# Thinning?



## jai (Jan 4, 2014)

Hey guys I just recieved a mario gyuto and it one of the older ones I think it doesent have a makers mark and its quite a work horse not like the thinner ones hes making now. It feels nice in hand but I also feels slightly heavy but very well balanced. I sharpened it the other day and got it to a nice sharp edge and it enters food nicely and haas very little stiction but it just feel different to my other knives when I cut it doesent feel as sharp even though it should and it is. When I cut with my masamoto ks, kono hd, martell, or tanaka ironwood it feels kind of like it just drops through better without any effort where as this knife takes a bit more effort to cut but it also has little to no stiction and cuts very well it just feels odd. Its alot thicker behind the edge than most of my knives. So my question is should I thin this knife alot or is it just the geometry of the knife and how its meant to feel? I havent taken it into pro kitchen yet and used it alot so ill probly do that first. What do you guys think. Sorry if I explained it weirdly. Here is a choil shot sorry for the phone pics




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## Chuckles (Jan 4, 2014)

First of all. What is that handle made out of that you got a reflection like that?

Mario's pre makers mark blades carry a lot of convexity all the way to the tip. I think a lot of other knives flatten out in the tip area because sticking is naturally decreased due to a reduced blade height. As a result I have found the pre makers mark knives to be biased to pull cutting. This point was illustrated well lately when myself and another forum member were testing a wide range of knives on butternut squash dice. With ever other knife he used a push cut exlusively. When he switched to the pre makers mark Mario he switched to a pull cut almost immediatly without making a deliberate decision to do so, it just naturally happened. I am naturally inclined to default to a pull cut and even my vertical cuts on onion dice and jullienne onion has a bit of a pull to it so it is an ideal knife for me. It has a lot of character and as you stated the release is amazing but it does not have the universal broad range market appeal that his current grind offers. 

I will also say that my pre makers mark Mario gyuto is my favorite knife. But I never use it at home. When going slow and really making love to the cuts it does not shine. At work with a deadline and a mountain of prep I have never reached for anything else. At speed it is the most predictable knife I have ever used. So take it to work and give it a try when you are behind. Or just pretend you are Salty and cut like him, that knife is really good for that style. 

When you thin it make sure you are on your A game because it is going to change the look of the knife from a show piece to a work knife if you aren't adept at mirror polishing. I have thinned mine and it didn't take as much thinning as you might think to get it to cut better. 

And if you still don't like it. Please let me be the first to know.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 4, 2014)

I would just thin behind the edge a little wt. regular sharpening.Esp. since you already have thinner gyuto's.I have a few thicker J-carbon knives,since they are so sharp,cutting is not a problem.Also much less stiction.For some prep jobs a thicker blade is better as long as the grind is good.Lazors are also good for diff. types of jobs.Good to have both


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## Benuser (Jan 4, 2014)

Keithsaltydog is absolutely right. Enjoy the complimentarity of the different blades. That being said, thinning behind the edge will certainly increase performance without altering the fundamental geometry.


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## jai (Jan 4, 2014)

When I got the knife the blade face was very scratched up from thinning and I refinished the whole blade face so im not worried about that I occasionally do it to all my knifes. Also thanks for the wise words and ill have to try it at work like I said I really like it but it feels different.


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## jai (Jan 4, 2014)

Also the wood is natural amboynia and when I got it it was coated in true oil which made it look cheap and horrible so I sanded it feomm 400-1200 and really hand buffed some boardsmith boardwax into it about 3 times and I got a real natural shine to it


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 5, 2014)

To me the grind looks good on that blade.Now you have the handle looking better,should be a go to work horse knife.:viking:


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## marc4pt0 (Jan 5, 2014)

What Chuckles said above is pretty much on point in regards to Mario's grind and style of knife. It does cut a bit different than most. Him and I were discussing this about a month ago when he compared it to a sports car. As in they are built for speed and meant to go fast. If you're not a real fast cutter, the knife might not perform as well as others for you personally. After he mentioned that I went back to work with that in mind, and sure enough Chuckles was right on point. You speed up and that Mario is at its best. (I'm not insinuating you're a slow cutter by any means here. I'm using a more universal all encompassing "you" here)

Also, Jai, I'd like to see some more pics of your Mario if you'd be so inclined.


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## brainsausage (Jan 5, 2014)

+1 to more pics, and the speed cutting comments. My Masamoto KS and Shig were/are excellent at julienning an onion in under 5 seconds. The Itonomonn kurouchi, and ITK not so much. All great knives to some degree or another just better at some tasks than others. It does look like it could be thinner behind the edge though, IMO.


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## jai (Jan 5, 2014)

Ill get some more pics this arvo and I think I can cut fast enough. Ill post a link to vids I have on youtube. They arent of the mario but it should show some speed.


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## jai (Jan 5, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzv-F4SesO0&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## jai (Jan 5, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRPpHo1I36k


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## mhlee (Jan 5, 2014)

I was the original owner of this knife and owned this knife for over a year. Most of the comments here are speculation based on other of Mario's earlier knives, and they're not consistent with my experience.

This knife was a very good performer overall; although it's not a laser, it cut very well in many types of cuts, especially push cutting toward the heel. Fast or slow, it performed very well. 

Initially, I actually found pull cutting to be the worst, especially toward the tip, and horizontal cutting through the tip because of the profile of the edge along the tip as it was essentially flat and almost bird's beaked. But, I reshaped the tip so that it had a slight curve and it performed much better. Nonetheless, that's relatively speaking - the knife performed well all around; the best performance quality of this knife was the food release.

