# TF or Watanabe?



## lemeneid

After doing some research I’ve narrowed down my search to these two knives. I’m looking for a new 240 gyuto and am narrowing it down to these two. Anyone owns both and can offer opinions on it? I’m using a Mazaki Ku 210 now which is great but I’m looking for something longer now. It’s got to have uncompromising cutting power and performance with good food release. 

Or is there another alternative knife around that price range or max $450.


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## ashy2classy

Watanabe. Top quality and performance from a fantastic smith. As long as the profile works for you, you can't go wrong. Check out Toyama from JNS as well. And the grind on the Wat and Toyama is better as well.

TF - get a good Maboroshi and you'll probably love it. But you get more knife for the money from Watanabe, IMO, assuming your preference isn't for a more rustic finish.


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## bahamaroot

I'd be looking to a Toyama over both.


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## lemeneid

It could look like ass and I wouldn’t care as long as it is a joy to cut with. 

In any case if I get a Watanabe, I will probably swap out the default handle with a heavier one to bring the balance of the knife back a little. With the TF I would get away with that by opting for the western handle. So the overall cost will end up similar. Decisions decisions...


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## Jville

The toyama 240s I had we're really nicely balanced maybe just a hair in front of my pinch grip. They were both nimble workhorses imo. Definitely more nimble than my mazaki 240.


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## McMan

lemeneid said:


> With the TF I would get away with that by opting for the western handle. So the overall cost will end up similar. Decisions decisions...


Western handle might be a crap shoot... I got a western maboroshi where the handle was a dud--had big overgrinds that were filled with black epoxy to square it up to the handle but also just to fill it in. Scales were higher than the tang in places. This was a few years ago, though, so maybe things have changed. 
The blade didn't have issues though.


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## fuzion

I have a denka with western handle and watanabe. The biggest difference to me is one is stainless clad and the other has a reactive iron cladding. The denka is shorter and feels more substantial probably because of the western handle/balance point, otherwise I use them interchangeably.


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## HRC_64

Wat and TF don't really seem like similar knives to me.
Pick by the profile if you are buying users. 
If you are collecting, maybe buy both


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## sac36555

Hands down Toyama for your budget. Powerful knife that falls through food, excellent food release and minimal wedging. He’s a single smith that does everything from start to finish. Also, he’s in his 70s, so his knives won’t be available forever.


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## fuzion

I don't think I said they are similar knives, especially about the profile. Even just with the difference in cladding, length and handle make them quite different. I would still say both of them are more workhorse gyutos and the tasks you'll use them for are probably similar. I'm happy to use either one of them.


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## Anton

Get both, any input you get is meaningless until you cut some stuff and find the one


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## lemeneid

Thanks for the responses everyone. I’m leaning more towards the Watanabe now then the Toyama popped up. I know both are similar knives but what’s the difference between both? All I got out of searching was the master/student relationship they have.


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## lemeneid

Anton said:


> Get both, any input you get is meaningless until you cut some stuff and find the one


Wish I could but the wallet and gf would mind unfortunately


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## fuzion

In terms of usage there's very little difference between Watanabe and toyama. Toyama may have better collectible value and for Watanabe you can customize since you can contact him directly.


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## Anton

I would start with Toyama


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## valgard

I own both, Watanabe Kasumi 240, Tanaka 270, and Watanabe 270. All different knives, very different actually. The Tanaka is the lightest of the bunch by a long shot, spine is comparable but it's ground A LOT thinner, cuts great (the more silent cutter of the three) but release and power isn't as good as Watanabe. Steel I am personally a sucker for the Watanabe (or Toyama since it's the same thing lol) but the Tanaka B1 is no such by any means. 
The tip of the Tanaka is much thinner than the Watanabe and does better on onions OOTB. Profile on Tanaka has a longer flat spot and higher tip while Watanabe has a lower tip and subtle curve.

The Watanabes might not be the most silent cutters (especially the Kasumi) but the blast the produce without mercy, and some tweaking brings them to the next level (thin the tip, and for my Kasumi I raised the convexity's apex a couple mm, the KU has a nice cutting grind but chubby tip).

The Wats are heavy as axes so keep that in mind. Depends on what you like, I prefer the power and all around feel of the Watanabes personally.


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## Alexec

ashy2classy said:


> Watanabe. Top quality and performance from a fantastic smith. As long as the profile works for you, you can't go wrong. Check out Toyama from JNS as well. And the grind on the Wat and Toyama is better as well.
> 
> TF - get a good Maboroshi and you'll probably love it. But you get more knife for the money from Watanabe, IMO, assuming your preference isn't for a more rustic finish.


I think TF could be cheaper if you get it from their website. Or I just didnt find any good prices on watanabe yet


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## Drosophil

Alexec said:


> I think TF could be cheaper if you get it from their website. Or I just didnt find any good prices on watanabe yet



The prices for a 240 kurouchi or kasumi straight from Shinichi are right between a maboroshi and a nashiji straight from TF.


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## Alexec

Drosophil said:


> The prices for a 240 kurouchi or kasumi straight from Shinichi are right between a maboroshi and a nashiji straight from TF.


I thought Maboroshi was cheaper. My bad and thanks for proving me wrong


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## ashy2classy

Wats are $310 for KU or $345 for kasumi from Carbon Knife Co. Maboroshi straight from TF is $389.50 +/- with currency conversion rates. Toyama is $400+ at JNS. With the quality and consistency you get from Watanabe and Toyama, they're better choices overall, IMO. But like Anton said, you'll only know what you prefer by trying both. Good luck!


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## Alexec

ashy2classy said:


> Wats are $310 for KU or $345 for kasumi from Carbon Knife Co. Maboroshi straight from TF is $389.50 +/- with currency conversion rates. Toyama is $400+ at JNS. With the quality and consistency you get from Watanabe and Toyama, they're better choices overall, IMO. But like Anton said, you'll only know what you prefer by trying both. Good luck!


Thanks! Is watanabe and toyama same knife? And is it that high quality?


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## F-Flash

Alexec said:


> Thanks! Is watanabe and toyama same knife? And is it that high quality?



No and yes, they are very high quality.


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## Alexec

F-Flash said:


> No and yes, they are very high quality.


Thanks


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## chinacats

I personally preferred Watanabe to Toyoma though they are very similar knives. Either over a TF unless you enjoy shooting craps.


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## Alexec

chinacats said:


> I personally preferred Watanabe to Toyoma though they are very similar knives. Either over a TF unless you enjoy shooting craps.


I havent tried watanabe or toyama, tho TF maboroshi, gyuto petty and especially Deba have nice steel treatment and preety nice and easy ergonomic structure


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## lemeneid

Anyone has experience with Watanabe’s custom work. I emailed Shinichi regarding putting a western handle on the knife and he’s said he wasn’t experienced in western handles.


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## chinacats

lemeneid said:


> Anyone has experience with Watanabe’s custom work. I emailed Shinichi regarding putting a western handle on the knife and he’s said he wasn’t experienced in western handles.




Yeah, he's a knife maker not a handle maker...but he's a really good knife maker.


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## swarth

TF. Many detractors, sure. Every TF _has the potential_ to be something very special. I cannot say that for Watanabe/Toyama. Serviceable...but they wont blow you away. That said Sin is extremely helpful and knowledgeable and deserves all the praise he gets.


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## labor of love

TF is my next purchase. I don’t really like the tip shape on wats and Toyamas also I don’t like their heavier size(although you can get lighter wats). I’m expecting TF to require some work ootb, not sure whether or not it will be a keeper but I want to try one just the same.


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## bruce8088

I think these 3 are pretty legendary and you can't go wrong with either. I did hear from another forum that Toyama makes the Watanabes (at least the kasumi and honyakis).


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## dwalker

bruce8088 said:


> I think these 3 are pretty legendary and you can't go wrong with either. I did hear from another forum that Toyama makes the Watanabes (at least the kasumi and honyakis).


Not true at all.


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## chinacats

bruce8088 said:


> I did hear from another forum that Toyama makes the Watanabes (at least the kasumi and honyakis).



I'm pretty sure you're wrong...bet I can guess where you read it though...


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## HRC_64

Toyama was of retirement age well before KKF even existed.
(He's approaching 80 or something, isn't he?)


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## jacko9

I have two T-F's a 240 Nashiji Gyuto and a 150 Nashiji Petty - bought them both with the Ebony handle (not available currently). I also have the Toyama 150 Petty. I like the W#1 steel of the T-F but, both my T-F's are more "rustic" than my Toyama which out of the box was excellent fit and finish and takes a great edge. My guess is that both blacksmiths heat treat their knives to the higher end of the RcH scale and both can be chippy if not used with care. Of the three knives the one that I use the most is the T-F Petty (daily use because it keeps such a great edge and because the Toyama Petty is too tall at times using a Petty)


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## Corradobrit1

jacko9 said:


> both can be chippy if not used with care.



From what I can see I think this tendency to chip is related to how the TF's are finished ie on a water wheel (?). Looking at the OOTB edge under a magnifying glass you'll see how toothy it is.
5 mins on the stones when you receive the knife makes the blade edge a lot more stable from that perspective.


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## jacko9

I think your correct and my T-F 240 Gyuto was just fine after I did a full progression on the stones. My T-F 150 Petty however did chip after a slight screwup when I hit the blade on a metal sink (not the blacksmiths fault but an indication of just how hard the blade was heat treated). I had a similar accident with my Toyama Petty (I guess this shows my faulty knife skills) where I chipped the edge with a twisting cut (I know again not the blacksmiths fault).


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## lemeneid

chinacats said:


> Yeah, he's a knife maker not a handle maker...but he's a really good knife maker.


Yeah but I assumed a knifemaker with his experience would have experience making many different knives, even western ones. ‍


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## captaincaed

Just picked up a TF Denka, no experience with the others unfortunately, and here are my thoughts:
1. I got to choose between two, and opted for the heavier/beefier copy. It’s substantial, but still well balanced (both were, actually). Mine does not seem to have an overgrind on the blade road, which was my main concern. If it’s too fat, fine, I can take metal away, but it can never be put back.
2. The other knife seemed to have a distinct overgrind near the heel. This is the version the shop would have sent had I not inspected myself. It is a bit challenging to check, but worth the time.
3. The handle’s not a looker, the spine is harsh, and it’s ugly where the bolster meets the blade.
4. I don’t give a damn. I can round these with sandpaper and a block on a slow weekend if I care to.
5. It whispers through food. That slick, convex stainless jacket over a hard-as-nails blue core (a metal blend that TF has apparently designed himself, if you believe the legends) means that the knife burns through produce like an Australian Bush Fire after a summer drought. I mean, Jesus. It’s got the Top Gear x-factor for me. I don’t want a cigarette, I just want another onion to murder.
6. Food release isn’t the best (my Kochi and Carter (not Muteki) are better). But, it’s pretty damn good, #3 of many. This was also true for the shop’s test cutter TF Maboroshi.
7. I think both the Maboroshi and Denka would be fantastic. It was my birthday after a big health scare, so I splurged on the Denka.

All that said, I’ve never touched either other knife you’re considering. Grain of salt, mate.


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## Corradobrit1

The good TF's are truly special, warts and all. Avoiding overground examples is key, especially if near the edge. Most other issues are easily remedied. Being quirky just adds to their charm so long as the basics are done right.

Funny comment about murdering onions. My sentiments entirely.

And its true that TF's W#1 and AS core steels are proprietary.


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## Drosophil

lemeneid said:


> Yeah but I assumed a knifemaker with his experience would have experience making many different knives, even western ones. ‍



The blades don't have much to do with the handles, he doesn't make the wa handles either.


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## labor of love

TF owners...you guys prefer the AS steel over wh1? I’m curious in terms of steel performance ONLY which one is favored and why?
Or are they pretty similar?


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## Corradobrit1

labor of love said:


> TF owners...you guys prefer the AS steel over wh1? I’m curious in terms of steel performance ONLY which one is favored and why?
> Or are they pretty similar?



Both will sharpen to a very keen edge. My AS Denka is much thinner behind the edge compared to the W#1 Nashiji and Maboroshi, yet it remains sharper longer. After a couple of weeks home use the W#1 needs touching up. The AS is a few months old and apart from a quick 5 mins on the stones to tidy the OOTB edge has not needed further attention. YMMV.


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## captaincaed

Mine’s still new, but I could write a post-mortem a bit later. The OOTB edge was just silly sharp, gets stuck in the board and cuts rolled magazine pages.

If the love is strong, I may very likely pick up a white petty.


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## bruce8088

labor of love said:


> TF owners...you guys prefer the AS steel over wh1? I’m curious in terms of steel performance ONLY which one is favored and why?
> Or are they pretty similar?



Perhaps I can chime in... I've had the chance to own both and AS is better by miles in terms of edge retention - They both get as keen off the stones to the contrary of steel composition (white 1 being more pure by specs). As already covered by folks above, teruyasu fujiwara knives are very rustic but they can be very awesome if you do find a great sample.


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## labor of love

bruce8088 said:


> Perhaps I can chime in... I've had the chance to own both and AS is better by miles in terms of edge retention - They both get as keen off the stones to the contrary of steel composition (white 1 being more pure by specs). As already covered by folks above, teruyasu fujiwara knives are very rustic but they can be very awesome if you do find a great sample.


Are you referring to nashiji or no meito here in comparison to denka?


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## bruce8088

labor of love said:


> Are you referring to nashiji or no meito here in comparison to denka?



I mean both. Nashiji is abit lower hardness (I believe I've read in another forum about this before as well). If you can't stand the rustic part of a teruyasu fujiwara then you should aim for a great sample of a wa handled denka.


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## Corradobrit1

My non scientific experience is that the W#1 used for Maboroshi gives an edge that is more durable. The fact that the Nashiji is a gyuto and the Mab is a petty could have some bearing. I was told the elemental composition is slightly different for the 2 lines so there could be an element of truth there.


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## parbaked

I was at TF in April and they explained that Maboroshi and Nashiji use different grades of White #1.
They had an old book from Hitachi that listed the composition of the different grades of Shirogami #1 and the other Hitachi steels.
Maboroshi uses Grade A which has 1.3 to 1.4 percent carbon by weight.
Nahiji uses Grade B which has 1.2 - 1.3 percent carbon by weight.

The higher carbon content in Grade A helps compensate for carbon lost during forging.


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## Jkts

Shinichi Watanabe was trained by Toyama. Shinichi is also from a multi generation knife making family. 

Toyama himself was trained by a Watanabe. 

They have very similar styles. 

However, Toyama does not make Watanabe’s knives.

The handles are supplied by a handle specialist. From what I understand, sourcing quality handles is a challenge. He told me that one of his better sources for keyaki handles had retired.

His knives definitely are made for wa handles with very few exceptions. I love his style, but if you want a western handle, not the way to go.

I visited Shinichi’s workshop in Sanjo. His family helps out with the knife making. The pro-line is made by Shinichi himself.


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## captaincaed

parbaked said:


> I was at TF in April and they explained that Maboroshi and Nashiji use different grades of White #1.
> They had an old book from Hitachi that listed the composition of the different grades of Shirogami #1 and the other Hitachi steels.
> Maboroshi uses Grade A which has 1.3 to 1.4 percent carbon by weight.
> Nahiji uses Grade B which has 1.2 - 1.3 percent carbon by weight.
> 
> The higher carbon content in Grade A helps compensate for carbon lost during forging.


Man I didn’t realize there were sub-grades within the normal 1,2,3 grades from Hitachi. Now I don’t even know what to believe anymore. Maybe I should just orient all my maps so Australia is on top. There’s no reason not to, right?


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## Itsalright

I own both brands knives @ 24cm. I find watanabe to be a little bit thicker and more muscular knife while TF is lighter.
Fit and finish on watanabe is exceptional while TF gets its real edge after maintentance


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## ared715

The steel is the definite highlight of TF knives IMO.... I have two and they don’t get used very regularly.... one 210 I got directly from him with finger rest (nashiji) and the other I got from knifewear (nashiji 195 western). The grind on the 195 is much thinner and smoother with less pronounced shoulders but the 210 is much thicker with very pronounced shoulders and wedges a lot. I requested a thin knife and got what seems to be almost mioroshi Deba -like.... while it has its uses, it doesn’t get used much at all....
The steel is awesome though,hardest white steel variant I’ve ever come across....


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## Itsalright

ared715 said:


> The steel is the definite highlight of TF knives IMO.... I have two and they don’t get used very regularly.... one 210 I got directly from him with finger rest (nashiji) and the other I got from knifewear (nashiji 195 western). The grind on the 195 is much thinner and smoother with less pronounced shoulders but the 210 is much thicker with very pronounced shoulders and wedges a lot. I requested a thin knife and got what seems to be almost mioroshi Deba -like.... while it has its uses, it doesn’t get used much at all....
> The steel is awesome though,hardest white steel variant I’ve ever come across....


I thought nashiji line didnt have finger rest option


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## labor of love

Finally picked up wh1 no meito gyuto. Very happy with it. Kinda kicking myself for not trying it sooner. Classics are classic for a reason.


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## masibu

labor of love said:


> Finally picked up wh1 no meito gyuto. Very happy with it. Kinda kicking myself for not trying it sooner. Classics are classic for a reason.


Ive been wanting to try one for years. How does it compare to watanabe? I like my wat but it's pretty beastly. Ive used 2 tf petty knives and whilst they both needed work on the bevels with coarse stones I found it was ridiculously easy to grind. I've thought about shaving with one just for kicks


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## ared715

I requested one while ordering direct and he did it for me on a Nakiri and 210 Gyuto


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## ared715

210 Gyuto w finger rest.


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## labor of love

masibu said:


> Ive been wanting to try one for years. How does it compare to watanabe? I like my wat but it's pretty beastly. Ive used 2 tf petty knives and whilst they both needed work on the bevels with coarse stones I found it was ridiculously easy to grind. I've thought about shaving with one just for kicks


Mine is lighter than I thought it would be. It’s somrwhere between 190-200 grams, 53mm x 244mm. I was expecting to put in thinning work ootb but surprisingly I like how it cuts-a lot. Infact I’ll likely wait as long as I can for thinning. F&F is on par with a metal master Tanaka. whatever high/low spots that hide underneath the finish don’t effect performance. Food release is very good. I’m still in my honeymoon phase so I really want to hold off until I can test it more but so far I’ve used it for 5 shifts at work and I like it a helluva lot.


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## ared715

I need to try a maboroshi too labor... did you order yours direct? Last time I emailed TF he suggested me to order a maboroshi if I wanted a thinner blade overall....


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## labor of love

Well this is the only no meito Ive ever used so I don’t know if it’s thin or thick compared to others. I went through bernal, hounded them first with my concerns haha...they only have 1 more 240mm wa left in stock and they said the one I purchased was in much better condition than the other one. They may have a selection of westerns though.... anyway if I were you I’d harass them about not wanting a hole in the edge or serious overgrinds and see what they say...better than going direct I think Atleast for no meito. Eventually I’ll try and grab a denka direct.


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## parbaked

The wa handled Maboroshi at Bernal have much better fit and finish than the ones I saw at the TF shop in Tokyo.
I thought they looked good.
Josh just opened a 2nd store in Oakland so they will have more inventory on hand...


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## labor of love

Surprisingly enough the ho wood handle on mine is actually very nice. Very smooth. The installation is crap though.


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## McMan

labor of love said:


> Surprisingly enough the ho wood handle on mine is actually very nice. Very smooth. The installation is crap though.


That's a good sign. If the handle's properly installed, it means the blade's wonky.
For Mechanics: Fast. Correct. Cheap. Choose two.
For TFs: Good handle. Good blade. Choose one.


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## masibu

labor of love said:


> Mine is lighter than I thought it would be. It’s somrwhere between 190-200 grams, 53mm x 244mm. I was expecting to put in thinning work ootb but surprisingly I like how it cuts-a lot. Infact I’ll likely wait as long as I can for thinning. F&F is on par with a metal master Tanaka. whatever high/low spots that hide underneath the finish don’t effect performance. Food release is very good. I’m still in my honeymoon phase so I really want to hold off until I can test it more but so far I’ve used it for 5 shifts at work and I like it a helluva lot.



That sounds like a decent size, once the heel goes sub 50 I find that a 240 gyuto starts feeling a little on the small side. I've bought tanaka from metal master in the past and didnt have a problem with the fit and finish. It was the first knife I ever thinned out.


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## parbaked

Bicycle components: cheap, light, strong...pick two.

The TF handles at Bernal looked fine, as good as the ones on their Wakui knives
I thought Bernal might install the handles, but the knives come like that from TF.


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## labor of love

masibu said:


> That sounds like a decent size, once the heel goes sub 50 I find that a 240 gyuto starts feeling a little on the small side. I've bought tanaka from metal master in the past and didnt have a problem with the fit and finish. It was the first knife I ever thinned out.


It really is the perfect blade shape and measurements/weight for me. I mean, I have lighter thinner stuff also and heavier stuff too. But this TF is a good all arounder.
I would say that my handle is slightly nicer than my wakui from bernal but at this point we’re realky splitting hairs. I guess I expected the worst from TF in every way except heat treat and I’ve been pleasantly surprised that in my instance everything worked out.


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## Corradobrit1

Another happy customer........a winner on the TF lottery


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## masibu

labor of love said:


> It really is the perfect blade shape and measurements/weight for me. I mean, I have lighter thinner stuff also and heavier stuff too. But this TF is a good all arounder.
> I would say that my handle is slightly nicer than my wakui from bernal but at this point we’re realky splitting hairs. I guess I expected the worst from TF in every way except heat treat and I’ve been pleasantly surprised that in my instance everything worked out.



We seem to have similar taste, ive been eyeing of the wakui for a few months now. I actually ordered it and cancelled it a few weeks ago. It looks to be a decent all rounder similar to my old itinomonn carbon. My next higher end purchase will be either a wakui or tf nashiji as I no longer have a white gyuto. A misono gyuto is coming my way to fill the unclad carbon void in my life until then. I've been using stainless for a while now, carbon steel feels like I'm cheating when on the stones in comparison. The difference is night and day.


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## Marek07

Itsalright said:


> I thought nashiji line didn't have finger rest option


Teruyasu Fujiwara's website does say that the finger rest is not an option for the nashiji range. However when I ordered my nashiji nakiri, I requested it stating something like "if at all possible". It came with the finger rest just like @ared715's knives. It's really great in use on the shorter 165mm nakiri.


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## labor of love

masibu said:


> We seem to have similar taste, ive been eyeing of the wakui for a few months now. I actually ordered it and cancelled it a few weeks ago. It looks to be a decent all rounder similar to my old itinomonn carbon. My next higher end purchase will be either a wakui or tf nashiji as I no longer have a white gyuto. A misono gyuto is coming my way to fill the unclad carbon void in my life until then. I've been using stainless for a while now, carbon steel feels like I'm cheating when on the stones in comparison. The difference is night and day.


It might be hard to find a 50mm tall wakui. I reached out to epic edge once about it and they weren’t too interested in helping me with it but you might have better luck than I did. I dunno, I just received this TF. Let’s how I feel about it in a month.


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## bruce8088

Corradobrit1 said:


> Another happy customer........a winner on the TF lottery



Another happy user of fujiwara san's knives!


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## Corradobrit1

There are a few of us out there. 4x winner here. All purchased direct


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## captaincaed

I feel ike I’ve won the lottery with my Denka as well. The edge has been chippy, as promised, but my god is it sharp. The edge just holds and holds where it hasn’t chipped. I’m with Labor, that I’m happy with the geometry behind the edge, and I’m reluctant to make any alterations. Not magical food release, but really quite good. One small gripe is that there isn’t a great flat spot at the heel. I’ll be agressively flattening for the first couple sharpenings with the hopes of reducing the belly slightly.

Did I meantion it’s so sharp it’ll cut you for looking at it the wrong way? It’s like my Asai aogami super - that thing nearly took my finger off washing it. I looked at the stove for a split second, and when I looked back the sink was red and I hadn’t felt anything. I’m worried the Denka is going to finish the job.

Honestly though I am very happy I spent time selecting one. I think I’d have worried about the flat / low spot in the grind on the other one I looked at.

I will also say the width of the spine was probably 0.5-0.8mm different between the two. Probably a 20-40g weight difference as well. Really wild.


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## chinacats

If your edge is chippy I would imagine it needs a full sharpening. If ht is worthy of all the bragging done you shouldn't have a chippy knife.


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## Corradobrit1

chinacats said:


> If your edge is chippy I would imagine it needs a full sharpening. If ht is worthy of all the bragging done you shouldn't have a chippy knife.



Yes a few mins on the stones will cure that OOTB tendency to micro chip.


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## ared715

Yeah I’ve gotten micro chipping OOTB on all three of my Nashiji knives from him(210,195,Nakiri).... like Chinacats says, a full progression will most likely solve this issue as it did for me....


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## captaincaed

Cool, I'm glad to hear this is still the norm. I expected it, so I'm not put off. 

I liken this to the Campy/Shimano bike parts discussion. Campy feels clunky at first, but wears _in_. Shimano feels great OOTB, but wears _out_. 

Am I the only bike nerd here?


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## Corradobrit1

captaincaed said:


> Am I the only bike nerd here?



Nope. Campy FTW


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## Mucho Bocho

Campy for bikes and Shimano for reels.


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## lemeneid

Damn, I was all set on the Watanabe initially but now I’m really tempted by the TF.

But statistically speaking, how likely is it to get a dud that would make the knife unusable. Not talking about stuff like unrounded spine and choil or off balance but things like overgrinds, recurves and bent blades?


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## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> Damn, I was all set on the Watanabe initially but now I’m really tempted by the TF.
> 
> But statistically speaking, how likely is it to get a dud that would make the knife unusable. Not talking about stuff like unrounded spine and choil or off balance but things like overgrinds, recurves and bent blades?



If you decide to order direct, talk/email Gaku. He's quite fluent with English. Explain exactly what you're looking for and the desired specs. For me weight was of prime importance as was a nicely defined exposure of the core (hate when the cladding extends into the edge). I didn't want a heavyweight. Have him select a few examples, send you pics including choil and check for obvious overgrinds. I usually got 4 or 5 possible contenders for each knife type I wanted. Get him to measure heel height, weight and edge length. Gaku is only too happy to assist and i've found him to be honest and reliable. I even had Fujiwara-san reprofile and thin my 210 Denka gyuto. Not many manufacturers will go to those lengths to accommodate the customer.
By doing your homework and due diligence you'll minimize the chance of disappointment.


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## captaincaed

I tend to agree. Put in the legwork, however you do it.


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## captaincaed

Corradobrit1 said:


> Nope. Campy FTW


I can't even look at my Shimano anymore. I just got bored with her.


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## chinacats

Just buy the Watanabe...you'll get a great knife and won't have to gamble.


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## Corradobrit1

Where's the fun in that? Take a chance.


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## lemeneid

Corradobrit1 said:


> Where's the fun in that? Take a chance.





chinacats said:


> Just buy the Watanabe...you'll get a great knife and won't have to gamble.


Not gambling, I’m gonna buy direct from TF in Japan when I have some free time in one of my upcoming monthly trips to Japan.

Just need to know what to check out for when I select the knives.


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## chinacats

If you're going to be in Japan, why not visit both...and maybe a few others?


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## Corradobrit1

If you have some time to kill why not get the TF 'experience'. If you call ahead and they have time they are happy to let you get your hands dirty in the forge area. That should be very informative and fun.


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## aaamax

captaincaed said:


> ...I liken this to the Campy/Shimano bike parts discussion. Campy feels clunky at first, but wears _in_. Shimano feels great OOTB, but wears _out..._



I like the way you put that and this is how I see Wats as well (assuming that is what you meant). A true, bloody workhorse with no end. A bit clunky, but damn if she doesn't do the job perfectly. Love it!


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## labor of love

lemeneid said:


> Damn, I was all set on the Watanabe initially but now I’m really tempted by the TF.
> 
> But statistically speaking, how likely is it to get a dud that would make the knife unusable. Not talking about stuff like unrounded spine and choil or off balance but things like overgrinds, recurves and bent blades?


Don’t pay any mind to me. I was just as excited the first time I used a watanabe gyuto. It blew me away and felt like nothing else I had used up to that point.
If you’re a jknife enthusiast I’d recommend trying all the classics at some point. KS, takeda, watanabe, TF...etc etc...


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## mattador

Anyone ever use a no meito yo petty? How thick are they normally behind the edge? I'm looking into replacing my trusty takamura r2 with something that has a little more soul.


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## Corradobrit1

My last purchase was a Maboroshi 120mm Yo petty with Ku, no hammer finish. Quite unique. Leftover from a special one-off Wedding order for invited guests. Mine is very thin behind the edge. The others (standard hammered, polished blade) I was shown were noticeably thicker.

Pics here
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/show-your-newest-knife-buy.7655/page-375#post-555097


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## labor of love

I wouldn’t mind a TF maboroshi Petty 150mm. But after comparing prices at bernal to a heiji Petty from JKI (w saya) it’s a close call. How much is a TF petty direct?


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## mattador

labor of love said:


> I wouldn’t mind a TF maboroshi Petty 150mm. But after comparing prices at bernal to a heiji Petty from JKI (w saya) it’s a close call. How much is a TF petty direct?


About $180 w/ a saya


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## mattador

I want one but every single one I've seen is really thick behind the edge. I suppose I'll shoot some emails to TF directly and see what he has.


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## maxim

Let me clear things up as it come op very often now
Toyama is Learned and apprenticed from old Tadafusa, he have never learned from Watanabe or teached any of Watanabe members, As we can see in Japan Toyama sells some of his knives to Watanabe i have seen it my self and there is no question about it what so ever


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## Anton

"Toyama sells some of his knives to Watanabe i have seen it my self and there is no question about it what so ever"

this.... interesting, not sure how I feel about this... Assuming it's common practice tho. 

@maxim - are you in a position to share which Watanabe line might be by Toyama?


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## maxim

I don't know if it is a line or just some single knives, but i guess you will see when Toyama retire witch will be probably soon


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## Jkts

Shinichi told me that Toyama was his master and also spoke of others he learned from. Toyama is a common name in that region. I assumed this was the same Toyama given the similarities of their style.


