# Cheap coarse stones recommendations (Naniwa Lobster/Traditional?)



## Bonzo (Apr 6, 2021)

Hi guys, this is my first thread after registering a few months ago and in short, I'm looking for some cheap rough stones for my softer stainless steel knives. Currently, I have Naniwa Pro 800 and 3000 as well as an SG 6000 HC. I'm a home cook and I don't sharpen that often, I mostly finish my carbons on the 3k and rest on the 800. I also have a Naniwa 1k Super which I don't really use at all. For maintenance, I use strops with green and grey compounds, respectively. I'm having trouble raising the burr on my Global and Wusthofs with the 800 and honestly, it's really frustrating especially since they're smaller petty/paring knives and I find it harder to hold a steady angle as opposed to my larger knives. I think - actually, I'm sure, they also need thinning.

I was thinking of getting a coarser stone for the SS knives as well as for thinning my better knives once the time comes. I really like my Naniwas and my first thought was to get a Naniwa Pro 400, but I'm not sure if it will be usable for thinning and I'd like to avoid spending 50€ on a stone only to be used on crappy steel (also, my wife uses them too, I think you get the idea..).

Recently I discovered *Naniwa Traditional* and *Lobster *stones with 220 grit on fine-tools.com and they seem like a good deal (around 25€ before shipping each). I was thinking about the 220 grit ones as I'm only looking to get a decent edge on the Wusthofs as quickly as possible and maybe take them to 800 if needed. I couldn't find much information about them so I was wondering if anyone here used them?

Another one I'm considering is the King 300 but I'm confused about the writing on the fine-tools.com listing "_Use this stone for carbon steel blades only. Alloyed steel will clog up the sharpening surface."..._

TLDR;
I need a (cheap) coarse stone both for thinning and softer steel knives - is Naniwa Traditional/Lobster any good?

Thanks.


----------



## Bart.s (Apr 6, 2021)

I'm following. I have thinned a Kurosaki bunka this weekend, on a Skerper 220, which is a kniveandtools housebrand, but basically a pink Naniwa traditional 220. Bought is some time ago and was my first time using it.

It started to glaze after 15 minutes or so and would hardly cut anymore. Tried to resurface it a couple of times with an Atoma 140, but I didn't wanted to ruin a €85 Atoma for a €22,50 stone. So would not recommend it and buy something better. Interested in what the forum will recommend, cause I'm also on the hunt for a ~220 grit stone .

I have a NP400, while it is good for sharpening a very dull knife, I wouldn't use it for heavy thinning, too slow for that.


----------



## inferno (Apr 6, 2021)

i like the shapton pro 220 and 120. cheap and fast. 

a cheap way of flattening these are with silicon carbide powder. 60 grit.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 6, 2021)

I can help a little with my experience.

Naniwa Professionell / Chosera 400 - too slow for stainless steel thinning!

Naniwa Traditional 220 - don't buy it! The stone behaves exactly as @Bart.s described, I use mine as a doorstop!

King 300 - great for carbon steel, for stainless steels the description from fine-tools.com is correct.

Naniwa Lobster - I don't know him, but if I've learned something about synthetic stones then this is it: You get what you paid for ..

My advice: stick with well-known stones of good quality, for example Shapton, Nano Hone, Sigma Select II, Imanishi Pink Bridge, etc.

Buy cheap and pay twice ... not a good idea. Coarse stones are important, if you want to save money then you save at the wrong end ...


----------



## Bonzo (Apr 6, 2021)

Thank you all for your input. I was considering Shapton lower grits but can't find any in Europe and they're priced almost like the Naniwa Pros anyway.
A new train of thought is getting a Naniwa 400 for sharpening and using sandpaper for thinning. In the long run, I'd be looking at King 300, seems the reviews are uniformly positive about that one. Btw, that Imanishi looks like a lot of stone for a reasonable price...


----------



## inferno (Apr 6, 2021)

fine tools have the pro shaptons, dictum have the glass series. knivesandtools i think have both series.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 6, 2021)

Bonzo said:


> Shapton lower grits


fine-tools.com

knivesandtools.de or .eu

japan-messer-shop.de

dictum.com


----------



## inferno (Apr 6, 2021)

the pink bricks wear very fast supposedly. the green silicon carbide like the kings also wear fast. the green kings are quite cheap though.


----------



## Bart.s (Apr 6, 2021)

Pink Brick

Cheapest I could find in Europe.


----------



## Bonzo (Apr 6, 2021)

Well, I stand corrected. I could've sworn I saw 320 as the lowest Shapton grit available in EU stores.


