# Overrated Foods...



## cotedupy

I made a glib (but entirely accurate) comment on another thread recently noting that raw tomatoes are pretty unpleasant, and was met with considerable opprobrium. Which got me to thinking about other foodstuffs that are wildly overrated by the population at large. There's very little I would point-blank refuse to eat, but here are some items that are unlikely to be darkening my dinner table any time soon:

Burrata - Pointlessly doubling down on already tasteless Mozzarella by stuffing it with tasteless cream.

Aubergine/Eggplant - How on earth are you meant to cook it?! Even a passing acquaintance with a heat source turns it instantly into snotty mush.

Scallops - Just taste of sugar. Facile.

Roast Lamb - Easily the worst type of roast meat, especially when served rare.

White Pizza - Is not pizza.

Fish Sauce - Are we quite sure this isn't an elaborate joke that SE Asia is playing on the rest of us? (See also - Vietnamese Mint).

Sausages - Meat rationing stopped almost 70 years ago. And you're still eating sausages.

Truffles - If I want to spend all my money on something that tastes disgusting, and then regret it the next day... I will buy cocaine.

Sweet Potatoes - I'm not sure I know anyone who openly admits to liking these. But there must be people out there, judging by how often one gets ambushed by them on a menu.

Oysters - I don't mind the occasional oyster, but _oysters_ _plural_ is a tad masochistic.

Blueberries - Blueberries are just f***ing weird. Why does each one taste completely different? They must make them in a factory. Get a pack of Skittles if you don’t have the attention span for normal fruit.

Avocado - Inexplicable.


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## ian

I love it. You’ll make a really great cranky old man someday. 

I’m not a huge fan of scallops either tho. Kinda boring.


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## JDC

Truffle oil tastes better than truffles, maybe I'm too cheap.


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## IsoJ

Wrong thread . Agree on the scallops, too bland


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## WiriWiri

Fish and chips. Needs copious amounts of salt and vinegar to be slightly more interesting, which is never a great recommendation, Meh, there‘s a reason why fried chicken, curries and spice have increasingly taken over, no matter how much ageing Brits complain

Can be alright if done well, and admittedly can taste just right when consumed on the seafront, but often suffers disappointing ‘Sangria‘ syndrome on most occasions, a big bland plate of soggy grease replacing the romantic image. There‘s a reason why most nations don’t take their best fish and encase it in a big chunk of batter before deep frying everything, accompaniments and all.

And enough with the hokey cokey ‘it was better in my day’ and ridiculous trainspotter-style praise for the occasional shop that consistently fries fish well. There is no mystery to maintaining a couple of deep fat fryers at the correct temps and having a half decent batter recipe. People just can’t be bothered, because fish and chips is boring at heart,.


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## cotedupy

WiriWiri said:


> Fish and chips. Needs copious amounts of salt and vinegar to be slightly more interesting, which is never a great recommendation, Meh, there‘s a reason why fried chicken, curries and spice have increasingly taken over, no matter how much ageing Brits complain
> 
> Can be alright if done well, and admittedly can taste just right when consumed on the seafront, but often suffers disappointing ‘Sangria‘ syndrome on most occasions, a big bland plate of soggy grease replacing the romantic image. There‘s a reason why most nations don’t take their best fish and encase it in a big chunk of batter before deep frying everything, accompaniments and all.
> 
> And enough with the hokey cokey ‘it was better in my day’ and ridiculous trainspotter-style praise for the occasional shop that consistently fries fish well. There is no mystery to maintaining a couple of deep fat fryers at the correct temps and having a half decent batter recipe. People just can’t be bothered, because fish and chips is boring at heart,.



Agreed. Burrata and Avocado are very much in this camp too... things that are only remotely acceptable when drowned in salt/lemon/vinegar/chilli/tartare sauce*/posh olive oil, and eaten on the beach / Tuscany.


* Though frankly I have my doubts about tartare sauce too.


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## coxhaus

I say ricotta cheese. A little bit goes a long way. If you add a lot, I won't eat it as the ricotta cheese over powers everything and all I taste is ricotta cheese.


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## ian

Yea, all the ricotta I can find in grocery stores around here is completely terrible. Now if you make some from milk, that’s a different story.


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## spaceconvoy

Maybe you don't appreciate food textures as much as flavor... scallops and guacamole can be wonderful if done right. Eggplant can good in eggplant parmesan, but it's mostly a vehicle for fried oil, and it takes arduous preparation for it to not turn into mush. My grandma could do it, but my mom can't with the same recipe. 

White pizza is definitely pizza, because pizza is an artificial construct created by humans. Now white chocolate, that's some overrated bull**** and it should be illegal to have the word 'chocolate' in the name. It's just flavorless fudge.


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## Lars

This thread is making me hungry..


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## Mikeadunne

spaceconvoy said:


> Maybe you don't appreciate food textures as much as flavor... scallops and guacamole can be wonderful if done right. Eggplant can good in eggplant parmesan, but it's mostly a vehicle for fried oil, and it takes arduous preparation for it to not turn into mush. My grandma could do it, but my mom can't with the same recipe.
> 
> White pizza is definitely pizza, because pizza is an artificial construct created by humans. Now white chocolate, that's some overrated bull**** and it should be illegal to have the word 'chocolate' in the name. It's just flavorless fudge.


white chocolate is an abomination.


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## coxhaus

Yes, dark chocolate all the way.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Mikeadunne said:


> white chocolate is an abomination.



As are sweet... ugh...pickles. 

They shouldn't be legally allowed to be called pickles.


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## Knivperson

cotedupy said:


> Truffles - If I want to spend all my money on something that tastes disgusting, and then regret it the next day... I will buy cocaine.


Accurate description.


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## Knivperson

Lobster - just a slightly sweeter more expensive version of a shrimp.

Poke bowls - It's just a lazy way of doing sushi, isn't it? "**** this ****, let's just throw it all in a bowl and call it something else".

Bubble tea -First, it's not really bubbles - they aren't hollow. Guess the name "tea balls" had too many associations with tea bagging?

Guanciale - Expensive lump of fat...


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## tcmx3

cotedupy said:


> wildly overrated by the population at large.



Chicfila sandwich
Popeyes Chicken Sandwich
Chipotle
Bacon (I get it, bacon is good, it doesnt have to be your religion sheesh)
Little Caesar's (the fact that it exists means people buy any amount of it, which is too much)


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## chefwp

cotedupy said:


> Fish Sauce - Are we quite sure this isn't an elaborate joke that SE Asia is playing on the rest of us? (See also - Vietnamese Mint).


If it made food taste the way it smells in the bottle, I'd totally agree with you. But take left over beef and slice it thin, add copious amounts of torn herbs from the mint family, shallot, and then add a dressing made of fish sauce and lime juice and it will transform the ingredients into one of the most delightful things you've ever put in your mouth! That is just one example of this amazingly transformative condiment. If you say you also hate most Thai and Vietnamese food, then I give you a pass, we all have subjective likes and dislikes, but if you love Thai and Vietnamese food in general, then I think you don't understand how to use fish sauce properly.

btw, I'm with you on sweet potatoes, but we are clearly in the minority I think.


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## BillHanna

Why eat an apple when pears exist?


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## Knivperson

cotedupy said:


> Sweet Potatoes - I'm not sure I know anyone who openly admits to liking these. But there must be people out there, judging by how often one gets ambushed by them on a menu.


"...served with our homemade sweet potato fries".... <- burger meal ruined...


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## BillHanna

Sweet potatoes- good
Sweet potato FRIES- terrible


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## Knivperson

Only sweet potatoes I liked was raw ones in an acidic salad. Baked ones are terrible - waaay to sweet IMO.


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## Patinated

Knivperson said:


> Only sweet potatoes I liked was raw ones in an acidic salad. Baked ones are terrible - waaay to sweet IMO.


Didnt even know you can have sweet potato raw


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## tcmx3

BillHanna said:


> Why eat an apple when pears exist?



what apple?

the really nice apples are just as good as a good pear. most apples are terrible, I will agree, and if my choice were a Red Delicious and starving to death, well you all can call dibs on my knives and stones.


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## BillHanna

tcmx3 said:


> really nice apples are just as good as a good pear


Exactly. I couldn't bear to be separated from my good pear for your really nice apple. I'm not strong enough.


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## rmrf

Crabs and lobsters. If I wanted to eat a spider or cockroach I would get a hot dog and save the money.

Shrimp paste >> shrimp. 

Apples are very location dependent and variety dependent. Pink lady and honeycrisp are overrated, mac is underrated.

Yams, sweet potato, and cooked carrots. If you want to eat dessert, just eat dessert.

Mayo. Why. If you want to eat oil, just drink it. Or use butter! Butter is delicious. If I want to add fat into a sandwich, use butter or pick a fatty meat or use cheese. Thousand island and ranch ruins sandwiches almost as bad as soaking a baguette in liquid before eating it. If you want soggy bread, use a hot dog bun or a bao. 

Eggplant works great with a wok burner or purposely cooking it so it becomes snot like in baba ganoush. Deep frying it is like eating an oil soaked sponge.


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## icanhaschzbrgr

Hands off buratta! Before you judge it go to Italy and taste a real thing. Same holds true for mozzarella.

The really overrated thing is caviar.


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## Knivperson

All food is overrated. Just eat oat meal and get on with your life. Soon earth will be swallowed be the sun anyway. Or the planet will become uninhabitable.

Good night from scandinavia.


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## cawilson6072

I have a thing against all types of potato pancakes, latkes, raggmunk, etc. You can about deep fry them, but they have actually become a euphemism in our home for things that sound easy but almost never work out as planned. Boxtie get a pass, sort of since they're much more bread-y.


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## cawilson6072

Knivperson said:


> All food is overrated. Just eat oat meal and get on with your life. Soon earth will be swallowed be the sun anyway. Or the planet will become uninhabitable.
> 
> Good night from scandinavia.



Totally! I can about go on indefinitely with a rotating cast of spiced up sweet or savory hot cereals. Food prep is more of a hobby and I find that I share myself best by creating things for people. For me - bring on the oats and grains. Exception - butchering AND eating fish are my jam.


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## Ochazuke

Please make nasu dengaku using chinese or japanese eggplants. I agree about the opinions regarding large western eggplants, but a good nasu dengaku with good eggplant is fabulous. 

Also, well over 90% of scallops I see are the frozen, sorta bland things that I agree I'd rather not eat. The majority are soaked in a sort of weird solution to keep them white and add water weight. For those of us living near a good seafood town, if you buy what's called "dry scallops" you'll have a life altering experience. "Dry" is the industry term for scallops that are processed without the phosphate solution. If you get them fresh and dry, slice them raw, sprinkle just a small amount of good quality salt or marudaizu shoyu, and eat them as is you will likely change your opinions on scallops.


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## BillHanna

rmrf said:


> Thousand island and ranch


 are for children.


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## parbaked

Expensive Cantonese delicacies e.g. shark fin, bird’s nest, sea cucumber, braised abalone all suck…as do mooncake.

I love live scallops, abalone and crab….


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## zizirex

Avocado Toast,

Avocado on top of Salad,

Avocado on Sushi,

Avocado on any TikTok recipe.

Dalgona Coffee,

IN N OUT Burger,

Quinoa,

Infused Water.

More lists to come.


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## tomsch

Chick-Fill-A. My wife loves them I can't even imagine a more s$itty chicken sandwich. In and out burgers are OK but their freshly made fries are terrible. How in the world can you literally slice up fresh potatoes and mess them up that badly???


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## captaincaed

BillHanna said:


> are for children.


Adults eat O&V or blue cheese. Or Goddess.


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## DitmasPork

cotedupy said:


> I made a glib (but entirely accurate) comment on another thread recently noting that raw tomatoes are pretty unpleasant, and was met with considerable opprobrium. Which got me to thinking about other foodstuffs that are wildly overrated by the population at large. There's very little I would point-blank refuse to eat, but here are some items that are unlikely to be darkening my dinner table any time soon:
> 
> Burrata - Pointlessly doubling down on already tasteless Mozzarella by stuffing it with tasteless cream.
> 
> Aubergine/Eggplant - How on earth are you meant to cook it?! Even a passing acquaintance with a heat source turns it instantly into snotty mush.
> 
> Scallops - Just taste of sugar. Facile.
> 
> Roast Lamb - Easily the worst type of roast meat, especially when served rare.
> 
> White Pizza - Is not pizza.
> 
> Fish Sauce - Are we quite sure this isn't an elaborate joke that SE Asia is playing on the rest of us? (See also - Vietnamese Mint).
> 
> Sausages - Meat rationing stopped almost 70 years ago. And you're still eating sausages.
> 
> Truffles - If I want to spend all my money on something that tastes disgusting, and then regret it the next day... I will buy cocaine.
> 
> Sweet Potatoes - I'm not sure I know anyone who openly admits to liking these. But there must be people out there, judging by how often one gets ambushed by them on a menu.
> 
> Oysters - I don't mind the occasional oyster, but _oysters_ _plural_ is a tad masochistic.
> 
> Blueberries - Blueberries are just f***ing weird. Why does each one taste completely different? They must make them in a factory. Get a pack of Skittles if you don’t have the attention span for normal fruit.
> 
> Avocado - Inexplicable.



Beyond Meat, Impossible Burger, Ingogmeato, Quorn—all dreadful stuff. I cook a lot of vegetarian meals, but really abhor the fake meats, mainly for its taste, textures, etc.


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## coxhaus

I like good fresh Avocado but I don't eat that bagged avocado. I need really fresh but we have lots of it.


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## zizirex

Avocado is probably Mexico's largest export close enough to Cocaine.


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## Rangen

Lobster roll. Take a delicate, delicious seafood. Now put it inside some folded Wonder bread. And it's not even against the law.

Cold pasta salad. If there is a way to make this not disgusting, I don't know it.

Blue cheese. It tastes rotted because it is rotted. I do like to have tiny bites of it about every 8 months. Maybe rot is a nutrient.

Steamer clams. They make me hate the sea itself.


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## WildBoar

fish, mollusks, beets and asparagus. They are the Devil's spawn.


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## Bodine

Liver, I eat most anything else, especially sea food of all types. As far as scallops go, I harvest my own bay scallops every year. Smaller and sweeter than the deep water variety, love them in cevichi as well as sauteed.


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## daveb

You gentlemen are missing something here. While I agree with a lot of the sentiment, the common denominator among eggplant, scallops, white pizza, avocados, shrimp, etc, is that they are all chick food - helping old, fat guys that can cook find romance.

Ya'll must be too married.....


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## M1k3

zizirex said:


> Avocado is probably Mexico's largest export close enough to Cocaine.


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## ian

captaincaed said:


> Or Goddess.



That some west coast bull**** right there.


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## WildBoar

daveb said:


> You gentlemen are missing something here. While I agree with a lot of the sentiment, the common denominator among eggplant, scallops, white pizza, avocados, shrimp, etc, is that they are all chick food - helping old, fat guys that can cook find romance.


I respectively disagree, as white pizza and eggplant parm are partially responsible for me being a fat guy.


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## cotedupy

WildBoar said:


> I respectively disagree, as white pizza and eggplant parm are partially responsible for me being a fat guy.



Well hopefully you got laid in compensation....?


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## daveb

Make some caponata and she'll drag you off every time.....


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## cotedupy

zizirex said:


> Avocado Toast,
> 
> Avocado on top of Salad,
> 
> Avocado on Sushi,
> 
> Avocado on any TikTok recipe.
> 
> Dalgona Coffee,
> 
> IN N OUT Burger,
> 
> Quinoa,
> 
> Infused Water.
> 
> More lists to come.



^ Some admirably clear-headed, objective, and indisputable opinions on avocado right here folks. ^


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## cotedupy

I would just like to point out, for anyone who doesn't know me yet... my opinions here, as in everything, are _completely 100% correct, infallible, and unarguable._

Burrata and mozzarella also taste of nothing in Italy. Fresh, live scallops, raw or cooked, are still an infantile flavour. Yes aubergine tastes nice if you cover it in grilled cheese, but that's cheating. Though even grilled cheese can't save 'White Pizza', which is always trash; the Neopolitans hold no truck with it, and neither do I.

The only thing I am prepared to concede a small amount of ground on is fish sauce. However it does get massively over-used, and is _very _overbearing when not cooked. Vietnamese mint however is godawful in any quantity or preparation.


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## ian

Amen, brother! Preach the gospel!*







*Enthusiasm for his enthusiasm does not imply endorsement of his message.


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## Rangen

I will agree with "white pizza is always trash" if it is understood that tarte flambee, that magnificent creation, is not white pizza.


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## cotedupy

Rangen said:


> I will agree with "white pizza is always trash" if it is understood that tarte flambee, that magnificent creation, is not white pizza.



An important distinction, certainly! Likewise - the sun-kissed glories of Pissaladiere must also not be tarnished with comparisons to tomato-less 'pizza'.


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## WildBoar

cotedupy said:


> Well hopefully you got laid in compensation....?


White pizza done right is good cheeses and lots of garlic. I like it, my son likes it, my wife doesn't. No getting laid for that one. As far as eggplant parm goes, usually make that one myself so odds are I was compensated a few tomes over the years. I grew up on the dish, and don't mind making/ eating it. That said, chicken parm is better.  


daveb said:


> Make some caponata and she'll drag you off every time.....


Ugh, we had a bad caponata experience a few years back. We worked really hard helping someone market her jarred product over a 3 day event. Part of our compensation was a couple cases of product. After eating some at home we realized why we didn't sell much at the event despite giving out many hundreds of samples. We really, really tried to like it but ultimately dumped almost two cases of what became known as the craponata.

My wife typically makes something that is a close relative, and cans a bit of it in late summer. It is much better.


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## Rangen

I made eggplant parmesan, and was underwhelmed, and I like eggplant. I like it in moussaka. But what I especially like is the less-watery, more flavorful, more densely textured Chinese or Japanese variety, which oozes a wonderful brown syrup, grilled and made into baba ganouj, or, better, into Yu Xiang eggplant.


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## captaincaed

ian said:


> That some west coast bull**** right there.



West coast best coast!


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## McMan

Fried eggs are overrated.
White pizza is generally bogus unless you're in New Haven, in which case it's perfect.
"Plant based" processed food, especially when constructed to look like/taste like meat, is overrated, seen by the fact that it exists at all.


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## pleue

Overrated vs foods I don't like is an interesting one.

Eggplants can't be overrated in my book because a lot of Americans really don't like it because they're **** cooks or have been subjected to **** cooks and cook mostly anglo food. I've had my fair share of acrid unsalted oily grilled eggplant. Imam biyaldi, yaki nasu, cantonese claypot eggplant, brinjal sabzi. There's a lot out there that's delicious if you look a little. Texturally there's a diversity, especially as you get into thai eggplant dishes, but I think it's harder for some folks to get into a different textural appreciation mindset of things people typically describe as unctuous, slippery, slinky, silky, crunchy (in a cartilage type way) where other food cultures revere such textures.

Top of head on my overrated list (though I like examples of all of these)

- Halibut (Why pay so much $ for such an uninteresting flavor and textural experience. If it's cheap, sure it's delicious but it's not worth what people pay for it.)
- Kale as a salad ingredient (texturally I feel like I'm eating a thinly sliced loofa)
- Pork loin, fillet, and lots of other lean meats prone to being tough with little intrinsic flavor
- Most cake icing/frosting
- Nutella (it used to taste like hazelnut)
- Frozen yoghurt
- Bad versions of real expensive/labor intensive ingredients (parmesan, balsamic)
- Most small batch ferments/kraut that cost $14 a pint for a poorly made acrid batch of $.10 cabbage
- Sandwiches made on stupid bread selections (like brioche for burgers)
- Strawberries (Most of what people have access to taste like sweet water)
- Macadamia nuts (I don't get the textural crunch/give thing they have going on, not my jam especially for the cost)
- Natural wine (I'm into it, but typically 2-3 out of 10 I come across are wildly undrinkable)
- IPAs (same as above)
- Jellybeans (the failure rate is way too high at the end, it's just a minefield of trash at the end)
- Flavored coffee and other gnarly milkshake sugar gangbang desserts masquerading as beverages
- Most fried food (mozzarella sticks are 99% awful, a lot are just crunchy trash masquerading as something actually delicious)


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## Luftmensch

M1k3 said:


>




I liked the specific part where it said "Avocados from mexico"


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## Luftmensch

Avolattes






I've cut down to one a week. Too expensive and hipster for me


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## captaincaed

Luftmensch said:


> Avolattes
> 
> View attachment 146184
> 
> 
> I've cut down to one a week. Too expensive and hipster for me



Man I should try this. Would go great with toast...


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## coxhaus

I never thought much about Halibut until I was in Alaska. The Halibut in Alaska is great. I asked an Alaskan and he said they keep all the little ones and export the large ones which don't taste as good.


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## Scooter

Pumpkin spice anything.


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## M1k3

Filet Mignon (yeah, it's tender. And...)


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## coxhaus

M1k3 said:


> Filet Mignon (yeah, it's tender. And...)



I love all steak. A filet mignon only needs a little bacon around it then grill it.


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## M1k3

coxhaus said:


> I love all steak. A filet mignon only needs a little bacon around it then grill it.


What a waste of bacon.


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## lumo

4 years living in Cali, never have I been surrounded by so much.....man F$&K avocados and avocado toast!

macaron, cupcakes, cakes in general underwhelm me, red velvet, icing, krispy kreme...obviously not a sweet tooth, filet mignon, In n Out, chicken or turkey breast


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## zizirex

Ok, let's continue.

Kale
Cold Press Juice
Nut Juice AKA Fake Milk
Fake Meat (Impossible, Beyond Meat Etc.)
King Crab (too expensive with not that tasty meat.)
Spring Mix on top of your meal for an extra $ and less of your carb choice.
Collagen Protein
Any Tenderloin cut.
Chicken Breast or White meat.
Cauliflower Crust Pizza.
Cauliflower Rice.
To be continued..


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## cotedupy

Luftmensch said:


> Avolattes
> 
> View attachment 146184
> 
> 
> I've cut down to one a week. Too expensive and hipster for me



I assume this is a joke...?

If not - Australia really has jumped the shark!


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## cotedupy

pleue said:


> Overrated vs foods I don't like is an interesting one.
> 
> Eggplants can't be overrated in my book because a lot of Americans really don't like it because they're **** cooks or have been subjected to **** cooks and cook mostly anglo food. I've had my fair share of acrid unsalted oily grilled eggplant. Imam biyaldi, yaki nasu, cantonese claypot eggplant, brinjal sabzi. There's a lot out there that's delicious if you look a little. Texturally there's a diversity, especially as you get into thai eggplant dishes, but I think it's harder for some folks to get into a different textural appreciation mindset of things people typically describe as unctuous, slippery, slinky, silky, crunchy (in a cartilage type way) where other food cultures revere such textures.
> 
> Top of head on my overrated list (though I like examples of all of these)
> 
> - Halibut (Why pay so much $ for such an uninteresting flavor and textural experience. If it's cheap, sure it's delicious but it's not worth what people pay for it.)
> - Kale as a salad ingredient (texturally I feel like I'm eating a thinly sliced loofa)
> - Pork loin, fillet, and lots of other lean meats prone to being tough with little intrinsic flavor
> - Most cake icing/frosting
> - Nutella (it used to taste like hazelnut)
> - Frozen yoghurt
> - Bad versions of real expensive/labor intensive ingredients (parmesan, balsamic)
> - Most small batch ferments/kraut that cost $14 a pint for a poorly made acrid batch of $.10 cabbage
> - Sandwiches made on stupid bread selections (like brioche for burgers)
> - Strawberries (Most of what people have access to taste like sweet water)
> - Macadamia nuts (I don't get the textural crunch/give thing they have going on, not my jam especially for the cost)
> - Natural wine (I'm into it, but typically 2-3 out of 10 I come across are wildly undrinkable)
> - IPAs (same as above)
> - Jellybeans (the failure rate is way too high at the end, it's just a minefield of trash at the end)
> - Flavored coffee and other gnarly milkshake sugar gangbang desserts masquerading as beverages
> - Most fried food (mozzarella sticks are 99% awful, a lot are just crunchy trash masquerading as something actually delicious)



Strong list here.

