# Carbon Steel Pans...My Exploration Is Over



## HumbleHomeCook

I have been messing with carbon steel pans, specifically Matfer Bourgeat, for a couple years now and have even recommended them here. I quite specifically chose Matfer for their thickness to help reduce warping on my coil stove, the rivet-less handle, and the price. 

First, without a doubt, they are quality pans. Cared for, these pans will be around for generations.

As for stability, I do not find them needy in terms of rust and so long as I mindful of not cranking the heat, I never had one warp. Again, they are quality pans.

But my primary issue is that the seasoning just doesn't last. I've tried it all. Oven, a bunch of different stove top methods, oils, waxes, etc. It DOESN'T matter. Trust me, I have been incredibly diligent about trying myriad methods and making these pans work. To the extent that it is a joke with my wife that I go into battle with the pans.

Now, don't get me wrong, if I put a little oil in them before I cook, they do great. But they aren't non-stick. Not without adding fat before you cook. You'll be all giddy thinking you got a good season going cuz it's nice and dark and shiny but something will stick just a touch and even if you're very gentle with cleaning, all of a sudden your pan will look dull and dry. And that's because it is.

I have chain mail, nylon brushes, etc. It DOESN'T matter.

I really liked these pans and when they worked, they worked great, but they are too much work for consistency. I will keep them for searing steaks and the like as they rock at those tasks, but I'll no longer advocate them as true non-stick alternatives.


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## Michi

Cast iron and carbon steel are never non-stick, only low-stick. They do need oil and, even then, stick more than a non-stick pan. That’s just how it is…


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## pleue

I use mauviel crepe pans, clean all the wax off them, a few cycles on a wok burner or in an oven with a wipe down of grapeseed or veg oil and then cook heavy fat foods in them for a while. They'll never be non-stick but I happily make omelets, crepes, etc. with a bit of fat in em.


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## Brian Weekley

I use a variety of carbon pans and have done so for years starting with cast iron pans. My experience parallels yours in that seasoning doesn’t seem to hold up forever. I periodically strip the seasoning and re-season pans. Non-stick cooking requires a bit of oil. Eggs get a bit of butter (Ghee actually) and protein gets bacon fat (yum!). The only thing that demands a stainless pan is sugar cured bacon. Done in a carbon pan, sugar cured bacon is a sure fire seasoning remover. Clean up is generally kosher salt and a paper towel. If I accumulate some stuck bits for some reason I’ll resort to hot water and a non metallic scrubber but that doesn’t happen often. I have one pan that I reserve for eggs and, with a bit of oil or spray, I get great results. Even with the need for oil I’m completely satisfied with the carbon pans and rarely find a reason to use anything else. I guess it is just a question of expectations. I don’t know how I could cook any better using anything else.


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## sumis

true as far as my own experience goes. as long as i don't mess up, i only need to recondition once a year.

mess up = cooking too acidic stuff and/or too starchy/sticky/sugary stuff.

recently i forgot myself and threw in some wine and tomatoes in a perfectly seasoned pan (basically non-stick) to braise after searing … put me back a year or two in seasoning. but it was a user error. had i decided on adding the acid stuff earlier i'd obviously used a stainless vessel instead. but now i thought: feck it, it'll work …

imho carbon is amazingly great, as well as easy to take care of, as long as you don't use it for certain foods.

.


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## sansho

for the moment, my experimentation with carbon steel and cast iron is over. i just don't dig it.

ptfe and stainless for me.

i only use ptfe very gingerly in low temp cooking. i try not to heat anything to the smoke point in it and clean it promptly after every use with a soft sponge. the surface doesn't get fouled, and it lasts a long time this way. i like anolon nouvelle copper luxe.

alternative nonstick coatings (like ceramics) are trash. i don't understand the mechansim, but they progressively lose their nonstick properties. ptfe lasts WAY longer ime if you're nice to it.

when fluorocarbon isn't required, i default to stainless. i just sear meat until it releases. sorta kinda (not really) nonstick, but i like how it works.

something i want to experiment with is using stainless like a carbon steel skillet. maybe rough up the surface some and then intentionally season it. i don't see why it wouldn't behave like carbon steel (though maybe a little less thermally conductive), but no more of this bs where you have to obsessively oil it and worry about rusting.


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## Pisau

*Only pour fat into a carbon or cast iron pan after it heats up, it'll just work regardless of the seasoning.* If possible always practice oil return before putting in the ingredients like on the wok. This method even works on a stainless pan without seasoning to make it fairly nonstick. I'm sure y'all know this, but too it's often missed or like me, too impatient.

.02


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## MarcelNL

with pans it's also horses for courses IMO, I love my carbon, indeed no non-stick Debyer pans for searing at high heat using a bit of duck fat, something I cannot accomplish in the non stick controlinduc Demeyere that excels at more delicate stuff (I've never before managed to sear foie gras without losing the browning to the pan before, surely a first world problem but it's just an example)


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## Jovidah

If seasoning doesn't stick it might be user error; either using acidic stuff in it, or simply leaving it dirty overnight. Especially the latter has set me back a few times even when I was dilligent on the first. A lot of the guides on how to season them also don't necessarily result in the best seasoning.

Regarding non-stickyness... I think in most cases it should be 'somewhere in between' normal sticky stuff like stainless and a 'proper' non-stick'... but it's all a tradeoff. Stainless will be more forgiving with certain ingredients and maintenance, but it will stick more. 'Proper' non-stick dies from high heat, and comes with a bunch of environmental and potential health caveats. In the end I like having all 3.

You can get them quite close to non-stick though once you have a really good layer. I had this on 2 pans that were essentially glassy at that point before I stripped it to reset them (in a misguided attempt to test how easy it was to reseason from scratch in 'easy' ways), and it was almost counterproductive how slidey they were when making stuff like pancakes.

A lot of 'guides' are a bit deceptive though in the sense that, yes... if you use fat and high heat a lot of stuff will barely stick or come off easily even with the bare minimum of seasoning. But using such 'proper' cooking methods stuff will barely stick and come off easily from bare stainless as well...


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## HumbleHomeCook

Michi said:


> Cast iron and carbon steel are never non-stick, only low-stick. They do need oil and, even then, stick more than a non-stick pan. That’s just how it is…



I know and I don't mind them being low-stick, but I get tired fighting the seasoning. Yes, as I said, with the addition of some type fat, they work great and are pretty non-stick. But that means I'm adding more fat than I would if I just used an actual non-stick pan. I'd hoped these would become my daily drivers and to a large extent they have been for the past year but I get very flustered when things are going along nicely and then one day the pan looks dry again.

I never use acidic ingredients in them and my pans are always cleaned immediately after use. I have taken tremendous care of these pans.


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## tomsch

I ended up gifting away all my Demeyere carbon steel pans as I also battled with seasoning. My vintage cast iron pans were always way more non-stick so I tend to use those along with stainless steel and non-stick. BTW I agree with the comment above that even with stainless steel heating before adding oil works well.


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## HumbleHomeCook

tomsch said:


> I ended up gifting away all my Demeyere carbon steel pans as I also battled with seasoning. My vintage cast iron pans were always way more non-stick so I tend to use those along with stainless steel and non-stick. BTW I agree with the comment above that even with stainless steel heating before adding oil works well.



I agree as well. I always pre-heat my pans, regardless of type, then add the oil, then allow to come back up to temp before cooking.


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## coxhaus

What I have seem with my Matfer Bourgeat pan is it does not seem to season as well as my older debuyer pan. It could be the way I use it but I have an older debuyer 11 5/8-inch pan that seems to hold its seasoning better than the newer one I bought on your recommendation. I still like the Matfer Bourgeat 10-inch and use it. I wonder if there is a difference in the steel?


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## CA_cook

You should never cook in your pan without oil. Oil serves a very important function- it regulates the temperature, limiting it to the oil smoke point. If you cook without oil your food can easily overheat, burn, and develop carcinogens. This is why marketing of PTFE pans as "healthier alternative" is perverse. They are not. My DeBuyer carbon pan is essentially non stick, so is my Field cast iron pan. I do use all clad stainless for pasta sauces and everything highly acidic. Works very well. I'm a lot less impressed with MadeIn carbon cookware.


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## Jovidah

Fat serves more functions than just keeping things from sticking. It also serves as a conductor to essentially fill in the voids, generating more contact between the food and the heat. And it also massively improves flavor. IMO trying to cook without it is a heresy no matter what pan you use, and even from a diet perspective I don't think there's a whole lot to gain here. Heck, some nutrients dissolve in fat and are actually digested better when there's fat in the meal.


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## thebradleycrew

Brian Weekley said:


> I use a variety of carbon pans and have done so for years starting with cast iron pans. My experience parallels yours in that seasoning doesn’t seem to hold up forever. I periodically strip the seasoning and re-season pans. Non-stick cooking requires a bit of oil. Eggs get a bit of butter (Ghee actually) and protein gets bacon fat (yum!). The only thing that demands a stainless pan is sugar cured bacon. Done in a carbon pan, sugar cured bacon is a sure fire seasoning remover. Clean up is generally kosher salt and a paper towel. If I accumulate some stuck bits for some reason I’ll resort to hot water and a non metallic scrubber but that doesn’t happen often. I have one pan that I reserve for eggs and, with a bit of oil or spray, I get great results. Even with the need for oil I’m completely satisfied with the carbon pans and rarely find a reason to use anything else. I guess it is just a question of expectations. I don’t know how I could cook any better using anything else.


Great points from everyone on this. Does anyone know the science behind why sugar causes issues. Bacon also ruined my seasoning and I couldn't figure out why behind given the fat.


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## Brian Weekley

It’s the sugar man … it’s the sugar in the bacon cure. It seems that the sugar bonds to the seasoning and the rest (your laborious and careful seasoning) is history. Doing bacon is about the only use that I have for my remaining stainless pans. Strangely the fat from the rendered bacon which I save religiously, seems to leave the seasoning unaffected.


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## btbyrd

I only had one Matfer pan and I gave it away because it wouldn't hold seasoning at all. I had it for a couple years and did all the tricks, but it was always crappy for some reason. I have 8 other carbon steel or cast iron pans, and none have had a similar problem.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Maybe it is just a brand thing.


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## esoo

I gave up on my larger Matfers after medium heat on my electric stove warped two of them.


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## Jovidah

esoo said:


> I should have given up on my electric stove after it warped two of my pans.


Fixed that for you...


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## Lars

I abandoned all my bare steel cookware years ago. Still like enameled cast iron. I'm perfectly happy searing stuff in my stainless pans.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Lars said:


> I abandoned all my bare steel cookware years ago. Still like enameled cast iron. I'm perfectly happy searing stuff in my stainless pans.



I have nice stainless cookware that sees a lot of use. It'll be seeing even more now.


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## JASinIL2006

I have several carbon steel pans (mostly deBuyer and no-name carbon steel wok) and none of them hold the seasoning all that well. I also have tried just about every fat I can think of to season them, but it never proves to be all that durable. I still use them all the time, but they are not something I reach for when cooking delicate proteins.

My cast iron pans, though, are another story. I have a smooth-bottomed Griswold from before I was born and a pebbly-bottomed Lodge cast iron pan, and the seasoning on both of those is darn near indestructible. They definitely hold the seasoning better than the carbon steel, by a long shot.


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## MarcelNL

Tonight I've used my largest Debuyer to bake some potatoes in duck fat, to great pleasure of the whole family.
The few times I ran into issues with stickiness it was my own fault, adding too much acidity to the pan or cleaning it to roughly.


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## esoo

Jovidah said:


> Fixed that for you...



Pan (and warrantied pan) were cheaper than a new stove....


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## BazookaJoe

Did you do the high heat treatment of the pan before seasoning. You'll need a powerful burner for thick carbon pans, I have a 200000 BTU propane burner outside and it still took about 15 min for my biggest pan. Same treatment that's done to new carbon steel woks, something about changing the steel and developing an oxide layer that allows the subsequent oil seasoning to stick. My process is as follows:
First you heat it on the propane, very high heat. The steel changes to blue color, then back to a dull silver. When cool, heat in the oven at 200F, then very lightly oiled (canola), wiped virtually dry. Back into the oven at 500F for 2 hours. Shut off the oven and let the pan cool in there for another 2 hours.
I don't cook anything tomato based in the carbon pans, I use stainless for those dishes. The photo shows my pans that get a lot of use and the seasoning is still great. Yes some oil or butter is needed but very non-stick with everything.


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## Rangen

Most of my cooking is in a carbon steel wok, and I season it with the trick taught to me by the guy at The Wok Shop in SF: stir fry some chives (ideal) or scallion greens (works fine) in hot oil until seriously browned, moving them all over the surface as you go. Some sort of reaction produces a nice coating on the carbon steel. Works for cast iron too. When the coating fades, back to more chives or scallions.


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## Michi

I've not yet re-seasoned my wok or my cast iron pan. When I'm done cleaning, I just wipe the most minute film of oil onto the pan (as if seasoning for the first time) and then put it back on the heat until I see the first wisps of smoke. Then let it cool down.

I don't do this every time, only when I notice that the surface starts to look a bit dull. Things have been nicely non-stick for me this way (as much as I can expect without a Teflon-type coating).


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## Steampunk

When reading the the original post from @HumbleHomeCook , it hit a little too close to home... I feel your pain. Been there a lot.

I love the way my carbon cookware handles in terms of temp response, and the flavor it seems to bring out in food versus non-reactive cookware. However, I've been doing battle with seasoning and things sticking for years, now. Just like you... I really try to use logic to solve problems, but sometimes, my carbon pans make me believe in pan-gremlins. There are days that carbon is 'happy', and days that it is not. Some carbon pans are more consistently happy than others, but all have their bad moments when they just seem to puke-up their seasoning, and go home (Even when you've never done a single thing wrong to them.)... I've spent a long time trying to figure this out. I still don't have answers, but I do have conjecture, that is gradually starting to make more sense in my head, the more years I do the same battle that you've been doing.

Here's what's starting to make sense:

#1 - If you're afraid of fats, or animal proteins, or can't afford them, stay away from reactive pans. Bare carbon/cast iron thrive on these things.

#2 - If you're not cooking in your carbon/cast iron at least 3-4 days out of 7, it seems to hate you. They love to be used.

#3 - Use butter, or a butter/oil mixture when cooking eggs, or anything else you want to be nonstick at lower temps (200-300f)... It just works, if you're not into high-temp, practically deep-fried eggs... Straight oil works about once at low-temp _if _your seasoning is perfect, and then the pan is likely to throw a wobbly straight after...

