# Cheapo monosteels



## Danzo (Feb 11, 2017)

My co-worker wants to get himself a carbon monosteel blade. Honyaki stuff being out of his price range, he's choosing between these three:
Misono dragon
Masamoto HC
Sakai kikumori swedenkou 
He's asking me the difference between the them, I don't have a good answer for him. Help!


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## panda (Feb 11, 2017)

misono, thin, narrow, needs some convexing to be at its best
masamoto beefy, tall, better steel but needs more work to cut better
there is also masahiro virgin carbon which has a nice profile and good steel but the grind is completely righty biased, it's too asymmetric even for my tastes. i like 80/20, this is 90/10


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## khashy (Feb 11, 2017)

Have you considered Sakai Takayuki? I have the 210mm and it is really nice for how much is costs:

http://www.knivesandstones.com/aoniko-blue-2-carbon-western/


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 11, 2017)

I am a big fan of the Misono Dragon myself. This knife is such a good performer for a decent price. And it has good reviews too.

I'd be interested in the Masahiro too if I was searching a gyuto in this price range.


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## Benuser (Feb 11, 2017)

He may consider the Fujiwara FKH as well. My most recent one -- gyuto 270 -- had an excellent F&F, and even an acceptable factory edge, which I can't said about the Misonos -- weak and overly convexed by factory buffering. Steel problem with sulphur seems to have been solved. Still not as refined as the Misono, though.


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## Benuser (Feb 11, 2017)

The Masahiro is a bit harder than both the Fujiwara FKH and the Misono Swedish. Masamoto still has to invent QC with their yo-blades.


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## panda (Feb 11, 2017)

i will admit, misono is my most used knife even though it's the cheapest and least performer i have. it does one thing better than all my other knives though, and that is break down whole parmesan wheels. it isn't whimpy like a laser, but it also wont wedge like thicker knives. i have done some work on the stones a bit, aggressively thinned the tip, and also added convexity about 3/4" up from the edge along the entire blade.

really though, it should come down to profile preference, all 3 that i mentioned are vastly different.
miso pointy, moto lowest nose, hiro biggest flat spot

miso easiest to sharpen but doesnt hold it well. moto hardest to sharpen but holds it well, hiro in between the two


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## Danzo (Feb 11, 2017)

So maybe the masahiro is the best choice considering all the options. I don't think he wil take the time to thin or work on the knife in anyway, I'll put a new edge on it for him. But other than that which one will perform the best without any work?


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## Danzo (Feb 11, 2017)

http://www.knivesandstones.com/sakai-takayuki-aoniko-blue-2-carbon-steel-gyuto-chefs-210mm-8-25/

What about this Sakai Takayuki? How come certain steels are considered honyaki and others are just "monosteel"?


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## khashy (Feb 11, 2017)

Danzo said:


> http://www.knivesandstones.com/sakai-takayuki-aoniko-blue-2-carbon-steel-gyuto-chefs-210mm-8-25/
> 
> What about this Sakai Takayuki? How come certain steels are considered honyaki and others are just "monosteel"?



That's the one I have. I have not tried any of the others you have mentioned so I can't do a comparison for you. It is a thin blade and mine has very good f&f. Decent ootb edge and nimble. 

Btw honyaki is about the heat treat rather than simply being monosteel


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## GRoc (Feb 11, 2017)

My understanding is that Hoyaki refers to deferentially hardened blade. The top third of the blade (spine) is covered with a thick layer of clay mud that acts as a heat-sink during heat treatment.
If all done correctly, the blade has high hardness (great edge retention) over the cutting edge, while retains some elasticity on the spine (no fractures due to elastic movement/cushion of the spine).
Mizu honyakis are quenched in water (immense stress on a 1800 degree hot steel) that can cause high rates of failure. That's one of the reasons honyaki blades are expensive.
Other types of honyakis can be quenched in oil or saturated salt solutions.

Most, if not all honyaki blades are mirror polished to reveal the high contrast/hamon lines between the hard edge and the softer spine. That also adds work-hours and cost of abrasives/polishing compounds yielding to higher prices.

If looking for monosteel lasers, there are still a few Sakai Yuzuke available on ebay, new condition, from a trusted vendor, with quick shipping (270mm for around $280 with express EMS shipping from Osaka).


