# Tiramisu Fujiwara Denka vs Maboroshi



## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

Hi,

I have a teruyasu fujiwara denka gyuto that I purchased used. It's okay I guess, but I am thinking of selling it and purchasing a new maboroshi instead.

I am thinking with the maboroshi, I can get a thicker knife with more height, along with the red handle and tou cou and makers kanji chisteled like in the picture. But the denka hype has me hesitating...

What would I be giving up with the denka?


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 5, 2020)

Is that a Denka? What happened to the Ku finish.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Is that a Denka? What happened to the Ku finish.



No it's the full kanji that has been chiseled instead of stamped, which is what I would prefer. The knife is a mab (not mine)



sliceanddicebaby said:


> ...makers kanji chisteled like in the picture...


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## McMan (Oct 5, 2020)




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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

rip autocorrect

TF gang


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 5, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> View attachment 97489
> 
> rip autocorrect
> 
> TF gang


RIP Teru


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## Matus (Oct 5, 2020)

Shall I correct it for you? It is so funny, that I think it would be a pity to do that


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## luuogle (Oct 5, 2020)

This is hilarious. I thought this was a recipe for tiramisu.


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## Jville (Oct 5, 2020)

I love me Tiramisu. Whats better TF Denka or the best Tiramisu you ever had?


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## DitmasPork (Oct 5, 2020)

Jville said:


> I love me Tiramisu. Whats better TF Denka or the best Tiramisu you ever had?



Tiramisu only offers momentary pleasure, Denka is for life.


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## BillHanna (Oct 5, 2020)

A moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips


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## Twigg (Oct 5, 2020)

I wonder if he has any clue that he and his dog's pictures float around so much.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

Twigg said:


> I wonder if he has any clue that he and his dog's pictures float around so much.



He posted this on his twitter account along with his red lexus sedan, but it doesn't seem to be active: https://twitter.com/teruyasu1228

@Matus whatever you think is best hehe 



also could someone please kindly answer my question thank you


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## BillHanna (Oct 5, 2020)

Sweet summer child....


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## McMan (Oct 5, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> ALSO COULD SOMEONE KINDLY ANSWER MY QUESTION PLEASE AND THANK YOU


If you already have a Denka, just buy the Maboroshi and keep whichever one you prefer. 
Problem solved. 
Won't be hard to sell either on BST. 
I've never tried a Denka. I like the Maboroshi fine. Not my favorite knife but good. But others burn incense at shrines to TF they've built in their own homes, so it's a "different strokes for different folks" type thing...


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## DitmasPork (Oct 5, 2020)

I'm soooo hungry right now thinking of tiramisu.


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## Twigg (Oct 5, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> He posted this on his twitter account along with his red lexus sedan, but it doesn't seem to be active: https://twitter.com/teruyasu1228
> 
> @Matus whatever you think is best hehe
> 
> ...


I was just curious and wasn't making a complaint.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

McMan said:


> If you already have a Denka, just buy the Maboroshi and keep whichever one you prefer.
> Problem solved.
> Won't be hard to sell either on BST.
> I've never tried a Denka. I like the Maboroshi fine. Not my favorite knife but good. But other's burn incense at shrines to TF they've built in their own homes, so it's a "different strokes for different folks" type thing...



Would be nice in theory, but I'd need to sell one to afford the other. I'd be losing money if I bought a new mab and sold it used, too, which I'd like to avoid.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

Twigg said:


> I was just curious and wasn't making a complaint.



No worries @Twigg , I didn't take it as such. just sharing where I found the photo.


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## McMan (Oct 5, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> Would be nice in theory, but I'd need to sell one to afford the other. I'd be losing money if I bought a new mab and sold it used, too, which I'd like to avoid.


If you're worried about losing money... Nevermind.


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## Jville (Oct 5, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> I'm soooo hungry right now thinking of tiramisu.
> 
> View attachment 97498


Ahh, I see where your heart really lies. That is a good looking one there!


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## lemeneid (Oct 5, 2020)

Keep the Denka. It’s a world of difference compared to the Maboroshi. I’ve owned both in 240 lengths and by far the Denka is the one that sets your pulse racing.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

it must be my lucky day, my thread has been graced by one of the shrine builders. @lemeneid could you elaborate please? What besides the edge retention makes the denka a world apart from the mab?


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## lemeneid (Oct 5, 2020)

Everything really. Better sharpness, cutting ability, food release, everything. This even though my Maboroshi was much thinner.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Everything really. Better sharpness, cutting ability, food release, everything. This even though my Maboroshi was much thinner.



I can't piece that together. 

Metallurgically, white 1 is a very simple steel and therefore has much smaller carbides - how can any aogami super outperform a top quality white steel when it comes to keenness.

To be fair, you said sharpness and not keenness. Thinking about it though, on the lower end finishes like a 2k edge how would AS be any different from white 1? On higher end finishes, like a fine jnat or 8k/10k+ in general, the white steel can be formed into a keener edge than AS. In either case, I can't see how AS would lead to better sharpness.

