# Sexual Harassment in the Kitchen/Restaurant world



## Bill13

I think we all knew this was bound to happen, still sad to see it go down on many levels. I'm sure he will not be the only chef to be stepping down in the next few months.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...d-sexual-harassment-by-multiple-women-1066116


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## StonedEdge

Kitchens can be like locker rooms sometimes in that it's a team atmosphere and everyone usually tries to stay loose and have fun...I've seen some actions between kitchen staff that in any other industry would be regarded as inappropriate but in the kitchen it's just another immature joke which nobody seems to mind.

I don't want to detract from the legitimacy of the claim vs Batali but I wouldn't be surprised if it was something taken out of context.

Note..ive never seen so much ass slapping and derogatory name-calling (in the most loving sense, among and between both men and women) than the few times I've helped friends out at their restaurants. In high pressure environments people do whatever to stay loose.

Batali does come off a little bit creepy tho


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## fatboylim

No excuses if there are REPEATED issues. But, he must remain innocent until proven guilty. 

I get that we can make mistakes from time to time, we are human. But mistakes mean that the person was in the wrong. Worse still repeated mistakes is bad behaviour and wrong in many more ways; including intent which makes a mistake become malicious. 

He shall remain innocent until proven guilty. Without real information, we cannot judge.


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## chinacats

Never really cared too much about Batali due to his personality. That said, I've always respected the food he did. Will say that the apology as quoted in the article was probably one of the better one's yet.


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## Bill13

Yea china I thought it was a good apology, especially compared to Franken's - which was a mess. I am a bit worried that we are going overboard with the guilty until proven innocent mentality, although so far it seems to be balanced against the number of people coming forward. I always had the impression he was a "real" chef albeit a celebrity chef at the same time.


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## Jacob_x

I hope that I'm right in saying that this isn't an industry affected by sexual abuse and misconduct over and above any other. That said, it's important to recognise ways in which the restaurant industry (and any industry for that matter) specifically legitimises such behaviour. Certainly in old school kitchens (but not exclusively), where the intensity, pressure, aggression etc is extremely high, there exists a strong hierarchy. Chefs, who happen to be predominantly male, are seniors in stature and command a certain power, or so they like to think, over lower chefs and front of house. I wouldn't be surprised if this perceived dominance results in cases of sexual abuse, not at all. In addition to this ours is an industry with high levels of alcoholism and drug use, which can exacerbate the above, and is a serious problem in its own right.


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## JDA_NC

It's definitely a very sensitive issue right now... Batali is screwed because he's a Chef/restaurateur & a TV personality - two industries going through upheaval because of sexual harassment.

A lot of this sort of behavior is kind of openly known within the restaurant industry. Batali is old-school and a lot has basically been openly written about hard-partying ways. Bill Buford's "Heat" paints a pretty clear picture that Mario like(d) to drink and party a lot. Hell, he even had a falling out with Marco Pierre White in London pre-Harveys -- dumping salt in all the sauces before walking out right before service -- and it was implied that it was because he was doing too much cocaine and partying. 

John Besh is another example. He is widely known for being a grade A a-hole and a bit of a pig. I personally know women who have worked events with him & his team and got solicited to "go back to the hotel" - so it's not surprising he got the axe but this sort of behavior has been common in these environments for a long time.

So mixed feelings. The behavior definitely shouldn't be encouraged and I think kitchen environments are generally very different than they were back in the day - but there is a bit of a witch hunt going on right now. I worked for a Chef that is very talented, young, and all around not a bad guy - and he recently became a sacrificial lamb so to speak for a large, well known restaurant group because he didn't take direct action about sexual misconduct and was also on his way out from the company... I'm not saying he is or was a saint, but I also don't think it was right for the restaurant group (which he's done a whole lot for) to make him the fall guy and drag his name through the mud in order to make themselves look good.


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## HRC_64

Hollywood sleaze vs kitchen sleaze is not even in the same league, IMHO. 
Incomprehensibly worse **** happens in hollywood.

its a simple fact of life you can corrupt people, with
$$ millions alot easier than you can @ $20/hr.

Where Batali ranks on this god only knows.


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## TheCaptain

HRC_64 said:


> Hollywood sleaze vs kitchen sleaze is not even in the same league, IMHO.
> Incomprehensibly worse **** happens in hollywood.
> 
> its a simple fact of life you can corrupt people, with
> $$ millions alot easier than you can @ $20/hr.
> 
> Where Batali ranks on this god only knows.



As someone on the receiving end, NO - just no. It doesn't matter if you're going for a job that pays minimum wage (as mine did plus commissions) or for a high paying job. Being treated differently, or sexually objectified, simply because you're a woman is ****** no matter where it happens.

Which is why my friends, we have so much of this stuff still happening. Most still don't get it.

And I'm not sure so much that's it's the money that corrupts, as it is whenever someone gets in a position of power.


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## ThEoRy

fatboylim said:


> No excuses if there are REPEATED issues. But, he must remain innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> I get that we can make mistakes from time to time, we are human. But mistakes mean that the person was in the wrong. Worse still repeated mistakes is bad behaviour and wrong in many more ways; including intent which makes a mistake become malicious.
> 
> He shall remain innocent until proven guilty. Without real information, we cannot judge.




Nah. He already admitted it, apologized and stepped back from his business. 

I apologize to the people I have mistreated and hurt. Although the identities of most of the individuals mentioned in these stories have not been revealed to me, much of the behavior described does, in fact, match up with ways I have acted," Batali said. "That behavior was wrong and there are no excuses. I take full responsibility and am deeply sorry for any pain, humiliation or discomfort I have caused to my peers, employees, customers, friends and family."


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## panda

why does this all have to go public and not handled internally? for example, someone does somethiing inappropriate and the person on the receiving end doesnt like it, confront the guilty party, get management/ownership/HR involved, etc. if it becomes a repeat issue and the same steps dont work then isnt that when it gets escalated to police?? i mean, why is this even news?


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## StonedEdge

Because news outlets are all clawing for any sensationalistic headline. Journalism is dead. Today it's all about the lefties trying to make everyone else look evil, making the world seem like a scary place. This kind of stuff didn't used to be news but now everyone is so hypersensitive that when something happens that they don't like they have to turn it into some sort of a quasi social-movement with catchy hashtags instead of facing the issue head on at a personal level.


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## TheCaptain

Which, once again goes to my point that people are still missing the point.

Have you even been paying attention to any of the details being reported, or is that too much work. In a LOT of these cases the bad behavior was previously reported and swept under the rug because the STONE (figure it out) doing the harassing was deemed more valuable than the accuser. Taught them a lesson, hmmm?

Now things have reached a critical mass and FINALLY action is being taken because we've reached a point where there are a lot of voices standing together (thanks - yes! to social media which makes it more difficult to hide) and saying enough. This isn't right and this has to stop.

and, AND in the past you knew that if you even dared to accuse a superior it was career suicide. So yea, sometimes you kept quiet if you wanted to be able to pay the rent.

But is must be nice to live in a world where you never were demeaned or objectified or made to feel like less of a person. After all, no big deal - right? Racism doesn't exist if you're white, and sexual harassment doesn't exist if you're a dude.


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## Yet-Another-Dave

panda said:


> why does this all have to go public and not handled internally? ....



Because internally hasn't worked, consistently and reliably, for decades and probably longer. Typical response has been rich powerful guy is protected and the complaints were either quashed or covered up, sometimes with payoffs, which has allowed the "dirty little secret" to continue and proliferate.

They say there is no disinfectant like sunshine, in this case all the publicity is the sunshine. It clearly has provided the support needed to empower the victims and encourage the intimidated to come forward. I hope this triggers a cultural change that makes this behavior an exception and allows the quiet private go to HR option to be emphatic and effective and all that is necessary in the future. But we aren't there today.

