well being...


----------



## purplemutant

I just came across this video on Chinese culinary knife skills. It shows some really impressive cleaver skills as well as footage of the cleavers being made. 

[video=youtube;sijUq_Gxyu4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sijUq_Gxyu4[/video]

Here are a couple of videos showing a CCK making short work of celery and onions. 

[video=youtube_share;mvBELftB5Zg]http://youtu.be/mvBELftB5Zg[/video]

[video=youtube_share;0gon2PIdLvY]http://youtu.be/0gon2PIdLvY[/video]


----------



## purplemutant

Just to show how versatile a clever can be. Here is a video of a guy shaving with a CCK. 

[video=youtube_share;QOumJ0B1Cj8]http://youtu.be/QOumJ0B1Cj8[/video]


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> I loved the cleaver I once owned - the big Takeda. ... Only problem was storage - it would not fit in anything I had. Also feared I might drop it on my toes. My forceful wife made me sell it. She is concerned with my well being...



I just stick mine on the mag-bar (if currently in vogue). The only problem for me is that 1 chuka takes the place of 2 normal knives, and I've only got that 1 mag-bar.

Thanks or the vids, 'purplemutant'!


----------



## purplemutant

Asteger said:


> I just stick mine on the mag-bar (if currently in vogue). The only problem for me is that 1 chuka takes the place of 2 normal knives, and I've only got that 1 mag-bar.
> 
> Thanks or the vids, 'purplemutant'!



I keep my Dexter Russel on a magnet bar. That seems like the simplest option for knives as big as cleavers. If we didn't have a the mag bar I would look into making some kind of a sheath for it. I may do that anyway. It would be nice to have a good way to transport it. If I am visiting my sisters I would want to be able to cook with my own knife .


----------



## kavik79

purplemutant said:


> I just came across this video on Chinese culinary knife skills. It shows some really impressive cleaver skills as well as footage of the cleavers being made.



So that's where the idea for the Turducken came from? :laugh:


Just wanted to say thanks for this great thread! I'm currently waiting for my CCK 1303 to arrive after seeing what macmiddlebrooks did with his here :ubersexy:
I've only just been getting into cooking and slowly working on my knife skills off and on over the last 8 months (admittedly, more off then on), and I've never used a chinese cleaver, so finding this thread has been very useful :thumbsup:


----------



## purplemutant

kavik79 said:


> So that's where the idea for the Turducken came from? :laugh:
> 
> 
> Just wanted to say thanks for this great thread! I'm currently waiting for my CCK 1303 to arrive after seeing what macmiddlebrooks did with his here :ubersexy:
> I've only just been getting into cooking and slowly working on my knife skills off and on over the last 8 months (admittedly, more off then on), and I've never used a chinese cleaver, so finding this thread has been very useful :thumbsup:



Yea it was pretty impressive to see the guy debone the birds and stuff them into each other. Chinese cleavers are pretty awesome. I am amazed at what you can do with them. Since I got mine I haven't bothered with the Zwilling J.A. Henckels chefs knife. For me the cleaver works much better than any other knife I have used. At some point I want to get another cleaver (or 10 :laugh. I think my next purchase may be a CCK. Since I live in the bay area, I may just swing over to SF China town to see what they have there. In addition to a CCK it might be worth getting some cheaper to let people use. Just in case someone missuses it. It would suck if someone took a chip out of a nice CCK. Thankfully no one has abused my Dexter Russel cleaver.


----------



## purplemutant

A few months ago I picked up a cheap metal handled Shibazi cleaver at my local _99 Ranch Market_ store. The _Discover Chinese Cuisine_ video I posted on this thread shows some footage from the Shibazi factory. The first bit of footage showing the stamped blades and handle grinding are the knife I picked up. So I am really impressed with this knife for the price. If I remember right it was $10 or there abouts. I think this would make a good travel knife. Given the price I wouldn't be that worried if something happened to it. I am thinking of making a leather sheath for it to facilitate traveling with it. I think my next cleaver will be a nice CCK. Here some pictures of the Shibazi. 

Box 







On the cutting board with some freshly cut tomato






Next to my Dexter Russell


----------



## IndoorOutdoorCook

I'm building a custom knife block that just holds cleavers. That takes care of home storage.

How do you guys transport cleavers? I have an ultimate edge knife bag, but a cleaver takes up like a whole pocket blocking out many knives. AFAIK it's the only bag that would even fit cleavers. Any others out there?


----------



## berko

i use diy cardboard sayas.


----------



## natto

XooMG said:


> I wish makers were a bit more transparent about their stuff sometimes, but it can be fun to find crude but potentially excellent cleavers.
> 
> I was picking up another knife when I saw this sucker in a cardboard sleeve. Rough finish (think angle grinder scratches) and "pure carbon steel" label with no hardness indication. Still, less than US$15 for the thing, and it seems pretty thin with decent geometry:


Hi Berko, this one is my veggie cleaver. Pretty thin with only little belly, about 0.8mm at 1cm. Sorry for being late and on the wrong forum.

