# Favorite Heat Treatments



## Southpaw (Apr 28, 2021)

So when I started collecting knives, I made my purchases by two main criteria- different finishes (San mai, Damascus, SS clad, mono) and different core steels. IE I didn’t want to buy two blue 2 dammies, or a KS and an Ashi white2.

by doing this it was to try get a diverse roster and I feel I’ve accomplished this so far.

but my last knives really have shown that the core steel isn’t a great indicator on how said core steel will perform.

Nakagawa forged my Blue 2 Suiboku and I can’t say enough good things about it. It sharpens really fast and takes an edge as good as anything I own. And I’ve struggled to be satisfied with other Blue 2 knives that it used to be a kiss of death when I’d look at potential acquisitions.

the other one is Shigefusa’s treat of Swedish Carbon steel. It blows my mind how great it is. My only other experience was Tsukiji Masamoto, and you’d think they were completely different steels.

I’m glad I selected the knives the way I did, but man you guys hit the nail on the head when u said it’s more about who forged than what was forged

so who’s your favorite treat of a steel? I’m sure a lot of people are going to say Yoshikazu Tanaka’s Blue 1


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## TSF415 (Apr 28, 2021)

Miz Blue#1. I used it for weeks on a poly board without sharpening it.


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## MowgFace (Apr 28, 2021)

...The Tsukiji Masamoto _is_ a completely different steel.

Is your Tsukiji Masamoto SK or V2?


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## spaceconvoy (Apr 28, 2021)

The blue 2 gyutos I have from Watanabe and Itsuo Doi are the best carbon steel treatments I've owned. The difference is indistinguishable to me


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## AT5760 (Apr 28, 2021)

This may sound odd, but the $40 bunka that I bought from Hida tool - guessing blue 1/2. Really easy to get really sharp, holds an edge for ages. I’d love to know how makes those.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Apr 28, 2021)

Shig swedish, TF Aogami Super, Watanabe blue 2

TF white 1 was good, "wave it in the direction of a stone and it gets sharp" kind of good


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## TSF415 (Apr 28, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> This may sound odd, but the $40 bunka that I bought from Hida tool - guessing blue 1/2. Really easy to get really sharp, holds an edge for ages. I’d love to know how makes those.



They told me when I went to hidatool that it’s sk steel. Bernal has some knives from the tosa area that are blue steel and they rave about them.


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## Nagakin (Apr 28, 2021)

Southpaw said:


> I’m sure a lot of people are going to say Yoshikazu Tanaka’s Blue 1


yup.


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## zizirex (Apr 29, 2021)

TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF!!!!

Tanaka White 1,
Shigeki Tanaka GinSan,
Takamura VG10,R2 & SKD.
Hinoura White 2,
Mazaki White 2.


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## Carl Kotte (Apr 29, 2021)

Birgersson’s ht on whatever steel he uses in his warikomi . 
Y Tanaka white 1 is another favorite.


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 29, 2021)

Both TF steels, yes Y Tanaka Blue 1 also. Tosa blue steel butcher knives, I don’t know who actually made each one but they are fantastic for their purpose. I’d want to say Yoshi SKD but I don’t have much other SKD to compare to. Murata Blue 1, and Martell CPM-154.


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## Hamesjo (Apr 29, 2021)

Hinoura white #2 feels absolutely gorgeous on stones and similarly amazing against veggies


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## SolidSnake03 (Apr 29, 2021)

Murata Blue #1, Watanabe #2, TF W#1, Carter/Muteki W#1 and everything Tanaka makes, Shihan 52100


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## Benuser (Apr 29, 2021)

The most unexpected one: C60 @ 60Rc by Pallarès Solsona.


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## IsoJ (Apr 29, 2021)

Benuser said:


> The most unexpected one: C60 @ 60Rc by Pallarès Solsona.


Agree with this


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## IsoJ (Apr 29, 2021)

Couple others: Sakai kikumori SK tool steel, Isasmedjan 26c3, BlackLotusKnives 52100


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## Jason183 (Apr 29, 2021)

Haven’t tried as many yet. Both Y. Tanaka and Carter white #1 are pretty good, Y. Tanaka white #1 feels sharper, saving for more delicate work. Carter white #1 feels tougher, currently my main all purpose working gyuto.


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## esoo (Apr 29, 2021)

ZKramer 52100 is damn solid.


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## panda (Apr 29, 2021)

some of these are quite suspect. Watanabe and hinoura feels God awful.


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## Alder26 (Apr 29, 2021)

Watanabe aogami #2 is my fav. I have yet to find a steel that will hold a crisp feeling edge for as long. There are lots of steels that will dull toothy and stay that way for what seems like forever, but Watanabe B#2 feels crisp and clean and _really_ sharp for a really long time. 

