# Value added above 1k



## WaTFTanaki (Jul 13, 2021)

9 months into this. So pardon my stupidity. Watching Murray Carter and Bob Kramer and the sharpening formula is1k>6k finish & deburr . But honestly I am moving backwards to 1k in the kitchen. Two weeks ago I took my Miura 150 Y Tanaka petty to a shapton glass 1k. Burrs on both sides. Edge trailing stropping on 1k. Some edge leading light strokes. Done. The knife is a total tomato slayer. Veggies run away scared. It’s kitchen Nirvana. Repeat with my Takada no homono Y Tanaka 210 gyuto on the 1k SG. Same result. I am not yanagi cutting otoro here. Is there any reason to take a petty or gyuto above 1k? If yes why? I feel like I have simplified life and now have better cutting tools. What am I missing? Again this is my novice experience but it works.


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## tostadas (Jul 13, 2021)

I really like 1k on proteins. It's more than adequate, and far exceeds what you might find in your average kitchen. But the feeling from the extra refinement I get from a 2-3k edge is well worth it to me.


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## WaTFTanaki (Jul 13, 2021)

What are you gaining my moving up to 3-4k? I live in shapton glass 3k land to simplify my life, though it’s prob my least fav SG stove. The 50o and 1k are killer as are 6k and up. I just get no love from the 3k. So I omit it from any progression


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## rmrf (Jul 13, 2021)

I use other stones after SG 1K because I'm bad at sharpening. The edge I get after 1K hesitates through paper and stropping / raising a tiny burr on 2K and 6K helps me. I get this rough or sticky feeling when I cut through things if I stop at 1K but thats likely due to bad sharpening technique. 

I also usually can strop at 6K or sharpen at 2K -> 6K to bring back an edge. It would be faster to use a 1K, but I'm trying to avoid needing to thin and I probably remove much more metal with the 1K.


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## Kawa (Jul 13, 2021)

For me, its fun to have my knife sharper then a 1k edge. And yes, they will get sharper.. a lot.
A good 5k or 8k edge will also kill a tomato with ease, better then a 1k edge in my hands. Yes, the 1k edge might cut tomatoes for a longer time (after the initial sharpness is gone after a little while), but it doesnt slice it like a fresh high gritt edge does.
There's more then tomatoes. I feel like everything goes a little easier with a high gritt edge, feels more clean and surgical.

Then again, I'm a home cook. No, not even that. I cook so my knives get used so I can sharpen them again. That's my real hobby, prepping diner is a way to keep on sharpening  Its more fun with that ultimate sharp edge.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 13, 2021)

if 1k makes you happy then sharpen to 1k.

there is no better to higher grit or lower grit. there is better in sharpening but that's more about consistency, technique, etc. asking why someone prefers a higher grit is a bit like asking why their favorite color is blue.

also a 6k probably cannot fully remove the scratches from 1k, so youre not getting the same result as if you had done 1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 6.


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## branwell (Jul 13, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> What am I missing? Again this is my novice experience but it works.


What Murray was promoting with the King 1K / 6K sequence was a hybrid edge.
Basically you sharpen on the 1K and take a few stropping strokes on the 6K enough to refine the 1K edge a little, not enough to create a 6K edge. What you end up with is a very very keen 1K edge. An almost sort of best of both worlds type thing thats great for general kitchen use.
Not sure what Kramer was promoting, I've not seen it.


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## branwell (Jul 13, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> also a 6k probably cannot fully remove the scratches from 1k, so youre not getting the same result as if you had done 1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 6.


A King 6K Murray was promoting is very slow and great for hybrid edges. Definitely not the same edge as a 1 > 2 > 4 > 6.


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## KingShapton (Jul 14, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> 9 months into this. So pardon my stupidity


First of all, there is nothing to excuse! You have been with us for 9 months, you have your first experiences and observations and now you have a few serious questions based on your results and observations. That's perfectly fine, and that's part of the whole point of a forum.



