# New 240 Gyuto: Wat, Yoshikane or TF



## Hoppy (Jul 27, 2021)

I’m filling a gap in my current set and looking at a 240 Gyuto.

rest of my knives are Takedas with a Masaki petty which I like the knife but dislike the reactivity.

I’ve narrowed it down to:

TF Denka
Wat 240
TF Maboroshi
Yoshi SKD tsuchime

I’ve read a few articles around the Yoshikane and the the Wat and Denka seem to be highly regarded here too.

can anyone add anything that might help swing my decision?

thanks


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## tcmx3 (Jul 27, 2021)

Wat, but buy a Toyama branded knife instead IMO.

every TF knife Ive touched has needed a lot of work. in fact if you look in the sharpening section *here* you can see a 210 mab that is still a WIP after hours of working on it. that said, if shipping from Sugi isnt that bad and youre willing to pay a premium, they have TFs that are genuinely corrected. plus for me shirogami 1 > aogami super any day of the week. non super blue ok toss up.

Yoshikane has a lot of fans and it's well priced in comparison. for me, too light, too flat a profile, too short at the heel.

which leaves, of the knives on your list, the Wat, but with some of what Ive seen of Shinichi's responses lately, Id just get a Toyama and deal with say, Maxim. that's a knife I can unequivocally recommend.

btw now appears to be a good time to buy a stainless clad Togashi with the Hitohira branding. Ive seen a bunch around with nice handles in the same price range. a solid alternative.


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## Alder26 (Jul 27, 2021)

I would vote for the Watanabe stainless clad gyuto. His blue steel is my favorite I have encountered as well as his grind. They cut beautifully and have fantastic food release. They also feel great in hand.

All of the the above knives are excellent though.

TF will likely come with some fit and finish issues that are not what you’d like to see on a knife that expensive. The steel is literally at the top of the heap though. truly remarkable.

The Yoshikane will have superb fit and finish and fantastic steel, however theprofile of the edge can often be polarizing for people’s preferences. So if you pursue that option I would highly recommend trying to hold one in person. If you like the profile, you will not be disappointed. Great steel and some of the cleanest factory grinds I have ever seen


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## Jovidah (Jul 28, 2021)

Haven't got my Yoshi long, but a few things that came to mind that may or may not be to your liking (or set it apart):

-Profile has a lot of flat spot, but not much height
-Grind leans towards thin and light... really smooth and light cut, but not a lot of heft or food release
-Good F&F, and from what I've seen they look very consistent from blade to blade
-The SKD is semi stainless, but on the lower end of the stainless scale; it will take a patina


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## Nemo (Jul 28, 2021)

It's hard to make a recommendation when we don't know what you are after.

You may wish to fill in the questionnaire (sticky at the top of the Kitchen Knife forum. Cut and paste into this thread and answer it.).


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 28, 2021)

If you like it thin behind the edge TF Denka (AS) all day everyday. TF AS is easy to sharpen, retains that sharpness beyond what you'll see with W#1, and super stable even when ground stupid thin.


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## tostadas (Jul 28, 2021)

Really depends on what you're after. Each one of the knives you listed are quite different from one another. Out of the 4, I've tried the TF Maboroshi and the Yoshikane SKD. I really wanted to like the Yoshikane, but the low flat profile was not something I could get along with. I absolutely love TF knives, and currently have 4 of them. The fit and finish doesnt bother me at all, but I also generally do some fit and finish adjustments of my own to smooth things out regardless (even on my Yoshikanes).

If you were to ask me which I would want in 240, I'd say TF, hands down. I'm quite biased but they're still my favorites.


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## Qapla' (Jul 28, 2021)

Hoppy said:


> I’m filling a gap in my current set and looking at a 240 Gyuto...


Can you tell us just what the nature of that gap is?



Hoppy said:


> can anyone add anything that might help swing my decision?
> 
> thanks


Nah, I'll just confuse you even further: As your location is "Sydney, NSW Australia", have you also considered any Aussie-made knives?


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## Bigbbaillie (Jul 28, 2021)

Personally I would probably go for a Wat, 240mm TF's are definitely overpriced (regardless of how cool they are) and Yoshi's are just too flat and short for me. Although I definitely want another Yoshi and TF at some point. Really it's just going to be about what you want from your knife and how you would like to use it. Between these options you really can't go wrong.


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## McMan (Jul 28, 2021)

tostadas said:


> Really depends on what you're after. Each one of the knives you listed are quite different from one another.





Bigbbaillie said:


> Between these options you really can't go wrong.


True and true...
I've tried Wat, Mab, and Yoshi. These are three very different knives. Never tried a Denka (and probably never will). Wat = tall + convex, Mab = avg height + thin grind, Yoshi = short + thin grind (but not as thin as a good Mab)
My preference is the Yoshi. I like the flat spot and, lately, have actually been liking shorter knives.
If this was a year or two ago, my preference would have been the Wat. At that point, I liked taller knives, and the Wat has a nice convex. All this to say, in a few months--or at least by next year--my preferences will change.  
So, I'll just echo:


Qapla' said:


> Can you tell us just what the nature of that gap is?


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## M1k3 (Jul 28, 2021)

Yes.

Then sell what doesn't float your boat.


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## timebard (Jul 28, 2021)

I have Yoshi and Toyama (so Wat, more or less) out of those. Other posts here sum up the differences pretty well, but I'll add that the tips of the two are very different--the Yoshi has a lot of taper and has a very thin, pointed tip that handles stuff like horizontal onion swipes and garlic beautifully. The Toyama tip is thicker and a little more bull-nosed so while it's got more forward balance and a hefty feel in hand, it'll need more oomph for those tasks.

Both great knives for sure. If I needed to bulk prep a ton of product I'd reach for the Toyama, for a smaller job with more fine work I'd take the Yoshi. For home cooking, the latter situation is a lot more of my daily cooking, so Yoshi gets more time on the board for me personally.


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## tostadas (Jul 28, 2021)

Also I'd note that there is decent secondary market demand for all of these. So if you pick one (or 4) to buy and end up not liking it, you should be able to find a willing buyer relatively easily.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 28, 2021)

Hoppy said:


> I’m filling a gap in my current set and looking at a 240 Gyuto.
> 
> rest of my knives are Takedas with a Masaki petty which I like the knife but dislike the reactivity.
> 
> ...


