# #6 Cleaver: Gesshin Ginga vs Sugimoto and Mizuno



## ntsour (May 20, 2012)

I am after a #6 Cleaver and having read everything I could find on various forums I have narrowed it down to Gesshin Ginga, Sugimoto and Mizuno. Although I think no one would really go wrong with any of those I still can't decide.

What I am looking for? Obviously a full size chinese slicer. What I value most:
- Geometry comes first. A convex grind that goes very thin as it approaches the edge. Not too much belly. The CCK small slicer is my reference there. Something like that but in full size and a little bit more might on the top half part of the blade maybe (not so flat) .
- Then comes steel. For me it is about ease of sharpening, edge stability and edge retention. I am a home cook so I am not looking for a workhorse. Could be something more delicate. Shigefusa Kurouichi Nakiri and Takeda Guyto are my references there. Something at that level. I will favor stainless this time, provided it comes really close to carbon in these areas.
- F&F. I can live with a CCK no problem. But at this price range I won't tolerate sloppiness. Not willing to rehandle either.

So far Sugimoto seems a no brainer but it is carbon. Mizuno also fits the bill but is the more expensive of the bunch, also carbon, I have read about finishing issues with the handles and I would have to order from Japan. I will be visiting the states soon so I would rather something available online there.

Therefore, I am also tempted by the Gesshin that looks very good on paper: Stainless, consistent F&F, grind looks good on the photos, profile is ok (not too much belly, like I like it). But I have found almost nothing in terms of user experiences with it. 

So anyone can comment on the Gesshin in comparison with the above in terms of geometry, steel and edge qualities and overall usage experience? Preferably somebody who have handled all three if possible?

Thanks


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## tk59 (May 20, 2012)

ntsour said:


> ...So anyone can comment on the Gesshin in comparison with the above in terms of geometry, steel and edge qualities and overall usage experience? Preferably somebody who have handled all three if possible?...


I have not used any of these cleavers but I can vouch for the steel qualities, grind and fit and finish on the Ashi which are all excellent.


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## Crothcipt (May 20, 2012)

welcome


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## labor of love (May 20, 2012)

im in the same boat. except im debating between the ashi ginga, sugimoto and mizuno stainless. ill probably get the sugimoto. then again, i change my mind every three days or so. something else im debating is just getting a cck #6 for now just to get comfortable with the size first.


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## ntsour (May 20, 2012)

labor of love said:


> im in the same boat. except im debating between the ashi ginga, sugimoto and mizuno stainless. ill probably get the sugimoto. then again, i change my mind every three days or so. something else im debating is just getting a cck #6 for now just to get comfortable with the size first.



Do you mean there is a stainless Sugimoto?

Can you also point me to an online retailer that stocks the stainless Mizuno?

Thanks.


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## labor of love (May 20, 2012)

Oh no, I was referring to the carbon sugimoto. But there is a 190mm sugimoto stainless that is supposed to be pretty good. And I've heard good things about their steel for the price. The mizuno stainless is at japanesechefsknife.com it has a real flat profile and might be what you're looking for if you like the cck profile.


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## labor of love (May 20, 2012)

I just purchased the Gesshin Ginga cleaver. When it gets here in a few days I can take more pics or offer some thoughts on its performance if youre interested.


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## ntsour (May 23, 2012)

labor of love said:


> I just purchased the Gesshin Ginga cleaver. When it gets here in a few days I can take more pics or offer some thoughts on its performance if youre interested.



Thanks. Looking forward to hearing your impressions.


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## Andy777 (May 23, 2012)

Here is the Mizuno stainless:

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html

You'll also see the Hattori FH cleaver there, which meets your requirements as well, it doesn't get a ton of love for some reason but I personally found it quite badass. Since you like the Takeda gyuto why not just get a Takeda cleaver, it costs a pretty penny but it's thin, awesome steel, and has a good comfy handle.