XooMG, thank you for posting.


----------



## berko

> Sorry for being late and on the wrong forum.



dont worry, you're on the right forum


----------



## Nomo4me

I have one of those (left) though not with Shabazi branding. Comes out about 2x per year. So nice to have when you don't want to mess up a good knife. I hacked apart a frozen block of squid with it this week and was surprised afterward when there was no rolling to the edge. Really good value.



purplemutant said:


> A few months ago I picked up a cheap metal handled Shibazi cleaver at my local _99 Ranch Market_ store. The _Discover Chinese Cuisine_ video I posted on this thread shows some footage from the Shibazi factory. The first bit of footage showing the stamped blades and handle grinding are the knife I picked up. So I am really impressed with this knife for the price. If I remember right it was $10 or there abouts. I think this would make a good travel knife. Given the price I wouldn't be that worried if something happened to it. I am thinking of making a leather sheath for it to facilitate traveling with it. I think my next cleaver will be a nice CCK. Here some pictures of the Shibazi.
> 
> Box
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the cutting board with some freshly cut tomato
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next to my Dexter Russell


----------



## Keith Sinclair

IndoorOutdoorCook said:


> I'm building a custom knife block that just holds cleavers. That takes care of home storage.
> 
> How do you guys transport cleavers? I have an ultimate edge knife bag, but a cleaver takes up like a whole pocket blocking out many knives. AFAIK it's the only bag that would even fit cleavers. Any others out there?



At work had a drawer at my workstation Cardboard saya. At home have a mag bloc dedicated to cleavers.


----------



## Mute-on

keithsaltydog said:


> At work had a drawer at my workstation Cardboard saya. At home have a mag bloc dedicated to cleavers.



PICS!!


----------



## RyÃ¸kan

I've got a thick plastic edge-guard that looks like what's pictured here:

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/henck...nife-p123496?gclid=CPvzhP3vpMsCFRSPfgod1gQHEQ

And after putting on the edge guard, I wrap my knife in a towel. That's it.


----------



## finch

Hey there, new here. Im kinda looking into trying out a Chinese-style kitchen knife. Just a hobbyistso not looking to spend a lot.

Held the Zwilling Henckels Twin Signature/Pollux and the Pro Chinese kitchen knife in my hands recently. I kinda like the looks of the Twin Signature handle (other than the logo), much more than those of other Chinese chefs knives. I can get it for ~50 USD here in Germany.

The Pro costs about twice as much as the Twin Signature. Its also very noticeably heavier than the Twin Signaturewhich is what my main question is about. 

How heavy should a Chinese chefs knife be? Id be mainly using it for cutting vegetables etc. The Twin Signature weighs 532 g according to Zwillings website. Dunno how much of thats in the handle. The weight of the Pro isnt listed.


----------



## berko

~1,7g/cm²


----------



## alterwisser

finch said:


> Hey there, new here. Im kinda looking into trying out a Chinese-style kitchen knife. Just a hobbyistso not looking to spend a lot.
> 
> Held the Zwilling Henckels Twin Signature/Pollux and the Pro Chinese kitchen knife in my hands recently. I kinda like the looks of the Twin Signature handle (other than the logo), much more than those of other Chinese chefs knives. I can get it for ~50 USD here in Germany.
> 
> The Pro costs about twice as much as the Twin Signature. Its also very noticeably heavier than the Twin Signaturewhich is what my main question is about.
> 
> How heavy should a Chinese chefs knife be? Id be mainly using it for cutting vegetables etc. The Twin Signature weighs 532 g according to Zwillings website. Dunno how much of thats in the handle. The weight of the Pro isnt listed.



I don't think there's a rule, much like there isn't one with other types of knives. Some like their Gyutos super light, others want some heft. Some want it in the handle, others in the blade. I would say: if you can, try different ones. You will find out pretty fast what you like and what you don't like...

Viel Erfolg, und viel Spaß. Der Weg ist das Ziel [emoji6]


----------



## XooMG

I have a small slicing cleaver that's 184g, but most normal Chinese ones I've used are 300-400g, though "all-purpose" models can be chunkier. Bigger Japanese versions are also heavier and often have denser handles pinned on bigger tangs.


----------



## finch

Hey, thanks for the answers. I was a bit worried that itd be uncharacteristically light. Guess Ill just have to try things out.


----------



## TimoNieminen

You don't have to worry about uncharacteristically light when it's 532g.

I'd avoid it for being too heavy. YMMV.


----------



## finch

Funnily, Amazon lists it at 358 g :scratchhead: which seems more likely  it didnt really _feel_ exceedingly heavy.

I had just been wondering because their other Chinese knife felt so much heavier.


----------



## TimoNieminen

That's a much more reasonable weight. 532g might be the shipping weight (knife + packaging, possibly even a volumetric weight equivalent). I'd still avoid it because of the handle, but again YMMV.

My main Chinese knife is 325g.


----------



## finch

Is that because you dont like the handle visually or is there something about the shape/length that impairs common ways of using such a knife?