Of those choices? TF Denka—best of the bunch IMO! I have a 240 denka, 2 Watanabe iron clad blue gyutos, and a Yoshikane skd tsuchime petty, all wonderful knives—but hands down, 24/7 it would be TF Denka for me. Great steel, profile, grind, loads of character, and a good dose of wabi-sabi to boot. The Wat and Yoshi are fine, but for me a little plain Jane. If going for a TF, why get a mab when you can go denka? Also, denkas are one of the most popular and polarizing kkf thread topics! Good luck in your quest.
Also, think there’s a reason why you listed TF Denka first on your list, …can’t stop thinking of denka huh?


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## Hoppy (Jul 28, 2021)

Thanks for all your comments. It’s been really helpful.

I’m starting to think that maybe I’m going to live by the N+1 rule and need two knives at this size to fill my needs. Im guessing this is a common theme on here 

Definitely leaning towards the Denka and Toyama.

I do love the appearance of the Yoshikane SKD too and am still in an early phase of my knife journey. Hence very keen to try some more of the steels and maker‘s influence.


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## wombat (Jul 28, 2021)

I have two on your list and have had something very close to one of the others. I will probably end up trying them all eventually, you might too.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 28, 2021)

Hoppy said:


> Thanks for all your comments. It’s been really helpful.
> 
> I’m starting to think that maybe I’m going to live by the N+1 rule and need two knives at this size to fill my needs. Im guessing this is a common theme on here
> 
> ...


I’ve never heard of the ‘N+1 rule.’ The term ‘need’ is a perpetually moving thing, prone to redefining. Just get something you really want.


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## WaTFTanaki (Jul 28, 2021)

Kind of depends on what you want to do. These are all radically different. If you looking for a universal gyuto then probably the Wat. I have a Denka and the edge retention and ease of sharpening are insane. But it’s a beast of a knife, so I alternate it with it’s antithesis, a much thinner Takada suiboku white 2 by Y Tanaka for variety, depending on the task and my mood. The takada is not dissimilar from the Yoshikane. I love my Wat but am not using it now because the Denka & Takada Suiboku form kind of perfect combo for me, because the Wat kind of sits in between the two knives. If I had to toad trip ans take only one knife it would be the Wat.


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## lemeneid (Jul 28, 2021)

Out of the choices, TF Denka all the time.

It has the best heat treatment of the lot. Not to mention the best cutting ability and edge retention. The knife just cuts differently from the rest. 

As for Wat, I’ll rather you get a Toyama, if the reports are true, then Wat doesn’t give a crap about customers any longer. Just grab a Toyama from JNS.

Never tried a Yoshi.


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## daniel_il (Jul 28, 2021)

note that the yoshi nashiji is thinner and nicer than the hammered version, its almost identical to kono YS.

steel is great on the stones and almost a stainless, i find this knife to be super thin behind the edge, thinner than my HD2.

its one of my favorites because its super flat, you should be aware of this. if it's suits your style you will like it, if it's doest you will suffer 

you can also look at new kono YW, look like the same knife in a white steel.


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## Hoppy (Jul 28, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> Out of the choices, TF Denka all the time.
> 
> It has the best heat treatment of the lot. Not to mention the best cutting ability and edge retention. The knife just cuts differently from the rest.
> 
> ...



thanks. I’ve read many of your posts praising the Denka!

Can I ask what reports you’ve heard about Wat and his service? I was only on Wats website last night browsing lovingly.


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## ljknb9264 (Jul 28, 2021)

Yoshi SKD tsuchime and TF denka or mab are great knives, but they have less personality than Wat 240.

These three cut really well but due to its profile, self-weight and balance, they are definately not a workhorse.

Wat or toyama are really solid tools that you can use it for big batch of cutting.

Personal recommendation, get a toyama (stainless-clad is good, dammy version is even better) or wat. Meanwhile, you can check whoever is selling Yoshi dammy sld or SKD in KKF.

When it reaches to the point that you feel the edge retention of your knives is not good enough, then you can try TF denka. Pretty pricey. Edge retention is slightly better than toyama.


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## Bigbbaillie (Jul 28, 2021)

Honestly considering you don't seem to know what you want, Denka seems like a bad decision IMO. For the price of the 240, you could try Wat and Yoshi and still have some cash leftover.


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## lemeneid (Jul 28, 2021)

Hoppy said:


> thanks. I’ve read many of your posts praising the Denka!
> 
> Can I ask what reports you’ve heard about Wat and his service? I was only on Wats website last night browsing lovingly.








Watanabe - where to buy?


Tried a few Toyamas and would like to try a Wat 240 for comparison. Is there any downside to ordering from the MTC store over direct or anywhere else?




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Take a read of this thread. Might not be indicative of Wat in general, but I rather buy a Toyama now from JNS, they’re made by the same guy anyway.


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## vxd (Jul 28, 2021)

TF Denka for sure.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 28, 2021)

Really all good knives, much depends on your tastes in knives—price point, weight, profile, aesthetics, etc. Regarding weight, my experience considers them as Wat (heavy, my 240 is 276g), Denka (mid weight), Yoshi (light).

So, obviously I'm biased towards denka.

Denka is a very versatile gyuto, one of my best cutters, perfect weight for me, one of my keepers. Much has been said on KKF about denkas having wonky f&f and being terribly overpriced. Everyone I know personally, that owns a denka, didn't find major issues with their knife, f&f is generally good from what I've heard, no more than a lot of other handmade knife brands—even some of the slick looking Sakai knives from famous makers can reveal issues. 

Are denkas overpriced? Absolutely not! Denkas cost what they cost, I get annoyed when people do price comparisons citing cheaper knives as better value. Sure, I can get 2 Mazakis and a ginga petty for the price of a denka—but if denka gets the heart racing, that's what's needed. Denkas are worth every penny to me. 

All this said—Wat, TF denka, Yoshi skd nash, are all good knives. Your move!


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## daveb (Jul 28, 2021)

Those are three very different knives with at least five different configurations avail.

The iron clad Wat is a classic and like no other. Love mine. The stainless clad is a very nice knife but at the end of the day it's just another very nice knife. I could not find the magic.

I've found the Yoshi tsuchime (Epic Edge version - only data point) to be kind of clunky. The SKD Amekiri from James is one of the great knives in my kit. (As is the white and the Kashima from Cleancut)

TFs are TFs. While lauded by some, most agree that they are project knives, albeit expensive project knives. Tried one - OK but not great.
WTFWtfWTF

And Gengetsu is noticeably absent from your list.

