# Aogami super vs aogami 2 vs r2/sg2 edge retention?



## aikon2020 (Feb 14, 2021)

How much longer does as holds its edge compared to a#2 and how does r2/sg2 compare to as? (With similar good heat treat)


----------



## M1k3 (Feb 14, 2021)

Testing the Edge Retention of 48 Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds


I tested the edge retention of 48 knife steels using the same knife design and sharpening. Which steels cut the longest? Which are the most balanced?




knifesteelnerds.com


----------



## aikon2020 (Feb 14, 2021)

Interesting, but I didn't find any b2 in there?


----------



## M1k3 (Feb 14, 2021)

aikon2020 said:


> Interesting, but I didn't find any b2 in there?


Higher than 1095, lower than AS.


----------



## aikon2020 (Feb 15, 2021)

Anyone with experience with the steels that can give some kind of ballpark figures? Especially how much longer as will hold its edge over a2 and maybe how r2 compares to both.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

A lot will depend on the HT of course. Different smiths do it differently. Assuming equivalent HT, A2 will retain it's edge less than AS, on the other hand, AS will chip more easily (though I've never had the issue myself). R2 will retain its edge longer than either.

A2 and AS are pretty similar in how difficult they are to sharpen - which is to say, not difficult at all, like all low alloy steels. You can raise a burr in a handful of strokes, and remove it with one or two high-angle edge-leading passes. Polishing and stropping and you've got a sharp knife in just a couple of minutes, and the edge will last pretty well for cutting food.

R2 will hold an edge longer than either, but it's a lot more difficult to sharpen and may not feel as sharp as easily as the carbon steels. Note: "more difficult" doesn't mean "difficult," But it will take longer and somewhat better technique to really get everything you can out of the edge. 

Mileage may vary of course. If someone wants stainless, I would happily recommend R2/SG2 to them.


----------



## aikon2020 (Feb 15, 2021)

How much differs percentage wise between them? Estimate ofcourse


----------



## M1k3 (Feb 15, 2021)

aikon2020 said:


> How much differs percentage wise between them? Estimate ofcourse


Enough to tell a difference. A few extra days/a week worth of knife work..


----------



## labor of love (Feb 15, 2021)

aikon2020 said:


> How much differs percentage wise between them? Estimate ofcourse


What knife characteristic are you looking for exactly? Best edge retention?


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

aikon2020 said:


> How much differs percentage wise between them? Estimate ofcourse



As long as you're not violent with the edges, and we're assuming equivalent HT, let's say that AS edges will last 10% or 15% longer than A2. What you cut might change that up of course. R2 should last a solid 30 or 40% longer still at _minimum_, but it may not ever feel as sharp at it's peak. My sharpest-feeling knives are AS: it's easy to make them stupidly sharp, and once they are, they last suitably long at that level.


----------



## captaincaed (Feb 15, 2021)

aikon2020 said:


> Interesting, but I didn't find any b2 in there?


I think Larrin has some difficulty sourcing Japanese steels. Minimum orders and some memory that says it can be challenging to buy at all if you haven't worked in Japan. Not sure how true that is anymore.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I think Larrin has some difficulty sourcing Japanese steels. Minimum orders and some memory that says it can be challenging to buy at all if you haven't worked in Japan. Not sure how true that is anymore.



That sounds similar to what I've heard - if you want to import it yourself and don't have magic connections, you have to buy a ton minimum or something. Someone like Carter, who is wired in Japan, can access smaller quantities of Shirogami for his work.


----------



## JaVa (Feb 15, 2021)

One big factor is cutting acidic stuff. Even though some think it's a controversial topic, but IMO it has a major effect.

We used to go thru about 15-20 kg of tomatoes and maybe 5 kg of lemons plus everything else on top of that every day in a super busy kitchen.

White2 lasts me about a day
With B2 I get by about 2-3 work days
with SKD I get by 5 days
Itinomonn is thought to be A2 or SKD or similar and gets me by about 4-5 days
With R2 about 5 days too
And VG10 and Ginsan also about 5 days.

