# MagnaCut passaround [LIVE]



## mengwong

Would any knife steel nerds like to try out


MSicardCutlery said:


> Another very thin MagnaCut gyuto


as a passaround?

Good opportunity to check out @MSicardCutlery’s work… I’d be happy for people to spend a week or two with the knife. Put it to the test re edge retention, just no brass nails please.

Please snap before/after photos upon arrival and departure, and include them in your review. Sharpen it on the way in, not on the way out, so the next person can do their own thing with the edge. (If you’re a polisher, go nuts. You’ll find a small piece of Magnacut scrap on the side to experiment with.)

This passaround will remain open as long as people are interested. Post in this thread if you want to try it and I will add you to the list. No geographical limits. I’ll organize the list of recipients roughly according to seniority and proximity.

I don’t want to micromanage the shipping so when it’s your turn, DM the person after you on the list and ask for their address and phone number.

@SolidSnake03
@deltaplex
@Nagakin
@mrmoves92
@superworrier
@blokey
@Delat
@timebard
@Malcolm Johnson
@ew_ut
@Trouthead
@ethompson
@eltonmichael45
@Homechef
@sansho
@Hz_zzzzzz
@ac3b00g12
@mengwong

Background: I was hoping to have it in my hands by now, but as fate would have it, it got stuck in my US->SG transshipment service because, long story short, the “knife” declaration got it marked as “dangerous” so now it needs to go somewhere else in the U.S. first… hopefully someone at the end of the passaround chain will be able to FedEx it to me with a “meek and harmless kitchen knife” label. If knife reaches me by Christmas l’ll be happy but more importantly I want everyone to get a chance to spend some time with the toy.


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## timebard

Interested!


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## ew_ut

I’d be interested!


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## M1k3

Interested


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## SolidSnake03

I'm interested for sure, one of the steels I haven't actually tried yet. I'm intrigued.


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## MSicardCutlery

mengwong said:


> Background: I was hoping to have it in my hands by now, but as fate would have it, it got stuck in my US->SG transshipment service because, long story short, the “knife” declaration got it marked as “dangerous” so now it needs to go somewhere else in the U.S. first… hopefully someone at the end of the passaround chain will be able to FedEx it to me with a “meek and harmless kitchen knife” label. As long as the knife reaches me by Christmas l’ll be happy.



I'm so sorry to hear this has happened. I started declaring my packages as "kitchen cutlery" as opposed to "kitchen knife" a few weeks ago hoping to eliminate the possibility of such an occurrence. Sadly, not soon enough.


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## HumbleHomeCook

MSicardCutlery said:


> I'm so sorry to hear this has happened. I started declaring my packages as "kitchen cutlery" as opposed to "kitchen knife" a few weeks ago hoping to eliminate the possibility of such an occurrence. Sadly, not soon enough.



Don't know if it makes any difference, but I always put "Kitchen Tool".


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## mengwong

No worries, in situations like this I choose to believe that everything happens for a reason… now everyone gets to enjoy the blade, while I get to enjoy everyone’s reviews! The knife will surely cut better after being improved by so many expert hands…


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## ethompson

Definitely interested, curious about modern steels but never get around to pulling the trigger.


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## MSicardCutlery

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Don't know if it makes any difference, but I always put "Kitchen Tool".


That's a good idea. 


mengwong said:


> No worries, in situations like this I choose to believe that everything happens for a reason… now everyone gets to enjoy the blade, while I get to enjoy everyone’s reviews! The knife will surely cut better after being improved by so many expert hands…


As will I, I hope

I really need to thank you for this. I've been wanting to do a P/A for a while, but it's so damn hard to pick the "right" knife. I'm glad you're more decisive than I am.


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## blokey

Interested as well.


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## mrmoves92

I am interested


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## superworrier

Interested


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## sansho

i'm interested. not just because of magnacut but also i'd like to check out @MSicardCutlery 's work.


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## Hz_zzzzzz

I'm interested in both the steel and the maker!


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## Delat

Interested!


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## deltaplex

Interested.


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## Homechef

Interested. Thanks for setting this up!


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## Malcolm Johnson

I’d be interested, if there is still room.


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## Trouthead

Me too


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## Nagakin

Interested


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## ModRQC

Depending on the transporter, some keywords are automatically targeted by the custom system. Knife is usually one. 

Kitchen Utensil or Kitchen tool works best.


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## ac3b00g12

Interested!


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## eltonmichael45

Kind of a newbie but also interested in modern steels I'd be interested


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## SolidSnake03

Hi all!

I was the first user on this knife and wanted to post my thoughts and impressions on it. First of all thank you so much to Meng for letting us all try this out. It’s a great way try out Magnacut and see how one feels about it as a steel for a knife. Since Magnacut is pretty much just in customs right now this is really helpful. Also cool touch that the knife came with a little bar of the steel itself with it.

Okay onto the knife. I’ll get my negatives out of the way first and to be honest none of them have to do with the steel itself. The profile for me was a bit more curved than I would like so wasn’t a huge fan of that. I would have liked a bit lower of a tip especially for pull cuts. The height and length were great just the profile wasn’t to my personal taste. The other negative for me was the weight/style overall. I’m tending to use more thicker spines knives and more middleweight to workhorse type stuff. Just feels more comfortable and i like the forward balance. This knife is more on the laser side for sure. Not the most lasery laser but definitely a laser. Again nothing wrong with the knife just my personal negatives. 

Now onto the good stuff. The handle is simple but nice and the edges of the blade are well eased so very comfortable overall. The low weight also means you could use it for hours no problem. It’s light and nimble feeling. Balance was fairly even given the light weight overall. The steel though is the winner for me. Magnacut is legit. I used it for a number of long prep sessions (hours at a time on multiple days) and all I did was a light strop. Generally for carbons I would need to hit my high grit stone at least after this. Stainless would be okay but wouldn’t take the fine edge generally speaking that this did. I did touch up the edge on a couple naturals just to get a feel for it and it takes a screaming edge off naturals which generally speaking can be hit or miss on stainless. It didn’t feel as connected to the stone as say white steel can feel, it felt a little deader than that like stainless does but at the same time took and held a better edge than pretty much all my stainless. It’s an interesting steel for sure. I like it. I think it’s a very nice steel and doesn’t show any of the bad parts of steels I’ve tried like gummy feeling or hard to deburr. Edge retention is good, not amazing but quite good. And overall it’s a great steel.


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## MSicardCutlery

I should add that I take MC to a 2k edge and strop it. I would go higher, but I know how everyone loves to put a new knife to their stones right away.


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## mengwong

SolidSnake03 said:


> Magnacut is legit.


Thank you for the review! Geometry and heft are subjective but the sharpness and retention results are indisputable.



SolidSnake03 said:


> Also cool touch that the knife came with a little bar of the steel itself with it.



Maybe one day all fancy knives will come with a tiny piece of scrap, the sort of luxury signifier that mystifies the uninitiated 

(The answer (hello /r/whatisthisthing): originally so knife-polishing nuts can experiment with different finishes without risking the main body of the knife, later evolved to become a flex for various reasons.)

@deltaplex is next


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## deltaplex

It's here! Made short work of the little amount of dinner prep I had last night. I'll put it through it's paces the next few days, touch it up and send it along.


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## deltaplex

@Nagakin please send me a PM so I can get things ready and sent to you.


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## deltaplex

I'm sending this out today, and I figured I'd post my impressions; I'll get the personal preferences bit out of the way first. This knife isn't my ideal profile, it's basically a really tall european style, and that's a bit of a "tweaner" for how I cut. I think the closest knife from simply a edge profile perspective that I've used is the ZKramer and I feel similarly about those. I prefer carbon steel, a slightly shorter neck, and I prefer the balance point a little further forward than it is for a knife of this size.

