# New to the Game



## Karl Dial (Nov 18, 2021)

1) Is this a good plan for periodic sharpening? 
Arashiyama 1000 -> Chosera Pro 3000 -> Shapton 8000 -> CKTG Bovine Strop with green compound
Looking at purchasing the Arashiyama and Chosera (this is the new version without the wooden base). Bought the Shapton several weeks back. It is like glass.

2) How about right out of the box? Do you first test it out or do you automatically touch it with say the Shapton 8000?

3) How often do you sharpen/strop? How often do you strop only?

Any advice for a newbie would be greatly appreciated?


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## Nemo (Nov 18, 2021)

What are you sharpening?

For a gyuto, my sharpening regimen goes something like:

1) When the edge loses a little bite, I might try stopping on hard felt or balsa loaded with 1 or 3 micron diamond. I've never had much luck stropping on flexible media such as leather. You could try using VERY light (no more than the weight of the knife) pressure on a dry very fine (6-10k) stone instead. I sometimes do this edge leading but you will need good angle control for this.

2) When this no longer refreshes the edge in a couple of strokes (or when the resulting edge deteriorates quickly), I touch up on a fine stone (I use Chosera 3k, which is a JIS 4k is equivalent).

3) When this no longer creates a burr within a few strokes (or when the resulting edge deteriorates quickly), I move to medium stone. I take the opportunity to do a bit of maintenance thinning.

4) I go to a coarse stone if the knife is chipped or is getting thick behind the edge. I guess also if the 1k stone didn't create an edge in short order but that doesn't happen often.

You don't need a 6 or 8k stone to make knife sharp. One problem with them is that you will need more strokes to achieve an edge which introduces more opportunities for error (thus mucking the edge up). If you are using a 1k stone, don't move to a finer stone until the knife is sharp. A 1k edge would be perfectly functional in the kitchen. If your knife isn't sharp after 1k, you won't make it sharp on a finer stone.

Most of the work of sharpening is done on the coarsest stone you will use. Subsequent stones are just to poslish the edge with very light pressure and to deburr.

For Western Stainless knives, I sharpen on a coarse stone (I use Chosera 400, which is around JIS 600), then deburr on a medium stone. The steel on these knives is coarse grained and won't take a fine polish.


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## Karl Dial (Nov 18, 2021)

Thanks!
Currently I own a petty, santoku and nakiri. Looking at several 240mm gyutos but most are sold out.


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## Nemo (Nov 18, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> Thanks!
> Currently I own a petty, santoku and nakiri. Looking at several 240mm gyutos but most are sold out.


Same sharpening progression for these.

More important than the profile is the steel and the maker.

The only knives that I would take to 6, 8 or even 12k would be those for slicing delicate protein such as thin slices of sashimi. And then you are probably talking a simple carbon steel yanagiba (which is a somewhat different sharpening technique).


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## MowgFace (Nov 18, 2021)

Nemo said:


> What are you sharpening?
> 
> For a gyuto, my sharpening regimen goes something like:
> 
> ...



My process is basically identical to Nemo's. Though, I dont mess with strops and sprays, so my step "1" would be Nemo's step 2.

Regarding using the OOtB edge, i ususally use the OOtB edge for a week or so to understand what type of edge comes from a given maker and also so i can judge the "Not-Fresh-Edge" cutting feel right out of the box. I almost always hit my medium grit stone (Gesshin 2K) then finisher (3-5K) for first time sharpenings.


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## Karl Dial (Nov 18, 2021)

So it sounds like I basically wasted $60 on my Shap8000. I am looking at a 1000 and 3000. Do you guys recommend Arashiyama or Cerax as my 1000 and Chosera as my 3000?


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## tostadas (Nov 18, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> Thanks!
> Currently I own a petty, santoku and nakiri. Looking at several 240mm gyutos but most are sold out.


Which particular gyutos are you looking for? There are quite a few retailers, possibly some have what you're looking for in stock.


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## MowgFace (Nov 18, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> So it sounds like I basically wasted $60 on my Shap8000. I am looking at a 1000 and 3000. Do you guys recommend Arashiyama or Cerax as my 1000 and Chosera as my 3000?