#4 - Don't do the 100-coats of oil (Don't even _think_ about Flaxseed! Use whatever high-temp veggie you normally cook with, or lard.) before you cook anything, or oven methods of seasoning. That's a great way to create a weak seasoning that'll peel off. Do it like the Chinese treat their woks... Heat treat the bare pan until it starts to change colour, to create a perfectly clean, oxide film on the surface that will help to hold the carbonized oil/fat. Then, put one layer of high-temp veggie oil or lard on the pan, start to bake it off way past the smoke point until you see the fat turn into droplets on the surface, rebuff the pan with a towel to level out the coating, and then finish off on the heat until all the smoke disappears. Only do this 1-2 times, before you start cooking things in the pan, and letting the rest of the seasoning build up naturally. After that, there are certain things that carbon/cast iron pans love, that seem to help them settle in quicker.

#5 - Carbon/CI loves starchy potatoes, sausage patties, and low-sugar onions (Like the Spring Onions mentioned above.). If you're not ready to cook things yet, cook some russet potato skins with a lot of oil and salt, or some scallions, until they are inedibly dark, and with enough salt and oil to embalm a corpse, and bin them after... Otherwise, make Latkes/Hash Browns, Pork Sausage Patties, and saute some not-too-sweet onions and peppers. Do this a ton. Your pan will love you, and quickly develop a very even, as-durable-as-it-can-get seasoning.

#6 - Carbon/CI needs surface texture. Not the pebbly, truck bed liner texture of Lodge, but enough of a surface profile for the oil to cling to. Pans with ground finishes hold seasoning worse than pans with pickled (Acid etched), or abrasive blasted finishes. I think it was Stargazer that actually commented on having to change their process, and implementing a bead-blasting step _after_ grinding/polishing, so the seasoning adhered properly. Same applies to carbon. Seasoning is just like paint... Paint needs texture to stick. Grinding/polishing creates a really crappy base for coatings to adhere to. I think that companies that blast or pickle their pans, tend to have less issues than ones that sell them in a freshly-ground state. I stopped sanding/grinding rust out of pans I restore, and started using chemical treatments to preserve or introduce an etched profile. Really need to get a blasting booth up and running. This would be even better... For what it's worth, DeBuyer's seem to be pickled, which makes them respond to seasoning a little better than a lot of other carbon I've tried. They also use something like C100 carbon steel (1% carbon; basically cutlery grade.), and that added carbon seems to make them respond a little differently than mild steel on cheaper pans... Some of the new cast iron startups are blasted, which is going to be even better, providing they get the Ra profile in the right depth range, and use the right media shape.

#7 - I've babied carbon/cast-iron cookware, and had it spank me. It's crushed me when I've met people with some beat-up carbon/cast-iron pan, that they've been using for decades with none of the rules I or others have created on how to treat this stuff, and it's got a better seasoning than I've ever been able to make... I'm talking, they've got carbon Lyonnaise skillets or American-style cast iron pans that have been used for decades, that they can cook shakshouka or even caramel sauce in every week, and it still looks great, and can immediately fry an egg without sticking after... I wouldn't believe it, if I hadn't actually seen it in person... This sort of stuff makes me feel that all the care I've lavished on my carbon/cast-iron cookware hasn't let it shine, and that you kind of need to let go of your standards a bit, and just cook in it like you don't understand it, or care about it. These people flog it, and don't worry about a darned thing (Rust? Just bake another level of fat on, and keep going... In some ways, rust is actually a great bonding agent for coatings.), and their pans are better behaved than mine. Kind of reminds me of carbon knives. At some level, our worry doesn't help them, and they just like being used.

#8 - Temperature is critical. I think part of the problem (Although those mystery carbon/cast-iron pan abusers with perfect seasoning make me doubt myself.), is that I'm not always using enough temperature, or am maybe using temperature in the wrong way. My pans seem to especially love when I flog them up past 500f, on a routine basis. Eggs stick less when I cook them at least 50f higher than I would in nonstick. When I dry the oil out of my pans on the stove to keep building up their seasoning, they don't just like something hovering around the smoke point, and turning off flame immediately once the oil starts drying, they like something WAY beyond those points. The surface gets smoother, and blacker, when I use them hard. Especially when I'm cooking things in them at those high temps, rather than just drying oil onto them empty. Something about mild food acids helps the oil layer to bond, and temp/timing also plays a big role in not getting things to stick. Really high temps seem to create that smooth, black, glassy layer. You definitely need an awesome vent fan, or to work outside for this, along with at least 15K BTU's.

#9 - Honestly, I don't know how people without high-output gas can get a proper seasoning on carbon/cast iron based upon my own personal experiences (Those 'zero f's given' people, with the perfect seasoning on their pans, often prove me wrong. Many do so with like 5-7K BTU's, or coil stoves. I can't explain it. Maybe it's more repetition in cooking than me, or the certain fats they use, or the temp curves, that make this work. Or, the fact that they do let their pans go too far, and the corrosion helps hold the seasoning better?). The oven method is a waste of time; seasoning is built up by cooking, and methods that aren't continually enhanced through use seem to be weakest. Based upon what I've seen with how Carbon/Cast Iron performs on induction, I'd probably just accept stainless and teflon pans, and say goodbye to my days screwing around with reactive pans. They just don't seem to be able to create a seasoning as well, due to the nature of the heat. Coil/glass top electrics also appear to be worse than gas at this job.

#10 - IR temp readings only work with fully seasoned pans. Spots with shiny-brown spots, don't read as accurately as spots that are fully matte black. It makes your pan look like it has hotspots, even when it doesn't.

I've played around with a lot of carbon and cast iron ware... DeBuyer, out of the box, is the best experience I've ever had with carbon cookware. A carbon-steel 'USA' wok from the Wok Shop, which came rusty enough I had to take an angle grinder with a flap wheel to it, despite the nasty industrial-oil finish, was and is my very worst. It flakes off huge amounts of seasoning into every other meal, no matter what I do. The DeBuyer's have been really well behaved, until recently, when they seemed to lose whatever 'magic' they had initially, and are now rusting like crazy on me, and struggling to develop the quick/consistent seasoning they did before. I'm currently attributing this to neglect, and lack of abuse. I haven't been cooking in them as much, and haven't been taking them much past medium lately since their seasoning started getting really good. I think they need more... More cooking, more temp, more often. That cheap wok, I'm determined, is unfixable, unless I could maybe low-pressure crushed-glass blast it, and even then the material might just be rubbish.

I'm not giving up... Still trying to solve this mystery. It's too intriguing.


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## Steampunk

One more thing I forgot... Some people say to never use metal utensils on carbon/CI... I find the opposite. Metal utensils are necessary to scrape the thicker layers of gunk off the pan as you work, so you can keep the layer of seasoning thin. The thicker parts of the seasoning are always the parts that fail first. Nipping those caked-on-bits in the bud before they get hardened on, using metal utensils, seems to help. Proper seasoning is nearly impossible to damage with metal utensils, even if you're trying. This, I've noticed. Keep the seasoning thin.


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## MarcelNL

heating the pan with salt in it also works to preserve most of the seasoning while removing sticky bits incidentally.


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## Jovidah

I'm actually wondering if the type of oil maybe does matter... lately I've seen several references that it doesn't matter, but I have to say that my new burn-in after I reset some of my pans (originally burnt in with linseed oil) was actually noticably less effective than the original burn-in, even though the method was otherwise mostly the same.

Agreed on proper seasoning being quite metal resistant; IMO it's one of the perks of carbon.

You bring up an interesting point with the fats. Admittedly I'm someone who likes his butter. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of certain fats (for example saturated vs unsaturated) working 'better' in the pan. Maybe someone with more scientific insight has a view on the matter has something sensible to say about this.

It's funny you mention the 'indestructable' coating some people achieve. I actually had that on a few pans that I was foolish enough to reset just to test some misguided youtube guides on easier ways to reseason pans. They had a glassy finish that was almost impossible to get off even when I tried. Even after dumping undiluted lemon juice in it overnight it was still a struggle to get them cleaned up, and some parts of seasoning never came off at all.


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## MarcelNL

Science of Cast Iron Cooking


Cooking with Cast Iron Skillets



www.scienceofcooking.com


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## tomsch

One additional comment is that even though I passed on my carbon steel pans for some reason my Made-in wok seems to work great. It sees a lot of use but I believe that the reason that it works so well is since I'm doing stir fry that I heat it up to a high temp, add oil, and then fry. The temperature with added oil after it's heated seems to do the trick. My wife hates it since it's not the lightest pan we have for sure but it does work well.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Steampunk said:


> When reading the the original post from @HumbleHomeCook , it hit a little too close to home... I feel your pain. Been there a lot.
> 
> ...



Amen to the flaxseed oil. I learned that real quick, and the hard way. I also heartily agree about not over-seasoning, especially early on.

I'm not throwing my carbon pans out, they just won't be getting the use they have been. I don't mind using some oil, trust me, my belt line can attest, but there's no getting around that I have to use a fair amount more with these pans than any of my others. That's especially true when one decides to just go dry. The pan-gremlins as you so rightfully termed it. I use my 9 and 10 pans so often they more or less live on the stove top. I use them for everything from toast to fried chicken. They never see acid, get cleaned promptly and as mildly as I can get away with at the time, and sometimes there is just no rhyme or reason why they react as they do.


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## esoo

I have a vintage cast iron (Findlay No 90) and zero f's are given with the seasoning. If I'm using it, I do not worry about the ingredients that are in it (tomatoes or other acidic, don't care). I cook with fat (olive oil, butter or bacon fat) and that's it. If it gets something stuck to it, I scrub with a blue or green Scotch-brite. 

For cast-iron, I think about it this way - 100 years ago they didn't obsess over seasoning, they cooked with fat and that was it. It seasoned itself.


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## HumbleHomeCook

esoo said:


> I have a vintage cast iron (Findlay No 90) and zero f's are given with the seasoning. If I'm using it, I do not worry about the ingredients that are in it (tomatoes or other acidic, don't care). I cook with fat (olive oil, butter or bacon fat) and that's it. If it gets something stuck to it, I scrub with a blue or green Scotch-brite.
> 
> For cast-iron, I think about it this way - 100 years ago they didn't obsess over seasoning, they cooked with fat and that was it. It seasoned itself.



Yeah, my cast iron, regardless of age, is pretty bullet proof.


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## Jeff

Great info in this theead!

Along the lines of hot pan / cold oil, I get better release of proteins when I oil the food as opposed to the pan.

Q: When do you choose CS and when do you go with raw CI?


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## HumbleHomeCook

Jeff said:


> Great info in this theead!
> 
> Along the lines of hot pan / cold oil, I get better release of proteins when I oil the food as opposed to the pan.
> 
> Q: When do you choose CS and when do you go with raw CI?



With the exception of my Dutch oven, I've largely been using the carbon in place of the cast.


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## KitchenCommander

I've also had trouble with my seasoning on Matfer carbon steel. I didn't do the potato peel seasoning on the 9.5", and while my initial seasoning was beautiful and even, on the cooking surface it has ALL since flaked off after only a few uses. I got an 11" shortly after and did the potato peel season method, and while the seasoning is somewhat more stable, it is far from where it needs to be. I'll try a potato peel seasoning on the 9.5" to see if that helps it at all, or maybe I just need to scratch it up with some 80/130 grit sand paper to give the seasoning something to grab on to. If I continue to have issues, that is what I'll try.

I have many vintage cast iron and hardly ever have trouble building a seasoning on them. They take and hold it well, even with the oven bake method, which I do 3-4 times on a stripped piece. Works for me and I have several that I love with beautifully smooth and slick surfaces. 

The shallow walls on the carbon steel really make a mess when working with high heat. Cast iron typically has much steeper walls that somewhat contain the grease, at least the radius of splatter is reduced with the high walls. I'm still finding where carbon steel fits into my cooking routine, since my first love is cast iron.


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## matchplay18

As always truly interesting content. I was on the fence about buying a carbon pan. I have the nonstick, stainless, and some some vintage cast iron. I might have to evaluate my thinking. How can you beat real world opinions.


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## btbyrd

I mean, I like my carbon steel pans. I just had one in particular that wasn't so good at holding onto seasoning for some reason. The pans are very similar in performance to cast iron. The main difference, which is considerable, is the shape. For general cooking, I prefer the sloped walls on carbon steel pans because you can do a proper saute.


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## McMan

First, always fat. Especially in a non-stick pan. 

Buried somewhere on the forum is a post about seasoning... From what I can remember, there was discussion of the difference between polymerization and carbonization, where polymerization is the thin actual seasoning and carbonization is what ends up on top of it. 
I'm not positive I have the terms right, but it was two contrasting "-izations". IIRC it came up in a discussion of cleaning cast iron, with the poster who brought it up arguing that dish detergent will remove the carbonization but not the polymerization, and so was no threat to seasoning, provided it was used lightly.
So, I wonder if what's flaking isn't the seasoning but rather carbonization on top of it that may (or may not) be pulling the seasoning off? When flaking does it flake to bare metal?

I have a few duBuyer, use them a lot, and have never had this issue. I wonder if it's Mafter-related as opposed to carbon steel related (something about the anti-rust coating perhaps?)? 
For the duBuyer, I boiled potato skins, scrubbed with salt, and then just did a stove-top seasoning. The pan got better from constant use. But the pans get this halo thing happening, where the sides get a lot of seasoning/carbonization/crud build up and the bottom less so (from the constant heat). I think this is the nature of the beast with carbon steel pans, and from my observations, the seasoning they have is quite different from cast iron. Carbon steel and cast iron are different beasts--with different strengths and weaknesses...


----------



## BazookaJoe

Please, everyone that has had seasoning problems report if you did a high heat treatment before seasoning. I'm pretty sure that is the problem with the seasoning not lasting. Cast iron does not need any pre treatment, so you cannot think carbon and cast iron are the same when it comes to seasoning. I have cast iron too, but don't use it for cooking anymore... the carbon pans are just better. I use a shallow cast iron pan for baking bread instead of a baking stone and it works really well.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

BazookaJoe said:


> Please, everyone that has had seasoning problems report if you did a high heat treatment before seasoning. I'm pretty sure that is the problem with the seasoning not lasting. Cast iron does not need any pre treatment, so you cannot think carbon and cast iron are the same when it comes to seasoning. I have cast iron too, but don't use it for cooking anymore... the carbon pans are just better. I use a shallow cast iron pan for baking bread instead of a baking stone and it works really well.



Yes I tried that. Believe me when I say that over the years I tried several things. My experience is not due to a lack of seasoning procedure, cooking technique or cleaning practices. 

As said, maybe it is just unique to Matfer. I don't know and I in no way doubt the positive experiences of others.


----------



## ian

Steampunk said:


> _I said something that was amazingly comprehensive as usual, and Ian cannot quote my message while also writing the stuff below without exceeding the 10000 character post limit._



I can't tell if you're way overthinking this or not, whether your standards are a ton higher than mine, or if your pans are actually possessed. I have a few Lodge pans that I sanded down with an orbital sander, and that have basically bulletproof seasoning. I really like the smoother surface vs the bumpy Lodge o.g. finish. It's easier to keep clean imo, since you can just scrape it down with a straight edge spatula, which just glides along the smooth surface. Never noticed a difference in how well it took seasoning pre and post sanding.

