# Please recommend a set of stones for beginner with Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji - UK



## Triggaaar (Jul 23, 2017)

Hello

So having just joined the forum, I've got myself a Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji (Lite) 210mm Gyuto, which I'm very happy with.

I now need some stones to look after it.

Being in the UK means that what might be a good deal in the US, might not be here. Getting different stones from different makers across the globe could add to the cost significantly. I don't want to spend a lot, I don't have a collection of knives to maintain, it's just the one (I'll also have to look after a Victorinox Chef's knife, but I don't want that to rule the decision).

I've searched and read a fair bit:

I don't mind soaking stones for a while before use. I don't want to permasoak the stones.
I don't feel the need for stones that dish slowly, I'll get bored.
While it would be useful to have good feedback, so I can tell what I'm doing, my goal is simply to sharpen the steel well, so I don't want to pay extra for a wonderful sharpening experience 

I can see the JKI set is well liked, but I'd like to spend less than $210 + shipping + tax.
I see many individual stones recommended, but a lot of them would mean importing (there may be better value options in the UK) and I don't know how to put them together as a set, so instead of individual stones, it would be really good if you could recommend a group to make a set (presumably 3 stones, but I don't know).

Thanks


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## v647c (Jul 23, 2017)

Have you checked out JNS? You could consider his 800 and 6000. Great quality, in terms of cutting speed and scratch pattern I'd rate them above the generic brands like Naniwa, Shapton, Suehiro for sure. They work well for a variety of steels which will be nice for any of your future knife purchases too. I don't know about import taxes/duties in your region but JNS ships from Denmark. You'd need to add a way to keep them flat, but if you're on a tight budget you could probably flatten the 800 on some pavement and then flatten the 6000 with the 800. Also JNS is offering a 15% discount at the moment.


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## daveb (Jul 23, 2017)

A budget friendly solution is to go with a combo stone. The King 1/6K will meet your needs cheap and is pretty universally available. The JKI Gesshin 1/6K is a nice combo, runs about $130 US, in the US. Don't know how much shipping / duties / etc would add to it. If you're not an over the cliff, down the hole, knife junkie, this could be your only forever stone.

JNS has some S&G stones that I like quite a bit. 

Amazon in the US sells the Bestor 1200 and Suehiro 5K which is a nice "set" for most knives.

I've not bought anything from these vendors but understand they ship easily and are well regarded in the Euro market. Clearcut, Japanese Chef Knives, Metal Master.

Don't know that a three stone set up needs to be an immediate concern, esp for a home user. A mid range, 1 -2K and a finisher, syn Aoto, 5K or 6K should get you off to a good start. Don't go for a coarse stone until you need one. (And then buy the JNS 300)

No reason to not use the same set up on the Vnox. At the end of the day it's just rubbing a piece of steel on a piece of rock, don't overthink it. 

Cheers.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 23, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> ... Being in the UK means that what might be a good deal in the US, might not be here....



Since Jon/JKI is only a (really long) drive down the road, cheap shipping is one or two days for me. Therefore I don't have a lot of experience useful to you. That said....

I remember someone recently posted a link to a seller on eBay.uk they said was reliable. Someone else said the Naniwa traditional stones didn't suck (paraphrasing there) and were a lot cheaper than the Chosera/PRO and SuperStone lines. Maybe you can find something in UK. (What does Amazon.UK have?) Maxim at JNS has a great reputation and, as near as I understand the news reports, you're not yet out of the European Union, so his stuff might work for you.

I have had good experiences with Stu at Tools from Japan, but (1) his stones are the harder models preferred by his tool customers, and (2) someone said shipping from Japan had the same problems as shipping from the US over in the UK.

Good luck.


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## foody518 (Jul 23, 2017)

Soaker set here
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...t_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055 plus an add-on 320 grit. Perfectly good knife stones. Plug in your location to get an accurate shipping estimate


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## Drosophil (Jul 24, 2017)

This should have the usual suspects covered, Bester 1200 and Rika included:
https://www.fine-tools.com/scharf.html It's in Germany so shipping's cheap.

If you're looking for a combo stone, I've gifted a Cerax 1000/3000 and used it a few times. It's a fairly narrow stone and the 1000 side is slow, but the 3000 side is actually surprisingly decent.


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## JaVa (Jul 24, 2017)

The JNS stones are well regarded. I haven't used them, but I'm sure with all the praise they get you're pretty safe choosing from there. The 15% off till 29. makes them very intriguing. 

I use the Sigma Select II 1200 and 3000. They are fast and perfectly fine stones, but very different from each other. The 1200 feels very smooth and cuts fast, but is quite thirsty. The 3000 feels a bit grittier and isn't as thirsty. It feels fine and not too grainy or rough. It's super fast and leaves a nice toothy edge. They're not too expensive and I consider them very good value. They don't dish that much even though the description claims otherwise and they're not muddy stones either. They work great on both carbon and SS. I have two ginsan Tanakas and they are a pretty good fit IMO. I bought mine @ fine-tools.com 

I permasoak mine in two plastic Ikea food containers and it's no hassle at all. They are ready to go when I need them and it doesn't take that much room from our kitchen drawer.