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## Danzo (Feb 11, 2017)

Is that Sakai with hitachi blue gonna be noticeably better than Swedish steels? Or is it a matter or preference? I have an old Swedish carbon no name I got from my uncle, love that thing, but I don't know anything about it besides that fact.


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## spoiledbroth (Feb 11, 2017)

they just grow up so darned fast... *wipes tear from eye*


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## Sleep (Feb 11, 2017)

+1 for Masahiro. Love mine. It's a great work knife. Great price, profile, and steel. Not flashy at all.


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## khashy (Feb 11, 2017)

Hard to tell really given we don't know exactly what the Swedish steel is that you have. blue#2 though won't disappoint you(the steel itself I mean). I would trust that the steel and the heat treat will be good and focus on profile, f&f, aesthetics and price for what you are after. 

As I mentioned, the Sakai Takayuki is a very thin knife(read laser like) and even for a Yo handle (which in my opinion is really nice) is light and nimble. 

Given how thin it is, there is a tiny bit of flex to the blade, but nothing you would ever notice in normal use.


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## Benuser (Feb 11, 2017)

Today's Swedish carbons are loved for the absence of "impurities", in the old times they were loved for the extra bite. Best makers in England, Germany and France used Swedish ore because of it.


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## pkjames (Feb 11, 2017)

Danzo said:


> http://www.knivesandstones.com/sakai-takayuki-aoniko-blue-2-carbon-steel-gyuto-chefs-210mm-8-25/
> What about this Sakai Takayuki? How come certain steels are considered honyaki and others are just "monosteel"?



many Japanese makers market their monosteel as "honyaki". VG10 Honyaki, Ginsan Honyaki, etc. I try to describe them only as Monosteel.


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## labor of love (Feb 11, 2017)

Masahiro even makes an extra tall 240mm gyuto. Closest thing I've ever seen to a 240mm santoku. Only for righties though.


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 12, 2017)

Where to get these Masahiro knives?


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## Benuser (Feb 12, 2017)

JCK carries them without advertising, askm Mr Iwahara, [email protected]
IIRC he charges $114 + $7 for the 240mm gyuto, Virgin Carbon


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## merlijny2k (Feb 12, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Masahiro even makes an extra tall 240mm gyuto. Closest thing I've ever seen to a 240mm santoku. Only for righties though.



Rosselli has a 240 santoku


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 12, 2017)

@merlijny2k 240mm blade length or thickness behind the edge?


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## Benuser (Mar 1, 2017)

Benuser said:


> JCK carries them without advertising, askm Mr Iwahara, [email protected]
> IIRC he charges $114 + $7 for the 240mm gyuto, Virgin Carbon


Actual price is $135 + $7, I'm afraid.


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## jonnachang (Mar 1, 2017)

Knife Merchant carries the Masahiro 240 Santoku


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## labor of love (Mar 1, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Actual price is $135 + $7, I'm afraid.



"Without advertising?"...do you mean they're just not on the site?


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## labor of love (Mar 1, 2017)

I wonder how much a lefty masahiro is, I may have to inquire.


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## Benuser (Mar 2, 2017)

labor of love said:


> "Without advertising?"...do you mean they're just not on the site?


Indeed.


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## Ruso (Mar 2, 2017)

Any idea what steel is used for VC series? Virgin Carbon=white #1?


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## Benuser (Mar 2, 2017)

Is said to be Takefu's V2C, FWIW.


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## Ruso (Mar 2, 2017)

I like V2. V2C it says to be a cleaner (purer) V2. I guess it's what Hitachi White #1 to #2 is.
I kinda want to try it now. Always wanted carbon monosteel and at fraction of KS cost.


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## labor of love (Mar 2, 2017)

Masahiro profile looks very sweet. Anyone know asymmetrical they are?


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## Benuser (Mar 2, 2017)

Very asymmetric with the few I've sharpened. Hope to tell you more when I get one in use one of these days.


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## pavel (Mar 3, 2017)

Pavel
Out of curiosity ran "masamoto 13012 rakuten" on the internet. Got 4 or 5 replies from Rakuten shops. The low quote was from onr named MANMARU at $72.77.

