# Advice on whetstones purchase



## Helmore (Apr 30, 2020)

Hey folks,

I recently bought a Tojiro Shirogami Nakiri to get a feel for and learn to take care of a Japanese carbon knife. Now I know this knife isn't exactly high end, but I thought it was a nice way to see if it was something for me. All I currently have are some stainless steel knives I got after saving some 'points' at the local supermarket (most of the Dutch members here will be familiar with the Vivo AH deal). My parents do have a really nice carbon steel Robert Herder chef's knife, which I think has a really nice blade. I never really understood why they have it though, as my mom does everything in hand with a Herder peeling knife and my dad isn't very good with knife skills either. Needless to say, that knife isn't that well taken care of, being incredibly dull, with some chipping along its edge and the handle seems a bit rough.

I currently have hardly any sharpening experience. I recently tried sharpening a Zwilling chef's knife with what I believe is this combo stone: Zwilling Twin Pro combi stone 32505-100, grit 250 / 1000
This was at my parents' place. They had the knife laying uncovered in a drawer and that stone laying around somewhere, unused. Now, I didn't really like using that stone as it was very very easy to dig into it with the knife and I'd like something slightly bigger.

That said, I did overal like the experience of sharpening a knife. It's kind of relaxing and the result can be pretty rewarding. That started my search for some sharpening stones for myself. So first I looked for the cheapest I could find that was a bit larger than the Zwilling. Then I read some more and wanted to get the King KDS 1000/6000. Reading some more I started to hesitate between the King and the Imanishi/Bester 1000/6000 combo stone. After reading some more I was almost set to pull the trigger on a Shapton Pro 1000 and a Pro 5000 set of stones.

Well anyway, you can probably see the trend. The more I read on the internet and the more I watched about it on Youtube, the more expensive my choices started to become. So now I'm here for some advice. My main problem for me is that I want to buy the perfect kit right from the start, but perfect is the enemy of good enough and I end up not deciding on anything. So here goes my long list of options (the pricing is for ordering from knivesandtools.com):

Option one:
• Naniwa Dressing Stone €9
• Naniwa Pro 800 €63
• Naniwa Holder €27
• Shapton Glass *HC* 4000 €44
Total: €140
Main concern, will I need anything courser or not? Mainly for the removal of some chips along the knife edge here, not for thinning.

Option two:
• Naniwa Dressing Stone €9
• Naniwa Holder €30
• Shapton Glass HR 1000 €45
• Shapton Glass HR 4000 €50
Total: €134
Again, will I need anything courser? I could switch out the Glass 1000 for the Glass 500 here. The Glass 500 would be €37, making the set €126 and it is actually in stock at knivesandtools.com. Getting both the 500 and the 1000 seems a bit redundant, but I think I'd prefer to learn on a 1000 instead of a 500.

Option three:
• Naniwa Dressing Stone €9
• Naniwa Holder €30
• Shapton Glass HR 320 €36
• Shapton Glass HR 1000 €45
• Shapton Glass *HC* 4000 €44
• Total: €164
Seems the most complete to me, but I'm now €30 up from option two.

For now no flattening stone. Shapton seems to wear slow enough to be able to get away with the occasional sandpaper option. Otherwise, from metal-master the Atoma 400 would be €64 or the Atoma 140 for €68.50, both assuming no import duties (which seems unlikely to be the case.) Otherwise €85 for the 400 and €90 for the 140. That would make a likely option four:

Possible option four:
• Naniwa Holder €30
• Atoma 400 €85
• Shapton Glass HR 1000 €45
• Shapton Glass HR 4000 €50
Total: €210
Could go +€5 for the Atoma 140, but the 400 seems more practical for chip removal and such minor repairs without then also needing something between the Atoma and the SG1000.

Option five (from fine-tools.com):
• Shapton Pro 1000 €43
• Shapton Pro 5000 €68
Total: €121 (that includes €10 shipping)
Here a Naniwa Dressing stone would be an extra €7, an Atoma 400 would be €77 and the 140 would be €85. So €198 for Atoma 400, SP1000 and SP5000. This set would assume that I'd use the boxes the Shaptons come is as the base to sharpen on (I'd have to improvise if sharpening on the Atoma). Using the Shapton Pro case as storage and stone holder during sharpening would make them ideal for quick touch ups. Just store them close as hand and take one out whenever you feel like it.

Or maybe I'm overthinking this all too much.

Now, before people start throwing around many more other suggestions. I live in a pretty small apartment of around 25 m² or so, which makes me go for splash and go stones. Any stone that needs more than a handful of hours to dry or needs to permasoak just becomes too much of a hassle given the limited amount of space I have to work with. Maybe years from now when I have more space, some soaking stones may become an option. For the kinds of knives, I'll see myself sharpening some simple stainless steel knives to practice on and for friends and family, but I want to get into carbon knives for myself. I really like the feel of that Herder carbon steel blade and I'm curious what a Japanese carbon steel blade will be like. Somewhere in the future I'd like to purchase something like a Kaeru Kasumi White Gyuto 210mm or a Shiro Kamo 210 mm Gyuto (I'll look into that later).

Now a question: How big is the difference between the Shapton Glass HR or HC 4000? Especially when you start using it on different sorts of steel? They'll both do carbon steel well presumably, but what if I may end up with an SG-2/R-2 steel blade for example? I don't really see myself using anything higher than a 1000 grit on a stainless steel knife, so wouldn't care much about what it's like for that.