Cutting ability and food release are generally properties of the grind, so are you saying that the denka grind makes the knife significantly better than a mab? If so, what's stopping people from sending out mabs to JKI or @Forty Ounce to have them reground to a superior knife without the flaws of a stock denka.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 5, 2020)

At the same angles achievable with AS, W#1 will be less stable leading to microchipping or worse. Unless price is a consideration keep the Denka. Post some pics of it and a choil shot. If you only think its just Ok send it to one of the pro mentioned for a thinning/reprofile. I handled a Denka that was a wedge monster so your used example may be in need of a spa day depending on it's current condition.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 5, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> At the same angles achievable with AS, W#1 will be less stable leading to microchipping or worse. Unless price is a consideration keep the Denka. Post some pics of it and a choil shot. If you only think its just Ok send it to one of the pro mentioned for a thinning/reprofile. I handled a Denka that was a wedge monster so your used example may be in need of a spa day depending on it's current condition.



I don't get that. Blue steels are more brittle and prone to chipping than white steels because blue steel has a higher wear resistance at the cost of lower toughness and ultimate keenness. Also, the denka HRC is higher than white 1.

I do agree AS makes ambitious low-angle edges worth it because of the high edge retention, but in terms of chipping, blue steels and especially AS is more susceptible to chipping. 

You are obviously a senior member, but for what it's worth Jon at JKI says the same about blue steels being more chip prone than white steels (timestamp 5:27) )

My knife geometry is thin enough (a tad too thin for my preference, which is why I would like a thicker one).

It's a good knife, I just don't know what I'd be missing out on if I were to switch to a longer length mab.


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## Twigg (Oct 5, 2020)

Uh oh, a video.


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## lemeneid (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> I can't piece that together.
> 
> Metallurgically, white 1 is a very simple steel and therefore has much smaller carbides - how can any aogami super outperform a top quality white steel when it comes to keenness.
> 
> ...


I sharpen my knives to the absolute limit with Jnats, and Denka has at least equal sharpness compared to Maboroshi and keeps it for much longer.

Nothing stopping people from getting their knives reprofiled and ground to their preference, but you will never get the edge retention of Denka. Also Denka are typically forged with more core steel and thicker. So unless you can add steel to the knife, you won’t be able to reach Denka performance by thinning your Maboroshi.


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## lemeneid (Oct 6, 2020)

Also toucou means squat nowadays, TF doesn’t forge knives anymore nor is it an indication of quality. 

And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> I sharpen my knives to the absolute limit with Jnats, and Denka has at least equal sharpness compared to Maboroshi and keeps it for much longer.
> 
> Nothing stopping people from getting their knives reprofiled and ground to their preference, but you will never get the edge retention of Denka. Also Denka are typically forged with more core steel and thicker. So unless you can add steel to the knife, you won’t be able to reach Denka performance by thinning your Maboroshi.



Firstly, I asked what was different _besides the edge retention. _I don't understand how what you say translates to better performance.

How can you say that the denka has "at least equal sharpness compared to mab" when you're polishing to the limit with Jnats (10k+). White 1 will absolutely take a sharper edge than AS at that level of refinement.

It's like making a sand castle cone shape with fine sand vs coarse sand, you're going to get a more refined structure with the former because of the latter's larger stones. Same with carbide size and steel.

All things equal, the theoretical limit of sharpness for W1 is much higher than AS, so what exactly do you mean by "sharpness" if not edge refinement?

Also, if you have a stainless clad knife with an adequate amount of core steel, how does having more of said core steel change the performance? Cutting feel, I can maybe understand - but in what way does having say, 30% more core steel make a knife cut better?



lemeneid said:


> Also toucou means squat nowadays, TF doesn’t forge knives anymore nor is it an indication of quality.
> 
> And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.



I'm well aware TF is too busy making swords and stuff to forge most knives. At best I'd get Sada to do the heat treat. In any case, I would still like the toucou mark for fun. Same with the kanji.

Interesting you think chiseled kanji is "tacky AF" when the kanji stamps on TFs knives don't always come out at uniform depth and look even worse. I wonder if you think that about Hiroshi Kato or Shigefusa marks


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## MarcelNL (Oct 6, 2020)

I wonder what it is that makes you discuss wether WS is better than AS AFTER having bought a Denka? Is it trying to convince yourself that AS is better or trying to justify buying a new Mab, fear of losing out on anything, just trying to understand.

Several folks here have used both, if they say Denka outperforms a Mab, I'm inclined to believe them especially as they have quite a bit of experience, and they do not defend the one knife they have.

My personal observation, with little comparison to go on, is that AS makes for a different sharpness than Swedish or WS steel ad edge retention is far better. I usually take my knifes to 12K (SP), just because I can, not that they need it for most jobs.