Pavel


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## labor of love (Mar 3, 2017)

Sleep said:


> +1 for Masahiro. Love mine. It's a great work knife. Great price, profile, and steel. Not flashy at all.



It's interesting that the rivets in this masa are normal but the ones at knife merchant are brass(?)

https://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=5874


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## supersayan3 (Mar 3, 2017)

Brass rivets, extra stamp, everything for you, the lefties...

Left side is hollow


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## supersayan3 (Mar 3, 2017)

Left side is hollow on the right hand one, sorry for any confusion


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## Bromo33333 (Mar 3, 2017)

I don't have a great deal of experience with the breadth of knives that most here do, but I have had a good experience in the last few weeks with my Yaxell Dragon.

It's an American steel that has a HRC of about 63 or so, monosteel, takes a sharp edge, and is supposed to be tough and durable. It's balance and lightness reminds me of my Shuns more than my Wusthofs aor Zwilling knives. Shape is closer to the German ideals (the 8" like a fat belly German style, the 10" is closer to a Gyuto or French knife - it's lighter than my 8" Zwilling Pro-S Chef)

You can find the 8" from about $70-120 depending where you look. It has a belly and is an excellent rocker. It's OK for chopping but excels as a rocker.
The 10" one can be had from $90-140 depending upon who is selling it, and it has a long flat part to the blade so both rocks and chops and slices well - it may be my favorite knife of the two.

It seems to combine American, German and Japanese sensibilities in one knife so it's not a Gyuto, nor is it really a "German" knife. But if someone preps like a Westerner, and wants to learn other prep techniques, the 10" might be a great choice.

Just something to consider. Since the Chef Knives can be had fairly inexpensively right now -


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## Benuser (Mar 3, 2017)

https://www.knifemerchant.com/images/products/DRGN-CHEF-1000.jpg

Very high tip, typical of modern Germans.


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## Bromo33333 (Mar 3, 2017)

Benuser said:


> https://www.knifemerchant.com/images/products/DRGN-CHEF-1000.jpg
> 
> Very high tip, typical of modern Germans.



Go figure. Slices a lot like my Shun Gyuto-like Kiritsuke. As I said, I don't have the breadth of experience like most here.


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## Benuser (Mar 4, 2017)

supersayan3 said:


> Left side is hollow on the right hand one, sorry for any confusion



Really, hollow, concave, not simply flat? Are you sure?


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## panda (Mar 4, 2017)

ive tried masahiro carbon and it is way too asymmetric even for me (i like highly asymmetric) because it is 95/5, completely flat on the left face, i didnt notice any concavity.


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## Benuser (Mar 4, 2017)

Thanks, Panda. Was my impression as well. Will soon report about my own findings.


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## supersayan3 (Mar 4, 2017)

Hi Benuser!

Absolutely. 
I drag the left side flat on the stones every time in a sharpening session, and only the spine and the edge touch, you see the marks.
Exactly the same grind, has the stainless 148... line, but thinner and the gyuto 21cm taller than the carbon.

My favourite grind on knives, as much as I have experienced so far.
Wish I had more expensive blades with this grind.
And the steel... amazing


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## labor of love (Mar 4, 2017)

supersayan3 said:


> Hi Benuser!
> 
> Absolutely.
> I drag the left side flat on the stones every time in a sharpening session, and only the spine and the edge touch, you see the marks.
> ...


Are you referring to the 240mm extra tall gyuto/santoku? Masahiro?


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## Benuser (Mar 4, 2017)

supersayan3 said:


> Hi Benuser!
> 
> Absolutely.
> I drag the left side flat on the stones every time in a sharpening session, and only the spine and the edge touch, you see the marks.
> ...



Thanks!


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## supersayan3 (Mar 4, 2017)

&#925;&#959;, I don't have any santoku. The 21-24gyutos, 131... + 148... Lines.
The flexible 20 cm sujihiki (which is flexible, but only half compared to Victorinox, but better profile), from 149... line,
Is flat, not hollow, but this must be applying only to 2-3 knives of just that line to be flat.

I will check, first chance the 30cm Carbon sujihiki from the 131.. Line and update


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## supersayan3 (Mar 4, 2017)

panda said:


> ive tried masahiro carbon and it is way too asymmetric even for me (i like highly asymmetric) because it is 95/5, completely flat on the left face, i didnt notice any concavity.