I totally agree that one should just chill out and cook with it, instead of doing 100 layers of oven seasoning. The latter's a recipe for disappointment.



esoo said:


> I gave up on my larger Matfers after medium heat on my electric stove warped two of them.



This happened to a deBuyer that I had too, also on an electric stove. Don't think it was on medium heat though. Went back to the cast iron after it did it a second time. Don't want to spend my life flattening pans.


----------



## Oshidashi

I have a Mauviel carbon steel pan and a carbon steel wok that I use a lot. And I know I'm in the minority here, but right after cooking I clean them with dilute dish soap and hot water and a sponge because I want them to be actually clean. I then dry them out on the hot stovetop, lightly oil them, heat till just smoking, turn off the heat, and they're fine. Nice and dark and slick, and clean, and low stick. Easy stuff. I pretty much do the same thing with my cast irons and they're good, too.


----------



## sumis

i only own de Buyer carbon pans, so i can't say anything about other brands and quality differences. 
but seriously, the (de Buyer) carbon pans are really easy to use, gives great result, are pretty cheap, don't warp easily, and are uncomplicated to season. 
just don't make caramel or cook tomato sauce in them …

don't overthink seasoning – actually using the pan is as great of a method as anything, if slower  as noted above, the pan behaves at its best when it is shown appreciation by cooking in it.

if the pan develops 'sticky' areas: just clean it with some steel wool, and season it on the stove with a micro thin coat of oil. just let it smoke a little bit and darken. do it twice. done, in eight minutes! then cook something else than fried eggs in it for the following two sessions.
not rocket science imho.

.


----------



## spaceconvoy

I had a de Buyer for a year and a half, and my experience was similar to HumbleHomeCook and Steampunk. I used to wonder if it was due to the humidity here in Florida, but reading though this thread I think the commonality is not using it every day. When I got busy with work I might only use it on weekends. I gave up on it last summer after a few bouts of rust.

I don't miss it at all, especially the weight and hassle of having to manage it. And I'm not sure why I ever thought I needed it when it's so easy to cook scrambled eggs in a stainless pan to begin with.


----------



## Dinsdale

What issues does flaxseed cause?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Dinsdale said:


> What issues does flaxseed cause?



Well, it's expensive and goes bad rather quickly but the biggest issue for me was that it just plain didn't work well.


----------



## esoo

Dinsdale said:


> What issues does flaxseed cause?



I've never used it, but from what I read people complained about it making a fragile seasoning that flakes off easily.


----------



## ian

That was my experience. No idea why it’s so often recommended.


----------



## esoo

ian said:


> That was my experience. No idea why it’s so often recommended.



I can't find the article, but there was one a number of years ago, referred to by tons of people, that was very science-y about the polymerization point of the flax seed and how it would create a wonderful "plastic" like coating. It talked about 7 coatings in the oven, IIRC. I remember reading it, thinking it was a lot of work. Then when you read all the reviews, it just flaked. I suspect the problem is that you never actually bond the oil to the pan the way you do with the other methods which "burn" the oil to the pan.


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## Bensbites

i have several matfer pans and love them for non acidic cooks. I initially had trouble seasoning them with the potato/oil/salt method and flax seasoning method. I gave up and just started using them. What I stumbled onto by accident was that making pancakes was the best method I have seen.

1)Preheat the pan on medium heat. 
2) spray with a thin coat of canola oil. Once the oil is up to temp make a batch of pancakes.

this gave me the most durable seasoning of anything. I have tried. I don’t understand why it’s better than other methods, but it works.


----------



## ModRQC

spaceconvoy said:


> I had a de Buyer for a year and a half, and my experience was similar to HumbleHomeCook and Steampunk. I used to wonder if it was due to the humidity here in Florida, but reading though this thread I think the commonality is not using it every day. When I got busy with work I might only use it on weekends. I gave up on it last summer after a few bouts of rust.
> 
> I don't miss it at all, especially the weight and hassle of having to manage it. And I'm not sure why I ever thought I needed it when it's so easy to cook scrambled eggs in a stainless pan to begin with.



I think the commonality is obsessing rather than using. 

This thread was a funny read. I'd give up cooking entirely if the tools for doing it were so damn difficult as a simple pan in this thread.


----------



## Jovidah

Actually my first round of seasoning - the one that turned out to be really good and glassy - was linseed oil / flaxseed oil done using the oven method.
Once it was that glassy it was also very easy to maintain and non-fuss... was almost impossible to get off even when I wanted to.

When it comes to 'sticky' spots... I've found that this has a lot to do with what kind of oil you use. I mostly had this happen with **** tier 'vegetable oil' and sunflower oils, while others like rice bran, extra virgin olive oil, butter, or animal fats never seem to present this problem at all.


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## btbyrd

I used the pan plenty. Something was definitely up with it. But the point is well taken -- most discussions of cast iron and carbon steel revolve around people seasoning their pans over and over and over and seldom, if ever, cooking in them. And the discussions invariably devolve into a bunch of myths and pseudoscience. The best advice is to just use the damned pans and stop worrying about it. But sometimes even that's not enough.

I have five carbon steel pans with beautiful, even, stable seasoning. I have a carbon steel wok that I burned in and seasoned well on my high output wok burner. I have a pizza steel that rusted all over after its first use, but I refinished to a glossy, beautiful, black slab. I have stripped my grandmother's cast iron of decades of carbonized buildup and got it back to looking like new. And I have my very first pan -- a Lodge 12 inch skillet -- that I've had for two decades now and the seasoning is better than ever. I've never experienced what I experienced with the Matfer. Some pans are just cursed.


----------



## Jovidah

btbyrd said:


> I used the pan plenty. Something was definitely up with it. But the point is well taken -- most discussions of cast iron and carbon steel revolve around people seasoning their pans over and over and over and seldom, if ever, cooking in them. And the discussions invariably devolve into a bunch of myths and pseudoscience. The best advice is to just use the damned pans and stop worrying about it. But sometimes even that's not enough.


At least my first round of seasoning was stable even if I ignored the pans for a while. But I agree with your other point; most people (me included) take a rather haphazard trial and error approach to this problem, with very little actaul rigid method applied. Too many variables tinkered with and too many uncontrolled to really draw any sensible conclusions from all the anecdotal experiences (mine included).


----------



## spaceconvoy

ModRQC said:


> I think the commonality is obsessing rather than using.
> 
> This thread was a funny read. I'd give up cooking entirely if the tools for doing it were so damn difficult as a simple pan in this thread.


Who said I obsessed over my pan? I agree with you in spirit though - if cooking were so difficult that it required a special old-timey pan to prevent things from sticking, I might give it up too. There's nothing simpler than stainless.

For anyone with the capacity for intellectual curiosity who's still interested in analyzing this, another theory I have is storage. I kept mine above the stove hung on a screw, laying as flat against the wall as possible given the handle. I also boiled water to make tea every morning, and I can imagine how those two things might create extra humid conditions inside of the pan.


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## coxhaus

I just made pork chops in my debuyer pan. I have had this pan 4 or 5 years and I never have to re-season this pan any more. I store my pan in a wood cabinet if that makes a difference I have no idea.


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## Noodle

Jacques Pepin on pans. At the 2 min. mark you get his hit on carbon steel. Pretty much confirms many people’s experience. Despite this, as a side note, I just received a Darto steel pan and will be soon seeing what all the carbon fuss is about—my first pan of this type, for better or worse. Just always wanted to try it. Looking forward to issuing my own complaints soon…









Choosing Pans - Jacques Pépin Foundation


In this video, Chef Pépin demonstrates how to choose pans.




jp.foundation


----------



## coxhaus

Noodle said:


> Jacques Pepin on pans. At the 2 min. mark you get his hit on carbon steel. Pretty much confirms many people’s experience. Despite this, as a side note, I just received a Darto steel pan and will be soon seeing what all the carbon fuss is about—my first pan of this type, for better or worse. Just always wanted to try it. Looking forward to issuing my own complaints soon…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choosing Pans - Jacques Pépin Foundation
> 
> 
> In this video, Chef Pépin demonstrates how to choose pans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jp.foundation



I have some of my mom's old carbon steel pans from the 1970s that don't have sticking issues. One of them is a crepe pan which I only use occasionally with no sticking or re-seasoning issues. It just works. It was used heavily when my mom owned it. So, my idea is the carbon steel pan needs to be used a lot to get good but it does not need to be used all the time.

By the way I am having fun using my new All-Clad copper core pans so I have slowed down on my carbon steel use. I never owned a stainless fry pan until just recently. I always use carbon steel and cast iron. I noticed over the years I never really cooked with tomatoes other than a pot which has limited me. I am having fun cooking Italian food in my stainless steel. Will I give up my other pans, no way.


----------



## ModRQC

spaceconvoy said:


> Who said I obsessed over my pan? I agree with you in spirit though - if cooking were so difficult that it required a special old-timey pan to prevent things from sticking, I might give it up too. There's nothing simpler than stainless.
> 
> For anyone with the capacity for intellectual curiosity who's still interested in analyzing this, another theory I have is storage. I kept mine above the stove hung on a screw, laying as flat against the wall as possible given the handle. I also boiled water to make tea every morning, and I can imagine how those two things might create extra humid conditions inside of the pan.



Didn’t say no such thing. Just the formulation of this thread. What you do or don’t do isn’t of my concern. I thought your resume comment was the most interesting. Mine is the next step.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

ModRQC said:


> Didn’t say no such thing. Just the formulation of this thread. What you do or don’t do isn’t of my concern. I thought your resume comment was the most interesting. Mine is the next step.



I can only speak for myself, but it wasn't all terrible and even in the frustrations I was having fun. I got a lot of good performance out of the pans, I just never got them to that really black and glassy state long term. If it wasn't fun, I would've abandoned them long ago. It was a challenge and something new to explore and a problem to attempt to solve. And, again, for sure I had a lot of very good cooking experiences with them.

This thread was borne in frustration but nothing significant. It was just me saying, I'm not going to keep trying to get these pans to perform in the way that I'd hoped they would. It was also to let others know that if they're having some issues they aren't alone. When you're trying to make these pans work everything you read and watch tells you,"...you just need to..." or "...the secret is..." or "My pans work great! I don't understand what people are doing wrong..."


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## BazookaJoe

Just sayin...


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## HumbleHomeCook

BazookaJoe said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tcVxIdmmY
> 
> Just sayin...



Doesn't open for me.


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## BazookaJoe

Sorry, hopefully fixed.


----------



## aaoueee

FWIW, I've used the method starting at minute 3:56 of this video to season several new de Buyer pans and have been happy with the results:


----------



## M1k3

1. Get pan hot to see color change in the metal
2. Thin oil coat
3. Polymerize
4. Repeat 2 and 3 if necessary

EDIT: Don't overthink it. And wash the pan first. Just use it. Heat, +oil, add ingredients.


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## kvstas

How do you polymerize ?


----------



## Brian Weekley

M1k3 said:


> EDIT: Don't overthink it. And wash the pan first. Just use it. Heat, +oil, add ingredients.



+1 to this.

The only thing I DONT use my carbon pans for is sugar cured bacon. The best seasoning process I found was potato skins and salt in hot oil. Even that was just too much work for me. Washem and usem! The seasoning will come with use and time.

Don’t like them? Fine … but you’re not cool. Enjoy your Shun’s too. (Haha)


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

kvstas said:


> How do you polymerize ?



Polymerization occurs when the chosen oil reaches a temperature right around it's smoke point. That's one reason why your oil choice is important. Too low and you'll just end up burning it off during the seasoning process or when cooking and too high and you might not be able to get it hot enough to actually polymerize. And by knowing the smoke point of your oil, you'll know what temp you're shooting for.


----------



## bbrooks008

Dinsdale said:


> What issues does flaxseed cause?


It also stinks up the whole house


----------



## Jeff

Dinsdale said:


> What issues does flaxseed cause?




I went through “the flaxseed phase” with some of my cast iron. (I collect vintage cast iron and have 200+ pieces)

Supposedly, flaxseed oil has the lowest smoke point so it carbonizes at lower temps. Supposedly, that provides “better” seasoning.

My experience is that seasoning w/ flaxseed, while “pretty” is not durable. It flakes off during use. I giess because it carbonizes & bonds at such a relatively low temperature.

All the other comments about it going rancid are accurate.

There are many commercial “seasoning compounds” which by most accounts work well.

Personally … LARD, SOLID CRISCO, or BACON FAT are my go to choices.

IMHO …. You cant beat bacon fat!!!! 

HINT: If you are fortunate enough to have a pellet smoker it is a great way to season carbon steel or cast iron.


----------



## Jeff

HumbleHomeCook said:


> With the exception of my Dutch oven, I've largely been using the carbon in place of the cast.



I am starting to ho that way as well. Higher heat shorter cook = Choose CS.

CS much better at high temp because it has a much more rapid/efficient thru put of thermal energy whereas CI has a higher ability to store and release thermal energy. That was probably much more important then stoves/ovens were not as many BTUs or able to hold temp as well as they do today.


----------



## Lars

In the back of a cupboard I found a de Buyer blinis pan. Stripped it and followed the procedure described in the video @BazookaJoe posted..


BazookaJoe said:


>



Heated the pan, added some butter and fried an egg. No hassle and seasoning the pan was dead easy


----------



## Ruso

I have 3 de buyer carbon pans and I do not pretend that they are as non-stick as non-stick pans. I use 2 of them when high heat is required and the other one is dedicated crepe pan.
For most mid to mid-low temp cooking nonstick pan it is. 

I seasoned them in oven a while ago and no re-seasoning is needed so far.


----------



## tcmx3

the one carbon steel pan I continue to use is my crepe pan, and that one I not treated well and of every Matfer Ive ever owned it by far has had the least trouble lol.


----------



## KitchenCommander

I don't have any stainless pots or pans at all. It was not something I have ever tried. I will need to look for an All-Clad D3 to try out in a sauce pan for tomato sauces or other high liquid applications. I typically use a teflon pan for that these days. I've seen some All-Clad cookware at TJ-Maxx at nice discounts. I've bought a few Caphalon Teflon pans as they seem to be one of the best Teflon brands I have tried.

Just brought back 4 more pieces of cast iron from a giant flea market in NE Texas to add to my collection. Plan to use every one of them to build the seasoning. I also do the oven bake seasoning method on my iron with great results. Now that I have a familiarity with cast iron cooking, I have been very pleased with the performance. All vintage stuff that is glassy smooth and takes a nice seasoning layer that builds into a very nice cooking experience. Primary disadvantage to me is weight (larger pans) and warm up time/responsiveness.

I see threads of people spending hours and hours thinning and refinishing a knife that was brand new and cost over $400. I don't feel too bad fiddling with a $40 carbon steel pan and trying to figure out how to best use it to it's potential. Even if it takes a little more work to get it to hold a seasoning compared to others. I do hope that eventually it will hold a stable seasoning. If not, my investment is small. 