BTW: the Shigefusa knives do also not (all?) have hand chiselled Kanji, and I wonder if the Hinoura Nakiri I have is stamped or not.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> I wonder what it is that makes you discuss wether WS is better than AS AFTER having bought a Denka? Is it trying to convince yourself that AS is better or trying to justify buying a new Mab, fear of losing out on anything, just trying to understand.
> 
> Several folks here have used both, if they say Denka outperforms a Mab, I'm inclined to believe them especially as they have quite a bit of experience, and they do not defend the one knife they have.
> 
> ...



Yeah some shigs are stamped. I haven't handled one with stamps before though.

Well, my initial question was should I keep my denka that I like or sell it and get a mab built to my personal specs (longer, thicker, with red yo handle and chiseled kanji). I would like people's input on what I'd be trading if I were to "downgrade" from the denka to a mab. 

I'm not trying to defend my knife or discredit @lemeneid. I'm asking this question because I'm genuinely interested in trading my denka in for a mab if that would give me a better knife for my needs. 

The point of the steel discussion was to logically piece together how @lemeneid gets to his conclusions: how does AS get just as sharp as white, how does having more core steel make a knife perform better, etc.


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## JDC (Oct 6, 2020)

Sounds like a demystify thread


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

JDC said:


> Sounds like a demystify thread



I read the dumpster fire of a toyamanabe vs TF thread and have adjusted my hopes of demystification accordingly.


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## Qapla' (Oct 6, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.


Certainly you could ask them to inscribe "TFTFTF" in romaji instead?

OP: Whichever knife you choose, it'd be cool to see pictures of the knife and the tiramisu.


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## McMan (Oct 6, 2020)

Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose. You’ll lose fifty bucks or whatever the price downgrade is from cooking a dinner or two with it, but it’s looking like this is the price of peace of mind here.

Otherwise, this happens:

You sell the Denka and buy the Mab only to realize that you prefer that Denka after all… It becomes the one that got away. At first, the $2 beer special on Thursdays gets you through things. You’re over the Denka; time to move forward. But it’s hard to forget about that KU… So, finally, it’s back to the well… only to realize that maybe the Mab wasn’t so bad after all… Why did you leave? After all, stainless is stable and predictable and safe and returns your texts. But the “yeah, buts…” kick in yet again… The circle repeats itself, this time spiraling into a raging whirlpool of a hunt for the ideal TF. So, this calls for further research… You’ve convinced yourself that White steel is superior, maybe even seen a Murray Carter video saying so, but then Murray also said he likes blue now, so what to do?--He’s contradicted himself?! Soon, you're immune to $2 beers on Thursdays, you’ve bought six Denka and seven Mabs, only to realize that not one is like another. You’ve probably even started a thread about TF overgrinds by this point, only to receive conflicting opinions there too. You’ve received a lesson in the legendary variability of TFs, lost multiple hundreds for the privilege of that enlightenment, and become a regular on BST...

Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

McMan said:


> Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose. You’ll lose fifty bucks or whatever the price downgrade is from cooking a dinner or two with it, but it’s looking like this is the price of peace of mind here.
> 
> Otherwise, this happens:
> 
> ...



See, if a denka is the best it's going to get, I should wait and save enough to order my ideal specs in the denka line. Except that never happens because TF keeps increasing the price and my money goes towards emotional support tiramisu.


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## juice (Oct 6, 2020)

McMan said:


> Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose.


+1. Save for the Mab, compare, sell the loser/non-winner or keep both.


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 6, 2020)

Or buy a bunch of cheaper but nice knives and live in happiness ever after.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Or buy a bunch of cheaper but nice knives and live in happiness ever after.



I just want one good knife.

I've had experience with watches, yes I really mean I'll be good with only one good knife


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> I just want one good knife.
> 
> I've had experience with watches, yes I really mean I'll be good with just one single good knife


Same here. But finding one single good one has brought more knives to my home than I want to admit. Luckily, selling is a good option. I’ve ended up with at least 4 or 5 magnificent knives (for my taste and preference) none of which are tf, and none of which cost as much as a denka.


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## juice (Oct 6, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> magnificent knives (for my taste and preference) none of which are tf


Then how can that be?


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 6, 2020)

juice said:


> Then how can that be?


Well, I guess it’s common knowledge by now that I have very questionable taste. TFs don’t come in beige


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 6, 2020)

Also, I’m not very fond of tiramisu for the same reason. Too colorful


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Also, I’m not very fond of tiramisu for the same reason. Too colorful



This beige thing is going over my head. In any case, the lack of beige tiramisu must be because you're not adding enough cognac to your mascarpone.


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> This beige thing is going over my head. In any case, the lack of beige tiramisu must be because you're not adding enough cognac to your mascarpone.


Yeah sorry, What I called ’common knowledge’ isn’t common. @juice likes calling me beige Lion because of my appetite for beige food... and knives. 
And Thanks for the tip! I will change the color of that mascarpone until it is deliciously beige!


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Yeah sorry, What I called ’common knowledge’ isn’t common. @juice likes calling me beige Lion because of my appetite for beige food... and knives.
> And Thanks for the tip! I will change the color of that mascarpone until it is deliciously beige!



