# What's your go to for finishing German Steels?



## branwell (Feb 7, 2021)

Hay Guys,

With knives like Henckels and Victoronox for general kitchen use, what's your go to finishing stone?

I've tried the Bestor 1.2k, King 1.2k Nubatama 1.5k Platinum, Shapton Glass 2K, Chosera 3K, King 4k, Green Brick, and an Aoto.

Feels to me when I get past 3K, the edge cant maintain the magic.

Of the stones I have, the SG 2K seems to leave the best all round edge.

What are you guys liking on that sort of steel?


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## daveb (Feb 7, 2021)

Currently using SP1000 to get, remove burr, SP2000 to finish. Works pretty well.

A Rika 5K will leave a nicely polished edge but won't really do anything to further sharpen the edge.


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## IsoJ (Feb 7, 2021)

Naniwa 400/Shapton glass 320 followed by Naniwa800/Shapton glass1k


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## panda (Feb 7, 2021)

don't even bother going past 1k. gesshin 600 is great stone for soft stainless.


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## branwell (Feb 7, 2021)

panda said:


> don't even bother going past 1k. gesshin 600 is great stone for soft stainless.


I have a Gesshin 600. Never though to try it as a finisher. Will give it a go!!


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 7, 2021)

Norton India Fine or Soft Arkansas. Both followed by light stropping on bare leather.


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## ian (Feb 7, 2021)

Cho 800 then cardboard. Sometimes I’ll do a couple final deburring edge leading strokes on Gessh 3k if I’m feeling fancy.


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## M1k3 (Feb 7, 2021)

SG500 followed by cardboard strop if feeling fancy.


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## Benuser (Feb 7, 2021)

panda said:


> don't even bother going past 1k. gesshin 600 is great stone for soft stainless.


There’s a good reason not to polish a soft German AKA Krupp's 4116. The matrix is weak, a high grit stone will weaken it further while the carbides get intact and are likely to break out. Edge instability to be expected. So, keep it coarse.


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## JDC (Feb 7, 2021)

SP1000 then a light debur on an Aizu or Uchigumori.


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## Doffen (Feb 7, 2021)

Chosera 800 is my choice. 
If I want, strop on Aizu. 
But not necessary. Light stropping on the Chosera give me a good edge.


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## Qapla' (Feb 7, 2021)

JNS Matsukusuyama 300, followed by Naniwa Pro 800.


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## spaceconvoy (Feb 7, 2021)

JDC said:


> SP1000 then a light debur on an Aizu or Uchigumori.





Doffen said:


> Chosera 800 is my choice.
> If I want, strop on Aizu.


I'm noticing a pattern... I usually sharpen on a GS500 then deburr on an Ikarashi


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 7, 2021)

Some kind of 1000 or 2000 then a deburr on a finer stone. I think the best edge I ever got on one of these I sharpened on a Gesshin 400;and then deburred on a jnat, but that was early on so it might have been my technique and any coarse/fine combo would have worked as well. Definitely sharpening like a Jknife through 5k or 6k and a finisher doesn’t work as well, and Benuser’s explanation sounds right.


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## Nemo (Feb 7, 2021)

I use Chosera 400 to sharpen. Then I deburr on Chosera 1K.


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## dafox (Feb 7, 2021)

Shapton pro 1 or 2k.


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## Runner_up (Feb 7, 2021)

Shapton pro 1.5k


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## tostadas (Feb 8, 2021)

Mine is reserved for rough work like hacking avocado seeds. I use shapton pro 1k for the most part. Sometimes I strop on a SP2k, but only if I already have the stone out for another knife.


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## JDC (Feb 8, 2021)

I just love the hardness of SP1k (and SP2k). Initially needed some acclimation, but after a while there's no going back to softer stones...


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## Bolek (Feb 8, 2021)

Benuser said:


> There’s a good reason not to polish a soft German AKA Krupp's 4116. The matrix is weak, a high grit stone will weaken it further *while the carbides get intact* and are likely to break out. Edge instability to be expected. So, keep it coarse.


Does diamond stone change this ?
Up to now I find debouring easier on high grit stones especialy for soft SS. I am not good enogh to reduce the bour on roug stones.


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## inferno (Feb 8, 2021)

i like to stop at the 2k mark for actual stoft stuff like 55-58hrc stuff in 1.4116 steel and similar. my fav is the shapton pro 2k.

however my macs that are 57-58 or so but in aus 8 steel i take to 3 or 4k on the glass stones. they can handle it.


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## Benuser (Feb 8, 2021)

Bolek said:


> Does diamond stone change this ?