+


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## tcmx3 (Jul 28, 2021)

DitmasPork said:


> Are denkas overpriced? Absolutely not! Denkas cost what they cost, I get annoyed when people do price comparisons citing cheaper knives as better value. Sure, I can get 2 Mazakis and a ginga petty for the price of a denka—but if denka gets the heart racing, that's what's needed. Denkas are worth every penny to me.



this is a mischaracterization IMO.

it's not _Denkas are better but cost a lot more so it's diminishing returns _

Mazakis are straight up better lol. So are a lot of other knives.Again any number of Togashi knives have better HT, better grinds, better F&F. ok maybe you want a Denka anyway fine but I find the premise that the Denka is this ultra high performance knife that is so much better than these other knives straight up laughable. maybe, MAYBE as as fun object it equals out in practice. but it definitely doesnt beat.

if I thought Denka was even in the same league as say, a Shihan, a high end Togashi/Tanaka from the right sharpener, etc I wouldnt care about the price at all.


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## cawilson6072 (Jul 28, 2021)

I'm not discounting the experience of the other Watanabe thread, but I did want to add my experience as (a) it was really positive communication with Shinichi and (b) the Toyama are OOS at JNS. I just recently purchased a 120mm lefty ajikiri from Shinichi (about three weeks ago). I contacted him on a Friday, he responded on Saturday, we had the deal struck on Sunday, and I had my knife in hand (in Virginia) on the following Friday. Even typing that it is hard to believe the timeline. 

Beyond that, I upgraded the handle (the plastic ferule with a ridge has always been a "rub" for me...see what I did there?). Shinichi provided a Watanabe branded Tenugui as a gift (new customer, maybe?) and I still have not gotten my kids to get recycle the last of the Japanese newsprint that served as padding in the box. 

The knife: I've rounded the choil and spine with a file and 420 grit sandpaper, but otherwise I see no reason to work on it out of the box. It is hair-shaving sharp and has no obvious flaws. I have dissected some speckled trout (small 1.5 lb fish) and rockfish (medium 2.5 lb fish) and the knife is exactly what I hoped it would be when I purchased it. The experience was just flat-out good and I am a happy customer direct from Shinichi. Maybe I got lucky. The thread that lemeneid shared is concerning, but I expereinced none of that personally. 

I say this because for the reasons described above, I would lean stainless clad Wat as well. I buy the reasoning made in the very first response by tcmx3.


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## AT5760 (Jul 28, 2021)

Whatever you decide to buy of these 4, if you don't like it, you'll likely find a willing buyer on BST pretty quickly.


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## ljknb9264 (Jul 28, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> Whatever you decide to buy of these 4, if you don't like it, you'll likely find a willing buyer on BST pretty quickly.


That's a fair point. Then it would be the best to find out which one lost less after the second deal.


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## FishmanDE (Jul 28, 2021)

Don’t forget MTC still has stainless Wats in stock


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## DitmasPork (Jul 28, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> this is a mischaracterization IMO.
> 
> it's not _Denkas are better but cost a lot more so it's diminishing returns _
> 
> ...



Respectfully, if you’d read my previous posts, I stated that comments were my opinion.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Mazs, have three of them—but if my apartment were on fire, and needed to rescue either my Maz, ShiHan, Y Tanaka or denka, I’d certainly grab the denka. For me, denka has all I need/want in an all a round gyuto.

Regarding denka’s cost and ‘laws of diminishing returns’—I think I’d ignore that concept about a decade ago. My interests and collection of J-knives doesn’t use ‘good value,’ or ‘bang-for-buck’ as parameters. Anyone sniffing around a denka knows this. True, Togashi is cheaper, well regarded—but it ain’t a denka. Sure, buying a denka put a dentin my wallet—but knives aren’t an egalitarian entitlement. Sadly, some cooks priced out of buying denkas—for them there’re lots of other knives.

TF denka, best of the three choices by a long shot—just my opinion. It’s a knife I’ve responded to exceptionally well.


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## ljknb9264 (Jul 28, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> this is a mischaracterization IMO.
> 
> it's not _Denkas are better but cost a lot more so it's diminishing returns _
> 
> ...


210 Denka might be okay. It is a bit pricey. But if it always comes with high quality grinding (better quality control), I will take it as fair price.

240 is too much. It is definately overpriced. But if someone like denka very much, he will go for it anyway. But I do not think it is a good idea to recommend it to anyone who has not try denka before.

270 is not that expensive compared to 240. lol...

I can only say, Teruyasu Fujiwara has a very nice business mode.


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## FishmanDE (Jul 28, 2021)

Oh, and I own a TF Mab (Sugi) and a Wat and numerous others. I’ve used a very well cared for Denka, and personally Idt TF is all that. For the price, I’d go for a Wat. Personally. All that said, don’t sleep on the shiro kamo from KnS house brand. $250, nice height and profile, SG2. I’ve been very, VERY happy with that purchase


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## tcmx3 (Jul 28, 2021)

DitmasPork said:


> Respectfully, if you’d read my previous posts, I stated that comments were my opinion.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I love Mazs, have three of them—but if my apartment were on fire, and needed to rescue either my Maz, ShiHan, Y Tanaka or denka, I’d certainly grab the denka. For me, denka has all I need/want in an all a round gyuto.
> 
> ...



here's the thing.

I am actually reading what you're writing. and whether you mean to or not, you continue to position this as if TF knives are better and by characterizing over and over again how all these other knives that are less expensive are "bang for buck" you try to change the argument away from something that is just factually true: most of the competitors to TF are IMMENSELY better knives objectively. whether this makes them better knives overall as a subjective experience for the end user isnt the point, you're giving advice to someone else who wants to spend their money a disservice. 

also, if you dont mind me asking and since you already take a lot of pictures, would you mind showing us the current state of the blade roads of your current TF user?


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## DitmasPork (Jul 28, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> here's the thing.
> 
> I am actually reading what you're writing. and whether you mean to or not, you continue to position this as if TF knives are better and by characterizing over and over again how all these other knives that are less expensive are "bang for buck" you try to change the argument away from something that is just factually true: most of the competitors to TF are IMMENSELY better knives objectively. whether this makes them better knives overall as a subjective experience for the end user isnt the point, you're giving advice to someone else who wants to spend their money a disservice.
> 
> also, if you dont mind me asking and since you already take a lot of pictures, would you mind showing us the current state of the blade roads of your current TF user?



Of the three choices, the TF denka is a better knife—simply because it’s the knife I enjoy using the most, for me a better cutter and better steel—others may come to different conclusion, which is fine. ‘Better,’ ‘best’ is purely subjective, based on my tastes. My preference leans denka.

For me to say TF denka is the best of the bunch is not saying Wat and Yoshi aren’t good. We all have our faves. More objectively/subjectively—Wat is too heavy; Yoshi too light, profile too flat for me.

