# Takeda cleaver comparison - New vs Old (pic heavy)



## chobint (Oct 19, 2013)

I have recently acquired two Takeda cleavers. A relatively new one and the old andy777 cleaver. I've put a hair popping edge on both of them, but am noticing quite a discrepancy in cutting performance. The older cleaver is remarkably thicker and heavier. It also has a flatter profile, which I prefer. The new cleaver has a great distal taper and is very thinly forged. To my surprise, the older cleaver far outperforms the new cleaver. The older blade, while much thicker in general has a taller bevel and is thinner behind the edge. This cleaver falls through food with the slightest sawing motion. The newer cleaver has a relatively shorter bevel and will split carrots like a wedge rather than cutting them. Thus reinforcing that thinness behind the edge is a key dimension in cutting performance.


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## JohnnyChance (Oct 19, 2013)

Nice comparison. Luckily, you can pretty easily take the newer one to the stones and widen that bevel while you thin behind the edge as well.


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## brainsausage (Oct 19, 2013)

You got the AndyTakedaChuka and didn't immediately sacrifice the other Takeda chuka as a means of appeasing the knife gods...?!?

What did you expect to happen....???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?????!!!?


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## chobint (Oct 19, 2013)

Here's a few extra pics to show the thickness behind the edge. I do wonder if the old one was thinned at some point or if that was just the way they came back then.

New Cleaver





Old Cleaver


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## Sambal (Oct 19, 2013)

Is the new one SS clad? If it is, how does it compare?


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 19, 2013)

Chobint you made good observation.I think you nailed it.The heavier blade with the taller bevel because of those two factors can make it a better cutter.Cleavers are great tools finding one that cuts well,hold on to it.


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## XooMG (Oct 19, 2013)

I might have a Takeda stainless nakiri on the way, and I wonder if the new ones' geometry lives up to the oldies. Thanks for showing this and stimulating my paranoia. :knife:


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## quantumcloud509 (Oct 19, 2013)

brainsausage said:


> You got the AndyTakedaChuka and didn't immediately sacrifice the other Takeda chuka as a means of appeasing the knife gods...?!?
> 
> What did you expect to happen....???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?????!!!?



lol


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## quantumcloud509 (Oct 19, 2013)

From what I remember, Andy put some time into making that cleaver "just right" for himself. The profile felt much more proper to me over the rest of my cleaver family which I own which are all more bellied. Thank you for sharpening it properly, it was one thing I always struggled with because of its size and angles. Old skool Takedas are definetly way more badars than the new ones. Maybe back then Mr. Takeda built knives with more passion, and now the time is here to build knives to help retire. Looks like the Andy cleaver has 1/3 more metal on it than the new one.


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## echerub (Oct 19, 2013)

Talking with someone who was over at Takeda's workshop for a few days last month, and who has visited Takeda a few times already, it's not a matter of passion. The impression I get is that Shosui Takeda is as passionate about knives and jnats as best of us here.

He is either adjusting based on what he's told end users want, or the pressure of working through a backlog of orders for his "classic clad" knives while aiming to fully transition to the stainless clad knives within a year is taking a bit of a toll.

My bet would be on the former.*


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## chobint (Oct 19, 2013)

These are both classic carbon clad knives. As an avid home cook, I have never had issues with the cladding.

Regarding the quality and passion behind Takeda's knives: Ignoring the edge profile, which has too much belly, the quality of the forging on the new knife is far superior imo. It is thicker at the spine, has a great distal taper and thins out from spine to edge. I can echo this for my 240 gyuto as well. The secondary bevel, however, is a bit too obtuse. I have noticed in general that all 3 of my Takeda's have come with the 1200grit finish with no stropping and thus a wire edge. This was somewhat disappointing for me, as the review on zKnives said that his came polished to 4k(ish?) and poppin sharp.

Quantum,
Thanks for the sale. It is a gorgeous knife. The heavy brass spacers help bring the balance back towards the handle just a smidge. Feels nice and gets stuck in my board if I throw its weight around too much. I will be starting a new thread here soon with a semi-guided freehand system I've devised (non-proprietary). While I do enjoy sharpening completely free hand, its nice to have a easier way to get a good convex japanese edge on things.


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## Dave Martell (Oct 19, 2013)

Takedas knives recently have been getting really thick down at the edge, or directly behind it, and it's not something easily fixed with stones. They've taken some of the best performing knives and turned them into Henckels, not cool.

This is an exaggerated drawing to show the difference between what he used to make and what he's putting out these days.....


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## droshi (Oct 19, 2013)

Disappointing to hear as I've always wanted one of these laser cleavers. Besides the cck is there another cleaver that comes super thin behind the edge?