----------



## TimoNieminen

"Ergonomic" handles are usually only ergonomic for a single grip - that is, holding the knife in a particular way with it in a particular spot in the hand. These can be uncomfortable/awkward to hold in different grips. With the usual straight round Chinese handle, the knife would sit with my bottom three fingers and base of the thumb pretty much the same way around the handle, from having the butt of the handle against the heel of my palm if I want to push hard along the handle for some reason (not that I'm likely to want to do that), with 4 fingers on the grip ("normal" grip, like I'd be forced to hold most "ergonomic" handles), through to pinch grip (which I certainly want to be able to use comfortably).

The gentle barrel shape (rather than completely straight cylindrical) doesn't interfere with this flexibility of grip, nor does the gentle taper on a typical Japanese handle. Also, I prefer rounded handles rather than handles with corners (so I'd choose a D-handle or oval handle (or Chinese handle) over an octagonal handle). I think my knives reflect my handle preferences:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23289-Currently-in-the-kitchen

I don't particularly like it visually, but I'd forgive that if I like it functionally. I'd probably like it visually if I liked it functionally.


----------



## finch

Thanks for your input, Ill keep it in mind when I try knives.


----------



## bennyprofane

Great and informative thread!

It seems to me that the Japanese Chinese Cleavers (for example Suien or Gesshin Ginga) often have a little more belly than the original Chinese (CCK). What difference does that make and are people favouring one or the other?


----------



## katana110

in china &#65292;the cooking chef only one knife&#65288;chinese cleaver&#65289;&#65281;they use it do everything&#65281;chopping slicing .......it is a multipurpose knife&#65281;


----------



## XooMG

katana110 said:


> in china &#65292;the cooking chef only one knife&#65288;chinese cleaver&#65289;&#65281;they use it do everything&#65281;chopping slicing .......it is a multipurpose knife&#65281;


In some parts of China. In many areas, there are multiple knives for more specialized purposes.


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## havox07

Brought my Wok Shop cleaver to work to try her out. Found out i'm quite a fan of cleavers, but the edge retention is god awful, by the end of the day it had dulled a crazy amount, where as my ginga and tanaka can usually last me a week before being unusable.


----------



## WingKKF

Keep using and sharpening/thinning it. If this is a carbon steel wokshop cleaver, the edge retention may seem to get better the more steel you remove.


----------



## daveb

My Wok Shop cleaver was 10 bucks. Well worth it and it did seem to get better over time.

Certainly would not have the same expectations of it than more expensive cleavers.


----------



## havox07

daveb said:


> My Wok Shop cleaver was 10 bucks. Well worth it and it did seem to get better over time.
> 
> Certainly would not have the same expectations of it than more expensive cleavers.



Of course, was mainly to see if I should buy a more expensive cleaver, and now i'm looking at a dalman


----------



## mise_en_place

Glad to hear the edge retention on the Wok Shop cleaver may get better with time. The edge retention on mine is a joke, but I really like using the Chinese cleavers.


----------



## sergeysus

This is a great thread with good info.

I had a cheap $10 Kiwi 6 inch Thai cleaver for a while and found that it cuts, chops, slices and dices. I beat the hell out of it. the steel is soft and sharpening is simple. I liked it enough that I tried using the cleaver instead of my gyuto and eventually ended up on this thread....... I've also been using a Takeda classic bunka, but could not control the tip. Its super thin. Dont have the skill for controlled tip work.

After reading through this thread and the help of BST - I just picked up a Takeda cleaver. I know its not a traditional Chinese cleaver and it has a wa handle (beefier then regular wa handles). Also, comes with a hefty price tag.

Been using it for a few days now in a home kitchen. I like not having a belly and getting used to the weight. Wanted to say thanks for this thread.


----------



## labor of love

That's a stellar takeda cleaver. You purchased it for an excellent price too.


----------



## Fedusa

Who here has pretty good knife skills with a cleaver? I know Chinese chefs use the cleaver for about 90% of their work but I so rarely see any demonstrations using it. I do recall seeing some chefs break down larger cuts of pork etc with just a cleaver but can't recall exactly what they did. I feel like this is a question for Fuchsia Dunlop.

It would be great to see someone's skill in action.

Also, am I one of the few who like the wood scale handles best? Wa handles look funky to me and the rat tail ones on my CCK leave a little to be desired but I do really prefer the CCK profile vs chuka-bochos belly though. Just a little relief at the heel and tip is all I need.

The belly doesn't look too pronounced on the JCK Suien, anyone here have one to comment on?


----------



## Noodle Soup

Given the experts I've watched in China I'm sure not going to volunteer to show my knife skills! As for wood scale handles, I've noticed these tend to vary with the region in China. Around Chengdu in Sichuan flat wood scales on full tangs seemed to out number the more traditional round grips.


----------



## Noodle Soup

I finally remembered that I had a copy of Ken Hom's book "Chinese Technique" in my collection. This comes about as close to a manual of knife skills that I know of. May not be in print anymore but I bought mine used off Amazon.


