# To steel or not to steel?



## RunLikeAnAntelope (Jan 24, 2016)

I'm using a few Masamoto VG knives (new to me a few months ago) and just ordered a set of 3 Shapton glass stones. I've read both opinions - use a steel and don't use a steel on J knives. Anyone have any thoughts or knowledge on this?


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## chiffonodd (Jan 24, 2016)

Don't do it. Strop on your highest grit stone or get an actual strop.


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## ecchef (Jan 24, 2016)

:no: A ceramic or borosilicate rod _maybe_, but no steels or diamond honing rods.


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## zitangy (Jan 24, 2016)

I do it, its a quick way to break the curl due to contact with the cutting board (so I imagine) with either a 800 grit or 1600 Grit . .. after all , sharpening is all about steel removal and refining is all about very little steel removal and chase for the Apex. any abrasive material and grit has its appropriate use under the given circumstances.

A rod offer s a much smaller surface contact area and as we are only looking for a tiny tiny bit of steel removal... do mind yr pressure... a hard stroke may just induce the curl on teh other side. I do a few normal strokes per side, to break the curl.. I hope, and then followed by alternating strokes a few times with_ half the pressure_ adn followed with just the weight of the knife, again alternating sides and it shld be done..

Having an Apex.. it will cut nicely.. but bear in mind if yr finest rod is 1600 grit.. the striations are now based on 1600 grit. It will perform better than say a polished edge with a curl.

Finally, i also use the rod to deburr; a less elegant solution; say after 1000 grit adn then light strokes on the polishing stones...

rgds

D


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## psfred (Jan 24, 2016)

An actual steel rod won't do much for a J-knife as a rule, since the knife will be harder than the blade. The normal use for a smooth or very lightly striated steel is to re-align the edge, which on softer steel will bend. Not remove, re-align. 

Japanese knives and similar very hard steel cutting tools do not deform in use, which is why they stay sharp longer. Loss of cutting ability is due, usually, to wear at the apex or chipping away of steel. The edge rarely bends much, so a smooth steel won't do much to re-align it. A smooth borosilicate rod will do for a J-knife what a steel will do for a softer knife, and can be used with advantage IF you use very light pressure. The contact patch is quite small and even light pressure is exerting quite a bit of pressure on that tiny contact patch. Easy to exceed the material strength of the steel in the knife and chip it.

A smooth steel or borosilicate rod does NOT remove metal, it just stands the edge back up straight.

A HONING rod made of some sort of grit is another story altogether, it REMOVES steel, just like stone. Ceramic, sintered ruby, diamond coated steel, even sharp serrations or diamond cut pattern steels are HONING rods and take metal off the knife. They will indeed produce an edge, but it won't be as good, even, or polished as an edge from a stone. It's very difficult to maintain the original sharpening angle and the scratches will be diagonal or lengthwise, again different than an edge produced by a stone. With proper technique, you can keep a knife sharper than it would be without using one, but eventually the edge will become distorted and require a proper sharpening, Japanese or not.

Being a home user, I only use a steel on my carbon knives, mostly ancient and probably around RC56 or so. Keeps my Mom's K-Bar "petty" razor sharp for cutting up chickens. If my Tojiro starts to act less than perfect, I strop it on a dry 6k stone.

Peter


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## chiffonodd (Jan 24, 2016)

psfred said:


> Keeps my Mom's K-Bar "petty" razor sharp for cutting up chickens.



That is one of the more bad*ss things I've read lol


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## psfred (Jan 24, 2016)

K-Bar made kitchen cutlery for a brief time in the late 40's after WWII contracts ran out. Nice stuff if you can find it, very high quality carbon steel, in my case chrome plated.

Mon and Dad got married in 1951, so it was still around then, but was discontinued later when K-Bar got Korean War contracts for military knives and bayonets. 

Peter


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## RunLikeAnAntelope (Jan 24, 2016)

ecchef said:


> :no: A ceramic or borosilicate rod _maybe_, but no steels or diamond honing rods.