Even as a very big natural wine fan, that failure rate is about what I encounter too I guess. Making natural wine ain't easy, and it requires _a lot _of science!

Pork Loin certainly would have made my list if it wasn't for the unmitigated awfulness of rare roast lamb.

Blueberries are the Jelly Beans of the fruit world - they're a complete crapshoot. Compounded by the fact that people tend to eat them in the morning. Who the f*** wants that much uncertainty and risk as part of breakfast?!


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## tostadas

Any kind of "tasting menu" where I'm still starving when I leave


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## Luftmensch

cotedupy said:


> I assume this is joke...?



Definitely 

A meme from a few years back. Over the past decade, the wealthy and politicians have said something pretty insensitive things about millennials not being able to afford housing in a run-away property boom (as if income levels are growing anywhere near as quickly). To the tune of: "if you cant afford a house, stop having smashed avo on toast" or "get a better job". Some clever cafe posted the avolatte concept on social media as satire.

I like it because it also touches on the culture wars that politicians from rural Australia and the outer suburbs play by alluding to the "latte sipping urban elite"

[Edit: Ironically, although the point is satire, since the avolatte does not actually use any avocado, it is no more than just a latte (or flat white). In fact, the skins used to make the cup of an avolatte are a waste product in cafes and would not add to the cost!]


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## zizirex

oh yeah AVOGATTO.

Avocado ice cream based Affogato


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## Luftmensch

Since I brought up hipster coffee culture... turmeric lattes


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## Apocalypse

Knivperson said:


> Lobster - just a slightly sweeter more expensive version of a shrimp.
> 
> Poke bowls - It's just a lazy way of doing sushi, isn't it? "**** this ****, let's just throw it all in a bowl and call it something else".
> 
> Bubble tea -First, it's not really bubbles - they aren't hollow. Guess the name "tea balls" had too many associations with tea bagging?
> 
> Guanciale - Expensive lump of fat...



I'm offended by all of your choices. Haha


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## cotedupy

Luftmensch said:


> Definitely
> 
> A meme from a few years back. Over the past decade, the wealthy and politicians have said something pretty insensitive things about millennials not being able to afford housing in a run-away property boom (as if income levels are growing anywhere near as quickly). To the tune of: "if you cant afford a house, stop having smashed avo on toast" or "get a better job". Some clever cafe posted the avolatte concept on social media as satire.
> 
> I like it because it also touches on the culture wars that politicians from rural Australia and the outer suburbs play by alluding to the "latte sipping urban elite"
> 
> [Edit: Ironically, although the point is satire, since the avolatte does not actually use any avocado, it is no more than just a latte (or flat white). In fact, the skins used to make the cup of an avolatte are a waste product in cafes and would not add to the cost!]



Ah I remember that, it reminded me of something my mother came out with some time before...

During my childhood (and to this day) my parents only buy the very cheapest 'From Concentrate' orange juice. It is disgusting stuff. You could always tell if friends or family were going to be staying over as a single bottle of 'Freshly Squeezed' would appear in the fridge, _absolutely_ _not to be touched_ until the guests had finished their breakfasts.

About ten years ago she came round to the apartment I was renting at the time, and was suitably impressed and grateful when I offered a glass of special-occasion-not-from-concentrate orange juice. Until I made the mistake of telling her that's just what I normally bought. She looked aghast...

_"Well you'll never get a mortgage if you carry on drinking freshly squeezed the entire time, will you?"_


----------



## Apocalypse

I don't think Caviar is overrated, maybe overpriced.

However I do think think A5 Wagyu is extremely overrated.


----------



## Luftmensch

cotedupy said:


> Ah I remember that, it reminded me of something my mother came out with sometime before...
> 
> During my childhood, and to this day, she only buys the very cheapest 'From Concentrate' orange juice. It is disgusting stuff. You could always tell if friends or family were going to be staying over as a single bottle of 'Freshly Squeezed' would appear in the fridge, _absolutely_ _not to be touched_ until the guests had finished their breakfasts.
> 
> About ten years ago my mother came round to the apartment I was renting at the time, and was suitably impressed and grateful when I gave her a glass of special-occasion-not-from-concentrate orange juice. Until I made the mistake of telling her that's just what I normally bought. She looked aghast...
> 
> _"Well you'll never get a mortgage if you carry on drinking freshly squeezed the entire time, will you?"_



That is a touching family anecdote! There was a generation of people from Europe who endured WWI, WWII and the great depression. There is intergenerational trauma there - people who were affected by rationing and broken supply chains... Or they were raised by parents who were.

One of my parents is a normal consumer. The other is unnecessarily spartan - awfully generous to others and never, _ever_, remotely generous to themselves. A product of that time in history i guess??


----------



## DamageInc

Cheese. Any kind of cheese. People go nuts for it, and I just don't get the appeal. It's stinky trash.

Sushi is overrated.


----------



## Apocalypse

DamageInc said:


> Cheese. Any kind of cheese. People go nuts for it, and I just don't get the appeal. It's stinky trash.
> 
> Sushi is overrated.



You need to try actually good sushi.


----------



## Chips

zizirex said:


> Avocado Toast, *yup*
> 
> Avocado on top of Salad, *yup*
> 
> Avocado on Sushi, *yup*
> 
> Avocado on any TikTok recipe. *yup*
> 
> Dalgona Coffee, *yup*
> 
> IN N OUT Burger, *GTFO*
> 
> Quinoa, *yup*
> 
> Infused Water. *yup*
> 
> More lists to come.


----------



## M1k3

lumo said:


> 4 years living in Cali, never have I been surrounded by so much.....man F$&K avocados and avocado toast!
> 
> macaron, cupcakes, cakes in general underwhelm me, red velvet, icing, krispy kreme...obviously not a sweet tooth, filet mignon, In n Out, chicken or turkey breast


Sprinkles Cupcakes has "ATM's", in case you weren't wondering.


----------



## rickbern

captaincaed said:


> Man I should try this. Would go great with toast...


And you’d probably get lucky with love


----------



## ian

zizirex said:


> IN N OUT Burger,



I think you just haven’t had a _good_ IN N OUT burger. Try making it yourself instead of getting the crappy store bought stuff


----------



## LostHighway

Fruit or vegetables in beer, however, there is an important exception. Properly made fruit lambics, e.g. Drie Fonteinen Oude Kriek or some of the Cantillons, can be great but most of the American attempts are vile (Allagash Coolship beers are IMO the best among the American efforts). Lindemans is also vile.

We shall not speak of "pumpkin" beers or those lost souls who willingly consume them.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Duck.


----------



## Ochazuke

I actually find most fine dining to be overrated. I see an over-reliance on expensive ingredients and a self-indulgence regarding plating that borders on the absurd. While I think instagram has maybe upped the standards of some of the lower end restaurant options (giving more ideas to the uninspired), I also think instagram has turned so much of fine dining in to a visual contest. Plus so many chefs are missing fundamentals. 

I also find most sushi to be overrated (similar to my point about expensive ingredients, but little strength in fundamentals). If I have to endure another "omokase" featuring oh-toro, seared salmon belly, uni with whatever citrus zest, etc, etc... I might just never eat sushi again. Especially when they have no real experience with basics like how to properly store fish, or do a basic curing treatment like with shime saba.


----------



## AT5760

Foie Gras.

Duck = underrated. 

Don't touch my scallops, especially those tiny, delicious bay scallops.


----------



## ian

LostHighway said:


> We shall not speak of "pumpkin" beers or those lost souls who willingly consume them.



Mmmmmm. Got some in my fridge right now!


----------



## tcmx3

cotedupy said:


> About ten years ago my mother came round to the apartment I was renting at the time, and was suitably impressed and grateful when I gave her a glass of special-occasion-not-from-concentrate orange juice. Until I made the mistake of telling her that's just what I normally bought. She looked aghast...
> 
> _"Well you'll never get a mortgage if you carry on drinking freshly squeezed the entire time, will you?"_



ROFL. 

especially because ~10 years ago was the recession.


----------



## chefwp

Bodine said:


> Liver, I eat most anything else


I feel this way particularly about beef liver. I'm not too fond of other livers cooked and served 'whole', but I can get on board with duck liver pâté and other liver-based charcuterie.

Interesting liver-related aside: I grew up thinking I hated venison. My dad usually brought home a deer every year, butchered it, and had a freezer in the basement he kept stocked full of it. My father never cooked, but he convinced my mom to cook him some venison every now and then. She reluctantly agreed, but never once ate it or even tasted it, so it always ended up super well done no matter what. I didn't know until much later that over cooked venison often takes on the taste and texture of beef liver! It turns out that I actually love it cooked properly, go figure. Sometimes I think, "poor dad," but really it is his own fault, he should have cooked it himself...


----------



## chefwp

M1k3 said:


>



" 1,013,687 views" that's a bit disturbing...


----------



## LostHighway

ian said:


> Mmmmmm. Got some in my fridge right now!



You are fortunate as special dispensation is granted to those with young children in the house since this often requires keeping dubious substances on hand to quiet them and satisfy their undeveloped palates. If you have inadvertently or under duress consumed some you are again fortunate that you live in Northern New England as it is written that the consumption of a full case of Moxie within 48 hours can drive out the taint. If you willing consumed some more extreme measures are required involving one or more trips to one of the older cemeteries such as Mount Auburn or the Old Hill Burying Ground with professional help


----------



## ian

LostHighway said:


> You are fortunate as special dispensation is granted to those with young children in the house since this often requires keeping dubious substances on hand to quiet them and satisfy their undeveloped palates. If you have inadvertently or under duress consumed some you are again fortunate that you live in Northern New England as it is written that the consumption of a full case of Moxie within 48 hours can drive out the taint. If you willing consumed some more extreme measures are required involving one or more trips to one of the older cemeteries such as Mount Auburn or the Old Hill Burying Ground with professional help



I'm gonna have pumpkin pie, pumpkin ravioli, pumpkin beer and pumpkin-infused whiskey tonight. ❤


----------



## chefwp

pleue said:


> - IPAs (same as above)


I feel like when IPAs were first introduced to the market, they were interesting and decent, but not better than a well made bohemian-style lager. Suddenly they became all the rage and breweries all seemed to get on board to this type of contest to make beers more hoppy and more bitter than the competition. I could care less except that it caught on and now when you go to a most brewpubs or beer halls, 95% of the draft selections are undrinkable IPA bitter pisswater. It drives me a bit crazy, it's been going on for years too long, and the trend does not seem to be about to abate any time soon.


----------



## AT5760

Shipyard? Or something more exotic?


----------



## chefwp

Luftmensch said:


> I've cut down to one a week. Too expensive and hipster for me


Q: What did the hipster say when they burnt their tongue?
A: Hey man, I got to tell you, I ate pizza before it was cool!


----------



## LostHighway

AT5760 said:


> Shipyard? Or something more exotic?



Shipyard is bad. Bell's Two Hearted is a fairly classic old school US IPA as is Odell's. If you want really old school you have to find one of the English breweries still making traditional IPAs but many of the imported examples simply aren't fresh enough.. Also many British breweries have been corrupted by trying to emulate American styles.


----------



## chefwp

Lobster is a recurring thing in this discussion.
I think it is ok, I would not turn my nose up if you gave me a well prepared lobster dish. Whenever we visit friends in Boston, they insist we cook some lobstah. What I do turn my nose up to is the price and all the hype. It is not the epitome of classy and delicious seafood. I'll take blue crab over lobster any day, but that bias may come from growing up in close proximity to the Chesapeake Bay where blue crab rules.


----------



## AT5760

I meant Shipyard Pumpkinhead. It's the only "seasonal" beer that I drink, mainly for nostalgic reasons. Bell's Two Hearted is a classic and much easier to find since I moved back to the Midwest. I'm not a beer purist, as long as it has some balance and still tastes like beer, I'm willing to give it a shot. Ommegang's Neon Rainbows is one that I've been enjoying lately.


----------



## Rreidiii

We all have likes an dislike for various foods. Whoever said truffle oil is better than the real thing is just buying chemically made fake truffle oil. This was a big deal when chefs learned about Several years ago.
just eat what you like. I like most foods that most detest here, I’m what’s called a super taster which about 25% of the population posses. I even like durian(google it). There are so many people out there watch that food network stuff feel they’re either “Chefs” or foodies that know everything about food. I don’t watch any of that stuff although my wife likes them.
Im not bragging but I feel that I’m a pretty educated and knowledgeable when it comes to food. I don’t know everything about food and never will, I’m a work in progress.
I will say that my credentials should speak for themselves. 30 years in the industry, I’m a certified executive chef, inducted into the American Academy of Chefs and I could go on about my culinary credentials.
Just eat what you like and drink what you like…don’t get me started on wine.
Most who think they are wine experts Can’t tell when you put red food coloring in white wine think they’re drinking a fine red wine. There are so many good $10-$15 wines why fool yourself in thinking a more expensive the wine. Heard of cork taint(TCA).
Rant is over, just eat and drink what you like.


----------



## Logan A.

Shredded Lettuce.
People put it on all types of things to convince themselves that they’re being healthy. In reality it’s bland and there’s a thousand other ways to add textural variety while also adding flavor.


----------



## Rreidiii

zizirex said:


> Avocado is probably Mexico's largest export close enough to Cocaine.


FYI the drug cartels stole property of many avocado growers and make more money on avocados than drugs.


----------



## cotedupy

ian said:


> I think you just haven’t had a _good_ IN N OUT burger. Try making it yourself instead of getting the crappy store bought stuff





Rreidiii said:


> We all have likes an dislike for various foods. Whoever said truffle oil is better than the real thing is just buying chemically made fake truffle oil. This was a big deal when chefs learned about Several years ago.
> just eat what you like. I like most foods that most detest here, I’m what’s called a super taster which about 25% of the population posses. I even like durian(google it). There are so many people out there watch that food network stuff feel they’re either “Chefs” or foodies that know everything about food. I don’t watch any of that stuff although my wife likes them.
> Im not bragging but I feel that I’m a pretty educated and knowledgeable when it comes to food. I don’t know everything about food and never will, I’m a work in progress.
> I will say that my credentials should speak for themselves. 30 years in the industry, I’m a certified executive chef, inducted into the American Academy of Chefs and I could go on about my culinary credentials.
> Just eat what you like and drink what you like…don’t get me started on wine.
> Most who think they are wine experts Can’t tell when you put red food coloring in white wine think they’re drinking a fine red wine. There are so many good $10-$15 wines why fool yourself in thinking a more expensive the wine. Heard of cork taint(TCA).
> Rant is over, just eat and drink what you like.



There _really _aren't that many good $10-$15 wines! Especially not for the people growing the grapes, or the planet. And cork taint is TBA as well.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

ian said:


> I'm gonna have pumpkin pie, pumpkin ravioli, pumpkin beer and pumpkin-infused whiskey tonight. ❤



Well, don't let anyone squash your plans.


----------



## WildBoar

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Well, don't let anyone squash your plans.


You would have to be out of your gourd


----------



## captaincaed

chefwp said:


> " 1,013,687 views" that's a bit disturbing...
> View attachment 146218



Oh, you found my anthem. And my spirit-animal!


----------



## coxhaus

Logan A. said:


> Shredded Lettuce.
> People put it on all types of things to convince themselves that they’re being healthy. In reality it’s bland and there’s a thousand other ways to add textural variety while also adding flavor.



I don't know. When it is a 100 degrees out nice cold iceberg lettuce is nice especially a wedge with blue cheese dressing, bacon, coarse ground black pepper.


----------



## Chunkybananahead

French fries. Admittedly there are a very few versions which taste good 30 seconds out of the oil but after that……. Meh.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

DitmasPork said:


> Beyond Meat, Impossible Burger, Ingogmeato, Quorn—all dreadful stuff. I cook a lot of vegetarian meals, but really abhor the fake meats, mainly for its taste, textures, etc.



Agree, but love Costco Salmon burgers.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> Agree, but love Costco Salmon burgers.


Hmmmm, my mom has them in the freezer—she’s an avid Costco shopper—I’d initially turned my nose up at them, perhaps I’ll give ‘em a try! Cheers.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

lumo said:


> 4 years living in Cali, never have I been surrounded by so much.....man F$&K avocados and avocado toast!
> 
> macaron, cupcakes, cakes in general underwhelm me, red velvet, icing, krispy kreme...obviously not a sweet tooth, filet mignon, In n Out, chicken or turkey breast


 
Folks from Hawaii bring boxes of Krispy Kreme 
Pastry on the the plane from California. Maybe because sugar used to be main industry in Hawaii. That stuff is awful.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> Folks from Hawaii bring boxes of Krispy Kreme
> Pastry on the the plane from California. Maybe because sugar used to be main industry in Hawaii. That stuff is awful.


People in Hawaii do have a sweet tooth. I hate Krispy Kremes, more a malasada guy. My parent’s used to mail my sister cans of SPAM when she was in Arizona. Didn’t make sense, since all SPAM is produced in Austin, MN.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

DitmasPork said:


> Hmmmm, my mom has them in the freezer—she’s an avid Costco shopper—I’d initially turned my nose up at them, perhaps I’ll give ‘em a try! Cheers.



Like with butter browned buns. Grilled onion & mushroom, vine ripe tomato, lettuce. We love our local avocados, scoop with spoon thin slices so don't fall out.


----------



## Scooter

Chunkybananahead said:


> French fries. Admittedly there are a very few versions which taste good 30 seconds out of the oil but after that……. Meh.



Most french fries at restaurants are horrible oily-shredded-cardboard tasting things sometimes with flavorless "beer batter" on them. Strangely accepted by most, it seems. But there are some surprises out there that fry their own fresh and they can be great-tasting, imo.

And, happily, you can always use the junk ones as a vehicle to eat ketchup. (Queue ketchup-haters.)


----------



## Scooter

DitmasPork said:


> People in Hawaii do have a sweet tooth. I hate Krispy Kremes, more a malasada guy. My parent’s used to mail my sister cans of SPAM when she was in Arizona. Didn’t make sense, since all SPAM is produced in Austin, MN.



I think KK is pretty good, especially when fresh. Much better than Duncan and some of the other chains. But I'd much prefer Leonard's malasadas, if only I were on Oahu.


----------



## DitmasPork

Scooter said:


> I think KK is pretty good, especially when fresh. Much better than Duncan and some of the other chains. But I'd much prefer Leonard's malasadas, if only I were on Oahu.



Photographed just now at the shopping center, in Hawaii for the next few weeks. Won’t get malasadas today, about to get a loco moco at Fat Boy’s.


----------



## Scooter

DitmasPork said:


> Photographed just now at the shopping center, in Hawaii for the next few weeks. Won’t get malasadas today, about to get a loco moco at Fat Boy’s.



Aargh, now I'm hungry.


----------



## WaTFTanaki

Caviar on avocado with fish sauce


----------



## Rangen

Scooter said:


> Most french fries at restaurants are horrible oily-shredded-cardboard tasting things sometimes with flavorless "beer batter" on them.



This is a family forum. References to obscenities like french fries with batter on them is discouraged.


----------



## zizirex

Rreidiii said:


> FYI the drug cartels stole property of many avocado growers and make more money on avocados than drugs.


Best money laundry


----------



## spaceconvoy

Keith Sinclair said:


> Folks from Hawaii bring boxes of Krispy Kreme
> Pastry on the the plane from California. Maybe because sugar used to be main industry in Hawaii. That stuff is awful.


I remember when the only Krispy Kreme was on Maui, people would take inter-island flights and buy an extra seat to carry back more donuts. It wasn't totally crazy, at the time you could get $40 tickets if you waited for the right deal. They were so popular at school fund-raisers you could actually make a decent profit.

Way too sweet and overrated to me, I'd take Dunkin everyday


----------



## Luftmensch

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Well, don't let anyone squash your plans.





WildBoar said:


> You would have to be out of your gourd



These puns are heavinely....


----------



## Keith Sinclair

DitmasPork said:


> Photographed just now at the shopping center, in Hawaii for the next few weeks. Won’t get malasadas today, about to get a loco moco at Fat Boy’s.
> View attachment 146239


Passed that today Hawaii Kai shopping center 
We ate at Pioneer Inn backside of Diamond Head. One Shrimp plate, garlic salmon plate, 
Miso Salmon plate. I had panko fried oysters.

Ate at Kapiolani park.

You staying with your parents?


----------



## Michi

Fried Mars bar. The ultimate expression of American excess.


----------



## cotedupy

ian said:


> I think you just haven’t had a _good_ IN N OUT burger. Try making it yourself instead of getting the crappy store bought stuff



Excellent!

Ian has won this thread so far. (With runner-up awards going to the pumpkin/squash puns).


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Like the pleue list & wiri on fish & chips. 
Ian for


----------



## M1k3

Michi said:


> Fried Mars bar. The ultimate expression of American excess.


Yup, nothing more American than deep fried (not very good) English chocolate bars.


----------



## cotedupy

M1k3 said:


> Yup, nothing more American than deep fried (not very good) English chocolate bars.



Ah! More American 'cultural appropriation' I see . Of this classic and timeless _Scottish _dish: Deep-fried Mars bar - Wikipedia

Pairs wonderfully with a couple of pints of Bucky, and a fight.

NB - @Michi


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> Passed that today Hawaii Kai shopping center
> We ate at Pioneer Inn backside of Diamond Head. One Shrimp plate, garlic salmon plate,
> Miso Salmon plate. I had panko fried oysters.
> 
> Ate at Kapiolani park.
> 
> You staying with your parents?


Yeah, staying at parent’s in Hawaii Kai. Putting on weight fast. Gotta exercise!





Where you at?









Good fish here.


----------



## Michi

cotedupy said:


> Of this classic and timeless _Scottish _dish: Deep-fried Mars bar - Wikipedia


I feel enlightened!


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Makes my Scottish heritage cringe. Scots are good at inventing but food forget it.


----------



## zizirex

Keith Sinclair said:


> Makes my Scottish heritage cringe. Scots are good at inventing but food forget it.


I still take Haggis over Shepherd's pie


----------



## Michi

Keith Sinclair said:


> Makes my Scottish heritage cringe. Scots are good at inventing but food forget it.


----------



## WiriWiri

While we’re at Tim Tams are mystifyingly rubbish and unworthy of special attention too. It’s basically a marginally improved ripoff of a Penguin, a thin-coated chocolate sandwich biscuit used a cheap filler for kids lunch boxes back in less enlightened days in the UK. Yet to some Australians it’s a national treasure of sorts, something they’ll go surprisingly great expense to import and trumpet. Grow up chaps and develop a taste for some decent chocolate worth worrying about

See also vegemite, a slightly different version of a yeast byproduct that invokes some weird nationalistic loyalties,


----------



## Keith Sinclair

High up in Paoa valley. Got my favorite nephew
here on his honeymoon with wife from Belarus
It's a land locked country, he has her out learning to surf, she can't stay out of the water.

We were at Hanauma Bay today looking for shade a couple were leaving offered us their
spot. I asked where they were from, the young
lady was from Russia. So the two ladies were
talking in Russian.






Enjoy your time in Hawaii can't stay away from
those loco moko's. Get in the water Bro 



The older generation


----------



## Michi

WiriWiri said:


> See also vegemite, a slightly different version of a yeast byproduct that invokes some weird nationalistic loyalties,


Oi, ya betta watch it, mate! Strewth, blokes around here are gonna be mad as a cut snake and get pretty aggro if ya gab about our tucka like that!


----------



## Luftmensch

Michi said:


> Oi, ya betta watch it, mate! Strewth, blokes around here are gonna be mad as a cut snake and get pretty aggro if ya gab about our tucka like that!



Bloody oath mate!

Fair suck of the sauce bottle. These pommys are flash as a rat with a gold tooth. Having a sook about our biccies? Must have a few roos loose in the top paddock. Obviously never had a proper Ozzie 7 course meal: a pie and a six-pack. If ya still hungry after that, smash a pav. Get all that in ya and you'll be full as a goog. If that doesnt make ya happy as larry, youre telling furfies. Feeling crook in the morning? Chuck a sicky and you'll be sweet. Thats how I built my verandah over the toy shop.