Back to the options I listed, my preference would be for option 2, with the SG1000 and SG4000 HR. As I said, not sure about going for the SG500 over the SG1000 here. Going for the SG500 would give me an easier time with heavier repairs, but those may not happen that often (hopefully, though given the way knives are treated at my parents' place, who knows). Learning on an SG1000 instead of an SG500 seems more ideal as well though. This consideration would make option three seem much more well rounded, but I'm not sure of the extra 30 euros is worth it for me as of now. That's the same reason why any of the sets with one of the Atoma's just isn't for me, way too expensive for my use case. I bought a €45 knife, to then use €200 in sharpening tools seems a bit odd to me. Maybe I should just get a Naniwa Nagura, Naniwa Pro 800 and Naniwa holder for €96 total and call it a day. Ugh. So hard to choose.

Wow. That turned into a really really long post. Hopefully it's not too long. Also, it may be helpful if there was also some kind of questionnaire such as in the knife section. For that reason, ask away on anything I may not have covered.

I'm mainly interested in hearing your opinions on what set to choose and why you'd recommend me that. Or maybe you can offer an alternative option. Readily available shops for me would be knivesandtools.com, fine-tools.com and dictum.de. Anyway, thanks for any and all advice you may have.


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## M1k3 (Apr 30, 2020)

Hmmm... Glass 120 or 220, 500 (double thick if you can swing it) and 4k?

For sharpening you can definitely go from the Glass 500 to 4k. The 500 stone can be a finisher for softer steels. You could hold off on the 120 or 220 for now if you don't have big chips to repair. I'm recommending the Glass stones because of the possibility of sharpening R2.


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## esoo (Apr 30, 2020)

The Tojiro Nakiri is a pretty robust knife - unless you start taking to frozen food, I wouldn't worry about chipping it. I have the grinding finish version of the same knife and it is abused (spatchcocking a chicken anyone?) and not chipped.

I might suggest the following:
Shapton Pro 1K
Shapton Glass 4K.

The Shapton Pro is a pretty decent stone and you can do a lot of heavy work with it. The case works as the stone holder - and it holds the Glass Stone perfectly. This will set you up for pretty much anything except thinning and major repair. Later you can consider adding something like the Glass 500 extra thick if needed.


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## Simme (Apr 30, 2020)

If i had to start over it would be with a mix of shapton glass/pro or sigmas.
so as Esoo said get the shapton pro 1k + a finishing stone some options here 





Stone Review Thread - 3-6K Synthetics...


Here are some thoughts on the 3-6K synthetic stones I’ve tried… JNS Red Aoto Matukusuyama: This is one of the stones Shigefusa use in their progression… That has to tell you something off the bat. This is not an ordinary stone… First off, what is it? It’s a giant resinoid brick...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Then atoma 400 and the double thick 500 glass when needed.

Another option is Dmd vetrified diamond stones from alibaba.

They are hard stones, and i don't know if i would like them when i was starting out, but now i love them. They come in 1000, 3000, 6000 and 12000.


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## Carl Kotte (May 1, 2020)

To start out I would buy only one stone: Shapton pro 1k. The box doubles as a stoneholder. It’s fast enough at removing steel so you can use it for repair work. And it forces you to learn pressure control and technique. No need to buy too much stuff when starting out. Good luck!


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## adam92 (May 1, 2020)

I think holder is not necessary, if you care about money, sometimes i use table cloth & works fine for me, i think start learning from 1k might be better, 1k can repair minor chips as well, atoma 400 is very good choice for thinning & flatten others stone. 

My advice would be 400 & 1000 for start...


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

Problem is, it doesn't work like that. To put things in perspective, you want to buy the Porsche, but you can't drive. I know all those Shaptons look great, but they don't really allow to experience the most important things the same way. 
Skipping steps will hurt your understanding and development. 
So, I'm thinking some middle of the roade here, something like King 1000 (maybe even 800 or maybe Bester 1200), Rika 5000, cheap stone holder if necessary (works exactly the same, saves you some money) and a double diamond plate.


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## Helmore (May 1, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> So, I'm thinking some middle of the roade here, something like King 1000 (maybe even 800 or maybe Bester 1200), Rika 5000, cheap stone holder if necessary (works exactly the same, saves you some money) and a double diamond plate.


I'm specifically opting for splash and go, as my really small apartment makes going for a soaking stone rather impractical. A splash and go also seems more convenient for quick touch ups. I do understand your advice about trying to learn in a Porsche though.

Thanks for all the other advice given thus far. I'll comment on what the other have said when I have the time later today.


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## mpier (May 1, 2020)

I’ve only been sharpening knives for about six months or so and I went down the same rabbit hole as far as what stones to get. When I finally came up for air and after trying some different stones my friends had I came to the realization that I wanted good stones that would last a long time. I ended up getting the original Naniwa Chosera with the base attached. They are thick, hard and I think it is important to have a base or holder for hand clearance. After using other stones nothing compares to these stones. You only really need three of them the ss400 for rough grind the ss800 will take you all the way to a 1500 with less pressure and the ss3000 which may be one the best stones ever made. If you do get these stones a cheap rubber mat will keep them from sliding around, and they do take a little more care a far as keeping them clean and letting them dry naturally. They all come with a cleaning stone and if you use it to buff out your lead edges they will not dish on you. I have now sharpened about 80 knives on my 800 and 3000 and they are still flat. I have become a little addicted to sharpening and I have picked up the entire set of Chosera except the 10000 got the 8000 Snow White instead. If you really want that ultra sharp glowing edge you my want to pick up a strop as well.


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## adam92 (May 1, 2020)

If convenient is important than go for th e shapton pro or glass, i have pro but i heard glass is different level. Much more better than pro, I'll buy glass in future.