----------



## schanop

Ken Hom's Chinese technique is a nice illustrative book to have. For something a bit more recent and easier to obtain, I think Kian Lam Kho's Pheonix claws and jade trees is quite nice.


----------



## sergeysus

schanop said:


> Ken Hom's Chinese technique is a nice illustrative book to have. For something a bit more recent and easier to obtain, I think Kian Lam Kho's Pheonix claws and jade trees is quite nice.



thanks for the suggestion on the book. I do hope someone posts some videos on various ways to use the cleaver. I did see the Martin Yan vidoes wher he shows off some skills. 

I've been using only the cleaver everyday just to learn, but it would be helpful to see a vidoe or 2.


----------



## schanop

Here you go.

[video=youtube;sijUq_Gxyu4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sijUq_Gxyu4[/video]
[video=youtube;J_20ZpHQOsM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_20ZpHQOsM[/video]

http://www.bighospitality.co.uk/People/Ken-Hom-Chinese-Cleaver-School-of-Wok


----------



## Noodle Soup

schanop said:


> Ken Hom's Chinese technique is a nice illustrative book to have. For something a bit more recent and easier to obtain, I think Kian Lam Kho's Pheonix claws and jade trees is quite nice.



I have Kain Lam's book too. It is a good basic Chinese manual but I thought it was a little weak on cleaver skills. In fact, he uses a western chef knife in most of the cutting skills section.


----------



## schanop

Here's a series of Martin Yan, at least it is fun to watch.

[video=youtube;HV8FPk5qN9k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV8FPk5qN9k[/video]
[video=youtube;5-UUWWig-pU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-UUWWig-pU[/video]
[video=youtube;0kB_Gl_8v-4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kB_Gl_8v-4[/video]


----------



## schanop

[video=youtube;vVHO1JY4Vc8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVHO1JY4Vc8[/video]


----------



## sergeysus

that chicken boning technique is awesome. He never really explains how he does it, have to slow the vid down.


----------



## XooMG

I quite like my little borderline-fragile slicer...1.8mm at the spine. It was reasonably thin when new, but I made it thinner by the edge. V-Toku core is very hard.


----------



## cheflivengood

sergeysus said:


> that chicken boning technique is awesome. He never really explains how he does it, have to slow the vid down.



I've done it that way before and its a neat trick, but unless you lossen up each bird before hand id say its not very efficient if you are doing a lot.


----------



## Fedusa

Yeah, MY is a showman. I heard his accent is another marketing gimmick just like Gilbert Gottfried's voice is.


----------



## r0bz

Andy777 said:


> I've had some requests to re-post my "Discourse on Why I Love Chinese Cleavers" post from 7 years ago on KF. So take a stroll down memory lane and enjoy! Maybe we can convert a few more to the fold. Oh and by the way, I figured I'd re-post my cleaver technique post from back then too. Keep in mind I never claimed to be an expert, I just love using cleavers and watched a lot of the original Iron Chef. :biggrin: Without further ado, here are the posts.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> I know many people out there wonder why I am so fond of chinese cleavers. Some people recently have had some questions on the subject so I not-so-briefly put it into words.
> 
> First let me get this out of the way. Chinese cleavers just look really cool. I mean come on, who doesn't like the look of a shiny 9"x4" razor sharp piece of metal. Everytime I use one I feel like I'm in the back alleys of chinatown cutting the heads off ducks. Is that enough to love cleavers? No. Secondly I prefer a light thin vegetable cleaver that is what I'll be discussing.
> 
> In my ever so humble opinion chinese cleavers shouldn't be rocked. At least not in the sense of keeping the tip of the knife always on the board. If you try to use a cleaver the way you use a chef's knife with the tip never leaving the board you will be left thinking "why heck am I using this giant clumsy cumbersome knife, my gyuto is so much better" and you would be right. Is there some rocking involved in using one? Of course. I think there are three style of cut in which the cleaver excels: 1) the usaba or push cut. 2) the straight up and down chop with one end just barely leading and the other, landing a split second thereafter for a slight rock at the end (Iron Chef Chen Kenichi is the master of this when you see his machine gun chop it looks like a wild flayling but if you slow it down it is very accurate and deliberate.) 3) What I like to call the "stab and drag" technique, which is leaving the tip of the cleaver on the board and having the blade at a 35 degree angle to the board, then you just drag the cleaver and slice whatever is in it's path.
> 
> Why do cleavers cut so great? I think one element is the fact that they can have the weight of a german knife (or more) with the super thin blade profile of a japanese knife. The best of both worlds in a sense. This is why I think that a $20 chinatown clever cuts better in many ways than a $100 german knife. The weight of the knife does all the cutting you just need to lift it up and guide it as it falls. The super thin blade allows them to cut much better than any german knife could. When I cut a tomato with a cleaver I just set the edge on the skin and push forward, with never a thought of pushing down, and it cuts like butter.
> 
> Sometimes when doing many thin cuts with the tip of a chef's knife you have to exert because of the leverage constraint. In my opinion any time you exert you sacrifice accuracy. On a cleaver you have 4 inches of steel backing the tip up. Thin japanese gyutos are much better in this regard but you get the idea.
> 
> In an odd way I feel I have more control with a cleaver. Some may say that the large size is dificult to manage. I would disagree. With the big square cleaver I know where all of the knife is at all times. I'm never going to get caught by a stray tip because the knife turned. It's similar to the fact that you would have to go out of your way to be hit by a bus, you see it coming from a mile away. There is a larger margin of error when cutting with the middle knuckle parallel to the blade. With a normal knife as I put my knuckle paralell I can't lift the blade too high or I could cut myself but if I lift my finger too high it will be over the top of the spine. With the cleaver the sky is the limit as to how far I can lift. I raise my knuckle just above the product and I have 4 inches of leeway before my knuckle is over or under the knife.
> 
> Also when doing super fine delicate cuts where I need lots of control I use my 3 fingers and thumb to hold the product and I lift my index finger and place the fingertip on the side of the cleaver 2 or 3 inches away from the edge. I leave my finger in the same spot and lift it up and down with the knife. This technique is what I used when cutting the potato fans I did a while back. It was super fast and very easy to be accurate with each cut. Try doing that with a chef's knife.
> 
> My perfect cleaver would be large 22-24cm, wide 10-12cm, and as thin as possible. For a cleaver that size the weight should fall between 400-475g. However, the more I have used my Watanabe cleaver (which weighs in at 520g) the more I really don't mind the extra weight. The other day I chopped with it for 30 minutes and wasn't fatigued. I just need to remember to let the cleaver do all the work. Most of the high end Japanese made cleavers fall between 500-550g which I have started to shy away from, but I may rethink that and give them more of a chance.
> 
> I also don't need as much curve as most. A perfectly straight edge is definetly a No. All you need is a slight curve for the cleaver to fall smoothly and not jarringly like happens with a perfectly flat edge. In my opinion if the middle of the edge is on the board the two ends should lift up only 4 or 5mm to be effective. More curve is acceptable as well, the ends on the Watanabe for instance probably lift 7 or 8mm.
> 
> Recently I have had a chance to use a couple cleavers with longer handles. It is really growing on me. I can say I prefer that style.
> 
> Since the car analogy is so popular I'll continue it. Some would compare a chinese cleaver to a truck and a thin graceful gyuto to a Porche. I however, would argue that a good chinese cleaver is much like a Bently, bigger than most sports cars but faster, smoother and more maneuverable than many in the lot. (I'm no car expert but you know what I mean.)


me and you share the passion for them Chinese cleavers if you have a good video on how to use it properly please send me


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

r0bz said:


> me and you share the passion for them Chinese cleavers if you have a good video on how to use it properly please send me



That post was from *10 years ago *and the poster hasn't been on the forum in over a year.


----------



## ModRQC

HumbleHomeCook said:


> That post was from *10 years ago *and the poster hasn't been on the forum in over a year.



How about fueling a full tank...


----------



## Jville




----------



## tchan001

Here is another series which I found interesting. It shows a variety of cleaver skills used for different Chinese dishes.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL00a0G6_TRLWslO7tZFYKNscl7gRR7I2S


----------



## r0bz

when do you guys use the heel section of your vegetable cleaver ?
i find myself never using it


----------



## M1k3




----------



## cotedupy

Which heel...?






Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## stringer

r0bz said:


> when do you guys use the heel section of your vegetable cleaver ?
> i find myself never using it



I use it mainly for putting a ventilation hole in the olive oil can.


----------



## cotedupy

stringer said:


> I use it mainly for putting a ventilation hole in the olive oil can.



Ooooh... fancy!


----------



## ModRQC

stringer said:


> I use it mainly for putting a ventilation hole in the olive oil can.



Let’s call this « The harsh yet unmisteakable truth of a Chinese cleaver’s heel ».


----------



## M1k3

ModRQC said:


> Let’s call this « The harsh yet unmisteakable truth of a Chinese cleaver’s heel ».


And most "house knives".


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## ModRQC

"Heeling" one completely against the pain of their respective incapacities... in one word, and concerning them throughout: "Kill"!



M1k3 said:


> And most "house knives".


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## r0bz

stringer said:


> I use it mainly for putting a ventilation hole in the olive oil can.


is that true or you are joking ?


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## r0bz

cotedupy said:


> Which heel...?
> 
> 
> View attachment 159543



the heel aka the back part of the blade of the cleaver not the tip......


https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a5d763525baf7b610a48b1de1eac5a54-lq


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> is that true or you are joking ?


It's true. Restaurant supply olive oil often comes in an aluminum can. If you don't add a ventilation hole then it won't pour smoothly. It will glug, glug, glug, as it alternates letting out air and oil. It's honestly about the only thing that I use the heel of any knife for.


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## stringer

Also glass jars with metal lids. If the vacuum seal is very strong it can be very difficult to open. But if you break the vacuum by poking a small hole in the metal lid then it's much easier to get the jar open.


