# Miyabi 600MCD - Second Opinions Please?



## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

LOCATION: Canada

KNIFE TYPE: Gyuto (French shape)

Primary Hand: Left

Handle: Western, I guess. I like a bolster. I like octaganal. The only compromise on that would be like a Takamura Hana?
http://www.mtckitchen.com/p-690-takamura-hana-damascus-hsps-gyuto-21cm.aspx

Length: 210

Stainless: Yes please.

Budget: Variable. Depends on my "end game". Rehandle the Miyabi 600MCD much further down the road?


KNIFE USE
Environment: Home, occasional semi-professional (pop-ups) or catering for friends.

Tasks: Everything. Use my soon-to-be beaters Tojiro DP and Artifex for breaking down chicken?

Upgrading from: Tojiro DP, Yoshikane SKD

Grip: Pinch

Top 3 Cutting motion: Push, slice, chop


Improvements over current (Tojiro DP):
Performance: Still a thin blade. Taking and edge, holding an edge.
Aesthetics: (damascus)
Eventually, a wood handle? I still REALLY like the Ironwood.


Comfort: Knife weight approx the same as Tojiro DP.
I can round my own choil and spine.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Board: Synthetic

Sharpen Myself: Yes. Chosera stones are on-the-way.


SPECIAL NOTE:
I have small hands. Like the hands of a small girl.
Prefer a smaller nimble handle. The Artifex handle is much too chunky for me.



My local shop (5 minutes from home) seems to have the Miyabi 600MCD at a sale price.
https://www.zwilling.ca/miyabi/kniv...11-miyabi-600mcd-gyutoh-8-200-mm#.VWry-0ZlZrk
I've had my eye on this knife for a while now.
ZDP-189 @ HRC 66

I have tried it's cheaper cousin, the 600D
https://www.zwilling.ca/miyabi/kniv...gyutoh-8-200-mm-morimoto-edition#.VWrxpUZlZrk
I believe the handle and shape is identical.
While it doesn't have quite the bite on my rear fingers (of an octagonal handle), I'm quite happy with it. 


While I've had my eye on the the Tanaka Ironwood for the longest time.
Love the dark edge, the profile, thinness and the wood handle. Again, the shape doesn't have a lot of bite on my rear fingers.
Regardless, the sale of the 600MCD puts this at less than 1/2 the price of the Tanaka.
Kind of hard to argue with that.


The next step past this would be a full custom.
And that's not going to happen for a very long time.


Can you guys give me a 2nd opinion please?


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## James (May 31, 2015)

If you're really that set on the Tanaka, I'd just get it because you might end up doing so anyways down the line. A 210 ironwood gyuto isn't that much more expensive if you look around.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 31, 2015)

I have both a Miyabi 600mcd gyuto and Takamura Hana santoku. MTC will (or at least they used to) ship to Canada if you call then email your order, it's how I got mine. On top of the exchange rate, you will get killed by customs (7% duty plus federal/provincial tax) and then UPS brokerage fees, unless you go to the port of entry and do the clearance yourself (one of the few perks of living in Winnipeg) which will save you the UPS fees.

As far as other options go, you could consider a Sukenari from JCK, but they don't have the integral wa handle and are more expensive, but are available in 210-270, whereas the Miyabi and Takamura are just 210. A Zwilling Kramer probably wouldn't be the best fit due to the handle, I find it almost too large and bulbous. I've had to adjust my pinch grip, but it actually seems to work quite well this way.

Not sure if some other members have any additional suggestions?


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## bkdc (May 31, 2015)

ZDP189 is an EXTREMELY hard wear resistant steel. The edge will last forever, but it will definitely chip on you over time. I owned another Miyabi ZDP189 knife, and I don't think I ever sharpened it except to deal with microchips. I made the mistake of giving it away as a gift, and ... the giftee destroyed the edge after a few weeks. It was chipped everywhere. LOL.