WaTFTanaki said:


> Watching Murray Carter and Bob Kramer and the sharpening formula is1k>6k finish & deburr . But honestly I am moving backwards to 1k in the kitchen


As far as I can remember, Carter's videos show him sharpening a hybrid edge with the King 1K and King 6K.

Bob Kramer, on the other hand, uses a different technique, different stones (presumably Naniwa Chosera with a slightly different composition glued to glass) and he uses a different stone sequence, 1K, 3K, 5K.

From your information I understand that your 1K is a Shapton Glass, what other stones did you use? And in which grit numbers, what kind of progression did you work with? And what exactly did you not like about your result, what were you not satisfied with?



WaTFTanaki said:


> Is there any reason to take a petty or gyuto above 1k?


Definitely, but in the end it is always a question of the personal preferences of the respective sharpener and also a question of the steel.

Some steels, depending on the composition and the heat treatment, can be given a higher finish and the edge benefits from it, the opposite consists of a cheap knife made of a crap steel, each finish over 500 - 1000 grit is simply too much and it's not worth the effort.

Different users prefer different finishes, some stop at 1000 # and prefer a coarser edge with every amount of bite, others love it when their knife goes through the food like a ghost and most users are somewhere in between. Many say that 3-4K is a great finish for a Gyuto.

Another point is the respective application, raw meat for example, there is a finish between 1-3K, with other foods a finer finish is more useful.

Ultimately, you have to find out what works well for you, both which finish and which stones. Different stones can achieve different results, a lot of bite, little bite, etc. In this case, the only thing that helps is trying.

Another point that I think could be very interesting for you is the following - sharpening involves a learning curve, also a bit depending on how often someone sharpens (muscle memory), how good the hand-eye coordination is and also how much someone is concerned with what he is doing and whether he understands the associated theory.

Often (and rightly) given advice for a beginner is: Master the 1K. There is a reason for this, if the basics are not right and you do not get a good result with the 1K then it makes no sense to continue with a finer stone. In other words, if the foundation is not made well, the house that is built on it will not be stable.

At the beginning, in my opinion, you should first learn from the 1K to achieve the best possible result and that is reproducible. At 1k, a knife can get really scary sharp, sharper than most can imagine. Only then does it make sense to use a finer stone afterwards, it is simply a question of the learning curve and practice.

Therefore, it may well be possible that you currently like your results better after the 1000 than after a finer stone. I would recommend that you concentrate on the 1K for the moment and build up your technique and muscle memory. And then later on I would add a finer stone, but only then.

If it turns out that you don't like that fine edges, then maybe orient yourself in the direction of 2-3K, there are some very good stones. Or deal more with Hybrid.edges, but first and foremost master the 1K. By the way, the Shapton Glass 1k is a very good stone.


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## WaTFTanaki (Jul 14, 2021)

This is super helpful. Thanks. For me the lesson is dial in 1k so it scary sharp and get the fundamentals sound for 1k. Then jump. In this case I did some stropping on 6k ans it was すごいsharp. Prior to this I would have spent a lot of time on 3k ans 6k SG and not gotten results this good, because the SG3k I can’t get anything out of yet ans I wasn’t doing the ground work on 1k


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## inferno (Jul 14, 2021)

a 1k edge is basically a saw. you want a saw? you got it. 

i like 3-4k ast least


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## WaTFTanaki (Jul 14, 2021)

Meh. I am not seeing saws. After 6k strop I am seeing a useful knife. So we disagree. I have to say though I don’t love the SG 3k. I don’t have a 2-4K splash & go that I love though so still seeking.


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## spaceconvoy (Jul 14, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> Meh. I am not seeing saws. After 6k strop I am seeing a useful knife. So we disagree. I have to say though I don’t love the SG 3k. I don’t have a 2-4K splash & go that I love though so still seeking.


IMO you're way ahead of the curve if you're satisfied with a 1K edge and willing to refine your sharpening technique before moving higher. Seems like most people have to opposite problem: wanting to acquire a bunch of fancy stones before knowing what to do with them. The longer you can focus on learning with one stone, the better.