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## r0bz

stringer said:


> It's true. Restaurant supply olive oil often comes in an aluminum can. If you don't add a ventilation hole then it won't pour smoothly. It will glug, glug, glug, as it alternates letting out air and oil. It's honestly about the only thing that I use the heel of any knife for.


what i meant if its true is do you really use the heel of the cleaver in order to poke the metal jars ?


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> what i meant if its true is do you really use the heel of the cleaver in order to poke the metal jars ?


Yes it's true. It's a bad habit but I use the heel of whatever knife is within reach. But this is also for giant restaurant supply stuff. Like giant jars of pickles. I wouldn't try it on a little jar of jam.


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## r0bz

stringer said:


> Yes it's true. It's a bad habit but I use the heel of whatever knife is within reach. But this is also for giant restaurant supply stuff. Like giant jars of pickles. I wouldn't try it on a little jar of jam.


do you find any other usage for the heel section of the chinese cleaver ?
i almost never use it


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> do you find any other usage for the heel section of the chinese cleaver ?
> i almost never use it



Honestly about the only other thing I can think of that the heel of a knife is useful for is choil shots. And this is one of those weird things where the cooler the choil shot the less useful the heel of the knife is for anything else.


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## r0bz

stringer said:


> choil shots


you mean taking pictures of the coil ?
i am not talking about the point of the heel cut the section of the blade at the back
look at the vid i mean that part of the cleaver


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> you mean taking pictures of the coil ?
> i am not talking about the point of the heel cut the section of the blade at the back
> look at the vid i mean that part of the cleaver




I use that part for peeling veggies and fruits like squash and melon.


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## r0bz

stringer said:


> I use that part for peeling veggies and fruits like squash and melon.


it works better than the front part as its thinner ?
do you push down when cutting the squash or how do you do it ?
thank you for the answer!!!!!!!


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> it works better than the front part as its thinner ?
> do you push down when cutting the squash or how do you do it ?
> thank you for the answer!!!!!!!



It works just fine. You can use any part of the edge to do any kind of cutting task. Slicing, dicing, peeling, etc. That's what it's designed for. Very well suited. It just takes practice and technique


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> it works better than the front part as its thinner ?
> do you push down when cutting the squash or how do you do it ?
> thank you for the answer!!!!!!!



But yes. Take the top and the bottom off and then with the squash or melon on the board, peel off strips working your way around.


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## stringer

Here's a link to me peeling an acorn squash with a nakiri. Same idea.


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## r0bz

stringer said:


> I use that part for peeling veggies and fruits like squash and melon.


what i meant to ask is what is the advantage of using the heel section in order to do that


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## stringer

r0bz said:


> what i meant to ask is what is the advantage of using the heel section in order to do that



I use the whole edge of a Chinese cleaver or gyuto or nakiri, not just one part. At the top of the squash I start near the toe and at the bottom I end near the heel. The advantage of using the whole edge over just using the middle of the belly all of the time is that it spreads out wear. If you just used the middle of the knife it would dull quickly in that area. 

It also allows for more lateral slicing motion than a straight up and down style that emphasizes one part of the blade. Lateral slicing movement makes knives work better and requires less downward force.

Being able to use the whole edge is an important technique to learn. I make adjustments to my technique on the fly depending on how the knife is going through the product. If I'm cutting peppers with the tip of the knife and I notice it dragging then I'll move to a different part of the edge and see if that works better.


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## Noodle Soup

tchan001 said:


> Here is another series which I found interesting. It shows a variety of cleaver skills used for different Chinese dishes.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL00a0G6_TRLWslO7tZFYKNscl7gRR7I2S


Watched the sharpening vid on this list. He has a different technique than I've saw before. I also found it interesting that unlike most people here, he likes a cleaver with a fair amount of belly and was worried about sharpening it away.


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## KingShapton

Noodle Soup said:


> Watched the sharpening vid on this list. He has a different technique than I've saw before. I also found it interesting that unlike most people here, he likes a cleaver with a fair amount of belly and was worried about sharpening it away.


The interesting thing about the sharpening video is that he only uses a coarse sil-carbide combination stone, estimated # 120 and # 320.

In combination with the sharpening technique demonstrated there, this seems to give an easy cutting, convex geometry with a lot of bite.

I tried this technique a while ago, it creates too much stress on my shoulders. I get the same result with an edge-trailing movement and a little lift at the end of the movement without stressing my shoulders. Much more comfortable for me.


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## Keith Sinclair

stringer said:


> Also glass jars with metal lids. If the vacuum seal is very strong it can be very difficult to open. But if you break the vacuum by poking a small hole in the metal lid then it's much easier to get the jar open.



I like to save glass jars for storing don't want to poke holes in the lid. When I was younger could could open most any jar by hand.

As got older stubborn lids would use a jar opener as seen below had it for years still works fine. 






Choil shots on cleavers how about frontal on a CCK Kau Kong Chopper


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## stringer

Got a new eBay beast tonight. A big old #1.