Now that all of that is out of the way: This is a very well made knife all around. The steel held and edge with little reduction in sharpness for the time I had it (about a week as a home cook, using it almost exclusively) the satin finish on it is really consistent and non-grabby in use and the grind on it is solid for an all-around knife, which I think suits this profile well. The handle feels nice in hand and didn't pick up any staining while in use or while I was touching it up on the stones, and the fit and finish is very good for something at this price point. I did basically just touch it up on stones before I got it boxed up, and if it were my knife I likely would have put it through a slightly more complete progression, but it didn't really need it with the use I put on it. It feels good (for a stainless) on the stones and I can tell it's more wear resistant than the AEB-L and SG2 knives that I've worked on before. Overall I think it's a really good choice for anyone looking for a worry free monosteel option with good sharpen-ability and good edge retention. I'll add that if you see an offering from Matt that checks off your personal steel (mix)/profile/spec categories, I wouldn't hesitate to pick it up.

It's heading out to Nagakin today and hopefully he'll be able to post his impressions sometime next week.


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## deltaplex

Here are some pics I took when it arrived:


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## mengwong

Updated sequence with minor edits. Please check further downthread as this may not be the latest. (Posts become immutable after a while.)

@SolidSnake03
@deltaplex
@Nagakin
@mrmoves92
@blokey
@Delat
@superworrier
@ethompson
@Malcolm Johnson
@timebard
@ew_ut
@Trouthead
@eltonmichael45
@Homechef
@sansho
@Hz_zzzzzz
@ac3b00g12
@MSicardCutlery 
@jsph
@mengwong


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## mrmoves92

mengwong said:


> Updated sequence with minor edits: I believe @Nagakin is currently in possession, please contact @mrmoves92 who will be next! Thanks all.
> 
> @SolidSnake03
> @deltaplex
> @Nagakin
> @mrmoves92
> @blokey
> @Delat
> @superworrier
> @timebard
> @Malcolm Johnson
> @ew_ut
> @Trouthead
> @ethompson
> @eltonmichael45
> @Homechef
> @sansho
> @Hz_zzzzzz
> @ac3b00g12
> @mengwong


I have it right now, and I will send it to @blokey soon.


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## mrmoves92

I sent the knife to blokey two days ago. 

I was traveling for work during part of my week with the knife, and I am only a home cook, so I didn’t use it a ton, but here are my thoughts:

Condition when I got it:
When I got the knife, the tip was rounded, and there were some light scratches from sharpening. The knife was completely dull. It wouldn’t even initiate a cut/bite into newspaper with the grain.

Sharpening:
Given how dull it was when I received the knife, I had to sharpen the knife (more than I was expecting). I didn’t want to excessively sharpen the knife because it is someone else’s knife, and other people will be sharpening it, so I just sharpened it enough to be usable. I am used to simple carbon steels (white, blue) and ginsan, which are all easy to sharpen. Sharpening Magnacut was different for me. The steel felt hard and like it didn’t want to be abraded. The knife/stones did not release much slurry/mud, and everything seemed to take more time to happen. With the time I spent, my simple carbon or ginsan knives would have gotten sharper than the Magnacut knife ended up being, but that could just be my fault. For me, I will probably stick to simple, really easy to sharpen steels like white, blue, and ginsan, but that is my personal preference because I like easy sharpening and don’t need long edge retention at home.

Fit and finish:
Really nice! The spine and choil are rounded nicely, and the knife is really comfortable to hold and use. I LOVED the handle. It felt really nice to me. The sanded polish on the knife looked good.

Use:
You will have to take my points here with a pinch of salt because I am left handed (and this is a right handed knife), and I didn’t get the greatest edge on it.
The profile was a lot better than I was expecting, but the tip was a little high compared to what I prefer.
This knife cut well. The knife is thin overall/at the spine, but it still has decent food release for how thin it is (I am sure that it would have better/good food release for a right handed user). I care most about food release when cutting apples into ~1cm slices for lunch, and for this task, the pass around knife had better food release than my flatter ground knives, similar food release to my Kikuchiyo Yohei gyuto, but not as good food release compared to my Takeda gyuto.
The knife wasn’t super super thin behind the edge, which has pros and cons. It felt sturdy in use and never felt delicate to me, but it caught up a bit in really dense carrots (a better edge might have helped some). It behaved well in everything else and cut well/smoothly.

That is everything that I can think of. Hopefully, what I said was accurate. I am relatively inexperienced compared to many here, so I would trust the opinions from other users more than myself.


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## blokey

Just got the knife, looks great so far, the edge is working for me, I might do some sharpening on Gesshin 2k just to see how it feels. The grind and taper is good.


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## blokey

Just took it to the stone, first the sharpening itself actually feels pretty good, not the glassy and non-engaging feel of some other PMs. But it is still much harder to raise a burr than any carbon I've touched, probably took me longer than SG2. I used Gesshin 2k and stroped it on Gesshin 4k, as said before, while I definetly dont doubt with enough time and patience it could get as sharp as carbon steel, it is much harder to get to the same level of sharpness.


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## sansho

i wonder if i'll notice a difference on my diamond stones. will be interesting to try


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## mengwong

Yes, everybody please feel free to sharpen. We’re here to learn about the steel. I’d say do it on the way in, not on the way out, to let the next guy have the full experience. And polish and thin or whatever, if that’s your thing.

Also can I request folks take a photo of themselves with some piece of produce stuck on the edge or on the tip? I want the knife to be able to entertain its fellows on the block, one day, with a slideshow from its travels.


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## MSicardCutlery

sansho said:


> i wonder if i'll notice a difference on my diamond stones. will be interesting to try


Definitely. Diamond stones make sharpening MagnaCut a total breeze.


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## blokey

After a week of testing, I will be shipping the knife towards @Delat tomorrow. 

Edge Retention:
So far the steel has hold up really well in my home environment, its edge retention certainly exceeded my workload and still holds a very sharp edge, I have resharpened it again on Gesshin 2k only to test it again on stone. This time it is still very much time consuming than my other steel, it is not glassy but rather catchy, not a hard steel to sharpen but a time consuming one to sharpen to a high sharpness. I would say it has better retention than my experience with SG2.
Toughness:
The edge itself is very very tough both due to the steel and grind, even tho the knife itself it thin, I never have to worry a bit about potential chipping. If I can choose a steel to make a CCKish thin cleaver or a semi-flexible fishing knife this would be it.
Corrosion resistance:
Nothing to say here, I live in LA and don't have to deal with much rust anyway, Larrin showed it to be one the best corrosion resistant PM steel on the market and I trust him.
Fit and Finish:
Great, all rounded and very comfortable to use, I'm not a small gyuto guy but this one makes me want to buy one, being closer to the tip helps alot with some precision work.
Grind:
Sophistic and very tough, seems more oriented towards food release and toughness, but TBH I would like it thinner behind the edge and move the convex part down alittle bit, it did well in softer ingredients but notably need more force to push through thick carrots and daikon. I also prefer a thicker spine but that has more to do with the stock steel not the maker.


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## Delat

Knife arrived yesterday. The tip is slightly bent, which I think a previous user mentioned. Hard to get it to show in a photo but I attached a couple anyway. Other than that it’s in good shape and was still reasonably sharp. I went ahead and did a touchup on an SG4000 to get the best first impression once I use it. 





My SG4000 was barely up to the task - see post-sharpening photo. Usually it would have a lot of swarf after the amount of sharpening I did, but the magnacut seemed to just be saying, “oooh stop, that tickles!” to my stone. I’d probably invest in diamond stones if I was going to build a collection with steels like this. I didn’t raise a burr, but managed to get it sharp enough to push cut newspaper so it’s ready for action.


