# Edge Retention- best carbon makers



## Gregmega (Mar 26, 2019)

Hello all-

Looking to tap the collective mind of the group on yet another edge retention page. After a quick search, most the threads are about more alloyed steels, or splintered into other threads. I’m looking for anyone’s input with blues/whites/other high carbons- and more specifically by maker. And if at all possible, makers that aren’t TF[emoji23]. 

Thanks!


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Mar 26, 2019)

Watanabe in Blue 2, Munetoshi in White 2, Mazaki in White is good, I’ve only really used a few in AS but someone is probably particularly good with it...


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 26, 2019)

Awesome. My first Wat shows up in a week or 2.


----------



## hennyville (Mar 26, 2019)

1.2442 heat treated by Achim Wirtz, with proper sharpening progression stays nicely sharp in pro kitchen for more than 10 days.


----------



## Matus (Mar 26, 2019)

hennyville made a very important point here - the way the knife was sharpened has a significant impact on the edge retention under given conditions. 

Plus of course what is sharp enough for one may be already too dull for another.


----------



## tgfencer (Mar 26, 2019)

Matus said:


> hennyville made a very important point here - the way the knife was sharpened has a significant impact on the edge retention under given conditions.
> 
> Plus of course what is sharp enough for one may be already too dull for another.



In terms of that family of European steels like the 1.2442 Hennyville mentioned (which I love), as I understand it and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but edge retention and Japanese equivalents goes roughly as follows:

1.2519=Aogami 2 <<< 1.2442=Aogami 1 <<< Aogami Super <<<<<< 1.2562

Personally, I have used and like them all. Catcheside, Dalman, and Robert Trimarchi all use some of these European steels, as do other Western makers. 

As for Japanese makers, Wat and Toyama have already been mentioned. Also, just my two cents, but for a midweight blade, Hinoura treated aogomi super is a excellent and about half the price of TF.


----------



## hennyville (Mar 26, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> 1.2519=Aogami 2 <<< 1.2442=Aogami 1 <<< Aogami Super <<<<<< 1.2562


 
You are right, but i am still pretty sure that key point is HT, makers you mentioned are very skillfull in their HT i think, never tried any of them. 

and +1 for the Toyama, probably best ao2 i ever tried.


----------



## panda (Mar 26, 2019)

Hinoura white 2, Marko 52100


----------



## tgfencer (Mar 26, 2019)

hennyville said:


> You are right, but i am still pretty sure that key point is HT, makers you mentioned are very skillfull in their HT i think, never tried any of them.
> 
> and +1 for the Toyama, probably best ao2 i ever tried.



Oh yeah, heat treat is definitely key along with user sharpening. I just assumed that was a given in this conversation, but probably should have made it clear.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 26, 2019)

Mario Ingoglia's W2 (not white #2) honyaki has great edge retention.


----------



## Barmoley (Mar 26, 2019)

As others mentioned already, sharpening angle makes a huge difference. Larrin showed in his testing that angle has a very significant effect on how long an edge cuts. This seems to imply that if you could find a steel/heattreat that will support an acute angle without crumbling, you'll be able to make simple carbons have very high edge retention.

The best I've tried so far for "simple" carbons has been 1.2442 by Catcheside and Tilman, but 1.2442 is closer to blue 1 as far as alloying elements go. Also, I agree with Matus that what is sharp enough for some is not for others. For me, I don't care if the knife doesn't shave, but if tomatoes don't fall apart and run in pieces screaming in different directions when I just touch them with an edge then the knife is not sharp enough. So thin, hard edges finished around 4000 grid with some carbides seem to work best for me.


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 26, 2019)

hennyville said:


> You are right, but i am still pretty sure that key point is HT, makers you mentioned are very skillfull in their HT i think, never tried any of them.
> 
> and +1 for the Toyama, probably best ao2 i ever tried.



Boom. Heat treat is everything (or at least the foundation). 

I have one of the early Maz that somehow holds up for a solid week in a pro environment, somehow the edge deterioration makes for the steel to still feel toothy (and downright sharp with a single strop) for longer than a lot of blues I’ve tried. I’m terribly demanding on these things. 

Also am on Evans list very soon for sc125 and a Raquin as well. We shall see. Also my first Wat custom. 

-Barmoley- spoken like a pro- it’s pretty rare for me (and I think most pros) to go above 3-4K in a pro setting. At some point the polishing and higher grits actually work against you in so many ways. Now I use an aizu for final edge. Which when used on a Toyama is akin to when Ash attached a chainsaw to his arm. In a good way.


----------



## HRC_64 (Mar 26, 2019)

hennyville said:


> 1.2442 heat treated by Achim Wirtz, with proper sharpening progression stays nicely sharp in pro kitchen for more than 10 days.



during tomato season what happens?


----------



## DitmasPork (Mar 26, 2019)

My carbons that rock in the edge retention category are Watanabe, JNS Mazaki (old profile, new grind) and Kato WH.


----------



## hennyville (Mar 26, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> during tomato season what happens?


good point ) 

its not falling through, but still can cut tomatoes "easily" with almost zero pressure. but you know, i am in Czech rep, not in Italy. mass produced tomatoes here sucks )


----------



## labor of love (Mar 26, 2019)

Yeah, that Mazaki older had great retention. 
Nobody ever mentions great edge retention with regards to Fujiyamas, is this a case of a super thin edge getting beaten up on the board?


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 26, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yeah, that Mazaki older had great retention.
> Nobody ever mentions great edge retention with regards to Fujiyamas, is this a case of a super thin edge getting beaten up on the board?



Finally landed my first wide bevel from 2015/6 in b2. Yet to put it on the boards. I’ll def put it to the test and give feedback.


----------



## HRC_64 (Mar 26, 2019)

super thin edges are almost never durable
(not sure if its geometry or flex or what?)


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 26, 2019)

The Maz that I have with great retention are pretty thin bte, so I’m not sure that is necessarily entirely consistent from knife to knife. I do believe heat would be the primary factor.


----------



## dwalker (Mar 26, 2019)

Togashi white 2 honyaki is special, as well as Ikeda white 3.


----------



## Tonsku38 (Mar 26, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> super thin edges are almost never durable
> (not sure if its geometry or flex or what?)



My Shibata Kotetsu AS has better retention and then my Kaeru gyuto. Even with plastic board.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 26, 2019)

Tonsku38 said:


> My Shibata Kotetsu AS has better retention and then my Kaeru gyuto. Even with plastic board.


Oh yeah, my HSPS Pro takamura has the thinnest edge, and unreal edge retention to go with it-but not very durable at all. But also not carbon so I guess the point is moot.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 26, 2019)

Overall I think takeda and watanabe have the best retention of all carbons I’ve used...Marko 52100 takes the cake for edge stability IMO. But I haven’t touched nearly as many $500+ knives as you guys have.


----------



## DevinT (Mar 26, 2019)

1.2562 is the most wear resistant low alloy steel. With proper heat treatment. 

Hoss


----------



## labor of love (Mar 26, 2019)

DevinT said:


> 1.2562 is the most wear resistant low alloy steel. With proper heat treatment.
> 
> Hoss


God has spoken.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 26, 2019)




----------



## Nemo (Mar 26, 2019)

DevinT said:


> 1.2562 is the most wear resistant low alloy steel. With proper heat treatment.
> 
> Hoss


Is this because of the volume and hardness of carbides, the carbon composition (which presumably allows a higher volume of spheroidised iron carbide) or something else?


----------



## DevinT (Mar 26, 2019)

Some things that affect wear resistance are carbide volume, carbide type, carbide size, carbide distribution, hardness of the matrix, amount of alloy in the matrix, grain size, toughness, how course the sharpening, edge angle, etc. 

Chemical composition is the first thing to look at, next is the manufacturing process, cast wrought, spray form or PM. Next would be proper heat treatment. 

Knife makers that become familiar with certain alloys and their HT usually have more success. 

Hoss


----------



## Migraine (Mar 26, 2019)

Nemo said:


> Is this because of the volume and hardness of carbides, the carbon composition (which presumably allows a higher volume of spheroidised iron carbide) or something else?



I heard it's because it's dad was emotionally distant as a child.


----------



## M1k3 (Mar 26, 2019)

DevinT said:


> Some things that affect wear resistance are carbide volume, carbide type, carbide size, carbide distribution, hardness of the matrix, amount of alloy in the matrix, grain size, toughness, how course the sharpening, edge angle, etc.
> 
> Chemical composition is the first thing to look at, next is the manufacturing process, cast wrought, spray form or PM. Next would be proper heat treatment.
> 
> ...



And cutting board material. And how often the edge hits hard food (bone, shells, etc.)

That said, what I believe to be A2 steel, Takamura.


