# your take on natural drugs: weed, shrooms, ayahuasca, cactcii and so on.



## inferno

talking about stuff you cut down, dry and eat or smoke mainly. but also synthetic psychedelics.
what is your opinion about these types of drugs?

i feel they should be legal, buy maybe sold at a pharmacy or similar. 
i first did mdma back in 1995 or so. and it was the best day of my entire life. 
from that point i knew the school system and the anti drug social system had lied to me all these years. 
because they were afraid.

maybe they should have just taken the ****?? what do i know.

but from that time i knew and understood there was a reality behind the "reality". 

-----------------------

the first drug i ever tried was shrooms, actually before getting drunk, this must have been back in 1995 or so.
i was maybe 14. and shrooms was still completely legal to sell and consume.
i did 3g of cubensis shrooms. we were 5. i have never had so much fun in my entire life. and it puzzles be even to this day how this can be illegal. i dont get it.

---------------

weed. i think weed should be legal for recreational use. i have been to amsterdam a few times and everyone is stoned there. and i have never ever seen a fight or even heard anyone raising their voice. at the monument right at the dam square there is always 1-200 people sitting getting stoned and the cops are 40m away across the street just watching. nothing ever happens. 

with that being said there are some precausions to take with weed. because weed goes from 1-11 in potency and psycho-activity. i mean a regular j in the dam is pretty mild, but if you get some super lemon haze or similar, its like 50 times as psychoactive (and good), and if you get a true pure sativa then its even "worse". 
i feel this is pretty self regulating though. 

------------

now i'm starting to get interested in ayahuasca. i dont know, maybe 3 months ago i just typed in dmt in my search bar (for no good reason) and read the 10 first links. 
i have known about ayahuasca for at least 25 years now, but i've always been afraid of it, felt it was maybe too heavy/deep for me psychologically (what if maybe i couldn't handle it, what to do then, when its already too late). but now i feel that maybe finally i'm ready. 

has anyone tried ayahuasca? or know someone that has? i'm not really looking for a "high". because there will be none with aya. i know that. but i would like to know what people have learned during the experience. did their lives improve?? how much? what problems was solved?? and so on.


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## M1k3

Watching Anthony Bourdain do it totally turned me off of Ayahuasca.


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## daveb

Following.


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## ChefShramrock

I like the mary jane


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## madelinez

Probably not worse for you than excessive alcohol and tobacco...


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## soigne_west

I’ll have 3 years sober on the 26th. Totally following.


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## Bert2368

inferno said:


> ------------
> 
> now i'm starting to get interested in ayahuasca. i dont know, maybe 3 months ago i just typed in dmt in my search bar (for no good reason) and read the 10 first links.
> i have known about ayahuasca for at least 25 years now, but i've always been afraid of it, felt it was maybe too heavy/deep for me psychologically (what if maybe i couldn't handle it, what to do then, when its already too late). but now i feel that maybe finally i'm ready.



Acid is like a long, strange journey.

DMT is like getting shot out of a cannon.

Good, bad or ugly, it will be over pretty quickly, but it might feel like it was a lot longer if it's not showing you happy things. There is some anecdotal evidence that people who have other mental health issues such as schizophrenia may have them exacerbated by the experience.

Reading about it won't really prepare you. Experience with the other stuff that kids will do for fun (and then still want to do again next weekend) is not strictly relevant. There is a good reason this one has seldom been in the party drug rotation- It isn't a big earner, not a lot of frequent fliers. And some good reasons it is still being used by people occasionally too. See some of the early 1960s studies on using psychedelics to treat people with intractable issues. It's probably less of a jolt than ECT, but you will REMEMBER it, unlike getting your brain fried with electricity.

Good luck, do read the material on safety and MAO inhibitors, do have another person who knows what you are doing present (and straight).

Disclaimer: I, of course, have never used any illegal drugs. I mean, man, that would have been illegal.


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## inferno

M1k3 said:


> Watching Anthony Bourdain do it totally turned me off of Ayahuasca.



i feel aya is one of the most useful things try try in your life. but then i tried almost all of the rest of them recreationally. that being said. i only like weed. yeah i said it. weed is my preferred drug. never disappoints. you know what you get.


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## LostHighway

I don't think the subject permits easy blanket answers. Despite some reservations about the source I think the comment about psychedelics attributed to Alan Watts is about the best short observation: *“If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen.” *


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## inferno

Bert2368 said:


> Acid is like a long, strange journey.
> 
> DMT is like getting shot out of a cannon.
> 
> Good, bad or ugly, it will be over pretty quickly, but it might feel like it was a lot longer if it's not showing you happy things. There is some anecdotal evidence that people who have other mental health issues such as schizophrenia may have them exacerbated by the experience.
> 
> Reading about it won't really prepare you. Experience with the other stuff that kids will do for fun (and then still want to do again next weekend) is not strictly relevant. There is a good reason this one has seldom been in the party drug rotation- It isn't a big earner, not a lot of frequent fliers. And some good reasons it is still being used by people occasionally too. See some of the early 1960s studies on using psychedelics to treat people with intractable issues. It's probably less of a jolt than ECT, but you will REMEMBER it, unlike getting your brain fried with electricity.
> 
> Good luck, do read the material on safety and MAO inhibitors, do have another person who knows what you are doing present (and straight).
> 
> Disclaimer: I, of course, have never used any illegal drugs. I mean, man, that would have been illegal.



i have never tried acid. only lsa which is like acid without the hallucinations. it was very deep and profound i can tell you that. 

dmt smoked will be over pretty quickly, in like 3-5 minutes. but ayahuasca will not. 6-8h. 

i know what you say about reading about stuff and then actually taking them. 
for example if you read about xtc (mdma) you get the feeling that it will feel nice and good and all. but in reality its like a 100x orgasm for 3h. 

so yeah when i read about these things i have a "up and down" filter engaged "the truth" is somewhere in between somehow. i know whats gonna happen, yet i still dont. and the i dont know part is whats actually drawing me to it. because i dont want to know. i want to be shown.

it doen't matter what i read, it will be vastly different for me. i know that. 

but somehow these last months, aya, has been speaking out to me somehow. so i know i have to take it. i have to know. it will not be party time, no no. but i still feel i need to try it. for better or worse. 

i have been avoiding this like the plague for like 25 years. but now. i have to jump in to the deep side of the pool. blind.

-------------

but from what i have read, this will be the best experience of my entire life. or at the very least my most profound one. or deepest one. 
it will change my life to the better. or so i have read.


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## inferno

LostHighway said:


> I don't think the subject permits easy blanket answers. Despite some reservations about the source I think the comment about psychedelics attributed to Alan Watts is about the best short observation: *“If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen.” *



i feel i have to answer the phone. once. and listen to what they are saying. at least once. then i hang up.


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## inferno

madelinez said:


> Probably not worse for you than excessive alcohol and tobacco...



excessive boose and nicotin, thats my middle name.  

but i feel the same. it probably not worse than any of these. what could go wrong here really. ld50 is like 200x


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## Bert2368

inferno said:


> what could go wrong here really.



My poor little country mouse. Do NOT tempt Murphy so.


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## inferno

i feel doing this below seems fairly safe. maybe we all have a discontuity here with whats being safe and not.

looks perfectly safe to me at least.


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## parbaked

CCKMP...


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## panda

I want to try them all


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## Bert2368

parbaked said:


> CCKMP...


Been a long time since "Copperhead road".


I really miss Stevie Ray.


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## SHOWERDOOKIE

Ayahuasca is totally unreal, the physical set and setting had almost nothing to do with the experience,as the set and setting you’ve been designing for yourself all your life becomes truly evident. I was 17 and drank it in a tea and can’t speak to potency, I do believe that my experience was considerably a mild one but it scared some of the guys shitless. Dude I got it from just never should have gave that **** to us, we weren’t ready to gain perspective in the ways that the drug really allows you to and it ultimately tore a small friend group apart. I learned inherently that my parents were narcissistic and caused me to be and I’ve been fighting tough questions about knowledge and trust all the while attempting to define ‘who I am’, and I’ve been a bit paranoid because of things I experienced that day.

But if I come across it again I’ll do my research and prepare it myself because I feel that it’s something I missed out on the capabilities of and thus have felt like something is missing from a part of me, albeit a part that I don’t like to access without the help of psychedelics. Mescaline has been the most helpful for me in a therapeutic sense, my bowels don’t like to do anything without cannabis in my system, and liquid L is my favorite, I like feeling the oily sensation roll over my eyes when it drops on.

Ive taken a couple pressed flips before and pretty sure one of them was 3meo pcp but never been able to confirm, so as weird as this one sounds, if anyone here gets wet (preferably on 3MeO only) I’m curious as to what that feels like, I haven’t been able to get a concrete answer for myself, the experience I had was almost likened to that of 25i or 2cT17


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## Bert2368

My personal opinion on "research chemicals" and synthetics/semi synthetics is that they should all be totally legal to make and for THE MAKER to use, not to distribute in any way.

That is, if you're driven to make a batch of Albanian elf spice, you can use it yourself. It's your ass on the line and your skills/knowledge is what's keeping it alive, same as rock climbing or SCUBA diving.

If you're not capable or dedicated enough to make your own, you should do without. And if you distribute, frankly, you should be shot.

Because, as the above poster illustrates- If you didn't make it, how the **** do you even know what you're taking? Let alone purity, potentially lethal interactions with that nice bit of Stilton you had yesterday or whether the dark chocolate your girlfriend had this morning means she's going to be DOA at the ER tonight after taking whatever your "friend" made/scored/found in a baggy under a park bench. Commercial distribution guarantees bad outcomes, be it through customer ignorance, maker's incompetence or dealer's greed and dishonesty. Bootleg "Quaaludes" made out of a near LD 50 level dose of Valium and a few mg of Strychnine, anyone?

Once again, this is absolutely a theoretical exercise. I've never done such things or known anyone who did. No Sir! It's all pure speculation, based on reading Wikipedia.


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## LostHighway

Bert2368 said:


> My personal opinion on "research chemicals" and synthetics/semi synthetics is that they should all be totally legal to make and for THE MAKER to use, not to distribute in any way.
> 
> That is, if you're driven to make a batch of Albanian elf spice, you can use it yourself. It's your ass on the line and your skills/knowledge is what's keeping it alive, same as rock climbing or SCUBA diving.
> 
> If you're not capable or dedicated enough to make your own, you should do without. And if you distribute, frankly, you should be shot.
> 
> Because, as the above poster demonstrates- If you didn't make it, how the **** do you even know what you're taking? Let alone purity, potentially lethal interactions with that nice bit of Stilton you had yesterday or whether the dark chocolate your girlfriend had this morning means she's going to be DOA at the ER tonight after taking whatever your "friend" made/scored/found in a baggy under a park bench. Commercial distribution guarantees bad outcomes, be it through customer ignorance, maker's incompetence or dealer's greed and dishonesty. Bootleg "Quaaludes" made out of a near LD 50 level dose of Valium and a few mg of Strychnine, anyone?
> 
> Once again, this is absolutely a theoretical exercise. I've never done such things or known anyone who did. No Sir! It's all pure speculation, based on reading Wikipedia.



That is a slightly more draconian view than my own (I'm not down with shooting anyone) but I certainly take your point. It does, however, skip over the option of sending drugs of dubious provenance to a lab for analysis prior to consumption. This is in no way an endorsement of willy-nilly drug consumption but rather an acknowledgement that people do take drugs and should at least attempt to impose some safety precautions if they are going to do so.
I would far rather see people who are serious of about consciousness altering do the hard work of many years of disciplined meditation rather than looking for the immediate, and usually hollow, flash of psychedelic drugs but most people have little enthusiasm for the hard graft.


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## billyO

LostHighway said:


> serious of about consciousness altering do the hard work of many years of disciplined meditation rather than . . .


This is so true. 
Having said that, I recognize that the possibility exists that these types of drugs, in a controlled setting, _could_ be used as a window to demonstrate what's out there in order to give folks the motivation to stick with the many years of hard work needed to get there without the need for the drugs. 


inferno said:


> it probably not worse than any of these. . .


While that may be true, I keep going back to something that I said regularly that took over 20 years to sink in for me. When discussing marijuana use with friends, some of whom were MDs even, I would often hear, "It's a lot safer then smoking cigarettes." My response would be, "While that may be true, you'll never be able to tell me that putting burning smoke directly into your lungs is a good idea." Like I said, it took over 20 years for me to finally start listening to what I was saying and put the thoughts into action and decline the joint/bowl/bong that was being passed around...

OP - I wish you luck in your search and hope you find the relief you're looking for, whether in substances or in the power of your own mind.
Stay safe


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## Bert2368

At one point in the USA (up to 1973, I recall) you could send a sample anonymously to a lab and get a qualitative and quantitative analysis. PharmChem was the main one, they even published statistics on their results as a public service.

This was effectively reduced by a legal requirement to give your full identification to the lab along with any samples for quantitative tests, that information was then required to be recorded by the lab and made available to the federal government. You could still get anonymous QUALITATIVE analysis, just not QUANTITATIVE ones. Then even that went away due to any lab handling schedule I drugs needing federal licenses, which licenses were no longer being given to private labs for such purposes. (Reagan administration, better you die of your godless illegal drug use and non marital/non hetero sex, you filthy gay commie hippy!)