It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. 8K edges IMO are best suited for cutting raw fish. SInce i personally dont do all that much sushi/sashimi presentations, 8K would be a waste for me.

I also do not care about mirror polishes, so again 8K is superfluous.

For a long time 1000 & 5-6000 has become the go-to "recommendation" for people starting out. Its where i started out, and served me very well. I have since found different preferences and now follow those but wouldn't be upset if i had to go back to the 2 stone combo. (With the exception of thinning. Only a masochist would ever actually try to thin with a 1K, except out of necessity)


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## MowgFace (Nov 18, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> So it sounds like I basically wasted $60 on my Shap8000. I am looking at a 1000 and 3000. Do you guys recommend Arashiyama or Cerax as my 1000 and Chosera as my 3000?



Regarding your stones, I have not used your choices for medium grit stones, but pretty much only hear good things about the Chosera/NP 3K. I liked it when i tried it, but went a different direction.


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## Karl Dial (Nov 18, 2021)

Looking at a Masamoto KS and Sukenari HAP40 from Burrfection, a Kato SG2 from CKTG, a Saji B2 from Sugi Cutlery and a Makoto Kurosaki AS from Carbon Knife. All sold out. Patience is important in this hobby.


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## Nemo (Nov 18, 2021)

Lots of knives are out of stock since covid broke the world.

These seem to be in Stock at KnS. KnS is a reputable vendor who happens to be a forum sponsor. Great range of handle upgrades if you ask, as well. I especially love the new heart shaped handles with the tapered ferrule.









Masamoto Sohonten KS Series Gyuto 240 mm KS3124 with Saya, Black Ferrule


Masamoto Sohonten KS Gyuto by Knives and Stones




www.knivesandstones.com.au













Yoshimi Kato SG2 / R2 K-Tip Gyuto 240mm


A classic Yoshimi Kato (Kintaro) K-tip Gyuto 240mm in R2/SG2 steel. Basically the same knife as the Kotesu R2. ====== Yoshimi Kato, the son of Master Hiroshi Kato is now taking over as the main blacksmith for the long established brand Kintaro (金太郎) from Takefu Knife Village. Kato-san often work...




www.knivesandstones.com.au





When comparing prices, note that the Aussie micro dollar is only worth 70ish US cents and overseas buyers don't need to pay GST (VAT).

Their US site even seems to have a KS special with an ebony handle:








Masamoto Sohonten KS Gyuto 240 mm KS3124 K&S Special


K&S Special Edition, with the K&S heart shaped ebony handle, blonde horn ferrule handle, valued at $100 extra. ========== Legendary Masamoto KS 3124 is now available at K&S! Arguably one of the most mysterious Japanese kitchen knife for many years, the Masamoto KS 3124 white 2 gyuto one of...



knivesandstones.us


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## Karl Dial (Nov 18, 2021)

Excellent service at K&S. I purchased a Yu santoku with the blond ebony handle upgrade from them recently. Sweet knife! Yu Kurosaki has the best hammer patterns today.
Also, they have in stock a Shigeki Tanaka Ginsan gyuto that I will purchase very soon.


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## daveb (Nov 18, 2021)

Re: Different grit finishes. My story would largely mimic Nemo's. I works for me in a limited pro environment and at home. But. There is some group think in play here as well. This forum largely sharpens to lower grits for user knives than others do. 3 - 4K, maybe 6K for gyuto. And while some will strop on leather/balsa/etc, more probably do not.  In another forum / sub reddit (you mentioned a Togo strop) there may be a group think that goes for much higher grit stones, gizmos, and loaded strops. And neither is necessarily wrong. (Though it's worth noting only one sells gizmos and loaded strops....) As you develop proficiency you'll have your own likes and dislikes. You didn't waste money on the SG8000, but you may not use it every day either.

Re knives. One of my favorite 240s on the less expensive part of the spectrum is the EN from JKI. Laserish tip, more robust body, a little curve in profile. Would be tough to beat for the 200 and change. And it shows in stock.









