# Instant stock confessional.



## spoiledbroth (Feb 10, 2017)

I saw this today at some random clearance warehouse and I couldn't really resist. I question whether or not I'll be using it before the expiry date lol (1 yr from today's date)





anybody else guilty? :clown: I've been meaning to try out some of the mushroom stocks you can find at asian grocers. David Chang says they're pretty good.

so who's got the rocks to own up to doing this... :wink: (behind is 5.5lb of sea salt for a bit under $1/lb... love my asian grocers)


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## Jovidah (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm guilty of using this at home quite a bit: 






It's awesome because the taste is good (nothing like the stock cubes), and most importantly: you can still scoop it when frozen. So logistics-wise it's awesome. 

For proper veal-stock based stuff:





I'm sorry, but as a homecook it's just not viable to make my own veal stock. This stuff, although expensive, is actually pretty good.
Neither of them are anything like the flavoured salt you get in supermarkets.


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## chiffonodd (Feb 10, 2017)

:spankarse:


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## Jovidah (Feb 10, 2017)

In my defense... I buy this stuff at a wholesaler, and apparently plenty of restaurants buy it as well. Lazy chefs I guess... :eyebrow:


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## Godslayer (Feb 10, 2017)

its been done, especially when I was in college, I havent boughten any for a while though, generally its a oh f im out of stock situation or something like seafood stock which I never make


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## spoiledbroth (Feb 10, 2017)

i know it wont be a popular sentiment but i am a big advocate of better cooking through chemistry. so far, I have read, that instant stock is chemically indifferent from something you'd produce in your own kitchen. The gel ones obviously lend some mouthfeel but really that's the only thing you miss out on with instant stock. 

now, I don't always have time or money to make stock. From 9 dollars I can get 1kg of instant stock (so many L), for that same nine dollars I cannot get more than one decent sized bird, from which I might yield 0.5-1L of stock. no brainer.

Obviously there is some tradeoff for loss in flavour/overall quality/DIY bliss. But I'm cooking for myself, I want to have time for other hobbies too.


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## panda (Feb 10, 2017)

If you add that stuff to fresh made dashi it takes to a new level.


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## Jovidah (Feb 10, 2017)

spoiledbroth said:


> i know it wont be a popular sentiment but i am a big advocate of better cooking through chemistry. so far, I have read, that instant stock is chemically indifferent from something you'd produce in your own kitchen. The gel ones obviously lend some mouthfeel but really that's the only thing you miss out on with instant stock.
> 
> now, I don't always have time or money to make stock. From 9 dollars I can get 1kg of instant stock (so many L), for that same nine dollars I cannot get more than one decent sized bird, from which I might yield 0.5-1L of stock. no brainer.
> 
> Obviously there is some tradeoff for loss in flavour/overall quality/DIY bliss. But I'm cooking for myself, I want to have time for other hobbies too.



It all depends on the quality you're buying IMO. Over here the stock cubes really have very little to do with actual chicken or beef stock. They're just a product made by fermenting yeast and could almost be considered vegetarian. Although it still can be of use if you want to beef up water for cooking pasta or rice. The restaurant stuff can be pretty good though (if pricy). It's a process that does lend itself to industrial scaling.



panda said:


> If you add that stuff to fresh made dashi it takes to a new level.


I have to admit that I sometimes spike my proper chicken stock with some of the stock jelly. Gives it more depth...


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## fimbulvetr (Feb 10, 2017)

I really like (fairly fancypants) packets of instant dashi as a cure for chicken or as seasoning in fresh sausages.


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## ThEoRy (Feb 10, 2017)

spoiledbroth said:


> I saw this today at some random clearance warehouse and I couldn't really resist. I question whether or not I'll be using it before the expiry date lol (1 yr from today's date)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You got lucky finding that hondashi, it's a great product. I mix some in soy sauce when I season spicy tuna rolls.


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## aboynamedsuita (Feb 11, 2017)

I used to add a little bit to a stock and adjust salt and other seasonings accordingly. Nowadays I don't have it in my cupboard, although I've been using a lot of herbamare with other dishes such as eggs and chicken


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 11, 2017)

"They're just a product made by fermenting yeast and could almost be considered vegetarian"

In which case, just using nutritional yeast, marmite etc and bringing your own aromatics could turn out more flexible ...


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## dwalker (Feb 11, 2017)

This works pretty well in a pinch.