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## LostHighway

Bert2368 said:


> At one point in the USA (up to 1973, I recall) you could send a sample anonymously to a lab and get a qualitative and quantitative analysis. PharmChem was the main one, they even published statistics on their results as a public service.
> 
> This was effectively reduced by a legal requirement to give your full identification to the lab along with any samples for quantitative tests, that information was then required to be recorded by the lab and made available to the federal government. You could still get anonymous QUALITATIVE analysis, just not QUANTITATIVE ones. Then even that went away due to any lab handling schedule I drugs needing federal licenses, which licenses were no longer being given to private labs for such purposes. (Reagan administration, better you die of your godless illegal drug use and non marital/non hetero sex, you filthy gay commie hippy!)



Thanks, I guess my comment reflects how long ago my purely hypothetical drug career was, not saying that there was one mind you.
Hopefully KKF members from more rational countries still have access to accurate and anonymous drug testing


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## thebradleycrew

I'm going to be honest here; I had not heard of aya before this post. But being the analytical guy I am, I spent three hours doing research on it. Watched four videos, two documentaries. Read lots. What a crazy experience, almost like something one must try at some point in their lives. I was reading that the first U.S. based (legal) aya retreat opened 90 miles outside of Seattle. First known marketed availability in the U.S. though I suspect CV-19 has perhaps impacted their operations. Given that it comes from South America traditionally, is this something that Europeans frequent given that they tend to be more progressive on such things? Fascinating. Thanks for the post @inferno.


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## Kippington

I love LSD - done loads of it, on a little right now. 

Over the last week I've been on acid more days than not, and the last two days I've been experimenting with smaller doses while making knives. It's been a blast! Super productive and fun to boot.


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## lechef

*your take on natural drugs: weed, shrooms, ayahuasca, cactcii and so on.*

What´s not to like. Weed is a staple as with many Chefs out there. Still makes me a little paranoid, so prefer a light dose. Honestly prefer it over an alcohol bender. 
Shrooms I done a few times and really enjoyed it, if I have a day off and can stay by myself. Really want to go to a Ayahuasca ceremony. Tried to get my hands on DMT, but for some reason I have not found any...


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## parbaked

Kippington said:


> Over the last week I've been on acid more days than not, and the last two days I've been experimenting with smaller doses while making knives. It's been a blast! Super productive and fun to boot.



PM sent


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## Carl Kotte

My take? Simple: I don’t take it.


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## ModRQC

Kippington said:


> I love LSD - done loads of it, on a little right now.
> 
> Over the last week I've been on acid more days than not, and the last two days I've been experimenting with smaller doses while making knives. It's been a blast! Super productive and fun to boot.



Doing knives on LSD? Man I'm so afraid you are going to cut yourself, you know... 



Carl Kotte said:


> My take? Simple: I don’t take it.



So that's your leave, then?

I'd take a leaf from your book for sure... but as it is I do love even the leaf, although the bud is best obviously. Marijuana, the type I buy and the way I use it, is barely a drug.

Alcohol is and always will be the most dangerous sh!t AND commercially available; it has killed, and will continue to kill, way more people that all other drugs combined.


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## billyO

ModRQC said:


> Alcohol is and always will be the most dangerous sh!t AND commercially available; it has killed, and will continue to kill, way more people that all other drugs combined.


With the exception of cigarettes, possibly.


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## ModRQC

Well... yes and no... the drug in a cigarette is tobacco... and tobacco isn't the **** that is actually killing us, smokers, in those f***ing cigarettes! It's like the least dangerous substance in there.


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## Carl Kotte

@ModRQC I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I don’t take it; if you do and like doing it, go ahead - I’m happy for you!


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## ModRQC

I don't care that you don't, just wanted to play with words, my man. In all absolute, I can hardly imagine a post where you would be offensive, anyhow.


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## Goorackerelite

Psychedelics means lifting of the veil (Psyche = mind Delic= lift in Latin).Where it has the potential to remove the suspend the conditioning we’ve undergone in our culture while we’re in that dream like state. In certain doses, it is very effective at mimicking serotonin and adrenaline, epinephrine and neuro epinephrine, adrenaline and other chemicals that can permeate the blood brain barrier after it’s been digested by the liver. What follows after that is literally an abduction by the plant matter or the spirit that one is consuming, because it literally elbows our natural serotonin out of the way and attaches to our serotonergic receptor sites. Most of it Is a mysterious process beyond the understanding of science, but done in the right set and setting with the right person and intention. It’s can be certainly disruptive of our trance or our regular day to day lives, where it simultaneously exposes our faults and allows the suspension of deep intergenerational pain so that we may gain space from the emotional wounds that we’ve been trying to push down and not analyze. Or in certain doses and certain environments it can either be fun or hellish. Look them as amplifiers


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## ModRQC

Huh?

Psychedelic means « manifestation of the soul ». The interesting thing being that « mind » is a further addition originating from scientific thinking, where « soul » is much too « loaded » (with religious meanings) a word to befit scientific apparatus.

Lifting of the veil is somehow of a play with words, probably by those who advocate that drugs make for spiritual experiences. They don’t. Settings might though - if you’re soft enough that some candles and music and the likes can bewitch you into thinking you’ve had the revelation of your life.

With « manifestation of the soul », though, one can understand that, while the manifestation is as honest a representation of one’s soul as can be, it’s still far to be imparted with any kind of truth or revelation.


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## Keith Sinclair

My experience with LSD, amplifier Is a good description. First trip I was at ceiling level looking down at myself sitting on the floor. Total out of body experience. 1968 pure acid. Did it other times late 60's early 70's. Always really enjoyed it. Hiking Koolau mountain range with few of my Take Kwon Do buddies. Tripping on LSD.

Smoked fair share of pakalolo surfing in 1970's. Liked that drug too.

Think drugs are more for young people don't do any drugs now except coffee & one beer poured in a glass. A twelve pack lasts two weeks easy as don't have a beer everyday.

Crystal Meth is a problem in Hawaii. It is cheap. Mixed with all kinds of crap, terrible for mind & body. Maybe my older age speaking think people don't care at all about their health, have low self esteem or just plain stupid some of things put into their bodies. 

Liked to watch videos of wing suit proximity flying. Nuts at speed between rocks. If you crack up your dead. What a rush.

Raja Yoga is effort leaning skill to aid in spiritual pursuits

Yoga of wisdom takes no effort just surrender to what is.


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## paranoia_bro

Bert2368 said:


> Been a long time since "Copperhead road".
> 
> 
> I really miss Stevie Ray.




He was a legend for sure


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## juice

Carl Kotte said:


> My take? Simple: I don’t take it.


Same here. I know I've got an addictive personality (as my forum use may or may not demonstrate...) so I totally avoid things that I could easily wind up using destructive amounts of. 

TLDR - I don't trust myself, and with good cause.


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## Marek07

ModRQC said:


> Alcohol is and always will be the most dangerous sh!t AND commercially available; it has killed, and will continue to kill, way more people that all other drugs combined.



Not quite... true that alcohol kills way, way more folk than all illegal drugs combined. Tobacco kills at least twice as many as alcohol according to WHO.


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## Ruso

Legalize it for sure. Banning plants is stupid. Punishing people for using drugs is stupid. Allowing organized crime to prosper due to illegal drugs is stupid.
Educate the youth about drugs, education and educated choices are not stupid.


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## Moooza

Have you seen Mike Tyson talk about toad venom? Says it changed his life.


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## Keith Sinclair

I think they should use Singapore laws for makers of crystal meth. Why bother with tax payer prisons.


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## soigne_west

Nancy reagan rolling over in her grave right now.


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## JDA_NC

How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan is a good read for anyone interested in getting to know a little bit more about some of the scientific research and history that has and is going into these substances.









Michael Pollan Drops Acid — and Comes Back From His Trip Convinced (Published 2018)


In his new book, “How to Change Your Mind,” Pollan turns to psychedelics, their history and their promise.




www.nytimes.com





I'm very, very anti the 'War on Drugs.' I think it's been one of the most destructive movements in our history and it's a real shame. There are a lot of people out there who have been incarcerated for longer sentences on first offense, non-violent drug convictions than people who have done violent crimes like assault, manslaughter etc. Which is strange and sad. 
*
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people," Ehrlichman told journalist Dan Baum in 1994. "You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or blacks, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities." *

Full legalization is a complex issue and I don't support it completely across the board for all substances. For marijuana, yes, definitely legalization on a federal level for everyone over the age of 21. I think there are a lot of therapeutic benefits found in trained staff working with MDMA, LSD, and psilocybin and our whole system of "Schedule 1" drugs needs a complete overhaul. MAPS is doing a lot of great work with MDMA and PTSD and hopefully it will be rescheduled in the near future.

Big Pharma is the real enemy in my eyes and they have made billions off getting people addicted to opiates, amphetamines and benzos - which are all very destructive substances that have ruined many lives and communities.


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## Keith Sinclair

Agree war on drugs has been a failure

England pushing opium on China was the worst. Chinese even fought a war to keep it out they lost. When Mao came to power in 1949 they shot the opium addicts no use to society.


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## parbaked

Keith Sinclair said:


> England pushing opium on China was the worst.



They had no choice. They had to pay for the tea that China got them addicted to...

I am of course kidding. I worked in Hong Kong for Jardine Matheson in the 1980's. 
Jardine was one of the opium trading companies that were born out of the East India Company.
Very interesting colonial culture, even in the 1980s.
If anyone wants a good SIP read, the James Clavell novel "Taipan" was based on Jardine.


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## Keith Sinclair

Thanks have read a couple novels by Clavell. Shogun also saw mini series. Another

Nobel House sounds similar to Tai pan Nobel House based in Hong Kong with Jardine. Maybe you have already read it.

James Clavell was a good Australian storyteller.

Just ordered used paperback of Tai Pan off Amazon 2.98 + 299 shipping.


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## juice

Keith Sinclair said:


> Just ordered used paperback of Tai Pan off Amazon 2.98 + 299 shipping


I didn't realise Hawaii had the same problems with shipping that we have down here


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## Keith Sinclair

Opps 2.99 shipping


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## parbaked

Keith Sinclair said:


> Nobel House sounds similar to Tai pan Nobel House based in Hong Kong with Jardine. Maybe you have already read it.



Nobel House is the sequel to Tai Pan. Takes place in the 1960s - 1980s when I was growing up in HK.
Struan's is Jardine's. 
He also wrote King Rat which was about British POW in Malaysia...also good.


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## inferno

JDA_NC said:


> Full legalization is a complex issue and I don't support it completely across the board for all substances. For marijuana, yes, definitely legalization on a federal level for everyone over the age of 21. I think there are a lot of therapeutic benefits found in trained staff working with MDMA, LSD, and psilocybin and our whole system of "Schedule 1" drugs needs a complete overhaul. MAPS is doing a lot of great work with MDMA and PTSD and hopefully it will be rescheduled in the near future.
> 
> Big Pharma is the real enemy in my eyes and they have made billions off getting people addicted to opiates, amphetamines and benzos - which are all very destructive substances that have ruined many lives and communities.



i completely agree. i think the true psychedelics and some of the "pychedelic amphetamines" such as mdma and similar
has very high potential for medical use. i have read about people deemed uncurable, unfixable, and then they give them acid/some other stuff *1 single time*, and all the problems went away. cured. its like magic.

Because usually in "todays medicine", they dont actually cure any diseases, they just dampen the symptoms.
There are very few diseases they can cure today that would not simply have disappeared by themself anyway after a while.

---------------------------------------

i agree about the opiates and amphetamines too. basically speed/meth/smack/blow and their variants ruin a lot of peoples life. they are way to addictive. i grew up in a quite crappy place when i was young and many people did these things, it didn't turn out very well for most of them. i dont think its possible to do these things in moderation.


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## inferno

i found a pretty good explanation of what ayahuasca is. its basically both the physical brew, and the shamanic ritual.
and the ritual is a form of therapy or medicinal session. it can also be used to prevent problems.

really good explanation in this video here. it starts about 13 minutes in. its a bit slow going but well worth a listen.
i think its recorded in the 90ies. before hundreds of thousands of people went down to SA every year to experience it. 
hope you like it.


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## MarcelNL

I disagree on big pharma intending to make people addicted, abuse of drugs is not promoted in any way..folks incorrectly using prescibed drugs is what causes many of todays problems. Anyone ever got a prescription for Fentanyl or Sufentanyl, quite unlikely unless you suffer from terminal cancer or severe chronic pain!


I feel that the difference between LSd et al and more natural stuff like shrooms and ayahuasca is affecting the effect. With stuff like mdma etc being chemical and quite pure where I live the effects are clear cut , strong and much more unmodal than with naturals.

I 'did' plenty of the better known ones, and happen to like shrooms and Aya best, that said; it needs time to prepare (diet or the MAO inhibtors are tricky, fasting etc) and a good setting to work optimally. So I end up having a box of vines and leaves stored somewhere for quite a while now, not having the opportunity ( nor a strong urge) to use it. Magical stuff, both shrooms and aya but the latter more so.


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## M1k3

Ahem, Purdue Pharma and the Sackler's. Loom them up if you haven't heard about it.


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## juice

M1k3 said:


> Ahem, Purdue Pharma and the Sackler's. Loom them up if you haven't heard about it.


Yeah, anyone who has ever heard of the US should know about this, it's no secret. The entire idea was to get people hooked in order to have a consistent sales model.


----------



## M1k3

juice said:


> Yeah, anyone who has ever heard of the US should know about this, it's no secret. The entire idea was to get people hooked in order to have a consistent sales model.