At that point all of them still cut OK. My coworkers still think they cut great, but for me that's when it's time to put them on some stones. I'm aware my results don't reflect the popular views, but what can I do? That's what I got with my knives when I was at the prep station. Like I just don't get any major benefit from R2 compared to SKD. And I can't get passed 5 days with any steel. Not even Hap40.

Biggest difference for me is that White2 gets wrecked with tomatoes etc. B2 can handle them a bit better. Semi Stainless will be affected only a little and SS not at all. If I drop the acidic stuff out of the equation the White2 lasts 2-3 days and B2 3-4 days. Other steels mentioned won't be affected.

But in a home kitchen we're probably talking about weeks or months of use to get to the same volume.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 15, 2021)

It’s interesting to me that you found r2 retention to be about the same as skd. I found r2 to last a bit longer than skd and ginsan. Generally speaking.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

JaVa said:


> One big factor is cutting acidic stuff. Even though some think it's a controversial topic, but IMO it has a major effect.
> 
> We used to go thru about 15-20 kg of tomatoes and maybe 5 kg of lemons plus everything else on top of that every day in a super busy kitchen.
> 
> ...



I get your feeling on that. What I consider sharp is orders of magnitude finer than what most people I know would consider sharp. The instant I have pulling on tomato skin or can even just feel that the edge isn't perfectly consistent, I start reaching for stones. A stitch in time saves nine or some such. Plus, I don't work, so I have tons of free time.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

labor of love said:


> It’s interesting to me that you found r2 retention to be about the same as skd. I found r2 to last a bit longer than skd and ginsan. Generally speaking.



One of those "mileage may vary" moments. 

As an aside, isn't it great that we all have our own experiences and preferences? Some of us wouldn't sully their hands with stainless, some only want it, some want the mix. My very first experience with AS had me convinced that it sucked. An AS knife that was sharp as hell out of the box couldn't cleanly slice a tomato at the end of a couple hours prep. I sharpened it, it was sharp, and after two meal preps, it was again feeling dull, skipping on pepper skin. It was really this knife that made me both develop my sharpening skills and not worry about putting somewhat expensive steel on the stone in it's first week in my possession. The next time, instead of maintaining the OOTB edge, I thinned the hell out of the knife and rebuilt the edge from scratch. It took forever on a 1K stone. But damnit if I didn't get it stupid sharp, and, lots of prep sessions later, it's STILL the sharpest knife on my board and the edge is basically flawless. Bow down to AS for sharp edges that last "long enough."

And saying that, I still don't think I'd personally want to use a carbon steel knife in most restaurant situations. I baby my tools, but sometimes, you just can't, and having some extra edge retention combined with not having to worry if you leave onion juice on it because an emergency cropped up would make me feel better about the whole process. Yet another "mileage may vary" moment.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 15, 2021)

Takeda 240 suji was hands down the best knife for tomatoes I’ve ever used. AS steel-particularly Takeda can get crazy toothy and hold on to its toothiness for quite awhile (2-3k edge) which I found perfect for tomatoes. But overall it’s definitely not. Anywhere close to being a fave steel of mine.


----------



## JaVa (Feb 15, 2021)

labor of love said:


> It’s interesting to me that you found r2 retention to be about the same as skd. I found r2 to last a bit longer than skd and ginsan. Generally speaking.


I realize that, I know it should do better, but what can I say?
If I really try hard I might see small difference for the R2, but really not big enough to make a real noticable impact. Also it could be that it's just a point where I already want a sharper tool and that point is reached about the same time with the steels mentioned.

If I push past that point the R2 does fair better and lasts longer with still having a working edge. I'll get a about a day more with the others. But even then I really don't get R2 steels expected ultra long edge retention. Maybe a days worth more or so over the SKD and Ginsan. But at that time It's not really very enjoyable to use.