PS- I suspect the mass cleansing has caused some uneven results and some of the punishments have been disproportionate. But with some more egregious examples still unpunished, I'm happy to live with a few of the creeps getting extreme punishments for their misbehavior.


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## Yet-Another-Dave

TheCaptain said:


> ....



+1


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## labor of love

panda said:


> why does this all have to go public and not handled internally? for example, someone does somethiing inappropriate and the person on the receiving end doesnt like it, confront the guilty party, get management/ownership/HR involved, etc. if it becomes a repeat issue and the same steps dont work then isnt that when it gets escalated to police?? i mean, why is this even news?



Whats crazy is that the Besh Restaurant group didnt even have an HR department. He has hundreds of employees in NOLA alone.


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## Jacob_x

I'm afraid this is a situation that we've brought on ourselves, by creating an environment where sexual harrassment is either acceptable, or any possible action against it logistically impossible - as has been the case for years. So yes, there may be some unfortunate scapegoats along the way, some people hung out to dry etc, but if this is the cost of equality, then we should all be welcoming it. Some of you should take a long hard look at yourselves and think about what's really at stake here.


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## panda

if the guility animal is top of the food chain, then simply go work somewhere else. why would one want to stick around in that environment, no one is forcing them to stay.


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## malexthekid

TheCaptain said:


> As someone on the receiving end, NO - just no. It doesn't matter if you're going for a job that pays minimum wage (as mine did plus commissions) or for a high paying job. Being treated differently, or sexually objectified, simply because you're a woman is ****** no matter where it happens.
> 
> Which is why my friends, we have so much of this stuff still happening. Most still don't get it.
> 
> And I'm not sure so much that's it's the money that corrupts, as it is whenever someone gets in a position of power.


Exactly. Just not on. And it has nothing to do with money it is about power and chefs, especially top ones wield a lot of power in their kitchen.

The whole locker room thing about actions is BS... i can excuse it to a degree when it is just talk. But actions are a totally different business... plus just cause a person allows it doesn't mean they are comfortable with it... more likely they gotta pay the rent.


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## TheCaptain

:bashhead:

I think some folks truly don't realize how widespread this nonsense is.


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## Bill13

I read an article a couple of weeks ago (that I now can not find) about a chef being harassed by another chef. After a couple "I'm not interested" didn't seem to work the next time they were in the walk-in for inventory and he tried to make a move she stabbed him with a fork in the thigh. She said he screamed in pain, cursed at her, left the walk in, and never bothered her again.


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## StonedEdge

People need to take matters into their own hands...that's great to hear


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## HRC_64

TheCaptain said:


> :bashhead:
> 
> I think some folks truly don't realize how widespread this nonsense is.





> The term casting couch first appeared in Variety on Nov. 24, 1937, in a story poking fun at a Chicago Tribune reporter for misusing it because he wasnt cool enough to already know what it meant.





> >Harvey Weinstein scandal: A complete list of the 83 accusers.
> >Harvey Weinstein hired ex-Mossad agents to suppress allegations.
> >Harvey Weinstein's political donations since 2000
> >Report: Clinton Was Warned About Weinstein by Lena Dunham
> 
> "Vice President Joe Biden, who has been outspoken on the issue of sexual assault, also has not appeared to make any public statements about Weinstein since the report came out."
> 
> >As Democrats denounce Weinstein, Clintons and Obama stay mum
> >Harvey Weinstein's Complicity Machine - The New York Times.



Seems like a lot of people have known alot of things for a long tim.


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## Dave Martell

> _Vice President Joe Biden, who has been outspoken on the issue of sexual assault, also has not appeared to make any public statements about Weinstein since the report came out."_



Yeah because Uncle Joe is one of the biggest creeps going.

:whistling:


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## Nemo

StonedEdge said:


> People need to take matters into their own hands...that's great to hear


Unfotunately people do need to take matters into their own hands. That's what they are doing on social media, which seems like a much more civilized way to deal with it than physical assault.

Nobody should have to put up with this behaviour at work or anywhere else.


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## panda

fork stab sounds like a pretty good remedy to me


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## JDA_NC

panda said:


> if the guility animal is top of the food chain, then simply go work somewhere else. why would one want to stick around in that environment, no one is forcing them to stay.



You've never felt pressured to stay in a kitchen/restaurant that you didn't enjoy working at?

Just saying. I can only speak from the perspective for working in kitchens, but I think there are lots & lots of reasons why people stick out unpleasant environments and situations. It doesn't matter where you're working (city wise), the restaurant industry is a small pool and word goes around quickly. I can see why lots of people choose to suffer in silence. The fact is that if you leave a restaurant before the year mark, you're often viewed as a flaky and unstable candidate for other jobs. Often people also feel that they're making the best choice career wise staying and working for certain people - "it opens up so many doors" - and they're lured with the opportunity of promotion within the restaurant(s) too. Never mind kicking up dust and making a scene, which can burn even more bridges and have you painted as emotionally unstable to other perspective employers.

I think the issue gets even more complicated because the working conditions for cooks (regardless of gender) is often so brutal and tough. That's why you see the stupid macho attitude always popping its head up. I know we've all seen ridiculous behavior. I've seen a female Chef hump and humiliate cooks. I've seen lots of sh*t getting thrown, cooks getting hit, all sorts of yelling, and plenty of people breaking down crying and/or disappearing (sometimes right before service starts) because the pressure is so much. It's often long, long hours, almost no social life, tons of stress, being treated like garbage, and all for generally measly pay. We wear this often as a badge of pride - making it through the fire - and generally we're better, stronger cooks because of it. But that doesn't necessarily make it right.


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## malexthekid

StonedEdge said:


> Because news outlets are all clawing for any sensationalistic headline. Journalism is dead. Today it's all about the lefties trying to make everyone else look evil, making the world seem like a scary place. This kind of stuff didn't used to be news but now everyone is so hypersensitive that when something happens that they don't like they have to turn it into some sort of a quasi social-movement with catchy hashtags instead of facing the issue head on at a personal level.


I love that to you sexual assault and rape is a leftist liberal issue to create a "quasi-social movement with catchy hashtags"...


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## malexthekid

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> Because internally hasn't worked, consistently and reliably, for decades and probably longer. Typical response has been rich powerful guy is protected and the complaints were either quashed or covered up, sometimes with payoffs, which has allowed the "dirty little secret" to continue and proliferate.
> 
> They say there is no disinfectant like sunshine, in this case all the publicity is the sunshine. It clearly has provided the support needed to empower the victims and encourage the intimidated to come forward. I hope this triggers a cultural change that makes this behavior an exception and allows the quiet private go to HR option to be emphatic and effective and all that is necessary in the future. But we aren't there today.
> 
> PS- I suspect the mass cleansing has caused some uneven results and some of the punishments have been disproportionate. But with some more egregious examples still unpunished, I'm happy to live with a few of the creeps getting extreme punishments for their misbehavior.


+1 to both. 


TheCaptain said:


> Which, once again goes to my point that people are still missing the point.
> 
> Have you even been paying attention to any of the details being reported, or is that too much work. In a LOT of these cases the bad behavior was previously reported and swept under the rug because the STONE (figure it out) doing the harassing was deemed more valuable than the accuser. Taught them a lesson, hmmm?
> 
> Now things have reached a critical mass and FINALLY action is being taken because we've reached a point where there are a lot of voices standing together (thanks - yes! to social media which makes it more difficult to hide) and saying enough. This isn't right and this has to stop.
> 
> and, AND in the past you knew that if you even dared to accuse a superior it was career suicide. So yea, sometimes you kept quiet if you wanted to be able to pay the rent.
> 
> But is must be nice to live in a world where you never were demeaned or objectified or made to feel like less of a person. After all, no big deal - right? Racism doesn't exist if you're white, and sexual harassment doesn't exist if you're a dude.