And if you wanted off, they conveniently have a drug for that.


----------



## juice

M1k3 said:


> And if you wanted off, they conveniently have a drug for that.


Maybe it's coincidence? Or maybe it's covering all your sales bases.


----------



## MarcelNL

yeahyeah, Purdue, in the end pharma companies like all others make money, and marketing groups easily go haywire real quick BUT regulatory oversight is in place (and often fails). In the end of the day the biggest issues are not with prescribed drug users but with illegal non prescibed 'recreational' use. Pharmacists selling drugs under the counter, presciption owners selling drug on to others...


----------



## M1k3

MarcelNL said:


> yeahyeah, Purdue, in the end pharma companies like all others make money, and marketing groups easily go haywire real quick BUT regulatory oversight is in place (and often fails). In the end of the day the biggest issues are not with prescribed drug users but with illegal non prescibed 'recreational' use. Pharmacists selling drugs under the counter, presciption owners selling drug on to others...


I wasn't denying the grey and black market stuff. 

Just pointing out some Pharma companies have been found guilty of being drug pushers.


----------



## MarcelNL

M1k3 said:


> Just pointing out some Pharma companies have been found guilty of being drug pushers.


true, and that is what you expect. 'We at company X promote the use of our product'; public companies need to make profits for investors that make doing cheesy things real nice real quick.

Back to topic, natural psychedelics rock!


----------



## M1k3

MarcelNL said:


> true, and that is what you expect. 'We at company X promote the use of our product'; public companies need to make profits for investors that make doing cheesy things real nice real quick.
> 
> Back to topic, natural psychedelics rock!


Pushing addiction shouldn't even be apart of the profit making decision.


----------



## inferno

dark olive green and purple with a dash of brown, those are my new favorite colors i guess.
but what use are colors anyway? whats really the difference between a color, and an emotion?


----------



## JDA_NC

MarcelNL said:


> I disagree on big pharma intending to make people addicted, abuse of drugs is not promoted in any way..folks incorrectly using prescibed drugs is what causes many of todays problems. Anyone ever got a prescription for Fentanyl or Sufentanyl, quite unlikely unless you suffer from terminal cancer or severe chronic pain!





MarcelNL said:


> yeahyeah, Purdue, in the end pharma companies like all others make money, and marketing groups easily go haywire real quick BUT regulatory oversight is in place (and often fails). In the end of the day the biggest issues are not with prescribed drug users but with illegal non prescibed 'recreational' use. Pharmacists selling drugs under the counter, presciption owners selling drug on to others...





MarcelNL said:


> true, and that is what you expect. 'We at company X promote the use of our product'; public companies need to make profits for investors that make doing cheesy things real nice real quick.



Not sure I fully understand your point. You seem to accept that fact that large, multi-billion dollar corporations were pushing their (highly addictive) pills, all in the name of profit. I take it that you are not American? Because one of the most commonly mentioned things, when talking about what non-Americans are most surprised about when it comes to our culture, is the sheer amount of drug adverts that are constantly ran in our media. We have been bombarded by ads from these companies for DECADES. Which is a totally backward situation. Instead of going to your trained medical professionals and getting their advice, we have been prompted to do our own research and even to suggest which drugs we need from our doctors. That's crazy! And these companies also have spent millions and millions lobbying our government and our medical systems, incentivizing them into prescribing/selling more of a certain brand.

People in general, but especially Americans, are sheep. What do you think is the result of decades of people being sold promises in certain pills? Abuse. And this deregulation of drug marketing helps corrupt our already unstable medical system. I don't think it's a coincidence that there's such a strong anti-vax (or even anti-mask) movement in the United States. We have been told for decades that we know better than our doctors when it comes to what we need!

So we have had huge markets for certain types of drug use created by these companies in order to make a profit. Then there is public outcry because huge portions of our society are becoming addicts - and in many cases, these were more upper-class & visible communities - forcing stronger regulation and a backlash from the medical community. But we're still left with a massive population that are addicted to these substances. You can't get a subscription for Oxycontin, Percocet, Vicodin etc anymore - where do you go? To the street in order to get heroin (cheaper) or pressed pills often cut with fentanyl (also cheaper). If a person faces their addiction and looks for help, what's the solution? Getting prescribed methadone or suboxone? More pills??

I don't know how it is today - but in the early 2000's, every school in America was flooded with Ritalin and Adderall. Do these drugs help people who actually suffer from ADD/ADHD? Sure. But the level of prescriptions were off the charts at the time and it led to a huge amount of abuse of these substances, especially since they could be seen as 'performance enhancing' when it came to school work. What happens when those dry up? People who already have a taste for those drugs look for an alternative - crystal meth.

None of this happens in a vacuum. When our society has been flooded with massive quantities of addictive drugs that scratch a certain itch, it's only natural that after these companies are slapped on the wrist with fines and doctors are arrested for operating pill mills, and the source dries up - those who are addicted are going to continue looking elsewhere for a cheap fix. Often at an increased risk for overdose and incarceration.


----------



## JDA_NC

The Promotion and Marketing of OxyContin: Commercial Triumph, Public Health Tragedy


I focus on issues surrounding the promotion and marketing of controlled drugs and their regulatory oversight. Compared with noncontrolled drugs, controlled drugs, with their potential for abuse and diversion, pose different public health risks when they ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





*OxyContin appears to be as efficacious and safe as other available opioids and as oxycodone taken 4 times daily.11,63 Its commercial success, fueled by an unprecedented promotion and marketing campaign, was stained by escalating OxyContin abuse and diversion that spread throughout the country.2,75 The regions of the country that had the earliest and highest availability of prescribed OxyContin had the greatest initial abuse and diversion.23,67 Nationally, the increasing availability of OxyContin was associated with higher rates of abuse, and it became the most prevalent abused prescription opioid by 2004.2

Compared with noncontrolled drugs, controlled drugs, with their potential for abuse and diversion, pose different public health risks when overpromoted and highly prescribed. Several marketing practices appear to be especially questionable.

The extraordinary amount of money spent in promoting a sustained-release opioid was unprecedented. During OxyContin's first 6 years on the market, Purdue spent approximately 6 to 12 times more on promoting it than the company had spent on promoting MS Contin, or than Janssen Pharmaceutical Products LP had spent on Duragesic, one of OxyContin's competitors.19 Although OxyContin has not been shown to be superior to other available potent opioid preparations,11,63 by 2001 it had become the most frequently prescribed brand-name opioid in the United States for treating moderate to severe pain.19 Carefully crafted limits on the marketing and promotion of controlled drugs would help to realign their actual use with the principles of evidence-based medicine.

Physicians’ interactions with pharmaceutical sales representatives have been found to influence the prescribing practices of residents and physicians in terms of decreased prescribing of generic drugs, prescribing cost, nonrational prescribing, and rapid prescribing of new drugs.76 Carefully crafted limits on the promotion of controlled drugs by the pharmaceutical sales force and enhanced FDA oversight of the training and performance of sales representatives would also reduce over- and misprescribing.

Although there are no available data for evaluating the promotional effect of free starter coupons for controlled drugs, it seems likely that the over- and misprescribing of a controlled drug are encouraged by such promotional programs and the public health would be well served by eliminating them.

The use of prescriber profiling data to influence prescribing and improve sales is imbedded in pharmaceutical detailing. Very little data are publicly available for understanding to what extent this marketing practice boosts sales. One market research report indicated that profiling improved profit margins by as much as 3 percentage points and the initial uptake of new drugs by 30%.77 The use of prescriber profiling data to target high-opioid prescribers—coupled with very lucrative incentives for sales representatives—would seem to fuel increased prescribing by some physicians—perhaps the most liberal prescribers of opioids and, in some cases, the least discriminate. Regulations eliminating this marketing tool might decrease some potential overprescribing of controlled drugs.

The public health would be better protected if the FDA reviewed all advertising and promotional materials as well as associated educational materials—for their truthfulness, accuracy, balance, and scientific validity—before dissemination. Such a change would require a considerable increase in FDA support, staffing, and funding from what is currently available. Public monies spent on the front end of the problem could prevent another such tragedy.

The pharmaceutical industry's role and influence in medical education is problematic. From 1996 through July 2002, Purdue funded more than 20 000 pain-related educational programs through direct sponsorship or financial grants,19 providing a venue that had enormous influence on physicians’ prescribing throughout the country. Particularly with controlled drugs, the potential for blurring marketing and education carries a much higher public health risk than with uncontrolled drugs. At least in the area of controlled drugs, with their high potential for abuse and diversion, public health would best be served by severing the pharmaceutical industry's direct role and influence in medical education.

Marketing and promotion by the pharmaceutical industry have considerably amplified the prescription sales and availability of opioids. A number of factors have contributed to the marked growth of opioid abuse in the United States, but one factor is certainly the much increased availability of prescription opioids.78 The public interest and public health would be better served by a redefinition of acceptable and allowable marketing practices for opioids and other controlled drugs.
*


----------



## inferno

whatever problems one might have, the solution is always found in a pill! there is a pill for everything. 
i read it on the internet so it must be true.


----------



## gregfisk

paranoia_bro said:


> He was a legend for sure


Got to see him a few years ago. What a great performance it was. He’s a legend for sure.


----------



## panda

what are some natural uppers?


----------



## spaceconvoy

cocoa leaves, khat, yerba mate, coffee and tea


----------



## LostHighway

spaceconvoy said:


> cocoa leaves, khat, yerba mate, coffee and tea


There are a number of natural sources of caffeine including coffee, tea, Kola nuts, cocoa beans, guarana berries, yapon holly, yerba mate' (holly genus), and Ilex guayusa ( yet another holly). Humans discovered that they could get a buzz off all of them thousands of years ago.


----------



## Colin

Food is my natural drug. Put on at least 30 lbs since all this BS started.


----------



## M1k3

panda said:


> what are some natural uppers?


coca


----------



## Luftmensch

Cool thread. I guess I should preface my post with... What the F would I know? I have no first-hand experience in this area.



JDA_NC said:


> How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan is a good read for anyone interested in getting to know a little bit more about some of the scientific research and history that has and is going into these substances.



I have only heard & read interviews with him. The condensed version is very interesting. I am sure the book would be well worth the time.

I would certainly like to experience ego-death and, in theory, like the concept of what it could do for the way I think. But there is a catch:



SHOWERDOOKIE said:


> I was 17 and drank it in a tea and can’t speak to potency, I do believe that my experience was considerably a mild one but it scared some of the guys shitless. Dude I got it from just never should have gave that **** to us, we weren’t ready to gain perspective in the ways that the drug really allows you to and it ultimately tore a small friend group apart. I learned inherently that my parents were narcissistic and caused me to be and I’ve been fighting tough questions about knowledge and trust all the while attempting to define ‘who I am’, and I’ve been a bit paranoid because of things I experienced that day.



which leads me to:



juice said:


> TLDR - I don't trust myself, and with good cause.



But for different reasons. It is not addiction. I am self conscious and analytic in a way that lends itself towards neurotic at times. I think that could make me more prone to having a bad trip. 

While it is prudent to be concerned with physical safety, my biggest concern is mental safety. It isn't all beer and skittles with psychedelics. There are two sides to that coin. As much as they can provide overwhelming positive experiences, they are also capable of generating life-alteringly terrifying experiences.

The only way I'd sign up for it is if it were like seeing a psychiatrist. A few consultation appointments before a guided experience to keep you on track. This is effectively the role that ayahuasca ceremonies or shamans play. While I sit in wistful curiosity about how good the experience might be, I am not willing to risk my current 'mediocre' existence on a bad trip .

But thats just me and my tolerance for risk. You are smart and gathering information. Be open to all the risks and take measures to mitigate them. Also be honest about your mental state and what could happen if you took the leash off your brain (e.g. anxieties, past traumas). Personally I wouldn't do it without an experienced guide.... unimaginable to do it alone....


----------



## juice

Luftmensch said:


> While I sit in wistful curiosity about how good the experience might be, I am not willing to risk my current 'mediocre' existence on a bad trip .


+100000000000000000


----------



## inferno

panda said:


> what are some natural uppers?



ephedra sinica


----------



## inferno

Luftmensch said:


> Cool thread. I guess I should preface my post with... What the F would I know? I have no first-hand experience in this area.
> 
> 
> 
> I have only heard & read interviews with him. The condensed version is very interesting. I am sure the book would be well worth the time.
> 
> I would certainly like to experience ego-death and, in theory, like the concept of what it could do for the way I think. But there is a catch:
> 
> 
> 
> which leads me to:
> 
> 
> 
> But for different reasons. It is not addiction. I am self conscious and analytic in a way that lends itself towards neurotic at times. I think that could make me more prone to having a bad trip.
> 
> While it is prudent to be concerned with physical safety, my biggest concern is mental safety. It isn't all beer and skittles with psychedelics. There are two sides to that coin. As much as they can provide overwhelming positive experiences, they are also capable of generating life-alteringly terrifying experiences.
> 
> The only way I'd sign up for it is if it were like seeing a psychiatrist. A few consultation appointments before a guided experience to keep you on track. This is effectively the role that ayahuasca ceremonies or shamans play. While I sit in wistful curiosity about how good the experience might be, I am not willing to risk my current 'mediocre' existence on a bad trip .
> 
> But thats just me and my tolerance for risk. You are smart and gathering information. Be open to all the risks and take measures to mitigate them. Also be honest about your mental state and what could happen if you took the leash off your brain (e.g. anxieties, past traumas). Personally I wouldn't do it without an experienced guide.... unimaginable to do it alone....



i have read a lot about all kinds of psychedelics over the last months (and years), and seen lots of vids on the subject. there was one i saw a few days ago with a panel of psychiatrists and researchers. very good vid. i'll post it under here.