In between a #2 and my 250 Shi.han for size reference.


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## Rangen

If my cleaver needs sharpening, and won't go through the skin of something like a tomato, I know I should change to a fresher cleaver edge, but sometimes I use the heel to notch a starter slit, and keep going.


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## Rangen

I try never to one-up anyone. It's just rude. Once I did it by accident. I was at a butchery class, and another guy proudly pulled out his No. 2 cleaver, saying that he got it in Hong Kong. I thought, great, sympatico! I pulled out the cleaver I got in Hong Kong, but it was much bigger. Wouldn't have done that, had I known.


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## stringer

Rangen said:


> I try never to one-up anyone. It's just rude. Once I did it by accident. I was at a butchery class, and another guy proudly pulled out his No. 2 cleaver, saying that he got it in Hong Kong. I thought, great, sympatico! I pulled out the cleaver I got in Hong Kong, but it was much bigger. Wouldn't have done that, had I known.



I teach some culinary classes from time to time. I took a couple knives in to show off the other day. Everyone was asking me where they can buy them. I told them flea markets, eBay, and Instagram mostly.


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## BillHanna

Uhhhh. Is that a HANDLE on the most famous Tosa nakiri?


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## stringer

BillHanna said:


> Uhhhh. Is that a HANDLE on the most famous tosa Nakiri?



It is more like a tang saya than a handle. It's just for storage and travel. It gets removed when I use the knife


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## Jville

stringer said:


> Got a new eBay beast tonight. A big old #1.
> 
> In between a #2 and my 250 Shi.han for size reference.
> 
> View attachment 164603


Have the flood gates been open?


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## stringer

Jville said:


> Have the flood gates been open?


Nah, not really. The two I am working on now will keep me occupied for awhile. Most of my eBay budget lately has been going toward mystery oil stones.


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## daniel_il

Any info about this mac cleaver? Seems like they are out of production for a few years. Trying to realise if its worth getting for 100$


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## Rangen

If Mac is making a Mt Fuji cleaver, I'll have to change my whole idea of Mac. Personally I would not hesitate to buy that, were I not already well-supplied with great cleavers. Mac is good stuff.


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## daniel_il

Rangen said:


> If Mac is making a Mt Fuji cleaver, I'll have to change my whole idea of Mac. Personally I would not hesitate to buy that, were I not already well-supplied with great cleavers. Mac is good stuff.



Agree Mac is good stuff. surprised i never seen or heard about this cleaver before


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## Colorado_cutter

I wonder if that could be a rebranded TsuBaZo. Aside from the kanji, it looks like the same thing:
https://www.amazon.com/TSUBAZO-Japa...cphy=9010943&hvtargid=pla-1251318198698&psc=1 

If so, I can say:
1- I like it, anyway. Flat profile, easy to sharpen. But needs thinning out of the box and I find the handle quite slippery, despite it being oak.
2- It is overpriced at $100. CKTG has it for $35. I got mine on sale a few years back for $13.

At any rate, can't say for sure it is the same knife, but if the measurements agree, I suspect it is.


daniel_il said:


> Any info about this mac cleaver? Seems like they are out of production for a few years. Trying to realise if its worth getting for 100$View attachment 165888


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## daniel_il

Colorado_cutter said:


> I wonder if that could be a rebranded TsuBaZo. Aside from the kanji, it looks like the same thing:
> https://www.amazon.com/TSUBAZO-Japa...cphy=9010943&hvtargid=pla-1251318198698&psc=1
> 
> If so, I can say:
> 1- I like it, anyway. Flat profile, easy to sharpen. But needs thinning out of the box and I find the handle quite slippery, despite it being oak.
> 2- It is overpriced at $100. CKTG has it for $35. I got mine on sale a few years back for $13.
> 
> At any rate, can't say for sure it is the same knife, but if the measurements agree, I suspect it is.



look quite similar, the mac suppose to be 200mm length. 








中華包丁 マック CCB-80 No.1901 :20170201-02:tkpshop - 通販 - Yahoo!ショッピング


日本を代表する名山、富士山をモチーフに模様を施してあります。グリップは握りやすい丸柄を使用。日本刀でも有名な包丁の産地、岐阜県関市にて製造。



store.shopping.yahoo.co.jp


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## Southpaw

stringer said:


> It's true. Restaurant supply olive oil often comes in an aluminum can. If you don't add a ventilation hole then it won't pour smoothly. It will glug, glug, glug, as it alternates letting out air and oil. It's honestly about the only thing that I use the heel of any knife for.


This… my Kiri Cleaver by Dauvua is my go to for these tasks


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## kpham12

daniel_il said:


> Any info about this mac cleaver? Seems like they are out of production for a few years. Trying to realise if its worth getting for 100$View attachment 165888


These are a pretty good stainless option for a bit more than $100. Sakai Takayuki INOX Chinese cleaver. They come in 195 mm and a more expensive 210/225 mm version and they have a version with a bolster that looks a little more fancy (and heavier). I think they’re pretty popular for professional use in restaurants in Japan. I believe the INOX in these is molybdenum stainless steel, maybe AUS-8A, at around 59-60 HRC. Good toughness and decent edge retention, easy to sharpen/hone on a rod. Looks a bit thinner behind the edge than the MAC/tsubazo OOTB.









