# Thinking of a copper pan - need some help



## Matus

Hi,

our Greenpan (28cm, 8cm tall) seems to be approaching its end and I am looking to replace it with a different one. The surface on the Greenpan (some sort of ceramics) held up reasonably long, but its anti-sticking properties diminished quite a bit. On top of that the pan takes ages to heat up on our glass stove (not inductive).

After I have heard about the copper pans I became interested about them. It just seems that there are different types and quite a few makers and I am getting a bit lost. I have started to first look at Mauviel, but obviously there are quite a few others.

For the start - what is the difference between stainless clad copper (like Mauviel Herigtage) and tinn clad one (like Mauviel Tradition)? And what about the pans with silver surface (like Mazzetti)?

I am opened to your advices and suggestions.

thanks


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## Richard78

Tinn and silver clad conducts heat a little better compared to stainless clad. But I am pretty sure you will not notice a difference. 
The thickness of the copper is more important. 
With tinn you might need to re-tinn the pan after years of abuse.
De Buyer and Ronneby Bruk also have nice copper pans by the way.
The Demeyere Atlantis low sauce pan has copper only in the bottom of the pan and is very easy to maintain because it is completely stainless.


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## 99Limited

Ever since I saw this thread pop up I've been racking my brain. I've seen some killer copper cookware made in the USA but I couldn't remember where I saw it, so I quit thinking about it and bingo! Hammersmith copper cookware. Kind of expensive, but it looks like it's worth it.

Well, scratch that one off your list for the time being anyway. Looks like the economy has recovered and they are not accepting any new orders. Good for them, sad for you.


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## Matus

Interesting. But since I am located in Germany, ordering a heavy copper ware from USA would probably be very expensive.

One general though of mine on the thickness of the copper. It seems that the preference is - the thicker the better. That can however only serve one purpose - and that is heat distribution (in horizontal direction, so the pan will have more even temperature across its surface) and of course mechanical stability. It does not aid heat transport from the stove to food being cooked. 

I have read that tin surface is less 'sticky' than stainless one. What are the other relevant differences from user point of view?


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## Von blewitt

My Mauvieal sugar pan is solid copper, the heat transfer is very even and predictable. I'm no expert, but I think its a case of you get what you pay for. I aquired it very second hand ( the handle had snapped off after 15 years in a super busy pro kitchen) and after riveting the handle back on its given me another 5 years and shows no sign of giving up.


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## scotchef38

I would do some research first as retinning is expensive IF you can find someone to do it.


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## Matus

OK, I have read some more and found out that another option would be a so called 'multi clad' pan which has 3 layers (SS, aluminium, SS). It should work about the same as SS clad copper, but for less weight and lower cost.

Anyone having experience with multi-clad pans like e.g. All-Clad?


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## Bef

In my opinion, there is no way a multi-clad would react to heat/cold as fast as copper.

Since you are located in Europe, I suggest that you look at E. Dellerin prices. Their Mauviel copper/tin pans are much cheaper than what I saw anywhere else. You can also send them an e-mail if you are looking for a product that is not listed.


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## Seth

Qualifications: I have 12 copper mauviel, some all clad, carbon steel, viking. I started collecting copper 25 years ago and have a mix of thickness and tin/steel.

Comments:
I use a 10" carbon daily especially for omelets and high temp searing. Anything that requires some finesse, say like something lightly breaded or fish that could burn is done in copper. I believe there is a difference in that tin is a bit less sticky but I couldn't prove that.

I read, I think in modernist cuisine that the thickness is not very important with respect to heat dispersion. The material would have to be and inch thick for the geometry to make a difference. I will track this down if needed. I bring this up because if you do a lot of flipping, the thickest 10" or 12" pan will get to your wrist pretty quickly. My 10" thick copper/tin weighs a ton. The 12" copper/steel is thinner for this reason.

As you are in Europe I would find out who does tinning and the cost, just to know. It is a dying art here in the US. After 25 years of home cooking, some of the tin should be redone but is still in good shape.


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## Matus

I appreciate your comments. Thank you.

Tin -vs- SS - if there is not considerable difference in sticking, than I would probably go with SS cladding - in particular if it is going to be lighter than tin-clad copper.

I have checked out E. Dellerin. Are they actually producing the land for Mauviel? The design seems identical and prices very similar (I am comparing to German Amazon).

I have also 'discovered' pans from German maker called  Weyersberg, but their products cost nearly double what Mauviel does.

When it comes to well know ones like Mauviel, De Buyer, Fulk (or others) - what would be the reason to choose one over the other?

And of course there are some lover cost options, but I think I would rather get a pan from makers that I can get some references for.


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## 9mmbhp

Falk owns the process for laminating SS to copper and they supply the raw material to both Mauviel and Bourgeat. Falk's pans have a brushed exterior finish which many prefer over the bright polished finish on the Mauviel and Bourgeat which can take a lot of work to maintain. There are other minor differences in handle shape, handle attachment method (rivet vs. welded). Since the manufacturers all use the same basic material, performance is more or less identical and choosing between the 3 is really a matter of aesthetics and personal preference. 

As far as tin or silver-lined copper - both melt at a lower point than SS so there are limitations as to how they can be used. 

