# Looking for the Goldilocks of synthetic waterstones



## K813zra (Oct 13, 2016)

Hello everyone, I am new to the site in terms that I have never posted before but have been reading for some time now. I have been sharpening for a number of years and trying out different stones. I have found that some work well for my razors, others work well for my tools and I am still on the fence about what works well, at least according to my preference, for my kitchen knives. Before I tell you what I am looking for I will tell you what I already have and what I like or dislike about them. Maybe that will help lead me in the right direction.

This questions seems to come up in a lot of posts so I will go ahead and tell you what steels I am sharpening.

White #2, Blue #2, VG10 (While I have other steels they are not something I use in the kitchen and fall in line with my stones for tools.)

Stones that I currently have or had.

My first set was as follows:
Beston 500 (An awful, for me, stone. Odd feedback, excessive soaking and slower.)
Bester 1200 (So-so all around.)
Suehiro Rika 5k (I liked this stone but found it to be a little more muddy than I prefer if not used as a S&G stone.)
Kitayama 8000 (There was nothing wrong with this stone but I find it too fine for my needs.)

My first upgrade:
Shapton Pro 
320 (I like this stone much better than the beston. Okay feedback and quick.)
1000 (Again a decent stone that I found to be quicker than my Bester.)
2000 (A great stone for finishing my relatives softer knives.)
5000 (I hate this stone with a passion. It has a strange feel to it that is hard for me to put into words but it was not enjoyable to sharpen on.)

As a general note: I find the shapton stones to be too hard and have little tactile feedback.

Second upgrade:
Chosera 
400 (A good stone all around but sometimes I want a little more aggression.)
1000 (No real complaints other than being on the hard side.)
3000 (I love the edge that comes off this stone and it has good feedback for a hard stone.)

General note: These stones have better, for me, feedback than the shapton stones but I find that they are still harder than I like and the performance for price upgrade just isn't there over the shapton stones.

Misc Stones
King 1000/6000 (Slow, muddy and soft)
Suehiro Cerax 320 (While this is on the soft side I find that it has the feedback and aggression that I am looking for, a keeper. Needs a soak but not overly lengthy.)
Suehiro Cerax 1000 (I love this stone. Not too hard, not too soft, fairly aggressive and has good feedback.)
Suehiro Cerax 6000 (This stone is fairly comparable to its 1000 grit sister but is harder. I know, that seems to be natural but I am looking for something else.)

Assorted diamond plates for stone maintenance and repair work. 

Having said all of that, I was wondering what stones are out there that are harder than kings but softer than shaptons and would compliment my Cerax 320/1000. Something in the 2000-3000 grit range and something in the 5000-6000 grit range. Something that requires a 10-20 minute soak is just fine. 

I did do a lot of reading before making this post and have seen some stones of interest. I noticed that there are stones marketed as Suehiro Rika 3000 and 6000 stones on a site that is not much liked around here. Having said that, I can not seem to find such stones anywhere else. However, if you compare their markings you can find what I believe to be the same stone but under a different name, under said different name I have only found them for sale in Japan. If they are the same stones then their names on Japanese sites are Kouga and shiramine. I don't know if these would fit my needs as I have seen very little information about them but would love to hear feedback.

Another stone of interest in the Gesshin 6000s. I have watched the videos on this stone and it seems to be a fast cutting, softer stone that is muddy but not overly so. 

Anyway, while those stones caught my eye, I am open to all suggestions. 

As an aside, I do use a 3-4 stone progression. As in I use 3 stones typically but add a fourth coarser stone if needed, this isn't often on my own knives. Something like 320-500, 1000, 3000, 6000. 

Sorry in advance for the amount of text and my being picky. However, I have found after reading a lot of threads that a lot of people ask for as much info as they can about the sharpener. Thank you in advance if you can steer me in the right direction!


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 13, 2016)

Personally I absolutely love the Sigma Select II 6000. It's a hard, fast cutting, splash and go, smooth stone with great feedback and it resists dishing very well. You can easily tell what the stone is doing and it produces a great edge. I also find it works equally well on tools and knives. The Sigma Select II 1200 is another great stone. Very aggressive (so aggressive that it removes the skin from your fingers) so it's perfect for setting the bevel. You can use it as a permanent soaker and that makes the stone even better imo. Like the 6000 it's also a hard stone with good feedback and resists dishing very well. The best thing about Sigmas is that they will cut any steel out there.