It was sort of a joke because you'd need to add a lot of cognac for a true beige color and the mixture can start to separate sometimes. I said cognac because it seemed extravagant. I use dark rum most of the time. Boozy tiramisu is really great.


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> It was sort of a joke because you'd need to add a lot of cognac for a true beige color and the mixture can start to separate sometimes. I use dark rum most of the time. Boozy tiramisu is really great.


Yeah, I realized it was a joke - and I liked it! 
Another way to beige a mascarpone is to whip it with a carbon steel knife (it may take some time). And then you don’t want stainless clad!


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Yeah, I thought it was a joke - and I like it!



I'm serious about the rum though! Spiced dark rum works wonders.

I usually make tiramisu to take to parties and add a whole lot. Given the general theme of the parties, using good cognac would be like "casting pearls before swine" as Tiramisu Fujiwara IV says.


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## EShin (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> See, if a denka is the best it's going to get, I should wait and save enough to order my ideal specs in the denka line. Except that never happens because TF keeps increasing the price and my money goes towards emotional support tiramisu.


So the Denka you own is close to the one knife you'd like to have, but you'd prefer a thicker one with more height, and you thought you might be able to get that with a Maboroshi, whereas getting a Denka with said specs would be out of your budget, right? And now you wanna know what you'd give up... As an owner of both a Denka and a Maboroshi, not a lot to add about the steels, I agree with lemeneid. Obviously, they feel a bit different, but still they're clearly from the same maker. So if I was in your situation, having a knife that fits my needs and preferences would be the more important factor than Denka vs. Maboroshi. However, I guess finding your dream Maboroshi with the 刀工 tōkō mark, a red handle that fits your other preferences, too, might be difficult, so you might wanna check first if you can get one...


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## lemeneid (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> I just want one good knife.
> 
> I've had experience with watches, yes I really mean I'll be good with only one good knife


You CANNOT have only ONE watch unlike knives.

I bought my first Batman 8 years ago, now I’m gobbling up Nautilus and VCs 

I need help.


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## ian (Oct 6, 2020)

I know I’m late to the party, but I just wanted to reiterate that the reason Denka AS gets sharper than Mab Wh1 is because it costs more. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.

Certainly both will work fine for tiramisu, although it may be easier to clean the cream off of a non TF knife that doesn’t have hammer marks or kurouchi. Usually I end up cutting my tiramisu on ceramic, though, so you may have to experiment to see how the Denka’s edge retention balances with its chippiness when cutting on such a surface. I think that’s why @McMan is telling you to try both. For such a specialized use, it’s hard to tell which will work best when all you have are reviews concerning more general performance.


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## EShin (Oct 6, 2020)

ian said:


> I know I’m late to the party, but I just wanted to reiterate that the reason Denka AS gets sharper than Mab Wh1 is because it costs more. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.


So would a TF in e.g. AUS8 be sharper than the Denka in AS if it would cost more?

TF's heat treatment of AS being exceptional is the more common explanation, and I find that much more intelligible, and it fits my experience with both knives...


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 6, 2020)

EShin said:


> So would a TF in e.g. AUS8 be sharper than the Denka in AS if it would cost more?



I think the answer is yes! It’s something we all just have to accept.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 6, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Also toucou means squat nowadays, TF doesn’t forge knives anymore nor is it an indication of quality.


Like sticking a Turbo badge on an AMC Pacer?

[/QUOTE]
And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.
[/QUOTE]
Don't tell Ricky


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 6, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> TFs don’t come in beige


I beg to differ


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## lemeneid (Oct 6, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Like sticking a Turbo badge on an AMC Pacer?


And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.
[/QUOTE]
Don't tell Ricky
[/QUOTE]
I've seen TONS of Mercs and Beemers here with AMG and M badges on them like they would give an extra 100hp boost in power.

And Ricky knows, I've told him that tons of times


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 6, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> You CANNOT have only ONE watch unlike knives.
> 
> I bought my first Batman 8 years ago, now I’m gobbling up Nautilus and VCs
> 
> I need help.



What are you doing on that island of yours? Who do I need to kill to be able to afford VCs and Nauts on a monthly basis?

Please help I want to commission a TF in aus 8


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 6, 2020)

I want to commision TF a private display of him casting pearls before swines. I’m ready to provide the pigs.


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## JDC (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> I just want one good knife.
> 
> I've had experience with watches, yes I really mean I'll be good with only one good knife


I started from here too, and look how many knives I have now. I don’t even have time to test which one I prefer over the others...


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## Barmoley (Oct 6, 2020)

Clearly you should sell your Denka and custom order a Maboroshi with your specs. It would be better if you could have both at the same time, but if not possible then sell the Denka and order what you want. Edge retention doesn't sound important to you and there is more to a knife than steel. The Denka you have is not to your liking in a sense that it is not your perfect knife due to length, height, look, etc. Personally, I think, that finding a perfect knife and sticking with just that is futile, but some people might be able to pull this off, you say you are one of these people and you know what features you want in your knife. If you can order what you want do it and don't worry about white 1 vs AS especially since better edge holding is not that important to you.


