# Ankerson's comprehensive take on edge retention



## 2bApical? (Feb 18, 2019)

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ed-on-edge-retention-cutting-5-8-rope.793481/ I glean that this guy gets some respect. Lots of info, hopefully somewhat accurate in one spot that some might find useful.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 18, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ed-on-edge-retention-cutting-5-8-rope.793481/ I glean that this guy gets some respect. Lots of info, hopefully somewhat accurate in one spot that some might find useful.


Too many supposed high alloy super steels in this list, that don't have the durability and stability that I believe is important to have in a kitchen knife.

I think in the hunt for the ultimate steel, people forget that white and blue#2 are very balanced, awesome stuff.


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## Nemo (Feb 18, 2019)

A fascination with highly alloyed steels, I sense.

I guess they make sense for EDC type knives but there are some significant tradeoffs vs simpler steels in kitchen knives. FWIW, I rarely, if ever, cut rope with my kitchen knives.

Where PM steels make sense in the kitchen is:
1) In a pro environment where a simpler steel's edge won't last a whole shift.
2) Where the home user is unable to maintan an edge themselves. For this reason, I can remember a fascination with PM steels and edge retention when I first became interested in knives (so I am quite sympathetic to this situation).

The more I sharpen, the more I appreciate simple, high hardness carbon steels for their sharpenability. I'd much rather spend a minute or two touching up a carbon steel knife once every week or two than 15 mins on a PM knife once a month. And I'll end up with a sharper knife.

Don't get me wrong, there are some great knives made of PM steels and I have and love several of them. I guess what I'm getting at is that although the edge retention can be superior, highly alloyed steels come with a price in terms of ease of sharpening, sharpening feel and ultimate sharpness achievable.

Note also that the heat treatment of the steel will have a significant effect on edge retention in food, as will the geometry of the knife and especially the cutting surface (board).


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## Cyrilix (Feb 18, 2019)

Nemo said:


> A fascination with highly alloyed steels, I sense.
> 
> I guess they make sense for EDC type knives but there are some significant tradeoffs vs simpler steels in kitchen knives. FWIW, I rarely, if ever, cut rope with my kitchen knives.
> 
> ...



Out of the entire list, I would be curious of Niolox and S35VN as steels that seem a little more balanced. Not sure if anyone has experience with these.


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## inferno (Feb 18, 2019)

I completely agree with nemo. For me personally I think I want steel that maintains its ultra sharp fresh off the stones sharpness for the longest. And to be honest none of "super steels" does that any longer than the regular common stuff. So I simply don't see the point with them.

And most of the super steels will not perform really well in low angle applications. They will micro chip. Its high carbon, high hardness, high alloy, high vanadium. But some of them will probably keep a slightly chipped "quite sharp" edge for a long long time.

Put an edge on a krupp stainless low hrc knife just now. Took me like 1 minute on a 2k stone. Done. Most supersteel will take at least 10 times longer.

I'd say you probably want knives with all types of steel to try out yourself. 

I don't think anyone will really be able to tell a big difference between most common pocket knife supersteels and r2 for example. They are all so similar.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 18, 2019)

+1 Nemo. I value cutting ease/less stickage (grind related) and shapenability above edge retention. Especially when you have several sharp knives at your disposal. The problem with extremely hard to sharpen steels is that you need something special to sharpen them and make sharpening a nice experience.

As a home cook, i'm past six months using a CPM154 gyuto to slice stuff (ripe tomatoes and limes/lemons inclued) once a week in average and the edge is still workable. Last time i sharpened it, it took something like 5 minutes. On the other hand, a Tesshu white #2 is probably the one gyuto with worst edge retention among the ones i use, but it is heaven to sharpen, so i can't get enough sharpening it.

I would be interested in extremely hard to sharpen steels if they were tough enough to allow acuter angles on primary and secondary edges and this arrangement were stable (no crumbling edges after little usage).


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 18, 2019)

inferno said:


> For me personally I think I want steel that maintains its ultra sharp fresh off the stones sharpness for the longest.



That's a nice thought.


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## Barmoley (Feb 18, 2019)

Larrin in his article https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/02/11/can-catra-predict-rope-cutting-performance/ used Ankerson’s volume of work. I think it is very useful and interesting stuff and adds more data to look at.