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## Ruso (May 1, 2020)

You probably want something in 300-600 grit as well - especially if you are planning on sharpening dull and cheap knives for practice purposes. This will teach you much more and much quicker about the burr than 1K will.


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## adam92 (May 1, 2020)

Ruso said:


> You probably want something in 300-600 grit as well - especially if you are planning on sharpening dull and cheap knives for practice purposes. This will teach you much more and much quicker about the burr than 1K will.


But also will lose more steel if sharpen too much...


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## Cliff (May 1, 2020)

I have the glass stones in an apartment -- they are the most practical you can get and excellent. I'm curious for those who use the pro: how quickly do they dry? That's at least as big a part of the practicality of the glass stones as the splash and go. I have a Chosera that's basically splash and go, but it takes much longer to dry


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

Helmore said:


> I'm specifically opting for splash and go, as my really small apartment makes going for a soaking stone rather impractical. A splash and go also seems more convenient for quick touch ups. I do understand your advice about trying to learn in a Porsche though.
> 
> Thanks for all the other advice given thus far. I'll comment on what the other have said when I have the time later today.



At least start with one and learn. Sell it later if you have to. You don't lose money, you gain experience at a very reasonable price (no one says to buy big and you don't see that very often). One tupperware for one stone is manageable. I understand the desire. It's that things get so much better following the right path. And you seem like you aim high, so even more of a good reason. 
Here, we gain nothing. Most of us will get back to our stones at a certain level for personal needs and/or preferences, most of us have or had many types and so on. Some of us deal with people that are starting to learn and see different outcomes. It's definitely a process. You develop skill. Skill that is shaped by interactions. 
At the end of the day, anything will/might work. Anything you mentioned will sharpen a knife. You decide how. Or how important it is to you.


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## Ruso (May 1, 2020)

adam92 said:


> But also will lose more steel if sharpen too much...


Thats why you practice on cheap dull knives that you and your family have lying around in the drawers already. 




Cliff said:


> I have the glass stones in an apartment -- they are the most practical you can get and excellent. I'm curious for those who use the pro: how quickly do they dry? That's at least as big a part of the practicality of the glass stones as the splash and go. I have a Chosera that's basically splash and go, but it takes much longer to dry



I have Pro 1K and 320 - I would say they dry similarly to Naniwa Chosera (Pro). I think this is pretty fast drying but I do not have SG to compare.


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## adam92 (May 1, 2020)

Cliff said:


> I have the glass stones in an apartment -- they are the most practical you can get and excellent. I'm curious for those who use the pro: how quickly do they dry? That's at least as big a part of the practicality of the glass stones as the splash and go. I have a Chosera that's basically splash and go, but it takes much longer to dry


My pro dry pretty fast, 320 & 2k.


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## Famima (May 1, 2020)

Interesting debate. I actually started off with one of the options mentioned - a single Shapton 1000 (pro or whatever it was called before the latest iteration - my one is thicker and bonded to a ceramic base but comes in the same case and appears to have the same formulation). I've learnt to love it but, on reflection, I'd do two things differently and add one observation. First, having since acquired a range of other stones, including a Cerax 1000, I would have been better off by quite some way starting on the Cerax due to the amount of feedback you get from it. I only really started to get on with the shapton once I'd started using other stones. The second is that I would have bought an Atoma 400 from the outset, this is just such a useful thing to have (flattening, fixing chips, etc.) and very space efficient. The observation is that, yes, splash and go is easy, but soaking the Cerax for 10-15mins in the kitchen sink or basin before using is not challenging - it's not like you need a dedicated tank for hours of soaking. I'd relax this requirement in favour of getting an easier to learn on stone to start.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

i suggest shapton glass 1k and 4k, or 500double thick and 3k.

glass dries very very fast. but the shapton pros dry fast too. naniwa pros seems to dry fast but if you put them away with other stones you will quickly find out they were only dry on the surface.

i used the 3k and cheap diamond plate (300ish grit) yesterday on a global. the transition is pretty seamless between these imo. i think it took me about a minute to remove the diamond scratches with the 3k.

when done i just wiped them off and put them away in a locker.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

also just because a stone is hard does not mean it will be hard to use.
one of my buddies learnt to sharpen with shaptons pros and glass.

i have lent him pretty much all stones i have ever owned for him to try out and he still thinks those 2 lines are the best just because they are hard, 
so he feels exactly whats going on. he thinks of it like an on-off switch without any mush in between.

and i kinda agree. sure we all have different preferences. but imo a harder stone will not be harder to use nor harder to learn on.
they just feel different.


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## esoo (May 1, 2020)

I think the only stones that would be hard to learn on would be stones like the Shapton Pro 5k - that stone is so hard it feels like glass with little to no feedback. You can see swarf forming, but there is zero feel. The Shapton Glass 6K has more feedback.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

you should try the spyderco UF, not only does it feels like a piece of glass it abrades at the same speed


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## Helmore (May 1, 2020)

Well, you have all given me a bit to think on. I'm now leaning towards going for one ~1k stone to learn on. I can get everything else at a later time. It's just really tempting to go for two stones at knivesandtools because of their combideal thingie, but that's probably the point (makes you spend more money there).


Famima said:


> I'd relax this requirement in favour of getting an easier to learn on stone to start.


Soaking for say 15 minutes isn't really a problem, it's the drying afterwards. If the stone is fine with drying on a dish rack for up to 12 hours I should be able to manage fine. The air in my apartment can generally be pretty dry, as I let my dishes drip dry on a rack after washing and that happens pretty quickly. Permasoak is right out though. Splash and go is just much more convenient and thus likely to be used much more frequently. That will help with quicker learning.

