# Which is the best laser?



## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

Stupid question, but which are the best laser gyutos and how exactly do people use these? Is the preferred length for a laser different from a person's preferred length for a more typical gyuto?


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## BillHanna (Jul 25, 2020)

I truly appreciate your efforts to drive conversation, and get ideas for yourself, but you’ll do better by asking “what’s your favorite and why” as opposed to “what’s the best”, I believe.


It’s hard to be new in an established community, sometimes. You can end up asking people to talk about things they’ve already talked about. I DO think you’re asking good questions, though.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> I truly appreciate your efforts to drive conversation, and get ideas for yourself, but you’ll do better by asking “what’s your favorite and why” as opposed to “what’s the best”, I believe.


Yeah, that's what I was hoping for. I looked through some old threads but couldn't pick out the details except for the epic Konosuke Fujiyama history.


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## soigne_west (Jul 25, 2020)

Also, the search tool works wel. Questions like these have been asked multiple times over.


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## dafox (Jul 25, 2020)

This will get you started:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw39WpmyRCCURb1P4KZ3PcqA[/URL]


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

Link is broken.


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## dafox (Jul 25, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Link is broken.








Lasers- current state of play


You seem a Tad short.....:cool2: :rofl2:




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

Thanks, for some reason this didn't come up when I searched old laser threads. But I'm still confused as even that thread lists some names without saying much about each, and there is a persistent debate on which knives are really in the laser category. Also, none of the old threads have an answer to whether you would prefer a different knife length from your typical favored length if you buy a laser.


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## Cliff (Jul 25, 2020)

I think of Konosuke HD2 and stainless, Ashi Ginga, Suisin inox honyaki, Takamura, and Shibata as archetypal lasers. Current generation KS's are close, to me, but not quite. I like lasers for fine work and smaller tasks. I use a 210 Ginga petty all the time as an all-purpose knife. But for bigger prep, I tend to prefer a little more heft.


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## dafox (Jul 25, 2020)

Many of the laser knives are made in Sakai, a city in Japan, they measure blade length from the machi, the step between the tang and the neck to the tip. Some other makers measure blade length from the heel to the tip. So, the Sakai knives blades are shorter. Also, Sakai lasers are very light especially with a wa handle. When getting a Sakai laser you might prefer to "round up in size". A 210 Sakai laser gyuto in use seems much smaller than say a 210 Sanjo made Wakui gyuto.


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## Cliff (Jul 25, 2020)

dafox said:


> Many of the laser knives are made in Sakai, a city in Japan, they measure blade length from the machi, the step between the tang and the neck to the tip. Some other makers measure blade length from the heel to the tip. So, the Sakai knives blades are shorter. Also, Sakai lasers are very light especially with a wa handle. When getting a Sakai laser you might prefer to "round up in size". A 210 Sakai laser gyuto in use seems much smaller than say a 210 Sanjo made Wakui gyuto.



Yes, this. You might also consider a Western handle -- it should help the knife feel more stable and substantial.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

Do you want the handle to add weight, or would you prefer that the knife be lighter overall? And would you prefer a shorter, more nimble length compared to your usual (assuming you are measuring the same way)? For example, does anyone love a 270 mm laser gyuto?


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## Cliff (Jul 25, 2020)

If I were to use a laser as a one-and-done travel knife, I'd want the Western handle for heft and stability. If I had it to do again, I'd likely get a 270 HD2, which is undersized. But I have a 270 KS, so it seems redundant.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

Thanks, why 270?


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## Cliff (Jul 25, 2020)

It's just a question of preference. A bigger Gyuto provides better leverage and more blade to work with. The lasers are so nimble that I have no trouble brunoise-ing a shallot with that size blade.


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## M1k3 (Jul 25, 2020)

Just like many things in life, what one person likes and thinks is the best, someone else will think is trash. And opinions in between.

People can give suggestions, but ultimately, your preferences will determine what is a "Grail" knife to you.


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## esoo (Jul 25, 2020)

Shibata Kotetsu Bunka 180 in R2
Konosuke HD2 210
And depending on what you get weight wise, Kono FM 210 in White 2. 

All great laser cutters.


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## daveb (Jul 25, 2020)

I like a laser 180. Almost certainly working on small product in small space. Mine's a Gesshin Ginga.

I don't use a 210 much but do have Tad INOX. It's the one I offer to cooking partners.

My "work" knives are 240. Ive had lasers this size but don't like em. I wanna get stuff done.

Back to lasers with a 270. The added heft makes them feel normal, and they can work thru a pile of big stuff making it into little stuff. Mine are a a Kono HD2 and Suisin IH K-tip. Love the Suisin.


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## Gabriel M (Jul 25, 2020)

Hello

OOTB ...Takamura R2







A little tuning...Handle is changed to Ebony Wood
I changed the angle from 14 to 30 degrees....so its more useful






All time the Suizid IH and Custom Xerxes ( German knife maker )






regards 

Gabe


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## Matus (Jul 25, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Also, the search tool works wel. Questions like these have been asked multiple times over.



The man is right - and I happen to know that with a very good accuracy - because I started a slew of such threads back in the day myself  

Search engine works and delivers results, but I do understand that often we just need people to talk to us and helps us choose.

P.S. What DaveB says makes a lot of sense ... most of the time


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

daveb said:


> My "work" knives are 240. Ive had lasers this size but don't like em. I wanna get stuff done.
> 
> Back to lasers with a 270. The added heft makes them feel normal, and they can work thru a pile of big stuff making it into little stuff.


Heh, so do you prefer lasers that are 210 or 270 mm? Or it depends?


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

esoo said:


> Shibata Kotetsu Bunka 180 in R2
> Konosuke HD2 210
> And depending on what you get weight wise, Kono FM 210 in White 2.


Thanks, why do you list the Kono FM third, and why the 180 or 210 mm recommendation?


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## daveb (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Heh, so do you prefer lasers that are 210 or 270 mm? Or it depends?



180 and 270 are sizes I specifically selected lasers for, for reasons cited above.

I have two 210s, one I'm comfotable with guests using - it happens to be a laser.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

Would it make sense to consider a 150 mm laser petty over a 180 mm laser gyuto in that first context?


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## daveb (Jul 26, 2020)

I not only considered it, i bought one. Then I sold it.

You need to do what makes sense for you. If you think you might like something then buy it and see. Great thing about bst is that you can arrive at your own conclusions first hand. If you don't like something it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. You can resell it for a (usually) small "usage tax".


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## McMan (Jul 26, 2020)

Some good advice in this thread. Great starting point. Search button is your friend to research the knives people are discussing here.


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## PappaG (Jul 26, 2020)

Would a Takeda be considered a laser?


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## QCDawg (Jul 26, 2020)

I’ve had em all. Suisin Inox Honyaki 240 is my fave of the laser gyutos. I also have a 210 HD petty I like a lot. Ashi ginga best for the money...


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## Ruso (Jul 26, 2020)

Size 220-240mm
My favorite laser is Markin standard gyuto.


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## esoo (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Thanks, why do you list the Kono FM third, and why the 180 or 210 mm recommendation?


This is based on knives I've actually handled. I'm a home cook so 210 is my wheelhouse. 

The FM is only on there third as it depends on the knife you get. The White 2 210 was listed as 132g, but my knife came in at 117g which I consider a laser.


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## Cliff (Jul 26, 2020)

daveb said:


> ...
> 
> You need to do what makes sense for you. If you think you might like something then buy it and see. Great thing about bst is that you can arrive at your own conclusions first hand. If you don't like something it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. You can resell it for a (usually) small "usage tax".



This. 

I have a 150 Ginga petty. Keep in mind that it's from Sakai and runs small. It's great to supreme fruit, but it's on the small side. What do you want the knife for? Getting a bigger petty or small suji would work as a utility knife, but those aren't as good at getting into small spaces.


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## Cliff (Jul 26, 2020)

PappaG said:


> Would a Takeda be considered a laser?



I don't think there's universal consensus. They are thin, for sure. I think of mine as a do-almost-everything for those who like thin knives. The S-grind makes it feel beefy next to my HD2 and Gingas.


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## jacko9 (Jul 26, 2020)

I have never seen a definition for a "laser" knife. To my way of thinking it a tall thin knife thats very thin behind the edge (at least thats my definition). I've had a Konosuke HD2 240 Gyuto that was sold as a laser and I have had a 240 FT Konosuke Fujiyama that seemed much thinner as an example of the confusion around labels like laser and workhorse. There seem to be no simple answers, just buy one and try it for yourself.


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## M1k3 (Jul 26, 2020)

Sakai Yusuke extra thin


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

esoo said:


> The FM is only on there third as it depends on the knife you get. The White 2 210 was listed as 132g, but my knife came in at 117g which I consider a laser.


Thanks, I thought you meant, the way it was worded, that getting the FM depended on which of the other two knives you get...


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## esoo (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Thanks, I thought you meant, the way it was worded, that getting the FM depended on which of the other two knives you get...



I have a review thread of the FM vs the HD2 - bottom line for the knives I got is the choice between the two really comes down to which steel do you want.


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## deanb (Jul 26, 2020)

I have a Suisin 270 mm Inox Honyaki gyuto and a 210 mm petty. Both are lasers. RHC 61 which I think is a very good hardness for kitchen knives. The petty is a great fillet knife and the gyuto can make incredibly thin cuts. Easy to sharpen and they hold an edge for a long time.


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## Jville (Jul 26, 2020)

The best laser: the one I have coming from Kipp .


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## kingdingelling (Jul 27, 2020)

Seem's to be not very popular but cuts like hell...Kei Kobayashi


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## Hamso k (Jul 27, 2020)

So first off in my opinion "best laser" is a difficult one. If by best you mean which laser is the sharpest, has the best geometry and edge retention, then this knife isn't it. But in my experience, I haven't enjoyed using a knife more. The knife I'm talking about is a Takayuki TUS 210mm. It's a softer (probably <60hrc), stainless line designed to be used in pro kitchens. Softer knives are much better suited for this type of environment as they are much more durable.

