# Thinking about a workhorse gyuto



## JKerr (Sep 30, 2013)

Thinking about picking up a new gyuto. Got a few ideas in my head of what I want, but nothing solid.

Here's what I'd prefer:
Workhorse gyuto, something with a bit of heft. No lasers please.
250-270mm heel to tip
I would prefer a western handle, but definitely not essential.
I'd prefer carbon, not bothered whether it's clad or not, but I'm also open to stainless. Edge retention is really the biggest priority for me, but I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of retention by going for carbon over stainless. I just prefer the feel of carbon in hand and on the stones.
Preferably something that's good to go out of the box in terms of fit and finish, i.e. nothing I'm going to need to thin significantly before I use it a la Aritsugu. Not bothered if it's a little rough on the handle or around the edges.

Let's say I have a budget of $500, give or take.

Here's a few I was considering:

Carbon:
Mizuno hontanren blue 2 (?)
Fujiwara Teruyasu maboroshi white 1
Gesshin Ino white 2
Ittinomonn western v2
Sugimoto SHM (white ?)
Tanaka blue 2

Stainless:
Hattori FH vg-10
Takeshi Saji R2


For what it's worth, I don't cut much in the way of acidic food where I work so reactivity isn't a big deal.

Feedback and recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Josh


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## JBroida (Sep 30, 2013)

Gesshin ittetsu (ino) should be out... its THIN


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 30, 2013)

There is something so unorthodox about those Ittinomonn gyutos that has me intrigued as well. I've got a Yoshikane yanagi in V2 coming my way soon; it will be my first experience with the steel.


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## JohnnyChance (Sep 30, 2013)

JBroida said:


> Gesshin ittetsu (ino) should be out... its THIN



Agreed. 

But you could switch it out for a Gengetsu or Gesshin Heiji from Jon instead. Obviously, limited (or no) western selections from those brands. And in Gengetsu's case, hard to come by. But these two and Kato are my favorite workhorse knives and some of my favorite knives period.


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## Chuckles (Sep 30, 2013)

I haven't used any of those knives. But picking a work horse for $500 is a pretty sweet situation to be in. I am looking forward to the recommendations.


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## cclin (Sep 30, 2013)

for workhorse gyuto, please add Wanatanbe pro gyuto in your consideration list!


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## K-Fed (Sep 30, 2013)

Tanaka blue2 Damascus and ginsanko are pretty spectacular for the money though the f n f isn't the greatest.


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## Lefty (Sep 30, 2013)

Guys, I have an Itinomonn that I'm letting a member here use. If he doesn't buy it off me, maybe it could be a passaround(?) But, yeah. It's a beautiful workhorse-ish knife.


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## chinacats (Sep 30, 2013)

I don't think Maxim named his Kato 'the workhorse' for no reason. The one I had the pleasure to use was a true beast. I would also second JC's vote for a Gesshin Heiji. I don't think you could go wrong with either.




edit...western would eliminate the GH, and limit the Kato to the 240 @ JNS


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## Seb (Sep 30, 2013)

Western-handle workhorse carbon spells 'Masamoto HC'. Ask Koki to hook you up with a good one.


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## James (Sep 30, 2013)

Saji's a good one. Only gave it an initial sharpening and it's not too noticeably duller after 3 months of home use. A tad sharp on the spine and a little lacking in the distal taper department though.

It is a tad thin behind the edge however. Here's a choil shot I took a couple of months ago


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## JKerr (Sep 30, 2013)

Cheers for the heads up on the Ittetsu, looks a lot more substantial from the pics. And for all the other feedback so far guys.

The Kato is probably getting a bit too expensive, I think the 240 would be a touch too small for my tastes and the 270 is $700+. I have no doubt it's worth every penny though.
The Heiji could be a possibility, been eying those off for a while now. Can anyone make any comparisons of the steel, carbon or semi stainless?
Watanabe's another maker I've been interested in, my only concern with his gyutos is the tip. I've never handled one so it's just speculation from pics I've seen but the tip looks kinda "clunky". Probably a ridiculous concern.
One of the senior chefs at work has a Masamoto HC. It's a nice enough knife, but just doesn't suit me. Can't put my finger on it, it could just be Masamoto in general. I wasn't overly keen with the KS gyuto I had. Again, it's a nice knife, but just didn't suit me.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 30, 2013)

"The Kato is probably getting a bit too expensive, I think the 240 would be a touch too small for my tastes and the 270 is $700+. I have no doubt it's worth every penny though."

My 240 Kato is 249 mm on the edge.


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## EdipisReks (Sep 30, 2013)

NO ChoP! said:


> There is something so unorthodox about those Ittinomonn gyutos that has me intrigued as well. I've got a Yoshikane yanagi in V2 coming my way soon; it will be my first experience with the steel.



V2 is kickass steel.


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## JKerr (Sep 30, 2013)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> "The Kato is probably getting a bit too expensive, I think the 240 would be a touch too small for my tastes and the 270 is $700+. I have no doubt it's worth every penny though."
> 
> My 240 Kato is 249 mm on the edge.