I have the Miyabi 600MC (harder than the 600D but softer than the 600MCD) in the 240mm incarnation, and it is a grrreat knife. Even though it is a 3-layer warikomi construction, the gorgeous amboyna burlwood handle sets it apart from all other Miyabi knives. I also own the 8.5-inch and 10.6 inch chefs versions which I need to sell because they are not good lengths for me. I'm not sure if I would be happy with a 200mm 8 inch version of that 600mcd.

If you don't mind babying the 600MCD, it will probably be a fantastic performer. The Miyabi knives are not nearly as thin as the Takamura Hana. The Hakamura Hana/octagonal is 1.6mm thick at the spine above the heel. It is in the ultra-laser category. The Miyabi 600MCD is slightly thicker with a nice taper at the tip.

BTW, the girl on your avatar is a cutie.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 31, 2015)

One other thing I should mention since you're a fellow lefty, the Miyabi knives have an asymmetrical bevel with a right hand bias. I "think" I notice it when cutting, but apparently this could be modified during sharpening since the blade itself is symmetrical http://miyabi.eu/en/product-series/items/miyabi-600mcd--4207.html. The only problem is the ZDP-189 is very wear resistant so it doesn't need sharpening that often.

IIIRC most if not all other traditional J-blades have an asymmetrical blade which cannot be easily adjusted (if at all?)


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## daveb (May 31, 2015)

Henckels has been all over the map over the last twenty years. From the "4 star", the best German production knife ever, to the "5 star" where the marketing guys effed up the 4 star, to the International which are crap. The Miyabi series looks ok but I would be reluctant to buy a knife from a company that can't define their target customer and what they want in a knife.

"Wear resistant" could be easily translated to mean a biatch to sharpen.

How do you like the SKD Yoshi? I'm skeptical that the Miyabi would be an "upgrade" though it may well cost more.

The search is half the fun of knives. Good luck.


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## chinacats (May 31, 2015)

I'd just buy the Tanaka. I believe it will make you happy


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## gic (May 31, 2015)

Can you get a new zwilling kramer essential in sg2 in canada relatively cheaply? You might be able to try one out at the local equivalent of sur la table, you might like them...


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## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

James said:


> If you're really that set on the Tanaka, I'd just get it because you might end up doing so anyways down the line. A 210 ironwood gyuto isn't that much more expensive if you look around.





chinacats said:


> I'd just buy the Tanaka. I believe it will make you happy



Short of playing "Rakuten Roulette", the Tanaka seems to start at $490?
Still a touch on the pricy side.
I presume a bolster can't be "added" at a later date?


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## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

tjangula said:


> I have both a Miyabi 600mcd gyuto and Takamura Hana santoku. MTC will (or at least they used to) ship to Canada if you call then email your order, it's how I got mine. On top of the exchange rate, you will get killed by customs (7% duty plus federal/provincial tax) and then UPS brokerage fees, unless you go to the port of entry and do the clearance yourself (one of the few perks of living in Winnipeg) which will save you the UPS fees.
> 
> As far as other options go, you could consider a Sukenari from JCK, but they don't have the integral wa handle and are more expensive, but are available in 210-270, whereas the Miyabi and Takamura are just 210.



GEEZE. You and I really do have similar tastes.
I too would be acquiring the Takamura Hana via MTC, and getting it shipped via freight forwarder.

Sukenari, Yeah. Passing on that. 





tjangula said:


> One other thing I should mention since you're a fellow lefty, the Miyabi knives have an asymmetrical bevel with a right hand bias. I "think" I notice it when cutting, but apparently this could be modified during sharpening since the blade itself is symmetrical http://miyabi.eu/en/product-series/items/miyabi-600mcd--4207.html. The only problem is the ZDP-189 is very wear resistant so it doesn't need sharpening that often.
> 
> IIIRC most if not all other traditional J-blades have an asymmetrical blade which cannot be easily adjusted (if at all?)



I had a chance to try out the Miyabi Mizu. It's also asymmetrical @ 9 to 12° angle.
http://www.cutleryandmore.com/miyabi-mizu-sg2/starter-knife-set-p133669

I too "think" I notice it, but really, only when I'm focused on the feedback and actively feeling for it.
I too just figured sooner or later, I'll end up sharpening it back to a symmetrical angle. Maybe eventually even slightly favoring my left hand.