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## chinacats (Oct 13, 2016)

Gesshin stones are excellent.


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## daveb (Oct 13, 2016)

G2K is kind of a benchmark stone for mid range soakers.


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## K813zra (Oct 13, 2016)

Thanks guys, it seems the Gesshin stones are popular. I have heard of the Sigma too but I am also part of a woodworking forum and from what I gather, they are going to be too hard for my taste. 

As I said, I have watched Jon's videos and from what I gather the 6000s is one that interests me as by description it is softer for a finishing stone and leaves some bite in the edge. The 400 seems like one that would interest me too but I am not sure about the 2000. What is the hardness like? It doesn't need to melt when I use it, just be slightly softer than a shapton. However, I could overlook that if you guys feel that I will fall in love with the feedback.

Like I said, I am liking the Suehiro stones for the most part. Not king soft and not Shapton hard. If the Gesshin stones are anything like that I think I would like them. Part of the reason I came here, not too much talk of Gesshin on woodworking and outdoor forums. Then again, sharpening kitchen knives are not their main interest, lol. 

Thanks again.

Edit: I just noticed that the Gesshin stone set comes with the 6000s. I might have to give that set a try. For some reason I thought it came with the harder splash and go stone so I was avoiding it. That is good news for me.:wink:


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## fimbulvetr (Oct 13, 2016)

I have the Gesshin 2k and the Shapton Pro 2k. The Gesshin is a very little softer, but couldn't feel more different. I keep my G2k permasoaked, and love using it, just because you can really feel what's happening. The edge is also fantastically bitey, without feeling coarse. The Shapton, in contrast, is a great stone to travel with or to use in a shop full of proto-hominids you don't trust with something you care about. The edge is perfectly functional, but never excites me. 

This is all crazy subjective.

I suspect the Gesshin 2k will be a touch harder than you'll dig at first, but you might really like the way it handles once you get going.


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## Ruso (Oct 13, 2016)

Gesshin 2K is an amazing stone. Feedback is superb and it's quite aggressive for being 2K, it's my go-to right now. I would move it closer to 1K stones rather than 3K though.


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## K813zra (Oct 13, 2016)

fimbulvetr said:


> I have the Gesshin 2k and the Shapton Pro 2k. The Gesshin is a very little softer, but couldn't feel more different. I keep my G2k permasoaked, and love using it, just because you can really feel what's happening. The edge is also fantastically bitey, without feeling coarse. The Shapton, in contrast, is a great stone to travel with or to use in a shop full of proto-hominids you don't trust with something you care about. The edge is perfectly functional, but never excites me.
> 
> This is all crazy subjective.
> 
> I suspect the Gesshin 2k will be a touch harder than you'll dig at first, but you might really like the way it handles once you get going.



While I was looking for something a little softer, if the feedback is there it might be worth a try. Like I said before, the chosera 3k is still harder than I like but I do enjoy the stone overall. It does seem that there is a give and take with stones and that I have had to give up one thing to gain another. Just trying to find the right set for me and I hear a lot of good about the Gesshin stones in general.



Ruso said:


> Gesshin 2K is an amazing stone. Feedback is superb and it's quite aggressive for being 2K, it's my go-to right now. I would move it closer to 1K stones rather than 3K though.



That is cool as long as the progression fits. This thread and the suggestions really has me thinking about trying the 3 stone set of 400/2000/6000s. Seems a fair price and I have read nothing but good feedback on the stones.

Thank you both!


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## daveb (Oct 14, 2016)

We are fortunate that two of our sponsoring retailers have developed "house" lines of stones. I've got the Gesshin soakers, 4K, 2K, 4 K and had 8K. A pleasure to use. 

I'm currently playing more with S&G, THE JNS .3K, 1K and 6K as well as the 1K and 6K plates from JKI. They're quite effective but not as much feedback. I

Not a bad choice between them. .


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## foody518 (Oct 14, 2016)

If something is getting labeled Suehiro Rika 3k or 6k, it's misunderstood or misleading. The Rika is the name given to the 5k, Kouga to the 3k, and I think you got it right with Shiramine to the 6k. Being in the same series though, I would expect the Kouga to be patterned in a similar way to the Rika, perhaps the Shiramine as well. I believe Stu from Toolsfromjapan sells the whole Suehiro series and you could try emailing him to ask about how those stones perform & feel.