En 240mm Ginsanko Wa-Gyuto


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The En Ginsanko series is a thin Ginsanko (stainless) knife with stainless cladding. While not quite as thin as our Gesshin Ginga or Ikazuchi series, they are almost as thin. Ginsanko is a great stainless steel that is generally easy to sharpen and...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com


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## Karl Dial (Nov 18, 2021)

Thanks for all the advice!


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 18, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> 1) Is this a good plan for periodic sharpening?
> Arashiyama 1000 -> Chosera Pro 3000 -> Shapton 8000 -> CKTG Bovine Strop with green compound
> Looking at purchasing the Arashiyama and Chosera (this is the new version without the wooden base). Bought the Shapton several weeks back. It is like glass.
> 
> ...



You've gotten good input.

For me, the question would now be, why did you think these stones would be the right ones? Just trying to understanding what you were/are thinking and hoping to accomplish.

I'm biased to Shapton Glass stones and biased against Burrfection.


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## Nemo (Nov 18, 2021)

FWIW, I used to use an 8k as my fine stone but I found that often touch ups took too long and I didn't really find that the edge was any better than the 3k Chosera edge in my use.


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## Karl Dial (Nov 18, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> You've gotten good input.
> 
> For me, the question would now be, why did you think these stones would be the right ones? Just trying to understanding what you were/are thinking and hoping to accomplish.
> 
> I'm biased to Shapton Glass stones and biased against Burrfection.


Ryky of Burrfection swears by the Cerax 1000, Chosera 3000 and Shapton 8000. Maybe I put too much confidence into one “expert.”


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## tostadas (Nov 18, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> Ryky of Burrfection swears by the Cerax 1000, Chosera 3000 and Shapton 8000. Maybe I put too much confidence into one “expert.”


Best is to just ignore everything he says. Hes like the used car salesman of knives.


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## Nemo (Nov 18, 2021)

I havent watched that much of Ryki but from what I have seen, he puts me more in mind of an entertainer than an expert.

If you want expert sharpening advice in video format, try the JKI sharpening series or even the knifeplanet.net sharpening school.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 18, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> Ryky of Burrfection swears by the Cerax 1000, Chosera 3000 and Shapton 8000. Maybe I put too much confidence into one “expert.”



He may be an "expert" in sales but that's about as much as I'd acknowledge.

My advice is to just say no.


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## Delat (Nov 18, 2021)

Shaptons are on sale at MTC, so you might take a look at the SG4000. And maybe the SG500 for resetting bevels and minor repairs. And either the SG1000 or SG2000 (or the pro versions of either) for something in between.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 18, 2021)

Delat said:


> Shaptons are on sale at MTC, so you might take a look at the SG4000. And maybe the SG500 for resetting bevels and minor repairs. And either the SG1000 or SG2000 (or the pro versions of either) for something in between.



My first waterstone was a SG2000 and I don't regret that decision for a second.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 18, 2021)

Also, forgive me, welcome Karl. You've come to the right place for great advice and info.

A lot of people like Burrfection and he surely has a strong internet presence but many of us believe there are much better resources.

You can find a ton of info here.


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## Pie (Nov 18, 2021)

Those who have posted before me speak irrefutable truths. That being said, I will speak from a beginner’s perspective.

Re: stones, maybe I go a little bit of a different path - I would recommend picking up something fairly coarse and a mid grit stone. The coarse stone I have found to be critical in the learning process, as results are almost instant, good or bad. As mentioned, the longer you wobble around on a stone, the more chances you have to bung something up. NP400 is my drug of choice, and my most used synthetic. You can achieve monstrously toothy keen edges with this stone alone, even as a novice (me). Cuts skin and flesh amazing. The general consensus in that range is shapton glass 500 tho.

I’d honestly skip the NP3k, I was unable to do anything with it the first 6 months or so I had it. It’s a great stone no doubt, but pricey vs other options and at our skill level, hard to justify the cost. I don’t have much in the way of mid grit stones, but NP1k is versatile and follows the 400 up nicely. Some seem to like NP800 quite a bit, but then redundancy may set in. 

Also, I wouldn’t call your shapton 8k a waste of money, but may end up being used less often. I only use 5k and 12k exclusively for polishing, but I’d hate to not have them.


