# Sharpening Request - AEBL



## captaincaed (Jul 3, 2018)

Hey all,
I've got an AEBL gyuto that I'm having a devil of a time getting sharpened. I've had good luck for the past several years, can get everything from a stainless MAC to a Mizuno blue shaving sharp and push-cutting magazine paper sharp. For some reason, I can't get the AEBL above 1k grit. When I put it on the 4k stone, it just seems to lose the edge. I can get it to bite my nail, just doesn't want to cut anything. Even dents citrus skin, which normally isn't that challenging to cut. What am I missing?


----------



## HRC_64 (Jul 3, 2018)

Typically two explanations come to mind...

1) Either crushing/folding he edge once its clean;
2) A wire/burr remnant that is preventing a clean edge formation.

How hard is your knife (if known?) or who is the maker?
(edit: Also, what stones?)


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 3, 2018)

Thank you for the reply.
I'm hesitant to name a maker, at least not right away. Let's just say an American maker with a good reputation. Something Salty would buy and use.

I'm using the Togiharu 1000/4000 from this shop (https://www.seattleknifesharpening.com/stones/). I've had good luck with it over the past couple years. Been using this same stone to achieve the results described above. I will occasionally use a natural nagura to create slurry, but I like to start without it. I did not use it in this case.

I'm using the Jon Broida microbevel/horizontal slide technique to remove burr. Also tried using the edge of my maple board. Between attempts, I'll go back to the 1000 side, reset the bevel, make sure I have an even burr along the length of the blade (on both sides) before going back down to the finer 4000 side ( to make sure I'm actually sharpening the edge, not the secondary bevel above the microbevel). 

I've also tried mixing it up with some Arkansas stones that I have good luck with for polishing some edges, but in this case that was also a bust.

Hope this explanation sheds some light!


----------



## Bensbites (Jul 3, 2018)

I have a couple AEBL knives that are a house brand that shall not be mentioned on this forum. My understanding is that these were heat treated at peters and take a great edge. I can sharpen and deburr on a 1k. Then I can go to an Aizu or 4 k edge no problem.


----------



## labor of love (Jul 3, 2018)

Personally I’ve found AEBL takes longer to sharpen than a lot of other premium stainless steels. If it’s well heat treated it can feel great during sharpening but it does seem to take some time to raise a burr. Is your knife very thin behind the edge? If it’s not you may want to thin it some. A thinner edge will sharpen quicker because youre moving less steel. 
If that isn’t the case just stay on that 1k until the edge is sharp.


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 3, 2018)

I think I know the knives of which you do not speak. This knife is from is a small, independent maker.


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 3, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Personally I’ve found AEBL takes longer to sharpen than a lot of other premium stainless steels. If it’s well heat treated it can feel great during sharpening but it does seem to take some time to raise a burr. Is your knife very thin behind the edge? If it’s not you may want to thin it some. A thinner edge will sharpen quicker because youre moving less steel.
> If that isn’t the case just stay on that 1k until the edge is sharp.



It's not terribly thin behind the edge, but the damascus cladding makes me apprehensive about thinning. Not something I've done before. 

I've had luck getting the thing sharp (setting the bevel) on 1k. It'll pull cut a magazine, tomatoes, you name it. Works just like a knife should, just a bit coarse. Once I go to a 4k, I actually loose cutting capabilities, and that's where the mystery is for me currently. When I use this progression with almost any other knife and steel, I have good luck refining edge and having a keen knife.


----------



## labor of love (Jul 3, 2018)

You actually lose cutting ability after sharpening on the 4k? And this doesn’t happen with other knives? I dunno man. Good luck.


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 3, 2018)

I'll make a short video, maybe it'll spark an idea...


----------



## JBroida (Jul 3, 2018)

unless the knife is extremely thin and/or extremely hard, i'm not sure the microbevel makes sense... why not try some swipes across the back of a non-scratch sponge inbetween stones


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 3, 2018)

OK, that is helpful to know, thank you. I think I was doing it partly out of habit and partly because it seemed like a reliable way to de-burr. I do remember the sponge trick now, I'll give that a go and post the results.


