# Your thoughts on stainless clad carbon knives



## Danzo (Oct 17, 2016)

I'm just curious what the forums thoughts are on stainless clad carbon? In theory it makes the most sense right? Carbon sharpness with stainless resistance. The only cons I can think of is the knife maybe being thicker than others since its a 3 piece sandwich. 

Just curious, are any other pros and cons out there? 

Also what knife makers make the best for the price?
I currently own a cheap tadafusa from epic edge, tall petty, I use it mainly for shallots and garlic, I like it!


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## Benuser (Oct 17, 2016)

As far as I know, it has gained popularity with the Hiromoto Aogami Super series. Easy maintenance, great core steel, at a reasonable price. Easy sharpening and performance of the core carbon core steel, easy maintenance of the stainless clad. Hiromotos aren't made anymore, the same idea can be found with http://japanesechefsknife.com/DeepImpactAogamiSuperSeries.html#DeepImpact
amongst the knives with a Western handle.
The pros are obvious. As for the cons, some feel a damped feeling. But above all, I would mention the difficult thinning with soft stainless, as it is so abrasion resistant. Some cladded are quite thick behind the edge, I should add. And the cladding makes it quite stiff -- you may like it, or not.


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## WildBoar (Oct 17, 2016)

The Hiromoto mentioned by Benuser was my gateway knife. What I found though is it really does not have less maintenance, since you still need to address the core/ edge. So it's not like you can use it and then leave it on the board without cleaning/ drying at least the edge. In general the overall blade appearance is easier to keep looking shiny, but the time/ effort savings is pretty modest.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Oct 17, 2016)

Danzo said:


> The only cons I can think of is the knife maybe being thicker than others since its a 3 piece sandwich.



Nope, you'd think that, but it doesn't work that way. Carters, the Ikazuchi series from JKI, the Goku - all are clad knives that are the epitome of thinness.


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## K813zra (Oct 17, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> The Hiromoto mentioned by Benuser was my gateway knife. What I found though is it really does not have less maintenance, since you still need to address the core/ edge. So it's not like you can use it and then leave it on the board without cleaning/ drying at least the edge. In general the overall blade appearance is easier to keep looking shiny, but the time/ effort savings is pretty modest.



I would agree that ease of maintenance is really over asserted. I have found that mono stainless knives are less likely to spot if improperly dried than softer stainless clad knives(at least with those that I have tried). And as you mentioned you still have to watch out for the core steel. At least in my experience ease of maintenance, overall, and J-knives just don't go together. Which is why my wife has her own knives...


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## JaVa (Oct 17, 2016)

The three layer construction doesn't necessarily meen any thicker than monosteel. Remember that most carbons are three layered anyway, only with softer reactive steel. I have Shiro Kamo Migaki B2 sanmai laser gyuto with reactive cladding that is ridiculously thin.

A couple of smiths come to mind who make ss cladded carbons.
Teruyasu Fujiwara: Praised use of W1. Grinds and f&f has some "flexibility". 
Yu Kurosaki: Uses AS. The Syousin Chiku is discussed on another thread at the moment.

The TF nashiji line is very reasonably prised.
Kurosaki Chiku also has a very tempting price point at K&S.


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## Benuser (Oct 17, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> The Hiromoto mentioned by Benuser was my gateway knife. What I found though is it really does not have less maintenance, since you still need to address the core/ edge. So it's not like you can use it and then leave it on the board without cleaning/ drying at least the edge. In general the overall blade appearance is easier to keep looking shiny, but the time/ effort savings is pretty modest.



You better don't do with a supposedly stainless either.


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## Matus (Oct 17, 2016)

With stainless clad carbon you will not get food discolouration or faux smell - something many carbon clad knives do before patina kicks in. And since the core steel (in particular those with little more alloys) patina less than the cladding, there is a real effect on maintenance. I have first hand experience with Masakage Koishi. In situations where cladding would start to rust, the aogami super just develops not very nice patina. I forgot to clean the Koishi once after cutting grapes - overnight. It did not look nice in the morning (it dried of course), but it did not rust. 

Beyond that it is pretty much a philosophical question. There are some really nice semi-stainless core steel knives with stainless cladding - Like Yoshikane SKD and those are about as close to carbon-like performing, but stainless-like maintaining as it gets.

Just my opinion, of course. 