I'm a full time soup cook and do my own prep. Usually that means at least 20qts of mirepoix a day plus whatever other vegetables are going in (lots of butternut). I had a nightmare time trying to find a knife that worked for me. All I wanted was a knife I didn't have to baby that was still a really good knife. I finally found this one and was super happy with it. I didn't have to worry about being gentle with every cut I made, I didn't have to worry if it accidentally fell on the floor, and I didn't have to worry if, God forbid, one of my coworkers got ahold of it. On top of all that, it was a laser, which in my experience, are unrivaled when it comes to doing long stretches of repetitive vegetable prep. I've used fancier knives as well including a thick Kurosaki and an laser Akifusa nakiri (both Blue Super). In my experience, I didn't notice much of a difference in edge retention and the takayuki was just as, if not sharper when I first bought it (theres a good chance the shop I bought it from put the edge on. I'll have to ask them if they ever open back up). It could fly through butternut for an entire month before needing to hit the stones.

This is just one of a handful of stainless lasers on the market. There are other options. I'm saving up to buy a replacement. The handle is super small and the f&f sucks. Plus its seen its fair share of abuse. I'm still not sure what to get next but I know it will be something very similar.

If you're looking for a laser to do more delicate work then this kind of knife probably isn't the right choice. But in my opinion, there's something to be said about soft stainless lasers. Does that make them "better" than a more delicate, more expensive laser that can take a slightly better edge and stay marginally sharper for slightly longer? Depends on who you ask. I'm not a knife expert. I have a cooks mentality. For me, knives are tools and the best tool is one that can do what it's supposed to do really well for a long time without breaking. What's the point of having a super expensive tool if it's just going to break the first time you drop it?


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## labor of love (Jul 27, 2020)

Historically a laser just meant a super light thin knife with thin spine usually mono steel and usually produced In Sakai. In the past few years just about anything thin and light gets called a laser. 
My fave would be Suisin Inox Honyaki or Tadatsuna (for sell at aframes).


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## rickbern (Jul 27, 2020)

kingdingelling said:


> Seem's to be not very popular but cuts like hell...Kei Kobayashi


Best background ever for a choil shot!


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 27, 2020)

Used Sakai Yusuke extra thin 240 a lot at work wore one down bought another. You can't get them anymore. 

Going through lots of prep with a thin blade that falls through food works for me. 

My bang for the buck laser is 240 Ikazuchi.


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## kingdingelling (Jul 27, 2020)

rickbern said:


> Best background ever for a choil shot!



Lago di Lugano, Italy


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## Ruso (Jul 27, 2020)

kingdingelling said:


> Seem's to be not very popular but cuts like hell...Kei Kobayashi


Damn nice view!


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 1, 2020)

Cliff said:


> You might also consider a Western handle -- it should help the knife feel more stable and substantial.


But isn't it possible to have a knife that feels unbalanced (even if it isn't) given a very thin blade and a heavier handle like a Western or a heavier wood like ebony?


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## parbaked (Aug 1, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> But isn't it possible to have a knife that feels unbalanced (even if it isn't) given a very thin blade and a heavier handle like a Western or a heavier wood like ebony?


Western lasers, e.g. Takamura & Ashi, have thin tangs and light handle material so they are well balanced.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

Any input on choosing between a laser with a Western versus wa handle? I guess a wa handle laser gyuto could be really light, about 150 grams or less, and one might enjoy having the option for a long, thin and very light knife on the rack?

Is it right that very generally (to the extent one can generalize), people say the Suisin Inox Honyaki might be slightly better quality than the Ashi Ginga but is much more expensive? Any advice on how one might decide to get a R2 laser like a Shibata over the Suisin or Ashi? I know these are all good knives and have their similarities, just asking how one might pick between one's last 3-4 choices before just buying one to try.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

deanb said:


> I have a Suisin 270 mm Inox Honyaki gyuto and a 210 mm petty.


Would this be your choice of lengths if you could choose any lengths again for the Suisin Inox Honyaki, or was this choice to complement existing gyutos? Curious as Suisin has a 210 and 180 mm petty, imagine those would be fun to use as an alternative to the more typical 130-150s.


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## M1k3 (Aug 2, 2020)

Ginga, Takamura or Suisin INOX. Pick one that appeals to you.

Bless your heart.


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## madelinez (Aug 2, 2020)

I've got a 190mm REX-121 laser from @Andrei, it actually has better food release than most of my mid-weight gyutos. I don't normally like lasers but Andrei really nails that grind. Even though it's a high carbide steel I always use it for sushi/sashimi, it just works.


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## Ruso (Aug 2, 2020)

Deleted.


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## jlm46 (Aug 2, 2020)

For my gyutos my preferred size is 240 but I use a 180mm Stainless Ashi Ginga as a petty knife. Very nimble and gets used quite a lot coz of the size. I do wish it has better edge retention though so maybe a takamura r2 is a good upgrade. Good luck with the hunt...


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## daveb (Aug 2, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Ginga, Takamura or Suisin INOX. Pick one that appeals to you.
> 
> Bless your heart.



You spelled Tadasuna wrong.

Bless your heart


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

jlm46 said:


> I use a 180mm Stainless Ashi Ginga as a petty knife. Very nimble and gets used quite a lot coz of the size. I do wish it has better edge retention


Could I ask about the context of edge retention? I thought the Suisin Inox Honyaki and Ashi Ginga were both fairly good on edge retention.


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## daveb (Aug 2, 2020)

I asked the same question several years ago. Recall that answer was Ginga is margially easier to sharpen. SIH has marginally better retention. I went with the GG and then later added a SIH and later still a Tad. I could not discern a difference.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

Thanks, that's really helpful. Just to close that off, would there be any non-marginal difference if you compare against the R2 lasers like the Shibatas, which are at a higher price point?

Also, any input on choosing between a laser with a Western versus wa handle? For example, does anyone pick the Suisin among very similar lasers because it has a wa handle and you would end up with one of the lightest gyutos liked over here, and something you can get slightly longer than your favored length because it would be so light?


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## M1k3 (Aug 2, 2020)

Handle is more of preference of style. They're all designed with the balance point right around the pinch grip point.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

Yes but specifically in the case of a laser gyuto, anyone pick a wa handle with the intention of buying one of the lightest gyutos possible for the size?


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## M1k3 (Aug 2, 2020)

Me personally, no. Just picked what looked interesting and bought it.


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## daveb (Aug 2, 2020)

Read more, type less, spend some money.

I know your concerns but you've pretty well flogged this to death. You've asked and re-asked the whole gamut of questions. And have received, multiple times, the same answers. You need to do some primary research. It's not like you're marrying a knife - if you don't like one, give it the boot and get another.


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## jacko9 (Aug 2, 2020)

daveb said:


> Read more, type less, spend some money.
> 
> I know your concerns but you've pretty well flogged this to death. You need to do some primary research. It's not like you're marrying a knife - if you don't like one, give it the boot.


Got the post count up in a very short time - writing a book?


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## panda (Aug 2, 2020)

lasers suck


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

daveb said:


> You need to do some primary research. It's not like you're marrying a knife - if you don't like one, give it the boot and get another.


thanks for your patience. As I explained, international shipping is a *****.


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## M1k3 (Aug 2, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> thanks for your patience. As I explained, international shipping is a *****.


Razor sharp


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## juice (Aug 2, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> thanks for your patience. As I explained, international shipping is a *****.


Well, it's Monday, local shops are about to open.


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## deanb (Aug 2, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Would this be your choice of lengths if you could choose any lengths again for the Suisin Inox Honyaki, or was this choice to complement existing gyutos? Curious as Suisin has a 210 and 180 mm petty, imagine those would be fun to use as an alternative to the more typical 130-150s.


Collecting kitchen knives is my hobby. I have a modest (by this forum’s standards) collection of about 60 knives. There is a lot of duplication but I love the 270 mm length and the Suisin Inox Honyaki is my favorite. The thing I like most about the 210 mm petty is that it’s a great fillet knife and it surely is a laser. These knives are rated as HRC 61 and (as I said before) I think that is a great hardness for kitchen knives. Easy to sharpen, doesn’t chip easily, and holds an edge for a long time. For example I haven’t had to put the gyuto to the stones for a couple years (and I use it a lot) just a few swipes on a borosilicate rod and strop on a chromium oxide loaded striop and it’s back to razor sharpness.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

Thanks, that’s a very, very helpful comment. To clarify, you mean you have a number of 270mm gyutos (which not everyone wants) but the Suisin is still your favorite among all your 270s?


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

60 is modest... the nature of the rabbit hole dawns...


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## RockyBasel (Aug 3, 2020)

kingdingelling said:


> Seem's to be not very popular but cuts like hell...Kei Kobayashi


Agree - have the 240 mm Gyuto - melts through food, great cutter, not the best food release, but good knife


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## RockyBasel (Aug 3, 2020)

rickbern said:


> Best background ever for a choil shot!


I know! Looks like lake como or maggiore or a Swiss lake


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 3, 2020)

I’ve owned a 240 Tad white 2, a 240 Shibata AS, a 240 Shibata R2, a 240 Kono GS+, and a 170 Takamura R2 Santoku. I like CCK 1303 as a laser than all of these. It has the lower 3-4 cm as thin as any laser if not thinner, and the upper 4-5 cm adding some weight to further help cutting. The overall weight is 250-260 gram so it doesn’t feel too light on hand. The balance point is ~6 cm from the heel which makes chopping very natural. And it’s cheap. I thinned it behind the edge a little and it’s now my favorite laser. The edge retention could be improved but for its price I can’t ask more.


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## kingdingelling (Aug 4, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> I know! Looks like lake como or maggiore or a Swiss lake



Italian side of Lago di Lugano


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## kingdingelling (Aug 4, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Agree - have the 240 mm Gyuto - melts through food, great cutter, not the best food release, but good knife



That's the knife I should have bought. Mine was 210 mm but today 240 mm works best for me. Replaced it with an Ashi extra thin, extra harden, swedisch steel in 240 mm. Also a great cutter! They a very close. The Kobayashi is gone several month ago, so it's hard to make out a difference...


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## zizirex (Aug 4, 2020)

daveb said:


> Read more, type less, spend some money.
> 
> I know your concerns but you've pretty well flogged this to death. You've asked and re-asked the whole gamut of questions. And have received, multiple times, the same answers. You need to do some primary research. It's not like you're marrying a knife - if you don't like one, give it the boot and get another.


There will be another thread for sure.. just wait and see..


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## Byphy (Aug 4, 2020)

Plot twist.. they're all the same. Suisin IH bc they have the best stock handle.


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## toddnmd (Aug 4, 2020)

zizirex said:


> There will be another thread for sure.. just wait and see..



Wanna bet?


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## labor of love (Aug 4, 2020)

toddnmd said:


> Wanna bet?


No more Jose threads? You got some insider baseball?