Crikey!


----------



## WiriWiri

Michi said:


> Oi, ya betta watch it, mate! Strewth, blokes around here are gonna be mad as a cut snake and get pretty aggro if ya gab about our tucka like that!









Australians yesterday, getting their budgie smugglers in a twist through their misplaced, jingoistic pride in localised, ripoff versions of other brands,


----------



## Luftmensch

WiriWiri said:


> View attachment 146311
> 
> 
> Australians yesterday, getting their budgie smugglers in a twist through their misplaced, jingoistic pride in localised, ripoff versions of other brands,



Abbott born was born in england


----------



## Michi

Luftmensch said:


> Abbott born was born in england


Good thing, too. I'd hate to think he's Australian…


----------



## WiriWiri

Luftmensch said:


> Abbott born was born in england .



Yeah, well what do you think we use Australia for?

I rue the day when Piers Morgan escaped off his Aus-bound boat, but thankfully we got him to the US eventually


----------



## WiriWiri

Anyway, This isn‘t about insulting Aussies and their rubbish food brands, I’m more equal opportunies and woke than that,

US sweets, sorry candy, are/is mainly rubbish too. I was a massive hip hop fan as a kid and couldn’t wait to sample the big brands name checked when I first visited as a teen. Few things prepared me for the disappointing horror that is a Twinky, LifeSavers are just rubbish versions of fruit polos and Jolly Ranchers were so boring that I can‘t even remember finishing the oversized packet. I even mistakenly picked up a giant bag of Gummi Bears that some pervert had flavoured with cinnamon. I couldn’t even give those things, or those Hershey Kiss arsenuggets, to other kids at school - people just recoiled in horror at the taste


----------



## Luftmensch

WiriWiri said:


> I rue the day when Piers Morgan escaped off his Aus-bound boat, but thankfully we got him to the US eventually



Theyre a rum bunch arent they? Speaking of overrated foods, Abbott and Pier Morgan... Ole Rupe is a good at spinning a yarn.


----------



## Bear

McMan said:


> White pizza is generally bogus unless you're in New Haven, in which case it's perfect.


Pepe's


----------



## ian

McMan said:


> White pizza is generally bogus unless you're in New Haven, in which case it's perfect.



The white clam pizza never really grabbed me. I think I preferred the mashed potato bacon pizza at Bar (can’t remember whether this was usually red or white now, even though I must have had it 10 times) to the white clam one from Pepe’s.


----------



## spaceconvoy

It saddens me to say this, but Pepe's has become overrated ever since they started franchising and switched to trash mozzarella. I haven't been in years so I'm praying they have/will turn it around, though a cousin who's still in the area swears by Modern now.


----------



## ian

spaceconvoy said:


> It saddens me to say this, but Pepe's has become overrated ever since they started franchising and switched to trash mozzarella. I haven't been in years so I'm praying they have/will turn it around, though a cousin who's still in the area swears by Modern now.



I was in New Haven 2009-2012. They had already franchised then. I still preferred Pepe’s to Modern. My (now) wife liked Modern best, though, so that’s where we had our pizza lunch with 5 friends after getting married in New Haven city hall.

That said, there’s a Pepe’s franchise spot near me in Boston that I don’t think is very good.


----------



## spaceconvoy

ian said:


> I was in New Haven 2009-2012. They had already franchised then. I still preferred Pepe’s to Modern. My (now) wife liked Modern best, though, so that’s where we had our pizza lunch with 5 friends after getting married in New Haven city hall.
> 
> That said, there’s a Pepe’s franchise spot near me in Boston that I don’t think is very good.


Ugh, looks like they're opening one in Bethesda MD?! What has the world come to.

Maybe I'm incorrectly correlating it to their franchising (which began earlier than I thought in 2006), but something changed between the last two times I was there, in the summers of 2010 and 2013. If I'm ever in the area again I'll still go and order a tomato pie with mozzarella and a Foxon Park white birch, out of nostalgia and misplaced loyalty. Bethesda is very close to my sister's place, but I'd rather die of starvation than stand in line for an hour with those people. In New Haven with family that was half the fun.


----------



## DitmasPork

WiriWiri said:


> Anyway, This isn‘t about insulting Aussies and their rubbish food brands, I’m more equal opportunies and woke than that,
> 
> US sweets, sorry candy, are/is mainly rubbish too. I was a massive hip hop fan as a kid and couldn’t wait to sample the big brands name checked when I first visited as a teen. Few things prepared me for the disappointing horror that is a Twinky, LifeSavers are just rubbish versions of fruit polos and Jolly Ranchers were so boring that I can‘t even remember finishing the oversized packet. I even mistakenly picked up a giant bag of Gummi Bears that some pervert had flavoured with cinnamon. I couldn’t even give those things, or those Hershey Kiss arsenuggets, to other kids at school - people just recoiled in horror at the taste



I’ve spent a lot of time in Blighty, then married an Aussie wife. Here is what I feel—Aussie meat pies are superior to England’s; Vegemite over Marmite; Oz wine, seafood is awesome; British beer and cheeses better than Antipodean, but VB was enjoyable on a hot afternoon; Brit soccer is better, Aussie cricket is better; crisps are a draw between the two nations. Pics from my last trip to Australia.

Few can resist a golden gaytime.


----------



## DitmasPork

Michi said:


> Fried Mars bar. The ultimate expression of American excess.



Not having much of a sweet tooth, I prefer the Scottish deep fried pizza.








Deep-fried pizza - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Helicon

WiriWiri said:


> While we’re at Tim Tams are mystifyingly rubbish and unworthy of special attention too. It’s basically a marginally improved ripoff of a Penguin, a thin-coated chocolate sandwich biscuit used a cheap filler for kids lunch boxes back in less enlightened days in the UK. Yet to some Australians it’s a national treasure of sorts, something they’ll go surprisingly great expense to import and trumpet. Grow up chaps and develop a taste for some decent chocolate worth worrying about



Ah, perhaps you've thus far failed to appreciate the glory of a Tim Tam properly saturated with hot tea. Instructions are here:








How to Do the Tim Tam Slam: 6 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow


The Tim Tam is a popular chocolate biscuit native to Australia. It consists of two wafers of malted biscuit which sandwich a creamy chocolate filling, with the whole thing being held together by a thin outer layer of chocolate. By nibbling...




www.wikihow.com





And prepare to be astonished.


----------



## coxhaus

Never had a fried candy bar and I don't get Marmite at all. The rest I don't know.

Pizza I understand but there is a lot of bad pizza out there.


----------



## tostadas

Dog


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

Apocalypse said:


> I don't think Caviar is overrated, maybe overpriced.
> 
> However I do think think A5 Wagyu is extremely overrated.


I like A1 Wagyu better. A5 is too fatty to me. Almost can't bear a second bite.


----------



## coxhaus

I don't eat Wagyu. Too much good beef around me here in Texas.


----------



## Bear

spaceconvoy said:


> It saddens me to say this, but Pepe's has become overrated ever since they started franchising and switched to trash mozzarella. I haven't been in years so I'm praying they have/will turn it around, though a cousin who's still in the area swears by Modern now.


I went to school in New Haven in the late 80's, Pepe's was awesome, an institution, I haven't been to Connecticut for a long time, it stinks they ruined it, I loved their clam pies.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Aussie wine is good & cheap it must be the dirt. Don't be a snob have tried reds & whites 
that go good with food or in it.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Helicon said:


> Ah, perhaps you've thus far failed to appreciate the glory of a Tim Tam properly saturated with hot tea. Instructions are here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Do the Tim Tam Slam: 6 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
> 
> 
> The Tim Tam is a popular chocolate biscuit native to Australia. It consists of two wafers of malted biscuit which sandwich a creamy chocolate filling, with the whole thing being held together by a thin outer layer of chocolate. By nibbling...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wikihow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And prepare to be astonished.



High culture


----------



## WiriWiri

Helicon said:


> Ah, perhaps you've thus far failed to appreciate the glory of a Tim Tam properly saturated with hot tea. Instructions are here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Do the Tim Tam Slam: 6 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
> 
> 
> The Tim Tam is a popular chocolate biscuit native to Australia. It consists of two wafers of malted biscuit which sandwich a creamy chocolate filling, with the whole thing being held together by a thin outer layer of chocolate. By nibbling...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wikihow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And prepare to be astonished.



Oh believe me, I have. I work with loads of Aussies and it‘s virtually impossible to get them within 30m of a TimTam without one making a song and dance about the tea straw thing. Anyone would think it’s a ceremony somewhat akin to high tea at the Ritz.

I rarely have the heart to break it to them that not only is the TimTam a shameless ripoff of an existing biscuit, or that the tea straw thing Itself is shamelessly derivative to boot. It may crush their national pride to know that Brits have being doing the same for generations, probably even before strangely loud pinkish people invented Australia on Australia Day. People have been sucking tea through chocolate fingers, Kit Kats, twixes and other assorted biccies for as long as records exist; they just don’t invest undue national pride and make a fuss over it like the Aussies. The TImTam isn‘t even particularly good as a tea straw ffs,

Hell, Cadbury’s even made a chocolate bar seemingly perfectly designed for the purpose - the mighty Spira. People still get very heated about its loss. - see here for an example


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Sucking up tea or other warm beverage with a candy bar bragging rights.


----------



## Jaszer13

Uni - fight me.


----------



## tcmx3

coxhaus said:


> I don't eat Wagyu. Too much good beef around me here in Texas.



as long as we're not talking about brisket. 

I cannot believe people queue up for hours at Franklin or Blacks. this is the biggest Emperor has no Clothes in this whole thread. while some of these foods are overrated, most of them are pretty cheap. Brisket is overpriced AND not very good AND people queue up for it for HOURS AND wont shut up about it.

the best brisket in Austin? Tan My's pho.


----------



## Helicon

WiriWiri said:


> Oh believe me, I have. I work with loads of Aussies and it‘s virtually impossible to get them within 30m of a TimTam without one making a song and dance about the tea straw thing. Anyone would think it’s a ceremony somewhat akin to high tea at the Ritz.
> 
> I rarely have the heart to break it to them that not only is the TimTam a shameless ripoff of an existing biscuit, or that the tea straw thing Itself is shamelessly derivative to boot. It may crush their national pride to know that Brits have being doing the same for generations, probably even before strangely loud pinkish people invented Australia on Australia Day. People have been sucking tea through chocolate fingers, Kit Kats, twixes and other assorted biccies for as long as records exist; they just don’t invest undue national pride and make a fuss over it like the Aussies. The TImTam isn‘t even particularly good as a tea straw ffs,
> 
> Hell, Cadbury’s even made a chocolate bar seemingly perfectly designed for the purpose - the mighty Spira. People still get very heated about its loss. - see here for an example


Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I've tried Kit Kat, Penguin, Twix (w/coffee anyway) and still prefer Tim Tams. After all the point isn't really to use it as a straw, per se. It's to fully saturate the interior of the biscuit with tea and then pop the whole thing into your mouth in a single go before the whole thing disintegrates. 

At home we tend to drink either pure Assam tea or a blend of 3:1 Assam:Ceylon. The maltiness of the tea really works well with the Tim Tams. Maybe you're drinking something else? 

Since I'm not British or Australian I have precisely zero nostalgia for any of these combinations, but have just tried a bunch to see what works best. Of course YMMV.


----------



## Apocalypse

Jaszer13 said:


> Uni - fight me.



How dare you...


----------



## spaceconvoy

Jaszer13 said:


> Uni - fight me.


The most disgusting thing I've ever eaten was low quality uni from a cheap conveyor belt sushi restaurant in Japan. My host family made me try it because it was the dad's favorite food. Tasted exactly like if you had a hundred people not brush for a week then scraped all the plaque off their teeth and rolled it into a ball. I've been told that good quality fresh uni is excellent but that memory haunts me so much I'll never try it again.

Hard to say it's overrated though, since few people rate it at all.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

See on the news how social media like Facebook is making teenage girls feel bad about themselves. 

This thread making me question my Anglo Saxon roots. Maybe I should see a therapist.


----------



## WiriWiri

Keith Sinclair said:


> Sucking up tea or other warm beverage with a candy bar bragging rights.



I share your underwhelmed bemusement tbh. The Tim Tam is perfectly passable and the warm dissolving tea straw thing is likeable enough, but it’s weird thing to make a fuss about once you get past your pre-pubescent years imo. To each their own I guess, but an occasional quick dunk of a biscuit is generally enough of a thrill in this culinary area for me

Anyway, I‘m aware that many Brits are equally ridiculous in theIr brand loyalties. Difficult not to wince when you see establishments boasting of ’real Bisto‘ and ‘Proper HP’ when you go on holiday to the Costa Del Wanker or wherever. I can understand that some people may be hesitant to try challenging local foods, but I can help feel that’s something a little tragic about being attracted to eat out on the promise of familiar gravy granules or a particular brand of baked beans.


----------



## Luftmensch

spaceconvoy said:


> Tasted exactly like if you had a hundred people not brush for a week then scraped all the plaque off their teeth and rolled it into a ball.



Dude!


----------



## Jovidah

Really interesting thread... and a lot of interesting points!



WiriWiri said:


> Fish and chips. Needs copious amounts of salt and vinegar to be slightly more interesting, which is never a great recommendation, Meh, there‘s a reason why fried chicken, curries and spice have increasingly taken over, no matter how much ageing Brits complain


Not that I really care for fish and chips, but I think part of the problem is that these days it's often made with really cheap bland fish like pangasius. Could be good if made with proper fish, but since it's a cheapish product most won't.



spaceconvoy said:


> Maybe you don't appreciate food textures as much as flavor... scallops and guacamole can be wonderful if done right. Eggplant can good in eggplant parmesan, but it's mostly a vehicle for fried oil, and it takes arduous preparation for it to not turn into mush. My grandma could do it, but my mom can't with the same recipe.


This might be less about their cooking skills and more about the product available in supermarkets changing significantly over time. The vegetables and fruits you buy in the supermarket today, in a lot of places, are very different from the stuff sold a few decades ago. Mostly it's faster growing strains, but as a result it often means there's a relatively higher water content, with less flavor and less nutritional value. Even in my lifetime I've noticed distinct changes in some products. I've mostly stopped buying produce at the supermarket simply because the quality is so crap.



tcmx3 said:


> Bacon (I get it, bacon is good, it doesnt have to be your religion sheesh)


Although I'm with you on the religion part, bacon still stands out to me as the one ingredient that immediately comes to mind first whenever I'm presented with a vegetarian meal. 'Sure, this is nice, but it would actually be better if you added some bacon'. 



McMan said:


> Fried eggs are overrated.


To me they're just a matrix to keep the bacon and cheese together. 



pleue said:


> Overrated vs foods I don't like is an interesting one.
> 
> Eggplants can't be overrated in my book because a lot of Americans really don't like it because they're **** cooks or have been subjected to **** cooks and cook mostly anglo food. I've had my fair share of acrid unsalted oily grilled eggplant. Imam biyaldi, yaki nasu, cantonese claypot eggplant, brinjal sabzi. There's a lot out there that's delicious if you look a little. Texturally there's a diversity, especially as you get into thai eggplant dishes, but I think it's harder for some folks to get into a different textural appreciation mindset of things people typically describe as unctuous, slippery, slinky, silky, crunchy (in a cartilage type way) where other food cultures revere such textures.
> 
> Top of head on my overrated list (though I like examples of all of these)
> 
> - Pork loin, fillet, and lots of other lean meats prone to being tough with little intrinsic flavor
> - Strawberries (Most of what people have access to taste like sweet water)


Comment above about 'vegetables now are not the same as in the past' applies to eggplant too. I think it's also one of those cases where good eggplant exists, but it's not what you'll find in most supermarkets.

Not sure Kale sounds as overrated. That would require anyone to have a positive opinion about it; does anyone actually genuinely like it? I think it's just something people eat because they think it's healthy.

Completely with you on the fillet part; especially when it comes to beef. I'll much rather have the hanger steak at half the price, simply because it has twice the flavor.

When it comes to strawberries; good ones, in season, are awesome. But I agree there's some dissapointing ones on the market, especially when you buy out of season. In my experience the smaller ones are better, and once you get an eye for it you can get reasonably good at guesstimating just based on looks what will be a good strawberry or not.




chefwp said:


> I feel this way particularly about beef liver. I'm not too fond of other livers cooked and served 'whole', but I can get on board with duck liver pâté and other liver-based charcuterie.


I have a similar kind of hipocrisy with livers. I never liked them when prepared on their own, but at the same time I'm a sucker for good patés, that all tend to have liver as their first ingredient. 



Logan A. said:


> Shredded Lettuce.
> People put it on all types of things to convince themselves that they’re being healthy. In reality it’s bland and there’s a thousand other ways to add textural variety while also adding flavor.


Lettuce is just crispy water if you ask me. Same issue with cucumber. I struggle to see any reason to add it to any dish; even the health benefits are dubious since both really are just crispy water, without much nutrients. Good diët food I guess...



Chunkybananahead said:


> French fries. Admittedly there are a very few versions which taste good 30 seconds out of the oil but after that……. Meh.


Main problem here is that most commercial fries are made from really boring bland potatoes, and fried in the most bland boring tastless oil (or worse, filthy oil). Make them yourself from actual good quality flavorful potatoes, and fry them in an actual tasty oil and it'll be a world of difference. Though I have to agree that you can get equally good or better potato products from an oven.


As for my own standouts... I really don't like raw meat/fish. So oysters, carpaccio, sashimi.... all of that is compeltely lost on me. Eating those proteins raw just feels like a 'stranded on an uninhabitated island' last resort to me, reverting back to culinary practises of the Neanderthal age, before fire and cooking were a thing. Really not for me.


----------



## panda

beef tenderloin lacks flavor
lamb makes me want to vomit
caviar tastes gross
lobster tastes gross


----------



## cotedupy

Keith Sinclair said:


> Aussie wine is good & cheap it must be the dirt. Don't be a snob have tried reds & whites
> that go good with food or in it.



Or the *ahem* 'liberal' approach to over-cropping, irrigation, and tartaric adds. 

Allegedly


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Get your early man & hominids straight. Neanderthal had fire. They also had a brain just as large as Homo Sapiens. Homo Erectus over 
One million years ago who walked out of Africa remains found in Georgia, China, Indonesia, much of known world had fire. A smaller brain, but used tools like hand axe to butcher meat. 
Fire was a big deal for many reasons.


----------



## cotedupy

DitmasPork said:


> I’ve spent a lot of time in Blighty, then married an Aussie wife. Here is what I feel—Aussie meat pies are superior to England’s; Vegemite over Marmite; Oz wine, seafood is awesome; British beer and cheeses better than Antipodean, but VB was enjoyable on a hot afternoon; Brit soccer is better, Aussie cricket is better; crisps are a draw between the two nations. Pics from my last trip to Australia.
> 
> Few can resist a golden gaytime.
> View attachment 146324
> 
> View attachment 146325
> 
> View attachment 146326
> 
> View attachment 146327
> 
> View attachment 146328
> 
> View attachment 146329
> 
> View attachment 146330
> 
> View attachment 146331
> View attachment 146332
> View attachment 146335




I have a similar trajectory - from London, married an Aussie, then moved here a couple of years ago...

Not much of a meat pie person myself, but they do seem popular here. So we'll give it to Aus. 1-0.

Marmite is slightly better Vegemite, which is a little 1-D in comparison. (Obviously one of the first things I did when moving was a side-by-side blind tasting). 1-1.

Australian wine certainly. English sparkling wine is world class, on a level with Champagne. But for everything else - Aus. 2-1.

British seafood is one of the things I miss most. Next time I'm home I'm going to bring back some tasty and delicious invasive marine life to set free over here. 2-2.

That's closely followed by proper beer, though I do have a soft spot for VB. In fact I'm drinking one now. Shame it's not a nice pint of Ordinary though. 2-3.

Australians are inexplicably, and unjustifiably, obsessed with cheese. I don't think I have ever been to someone's house and not been presented with a 'platter' shortly after arrival. This consists of a number of wedges of cheese-like-substance* in a variety of colours. Served invariably with something awful called 'Rice Crackers'. Australia are DNQ on this one. 2-4.

Aussie Rules Football is completely absurd. 2-5.

They might arguably be better at cricket. 3-5.

As the picture notes - the two national favourite crisp flavours in Australia are; Chicken, and 'Cheese'. The two boringest of all. And you can't get Pickled Onion Monster Munch here. Plus - they call them 'chips', so chips have to be differentiated as 'hot chips', which is a particularly annoying and stupid approach to the use of language. 3-6.

FT

It was a brave start by the Aussies getting off to an early lead, but their heads dropped in the second half, and class and experience won out. At the end of the day the scoreline perhaps even flatters the colonists, who were lucky to escape a penalty point in the cheese round.


* I later learned this was because _almost all_ _unpasteurised cheese is illegal in Australia. _I kid ye not. On very rare occasions I've been given a piece or two of something bearing a suspicious resemblance to actual cheese. But if you ask your host where they acquired it; there's a kind of omerta, and unwillingness to reveal the source. 'Oh I've got a guy' they mutter vaguely, 'he doesn't get much'. Before quickly changing the topic to debate the latest baffling goings-on in the AFL, again.


----------



## WiriWiri

cotedupy said:


> Australians are inexplicably, and unjustifiably, obsessed with cheese. I don't think I have ever been to someone's house and not been presented with a 'platter' shortly after arrival. This consists of a number of wedges of cheese-like-substance* in a variety of shades. Served invariably with something awful called 'Rice Crackers'. Australia are DNQ on this one. 2-4.
> 
> * I later learned this was because _almost all_ _unpasteurised cheese is illegal in Australia. _I kid ye not. On very rare occasions I've been given a piece or two of something bearing a suspicious resemblance to actual cheese. But if you ask your host where they acquired it; there's a kind of omerta, and unwillingness to reveal their sources. 'Oh I've got a guy' they mutter vaguely, 'he doesn't get much'. Before quickly changing the topic to debate the latest baffling goings-on in the AFL, again.



Jeez fella, I never realised that. Sorry for your loss.

To be fair I don’t have great memories of Aussie cheese. When our (typically mongrel looking) London rugby team toured there a few hosts seemed to take disproportionate joy in serving up something called Coon cheese at every opportunity, the mulleted wags.

Aussies do seem to have their perception of foreign/outsider danger set to max - customs there seem inordinately keen to fine and strip search anyone with a rogue satsuma in their possession, bleakly warning of biohazards to their isolated island. Unpasteurised cheese probably falls under the same alarmist category I guess - customs holding back the flood of corrupting Brie from Aus’s shores

Anyway, happy to keep our hazardous, tasty cheeses to ourselves, leaving Aussies the responsible guardians of their precious environment, happily mining away and turning everything moving Into pies.


----------



## Michi

WiriWiri said:


> Unpasteurised cheese probably falls under the same alarmist category


It's now possible to make cheese from raw milk in Australia. There are plenty of imported cheeses available now (at a price). There are also a number of very good Australian cheese artisans, who make cheeses that are up there with the very best the world has to offer. Things have been looking up a lot in that sector in the past few years.


----------



## Luftmensch

cotedupy said:


> British seafood is one of the things I miss most. Next time I'm home I'm going to bring back some tasty and delicious invasive marine life to set free over here. 2-2.



Really!? Are you inland? Sydney is rather blessed - the fish market is the the second/third biggest in the world. I have had great seafood on both the east and west coasts. Thats the number 1 rule. Inland? Dont eat seafood!

Now let's get picky  Do you mean seafood or fish?? I met a handful of Poms who wouldnt dare deviate from anything anglo looking (mainly in Newcastle... which could explain it). Your meat and two veg stereotypes.... Probably very literally two veg mind you. Both in terms of the what was on the plate, and what varieties they might be prepared to eat. The least adventurous eaters I have ever met! While they might eat fish (if it had all the fish looking things removed)... I doubt they would eat seafood!