Yes, I should have stated in my OP that this is my understanding - ceramic or borosilicate would be the only options if this was to be done at all. It has interesting to hear the varying opinions.


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## easy13 (Jan 24, 2016)

I have no qualms with a few passes on a Mac Black while at work to refresh an edge that is losing its bite


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## skyorbital (Jan 26, 2016)

I use a ceramic rod to keep an edge going at work before I can take my knives home to sharpen properly on water stones, I think it has a place but should be used with care and patience as otherwise they can do more harm than good.


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## richard (Jan 26, 2016)

I've used both ceramic rod and stropping on my fine stone, currently using the later more (also cause I'm using PM steel knives more often). But IIRC, the Masamoto VG specifically should respond pretty well to steeling. It's not as hard (around HRC 58-59) as the harder J knives often discussed here.


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## IndoorOutdoorCook (Jan 26, 2016)

I'm against even ceramic rods. Then again my main knife is 63 HRC. Even with light pressure it still chips on those things and then I have to spend MORE time sharpening on stones


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## skewed (Jan 27, 2016)

In a commercial setting using mostly >60 HRC knives, I sparingly use a Idahone ceramic rod (~1200?) and only when I am being lazy. The oohps, I forgot to touch up my knives last night type of deal. I always regret doing so because I usually have to drop down to a 1200 grit stone to pretty much reset the bevel instead of just a touch up on a 6k stone. For me it is a love hate type of thing. I love it since I can be lazy now and then but hate it when I have to spend the extra time later. I really haven't had much mirco chipping with the rod but then again I don't use very extreme bevels due to the crappy poly board at work.

tl;dr: rods or especially steels are best to avoid with high HRC knives but nice to have just in case.


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## panda (Jan 28, 2016)

Mac black is the shiz


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## dominasia (Jan 30, 2016)

I was looking at a lower end Wusthof steel and their site claimed it was 65 hrc. Suitable for most Jknives. If it's hard and polished steel i don't see a problem. Beware the aggressive lower grit steels, and that goes for ceramics too. F Dick do some good polished steels, but you have to pay for them. Their cheap and cheerful "packers" steel is probably a good choice and is available at CKTG.


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## wbusby1 (Feb 19, 2016)

My problem with the whole the-honing-rod-has-lower-HRC-than-the-knife argument is that stropping is on a softer material too but it is widely accepted. People strop on leather primarily (at least I do) but also on newspaper or cardboard or balsa.... all things MUCH softer than a steel honing rod. I feel like a honing rod is just easier to mess up a knife with than a strop, that said, you CAN still hone a jknife even though the knife's steel is harder than the rod. 

...is this idiotic? I forsee stropping is NOT honing as a retort but aren't they essentially the same when you get down to it?

FWIW I don't hone my jknives on a rod but I believe that it would work if I wasn't sloppy/mindless (I see others do it)


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## Jovidah (Feb 19, 2016)

The reason stropping works is that both the leather (silicates) and the newspaper (ink, I think carbon) contain particles that actually are harder than steel, however tiny they are.

Also, in a way you're not entirely off about the difference with stropping. You could use a rod with an edge-trailing motion (in fact I often do and it seems to work better for me), which would make it a bit like a hardcore strop-on-steroids.

Regarding steeling: I'm a home user so I only ever use my (ceramic) rod to extend the life of my crappy Victorinox boning knife. That thing gets dull just from giving it a bad look... 
In my experience using a ceramic rod is a bit like holding your pee while drinking beer... It takes quite a while to get started but once you start you keep going at it ever faster and faster.

Used it on my cheapo VG-10 knives before that but I stopped doing it for that exact reason; it was a bit like putting band-aids on a sucking chestwound. Never had any issues with chipping though.


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## spoiledbroth (Feb 19, 2016)

Jovidah said:


> holding your pee while drinking beer... It takes quite a while to get started but once you start you keep going at it ever faster and faster.


Totally offtopic: is this a european thing? I'm lost.


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## wbusby1 (Feb 19, 2016)

OH! who knew! Glad to be informed!