Mazaki W#2, Fujiwara white steel, Takeda aogami super are all nice runner ups.


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## KO88 (Apr 29, 2021)

Im super happy with my Toyamas... What about French guys I can say Raquin and Evan are exceptional on 125sc and 145sc and heard only good about Yanicks 135...
Also just heard (unfortunately) Xerxes HT is godlike (1.2562).

What about Munetoshi white2? Stuff coming from Ikeda...


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## tostadas (Apr 29, 2021)

Besides TF white#1, I've been really quite impressed by Munetoshi white#2. The steel on the Munetoshi 170mm butcher is awesome.


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## SolidSnake03 (Apr 29, 2021)

My Watanabe preference is not because it feels nice but because of excellent edge retention even when sharpened at a low angle and beaten to hell on poly boards and bashed through squash and other tough on edges stuff  

actually pretty much all of mine are tough and durable heat treats not so much because they feel buttery smooth or whatever.


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## Lars (Apr 29, 2021)

+1 Munetoshi


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## Runner_up (Apr 29, 2021)

My favorites.. 
TF white#1/ AS 
Munetoshi white#2 
Murata blue#1 - honorable mention. Quality steel that doesn't get enough love.
Toyama blue#2 
Heiji (both carbon and SS are awesome)

Some random thoughts..
- TF white#1 is just the easiest steel I've come across to sharpen. I mean geeze you could run the knife on a 90* angle on the stone and the damn thing will still get sharp. 
- Watanabe white#2 is weird.. Not very pleasurable to sharpen with kind of poor feedback.. Doesn't seem to love high grit stones. But it holds a working edge forever? 
- Yes, Yoshikazu Tanaka's blue#1 is incredible (really the guy is a freak talent and excellent with many steels), but he should get more love for his white#1, which is also really quite nice. 
- In my opinion/for my own use Heiji's treatment of the iwasaki steel is superior when compared to Shigefusa.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Apr 29, 2021)

TF Aogami Super and Watanabe Blue 2 hold the satisfactory sharpness the longest. Shig Swedish gets scary sharp as fast as any white 2 and holds it longer than most white steels I've tried.

The TF white 1 I tried was a bit chippy so I like the Tanaka white 1 more. Tanaka blue 1/2 sharpen really easily and have the incredible buttery feel on stones, so I like them but I still like Wat b2 more for better edge retention off the stone.


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 29, 2021)

+1 Munetoshi, the only white I’d put here. Dark horse - Masahiro carbon, incredible steel for its price range.


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## M1k3 (Apr 29, 2021)

Heiji SS


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## ian (Apr 29, 2021)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Dark horse - Masahiro carbon, incredible steel for its price range.



Just got a suji and am liking it!


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## panda (Apr 29, 2021)

shun vg10


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## Checkpure (Apr 29, 2021)

Shig Swedish, Tanaka White 1 & Blue 1 & Blue 2, nakagawa blue 2 white 2(sharpenability over edge retention).


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## KO88 (Apr 30, 2021)

Hattori Cowry X


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## Bensbites (Apr 30, 2021)

I have heard great things about moritaka AS, looking for this group to confirm.


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## Elliot (Apr 30, 2021)

I will be the contrarian here and say the VAST majority of what has been mentioned would be nearly indescribable for all the but the highest level sharpeners. And I don't mean even the most talented of hobbyists. I am talking about people like Lee Chew and Jon Broida.

Steel and treatment fetish is certainly a part of the rabbit hole, but I would suggest that if you're not buying a crap brand (Dalstrong and the such), you will have absolutely no ability to tell the difference between Blue 1, Blue 2, Watanabe heat treat and Mazaki heat treat, etc., other than what your psychology is telling you. 

Buy decent quality knives made by decent smiths and it's mostly the same from there.


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## Eloh (Apr 30, 2021)

I have to disagree a little bit, i had more than one shirogami knife, that had worse edge retention than your average soft german stainless, minus the ability to use a steel on them.


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## big_adventure (Apr 30, 2021)

Bensbites said:


> I have heard great things about moritaka AS, looking for this group to confirm.



You will probably get some... er... mixed reviews on Moritaka's products.

I have one - fit and finish are pretty bad, the out of the box edge was fragile as hell. But once I flattened the hollows in the grind, thinned and put a good edge on it, it's a great knife that takes a spectacular edge, holds it for a long time, and works well on the board. I would say that the HT feels good, based on that, but wouldn't have thought so after the first couple of weeks with the knife.

Some other people here are much less happy with their experiences.