Hmm, could be on the table then. I was going by the measurements on Maxim's site. What's the steel like on the stones and in terms of retention?


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## JKerr (Sep 30, 2013)

Also, if anyone owns a western fujiwara teruyasu gyuto, do the run long, short or spot on?

Cheers,
Josh


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## barramonday (Sep 30, 2013)

I'll second that the Kato is a big 240.
Edge retention is good , feels quite different to my other knives on the stones . It seems to respond very well to my sigma power 6000 as a finisher.


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## brainsausage (Oct 1, 2013)

I'll third that Kato sentiment. Best work horse I've handled. Longish 240, nice comfy spine. Choil on mine could have used a bit more work, but it was much nicer than some others I've experienced. Mine was also one of the earlier ones. I'm with you on the KS. Just didn't do it for me. Gesshin Heiji is my next buy. I won't reccomend it, as I haven't used it. But I really want one. Just saying


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## JKerr (Oct 1, 2013)

There's so much love for the Kato, seems like everyone who's tried one has nothing but good things to say. Think the Kato and the Mizuno are the two front runners at the moment. 
Based on my teruyasu cleaver though, I'd still be keen to check out one of Fujiwara-sans gyutos in the Maboroshi line. He's done a top job with the white 1 in the cleaver. There was a few kinks to sort out, but I've heard the F+F is more consistent with the other lines (on the blade anyway). Just worried that a 240 would be too small if they're measurements are spot on.

Thanks again everyone.

Josh


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## panda (Oct 1, 2013)

the tip is the one drawback of watanabe, it's bullnose and sits kind of high. the 270 is MASSIVE by the way, i am thinking of selling mine and opt for a custom 260mm or so. i would be interested in the mizuno if it were taller. i'm still in search of the one that fits all of my wants. contemplating a full custom tilman as option to hit on every aspect (steel, geometry, profile)

oh you want western handle, then no idea.


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## JKerr (Oct 1, 2013)

panda said:


> the tip is the one drawback of watanabe, it's bullnose and sits kind of high. the 270 is MASSIVE by the way, i am thinking of selling mine and opt for a custom 260mm or so. i would be interested in the mizuno if it were taller. i'm still in search of the one that fits all of my wants. contemplating a full custom tilman as option to hit on every aspect (steel, geometry, profile)
> 
> oh you want western handle, then no idea.



Yeah, I thought the watanabe looked a bit "puggish" at the tip. Really the only chefs knives I use anymore are my Sabs, and I think the profile on them is pretty much perfect so the height of the Mizuno kind of appeals to me. It's funny, I've used lots of great gyutos in the past, but seeing as I've pretty much used cleavers exclusively for the last year I feel like a total newbie again when looking for a new gyuto.

Handle wise, western is preferable but not essential. Most of the knives that are of interest to me are wa-style anyway.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 1, 2013)

I used a Kumagoro as my beefy carbon.I really like that blade.It is by far the largest 240mm I've had looks more like a 270.The hammer finish is good looking & works well.Great Steel.To me they look much better in person than the pics. on EE.I put a Stepan Keller burl octagon Wa on mine.


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## schanop (Oct 1, 2013)

Josh, I have heard you stated a budget of five hundreds, but if you feel like treating your self, Kato kikuryu western handle fits a lot of your criteria, except price :spiteful:

It's a beauty; it's a workhorse; and it has a western handle. Huw can probably vouch for his new western handle version. I can only give a full vote for a wa version though.


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## Von blewitt (Oct 1, 2013)

Yep... It's way over your budget, but its an awesome workhorse, you could just not eat for a couple of months
Just to tempt you



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## JKerr (Oct 1, 2013)

Well, I've already got a few beers in me and I'm off to the pub to catch up with a mate shortly....that would probably make it easier to justify....

How's it perform compared to the wa gyuto? Going by the measurements on JNS it's a lot thinner. Not that I'm actually considering buying one.


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## Von blewitt (Oct 1, 2013)

Yep it's thinner above the heel, for about the first 1/3 then it's pretty similar. Performance is pretty similar

If you were considering going over budget but not so far over I'd consider the 270mm Mizuno Honyaki in white#2 I have the 240 in blue and it is an awesome knife.


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## gic (Oct 1, 2013)

what about a Tanaka Ironwood? Love mine and SG2 is a good steel - am a home cook though so take what I say with lots of salt :- )


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## pkjames (Oct 1, 2013)

Let me know if u want to try the kato. I have a 240mm (thanks huw!)

James


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## JKerr (Oct 1, 2013)

Heard good things about the Tanaka R2/SG2. To be honest though, if I decided to go that route I'd probably just for a Takeshi Saji seeing as I've handled his gyutos before and like his profiles, plus Chefs Armoury stock them so I could pick one out for only slightly more. Saji's knives tend to run long too, not sure about Tanaka's.