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## juice (Aug 4, 2020)

labor of love said:


> No more Jose threads? You got some insider baseball?


Maybe they're gonna shut down the internet?


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## daveb (Aug 4, 2020)

zizirex said:


> There will be another thread for sure.. just wait and see..





toddnmd said:


> Wanna bet?



A pool? My money is on 3 more before the weekend ends.

And for any casual observer - we like questions, we live for questions, nothing better than helping someone else spend their money. But if you're going to ask the questions, you gotta read the answers.


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## juice (Aug 4, 2020)

daveb said:


> And for any casual observer - we like questions, we live for quwstions, nothing better than helping someone else spend their money. But if you're going to ask the questions, you gotta read the answers.


 The selective responding to posts in the many threads has been both amusing and extremely obvious


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## toddnmd (Aug 4, 2020)

labor of love said:


> No more Jose threads? You got some insider baseball?



Well, to be fair, I’d want some odds. How about my Forschner paring knife against a 240 Kato WH? Any takers?


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## deanb (Aug 4, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Thanks, that’s a very, very helpful comment. To clarify, you mean you have a number of 270mm gyutos (which not everyone wants) but the Suisin is still your favorite among all your 270s?


Yes, I also have Hattori and a Nenox. All the 270s are fun to use but the Suisin is my favorite. I love it.


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## labor of love (Aug 4, 2020)

toddnmd said:


> Well, to be fair, I’d want some odds. How about my Forschner paring knife against a 240 Kato WH? Any takers?


Bro you lost. @josemartinlopez already pulled the trigger.


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## guitarmanchu (Aug 4, 2020)

CJA and it's not even close. For me.


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## YumYumSauce (Aug 5, 2020)

My 1st "holy **** thats sharp" experience was with a Gesshin Ginga petty. Lasers are fun.

Wait I lied, 1st time was when I was playing with my grandpas razor when I was 5 and cut my chin. Still have the scar.


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## waruixd (Sep 11, 2020)

Konosuke always hits the spot.


edit: not a photo of Konosuke


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## RockyBasel (Sep 11, 2020)

deanb said:


> Collecting kitchen knives is my hobby. I have a modest (by this forum’s standards) collection of about 60 knives. There is a lot of duplication but I love the 270 mm length and the Suisin Inox Honyaki is my favorite. The thing I like most about the 210 mm petty is that it’s a great fillet knife and it surely is a laser. These knives are rated as HRC 61 and (as I said before) I think that is a great hardness for kitchen knives. Easy to sharpen, doesn’t chip easily, and holds an edge for a long time. For example I haven’t had to put the gyuto to the stones for a couple years (and I use it a lot) just a few swipes on a borosilicate rod and strop on a chromium oxide loaded striop and it’s back to razor sharpness.


60 knives! Wow, that is not a “modest” Collection - that’s quite a bunch of knives. How many would have much more?


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## RockyBasel (Sep 11, 2020)

kingdingelling said:


> Italian side of Lago di Lugano


 Just back from lake como last weekend - views are amazing and food is always better in the Italian side


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## RockyBasel (Sep 11, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Thanks, that’s a very, very helpful comment. To clarify, you mean you have a number of 270mm gyutos (which not everyone wants) but the Suisin is still your favorite among all your 270s?


@JML, how many knives in your collection? And which ones are your favorites so far - I am not suggesting we make this a new thread, but I think you bought Jiro and Mazaki, don’t know. Would be good to know what you have collected so far, and which ones rank as your favorites so far. What types of food do you usually use them for and I presume you are a home cook - thanks


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## tchan001 (Sep 11, 2020)

RockyBasel is trying to play knife poker with JML.

I'll call your Jiro and Mazaki and raise you a Togashi-tosa.
What have you got?


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 11, 2020)

panda said:


> lasers suck


This thread is all over the place, but there's one point I'd like to make. I think most lasers suck because the manufacturers don't put a lot of effort into them. Just take a 2mm bar of steel and grind it down. This makes a knife that's too flexible and weirdly both too blade heavy and too lightweight. Feels awkward to me.

But having just handled the Yoshikane Amekiri, I have a new appreciation for what a laser could be. I think it'd be better if more makers incorporated strong distal taper and focused on creating an optimally thin grind instead of the absolutely thinnest knife.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 11, 2020)

tchan001 said:


> RockyBasel is trying to play knife poker with JML.
> 
> I'll call your Jiro and Mazaki and raise you a Togashi-tosa.
> What have you got?


 you nailed it. But I am serious, I want to m ow what cards @JML got!


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## birdsfan (Sep 11, 2020)

I bet I am knocking on the door of 60 knives, though most of them are nothing to get excited about, I have a full range of Wusthof classic, a pretty good selection of Shun, a variety of Japanese starter knives. Took me that long to discover that in most cases you really get what you pay for. Wish I had all that money back, I could get one of those Kato on BST and perhaps a Shig.

But to get back on topic, my first real laser was a Makato SG2. It is fun to use. Really glides through food, but that food does stick to the blade face, like most lasers. I have found that I prefer a beefier spine which allows for a convex grind. Perhaps it is my long standing relationship with heavier German blades, but the light weight of most lasers makes me feel like I need to baby them.


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## Jville (Sep 11, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> you nailed it. But I am serious, I want to m ow what cards @JML got!


He's holding more than just a Jiro and Mazaki thats for sure.


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## zizirex (Sep 11, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> This thread is all over the place, but there's one point I'd like to make. I think most lasers suck because the manufacturers don't put a lot of effort into them. Just take a 2mm bar of steel and grind it down. This makes a knife that's too flexible and weirdly both too blade heavy and too lightweight. Feels awkward to me.
> 
> But having just handled the Yoshikane Amekiri, I have a new appreciation for what a laser could be. I think it'd be better if more makers incorporated strong distal taper and focused on creating an optimally thin grind instead of the absolutely thinnest knife.


I love laser, Not everyone is a big fan Porsche, so everyone has their preference. I feel weird when I am holding axe-knife like Mazaki. it's not my cup of tea, and laser and mid-grind are perfect for me because, for food ingredients that I use, that is what works and feels best for me.

and Also, Food Release is stupid.


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## daveb (Sep 11, 2020)

Food release is not important (or shouldn't be) to most home cooks. Even at it's worst, cut and wipe doesn't take very long.

But if you've got a case(s) of big stuff to make into small stuff it becomes more critical. I like lasers for home but not so much at work.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 11, 2020)

I think it also depends on the level of stickiness. If the ingredient sticks to the left side of the blade badly, it would become annoy even at home.


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## MowgFace (Sep 11, 2020)

I’m probably around 60 knives as well. Similar to @birdsfan half are globals or the like from a previous life.




spaceconvoy said:


> But having just handled the Yoshikane Amekiri, I have a new appreciation for what a laser could be. I think it'd be better if more makers incorporated strong distal taper and focused on creating an optimally thin grind instead of the absolutely thinnest knife.



I know what you mean. Although not considered lasers, mid weight knives with distal taper and thin grinds are my favorite, then thicker “workhorses.” En Ginsanko to me is what I wish lasers were. JUST slightly thicker with distal taper.

Unfortunately the thinner the knife the less real estate for convexity. They are inherently sticky. Though I’d argue manufacturers don’t put less effort into them, but by design are sub optimal in food release and lean towards moving through food.


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## Barmoley (Sep 12, 2020)

daveb said:


> Food release is not important (or shouldn't be) to most home cooks. Even at it's worst, cut and wipe doesn't take very long.
> 
> But if you've got a case(s) of big stuff to make into small stuff it becomes more critical. I like lasers for home but not so much at work.


It's annoying to me especially when ingredients stick badly. Yes you can wipe it but it is annoying. Slight cracking of carrots on the other hand is not a big deal and a mystery why people care. Then again I don't use that many carrots and as long as the knife doesn't wedge badly and ultimately cuts through them cleanly doesn't bother me.


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## bonody (Sep 12, 2020)

MowgFace said:


> Unfortunately the thinner the knife the less real estate for convexity. They are inherently sticky. Though I’d argue manufacturers don’t put less effort into them, but by design are sub optimal in food release and lean towards moving through food.



I think you hit the nail on the head here. I have a SG2 Makoto Kurosaki Gyuto, AS Kotetsu Gyuto, and a Gesshin Ginga Gyuto... I think all of these fit the laser category and all of them have very poor food release. Its the nature of the grind, I think. Granted, these are relatively mid-tier knives, I'll stick to using a knife with more of a workhorse grind when I don't want food sticking to blade.

I've also personally been eyeing something like the Hitohira Tanaka x Kyuzo Gyutos which are extremely thing behind the edge but have lots of convexity. Does anyone know if these knives also suffer from food release issues?


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## zizirex (Sep 12, 2020)

bonody said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head here. I have a SG2 Makoto Kurosaki Gyuto, AS Kotetsu Gyuto, and a Gesshin Ginga Gyuto... I think all of these fit the laser category and all of them have very poor food release. Its the nature of the grind, I think. Granted, these are relatively mid-tier knives, I'll stick to using a knife with more of a workhorse grind when I don't want food sticking to blade.
> 
> I've also personally been eyeing something like the Hitohira Tanaka x Kyuzo Gyutos which are extremely thing behind the edge but have lots of convexity. Does anyone know if these knives also suffer from food release issues?


Kyuzo knives are all wide bevel. So I'm guessing it's better at food release. If you're saying convexity (Hamaguri), it's probably the Yohei one


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 12, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> This thread is all over the place, but there's one point I'd like to make. I think most lasers suck because the manufacturers don't put a lot of effort into them. Just take a 2mm bar of steel and grind it down.


I agree with you but from a different perspective. Most lasers are not thin enough behind the edge to me, and I think it’s probably because of the easier volume production process or less efforts made as you said. In the $300 catogary, some Sanjo knives are thinner behind the edge and have smaller bevel/edge which leads to better performance. KnS Yoshikane as an example...speaking of ootb performance, it cuts potato and carrot better than any of my lasers including Tad white 2, Kono GS+, Kono HD2, Shibata AS and Shibata R2. I spent hours thinning my tad white 2 to almost zero bevel when I had it, which significantly improved its performance on carrots. 

IMHO another 2 factors that could negatively affect the performance of lasers are Weight and Stiffness. 