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## Delat

A little difficulty with big onions - video as requested by @mengwong. Now this could partially be due to sharpness - the edge I have on cleanly slices newspaper but not a paper towel. I gave the entire blade surface a rubdown with 3200 micro mesh in case of stiction, but honestly I’m not sure the micro mesh did anything at all due to the toughness of the steel. 

Given how thin the grind is, I’m sure somebody with more experience (and better equipment) than me could improve the performance without too much effort. 

Not sure what I’m cooking tonight - I have some short ribs so maybe I’ll get some carrots and sweet potatoes to add to the cutting videos. I suspect the knife will be smooth sailing through the carrots.





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## Delat

I was puzzled over the performance on the onions, so I took a measurement. At the midpoint it’s .4mm @1mm BTE. Generally I like to see .1 to .2 with my own knives.

In offline conversation with @MSicardCutlery we think it’s likely the knife has lost about 1.5mm in height, putting it at the point where it’s due for a bit of thinning. If anyone downstream has better stones than me for this steel (i.e. diamonds) then a bit of thinning BTE is warranted (after checking with @mengwong of course).

I’ll be packing it up and passing along to @Malcolm Johnson later this week. FYI @mengwong, Malcom and @timebard are swapping slots.

Here’s my final video. As noted by @blokey, in its current state (needing thinning) the knife is best on softer ingredients. The hesitation with push cuts on tomatoes is entirely my fault for not having the patience to get a better edge with my stones (shapton glass) that are exceedingly slow on this very tough metal. I thought I’d gotten it reasonably sharp but the tomatoes proved me wrong. It’s certainly at the point where I’d do a touchup otherwise.






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## mengwong

Fascinating! Anyone who’s comfortable with thinning, please feel free. @Delat i appreciate your attention to detail and the initiative to investigate. This is turning into an open-source knife, everybody help debug lol

Draw cuts really do come through, eh.

BTW, if I may suggest a plan for all the tomatoes, potatoes, onions, etc fodder… Patatas bravas!


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## superworrier

Looks like there was another minor mixup. I was inserted before timebard because I was out of town (not in the original post). No worries. @Malcolm Johnson can send it to me after and I'll send to @timebard after if that works.


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## Delat

Passaround is on its way to @superworrier, then @Malcolm Johnson after him.


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## superworrier

Received. The choil shot is a little deceiving IMO because the edge bevel is somewhat thick actually


I got the same BTE measurements (.4-.5). I don’t think I have the stones to thin this without a ton of trouble unfortunately (also lost my patience from thinning my YTanaka AS which was a pain). I’ve used it a little but I’ll save it for the goodbye post.


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## ch_br

blokey said:


> After a week of testing, I will be shipping the knife towards @Delat tomorrow.
> 
> Nothing to say here, I live in LA and don't have to deal with much rust anyway, Larrin showed it to be one the best corrosion resistant PM steel on the market and I trust him.



Man o man, if I knew you lived in LA I would have asked to potentially view it when it was in town..


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## blokey

superworrier said:


> Received. The choil shot is a little deceiving IMO because the edge bevel is somewhat thick actually
> 
> 
> I got the same BTE measurements (.4-.5). I don’t think I have the stones to thin this without a ton of trouble unfortunately (also lost my patience from thinning my YTanaka AS which was a pain). I’ve used it a little but I’ll save it for the goodbye post.


Should we send it next to someone who have the stone or return to MSicard for a thining?


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## MSicardCutlery

If no one has the stones () to do it, I'd be happy with taking it back for a thinning.

When Delat told me about the TBE I was a little surprised, but it was late so I initially discounted it as an error on my part. The next morning I set my calipers to .4mm and measured a bunch of similarly ground blades and found that the average distance from the edge where the blades measured .4mm was roughly 2.5mm-3mm. From that I concluded that the PA knife had lost some height and that accounted for the excess thickness bte. That's not to point fingers, I'd taken no such measurements prior to shipping the knife, and given the spontaneous nature of the PA it hadn't really crossed my mind to get those measurements from the first user. So I can't at all discount the possibility that this knife's geometry differed from the others on my table and that it was just thick to begin with. 

This has, as of about 3/4 weeks ago compelled me to thin my grinds a bit more. Some adjustments to my grinder have allowed me to make the convexity more gradual as well.


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## ethompson

So…. I’m exactly the sort of masochist who’d love to see what thinning magnacut is like haha

Also happy to let the maker do so, obviously!


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## MSicardCutlery

ethompson said:


> So…. I’m exactly the sort of masochist who’d love to see what thinning magnacut is like haha
> 
> Also happy to let the maker do so, obviously!


I'm also happy to share the pain.


I suppose I just would have gone back to the grinder with a 320 or a 500 grit belt though.


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## mengwong

Ok, can the next few gentlemen on the list confer and decide how they would like to respond to @ethompson – do you want to wait for a thinner knife or take the fatter knife earlier. Will the knife journey to Utah before Texas or Texas before Utah?


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## timebard

I'm not in a big hurry so if @ethompson or @MSicardCutlery want to thin it first I'm all for it.


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## ew_ut

Ok w me too if knife goes for thinning before my use


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## superworrier

Hmm I think I got confused. Delat, Timebard, and Malcom Johnson conferred so I think Malcolm Johnson had it next. So perhaps I have made an ordering error. Regardless, I've already dropped it off at the post office so not much can be done. I'll post my review shortly


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## jsph

if it does go back to mr sicard for thinning (and, i assume, sharpening), and assuming i'm right that he's located in canada (?), i'm wondering if it might not be too late to join the queue for this pass-around. i wanted to ask earlier, but i have no sharpening skills of my own (which seemed to be expected of each of us), and shipping across the us/canada border increases delays and fees for everyone. if there were another canadian destination i could send it to after trying the knife (?), and if it were being sent to me sharpened (either by another tester or by the maker himself, e.g., after thinning), then it would solve both of those concerns.

over the last few months i have been wanting to save up some money and inquire about having mr sicard possibly make either an aeb-l or 52100 gyuto (or possibly buying one of his pre-made sometimes listed here), and this would be a rare opportunity to hold something in my hand that could give just a basic sense of what that might be like. i have otherwise been not very active on the forum for a while, trying to tell myself to not buy any more knives, especially with the financial situation being as it has been lately for many of us, but window-shopping and seeing what has been coming from his workshop specifically, and his still-sane approach to pricing... well, it would be very neat to try something from a knife-maker like that.

it's ok if it's too late or there are other problems with adding me to the list, but with what i saw recently in the pass-around discussions, i thought i might finally ask.


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## mengwong

Sure, we can put you on the list – probably at the end of the queue, so the knife could go back to @MSicardCutlery for a touch-up if needed, and then to you, and then to a buddy of mine in Toronto who can bring it to me eventually.


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## mengwong

superworrier said:


> Hmm I think I got confused. Delat, Timebard, and Malcom Johnson conferred so I think Malcolm Johnson had it next. So perhaps I have made an ordering error. Regardless, I've already dropped it off at the post office so not much can be done. I'll post my review shortly


No worries, whoever receives it can send it to @ethompson after their turn, and then resume. I have updated the list to try to keep up.


mengwong said:


> Updated sequence with minor edits. Please check further downthread as this may not be the latest.


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## jsph

mengwong said:


> Sure, we can put you on the list – probably at the end of the queue, so the knife could go back to @MSicardCutlery for a touch-up if needed, and then to you, and then to a buddy of mine in Toronto who can bring it to me eventually.



thanks, mengwong. that's very kind of you. sounds good. much appreciated.