As for a one and only stone the the 3000 would work surprisingly well. If you want to save a bit then their 1000/6000 combo stone is worth a look. If you do, get the bigger stone though the smaller has a very attractive price tag.

Cleancut.se (the site is in swedish only, but google translate is your friend there) has some nicely priced Ohishi combo stones, but I have no idea what they are like? 

Like already mentioned, It'll take a long while before you need a coarser stone for thinning and anything above 6000 grit doesn't really add anything you need so there's really no need for them yet.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

v647c said:


> Have you checked out JNS?


Yes, well recommended stones I think, but not cheap.


> You could consider his 800 and 6000.


Thanks. That's £163 + post which is pretty pricey, but at least there's a discount for a few more days.



> I don't know about import taxes/duties in your region but JNS ships from Denmark.


I keep forgetting they're in Denmark - there would be no duties, just the taxed price they show on site, plus shipping.



> You'd need to add a way to keep them flat, but if you're on a tight budget you could probably flatten the 800 on some pavement and then flatten the 6000 with the 800. Also JNS is offering a 15% discount at the moment.


:scared4: I think flattening plates (or whatever they're called) are fairly affordable.



daveb said:


> A budget friendly solution is to go with a combo stone. The King 1/6K will meet your needs cheap and is pretty universally available.


Thanks, that's really cheap, like £30 delivered. I see a lot of people upgrading their King stones (which doesn't mean they're bad, there are some, as you say, over the cliff knife junkies here), what are the downsides to the King combo?



> The JKI Gesshin 1/6K is a nice combo, runs about $130 US, in the US. Don't know how much shipping / duties / etc would add to it. If you're not an over the cliff, down the hole, knife junkie, this could be your only forever stone.


Thanks. No, I haven't reached the level of appreciation of many others here  Out of stock (which is fine, back soon I assume): Looks like $135 + about $40 shipping, + vat etc = £165.



> JNS has some S&G stones that I like quite a bit.


Which ones?



> Amazon in the US sells the Bestor 1200 and Suehiro 5K which is a nice "set" for most knives.


Yeah I've seen plenty of comments on these two (including from you  ) with the Beston 500 (noting that you prefer the JNS300 and JKI400 to the Beston 500, and that a course stone is not needed yet).

The Suehiro Rika 5000 seems affordable from 'tools from Japan'. About £40 shipped, maybe £50 inc tax.
I couldn't find the Bestor 1200, but I see it at Metal Master, thanks. Looks like £45 shipped, maybe £55 inc tax.



> I've not bought anything from these vendors but understand they ship easily and are well regarded in the Euro market. Clearcut, Japanese Chef Knives, Metal Master.


Thanks. I haven't found 'Clearcut' yet. Looking at JCK they only seem to do their own brand of stones, I've no idea how good they are.
As above, I see Metal Master does the Bestor 1200.



> Don't know that a three stone set up needs to be an immediate concern, esp for a home user. A mid range, 1 -2K and a finisher, syn Aoto, 5K or 6K should get you off to a good start. Don't go for a coarse stone until you need one. (And then buy the JNS 300)


Noted, thank you 



> No reason to not use the same set up on the Vnox. At the end of the day it's just rubbing a piece of steel on a piece of rock, don't overthink it.


Yeah I figured I'd get what I need for the Tanaka, and use it on the Vnox, thanks.


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## Nemo (Jul 24, 2017)

Don't know what they are like but James at K&S has started selling some K&S branded (Shinko) combo stones which may be worth a look. I'd be very surprised if he put the Shinko name on them if they weren't at least decent.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> Since Jon/JKI is only a (really long) drive down the road, cheap shipping is one or two days for me. Therefore I don't have a lot of experience useful to you. That said....
> 
> I remember someone recently posted a link to a seller on eBay.uk they said was reliable.


Thanks, I didn't think to check ebay. Looking now I see a fair bit of King, Naniwa and Suehiro (but not the 5k). I can't see anything from JNS or JKI.



> Someone else said the Naniwa traditional stones didn't suck (paraphrasing there) and were a lot cheaper than the Chosera/PRO and SuperStone lines. Maybe you can find something in UK. (What does Amazon.UK have?)


Not a lot on Amazon. I suppose I want to be confident on the exact model, from recommendations here, rather than taking a punt on something I don't know.


> Maxim at JNS has a great reputation and, as near as I understand the news reports, you're not yet out of the European Union


:laugh: No, not out of the EU yet  And yes, reading on here his stones will be more than good enough for me. They are on the more expensive end though.



> I have had good experiences with Stu at Tools from Japan, but (1) his stones are the harder models preferred by his tool customers


Presumably that applies to a lot of his stones, but not the Suehiro 5k, which I've seen recommended on KKF?


> (2) someone said shipping from Japan had the same problems as shipping from the US over in the UK.


It's not that it's a problem, it's just that international shipping for the weight of stones adds a fair bit to the price, so what US users on KKF see as a good value stone from JKI and the like, might not be so good for me here. However, if US users think a stone sent from Japan is good value, they'll be paying similar postage to me, so it's more comparable (although I'd pay tax too, but that applies to stuff wherever I buy).