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## Jkts

Reading through my emails again, I had linked shinichi to one of these discussions and he was explaining the relationship. 

Shinichi is a young master (around 48) and Toyama is of an earlier generation.

I think before implying that one master makes another’s knives, it would be better to know the specifics. What we write on the internet stays forever.


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## F-Flash

Would Be Epic, If toyama made Watanabe kasumi gyutos for example, since people have sayd they Are so Similar.
(Only own toyama kasumi 240 gyuto, so cant compare them, just what others have sayd)


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## F-Flash

Could it Be that both blades Are made by toyama, but have different sharpeners?


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## maxim

Jkts said:


> I think before implying that one master makes another’s knives, it would be better to know the specifics. What we write on the internet stays forever.



Thats why i wanted clarify and make it clear that Toyama Noborikoi Maker have never been teacher by Watanabe or have been taught by him. 
Why knives is so similar i explained, Watanabe have many orders from Toyama Noborikoi Maker and other blacksmiths in Japan, as i have seen and many in Japan know


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## valgard

F-Flash said:


> Could it Be that both blades Are made by toyama, but have different sharpeners?


The sharpener is VERY VERY likely the same too, they even have a tendency to show low spots in the same places . There's little doubt for me that they are the same knives all made by Toyama TBH , despite the fact that some people refuse to see it.


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## JBroida

valgard said:


> The sharpener is VERY VERY likely the same too, they even have a tendency to show low spots in the same places . There's little doubt for me that they are the same knives all made by Toyama TBH , despite the fact that some people refuse to see it.



In that region there is no separation of blacksmith and sharpener for what it’s worth. On this subject, and as I’m in Japan right now talking with various craftsmen, people here have been commenting how the industry has become much more shady and dishonest over the years. It’s a big issue for many here, but they are also scared to get out there and correct misinformation. I feel the same way... I see a ton of stuff that is just wrong (either customers are being lied to or there are significant miscommunications) but correcting them puts me in an odd situation as I have to give up industry secrets that I have been asked not to share, or that the blowback of me correcting things comes back on people I am close with here. I think it would be helpful to remember that despite the seemingly common stereotypes we have, not all Japanese people are honest and operate with integrity. Some people are just trying to make money. Also, the vast majority of you guys don’t speak Japanese, so miscommunications happen often, unintentional as they may be. And lastly, there are things about the industry you may not be privy to... for example (and I am saying this because I know this person will be ok with me saying this, but this is true for so many places), Knives form Ashi Hamono are not all made by Ashi-San. Just because something comes from a workshop bearing someone’s name, doesn’t mean that person made it. Additionally, it’s important to understand that in Japan, even if the person is not a craftsman, if they are responsible for ordering the rough forged blank and arranging the sharpener for it, as well as often putting the handle on, etc., they will say “we made this Knife” or “this is our Knife”. Beyond that, not every company works with every craftsman, so sometimes they will not give accurate information about who does what in order to make a sale. I have seen this with my own eyes, so now I only trust what I know from first hand experience or from those I have learned I can trust over the last 9+ years of working with these guys directly. As someone said earlier, what you post online stays here forever. I think many have a bit too much confidence in themselves and the knowledge they think they have. And sometimes, even if they are right, they lack the understanding of what is acceptable to put out there as public information as a function of what the craftsmen want. I’ve been here for a couple of weeks already, and it wasn’t my intention to talk about this so much, but it has come up in nearly every meeting I have had with craftsmen.


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## Jkts

Jon, I appreciate the comment. Particularly not disclosing what people may not want out there. There seems to be a lot of cooperative work going on between companies large and small.


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## JBroida

Jkts said:


> Jon, I appreciate the comment. Particularly not disclosing what people may not want out there. There seems to be a lot of cooperative work going on between companies large and small.



There are indeed many complicated and delicate relationships


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## maxim

valgard said:


> The sharpener is VERY VERY likely the same too, they even have a tendency to show low spots in the same places . There's little doubt for me that they are the same knives all made by Toyama TBH , despite the fact that some people refuse to see it.


As Jon said, all is done in the house by Toyama also sharpening, however they can change heat-treat grind knaji etc. 
big +1 on everything Jon said !


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## lemeneid

On this topic, what about “Certified Craftsmen” knives? Can we confidently purchase those knives be 100% certain it’s said person who forged and sharpened the knives.

I definitely understand where Jon and Maxim come from. I trade A5 Japanese beef and it’s even shady as hell. From what I’ve learnt, there’s a lot of beef out there I wouldn’t pay the premium for, that includes Kobe beef.


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## Anton

Jon - As always, your transparency and respect for the trade continues to go above and beyond


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## maxim

lemeneid said:


> On this topic, what about “Certified Craftsmen” knives? Can we confidently purchase those knives be 100% certain it’s said person who forged and sharpened the knives.
> 
> I definitely understand where Jon and Maxim come from. I trade A5 Japanese beef and it’s even shady as hell. From what I’ve learnt, there’s a lot of beef out there I wouldn’t pay the premium for, that includes Kobe beef.



I had similar experience as Jon last time i was in Japan so thats why i get fed up with misinformation that circling around, every year it become more and more shady business, and many try to take advantage of western marked. You see a lot now made in Japan that is actually in china, steel, parts even work is outsourced but still stamped made in Japan


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## JBroida

lemeneid said:


> On this topic, what about “Certified Craftsmen” knives? Can we confidently purchase those knives be 100% certain it’s said person who forged and sharpened the knives.
> 
> I definitely understand where Jon and Maxim come from. I trade A5 Japanese beef and it’s even shady as hell. From what I’ve learnt, there’s a lot of beef out there I wouldn’t pay the premium for, that includes Kobe beef.



I would love to say yes, but the answer is not always. That's why it's important to buy from people that you can either communicate with directly in their language and/or people that you trust implicitly. Of course what I say is be ideal, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be the right fit for everyone. My goal is that people have a better understanding of what is and what is not true more than anything else, and that seems to be a difficult thing for people to discern now days. I can't tell you the number of things that I see on here where they are blatantly false and/or things where the company selling them have been asked not to mention the things publicly that they tell the customers. People in Japan are angry.


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## tgfencer

Interesting insight, Jon, as always. I feel most industries are like this to one degree or another. As a farmer, I can certainly attest that the food production industry, particularly meat, operates with similar methods. Trust is a hard commodity to attain these days and many times its simply not possible for the end consumer who is not involved in the industry to accurately judge right/wrong, truth from lie, despite their best efforts.


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## Hanmak17

JBroida said:


> I can't tell you the number of things that I see on here where they are blatantly false and/or things where the company selling them have been asked not to mention the things publicly that they tell the customers. People in Japan are angry.



What are they angry about? Not to sound insensitive but if the industry is that "shady" (not generally but in certain segments), why would the honest craftsman be angry at the consumer looking for honest information. "Buyer beware" is a global paradigm. Consumers seeking the best and most accurate information would seem to be in alignment with the honest craftsman objectives.


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## toddnmd

I took Jon's comment to mean that the honest ones are upset with the dishonest ones (rather than consumers) because they make the entire industry look bad. And then consumers have less faith in everyone (and may be less likely to buy products) because it is difficult to discern the honest people from the dishonest ones.


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## JBroida

Hanmak17 said:


> What are they angry about? Not to sound insensitive but if the industry is that "shady" (not generally but in certain segments), why would the honest craftsman be angry at the consumer looking for honest information. "Buyer beware" is a global paradigm. Consumers seeking the best and most accurate information would seem to be in alignment with the honest craftsman objectives.



Based on the kinds of relationships that exist here, not every craftsman wants their name out there when they do essentially oem work... this effects their relationship with various companies they do this for, as well as their overall brand image depending on the product/series. Additionally, trade secrets that are shared in person and in confidence to people they think they can trust often get put out there to the public, which has an effect on the way they have to deal with competition and copycats in Japan. All that plus what was said above.


----------



## bennyprofane

maxim said:


> Thats why i wanted clarify and make it clear that Toyama Noborikoi Maker have never been teacher by Watanabe or have been taught by him.
> Why knives is so similar i explained, Watanabe have many orders from Toyama Noborikoi Maker and other blacksmiths in Japan, as i have seen and many in Japan know



So what is being said here? That Watanabe is a liar? He has told me personally in an email that he learned from Toyama. He also told me that they make their knives in an almost identical process but there are some differences, for example in their equipment.

These are strong allegations and I have come to known Watanabe as a very honest and trustworthy person. I have also not had a Japanese knife which I liked better than the ones from Watanabe so reading this is really quite surprising and hard to believe.


----------



## Hanmak17

JBroida said:


> Based on the kinds of relationships that exist here, not every craftsman wants their name out there when they do essentially oem work... this effects their relationship with various companies they do this for, as well as their overall brand image depending on the product/series. Additionally, trade secrets that are shared in person and in confidence to people they think they can trust often get put out there to the public, which has an effect on the way they have to deal with competition and copycats in Japan. All that plus what was said above.


Ah got it. Being an OEM is a tricky business, don't want to steal your best customers thunder...

All this being said, it seems to me that the market is ripe for innovation and more contemporary business/manufacturing practice. The demand for quality and individual craftsmanship is growing enormously. Understand that is entirely western school of thought but I am starting to see the Japanese "coming around", success and profit translate well.


----------



## JBroida

Hanmak17 said:


> Ah got it. Being an OEM is a tricky business, don't want to steal your best customers thunder...
> 
> All this being said, it seems to me that the market is ripe for innovation and more contemporary business/manufacturing practice. The demand for quality and individual craftsmanship is growing enormously. Understand that is entirely western school of thought but I am starting to see the Japanese "coming around", success and profit translate well.



What you are seeing is the result of a situation that benefits customers but is destroying the industry here in unimaginable ways. It’s a very in the moment way of thinking that lacks the forward thinking thought that will allow this industry to grow and survive in a sustainable way. This is the consensus here in Japan, though many people/companies, for fear of going broke, give in to what western customers are demanding.


----------



## Ruso

bennyprofane said:


> These are strong allegations and I have come to known Watanabe as a very honest and trustworthy person



He did not give me the same impression for example. Sometimes I am wonder if the people who answer the emails are actually them.


----------



## Jville

maxim said:


> Thats why i wanted clarify and make it clear that Toyama Noborikoi Maker have never been teacher by Watanabe or have been taught by him.
> Why knives is so similar i explained, Watanabe have many orders from Toyama Noborikoi Maker and other blacksmiths in Japan, as i have seen and many in Japan know



I really, really appreciate you addressing this. This is something that I've wondered about alot and was a little confused about. Sometimes it would seem like someone has a knife that is basically an equal/same knife as a toyama. And other times they seem different.


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## maxim

bennyprofane said:


> So what is being said here? That Watanabe is a liar? He has told me personally in an email that he learned from Toyama. He also told me that they make their knives in an almost identical process but there are some differences, for example in their equipment.
> 
> These are strong allegations and I have come to known Watanabe as a very honest and trustworthy person. I have also not had a Japanese knife which I liked better than the ones from Watanabe so reading this is really quite surprising and hard to believe.



I am just telling the facts about Toyama, i spend 4 days with him making video of how he makes knives, i deal with him quite long time now.
He had never learned anyone making knives, so take it as you want from Watanabe.


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## Sharpchef

Anyone thought of the babylonian confusion ????


----------



## aaamax

oh this is GOOD! I haven't seen something like this in a long, long time here on this site (actually, this might be the biggest). 
Well, I am blown away and unfortunately not surprised. 
So in a nutshell. You the consumer are not getting a knife made by the house you believe you are purchasing from. That custom xyz you are paying premium for because you think you are having it made by a specific blacksmith/knifesmith can in fact be made by an entirely different crew. Bad enough that a given knife is not made by the main Smith who's name the house often carries, but by one of his underlings, but this here is off the charts.
Is it common practice in other branches of business? of course. But this was a craft that many of us believed was a hold over from a bygone era. 
Looks like we were wrong.
Does anyone else's rear hurt?


----------



## bennyprofane

Sharpchef said:


> Anyone thought of the babylonian confusion ????



Exactly what I was thinking. I’m guessing Maksim doesn’t speak Japanese and he only speaks a little English. Toyama probably doesn’t speak any English so there must have been a translator (I’m guessing). There is a lot of room for things to be lost in translation. Why would Watanabe make these stories up? If he wants to make stories up, he could have chosen a more famous blacksmith than Toyama. So maybe, Maksim, you misunderstood a few things but maybe not.
I just think that these allegations are very serious, they are against a blacksmith who makes knives which always compete with the ones you are selling and I think there should be more proof or at least some background of how exactly you came to know this.


----------



## nonoyes

Interesting discussion. Isn't it demand and demands from the west that revitalized the industry in the first place?

So production ability of even top makers outstrips demand for high-end endorsed knives so they sell excess production capability to "lower" brands?

Seems fair and I think Jon has handled this well, trying to protect this business model which enables craft blades in the first place, and also protecting his own position and profit margin.

But I don't know how you stop people from being curious and looking for deals on hand-made knives.

Yet I appreciate the warnings in regards to misinformation.


----------



## tgfencer

JBroida said:


> What you are seeing is the result of a situation that benefits customers but is destroying the industry here in unimaginable ways. It’s a very in the moment way of thinking that lacks the forward thinking thought that will allow this industry to grow and survive in a sustainable way. This is the consensus here in Japan, though many people/companies, for fear of going broke, give in to what western customers are demanding.



If its not asking you to break any confidences or reveal secrets, could you tell us what exactly the western demands are that are threatening the industry? I'm not sure I can fully see the situation that is benefiting consumers but destroying the Japanese industry, though I don't doubt its there. The livelihood of others is important and I for one would like to understand so as to be more informed in the future. 

And thanks again, Jon, for stepping in and reminding us gently that we don't always know what we are talking about. This forum can be a rather insular place and misinformation breeds quickly.


----------



## bennyprofane

aaamax said:


> oh this is GOOD! I haven't seen something like this in a long, long time here on this site (actually, this might be the biggest).
> Well, I am blown away and unfortunately not surprised.
> So in a nutshell. You the consumer are not getting a knife made by the house you believe you are purchasing from. That custom xyz you are paying premium for because you think you are having it made by a specific blacksmith/knifesmith can in fact be made by an entirely different crew. Bad enough that a given knife is not made by the main Smith who's name the house often carries, but by one of his underlings, but this here is off the charts.
> Is it common practice in other branches of business? of course. But this was a craft that many of us believed was a hold over from a bygone era.
> Looks like we were wrong.
> Does anyone else's rear hurt?



Actually, my Watanabes are still my favourite Japanese knives and I have tried a lot. Their performance doesn’t change with these infos. I even like them better than Toyamas (but that could have been due to spread). This won’t change.

But I have been emailing a lot with Watanabe and it’s hard for me to fathom that he doesn’t make the Pro Line (the cheaper ones would be more understandable) since he has told me about the process, his heat treatment, showed me pictures of his equipment, etc. My Watanabes also hold a better edge than my Toyama (but again this could be due to spread).

I also don’t get why Watanabe would make up stories about a fake relationship when clearly they can easily be debunked.

For me, the question is, why would I trust Maksims (or even Toyamas) word against Watanabes word?
This thread started as a knife buy consultation and when a lot of comments leaned towards one knife maker the seller of the competition steps in and slanders the competition with heavy allegations. I just think you have to be able to back something up with proof or at least provide more background when making allegations of this calibre. But maybe that’s just me since no one else seems to be bothered by this.

Again, I’m not saying that you are lying, Maksim but as someone said “things on the internet stay forever” so you have to back something like this up.


----------



## nonoyes

nonoyes said:


> Interesting discussion. Isn't it demand and demands from the West that revitalized the industry in the first place?
> 
> So production ability of even top makers outstrips demand for high-end endorsed knives so they sell excess production capability to "lower" brands?
> 
> Seems fair and I think Jon has handled this well, trying to protect this business model which enables craft blades in the first place, and also protecting his own position and profit margin.
> 
> But I don't know how you stop people from being curious and looking for deals on hand-made knives.
> 
> Yet I appreciate the warnings in regards to misinformation.


I don't know why I capitalized "west".


----------



## bennyprofane

Another thing, Maksim.

Are you saying that Watanabe gets his completely finished knives from Toyama, or just the roughly forged objects and then does his own heat treatment (I have seen his forge) and his own finishing grind because the later would be completely acceptable to me and explain why I prefer his knives.


----------



## Panamapeet

bennyprofane said:


> So what is being said here? That Watanabe is a liar? He has told me personally in an email that he learned from Toyama. He also told me that they make their knives in an almost identical process but there are some differences, for example in their equipment.
> 
> These are strong allegations and I have come to known Watanabe as a very honest and trustworthy person. I have also not had a Japanese knife which I liked better than the ones from Watanabe so reading this is really quite surprising and hard to believe.


To be honest, everyone can tell you personally in an e-mail that they learned from someone; doesn't prove anything though. 

Just for my interest, how have you come to know him as very honest and trustworthy? Did you see him make knives? They are great knives and I like them a lot, but to be honest you are saying a lot but only very little is provides a solid argument for your standpoint 

All in all, I'm very much inclined to believe maksim as he has met the Toyama blacksmith himself (be it with or without a translator), where us mere mortals may have only spoken to Watanabe via email or even met him in person but not have see him make any knives. Not saying there is anything wrong with him selling Toyama's knives (they are great pieces).


----------



## bennyprofane

The point is that these are heavy allegations, and such allegations should only be made with proof, especially if they are against the competition.

And as I’ve said, if Watanabe gets his rough knives from Toyama and makes his own heat treatment and final grind that would be a huge difference, and make much more sense.

It would also explain why I, and others I have talked to, have experienced Watanabes to hold a better edge than Toyamas and also the small differences in geometry (Watanabes tend to be thicker at the back).


----------



## Kozuka

bennyprofane said:


> Actually, my Watanabes are still my favourite Japanese knives and I have tried a lot. Their performance doesn’t change with these infos. I even like them better than Toyamas (but that could have been due to spread). This won’t change.
> 
> But I have been emailing a lot with Watanabe and it’s hard for me to fathom that he doesn’t make the Pro Line (the cheaper ones would be more understandable) since he has told me about the process, his heat treatment, showed me pictures of his equipment, etc. My Watanabes also hold a better edge than my Toyama (but again this could be due to spread).
> 
> I also don’t get why Watanabe would make up stories about a fake relationship when clearly they can easily be debunked.
> 
> For me, the question is, why would I trust Maksims (or even Toyamas) word against Watanabes word?
> This thread started as a knife buy consultation and when a lot of comments leaned towards one knife maker the seller of the competition steps in and slanders the competition with heavy allegations. I just think you have to be able to back something up with proof or at least provide more background when making allegations of this calibre. But maybe that’s just me since no one else seems to be bothered by this.
> 
> Again, I’m not saying that you are lying, Maksim but as someone said “things on the internet stay forever” so you have to back something like this up.



Exactly my experience with Shinichi. E-Mailing with him about my Semi-Custom Pro Santoku was smooth and he was always honest and upfront about everything. I asked him to thin it a lot and he said he wouldn't feel comfortable but he can thin it a bit and make it as thin as he thinks makes sense while still keeping the "soul" as he said of the knife. I thought that was very Japanese of him (read honest). So I had a good feeling and went through with it.

About a year later and it's my most used knife. I love how it cuts and handles. Edge retention after sticking a 36° micro on it is superb. Geometry is fun and supports the flow of chopping things. All in all a really great knife. Especially for that price.


----------



## maxim

bennyprofane said:


> Exactly what I was thinking. I’m guessing Maksim doesn’t speak Japanese and he only speaks a little English. Toyama probably doesn’t speak any English so there must have been a translator (I’m guessing). There is a lot of room for things to be lost in translation. Why would Watanabe make these stories up? If he wants to make stories up, he could have chosen a more famous blacksmith than Toyama. So maybe, Maksim, you misunderstood a few things but maybe not.
> I just think that these allegations are very serious, they are against a blacksmith who makes knives which always compete with the ones you are selling and I think there should be more proof or at least some background of how exactly you came to know this.



Again i try to explain stuff that Toyma maker do or not do, I will never say anything publicly unless i am certain, You really dont need a translator to know this, if you go to Any knife store in Japan and ask who make Watanabe you get same answer it dose not come only from one soars but many and over many years now, you can fins Toyama knives in many stores in Japan, Watanabe on the other hand, i never seen one. 
I really don't see this as competitor stuff as i started only to correct wrong info, because of my competitor status it makes it very awkward and hard to comment stuff like that and tell everything in details, but i feel like wrong info should get corrected. As i also get tons of email about it.


----------



## SatoShin

I do not know about this exact maker, but there is another commonly know problem like this in Japan. Mizuno Tanrenjo in Sakai. In rest of the world and even inside Japan, many think they are making knives. But in Sakai, it is common knowledge that they do not make anything. But they built fake workshop to make people think they are blacksmith, and news comes to film them. They say they are making their own knives, but the actual blacksmiths and sharpeners are well known craftsmen in Sakai. I was amazed to know how far this company is going to make people believe this lie. Maybe this is similar problem? There are many dishonest business in Japan.


----------



## bennyprofane

Maksim, again, are you saying that Toyama makes the complete knives or does he provide rough knives and Watanabe finishes them. Are you saying that Watanabe doesn't do anything? Then why are there some differences in geometry (and perhaps heat treatment)?


----------



## swarth

I'd got with TF )


----------



## JBroida

delete... already responded to this earlier and just forgot... super tired right now


----------



## nutmeg

Good...

I visited Shinichi Watanabe last week and believe it or not: I saw a knife factory!
What a surprise, isn‘t it?
























upload images


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## JBroida

Hanmak17 said:


> What are they angry about? Not to sound insensitive but if the industry is that "shady" (not generally but in certain segments), why would the honest craftsman be angry at the consumer looking for honest information. "Buyer beware" is a global paradigm. Consumers seeking the best and most accurate information would seem to be in alignment with the honest craftsman objectives.


People are angry that despite asking wholesalers/retailers/customers not to share what they consider to be private information, people share this anyways, and do so in very public manners. The sharing of trade secrets does not always work well for the craftsmen's objectives, and can often cause serious relationship issues between them and the people they rely on for a living here. Also, many people are angry about the amount of misinformation being posted. The other day, I had a conversation with a knife person here in Sakai who was commenting on how he saw someone say a knife was mizuhonyaki that he knew to be abura honyaki, knives that were being sold as white #1 but were white #2 or #3, knives that were said to be a certain blacksmith, but were not, knives that were said to be by a certain sharpener but were not. But he was afraid to correct people online for fear of the tensions it would cause between his company and the companies here that are selling things like this. I was encouraging him to speak up, but I doubt he will.


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## Panamapeet

bennyprofane said:


> The point is that these are heavy allegations, and such allegations should only be made with proof, especially if they are against the competition.
> 
> And as I’ve said, if Watanabe gets his rough knives from Toyama and makes his own heat treatment and final grind that would be a huge difference, and make much more sense.
> 
> It would also explain why I, and others I have talked to, have experienced Watanabes to hold a better edge than Toyamas and also the small differences in geometry (Watanabes tend to be thicker at the back).


OK so you don't want to back up your statements? lol


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## JBroida

nonoyes said:


> Interesting discussion. Isn't it demand and demands from the west that revitalized the industry in the first place?
> 
> So production ability of even top makers outstrips demand for high-end endorsed knives so they sell excess production capability to "lower" brands?
> 
> Seems fair and I think Jon has handled this well, trying to protect this business model which enables craft blades in the first place, and also protecting his own position and profit margin.
> 
> But I don't know how you stop people from being curious and looking for deals on hand-made knives.
> 
> Yet I appreciate the warnings in regards to misinformation.


yes... it was indeed demand from the west that has helped bring things back to a degree. However, people are responding to this increased demand in the same way they did previously when demand within Japan was high, and this is causing the same kinds of struggles that caused a downturn of the industry in areas like sakai, but on a larger and more severe scale.


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## nutmeg

About his relation to Toyama: Watanabe told me that Toyamma was one of his masters.
But Toyama is a very common name in Japan so we‘re maybe mixing things.


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## JBroida

tgfencer said:


> If its not asking you to break any confidences or reveal secrets, could you tell us what exactly the western demands are that are threatening the industry? I'm not sure I can fully see the situation that is benefiting consumers but destroying the Japanese industry, though I don't doubt its there. The livelihood of others is important and I for one would like to understand so as to be more informed in the future.
> 
> And thanks again, Jon, for stepping in and reminding us gently that we don't always know what we are talking about. This forum can be a rather insular place and misinformation breeds quickly.



I think they are many things that are easy to see... people asking for specific craftsmen from companies that dont normally deal with them (or searching for companies that say they will do what the customer is asking but end up being shady), people wanting to know who makes what for whom (which causes great internal strife in places like sakai for example), people taking advantage of japan's cultural tendency to be adverse to saying no to requests, and much more. But even more than that, miscommunications and misunderstandings are causing problems in the way people try to buy things, which has actually led to more dishonesty, where people here feel like its easier to just let people believe what they want instead of trying to correct them and having to deal with an argument all of the time. There are even issues with how people approach demands with steel types and grind types... for example, a maker might recommend a certain steel from them as their best work, but if it isnt white #1 or blue #1 or blue super, the demand is low, so they end up making more of these things that they dont feel as good about because they will sell. Or, today, I had a talk with a craftsman who gets requests from customers to have blades be specific in terms of thickness down to the .01 mm and he just doesnt understand why orders like this keep coming. Part of it is that people dont truly understand the knifemaking process here, and part of it is that they are using companies to order from who shamelessly make demands like this and pressure the craftsmen in very strong ways to achieve these unrealistic results. There is so much more, but its late here and I'm really tired.


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## tgfencer

Thank you, Jon. I appreciate your candor and your _extreme_ levels of patience with all these questions from us. I realize your position as a middleman must probably be unenviable and at times, very awkward. Your continued willingness to educate the consumers of this forum is laudable and sets you apart from other vendors here and elsewhere on the internet, in my opinion. I, at least, am grateful that you stick around these parts and continue to contribute.


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## maxim

JBroida said:


> The other day, I had a conversation with a knife person here in Sakai who was commenting on how he saw someone say a knife was mizuhonyaki that he knew to be abura honyaki, knives that were being sold as white #1 but were white #2 or #3, knives that were said to be a certain blacksmith, but were not, knives that were said to be by a certain sharpener but were not. But he was afraid to correct people online for fear of the tensions it would cause between his company and the companies here that are selling things like this. I was encouraging him to speak up, but I doubt he will.


I have dealt with that in Natural stone business for some time, always  Never thought it will come over to knives, but got my shock this year in Japan.


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## Hanmak17

tgfencer said:


> Thank you, Jon. I appreciate your candor and your _extreme_ levels of patience with all these questions from us. I realize your position as a middleman must probably be unenviable and at times, very awkward. Your continued willingness to educate the consumers of this forum is laudable and sets you apart from other vendors here and elsewhere on the internet, in my opinion. I, at least, am grateful that you stick around these parts and continue to contribute.


+1


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## FoRdLaz

bennyprofane said:


> The point is that these are heavy allegations, and such allegations should only be made with proof, especially if they are against the competition.
> 
> And as I’ve said, if Watanabe gets his rough knives from Toyama and makes his own heat treatment and final grind that would be a huge difference, and make much more sense.
> 
> It would also explain why I, and others I have talked to, have experienced Watanabes to hold a better edge than Toyamas and also the small differences in geometry (Watanabes tend to be thicker at the back).




What makes you think that your email exchanges with Sinichi hold more water than Maksim’s personal interactions with Toyama? How do you even know that it was Sin himself that was answering to you?
Maksim isn’t making any allegations he’s just stating it as he’s heard it from the man Toyama himself. 
And as far as the knives go - do you seriously think that Toyama is not capable of doing a different grind, heat treat etc. for his other clients who then rebrand his knives and sell them on under their own brand? 
And at the of the day - what difference does it make? You enjoy the knives - keep using them and buy the brand that you prefer most.


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## bennyprofane

Edit : Benny, turn it down. If this can't be a civil discussion it won't be a discussion at all. Spipit - this applies to you as well. 

Don't want to hear "but he said......."

Don't want to argue.

Play nice.


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## Jkts

There are different possibilities here.

The first could be that shinichi is a young master smith who learned from Toyama, that they have a cooperative agreement, that Toyama made statements thinking they were confidential, and there is a misunderstanding here. 

The second could be that shinichi is using a business model using the family business name and sourcing some or all of his knives from Toyama and other smiths, and Toyama made some statements probably thinking they would be held in confidence.

Japanese business arrangements are complex and I’d guess that both Toyama and Watanabe do not want all their business out there. Whatever the arrangement, it was beneficial to both parties.

I don’t think this situation gets figured out unless the two parties make a convincing statement - and I don’t think either will want to. This is embarrassing enough.

The knives I’ve received from shinichi have always been well finished and to the specs I requested. The style is similar and quality high so I would assume they are made by the same master or group, not simply outsourced. Even though the knives are great, a part of me still wants to know who had a part in making it, because that makes it more special to me.

We in the West have a romantic notion of ancient tradition and a master smith crafting an artisan tool just for us. In Japan, these are businesses - while in Japan sword makers are revered, (and some sword makers became knife makers), traditional knife makers were usually small businesses cranking out kitchen tools. There is a mismatch between what we demand and the industry there. Do we really need knives of this quality and this many?

It would pain me if my knives weren’t made by shinichi, but I also have no reason to doubt maksim. I question the wisdom of maksim divulging this because there is a bigger context to this, and it isn’t helpful to Toyama either.

Absent a definitive statement from the principal parties, I think the true test will be in time as maksim suggested earlier. When Toyama retires, will there be a drop off in production or quality for Watanabe? I hope not.

I think damage is done here although not finished, and probably to all parties.


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## Ruso

I wanted to say thank you to Jon and Maxim for sharing thier wisdom and information with us. Much appreciated!


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## Wdestate

lol at this. people outsource stuff all the time in so many different fields why this seems so bad to some of you when it comes to knives i dont understand.. far to much dissecting everything, i can easily see why makers in japan are probably pissed off. If its a good knife buy it, who cares what label its sold under.