----------



## Bonzo (Apr 6, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> Pink Brick
> 
> Cheapest I could find in Europe.


That's actually a pretty good price. The fine tools might be a better value at 50 mm thickness though, hm...


----------



## inferno (Apr 6, 2021)

you will probably be happier with a shapton i guess.


----------



## Bart.s (Apr 6, 2021)

Bonzo said:


> That's actually a pretty good price. The fine tools might be a better value at 50 mm thickness though, hm...



You wanted cheap


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Apr 6, 2021)

Have you tried sandpaper? My favorite is "3M Pro Grade Precision" with "No-Slip Grip" and "Cubitron II grit." It works better than several cheap stones I tried. Black silicon carbide wet/dry paper also works, but it doesn't last as long and it slips around so you have to tack it down somehow.

Sandpaper avoids the need to flatten coarse stones. If you don't already have the means for that it could be a significant additional expense.


----------



## Bonzo (Apr 6, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> Have you tried sandpaper? My favorite is "3M Pro Grade" with "Non-Slip backing" and "Cubitron II grit." It works better than several cheap stones I tried. Black silicon carbide wet/dry paper also works, but it doesn't last as long and it slips around so you have to tack it down somehow.
> 
> Sandpaper avoids the need to flatten coarse stones. If you don't already have the means for that it could be a significant additional expense.


Yes, I actually sharpened my Wusthofs on a 400 grit 3M sandpaper, after getting frustrated with the amount of time I spent on my Naniwa for an edge that lasts maybe a week! I can find regular sandpaper locally, but not sure about the "non-slip". Actually, the reason I was looking for a stone is to make thing more convenient than using the slipping sandpaper. It might be worth further exploring that option before purchasing a stone.


----------



## inferno (Apr 6, 2021)

the good thing with a stone is that you use them with water. paper is best used dry. it creates lots of magnetic dust.


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Apr 6, 2021)

In my opinion 400 paper is too fine for thinning or heavy bevel work.

This is the type of paper I am using, and I use it WET, no dust made.


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Apr 6, 2021)

inferno said:


> the good thing with a stone is that you use them with water. paper is best used dry. it creates lots of magnetic dust.



I recommend only wet/dry sandpaper, used wet, for this reason.


----------



## inferno (Apr 6, 2021)

i also have the cubitron papers. have not tried them wet yet. but i have tried all other papers i have wet. and those really slow down with water. and wear out much faster too.


----------



## Pie (Apr 6, 2021)

Lobster stone removes metal pretty quick but feels horrible. Actually most stones in that grit range feel pretty bad. Naniwa traditional 220 is about the same but bigger and glazes faster in my experience. I did notice that it destroyed the edge when I tried to set a bevel on blue 2.. looked like a bread knife after a couple passes.

I found the Naniwa pro 400 to be fast enough at pulling up a burr on crappy German and Chinese steel, but the shapton glass 220 is way, way faster and does so with absolutely no slurry. Cheap but not the cheapest. Tried some thinning on it and it does well, but does wear down significantly.


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Apr 6, 2021)

inferno said:


> i also have the cubitron papers. have not tried them wet yet. but i have tried all other papers i have wet. and those really slow down with water. and wear out much faster too.



Even pure water should provide some lubrication, which should _extend_ abrasive life, not reduce it. Which kinds of paper have worn out faster when wet?


----------



## inferno (Apr 6, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> Even pure water should provide some lubrication, which should _extend_ abrasive life, not reduce it. Which kinds of paper have worn out faster when wet?



bosch "metal", and several types from würth, both alox and sic.


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Apr 7, 2021)

inferno said:


> bosch "metal", and several types from würth, both alox and sic.



Yours is a curious observation that I am at a loss to explain, unless it is simply inferior and the backing or coat are not genuinely waterproof, but that seems unlikely since you have tried several types. Do you have very hard or heavily chlorinated water, or anything that could be considered otherwise unusual?

If you do try the 3M Cubitron II paper wet I am interested in what you find. If you can spare the time and material perhaps try it with both pure water and water with a drop of dish soap, the latter being what I often use.


----------



## cotedupy (Apr 7, 2021)

FWIW - I recently used a friend's Naniwa combi (which I think might have been based on the Traditional, though could've been SS). And the coarser 400 side was very good, and surprisingly quick.

What I use though is a cheap Norton combi which I've got all of the oil out of. And would definitely recommend for quick cutting and vanishingly little dishing. Around 140/400 I believe.


----------



## Bonzo (Apr 8, 2021)

Hmm, I forgot about those Norton stones completely. I might pick one up just for the variety. I'm curious, why would you get the oil out? What do you use then, soap and water?