That Atoma though. It feels hard to justify the cost at €77 for the 400 or €85 for the 140 when I don't really have the experience to say whether having one will really be worth it. Pretty much everyone recommends getting a good diamond plate for lapping though. It's such a pity that shipping costs from JKI are higher than their diamond flattening plate. $55 seems much more palatable, but shipping cost is $58.78 and that makes it cheaper to get an Atoma.

This would be much easier if there weren't so many objective and subjective variables involved and everyone would then just agree on one approach to start with. That would make this a lot less frustrating, but also a lot less fun.


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## M1k3 (May 1, 2020)

If you go Shapton, they dish slowly. So you don't need to rush on the lapping plate. Going 1 stone now is fine. Whether that's a 1k or 500 grit stone. You could always strop on newspaper or some other cheap material for refinement. There's many ways to go about it. The Glass stones are pretty splash and go. And dry quite fast. 10-20 mins or so. If you do go with Shapton Glass, I'd definitely figure out a stone holder solution.


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## Ruso (May 1, 2020)

You can wait on Atoma, even though its the best way to keep the stones flat. Using flat surface and sandpaper or SiC grit works very well to flatten the stones. Its not as at hand and much messier solution, so keep it in mind.

Getting dish resistant stones is another good half-solution as people had mentioned already.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

Helmore said:


> Well, you have all given me a bit to think on. I'm now leaning towards going for one ~1k stone to learn on. I can get everything else at a later time. It's just really tempting to go for two stones at knivesandtools because of their combideal thingie, but that's probably the point (makes you spend more money there).



if you get a 1k to start with i can almost guarantee it you will be getting a finer one almost immediately. the 1k stones dont really make those sharp killer edges to be honest. you can do a lot with just a 1k and its basically up to you and your skill level. but it will never rival a 3 or 4 or 6k for sharpness. it just wont happen.


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

What exactly is a sharp killer edge? Would a shaving edge after Atoma 140 qualify?


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

nope


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

Why do you think so? What would make the edge be killer sharp?


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

here one can see the differences between different grits. 








The Honing Progression


Following the bevel set on the Chosera 1k, the razor was honed on Shapton glass stones; 2k, 4k, 8k and 16k. At each step in the progression, SEM imaging was performed. The side-view ima…




scienceofsharp.com





and we can see the results of an atoma 400 (quite far down the page) to compare with the regular stones,
at the exact same magnification. so its quite easy to compare.








The Diamond Plate Progression


In The Honing Progression entry, an example of apex geometry refinement during honing with Shapton glass stones was presented. A slow, but linear improvement in sharpness and keenness was observed…




scienceofsharp.com


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Why do you think so? What would make the edge be killer sharp?



that it looks like this











and not like this (atoma 400)


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## mpier (May 1, 2020)

Inferno is correct a 1000k stone will not give you the desired edge and it may hold you back from learning how to get that refined edge you will ultimately desire and frustrate you in the long run.


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

You see, I found it very interesting when people started to use those fixed systems for controlling pressure and consistency. Why? Out of nowhere a lot of useless stones, stones that are or were usually misinterpreted, delivered the goods beyong any expectation. Just like that. The definition of sharpness and retention just evolved. What was "killer sharp" before, just changed. 
Being able to sharpen to some degree of sharpness, even shave capable edges, just doesn't cut it, does it? Your own words pretty much. 
This is what I wanted you to see.
It's not about not being able to sharpen on glass like hard stones, eventually, give or take depending on the individual. It's about developing skills to achieve killer edges as close as possible to that system. And I'm not alone in this. I've had my fair share of people learning and also talks about this, because of them. There's a consensus, based on many observations. 
Could there be an exception? Sure. It happens. What are the chances everyone is that exception?


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

mpier said:


> Inferno is correct a 1000k stone will not give you the desired edge and it may hold you back from learning how to get that refined edge you will ultimately desire and frustrate you in the long run.


It does exactly the opposite. It will teach you to properly use those high grit stones. But first you need to learn how to walk, before you run.


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## Ruso (May 1, 2020)

No need to rush in this journey. Take it slow and steady. Good 1K edge is better than no edge and better than rolled 5K edge.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> You see, I found it very interesting when people started to use those fixed systems for controlling pressure and consistency. Why? Out of nowhere a lot of useless stones, stones that are or were usually misinterpreted, delivered the goods beyong any expectation. Just like that. The definition of sharpness and retention just evolved. What was "killer sharp" before, just changed.
> Being able to sharpen to some degree of sharpness, even shave capable edges, just doesn't cut it, does it? Your own words pretty much.
> This is what I wanted you to see.
> It's not about not being able to sharpen on glass like hard stones, eventually, give or take depending on the individual. It's about developing skills to achieve killer edges as close as possible to that system. And I'm not alone in this. I've had my fair share of people learning and also talks about this, because of them. There's a consensus, based on many observations.
> Could there be an exception? Sure. It happens. What are the chances everyone is that exception?



i dont use any guided systems but my own experience is very similar to what the guy from scienceofsharp describes.



> No significant change in the bevel angle or width at 3 microns occurs after the 4k level. No measurable difference is observed between the 4k and 16k level, other than a reduction in the apex width, observed in the edge-on views (above).
> 
> The convexity near the apex is removed by the 4k level, and the measured geometry is unchanged with higher grits beyond the 4k. Beyond the 4k level, the bevel polish is refined and the edge width is reduced from about 0.3 microns to about 0.1 microns.
> 
> Sharpness is achieved during the bevel setting stage up to 4k grit. Beyond the 4k grit, Keenness improves, but Sharpness is not improved further.



i feel a 500 is basically a fine saw. very good for cutting glass fiber insulation
a 800-1k is finer but i dont actually feel it produces a truly sharp blade. it will cut stuff yes.
2k now it starts getting actually sharp.
3k now its really sharp, this is the lowest i put on my own blades (the crappy ones)
4k now its very very sharp. this is good.