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## Malcolm Johnson

I have the knife and will definitely post some thought soon


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## mengwong

You got it


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## superworrier

Initial impressions:

Arrived in good shape. Packing (in a Carbon Knife Co blade guard) seemed secure. Nice finish with some vertical scratches on the blade face, maybe from an earlier passketeer.

Calipers confirmed it is indeed a bit thick BTE (0.4-0.5 as reported). Looking in my loupe, it looks like there are 2 sharpening angles going on. 

Sharpening:

I initially wanted to try this on some soft stones with a Bester 1200 (a stone I haven't mastered) to Rika 5k straight progression.

The Bester was able to cut it, but very very slowly. I sharpied the edge given I don't know what angles other sharpened at, and it seems like it was sharpened at a high (>15 degree) angle before, so it took some time to restore it to a more appropriate edge geometry (which is probably like 12-15 degrees). Again, the Bester really struggled here, but was able to do the job.

After a while, I kind of give up and go to the SG500. Given the work I've already done, it only really takes like 3 light edge-trailing strokes per side to form a burr. Deburring here was no problem.

From here, I go to the SP2k. Man, this knife feels so glassy on this stone. It wasn't a problem to form a burr, felt like a normal amount of strokes but sharpening was extremely glassy. Same with deburring, in which it feels like the stone was doing nothing.

Finally, a diamond pasted balsa wood strop could take of the burr easily and it's shaving hairs with a relatively consistent edge bevel.

My takeway here is that the softer stones seem to struggle and it's very glassy feeling. Compared to Myojin SG2, I would say it just feels much glassier but not necessarily harder to form a burr. Take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am not an expert. 


Cutting:

Cuts not bad at all considering the bevel thickness. Food release is good but could be attribute to the thick bevel. Tip is pretty thin despite thick edge.

Pics in following post


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## superworrier

Some on theme pics and on the way out pics


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## Malcolm Johnson

Initial impressions are decent overall. After hearing about the thickness bte I was obviously concerned. I was also a bit worried about the profile. I found that putting my index finger on the spine instead of a standard pinch grip made this profile work pretty naturally for me (and I lIke flat profiles, like… Yoshikane is my kinda profile) 

I was able to use this on some gesshin stones and was overall able to get a decent edge on it in a decent amount of time. I started on the 400, then the 1000 and was able to get an easy paper towel/tomato skin cutting edge after about 5 minutes. It does feel a bit glassy, but overall, it wasn’t very tough sharpening this knife. I was definitely expecting it to be more difficult to sharpen.

Overall performance (once I start using my index finger on the spine) was quite good overall. The thin tip helped with breaking down sirloins, horizontal onions cuts, and for detail work. It worked well processing green onions, sweet onions, tomatoes, garlic, and ginger which is what I used it for today.

It is definitely a whippy feeling blade with a decent amount of flex, but that parts of the deal with a thin knife like this. Fun little knife so far, even if it is very different than what I’m used to using. Will post more thoughts as I use it more


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## mengwong

Updated sequence with minor edits. Please check downthread as this may not be the latest. (Posts become immutable after a while.)

@SolidSnake03
@deltaplex
@Nagakin
@mrmoves92
@blokey
@Delat
@superworrier
@Malcolm Johnson
@timebard
@ew_ut
@ethompson
@Trouthead
@eltonmichael45
@Homechef
@sansho
@Hz_zzzzzz
@ptolemy
@ac3b00g12
@MSicardCutlery
@jsph
@mengwong


----------



## timebard

Got the PA knife from Malcolm last weekend, haven't had the chance to use it much but will post some thoughts and pass it on soon.


----------



## Trouthead

I'm up shortly. I've moved. Do I just deal with the different address with the participant above me?


----------



## mengwong

How about we do @timebard, @ew_ut, @ethompson for thinning, then @Trouthead. After that, @eltonmichael45 may or may not be around so if you can’t reach him then proceed to @Homechef.

@Trouthead please reach out to @ethompson directly to arrange shipping.


----------



## ethompson

Whatever order is fine by me


----------



## ptolemy

can I add my name to the hat? northeast USA. I do not plan to sharpen it though, mostly looking to try the knife/geometry for my cutting 'technique'


----------



## ch_br

This is a really cool pass around. Its been great to read everyone's experience and POV on the MC steel! Too bad it was already in Los Angeles


----------



## ethompson

Received the knife today in good order minus a very minor bent tip that is nothing significant at all. I’ll use it tomorrow and then make a call on potential thinning. Definitely seems like it could use a light thinning. Will post my full thoughts at the end of the week!


----------



## mengwong

If you would be willing to get your calipers out, I would be grateful to get a sense of the squeeze on this allegedly chonky boi, before and after.

Footnoting:





Thinning without losing much height, also surface finishing


Any good resources for the nuances of thinning knives of various grinds? My main concerns are practical and aesthetic. Obviously you need to be careful to maintain the blade profile but what about avoiding losing too much height on the knife? And how about surface finishing? I guess these kinds...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com










Some experts' opinion for choil shot analysis, please


[TLDR]: Please take a look at the choil shots and tell me if I'm right in the assumption that the two gyutos are thicker behind the edge which changes their cutting feel. Hi guys, I wonder why two new knives I got don't exactly perform as I was expecting. Please note that this is not a...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## ethompson

mengwong said:


> If you would be willing to get your calipers out, I would be grateful to get a sense of the squeeze on this allegedly chonky boi, before and after.
> 
> Footnoting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thinning without losing much height, also surface finishing
> 
> 
> Any good resources for the nuances of thinning knives of various grinds? My main concerns are practical and aesthetic. Obviously you need to be careful to maintain the blade profile but what about avoiding losing too much height on the knife? And how about surface finishing? I guess these kinds...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some experts' opinion for choil shot analysis, please
> 
> 
> [TLDR]: Please take a look at the choil shots and tell me if I'm right in the assumption that the two gyutos are thicker behind the edge which changes their cutting feel. Hi guys, I wonder why two new knives I got don't exactly perform as I was expecting. Please note that this is not a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com


 can do, captain! I also plan to time any thinning so people can get an idea on how much of a bear that is or isn’t


----------



## mengwong

ethompson said:


> I also plan to time any thinning so people can get an idea on how much of a bear that is or isn’t


Thanks, that would be valuable. The last hefty research I recall dates back to @inferno's milligrammetry – it would be nice to continue that, so beginner thinners (and polishers) know what they're in for.






testing abrasion rate (testing stone speed)


i wanted to see how much steel my some of my stones remove, so i tested that. test subject was a stainless clad aus-8 deba that i had done some destructive tests with. i did 300 "cycles" on each stone and then simply weighed the blade inbetween. 1 cycle = 1 forward and 1 backward stroke. the...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





I started thinking about speed differently when I re-based to units of volume/mass of steel – blade length * bevel height * thinning reduction, divided by 2 to approximate a triangle, gives you v/v. Multiply by 8 mg / cubic mm to get @inferno's w/w.

With your timings we'll be able to estimate mg/minute for a given stone, so we can quantify the estimates around "thinning this beast, with this steel, by this much, on this stone, takes this long."


----------



## MSicardCutlery

ethompson said:


> can do, captain! I also plan to time any thinning so people can get an idea on how much of a bear that is or isn’t


Do you have diamond stones/plates for thinning?


----------



## ethompson

MSicardCutlery said:


> Do you have diamond stones/plates for thinning?


I’ve got diamond plates, but i don’t think those are going to be worth the time refinishing here. There really isn’t much metal that needs to be moved so I’ll give it a shot with conventional stones first.


----------



## blokey

ethompson said:


> I’ve got diamond plates, but i don’t think those are going to be worth the time refinishing here. There really isn’t much metal that needs to be moved so I’ll give it a shot with conventional stones first.