Haven't ever tried diamond stones, can't tell you. 
Especially with coarse stones, I found edge leading only very helpful in deburring. Edge trailing you're almost sure to create a new burr while abrading the previous one.


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## TB_London (Feb 8, 2021)

1k edge, strop heavily to clean off any burr, then a couple of strokes on the 1k to put some toothiness back. Going above 1k is only really to clean the edge, always worth dropping back coarser afterwards


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## Michi (Feb 9, 2021)

I normally finish on a Cerax 1000. If I'm feeling fancy (not often), I follow up with a Cerax 3000. I'm not sure that the knives work any better after the 3000 though. If they do, the difference is marginal.

And I hate sharpening the bloody Wüsthofs anyway. Three passes, four passes, five passes. No burr. Six passes. No burr. After seven passes, "where is that bloody burr?!" Once I finally have them sharp, they stay sharp for a long time just by using a honing rod regularly. But getting them from blunt to sharp takes a lot of work.

With my hard Japanese steels (white #2, blue #2, SG-2, SLD, HAP-40), I get a burr after two passes (three at most). They are ridiculously easy to sharpen in comparison, and they get objectively sharper than the Wüsthofs with less effort.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 9, 2021)

Michi said:


> I normally finish on a Cerax 1000. If I'm feeling fancy (not often), I follow up with a Cerax 3000. I'm not sure that the knives work any better after the 3000 though. If they do, the difference is marginal.
> 
> And I hate sharpening the bloody Wüsthofs anyway. Three passes, four passes, five passes. No burr. Six passes. No burr. After seven passes, "where is that bloody burr?!" Once I finally have them sharp, they stay sharp for a long time just by using a honing rod regularly. But getting them from blunt to sharp takes a lot of work.
> 
> With my hard Japanese steels (white #2, blue #2, SG-2, SLD, HAP-40), I get a burr after two passes (three at most). They are ridiculously easy to sharpen in comparison, and they get objectively sharper than the Wüsthofs with less effort.



Might try tweaking your technique, maybe pressure. Compared to your Japanese steels, the Wusthof is quite soft and should burr up readily. It's getting rid of that burr that is typically the problem.

I find the softer steels burr up nicely with edge leading strokes too. Not sure if that will help.

You might just be grinding it away as it is formed.

I know you said you finish on a 1k but not sure where you start?

EDIT: It might also be the angle. Wusthof has begun lowering the angles but for the bulk of their manufacturing history they have been taller than Japanese knives. Maybe with so much more practice on the latter, you struggle to adjust to that taller angle at first and aren't hitting the apex. Just another thought.


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## Michi (Feb 9, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Might try tweaking your technique, maybe pressure. Compared to your Japanese steels, the Wusthof is quite soft and should burr up readily. It's getting rid of that burr that is typically the problem.
> 
> I find the softer steels burr up nicely with edge leading strokes too. Not sure if that will help.


I honestly don't know. I have no problem whatsoever getting a burr quick smart on cheap carbons (Opinel), or any of my Japanese knives. For some reason, with stainless knives (not just Wüsthofs, I've experienced the same thing with knives I sharpened for friends), it takes forever to get that burr. I'm using firm pressure. Not super hard, but not *****-footing around either.



> You might just be grinding it away as it is formed.


Who knows? At the moment, I'm blaming the steel 



> I know you said you finish on a 1k but not sure where you start?


I start on the 1k, too. I don't let my knives get so blunt that they'd need something below that.


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## ian (Feb 9, 2021)

Michi said:


> I honestly don't know. I have no problem whatsoever getting a burr quick smart on cheap carbons (Opinel), or any of my Japanese knives. For some reason, with stainless knives (not just Wüsthofs, I've experienced the same thing with knives I sharpened for friends), it takes forever to get that burr. I'm using firm pressure. Not super hard, but not *****-footing around either.
> 
> 
> Who knows? At the moment, I'm blaming the steel
> ...



Are they thicker behind the edge than your Japanese knives?


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## Michi (Feb 9, 2021)

ian said:


> Are they thicker behind the edge than your Japanese knives?


I'd say so, yes. They are Wüsthofs, after all…


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## ian (Feb 9, 2021)

That’s probably part of it then. More steel to get through. You may be convexing the edge too when you are using your honing rod, or just honing at an angle that’s higher than your sharpening angle. Then when you sharpen you’ll have to get rid of the honed microbevel before you feel a burr.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 9, 2021)

Michi said:


> I honestly don't know. I have no problem whatsoever getting a burr quick smart on cheap carbons (Opinel), or any of my Japanese knives. For some reason, with stainless knives (not just Wüsthofs, I've experienced the same thing with knives I sharpened for friends), it takes forever to get that burr. I'm using firm pressure. Not super hard, but not *****-footing around either.
> 
> 
> Who knows? At the moment, I'm blaming the steel
> ...