*the thing with psychedelics is that they can provide 15 years of therapy in one session.

*some people can get mental disorders from them, and this usually happens to young people 15-20 years old, when these mental disorders usually shows up anyway. and when they take massive doses (more or less OD)

*many people regard them as preventive medicine too. like changing the oil in engine before it blows up.

*one doesn't have to take the max dose the first time. and only an idiot would do that. (and this is why people get mental disorders). maybe try a small amount and work your way up. its not very hard to find out what a small/regular/very strong/ego death dose of something is.

*its not something to be afraid of, but you need to have respect. its not exactly candy. really potent weed can be just as psychologically heavy and scary or much worse.

here are some vids i found interesting. second is that panel talk, it starts in about 10min in.
third vid is an interview with a guy that has a tv show, he has a good perspective on things.


----------



## Dhoff

Never done any drugs, drank some alchohol. Calms the inner unrest, but only enjoy it when it tastes good and in small amounts.

I've seen a few friends doing simple stuff like marihuana and their IQ dropped like a stone even when not high after they started. Seen from the outside it really does not seem like it would be worth it.

Might it be that when you are doing drugs you are not able to tell the effects on yourself that well?

Might be I should have posted this in unpopular opinion thread  No offence meant. Each to their own as long as others aren't harmed or subjected to effects without consent.


----------



## Iggy

Dhoff said:


> Never done any drugs, drank some alchohol. Calms the inner unrest, but only enjoy it when it tastes good and in small amounts.
> 
> I've seen a few friends doing simple stuff like marihuana and their IQ dropped like a stone even when not high after they started. Seen from the outside it really does not seem like it would be worth it.
> 
> Might it be that when you are doing drugs you are not able to tell the effects on yourself that well?
> 
> Might be I should have posted this in unpopular opinion thread  No offence meant. Each to their own as long as others aren't harmed or subjected to effects without consent.



No you should not have... thanks for that opinion, which matches 100% with mine.

Seen lots of "friends" doing only soft drugs and seen them getting dumb or psycho and not few of them ruined there life with it...

Myself, I only drink alcohol in small amounts (glass of good wine to a nice meal or a beer with mates at an open air or something like this but rarely beyond the drink'n'drive limit over here....

Never tried anything else due to the miserable experiences of the people around me made. Never regret it... Why should I have made the same mistakes??

Besides that I have a family to care about and should not take risks of getting psycho or anything... my brain/IQ is my most important working tool (scientist) and to be honest... and no offence... but I've never met a person doing drugs, which I would call "really intelligent"...

Met a few over the years that said like "Oh I smoke some pot to get relaxed so I can work better afterwards..." or "Oh I take this and that to get more creative at work"... that's just BS... all of them were either just stupid or disillusional and I would employ none of them...

But...just my opinion of course... everyone should decide that for themselves

Iggy


----------



## inferno

if one travels to amsterdam for example where everyone is high all the time and the whole place smells like weed you would understand that this is much more preferable than drunk people by a factor of 1000 or so. if i go out on a friday/saturday here its all just drunk, loud, yelling people wanting to fight. knives, rapes, you name it. if anything decreases IQ its alcohol.


----------



## Dhoff

inferno said:


> if one travels to amsterdam for example where everyone is high all the time and the whole place smells like weed you would understand that this is much more preferable than drunk people by a factor of 1000 or so. if i go out on a friday/saturday here its all just drunk, loud, yelling people wanting to fight. knives, rapes, you name it. if anything decreases IQ its alcohol.



Well, alchohol is damaging when people are idiots and get aggresive because of intoxication.

I would personally object to being in the presence of someone smelling weed in a way that led to me getting high unintentionally. Just like I dislike being in the presence of smokers in a way that subjects me to passive smoking. Especially since I have quite severe asthma being the nerd i am


----------



## inferno

Dhoff said:


> Well, alchohol is damaging when people are idiots and get aggresive because of intoxication.
> 
> I would personally object to being in the presence of someone smelling weed in a way that led to me getting high unintentionally. Just like I dislike being in the presence of smokers in a way that subjects me to passive smoking. Especially since I have quite severe asthma being the nerd i am



you dont/cant get high unintentionally. 

people become idiots when they drink. alcohol is a drug that causes almost immediate dependence and thats why people just continue drinking until they turn into idiots. problem is that they dont realized they turned into idiots.

i'd say that if one goes into booze, weed or psychedelics (especially) with the mindset that you are gonna "get so fukked up now" you will get a bad to very bad result. and with psychedelics its gonna bite back. and bite you in the ass.


----------



## Iggy

inferno said:


> if one travels to amsterdam for example where everyone is high all the time and the whole place smells like weed you would understand that this is much more preferable than drunk people by a factor of 1000 or so. if i go out on a friday/saturday here its all just drunk, loud, yelling people wanting to fight. knives, rapes, you name it. if anything decreases IQ its alcohol.



I think you're missing the point here... we were not talking about getting wasted... we (or at least I) were talking about have 1-2 beers or a few glass of vine...

But that's an argumentation often used yeah... expected that...

Also... your "cannot get high unintentionally" is also wrong IMHO.... f.e. if you are in a closed room together etc.

Luckily, the s*** is illegal over here and I hope it'll stay that way


----------



## spaceconvoy

no offense but I've never met a person who believed 'we should criminalize marijuana' who I would consider intelligent


----------



## Iggy

spaceconvoy said:


> no offense but I've never met a person who believed 'we should criminalize marijuana' who I would consider intelligent



Interesting, over here it's more or less the other way around 
(not entirely, most people I think just don't care because drugs aren't a relevant topic for them...)


----------



## parbaked

Iggy said:


> Interesting, over here it's more or less the other way around


Where are you?


----------



## Iggy

parbaked said:


> Where are you?



Actually I don't really think it's a question of where you live. More I think of your personal sorroundings and people you interact with in your daily life (family, friends, colleagues, customers etc.)

So "over here" more means like "from my perspective"

Northern Germany


----------



## inferno

hey iggy, i was once in berlin. never seen more drugs than there and it was mostly the hard stuff too. speed and blow and whatever now people like to do there. pretty far from the natural stuff imo. several random people asked me and my friend if we had speed to sell them...

but even then when i knew what the people were on i saw no fights, no trouble makers, no nothing.


----------



## JDA_NC

Iggy said:


> Luckily, the s*** is illegal over here and I hope it'll stay that way



But why?

I understand that your personal experiences have shaped your views. Marijuana and its impact on IQ/intelligence is hotly debated and there have been many studies used to argue both sides. The main take away from all the research seems to be that developing teens are the most negatively impacted by chronic use. More research is needed (and currently being done) - I'm not someone who believes marijuana is some miracle herb. But we need proper research and education of the populace, not FUD propaganda.

Since we're going off anecdotal evidence - here's my experience:

I am coming from the perspective of someone who has worked in restaurant kitchens almost their whole professional life. So my professional values do not emphasize IQ/'intellectual sharpness' and instead the importance has always been placed on physical performance, mental fortitude, interest in the craft, and reliability. Another difference between us, is that in my industry - alcohol abuse is rampant. That's due to our constant proximity, the hours, and stress of the job. It is basically an industry standard that you get a 'shift beer' after you're done. I strongly believe this practice conditions people to associate alcohol with the euphoria of finishing work and leads to abuse. It's extremely rare for someone to get done with work, have a beer, and then go home without drinking any more. Generally it leads to people going out to bars or their house and drinking more. This is a daily occurrence.

So I have seen a lot of people ruin their lives with alcohol. Not just from dangerous behavior done while drunk (driving, falling asleep on public transit etc) but also from the physical and mental toll alcohol takes with constant abuse. Alcoholic neuoropathy is a very real thing. It's shocking to see the physical changes in people who abused alcohol heavily and then quit.

I moved to New Orleans when I was 21. Which is a city that is built off tourism that's generally blended with excessive alcohol use. Alcoholism is more or less just a cultural attribute. You can buy alcohol and/or go out to a bar 24 hours out of the day, and it's legal to drink in public/on the street, as long as you're not using a glass bottle. When I was living there you could still smoke inside bars, but even small personal amounts of marijuana was considered a felony. My wife is actually from New Orleans and all her family lives there, but we both have zero desire to ever live there again. The drinking culture is just too strong and now that I'm in my 30's, I don't have the stamina or constitution to be in that environment anymore.

I've lived in California twice too. Before and after legalization of marijuana. I found the cultural attitude towards marijuana to be very refreshing. I come from the opposite side of the country, and a town that was built off the tobacco industry. My perception in California was that smoking tobacco was viewed as a very dirty thing and it was really uncommon to see. Which was an interesting inversion of values. But it wasn't the Wild West with people smoking constantly in public or showing up at work stoned. It'd be like saying we need to make alcohol illegal otherwise people will be constantly drinking at work or showing up drunk. Does this happen? Sure... but that's a small minority of users.

I also lived in Chicago/Illinois before they legalized marijuana. The Midwest in general has a very strong drinking culture in my experience. Something about long winters seems to makes people hole up and abuse alcohol. One restaurant I worked at had a large cowbell in the dining room that servers would ring whenever someone purchased the 'Buy the Kitchen a Round' option on the menu - and it was expected in the kitchen for all of us to hoot & holler to show our appreciation to whoever bought the 'gift.' People also brought bottles of liquor almost every night and the sheer amount of alcohol consumed in that restaurant was pretty staggering. Illinois has a history of corruption and financial mismanagement and my understanding is that their legalization of marijuana has been a big economic boom. It is also the most segregated and racist city I have lived in - and I am sure the legalization has helped in communities of color which are often the hardest hit/most heavily prosecuted by the War on Drugs.

So that's just my little two cents. I can respect and appreciate your personal experiences & values, but I have a hard time understanding your desire to criminalize it. In the same way, I'm glad that you can only drink a beer and then call it a day. My experience is that is a very hard thing to do and most fall short.

My thought is that taking a hard stance on drug possession (especially one that is not addictive) is similar to wanting to only teach abstinence in Sex Ed. People are going to do this anyways - not giving a whole, complete picture of the facts helps no one. And the people who don't have the social support & finances to keep them informed & out of legal trouble are often left most vulnerable.


----------



## Iggy

inferno said:


> hey iggy, i was once in berlin. never seen more drugs than there and it was mostly the hard stuff too. speed and blow and whatever now people like to do there. pretty far from the natural stuff imo. several random people asked me and my friend if we had speed to sell them...
> 
> but even then when i knew what the people were on i saw no fights, no trouble makers, no nothing.



Ok first of all, I'm not from Berlin but I know Berlin quite good (had a short-term work there and lived there) but that's not relevant. Fact is your correct, saw a lot of drugs there in the nightlife...also a lot of aggression etc...

Second, as I said, it's not the country or city you live in IMHO, it's the people you know and you live your life with... (see previous post)

And third and most important... actually I don't care if people are loud or aggressive (spent most of my later teenage years on the Reeperbahn), so I know how rude, aggressive and stupid wasted peoples are (independently of which substances they are on). That's not the point IMHO.

The point is that mind-altering substances include a risk of damaging your mental health as well as your IQ and other body functions. Of course, some more, some less. And for some it's better known, and for some less...
Of course you have to decide if you want to take the risk yourself.

I don't (I explained why... because of people I knew you ruined (or in fact ended) their lives with or because of those substances in quite young years). And I feel good, it's forbidden, because I don't have to worry less about my children getting in contact with.

In fact I would even encourage more stricter regulations, because I know, even now (while it's illegal) it's really easy to get if you want it...

Btw... I'm perfectly clear, that maybe it would be a good idea to blame (or at least more regulate) alcohol, too. I wouldn't have a problem with that... have a look at parts of scandinavia f.e. were alcohol has huge taxes on it and is sold only in limited stores... also... I think I have never seen so many drunk people like new year in Helsinki... 

Also btw... I have to say I've never been to the US and know the "war on drugs" etc. topics only from news and media, but I get the impression, that it's a far more critical and political topic there than "over here", were drug related violance and criminality aren't really a big topic in my everyday life...
In fact, I know nobody who had legal problems because of their drug use... but a lot of people with other negative side effects... so I can't really understand the "criminilization" argument

although of course it might be just my little piece of the world I call my environment... so I understand, that totally other views on the topic are possible and understandable and it's all down to your personal perspective.

So please understand all my post as my own personal opinion. Not more, not less.

Iggy


----------



## spaceconvoy

I used marijuana for about five years to help with insomnia while I was going through therapy for PTSD. I was able to quit after I experienced a successful therapeutic outcome through EMDR therapy. Due to my family history of mental health issues, I was wary of using prescription drugs after seeing my aunts and uncles experience debilitating side effects using various antidepressants and mood stabilizers. For me, marijuana seemed like a better option.

I don't pretend it doesn't have side effects - all drugs do. Would you stop taking heart medication because it makes you tired? Yes, marijuana reduces cognition and productivity, but without it I would have been far less productive due to my PTSD symptoms. Thanks to marijuana, not in spite of it, I was able to have a successful career as an engineer during the entire time I was using it.