You are in for a treat


----------



## timebard

I had it last, apologies for both the slowdown in keeping it moving and posting impressions. Between work/family obligations and a case of COVID I didn't have a lot of time to play with it.

Overall impressions - it's been a minute since I've used a thin 210 gyuto but the overall design had me thinking I need to revisit that size. While thinner than I go for typically, the dimensions and profile were really nice and user friendly. The craftsmanship, while understated, was well executed, especially at MSicard's price point. 

It came to me fairly dull by my standards. I took it to a SP2k and made little progress on raising a burr. The stone felt like it was doing little or nothing. In a not-very-well considered move, I jumped to my new Belgian Blue to see if it would cut any better; it did provide more tactile feedback and I was able to freshen up the edge a bit, although it was by no means fully sharpened. I should note that most of my sharpening experience is with lower alloy steels (Hitachi carbons and equivalent, ginsan, AEBL, at worst SLD and VG10).

I did some test cuts and the thickness behind the edge and my incomplete sharpening job were very apparent. It did a barely adequate job dicing an onion and needed quite a bit of force to go through carrot and apples. I intended to take it to a 1000 grit stone and test it with a proper edge but then life got in the way...

I want to emphasize that while the knife I tried did not perform acceptably by my standards, it was in no way a fair trial of @MSicardCutlery 's work--between the accumulated thickness behind the edge and my half-assed sharpening job, I'm convinced it was not representative of the original knife or its maker's skills. I will say it gives me a bit of pause w/r/t ordering another MagnaCut gyuto with my current stone lineup, as I've generally found my SP2k to work well on less friendly stainless steels. But as others have had success sharpening it with standard stones, it may just reflect needing to step up my skills with less forgiving steels. I'm definitely curious to hear @ethompson 's experience.

Thanks again to @mengwong and @MSicardCutlery for making this passaround happen. Wish I had more useful feedback to offer but happy to have been part of it all the same and looking forward to others' thoughts.


----------



## mengwong

Thank you! I appreciate the write-up. Wear resistance is a thing, and we are all curious to experience it first-hand. Do you recall how many cycles you sharpened for? Or maybe an estimate of the time on stone?


----------



## timebard

mengwong said:


> Thank you! I appreciate the write-up. Wear resistance is a thing, and we are all curious to experience it first-hand. Do you recall how many cycles you sharpened for? Or maybe an estimate of the time on stone?


It's been a couple weeks but probably 10 minutes or less between the two stones? I did raise more slurry and use more pressure than I typically would on the BBW but nothing excessive.


----------



## mengwong

It’s a floor wax _and_ a dessert topping!

It’s a knife _and_ a stone flattener!!


----------



## jwthaparc

This is why. People recommend diamonds or cbd for steels with mc carbide.

(Edit: Cbn)


----------



## esoo

jwthaparc said:


> This is why. People recommend diamonds or cbd for steels with mc carbide.



I guess the cbd is to deal with the pain of having to work a knife on the stone for hours?


----------



## Barmoley

It is sort of like cutting down a large hardwood tree with a hand saw and complaining that it takes too long and is painful. Yeah, it can be done, but don't be surprised when it is not easy. MagnaCut has enough MC carbides where conventional stones don't work as well especially when going higher in grid. SiC based stones still have a decent chance of working, but diamonds and CBN make it so much easier and the results are so much better.


----------



## jwthaparc

Yeah. I dont feel it gives the knife a decent shake having people sharpen with these 2k grit aluminum oxide stones. Especially ones that dont easily release abrasive.

I saw thinning mentioned in this. I will say, you really wont have issues using non diamond stones for the low grit work. Provided you use a stone that is able to slurry. Thats how i do the final shaping on my knives to avoid overheating them. I even did the 10v honesukis that way.

I just recommend having a way to polish it after that.


----------



## ethompson

Once again, thank you to @mengwong for sacrificing your knife on the alter of knowledge for allowing so many in this community to experience a newer maker's work and trial a lauded steel! This will be the first of a three part review covering my initial impressions, experience thinning & sharpening the knife, and final thoughts after more extensive use. Before we get into it, I'd also like to thank @MSicardCutlery for making the knife and engaging with this pass around thread!

*Part 1: Initial Impressions*

I'll lead with saying that there are a lot of things about this knife that have nothing to do with the blade itself and everything to do with personal preference. I like my gyutos 260mm+ and on the heavier side. I also primarily use pull and push cuts and therefore prefer a relatively flat to neutral profile. I also gravitate towards simple carbon steels clad in soft iron. In many ways then, this knife is pretty far from what I'd spec for myself. Keep that in mind as your read my review. That said, I have no problem using curvier profiles like this and do keep lasers around because they can be fun to use from time to time. I am also very excited to see how Magnacut holds up to the hype. I think I've promised @Troopah_Knives I'd try one of these fancy modern steels in at least 2 threads and on Instagram, so here it goes.

Right out of the box things seem great. The handle is supremely comfortable. Probably the best proportioned and tapered wa handle I've come across. The choil and spine are nicely rounded and the satin finish is superb. I cannot (yet...) imagine how long getting that uniform finish took on a wear resistant steel like this. Perhaps the handle install could be a hair tighter, but this is still better than pretty much any Japanese knife I've bought other than high end single bevels. On first glance the grind seems consistent less two minor low spots about 2/3 up the blade from the heel and slightly asymmetric with a right handed bias. The bevel looks fairly broad, but looking at the tip and choil the bevel isn't noticeably fat compared to the area just behind the edge. The tip is slightly bent as a few previous reviewers have mentioned. A quick measure with the ruler shows the knife has lost ~1mm height on its journey so far.

I used this knife at work for a day to get a feel for it. Before taking it in I tested the edge and decided it needed a touch up. On the same day, I got a lovely BBW / Coti in from @cotedupy and decided to use the BBW for a quick sharpening. Had no issues getting the bevel back to easily slicing magazine paper, but didn't quite manage something that would pop hairs with this 2 minute exercise. I did find sharpening to be slower than my simple carbons, but not unduly challenging. Feedback reminded me of a Takagi honyaki which is aogami of some flavor (@refcast) - that is to say, a little glassy but nice overall.

Pretty quickly it became apparent to me that this knife is thinking thicker* in the bottom 20mm than I find desirable. While release is better than you'd expect for a knife this size, I don't think that gain is worth what is traded off with the convexity starting so low on the blade. The knife lacks the mass necessary to help carry it through dense product so cutting through denser items actually becomes a bit of a chore. The right handed bias also became obvious in the form of steering. While obviously extensive sharpening over the past few months without any thinning haven't helped, I think the reality is that the knife needs to be quite a bit thinner to match performance expectations. Sadly my calipers have walked off just as I need them, but a visual inspection has this knife at 15mm up from the edge being thicker than my Z-Kramer, Mazaki, and even Kato. I think easing that low down convexity will help dramatically here. The steel, however, seemed to exceed my expectations. The last task I performed was halving a case (40#) of limes and the edge came away still able to bite into paper. None of my simple carbons could dream of that. The profile is curvier than I'm used to, but I had no issues adjusting and my push and pull cuts came out without accordian-ing. Despite appearances, I think this knife is slightly less curvy in use than a Z-Kramer or Victorinox. Balance felt great and the knife mannered naturally across the board.

In part 2 I will be thinning out the knife and documenting my experience there. I think this is going to be a game-changer and actually not terribly labor intensive. Despite my moaning and groaning in the paragraph above. There is a lot that this knife gets right right off the bat and the reality is that with thin stock and lasers the difference between ghosting and wedging isn't great at all.