The weight of a knife helps cut as “resistance <= knife weight + human force”. When the resistance is same, the heavier a knife is, the less force one needs to apply in cutting. One can argue that lasers are thinner so they see less resistance which offset the lack of weight. I found that not true because we are cutting mainly with the lower 2 cm of the knife because of the common convexity in the upper part of the geometry. Even when cutting a 6 cm tall carrot, if a knife wedges it usually start to wedge when it is 2 cm deep in the carrot. I don’t see a knife starts to wedge only after it’s 4-5 cm deep in carrots. With proper grind and distal taper, some mid weight knives are as thin as a typical laser in the lower 2 cm part of the geometry, so they see the similar level of resistance and their larger weight will make them cut easier.

Speaking of the stiffness, it matters in cutting large dense ingredients. With 8-10 cm tall sweet potatoes or some type of pumpkins, it’s unlikely a knife can cut them with one stroke. When we have to push the back of a knife to finish a cut, lasers are more likely to slightly twist and become stuck/wedge in it especially when the ingredient is not stable on the cutting surface. The strength of a midweight or a workhorse knife really makes a difference to me for this use case.


Now go back to the best laser question. I replied earlier that I think CCK 1303 is the best laser I’ve tried because it’s thin, heavy and relatively stiffer. It’s 0.15 mm thick right above the edge which is on par with most lasers I have. It’s easy to thin though. Its lower 4 cm of the grind is very thin, even thinner than most gyuto lasers. It’s ~250 gram which not only feels good in hand but also provides additional cutting force. And it’s so tall that it feels stiffer than gyuto lasers although it’s still not the workhorse type stiff. The steel could be improved though.


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## Byphy (Sep 12, 2020)

knife skills > grind
kanji > everything

most knives are great. it all comes down to personal preference. just learn how to use it properly and stop splitting hairs over differences when no one will ever 100% agree w each other anyway. 

maybe this should go into "unpopular opinions"


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## juice (Sep 12, 2020)

Byphy said:


> maybe this should go into "unpopular opinions"


Maybe we should start a "sensible opinions" thread, and then lock it after one post.


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## Kippington (Sep 12, 2020)

juice said:


> Maybe we should start a "sensible opinions" thread, and then lock it after one post.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

Why are we comparing Sanjo gyutos to laser gyutos and cleavers?


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## JimMaple98 (Sep 12, 2020)

My Yoshikane Amekiri preforms much better than lasers I have tried, including a Shibata Kotetsu, Konosuke GS+ and my own Makoto SG2. Lasers are a bit overrated IMO, it’s all in the grind and profile. 

I know you asked what the best laser is, but people are pointing out knives that preform just as well or better, hence the “cleavers” (Chinese chef knives are not all cleavers) or Sanjo Knives


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

It doesn't make sense because you would not use those in all cases where you might want a laser. They might perform just as well in a number of cases but that's not the question.

This is like giving a Japanese restaurant a bad review because you don't like sushi and saying burgers perform better.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 12, 2020)

I forgot to mention another non-traditional “laser” I’ve tried - Mcusta Zanmai vg10/vg2 gyuto. 2mm spine, gentle distal taper, slight convexity on the right side, and thin behind the edge (not crazy thin behind the edge but on par with Sakai lasers). The handle is a bit too long and too heavy to me, but the performance of the blade part is very similar to Sakai lasers’.


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## zizirex (Sep 12, 2020)

Byphy said:


> knife skills > grind
> kanji > everything
> 
> most knives are great. it all comes down to personal preference. just learn how to use it properly and stop splitting hairs over differences when no one will ever 100% agree w each other anyway.
> ...


yup, everyone cuts differently, and use different ingredients. I don't cut a lot of roots veg and starchy root, so food release is useless. I don't deseed a pepper and I like to chop it up in my ingredient where others will remove it.

So, knife performance really depends on what are you use it for.

one does not use Mini Cooper to tow a car, and one does not use G63 AMG to race in Laguna Seca.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 12, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> This is like giving a Japanese restaurant a bad review because you don't like sushi and saying burgers perform better.


It's more like giving a fast food chain a bad review because a nicer restaurant's burger tastes better. Maybe it's not helpful because eating without leaving their car is an important factor to the person asking for recommendations, but they didn't ask that specifically. Framing the request in such a simple way ("which is better") will lead us to make suggestions based on the considerations we feel are most important. And if the person soliciting suggestions is known to be relatively inexperienced, it's understandable we'd try to guide them towards better candidates they may not have considered.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

That's a lot of words but I still have no idea what you said bro.


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## frdrck (Sep 12, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Thanks, for some reason this didn't come up when I searched old laser threads. But I'm still confused as even that thread lists some names without saying much about each, and there is a persistent debate on which knives are really in the laser category. Also, none of the old threads have an answer to whether you would prefer a different knife length from your typical favored length if you buy a laser.


This might help. 

(not mine. I believe it's r/marine775's)


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

Thanks for sharing that!


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 12, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> That's a lot of words but I still have no idea what you said bro.


My bad, I should have realized reading comprehension isn't your strength. Simplified: you don't know what you want, yet you're annoyed when others can't figure it out for you.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

I think it’s pretty clear what I want, and the subject line says laser.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 12, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Why are we comparing Sanjo gyutos to laser gyutos and cleavers?


What is a "laser gyuto" exactly? What is the difference in performance between a thin Sanjo gyuto like the Amekiri vs a more typical "laser gyuto" like a Konosuke HD? You ask for opinions but you don't understand the debate.


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## daveb (Sep 12, 2020)

I don't find the HD2 to be a laser - more a light mid weight. Suisin IH, Gesshin Ginga, Tadasuna, own the laser market. IMO

Describing knives to folks that haven't used knives is like describing a landscape to a blind person.. It can be rewarding. Can also be frustrating when the blind person insists there's a shrubbery over there because someone else told him there was.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

I did read your great notes on the Suisin Inox Honyaki though. Almost as good as actually using it.


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## tchan001 (Sep 12, 2020)

daveb said:


> I don't find the HD2 to be a laser - more a light mid weight. Suisin IH, Gesshin Ginga, Tadasuna, own the laser market. IMO
> 
> Describing knives to folks that haven't used knives is like describing a landscape to a blind person.. It can be rewarding. Can also be frustrating when the blind person insists there's a shrubbery over there because someone else told him there was.


Must have told Jose about the shrubbery but forgot to tell him about the cliff in front of it. He's been buying up BST like a bull in a China shop.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 12, 2020)

Yea the spine of my HD2 is 2.4mm above the heel. It’s thicker than other lasers.


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## ian (Sep 12, 2020)

By the way, @josemartinlopez, is that your real name? Are you a Singaporean of Latin American or Spanish descent?


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 12, 2020)

Good to know. I had a super thin Konosuke over a decade ago before they had all these different series. Just an unnamed basic line in white or stainless, and the Fujiyamas. I thought the HD series was currently the thinnest, my mistake. The one I owned was comparable to a Suisin IH or Tadatsuna.

My point stands though - what is a laser? Is it defined by overall weight or cutting performance? If a light-midweight Sanjo gyuto is thinner in the first 1cm behind the edge, is it more laser-like than a lightweight Sakai gyuto with a thinner spine? 

JML seems to want to collect The Best ____ in every category. But these categories are artificial, and subject to debate. If you ask, "what's the best laser?" eventually the old argument about 'what is a laser?' comes up. A clearer question would be something like, "what's the best Sakai-style thin-spine lightweight gyuto?"


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

One comment I got more than once over PM is not to look too hard at the classics lasers like the Suisin Inox Honyaki, Ashi Ginga or Shibata Kotetsu, and other names mentioned like Makoto Kurusoki, because these are all prelaminate knives generally with less handwork by the makers. One aspect of "best" I've been wondering about is whether there is a higher end non-custom maker with more work into the knife, for example, on the grind to aid food release. (I also wonder if the nature of thin blades is that more work on them won't change much as there is much less knife to work with.)

I have my eye on Raicho (礼頂の包丁 | 株式会社　礼頂　｜　こだわりの包丁) as a one man shop trying to make this kind of higher end R2 laser.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 12, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> One comment I got more than once over PM is not to look too hard at the classics lasers like the Suisin Inox Honyaki, Ashi Ginga or Shibata Kotetsu, and other names mentioned like Makoto Kurusoki, because these are all prelaminate knives generally with less handwork by the makers.


Sakai lasers are stamped monosteel knives. Prelaminated stock is more for sanmai knives. I heard Shibata AS is forged by Ikeda from Echizen, although Ikeda is probably using prelaminated stock.


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## ian (Sep 12, 2020)

Prelaminated stock ftw!


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## dafox (Sep 12, 2020)

Lasers were my favorite type of knife but I have been gravitating away from them. I have or have had pretty much all of them in the various makers, versions, vintages, sizes and steels, so have had a good look around at them. I do like lasers' cutting performance, I highly value a knife that glides effortlessly through food. But, I have also discovered that I like a knife with a thicker spine near the bolster for comfort and for most of the spine for rigidity and the additional weight it provides. I also highly value a knife with a thin tip so like knives with a strong distal taper and thin tip. My favorites are Gengetsu, Wakui, and Ryusen Blazen.

Amongst the lasers my favorites all around are the Suisin inox honjaki and the Konosuke hd2 older version with the flatter profile and long skinny handle. 
Favorite grind: SIH
Favorite profile and blade shape:
older HD2
Favorite handle: SIH and older HD2
Favorite kanji: Ginga
Favorite blade thickness: HD2
Favorite steel: to be determined
Things I dont like: exposed machi, english printing on blade, extra thin blades, too much belly, rust, too light of a knife, blade heavy balance, and big handles.

Another thing that I like about Sanjo knives as compared to Sakai knives is that the Sanjo knives are a bit longer and combined with their extra weight I prefer their 210 knives over the Sakai knives which just seem too small, the Sanjo 210's are a better fit for me. 

I'm still in the laser game, have a used Tadatsuna inox 240 gyuto on its way


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

Thanks for that. Definitely something timeless about the Suisin Inox Honyaki and what you would think looks like a cheap, crappy handle.


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## Byphy (Sep 12, 2020)

dafox said:


> Favorite kanji: Ginga
> 
> Things I dont like: exposed machi, english printing on blade



Now these are the details that matter.

Is there a fav kanji thread? If not I’m starting one


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

Please do! To Mandarin speakers, the "workhorse" kanji on Kato is weird.


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## Iggy (Sep 12, 2020)

Best Laser? Suisin Inox Honyaki...  

Only too expensive IMHO these days...


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

It's about the same price as Shibata Kotetsu and Yu Kurosaki right?