I actually found a local sharpener who's willing to thin the knives for me on a belt grinder so I'll probably go with that. If I still continue to have trouble with the knives, my next step would be to gift them to someone and get myself a proper carbon petty.


----------



## cotedupy (Apr 8, 2021)

Umm... I got the oil out just because I'm not that used to sharpening on oil. Now I just use a bit of water on it; it feels quite rough, but I personally prefer it this way. Also in the Aussie heat the oil just used to kinda ooze out of it, and I had to scrub it off the stone and my hands every time I used it.

I did it over time, but I imagine you could probably speed the process up by warming it very slightly to get the oil out, or soaking in soapy warm water for a bit and then rinsing well and scrubbing. TBH though - if you don't mind sharpening using oil, then don't bother. It probably feels nicer with oil, I just don't like it.

This is the one I got btw, I've used it a lot for quite heavy repair work, never had to flatten, and not expensive. Would definitely recommend. COMES WITH FREE WHETSTONE HOLDER!!!


----------



## big_adventure (Apr 8, 2021)

Bonzo said:


> Thank you all for your input. I was considering Shapton lower grits but can't find any in Europe and they're priced almost like the Naniwa Pros anyway.
> A new train of thought is getting a Naniwa 400 for sharpening and using sandpaper for thinning. In the long run, I'd be looking at King 300, seems the reviews are uniformly positive about that one. Btw, that Imanishi looks like a lot of stone for a reasonable price...





Bonzo said:


> Well, I stand corrected. I could've sworn I saw 320 as the lowest Shapton grit available in EU stores.



cleancut.eu has a pretty solid range of Shapton stones. Amazon has them all, but be careful on pricing - in France, the prices on the Glass stones is like triple what it should be; some vendor is just screwing with inexperienced shoppers.


----------



## Bart.s (Apr 8, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> cleancut.eu has a pretty solid range of Shapton stones. Amazon has them all, but be careful on pricing - in France, the prices on the Glass stones is like triple what it should be; some vendor is just screwing with inexperienced shoppers.



I find cleancut to be very expensive in terms of stones:






Whetstone - Coarse


Whetstone - Coarse Whetstone - Coarse Grit #220



www.cleancut.eu





Vs. Whetstone.fi:









Japanese sharpening stones | Hiomakivi.fi English


Quality Japanese sharpening stones and whetstones for knives. Naniwa, Shapton, Cerax, Suehiro, Morihei, Atoma. Our goal is to offer you one of the best-valued whetstones and knives from the higher end of the range. These stones are used in kitchens and workshops all over.




www.whetstone.fi





Fine-tools has the same price as whetstone.fi, but are out of stock.


----------



## big_adventure (Apr 8, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> I find cleancut to be very expensive in terms of stones:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, Cleancut's prices aren't the best on SPs. Somewhat better on SGs. 

Even Amazon beats them on the SPs - 44 euros shipped for the 220.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 8, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> FWIW - I recently used a friend's Naniwa combi (which I think might have been based on the Traditional, though could've been SS). And the coarser 400 side was very good, and surprisingly quick.


It must have been superstones. The Naniwa Traditional series only has the 220.

And I've heard many times that the Superstone 400 should be quite good.


----------



## cotedupy (Apr 9, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> It must have been superstones. The Naniwa Traditional series only has the 220.
> 
> And I've heard many times that the Superstone 400 should be quite good.



I've just looked at the picture I took of it, and you're absolutely right - it says 'S400' on the side, which I think is the Superstone.

Good to know that my impression chimes with that of others - I thought the 400 was very good indeed. The 1k side of it less so, but still miles better than my 3k.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 9, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I've just looked at the picture I took of it, and you're absolutely right - it says 'S400' on the side, which I think is the Superstone.
> 
> Good to know that my impression chimes with that of others - I thought the 400 was very good indeed. The 1k side of it less so, but still miles better than my 3k.


I have the Superstone 5K myself, a good stone once you've figured out how it works for you.

If I remember correctly, @stringer owns and appreciates the Superstone 2K ?!

I'm slowly getting the impression that the superstones or individual stones from the series are worth a closer look.

Unfortunately, I like the color of the 1K, but that alone shouldn't be a reason to buy.


----------



## cotedupy (Apr 9, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> I have the Superstone 5K myself, a good stone once you've figured out how it works for you.
> 
> If I remember correctly, @stringer owns and appreciates the Superstone 2K ?!
> 
> ...



Yes... rather a pretty blue colour (at least in the pic I took). It was ok, but I didn't like it as much as my Suehiro 1k, or King 1.2k.

The 400 was quite a nice green though too!


----------



## M1k3 (Apr 9, 2021)

Super Stone 220 is a muddy mess. Great for getting rid of heavy, old built up patina/rust though.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 9, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> The 400 was quite a nice green though too


The color of the 400 reminds me of the incredible Hulk.  