One known issue with the SS used by Falk is that it is prone to salt pitting, the pits are harmless but visible.

I have a variety of Falk pieces, they are a luxury but I enjoy cooking with them and look forward to using them every day. My favorites are the oval roasting pans.

This is a very informative write-up of the materials and construction techniques used for cookware and how/what to select for various cooking tasks: Understanding Stovetop Cookware.


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## Bef

Matus said:


> I have checked out E. Dellerin. Are they actually producing the land for Mauviel? The design seems identical and prices very similar (I am comparing to German Amazon).



The copper products that E. Dehillerin are selling are from Mauviel. But their prices on tin lined products, from my experience, are much lower than anywhere else, including other shops in France. Are you sure that you are comparing the exact same products on amazon.de? For instance, their 24cm / 2.5mm tin lined saute pan is 105 euro at Dehillerin. And 88 euros if you are a tourist from ousite of the euro zone.


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## Matus

Anthony, thank you for the advice and the link - I am just reading through. Very helpful.

Bef, you are right, but as usually with Amazon, the prices vary wildly even with similar products. I was looking at 28cm sauté pan and there the price difference is really quite small. But I will keep eye on that webpage and once I know what I want/need.


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## Chifunda

Another vote for Falk. I have a saute pan and a saucier from them and as Anthony said, I actually look forward to using them. Plus, you can make the saute pan part of your daily fitness routine...bloody heavy.


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## Adirondack

I hate cooking on an electric stove but that is my lot in life right now (home cook). Is cooking with copper pans useless on electric as it is hard to control the heat, or are there still advantages.


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## Bef

Adirondack said:


> I hate cooking on an electric stove but that is my lot in life right now (home cook). Is cooking with copper pans useless on electric as it is hard to control the heat, or are there still advantages.



Same here... There is an advantage, only you don't benefit from the copper as much as you would with gas. But still, there is a perceptible difference. You can feel the heat much more rapidly, and when you remove your pot from the stove, it also colds much faster.

I was thinking about switching to copper at some point, but I think that it's quite possible that I would use induction some day, say, in 10-20 years. So copper pans might not be a good investment in that context...


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## Lizzardborn

Matus said:


> It seems that the preference is - the thicker the better. That can however only serve one purpose - and that is heat distribution (in horizontal direction, so the pan will have more even temperature across its surface) and of course mechanical stability. It does not aid heat transport from the stove to food being cooked.



Thermal mass. You have a temperature buffer the heavier the pan is. Which will reduce the effect of throw food on pan, it cools down a few degrees and then catches up. This was big problem for my crepes. Until I moved to heavier pans the resulting pancakes were always stingy and tough.


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## Matus

I have indeed forgot the thermal mass (capacity). But the more heat capacity the pan has, the slower it will react to change (on the stove) as that heat capacity needs to be dumped or re-loaded. So I guess that the optical thickness would depend on the use.

Concerning pancakes (crepes) - I do them with very good success on thin aluminium non-stick Tefal pan. Just keep it hot through out the process and only take it off the stove to turn or remove the pancake. Even the minuscule heat capacity seems enough (when hot enough) to solidify the dough nearly immediately once poured in. But of course my expectations on the result may be quite a bit different than yours.


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## apathetic

As far as I understand if the copper is not thick enough, you lose the thermal reactivity to the inside cladding which much more inert, that's why you would still want thicker copper pots. 

When it comes to crepes, I get the best results from seasoned cast iron pans


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## Seth

So from Modernist Cuisine, a few comments:

"In a typical copper pan, the temperature across the bottom will vary by no more that 40 degrees. But if the pan were made of stainless steel, then it would need to be more 7 cm thick to perform similarly...

"When it comes to heating food evenly, the metal the pan is made from is the least important factor. What matters more are the thickness of the meal, the size of the pan, and the size of the burner heating the pan.

But then he goes on to say: "The thicker a pan is, the more uniform the temperature across its surface....[but less agile...]

So I guess the ideal is a pan made of transparent copper, 2 inches thick, that weighs nothing, and sits on a burner with 120 micro jets...

At the beginning of this section he basically says even heat on copper is not so much the advantage, it is really response time; heating up and reacting to adjustments.

RE: Apathetic. That may be why some people prefer tin; I suspect it is thinner than a steel cladding.


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## Matus

Apathetic - I have suspected that iron pan is the way to go with crepes - but I have not yet got that far just yet 

*Coating:*
I have scratched the tin off the list because of lifetime considerations (re-tinning in Germany will probably cost more than a new pan anyhow).Look at prices more closely - Falk is considerably more expensive than Mauviel. It is actually at the level of silver plated copper pans from Mazzotti. That brings me to the following question - how is the mechanical and thermal stability of silver compared to stainless steel? The silver not only has much better thermal conductivity, it is also much thinner (15 micrometers compared to 200 micrometers of stainless steel cladding). What would be the up and down sides?

*Handles:*
Falk seem to have better (is it?) handle design - one at leas has 2 options as the stainless handles have different shape than the iron cast one. I would be curios to hear more on the handle shape. Heavy pan with wrong handle design is probably a bad choice. So - what is your opinion on the handles of the pans mentioned?