----------



## inferno (Mar 26, 2019)

DevinT said:


> 1.2562



*C 1.35-1.50
Si 0.15-0.30
Mn 0.20-0.40
P/S 0.035
Cr 0.20-0.50 
V 0.20-0.30
W 2.80-3.30 
*
looks like a type of aogami super plus  
maybe they should call it aogami hyper?


*AS=
C*- - - - 1.40-1.50
*Si* - - - - 0.10-0.20
*Mn* - - - - 0.20-0.30
*Ni* - - - - -
*Cr* - - - - 0.30-0.50
*Mo* - - - - -
*W* - - - - 2.00-2.50
*V* - - - - 0.30-0.50
*Co* - - - - -
*others* - - - - P:<=0.025, S:<=0.004 Specialty melting


----------



## panda (Mar 26, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yeah, that Mazaki older had great retention.
> Nobody ever mentions great edge retention with regards to Fujiyamas, is this a case of a super thin edge getting beaten up on the board?


no; fujiyama are just junk, lol


----------



## hennyville (Mar 27, 2019)

inferno said:


> maybe they should call it aogami hyper?


no, they are Germans


----------



## Mute-on (Mar 27, 2019)

Toyama blue 2 and Kato WH IME


----------



## krx927 (Mar 27, 2019)

But the question of edge retention, I think, is way more important to pro users. For me as home cook it is even hard to judge. I have many knives that I use more or less randomly. Really hard to tell how much you used one knife compared to another and they trying to estimate edge retention.

For pro users that use one knife regularly for certain tasks it is much easier to judge and of course also much more important.

And then again, I am under the impression that majority of folks here also like to sharpen. So with a lot of knives and too good edge retention, you do not get to sharpen a lot.


----------



## Larrin (Mar 27, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> And cutting board material. And how often the edge hits hard food (bone, shells, etc.)


That affects edge retention not wear resistance.


----------



## Timthebeaver (Mar 27, 2019)

Aogami hype-r sounds like the mystery steel that Kato uses. Apparently the edge retention of this steel increases tenfold if kanji that looks like it has done by a five year old is chiselled onto the cladding.


----------



## Barmoley (Mar 27, 2019)

krx927 said:


> And then again, I am under the impression that majority of folks here also like to sharpen. So with a lot of knives and too good edge retention, you do not get to sharpen a lot.



I look at sharpening as a necessary evil. I like how fresh off the stones edge cuts. If there was a material that could keep that kind of an edge for a very long time, I think I would be ok not sharpening. There is some calming effect to the sharpening process itself, but if I didn't have to, I don't think I would do it just for the fun of it.


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 27, 2019)

Good points by krx & Barmoley, and that’s kinda the genesis of this discussion for me. I wish it was more ‘fun’ to sharpen. 

I work in pro kitchens, very demanding places. The time I find to sharpen isn’t a zen retreat, or to seek an aesthetic end, it’s to get my tools as sharp as possible for as long as possible. So for me the chase for edge retention beats out most other aspects in my ‘for work’ purchases. 

I couldn’t fall in love with Toyama, the larger Wat shows up this week, and a few other customs are close to being done. With the kitchens I’m in & out of, I’m not super comfortable bringing the Kato or other hard-to-get knives. And I think that’s why Maz has made so much sense, they’re high impact, low input values that give back 10 fold. 

The search continues.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 27, 2019)

To me Mazaki took wat/Toyama blade shape and evolved the tip somewhat. Mazaki has several tip shapes all of which I like. With wat and Toyama I feel like I’m just using a mini cleaver.


----------



## Tonsku38 (Mar 27, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Oh yeah, my HSPS Pro takamura has the thinnest edge, and unreal edge retention to go with it-but not very durable at all. But also not carbon so I guess the point is moot.


What do you mean not very durable? Micro chipping?


----------



## labor of love (Mar 27, 2019)

Yes, high hardness pared with a very very low angle edge makes for a not so durable edge. All that means is takamura isn’t made for abuse.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 27, 2019)

Also, I’m really not complaining. I want a second takamura really badly. Only interested in the HSPS pro line though.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Mar 27, 2019)

Not very cost effective but Honyaki have good edge retention for a pro kitchen. Think you will like your Watanabe B2. Not a light weight but a good cutter.

Couple months ago got a good deal on a TF white #1. It is a nice knife, only using it as a home blade on a end grain board. The edge retention is excellent only sharpened it once & like my blades to fall through vine ripe tomato's. Was going to rehandle it, but the Ho with horn is thicker & not too long just the way I like them. 

In a pro kitchen cutting on plastic boards ease of sharpening is important too.


----------



## panda (Mar 27, 2019)

TF heat treat is perfectly suited for pro kitchen. is both tough and has good wear resistance, just gotta tweak the grind. wat edge lasts forever but is annoying to sharpen, grind is amazing but profile is not to my liking.


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 27, 2019)

I just don’t see myself dropping 1k on a denka anytime soon and then not babying it like a Kato. Also not down for for the long road to get a thousand dollar knife where I want it. Do they still sell the denka with a 1k stone and a pack of sandpaper? Or was it a brick and re-handle kit?

So TF is still not on the list, as much as inzite still plagues me about it.


----------



## inferno (Mar 27, 2019)

hennyville said:


> no, they are Germans



blaues papier hyper!!


----------



## panda (Mar 27, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I just don’t see myself dropping 1k on a denka anytime soon and then not babying it like a Kato. Also not down for for the long road to get a thousand dollar knife where I want it. Do they still sell the denka with a 1k stone and a pack of sandpaper? Or was it a brick and re-handle kit?
> 
> So TF is still not on the list, as much as inzite still plagues me about it.


was referring to the white1 maboroshi series, theyre basically ultimate beaters.


----------



## HRC_64 (Mar 27, 2019)

Neither of the TF comments were referring to Denka...
Maraboshi has always been $400, only just now is closer to $500.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 27, 2019)

Oddly enough when someone only says TF I assume they must be talking about maraboshi lol. TF is great but needs lot of love and tweaking.


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 27, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Neither of the TF comments were referring to Denka...
> Maraboshi has always been $400, only just now is closer to $500.



All semantics aside- it’s still a 500$ knife with tremendous ootb issues. Thanks tho. I’ll take another look at an overpriced fixer-upper.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 27, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> All semantics aside- it’s still a 500$ knife with tremendous ootb issues. Thanks tho. I’ll take another look at an overpriced fixer-upper.


This is how I feel too. I had one, appreciated it for what it was and wrote fondly of it here. At the end of the day I wouldn’t want another one.


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 27, 2019)

There must be something to them. They just keep coming up! Just can’t shut off that voice that says ‘are you really gonna drop 500/1k on that’ - when there’s all the other amazing knives in that range.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 28, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> There must be something to them. They just keep coming up! Just can’t shut off that voice that says ‘are you really gonna drop 500/1k on that’ - when there’s all the other amazing knives in that range.


Yeah if you’re really into steel performance and downplay other attributes they are great. Profile is pretty nice too. But at the end of the day it’s an incomplete knife ootb.


----------



## Chicagohawkie (Mar 28, 2019)

I just picked up 2 TFs a 240 Nashiji gyuto and a 120 Maboroshi petty. 240 is chock full of issues and I don’t use pettys. Silly me.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 28, 2019)

I know this isn’t Carbon but I did just purchase this sld knife.
https://www.chefsarmoury.com/collections/kaiden-kodo/products/kaiden-kodo-240mm-gyuto
I already have a Yoshikane sld, which is a fabulous specimen of enjoyable stainless sharpening that offers loads of edge retention. 
I can report back if you’re open to semi stainless.


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 28, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I know this isn’t Carbon but I did just purchase this sld knife.
> https://www.chefsarmoury.com/collections/kaiden-kodo/products/kaiden-kodo-240mm-gyuto
> I already have a Yoshikane sld, which is a fabulous specimen of enjoyable stainless sharpening that offers loads of edge retention.
> I can report back if you’re open to semi stainless.



I’ve always wanted to try an sld, I’ve even threatened my friends that I’m going all stainless/semi soon[emoji23]. I recently sold my Tanaka ironwood for a song (to a guy that will use it twice as much as I did) and seeing the pics on ig made me a bit sad. So short answer- yes, I’d love to hear the results!


----------



## Dan P. (Mar 28, 2019)

I don't know how edge retention correlates to wear resistance without factoring in the other variables, but 1.2442 monosteel is an utter bastard to grind.


----------



## Matus (Mar 28, 2019)

Dan P. said:


> I don't know how edge retention correlates to wear resistance without factoring in the other variables, but 1.2442 monosteel is an utter bastard to grind.



The 1.2442 does indeed require some effort to grind after HT, but still a several classes easier than Niolox  I still need to test the Niolox more to get a better feel on the edge retention though.