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## Alder26 (Oct 6, 2020)

What about buying a cheap Nashiji TF to guinea pig the steel? it's been confirmed that the steel is the same as maboroshi. As far you questions about difference between performance of the steels, the answer is simply in the heat treat. 
TF is known for the extra hardness in his steels. I can tell you from experience that his white steel holds and edge a bit longer than any other white steel I've used, it is also quite chippy and brittle. I have not owned a denka but by pretty much all accounts the treatment of AS yields a steel that is slightly harder, tougher, and holds an edge for an eternity. Its all just about heat treatment, not just steel characteristics on paper. 

There are many examples of steel acts uncharacteristically by way of heat treat.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 6, 2020)

Alder26 said:


> TF is known for the extra hardness in his steels. I can tell you from experience that his white steel holds and edge a bit longer than any other white steel I've used, it is also quite chippy and brittle. I have not owned a denka but by pretty much all accounts the treatment of AS yields a steel that is slightly harder, tougher, and holds an edge for an eternity. Its all just about heat treatment, not just steel characteristics on paper.
> 
> There are many examples of steel acts uncharacteristically by way of heat treat.


And don't forget they are dream on the stones, especially surprising for AS given its other properties.


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## parbaked (Oct 6, 2020)

Alder26 said:


> What about buying a cheap Nashiji TF to guinea pig the steel? it's been confirmed that the steel is the same as maboroshi. As far you questions about difference between performance of the steels, *the answer is simply in the heat treat*.



Because Nashiji share the same core steel, but the treatment is different from Maboroshi.
One isn't going to get a good feel for a western Maboroshi by trying out any Nashiji....


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## Alder26 (Oct 6, 2020)

parbaked said:


> Because Nashiji share the same core steel, but the treatment is different from Maboroshi.
> One isn't going to get a good feel for a western Maboroshi by trying out any Nashiji....



I meant only in terms of steel. They’re are lots of differences in the knives other wise


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## ModRQC (Oct 6, 2020)

How do you guys even manage to microchip so many knives? My Mabs works on bamboo without any problem whatsoever. I guess though if I was in the jungle and had to use it as a machete...

I personally like White steel better than AS, especially with TF’s White, but even comparing an Ittetsu White to Deep Impact AS. I guess for the same reason I don’t microchip every knife I use and work a lot on bamboo without either chipping or losing edge in the process, I just find uninteresting how very slightly AS has better edge retention.

I’d sure try the Denka for the whole thing but the steel isn’t what’s most attracting to me.

Also who did that to the heel of the TF in the OP? Might as well condemn half of the edge, with such a good start...


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 6, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Also who did that to the heel of the TF in the OP? Might as well condemn half of the edge, with such a good start...


Well to tbh with the signature TF finger notch, the heel sees little to no action anyway, so no great loss and owners fingers/dishcloths are grateful.


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## Barmoley (Oct 6, 2020)

Microchipping is as much if not more a geometry problem as it is a steel problem. Clearly tougher steel can have thinner edges without microchipping. When you take a relatively low toughness steel, push the hardness very high and then sharpen it to very thin edges you get chipping. You could use a tougher steel, you can lower the hardness or rather heat treat and process for higher toughness or change geometry. A combination of these is what is needed in most cases when designing a knife from ground up. Once you have a knife though, geometry is what you can change as an end user to mitigate some or most of the issues. I am disregarding bad heat treats or steels that are just not appropriate for the application.

As far as TF AS vs TF wh1
This is a total conjecture on my part since I have no information short of anecdotal claims that TF AS is tougher than TF wh1

Looking at this article Toughness Improvement of High Carbon Tungsten Steel 1.2562 - Knife Steel Nerds you can see that high carbon, high alloy steel's toughness can be significantly improved through forging and thermal processing.

AS is very similar to 1.2562 so presumably AS can also be improved in such a way. The toughness improvements are very significant and would put AS/1.2562 toughness significantly higher than wh1 at similar high hardness. Again, I don't know what TF does to their steels or if TF AS is truly tougher than TF wh1, but above could explain such phenomena.


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## ModRQC (Oct 6, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Well to tbh with the signature TF finger notch, the heel sees little to no action anyway, so no great loss and owners fingers/dishcloths are grateful.



How about not looking like this AND removing much less metal? And little action is still action. I know of some circumstances of action you wouldn’t want to have your « length » truncated this way.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

https://buyee.jp/mercari/item/m91637585348



Not the most egregious part of this listing. List price of 165,000Y with a description of "No obvious damages/dirt."


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## M1k3 (Oct 6, 2020)

The ole "It's not a bug, it's a feature"


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> https://buyee.jp/mercari/item/m91637585348
> 
> 
> 
> Not the most egregious part of this listing. List price of 165,000Y with a description of "No obvious damages/dirt."