*now this is just what I think*_, _and i guess everyone else on the entire planet have different preferences, but i kinda doubt anyone is questioning that higher grit stones creates sharper edges. because if that was not true there would only be coarse stones now wouldn't it.

ymmv. i use higher grit stones since i feel i get sharper edges out of them, for me its easy as that really.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> But first you need to learn how to walk, before you run.



while this is true, its nice to already have those running shoes at hand when its time to run.


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## mpier (May 1, 2020)

Well I guess we all have different opinions, I learned on an 800 and 3000 and am glad I did and it didn’t take very long to get it right.


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## mpier (May 1, 2020)

I didn’t get higher grit stones until I perfected my technique, but having the 3000 definitely helped and shortened my learning curve


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## Cliff (May 1, 2020)

I learned on a 1K/6K combo stone, and it worked well. It took awhile to get the hang of the 6K side, which is very soft. 

In terms of when does sharp begin, I don't think high grits make the knife sharper. If you don't set a good edge, you're just polishing something lousy. It also depends, a lot, what you intend to cut. I find 1K fine for meat butchery. I would be frustrated when it came to fruit, vegetables, and fish if that's where my progression stopped.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

i guess one could also argue that a high grit stone is the best to learn on since it takes longer for the steel to wear away you have more time to learn and correct your mistakes. 

if you make mistakes with a 500 glass for instance. you could ruin stuff quite fast. well not really "ruin" but you have to redo them at least.

i have sharpened knives with only my 12k shapton pro. it just takes longer than if i had more stones. but its not that slow to be honest.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

mpier said:


> I didn’t get higher grit stones until I perfected my technique, but having the 3000 definitely helped and shortened my learning curve



i think 3k is the magic number. now its truly sharp.


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

inferno said:


> while this is true, its nice to already have those running shoes at hand when its time to run.



Not the same thing. But I did take into account that need anyway. Later it just looked like he had to pick just one due to personal reasons. Middle grit is the sweet spot. We could argue about anything. Heck, we might not even need sharpening stones, any of them.


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## KingShapton (May 1, 2020)

If you only want to start with one stone, then I have a better suggestion - Shapton Pro 1500. The stone is currently on sale at Knivesandtools for less than € 40.

The Shapton Pro 1500 is often overlooked. It's a little finer than the Shapton Pro 1000, but almost as fast. In addition, it is a little harder than the 1000, that means, it dishes even more slowly. And the stone has very good feedback and a very pleasant feeling, almost like the Shapton Pro 2000.

The stone is completely sufficient for stainless steel and fast enough to make minor repairs (chips) with it. You can use the box as a stone holder and at the beginning the stone is fine enough that you can get your knives sharp enough.

To dress/flatten the stone, sandpaper on a hard, flat surface is sufficient at the beginning.

If your technique gets better, you can choose a finer stone, you are very well equipped with this one stone to start with.

Enjoy your journey.


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

inferno said:


> i dont use any guided systems but my own experience is very similar to what the guy from scienceofsharp describes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just saw this. I don't question the results here. Or you in any way regarding this. You didn't even miss the point. You just said I'm right without realising.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

maybe there is no right and wrong. its just all subjective.


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## Helmore (May 1, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> If you only want to start with one stone, then I have a better suggestion - Shapton Pro 1500. The stone is currently on sale at Knivesandtools for less than € 40.


Maybe that sale has passed, as it's priced at €54 when I look. For less than €40 it would've been a steal. Still an option worth considering. Also, it's not that I have to go for a single stone, it's just trying to justify spending so much at such an early stage when I don't (yet) have the kinds of knives that will really make it worth it. At the same time I would like to buy something that'll last me a while and that makes it hard to choose. For now I've been getting by with okayish knives that are good enough to not struggle much with onions and tomatoes, but this also is a bit of a hobby and that makes it worth the extra time and effort.


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## M1k3 (May 1, 2020)

Just get a single stone. 500-2k range. Practice. Get a lapping plate. Practice. Get coarse stone. Practice. Get finer stone. Practice. Then practice more. Just when you think you've got the hang of it, practice more. There's room for improvement.


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## inferno (May 1, 2020)

Helmore said:


> Maybe that sale has passed, as it's priced at €54 when I look. For less than €40 it would've been a steal. Still an option worth considering. Also, it's not that I have to go for a single stone, it's just trying to justify spending so much at such an early stage when I don't (yet) have the kinds of knives that will really make it worth it. At the same time I would like to buy something that'll last me a while and that makes it hard to choose. For now I've been getting by with okayish knives that are good enough to not struggle much with onions and tomatoes, but this also is a bit of a hobby and that makes it worth the extra time and effort.



i would get the glass 500 and 3k. then you can fix chips and get a good edge on there. not too expensive.

i gave my cousin a 500 and 3k and a cheap stone holder. i spent a few hour on teaching him how to use them. we sharpened maybe 6 knives of low to high quality. the last 3 he sharpened all by himself. and the results were competely acceptable. it takes more than that to get really good at it. but now he knows the basics and it will evolve from that with experience.

i'd say you want a coarse stone 100-500 grit, a medium 1k or so. and then maybe 2 fine ones. 3/6k, and then a diamond plate to flatten them. dmt/atoma/ez-lap. but you probably dont need or want all of this right away.

but personally 1 coarse and 1 fine stone is a good start imo. the diamond stone could also be your coarse stone in the beginning, like the dmt C or atoma 400.