Speaking of overrated... fish and chips. I love fish and I love chips... but fish _and_ chips is a separate category. I kind of feel like 'fish and chips' is about as descriptive as saying 'food and food'. It is pretty hard to stuff up: paper-flavoured protein dipped in batter and fried... and fried paper-flavoured starch. All wrapped up and given to you in paper. Don't get me wrong... there is a certain comfort and nostalgia eating fish and chips at the beach. There is also 'good' fish and chips and 'bad' fish and chips... but on average?? Meh... can't we just skip to the oily regret part??

I am just putting it out there.... But I reckon Australia has to be near the top of the short list of western countries that offer ubiquitous, reasonably priced and decent sushi (at least in the capital cities).





cotedupy said:


> Aussie Rules Football is completely absurd. 2-5.



 You should move to NSW. AFL is not the dominant code. We're much more into our



WiriWiri said:


> typically mongrel looking



NRL teams.... But then... for the life of me... I dont get the appeal of watching other people run after a ball. In particular, I have had more enjoyable dentist appointments than pretending to enjoy cricket.


----------



## Luftmensch

cotedupy said:


> Australians are inexplicably, and unjustifiably, obsessed with cheese. I don't think I have ever been to someone's house and not been presented with a 'platter' shortly after arrival.



 so true... but I am not complaining. There is always room for more cheese! So long as it doesnt come from a can or single serve plastic wraps.




WiriWiri said:


> Coon cheese



Yeah... Not the best cheese in the world... but an edible 'staple' cheese (ok for sandwiches etc). For the education of KKF, the obvious elephant in the room is the name. It is an awful racial slur. It is also used in Australia. It is alleged that the cheese was named after the cheese maker Edward William Coon. There is apparently an active lawsuit defending the veracity of the story. True or not... because of the obviously nasty connection, the name was changed recently. It is now called Cheer cheese. While I supported the name change... I think 'Cheer cheese' is too twee.




Michi said:


> There are plenty of imported cheeses available now (at a price).



Thats right! We eat a lot of French cheese when we have company. d'Affinois is always a creamy treat.

Tasmanian cheese always strikes me as nice enough??


----------



## cotedupy

Michi said:


> It's now possible to make cheese from raw milk in Australia. There are plenty of imported cheeses available now (at a price). There are also a number of very good Australian cheese artisans, who make cheeses that are up there with the very best the world has to offer. Things have been looking up a lot in that sector in the past few years.



Ah! It sounds like I perhaps need better friends then... I have still yet to come across a brie or camembert here that a Frenchman would invite into bed.

But you can't whinge at the umpire's ruling now I'm afraid . Anyway you'll probably win the return 'Quality of Beaches and Weather' fixture, and maybe even sneak the 'Government Competence' Bonus Round.


----------



## Luftmensch

cotedupy said:


> I have still yet to come across a brie or camembert here that a Frenchman would invite into bed







__





King Island Dairy


King Island Dairy




www.kingislanddairy.com.au





Should be fairly available**. While I am not going to claim that this is incredible cheese... it is at least good enough that our hypothetical Frenchman would not be embarrassed to tell his friends (I dont think??).

Bega is an ok cheddar.

Like any other country, Australia has a lot of smaller boutiques that can be harder to find. We are quite a big dairy country so there are a lot of good products out there... but it hard to connect with. Our supermarkets typically stock fairly 'everyday' stuff. If you want more choice and better product, you should seek out a specialty store!

[**Edit: King Island broke out of that boutique category a long while ago. They are a big operation and you aught to be able to find them in the supermarkets. While you might not call them boutique... or small batch... they price themselves as a premium product]


----------



## Jovidah

Keith Sinclair said:


> Get your early man & hominids straight. Neanderthal had fire. They also had a brain just as large as Homo Sapiens. Homo Erectus over
> One million years ago who walked out of Africa remains found in Georgia, China, Indonesia, much of known world had fire. A smaller brain, but used tools like hand axe to butcher meat.
> Fire was a big deal for many reasons.


Fair point but that just makes it worse. Cooking food was one of the main factors in allowing us to evolve to have bigger brains. Why go back to raw food!



cotedupy said:


> * I later learned this was because _almost all_ _unpasteurised cheese is illegal in Australia. _I kid ye not. On very rare occasions I've been given a piece or two of something bearing a suspicious resemblance to actual cheese. But if you ask your host where they acquired it; there's a kind of omerta, and unwillingness to reveal the source. 'Oh I've got a guy' they mutter vaguely, 'he doesn't get much'. Before quickly changing the topic to debate the latest baffling goings-on in the AFL, again.


That's just sad. Pasteurized cheese is mostly dead flavorless junk. Sadly that's been the trend in the mainstream here as well, but luckily you can still find good rawmilk cheese here if you know where to look.
Supermarket must think I'm vegan at this point considering I buy almost 0 protein there these days because the quality / price are just so appaling.


----------



## cotedupy

Luftmensch said:


> Really!? Are you inland? Sydney is rather blessed - the fish market is the the second/third biggest in the world. I have had great seafood on both the east and west coasts. Thats the number 1 rule. Inland? Dont eat seafood!
> 
> Now let's get picky  Do you mean seafood or fish?? I met a handful of Poms who wouldnt dare deviate from anything anglo looking (mainly in Newcastle... which could explain it). Your meat and two veg stereotypes.... Probably very literally two veg mind you. Both in terms of the what was on the plate, and what they varieties they might be prepared to eat. The least adventurous eaters I have ever met! While they might eat fish (if it had all the fish looking things removed)... I doubt they would eat seafood!
> 
> Speaking of overrated... fish and chips. I love fish and I love chips... but fish and chips is a separate category. I kind of feel like 'fish and chips' is about as descriptive as saying 'food and food'. It is pretty hard to stuff up: paper-flavoured protein dipped in batter and fried... and fried paper-flavoured starch. All wrapped up and given to you in paper. Don't get me wrong... there is a certain comfort and nostalgia eating fish and chips at the beach. There is also 'good' fish and chips and 'bad' fish and chips... but on average?? Meh... can't we just skip to the oily regret part??
> 
> I am just putting it out there.... But I reckon Australia has to be near the top of the short list of western countries that offer ubiquitous, reasonably priced and decent sushi (at least in the capital cities).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should move to NSW. AFL is not the dominant code. We're much more into our
> 
> 
> 
> NRL teams.... But then... for the life of me... I dont get the appeal of watching other people run after a ball. In particular, I have had more enjoyable dentist appointments than pretending to enjoy cricket.



We're pretty close to the sea - maybe 20 mins - it's more to do with the weird species here. What of; Turbot? Haddock? Brill? Sole? Brown Crab? Morecambe Bay Shrimps? Herring? or (real) Mackerel? I realise it is unfair to hold the Southern Hemisphere to the unreasonably high standards of the North Sea and Atlantic, but there must be something a little more interesting below the surface than endless shoals of King George Whiting and Barramundi...?

Agreed re - Fish and Chips, and I think @WiriWiri made similar observations early on in this thread. I actually eat it quite a lot here, because it's on every single pub menu everywhere, and as you say - it's relatively easy for someone not to completely balls up. Plus of course; pretty much any of the unremarkable local fish species are perfectly suited for the dish, so it's guaranteed to be fresh! .

The point about sushi is a good one too - the average here is both higher than the UK, and cheaper. The same stands for most Asian cuisines afaics, _especially _pretty much all types of Chinese. The only real exceptions being Thai, Indian and Pakistani, I suspect because of the average Bruce's general disinclination toward chilli.

I did happen to have passable Tassie Cheddar the other day, so must look into other stuff from down there. Though I'm afraid it's _precisely _things like D'Affinois that are at the heart of the Australian Cheese Platter Problem; tasteless, double-cream frippery. It may have a 'nice mouth feel', but so, I imagine, does warm Play-Doh.


----------



## Lars

The difference between good and great fish and chips imo. Completely transforms the dish


----------



## daveb

That doesn't look like beer...


----------



## DitmasPork

cotedupy said:


> I have a similar trajectory - from London, married an Aussie, then moved here a couple of years ago...
> 
> Not much of a meat pie person myself, but they do seem popular here. So we'll give it to Aus. 1-0.
> 
> Marmite is slightly better Vegemite, which is a little 1-D in comparison. (Obviously one of the first things I did when moving was a side-by-side blind tasting). 1-1.
> 
> Australian wine certainly. English sparkling wine is world class, on a level with Champagne. But for everything else - Aus. 2-1.
> 
> British seafood is one of the things I miss most. Next time I'm home I'm going to bring back some tasty and delicious invasive marine life to set free over here. 2-2.
> 
> That's closely followed by proper beer, though I do have a soft spot for VB. In fact I'm drinking one now. Shame it's not a nice pint of Ordinary though. 2-3.
> 
> Australians are inexplicably, and unjustifiably, obsessed with cheese. I don't think I have ever been to someone's house and not been presented with a 'platter' shortly after arrival. This consists of a number of wedges of cheese-like-substance* in a variety of colours. Served invariably with something awful called 'Rice Crackers'. Australia are DNQ on this one. 2-4.
> 
> Aussie Rules Football is completely absurd. 2-5.
> 
> They might arguably be better at cricket. 3-5.
> 
> As the picture notes - the two national favourite crisp flavours in Australia are; Chicken, and 'Cheese'. The two boringest of all. And you can't get Pickled Onion Monster Munch here. Plus - they call them 'chips', so chips have to be differentiated as 'hot chips', which is a particularly annoying and stupid approach to the use of language. 3-6.
> 
> FT
> 
> It was a brave start by the Aussies getting off to an early lead, but their heads dropped in the second half, and class and experience won out. At the end of the day the scoreline perhaps even flatters the colonists, who were lucky to escape a penalty point in the cheese round.
> 
> 
> * I later learned this was because _almost all_ _unpasteurised cheese is illegal in Australia. _I kid ye not. On very rare occasions I've been given a piece or two of something bearing a suspicious resemblance to actual cheese. But if you ask your host where they acquired it; there's a kind of omerta, and unwillingness to reveal the source. 'Oh I've got a guy' they mutter vaguely, 'he doesn't get much'. Before quickly changing the topic to debate the latest baffling goings-on in the AFL, again.


Admirable scorecard! I've tried very hard to watch Aussie Rules Football, couldn't get into it. However I do love rugby, soccer, cricket, surfing.
Weirdest food thing in Australia—for me—is the going to restaurants, most of which you order at the counter, then the server brings the food. I don't understand why they don't just have waiters/waitresses take orders at the table—there's little recourse for the diner if the restaurant messes up the order. They make it difficult to send anything back or get things corrected.


----------



## DitmasPork

Jovidah said:


> Fair point but that just makes it worse. Cooking food was one of the main factors in allowing us to evolve to have bigger brains. Why go back to raw food!
> 
> 
> That's just sad. Pasteurized cheese is mostly dead flavorless junk. Sadly that's been the trend in the mainstream here as well, but luckily you can still find good rawmilk cheese here if you know where to look.
> Supermarket must think I'm vegan at this point considering I buy almost 0 protein there these days because the quality / price are just so appaling.



I love fine cheeses, but also appreciate and love common supermarket cheese. There're certain dishes that I welcome cheap, pasteurized, American Cheese—grilled cheese 'n tomato sandwiches; Tex-Mex tacos and enchiladas; classic cheeseburger; Southern Mac 'n Cheese. Delicious and nostalgic food for me.

Moscow style baked fish, another great example where cheap, processed cheese is preferable over a fine aged cheese; as with Korean Budae jjigae; etc.

A number of hip restaurants are rediscovering the joys of cheap American cheese.

I've some friends that are quite snobbish, turning their nose up at American Cheese, we often argue the merits of Velveeta, and individually wrapped Kraft cheese. Interestingly, most of my friends in the anti-American cheese contingent don't know how to cook, are into the trendy, hipster, foodie stuff, aren't terribly adventurous with food, and are missing out on some great dishes IMO. I honestly will not say a Colston Basset Stilton is always better than a humble slice of Kraft American Cheese—they're simply different ingredients.

There are times to savor Jamón ibérico; and other times when only SPAM will do.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yep cooked food easier to digest. Protein & having to adapt to changing environment helped develope larger brain. 

Like fresh beer not the pasteurized stale mass market stuff. Cheese don't eat a lot, but do like 
extra sharp cheddar.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Wassup Bro, we went to farmers market at KCC this morning got fresh made mochi. So ono


----------



## tcmx3

DitmasPork said:


> I love fine cheeses, but also appreciate and love common supermarket cheese. There're certain dishes that I welcome cheap, pasteurized, American Cheese—grilled cheese 'n tomato sandwiches; Tex-Mex tacos and enchiladas; classic cheeseburger; Southern Mac 'n Cheese. Delicious and nostalgic food for me.
> 
> Moscow style baked fish, another great example where cheap, processed cheese is preferable over a fine aged cheese; as with Korean Budae jjigae; etc.
> 
> A number of hip restaurants are rediscovering the joys of cheap American cheese.
> 
> I've some friends that are quite snobbish, turning their nose up at American Cheese, we often argue the merits of Velveeta, and individually wrapped Kraft cheese. Interestingly, most of my friends in the anti-American cheese contingent don't know how to cook, are into the trendy, hipster, foodie stuff, aren't terribly adventurous with food, and are missing out on some great dishes IMO. I honestly will not say a Colston Basset Stilton is always better than a humble slice of Kraft American Cheese—they're simply different ingredients.
> 
> There are times to savor Jamón ibérico; and other times when only SPAM will do.



count me in the anti-Kraft single club.

grilled cheese - tons of options. even just sharp cheddar. I will admit Im not a huge fan of a grilled cheese though.

Tex-Mex tacos and enchiladas - living in Texas, I have never seen American cheese on either of these dishes. maybe Im not paying enough attention. I will not argue that Tex Mex doesnt use some highly processed options, but I dont think it's American. cheddar, white cheddar, even the most popular "mexican cheese", which Im pretty sure only white people buy is a mixture primarily of cheddar and monterey jack. which while trashy, is at least tasty.

macaroni and cheese - the only people Ive ever witnessed make this dish with American cheese were from Massachusetts. my grandmother (from Georgia [the state]) used cheddar and so did all the other old ladies I grew up around. the typical cheese for this dish also include gruyere. American in this dish is an obscenity. also because this is a baked dish with a bechamel base, I would avoid ANY cheese that has any binders, coatings like they put on shredded cheese, etc. so even some supermarket stuff is too suspicious to use.

cheeseburger - ok this one I know Im swimming up the stream on, but I actually don't think that it's even particularly good on a cheeseburger. pepper jack, cheddar, swiss, colby or Monterey jack, all superior.

I dont know I think Im in the target demographic for it too, but I hate the stuff. as far as being a hipster, well Im typing this message from my 19th century typewriter in a flannel shirt so you got me.


----------



## ian

tcmx3 said:


> macaroni and cheese - the only people Ive ever witnessed make this dish with American cheese were from Massachusetts. my grandmother (from Georgia [the state]) used cheddar and so did all the other old ladies I grew up around. the typical cheese for this dish also include gruyere. American in this dish is an obscenity. also because this is a baked dish with a bechamel base, I would avoid ANY cheese that has any binders, coatings like they put on shredded cheese, etc. so even some supermarket stuff is too suspicious to use.



@panda


----------



## Rangen

I sort of get grilled cheese, but my wife is an enthusiast. She recommends that Cotswold cheddar with the chives in it.

I like to think I can cook, but I've never made a mac 'n' cheese I've been happy with. I think the problem is that I have tried only two approaches in all the recipes, to the problem of making a cheese sauce: making a béchamel sauce and stirring the cheese into it (not good, dilutes the intensity of the cheese too much, and introduces a starchy quality that you don't really need when you're eating wheat anyway), and some sort of hi-tech suggestion from Nathan Myrvhold, some chemical powder that truly did keep the cheese from separating into fats and solids, but something about the texture annoyed me. I think I'm missing something.

I have found no use for Kraft singles or other "processed cheese food," but I sometimes lazily resort to presliced no-pedigree cheese for sandwiches. I even enjoyed some sort of packaged snack cheese. In my defense, it was made by Tillamook, and contained some sort of hot pepper.


----------



## ian

Rangen said:


> I like to think I can cook, but I've never made a mac 'n' cheese I've been happy with. I think the problem is that I have tried only two approaches in all the recipes, to the problem of making a cheese sauce: making a béchamel sauce and stirring the cheese into it (not good, dilutes the intensity of the cheese too much, and introduces a starchy quality that you don't really need when you're eating wheat anyway), and some sort of hi-tech suggestion from Nathan Myrvhold, some chemical powder that truly did keep the cheese from separating into fats and solids, but something about the texture annoyed me. I think I'm missing something.



Less flour in the bechamel? Mine’s typically pretty thin until I add the 10 lbs of cheese to it.


----------



## Rangen

ian said:


> Less flour in the bechamel? Mine’s typically pretty thin until I add the 10 lbs of cheese to it.



Pros like to say that cooking is all about ratios, and this sounds like my kind of ratio,


----------



## Luftmensch

cotedupy said:


> Though I'm afraid it's _precisely _things like D'Affinois that are at the heart of the Australian Cheese Platter Problem; tasteless, double-cream frippery. It may have a 'nice mouth feel', but so, I imagine, does warm Play-Doh.



Then you and I sir; we shall turn our separate way as sworn enemies! 

 I get it... there is something predictably excessive about it. Thats why I love it as a treat occasionally. A good cheese platter is really about variety. Maybe a creamy brie, a sharp cheddar or parmesan, a smoked gouda, a blue and some goats cheese. Colour me happy!





DitmasPork said:


> I love fine cheeses, but also appreciate and love common supermarket cheese. There're certain dishes that I welcome cheap, pasteurized, American Cheese—grilled cheese 'n tomato sandwiches; Tex-Mex tacos and enchiladas; classic cheeseburger;



Wise words! I agree!





Rangen said:


> I like to think I can cook, but I've never made a mac 'n' cheese I've been happy with.



Thats because mac'n'cheese is overrated...

.... .... weeeee!


----------



## panda

I don't even like cheese but love American cheese, especially when its caramelized. but in mac n cheese just melt into heavy cream and it makes the best perfectly textured sauce.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Luftmensch said:


> Since I brought up hipster coffee culture... turmeric lattes



Tumeric is good in curries because plenty other Indian spices blend with it. Since it's 
health benefits have been well publicized they put it in capsules  by itself it's pretty awful.
Added to coffee bad idea.


----------



## DitmasPork

tcmx3 said:


> count me in the anti-Kraft single club.
> 
> grilled cheese - tons of options. even just sharp cheddar. I will admit Im not a huge fan of a grilled cheese though.
> 
> Tex-Mex tacos and enchiladas - living in Texas, I have never seen American cheese on either of these dishes. maybe Im not paying enough attention. I will not argue that Tex Mex doesnt use some highly processed options, but I dont think it's American. cheddar, white cheddar, even the most popular "mexican cheese", which Im pretty sure only white people buy is a mixture primarily of cheddar and monterey jack. which while trashy, is at least tasty.
> 
> macaroni and cheese - the only people Ive ever witnessed make this dish with American cheese were from Massachusetts. my grandmother (from Georgia [the state]) used cheddar and so did all the other old ladies I grew up around. the typical cheese for this dish also include gruyere. American in this dish is an obscenity. also because this is a baked dish with a bechamel base, I would avoid ANY cheese that has any binders, coatings like they put on shredded cheese, etc. so even some supermarket stuff is too suspicious to use.
> 
> cheeseburger - ok this one I know Im swimming up the stream on, but I actually don't think that it's even particularly good on a cheeseburger. pepper jack, cheddar, swiss, colby or Monterey jack, all superior.
> 
> I dont know I think Im in the target demographic for it too, but I hate the stuff. as far as being a hipster, well Im typing this message from my 19th century typewriter in a flannel shirt so you got me.



Think with food much has to with familiarity. Growing up in a suburb by the beach, Kraft singles were a kitchen staple in the ‘fridge. Thrown into sandwiches, on salads, in omelettes, or just eaten plain.

Yeah, I associate American cheese with certain dishes: cheese burgers; the cheesy egg on a roll from the corner deli; cheese omelettes at Greek diners; etc.

With Mac ‘n’ Cheese, I’ll typically use cheddar, or gruyere, or pepper Jack, or whatever I fancy at the moment. American cheese a popular choice in the Southern and Caribbean joints in my ‘hood. Cheaper and more familiar than a good cheddar.
This American cheese-centric mac ‘n’ cheese from Tennessee, via BA, pretty darn good.:








Southern Mac and Cheese


If it's wrong to put American cheese in your Southern mac and cheese recipe, we don't want to be right.




www.bonappetit.com





Admittedly, with TexMex, the best in Hawaii when I lived there was Taco Bell. I’ve not been to one in at least a decade, but still view their tacos fondly. Think they use some proprietary shredded cheese blend—probably processed (pure conjecture).

With burgers, I’ll take any cheese a cook will throw my way; American, Stilton, gruyere, Swiss, etc.

Kraft singles slice and SPAM garnishing a bowl of spicy ramen is homey comfort food—a reductionist Korean ‘Army Stew.’


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> Tumeric is good in curries because plenty other Indian spices blend with it. Since it's
> health benefits have been well publicized they put it in capsules  by itself it's pretty awful.
> Added to coffee bad idea.


My wife was taking Turmeric/Black Pepper capsules. I’d been tempted to throw some in a soup.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Really like Mexican food. Not the American versions. Somehow escaped a lot of cheese melted on food. Went to a place in Maui that the whole plate was covered with several melted cheeses. I peeled it off to find the food which wasn't very good.

My favorite Mexican in Hawaii is Azteca run by Mexicans. You often see Mexicans eating there. They use cheese but very sparingly. 

Their Pork Verde is the best. Also eaten good Mexican in San Diego. 

Pizza with cheese filled crust, cheese logs 
More is not always better. Cooking is more than a ton of salt & sugar.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> Really like Mexican food. Not the American versions. Somehow escaped a lot of cheese melted on food. Went to a place in Maui that the whole plate was covered with several melted cheeses. I peeled it off to find the food which wasn't very good.
> 
> My favorite Mexican in Hawaii is Azteca run by Mexicans. You often see Mexicans eating there. They use cheese but very sparingly.
> 
> Their Pork Verde is the best. Also eaten good Mexican in San Diego.
> 
> Pizza with cheese filled crust, cheese logs
> More is not always better. Cooking is more than a ton of salt & sugar.



I'm definitely going to check out Azteca! I go to Kaimuki often, used to live there, went to elementary school across the street from Azteca. Azteca occupies the space that used to be Kaimuki Chop Suey. On that block is a pretty good, new, Vietnamese called Broken Rice which I've eaten at twice.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Underated Hawaii Avocados & Mangos 
VA., & Georgia peaches tree ripened.

Awful 
Organ meats. Reason why land & sea critters 
are gutted. 

Save it for the pigs  oops actually DNA wise 
Not that different like pigs humans will eat everything.


----------



## Michi

Keith Sinclair said:


> Awful
> Organ meats. Reason why land & sea critters
> are gutted.
> 
> Save it for the pigs  oops actually DNA wise
> Not that different like pigs humans will eat everything.


Sorry, but you haven't lived unless you've eaten sour calf's lung


----------



## Apocalypse

I asked my fiance and she said, "Hot pot and In-N-Out."


----------



## Thoz

Most Vegetables
Wagyu
Plant based fats (Olive Oil, Coconut Oil)

While mostly enjoyable i feel they are definitely overrated.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

A vegan doesn't eat any meat. I draw the line on organ meats Don't like liver waste filters. 

I can enjoy a half dozen raw oysters tho. Really 
like the small sweet New Zealand oysters. Like 
caviar too. 

Of course we can revert to eating the hearts & brains of our defeated enemies.


----------



## DitmasPork

*New York hotdogs; New York pizza; New York bagels—all terribly overrated. *

I say this as a proud New Yorker, having lived in NYC for over 30 years. Sure there’re some of the best hotdogs and pizza to be had in NYC, but generally, the average pizza, hotdogs and bagels suck.