----------



## ethompson

*Part 2: Thinning & Sharpening*

Sorry for the delay, for a couple reasons this took me longer to get around to finishing than anticipated. Obviously the knife made its way to me with multiple people, myself included, noting that it could use a thinning to be at its best. I, for better or worse, volunteered to tackle some of this work. Having now finished that…

Humble pie? Eaten. Foot? In Mouth. This stuff is no joke y’all. Coarse traditional stones will still move metal, but slowly. I used a Debado 180, Shapton Glass 220, and Gesshin 220 and all managed to cut the steel. But anything at or above 400-500 grit is really a losing battle for thinning on Magnacut. I wasn’t able to capture all the data I’d hoped, but this felt about three times as slow to work with as the shirogami honyaki I am also working on. That in turn is about 3 times slower to work with than an iron / simple steel san mai. While I’d get through the work eventually with my current setup, I decided to bring in reinforcements and got some resin-based diamond stones from a very nice member here. These dramatically sped up the rate of abrasion, bringing it close to what I’d expect for a fully hardened mono blade.

As for the thinning work itself, I didn’t take it as thin as I maybe would if this was a personal knife. 1) I didn’t want to push things too far and accidentally make a fragile edges, 2) I am constrained on time and this type of metal removal on Magnacut would definitely be best done with belts and a grinder, & 3) I do think that with a freshly zeroed edge the balance of cutting / release is improved enough that I can see the maker’s original vision for this one. Removed about 3.5g in all, not a crazy amount but not insignificant either. I was not able to get the tip fully straightened. I was concerned about snapping it off and ended up getting it maybe 50% fixed before deciding to leave it. I pushed the shoulder up several mm and made it a little rounder. I also ground the edge down to zero once I made it into the 1k grit territory. More than the thinning I think, taking the edge back to zero before sharpening made a large difference in the cut feeling. Because of the bent tip I didn’t thin that out as much as I’d like, so it still doesn’t ghost through onions on vertical slices. That said, it also no longer wedges. Having put this to the stones the grind consistency is quite good with only two inconsequential low spots discovered. Very nice work @MSicardCutlery!

Before taking the edge to zero, I played around with sharpening so I could get an idea of progression and what needed to be done without wiping out my thinning work right behind the edge. Sharpening Magnacut with traditional stones SIC or AIO isn’t something I could in good conscience recommend. Above 500 grit or so I think these stones are painfully slow at best and overall useless at worst. I consider myself a decent sharpener and could not achieve a clean apex off a Shapton Glass 2k even with a diamond loaded leather strop to aid burr removal. Naturals with this type of steel is a waste of time and stone. The exception being my BBW which did manage to work fairly well, better than SG for sure. Guess those garnets can work magic. On the new diamond stones things improved, though the going was slower than I’d hoped still. That said, still well within the realm of expected sharpening time.

In summary, I cannot in good conscience recommend a Magnacut blade to anyone who doesn’t have or isn’t willing to purchase diamond stones. Ongoing maintenance and sharpening without diamonds is a losing prospect IMO. This is a design feature of the steel and not a flaw, you do get something for this trade off, which I’ll touch on in part 3.

I’d hoped to redo the finish, but I think it best for me to use the knife today and tomorrow and send it on its way Friday. Subsequent users - Matt’s original hairline finish was superb, sorry I messed it up. I think the performance is now improved, but probably could be pushed further with more thinning.


----------



## ethompson

*Part 3: Final Thoughts*

Having now used the knife, thinning & sharpened it extensively, and now used it again for a few days I’m ready to share my final thoughts Before diving in, my thanks again to @mengwong and @MSicardCutlery for the opportunity!

The blade itself is simple, but well thought out and quite practical. Balances great, excellent F&F, and a natural feel in terms of profile and grind. As the now dead horse says, the grind came a little thick and still is maybe still thicker than I’d prefer. But the balance of release, durability, and thinness is within the realm of normal to my use. In a shared kitchen I’d comfortably had this knife to a KKF’r or normie alike without fear of disappointment or damage. The profile is maybe curvier than I’d spec, but it performs well with push and pull cuts and excels at guillotine and glide. No complaints there. This is a good all rounder that doesn’t excel at any one thing, but can easily handle every task thrown at it.

The steel is maybe the thing I was most excited to try. Having now messed with it extensively, Im comfortable saying it is a different animal than the simple carbons I am used to. I think diamonds or CBN is a fundamental requirement for the long term use of this steel. I consider myself a proficient sharpener and none of my synthetic or natural stones (with the exception of the BBW / Coti) were capable of forming a satisfactory apex in my use. Once I made the switch to diamond stones I had few issues. The steel can take a very keen edge, it just requires the correct tools. For many, myself very much included, this is a very significant barrier to entry. That said, the edge retention and corrosion resistance of this steel are extremely impressive. I threw a laundry list of edge killing tasks at this knife (citrus, tomatoes, dicing a ton of hot chicken on poly boards, etc.) and made no attempts to baby the edge or prevent patination. After two days the edge is still crisp enough to easily slice paper and bite into tomato skin reasonably well. No carbon I have tried can come close to this type of performance. I am convinced that, objectively, Magnacut and it’s high allow cousins, is a superior knife steel to something like Shirogami. It is harder to sharpen, painful to thin, and less pleasant on stones than simple carbon. And ultimately, as a J-Nat enthusiast, incompatibility with those stones is probably a deal killer for me. I openly acknowledge that I get more enjoyment out of the objectively worse steel.

I’m actually thinking of picking one of these up for my father-in-law, an excellent cook with no interest in knives beyond having a tool to make things smaller. I figure a few times a year when then I could bring a diamond stone and sharpen it up and the edge will probably hold until I’m back. No dishwasher, but also doesn’t need any babying like a simple carbon would. Much better performance than what he is used to. Between the overall quality and the steel, I think @MSicardCutlery is pricing these extremely fairly and offering a superior value proposition. No one in the market for this type of thing should have any qualms.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

ethompson said:


> Pretty quickly it became apparent to me that this knife is thinking in the bottom 20mm than I find desirable.


what was it thinking down there in the bottom 20mm?


----------



## blokey

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> what was it thinking down there in the bottom 20mm?


"64.5"


----------



## mengwong

So, I have here a knife which is approximately 0.9mm at 5mm behind the edge. To demonstrate solidarity I am planning to thin it on stones: SG220 etc. I think I have enough thickness here that I can plan on having a proper hira and shinogi when I’m done, with a bit of hamaguri convexing. Does that make sense? First time thinning this much.


----------



## jwthaparc

mengwong said:


> So, I have here a knife which is approximately 0.9mm at 5mm behind the edge. To demonstrate solidarity I am planning to thin it on stones: SG220 etc. I think I have enough thickness here that I can plan on having a proper hira and shinogi when I’m done, with a bit of hamaguri convexing. Does that make sense? First time thinning this much.


Shatpon glass may not release enough abrasive. If its the magnacut blade Though idk, ive only used shapton pro.

Even. If it doesnt, it will still work. Just slower.


----------



## ethompson

Just updated my thoughts in part 2, part 3 to come tomorrow evening or Friday morning.


----------



## Delat

ethompson said:


> *Part 2: Thinning & Sharpening*
> 
> Sharpening Magnacut with traditional stones SIC or AIO isn’t something, I could in good conscience recommend. Above 500 grit or so I think these stones are painfully slow at best and overall useless at worst. I consider myself a decent sharpener and could not achieve a clean apex off a Shapton Glass 2k even with a diamond loaded leather strop to aid burr removal.



You made me feel much better after my total failure to get a decent edge with an SG4000.


----------



## ian

Polishing hard Magnacut is what they do in the 5th circle of hell, I hear.


