# Ripoff of Don Nguyen's designs?



## Zwiefel (Jan 12, 2016)

Looks like someone is trying to copy Don:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAXRWBSQLgQ/

Clearly not capable of his F-n-F though, I don't have much hope for the grind/heat treat either. If anyone wanted to leave a comment on instagram to this effect, I would not be personally offended. Or even if several people did....


----------



## bkultra (Jan 12, 2016)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery


----------



## James (Jan 12, 2016)

Looks like the guy has been trying different things to find his own style


----------



## panda (Jan 12, 2016)

+1 imitation flattery


----------



## Zwiefel (Jan 12, 2016)

I don't have any problem with any of those things...but the guy should own it, not delete comments about it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/_lAnktjMjG/

^^This, I respect. Also, he did a better job.


----------



## Haburn (Jan 12, 2016)

I know Joe, and he's a very nice guy but I do think his handles are too close to Nyugen's work.


----------



## Cheeks1989 (Jan 12, 2016)

Who is Joe? isn't the guys name Stephen Pustulink.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 12, 2016)

Unless someone has a patent/copyright/trademark or any other kind of protection on a design or anything like that there's not much one can do about this kind of stuff... Unfortunately!

About the Haburn vs Anderson debate: I don't think that handle style is so unique that any maker can claim it as his/her own. I've seen it on Bloodroot blades as well I think ... (Just my personal opinion!)


----------



## WillC (Jan 12, 2016)

Dons is a very unique design, his own invention of form and aesthetic. I think of course its natural to take influence in ones development and its not always as straight forward to determine influence in general but this case its respectful to the maker to quote your source, i.e. "Nyugen -esc handle" It is then an honest homage and a stage in ones development, with full credit where it is due to the original. Thats how I would feel about it, can't speak for Don.


----------



## Zwiefel (Jan 12, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Unless someone has a patent/copyright/trademark or any other kind of protection on a design or anything like that there's not much one can do about this kind of stuff... Unfortunately!
> 
> About the Haburn vs Anderson debate: I don't think that handle style is so unique that any maker can claim it as his/her own. I've seen it on Bloodroot blades as well I think ... (Just my personal opinion!)



Legally, correct. Socially? Incorrect. 



WillC said:


> Dons is a very unique design, his own invention of form and aesthetic. I think of course its natural to take influence in ones development and its not always as straight forward to determine influence in general but this case its respectful to the maker to quote your source, i.e. "Nyugen -esc handle" It is then an honest homage and a stage in ones development, with full credit where it is due to the original. Thats how I would feel about it, can't speak for Don.



Exactly my point. There's nothing wrong with learning from doing, and being inspired by the work of others...not a single person reaches any real level of achievement in any art w/o that...but you should list your sources, as they say in the academic world.


----------



## Adrian (Jan 12, 2016)

Pretty tricky this don't you think? A knife is a flat bit of pointy metal stuck into a handle. They have been around for thousands of years. In that time you would expect just about every variation of handle (and blade) shape to have been made somewhere. Go into a museum and look at the evolution of medieval blades to present day. I suspect there is very little new under this particular ray of sun.


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 12, 2016)

Personally i don't think the knife is a rip off of Don's work as opposed to just a different take on tapering a wa handle. Yes has similarities to Don but as for rip off, i think it some are seeing it that way because the want to "defend" Don's work. 

.


----------



## mikedtran (Jan 12, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Personally i don't think the knife is a rip off of Don's work as opposed to just a different take on tapering a wa handle. Yes has similarities to Don but as for rip off, i think it some are seeing it that way because the want to "defend" Don's work.



I would be inclined to believe it is a copy of Don's handle as that is a very unique tapering. Additionally, since he deleted comments on that versus have a discussion about it, would leave me further to believe it was a copy of Don's. 

Even the way he layered the Micarta is very reminiscent of Don's style. 

That being said there is no comparison as far as attention to detail and execution though. Don tapers his full tangs to pull the weight blade forward and from the video that does not look to be the case with Penmans handle. 

I agree with the general idea that borrowing design elements is ok with recognition. This also has no real negative impact on Don, actually might be giving him some additional press/reach =p


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 12, 2016)

This is the HoustonEdgeWorks guy?

Check out his price list, he's doing better than me....


http://www.houstonedgeworks.com/pricing.html


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 12, 2016)

Maybe/maybe not. My impression is that the tapering of the tang and overall shape is what makes Don's handle what it is. This knife is either a really poor copy missing out on the key aspects. Or it really is just a modification of a wa.

As for deleting comments being a sign of guilt... why should he have to leave accusations out in the public that are unfounded themselves. He doesn't need to engage with people, who in reality would not change their mind even if he did.


----------



## ecchef (Jan 13, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Personally i don't think the knife is a rip off of Don's work as opposed to just a different take on tapering a wa handle. Yes has similarities to Don but as for rip off, i think it some are seeing it that way because the want to "defend" Don's work.



I don't buy that. To begin with, it has none of the characteristics of a "wa" handle; you would have been more accurate to compare it with a Forgecraft or even an Ealy. The faceting is identical to Don's work as is the planar transition and geometry. Yeah, it's got a few (a lot) more pins and maybe there is no distal taper, but come on...it's an obvious copy.


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 13, 2016)

ecchef said:


> I don't buy that. To begin with, it has none of the characteristics of a "wa" handle; you would have been more accurate to compare it with a Forgecraft or even an Ealy. The faceting is identical to Don's work as is the planar transition and geometry. Yeah, it's got a few (a lot) more pins and maybe there is no distal taper, but come on...it's an obvious copy.



Says you. I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## ecchef (Jan 13, 2016)

Whatever...


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 13, 2016)

I don't even know why i am arguing for this guy. I don't even like his work. 

But let's agree to disagree. There are enough similarities to make it potential but there is enough differences to suggest it may just be a natural progression of his. But we will never know the truth.


----------



## Matus (Jan 13, 2016)

Since I do not know the guy in question and neither his work, I would not be all so jumpy. Check out his gallery - there is ONE knife with such a handle design - it is apparent that he offers quite different handles. And I have no idea whether it is a design ispired by someone else's work or not.

So, I am sorry, but I am not ready to throw that bag of poo just yet.

P.S. Indeed not cheap, but offers steels I have not seen from anyone else. So, actually, thanks for the link :angel2:


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 13, 2016)

I'd give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe he didn't realise that it was a unique design created by Don?
Or maybe he reached the same point independently?

The world is a big place and I wouldn't say that it was impossible that he came to that design on his own (as unlikely as that may be).

I agree that it is bad form if it is a copy and no credit was given. Hopefully if that is the case (and he sees this thread) he'll add a credit to Don.


----------



## Asteger (Jan 13, 2016)

Pricey knives. I was just thinking if this maker had made buddies here, tried to reg as a vendor, etc, first - not sure exactly what the process is - he wouldn't have met such scepticism, and scepticism which could be unfair. I also had a quick look at the site and noticed just one handle with that distinctive kind of Nguyen shape. (Maybe he got a request for this design and just took a pic?)

On the other hand, the handle in question and the general look of his knives are a bit garish. I only know a bit about Nguyen's stuff and it's distinctive but not my cup of tea, and so if I were to copy designs I wouldn't have gone for these.


----------



## mikedtran (Jan 13, 2016)

Both great points above.

Seems like two very likely scenarios that either he didn't realize it was a unique design or/and he was asked by a client to make a handle based on pictures of Don's. 

Most interesting thing this thread brings up for me is how unique Don's design is, so much so that a decent number of people instantly think of Don when they see a handle like that. 

Also makes you think, whoever came up with the first octagonal handle or the first d-handle isn't being credited now =p


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 13, 2016)

I agree. I've seen hundreds of knives where the wa-handles are not credited as being 'a la ______'. Obviously someone came up with it initially... Same for the generic western handles.

