# Recommending a sharpening machine for a restaurant



## Leo Barr (May 8, 2014)

I have two restaurants whose knives I sharpen regularly here in Spain I am about to relocate to the UK . I would hate them to have their knives destroyed by the knife burners that circle like vultures . I should like to be able to suggest a machine that will do a reasonable job .
Is this any good(Chef's Choice M2000 Commercial Diamond Hone Sharpener) or overkill ; and if it is(overkill) what if any machine would be good to suggest?
In reality they will probable end up using the knife burners but I would like to be able to suggest a couple of machines from the lowest prices to perhaps a maximum of the Chefs Choice M2000 (if it is any good ) so I do not feel I have let them down since i have been sharpening their knives for a couple of years .
If anyone has any suggestions they would be most appreciated!


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## jai (May 9, 2014)

Here at kkf we dont really like "sharpening machines" we prefer to use waterstones. Tbh I personally dont think any type of jig is better than just learning how to sharpen free hand.


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## berko (May 9, 2014)

tormek t7


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## mark76 (May 9, 2014)

Hey Leo! 

As you may know I sharpen for a restaurant with my WEPS. However, this started as a hobby project, and it should remain a hobby, so pretty soon I'll stop doing that. However, they are so happy with the results that they're seriously considering to get a WEPS for themselves.


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## Leo Barr (May 9, 2014)

High Mark the restaurants in question are not sufficiently up market enough to justify any sort of tool be it a WEPS or bench stones (that require a level of both skill & patience)this is why I wonder if anyone has experience with the Chefs Choice or similar tools that require both minimum time and skill to use having seen both restaurants skill levels with a steel they simple don't have the patience the eye for detail etc. I have seen many low end chefs have no understanding of angles after steeling the angles can vary between 20-30&#730; per side .
I had a Tormek at one time and I found it useless for my purposes their jigs are a pain the Tormek I believe is excellent for specialist wood working tools and drills but not very good in my mind for knives .
It seem that most of the local sharpeners specialise in de-tempering knives (I am beginning to think that it is not ignorance but by design that they de-temper) they will pass a knife repeatedly over a high speed grinding wheel without water spending 5 or more seconds on each pass which is more than enough to reach a 120&#730;C de-tempering heat probable enough to not only heat the bevel beyond this temperature but probable the lower third of the knife ; if my Spanish was better I would probable say something but as said I think they do this in full knowledge of what they are doing and are just unscrupulous .


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## banjo1071 (May 9, 2014)

Tormek t-3, shinko, Scheppach


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## LKH9 (May 9, 2014)

> It seem that most of the local sharpeners specialise in de-tempering knives (I am beginning to think that it is not ignorance but by design that they de-temper) they will pass a knife repeatedly over a high speed grinding wheel without water spending 5 or more seconds on each pass which is more than enough to reach a 120&#730;C de-tempering heat probable enough to not only heat the bevel beyond this temperature but probable the lower third of the knife ; if my Spanish was better I would probable say something but as said I think they do this in full knowledge of what they are doing and are just unscrupulous .



Sharpening knives properly with proper knowledge is only for hobbyists and knife-maniacs. Dry-grinding knives just happens in any places of the world, that's not called sharpening, it's over-grinding! Over here, they grind until the knife becomes a sickle. Why are there so many ******* ignorant people out there!


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## Salty dog (May 9, 2014)

Everyone in my kitchen uses this (Except for me) http://www.truhone.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=3

I've had it for about 20 years.

As far as quick wheel sharpeners go it's not bad. The guys know not to grind the crap out of their knives.
It allows you to set what ever bevel you want.
It works best on softer steels. (Perfect for house knives)
You occasionally have to replace the grinding wheels but they last a long time.

It's virtually indestructible. Anything that lasts 20 years in my kitchen has to be tough. (It weighs over 20 lbs)


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## Sabaki (May 9, 2014)

how about a good fine diamond steel-rod and a leatherstrop

quick and easy to learn i would say!

really dont like those machines, they can create the most bizarr edges i have seen


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## mark76 (May 10, 2014)

I recall an analysis of one or two years ago of such a Chef's Choice pull-through machine. It included microscope photographs of the edge, compared to a hand-sharpened edge. The results weren´t pretty for the Chef's Choice machine. I don't know exactly anymore who wrote it, but I think it was Michiel. If it wasn't him, it must have been Clay or Tom.

One pull-through machine I know first-hand is the one by/for/recommended by Global. It is really only for touching up edges, but at least it won´t destroy them.


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## Leo Barr (May 10, 2014)

Thank you for that they are not high enough level chefs to use either a WEPS or learn to use bench stones but I would hate to think of the knives I have worked on been totally ruined . I feel I am letting them down as it is which is why I want to be able to leave them with a reasonable practical sharpening tool that will suit their semi transitory chefs .