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## dafox (Sep 12, 2020)

Iggy said:


> Best Laser? Suisin Inox Honyaki...
> 
> Only too expensive IMHO these days...


20% off at Korin right now.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

I thought Suisin Inox Honyaki was a roughly JPY30,000 gyuto.


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## blunt_cutter (Sep 12, 2020)

Laser is a sexy word. Brings up all kinds of reactions. Is a devin thomas ITK gyuto a laser?


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## daveb (Sep 12, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Definitely something timeless about the Suisin Inox Honyaki and what you would think looks like a cheap, crappy handle.


 

Don't think I've ever seen SIH and "cheap, crappy handle" in the same sentence before. There is no shrubbery and you are an insufferable dolt.


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## Byphy (Sep 12, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Definitely something timeless about the Suisin Inox Honyaki and what you would think looks like a cheap, crappy handle.



I love those handles. Literally only reason why I'd choose a SIH over any other laser.


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## juice (Sep 12, 2020)

daveb said:


> Can also be frustrating when the blind person insists there's a shrubbery over there because someone else told him there was.


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## Nagakin (Sep 12, 2020)

Z-wear from @HSC /// Knives is my recommendation. I beat the hell out of mine and its never chipped and hardly scratched on items including rubberbanded stacks of lemongrass and chicken bones. After learning the knife and making small technique adjustments to suit the grind I can get equal food release to my middleweights that are 1-2mm thicker at the spine. A well made laser will perform as well as you do.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

What is the handle on a Suisin Inox Honyaki?


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## dafox (Sep 13, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> What is the handle on a Suisin Inox Honyaki?


Yew wood, buffalo horn, top half octagonal, bottom half rounded, over all shape a little more slender and tapered than most, and very nice fit and finish.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

daveb said:


> Don't think I've ever seen SIH and "cheap, crappy handle" in the same sentence before.


"what you would think"... in not so bright lighting etc mistaking them for normal magnolia handles


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## daveb (Sep 13, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> What is the handle on a Suisin Inox Honyaki?




It's the end thats not shiny. You hold the knife with it.


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## daveb (Sep 13, 2020)

Nagakin said:


> Z-wear from @HSC /// Knives is my recommendation.



Are we still talking lasers? I've three zwear knives now and would not consider them lasers. Very nice grind, thin where it needs to be but more robust than most midweights. I like them as an all day knife - do anything in the kitchen.


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## daveb (Sep 13, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> "what you would think"... in not so bright lighting etc mistaking them for normal magnolia handles



That someone with no, zero, nada, empirical knowledge is posting whatever comes out his ass.


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## mise_en_place (Sep 13, 2020)

@josemartinlopez

Best laser is lightsaber. Issue is, they really dig into the board.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

@daveb, you did get my PM weeks back that I took your advice and ordered Suisin Inox Honyaki in the exact lengths you recommended?


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## Nagakin (Sep 13, 2020)

daveb said:


> Are we still talking lasers? I've three zwear knives now and would not consider them lasers. Very nice grind, thin where it needs to be but more robust than most midweights. I like them as an all day knife - do anything in the kitchen.


I would consider my copy one by my standards, I requested a shorter heel (48mm) and the grind is thin throughout with some flex along most of the blade. Can definitely see how the grind can be considered middleweight if there was more height behind the edge. Mine is 270 and feels about the same in hand as my 225s do. That could also have to do with the balance point being spot on though.


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## daveb (Sep 13, 2020)

Nagakin said:


> I would consider my copy one by my standards, I requested a shorter heel (48mm) and the grind is thin throughout with some flex along most of the blade. Can definitely see how the grind can be considered middleweight if there was more height behind the edge. Mine is 270 and feels about the same in hand as my 225s do. That could also have to do with the balance point being spot on though.



Sounds like a different knife. My gyuto is tall, (a little taller than I like normallly). Now I'm going to have to get out the scale and the calipers. I have a petty, suji, and 250mm gyuto. The gyuto feels like it's at the workhorse end of the scale.


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## daveb (Sep 13, 2020)

No way Jose. You can't own a SIH and confuse the handle with being crap.

Pics or it didn't happen.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

Hmmm. I doubt I know the real difference between a good and a bad handle.


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## daveb (Sep 13, 2020)

Strangely, that doesn't diminish your eagerness to call it "crap"....


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

To be clear, I didn't and the Suisin Inox Honyaki in fact exceeds all expectations even though some people dismiss it (and other lasers) as a prelaminated knife. I said I initially thought it was a cheap handle and didn't immediately appreciate the fit and finish and why it is priced higher than others. It's one of the most amazing light knives I tried, and this is why I closely read all your recommendations to my threads.


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## McMan (Sep 13, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> To be clear, I didn't and the Suisin Inox Honyaki in fact exceeds all expectations even though some people dismiss it (and other lasers) as a prelaminated knife. I said I initially thought it was a cheap handle and didn't immediately appreciate the fit and finish and why it is priced higher than others. It's one of the most amazing light knives I tried, and this is why I closely read all your recommendations to my threads.


It's not prelaminated. It's monosteel.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 13, 2020)

Apologies, that's what someone shot me on PM.


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## daveb (Sep 13, 2020)

No shrubbery. 

Lot of fertilizer.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 14, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Apologies, that's what someone shot me on PM.


No offense but you should be able to tell whether a knife you own is monosteel or sanmai (possibility for prelaminated) by looking at it rather than hearing it from a PM.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 14, 2020)

None taken, but you overestimate my abilities.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Sep 14, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> None taken, but you overestimate my abilities.



Your ability to see a line running mostly parallel to the edge?


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## btbyrd (Sep 14, 2020)

Just when I thought it was impossible to estimate his abilities any lower...


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 14, 2020)

I haven't really looked at it yet, it's a cheap knife I like.


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## ian (Sep 14, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> It's one of the most amazing light knives I tried





josemartinlopez said:


> I haven't really looked at it yet, it's a cheap knife I like.



.... ?


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 14, 2020)




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## daveb (Sep 14, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> it's a cheap knife I like.



Is this still about SIH or have you moved on? "cheap knife" indeed.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 14, 2020)

it's not? sorry, i don't mean it's a bad knife in any way.


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## daveb (Sep 14, 2020)

There's a saying here, "It's better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

It was pre-keyboard but still applies.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 14, 2020)

Don't think there's any doubt I'm an idiot when it comes to this, though.


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## Barmoley (Sep 14, 2020)

Sounds like someone took some liberties with the statement of actually having the knife. Calling the handle cheap and badly done, questioning lamination process of a mono knife? Hard to make these mistakes with knife in hand. As far as cheapness, I guess $350-$400 is cheap for some.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 14, 2020)

No, I didn't call the handle cheap or badly done.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 14, 2020)

Also, it's definitely a great honyaki.


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## daveb (Sep 14, 2020)

And why do you think that?

Perhaps you confused the hamon with a lamination line?


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 14, 2020)

Uh... you said it’s great?


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 14, 2020)

Most irritating KKF thread ever.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Sep 14, 2020)

Ya'll don't know when you are being trolled.


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## Barmoley (Sep 14, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> No, I didn't call the handle cheap or badly done.





josemartinlopez said:


> Thanks for that. Definitely something timeless about the Suisin Inox Honyaki and what you would think looks like a cheap, crappy handle.



My mistake, I must've misunderstood.


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## Barmoley (Sep 14, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Ya'll don't know when you are being trolled.


I think we know, I hope we know, this was obvious 2 month ago, but hey as long as people are having fun I guess......


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## juice (Sep 14, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Ya'll don't know when you are being trolled.


And it's not even good trolling. Buying a few expensive knives (and then calling good knives "cheap") buys you some indulgences, I guess.


----------



## applepieforbreakfast (Sep 14, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Ya'll don't know when you are being trolled.



Oh, I think we know. It's just that no one in a position of power seems to want to do anything about it.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 14, 2020)

Cheaper knife?


----------



## Ruso (Sep 14, 2020)

Do trolls like beef?


----------



## sododgy (Sep 15, 2020)

juice said:


> And it's not even good trolling. Buying a few expensive knives (and then calling good knives "cheap") buys you some indulgences, I guess.



In all fairness, you've gotta respect the commitment. People started publicly calling it out and the persona dipped a touch, but he pivoted and made the BST rounds to literally buy legitimacy. And it worked pretty flawlessly. 

Say what you will about the quality of the troll, but you can't deny the dedication.


----------



## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

sododgy said:


> but he pivoted and made the BST rounds to literally buy legitimacy. And it worked pretty flawlessly.


Yeah, I'm always a bit surprised when a method so crass and obvious works on people, but there you go


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 15, 2020)

It is quiet bizarre, I haven’t seen this on KKF before, but clearly if you have enough money to throw around people will sell to you and vouch for you regardless of your behavior outside of BST. Then you can make up your own rules, not post pictures of trades or even answer any questions publicly. Ask questions and offer advice without showing any knives you’ve bought or even reply about preferences or anything. In any case the forum rules are not being broken, so not much to do. Those who don’t like this should ignore others engage if they want.


----------



## toddnmd (Sep 15, 2020)

Barmoley’s statements of opinion—both in this thread and regarding the Raquin passaround—seem totally reasonable to me.


----------



## Twigg (Sep 15, 2020)

Ruso said:


> Do trolls like beef?


<iframe width="964" height="723" src="" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> It is quiet bizarre, I haven’t seen this on KKF before, but clearly if you have enough money to throw around people will sell to you and vouch for you regardless of your behavior outside of BST. Then you can make up your own rules, not post pictures of trades or even answer any questions publicly. Ask questions and offer advice without showing any knives you’ve bought or even reply about preferences or anything. In any case the forum rules are not being broken, so not much to do. Those who don’t like this should ignore others engage if they want.



i have asked @JML what were his favorite knives and I never heard a peep. I was just curious because he has demonstrated either insatiable curiosity even about trivial details, or incessant questioning to learn more.

as a fellow newbie, while I respect that, I think the tendency to change answers, shift positions (one moment it’s crap, another moment it’s great), offer shallow opinions that reek of parrotting what others PM’d or said grates the nerves on this forum- where clearly people seek authenticity, honesty, and experience.


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

Firstly, probably along with what other's have mentioned, "best" is quite subjective. Personally, I don't believe in "best" or "perfect," etc.

However, to your OP of "Which is the best laser?," alright, I'll play along.

IMHO, the "best laser," is my 240 Takada, blue 1. One of the best performing knives I've used. Love everything about it—finish, profile, handle, steel, balance, etc. It's the sh*t, sexy as heck, keeper, want another.