Next up may be claiming exclusivity on blade shapes/ profiles.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 13, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Also makes you think, whoever came up with the first octagonal handle or the first d-handle isn't being credited now =p



I always assumed that D handles were created by this dude and that their name and shape was an homage to their creator. irate1:

I'm not sure about Octagonal handles though. :scratchhead:


----------



## Zwiefel (Jan 13, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> I agree. I've seen hundreds of knives where the wa-handles are not credited as being 'a la ______'. Obviously someone came up with it initially... Same for the generic western handles.
> 
> Next up may be claiming exclusivity on blade shapes/ profiles.



In 100 years if Don's handles are the standard...sure, that would be analogous.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 13, 2016)

I spoke to Stephen on his Instagram page. He admitted that it was 'inspired' by Don, but then proceeded to point out one or two differences that were supposed to make it original somehow. This tells me that it was purposeful, not an accident (and come on, that's a pretty far fetched 'design' to come up with out of the blue, particularly considering his other handle shapes). In addition, a number of other people commented the same thing. Deleting those comments, to me...was the part that made it truly something I personally wouldn't appreciate. Another guy has been copying Don's handles as well. His name is Joe Edson (he's a great guy) and he mostly makes straight razors. The difference is, he fully admitted it, as well as admitting that he did it out of complete and total respect for Don's work. The posts are still public on his Instagram page...rather than being hidden to avoid notice. Similar actions, two different responses from the people who did it, and a completely different reaction from people who stood up and pointed it out.

The thing about this issue is that makers who come up with unique designs that are both beautiful and functional are rare. Even rarer are those that come up with unique designs that are exceedingly beautiful and functional. If we don't back them as a community, there's very little incentive for them to do so outside of their own will. I can tell you that as an artist/sculptor of sorts, that will is strong...but if someone were copying my art, and the community that I made it for didn't stand up for my efforts in the face of pretty blatant plagiarism...I would be more than a little saddened. 

It would be a lot different folks, if he had just modified a 'wa' handle. Don's handle isn't an octagonal/wa handle in the first place...it's not even freaking close. It's more of a skewed hexagonal/multi-tapered diamond with purposeful facets. It is/was completely unique in the kitchen knife world. Think about Bob Loveless. There's a MILLION knife makers out there copying his design. But guess what the design is called? A Loveless drop point. I think Don's design is unique enough to warrant at MINIMUM the respect of calling your copy of his work by his name in a public format. 'Here is my 240mm chef's knife with a Don Nguyen style/inspired handle'...and not just once, either. Every single time you make one. 

Doesn't seem so hard at all to me.


----------



## AllanP (Jan 13, 2016)

I don't know why he was deleting comments about it, that's the weird part

maybe he didn't want bad publicity or drama on his Instagram page


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 13, 2016)

Cris, thanks for your perspective.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 13, 2016)

Thanks for clearing that up Chris.

In that case, I agree, it was a low move. I don't see deleting negative comments as a major issue (as it is his page) but he should certainly have added a reference to Don at this point.

I was in no way defending straight up plagiarism, but I'd rather assume the best and be proven wrong (as is the case here) than assume the worst.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 13, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> Cris, thanks for your perspective.



No problem my friend .

Also, to clarify...I'm not saying you all should throw Stephen under the bus. I've known him a good while now and he's never been anything but decent to me. That said, if you feel strongly about what he did here you should let him know. Some people don't have the same understanding of boundaries as others, which is not to say they are 'rude' or 'disrespectful' etc...they just don't realize they've overstepped on occasion. A reminder of that can do wonders for a situation...and will often fix things before outright contention is required.


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 13, 2016)

hey, there are a lot of sharp knives around here, so one would be wise to learn about boundaries sooner rather then later :bat:


----------



## mikedtran (Jan 13, 2016)

Great points Cris and thanks for adding clarity to the situation.

I have to say I have been on fan of Don's work for quite sometime and all this talk about his work really makes me want one of his blades and want it NOW!!!!


----------



## Zwiefel (Jan 13, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> hey, there are a lot of sharp knives around here, so one would be wise to learn about boundaries sooner rather then later :bat:



Heh, sage advice Dave.



mikedtran said:


> Great points Cris and thanks for adding clarity to the situation.
> 
> I have to say I have been on fan of Don's work for quite sometime and all this talk about his work really makes me want one of his blades and want it NOW!!!!



They are certainly worth seeking out. I'm extremely fond of mine, although he's changed a number of things since.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 13, 2016)

Don's work has certainly evolved since I passed around his prototype back in 2012:


----------



## Lefty (Jan 13, 2016)

That was a great knife.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 13, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Great points Cris and thanks for adding clarity to the situation.
> 
> I have to say I have been on fan of Don's work for quite sometime and all this talk about his work really makes me want one of his blades and want it NOW!!!!



6 months my friend. Don's got big plans coming up here very shortly


----------



## mikedtran (Jan 13, 2016)

Zwiefel said:


> Heh, sage advice Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> They are certainly worth seeking out. I'm extremely fond of mine, although he's changed a number of things since.



I'm definitely on his mailing list and been looking for something that fits my needs/wants. Just haven't seen anything just yet.



CrisAnderson27 said:


> 6 months my friend. Don's got big plans coming up here very shortly



The tease of teases! 

As silly as it is the fact that he is Vietnamese (I am also) makes me want one of his knives more hahahhaah


----------



## Chuckles (Jan 13, 2016)

Don is a great guy. I bet he would really appreciate being credited by makers incorporating his unique design elements.


Worst pic ever.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 13, 2016)

1. Give credit where credit is due.

2. Clean up your damn tangs before mounting your scales!


----------



## mikedtran (Jan 13, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> Don is a great guy. I bet he would really appreciate being credited by makers incorporating his unique design elements.
> 
> 
> Worst pic ever.



That Saya!!!


----------



## chefcomesback (Jan 13, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> 1. Give credit where credit is due.
> 
> 2. Clean up your damn tangs before mounting your scales!



Don ?


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 13, 2016)

I assume Dave was talking to the original post.

And disappointed to see i was wrong after giving benefit of the doubt. But as i said, not a fan if his knives anyway


----------



## Zwiefel (Jan 13, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> Worst pic ever.



I remember that...sorta.



mikedtran said:


> That Saya!!!



Black linen micarta, made by Don himself.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 13, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> 1. Give credit where credit is due.
> 
> 2. Clean up your damn tangs before mounting your scales!





chefcomesback said:


> Don ?




Definitely _not_ Don.


----------



## Chuckles (Jan 13, 2016)

I keep thinking about this. How Don's knives are novel in a number of ways. These other knives may look like Don's work on Instagram but if you were able to hold them and cut with them there is no way there could be any confusion about who is leading and who is following.


----------



## Zwiefel (Jan 13, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> I keep thinking about this. How Don's knives are novel in a number of ways. These other knives may look like Don's work on Instagram but if you were able to hold them and cut with them there is no way there could be any confusion about who is leading and who is following.



I would be shocked to discover otherwise.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 13, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> I keep thinking about this. How Don's knives are novel in a number of ways. These other knives may look like Don's work on Instagram but if you were able to hold them and cut with them there is no way there could be any confusion about who is leading and who is following.