I think whatever the OP ends up buying from the shortlist is a solid choice. I make no judgements on whether someone spends $200 or 1k on a gyuto—I treat everyone as if they are knowledgeable and know what they’re getting into, don’t even question what they should spend unless they state price points. The higher price of TF denka does offer more bling value—in addition to it being a wonderful knife.

Ultimately, they’re just knives, just tools. Gotta jump in somewhere—shallow or deep end.


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## Barmoley (Jul 28, 2021)

@Hoppy as you can tell the knives you narrowed down to are very different and ideally you should try all of them at some point to pick what works for you. If you plan on doing that then just start somewhere no amount of reading will tell you which knife works best for you. If you just want to buy one out of the ones you mentioned and go on with your life then Watanabe/Toyama is probably the best since it is a very good, middle of the road knife. The current stainless clad ones lost something to me and I prefer older, heavier iron clad ones, but stainless cladding is more practical and the knife is less polarizing now that it is positioned smack in the middle of the knife range.

Which knife to buy Questioner exists for a reason, without knowing your experience, budget, etc it is very difficult to recommend anything. People are just recommending what they like, but even that is not constant as preferences change over time and with experience with more knives.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 28, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> @Hoppy as you can tell the knives you narrowed down to are very different and ideally you should try all of them at some point to pick what works for you. If you plan on doing that then just start somewhere no amount of reading will tell you which knife works best for you. If you just want to buy one out of the ones you mentioned and go on with your life then Watanabe/Toyama is probably the best since it is a very good, middle of the road knife. The current stainless clad ones lost something to me and I prefer older, heavier iron clad ones, but stainless cladding is more practical and the knife is less polarizing now that it is positioned smack in the middle of the knife range.
> 
> Which knife to buy Questioner exists for a reason, without knowing your experience, budget, etc it is very difficult to recommend anything. People are just recommending what they like, but even that is not constant as preferences change over time and with experience with more knives.



Sensible advice! BTW, what do the newer 240 Wats weigh? My iron clad 240 that I bought direct, in 2014 weighs 276g.

To the point of your first sentence. Trying/buying/using different makers definitely helps in defining knife tastes, preferences. TBH, it took me about 8 years—and many knives—to find my grove, and articulate what I want in J-knives.


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## Barmoley (Jul 28, 2021)

DitmasPork said:


> Sensible advice! BTW, what do the newer 240 Wats weigh? My iron clad 240 that I bought direct, in 2014 weighs 276g.
> 
> To the point of your first sentence. Trying/buying/using different makers definitely helps in defining knife tastes, preferences. TBH, it took me about 8 years—and many knives—to find my grove, and articulate what I want in J-knives.


214-230g in my experience, most seem to be in 220s. The first *210 *iron clad Toyama I bought around 2015 was around 230g, that knife impressed me so much that for a while I thought nothing except a 240 mm of the same could be better.

Took me a very long time to figure out what I like too and as soon as I did it seemed to change. To me it is a moving target. I have some knives that I figured were perfect for me that I haven't used for a while due to not having any impulse control and buying more knives and when I go back to some of them they are not perfect for me anymore. Also knives that I disliked in the past now seem to fit me well and so it goes.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 28, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> 214-230g in my experience, most seem to be in 220s. The first *210 *iron clad Toyama I bought around 2015 was around 230g, that knife impressed me so much that for a while I thought nothing except a 240 mm of the same could be better.
> 
> Took me a very long time to figure out what I like too and as soon as I did it seemed to change. To me it is a moving target. I have some knives that I figured were perfect for me that I haven't used for a while due to not having any impulse control and buying more knives and when I go back to some of them they are not perfect for me anymore. Also knives that I disliked in the past now seem to fit me well and so it goes.



Moving target is too right!

If I were to generalize my gyuto comfort zone, it would be: Sanjo or French; rustic; one maker workshop; kurouchi; 225mm blade length x 52mm; carbon core, iron clad; midweight.

But life would be boring without variety.

However, now I'm digging stainless, recently got my first 240 ginsan! It's a Sakai, slick and shiny.


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## ModRQC (Jul 28, 2021)

OOTB Wat/Toyama is by far the best of the lot. If a knife is never truly yours without some work however, TF fills the spot brightly.

To me, although Yoshi are such wonderful cutters, they're still my least favorite option in your choice.

And BTW S. Tanaka 240mm Blue is probably the strongest bang for bucks contender.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 28, 2021)

Buy a denka!


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## Jason183 (Jul 28, 2021)

If I’m you, just buy all three of them since you’ve already narrowed it down to 3 choices.

Everyone have different cutting techniques and depends on what you cut every day.

So Just try them yourself and keep the ones that suits you the most, sell the other two in B/S/T.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 28, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> If you like it thin behind the edge TF Denka (AS) all day everyday. TF AS is easy to sharpen, retains that sharpness beyond what you'll see with W#1, and super stable even when ground stupid thin.


It's all true only after quite some work on stones to make it thin BTE in the first place, so I'm a bit hesitant to recommend TF to inexperienced sharpener. I do love the TF AS steel though.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> It's all true only after quite some work on stones to make it thin BTE in the first place, so I'm a bit hesitant to recommend TF to inexperienced sharpener. I do love the TF AS steel though.



precisely this. and even then, it's not exactly an easy knife to thin given they often dont come that great. compared to some other knives which are a bit thick ootb to my taste, e.g. Hinoura, I think the latter is WAY easier to get where you want it.

this is why I suggested, if one really wants a TF, save the money you'd spend getting Aogami Super which to me personally is a sidegrade at best and get one of the shirogami 1 knives that Forty has sorted out for Sugi. then you get the ultra high hardness steel but none of the problems, and it will be way easier to maintain over time.

Im going to be 100% honest; if someone shows me their user TF and it still has the stock finish Id be kind of suspicious about their take on the knife. Ive now worked on more than one and it's a hard knife to get into shape. the 210 mab I linked earlier was a complete mess and the only knife Ive ever gotten that was in worse shape ootb was a Murata funayuki which cost me less than 100 dollars. sure it's good now but it's not even the same knife as the one I bought anymore.

compared to a Toyama that's almost certainly good to go day 1, it's not even a contest for me. now if you want to pay up for a TF that's already fixed then Im not gonna say that's not a good knife but it's definitely not the same knife you get if you just stroll on down to EE and click add to cart.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> It's all true only after quite some work on stones to make it thin BTE in the first place, so I'm a bit hesitant to recommend TF to inexperienced sharpener. I do love the TF AS steel though.


Not all TF blades have chonky grinds. If they are thicker behind the edge ask TF to thin the blade.