If we all wanted no-maintenance cooking, we would all buy Teflon pans and Soft Stainless knives, but there is enjoyment in babying (or not) a high maintenance product for that little extra performance.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

KitchenCommander said:


> I don't have any stainless pots or pans at all. It was not something I have ever tried. I will need to look for an All-Clad D3 to try out in a sauce pan for tomato sauces or other high liquid applications. I typically use a teflon pan for that these days. I've seen some All-Clad cookware at TJ-Maxx at nice discounts. I've bought a few Caphalon Teflon pans as they seem to be one of the best Teflon brands I have tried.
> 
> Just brought back 4 more pieces of cast iron from a giant flea market in NE Texas to add to my collection. Plan to use every one of them to build the seasoning. I also do the oven bake seasoning method on my iron with great results. Now that I have a familiarity with cast iron cooking, I have been very pleased with the performance. All vintage stuff that is glassy smooth and takes a nice seasoning layer that builds into a very nice cooking experience. Primary disadvantage to me is weight (larger pans) and warm up time/responsiveness.
> 
> I see threads of people spending hours and hours thinning and refinishing a knife that was brand new and cost over $400. I don't feel too bad fiddling with a $40 carbon steel pan and trying to figure out how to best use it to it's potential. Even if it takes a little more work to get it to hold a seasoning compared to others. I do hope that eventually it will hold a stable seasoning. If not, my investment is small.
> 
> If we all wanted no-maintenance cooking, we would all buy Teflon pans and Soft Stainless knives, but there is enjoyment in babying (or not) a high maintenance product for that little extra performance.



I use my stainless steel a LOT. I'm partial to Made In but that's just personal preference. One very nice aspect of stainless for sauce pans is how much easier it is to see in them vs. that black background. I freaking love my 3.5qt saucier.  I also really like establishing a fond for nice pan sauces and stainless is awesome for that.

My wife was rocking two of our carbon pans last night. Like I said, they aren't going anywhere, I'm just done trying to perfect them. They'll just need a little more oil/fat and off we go.


----------



## KitchenCommander

I see Made In adds everywhere. Their heavy marketing is almost turning me off. Are they quality stuff, and how do they compare in price to ALL Clad?

I find the more I fuss over the perfect smooth finish on cast iron, the more harm I do trying to "fix" it. I've done this several times, scraping some insignificant bumps on the cooking surface only to scrape a hole right in my nice seasoning layer. Then I cuss myself and have to try and repair the damage with more use.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

KitchenCommander said:


> I see Made In adds everywhere. Their heavy marketing is almost turning me off. Are they quality stuff, and how do they compare in price to ALL Clad?
> 
> I find the more I fuss over the perfect smooth finish on cast iron, the more harm I do trying to "fix" it. I've done this several times, scraping some insignificant bumps on the cooking surface only to scrape a hole right in my nice seasoning layer. Then I cuss myself and have to try and repair the damage with more use.



I first got on the Made In train before they kind of exploded on the ad scene. For new pans, I think they compare favorably to All Clad and others and are often cheaper. They are indeed quality. I also prefer satin/brushed metal finishes to polished so that's an extra bonus for me. I currently have five pieces of their stainless and before too awful long I'll be adding a sixth in the form of their saute pan (which also comes in non-stick but I'm not sure it's worth dropping a lot of coin on non-stick stuff).

I might also get one of their new baking dishes for my daughter.


----------



## Jovidah

KitchenCommander said:


> If we all wanted no-maintenance cooking, we would all buy Teflon pans and Soft Stainless knives, but there is enjoyment in babying (or not) a high maintenance product for that little extra performance.


Although teflon pans certainly have their uses, they're anything but fuss-free. They simply don't fry as nicely, you can't use them at really high temps or it'll burn the teflon, you can't use half the tools in them, and on top of that even if you baby them you'll still end up replacing them every years. Then there's the uncertainty about long term health effects of constantly eating teflon. 

If you really want no-maintenance, stainless clad aluminium is where it's at IMO. Also has its limitations in cooking of course, but the most forgiving to any sort of abuse.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

KitchenCommander said:


> I see Made In adds everywhere. Their heavy marketing is almost turning me off. Are they quality stuff, and how do they compare in price to ALL Clad?
> 
> I find the more I fuss over the perfect smooth finish on cast iron, the more harm I do trying to "fix" it. I've done this several times, scraping some insignificant bumps on the cooking surface only to scrape a hole right in my nice seasoning layer. Then I cuss myself and have to try and repair the damage with more use.



FWIW buddy, tonight I made fried chicken with sweet chili sauce and str fry veggies:






So you're looing at a sticky honey-based sauce, fry oil, and high-temp sauteing ending with a sauce.

I did it all with these Made In stainless pans:






The 2qt sauce pan (shown here cleaned) did the chili sauce. The 3.5qt saucier fried the chicken (only had a few small pieces so it was fine), and the fry pan took care of the veggies. Clean up was easy but if you do run into any issues, a touch of Bar Keepers Friend goes a long way.

One of my biggest cooking regrets is not investing in good stainless cookware years ago. Choose whatever brand you prefer, but I really think stainless is worth exploring. There's a place for everything so I'm not suggesting stainless is all ya need, but I will say they'd be the last pans you'd get away from me.


----------



## Ruso

HumbleHomeCook said:


> FWIW buddy, tonight I made fried chicken with sweet chili sauce and str fry veggies:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you're looing at a sticky honey-based sauce, fry oil, and high-temp sauteing ending with a sauce.
> 
> I did it all with these Made In stainless pans:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2qt sauce pan (shown here cleaned) did the chili sauce. The 3.5qt saucier fried the chicken (only had a few small pieces so it was fine), and the fry pan took care of the veggies. Clean up was easy but if you do run into any issues, a touch of Bar Keepers Friend goes a long way.
> 
> One of my biggest cooking regrets is not investing in good stainless cookware years ago. Choose whatever brand you prefer, but I really think stainless is worth exploring. There's a place for everything so I'm not suggesting stainless is all ya need, but I will say they'd be the last pans you'd get away from me.


How do you season stainless? 
What brands of stainless pans worth looking at?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Ruso said:


> How do you season stainless?
> What brands of stainless pans worth looking at?




So there are methods for "seasoning" stainless. You can find quite a few videos on YouTube and such.

But, to be honest, I don't bother.

You can get the pan nice and hot and things won't stick too bad if you want. This is what I tend to do. A common way to tell is if you drop some water in the pan and it stays in one bubble that floats around the surface, you can add your oil and start cooking. One key is to let things cook enough to release naturally without prying.

Sometimes I want things to stick so I get a fond that I can scrape up into a sauce.

Now, I'm not going to use these pans for everything if I have other options so for sure there are times when something non-stick is better but you can do a lot with stainless And cleanup isn't terrible anyway. Often a little water and then placed on a warm burner will let you scrape most everything out and as I said, if not, some BKF will take care of things.

As for brands, there are lots and they span the spectrum from super low end to super high end. I am partial to the Made In brand. All Clad is extremely popular and has a number of different lines. Others are De Buyer, Matfer Bourgeat, Mauviel, Paderno, Viking, and many more.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject though. You could always start up a new thread dedicated to your questions and I'm sure there will be some great responses from the more experienced KKF folks!


----------



## M1k3

Ruso said:


> How do you season stainless?
> What brands of stainless pans worth looking at?


Heating it up until it discolors helps make it more "non-stick".


----------



## boomchakabowwow

my DuBeyer pan is older. very well seasoned for the most part. eggs slide around. it never leaves my stovetop.

BUT. i did a saute for two. i tossed in a couple of fistfulls of halved cherry tomatoes and cooked them while smashing them up. delicious with the entire pan load poured over chops i seared cooked earlier in the same pan. you know what? it took the bottom of my pan and stripped the seasoning off clean. like back to silver gray!! hahha..i didnt care. i cleaned it, and just started cooking again, and it is browning up slowly again. eggs still slide. but my pan is not the poster child of a well seasoned pan. it looks awful.


----------



## tomsch

One carbon steel pan that I'm using like crazy is my Made-in wok. For some reason it continues to remain very non stick. It may have to do with the fact that since it is a wok I pre-heat to a very high temp for stir frying which may be the best way for a carbon steel pan. Well, at least this carbon steel wok.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

tomsch said:


> One carbon steel pan that I'm using like crazy is my Made-in wok. For some reason it continues to remain very non stick. It may have to do with the fact that since it is a wok I pre-heat to a very high temp for stir frying which may be the best way for a carbon steel pan. Well, at least this carbon steel wok.








Made-In Cookware Sale


I see that Made-In is having a sale. Up to 25% off. By the looks of it, there's some pretty good prices going on. I'm a fan of their stainless cookware. https://madeincookware.com/collections/blackfriday




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## madmotts

I made the jump a few years ago to carbon steel and getting/understand the seasoning was painful. In the beginning my layers were too thick, flakey and i overheated my pan. I got to the point of giving up and then I figured out a few things.

My electric stovetop needn’t be turned to 7 ever (white hot pan). This is the pan reset feature & warp mode
Re-seasoning is not a big deal. 
Apply thin layers of oil. I use a paper towel and tongs. I like canola per KKF rec.
Throughly clean the pan. She doesn’t like garlic undertones in her crepes. She tells me so.
Use it often. fried eggs slide like glass.


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## MarcelNL

I have never been able to clean pans enough to avoid garlicky crepes, whether that is Teflon or CS...
Is there a way to do so without using dishwashing soap at all?

(usually end up offering the first 'throwaway' pancake to the bin for multiple reasons)


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## tally-ho

esoo said:


> I can't find the article, but there was one a number of years ago, referred to by tons of people, that was very science-y about the polymerization point of the flax seed and how it would create a wonderful "plastic" like coating. It talked about 7 coatings in the oven, IIRC. I remember reading it, thinking it was a lot of work. Then when you read all the reviews, it just flaked. I suspect the problem is that you never actually bond the oil to the pan the way you do with the other methods which "burn" the oil to the pan.


Is it this one you were talking about ?


Chemistry of Cast Iron Seasoning: A Science-Based How-To | Sheryl's Blog


----------



## esoo

tally-ho said:


> Is it this one you were talking about ?
> 
> 
> Chemistry of Cast Iron Seasoning: A Science-Based How-To | Sheryl's Blog



I recall something formatted differently, but it may have been the same person. There is the claim of "science" here with very little to actually back that up.


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## JASinIL2006

esoo said:


> I recall something formatted differently, but it may have been the same person. There is the claim of "science" here with very little to actually back that up.



I saw something similar, too, but it wasn't the Sheryl Canter blog. I had the same experience that many others did... the seasoning looked pretty, but it didn't last. Flakes came off in food... it wasn't a durable seasoning. I've had much better luck using plain old canola oil, for both carbon steel and cast iron.


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## coxhaus

MarcelNL said:


> I have never been able to clean pans enough to avoid garlicky crepes, whether that is Teflon or CS...
> Is there a way to do so without using dishwashing soap at all?
> 
> (usually end up offering the first 'throwaway' pancake to the bin for multiple reasons)



I have my mom's old carbon steel French crepe pan which I don't cook with garlic in. It works great for pancakes also. It is the one on the left. There is always a good reason to buy another pan. You need to let it heat up on low for a good while to get a good first one. Besides carbon steel crepe pans are cheap no reason not to buy one.


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## madmotts

coxhaus said:


> I have my mom's old carbon steel French crepe pan which I don't cook with garlic in. It works great for pancakes also. It is the one on the left. There is always a good reason to buy another pan. You need to let it heat up on low for a good while to get a good first one. Besides carbon steel crepe pans are cheap no reason not to buy one.


Simple, smart. i hadn't thought of that. Similar but different- i have fruit only cutting board.


----------



## Steampunk

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I had to re-season a DeBuyer Mineral B again tonight, and think I'm narrowing in on something...

All the things mentioned so far matter... Using the pan as much as possible, not being worried about cranking the temps, not babying it (Metal tools, abrasive scrubbing when needed, etc.), etc... However, there's something about taking the temp to a certain level above the smoke-point of the fat in question, for a certain amount of time that is a factor.

I'm typically seasoning with grapeseed oil, as this is the high-temp oil I keep on hand, and it's also used by Stargazer, who was the first company I saw that talked about the surface profile being an important feature of making the seasoning stick (They had to start media-blasting their pans after polishing to introduce a subtle texture.)... To get the oil to turn from golden-brown to black, and then 'durable glassy black', I've noticed that I'm having to take the pan way, WAY above the smoke point, and also hold it at those temps beyond when the pan has stopped smoking.

Grapeseed has a smoke point ~475f, but I've been noticing it really doesn't transform into that glossy-black, polymerized layer until it hits _at least _~575f. I.E. 100f beyond its smoke point. This wouldn't be an issue, if it weren't for the fact that carbon and cast iron aren't the best conductors, and the fact that most domestic stoves have huge cold spots on the burners... I heated up my Mineral B slowly tonight, over about 20-minutes, gradually increasing the heat (Even using the trick of shutting off the heat partway through, giving the pan a few minutes to let the heat naturally defuse through the metal, and then putting it back on the heat. This is a good trick when you need to get carbon or cast iron to heat evenly when cooking delicate things.), and even so the temperature differential of the pan was ~425f in the center, and ~680f on the periphery... This is with a sealed-burner Thermidor range, with the star-shaped burners. My 3mm Mineral B's heat more evenly than my old Griswold's, but still that was a somewhat unavoidable heat differential with very careful heat management.

The result? The outer periphery was a hard, glossy black after 2-coats of grapeseed oil (I've already learned not to pile on too much seasoning without cooking in the pan. 1-2 coats is about as much as you can do without compromising the 'integrity' of the seasoning without some salts/acids from cooking involved to work some sort of magic to strengthen the polymerization that I'm still trying to understand. After 1-2 coats, you just need to start cooking.). The center 1.5" of the pan, was still brown. So, I gave it a bit more time... 5-Minutes later, it wasn't smoking anymore, but I was slowly watching the center transform. It was now ~515-525f, and very slowly turning from brown to black. The outside rim of the pan had now reached ~720f+, and had turned glossy in some places, and chalky black in others, with a tiny bit of the heat blueing starting to show in places under the seasoning.

After 10 more minutes, I started backing down the heat, as I had achieved a sort of patchy black at the center of the pan that didn't seem to be improving, with a temp of ~550f, and the outer edge was now reaching almost 800f in places (My IR thermometer was starting to error, and just read places as 'HOT'.)... I started decreasing the heat slowly, to prevent warping the pan.