Ridden hard and put away wet. Totally delusional pricing? For $1600+ you could fly out to Japan, hit the shop, take the forge tour, hammer on some hot steel, buy TF and Gaku a beer, hand select your dream knife and still come out with cash in pocket


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## ian (Oct 6, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> How do you guys even manage to microchip so many knives? My Mabs works on bamboo without any problem whatsoever.



You probably have a higher sharpening angle.

Edit: ah, yea. what @Barmoley said.


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## McMan (Oct 6, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> https://buyee.jp/mercari/item/m91637585348
> 
> 
> 
> Not the most egregious part of this listing. List price of 165,000Y with a description of "No obvious damages/dirt."


The knife in this auction is the same knife in your post that started this thread.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 6, 2020)

McMan said:


> The knife in this auction is the same knife in your post that started this thread.


Thats the progenitor of the OP's dream knife.


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## lemeneid (Oct 6, 2020)

Yeah sorry that buyee knife is sh1t. And not a Denka either.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 6, 2020)

McMan said:


> The knife in this auction is the same knife in your post that started this thread.



Yes, you are correct. It's the first hand-chistled full kanji mab I've seen from TF. I think it would look better than the standard uneven stamp. 

It most certainly is a garbage knife at a ludicrous price. I'm wondering if they forgot to knock off two 0s?


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 6, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Yeah sorry that buyee knife is sh1t. And not a Denka either.


Well to be fair the seller doesn't claim it to be a Denka


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## ModRQC (Oct 6, 2020)

At that price I thought it came with TF dressed like with his dog...


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## ModRQC (Oct 6, 2020)

And thank you very much @Barmoley


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## lemeneid (Oct 7, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Ridden hard and put away wet. Totally delusional pricing? For $1600+ you could fly out to Japan, hit the shop, take the forge tour, hammer on some hot steel, buy TF and Gaku a beer, hand select your dream knife and still come out with cash in pocket


TF doesn’t drink though. But he will smoke more than a Southern BBQ.

And you get to spend “happy time” with him too


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## MarcelNL (Oct 7, 2020)

not sure about flying two way to Japan for 1600 though...

edit; oops, apparently seems possible..must be having flashbacks of what a last minute ticket to Tokio did cost long ago...well over 9K (due to a manager being a roadblock fighting the trip to the end, but failing to)


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Microchipping is as much if not more a geometry problem as it is a steel problem. Clearly tougher steel can have thinner edges without microchipping. When you take a relatively low toughness steel, push the hardness very high and then sharpen it to very thin edges you get chipping. You could use a tougher steel, you can lower the hardness or rather heat treat and process for higher toughness or change geometry. A combination of these is what is needed in most cases when designing a knife from ground up. Once you have a knife though, geometry is what you can change as an end user to mitigate some or most of the issues. I am disregarding bad heat treats or steels that are just not appropriate for the application.
> 
> As far as TF AS vs TF wh1
> This is a total conjecture on my part since I have no information short of anecdotal claims that TF AS is tougher than TF wh1
> ...



Ok so read that article, and am right now comparing toughness results of "normally treated", "Marco treated" AS vs. that of V-Toku 2 (higher toughness than Marco at similar hardness) and Blue #2 (similar toughness than Marco at a bit lower HRC). While the improvement is interesting, and while it's hard to find a comparison with White #1 on Larrin's website (I'm sure I've seen it mentionned a couple of times in previous readings and am right now trying to find any article Larrin may have discussed White #1 - I'd like that there would be a Search function there) I'm looking at all the data collected, and if really TF has that optimal Marco HT (which is a very relative thing depending on different quenching/tempering, and especially since those are hard to get in a small shop forge, and the fact that TF goes for an even higher hardness), I think the very best that could be guesstimated is that an optimally HT AS to similar hardness than an also optimally HT White #1 could be equal in toughness, and probably wouldn't.

I'm not calling this against you or anyone. Just find these matters interesting. My understanding of course lacks of any of the finesse those who know what they're talking about have. But from direct values of results obtained by professional dedicated metallurgist/knifemaker, it's really hard to suppose that, in all things being perfect, TF AS could be tougher than TF White #1.

Perhaps @Larrin could chime in and "verify" those allegations, or just point me towards one of his articles where I'll find more data on White #1. Thanks to anyone that has anything to add to this discussion.


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## M1k3 (Oct 9, 2020)

1095 results will be roughly equivalent to White steels.


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## Barmoley (Oct 9, 2020)

We are making a lot of assumptions, so really anything we conclude is more than likely very wrong. I just pointed out a scenario in which it is possible for AS to be tougher than WH1. Since we have no idea what is done at TF or even how hard the steels really are what conclusion can we make. WH1 is probably similar, but slightly less tough than 26C3. So if AS reacts to improvement the same as 1.2562 then it could be tougher. Too many assumptions.


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> 1095 results will be roughly equivalent to White steels.