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## daveb (Nov 18, 2021)

I had long term loaned a SG500 xthick, SP1000 and SP2000 to a friend. Didn't expect to see them again and am ok with that. Ordered all three from MTC this week. The next day friend returned all stones. I'm going to build a rock garden.....


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## ModRQC (Nov 18, 2021)

Special added vouch towards SG500-SP1K-SP2k.

Although nowadays it'd be more Cerax 1K - Ouka - and then Morihei 4K for good SS and Semi-SS or Kitayama 8K for Carbons.

Then yes SG500 obviously when things are not so ideal, but SG500 - Ouka is so easily doable I wouldn't get to use Cerax 1K. Which is sort of a somewhat softer cross between SG500 and SP1K with understated polishing skills.

Edit: ... with a feeling just between SG500 and Ouka while easily being as fast as SP1K, hence why I want to use it.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 19, 2021)

@Karl Dial below is a link to a thread containing dozens of vendors for both knives and sharpening gear:






Who do you buy from?


Hey guys and any gals - We are working on the site some and we would like to see who you are buying from for Knife parts, complete knifes and anything kitchen related. So I'd like to ask you to list who you are finding good to buy from and a link. This can include our sponsors and any...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Great resource!


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## mpier (Nov 19, 2021)

IMO I would go with the NP800 since it really is more of 1000 or higher any how, and the NP3000 the two pair up nicely together and it’s all you’ll need for a long, long time


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## Greenbriel (Nov 19, 2021)

Delat said:


> Shaptons are on sale at MTC, so you might take a look at the SG4000. And maybe the SG500 for resetting bevels and minor repairs. And either the SG1000 or SG2000 (or the pro versions of either) for something in between.



I went to MTC yesterday and now have six SGs (and JKI diamond 1K + 6K arriving Monday). Very likely redundant, but I got a couple of the SGs earlier in the week and was so impressed that I figured I should take advantage of the great sale. I sharpened a couple of my neighbor's knives today and it's SO much faster to get very sharp with these versus my previous stuff. They also look cool as hell.


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## daveb (Nov 19, 2021)

It wouldn't do for me to live near any of the knife shops...


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 19, 2021)

daveb said:


> It wouldn't do for me to live near any of the knife shops...



Indeed.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 19, 2021)

daveb said:


> It wouldn't do for me to live near any of the knife shops...


 It’s not good. And I haven’t even been to Korin yet.


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## Karl Dial (Nov 20, 2021)

Purchased a Kobayashi SG2 170 mm bunka from RealSharpKnife at 20% off (Black Friday).


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## Karl Dial (Nov 21, 2021)

Been eyeing a 150mm honesuki from Goko (white 1 - screaming sharp but very reactive (keep your towel handy)). I am looking to own at least one of each major type of knife (gyuto (many of these), santoku, bunka, nakiri, petty, sujuhiki and at least one single bevel ???). Anyways, SKS and District Cutlery both offer it and the 240mm gyuto. But the price of the hone’ is like 90% of the price of the gyuto for like half the knife. At SKS, the price of the 210mm gyuto is actually less than the hone’. ***? Would like the hone’ but the gyuto seems like the better investment with this line. Leaning towards maybe another hone’ later. What do you guys think and any suggestions on a carbon honesuki <$300?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 21, 2021)

I very much love my honesuki but the only thing it does better than my $15 F. Dick boning knife is make me smile. I've just always wanted one but the end product is no different.

I spent $60 on my carbon steel honesuki and use it weekly. The only reason to spend over $200 on a honesuki is because you really like that particular model.


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## Jovidah (Nov 21, 2021)

Adding some of my cents.


Karl Dial said:


> 1) Is this a good plan for periodic sharpening?
> Arashiyama 1000 -> Chosera Pro 3000 -> Shapton 8000 -> CKTG Bovine Strop with green compound
> Looking at purchasing the Arashiyama and Chosera (this is the new version without the wooden base). Bought the Shapton several weeks back. It is like glass.
> 
> ...