----------



## mengwong

ethompson said:


> I’d hoped to redo the finish, but I think it best for me to use the knife today and tomorrow and send it on its way Friday.


Hey man, you’re making some really useful discoveries here… if the altar of polishing science so demands, please feel free to hold on to the knife for longer. Everybody will understand if you need more time to finish.


----------



## ian

mengwong said:


> Hey man, you’re making some really useful discoveries here… if the altar of polishing science so demands, please feel free to hold on to the knife for longer. Everybody will understand if you need more time to finish.



Heh, either you’re misreading the subtext, or this is a quality joke. I approve.


----------



## MSicardCutlery

ian said:


> Polishing hard Magnacut is what they do in the 5th circle of hell, I hear.


I took it to a 1200 grit hand finish once......never....ever.....again.....


----------



## NotAddictedYet

@ethompson Thank you for sharing. After what you experienced, what specific stones would you recommended for thinning and sharpening magnacut?


----------



## ethompson

NotAddictedYet said:


> @ethompson Thank you for sharing. After what you experienced, what specific stones would you recommended for thinning and sharpening magnacut?


At the recommendation and help of @SolidSnake03 I got a set of the Nano Hone diamond resin plates. The feel is odd, but I the speed and consistency is great for thinning work. Very, very strange feedback in sharpening, but they got the job done. For sharpening any diamond or CBN stone should do the trick I imagine.


----------



## M1k3

MSicardCutlery said:


> I took it to a 1200 grit hand finish once......never....ever.....again.....


🫶 400 grit finish


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

ethompson said:


> Just updated my thoughts in part 2, part 3 to come tomorrow evening or Friday morning.



Great observations. Thank you for taking the time!


----------



## timebard

ethompson said:


> Just updated my thoughts in part 2, part 3 to come tomorrow evening or Friday morning.


Thanks for the detailed writeup... I feel a lot better about my bad results earlier.

I am interested to hear that you had some success (or not a complete failure anyway) with a Belgian Blue. I had the thought that the garnets may be hard enough to be useful and in terms of tactile feedback I got sense it was making some progress. Would you use one as a finisher/maintenance stone on MagnaCut or still recommend a high grit diamond stone?


----------



## ethompson

timebard said:


> Thanks for the detailed writeup... I feel a lot better about my bad results earlier.
> 
> I am interested to hear that you had some success (or not a complete failure anyway) with a Belgian Blue. I had the thought that the garnets may be hard enough to be useful and in terms of tactile feedback I got sense it was making some progress. Would you use one as a finisher/maintenance stone on MagnaCut or still recommend a high grit diamond stone?


With a little forced slurry, I felt like I was making slow, but real progress with the Belgian Blue in terms of refining the bevel. I think it could be happily used a maintenance stone or finisher. I would still prefer a diamond stone for that task, however.


----------



## mengwong

ian said:


> Heh, either you’re misreading the subtext, or this is a quality joke. I approve.


Nobody expected it to stay this hard for this long, is all I’m saying.


----------



## tostadas

mengwong said:


> Nobody expected it to stay this hard for this long, is all I’m saying.


If it lasts more than 6 hours, you're supposed to call a doctor.


----------



## mengwong

Doctor: “did you remember to lock your wrists?”


----------



## ethompson

Part 3 updated and I'll box this one up tonight!


----------



## sansho

nice review, @ethompson 

maybe a new breed of synthetic 'play stone' is needed
imagine relatively soft brick that gets real muddy. filled with a mixed range of fine cBN particles... and geosmin.


----------



## ptolemy

I wonder how those chinese DMD resis diamond stones are on it


----------



## mengwong

Updated sequence with minor edits. Please check downthread as this may not be the latest. (Posts become immutable after a while.)

SolidSnake03
deltaplex
Nagakin
mrmoves92
blokey
Delat
superworrier
Malcolm Johnson
timebard
ethompson
@ew_ut
@Trouthead
@Homechef
@sansho
@Hz_zzzzzz
@ptolemy
@MSicardCutlery
@jsph
@mengwong


----------



## ethompson

@mengwong, knife actually came to me before @ew_ut and was planning to send there next if that’s okay


----------



## mengwong

Sure, I will edit


----------



## zizirex

Funny, I have his Magnacut, yet I still have to make a nice edge on my Suita. it does hold an edge on light kitchen works, but it's not super hard to sharpen and mine is a workhorse ground.


----------



## mengwong

Delat said:


> You made me feel much better after my total failure to get a decent edge with an SG4000.



Digging more into this:



> Sharpening a carbon steel knife, we can get a sharp edge even off #200 grit. However, a knife made of wear-resistant alloys, we have to apex on #1000, and then polish and polish through a sequence of progressively finer diamonds/CBN; you cannot get a lasting sharp edge on these premium steels off the #1000 - you need a finer grit than that, much finer.





> If you don’t have coarse diamond or CBN, it is OK to grind bevels of your wear-resistant blade with a coarse silicon carbide abrasive; however, setting the edge apex and honing must be done with diamonds/CBN for the lasting sharp edge. From the #1000 and finer must be diamonds or CBN. Honing the wear-resistant edge with conventional compounds, including fine ceramic hones, is the main cause of them dulling early – if you use them on your high-end knife, it may perform even worse than a mainstream knife.





> See our research “Edge Rolling in High Vanadium Knives Sharpened with Aluminium Oxide versus CBN/Diamond” in the Edge Stability Testing section on our website.





http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Sharpening_High_Vanadium_Knives.pdf


----------



## blokey

mengwong said:


> Digging more into this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Sharpening_High_Vanadium_Knives.pdf


This doesn’t seem to be a very controlled test, no normalized hardness or edge geometry, very different knives from different brands. Tho the conclusion is right, SG4000 is a silicone carbide stone which is softer than MC carbide, which just doesn’t do it.


----------



## Barmoley

mengwong said:


> Sharpening a carbon steel knife, we can get a sharp edge even off #200 grit. However, a knife made of wear-resistant alloys, we have to apex on #1000, and then polish and polish through a sequence of progressively finer diamonds/CBN; *you cannot get a lasting sharp edge on these premium steels off the #1000* - you need a finer grit than that, much finer.


This is simply wrong as can be seen from all of Larrin's testing, Shawn's testing and many others that test cutting on rope, cardboard, etc. Most use relatively coarse finish 400-600 grit and clearly show longer lasting edges on high wear resistant steels. 

They also claim that it is a rolling test, so it is odd not to standardized for hardness, since it seems that strength/hardness would be the main contributing factor in such a test, assuming same geometry of course. The assumption is also that the blunting is from plastic deformation, rolling, but how do they determine this is what caused blunting and not microchipping for example, they don't indicate that they actually looked at the edge under a microscope.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Barmoley said:


> This is simply wrong as can be seen from all of Larrin's testing, Shawn's testing and many others that test cutting on rope, cardboard, etc. Most use relatively coarse finish 400-600 grit and clearly show longer lasting edges on high wear resistant steels.
> 
> They also claim that it is a rolling test, so it is odd not to standardized for hardness, since it seems that strength/hardness would be the main contributing factor in such a test, assuming same geometry of course. The assumption is also that the blunting is from plastic deformation, rolling, but how do they determine this is what caused blunting and not microchipping for example, they don't indicate that they actually looked at the edge under a microscope.



Agreed. My K390 cardboard slayer never goes above 600 and often stays at 300.