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## Mucho Bocho

Matus, you hit the nail on the head "Heavy pan with heavy handles." I have several versions of pans with copper. They all behave differently. The Allclad copper core to me, cook like triply aluminum SS pans. Maybe be a little better heat distribution, marginal. 

Falk copper pans cook very differently from anything else I ever used. You have both thermal mass and a metal that is very responsive to heat. 

For me the handles aren't really a big issue because I don't flip and toss them about anyway. When I'm cooking on the Falk's I use utensils to maneuver the food, as opposed to using the pan to maneuver the food. 

So they're really heavy (even without food), not easy to maneuver and a PIA keep perfectly shiny and cannot be washed in the dishwasher. That's the main reason they only get used a hand full of times a year. But when they do come out, Its like driving a Ferrari around my stove top.


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## Matus

Thanks Mucho - you do have a point. The pan will be way to heavy to move around when not absolutely necessary - I completely missed that point. I am actually wondering how big of an advantage of the Falk would be the helper-handle on the larger pans (which weight about 3 - 4 kg)

*Mauviel: 1.5mm vs 2.5mm*
One more question conceding the Mauviel pans. These seem to come in 1.5 and 2.5 mm thickness. I would love to hear some user experience with larger pans (28 and 30 cm) in these thicknesses. The 1.5 is obviously both lighter and cheaper, but how are other properties including mechanical stability? I will be using the pan on electric (glass) stove, so the flatness is of importance.


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## 9mmbhp

Matus said:


> Thanks Mucho - you do have a point. The pan will be way to heavy to move around when not absolutely necessary - I completely missed that point. I am actually wondering how big of an advantage of the Falk would be the helper-handle on the larger pans (which weight about 3 - 4 kg)



A helper handle is a must on the larger pots/pans. 

Consider also the two loop handle versions of the saucier and saute pans - Falk calls them 'stew' and 'casserole' respectively - they take up far less space and are much easier to carry.


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## Matus

Good point with the double loop handle saucier pans. Given the weight of the pan the pan will not be moved during cooing (our current pan weights 'just' 1.6 kg and it does not see any movement either). I guess I just need to overcome the mental block since it the does not look like a pan anymore even though it has the same shape


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## Mucho Bocho

The 12" sauté I have has a helper handle, its useful for carrying the pan, from the stove to the sink, not so much for flipping food. If I did it again, I's prob. go with would go with the stew pot config in the 3 QT saucier.


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## Matus

I have been just checking up on the weight and, surprisingly, the thickness of the pan makes quite a difference . The Mauviel M150 frying pan in 30cm size weights 'just' 1.5kg, but go M250 AND saucier pan instead and the weight nearly triples. 

Even though I have not decided yet whether to get frying pan or a sucier pan, but I am pretty sure that if it will be the saucier pan it will be with two loop handles. No way I will be able to comfortably lift 4kg pan with 1 kg food in it with just one hand - I can do that with a pan that weights (empty) 1.5kg - I guess I need to work out more  . And I can probably forget from the very beginning that my wife would ever use a pan that heavy.


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## Seth

http://www.mauvielusa.com/cookware-sale/Warehouse-Sale.html

If you are in the neighborhood....


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## Matus

To my surprise, eBay has quite nice article on copper cookware - here


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## Mucho Bocho

Matus, Great article. I concur


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## Matus

Trying to converge - I am putting together a list of makers I would consider. I have so far:
- Mauviel (the M250 line) SS clad
- Falk Stainless Clad (it seems that all their pans in the relevant size have 2.5 thickness)
- Weyersberg - german manufacture making SS clad pans - I am contacting them to find out what thickness of copper they use
- Mazzetti - they make silver and tin clad pans. The silver plated ones (2.5mm copper) are on the expensive side (not that far off from Fals though). Their tim plated pans come at 2.5 and 3.0 copper thickness and have rather reasonable price. 

Concerning design I am leaning towards a larger (28 or 30 cm) sauté pan with 2 loop handles (like the Falk stew pans). Main candidates are Falk and Mazzetti. Something tells me that this is not going to end up cheaply  in particular with Mazzetti as they only sell the pan I have in mind with a lid.

I would in particular appreciate if there is some *experience with Mazzetti* pans - seems like a small producer and there is very little about them to be found online.

I am also not sure whether I should also get a copper lid together with the pan - at the relevant size these cost around 100 which is about 1/3 price of the pan. Given that I do not use the lid on our Greenpan all that much it seems like overkill. :scratchhead:


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## 9mmbhp

The Falk covers are insanely expensive and they are _*not*_ copper.

I see no reason to have a 'matching' cover other than aesthetics so use what you have or buy a plain steel or aluminum one that fits.

As far as Mazetti there's some discussion here. 

The poster 'kaleokahu' seems very knowledgable about copper cookware and offers opinions in almost every discussion mentioning it.


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## Matus

Now that sounds strange - I mean the lids from Falk - on their webpage Falk states that these are made with 0.9mm copper and 0.1mm steel. But indeed - simpler (cheaper and lighter) lids will do the job too.