I disagree...AS is not a 'side grade' at all. I have TF W#1 and AS and the steels are very different.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 28, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I disagree...AS is not a 'side grade' at all. I have TF W#1 and AS and the steels are very different.



I mean I really dont mean to imply AS isnt great stuff. But White 1 is really incredible stuff in general IMO, and if I could get any knife in any steel, Id choose White 1 pretty much every time.

such that I dont think AS is better. different, sure, better? not IMO and IME anyway.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 28, 2021)

I have or had multiples of 3 choices and I'd recommend Yoshi SKD plus Wat/Toyama Stainless clad blue 2. Yes buy them both since you have the budget for a 240 denka, and sell the one you don't like.

Yoshi is a lighter mid-weight and cuts like a laser. It's more laserish than most typical lasers (Sakai monosteel ones I mean) and it cuts better than most knives out there OOTB regardless of the price range. The Epic Edge Yoshi black dammy SLD is a tiny bit taller and beefier which is my current keeper. The only thing I don't like about Yoshi is the super flat profile, which is less a problem on Hasegawa soft rubber board IME as the surface texture and softness is forgiving.

Wat/Toyama is a heavier mid-weight or workhorse which also cuts everything very very well OOTB. Less laserish than Yoshi but still better than most. I like Kato grind better (for tip area and machi) in this category but Wat is very close. Wat/Toyama blue 2 steel is one of my favorites. The edge could be keen, toothy and stable, and the retention is also good. IME better retention than Y. Tanaka blue 1/2 steels. IME better stability than Kato WH (both new and old stocks). IME better keenness and retention than Kaeru honyaki blue steel. The only other carbon steel matches the experience is TF AS which is actually a little more stable IME. A Watoyama with a wider tang and machi plus a thinner tip will be a perfect knife IMO.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 28, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not all TF blades have chonky grinds. If they are thicker behind the edge ask TF to thin the blade.


Not a single TF blade OOTB I've handled or seen online has zero edge. And the thickness right above the edge could be anywhere between 0.1 mm to 0.4 mm.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 28, 2021)

TBH I like the TF AS steel better than the White 1. After thinning them to zero edge, TF white 1 starts to be really chippy. I had to thicken it to 0.1mm thickness to stabilize it. The AS on the contrary, could take the thinnest grind and edge without chipping. The edge retention was good on both although the AS was truly remarkable.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I have or had multiples of 3 choices and I'd recommend Yoshi SKD plus Wat/Toyama Stainless clad blue 2. Yes buy them both since you have the budget for a 240 denka, and sell the one you don't like.
> 
> Yoshi is a lighter mid-weight and cuts like a laser. It's more laserish than most typical lasers (Sakai monosteel ones I mean) and it cuts better than most knives all there OOTB regardless of the price range. The Epic Edge Yoshi black dammy SLD is a tiny bit taller and beefier which is my current keeper. The only thing I don't like about Yoshi is the super flat profile, which is less a problem on Hasegawa soft rubber board IME as the surface texture and softness is forgiving.
> 
> Wat/Toyama is a heavier mid-weight or workhorse which also cuts everything very very well OOTB. Less laserish than Yoshi but still better than most. I like Kato grind better (for tip area and machi) in this category but Wat is very close. Wat/Toyama blue 2 steel is one of my favorites. A Watoyama with wider tang and Machi plus a thinner tip will be a perfect knife IMO.



if one likes the profile and height of a Toyama, but wishes for a thinner BTE experience, there's always Masahi. 

I got one of his knives in stainless clad Blue #1 secondhand off the BST that's from Yoshiro Cutlery. It's a very similar pattern but considerably thinner than my stainless clad Toyoma. good f&f and grind too. I tend to prefer some chonk myself but it's worth a look for someone into that sort of thing.

and I will once again shill for a stainless clad Togashi. Hitohira is pumping them out ATM and you have your choice of sharpeners and subsequently grinds; wide bevels, full convexes, etc.


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## superworrier (Jul 28, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> Don’t forget MTC still has stainless Wats in stock


Actually they've been OOS for a bit online.


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## tostadas (Jul 28, 2021)

If you get a TF, make it a western handle one! It has really nice forward balance compared to most western handled knives


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## ian (Jul 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> It's all true only after quite some work on stones to make it thin BTE in the first place,



I also recommend the Denka, because it is the thinnest behind the edge after you make it the thinnest behind the edge.

Anyway, not much to add at this point. Think the OP has all the relevant info.


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## ModRQC (Jul 28, 2021)

ian said:


> I also recommend the Denka, because it is the thinnest behind the edge after you make it the thinnest behind the edge.
> 
> Anyway, not much to add at this point. Think the OP has all the relevant info.



IDK...  

Was it at least mentioned somewhere that TFs need work to shine?


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## DitmasPork (Jul 28, 2021)

tostadas said:


> If you get a TF, make it a western handle one! It has really nice forward balance compared to most western handled knives


Yeah, the finger notch works better, makes more design sense with the western handle. I’m a wa guy, but western all the way with denka for me.


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## Barmoley (Jul 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Not a single TF blade OOTB I've handled or seen online has zero edge. And the thickness right above the edge could be anywhere between 0.1 mm to 0.4 mm.


Is zero edge a requirement for the knife to be good? TF AS is better in my experience and my use than TF white 1. Stays sharper longer and is more stable. I don't look for zero edge though as I haven't found a truly stable zero edge yet on any knife in any steel. Some are more stable than others, but for my use none last long enough for me to want zero edge. Interestingly enough a few stainless clad Wats I've seen in the last 2 or so years were too thin and chippy out of the box and even though they cut great needed to be re-sharpened to a bit thicker edge to be stable. Very good knives nonetheless.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 28, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Is zero edge a requirement for the knife to be good? TF AS is better in my experience and my use than TF white 1. Stays sharper longer and is more stable. I don't look for zero edge though as I haven't found a truly stable zero edge yet on any knife in any steel. Some are more stable than others, but for my use none last long enough for me to want zero edge. Interestingly enough a few stainless clad Wats I've seen in the last 2 or so years were too thin and chippy out of the box and even though they cut great needed to be rehappened to a bit thicker edge to be stable. Very good knives nonetheless.


It really depends on what you cut and what you cut them on. When I use my TBS end grain maple board and cherry board, every knife chips when I ground them to zero edge. However, after I switched to Hasegawa soft rubber, many of them can stay stable with zero edge (in my definition ~0.05 mm thinness above the edge or maybe slightly thinner, not really 0.01 thin). Watoyama blue 2 and TF AS as 2 good examples.