Since you're not in a rush, I'd recommend lurking BST for a good deal on a natural stone if you want a truly awesome ~3K edge from a splash-and-go. Should be able to find a decent aoto for around a hundred. A fine numata is a good bet though more expensive, or a nice aizu if you're lucky, but some can be too fine.


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## inferno (Jul 14, 2021)

but you alse very soon run into a wall.


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## inferno (Jul 14, 2021)

there is a very big difference between a 2k edge and a 1k one imo. i put a 500 edge on a knife to cut glass fiber isolation. worked really well. 
horses for courses.


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## cotedupy (Jul 14, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> there is no better to higher grit or lower grit. there is better in sharpening but that's more about consistency, technique, etc. asking why someone prefers a higher grit is a bit like asking why their favorite color is blue.



^This^

As well as the knife it also depends on the stone for me... I finish on stones that I like the edge off. Usually 1.2, 3, or a couple of naturals around 4-7k. I have other stones in the same brackets that I don't much like as finishers.

And I'd definitely agree with @KingShapton too... find a 1k you like, and know completely. Then start seeing if you want to add to it. You'll know you've got your technique down pat, and can always just go back to the 1k if you don't like higher grit finishes in use.


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## Benuser (Jul 15, 2021)

If you're able to fully deburr on a 1k that's great. When I started sharpening the main reason for going to a 2 or 3k was in the remaining burr with the 1k, depending on the steel, I must admit. 
An incomplete deburring will result in a poor edge retention. If it's a fat burr even in steering, before breaking off and leaving a moonscape-like image. 
Once the deburring hurdle taken, a good reason not to stay with 1k is in the waste of material. Given a 1k edge, you may refresh it with a few 3k strokes and get a smooth edge again. Feel with your nail along the edge. A home user will only occasionally need a full sharpening, and can postpone it by touching-up for some ten times. 
If touching-up with the finest stone doesn't give the expected result within a few strokes I don't insist, but go to the one before in the progression. Only if the 2k doesn't work any longer it's time for a full sharpening, starting at 400 behind the edge and going up to 3 or 4k.
With quite some soft carbon I stop the full sharpening at 2k, but maintain them at 8k.
With carbon steel blades, who have a low abrasion resistance, maintenance at 1k only will dramatically reduce the blade's life span. This can be different with stainless ones. Soft ones — like the Wüsthof and Zwilling / Henckels — don't hold highly polished edges. Please note that soft stainless are usually extremely abrasion resistant. Harder ones benefit from going up to 2 or 3k. Some are very hard to get fully deburred at 1k.
So, there are very different reasons to go finer than 1k. I wouldn't suggest to make the jump up to 6k at once. A lot of new users have experienced a lot of difficulties when they used the 6k in the same way as they did with the medium one. It can be helpful to start with a 2 or 3k, and start by only light stropping and deburring. It takes some time to get used to a new stone, and fine-tune your technique, especially by getting used to a much lighter touch. After all, there is already an edge of a few microns of width, and you don't want to crush it as would happen if you were to apply the kind of force you do with a blunt blade on a coarser stone. You will see that the best results are obtained if you do not entirely remove the scratches of the previous stone. You only somewhat refine, and get a smoother, less ragged cut. Have fun.


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## Michi (Jul 15, 2021)

For German steels, I stop at 1k. For Japanese ones, at 3k. The 3k edge is smoother and cuts more cleanly, but I could definitely live with the 1k edge on everything.

Anything 5k and above gives diminishing returns, IMO. Yes, I can get a keener edge that way, but it it's back to a more dull edge in short order because the very fine apex from high grits doesn't survive very long.


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## WaTFTanaki (Jul 15, 2021)

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Since I am able get to fairly scary sharp on SG 1k, or lightly stropped on 6k, but am 3k curious, and don’t love the SH 3k, I am going to explore some J nats in the 2-3k range. Got some suggestions above but any more are welcome.