This is something that all makers who are being copied face. Their work is usually above average in most if not all aspects...grind, heat treat, profile, fit and finish...etc. EVERY quality maker of ANY kind of knives (kitchen knives in particular though...as they have become very popular as a source of income for knife makers...and Forged in Fire just made it worse for some reason) has other knife makers for at least 60% of his followers in places like Instagram and Facebook. Soon his feed is full of copycat lookalikes with only a nod to anything original in the design. Choil shape, profile, general handle shape...etc. The idea for these guys is to make a quick buck by copying the 'look'...without having to put the effort into the product. People fall for it because their knives are 40% or more less expensive...and they have NO WAY of knowing what they didn't get, because they never got their hands on an original to compare it to. Thus the guy doing all the work lost out, and the customer got screwed by someone who probably thinks himself that he's making equal quality knives and simply undercutting the pricing.

There was a semi-well known smith here locally that was asked by another less well known smith to teach him to make kitchen knives. The better known maker had put a lot of work into his product with a number of rather unique aspects that were learned through years of making and studying. He declined to teach the newer guy specifics, but allowed him over to his shop a cou, as he was making his living with his work and had a number of unrelated reasons not to trust the other maker. Next thing you know, the other guy is making kitchen knives and claiming to have been 'apprenticed' by the better known gentleman. The experienced smith was a little irritated, but when he was invited to a meet that he knew the less experienced gentleman would be at, he brought a few of his finished knives to set side by side with the ones he supposedly 'taught' the newer maker to build. He also brought a cutting board and some produce.

Needless to say, after one cut side by side, no one even looked twice at the new guys product. The performance, fit, finish, aesthetics, and general presence of the better known maker's knives stole the show. Even the newer maker was shocked at the difference...thinking that a kitchen knife was simply a flat ground piece of thin steel.

However, at the end of the afternoon...the established guy found out that the younger maker had sold 26 knives in the preceding month and a half...for $450 each (60-75% less than a knife from the known guy)...all using the reputation of his supposed 'mentor'. To me...this is directly comparable to your comment Chuckles...and it's a complete shame.


----------



## Asteger (Jan 14, 2016)

The discussion above obviously relates a lot to the emerging markets and practises specifically in the US, and no surprise that lots of this stuff would go on.

One reaction I have is how so-so knives sold by new makers can have an adverse negative impact on how quality knives by 'established' makers are. For eg, disappointed buyers of the $450 knives by the so-called apprentice could then wonder if the mentor's knives are equally crap. His reputation slides due to an unwanted link to a wannabe or apprenctice maker.

Sorry, but another thought I have is that the discussion so far reassures me again that I'm still best aiming my purchases toward the safer shores of Japan and Japanese makers, rather than chance things on stuff from elsewhere.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 14, 2016)

Asteger said:


> The discussion above obviously relates a lot to the emerging markets and practises specifically in the US, and no surprise that lots of this stuff would go on.
> 
> One reaction I have is how so-so knives sold by new makers can have an adverse negative impact on how quality knives by 'established' makers are. For eg, disappointed buyers of the $450 knives by the so-called apprentice could then wonder if the mentor's knives are equally crap. His reputation slides due to an unwanted link to a wannabe or apprenctice maker.
> 
> Sorry, but another thought I have is that the discussion so far reassures me again that I'm still best aiming my purchases toward the safer shores of Japan and Japanese makers, rather than chance things on stuff from elsewhere.



I think this is the issue faced by a lot of western makers trying to transition from hobbyists to full-time professionals and the reason why so few of them actually make the transition. While $450 is quite a significant amount of money to spend for a Japanese knife, and for that ballpark figure you can choose from some great knives (Mizuno, Shigefusa, Kato, etc.),it is in most cases insufficient for a western custom.

There are very few (good) western knife makers who can produce a gyuto for that price unless they're only charging $5 per hour for their labour. I think that there is also a false sense of how much this kind of work actually costs and that many people would find a price point of $450 to be 'reassuringly expensive'. I know that some people assume think that good ft and finish (for instance) is purely about skill, and not recognising the need to take your time. Of course it does take great skill, but I'm meaning that they would think that all handles are thrown together and shaped within a few minutes and the difference in F&F is attributable to the skill of the maker rather than also being heavily dependant on the time invested.

I guess the point I'm making is that people assume that all makers take a similar amount of time to make a knife and that the pricing is therefore determined primarily by how much the maker is charging as his hourly rate (rather than the number of hours taken).

I remember on a Sword forging video by Walter Sorrells there were a number of comments asking why his work is so expensive and it was only after a lot of back and forth (with Walter) that any of them seemed to understand that there's a lot more too it and it takes a lot longer than the 12 minute directors cut shown in the video. Walter also explained about how he makes the lowest hourly rate when making his most expensive blades, which I'd imagine is not at all uncommon for other knife makers.

Edit: Walter made a video about it as it must have been asked very often:

[video=youtube;c8yjWNBFPow]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8yjWNBFPow[/video]


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 14, 2016)

Asteger said:


> The discussion above obviously relates a lot to the emerging markets and practises specifically in the US, and no surprise that lots of this stuff would go on.
> 
> One reaction I have is how so-so knives sold by new makers can have an adverse negative impact on how quality knives by 'established' makers are. For eg, disappointed buyers of the $450 knives by the so-called apprentice could then wonder if the mentor's knives are equally crap. His reputation slides due to an unwanted link to a wannabe or apprenctice maker.
> 
> Sorry, but another thought I have is that the discussion so far reassures me again that I'm still best aiming my purchases toward the safer shores of Japan and Japanese makers, rather than chance things on stuff from elsewhere.



This has been hashed over...pretty much to death. You're honestly not a ton safer with a 'Japanese' knife than with a Western knife. I've seen a $1200 Misono with a huge overgrind. Misono's response to the problem when approached?

"The edge of a blade is steel.

It isnt go back to be as good as new.

But it is natural condition.

I think you dont worry about it.

Sincerely yours,
Mizunotanrenjo"

I think the main perceived value of Japanese knives is 'Well, I only paid $2xx for it and it cuts food better than Western production knives, so I can overlook overgrinds and fit and finish issues'. I know this isn't an issue across the board of course...and certainly doesn't apply to the above (rather expensive) Misono, but it's the perception I have from the growing number of Japanese knives I've handled, which includes price points starting from a JKI Ikazuchi to said Misono.

Understand also, I'm not defending Western makers nor am I attacking Japanese makers. I'm just saying that the assumption of 'Japanese is a safe bet' has been proven false many times...other than it's sometimes less expensive, making for a less expensive 'gamble'. There are plenty of Japanese makers who've put out junk, and plenty of Western makers with a reputation for solid high performance and quality. The onus is on you as the consumer to do your research on either before dropping your money.

And as for the story in my previous post, the moral is that if you buy from some podunk maker with no established reputation who is obviously trying to hustle you with name dropping or glaring similarities to an established guy's knives...be prepared for the results of your gamble to come out as something other than in your favor. Go into it with eyes open and understand that the purchase is what it is, a gamble...and don't be scared to ask for your money back if you have issues that the maker won't fix or even acknowledge (another hallmark of a rip-off artist). You may not get it, but at least the stink caused might warn others away. You might also consider asking the guy who's being used as a selling point.

Anyhow, just a few thoughts from the other side of that fence .


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 14, 2016)

Sorry, that's 'Mizuno' obviously. I have a hell of a time keeping all of the names straight lol.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 14, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> I've seen a $1200 Misono with a huge overgrind. Misono's response to the problem when approached?
> 
> "The edge of a blade is steel.
> 
> ...



That's sad to learn, do you have any images of the blade? I'd be interested to see that whole conversation. 

I have one (with no such issues) and I'm currently in the process of commissioning another custom Mizuno through Koki. I couldn't be more pleased with the one I have. 

Was it a deep over-grind or a long one (which would be worked out with thinning)?


----------



## Asteger (Jan 14, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Sorry, that's 'Mizuno' obviously. I have a hell of a time keeping all of the names straight lol.