As you probably gathered from the other responses sharpening preferences vary, and there's a lot of options that can all be valid. If you care about budget the strop is the thing you can cheap out on the most; cardboard, cereal package, old piece of leather, or even doing it on stones or newspaper can all work. 

I haven't used the Arashiyama 1k but I remember Jon (from JKI) speaking positively of it in the past which is enough endorsement for me, and I really like my Arashiyama 6k. I love my Naniwa Pro 3k (its basically the same as chosera) but if I had the choice I'd actually prefer it to be the based version. 

I normally use knives with the out of the box edge as long as I can bear it becuase I'm lazy.

How often I sharpen... not as much as I should. I have to bad habbit of just grabbing another knife... Ironically life was easier as I had less knives. My suggestion would just 'whenever you feel it needs it'. I don't think there's a set interval. Can vary a lot depending upon how much you use it, how many knives you have and what steel it is.



Karl Dial said:


> Looking at a Masamoto KS and Sukenari HAP40 from Burrfection, a Kato SG2 from CKTG, a Saji B2 from Sugi Cutlery and a Makoto Kurosaki AS from Carbon Knife. All sold out. Patience is important in this hobby.


Both Masamoto and Sukenari are sold both by K&S and JCK, and also by plenty of other vendors. These knives are all.... extremely different though. It would help if you had some idea of what you're looking for in a knife, because these are essentially apples and oranges.



Nemo said:


> Lots of knives are out of stock since covid broke the world.
> 
> These seem to be in Stock at KnS. KnS is a reputable vendor who happens to be a forum sponsor. Great range of handle upgrades if you ask, as well. I especially love the new heart shaped handles with the tapered ferrule.
> 
> ...


Though I agree the K&S handles are awesome I'm not sure I'd consider an ebony handle on a KS an upgrade. Mine is relatively light, and I don't think an ebony handle would improve the balance. The original handles don't exactly win top marks for looks and fancyness (they feel a bit rough to the touch), but they are actually really comfortable and practical in usage.



Karl Dial said:


> Ryky of Burrfection swears by the Cerax 1000, Chosera 3000 and Shapton 8000. Maybe I put too much confidence into one “expert.”


The main problem is that he isn't an expert.
More on the topic I'm scratching my head why you'd mix soaking and S&G stones in the same stone lineup. 



Karl Dial said:


> Been eyeing a 150mm honesuki from Goko (white 1 - screaming sharp but very reactive (keep your towel handy)). I am looking to own at least one of each major type of knife (gyuto (many of these), santoku, bunka, nakiri, petty, sujuhiki and at least one single bevel ???). Anyways, SKS and District Cutlery both offer it and the 240mm gyuto. But the price of the hone’ is like 90% of the price of the gyuto for like half the knife. At SKS, the price of the 210mm gyuto is actually less than the hone’. ***? Would like the hone’ but the gyuto seems like the better investment with this line. Leaning towards maybe another hone’ later. What do you guys think and any suggestions on a carbon honesuki <$300?


Honestly white steel really isn't all that reactive at all. Whenever people complain about reactivity on white steel knives it's usually the cladding that's the problem. And especially on something like a honesuki reactivity is a non-issue IMO.
For something like a honesuki some of the cheaper options are perfectly fine, and actually might be preferable. Personally I genuinely prefer a western handle with something 'abuseproof' like pakkawood and a sharp spine on a honesuki.

Unless you are running a yakitori restaurant I don't see the point in spending 300 bucks on a honesuki. I'd get one of the affordable ones (Kanehide, Masakane, Fujiwara, Misono, Carbonext, Tojiro; take your pick) and put the money you save into knives you actually use on a daily basis like gyutos.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 21, 2021)

Great advice from @Jovidah above.

Re: stropping, I recently ordered the magnetic-backed kangaroo + diamond spray kit from CKTG (url will be obfuscated but it’s easily searched). I haven’t received it yet but heard good things here and on Reddit.


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## Jovidah (Nov 21, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> So it sounds like I basically wasted $60 on my Shap8000. I am looking at a 1000 and 3000. Do you guys recommend Arashiyama or Cerax as my 1000 and Chosera as my 3000?