----------



## McMan (Jul 3, 2018)

Hypothesis to test: 
Wire edge at 1000, partially removed by 4000--Hence the decline in performance?


----------



## labor of love (Jul 3, 2018)

McMan said:


> Hypothesis to test:
> Wire edge at 1000, partially removed by 4000--Hence the decline in performance?


If this occurred only once from sharpening maybe, but if this is a regular occurrence I wouldn’t think something like that would consistently happen. Atleast without the edge(or wire edge) getting somewhat sharper on the 4k stone before being partially removed.
I like Jon’s advice. Plus do your best to sharpen with a consistent angle, stop more often than you normally might and press the edge with your finger to feel for progress. Maybe use more pressure, and more time on the 4k stone.


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 5, 2018)

Edit:
Checked with supplier, blade was listed as AEBL, is actually AEBL/304 damascus through and through, not an AEBL core.

OK, I'll give this a go. It's currently in the hands of a professional sharpener, being thinned and getting his assessment on the edge. Never hurts to have someone put hands on it. I was having some mixed success after another attempt.
I neglected to mention it's also likely a through and through stainless damascus blade, and I cannot find any records for what the second steel is. I'm so accustomed to these being clad knives that it completely slipped my mind until I looked at it more carefully.


----------



## Benuser (Jul 6, 2018)

McMan said:


> Hypothesis to test:
> Wire edge at 1000, partially removed by 4000--Hence the decline in performance?


+1
Fatigued steel may be a part of the problem. As you have no coarser stone, make sure to raise a very clear burr with the 1k. Don't be afraid to abrade a bit of steel. 
End on the 1k with stropping (=edge trailing strokes) until you don't reduce the burr any further and it only flips sides. Very light deburring by longitudinal strokes. Don't expect it to fully remove the burr yet.
I would try to limit work on the 4k to stropping and deburring. No full sharpening.


----------



## PappaG (Jul 6, 2018)

Would I be way off in suggesting a courser stone? As I sit back and read on this forum, I often see the suggestion of spending more time on courser stones before moving up... just a thought.


----------



## Benuser (Jul 6, 2018)

A medium-coarse stone, say JIS 400, can be very useful to start with when working on some steels. Just a few strokes to raise a burr in case of a well-maintained knife. I wouldn't stay any longer with it, and strop and deburr with the next stone. Perhaps some split leather or cardboard stropping in between to clean up the edge and weaken the burr. 
But AEB-L is not amongst those who will benefit a lot from the medium-coarse one, IMHO. 
Of course, for thinning a coarse stone is needed.


----------



## Jville (Jul 6, 2018)

Perhaps, you end up rounding the edge, while trying to debur and puting a micro bevel on. Maybe the 1k bevel is very small and not as devoloped as some of your others. Although the wire edge seemed a great possibility.


----------



## guitarmanchu (Jul 6, 2018)

This is EXACTLY the same problem I'm having with my AEBL knives. Glad to hear I'm not the only one perplexed by this.


----------



## HRC_64 (Jul 6, 2018)

PappaG said:


> Would I be way off in suggesting a courser stone? As I sit back and read on this forum, I often see the suggestion of spending more time on courser stones before moving up... just a thought.



Although keep in mind....
AEBL has (order of magnitude) ~1 micron carbides,
so ultimately it should be able to take a 4-6k polish.


----------



## K813zra (Jul 6, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Although keep in mind....
> AEBL has (order of magnitude) ~1 micron carbides,
> so ultimately it should be able to take a 4-6k polish.



I find AEBL to take a 6-8k edge fine, holding the polish for a relevant amount of time is a different story. But I've nothing special in that steel so that might play a big role in how I feel. I prefer stick to the lower end of your listed range.  But then, I prefer that in general too--lol.