But I think any knifemaker should have a proficient command of kanji and Japanese language, no? :cool2:

No wish to steer the thread in that J vs Others direction again, but was just a reaction to the story of the $450 'apprentice'. Having lived in Japan I can't imagine that sort of thing there, the 'instant knifemaker' although who knows. Anyway, most of us here should know better, but people can be duped and sounds like in this case they were.


----------



## chiffonodd (Jan 14, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Anyhow, just a few thoughts from the other side of that fence .



Cris I wanted to thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts in this thread. It's been very informative to get your perspective on these issues - a rare window into a world that I've been admiring as a consumer, but have had really no opportunity to understand from the maker's side of things. You've been fair, balanced, and quite thoughtful throughout. Very cool to get a sense of the artist/thinker/craftsman behind the blade.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 14, 2016)

I'm in a somewhat unique position being a professional sharpener (turned knifemaker) as I've seen, handled, and fixed many knives from all over the world. I can say confidently that non-Japanese knifemakers don't do a great job when first starting out. _*Note - I'd bet that this would be true in Japan as well but since they apprentice for years (before selling under their own name) we don't see those results like we do in the western knife world. _

Unfortunately in the kitchen knifemaking world, I'm sad to say, many US knifemakers _never_ do a truly great job regardless of experience but can do nice enough work. Some seem to do really fancy work (like those everything but the kitchen sink handles and beautiful hand rubbed finishes) yet lack on performance aspects such as profile and/or geometry yet others get the performance down but lack on basic fit & finish issues. 

New western makers usually excel at sales though.....so why is that? Well, they're priced to sell.

The pricing is low enough that people feel that they're getting a deal. It's simple - they look at the lesser priced knife compared to the higher priced knife and can't see the difference - they buy the cheaper one. 

Also consider that in today's easily skewed techno driven world that the social networks are often used to the new maker's advantage. Social networking is used to bolster their image, they post a bunch of videos and tons of pictures (especially hipster/new age-esque in design) and the flies are drawn to the light as if someone's giving away something for free. 

Then there's the fact that people always want to try the new in thing and this couldn't be more true than in today's superficial-have to beat out my neighbor-world. 

Lots of new makers use these things to their advantage and they can't be blamed for it. 



Now for Japanese knives....my opinion is that you get more for your money with a Japanese knife especially true in the low-mid price point than you will from a western knifemaker. What I mean is that there isn't going to be a western knifemaker offering the level of performance of a Japanese knife at the $200-300 price point - it'll never happen. I could argue that this will hold true even up to the $400 mark and well beyond as well.

Japanese knives, however, are truly poor in regards to fit 'n finish (f&f). Sharp tangs/choils and cheap handles are readily found at the low-mid price point but the profiles and grinds are almost always superb. I think it's a safer bet going with a Japanese knife if you can't extend towards the higher price point in the western custom world, you're more likely to get the best performance even if the f&F is poor.

Now when you cruise on up into the $500+ price range this starts to change a bit and considerations should be given to the western knifemaker. At this price point the main difference may simply be better f&f and better quality materials in the handle. The profile and geometry may or may not be on par with the Japanese equivalent.

Going above that price point the western knifemaker begins to offer some variations in the level of f&f plus premium components get used but the greatest thing should be the overall package and how it all fits together for a better user experience. The feel of the handle, balance, quickness of the blade on the board, food release, etc are the key things in this price point. Unfortunately these are the things that aren't easy to know unless you use the knife compared to others. A top priced western made knife can look the part but be a dead ass clunker on the board. It could be true that a $1000 western knife with the nicest fanciest handle could under perform compared to a Tojiro priced at <$100.

The $1000 Japanese knife is not always so great either. It will be true that the grind and profile will likely always be great but the f&f (and handle) can remain sub-par even at this price point. You won't get a dead ass clunker from Japan but just because the knife is "mirror polished" doesn't mean it's worth an extra $500 either. 

Then there's honyaki, the best of the best from Japan. Great edge retention and often finished beautifully as well but damn they are a pain in the ass to maintain. Super hard, somewhat brittle, and tough to raise a burr and then get rid of it. I've never seen a reason to pay for displeasure. 

Speaking of edge retention and sharpenablity, this is where I think the western maker has a (potential) advantage. Western makers use controlled environments (many going beyond temp controlled ovens to employ salt baths, cryo, etc) for heat treating to ensure top performance. Now this isn't to say that all western knifemakers do a better job than the Japanese just because they use more controlled environments for heat treating but they do have the ability to. I've seen some Japanese knives that are super sweet to sharpen and the same is true for western knives but I've seen far more Japanese knives that have overheated edges that are brittle and troublesome to work with than I have from western makers. The western makers who screw up in this regard are often found to be doing the eyeball in the flame method of heat treat similar to the way the Japanese (for the most part) do it. 

I don't mean to offend or upset anyone with this post, just giving out my thoughts on the subjects of new knifemakers and the value of Western (custom) vs Japanese kitchen knives.....take it for what it's worth.

Dave


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 14, 2016)

It's a funny thing where a J-knive for $150 is a great cutter then you dump in many hours to ease spine/ choil, thin behind edge, replace handle, etc. With western makers your money seems to go more for the fit 'n' finish, and only once you clear a certain price point ($400?) does the blade geometry get the attention it needs to have. Many buy the inexpensive J-knife and then put in the hours, but if your add in the value of your time it really is no where near a $150 knife once it is all done. The nice thing is both routes are available, and for pros going with a good cutter that then needs hours of refinement is much easier to swing financially than a western knife brought to the same cutting standards.

(sorry, following along the line of Dave M's post, and straying form the original topic quite a bit)


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 14, 2016)

I think the old topic is a bit finished but would love for this to continue. 

My personal purchasing habits has me tending towards highet end western makers, and a few of the higher end japanese ones. 
I would personally prefer to pay more for a knife that needs no extra work for me apart from maintenance


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 14, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> Then there's honyaki, the best of the best from Japan. Great edge retention and often finished beautifully as well but damn they are a pain in the ass to maintain. Super hard, somewhat brittle, and tough to raise a burr and then get rid of it. I've never seen a reason to pay for displeasure.



All great info Dave! Thank you for sharing your observations.

I quoted this section as I would like to ask your view on something related. 

I've been tending towards the damascus offerings of Japanese smiths, which are often at a similar price point to the Honyaki (if not higher). I've been doing so because I want the smith's best work but I don't want the hassle of a Honyaki. Is it a reasonable expectation that a damascus blade will be given additional care and attention (on par with a Honyaki) or does it seem to you that the extra cost gets you a prettier blade which performs on par with the standard clad blade?


----------



## Dave Martell (Jan 14, 2016)

IMO the Japanese damascus clad knives are no different from their standard clad knives as far as performance is concerned. I personally think they look nice though and sometimes they can be finished really nicely like Shigefusa for example. Speaking of Shigefusa damascus, it stinks, as in it smells forever because it never patinas fully, it isn't something I care for beyond it's looks. That's common with mild steel and iron cladding. There's many pretty looking Japanese clad knives that don't stink. Keep in mind that clad knives are usually thicker than non-clad.

For performance damascus I'd look towards western makers. You can get a honyaki performance level (without the downside of honyaki - difficult maintenance) mono-steel knife made completely from damascus and even get it in stainless if you desire.


----------



## Asteger (Jan 14, 2016)

Great response above from DM. I think when the topic's arisen before my impression is that non-J makers have sort of circled the wagons, so this was an interesting read coming from a US maker. (DM said 'US' makers too, but I'm assuming that he meant non-J makers generally, even if most he encounters are from the US. Geography teaches us there are other countries, and other non-J makers exist too :dazed Especially interesting admission on the non-US never doing a truly great job, as well of course on 'those everything but the kitchen sink handles' which I'd agree with.