> Good luck.


Thanks, I'm sure I'll go fine with the recommendations here. I'll make a list of the options and price, which seems to range from £30 to £180, and see what's most suitable.



foody518 said:


> Soaker set here
> http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...t_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055 plus an add-on 320 grit. Perfectly good knife stones. Plug in your location to get an accurate shipping estimate


Thanks. That's the Suehiro Rika #5000 and Cerax #1000 stone. I've seen the Suehiro recommended a lot, what's the Cerax 1000 like?


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

Drosophil said:


> This should have the usual suspects covered, Bester 1200 and Rika included:
> https://www.fine-tools.com/scharf.html It's in Germany so shipping's cheap.


Sweet, thanks. £101 for that combo delivered, tax paid and no uncertainty.



> If you're looking for a combo stone


I don't particularly mind whether it's a combo or not, I'm just looking for decent stones that aren't too expensive.



JaVa said:


> I use the Sigma Select II 1200 and 3000.


Yeah I read that on the other 'recommend beginner stones' thread. There's a Sigma 3000 for £40 from a woodworking shop here. 203mm x 74xx x 31mm. I think it's the same one, although it doesn't mention 'Select II'. Just checked again and it's gone OOS.



> It's super fast and leaves a nice toothy edge.


I've read 'toothy edge' elsewhere - what does that mean?



> They don't dish that much even though the description claims otherwise and they're not muddy stones either.


Ah, that's two more terms that I've seen a lot, and don't know what they mean. Do I want stones that do or don't dish much, that are or aren't muddy? 



> I have two ginsan Tanakas


I know 


> they are a pretty good fit IMO. I bought mine @ fine-tools.com


Ah, handy, my one stop shop. The 1200 is 11 Euro more than the Bester, and the 3000 a few Euro more than the Suehiro. So a similar prive. Have you (or anyone) tried the Bester & Suehiro against the Sigmas to compare?

Your combination of 1200 & 3000 is quite different to most suggestions, as their grit is closer. Why do you go for a closer combo than most?



> I permasoak mine in two plastic Ikea food containers and it's no hassle at all. They are ready to go when I need them and it doesn't take that much room from our kitchen drawer.


Yeah, it's not about the space, my concern is that my wife would have me sectioned :biggrin: Permasoaking is full, off the cliff, knife nerd.



> As for a one and only stone the the 3000 would work surprisingly well.


Although a beginner and not full knife nerd, I think I may be too nerdy for one grit only 



> If you want to save a bit then their 1000/6000 combo stone is worth a look. If you do, get the bigger stone


Thanks.



> Cleancut.se (the site is in swedish only, but google translate is your friend there) has some nicely priced Ohishi combo stones, but I have no idea what they are like?


Maybe someone else can comment.



> Like already mentioned, It'll take a long while before you need a coarser stone for thinning and anything above 6000 grit doesn't really add anything you need so there's really no need for them yet.


Noted, thank you!


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Don't know what they are like but James at K&S has started selling some K&S branded (Shinko) combo stones which may be worth a look. I'd be very surprised if he put the Shinko name on them if they weren't at least decent.


Thanks. 1k/5k combo for £46 + £27 post (medium, 186 * 63 * ?? - maybe 35 thick, the info on the site is wrong)
1k/8k combo for £64 + £31 post (larger, 205 * 73 * 35)

I don't understand the prices on the site - they go up if you select Outside Australia, knife order < 300 or Outside Australia, knife order > 300. And that's separate to the shipping. Weird.


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## foody518 (Jul 24, 2017)

Cerax 1000 IME is a somewhat muddier stone than the Beston 1200 (therefore dishes/wears somewhat more easily). Feedback in use is good. Just think the TFJ combo listed plus the coarse stone add-on would probably still be a price competitive option on your case. You can also pick up an iWood 150 grit diamond plate from there for a decent price too


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

This should help work out what's the best choice, given where I'm located.
Summary of choices, in price order, with stone sizes. All prices total cost delivered:


King 1/6k combo = £30 (184 x 64 x 25mm)

Cerax 1k / Suehiro 5k combo = £67 (205 x 73 x 50mm)
as above ", with cerax 320 half cut = £92 (205 x 73 x 23mm)

K&S Shinko 1/5k combo >= £73 (186 x 63 x 35mm) (>= as not sure of total)

K&S Shinko 1/8k combo >= £95 (205 x 73 x 35mm) (>= as not sure of total)

Bester 1200 & Suehiro 5k = £101 (205 x 75 x 25 mm & 205 x 73 x 23 mm)

Sigma Select II 1200 & 3k = £114 (202 x 77 x 25mm & 210 x 75 x 25mm)

JNS 800 or 1000 & JNS 6000 = £139 (1000 & 6000 = 210mm 75mm 25mm, 800 = 210mm 80mm 50mm  is that correct?)

JKI Gesshin 1/6k combo = £165 (204 x 72 x 50mm)


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Cerax 1000 IME is a somewhat muddier stone than the Beston 1200 (therefore dishes/wears somewhat more easily). Feedback in use is good.