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## panda (Apr 30, 2021)

Bensbites said:


> I have heard great things about moritaka AS, looking for this group to confirm.


the best


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## ian (Apr 30, 2021)

Elliot said:


> I will be the contrarian here and say the VAST majority of what has been mentioned would be nearly indescribable for all the but the highest level sharpeners. And I don't mean even the most talented of hobbyists. I am talking about people like Lee Chew and Jon Broida.
> 
> Steel and treatment fetish is certainly a part of the rabbit hole, but I would suggest that if you're not buying a crap brand (Dalstrong and the such), you will have absolutely no ability to tell the difference between Blue 1, Blue 2, Watanabe heat treat and Mazaki heat treat, etc., other than what your psychology is telling you.
> 
> Buy decent quality knives made by decent smiths and it's mostly the same from there.



I can tell a slight difference in ease of deburring between some steels, e.g. AUS-8 and White #1, and some steels do feel different on the stones. But I haven't had a single high end knife that I felt was particularly hard to sharpen. There's a big difference in edge retention though. The blues I've had retain edges longer than many of the whites; Miz KS Blue #1 vs my current White#2 (or is it W2, who knows) Shihan is night and day. I do think people hype up differences in steels and HTs more than is really warranted, but it's not like there's no difference.


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## esoo (Apr 30, 2021)

Elliot said:


> I will be the contrarian here and say the VAST majority of what has been mentioned would be nearly indescribable for all the but the highest level sharpeners. And I don't mean even the most talented of hobbyists. I am talking about people like Lee Chew and Jon Broida.
> 
> Steel and treatment fetish is certainly a part of the rabbit hole, but I would suggest that if you're not buying a crap brand (Dalstrong and the such), you will have absolutely no ability to tell the difference between Blue 1, Blue 2, Watanabe heat treat and Mazaki heat treat, etc., other than what your psychology is telling you.
> 
> Buy decent quality knives made by decent smiths and it's mostly the same from there.



Even as a poor sharpener, I can tell there is a difference between steels. Kono FM White 2 (Y Tanaka heat treat) vs Kono YS-M (undisclosed tool steel) had a very different effect for me. The YS-M was a dream to sharpen, and I hated the FM as it was hard to get "sharp". Both were supposedly at the same HRC.


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 30, 2021)

Funny thing, the difference sharpening white 2 vs AS isn‘t even noticeable to me. Higher alloy steels yes, and stainless of course. Choice of stones matters too once one knows which stones to pull out for a given knife. Retention though is definitely noticeable between white and blue and that’s how I gauge the quality of an instance of a steel - how long the edge stays good and resists dulling, chipping, or bending, which comprises several metallurgical attributes.

in terms of sharpenability the only steels I’ve really noticed as difficult to sharpen, more accurately requiring more skill, are some of the super high alloys like ZDP and HAP. I’ve never had an issue getting SLD or AS just as sharp as blue 2, for example. But the issue with the high carbide steels was mainly user error: that I didn’t yet have the skill in maintaining the angle or knowing when I reached the apex, and using the wrong stones.


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## Ochazuke (Apr 30, 2021)

Elliot said:


> I will be the contrarian here and say the VAST majority of what has been mentioned would be nearly indescribable for all the but the highest level sharpeners. And I don't mean even the most talented of hobbyists. I am talking about people like Lee Chew and Jon Broida.
> 
> Steel and treatment fetish is certainly a part of the rabbit hole, but I would suggest that if you're not buying a crap brand (Dalstrong and the such), you will have absolutely no ability to tell the difference between Blue 1, Blue 2, Watanabe heat treat and Mazaki heat treat, etc., other than what your psychology is telling you.
> 
> Buy decent quality knives made by decent smiths and it's mostly the same from there.


I think any pro chef can tell the difference pretty easily. Just to clarify: if you blindfolded me and told me to use a knife I can't tell you what steel it is. But after 2-3 shifts in a pro kitchen I can certainly tell you if a knife is chip-prone, has decent edge retention, is easily sharpenable, etc.

Over time you get to know who consistently puts out good products, who is inconsistent, and who consistently puts out mediocre products. Over time you get to know who does what steels particularly well.

And I think that's the point of this thread -- who has had consistently good experiences with various brands. My contrarian point would be that grind should be added to this conversation. Also that brands and craftsmen are getting really mixed up in this thread. A Shiraki-forged knife is not the same thing as a knife forged by Shiraki Hamono.


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## spaceconvoy (Apr 30, 2021)

Elliot said:


> ...you will have absolutely no ability to tell the difference between Blue 1, Blue 2, Watanabe heat treat and Mazaki heat treat, etc., other than what your psychology is telling you.