I can understand how you've become prejudiced based on the examples you can see easily. But I'm almost certain you know people you'd never suspect of smoking marijuana who you'd consider otherwise intelligent and productive. They can probably tell you're closed-minded, so the intelligent ones would hide that fact from you. As a scientist I would hope you'd understand the importance of sample bias before jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Iggy

spaceconvoy said:


> I can understand how you've become prejudiced based on the examples you can see easily. But I'm almost certain you know people you'd never suspect of smoking marijuana who you'd consider otherwise intelligent and productive. They can probably tell you're closed-minded, so the intelligent ones would hide that fact from you. As a scientist I would hope you'd understand the importance of sample bias before jumping to conclusions.



Thanks for your reaction. But if you read my post closely, I was not pointing out facts or conclusions, but pointed out that there are risks on taking mindaltering substances - to my knowledge, that is a fact - and that I would think, that it is not worth the risk.

Nothing unscientific I can find about mentioning an opinion (when marked as an opinion, which it is)... 

But of course, it's always easier to say someone is closeminded or biased. The second I am in this topic (I think everyone would be after the experiences), true... the first, no really not and I find it quite funny to be called this just because I don't share your opinion. Which it also is... just an opinion.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## Nemo

I think I'll stick to natural stones.


----------



## Luftmensch

inferno said:


> i have read a lot about all kinds of psychedelics over the last months (and years), and seen lots of vids on the subject. there was one i saw a few days ago with a panel of psychiatrists and researchers. very good vid. i'll post it under here.
> 
> *the thing with psychedelics is that they can provide 15 years of therapy in one session.
> 
> *some people can get mental disorders from them, and this usually happens to young people 15-20 years old, when these mental disorders usually shows up anyway. and when they take massive doses (more or less OD)
> 
> *many people regard them as preventive medicine too. like changing the oil in engine before it blows up.
> 
> *one doesn't have to take the max dose the first time. and only an idiot would do that. (and this is why people get mental disorders). maybe try a small amount and work your way up. its not very hard to find out what a small/regular/very strong/ego death dose of something is.
> 
> *its not something to be afraid of, but you need to have respect. its not exactly candy. really potent weed can be just as psychologically heavy and scary or much worse.
> 
> here are some vids i found interesting. second is that panel talk, it starts in about 10min in.
> third vid is an interview with a guy that has a tv show, he has a good perspective on things.



Thanks for the links! I put the first two on in the background. Michael Pollan has a foreword at the beginning of the second video, before the discussion panel. There is a whole heap of his stuff on youtube. I enjoyed the discussion.

My interest in it is from the cognitive psychology angle. I do find the cross over with spirituality interesting from an anthropology point of view as well.

I suppose since you have expressed interest in the experience, do you have an outcome you are seeking? Or is it purely about the experience?


----------



## inferno

Nemo said:


> I think I'll stick to natural stones.



"the gateway drug"!! it will lead to fininacial ruin in a very short time


----------



## inferno

Luftmensch said:


> Thanks for the links! I put the first two on in the background. Michael Pollan has a foreword at the beginning of the second video, before the discussion panel. There is a whole heap of his stuff on youtube. I enjoyed the discussion.
> 
> My interest in it is from the cognitive psychology angle. I do find the cross over with spirituality interesting from an anthropology point of view as well.
> 
> I suppose since you have expressed interest in the experience, do you have an outcome you are seeking? Or is it purely about the experience?



i think the common outcome is that you get enlightened about whats important and whats not in your life. 
from what i have read almost all psychedelics will give you a very profound and spiritual experience.

there are some questions i have that i feel i deserve to get answered. 
the hard questions...

What is the meaning of life? What's it all about?
Why are we here? 
What are we here for?
What is the nature of life? 
What is the nature of reality?
What is the purpose of life? What is the purpose of one's life?
What is meaningful and valuable in life?
What is the reason to live? What are we living for?

yeah i just copied those from Meaning of life - Wikipedia but you get the point.


----------



## Luftmensch

inferno said:


> i think the common outcome is that you get enlightened about whats important and whats not in your life.
> from what i have read almost all psychedelics will give you a very profound and spiritual experience.
> 
> there are some questions i have that i feel i deserve to get answered.
> the hard questions...
> 
> What is the meaning of life? What's it all about?
> Why are we here?
> What are we here for?
> What is the nature of life?
> What is the nature of reality?
> What is the purpose of life? What is the purpose of one's life?
> What is meaningful and valuable in life?
> What is the reason to live? What are we living for?
> 
> yeah i just copied those from Meaning of life - Wikipedia but you get the point.



Haha!

I am not sure you'll get the answer to most of those 

From what I have read etc..



inferno said:


> enlightened about whats important and whats not in your life





inferno said:


> What is meaningful and valuable in life?



These might get answered


----------



## Luftmensch

(Personally I am very, _very_ intrigued at the concept of ego death/dissolution and what seeing your sense of identity being stripped away might be like.)


----------



## Nemo

inferno said:


> "the gateway drug"!! it will lead to fininacial ruin in a very short time


Although I had always assumed that symthetics were the gateway


----------



## LostHighway

inferno said:


> i think the common outcome is that you get enlightened about whats important and whats not in your life.
> from what i have read almost all psychedelics will give you a very profound and spiritual experience.
> 
> there are some questions i have that i feel i deserve to get answered.
> the hard questions...
> 
> What is the meaning of life? What's it all about?
> Why are we here?
> What are we here for?
> What is the nature of life?
> What is the nature of reality?
> What is the purpose of life? What is the purpose of one's life?
> What is meaningful and valuable in life?
> What is the reason to live? What are we living for?
> 
> yeah i just copied those from Meaning of life - Wikipedia but you get the point.



Good luck getting answers to those questions with psychedelics. While I know quite a number of people who had "wow!" experiences on drugs or who found insights that seemed profound in the moment I've never met anyone who grew what I would call wise through the use of drugs. I think you are in realm of religion and, to a lesser extent, philosophy.


----------



## Luftmensch

LostHighway said:


> Good luck getting answers to those questions with psychedelics.



I read it as being tongue in cheek .

Some psychedelics are reported to elicit a sense of 'connectedness' and evoke a 'spiritual' experience (whatever these terms mean). I think @inferno is anticipating that these experiences could help him reevaluate what he finds to be meaningful.

Speaking of religion and philosophy. I'll be mildly provocative and assert that "What is the meaning of life?" is a pointless question


----------



## LostHighway

Luftmensch said:


> Speaking of religion and philosophy. I'll be mildly provocative and assert that "What is the meaning of life?" is a pointless question



From a purely materialistic perspective I would agree although perhaps with some qualifiers. For the believers in a truly existent self that extends over more-or-less linear infinite time (very roughly the view of the Abrahamic religions) or for those who believe in a rather more cyclic view of time coupled with much more varied notions of the nature or existence of self (big umbrella here for the major South and East Asian religions) the meaning of life or perhaps the more fundamental nature of existence/reality gains some importance.


----------



## WildBoar

What is the meaning of life? What's it all about? Cooking, knives and eating
Why are we here? Because someone has to eat the piggies
What are we here for? Dinner!
What is the nature of life? The food chain
What is the nature of reality? Prepping and cooking takes a while, thus spawning fast food
What is the purpose of life? What is the purpose of one's life? To contribute to the overall prep and cooking duties
What is meaningful and valuable in life? Duck and lamb
What is the reason to live? What are we living for? Dinner!


----------



## Luftmensch

LostHighway said:


> From a purely materialistic perspective I would agree although perhaps with some qualifiers. For the believers in a truly existent self that extends over more-or-less linear infinite time (very roughly the view of the Abrahamic religions) or for those who believe in a rather more cyclic view of time coupled with much more varied notions of the nature or existence of self (big umbrella here for the major South and East Asian religions) the meaning of life or perhaps the more fundamental nature of existence/reality gains some importance.



Nice considered reply!  

Whether a belief system indicates what the underlying nature of reality/existence is, they uniformly acknowledge our agency. While they may have frameworks for morality/purpose, the agency we have allows us to determine our own 'path' (albeit, with some systems imposing more constraints than others). And therein lies the opportunity for us to discover our own route to 'meaning'! It can't be universal....


----------



## M1k3

42


----------



## MarcelNL

inferno said:


> if one travels to amsterdam for example where everyone is high all the time and the whole place smells like weed you would understand that this is much more preferable than drunk people by a factor of 1000 or so. if i go out on a friday/saturday here its all just drunk, loud, yelling people wanting to fight. knives, rapes, you name it. if anything decreases IQ its alcohol.



I'm sure you know that this is a blatant exaggeration, I don;t think it helps this conversation in any way.


----------



## inferno

Luftmensch said:


> I suppose since you have expressed interest in the experience, do you have an outcome you are seeking? Or is it purely about the experience?



ok i'll try to answer seriously.

i dont really think one needs to have some disease or problems or similar to take these things, and that they will magically cure you.
why not just take them and see what happens, and see where it takes you? whats wrong with that? there is always something to learn.

when we were young we did shrooms a couple of times, not for therapy, but just to have fun. now this was over 20 years ago so its a bit cloudy but i think i felt the calmest calm in the universe, never felt so calm and relaxed in my entire life. and you finally understood how you were connected to the universe and nature. there was some minor visual distortions like walls starting to breathe and colors of stuff changed a bit. and things could "talk" to you, you could hear/feel what stuff felt. and you could hear/feel what people were thinking (no joke).

but the good part was that it opened up a new way of thinking, and you could access your deepest problems. you can lie to everyone, you can lie to yourself, but not on shrooms you cant! no escape there. we did this in groups of 4-7 friends and had very deep and completely honest discussions about everything. and in the end it was very therapeutic and beautiful. its a medicine if you ask me. and its also a very long lasting one too.

------

also about 20 years or so ago i tried some HBWS seeds (LSA), and that experience was like, i dont know, worth 5 years of psychotherapy i guess. i got an incredible stomach pain for several hours. but there was also this ultra deep introspective thoughts that i could not escape from. and it forced me to confront my problems and solve them there and then. i felt like i had matured mentally 5 years after that. its was very taxing during the experience but afterwards it was very rewarding. 

----------

now none of my friends that took the shrooms has ever had any psychological problems afterwards, and i mean any. and psychological problems is new black it seems like, i mean the whole world has gone ****ing crazy. and its getting worse by the hour. just open up a paper, any paper. but my shroom friends stay sane somehow. surprise surprise.


----------



## inferno

MarcelNL said:


> I'm sure you know that this is a blatant exaggeration, I don;t think it helps this conversation in any way.



yeah its a bit of an exaggeration but on the other hand its true too.


----------



## Lars

No.


----------



## Dhoff

M1k3 said:


> 42



That would be:

"The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything"

The real interesting question is what the question was!


----------



## inferno

In the radio series and the first novel, a group of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings demand to learn the *Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything* from the supercomputer Deep Thought, specially built for this purpose. It takes Deep Thought 7 1⁄2 million years to compute and check the answer, which turns out to be 42. Deep Thought points out that the answer seems meaningless because the beings who instructed it never actually knew what the question was.[4]

When asked to produce the Ultimate Question, Deep Thought says that it cannot; however, it can help to design an even more powerful computer that can. This new computer will incorporate living beings into the "computational matrix" and will run for ten million years. The computer is revealed as being the planet Earth, with its pan-dimensional creators assuming the form of white lab mice to observe its running.


----------



## ian

Just for convenience, I organized these into bullsh*t



inferno said:


> What is the meaning of life? What's it all about?
> Why are we here?
> What are we here for?
> What is the purpose of life? What is the purpose of one's life?



and not bullsh*t.




inferno said:


> What is the nature of life?
> What is the nature of reality?
> What is meaningful and valuable in life?
> What is the reason to live? What are we living for?


----------



## Wander Vanhoucke

In my experience, LSD was an amplification of my imagination. for example, When someone told a story it was very vivid. At the peak I could mess with my friends (who were on acid too), making them believe that one of two identical spoons were heavier, lighter, bigger or colder. Gave me some very cool insights and a massive ego death Fun experience, wouldn't do it again soon though.
I'd like to hear more about making knives on acid though hahaha!! @Kippington


----------



## Luftmensch

Dhoff said:


> The real interesting question is what the question was!



What do you get if you multiply six by nine?


----------



## Luftmensch

inferno said:


> i dont really think one needs to have some disease or problems or similar to take these things, and that they will magically cure you.
> why not just take them and see what happens, and see where it takes you? whats wrong with that?



Hehe... sorry if I sounded judgemental. Of course you _dont_ need a reason. I just thought you wouldn't be doing it totally arbitrarily either! I was curious 




inferno said:


> the whole world has gone ****ing crazy



Yeah... ... Its easy to throw hyperbole in there like "end of days"... It isnt... but things do look pretty systemically broken.


----------



## inferno

Luftmensch said:


> Hehe... sorry if I sounded judgemental. Of course you _dont_ need a reason. I just thought you wouldn't be doing it totally arbitrarily either! I was curious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah... ... Its easy to throw hyperbole in there like "end of days"... It isnt... but things do look pretty systemically broken.



no you didn't sound judgemental. dont worry.


----------



## LostHighway

To get back to the original thread, however momentarily, I'm curious if anyone here has, hypothetically speaking, tried _Salvia divinorum? _I'm also a bit surprised that only @inferno has mentioned Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds. I can't personally speak to either.