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## valgard (Feb 11, 2017)

I always have that stuff at hand since I seldom make beef stock and don't have much space for storing stock long term, I find it pretty OK fro beefing  up the flavour.



dwalker said:


> This works pretty well in a pinch.View attachment 34561


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## spoiledbroth (Feb 11, 2017)

heyyy I am glad to hear from Mr.s Panda and Theory on this! Maybe I will have to order katsuobushi and go to the real asian grocer and get some konbu .... 

anyway I think you might be surprised by the things fermentation of otherwise banal ingredients yields. It is probably true that some lower quality instant stock doesn't really resemble stock at all. I will try to find the exact passage from Herve This I am thinking of with regard to instant stock... could be I am imagining things but I'm afeared not.


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## chiffonodd (Feb 11, 2017)

dwalker said:


> This works pretty well in a pinch.View attachment 34561



Have definitely used that as well  

As much as I'd love to always have homemade stock on hand . . . sometimes my day job (i.e., what allows me to spend my discretionary income on j knives) gets a bit in the way.


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## DDPslice (Feb 11, 2017)

spoiledbroth said:


> heyyy I am glad to hear from Mr.s Panda and Theory on this! Maybe I will have to order katsuobushi and go to the real asian grocer and get some konbu ....
> 
> anyway I think you might be surprised by the things fermentation of otherwise banal ingredients yields. It is probably true that some lower quality instant stock doesn't really resemble stock at all. I will try to find the exact passage from Herve This I am thinking of with regard to instant stock... could be I am imagining things but I'm afeared not.



Kombu wise, I haven't found much difference among the different brands, if somebody thinks otherwise, please I am all ears. 

I put chicken freeze dried/dehydrated chicken bullion on chicken legs/thighs before baking. I recently used an oyster/mushroom msg powder I got from an asian grocery story for a cream broccoli soup and it was amazing. You could not taste the powder in the aforementioned flavors but it was deep.

I do have the same dashi pellets but I haven't used them yet, maybe they would be good in grits?


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 12, 2017)

I never use instant or store bought stock anymore -- I started making my own some time ago and never looked back. That said, dashi and mushroom are probably the two that I would try; since I make dashi from dried, preserved, salted ingredients to begin with, a good instant dashi from the Asian market might not be that much different. I haven't gotten mushroom stock there yet but if I'm going to use some dried mushrooms anyway, as long as there isn't too much salt it's worth a shot.

My workplace does use concentrated and instant stocks, I assume either because of the ingredient cost or labor cost of making real stock and demi.

Using it as a seasoning instead of salt or in a rub sounds good though, like adding porcini soaking liquid to a braise or stew. Again, I'd try it with dashi like Panda said. I remember using the BtB chicken base to season mashed cauliflower at least once with good results.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 12, 2017)

Lobster base, Dashi kombu, Yuzu juice, dried Bonito flakes. Used to make stocks at work, at home not practical. Like to shop at the Japanese grocery store. Also watch the Japanese cooking shows on NHK world, they make some simple tasty sauces.

When peel jumbo shrimp, save the shells cook in a pan only 5mins. wt.oil & white wine. Save liquid for sauce. Lobster base & Yuzu ju. one of my quick sauces for seafood.


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## Fedusa (Feb 12, 2017)

If I have time, I enjoy making it fresh but the difference for me between real stock and instant are the nutrients that come from cooking real ingredients, even if the flavor is comparable. That said, I actually tend to use instant quite often and my stocks actually come out costing quite a bit so it varies.


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## DDPslice (Feb 12, 2017)

I have to say though in regards to MSG laden instant stocks vs from scratch. I do prefer from scratch, if I used too much salt in the beginning of a cook or I am too heavy handed with the bullion cube then my saliva becomes super thick (sorry if that's gross) but I know there was some MSG allergy controversy yada yada yada, and I just had to say I prefer the real deal, I've just been lazy lately.


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## Jovidah (Feb 12, 2017)

DDPslice said:


> I have to say though in regards to MSG laden instant stocks vs from scratch. I do prefer from scratch, if I used too much salt in the beginning of a cook or I am too heavy handed with the bullion cube then my saliva becomes super thick (sorry if that's gross) but I know there was some MSG allergy controversy yada yada yada, and I just had to say I prefer the real deal, I've just been lazy lately.



I'm no chemist... but isn't the whole point of long cooked stocks to denature the proteins into glutamate? Effectively creating 'natural MSG'. I'm not so sure whether it makes much of a biological difference... though I agree most instant stocks are chemical products that often have little to do with the product they portray to imitate.