I also like the comments about how e-marketing is an advantage non-US makers use. In Jpn makers generally market themselves very little if at all. Indeed, many just do their knifemaking and that's it. Tough to imagine some of those octogenarians fussing on new websites, for eg, and the ones I've met have definitely been the down-to-earth craftsmen sort, and perhaps not the type to think in terms of international promotion or be interested in such a thing. Local reputations still seem to play a big part and loyalty too (suppose that's not always a good thing) while I have no doubt knives sell country-wide a lot more now than the old days due to e-sellers and the odd big shops that promote different makers. (Shigefusa, for eg, seems to do well.) 

Personally, I don't like being marketed at, and so with knives I like the idea of makers being good due to their work and performance, and the idea of craftsmen doing what they do best without self-promo and bling-erising their knives is comfortable to me. I'd be suspicious of a maker that seemed to be putting in lots of effort into sales and image and snazzy web promotion. Of course, this idea doesn't depend on country of origin and seems there are several non-J makers that would be like this too. 

Another warning sign to me would be 'those everything but the kitchen sink handles' because I'd wonder how much time/effort is spent here vs getting the actual blade correct, which is something you can't see over the internet and which has to be where experience - probably best guaranteed through the Japanese apprenticeship customs - would play a part. (To be fair, though, I imagine that non-J custom makers might do handles like this and deluxe finishes because customers that go for non-J customs just tend to request these more than other knife buyers might; the maker himself might not always care for the designs but will still end up doing it for this type of customer.)

Tying things back to original/earlier topics, I'd think that some new makers are attracted to knifemaking because they're into design and creating cool-looking stuff, maybe like the fellow who did the Nguyenesque handle, and maybe this is what they're best at. Or they have a knack for a bit of sales and self-promo, like the $450-selling fake 'apprentice'. However, I'd sort of worry they'd be less interested in the hours and years of practice and work that you'd expect are necessary to become a fully-fledged, consistently great maker.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 14, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Great response above from DM. I think when the topic's arisen before my impression is that non-J makers have sort of circled the wagons, so this was an interesting read coming from a US maker. (DM said 'US' makers too, but I'm assuming that he meant non-J makers generally, even if most he encounters are from the US. Geography teaches us there are other countries, and other non-J makers exist too :dazed Especially interesting admission on the non-US never doing a truly great job, as well of course on 'those everything but the kitchen sink handles' which I'd agree with.
> 
> I also like the comments about how e-marketing is an advantage non-US makers use. In Jpn makers generally market themselves very little if at all. Indeed, many just do their knifemaking and that's it. Tough to imagine some of those octogenarians fussing on new websites, for eg, and the ones I've met have definitely been the down-to-earth craftsmen sort, and perhaps not the type to think in terms of international promotion or be interested in such a thing. Local reputations still seem to play a big part and loyalty too (suppose that's not always a good thing) while I have no doubt knives sell country-wide a lot more now than the old days due to e-sellers and the odd big shops that promote different makers. (Shigefusa, for eg, seems to do well.)
> 
> ...



While I would agree with most, if not all of what Dave said, I think you and I have some pretty serious differences in our understanding of it. The first being that he said that 'no US makers are doing a truly great job'. I'd like some clarification on that from Dave, because my understanding was that he said 'many' US makers never reach the point of doing a truly great job. Do you understand how many US makers there are? In my town alone there are probably close to 50 or more...and that's just how many I know of. Go south 150 miles to Tucson and you'll get another easy 50 makers. Now multiply that by all the semi major cities in the US. I'd say 'many' is pretty handily covered there. Now break it down to the better known makers. Guys like Devin Thomas, Marko, Dave himself, Will C, Andy Billip, and others (believe me, I could keep going). You going to tell me none of those guys get it right?

As for marketing...again, I don't think you're getting it. Japanese 'makers' don't do the marketing. The people that resell them do by having an established reputation. Most US makers don't have the luxury of being production shops with one guy making blades, one guy making handles, one guy fitting the two, etc. They are sole ownership places and the only employee is themselves. If they don't market themselves in order to build a solid customer base...they won't be in business long. In addition, they don't have an established network to purchase their work in bulk, so they have to build it. Again...if they don't do so, they won't be in business. Places like Facebook and Instagram are quick, easy, FREE tools with which to do so. They would be idiots not to take advantage of them. The next step up is webpages and forums like this one. Again, taking advantage of those is the next smart move...and so on and so forth. You have to do SOMETHING to differentiate yourself from the other 49 makers in your city alone.

On to handles. Let me ask you a question? We will take a $1200 Mizuno for example. These come with a stock handle, out of a box...and the only thing that makes it better than a ho-wood handle on a $200 Ikazuchi is the wood itself. The epoxy used to affix the blade to the predrilled handle is some weird rubber urethane epoxy, in a random color of grey, pinkish tan, or an off white (these are the colors I've seen). As you've said, the handle is nothing special at all, and neither is the fit up. The blade on the one I most recently handled was nothing special either. It was obviously purchased as stainless damascus clad blue steel bar stock, and was batch hammered into shape with dozens of other knives before being passed on to someone else to grind it, then someone else to fit it up to the afore mentioned handle out of a box..etc etc. Can you tell me what precisely makes this blade worth $1200? I'm genuinely curious. Is it the exceptional heat treat out of a forge? Or maybe it's the production grind (which again, can obviously have the same issues as anyone else making a knife)? The knife worked well enough, but again...it was NOTHING exceptional. Decent for sure...better than many of the lower tier US makers for sure as well...but nothing amazing. Now, tell me why you wouldn't want a blade from one of the above mentioned western makers that was custom made, custom ground, custom fit to the custom handle (designed specifically to your tastes), with no pre-drilled hole and mystery rubber epoxy. Why can't a maker take pride in his ENTIRE knife...without it ringing some danger bell in your head?

Also, why on earth would you think that just because a handle is nice..it would require that the blade not be? Is there a time limit? Does a maker only have time to do one or the other? For $1200 and up...you damn betcha he'd better be getting BOTH right. There's no reason not to and the only person to blame if you let that slide is yourself.

Now, as a disclaimer...I have NOTHING against Japanese knives, and I agree with Dave completely in that your average run of the mill US maker doesn't make a superior kitchen knife. Those makers aren't who the membership of this forum are being exposed to. You're being exposed to guys like I mentioned above. And while some of the other western makers on these forums aren't to the level of those guys...enough of them are that making generalizations based on them is going to be flawed from the start.

Finally, I want to touch on the last point you made:



Asteger said:


> Tying things back to original/earlier topics, I'd think that some new makers are attracted to knifemaking because they're into design and creating cool-looking stuff, maybe like the fellow who did the Nguyenesque handle, and maybe this is what they're best at. Or they have a knack for a bit of sales and self-promo, like the $450-selling fake 'apprentice'. However, I'd sort of worry they'd be less interested in the hours and years of practice and work that you'd expect are necessary to become a fully-fledged, consistently great maker.



New makers in the US and outside of Japan are attracted to bladesmithing for dozens of reasons. Most of the time they end up quickly finding a true passion for it...or they don't continue. There's a REASON there's so damn many of them lol. I can promise you that being a designer or a marketing genius are far, far down the list. Those guys make more money elsewhere doing other things. I'm also curious what would make you think that it requires hours and years of practice to become a fully fledged, consistently great maker? I know one established bladesmith that made a katana for his fourth ever blade. In his sensei's hands it outperforms said sensei's prized Japanese katana easily. This was his FOURTH blade. Japanese makers REQUIRE years to reach that level of skill...but trust me, years are NOT an actual requirement in the world outside of Japan. What is a requirement is a dedication to learning and perfecting yourself...and I'm sorry, this kind of character trait is NOT exclusive to Japan.