----------



## lemeneid (Mar 28, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> All semantics aside- it’s still a 500$ knife with tremendous ootb issues. Thanks tho. I’ll take another look at an overpriced fixer-upper.


I got a different take on it. IMO, no knives come ootb perfect. That’s why all my knives go through some modifications after I receive them. All of them have gone through some form of thinning and all have come out better in terms of cutting power and food release. 

It’s just that TF needs a little more love than most other knives. But when it comes to HT, edge retention and sharpness, no other knife comes close. That’s the perfect knife to start with if you want to work on perfection if you ask me.

So it’s TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF

Otherwise it’s Toyama/Watanabe for me


----------



## Elliot (Mar 28, 2019)

For what it's worth, and keep in mind I am FAR from a pro-kitchen user, Yoshikane SLD is sublime. I bought it six months ago and am still with ootb edge.


----------



## tgfencer (Mar 28, 2019)

Elliot said:


> For what it's worth, and keep in mind I am FAR from a pro-kitchen user, Yoshikane SLD is sublime. I bought it six months ago and am still with ootb edge.



I agree. Although I'm in similar circumstances to Elliot now, I definitely would have rocked this back when I worked in the industry. Profile is spot on too, in my opinion. I go back and forth on my feelings about the look of the damascus (and i'd be wary of taking into a workplace with coworkers i didn't trust since it would attract attention) but performance is top notch.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 28, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> I agree. Although I'm in similar circumstances to Elliot now, I definitely would have rocked this back when I worked in the industry. Profile is spot on too, in my opinion. I go back and forth on my feelings about the look of the damascus (and i'd be wary of taking into a workplace with coworkers i didn't trust since it would attract attention) but performance is top notch.


Yes, I’m normally not one for Damascus but Yoshikane sld is really pretty in person. Almost too pretty for work-attracts attention from co workers that I’d not want using it.
On a related note, there’s an old school forum member here that told me he let all his work honyakis collect massive patinas and polish all the work dexters so his co workers would only be attracted to the house knives and leave his stuff alone


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 28, 2019)

Now there’s a smart chef!


----------



## tgfencer (Mar 28, 2019)

That’s wily. The less flashy the better in many pro kitchens, I think that why I still prefer simple san mai and monosteels to damascus and crazy polished honyaki.


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 28, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> I got a different take on it. IMO, no knives come ootb perfect. That’s why all my knives go through some modifications after I receive them. All of them have gone through some form of thinning and all have come out better in terms of cutting power and food release.
> 
> It’s just that TF needs a little more love than most other knives. But when it comes to HT, edge retention and sharpness, no other knife comes close. That’s the perfect knife to start with if you want to work on perfection if you ask me.
> 
> ...



I see where you’re coming from for sure, however when I paid 450 for my first Shig, I didn’t think to myself- ‘damn, I gotta thin this bad boy down and change the geometry....’ It’s akin to Will Farrell editing 5 minutes out of Goodfellas (The Other Guys). So I think if a Mabaroshi fell out of the sky in decent shape for that price, I’d have to weigh my options as I’ve purchased 20 other knives in the same price range that came without daddy issues[emoji23]. 

Come to think of it, it’s pretty overwhelmingly been put to me here that TF is the best for what I’m asking [emoji848]...


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 28, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> That’s wily. The less flashy the better in many pro kitchens, I think that why I still prefer simple san mai and monosteels to damascus and crazy polished honyaki.



So TF wabi-sabi is perfect for kitchens straight ootb..[emoji848][emoji848] 

Those old western sld they used to do were so cool tho, I’d forego my dislike of damascus to have one of those...


----------



## HRC_64 (Mar 28, 2019)

If you cut 4 hours a day at work for 4 years,
spending even 5 hours setting up your knife
is 1/2 of ONE percent of your hours with that knife.


----------



## tgfencer (Mar 28, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> So TF wabi-sabi is perfect for kitchens straight ootb..[emoji848][emoji848]
> 
> Those old western sld they used to do were so cool tho, I’d forego my dislike of damascus to have one of those...



I’m not necessarily recommending TF. Personally, I might be tempted by something like an SLD Masashi it a semi-stainless Heiji if I still worked in kitchens. 

What I meant by the less flashy the better is that, depending on your work environment, flashy/expensive stuff mysteriously vanishes or gets misused. In the right scenario, with a tight, reliable group of properly educated folks in the kitchen, I wouldn’t be too worried about it.

Yeah the old sld stuff was cool. I don’t dislike the current version, I just sometimes look at it and think I’d rather have the same knife without the dammy premium pricing tacked on.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 28, 2019)

While I agree with your point about flashy knives, I’d say there’s some pragmatic reasons to prefer Yoshikane over Masashi sld. First the sharpening experience is entirely different and Yoshikane sld cladding isn’t the normal soft stainless cladding the we commonly see. It’s harder...or something...doesn’t get scratched up through daily wear.
Both great knives though. I think the price difference can be understood better with both knives in hand.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 28, 2019)

But yeah, I spent $588-600 on my yoshi sld western(it’s totally worth it), I’d gladly get the exact same knife minus Damascus for $550.


----------



## tgfencer (Mar 28, 2019)

Yeah I agree with you that the Yoshikane is better overall and would win in a head to head for me, though for some the lower price tag or different profile might warrant the slightly less desirable qualities of the Masashi. All depends on what you’re looking for really.


----------



## Sharpchef (Mar 28, 2019)

High edge retention.

1rst. Stay away from San Mai blades....
2nd. choose 1.2562  . 
3rd. sharpen with a pressure control JIG 

I tested some, and 1.2562 is as good as HAP40 and MC390, and just a little bit less edge retention then "supersteels" like Vanadis 23..... 

Carbon only (good HT should be given) : 1.2562, 1.2442/1.2519 (nearly equal), Aogami Super, Aogami 2 (Wat or Toyama), 1.3505, 1.2008 ...... 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Tonsku38 (Mar 28, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yes, high hardness pared with a very very low angle edge makes for a not so durable edge. All that means is takamura isn’t made for abuse.


Luckily Shibata hasn't got that "problem" so it can take pretty much abuse.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 28, 2019)

Tonsku38 said:


> Luckily Shibata hasn't got that "problem" so it can take pretty much abuse.


Microbevel fixes the durability issue pretty well.


----------



## Nemo (Mar 28, 2019)

I don't feel as though I have tried enough makers (probably only 30 different makers) to make an authoritative post on this. Even if I had, as a home user, it is often weeks between sharpenings so it's less easy to compare edge retention.

Given that, I think that Watanabe blue2 stands out for me.


----------



## Barmoley (Mar 28, 2019)

Do you guys prefer your edges deforming by bending, flattening or micro chipping? I used to be strongly in the no micro chipping camp, but lately I am finding that micro chipping is easier to fix and in general micro chipped edges cut better than flattened, bent edges. I'd prefer the edge did neither, and I really mean micro chipping, tiny, tiny chips nothing major. Because of this I seem to prefer harder edges lately.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Mar 28, 2019)

Sounds like you have quite a few knives. The Watanabe is a assem. tall grind that cuts well. You don't need to change the profile.

Only rounded the spine on my TF white. Feel no need to change the grind. Picked it up on BST unused for 300.00.

In my kit at work had knives like the Wat. that are more heavy duty. Also like thin lasers. If you want a very thin grind just buy a thin knife. The plus out weighs the negative of lasers in the workforce. I can't count the benefits of a thin blade even in banquets, but esp. when working as Head Gardemanger. The edge is more fragile just don't do stupid things with it. There is less steel so they wear down sooner that a thicker blade. Just buy another one. These days you can get good edge retention thin blades both mono steel and san mai for 200.00-300.00.


----------



## panda (Mar 28, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> There must be something to them. They just keep coming up! Just can’t shut off that voice that says ‘are you really gonna drop 500/1k on that’ - when there’s all the other amazing knives in that range.


The steel is top tier.


----------



## Iggy (Mar 28, 2019)

To be honest... TF Denka's edge retention is the best I've tried so far from Japan (besides high alloyed and PM... then I think Sukenari YXR7 or HAP40 would be your best choice).... of course TF has massive quality control issues and variations, so what you do? You travel to Tokyo, select the best one from the batch, buy only the blade and let a good custom maker (in this case Xerxes) make the handle and edge... 







But on topic...

DT is absolutely correct, 1.2562 is the best carbon steel IMHO, no doubt about that...
followed by 1.2442/1.2419,05 from Catcheside or Xerxes, 1.2519, good HT Aogami Super, Aogami2 from Watanabe and me personally, I like the Heiji Carbon very much.

In terms of edge retention no Shirogami, SC125/145 (not even Honyakis), 1.2008, W2, 52100 can hold a candle to the steels mentioned above.