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## valgard (Feb 12, 2017)

Jovidah said:


> I'm no chemist... but isn't the whole point of long cooked stocks to denature the proteins into glutamate? Effectively creating 'natural MSG'. I'm not so sure whether it makes much of a biological difference... though I agree most instant stocks are chemical products that often have little to do with the product they portray to imitate.


Glutamate is just one of the 20 natural amino acids present in proteins, one of the most common ones but by no means you can break a protein into just glutamate. Also, denaturalizing a protein refers mostly to "unwrapping it from it's naturally "folded" structure. Aggressive denaturalization can lead to the breakage of some bonds into smaller peptides (read smaller proteins) but you would be hard pressed in a kitchen to break a protein into it's constituent amino acids. What denaturalization can do is change the structure and thus, texture and flavour of the said proteins.

You denaturalize proteins when cooking an egg for example, but don't break said proteins.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 13, 2017)

Any cooking ingredient that comes with MSG, emulsifiers, thickeners... added (that aren't naturally in it, as they would with a fermented product), I think, sabotages the learner - if a dish needs MSG, or an emulsifier or thickener added, I would rather want it to FAIL and teach me that it needs these things than being saved by accident...


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## Jovidah (Feb 13, 2017)

valgard said:


> Glutamate is just one of the 20 natural amino acids present in proteins, one of the most common ones but by no means you can break a protein into just glutamate. Also, denaturalizing a protein refers mostly to "unwrapping it from it's naturally "folded" structure. Aggressive denaturalization can lead to the breakage of some bonds into smaller peptides (read smaller proteins) but you would be hard pressed in a kitchen to break a protein into it's constituent amino acids. What denaturalization can do is change the structure and thus, texture and flavour of the said proteins.
> 
> You denaturalize proteins when cooking an egg for example, but don't break said proteins.



As I said... I'm not an expert and maybe I didn't use the right terms. But there must be _something_ going on to change the flavour in the stock and create that 'oompf'. Same goes for some other stews that just get 'better' after hitting the stove for 12 hours.
Same thing happens when you age cheese...at some point (for example in parmiggiano) proteins turn into glutamate.



LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Any cooking ingredient that comes with MSG, emulsifiers, thickeners... added (that aren't naturally in it, as they would with a fermented product), I think, sabotages the learner - if a dish needs MSG, or an emulsifier or thickener added, I would rather want it to FAIL and teach me that it needs these things than being saved by accident...



It's a fair point...but remember that a lot of 'traditional' cooking does the same thing. Adding anchovies, parmiggiano, fish sauce or soy sauce to a dish is effecitvely a means of adding more naturally occuring MSG.
Making a roux is effectively creating a thickening agent from the flour. Egg yolks are often used as an emulsifier.

I agree, using completely readymade stuff keeps you from understanding what you're really doing... but so do a lot of traditional recipes.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 13, 2017)

Yep - but then it is an intrinsic property of the anchovies or soy sauce, not a manufactured property.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 13, 2017)

Anchovies, Worcestershire sauce all natural . Making stocks is the foundation of classical cooking. saving bones, shells, fish heads no waste possibilities for sauces endless. Asians simmer pork bones for noodle stock.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 13, 2017)

Or even tomatoes (probably the reason why a sauce/soup made from tomatoes and aromatics can still taste great without using any stock or stock cube)....


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## Jovidah (Feb 13, 2017)

Not to be a smartass, but soy sauce and worcestershire sauce aren't exactly naturally occuring. They are fermented recipes. That's really not all that different from how some of the artificial stuff is made. They've just been around longer.

In general I agree with your low view of all the overproduced industrial crap - I perform better without it - but I do think the distinction from some of the more traditional products is rather artificial and overstated.


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## brianh (Feb 13, 2017)

College Inn used to make Bold chicken and beef stocks that were pretty good, but I believe not so natural. That was my go-to for store bought stuff. There's an east coast supermarket chain called ShopRite that has a house brand organic chicken stock that's surprisingly not bad.


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## labor of love (Feb 13, 2017)

Is making a stock at home really that inconvenient for some of you guys? Bones+leeks+onions+celery and carrots in a pot with a slow bubble going for a few hours while periodically ladling out scum? I do this on a lazy day off from work while doing other chores around the house and I usually yield enough to stock my freezer for a couple of months.


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## valgard (Feb 13, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Is making a stock at home really that inconvenient for some of you guys? Bones+leeks+onions+celery and carrots in a pot with a slow bubble going for a few hours while periodically ladling out scum? I do this on a lazy day off from work while doing other chores around the house and I usually yield enough to stock my freezer for a couple of months.