Also could be some difference in sharpening. I usually go only to 3000 grit and strop. Works well for me in the kitchen. Maybe if I'd push it higher to 5000 to 6000, that starting point might effect the results?
Still I really like the R2 steel a lot. Great for tomatoes also.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 15, 2021)

Oh perhaps my favorite thing about blazen and takamura r2 knives are their ability to hold on to a 6k edge for an impressive amount of time. If you don’t have a preference for 6k edges then I could see how you feel meh about r2


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 15, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> The next time, instead of maintaining the OOTB edge, I thinned the hell out of the knife and rebuilt the edge from scratch. It took forever on a 1K stone. But damnit if I didn't get it stupid sharp, and, lots of prep sessions later, it's STILL the sharpest knife on my board and the edge is basically flawless.


Proving that the exact same piece of steel holds its edge differently when the geometry is changed. And proving that it's possible for people to *think* they're judging a type of steel when actually they're judging a knife, or a knife maker, or even judging how well the knife was just sharpened.

I can't claim (and don't want to claim) that _you_ get it wrong or that any individual gets it wrong, but it's obvious that there's a lot of room for error in comparing types of steel - unless all the knives have perfectly equal profiles and grinds, and start out perfectly equally sharpened. (Not perfectly sharp, just perfectly equal)


----------



## Barmoley (Feb 15, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Proving that the exact same piece of steel holds its edge differently when the geometry is changed. And proving that it's possible for people to *think* they're judging a type of steel when actually they're judging a knife, or a knife maker, or even judging how well the knife was just sharpened.
> 
> I can't claim (and don't want to claim) that _you_ get it wrong or that any individual gets it wrong, but it's obvious that there's a lot of room for error in comparing types of steel - unless all the knives have perfectly equal profiles and grinds, and start out perfectly equally sharpened. (Not perfectly sharp, just perfectly equal)


This is exactly the issue in all these comparisons and opinions.

In addition you also need to identify what is making your edge dull, is it chipping, is it deforming, corrosion, wear? Depending on the mechanism different steels would show relatively different edge longevity even with exactly the same geometry.

The article by Larrin linked above is the best we have for wear. If wear is not your concern then you need to look at other attributes.

As a side note can we please stop calling aogami 2 a2, a2 is a different steel also used for kitchen knives and it is confusing.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 15, 2021)

Takamura HSPS line comes ootb with a very low bevel...just crazy sharp...only other knife where I’ve seen anything remotely close to it is watanabe. Both are quite brittle.


----------



## M1k3 (Feb 15, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Takamura HSPS line comes ootb with a very low bevel...just crazy sharp...only other knife where I’ve seen anything remotely close to it is watanabe. Both are quite brittle.


Put a microbevel on it. Or just sharpen it normally.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 15, 2021)

Definitely did just that


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 16, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Proving that the exact same piece of steel holds its edge differently when the geometry is changed. And proving that it's possible for people to *think* they're judging a type of steel when actually they're judging a knife, or a knife maker, or even judging how well the knife was just sharpened.
> 
> I can't claim (and don't want to claim) that _you_ get it wrong or that any individual gets it wrong, but it's obvious that there's a lot of room for error in comparing types of steel - unless all the knives have perfectly equal profiles and grinds, and start out perfectly equally sharpened. (Not perfectly sharp, just perfectly equal)



I agree with everything you said here. All of this is correct in my view, and it's what my anecdote was reaching for (and evidently failing to find - shouldn't have left the answer on the top shelf of the pantry). It's more or less why I kept repeating "assuming identically good heat treatment and construction" which is something that, honestly, wouldn't be likely even on two of the same model kinves in the same steel by the same smith. "Artisan" implies variance. 



Barmoley said:


> This is exactly the issue in all these comparisons and opinions.
> 
> In addition you also need to identify what is making your edge dull, is it chipping, is it deforming, corrosion, wear? Depending on the mechanism different steels would show relatively different edge longevity even with exactly the same geometry.
> 
> ...