You mean the Bester 1200 right? Sorry for being dumb, is dishing/wearing more easily good or bad - so do you think the Cerax is better than the Beston?



> Just think the TFJ combo listed plus the coarse stone add-on would probably still be a price competitive option on your case.


Thanks. It's about £67 delivered for the combo, and £92 with the coarse stone - while the coarse stone is at a discount with the combo, it pushes the parcel into a higher shipping category, so not quite the bargain it could be.


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## foody518 (Jul 24, 2017)

Sorry, meant the Bester 1200. I think they're both suitable stones for beginner sharpeners. 
Dishing more easily - less desirable. But I remember liking the sharpening feeling of the Cerax a bit more. 

You won't need a 320-500 grit stone on your Tanaka for a long while unless you want to even out the wide bevel soon. But I do think it's a good stone to have for tweaking the Victorinox - little thinning right behind the edge


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Sorry, meant the Bester 1200. I think they're both suitable stones for beginner sharpeners.
> Dishing more easily - less desirable. But I remember liking the sharpening feeling of the Cerax a bit more.


Thanks.



> You won't need a 320-500 grit stone on your Tanaka for a long while


Yeah I figured that. Given the way my wife uses her knives, I've ordered the Vnox with her in mind. She can use the Tanaka any time she likes, but I think she'll prefer using the Vnox without a care. Maybe some time with both and she'll change her mind. The basic point being that the Tanaka won't get over used, so shouldn't need a coarse stone for a long time.


> unless you want to even out the wide bevel soon.


I don't. I'm a beginner, I don't want to mess anything up (James sharpened it before sending).



> But I do think it's a good stone to have for tweaking the Victorinox - little thinning right behind the edge


Agreed. I might also attack some old knives for a) practice, b) to improve them a bit.

Assuming the Cerax & Suehiro are better than the King, I won't get the King.
I also don't fancy the price of the Gesshin combo.

So I'm looking all the way from the Cerax & Suehiro combo, up to the JNS options (which are only really an option due to the discount and free shipping).
Are the out of stock options at JNS a no go for the 15% discount, or is it possible to beg for him to take the money (I know he's away for a few more days) and send when they're back in stock?


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 24, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> This should help work out what's the best choice, given where I'm located.
> Summary of choices, in price order, with stone sizes. All prices total cost delivered:
> ....



I'm pretty sure any of those choices would get the job done well (in the hands of a skilled sharpener.) A lot of the different recommendations come down to preference, I think. (See the post about two types of sharpeners. The "get the job done quickly" versus the "enjoy the process". The first will rate speed over feel and refined appearance. Cost tolerance is another big factor.)

Given what you've said, I expect you'll want the coarser stone for your other knives sooner rather than later. Also, you need some means of flattening the stones. Therefore, I'd get the either the Cerax 1k / Suehiro 5k combo with the cerax 320 half cut *OR* the Cerax 1k / Suehiro 5k combo and plan to get a different coarse stone soon. (Depending on what you can get for £25.) For flattening you can get by with dry-wall screen (a coarse "sand-paper" mesh from a hardware store or home center) for now, but I'd be on the lookout for a well rated diamond flatten plate on sale.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> I'm pretty sure any of those choices would get the job done well


Thanks.


> (in the hands of a skilled sharpener.)


Oh.


> A lot of the different recommendations come down to preference, I think. (See the post about two types of sharpeners. The "get the job done quickly" versus the "enjoy the process". The first will rate speed over feel and refined appearance. Cost tolerance is another big factor.)


I'll try and explain - I can't imagine ever wanting to sharpen because it's more enjoyable that any of a thousand other ways I can spend my spare time, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with it being a horrible experience - that I'd rather avoid.
And time isn't so short that it has to be really quick, but then I don't want it to take an age either.
There you go, clear as mud 



> Given what you've said, I expect you'll want the coarser stone for your other knives sooner rather than later.


Yeah I may have mislead there, I don't know if I actually have any old knives that will benefit from stones. Some are serrated (not like a bread knife, but small serrations), and we also have a few Kuhn Rikons which can probably work in one of those silly push/pull sharpeners (think my mum has one). 



> Also, you need some means of flattening the stones. Therefore, I'd get the either the Cerax 1k / Suehiro 5k combo with the cerax 320 half cut *OR* the Cerax 1k / Suehiro 5k combo and plan to get a different coarse stone soon. (Depending on what you can get for £25.)


Thanks.



> I'd be on the lookout for a well rated diamond flatten plate on sale.


Thanks. What sort of price should I hope to get one for?


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## JaVa (Jul 24, 2017)

I was looking for super efficient stones that cut fast and won't brake the bank to tackle some of my SS and PM SS knives. The Sigmas seemed like a good fit as they are designed for that very purpose (for PM SS). Because they are fast already I thought 1200 could be better for me than the 1000. I would have bought a 4000 grit, but Sigma select II has only the 3000 and 6000 so I opted for the 3000. This set has been working great for me so far. 

My reference is the 4 Gesshin stones i had at the pass around. i loved the Gesshin 4000 grit edge and I was aiming for something similar.