And the 2K looks Tweety yellow like it came straight from Looney Tunes ..


----------



## cotedupy (Apr 9, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Super Stone 220 is a muddy mess. Great for getting rid of heavy, old built up patina/rust though.



Interesting the extent of the variation in a particular line. The 400 wasn't too muddy at all, and my 3k clogs as soon as a knife gets within about 5 metres of it, so no hope for any mud there at all.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 9, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> my 3k clogs as soon as a knife gets within about 5 metres of it


Have you ever created mud on the stone with a nagura?


----------



## cotedupy (Apr 9, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Have you ever created mud on the stone with a nagura?



I've only got one of those cheap King (8k?) nagura, and it does work slightly better with that. But still clogs very quickly.

At least then I have the nagura to hand to try to clean it though!


----------



## Aidan (Apr 9, 2021)

Shapton Glass Stones HR: sharper than glass


The Shapton Glass Stones sharpen quickly and evenly. The name suggests that the glass sharpens, which actually is not the case.




www.knivesandtools.co.uk


----------



## Bonzo (Apr 9, 2021)

This has been a wonderful discussion with plenty of info, thank you guys. Having sorted the thinning part, I'm still on the lookout for a nice stone for my crappy knives. I'm thinking about just going with Norton but I'm a bit confused about their coarse/medium/fine ratings. Or should I play it safe and cash out for the Naniwa 400/Shapton 320?


----------



## Bart.s (Apr 9, 2021)

I would play it safe and get a stone from a reputable brand. 

I don't have any experience with the Norton stones, but I have the NP400. It behaves like a ~500/600 grit stone. I use it for sharpening dull knives, not for repairs or thinning. It is almost a splash and go, it will absorb some water the first few minutes. I quite like it.

I don't have the SP/SG 320, but from what i've read they are true splash and go's and are true to grit. Will be more suitable for light repairs/thinning. Perhaps other who have it can tell you more about it.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 9, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> I don't have any experience with the Norton stones, but I have the NP400. It behaves like a ~500/600 grit stone. I use it for sharpening dull knives, not for repairs or thinning. It is almost a splash and go, it will absorb some water the first few minutes. I quite like it.


I agree 100%. And I have to add that the Naniwa Professionell / Chosera is a good stone, but personally for me it is too slow for a rough stone.

The Shapton Pro 320 is primarily intended for carbon steels. It also works with stainless steels.

The Shapton Pro 220 is designed for stainless steels. And it's quick and inexpensive. My weapon of choice for crappy knives.


----------



## cotedupy (Apr 10, 2021)

Bonzo said:


> This has been a wonderful discussion with plenty of info, thank you guys. Having sorted the thinning part, I'm still on the lookout for a nice stone for my crappy knives. I'm thinking about just going with Norton but I'm a bit confused about their coarse/medium/fine ratings. Or should I play it safe and cash out for the Naniwa 400/Shapton 320?



The 'fine' side of my Norton probably comes up about 500 at a guess. I can get knives reasonably sharp on it. But really I usually finish around 1k at a minimum. I use the Norton combi for chip removal and resetting edges on all the billions of Globals that my family run through the dishwasher the entire time :/

The Norton India range is finer I believe.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 10, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> The 'fine' side of my Norton probably comes up about 500 at a guess. I can get knives reasonably sharp on it. But really I usually finish around 1k at a minimum. I use the Norton combi for chip removal and resetting edges on all the billions of Globals that my family run through the dishwasher the entire time :/
> 
> The Norton India range is finer I believe.


I completely agree.

With crappy knives, most of the work is done with a fast, coarse stone (regardless of the manufacturer) and then finish with 1K.


----------



## Kawa (Apr 10, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> I have the Superstone 5K myself, a good stone once you've figured out how it works for you.
> 
> If I remember correctly, @stringer owns and appreciates the Superstone 2K ?!
> 
> ...



Superstone 2k and 5k look a like in terms of feeling (creamy), feedback and wear. The 5k just polishes higher. I like both.

The superstone 1000 on the other hand is more like the superstone 220: very soft and dishes really fast. Easy to ruin an edge (and the stone) when your angle is slightly off. Very sensitive to pressure aswell. A little bit more then bofore and you cut into your stone and the edge is rounded.

The 2k and 5k are more forgiving to me


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Apr 10, 2021)

Bonzo said:


> I'm curious, why would you get the oil out? What do you use then, soap and water?


I use my Crystolons with water and a few drops of propylene glycol. That combo seems to be compatible with whatever oil is in there. It's what I use on all of my oil stones.


----------