Sorry - I was just abbreviating to not have to keep typing aogami. Given the context of the thread, asking specifically about those three steels, I didn't fighre there would be any confusion.



labor of love said:


> Takamura HSPS line comes ootb with a very low bevel...just crazy sharp...only other knife where I’ve seen anything remotely close to it is watanabe. Both are quite brittle.



That was exactly the scene on the knife I ref above. It also had a ton of hollow grind on both sides and I wanted that gone as well.


----------



## captaincaed (Feb 16, 2021)

White and takefu Shiro seem to take a beating in acid, especially if it's halfway between sharpenings.


----------



## JaVa (Feb 16, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Oh perhaps my fave favorite thing about blazen and takamura r2 knives are their ability to hold on to a 6k edge for an impressive amount of time. If you don’t have a preference for 6k edges then I could see how you feel meh about r2


Good tip.

I haven't really seriously used my 6 k for a couple years now. Only a few occasions playing with carbons. Other than that haven't done that with my knives in the rotation. It's worked so well that really didn't see the need. But I'll surely check it out now. 

I don't think R2 is meh at all. Any Steel that gets me thru about 5 days those battles is wonderful in my book. I haven't been disappointed in the R2, but rather surprised with the Ginsan and SKD.

After Covid though I don't work in the same kitchen and for our food truck, which is my source of income since then, I don't have even remotely the same amount of prep I used to do. So it's going to be hard to judge with different circumstances. Though I will get to see differences between steels. Will probably take several weeks now compared to the few days it took to go thru one knife before.

@ Barmoley I was talking about the A2 tool steel, not Aogami2.


----------



## Midsummer (Feb 16, 2021)

It seems A2 and Ao2 could work.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 16, 2021)

B#2 is widely used. Not like it takes longer typing it neither.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 16, 2021)

JaVa said:


> @ Barmoley I was talking about the A2 tool steel, not Aogami2.





big_adventure said:


> Sorry - I was just abbreviating to not have to keep typing aogami. Given the context of the thread, asking specifically about those three steels, I didn't fighre there would be any confusion.



Hence why, even within context, best stick with abbreviations that bear no confusion.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 16, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Hence why, even within context, best stick with abbreviations that bear no confusion.



I agree, accept my chastisement and will do better in the future. Probably.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 16, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I agree, accept my chastisement and will do better in the future. Probably.


Although to be honest, reading within finest contextual I could still distinguish who talked A2 and who talked aogami.


----------



## Barmoley (Feb 16, 2021)

JaVa said:


> @ Barmoley I was talking about the A2 tool steel, not Aogami2.



I know you were, gleamed it from the context. Wasn't specifically addressing this to you. OP started it and you can see from some of the responses that it is not clear which steel posters are talking about. The question was specifically about blue 2 vs blue super vs r2/Sg2 and even though no question has ever prevented us from drifting and discussing anything else except what was asked about, using A2 for aogami 2 (blue 2) makes this discussion even more confusing. B2 is a pretty standard abbreviation for aogami 2 around here and is as easy to type.


----------



## adam92 (Feb 17, 2021)

Based on the professional kitchen user experience. I used AS/A2/R2. For me R2 last the edge longest, sharpen also hardest, Aogami steel hold the toothy edge better then R2. there's not significant difference for me. but I like the Aogami more than R2 when handling raw meet, because I feel more toothier than R2?


----------



## captaincaed (Feb 17, 2021)

I'm just cooking at home, but I have a similar experience. R2 is the only steel I currently have that I find "hard" to sharpen. Just takes a while to deburr


----------



## LostHighway (Feb 17, 2021)

Larrin's work at least manages reasonable consistency in controlling the variables. I'm not dismissive of subjective impressions but we have to acknowledge their considerable limitations. FWIW among those steels B2 has to be resharpened the most frequently of those steels but still has what I consider reasonable edge holding. I also find it the most pleasant to sharpen among those steels. SG2/R2 edges IME last the longest of those steels by a fair margin. For me it is less pleasant to sharpen than either B2 or AS but still not really difficult. My sample size for all three steels is small (B2 the largest) and for SG2/R2 confined to lazer-ish knives.