I did the same comparison, however difficult to make since the results Larrin displays are to much lower hardness. I suspect White well treated can achieve a higher hardness and retain some toughness, but really the extent of HT that brings a White #1 to 66HRC - if really that - is not something I can find reports on.


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2020)

Thanks guys for replying, btw. I'm still looking at the most data I can. I don't expect to solve anything - just interested.


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## M1k3 (Oct 9, 2020)

Don't forget that White and 1095, to paraphrase @Kippington, have carbon free to wonder around and find other carbon atoms to hang out with and group with, form carbides. Whereas something like 52100 with a little chromium causes the carbon to group up with the chromium in smaller, more spread out groups.

In other words, it's somewhat easier to screw up White steel.


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## parbaked (Oct 9, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Too many assumptions.


If you ask TF he will say his Aogami Super is tougher, more chip resistant and harder to sharpen than his Shirogami.


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2020)

I guess that could arguably be the best assumption of all - coming from the guy that makes it.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 9, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I guess that could arguably be the best assumption of all - coming from the guy that makes it.



He's a few decades removed from the forge, and he's moved on to katanas with sh*tty overgrinds. Trust 0/10.


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2020)

So we’re buying NON-TFTFTFTF now. Good to know - like mine Mabs but won’t go further this way.


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## luuogle (Oct 9, 2020)

Non-Teruyasu Fujiwara I didn't know.


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## Larrin (Oct 9, 2020)

I don’t know if it was the forging of the 1.2562 that improved properties or the marquench so I can’t comment on what led to improvement. More tests will be performed in the future.

But I will say in general that very high carbon low alloy steels do not have impressive toughness. A more general article on that subject would be here: Ranking Toughness of Forging Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds

And in general I have found Japanese carbon steel knives to be relatively brittle.


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2020)

Exactly the one I was searching for thanks so much!


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2020)

"26C3 has relatively high carbon but is only alloyed with a small amount of chromium so it has a more even microstructure than the above high-tungsten steels. The carbides are still significantly larger than a steel like 52100, however. I would expect Hitachi White #1 to have a similar microstructure. 26C3 has relatively high carbon in solution and carbide volume but has decent toughness. I’m not sure what would make it have better toughness than a steel like O1 or 1095, for example. Maybe the superior cleanliness (low impurity elements) advertised by Uddeholm actually does lead to an improvement."

Interesting to me...


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## Renzwerkz (Oct 10, 2020)

Tiramisu Fujiwara...? U meant Teruyasu Fujiwara right...?


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## JDC (Oct 10, 2020)

Did someone say that current TF knives are not forged by TF?


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## ModRQC (Oct 10, 2020)

JDC said:


> Did someone say that current TF knives are not forged by TF?


Yep @sliceanddicebaby


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## ModRQC (Oct 10, 2020)

Renzwerkz said:


> Tiramisu Fujiwara...? U meant Teruyasu Fujiwara right...?



You’re missing on the tremendous fun of a bunch of initial replies...


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## BillHanna (Oct 10, 2020)

Renzwerkz said:


> Tiramisu Fujiwara...? U meant Teruyasu Fujiwara right...?


You don’t find biweekly tftftftf discussions delicious?


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## tchan001 (Oct 10, 2020)

Almost tastes like the biweekly cmcmcmcm mentions.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 10, 2020)

Renzwerkz said:


> Tiramisu Fujiwara...? U meant Teruyasu Fujiwara right...?



Did I? 



JDC said:


> Did someone say that current TF knives are not forged by TF?



99% sure TF does not make all of his knives. He has many apprentices and masters working with him - he's not sitting there hammering out nashiji petties.


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## JDC (Oct 10, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> 99% sure TF does not make all of his knives. He has many apprentices and masters working with him - he's not sitting there hammering out nashiji petties.


I guess what I care about the most is the Denka line, any guess?


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## sliceanddicebaby (Oct 10, 2020)

JDC said:


> I guess what I care about the most is the Denka line, any guess?



Your guess is as good as mine. I know he does not make every denka, though - and I doubt they'd tell you who made it. Maybe if you've spent "happy time" and maybe 10k USD with TF, who knows...

Paging @lemeneid and @Corradobrit1 to provide more unsubstantiated anecdotal lore and muddy the waters further.


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## parbaked (Oct 10, 2020)

JDC said:


> I guess what I care about the most is the Denka line, any guess?


He's not forging your Denka but he will scratch your name on it for free!





The forge is not in the same location as the shop, where he spends most of his time.
A team of craftsmen collaborate on each knife, except for the western handles which are made by either child or prison labor.
TFTFTFTF
I love mine...
You won't know unless you get to try one, arghhhhh


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## daddy yo yo (Oct 11, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Tiramisu only offers momentary pleasure


...and chances are a Denka doesn’t even do that.


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## Henry (Oct 12, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Also toucou means squat nowadays, TF doesn’t forge knives anymore nor is it an indication of quality.
> 
> And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.


