# Lapping fluids other than water on diamond plates?



## Bert2368 (Mar 11, 2019)

Ran across references to (a new to me) substance, "Trend DWS Lapping Fluid". 

Claimed to be developed for industrial diamond lapping processes.

According to the manufacturer, you must use this stuff while sharpening on diamond plates, or their "Trend" brand of diamond plates will rust, your warranty is void and you will become a social pariah with dull tools.

https://www.amazon.com/Trend-DWS-LF...ocphy=9019492&hvtargid=pla-568756959980&psc=1

It's only $12.69 for 100ml, which makes it about as expensive as some reasonably top shelf booze... But will I enjoy it as much?

Anyhow. Further kicking the Googles around led to claims that you can use AUTO glass cleaner on diamond plates with good effect (the alcohol based stuff one puts into the vehicles window washing reservoir, not home WINDOW glass cleaner, the kind with ammonia added).

The brand name specifically mentioned by a woodworker is "Astound", sold in UK. I looked up the Safety Data Sheets for that cleaner, SDS says it's mostly isopropyl alcohol/deionized water and less than 5% anionic surfactants.

In USA varieties of windshield washer fluid, methyl alcohol/water + a bit of surfactant mixtures serve the same pupose. 

I had a hand plane iron in need of sharpening, so what the heck. I got the spare bottle out of the truck and had at it with "guaranteed not to freeze down to -25 F." windshield washer fluid and my oldest diamond plate.

It worked. Somewhat faster than my usual 1 cup of water + 1 drop of Dawn dish soap. A good ammount of various crap which had accumulated on the plate over 25 years or so and NOT come off when washed with warm water/stiff brush also came off. The diamonds don't seem to have.

A quick look at patents for industrial lapping fluids showed a good number of water soluble/miscible fluids can be used. Everything from glycols to "modified parafinic hydrocarbons" (cigarette lighter fluid, mineral spirits and lots of others) plus all kinds of additives depending on which material is being lapped, corrosion control, bacteriostats, anti foaming agents, splatter control, emulsifiers and such. I'm not going to try compounding these.

Now for my ultimate heresy-

I used the windshield washer fluid on a couple of Shapton water stones next. (2,000 and 5,000 grit).

It worked. The 2,000 grit cut faster. The 5,000 grit stone I have begun to hate behaved much better than it has with water, not just sitting there and acting like a useless slick piece of glass but actually removing some metal. These Shaptons didn't crumble or anything (yet!) and were easy to clean with water afterwards.

Tried it on a hard translucent Arkansas I had used with water only next. Same result, I believe it cut faster than it has done with water.

I don't seem to be going blind from methanol fumes/skin absorption but I think for any extended sharpening session I might prefer to switch to isopropyl or denatured ethanol. In any case, good ventilation is indicated and be warned, the stuff will chap your hands.


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## TurboScooter (Mar 11, 2019)

I don't know about antifreeze type washer fluid, which it sounds like you are using, but the stuff I put in my windshield washer reservoir is different (mine has way more stuff in it per the SDS) than the stuff generally used for auto glass cleaning (deionized water, isopropyl alcohol, 2-butoxyethanol).

Depending on how much you use you may be interested to know that some auto detailing companies make concentrates of the stuff for pro detailers. Meguiar's D120 is 10:1 and 3D/HD makes a 50:1 concentrate. Possible downside is the Meguiar's D120 dye seems fairly strong (people have complained about the dye leaving stains on the interior panels of cars when they spray on the glass directly) and may stain the stone, not sure about the 3D/HD stuff but it also has a color to it.

Side note: 2-butoxyethanol used to be the active ingredient in the old plain version of Simple Green, whose recommended glass cleaning dilution ratio is 150:1. It has a kind of crappy reputation, but it's used in quite a bunch of APCs for auto detailing. No idea if this would be a concern on the backing plate, but 2-butoxyethanol can cause aluminum embrittlement with repeated/prolonged contact.


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## Knife2meatu (Mar 12, 2019)

Bert2368 said:


> [...]
> The 5,000 grit stone I have begun to hate behaved much better than it has with water, not just sitting there and acting like a useless slick piece of glass but actually removing some metal.
> [...]