I have bonded more with specific B2 (and B1, 1.2519, and A2) knives than I have with AS or SG2/R2 but that is my sense of the gestalt of the knife rather than just edge retention. I will keep at least one SG2/R2 knife around for its specific virtues but I don't entirely love it.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 17, 2021)

Same feeling - sold mine. Not difficult to sharpen, but I now rather classify not based on difficulty, but on pleasure, and it sure isn’t much pleasurable to work with on stones. Still it’s a good steel in use - for some I guess it will stand about perfect. Widely available too which I guess is nice when you love it and have such an wide array of makers to choose from.

Blue #2 on the other hand is one of those most pleasurable to sharpen and in use. A2 is very pleasant too. Possibly would consider 52100 as best I’ve used so far.


----------



## aikon2020 (Feb 17, 2021)

Btw how long would Misono Swedish carbon hold it's edge compared to the others?


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 17, 2021)

Not much in a Catra test - 1095 ballpark.


----------



## inferno (Feb 18, 2021)

personally i prefer a2. some say a2 is better than a2 but i think a2 is better.
but sometimes i actually enjoy a2 more for the stain resistance. i guess either a2 or a2 would do.
i find a2 takes a better edge easier than a2. but in the end i think i will have to go with a2 on this one.

then we have w2. many people like w2. i think its just glorified 1095. but is it better than w2? who knows.
w2 has been around for a long long time. many people swear by w2 and say it creates the best hamon lines.
i've never tried w2 but i have tried w2. also i've read that getting hold of good w2 is not so easy.
since i've never tried w2 i think i will have to go with w2 on this one since i actually own knives in w2.

however the most ultimate steel ever would have to be damascus d2 and r2, then you get r2d2 steel.

anyone else feel the same?


----------



## JaVa (Feb 18, 2021)

I think it's time to put the bottle away?


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> ...
> anyone else feel the same?


Probably your best bet would be U2, since clearly you still haven't found what you're looking for.


----------



## aikon2020 (Feb 18, 2021)

Point taken


----------



## Chicagohawkie (Feb 18, 2021)

Can’t go wrong with either AS or R2..... My two favorites. I slightly prefer the R2 for its stain resistance and ease of sharpening. I feel I need another Takamura R2 in my block now! 240 Hana R2, here I come!


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 18, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Probably your best bet would be U2, since clearly you still haven't found what you're looking for.



Eh, U2 has this bad habit of just leaving stuff places you don't want it, and being really, really persistent about it, making it almost impossible to remove cleanly. You thought VG10 was crappy to deburr.


----------



## inferno (Feb 18, 2021)

my experience with r2 vs an aus8 cryoed mac (backtoback, cardboard, cut up 2 big boxes into slivers) is that it takes about 5-10x as long to resharpen again on a 4k. but it only stays sharp for like twice as long. however the dulling mechanism was by microchipping, hundreds of them. and it was still sharp between the chips.

then i made another cardboard test with another r2 blade, and that one didn't chip out once or stopped cutting paper cleanly after 2 hours of almost constant cutting. basically i could not dull it enough with cardboard so it would stop cutting paper cleanly. 

so imo this steel can be VERY long lasting. i actually had to abort the test because the handle broke in 2  

-----------

blue 2 on the other hand is the only real supersteel imo. it gets super sharp super easy. and holds it for an acceptable amount of time. and its tough enough.

----------

i like blue super too, very good steel. probably tougher than blue 2. and r2 for that matter. it just has no soul . its like this perfect lab product. its too perfect. they way i think they make it is like this: you take blue 2, and then you suck out all the soul out of it. then you get blue super! fairly certain this is exactly how hitachi makes it.