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## malexthekid

Dave Martell said:


> Yeah because Uncle Joe is one of the biggest creeps going.
> 
> :whistling:


Just cause he spent 8 years crushing on Barak &#128512;&#128514;


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## Yet-Another-Dave

Bill13 said:


> I read an article a couple of weeks ago (that I now can not find) about a chef being harassed by another chef. After a couple "I'm not interested" didn't seem to work the next time they were in the walk-in for inventory and he tried to make a move she stabbed him with a fork in the thigh. She said he screamed in pain, cursed at her, left the walk in, and never bothered her again.



It worked that time.

How many times has it turned into fired, arrested, and convicted of assault? Few enough you'd be willing to risk it? In a culture that stereotypes, even institutionalizes, the "lying b*tch", what should a woman assume her odds are in a "he-said" / "she-said" situation? Now, what are the odds in a "he has physical evidence" / "she-said"? You don't need much imagination to figure out several stories starting with, "I just ask her out and she....", all ending with plausible deniability and another perp off the hook, with a victim shamed or punished. How many times would you need to see that story play out before you concluded it was a hopeless lose-lose situation and sucked it up and endured as a least of all evils solution?




panda said:


> if the guility animal is top of the food chain, then simply go work somewhere else. why would one want to stick around in that environment, no one is forcing them to stay.



Not possible, if you need to earn a living, in an environment when odds are the same things go on at 7 or 8 of each 10 alternatives, assuming there are any alternatives. How often does a "trouble maker" get branded and black-balled? (Sometimes for legitimate reasons, but often not.) What are your options then? Change fields?

I'd guess the initial few brave souls to come forward where not only fed up, but in a personally secure situation that provided a safe landing zone / escape plan. If your situation requires this paycheck to make rent or buy your next meal, (or you kid's next meal!), it is hard to be brave and risk losing that even if you're doing the right thing in an abstract sense!


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## panda

JDA_NC said:


> You've never felt pressured to stay in a kitchen/restaurant that you didn't enjoy working at?
> You've never felt pressured to stay in a kitchen/restaurant that you didn't enjoy working at?



no, then again i am different animal from most.. i've never bought into the 'this is good for my resume' motivator. 
i dont deal well with cryers, i either make them cry even more or most often just send them home. if one cant deal, they chose the wrong career, you have to be pretty insane to deal with this sh*t every day and not lose it. i dont trust anybody that seems normal in this life, haha.

but i absolutely agree toxic behavior needs to be neutralized. i just think there are better ways to go about it than social media. dock pay for every credible(witnesss) infraction, i bet you that will cut the instances in half!


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## StonedEdge

malexthekid said:


> I love that to you sexual assault and rape is a leftist liberal issue to create a "quasi-social movement with catchy hashtags"...
> 
> I take it you don't have children (or daughters to be particular).


Thank goodness I do not. The last thing the world needs is more humans. 

Now to explain my post 

I'm just saying why is this hitting fan just now if it's been such a huge issue for so long? One would think that if it was THAT bad, this would have happened eons ago.

I understand there's some truly gross and culpable people (mostly but not exclusively men) who rightfully deserve to be roasted for their ****** behavior.

What I have no respect for are the plethora of other "victims" who've come come out of the woodwork sometimes decades after the fact to try and get a piece of this hot action with either fabricated or over-exagerated claims and thereby diluting the real, and actually brutal claims of other women who've had more than a few mean words uttered at them.

Case in point is a lovely but obviously mentally lacking member of Parliament here in Canada who waited since the beginning of last summer in order to issue a statement regarding a "traumatic" and "scarring" event whereby she took a photo with two other members of Parliament, one of them a male (and all 3 from rival parties) where the man in question quipped "well this isnt my idea of a threesome".

Now, bad joke, bad taste. But sacrring and traumatic? Absolutely not.

I don't understand nor respect any and all women who throw around such accusations because it demeans and dilutes the claims of victims of actual abuse.

I'm all for women going on with this proverbial witch hunt, because there are some real witches out there, but when I see people like Monica Lewinsky saying #MeToo I lose some support for this "movement"


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## malexthekid

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> It worked that time.
> 
> How many times has it turned into fired, arrested, and convicted of assault? Few enough you'd be willing to risk it? In a culture that stereotypes, even institutionalizes, the "lying b*tch", what should a woman assume her odds are in a "he-said" / "she-said" situation? Now, what are the odds in a "he has physical evidence" / "she-said"? You don't need much imagination to figure out several stories starting with, "I just ask her out and she....", all ending with plausible deniability and another perp off the hook, with a victim shamed or punished. How many times would you need to see that story play out before you concluded it was a hopeless lose-lose situation and sucked it up and endured as a least of all evils solution?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not possible, if you need to earn a living, in an environment when odds are the same things go on at 7 or 8 of each 10 alternatives, assuming there are any alternatives. How often does a "trouble maker" get branded and black-balled? (Sometimes for legitimate reasons, but often not.) What are your options then? Change fields?
> 
> I'd guess the initial few brave souls to come forward where not only fed up, but in a personally secure situation that provided a safe landing zone / escape plan. If your situation requires this paycheck to make rent or buy your next meal, (or you kid's next meal!), it is hard to be brave and risk losing that even if you're doing the right thing in an abstract sense!


Exactly... look at how long it took for the weinstein rubbish to gain mass momentum... and that was against some reasonably well off and successful woman..

Now imagine you are on minimum wage supporting a kid by yourself and having to pay rent.... you think you gonna risk your job to come forward or just "suck it up".


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## Godslayer

panda said:


> no, then again i am different animal from most.. i've never bought into the 'this is good for my resume' motivator.
> i dont deal well with cryers, i either make them cry even more or most often just send them home. if one cant deal, they chose the wrong career, you have to be pretty insane to deal with this sh*t every day and not lose it. i dont trust anybody that seems normal in this life, haha.



Normal people don't make it, you need to be fundamentally flawed as an individual. On this note, I do not condone sexual assault in or out of the kitchen, I had a creepy chef who used to be handsy, I dealt with it, but didn't respect him because of it.


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## StonedEdge

malexthekid said:


> I love that to you sexual assault and rape is a leftist liberal issue



It's an issue that covers the entire spectrum...I'm just deeply enjoying that at the moment it's mostly liberals vs liberals eating each other over it all.


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## malexthekid

StonedEdge said:


> It's an issue that covers the entire spectrum...I'm just deeply enjoying that at the moment it's mostly liberals vs liberals eating each other over it all.


And yet you don't find that to be a bigger issue that one side appears to be quite happy with the status quo?

Afterall you say it as an issue that should be apolitical... yet you have two totally different responses.


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## StonedEdge

malexthekid said:


> And yet you don't find that to be a bigger issue that one side appears to be quite happy with the status quo?
> 
> Afterall you say it as an issue that should be apolitical... yet you have two totally different responses.


Think of my original response as the Coles notes version, and my subsequent responses as the wiki. But most of all, don't read too deeply into my responses.


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## malexthekid

StonedEdge said:


> Think of my original response as the Coles notes version, and my subsequent responses as the wiki. But most of all, don't read too deeply into my responses.


One should never take off topic hobby forum responses too seriously... some topics make it a tad difficult.


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## panda

how does politics always seem to creep into every discussion? i see this also as some form of harassment!!