P.S. I do not have a problem to maintain my carbon steel knives and do not consider that an issue or a hard to do. I prefer to keep my knives clean during longer prep (at home, mind you), so the fact that they are carbon does not make much difference - I clean the less-staining once with the same vigour.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 17, 2016)

I always have the effect that the hagane patinizes beautifully and the jigane rusts, maybe because I am such a fan of cooking with fruit, so I do not agree with Jon that you should never try this combination in a single bevel  And I guess I don't have to repeat I like the Goko nashiji a lot...


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## labor of love (Oct 17, 2016)

The only real benefit I can think of really for carbon clad knives is that the cladding is easier to thin/remove steel as opposed to stainless. Honestly if all of the makers I obsess over used stainless cladding instead if carbon I would be in heaven. Many if not most of the best jmakers happen to use carbon cladding and I've just learned to deal with it reluctantly.


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## foody518 (Oct 17, 2016)

Ikazuchi, Itinomonn Kasumi, Goko, Masakage Yuki. Have them, like them a lot. The Ikazuchi is more or less a laser and the Itinomonn is *really* thin behind the edge. Neither are wide bevels and with careful usage and touchups won't need thinning for a while yet. I'd still think thinning a stainless clad carbon is easier than doing a monosteel stainless of similar thickness and grind :3
Might possibly start trending back to carbon/soft iron clad carbon (KU helps), but man it's nice to not worry about stinky rusty cladding


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## daveb (Oct 17, 2016)

There was no conscious decision on my part but as I played with early knives, keeping some, selling some, I realized that most of the keepers were stainless clad stainless or stainless clad carbon.

I've a carbon Deba, Usaba, Yani and Suji as well as a few mono stainless but the day to day workers are clad from Carter, Yoshikane, Gengetsu, Tanaka, Watanabe and others. Clad knives can be super thin but most have just enough heft to go all day. Thinning is never fun but daily upkeep is considerably easier with stainless clad.

YMMV.


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## Benuser (Oct 17, 2016)

Soft stainless cladding will clog stones.


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## Danzo (Oct 17, 2016)

Yeah I was under that assumption. Good to know the knives aren't really thicker. I'm looking to get another knife here soon. Was thinking to get some stainless clad but it seems it doesn't make a difference. I just thought it'd be nice to have something since I'm jumping back and fourth between prep and line during service.

Anything worth mentioning under the 200$ benchmark??


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## Castalia (Oct 17, 2016)

Consider the Ikazuchi from JKI which is a very thin stainless clad super blue core. Not sure how it would hold up in a pro kitchen; it is on the laser side of things. :2cents:


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## panda (Oct 17, 2016)

stainless cladding is very unpleasant to work with when it comes to sharpening/thinning and for that sole reason i avoid it when ever possible.


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## chinacats (Oct 17, 2016)

panda said:


> stainless cladding is very unpleasant to work with when it comes to sharpening/thinning and for that sole reason i avoid it when ever possible.



yep...


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## labor of love (Oct 17, 2016)

panda said:


> stainless cladding is very unpleasant to work with when it comes to sharpening/thinning and for that sole reason i avoid it when ever possible.



Spoken like a true jknife hipster


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## panda (Oct 17, 2016)

Never hipster!! More like purist.


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## daveb (Oct 17, 2016)

Hipster.


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## Ruso (Oct 17, 2016)

From my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) many stainless clad knives are not claded "in house" due to being much more difficult to do. If 100% artisan appeals to you, perhaps you should avoid most of stainless clad.


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## AllanP (Oct 17, 2016)

I personally hate maintaining reactive iron clads, some are just really hard to calm down even with a patina. The patina comes off when you cut acidic food so you have to watch what you cut.

For home cooks especially I would go for stainless clad or full stainless, 

1. you don't prepare enough food to sharpen your knives enough to thin all the time, you are always just touching up the primary edge (this is especially true when we all have 5-1000 gyutos at one time)
2. You don't have enough ingredients imo to build a good patina compared to restaurant prep.

The only con I see with Stainless clad is selection, a lot of the higher end stuff comes with traditional iron clad and I don't know any single bevel knives that are stainless clad either.


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## foody518 (Oct 17, 2016)

Danzo said:


> Yeah I was under that assumption. Good to know the knives aren't really thicker. I'm looking to get another knife here soon. Was thinking to get some stainless clad but it seems it doesn't make a difference. I just thought it'd be nice to have something since I'm jumping back and fourth between prep and line during service.
> 
> Anything worth mentioning under the 200$ benchmark??