That one discussion on Mazzetti is interesting - the 'kaleokahu' mentions that the bottom of the pans is 'planished' - does this mean that it is not really smooth-flat and so not really suitable for electric (glass) stove?


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## 9mmbhp

Several years ago the (now prior) US distributor for Falk got a lot of grief for the lids being very expensive and not being copper. The US Falk website does not say anything specific about the covers other than their thicknesses. The pictures do look somewhat different than what I have, so perhaps they are copper now.

As I understand the term 'planishing' means working metal into shape by hammering. I would guess that the final finish depends on the size of the hammer and how much work the maker was willing to put into achieving flatness/smoothness. I think you'd have to see and handle one of the Mazzetti pieces to really know for sure.


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## hypnos

Does Mazzetti have a US distributor? The cookware seems reasonably priced; however, I and chocking on the 67 euro for shipping.


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## Matus

OK, so I have got some answers from both Weyersberg and Mazzetti.

The pans from Weyersberg are 2mm thick. The Frying pan with 30cm diameter (2511-30) weights 2kg and has 3l volume.

Mazzetti pans - the bottom is indeed hammer finished - the 'flatness' of the bottom is within 0.5mm. They have attached a photo where one can see reflection of the background and the image is indeed slightly distorted. 

The million dollar question is indeed - how much effect will this not perfectly flat surface have on the performance of the pan. 

Here is the image:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_W4o1WUz__a3NiVENmQ0JuNDBMa0syci1nc2UwQmtYdU8w/edit?usp=sharing

It may be of interest to know that the silver clad 30 cm pan (8cm tall with two loop handles) weights 3.2kg without the handle and costs 390 without the lid (or 520 with the lid - that makes it 130 just for the lid).

Please note that I am only sharing this information to help others, not to promote Mazzetti (or any other maker for that matter)


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## Funkola

I own a crap load of copper. I only get the 2.5mm Stainless Steel. I have pans from Mauviel and their offspring to E. Dehillerin, Falk, and Matfer Bourgeat. If I were you, I'd look on ebay. You can get them used for a fraction of the price. Of the 3 brands, I prefer Mauviel. I do not like Falk at all...can't stand their brushed interior and exterior. Plus food sticks more believe it or not. Bourgeat has a polished stainless steel interior that just looks exquisite. Their cast iron handles tarnish pretty quickly though. Mauviel is the best of the three in my opinion. I can't find any faults.

Watch out for salt pitting though. Only put salt in boiling water.


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## Matus

Just for the completeness - I have asked on other forum and the Mazzetti pans supposedly work very well on electric glas-top stoves inspite their hammer finished surface.

I am checking second-hnad sources, but it seems that what mostly comes up are tip plated pans in a condition that wold require re-tinning in the first place. There are rather few SS (or silver) clad pans. It takes probably some patience I guess  Anyhow - I will take a little time to reconsider the options I guess. Contrary to hand made knives, this stuff has low resale value.


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## apathetic

Matus said:


> OK, so I have got some answers from both Weyersberg and Mazzetti.
> 
> The pans from Weyersberg are 2mm thick. The Frying pan with 30cm diameter (2511-30) weights 2kg and has 3l volume.
> 
> Mazzetti pans - the bottom is indeed hammer finished - the 'flatness' of the bottom is within 0.5mm. They have attached a photo where one can see reflection of the background and the image is indeed slightly distorted.
> 
> The million dollar question is indeed - how much effect will this not perfectly flat surface have on the performance of the pan.
> 
> Here is the image:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_W4o1WUz__a3NiVENmQ0JuNDBMa0syci1nc2UwQmtYdU8w/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> It may be of interest to know that the silver clad 30 cm pan (8cm tall with two loop handles) weights 3.2kg without the handle and costs 390 without the lid (or 520 with the lid - that makes it 130 just for the lid).
> 
> Please note that I am only sharing this information to help others, not to promote Mazzetti (or any other maker for that matter)



Thanks for sharing Matus, this thread is very interesting to me as I am also thinking of getting some copperware


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## psfred

I got bitten by the copper bug this summer, and have acquired a nearly full set of stuff from various places, mostly eBay.

Re-tinning can be easily, if sloppily, done on the gas grill or turkey fryer burner, some fiberglass insulation, and paste solder flux. Watch you don't burn yourself, but it's not all that difficult to get a fairly even layer of tin on the inside of the pan. 4% silver in tin food grade solder works well too. DO NOT DO THIS INSIDE!!!! Hydrochloric acid vapor is nasty stuff. 

You do not want 1.5mm copper. Rule of thumb is that copper and cast iron should weight about the same for the same capacity vessel for best results. This is true no matter what heating system you have other than induction, since induction will NOT work unless you have magnetic steel attached to the bottom. Thin copper is better than thin aluminum or plain stainless, but you are not getting the full benefit. 2mm is much better, and 2.5mm is about optimum. 3mm won't hurt anything but your back -- you will NOT be flipping anything in a 3mm saute pan.

For used stuff, stay with cast iron handles, three rivets per handle, and heavy and you will be fine. Baumalu makes quite a bit of nice 2mm copper -- I have some I bought new -- so you should not overlook them. 