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## WaTFTanaki (Jul 15, 2021)

FYI almost everything I am sharpening is White or Blue 1 or 2. I want a Ginsan but now now.


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## Elliot (Jul 15, 2021)

I will be a bit of a contrarian here.

- Take anything said by Murray with a massive grain of salt. Despite being a 3,400,458 generation blacksmith, he's much more of a salesman.
- For a gyuto, 1k is absolutely fine. If you want to do some strops on something a little finer after, it's not going to take away from performance substantially, but also not going to make it "sharper." That's a miscategorization.

As for me, I will typically re-touch an edge on a mikawa nagura bench stone *multiple *times before going back down to 1k to create a completely new edge. When I do go that coarse, I typically follow with a minute or less on an Aizu. And yes, at a big level, that's simply because I have stones and need to find an excuse to use them.

TLDR: NOTHING wrong with a 1k edge and if you're happy with it -- rock n' roll.

Also: Chosera 3k is probably the best in class. Consider that.


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## branwell (Jul 15, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> but am 3k curious



I'm very flaky when it comes to edges. What I really like seems to change every couple weeks so take this with a grain of salt, but at the moment, I'm all about the 3K edge, specifically the edge you can get of the Suehero Ouka with Aoto slurry. The edge has a great balance of keenness, aggression and feedback in the cut.

I would urge you to consider grit ratings very loosely.
The edge of a Ouka 3K is quite different to the edge of a Naniwa Pro / Chosera 3K, which is different to a Shapton Glass 3K assuming the same technique is used and speaking of technique, different stones respond differently to different techniques. Further, different same grit stones behave differently with different steels and heat treats. To make the rabbit hole even deeper, as your skills evolve, the results you get with different stones will change as well.

To sum it up, water stones are an infinitely deep rabbit hole with which trial and error is king.


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## cotedupy (Jul 15, 2021)

Team Ouka! That or my Turkish stone would be my normal 'go-to' finishers. (And the Ouka has the great advantage over the latter in that you can actually buy one ).


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## coxhaus (Jul 15, 2021)

So, I am trying to figure your 1k grit to my WS KO. So, I have 2 Henckels 4star 10-inch chef's knives. One is sharpened with a X4 belt which I assume is 3000. My latest Henckels 4star 10-inch chef knife is sharpened to 6000 with a leather strop and white polishing compound. It cuts smoother than my 3000 knife. I have only been using my polished knife for over a week now and I use it every day at home. So not a lot of use. It still cuts tomatoes great with less tooth feel than my 3000 knife. I have a picture of my polished edge.

I have tried using only the X22 belt but using the X4 belt after the X22 belt, the knife is much smoother cutting. I hate sharpening but 1 additional belt is not a lot of trouble.


So, is my 1000 the same as your 1000 that you are talking about? If it is then I like 3000 better.

I was playing around with my 10-inch polished knife and I peeled a large baking potato using the heel of the knife. The peels just glided off. I may try making a small paring knife for potato peeling only. It was a lot more fun than using a potato peeler.


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## Jovidah (Jul 27, 2021)

I'm a bit late to this thread but figured I'd add this... one of the advantages of keener edges for me are that they bruise the product less. So... cutting onions without crying... cutting apples and not having them go brown for hours.. cutting herbs and having them stay perfectly fresh and not having any green crap on your board. For me they also push-cut better... 
But who knows maybe you just mastered your 1k so well that you already achieve this without another finisher.  Technically if you go low enough on the pressure you can still get a pretty fine finish off them.


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## Ochazuke (Jul 28, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> I'm a bit late to this thread but figured I'd add this... one of the advantages of keener edges for me are that they bruise the product less. So... cutting onions without crying... cutting apples and not having them go brown for hours.. cutting herbs and having them stay perfectly fresh and not having any green crap on your board. For me they also push-cut better...
> But who knows maybe you just mastered your 1k so well that you already achieve this without another finisher.  Technically if you go low enough on the pressure you can still get a pretty fine finish off them.