Hi Michi, I was editing probably while you were responding, but I added a bit about angle too.

Ah, now, as for stainless vs. carbon, yes, stainless is likely to feel different. I don't have a ton of experience with carbon but what I do, they do respond quite differently. No doubt that is a factor for you.

If you want, try dropping down to a courser grit and grinding in bevels that feel natural to you. On the higher stone, try lighter pressure. Understand if you're happy with things now, just an experiment if you feel like it.


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## KO88 (Feb 9, 2021)

Vitrified Diamond 1k, strop VD 3k or/and on leather...
(strop ala Jons...)
It s really quick and leaves nice edge...


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## Michi (Feb 9, 2021)

ian said:


> That’s probably part of it then. More steel to get through. You may be convexing the edge too when you are using your honing rod, or just honing at an angle that’s higher than your sharpening angle. Then when you sharpen you’ll have to get rid of the honed microbevel before you feel a burr.





HumbleHomeCook said:


> Hi Michi, I was editing probably while you were responding, but I added a bit about angle too.


Thanks for the tips, guys!

I think my angle is pretty much the same as always. I don't use an angle guide, but it basically feels like it did last time I sharpened the same knives.

Maybe the Wüsthof steel (and softer stainless steel in general) is just more abrasion resistant? I've noticed the same issue when sharpening friends' knives (Henckels and the like). I'll use a sharpie next time, so I can make sure that I'm hitting the edge.


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## Derek1983 (Feb 9, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Norton India Fine or Soft Arkansas. Both followed by light stropping on bare leather.



I was just about to say the same thing. I forgot how much I like the edges off the India stone for softer steels. I may use a little compound on leather, or just high angle pass or two to deburr followed by dropping the angle back down for a couple of passes.


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## Benuser (Feb 9, 2021)

ian said:


> Are they thicker behind the edge than your Japanese knives?


At the shoulders, I measured almost 0.4mm with a brand new one. That was with a supposedly lighter Cordon Bleu. An edge as a pure V at 13° per side this Krupp's 4116 doesn't take or hold, as proved by the fact it came with a fat burr or even a wire edge all along the blade. Yes, a brand new one needs some work. A bit strange with knives meant for a general public.


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## Desert Rat (Feb 11, 2021)

I use a fine India for friends and family and a Washita for my own.


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## Bolek (Feb 11, 2021)

Benuser said:


> There’s a good reason not to polish a soft German AKA Krupp's 4116. The matrix is weak, a high grit stone will weaken it further while the carbides get intact and are likely to break out. Edge instability to be expected. So, keep it coarse.


3k resin diamond improved a lot, 6k resin diamond I can not tell ; on two old soft SS knives.


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## jwthaparc (Feb 11, 2021)

branwell said:


> Hay Guys,
> 
> With knives like Henckels and Victoronox for general kitchen use, what's your go to finishing stone?
> 
> ...


I use my chosera 800. It leaves it toothy, but is fine enough to polish the bevel just a tad. The green brick may be a touch to fine. 

How fine is the aoto you have? If it's on the course side that would probably be ideal for a German steel knife. I follow my chosera 800 up by doing stropping strokes on my aoto (around 1.5-2.5k) a lot of the time.


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## Ruso (Feb 11, 2021)

I usually stop somewhere around 1K


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## psfred (Feb 13, 2021)

CroMoVa steels are very abrasion resistant due to very large and dense chromium and vanadium carbides embedded in the fairly soft steel. They can be a huge pain to sharpen for that reason -- hard particules embedded in gummy stainless steel.

Don't try for an acute edge or high polish, either will result in those carbides getting pulled out of the matrix leaving a fairly soft and easily damaged edge. Stick with 20 degrees per side and use a steel to wipe the edge back up when it fails -- the soft matrix will bend making the knife feel dull, and a good smooth steel will stand it back up many times before it actually wears off. Those hard carbides prevent wear.

Flip side is that you cannot get them razor sharp, ever.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 13, 2021)

There's almost zero vanadium in common western knife steel (X50CrMoV15, 4116, etc.).

The large amount chromium only converts so much to chromium carbide as there is not a lot of free carbon. Chromium carbides also much easier to deal with.

You can absolutely drop the angle below 20dps. Mine are all around 15-17dps and hold up remarkably well. And that includes thinning the shoulders.