If you have a radiant heat electric stove don't polish the bottom of the pans, let them turn black. I believe there is something on the market that will help you there. Polished pans will reflect the heat back into the element and cause it to turn off, hence the pan will heat very slowly and not get really hot until is tarnishes and darkens. Once it is no longer shiny it will work fine.

You can often get well used copper cookware with the tin badly worn quite inexpensively, so if you can re-tin yourself, it's cheaper than new tri-ply when you find it. You probably won't get a whole set at once, but shop on eBay, they turn up at fairly reasonable prices for the off brand stuff. Lots of places made copper 50 years ago, and a lot of it is collecting dust. You do need to be careful to check the thickness though -- there is a lot of decorative stuff out there much to light to use for cooking.

I love my copper, may get rid of the Tramontina tri-ply I bought first when I finally decided I was done with Mom's Farberware.

Peter


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## Matus

Thank you Peter, that is a lot of practical advice (non reflecting bottom is definitely a good one!). I would probably not attempt to re-tin an old pan as I do not have the tools or a garden where I could give it a try.

I would love the get a Mazzetti pan and since they cost arm and leg, I am thinking to pick a smaller pan (some sort of Mauviel) that would serve as 'proof of principle' before I would pay some 400 for a big one. I am actually toying with the idea of waiting a little longer and make a longer vacation in the spring and pick up the pan personally. That would be great 

I am interested in Mazzetti not only because the lining is silver, but they simply have the right shape I am after. The second choice would be Falk, but according to Funkola the brushed interior tends to stick, so I am not sure about that.


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## EdipisReks

I have mostly tinned copper (different brands, some very old, some modern Mauviel and Baumalu), and the one steel lined pan I have is a 2.5 Mauviel. The steel lining stuck to food very badly until I evened it out out and put a semi-mirror polish on the steel. I would hate to use an actually brushed steel interior. Honestly, I like my old first generation All-Clad Master Chef at least as much as the steel lined Mauviel. The tinned copper is very different, and I love it. I would love to try silver lined, and visiting the Mazzetti shop has been on my list of things to do, for a while.


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## Matus

May I ask what tools & materials did you use to polish the stainless steel interior?


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## EdipisReks

Matus said:


> May I ask what tools & materials did you use to polish the stainless steel interior?



Various grits of sandpaper followed by polishing compound.


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## Matus

Could you please be a bit more specific - last time I took sandpaper to stainless steel was a disaster (probably too low grit). What type of polishing compound should work? Did you do the polishing by hand, or did you use some powered tool?


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## EdipisReks

Matus said:


> Could you please be a bit more specific - last time I took sandpaper to stainless steel was a disaster (probably too low grit). What type of polishing compound should work? Did you do the polishing by hand, or did you use some powered tool?



It's been a long time since I did this, so I can't get super specific. I did everything by hand. I think I started with 800 grit wet/dry, and then followed it with finer grit paper, going in circular motions, following the existing grind marks. I probably used Flitz metal polish, as the last step.


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## Mucho Bocho

Jacob, Lets see some pics? I'm curious too as I have a couple of Falks that are brushed SS and I've never had sticking problems but I'd like to see what they look like too.


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## EdipisReks

There's not really much to see! All I did was smooth it out. I do that with a lot of pans, as thoroughly polishing interiors doesn't seem very popular, these days (comparing new All-Clad to old All-Clad makes this very obvious, for instance).


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## Matus

Thanks Jacob. I will keep that info should I need to do that in the future.


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## Matus

I am more and more considering to get a used pan or sauteuse off eBay and since most of those are tinn clad I would like to ask how to differentiate between 'still usable' and 'not usable without re-tinning'. To my eye most seems to fall in the second category, but I may be wrong here. if you would happen to have some sample images it would be great.

thanks


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## Chifunda

EdipisReks said:


> ...thoroughly polishing interiors doesn't seem very popular, these days (comparing new All-Clad to old All-Clad makes this very obvious, for instance).



Can't be nearly as bad as the difference between older Lodge cast iron and current production.:disdain:


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## Matus

I have just came across silver lined copper ware with stainless handles from Georg Jensen called Taverna. It's from 60' and 70'. They commit rather high prices thug still less than new stainless clad coper ware. Thickness is 2mm.

Do you guys have any experience with these?


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## EdipisReks

Matus said:


> I have just came across silver lined copper ware with stainless handles from Georg Jensen called Taverna. It's from 60' and 70'. They commit rather high prices thug still less than new stainless clad coper ware. Thickness is 2mm.
> 
> Do you guys have any experience with these?



They are supposed to be very good.


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## EdipisReks

Chifunda said:


> Can't be nearly as bad as the difference between older Lodge cast iron and current production.:disdain:



no, not that bad!


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## Matus

OK, on my search for a copper pan (I seem to be getting fixated on silver lining) I have just "discovered" a copany in Turky http://www.soy.com.tr/ that offers some amazingly looking tin and silver plated copper cookware with wall thickness from 2.0 to 3.0 mm. 

Might be of interest to some. Should anyone around here have any sort of experience please share


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## EdipisReks

Definitely interesting looking pans, and from the Etsy page, it seems that they aren't charging more for the silver lining (at least on the frypan I looked at). Nice find!


