# First Sharpen



## eighteesix (Jan 10, 2014)

Testing my new sharpening skills on this garbage before my Hiro gets here. All I've got is a King k80 250/1000 stone. Ive followed JKI basic youtube guides. Trying to get this knife as sharp as possible, knowing that its not be capable of extreme sharpness. Any tips? It has a chip and is very dull, but I've made some minor progress my first time around. Im mainly asking because I have no idea what to expect from this blade.


----------



## Notaskinnychef (Jan 11, 2014)

take your time, and keep an eye on your angles, plus keeping an eye on making sure you hit each area equally (subject to damage/thinning). Using the market trick is also helpful. Run a sharpie along the edge and as you slowly remove material you can see where you have hit, and also where you've missed. I know the first time I sharpened (on a hampton forge too ironically enough lol) I wasn't hitting the heel enough and found that I had an indent all the way along below the heel line. Nothing my new few rounds wouldn't cover, but sure looked funny when I took a step back and looked at the carnage. 

As for stones, my knowledge on them is equally crappy as my sharpening knowledge, but for daily use, 1k is usually fine. I have a 4k that I sometimes use depending on the knife, but a lot of the time I just hit the 1k and leave it with that toothy edge. Good luck


----------



## JHunter (Jan 11, 2014)

I like my king 1200 better than the 1000 good $30 to spend and as stated try the marker to get a look at how and where your hitting the edge just relax and it will work


----------



## JDA_NC (Jan 11, 2014)

Which side of the stone have you been using?

In theory you could get that knife pretty darn sharp taking the chips off and putting a new edge w/ the 250, then going to the 1000 and maybe stropping on newspaper (?? not something I do but an idea) to finish.

The problem is it can be easy to do more damage than good with such a coarse stone... especially when learning technique. But since it seems like this knife isn't going to see much use, why not? Take your time and get that sucker nice.. That way you'll have more confidence when you take the Hiro to the stones. Practice makes perfect, right? Just focus on raising, flipping, and removing that burr.

It will also make you appreciate just how nice sharpening your carbon knife is :biggrin: I love my Hiromoto and it sees a whole lot of action. They do need some serious thinning once you wear them down (which is another cool skill to learn) but I don't see that being much of an issue with just occasional home use.


----------



## James (Jan 11, 2014)

Make sure not to push too hard into the stone; keep it light


----------



## Benuser (Jan 11, 2014)

James said:


> Make sure not to push too hard into the stone; keep it light


In general a good advice. With soft stainless on a coarse stone, though, you will need depending on the stone type an incredible pressure when you establish a relief bevel. 
An other specific difficulty with these steels is getting rid of the burr. It's hard because of the large carbides. You have to carefully abrade the burr; once weakened it won't fall off like with other steel types.
Not exactly a good introduction to sharpening practice, I would say.
For learning sharpening, you better have a simple thin carbon blade. Think an Opinel "au carbone", an Old Hickory, a basic Robert Herder or so. Great to understand what it takes to raise a burr, chasing it and getting rid of it.
Soft stainless is probably the most frustrating steel to start with.


----------



## eighteesix (Jan 12, 2014)

I used the marker trick. my angles of approach are all good, per JKI marker video. although im not sure this knife has any edge bevel to speak of. regardless, ive made one now. having a tough time getting it sharper than it is at the moment. ive spent about 10 minutes on the 250x and 5 minutes on the 1000x. wont cut arm hair yet. any further suggestions?


----------



## eighteesix (Jan 12, 2014)

I also used a leather belt to strop. to be honest im not even sure im getting much of a burr yet. very hard to tell.


----------



## Yamabushi (Jan 12, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> I also used a leather belt to strop. to be honest im not even sure im getting much of a burr yet. very hard to tell.



If you are not getting a burr then you are not hitting the actual edge. You may just be thinning at this point.


----------



## Geo87 (Jan 12, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> I also used a leather belt to strop. to be honest im not even sure im getting much of a burr yet. very hard to tell.




Right there is your answer. If your not sure you have a burr or not, then you don't have one. On a coarse stone it will be very noticeable. Do a thumb drag across the edge (Not along! ) it should feel catchy or even kinda sharp from one side( the opposite side to what you just sharpened ) but the other side will not be "catchy" at all . If you are holding the right angle...keep going on one side till your 100 % sure you have a burr...
As it has been mentioned cheap stainless knives are not the best to learn on. Although I guess they are good for practicing maintaining an angle. 
I know learning can get frustrating and confusing but stick at it! Good things shouldn't be easy and this is a skill well worth learning.


----------



## eighteesix (Jan 12, 2014)

like I said, per the marker trick, my angle seems to be good. the only looming question for me is about pressure. one person here said light and another said hard depending on the stainless knife and the stone quality. I also don't know how long it takes to acquire said burr on this knife or any knife for that matter. I've definitely been dragging my finger over the edge and it has seemed like there's an edge on one side and not on the other. if I find that to be the case, what's next? maybe this is where I'm going wrong.

here's what I've got so far. as far as I could tell there was very little edge bevel when I began. solely the blade bevel.


----------



## joetbn (Jan 12, 2014)

Looking good so far, your new bevel looks nice and even. Sounds like you have formed a burr on one side, keep going until you feel that evenly from tip to heel then work the other side of the blade until you feel the same on that side. (burr will form on opposite side that is against stone) Now the tricky part with soft stainless, go from one side to the other with fewer and lighter strokes each time. You should feel that burr flip back and forth to the opposite side each time, and get smaller each time When you feel like you can't get it smaller anymore go to the finer grit stone, or if you are on your finest stone you can strop on leather, balsa, felt, newspaper, and/or run the blade across the end of a soft piece of wood to tear off any remaining burr.


