# Fastest stones on the market



## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm looking for something that eats steel much faster than a JNS 300 or King Deluxe 300. 
So far, my choices are Shapton Glass 120, Sigma Power Series 120 and JKI's Diamond 300A stone.
It will be used primarily to abrade tough stainless steel blades that takes too long with JNS 300/King Deluxe 300.
Anyone has experience with these stones? Besides using diamond plates are there any other choices?
I remember that Dave Martell used to sell a pink brick that sounded good also...

Thanks for the answers!


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## Asteger (Mar 9, 2016)

Hmm... I have a Shapton 220 and the JNS 300. Yes, the 220 is faster but also a bit coarser, so it shouldn't be a surprise. Aside from diamonds or griders, I wonder if it's possible to get faster than this?


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 9, 2016)

True, i have no idea how much faster (than the above mentioned 300 grit stones) a stone can be. Has anyone used Shapton Glass 120?


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## JBroida (Mar 9, 2016)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> I'm looking for something that eats steel much faster than a JNS 300 or King Deluxe 300.
> So far, my choices are Shapton Glass 120, Sigma Power Series 120 and JKI's Diamond 300A stone.
> It will be used primarily to abrade tough stainless steel blades that takes too long with JNS 300/King Deluxe 300.
> Anyone has experience with these stones? Besides using diamond plates are there any other choices?
> ...



I dont think my stone is the way to go here... its fast, but not as fast as a big pink 220. I use it because it dishes EXTREMELY slowly, cuts very consistently, works well on all steels at about the same speed, takes out scratches from my waterwheel quickly, and can be followed up by a medium grit stone.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 9, 2016)

Thanks, Jon! I'll keep in mind the pink 220 is faster than your diamond stone.


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## chinacats (Mar 9, 2016)

My sidewalk...


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## CoqaVin (Mar 9, 2016)

I am a natural stone guy, but for repairs and thinning, I use the Suehiro Cerax 320


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## psfred (Mar 9, 2016)

I suspect if you are really grinding a huge amount of steel off you should be using a belt grinder rather than stones. Accuracy is not as good, but you will remove the excess metal much faster. Once you have gotten the shape correct you can switch to a 300 grit stone to start cleaning up. My King Deluxe 300 isn't much slower than a 200 grit diamond plate. 

I would not apex a knife with a very coarse stone, either -- scratches are very deep at the apex and you will have to grind them out to get a good edge, much faster to use a finer stone to produce the actual apex the first time.

Peter


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## WingKKF (Mar 9, 2016)

The pink brick works pretty fast but will also dish very easily. A powered tool like a belt sander would probably be the fastest way to thin out knives and a cheap Chinese belt sander would cost about the same as a good stone.


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## jacko9 (Mar 9, 2016)

The Atoma 140 will remove metal quickly but I have already worn down one 140 plate with aggressive metal removal by dislodging the diamond particles from the matrix so, I would suggest a good aggressive stone or power sander with the caution that heat build up can effect your heat treatment. I have a 150 bamboo stone that cuts very quickly and doesn't dish much at all. My Shapton Pro 320 is less aggressive but, stays flat much longer than my Suehiro Cerax 320 which I find hollows out very quickly.


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## osakajoe (Mar 10, 2016)

The sigma 120 is great but it does clog up easily and will require a few laps here and there to continue eating steel.


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## Matus (Mar 10, 2016)

I would just say that I am also starting to look for a coarse, fast cutting stone that I could use to adjust blade grind (I am starting with knife making) after HT. The bamboo 150 stones sounds very interesting.


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## panda (Mar 10, 2016)

what about these 
http://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa.html


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## Jovidah (Mar 10, 2016)

If they're anything like their cheap flattening stones (that are made of the same material, only in slightly different shapes) then I wouldn't be very enthusiastic about them. They glaze and clog a lot and then just stop working.


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## Mucho Bocho (Mar 10, 2016)

I went through this exercise a few months ago. My set is completely splash and go.