Gesshin 2k is a crazy fast cutter for its relative grit range.


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## K813zra (Oct 14, 2016)

foody518 said:


> If something is getting labeled Suehiro Rika 3k or 6k, it's misunderstood or misleading. The Rika is the name given to the 5k, Kouga to the 3k, and I think you got it right with Shiramine to the 6k. Being in the same series though, I would expect the Kouga to be patterned in a similar way to the Rika, perhaps the Shiramine as well. I believe Stu from Toolsfromjapan sells the whole Suehiro series and you could try emailing him to ask about how those stones perform & feel.
> 
> Gesshin 2k is a crazy fast cutter for its relative grit range.



Thank you, and yes this forum is how I found the information that the stones are mislabeled. There was already a post about it on here some time ago where someone compared the Kanji. That said, Stu did mention a few years back (2013 I believe) on the woodworking forum that I frequent that there are other Rika stones that are not available outside of Japan but that he was not going to talk about it as he could not yet get them. I have heard or read nothing since. Maybe I will have to shoot him an email as you suggest. If they are the stones from the Suehiro Traditional line I would rather order from Stu.

That said, I am in no way opposed to buying the Suehiro stones and the Gesshin stones. Sharpening is more my hobby than cooking to begin with. That and knives in general.  I say you can never have too many stones, my wife does not agree.


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## foody518 (Oct 14, 2016)

Ah alright. To the best that I've seen the only stone with the script '&#29702;&#33775;' is the Suehiro 5k base and baseless versions :3
I'll have to pull my Cerax 1k out again...have an excess of medium grit stones right now, and the Gesshin 2k is my current default one just from how fast it works relative to its finish level, but I didn't feel the Cerax 1k was exceedingly different in feedback than my Bester 1200, though the Bester 1200 had certainly been broken in much more by this point. I do remember it feeling more pleasant and creamy but possibly a bit softer and dish prone?


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## K813zra (Oct 14, 2016)

foody518 said:


> Ah alright. To the best that I've seen the only stone with the script '&#29702;&#33775;' is the Suehiro 5k base and baseless versions :3
> I'll have to pull my Cerax 1k out again...have an excess of medium grit stones right now, and the Gesshin 2k is my current default one just from how fast it works relative to its finish level, but I didn't feel the Cerax 1k was exceedingly different in feedback than my Bester 1200, though the Bester 1200 had certainly been broken in much more by this point. I do remember it feeling more pleasant and creamy but possibly a bit softer and dish prone?



To be honest, it could just be me. I no longer have the Bester so I can't do a side by side and it has been some years. I had them when I first got my Shapton pro stones and gave them up in favor of the Shaptons. I do still have my Pro stones, Chosera and Cerax stones. For what it is worth, my mother in-law has no issues with the Bester stones as I left them with her before moving to the USA.

I don't know what it is about the Cerax but I just fell in love with them. Maybe I would like the Bester line more if I gave it another go now that I am more experienced. When I switched over to shapton I was all about the splash and go and now not so much. Now the Shaptons are regulated to the workshop with the chisels.

Memory is a funny thing as is taste and how it changes over time. Maybe I am just doing a 180 and didn't realize it.

PS: Will this random question thing to post a comment go away after a number of posts? I always seem to forget to answer it on the first go.:O


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## Ruso (Oct 14, 2016)

K813zra said:


> That is cool as long as the progression fits. This thread and the suggestions really has me thinking about trying the 3 stone set of 400/2000/6000s. Seems a fair price and I have read nothing but good feedback on the stones.
> 
> Thank you both!




Thats what I use most of the times. 300 2000 5000 or as alternative 800 2000 8000


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## K813zra (Oct 14, 2016)

Ruso said:


> Thats what I use most of the times. 300 2000 5000 or as alternative 800 2000 8000



Looks like a good setup. I was looking at the 400/2000/6000 because I either stop at 2000 or finish on 6000 depending on if it is a J-knife or my wife's Forschners.


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## clsm1955 (Oct 15, 2016)

Gesshin 6000s is an awesome stone. On most steels you can go from any quality 1k to the Gesshin 6ks and get a scary sharp edge.


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