Ok:
• Montreal makes the best bagels
• Tucsan and Chicago got the best hotdogs
• San Francisco, New Haven, and Zagreb do better pizzas than NYC—unless trekking to one of the pizza temples like Di Fara, Totonno’s; or trendy joints like Roberta’s.


----------



## Rangen

Man, I have to try a Tuscan hot dog when I'm next in Florence.

The only Montreal bagels I've had were sort of light and fluffy and sweet. They were like tiny bagels in shape, but not in texture (a good bagel should "fight back some"), nor in taste (a bagel should NEVER taste sweet). Maybe I had ones from the wrong place.


----------



## DitmasPork

Rangen said:


> Man, I have to try a Tuscan hot dog when I'm next in Florence.
> 
> The only Montreal bagels I've had were sort of light and fluffy and sweet. They were like tiny bagels in shape, but not in texture (a good bagel should "fight back some"), nor in taste (a bagel should NEVER taste sweet). Maybe I had ones from the wrong place.



Sorry, typo, meant to write Tucsan, not Tuscan. 'Sonoran hot dogs' in Tucsan are awesome.


----------



## Apocalypse

DitmasPork said:


> *New York hotdogs; New York pizza; New York bagels—all terribly overrated. *
> 
> I say this as a proud New Yorker, having lived in NYC for over 30 years. Sure there’re some of the best hotdogs and pizza to be had in NYC, but generally, the average pizza, hotdogs and bagels suck.
> 
> Ok:
> • Montreal makes the best bagels
> • Tucsan and Chicago got the best hotdogs
> • San Francisco, New Haven, and Zagreb do better pizzas than NYC—unless trekking to one of the pizza temples like Di Fara, Totonno’s; or trendy joints like Roberta’s.



That brings up a good point. Pizza is largely overrated. Mainly because actually good pizza is very hard to come by. Unless you make it yourself it's extremely rare to find real pizza made well.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

DitmasPork said:


> *New York hotdogs; New York pizza; New York bagels—all terribly overrated. *
> 
> I say this as a proud New Yorker, having lived in NYC for over 30 years. Sure there’re some of the best hotdogs and pizza to be had in NYC, but generally, the average pizza, hotdogs and bagels suck.
> 
> Ok:
> • Montreal makes the best bagels
> • Tucsan and Chicago got the best hotdogs
> • San Francisco, New Haven, and Zagreb do better pizzas than NYC—unless trekking to one of the pizza temples like Di Fara, Totonno’s; or trendy joints like Roberta’s.



With all due respect, there's almost nothing I like about the east coast, but I am extremely jealous of your easy access to amazing ingredients! The ability to just walk down the block and transition from a little convenience shop to an old school Italian meat place to cheese to whatever is amazing! 

There's so much history.

That is very limited on the west coast and really only in select cities and even then, the broad diversity isn't there.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I saw a show that made coal fired Pizza in NYC.

Anybody eat there looked pretty good.


----------



## Rangen

Keith Sinclair said:


> I saw a show that made coal fired Pizza in NYC.
> 
> Anybody eat there looked pretty good.



Not sure what place was on the show, but I ate twice at Lombardis, and thought it was great. I have since learned that it does not rate highly in the pantheon, but I don't care, I loved it. Also, locals get spoiled. When I was in New Orleans, years ago when Paul Prudhomme was still alive, people told me not to eat at this restaurant, because it had gone downhill. I went anyway, and had one of my top American meals ever. And the best Caesar salad, by far, that I have ever eaten.


----------



## DitmasPork

HumbleHomeCook said:


> With all due respect, there's almost nothing I like about the east coast, but I am extremely jealous of your easy access to amazing ingredients! The ability to just walk down the block and transition from a little convenience shop to an old school Italian meat place to cheese to whatever is amazing!
> 
> There's so much history.
> 
> That is very limited on the west coast and really only in select cities and even then, the broad diversity isn't there.



Don't get me wrong—I love NYC's food scene; the myriad ingredients I've at my disposal; not to mention inspiration from some of the best cooks around.

That said, as iconic as NYC's hotdogs, pizza, and bagels are, they often fail to deliver—quality has declined IMO. Too often I've bought a hotdog from a streetcart, served up by an indifferent dude, the tasteless hotdog having had a hot water bath for hours. Street hotdogs and pizza were much better when I moved to NYC.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

DitmasPork said:


> Don't get me wrong—I love NYC's food scene; the myriad ingredients I've at my disposal; not to mention inspiration from some of the best cooks around.
> 
> That said, as iconic as NYC's hotdogs, pizza, and bagels are, they often fail to deliver—quality has declined IMO. Too often I've bought a hotdog from a streetcart, served up by an indifferent dude, the tasteless hotdog having had a hot water bath for hours. Street hotdogs and pizza were much better when I moved to NYC.



I know it's not the same, but I've no doubt you could make amazing examples of them all!


----------



## ian

DitmasPork said:


> Sorry, typo, meant to write Tucsan, not Tuscan. 'Sonoran hot dogs' in Tucsan are awesome.



You mean Tucson?


----------



## DitmasPork

ian said:


> You mean Tucson?


Exactly. Apologies, I'm in a different timezone, my spelling has been affected.


----------



## Rangen

DitmasPork said:


> Exactly. Apologies, I'm in a different timezone, my spelling has been affected.



Well, that would do it. How are things in Brocklynne?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Rangen said:


> Not sure what place was on the show, but I ate twice at Lombardis, and thought it was great. I have since learned that it does not rate highly in the pantheon, but I don't care, I loved it. Also, locals get spoiled. When I was in New Orleans, years ago when Paul Prudhomme was still alive, people told me not to eat at this restaurant, because it had gone downhill. I went anyway, and had one of my top American meals ever. And the best Caesar salad, by far, that I have ever eaten.



Know what a good Caesar salad is. When first 
worked at Kahala fine dining waiters mixed dressing table side. Was working banquets at that time. They needed a night time Gardemanger . Since was doing all the Ice Carvings & pay was slightly better took the job.
By that time no more table side Caesars anymore. Since two restaurants had Caesars 
as did banquets, all from cold kitchen I made the Caesar dressing. At first made one 5 gallon 
Bucket at a time, it would be gone in 4 to 5 days. Said screw this changed to making 10 gallons at a time. Also made croutons & cheese from those big wheels of parm.


----------



## Rangen

I could be wrong, but I think a proper Caesar does not involve making a dressing in advance, but instead coating the lettuce with raw egg, then seasoning.


----------



## ian

I’m not sure what the point of being purist about it is, since recipes change over time and that’s fine, but if you’re defining proper to be “as Cardini made it” I also can’t really find a good answer to that online. Seems like there were a few ingredients, like Worchester and olive oil? Not sure what order he applied them. Interesting to think about the history of it.


----------



## Rangen

ian said:


> I’m not sure what the point of being purist about it is, since recipes change over time and that’s fine, but if you’re defining proper to be “as Cardini made it” I also can’t really find a good answer to that online. Seems like there were a few ingredients, like Worchester and olive oil? Not sure what order he applied them. Interesting to think about the history of it.



My version of "proper" is "whatever made the best version I've ever tasted." I think the one at K-Pauls was made as I describe. I don't know that, of course, but it was different and wonderful in a way that would fit very well with that preparation. And it is very common for wonderful things to be modified because they do not fit with modern efficiencies like making salad dressing in advance. 

Just look at coffee. IMO, after a lot of experimenting, coffee is best within two weeks after it was roasted, and no storage method will change that, not freezing, not vacuum packing. That does not suit, say, Starbucks, with its central mass roasteries. I remember when they had just come out with some potentially interesting single-origin coffees. I saw them when they first appeared. The expiration dates on the bags were months from the moment I was looking at them.


----------



## tcmx3

HumbleHomeCook said:


> With all due respect, there's almost nothing I like about the east coast, but I am extremely jealous of your easy access to amazing ingredients! The ability to just walk down the block and transition from a little convenience shop to an old school Italian meat place to cheese to whatever is amazing!
> 
> There's so much history.
> 
> That is very limited on the west coast and really only in select cities and even then, the broad diversity isn't there.



which part of the east coast? Massachusetts and Florida are a lot more different than where you live and SoCal, but where you live and SoCal are quite different.

New England is a paradise compared to where I live especially when it comes to food. And also I do not agree that NYC food is declining or anything less than the best in the country. Sure some of it's not the best but you try living where I do where the percent of places that are good is vanishingly small. There is not a single place in Austin that can compete with Dominique Ansel Bakery, Levain Bakery, Balthazar, EMP, etc. etc.

Actually we have 2 good pizza places in Austin so at least there's that (Backspace and in distant second Bufalina)

I suppose if you compare the entire state of California to just NYC it probably gets close.


----------



## tcmx3

to be clear we do have some good restaurants here I dont wanna make it sound like Odd Duck, Arlo Grey, or whatever aren't good.

but in New York the % is just way way way higher that the food is actually good. even the stupid stuffy stuff like Per Se or whatever like at least you have that :/


----------



## DitmasPork

Rangen said:


> Well, that would do it. How are things in Brocklynne?



Not there right now, in the middle of the Pacific time zone.

For Brooklyn, I've always liked the old spelling of 'Breukelen.'


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Will say my pre made Caeser dressing was better than any store bought by a mile. All the eggs, anchovies etc put in it. Even 10 gallons never lasted more than 8 to 10 days stored in a cold ice box. So compared to store bought stored at room temp. with preservatives can't compare. It stuck to the romaine fine. I should know made thousands of Caesars for Banquets over couple decades in a big stainless steel bowl right outside banquet room. Waitress taking first ones out as still making salads. As you know Caesar must be served immediate 
after plating. It was a popular salad for Banquets.


----------



## rickbern

Rangen said:


> Well, that would do it. How are things in Brocklynne?


Breukelen

Get the spelling right!

Edit, ditmas got it right too


----------



## ian

Rangen said:


> My version of "proper" is "whatever made the best version I've ever tasted." I think the one at K-Pauls was made as I describe. I don't know that, of course, but it was different and wonderful in a way that would fit very well with that preparation. And it is very common for wonderful things to be modified because they do not fit with modern efficiencies like making salad dressing in advance.
> 
> Just look at coffee. IMO, after a lot of experimenting, coffee is best within two weeks after it was roasted, and no storage method will change that, not freezing, not vacuum packing. That does not suit, say, Starbucks, with its central mass roasteries. I remember when they had just come out with some potentially interesting single-origin coffees. I saw them when they first appeared. The expiration dates on the bags were months from the moment I was looking at them.



Cool, that salad you’re describing sounds amazing! Wish I coulda tasted it. My comment was just that the word proper implies that one doesn’t consider other such dishes (like the ones Keith was mentioning) to be legitimate interpretations of the dish, which is different than “best I ever had”. But whatever, it’s not a big deal. Heh, I’m probably just reliving my response from that other thread where the guy said noone had proper cutting technique. Btw, does proper have the same connotation in British or Aussie english? #offtopic


----------



## Rangen

ian said:


> Cool, that salad you’re describing sounds amazing! Wish I coulda tasted it. My comment was just that the word proper implies that one doesn’t consider other such dishes (like the ones Keith was mentioning) to be legitimate interpretations of the dish, which is different than “best I ever had”. But whatever, it’s not a big deal. Heh, I’m probably just reliving my response from that other thread where the guy said noone had proper cutting technique. Btw, does proper have the same connotation in British or Aussie english? #offtopic



True, the word_ proper_ is bearing a lot of weight here, probably too much. In particular, I tend to assume that if a great dish has survived, it is likely to have had its impact on the world in an optimized form, unlikely to be substantially improved by alterations. So when I tasted the Caesar at K-Paul's, my reaction was "oh, so THIS is a Caesar salad. It is so much better an invention than I knew. Now I understand." Subjective stuff, for sure. It is possible that K-Paul's created a great dish that was much better than the original, but it's not the way I would bet. Add in the fact that the prep I described would be much less convenient than making a dressing in advance, and the whole timeline seemed obvious to me. That doesn't make me right; it's just how it all struck me.

Some of these biases come from my involvement with Chinese cooking, which is rife with classics for which the best one can possibly do is try to execute the classic version as well as you can.


----------



## MarcelNL

Has bread made from premixed flour, and prebaked already been mentioned? It seems that out of 100 bakers 99 cannot bake anymore....PAH, mush sold as bread, no taste, no texture.

Oh and anything the cooks made while being in Berlin for an audio meet last weekend.....I suspected they stashed a Stasi cook away, but the few I saw were far too young to use that as excuse...especially ther version of Calf liver turned into shoe soles was impressive.

BTW: Breukelen is a town in the Netherlands, you know, Captain Hudson working for the VOC (Vereenigde Ostindische Compagnie), Hudson River, New Amsterdam, and all that way back when.


----------



## chefwp

In my last gig in fine dining we did our interpretation of Caesar salad, it included little Parmesan custards which I think were inspired by one of Thomas Keller's recipes, the dressing was pre made by me and I would not keep it more than a few days. We also put roasted tomatoes on it, which is not 'classic.' It also included freshly made frico rounds, made very thin, which was stuck vertically in the custards. My favorite thing about this interpretation was we had these plump juicy lightly cured anchovies, that were not the salt bombs you are used to from your average tin or jar, they were so delicious, they also had a much shorter shelf-life. I occasionally see these at a Market in the strip in Pittsburgh and I'm delighted to snag some every time!

I don't think their is anything wrong with re-interpretting classics, it is a nod to the past, or it wouldn't be done, but it allows room for creativity and evolution. I also don't think there is anything wrong with completely trying to replicate the classic.

A friend of mine teaches music theory at the University of Pittsburgh occasionally. We were talking the other night about the different ways artists 'cover' music pieces. You have on the one hand, artists that honor the original by trying their best to duplicate the style of the original artist. On the other side of the spectrum is when the cover artist reinvents the piece and almost makes it their own, but leave enough intact, esp. the title, to give a proper nod to the artist. My friends favorite example, and one he uses for his class, of the latter is Hendrix's version of "All Along the Watchtower." Musically he completely revamps the song. If I remember correctly my 'lesson' he completely abandons the pentatonic scale where Dylan goes up and down the scale in the original recording, and Hendrix just goes up and up, especially punctuated and to new heights at the very end. Very interestingly, Dylan had never performed it live when Hendrix's version was going global on the radio. When Dylan finally performed it live, he completely adopted Hendrix's style!


----------



## spaceconvoy

Rangen said:


> Some of these biases come from my involvement with Chinese cooking, which is rife with classics for which the best one can possibly do is try to execute the classic version as well as you can.





chefwp said:


> I don't think their is anything wrong with re-interpretting classics, it is a nod to the past, or it wouldn't be done, but it allows room for creativity and evolution. I also don't think there is anything wrong with completely trying to replicate the classic.


Can something less than a hundred years old really be considered a classic? Wonderbread has more history than the Caesar salad.

IMO things shouldn't be considered classics _until_ they've gone through enough iterating to settle on a version that's considered The Best by many different authors. Anyone who says a Caesar salad has to be done a certain way is really just being a stickler for one guy's recipe.


----------



## ian

spaceconvoy said:


> Can something less than a hundred years old really be considered a classic? Wonderbread has more history than the Caesar salad.



Don’t insult my 5000 hours of American history!

More seriously, what Victorian classics am I supposed to put on my dinner table?


----------



## spaceconvoy

ian said:


> Don’t insult my 5000 hours of American history!
> 
> More seriously, what Victorian classics am I supposed to put on i my dinner table?


Cheeseburgers? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

edit: as a former resident of New Haven you should be aware of this


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Roasted tomatoes in a Caesar sounds pretty good. We are salad eaters always make simple 
O&V dressing from scratch. We grow our own organic lettuce. 

Hard to grow large tomatoes in Hawaii except in greenhouse. I was able to grow ping pong ball size very sweet. Made Caesar couple times making dressing right before adding it to good quality romaine. Would through few of those sweet tomato's quartered.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Chinese prepping ingredients ahead adding to hot carbon woks makes for some good grinds.


----------



## DitmasPork

rickbern said:


> Breukelen
> 
> Get the spelling right!
> 
> Edit, ditmas got it right too


Thank you Rock.


----------



## ian

spaceconvoy said:


> Cheeseburgers? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> edit: as a former resident of New Haven you should be aware of this



Hah, I guess Louis of New Haven lunch fame was supposed to have invented thr hamburger in 1900, and the Victorian era ended in 1901. You win.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> I saw a show that made coal fired Pizza in NYC.
> 
> Anybody eat there looked pretty good.


There’re a bunch of notable coal oven pizzas in NYC—Patsy’s, Juliana’s, Lombardi’s, etc. 
Waiting for a upscale, Scottish style, deep fried pizza in NYC.


----------



## DitmasPork

Another overrated food:
LAO GAN MA CHILI CRISP

Over hyped and overrated. Although I often have a jar in the ‘fridge, there’re other chili oils that are better IMO. 

LGM made from cheap oil, too much msg, doesn’t pack much heat, etc.
Taiwanese fermented soy chili oil has been my go-to, cleaner, more direct taste, good punch of heat.

Some of the restaurants in Chinatown sell their housemade chili oil, which are very good.


----------



## big_adventure

MarcelNL said:


> Has bread made from premixed flour, and prebaked already been mentioned? It seems that out of 100 bakers 99 cannot bake anymore....PAH, mush sold as bread, no taste, no texture.



If you ever needed a reason to live in France, this is it. Bread everywhere else is a tragic disappointment. It's not that you can't find bad bread here, it's just that it's a minority: you almost have to try.


----------



## DitmasPork

big_adventure said:


> If you ever needed a reason to live in France, this is it. Bread everywhere else is a tragic disappointment. It's not that you can't find bad bread here, it's just that it's a minority: you almost have to try.


IMO, depends on the area one is in, the bread culture of the food scene, where one shops. Hawaii for instance doesn’t have a great bread culture—especially in the suburbs, where Costco, Foodland and Safeway rule the bread kingdom. Not surprising for an island where rice and noodles are favored.

I’ve had terrible bread in France when dating a Parisian. She lived in one of the rougher arrondissements.

In the states, it’s not difficult for me to find awesome bread in the major food(ie) cities like NYC, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Portland (Maine and Oregon), etc.—where there’s been a renaissance of artisan bakers cranking out impressive loaves.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Loves bakery here went under during pandemic their bread was bad typical white soft sliced loafs. They quality was even getting worse toward the end uneven slices on hamburger buns.
To me the best bread in Hawaii is from the 
Bali bakery


----------



## big_adventure

DitmasPork said:


> IMO, depends on the area one is in, the bread culture of the food scene, where one shops. Hawaii for instance doesn’t have a great bread culture—especially in the suburbs, where Costco, Foodland and Safeway rule the bread kingdom. Not surprising for an island where rice and noodles are favored.
> 
> I’ve had terrible bread in France when dating a Parisian. She lived in one of the rougher arrondissements.
> 
> In the states, it’s not difficult for me to find awesome bread in the major food(ie) cities like NYC, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Portland (Maine and Oregon), etc.—where there’s been a renaissance of artisan bakers cranking out impressive loaves.



First, there are no "rough" arrondissements in Paris. Paris is a very safe city basically, plus arrondissements are massive. There are areas and neighborhoods that are more run down then others but none span anything like an entire arrondissement. As long as you know how to order bread and what kind of place to go to (avoid chain supermarkets, avoid all night / late night bakeries), it is almost impossible to have bad bread. 

I've had artisan bread from "the best bakery of XXXX" in NYC, SF (lived there for years), LA, NO, Chicago, Portland and others : nearly all of it has been stuff that would get a bakery shut down in Paris.


----------



## spaceconvoy

Keith Sinclair said:


> To me the best bread in Hawaii is from the
> Bali bakery


Yes! They looked at me funny but I would buy plain banh mi rolls from the campus Ba Le to sustain my bread cravings when I went to school there. Probably the only good impact the French had on Vietnam.



DitmasPork said:


> Hawaii for instance doesn’t have a great bread culture—especially in the suburbs, where Costco, Foodland and Safeway rule the bread kingdom. Not surprising for an island where rice and noodles are favored.


We went on a class trip to Europe one summer and nearly all the local kids complained about being forced to eat bread for breakfast every day. The few mainlanders were in heaven of course. I remember we once walked by a Chinese restaurant and they went wild for the smell of cooked rice. They were pretty disappointed that we had to keep going to stay on schedule.


----------



## DitmasPork

big_adventure said:


> First, there are no "rough" arrondissements in Paris. Paris is a very safe city basically, plus arrondissements are massive. There are areas and neighborhoods that are more run down then others but none span anything like an entire arrondissement. As long as you know how to order bread and what kind of place to go to (avoid chain supermarkets, avoid all night / late night bakeries), it is almost impossible to have bad bread.
> 
> I've had artisan bread from "the best bakery of XXXX" in NYC, SF (lived there for years), LA, NO, Chicago, Portland and others : nearly all of it has been stuff that would get a bakery shut down in Paris.



She lived in the 18th, this was in 1999–2001. Had both great and terrible bread in Paris—same with NYC, SF, etc. Baking bread is a learned craft, not an innate talent. With French restaurants, admittedly, I've had better French meals at French restaurants in NYC and London than in Paris. Not a blanket statement on which city has better food—but there's a lot of talented chef's cooking up fine French food outside of France.


----------



## DitmasPork

spaceconvoy said:


> Yes! They looked at me funny but I would buy plain banh mi rolls from the campus Ba Le to sustain my bread cravings when I went to school there. Probably the only good impact the French had on Vietnam.
> 
> 
> We went on a class trip to Europe one summer and nearly all the local kids complained about being forced to eat bread for breakfast every day. The few mainlanders were in heaven of course. I remember we once walked by a Chinese restaurant and they went wild for the smell of cooked rice. They were pretty disappointed that we had to keep going to stay on schedule.



Hahahahah! Classic. I few years ago I was forced to go on a cruise liner for a family vacation—there I encounters the worse wonton noodle soup in the world—I sad bowl with 3 fried gyoza floating in canned chicken stock, with ribbons on carrot. I called over the waiter to send it back and complain, about the lack of proper wontons and omission of noodles. The server responded saying that the carrot ribbons were the chef's interpretation of noodles—chef was from Switzerland.

Fact: For a Chinese eater, expectations can be high when wonton noodle soup is listed on the menu.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

True rice is the staple here. Not too much quality bread. Most bake shops make cakes, pies, pastries, all loaded with sugar. 

It may have been the location, but I'll never forget the early morning smell of bake shop 
on the island of Kea in Greece. Eating fresh baked bread for breakfast.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> True rice is the staple here. Not too much quality bread. Most bake shops make cakes, pies, pastries, all loaded with sugar.
> 
> It may have been the location, but I'll never forget the early morning smell of bake shop
> on the island of Kea in Greece. Eating fresh baked bread for breakfast.



Dude. What's with all the purple bread in Hawaii?? Think a couple of the upscale bakeries in Ala Moana have good bread. In my Brooklyn neighborhood, my go-to breads has been fresh tandir breads from the Pakistani and Uzbek joints.


----------



## MarcelNL

I just started a batch of chilli oil, was fed up with the MSG for a while now....

next thing I know I'm making my own bread and butchering my own meat...


----------



## Keith Sinclair

All that purple bread is taro. Taro everything these days. I eat poi with Hawaiian food. My better half doesn't.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> All that purple bread is taro. Taro everything these days. I eat poi with Hawaiian food. My better half doesn't.


My wife hates poi. Saw purple/taro malasadas the other day. I’m conservative, prefer the standard, malasadas rolled in just sugar.


----------



## big_adventure

DitmasPork said:


> She lived in the 18th, this was in 1999–2001. Had both great and terrible bread in Paris—same with NYC, SF, etc. Baking bread is a learned craft, not an innate talent. With French restaurants, admittedly, I've had better French meals at French restaurants in NYC and London than in Paris. Not a blanket statement on which city has better food—but there's a lot of talented chef's cooking up fine French food outside of France.