220 Shapton Glass Stone
500 Shapton Glass Stone
1K JKI Diamond
6K JKI Diamond
8K Takenoko

I did a knife today on the 220 today. Just hogged steel off, admittedly it wants a very hard knife. Feels good, nice feedback, stays very flat. FWIW, I'm happy with it.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 10, 2016)

Mucho, why did you choose the 220 Shapton Glass instead of the 120 Shapton Glass as your coursest? By the way, i love JKI diamond stones and the Takenoko. Nice set you got there!


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## Asteger (Mar 10, 2016)

panda said:


> what about these http://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa.html



So coarse, I imagine they'd disintegrate immediately


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## jacko9 (Mar 10, 2016)

Matus said:


> I would just say that I am also starting to look for a coarse, fast cutting stone that I could use to adjust blade grind (I am starting with knife making) after HT. The bamboo 150 stones sounds very interesting.



The nice thing about the Bamboo 150 is not only does it dish very slowly, it's a full 50mm thick and should last a very long time. I have been using it for about a year now and whenever I have a chisel or wood plane iron that needs repairs it is my go to stone.

Jack


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## Asteger (Mar 10, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> The nice thing about the Bamboo 150 is not only does it dish very slowly, it's a full 50mm thick and should last a very long time. I have been using it for about a year now and whenever I have a chisel or wood plane iron that needs repairs it is my go to stone.



This all sounds promising


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## jacko9 (Mar 10, 2016)

Asteger said:


> This all sounds promising



I can go directly from the Bamboo 150 to either my Shapton Prop 320 or my Shapton Glass 500 depending on the steel I'm working on. The 150 bamboo needs to be soaked but once wet just needs a spritz of water from time to time, it develops some mud and is a very aggressive cutter.


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## Mucho Bocho (Mar 10, 2016)

Marcelo, I read someplace that the 120 felt horrible and left gouges in the steel. The 220 doesn't do that and leaves a nice consistent scratch pattern.


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## Asteger (Mar 10, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Marcelo, I read someplace that the 120 felt horrible and left gouges in the steel. The 220 doesn't do that and leaves a nice consistent scratch pattern.



Yeah, so far the 220 is pretty nice. My first Shapton, too. As said, haven't experienced the 120. (When buying I worried at such a low grit, it'd be dish time) I got the impression that below 200 or 150 you might suffer


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 10, 2016)

Have a shapton pro 120 and it has a gritty feel to it and seems less dense than the 220. I haven't used it yet so can't comment on how it functions. I will say that I would have gone with the shapton glass 120 if I hadn't got a great deal on the pro. 15 bucks new.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks for the help, everyone! Now i'm tempted to get both Shapton Glass 120 and 220.


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## psfred (Mar 10, 2016)

If you are making knives you really need a belt grinder -- any manumatic means of grinding knives will take far too long. You can start cheap, but you will end up with a Kalamazoo sooner or later if you are serious, or a self-made clone (all the drive and idler wheels are readily available). 

I've tried, and believe me, you NEED a belt grinder unless you only want to make one knife every six months or so....

Peter


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 10, 2016)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Thanks for the help, everyone! Now i'm tempted to get both Shapton Glass 120 and 220.



This is what I'd do. I'll soon have a full shapton glass progression again. I foolishly sold most of mine a while back because of recomdations that's the pro were so much better..... News flash! They're NOT!


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## Matus (Mar 11, 2016)

psfred said:


> If you are making knives you really need a belt grinder -- any manumatic means of grinding knives will take far too long. You can start cheap, but you will end up with a Kalamazoo sooner or later if you are serious, or a self-made clone (all the drive and idler wheels are readily available).
> 
> I've tried, and believe me, you NEED a belt grinder unless you only want to make one knife every six months or so....
> 
> Peter



It is not that bad without a belt grinder. I have just sent my first 3 blades for HT - two are about 90mm outdoor blades and one 165mm kitchen blade. I have used a manual jig (as designed by Aaroun Gough and presented in his video: 

[video=youtube;r9iNDRwwBQQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ&list=PL1g_Yu3cjapPegPi2Cx1Trgd9HTq76y8X&index=46[/video]). 