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 15, 2020)

Thanks, any more specifics? Takada hasn't come to mind yet, but what makes me think is you could make the same comment about many lasers you like, even something like a Carter. I'm trying to understand the differences, especially with how some people argue all good lasers are similar as there are only so many ways you can grind a thin blade.


----------



## LostHighway (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> i have asked @JML what were his favorite knives and I never heard a peep. I was just curious because he has demonstrated either insatiable curiosity even about trivial details, or incessant questioning to learn more.
> 
> as a fellow newbie, while I respect that, I think the tendency to change answers, shift positions (one moment it’s crap, another moment it’s great), offer shallow opinions that reek of parrotting what others PM’d or said grates the nerves on this forum- where clearly people seek authenticity, honesty, and experience.



I'm not convinced that it is primarily curiosity per se. Taken collectively I think it looks more like attention seeking behavior coupled with no small measure of entitlement. I haven't seen any serious attempt to actually contribute to KKF in any meaningful way.


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## Barmoley (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> i have asked @JML what were his favorite knives and I never heard a peep. I was just curious because he has demonstrated either insatiable curiosity even about trivial details, or incessant questioning to learn more.
> 
> as a fellow newbie, while I respect that, I think the tendency to change answers, shift positions (one moment it’s crap, another moment it’s great), offer shallow opinions that reek of parrotting what others PM’d or said grates the nerves on this forum- where clearly people seek authenticity, honesty, and experience.


Yes, it is basically a give and take, the only way a forum can work. We try to help everyone with our opinions, knowledge, experience. We want to hear back, what knives you bought, what you like, what you don't like, etc. Sometimes people come in, take advice and leave, sometimes people stick around and start sharing at some point. This is the first time, in my experience on any of the forums, that someone comes in asks a million questions, doesn't seem to read any of the answers, doesn't answer any questions in return, buys a crap load of different, expensive and rare knives, has no opinion on the knives he bought, starts giving advice and school people on how to read the forum and how to behave.... just bizarre.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Firstly, probably along with what other's have mentioned, "best" is quite subjective. Personally, I don't believe in "best" or "perfect," etc.
> 
> However, to your OP of "Which is the best laser?," alright, I'll play along.
> 
> ...



I presume this is Takada no Hamono - I have the white suiboke from CKC - gorgeous knife - all the the things you say above - I prefer a bit higher heel height, but it’s incredibly well made - flawless

but it’s weight is about 185 gm - is that not out of laser territory or borderline?

please don’t tell me this is not Takada no hamono


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Thanks, any more specifics? Takada hasn't come to mind yet, but what makes me think is you could make the same comment about many lasers you like, even something like a Carter. I'm trying to understand the differences, especially with how some people argue all good lasers are similar as there are only so many ways you can grind a thin blade.


Yes, gotta lotta specifics. But, before we delve into it, I’m interested in your opinion on lasers, based on the knives you’ve used including some of your recent purchases. Do you prefer lasers over mid weight and workhorses? Are you leaning towards certain lasers? Which ones and why?
Looking forward to your astute observations. Then we’ll talk Takada!


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Please do! To Mandarin speakers, the "workhorse" kanji on Kato is weird.


????? The Kanji is in Japanese so it would be strange to Mandarin speakers


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 15, 2020)

"The Kanji is in Japanese" -- think about what you just said and count how many people you just insulted.


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## Barmoley (Sep 15, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> "The Kanji is in Japanese" -- think about what you just said and count how many people you just insulted.


Or you could just be helpful and explain that Kanji is Japanese writing using Chinese characters. Not everyone knows this. Of course that would require you to actually contribute something useful.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> I presume this is Takada no Hamono - I have the white suiboke from CKC - gorgeous knife - all the the things you say above - I prefer a bit higher heel height, but it’s incredibly well made - flawless
> 
> but it’s weight is about 185 gm - is that not out of laser territory or borderline?
> 
> please don’t tell me this is not Takada no hamono


Yes, it’s Takada no Hamono, but not from Carbon. I too would prefer a little taller heel height, but easily overlook it because of its other attributes.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Or you could just be helpful and explain that Kanji is Japanese writing using Chinese characters. Not everyone knows this. Of course that would require you to actually contribute something useful.


Yes, JML, share your knowledge. Personally, I’d prefer my knives inscribed with oracle seal script.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Question to the learned - earlier in this thread I saw some conversation about laminated cards monosteel and how you can tell by looking at the thin line near the edge - not hamon of course

but I have a Japanese swordsmith made knife - white #2 core with soft iron clad - but I see no line - see pictures. How is this possible?

see pictures below. The maker is a swordsmith called yoshihiko akitomo


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Question to the learned - earlier in this thread I saw some conversation about laminated cards monosteel and how you can tell by looking at the thin line near the edge - not hamon of course
> 
> but I have a Japanese swordsmith made knife - white #2 core with soft iron clad - but I see no line - see pictures. How is this possible?
> 
> ...


Appears to be mono steel to my eyes. Nice looking knife!


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Or you could just be helpful and explain that Kanji is Japanese writing using Chinese characters. Not everyone knows this. Of course that would require you to actually contribute something useful.


I did not know this - good information for me and thank you for educating me

I apologize if my ignorance offended anyone.
But I truly appreciate the helpful spirit within which this response was written.

Versus mocking my ignorance


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> I did not know this - good information for me and thank you for educating me
> 
> I apologize if my ignorance offended anyone.
> But I truly appreciate the helpful spirit within which this response was written.
> ...



As a non-Japanese speaker/reader, I'm also unfamiliar with the details of the language. BTW, your name looks better in Chinese.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> As a non-Japanese speaker/reader, I'm also unfamiliar with the details of the language. BTW, your name looks better in Chinese.
> 
> View attachment 94760
> 
> View attachment 94759



for a moment, I thought you were going to say my name looks better in Kanji


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> for a moment, I thought you were going to say my name looks better in Kanji


Your name is too long in kanji! IMO, of course. BTW, I found the listing for your knife, says it's clad in soft steel, but I really can't see a cladding line?


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## ian (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Question to the learned - earlier in this thread I saw some conversation about laminated cards monosteel and how you can tell by looking at the thin line near the edge - not hamon of course
> 
> but I have a Japanese swordsmith made knife - white #2 core with soft iron clad - but I see no line - see pictures. How is this possible?
> 
> ...



It's hard to tell from pics. Depending on how it's polished, the cladding line may not be as visible. For instance, if you polish with sandpaper then the sandpaper scratches the core and cladding similarly, so there's hardly any contrast. If you polish with stones, the polish on the cladding will often look darker than on the core. I don't really see a lamination line on the knife you posted, so either it was mislabeled from the retailer or the polish is such that the line is hard to find in pictures. I remember there was some brief ruckus about the Y Tanaka line at JNS where a number of people were convinced it was monosteel instead of iron clad because the lamination line was really subtle in pics. That said, you should be able to see it if you're holding the knife in hand and looking closely, so if you don't, maybe it's mono.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

ian said:


> It's hard to tell from pics. Depending on how it's polished, the cladding line may not be as visible. For instance, if you polish with sandpaper then the sandpaper scratches the core and cladding similarly, so there's hardly any contrast. If you polish with stones, the polish on the cladding will often look darker than on the core. I don't really see a lamination line on the knife you posted, so either it was mislabeled from the retailer or the polish is such that the line is hard to find in pictures. I remember there was some brief ruckus about the Y Tanaka line at JNS where a number of people were convinced it was monosteel instead of iron clad because the lamination line was really subtle in pics. That said, you should be able to see it if you're holding the knife in hand and looking closely, so if you don't, maybe it's mono.



thanks - very helpful. The English of the retailer in Japan was definitely not the Queen’s English. But if it’s monosteel white 2, then I presume the implication is more chip-prone?

I will examine more closely and send an email to retailer

It is a beast at 307 grams


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Your name is too long in kanji! IMO, of course. BTW, I found the listing for your knife, says it's clad in soft steel, but I really can't see a cladding line?


I know - hence my confusion - I will email the retailer and probe.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 15, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Or you could just be helpful and explain that Kanji is Japanese writing using Chinese characters.


@RockyBasel already knows this.


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## esoo (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Question to the learned - earlier in this thread I saw some conversation about laminated cards monosteel and how you can tell by looking at the thin line near the edge - not hamon of course
> 
> but I have a Japanese swordsmith made knife - white #2 core with soft iron clad - but I see no line - see pictures. How is this possible?
> 
> ...



If you're feeling brave, a mild vinegar and water solution could show up the cladding line - I just had an experience with that. But be warned it will orange the core, so you will have to take that off after.


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## AT5760 (Sep 15, 2020)

Well, I didn’t until about 3 minutes ago. So thanks @Barmoley for a bit of education!


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Last question - for a Denka - am thinking of getting Urushi handle as USP. As per forum advice. Does color matter - it comes in red and black


josemartinlopez said:


> @RockyBasel already knows this.


I can speak my own mind thank you and no, did not know this


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

esoo said:


> If you're feeling brave, a mild vinegar and water solution could show up the cladding line - I just had an experience with that. But be warned it will orange the core, so you will have to take that off after.


I will wait until I hear more from the retailer on this - but now I have to get to the bottom of what I got - monosteel or cladded as advertised. Sent them email just now


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Last question - for a Denka - am thinking of getting Urushi handle as USP. As per forum advice. Does color matter - it comes in red and black
> 
> I can speak my own mind thank you and no, did not know this


Denka handle color doesn’t matter at all. Personally, I like the red western handles.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 15, 2020)

Why are we talking about Denkas now?


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## Twigg (Sep 15, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> "The Kanji is in Japanese" -- think about what you just said and count how many people you just insulted.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 15, 2020)

Perfect Singapore meme


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Denka handle color doesn’t matter at all. Personally, I like the red western handles.


Almost got the western red, but I am so used to Wa at this point, was worried about the switch


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Yes, gotta lotta specifics. But, before we delve into it, I’m interested in your opinion on lasers, based on the knives you’ve used including some of your recent purchases. Do you prefer lasers over mid weight and workhorses? Are you leaning towards certain lasers? Which ones and why?
> Looking forward to your astute observations. Then we’ll talk Takada!



did I miss his response to this - were you able to get an opinion out of him?


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> did I miss his response to this - were you able to get an opinion out of him?