Just my two cents.

Regards, Iggy


----------



## lemeneid (Mar 28, 2019)

Those are two sexy Denkas. It’s my plan to go to Tokyo and pick up a unicorn TF there. And pick up some natural stones on the way. But I need to find time in my schedule to make this happen.

For now my laser thinned Maboroshi will have to do


----------



## bahamaroot (Mar 28, 2019)

Iggy said:


> ...DT is absolutely correct...


Like we doubted him.


----------



## YG420 (Mar 28, 2019)

In my limited experience, top 3 are:

Devin Thomas pd-1

Will Catcheside catchy blue (forgot what that was) and 1.2442

Rader 5 steel


----------



## panda (Mar 28, 2019)

Iggy said:


> DT is absolutely correct, 1.2562 is the best carbon steel IMHO, no doubt about that...
> followed by 1.2442/1.2419,05 from Catcheside or Xerxes, 1.2519, good HT Aogami Super, Aogami2 from Watanabe and me personally, I like the Heiji Carbon very much.
> 
> In terms of edge retention no Shirogami, SC125/145 (not even Honyakis), 1.2008, W2, 52100 can hold a candle to the steels mentioned above.
> ...


heiji carbon and mizuno honyaki white2 are the two best steels ive come across (for my tastes) but rather unimpressive when it comes to retention. 

to the OP, i know you asked for carbon only, but being used in a pro setting perhaps consider semi-stainless? i have a 'customized' heiji on my way soon and will report back on how it is on the retention front.


----------



## DevinT (Mar 28, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> High edge retention.
> 
> 1rst. Stay away from San Mai blades....
> 2nd. choose 1.2562  .
> ...



What’s wrong with san-mai? 

Hoss


----------



## panda (Mar 28, 2019)

DevinT said:


> What’s wrong with san-mai?
> 
> Hoss


i want to try devin's spicy white san mai


----------



## bryan03 (Mar 29, 2019)

DevinT said:


> What’s wrong with san-mai?
> 
> Hoss



honyaki is of course wayyyyy better than sanmai, especially supa blue when it is quenched in slush. it make a very durable edge and make the steel almost stainless.


----------



## Marek07 (Mar 29, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I know this isn’t Carbon but I did just purchase this sld knife.
> https://www.chefsarmoury.com/collections/kaiden-kodo/products/kaiden-kodo-240mm-gyuto
> I already have a Yoshikane sld, which is a fabulous specimen of enjoyable stainless sharpening that offers loads of edge retention.
> I can report back if you’re open to semi stainless.


Like @Gregmega, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Kaiden Kodo.  If not in this thread, somewhere else.


----------



## Iggy (Mar 29, 2019)

YG420 said:


> Will Catcheside catchy blue (forgot what that was) and 1.2442l



It's 1.2419.05 ... quite similar to 1.2442 actually.

Heiji Carbon... I don't know but I feel my Heiji Carbon Nakiri stays sharp really really long, but of course it could be due to the different technique I'm working with using a Nakiri compared to a Gyuto


----------



## RDalman (Mar 29, 2019)

bryan03 said:


> honyaki is of course wayyyyy better than sanmai, especially supa blue when it is quenched in slush. it make a very durable edge and make the steel almost stainless.



I only quench in cows diarrhea, and it's important to do it facing odin and screaming viking jokes. It makes the steel hard, sometimes.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 29, 2019)

Marek07 said:


> Like @Gregmega, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Kaiden Kodo.  If not in this thread, somewhere else.


I’ll post my thoughts on the Kaiden Kodo thread.


----------



## Bert2368 (Mar 29, 2019)

hennyville said:


> i am in Czech rep, not in Italy. mass produced tomatoes here sucks )



Pretty much ALL tomatoes EVERYWHERE that are bred to be picked under ripe, shipped without squishing, appeal to buyers solely by appearances and be sold to people who can't taste them first suck!

If you can find some dirt with exposure to the sun? These have been some of the best TASTING sauce/cooking tomatoes I have grown...

"Pompei"

https://www.reneesgarden.com/products/tomato-plum-italian-pompeii

"Oxheart"

https://www.ufseeds.com/product/red-oxheart-tomato-seeds/

"Amish Paste"

https://www.fedcoseeds.com/seeds/?item=4140

Life is to short to eat (or cook with!) bad tomatoes...


----------



## Dan P. (Mar 29, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> 1.2442/1.2519 (nearly equal)
> QUOTE]
> 
> That's interesting. I said before that abrasion resistance may not directly correlate to edge retention, but whatever the case, those two steels are very different to grind. 2519 is not hugely different from O1 or other low alloy carbon steels. 2442 on the other hand is a real turd.
> Maybe I got steel from a batch particularly high in W, but it has proven even more difficult to abraded than 2562.


----------



## lemeneid (Mar 29, 2019)

bryan03 said:


> honyaki is of course wayyyyy better than sanmai, especially supa blue when it is quenched in slush. it make a very durable edge and make the steel almost stainless.


Never seen honyaki AS before though. Is it that difficult to forge??


----------



## DevinT (Mar 29, 2019)

bryan03 said:


> honyaki is of course wayyyyy better than sanmai, especially supa blue when it is quenched in slush. it make a very durable edge and make the steel almost stainless.



Either you’re trolling, trying to be funny, or don’t know what you’re talking about. Your statement is ridiculous. 

Hoss


----------



## Barmoley (Mar 29, 2019)

DevinT said:


> Either you’re trolling, trying to be funny, or don’t know what you’re talking about. Your statement is ridiculous.
> 
> Hoss



Bryan is joking. He makes excellent san mai knives, but he is French, so what do you expect... I kid, I kid...


----------



## DevinT (Mar 29, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Bryan is joking. He makes excellent san mai knives, but he is French, so what do you expect... I kid, I kid...



Thanks, I was worried for a minute there. 

He did get a rise out of me, like he wanted. At my age, I don’t catch on sometimes. 

Hoss


----------



## Anton (Mar 29, 2019)

Japan - mizuno white 2 honyaki, if I sharpen correctly 

Western - xerxes 1.2562 and most things by DT


----------



## Ruso (Mar 29, 2019)

Takeda’s AS is up there


----------



## bryan03 (Mar 29, 2019)

DevinT said:


> Thanks, I was worried for a minute there.
> 
> He did get a rise out of me, like he wanted. At my age, I don’t catch on sometimes.
> 
> Hoss



sorry old man.
of course it was a joke....


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 29, 2019)

View attachment 50896


Well this arrived this morning. Custom 225x52


----------



## ashy2classy (Mar 29, 2019)

Anton said:


> Japan - mizuno white 2 honyaki, if I sharpen correctly
> 
> Western - xerxes 1.2562 and most things by DT



The Xerxes I had (now with @Barmoley ) was smokin'. I hope I can get something from Jannis someday.


----------



## Barmoley (Mar 29, 2019)

Yeah, the Xerxes is a cutting machine, thanks Kevin. So far edge retention and stability is at a very high level. Haven't had it enough to know if it will dethrone the current edge retention champs PD1 by Devin and 1.2442 by Catcheside.


----------



## DitmasPork (Mar 29, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> View attachment 50896
> 
> 
> Well this arrived this morning. Custom 225x52


Nice! Looking forward to hearing your observations on that Wat!


----------



## K813zra (Mar 29, 2019)

RDalman said:


> I only quench in cows diarrhea, and it's important to do it facing odin and screaming viking jokes. It makes the steel hard, sometimes.



And I just shot coffee out of my nose.


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 29, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Nice! Looking forward to hearing your observations on that Wat!



So far I’m super impressed. Kinda shocked I waited this long actually!


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 29, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Nice! Looking forward to hearing your observations on that Wat!



So far I’m super impressed. Kinda shocked I waited this long actually!


----------



## labor of love (Mar 29, 2019)

You’re all set.


Gregmega said:


> So far I’m super impressed. Kinda shocked I waited this long actually!


throw out your sharpening stones. Won’t be using those anymore.


----------



## inferno (Mar 29, 2019)

RDalman said:


> I only quench in cows diarrhea, and it's important to do it facing odin and screaming viking jokes. It makes the steel hard, sometimes.


i heard that if you quench O1 in powdered dung beetles it will turn more stainless than 304.


----------



## DitmasPork (Mar 29, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> So far I’m super impressed. Kinda shocked I waited this long actually!


It's time you gave your Mazakis a well needed rest! You've inspired me to bring out my Wat tonight.


----------



## panda (Mar 29, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> So far I’m super impressed. Kinda shocked I waited this long actually!


Make sure you put fresh edge on it. It comes with a useless zero edge that will chip like crazy.


----------



## lemeneid (Mar 29, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> So far I’m super impressed. Kinda shocked I waited this long actually!