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## apathetic

EdipisReks said:


> Definitely interesting looking pans, and from the Etsy page, it seems that they aren't charging more for the silver lining (at least on the frypan I looked at). Nice find!



+1


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## Matus

And they also reply very fast to questions - always a plus in my book. Reading a little more on their webpage one also get (for non pro use) lifelong warranty and free of charge re-tinning or re-silvering. And given that the prices for the smaller items are rather reasonable - I am seriously considering to give them a try and maybe later get a large pan if I like using the product.

But I have also came across one very nice frying pan from Cohr that is in excellent shape for a reasonable price. So many options suddenly


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## Matus

I forgot to add - on their webpage SoyTurkie mention both iron and bronze handles, but I was told that their irony handles were discontinued 2 years ago. But at the same time (I expressed my concerns about the bronze heating up too fast) I was told that their handles have some particular design that should keep the heating up better than other bronze handles. Of course - without actually using such a handle that remains just a statement from the sales person, but if true it would be welcome.


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## sharpmaker

Matus said:


> Hi,
> 
> our Greenpan (28cm, 8cm tall) seems to be approaching its end and I am looking to replace it with a different one. The surface on the Greenpan (some sort of ceramics) held up reasonably long, but its anti-sticking properties diminished quite a bit. On top of that the pan takes ages to heat up on our glass stove (not inductive).
> 
> After I have heard about the copper pans I became interested about them. It just seems that there are different types and quite a few makers and I am getting a bit lost. I have started to first look at Mauviel, but obviously there are quite a few others.
> 
> For the start - what is the difference between stainless clad copper (like Mauviel Herigtage) and tinn clad one (like Mauviel Tradition)? And what about the pans with silver surface (like Mazzetti)?
> 
> I am opened to your advices and suggestions.
> 
> thanks



If you're looking to replace that sorta-kinda-not-really-nonstick-anymore ceramic pan, and want copper, you should look at Anolon Nouvelle Copper which has copper and aluminum AND anodized aluminum and Teflon for super performance.


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## Matus

sharpmaker said:


> If you're looking to replace that sorta-kinda-not-really-nonstick-anymore ceramic pan, and want copper, you should look at Anolon Nouvelle Copper which has copper and aluminum AND anodized aluminum and Teflon for super performance.



Thanks. I have so for only briefly checked it out, but I am a bit skeptic. The bottom of the pan is composed of sandwich of 0.5mm stell, 2mm aluminum, 0.5mm copper, 2mm aluminum. In other word - it is aluminum pan with little copper added. Of course - the copper does not aid heat conductivity of the pan, but it may slightly improve the heat distribution across the surface of the pan. But in total I do not think this pan would fare considerably better than our aging greenpan in terms of heat conductivity.

Currently I am actually trying to persuade my wife that a copper pan would be a good idea


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## EdipisReks

I received a stainless-interior 5.25 qt Matfer-Bourgeat saute pan today, and I thought people might be interested in what the interior looks like:





The fit and finish on this is way better than on any Mauviel pan I've owned or used or seen. The chamfers on the rolled edge are perfect, and there are no rough spots anywhere. Can't wait to use it tomorrow.


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## Casaluz

I am sorry to be late to the party. I have a few comments for you to consider. From my experience with copper pans. i have Mauviel, DeBuyer, and Falk in copper. As it was pointed out before, Dehillerin in Paris is wonderful to purchase copper and they are very responsive via email if you write them, their website is user friendly and in a couple of languages and they ship anywhere but the weight makes it too expensive unless you purchase several pieces at the same time. I have heard also that they make the Mauviel lines but cannot confirm. For either the Dehillerin or Mauviel versions you should know that the 1.5 mm is not considered cookware and instead is considered serveware for presentation purposes. Only the thick one is considered. The literature on thickness is a bit misleading in the sense that although copper transmits heat well and fast, the thickness is associated with the amount of energy stored and transfered (there is a great article in egullet about pans, shapes, and materials, I will see if I can dig it out and post it. I have both thickness and have cooked with both and the difference is notable when the thick ones are used, but I did not know that when I purchased the first few and was trying to save money thinking that copper would compensate for the thinness. In my opinion it does not and therefore coincide with the denomination of cookware only for 2.5 mm from Dehillerin. mauviel has several lines that is a bit confusing, the 150 and heritage are serveware (although obviously you can cook with them as well) and 250 is cookware. The letter at the end corresponda to the meal for the handles, with c for cast iron (my choice for its beautiful traditional look), and other choices in bronze or stainless steel.
All my pans are stainless steel lined while my family has tin lined from old Mauviel and a few italian makers, and Dehillerin with close friends. I personally would not buy the tin lined because of maintenance and heating requirements to protect the tin layer impose extra work that I prefer not to do, and in addition it is necessary to retin the pan once in a while depending on use. I love the stainless steel lined pans. Better cooks than I am swear by the tin lined, for me it is convenience that drives me to stainless steel lined. It is also a much newer and recent technology that was invented actually by Falk. Of all these brands, I like Falk the best hands down, rounded lips in the pans, beautiful brushed copper that makes maintenance easier, brushed steel that helps with the food cooking (I do not understand why but it is better than the polished steel from Mauviel). Falk USA dropped their distributor a couple of years ago and opened their own distribution and they are much, much easier and responsive to deal with than before. With any choice, Thick copper is worth it and cooks like a dream but it is really expensive.
Along the way of using these pans I discovered a cheaper alternative that cooks almost as well, they are still very beautiful to have and are cheaper (and also work with induction if you ever want to do the jump), and that is the Mauviel M'Cook line. It is impecably designed and cooks better than my All Clads, even the D5 line, and I do not think that the copper core line is worth it in comparison. Please note that all of these lines and brands are fenomenal, I just have preference after having cooked with all of them, but it si only one personal opinion that should be taken with a healthy pinch of salt. By the way, the Mauviel M'Cook has a version with the cast iron handle that is beautiful but you can choose it with stainless steel. The other alternative is as good as the M'Cook, it is DeBuyer Affinity (multi clad with 7layers)