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## FoRdLaz

Ruso said:


> I wanted to say thank you to Jon and Maxim for sharing thier wisdom and information with us. Much appreciated!



Agreed. 

Instead of opening a can of worms about who makes what and for whom just thank the guys for their openness and move on. 

If you like Watanabes buy them and enjoy them for what they are. Same thing with Toyamas. 

I don’t know why people are making a big deal of this. It is common knowledge that in the Japanese knife industry various blacksmiths do not only make for themselves. Even Shigefusa make the same knives rebranded and sold in more than 1 Japanese retailer. 

And it goes without saying that these guys want their business plans/secrets kept quiet. 

And furthermore I really doubt that Maksim is such a huge Watanabe competitor, or that Watanabe loses huge business to Maksim. He has no reason to badmouth anybody and I don’t see him as doing that anyway. 

So for the Watanabe fanboys keep buying your Watanabes and pose your questions to Watanabe and then believe what you will.


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## FoRdLaz

bennyprofane said:


> And why would Toyama make a better heat treat for someone else but not for himself?



And unless you’re a metallurgist how do you know that Watanabe’s heat treat is better than Toyamas?


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## Corradobrit1

I think it comes down to provenance. These are not mass produced, machine made tools. People pay these high prices to have something that they feel has a connection to the artisan whose name is etched on to the blade. Maybe naive in todays consumer culture but I'm sure you can appreciate this from a purchasers perspective. If you buy an expensive whisky or wine you expect what is in the bottle to correspond to whats on the label. These requirements are rooted in law and unfortunately only legislation will clarify this in the knife making industry.


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## maxim

FoRdLaz said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Instead of opening a can of worms about who makes what and for whom just thank the guys for their openness and move on.
> 
> If you like Watanabes buy them and enjoy them for what they are. Same thing with Toyamas.
> 
> I don’t know why people are making a big deal of this. It is common knowledge that in the Japanese knife industry various blacksmiths do not only make for themselves. Even Shigefusa make the same knives rebranded and sold in more than 1 Japanese retailer.
> 
> And it goes without saying that these guys want their business plans/secrets kept quiet.
> 
> And furthermore I really doubt that Maksim is such a huge Watanabe competitor, or that Watanabe loses huge business to Maksim. He has no reason to badmouth anybody and I don’t see him as doing that anyway.
> 
> So for the Watanabe fanboys keep buying your Watanabes and pose your questions to Watanabe and then believe what you will.



Thank you exactly my point, Watanabe sells fine knives ! And it is not about bashing some knives
I got promision to say that both from Toyama and other vendors and thats why i speak up.
I just say what i hear from different whole-sellers smiths, shops costumers in Sanjo Japan, it is not info just from me it is very common knowledge about it in japan general 
And when someone say that Toyama learned one or have been learned even from older generation then my info on website is just plane lie and wrong ! So it is not me that came with heavy accusations from start


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## Barmoley

Corradobrit1 said:


> I think it comes down to provenance. These are not mass produced, machine made tools. People pay these high prices to have something that they feel has a connection to the artisan whose name is etched on to the blade. Maybe naive in todays consumer culture but I'm sure you can appreciate this from a purchasers perspective. If you buy an expensive whisky or wine you expect what is in the bottle to correspond to whats on the label. These requirements are rooted in law and unfortunately only legislation will clarify this in the knife making industry.




+1. I think this is the root of the issues. High end knives are luxury, collector items, as such people pay premium for certain names/makers. For this case it is important to know if the Kato, etc a customer is paying for is actually made by the maker one expects. No one would be happy knowing that they spent big bucks on the same knife they could pay a lot less for under a different name.

On the other hand if one is buying a knife based on performance or reputation of performance, then as long as the seller guarantees that performance then it doesn't matter who ultimately made it as long as performance is as expected.

Take TF for instance. Many would be OK paying more if rough TF blanks would be sent to someone to finish, so that you where guaranteed to get good grinds, etc every time you bought a TF in addition to the heat treat that TFs are famous for.


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## FoRdLaz

So far as I’m aware the Toyamas actually sell for more than the Watanabes. So if you’re buying a Wat that’s actually a Toyama you’re scoring!


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## labor of love

What we do know: Toyama makes some knives for watanabe.
What we don’t know: does Toyama make all watanabes? are all the the specs exactly the same? Same heat treats? Same exact grind? Same level of finish?
Again and again and again people to seem to be jumping to conclusions about one piece of information without knowing the full situation. We will never know the full situation either.
I’ve handled Atleast 7 wat/Toyamas at this point. I still prefer for the most part watanabe branded knives. It’s not relevant to me what amount of work watanabe puts into the watanabe brand himself. It’s not relevant if Toyama does these things himself. At the end of the day this “who does what” discussion isn’t going to change how I evaluate knives. What impacts my evaluation is the end result-how does any knife perform in my hand.
A better way going forward I think is for us is to examine knives as representative of a brand.
The best analogy I can think of at the moment is when you go to a restaurant and have a wonderful meal. It should be understood that the standards of the restaurant are what made that meal possible. Ofcourse there’s talented sauté cooks like myself ....but ultimately it’s the standards and vision of the restaurant that made your meal possible.
So by the same token it is the brand that should matter.


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## Corradobrit1

Barmoley said:


> Take TF for instance. Many would be OK paying more if rough TF blanks would be sent to someone to finish, so that you where guaranteed to get good grinds, etc every time you bought a TF in addition to the heat treat that TFs are famous for.



Now thats something I'd sign up for. Good consistent grinds and better Yo handle implementation. Combined with the TF heat treatment we'd have a real world beater in our hands. From reading multiple dissatisfied owners, it seems the issue is always the grind or blade spec inconsistency.


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## Corradobrit1

labor of love said:


> So by the token it is the brand that should matter.



In an ideal world yes. But in real life the 'weakest link' can often have the biggest impact on the final product.


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## labor of love

I agree Corra, but in this case the weakest link leads to incomplete information, disinformation, unsubstantiated rumors, and half truths that jeapordize the business of craftsmanship that we actually appreciate.


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## daveb

Corradobrit1 said:


> I think it comes down to provenance.....



This is true for a large part of the high end knife market IMHO. We frequently see knives on bst that "bought 3 years ago..." and "never used, bnib". This part of the market segment wants their Wats made by Wat and their Toyoma's made by Toyama. It's the perceived value of the knife, not the functional utility that's important. No more than they want a beautiful Monet that's been painted by Fred.

It's a thing. It's not my thing but it's a valid thing that's well represented on here.


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## HRC_64

labor of love said:


> I agree Corra, but in this case the weakest link leads to incomplete information, disinformation, unsubstantiated rumors, and half truths that jeapordize the business of craftsmanship that we actually appreciate.



The math doesn't add up on this story, which is a problem.


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## chinacats

As for me, if Fred's paintings look like Monet's then I'd take the Fred for $50


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## daveb

chinacats said:


> As for me, if Fred's paintings look like Monet's then I'd take the Fred for $50



I know where you can get one by Dave for $20. Stayed mostly inside the lines....


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## nutmeg

in order to stop propaging the rumor:
Does anyone know anything solid about the subject?
Rumor stopped...


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## HRC_64

> Buy on the rumor, sell on the news
> 
> -- Wall Street proverb




Fortunately or unfortunately, 
rumors move markets.


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## Mute-on

...


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## nonoyes

I would think that part of the appeal of owning a knife named after a master craftsman (whose age maybe is given in the knife description) would be owning a knife MADE by that master craftsman?


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## Alexec

Just call either one and get to know the truth, toyama - watanabe thing.
Ill stick with TF whatsoever.


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## XooMG

They're all made by my factory in China. Only the sheaths are made in Japan.

Have a fantastic day.


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## Corradobrit1

'


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## Corradobrit1

XooMG said:


> They're all made by my factory in China. Only the sheaths are made in Japan.
> 
> Have a fantastic day.



In that case put me down for a Yo Shig Kitaeji 210.


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## Barmoley

XooMG said:


> They're all made by my factory in China. Only the sheaths are made in Japan.
> 
> Have a fantastic day.


Could I have a 240 shig Kato workhorse in tamahagane?


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## valgard

Glad I put my order with MooXG before the news broke, waitlist and prices are going to hike.


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## XooMG

Corradobrit1 said:


> In that case put me down for a Yo Shig Kitaeji 210.





Barmoley said:


> Could I have a 240 shig Kato workhorse in tamahagane?


Afraid we had to discontinue shigefusa after discovering excessive lead in the cladding. The brand might be picked up by Shibazi. Have an awesome day.


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## labor of love

HRC_64 said:


> The math doesn't add up on this story, which is a problem.


Provide a substantial rebuttal and I will defend my position.
But to show me a photo of a toilet and allude to hypothetical math? Not worth my time.
Have fun relating Wall Street to jknife world. One of the best acrobatic feats imaginable.


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## Midsummer

labor of love said:


> Provide a substantial rebuttal and I will defend my position.
> But to show me a photo of a toilet and allude to hypothetical math? Not worth my time.
> Have fun relating Wall Street to jknife world. One of the best acrobatic feats imaginable.



That is no ordinary urinal. That readymade urinal was signed (R Mutt) and then presented by Marcel Duchamp to be exhibited at an art exposition as an example of his art. It was labeled "The Fountain". "The Fountain" created debate because all Duchamp did was reposition a common pre cast porcelain urinal, sign it and call it a "work of art". 

For me, it questions what the limits are for "art" or creation of art. The question that has evolved before us does make us ask ourselves about the limits of the art of the knife. It questions, among other things, at what point is the work attributable to an artist or maker.

So, while intriguing and provoking, "The Fountain" is not a work of art I would wish to own or display. While clever, I would have difficulty attributing greatness to Duchamp based solely on this work.


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## labor of love

Midsummer said:


> That is no ordinary urinal. That readymade urinal was signed (R Mutt) and then presented by Marcel Duchamp to be exhibited at an art exposition as an example of his art. It was labeled "The Fountain". "The Fountain" created debate because all Duchamp did was reposition a common pre cast porcelain urinal, sign it and call it a "work of art".
> 
> For me, it questions what the limits are for "art" or creation of art. The question that has evolved before us does make us ask ourselves about the limits of the art of the knife. It questions, among other things, at what point is the work attributable to an artist or maker.
> 
> So, while intriguing and provoking, "The Fountain" is not a work of art I would wish to own or display. While clever, I would have difficulty attributing greatness to Duchamp based solely on this work.


What’s actually in debate...right here and right now in the real world isn’t artistic in nature at all. By all means purchase a sharpened spoon for $700 and see if it sparks debate as to what a real knife is or isn’t. 
What is up for debate is the buying practices and motivations of the west, if those practices are even rational and better yet if those practices can sustain a system of craftsmanship in Japan that is desirable.


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## Midsummer

Craft = Art


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## labor of love

Toilet = thought provoking art


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## JBroida

labor of love said:


> What’s actually in debate...right here and right now in the real world isn’t artistic in nature at all. By all means purchase a sharpened spoon for $700 and see if it sparks debate as to what a real knife is or isn’t.
> What is up for debate is the buying practices and motivations of the west, if those practices are even rational and better yet if those practices can sustain a system of craftsmanship in Japan that is desirable.



It was my understanding that this began as a discussion focused on dishonesty, gullibility, and trust. Did I miss something along the way? The points I added were more like parallel discussions rather than focused on specifically Toyama and Watanabe for example.


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## labor of love

Sure, I can answer that. My critique is that there’s a section of the market here in the states that pushes to know the identities of makers that would otherwise prefer to work anonymously. Yes, there’s two sides of the coin and there’s stuff that also happens in Japan with distribution that can be dishonest too(I wouldn’t know enough about this to comment on it).
In the case of watanabe and Toyama I guess this was common knowledge in Japan but never mentioned on this forum until a few days ago.
I suppose you spoke of dishonesty with regards to some practices in Japan but I’ve witnessed plenty of dishonesty among businesses here. 
I’ve been told plenty of things by vendors firsthand that could harm a maker, but most customers likely aren’t as hush hush as I am about this stuff as I am.
The equation I see at the moment is this:
Market demands + business complies = craftsman suffers


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## nutmeg

Lot of misinformation, propaganda and confusion here.

For example, two months ago Robin Dalman and I helped Shinichi Watanabe to order 50kg of 125sc steel from Germany in order to run some tests for new knives.
I saw the steel at his place. Nobody would order this amount of steel and do nothing with it.

I also saw some self made kintaro ame, many blades, tools, machines or even fresh finished tamahagane blades in its huge factory.

Also have a look at his knives in the SPECIAL serie, nothing to do with Toyama knives.

Many people lie in the business but Shinichi is a very straight guy.


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## Gjackson98

Lol Now it all make sense why people don’t want to share with us who made what. Can you imaging how much explanation Watanabe had to do if they just flat out tell you they purchased a small(or large) batch of knives from Toyama to support production? I personally don’t think it’s not that big of deal long as Watanabe holds the same spec requirements, but what do I know lol, I am just a newby.


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## Gjackson98

Gjackson98 said:


> Lol Now it all make sense why people don’t want to share with us who made what. Can you imaging how much explanation Watanabe had to do if they just flat out tell you they purchased a small(or large) batch of knives from Toyama to support production? I personally don’t think it’s not that big of deal long as Watanabe holds the same spec requirements, but what do I know lol, I am just a newby.



*Personally I don’t think it’s that big of deal


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## tripleq

JBroida said:


> It was my understanding that this began as a discussion focused on dishonesty, gullibility, and trust. Did I miss something along the way? The points I added were more like parallel discussions rather than focused on specifically Toyama and Watanabe for example.



In our society no one forces us to buy anything. We have the option to determine whether a product is worth the asking price. We can buy it, move onto something else or buy nothing at all. I have been buying from Watanabe for so long I still have some of Sin’s practice pieces. He always delivers fine products that are well worth the money. At least for me. I would still buy his knives if he did nothing more than chisel his mark into them. At least I’m still buying from a guy who has a hand in the production vs. a vendor who makes absolutely nothing. 

As for Japan, the industry and the rest, relationships like senpai/kohai or shitei/onshi can be very difficult to understand to a non-Japanese. Are things being said because there is dishonesty involved or is someone just trying to be loyal? You might not see the difference but it likely crystal clear to them. There are a lot of things people don’t understand about industries that are specific to our own culture, forget about someone else’s but what does it matter? Doesn’t almost everyone drive his or her car every day without concern for how every component works or how they made it into the vehicle?

If you want to have a conversation about dishonesty, gullibility and trust I don’t see a problem with that but what about looking inward? Unlike you I’m a guy who actually lived in Japan for an extended period and I actually speak Japanese without the need to rely on someone else for translation in any context. That said I’ve been able to deal directly with several of your suppliers and have purchased products that you have claimed to be ‘exclusive’ to JKI. Don’t have any illusions that any of your suppliers are pillars of honesty and integrity and everyone else’s aren’t. I am quite familiar with some of your suppliers. I understand what their local retail is and in some cases what their wholesale is. You deal with one supplier who, by their own admission have a history of making farm equipment and are relative newcomers to knife making, only jumping on-board to increase cash flow. The knives are very, very rough but you put quite the polish on them in terms of promotion. It is also no secret that you have lobbied both ownership and moderators on this and other forums to supress information that may allow the general public to contact your suppliers directly. I’m not faulting you for any of this. It is business but I don’t see why someone else’s proprietary secrets seems to irk you so much when you are so keenly aware that you have your own to protect – and I have just scratched the surface.

It is my opinion that you have done nothing in this thread but blow a lot of smoke to raise non-specific suspicion and concerns in the minds of the community to promote yourself as one (or one of a few) trusted sources because you know all the ‘secrets’. I remember way, way back when you first appeared on the forums your posts were nothing but generous and you had and sincere interest in learning and teaching with full transparency. The posts concerning your Japan trips were filled with interesting information and anecdotes but years later you only take the time to appear out of your sub-forum to cast shadows in the direction of other makers that you don’t sell. Maybe you’ve been spending too much time listening to the sycophants on the forums or maybe there is something else at play but I no longer see the seemingly egoless guy who used to make these forums fun places to visit. I don’t speak for anyone but myself but I keep touch via email and PM with a lot of old timers going back to KF and Fred’s and I can say quite confidently that I’m not the only one who thinks similarly. This kind of schoolyard chatter does nothing to increase your desirability as a vendor. No matter your goal is this thread you’ve revealed more about yourself than you have about anyone else. I’ve had very long relationships with some of the vendors on these forums. They are guys who do good work, mind their own business and never, ever say a negative word about another vendor. That’s how relationships and trust are built. 

So that’s how I feel about it Jon. I’m sorry if my writing is long-winded and/or indelicate but English is a 3rd language for me and I have a particularly tough time with the written form. I’m not sure I’ve expressed myself correctly but I’ve done my best.


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## JBroida

tripleq said:


> In our society no one forces us to buy anything. We have the option to determine whether a product is worth the asking price. We can buy it, move onto something else or buy nothing at all. I have been buying from Watanabe for so long I still have some of Sin’s practice pieces. He always delivers fine products that are well worth the money. At least for me. I would still buy his knives if he did nothing more than chisel his mark into them. At least I’m still buying from a guy who has a hand in the production vs. a vendor who makes absolutely nothing.
> 
> As for Japan, the industry and the rest, relationships like senpai/kohai or shitei/onshi can be very difficult to understand to a non-Japanese. Are things being said because there is dishonesty involved or is someone just trying to be loyal? You might not see the difference but it likely crystal clear to them. There are a lot of things people don’t understand about industries that are specific to our own culture, forget about someone else’s but what does it matter? Doesn’t almost everyone drive his or her car every day without concern for how every component works or how they made it into the vehicle?
> 
> If you want to have a conversation about dishonesty, gullibility and trust I don’t see a problem with that but what about looking inward? Unlike you I’m a guy who actually lived in Japan for an extended period and I actually speak Japanese without the need to rely on someone else for translation in any context. That said I’ve been able to deal directly with several of your suppliers and have purchased products that you have claimed to be ‘exclusive’ to JKI. Don’t have any illusions that any of your suppliers are pillars of honesty and integrity and everyone else’s aren’t. I am quite familiar with some of your suppliers. I understand what their local retail is and in some cases what their wholesale is. You deal with one supplier who, by their own admission have a history of making farm equipment and are relative newcomers to knife making, only jumping on-board to increase cash flow. The knives are very, very rough but you put quite the polish on them in terms of promotion. It is also no secret that you have lobbied both ownership and moderators on this and other forums to supress information that may allow the general public to contact your suppliers directly. I’m not faulting you for any of this. It is business but I don’t see why someone else’s proprietary secrets seems to irk you so much when you are so keenly aware that you have your own to protect – and I have just scratched the surface.
> 
> It is my opinion that you have done nothing in this thread but blow a lot of smoke to raise non-specific suspicion and concerns in the minds of the community to promote yourself as one (or one of a few) trusted sources because you know all the ‘secrets’. I remember way, way back when you first appeared on the forums your posts were nothing but generous and you had and sincere interest in learning and teaching with full transparency. The posts concerning your Japan trips were filled with interesting information and anecdotes but years later you only take the time to appear out of your sub-forum to cast shadows in the direction of other makers that you don’t sell. Maybe you’ve been spending too much time listening to the sycophants on the forums or maybe there is something else at play but I no longer see the seemingly egoless guy who used to make these forums fun places to visit. I don’t speak for anyone but myself but I keep touch via email and PM with a lot of old timers going back to KF and Fred’s and I can say quite confidently that I’m not the only one who thinks similarly. This kind of schoolyard chatter does nothing to increase your desirability as a vendor. No matter your goal is this thread you’ve revealed more about yourself than you have about anyone else. I’ve had very long relationships with some of the vendors on these forums. They are guys who do good work, mind their own business and never, ever say a negative word about another vendor. That’s how relationships and trust are built.
> 
> So that’s how I feel about it Jon. I’m sorry if my writing is long-winded and/or indelicate but English is a 3rd language for me and I have a particularly tough time with the written form. I’m not sure I’ve expressed myself correctly but I’ve done my best.



For what its worth, I speak japanese, have lived here (and worked here), dont have to rely on people for translation, and I think you have a pretty clear and serious misunderstanding of who I am and how I do things. I'm really sorry you feel that way. You seem to think i've done a lot of backroom dealing to suppress information or control dialouges, but I dont think that is an accurate view at all. My participation in this thread was a fucntion of the many discussions I've had (in Japanese nonetheless) with various craftmen and companies across Japan this year and in previous years about the direction of the industry and issues that people are often seeing. I dont think that I'm the only person in the world doing things with integrity... if you ask people that shop with me, I often recommend them to my competitors when they have thigs that fit better. Again, I'm sorry you feel so angry with me, but I think a lot of this stems from rather serious misunderstandings.


----------



## Xenif

I just wanted to recap the first 100 posts, so people dont have to re-read from the top again. 
#2 - Suggest to look at Toyama (henceforth known as T) as alternative to Watanabe (henceforth known as W)
# 12 - OP asked about similarities/difference, mention search yield possible master/pupil relationship between T and W.
#22 - W are not T, both quality
#30 - Someone read on another forum that T makes W
#31-32 - Not true
#49 - another T and W connection mentioned
#96 - Maxim wanted to clear up T did not learn from older W, nor has he taught any W clan members. T has sold knives to W, W has ordered from other smiths as well.
#99 - W told poster he learned from a Toyama, but since its a common name it could be diffrent from T.
#100 - Golden Quote Momment: What we write on the internet stays forever.

From that point on its basically a whole new discussion that has has to be read ....

Now back to The Days Of Our Lives ... I mean back to our regular scheduled programming!


----------



## nonoyes

This has been pointed out before but Watanabe openly sells thread snips made by a Toyama:

http://watanabeblade.com/english/special/nigiribasami.htm



> Watanabe family is a blade smith tribe. Ken Toyama is our relationship. His father was my great grand father's apprentice. Then there were more than one hundred nigiri basami blade smiths in Sanjo. But Ken Toyama was the only person and retired in May, 2015. Then he was 73 years old. These snips are his final stock.



Great respect in those words. 

Maxim said:



> Thats why i wanted clarify and make it clear that Toyama Noborikoi Maker have never been teacher by Watanabe or have been taught by him.



So "Toyama Noborikoi Maker" is probably not Ken Toyama. Lot of dust kicked up here if it's really that simple.


----------



## stoneray

JBroida said:


> For what its worth, I speak japanese, have lived here (and worked here), dont have to rely on people for translation, and I think you have a pretty clear and serious misunderstanding of who I am and how I do things. I'm really sorry you feel that way. You seem to think i've done a lot of backroom dealing to suppress information or control dialouges, but I dont think that is an accurate view at all. My participation in this thread was a fucntion of the many discussions I've had (in Japanese nonetheless) with various craftmen and companies across Japan this year and in previous years about the direction of the industry and issues that people are often seeing. I dont think that I'm the only person in the world doing things with integrity... if you ask people that shop with me, I often recommend them to my competitors when they have thigs that fit better. Again, I'm sorry you feel so angry with me, but I think a lot of this stems from rather serious misunderstandings.



I don't know, Jon. When Maxim made accusations against Watanabe without delivering any proof you supported him by writing how shady things are in general.

As many posts show in this thread, the two of you are treated like half gods and you're words are gospel. With power comes great responsibility.

But what it comes down to is slandering of the competition. You both complain how shady and deceitful things are in Japan but you don't question your own sources. How do you know that you were fed truthful information. Maybe Toyama receives knives from Watanabe. (I've actually heard this rumour.) 

Who knows what the truth is?

But unless you have solid truth which you can present, you should keep it to yourself. Otherwise it just reflects bad on you. 

That's my two cents.


----------



## nutmeg

I asked Shinichi about the snips when we were in the Blacksmith school in Sanjo.
This is another Toyama.


----------



## JBroida

stoneray said:


> I don't know, Jon. When Maxim made accusations against Watanabe without delivering any proof you supported him by writing how shady things are in general.
> 
> As many posts show in this thread, the two of you are treated like half gods and you're words are gospel. With power comes great responsibility.
> 
> But what it comes down to is slandering of the competition. You both complain how shady and deceitful things are in Japan but you don't question your own sources. How do you know that you were fed truthful information. Maybe Toyama receives knives from Watanabe. (I've actually heard this rumour.)
> 
> Who knows what the truth is?
> 
> But unless you have solid truth which you can present, you should keep it to yourself. Otherwise it just reflects bad on you.
> 
> That's my two cents.


thats a totally fair statement... part of the reason i chimed in was that the last few days I've been having conversations with craftsmen in sakai and encouraging them to watch what is happening online (forums, reddit, instagram, etc.) and in that time i had to hear comments about things like "why are they saying this is mizuhonyaki... i made that and it was abura" and "why are they saying I made that blade? I didnt." and "this customer bought from me at wholesale... why is he selling it so cheap? its even less than what we sell them for retail in japan." and so many more like that. The last two years especially, I see things like this. Even the sharpener I most often train with here in sakai (who ask me to say i am their soto-deshi... or like a kind of apprentice who doesnt actually live/work there all of the time) showed me his instagam messages filled with messages from customers who came to me to ask for things and then just went direct to him to ask for the same thing for less money. He either tells them to talk to me or responds in japanese but leaves it at that... but these things have been rather frustrating. So when I saw a conversation where people who have little to no firsthand experience in this industry and little to no language ability in japanese commenting about things like they were absolute truth, it got to me. For sure, my reaction could have been a bit better, but its been wearing down on me for a long time now.


----------



## panda

i could give two sh*ts about who did the work on any of my knives, i only care about end result. if it's a great knife then it's a great knife, the history of its creation has no bearing on its worth to me. it's not to say i dismiss it entirely, for example if a smith has a great pedigree, then it's fair to assume that person has the potential to put out a great product.


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## Grunt173

panda said:


> i could give two sh*ts about who did the work on any of my knives, i only care about end result. if it's a great knife then it's a great knife, the history of its creation has no bearing on its worth to me. it's not to say i dismiss it entirely, for example if a smith has a great pedigree, then it's fair to assume that person has the potential to put out a great product.


Amen! +1 Now maybe we can see a thread about the good stuff. This one is getting old.


----------



## tgfencer

Gentlemen, I seriously doubt anybody here considers Maxim or Jon as infallible, demi-gods of the knife world. If their interactions with the community at large seem to have changed in the last year or several years, then yes, perhaps we must question why, but we must also consider how we, the community, have changed. This relationship works both ways. The internet is a poor place to judge one's intentions and it is easy to get caught up in misunderstandings or interpretations and I, for one, will not be forming opinions based on this thread.


----------



## Midsummer

tgfencer said:


> Gentlemen, I seriously doubt anybody here considers Maxim or Jon as infallible, demi-gods of the knife world. If their interactions with the community at large seem to have changed in the last year or several years, then yes, perhaps we must question why, but we must also consider how we, the community, have changed. This relationship works both ways. The internet is a poor place to judge one's intentions and it is easy to get caught up in misunderstandings or interpretations and I, for one, will not be forming opinions based on this thread.



And I will reserve the right to do so.


----------



## tgfencer

Midsummer said:


> And I will reserve the right to do so.



As is your right! I have no problem with those who do and my last comment was not meant to disparage those who have. I may yet form one myself, but so far there has been a lack of convincing truths one way or the other for my tastes.


----------



## tripleq

JBroida said:


> For what its worth, I speak japanese, have lived here (and worked here), dont have to rely on people for translation, and I think you have a pretty clear and serious misunderstanding of who I am and how I do things. I'm really sorry you feel that way. You seem to think i've done a lot of backroom dealing to suppress information or control dialouges, but I dont think that is an accurate view at all. My participation in this thread was a fucntion of the many discussions I've had (in Japanese nonetheless) with various craftmen and companies across Japan this year and in previous years about the direction of the industry and issues that people are often seeing. I dont think that I'm the only person in the world doing things with integrity... if you ask people that shop with me, I often recommend them to my competitors when they have thigs that fit better. Again, I'm sorry you feel so angry with me, but I think a lot of this stems from rather serious misunderstandings.



That's OK, Jon. I've said my piece and you have said yours. We'll leave it at that but there is one thing I would like to address. I am not angry with you. If that is your read it is only because of my inability to express myself in English. I suppose one could make the case that the tone of the written word is difficult enough to interpret at the best of times as well. What I really am is disappointed. Way back in the day we were a much smaller community than we are now and back then I never imagined that I would see such things from vendors. Some of you have gone from humble thanks for the support of the forum to outright entitlement and arrogance. There have even been statements made in threads (both inclusive and excluding this one) that I would expect more from a troll than a vendor. It is very unappealing and one of the reasons many people frequent these forums less. Everyone loses. I used to support you and JNS and I have a lot of stuff around here from both of you but the fact is that retailers often forget who is the master and who is the servant. As I said in my previous post we have the privilege of buying from whoever we want and there are too many humble, hard working vendors who haven't grown to like themselves too much to ignore. Best of luck to you.


----------



## nonoyes

JBroida said:


> For sure, my reaction could have been a bit better, but its been wearing down on me for a long time now.



You have to do your business but I think you guys brought some of it on yourselves by marketing things like hand-made by 6th generation master blacksmith, or whatever, then going to greater and greater lengths to offer apparent, but not real, exclusives, or to hide the name of the smith but ask us to trust you that it's one of the greats. This obviously obfuscates things for customers.

You can call who actually makes a knife a trade secret but it's surely a weird one.

Are you aware of any retailers or manufacturers falsely attributing a knife to a particular blacksmith? Because that would be bad.

But all of this other stuff seems to be about keeping up everyone's margins (and is maybe not so much about the decay of humanity).

I'm leaning TF due to the thinner tip. (I'm sorry, was that off-topic?)


----------



## tgfencer

nonoyes said:


> I'm leaning TF due to the thinner tip. (I'm sorry, was that off-topic?)



Whoa whoa buddy, start your own thread why don’t you?


----------



## dwalker

Long story short, Wats and Toyamas have lost their value. Every owner should immediately put them on BST for a fraction of their purchase price. I'll see you over there....