Compared to my cheap US-made WokShop wok (Which I had to grind the rust out of upon arrival, and as such is probably more polished than my pickled DeBuyer pans.), the Mineral B was able to withstand extreme heat for much longer without peeling. Surface profile is most certainly part of the equation, and possibly something with the alloy having enough carbon content to keep generating an oxide layer over time that helps the seasoning to hold. DeBuyer advertises 1% carbon, and cast iron is typically ~3% carbon. I'm sure cheap woks are probably made of something like 1018 mild steel (0.18% carbon). Having pans that are 'more reactive', might actually be a benefit in forming a blued-oxide layer that will help seasoning to adhere over time. Industrially, oxide layers are used to promote coating adhesion, just like - though to a lesser extent than - mechanically abraded surface profiles. Seasoning (Polymerized oil) largely requires the same conditions as paints or coatings to adhere to metal.

Carbon depletion might be a 'thing' with the sort of high temps that certain pans like woks see. I need to check the material-science charts. I'm certainly seeing that my Wok is blueing less, and requiring higher temps to do so than it did at first, and I'm trying to find an explanation as to why.

Getting back on-point regarding pan temps needing to be a certain amount over the smoke point of the oil... Heat and time are a factor, and this is very hard to achieve on sealed gas burners (Or electric coils, or induction to even worse extents.) with carbon or cast iron pans to sufficiently exceed the smoke-point of high-temp oils to achieve a durable seasoning... Open, multi-ring gas burners would probably be needed to achieve more even heating on these metals, without cooking in them to even out the heat, and also introducing other fats that start to polymerize at lower temperature.

Having food in the pan also helps to even-out the thermal mass, but this food needs to be cooked at a fairly high temperature if using something like Grapeseed oil, which features a high smoke point. It also needs to be cooked over a long duration (Multiple batches of things.), to let the polymerization start to take-hold across the entire pan.

Other oils and fats can feature lower smoke points, that might result in more even polymerization over uneven heat sources. However, some of these fats have a failure point, where the polymerized layer starts to flake. Hence, why Flaxseed seasonings look great at first, but ultimately fails.

So far, I'm seeing that - whilst butter is great for aiding low-temp nonstick properties of a pan - it surprisingly doesn't aid to developing the seasoning too much.

My next step is to test various fats/oils, to see what achieves even polymerization at lower temperatures than Grapeseed oil, but still doesn't suffer flaking at high temperatures. I'll update when I have these results.


----------



## Michi

I've made similar experiences. I season with rice bran oil with a smoke point of 232 ºC (446 ºF). When seasoning in the oven, I set the temperature to 250 ºC (482 ºF). This results in a nice very dark glossy layer that is very robust.


----------



## M1k3

Steampunk said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, but I had to re-season a DeBuyer Mineral B again tonight, and think I'm narrowing in on something...
> 
> All the things mentioned so far matter... Using the pan as much as possible, not being worried about cranking the temps, not babying it (Metal tools, abrasive scrubbing when needed, etc.), etc... However, there's something about taking the temp to a certain level above the smoke-point of the fat in question, for a certain amount of time that is a factor.
> 
> I'm typically seasoning with grapeseed oil, as this is the high-temp oil I keep on hand, and it's also used by Stargazer, who was the first company I saw that talked about the surface profile being an important feature of making the seasoning stick (They had to start media-blasting their pans after polishing to introduce a subtle texture.)... To get the oil to turn from golden-brown to black, and then 'durable glassy black', I've noticed that I'm having to take the pan way, WAY above the smoke point, and also hold it at those temps beyond when the pan has stopped smoking.
> 
> Grapeseed has a smoke point ~475f, but I've been noticing it really doesn't transform into that glossy-black, polymerized layer until it hits _at least _~575f. I.E. 100f beyond its smoke point. This wouldn't be an issue, if it weren't for the fact that carbon and cast iron aren't the best conductors, and the fact that most domestic stoves have huge cold spots on the burners... I heated up my Mineral B slowly tonight, over about 20-minutes, gradually increasing the heat (Even using the trick of shutting off the heat partway through, giving the pan a few minutes to let the heat naturally defuse through the metal, and then putting it back on the heat. This is a good trick when you need to get carbon or cast iron to heat evenly when cooking delicate things.), and even so the temperature differential of the pan was ~425f in the center, and ~680f on the periphery... This is with a sealed-burner Thermidor range, with the star-shaped burners. My 3mm Mineral B's heat more evenly than my old Griswold's, but still that was a somewhat unavoidable heat differential with very careful heat management.
> 
> The result? The outer periphery was a hard, glossy black after 2-coats of grapeseed oil (I've already learned not to pile on too much seasoning without cooking in the pan. 1-2 coats is about as much as you can do without compromising the 'integrity' of the seasoning without some salts/acids from cooking involved to work some sort of magic to strengthen the polymerization that I'm still trying to understand. After 1-2 coats, you just need to start cooking.). The center 1.5" of the pan, was still brown. So, I gave it a bit more time... 5-Minutes later, it wasn't smoking anymore, but I was slowly watching the center transform. It was now ~515-525f, and very slowly turning from brown to black. The outside rim of the pan had now reached ~720f+, and had turned glossy in some places, and chalky black in others, with a tiny bit of the heat blueing starting to show in places under the seasoning.
> 
> After 10 more minutes, I started backing down the heat, as I had achieved a sort of patchy black at the center of the pan that didn't seem to be improving, with a temp of ~550f, and the outer edge was now reaching almost 800f in places (My IR thermometer was starting to error, and just read places as 'HOT'.)... I started decreasing the heat slowly, to prevent warping the pan.
> 
> Compared to my cheap US-made WokShop wok (Which I had to grind the rust out of upon arrival, and as such is probably more polished than my pickled DeBuyer pans.), the Mineral B was able to withstand extreme heat for much longer without peeling. Surface profile is most certainly part of the equation, and possibly something with the alloy having enough carbon content to keep generating an oxide layer over time that helps the seasoning to hold. DeBuyer advertises 1% carbon, and cast iron is typically ~3% carbon. I'm sure cheap woks are probably made of something like 1018 mild steel (0.18% carbon). Having pans that are 'more reactive', might actually be a benefit in forming a blued-oxide layer that will help seasoning to adhere over time. Industrially, oxide layers are used to promote coating adhesion, just like - though to a lesser extent than - mechanically abraded surface profiles. Seasoning (Polymerized oil) largely requires the same conditions as paints or coatings to adhere to metal.
> 
> Carbon depletion might be a 'thing' with the sort of high temps that certain pans like woks see. I need to check the material-science charts. I'm certainly seeing that my Wok is blueing less, and requiring higher temps to do so than it did at first, and I'm trying to find an explanation as to why.
> 
> Getting back on-point regarding pan temps needing to be a certain amount over the smoke point of the oil... Heat and time are a factor, and this is very hard to achieve on sealed gas burners (Or electric coils, or induction to even worse extents.) with carbon or cast iron pans to sufficiently exceed the smoke-point of high-temp oils to achieve a durable seasoning... Open, multi-ring gas burners would probably be needed to achieve more even heating on these metals, without cooking in them to even out the heat, and also introducing other fats that start to polymerize at lower temperature.
> 
> Having food in the pan also helps to even-out the thermal mass, but this food needs to be cooked at a fairly high temperature if using something like Grapeseed oil, which features a high smoke point. It also needs to be cooked over a long duration (Multiple batches of things.), to let the polymerization start to take-hold across the entire pan.
> 
> Other oils and fats can feature lower smoke points, that might result in more even polymerization over uneven heat sources. However, some of these fats have a failure point, where the polymerized layer starts to flake. Hence, why Flaxseed seasonings look great at first, but ultimately fails.
> 
> So far, I'm seeing that - whilst butter is great for aiding low-temp nonstick properties of a pan - it surprisingly doesn't aid to developing the seasoning too much.
> 
> My next step is to test various fats/oils, to see what achieves even polymerization at lower temperatures than Grapeseed oil, but still doesn't suffer flaking at high temperatures. I'll update when I have these results.


Crank the oven and use that?


----------



## coxhaus

Michi said:


> I've not yet re-seasoned my wok or my cast iron pan. When I'm done cleaning, I just wipe the most minute film of oil onto the pan (as if seasoning for the first time) and then put it back on the heat until I see the first wisps of smoke. Then let it cool down.
> 
> I don't do this every time, only when I notice that the surface starts to look a bit dull. Things have been nicely non-stick for me this way (as much as I can expect without a Teflon-type coating).



I am starting to do this with my carbon steel pans. It seems to work and it is simpler than a complete re-season.


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## coxhaus

I have not got the seasoning where I like it on the Matfer pan. My DeBuyer Mineral B is better but it is a few years older and thicker carbon steel. After cleaning with chainmail this last time I can smell the metal on the Matfer pan with my nose close but I cannot on Debuyer Mineral B pan.

Once I smoked some oil on the stove top in the pans I could no longer smell metal.


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## NotAddictedYet

I recently got a carbon wok from an asian cookware shop for the first time, and I wonder i can get some advice from veterans here. The wok came with some sort of protective coating and the shop owner told me to just heat it up on stove until smoking stops and just cook in it and make sure it is dry after use.

I've tried to heat it (as evenly as possible, the BTU rating is probably too low) on my gas stove (I did this for a couple of hours). Now I get some rings of blue, and the bottom turned silver.
- Does this mean the protective coating burned off on the bottom?
- Do I need to remove the rest of the protective coating before seasoning?
- Does seasoning apply to the outside of the wok or just inside?


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## Michi

Looks pretty good to me. If in any doubt, just scrub it hard with Scotch Brite pad and soap. Then season it and cook with it.

If you are seasoning in an oven, you might as well do the outside, too. Only need to do this once, in my experience. Before putting the pan away, wipe an extremely thin (think: non-existent) film of oil over the outside and inside, to prevent rust.


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## Grayswandir

NotAddictedYet said:


> I recently got a carbon wok from an asian cookware shop for the first time, and I wonder i can get some advice from veterans here. The wok came with some sort of protective coating and the shop owner told me to just heat it up on stove until smoking stops and just cook in it and make sure it is dry after use.
> 
> I've tried to heat it (as evenly as possible, the BTU rating is probably too low) on my gas stove (I did this for a couple of hours). Now I get some rings of blue, and the bottom turned silver.
> - Does this mean the protective coating burned off on the bottom?
> - Do I need to remove the rest of the protective coating before seasoning?
> - Does seasoning apply to the outside of the wok or just inside?


The blue color is from the heat, yellow also appears sometimes. You should still season the pan with oil, but make sure to give it a good cleaning before you season your wok. The color change means you've most likely burnt off the protective coating and the wok is now ready to be seasoned with oil.


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## Greasylake

Agree with above. I just seasoned my carbon wok by stir frying a bunch of onion, scallions and garlic in oil until they were pretty toasted. Gave it a really nice starting patina.


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## Grayswandir

Greasylake said:


> Agree with above. I just seasoned my carbon wok by stir frying a bunch of onion, scallions and garlic in oil until they were pretty toasted. Gave it a really nice starting patina.


I never tried that before, using the aromatics, I'll have to give it a go. Any special instructions?


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## Greasylake

Grayswandir said:


> I never tried that before, using the aromatics, I'll have to give it a go. Any special instructions?


Nope nothing too special. Just get your oil hot, toss in your preferred mix of aromatics, and toast them until you can't toast them anymore. Try to move everything around in the wok from the bottom to the rim, so you can get a nice season and to get the patina higher up.


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## Grayswandir

Greasylake said:


> Nope nothing too special. Just get your oil hot, toss in your preferred mix of aromatics, and toast them until you can't toast them anymore. Try to move everything around in the wok from the bottom to the rim, so you can get a nice season and to get the patina higher up.


Excellent, thank you.


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## Brian Weekley

The Breakfast Method …

I’ve used carbon pans for years. That means that I’ve tried (with varying success) most of the methods suggested for seasoning my carbon pans. My most recent and possibly the most successful method is what I call the breakfast method.

Being a guy I abhor change of any kind. Nowhere is this more evident than in my breakfasts. It’s sausages and eggs … thats it! OK occasionally I’ll do bacon instead but I learned long ago sugar cured bacon and pan seasoning are like a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart. The sugar will remove the best seasoning in seconds so I keep a small stainless pan for the times I have bacon instead of sausages. I might change types of sausages depending on what’s on sale and may scramble my eggs instead of sunny side up … but that’s it! So … what do my pans look like …

Here’s a couple of pics …









Not a bad seasoning job if I do say so myself. The smaller pan is used exclusively for eggs and I get an additional thrill when my cooked eggs just slide from pan to plate without any physical encouragement. So … how is this “breakfast method” seasoning accomplished. I steam my sausages (covered) in about 3/8” of water for four to six minutes depending on whether I start with them frozen or thawed. At five minutes into the cook I start my egg pan on low heat with a touch of avocado oil. Two minutes later when the pan is warm I start the eggs and generally cook them covered. I like the bit of cook to the top of the yokes that comes from a covered cook. A few more pics …
















When I start the eggs I drain the sausages and add a touch of oil or bacon fat. I attend to the eggs and sausages for about 3 minutes to finish the cook paying most attention to moving the sausages around because they will stick a bit if you don’t move them from time to time. Another pic …






Times up … eggs onto the plate followed by the nicely browned sausage. Todays result …






Yesterdays result to prove that I’m a little accepting of change (my English muffins went mouldy today).






Yesterdays eggs were better. The pan today was a little hot when I put the eggs in.

The point of all this is not to prove that after 72 years I have finally learned how to make breakfast. The result is in the pictures starting above and after countless breakfasts I have perfectly seasoned carbon pans. Cleanup is kosher salt and a folded paper towel.

Have at it and report only successful results!


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## NotAddictedYet

All excellent tips, thanks everybody.



Brian Weekley said:


> Have at it and report only successful results!


 
Will do!


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## MarcelNL

did anyone crack the code to fry Tofu in a carbon steel pan? I just made the error to use the carbon pan that I used to fry up some mushrooms for a noodle soup for the Tofu....instant sticky mess, I upped the heat in a hope to liberate the protein but no dice....


----------



## Mr.Wizard

Does anyone make a nitrocarburized (QPQ) carbon steel pan? Are there toxicity concerns that preclude it? It would solve the reactivity problem, reduce friction, and radiate better than a stainless pan.


----------



## Rangen

Mr.Wizard said:


> Does anyone make a nitrocarburized (QPQ) carbon steel pan? Are there toxicity concerns that preclude it? It would solve the reactivity problem, reduce friction, and radiate better than a stainless pan.



OK, what the heck is that? Is it something you do to carburetors when drag racing?


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## Mr.Wizard

It is a thermochemical case-hardening process that passivates the upper layer of the steel. It produces a hard, corrosion resistant, wear resistant, reduced-friction surface. It has been used in the bores of gun barrels so it should be able to handle the rigors of cooking. The dark color should radiate almost like cast iron allowing for efficient browning.