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## mikemac (Oct 19, 2013)

Hey Dave...if we go back 4-5 years or more, weren't Takeda's hollow or concave grind behind the edge to some degree?


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## Dave Martell (Oct 19, 2013)

mikemac said:


> Hey Dave...if we go back 4-5 years or more, weren't Takeda's hollow or concave grind behind the edge to some degree?




Yes they were and that was the whole blade and the edge bevel was thin and ground up higher into the hollow. The new grind is almost the exact opposite.


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## mkriggen (Oct 19, 2013)

Does anybody know if you can specify the old style geometry if you special order direct from Takeda?


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## brainsausage (Oct 19, 2013)

It's my understanding that he'll do just about any type of custom work you ask for. Go check out Mr.Magnus' custom. Thing looks frickin awesome.


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## Sdkkds (Oct 19, 2013)

Dave Martell said:


> Takedas knives recently have been getting really thick down at the edge, or directly behind it, and it's not something easily fixed with stones. They've taken some of the best performing knives and turned them into Henckels, not cool.
> 
> This is an exaggerated drawing to show the difference between what he used to make and what he's putting out these days.....



How would you go about fixing it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free


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## Dave Martell (Oct 19, 2013)

Dave Martell said:


> Takedas knives recently have been getting really thick down at the edge, or directly behind it, and it's not something easily fixed with stones. They've taken some of the best performing knives and turned them into Henckels, not cool.
> 
> This is an exaggerated drawing to show the difference between what he used to make and what he's putting out these days.....





Sdkkds said:


> How would you go about fixing it?




The ones I've seen I wouldn't want to try. I can't imagine how you could do this without screwing up the kuroichi finish. The grinding work needs to be so isolated just above the edge and the blade will wobble there as it's sticking out thick. I'm not saying that it can't be done but rather it's going to be messy and a lot of work as well. In my opinion this is a forge issue.


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## Dave Martell (Oct 19, 2013)

I wanted to mention that I dig Takeda's knives, always have, and that I hope that this info gets back to him so that he can re-evaluate what's being put out and get back to making those killer knives we've all come to appreciate so much.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 19, 2013)

His old blades it sounds like were the best flatter profile,drop nose.Convex edge that blends into the side of the blade.I've had old Japan carbon gyuto's like that.They just glide thru foods.I swear by the old style blades Those forgers deff. knew what they were doing.


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## EdipisReks (Oct 19, 2013)

Dave Martell said:


> Takedas knives recently have been getting really thick down at the edge, or directly behind it, and it's not something easily fixed with stones. They've taken some of the best performing knives and turned them into Henckels, not cool.
> 
> This is an exaggerated drawing to show the difference between what he used to make and what he's putting out these days.....



I've noticed the same thing, from the pics people have been posting of new Takedas. The first Takeda I owned, which was the "special edition" that one store sold a few years ago, was pretty thick, but even it wasn't as bad as what I've seen recently, in pictures. The other Takedas I owned were older, and had thickened up with use, but it was obvious that they had once been very thin, and it was fairly easy to fix the geometry. I wonder if different craftsmen are finishing them, or if it's just a symptom of making too many knives?


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## Justin0505 (Oct 20, 2013)

ths bevel on my nakiri and then ts now the best cuter that i own. Food release is also excellent with the new grind, and im guessing is a big part od tye reason for changing.


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## panda (Oct 20, 2013)

going by the drawing, i think i would enjoy the new grind, i don't like the old style takeda but this thicker version seems interesting aside from the horrible profile and being actually too tall.


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## EdipisReks (Oct 20, 2013)

panda said:


> going by the drawing, i think i would enjoy the new grind, i don't like the old style takeda but this thicker version seems interesting aside from the horrible profile and being actually too tall.



it would likely be a wedging machine.


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## panda (Oct 20, 2013)

not once you put in a few hours of work to adjust the geometry


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## EdipisReks (Oct 20, 2013)

might take more than a few hours, though.


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## Chuckles (Oct 20, 2013)

This is all very interesting. Dave's first drawing is a very good exaggerated depiction of my Takeda. It is still very thin behind the ege when compared to every knife I see that is owned by a non KKFer. And the release is exceptional.

Is that what is referred to as an "S" grind sometimes?


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## JohnnyChance (Oct 20, 2013)

Chuckles said:


> Is that what is referred to as an "S" grind sometimes?