^This. A lot people kind of roll their eyes when you talk about cutting food and keeping the cell structure intact, but when you do really delicate cuts of fish or vegetables is when you'll notice the difference with more edge refinement. 

A lot of restaurants get judged by the quality of their tsuma for sashimi - the daikon that's been run through a spiralizer or done with a dull knife is mushy and the color and smell go off very quickly. Whereas tsuma done nicely with a well-maintained knife is crispy, pleasantly fragrant, and delicious!


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## Pie (Jul 28, 2021)

I used to be one of those eye rollers. Then I made poké bowls, and the difference between 1k and ~10k edge is clearly noticeable in the flavour and texture of the vegetables.

I also really like messing with edges and as a home cook, I don’t mind revisiting the stones more regularly to maintain a high grit edge.


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## branwell (Jul 28, 2021)

Pie said:


> and the difference between 1k and ~10k edge is clearly noticeable in the flavour and texture of the vegetables.


I'm with you there for sure.

For things cooked, I tend to go with a 3K edge as I like the slightly textured feel in the cut as opposed to the glide through feel, but pretty much anything raw like things cut up for salsa, salads, etc, I prefer the mouth feel of it cut with a very thin edge at 8K or higher.


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## Ruso (Jul 28, 2021)

I prefer 5k-6k edges, but never thought that there will be a taste difference when vegetables are cut using higher grit vs lower. I will have to try it by doing quick Israeli salad.


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## Benuser (Jul 29, 2021)

I use to demonstrate it with a few slices of tomato. See how they look after a few hours in the fridge. Laying in a puddle when cut with a coarse edge, intact when a refined edge had been used.


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## richinva (Jul 29, 2021)

Kawa said:


> ... I cook so my knives get used so I can sharpen them again. That's my real hobby, prepping diner is a way to keep on sharpening...



Myself, myself.


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## Ruso (Jul 29, 2021)

Benuser said:


> I use to demonstrate it with a few slices of tomato. See how they look after a few hours in the fridge. Laying in a puddle when cut with a coarse edge, intact when a refined edge had been used.


Sure make sense, but I do not see a connection from this easy to demonstrate experiment to a taste difference. Especially if the vegetables are eaten shortlly after being cut.


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## Kawa (Jul 29, 2021)

Easy to test i guess.

Don't prep 2 different salads or meals. You want to eliminate as much variables as possible.

Just take one ingredient: 1 tomatoe or 1 cucumber or 1 union.
Cut it in half with a random knife.

Slice one half with a 1k edge
Slice the other half with your refined edge.
Make sure you cut about the same size etc.
Taste.

Be sure you dont take 2 tamatoes or unions. Both might taste slightly different.
I havent tried this and I doubt if i can taste different edges for my ingredients. I do however know how strong placebo can be.

And on the other hand, if taste is also 'texture or mouth feel' in a whole meal.


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## Dan- (Jul 29, 2021)

I use my 1k shapton for repairing nicks in my blades! I can't imagine stopping at 1k or starting at 1k except when absolutely necessary. Steak knives get 2k (no less, no more), but everything else starts at 2k, gets at least a little 5k, and some get some time on an 8k shapton glass. It really does depend on the knife though.


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## WaTFTanaki (Jul 29, 2021)

I have been mucking around again. I took another less used petty up to SG 8k to compare. For apples for the kids snacks for camp there is clearly less browning. But if I want to slice cherry tomatoes or secreto I stay with the 1k edge. So different applications get different grits.


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## Jville (Jul 30, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> I'm a bit late to this thread but figured I'd add this... one of the advantages of keener edges for me are that they bruise the product less. So... cutting onions without crying... cutting apples and not having them go brown for hours.. cutting herbs and having them stay perfectly fresh and not having any green crap on your board. For me they also push-cut better...
> But who knows maybe you just mastered your 1k so well that you already achieve this without another finisher.  Technically if you go low enough on the pressure you can still get a pretty fine finish off them.


Yup, I’ve noticed a difference with herbs cut with more refined edge, you can just leave them out and they dry naturally and beautifully green.


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