Maybe they changed it?
Try dragging flat the left side on a stone


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## Danzo (Mar 4, 2017)

That profile on the yaxell looks hard to use. (Euro)

I'm gonna get my hands on this masahiro soon too I think. I'll report


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## mattador (Apr 9, 2018)

Resurrection bump..... buuut any news on that masahiro? I'm looking into cheapish monosteel carbons for fun and am deciding on masahiro or sakai kikumori


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## Lpn562 (Apr 9, 2018)

+1 on the Masahiro!


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## Danzo (Apr 9, 2018)

Masahiro is great. Comparing it to a misono(210). Better edge retention. Better distal taper, decent for a stamped knife. Less reactive steel. One thing I didnt like was the original grind, steered like crazy but after a couple sharpenings it levels out. F&F is rough like the rest of the knives in this category but thats an easy fix. 

Masahiro is the spalted maple one with the broken tip




Excuse the tape


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## mattador (Apr 9, 2018)

Danzo said:


> Masahiro is great. Comparing it to a misono(210). Better edge retention. Better distal taper, decent for a stamped knife. Less reactive steel. One thing I didnt like was the original grind, steered like crazy but after a couple sharpenings it levels out. F&F is rough like the rest of the knives in this category but thats an easy fix.
> 
> Masahiro is the spalted maple one with the broken tip
> 
> ...



Right on, thanks for the update! I dont mind doing some work so Ill be looking forward to tweaking the grind. This pretty much seals the deal for me and Ill be grabbing some soon!


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## panda (Apr 9, 2018)

danzo what are all the knives in that pic?

as far as western monos, i think misono moly is best bang/buck, sweet profile and pretty thin grind. i prefer yoshihiro ginsan-ko only because of the steel and it's more beefy (more comfortable using as a don't give af knife).


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## Xenif (Apr 10, 2018)

I find a lot of love for Misono for both stainless and Carbon around here, much less for Masahiro. Is it mainly the grind, the steel, f&f?


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## labor of love (Apr 10, 2018)

Xenif said:


> I find a lot of love for Misono for both stainless and Carbon around here, much less for Masahiro. Is it mainly the grind, the steel, f&f?



Honestly I think just a lot more people have used misono, not as many have tried masahiro.


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## daddy yo yo (Apr 10, 2018)

If i were in the market for an affordable monosteel knife it would be either Misono Dragon, Suien VC (from JKI), or that Masahiro. I own the Dragon and love it. I still want to try the other 2...


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## Benuser (Apr 10, 2018)

Xenif said:


> I find a lot of love for Misono for both stainless and Carbon around here, much less for Masahiro. Is it mainly the grind, the steel, f&f?



The Misonos are far better known than the Masahiros, and have a Fit& Finish that's exceptional at this price level.
Steel, balance, profile are very different.
Use the Google search function.
Site:kitchenknifeforums.com Misono AND Masahiro


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## Jovidah (Apr 10, 2018)

Yeah availability is a big reason. Misonos can be bought almost everywhere, even in shops that only dabble in J-knives to a limited extent. The Masahiros on the other hand only have a few retailers in the west. And in the rare case a shop caries Masahiro that's still no guarantee they'll carry the carbon lines.
Also, whether you like that dragon or not, it probably helped Misono get sales and recognition in the west. I think for a long time it was the standard gateway knife.


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## Danzo (Apr 10, 2018)

Left to right starting with partially shown: Sakai ichimonji cleaver, Toyama(taped up), masashi kobo, masahiro, heavily thinned KU Tanaka, and the handle of mazaki (baseball bat)


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## Danzo (Apr 10, 2018)

And forgive me if I wasnt crystal clear in my last post, I was comparing a 240 masahiro to a 210 misono. Thats was also probably the last 210 Ill ever buy. At that point I had officially graduated, but had just came up on a used one at a price I couldnt ignore, and needed a guinea pig for rehandleing


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## chinacats (Apr 10, 2018)

Danzo said:


> Left to right starting with partially shown: Sakai ichimonji cleaver, Toyama(taped up), masashi kobo, masahiro, heavily thinned KU Tanaka, and the handle of mazaki (baseball bat)



That Tanaka is looking good, how's performance after all that thinning?