I needed about 2-3 hours (including surface finishing as the file leaves deep scratches) for the small blades and a little more for the kitchen knife and I expect to get a little faster with time. But I also do not expect to make more than 2 blades a month (it is just a hobby). But what you really NEED is the best quality files you can find - I use Swisss DICK files - there is no comparison in effecctiveness compared to 'normal' ones I can find in local hardware store. Would I get a belt grinder if the boundary conditions were different? Sure, but for starters it is not a must.

But back on topic - a fast, very coarse stone will still probably be needed if the grind needs correction after HT. I will probably give that Bamboo 150 a try.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 11, 2016)

psfred said:


> If you are making knives you really need a belt grinder -- any manumatic means of grinding knives will take far too long. You can start cheap, but you will end up with a Kalamazoo sooner or later if you are serious, or a self-made clone (all the drive and idler wheels are readily available).
> 
> I've tried, and believe me, you NEED a belt grinder unless you only want to make one knife every six months or so....
> 
> Peter



Peter, i wish i were making knives. It's just this knife from my neighbour that i took to sharpen. It proved incredibly abrade-resistant. Not even my JNS 300 (or King Deluxe 300) could raise a burr on it. So, i'm taking this opportunity to increase my sharpening set.


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## psfred (Mar 11, 2016)

Lol, a file is useless after HT unless you need to blunt a file for some reason (I have plenty of blunt files, no need to make one on purpose....).

That knife may not be as abrasion resistant as much as just very very fat behind the edge - -I've seen inexpensive knives with a 90 degree included angle that were essentially flat, thin stainless with a super fat edge. I gave up on stones, used the bench grinder, and would have used a belt sander if I'd had one then. It's not that the steel is so hard to work as that you have to remove so much. A diamond stone works pretty well for that, but you must be careful with "gummy" stainless and diamond plates -- it's far to easy to pull the diamonds off the plate if you use any pressure. Don't ask how I know....

Peter


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## natto (Mar 12, 2016)

panda said:


> what about these
> http://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa.html





Jovidah said:


> If they're anything like their cheap flattening stones (that are made of the same material, only in slightly different shapes) then I wouldn't be very enthusiastic about them. They glaze and clog a lot and then just stop working.



Both are right and I love my carborundums. I used this one from Zische  for initial grind and sharpening of a small knife after HT. It only needs moderate pressure and doesn't clog or become glassy. Speed seems good, but I can only compare to finer stones or other carborundums.

Silicone carbide breaks down and some of these stones out there are pretty hard. That maybe the reason most people hate them. Used with little pressure the grit breaks down and the surface becomes finer and finer. The Zische returns to lower grit with increased pressure, the hard ones need to be opened with silicone carbide powder.

I kept my carborundums open with the rough side of the Zische, but lately got a cheap double sized one which denies to work. So my next order will be two more rough quality carborundums and silicone carbide powder


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## cheflivengood (Mar 12, 2016)

Matus said:


> It is not that bad without a belt grinder. I have just sent my first 3 blades for HT - two are about 90mm outdoor blades and one 165mm kitchen blade. I have used a manual jig (as designed by Aaroun Gough and presented in his video:
> 
> [video=youtube;r9iNDRwwBQQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ&list=PL1g_Yu3cjapPegPi2Cx1Trgd9HTq76y8X&index=46[/video]).
> 
> ...



awesome video and simple tool!


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## jacko9 (Mar 12, 2016)

Most of my recently purchased knives have been heat treated to RcH 62-65 which won't be cut with a file. I like the creativity of the posters jig but does he ever list what hardness knives can be sharpened with a file?


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## cheflivengood (Mar 12, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Most of my recently purchased knives have been heat treated to RcH 62-65 which won't be cut with a file. I like the creativity of the posters jig but does he ever list what hardness knives can be sharpened with a file?



I'm deffinetly not an expert and could be wrong....but doesn't Kato use a draw-knife on hardened steel? if it can be sliced it can be filed in my opinion...thoughts?