I guess I'm here playing the "long game".
Lying to myself that I won't be buying anymore knives anytime soon. 
I can't be the only one who does that right? :laugh:


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## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

tjangula said:


> A Zwilling Kramer probably wouldn't be the best fit due to the handle, I find it almost too large and bulbous. I've had to adjust my pinch grip, but it actually seems to work quite well this way.





gic said:


> Can you get a new zwilling kramer essential in sg2 in canada relatively cheaply? You might be able to try one out at the local equivalent of sur la table, you might like them...



I've tried out the Kramer knives.
They are actually quite thick.
And the chunky handle in my tiny hands makes me feel like I'm driving a Cadillac.
I want a Lotus Exige.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 31, 2015)

gic said:


> Can you get a new zwilling kramer essential in sg2 in canada relatively cheaply? You might be able to try one out at the local equivalent of sur la table, you might like them...


 
I don't think the essential is SG2, they call it FC61 or something which seems to be a mono steel. Since the OP was wanting Damascus and mentioned hand size I don't think a Z-Kramer essential would be the best option due to the handles, even though the Euroline SG2 Damascus fits one of the criteria


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## AllanP (May 31, 2015)

I think Metal master has Tanaka R2 for 430 US dollars, but it's sold out at the moment

the cheapest I've seen the Tanaka 210 is on rakuten for around 435 Canadian, but order at your own risk for that one.


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## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

daveb said:


> Henckels has been all over the map over the last twenty years. From the "4 star", the best German production knife ever, to the "5 star" where the marketing guys effed up the 4 star, to the International which are crap. The Miyabi series looks ok but I would be reluctant to buy a knife from a company that can't define their target customer and what they want in a knife.
> 
> "Wear resistant" could be easily translated to mean a biatch to sharpen.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I agree. Henckels seems like they don't have a strong vision.
A little bit of chasing after the lowest common denominator (which I presume is their bread and butter).
But also a bit of chasing after the higher end market with their Miyabi line.


After seeing this thread, with that gross looking before photo of the interior of the handle,
I decided if I went Miyabi, it would be full-tang or bust.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/3341-Miyabi-7000MC-Wa-Conversion


I love the cutting performance of the Yoshikane. It's the sharpest knife in my collection by far.
While somehow still being the easiest to sharpen, and the best with edge retention. Weird.
Unfortunately, as my first knife, my style has changed.
I find the 240 too long for precision tip-work.
And it's thick and heavy. Gorgeous knife. I just think it's not for me.
It sits on the shelf collecting dust while I spend all my time using my Tojiro DP.

So while the Miyabi is thinner and lighter, but not necessarily "better" than the Yoshi.
It's definitely a 2 steps better than my Tojiro.


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## AllanP (May 31, 2015)

tjangula said:


> I don't think the essential is SG2, they call it FC61 or something which seems to be a mono steel. Since the OP was wanting Damascus and mentioned hand size I don't think a Z-Kramer essential would be the best option due to the handles, even though the Euroline SG2 Damascus fits one of the criteria



I read word on the street the Essential is AEB-L maybe

the 8 inch is like 187 Canadian in kitchen stuff plus which I think is a decent deal, but yeah the handle is not as well done compared to the higher end lines


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## James (May 31, 2015)

Culverin said:


> Short of playing "Rakuten Roulette", the Tanaka seems to start at $490?
> Still a touch on the pricy side.
> I presume a bolster can't be "added" at a later date?



PkJames (Knivesandstones.com) sells them for $460 but he's out of stock atm. Metalmasterjp has a 240 mm available now for $480. Yoshikane SLD might be another good one to look at. 