----------



## rmrf

Mr.Wizard said:


> It is a thermochemical case-hardening process that passivates the upper layer of the steel. It produces a hard, corrosion resistant, wear resistant, reduced-friction surface. It has been used in the bores of gun barrels so it should be able to handle the rigors of cooking. The dark color should radiate almost like cast iron allowing for efficient browning.


My guess is temperature. Gas stove flame is blue. Blue flame is 1000 C and higher. Wikipedia says QPQ is a relatively low temperature process (500 C) so my first guess is that at cooking temperatures the nitrogen leaves or the process gets messed up somehow. But I don't know. I've never heard of QPQ before.

edit: However, this begs the question: is there a steel alloy that is somewhere between stainless and carbon steel that is better for cooking? That is, it is "seasonable" like carbon steel but relatively corrosion resistant? 

As a side note, I don't think radiation is the main energy loss mechanism in a fry pan. For a pan sitting in air, I'd guess it would be convection currents. For placing a cold steak on the pan, I would guess it is the local thermal conductivity as thermal conduction between meat and metal is probably pretty high and a steak probably has a lot of thermal mass. My guess is the dark color is indicative of either an oxide layer (like from blue-ing a wok) that limits corrosion or some polymer (from the oil cooked into it).


----------



## rmrf

MarcelNL said:


> did anyone crack the code to fry Tofu in a carbon steel pan? I just made the error to use the carbon pan that I used to fry up some mushrooms for a noodle soup for the Tofu....instant sticky mess, I upped the heat in a hope to liberate the protein but no dice....


I do soft through firm tofu in carbon steel all the time. I don't know what else I would use... I'm not exactly sure what problem you're having, but I'll describe my process. Maybe it will help?

I never do it in a dirty pan. I wash the pan out first if I need to. I then use pretty high heat, high enough to pass the mercury test on a stainless steel pan. My carbon steel pan sometimes smokes before it gets hot enough. I pour in a generous (not too deep, just enough to coat and a little more) oil into the pan and lay the tofu down. Flip as desired. If you are adverse to oil, you technically don't need it but the tofu won't be beautifully golden. It will be have brown splots. Still good, but not as delicious. I tend to use less oil than truly necessary for health reasons.

That sounded easy right? Well, I don't find that to be the entire story. Tofu, especially softer tofus, tend to break up if you are too rough with them. So, flipping many times is a challenge. You could use a firmer tofu, but I love the contrast between crispy exterior and silky interior. My recommendation is to cut large cubes (1 in) or cut thin rectangles. My favorite is thin rectangles and then only fry the two large faces. Its not as delicious as perfectly seared cubes, but it is like 2/6th the time (6 faces, 6 flips per cube is a pain in the a**). I've flipped either with a fish spatula (many at a time) or one by one with tongs or chopsticks. Both work. Chopsticks work better for cubes and a fish spatula works better for the rectangles.

My problems with tofu dishes this way is that I want the sauce I make with the tofu to stick to the tofu but I hate cornstarch and the sauce makes the crust soggy. I haven't found a way around these problems yet. If I cook the tofu in the sauce, the tofu becomes soft and you lose some of that crunch. I end up frying the tofu, making the sauce, pouring the sauce into a plate and gently laying the tofu crispy side up and out of the liquid. It's not ideal though.

Its possible to do tofu in a stainless steel pan, but its hard to get the tofu to release without either a lot of oil or burning the tofu.

EDIT: I should note that I do all my tofu in a matfer fry pan. Maybe a very large round bottom wok would work, but I've never tried. Tofu is too tender for me to use my wok burner.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

Mr.Wizard said:


> It is a thermochemical case-hardening process that passivates the upper layer of the steel. It produces a hard, corrosion resistant, wear resistant, reduced-friction surface. It has been used in the bores of gun barrels so it should be able to handle the rigors of cooking. The dark color should radiate almost like cast iron allowing for efficient browning.


 sounds expensive. sounds like a clad stainless would be better money spent for me.

i'm cool with my carbon pan. sure its like a tantrumy child sometimes..but whatever.


----------



## MarcelNL

rmrf said:


> I do soft through firm tofu in carbon steel all the time. I don't know what else I would use... I'm not exactly sure what problem you're having, but I'll describe my process. Maybe it will help?
> 
> *I never do it in a dirty pan. I wash the pan out first if I need to. I then use pretty high heat, high enough to pass the mercury test on a stainless steel pan. My carbon steel pan sometimes smokes before it gets hot enough. I pour in a generous (not too deep, just enough to coat and a little more) oil into the pan and lay the tofu down. Flip as desired. If you are adverse to oil, you technically don't need it but the tofu won't be beautifully golden. It will be have brown splots. Still good, but not as delicious. I tend to use less oil than truly necessary for health reasons.*
> 
> That sounded easy right? Well, I don't find that to be the entire story. Tofu, especially softer tofus, tend to break up if you are too rough with them. So, flipping many times is a challenge. You could use a firmer tofu, but I love the contrast between crispy exterior and silky interior. My recommendation is to cut large cubes (1 in) or cut thin rectangles. My favorite is thin rectangles and then only fry the two large faces. Its not as delicious as perfectly seared cubes, but it is like 2/6th the time (6 faces, 6 flips per cube is a pain in the a**). I've flipped either with a fish spatula (many at a time) or one by one with tongs or chopsticks. Both work. Chopsticks work better for cubes and a fish spatula works better for the rectangles.
> 
> My problems with tofu dishes this way is that I want the sauce I make with the tofu to stick to the tofu but I hate cornstarch and the sauce makes the crust soggy. I haven't found a way around these problems yet. If I cook the tofu in the sauce, the tofu becomes soft and you lose some of that crunch. I end up frying the tofu, making the sauce, pouring the sauce into a plate and gently laying the tofu crispy side up and out of the liquid. It's not ideal though.
> 
> Its possible to do tofu in a stainless steel pan, but its hard to get the tofu to release without either a lot of oil or burning the tofu.
> 
> EDIT: I should note that I do all my tofu in a matfer fry pan. Maybe a very large round bottom wok would work, but I've never tried. Tofu is too tender for me to use my wok burner.



I did indeed do all of that and the Tofu just clung to the pan like heck...

When using Tofu with a sauce I add it once the Tofu is fried, all sauces make for a soggy crust so timing is of the essence yet I usually look for another ingredient to add crunch.


----------



## Mr.Wizard

boomchakabowwow said:


> sounds expensive. sounds like a clad stainless would be better money spent for me.



Probably, but with the money people here spend on knives I suspect there is a market if it works as I suppose.


----------



## rmrf

MarcelNL said:


> I did indeed do all of that and the Tofu just clung to the pan like heck...
> 
> When using Tofu with a sauce I add it once the Tofu is fried, all sauces make for a soggy crust so timing is of the essence yet I usually look for another ingredient to add crunch.


Thats a good tip with the sauce. I'll try it next time. Usually the tofu dish is the first I make so it does sit a little while.

Regarding tofu sticking, maybe try not moving it for longer? Usually, I nudge the piece I put in the pan first and when it slides I start moving all of them. High heat and patience usually works for me. If I'm in a rush, I just scrape below them with a fish spatula and flip, but sometimes things do get left behind.

I also used to dry the surface of the tofu with paper towels. Just blot dry, not press dry with a weight. It helps, but I haven't done it in a while. I also used to put each tofu piece down 1 by 1 instead of just pouring them all in and shaking the pan (like I do now). 

Since I can remember, I only get slight sticking problems when my pan isn't hot enough or if my pan is too hot. Next time I make tofu I'll try and see if I'm doing anything different.

I've noticed a large difference in texture between fresh and old tofu, but I don't think that's your problem.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

Mr.Wizard said:


> Probably, but with the money people here spend on knives I suspect there is a market if it works as I suppose.


touche. forgot the audience here. haha


----------



## MarcelNL

rmrf said:


> Thats a good tip with the sauce. I'll try it next time. Usually the tofu dish is the first I make so it does sit a little while.
> 
> Regarding tofu sticking, maybe try not moving it for longer? Usually, I nudge the piece I put in the pan first and when it slides I start moving all of them. High heat and patience usually works for me. If I'm in a rush, I just scrape below them with a fish spatula and flip, but sometimes things do get left behind.
> 
> I also used to dry the surface of the tofu with paper towels. Just blot dry, not press dry with a weight. It helps, but I haven't done it in a while. I also used to put each tofu piece down 1 by 1 instead of just pouring them all in and shaking the pan (like I do now).
> 
> Since I can remember, I only get slight sticking problems when my pan isn't hot enough or if my pan is too hot. Next time I make tofu I'll try and see if I'm doing anything different.
> 
> I've noticed a large difference in texture between fresh and old tofu, but I don't think that's your problem.


If anything the pan might have been too hot, I drained and dabbed the Tofu dry, let it sit in the pan to get 'unstuck' and tried to loosen them when it became clear they would not get unstuck on their own...
I'll try my other (older and larger) carbon steel pan next time, to see if it perhaps is a coating issue...

Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated!


----------



## NotAddictedYet

All seasoned up.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

MarcelNL said:


> did anyone crack the code to fry Tofu in a carbon steel pan? I just made the error to use the carbon pan that I used to fry up some mushrooms for a noodle soup for the Tofu....instant sticky mess, I upped the heat in a hope to liberate the protein but no dice....



just a few moments ago: i tossed some Tofu into my wok. i immediately thought of you and your woes. i started with a clean wok and did the Tofu first. FIRST! if you have to remove your tofu when it is cooked then do so. then do the mushrooms.

i grimaced and tossed it in..no sticking. it swirled around easily. 

first time i did this. i went with some insurance of an added spritz of some non stick spray. not sure if it helped or not, but it didnt stick. i wasnt confident at all.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

NotAddictedYet said:


> All seasoned up.
> 
> View attachment 161721


 looks a tad thick to me. but if i learned anything, a wok is very forgiving. the seasoning is on thin ice anyways during the preheat of the wok. i get mine rocket hot.


----------



## OldSaw

I should have took pictures. But anyway, I made bacon in two pans this morning. One in a Demeyere Proline fry pan and the other in a Solidteknics carbon steel. They both had a little sticking. However, the Demeyere pan made much nicer bacon. They curled less and looked more evenly cooked. The Demeyere was even easier to clean.

I love my Solidteknics pans, but also love my Demeyere pans. Lately I find myself gravitating toward the Demeyere for nearly everything that needs a pan. The Demeyere Atlantis and Proline series use the same amount (very little) of oil or butter as any well seasoned carbon or cast iron.

The allure of carbon and iron is really waning these days. I have rid my home of all factory made nonstick pans. They all chip or flake and many are toxic, no matter how careful you are. So Demeyere is moving into the top spot for me.


----------



## tomsch

I'm still loving my carbon steel Made-in wok. When I pre-heat with oil basically nothing sticks. Cast iron remains my beater pans but the wok is being used for way more different foods then I though.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

i'm about to try popcorn in my wok. i think my scavenging dog is gonna love it!!


----------



## sansho

rmrf said:


> edit: However, this begs the question: is there a steel alloy that is somewhere between stainless and carbon steel that is better for cooking? That is, it is "seasonable" like carbon steel but relatively corrosion resistant?



why not season stainless steel just like steel or cast iron? serious question.

this is something i've wondered about for a long time, and i think it's really weird that i can't find online anecdotes of people doing this. i've tried, but maybe i suck at searching.

polymerized oil seems pretty sturdy on the outsides of my stainless skillets (just from incidental spillover during cooking). seems like it should work fine.


----------



## rmrf

sansho said:


> why not season stainless steel just like steel or cast iron? serious question.
> 
> this is something i've wondered about for a long time, and i think it's really weird that i can't find online anecdotes of people doing this. i've tried, but maybe i suck at searching.
> 
> polymerized oil seems pretty sturdy on the outsides of my stainless skillets (just from incidental spillover during cooking). seems like it should work fine.


I think you're right that SS can be "seasoned" with polymerized oil just like cast iron. Maybe it won't hold as well (maybe the chrome on stainless that prevents iron oxide also lessens the stickiness of the polymerized oil?) but it should still be possible. I've heard of people doing it and I've accidentally gotten oil burned on my ss pans and needed to scrub with barkeeper's friend to get it off. You can also "season" aluminum baking sheets in a very similar way that one seasons cast iron. I have a few that got seasoned and they work really well. If you can season aluminum oxide, I'd guess that you can season SS.

As to why one doesn't season SS, I suspect there isn't a good reason to do it. Seasoning the Al baking sheets is to reduce sticking and emissivity. For like 90% of my uses, I would prefer a cast iron or carbom steel half sheet tray, but I've never seen them and they would be really heavy. For SS, you usually want the stickiness to make a sauce or you want to be able to see the browning very accurately. If SS pans were cheaper than carbon steel, you'd probably see people trying to season SS more. In my opinion, there's not a lot of things that stick so bad to SS. For those rare foods, you can always use non-stick or carbon steel / cast iron. 

I guess if you made a dish that is very acidic and sticks very bad, you could think about using a seasoned SS pan. Maybe a crepe soaked in lemon juice? Or fried tofu stewed in a vinegar sauce?


----------



## Mr.Wizard

Mr.Wizard said:


> Does anyone make a nitrocarburized (QPQ) carbon steel pan? Are there toxicity concerns that preclude it? It would solve the reactivity problem, reduce friction, and radiate better than a stainless pan.



I seem to have found one at an unexpected source: GSI Outdoors, a camping equipment supplier. "Nitrided surface treatment helps to prevent corrosion."

They're not expensive. Hopefully this is really nitrocarburizing and it is done well enough. I think I am going to try one.









GSI Outdoors GUIDECAST Frying Pan 10"


The Guidecast Cast Iron fry pan is 35% lighter than traditional cast iron skillets, while offering uncompromising cooking performance. Nitrided surface treatment helps to prevent rusting or corrosion. Easy to clean and season.




gsioutdoors.com












GSI Outdoors GUIDECAST Thin Wall Cast Iron 12" Fry Pan


The Guidecast Cast Iron fry pan is 45% lighter than traditional cast iron skillets, while offering uncompromising cooking performance. Nitrided surface treatment helps to prevent rusting or corrosion. Easy to clean and season.




gsioutdoors.com


----------



## madmotts

Mr.Wizard said:


> I seem to have found one an unexpected source: GSI Outdoors, a camping equipment supplier. "Nitrided surface treatment helps to prevent corrosion."


Look fwd to hearing about it. 3.8lb for a 12" is light and a matfer 11" carbon steel is 4lb 11oz.


----------



## Mr.Wizard

@madmotts I'll post my thoughts if I do get one. Do you think it is too light to work well?


----------



## stringer

sansho said:


> why not season stainless steel just like steel or cast iron? serious question.
> 
> this is something i've wondered about for a long time, and i think it's really weird that i can't find online anecdotes of people doing this. i've tried, but maybe i suck at searching.
> 
> polymerized oil seems pretty sturdy on the outsides of my stainless skillets (just from incidental spillover during cooking). seems like it should work fine.