For me making it is not the problem, heck, in the PC it's suuuuper easy and I can even program the whole thing. The problem for me is storage, can send you a pic of my fridge and it's more cramped than sardines in a can.


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## labor of love (Feb 13, 2017)

valgard said:


> For me making it is not the problem, heck, in the PC it's suuuuper easy and I can even program the whole thing. The problem for me is storage, can send you a pic of my fridge and it's more cramped than sardines in a can.



In that case you can always just reduce the finished stock by half or even more. Even fresh veg stock makes a huge difference


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## labor of love (Feb 13, 2017)

I get the convenience of not making your own stock...it's just easy to do and makes all the difference.


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## Castalia (Feb 13, 2017)

For home use, I pour my chicken stock into an ice cube tray and several small plastic containers. I just pull out a cube or two of stock at a time from the freezer when I want to use it. Also agree with just reducing it down to 2/3rds or half. And since this is a confessional I have used a bullion cube or two in my day. The Knorr ones seem pretty good.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 13, 2017)

@labor of love got the same problem as valgard - any experience with reducing it FAR more (salty mud state)?

And pressure cooker veg stock, tried it once, was kinda bitter and muted...


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## Nemo (Feb 13, 2017)

valgard said:


> For me making it is not the problem, heck, in the PC it's suuuuper easy and I can even program the whole thing. The problem for me is storage, can send you a pic of my fridge and it's more cramped than sardines in a can.



Can't you just store it outside in rhe Canadian winter? ;-)


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## valgard (Feb 13, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Can't you just store it outside in rhe Canadian winter? ;-)



That's where I make ice cubes. An yes, I have stored food outside more than once, a Turkey slept outside for two weeks before christmas and some frozen vegetables have been there inside the grill for a while too but it's too. However, the temperature is very unreliable here in Calgary with Chinooks warming up things a day or two in between very cold temps (today it was well above freezing for example).


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 13, 2017)

For me it's not about nutrition or anything but flavor. I make my own stock because the soups, stews, braises, sauces, etc. end up tasting better when I use it. However, a big part of that is the salt content of instant stock and the lack of flexibility due thereto, as well as the sugar in those that include it. I measure mine into freezer bags and freeze them into blocks in plastic containers so they at least stack flat; it does take up a lot of freezer space though! Beef, pork, chicken, vegetable, mushroom, and other poultry when I've cooked one recently, not to mentioning the running bags of bones and parts.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 13, 2017)

You can put stock in the small size freezer bags. take air out so can lay them flat. Does not take up too much space & you can break off what you need for a dish.


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## panda (Feb 14, 2017)

yes, reduce and freeze in ziploc bags with as much air taken out you can manage then laid flat. 

you can get stock in already reduced state:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0010OOLOQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 14, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Is making a stock at home really that inconvenient for some of you guys? Bones+leeks+onions+celery and carrots in a pot with a slow bubble going for a few hours while periodically ladling out scum? I do this on a lazy day off from work while doing other chores around the house and I usually yield enough to stock my freezer for a couple of months.



Right.


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## Devon_Steven (Feb 14, 2017)

I just made this stock yesterday...







2 chicken carcasses, some pork shoulder bones, pork ribs and a pig's foot + usual veg and bay leaves; then reduced by about 65 per cent to leave 1.6 litres of concentrated stock.

Unfrozen it is a very thick jelly.

Flinging one or two of these iced cubes into a pasta sauce (for two servings) really boosts the flavour.

Perfect for home cooking


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## guari (Feb 14, 2017)

Devon_Steven said:


> I just made this stock yesterday...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah! Good stuff for sure!


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## DDPslice (Feb 14, 2017)

mmm jelly stock is the best! The making of the stock is not the problem, it is simply my laziness, and cleaning, oh gawd the cleaning. 

For pressure cooking stock, @life you probably a)cooked at too high of a temperature b) didn't do multiple cooks with the same liquid. 
I follow Dave Arnolds method and do about three rounds. In the first round I do the carcasses/bones but I think I'm going to try that step at a lower temp (my PC is not adjustable, classic Hawkins FTW) Second and third round is veggies. The parsley which I don't put in every stock goes when the third round is complete and the stock is still warm I throw it in and cover it and let it come down to temp. Though I need to try and do the bones at the end maybe because I've only been lucky twice and made a 'clear-ish' stock. Taste wise was good though, I'd just throw in a bullion cube. (just kidding)

I need to start freezing stock cubes.


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