As to the legalization question I think both Prohibition (no legal alcohol sales in the USA from 1920 to 1933) and the War on Drugs can be fairly characterized as abject failures. They have been, however, effectively been a gift to organized crime in North America, Europe, Columbia, Afghanistan, and a number of other countries. I haven't given a great deal of thought to what a more rational legal structure might look like but I think some sort of *controlled* access for those 25+ to drugs of known purity and strength is not an altogether crazy idea. For the USA as a country that allows almost any idiot to get and keep a driving license, or to too often keep driving after their license has been suspended or revoked, to buy a gun merely by virtue of being at least 18 years old, to possess a gun at almost any age in most states, then to have a particularly draconian legal structure with regard to "recreational" drugs seems mad to me. We'll put aside for now discussion of the global legal pharmaceutical industry which often behaves rather like organized crimes and all too frequently produces appallingly shoddy research, as a separate issue.


----------



## JDA_NC

I have enjoyed this discussion so far! Thanks to everyone for responding & participating in a mature & respectful manner.



Luftmensch said:


> (Personally I am very, _very_ intrigued at the concept of ego death/dissolution and what seeing your sense of identity being stripped away might be like.)



I want to throw out a little caution here. Every report I have read on the experience of ego death emphasizes the very 'real' sensation of death. Meaning that your life, your connection to your family & your loved ones, your hopes, dreams, and ambitions are all fading away and not coming back. That is a terrifying thing to read and write out, but I have to feel that barely scratches the surface of what actually going through the experience feels like. In a lot of ways, it's the psychological equivalent of going bungee jumping with an invisible rope that you can't see or feel. You will come back from the experience, but if you can't surrender into it and let go of control, it's very likely you are going to have a bad time.

So this is not something I would chase unless you are very grounded & comfortable in your reality, have a good pool of experience with lesser dosages, and are in a loving, safe, and supportive environment. You have expressed how you fear it's not worth the gamble - so I mention this more for anyone who happens to be browsing and feels similarly. 



LostHighway said:


> Good luck getting answers to those questions with psychedelics. While I know quite a number of people who had "wow!" experiences on drugs or who found insights that seemed profound in the moment I've never met anyone who grew what I would call wise through the use of drugs. I think you are in realm of religion and, to a lesser extent, philosophy.



Agreed. Ram Dass more or less came around to this view, which should say something... 

There's a book called *Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics and Religious Experiences *that I felt was an interesting read. The author, William Richards, first got involved with psychedelic therapy in the '60s in Germany, then went on to do (legal) research with these substances in Maryland for decades. He has been influential in re-starting research with psilocybin at Johns Hopkins with Roland Griffiths - leading to the development of their Center for Psychedelic & Consciousness Research. So he has probably done more therapy sessions than anyone else in America save Stan Grof. 

Not for everyone, of course. If you're talking about mystical/religious experiences, it has to involve some suspension of disbelief. If you're a stone cold skeptic, realist, or atheist - you'll probably find it all baloney. But I thought it was thoughtful and open-minded, with lots of details about their research and methodology at Johns Hopkins.


----------



## Kippington

JDA_NC said:


> Every report I have read on the experience of ego death emphasizes the very 'real' sensation of death. Meaning that your life, your connection to your family & your loved ones, your hopes, dreams, and ambitions are all fading away and not coming back.


But there are some upsides to the same feeling, namely that your time on Earth is a finite commodity: It's valuable, worth investing in and spending wisely.

I've been on a few acid trips with my brother. He had a horrendous ego death... from his point of view, but it was entertaining for me!
We were sitting on a park bench out on a beautiful day, and he bolted up, dropped everything he was holding and sprinted away for a short distance, then slowly turned around and sheepishly walked back. I asked him what that was all about, and he said he felt the need to run away from some physical manifestation of death. It occurred to me (who carries a parrot around everywhere) that he had the same instinctual flight reflex - as in 'fight or flight' - that my bird will sometimes get just as he gets startled by nothing and flies away for no apparent reason. We had a laugh about it, and how my parrot was the more chill one at the time, then we headed home.
Later, he was convinced our mother (who is gravely ill) had only minutes left to live. He wanted to see her at that moment, and it took a lot of work on my behalf trying to explain to him that driving 40km across the city on a head full of LSD was a terrible idea.

The experience completely changed my brother's life for the better. Within a few months he quit computer games, moved out of mum's place, quit working a hotel job and got a new one at Volkswagon, started driving a new car company around, rented a new apartment in the city, got multiple lady friends....

Ego death is an interesting thing, but quite impossible to put into words, and the experience will differ differ from person to person anyway.



Wander Vanhoucke said:


> I'd like to hear more about making knives on acid though hahaha!! @Kippington


It's really fun!

I start my usual knife-making routine, but the acid makes me question if the specific action I'm doing is correct, or if it even has any significance at all. It's a very confusing feeling, but I knuckle down and complete the task, then I move onto the next thing and get the same fundamental questions running through my head. Before I know it, I have a beautiful finished object in my hands - born new to this world - and my brain can't quite add up how it got there...



ModRQC said:


> Doing knives on LSD? Man I'm so afraid you are going to cut yourself, you know...



The knives generally aren't sharp until the very end. It's surprisingly difficult to get hurt if you understand the dangers and have control over the tools you're using. Accidentally grabbing something hot is one of the biggest dangers, but it's not like you'll keep holding onto it. A small burn isn't the end of the world.


----------



## juice

WildBoar said:


> What is the reason to live? What are we living for? Dinner!


Geez, post this on a fasting day to really rub it in, why doncha!


----------



## ian

Kippington said:


> But there are some upsides to the same feeling, namely that your time on Earth is a finite commodity: It's valuable, worth investing in and spending wisely.
> 
> I've been on a few acid trips with my brother. He had a horrendous ego death... from his point of view, but it was entertaining for me!
> We were sitting on a park bench out on a beautiful day, and he bolted up, dropped everything he was holding and sprinted away for a short distance, then slowly turned around and sheepishly walked back. I asked him what that was all about, and he said he felt the need to run away from some physical manifestation of death. It occurred to me (who carries a parrot around everywhere) that he had the same instinctual flight reflex - as in 'fight or flight' - that my bird will sometimes get just as he gets startled by nothing and flies away for no apparent reason. We had a laugh about it, and how my parrot was the more chill one at the time, then we headed home.
> Later, he was convinced our mother (who is gravely ill) had only minutes left to live. He wanted to see her at that moment, and it took a lot of work on my behalf trying to explain to him that driving 40km across the city on a head full of LSD was a terrible idea.
> 
> The experience completely changed my brother's life for the better. Within a few months he quit computer games, moved out of mum's place, quit working a hotel job and got a new one at Volkswagon, started driving a new car company around, rented a new apartment in the city, got multiple lady friends....
> 
> Ego death is an interesting thing, but quite impossible to put into words, and the experience will differ differ from person to person anyway.
> 
> 
> It's really fun!
> 
> I start my usual knife-making routine, but the acid makes me question if the specific action I'm doing is correct, or if it even has any significance at all. It's a very confusing feeling, but I knuckle down and complete the task, then I move onto the next thing and get the same fundamental questions running through my head. Before I know it, I have a beautiful finished object in my hands - born new to this world - and my brain can't quite add up how it got there...
> 
> 
> 
> The knives generally aren't sharp until the very end. It's surprisingly difficult to get hurt if you understand the dangers and have control over the tools you're using. Accidentally grabbing something hot is one of the biggest dangers, but it's not like you'll keep holding onto it. A small burn isn't the end of the world.



Didn’t you shred your thumb while grinding at some point? Or am I thinking of someone else...


----------



## Kippington

ian said:


> Didn’t you shred your thumb while grinding at some point? Or am I thinking of someone else...


Yeah that was me. Completely sober at the time.
I wasn't aware of a particular danger in my technique. I have since changed my method.

*Gore warning*

It's all grown back now.


----------



## M1k3

Kippington said:


> Yeah that was me. Completely sober at the time.
> I wasn't aware of a particular danger in my technique. I have since changed my method.
> 
> *Gore warning*
> 
> It's all grown back now.


----------



## Luftmensch

Kippington said:


> It's all grown back now.




Nasty scar?

Imagine if you were on a high dose of LSD.... you'd have rainbows coming out your thumb .... or maybe something like the shining elevator scene


----------



## M1k3

REDRUM!


----------



## inferno

regarding the mythical ego death. this is where you end up if you take a lot of/too much of, i guess, any psychedelic. 

its gets weirder and weirder until it just overloads your mind. and from what i have read, its the state where you simply stop understanding that you are who you are, or a human at all, you simply dont know/understand that you exist anymore. so for all practical purposes you think you are dead. i dont even know if one can "think" in the regular sense at that point. you might just be able to observe. i have also seen it described as "the void".

i think other drugs are capable of this too. different sleeping pills and similar stuff. it might not have any kind of healing effect after though.


----------



## Kippington

inferno said:


> i think other drugs are capable of this too. different sleeping pills and similar stuff.


Nah the sleeping pills just knock you out. Have you ever been fully under for surgery? It's like that - You wake up afterwards and have a hole in time that your brain has nothing to fill. Hardly an overload of the mind, more of a quiet shutdown.

Maybe @Nemo can get involved in this, he might know a bit about some of this stuff...


----------



## inferno

i have heard stories about "ambien", some pretty wild ones.
its the 50th most commonly prescribed drug in the US.


----------



## Luftmensch

JDA_NC said:


> this is not something I would chase unless you are very grounded & comfortable in your reality, have a good pool of experience with lesser dosages, and are in a loving, safe, and supportive environment. You have expressed how you fear it's not worth the gamble - so I mention this more for anyone who happens to be browsing and feels similarly.



For sure (at least for me!).




JDA_NC said:


> Every report I have read on the experience of ego death emphasizes the very 'real' sensation of death. Meaning that your life, your connection to your family & your loved ones, your hopes, dreams, and ambitions are all fading away and not coming back. That is a terrifying thing to read and write out, but I have to feel that barely scratches the surface of what actually going through the experience feels like.





inferno said:


> what i have read, its the state where you simply stop understanding that you are who you are, or a human at all, you simply dont know/understand that you exist anymore.




I know I used the phrase 'ego death' previously... 'ego dissolution' seems more modern. I wouldnt be surprised if this was a deliberate choice by modern advocates to steer the language away from negative connotations. Losing the boundary between an internal identity and the external world would no doubt be disorienting. It could be down right terrifying. But people also seem to describe the experience using language in common with the experience of being 'connected'. After all, if you strip away perceived differences between yourself and others (or things)... wouldn't you feel you shared more in common? Maybe you could see all the external things you worried about were internal manifestations. I dunno! I am an armchair scientists... (thats got to be annoying!).

Either way... I am very fascinated by it but I think it underscores the importance of having a guide/supervision. While apparently hallucinated symbols (doors, walls, monsters) can be terrifying, a compassionate guide can help you confront them. Anecdotally this can be cathartic.

Medical studies have shown psilocybin can help treat fear and lead to durable change. The oft quoted example is the cancer patients: "_High-dose psilocybin produced large decreases in clinician- and self-rated measures of depressed mood and anxiety, along with increases in quality of life, life meaning, and optimism, and decreases in death anxiety_" [ref]. The article says the experience weren't guided but there was a large amount of preparation: "_preparation meetings before the first session, which included discussion of meaningful aspects of the participant’s life, served to establish rapport and prepare the participant for the psilocybin sessions_". Also after sessions: "m_eetings after sessions generally focused on novel thoughts and feelings that arose during sessions_". A similar study is currently being conducted in Australia.

These drugs create a heightened state of suggestibility. I rather suspect that if you had decided to do a guided experience and started with an objective like "I want to confront my fear of cancer/death", the guide could 'bend' your trip in that direction. And of course there is the self-placebo of thinking you might discover an answer to that questions in the first place. Again... the anthropology side is interesting here. Do shamans employ things like cold reading or knowledge of the person to force a narrative during the trip?



Makes me curious though... I'd like to see what happens if an unimaginative, stubborn and stone-cold sceptic takes one of these drugs!!


----------



## inferno

look into this luftmensch, i think this will provoke ego death.


----------



## MarcelNL

when you write ego-death, is that literal or just a phrase? Some of these drugs can help identifying the ego, yet IMO it does not go away or dies. Being able to see the ego for what it is may (MAY) help folks to deal with their fears better and it can help clarify goals. Ego-death, IMO, is only for a few, thus enlightened people but even those usually struggle with their ego for life, alrhough they are far better at identifuing their ego at large ;-)


----------



## Nemo

Kippington said:


> Nah the sleeping pills just knock you out. Have you ever been fully under for surgery? It's like that - You wake up afterwards and have a hole in time that your brain has nothing to fill. Hardly an overload of the mind, more of a quiet shutdown.
> 
> Maybe @Nemo can get involved in this, he might know a bit about some of this stuff...


Yeah, that's a good description of benzos.

So there are a few diferent categories of medicines/ drugs being mentioned here.

Our understanding of how the brain works is pretty incomplete so necessarily our understanding of how these drugs affect the brainis also pretty incomplete.

Most slepers are benzodiazepines. They have amnestic and sedating properties. You are probably not gonna remember some or all of the experience. Great for acute anxiety in a single dose. The sleep you get from them is super low quality. They are used a fair bit in anaesthesia as a pre-med and in ICU sedation while on life support. Terribly addictive in medium to long tem use. Please don't get hooked on these. They prevent learning to a large degree. Produce a lot of disinhibited behaviour.