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## jacko9 (Mar 12, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> I'm deffinetly not an expert and could be wrong....but doesn't Kato use a draw-knife on hardened steel? if it can be sliced it can be filed in my opinion...thoughts?



A draw knife (or scraper) can be heat treated to a RcH hardness above 65 but keep in mind that it's a single edge tool not a multiple edge file that can be re-sharpened. A file with multiple edges can't be re-sharpened and that's why they don't heat treat them to that high of a hardness. Does this make sense?


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## cheflivengood (Mar 12, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> A draw knife (or scraper) can be heat treated to a RcH hardness above 65 but keep in mind that it's a single edge tool not a multiple edge file that can be re-sharpened. A file with multiple edges can't be re-sharpened and that's why they don't heat treat them to that high of a hardness. Does this make sense?



yes it does, how does one make a file, or the texture that does the filing?


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## jacko9 (Mar 12, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> yes it does, how does one make a file, or the texture that does the filing?



A file that can cleave metal at RcH65 has to be heat treated above that level and it will be quite brittle. A knife heat treated to that level is possibly subjected to chipping and a file hardened to a higher level to her able to cut that knife is even subject to even higher brittle levels.


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## psfred (Mar 13, 2016)

Files are used on annealed steel blanks to make knives. Belt grinders are faster if you know what you are doing, and required after the knife is heat treated to harden and temper it.

A good file is a requirement if you want to use one even on annealed blanks -- the ones you get at the hardware store or big box store are essentially useless. 

For kitchen knives, which are usually much larger than the typical specialty knife, I recomment a belt sander or belt grinder -- even a cheap Harbor Freight one inch wide one is faster than a file.

One you harden the knife, you are stuck with a belt grinder or stones, no file is going to do anything but skate around on it.

Peter


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## Matus (Mar 13, 2016)

Guys, I posted that video in a certain context  - it is meant to bevel annealed steel, not hardened.

In general, high quality files are abotu HRC65-67 - I would not want to use them on HRC60+ steel. They would not last long. Not on monosteel knives that is.

The comment about Kato - do not forget that all his knives have soft, non-hardened cladding. So even after HT he can scrape metal away - because it is soft.

I agree - belt grinder (or wheel grinder) is the way to with for speed and efficiency. Stones are for masochist like me


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## Iggy (Mar 13, 2016)

Matus said:


> The comment about Kato - do not forget that all his knives have soft, non-hardened cladding. So even after HT he can scrape metal away - because it is soft.



Actually a friend measured his Kato Workhorse and got 63 HRC for the core steel and 57 HRC (probably due to carbon diffusion, near the core steel). I think that's why the Kato feels so stiff... but of course, can vary...


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## superk17 (Mar 15, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> The Atoma 140 will remove metal quickly but I have already worn down one 140 plate with aggressive metal removal by dislodging the diamond particles from the matrix so, I would suggest a good aggressive stone or power sander with the caution that heat build up can effect your heat treatment. I have a 150 bamboo stone that cuts very quickly and doesn't dish much at all. My Shapton Pro 320 is less aggressive but, stays flat much longer than my Suehiro Cerax 320 which I find hollows out very quickly.[/QUOTE
> 
> I second that, I have Atoma 140 and once when I actually wasn't paying attention I my small petty turned to tiny tiny petty. Also, I have Shapton 220 and for some reason I prefer ceramic 220 over Atoma 140, even though 140 can be very fast.


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## WingKKF (Mar 15, 2016)

The reason I prefer a rough waterstone over a low grit diamond plate is the diamond plate has a really horrible feel and will generally create deep uneven scratches that is very hard to remove with the next grit up. My diamond plate is only used for flattening my waterstones.


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## Mucho Bocho (Mar 15, 2016)

Mirrors my experience as well. I like the Atoma plates for stone maintenance, stone shaping and creating a slurry and the 1K/6K JKI diamond stones for sharpening.



WingKKF said:


> The reason I prefer a rough waterstone over a low grit diamond plate is the diamond plate has a really horrible feel and will generally create deep uneven scratches that is very hard to remove with the next grit up. My diamond plate is only used for flattening my waterstones.


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