I like to play with different steels and I don’t think white 2 is the best steel ever. I also think that steel choice is secondary to the rest of the knife’s attributes, grind, profile, balance are all more important, but steel does make a difference. High wear resistant steels also make more sense in folders or small fixed blades mainly because the cutting edge is much shorter and the stuff being cut is, in most cases, a lot more abrasive. Due to this, the differences in steels are a lot more evident. It is also not that difficult to sharpen a short, thin knife. I used to have a Phil Wilson 4.5” hunter utility made out of cpm-10v @64hrc and it cut great, held the edge better than anything else I’ve tried and sharpened very easily on Japanese water stones. It had a very thin blade and was very thin behind the edge.

My experience in cutting cardboard and such with simple steels vs high wear resistant steels is also different from above. I’ve seen real, difference when using different steels, it is anecdotal and not scientific at all, but at least my experience is similar to what Ankerson’s and Larrin’s data shows. Many times the argument has been made that cardboard, rope, carpet, CATRA cards are not what we cut in the kitchen and it is true, but there has to be pretty high correlation.


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## Michi (Feb 18, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Many times the argument has been made that cardboard, rope, carpet, CATRA cards are not what we cut in the kitchen and it is true, but there has to be pretty high correlation.


I agree, it's certainly better than no test, and I expect it to be correlated, too.

Much of the blunting of a knife in a kitchen doesn't come from cutting food, but from board contact. (If this weren't so, people wouldn't endlessly obsess about what material to use for cutting boards.) I can't think of anything I cut in my normal cooking that is even vaguely as hard as card stock, except maybe hard biltong. (But I _know_ that the biltong will dull my knife very quickly and, accordingly, use a beater knife anyway.)

An interesting test would be to run the edge over a (standardised) cutting board at some set level of pressure and then measure sharpness, say, until the knife won't easily cut a tomato any longer. This just might make for a more realistic test than cutting card stock?


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## Cyrilix (Feb 18, 2019)

Michi said:


> I agree, it's certainly better than no test, and I expect it be correlated, too.
> 
> Much of the blunting of a knife in a kitchen doesn't come from cutting food, but from board contact. (If this weren't so, people wouldn't endlessly obsess about what material to use for cutting boards.) I can't think of anything I cut in my normal cooking that is even vaguely as hard as card stock, except maybe hard biltong. (But I _know_ that the biltong will dull my knife very quickly and, accordingly, use a beater knife anyway.)
> 
> An interesting test would be to run the edge over a (standardised) cutting board at some set level of pressure and then measure sharpness, say, until the knife won't easily cut a tomato any longer. This just might make for a more realistic test than cutting card stock?


That's a pretty good idea. Would love to see a hi soft vs walnut vs maple vs bamboo vs hdpe comparison. Assuming the machine can be calibrated for this type of work.


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## inferno (Feb 18, 2019)

I think most supersteels will cur anything longer than simple steels. I mean thats why there invented in the first place.
I think its more a question of what an acceptable edge is. I read some people here never going above 1k for example. and personally I never go below 2k. Usually 3-4k. Thats what I want and like. The different steels also dull in different ways. Sometimes its just more practical with lower tech steels that are easier to keep sharp. 

At work I sharpened a stainless mora heavy duty that I used to scrape rust and dirt off machines, and prying stuff apart. For about 2 weeks. So it was quite dull, worn and had many small chips in the edge. Took me 2 minutes on a worn out p600 paper to get it back to new again. Can't beat that really. s30v or similar would not have taken that time...


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 18, 2019)

It's always nice to make tests and extra information won't hurt. I also believe there is a correlation regarding edge retention between cutting, for instance, cardboard and food (meaning if edge retention is higher cutting cardboard it will be higher cutting non acidic food).

My point is: does it make sense to sacrify sharpenability when edge retention is not a problem currently? I would welcome extra edge retention if it didn't affect sharpenability, but it does. That's my problem with ceramic blades.

As Inferno says, if it could keep ultra sharpness for much longer, that would be a factor for me, but otherwise no game.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 18, 2019)

Average sharpness of a knife that you like to sharpen and sharpen more ofteni
IMHO often higher overall than something that stays OK forever,
but is a hassle.