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## icanhaschzbrgr (May 10, 2014)

Leo Barr said:


> Thank you for that they are not high enough level chefs to use either a WEPS or learn to use bench stones but I would hate to think of the knives I have worked on been totally ruined . I feel I am letting them down as it is which is why I want to be able to leave them with a reasonable practical sharpening tool that will suit their semi transitory chefs .



I think "reasonable practical sharpening tool" is a pretty good description for a set of whetstones. I'm evil by nature so I think if they don't bother to learn how to maintain their tools properly, then they deserve to use dull knives for the rest of their lives. 

Back to the topic: I've read on other forums that Minosharp 3 works OK with Japanese knives. Haven't tried myself, so take it with a big grain of salt.


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## Leo Barr (May 10, 2014)

This seems to be something that would suit . You are quite right but I have met a number of chefs even good ones that really have not bothered to learn to sharpen I think this would suit these restaurants I am leaving one does very good cuisine but the lady just cannot sharpen last time I collected her knives she was pulling them out of a dishwasher full of cutlery now I at least know where much of the microchiping comes from . 
I think the Minosharp will suit it is certainly better than the knife burners .


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## mark76 (May 10, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Back to the topic: I've read on other forums that Minosharp 3 works OK with Japanese knives. Haven't tried myself, so take it with a big grain of salt.



This is the one I meant, recommended by Global. Works well, but not for bevel setting.


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## Leo Barr (May 10, 2014)

I think I can suggest the Minosharp with a clear conscience .
It is strange to me having followed this forum that I know of so many chefs who are incapable or uninterested in spending the time to sharpen themselves.
I have sharpened for many super yacht chefs that have no idea how to sharpen or even how to use the correct knives for the purpose.
I wonder if this is to do with the new age specialists although I cannot imagine a licensed sushi chef not knowing how to sharpen. 
My teenage son seems to be gathering an interest in becoming a chef I said he will need to learn how to sharpen knives his answer was that he would simple get me to sharpen them for him . 
Is this where we are now?


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## icanhaschzbrgr (May 10, 2014)

Leo Barr said:


> Is this where we are now?


I think it's always has been like this. Not only among chefs, but everywhere. People are lazy to learn how to use and maintain their tools properly.

There might be an easy way out for you: stop sharpening others knives. Instead offer people to teach them how to sharpen and if they refuse to learn  leave their dull knives to them. I bet your son would quickly understand advantages from using sharp knives, so he would have to learn sharpening. And later would be very grateful to you. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Leo Barr (May 10, 2014)

Well said ! 
I have additional interests in yachting having raced on my fathers boats from a young age this has taught me to repair hardware , learn sailmaking , rigging & splicing , leatherwork , seamanship and navigation . I have taught and run boats to me I like to know as much as I can about just about everything be it from hand skills to computers but perhaps I am not typical .


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## mark76 (May 11, 2014)

Just to stay on-topic . Before I learned to sharpen, I had a pocket knife of mine sharpened by a so-called professional sharper. It had Sandvik steel (probably 12C26) hardened to about HRC 58. The sharpener did it on a belt grinder with a 200 grit or so belt. Parts of the lower third of the blade got black. 

How hot would the blade have become, given the indication of the substantial black part? And how bad was the de-tempering, do you think? Since then I have sharpened the knife myself and used it, though carefully, keeping in mind the damage the guy did.


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## LKH9 (May 11, 2014)

mark76 said:


> Just to stay on-topic . Before I learned to sharpen, I had a pocket knife of mine sharpened by a so-called professional sharper. It had Sandvik steel (probably 12C26) hardened to about HRC 58. The sharpener did it on a belt grinder with a 200 grit or so belt. Parts of the lower third of the blade got black.
> 
> How hot would the blade have become, given the indication of the substantial black part? And how bad was the de-tempering, do you think? Since then I have sharpened the knife myself and used it, though carefully, keeping in mind the damage the guy did.



You are yet to see something like this. This is why I'm so ******* furious with these so called "PROFESSIONALS". These people have never seen a razor blade? :knife:




This is the 'sickle blade' I've been talking about.


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## Matus (May 11, 2014)

OMG, that should be punishable by law.


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## mark76 (May 11, 2014)

Yeah, that's bad, lkh. I don't support the death penalty, but imprisonment...

This is what happened to me. The bottom knife was sharpened by a "professional" guy. The top one was done by an "amateur" (myself).





I'm really interested on how big you think the damage is that the "professional" did to my knife.


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## LKH9 (May 11, 2014)

I bet only 10% people of the world's population actually know anything about knife-sharpening mechanics. They are knife-makers, butchers and hobbyists.


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## daveb (May 11, 2014)

10% is way high me thinks.


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## Matus (May 11, 2014)

I am quite sure it is less than 1%.