Skipped over this one.
Any particular reason you're choosing between these two? If you're already considering the Chosera / Naniwa Pro 3k for example, the 1k is also really nice. Others love their 800 grit version. Not say you have to buy them all from the same lineup (nothing wrong mixing brands), but these aren't the only stones out there.
It helps if you know if you want splash & go stones or soakers (and personally I'd be inclined to make the whole lineup the same type of stones).

I wouldn't say its necessarily a waste to get an 8k stones, but it's in the 'diminishing returns' territory. Your most important stones are the lower grit ones, and they will provide you with an absolutely awesome and functional edge... so in that sense it's not really 'required'. Even someone with at best modest sharpening skills like me can get stuff shaving sharp on the Naniwa 3k. 

For what it's worth, technique is more important than the stones, so don't get discouraged by all the info being thrown at you!


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## Karl Dial (Nov 21, 2021)

Thanks Jovidah!


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## daveb (Nov 21, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> For what it's worth, technique is more important than the stones,....



This. A thousand times this.


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## Karl Dial (Nov 23, 2021)

Are there any handle shops taking orders for custom handles/blades? I would order a blade from a knife shop and then ship to this handle maker which would custom make a handle, attach and ship back to me. Is this a thing? An idea would be a rainbow dammy with a purpleheart/nickel or brass handle. Just an idea.


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## AT5760 (Nov 23, 2021)

Maybe try Jobone/Sugi Cutlery: Sugi Cutlery - Custom Japanese Knives and Handles He sells a lot of blades without handles and does custom handles, so you may be able to do this through one vendor.


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## tostadas (Nov 24, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> Are there any handle shops taking orders for custom handles/blades? I would order a blade from a knife shop and then ship to this handle maker which would custom make a handle, attach and ship back to me. Is this a thing? An idea would be a rainbow dammy with a purpleheart/nickel or brass handle. Just an idea.


You can also try
PCPKen





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Dustin at RSK








Custom Wa Handles and Saya


Handmade custom wa handles made from the finest stabilized woods and burls we can source, Custom Saya from exotic hardwoods. We make custom wa handles to order. They can be added on to any knife that is purchased for an up charge, ordered here one of the premade ones, or using the contact us...




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@Bensbites


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## Karl Dial (Nov 24, 2021)

Black Friday Update: 3 Shaptons (SP320, SP1000 and SG4000) from MTC Kitchen today and a Shigeki Tanaka Ginsan 240mm gyuto from K&S. Those 3 Shaptons will form a nice progression with my SP8000.


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## Karl Dial (Nov 29, 2021)

Breaking in a highly reactive (white 1 or 2) knife - cooked or raw protein like chicken (blue/purple patina) before acidic veggies like onions, tomatoes or citrus (orange/brown patina). Right? 
First white knife experienced an orange patina with an onion. I used 10,000 grit sandpaper to remove most but not all. Want to build a slow patina.


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## KingShapton (Nov 29, 2021)

I prefer cooked chicken for a beautiful blue patina


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## Benuser (Nov 29, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> Breaking in a highly reactive (white 1 or 2) knife - cooked or raw protein like chicken (blue/purple patina) before acidic veggies like onions, tomatoes or citrus (orange/brown patina). Right?
> First white knife experienced an orange patina with an onion. I used 10,000 grit sandpaper to remove most but not all. Want to build a slow patina.


I don't use fine sandpaper, but rinse with lots of hot water, no soap, wipe with a lot pressure — the linen towel will turn orange /brown, repeat rinsing and wiping until no more stain comes off. Fun to see the colour changing under the tap. Last rinsing with soap to neutralise the acidity.


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## tostadas (Nov 29, 2021)

Karl Dial said:


> Breaking in a highly reactive (white 1 or 2) knife - cooked or raw protein like chicken (blue/purple patina) before acidic veggies like onions, tomatoes or citrus (orange/brown patina). Right?
> First white knife experienced an orange patina with an onion. I used 10,000 grit sandpaper to remove most but not all. Want to build a slow patina.


If you are portioning meat, you can save some of the cut off scraps before u toss em. Rub the meat all over the blade, let it sit for a few minutes, rinse it off with hot water, and repeat a few times.