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## kayman67 (May 1, 2020)

Helmore said:


> Maybe that sale has passed, as it's priced at €54 when I look. For less than €40 it would've been a steal. Still an option worth considering. Also, it's not that I have to go for a single stone, it's just trying to justify spending so much at such an early stage when I don't (yet) have the kinds of knives that will really make it worth it. At the same time I would like to buy something that'll last me a while and that makes it hard to choose. For now I've been getting by with okayish knives that are good enough to not struggle much with onions and tomatoes, but this also is a bit of a hobby and that makes it worth the extra time and effort.



I don't think there's a single guy here who wants you to get something bad. We just battle numbers. If enough people doing this teaching thing encounter enough people that were able to get better/best results one way and not the others, all we have are the numbers and the experience based on those numbers. For something that is proven to work. You can take any possible stone or stones you want. No one can stop that. Some of us at least, already saw this path many times. Maybe even get the knives sharp to some degree until more numbers show up. Because they tend to do. That's about it. That's the best we can do.


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## M1k3 (May 1, 2020)

P.S. You could get a cheap King 1k stone and throw..er... set that in the tank of your toilet to perma soak. No worrying about mold growth.


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## DHunter86 (May 1, 2020)

mpier said:


> I’ve only been sharpening knives for about six months or so and I went down the same rabbit hole as far as what stones to get. When I finally came up for air and after trying some different stones my friends had I came to the realization that I wanted good stones that would last a long time. I ended up getting the original Naniwa Chosera with the base attached. They are thick, hard and I think it is important to have a base or holder for hand clearance. After using other stones nothing compares to these stones. You only really need three of them the ss400 for rough grind the ss800 will take you all the way to a 1500 with less pressure and the ss3000 which may be one the best stones ever made. If you do get these stones a cheap rubber mat will keep them from sliding around, and they do take a little more care a far as keeping them clean and letting them dry naturally. They all come with a cleaning stone and if you use it to buff out your lead edges they will not dish on you. I have now sharpened about 80 knives on my 800 and 3000 and they are still flat. I have become a little addicted to sharpening and I have picked up the entire set of Chosera except the 10000 got the 8000 Snow White instead. If you really want that ultra sharp glowing edge you my want to pick up a strop as well.


I'd echo this. I love my Choseras, just missing the 400 grit, but the 3000 is my favourite synthetic stone. I have sharpened R2 steel on the 800 and 3000, and have had no issues. If I started over it'd be this setup.


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## mpier (May 2, 2020)

The 400 is a top notch grinder if you get a chance pick one up you won’t regret it! The 800 and 3000 are by far my favorite stones in the set!


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## KingShapton (May 2, 2020)

Helmore said:


> Maybe that sale has passed, as it's priced at €54 when I look. For less than €40 it would've been a steal. Still an option worth considering.


Have a look at knivesandtools.de. I do not know how expensive the postage to the Netherlands is, but with the price below 40, - € it should still be worth it.



Helmore said:


> Also, it's not that I have to go for a single stone, it's just trying to justify spending so much at such an early stage when I don't (yet) have the kinds of knives that will really make it worth it. At the same time I would like to buy something that'll last me a while and that makes it hard to choose.


Don't see it as a single stone, see it as your first stone.

Believe me, the Shapton will last a long time, a long time. Shapton Pros have very little wear and are very good stones. Especially the 1000, 1500 and 2000.

I would like to add a few more things.

It is easy to learn how to sharpen a knife on a Shapton Pro.

The Shapton Pro 1500 is not only a good finisher for stainless steel, it also makes an edge with lots of bite.

I also see many recommendations for Chosera here. I just want to say that these are also good stones, in the end it is simply a matter of personal preference.
I know both and like the Shaptons a lot more.

To the Choseras it has to be said that there is a risk of hairline cracks, but not with the Shaptons. The Shapton Pros dry almost as quickly as the Shapton Glass, the Choseras take significantly longer in comparison.

I know both Shaptons and Choleras, don't be fooled by the fact that the Choleras are thicker, but they wear out faster than the Shaptons.

And since I not only know both stones, I own both stones and can compare them - the Chosera 400 is a very good stone, the Shapton Glass 500 is much better for me. But as I said, it's a matter of personal preference.


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## Carl Kotte (May 2, 2020)

inferno said:


> maybe there is no right and wrong. its just all subjective.


Possibly, but I wouldn’t rule out other possibilities yet (e.g. it could be that there’s a certain and genuine cut off point between sharp and non-sharp, but people are just unequally good at detecting it). Be that as it may, it would surprise me lot if you didn’t experience a properly sharpened, deburred and honed 500-1000 grit edge sharp - in particular if done by a really good sharpener.


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## Helmore (May 2, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> Have a look at knivesandtools.de. I do not know how expensive the postage to the Netherlands is, but with the price below 40, - € it should still be worth it.


That is really interesting. The prices have slight variations on some articles depending on if you look on knivesandtools.eu/.com/.nl or on .de. Shipping under €50 is €3, over that is free. That makes this a really attractive option. 1500 grit is an odd number in an eventually more elaborate lineup, but for that price it is hard to go wrong. It's out of stock, but should have some in 2 week, which is around the same time as my Tojiro Shirogami should be here, so that should work out. Given that 2 week wait, I don't have to choose right this minute though. The Pro 2000 is not much more expensive at €44.