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## malacara (May 23, 2012)

I have got the stainless mizuno and I can say that it´s awesome. I´ve posted some pics here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post/page5 
The handle is not that bad, a bit bulky perhaps but I like those. Mine has no evident gaps or any other problem I can think of. I sanded and oiled it a few months after I got it and now I am absolutely happy with it.

Saludos


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## labor of love (May 23, 2012)

Well I recieved the gesshin ginga cleaver today. Its pretty nice overall. F&F is excellent, good weight, pretty good profile. I didnt have much prep at work today unfortunately but I did fine dice some onions and minced a little parsley. Im happy with my purchase but Im still curious about the sugimotos...I may get one down the road. Maybe a smaller Sugimoto vegetable cleaver, these #6 cleavers really are huge! But I think the size will grow on me overtime.


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## ntsour (May 24, 2012)

Andy777 said:


> Here is the Mizuno stainless:
> 
> http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ChineseCleaver.html
> 
> You'll also see the Hattori FH cleaver there, which meets your requirements as well, it doesn't get a ton of love for some reason but I personally found it quite badass. Since you like the Takeda gyuto why not just get a Takeda cleaver, it costs a pretty penny but it's thin, awesome steel, and has a good comfy handle.



$500 for the Takeda is just too much.I'll have a look at the other too, thanks.


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## jaybett (May 24, 2012)

The Sugimoto is all about performance. It's the ideal size for a large cleaver, 220x110mm, big enough to be productive but still agile. The handle is comfortable. The spine is rounded and tapers nicely from the handle. It feels very good in hand. The Sugimoto has a strong distal taper, so the front is great for slicing, while the back can handle chopping thicker vegetables. Its an easy knife to sharpen and maintain. While the Sugimoto is a good performer, it is a bit of an ugly duckling in the fit and finish department. 

The Mizuno carbon steel, will take an hold an edge for a long time. For being such a large knife it is surprisingly light. The edge has more curve, then most cleavers. It hasn't been an issue for me, but others have mentioned that they wished the edge was flatter. The steel is hard and tough, which is good for long shifts in the kitchen, but thinning this knife isn't fun. 

The knife that sounds like it would fit your needs would be the Mizuno stainless steel. Malacara has one and compared it favorably to his CCK. 

The Kitchen Forum series have the best handles on any knife, short of a custom. The cleaver along with the rest of the line has excellent fit and finish. It is a thin knife that cuts very nicely. I figured if a person just wanted one high end clever, then the KF would be a good choice. 

I haven't used the Geshin Ginga cleaver, so I can't speak to its performance. Gesshin Ginga does custom orders. So if you are happy with your CCK, you could order a cleaver with those specs. Jon at Japanese Knife Imports, should be able to place an order. 

Jay


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## ntsour (May 24, 2012)

malacara said:


> I have got the stainless mizuno and I can say that it´s awesome. I´ve posted some pics here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-on-why-I-love-Chinese-Cleavers-re-post/page5
> The handle is not that bad, a bit bulky perhaps but I like those. Mine has no evident gaps or any other problem I can think of. I sanded and oiled it a few months after I got it and now I am absolutely happy with it.
> 
> Saludos



More choices.... This getting more difficult that I thought. I the JCK's photos the edge profile appeared to be too flat, but in your photos it looks just right.


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## labor of love (May 24, 2012)

There's no correct choice here IMO. All the cleavers in discussed here are awesome!


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## ntsour (May 24, 2012)

jaybett said:


> The Sugimoto is all about performance. It's the ideal size for a large cleaver, 220x110mm, big enough to be productive but still agile. The handle is comfortable. The spine is rounded and tapers nicely from the handle. It feels very good in hand. The Sugimoto has a strong distal taper, so the front is great for slicing, while the back can handle chopping thicker vegetables. Its an easy knife to sharpen and maintain. While the Sugimoto is a good performer, it is a bit of an ugly duckling in the fit and finish department.
> 
> The Mizuno carbon steel, will take an hold an edge for a long time. For being such a large knife it is surprisingly light. The edge has more curve, then most cleavers. It hasn't been an issue for me, but others have mentioned that they wished the edge was flatter. The steel is hard and tough, which is good for long shifts in the kitchen, but thinning this knife isn't fun.
> 
> ...