Would it not mean more now that TF doesn't forge knives anymore? Or do they still put the toucou stamp on knives produced today? Just asking because I do not know.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2020)

Henry said:


> Would it not mean more now that TF doesn't forge knives anymore? Or do they still put the toucou stamp on knives produced today? Just asking because I do not know.


No they don't mark the blades with tou cou anymore, and haven't for years. The one I picked up in 2018 was a 5+ year old NOS 210 Denka. Some western dealers like Knifewear still had a couple when I was looking.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 12, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> No they don't mark the blades with tou cou anymore, and haven't for years. The one I picked up in 2018 was a 5+ year old NOS 210 Denka. Some western dealers like Knifewear still had a couple when I was looking.



This one purchased in 2019 did. 



bryantcw said:


> I just wanted to make this post showing how I did the initial sharpening on this knife. I’ve been hand sharpening for about 5 years, and only recently bought Japanese knives. This is my second full sharpening to include thinning. I hope someone else sees this and realizes they can do this work if they decide to, without an insane amount of skill, belt sanders, JNats, or expecting perfect results. Here was my process and the results. I made a few different decisions on this knife than the last time I did it, and next time I will apply lessons learned to the next.
> 
> Here is the knife as I received it. Very nice looking knife. The grind was good, just a little uneven in some spots, nothing major at all. The finish on the exposed Jigane was probably 220 grit or so, pretty rough. The lacquer finish was ok. I scrubbed the knife with a worn out green scrubby and the lacquer smoothed out a lot. The handle is rough as others have reported. Doesn’t bother me very much. I might smooth it out, but I’m not sure I care enough to bother with the effort. The finger notch means you really choke up on it in a pinch grip, it makes the knife feel 10mm smaller in your hand. The aesthetic pushes my buttons for sure.
> 
> ...


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2020)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> This one purchased in 2019 did.


From Knifewear. Could be old stock they had in inventory.
So the original buyer gave up on the remedial work and you bought it?


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 12, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> From Knifewear. Could be old stock they had in inventory.
> So the original buyer gave up on the remedial work and you bought it?



Good eye. Yes, I am the current owner of that knife. I'm not sure if I bought it from the original owner.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Nov 14, 2020)

Apparently the boxes were made of actual wood back in the day. This TF box it's literally the most garbage box I've ever held. Low resolution kanji on printer paper cut by a 3 year old and pasted onto the box crooked.










I want another one.


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## ModRQC (Nov 14, 2020)

I’m sure TF is looking at you reprobatively from there right now...


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## btbyrd (Nov 14, 2020)

Only after crudely cutting out paper kanji for years is one allowed to work the wheel to crudely overgrind the knives.


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## sliceanddicebaby (Nov 14, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I’m sure TF is looking at you reprobatively from there right now...



no worries because this swine can throw pearls back


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## bruce8088 (Nov 14, 2020)

the 刀工kanji is just a stray stamp that they use to use more often than not back in the days, it has 0 implication on who in the shop made the blade. every now and it floats its way back into the stations in the shop and they use it. having said that, anyone in the shop have been educated and trained fully to forge and HT as well as each other.


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## ModRQC (Nov 14, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> no worries because this swine can throw pearls back



Ou-iiink ouink ouink!

Swine will keep the pearls but throw mud back.


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## lemeneid (Nov 14, 2020)

bruce8088 said:


> the 刀工kanji is just a stray stamp that they use to use more often than not back in the days, it has 0 implication on who in the shop made the blade. every now and it floats its way back into the stations in the shop and they use it. having said that, anyone in the shop have been educated and trained fully to forge and HT as well as each other.


The TF master has spoken!


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## bruce8088 (Nov 14, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> The TF master has spoken!


TFTFTFTFTFTF


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## ModRQC (Nov 14, 2020)

Why don’t they teach some righteous skills to the guy who welds and finish the handles with the same level of rigor? I mean, if a Wa I guess they can decide not to be bothered because it’s half accessory, but when Yo it sorts of become intrinsic. Changing the scales is one thing, correcting the bolster is another one entirely.


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## panda (Nov 14, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> Apparently the boxes were made of actual wood back in the day. This TF box it's literally the most garbage box I've ever held. Low resolution kanji on printer paper cut by a 3 year old and pasted onto the box crooked.
> 
> View attachment 102946
> View attachment 102947
> ...


this made me laff pretty hard


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## sliceanddicebaby (Dec 9, 2020)

The council debating on whether to keep my denka be like:






Will keep people posted on when a verdict is reached.
(Just an internet picture again, not my denka)


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 9, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> The council debating on whether to keep my denka be like:
> View attachment 105688
> 
> 
> ...


I recognize Gaku, but who are the other two?


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## ModRQC (Dec 9, 2020)

It looks very ominous...


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 9, 2020)

sliceanddicebaby said:


> The council debating on whether to keep my denka be like:
> View attachment 105688
> 
> 
> ...


Fake news. Its not even a Denka


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