Just a note, in my experience, powdered steels lose their super duper sharp edge fairly quickly, settle into "sharp, but not mind blowing" and stay there for a while. If that's ok with you, then great, but if you sharpen once you lose that super crisp edge, you may want to look into different steels and/or a strop.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 31, 2015)

If you are thinking tanaka, vendor pkjames at Knives and Stones sells the ironwood, but not sure if the Gyutos are in stock. I got one of my Shigefusa knives from him, I'd do business again


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## aboynamedsuita (May 31, 2015)

Wow I really need to stop taking so long typing replies it looks like I'm always a few minutes behind someone who says the same thing


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## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

bkdc said:


> ZDP189 is an EXTREMELY hard wear resistant steel. The edge will last forever, but it will definitely chip on you over time. I owned another Miyabi ZDP189 knife, and I don't think I ever sharpened it except to deal with microchips. I made the mistake of giving it away as a gift, and ... the giftee destroyed the edge after a few weeks. It was chipped everywhere. LOL.
> 
> I have the Miyabi 600MC (harder than the 600D but softer than the 600MCD) in the 240mm incarnation, and it is a grrreat knife. Even though it is a 3-layer warikomi construction, the gorgeous amboyna burlwood handle sets it apart from all other Miyabi knives. I also own the 8.5-inch and 10.6 inch chefs versions which I need to sell because they are not good lengths for me. I'm not sure if I would be happy with a 200mm 8 inch version of that 600mcd.
> 
> ...




I don't need an edge to last forever. I'm happy to continue learning to sharpen better.
I'm going to be acquiring a full set of stones before the end of summer. (And maybe Jon's JKI diamond stones too? Jury is still out on that. Might do damage as a sharpening newb)
I give away 2 knives as wedding gifts every year. All my friends know to bring me their knives to sharpen.


That Miyabi 600MC handle is gorgeous.
If the MCD came in that Amboyna wood, I would have already jumped on it.
When it comes to wood burls, I'm such a slut. :lol2:


I might not baby the MCD, but I would be more selective about it's use.
No more deboning chickens I guess?


um,
This is the first time I've heard that the Takamura Hana line was a super thin blade.
I've been searching around for the last hour, but my Google-fu is weak.
Do you have a source for that thin 1.6mm?

I wish I could handle the handle (HAH) in my hands before I pulled the trigger.


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## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

James said:


> PkJames (Knivesandstones.com) sells them for $460 but he's out of stock atm. Metalmasterjp has a 240 mm available now for $480. Yoshikane SLD might be another good one to look at.
> 
> Just a note, in my experience, powdered steels lose their super duper sharp edge fairly quickly, settle into "sharp, but not mind blowing" and stay there for a while. If that's ok with you, then great, but if you sharpen once you lose that super crisp edge, you may want to look into different steels and/or a strop.



I'm a serious home cook. 1 crazy insane dinner party every weekend, but the rest of the week, the knife is used less than 15 mins a day.
On my VG-10 knives, I hone about twice during an evening of cooking.
Every 3-4 weeks, I do a _quick_ 3k > 5k progression. 

I don't expect anything sharpened to a ridiculous super duper sharp edge to stay that way forever.
But isn't a PM steel my best choice for "very sharp" edge retention?


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## aboynamedsuita (May 31, 2015)

Culverin said:


> This is the first time I've heard that the Takamura Hana line was a super thin blade.
> I've been searching around for the last hour, but my Google-fu is weak.
> Do you have a source for that thin 1.6mm?
> 
> I wish I could handle the handle (HAH) in my hands before I pulled the trigger.



I know that my regular Takamura R2 (Red handle) 180mm gyuto is 1.6-1.8mm. I also have a HSPS Pro 240mm and it is thicker, but I haven't measured it yet, ditto for my Hanas. 

I have some digital callipers so can check the 600MCD and the Takamuras. I'll also post a picture when I have time to upload (my iPhone is a pos and doesn't even have enough memory to take a picture)


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## Keith Sinclair (May 31, 2015)

You already have a Yoshikane SKD. That is a nice knife, how do you like it? Yes PM steel is a good choice for very sharp edge retention if you protect those edges.

Since you want an upgrade and a Lotus type I would think the Takamura Hana would be an option. I have never seen one in person, from the pictures like the blade geometry better than some of those Miyabi's too much upward sweep at the tip. I think your Yoshikane has better geometry than those.