Great! Now buy a Toyama and tell us the difference


----------



## Gregmega (Mar 29, 2019)

Hahahaha yeah the Maz is on ice. Great first day in the kitchen. Much thinner st the tip than I’d heard as well. Superb initial response. Thanks all for the words of encouragement).


----------



## Xenif (Mar 30, 2019)

RDalman said:


> I only quench in cows diarrhea, and it's important to do it facing odin and screaming viking jokes. It makes the steel hard, sometimes.


superpooplisticnordicomicexplodalious honyaki, and does the resulting metal get a cool name like Cow-wee-X ?


----------



## F-Flash (Mar 30, 2019)

RDalman said:


> I only quench in cows diarrhea, and it's important to do it facing odin and screaming viking jokes. It makes the steel hard, sometimes.



I can see you do that, with your chain mail on offcourse


----------



## RDalman (Mar 30, 2019)

Grandturds norse cow-wee X haha


----------



## Sharpchef (Apr 11, 2019)

1.2442 is like butter on my grinder compared to 1.2562 ?? but still got a good edge retention. 

I have two badges of 1.2562 one is testet with 4% W the other one with 3,8%, and it feels different especially while forging by hand.

In pro business 1.2519 holds for two days as 1.2442 did, 1.2562 edge retention is much better like 4-8 days. 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Matus (Apr 11, 2019)

2 days sounds pretty short for a 1.2442 (though I do realize that such a statement is VERY relative). But - hearing that 1.2562 lasts that much longer is intriguing. Lucky me - that steel is out of stock everywhere (I have hoarded crazy amount of 1.2442 - crazy for someone ho does a few knives per year)


----------



## bryan03 (Apr 11, 2019)

steel is just a part of the equation, how it's forged, geometry , sharpening ...evry thing is important here. and sometime how it's forged and Ht is more important than the steel itself.


----------



## Sharpchef (Apr 12, 2019)

bryan03 said:


> steel is just a part of the equation, how it's forged, geometry , sharpening ...evry thing is important here. and sometime how it's forged and Ht is more important than the steel itself.


This is really the key. We made a special run of 1.2562 knifes for a german forum (Jürgen Schanz) with a kind of user friendly HT, with annealing temperatures of 180 Celcius... I made a couple of blades out of 1.2562 with less then 160 Celcius, and they keep the edge much longer but are a little brittle or better in thicker geometrys.... (and sharpen like a piece of glass  ). 

My edge retention statement is kind of valid cause i had many blades out of 1.2442 and 1.2562 by Xerxes and tested them for a very long time. Of course Jiig sharpened  ... (no comparison without makes sense).... 
And 1.2519 wiht cryo treatment can hold an edge as long as 1.2442. 

Also made some hunting knifes out of 1.2442 and in this environment they keep an edge longer then 1.2519. 

In the kitchen 1.2562 is the carbon ruler. It can keep up with steels like HAP 40, MC390, and even Vanadis 23 (the HSS steels keep an high polished edge for a little longer, and stay sharp for a very long time, but with no fancy sharpness. 

All my observations are just valid for my cutting board, my cutting style...... 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Luftmensch (Apr 12, 2019)

GorillaGrunt said:


> AS but someone is probably particularly good with it...



As @labor of love said...



labor of love said:


> Overall I think takeda and watanabe have the best retention of all carbons I’ve used...



Hard to mention AS without Takeda coming up. Never tried it. I have an older Takeda double deba in blue #1 that does have decent retention though

Edit: DOH! Way off the mark... didn't notice there were five pages. Disregard, I am sure a lot more interesting info has come up in the past four pages.


----------



## lemeneid (Apr 12, 2019)

Watanabe surely has to win the prize for edge retention. Don’t think I’ve seen any knife or steel perform quite like this long term in a pro environment with good data points.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/durability-testing-watanabe-pro-gyuto.41263/


----------



## Sharpchef (Apr 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Watanabe surely has to win the prize for edge retention. Don’t think I’ve seen any knife or steel perform quite like this long term in a pro environment with good data points.
> 
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/durability-testing-watanabe-pro-gyuto.41263/


Watanabe shure has maybe best HT for Aogami 2 steel... But this is no testing, this ist edge destruction  ..... With wrong sharpening angle.... 

And Blue 2 cannot compare to 1.2562... this is like shirogami compared too 1.3505... No chance for white`s.....

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## lemeneid (Apr 12, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> Watanabe shure has maybe best HT for Aogami 2 steel... But this is no testing, this ist edge destruction  ..... With wrong sharpening angle....
> 
> And Blue 2 cannot compare to 1.2562... this is like shirogami compared too 1.3505... No chance for white`s.....
> 
> Greets Sebastian.


Sure, 1.2562 has the best specs on paper. But that’s all it is for now, just paper specs.


----------



## Barmoley (Apr 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Sure, 1.2562 has the best specs on paper. But that’s all it is for now, just paper specs.



Why is it just paper specs if Sebastian as well as other members are saying they tested it and for them it performed the way they described.


----------



## hititlong (Apr 12, 2019)

How about Murray Carter for white steel #1 or let's say Robin Dalman for AEB-L?

Asking for views here cause I'm on the hunt for one


----------



## RDalman (Apr 12, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> ... But this is no testing, this ist edge destruction  ..... With wrong sharpening angle....



No. That is your opinion and the way you sharpen don't cut well. In my opinion. xo cheers.

Hititlong, I make with 1.2562 sometimes too


----------



## inferno (Apr 12, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> Watanabe shure has maybe best HT for Aogami 2 steel...
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



How would you know? This is such an easy steel to HT correctly/ultimately its almost impossible to get this wrong. and it basically responds in a linear way to both aus temp and temp temp. No guesswork needed here.


----------



## inferno (Apr 12, 2019)

hititlong said:


> How about Murray Carter for white steel #1 or let's say Robin Dalman for AEB-L?
> 
> Asking for views here cause I'm on the hunt for one



From what i have read AEB-L will outlast any carbon steel by a long shot. Talking edge retention. 
And from what I also have read, Dalman does the AEB-L to its max so there is probably very little extra to cram out of it. 
AEB-L is probably tougher than all 3 "White" flavors at working hardness. Since science was involved creating it.


----------



## HRC_64 (Apr 12, 2019)

inferno said:


> From what i have read AEB-L will outlast any carbon steel by a long shot. Talking edge retention.
> And from what I also have read, Dalman does the AEB-L to its max so there is probably very little extra to cram out of it.
> AEB-L is probably tougher than all 3 "White" flavors at working hardness. Since science was involved creating it.



So when you read reports about AEBL being "standout toughness" they are using its toughness tested at 59 HRC
its not very remarkable for toughness in 62++ range based on larrin's write up a couple months ago IIRC.


----------



## labor of love (Apr 12, 2019)

hititlong said:


> How about Murray Carter for white steel #1 or let's say Robin Dalman for AEB-L?
> 
> Asking for views here cause I'm on the hunt for one


Murray Wh1 isn’t winning any edge retention contests anytime soon. Unless he changed things up since the last time I used one a couple a years ago.
I still want one though.


----------



## inferno (Apr 12, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> So when you read reports about AEBL being "standout toughness" they are using its toughness tested at 59 HRC
> its not very remarkable for toughness in 62++ range based on larrin's write up a couple months ago IIRC.



No i based that stament on larrins and his fathers send in tests of samples they made on bladeforums not too long ago. and i think the aeb-l samples were their own. and those loked good. dont remember the hrcs. but hrc means about as much as the length of a car, wow 5,02 meters. 

I'm guessing even aeb-l at 59 will outlast white2 at 62-63 by a long shot. carbon steels are not very abrasion resistant compared to anything else really.


----------



## inferno (Apr 12, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Murray Wh1 isn’t winning any edge retention contests anytime soon. Unless he changed things up since the last time I used one a couple a years ago.
> I still want one though.



there is not really much you can "change up" with carbons imo.


----------



## hititlong (Apr 12, 2019)

RDalman said:


> No. That is your opinion and the way you sharpen don't cut well. In my opinion. xo cheers.
> 
> Hititlong, I make with 1.2562 sometimes too



Yeah man I cant wait till you have another one ready for sale soon. I was wondering how one would sharpen those S grinds at home tho?

So the Carter white #1s won't have edges that last long huh? Damn, still want one tho


----------



## labor of love (Apr 12, 2019)

hititlong said:


> Yeah man I cant wait till you have another one ready for sale soon. I was wondering how one would sharpen those S grinds at home tho?
> 
> So the Carter white #1s won't have edges that last long huh? Damn, still want one tho


Carter isn’t terrible


inferno said:


> there is not really much you can "change up" with carbons imo.


What I mean is, some shirogami is geared towards particular things like ease of sharpening, while others do have pretty good retention, relatively speaking.