I already had the King 1000/6000 combo. I really don't use it that much. Some times I'll refine the edge by finishing it with the 6000, but that's just for fun. No practical reason really. The 3000 grit edge is mostly refined enough and actually lasts longer in use. 

The King is just OK, nothing more. Feels ok, sharpens slowly dishes fast and is very muddy. I'd look else where.

Toothy edge means it has more bite (like a 4000 grit edge compared to a 6000 grit edge). For instance in general it'll go thru a tomato or bell pepper skin a bit more easily. On the other hand a more finely finished edge will work a little better on other stuff like slicing raw fish, but that ultra sharpness will go a way very fast with any contact with a cutting board.

Dishing means the stone will wear down quickly (and unevenly) as the stone releases material that makes a slurry (muddy) while you sharpen. I believe mud is required for certain type of finishes like kasumi, but for getting a knife sharp it's not really important. 
...I think? Maybe someone with more in depth knowledge of using slurries can chime in? 

If you can make the stretch, with the 15% discount @ JNS I'd probably get the 1000 and 6000 grit stones from Maxim. If it's a stretch too far get the Cerax / Suehiro set. It's a well established pair. If you want speed the Sigma Select II 1000 or 12000 / 3000 combo works or the Sigma 1000/6000 combo, but they'll have some shipping fee added and that takes them to JNS territory.


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## JaVa (Jul 24, 2017)

Think of sharpening this way? 

You admire your knife? You used the word fondled, called yourself a knife nerd etc. but you actually get to use the knife not that often and only to cut stuff for a little while (for a home cook). So to get more time to "fondle" and play with the knife (knives in the future) you sharpen it rather then just quietly sneak in to the kitchen and hold the knives in secret afraid if caught your wife who thinks you've gone "full, of the cliff knife nerd" and signs you to mental recovery institute. Or worse have you sectioned.

Sharpening sounds like a safer option to play with your knives and make it look like your doing something meaningful rather than just stare at a knife alone in a dark kitchen with a glazed stare. Might raise some valid concerns in ones significant other who doesn't share or even understand the passion.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

JaVa said:


> I was looking for super efficient stones that cut fast and won't brake the bank to tackle some of my SS and PM SS knives. The Sigmas seemed like a good fit as they are designed for that very purpose (for PM SS).


Sorry, what's PM SS :O (I think I can guess the SS part)



> Because they are fast already I thought 1200 could be better for me than the 1000. I would have bought a 4000 grit, but Sigma select II has only the 3000 and 6000 so I opted for the 3000. This set has been working great for me so far.


With having never used a waterstone, just from reading here, I'd have guessed the 1000 or 1200 and 6000 would be better. Do you generally prefer less fine than the 6000, or just with the Sigmas?



> My reference is the 4 Gesshin stones i had at the pass around. i loved the Gesshin 4000 grit edge and I was aiming for something similar.


Nice.



> I already had the King 1000/6000 combo. I really don't use it that much. Some times I'll refine the edge by finishing it with the 6000, but that's just for fun. No practical reason really. The 3000 grit edge is mostly refined enough and actually lasts longer in use.


Noted.



> The King is just OK, nothing more. Feels ok, sharpens slowly dishes fast and is very muddy. I'd look else where.


I will. I'll get the Cerax / Suehiro as a minimum.



> Toothy edge means it has more bite (like a 4000 grit edge compared to a 6000 grit edge). For instance in general it'll go thru a tomato or bell pepper skin a bit more easily. On the other hand a more finely finished edge will work a little better on other stuff like slicing raw fish, but that ultra sharpness will go a way very fast with any contact with a cutting board.


Thanks. While searching I found the 'toothy' answer.



> Dishing means the stone will wear down quickly (and unevenly) as the stone releases material that makes a slurry (muddy) while you sharpen. I believe mud is required for certain type of finishes like kasumi, but for getting a knife sharp it's not really important.


Thanks.



> If you can make the stretch, with the 15% discount @ JNS I'd probably get the 1000 and 6000 grit stones from Maxim.


What's a little depressing is that they do a combo set with the 300 too (which I'll want one day), and it's not a lot more, but it's out of stock (it might even include a JNS Red Aoto...?). So does that mean I'm out of luck, or is it worth an email and pledge?  



> If it's a stretch too far get the Cerax / Suehiro set. It's a well established pair.


Just the combo, rather than individual? Thanks.


> If you want speed the Sigma Select II 1000 or 12000 / 3000 combo works or the Sigma 1000/6000 combo, but they'll have some shipping fee added and that takes them to JNS territory.


£114 for the Sigma, £139 for the JNS, so more, but not tons more.



On a side note, my wife hasn't had to cut any food since the Tanaka arrived


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

JaVa said:


> You admire your knife?


Well it is rather nice.


> You used the word fondled


I didn't know I was being recorded!