PM steels like r2 are good on lasers because the instabilty of the thin BTE grind
means higher flex, more distortion, and some how less retention on simple carbons
in this configuration (many complaints of white steel lasers with lousy retention)

So you see alot of PM steels on (short blades) 210 and below, and you see alot
of PM blades with credit-card looking choil shots (super thin) etc.


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## daveb (Feb 18, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> Lots of info, hopefully somewhat accurate in one spot that some might find useful.



Dude, Look around a bit and your might find some of that sort of thing here. Effing rope.....


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## 2bApical? (Feb 18, 2019)

Michi said:


> I agree, it's certainly better than no test, and I expect it to be correlated, too.
> 
> Much of the blunting of a knife in a kitchen doesn't come from cutting food, but from board contact. (If this weren't so, people wouldn't endlessly obsess about what material to use for cutting boards.) I can't think of anything I cut in my normal cooking that is even vaguely as hard as card stock, except maybe hard biltong. (But I _know_ that the biltong will dull my knife very quickly and, accordingly, use a beater knife anyway.)
> 
> An interesting test would be to run the edge over a (standardised) cutting board at some set level of pressure and then measure sharpness, say, until the knife won't easily cut a tomato any longer. This just might make for a more realistic test than cutting card stock?


*Wood Species* *Janka Hardness* *Grain Texture*
Brazilian Walnut ( _Ipe_) 3600 Varying
Brazillian Cherry ( _Jatoba_) 2820 Interlocked
Olive 2700 Varying
Purpleheart 1860 Straight
Maple, Hard 1450 Straight
Bamboo 1400 Varying, with nodes
Birch, Yellow 1260 Straight
Teak, Plantation 1100 Straight
Walnut, Black 1010 Straight
Cherry, American 950 Straight, close
Acacia ( _Monkeypod_) 900 Straight, Varying
Eastern Larch ( _Tamarack)_ 600 Spiral
Japanese Cypress ( _Hinoki_) 510 Straight
_Thanks to the Wood Database for many of these Janka ratings_
This should give some indication for woods. Whole article is titled 
*Which Cutting Boards are Best for Knives? from cutting boards.com I myself will soon go for one of the vinyl or rubber boards*


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## 2bApical? (Feb 18, 2019)

Michi said:


> I agree, it's certainly better than no test, and I expect it to be correlated, too.
> 
> Much of the blunting of a knife in a kitchen doesn't come from cutting food, but from board contact. (If this weren't so, people wouldn't endlessly obsess about what material to use for cutting boards.) I can't think of anything I cut in my normal cooking that is even vaguely as hard as card stock, except maybe hard biltong. (But I _know_ that the biltong will dull my knife very quickly and, accordingly, use a beater knife anyway.)
> 
> An interesting test would be to run the edge over a (standardised) cutting board at some set level of pressure and then measure sharpness, say, until the knife won't easily cut a tomato any longer. This just might make for a more realistic test than cutting card stock?


I can't find the article but in terms of none wood boards from hardest on edges to easiest it goes plastic, vinyl and rubber according to the article with no actual tests?? The numbers for the woods are Mohs hardness numbers.


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## Bert2368 (Feb 19, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> The numbers for the woods are Mohs hardness numbers.



Mohs hardness is usually used for minerals- A quick and dirty field test, you could ballpark a sample's hardness from what a test material was scratched by and what materials it could, in turn scratch.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness

The numbers given for wood above are Janka hardness test numbers, which are the force required to embed a particular Dia. steel ball exactly half way into a sample of wood.

Beware of using different sources when comparing Janka numbers. If they didn't use the same unit of force when developing the tables, you may be comparing apples to oranges.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test


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## HRC_64 (Feb 19, 2019)

embedding balls is more like a compression test and not a resistance to being cut...
keep in mind a classic example...is teak (softer than maple) which is full of natural silica 
and dulls blades readily if you try to cut it (look this up in woodworking forums)


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## Ruso (Feb 19, 2019)

I like PM steels, I like super steels, I like carbon steels, I like tool steels and stainless steel. As long as they are well HT and the geometry is right I like em all. 