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## Jovidah (Feb 19, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Totally offtopic: is this a european thing? I'm lost.



Maybe it's just me? When I drink my bladder is like a can of Pringles... once you pop... 
Must be my bladder struggling with gender-issues.


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## skewed (Feb 19, 2016)

Jovidah said:


> Maybe it's just me? When I drink my bladder is like a can of Pringles... once you pop...
> Must be my bladder struggling with gender-issues.



I am much the same. The first whiz after drinking a few beers seems to diminish my ability to hold it very long. Just a question do you bicycle quite a bit? A few cycling friends experience the same issue.

Cheers,
rj


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## brainsausage (Feb 19, 2016)

I find the softness myth to be complete BS in my experience. As long as you use a very effing light touch, an old school steel can bring back a workable edge. It can very easily be abused and cause problems down the road, but isn't bad when used properly. I've had the best luck with ceramic overall, but will use the house grooved steel when I'm on day 6 of 12 hour shifts. 

Diamond rods are for losers though.


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## panda (Feb 19, 2016)

White steel + 2k ceramic 'steel' = win for pro kitchen use


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## brainsausage (Feb 19, 2016)

panda said:


> White steel + 2k ceramic 'steel' = win for pro kitchen use



That was my old combo&#128077;


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## skewed (Feb 19, 2016)

panda said:


> White steel + 2k ceramic 'steel' = win for pro kitchen use



Which 2k steel would that be?


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## panda (Feb 20, 2016)

mac black

it's my new combo now josh


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## skewed (Feb 20, 2016)

panda said:


> mac black
> 
> it's my new combo now josh



I figured as much... I have been meaning to give it a try for quite some time now.

Thanks for the heads up!


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## Jovidah (Feb 20, 2016)

skewed said:


> I am much the same. The first whiz after drinking a few beers seems to diminish my ability to hold it very long. Just a question do you bicycle quite a bit? A few cycling friends experience the same issue.
> 
> Cheers,
> rj


If that's true you may be on to something there... I'm Dutch, so yes, I and almost everyone I know use our bicycles almost religiously.


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## skewed (Feb 20, 2016)

Jovidah said:


> If that's true you may be on to something there... I'm Dutch, so yes, I and almost everyone I know use our bicycles almost religiously.



I really think this is a thing. My friends and I joked about it regularly. I would imagine most Dutch people experience this issue due to being avid cyclist.


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## daveb (Feb 21, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Totally offtopic: is this a european thing? I'm lost.



I'm not sure what it means either - but it does involve beer....


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## RunLikeAnAntelope (Feb 21, 2016)

skewed said:


> I really think this is a thing. My friends and I joked about it regularly. I would imagine most Dutch people experience this issue due to being avid cyclist.



I think this is a thing with most everyone. We've always called it "breaking the seal". 

I love how this thread somehow now includes discussion regarding drinking and peeing. :biggrin:

Oh and maybe I need a Mac Black.


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## spoiledbroth (Feb 22, 2016)

Is the mac black finer than the white idahone?

no comments about the offtopic "pissery"  thanks for the explanation lads:


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## skewed (Feb 22, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Is the mac black finer than the white idahone?
> 
> no comments about the offtopic "pissery"  thanks for the explanation lads:



I was lead to believe the Idahone was around 1200 which upon using seems about right.

BTW- Eddy always attacked!


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## Jovidah (Feb 25, 2016)

RunLikeAnAntelope said:


> I think this is a thing with most everyone. We've always called it "breaking the seal".
> 
> I love how this thread somehow now includes discussion regarding drinking and peeing. :biggrin:
> 
> Oh and maybe I need a Mac Black.



The link isn't that far-fetched, considering discussions on sharpening can easily devolve into a pissing contest.


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## dblnickels (Feb 25, 2016)

Used to use the Idahone more but now strop on gesshin 2k with the j hook move 
on the tip. Thanks Jon!


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## Furminati (Feb 25, 2016)

I've got a black ceramic from knifewear which is pretty good ! I think it's 8000 grit or something.. I'll use that at work if I have to.


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