> called yourself a knife nerd


Well I'd never have said so before, but I've joined a knife forum, which is pretty damn nerdy :biggrin:



> but you actually get to use the knife not that often and only to cut stuff for a little while (for a home cook). So to get more time to "fondle" and play with the knife (knives in the future) you sharpen it rather then just quietly sneak in to the kitchen and hold the knives in secret afraid if caught your wife who thinks you've gone "full, of the cliff knife nerd" and signs you to mental recovery institute. Or worse have you sectioned.
> 
> Sharpening sounds like a safer option to play with your knives and make it look like your doing something meaningful rather than just stare at a knife alone in a dark kitchen with a glazed stare. Might raise some valid concerns in ones significant other who doesn't share or even understand the passion.


:laugh: Fair points :biggrin:

The novelty might yet wear off though, I'm not at the level of the rest of you yet.



Wife just looked over my shoulder (she didn't see the text) and announced in shock 'Kitchen Knife Forums?!". She then said to my daughter, "It's not even a football forum, it a kitchen knife forum - how sad is that?" :O


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 24, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Thanks.



You're certainly welcome, but I wouldn't be trying to help if I wasn't enjoying the thought problem.



Triggaaar said:


> ... [(in the hands of a skilled sharpener.)]
> 
> Oh.



I didn't mean to be discouraging. First time you'll get your knife "less dull". Soon, depending on your aptitude, you'll be getting your knife "not dull". You'll continue to improve until you're satisfied. If, like many here, you get into it you'll proceed beyond sharp and start worrying about pretty too. 



Triggaaar said:


> I'll try and explain - I can't imagine ever wanting to sharpen because it's more enjoyable that any of a thousand other ways I can spend my spare time, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with it being a horrible experience - that I'd rather avoid.
> And time isn't so short that it has to be really quick, but then I don't want it to take an age either.
> There you go, clear as mud



Yeah, me too. But I get a toy budget and have played a little more than you intend to.



Triggaaar said:


> Yeah I may have mislead there, I don't know if I actually have any old knives that will benefit from stones. Some are serrated (not like a bread knife, but small serrations), and we also have a few Kuhn Rikons which can probably work in one of those silly push/pull sharpeners (think my mum has one).



I wouldn't mess with the serrated ones, but the Kuhn Rikons are a chance to practice. (They may not deserve more than a pull through sharpeners, but they are an opportunity for you.)



Triggaaar said:


> Thanks. What sort of price should I hope to get one [a diamond flatten plate] for?



I've pretty well proven I have no sense of your costs, but.... I think there are really three things to worry about in a diamond plate for flattening. (1) how flat? (2) how well bonded are the diamonds? (3) are there any rouge diamonds? Woodworking tools tend to be more angular and careful flattening is more important there. You'll need flat enough. A couple scratches isn't a huge deal in a stone, so the oversize diamond bits aren't that big of a deal either. (Very different if you decide to grind your blades with diamond!) Removing all your diamonds the first time you flatten is a pretty big deal for anyone. Mostly read the reviews. I've never heard a bad thing about Atoma plates, except they are expensive. Jon @ JKI's plate seems really nice and is much cheaper, but for shipping.... I've seen several mentions of a $30 generic plate from Amazon and another one from the store in disfavor around here. So far, I've only noticed people threatening to try them and no actual reviews. All that said, I've used a coarse DMT Duo-Sharp, just about the worst choice you can make and still call it a diamond plate, on some cheap coarse stones and it worked fine.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like you'll be sharpening enough to need a lot of flattening. I'd start with the drywall screen on a flat surface. Though, it's messy, not great for the under surface's finish, and a little more hassle it works. For the under surface, remember those terrible plastic cutting boards that are bad for your new knife?  One of those on your counter would protect the counter and be well enough supported I think it'd work fine. (I used a large flat tile, leftover from one of my wife's remodeling projects, and it was ideal.)


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## JaVa (Jul 24, 2017)

PM SS: powder metallurgy stainless steel like R2, SRS15, HAP40. It's a modern way to mix materials in a powder form with high pressure to make metal. It's away to highlight certain qualities in stainless steels that was not possible earlier with traditional methods. 

There are others here who also like the 4000 grit finish more for certain things. It'll be the same with other brands as well, not just the Sigmas.

You could send the email to maxim. What do you have to loose? BUT he won't answer before his holidays end and even then when will he have the stones restocked? And I don't believe you'll get the discount. So probably out of luck?


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## foody518 (Jul 24, 2017)

Agree with JaVa about the likelihood of getting the 15% on stones which are listed as out of stock. Or else more folks would just request to get things which are out of stock during a sale for later delivery

Keep in mind you're already in the range of getting recommended stones that others have used on their knives. If you're not trying to go down the rabbit hole of too many knives and too many stones, and if you end up being fine with the stone(s) you get, they will last years and years provided you don't start sharpening the whole neighborhood's knives (and even then it should still be a couple of years), and if you use the appropriate grit for each task (don't wear down a medium or fine stone trying to thin soft thick stainless). A bit concerned we're getting into some extraneous information being offered which won't make a difference until you get and start using the stones to develop your own understanding. 
I sat on my starting stones set (Beston 500 Bester 1200 Rika 5000) for a good while and only started adding other things out of curiosity, budget, and other things being on sale/closeout (impulse). Not out of any inadequacy with the starting Coarse, Medium, Fine stones. Only my extra coarse 220 grit could have really counted as a needs-based purchase 