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## labor of love

Its been an open secret for years that the Besh restaurant group is not a healthy environment to work in. Odds are we probably have some members here that can elaborate. The company has quite the history of not treating their employees well, the patterns of sexual harassment is just one faucet. 
Mario also has a history of being a real POS to work with. He lost a class action lawsuit a few years ago for taking a percentage of tips from his FOH staff. Even his one time sous (the blonde woman) has also faced sexual harassment suits.
I reject the notion that this is some sort of industry wide problem, as my 20 years of experience has taught me so. Laws, media and public pressure are in place to combat this issue.
Lets keep politics out of this, its a problem that should offend everyone.


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## fatboylim

panda said:


> if the guility animal is top of the food chain, then simply go work somewhere else. why would one want to stick around in that environment, no one is forcing them to stay.


Dude! I love your critical thoughts on knives. On treatment of women, come on. Simply work somewhere else and risk experiencing the same? I love the empowerment of women, but it needs help on occasions like these. We can all do better, men and women.


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## JDA_NC

panda said:


> no, then again i am different animal from most.. i've never bought into the 'this is good for my resume' motivator.
> i dont deal well with cryers, i either make them cry even more or most often just send them home. if one cant deal, they chose the wrong career, you have to be pretty insane to deal with this sh*t every day and not lose it. i dont trust anybody that seems normal in this life, haha.
> 
> but i absolutely agree toxic behavior needs to be neutralized. i just think there are better ways to go about it than social media. dock pay for every credible(witnesss) infraction, i bet you that will cut the instances in half!



Being unique and different is cool but it doesn't discount or discredit the feelings of the majority of people who feel differently. I know I've been in plenty of situations where I felt I needed to stick it out because of my resume - and talking to most cooks I've known, most feel the same way too.

I also have lived in a good mix of States, cities, and markets and I think as part of that, I also don't subscribe to the idea that you should do certain career moves because "it's the right thing to do" and that it's the end all be all for you and your career/resume. If I feel a situation is toxic, then I will, and think you should, move on. Life goes on.

But it's a still a small pond.

I know I've met one member of this forum working in a kitchen (good dude, doesn't post much, and him and I have both moved on to other places as far as I still know). I also know that I've worked in a couple restaurants that other posters here have or still do work at. At different time periods but still the same places and a lot of the same people.

I can understand why people are hesisitant to blow the whistle or kick up dirt on others.


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## Salty dog

I don't see this as a political issue. There are douche bags on both sides of the aisle.
With that being said, I can't disagree with most of the previous posts. My thoughts are all over the place. 
In my experience it's been more of an issue in the front of the house.


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## Nemo

labor of love said:


> Lets keep politics out of this, its a problem that should offend everyone.



Well said sir!


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## panda




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## zetieum

TheCaptain said:


> ...





TheCaptain said:


> ...



+1
Great posts.


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## Chef Doom

panda said:


>


I remember this meme hahaha.


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## Chef Doom

I don't mind empowering women and eliminating sexual harrassment in the workplace if it leads to the legalization of prostitution and removes the shame of the local strip club. A man has to get his gratification somewhere right?


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## StonedEdge

Pro tip: It ain't shameful if you don't let it be

Those dancers gotta pay for college (or a new Audi)


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## Chef Doom

Now I want to find a lawer and ask if it would be sexual harrassment to ask a bunch of coworkers both male and female if they would like to meet up at a Titty Bar after work?


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## StonedEdge

Chef Doom said:


> Now I want to find a lawer and ask if it would be sexual harrassment to ask a bunch of coworkers both male and female if they would like to meet up at a Titty Bar after work?


My brother works in a welding shop....they had their company x mas party at a strip club, ladies included.


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## panda

I like it when they're honest and straight up say to maintain their lifestyle.


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## jaybett

From what I've been reading over the past few weeks, the restaurant industry day of reckoning has come. Here is the latest. 

https://nypost.com/2017/12/12/famed-restaurateur-ken-friedman-accused-of-sexual-harassment/

Jay


----------



## Nemo

I get that some of the last few posts are probably 'just a bit of fun'. The problem is that the jerks who do the harassing see this as people openly disrespecting women and they take it as tacit approval of their harassing behaviour. Disrespect enables bullying and harassment.

I'm not saying don't talk about sexual topics or gender differences, but you can do it in a more respectful way.


----------



## Nemo

Chef Doom said:


> Now I want to find a lawer and ask if it would be sexual harrassment to ask a bunch of coworkers both male and female if they would like to meet up at a Titty Bar after work?


As you no doubt well know, it's fine to talk to a woman about sex or titty bars or whatever else. As long as the conversation is OK with her. But if she asks you to stop talking about it or gives signals that she's uncomfortable talking about it with you, then you need to stop.

I suspect that you will be much more likely to get her consent for this sort of conversation if you use a more respectful tone.

Harrassment is not really about sex, it's about demonstrating ones power over someone (who by definition they do not respect) by doing things to them that they don't consent to.


----------



## TheCaptain

Or speaking about women in a way that objectified them as sexual objects who only exist for gratification. It's really about trying to make someone feel like less, apparently because that's the only way some can feel better about themselves.

But I don't really take seriously anyone who is so limited in their world view they have to consistently resort to attempts to demean others in order to make a point.

Just saying....


----------



## alterwisser

I can only say: It is ABSOLUTELY correct and GREAT that these cases all come out now and that these a-holes are exposed and shamed. Why? Yes, because it is rampant. It was. And it shouldn't be in the year 2017.

Everyone who makes comments like "go work somewhere else" or "deal with it in private" ... or worse, who makes it a liberal thing ... come on folks, this isn't about right or left, this is about what is right (no pun intended), it's about human decency. Because the offenders are neither only liberal nor only conservatives. They are only male, that's all!

If it could've been handled privately, great. But no, wait ... you know why I think it is f***ing great that these cases are all being discussed so publicly right now? Because it finally send a message to would be and wanna be offenders: You might think you can get away with this, but think twice. Because this is what happens to you if your victims don't shut up like you want them to ...


----------



## StonedEdge

Sorry to burst your bubble alterwiser but harassing ******** are not only male.


----------



## alterwisser

StonedEdge said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble alterwiser but harassing ******** are not only male.



Oh come on. Yeah, its not ONLY .... just like 99% of the time its a guy.


----------



## StonedEdge

The worst/most condescending and sexist boss I've ever had was a woman fyi


----------



## labor of love

Most sexist/racist/offensive chef I ever worked for was gay. He was an equal opportunity harasser.


----------



## Chef Doom

StonedEdge said:


> My brother works in a welding shop....they had their company x mas party at a strip club, ladies included.


Is his job hiring? I kid I kid. Never welded a day in my life.


----------



## alterwisser

StonedEdge said:


> The worst/most condescending and sexist boss I've ever had was a woman fyi



Mine, too! But it still doesnt change the fact that in the majority of sexual harassment cases a man is the offender....


----------



## Chef Doom

Nemo said:


> I get that some of the last few posts are probably 'just a bit of fun'. The problem is that the jerks who do the harassing see this as people openly disrespecting women and they take it as tacit approval of their harassing behaviour. Disrespect enables bullying and harassment.
> 
> I'm not saying don't talk about sexual topics or gender differences, but you can do it in a more respectful way.


But the pendulum never geats to a neutral state. It starts with that as a reason for laws and legislation but eventually a woman only needs to feel uncomfortable or scarred without reason or proof for a man's life to be put into shambles. I think violent law offenders should be punished but mere accusations should not put you in a homeless shelter.


----------



## Chef Doom

TheCaptain said:


> But I don't really take seriously anyone who is so limited in their world view they have to consistently resort to attempts to demean others in order to make a point.
> 
> Just saying....