Depending on the Henckles, you're probably in the 56-58HRC range and the Fibrox is probably more like 55HRC. Soft stainless can result in stubborn burrs and the softer they are the more prone to it they will be. While it might take a little more attention, I've never really had a problem with Henckles and Wusthof. I have chased burrs on Victorinox before but good stropping techniques will handle it.

Also, because they are softer than many other steels, you have to be focused to not re-create subtle burrs while doing your finishing strokes. VERY LIGHT touch and then strop on something other than the stones.


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## branwell (Feb 13, 2021)

psfred said:


> Don't try for an acute edge or high polish, either will result in those carbides getting pulled out of the matrix leaving a fairly soft and easily damaged edge.



I'm not convinced by the whole carbide tear out thing. I've not seen it in my knives made from D2 ( big carbides ) or stuff like S30v ( small carbides ).
It's an interesting topic though. Here is an article with scanning electron microscope images on the topic. If you read the article and like it, scroll down in it and read the comments as well. Interesting conversation.








Carbides in Maxamet


Carbides in steel are often compared to gravel in concrete. While there are some parallels, such an improving wear resistance, the analogy fails in the prediction that carbides can “pop out&#…




scienceofsharp.com


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## psfred (Feb 13, 2021)

In the case of CroMoVa steels with fairly low carbon and low hardness, it's more like gravel in hard mud, not high strength concrete.

The failure mode is very well known and well documented elsewhere.

D2 is nothing at all like CroMoVa in terms of hardenability or durability, although it also will not take a super fine razor edge due to the size of the carbides. It is also designed for very low wear rates in things like shearing dies, it doesn't make good cooking knives. Carbides will not tear out of fully hardened D2, the matrix is very much harder. 

CroMoVa steels are not bad steels, you just have to use them as intended. They tolerate abuse that would doom any high carbon very hard Japanese knife while staying sharp enough to use. Which is all most people care about.


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## inferno (Feb 13, 2021)

i'm fairly certain all these "aeb-l like" (low carbon, low cr, almost nothing else) steels like 12c27/13c26/1.4116/420hc etc etc etc usually have very small carbides, like sub micron size.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 13, 2021)

inferno said:


> i'm fairly certain all these "aeb-l like" (low carbon, low cr, almost nothing else) steels like 12c27/13c26/1.4116/420hc etc etc etc usually have very small carbides, like sub micron size.



Yes and to some extent, no.

The majority of the bulk matrix is pretty fine. But there will be the occasional carbide clunker.

But I've never been engaged in a steel conversation wherein any of those steels were likened to high carbide steels. Those steels, in my opinion, tend to fail because the bulk matrix is soft and just can't support an overly thin edge. And, being comparably low in carbides, they don't handle abrasion as well.

To paraphrase the legendary Phil Wilson, they will all fail at some point. You can chose a roll or chip, but pushed far enough all the steels will fail in either way. Being soft, those steel are far more prone to rolling or smashing the edge so people like them.


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## branwell (Feb 13, 2021)

inferno said:


> i'm fairly certain all these "aeb-l like" (low carbon, low cr, almost nothing else) steels like 12c27/13c26/1.4116/420hc etc etc etc usually have very small carbides, like sub micron size.



here’s a link to a site that has a fair amount of info on many of the knife steels including AEBL. Very small chromium carbides apparently. 









All About AEB-L - Knife Steel Nerds


I've gathered all of the information I have on AEB-L steel, including its history, toughness, edge retention, ease in sharpening, and other properties.




knifesteelnerds.com


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## inferno (Feb 13, 2021)

this family/type of steels is usually the type used in stainless razors. so i guess they should be fairly fine grained in general.


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## inferno (Feb 13, 2021)

these look pretty similar to me at least. Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels W-Nr 1.4116, Sandvik 13C26, Latrobe 420HC, Bohler-Uddeholm AEB-L, Aichi AUS6, DIN X50CrMoV15 Version 4.36


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## psfred (Feb 13, 2021)

All of those will take a very very fine edge -- in the case of razor steels, this is an absolute requirement in order to cut hair but not skin while shaving. I suspect most razor blades are 12C26 or 13C27, or some very similar steel, depending the source. Razor blades are 0.004" thick generally, although some newer ones are even thinner and single edge ones are thicker. Even the original Gillette blade was only 0.006" thick.

Perhaps not ideal for knives in kitchen use, but all steels and good and bad qualities. Food prep doesn't require shaving sharp edges, and in fact those edges may not be all that useful, and edge retention is more important in the kitchen than with disposable razor blades.


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