Can vouch for the Sigma Power 1000 and the 6000 Jinzo Renge Suita for being good cutting, good feedback stones in their respective grit ranges. In my personal estimation of feedback (visual, tactile, audible) indicators, I take note of this aspect as it leads me to better sharpening outcomes more easily. Hard for me to gauge if they would be worth the price increase to someone in your current situation vs the lower cost options.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

Thanks 


foody518 said:


> Agree with JaVa about the likelihood of getting the 15% on stones which are listed as out of stock. Or else more folks would just request to get things which are out of stock during a sale for later delivery


As long as they pay straight away, he should be happy  He still makes a profit on sale items.



> Keep in mind you're already in the range of getting recommended stones that others have used on their knives. If you're not trying to go down the rabbit hole of too many knives and too many stones, and if you end up being fine with the stone(s) you get, they will last years and years


That's the plan. I don't want to get the King combo and then wish I'd got better. The Cerax/Suehiro is obviously a good option without breaking the bank. The Bester & Suehiro is obviously decent too, but perhaps not worth the premium over the Cerax/Suehiro. I trust JaVa's view on the Sigmas, but they are pushing close to the JNS (which I've read about on other threads too). If the JNS set was an option with 15% off, that would be tempting, but at full price it's not an option.


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## galvaude (Jul 24, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Thanks
> As long as they pay straight away, he should be happy  He still makes a profit on sale items.
> 
> *That's the plan. I don't want to get the King combo and then wish I'd got better*. The Cerax/Suehiro is obviously a good option without breaking the bank. The Bester & Suehiro is obviously decent too, but perhaps not worth the premium over the Cerax/Suehiro. I trust JaVa's view on the Sigmas, but they are pushing close to the JNS (which I've read about on other threads too). If the JNS set was an option with 15% off, that would be tempting, but at full price it's not an option.



I have and tried shapton glass, choseras, naniwa traditional, super stones, imanishi...and still use a king 1200x because it just works and feels awesome, King stones are not the POS some people say they are, they are not beginner stones and cut more than non-alloyed carbon steels... I use a king 1200 with a Suehiro Rika 5k and it is such a nice set. Focus on your skills.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 24, 2017)

galvaude said:


> I have and tried shapton glass, choseras, naniwa traditional, super stones, imanishi...and still use a king 1200x because it just works and feels awesome, King stones are not the POS some people say they are, they are not beginner stones and cut more than non-alloyed carbon steels... I use a king 1200 with a Suehiro Rika 5k and it is such a nice set. Focus on your skills.


Thank you.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 25, 2017)

What are your opinions on the JNS RED Aoto Matukusuyama?
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-red-aoto-matukusuyama/


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## krx927 (Jul 26, 2017)

Do not forget about the nice option for Naniwa professional stones (ex Chosera). These are really one of the best stones around. They are splash and go:

https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-package-deal-naniwa-professional-stones-400-1000-3000.htm


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## Triggaaar (Jul 26, 2017)

krx927 said:


> Do not forget about the nice option for Naniwa professional stones (ex Chosera). These are really one of the best stones around. They are splash and go:


Thanks. I have looked at those (same site) and it's £168 for the 1k & 5k delivered vs £140ish for the same from JNS, and reading reviews on here it seems people prefer the stones from JNS.


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## fatboylim (Jul 27, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Thanks. I have looked at those (same site) and it's £168 for the 1k & 5k delivered vs £140ish for the same from JNS, and reading reviews on here it seems people prefer the stones from JNS.



You can't go wrong with JNS stones.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 27, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> You can't go wrong with JNS stones.


Thanks. I've read plenty here and elsewhere and JNS stones are always well recommended. My only concern was that the 6000k might give me a finish that doesn't quite have enough bite.

I know the Cerax & Suehiro option would be fine for me, but whatever I get I won't later upgrade it, so I am interested in the JNS set.

I got my credit card out to pay, and the JNS set has disappeared from my basket, and is now out of stock - typical 

How often do JNS have sales?


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## Colorado_cutter (Jul 27, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Soaker set here
> http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...t_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055 plus an add-on 320 grit. Perfectly good knife stones. Plug in your location to get an accurate shipping estimate



That Rika/Cerax set looks like a great buy! I've got the Beston/Bester/Rika set and the Rika is my favorite part. I notice the size is the same as the full-size individual stones, and twice as thick, so the combo is just two stones stuck together. It even looks like you can request them not to be stuck together. And then add on the 320? You should be good to go for a long time. I've used the Beston/Bester/Rika set as my only stones for the last five years, and I'm still very happy with it. I flatten on drywall screen and strop on balsa with CBN.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 27, 2017)

Colorado_cutter said:


> That Rika/Cerax set looks like a great buy! I've got the Beston/Bester/Rika set and the Rika is my favorite part. I notice the size is the same as the full-size individual stones, and twice as thick, so the combo is just two stones stuck together. It even looks like you can request them not to be stuck together. And then add on the 320? You should be good to go for a long time.