The very heart of being apart of any Western Nation based on a past conquering empire is demeaning others. How do you think women weed out there competition. How do you think men get along socially?


----------



## Chef Doom

alterwisser said:


> Oh come on. Yeah, its not ONLY .... just like 99% of the time its a guy.


Mostly because men are victimized for their agressive behavior where female sexual agression is shown sympathy. Although there will be a benefit of society forcing men to direct their sexual quests towards territories that are more appropriate.

Damn 18th century puritans should have never of been given a vote on local business establishments.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

labor of love said:


> Most sexist/racist/offensive chef I ever worked for was gay. He was an equal opportunity harasser.



Had that experience too. He was married had kids and liked young male kitchen workers. This was decades ago.

As you mentioned laws have changed the kitchen workforce for the better. In Hotels many pantry workers are women. To survive in the industry most developed thick skin & knew how to dish it out and insult would be Romeo's.

When a cute worker came to work cooks would visit cold kitchen more like monkeys on the hunt. 

Think it is good that serious sex offenders get exposed. Being abused sexually can be lead to all kinds of detrimental social behavior and anger.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts

I would say in an industry (kitchen) where livelihoods and not just steps in a luxury career (hollywood) depend on it, abuse of power (not: assaultive behaviours. always the worst anywhere.) is to be rated far worse (than in the hollywood scenario). Just my amateur opinion.


----------



## TheCaptain

Chef Doom said:


> The very heart of being apart of any Western Nation based on a past conquering empire is demeaning others. How do you think women weed out there competition. How do you think men get along socially?


I can honestly say I've always succeeded on my own merits. Being demeaning is not necessary if you have enough confidence in your abilities and the moxy to back it up.

I've also managed large groups of people very effectively in high pressure situations without making them cry or demeaning them in any way. It's possible to be an effective leader without being a jerk. 

There's enough negative **** in the world without me adding to it. 

I can say that now with confidence because I'm pretty much at the top of my game career wise. Got there by being good at what I do, not by being an @sshole. It's possible to rise to the top without climbing over the backs of others.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Good for you. A efficient manager is just that. No matter what the gender.


----------



## Dave Martell

Ken Friedman - Spotted Pig NYC

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/dining/ken-friedman-sexual-harassment.html

https://nypost.com/2017/12/12/famed-restaurateur-ken-friedman-accused-of-sexual-harassment/

Rape Room?


----------



## panda

I've been sexually harassed by many women that I definitely did not enjoy (grossed out), but i just laughed it off cause at the end of the day it was harmless. However, I do think in a reversed scenario it's not so harmless. Yet I still fail to see why this needs to be a publicity event.


----------



## Chef Doom

TheCaptain said:


> I can honestly say I've always succeeded on my own merits. Being demeaning is not necessary if you have enough confidence in your abilities and the moxy to back it up.
> 
> I've also managed large groups of people very effectively in high pressure situations without making them cry or demeaning them in any way. It's possible to be an effective leader without being a jerk.
> 
> There's enough negative **** in the world without me adding to it.
> 
> I can say that now with confidence because I'm pretty much at the top of my game career wise. Got there by being good at what I do, not by being an @sshole. It's possible to rise to the top without climbing over the backs of others.


I would like to see you run a successful military unit with the same attitude &#129315;


----------



## Chef Doom

panda said:


> I've been sexually harassed by many women that I definitely did not enjoy (grossed out), but i just laughed it off cause at the end of the day it was harmless. However, I do think in a reversed scenario it's not so harmless. Yet I still fail to see why this needs to be a publicity event.


I guessing they were not that attractive. Or you were married to a jealouse wife?


----------



## panda

why would i be grossed out if they were attractive?


----------



## orangehero

TheCaptain said:


> Racism doesn't exist if you're white, and sexual harassment doesn't exist if you're a dude.



Was this meant to be ironic? :scratchhead:


----------



## Salty dog

Colichio or whatever his name is makes it sound like we're all abusers or at least conspirators. I take great exception to that. I'm supposed to feel ashamed now because a celebrity Chef has a big pulpit? Screw that guy.


----------



## TheCaptain

Chef Doom said:


> I would like to see you run a successful military unit with the same attitude &#129315;



You mean this military? I didn't go searching for this, it came across my newsfeed this morning.

http://time.com/5060570/military-wo...utm_content=2017121312pm&xid=newsletter-brief

No thanks. I have a relative who works in the DOJ in an area which has geographical jurisdiction over a large military base. They have prosecutorial discretion is theirs if the crime was committed against a civilian or if charges are filed by a civilian. The towering respect we used to have for the services took a huge nosedive once the cases (and the ones involving children are worse and far more prevelant than anyone would want to believe) started coming across her desk. The lengths the military goes to in order to protect some of the accused are in themselves, criminal.

Yet another reason we can't simply handle this stuff privately.


----------



## TheCaptain

orangehero said:


> Was this meant to be ironic? :scratchhead:



Yea. Sorry, I thought it was heavy enough to come across clearly. Subtlety is not my strong suit.


----------



## tripleq

Social issues are discussed in a completely rational manner without misunderstanding or hyperbole. Everyone walks away happy and the community is better for it. 







Something that never happens on the Internet.


----------



## Bill13

tripleq said:


> Social issues are discussed in a completely rational manner without misunderstanding or hyperbole. Everyone walks away happy and the community is better for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something that never happens on the Internet.



LOL!


----------



## Chef Doom

LOL!


----------



## Chef Doom

So what are the solutions for preventing the future Batalis of the world? 

1. Castration
2. Lobotomy
3. Chemicaly induced impotence
4. No more male head chefs
5. Banning women from all kitchens
6. Legalized Prostitution
7. Public Stoning


----------



## daveb

Is acting like adults off the table?

And what's getting stoned in public going to do to prevent aholes? Half the cooks I know, do that already.


----------



## panda

allow vigilantism punishment for offenders
you grab a booty you get a boot in yo face


----------



## labor of love

Sexual harassment can be quite a big umbrella. Just overhearing a coworker describe his sexy time the night before and feeling offended can constitute harassment. Then theres stuff that is pretty dangerous and actually threatening for members of the staff. The reason that feelings about this subject are all over the place is because the real scary fukked up stuff is lumped in with crybaby stuff. Also certain loose language is acceptable to 90% of kitchen staff(guys and gals) but there can be that one stick in the mud that gets butthurt over sexy time stories. So yes doom, the safest thing to do to cover your ass in the future is to basically act neutered at work.


----------



## HRC_64

> Salma Hayek claims Harvey Weinstein threatened to kill her



[video=youtube;7__rt0hRm8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7__rt0hRm8s[/video]

Nobody does it better ...


than Hollywood


----------



## TheCaptain

Chef Doom said:


> So what are the solutions for preventing the future Batalis of the world?
> 
> 1. Castration
> 2. Lobotomy
> 3. Chemicaly induced impotence
> 4. No more male head chefs
> 5. Banning women from all kitchens
> 6. Legalized Prostitution
> 7. Public Stoning



Let me make it really easy for you, one word:

RESPECT

And yes, as we all know, harassment goes across genders and sexual preferences. However that one word would go a long way toward resolving a lot of conflict in many areas.


----------



## Chef Doom

daveb said:


> Is acting like adults off the table?
> 
> And what's getting stoned in public going to do to prevent aholes? Half the cooks I know, do that already.


Acting like adults historically has been a useless endeavor. That is why laws and religion was created in the first.


----------



## Chef Doom

TheCaptain said:


> Let me make it really easy for you, one word:
> 
> RESPECT
> 
> And yes, as we all know, harassment goes across genders and sexual preferences. However that one word would go a long way toward resolving a lot of conflict in many areas.