I truly hope this is coming across as intended lol. Again, I hold no animosity towards Japan or Japanese makers. What I'm addressing here is the tendency of a number of members on this site to lump people into huge, broad categories based on whether they're Japanese or not Japanese...without any thought or true experience in the things that might actually change their mind.


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 14, 2016)

Asteger, I think part of the issue is also that people are romanticising a dying art (my understanding is Japanese culture is going through in its younger generations where all these things you talk about are disappearing) and that you are drawn to the romance of a J knife as opposed to a western maker. 

And the other is a factor of economics/industry history. Knife/sword making in Japan is dying out so you don't see the new kids coming i wanting to do it. All you get are the serious guys (think Cris, Dave and Mert etc.) That want to do it and do it properly so they apprentice. Where as in the "Western World" it is taking off, thanks to cooking fads and hipsters and hunting/EDC makers seeing it as a better stream, so you get the copiers coming in you want to make a quick buck (which were weeded out of the japan market along time ago when it was in its infancy).

Plus add to this the different ways these makers run. In japan typical you have a smith, a sharpener a handle maker. So each is very special and geared to "mass producing" their wares. Whereas the western guys are a one stop shop who have to master everything. And as for the handles i think the "prettier" handles are just a function of the market. There are japanese makers that do this (Takeshi Saji, Mr Itou etc.) As there is a market for it. The key is realising the price points to get a quality product.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2016)

I get a lawyer when going to court...a doctor when needed. I don't really see the argument against one guy doing the steel (and being a specialist) and someone else knocking on a cheap handle, in fact I feel that is one of the biggest differentiating factors. I still don't understand how Tanaka can make those totally badass knives that retail for $150...even if they didn't come with a handle at all and some would be better without:O. As for having to do a bit of work (choil, spine, etc) I'm down with that...about a half an hours work with a file and some sandpaper. That said, I also don't mind paying someone to make me a handle if I'm bothered by it.

In the end I just want a badass cutter, really doesn't matter who makes it.:knife:


----------



## malexthekid (Jan 14, 2016)

China i wasn't saying it was a bad thing but just one of the differentiators. They become super specialised so can increase production numbers and reduce cost.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2016)

Sorry, what I meant was actually to add to what you were saying...as much as it helps with productivity, it also helps with perfecting a skillset.

Cheers


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 14, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Asteger, I think part of the issue is also that people are romanticising a dying art (my understanding is Japanese culture is going through in its younger generations where all these things you talk about are disappearing) and that you are drawn to the romance of a J knife as opposed to a western maker.
> 
> And the other is a factor of economics/industry history. Knife/sword making in Japan is dying out so you don't see the new kids coming i wanting to do it. All you get are the serious guys (think Cris, Dave and Mert etc.) That want to do it and do it properly so they apprentice. Where as in the "Western World" it is taking off, thanks to cooking fads and hipsters and hunting/EDC makers seeing it as a better stream, so you get the copiers coming in you want to make a quick buck (which were weeded out of the japan market along time ago when it was in its infancy).
> 
> Plus add to this the different ways these makers run. In japan typical you have a smith, a sharpener a handle maker. So each is very special and geared to "mass producing" their wares. Whereas the western guys are a one stop shop who have to master everything. And as for the handles i think the "prettier" handles are just a function of the market. There are japanese makers that do this (Takeshi Saji, Mr Itou etc.) As there is a market for it. The key is realising the price points to get a quality product.



Very insightful!

One thing though. You're 100% right that western makers have to master everything, whereas Japanese makers are task oriented (and often traded around from task to task throughout their apprenticeships I would assume?). The thing is, western makers aren't bound by a traditional education. No 'wax on/wax off' to learn how to block a punch if you will. The only limit to their learning is themselves. I promise you...it is entirely possible to become an established, recognized maker who puts out a quality product with no tool for education but the internet. What might surprise you even more about it is just how quickly it can be done. Look at Gregorz (I think his name here is BathonUK). Perfect example of a guy with some determination doing cool stuff. He makes knives with a 2 by freaking 72 grinder...IN HIS BATHROOM. They aren't junk either.

[video=youtube;CokjGIesNp8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CokjGIesNp8[/video]
Man I'm jealous of this guy's camera lol.

Again...the only limit is you.


----------



## Asteger (Jan 14, 2016)

Malex - sure, you're mostly right. I'm interested in some bits of Japanese culture and customs, etc, I've lived there too, and the knives and stones thing can be part of that - or more like visa versa because I'm most interested in the knives and stones actually, so in my case not much incentive to look to makers abroad. If we're talking about US makers, I also don't live there and am not from there so not much incentive again. Straightforward, not 'romantic'.

About Sakai-style production with the smith/sharpener/handlemaker, I'd agree with Chinacats that there's nothing wrong with such specialisms, and also with the idea that you might get better quality for the price this way - for eg, this guy's best with that steel, this one's best at yanagiba, etc. 

About the flashy handles, like the Itou, I have no doubt these are made for the foreign market in cooperation with the seller.

Cris - DM's words were 'many US knifemakers never do a truly great job regardless of experience' which means that some might on the other hand, while I paraphrased it as 'never' which is quite different. I'd be fired if I were a journalist. Mea culpa in this case. DM's comment isn't quite as strong perhaps as it first sounded.

However, about marketing you wrote, 'I don't think you're getting it. Japanese 'makers' don't do the marketing. The people that resell them do by having an established reputation.' Please look back at what I said about 'e-sellers and the odd big shops that promote different makers' which is in line with what you've just written. Still, I'll also say what I said before, that 'local reputations still seem to play a big part and loyalty too' because I've seen it at work, people contacting a local maker with an order because that's where they've got their stuff from before, that's one of the local makers they know, and that maker's not known elsewhere in another region. Again, nothing romantic, just the way it works, even if that's changing, etc, as Malex was saying. 

Of course, in a place like the US if a maker sets up he has to promote himself some way. It's unlikely he'd be taking over the hamono business from his father or teacher, for eg. What I wrote before was 'I'd be suspicious of a maker that seemed to be putting in lots of effort into sales and image'. I said I don't like being marketed at, and so of course my point involves the idea of style over substance. 

About this particular Mizuno knife (you'd mentioned before, Cris), sounds like a bad example. Makes me think of avoiding Mizuno in the future, but not sure why the comments are directed at me. Your handle-related question - 'Why can't a maker take pride in his ENTIRE knife...without it ringing some danger bell in your head?' doesn't follow at all. Pride and well-made handles are good things, who'd possibly disagree, but good handles don't have to be flash (and some of us would prefer them not to). The 'everything but the kitchen sink' type may catch some people's attention, but there shouldn't be an assumption that the attached blade is great too. In my case, I'd worry that too much effort's going into eye-catching handle bling and not the blade, whose quality you couldn't really judge in photos. 



CrisAnderson27 said:


> New makers in the US and outside of Japan are attracted to bladesmithing for dozens of reasons. ... I'm also curious what would make you think that it requires hours and years of practice to become a fully fledged, consistently great maker? ... . Japanese makers REQUIRE years to reach that level of skill...but trust me, years are NOT an actual requirement in the world outside of Japan. What is a requirement is a dedication to learning and perfecting yourself...and I'm sorry, this kind of character trait is NOT exclusive to Japan.
> 
> I truly hope this is coming across as intended lol. ... . What I'm addressing here is the tendency of a number of members on this site to lump people into huge, broad categories based on whether they're Japanese or not Japanese...without any thought or true experience in the things that might actually change their mind.