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## jedy617

I sharpen all my folders (s90v, s30v, s45v, k390, magnacut, etc), to 1500 on venev diamond. going much past that usually feels like a waste in my experience


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## Trouthead

Just received the magna cut pass around. Beautiful knife and I assume it has laser potential, but not now, too dull. I will sharpen with either some older Norton water stones or Shapton's. Not sure what the deal is with the tip but it looks like it was a bit bent at one point. So far I tried cutting half an onion. Did it but it should have been easier. More reports to come. Will try some meat before I sharpen. Who gets it next?


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## Trouthead

As of today, I have decided not to try to sharpen. I don't have any diamond stones and I fear I might just make it duller rather than sharper. After using it for the last few days on a variety of kitchen task, I would say that it cuts well, but I would either like it sharper or thinner behind the edge. I like the handle without a ferrule, and it is very large and fits my big mitts well. I have trimmer meat, cut onions, and mushrooms, and it was fine but its initial cut tended not to bite into softer foods. tI will cut a soft bread bun without the need for a serrated bread knife. With a variety of knives for a variety of task, I still end up most times using the same knife for all the cutting tasks for a meal. I like this knife, but wonder about the possible premium price.


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## MSicardCutlery

Trouthead said:


> I like this knife, but wonder about the possible premium price.


I'm in no way offended by this statement, but $360 U.S, delivered is...probably at least 25% lower than the nearest alternative in MagnaCut. Especially for a hand finished blade. Hobbyists excluded.


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## timebard

MSicardCutlery said:


> I'm in no way offended by this statement, but $360 U.S, delivered is...probably at least 25% lower than the nearest alternative in MagnaCut. Especially for a hand finished blade. Hobbyists excluded.


This certainly lines up with what I've seen elsewhere on the market. Some makers who are already at a higher price point may have a small percent premium for MagnaCut vs other steels but not in absolute terms.

Matt, I don't mean to pry too much (feel free to answer as much or little as you like) but I'm curious - how much of the cost premium is the steel itself vs. abrasives vs. labor costs?


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## ptolemy

Trouthead said:


> As of today, I have decided not to try to sharpen. I don't have any diamond stones and I fear I might just make it duller rather than sharper. After using it for the last few days on a variety of kitchen task, I would say that it cuts well, but I would either like it sharper or thinner behind the edge. I like the handle without a ferrule, and it is very large and fits my big mitts well. I have trimmer meat, cut onions, and mushrooms, and it was fine but its initial cut tended not to bite into softer foods. tI will cut a soft bread bun without the need for a serrated bread knife. With a variety of knives for a variety of task, I still end up most times using the same knife for all the cutting tasks for a meal. I like this knife, but wonder about the possible premium price.



I think you nailed a few points why I was interested in trying it as well... One does it need thinning? I think that's is one of the most important or controversial questions, because without say 4 versions of the same knife with different thickness, I think it's very hard to answer. How easy it is to sharpen. I have diamond stones, but it's def something I fear to try, not because it won't work, but because I may ruin it, heh


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## mengwong

Don’t worry about ruining it, we can fix it. Even the tip can bend back, or just be deleted


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## ptolemy

MSicardCutlery said:


> timebard said:
> 
> 
> 
> This certainly lines up with what I've seen elsewhere on the market. Some makers who are already at a higher price point may have a small percent premium for MagnaCut vs other steels but not in absolute terms.
> 
> Matt, I don't mean to pry too much (feel free to answer as much or little as you like) but I'm curious - how much of the cost premium is the steel itself vs. abrasives vs. labor costs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSicardCutlery said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in no way offended by this statement, but $360 U.S, delivered is...probably at least 25% lower than the nearest alternative in MagnaCut. Especially for a hand finished blade. Hobbyists excluded.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I feel like that question is not fair on a few levels. For once, we rarely pay for knives the cost of labor, steel, materials... Most of it tied to person's 'brand', perceived value, perceived performance, etc... so even if Matt's cost is $200 and he is asking for $360, it makes no difference between a different maker's cost maybe same, but because their perceived brand and value are lower, they can sell for $250 or higher, they can ask $1000. The perceived value obv has to do with resale value, exclusivity, demand, how busy maker is, etc etc etc

I had a wonderful DT knife that I bought from him directly. I never used it, but wanted to support the maker. 2 years later, I had a hard to sell knife that I wanted to sell, and it wouldnt sell, but I paired it with a DT and someone bought it. To me (and obv others) it means that DT has a great resale value, so if we're using this example, DT may have exactly the same cost of material and steel in it, and labor , same same amount of hrs, but because his brand (and completely justified) is much more well known, he can ask for a lot more $ for it. And, he will get it, because anyone can sell his knife for same $ fairly easily.


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## M1k3

mengwong said:


> Don’t worry about ruining it, we can fix it. Even the tip can bend back, or just be deleted


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## mengwong

Dremel vs MagnaCut: Showdown 2023, Madison Square Garden


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## MSicardCutlery

timebard said:


> This certainly lines up with what I've seen elsewhere on the market. Some makers who are already at a higher price point may have a small percent premium for MagnaCut vs other steels but not in absolute terms.
> 
> Matt, I don't mean to pry too much (feel free to answer as much or little as you like) but I'm curious - how much of the cost premium is the steel itself vs. abrasives vs. labor costs?


There are a ton of variables. Labour is a pretty broad set of tasks too. I tend not to measure it that way.

The PM steels tend to be very expensive, about 4x-7x the price from that an equivalent piece of say 52100 or AEB-L, and are much harder to grind, easily double or triple for something like CPM-D2 or MagnaCut, more than that for Z-Wear, and more still for M4...(S90V and 10V frankly scare me). Plus they're harder to sharpen. Another variable is whether the knife was made as part of a batch or a one off. It's amazing how much time you save working in batches.

I really try not to think about my labour costs that much, but some of the worst "hourlys" I've had doing this, would have been on my most expensive customs. There's a lot more involved with them, and mistakes happen, and those don't/can't get downloaded to you guys. Not to mention times, especially when I was newer to this, where I would totally underestimate the work involved. It happens less so these days, but when I'm doing something that's new to me, or that I haven't done in a while, it's easy to lowball it.

Something that doesn't really apply to me, because I work in my garage and basement, is facility costs. In areas where you'd be renting a lot in an industrial park, that would really chew into your bottom line. I suspect this is a big part of the cost of some of the more popular European makers.

Advertising too, and time spent advertising/listing is another myer that you can't really equate nicely into cost per product sold. Not at these volumes at least.

For customs, time spent discussing the build details. I never factor that in, but you know, sometimes it's a few hours over a week. Plus drafting and designing time, which I've gotten way better at, but took much longer early on.

Then finally there's the value of labour and accumulated skill. Forging, forge welding, grinding, sharpening, knowing how to work with each individual steel, and there are marked differences....the differences between white and blue are laughable compared to carbon steels and high alloy/stainlesses. Developing an eye for "straight" and symmetrical. A sense of proportionality and so on. Polishing hamons is a big one too.

I know that's a really long winded way of not giving an answer, but I'm just trying to illustrate the complexity of the situation. A lot of the steps involved just don't occur to people intuitively.

I can say that much of what makes up the value of the priciest brands, tends to be brand related, not material, or labour, the markups look severe to me, but also as far as independent makers are concerned, without knowing the sum total of the expenses they have in order to sustain themselves, judgments are of little value.

I don't know that most makers charge a premium for new steels. I never have, but when steels are new, and production volumes are low, the costs tend to be higher just from the mills. For instance, when I first started using MagnaCut, so less than a year ago now, perhaps 8 months, it was $75/linear foot for 2"x3/32 wide stock. The price has come down to around 60$, which is really nice, (though that still doesn't factor in taxes and delivery costs) and that puts it within about $10 of the other CPM steels. I can't imagine what is was 2 years ago when it came out. Apex Ultra is over 3x the price of 52100 right now too.


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## HumbleHomeCook




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