Of course it's a learned craft, it's just that it's a ridiculously huge part of the culture in France, more than basically anywhere else in the world, and especially in the biggest, wealthiest city in the country, competition if fierce if you don't do it right. Finding good bread in San Francisco means crossing half the city to that one place that might have a decent baguette. And at best, it's mid-tier for Paris. 

And as far as you eating better French meals in NYC and London, well, that's coming down to restaurant choice and perhaps your own preferences. You have to compare equal-level places. Paris has a lot of amazing restaurants, along with a culinary culture permitting them to casually charge a few hundred per person just for the food to get the very best stuff possible served in the most effort-intensive ways (two plates of vegetables at Arpège will run you over 350 euros). If you are comparing the corner brasserie to Per Se, Le Bernardin or the French Laundry, yeah, Ripert or Keller's plates are vastly superior. But if you are comparing those high-end foodie meccas to le Grand Véfour, Pierre Gagnaire or Ledoyen? Yeah, not so much. And yes, I've eaten at all of them, multiple times. I've met Keller, I've taken a cooking class with him (Mondavi Great Chef's series, 2002 I believe), he's a brilliant, creative chef (with a horrible reservation policy) and I love his food. But it's not _better_ than high-end places in Paris.


----------



## Vdark

MarcelNL said:


> I just started a batch of chilli oil, was fed up with the MSG for a while now....
> 
> next thing I know I'm making my own bread and butchering my own meat...


recipe?


----------



## MarcelNL

500ml organic sunflower oil
whole garlic bulb peeled
3 medium shallots quartered
stick of cinnamon
4 star anise

put on low heat, wait until it bubbles

add
2 tblsp sichuan pepper (using red and green)
3 bay leaves
1 tblsp fennel seeds

and simmer for half an hour
set aside overnight

sieve

bring to heat (120 'C)
add in small quantities to 80-100g of chilli flakes
allow to cool and sit for a while

sieve or not ....

definitely no lao gan ma but I'll give it a whirl, and so far it's dead easy so it'll be fun to experiment with different combo's


----------



## Vdark

I've been using Adam Liaw's recipe for a bit and it's nice but wanted so see if I could switch it up a bit





__





Red Chilli Oil for Dumplings – adamliaw.com






adamliaw.com


----------



## MarcelNL

Vdark said:


> I've been using Adam Liaw's recipe for a bit and it's nice but wanted so see if I could switch it up a bit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red Chilli Oil for Dumplings – adamliaw.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adamliaw.com


looks similar, and I bet you can easily come up with additions...just adding some fermented black beans etc

edit, I have a shitload pull biber (for shish kebab) I may give a go sometime, o and Isot Biber..smokey chocolaty chilli oil


----------



## Michi

big_adventure said:


> If you ever needed a reason to live in France, this is it. Bread everywhere else is a tragic disappointment.


Not so sure about that. Bread in Switzerland, Austria, and Germany is up there with the best in the world.


----------



## DitmasPork

big_adventure said:


> Of course it's a learned craft, it's just that it's a ridiculously huge part of the culture in France, more than basically anywhere else in the world, and especially in the biggest, wealthiest city in the country, competition if fierce if you don't do it right. Finding good bread in San Francisco means crossing half the city to that one place that might have a decent baguette. And at best, it's mid-tier for Paris.
> 
> And as far as you eating better French meals in NYC and London, well, that's coming down to restaurant choice and perhaps your own preferences. You have to compare equal-level places. Paris has a lot of amazing restaurants, along with a culinary culture permitting them to casually charge a few hundred per person just for the food to get the very best stuff possible served in the most effort-intensive ways (two plates of vegetables at Arpège will run you over 350 euros). If you are comparing the corner brasserie to Per Se, Le Bernardin or the French Laundry, yeah, Ripert or Keller's plates are vastly superior. But if you are comparing those high-end foodie meccas to le Grand Véfour, Pierre Gagnaire or Ledoyen? Yeah, not so much. And yes, I've eaten at all of them, multiple times. I've met Keller, I've taken a cooking class with him (Mondavi Great Chef's series, 2002 I believe), he's a brilliant, creative chef (with a horrible reservation policy) and I love his food. But it's not _better_ than high-end places in Paris.



Yes, yes, obviously comes down to restaurant choices as you say—that's just my point, great and capable cooks doing French cuisine on both sides of the pond.


----------



## BillHanna

Chicken salad with fruit in it.


no.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

In a high quality bread starved state, We really like when Costco bakery makes the cranberry 
walnut bread for the holidays. I wish Costco would bake good bread all year long. Got this 
today.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

What we do have is great Avocados. This small seed large avocado is buttery & great taste.

Except for you avocado haters fools stick to your organ meats, deep fried candy bars, I'm Scottish decent but I won't eat that garbage


----------



## panda

DitmasPork said:


> *New York hotdogs; New York pizza; New York bagels—all terribly overrated. *
> 
> I say this as a proud New Yorker, having lived in NYC for over 30 years. Sure there’re some of the best hotdogs and pizza to be had in NYC, but generally, the average pizza, hotdogs and bagels suck.
> 
> Ok:
> • Montreal makes the best bagels
> • Tucsan and Chicago got the best hotdogs
> • San Francisco, New Haven, and Zagreb do better pizzas than NYC—unless trekking to one of the pizza temples like Di Fara, Totonno’s; or trendy joints like Roberta’s.


di farra is the beat pizza I've ever had. even better than the ones in Sicily cooked in 100 year old.oven with the best tasting tomatoes ever.

Chicago def the best hotdogs
I also prefer Chicago Italian beef sandwich over Philly cheesesteak.


----------



## Slim278

A friend of mine went to a local carnival this summer in search of fat girls and funnel cake


----------



## McMan

panda said:


> Chicago def the best hotdogs
> I also prefer Chicago Italian beef sandwich over Philly cheesesteak.


Yup. Me too.
After Chi dogs come RI chili dogs ("system" wieners) then MI coneys then DC half-smoke.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

panda said:


> di farra is the beat pizza I've ever had. even better than the ones in Sicily cooked in 100 year old.oven with the best tasting tomatoes ever.
> 
> Chicago def the best hotdogs
> I also prefer Chicago Italian beef sandwich over Philly cheesesteak.



How are the di fara pizzas made. I would imagine lots of choices of quality ingredients.


----------



## big_adventure

Michi said:


> Not so sure about that. Bread in Switzerland, Austria, and Germany is up there with the best in the world.



I have to disagree in general. You _can_ get great bread in Switzerland, Austria and Germany, but it's not consistent. Most bread in all three countries is pretty meh, from my experience, and I have traveled a fair amount. It's better there than in Spain or Italy, sure, but that's damning with exceedingly faint praise.


----------



## DitmasPork

panda said:


> di farra is the beat pizza I've ever had. even better than the ones in Sicily cooked in 100 year old.oven with the best tasting tomatoes ever.
> 
> Chicago def the best hotdogs
> I also prefer Chicago Italian beef sandwich over Philly cheesesteak.


Oh man! Chicago Italian beef sandwiches are awesome.


----------



## Helicon

big_adventure said:


> I've had artisan bread from "the best bakery of XXXX" in NYC, SF (lived there for years), LA, NO, Chicago, Portland and others : nearly all of it has been stuff that would get a bakery shut down in Paris.


Maybe you weren't going to the right places? I lived in San Francisco for most of my life and the bread there was only getting better and better before I moved abroad. Certainly there was no shortage of bakeries that turned out amazing loaves and pastries. Just for example: Tartine, The Mill, B. Patisserie, Arsicault, Devil's Teeth, Craftsman and Wolves, and Arizmendi.

What makes the bread in France impressive is that bakeries continue to churn out loaves all day long, so even if you stop by at 5 in the afternoon you're going to get something very fresh. Most artisinal American bread bakeries bake everything in the early morning hours and sell it over the course of the day. For large loaves this is less important, but for baguettes it's a huge disadvantage. Oh, and bread in France is comparatively very inexpensive! I think prices are regulated to some degree, but it's not uncommon for an organic baguette to cost less than €1. So, for baguettes I'd always choose Paris, but for other loaves I'd probably opt for SF any day of the week.


----------



## MarcelNL

it's also my experience that bread in Germany, Austria and Switzerland is pretty good, when you avoid supermarkets and yes there are bakers that are crap...but far less than where I live where finding a good one is a quest.
(I have one 15km away and one in town, both make honest loooong proofed sourdough without anything that should not be in bread, whereas there are like 8 bakers in a 3km radius and none of them are worth their salt)

In the US I have bought Artisanal bread once, somewhere in the upper west side of NYC (10-11Av or thereabouts), at one of the supposedly 'best' and it left me underwhelmed until I remembered what supermarket and hotel bread usually is (I avoid it like the plague when in the US).


----------



## BillHanna

Slim278 said:


> A friend of mine went to a local carnival this summer in search of fat girls and funnel cake


Just tag me next time, geez.


----------



## riba

MarcelNL said:


> (I have one 15km away and one in town, both make honest loooong proofed sourdough without anything that should not be in bread, whereas there are like 8 bakers in a 3km radius and none of them are worth their salt)


Where are you shopping? We tend to go to Broodt (Eindhoven) and Bij Robert (Oisterwijk).


----------



## panda

that being said, I still very much enjoy shaved chopped ribeye with Cooper white American cheese folded in with extra onions washed down with some root beer. mmm now I'm hungry


----------



## Luftmensch

ian said:


> Btw, does proper have the same connotation in British or Aussie english? #offtopic





Context is everything. I'd say it is a neutral word? That said, the existence of the word implies the existence of the 'improper'. As a result you can imbue the word 'improper' with negative connotations depending on how you choose the supporting words around it?

The main uses are:

Referencing some correct, authentic or genuine standard (e.g. the proper way to make a Caesar salad)
Regarding polite and respectable manners (e.g. the chef who taught me this Caesar salad recipe was a proper man)
More colloquially, used for emphasis (e.g. this Caesar salad is properly f*cked!)

So yeah... it can definitely have stank. I'd say when the discussion is about objective things, proper is neutral. There is a proper colour for a uniform (the right colour is true by designation). But there is no 'proper' colour for a casual t-shirt - that is subjective. To use the word proper in that context is opinionated. People who do that are not proper.


----------



## Luftmensch

Keith Sinclair said:


> What we do have is great Avocados. This small seed large avocado is buttery & great taste.
> 
> Except for you avocado haters fools stick to your organ meats, deep fried candy bars, I'm Scottish decent but I won't eat that garbageView attachment 146897



Dont forget to save the peel for your next coffee!


----------



## Luftmensch

big_adventure said:


> And as far as you eating better French meals in NYC and London, well, that's coming down to restaurant choice and perhaps your own preferences. You have to compare equal-level places.



NYC disappointed me. London met my expectations (not high).

I have zero doubts that NYC and London have a greater number of super-fancy-awesome restaurants than Australia. The thing is, like you say, I am not really a foodie. I cant compare the best of the best. I dont go to those places at home... and I dont go to those places overseas. I thought food at the 'ground-level' in NYC and London was on average... average... maybe even mediocre.

It probably isnt where you are... so much as what they make. The chowders and bisques in New England, USA were great. The mexican and tex-mex on the USA west coast is pretty great. At the right pubs in London (not massive chains), the lunches are hearty and good value - awesome beer selections!


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I've worked with French, German, & Swiss chefs. They were good learned from all of them.
Locals have gone on to become chefs & own their own places because of EU chefs that came here & married local girls.


----------



## cotedupy

Luftmensch said:


> NYC disappointed me. London met my expectations (not high).
> 
> I have zero doubts that NYC and London have a greater number of super-fancy-awesome restaurants than Australia. The thing is, like you say, I am not really a foodie. I cant compare the best of the best. I dont go to those places at home... and I dont go to those places overseas. I thought food at the 'ground-level' in NYC and London was on average... average... maybe even mediocre.
> 
> It probably isnt where you are... so much as what they make. The chowders and bisques in New England, USA were great. The mexican and tex-mex on the USA west coast is pretty great. At the right pubs in London (not massive chains), the lunches are hearty and good value - awesome beer selections!



I think is probably a fair assessment/generalization of the London restaurant scene. Especially if your visit was more than about 10 years ago. It has changed quite a lot in the last 5 or 10 years, but you'd still want to have some local knowledge; your chances of wandering into somewhere excellent by chance are probably still lower than here. 

I worked in the wine and restaurant industry in London for the last decade, so it wasn't much of an issue for me - a significant part of my job was knowing about, and going to, good/new/cool restaurants. But there's an awful lot of pretty average places in between the brilliant ones.

The reasons for this are obviously complex, and there are an awful lot more chains in the UK than Aus, but there are a few other surprising things that play into it, particularly with regard to London. There are a significant number of places that operate for either money laundering, or have investment for tax reasons. And really having any customers at all is something of an inconvenience in those situations.

See also - the sheer number of Bureau de Change there are in London, which are effectively just nice easy ways to clean money. Ditto betting shops. There are _a lot_ of betting shops in the UK, and they make the majority of their money from Fixed Odds Betting Terminals, or 'pokies'. Even though barely anybody uses them - we don't have the pokies culture in the UK that there is here. 

In the UK you can 'gamble' a huge amount of money in almost no time on a FOBT. You can also be arrested by the police if they search you and you have more than a certain amount of cash on your person without a valid, legal reason for having it. But if you are, for instance, a drug dealer - you can walk into any high street betting shop with £5,000, and walk out 5 minutes later with £4,800 and a receipt saying you won it on a _fixed odds _betting terminal.

Or at least you could. I've just read that, after years of campaigning, the maximum stake on FOBTs was reduced last year from £100 to £2.

[End of my slight diversion about how to launder money in the UK!]


----------



## Luftmensch

cotedupy said:


> There are a significant number of places that operate for either money laundering, or have investment for tax reasons. And really having any customers at all is something of an inconvenience in those situations.
> 
> See also - the sheer number of Bureau de Change there are in London, which are effectively just nice easy ways to clean money. Ditto betting shops. There are _a lot_ of betting shops in the UK, and they make the majority of their money from Fixed Odds Betting Terminals, or 'pokies'. Even though barely anybody uses them - we don't have the pokies culture in the UK that there is here.



Holly crap! How well represented is this? That is insane... I would have thought: fast food; produce standards; acceptance of pre-processed foods. Money laundering wouldnt have remotely entered my mind!

Dont get me wrong... I dont mean to paint Australia as some sort of food mecca. Of course I am biased and am likely to have a palate and sensibility adjusted to where I live. I have been to London and New York several times now. They are both _amazing_ cities and really fun to visit. Like you say... pick a regular restaurant at random and I suspect *I* would enjoy the food more at the one in Sydney/Melbourne. One thing is for sure, Australia is pretty expensive.

A big difference is Asian food. Australia is just so effortlessly and unpretentiously good at 'Asian' food. I say 'Asian' because it isnt... you go to a Malaysian restaurant if you want Malaysian, you go to a Vietnamese restaurant if you want Vietnameses... and so on. Pan-Asian restaurants havent been popular in Sydney and Melbourne since what? The 80's/90's?? I think this advantage is dissolving... major cities everywhere have advanced a lot in the past 30 years.

Indian... I reckon London probably has better ubiquitous indian than Sydney/Melbourne???



cotedupy said:


> Especially if your visit was more than about 10 years ago.



 I think a wee bit less... but around that yeah!




Spain though... F'me... I had a blast eating my way through there... They had a really relaxed culture. Now that I think about it... I really like places with zero pomp... just decent food at decent prices. People having a good time. But who doesnt!? One thing about Spain... they have a different service culture (no judgement). It seemed a bit more perfunctory. The norm seemed like one harried waiter managing 30(?) people instead of a more 'anglo' one waiter per 10. I felt customers were expected to assert their own needs rather than having staff fawn over their experience.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> Loves bakery here went under during pandemic their bread was bad typical white soft sliced loafs. They quality was even getting worse toward the end uneven slices on hamburger buns.
> To me the best bread in Hawaii is from the
> Bali bakery



I miss King's Bakery. Their sweet bread better when baked in the islands, their coffee shops a dependable hangout. I've accepted noshing on sourdough rounds from Safeway to tide me over until I return to NYC for better bread.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Wow your going back. Used to eat breakfast there the guy cooking it on the grill right in front of you. Macadamia cream pies.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> Wow your going back. Used to eat breakfast there the guy cooking it on the grill right in front of you. Macadamia cream pies.


Circa 80s.


----------



## MarcelNL

riba said:


> Where are you shopping? We tend to go to Broodt (Eindhoven) and Bij Robert (Oisterwijk).


Robert in Oisterwijck and Pig and Rye in Tilburg it is for me!


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Think Honolulu because of ethnic diversity has some pretty good eating places. Even hole in the wall with good ethnic food.


----------



## riba

MarcelNL said:


> Robert in Oisterwijck and Pig and Rye in Tilburg it is for me!


Tnx. Pig and Rye goes on the list for when I'm in the neighborhood


----------



## MarcelNL

riba said:


> Tnx. Pig and Rye goes on the list for when I'm in the neighborhood


He started a few years ago as 'Sourdough'and then made very dense sourdough, nowadays his bread can compete with the Robert loaf, and I personally favor it! No additives other than water four and salt and sourdough mother.
FWIW he won best sourdough in 2018, somewhere (think almost every baker has such a prize, there must be millions of contests)


----------



## cotedupy

Umm... it's quite widespread probably. The southern Italian Ndrangheta mafia is now easily the largest of Italy's three mafias, and I think the largest criminal organisation in the world, despite being still relatively unknown. It basically has no ground presence in the UK whatsoever (though strong ties to the Albanian gangs who control much of the UK and Europe's drug supply). But has been using the UK for some time to clean quite extraordinary amounts of money through seemingly innocuous businesses:









London used as 'money-laundering base', mafia trial prosecutor says


In Italy’s largest mafia trial in three decades, the UK's capital has been roped in as a potential hotspot for organised crime, particularly post-Brexit.




www.cityam.com













Balham bistro used to launder dirty money by powerful Italian Mafia


A much-loved family restaurant in Balham was run by the linchpin for one of the world's most powerful and murderously ruthless Mafia organisations,…




www.wandsworthguardian.co.uk





---

Asian, particularly most SE Asain, and Cantonese are very good here. The 'average' level is notably higher than the UK. Exceptions are; Thai, which I despair of here. And obviously Indian and Pakistani.

I spent quite a while after I moved quizzing any Indian person I met about places to go, as I felt sure there must be a few 'insider secret' type places doing it well. But was met time and again a crestfallen shake of the head, and recommendations that began along the lines of: 'Well this is where I go, but it isn't very good...'


----------



## MarcelNL

Luftmensch said:


> Dont forget to save the peel for your next coffee!


no [email protected]#$&ing around with coffee please


----------



## ian

Luftmensch said:


> Context is everything. I'd say it is a neutral word? That said, the existence of the word implies the existence of the 'improper'. As a result you can imbue the word 'improper' with negative connotations depending on how you choose the supporting words around it?
> 
> The main uses are:
> 
> Referencing some correct, authentic or genuine standard (e.g. the proper way to make a Caesar salad)
> Regarding polite and respectable manners (e.g. the chef who taught me this Caesar salad recipe was a proper man)
> More colloquially, used for emphasis (e.g. this Caesar salad is properly f*cked!)
> 
> So yeah... it can definitely have stank. I'd say when the discussion is about objective things, proper is neutral. There is a proper colour for a uniform (the right colour is true by designation). But there is no 'proper' colour for a casual t-shirt - that is subjective. To use the word proper in that context is opinionated. People who do that are not proper.



Sounds all the same as here, although I was under the impression that maybe it’s used in the 2nd and 3rd contexts slightly more over there than over here. Right proper response, that.


----------



## Ochazuke

I'd like to call Boston an overrated food city, but I don't think anybody thinks of it as a food city. @ian & @Bensbites & @Runner_up - I moved here in February of 2020 and then COVID happened shortly after. I'm thinking I have a fairly skewed perception of the city. What's your take on Boston food and is there anywhere in particular I should check out?


----------



## daveb

Ochazuke said:


> What's your take on Boston food and ......



I've heard the beans are good.


----------



## Bensbites

Ochazuke said:


> I'd like to call Boston an overrated food city, but I don't think anybody thinks of it as a food city. @ian & @Bensbites & @Runner_up - I moved here in February of 2020 and then COVID happened shortly after. I'm thinking I have a fairly skewed perception of the city. What's your take on Boston food and is there anywhere in particular I should check out?


I think there are things that are top notch if they fit your style. I am the first person to admit I have the tastebuds of a 12 yr old. I am very happy with a good burger or pizza. 

I am told I am a pretty good home cook and therefor when we eat out, it’s more about more than just the food. 

try Jinny’s or max and Leo’s for pizza. I am a fan of buttonwood as well.

my wife likes sushico in Newton centre. Between young kids and Covid we haven’t gotten out the same way we did 10 yrs ago.

if you ever want to chat food or knives over coffee let me know. 
b.


----------



## ian

Ochazuke said:


> I'd like to call Boston an overrated food city, but I don't think anybody thinks of it as a food city. @ian & @Bensbites & @Runner_up - I moved here in February of 2020 and then COVID happened shortly after. I'm thinking I have a fairly skewed perception of the city. What's your take on Boston food and is there anywhere in particular I should check out?



Like Ben, I haven't really been out much since my kid came along years ago. My general take is that it's nowhere near as nice a food scene as something like Chicago, but I've had some pretty good meals here and there. I've hardly ever been to the fancy places downtown (although I do remember a great meal at Neptune Oyster when I first got to Boston) since my life is mostly spent in Roslindale, Jamaica Plain, Brookline and Newton. Probably Brassica in Jamaica Plain is the restaurant that I go to most frequently that I like the best. (Someone needs to tell them to have more light options, though, as their menu usually has like 15 heavy dishes and then maybe one other thing.) I'm also fond of some tapas places like Tres Gatos in JP and Barcelona in Brookline, I've had some good dishes here and there in Chinatown, and I eat too many burritos from Chilacates and El Pelon. But sadly, I'm not the person to ask about the "food scene" anymore.


----------



## rickbern

I keep fixating on an image of roger verges in his garden with a wheelbarrow full of freshly picked produce he’s bringing to his kitchen to cook and serve for the evening meal. The reality is that as ambitious as chefs around here are, other than maybe a scant two months out of the year our raw materials are not first class and it’s tough to exceed that with which you start. 

I know, sometimes I go to the farmers market and I get great produce picked the day before and rushed by speeding truck to my door, but it’s still not as good as what i can get at my cousins house in the hamptons in September when they’re picking it that day and we’re eating it that night. 

I doubt there could be a restaurant in NYC as good as Chez panisse was back in its heyday; we just ain’t got the right stuff to start with.


----------



## rickbern

rickbern said:


> I keep fixating on an image of roger verges in his garden with a wheelbarrow full of freshly picked produce he’s bringing to his kitchen to cook and serve for the evening meal. The reality is that as ambitious as chefs around here are, other than maybe a scant two months out of the year our raw materials are not first class and it’s tough to exceed that with which you start.
> 
> I know, sometimes I go to the farmers market and I get great produce picked the day before and rushed by speeding truck to my door, but it’s still not as good as what i can get at my cousins house in the hamptons in September when they’re picking it that day and we’re eating it that night.
> 
> I doubt there could be a restaurant in NYC as good as Chez panisse was back in its heyday; we just ain’t got the right stuff to start with.


Can’t find the photo but there’s a couple of recipes here. I’ll never see either a cherry tomato or a fava bean as good as he used on a daily basis






Roger Vergé's Vegetables in the French Style: Vergé, Roger, Touillon, Bernard: 9781885183040: Amazon.com: Books


Roger Vergé's Vegetables in the French Style [Vergé, Roger, Touillon, Bernard] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Roger Vergé's Vegetables in the French Style



www.amazon.com


----------



## tcmx3

Ochazuke said:


> I'd like to call Boston an overrated food city, but I don't think anybody thinks of it as a food city. @ian & @Bensbites & @Runner_up - I moved here in February of 2020 and then COVID happened shortly after. I'm thinking I have a fairly skewed perception of the city. What's your take on Boston food and is there anywhere in particular I should check out?