Anyway sounds like you are going to get a nice knife:thumbsup:


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## bogeybrown (May 31, 2015)

After losing my mind for weeks deciding on a specific J-knife only to be unable to actually find it in-stock anywhere (including the Takamura Hana), I said "screw it" and went into SLT and test-drove the Miyabis. I ended up buying 2 of the Birchwoods and 2 of the Kaizens. I love them so far.

I know that for the money I spent I could have purchased some very beautiful knives from other makers, but the integral handle was an important component for me and being able to lay my hands on them before spending the money was a nice bonus.

Now that I have my new essential knife line up, I can be patient and wait for some of the sexier toys to come available.


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## ThEoRy (May 31, 2015)

End game. lol


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## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> End game. lol





Please don't pop my fantasy bubble.









I'm allowed to lie to myself and pretend I have an end game right?






Damascus blade, with dark etching like a Hattori.







Small tight swirls like the Saji R2







Full tang, octagon handle







Integrated bolster


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## Culverin (May 31, 2015)

And a burly handle.


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## kevpenbanc (May 31, 2015)

I have the 210 hana and it is an extremely good cutter, better than my 240 Tadatsuna laser. It gets a stinky edge and keeps it for ages, it is, for my tastes, a very well balanced knife. I also never got the sense of fragility with the Takamura that I sometimes get with the Tadatsuna.
It was, until a week or two ago, the best knife I had.
I then got my hands on a 270 Tanaka Ironwood R2. This knife literally glides through food. I have never experienced anything like it, it is noticeably better than the Takamura - not a lot, but it is noticeable.
If I were to choose between the two, I'd pick the Tanaka. 
If I'd never tried the Tanaka, I'd be (indeed was) extremely happy with the Takamura Hana.
Enjoy the shopping experience


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 1, 2015)

tjangula said:


> I know that my regular Takamura R2 (Red handle) 180mm gyuto is 1.6-1.8mm. I also have a HSPS Pro 240mm and it is thicker, but I haven't measured it yet, ditto for my Hanas.
> 
> I have some digital callipers so can check the 600MCD and the Takamuras. I'll also post a picture when I have time to upload (my iPhone is a pos and doesn't even have enough memory to take a picture)



The digital calipers have 0.01mm percision (+/- 0.03mm IIRC). I tired to just round to the nearst 0.05mm where practicable, also becasue it would bounce around a bit even when I would zero them and return to zero as a check.

Spine thickness above heel/choil:

Miyabi 600MCD Gyuto: 2.2mm
Takamura Hana Santoku: 2.05mm
Takamura HSPS Pro 240 Gyuto: 3.1mm
Takamura R2 180 Gyuto: 1.7mm


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 1, 2015)

Pics or it didn't happen:


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## bkdc (Jun 1, 2015)

Even Takeshi Saji sends his blades to Takamura for heat treatment. Takamura apparently knows knows how to treat SG-2 steel.

If you compare the distal 1/3 of the Takamura Blazen to the thinner red-handled Takamura, you'll see that the distal portions of the knife are equally thin. That Blazen will fly through product if you tip-chop.

I owned that Takamura Hana santoku once. I gave it to my ex-gf who then gave it to her mother. Man... I bet that gorgeous knife has been destroyed.

I love your mirror finishes! Sexy! Or maybe it's just the way the photos came out.

It looks like all those knives with the tight swirlies are using the same source of cladding for the warikomi construction.


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## Culverin (Jun 1, 2015)

Wow. Guys. Thanks for all the info.
I knew the Takamura Hana ticked a bunch of boxes for me and being gorgeous helps.
But I didn't know was *that *thin.
That that reason, the Takamura R2 has always been on my mind.

hmmm, the Miyabi is still the cheapest of the lot.
And by a fair margin :scratchhead:
I want them all. 


Maybe I'll get the Miyabi now,
then the Takamura Hana next, and eventually the Tanaka.



tjangula,
Short of the Tanaka Ironwood, it seems you own all the knives I've been considering.
Any thoughts?