Zopiclone is an atypical sedative. It was originally marketed as a kind of benzo without the benzo problems. In reality, not so much. Lots of reports of people doing really stupid disinhibited stuff on zopiclone.

The only psychadelic that I have seen used is ketamine, often used as an atypical analgesic but also as an anaesthetic agent in some circumstances. It causes confusion, vivid dreams and hallucinations in some people. Occasionally this is terrifying but sometimes just weird. Some people cope well with it, others hate it.

In higher doses, it produces an unusual type of anaesthesia. Breathing tends to be maintained but the reflexes that protect from inhaling vomit are not and it's well known to produce death by choking on vomit in this situation. As an added "bonus", it produces excessive salivation. Never give it to dog or it will choke on its own saliva.

There is research interest in its use (and indeed in some other psychodelics) in some specific types of major depression, as part of a highly controlled psychotherapy regimen. This is definitely not currently mainstream medicine and you'd be mad to self-administer pschadelics outside of a professionally tailored psychotherapy regimen on the basis that you feel a bit depressed or even severely depressed. Lots can go wrong.

The ego disolution caused by psychadelics has beed described as removing the consciousness' tethering to the physical body. It has contributed to fascinating speculation about the nature of consciousness and even the nature of reality in fields as diverse as spirituality, nueroscience, psychology and even physics.

I've never taken psychadelics myself and am not considering doing so. If I was, I'd be making bloody sure that it was in a safe, controlled environment with someone who I trusted who really knew what they were doing.


----------



## Nemo

Kippington said:


> Yeah that was me. Completely sober at the time.
> I wasn't aware of a particular danger in my technique. I have since changed my method.
> 
> *Gore warning*
> 
> It's all grown back now.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the exam first and the lesson second.


----------



## juice

Nemo said:


> Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the exam first and the lesson second.


That's a pretty terrible teacher, TBH.


----------



## inferno

buy the ticket, take the ride!


----------



## Dhoff

inferno said:


> buy the ticket, take the ride!



Run away run away live to see another day


----------



## LostHighway

Nemo said:


> The only psychadelic that I have seen used is ketamine, often used as an atypical analgesic but also as an anaesthetic agent in some circumstances. It causes confusion, vivid dreams and hallucinations in some people. Occasionally this is terrifying but sometimes just weird. Some people cope well with it, others hate it.
> 
> In higher doses, it produces an unusual type of anaesthesia. Breathing tends to be maintained but the reflexes that protect from inhaling vomit are not and it's well known to produce death by choking on vomit in this situation. As an added "bonus", it produces excessive salivation. Never give it to dog or it will choke on its own saliva.



US law enforcement is using ketamine to control suspects. In most cases it is administered after the suspect is already in restraints. Laws differ by state, most states require that paramedics administer the drug but I believe there are situations where law enforcement without much in the way of medical credentials is administering it. This is without consent by the subject or any knowledge of the person's medical history.


----------



## Runner_up

Interesting thread. Fun to see the different perspectives out there. Reading some myths and bad science here that I haven't heard since D.A.R.E. in elementary school. 

I love drugs. They're incredibly fun, and exceptionally beneficial when used in a thoughtful and responsible manner. Like anything in life they are best when enjoyed in moderation. Funny how many folks say fearful and ignorant things about "drug" users, and then go home to drink themselves in a stupor multiple nights a week, "cannot function without coffee", or need cigarette breaks to regulate their mood.

I cultivate and grow cannabis for my own consumption, and smoke everyday. I happen to be well read, intelligent, and successful in both private and professional life. Go figure. Growing cannabis is a super fun and rewarding hobby. Smoking it is, too. ☺

I have used LSD maybe 7 or 8 times, twice with a very high dosage. A bunch of fun trips, and a couple that were eye opening. I much prefer magic mushrooms though, which I definitely do not grow myself () and have used a pretty fair amount of. Mushrooms are incredible - life altering in the best of ways.


----------



## inferno

LostHighway said:


> US law enforcement is using ketamine to control suspects. In most cases it is administered after the suspect is already in restraints. Laws differ by state, most states require that paramedics administer the drug but I believe there are situations where law enforcement without much in the way of medical credentials is administering it. This is without consent by the subject or any knowledge of the person's medical history.



why are they doing this?? to calm them down? 
why not just chloroform them like back in the good old days?


----------



## Nemo

LostHighway said:


> US law enforcement is using ketamine to control suspects. In most cases it is administered after the suspect is already in restraints. Laws differ by state, most states require that paramedics administer the drug but I believe there are situations where law enforcement without much in the way of medical credentials is administering it. This is without consent by the subject or any knowledge of the person's medical history.


Sounds crazy to me.

As you allude to, lots that can wring from a safety point of view.

There are alsoalso stories of gangs taking K before a fight because the analgesic effect makes them feel invincible.


----------



## chinacats

LSD, macro or micro depending on situation) is by far my favorite "drug"...p cubensis, and mj are also very good. Legalize it...

As to weed getting stronger, I call bs. First I smoked in the 70's was Columbian gold, Panama red, black Jamaican...new strains can be high thc but most are bred for terpines nowadays. Legal here recreational and medical. Genetics are good but folks have no clue about the curing process...I ***** all the time. Will say that prices here are low...oz's at 150 down to 1/8's for 25. Don't so much care for all the concentrates but they've got the edible thing figured out.


----------



## LostHighway

inferno said:


> why are they doing this?? to calm them down?
> why not just chloroform them like back in the good old days?



In theory to prevent self-injury, but in practice it is just the easiest path to a compliant subject.


----------



## inferno

LostHighway said:


> In theory to prevent self-injury, but in practice it is just the easiest path to a compliant subject.



i dont think ketamine is the right tool for the job. its a "dissociative" made for knocking out horses 
if they just want a compliant subject just give them ambien. and they will tell you everything you want to know too.


----------



## inferno

-snip-


----------



## inferno

-more snip-


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## inferno

-even more snip-


----------



## sododgy

I'm going to preface this by saying that I started using drugs far, far, too early. I was already doing psychs by my early teens.

This is largely in part to the DARE program. I had a few friends that were smoking weed when I was in 6th grade, a year after we got drilled with DARE. When they didn't lose their minds and murder their families, and told me they just had a great time, I decided to join in when they offered. I was immediately blown away by how hard I'd been lied to. Cannabis wasn't a gateway, the realization that adults were deliberately lying to me was. At that point I needed to know what else I'd been lied to about...

LSD is my one true chemical love. Will try oral DMT at some point, and have only one night's worth of smoking DMT, but hot damn I can't wait to get back there. I had been drinking after a shift and wound up at an after party and spent a good chunk of time blasting off here and there, but will for sure be going back sober next time. Ketamine gets a ****** rap because of the way some folks use it, but is a wildly powerful experience, especially when paired with LSD. Low dose shrooms are great fun, but I haven't gone heroic with them in a very long time. They were just too confusing and I never walked away with things to work on like I did with L. I was also a much bigger disaster back then though, so I'm eager to dive deep with a better head.



inferno said:


> regarding the mythical ego death. this is where you end up if you take a lot of/too much of, i guess, any psychedelic.
> 
> its gets weirder and weirder until it just overloads your mind. and from what i have read, its the state where you simply stop understanding that you are who you are, or a human at all, you simply dont know/understand that you exist anymore. so for all practical purposes you think you are dead. i dont even know if one can "think" in the regular sense at that point. you might just be able to observe. i have also seen it described as "the void".
> 
> i think other drugs are capable of this too. different sleeping pills and similar stuff. it might not have any kind of healing effect after though.



This is nothing even remotely close to ego death (as was mentioned dissolution is a much better term) in my experience(s). It's the exact opposite of confusion. This isn't to say that you suddenly have all the knowledge or something, it just ceases to matter. What makes you you, the self, *your* consciousness melts away and what's left realizes its actually part of *the* consciousness. It's not that you can't think, but there's no need. There's no reason to ponder anything when you can just be, free of any need, want, desire, worry, anything. It's like being part of a stream of pure energy, and that energy is thought. Not specific thoughts (what's that, who am I, what's the definition of the word is, etc), but thought as existence. The same experience can be reached through meditation according to many, just in a slower non rocket ship way. This is obviously my subjective take. It's the most beautiful, calming, and comforting experience I've ever felt.

The attempts to get there in my late teens were anything but..my self did not want to let go, and that's the scary part.

So yeah, I guess for me it doesn't occur when you take too much, it's when you take just exactly enough, and have your **** together enough.

Bill hicks summed it up super succinctly in his bit on drugs in the news. 



inferno said:


> i dont think ketamine is the right tool for the job. its a "dissociative" made for knocking out horses
> if they just want a compliant subject just give them ambien. and they will tell you everything you want to know too.



Ketamine was developed for, and it's most widespread use has always been, humans. It was an alternative to PCP with far less undesirable qualities. It's still the primary anesthetic for children and the elderly due to its physical safety. Ever been put under for any surgery? You almost certainly had Ketamine in the cocktail they used.

Yes, it's used for vetinary purposes as well, but it wasn't developed for that.



Nemo said:


> Sounds crazy to me.
> 
> As you allude to, lots that can wring from a safety point of view.
> 
> There are alsoalso stories of gangs taking K before a fight because the analgesic effect makes them feel invincible.



Due to the massive motor function issues that come with basically any effective dose of K, I can't see this being useful in any way. It's literally the last drug I can imagine helping in a fight lol



chinacats said:


> LSD, macro or micro depending on situation) is by far my favorite "drug"...p cubensis, and mj are also very good. Legalize it...
> 
> As to weed getting stronger, I call bs. First I smoked in the 70's was Columbian gold, Panama red, black Jamaican...new strains can be high thc but most are bred for terpines nowadays. Legal here recreational and medical. Genetics are good but folks have no clue about the curing process...I ***** all the time. Will say that prices here are low...oz's at 150 down to 1/8's for 25. Don't so much care for all the concentrates but they've got the edible thing figured out.



People are breeding for terps now, but that's the last what...six years, maybe? Three that it's blown up? You look at many years before that that selective breeding was done primarily with potency as the end goal. This isn't to say that landrace sativas aren't out there dropping dicks in the dirt, but those were also strains getting their full expression in their natural habitat. Most people in the states aren't ever going to experience a real true sativa (or narrow leaf drug variety if we're gonna get real), regardless of what the bud tender tells them it is. No one is commercially pumping out 16+ week NLD varietals, and in the states it's all hybrid at this point.

I grew for a few years, and will be getting back to it soon, but I think it's far less about people understanding about curing, and more about them just jot giving a ****. I watched so many growers rush through a quick dry/cure just because they wanted money by the time harvest was up, and knew if it looked good it would still sell.


----------



## sododgy

ModRQC said:


> Huh?
> 
> Psychedelic means « manifestation of the soul ». The interesting thing being that « mind » is a further addition originating from scientific thinking, where « soul » is much too « loaded » (with religious meanings) a word to befit scientific apparatus.
> 
> Lifting of the veil is somehow of a play with words, probably by those who advocate that drugs make for spiritual experiences. They don’t. Settings might though - if you’re soft enough that some candles and music and the likes can bewitch you into thinking you’ve had the revelation of your life.
> 
> With « manifestation of the soul », though, one can understand that, while the manifestation is as honest a representation of one’s soul as can be, it’s still far to be imparted with any kind of truth or revelation.




You seem to be confusing spiritual experience with spiritual enlightenment. 

Psychedelic drugs absolutely can (can, not do) make for spiritual experiences, and that's exactly why they're been so heavily used as part of rituals for various cultures since, I don't know, forever? To say that it's simply soft people and the setting doing it is to just openly **** all over any culture with shamanic rituals, and the experiences of the untold number of humans who've taken part in such. IMO it's also exactly why we're finding them so useful as modern therapeutic tools (which one could argue is essentially what other cultures have used them as). 

A person doesn't have to walk away with some truth or revelation to have a spiritual experience.


----------



## inferno

whats weirder: the spirit molecule or acid, in your opinion? are these similar at all?


----------



## sododgy

inferno said:


> whats weirder: the spirit molecule or acid, in your opinion? are these similar at all?




Keep in mind, I've got 20 years of LSD experience, and one night of drunkenly blasting off multiple times.

That said, 100% DMT. Even when I've had full hallucinations on L, meaning I'm immobile and everything real around me is gone, L still feels so much less foreign. Even in that point before ego death, but also in full blown hallucinations, L feels more grounded and based on the reality you know, but exaggerated and different.

My DMT experience could be largely shaped by reading McKenna and others before trying it, but it absolutely feels like a completely foreign dimension. I also experienced entities (what McKenna called machine elves), though we didn't communicate that I can recall. The first blast off I don't remember anything after phasing in, and phasing out. I was likely too drunk, and it too powerful. The second time is when I distinctly remember seeing the elves. They were super playful, and kind of danced aroud/toyed with me the way people not tripping sometimes do to people who are tripping if that makes any sense. They had long slender humanoid like bodies, and were wearing venetian court jester masks with long upturned noses. Think Gonzo from the Muppets but basically straight with an upswing towards the end. Also, welcoming grins on the masks, so it looked like they were laughing.

Towards the end we had decided to to just pack a huge bowl for three of us and pass it around, so I stayed sub breakthrough level (which is still fantastic), and interestingly enough, the same three entities phased into the apartment I was in. It felt like we were making it clear that we were both comfortable in the others' space.