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## Karl Dial (Nov 29, 2021)

Thanks guys!


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## Jovidah (Nov 30, 2021)

How reactive a white steel knife is depends on the construction; my white monosteels weren't all that reactive at all, my iron clads were (because it's the cladding that's reactive). 
As others said, meat will give you the nice blues, but technically speaking you can just cut what you want if you don't care about the color it takes.
If any yellow-ish patina (maybe rust) deveops you can usually just get it off with a normal kitchen scrubbie if you do it straight away under hot water.


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## Benuser (Nov 30, 2021)

tostadas said:


> If you are portioning meat, you can save some of the cut off scraps before u toss em. Rub the meat all over the blade, let it sit for a few minutes, rinse it off with hot water, and repeat a few times.


With a new knife, I only clean immediately the very edge by cutting in a piece of cork or a towel's seem and wait before cleaning the entire blade after rinsing with a lot of the hottest water.


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## Karl Dial (Dec 2, 2021)

Just researching on my most premium 240mm gyuto purchase down the road. Which of the following would you recommend (or you can rank them if you like) - Fujiwara Denka, Konosuke Fujiyama, Masamoto KS, Shigefusa Kitaeji or Toyama Noborikoi? Several of these are definitely out of my price range but I just would like a comparison. I have read that the Masamoto and Shigfefusa may be overrated, the f&f of the Fujiwara may be less than stellar and most reviews on the Konosuke have been very positive. I have not read much on the Toyama. Also how about the Wakui???
Just trying to learn about my new hobby.
Thanks in advance!


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## Jovidah (Dec 3, 2021)

I think at that point it's hard to really 'rank' knives... they're all good knives, just different in style and weight, and it largely comes down to what your own personal preferences are.

Only used the KS on that short list so a few words on that:
The one major difference between the Masamoto and the others in that list (which I haven't tried!) is that it's a monosteel. Personally I prefer the cutting feedback and feeling as a result versus any san-mai blade I've tried so far... but that's very much a preference thing. Could see other people feel the opposite way. But it may be worth getting at least one monosteel blade eventually just to see what you prefer (whether that's an Ashi Ginga, Konosuke HD2 or a Masamoto KS, or even maybe even just a cheaper blade).
Overrated is largely in the eye of the beholder and depends largely on how much a knife overlaps with your preferences. Overpriced I can somewhat get behind; they used to be far cheaper in the past, and look rather mundane. It's a great performer IMO and my favorite knife, but you could easily mistake it for a 250 dollar knife.

A few things that come to mind to categorize it:
Flattish profile (but one that 'just works'), low blade height, very good taper which extends further than on for example a Yoshikane, light to middleweight, runs a bit long (240 KS = 250 length), carbon monosteel with low reactivity compared to ironclad, underwhelming edge retention, sharpens easy as pie, food release underwhelming.


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## Benuser (Dec 3, 2021)

About the feeling with san-mai, especially with a carbon core and soft stainless cladding: the damped feeling people have complained about seems IMHO strongly related to not freeing enough of the core steel by thinning behind the edge. See it as a pencil where you have to remove the wood to free the core.


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## Jovidah (Dec 3, 2021)

I think I'm the only one really complaining about it.  I can totally understand if other people don't mind it at all.
I'm not sure your theory holds up... both my Takamura and my Yoshikane are very thin behind the edge, yet the Takamura feels far more mushy than the Yoshi. And both feel different from a monosteel. And so do other san-mai knives that aren't so thin.


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## Benuser (Dec 3, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> I think I'm the only one really complaining about it.  I can totally understand if other people don't mind it at all.
> I'm not sure your theory holds up... both my Takamura and my Yoshikane are very thin behind the edge, yet the Takamura feels far more mushy than the Yoshi. And both feel different from a monosteel. And so do other san-mai knives that aren't so thin.


Haven't used any stainless core san-mai, so I can't compare. Noticed with Hiromoto AS sharpened for others how much the feeling changed, depending on whether there was only a few millimetres of core visible, or a much larger part after heavy thinning and removal of a lot of the soft stainless cladding.


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