Yeah it does look like a good option. Reviews of the JNS gear suggest it's even better though, and who doesn't want 'better'! :biggrin:



> I flatten on drywall screen


I keep seeing that, and have no idea what it means :laugh:


> and strop on balsa with CBN.


Again, CBN? :O

Can I strop on an old leather belt, or do I need something more fit for purpose?


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## foody518 (Jul 27, 2017)

Colorado_cutter said:


> That Rika/Cerax set looks like a great buy! I've got the Beston/Bester/Rika set and the Rika is my favorite part. I notice the size is the same as the full-size individual stones, and twice as thick, so the combo is just two stones stuck together. It even looks like you can request them not to be stuck together. And then add on the 320? You should be good to go for a long time. I've used the Beston/Bester/Rika set as my only stones for the last five years, and I'm still very happy with it. I flatten on drywall screen and strop on balsa with CBN.



Yep. If I'd known about this set and price when getting my first stone set I probably would have sprung for this


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 27, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> ... [drywall screen]
> 
> I keep seeing that, and have no idea what it means :laugh: ....



Drywall: aka sheet rock, plaster board, is an interior wall material in the US. You must have it, but I don't know what you call it. It comes in 4 x 8, 4 x 12, and I think, 4 x 16 sheet to hang on studs to create an interior wall surface.

Screen: the mesh "sand paper" used to smooth the seams between panels to prep for painting or other finishing.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 27, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> Drywall: aka sheet rock, plaster board, is an interior wall material in the US. You must have it, but I don't know what you call it.


Yeah, we call it plaster board, and probably drywall too, although it's really soft so I couldn't imagine try to flatten a block of stone on it :scratchhead:



> Screen: the mesh "sand paper" used to smooth the seams between panels to prep for painting or other finishing.


The bit we use to join sheets of plasterboard is called plasterboard scrim, made of fibreglass. You wouldn't paint it, it's to plaster on top off and prevent cracking. Is that the stuff you mean? And if so, do you just rub the stone on the scrim?


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 27, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Yeah, we call it plaster board, and probably drywall too, although it's really soft so I couldn't imagine try to flatten a block of stone on it :scratchhead:
> 
> The bit we use to join sheets of plasterboard is called plasterboard scrim, made of fibreglass. You wouldn't paint it, it's to plaster on top off and prevent cracking. Is that the stuff you mean? And if so, do you just rub the stone on the scrim?



Argh! No, and I have no idea what you'd call what I mean. (Insert George Bernard Shaw quote here.)

We hang the dry wall sheets, reinforce the seams with tape (used to be heavy paper, now fiberglass? ), and then "mud" the taped seams. ("Mud" has got to be a type of plaster of some sort.) Then you sand the seams smooth. As you say its all soft, so regular sandpaper lasts about 1 & 1/2 swipes. Hence drywall screen. Its a tough sanding mesh which lets out the dust instead of clogging.

You probably should have just ordered a diamond flattening plate. At this point the money would been worth preventing the confusion.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 28, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> You probably should have just ordered a diamond flattening plate. At this point the money would been worth preventing the confusion.


 If I ended up with the JNS set, I think I'd use the 300 to flatten the others, not that they need much flattening by the sounds of it. If I get the cerax/suehiro, maybe I can use the 320 cerax to keep the others flat?


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## foody518 (Jul 28, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> If I ended up with the JNS set, I think I'd use the 300 to flatten the others, not that they need much flattening by the sounds of it. If I get the cerax/suehiro, maybe I can use the 320 cerax to keep the others flat?



I'm not thrilled with this approach though it can be done. Make sure to do this under running water. My personal thought is there is a possibility of grit contamination especially with the soaker stones with are somewhat more porous. My Suehiro Rika almost certainly has some stray low grit in it (from being stored for months in a tub with various lower grit stones and some laziness getting all the grit washed off each stone) which is showing in use


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## Triggaaar (Jul 28, 2017)

foody518 said:


> I'm not thrilled with this approach though it can be done.


I may be wrong, but I think I read Maksim suggesting it.


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## palyujl (Jul 28, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> If I ended up with the JNS set, I think I'd use the 300 to flatten the others, not that they need much flattening by the sounds of it. If I get the cerax/suehiro, maybe I can use the 320 cerax to keep the others flat?



flat stone on the concrete floor best way


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## foody518 (Jul 28, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> I may be wrong, but I think I read Maksim suggesting it.



For finer naturals, or for synthetics? The finer naturals are not porous


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## Triggaaar (Jul 28, 2017)

foody518 said:


> For finer naturals, or for synthetics? The finer naturals are not porous


For the JNS 300 and others in that range, but I could have been mistaken.


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## Talim (Jul 28, 2017)

Just get an atoma 140. It'll be cheaper and easier on the long run.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 28, 2017)

Talim said:


> Just get an atoma 140. It'll be cheaper and easier on the long run.


Expensive, no?


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## foody518 (Jul 28, 2017)

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...roduct_info&cPath=335_462_463&products_id=852 Probably a bit over $50 when you include shipping. Another reason why I recommended the TFJ bundle


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