----------



## Barmoley (Apr 12, 2019)

inferno said:


> there is not really much you can "change up" with carbons imo.


When you say carbon, are you saying non stainless? There are clearly carbon steels that have excellent edge retention that will outlast aeb-l and many other stainless. Or are you just refer to non alloyed carbons wh1,2, 1095, etc?


----------



## Sharpchef (Apr 13, 2019)

RDalman said:


> No. That is your opinion and the way you sharpen don't cut well. In my opinion. xo cheers.
> 
> Hititlong, I make with 1.2562 sometimes too




The way i sharpen cut in the same way as to low angles, but i can do it sharper this way.... And by the way it is the same way i would do it freehands.... 

But each one has his own point of view....  As long as it cut`s more then 5 tomatoes  ...

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Larrin (Apr 13, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> So when you read reports about AEBL being "standout toughness" they are using its toughness tested at 59 HRC
> its not very remarkable for toughness in 62++ range based on larrin's write up a couple months ago IIRC.


Every steel is lower in toughness at higher hardness. For the steels tested so far AEB-L is as tough or tougher than carbon steels at high hardness. White steel is unlikely to be better.


----------



## HSC /// Knives (Apr 13, 2019)

hititlong said:


> So the Carter white #1s won't have edges that last long huh? Damn, still want one tho





labor of love said:


> Carter isn’t terrible



Carter's white is easy to sharpen, so doesn't have the highest rating for edge retention but super easy to sharpen very sharp.

regards
Harbeer


----------



## hennyville (Apr 13, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> In pro business 1.2519 holds for two days as 1.2442 did, 1.2562 edge retention is much better like 4-8 days.


Very interesting. My 1.2442 monosteel heat treated by Achim Wirtz stays sharp in pro kitchen for more than 10 days. And we have really heavy prep. And my cutting technique isnt very gentle to the edge/knife . I think it is much more about sharpening technique and proper stone progression.

In your math, 1.2562 will be after more than 20 days still sharp, with proper sharpening progress of course. Wunderbar!


----------



## HRC_64 (Apr 13, 2019)

inferno said:


> I'm guessing even aeb-l at 59 will outlast white2 at 62-63 by a long shot...



Um, no...


----------



## HRC_64 (Apr 13, 2019)

Larrin said:


> Every steel is lower in toughness at higher hardness. For the steels tested so far AEB-L is as tough or tougher than carbon steels at high hardness. White steel is unlikely to be better.



AEBL is "remarkable" (ie, above average) for toughness only when it is well below max harness...ie when it is 59-60 OEM spec, where it is dramatically tougher than sybling steel 19c27. However, this is no longer the case once you apply significant incremental hardness to AEBL...the toughness drops rapidly in both absolute and relative performance terms.

here is the data:

59-60 -> 40+ toughness index (19c27 =22 index)
62+ -> 17 toughness index (equal CPM 154)
64 -> 12 toughness index (equal ELMAX)

Hypothesis to test:
CPM 154 will outperform AEBL for edge retention when they are comparably tough (seems likely)
CPM 154 wil outperform AEBL for toughness when AEBL is hard enough to be comparable for edge retention (seems likely)

AEBL is still an arguably "great" steel since just being "average" for toughness with its fine grain structure is still very compelling. I'd much rather sharpen AEBL than CPM-154, for example.


----------



## Larrin (Apr 13, 2019)

That's a good argument against using white steel as well.

Alternatively if you want to go for a thinner edge the higher hardness at comparable toughness may help prevent rolling. And as you mentioned ease in sharpening is likely better with higher hardness rather than more carbide. Different property targets for different knives/uses.


----------



## Illyria (Apr 14, 2019)

Well, now I'm interested in a 1.2562 blade.

Any on the market that won't break the bank?


----------



## lemeneid (Apr 14, 2019)

Illyria said:


> Well, now I'm interested in a 1.2562 blade.
> 
> Any on the market that won't break the bank?


Yup, looking for this as well!


----------



## thebradleycrew (Apr 14, 2019)

hititlong said:


> Yeah man I cant wait till you have another one ready for sale soon. I was wondering how one would sharpen those S grinds at home tho?
> 
> So the Carter white #1s won't have edges that last long huh? Damn, still want one tho



Labor - you are right, Murray's knives are not the edge holding masters; Murray intentionally makes them that way. His premise is that sharpness and ease of maintainability (which includes sharpenability) are the most important qualities in a blade. Meaning, they get razor sharp and then are easily brought back to that point. I can say that my own experience with his knives (I've owned five) is just that. They feel incredible on the stones and are really, really easy to maintain. I can't say that for all the steels in my collection. It's never a long process to touch up a Carter and get it sharp again.


----------



## Matus (Apr 14, 2019)

I have zero complaints about my white#1 Carter. Feels great on stones and edge retention is pretty much what I would expect from a white steel with a good ht.


----------



## Geigs (Apr 15, 2019)

I have limited experince compared to many here but Takeda AS holds an edge for ages in home use. I just picked up a Tim Johnson AEB-L so can't comment on this beyond a couple months but so far so good.


----------



## Sharpchef (Apr 15, 2019)

hennyville said:


> Very interesting. My 1.2442 monosteel heat treated by Achim Wirtz stays sharp in pro kitchen for more than 10 days. And we have really heavy prep. And my cutting technique isnt very gentle to the edge/knife . I think it is much more about sharpening technique and proper stone progression.
> 
> In your math, 1.2562 will be after more than 20 days still sharp, with proper sharpening progress of course. Wunderbar!



We are talking about another level of sharpness...... i guess  ... Who many meals you have to prep... ? 10 Days with good tomato slicing sharpness is hard even with modern HSS steels !  

Do you sharpen like Achim is doing it ? (with old 400 grit belt on a benchgrinder ) ? 

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Larrin (Apr 15, 2019)

It would certainly be nice if these tungsten steels were more available for bladesmiths outside of Japan. And the V-Toku and Blue series steels top out around 2% tungsten. Same with the German steels like 1.2519. In tool steels and stainless steels we have the whole range of wear resistance from very low to crazy high, while simple forging steels are mostly on the low end of the spectrum.


----------



## XooMG (Apr 15, 2019)

I had a Chinese cleaver in skh-4, and another briefly in hap-72. I cut a carrot with them and didn't notice significant dulling after that. I sharpen after each ingredient though so it's not really a big deal.


----------



## Sharpchef (Apr 15, 2019)

XooMG said:


> I had a Chinese cleaver in skh-4, and another briefly in hap-72. I cut a carrot with them and didn't notice significant dulling after that. I sharpen after each ingredient though so it's not really a big deal.



What a clever man! 

Greets Sebastian


----------



## Sharpchef (Apr 15, 2019)

Larrin said:


> It would certainly be nice if these tungsten steels were more available for bladesmiths outside of Japan. And the V-Toku and Blue series steels top out around 2% tungsten. Same with the German steels like 1.2519. In tool steels and stainless steels we have the whole range of wear resistance from very low to crazy high, while simple forging steels are mostly on the low end of the spectrum.



I think at least 1.2519 is a no brainer to get, 1.2442 is not cheap but also common...1.2562 is not to get right now (i got enough in stock at least for me ), but you can get it in stainless steel cladding from Balbach ("just" 438€ per m) In europe we can also get aogami and aogami super but for prices we don`t like to discuss... Even HAP 40 would be no problem as long we import at least 100kg.

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Gregmega (Nov 5, 2019)

Quick revisit and thanks for all the contributions. 

Watanabe, Raquin, and Evan have been leading the pack with honorable mention from Maz nash & Marko. I need to take the Kochi v2 back in for a brutal weekend and see where he sits. There’s probs 5 others I’m missing but against these steels/makers and facing down these demanding environs, the choice has been pretty clear. 

Now- hit me with alloys. Was thinking about stepping into sld and the like for a toe dip. Brooksie said the masashi was fun but weird. What else ya got?


----------



## lemeneid (Nov 5, 2019)

I'm still trying to find a 1.2562 blade. Who makes these?


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 5, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> I'm still trying to find a 1.2562 blade. Who makes these?


Ditto


----------



## Nikabrik (Nov 5, 2019)

Robin Dalman previously has.
Xerxes
Johannes Adams
Marius Smide


----------



## tgfencer (Nov 5, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Ditto



I'm fairly certain my wrought clad gyuto from Robin is 1.2562, but I'm not 100%. Edge retention is really superb.


----------



## Eloh (Nov 5, 2019)

Marco Guldimann has done blades in 1.2562, too. But they are one the more expensive side 
eg https://www.instagram.com/p/BXC_pvwFso_/?igshid=ttcdt6ch5r7g
Also Tobi from Metalmonkey


----------



## Barmoley (Nov 5, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> I'm still trying to find a 1.2562 blade. Who makes these?