They're not wrong about this specific example. I strongly doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference between the Konosuke Kaiju blue 1 and 2 versions (if there is one), or between any solid 62-63hrc blue steel treatment. There are certain steels that seem like safer buys, and blue 2 is one of them. But then they go off the rails and imply this applies more broadly to all steels. The white steel knives I've owned are so different that it's hard for me to imagine even a complete amateur not being able to notice.


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## Jason183 (Apr 30, 2021)

I’ve tried an AS( Kanehiro 62HRC) not as easy to sharpen/raise a burr on similar stone compared to white #2 around same HRC( Masamoto KS, Kochi), I don’t know what HRC rating in Kochi but it’s noticeable harder than Masamoto KS. The KS been the easiest to sharpen out of the 3 but have least edge retention. I heard TF’s AS is easy to sharpen at high hardness, this is why different heat treatment matters. I have to try more AS to find out, my second AS is coming soon.


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## lemeneid (May 1, 2021)

TF has the best heat treatment of all. Never found any other knife get dangerously sharp after 1-2 swipes off a finishing stone. Total pleasure sharpening TFs because they’re so easy to do so.


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## whirlwynds (May 1, 2021)

anyone have a good experience sharpening ZDP189? Tried on a few Henckels Cermax M66 blades and it's a real pain in the ass!


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## Qapla' (May 1, 2021)

KO88 said:


> Hattori Cowry X



What other Cowry-X would you compare it to? (I'm aware only of Nenox also doing kitchen-knives of Cowry-X.)


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## Barmoley (May 1, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> What other Cowry-X would you compare it to? (I'm aware only of Nenox also doing kitchen-knives of Cowry-X.)


Not to argue, but Cowry-X is very similar to ZDP-189, so you could probably compare to knives made of it.


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## ModRQC (May 1, 2021)

In no particular order:

Shi.Han 52100
Konosuke HD2
Yoshikane SKD
Y. Tanaka W#2 & B#1
HSC/// AEB-L
TF White #1
Masahiro VC
Morihei Hisamoto 440C
JCK Deep Impact AS


Regret not getting around to sharpen:

Hinoura W#2
Toyama B#2
Y. Tanaka W#1

Worst experiences:

Mazaki W#2 (hey, what can I say, that particular knife was terrible)
Zwilling FC-61 (in hindsight it was also terrible for such a steel)

Edit: aaaah... most surprising after all the trash talk vs. steel I was confronted to when I first got here:

Takayuki VG-10 was very well behaved!


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## M1k3 (May 2, 2021)

HSC 52100. It survived a few lobster shells with only some slight rolling


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## hennyville (May 2, 2021)

Ikeda Yoshikazu Ao super is definitely king of all steels i ve ever tried
Doi Ittsuo Ao 2 is really, really good
Hinoura Shiro 2
and of course the famous mystery Shigefusa carbon steel


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## Hz_zzzzzz (May 3, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I strongly doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference between the Konosuke Kaiju blue 1 and 2 versions (if there is one), or between any solid 62-63hrc blue steel treatment.


So true. I couldn't tell the difference between my Tanaka blue 1s and blue 2s, although they both feel easier to sharpen than watayoma blue 2s.


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## ModRQC (May 3, 2021)

Tanaka W#2 vs B#1 is day and night and strangely similar too. The latter is noticeably harder, not as « easy » to a consistent burr, sounds different I’d be tempted to say too, but the buttery feeling I was sad to lose when I sold the Reika I was rather surprised to see didn’t change much across the steels. Which makes sharpening his Blue #1 just that bit more fun for the few more strokes spent to it.


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## Woshigeren (Jun 28, 2021)

I'll throw one to this mix - Moritaka. Maybe not the best grinds but I think the HT is excellent. Of course I have no real way to judge other than how it "feels" lol


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## Bolek (Jun 29, 2021)

whirlwynds said:


> anyone have a good experience sharpening ZDP189? Tried on a few Henckels Cermax M66 blades and it's a real pain in the ass!


No problem especialy as it hold the edge for a long time. I sharpen them on diamond stones nowdays. It allows me to use low pressure.


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## Southpaw (Jul 2, 2021)

Woshigeren said:


> I'll throw one to this mix - Moritaka. Maybe not the best grinds but I think the HT is excellent. Of course I have no real way to judge other than how it "feels" lol


Interesting thought on Moritaka.

one of my ways I judge HT is just by how receptive the steel is for an edge, as well as how long it lasts and how well it’s recovered.


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## NO ChoP! (Jul 3, 2021)

Masashi sld. I use it to skin/cut salmon. 10-15 sides a day, haven't sharpened it once, still sharp enough to slice tomatoes after months. 