P.S. I am not a big fan of whites for gyutos tho....


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## 2bApical? (Feb 19, 2019)

Bert2368 said:


> Mohs hardness is usually used for minerals- A quick and dirty field test, you could ballpark a sample's hardness from what a test material was scratched by and what materials it could, in turn scratch.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness
> 
> ...


It says Janka right on the article but I could have sworn I read something about the use of the Mohs scale. My bad. I went back to the article and couldn't find it. I must have conflated the miss information with something else I read. It won't happen again.


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## inferno (Feb 19, 2019)

Hardness and density is pretty much the only tools they have to grade wood. So this is whats used.
If you look on https://www.bellforestproducts.com/exotic-wood/ you can see how its graded.


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## inferno (Feb 19, 2019)

Ruso said:


> I like PM steels, I like super steels, I like carbon steels, I like tool steels and stainless steel. *As long as they are well HT and the geometry is right I like em all. *
> 
> P.S. I am not a big fan of whites for gyutos tho....



so do i!


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## 2bApical? (Feb 19, 2019)

Michi said:


> I agree, it's certainly better than no test, and I expect it to be correlated, too.
> 
> Much of the blunting of a knife in a kitchen doesn't come from cutting food, but from board contact. (If this weren't so, people wouldn't endlessly obsess about what material to use for cutting boards.) I can't think of anything I cut in my normal cooking that is even vaguely as hard as card stock, except maybe hard biltong. (But I _know_ that the biltong will dull my knife very quickly and, accordingly, use a beater knife anyway.)
> 
> An interesting test would be to run the edge over a (standardised) cutting board at some set level of pressure and then measure sharpness, say, until the knife won't easily cut a tomato any longer. This just might make for a more realistic test than cutting card stock?


Michi, I think you'll find this possibly useful. In this test of cutting boards they said they ran their knives on the board 750 times to check the effects on the edges. They liked a brand of teak the best.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 19, 2019)

those guys couldn't dull a gyuto without running it on glass in their chef knife test (?)
...makes you wonder about picking a teak cutting board given their known issues


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## HRC_64 (Feb 19, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> I'd be more than happy to get your comprehensive test conclusions on the best cutting boards 64. Plastic is too hard, wood warps, splits, gets moldy, rubber is annoying because it grabs the knife, oh my?



I don't know who you're quoting...You know its possible to just lay out the pro/cons and ask people with experience about the tradeoffs? 

Almost everything out there has tradeoffs including end-grain north american hardwoods (heavy, expensive, stack height). Sometimes variety and numbers are useful for workflow and this also means economcis/storage other non-knife elements come into play.

My main point is you should have one edge friendly board and beware of various tradeoffs.


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## Michi (Feb 19, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> Michi, I think you'll find this possibly useful. In this test of cutting boards they said they ran their knives on the board 750 times to check the effects on the edges. They liked a brand of teak the best.


Thanks for that. I've seen that video previously and was surprised that teak came out on top, given its bad reputation for blunting tools and knives. I honestly don't know what to make of that…


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 19, 2019)

I've been washing my end grain cuttng board for years without using hot water after mineral oil treatment. No problem at all.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 19, 2019)

Michi said:


> Thanks for that. I've seen that video previously and was surprised that teak came out on top, given it's bad reputation for blunting tools and knives. I honestly don't know what to make of that…


At least the type of teak in the chart of Janka hardness is 1100, softer than some maple?? I thought I'd post that since you brought up the idea of testing boards. I am taking in your comments and many others as to how important the board is in terms of edge retention. Real beginner stuff I know. Seems like many complain about the rubber grabbing. I can't just buy everything to try out. I have an email to the teak company as to whether or not one has to dry the board out every time. If not I will pick one up. I now read that there are hard plastic and soft plastic boards and that if you can slice the plastic board with a certain amount of ease then it will be easier on the knife. I tried this on my board and it did seem pretty hard. Maybe I'll run the question of teak being a bit on the hard side to the company and see what they say. They do advertise that their boards are easy on knives. 750 cuts on each board sure seems like it would have the potential to be a good test. From my very little experience American Test Kitchen's adoration of the Victorinox chef knife and it edge retention abilities leaves me with a certain amount of chagrin. Unless I'm hallucinatin' it seems pretty obvious that my VG-10 chef's holds up longer. ??