Respect requires that you either know a persons position ahead of time or they are willing to confront you when you unknowingly cross the line. Not to mention the word is often missused and abused with loose consensus of its original meaning.


----------



## jessf

Chef Doom said:


> Respect requires that you either know a persons position ahead of time or they are willing to confront you when you unknowingly cross the line. Not to mention the word is often missused and abused with loose consensus of its original meaning.



You may need to explain that a little more. I have found it very easy to be respectful of complete strangers in foreign countries with no common language between us. Respect is a very basic human interaction mechanism.


----------



## Chef Doom

jessf said:


> You may need to explain that a little more. I have found it very easy to be respectful of complete strangers in foreign countries with no common language between us. Respect is a very basic human interaction mechanism.


People confuse the word respect and apply it to situations that do not fit. Most people don't even know the standard definition of the word respect or its root origins.

What you are referring to is common courtesy and general expected behaviors that depends on society, culture and environments.

To keep it simple, a european male kisses me on the cheeks, he gets punched in the stomach. Culture be damned! [emoji109]


----------



## jessf

Chef Doom said:


> People confuse the word respect and apply it to situations that do not fit. Most people don't even know the standard definition of the word respect or its root origins.
> 
> What you are referring to is common courtesy and general expected behaviors that depends on society, culture and environments.
> 
> To keep it simple, a european male kisses me on the cheeks, he gets punched in the stomach. Culture be damned! [emoji109]



no what I was referring to in my instance was respect. you would do best to ask questions instead of making bs statements.


----------



## tripleq

Man. This thread is polarizing the forum. Maybe it's time to wrap it up?


----------



## Nemo

The most relevent definition of "respect" in the Oxford English Dictionary is "Due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others".

While "courtesy" is defined as "The showing of politeness in one's attitude and behaviour towards others".

Not that confusing IMO.

I don't really get the bit about punching people though.


----------



## jessf

the premiss that you need to know the persons position in order to demonstarte respect is false. Many people on this forum respect knife makers and their craft and do so without knowing or meeting that maker. You can simply respect a persons ability and not even share a common language. I saw that everywhere overseas and it wasnt common courtesy i was expressing. A definition is easily found but its application is obviously harder for some to grasp.


----------



## OliverNuther

Nemo said:


> I don't really get the bit about punching people though.



That's how you earn respect, Nemo. (He said ironically)


----------



## HRC_64




----------



## OliverNuther

HRC_64 said:


>



I can't believe it hasn't been shot full of holes yet.


----------



## tripleq

That sign is all over the net. I think it is from the UK (could well be an intentional gag). Not many guns around.


----------



## sachem allison

I have worked with him a few times and he is that creepy douche. No doubts.


----------



## Marek07

sachem allison said:


> I have worked with him a few times and he is that creepy douche. No doubts.


In the interests of clarity, or perhaps just to straighten my brain cells out, who is the "him" you are referring to please?


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts

respect (n)

1. Some obscure god that macho-ish people worship. Complete with the taboo of actually trying to understand a deity.
2. Something to start severe trouble with. Simply make any group of people confuse respect, civility and tolerance. Get popcorn.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

TheCaptain said:


> Which, once again goes to my point that people are still missing the point.
> 
> Have you even been paying attention to any of the details being reported, or is that too much work. In a LOT of these cases the bad behavior was previously reported and swept under the rug because the STONE (figure it out) doing the harassing was deemed more valuable than the accuser. Taught them a lesson, hmmm?
> 
> Now things have reached a critical mass and FINALLY action is being taken because we've reached a point where there are a lot of voices standing together (thanks - yes! to social media which makes it more difficult to hide) and saying enough. This isn't right and this has to stop.
> 
> and, AND in the past you knew that if you even dared to accuse a superior it was career suicide. So yea, sometimes you kept quiet if you wanted to be able to pay the rent.
> 
> But is must be nice to live in a world where you never were demeaned or objectified or made to feel like less of a person. After all, no big deal - right? Racism doesn't exist if you're white, and sexual harassment doesn't exist if you're a dude.



I agree. 

Id like to mention that it isnt all about the sex. Its a power thing. Someone using their position of authority over someone with less options ( maybe perceived?). Either way, using your authority or power to harass someone sexually is total Krap. 

Ive had it happen to me, and Im male! I didnt come forward, but I did remove myself from the position. I was just a kid.


----------



## Matus

tripleq said:


> Man. This thread is polarizing the forum. Maybe it's time to wrap it up?



No, this thread just unveils a little more than an average 'what knife should I buy next' thread what kind of characters we hide behind our internet 'identities'. I would rather see some comments being removed (should that be necessary, I think that was not the case yet), rather than a whole thread closed. I find that some very interesting posts were made.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts

As a dude, speaking frankly: "reported and swept under the rug" (in a way that involves police corruption etc...) is certainly unacceptable, and 100% this has to stop. The only thing I don't like about the way it is being handled currently is that it seems to bring a big undercurrent of pre-1960s mores with it... the assumption "of course she didn't like it, and if she says she is under some influence/lying, so don't let her speak for herself" that has been occasionally found in certain discussions (not on the surface regarding the weinstein etc. cases, but often enough in this decade's sexism debate) has two terrible aftertastes at once : One of victorian era morality (which regarded normal female sexuality as submission, not pleasure. uggghhh. ) . Another of "what the woman says don't count" (exactly the assumption that is usually at the root of terrible things!). Advocating promiscuity and sexism are mixed up with each other...

Also, there is an uncomfortable truth about identifying oneself a victim, or letting anyone else call you a victim. In an ideal, utopian society it might mark one as someone to protect. In some spaces in today's harsh reality, it marks one as a target.


----------



## gringoze

"the safest thing to do to cover your ass in the future is to basically act neutered at work."

Yep, the only real solution. 

Multiple times I have had very attractive girls do things like rub their breasts on my back, offer "to do anything" for a specific job, or just simply get super flirty at work. 
Almost EVERY time I have seen a woman leave work, it has been with some allegation of having been harrased, even if they were the ones that had instigated it. 
I learned to keep to myself at work many years ago. (well, with the exception of 'stairwell girl', but that's a story for a different forum.) 

Funny how different things are from when I began work in '89, every computer screen had pictures of girls in bikinis pasted to the sides... Even crazier to go back 30 years prior to that, to watch old Cary Grant movies and seeing him slap someone like Doris Day across the face on the corner of a busy Manhattan Street, middle of the day, with no one stopping to comment.


----------



## JayGee

Is Chef Doom Ken M?


----------



## WildBoar

boomchakabowwow said:


> Ive had it happen to me, and Im male! I didnt come forward, but I did remove myself from the position. I was just a kid.


Thank you for bringing some levity to this heavy subject with this double-entendre-laced post :biggrin:

When the harassment stories started pouring out, I suspected it would not take long before restaurant stories appeared. While I have never worked in one, I had friends who were line cooks years back, and they had lots of stories to tell about the goings-on. It definitely was a different atmosphere then an engineering office.


----------



## Chef Doom

JayGee said:


> Is Chef Doom Ken M?


Who is Ken M?


----------



## Chef Doom

Nemo said:


> The most relevent definition of "respect" in the Oxford English Dictionary is "Due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others".
> 
> While "courtesy" is defined as "The showing of politeness in one's attitude and behaviour towards others".
> 
> Not that confusing IMO.
> 
> I don't really get the bit about punching people though.



My main man Webster says the first definition of respect in it's verbal form is "1 a) to feel or show honor or esteem for; hold in high regard b) to consider or treat with deference or dutiful regard."

I would like to note that I have neither high regard, honor, nor esteem for neither friend, family, nor kitchen knife forum member.

I would also like to note that Oxford is for weak millennials that grew up getting generic trophies for losing.