I'm also curious about what other people have to say about inferno's GS500+GS300 suggestion. Would that work well as a starter set? I've seen so many people advising to learn on a good 1000-ish grid stone, that starting with this set seems counter to that. It looks like a pretty well rounded set though. More rounded/complete than going for just one stone. Especially as I have access to some really dull knives with friends and family.

Anyway, I'll order something tomorrow night. I've been spending a bit too much time on researching all this, to the detriment of other things in life. Finally just ordering something should at least lay that to rest and actually get me started on really learning to sharpen some knives.


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## M1k3 (May 2, 2020)

If you're serious about learning sharpening, without just going ham and not checking what's going on periodically, you could use any stone.

That said, I'll give some of my non-expert experience. I regularly use a Glass combo of 500->4k. I only use a middle stone when I am sharpening a few knives that I wouldn't finish at 500 or as high as 4k. Otherwise I just go simple and fast. I wouldn't go 500-8k+ though.. So 500->3k would definitely work.


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## KingShapton (May 3, 2020)

Helmore said:


> 1500 grit is an odd number in an eventually more elaborate lineup,


Keep in mind that the Shapton Pro 1000 is more like a 700-800 grit stone. So the Shapton Pro 1500 is not really 1500, it is something between 1000-1500 grit, more towards 1000.




Helmore said:


> I'm also curious about what other people have to say about inferno's GS500+GS300 suggestion. Would that work well as a starter set? I've seen so many people advising to learn on a good 1000-ish grid stone, that starting with this set seems counter to that. It looks like a pretty well rounded set though


The GS 500+GS 3000 is a really good set. GS 500 will also work with GS 4000, even with GS 6000.

BUT: The GS 500 is a really really fast stone, in my opinion too fast for a beginner. There is a reason for the advice to learn on a good 1000 grit stone. It makes no difference if the stone is 800, 1000 or 1200 grit. All these grits are a good starting point.

Sure, you can start learning on a 500 grit stone. In the best case you will have a steep learning curve and you will learn a lot about pressure control in short time. In the worst case, you will damage your knives and you will unnecessarily significantly shorten the life of your knives.

Ultimately, it's all theoretical, it also depends on your perception, some people find it easier to get started, etc. etc.

Flip a coin and see what happens

I have to ad, in the long run there is nothing to be said against having both stones - the GS 500 and the Pro 1500. In that case you can decide which stone is used depending on the condition and value of the knife.


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## kayman67 (May 3, 2020)

Choices, the most delicate subject of them all since it's taken so personal pretty much always. And before they even realise, most people will defend things that aren't even in question.

What it's usually necessary, when starting, amongst other things, is an ability to react and correct. That's the only reason some stones proved to be better suited than others and can't really be judged based on personal perspective, but by experience and numbers. 
Most of the suggestions just don't react in a way useful to a beginner or in a way he could manage enough or at all. Would they be impossible to use? No, absolutely not. Because it's not about just using them. Yeah, the aim is high. 
When nothing really happens until you start to feel it as second nature, poor techniques develop beyond return and we see it often. It gets even worse when everything is developed upon the previous improper layer.
We should not be talking about what stones are best in general. This is a common mistake I see a lot. It's about what particular stones or just grits (but even those are related to some stones, as grit numbers don't tell the story well enough), with that purpose in mind and based on experience and expectations, are best for developing proper skills, for most people. Once anyone starts dealing with 10, 20, 50, 100 people and observe them, the perspective will eventually change, because what stone I might like or can do with or it's capable of in general, is completely irrelevant for them. 

As a side note, I saw many stones called bad because they didn't behave as others. This doesn't make them bad, just not good for some needs or ways of doing things. So, many times stones are judged based on the capacity of delivering the goods for a specific scenario for certain people. This is no different. 
Should people adjust to all the stones used or understand them? Don't know if they should. The reality is that they usually don't and the results are poor, but they could obviously use those stones.


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## Helmore (May 3, 2020)

I've just been given the Zwilling combo stone I linked to in my first post. Did some sharpening with it as well today. It actually is a full on splash 'n go, pretty quick drying after use too. Didn't use the 250 grit side much today, that one's really coarse and wears really quickly. At 17.3 cm in length it's not very large either. The 1000 grit side is also reasonably soft, fairly easy to gouge if you're not careful. It does leave a pretty nice polish though, didn't really expect that on 1000 grit. I obviously have little to no experience with whetstones, but from all I've read I expected you'd need higher than 1000 grit to get a good polish going. All in all, I came away with a more positive impression of the stone than the previous time I used it.

Also, I learned to really dislike a full bolster on a knife. Really dislike that.

Anyway, having gotten this combi stone makes purchasing new whetstones much less of a necessity. I still want something longer than that 17 cm though. To that end I've decided to go for a Shapton Glass HR 1000 and Glass HR 4000, along with getting a stone holder and an Atoma for flattening. The GS1000 seems like a safer bet to learn on and I want to get some experience with a higher grit stone as well. This combo is €1 more expensive than going for a SP1500 and SG4000, which seems worth it to me . I'll use the coarse side of the combi stone if I need something coarser. If I end up not liking the Shapton stones, they at least won't lose too much value if I wish to sell them.

This will be much more money than I expected to be paying when I started this journey. Going for something that will stay with me for a long time will make that (hopefully) worth it and going for brand names makes resale value higher if not. If I don't decide on this now I will want to buy all the stones and I haven't even really looked at anything over 4/5k. I still want to buy them all, but now I can at least first get good with what I (will) have. I'll start looking into expanding this once I do. (Unless I end up really hating those Shaptons, which I think unlikely).