Thanks. I agree that the Mizuno stainless would be the safest bet for me right now. I have seen also Salty's good comments on the gyuto from the same series. So it should get really sharp as well. 

But I am also drawn by the rave comments about Mizuno's carbon steel. At japanesechefknives they say it is 570g. More that the Sugimoto #7. Also 3mm thick at the spine. Is it entering chopper territory? You say it is light?


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## labor of love (May 24, 2012)

Talk with koki at jck. He will get you the lightest one he has if you ask him. Ask him the weights of any knife he has and he will tell you. Ask for a flatter profile too. He's taken pics of profiles and sent them to potential customers in the past.


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## Andy777 (May 24, 2012)

My Mizuno carbon is quite thin and fairly light ~440g if I remember correctly. I don't know if the weight and grind on these can vary wildly? If so that's too bad. I hate recomending a knife only to have one delivered be greatly different from mine. I had a similar case with my Tojiro pro where mine was very thin but others have reported a thicker blade. My Mizuno carbon has slightly more curve than I prefer, but not as bad as the Suien's I've seen coming out lately. Also, FYI, I'd take Sugimoto off your short list if you want a laser, it's a good knife but not as thin as others available.


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## labor of love (May 24, 2012)

Andy777 said:


> ~ Also, FYI, I'd take Sugimoto off your short list if you want a laser, it's a good knife but not as thin as others available.


Is the sugimoto the same weight (440-460ish) as the others or is it heavier? I'm just curious how the sugimoto can be thicker at the spine yet weigh the same as a takeda or mizuno. Lighter handle or steel? Just curious.


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## Andy777 (May 25, 2012)

labor of love said:


> Is the sugimoto the same weight (440-460ish) as the others or is it heavier? I'm just curious how the sugimoto can be thicker at the spine yet weigh the same as a takeda or mizuno. Lighter handle or steel? Just curious.



Yes, mine was about 445g if I remember correctly. It's not super thick, just not a laser, it has a fat rounded spine too which is nice and it tapers to the tip, the edge has a distal taper which is also nice, it holds true to the cleaver philosophy of one knife for all, rather than a more laser type that many people on here love. I don't want to say it's a tank, just not a laser is all. As far as how it can be slightly thicker yet weigh the same, I'd have to say it's the rat tail tang and short handle when compared something with a longer full tang like a Mizuno.


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## ntsour (May 26, 2012)

Andy, Jay:

Are by any chance your Sugimotos similar to your Mizunos in terms of thickness (or hopefully thinness) at the front half of the knife? I mean because of the distal taper it has in contrast with the Mizuno? If it gets really thin it may be something of a "best of both worlds"? 

I contacted Koki at JCK. He confirmed that Mizuno VC Cleavers can vary in thickness. He'll get a thin (er) one, measure it and send photos. Helpful retailer.


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## labor of love (May 26, 2012)

You need to check out the mizuno cleaver for sale over at knife forums BST ASAP!!!


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## ntsour (May 26, 2012)

labor of love said:


> You need to check out the mizuno cleaver for sale over at knife forums BST ASAP!!!



Thanks. I had seen it. Too modified. On the direction I want, but still kind of scared.


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## jaybett (May 28, 2012)

The Mizuno is currently being worked on, so I don't have it, to compare to the Sugimoto. Even though the Mizuno is listed at 225mm, mine is over 230mm. I think Andy mentioned that his Mizuno was also longer then 225mm. 

I found it easier to dice an onion with the Sugimoto, then the Mizuno. While the distal taper may help, I think it is length of the Mizuno that makes it less agile then the Sugimoto. The Mizuno is the better slicer though. 

Jay


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