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## Barmoley (Jul 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> It really depends on what you cut and what you cut them on. When I use my TBS end grain maple board and cherry board, every knife chips when I ground them to zero edge. However, after I switched to Hasegawa soft rubber, many of them can stay stable with zero edge (in my definition ~0.05 mm thinness above the edge or maybe slightly thinner, not really 0.01 thin). Watoyama blue 2 and TF AS as 2 good examples.


Good to know, I haven't tried since switching from end grain maple to hinoki and brown hasegawa. I am sure I would have a better experience on these softer boards, I just don't want to be that careful with my knives. It is enough that I am already very careful with them by using appropriate boards, washing right away, using good stones and cutting appropriate stuff in appropriate ways. I don't need to be even more careful for dubious cutting improvement  At some point these tools become unusable to me if babying them interferes with my use. No zero edges for me, no need the knives cut great in my use without


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 28, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Good to know, I haven't tried since switching from end grain maple to hinoki and brown hasegawa. I am sure I would have a better experience on these softer boards, I just don't want to be that careful with my knives. It is enough that I am already very careful with them by using appropriate boards, washing right away, using good stones and cutting appropriate stuff in appropriate ways. I don't need to be even more careful for dubious cutting improvement  At some point these tools become unusable to me if babying them interferes with my use. No zero edges for me, no need the knives cut great in my use without


I like zero edge because not only it cuts better but it's also easier to maintain. The edge could be refreshed in seconds. Even if not <0.05 mm thick right above the edge, at least 0.1 mm or even 0.15 mm. Some TFs (my denka for example) were 0.25mm or even 0.4 mm right above the edge which is too thick to cut really well. Some factory made knives are better than that.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 28, 2021)

ian said:


> I also recommend the Denka, because it is the thinnest behind the edge after you make it the thinnest behind the edge.
> 
> Anyway, not much to add at this point. Think the OP has all the relevant info.


My reason for recommending the denka is the price. It’s very expensive!


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 28, 2021)

Carl Kotte said:


> My reason for recommending the denka is the price. It’s very expensive!


Ahh, as taught at the Mazaki school of marketing.


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## FishmanDE (Jul 28, 2021)

superworrier said:


> Actually they've been OOS for a bit online.



Touché


----------



## superworrier (Jul 28, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> Touché


I guess for anyone curious as well, the stainless clad ones will never be restocked at MTC again, according to someone who asked.


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## lemeneid (Jul 28, 2021)

I think I’ve perfectly documented my TFs from day one. Here’s a Morihei Fine Finish and a Denka when they were BNIB. Super thin zero edged. One great thing IMO with TF western handles is they all come with the grind of a laser, but with the weight and feel of a workhorse, something you don’t get with the Wat or Yoshi.

And in my opinion, even a stock Denka wins a tuned up Maboroshi any day. More authoritative feel, sharpness and a real joy to sharpen, not that the Maboroshi is bad though, but if budget permits, get a Denka.

I’ve also got a Denka petty as a fatty, but I’m not going to shame it here, but it’s pretty much my favorite knife to use now.


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## FishmanDE (Jul 28, 2021)

superworrier said:


> I guess for anyone curious as well, the stainless clad ones will never be restocked at MTC again, according to someone who asked.



Hey man, that’s what they told me in store. Now the website is saying “temporarily oos” so I clearly have no idea what’s going on


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 28, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> I think I’ve perfectly documented my TFs from day one. Here’s a Morihei Fine Finish and a Denka when they were BNIB. Super thin zero edged. One great thing IMO with TF western handles is they all come with the grind of a laser, but with the weight and feel of a workhorse, something you don’t get with the Wat or Yoshi.
> 
> And in my opinion, even a stock Denka wins a tuned up Maboroshi any day. More authoritative feel, sharpness and a real joy to sharpen, not that the Maboroshi is bad though, but if budget permits, get a Denka.
> 
> ...


The morihei looks closer to zero edge but it's not finished by TF. Somehow the denka edge looks folded toward right side so I don't know. If the folded part is edge then it's too much edge to be claimed zero edge IMO. Do you happen to have the photo of that denka's edge road OOTB?


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## lemeneid (Jul 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> The morihei looks closer to zero edge but it's not finished by TF. Somehow the denka edge looks folded toward right side so I don't know. If the folded part is edge then it's too much edge to be claimed zero edge IMO. Do you happen to have the photo of that denka's edge road OOTB?


You got it the opposite, the Denka is the red handle one and the Morihei is the black handle. Both are slight lefty biased too that’s why.

This is my Denka’s blade road OOTB


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 28, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> You got it the opposite, the Denka is the red handle one and the Morihei is the black handle. Both are slight lefty biased too that’s why.
> 
> This is my Denka’s blade road OOTB
> View attachment 135771


I did mean the black handle one by morihei. For the red handle one, this shows what I meant, but after seeing your new picture I think yours is indeed very good. Very even and thin edge. No wonder you like it that much...


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## tcmx3 (Jul 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I did mean the black handle one by morihei. For the red handle one, this shows what I meant, but after seeing this picture I think yours indeed very good. Very even and thin edge. No wonder you like it that much...
> 
> View attachment 135772



really thin grinds, camera lenses that cant do super flat fields at close range (which is vastly most of them) and right hand bias often make choil shots appear to curve a bit. 

oh and also some of them have low spots near the edge


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

Here's choil of my denka which also looks good but if you look at the blade road, my edge was quite thick in the front part and at 1 inch from the heel. And it was very thick the whole area behind the edge (thickness at 1 cm above the edge around 1.5 mm which is thicker than even my Heiji).






I think many of you have saw this video of it cutting compared to Kono FM,


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## FishmanDE (Jul 29, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Here's choil of my denka which also looks good but if you look at the blade road, my edge was quite thick in the front part and at 1 inch from the heel. And it was very thick the whole area behind the edge (thickness at 1 cm above the edge around 1.5 mm which is thicker than even my Heiji).
> 
> View attachment 135774
> View attachment 135773
> ...




The video only shows 2 slices with the TF?


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> The video only shows 2 slices with the TF?


I made that video for the Kono. Only included the denka to show it's a difficult carrot to cut. I didn't make a longer video for OOTB denka because I lost interests after a few cuts in a carrot.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

Just to be clearer I'm not saying people shouldn't buy TF. If you know exactly what it is or what to expect, who am I to say NO about it? I myself want a 240 denka as I really love the steel. But for a new comer this is not the best knife to start with IMO given the variance and uncertainty, unless you get it second hand from someone like lemeneid. And even lemeneid spent quite some time on his denka with sandpapers and stones IIRC. How many people thin their Toyama or Yoshi within the first month?