When I sold it, it needed just a little thinning - the knife was sharpened only about 5 times by me, Jon and, IIRC, tk59. The CPM154 is hard; it loses its freshly sharpened feel very quickly, but keeps 80-90% of its sharpness for a long time. 

Here are my original comments to Mario in February 2012 after I used this knife for a bit and gave this knife its first big workout:

I'll start off with my criticisms since they're few. I go back and forth on the tip. Sometimes it works great, other times it's a little troublesome. It seems like you really have to work to get the right angle, or right follow through with the point on the board to make sure you cut through everything with the tip. I think it needs to be rounded just a touch - and I mean "just a touch" so that it's not flat, but just very slightly rounded. I think the natural draw through motion of using the tip will allow a person to get full use of the entire length of the tip when you do this. I noticed when I was going through onions, I had to make sure I made full contact with the board with the tip to ensure that I went through the entire onion. Second, and I haven't had any knife really do great on carrots, but the knife seems to have some steering and wedging issues with hard carrots. That, to me, is the holy grail of tests. I haven't owned or tried a knife yet that goes through carrots very well.

On to the positives. I think the geometry is very good. In fact, as I chopped onions, doing horizontal slices and then vertical slices, I noticed how easily it went through the onions. It was a breeze to get through six onions quickly. Celery and bell peppers were easy to cut. I cut the bell peppers skin side down and did a small chop quickly and efficiently. Onions stuck the most to the knife, but I think that was a product of the onions being very moist. Other than that, I got through the vegetables extremely quickly. Also, I've been fooling around with various grips on the knife and it's become easier and easier to use. I don't think the handle is too large now. I'm also really enjoying that amboyna wood. That is a winner.

With respect to chicken, this is where the tip seemed to really do its best work. Because it's almost a straight point, when boning the chicken, it was very easy to cut - the knife cut where you put it. A finer edge would have made the cutting easier, although possibly sacrificing feel, but it still did a great job.

I think the one thing that most surprises me about the knife everytime I use it is how easy it is to use. The balance is extremely good, and for an over 240 mm blade, it doesn't feel that big, even though it's more substantial than other knives I've used.

I'm not sure how to improve the grind, but I think that, and the edge along the tip, are the only things that need to be worked on performance wise. But, I think going forward, the changes you may want to make are minor. It's a very good performing knife - better than other knives that are more expensive in my opinion. I did notice that my knife came with a few scratches on it. But this, again, is minor. The edge also seems to be holding up well.

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My comments of cutting above were based mostly on push and slight rock chopping, and some pull cutting. 

I also want to clarify a few things. This knife isn't in the condition that Mario made it/that I purchased it, or the condition that I sold it, and, based on the comments of the current owner, it's likely not performing the way it was when I had it. Based on the scratches on blade face of the knife, and the comments about performance, the geometry of the knife has very likely been changed. I want that to be clear so that there are no assumptions that this knife currently is how Mario's knives are. 

In my experience, thinning, per se, doesn't necessarily improve performance; _*proper*_ thinning does. Also, proper edge shape makes a big difference in how a knife performs, especially in how a knife feels when it first goes into food. 

Also, the handle was oiled by someone besides Mario or me -- natural amboyna doesn't need to be oiled -- to be clear that Mario did not sell the handle that way. 

And, now that I've used a lot more knives, I can say that when I had it, it performed much better than a Masamoto KS (I've owned one and would choose this knife over a KS any day of the week as it was a better cutter than the KS I owned), but may not cut as well as a Kono HD, but will have MUCH better food release.


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## brainsausage (Jan 5, 2014)

The KS is highly overrated IMO, I just used that (and the other knives) as examples that many on this forum are familiar with. No offense to anyone who's a fan of the KS just not my cuppa. Neither was the ITK, so that makes me an outcast I guess...


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## jai (Jan 5, 2014)

I resharpened it at a higher angle and set a bit more of a bevel in the knife and it performs alot better than before I agree with the comments above about how it performs. The food release is amazing you notice it more when you switch back to other knives. Ill add more information when I used it at work as using a knife at home for me isnt a good enough test. I dont push myself at home because time isnt a factor. Thanks for the constructive critisicm. Just to recap after I put a more aggressive angle on the edge it cuts alot better it enters food better. All my other gyutos are more laseresque so I put a very steep edge and I find it best.


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## jai (Jan 5, 2014)

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## jai (Jan 5, 2014)

all these pictures are before I sharpened it and after I polished all scratch marks out of the blade and took the true oil off.


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## Chuckles (Jan 6, 2014)

Mhlee - fantastic post, thanks for sharing.

Our differing reactions for how to incorporate this geometry and profile into our own cutting styles seems the epitome of 'different strokes for different folks'. I mean this in the best possible way.



> I think the geometry is very good.



I certainly agree with that. 


Jai - It seems clear that you know what you are doing. Both for maintaining and using a nice knife. I would be very interested to hear an update after you have spent more time with the knife. It really looks great.


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## panda (Jan 8, 2014)

i find that with a fat spine knife, thinning is an on going thing. i thin my kochi every sharpening session. when you think you've thinned enough, you're just going to find out that you need to keep thinning a week later. so the geometry changes every single time, which is cool and strange at the same time, haha. some weeks i love it, other weeks i'm like what da?? 

sometimes i'll thin very high up, other times only half an inch up from the edge and anywhere in between. it leads to changes in convexity as well.


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## jai (Jan 13, 2014)

Ok guys so after thinning it twice it cuts like a dream it finally took a great edge after the second thinning and still cuts well with no stiction. Really enjoying this knife and happy with the grind. I honestly just think it had a tad to much steel behind the edge so it was causing it it wedge and do horrid stuff. Thanks for all the helpful advice and information. Im sure this knife has been sharpend alot so it was most likely just the case.


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