Dalman, Xerxes, Marius Smide made a few, but he didn't have any 1.2562 last time I asked him. At some point all of it was bought, not sure if they made more steel and when it will be available. It actually seems somewhat close to aogami super, has a bit more tungsten but other than that very similar from chemical composition stand point.


----------



## Eloh (Nov 5, 2019)

The thing is AS often gets treated fairly conservatively, Sukenari and TF are the only ones - i know of - who actually use the full potential.


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 5, 2019)

I read Salty saying his FRKZ (Sukenari?) AS gets used frequently since it consistently felt sharp and had a good balance of other characteristics.

For me, been happy with TF denka, Xerxes primus, Asia hayabusa, mixed results with Ikeda Wh3 honyaki (I think it's my poor Sharpening). Mazaki wh2 doing better than I expected.

Ryusen HAP40 sharpens way easier than I expected, if we're opening the "SS that feels like carbon" door.


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 5, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Dalman, Xerxes, Marius Smide made a few, but he didn't have any 1.2562 last time I asked him. At some point all of it was bought, not sure if they made more steel and when it will be available. It actually seems somewhat close to aogami super, has a bit more tungsten but other than that very similar from chemical composition stand point.


Where do y’all find these crazy custom makers?


----------



## suntravel (Nov 5, 2019)

You must look at steel and HT combined, best steel with crapy ht is just crap 

Best edgeretention for kitchenknives i got so far from Vanadis 23 and K390. S290 also hold an extrem sharpness very long, but for my taste not tough enough.

Regards

Uwe


----------



## RDalman (Nov 5, 2019)

I got some stock of the thick 1.2562 left. Setting up my forging room right now, once everything in place I will be using it for cores


----------



## Gregmega (Nov 5, 2019)

An early comment was on Togashi honyaki in w2. Been way down with honyaki lately. 

Any thoughts on honyaki vs other standard constructions?


----------



## lemeneid (Nov 5, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> An early comment was on Togashi honyaki in w2. Been way down with honyaki lately.
> 
> Any thoughts on honyaki vs other standard constructions?


I’ve been wanting to know this for a while now too. Eg. is there any difference between a Wat/Toyama honyaki vs the regular sanmai blade.


----------



## suntravel (Nov 5, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Any thoughts on honyaki vs other standard constructions?



Yes, a soft spine will not make the egde harder 

It is on kitchenknives only for show an works only on low alloy steels with not the best edgeretention possible.

Regards

Uwe


----------



## RDalman (Nov 5, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> I'm fairly certain my wrought clad gyuto from Robin is 1.2562, but I'm not 100%. Edge retention is really superb.


Be 100% with good conscience it's the only I've used with wrought iron for gyutos so far


----------



## tgfencer (Nov 5, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Be 100% with good conscience it's the only I've used with wrought iron for gyutos so far



Good to know the memory is still working. Now I just need to convince you to make me a similar one with a less reactive cladding. I've never handled any of your standard s-grind knives, but this workhorse grind is a performer.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Nov 5, 2019)

suntravel said:


> Yes, a soft spine will not make the egde harder
> 
> It is on kitchenknives only for show an works only on low alloy steels with not the best edgeretention possible.
> 
> ...



Perhaps many Honyaki are for show I used one at work it got a real workout nice hunk of steel with good edge retention on plastic boards. 

Bought a Sigratin Honyaki with burnt chestnut handle never used on BST years ago. Great knife sold it to Banquet Chef friend who for years has plowed through all kinds of prep with that blade.

There are pro cooks here that have used Honyaki knives. They work well doing tons of prep. High polish fancy handle Honyaki may sit in a drawer. Some are made to use.


----------



## Eloh (Nov 5, 2019)

I think the argument is that the differential heat treatment doesn't give any advantage compared to a mono steel blade with same steel/ ht.
For edge retention the only thing that's relevant is the steel at the edge.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 5, 2019)

Eloh said:


> I think the argument is that the differential heat treatment doesn't give any advantage compared to a mono steel blade with same steel/ ht.
> For edge retention the only thing that's relevant is the steel at the edge.


Or another way of interpreting this is to say does Togashi San mai have retention on par with his honyaki. 
Which seems to be the case for Jmakers. Pretty unlikely any of them are using identical methods for San mai, honyaki and mono non honyaki.


----------



## Jmcc (Nov 6, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Or another way of interpreting this is to say does Togashi San mai have retention on par with his honyaki.
> Which seems to be the case for Jmakers. Pretty unlikely any of them are using identical methods for San mai, honyaki and mono non honyaki.


If the core steel was the same as their mono steel or honyaki then they would use the same HT.


----------



## Eloh (Nov 6, 2019)

For what it's worth if edge retention is of any concern I would personally avoid dumping money into shirogami knives and rather look at some of the following

Xerxes 1.2562/1.2442
Catchside 1.2442
Dalman 1.2562
Guldimann 1.2562/his proprietary steel

These will be far beyond the best possible heat treated shirogami knives



Edit: Also give the sukenari hap 40 a try. It's easier to sharpen than I expected...


----------



## ashy2classy (Nov 6, 2019)

I'm sure it's been said many times....

TF DENKAAAAAAAA!


----------



## Alder26 (Nov 6, 2019)

yoshikane white #2 or SKD-11 are heavy hitters and really cheap for what they are.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 6, 2019)

Jmcc said:


> If the core steel was the same as their mono steel or honyaki then they would use the same HT.


So what your saying is ashi Hamono heat treat is the same for his mono wh2 line as his honyaki?


----------



## suntravel (Nov 6, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Perhaps many Honyaki are for show



What i meant was that the Hamon and differential hardenig is for show, of course a well made Honyaki can be a good Pro tool also.

But there is no practical benefit for kitchenknives because if i make knives i get the same quality on the edge with full hardening, Hardenening with clay and polishing the Hamon needs a few hours more work only to make them look better.

No one should use a kitchen knife for prying or parry a knife atacque, like with outdoor or fighting knives 

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Jmcc (Nov 6, 2019)

labor of love said:


> So what your saying is ashi Hamono heat treat is the same for his mono wh2 line as his honyaki?


Sorry I misread your first post
I agree if a maker is tempering for different HRC numbers for different knives he wouldn't be following the exact same HT


----------



## Gregmega (Nov 6, 2019)

Does anyone know the answer to this query? Lest we suffer through more endless speculation, can anyone definitively answer- Does honyaki have better retention in real world situ, why is the hrc higher than a mono? Where’s HRC68 when you need him- so many questions.


----------



## Barmoley (Nov 6, 2019)

labor of love said:


> So what your saying is ashi Hamono heat treat is the same for his mono wh2 line as his honyaki?


I think that Japanese makers usually harden honyaki harder at the edge. Except Toyama since core on his San Mai seems to be as hard as honyaki. Western makers make San Mai and mono blades as hard or harder than honyaki often. So it is a choice not necessarily a construction limitation. The main point is that differential heat treatment is pretty useless as far as performance is concerned in kitchen knives. Another point is that if edge retention is your goal, white class steels are not what you would pick no matter the heat treat. Heat treat will not make one steel into another. If edge retention is your goal picking a different steel is what you need to do. This assumes optimal heat treat for any of the chosen steels. That has to be a given otherwise the discussion about steel differences is pointless.


----------



## Eloh (Nov 6, 2019)

.. What barmoley said


@Greg there really is no speculation. It just happens that most Japanese makers usually treat their san Mai blades softer than they could, for various reasons


----------



## DevinT (Nov 6, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I think that Japanese makers usually harden honyaki harder at the edge. Except Toyama since core on his San Mai seems to be as hard as honyaki. Western makers make San Mai and mono blades as hard or harder than honyaki often. So it is a choice not necessarily a construction limitation. The main point is that differential heat treatment is pretty useless as far as performance is concerned in kitchen knives. Another point is that if edge retention is your goal, white class steels are not what you would pick no matter the heat treat. Heat treat will not make one steel into another. If edge retention is your goal picking a different steel is what you need to do. This assumes optimal heat treat for any of the chosen steels. That has to be a given otherwise the discussion about steel differences is pointless.



Bam!!


----------



## thebradleycrew (Nov 6, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> Good to know the memory is still working. Now I just need to convince you to make me a similar one with a less reactive cladding. I've never handled any of your standard s-grind knives, but this workhorse grind is a performer.


Tell you what @tgfencer - you sell me your reactive iron clad workhorse - sounds right up my alley!!!


----------



## suntravel (Nov 6, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Does honyaki have better retention in real world situ, why is the hrc higher than a mono?