Yes, I suppose it would, but really its just a concave grind/geometry. They have been around for a long time but only recently have people started referring to them as an S grind. I'm not sure where the S thing started, but it's just an name for something that already exists. Since you can't concave/hollow grind a kitchen knife for the entirety of it's blade face, like you could a razor, the middle portion of the blade is hollowed out, either by grinding, forging or other methods. The problem with grinding the entire face hollow, other than needing a very large and specific radius, is being able to maintain the geometry. You wouldn't be able to continue the hollow with a flat stone. So instead a bevel from the hollow to edge is ground. The width and prominence varies. Some are very obvious (Takeda, Heiji, etc) some less so (Marko, Shigefusa, etc). Either way, you can sharpen the knife and maintain it's geometry. The short convex bevel is just part of a concave grind, not a unique feature of some knives requiring a different name. 

The only other concave ground knives I can think of that do not have a convex bevel behind the edge are some custom knives made by guys who have no business making kitchen knives; or restaurant house knives, which are basically flat ground and then sharpened/thinned on a machine that grinds both bevels at the same time before they put the final edge bevel on. Neither of these styles are at all effective or discussed here so I don't see the need to distinguish between them and the concave geometries described above. Just as there are effective and ineffective convex geometries there are effective and ineffective concave geometries. 

Thus ends my rant against the term "S grind".


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 20, 2013)

JMO double bevel from a Katana sword,Cleavers heavy bone to lite veg.,Gyuto's,Machete's,convex rules.


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## Justin0505 (Oct 20, 2013)

Justin0505 said:


> ths bevel on my nakiri and then ts now the best cuter that i own. Food release is also excellent with the new grind, and im guessing is a big part od tye reason for changing.



Ugh so taptalk cut half of my post off and apparently failed auto correct too. 

What I was trying to say was that I have a Takeda nakiri with this grind and its one of the best cutters i own while also being low drag and excellent at food release. 

My blade was very thin to begin with, but I spent less than an hour streamlining behind the edge. 

A cleaver would be a slightly bigger undertaking, but the 270mm passaround gyuto i used also wouldnt have taken much work to get it cutting more like how most ppl on here like.


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## chobint (Oct 20, 2013)

Well then I stand corrected on my forging comment. That picture of the S grind does seem to be whats going on with my knife and it is indeed a wedging monster. I have begun thinning. This is about an hours worth of work. I'm sure there's another 2-3 hours to go.






On a lighter note, I got the old cleaver stuck in the board BAD. Sword in the stone style.


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## mkriggen (Oct 20, 2013)

Justin0505 said:


> Ugh so taptalk cut half of my post off and apparently failed auto correct too.
> 
> What I was trying to say was that I have a Takeda nakiri with this grind and its one of the best cutters i own while also being low drag and excellent at food release.
> 
> ...



LOL...I was wondering what was going on there. Thought maybe you'd gone a little heavy on the soma after working a double.:spin chair:



Be Well,
Mikey


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## Chuckles (Oct 20, 2013)

FWIW I will say that using Justin's Takeda Nakiri was creepy for me. The cutting resistance on onion julienne is about the same as just waving the knife in the air. If I wasn't guiding with my left hand I am not confident I would have been able to tell when actual cutting began and ended. No exaggeration.


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## labor of love (Oct 20, 2013)

mkriggen said:


> Does anybody know if you can specify the old style geometry if you special order direct from Takeda?


so a takeda custom is indeed on my shortlist of future purchases...so just to be clear if i wanted an older style geometry i would request a concave grind with a large bevel?
BTW thanks for the pics chobent.


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## Justin0505 (Oct 20, 2013)

mkriggen said:


> LOL...I was wondering what was going on there. Thought maybe you'd gone a little heavy on the soma after working a double.:spin chair:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well the fact that Ive been in Paso wine country and hit 21 tastings in 3.5 days may also have played a part....


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## EdipisReks (Oct 20, 2013)

labor of love said:


> so a takeda custom is indeed on my shortlist of future purchases...so just to be clear if i wanted an older style geometry i would request a concave grind with a large bevel?
> BTW thanks for the pics chobent.



Probably. The pics of his current customs look really thick, so it appears that this new grind is his default, if you don't ask for something different. Or, you could just get a knife that doesn't need specificity.


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## erikz (Oct 22, 2013)

XooMG said:


> I might have a Takeda stainless nakiri on the way, and I wonder if the new ones' geometry lives up to the oldies. Thanks for showing this and stimulating my paranoia. :knife:


Here's a review on the SS Large Nakiri:

[video=youtube;BYv_mRCv9-Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYv_mRCv9-Y[/video]


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## Dave Martell (Oct 22, 2013)

erikz said:


> Here's a review on the SS Large Nakiri:
> 
> [video=youtube;BYv_mRCv9-Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYv_mRCv9-Y[/video]




That's an infomercial - not a "review". 