----------



## Chef Doom

jessf said:


> the premiss that you need to know the persons position in order to demonstarte respect is false. Many people on this forum respect knife makers and their craft and do so without knowing or meeting that maker. You can simply respect a persons ability and not even share a common language. I saw that everywhere overseas and it wasnt common courtesy i was expressing. A definition is easily found but its application is obviously harder for some to grasp.



I am not here to argue the merits of people having a false sense of respect for people they never met. People do so with celebrities all of the time.

I will put it to you like this. Some cultures feel that it is disrespectful to look at a person in the eye who holds a higher position of authority than you do. Bosses, parents, generals in the military for example. Some cultures feel it is disrespectful to look away or down when being spoken to. If you are new to that culture and do not understand or know better you will get a free pass the first time or two. Afterwards you are expected to know better.

Respect is not as universal as people claim it is to be if you do not know a persons' or cultures expectations or boundaries ahead of time. You can make general basic assumptions as a safe guard which is fine also, but even that is not guaranteed in all situations.


----------



## Chef Doom

OliverNuther said:


> That's how you earn respect, Nemo. (He said ironically)



Now that I think about it, maybe that was too violent. How about a stiff grab of the collar and a stern warning? Maybe a light one handed shove Will Smith style?


----------



## panda

Chef Doom said:


> My main man Webster says the first definition of respect in it's verbal form is "1 a) to feel or show honor or esteem for; hold in high regard b) to consider or treat with deference or dutiful regard."
> 
> I would like to note that I have neither high regard, honor, nor esteem for neither friend, family, nor kitchen knife forum member.
> 
> I would also like to note that Oxford is for weak millennials that grew up getting generic trophies for losing.



LMAO


----------



## Chef Doom

HRC_64 said:


>



:rofl2:


----------



## Chef Doom

sachem allison said:


> I have worked with him a few times and he is that creepy douche. No doubts.



Next thing is you are going to tell me Mario Batali is not his real name. It's Christopher White.


----------



## Chef Doom

boomchakabowwow said:


> I agree.
> 
> Id like to mention that it isnt all about the sex. Its a power thing. Someone using their position of authority over someone with less options ( maybe perceived?). Either way, using your authority or power to harass someone sexually is total Krap.



I guess my whole plan of running for political office is now off the rails. I was looking forward to the random hot female pharmaceutical representative and the Charlie Wilson style all female staff. Times are changing I tell you.


----------



## Chef Doom

WildBoar said:


> Thank you for bringing some levity to this heavy subject with this double-entendre-laced post :biggrin:
> 
> When the harassment stories started pouring out, I suspected it would not take long before restaurant stories appeared. While I have never worked in one, I had friends who were line cooks years back, and they had lots of stories to tell about the goings-on. It definitely was a different atmosphere then an engineering office.



I never worked in a kitchen with professional chefs but even if I was in a position of power I would be too afraid to cross the wrong women in a room full of weapons. Don't want to end up being tomorrows special sausage dish.


----------



## Chef Doom

JayGee said:


> Is Chef Doom Ken M?



Oh, Yeah, Yeah, Ken M, that's me. :biggrin:


----------



## StonedEdge

Chef Doom I'd vote for you any day. Anything to stop an over sensitive, PC, safe space dwelling nutjob from holding office. 

P.S. Matt Damon is 110% correct in his assessment of this witchhunt oops i mean social movement

Now before all the SJWs jump down my throat let me say the following;
I've only been witness to a single event in my life which I would categorize as real sexual harassment (off coloured and distasteful jokes are not sexual assault nor sexual harassment, as some ladies would try and tell you), this was in grade 6 when the female visual arts teacher took off her clothes in class in front of all the other children and asked us "do I look pretty"

Apparantly firing a unionized public school teacher is next to impossible.

So please, spare me the all men are controlling monsters garbage.


----------



## daveb

While I think the pendulum may have swung far, I keep hoping that Bobby Flay gets outed. He's a douche and treats wimins like crap.


----------



## Chef Doom

daveb said:


> While I think the pendulum may have swung far, I keep hoping that Bobby Flay gets outed. He's a douche and treats wimins like crap.



NOOOO!!! Not the Throwdown Meister himself!? Say it aint so Bobby! Say it aint SO!


----------



## WildBoar

Is treating people like crap the same thing as sexually harassing them?


----------



## StonedEdge

WildBoar said:


> Is treating people like crap the same thing as sexually harassing them?


Nope


----------



## labor of love

WildBoar said:


> Is treating people like crap the same thing as sexually harassing them?



Harassment is a much celebrated tradition, just cant have a sexual basis now.


----------



## Lucretia

TheCaptain said:


> and, AND in the past you knew that if you even dared to accuse a superior it was career suicide. So yea, sometimes you kept quiet if you wanted to be able to pay the rent.



It wasn't in the restaurant business, but I remember the exact point in time when I killed my career. I had a boss who was putting together a pitch for funding and was in competition with another group in our division. He told me to go flutter my eyelashes, sweet-talk, "do whatever you need to do" to find out what the competitor was proposing so he (my boss) could undermine him. Not only belittling, but unethical as heck. The mistake I made was going to the personnel dept for advice on how to handle the situation--they told me "your boss gave you a direct order--follow it" and I was blackballed. (And yes, Wildboar, it was in an engineering department, so it happens there, too.)


----------



## Lucretia

WildBoar said:


> Is treating people like crap the same thing as sexually harassing them?



Per the EOC:

"It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that persons sex. Harassment can include sexual harassment or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a persons sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesnt prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer."


----------



## daveb

WildBoar said:


> Is treating people like crap the same thing as sexually harassing them?



"like crap" was shorthand for demeaning, on-air words and actions based on their sex" And he's a douche.


----------



## WildBoar

Lucretia said:


> It wasn't in the restaurant business, but I remember the exact point in time when I killed my career. I had a boss who was putting together a pitch for funding and was in competition with another group in our division. He told me to go flutter my eyelashes, sweet-talk, "do whatever you need to do" to find out what the competitor was proposing so he (my boss) could undermine him. Not only belittling, but unethical as heck. The mistake I made was going to the personnel dept for advice on how to handle the situation--they told me "your boss gave you a direct order--follow it" and I was blackballed. (And yes, Wildboar, it was in an engineering department, so it happens there, too.)


No question what you boss asked you to do was wrong. And it would have been wrong as well if he asked a man to go find info so he could undermine the other team. That type of 'boss' is murder to companies. And I am truly sorry about how your HR department responded.

My company places some physical demands on our engineers. It includes things like climbing ladders while carrying up tool bags, taking test cuts in building systems using hand tools, and riding swing stages on 10-20 story buildings. We have not had many women engineers on our staff, but the ones we have had learned and performed these duties just as well as the guys. We do not have much of a hierarchy either, so no real way for an employee to convince another they can help them advance -- or get their careers stalled -- based on certain favors, or through intimidation. I guess that is one of the benefits in having a small company; the scenarios that lead to harassment and/ or sexual harassment are not really present.

In fact, the only sexual misconduct/ harassment we have ever had there was a frisky admin woman who apparently did not have many boundaries in her marriage, and would overtly chase after one of the single men. It was mutually agreed that she needed to seek employment elsewhere. That was 20 years ago, when guys typically would not speak up about being harassed.


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## orangehero

https://t.e2ma.net/webview/c7su0d/e0f697f56408317913fc0ffa79551e3c


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## Keith Sinclair

Chef Doom said:


> Acting like adults historically has been a useless endeavor. That is why laws and religion was created in the first.