My words again were 'I'd think that some new makers are attracted to knifemaking because they're into design and creating cool-looking stuff' which does not exclude that there are other reasons at play, naturally. I mentioned the 'hours and years of practice and work that you'd expect are necessary to become a fully-fledged, consistently great maker' which doesn't mean it's a requirement, just something 'you'd expect' and which is logical and reasonable and assuring to most customers. As for 'dedication to learning and perfecting yourself' not being exclusively Japanese, I never said or implied anything of the sort. Lots of your comments are directed at me, but I'm not sure how carefully you read mine and, sometimes, if I was the one you were actually writing to.

I understand about trying to address tendencies for people to think too much in generalisations and to lump others into huge, broad categories. However, I feel you've just put quite a few words into my mouth and done exactly that to me, portraying lots of what I said in ways that aren't true, maybe imagining I think or said things I don't or didn't. It's great you're staking out a claim and getting out the message that there are great makers not just in Japan and I know you're trying to dispell some perceived myths, but your message might work better with more careful knifemaker-style attention to detail.


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 14, 2016)

I'm currently out to a late dinner with my little ones and so will have to wait for a more detailed reply...but one thing I wanted to make sure of was that my tone was coming across properly. This is definitely a subject I feel passionate about lol...so I may be coming across overly strongly. If that's the case please realize that the way I actually should be being taken is as though we were two friends having this discussion face to face over a meal somewhere .

More later!


----------



## Asteger (Jan 14, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> .. please realize that the way I actually should be being taken is as though we were two friends having this discussion face to face over a meal somewhere



Okay, but you're buying!


----------



## MontezumaBoy (Jan 15, 2016)

I will personally 'buy for the both of you' ... just too watch and listen since I would prefer to be the proverbial 'fly on the wall' as you both have my utmost respect having seen your posts, thoughts and comments (& certainly for Chris - his work). Just go ahead and name the place / time but realize it will have to be in San Diego since I am the one buying :groucho: my home is always open and (last I checked) I can figure out something to serve ... even for the little ones should they choose to join ... my big kitties (Maine Coons) love the little people ...

Looking forward to the continued "discussion" - a healthy and interesting one at that!

Tom


----------



## Asteger (Jan 15, 2016)

Thanks very much, MB. As Cris hasn't responded yet I've already gone ahead and ordered the lobster and a rather delightful Krug Clos dAmbonnay* on his behalf - all but done now - and I've informed him via a Facebook message just in case. Forgot to remind him to bring his credit card, but if things don't work out maybe he can just forge a honyaki for the chef. :whistling:

Don't want to lose track of the fact, though, that the thread relates to design copying (Nguyen) and an example of a posing new knifemaker who did a shotgun 'apprenticeship' that has helped him sell pricey knives, and I wasn't meaning to steer things to a knife-themed re-enactment of Japan vs the Allies in WWII. 

I'm hoping the dinner's over soon and someone else steps in because these posts are too long and I'll get typer's cramp. Plus, dessert's on the way. Cris is full of good points and I wish there were more makers writing often like he does here, as he really fills in some blanks in discussions. I'm sure he & I agree on almost all stuff, although maybe he was reacting before to past discussions, comments or general perceived ideas outside of this thread rather than what was actually said, that's what I think. Hence the lobster.

(*Had no idea what this was and just looked it up for the occasion. Expensive, but a real treat. Cheers)


----------



## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 15, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Okay, but you're buying!



Of course!!

Now on to the entree lol:



Asteger said:


> About Sakai-style production with the smith/sharpener/handlemaker, I'd agree with Chinacats that there's nothing wrong with such specialisms, and also with the idea that you might get better quality for the price this way - for eg, this guy's best with that steel, this one's best at yanagiba, etc.



I'm not sure I agree with this entire statement, though I don't necessarily disagree. It's possible you 'might' get better quality, if each person in each position wasn't treating it like an assembly line. In the videos I've seen, these guys are pretty much banging them out. This is not to say they're doing so 'poorly' at all...just that it's not going to get the attention to detail that a knife that takes 40hrs out of a single man's life gets. Again...not saying custom knives are 'better'. Just...different. Your comment about the price being the qualifier can absolutely hold true here. 




Asteger said:


> Cris - DM's words were 'many US knifemakers never do a truly great job regardless of experience' which means that some might on the other hand, while I paraphrased it as 'never' which is quite different. I'd be fired if I were a journalist. Mea culpa in this case. DM's comment isn't quite as strong perhaps as it first sounded.



Absolutely! But you must understand...this set the tone for the way the rest of your comments were perceived. It's entirely possible for a white sheet of paper to take on all sorts of colors, depending on the color of light cast on it.




Asteger said:


> However, about marketing you wrote, 'I don't think you're getting it. Japanese 'makers' don't do the marketing. The people that resell them do by having an established reputation.' Please look back at what I said about 'e-sellers and the odd big shops that promote different makers' which is in line with what you've just written. Still, I'll also say what I said before, that 'local reputations still seem to play a big part and loyalty too' because I've seen it at work, people contacting a local maker with an order because that's where they've got their stuff from before, that's one of the local makers they know, and that maker's not known elsewhere in another region. Again, nothing romantic, just the way it works, even if that's changing, etc, as Malex was saying.
> 
> Of course, in a place like the US if a maker sets up he has to promote himself some way. It's unlikely he'd be taking over the hamono business from his father or teacher, for eg. What I wrote before was 'I'd be suspicious of a maker that seemed to be putting in lots of effort into sales and image'. I said I don't like being marketed at, and so of course my point involves the idea of style over substance.



Yes, that does fit in exactly with what I said. It leaves the maker able to keep a completely clean nose...which is a NICE luxury lol. Some makers I know like the interaction with their customers as much as the bladesmithing, lol...so maybe for them it balances out . I would also agree about the 'local maker' thing in general...but for most of us, the kitchen knife community/market is spread pretty far and wide. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you wrote. If a bladesmith tried to live on local sales.....even in a city as food service rich as here in Phoenix...he would starve.

Again though, perhaps I'm mistaking your meaning.

Oh, also...I tend to hate the 'overmarketing' thing too, or being marketed to directly. It seems somehow insulting. But tastefully presented pictures and discussions of a western maker's work is definitely something I feel would be mandatory. I think we are more in agreement there than disagreement...it just came across differently in our initial posts. 




Asteger said:


> About this particular Mizuno knife (you'd mentioned before, Cris), sounds like a bad example. Makes me think of avoiding Mizuno in the future, but not sure why the comments are directed at me. Your handle-related question - 'Why can't a maker take pride in his ENTIRE knife...without it ringing some danger bell in your head?' doesn't follow at all. Pride and well-made handles are good things, who'd possibly disagree, but good handles don't have to be flash (and some of us would prefer them not to). The 'everything but the kitchen sink' type may catch some people's attention, but there shouldn't be an assumption that the attached blade is great too.  In my case, I'd worry that too much effort's going into eye-catching handle bling and not the blade, whose quality you couldn't really judge in photos.



What I meant by 'good handles' is well done, properly fit (without a gaping hole full of rubber epoxy visible...some gap is to be expected), and cleanly executed handles. The number of spacers or the materials aren't relevant to me as those would seem to be tailored to each customer's preference on a case by case basis. Some people prefer a tasteful walnut with one to three thin metal spacers, others want bog oak and mammoth tooth. Either way the handle shouldn't be pulled out of a box and slapped on to a $1200 knife in my opinion...because again...for $1200 I would expect every aspect of a knife to be nailed to the wall or damn close. Fit, finish, grind, performance, ergonomics, sharpness. The more 'bling'...the more the knife will cost...but the rest of the previously mentioned aspects of a good/great knife shouldn't suffer for the 'kitchen sink' handle that some guy paid an extra $1000 for, lol. 