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> ... and then you suck out all the soul out of it.


Where do you put that? Is some hapless Hitachi employee the new James Brown and we don't know it yet?


----------



## inferno (Feb 18, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Where do you put that? Is some hapless Hitachi employee the new James Brown and we don't know it yet?



no. i think they are _*all*_ in on it. they basically put blue 2 in this machine that that looks like the LHC in switzerland and then they simply run it in reverse. 
i've seen it done on youtube. its basically a type of nuclear transmutation, but in reverse right. yeah thats how they do it. 

and the soul that they suck out of the blue2 steel it goes into this micro-singularity right, where it goes through this patented antimatter/antiparticle total annihiliation process and basically gets sent to another parallel universe on the "strong brane". yeah thats the process right there. seen it first hand!


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> and then they simply run it in reverse


You are obviously operating on a much higher plane than I am. 

I can tell because this is how people talk when they're running out of oxygen. Please have a look at your altitude.


----------



## LucasFur (Feb 18, 2021)

aikon2020 said:


> How much longer does as holds its edge compared to a#2 and how does r2/sg2 compare to as? (With similar good heat treat)


There is lots of good info here. But really there are several factors. 
1. steel thickness behind the edge (edge angle?) 
2. Bevel width. 
3. type of edge degradation your experiencing. 
4. initial edge grade finish/ Type 
5. what you define as "Dull"/ "Sharp" 
6. the trade-off of different Heat treats of the same steels. (Esp in the carbon steels) 

In my experience ... AS and R2 are basically the same edge retention (Cutting veggies) ... acidic fruit AS lasts 15 mins ... maybe 10-15 Lemons before i would touch up. R2 wont notice much of a difference at all. and with Blue 2 .. 5 Lemons. 
(Cutting a lemon entails cutting in half, juicing, cutting out flesh and mincing into a fine pulp) 

Blue 2 has about 50-70% (HT Dependent) of the edge retention that AS/R2 have cutting generic veggies. 
Sharpening / touch-ups dont bother me in the slightest ... its actually fun to make the knife better.


----------



## inferno (Feb 18, 2021)

in my opinion edge retention stops being important as soon as you get actual stones and know how to use them. 

even the shittiest fiskars 53hrc krupp 1.4116 will perform well if you touch it up when needed. and its easy and quick with this steel. its like butter on stones.

i used a 53hrc fiskars as my only kitchen knife for several years. touched it up on the sharpmaker every week. home enviro. it was always sharp as F. even cut my finger to the bone without even noticing it. well i noticed the red color pouring out of my finger. after while. iron in food is good for you i heard.

and this is why i think blue 2 is the king of the hill talking carbons. its always done well. impossible to F up. and its cheap. and it takes this true killer edge. and its so easy to get it.


----------



## Matt Jacobs (Feb 19, 2021)

inferno said:


> my experience with r2 vs an aus8 cryoed mac (backtoback, cardboard, cut up 2 big boxes into slivers) is that it takes about 5-10x as long to resharpen again on a 4k. but it only stays sharp for like twice as long. however the dulling mechanism was by microchipping, hundreds of them. and it was still sharp between the chips.
> 
> then i made another cardboard test with another r2 blade, and that one didn't chip out once or stopped cutting paper cleanly after 2 hours of almost constant cutting. basically i could not dull it enough with cardboard so it would stop cutting paper cleanly.
> 
> ...



You make some really good points here and interestingly enough I have had a similar experience with R2. I have only owned one and it was pretty easy to sharpen, got screaming sharp and then wouldnt stop micro chipping. I have sold it but would love to try another from another maker as I think the potential is very high


----------



## kevpenbanc (Feb 20, 2021)

Back in my early knife days, 2013-2014 ish, as a home cook I was getting around a month out of a Tanaka B2, 3 months out of Takarmura Hana R2, maybe 2ish months out of a Masashi SLD, can't remember what I got out of my Moritaka AS.
Fairly rough comparisons.


----------