Some truth in that. Laws have to work look at Singapore, clean city, low crime, multinational population living together. It gets a bad rap, but who are we to judge. National Geographic listed it as one of the places where people are happiest. When I visited it reminded me of Hawaii, Same trees, many nationalities. With a large population in a small area they could care less if you can't chew gum. Stepping, sitting on, accidental touching some ones discarded gum is no fun. 

There are many great things about Hawaii, we do have per capa the worst homeless population. Quite a few are Crystal Meth addicts or Alcoholics. Some are mentally ill. Meth is the leading cause of property crime here. Also have plenty Lawyer ads on TV in the sue em blame game.


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## Chef Doom

WildBoar said:


> Is treating people like crap the same thing as sexually harassing them?


If a man wishes to treat a woman like crap in the workplace he will need to find non sexual points of reference to do so which will be challenging. You could try

"I could get a zombie to do your job and get better results!"


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## Chef Doom

keithsaltydog said:


> Some truth in that. Laws have to work look at Singapore, clean city, low crime, multinational population living together. It gets a bad rap, but who are we to judge. National Geographic listed it as one of the places where people are happiest. When I visited it reminded me of Hawaii, Same trees, many nationalities. With a large population in a small area they could care less if you can't chew gum. Stepping, sitting on, accidental touching some ones discarded gum is no fun.
> 
> There are many great things about Hawaii, we do have per capa the worst homeless population. Quite a few are Crystal Meth addicts or Alcoholics. Some are mentally ill. Meth is the leading cause of property crime here. Also have plenty Lawyer ads on TV in the sue em blame game.


Funny thing is in America if you banned chewing gum people would claim you were taking away their rights, there would be science opinion articles warning of the coming bad breath apocalypse, and National Chewing Gum Day would become a thing.


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## Chef Doom

keithsaltydog said:


> There are many great things about Hawaii, we do have per capa the worst homeless population. Quite a few are Crystal Meth addicts or Alcoholics. Some are mentally ill. Meth is the leading cause of property crime here. Also have plenty Lawyer ads on TV in the sue em blame game.



Don't worry, you are one good tsunami and typhoon away from having your homeless and meth problem solved. Yes many taxpayers will suffer but egg free omelettes just don't taste as good.


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## panda

chef doom needs to start a blog, keep these hilarious posts coming!


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## JayGee

Chef Doom said:


> Oh, Yeah, Yeah, Ken M, that's me. :biggrin:




https://www.reddit.com/r/KenM/


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## Keith Sinclair

panda said:


> chef doom needs to start a blog, keep these hilarious posts coming!


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## labor of love

Tom Colicchio has been following this thread and he finally decided to chime in.
https://medium.com/@tcolicchio/an-open-letter-to-male-chefs-742ca722e8f2


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## Chef Doom

JayGee said:


> https://www.reddit.com/r/KenM/



Hahaha, I wish that was me. Those posts of his are outstanding. The definition of entertaining. I will be following this thread from time to time. 

For the record, I thought you were referring to Ken Masters from Street Fighter at first. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Marek07

labor of love said:


> Tom Colicchio has been following this thread and he finally decided to chime in.
> https://medium.com/@tcolicchio/an-open-letter-to-male-chefs-742ca722e8f2


Tom Colicchio was unknown to me but his letter has changed that. Great read. Thanks for the link labor.


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## labor of love

I dont really follow TV cooking shows anymore but he was the judge for top chef. Colicchio is a very good chef IMO, I enjoyed a few of his books. BTW Im not really on board with everything he has to say but felt like sharing it anyway.
His cameo in treme was fantastic. Everybody with HBO access should check it out.


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## orangehero

So no more dick jokes, don't you dare think about anyone besides how beautiful their mind, soul and personality are, and back of house should be as clean, quiet, and austere as tea time in the drawing room in the Victorian era. Cmon just get serious back of house, grow up, as long as the food is good that will be an awesome and empowering environment for everyone. Very enlightening and pragmatic perspective.


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## Chef Doom

labor of love said:


> Tom Colicchio has been following this thread and he finally decided to chime in.
> https://medium.com/@tcolicchio/an-open-letter-to-male-chefs-742ca722e8f2


I don't believe in medical castration. That is cheating. We doing it old fashion.

All future male chefs will need to make sweet love to your wives with the daily provided sausage or produce of choice. We will be keeping your manhood in a special freezer section in order to provide appropriate sizes.


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## tripleq

Don't like the guy much as a TV personality but he has an interesting point of view. Not sure what to call it. ColicchioVision?


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## Paraffin

labor of love said:


> Tom Colicchio has been following this thread and he finally decided to chime in.
> https://medium.com/@tcolicchio/an-open-letter-to-male-chefs-742ca722e8f2



Yep, and that can be summed up with the quote from that article "Real men dont need to be told this." 

At least once you've reached enough years to build up the life experience, or unless you're just impervious to understanding the opposite sex. Some guys just never grow up.


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## panda

all i can think of when i see colicchio is butterbean


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## Chef Doom

panda said:


> all i can think of when i see colicchio is butterbean



Whirling pots and pans with a frenzy while he keeps his head down in some oversized boxing shorts hahahaha.


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## tripleq

panda said:


> all i can think of when i see colicchio is butterbean



Come on. Collicchio isnt THAT famous.


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## Marek07

Just to keep this thread alive...

Geraldine DeRuiter wrote a very clever (IMO) response to Mario Batali while making his recipe for cinnamon rolls which he felt compelled to post at the bottom of his apology email. 
Read it here: https://medium.com/@everywhereist/i...sexual-misconduct-apology-letter-ef927659cab6


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## Matus

That is a very well written article, thanks for linking it.


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## Chef Doom

They are going after my main brudda from India Aziz Ansari! The world is coming to an end people. The gauntlet has been thrown. There is no going back.


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## labor of love

Chef Doom said:


> They are going after my main brudda from India Aziz Ansari! The world is coming to an end people. The gauntlet has been thrown. There is no going back.



I cracked a smile when I read about that one. I always thought he was douchey.


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## panda

he tried to make curry stuffed taco pies?


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## Chef Doom

Lol most comedians are jerks, twisted, or semi sociopaths. It's how they come up with all of those great stories.


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## panda

what if i'm all of the above?


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## Chef Doom

panda said:


> what if i'm all of the above?


Jhonny Depp. Or Little Richard


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## Chef Doom

panda said:


> what if i'm all of the above?


Rick James? Is that you? I knew it was a hoax.


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## panda

[video=youtube;IIiHdXwoGp4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIiHdXwoGp4[/video]


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## Khorax

Didn't Gordon Ramsay build his empire on verbally harassing employees and customers? Why is he still king of the hill in this witch hunt? Isn't verbal abuse in a position of power as damaging to a person as sexual misconduct?


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## Chef Doom

Actually no it isnt the same. As long as your insults is not sexually charged and no attempts at initiating a sexuzl encounter are made someone like Ramsey would be in the clear.


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## OliverNuther

Oddly enough if he verbally harangued the person to the point where they broke down in tears if he then relented and gave them a hug by way of comfort and apology he could potentially be in more trouble for the hug than the verbal barrage.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@Chef Doom some media are using Aziz as a counterexample, and as an example for the need for more discussion and less kneejerk judgement. About time.


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## Bill13

Totally agree, once I read the about the Aziz case, I was thinking this is getting out of control, much like it has been on college campuses.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

What is being fought: Behaviours that involve circumventing legal checks and balances by taking advantage of social structures.
How it is being fought: Behaviours that involve circumventing legal checks and balances by taking advantage of social structures.


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## Khorax

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> What is being fought: Behaviours that involve circumventing legal checks and balances by taking advantage of social structures.
> How it is being fought: Behaviours that involve circumventing legal checks and balances by taking advantage of social structures.



+1


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