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## Matus

EpidisReks
- that pan looks great indeed. Please do let us know how you like it once it gets some use. I would be in particular interested to hear about food sticking as I have heard two kind of opinions - one that polished pans stick more and one that polished pans stick less.

Casaluz
- thank you. You make a lot of valid points. I have no problem believing that 2.5mm pan cooks better than 1.5 - one needs to realize that the 2.5mm pan is 66% thicker and so it must redistribute the head across the pan much better - that is physics.
- you mention the Mauviel M'cook cookware - do you use them with electric glass-top stove or gas? We have the electric one and after some experience with thick-ish low end stainless pots (to cook water takes very long as the electric stove will not give you as high temperature as gas) I would hesitate to buy similar product.
- I am still drooling around the copper pans - did not order one yet (my wife is not too crazy about the weight). Once I will finally do that it will either be Falk or silver lined SoyTurkiye (which means that on top of the high price is shipping and VAT). The funny thing is - apart from the 'try-me' offer from Falk the prices for a pan of given size are pretty much the same. Dehillerin would be somewhat cheaper.


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## Casaluz

Matus, I use gas, but I know that in Europe is not so common (I am from Spain). The Mauviel M'Cook line has aluminum inside of the sandwich of layers of steel which gives it a much faster responsiveness (along with the extra thickness helping) than cheap stainless steel which has the worst heat conduction of all materials, perhaps that is why it was so slow. For you being in Germany you should talk to Falk directly in Belgium and the price should be differnt tahnwhat you see in Falk USA. Also the shipping from Dehillerin should be cheaper but you have to deal with VAT . If your heart is set on the copper, go ahead and invest in thick copper lined with stainless steel. You will be making an investment that can be easily sold if you do not like it, but i am almost certain that you will love them. I love mine and my only regret is not having chosen thick copper in all of them from the beginning. I would say that Dehilerin and Falk are equally superb, however you should consider an important issue in aesthetics. Dehillerin has a polished finish in the copper, the traditional polissh that you expect from copper and see in pictures and movies, while Falk has a brushed finish that enhances the natural copper colour and is a lot easier to clean and mantain than the polished version from Dehilerin, Mauviel and DeBuyer. It is a matter of taste and nothing more. I love Falk.


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## EdipisReks

Matus said:


> EpidisReks
> - that pan looks great indeed. Please do let us know how you like it once it gets some use. I would be in particular interested to hear about food sticking as I have heard two kind of opinions - one that polished pans stick more and one that polished pans stick less.



The pan was out of this world good. I made risotto with it. There was almost no sticking, except what you want (i.e., easily dislodged) and I had side-to-side simmering on the lowest heat setting of the sister-in-law's decent LG glass topped electric range. Just an amazing pan, absolutely worth every penny, and it wasn't cheap (though no more expensive than a good gyuto, these days). I can't wait to use it on gas and my quasi-French Top (I have two 10 inch bellacopper plates covering two of my burners) at home.

I can tell stories of the turkey as well, if people want. 24 hour brine (I do a basic brine these days, as I just don't notice much difference with aromatics and all that ****)->sous vide (18 hours at 140F for dark meat, 2.5 hours at 140F for light meat, in bags with sage, oregano, black pepper and duck fat) followed by a pre-sear with the Searzall, then a deep frying, then a salt application, then a post-sear with the Searzall, which made, by far, and I mean far, far, far and away, the best turkey I've ever had, but that wouldn't be talking about the copper pan. 

I used an old 70s vintage 3 qt, and 3.5mm thick at the edge, tinned copper sauce pan (not sure of brand, it just says Made in France, but the handle seems like Mauviel) for the stock, with the risotto, and it was amazing. That pot was one of the best gifts I've ever been given. I also discovered that Velveeta (I was asked to make a broccoli dish, don't ask) dissolves tin, so my 70s vintage amazing pan, as mentioned, which already nearly needed a re-tinning, now seriously needs a re-tinning.


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## EdipisReks

The M'Cook stuff is okay, but in the US you can get All-Clad seconds for the same money, and from what I've measured, the M'Cook line is no thicker than current All-Clad, and nowhere nearly as well finished. All-Clad knows how to finish a pan. I love my old first line All-Clad MasterChef from decades ago (I have five pieces, including the important 10 and 12 inch skillets). Old, old All-Clad is the best non-copper cookware I've used, and not that expensive on eBay, in America. And the cast stainless handles of the old All-Clad are amazing for grip.