This is not the case on my knives and there is no practical reason to temper Honyakis to higher HRC. Maybe with some makers marketing stuff to make mono with higher tempering softer so the high Honyaki pricetag seems to have some more reason 

Regards

Uwe


----------



## suntravel (Nov 6, 2019)

Eloh said:


> It just happens that most Japanese makers usually treat their san Mai blades softer than they could, for various reasons



One drawback with San Mai is the carbon diffusion unless you use a thin nickel layer between the core an soft outer layer, but this is seldom used in Japan, more from good western blacksmiths 

So with straight San Mai you will loose some carbon in the core, the more the longer the blade was on high temp, wich looses some hardebillity on the steel...

Regards

Uwe


----------



## Gregmega (Nov 6, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I think that Japanese makers usually harden honyaki harder at the edge. Except Toyama since core on his San Mai seems to be as hard as honyaki. Western makers make San Mai and mono blades as hard or harder than honyaki often. So it is a choice not necessarily a construction limitation. The main point is that differential heat treatment is pretty useless as far as performance is concerned in kitchen knives. Another point is that if edge retention is your goal, white class steels are not what you would pick no matter the heat treat. Heat treat will not make one steel into another. If edge retention is your goal picking a different steel is what you need to do. This assumes optimal heat treat for any of the chosen steels. That has to be a given otherwise the discussion about steel differences is pointless.



Boom.


----------



## RDalman (Nov 6, 2019)

suntravel said:


> One drawback with San Mai is the carbon diffusion unless you use a thin nickel layer between the core an soft outer layer, but this is seldom used in Japan, more from good western blacksmiths
> 
> So with straight San Mai you will loose some carbon in the core, the more the longer the blade was on high temp, wich looses some hardebillity on the steel...
> 
> ...



Honyaki offers (some) straightenability, the soft spine and hamon have practical purpose in that sense. I see alot more carbon diffusion on western makers work in general, if we're going to be generalising... Nickel does hardly seem to retard this diffusion I actually think. You often see it happened through it. The japanese (if we're generalising) have a much better forging metallurgy traditionally keeping their forging fast and efficient, and low temps after the forgeweld.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 6, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I think that Japanese makers usually harden honyaki harder at the edge. Except Toyama since core on his San Mai seems to be as hard as honyaki. Western makers make San Mai and mono blades as hard or harder than honyaki often. So it is a choice not necessarily a construction limitation. The main point is that differential heat treatment is pretty useless as far as performance is concerned in kitchen knives. Another point is that if edge retention is your goal, white class steels are not what you would pick no matter the heat treat. Heat treat will not make one steel into another. If edge retention is your goal picking a different steel is what you need to do. This assumes optimal heat treat for any of the chosen steels. That has to be a given otherwise the discussion about steel differences is pointless.


Yes of course. Which was my point. If we set aside hypotheticals for second...Comparing Honyaki made in Japan to mono made in Japan there is much difference. 
The rest of world does whatever.


----------



## suntravel (Nov 6, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Honyaki offers (some) straightenability, the soft spine and hamon have practical purpose in that sense.



so they should be cheaper ?



RDalman said:


> Nickel does hardly seem to retard this diffusion I actually think.



https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e943/674d4037a198f761694233e101f167f24f8b.pdf



RDalman said:


> The japanese (if we're generalising) have a much better forging metallurgy traditionally keeping their forging fast and efficient, and low temps after the forgeweld.



I have never seen in japanese forging videos they forge a blade in one heat, but have seen this from a german maker and a swiss one ist also fast in forging with a very high degree of transformation per heat and adjusting his forging with metallurgy testing 

Regards 

Uwe


----------



## labor of love (Nov 6, 2019)

Btw just to answer the question from my own personal experience, I’ve used both shiraki honyaki and shiraki blue 2 San mai. Honyaki does have better retention and takes a little longer to sharpen.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Nov 6, 2019)

Yes the two working Honyaki used at work the hamon was not seen. Saw one polished up in vid. it was high around kanji area.

Can't explain why but honyaki's feel more dense than mono steel carbons. Most are harder than white & blue carbons so have better edge retention.

Have also read that Honyaki are harder to sharpen. My experience they are easy to get extremely sharp.


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 6, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> This assumes optimal heat treat for any of the chosen steels. That has to be a given otherwise the discussion about steel differences is pointless.


This makes a lot of sense to me.

Deleted dumb redundant stuff


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 6, 2019)

DevinT said:


> Bam!!


I was lucky enough to get my first knife from a local American maker whose work I've admired for the past three years. He described his heat treat of 52100 as a "spring temper". I'd love to know a little bit more about that term and how it relates to the differential heat treat topic.


----------



## lemeneid (Nov 7, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Does anyone know the answer to this query? Lest we suffer through more endless speculation, can anyone definitively answer- Does honyaki have better retention in real world situ, why is the hrc higher than a mono? Where’s HRC68 when you need him- so many questions.


Yeah, I was under the impression the processes for making honyaki, san mai and mono were different, even if you treat them to the same HRC wouldn't the end result be slightly different?
I'd imagine its like cooking a steak to medium rare for example. You can pan sear, reverse sear, sous vide, barbecue, etc.. but the results for each would be different although the doneness is the same.


----------



## Eloh (Nov 7, 2019)

... Only if they are forged at full moon


----------



## Garm (Nov 7, 2019)

I have next to no knowledge on the subject, and have never used a Honyaki blade, but from what I've seen online there seem to be some differences between honyaki blades in a western design(i.e. gyuto) that are designed to take more of beating and traditional Japanese blades like Yanagibas.
I remember a video that has been circulated here where they analysed a Tatsuo Ikeda honyaki yanagiba, that showed a hardness of about 68 HRC after tempering. I've never heard or seen a honyaki gyuto reaching those numbers, but I may of course be very mistaken. I'm guessing the differences in characteristics like edge retention and sharpeneability are quite a bit more dramatic in a honyaki yanagiba like this using simple carbon steels compared to more standard hardnesses for that blade design, than when you compare a honyaki gyuto to a "standard" gyuto.


----------



## DevinT (Nov 7, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I was lucky enough to get my first knife from a local American maker whose work I've admired for the past three years. He described his heat treat of 52100 as a "spring temper". I'd love to know a little bit more about that term and how it relates to the differential heat treat topic.


It usually means that it’s a little softer, the maker may mean something a little different though. 

Hoss


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Nov 7, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Yes the two working Honyaki used at work the hamon was not seen. Saw one polished up in vid. it was high around kanji area.
> 
> Can't explain why but honyaki's feel more dense than mono steel carbons. Most are harder than white & blue carbons so have better edge retention.
> 
> Have also read that Honyaki are harder to sharpen. My experience they are easy to get extremely sharp.


I have both honyaki (W2 not Shirogami 2) and sanmai knives and don't think the honyaki are any harder to sharpen. Honyaki does 'feel' harder or denser, but the same can be said for my Kato's. Having seen Kiyoshi Kato vids on YT I think much of that honyaki feel is down to the extra carbon imparted into the blade during the final steps in his smithing process. I've not seen any other makers doing this with kitchen knives and I believe it does make a difference especially in the thinner exposed core steel.


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 7, 2019)

DevinT said:


> It usually means that it’s a little softer, the maker may mean something a little different though.
> 
> Hoss


Thanks Hoss. To clarify, is that a softer spine, or softer overall? I realize my question wasn't well-phrased.


----------



## DevinT (Nov 7, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Thanks Hoss. To clarify, is that a softer spine, or softer overall? I realize my question wasn't well-phrased.


It’s best to ask the maker, could be just the spine. 
Hoss


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 8, 2019)

DevinT said:


> It’s best to ask the maker, could be just the spine.
> Hoss


True enough. I'm trying to avoid bugging him, he seems quite busy.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 8, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> True enough. I'm trying to avoid bugging him, he seems quite busy.


What’s his name? God put me on this earth to harass all vendors and custom makers. I can do it for you.


----------



## M1k3 (Nov 8, 2019)

labor of love said:


> What’s his name? God put me on this earth to harass all vendors and custom makers. I can do it for you.



That's why you're left handed


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 8, 2019)

And color blind


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 8, 2019)

labor of love said:


> What’s his name? God put me on this earth to harass all vendors and custom makers. I can do it for you.


Seriously thank you, but I’m going to let it be for the moment.


----------



## M1k3 (Nov 8, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> And color blind



Does he have an extra toe? Finger? Nipple?


----------



## captaincaed (Nov 8, 2019)

Ask his girlfriend


----------



## labor of love (Nov 8, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Ask his girlfriend


@CiderBear


----------



## CiderBear (Nov 8, 2019)

Nani??


----------



## labor of love (Nov 8, 2019)

Haha


----------



## bahamaroot (Nov 8, 2019)

labor of love said:


> What’s his name? God put me on this earth to harass all vendors and custom makers. I can do it for you.


And you do it well!


----------