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## jai (May 11, 2014)

Yeah id say 1% considering 90% of chefs ive met cant sharpen properly


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## Leo Barr (May 11, 2014)

This is what I am trying to protect the knives from or the steel going various shades of yellow through overheating http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h164/leobarr/IMG_0815_zpsd422c68c.jpeg
The guy that did this must have been drunk / under the effects of drugs incompetent or all of these


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## Matus (May 11, 2014)

Leo - seeing that 'professional sharpening work' you linked above, I would say that you should try to find 1 guy in each restaurant in question, get him to buy 1 stone and spent 1/2 hour to learn him how to get the job done. It will not be perfect, but if he/she will keep doing the job sooner than later it will be probably much better than anything this kind of 'professionals' are doing. If the restaurant manager will refuse (even after seeing that photo above), then you can just wish them luck.

It is very honourable of you trying to find a way to help them.


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## panda (May 12, 2014)

mark, did you try using it? i don't see any damage, looks just thinning scratches to me, i bet it cuts better than before.


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## mark76 (May 12, 2014)

Do you see the black on the cutting edge? That's not shadow... that's really black


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## mhpr262 (May 12, 2014)

Probably just some discoloration from the belt, not heat damage. Seriously, if you wish to give a knife that narrow and relatively thick an even bevel that is sharp enough to actually cut it will look like this. The knife on top probably still has most of the factory bevel which was applied by two turning grinding wheels the size of a ping pong ball and which is totally hollowground as a result.

Have to agree with panda, the knife doesn't look bad at all. Now it has a basic bevel that can be sharpened on a stone.


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## Leo Barr (May 12, 2014)

Matus I don't have time to teach them (since I am leaving the country)how to sharpen but it is an interesting idea to offer to people in the future.
Once I am in the UK I need to see if I can find a supplier of stones currently I buy the bulk of my stones from Germany he stocks quite a few different brands - Shaptons Choseras King Bester and a few others 
Although as mentioned in this thread sadly many chefs do not do sharpening although I imagine if you have a licence to do Sushi then it is taught I would assume since a bad edge will spoil sushi very quickly producing rot and giving a foul flavour to it..
What is poor is that many chefs are probable using knives that are less than sharp which can effect flavours although some of the knives I have been given to sharpen have had dried food and grease on them so I would perhaps class these people as professional cooks rather than chefs.
A real chef does the job with love & pride so I imagine every detail has to be looked at.


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## Matus (May 12, 2014)

Leo, seems like your options to help them are really limited. I am surprised to read that so many cooks/chefs seem to care so little about tools that they use. I would not expect every chef to be a knife enthusiast, but I thought that having decent and properly working knives would be of value. If however they do not understand the difference between knife that is properly being cared for and knife that is being trashed, than it is probably a 'windmill fight' to try to help them.


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## Leo Barr (May 16, 2014)

Matus It should be interesting to see if the standard of cleanliness & knife care is any better back in the UK (I move back in a week now ) than here in Spain In general the higher latitudes tend to be less lazy and more fastidious it seems to be the same in both hemispheres from latitudes 40 and below perhaps the heat makes people lazy and generally uncaring about their surroundings .


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## Matus (May 16, 2014)

Leo, one can feel your disappointment, but many could find your words offending, even if that was not your intention.

I wish you a good start in UK.


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## Leo Barr (May 17, 2014)

The intension is not to offend but currently living in an environment with yachts that travel extensively in the lower latitudes much of the worst damage to the environment is caused by thoughtless ignorant people the Pacific is known to have huge floating Islands of rubbish the Mediterranean jellyfish problem has been due to overfishing particularly of the sea turtle the natural predator of the jellyfish.
The natives certainly here will tip their rubbish anywhere rather than in the right place their excuse when questioned is that it keeps other people employed this can also be seen throughout countries in lower latitudes .
There is remarkable little pride in their work(of course there are exceptions ) their excuse in general is that they are not paid enough once again this is a trait of many countries in the lower latitudes . 
There are exceptions I have seen very proud blade smiths in Spain and other artisans be it chefs or builders but sadly this is not the norm perhaps this has become a global norm in my absence from higher latitudes .
So I am not out to offend but merely an observation I am always ready to praise someone that does their trade with love or people that care for our environment .
One of the finest knife makers probable in Spain is located here in Mallorca they produce top class hunting knives http://www.2gknives.com/index.php/en/

So my sincerest apologies to anyone that I have offended. But what is the answer do we ignore it and allow low standards and lack of responsibility to our environment or do we offend a few people ?


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 4, 2014)

A knife, a stone, freehand skills all you need. Best way to sharpen a kitchen knife no need to spend a lot of money on sharpening equipment. A little freehand skill goes a long way. Just some motor skill & hand eye coordination and it is teachable.


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## Umberto (Jun 4, 2014)

Let them deal with crappy knives and crappy performance. If the kitchen wants to use good steel then talk to them, otherwise leave them be.


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