Ha! I have one of these coming in the mail; I was way more eager to try it out before reading this. Have you ever considered writing ad-print?

Although... Maybe this is actually making me want to try it out more. Ha!


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## Bert2368 (Mar 12, 2019)

From what others have said about the various Shapton varieties and grits, they are not all universaly good for carbon and stainless. 

The 5,000 had been working poorly and was quite frustrating on some 440 and 420 steel blades I have sharpened recently. But it worked reasonably well on my old Henckels 4 star chef knife and quite well on several carbon steel knives and wood working tool blades.

Going to try one of the Chinese 440C blades again, with the cleaning fluid instead of plain water this time.


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## Knife2meatu (Mar 12, 2019)

Yes, I posted about this recently https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/sp320-question.40545/#post-598988.

It definitely has something to do with why I also have a 320 and 1500 coming in the mail; I'm going to decide from first hand experience if I want to go on arguing that it is a myth about those two stones being noticeably worse grinding stainless than carbon steel. Though I don't think I've ever seen this said about the 5k before -- never mind that this purported difference between the properties of different stones within the Pro/Kuromaku line-up doesn't fit with Shapton's own guidance.

Have you tried using the Shaptons with a slurry? 330mate includes one of two types of natural nagura with the Ha No Kuromakus he sells, I assume he considers it important enough to go to the trouble.


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## parbaked (Mar 12, 2019)

Knife2meatu said:


> Have you tried using the Shaptons with a slurry? 330mate includes one of two types of natural nagura with the Ha No Kuromakus he sells, I assume he considers it important enough to go to the trouble.



Interesting...In their FAQ, Shapton advise against lapping with a nagura stone because it will leave a rough surface.
http://www.shapton.co.jp/en/faq/


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## Knife2meatu (Mar 12, 2019)

@parbaked I've recently stopped honing my razors on fine stones after they've been lapped with my Atoma 400; precisely because the surface finished with 400 grit diamonds is _noticeably _rougher than one finished with a fine nagura rubbing. And this difference is apparent in the resulting shave.

In fact, I now wonder why Suehiro chose to stop including a dual-sided 1000/3000 rubbing stone with their 20k Gokumyo; opting instead to include their 400 grit cleaning stone, which leaves a finish on the stone surface only slightly finer than the equivalent grit Atoma. I expect the 1k/3k dressing stone yielded better results.

All that to say, it's been my experience that to avoid leaving a rough surface on a Shapton, using a finer nagura works well; even if it is after using a coarser lapping stone to true/refresh the surface.

edit: Thanks so much for the link to the Shapton FAQ. Very interesting. Cheers!


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## Bert2368 (Mar 12, 2019)

Reading the FAQ, detergents are not supposed to be used. However, plenty of others have used the very dilute dish detergent/water combination I have used.

They don't mention using liquids other than water and oil, oil is OK, but you can't revert to using water if you ever use oil, of course.

Alcohol? I guess I will find out if I keep trying this.


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## never mind (Mar 12, 2019)

Dedication


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## PalmRoyale (Mar 12, 2019)

I use water with a few drops of detergent with my Atomas. Works perfect and keeps it from looking like an old rusted plate


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## Bert2368 (Mar 14, 2019)

I tried a couple of 420 and 440C blades with Shapton 500 glass and the cheap Walmart windshield washing solution, finishing with a couple of edge trailing strokes. Apexing went very quickly.

After apexing on the 500 I did a few passes stropping on denim with Turtle Wax brand "scratch and swirl remover" ($3.00 US/375ml!) applied to the cloth. Left the blades quite suitably sharp for cutting tomaoes, meat, etc.

The whole procedure went FAST. A variation on what I did with the globals.

Asside from woodworking tools, I'm not using the 2,000, 5,000 and various natural finishing stones much. Would still like to add an approximately 1,000 grit stone for blades that need more than a steel but fairly minimal work, the 500 is a bit aggressive for use on blades that are somewhat dull but not actually chipped or dammaged.

I performed the same routine on a carbon (white steel) 150mm nakiri. It worked well, took about 2 minutes start to finish. Then I made salsa... Got to justify all this knife sharpening by actually using knives for cooking ocasionaly, don't you know!


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