If you would be looking at the 210mm length then 3/4 of the ones I mentioned run between $160-180 :3 (Look at the Masakage Yuki from Knifewear for the cheaper price)
And so does the JCK Syogeki/Deep Impact

240mm - still most of them run under or at $200


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## JDA_NC (Oct 18, 2016)

I've fallen out of favor with stainless clad carbon knives. Plenty of great options out there - they just don't suit my tastes nowadays.

From a professional stand-point I think most mono-steel carbons are as worry-free as their stainless/stainless clad counterparts, especially once they've been 'broken in.'

But I also am a big believer that the best pro setup is a nice stainless/PM gyuto and an aggressive medium grit stone. Least upkeep and the longest lasting edges in my experience.


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## Steampunk (Oct 18, 2016)

As others have said, SS cladding is a plus in regards to reactivity, as the iron / low-carbon steel otherwise utilized isn't anywhere near as pure as the core steel. Not all carbon clads are too bad to deal with, but some can be... Strange tasting fruit, and rust gets old fast if you've got a knife with cantankerous cladding.

However, I do somewhat disagree that SS cladding is a nightmare to thin... It really depends what stones you are using, in my experience; some play much better with it than others. I'm comparing apples and oranges, as my SS clads have been pretty well ground whilst my carbon clads have been rather wonky, but - barring the refinement phase, which is more time consuming - I can't say I've had a bad experience thinning SS clads so far. 

It does take a different finish than carbon cladding, though. SS is still quite nice in terms of taking a kasumi, and in my opinion looks even more dramatic after patina sets in as you get a really crisp demarcation ine between the core and the clad, but it doesn't get quite as rich or classy a contrast. Some polished SS clads also show scratches more. 

For the most part, though, SS cladding is a win-win, for me. As many good options as there are, I wish that there were more really decent knives with this construction. 

- Steampunk


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 18, 2016)

Looking at the stone-clogging problem, I guess now Jon's dissing of stainless-clad kataba makes sense, given that you are not supposed sharpen them without thinning  

I bet some home cooks on this forum thin more than many pros...

@foody518 finally somebody who knows Goko rocks  So would I love to add an Itinomonn if I like that style, or would it feel redundant/minor upgrade?

....

Not a hipster, because I don't mind being considered one at all, and the hallmark of a hipster is of course saying "I'm not a hipster, damnit".


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## Danzo (Oct 18, 2016)

I've been looking at the yuki line for a while now. I need a wa handled work horse in my arsenal


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## foody518 (Oct 19, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Looking at the stone-clogging problem, I guess now Jon's dissing of stainless-clad kataba makes sense, given that you are not supposed sharpen them without thinning
> 
> I bet some home cooks on this forum thin more than many pros...
> 
> ...



I think the Itinomonn is a really great knife. Definitely one of my favorite buys. And I got it during a sale too :O
As far as comparison to the Goko it's a little bit skewed because i have the 270mm of one and the 240mm of the other. Extrapolating the profiles, I'd have to say that they're similar enough that if you like one you'll have no trouble with the other. Goko would be a taller knife if I was comparing same lengths though. As well as the Goko goes through dense foods, I feel the Itinomonn does it better. The Itinomonn is very thin behind the edge for longer than the Goko is. 
In general the one knock I have on the Goko is that that the walnut handled one is actually too tall and wide for my size Small hands to hold onto comfortably (if I was having to use it for a long period of time, that would be a problem)
https://goo.gl/photos/jZME91K2vG2NYyRJ6


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 19, 2016)

Nice polish on the edge, thinned&refinished? (on the Itinomonn)


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## foody518 (Oct 19, 2016)

No, just not enough usage in general and on patina building foods (carrots, sweet potatoes, mushrooms, watermelon, nappa, and bok choy don't tend to patinate excessively for me). Also, I buy too many things and end up using project knives for too long just so I can get more sharpening/polishing practice in haha
The visual is very much close to how it comes


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## Danzo (Oct 19, 2016)

Foody, I like all the knives you suggested. Can you give me a breakdown of each one? Pros/cons, opinions on them. 
I really like the way that ikazuchi looks. F&f look amazing.


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## foody518 (Oct 19, 2016)

@Danzo Oof, I'm going to have to get back to you on that one. Both from a my daily prep is usually not that long standpoint and I'd rather have the most recent impressions on them, and a I've been messing around with a totally different feeling knife the past few weeks (and another one before that) to try that out and continue developing my preferences and knowledge.