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## 2bApical? (Feb 20, 2019)

Michi said:


> Thanks for that. I've seen that video previously and was surprised that teak came out on top, given its bad reputation for blunting tools and knives. I honestly don't know what to make of that…


After this Michi I don't know what to make of it either? " Workability: Easy to work in nearly all regards, with the only caveat being that Teak contains a high level of silica (up to 1.4%) which has a pronounced blunting effect on cutting edges. Despite its natural oils, Teak usually glues and finishes well, though in some instances it may be necessary to wipe the surface of the wood with a solvent prior to gluing/finishing to reduce the natural oils on the surface of the wood."


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## Bert2368 (Feb 20, 2019)

As far as silica in cellulosic plant materials harming knife edges, BAMBOO has more of this than most woods do, up to 5% by weight. Yet there are plenty of cutting boards made from bamboo, I have not heard of these having a bad reputation for knife wear. Does it?

https://www2.palomar.edu/users/warmstrong/ecoph39.htm

If not, silica content may not be the major factor in some types of cutting boards excessive wear on knife edges.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 20, 2019)

Bert2368 said:


> As far as silica in cellulosic plant materials harming knife edges, BAMBOO has more of this than most woods do, up to 5% by weight. Yet there are plenty of cutting boards made from bamboo, I have not heard of these having a bad reputation for knife wear. Does it?
> 
> https://www2.palomar.edu/users/warmstrong/ecoph39.htm
> 
> If not, silica content may not be the major factor in some types of cutting boards excessive wear on knife edges.


It's not hard to find complaints on the net in regards to bamboo's effect on the edge. Here is a excerpt from Kitchen Knife Guru: “Maple is far more consistent in hardness whereas bamboo is super hard at the nodes and soft in between,” my sharpening guy said. The nodes will kill you. Or the soft in between. Or, more accurately, the uneven wear between them tends to shred the edge of your blade. Especially if you’re doing a whole lot of chopping."


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## podzap (Feb 20, 2019)

Bamboo might have more silica than teak but the fibers are also very tough and strongly resist scoring. If you can't score the surface easily then you aren't dragging your edge through a silica impregnated vee shape.

Teak, acacia, etc are much softer. Try this for a test: buy a few sets of wooden spoons for cooking and inspect the working ends after two months of use. Teak and acacia will have deformed, bloomed edges after two months of scraping the bottom of pans, whereas BAMBOO will have unfrayed and unsmashed working ends after six or seven years of use. With bamboo, small chunks of fibres may eventually break off from the ends but even that is minimal.

I would say that, yes, silica is a major factor regarding edge wear in e.g. teak boards. However, in harder boards like bamboo the edge never makes it to the silica because the surface fibres themselves are so tough and they themselves are responsible for dulling.

But what do I know? I also don't put orange slices into my G&T.


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## daveb (Feb 20, 2019)

I've not seen the particulars of this "test" but ATK over the years has demonstrated they don't set up t&e well. Citing them as a source says more about the poster than it does about teak boards.


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## Michi (Feb 20, 2019)

It really would be interesting to take, say, a bunch of white steel knives, and another bunch of, say, VG10 or similar, sharpen them all up to the same angle and polish, and then run each of them at a set amount of pressure over a different type of board. Plastic, rubber, end grain and edge grain hardwoods, such as bamboo, teak, cherry, etc. Count the number of strokes until the board doesn't cut something properly anymore (preferably tomato instead of paper).

I'm sure it would be possible to eventually figure out fairly objectively which board does what in terms of edge retention. But it also would be a very elaborate and time-consuming test 

I'm currently using a bamboo edge grain board for various reasons. It's nice in terms of looks, weight, and durability, but I'm not impressed with how quickly it dulls my knives. (Or, at least, I _think_ that my knives are getting duller more quickly than I would like; perception bias can really distort things…) I'll be replacing that board at some point soonish with an edge grain board made out of a different wood. (I'm open to suggestions as to what wood might be a good choice.) I can't use end grain because I need a large (roughly 23" x 20") board, and the thickness of end grain in that size is prohibitive in my case; it would raise the cutting height too much.