No, not yet, not holding my breath. TBH, I’m intrigued by @josemartinlopez—to me he has the manner of a journalist, reminding me of the many colleagues I had while working at magazines, an innate ability to conduct entire conversations by asking questions without offering opinions of his own, carefully walking that tightrope of neutrality. Also present with JLM is the sensibilities of a politician attempting to appease the widest audience, by not taking a particular stand, or expressing personal viewpoints, perhaps for fear of being quoted or contradicting himself.
Just my observations. Nothing wrong with it.
I’ve posted strong opinions In the past that I’d happily walk back—my viewpoints have evolved over the years. Knives I viewed as ‘the best,’ a decade ago, are merely meh to me nowadays.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 15, 2020)

Yes he did.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Almost got the western red, but I am so used to Wa at this point, was worried about the switch


Personal preference of course, but IMHO, the denka with finger notch seems to flow better, design wise with a western handle—though, as stated, just my opinion. Main thing is, you’re getting a denka!!! Great knife with wa or yo. Call it a laser, so it won’t be outta place on this thread.


----------



## MowgFace (Sep 15, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Yes he did.



Oh, i must have missed it. I would love to hear your opinions. Might help me make a purchase later down the road.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Question to the learned - earlier in this thread I saw some conversation about laminated cards monosteel and how you can tell by looking at the thin line near the edge - not hamon of course
> 
> but I have a Japanese swordsmith made knife - white #2 core with soft iron clad - but I see no line - see pictures. How is this possible?
> 
> ...


The cladding and core steel will patina differently so you will see the line once you use it. BTW it is a cool good looking knife. Mind sharing the link?


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## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> and no, did not know this


Ah, apparently you did. Who are you to contradict the learned opinion?



DitmasPork said:


> TBH, I’m intrigued by @josemartinlopez—to me he has the manner of a journalist


That's pretty insulting to real journalists, I have to say. (Not saying that's your intent, but it is.) Also, this isn't a medium for journalists to get stories, it's a forum, which has a completely different purpose.


----------



## Twigg (Sep 15, 2020)

Strange things are afoot at the Circle K.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

juice said:


> Ah, apparently you did. Who are you to contradict the learned opinion?
> 
> 
> That's pretty insulting to real journalists, I have to say. (Not saying that's your intent, but it is.) Also, this isn't a medium for journalists to get stories, it's a forum, which has a completely different purpose.



Not an insult to journalists, nor intended to be. Simply an observation on a dynamic and method of conversing. There's a real craft to being a journalist, knowing how to ask questions that will elicit responses—which JML has, as evident by the numerous responses on his many threads. Yes, here on the forum there should be more of a give and take IMO.

Interestingly, through JML threads I've learned more about other members viewpoints and little of JML.

Hey @josemartinlopez, who are you? How'd you get into, and why do you collect J-knives? Are you a chef, investment banker, talkshow host? What type of knives do you collect and why? Does Sakai or Sanjo rock your boat?


----------



## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Not an insult to journalists, nor intended to be. Simply an observation on a dynamic and method of conversing.


But it's not conversing, that's my point. When I'm in journalism mode, I'm gathering data for an article or the like, but that's a long way away from being part of a community, which this is supposed to be, and real journalists know the difference and act accordingly.


----------



## Twigg (Sep 15, 2020)

His opinion doesn't matter. Mining the thoughts and opinions of the forum is the goal. Yeah, sure, he bought some expensive knives on BST. I gather he has addresses in the US, but says he is in Singapore. He doesn't bother to be a supporting member, even though he can afford to, possibly cause it might reveal to the mods more about him. I really think he is Ryky or Ryky's proxy gathering info for the book. The knife purchases are for the pictures.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> The cladding and core steel will patina differently so you will see the line once you use it. BTW it is a cool good looking knife. Mind sharing the link?


I got it from Japanese-cutlery dot com

they have cool tamahagane knives that I can’t afford, and they take orders for Shigefusa too maybe, but wait is 3-4 years.

I wanted something non-conventional from an old master who perhaps won’t be making knives for too long

here are closer view pics of edge - don’t see a line. Maybe you do. Monosteel mystery continues


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (Sep 15, 2020)

I'm starting to like this guy, reminds me of chef Niloc. For you older members...


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Personal preference of course, but IMHO, the denka with finger notch seems to flow better, design wise with a western handle—though, as stated, just my opinion. Main thing is, you’re getting a denka!!! Great knife with wa or yo. Call it a laser, so it won’t be outta place on this thread.


I am indeed getting the Denka laser - and definitely with the finger notch - glad you said that will make sure


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Not an insult to journalists, nor intended to be. Simply an observation on a dynamic and method of conversing. There's a real craft to being a journalist, knowing how to ask questions that will elicit responses—which JML has, as evident by the numerous responses on his many threads. Yes, here on the forum there should be more of a give and take IMO.
> 
> Interestingly, through JML threads I've learned more about other members viewpoints and little of JML.
> 
> Hey @josemartinlopez, who are you? How'd you get into, and why do you collect J-knives? Are you a chef, investment banker, talkshow host? What type of knives do you collect and why? Does Sakai or Sanjo rock your boat?


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

MowgFace said:


> Oh, i must have missed it. I would love to hear your opinions. Might help me make a purchase later down the road.


----------



## ian (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> I got it from Japanese-cutlery dot com
> 
> they have cool tamahagane knives that I can’t afford, and they take orders for Shigefusa too maybe, but wait is 3-4 years.
> 
> ...



Idk, I think I see a lamination line. You should just use the knife.... the mystery will be resolved as soon as it patinas.

Use the knife, use use the knife! Oh yea!


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Not an insult to journalists, nor intended to be. Simply an observation on a dynamic and method of conversing. There's a real craft to being a journalist, knowing how to ask questions that will elicit responses—which JML has, as evident by the numerous responses on his many threads. Yes, here on the forum there should be more of a give and take IMO.
> 
> Interestingly, through JML threads I've learned more about other members viewpoints and little of JML.
> 
> Hey @josemartinlopez, who are you? How'd you get into, and why do you collect J-knives? Are you a chef, investment banker, talkshow host? What type of knives do you collect and why? Does Sakai or Sanjo rock your boat?



I hope your question gets an answer.

I have had pleasant exchanges in PM with JML but in public forums, he can turn on a dime and belittle another’s opinion at the drop of a hat. 

One thing I noticed is people trying to answer his questions sincerely but he can never seem to appreciate it or accept it until the other party starts to lose it

And zero reciprocity as to his own tastes and likes. I dont think he is a journalist, but perhaps he is shy? Or insecure, who knows and who cares


----------



## Twigg (Sep 15, 2020)

Maybe just a d!ck?


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Maybe just a d!ck?


 cracking me up...,


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Too funny


ian said:


> Idk, I think I see a lamination line. You should just use the knife.... the mystery will be resolved as soon as it patinas.
> 
> Use the knife, use use the knife! Oh yea!


Best advice of the day!


----------



## ian (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Too funny
> 
> Best advice of the day!



Even better, just look at it out of the corner of your eye while talking about politics. If it immediately rusts, it’s iron clad.


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

ian said:


> Even better, just look at it out of the corner of your eye while talking about politics. If it immediately rusts, it’s iron clad.


----------



## daveb (Sep 15, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> reminds me of chef Niloc.



Hey now, I liked Chef Niloc - on even numbered days  

Don't remember him being shy with his own opinions.......


----------



## dafox (Sep 15, 2020)

Twigg said:


> His opinion doesn't matter. Mining the thoughts and opinions of the forum is the goal. Yeah, sure, he bought some expensive knives on BST. I gather he has addresses in the US, but says he is in Singapore. He doesn't bother to be a supporting member, even though he can afford to, possibly cause it might reveal to the mods more about him. I really think he is Ryky or Ryky's proxy gathering info for the book. The knife purchases are for the pictures.


Very interesting idea, You might be onto something.


----------



## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

Twigg said:


> I really think he is Ryky or Ryky's proxy gathering info for the book. The knife purchases are for the pictures.


And should have plenty of cash with the patreon scam "pay a fortune to get a chance at the auction that you'll pay a lot more for because of the sunk-cost fallacy of the patreon expense" as well.


----------



## LostHighway (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Yes, gotta lotta specifics. But, before we delve into it, I’m interested in your opinion on lasers, based on the knives you’ve used including some of your recent purchases. Do you prefer lasers over mid weight and workhorses? Are you leaning towards certain lasers? Which ones and why?
> Looking forward to your astute observations. Then we’ll talk Takada!


[


----------



## toddnmd (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Personal preference of course, but IMHO, the denka with finger notch seems to flow better, design wise with a western handle—though, as stated, just my opinion. Main thing is, you’re getting a denka!!! Great knife with wa or yo. Call it a laser, so it won’t be outta place on this thread.



I think Denkas are to thick at spine/heavy to be considered lasers. But still great knives, at least the good ones. 

I agree with DitmasPork about western handle with finger notch feeling the most comfortable. And the western handles seem to be most popular.


----------



## ian (Sep 15, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> [




Mmmm, I want to live there. City life is the worst.


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 15, 2020)

toddnmd said:


> I think Denkas are to thick at spine/heavy to be considered lasers. But still great knives, at least the good ones.
> 
> I agree with DitmasPork about western handle with finger notch feeling the most comfortable. And the western handles seem to be most popular.


I prefer that too. Western with finger notch or WA without. Finger notch basically extends the length of the neck, which WA handled Denkas don't need.


----------



## toddnmd (Sep 15, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I prefer that too. Western with finger notch or WA without. Finger notch basically extends the length of the neck, which WA handled Denkas don't need.



Yeah, I never got used to wa with notch and sold mine.


----------



## LostHighway (Sep 15, 2020)

ian said:


> Mmmm, I want to live there. City life is the worst.



I have effectively lived there. Wildlife (excluding mice, voles and ticks) and night skies are great although cats and small dogs out past dusk tend to fall prey to coyotes, owls, and fishers. Lack of good ethnic restaurants or ethnic groceries or ethnic diversity generally grows old. Close to salt water everything decays at about twice the drier inland rate.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

I just played it so I can sleep under the stars


toddnmd said:


> I think Denkas are to thick at spine/heavy to be considered lasers. But still great knives, at least the good ones.
> 
> I agree with DitmasPork about western handle with finger notch feeling the most comfortable. And the western handles seem to be most popular.