----------



## Midsummer

SatoShin said:


> I do not know about this exact maker, but there is another commonly know problem like this in Japan. Mizuno Tanrenjo in Sakai. In rest of the world and even inside Japan, many think they are making knives. But in Sakai, it is common knowledge that they do not make anything. But they built fake workshop to make people think they are blacksmith, and news comes to film them. They say they are making their own knives, but the actual blacksmiths and sharpeners are well known craftsmen in Sakai. I was amazed to know how far this company is going to make people believe this lie. Maybe this is similar problem? There are many dishonest business in Japan.





dwalker said:


> Long story short, Wats and Toyamas have lost their value. Every owner should immediately put them on BST for a fraction of their purchase price. I'll see you over there....



Well if what is said above is true then we should see the price of Mizuno's falling as well


----------



## dwalker

Midsummer said:


> Well if what is said above is true then we should see the price of Mizuno's falling as well


I'll be looking for those as well.


----------



## parbaked

This thread makes me want to email Shinichi buy another knife...


----------



## Ochazuke

I feel a need to clarify one thing as a half-Japanese sushi chef (specifically as a bilingual, bicultural, professional user of the the tools everybody is writing of). 

JBroida has a point that I don’t think everybody else *really* understands. The way Japanese people do business is different in ways that are both subtle and fundamentally different. I wish I could point out specifics in a way that could make you all understand, but some things you just need a lived experience of. And any one specific I give is just a facet that could easily be warped and twisted by interpretation.

Please understand that cultural differences count for a lot (and not just language differences). A lot of honest, transparent, hard-working makers AND vendors rely on many intricate and delicate relationships. What I think many of you take as obfuscation is often (though of course, not always) just respect for the people who dedicate their lives to providing great tools to people who can use and appreciate them.

I can say this for sure: the obsessive insistence by many westerners on getting certain “names” at the “best” prices is both tearing down some of these delicate relationships and making it harder for some craftsmen to make a living.


----------



## nonoyes

Yes, I understand that the situation is extremely dire and extraordinarily vague.


----------



## Ryndunk

I'm glad I buy knives as tools.


panda said:


> i could give two sh*ts about who did the work on any of my knives, i only care about end result. if it's a great knife then it's a great knife, the history of its creation has no bearing on its worth to me. it's not to say i dismiss it entirely, for example if a smith has a great pedigree, then it's fair to assume that person has the potential to put out a great product.


----------



## Midsummer

Ochazuke said:


> I can say this for sure: the obsessive insistence by many westerners on getting certain “names” at the “best” prices is both tearing down some of these delicate relationships and making it harder for some craftsmen to make a living.



I am trying to figure out what the logical consequences implied by your statement.
Everything I come up with looks like foolishness.

You present a moral delima. You say that by efficiently using our resources 'trying to buy the best "names" with the minimum amount of expenditure ("best" prices) that we are "making it harder for some craftsmen to make a living".

Have you considered that a lot more craftsmen would lose their means of making a living if the capitalists no longer had a desire for their product.

Capitalism and trade is very simple really. No moral transgressions are implicit in it application.

What is your solution?


----------



## bahamaroot

Some of you are wound just a few turns to much.....


----------



## Ochazuke

Prefacing this with the comment that having a black and white understanding of things will make you completely unable to understand my previous comment and coming example.

Here's a real life analogy in American sushi that illustrates some of the points (but bear with me b/c it's not a direct analogy so may not quite line up exactly -- nevertheless the point is in here). As a sushi chef I bought tuna from a certain seller who sells to many restaurants in the area. There are many types of tuna used in sushi, most commonly kihada but also mebachi and hon-maguro. I used to buy hon-maguro for $2000 whereas my competitors who bought from the same tuna seller would often buy the same amount of mebachi for $700 and sell it as hon-maguro. What I believe most westerners would do is expose the dishonest sushi chefs because of the point you make above. What I did was simply express my concern to my vendor. Because while I knew that maybe not every problem would be solved, I also knew that if my tuna dealer didn't sell to every person he suspected of being dishonest that he would no longer be able to sell fish. I also understood that my tuna vendor provided me with consistent quality that other sushi chefs weren't always able to get *because* I was honest. And it's not at the expense of the consumer. It's because 95% of the consumers don't know or care about the differences. The ones that do, stuck with me. And it's also because I know that if I have to choose between the relationship I have with my trusted fish vendor or one pushy customer who thinks they know what they're talking about, I choose my fish vendor every time. BECAUSE I care about my customers.

Hopefully this clears things up for you Midsummer. As a side note I stopped buying and selling hon-maguro for sustainability reasons, just a general FYI.


----------



## Midsummer

*In a spirit of trying to get along, I will say that this thread has bothered me and, sadly, intrigued me. Hurtful claims have been made that appear to be motivated toward harming others. The vendors who entered the thread (people to whom we have looked for direction) have muddied the waters. This thread has become distasteful and an example of how we should not comport ourselves.*


----------



## panda

i miss my custom spec watanabe, til this day the best cutter i've owned rivaled only by mizuno honyaki.


----------



## labor of love

panda said:


> i miss my custom spec watanabe, til this day the best cutter i've owned rivaled only by mizuno honyaki.


What’s actually funny about this is that people are ready to spill the beans about how illegitimate wat and mizuno are. Because of behind the scenes involment from other smiths.


----------



## pete84

Valid points are being raised and argued here, and that is good and healthy in the name of discussion and debate. There is no way to know what is absolutely true and what is not, due to the reality that information available to each individual here and to this community as a group is limited. Each person is entitled to believe what they want to believe and argue what they think to be true.

At the end of the day, I agree with the guys who say "if I like the knife and it works well for me, I am satisfied and the details don't bother me."

The sad part of this thread has to be the ad-hominem attacks. Prefacing sh!t-talk about *someone *with "my English is not-so-good" and various forms of "this is not meant to be sh!t-talk" doesn't change what it is, and is a cowardly way to try and publicly kick someone's integrity and character in the balls, all the while pretending one is innocent of acting like an ass.

To legitimize the verbal poo-poo being slung, we get supplied a laundry list of qualifications and experience with J-knives or Japan in general (i.e. I am a native Japanese speaker who lived there so I "get it" unlike you/I'm so old school that I have Watanabe practice knives/I'm still Facebook friends with people from Knife Forums/I know and deal directly with makers so I get the BEST deals/I'm so damn deep in the J-knife world that everybody else is a wiener in comparison)

In the world I'm from, if you don't like someone, just be straight and call them a name. Its cleaner and less to read.


----------



## YG420

Well said Pete! Really sad to see Jon's integrity questioned like that, the dude is Mr. Integrity in my book. Without guys like Jon and Max this community wouldnt be where it is today.


----------



## SatoShin

Midsummer said:


> Well if what is said above is true then we should see the price of Mizuno's falling as well


I do not think the pricing will go down... they use very well know and respected craftsmen. For example, you can see the mizuno kokuin (stamp) at a blacksmiths workshop, so it is easy to see that the forging happens there. I saw this on my last visit to sakai. I was trying to make a point that some businesses will do whatever they can to make sales. This does not mean that the quality of the blade is not good... just that they are not honest about who makes it.


----------



## lemeneid

SatoShin said:


> I do not think the pricing will go down... they use very well know and respected craftsmen. For example, you can see the mizuno kokuin (stamp) at a blacksmiths workshop, so it is easy to see that the forging happens there. I saw this on my last visit to sakai. I was trying to make a point that some businesses will do whatever they can to make sales. This does not mean that the quality of the blade is not good... just that they are not honest about who makes it.


Well thats the thing you see. Most people here don't have the chance to visit Japan nor have the chance to talk to a Japanese blacksmith like you yourself do. So more often than not we have to rely on knowledge on forums or people like Jon or Maxim to be trustworthy. And vendors like Jon have to rely on the chain of trust that their exporters, dealers, agents and blacksmiths they are dealing with are reliable people who provide them with truthful information. Fact is, unless you know the blacksmith directly, in Japan you have to rely on the chain of agents and exporters who may or may not provide you with accurate information.

I've never bought a knife from Jon or Maxim before but I'm assuming the premium you guys pay on your knives is because they do try their best to accurately sell you a knife that they have trust in the blacksmith and supply chain and most people here I see have been satisfied with their wares. So unless there is any verifiable truth that they may not be selling what is advertised, mudslinging isn't helping the community here.

Anyway back on topic, I'll probably be waiting on a TF 240 Maboroshi when I head to Japan on one of my monthly trips. Unless someone wants to tell me TF might be lying to its customers too


----------



## ThinMan

Remember the children's story of the shoemaker and the elves? The shoemaker cannot finish all his work. At night elves come and finish it for him, completing pairs of shoes.

The complaints about provenance here sound a bit like someone who bought a pair of shoes from the shoemaker and then is pissed because he finds out they were made by the elves not the shoemaker.


----------



## ian

ThinMan said:


> Remember the children's story of the shoemaker and the elves? The shoemaker cannot finish all his work. At night elves come and finish it for him, completing pairs of shoes.
> 
> The complaints about provenance here sound a bit like someone who bought a pair of shoes from the shoemaker and then is pissed because he finds out they were made by the elves not the shoemaker.



I’ve never trusted elves. Suspicious creatures.

Edit: At least, when they aren’t working for a reputable maker like Santa.


----------



## playero

Ochazuke said:


> Prefacing this with the comment that having a black and white understanding of things will make you completely unable to understand my previous comment and coming example.
> 
> Here's a real life analogy in American sushi that illustrates some of the points (but bear with me b/c it's not a direct analogy so may not quite line up exactly -- nevertheless the point is in here). As a sushi chef I bought tuna from a certain seller who sells to many restaurants in the area. There are many types of tuna used in sushi, most commonly kihada but also mebachi and hon-maguro. I used to buy hon-maguro for $2000 whereas my competitors who bought from the same tuna seller would often buy the same amount of mebachi for $700 and sell it as hon-maguro. What I believe most westerners would do is expose the dishonest sushi chefs because of the point you make above. What I did was simply express my concern to my vendor. Because while I knew that maybe not every problem would be solved, I also knew that if my tuna dealer didn't sell to every person he suspected of being dishonest that he would no longer be able to sell fish. I also understood that my tuna vendor provided me with consistent quality that other sushi chefs weren't always able to get *because* I was honest. And it's not at the expense of the consumer. It's because 95% of the consumers don't know or care about the differences. The ones that do, stuck with me. And it's also because I know that if I have to choose between the relationship I have with my trusted fish vendor or one pushy customer who thinks they know what they're talking about, I choose my fish vendor every time. BECAUSE I care about my customers.
> 
> Hopefully this clears things up for you Midsummer. As a side note I stopped buying and selling hon-maguro for sustainability reasons, just a general FYI.



Why not buy both and teach the customer


----------



## playero

Check Takeshi Saji


----------



## bruce8088

Xenif said:


> I just wanted to recap the first 100 posts, so people dont have to re-read from the top again.
> #2 - Suggest to look at Toyama (henceforth known as T) as alternative to Watanabe (henceforth known as W)
> # 12 - OP asked about similarities/difference, mention search yield possible master/pupil relationship between T and W.
> #22 - W are not T, both quality
> #30 - Someone read on another forum that T makes W
> #31-32 - Not true
> #49 - another T and W connection mentioned
> #96 - Maxim wanted to clear up T did not learn from older W, nor has he taught any W clan members. T has sold knives to W, W has ordered from other smiths as well.
> #99 - W told poster he learned from a Toyama, but since its a common name it could be diffrent from T.
> #100 - Golden Quote Momment: What we write on the internet stays forever.
> 
> From that point on its basically a whole new discussion that has has to be read ....
> 
> Now back to The Days Of Our Lives ... I mean back to our regular scheduled programming!



I recall someone show me a screencap of email with Takeshi @ aframestokyo and he confirmed Watanabe does not make most of his knives (perhaps he only makes the ku pro line).


----------



## Sharpchef

I know a guy in Japan that means to know a brother of his uncle, and this man`s grandfather was an engineer from hitachi that got secrets from german Krupp family and they are talking about forging simple carbon steel with even simpler non carbon steel and they call them san mai..... And the really secret is they sell this stuff to all of the blacksmiths in japan.... 

This is the really Myth blow  gents ....  .

Greets secret S....


----------



## Sharpchef

And bevore you mention it is another company involved... called Takefu.... Psss.....


----------



## bennyprofane

I ask Maxim repeatedly in this thread if Watanabe (according to him) bought blanks which he worked on or finished knives. No response. 

Nutmeg visited Watanabe last week in his workshop, saw him working on his knives, posted pictures of him working on his knives. Again, no one responds. 

Selective awareness...


----------



## daveb

SatoShin said:


> I do not think the pricing will go down... they use very well know and respected craftsmen. For example, you can see the mizuno kokuin (stamp) at a blacksmiths workshop, so it is easy to see that the forging happens there. I saw this on my last visit to sakai. I was trying to make a point that some businesses will do whatever they can to make sales. This does not mean that the quality of the blade is not good... just that they are not honest about who makes it.



Jeez Louise. If you're going to quote and rnd reply to something at least read it in context. Especially when it's from a tangent started by XooMG - his sense of humor is the stuff of legend.


----------



## Gregmega

pete84 said:


> Valid points are being raised and argued here, and that is good and healthy in the name of discussion and debate. There is no way to know what is absolutely true and what is not, due to the reality that information available to each individual here and to this community as a group is limited. Each person is entitled to believe what they want to believe and argue what they think to be true.
> 
> At the end of the day, I agree with the guys who say "if I like the knife and it works well for me, I am satisfied and the details don't bother me."
> 
> The sad part of this thread has to be the ad-hominem attacks. Prefacing sh!t-talk about *someone *with "my English is not-so-good" and various forms of "this is not meant to be sh!t-talk" doesn't change what it is, and is a cowardly way to try and publicly kick someone's integrity and character in the balls, all the while pretending one is innocent of acting like an ass.
> 
> To legitimize the verbal poo-poo being slung, we get supplied a laundry list of qualifications and experience with J-knives or Japan in general (i.e. I am a native Japanese speaker who lived there so I "get it" unlike you/I'm so old school that I have Watanabe practice knives/I'm still Facebook friends with people from Knife Forums/I know and deal directly with makers so I get the BEST deals/I'm so damn deep in the J-knife world that everybody else is a wiener in comparison)
> 
> In the world I'm from, if you don't like someone, just be straight and call them a name. Its cleaner and less to read.



Thanks Pete. 

I didn’t see at all how Jon or Maxim were kicking up dust on the subject, but English is my first language, so advantage me. Clearly there’s way more to this meaty convo, but those who are so inclined to be angry because they can’t have their own truths be validated need to step out of the echo-sphere and take a few breaths. Your beliefs do not make facts, ever, no matter how loud you yell at other people. 

Sorry to see Jon & Maxim be slandered like this in an open forum when clearly they were being honest and trying to help. It’s pretty lame to see ‘the elders’ come down from mount perfection with the sanctimonious diatribe on decorum & ‘the old ways’ when nearly every post is mudslinging. It’s hypocritical. 

As someone said earlier- I sure am glad I buy these knives for tools. I’m far less angry.


----------



## HRC_64

maxim said:


> On Toyama i go to Japan this April and try to get cool video Out about Toyamas knives, he really deserves as much attention as Kato and Shig people just don't know him yet





maxim said:


> ...[A]ctually i seen them in Kyoto and asked seller if it was Watanabe, he told me no and that Mr. Shuji Toyama from Sanjo made them. Price seemed very good then i just ordered them as they are just bit extra thiner


----------



## aaamax

Honey, I made this knife! "Really? How wonderful." Why thank you, I bought the kit on eBay and put it together. "Oh, you are so creative, by the way, we are going to have a baby!" Really? how wonderful! "yes, and you are not the father."

Cultural differences my ass.

If you call yourself a blacksmith/knifemaker and you are selling someone else's wares as your own without disclosure, you are deceiving your customer at the very least and I call it fraud.
To claim that a Blacksmith is perpetrating such a practice is equally extreme and damn well better have some facts to back it up. Not come on here with some veiled and cloudy accusations. If someone is going to levy such a heavy blow, say it straight up. Then let the chips fall as the may.
My 2c
In the spirit of full disclosure, One of my favorite blades is a 13 year old custom Wat 280 in Blue 2 that I bought directly from SIn. She is the beast. I don't really care who made it because it was made by a skilled hand.
However, I don't like smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Gregmega

aaamax said:


> Honey, I made this knife! "Really? How wonderful." Why thank you, I bought the kit on eBay and put it together. "Oh, you are so creative, by the way, we are going to have a baby!" Really? how wonderful! "yes, and you are not the father."
> 
> Cultural differences my ass.
> 
> If you call yourself a blacksmith/knifemaker and you are selling someone else's wares as your own without disclosure, you are deceiving your customer at the very least and I call it fraud.
> To claim that a Blacksmith is perpetrating such a practice is equally extreme and damn well better have some facts to back it up. Not come on here with some veiled and cloudy accusations. If someone is going to levy such a heavy blow, say it straight up. Then let the chips fall as the may.
> My 2c
> In the spirit of full disclosure, One of my favorite blades is a 13 year old custom Wat 280 in Blue 2 that I bought directly from SIn. She is the beast. I don't really care who made it because it was made by a skilled hand.
> However, I don't like smoke and mirrors.



The phone you just typed that on has 60 subcontractors that build parts for it, yet you don’t see the company that built the most important piece, the processing chip asking for their name stamped below the Apple, nor did you ask who made this part. Same thing with the car in your driveway and the belt in your jeans. This happens in every aspect of life, not just knives. It’s ridiculous to call it fraud. Gucci literally does not make one belt in their collection, let alone design it, yet they sell it with the heirloom story attached even though it was made in DTLA. Private contractors (so to speak) are used in all facets of nearly all businesses. 

In this case it’s a centuries old way of doing business, maybe more nuanced than some people’s fragility can handle. It’s not anything to do with the cultural argument as much as semantic nitpicking, they call it one thing, we call it another. 

At what point do people get so enraged that they need to know in no uncertain terms who made what? At what point does having a child and knowing who the smith was become level in importance? And at what point do you distrust these fine products since you can’t find out who made it, and not trust that the ‘maker’ stands behind it, be it one smith or the other?


----------



## chinacats

All I know is that I want another Wat. Don't really care who makes it as long as it cuts like a beast.

As to those showing up just to slander Jon why not address it privately by pm if you have a problem with how he conducts business? I always appreciate what Jon and Maxim have to say even when I disagree...but that's just me.


----------



## Barmoley

Not to argue the philosophical question and not taking either side, but we need to stop using cars, phones, etc as examples of using products without knowing who made what. It is true that most use them fine and don’t know, but enthusiasts do. Car guys know who made which part and care about it. So do electronics enthusiasts, they take phones apart and look at each microchip and which company made them. Not knowing doesn’t prevent one from using and enjoying any of it, but it is wrong to blame people for wanting to know if it is their thing. For the ones that don’t care that’s fine, I use kaeru gyuto and have no idea who made it and it works great. I don’t care because when I bought it I didn’t know who made it and still bought. I think I would be upset if I found out that the catcheside I am waiting for is not made by Will, simply because he told me he is the one making it. Its performance would not change, but I would feel like I was duped, most likely...

It used to be don’t worry about the steel, it’s the bladesmith. Now it is, don’t worry about the bladesmith, it is the brand or performance. Well, you have to care about something to be on these forums, otherwise what are we even discussing around here.....

I agree with chinacats there was absolutely no need to question Jon’s integrity in a public forum, that was done in bad taste.


----------



## dwalker

This is a difficult subject. I have ordered Watanabe knives and have had email correspondence from Sin saying "....I will make your knife...". I can't help but to be a little put off if that were not true. At the same time, if I see a good deal on one, I will snatch it up if I have the cash on hand. I like the way they cut.

I was part of a thread a long time ago that had to do with the mystery undisclosed craftsmen responsible for making some of the knives Jon and others sell. At the time, my position was that I wasn't interested in purchasing a knife from an unknown smith and finisher. I wanted to know what I'm paying for, especially for some of the higher priced knives. It's difficult to lay out the cash for something where not only are the bonifides withheld but there is an implied "trust me, it's worth it or I wouldn't ask so high a price". 

I know a guy that sells a 2 part epoxy paint. He buys it in 5 gallon buckets from a nation wide manufacturer, reduces it by close to 50%, puts it in pint jars, named it something fancy, and sells it for about an 800% profit. He claims to be the manufacturer. Is this dishonest? Maybe, maybe not. If you found out you could get the same product at a fraction of the price, I bet you would feel at least something negative about it. 

It's been a while since I held the opinion about buying a knife from a withheld craftsmen and have purchased a couple in the meantime. I really like them both and one turned out to be a Mazaki sold under a different name at a 20% discount. Feels like a win to me. These were $200ish knives. I stil have a reluctance to spend more than that on a tool that I dont know its origin. 

There is opportunity for shady vendors to take advantage of their customers by misrepresenting the products origin. It seems to me that at least Jon and Maxim tell you that they can't tell you where some of their products come from. This is better than them lying about their origins but forces the customer to trust that they are not getting taken advantage of. I always give the benifit of the doubt unless I have reason not to. I have completed many dozens of transactions on the BST on this forum and others. I have friend transactions through PP on all but a couple. I know I risk loosing my money, but I choosen to live my life not being fearful that everyone is out to get me. Maybe I loose once and a while (haven't yet), but the net gain is worth it to me. 

My apologies for the ramblings and unorganized thoughts. Hopefully this contributes to this discussion. Hopefully the beer hasn't got in the way of a point that otherwise makes sense, at least in my head.


----------



## ian

I think another issue with the phone/car analogy that for some people, a larger part of the value of the knife is dependent on intangibles and provenance. It's true that brand matters somewhat for the value of phones/cars---although Apple products and Samsung products, for instance, are so different that it is hard to attribute the Apple premiums solely to brand cachet rather than to actual differences in experience. But high end knives seem slightly more toward art on the art/tool spectrum, at least to some buyers.

If you're buying as a collector then provenance will matter to you. I don't think feeling this way about knives is `illegitimate' in any way, even if I don't share the attachment. 

But anyway, many people have already said versions of the above two paragraphs in this thread.

A question: I read earlier in the thread that cultural differences were somehow a factor in the preference of some makers to remain anonymous, etc... Is this really a Japanese thing, or are there American (say, given my location) smiths who also make high end knives as an oem? Is it just that there has historically been more of a market for such knives in Japan, so the industry is developed enough that we can notice all this going on? I appreciated some of the pinpoint examples of cultural differences (e.g. the 2000/800 for tuna), but this whole discussion doesn't seem to be so much about culture as about different expectations between the sometimes spec obsessed knife knuts on this forum (myself not excluded) and smiths who have a more realistic/industrial/let's-actually-make-a-living point of view. (I loved the example about requests for knives of specified thickness.)

Re: knives sold by vendors without naming the craftsperson. This bothered me a little at first, but not anymore---I think(?) that's the case for the Gengetsu, which will probably be my next purchase. For if you're not a collector, why do you care? Presumably the reason for a user to want to know the smith is to ensure quality, but if the vendor has a good enough reputation, that's the same thing, no? Especially if the product has a stellar reputation itself...


----------



## nutmeg

*hey guys.. please remember this thread began with similarities between Watanabe‘s and Toyama‘s knives.
From 8 pages we couldn‘t get any proof or testmonial saying they have a business together...and I like facts even more than philosophy when it comes to knives.*


----------



## nutmeg

Btw.. who are you calling when you need a japanese CUSTOM knife?


----------



## Gregmega

nutmeg said:


> *hey guys.. please remember this thread began with similarities between Watanabe‘s and Toyama‘s knives.
> From 8 pages we couldn‘t get any proof or testmonial saying they have a business together...and I like facts even more than philosophy when it comes to knives.*



Actually it was between TF and Wat but who’s counting now

*it derailed straight to Toyama after 2 posts, no sign of TF*


----------



## Anton

tgfencer said:


> Gentlemen, I seriously doubt anybody here considers Maxim or Jon as infallible, demi-gods of the knife world. If their interactions with the community at large seem to have changed in the last year or several years, then yes, perhaps we must question why, but we must also consider how we, the community, have changed. This relationship works both ways. The internet is a poor place to judge one's intentions and it is easy to get caught up in misunderstandings or interpretations and I, for one, will not be forming opinions based on this thread.



I'm rolling with this

and sticking with/by Jon and JKI


----------



## SatoShin

daveb said:


> Jeez Louise. If you're going to quote and rnd reply to something at least read it in context. Especially when it's from a tangent started by XooMG - his sense of humor is the stuff of legend.


I'm sorry. English is not my first language and I don't always understand humor. I think its the hardest thing to understand in english.


----------



## panda

do you go to a restaurant because you know of a certain chef that runs the place interests you, do you think he actually cooked your meal?? and would you pay double if he really did?


----------



## labor of love

panda said:


> do you go to a restaurant because you know of a certain chef that runs the place interests you, do you think he actually cooked your meal?? and would you pay double if he really did?


What’s funny is that this reminds me of some Marco Pierre White folklore I’ve heard in the past. Customers would come in to one of his establishments and request HE cook their meal personally. And he would. But he’d also charge like I dunno 4-5x what the prices were on the menu. That’s what he felt his personal time was worth.


----------



## Midsummer

panda said:


> do you go to a restaurant because you know of a certain chef that runs the place interests you, do you think he actually cooked your meal?? and would you pay double if he really did?



When I was delivering babies it was kinda interesting when VIP's came in to be treated. They would want the head of the department of Anesthesia to place their labor epidural. But that Chairperson had not done an epidural for some time. It was a task generally related to the nurse anesthetist. The Nurse anesthetist put them in all day, every day. Also the regular floor nurses were replaced by their supervisors. The supervisors who had spent more time negotiating contracts in the last year than doing labor and delivery. But they were the big cheeses. It aways seemed like the VIP's got poorer care.


----------



## Grunt173

Holy cow,this thread has really gone astray.Now we are delivering babies.


----------



## Anton

Disneyland


----------



## Grunt173

Anton said:


> Disneyland


Lol,did you mean Dizzyland?


----------



## daddy yo yo

Back on topic: TF or Watanabe? Watanabe, not even considering TF for the fraction of a second.

Thread can be closed, I answered the question!


----------



## Anton

daddy yo yo said:


> Back on topic: TF or Watanabe? Watanabe, not even considering TF for the fraction of a second.
> 
> Thread can be closed, I answered the question!



Eyes were bleeding 
Thanks !


----------



## Grunt173

daddy yo yo said:


> Back on topic: TF or Watanabe? Watanabe, not even considering TF for the fraction of a second.
> 
> Thread can be closed, I answered the question!


Thank you.


----------



## Corradobrit1

daddy yo yo said:


> Back on topic: TF or Watanabe? Watanabe, not even considering TF for the fraction of a second.
> 
> Thread can be closed, I answered the question!



You're missing out. TF provenance is unimpeachable.


----------



## Ruso

daddy yo yo said:


> Back on topic: TF or Watanabe? Watanabe, not even considering TF for the fraction of a second.
> 
> Thread can be closed, I answered the question!



TF of course. Wats not even near.

Now we can close it.


----------



## Barmoley

Corradobrit1 said:


> You're missing out. TF provenance is unimpeachable.


Yeah, I would say Wat over TF, but Labor prefers TF and he tried a million knives, so I don't know.....


----------



## parbaked

The correct answer is both and a Takeda!


----------



## labor of love

parbaked said:


> The correct answer is both and a Takeda!


This actually is the correct answer.


----------



## labor of love

Barmoley said:


> Yeah, I would say Wat over TF, but Labor prefers TF and he tried a million knives, so I don't know.....


Labor is an idiot don’t listen to him.


----------



## labor of love

Seriously though, here’s some points that I’ll make:
-watanabe has a flatter profile in my experience from heel to tip. TF no meito has plenty of flat spot but also more curvature towards the tip
-TF no meito has a nicer tip IMO
-both steels are really hard and get really sharp and have great edge retention 
-wats vary in weight but usually 20-30 grams heavier than TF (wa handle Atleast), But you can get custom weights and specs from either maker so this could potentially not matter.
-I like stock TF wa handle more than stock wat handle d shape. But you can upgrade to keyaki installation with watanabe. It cost more but it’s worth it IMO
-probably more consistency with watanabe over TF with regards to grind quality


----------



## Anton

TF 
Wat 
Two different knives in so many ways, steel, balance, weight, and Variance from knife to knife within, then impacted by your own style and sharpening ability 

Almost need to own both for a while and treat them as two


----------



## panda

i kind of want a no meito 210 as my beater line knife. would replace OG yoshikane that i love the steel but blade is too thin for my tastes.


----------



## Gregmega

Only way to get a TF is to handpick one from him in Japan. It’s a minefield of consistency if you order online. Nearly everyone I’ve spoken to needed some work, one way or the other. Except inzite, of course. Cause he’s sponsored. TFTF


----------



## Xenif

#260 just want to say we all love knives, this why we are here, thanks for making me love knives, regardless of any petty arguments I still love them the same.

Im looking at TF Nashiji or no meito Nakiri vs Wat Pro KU either 165 180, anybody used both and would comment ? And yes like any good kkfer I'd probably get both at some point, but which to try first?


----------



## labor of love

Wat KU Nakiri is a thing of legend among Nakiri people. Start with the standard.


----------



## HRC_64

Anton said:


> TF
> Wat
> Two different knives in so many ways, steel, balance, weight, and Variance from knife to knife within, then impacted by your own style and sharpening ability



+1


----------



## Marek07

Xenif said:


> #260 just want to say we all love knives, this why we are here, thanks for making me love knives, regardless of any petty arguments I still love them the same.
> 
> Im looking at TF Nashiji or no meito Nakiri vs Wat Pro KU either 165 180, anybody used both and would comment ? And yes like any good kkfer I'd probably get both at some point, but which to try first?


I've got two of the three you've mentioned - the TF 165 nashiji and the Watanabe pro 180 kurouchi so here's my 2¢. The Wat pro comes highly recommended on KKF and won't disappoint, especially for large amounts of cutting/chopping. I was concerned by the amount of curve towards the tip when I first got it but it seems to work just fine. Damn fine knife - regardless of ferrule material chosen.