Might PM you about the Kato, James. I'd be happy to send some stuff up your way, assuming you'd be interested in playing around with cleavers, don't really have anything else of interest :dontknow:


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## Chuckles (Oct 1, 2013)

Kato is a great knife. If you can try one ahead of time you should. If you are used to Sabs you may be shocked at how hard the Kato is. Sab and Kato are opposite extremes of the spectrum in that regard.


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## JKerr (Oct 1, 2013)

Hardness isn't really a concern, assuming you're talking about rockwell? I've been using Sabs as my chefs knives as they're the only chefs knives I really have around. My go to knives at the moment are a Sugimoto #7 and a Fujiwara Teruyasu cleaver which I think are both around the 63 mark.

Out of interest, does anyone know what the Katos are hardened to? Broken tips and chips don't seem to be that uncommon with them.


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## Chuckles (Oct 1, 2013)

With the understanding that Rockwell hardness most certainly doesn't factor into Kato's process and the fact that I am by no means anything approaching an expert, after discussing this with forum members more knowledgable than myself and based on my experience with the knife I would conservatively GUESS that it is 65-66ish. 

I hope throwing a number out there doesn't start an avalanche. I think the Kato workhorse is one of the most difficult knives to describe by comparing to the other popular knives on the forum. It really needs to be experienced to be believed and properly put in perspective. 

On the chippiness front - I think there could be a tendency to interperate invincibility based on the heft and thickness at the spine while in reality it is still very thin and very hard at the edge.


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## Lefty (Oct 1, 2013)

Chuckles said:


> With the understanding that Rockwell hardness most certainly doesn't factor into Kato's process and the fact that I am by no means anything approaching an expert, after discussing this with forum members more knowledgable than myself and based on my experience with the knife I would conservatively GUESS that it is 65-66ish.
> 
> I hope throwing a number out there doesn't start an avalanche. I think the Kato workhorse is one of the most difficult knives to describe by comparing to the other popular knives on the forum. It really needs to be experienced to be believed and properly put in perspective.
> 
> On the chippiness front - I think there could be a tendency to interperate invincibility based on the heft and thickness at the spine while in reality it is still very thin and very hard at the edge.



I like this post. For what it's worth, the Kato petty I've played with felt fantastic.


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## Chuckles (Oct 1, 2013)

I was hoping this thread would discuss the Mizuno lines more. 

The Mizuno blue steel 270 gyuto for $360 seems like a great value for a workhorse. 

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HontanrenSeries.html#Hontanren

I may have to get one....


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## JKerr (Oct 1, 2013)

Aye, great post. Couldn't agree more with the point of misconception that a fat spine/heavy = beater. The reason I'm so guarded over my cleavers at work.


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## labor of love (Oct 1, 2013)

Chuckles said:


> I was hoping this thread would discuss the Mizuno lines more.
> 
> The Mizuno blue steel 270 gyuto for $360 seems like a great value for a workhorse.
> 
> ...



such a great knife. i sold mine only because im way too picky. the steel has really good retention, but its definitely a great workhorse. also, miz can withstand quite a beating and not chip. the 270mm measures out around 262mm edge length but is a tad short at the heel around 51mm. im much more of a 55-57mm heel height kind of guy. the handle quality is about the same as a ks(which means it definitely benefit from a rehandle IMO).


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## pkjames (Oct 1, 2013)

No worries josh, feel free to let me know. I definitely think kato fits your criteria. I have a takamura r2, but it is a laser, not sure about tanaka / saji.



JKerr said:


> Heard good things about the Tanaka R2/SG2. To be honest though, if I decided to go that route I'd probably just for a Takeshi Saji seeing as I've handled his gyutos before and like his profiles, plus Chefs Armoury stock them so I could pick one out for only slightly more. Saji's knives tend to run long too, not sure about Tanaka's.
> 
> Might PM you about the Kato, James. I'd be happy to send some stuff up your way, assuming you'd be interested in playing around with cleavers, don't really have anything else of interest :dontknow:


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## JohnnyChance (Oct 1, 2013)

JKerr said:


> The Kato is probably getting a bit too expensive, I think the 240 would be a touch too small for my tastes and the 270 is $700+. I have no doubt it's worth every penny though.
> The Heiji could be a possibility, been eying those off for a while now. Can anyone make any comparisons of the steel, carbon or semi stainless?



I have two Gesshin Heiji in semi stainless. It is stainless clad where the carbon is carbon clad. I really like the core steel. It doesn't feel awesome on the stones, a little subued, but the edges I get on it are great and have nice bite. 



JKerr said:


> Hmm, could be on the table then. I was going by the measurements on Maxim's site. What's the steel like on the stones and in terms of retention?



The Kato feels similar to the Heiji on the stones, maybe a little more lively. Edges are nice, edge retention is not as good as the Heiji. It certainly isn't bad, but it isn't a world beater either. I would say it is similar to Shigefusa, nice retention, above average, but nothing great. Shiges feel nicer on the stones though.


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