If I notice any difference in edge retention, I'll report back. Or I just might carry out that test with, say, two different knives on each of the boards. At least that would tell me whether the replacement board is any kinder to my edges…


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## Barmoley (Feb 20, 2019)

Not sure how or why this turned into a cutting board discussion thread, but hey why not. If you haven't seen this thread https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/hi-soft-cutting-board-feedback.40406/ check it out. It has good info in it.

Hinoki cutting boards are very gentle on the edges, much more so than even end grain maple. As was mentioned in the other thread they have their negatives, such as warping and discoloration, but if you don't care about discoloration they are very nice, light and easy on the edges. Or get the hi-soft. In any case bamboo and teak in general are not the best for edges, this has been pretty well documented on this forum and others. At one point I saw someone making an end-grain bamboo board and that was supposed to be better on edges and have some of the bamboo benefits. I never tried such a board and at the time thought that it would be down to construction and the glue/resin used, as a lot more glue would have to be used.


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## 2bApical? (Feb 20, 2019)

Michi said:


> It really would be interesting to take, say, a bunch of white steel knives, and another bunch of, say, VG10 or similar, sharpen them all up to the same angle and polish, and then run each of them at a set amount of pressure over a different type of board. Plastic, rubber, end grain and edge grain hardwoods, such as bamboo, teak, cherry, etc. Count the number of strokes until the board doesn't cut something properly anymore (preferably tomato instead of paper).
> 
> I'm sure it would be possible to eventually figure out fairly objectively which board does what in terms of edge retention. But it also would be a very elaborate and time-consuming test
> 
> ...


Michi, consider reading what Boardsmith has to say under faq's. He mentions that bamboo uses a lot of resin that is hard on knives. A general recommendation is to use wood from between like 850 and 1600 on the Janka scale. Over at the link suggested by Barmoley people love the Hi-soft boards. The Hi-soft are vinyl acetate which don't seem to get the criticism that rubber gets about the knife being grabbed but I could be incorrect? Cherry weighs in at 950 on the Janka scale.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 20, 2019)

bamboo has very thin strips, so lots of glue make up a large % of surface area...amongst other problems
similar to cutting on the resin impregnated boards, they feel very hard... and lack good feedback or board feel.

[for any given board]

cost
form factor
longevity
feel/feebdack when cutting
edge retention 
local availability

many factors and like everything its a tradeoff which is "best"


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## parbaked (Feb 20, 2019)

I am talking about slicing raw protein, not chopping vegetables.
As such the criteria that really matter are 1) build quality and 2) the ability to get it clean/sterilized.
I'm not banging my suji or honesuki into the board, so edge retention and feedback don't really matter.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 20, 2019)

parbaked said:


> ...talking about slicing raw protein, not chopping vegetables.
> As such the criteria that really matter are 1) build quality and 2) the ability to get it clean/sterilized.



Agree with you for eg. protein prep no prob using plastic/poly...as you mentiont theres just not that much edge contact and the abilty to clean the item and other non-cutting aspects are important (size, storage, cost, etc).


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## Michi (Feb 20, 2019)

2bApical? said:


> Michi, consider reading what Boardsmith has to say under faq's.


Will do. My apologies for derailing the thread!


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## Foltest (Mar 8, 2019)

I dont think its great test for kitchen knives, reason being is that sharpness required for cutting food is not the same as for cutting rope. The edge that will cut rope just fine for days probably would be best for cutting soft tomatoes. In terms of sharpness, range where the knife is sharp enough for food doesn't overlap with the sharpness necessary for rope cutting. For edc's and utility knives it's not bad test tho.


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## Barmoley (Mar 8, 2019)

He is not just cutting rope, he is cutting until force to cut becomes more then a certain number. At this point the knife will still cut rope. Would it be a better test for kitchen knives if he cut tomatoes instead? How would that translate to cutting carrots or meat?

Of course a test of cutting rope is just that. A test of cutting abrasive impregnated cards is just that. Those two seem to be highly correlated, so is it not reasonable to assume that these are also highly correlated to cutting food?


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