The TF nashiji (with finger rest - really like the option) was purchased only because I couldn't afford the Maboroshi at the time. It surprised and delighted me. Light, nimble, superb sharpness and a real joy in the kitchen - just flies through smaller produce. At the price, very hard to beat.


----------



## bruce8088

Gregmega said:


> Only way to get a TF is to handpick one from him in Japan. It’s a minefield of consistency if you order online. Nearly everyone I’ve spoken to needed some work, one way or the other. Except inzite, of course. Cause he’s sponsored. TFTF



Indeed hand picked would alleviate all concerns! Who is inzite?

I just got my TF petty back from rehandling and gave it a run on an ohira renge suita - boy it's sharp now!


----------



## valgard

Wat 180 Nakiri is the ultimate Nakiri if you like some weight. Mine is the best cutter I have tried (regardless of Nakiri or gyuto).


----------



## bruce8088

Anton said:


> TF
> Wat
> Two different knives in so many ways, steel, balance, weight, and Variance from knife to knife within, then impacted by your own style and sharpening ability
> 
> Almost need to own both for a while and treat them as two



This is bang on! Watanabe Ku I've heard great things about and TF is TF.


----------



## bahamaroot

labor of love said:


> Labor is an idiot don’t listen to him.


How can you not +1 this....


----------



## Corradobrit1

bruce8088 said:


> IWho is inzite?



The forum TFTFTFTF fanboi


----------



## jacko9

I have the TF 150 Nashiji Petty and the 240 Nashiji Gyuto and both are excellent knives that get wicket sharp quite easily.


----------



## nutmeg

Watanabe petty 150mm is just THE ultimate petty.


----------



## refcast

Having owned a Fujiwara Teruyasu Denka and Maboroshi 270mm wa-gyuto and some others from him, and a Watanabe petty, I can offer my observations from my particular examples.

Watanabe
-My Watanabe came with a slightly concave left hand side about one third up the blade face and slightly convexed right hand side that made cutting precise and enjoyable in repetitive movements.
-My Watanabe felt more consistent in hand which helped me manage my cutting movements and adjusting the force depending on the produce.
-I would get an octagonal handle in the future as I like the facets in helping me rotate the knife.
-I don't know how his grinds are for gyuto, and I've read his kurouchi uses wide bevels and his kasumi uses asymmetry.

Maboroshi
-My Maboroshi's hammer finish, shoulders, and concavity on the wide bevel mean few foods stick, but the non-uniformity can make it feel unweildly in left-right balance.
-My Maboroshi had a shoulder that was thicker on the left side which aided in food separation and helped to prevent wedging by reducing surface area in contact. However, I did not like the slight left-right imbalance, which made the cut feel less predictable.
-My Maboroshi accelerated through the cut due to the aforementioned grind, which unsettled and exhilarated me. However, I would prefer if it were more predictable.
-Upon convexing and thinning the shoulders, my Maboroshi would stop a bit more in thicker items like dense cabbage but feel more predictable. I thought it was an okay trade-off, but I guess it was a more "pure" cutter before.
-In my particular example the behind the edge grind was extremely thin.
-Microbevels or bevels of reasonable toughness are really important for the steel.
-The steel would bite into crusty breads and seeds and nuts and actually cut clean through them. The blade would microchip of course. It could also very slightly bend and I could see the tiniest glints in hard light.
-The hammer finish section was slightly concave near the 1/3 at the heel and became fatter and convexish at the 1/3 nearing the tip. The effect made the knife feel more rigid with tip work and rock chopping.
-I would snug my finger into the finger rest while doing in hand work, which seemed to help a bit, but I think I prefer without it. The finger rest also affects the balance a bit and the choil view can look weird.
-I found I prefer no machi knives because I can lock my fingers around the top and bottom of the neck of the knife, which helps me with in hand work and during the retracting motion in cuts.

Comparison
-I felt Watanabe's steel was more tough and I felt more confident pushing it harder.
-I felt Maboroshi got sharper but the steel would bend. But the knife was ground extremely thin behind the edge, and thinner than the Watanabe by quite a bit.
-The Maboroshi bit into food more readily both due to thinness behind the edge and the steel possibly reaching a finer apex, which is at most my speculation.


If I had to choose between Watanabe and Fujiwara Teruyasu's Maboroshi no Meito for a 240mm, given your criteria of "uncompromising cutting power and performance with good food release", I would probably go with Watanabe.

In terms of cutting power, I would be able to rely on it harder. The Watanabe should be taller, too, which helps a lot with making cutting strokes shorter and a bit more chopping-like. I did like the Maboroshi 270mm more than my Watanabe 150mm, though, but knife size and handle play a role. I also just kept on making the bevel too thin on the Maboroshi because it was a bit addicting. They are different knives. But I currently prefer to use an Ashi Ginga White 2, which I got on a whim and found out I liked because it had a precise feel, and I'm trying Heiji's carbon soon to find steel similar to Fujiwara's but with a more consistent-feeling geometry, although its heavier.


----------



## bennyprofane

So I asked Watanabe about Toyama, this is what he replied:

“Toyama is a popular family name in Sanjo.
I know some Toyama-san.
Noborikoi Toyama-san is Shuji Toyama. I learn from him very much. He is who I respect the most.
Ken Toyama is from Watanabe blade tribe. His father was my great grand father's apprentice.
There were many great craftsmen here. I had many teachers. Iizuka, Hasegawa, Watanabe, Masui, Marushin, Kawamata, Toyama(polishing) and many. Some person already passed away."


----------



## ashy2classy

nutmeg said:


> Watanabe petty 150mm is just THE ultimate petty.



I don't know, my Wat 165 petty is pretty killer.  Some might say it's more like a really small gyuto, but I love the height for board work and a little extra length for comfort.

Wat 225mm gyuto and 165mm petty (just got a 240 to complete the family)


----------



## HRC_64

Nice really like the small gyuto/pretty hybrids anywhere from 165-195.

However, the main issue many people have re: Tip on wat 
is in the 240s, with them being taller and the pro,
Wat petty doesn't have such a big height/tip.

Personally, I think each one needs to be
considered on its own merit,not draw
conclusions from one to the other.

BTW that Wat gyuto above looks awesome 
Nice score !


----------



## Hanmak17

bennyprofane said:


> Selective awareness...


 
Valid point. I suspect this is do to incomplete information and assumptions. 

Regardless of who is making Watanabes blades I have found his metallurgy to be the best of any knife I have had a chance to use to date. This includes the beloved Katos and Shigs everyone seems so fond of. I own several now and still prefer my Wats. 

I should note I have only used his pro line of knives. 

I have not tried a TF or Toyama, I suspect I'll buy a Toyama before to Long as they look like a knife I would enjoy.


----------



## parbaked

That 165mm Wat looks soooo useful...must resit emailing Shinichi...


----------



## jacko9

In addition to my T-F 150Petty and 240Gyuto, I have the Toyama 150Petty that is a much taller knife than the T-F petty (around 32mm tall). I would liken the Toyama Petty to a short Guyto.


----------



## labor of love

maxim said:


> Thats why i wanted clarify and make it clear that Toyama Noborikoi Maker have never been teacher by Watanabe or have been taught by him.
> Why knives is so similar i explained, Watanabe have many orders from Toyama Noborikoi Maker and other blacksmiths in Japan, as i have seen and many in Japan know


I still have a problem with this comment. If watanabe does some outsourcing there really isn’t any reason to bring it up.
All you had to say is that the Toyama brand you carry has never held a teacher/student or whatever relationship with watanabe knives.
Even if “many in Japan” know, you effectively defamed watanabe in the eyes of collector geeks here on the forum.
I hope in hindsight you’ll learn to speak less openly about competition. You wouldn’t want them to do the same to you would you?


----------



## XooMG

labor of love said:


> You wouldn’t want them to do the same to you would you?


I recall Takeda Shosui did just that a while back.


----------



## Wdestate

labor of love said:


> I still have a problem with this comment. If watanabe does some outsourcing there really isn’t any reason to bring it up.
> All you had to say is that the Toyama brand you carry has never held a teacher/student or whatever relationship with watanabe knives.
> Even if “many in Japan” know, you effectively defamed watanabe in the eyes of collector geeks here on the forum.
> I hope in hindsight you’ll learn to speak less openly about competition. You wouldn’t want them to do the same to you would you?


 Personally glad he chose to say something. Facts shouldn’t have to be tip toed around to protect “collector geeks” images of someone


----------



## maxim

labor of love said:


> I still have a problem with this comment. If watanabe does some outsourcing there really isn’t any reason to bring it up.
> All you had to say is that the Toyama brand you carry has never held a teacher/student or whatever relationship with watanabe knives.
> Even if “many in Japan” know, you effectively defamed watanabe in the eyes of collector geeks here on the forum.
> I hope in hindsight you’ll learn to speak less openly about competition. You wouldn’t want them to do the same to you would you?



To be honest i regret now that i commented at all, it is pointless it seems.
But yes i would not mind if it was did same to me, if Shigefusa, Kato sold outsourcing knives to me and i said they only made them i will like to people will tell me that or corrected me if i wrong, specially for collectors sake 



XooMG said:


> I recall Takeda Shosui did just that a while back.



nope, I don't know anything about it, we had only have disagreement about some Maruichi stones thats it, but still i am not super upset about it


----------



## nutmeg

I guess many comments and quotes have been made out of context, we will never know.. Anyway it shows are knife nuts how when it comes to their passion 

Here is a new video from the pictures made during my visit in Watanabe's factory in August:


----------



## swarth

nutmeg said:


> I guess many comments and quotes have been made out of context, we will never know.. Anyway it shows are knife nuts how when it comes to their passion
> 
> Here is a new video from the pictures made during my visit in Watanabe's factory in August:




I don't see anything being _made_ in those slides...


----------



## nonoyes

labor of love said:


> Even if “many in Japan” know, you effectively defamed watanabe in the eyes of collector geeks here on the forum.



I am grateful for this information, not sure it is even remotely like defamation.


----------



## labor of love

maxim said:


> To be honest i regret now that i commented at all, it is pointless it seems.
> But yes i would not mind if it was did same to me, if Shigefusa, Kato sold outsourcing knives to me and i said they only made them i will like to people will tell me that or corrected me if i wrong, specially for collectors sake
> 
> 
> 
> nope, I don't know anything about it, we had only have disagreement about some Maruichi stones thats it, but still i am not super upset about it


Yes, I understand. But even revealing a fact like this can lead to more confusion. Watanabe could still do finish sharpening, grinding work and other things. Or maybe he just buys blanks.
Are you saying watanabe sells knives he himself doesn’t do any work on?
Are we talking like 1% of the stuff he carries is outsourced or most of it?
In this case a shred of facts only leads to speculation here that assumes the worst.


----------



## nutmeg

swarth said:


> I don't see anything being _made_ in those slides...


Made by Shinichi is the meaning of the kanji he engraves on his knives.

Rumors like „he doesn‘t make“, „he doesn’t produce“ etc. are only b*llsh*t.


----------



## swarth

You have proffered this as evidence that he indeed _does _make...but I don't see anything being made.


----------



## nutmeg

swarth said:


> You have proffered this as evidence that he indeed _does _make...but I don't see anything being made.


ok.. actually I‘ve never seen any evidence or even a serious testifying about the fact he DOESN‘T produce so.. I‘m not sure of what we‘re talking about now.
These are just pictures about my visit at Watanabe’s place in Sanjo. I hope many people would discover things by watching it.


----------



## labor of love

maxim said:


> To be honest i regret now that i commented at all, it is pointless it seems.
> But yes i would not mind if it was did same to me, if Shigefusa, Kato sold outsourcing knives to me and i said they only made them i will like to people will tell me that or corrected me if i wrong, specially for collectors sake
> 
> 
> 
> nope, I don't know anything about it, we had only have disagreement about some Maruichi stones thats it, but still i am not super upset about it


I would like to see any written communication that watanabe has ever made that states he makes 100% of his knives himself. With his own two hands.
Yes, he states in emails things like “I will make your knife for you” in the same way a maker like Takeda would say the same thing. I’m not under the belief that these guys are doing all the work. That kinda output would be impossible for a single person. 
But for you to say that he outsources work from other makers without elaborating comes off as disingenuous. Are we talking 5 knives, 500 knives or 5 million knives?


----------



## swarth

labor of love said:


> I would like to see any written communication that watanabe has ever made that states he makes 100% of his knives himself.



Moving the goal posts a bit it it seems.


----------



## RDalman

Just some food for thought:
What is honesty/transparency here. If you want/need to know more I think you should ask the makers/retailers maybe specific questions, before raising big stink online. A knife can be made in many ways. For example, if curious, ask if they laminate all their steel themselves. 

Just because someone in a romantic marketing video is handforging-filing-manual stone sharpening knives, doesnt necessarily mean there are not grinders/powerhammers/buffers as part of the regular production.

A knife doesnt necessarily have to be forged, the steel can "just" be forged in the mill when made, and make just as good knives. The knife shape can be cut/ground/pressed(stamped) and no process excludes use of others. Forged production knives are often stamped for their profile. 

Most japanese KU finish is made chemically I believe, not in forging/hardening..

List could go on... I think it's common many focus on just the end product they sell, and I think there are some confusion about how the knives sold are actually made. It's sad if that leads unhappy customers and good businesses get a bad rep, just because of lack of knowledge/poor communications.


----------



## parbaked

Watanabe Blades is a family business. Shin-ichi has other family members working for him.
The Watanabe website claims their knives are "_original hand forged blades, painstaking crafted by the Watanabe family_".
He implies that he makes the "Special" knives "_I hand forge knives to your custom specifications_".
He doesn't claim to make the Professional or Standard knives all by himself.
The Standard knives says "_we make only the best knives for you and your family_"


----------



## Barmoley

I think this one is causing such an uproar because of lack of information and statements in the past that Shinichi is one of the few people who laminates his own steel and even sells it to other makers in addition to forging his own knives. There have also been a lot of suggestions when comparing his knives to Toyama, to first get Toyama since he will retire soon, unlike Shinichi who is a relatively young guy. I mention all this to illustrate that most people on this forum thought that he fully makes his knives, as in forging, heat treating, etc. So when Maxim said that Watanabe knives are not made by him a lot of people got upset. This doesn't make Watanabe knives bad all of a sudden, they are still the same knives, but one of the implications is that if true, once Toyama retires Watanabe knives will change too. 

I don't think Maxim was trying to do anything, but pass along information he has. After all Watanabe knives that are similar to Toyama are usually cheaper, so what purpose would be served by saying that they are also made by Toyama. Maxim doesn't benefit any from saying this.

Once again nothing changed in the world, but it is understandable why some people are upset, because they feel like they were duped. This is most likely due to misunderstanding, cultural differences and as correctly was pointed out the definition of what exactly it is to make a knife.

I am for more information, it is true that partial information can cause more confusion, but as a customer and a knife/research geek I want to know as much as possible. It is my decision if I still want to buy not knowing details or not knowing anything about the origin of the knife. I don't really care if Watanabe knives are made by someone else, but if this is known I want to know too, so that I can make the best buying decision for me.


----------



## nutmeg

parbaked said:


> Watanabe Blades is a family business. Shin-ichi has other family members working for him.
> The Watanabe website claims their knives are "_original hand forged blades, painstaking crafted by the Watanabe family_".
> He implies that he makes the "Special" knives "_I hand forge knives to your custom specifications_".
> He doesn't claim to make the Professional or Standard knives all by himself.
> The Standard knives says "_we make only the best knives for you and your family_"


His father has been retired for years and only his brother is a bit involved in Watanabe Blade.


----------



## daddy yo yo

Honestly, I don't give a sh*t who actually is/was involved in making my Watanabe knives. They are fantastic knives, no matter who and how many people were involved making them...


----------



## parbaked

Observations from someone who has visited Watanabe:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/visit-with-shinichi-watanabe.33797/


----------



## deleon

daddy yo yo said:


> Honestly, I don't give a sh*t who actually is/was involved in making my Watanabe knives. They are fantastic knives, no matter who and how many people were involved making them...


I have to agree, unless the cost justified it. That would be like asking a single descendant of Winchester to make a new rifle for you completely by themselves ..... could be done sure, but at what cost? Just look at US knife makers who do everything themselves and produce small amounts of product per year. They have to get astronomical prices, if they want to stay in a reasonable price range with a higher volume they can't keep up by themselves.


----------



## Xenif

#299 ... Everyone take out their whetstones ... Take a deep breath .... Lets do some sharpening, take a break, have a drink, pass the peace pipe, eat some bacon ....


----------



## nonoyes

RDalman said:


> What is honesty/transparency here. If you want/need to know more I think you should ask the makers/retailers maybe specific questions, before raising big stink online



Ok, we haven't actually learned anything about Watanabe in particular, but I don't think it's fair to ask novice buyers to inquire whether a knife that is implied to be hand-made by a master bladesmith is really made that way, and to please do so discretely.

Perhaps the problem is in the way these knives have been marketed to the west, idealizing the individual craftsmen and suppressing the re-seller aspect of some businesses. Brands with a famous blacksmith front and center should probably just be open about a) whether or not they also re-brand others' finished blades and b) the role of the master blacksmith in either hand-making the knives or ensuring training of assitants and quality of final product. They may be bemused that we care, but this is how the knives have been sold.

I made a crude assumption when someone said they had information that some Watanabe knives are rebranded oem knives, and the response to this by people who might know was basically, shhhh, we shouldn't talk about that. That's not proof that he re-labels, but it's weird. It has the feel of conspiracy and has left me less romantic about the whole master blacksmith thing and more cautious.

By almost all accounts just about every Wat that Wat sells is a fantastic knife, which is an amazing feat for a manufacturer + reseller. But I did not know about the reseller aspect of his business. Someone like me new to these knives does not at first realize the volumes of knives being sold or the implausibility of them being hand-made by the very people whose names are on them.



Barmoley said:


> I don't think Maxim was trying to do anything, but pass along information he has. After all Watanabe knives that are similar to Toyama are usually cheaper, so what purpose would be served by saying that they are also made by Toyama. Maxim doesn't benefit any from saying this.



Yeah I kind of agree. I don't know Maksim but didn't like the impugning of his motives. Have no idea if he is right or wrong or is relaying privileged information.



deleon said:


> That would be like asking a single descendant of Winchester to make a new rifle for you completely by themselves



But how many Winchester buyers believe that their guns are hand-made by a Mr. or Mrs. Winchester?


----------



## nonoyes

Forgot to mention it but refcast, your on-topic reply to the original inquiry was awesome.


----------



## aaamax

So much taking place on this thread that maybe we should open up new ones.

But for the time being, an interesting aspect is the notion of how "difficult it is for a Smith to keep up with demand." Hence the need for outsourcing as has been mentioned.

How many blades does one of the big boys sell in a day, 10? 100? At around $300 and up, I have trouble believing that these Smiths are bringing in $10k a day. Maybe, maybe, $5k per day. That is pretty damn good, no?
Well, so how many blades are we taking about realistically that these houses put out? A good Smith with the right gear and the pattern of work already set, I would think making 10-15 blades per day is certainly not difficult when you consider that you have a couple of helpers.
Keep in mind that it is not rocket science to make a blade once you know what you are doing and have the equipment. Nor does it take a long time.

I would think it almost more likely that Wat makes a surplus of the cheaper/standard line that maybe gets shipped out to others to rebrand so as not to lessen his own value.


----------



## bahamaroot

A forum geek trying to impugn Maxum or Jon is a joke to me. Talk about being too stuck up your own ass.


----------



## HRC_64

bahamaroot said:


> A forum geek... is a joke to me. Talk about being too stuck up your own ass.



here is a mirror... now take a look


----------



## bahamaroot

Oh gosh, I'm so offended by your childish retort.....


----------



## HRC_64

bahamaroot said:


> Talk about being too stuck up your own ass.



It continues...


----------



## labor of love

bahamaroot said:


> A forum geek trying to impugn Maxum or Jon is a joke to me. Talk about being too stuck up your own ass.


Yeah...
So on that note I’ll say that I’ll continue to support maxim. I like his business and I’ve always been a happy customer of his. 
I’m having a spirited debate here, and am simply taking an issue with something he said. 
He doubled down on what he said. I can respect the moral decision he made.
Sorry if anyone felt offended.


----------



## refcast

nonoyes said:


> Forgot to mention it but refcast, your on-topic reply to the original inquiry was awesome.



Thanks.

For the Fujiwara Teruyasu, I felt that it responded to a higher degree of edge taking than the Watanabe both through cutting the hair on the top of my head and through food. The Fujiwara Teruyasu more instantly snipped hair off while the Watanabe look just a little longer and didn't as aggressively just separate the hair off. The noises they make are different, too. The Fujiwara sounded a bit more damped and silently cut clumps of hair, while the Watanabe went kind of "pick-pick-pick" in very quick succession.

The Fujiwara Teruyasu produced food that was a bit less translucent and watery, a bit more opaque, and very slightly less bruised at the edges. For instance, if I cut a thin apple slice, the Maboroshi one feels drier and I can squeeze more juice out by squishing it between my fingers. The Watanabe is already somewhat pre-squished. This effect has little to do with thinness; I tried similar things with my Ginga as well, and the Watanabe is thicker in comparison behind the edge but produces slices that are less bruised.

By no means are any slices bruised, it's just comparatively so. So consider these things if you believe you would like this kind of edge taking. The drier cuts help with food release a bit, too, because since the cuts are stiffer, they don't conform as strongly to the blade face. I believe that edge taking does contribute to cutting power, but the two knives you are considering have different interpretations on this, as well as the balance of sharpness vs toughness; food release through kurouchi, hollows, and hammer indents vs a more conventional grind; and usage and user expectations.

Also, on the very finer and harder stones, the Fujiwara liked to micro-micro chip or bend if I wasn't very careful or if the angle was too extreme. The edge I can produce on the Watanabe is much tougher and hard to mis-shape during and after sharpening. I find that the more susceptible a steel is to this dis-tendment (but moreover, the finer its particles feel on the stones in sharpening), the better edge it can take, but of course it is this more dis-tendable. I tried Heiji semi-stainless and it kind of did this.


----------



## labor of love

I made my peace with this thread but I did want to share what Shinichi emailed me. After I asked him about some of the things that came up in this thread this was his response.
“Toyama San(noborikoi) is one of my master. We help each other. I cannot say which part is from his work. It always change.
He is around 80 years old. He works 3-4 days in a week.
Sooner or later, Toyama San will be retired. He is thinking in a few years. I have to inherit his skill from him.”


----------



## nonoyes

labor of love said:


> Sooner or later, Toyama San will be retired. He is thinking in a few years. I have to inherit his skill from him.”



That's so cool.


----------



## Ruso

nonoyes said:


> That's so cool.


???


----------



## panda

kato gets his kanji done by 5 year olds from korean sweat shops
yoshikane does the tangs for shigefusa
i just made all that up.
who gives a F. this thread is stupid.


----------



## daveb

The little clicky thing you did?

Just don't do it! (Can I get a swoosh?)


----------



## nonoyes

Ruso said:


> ???


Sorry, I did not actually mean to be so enigmatic. I just really like the sentiment and Shinichi's way with words. He seems pretty amazing. We can't all be so wise, but we can try to be so kind.


----------



## bahamaroot

Watanabe Pro and Toyama come in the same box.


----------



## dwalker

bahamaroot said:


> Watanabe Pro and Toyama come in the same box.


Are you implying that the blacksmiths don't also make their own bespoke knife boxes? That does it, I'm done with this hobby. [emoji6]


----------



## Jville

maxim said:


> To be honest i regret now that i commented at all, it is pointless it seems.
> But yes i would not mind if it was did same to me, if Shigefusa, Kato sold outsourcing knives to me and i said they only made them i will like to people will tell me that or corrected me if i wrong, specially for collectors sake


I'm glad you said something. I think it's messed up that some people are bashing you for saying something. Something as basic as who made the knife should not be deceptive. It does matter! Yeah it will cut the same, but that's beside the point. Part of hand crafted things in general is about the artist/ Smith etc work and them being part of it. If a Smith can't be disclosed then it should be left a mystery, not marked as something else. That is deceptive and wrong. I don't care what anyone says. It's basic wrong/ right


----------



## Jville

labor of love said:


> I made my peace with this thread but I did want to share what Shinichi emailed me. After I asked him about some of the things that came up in this thread this was his response.
> “Toyama San(noborikoi) is one of my master. We help each other. I cannot say which part is from his work. It always change.
> He is around 80 years old. He works 3-4 days in a week.
> Sooner or later, Toyama San will be retired. He is thinking in a few years. I have to inherit his skill from him.”



im bad with names and getting these Toyamas mixed up. Could you break it down barney style, is this the toyama that makes knives for maxim or a different Toyama?


----------



## labor of love

Yep, JNS Toyama.


----------



## captaincaed

After a frustrating couple of months, I finally got my camera fixed.
Thanks to everyone who helped out with my big carbon knife hunt a couple months back- here is the results.
Opted for the TF Denka 240. After several big weekly meal preps at home, it still sticks into the board and grabs my nail. Really like the steel, it was worth it.



As an aside, does anyone have experience with Shotcut? My exports seem annoyingly choppy, and I haven't much experience with video editing.


----------



## panda

wat - better grind
tf - better steel (white1)
neither profiles are ideal but to me tf profile is more versatile.


----------



## captaincaed

OK, here's a non-choppy version. Hopefully this doesn't hurt anyone's eyes.

Maybe next time I'll get my camera to focus properly too. Wouldn't that be neat?





panda said:


> wat - better grind
> tf - better steel (white1)
> neither profiles are ideal but to me tf profile is more versatile.


What do you enjoy about the white steel over blue (is that your feeling?)
I agree about the grind / profile. TF is very serviceable, not exactly perfection.


----------



## refcast

Well I can talk about this some. The white steel is less gummy to sharpen, but both sharpen really really nicely, even on the cladding. The blue steel is just more wear resistant and the tiniest bit more gummy, but both feel very similar. The heat treat between different blacksmiths in sharpenability is very different compared to steels by the same smith.

The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured.

The blue steel is a whole step up bitier, and also 1/2 step up in microchipness from the white steel. 

Both are great. I could live with just the white steel. It's just if you want the bitiness, more hardness, and edge retention, thinness of the blade (denka thinner than maboroshi), and alloy steel characteristics that you go denka. I actually prefer the white steel texture in food because I don't like that level of dryness. They're really cool to experience, and are amazing, but they aren't my priorities.


----------



## panda

Wat is a b1tch to sharpen, but edge lasts forever. Tf is sexy on stones and retention is decent. I loovvvveee wat grind tho.


----------



## Anton

refcast said:


> Well I can talk about this some. The white steel is less gummy to sharpen, but both sharpen really really nicely, even on the cladding. The blue steel is just more wear resistant and the tiniest bit more gummy, but both feel very similar. The heat treat between different blacksmiths in sharpenability is very different compared to steels by the same smith.
> 
> The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured.
> 
> The blue steel is a whole step up bitier, and also 1/2 step up in microchipness from the white steel.
> 
> Both are great. I could live with just the white steel. It's just if you want the bitiness, more hardness, and edge retention, thinness of the blade (denka thinner than maboroshi), and alloy steel characteristics that you go denka. I actually prefer the white steel texture in food because I don't like that level of dryness. They're really cool to experience, and are amazing, but they aren't my priorities.


very well put


----------



## captaincaed

panda said:


> Wat is a b1tch to sharpen, but edge lasts forever. Tf is sexy on stones and retention is decent. I loovvvveee wat grind tho.



Just to double check, this is the blue #2 Wat that's difficult to sharpen?


----------



## captaincaed

refcast said:


> Well I can talk about this some. The white steel is less gummy to sharpen, but both sharpen really really nicely, even on the cladding. The blue steel is just more wear resistant and the tiniest bit more gummy, but both feel very similar. The heat treat between different blacksmiths in sharpenability is very different compared to steels by the same smith.
> 
> The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured.
> 
> The blue steel is a whole step up bitier, and also 1/2 step up in microchipness from the white steel.
> 
> Both are great. I could live with just the white steel. It's just if you want the bitiness, more hardness, and edge retention, thinness of the blade (denka thinner than maboroshi), and alloy steel characteristics that you go denka. I actually prefer the white steel texture in food because I don't like that level of dryness. They're really cool to experience, and are amazing, but they aren't my priorities.



Yeah this is quite the nuanced view of the two, thank you.
Sounds like based on my wishes for this knife, I made a good call. I was looking for edge retention above all, but it's good to hear the cladding is workable, for personalizing the grind in the future.

As far as sharpening, I'm really happy with the Denka feel. I agree I get different sharpening experience with different setups and different knives. When I don't like the feel, it's often because I don't have my stones well soaked, or something like that, but once that's done properly I haven't complained about any so far. That said, I have a ZDP coming in tomorrow, so I may be in for a surprise there...


----------



## Corradobrit1

refcast said:


> Well I can talk about this some. The white steel is less gummy to sharpen, but both sharpen really really nicely, even on the cladding. The blue steel is just more wear resistant and the tiniest bit more gummy, but both feel very similar. The heat treat between different blacksmiths in sharpenability is very different compared to steels by the same smith.
> 
> The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured.
> 
> The blue steel is a whole step up bitier, and also 1/2 step up in microchipness from the white steel.
> 
> Both are great. I could live with just the white steel. It's just if you want the bitiness, more hardness, and edge retention, thinness of the blade (denka thinner than maboroshi), and alloy steel characteristics that you go denka. I actually prefer the white steel texture in food because I don't like that level of dryness. They're really cool to experience, and are amazing, but they aren't my priorities.



What he said


----------



## swarth

_"The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured."
_
What? I must be doing it wrong.


----------



## Chef Doom

tgfencer said:


> Gentlemen, I seriously doubt anybody here considers Maxim or Jon as infallible, demi-gods of the knife world. If their interactions with the community at large seem to have changed in the last year or several years, then yes, perhaps we must question why, but we must also consider how we, the community, have changed. This relationship works both ways. The internet is a poor place to judge one's intentions and it is easy to get caught up in misunderstandings or interpretations and I, for one, will not be forming opinions based on this thread.


Jon and Maxim ARE Demigods and I am their ZEUS!!! Bow down to me you silly knife waving mortals! Pay me tribute!