Boston food is good, not spectacular IMO.

My favorite place closed, but there's still some good places: Petit Robert Bistro, Cafe Sauvage, Juliet, Atlantic Fish, Bostonia Public House. Sorry been a while since I lived there so I have only had a chance to stop in a few places in the past couple of years.


----------



## DitmasPork

Paris is an overrated food city.

Don’t get me wrong—I love Paris, have eaten some of the best meals in my life there; adore the Parisian food culture; French gastronomy important in shaping my cooking; spent much time there eating across the city; have been a kitchen Francophile for three decades—but TBH there’re many other cities that excite me more. Other cities around the world have caught up to Paris regarding food, reputation, etc. Akin to how there’s parity with wine, French wine no longer untouchable. When thinking of which French cities top my hit list for ‘must-eat French food cities,’ Paris would probably rank maybe 5th. Yeah, Paris is a wonderful, awesome food city—but like many other food capitals there’re great, mediocre and bad restaurants—food culture, restaurants, ambitious chefs in other cities capture my imagination, inspire, more.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Not all , but much our fruits & vegetables come from our garden & the farmers market. So much of produce in supermarket is bred for looks & shelf life. Taste suffers. 

Found Verge's vegetable book French style used on thrift books shipped for 5.85 we eat a lot of fresh vegetables these days.


----------



## parbaked

big_adventure said:


> Finding good bread in San Francisco means crossing half the city to that one place that might have a decent baguette. And at best, it's mid-tier for Paris.


SF bread scene has developed a lot since you left, but it is not baguette focused. 
Instead of mimicking French bakeries as they used to, the better bakers focus on long fermented sourdough varieties. I wouldn’t judge a bread culture on just baguettes.
This is a partial view of my neighborhood bakery, which does also make good baguettes…


----------



## DitmasPork

parbaked said:


> SF bread scene has developed a lot since you left, but it is not baguette focused.
> Instead of mimicking French bakeries,the better bakers focus on long fermented sourdough varieties. I wouldn’t judge a bread culture on just baguettes.



I never had a problem finding good bread when I lived in the Bay Area.


----------



## Luftmensch

DitmasPork said:


> When thinking of which French cities top my hit list for ‘must-eat French food cities,’ Paris would probably rank maybe 5th.



Oh go on then. You just made a rod for your own back  Now youre going to have to list your top four


----------



## MarcelNL

I'm pretty sure that most larger cities the majority of countries have nice places to eat, it is just a matter of finding them. For that I usually ask around, go find someone from the secret brotherhood of foodies in the local office and ask them to point me at a few places where they think the best local food is served.

Having travelled extensively for work in the past 20 years or so I've been over- and underwhelmed in almost any city but mostly enjoyed the food.....Scallops in a little place in the harbor of Boston, Dumplings in the center of Boston, Fresh fish (rigor mortis just set in) in Porto, traditional food in Lisbon's old Jewish Quarter, Great 'fusion' food in Madrid, best Polpa ever in Santander, super Indian food in Paris (go figure), Risotto Milanese in ...Milan, Bagna Cauda in Rome, traditional Chinese in Shanghai, sortof DIY group Okonomiyaki on a teppanyaki plate in Tokyo(my recollection MAY be impaired due to some sake and beer), Sushi in Osaka after a private tour of the impressive aquarium, the chicken sashimi during the H1N5 flu in Osaka on another trip, Avant Garde food in Stockholm, Seafood at the airport of Copenhagen, dinner in a hotel restaurant in Copenhagen that blew me away so much I had dinner there on 4 consecutive evenings.
The list is long and I forgot plenty of it due to the sheer number of occasions...the good invariably involved inside knowledge of the locals and mostly prices were quite reasonable, the bad were poorly informed choices following things like tripadvisor (guess my taste is not main stream enough), the ugly usually followed uninformed spur of the moment choices,...


----------



## Campbell

Donuts are overrated.


----------



## MarcelNL

bagels too


----------



## sansho

sausage as a pizza topping

vodka sauce for pasta

bay leaves that aren't fresh or freshly dried
kinda joking on this one, but it took me a long time to realize that most bay leaves in people's cupboards are bսllshit.


----------



## MarcelNL

dried bay leaves SUCK.....


----------



## MarcelNL

in fact most herbs in peoples cupboards are %#$#[email protected]


----------



## Michi

MarcelNL said:


> in fact most herbs in peoples cupboards are %#$#[email protected]


Most herbs fade quickly once dried. If someone wants to elevate their cooking, one of the cheapest and most effective ways is to start a herb garden. One or two planters or pots on the balcony, or get one of those indoor herb gardens with a grow light, or grow some herbs in your garden bed, whatever.

There is room for a few herbs in even the smallest kitchen, and they make a big difference.


----------



## zizirex

Rreidiii said:


> FYI the drug cartels stole property of many avocado growers and make more money on avocados than drugs.




They make a documentary about it.

I Gotta say, this Avocado Toast sh*t is getting out of hands.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

The volcanic soil in Hawaii is perfect for growing avocados. When sugar went down that agriculture land was empty. Over the years small farms have grown different vegetables.
No avocado orchards. Some of land has been turned into housing developments.

IMO our avocados are larger & taste better than the high export Haas brand coming from Mexico. We should be shipping to mainland.


----------



## Dhoff

Keith Sinclair said:


> Roasted tomatoes in a Caesar sounds pretty good. We are salad eaters always make simple
> O&V dressing from scratch. We grow our own organic lettuce.
> 
> Hard to grow large tomatoes in Hawaii except in greenhouse. I was able to grow ping pong ball size very sweet. Made Caesar couple times making dressing right before adding it to good quality romaine. Would through few of those sweet tomato's quartered.



Read through the thread, and got curious mate; Why is it hard to grow tomatoes on Hawaii?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Too many critters attack the plants. Subtropical environments have many tiny life forms. 

For some reason cherry tomatoes can be grown. Larger tomatoes only in greenhouse. Where they have protection. So I buy at farmers market. A retired policeman on big island of Hawaii did research & built a greenhouse. 

Now another greenhouse on Oahu. Those are best tasting large tomatoes you can get here. 
The tomatoes sold in the stores lack flavor. 
They are cheaper & a lot of people don't know 
what a vine ripened sweet tomato taste like.


----------



## Dhoff

Keith Sinclair said:


> Too many critters attack the plants. Subtropical environments have many tiny life forms.
> 
> For some reason cherry tomatoes can be grown. Larger tomatoes only in greenhouse. Where they have protection. So I buy at farmers market. A retired policeman on big island of Hawaii did research & built a greenhouse.
> 
> Now another greenhouse on Oahu. Those are best tasting large tomatoes you can get here.
> The tomatoes sold in the stores lack flavor.
> They are cheaper & a lot of people don't know
> what a vine ripened sweet tomato taste like.



Makes sense, thank you. And i completely agree, although not limited to tomatoes, so many fruits and vegetables are not ripe or even near it when shipped leading to it tasting nothing like it should


----------



## e30Birdy

MarcelNL said:


> Has bread made from premixed flour, and prebaked already been mentioned? It seems that out of 100 bakers 99 cannot bake anymore....PAH, mush sold as bread, no taste, no texture.



This is exactly why I make my own. Nothing but sour dough which is 12 years old, salt, flour and water. I cant stand most boughten bread. We have one bakery that actually makes good bread here but I know up north in Speyer there is a place called Brot Puristen that make amazing bread and nothing else.

Problem is now a days most use premix with enzymes and junk in there.


----------



## big_adventure

e30Birdy said:


> This is exactly why I make my own. Nothing but sour dough which is 12 years old, salt, flour and water. I cant stand most boughten bread. We have one bakery that actually makes good bread here but I know up north in Speyer there is a place called Brot Puristen that make amazing bread and nothing else.
> 
> Problem is now a days most use premix with enzymes and junk in there.



And this is why France still has the best bread anywhere: only supermarket chains and maybe a couple of all-night places catering to wasted clubgoers use premixed anything. At least half of the copious amount of bakeries (there are well over 20 within 500m of my apartment) are excellent. Some are "meh" but it's a strong minority, and you don't have to go far at all to find an "un-meh" one.


----------



## e30Birdy

big_adventure said:


> And this is why France still has the best bread anywhere: only supermarket chains and maybe a couple of all-night places catering to wasted clubgoers use premixed anything. At least half of the copious amount of bakeries (there are well over 20 within 500m of my apartment) are excellent. Some are "meh" but it's a strong minority, and you don't have to go far at all to find an "un-meh" one.



I don't live on that side of Germany anymore. I know my dad can take a detour on his way home of about 8km just to jump into France for fresh bread, croissants and baguette. 

That is why I taught myself and there is no one here that can touch my quality but it's all for my family and I. I don't share lol.


----------



## Jovidah

DitmasPork said:


> I love fine cheeses, but also appreciate and love common supermarket cheese. There're certain dishes that I welcome cheap, pasteurized, American Cheese—grilled cheese 'n tomato sandwiches; Tex-Mex tacos and enchiladas; classic cheeseburger; Southern Mac 'n Cheese. Delicious and nostalgic food for me.
> 
> Moscow style baked fish, another great example where cheap, processed cheese is preferable over a fine aged cheese; as with Korean Budae jjigae; etc.
> 
> A number of hip restaurants are rediscovering the joys of cheap American cheese.
> 
> I've some friends that are quite snobbish, turning their nose up at American Cheese, we often argue the merits of Velveeta, and individually wrapped Kraft cheese. Interestingly, most of my friends in the anti-American cheese contingent don't know how to cook, are into the trendy, hipster, foodie stuff, aren't terribly adventurous with food, and are missing out on some great dishes IMO. I honestly will not say a Colston Basset Stilton is always better than a humble slice of Kraft American Cheese—they're simply different ingredients.
> 
> There are times to savor Jamón ibérico; and other times when only SPAM will do.


I'm sorry, but that processed junk probably wouldn't even be legal to call cheese here. I can totally see an argument for using younger cheeses if you want something more creamy / meltable; it doesn't always have to be 3298329 month old ultradry parmiggiano, but that processed junk came into existance for one reason only: so manufacturers could make more money off junk ingredients. Why poison yourself with that processed crap; at best it's just dilluted cheese.. you can make that yourself by dilluting actual good cheese.
If you want a compromise between texture and flavor there's also the option of fast-fermenting cheeses; those often give you the umami of older cheeses while still having better texture when melting.



Keith Sinclair said:


> Underated Hawaii Avocados & Mangos
> VA., & Georgia peaches tree ripened.
> 
> Awful
> Organ meats. Reason why land & sea critters
> are gutted.
> 
> Save it for the pigs  oops actually DNA wise
> Not that different like pigs humans will eat everything.


I'm torn on the organ stuff; for example I never cared for the flavor of livers on their own but I'm a total sucker for a good paté. I think organ meat probably stands or falls based on the quality of the recipe. Tried heart meat in the past and though it's tough from a flavor perspective I think it actually has potential. Could probably make a really awesome stew out of it, or use it to boost the flavor profile of ground meat when ground fine enough.



Thoz said:


> Most Vegetables
> Wagyu
> Plant based fats (Olive Oil, Coconut Oil)
> 
> While mostly enjoyable i feel they are definitely overrated.


When it comes to plant based oils, like olive oil, quality can make a huge difference IMO. Good quality extra virgin olive oil can be awesome. But when it's the processed chemically filtrated crap it's indistinguishable from any other garbage chemically processed vegetable oil. Actually makes me curious how good some oils like sunflower oil could potentially be if you got them closer to their natural form.



MarcelNL said:


> Has bread made from premixed flour, and prebaked already been mentioned? It seems that out of 100 bakers 99 cannot bake anymore....PAH, mush sold as bread, no taste, no texture.


This is mostly a Dutch thing I think. You don't have to go far across the Dutch border to find much better bread in almost any direction...
You're better off buying frozen bread that you have to bake off yourself from places like Hanos / Sligro than from most bakeries; some of that stuff is acutally quite good.



Michi said:


> Not so sure about that. Bread in Switzerland, Austria, and Germany is up there with the best in the world.


Agreed, within Europe I don't think France has a monopoly on good bread. Then again maybe my standards are just crap because I'm from the Netherlands. But even bread in any random German or Swiss supermarket is better than most Dutch 'bakeries'



parbaked said:


> This is a partial view of my neighborhood bakery, which does also make good baguettes…
> View attachment 147164


Their bread better be good at those prices.  



MarcelNL said:


> in fact most herbs in peoples cupboards are %#$#[email protected]


Not just in people's cupboards; in some stores too, simply because when it doesn't sell regularly enough the stock can be quite old.


----------



## BillHanna

Whipped potatoes are for babies and the elderly. Gimme some lumps. Gimme some thiccness.


----------



## coxhaus

BillHanna said:


> Whipped potatoes are for babies and the elderly. Gimme some lumps. Gimme some thiccness.


I had some at a wine dinner that had so much flavor I could not believe it. They served my plate without potatoes and I said never mind as I won't eat the potatoes as whipped didn't sound good. Everybody at the table corrected me and told me I needed to try the potatoes and sure enough they were great with lots of flavor.


----------



## ian

LostHighway said:


> We shall not speak of "pumpkin" beers or those lost souls who willingly consume them.








Long day at work. Oof.


----------



## WiriWiri

Korean fried chicken. Don’t get me wrong, I still quite like this stuff - frankly I even enjoy courgettes and flowers if deep fried hard enough - but it does seem to match the title of this very thread in my book.

Can be very crisp and tasty, but generally comes in smaller portions, more slowly. The spiciest version is never spicy enough/there’s too much sugar/it’s a bit messy to eat. And generally they’re little different ethically or better healthwise than your local KFC-copycat franchise, despite much warmer press coverage and a tendency to see these as ‘superior’ over the usual cheap fried chicken joints. See also hipster/upmarket fried chicken, albeit higher welfare birds at least tend to feature there.

All things considered, most of the time it’s less hassle and I gain as much enjoyment from a bargain sized bag of hot wings from Morleys, South London‘s superior alternative to KFC.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Like the vinegar chicken wings 5.00 # on Fridays at Safeway. Better than the BBQ they have loaded with sugar. 

Shoyu Chicken is popular here. Some places use way too much sugar not enough fresh ginger & garlic. Easy way out & sugar is like a drug reason why obesity & type 2 diabetes is rampant in the USA. 

Just like cigarettes were 
commonplace when I was a kid. The tobacco industry said nicotine not addictive smoking didn't cause lung cancer. They were lying & didn't care. 

Food industry almost all processed food has sugar, artificial sweeteners, high fructose corn syrup, & all those ingredients with numbers words you don't know. Those drugs go straight to your liver spikes sugar in bloodstream. Refined not digested turns into fat as storage because of overload. Has nothing to do with calories in & out, exercise. As food Giants who have large lobby in Washington DC keep saying. 
It's in the trillions of dollars. They are lying don't care. They don't pay the medical costs.


----------



## 10160

steak. for me nothing is more unappealing than a big hunk of meat.


----------



## MarcelNL

@Keith Sinclair , you are probably right in pointing out some real health issues, yet I somehow disagree in pointing at the manufacturers ...do we not all have responsability over what we put into ourselves?
Nowadays ingredients are listed, if you bring glasses that is ;-), and we can choose....we rarely buy any processed food anymore, now for almost ten years.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Absolutely you have a choice. Used to think was eating healthy, was overweight Belly fat. 

Had to change diet because of health. Read several books on how to lower blood sugar to normal. It was an education almost no processed food make a lot from scratch. 

Really didn't care if little over weight, but got skinny without even trying by eating habits.

TV is bombarded with fast food ads. Celebrities 
drinking Pepsi & Coke. It's not like they aren't pushing their drug foods. I go to Costco town side cuz live Punchbowl area. See folks loading up soda, cases of dry instant noodles, spam. 

It's not like didn't eat plenty plate lunches, spam musubi, love Lau Lau, poki. Still eat sometimes, 
but not regular basis anymore.


----------



## panda

WiriWiri said:


> Korean fried chicken. Don’t get me wrong, I still quite like this stuff - frankly I even enjoy courgettes and flowers if deep fried hard enough - but it does seem to match the title of this very thread in my book.
> 
> Can be very crisp and tasty, but generally comes in smaller portions, more slowly. The spiciest version is never spicy enough/there’s too much sugar/it’s a bit messy to eat. And generally they’re little different ethically or better healthwise than your local KFC-copycat franchise, despite much warmer press coverage and a tendency to see these as ‘superior’ over the usual cheap fried chicken joints. See also hipster/upmarket fried chicken, albeit higher welfare birds at least tend to feature there.
> 
> All things considered, most of the time it’s less hassle and I gain as much enjoyment from a bargain sized bag of hot wings from Morleys, South London‘s superior alternative to KFC.


yall must just not have good korean fried chicken in london..


----------



## panda

10160 said:


> steak. for me nothing is more unappealing than a big hunk of meat.


nothing more unappealing than a hunk of grass


----------



## Jovidah

Green stuff... that's my food's food.


----------



## sansho

i think i like good examples of basically any food. the problem is having access to such examples.

most chocolate is trash. most "normal" (american in my case) candy is trash. the only "good" ones are reeses, peanut MMs, twix, kitkat, crunch. i do genuinely like reeses cups and some of the other reeses products. hersheys bars and plain MMs are a complete joke. don't understand why anyone would buy those.

cupcakes are also a complete joke. as is most "normal" cake. crappy chocolate or vanilla cake with an inch of basic frosting? what is this sһit?






also, f sprinkles and most similar pastry decorations.


----------



## Rangen

If candy is fair game, then I nominate malted milk balls. I don't understand why anyone likes those.

"Chocolate, but weak chocolate, with a hint of vomit."


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

sansho said:


> i think i like good examples of basically any food. the problem is having access to such examples.
> 
> most chocolate is trash. most "normal" (american in my case) candy is trash. the only "good" ones are reeses, peanut MMs, twix, kitkat, crunch. i do genuinely like reeses cups and some of the other reeses products. hersheys bars and plain MMs are a complete joke. don't understand why anyone would buy those.
> 
> cupcakes are also a complete joke. as is most "normal" cake. crappy chocolate or vanilla cake with an inch of basic frosting? what is this sһit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also, f sprinkles and most similar pastry decorations.



Back in my military days my wife would make cupcakes for the single guys. She spent hours hollowing them out by hand and filling them with pudding. Vanilla cupcakes got chocolate pudding filling and frosting and vice versa for the chocolate cupcakes. She'd make a whole day of it and make who knows how many dozens.

The fellas loved 'em.


----------



## tcmx3

MarcelNL said:


> @Keith Sinclair , you are probably right in pointing out some real health issues, yet I somehow disagree in pointing at the manufacturers ...do we not all have responsability over what we put into ourselves?
> Nowadays ingredients are listed, if you bring glasses that is ;-), and we can choose....we rarely buy any processed food anymore, now for almost ten years.



you can take that line if you like, but if you listened to folks who were pushing Oxy just a decade ago saying it was safe, there was tons of evidence it was less addictive, your doctor who you trusted said "yes this is fine", do you still have the responsibility? a lot of that stuff was well hidden. in fact the feds ultimately did decide that the manufacturer had misled the public badly.

it is not a secret that the American sugar industry paid for much of the research that started the whole low fat thing in the 90s, for example.

plus you had an industry marketing heavily and directly at children, who have been known for a long time to not be able to distinguish between programming and advertising.

I would agree with your statement if and only if we lived in a world with genuine information symmetry. but that world is as far away from this as a Marvel movie is.

plus those calorie numbers on the packages? just estimates.


----------



## sansho

HumbleHomeCook said:


> She spent hours hollowing them out by hand and filling them with pudding. Vanilla cupcakes got chocolate pudding filling and frosting and vice versa for the chocolate cupcakes. She'd make a whole day of it and make who knows how many dozens.



this is getting closer to something i'd like. some kind of good filling (i enjoy pudding, custard could be good too) and maybe a lighter application of frosting (better yet crème pâtissière or something).


----------



## Apocalypse

WiriWiri said:


> Korean fried chicken. Don’t get me wrong, I still quite like this stuff - frankly I even enjoy courgettes and flowers if deep fried hard enough - but it does seem to match the title of this very thread in my book.
> 
> Can be very crisp and tasty, but generally comes in smaller portions, more slowly. The spiciest version is never spicy enough/there’s too much sugar/it’s a bit messy to eat. And generally they’re little different ethically or better healthwise than your local KFC-copycat franchise, despite much warmer press coverage and a tendency to see these as ‘superior’ over the usual cheap fried chicken joints. See also hipster/upmarket fried chicken, albeit higher welfare birds at least tend to feature there.
> 
> All things considered, most of the time it’s less hassle and I gain as much enjoyment from a bargain sized bag of hot wings from Morleys, South London‘s superior alternative to KFC.



This sounds to me like nobody has ever done you the favor of giving you real and good Korean chicken. Because this is heresy otherwise.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

When read couple books on how to eat if suffer from high blood sugar & pre diabetics they explained how it happens what it does to your 
body & how to turn it around. When added up 
daily sugar intake was surprised. Love Ginger 
Drank Agave sweetened Strong ginger flavor ginger ale, also lots of orange juice. Loved drinking juices. Some had sugar added. Thought was eating ok found just the opposite. Tomato sauce, ketchup, most processed food in America is loaded with sugar, had to add that too. 

Decided to try going off sugar. So read labels carefully. That eliminated almost everything.
Found how many products have high fructose corn syrup because cheaper than sugar. All the 
artificial sweeteners just as bad or worse than sugar. 

Not trying to be  so keep it short cut out sugar & processed foods. Didn't starve at all. 

Lost 35# in two months. Wasn't going to buy new clothes so bought shorter belts. 

Also for your health research refined sweeteners how play havoc to your system & WHY
It has gotten so much worse in recent decades
Obese children more the norm instead of rare cases. It's an education. It has nothing to do with counting calories. Sugar is as addictive as cocaine.


----------



## WiriWiri

Apocalypse said:


> This sounds to me like nobody has ever done you the favor of giving you real and good Korean chicken. Because this is heresy otherwise.



FFS, London has pretty much the largest expat Korean community per capita anywhere outside of Korea, with suburban Raynes Park/Koreatown home to about 20k alone. Fair to say that we’ve some excellent Korean food and some particularly wonderful BBQ restaurants, acclaimed by Korean expats and visitors alike

London admittedly has a lot of chicken mind - it’s unlikely you’ll ever be more than 100 yards from a fried chicken joint in most of the capital, youttube fulling of penging fried chicken reviews. And whilst I like Korean Fried chicken, I can’t help but feel that it sometimes get too much acclaim and an easy ride from more respectable critics - yes, it’s crunchier. But it’s not some new innovative markedly different product - it’s still tastily, satisfyingly unhealthy FC, only you have to pay at least twice as much and wait longer. And yep, sometimes I‘d prefer a quick bag of Morley’s finest without the hassle.

Better value and more remarkable chicken experiences lie elsewhere imo. Mama Lan‘s satisfying chilli oil wings, the Gallery‘s proper piri pirii in the day, Braii wings from ML and many, many more,. I’ll still eat (and enjoy) Korean Fried chicken without hesitation, but it’s an outgunned contender rather than a new chicken paradigm over here.


----------



## Jovidah

tcmx3 said:


> you can take that line if you like, but if you listened to folks who were pushing Oxy just a decade ago saying it was safe, there was tons of evidence it was less addictive, your doctor who you trusted said "yes this is fine", do you still have the responsibility? a lot of that stuff was well hidden. in fact the feds ultimately did decide that the manufacturer had misled the public badly.
> 
> it is not a secret that the American sugar industry paid for much of the research that started the whole low fat thing in the 90s, for example.
> 
> plus you had an industry marketing heavily and directly at children, who have been known for a long time to not be able to distinguish between programming and advertising.
> 
> I would agree with your statement if and only if we lived in a world with genuine information symmetry. but that world is as far away from this as a Marvel movie is.
> 
> plus those calorie numbers on the packages? just estimates.