Next up is a better Chef's Knife/Gyuto, but that can wait. First I'll learn to master that Tojiro Shirogami Nakiri and sharpening in general. Looking forward to it, as I like to cook and discovered I really like to sharpen as well.

For clarification, I haven't pulled the trigger on the actually purchase yet. That SG1000 isn't in stock, with expected restocking in about a month. That, along with having that Zwilling combi stone makes me feel much less pressured to order right now. I'm mainly relieved I've actually made a decision on this. (Now I'll have to stick to it.)

Also, getting a knife sharp enough to easily glide through paper is a lot easier than I feared it was. I was expecting it to take more skill and effort. Finding that bevel and grinding only that was easier than expected as well, though the sharpie trick really helps with visual confirmation.

Well, now I'm just rambling. Thanks for all the advice thus far anyway. I haven't replied to every comment, but I valued everything that's been said. Any other advice you think is helpful to impart is always welcome.


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## kayman67 (May 3, 2020)

You just experienced some of the things we were talking about, like surfaces keeping you in check or just how abrasives/grits are not about numbers alone. 
Welcome to the dark side! 

Now, I would challenge you to sharpen your next knife without gauging that stone at all. 
And practice edge leading passes as much as possible.


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## Helmore (May 3, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> And practice edge leading passes as much as possible.


Is there a specific reason for this? I just keep the knife on the stone, so edge trailing when pushing away from me and edge leading when pulling towards me. I tend to push a little harder on the knife during the edge trailing stroke, as that is easier when pushing the knife away from you. Keeps things more stable that way and less likely to make me wobble and mess up my angle. I also found it easier to keep a steadier angle on both sides if I switched hands between side, so sharpening the left side by holding the handle in the left hand and the right side by holding it in my right hand. That all of course combined with a slow finger walk along the length of the knife to sharpen the entire edge. The tip of the knives didn't come out quite how I liked them, but that'll just take some practice and experimenting.

Also, the gouging hasn't been an issue today. That happened a previous time, so there is already some improvement happening.


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## M1k3 (May 3, 2020)

Soft stones are definitely good at showing you bad technique/pressure, literally. Hard stones leave little hints on the knife.


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## kayman67 (May 3, 2020)

For the tip, if you desire an even bevel, follow the profile and lift the knife (raise your hand holding the handle as much as necessary to have proper contact). You pretty much need to learn this as it's helpful on any stone or strop. 

Also, take a look at this topic. Will answer some questions and open the perspective as much as possible. 






Stropping on medium grit stones


For me the best way to get rid of burrs ist to do light short strokes edge leading, like sharpening about 45° to the edge. Gives a fine mikroserration and lots of bite. In comparison stropped edge trailing along the edge you get an wire edge with almost no bite and min. 50% less time on the...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## M1k3 (May 3, 2020)




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## nutmeg (May 3, 2020)

Helmore said:


> I currently have hardly any sharpening experience. I recently tried sharpening a Zwilling chef's knife with what I believe is this combo stone: Zwilling Twin Pro combi stone 32505-100, grit 250 / 1000
> This was at my parents' place. They had the knife laying uncovered in a drawer and that stone laying around somewhere, unused. Now, I didn't really like using that stone as it was very very easy to dig into it with the knife and I'd like something slightly bigger



My very first stone was a combo 3k-8k from Zwilling.
I used to hate it for the same reason, too easy to dig into it.
And now, after 11 years, it's my favorite stone in this grit range! I don't even use the Kitayama 8k anymore.


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## KingShapton (May 4, 2020)

Helmore said:


> To that end I've decided to go for a Shapton Glass HR 1000 and Glass HR 4000, along with getting a stone holder and an Atoma for flattening.


A good choice, so you should have a very good start!

Enjoy the journey and have fun.


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## inferno (May 5, 2020)

helmore: maybe dictum.de have them in stock. they seem to have everything in stock always somehow.


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## Helmore (May 6, 2020)

inferno said:


> helmore: maybe dictum.de have them in stock. they seem to have everything in stock always somehow.


True, but they don't have Atoma's and I like the convenience of buying from a single store. I may end up buying from them in the future, as that double thick SG500 looks really interesting and convenient.


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## inferno (May 6, 2020)

Helmore said:


> True, but they don't have Atoma's and I like the convenience of buying from a single store. I may end up buying from them in the future, as that double thick SG500 looks really interesting and convenient.



yeah i also try to buy everything from a single store when i can! i know the feeling.
the 500 DT is very good and usable. i think you can also get dmt's instead of atomas.
the extra coarse from dictum will do just as well as any atoma imo









DMT Dia Sharp Bench Stone, Fine | DMT | Dictum


DMT Dia Sharp Bench Stone, Fine | DMT | Dictum




www.dictum.com





the atomas have diamonds in blobs to decrease the suction against the stone being flattened.
the dmts are continous surface so they have more diamonds to wear out but you get suction/vacuum when the stone being flattened turns flat.

i have atoma 400, dmt 325 (coarse) and dmt diaflat 120 grit DMT Dia-Flat Lapping Plate, 120 Micron | DMT | Dictum
the diaflat has a real industrial hardcoat not just nickel plated surface, so it holds on to the diamonds longer than the atomas and regular dmts. but its 3x as expensive, but its much bigger surface 250x100 instead of like 200x75. in the long run i think the diaflats are the most economical dia-plates for flattening, but just slightly.

all diamond plates will wear out. could be 1 year or 20. but they all wear out.


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## inferno (May 6, 2020)

you can also flatten stones with a coarse p60-p180 sandpaper. just put it on a flat surface and grind away. cost almost nothing.


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