 Oh lord no, don’t make me second guess myself. Took me weeks to get the nerve to order a Denka! Aesthetically I prefer Wa, and also lots of talk about quality on Denka Yo, but hey, as JML said “why are we talking Denkas now” bless his heart. they look so good in red Western though, this much is true


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I prefer that too. Western with finger notch or WA without. Finger notch basically extends the length of the neck, which WA handled Denkas don't need.


Aargh! “Just when I thought I was out, they Pull me back in” - name the movie


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## Twigg (Sep 15, 2020)

Godfather part 3

Unfortunately, it stunk like a burning house made of sh!t that was stuffed with dead dogs.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Godfather part 3
> 
> Unfortunately, it stunk like a burning house made of sh!t that was stuffed with dead dogs.


Nothing like parts 1 and 2 - which were sublime


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 15, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Please do! To Mandarin speakers, the "workhorse" kanji on Kato is weird.
> 
> 
> RockyBasel said:
> ...


This makes me actually angry. @RockyBasel you have insulted no one. JML is a racist troll.

I was willing to overlook that we're supposed to believe Jose Martin Lopez is a Mandarin speaker from Singapore who deals through US addresses and writes in spoken American vernacular like:


josemartinlopez said:


> ... but what makes me think is you could make the same comment ...


 whatever dude, we all have our weird quirks and if pretending you're from Singapore is what floats your boat then no harm no foul. But now you're trying to use your fake identity to create faux racial outrage, and that crosses a line.

Kanji is Japanese, and only a racist would disagree. Saying "the kanji is in Japanese so it would be strange to Mandarin speakers" is perfectly reasonable. Kanji are based on mainland Asian characters from over 1200 years ago when 'China' didn't exist, and distinct from modern Chinese characters to anyone who actually knows these languages.

Saying "to Mandarin speakers, the 'workhorse' kanji on Kato is weird" is actually weird. Based on the fact that he refers to Chinese characters as 'kanji,' even when talking about how they look to Mandarin speakers, I'm certain he is not a Mandarin speaker.


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## ian (Sep 15, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> I have effectively lived there. Wildlife (excluding mice, voles and ticks) and night skies are great although cats and small dogs out past dusk tend to fall prey to coyotes, owls, and fishers. Lack of good ethnic restaurants or ethnic groceries or ethnic diversity generally grows old. Close to salt water everything decays at about twice the drier inland rate.



You old romantic you.


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## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> JML is a racist troll


Yeah, but he spends money, so that's all that matters.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> This makes me actually angry. @RockyBasel you have insulted no one. JML is a racist troll.
> 
> I was willing to overlook that we're supposed to believe Jose Martin Lopez is a Mandarin speaker from Singapore who deals through US addresses and writes in spoken American vernacular like:
> 
> ...



BOOM!


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## ian (Sep 15, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I prefer that too. Western with finger notch or WA without. Finger notch basically extends the length of the neck, which WA handled Denkas don't need.





toddnmd said:


> Yeah, I never got used to wa with notch and sold mine.



I had a wa Maboroshi with notch until recently and quite liked the wa/notch. Then again, I’m a yo hater.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

ian said:


> I had a wa Maboroshi with notch until recently and quite liked the wa/notch. Then again, I’m a yo hater.


I am in good company then


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> This makes me actually angry. @RockyBasel you have insulted no one. JML is a racist troll.
> 
> I was willing to overlook that we're supposed to believe Jose Martin Lopez is a Mandarin speaker from Singapore who deals through US addresses and writes in spoken American vernacular like:
> 
> ...



but a fake identity? *** - this is some strange s**t. Why and what’s the agenda? I mean why pretend to be Singaporean? I can’t wrap my head around this


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2020)

Is he researching for someone else and buying for someone else?

today is the third time he tried to alienate and belittle me. And egg-on forum members against me - just don’t know why.


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## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

ian said:


> Then again, I’m a yo hater.


Yo! Me too!


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> I got it from Japanese-cutlery dot com
> 
> they have cool tamahagane knives that I can’t afford, and they take orders for Shigefusa too maybe, but wait is 3-4 years.
> 
> ...


I can’t see a line either. Could this be lacquer? If the knife has a lacquer film on it, it won’t really patina until the film is gone.


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## Twigg (Sep 15, 2020)

juice said:


> Yo! Me too!


But why!!! Yo-Yo Ma is amazing!


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## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

Twigg said:


> But why!!! Yo-Yo Ma is amazing!


The second Yo cancels out the first.


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## daveb (Sep 15, 2020)

Yo mama said just buy a Lamson.....


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## ian (Sep 15, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> This makes me actually angry. @RockyBasel you have insulted no one. JML is a racist troll.
> 
> I was willing to overlook that we're supposed to believe Jose Martin Lopez is a Mandarin speaker from Singapore who deals through US addresses and writes in spoken American vernacular like:
> 
> ...



Sir, I respect your commitment!



juice said:


> The second Yo cancels out the first.



Indeed. Two yo’s make a wa.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> Kanji are based on mainland Asian characters from over 1200 years ago when 'China' didn't exist, and distinct from modern Chinese characters to anyone who actually knows these languages.


As a Chinese speaker, I think you went too far here. Ancient China is China and kanji is Chinese character. Ancient Chinese characters being different from modern Chinese characters doesn’t make them “mainland Asian characters”. Actually they are not that different. I can read almost all kanji ever shown on this forum. It’s the meaning that has changed during its use in Japan. I agree with you that “马车马” doesn’t look weird to me because I didn’t assume it would mean the same thing in Japan as in China, but saying kanji is not Chinese characters is BS.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 15, 2020)

Now we're getting political... your opinion is PRC orthodoxy that would be strongly refuted by a Japanese speaker. Quoting English websites isn't a legitimate linguistic argument, and only shows how deeply China has sought to influence international discouse at a granular level. It's like an Italian who refuses to acknowledge the difference between Italian and Latin, and argues there's no such thing as the French alphabet. Japanese does not use Chinese characters, it uses kanji.


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## Twigg (Sep 15, 2020)

Stop and think about this. You are allowing a B.S. artist who goes by a Hispanic name, claims to be from Singapore and gets defensive regarding China to draw you into an argument over racism. This is bad comedy.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> Now we're getting political... your opinion is PRC orthodoxy that would be strongly refuted by a Japanese speaker. Quoting English websites isn't a legitimate linguistic argument, and only shows how deeply China has sought to influence international discouse at a granular level. It's like an Italian who refuses to acknowledge the difference between Italian and Latin, and argues there's no such thing as the French alphabet. Japanese does not use Chinese characters, it uses kanji.


This is nonsense. Chinese characters are Chinese characters. Language is used for communication by common people and Google and Oxford Dictionary should tell what common people think what Kanji are. It’s not political until you came in with a strong political stand.


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## btbyrd (Sep 15, 2020)

Do you realize how many people you've just insulted?


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## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Stop and think about this.


I'm interested in the discussion, though, irrespective of the fact that it was kicked off by an obvious troll who is buying his way into the good graces of the community. OTOH, I'm a weird journalist.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2020)

JML’s statement was definitely weird because most Chinese speakers won’t find the Kanji of Kato workhorse weird as we know it’s Japanese. We most likely find it interesting to see the different meanings of same characters in Japan and China. But it doesn’t make those characters “mainland Asian characters” because there is no such thing. Saying Google or Oxford language tells lies because China is seeking international influence is ridiculous. Google exited China to not be influenced by Chinese government.

I want to say my feeling again. I didn’t feel the topic political or racial until Spaceconvoy said what he/she said.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 15, 2020)

That's fine, we can agree to disagree. I've spent a lot of time in Japan and I've adopted the standard Japanese position on this issue. You believe the standard Chinese position. I'm willing to bet neither of us are linguists, therefore both of our positions are political.

Let's not let that distract from the more important point - we both agree JML is full of ****


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

toddnmd said:


> I think Denkas are to thick at spine/heavy to be considered lasers. But still great knives, at least the good ones.
> 
> I agree with DitmasPork about western handle with finger notch feeling the most comfortable. And the western handles seem to be most popular.


Yes, of course, but if you read the lead up to my post, it was a humorous comment intended to make denka appropriate for this laser thread. My denka definitely a mid weight.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> I just played it so I can sleep under the stars
> 
> Oh lord no, don’t make me second guess myself. Took me weeks to get the nerve to order a Denka! Aesthetically I prefer Wa, and also lots of talk about quality on Denka Yo, but hey, as JML said “why are we talking Denkas now” bless his heart. they look so good in red Western though, this much is true


We talk denkas because they’re fun to talk about. I’m sure denkas arbitrarily come up in many threads.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Stop and think about this. You are allowing a B.S. artist who goes by a Hispanic name, claims to be from Singapore and gets defensive regarding China to draw you into an argument over racism. This is bad comedy.


Isn’t JLM a Latino living in SG??? I just assumed he was a Latino based on name alone. I’ve never seen a pic of José TBH.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> That's fine, we can agree to disagree. I've spent a lot of time in Japan and I've adopted the standard Japanese position on this issue. You believe the standard Chinese position. I'm willing to bet neither of us are linguists, therefore both of our positions are political.
> 
> Let's not let that distract from the more important point - we both agree JML is full of ****


Kanji is Japanese but it uses Chinese characters. I don’t believe a Japanese position would deny that. Here is a video made by a Japanese YouTuber. He literally said “Since we use many Chinese words and letters, we can sometimes guess when we see Chinese texts.” And he also said Chinese and Japanese are different languages and no Chinese would deny that.


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## juice (Sep 15, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Isn’t JLM a Latino living in SG??? I just assumed he was a Latino based on name alone. I’ve never seen a pic of José TBH.


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## Inosuke Hashibira (Sep 15, 2020)

Didnt really follow this thread from the beginning. But just finish reading the last 5 pages, very entertaining while waiting for my flight.

IMO, this is the best laser I use for work. Enough said. "DeWalt DW088K"


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> It's like an Italian who refuses to acknowledge the difference between Italian and Latin, and argues there's no such thing as the French alphabet. Japanese does not use Chinese characters, it uses kanji.


I did a little research and now I understand where you got confused. English alphabet, French alphabet, and Italian alphabet are all Latin alphabet as you said. This system has a name “Latin”. And both Chinese and Japanese Kanji (and ancient handwriting Korean actually) use Chinese characters. The name of those characters is indeed Chinese just like Latin. There’s no other name for those characters, otherwise free feel to find me a better term than your imaginary “mainland Asian characters”. There is no such thing.


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## daveb (Sep 15, 2020)

This is making my brain hurt. And it seems discussion of lasers has been exhausted. Let's shut it down.


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