----------



## tgfencer

I shall sacrifice a 100 virgins on the altar. But should I use a TF or Watanabe knife to do the job ...


----------



## Chef Doom

panda said:


> do you go to a restaurant because you know of a certain chef that runs the place interests you, do you think he actually cooked your meal?? and would you pay double if he really did?


Yes, yes, and double yes. Foodies like me are constantly ruining the dining culture at a restaurant near you.


----------



## Chef Doom

Midsummer said:


> When I was delivering babies it was kinda interesting when VIP's came in to be treated. They would want the head of the department of Anesthesia to place their labor epidural. But that Chairperson had not done an epidural for some time. It was a task generally related to the nurse anesthetist. The Nurse anesthetist put them in all day, every day. Also the regular floor nurses were replaced by their supervisors. The supervisors who had spent more time negotiating contracts in the last year than doing labor and delivery. But they were the big cheeses. It aways seemed like the VIP's got poorer care.


 This is actually funny because it's never been very American for the person in charge to be the best in craft. That is more of an Asian philosophy.

In America, just because you are a General doesn't mean you were a bad ass soldier


----------



## Chef Doom

labor of love said:


> Wat KU Nakiri is a thing of legend among Nakiri people. Start with the standard.


If I was foolish enough to get a second nakiri it would be a Watanabe KU.


----------



## Chef Doom

captaincaed said:


> After a frustrating couple of months, I finally got my camera fixed.
> Thanks to everyone who helped out with my big carbon knife hunt a couple months back- here is the results.
> Opted for the TF Denka 240. After several big weekly meal preps at home, it still sticks into the board and grabs my nail. Really like the steel, it was worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> As an aside, does anyone have experience with Shotcut? My exports seem annoyingly choppy, and I haven't much experience with video editing.


 I'm only reviving old comments cause you HAD to post your newest knif buy in the non new knife buying thread. And no, I don't care who or who isn't the OP.

And I am not impressed with this video. Where are the tomatoes and bell peppers? Mushrooms and onions is the cowards way out.

Should have went with the Hide, or the CLEAVER!


----------



## refcast

swarth said:


> _"The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured."
> _
> What? I must be doing it wrong.



I mean when I do a slice. And instead of pushing down, pulling until the knife sinks in. And holding the food steady and close to the blade with the other hand. 

But yeah, chop and water gushes. Great for speed. I just take extra care when testing for myself.


----------



## refcast

captaincaed said:


> Yeah this is quite the nuanced view of the two, thank you.
> Sounds like based on my wishes for this knife, I made a good call. I was looking for edge retention above all, but it's good to hear the cladding is workable, for personalizing the grind in the future.
> 
> As far as sharpening, I'm really happy with the Denka feel. I agree I get different sharpening experience with different setups and different knives. When I don't like the feel, it's often because I don't have my stones well soaked, or something like that, but once that's done properly I haven't complained about any so far. That said, I have a ZDP coming in tomorrow, so I may be in for a surprise there...



The thing about the Denka is . . . I actually feel its sharper than the Maboroshi, or bitier, as I said. It bites and cuts into things the Maboroshi hesitates a bit more with. Like cutting paper towel horizontally. I was able to stack food the highest I've been and still have the knife cut through without making the stack slip, or without squishing the stack. There were still spaces between the food stuffs . . . the case that comes to mind were bell pepper strips and dice. So this is what I meant by alloy (carbon) steel characteristics . . . I have a Gihei Hap40 and the edge retention is probably longer . . . but its not as sharp, bitey. It still has the alloyed steel dryness in food . . . but it lacks that special bite I guess.


----------



## HRC_64

Conventional wisdom says white1 absolute potential should be sharper than AS in terms of absolute potential.
That's probably causing some confusion in the comments above. 

The Denka seems to show more real world edge stability for any given level of thin/behind the edge.
A thinner Denka vs a Thicker Maraboshi is probably what is being compared in some comments.

In other words, once you can get the White 1 knives equally/more sharp (grinds)
they will be more fragile risk/microchipping etc...


----------



## jacko9

I have the T-F Nashiji 240 Gyuto anybody compare them to the other T-F offerings? I also just got the Way 180 Nakiri and


----------



## labor of love

Chef Doom said:


> If I was foolish enough to get a second nakiri it would be a Watanabe KU.


I had a shig nakiri a long time ago. Only cost $200. It was pretty but I did not enjoy it.


----------



## Ruso

labor of love said:


> I had a shig nakiri a long time ago. Only cost $200. It was pretty but I did not enjoy it.


Well, yes - because it's a Nakiri


----------



## jacko9

My Watanabe is the 180 KU and it's the first non-traditional knife I've owned. I was hoping that without the pointed tips my wife would feel comfortable using it since she only wants to use short petty's right now. I've tried it and it's no better than my Gyutos so, I'll reserve judgement until I get more experience with it.


----------



## daveb

labor of love said:


> I had a shig nakiri a long time ago. Only cost $200. It was pretty but I did not enjoy it.


Did we have the same Shig? It handled like a brick.


----------



## labor of love

daveb said:


> Did we have the same Shig? It handled like a brick.


Mine had pretty clouds(and they really are pretty in person). It was a 210mm nakiri...and yes it handled like a clunky brick.


----------



## Chef Doom

I keep warning people that nakiris are only fun for a month. Some shine better than others but only a select few will use them as their go to blade. 

I have a ss geshin uraku that I take when I visit friends and family but I never use it at home.


----------



## Mucho Bocho

I despised my Moritaka nakiri and thought the same as Doom until I found a Kato KU 180. Some men might prefer men until the right woman comes along.


----------



## labor of love

Mucho Bocho said:


> I despised my Moritaka nakiri and thought the same as Doom until I found a Kato KU 180. Some men might prefer men until the right woman comes along.


Oh no he didn’t!


----------



## panda

lol. 

i do hate shig grind tho


----------



## Anton

labor of love said:


> Oh no he didn’t!



That happend...


----------



## labor of love

panda said:


> lol.
> 
> i do hate shig grind tho


Yep. Although it was a lot worse than gyuto.


----------



## stuplarosa

lemeneid said:


> Anyone has experience with Watanabe’s custom work. I emailed Shinichi regarding putting a western handle on the knife and he’s said he wasn’t experienced in western handles.



I worked with Watanabe-san a while back to make a blade with a blank tang. Then I sent the blade to Daniel O'Malley for a western handle. If you search the forum you can probably find a picture somewhere.


----------



## Chef Doom

I must say, after reading this entire thread, even though it was semi-old, I gotta say it was one of the most entertaining threads I have read in a while. I'm sad it occurred during a busy time for me when I was in rehab for my addiction strippers. Shout out to Candy for finally getting her bachelors degree.

Shots were fired, feelings were hurt, some numbskulls dared to call out my demi-god sons with no merit or basic understanding of the facts, the OP's question was barely answered....and best of all, not a single apology was offered. Even when some people were proven to be wrong. 

I like how Maxim was constantly attacked for an obvious misunderstanding. This is why in the West we refer to each other by nicknames. There are a million Bobby Smiths, but their is only one Lucky Bobby V from Detroit [emoji41]

I also like how JKI was accused of shady rebranding business shenanigans. I have been trying to get Jon to make shady business deals for MONTHS and he won't budge. I can't believe how someone can be so stubbornly honest. He clearly did not pay attention to the Get Rich Or Die Trying "Classic" album. Lots of wisdom he needs to revisit. Lots of wisdom indeed.

Finally, we need another Toyama/Watanabe/TF passaround. All of this talk was meaningless without tests and observations. Not on my dime though. I'm broke. Strippers I tell you.....they know how to pretend to love.....


----------



## Xenif

Oh how we have missed you Chef Doom.


----------



## daveb

Where does one find these strippers that are more compelling than knives?

Asking for a friend.


----------



## panda

scarlett's cabaret hallandale


----------



## Chef Doom

daveb said:


> Where does one find these strippers that are more compelling than knives?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


It varies from region to region, but every establishment will have a gem or 2 [emoji108]


----------



## Chef Doom

As an added bonus, I had a friend who spent his entire military bonus on one stripper in one night in Vegas. No champagne room, no VIP section, not a happy ending (pun intended). 

Bastard had the nerve to get angry because I didn't put in more of an effort to stop him. Like I'm about to tell an ex-marine how to spend his money HA. I already got stabbed once making that mistake. Fool me once...


----------



## Jville

panda said:


> lol.
> 
> i do hate shig grind tho



Alot of hate here for the Shig nakiri. I got a 180 ku and the grinds fantastic. It has a little bit of an s to it, super thin behind the edge, performs great.


----------



## Anton

Chef Doom said:


> Lucky Bobby V





Chef Doom said:


> I must say, after reading this entire thread, even though it was semi-old, I gotta say it was one of the most entertaining threads I have read in a while. I'm sad it occurred during a busy time for me when I was in rehab for my addiction strippers. Shout out to Candy for finally getting her bachelors degree.
> 
> Shots were fired, feelings were hurt, some numbskulls dared to call out my demi-god sons with no merit or basic understanding of the facts, the OP's question was barely answered....and best of all, not a single apology was offered. Even when some people were proven to be wrong.
> 
> I like how Maxim was constantly attacked for an obvious misunderstanding. This is why in the West we refer to each other by nicknames. There are a million Bobby Smiths, but their is only one Lucky Bobby V from Detroit [emoji41]
> 
> I also like how JKI was accused of shady rebranding business shenanigans. I have been trying to get Jon to make shady business deals for MONTHS and he won't budge. I can't believe how someone can be so stubbornly honest. He clearly did not pay attention to the Get Rich Or Die Trying "Classic" album. Lots of wisdom he needs to revisit. Lots of wisdom indeed.
> 
> Finally, we need another Toyama/Watanabe/TF passaround. All of this talk was meaningless without tests and observations. Not on my dime though. I'm broke. Strippers I tell you.....they know how to pretend to love.....



You have my vote if you ever decide to run for a House seat. God only knows we need someone in those chairs that can comfortably admit to his stripper addictions 

I need to buy you a drink if I ever run into you at JKI, i'm there often. 

And yes, I've also been pushing Jon for years to stop being so nice and charge for all the extra work he does on fixing all the f'up knives he gets. 

Lastly, someone needs to name their kid Lucky Bobby to achieve immortality


----------



## ThinMan

Just when I thought this thread couldn’t get any better, it gets better. 

Thank you Chef Doom.


----------



## Interapid101

Briefly dated a stripper and it was a lot like nakiri. Thought it would be fun, but it wasn't anywhere as good as I expected.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Doom for house seat More gals in after yesterday. All the Me too rage he would be sacrificed in a voodoo amazon ritual.


----------



## Xenif

Interapid101 said:


> Briefly dated a stripper and it was a lot like nakiri. Thought it would be fun, but it wasn't anywhere as good as I expected.


Now I feel like a pimp for owning 6 Nakiri, 7th one will be a Wat 180 hopefully. Maybe like you guys I will fall in love with a single 240 Gyuto someday, and then I will go bury the dead nakiris in the backyard.



Jville said:


> Alot of hate here for the Shig nakiri. I got a 180 ku and the grinds fantastic. It has a little bit of an s to it, super thin behind the edge, performs great.



Im actually thinking of the same thing ... Im not sure why people dont like them very much.


----------



## daveb

Xenif said:


> Im not sure why people dont like them very much



The "handled like a brick" part is important. Will say mine was a 210 - probably too long for a good experience.


----------



## captaincaed

Interapid101 said:


> Briefly dated a stripper and it was a lot like nakiri. Thought it would be fun, but it wasn't anywhere as good as I expected.


Nakiri are like mopeds...


----------



## Anton

captaincaed said:


> Nakiri are like mopeds...



Don’t you blame mopeds, plenty of good childhood memories


----------



## daveb

captaincaed said:


> Nakiri are like mopeds...



I know that one. hehehe


----------



## Chef Doom

Keith Sinclair said:


> Doom for house seat More gals in after yesterday. All the Me too rage he would be sacrificed in a voodoo amazon ritual.


[emoji23] I believe it.


----------



## Chef Doom

For me, a nakiri can be a good performer, but it just doesn't live up to the desire of use you might think. I got mine from Jon in the early days when I wanted every knife in every profile by every maker. I actually got it to eventually jump onto an usuba which never happened.

If I could do it all over again I would have gotten a cleaver a lot earlier.


----------



## Chef Doom

@Anton Do you think I could get away with one of my favorite porn stars being my secretary?


----------



## Chef Doom

I should note that the nakiri did save me money in the long run. I got a simple knife that does not intimidate relatives that I won't cry over if it so happens to disappear and I don't have a pricey usuba sitting in the drawer.


----------



## daveb

Chef Doom said:


> @Anton Do you think I could get away with one of my favorite porn stars being my secretary?



The segues in this thread have seques.


----------



## panda

I'm partial to Holly Michaels


----------



## jacko9

I think J Low is the best business woman out there


----------



## jacko9

But - I don't think she sells T-F or Watanabe blades.


----------



## Jon-cal

Haven’t checked in on this thread in a while. It sure has taken a different turn haha. Or several rather


----------



## nonoyes

Chef Doom said:


> @Anton Do you think I could get away with one of my favorite porn stars being my secretary?



As a voter, I say yes. You will be a real man of the people riding to the office every day on the back of her moped.

Hope that helps, OP.


----------



## Anton

Chef Doom said:


> @Anton Do you think I could get away with one of my favorite porn stars being my secretary?


In this world? Probably two, and a goat


----------



## brainsausage

Man, I missed one helluva party while I was gone over the last few months! All I’ll say wellllll after the fact is that Jon and Maxim have never steered me wrong, in any regard. And ofttimes they’ve refused my business as they didn’t have what I was looking for specifically. It seems to me that quite a few people misconstrued the points they were going for.

In regards to other hot topics! The 165 KU shig nakiri that I bought on a lark a few years back is basically a small axe. I dinged the damn ‘tip’ the first time I used it trying to get through a tall onion. Gonna wait till prices get astronomical and sell it ‘as is’ at a profit

I’ve owned two Toyama gyuto, a 240 and a 270. And I’ve used another 270 that I bought for my sous chef awhile back. I’ve said this many times before, but I’ll repeat it again- I came to the conclusion that the grind on the Toyama excels on the 270. Shorter knives with this style grind just don’t work as well. The added weight and balance have a lot to do with performance as well IMO. The 270 Wat I used awhile back was much the same, but I haven’t used Wats in other lengths to verify that it’s strictly a length based game in that regard.

All this talk gave me flashbacks to five years or so ago when there was a killer 270ish Wat on BST that was part of a mass culling that an old school member was putting up for offer. Labor, Panda and I were not that flush and contemplating buying the Wat together as a time share knife!

Now I have a Billup, Toyama, and multiple Shigs that I rarely if ever use. It’s funny how the industry flips toolwise once you get to top of the heap. You can afford the best, but don’t have an excuse to use them most the time...


----------



## Anton

brainsausage said:


> Man, I missed one helluva party while I was gone over the last few months! All I’ll say wellllll after the fact is that Jon and Maxim have never steered me wrong, in any regard. And ofttimes they’ve refused my business as they didn’t have what I was looking for specifically. It seems to me that quite a few people misconstrued the points they were going for.
> 
> In regards to other hot topics! The 165 KU shig nakiri that I bought on a lark a few years back is basically a small axe. I dinged the damn ‘tip’ the first time I used it trying to get through a tall onion. Gonna wait till prices get astronomical and sell it ‘as is’ at a profit
> 
> I’ve owned two Toyama gyuto, a 240 and a 270. And I’ve used another 270 that I bought for my sous chef awhile back. I’ve said this many times before, but I’ll repeat it again- I came to the conclusion that the grind on the Toyama excels on the 270. Shorter knives with this style grind just don’t work as well. The added weight and balance have a lot to do with performance as well IMO. The 270 Wat I used awhile back was much the same, but I haven’t used Wats in other lengths to verify that it’s strictly a length based game in that regard.
> 
> All this talk I gave me flash backs to five years or so back when there was a killer 270ish Wat on BST that was part of a mass culling that an old school member was putting up for offer. Labor, Panda and I were not that flush and contemplating buying the Wat together as a time share knife!
> 
> Now I have a Billup, Toyama, and multiple Shigs that I rarely if ever use. It’s funny how the industry flips toolwise once you get to top of the heap. You can afford the best, but don’t have an excuse to use them most the time...



dude - where have you been???


----------



## labor of love

Anton said:


> dude - where have you been???


Working. Haha! Im literally closer to dishwashers than I am my own siblings due to the amount of time I work. I guess brainsausage has better things to do on his smoke breaks than browse this forum unlike myself.


----------



## brainsausage

Anton said:


> dude - where have you been???





labor of love said:


> Working. Haha! Im literally closer to dishwashers than I am my own siblings due to the amount of time I work. I guess brainsausage has better things to do on his smoke breaks than browse this forum unlike myself.



Funny you should say smoke breaks as typically my break is to check the meat stuffs surrounded by smoke 

This past spring/summer was pretty grueling work wise, and I find it best sometimes if I narrow my signal, both in terms of input and output online. Being in charge of a bunch of disparate personalities can be very taxing to say the least. Cheffing is very akin to running a kindergarten classroom. I’ll never make my own offspring, as I have far too many adoptees on hand at any given moment that need full attention!


----------



## panda

and half of them are special needs!


----------



## daveb

Half???


----------



## bahamaroot

daveb said:


> Only Half???


Fixed it for you.


----------



## daveb

It wasn't broken. Brevity good.


----------



## panda

i was being generous, more like 100%


----------



## LucasFur

13 pages deep ... wow 

my vote is to TF ... i like a more LAZRRR geometry


----------



## faverodefavero

Toyama


----------



## 954kevin

Interapid101 said:


> Briefly dated a stripper and it was a lot like nakiri. Thought it would be fun, but it wasn't anywhere as good as I expected.



i went with a stripper for around 8 years. there were downsides, but the performance was enough to make up for it.

in the end, it just wasnt meant to be.

im pretty happy with my new wat 180 though. it suites my use case well. similarly, ive hit a couple obstacles in our short time together, but otherwise it performs exceptionally well.


----------



## Greenbean1224

bahamaroot said:


> I'd be looking to a Toyama over both.


Isn’t Toyama way more expensive 
I keep looking at them maybe I’m looking at the wrong knives


----------



## parbaked

TF Denka is more expensive than Toyama. In fact Denka even costs more than Toyama Damascus.
Watanabe is about the same price as Toyama after upgrading to comparable handle and adding postage.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

parbaked said:


> TF Denka is more expensive than Toyama. In fact Denka even costs more than Toyama Damascus.
> Watanabe is about the same price as Toyama after upgrading to comparable handle and adding postage.



A 240 Toyama is $395.46 at JNS; a 240 Watanabe at Carbon Knife Company is $345.00. Both with magnolia handles and horn ferrules and shipping included. Both are out of stock.


----------



## Greenbean1224

Pensacola Tiger said:


> A 240 Toyama is $395.46 at JNS; a 240 Watanabe at Carbon Knife Company is $345.00. Both with magnolia handles and horn ferrules and shipping included. Both are out of stock.


Lol. I just saw that it was 395$. I think I must have been looking at something else. I thought I saw them for close to a 1000$


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Greenbean1224 said:


> Lol. I just saw that it was 395$. I think I must have been looking at something else. I thought I saw them for close to a 1000$


The honyaki is $882.18.


----------



## minibatataman

With the JNS sale a couple weeks ago on the Toyama and the ridiculous increase in TF you could've probably bought both a Watanabe and a Toyama for the price of a TF


----------



## parbaked

Pensacola Tiger said:


> A 240 Toyama is $395.46 at JNS; a 240 Watanabe at Carbon Knife Company is $345.00. Both with magnolia handles and horn ferrules and shipping included. Both are out of stock.



I was referring to the prices direct from Watanabe where a 240 gyuto with the cheapest horn handle is around $380 shipped.
The Watanabe knives at Carbon Knife Co are a great deal. The 210 gyutos in stock are cheaper than direct from Shinichi.


----------



## josemartinlopez

lemeneid said:


> After doing some research I’ve narrowed down my search to these two knives. I’m looking for a new 240 gyuto and am narrowing it down to these two.


@daveb, I may have a question.


----------



## tchan001

No need to ask.

lemeneid 2018: 
TF or Watanabe

lemeneid 2020: 
better TF Denka or can I get TF to make me a honyaki.


----------



## DitmasPork

From my stash—240 Denka and 240 Watanabe Iron Clad Blue.

Love them both, very different characteristics in these two iconic knives.

For me, comparing the two:

TF has a distinctively, livelier feeling steel, it cuts more aggressively; nimbler than my Wat, appears to get significantly sharper. Aesthetically fits in my wheelhouse, since I'm a rustic KU fan. Better for tip work than Wat.

My Watanabe is a pure 'worker,' well balanced, no frills, gets the job done. If prepping a lot of ingredients for a big supper party, I'd prob grab the Wat over the TF—it's dependable, less idiosyncratic than my TF. Wat's blue steel holds its edge for a long time. However, I do need to be more vigilant wiping down the knife, cladding is quite reactive.

For everyday cooking for two, the TF gets the nod—lighter and more low maintenance with stainless clad. My Wat weighs in at

Tough call as to which I'd choose over the other. Sorry if not helpful in helping you decide.


----------



## tchan001

Nice, a red handle Denka.


----------



## josemartinlopez

Incredible photo. By the way, what are the handles?


----------



## lemeneid

DitmasPork said:


> From my stash—240 Denka and 240 Watanabe Iron Clad Blue.
> 
> Love them both, very different characteristics in these two iconic knives.
> 
> For me, comparing the two:
> 
> TF has a distinctively, livelier feeling steel, it cuts more aggressively; nimbler than my Wat, appears to get significantly sharper. Aesthetically fits in my wheelhouse, since I'm a rustic KU fan. Better for tip work than Wat.
> 
> My Watanabe is a pure 'worker,' well balanced, no frills, gets the job done. If prepping a lot of ingredients for a big supper party, I'd prob grab the Wat over the TF—it's dependable, less idiosyncratic than my TF. Wat's blue steel holds its edge for a long time. However, I do need to be more vigilant wiping down the knife, cladding is quite reactive.
> 
> For everyday cooking for two, the TF gets the nod—lighter and more low maintenance with stainless clad. My Wat weighs in at
> 
> Tough call as to which I'd choose over the other. Sorry if not helpful in helping you decide.
> 
> 
> View attachment 89498
> 
> View attachment 89506





tchan001 said:


> Nice, a red handle Denka.


Best looking Denka out there


----------



## DitmasPork

josemartinlopez said:


> Incredible photo. By the way, what are the handles?


Wood.


----------



## RockyBasel

Chef Doom said:


> If I was foolish enough to get a second nakiri it would be a Watanabe KU.



I recommend this one: 210 Wat Nakiri - or, 210 Toyoma Nakiri


----------



## DitmasPork

lemeneid said:


> Best looking Denka out there


Bought if from a dude with impeccable taste.


----------



## Jville

DitmasPork said:


> From my stash—240 Denka and 240 Watanabe Iron Clad Blue.
> 
> Love them both, very different characteristics in these two iconic knives.
> 
> For me, comparing the two:
> 
> TF has a distinctively, livelier feeling steel, it cuts more aggressively; nimbler than my Wat, appears to get significantly sharper. Aesthetically fits in my wheelhouse, since I'm a rustic KU fan. Better for tip work than Wat.
> 
> My Watanabe is a pure 'worker,' well balanced, no frills, gets the job done. If prepping a lot of ingredients for a big supper party, I'd prob grab the Wat over the TF—it's dependable, less idiosyncratic than my TF. Wat's blue steel holds its edge for a long time. However, I do need to be more vigilant wiping down the knife, cladding is quite reactive.
> 
> For everyday cooking for two, the TF gets the nod—lighter and more low maintenance with stainless clad. My Wat weighs in at
> 
> Tough call as to which I'd choose over the other. Sorry if not helpful in helping you decide.
> 
> 
> View attachment 89498
> 
> View attachment 89506


I feel like Lemeneid has already figured this issue out. Good info though.


----------



## lemeneid

RockyBasel said:


> I recommend this one: 210 Wat Nakiri - or, 210 Toyoma Nakiri
> 
> View attachment 89511


Was that a custom? Thought Wat Ku nakiris only came in 180


----------



## DitmasPork

Jville said:


> I feel like Lemeneid has already figured this issue out. Good info though.


Didn’t realize it was such an old post!


----------



## lemeneid




----------



## Jville

DitmasPork said:


> Didn’t realize it was such an old post!


Happens to the best of them.


----------



## lemeneid

DitmasPork said:


> Didn’t realize it was such an old post!


It was THE post that started it all


----------



## RockyBasel

Great insights in this string going way back for a newbie like me


----------



## RockyBasel

lemeneid said:


> Was that a custom? Thought Wat Ku nakiris only came in 180




I just told Shinichi I want a 210 mm Nakiri and he obliged without any questions asked - here is a better view - it’s 307 gm though


----------



## Jville

lemeneid said:


> It was THE post that started it all


I may be coming to the Denka side.


----------



## ma_sha1

It has been proven that the non KU watt is actually Toyama.

between TF Mab. & Denka, the Mab is closer to the Toyama price while Denka is a lot more expensive now, no longer comparable to Watt/Toyama. 

After having both Mab. & Denka in 210, as a home cook with lite usage, I couldn’t tell any real difference between the two to justify keeping Denka over Marboroshi, so out went the Denka.

I still have one Mab & one Toyama, it’s tough, I don’t know how to choose between the two if I am only allowed to keep one


----------



## RockyBasel

Has it been “proven proven” beyond doubt that Toyoma and Wat are the same?

Or is it forum mythology based largely on forum heresay

Not sure - I read slightly different versions on various posts

And the Nakiri’s I got from them (Wat and Toyoma) were different knives - made by different people for sure


----------



## ma_sha1

I should clarify I was only referring to Gyuto. There could always be doubt, nothing is absolute.

However, it’s been proven beyond reasonable doubt IMHO. Thus, these two were often collectively referred to as Watayama or Toyanabe.


----------



## M1k3

ma_sha1 said:


> I should clarify I was only referring to Gyuto. There could always be doubt, nothing is absolute.
> 
> However, it’s been proven beyond reasonable doubt IMHO. Thus, these two were often collectively referred to as Watayama or Toyanabe.


*Watanoyama or Toyamanabe


----------



## RockyBasel

It may well be that there is a symbiotic entity Toyonabe or watanoyoma 

But I do hear a lot also about Toyoma being 80 years old, which may crimp is production volume. Maksim, is the only retailer I know of Toyoma, only gets in Toyoma knives once in a blue moon, in small quantities. On the other hand, Shinichi has stock on hand, creates a 210mm Pro Nakiri for me in 2 weeks, etc. Seems to have an abundance of production capacity 

Just wondering.....


----------



## daveb

It has been proven only to beyond the doubt of the poster. Does not pass the sniff test to me.


----------



## wind88

Bare in mind that Watanabe doesn’t sell just rebadged Toyama. He also sells a bunch of other cool stuff.


----------



## Xenif

Nerco thread turned Toyamanabe/Watanayama thread. This is K K F


----------



## RockyBasel

Random - is ashi Hamono Honyaki worth buying?


----------



## lemeneid

RockyBasel said:


> Random - is ashi Hamono Honyaki worth buying?


Only if you’ve the cash to blow IMO.


----------



## RockyBasel

Is it worth waiting a year and a half for a Togashi-tosa blue Honyaki or should I satisfy my thirst for a good Honyaki now and pick up the Ashi Hamono Honyaki 240 mm Gyuto? That is the dilemma


----------



## RockyBasel

I have the money, but is it well spent?


----------



## lemeneid

Just buy it. Don’t like it, someone on BST will take it off you.


----------



## RockyBasel

Good advice


----------



## daveb

RockyBasel said:


> I have the money, but is it well spent?



You're infringing on Jose's territory......


----------



## Receiver52

why the long wait for a Togashi? Where are you looking?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Is the TF Mab a considerable step up from the nashiji line? I know they use different shirogami stock, but ultimately is it double the knife?


----------



## tchan001

RockyBasel said:


> Random - is ashi Hamono Honyaki worth buying?


Make sure you know what you are buying though.






Fake Ashi Honyaki Sold


I have come across a knife that was sold as an Ashi Honyaki on one of the usual places for knife and stone sales in Japan, which I believe is in fact not an Ashi. Let me start by saying that I have no horses in this race, the sale has absolutely nothing with me and I do not know who has bought...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Corradobrit1

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Is the TF Mab a considerable step up from the nashiji line? I know they use different shirogami stock, but ultimately is it double the knife?


IMO well worth the extra for an inhouse forged knife, especially with a Western handle.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Corradobrit1 said:


> IMO well worth the extra for an inhouse forged knife, especially with a Western handle.



Is there a difference in performance between the prelaminated and in-house forged steel?

If I were to order western handle, I'd get it unfinished and get the handles done here myself. The fit and finish of those are horrid.


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## daveb

Has anyone answered the question yet?

Wat.

TF? Bless their heart....


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## jacko9

I don't think so my T-F Nashiji is as good as W#1 gets - the rest of his line is just "chrome plated fluff". Perhaps a bit better edge retention but not worth the extra dollars in my opinion. Watanabe Pro KU Nakiri is great but his stainless clad blue#2 is nothing special.


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## lemeneid

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Is the TF Mab a considerable step up from the nashiji line? I know they use different shirogami stock, but ultimately is it double the knife?


Only for the western handle. Otherwise no.
Anything to Denka, BIG step up. Even my thinned and sharpened Mab doesn’t hold a candle to the Denka ootb.

And for me the answer to TF or Watanabe, the answer is TF, although I do love my Toyanabe loads too. TF just cuts more aggressively and swiftly, has better food release, better edge retention and sharpens up so much easier. Not banging the Wat, but Denka is just a different animal altogether.


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## tchan001

Like I've pointed out before on another thread. A gentleman found the TF Denka as such a perfect knife that he sold off his other unicorns at low prices because he had found THE ONE.
This post is quite convincing and is one of the factors which influenced me to research and buy my Denka.