Sakai Takayuki Cleavers Knives for sale | eBay


Get the best deals on Sakai Takayuki Cleavers Knives when you shop the largest online selection at eBay.com. Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices.



www.ebay.com





Chinese Cleaver - Sakai Takayuki - stainless steel - Size:19.5/21cm This version has a bolster and 10% off coupon

Tojiro VG10 cleaver is also a good option, but needs a little thinning out of the box and you need to get rid of the horrible sandblasted finish and they’re pretty heavy.


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## daniel_il

kpham12 said:


> These are a pretty good stainless option for a bit more than $100. Sakai Takayuki INOX Chinese cleaver. They come in 195 mm and a more expensive 210/225 mm version and they have a version with a bolster that looks a little more fancy (and heavier). I think they’re pretty popular for professional use in restaurants in Japan. I believe the INOX in these is molybdenum stainless steel, maybe AUS-8A, at around 59-60 HRC. Good toughness and decent edge retention, easy to sharpen/hone on a rod. Looks a bit thinner behind the edge than the MAC/tsubazo OOTB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sakai Takayuki Cleavers Knives for sale | eBay
> 
> 
> Get the best deals on Sakai Takayuki Cleavers Knives when you shop the largest online selection at eBay.com. Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Cleaver - Sakai Takayuki - stainless steel - Size:19.5/21cm This version has a bolster and 10% off coupon
> 
> Tojiro VG10 cleaver is also a good option, but needs a little thinning out of the box and you need to get rid of the horrible sandblasted finish and they’re pretty heavy.



thanks the Takayuki look nice for the money, I’m eyeing this one for a long time. the 195 could be a little short but the 210 is significantly heavier and I prefer staying under 400 grams. This takes out the nicer tojiro as well. My current stainless cleaver is the shibazi f208, I would go for the Takayuki or sugimoto stainless. Both are nice upgrades.

i also have the cck 2# and sugimoto 1# but recently I’m going for stainless


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## cdhumiston

The Vegetable Cleaver I made for my wife has become her favorite knife. Now she wants to replace all her Henkels with knives I make...

I didn't even know what a Vegetable Cleaver was until she asked for one. Prior to this I was making hunting knives.


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## stringer

cdhumiston said:


> The Vegetable Cleaver I made for my wife has become her favorite knife. Now she wants to replace all her Henkels with knives I make...
> 
> I didn't even know what a Vegetable Cleaver was until she asked for one. Prior to this I was making hunting knives.
> 
> View attachment 165980


Welcome aboard. It looks very interesting. It's hard to get a sense of the scale. How long is it from heel to tip?


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## kpham12

daniel_il said:


> thanks the Takayuki look nice for the money, I’m eyeing this one for a long time. the 195 could be a little short but the 210 is significantly heavier and I prefer staying under 400 grams. This takes out the nicer tojiro as well. My current stainless cleaver is the shibazi f208, I would go for the Takayuki or sugimoto stainless. Both are nice upgrades.
> 
> i also have the cck 2# and sugimoto 1# but recently I’m going for stainless



Got a Sugimoto stainless recently, but it might be a little to short if you’re doing mass prep, about 195 mm. The steel is nice though, feels like it holds an edge longer than other entry level molybdenum stainless steels and it has nice taper for a shorter knife. The problem is most of the 195 mm cleavers weigh around 320-330 ish grams and the ones over 200 mm are going to be 430 or more grams. But you might look for a stainless CCK#2 if you like the carbon one. Edge retention should be comparable to the Shibazi or only a little less while being a lot thinner, over 200 mm and around 300 grams.


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## daniel_il

kpham12 said:


> Got a Sugimoto stainless recently, but it might be a little to short if you’re doing mass prep, about 195 mm. The steel is nice though, feels like it holds an edge longer than other entry level molybdenum stainless steels and it has nice taper for a shorter knife. The problem is most of the 195 mm cleavers weigh around 320-330 ish grams and the ones over 200 mm are going to be 430 or more grams. But you might look for a stainless CCK#2 if you like the carbon one. Edge retention should be comparable to the Shibazi or only a little less while being a lot thinner, over 200 mm and around 300 grams.



the cck is my least favour out of my squad, feels too thin and light when i want to crush garlic or ginger.
I need to try one of those 195mm, should be enough for most tasks. And i got the bigger sugimoto if needed.
Shibazi steel isn’t bad, quite soft but gets fairly sharp.

i guess I’ll buy them all eventually


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## cdhumiston

stringer said:


> Welcome aboard. It looks very interesting. It's hard to get a sense of the scale. How long is it from heel to tip?



Thanks!

It's 6 3/4" heel to tip and right at 4" tall at the heel.


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## Bensonhai

What's a good website to buy cleavers?


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