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## lemeneid (Jul 29, 2021)

This is my comparison between stock Denka vs a tuned Toyama/Watanabe honyaki by a professional sharpener.

As far as I know, the honyakis are closer to the current stainless clad in weight and grind but still thicker and heavier, but you can see, thinness behind the edge helps a lot in the cut. 





Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Here's choil of my denka which also looks good but if you look at the blade road, my edge was quite thick in the front part and at 1 inch from the heel. And it was very thick the whole area behind the edge (thickness at 1 cm above the edge around 1.5 mm which is thicker than even my Heiji).
> 
> View attachment 135774
> View attachment 135773
> ...



Your Denka is indeed a little fatter, sorta like my Denka petty, and I do have a little wedging on it, but nothing like yours.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 29, 2021)

No complaints here. OOTB grind finessed by TF IV on my 210 Yo Denka


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> This is my comparison between stock Denka vs a tuned Toyama/Watanabe honyaki by a professional sharpener.
> 
> As far as I know, the honyakis are closer to the current stainless clad in weight and grind but still thicker and heavier, but you can see, thinness behind the edge helps a lot in the cut.
> 
> ...



Yours indeed look very good. Mine works fine after 2 hours on stones. Still not cutting as effortlessly as Wat but was close enough.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> No complaints here. OOTB grind finessed by TF IV on my 210 Yo Denka


Great choil. Now we have 3 ways to get great TF for sure,
1. Have TF IV himself finish it for you (won't be easy but you can ask Corradobrit1 how)
2. Have Morihei finish it for you (not available for denka option)
3. Buy it second hand from whoever got a good one or made a good one after hours of work


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## lemeneid (Jul 29, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Great choil. Now we have 3 ways to get great TF for sure,
> 1. Have TF IV himself finish it for you (won't be easy but you can ask Corradobrit1 how)
> 2. Have Morihei finish it for you (not available for denka option)
> 3. Buy it second hand from whoever got a good one or made a good one after hours of work


There isn’t a problem buying “blind” now. I’ve recommended Denkas to lots of people on KKF and they’re all great cutters. Don’t know anyone who is dissatisfied with a recent Denka purchase.

Same with mine, purchased the last one remaining in store, came out perfect!


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> There isn’t a problem buying “blind” now. I’ve recommended Denkas to lots of people on KKF and they’re all great cutters. Don’t know anyone who is dissatisfied with a recent Denka purchase.
> 
> Same with mine, purchased the last one remaining in store, came out perfect!


I got mine in December 2020 so it’s not like years ago. Must be an outlier then.


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## superworrier (Jul 29, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> Hey man, that’s what they told me in store. Now the website is saying “temporarily oos” so I clearly have no idea what’s going on


Although they may have misspoke, the message on the website is probably just a generic OOS message and they haven’t removed it yet.


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## lemeneid (Jul 29, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I got mine in December 2020 so it’s not like years ago. Must be an outlier then.


Did you buy from TF or a retailer? It’s a little odd though, every modern TF I know is thin as hell. What’s the weight of your knife?


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## ljknb9264 (Jul 29, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> Did you buy from TF or a retailer? It’s a little odd though, every modern TF I know is thin as hell. What’s the weight of your knife?


As messages I got from TF, they are now receiving orders with almost same requests. They likely have better quality control nowadays. But I am not 100% sure.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 29, 2021)

Just a little perspective all the knives discussed here are vastly superior to what 99%
of the mass population uses.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> Did you buy from TF or a retailer? It’s a little odd though, every modern TF I know is thin as hell. What’s the weight of your knife?


From TF directly. 216 gram for a 210.


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## WaTFTanaki (Jul 29, 2021)

Same from TF directly Denka 210 3 months ago. 228 gms


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## PeterL (Jul 29, 2021)

Mine is a 210 Denka western too that the previous owner got from TF directly a couple months ago. Weighs in at 222g.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 29, 2021)

You guys got some heavy 210 Denka's. Mine's a svelte 177g. It lost 3g after TF IV thinned the blade road.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 29, 2021)

great news everyone! TF can now send out _most_ of their 700 USD denkas without straight up garbage grinds, such that you only have to deal with low spots instead of too much meat bte (btw to be clear only one of the 3 tfs I currently own was _that_ bad the other two were only kinda bad)

definitely still a great knife to recommend to someone who's sharpening/thinning skills we dont know.

over a knife like a Toyama that's a known consistently good knife with a similarly great heat treat of a good steel.

come on folks, consider your audience please. if you are asking _should I buy a TF_, you're the wrong person. if you're asking _why did I do this to myself?_ then youre the right audience.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 29, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> great news everyone! TF can now send out _most_ of their 700 USD denkas without straight up garbage grinds, such that you only have to deal with low spots instead of too much meat bte (btw to be clear only one of the 3 tfs I currently own was _that_ bad the other two were only kinda bad)
> 
> definitely still a great knife to recommend to someone who's sharpening/thinning skills we dont know.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> You guys got some heavy 210 Denka's. Mine's a svelte 177g. It lost 3g after TF IV thinned the blade road.


Mine lost 7 grams to remove 2 low spots. Actually I don't mind having a few more grams since I was prepared for a project knife. More meats give more room for fine tuning. It was pretty good after the work. Like lemeneid said, cut well with solid/stiff workhorse feel, plus the great steel. I didn't find the AS more keen than white 1 like lemenid mentioned, but I also feel TF AS edge could get quite keen easily and is very stable.


----------



## lemeneid (Jul 29, 2021)

Hmm my Morihei 240 is 247g and my Denka was 253g. Thought I could use more weight though. But they’re both ridiculously thin for their weight. My Denka definitely has a thick spine.


----------



## Carl Kotte (Jul 29, 2021)

Only tried one denka and one maboroshi. Neither of them had good grinds. They were both kinda flat wide bevels. Given spine thinness I’d say they came as chunky middle weights (on the lasery side without laser qualities); not workhorses by any means (No real meat, no significant weight, no nice convex grind). 
watanabe on the other hand. It’s the best japanese knife I’ve tried.

so, I recommend denka!


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> Hmm my Morihei 240 is 247g and my Denka was 253g. Thought I could use more weight though. But they’re both ridiculously thin for their weight. My Denka definitely has a thick spine.