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## Livlif (Jun 1, 2015)

A Miyabi 600MC just got post in the fir sale section. It has a BEAUTIFUL handle. 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...to-600MC-8-inch-Gyuto-Amboyna-burlwood-handle


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 1, 2015)

bkdc said:


> If you compare the distal 1/3 of the Takamura Blazen to the thinner red-handled Takamura, you'll see that the distal portions of the knife are equally thin. That Blazen will fly through product if you tip-chop.
> 
> ...
> 
> I love your mirror finishes! Sexy! Or maybe it's just the way the photos came out.



Ya I can't say that the thickness of the Pro has been a problem, glides thru onions in nice horizontal motions. I do find that cutting cabbages tend to stick to the side more than my Misono Swedish steel (basically just "pops" off when it touches the cutting board) but that's not an end all comparison and why most have more than one knife.

It must be the way the pics came in, I haven't mirror polished. There are some mineral deposits visible on the bottom two Takamuras from cutting a lot of celery, kale and spinach. Can scrape off with your finger nail but not that big a deal yet.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 1, 2015)

Culverin said:


> tjangula,
> Short of the Tanaka Ironwood, it seems you own all the knives I've been considering.
> Any thoughts?



Well I like the Miyabi because it's ZDP and not too tall (although I do also like tall blades), I find the "overall package" well executed with this knife. It fits in the standard 210mm gyuto saya well. I wish it was a wa handle but may rehandle at some point along with the matching parer (probably just yo style instead of a conversion). The Damascus is basically mirror polished, I mentioned because iirc you had indicated a preference for the darker Damascus. Another plus is the price and the fact Henckels will stand behind it (easy warranty if defective)

That said the Hana seems to have more character, and the R2 is a knife I wouldn't want to be without. I I could only have three knives it'd probably be the HSPS Pro 240 gyuto, 270 Suji and 130 petty (plus a beater or two for rough work )

I also have noticed your aversion to carbon and tradition wa handles with stick tang. I would recommend venturing into these territories at some point. I find that in general carbon isn't as reactive as the fear mongering has us believe, and the options are endless for handles with the traditional wa style (check out some of our vendors, or email me if you want some particular info), they are actually really comfortable and the F&F is good. This is just part of my personal preference so it may not apply to your cooking situation (perhaps carbon is unsuitable?), but just wanted to mention as other options to keep in mind.

Feel free to ask if there are any other questions.


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## Culverin (Jun 1, 2015)

hmmmm,

Just got back from looking at the 600MCD at the shop.
The black is a bit glossy. And the bolster is polished. Didn't like that, but not a deal breaker.

Feels heavy though. 
I thought this 600D was acceptable, but this felt heavier for some reason, but the dimension seem identical.
I might have to go back again.


tjangula, you don't happen to have its weights handy?

Takamura R2 = 147g
600D = 197g
Tojiro DP = 199g
Yoshikane SKD Western = 247g

Takamura Hana = ?
600MCD = ?


I know carbon isn't that bad. My Yoshikane has a reactive core. 
You're right, I might have to look towards a wa-handle.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 2, 2015)

Culverin said:


> hmmmm,
> 
> Just got back from looking at the 600MCD at the shop.
> The black is a bit glossy. And the bolster is polished. Didn't like that, but not a deal breaker.
> ...



I'll get the weights after work and update. I'm not a fan of the stock handle on the 600mcd, although the liners are a nice touch. Good excuse to rehandle.

My bad about the carbon remark, I'm not very familiar with Yoshikane. I may also retract my previous comment about my three Takamura HSPS Pro knives, I do like them a lot, and they certainly would are adequate, but I should have also included a Carter, Shig and/or Watanabe.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 2, 2015)

tjangula said:


> I'll get the weights after work and update...



As promised, with kitchen scale accurate to 1g (wasn't going to bust out the 0.1g scale):

Miyabi 600-MCD Gyuto - 215g
Takamura Hana santoku - 155g


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