The main problem IMO was that for a _long _time all the advice from health board, government institutions, and even the 'medical world' was bascially 'fat = bad, carbs = good'. While some of the research and advice might have been skewed by certain interest groups I think the biggest problem was that most of it was based on crap science. If you look up the research it's all based on it's surprising it was preached as gospel for so long. I don't think you can explain it away as 'bad intentions' from all involved, as a lot of those people meant well; they just had the science wrong. 

What's worrying though is that..well... things didn't improve all THAT much on a lot of fronts. We still see far reaching statements and advice being given on dubious nutrition research; virtually none of it is experimental research and it's not that hard to come up with a list of problems that essentially renders the presented conclusions as meaningless. You see a lot of this nowadays with 'red meat bad' or 'meat is bad' kind of research, where I feel like a lot of people are interpreting research through 'ideological goggles'.




Keith Sinclair said:


> When read couple books on how to eat if suffer from high blood sugar & pre diabetics they explained how it happens what it does to your
> body & how to turn it around. When added up
> daily sugar intake was surprised. Love Ginger
> Drank Agave sweetened Strong ginger flavor ginger ale, also lots of orange juice. Loved drinking juices. Some had sugar added. Thought was eating ok found just the opposite. Tomato sauce, ketchup, most processed food in America is loaded with sugar, had to add that too.
> 
> Decided to try going off sugar. So read labels carefully. That eliminated almost everything.
> Found how many products have high fructose corn syrup because cheaper than sugar. All the
> artificial sweeteners just as bad or worse than sugar.
> 
> Not trying to be  so keep it short cut out sugar & processed foods. Didn't starve at all.
> 
> Lost 35# in two months. Wasn't going to buy new clothes so bought shorter belts.
> 
> Also for your health research refined sweeteners how play havoc to your system & WHY
> It has gotten so much worse in recent decades
> Obese children more the norm instead of rare cases. It's an education. It has nothing to do with counting calories. Sugar is as addictive as cocaine.


I think fruit juices were the most surprising to me as being potentially problematic. Like many I grew up with the idea that stuff like orange juice is really healthy and good for you. It's loaded with vitamin C and even grandma is saying it so it must be true right? 
Even in the government guidelines nowadays fruit juice gets the cold shoulder.

In general I think that 'avoid processed stuff' is both the most easy and most effective nutrition advice one can give. Start making your own food from scratch with recognizable ingredients and it's almost impossible to eat unhealthy. There's just so much junk in most of the premade and processed crap (not just in America). The problem is that a lot of people don't necessarily have the time for that, and in a lot of places getting access to quality ingredients isn't necessarily a given either.

The second 'easy win' is to just give up juice and soda and simply drink water. Those play a huge role in making kids fat since it's incredibly easy to overconsume calories with sugary drinks. Saves money too!


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yes water. Make green tea by the gallon drink it cold actually prefer it now with no sugar. 

Whole fruits for the fiber. Had to give up dried fruits. Lots of nuts for snacks high in natural fats, still can't gain any weight. 

Lots of fresh vegetables & seafood not the battered stuff. Steamed or fried in the skillet. 

Only complex carbs in smaller portions.


----------



## Apocalypse

WiriWiri said:


> FFS, London has pretty much the largest expat Korean community per capita anywhere outside of Korea, with suburban Raynes Park/Koreatown home to about 20k alone. Fair to say that we’ve some excellent Korean food and some particularly wonderful BBQ restaurants, acclaimed by Korean expats and visitors alike
> 
> London admittedly has a lot of chicken mind - it’s unlikely you’ll ever be more than 100 yards from a fried chicken joint in most of the capital, youttube fulling of penging fried chicken reviews. And whilst I like Korean Fried chicken, I can’t help but feel that it sometimes get too much acclaim and an easy ride from more respectable critics - yes, it’s crunchier. But it’s not some new innovative markedly different product - it’s still tastily, satisfyingly unhealthy FC, only you have to pay at least twice as much and wait longer. And yep, sometimes I‘d prefer a quick bag of Morley’s finest without the hassle.
> 
> Better value and more remarkable chicken experiences lie elsewhere imo. Mama Lan‘s satisfying chilli oil wings, the Gallery‘s proper piri pirii in the day, Braii wings from ML and many, many more,. I’ll still eat (and enjoy) Korean Fried chicken without hesitation, but it’s an outgunned contender rather than a new chicken paradigm over here.



Well I'm in southern California so I doubt you have more Koreans than we have here. Not that I say that for competition at all, bit if you're ever in the area I'd love to treat you. Because it's not just crunchier, but juicier and packing much more flavor. If you still felt that way after wards I'd be surprised.


----------



## MarcelNL

Underrated foods also warrant their own thread IMO...

After a holiday from proper bread we just got some good bread (Rober for the Dutch) ,


----------



## Michi

MarcelNL said:


> Underrated foods also warrant their own thread IMO...


Yes please!

That bread looks great. A slice of fresh bread with nothing but butter and a few flakes of salt is one of the most satisfying gourmet foods in the world.


----------



## MarcelNL

I started a thread for underrated foods ;-)


----------



## Dhoff

MarcelNL said:


> I started a thread for underrated foods ;-)



and it has not yet derailed into a TF argument, congratz


----------



## MarcelNL

Is it a saying in english too; don't praise the day before sunset?


----------



## Dhoff

MarcelNL said:


> Is it a saying in english too; don't praise the day before sunset?



dont rightly know, but the meaning translates well.


----------



## Jovidah

Another thing that just came to mind... really dark chocolate. While I can enjoy chocolate in a lot of different forms or 'strengths', whether it's milk chocolate, the midrange or anything up to 70%... once it goes beyond 70% it just becomes too bitter for my taste, even if it's good chocolate. Maybe people with different palates than mine perceive this different to me but no mater how much I tried if I was being honest the really high % stuff just wasn't as enjoyable as the <70% stuff.


----------



## MarcelNL

O yes, dark chocolate! My observation is similar, around 70=80% is optimal for my taste but anything over that seems to lose flavor and complexity.


----------



## cotedupy

WiriWiri said:


> Korean fried chicken. Don’t get me wrong, I still quite like this stuff - frankly I even enjoy courgettes and flowers if deep fried hard enough - but it does seem to match the title of this very thread in my book.
> 
> Can be very crisp and tasty, but generally comes in smaller portions, more slowly. The spiciest version is never spicy enough/there’s too much sugar/it’s a bit messy to eat. And generally they’re little different ethically or better healthwise than your local KFC-copycat franchise, despite much warmer press coverage and a tendency to see these as ‘superior’ over the usual cheap fried chicken joints. See also hipster/upmarket fried chicken, albeit higher welfare birds at least tend to feature there.
> 
> All things considered, most of the time it’s less hassle and I gain as much enjoyment from a bargain sized bag of hot wings from Morleys, South London‘s superior alternative to KFC.



Ever go to CheeMc on the Walworth Road? Cracker of a place! Closed for a while after the busybody hygiene inspectors decided it was obeying neither the letter nor the spirit of the law. But back open I believe now, and with fewer rat droppings in the batter.

And yes, also - Morleys


----------



## Apocalypse

Potato salad. Sure I've had one or two that were decent. But 99% of the time it's terrible and made by people that have no idea what good flavor or balance is.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Ditto on dark chocolate like just a little bitter. 

Ever had German potato salad served warm? 
Pretty good. Worked with German chef doing banquets. Was popular item on hot line chafing 
pans.


----------



## Jim Beam

DitmasPork said:


> Paris is an overrated food city.



I'll go one further and say France is an overrated food country. People rave about how "sophisticated" the food is here. The reality is that it is bland and overcooked. The French themselves will admit that they are terrified of spices. And the beef is tougher than I am.

OK, the bread is amazing, and so is the cheese. But I never eat out in France anymore because it always disappoints.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Fake meat often has not so healthy ingredients. 

Often packaging covered with no GMO, low fat, etc. Is not healthy at all.


----------



## Rangen

Jim Beam said:


> I'll go one further and say France is an overrated food country. People rave about how "sophisticated" the food is here. The reality is that it is bland and overcooked. The French themselves will admit that they are terrified of spices. And the beef is tougher than I am.
> 
> OK, the bread is amazing, and so is the cheese. But I never eat out in France anymore because it always disappoints.



Do you include Alsace in that? I spent some time there, some years ago, and was stunned by how good the food was.


----------



## rmrf

Denver and flat iron steaks. If you are a steak and cost more than a ribeye, go ahead and f*** off.


----------



## Jovidah

rmrf said:


> Denver and flat iron steaks. If you are a steak and cost more than a ribeye, go ahead and f*** off.


Honestly it's ribeye I find highly overrated.


----------



## DitmasPork

rmrf said:


> Denver and flat iron steaks. If you are a steak and cost more than a ribeye, go ahead and f*** off.





Jovidah said:


> Honestly it's ribeye I find highly overrated.


Ribeye are wonderful steaks, albeit terribly overrated. TBH I’d get bored cooking and eating just ribeye steak.
Love the character, beefiness of a paleron (flat iron), reasonably priced—big fan of the chewy gristle bit that runs through it.
Last weeks grilled paleron:


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Instation crab - just molded highly processed 
fish cake with soy, sugar, & MSG to make it taste good.


----------



## zizirex

sansho said:


> also, f sprinkles and most similar pastry decorations.



This is the problem with sprinkles in North America. I only trust the Dutch stuff, the Hagelslag and the Muisjes.
That's a real deal.


----------



## sansho

zizirex said:


> This is the problem with sprinkles in North America. I only trust the Dutch stuff, the Hagelslag and the Muisjes.
> That's a real deal.



wow. popular and eaten on buttered toast? never heard of those. sounds like something worth trying.


----------



## MarcelNL

sansho said:


> wow. popular and eaten on buttered toast? never heard of those. sounds like something worth trying.


we (well our kids mostly) eat that stuff on a slice of bread, toast, 'beschuit'(zwieback), or anything...beware, there is a load of brands that sell sugar with a chocolat content that is quite low, aim for the better brands and 'puur' (higher chocolate content >54%)


----------



## Jovidah

DitmasPork said:


> Ribeye are wonderful steaks, albeit terribly overrated. TBH I’d get bored cooking and eating just ribeye steak.
> Love the character, beefiness of a paleron (flat iron), reasonably priced—big fan of the chewy gristle bit that runs through it.
> Last weeks grilled paleron:
> View attachment 150026
> 
> View attachment 150027
> 
> View attachment 150028


I think technically you can't call it a flat iron if it isn't split lengthwise so you don't have the gristle? But yeah, very underrated cut. Over here it's generally only used for simmering and stewing. Cheap as dirt. It's one of the cheap cuts that I used to teach myself how to prep steaks; all the principles are the same, you just have a little piece in the center that you have to eat around... But the meat part itself is really good. Thanks for the reminder... this is going on the shopping list again.


----------



## DitmasPork

Jovidah said:


> Honestly it's ribeye I find highly overrated.





Jovidah said:


> I think technically you can't call it a flat iron if it isn't split lengthwise so you don't have the gristle? But yeah, very underrated cut. Over here it's generally only used for simmering and stewing. Cheap as dirt. It's one of the cheap cuts that I used to teach myself how to prep steaks; all the principles are the same, you just have a little piece in the center that you have to eat around... But the meat part itself is really good. Thanks for the reminder... this is going on the shopping list again.



Yeah, you’re right, Flat Iron typically cut lengthwise, omitting the connective tissue, but I’ve seen it cut both ways with and without the gristle—depending on the butcher. Top blade (flat iron) really packs a lotta flavor!


----------



## zizirex

sansho said:


> wow. popular and eaten on buttered toast? never heard of those. sounds like something worth trying.


Yeah, I found one in World Market in the states, It was called De Ruijter brand, and they have the dark chocolate version. it's my go-to breakfast topping. I like to eat it with peanut butter if I want something heavier. Also, you could grill it to make the sprinkle melt have a nice sweet dark chocolate that is not too heavy.


----------



## panda

Keith Sinclair said:


> Instation crab - just molded highly processed
> fish cake with soy, sugar, & MSG to make it taste good.


u cray. I LOVE this one


----------



## Dhoff

peanutbutter is overrated.


----------



## McMan

DitmasPork said:


> Yeah, you’re right, Flat Iron typically cut lengthwise, omitting the connective tissue, but I’ve seen it cut both ways with and without the gristle—depending on the butcher. Top blade (flat iron) really packs a lotta flavor!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 150099


Those are just chuck steaks. Like neighborhood labels in real estate, the label "flat iron" has expanded in use lately


----------



## Keith Sinclair

You like it here, fake fish cake crab is a big seller. Japanese love it put in all kinds of stuff.


----------



## riba

zizirex said:


> Yeah, I found one in World Market in the states, It was called De Ruijter brand, and they have the dark chocolate version. it's my go-to breakfast topping. I like to eat it with peanut butter if I want something heavier. Also, you could grill it to make the sprinkle melt have a nice sweet dark chocolate that is not too heavy.


My kid's breakfast today 
She also likes it with jam, or with .... chocolate paste


----------



## DitmasPork

McMan said:


> Those are just chuck steaks. Like neighborhood labels in real estate, the label "flat iron" has expanded in use lately


Semantics. Chuck is a rather large section of the steer, which includes the blade area—depending on butcher, I’ve seen it cut with and against the grain, labeled chicken steak, paleron, flat iron, top blade steak, feather steak, etc. TBH, I don’t get hung up on what foods are called in different regions. Point being, the steaks from the blade of the chuck are darn tasty, with or without the gristle.


----------



## DitmasPork

Dhoff said:


> peanutbutter is overrated.


Except for Jif brand peanut butter—which is the go-to for Filipino kare-kare.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Dhoff said:


> peanutbutter is overrated.



Blasphemer!

Peanut butter is the only reason we have thumbs. Once we achieved that pinnacle of creation, our purpose was fulfilled. It's all just passing time now.


----------



## McMan

DitmasPork said:


> Semantics. Chuck is a rather large section of the steer, which includes the blade area—depending on butcher, I’ve seen it cut with and against the grain, labeled chicken steak, paleron, flat iron, top blade steak, feather steak, etc. TBH, I don’t get hung up on what foods are called in different regions. Point being, the steaks from the blade of the chuck are darn tasty, with or without the gristle.


It's not semantics when it refers to a specific cut. And the cuts shown in the photo aren't that cut.
Then, it's just an example of "stretching" a label. "Flat iron" might well sell better (and for more $)--regardless of whether the butcher actually cut a flat iron or not...


----------



## DitmasPork

McMan said:


> It's not semantics when it refers to a specific cut. And the cuts shown in the photo aren't that cut.
> Then, it's just an example of "stretching" a label. "Flat iron" might well sell better (and for more $)--regardless of whether the butcher actually cut a flat iron or not...


I get what you’re saying. I’m just pointing out that some butchers cut a flat iron with the grain, and some against it—can’t say they’re wrong if the gristle runs through it, just a different opinion of the butcher. It’s just a steak, doesn’t matter really.


----------



## Jovidah

To be honest it kinda does make a significant difference. Just slicing vertically takes almost no time and has almost no loss to trim. Splitting it horizontally is actually quite a bit of work and leads to a significant loss in trimmings. This should also be reflected in the price difference.
I get your point; the flavor is the same, but calling a normal chuck steak a flat iron is a bit of a sneaky way to oversell / rip people off.


----------



## DitmasPork

I know the difference, and the craft of cutting to omit the gristle. However, it hasn’t stopped butchers from expanding the definition of the cut—my comments are simply offering an observation from shopping; have had it both ways in restaurants. Personally, I prefer the little gristle treat; also allows for a thicker cut.

From here on in (on this thread), I’ll refer to the steak in question as ‘paleron.’ Yum!


----------



## Jovidah

I'm not losing sleep over how an individual or consumer calls it (I agree that it's rather nitpicky semantics territory), but when a butcher plays so loose with the names and definitions that's bad form IMO. Then it's deliberately misusing the name of a more expensive cut... wouldn't exactly encourage me to become a repeat customer at a place that does that.


----------



## DitmasPork

Jovidah said:


> I'm not losing sleep over how an individual or consumer calls it (I agree that it's rather nitpicky semantics territory), but when a butcher plays so loose with the names and definitions that's bad form IMO. Then it's deliberately misusing the name of a more expensive cut... wouldn't exactly encourage me to become a repeat customer at a place that does that.


I’m accustomed to seeing all manner of foods mislabeled. Doesn’t matter to me, I don’t hold it against the seller (most are small mom & pop markets), it’s just food and I know what the ingredients are. If quality is good, I don’t care what it’s called—some markets I go to label meat cuts in Cyrillic, Spanish, Chinese.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Worked little while as butcher helper. That's how got into carbon knives. We used to get large Mahi Mahi whole fish from fish market. 

We even had a band saw at Kahala Hilton

Now butchers are rare in Hotels everything is precut & packaged. 

Do stand alone butcher shops still exist in big cities. I would imagine they are in decline too.


----------



## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> Worked little while as butcher helper. That's how got into carbon knives. We used to get large Mahi Mahi whole fish from fish market.
> 
> We even had a band saw at Kahala Hilton
> 
> Now butchers are rare in Hotels everything is precut & packaged.
> 
> Do stand alone butcher shops still exist in big cities. I would imagine they are in decline too.


Got a good amount of butcher shops in NYC—old school Italian; Chinatown meat markets; lots of meat counters in ethnic markets with butchers at work. 
Didn’t see dedicated butcher shops in Hawaii. Although, the markets typically have meat vendors with butchers—came across a vendor selling local pork raised in Wainea. 
Loved the Kahala Hilton, now the Mandarin right? Great buffet at Hoku’s.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

It's had couple owners since Mandarin. They closed the Hotel for a year to renovate that's when Hoku's was created. 

I was hired by Chef Martin Weiss in 1981 because they needed a Ice Carver. Had worked Sheraton Waikiki before that. When he retired from Kahala he owned the Swiss Inn. I'm sure you remember that in your neck of the woods. 
I retired from Kahala really liked working there.
By far the longest job in one place in my life.

Now it is owned by a large Japanese Hotel chain.


----------



## Dhoff

caviar is also overrated, hate that popping feeling


----------



## Jovidah

Keith Sinclair said:


> Worked little while as butcher helper. That's how got into carbon knives. We used to get large Mahi Mahi whole fish from fish market.
> 
> We even had a band saw at Kahala Hilton
> 
> Now butchers are rare in Hotels everything is precut & packaged.
> 
> Do stand alone butcher shops still exist in big cities. I would imagine they are in decline too.


You still see them here but they're definitly on the decline; most people just buy the supermarket garbage. What doesn't really help is that of the remaining butcher shops there's essentially 2 types left: those that sell similar quality to supermarkets and just re-sell stuff that's already pre-butchered and everything (essentially just a meat-retail point), and proper ones that are almost invariably very expensive. I guess part of the problem is that even if you want to do things 'proper' you don't really see the volume so that drives up prices.


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## DitmasPork

Keith Sinclair said:


> It's had couple owners since Mandarin. They closed the Hotel for a year to renovate that's when Hoku's was created.
> 
> I was hired by Chef Martin Weiss in 1981 because they needed a Ice Carver. Had worked Sheraton Waikiki before that. When he retired from Kahala he owned the Swiss Inn. I'm sure you remember that in your neck of the woods.
> I retired from Kahala really liked working there.
> By far the longest job in one place in my life.
> 
> Now it is owned by a large Japanese Hotel chain.


Honestly can't keep track of who owns it! Been there more times than I can count, I've probably seen your ice sculptures! One of the biggest draws was seeing the dolphins after stuffing myself with food.


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## KingShapton

MarcelNL said:


> Has bread made from premixed flour, and prebaked already been mentioned? It seems that out of 100 bakers 99 cannot bake anymore....PAH, mush sold as bread, no taste, no texture


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## Michi

Back in the mid-seventies, I was in Italy and ended up eating songbirds. (That was the only time I ever ate that.) I remember being distinctly unimpressed. Songbirds are eaten complete with bones because they are so tiny. The overall sensation is not that great. Very little meat, plus the crunch of the bones. Didn't do it for me.


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## Michi

And, another one: duck tongues. It's a Chinese dish. The duck tongue itself tastes nice, very lean tasty meat. The problem is that duck's tongue has a spine. There is this tiny row of bones running down the center of the muscle. Those bones are maybe 1–2 mm in size, but they have very sharp corners. You have to eat carefully in order to avoid cutting your tongue or gums.

It's another food that I've tried and decided to not go for a repeat experience.


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## Rangen

Michi said:


> And, another one: duck tongues. It's a Chinese dish. The duck tongue itself tastes nice, very lean tasty meat. The problem is that duck's tongue has a spine. There is this tiny row of bones running down the center of the muscle. Those bones are maybe 1–2 mm in size, but they have very sharp corners. You have to eat carefully in order to avoid cutting your tongue or gums.
> 
> It's another food that I've tried and decided to not go for a repeat experience.



I love those things. I once had a whole dish of them for lunch. I did not find the corners sharp; I think they were long-braised, and had softened.


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## Michi

Rangen said:


> I love those things. I once had a whole dish of them for lunch. I did not find the corners sharp; I think they were long-braised, and had softened.


Maybe I was just one-time unlucky. If I see them again, I'll give them another go.


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## Orange Yolks

Uni


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## MarcelNL

I had duck tongue at a traditional Chinese place too, uninteresting IMO. Meat is indeed nice enough but not worth the hassle for me.


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## Jovidah

That's what sums up a lot of the small stuff for me, be it quails or frog legs; it's 'just like chicken' in a more awkward format to me.


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## DitmasPork

Crab cakes


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## DitmasPork

MarcelNL said:


> I had duck tongue at a traditional Chinese place too, uninteresting IMO. Meat is indeed nice enough but not worth the hassle for me.



It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea—more of a textural thing. Yes, they do take a lot of work to eat—much like small bony fish, or little sea snails—you'd probably not like chicken's feet, a dim sum house classic. I grew up eating a lot of chickens feet; duck tongue and web; beef tendons; goose intestines; beef tripe and spleen; etc. And also other ingredients valued for textures—and cost/rarity—like bird's nest and shark's fin, which offer little flavor of their own, but require elaborate processes to cook.

With my family, tripe, tendons, chicken's feet, and pig's trotters usually generate more excitement than ribeye steaks. The former ingredients, although less expensive, can take considerably more time and kitchen craft to cook than a ribeye—so is often appreciated on the table. It's also very nostalgic food, grandmother's cooking, etc.


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## Michi

Escargot. Slightly woody taste, not very strong, and rubbery texture. Only reason to eat them is the herb butter that goes along with them because, without that, it would be just a slightly woody taste and rubbery texture…


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## JoBone

Plain unsalted tofu served slightly chilled


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## Michi

JoBone said:


> Plain unsalted tofu served slightly chilled


Tastes like salted nothing.


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## Rangen

Eating unseasoned tofu makes about as much sense as eating flour with a spoon.

Slice it thin, some sweet Shanghai sauce and some pork floss on top, and some century eggs, and you've got a great cold dish.


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## coxhaus

DitmasPork said:


> Semantics. Chuck is a rather large section of the steer, which includes the blade area—depending on butcher, I’ve seen it cut with and against the grain, labeled chicken steak, paleron, flat iron, top blade steak, feather steak, etc. TBH, I don’t get hung up on what foods are called in different regions. Point being, the steaks from the blade of the chuck are darn tasty, with or without the gristle.



I smoked my first chuck steak and it was tasty. I found a couple without gristle. They were low on briskets; they had been picked over and what was left did not look good. I used a salt and black pepper rub and smoked it for just a few hours. It was nice.


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## BillHanna

Who the fxck puts coconut in oatmeal raisin cookies? Downvote.


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## scrappy

Dhoff said:


> caviar is also overrated, hate that popping feeling


I don’t notice too much popping with caviar. Not that I can remember the last time I ate it. Lumpfish roe does pop, though. I must admit, I like caviar, but it’s just too expensive for what it is.


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