My Morihei 240 was 225g. It cuts pretty well but lacks the workhorse feel. More like a lighter mid-weight laser.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jul 29, 2021)

Carl Kotte said:


> Only tried one denka and one maboroshi. Neither of them had good grinds. They were both kinda flat wide bevels. Given spine thinness I’d say they came as chunky middle weights (on the lasery side without laser qualities); not workhorses by any means (No real meat, no significant weight, no nice convex grind).
> watanabe on the other hand. It’s the best japanese knife I’ve tried.
> 
> so, I recommend denka!


GLWS. Keep increasing the price and it will sell eventually.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jul 29, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> My Morihei 240 was 225g. It cuts pretty well but lacks the workhorse feel. More like a lighter mid-weight laser.


Interesting. That was my impression when I had 210 and 240 iron clad Morihei's. The regular TF Mabs and Denka's have a density and heft thats reminiscent of my Honyaki's. The Nashiji on the other hand is a total lightweight.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 29, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> GLWS. Keep increasing the price and it will sell eventually.


It’s a great method… disregarding the fact it seldom works


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 29, 2021)

Hoppy said:


> I’m filling a gap in my current set and looking at a 240 Gyuto.
> 
> rest of my knives are Takedas with a Masaki petty which I like the knife but dislike the reactivity.
> 
> ...


FWIW, I like having one of each. Sorry, I'm no help!
I bit the bullet and got a denka pretty early, and it made me feel like a master sharpener. Reality struck later, I'm average at best. 
I'm with you on Mazaki reactivity. Loved everything else, that was a deal breaker. Mizuno too.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> FWIW, I like having one of each. Sorry, I'm no help!
> I bit the bullet and got a denka pretty early, and it made me feel like a master sharpener. Reality struck later, I'm average at best.
> I'm with you on Mazaki reactivity. Loved everything else, that was a deal breaker. Mizuno too.


My Mazaki Ku got rusted spots in the ku area occasionally. Kato's cladding also has crazy reactivity. I guess Maz learnt that from him.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 29, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> My Mazaki Ku got rusted spots in the ku area occasionally. Kato's cladding also has crazy reactivity. I guess Maz learnt that from him.



on the other hand, it's so reactive and you'll spend so much time polishing eventually you'll even grind out those trenches he calls a scratch pattern!


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## hmh (Jul 29, 2021)

I have a 210 denka (ordered direct with a few specifications) and 240 SS toyama. F&F on the denka is definitely really bad for the price but the grind is actually better than on the toyama with a distal taper that ends in a perfect tip for me (thin but not so thin that you always have to worry about tipping it). it's pretty thin bte, was sharp out of the box and there were no issues with the blade road. I haven't checked for low spots yet. 

tried to get a 225x54 (or 210 with more height) toyama with a finer tip but none of the resellers want to take custom orders though. maybe one day!


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 29, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> Hmm my Morihei 240 is 247g and my Denka was 253g. Thought I could use more weight though. But they’re both ridiculously thin for their weight. My Denka definitely has a thick spine.



Thick spines are fine as long what's below is a good grind.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 29, 2021)

Rookies from the begining
Ain't going to be good at thinning


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 29, 2021)

For new friends to learn thinning, I would recommend Heiji Carbon steel with Kurochi finish. It's easy to sharpen. It has A LOT steel to remove. Keeping the kurochi intact could be a small fun challenge while you are thinning. Removing the kurochi and adding a hairline finish could also be something you can have fun with as next stage. If you like it as it is OOTB, it's also a very good knife in its category. I mean it has true zero edge and a very stiff/solid grind. It cuts anything other than dense tall produce like a charm.

And most importantly, it only costs you <$300 direct from Heiji. A 240 denka would costs $800+.


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## lemeneid (Jul 29, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Thick spines are fine as long what's below is a good grind.


I love thicker spines with super thin grinds on my knives. That’s how I chose my knives now, so you get the weight of workhorses with the cutting ability of lasers.


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## cawilson6072 (Jul 29, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> I love thicker spines with super thin grinds on my knives. That’s how I chose my knives now, so you get the weight of workhorses with the cutting ability of lasers.



I totally agree with this in my limited but growing experience in using Japanese kitchen knives (hence my professed love for my Kisuke Nakiri that I have posted elsewhere), but maybe hadn’t thought of it in exactly these terms or have brand familiarity as to which blacksmiths tend to hit this balance. @lemeneid What makes and models do you find to epitomize the “laser pushed by a hammer” balance?


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## lemeneid (Jul 29, 2021)

cawilson6072 said:


> I totally agree with this in my limited but growing experience in using Japanese kitchen knives (hence my professed love for my Kisuke Nakiri that I have posted elsewhere), but maybe hadn’t thought of it in exactly these terms or have brand familiarity as to which blacksmiths tend to hit this balance. @lemeneid What makes and models do you find to epitomize the “laser pushed by a hammer” balance?


If you don’t have much experience in this. Just look for tall and heavy knives in general. That will be a good place to start and check their spine thickness and choil to confirm.

Short knives in general aren’t able to be heavy and thin together. There are exceptions but not many.


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## M1k3 (Jul 30, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> For new friends to learn thinning, I would recommend Heiji Carbon steel with Kurochi finish. It's easy to sharpen. It has A LOT steel to remove. Keeping the kurochi intact could be a small fun challenge while you are thinning. Removing the kurochi and adding a hairline finish could also be something you can have fun with as next stage. If you like it as it is OOTB, it's also a very good knife in its category. I mean it has true zero edge and a very stiff/solid grind. It cuts anything other than dense tall produce like a charm.
> 
> And most importantly, it only costs you <$300 direct from Heiji. A 240 denka would costs $800+.


And the spine is straight and no holes in the edge. On the Heiji that is.

P.S. The semi-stainless one comes with the Predator dots


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2021)

Hoppy said:


> I’ve narrowed it down to:
> 
> TF Denka
> Wat 240
> ...


Excellent choices and I'd agree that the Denka is the "best" knife. But you might prefer a Wat 240 over a western Denka 240 if you want a lighter (but not light) knife.


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## packster (Aug 19, 2021)

Just wanted to add to the Shinichi comments on this thread. I recently contacted him about a Wat Pro 180 that he had in stock and said I'd like to buy it and asked for a picture of the actual knife. I added that I hoped the ferrule/handle was not too uneven. He responded promptly: 

"Thanks for your reply.
Sorry, we don't take each pictures.
D-shaped burnt chestnut wood with plastic hilt are same.
It doesn't fit smoothly."

I nonetheless decided to buy the knife. He shipped it immediately (with a small gift, which I think is a standard practice for him) and the nakiri was awesome. The plastic is plastic, but the handle is fine. 

So, rough edge in communication? Sure. But my experience was good.


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