I'm not a fan. Aluminum and stainless work best clean and hit with a thin fresh film of oil right before each use. I've worked in restaurants where we did all of our seafood searing on plain restaurant supply aluminum pans. Trying to leave a durable polymerized film on stainless steel or aluminum cookware will just lead to dirty, stained, greasy pots and pans that smoke and impart crappy burnt flavors into whatever you are cooking. This is the condition of many pots and pans at many restaurants unfortunately. A real personal pet peeve of mine.

Stainless steel and aluminum works best if it's scoured completely down to bare metal after every use. You then oil it fresh while piping hot with every use. I just bought a brand new extra large aluminum rondeau for my cafe. I thought it was interesting that it did recommend seasoning it before first use by baking it with some oil. It said that that would prevent staining and sticking. I tried it. It still stained the first time we seared 50 pounds of short ribs in it. And then I scoured it down to shiny with a scotch brite pad like I do to all of the aluminum and stainless sheet pans, frying pans, sizzle plates, stock pots, etc. The next round it was much better. After repeated cooking and scouring it will develop a better cooking surface. But not from polymerized oil. But from the scouring. Basically, this type of cookware works much better if kept very clean, even polished.

I also hate it when places only run the sheet pans through the machine. They get all kinds of nasty buildup and baked on crap. And the aluminum oxide that does form is a powdery substance that turns food grey. And if you let the grease build up, especially around the edges, it will eventually carburize into a thick black crust. This isn't effective at anything except getting big flakes of burnt carbon crap into your food.

So scrape and scrub them as clean as you can every time. Stainless steel scrubbers work great but you gotta be very careful not to leave pieces of wire in the pan. Especially around rivets. They aren't even allowed in commercial kitchens anymore in some places (Massachusetts). A fresh green scotch brite pad works great and is all you need 90% of the time.

Sorry for the rant. But this is something that I've fought many battles over with dishwashers and line cooks throughout the years. Some people just don't like to scrub, but it's the only way to maintain aluminum and stainless pans. Or to clean things like ovens and grills without crazy harsh chemicals.


----------



## madmotts

Mr.Wizard said:


> @madmotts I'll post my thoughts if I do get one. Do you think it is too light to work well?


I'm looking for you to buy it and tell me . Honestly I'm not the right person to ask (home cook). I'm also on electric coil & induction burner. My current go-to pans are a DeBuyer carbon and Field cast iron. Always looking for other options to try tho.


----------



## M1k3

Another tip for stainless pans, heat it up until you get some color changing. It'll be a little more non-stick after.


----------



## Mr.Wizard

@madmotts I'll be ordering the 10" then. It is the same weight (3 lbs) as the Made In 10" blue carbon fry pan, so hopefully that's a sign it's an acceptable thickness. A have a big heirloom cast iron skillet and I want something smaller to complement it.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

stringer said:


> I'm not a fan. Aluminum and stainless work best clean and hit with a thin fresh film of oil right before each use. I've worked in restaurants where we did all of our seafood searing on plain restaurant supply aluminum pans. Trying to leave a durable polymerized film on stainless steel or aluminum cookware will just lead to dirty, stained, greasy pots and pans that smoke and impart crappy burnt flavors into whatever you are cooking. This is the condition of many pots and pans at many restaurants unfortunately. A real personal pet peeve of mine.
> 
> Stainless steel and aluminum works best if it's scoured completely down to bare metal after every use. You then oil it fresh while piping hot with every use. I just bought a brand new extra large aluminum rondeau for my cafe. I thought it was interesting that it did recommend seasoning it before first use by baking it with some oil. It said that that would prevent staining and sticking. I tried it. It still stained the first time we seared 50 pounds of short ribs in it. And then I scoured it down to shiny with a scotch brite pad like I do to all of the aluminum and stainless sheet pans, frying pans, sizzle plates, stock pots, etc. The next round it was much better. After repeated cooking and scouring it will develop a better cooking surface. But not from polymerized oil. But from the scouring. Basically, this type of cookware works much better if kept very clean.
> 
> I also hate it when places only run the sheet pans through the machine. They get all kinds of nasty buildup and baked on crap. And the aluminum oxide that does form is a powdery substance that turns food grey. And if you let the grease build up, especially around the edges, it will eventually carburize into a thick black crust. This isn't effective at anything except getting big flakes of burnt carbon crap into your food.
> 
> So scrape and scrub them as clean as you can every time. Stainless steel scrubbers work great but you gotta be very careful not to leave pieces of wire in the pan. Especially around rivets. They aren't even allowed in commercial kitchens anymore in some places (Massachusetts). A fresh green scotch brite pad works great and is all you need 90% of the time.
> 
> Sorry for the rant. But this is something that I've fought many battles over with dishwashers and line cooks throughout the years. Some people just don't like to scrub, but it's the only way to maintain aluminum and stainless pans. Or to clean things like ovens and grills without crazy harsh chemicals.



For the home cook, if something is really stubborn, a little Bar Keepers Friend will square it away.


----------



## lane

Heating up a steel pan of any kind (stainless, carbon, etc.) will cause a change in the microscopic surface structure of the steel, which needs to happen before using a pan. Some carbon steel pan makers recommend a basic heating before use, or do it for you before sale. Seasoning isn't necessary -- this is a phenomenon that happens in the steel itself. 

One thing that so many users don't seem to keep an eye on is that the pan has to be hot enough before it sees the food. Some pan makers (Butter Pat, for example) like to tell you to ignore seasoning and just heat the pan properly. If it isn't seasoned properly like all the YouTube videos say, you still get a very nice result from the cooking. I have one carbon steel pan that just doesn't take a durable seasoning without it flaking or peeling, so when I strip it off and just cook with the pan, getting it hot before starting, then everything works fine. Check out how to heat a pan properly on YouTube (about 60 videos available) and all kinds of articles on Wikipedia (plus look at related issues such as Mailliard Reaction which aren't quite the same but take yo to the same place). 

I don't know why someone above said that carbon steel and cast iron were fading away. If you're a short-order cook, you may want to use basic stainless pans just so you can scrub them down after and never have a problem with the health inspector who may object if they just look like some food residue is remaining. But for specialist purposes or for fine cuisine -- and of course if you're cooking from home -- there's plenty of room for good carbon steel and cast iron pans, not to mention high quality copper (if copper has faded it may be because of the generally mediocre quality of thin-walled copper pans in the market today -- you still need thick copper to heat evenly and those are both expensive and heavy). Give yourself a chance with a carbon steel pan and just try heating it properly and cooking with it. Ignore your seasoning and just see how it works. You might be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Mr.Wizard

lane said:


> Heating up a steel pan of any kind (stainless, carbon, etc.) will cause a change in the microscopic surface structure of the steel, which needs to happen before using a pan. Some carbon steel pan makers recommend a basic heating before use, or do it for you before sale. Seasoning isn't necessary -- this is a phenomenon that happens in the steel itself.



At what temperature does this change take place?


----------



## OldSaw

lane said:


> Heating up a steel pan of any kind (stainless, carbon, etc.) will cause a change in the microscopic surface structure of the steel, which needs to happen before using a pan. Some carbon steel pan makers recommend a basic heating before use, or do it for you before sale. Seasoning isn't necessary -- this is a phenomenon that happens in the steel itself.
> 
> One thing that so many users don't seem to keep an eye on is that the pan has to be hot enough before it sees the food. Some pan makers (Butter Pat, for example) like to tell you to ignore seasoning and just heat the pan properly. If it isn't seasoned properly like all the YouTube videos say, you still get a very nice result from the cooking. I have one carbon steel pan that just doesn't take a durable seasoning without it flaking or peeling, so when I strip it off and just cook with the pan, getting it hot before starting, then everything works fine. Check out how to heat a pan properly on YouTube (about 60 videos available) and all kinds of articles on Wikipedia (plus look at related issues such as Mailliard Reaction which aren't quite the same but take yo to the same place).
> 
> I don't know why someone above said that carbon steel and cast iron were fading away. If you're a short-order cook, you may want to use basic stainless pans just so you can scrub them down after and never have a problem with the health inspector who may object if they just look like some food residue is remaining. But for specialist purposes or for fine cuisine -- and of course if you're cooking from home -- there's plenty of room for good carbon steel and cast iron pans, not to mention high quality copper (if copper has faded it may be because of the generally mediocre quality of thin-walled copper pans in the market today -- you still need thick copper to heat evenly and those are both expensive and heavy). Give yourself a chance with a carbon steel pan and just try heating it properly and cooking with it. Ignore your seasoning and just see how it works. You might be pleasantly surprised.


Well, the seasoning does keep carbon and cast from rusting.

As far as heating the pan goes, I’ve been trying to explain this concept to my wife for years. Every time she makes scrambled eggs she leaves a thick cooked on mess in the pan, carbon, cast, Demeyere stainless, doesn’t matter. I make them in the same pans and they slide right out. In addition to not getting the heat right, she has a compulsion to constantly swish the eggs around and scrapes the fat off the bottom making them even more prone to sticking.


----------



## rmrf

OldSaw said:


> Every time she makes scrambled eggs she leaves a thick cooked on mess in the pan, carbon, cast, Demeyere stainless, doesn’t matter. I make them in the same pans and they slide right out. In addition to not getting the heat right, she has a compulsion to constantly swish the eggs around and scrapes the fat off the bottom making them even more prone to sticking.


I love scrambled eggs in a stainless steel pan. I know it sounds sacrilegious, but I like my scrambled eggs to be a little brown in parts but not even set in others. Stainless just lets me see what I'm doing so much easier.

I like the water drop/mercury/Leidenfrost effect test to check pre-heating. In fact, I find it significantly harder to get eggs to come out right now in carbon steel or cast iron because I know the timing of my stainless pans from observing the leidenfrost effect; I cannot do the same test on my carbon steel or cast iron. I suspect surface roughness is too high or polymerized oil is too thermally insulating.


----------



## rmrf

Mr.Wizard said:


> At what temperature does this change take place?


That's a great question. I don't know what microscopic changes happen on stainless steel, aluminum, and cast iron from 100-300C. It seems low to me for tempering and I have a hard time believing this same thing occurs on Al, cast iron, and whatever stainless they decided to use for pans. 

My guess is that its the leidenfrost effect which occurs with water at 193C (390F). This is around the smoke point of a lot of oils [ref]. Canola, vegetable, grapeseed are all ~400F. Refined olive is ~450 (I use this) and evoo and butter are ~350F.


----------



## lane

Mr.Wizard said:


> At what temperature does this change take place?


The temp varies with the steel and it's also a function of both temperature and time at heat. The effect starts around 450 F and is basically completed by about 500 F or slightly higher. It takes a good bit longer at 450, very little time at 500. Again, remember it depends on the steel or iron, with ductile iron having a much more pronounced effect but taking higher temps for longer times.


----------



## rmrf

lane said:


> The temp varies with the steel and it's also a function of both temperature and time at heat. The effect starts around 450 F and is basically completed by about 500 F or slightly higher. It takes a good bit longer at 450, very little time at 500. Again, remember it depends on the steel or iron, with ductile iron having a much more pronounced effect but taking higher temps for longer times.


I'm curious. What is happening at 450F? You said there's a microscopic change in surface structure but I'm not sure what that means. I tried to look up oxide formation but I didn't see anything that was obvious to me. Are you taking about austenite formation? I ran across a paper [Silva et al, material research 2015] but I don't know enough about material science to really comment. It didn't seem like anything significant was happening even at higher temperatures (300C) so I'm still confused.


----------



## OldSaw

rmrf said:


> I'm curious. What is happening at 450F? You said there's a microscopic change in surface structure but I'm not sure what that means. I tried to look up oxide formation but I didn't see anything that was obvious to me. Are you taking about austenite formation? I ran across a paper [Silva et al, material research 2015] but I don't know enough about material science to really comment. It didn't seem like anything significant was happening even at higher temperatures (300C) so I'm still confused.


Sometimes I overthink things. I think it’s important just to know that there’s a difference. You may simply have to experiment with your own pans and cooktop to find what works. Cooktops generally don’t give a temperature readout like ovens do.


----------



## BazookaJoe

See post:

Carbon Steel Pans...My Exploration Is Over

I didn't measure the temperature of the carbon steel pans and wok I've seasoned, but it takes some serious heat to do it properly, and still takes quite some time for really big pans. If I had to guess, I think the temp was at least 700-800 F.


----------



## Mr.Wizard

If anyone else wants one of the 10" GSI GuideCast pans REI.com has them on clearance for $17.93.









GSI Outdoors Frying Pans | REI Co-op


Shop for GSI Outdoors Frying Pans at REI - FREE SHIPPING With $50 minimum purchase. Curbside Pickup Available NOW! 100% Satisfaction Guarantee




www.rei.com


----------



## sumis

yes. hot pan. fat. success. 

but: scrambled egg is cooked on very low heat and constantly stirred, for quite a long time! anything else might be great, but not scrambled eggs 

.


----------



## M1k3

sumis said:


> yes. hot pan. fat. success.
> 
> but: scrambled egg is cooked on very low heat and constantly stirred, for quite a long time! anything else might be great, but not scrambled eggs
> 
> .


Stir faster. Plate faster.

This is the way.


----------



## madmotts

M1k3 said:


> Stir faster. Plate faster.
> 
> This is the way.


This is the way.


----------



## OldSaw

Mr.Wizard said:


> If anyone else wants one of the 10" GSI GuideCast pans REI.com has them on clearance for $17.93.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GSI Outdoors Frying Pans | REI Co-op
> 
> 
> Shop for GSI Outdoors Frying Pans at REI - FREE SHIPPING With $50 minimum purchase. Curbside Pickup Available NOW! 100% Satisfaction Guarantee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rei.com


Where is it made? The link just says “ imported” which is usually code, these days, for made in China.


----------



## sumis

M1k3 said:


> Stir faster. Plate faster.
> 
> This is the way.



but if i don't get payed for cooking, should i worry 'bout hurry?
well, i do when i'm hungry, and hungover (which is most of the time), but that's not really beneficial for the result, at least not in my humble case.

but more importantly: scrambled eggs is not a frying pan dis . you don't 'pan fry' scrambled eggs. you let the mixture coagulate in an appropriate vessel. if you hear a 'frying' sound from the eggs/vessel, you're making something else than scrambled eggs! 

and again:

1) well seasoned pan carbon steel pan ≠ a pan with a uniform dark glassy color. can be, but the color you're chasing by doing x y z is not the same as performance.

2) a most excellent way to seasoning your de buyer (or equivalent) is to use it.

.


----------



## daveb

This guy pans.

If you need to churn and burn then aluminum w oil is the way. "Normal" scrambled is 6 ctn of liquid eggs and a hot rondo.

(I know I spelled it in kitchen and not the proper French)


----------



## Mr.Wizard

OldSaw said:


> Where is it made? The link just says “ imported” which is usually code, these days, for made in China.