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## EdipisReks

And the risotto was outrageously good, but nobody else liked it: even though I cooked the rice far longer than I like, it wasn't "done." Ingrates. The sous vide carrots were well appreciated, though I had to cook them until soft, for typical American tastes, which hurt me inside. Sorry Matus, Thanksgiving talk.


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## Matus

You make me hungry, Epidis  I definitely want to hear the turkey story!


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## EdipisReks

Well, I guess I kinda already told it...


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## Matus

big update: I just ordered 28cm sauce pan (the one with stainless steel long and helper handles) - I managed to get the same 'try me' offer discount on this pan instead on the small one (idea of Kaleo from chowhound forum). It should arrive soon - I am really curios about it! I will share once I will learn how to use it. I already know that the pan should be seasoned (there is description directly on the Falk webpage) and I will follow those instructions.

This also means that the silver plated copper pan will not happen anytime soon. I had hard time enough to persuade my lovely wife to allow me to order this one. She is yet to be convinced that it was a sense full investment. Let's hope that will be the case


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## EdipisReks

Exciting news! It shouldn't need any seasoning, though, not sure what that refers to.


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## Matus

*Here* is the seasoning process Falk recommends for their pans. I read very similar recommendations elsewhere too.


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## EdipisReks

Matus said:


> *Here* is the seasoning process Falk recommends for their pans. I read very similar recommendations elsewhere too.



Totally unnecessary.


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## Matus

EdipisReks said:


> Totally unnecessary.



Hmm, interesting. I thought that seasoning would sort of speed up the process of the surface becoming less sticky than brand new stainless surface. My experience (though only low end stainless pots) has been, that stuff may stick to the surface relatively easily. I would be interested to hear about your experience.


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## Mucho Bocho

I've had issues with food sticking to stainless steel pans too. It doesn't matter if their fancy or utility pans. I read the seasoning suggestions by Falk and agree with Jacob, absolute non-sense. Seasoning Stainless. Its a contradiction in terms. 

Preheating a pan is always important but its critical for stainless. I've found two techniques useful for stick free stainless.

1.) Put the pan on the stove under a low flame and give the whole pan a chance to warm for four or five minutes. Then raise heat, add fat, allow to warm for a few seconds, then add food. 

2.) Pre warm pan, add a little fat, then wipe out pan with a paper towel, then add more fat and then add food. 

Begin rant...
I gave up non-stick pans five or six years ago and have never looked back. Personally, I do almost all of my high to med-high saute, pan frying, searing meat, eggs in seasoned carbon Debuyers. I like stainless for things like bacon, and veggies and liquid foods. Some people like Zweffle (Danny), have taken seasoning carbon steel pans to an art form. The insides are perfectly covered with a layer of carbon that is entirely non-stick. Its nice but not necessary. I have seven Carbon De Buyer pans (including a shallow roasting pan), and they all have various levels of patina/darkening, but non are completely covered. 

SS is nice for braising, but cast iron clad enamel still better. I have two Falks, 12" saute and 3 QT sauteuse that rarely get used. I think its because they are so high maintenance (this coming from a guy who loves maintenance) and they're heavy to move around. I can't just chuck them in the dishwasher like I can SS pan. So they have to be hand washed, dried and polished every time I use them. I know some leave the copper unpolished, but that aggravated my Virgo-ness too much. End rant...


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## Matus

Thanks - I'll guess I try that first and see how that works for me. Not a rant at all - looks like user experience to me.

Accidentally I am considering one of the de Buyer Pans to replace our teflon aluminium non-stick pan (which reached its EOL). The price is very reasonable - pretty much like average non stick pan, but I am not sure whether it would not be too heavy for my wife (she made it clear to me, that it will be ME using and ME washing the 3.5kg heavy Falk pan). Should I be getting one it would be either 30 (12") or 32 (13") cm pan - either Mineral B or that 'blue force' which are a bit lighter as they are only 2 mm thick. But I first want to see how the copper Falk works for me (us) before any further pan purchase.


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## apathetic

I have the debuyer mineral B pans and they are heavy, so I am pretty sure your wife won't want to use it. But once you use it, you will never go back to non stick. The blue steel version is 1.8kg for 30cm according to the listing.


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## EdipisReks

I have no trouble flipping food with one hand with a 12" carbon steel pan, but I'm a pretty big guy. Unless your wife is also a pretty big guy, that might be a skip, unfortunately, as they are great pans.


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## EdipisReks

Interesting that All-Clad has a real copper line, now. They don't seem to mention thickness, but the pans are in the right weight range. Prices aren't awful.


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## Mucho Bocho

Nice score. But personally I don't need anymore non-induction capable cookware. I wonder if AC makes the material and if it's US made.


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## EdipisReks

I got to handle some All-Clad C2, today. Seems to be about 2mm, and certainly not as thick as 2.5mm French copper, to my eyes and fingers. I didn't have calipers with me, and eyeballing pan thickness can be difficult. The same ergonomics as the D5 line, which is nice.


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