For the knife, it appears to have the little fat/thick wedge bevel.


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## erikz (Oct 22, 2013)

Sorry, wasnt aware of that.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 26, 2013)

Well ever since I saw Stepan's Takeda wanted one.Bought Quantum's 270mm Gyuto,he said that it was his first Takeda.It was in excellent shape,just needed a good sharpening.

Been using it for dinner prep for about a week.I can fully understand why people love these knives.It is very thin behind the edge,the bevel blends into the sides of the blade,It glides thru tomato's & cuts potato's without stiction.

I know it is a matter of taste,but I enjoy a Goose Island IPA & check out the slag finish with a Mag. glass to me it is beautiful,& functional too


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## Oui Chef (Nov 3, 2013)

erikz said:


> Here's a review on the SS Large Nakiri:
> 
> [video=youtube;BYv_mRCv9-Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYv_mRCv9-Y[/video]



"Takeda knives are know for a very high level of fit and finish."
C'mon man, I have two and we both know that's not the case. 
I love my takeda's and with some thinning on the shoulder they are both brilliant cutters- but the globs of epoxy around my sasanoha's handle, the rough spine and choil on my nakiri and the fact you can physically feel that the ferrule and rosewood are not sanded down to the same height are not signatures of a knifes with 'high levels of fit and finish'.

I agree with Dave on this. This is at best a poorly biased review and at worst an infomercial.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 3, 2013)

I don't know about the new Takeda's.The one I picked up has a big glob of epoxy at the horn.The handle itself is quite nice,I like the wide side octagons.The spine has a little bit of a wave in it,I am sure from the forge.

Does that bother me.not in the least.Tho the epoxy is a little much,you will not get any moisture in the handle.The spine has no effect in the cutting ability,which is excellent.I don't mind little imperfections on hand forged knives as long as it cuts well.As a matter of fact it gives the blade a little character.If you want perfection get a cookie cutter stainless wt. a nice rounded spine.


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## Justin0505 (Nov 3, 2013)

The epoxy is there by design, not accident. Asside from protecting the tang and handle, it's not uncomfortable. I sometimes hook a finger over that are when making draw cuts and appreciate the smooth roundness. 

F&F of the rest of the handle has been perfect and even on all 3 of the knives that I've used. 

You have to aproach these knives with the realization that Takeda has the skill to make any knid of knife that he wants, but has chosen this style with these features. They are different than other high end knives in a way that some can appreciate, but others don't understand.


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## echerub (Nov 3, 2013)

From what I understand, Takeda does not make the rosewood handles himself. He has a supplier who makes them - in fact, any of the rosewood handles we tend to come across from Japanese makers are probably made by that one guy.

But yes, the gob of epoxy is a Takeda signature feature 

I have no issues with Takeda's F&F, but I wouldn't call it super-refined either. It's functional and good, but not the real selling point of the knives.


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## Oui Chef (Nov 3, 2013)

I have no issue with the finish either,
They deserve their cutting reputation for sure, my nakiri is the nicest thing I've ever put through an onion, you literally almost can't feel it going through the onion, it's a dream.
I just thought putting up FF as a selling point on takeda's in a vid was a touch innaccurate. I love rustic, will be getting a Kato soon hopefully, apparently not the greatest FF but apparently an amazing cutter. Personally for me it's about the moment when the knife is going through my mise en place, not looking pretty on a bench


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## erikz (Nov 4, 2013)

Oui Chef said:


> "Takeda knives are know for a very high level of fit and finish."
> C'mon man, I have two and we both know that's not the case.
> I love my takeda's and with some thinning on the shoulder they are both brilliant cutters- but the globs of epoxy around my sasanoha's handle, the rough spine and choil on my nakiri and the fact you can physically feel that the ferrule and rosewood are not sanded down to the same height are not signatures of a knifes with 'high levels of fit and finish'.
> 
> I agree with Dave on this. This is at best a poorly biased review and at worst an infomercial.


Although this video might be an infomercial (I wasn't aware of that, as I've said before), one cannot deny that Takeda knives are something special. I'm sure, as Justin is, that Shosui can make any style of knife, in any way he wants. He is very skilled and takes custom orders on the fly. 

I do like the rustic finish - his Kurouchi finish is one of a kind, the easy to sharpen edge and the overall thickness of his blades. The epoxy ensures a water tight finish on the handle, which lots of other makers do not have and moisture might get into the handle. 

All of the qualities above made me order a custom Nakiri (AS Classic), which Shosui is going to forge for me in the coming month. It's going to be an absolute beast, but thats the way I like Nakiri's (slightly oversized at 200mm long and 65mm high).