SOLD - WTS Kato workhorse/Shig/Ikeda Suminagashi


Hello Everybody. I’ve been mostly a lurker on these forums for years and eventually stopped collecting knives after finding the perfect knife for me which happens to be a TF Denka. Looking to sell off a few knives that I’ve picked up over the years either on this forum or website. Thank you for...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## zizirex

Hi, Any idea on how reactive is TF Nashiji line is? I'm thinking about their petty? in humid weather is it gonna be problematic or once the patina is on, nothing to be worried?


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## Garm

Corradobrit1 said:


> IMO well worth the extra for an inhouse forged knife, especially with a Western handle.


The Nashiji line isn't forged inhouse? That seems very odd to me.


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## lemeneid

Garm said:


> The Nashiji line isn't forged inhouse? That seems very odd to me.


It is forged in house just not prelaminated


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## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> It is forged in house just not prelaminated


He's referring to the Nashiji line, which uses prelaminated bar stock, so forge welded by the supplier.


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## Garm

Yes, but forge welded isn't synonymous with inhouse forged, which was what had me wondering about your comment.
That clears it up


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## RockyBasel

Receiver52 said:


> why the long wait for a Togashi? Where are you looking?


Long wait due to fact Togashi blue with Tosa sharpener are hard to find as they are super busy. Togashi-Yohei are more available


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## Carl Kotte

Never tried a tf so I say wat!


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## jacko9

zizirex said:


> Hi, Any idea on how reactive is TF Nashiji line is? I'm thinking about their petty? in humid weather is it gonna be problematic or once the patina is on, nothing to be worried?



The T-F Nashiji Petty is Stainless Clad and I use it as a daily driver. I have never had any issue with the W#1 core reacting badly it's in my knife block and for the past four years it's been very maintenance free.


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## Corradobrit1

Carl Kotte said:


> Never tried a tf so I say wat!


Say Wat again. I double dare you


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## Forty Ounce

Before you go and buy a TF.. watch this video and see how bad the low spots can be... TF is great, just like any other knife, if you put countless hours into fixing it.


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## RockyBasel

Forty Ounce said:


> Before you go and buy a TF.. watch this video and see how bad the low spots can be... TF is great, just like any other knife, if you put countless hours into fixing it.




For the price for a Denka, I expect Togashi like quality, fit and finish. I really think there should be a knife tuning shop - like an auto-care center, where stock knives can be tuned to become performance machines. I guess that is what JKI does


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## Forty Ounce

RockyBasel said:


> For the price for a Denka, I expect Togashi like quality, fit and finish. I really think there should be a knife tuning shop - like an auto-care center, where stock knives can be tuned to become performance machines. I guess that is what JKI does


Lol, you literally just replied to a knife polisher..


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## Corradobrit1

Most of the low spots I've seen are higher up the blade road in the cladding. They're never going to be an issue for most users. Obviously if you want a nice even Kasumi finish they may pose a problem.

Can we see the rest of that knife. The handle looks really good.


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## daveb

RockyBasel said:


> where stock knives can be tuned to become performance machines



And Ma's house.......


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## daddy yo yo

RockyBasel said:


> For the price for a Denka, I expect Togashi like quality, fit and finish. I really think there should be a knife tuning shop - like an auto-care center, where stock knives can be tuned to become performance machines. I guess that is what JKI does


For the price of a Denka I expect perfect quality, fit and finish. And above all, no need for further tuning.


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## Forty Ounce

Corradobrit1 said:


> Most of the low spots I've seen are higher up the blade road in the cladding. They're never going to be an issue for most users. Obviously if you want a nice even Kasumi finish they may pose a problem.
> 
> Can we see the rest of that knife. The handle looks really good.



Handle pics are #3 and #4


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## Forty Ounce

daddy yo yo said:


> For the price of a Denka I expect perfect quality, fit and finish. And above all, no need for further tuning.


Knives are still tools.. they require maintenance. They will all require thinning after 3-4 sharpenings.. it makes sense to learn how to care for them properly, or find someone to do it for you. TF's are great knives, with lots of potential, but they aren't for everyone. If you want something that looks machine-made, buy a shun. You have no business buying handmade and expecting perfection.


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## daddy yo yo

Forty Ounce said:


> Knives are still tools.. they require maintenance. They will all require thinning after 3-4 sharpenings.. it makes sense to learn how to care for them properly, or find someone to do it for you. TF's are great knives, with lots of potential, but they aren't for everyone. If you want something that looks machine-made, buy a shun. You have no business buying handmade and expecting perfection.


Sorry, but that’s bs (except your comment that knives are tools)! Many others out there prove that handmade can be perfect - even for much less than the price of a Denka. And the poor q control and poor f&f has nothing to do with maintenance and really isn’t for everyone. It sure is not for me! Enough said!


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## Forty Ounce

daddy yo yo said:


> Sorry, but that’s bs! Many others out there prove that handmade can be perfect - even for much less than the price of a Denka. And the poor q control and poor f&f has nothing to do with maintenance and really isn’t for everyone. It sure is not for me! Enough said!


Not enough said. I think you're wrong. I can take almost any knife on the market and point out spots where they cut corners. It sounds to me like you don't have the "eye"


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## daddy yo yo

Just like Ray Donovan says, „Sure“.


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## Alder26

I've never used a denka, but I've purchase multiple TF's and the only way to get a good one out of the box is to buy a Morihei hisamoto w/ "fine finish". Every single one that I've ever had that had TF kanji on it has had some of the most absurd problems I've ever seen. Warped edges, low spots that extend most of the blade, one had a spine that was ground so roughly that it actually had an edge that I cut myself on, some of them are bent.

The steel is really good, but Watanabe steel is also really good and when you buy a Watanabe you get a real knife meant to be used for years. If you want to use a TF beyond the first 3-4 edges you put on it, often times your going to probably end up sinking 15+ hours into fixing a knife that cost more than a Wat to begin with.


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## Corradobrit1

Alder26 said:


> I've never used a denka, but I've purchase multiple TF's and only way to get a good one out of the box is to buy a Morihei hisamoto w/ "fine finish".


Then wouldn't be a Denka. The Morihei has W#1 core and a 210 'fine finish' I received was bent with a weird edge/board contact. The only sure way to get a 'good' one is go to the shop in person and find it. That said these issues are less of a problem from what I can see nowadays. They are paying more attention and addressing the issues.


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## Corradobrit1

Forty Ounce said:


> Handle pics are #3 and #4



Wowzers, that whole package is da bomb


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## zizirex

Corradobrit1 said:


> Then wouldn't be a Denka. The Morihei has W#1 core and a 210 'fine finish' I received was bent with a weird edge/board contact. The only sure way to get a 'good' one is go to the shop in person and find it. That said these issues are less of a problem from what I can see nowadays. They are paying more attention and addressing the issues.


yes, this is on my next list. hopefully, I could get one before they increase the price.


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## Chicagohawkie

jacko9 said:


> I don't think so my T-F Nashiji is as good as W#1 gets - the rest of his line is just "chrome plated fluff". Perhaps a bit better edge retention but not worth the extra dollars in my opinion. Watanabe Pro KU Nakiri is great but his stainless clad blue#2 is nothing special.


100 percent right on the money!


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## Corradobrit1

The AS on my Denka blows away W#1. Its not even funny


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## RockyBasel

I was thinking king of getting a TF denka, but reading this, I wonder if I should. After buying the Denka for say $900, I need a TF tuner, and perhaps I need a TF “whisperer” too to make sure it realizes its potential. On top of that, I may have to light incense.

Or I could get a Watanabe Pro Gyuto - only hesitation is that I have 4 Toyoma Gyuto- 240 and 270 dama blue and 240 and 270 stainless clad blue. Will a Watanabe add anything even if I do get one, given all the Toyomanabe watanayoma hype. 

I almost gave into the TF denka curiosity, but then I need to hire an expert to finish the knife to make it what it should be. At the price you pay, that seems to be a hassle.

any TF whisperers out there?


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## Garm

RockyBasel said:


> any TF whisperers out there?


Kojiro Watanabe is a pretty well know TF whisperer and manages to coax out pretty great levels of performance from these blades.  .
On a little more serious note, if you're looking for perfectly even blade roads for thinning, then TF's probably aren't for you.
They forge and grind their knives in a way that makes this more difficult, and in many cases you would have to alter the grind to even it out. On the other hand, you will more than likely find some attributes that will appeal to you enough to offset the way these knives are made and finished. These attributes are also the result of how the knives were made and finished.

If people only bought TF knives for the steel, and everything else was truly a crapshoot, they'd be out of business years ago at those prices. I'm also always left curious when people describe a "good one" and what they mean by that. The most entertaining, but also the most perplexing, use I've seen was when someone mentioned his TF gyuto as a "sh!t performer, and I got one of the actual good ones". I just can't make sense of it.
The term lottery is thrown around a lot in these parts of the web. As it stands I'm a six-time in a row winner, which is by my standards of course, and my list of priorities may differ greatly from other members. Warped edges I've only ever seen with other makers, and low spots are IME on par with lots of other makers with somewhat comparable grinds and blade geometries, but here the blade finishes can actually either obscure or highlight them.


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## Corradobrit1

Garm said:


> if you're looking for perfectly even blade roads for thinning, then TF's probably aren't for you.


Or..... ask TF to thin it for you. Thats what i did


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## Corradobrit1

Garm said:


> Warped edges I've only ever seen with other makers, and low spots are IME on par with lots of other makers with somewhat comparable grinds and blade geometries, but here the blade finishes can actually either obscure or highlight them.


So true. I've had knives with holes in the edge due to overgrinds, wonky handle installs, bent blades etc and these were on $500+ knives.


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## RockyBasel

Garm said:


> Kojiro Watanabe is a pretty well know TF whisperer and manages to coax out pretty great levels of performance from these blades.  .
> On a little more serious note, if you're looking for perfectly even blade roads for thinning, then TF's probably aren't for you.
> They forge and grind their knives in a way that makes this more difficult, and in many cases you would have to alter the grind to even it out. On the other hand, you will more than likely find some attributes that will appeal to you enough to offset the way these knives are made and finished. These attributes are also the result of how the knives were made and finished.
> 
> If people only bought TF knives for the steel, and everything else was truly a crapshoot, they'd be out of business years ago at those prices. I'm also always left curious when people describe a "good one" and what they mean by that. The most entertaining, but also the most perplexing, use I've seen was when someone mentioned his TF gyuto as a "sh!t performer, and I got one of the actual good ones". I just can't make sense of it.
> The term lottery is thrown around a lot in these parts of the web. As it stands I'm a six-time in a row winner, which is by my standards of course, and my list of priorities may differ greatly from other members. Warped edges I've only ever seen with other makers, and low spots are IME on par with lots of other makers with somewhat comparable grinds and blade geometries, but here the blade finishes can actually either obscure or highlight them.



Thanks, most illuminating and I think you nailed it! Now I just need to get my confidence up to go out there and buy a Denka!


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## Forty Ounce

RockyBasel said:


> any TF whisperers out there?


Hi. I've done a few.


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## TSF415

Forty Ounce said:


> Hi. I've done a few.


It would be really great if you could post a pic. lol


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu

TSF415 said:


> It would be really great if you could post a pic. lol



He just did lol. scroll up


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## TSF415

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> He just did lol. scroll up



That was the joke. He also said he's worked on multiple TF's yet people keep asking if someone's out there.


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## jacko9

I have a T-F Nashiji and I know the difference between steels as far as edge retention. I think that if you have Toyama then a Watanabe Stainless Clad is the same knife as a lot of people here have mentioned over and over. If you want a solid performer take a look at a Konosuke Fujiyama blue steel. I have a b#2 210mm gyuto for a few years with a high bevel and a 240mm Gyuto b#2 FT grind. I know that the FT sharpener no longer does work for Konosuke but it is a great knife.


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## Alder26

Corradobrit1 said:


> Then wouldn't be a Denka. The Morihei has W#1 core and a 210 'fine finish' I received was bent with a weird edge/board contact. The only sure way to get a 'good' one is go to the shop in person and find it. That said these issues are less of a problem from what I can see nowadays. They are paying more attention and addressing the issues.


Most definitely I didn’t mean to imply that the Morihei knives have the AS steel, just referring to TF generally. And yes the hisamoto can still have problems but they do address a lot of the mistakes in the grind.

No maker has perfect knives, but the kind of mistakes that TF let’s out of the shop take tons of work to correct and are hard to justify the price tag for some people. That being said if you get a decent one and do the work they can be really good.


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## Corradobrit1

I think a lot of complaints are non issues. So long as the blades are straight, ground thin with no overgrinds affecting the edge you're good to go. Have them ease the spine and choil to remove roughness if a concern. And price is only outrageous for the 240+ sizes.

And TF is offering what they call the 'Nihonto finish'. Not sure what it costs but any advantage the fine finish Morihei offered (which by the way is no longer available) can be achieved inhouse.


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## Keith Sinclair

Agree a lot of complaints are non issues.

Both TF bought off BST. Mab gyuto & little 180 Nashiji got as upgrade for wife's Takamura R2. Liked the rough nashjji tall heel 50mm. Has a dark wood octagon handle. As a home blade I use it a lot too chopping up fresh herbs, ginger & garlic. Both TF are thicker up top not super thin at bottom like my Tanaka from K&S. The older Tanaka's were way more rough Nashiji and not as thin behind the edge. This did not make them bad cutters.
You can get the TF white 1 extremely sharp and it's edge retention above average. Good little knife, can chop chop without worry stinkin sharp edge what more can you ask for.


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## Qapla'

Corradobrit1 said:


> And TF is offering what they call the 'Nihonto finish'. Not sure what it costs but any advantage the fine finish Morihei offered (which by the way is no longer available) can be achieved inhouse.


What does that mean, though? A nihontô could be anything from a legendary art-piece to a to a mass-produced WW2-era item made of whatever railway-steel could be obtained.


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## Marek07

zizirex said:


> Hi, Any idea on how reactive is TF Nashiji line is? I'm thinking about their petty? in humid weather is it gonna be problematic or once the patina is on, nothing to be worried?


To answer your question - while ignoring all else in this thread - the nashijis I own have very low reactivity compared to all other white #1/shirogami knives I've tried. As @jacko9 pointed out, they're stainless clad and hold up very well in a domestic kitchen.


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## Corradobrit1

Qapla' said:


> What does that mean, though? A nihontô could be anything from a legendary art-piece to a to a mass-produced WW2-era item made of whatever railway-steel could be obtained.


Here's an example of TF's Nihonto finish. Its basically a blade road polish using Jnats ala Morihei fine finish. Nothing crazy but does help even out some grind inconsistencies.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu

@Corradobrit1 is that a Nashiji KU or Mab without hammer marks? I haven't seen either on their website. How much did the finish run you if you don't mind me asking?


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## Corradobrit1

Its an iron clad TF forged W#1 Nakiri. They make them for Morihei so wouldn't be on the official TF website. Paid about $180 shipped with upgraded handle for complete package and complimentary TF IV chiseled kanji.


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## RockyBasel

Forty Ounce said:


> Hi. I've done a few.


Then I need your help!


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## RockyBasel

Forum learned - need help on random question: 
Is Yu Kurosaki a master craftsman with the official designation of Dentou Kougeishi?

On going debate - I thought not, don’t consider him in the league of Doi, Togashi, Ikeda, etc. 

But I was informed that K&S posted something that showed Kurosaki is indeed a Dentou Kougeishi 

I was skeptical, but have been known to be wrong on occasion- this could be one of them

can someone please illuminate - is he or is he not


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## josemartinlopez

Forty Ounce said:


> Before you go and buy a TF.. watch this video and see how bad the low spots can be... TF is great, just like any other knife, if you put countless hours into fixing it.



I'm afraid I can't appreciate this video yet... could someone clue me in on what's being pointed out?

@RockyBasel, I resurrected this thread as a joke but good luck, it's a pleasure following your collection.


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## RockyBasel

I am glad you resurrected, there have been great discussions as a result - and lots of interesting findings - keep resurrecting!


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## parbaked

RockyBasel said:


> Is Yu Kurosaki a master craftsman with the official designation of Dentou Kougeishi?
> On going debate - I thought not, don’t consider him in the league of Doi, Togashi, Ikeda, etc.



Takefu is not Sakai, so he doesn't have to be in the same league...


----------



## Twigg

RockyBasel said:


> Forum learned - need help on random question:
> Is Yu Kurosaki a master craftsman with the official designation of Dentou Kougeishi?
> 
> On going debate - I thought not, don’t consider him in the league of Doi, Togashi, Ikeda, etc.
> 
> But I was informed that K&S posted something that showed Kurosaki is indeed a Dentou Kougeishi
> 
> I was skeptical, but have been known to be wrong on occasion- this could be one of them
> 
> can someone please illuminate - is he or is he not


Yes he has the designation. He got it the same time as Nao Yamamoto. K&S does have a write up regarding it and Kurosaki's other awards.


----------



## RockyBasel

I think we have some conflicting opinions on this


----------



## Twigg

He has the designation of Dentokougeishi. I'm not making any judgement on wethether or not he is in the same league as Doi or Ikeda though.

Perhaps @pkjames can provide more information


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu

josemartinlopez said:


> I'm afraid I can't appreciate this video yet... could someone clue me in on what's being pointed out?
> 
> @RockyBasel, I resurrected this thread as a joke but good luck, it's a pleasure following your collection.



If you look at the "blade road," which is the sliver band that has been ground away to create a primary bevel, you will see that it has been polished unevenly. Ideally, the entirety of the blade road would be even (flat, convex or concave - but even). But when an uneven blade road is polished against a flat stone the high spots will make contact and get a matte polish while the low spots will remain untouched. That knife has many unpolished dips, showing an inconsistent grind.

Edited for clarity


----------



## zizirex

Marek07 said:


> To answer your question - while ignoring all else in this thread - the nashijis I own have very low reactivity compared to all other white #1/shirogami knives I've tried. As @jacko9 pointed out, they're stainless clad and hold up very well in a domestic kitchen.


thanks, I might consider this knife for my other home's petty.


----------



## josemartinlopez

Heh you may not want to talk about your “other home” in a public forum.


----------



## zizirex

RockyBasel said:


> Forum learned - need help on random question:
> Is Yu Kurosaki a master craftsman with the official designation of Dentou Kougeishi?
> 
> On going debate - I thought not, don’t consider him in the league of Doi, Togashi, Ikeda, etc.
> 
> But I was informed that K&S posted something that showed Kurosaki is indeed a Dentou Kougeishi
> 
> I was skeptical, but have been known to be wrong on occasion- this could be one of them
> 
> can someone please illuminate - is he or is he not


He is a Dentou Kougeishi, his older brother also got the certification as well recently.
Lots of blacksmith have DentouKougeishi, but the problem is, the knife that you get from those Brand, is usually was not made by him personally and probably made by his apprentice.
Yu Kurosaki doesn't make his knife anymore I guess, because he's always travelling last year.


----------



## RockyBasel

zizirex said:


> He is a Dentou Kougeishi, his older brother also got the certification as well recently.
> Lots of blacksmith have DentouKougeishi, but the problem is, the knife that you get from those Brand, is usually was not made by him personally and probably made by his apprentice.
> Yu Kurosaki doesn't make his knife anymore I guess, because he's always travelling last year.


Very helpful and makes sense. The very young apprentices are on his website. This also begs the natural question, does Watanabe make his own knives or are they farmed out or given to junior apprentice


----------



## Carl Kotte

RockyBasel said:


> Very helpful and makes sense. The very young apprentices are on his website. This also begs the natural question, does Watanabe make his own knives or are they farmed out or given to junior apprentice


Please don’t go there!  Use the search function to see the endless discussions about Watanabe (and speculation about who make the knives) before you open this can of worms!


----------



## RockyBasel

Carl Kotte said:


> Please don’t go there!  Use the search function to see the endless discussions about Watanabe (and speculation about who make the knives) before you open this can of worms!


Agree, let’s leave that stone unturned as enough fodder on that already


----------



## josemartinlopez

@Carl Kotte, I bumped this thread precisely so @RockyBasel wouldn't have to search further!


----------



## Carl Kotte

josemartinlopez said:


> @Carl Kotte, I bumped this thread precisely so @RockyBasel wouldn't have to search further!


Well, that’s a bad reason to bump a thread. All you’ll get is more of the same, most likely. It’s not as if the search function will bite and reading a little will blind anyone (if that were so, new answers wouldn’t be better than older ones).


----------



## josemartinlopez

I was kidding and that wasn't the real reason.


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## RockyBasel

josemartinlopez said:


> @Carl Kotte, I bumped this thread precisely so @RockyBasel wouldn't have to search further!



I stand corrected on the kurosaki dentoukougeishi certification! But I feel that my curiosity about his more “mass produced” knives and quality have been addressed in the forum adequately. As noted, he seems to be flying everywhere and yet has so many series of knives being produced at the same time.


----------



## EShin

Quite the opposite from TF who doesn't ever leave his workshop and uses his apprentices for writing mails, it seems... 

@RockyBasel, why don't you go to japanische-kochmesser store and try the knives to see if you like them and if there's a model that's worth your money?
I do own a Denka and to me, there's no other knife that has as much feedback, that feels so "alive"... Too bad the prices increased so much in recent years because I'd like to back it up with a second one haha.


----------



## RockyBasel

EShin said:


> Quite the opposite from TF who doesn't ever leave his workshop and uses his apprentices for writing mails, it seems...
> 
> @RockyBasel, why don't you go to japanische-kochmesser store and try the knives to see if you like them and if there's a model that's worth your money?
> I do own a Denka and to me, there's no other knife that has as much feedback, that feels so "alive"... Too bad the prices increased so much in recent years because I'd like to back it up with a second one haha.


Great idea. I have bought many knives there, and so I know Marco - he also offered to give me some stone use tips as well. So excellent suggestion, and I think this is the best idea. I have a trip planned to Zürich to check out this cool bike shop. And will add this to the trip.


----------



## RockyBasel

Journey to TF denka

I cannot think of I could have been buying good Japanese knives without the benefit of this forum and the immense wisdom contained in these here threads. Of course, the other way is to travel through japan, with guide, visiting knife artisans and villages, as some on this forum have done

my decision to buy a Denka in the next week or so (when I can drive over to Kochsmesser in Zurich) has seen me evolve through 4 phases of knife purchasing since i joined the forum:

phase O - pre-forum
did not know what I liked, thought blue paper was blue paper

did some basic research and bought what was promoted on japanny:
3 Takeshi Saji knives, first one was a 300mm Gyuto - living in DC then, had bigger is better mentality. This was 12 years ago


----------



## RockyBasel

12 years go by, no new purchases. Interest re-kindled after trip to Japan Oct last year. Covid strikes, stuck at home, without my weekly work-related trips to London, Paris, NYC, and Copenhagen.

Bored out of my mind, and Joined forum. And realized I am ignorant (still am compared to most folks on the forum). After reading countless threads was massively confused and did Not know what to buy:

phase I - the takefu knife village phase
Bought Kurosaki, Yoshimi Kato, etc. then I read more, learnt more, watched videos on steel manufacturing from IIT professors to understand heat treatment, and trade-offs and optimization of steel properties. I moved away from takefu.


Sort of entered a laserish, but not really phase - Konosuke, Masamoto KS, kei kobayashi (closest to laser), and Ashi

phase 2 - kept reading, several themes were emerging especially around the importance of steel, grinds, geometry, and heat treatment - especially how master craftsman can just get more performance and how some keep these skills trade secrets. So got more interested in artisanal knife making and shifted to Toyoma, Heiji, Watanabe


----------



## RockyBasel

Phase 3 - swordsman phase 
Liked the feel of heavier knives, and into more eccentric and unique approaches: Jiro, Mazaki and some old actual
Japanese swordssmiths making 300 gm gyuto.


----------



## RockyBasel

Phase 4 - the collective approach to knife making - the forger, the sharpener - from Sanjo to Sakai

best expression is Togashi-tosa combo, and perhaps the purest is in Aogami steel: see two Togashi-Tosa examples below, one stainless clad Aogami and one soft iron clad - purest expression:


----------



## RockyBasel

And now, it’s Denka! Not sure what the Denka phase will bring. I traversed these 4 phases between May (when I joined the forum) to now, spending an ungodly amounts of money on all these knives. Rushing, getting to the door so my wife won’t know DHL was here. Hiding packages in the basement, etc. but Covid gave me the time to read these forums,
Research, and learn, and as I learnt more from Calgary, lemeneid, and all these other experts, I changed and evolved in my buying phases - all in the last 2.5 months. Thank you Forum!


----------



## RockyBasel

Calgary was Valgard autocorrected!


----------



## demirtasem

RockyBasel said:


> And now, it’s Denka! Not sure what the Denka phase will bring. I traversed these 4 phases between May (when I joined the forum) to now, spending an ungodly amounts of money on all these knives. Rushing, getting to the door so my wife won’t know DHL was here. Hiding packages in the basement, etc. but Covid gave me the time to read these forums,
> Research, and learn, and as I learnt more from Calgary, lemeneid, and all these other experts, I changed and evolved in my buying phases - all in the last 2.5 months. Thank you Forum!




Very fun to read your entries. Hope you enjoy your new Denka! Would like to hear more about the process of your order. I'm also close to order my Denka soon.


----------



## lemeneid

Enjoy your Denka


----------



## josemartinlopez

Amazing posts @RockyBasel. Your PMs telling me to buy honyakis still scare me


----------



## josemartinlopez

Another stupid question. For lack of a better way of asking it, why do TF Denkas seem to show up less in people's collections than implied by the number of questions about how to play the TF Denka order roulette?

For example, I got the impression that TF Denkas appear less frequently on BST. Presumably, the owners of TF Denkas like them and rarely sell them. (That, or less people have tried buying TF Denkas because the old reports of the order roulette are intimidating, even though @lemeneid says current fit and finish has improved dramatically.)

I also got the impression that if you look at people's personal galleries or the newest knife buy thread, you also see less TF Denkas. Not sure if Denkas are familiar enough that people just focus on newer or rarer knives.

If you look at the "You can only keep 3 knives" thread, TF Denkas are not mentioned as much as you'd think. Again, maybe people would rather cite their customs if asked that question and maybe TF Denka is too familiar an answer.

Just honestly thinking out loud in case anyone has a comment.

Another question, is it right that TF pioneered stainless cladding on carbon knives years ago?


----------



## ian

josemartinlopez said:


> Another stupid question. For lack of a better way of asking it, why do TF Denkas seem to show up less in people's collections than implied by the number of questions about how to play the TF Denka order roulette?
> 
> For example, I got the impression that TF Denkas appear less frequently on BST. Presumably, the owners of TF Denkas like them and rarely sell them. (That, or less people have tried buying TF Denkas because the old reports of the order roulette are intimidating, even though @lemeneid says current fit and finish has improved dramatically.)
> 
> I also got the impression that if you look at people's personal galleries or the newest knife buy thread, you also see less TF Denkas. Not sure if Denkas are familiar enough that people just focus on newer or rarer knives.
> 
> If you look at the "You can only keep 3 knives" thread, TF Denkas are not mentioned as much as you'd think. Again, maybe people would rather cite their customs if asked that question and maybe TF Denka is too familiar an answer.
> 
> Just honestly thinking out loud in case anyone has a comment.
> 
> Another question, is it right that TF pioneered stainless cladding on carbon knives years ago?



Maybe because TF Denkas are freakin expensive? That’s why I don’t own one...


----------



## DitmasPork

josemartinlopez said:


> Another stupid question. For lack of a better way of asking it, why do TF Denkas seem to show up less in people's collections than implied by the number of questions about how to play the TF Denka order roulette?
> 
> For example, I got the impression that TF Denkas appear less frequently on BST. Presumably, the owners of TF Denkas like them and rarely sell them. (That, or less people have tried buying TF Denkas because the old reports of the order roulette are intimidating, even though @lemeneid says current fit and finish has improved dramatically.)
> 
> I also got the impression that if you look at people's personal galleries or the newest knife buy thread, you also see less TF Denkas. Not sure if Denkas are familiar enough that people just focus on newer or rarer knives.
> 
> If you look at the "You can only keep 3 knives" thread, TF Denkas are not mentioned as much as you'd think. Again, maybe people would rather cite their customs if asked that question and maybe TF Denka is too familiar an answer.
> 
> Just honestly thinking out loud in case anyone has a comment.
> 
> Another question, is it right that TF pioneered stainless cladding on carbon knives years ago?



Firstly, no question is stupid!

However, when you say, "...why do TF Denkas seem to show up less in *people's* collections..." and "...TF Denkas appear less frequently on BST....". Who do you refer to when you say "people's"?

Using KKF BST and KKF threads is an inherently flawed methodology to conclude that TFs are not in many peoples collections. KKF members represent a rather small % of total TF customers, not a terribly diverse sampling of kitchen knife users, limited to mainly English speaking knife enthusiasts.

A brand of knife not regularly appearing on BST doesn't mean much.

That said, pretty much all the *serious J-knife enthusiasts (home cooks, pro cooks, collectors, etc.) I personally know have owned a TF—more than half of them aren't members of KKF. Some loved and kept them, others hated them and moved their TFs onto others—my Denka is a keeper.
['Serious' a term I use loosely here, but meaning friends of mine that regularly buy more than 5 J-knives a year in the +$400 range, etc.]

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## josemartinlopez

OK. Good answer.


----------



## DitmasPork

josemartinlopez said:


> OK. Good answer.


TF Denkas aren't everyone's cup of tea, but the people I know that have kept denkas are generally quite passionate about them—almost cult following. TFTFTFTF!


----------



## DitmasPork

@josemartinlopez Do you regularly look through the 'Show Us Your Newest Knife' thread? All 'good' knives—no one's gonna post a knife that sucks.


----------



## josemartinlopez

Waiting for the @ma_sha1 ”tuned up” Shigefusa Nakiri.


----------



## DitmasPork

josemartinlopez said:


> Waiting for the @ma_sha1 ”tuned up” Shigefusa Nakiri.