----------



## eighteesix (Jan 12, 2014)

joetbn said:


> with soft stainless, go from one side to the other with fewer and lighter strokes each time. You should feel that burr flip back and forth to the opposite side each time, and get smaller each time When you feel like you can't get it smaller anymore go to the finer grit stone, or if you are on your finest stone you can strop on leather


did this to the best of my ability. not any sharper. maybe i just need to practice and refine my approach. or perhaps the blade itself is partially to blame. should this knife be able to slice off hair? ill have my hiro in hand tomorrow. not sure if and/or how ill sharpen it before use.


----------



## Geo87 (Jan 12, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> did this to the best of my ability. not any sharper. maybe i just need to practice and refine my approach. or perhaps the blade itself is partially to blame. should this knife be able to slice off hair? ill have my hiro in hand tomorrow. not sure if and/or how ill sharpen it before use.



Also I used to do the hair shave test occasionally it's not really a great test I now realise. Unless you plan to shave with it! 
You also have to go to a high level of polish to shave with a blade... 1k with some stropping prob won't . 
Better tests are slicing paper(the finer the paper the better), newspaper is good. If it slices paper with ease it's sharp. if you go slow through the paper you can feel any imperfections in your edge and you can also feel the toothyness of your edge. 
I would say the best test for an edge is an obvious one.... Use the knife! 
Onions are a good test, as are tomatoes... Mushrooms etc 
I think you'll find your hiro a lot easier. Any new J knife I've ever sharpened takes no time at all to form a burr.... Should be less than a minute. So just to reiterate don't get hung up on shave tests! Besides a toothy edge is more practical for an all round knife.


----------



## eighteesix (Jan 12, 2014)

good advice. I wasn't using it as a litmus but was hoping to achieve it at least. I cooked with it this morning, it cuts much better no doubt. onions pepper and broccoli with relative ease. going to try creating and removing burr again and cut some paper.

what's the lowest grit I should start on an AS hiro fresh out of the box? I continually hear they aren't very sharp on arrival. i will examine thinning down the road, getting conflicting reports on thinness.


----------



## Benuser (Jan 12, 2014)

About recent Hiromotos: they come out of the box with an edge of about 6 degree per side, plus a microbevel of some 10 degree right and 15 degree left. That microbevel is a fair indication that you may follow. 
As they come quite thin nowadays thinning is far from urgent.


----------



## eighteesix (Jan 12, 2014)

can't imagine how I'll be able to keep difference of 5 degrees from one side to the other haha wow. I have some studying to do.



Geo87 said:


> Better tests are slicing paper(the finer the paper the better).



i did this and had some limited success. was cutting or partial cutting. im satisfied, considering the blade im sharpening.


----------



## Benuser (Jan 12, 2014)

You don't have to worry about angles and proportions. If you like an existent configuration, you will try to restore it. If you want to do so, feel free.
My only purpose was to indicate the OOTB edge is a very common and workable one, and you may very well stick with it.
You will probably start a few mm above the very edge, go down til you raise a burr, switch side and do the same at the other one. 
The marker trick or the scratch pattern will tell you where you're actually abrading steel, and how far you are from the very edge. And the burr, and only the burr, will tell you you've reached it.


http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry--The-REAL-DEAL


----------



## Geo87 (Jan 12, 2014)

As I said if you insist on achieving an edge that will shave you would need a higher grit polishing stone. Between 3k&6k would be a good next step. In saying that I don't think there's anything wrong with a 1k edge ( with further stropping) 

As for asymmetry ... This can be confusing when learning I must admit I was quite confused by it for a while , the thread benuser suggested is great... But a big read  
The 5 degree difference he mentioned will be easier than you think. If you want to maintain original geometry ( a good idea for now) you can find the angle of each side ( they will be different!) fairly adequately on something like a small cardboard box or a leather belt. Lay the knife flat then slide it along ( edge leading) slowly raising the spine . When it digs in that's the current angle. Not sure if it this would work with microbevels though...benuser please chime in if this is bad advice


----------



## Benuser (Jan 13, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> can't imagine how I'll be able to keep difference of 5 degrees from one side to the other haha wow.


Does either 3/4" or 1 3/16" as a spine - stone distance sound better?


----------



## eighteesix (Jan 13, 2014)

... no? :lol2:

ive got my Hiro in hand now. 60/40 edge. looks so close though.


----------



## Benuser (Jan 13, 2014)

Geo87 said:


> you can find the angle of each side fairly adequately on something like a small cardboard box or a leather belt. Lay the knife flat then slide it along ( edge leading) slowly raising the spine . When it digs in that's the current angle. Not sure if it this would work with microbevels though...benuser please chime in if this is bad advice


This is the way leather stroppers find an angle, but it is a little approximate, the real sharpening angle is a tad lower. And it only works with undamaged edges.
I've cut a few wine corks with angles between 4 and 30 degree I tended to use for reference. In combination with the marker trick it gives a rather accurate angle. But, as beforementioned, it isn't that relevant for sharpening. Look at the scratch pattern and increase the angle til you raise a burr, and you don't need to know whether it was 9 or 11 degree you ended with.


----------