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## Danzo (Oct 20, 2016)

Are these K&S custom tanaka blue#2's any good? 
They got the Damascus and a KU ironclad for a good price too.


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## chinacats (Oct 20, 2016)

Danzo said:


> Are these K&S custom tanaka blue#2's any good?
> They got the Damascus and a KU ironclad for a good price too.



Tanaka blue 2 damascus is an awesome knife, but the iron (damascus) cladding is some of the most reactive I've ever seen on a knife. I loved mine but eventually sold it for that reason. I currently have a ku blue 2 which is much less reactive (in use)...it's not the same exact grind but similar. The knife will cut well out of the box but a good thinning will make it an incredible deal on a great cutter...the grinds are fairly easy to follow on Tanaka when thinning/sharpening. K&S is definitely the way to go, the handles are a serious upgrade (Tanaka ho with plastic handle are horrible) and James eases the spine, choil. In the case of mine, the damascus was probably a mm or 2 taller at the heel, but my ku is still 53mm.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 21, 2016)

Would the tadafusa even qualify as "cheap" or just as "great value for money"? Not a rhetorical question.


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## supersayan3 (Oct 21, 2016)

I think there are no absolute rules.... a stainless cladded knife might be both less or more flexible than a monosteel, depends on the knives, might be more beautiful to your eyes(silver blade with dark edge) or the opposite( you might like more, patina on the whole blade). As for reactivity, all depends on the quality of the steel(not all carbons are made from the same steel). 
Maintenance is the same, since in both cases you have to make the whole blade, or the exposed core dry.
When it comes to thinning, personally, I find it easier to thin a monosteel than a soft stainless cladding( as to why, I feel better respond on the monosteels and I manage to make better shinogi, but maybe that's just me)
A very fine, very cheap knife, to my opinion the most versatile knife out of all that I have is Masahiro Virgin Carbon metal bolster( I assume that everybody must be tired of myself suggesting this knife all the time), but it is just like white 2, at a much cheaper price, plus monosteel(with a tiny little flex-maybe you will not realize it)


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## Danzo (Oct 21, 2016)

Oh man I may pitch the stainless and go for the KU tanaka. Or maybe I'll buy both.


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## daveb (Oct 21, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Would the tadafusa even qualify as "cheap" or just as "great value for money"? Not a rhetorical question.



Can you live with "Good" value for money? It's a fairly established line sitting right in the middle of the price point that so many knives are trying to enter at. For the money it seems solid.


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## paulraphael (Nov 20, 2016)

I'll chime in and say I'm not a fan of cladding, for a few reasons. I don't believe there's really a maintenance advantage; the part where corrosion really matters is the cutting edge. I wipe my knives down right after cutting, but my slight preference for stainless (in a gyuto) is that I find acidic foods like onion and garlic have a noticeable effect on the carbon steels I've used. For slicing knives (for proteins) I slightly prefer carbon. The cladding makes no difference to edge corrosion, obviously. 

I've also found generally that my monosteel knives have a livelier feel than clad knives. They're more resonant, they transmit more feel of the food and the cutting board to my hands. I don't believe this makes any difference in the quality of my cutting, but it makes the job more enjoyable. Kind of like commuting to work in a sports car ... you won't actually get there any faster than traffic allows, but you'll have some more memorable sensations. Some people believe this is nonsense; other people don't care about it. It's just something to consider.

Regarding sharpening, clad western-style knives aren't equivalent to kasumi single bevels. You're only going to be sharpening the cladding when it comes time to thin the knife. Whether or not the cladding is an advantage here is debatable; it's softer, but some people find that the stainless clogs their stones. I have no experience here; I got rid of my clad gyutos before I had to thin them.

I would consider a clad knife (carbon or stainless) if there was one that kicked ass by every other standard, and there was no comparable monosteel knife. But it's definitely not something I see as an advantage, except often in cost.


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## Matus (Nov 21, 2016)

Welcome paulraphael 

I would only say - I did thinning of a 225 san-mai gyuto and 155 monosteel petit gyuto. It took me less time to do the work on the san-mai. The cladding made a huge difference. It is also easier to re-finish the a clad-blade as it is easier to take out scratches from the soft cladding than from the hardened steel. Now how different knives feel in use depends on many factors and whether the knife is monosteel or san-mai is only one of them. And while most of us tend to prefer clad-knives it is absolutely fine if you feel otherwise.

Have fun around here


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