Want to see @ma_sha1 give a nose job and liposuction to a TF Denka. Do it!!!! #justatool


----------



## zizirex

DitmasPork said:


> TF Denkas aren't everyone's cup of tea, but the people I know that have kept denkas are generally quite passionate about them—almost cult following. TFTFTFTF!


it's the Cult that is worth following... TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF


----------



## M1k3

WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF


----------



## Garm

M1k3 said:


> WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF


-Who's Teruyasu Fujiwara?
-Watanabe, Teruyasu Fujiwara?
-Went to France?
-Who The **** Would Travel Further With Train For Work Than Fort Worth Texas Fellas?
-Wine, Tobacco and Fornication Will Transform Fridays?


----------



## M1k3

Garm said:


> -Who's Teruyasu Fujiwara?
> -Watanabe, Teruyasu Fujiwara?
> -Went to France?
> -Who The **** Would Travel Further With Train For Work Than Fort Worth Texas Fellas?
> -Wine, Tobacco and Fornication Will Transform Fridays?


----------



## daveb

We have Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms - not just a Govt agency but also a weekend shopping list.


----------



## jacko9

Since I only have a TF Nashiji Gyuto and Petty I have to say Watanabe Pro both my 180 Nakiri and my 240 Stainless clad B#2 Gyuto


----------



## demirtasem

I ordered a 210mm Denka two days ago. Talked with Gaku. About the overgrinding issues he admit it happened before, but now he said young generation (himself too), working extra carefully. I didn’t know Gaku also do grindings.


Edit: Sorry I thought this is the other TF thread, I wasn't careful.


----------



## lemeneid

Garm said:


> -Watanabe, Teruyasu Fujiwara?


Interestingly TF’s real name is actually Watanabe


----------



## josemartinlopez

Wait he told me it was Toyama.


----------



## zizirex

We all know that his real name is Mazaki.


----------



## tchan001

M1k3 said:


> WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF


Someone really Wants TF badly.


----------



## MarcelNL

I must admit (almost feels like a confession) that I'm in the same category as OP, cry once purchases.
Contemplating buying a TF Denka given that a Shig Gyoto is unobtanium. It can be scary to start near the top equipment wise, I probably will also buy a cheap knife to mess up sharpening (my 165mm Hinoura Nak and 165 mm Shig Santoku I can manage by now but something longer will be a new challenge). Biggest issue for now is deciding size should I buy one; 210 or 240.


----------



## juice

MarcelNL said:


> Contemplating buying a TF Denka given that a Shig Gyoto is unobtanium


I know someone who can make you one... Paging @ma_sha1


----------



## MarcelNL

LOL, but now I want one with a beige lion Kanji...


----------



## juice

MarcelNL said:


> LOL, but now I want one with a beige lion Kanji...


I'm afraid that's contractually impossible...


----------



## MarcelNL

you also work for my Internet Provider? trying to get them to reconnect my new home....they messed up the appt and are now trying to make me wait another week...


----------



## M1k3

View attachment 92155



MarcelNL said:


> you also work for my Internet Provider? trying to get them to reconnect my new home....they messed up the appt and are now trying to make me wait another week...


Spectrum? I bet the ISP is Spectrum.


----------



## EShin

MarcelNL said:


> I must admit (almost feels like a confession) that I'm in the same category as OP, cry once purchases.
> Contemplating buying a TF Denka given that a Shig Gyoto is unobtanium. It can be scary to start near the top equipment wise, I probably will also buy a cheap knife to mess up sharpening (my 165mm Hinoura Nak and 165 mm Shig Santoku I can manage by now but something longer will be a new challenge). Biggest issue for now is deciding size should I buy one; 210 or 240.


Seems like you're in quite a different position than the OP to me since you already have two marvellous knives and are able to sharpen. Speaking of which, if you're fine with those two knives, sharpening a Denka should pose no big problems. A bit longer, yes, but the basics don't really change.
As for the size: The most important thing to consider is the space available. You really don't want the tip of your knife to constantly hit other things. Also, what do you plan on using it for most often, how large are the things you usually cut? 210mm already provides a huge advantage over a 165mm Santoku and is enough for most home uses, but of course a longer blade can be handy. A further point could be that in case of the 240, you might reach for a smaller knife more often than if you have a 210, which could replace your Santoku almost completely.


----------



## MarcelNL

Fair points EShin! And thanks for the reassurance on sharpening, I confess it is a bit of a scare thinking about tackling a knife in this class!

I'm not sure if a 240 is needed, I now need a larger knife than the 165 Shig frequently but was used to a 210 Global (I know) that I have not touched since I got the Shig, my issue is being afraid of losing out yet thinking sense I probably won't need a 240 as meal prep for serious cooking is usually for 2 but 5 max with the occasional 7-8 so no large quantities of anything. As to what, I cook various styles of food and usually buy meat butchered, fish I tend to prep myself as I cannot stand fish that is not fresh anymore and want to see and touch it.


----------



## MarcelNL

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 92155
> 
> 
> Spectrum? I bet the ISP is Spectrum.



it is not, yet I doubt they could be any worse than our prior national pride KPN is at customer service...I basically got the Little Britain 'computer says no....' and cough in my face included for free.


----------



## parbaked

MarcelNL said:


> Biggest issue for now is deciding size should I buy one; 210 or 240.



There is a silly price jump between TF 210mm and 240mm knives. 
The 195mm - 210mm gyutos are better value...


----------



## M1k3

MarcelNL said:


> it is not, yet I doubt they could be any worse than our prior national pride KPN is at customer service...I basically got the Little Britain 'computer says no....' and cough in my face included for free.


Sounds like they might be apart of Frontier. That one is freaking awful!!


----------



## Corradobrit1

parbaked said:


> There is a silly price jump between TF 210mm and 240mm knives.
> The 195mm - 210mm gyutos are better value...


Makes the choice real easy


----------



## MarcelNL

parbaked said:


> There is a silly price jump between TF 210mm and 240mm knives.
> The 195mm - 210mm gyutos are better value...


I noticed and because of that my mind says to go with 210 but my ego wants the 240 ;-)

Expect that the mind will win ;-)


----------



## Corradobrit1

M1k3 said:


> Sounds like they might be apart of Frontier. That one is freaking awful!!


Hey, I'll hear nothing bad about Frontier FIOS. They are easily the least bad of a really bad bunch. Never down and reliable speeds. Been with Verizon then Frontier FIOS for 15 years.


----------



## parbaked

MarcelNL said:


> I noticed and because of that my mind says to go with 210 but my ego wants the 240 ;-)



I have a 180mm if that helps your ego...


----------



## DitmasPork

MarcelNL said:


> I noticed and because of that my mind says to go with 210 but my ego wants the 240 ;-)
> 
> Expect that the mind will win ;-)



Yeah, huge price jump. But I passionately feel that one should get the knife they want, even if paying over the odds. Why save money just to end up with a size that's not preferable? It's like, I often see sales on Le Creuset in butt-ugly colors, I'd rather pay normal price for the color I want.


----------



## M1k3

Corradobrit1 said:


> Hey, I'll hear nothing bad about Frontier FIOS. They are easily the least bad of a really bad bunch. Never down and reliable speeds. Been with Verizon then Frontier FIOS for 15 years.


Sure, the network that was Verizon's is good. But Frontier customer service is horrible! Told me FiOS wasn't available at my house even though the previous tenants left everything, including the modem/router....


----------



## esoo

parbaked said:


> I have a 180mm if that helps your ego...



That's what sea said?


----------



## M1k3

esoo said:


> That's what sea he said?


----------



## jacko9

MarcelNL said:


> I must admit (almost feels like a confession) that I'm in the same category as OP, cry once purchases.
> Contemplating buying a TF Denka given that a Shig Gyoto is unobtanium. It can be scary to start near the top equipment wise, I probably will also buy a cheap knife to mess up sharpening (my 165mm Hinoura Nak and 165 mm Shig Santoku I can manage by now but something longer will be a new challenge). Biggest issue for now is deciding size should I buy one; 210 or 240.



I recently purchased from Knifewear a Shigefusa 240mm Guyto and the bottom line is that it was $120 cheaper than a TF 240mm Denka. So Shigefusa is still available (not so often) and still cheaper than buying a TF Denka directly from the source.


----------



## zizirex

jacko9 said:


> I recently purchased from Knifewear a Shigefusa 240mm Guyto and the bottom line is that it was $120 cheaper than a TF 240mm Denka. So Shigefusa is still available (not so often) and still cheaper than buying a TF Denka directly from the source.


But..... It's Not TF LOL. 
Lucky you got it for that price, Other vendors would probably jack up the price up to 150%.


----------



## M1k3

Garm said:


> -Who's Teruyasu Fujiwara?
> -Watanabe, Teruyasu Fujiwara?
> -Went to France?
> -Who The **** Would Travel Further With Train For Work Than Fort Worth Texas Fellas?
> -Wine, Tobacco and Fornication Will Transform Fridays?


Why The Face


----------



## ian

DitmasPork said:


> Yeah, huge price jump. But I passionately feel that one should get the knife they want, even if paying over the odds. Why save money just to end up with a size that's not preferable? It's like, I often see sales on Le Creuset in butt-ugly colors, I'd rather pay normal price for the color I want.



A knife is for 4 months. Money is forever.


----------



## RockyBasel

MarcelNL said:


> I must admit (almost feels like a confession) that I'm in the same category as OP, cry once purchases.
> Contemplating buying a TF Denka given that a Shig Gyoto is unobtanium. It can be scary to start near the top equipment wise, I probably will also buy a cheap knife to mess up sharpening (my 165mm Hinoura Nak and 165 mm Shig Santoku I can manage by now but something longer will be a new challenge). Biggest issue for now is deciding size should I buy one; 210 or 240.



So, was ready to pull trigger on Denka, but then saw unobtanium online and pulled trigger impulsively and spent 1,400K how stupid is that. I could have saved a few hundred bucks and for a 245mm Denka. But it was an impulse purchase as I knew the unobtanium would evaporate in seconds so I acted

It’s not what I wanted, prefer a 240, but ordered the 210 unobtanium anyway. It took me a full 3 months to land it. Will post pics when it lands next week

Now, that Denka...for budget reasons and sake of wife going nuts, I may have to push to next month 

But I saw this 270mm Heiji Gyuto looking at me and it looked mighty fine - tempted, but I have 2 Heiji Gyuto’s already, each 250 mm. But sadly I still want the 270. I guess Denka any day over Heiji right? Clearly, that is the right answer


----------



## Corradobrit1

RockyBasel said:


> 210 unobtanium


Such a tease


----------



## daveb

If one knife is the answer, you've asked the wrong question.


----------



## josemartinlopez

Congrats on getting that one @RockyBasel! Beautiful unobtainium!


----------



## josemartinlopez

Why is the TF Denka 165mm 200g but the 195mm is 330g? Is this a typo?









Japanese Knives | Japanese Knives | TERUYASU FUJIWARA


Nakiri knife [Denka]. We deliver our products Free Worldwide Shipping! Established a company as a Japanese sword manufacturer 140 years ago. We can not provide an opportunity to appreciate how sharp and splendid the traditional swords are directly, however, we make sure how good they are by...




www.teruyasu.net


----------



## tchan001

RockyBasel said:


> spent 1,400K


Wow, what did you buy? Even the Pegasus Kramer is only 50K.








Pegasus 10" Chef's Knife - Kramer Knives


Inspired by MC Escher’s Pegasus (No. 105) – 1959 We have pushed the boundaries of traditional bladesmithing to bring you our interpretation of a tessellation in steel while demonstrating the limits of forge welding to date. Escher’s mathematical inspired style has always captured our attention...



kramerknives.com


----------



## josemartinlopez

I'll PM you @tchan001


----------



## Jville

Yeah @RockyBasel spill it, what did you buy?


----------



## lemeneid

DitmasPork said:


> Yeah, huge price jump. But I passionately feel that one should get the knife they want, even if paying over the odds. Why save money just to end up with a size that's not preferable? It's like, I often see sales on Le Creuset in butt-ugly colors, I'd rather pay normal price for the color I want.


Totally agree with this. But I also have a butt ugly Le Creuset Dutch oven so


----------



## MarcelNL

tchan001 said:


> Wow, what did you buy? Even the Pegasus Kramer is only 50K.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pegasus 10" Chef's Knife - Kramer Knives
> 
> 
> Inspired by MC Escher’s Pegasus (No. 105) – 1959 We have pushed the boundaries of traditional bladesmithing to bring you our interpretation of a tessellation in steel while demonstrating the limits of forge welding to date. Escher’s mathematical inspired style has always captured our attention...
> 
> 
> 
> kramerknives.com



should Kramer make an Esscher "liberation' inspired Gyoto I might be tempted to buy a knife based on looks, until then I'go for feel. (edit; read it's engraved, isn't that cheating ;-) )

Should Shig's really be available I'll likely go for that, so far I haven't seen them for sale other than on pictures and one I missed by a millisecond on BST here.

THat said, I can also see a future with more than 3 knives, I recently saw Markin's knives and quite like those but probably for a later stage as custom (if at all) but a 210 Shig OR TF Denka will do me fine for now.
I started out with the Hinoura Nakiri, using it together with my previous knife, I never looked at that knife again...bought my Shig Santoku in a 'blind' comparison including testing all Shig Santoku's on stock after I picked that knife and it simply jumped out of the crowd. Would LOVE to be able to do the same with the next buy, but alas, where do I find a place where I can fondle the contenders for an hour of two to make a choice....I mean I'd drive long distance for the opportunity as it seems dumb to have to buy and then test to sell it off to buy another one...


----------



## EShin

DitmasPork said:


> Yeah, huge price jump. But I passionately feel that one should get the knife they want, even if paying over the odds. Why save money just to end up with a size that's not preferable? It's like, I often see sales on Le Creuset in butt-ugly colors, I'd rather pay normal price for the color I want.


fully agree - if you want to get "the ultimate" knife and not just another knife, then the prize shouldn't be the deciding factor to go for a 210 instead of a 240 cause sooner or later, cause then it won't be the "ultimate" knife... 
@MarcelNL seems like sooner or later you might get a Shigefusa 240? But yeah, trying different models before buying will most likely be impossible in the case of Shig gyutos. Could however be possible in the case of TF...


----------



## MarcelNL

I'mnot sure I need a 240, I guess 210 or 240 I can easily test with almost any knife and go with that. Until now I had a 210, which suited me fine for home cooking, a couple of times I felt I needed a bigger knife but I think I can do with a 210...not having used a 240 ever it may just be fear of missing out that makes me wonder ;-)

I will be able to test drive the Nashiji TF 210 and 240, so I should know more soon, and , there is no rush unless that unobtanium offer for a 210 and a 240 Shig arrives.


----------



## juice

DitmasPork said:


> Firstly, no question is stupid!


I'd contend that this is in no way true, and suggest a quick read of any forum for proof.


----------



## spaceconvoy

case in point: asking a woman you've just met, "are you pregnant?"


----------



## josemartinlopez

I suspect that's not always a stupid question but I won't go into details.


----------



## juice

spaceconvoy said:


> case in point: asking a woman you've just met, "are you pregnant?"


My rule on that one is to NEVER ask a woman if she is pregnant, even if you observe her birthing a baby at that very time.

I mean, seriously, *** would anyone ever ask? Either they tell you or they don't. WHY???????


----------



## spaceconvoy

josemartinlopez said:


> I suspect that's not always a stupid question but I won't go into details.


maybe if you're carnival ride operator, bungee jumping instructor, or ethical drug dealer


----------



## MarcelNL

spaceconvoy said:


> case in point: asking a woman you've just met, "are you pregnant?"



totally OT, ...I can do that one better; Visiting a site with a female co-worker who is a 'bit fuller', the guy we were visiting was going out of his way to accomodate us and urged her to sit down 'in her condition'. When we meet he still apologizes for that screw up, now easily 10 years ago.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Illuminati confirmed: TF Company is owned by Watanabe




"In 2019 the family business Fujiwara Teruyasu exactly 150 years, now consists of President Kojiro san at the helm, another 4 e generation of master blacksmiths."

Excerpt taken from hamono.nl (with english translate.)
While Watanabe is a common family name, seems like this actually might be the same Watanabe family of Watanabe blade.

Thread title should be changed to TF is Watanabe.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Same yet so different


----------



## labor of love

What else aren’t they telling us?


----------



## Carl Kotte

labor of love said:


> What else aren’t they telling us?


That white and blue steel are in fact identical


----------



## M1k3

Carl Kotte said:


> That white and blue steel are in fact identical


What about AS? Unsubstantiated rumor is it's a magical steel that's tougher AND more wear resistant than White steel. At least when produced by a certain Watanabe subsidiary.


----------



## labor of love

Carl Kotte said:


> That white and blue steel are in fact identical


----------



## EShin

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> While Watanabe is a common family name, seems like this actually might be the same Watanabe family of Watanabe blade.
> 
> Thread title should be changed to TF is Watanabe.


Both also use the same Characters for their family name, "渡辺". So yes, TF is Watanabe and always has been (the company has been run by the same Watanabe family since the beginning).  Toyanabe Fujiwara?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

EShin said:


> Both also use the same Characters for their family name, "渡辺". So yes, TF is Watanabe and always has been (the company has been run by the same Watanabe family since the beginning).  Toyanabe Fujiwara?



What is this now - Takefujiwara Village 2?

My life is a lie. I am going to cancel my order. No Toyama, No Wat, and now no TF.

Theatrical overreaction aside, I am aware that there are many incestuous setups in the Japanese knife making world. I just don't like it, and wish things were a bit more aboveboard. It feels anti-small scale craftsman and more conglomerate business to me.


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## Carl Kotte

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> What is this now - Takefujiwara Village 2?
> 
> My life is a lie. I am going to cancel my order. No Toyama, No Wat, and now no TF.
> 
> Theatrical overreaction aside, I am aware that there are many incestuous setups in the Japanese knife making world. I just don't like it, and wish things were a bit more aboveboard. It feels anti-small scale craftsman and more conglomerate business to me.


Learn to love it!


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## EShin

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Theatrical overreaction aside, I am aware that there are many incestuous setups in the Japanese knife making world. I just don't like it, and wish things were a bit more aboveboard. It feels anti-small scale craftsman and more conglomerate business to me.


there are many incestuous setups in the Japanese knife making world. The knife making business is small so it's very obvious. However, different from centralised institutions, there's many different traditions located all across the country, so it's not all bad.


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## M1k3

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> What is this now - Takefujiwara Village 2?


Lord Mazaki-bot is not pleased.


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## tchan001

Don't tell me later on that Mazaki is also a secret Watanabe who infiltrated Kato.


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## juice

tchan001 said:


> Don't tell me later on that Mazaki is also a secret Watanabe who infiltrated Kato.


TBH, that seems WAY too straightforward.


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## lemeneid

Yup that right. 

So Mazaki makes Toyama knives makes Watanabe knives makes TF knives.

All hail the Mazaki Dammy


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## lemeneid

On a serious note, it’s been well known that that isn’t his real name. Just as Yoshiaki Fujiwara isn’t Kato’s name. But I think I heard somewhere that’s his master’s name.

Anyway Watanabe is a common name in Japan, almost like Smith is across the pond.


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## MarcelNL

What is the fuzz? I'd think it;s more important who hammers out the blade or supervises that process. Having craftsman also being businessmen is often a recipe for failure, does anyone think TF is not the blacksmith behind the brand?

Shigefusa is also 'just' a front end, I don't care if they suddenly write *&(^&^$ on the blade as long as it;s made by Lizuka san and his sons.


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## lemeneid

MarcelNL said:


> What is the fuzz? I'd think it;s more important who hammers out the blade or supervises that process. Having craftsman also being businessmen is often a recipe for failure, does anyone think TF is not the blacksmith behind the brand?
> 
> Shigefusa is also 'just' a front end, I don't care if they suddenly write *&(^&^$ on the blade as long as it;s made by Lizuka san and his sons.


Not true, there are craftsman who are businessmen and make great knives. Ashi and Shiraki being prime examples.


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## Alder26

lemeneid said:


> On a serious note, it’s been well known that that isn’t his real name. Just as Yoshiaki Fujiwara isn’t Kato’s name. But I think I heard somewhere that’s his master’s name.
> 
> Anyway Watanabe is a common name in Japan, almost like Smith is across the pond.



I don't know any mother that would name their child "Horse wagon-horse"


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## Corradobrit1

Not uncommon. I vaguely remember being told TF is not actually called TF. Like Kiyoshi Kato is not Yoshiaki Fujiwara. Do the Japanese even have a tradition of naming their son's after their father's eg Teruyasu Fujiwara Jr. Never understood the ego someone must have to name their kids after themselves.


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## MarcelNL

lemeneid said:


> Not true, there are craftsman who are businessmen and make great knives. Ashi and Shiraki being prime examples.


Often does not exclude the cases where it does work ;-) I was merely trying to say that there are plenty craftsmen who are no great businessmen and happily hand that part over to someone else.


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## bbrooks008

Pretty sure it's a different Watanabe. Another user posted a while back about a conversation with TF, who confirmed the same.


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## Sergey Yakunin

What a mess.


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## juice

Corradobrit1 said:


> Never understood the ego someone must have to name their kids after themselves.


Ego/lack of imagination, yeah. Cracks me up.


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## simar

Maybe numbers are easier if they difficulty in remembering names


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## daveb

My Watanabe makes great performers AND great lookers.

Can't be the same guy.


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## juice

daveb said:


> My Watanabe


Oooh, Mr Fancy over there has his own Watanabe.


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## M1k3

juice said:


> Oooh, Mr Fancy over there has his own Watanabe.


@alterwisser has a Paella Lady. Super fancy.


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## RockyBasel

Jville said:


> Yeah @RockyBasel spill it, what did you buy?


late Response, but i Was able to land a 210 Shig Kitaeji from JNS. Since then, got two more Shigs! But not kitaeji, kasumi.


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## MarcelNL

RockyBasel said:


> late Response, but i Was able to land a 210 Shig Kitaeji from JNS. Since then, got two more Shigs! But not kitaeji, kasumi.



How did you do that, what the F am I doing wrong to miss those on JNS ( or were they from various sources)?
I used to be subscribed to his email notification for Shig and Kato, wich never amounted to anything, now I recently subscribed to his newsletter AND I'm following his site on a daily basis....ZIP


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## MarcelNL

juice said:


> Ego/lack of imagination, yeah. Cracks me up.


I believe it used to be something to track lineage, prevent inbreeding etc...nowadays, lack of imagination is more likely


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## RockyBasel

MarcelNL said:


> How did you do that, what the F am I doing wrong to miss those on JNS ( or were they from various sources)?
> I used to be subscribed to his email notification for Shig and Kato, wich never amounted to anything, now I recently subscribed to his newsletter AND I'm following his site on a daily basis....ZIP



I could have got 3 more Shigs from JNS / but no budget - there were Yanagi’s Deba, and a few other knives I could have pocketed which included Kitaeji - but I would have faced divorce if I dumped that much cash in a month

So it’s absolutely possible

Make sure you follow is IG - that is where he announces things. The secret is IG


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## tchan001

The secret is RockyBasel is at the right place at the right time pressing the right buttons and getting lucky.


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## damiano

I follow Maksim's IG too, and indeed he posts quite frequently. Make sure to like his posts so they will come as one of the first in your feed. Quite a mythical figure by now for me, so I was quite surprised he replied to my email message telling him I'm returning the 210 Munetoshi!


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## RockyBasel

tchan001 said:


> The secret is RockyBasel is at the right place at the right time pressing the right buttons and getting lucky.



I have been training the keyboard finger for years now, and developing smart “refresh” strategies

I have also found that if I light incense before the shig sale - I tend to succeed more

it will happen - If I can get 3 shigs in 4 weeks as a novice, anyone can

good thing about maksim - he runs an open market - anyone can obtain it, vs Taking private orders


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## MarcelNL

hmmm, I 'm not into IG and not about to do so. I'll drop him a line to see if he also caters for social media paria's ;-)
Incense I have, will burn some...


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## Corradobrit1

MarcelNL said:


> hmmm, I 'm not into IG and not about to do so. I'll drop him a line to see if he also caters for social media paria's ;-)
> Incense I have, will burn some...


You should reconsider. I don't maintain an active IG presence but it has allowed me to pick up several Katos, Comets and the opportunity to acquire a bunch of other hard-to-find makers.


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## jacko9

Finding that rare knife on JNS site is by luck and looking there at all hours of the day. I'm on the West coast of USA and I find the opportunity to catch some of those knives at 2 or 3am most times.


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## Corradobrit1

jacko9 said:


> Finding that rare knife on JNS site is by luck and looking there at all hours of the day. I'm on the West coast of USA and I find the opportunity to catch some of those knives at 2 or 3am most times.


Total dedication to the cause. You deserve a medal.


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## jacko9

Corradobrit1 said:


> Total dedication to the cause. You deserve a medal.


No actually I'm old and that means getting up at all hours to go to the bathroom! Last time I came across a Shigefusa 240mm Gyuto was a month after buying the same knife from another vendor for $300 USD less.


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## tostadas

Here's the automated response email I get from TF when sending an inquiry through the website. I'm looking forward to this


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## Boynutman

To be touched by Gaku...
(angels singing)


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## BillHanna

HappyTime©


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## ian

@lemeneid, any updates on your search?


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## lemeneid

ian said:


> @lemeneid, any updates on your search?


Thought I showed it, got it a month back and love it!


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## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> Thought I showed it, got it a month back and love it!
> View attachment 148893


Looks like the old one. Details please.


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## lemeneid

Corradobrit1 said:


> Looks like the old one. Details please.


Sure
56mm tall
246mm edge length
278g

and thinner than all the TFs I've had.


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## zizirex

Just wanna know, does TF do custom order? I wonder if they make 225mm?


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu

zizirex said:


> Just wanna know, does TF do custom order? I wonder if they make 225mm?


Yes they do, but it falls on the more expensive side of the 210mm to 240mm price gap.


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## brimmergj

tostadas said:


> Here's the automated response email I get from TF when sending an inquiry through the website. I'm looking forward to this
> 
> View attachment 148859


I've been waiting since August to be touched


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## Bart.s

zizirex said:


> Just wanna know, does TF do custom order? I wonder if they make 225mm?



Yes they do make customs. But like said before, it gets pretty expensive. I recently bought a 210 mab, actual edge is 215. You could try and email Gaku if they have any oversized 210's in stock.


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## zizirex

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Yes they do, but it falls on the more expensive side of the 210mm to 240mm price gap.





Bart.s said:


> Yes they do make customs. But like said before, it gets pretty expensive. I recently bought a 210 mab, actual edge is 215. You could try and email Gaku if they have any oversized 210's in stock.



I see because the price of 240 is really expensive and 210 is still considerable Also His 240 is a bit too big. That’s why 225 is the perfect length especially with those tall knife profile. How much roughly the price will be since the 240 is roughly around 55k yen and 210 around 35k yen.
Also hoping it to have a rough Nashiji Kuro Uchi finish.


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## Bart.s

zizirex said:


> I see because the price of 240 is really expensive and 210 is still considerable Also His 240 is a bit too big. That’s why 225 is the perfect length especially with those tall knife profile. How much roughly the price will be since the 240 is roughly around 55k yen and 210 around 35k yen.
> Also hoping it to have a rough Nashiji Kuro Uchi finish.



Ping at @Corradobrit1, as he is likely to tell you more about it than I can.

In my email exchange with Gaku he told me that custom orders are roughly 2.5 times the price vs. an off the shelf unit. They can do multiple finishes, nashiji as on the Maboroshi line, KU as on the Denka line and I believe they are also doing iron clad.


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## brimmergj

Bart.s said:


> and I believe they are also doing iron clad


Hmmm, that's what I had asked about when I sent my inquiry. I was looking to get an iron clad mab 210. Sent my inquiry in August, got the "touching" automated reply and no response since.


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## lemeneid

There is no iron clad. The soft iron has not been available for a long time now.


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## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> There is no iron clad. The soft iron has not been available for a long time now.


True so I wonder how Morihei are supplying their 3rd party retail partners


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## lemeneid

Corradobrit1 said:


> True so I wonder how Morihei are supplying their 3rd party retail partners


Those are NOS. They haven’t made any new iron clad for a while.


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## M1k3

lemeneid said:


> Those are NOS. They haven’t made any new iron clad for a while.


Not since @panda's?


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## brimmergj

Any particular reason as to why they don't do iron clad anymore? Or is it more of a they'll do it, but not often and it's not cheap?


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## M1k3

brimmergj said:


> Any particular reason as to why they don't do iron clad anymore? Or is it more of a they'll do it, but not often and it's not cheap?


Bug them for roughly 6 months, then they'll say yes.


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## lemeneid

M1k3 said:


> Not since @panda's?


Yup, his was one of the last.


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## lemeneid

M1k3 said:


> Bug them for roughly 6 months, then they'll say yes.


I’ve had happy time with them and been bugging them for 2 years now. They don’t have it.

Shutaro and Gaku mentioned its because the soft iron they used to have is no more available.


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## Bart.s

lemeneid said:


> Shutaro and Gaku mentioned its because the soft iron they used to have is no more available.



Hmm bummer. Also would have really liked an iron clad custom along the road.


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## brimmergj

Bart.s said:


> Hmm bummer. Also would have really liked an iron clad custom along the road.


Me too. Guess I'll have to play the bst lottery for an iron clad Morihei


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## zizirex

oh man, it would be nice to have an Ironclad Denka with a coarse nashiji finish.


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## Corradobrit1

zizirex said:


> oh man, it would be nice to have an Ironclad Denka with a coarse nashiji finish.


Something like this


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## zizirex

Corradobrit1 said:


> Something like this



Almost, but Western handle would be better. Because Wa Handle on TF is just not right.


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## Bico Doce

Corradobrit1 said:


> Something like this



In the video the guy said this knife was re-handled and polished by Bryan Raquin. Pretty cool. 

He also said this knife was made with AS was water quenched, is that the norm for these?


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## Corradobrit1

Bico Doce said:


> In the video the guy said this knife was re-handled and polished by Bryan Raquin. Pretty cool.
> 
> He also said this knife was made with AS was water quenched, is that the norm for these?


All TF's, at least the inhouse forged lines are mizu (water) quenched.


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## Bart.s

Corradobrit1 said:


> Something like this




What a beauty. Too bad they are not making them anymore.


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