I'll tell you when I receive it. I couldn't see a better option. Lehman's is from China.


----------



## Mr.Wizard

@OldSaw It is made in China.


----------



## stringer

daveb said:


> This guy pans.
> 
> If you need to churn and burn then aluminum w oil is the way. "Normal" scrambled is 6 ctn of liquid eggs and a hot rondo.
> 
> (I know I spelled it in kitchen and not the proper French)



If you really need to churn and burn then you're going to need 10 gallons of liquid eggs and a hot 40 gallon stainless steel tilt braiser or steam jacketed kettle.


----------



## daveb

He, he. I remember doing them in a tilt skillet. Hated cleaning that thing.

Now I feed 100 at a time. My "cooks" like to do them in a steamer. Yuck. Rondo rocks.


----------



## stringer

sumis said:


> and again:
> 
> 1) well seasoned pan carbon steel pan ≠ a pan with a uniform dark glassy color. can be, but the color you're chasing by doing x y z is not the same as performance.
> 
> 2) a most excellent way to seasoning your de buyer (or equivalent) is to use it.
> 
> .



This is true. Seasoning should be very thin on carbon steel and cast iron. If it's flaking it's way too thick.

Here's mine, you can see it's not uniform and there's some bare steel peeking through here and there but I scrub it very clean after each time I use it with salt and a wooden spoon. Whatever comes off comes off. Then I reseason it a little the next time I heat it up. Very nonstick and no burnt flakes in my food.


----------



## coxhaus

stringer said:


> This is true. Seasoning should be very thin on carbon steel and cast iron. If it's flaking it's way too thick.
> 
> Here's mine, you can see it's not uniform and there's some bare steel peeking through here and there but I scrub it very clean after each time I use it with salt and a wooden spoon. Whatever comes off comes off. Then I reseason it a little the next time I heat it up. Very nonstick and no burnt flakes in my food.
> 
> View attachment 170412



I have a chain mail that I use for cleaning carbon steel. It seems to work well for me. It gets the carbon off that built up in the past.


----------



## OldSaw

M1k3 said:


> Stir faster. Plate faster.
> 
> This is the way.


Made two batches of three eggs each this morning.




Solidteknics pan. Preheated for a good five minutes before adding butter. These are mine, which I like a little more well done than my wife’s.


----------



## PNWanderlust

stringer said:


> This is true. Seasoning should be very thin on carbon steel and cast iron. If it's flaking it's way too thick.
> 
> Here's mine, you can see it's not uniform and there's some bare steel peeking through here and there but I scrub it very clean after each time I use it with salt and a wooden spoon. Whatever comes off comes off. Then I reseason it a little the next time I heat it up. Very nonstick and no burnt flakes in my food.
> 
> View attachment 170412



This is very similar to what by de buyer looks like, and its definitely non-stick enough to cook eggs with a splash of oil/butter/bacon fat/whatever.
It's get more color eventually through years of use.


----------



## madmotts

OldSaw said:


> >Solidteknics pan.


Power of persuasion. I hit the amzn button on the 10”. Curious to see how it compares to my Field Skillet


----------



## Rangen

daveb said:


> If you need to churn and burn then aluminum w oil is the way. "Normal" scrambled is 6 ctn of liquid eggs and a hot rondo.



These mass scrambled egg descriptions are horrifying. I think of scrambled eggs as like a custard gently separated into curds. Cast iron heated to just the right temperature, eggs, no added liquid, plenty of butter, a fork, and a general lazy, slow attitude are the way.

I never order scrambled eggs at a restaurant. OK, except for scrambled eggs with shrimp at Cantonese places.


----------



## BillHanna

I used to run a midnight buffet at a regional diner chain. You. Would. Be. Scarred. at what drunks want at 2am.


----------



## Rangen

BillHanna said:


> I used to run a midnight buffet at a regional diner chain. You. Would. Be. Scarred. at what drunks want at 2am.



Maybe I would. But I've eaten at White Castle and Taco Bell (exactly once each). So I can't help feeling that I've seen the abyss.


----------



## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> I used to run a midnight buffet at a regional diner chain. You. Would. Be. Scarred. at what drunks want at 2am.


Do tell!


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## BillHanna

“Divine Eggs”, named by a guest: buffet eggs with scraps of *waves hand around*

med-med rare chix (ordered by a regular)

Something got freezer burnt? Ehh. Cover it in cheese sauce.

they’d eat anything that was fried, caramelized, or cheesed.


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## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> “Divine Eggs”, named by a guest: buffet eggs with scraps of *waves hand around*
> 
> med-med rare chix (ordered by a regular)
> 
> Something got freezer burnt? Ehh. Cover it in cheese sauce.
> 
> they’d eat anything that was fried, caramelized, or cheesed.


I miss and don't miss those customers.

Like being told the best steak someone ever had was nuked. Yeah, weird **** happens when there's a UFC fight on, place is packed and there's only 2 guys in the back cooking, prep and doing dishes.


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## BillHanna

At the hospital I work at, people complain about being short handed. Sweet summer children.


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## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> At the hospital I work at, people complain about being short handed. Sweet summer children.


Is one hand shorter than the other? Otherwise


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## mengwong

Pisau said:


> Only pour fat into a carbon or cast iron pan after it heats up, it'll just work regardless of the seasoning.



So, today, I had a few hunks of haggis sizzling away in the wok, and I opened the fridge and some cherry tomatoes presented themselves, so I cut them in half with my BESS 160 gyuto (upping it in the process probably past 240) and added them. After plating I was thrilled to discover I had managed to “strip the seasoning” – exactly where the nightshades were, the black had gone to silver:






“Well, now, I wonder: how much damage have we actually done here?”

Because the surface still felt smooth.

And then I remembered: “seasoning encompasses two steps: polymerization and carbonization.”

I learned that from this thread, thank you @MarcelNL.



MarcelNL said:


> Science of Cast Iron Cooking
> 
> 
> Cooking with Cast Iron Skillets
> 
> 
> 
> www.scienceofcooking.com



“Have I really ruined the polymer layer, or have I just decarburized the seasoning?”

Only one way to find out!





Your browser is not able to display this video.





Conclusion: maybe the whole seasoning thing is overrated, and you really just need to preheat, get the oil hot, and let the food float up as little Leidenfrosty hovercrafts. I mean, if it works for stainless, then … it’ll work on carbon, seasoned or not!


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## sumis

well, i'd at least say that the most important aspect of seasoning carbon steel is not about achieving a certain even colour.

.


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## ian

So, what’s the point of getting the pan hot before adding oil? I assume that the point is not to let the oil sit at a high temp for too long, lest it degrade, so you heat first, then oil just before you’re ready to add food. But above, someone was talking about it like preheating the pan dry was helpful in making it nonstick when you add oil and food, and that you should practice oil return before adding new food. Is that because degraded oil is stickier? Or is there something about a temperature differential that’s helpful? Seems like the oil’s gonna get up to pan temp pretty quick.


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## boomchakabowwow

mengwong said:


> So, today, I had a few hunks of haggis sizzling away in the wok, and I opened the fridge and some cherry tomatoes presented themselves, so I cut them in half with my BESS 160 gyuto (upping it in the process probably past 240) and added them. After plating I was thrilled to discover I had managed to “strip the seasoning” – exactly where the nightshades were, the black had gone to silver:
> 
> View attachment 204729
> 
> 
> “Well, now, I wonder: how much damage have we actually done here?”
> 
> Because the surface still felt smooth.
> 
> And then I remembered: “seasoning encompasses two steps: polymerization and carbonization.”
> 
> I learned that from this thread, thank you @MarcelNL.
> 
> 
> 
> “Have I really ruined the polymer layer, or have I just decarburized the seasoning?”
> 
> Only one way to find out!
> 
> View attachment 204730
> 
> 
> Conclusion: maybe the whole seasoning thing is overrated, and you really just need to preheat, get the oil hot, and let the food float up as little Leidenfrosty hovercrafts. I mean, if it works for stainless, then … it’ll work on carbon, seasoned or not!


awesome. 

i feel starting with the cleanest vessel is the real secret to sucess. like if i cook a bunch of eggs succesfully..i am all feeling good about myself when someone says, "can i have another egg?"..i break out in a cold sweat because that next egg is DOOMED.


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## coxhaus

Here is my Matfer Bourgeat pan I bought when this thread started. It is seasoned about as good as I can get it. The chain mail I have keeps the carbon from getting thick and flaking. I have no flaking in my food. I am playing with other stuff now, so I am not using it a lot right now.


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## bbrooks008

ian said:


> So, what’s the point of getting the pan hot before adding oil? I assume that the point is not to let the oil sit at a high temp for too long, lest it degrade, so you heat first, then oil just before you’re ready to add food. But above, someone was talking about it like preheating the pan dry was helpful in making it nonstick when you add oil and food, and that you should practice oil return before adding new food. Is that because degraded oil is stickier? Or is there something about a temperature differential that’s helpful? Seems like the oil’s gonna get up to pan temp pretty quick.


Oh it's a night-and-day difference - if you don't get it hot before adding the grease it will still stick like crazy. Not sure why it matters, but it definitely does in my experience.


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## esoo

I just saw this headline recently - haven't had a chance to read it over:








Use the Leidenfrost effect to make your stainless steel pan non-stick


You can turn your stainless steel pan into a non-stick one in minutes. You'll need heat, a drop of water, and some good ol' science.




www.popsci.com


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## boomchakabowwow

coxhaus said:


> Here is my Matfer Bourgeat pan I bought when this thread started. It is seasoned about as good as I can get it. The chain mail I have keeps the carbon from getting thick and flaking. I have no flaking in my food. I am playing with other stuff now, so I am not using it a lot right now.
> 
> View attachment 204745


carbon copy of my pan. hahah..pun!! a freaking pun!!


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## Michi

esoo said:


> I just saw this headline recently - haven't had a chance to read it over:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Use the Leidenfrost effect to make your stainless steel pan non-stick
> 
> 
> You can turn your stainless steel pan into a non-stick one in minutes. You'll need heat, a drop of water, and some good ol' science.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.popsci.com


Starting with a properly pre-heated stainless steel pan definitely reduces sticking. Meat will still stick itself to the surface but, if you just leave it alone for two or three minutes, it will end up coming loose by itself (or nearly so).


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## sansho

lol. 
even though you can use the leidenfrost effect with a drop of water to roughly gauge the pan's temp, it's not the lidenfrost effect that reduces sticking. that makes no sense.


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## Michi

What reduces sticking is a hot-enough surface. If the pan is too cold, the meat sort of bonds itself to the surface and, eventually, you have to tear it loose, often with bits of meat remaining on the surface. If the pan is hot enough to begin with, that doesn't happen.


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## DavidScubadiver

There is nothing wrong with adding fat to a pan for cooking. Whether it’s a spritz of avocado oil, a dab of bitter, a glob of ghee. No more is needed to keep eggs and crepes from sticking to your preheated stainless or carbon pan. 

Nonstick pans suck because you use them beyond their useful life and wind up with a ****** pan that probably poisons you. Maybe it isn’t even waiting until it is ****** before it does so. 

What I’m not sure about, frankly, is why mear sticks but crepes don’t. I like that it does (because I like the fond) but not sure why the pan grabs one and not the other.


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## ian

sansho said:


> lol.
> even though you can use the leidenfrost effect with a drop of water to roughly gauge the pan's temp, it's not the lidenfrost effect that reduces sticking. that makes no sense.



Leidenfrost means that there’s an insulating vapor layer that keeps the water from boiling rapidly, no? Maybe they’re focusing just on the existence of a vapor layer. At least theoretically, I can maybe imagine there being a vapor layer underneath some onions I’m sauteeing, coming from the evaporating water content, and I can imagine it contributing to the onions sliding. Not that onions stick much anyway…. Although when you’re sauteeing something so moisture laden, the pan often gets pretty wet pretty quick, so probably you don’t have the same heat differential that you do when you watch a bead of water skate, so probably there’s no vapor layer?


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## mengwong

Agreed … I'm thinking of the giant domes of steam that sometimes form under eggs … and of the rapid escape of water vapour from potatoes in the deep fryer … that phenomenon at a smaller scale could well lift the food from the pan, so long as it's hot enough to sizzle. That's the other benefit of the jet engines under commercial woks … it's not about the seasoning, it's about the heat!


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## sansho

ian said:


> Leidenfrost means that there’s an insulating vapor layer that keeps the water from boiling rapidly, no? Maybe they’re focusing just on the existence of a vapor layer. At least theoretically, I can maybe imagine there being a vapor layer underneath some onions I’m sauteeing, coming from the evaporating water content, and I can imagine it contributing to the onions sliding. Not that onions stick much anyway…. Although when you’re sauteeing something so moisture laden, the pan often gets pretty wet pretty quick, so probably you don’t have the same heat differential that you do when you watch a bead of water skate, so probably there’s no vapor layer?



yes, but the article seems to focus on searing meat. it does have some interesting theories about other contributions to the meat-sticks-less-if-you-start-with-hot-pan-effect (but really, it's more like meat _releases_ better after a bit of cooking if you start with hot pan). it talks about metal surface pore size and protein interaction with iron... idk if that stuff is bs though.

but it also claims that the leidenfrost effect is responsible for this. i'm not buying it. the effect is a marked reduction in heat transfer by contact with vapor and not the dense phase. even if you start with room temp (and not frozen) food, i don't think the pan temp stays above the leidenfrost point locally. also, a piece of meat is heavy, and that helps ensure good contact. and sometimes, you even press it into the surface with a spatula for even better sticking (better heat transfer).

i'm not sure exactly what's going on, but i think good formation of dry, maillard-y crust is a key part of it. maybe it sticks better to the meat above than to the pan below. i wonder if there's a paper about it somewhere.


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## ian

sansho said:


> i don't think the pan temp stays above the leidenfrost point locally.



Yea, that seems likely in these situations.


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## mengwong

Update…


mengwong said:


> I had managed to “strip the seasoning” – exactly where the nightshades were, the black had gone to silver:


After a salt scrub and some use by others I discovered the wok was now rusty! How exciting!




I boiled water in the wok for about two minutes hoping to convert Fe2O3 -> Fe3O4, then re-seasoned on the stove with two coats of camellia oil, and we are back in action after about 10 minutes of work.





The first paper towel used as oil applicator browned and blackened, but after a rinse the second paper towel stayed white.


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## lane

This is the reason behind some of this:









The Maillard Reaction - Modernist Cuisine


One of the most important flavor-producing reactions in cooking is the Maillard reaction. It is sometimes called the “browning reaction” in discussions of cooking, but that description is incomplete at best. Cooked meats, seafood, and other protein-laden foods that undergo the Maillard reaction...




modernistcuisine.com





And this also addresses some other reasons for doing it as well.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/food/2021/03/08/preheating-skillets-cast-iron-nonstick/


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