Honorable mention and probably overlooked in this category; Kaeru.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 3, 2021)

Elliot said:


> I will be the contrarian here and say the VAST majority of what has been mentioned would be nearly indescribable for all the but the highest level sharpeners. And I don't mean even the most talented of hobbyists. I am talking about people like Lee Chew and Jon Broida.
> 
> Steel and treatment fetish is certainly a part of the rabbit hole, but I would suggest that if you're not buying a crap brand (Dalstrong and the such), you will have absolutely no ability to tell the difference between Blue 1, Blue 2, Watanabe heat treat and Mazaki heat treat, etc., other than what your psychology is telling you.
> 
> Buy decent quality knives made by decent smiths and it's mostly the same from there.



+1


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Jul 3, 2021)

Elliot said:


> I will be the contrarian here and say the VAST majority of what has been mentioned would be nearly indescribable for all the but the highest level sharpeners. And I don't mean even the most talented of hobbyists. I am talking about people like Lee Chew and Jon Broida.
> 
> Steel and treatment fetish is certainly a part of the rabbit hole, but I would suggest that if you're not buying a crap brand (Dalstrong and the such), you will have absolutely no ability to tell the difference between Blue 1, Blue 2, Watanabe heat treat and Mazaki heat treat, etc., other than what your psychology is telling you.
> 
> Buy decent quality knives made by decent smiths and it's mostly the same from there.



ehhhh

yes there are a lot of confounding variables especially thickness BTE that affect sharpening feel but most perceptive sharpeners who have been at it for a few years should be able to tell the difference between Moritaka Blue 2 and Watanabe Blue 2 or Shihan 52100 and some hard 65 HRC 52100


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 3, 2021)

I think the stone also matters. The difference between carbon steels is less noticeable when I use a synthetic stone with good cutting ability like SG500 or chosera 3000, but when I use a harder Jnat finishing stone like Ohira Asagi it becomes quite obvious.


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## hendrix (Sep 28, 2021)

Does anyone here know what steel Birgersson uses? It takes and holds a beautiful edge.



Carl Kotte said:


> Birgersson’s ht on whatever steel he uses in his warikomi .
> Y Tanaka white 1 is another favorite.


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## M1k3 (Sep 28, 2021)

hendrix said:


> Does anyone here know what steel Birgersson uses? It takes and holds a beautiful edge.


UB40?


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## RDalman (Sep 28, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> UB40?


U2 #1?


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## M1k3 (Sep 28, 2021)

RDalman said:


> U2 #1?


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 28, 2021)

hendrix said:


> Does anyone here know what steel Birgersson uses? It takes and holds a beautiful edge.


I have no idea, and I’m not sure it matters. It’s excellent!


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## M1k3 (Sep 28, 2021)

Carl Kotte said:


> I have no idea, and I’m not sure it matters. It’s excellent!


Like a nice red wine?


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 28, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Like a nice red wine?


More like white wine #2


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Sep 28, 2021)

RDalman said:


> U2 #1?



i thought he moved on to USB 3.0 these days

there's a profile I believe belonging to the man himself
@Björn Birgersson I summon theee


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## M1k3 (Sep 28, 2021)

Carl Kotte said:


> More like white wine #2


A little bit of Hitachi in my life
A little bit of Boehler by my side
A little bit of Crucible all I need
A little bit of Uddenholm what I see
A little bit of Zapp in the sun
A little bit of Carpenter all night long
A little bit of Sandvik, here I am
A little bit of you makes me your steel (Ha!)
White Wine #2! (Ha!)


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## Björn Birgersson (Sep 28, 2021)

Epic! Thanks everybody


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 28, 2021)

hendrix said:


> Does anyone here know what steel Birgersson uses? It takes and holds a beautiful edge.


+1 and the edge of Birgersson knives make a beautiful sound when you wipe the blade


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## milas555 (Sep 28, 2021)

Catcheside and his 1.2442
Kamon and his 1.2519
Yanick and his 135Cr3
And no one has mentioned the blue KATO steel yet


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## lotfong (Oct 6, 2021)

hendrix said:


> Does anyone here know what steel Birgersson uses? It takes and holds a beautiful edge.



I think he uses silver steel, there are some variations on the specs, there is the bs1407 type from england that has been widely used for straight razors, quite similar to swedish 26c3. There is also the bohler k510 type from austria, that has a tigher spec and some vanadium to it, widely used for puukos in finland. My uneducated guess would be that he uses this exact one but I might be wrong. In any case both are great simple carbon steels not too dissimilar to white steels but with some more alloying for ease of quenching.


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