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## echerub (Nov 4, 2013)

Y'know, you're just a little shy of a chuka


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## erikz (Nov 4, 2013)

echerub said:


> Y'know, you're just a little shy of a chuka


I know  Blade height is more prominent on a chuka though


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## labor of love (Nov 4, 2013)

erikz said:


> I know  Blade height is more prominent on a chuka though



im usually not a nakiri person at all, but that tall blade height sounds really cool. please let us(or atleast me) know how it works out for you.


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## XooMG (Nov 4, 2013)

My nakiri's first F is pretty good; it's that second F that's imperfect. Some scuffing and scratches on the ferrule, but nothing to complain about.

And for what it's worth, though mine has some characteristics of the "new" geometry that Dave regards as a problem, the knife did not have any wedging problems in thick carrots. Perhaps the heavier, thicker blades would be affected, but the nakiri did a pretty great job of not wedging or sticking. I was expecting to be disappointed after going through this thread, too.


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## chobint (Nov 4, 2013)

erikz said:


> Although this video might be an infomercial (I wasn't aware of that, as I've said before), one cannot deny that Takeda knives are something special. I'm sure, as Justin is, that Shosui can make any style of knife, in any way he wants. He is very skilled and takes custom orders on the fly.
> 
> I do like the rustic finish - his Kurouchi finish is one of a kind, the easy to sharpen edge and the overall thickness of his blades. The epoxy ensures a water tight finish on the handle, which lots of other makers do not have and moisture might get into the handle.
> 
> All of the qualities above made me order a custom Nakiri (AS Classic), which Shosui is going to forge for me in the coming month. It's going to be an absolute beast, but thats the way I like Nakiri's (slightly oversized at 200mm long and 65mm high).



Sounds awesome. Looking forward to your impressions when it arrives.


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## chobint (Nov 5, 2013)

Well in case anyone needed closure on my cleaver dilemma (i did)... I've gone thru a couple stages of thinning. I started by trying to make the bevel look even and 'pretty'. The cutting performance was still unacceptable and it became apparent that there were lots of hotspots in the blade, especially toward the tip and heel. There were two things that made the blade finally perform, more thinning and straightening out the apparently warped blade. I may have been guilty of applying too much pressure while thinning, but I see now why people have described their Takedas as unacceptably thin and malleable. My new Takeda is unacceptably thin and malleable. I also flattened out the profile in the middle to give a nice sweet spot for chopping.

After all this, the new cleaver cuts like a dream as long as you have the natural weight of your shoulder and arm behind it in the push cut motion. However, it doesn't have nearly enough mass to do the wrist-flick slap-chop that the old cleaver excels at. She weighs in at 12.15oz (~345g) post thinning. I dare say I've learned that there is such a thing as too light a knife from this venture. Custom handle with depleted uranium spacers? Any takers?


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## erikz (Nov 5, 2013)

labor of love said:


> im usually not a nakiri person at all, but that tall blade height sounds really cool. please let us(or atleast me) know how it works out for you.


I will! I'll post pictures and my experience with the knife in the 'newest buy' thread so you can keep up with my expierence with the knife. 



chobint said:


> Sounds awesome. Looking forward to your impressions when it arrives.


Same goes for your request


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## erikz (Nov 5, 2013)

By the way, forgot to mention this; but Shosui usually produces a few copies of a custom order... So you might be able to order one with him if you like the one I'm going to get.


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## Oui Chef (Nov 5, 2013)

erikz said:


> Although this video might be an infomercial (I wasn't aware of that, as I've said before), one cannot deny that Takeda knives are something special. I'm sure, as Justin is, that Shosui can make any style of knife, in any way he wants. He is very skilled and takes custom orders on the fly.
> 
> I do like the rustic finish - his Kurouchi finish is one of a kind, the easy to sharpen edge and the overall thickness of his blades. The epoxy ensures a water tight finish on the handle, which lots of other makers do not have and moisture might get into the handle.
> 
> All of the qualities above made me order a custom Nakiri (AS Classic), which Shosui is going to forge for me in the coming month. It's going to be an absolute beast, but thats the way I like Nakiri's (slightly oversized at 200mm long and 65mm high).



one can't deny that they're special 
that's going to be one aggressive Nakiri :thumbsup: , sounds like an interesting overall profile, post pics when complete!


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## erikz (Nov 5, 2013)

Oui Chef said:


> one can't deny that they're special
> that's going to be one aggressive Nakiri :thumbsup: , sounds like an interesting overall profile, post pics when complete!


Will do  Ill keep you guys up-to-date.


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