----------



## HRC_64 (Jul 6, 2018)

K813zra said:


> I find AEBL to take a 6-8k edge fine, holding the polish for a relevant amount of time is a different story. But I've nothing special in that steel so that might play a big role in how I feel. I prefer stick to the lower end of your listed range.  But then, I prefer that in general too--lol.



Fair enough, just pointing out that AEBL is not the kind "generic" stainless 
with 45 micron carbides and therefore no use going above #400 grit.


----------



## K813zra (Jul 6, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Fair enough, just pointing out that AEBL is not the kind "generic" stainless
> with 45 micron carbides and therefore no use going above #400 grit.


For sure.


----------



## KJDedge (Jul 7, 2018)

Why not just stay at the 1k level...probably gives a good performing
Edge for kitchen work?


----------



## Benuser (Jul 7, 2018)

Don't expect to get all of the burr removed at 1k. That's why I suggested to use the 4k only for that, by stropping and deburring.


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 7, 2018)

How about stropping on leather with/without compound? I know that strops aren't necessarily favorites around here, but couldn't it help in this case?


----------



## Benuser (Jul 7, 2018)

It won't abrade the burr, I'm afraid, just flip it. And if the burr were to fall off, expect it to leave a damaged edge behind. To a lesser degree with finely grained steel like AEB-L, but still.


----------



## Benuser (Jul 7, 2018)

In fact, stropping on leather can be useful, but not in correcting what goes wrong when stone sharpening. First find out why you don't get the expected result on stones before adding other techniques and parameters.


----------



## rick alen (Jul 7, 2018)

One thing I realized just recently is that with my clay-binder stone I have to rinse away the mud before stopping, essentially have a clean stone for stropping, or I pull a wire.

I had always rinsed before stropping for purely unconscious reasons, but left the stone muddy for the strop the other day, and it took me some contemplation to figure why I was suddenly pulling a wire.


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 9, 2018)

rick alen said:


> One thing I realized just recently is that with my clay-binder stone I have to rinse away the mud before stopping, essentially have a clean stone for stropping, or I pull a wire.
> 
> I had always rinsed before stropping for purely unconscious reasons, but left the stone muddy for the strop the other day, and it took me some contemplation to figure why I was suddenly pulling a wire.


OK now this is an interesting subtlety I haven't heard yet. I'm going to have some fun sharpening this knife up, I think. It's going to teach me a few things.


----------



## RDalman (Jul 9, 2018)

Just noticed none have filled in, might be good to know... The 304 doesnt harden, so if it's mixed there on the edge...


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 9, 2018)

RDalman said:


> Just noticed none have filled in, might be good to know... The 304 doesnt harden, so if it's mixed there on the edge...


Thank you for this info, I was hoping a maker might have an insight.


----------



## masibu (Jul 17, 2018)

rick alen said:


> One thing I realized just recently is that with my clay-binder stone I have to rinse away the mud before stopping, essentially have a clean stone for stropping, or I pull a wire.
> 
> I had always rinsed before stropping for purely unconscious reasons, but left the stone muddy for the strop the other day, and it took me some contemplation to figure why I was suddenly pulling a wire.



This is something that I have also picked up on as I try to continue gaining more consistent results. I lap and clean off all the slurry when I'm about to start honing. A little bit isnt so bad most of the time but if somethings giving me the shits I like to ensure that its not just a problem with how im using the stone. I havent had much luck getting good results honing with slurry although people can do otherwise.


----------



## galvaude (Jul 27, 2018)

Start over with a coarse stone like 400 or under, get a fresh new bevel on it then proceed to 1k and finishing stone.

I have a Richmond Artifex made of AEB-L takes a really nice edge and it is one of the easiest knife I ever sharpened.


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 28, 2018)

It came back with a great edge that push cuts a magazine edge or a rolled magazine sheet _after _banging it through a few potatoes. So, it looks like it will indeed take a great edge, and it's up to me to do some learning. He also thinned it somewhat behind the edge, which improved its overall cutting ability very pleasantly.


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 28, 2018)

Sorry, double posted.


----------