On the Mizuno itself...this knife wasn't a fluke, and other than the overgrind it wasn't a 'bad' knife. It just wasn't a $1200 knife. I spoke to a friend who told me that if someone handed him the bar stock steel and a handle, he could produce that knife in less than a day for $400-$500 or so. That's forging, grinding, normalizing, heat treating, finish grinding, polishing, and fitting to that handle...and at $400 it STILL adds up to $50/hr. In addition, I've handled a number of moderately high end Japanese knives over the last few years, and they were all 'good' knives. The western handled versions (I prefer wa handles myself btw) seem to have an overall better level of fit and finish for some reason. The wa handled units are just disappointing. That $1200 Mizuno has the SAME handle as knives costing 1/3 or less the price...with the same level of fit and finish. Also keep in mind I'm only bringing up this specific knife because it's the most recent and fresh in my mind. It's certainly not an anomaly, at least not in my experience.




Asteger said:


> My words again were 'I'd think that some new makers are attracted to knifemaking because they're into design and creating cool-looking stuff' which does not exclude that there are other reasons at play, naturally. I mentioned the 'hours and years of practice and work that you'd expect are necessary to become a fully-fledged, consistently great maker' which doesn't mean it's a requirement, just something 'you'd expect' and which is logical and reasonable and assuring to most customers. As for 'dedication to learning and perfecting yourself' not being exclusively Japanese, I never said or implied anything of the sort. Lots of your comments are directed at me, but I'm not sure how carefully you read mine and, sometimes, if I was the one you were actually writing to.



I can understand where you're coming from here...but I have to say something and I don't want you to take it wrong. When your opening statement is that you will be avoiding non-Japanese knives because Japanese knives are a 'safer' bet...and then you continue to defend that point with broad statements that are lacking qualifiers (even if you thought the qualifiers would be obvious)...your following comments are probably going to be taken pretty literally. I don't think it's any fault of yours...just the way communication via text works. I have and had been taking your comments as follow up comments supporting your claim that Japanese knives are a safer bet than Western/US knives. Again, in that light...the things I've been saying make sense...and the assumptions as to your meaning aren't huge leaps. Even the examples you mentioned above....when given in conjunction with touting Japanese makers as superior...will be taken (as I said) in support of that position. Japanese makers DO spend years learning their craft. My point in support of other makers outside of Japan...is that it's their culture that makes it necessary, not the difficulty of the work. This back and forth is again a dynamic of online communication. I have to take your points as I read them (remember, there weren't any qualifiers on them...so my understanding is going to be based directly on things you've previously said...and vice versa)...and that can very often lead to great misunderstanding between two people who've taken a vastly differing stance on a subject.

Also, I've been addressing my responses to you, and basing them on the things you've said...because you're the one I'm talking to here for the most part .



Asteger said:


> I understand about trying to address tendencies for people to think too much in generalisations and to lump others into huge, broad categories. However, I feel you've just put quite a few words into my mouth and done exactly that to me, portraying lots of what I said in ways that aren't true, maybe imagining I think or said things I don't or didn't. It's great you're staking out a claim and getting out the message that there are great makers not just in Japan and I know you're trying to dispell some perceived myths, but your message might work better with more careful knifemaker-style attention to detail.



I don't think I'm doing anything new in supporting makers outside of Japan. No maker anywhere is going to keep selling $1k plus knives if they don't work at a level that at least shines...if not completely outshines other lower cost makers. He will run out of 'bling groupies' to buy them eventually, lol. I agree that in a dollar for dollar scenario it's hard to beat Japanese knives. But I would like to think that at least some US makers are putting out knives that are far enough above other knives in performance that 2 or 3x the price seems a bargain.


----------



## Asteger (Jan 15, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> It's possible you 'might' get better quality, if each person in each position wasn't treating it like an assembly line. In the videos I've seen, these guys are pretty much banging them out.



Definitely, because if it all becomes monotony people could start to care less or least get bored and distracted (_handle, handle, handle, handle, handle_...) and so you'd worry about this. I wonder with that Mizuno flop. I haven't followed Mizuno, but they seem a little too anonymous to me. I had a recent disappointing experience with Konosuke who I think also have a larger operation, too. I've seen their busy warehouse/office, which was different from other makers who I think are smaller-scale, and there has to be a different feeling. 



CrisAnderson27 said:


> I tend to hate the 'overmarketing' thing too, or being marketed to directly. It seems somehow insulting. But tastefully presented pictures and discussions of a western maker's work is definitely something I feel would be mandatory.



Definitely, although with me I'm anti-bling too. Knife bling's very visual, and maybe when the bling element occurs - kaleidoschope handles and impossible finishes - it could be a sign of attention-seeking rather than great knifemaking. Well done pictures and presentations could be more prevalent in Japan, too.



CrisAnderson27 said:


> What I meant by 'good handles' is well done, properly fit ... and cleanly executed handles. The number of spacers or the materials aren't relevant to me as those would seem to be tailored to each customer's preference on a case by case basis. Some people prefer a tasteful walnut with one to three thin metal spacers, others want bog oak and mammoth tooth.



'Tasteful walnut' sounds good. Spacers, added layers, caps, those rhinestone things, extinct animal parts, diamonds, ivory carvings, imbedded microchips, usb jacks - these all seem unnecessary. Wondering what a maker does when a customer requests a puke-awful handle design? Are some designs ever refused? ('Sorry, but I just don't want my name connected with this thing...')



CrisAnderson27 said:


> Either way the handle shouldn't be pulled out of a box and slapped on to a $1200 knife in my opinion...because again...for $1200 I would expect every aspect of a knife to be nailed to the wall or damn close. Fit, finish, grind, performance, ergonomics, sharpness.



Definitely, and that's the opposite end of the spectrum. 



CrisAnderson27 said:


> your claim that Japanese knives are a safer bet than Western/US knives.



I mentioned the 'safe shores of Japan' or something similar. I wasn't expecting such attention, but if I had sure I'd qualify it more because in my case I wouldn't be the sort to go for that $1200 Mizuno. Tonight's champagne (thanks again) cost 2-3 honyaki and also wouldn't be something I'd pay for myself. In a KKF context, I'm probably normal if you think of wanting a gyuto and aiming for the $200-$500 bracket, which might be seen as a default, and where above there already seems to be consensus that you should go Japanese; your tale of the $450 apprentice helped illustrate this.



CrisAnderson27 said:


> I agree that in a dollar for dollar scenario it's hard to beat Japanese knives. But I would like to think that at least some US makers are putting out knives that are far enough above other knives in performance that 2 or 3x the price seems a bargain.



I would extend this to non-J makers all over the place, not just the US, who work in this high-end bracket and who are probably influenced through Japan. In my case, I've not owned a knife above around $600 and so I can't comment on the $1200 kind, while the idea that a knife for double the price of my $600 would have triple the performance sounds good if improbable. For the time being, therefore, I'll stick with the safe shores.

Thanks for the explanations and dinner. Maybe Zwiefel should pay for starting this thread.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jan 15, 2016)

Asteger said:


> 'Tasteful walnut' sounds good. Spacers, added layers, caps, those rhinestone things, extinct animal parts, diamonds, ivory carvings, imbedded microchips, usb jacks - these all seem unnecessary.



Completely off topic, but I like the idea of having an inbuilt encrypted USB drive!

It would give me a reasonable excuse to carry the knife around with me and have it on my desk when I'm working. :knife:


----------



## Zwiefel (Jan 15, 2016)

This is one of the very few places on the internet that a thread started about a small business having their concepts....uhhhh....flattered...turns into a substantive dialogue about the nature of the industry, various business models, etc. Good job guys.

Also...let me know about this San Diego thing...I mean, I did start this discussion and all <ahem>


----------



## Asteger (Jan 15, 2016)

Danny O's dodging the bullet


----------