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## Danzo (Apr 10, 2018)

Its a lot better than where it was, but still needs work. It went unused after a few other knives rolled in. That tip was just useless. Ill post some pictures again after I keep thinning in a distal taper


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## minibatataman (Apr 13, 2018)

Not to jack the thread but how do you guys think the carbonext compares to the masahiro and misono?


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## Jovidah (Apr 13, 2018)

Well... for one... the CN is semi-stainless while the others are full carbon.


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## Benuser (Apr 13, 2018)

Why would one prefer a carbonext over a carbon blade?


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## HRC_64 (Apr 13, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Why would one prefer a carbonext over a carbon blade?



There was a time when semi-stainless was a trendy thing (TKC and Kono HD, A-type, etc)


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## Jovidah (Apr 13, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Why would one prefer a carbonext over a carbon blade?



-No reactivity on any kind of food, ever
-No need to wipe the blade
-You can leave it sitting dirty for a while without issues
-Girlfriend proof if you leave it sitting for a few hours
-Still sharpens like carbon

Basically it has all the advantages of carbon when it comes to sharpening, while offering all the lazy-forgivingness of stainless (to some extent). That makes it great for people who are just starting out, great for people who don't want to bother too much with keeping the knife clean straight away, and most of all... it's pretty damn girlfriend-proof. The only thing you're really missing out on is a good-looking patina. But when it comes to pure functionality it takes the cake IMO. I honestly don't understand why semi-stainless knives aren't more popular; it's the best of both worlds.


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## Benuser (Apr 13, 2018)

As I understand from Carbonext users, leaving the edge dirty will dull it, just as with carbons, to a lesser degree, though. But much more likely to dull with acidic food than stainless.
IMHO no edge -- stainless or not -- should be left dirty.


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## Jovidah (Apr 13, 2018)

This Carbonext user never had any issues.  Admittedly I do try to keep it clean anyway, but it's nice to not have to obsess over it. It's a nice mid-way compromise.
And the fact that things shouldn't be left dirty, doesn't mean it won't happen. Especially when a significant other often shares my kitchen...


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## labor of love (Apr 13, 2018)

Carbonext was just a gateway knife for people who werent sure if they were ready for carbon &#128512;


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## Jovidah (Apr 13, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Carbonext was just a gateway knife for people who werent sure they were ready for carbon &#128512;



Haha that was actually part of the equation for my first Carbonext as well. It's like a carbon-light you can use for potty training! But honestly I really like them. They don't look like much but they're extremely practical.


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## minibatataman (Apr 14, 2018)

Yes I know it's semi stainless 
I mean from a purely performance angle, how does it compare ?


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## panda (Apr 14, 2018)

One I had was junk


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## Jovidah (Apr 14, 2018)

My Carbonext's were decent and didn't look very dissimilar from the Misono's (in grind and profile); that's also what Koki says; at the most Misono has slightly better f&f. The Masahiro is a bit more asymmetrical (you can use google to find some more comparisons between Masahiros and Misonos on this forum) and at least in the 210 slightly taller than the others (both Misono and Carbonext 210s are rather lacking in blade height). Carbonext used to come without any edge (you might find some people mentioning that) but that isn't the case anymore. 

In the end all of them are cheapish 'entry-knives'. They work decent out of the box, but all of them will have some upwards room for improvement by thinning behind the edge. Throw a bit more money at it and you'll get knives that come perfectly thin behind the edge out of the box. None of these knives will be pure lasers, nor will any of them come with super fancy magic food release grinds.

The main advantage of all these 'cheaper' knives is that they are somewhat softer than the usual white & blue carbon steel knives. I haven't ever heard of anyone who chipped a Masahiro, Misono or Carbonext even when rock chopping. They're definitly better at taking a beating.

The major difference between the Carbonext and the others is that it's semi-stainless (and pretty much the only lower-priced semi-stainless knife that I know of). Whether you care about that or not depends largely upon user preference.


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## K813zra (Apr 14, 2018)

I still like my Dragon best out of all of the cheaper mono carbon options. I like the Fujiwara FKH, for a gyuto more so than other options, as a beater too. Takes a hell of a beating. Mine has slew dozens of rabbit spines and chopped the tops off of loads of drumsticks.


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