I know how hokey this can sound to people who haven't gone that deep, but I'm just retelling the experience. I'm also not saying DMT TAKES YOU TO ANOTHER DIMENSION DOOD, but that is absolutely how it felt.

Edit: going wildly deep on shrooms felt closer to DMT than L, but they're definitely a vin diagram of where each is similar


----------



## inferno

i have read that some shrooms are even more powerful than a full on spirit molecule ride. those are the azurescens and cyanescens types. at high doses. 
as said before i have never tried acid. and only 3g of cubensis but i had a blast. so for me its a medicine. a brain-medicine. and i know it works. 

i love reading about other peoples experiences. and the more i read the more i understand that this should be completely legal. and it actually was.


----------



## inferno

being interested in psychedelics (and beer as of now) isn't really accepted in society. why is that? i mean why, really, is that?
what is so dangerous about these things? i just cant see it. maybe i'm retarded i dont know.


----------



## sododgy

Psychs have a funny way of getting people to question the importance of things traditional society (at this point) holds dear. That's bad for the wealthy. 

I would highly recommend reading Acid Dreams: The Complete Social History of LSD: the CIA, the Sixties, and Beyond

It's a primarily US centric account of the early spread of LSD, some of the major players, and the US government's failed attempts to weaponize it, but covers a little international involvement (beyond Hoffman's discovery obviously). At least in America's history, the outlawing of drugs was a way to subjugate minorities initially, and then other "undesirables" after the fact. The sweeping psychedelic bans were largely due to the rising unrest of the youth. The government saw a large portion of the youth start to turn boldly away from convention, and have zero interest in continuing with the system in place in any way shape or form. They wanted to live and love instead of worrying about profits and build build build. Simultaneously, others were starting to buck against the ruling system, but instead of dropping out, they were standing up. Recreational drug usage was associated with both. They couldn't have the status quo being challenged, so the next best thing is to pass laws that allow them to lock up all of these undesirables, and spread panic and propaganda to get the more conventional side of the citizens to fear not only the people, but the chemicals themselves. Lock up the ones trying to "expand their mind" so they can't spread their ideas and make sure the rest are too afraid to try things that might get them asking questions. It's never been about public health or safety, but control.


With the age of the internet, and tech leaders in places like Silicon Valley openly embracing psychedelics even just in the way of micro dosing, we're in a better position to gain traction and acceptance than ever before IMO. It's no longer authors, musicians, and wacky former professors who are coming to drug and corrupt your children. When industry leaders start openly admitting to use, and touting the benefits from such, then your straight laced folks will be a little more open and a little less scared.


----------



## juice

sododgy said:


> At least in America's history, the outlawing of drugs was a way to subjugate minorities initially


Nixon v black people, yep.


----------



## sododgy

juice said:


> Nixon v black people, yep.



Even pre Nixon, it was Anslinger vs migrant workers and jazz. That dick, who had stated marijuana was far safer than alcohol during Prohibition, turned around and rallied against it because he was losing his job as the Head of the Department of Prohibition. Blacks and Mexicans were always easy targets, and they seemed to like the stuff, so let's cause a panic! It's pretty nuts to think that a huge part of the reason we're suffering in the war on drugs nows is because one guy was being made redundant, and didn't want to lose his job. 

Anslinger and Nixon both had major studies conducted in an attempt to find the "dangers" of cannabis, both had results that were wildly opposed to the findings they wanted, so they both just made things up instead. 29 or the 30 doctors questioned in Anslinger's study found it perfectly safe. By some accounts, Nixon was so furious at the Shafer commission's findings (which recommended the decriminalization of cannabis), that he threw it in the trash in a fit of rage.


----------



## M1k3

sododgy said:


> Psychs have a funny way of getting people to question the importance of things traditional society (at this point) holds dear. That's bad for the wealthy.
> 
> I would highly recommend reading Acid Dreams: The Complete Social History of LSD: the CIA, the Sixties, and Beyond
> 
> It's a primarily US centric account of the early spread of LSD, some of the major players, and the US government's failed attempts to weaponize it, but covers a little international involvement (beyond Hoffman's discovery obviously). At least in America's history, the outlawing of drugs was a way to subjugate minorities initially, and then other "undesirables" after the fact. The sweeping psychedelic bans were largely due to the rising unrest of the youth. The government saw a large portion of the youth start to turn boldly away from convention, and have zero interest in continuing with the system in place in any way shape or form. They wanted to live and love instead of worrying about profits and build build build. Simultaneously, others were starting to buck against the ruling system, but instead of dropping out, they were standing up. Recreational drug usage was associated with both. They couldn't have the status quo being challenged, so the next best thing is to pass laws that allow them to lock up all of these undesirables, and spread panic and propaganda to get the more conventional side of the citizens to fear not only the people, but the chemicals themselves. Lock up the ones trying to "expand their mind" so they can't spread their ideas and make sure the rest are too afraid to try things that might get them asking questions. It's never been about public health or safety, but control.
> 
> 
> With the age of the internet, and tech leaders in places like Silicon Valley openly embracing psychedelics even just in the way of micro dosing, we're in a better position to gain traction and acceptance than ever before IMO. It's no longer authors, musicians, and wacky former professors who are coming to drug and corrupt your children. When industry leaders start openly admitting to use, and touting the benefits from such, then your straight laced folks will be a little more open and a little less scared.


So the new association will be "Crazy silicon valley liberals are using drugs! Save the kids!" instead of hippies and anti-war types, including minorities?


----------



## JDA_NC

House set to vote on marijuana legalization


The vote is expected sometime in September




www.politico.com





It's most likely this will become partisan tug-o-war (what's new?) to be used as fodder for the upcoming elections... but I'm still hopeful that this will one day happen!


----------



## Robert Lavacca

I completely believe that cannabis should be legal in every state right now. Used responsibly it can be very helpful for many people. And it’s definitely more healthy than alcohol. Especially since there are so many ways to use cannabis these days. You don’t even have to smoke it.

Everything else i’m not so sure on. I struggled with substance abuse in the past but only prescription pills. I haven’t tried the other stuff you guys are speaking about. The harder stuff would have to be regulated somehow or I feel some people would lose control maybe. I’ve also heard people say that micro dosing LSD has saved their lives. For me, I know I cannot use anything but cannabis because I would probably lose control myself. Cannabis however was able to help me get off of a pretty heavy anti psychotic medication that a doctor prescribed to me for sleep. After a few years I wanted to stop it but couldn’t sleep at all. After struggling for weeks I decided to try small amounts of cannabis again and it has really helped me.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

parbaked said:


> Nobel House is the sequel to Tai Pan. Takes place in the 1960s - 1980s when I was growing up in HK.
> Struan's is Jardine's.
> He also wrote King Rat which was about British POW in Malaysia...also good.



Just finished Tai Pan. Realized when reading it had seen the movie years ago. I also saw Shogun mini & King Rat movie both decades ago. I just ordered Noble House mini series.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Pakalolo you can smell it coming from houses & cars. Most is still from whoever local connection is. People trying to make a go of it medical legal, have to pay so much taxes & whatever else can be squeezed out of of them can't compete.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

When smoked weed liked sativa's Stoned but not knocked out nice high.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Anyone here remember Firesign Theater? (Hi, I'm Nick Danger,,,,,third eye!!. My client walked in,,,,she had a 38,,,, she also had a gun!)


----------



## juice

Bobby2shots said:


> Anyone here remember Firesign Theater?


I remember the name, but that's about it.


----------



## Bobby2shots

juice said:


> I remember the name, but that's about it.


A lot of us who lived through the '60's are in the same boat. (I can't remember)

Firesign Theater used to produce soundtracks to listen to while "trippin'" on acid,,,, sort of like a "radio play", but non-sensical,,,, like a dream that wanders. A bit like Monty Python skits.

Here's the "Nick Danger" soundtrack;


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Cream on headphones early Clapton 1968 tend to remember details of first couple LSD trips.


----------



## Luftmensch

inferno said:


> look into this luftmensch, i think this will provoke ego death.



 Thanks for the links. I did watch them! I am glad the Vice presenter was a self professed sceptic. I find it hard to empathise with hippy-dippy talk - its not that I dont wish for unity & love etc... it just that the language of it sounds so saccharine...



sododgy said:


> So yeah, I guess for me it doesn't occur when you take too much, it's when you take just exactly enough, and have your **** together enough.



 Sounds wise. I suppose you need just enough to induce the effects... but not so much your cognitive faculties totally lose it!



sododgy said:


> It's a primarily US centric account



Also religion. From the distance, pockets of the US look fairly puritanical. I know there is no "one" USA and that it is a patch work of cultures... but there is a strong religious component that has under pinned US history and politics. Abstinence and aversion to 'vice' is built into those religious power structures. This might not have been an overt part of the war on drugs and institutional racism but I am sure it was a guiding aspect in the background cultural fabric....


----------



## inferno

i think whats not conveyed in the toad vids is that what they experience, is that these chemicals and the experience they produce is like on the order of about a trillion billion gazillion times more powerful, weird, psychoactive than pretty much all other drugs combined. and there is just no words for it. so they can't tell us how it was. its simply too much, of everything, in all possible (and most likely impossible) ways. 

its kinda like how you would explain what infinity is to someone. you can explain it right. the framework. but no one will really really understand what infinity really means. because we can't really truly understand infinity. its too weird. 

its like if my dad ask how e is. he thinks its like being drunk, veeery drunk. but its like 1 million times more powerful than drinking all booze in the entire world at once. and you can't really explain it. there is no good way to explain it.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Religions of the world touch on this the peace that passes understanding.

The mind or ego is part of creation too. Everything is. From a science point of view right now you exist in a infinite universe spinning on a planet tilted on its axis around the sun. You are moving at great speed standing still even faster at equator. It's the spin factor that creates trade winds north & South of equator. Warm water and spin start up hurricanes. People who space walked have experienced that feeling of wonder that passes understanding.

Many in their life time in one way or another experience this. 

In eastern religions like wisdom sects of Hinduism. You are not this mind or body, you are the absolute abide as that. Surrender to what is in all moments.


----------



## naader

Tried shrooms once. Nothing on 4g, wifey took 2g and had a panic attack because the goblins growing out of the wood grain were scary.
I wanted the experience she had lol


----------



## Bobby2shots

I've never experienced a "bad trip". Coming down the morning after though, was sometimes another story.

In the '60's, a good "buzz" meant you'd enjoy the ride. Nowadays, many people put the emphasis on the degree of how completely stoned you can get. Having tried both, I have absolutely zero desire of being brain-smashed on much of todays' "extreme impact" products.

The last time I was at a party and someone passed me a joint, I got sicker than a dog, and that was it,,,, nothing "pleasant" about it whatsoever. I coughed my guts out and spent the next 2 hours bent over an outdoor handrail, barfing the remainder of my guts out. What the hell was the point?


----------



## sododgy

Bobby2shots said:


> I've never experienced a "bad trip". Coming down the morning after though, was sometimes another story.
> 
> In the '60's, a good "buzz" meant you'd enjoy the ride. Nowadays, many people put the emphasis on the degree of how completely stoned you can get. Having tried both, I have absolutely zero desire of being brain-smashed on much of todays' "extreme impact" products.
> 
> The last time I was at a party and someone passed me a joint, I got sicker than a dog, and that was it,,,, nothing "pleasant" about it whatsoever. I coughed my guts out and spent the next 2 hours bent over an outdoor handrail, barfing the remainder of my guts out. What the hell was the point?



I've never liked the term bad trip. I've had plenty of terrifying trips, but never walked away from one without something to work on. Scary, panicked, hellish, sure, but never "bad" because coming out the other side I walked away having my face rubbed in issues I'd been avoiding and now couldn't look away from.

99% of these came at a point in my life where I was not taking care of myself well in any way, and avoiding all of my problems. It's a pretty aggressive form of untrained, unprofessional, sketchy therapy, and I wouldn't recommend it, but I've got no complaints 

Edit: this is also a reason I've always preferred L to shrooms. L was very direct about "this is what you aren't dealing with, this is where you're harm, get it together", where getting lost in the sauce in shrooms was just diving in confusing psychedelic soup for me.


----------



## LiLimoon

Hi, Yes I had such an experience that I took natural drugs. I tried taking cactus, and I didn't really like the experience. After that, I searched for a long time where you can buy a quality product, and found a very cool platform called knockoutcbd.com. On this platform, a very high-quality product I really like everything I order there for a year, and my health is excellent. everything comes on time, and the price matches the quality.


----------



## martinezz

From natural stuff, I have only tried shrooms and weed. I have had mixed results with weed, with one pretty bad bad experience when I thought Im gonna have heart attack, my heart was beating like crazy and it was very unpleasant experience. Most of the time it does not have much effect on me, but mostly because i never smoke anything strong after that bad experience.
I have also once had crazy trip on shrooms, it took several hours, lots of fun, even some hallucinations, but mostly distorted or slowed down sound. The shrooms trip was very interesting, like few weeks of normla life events happened in three hours. I think this stuff should be legal, but everyone should know it still can be dangerous. I knew two guys who developed schizofreny, because they were smooking way too much weed in their teenage years.


----------



## inferno

after having done aya 30 times or so now i can recommend it. it heals your body and your soul at the very deepest levels.

actually it works at a completely different "overseeing" level than our regular reality. its like you travel 2 floors up. and can look down. and manipulate whats down there. *it cures the whole organism that is the human being*. it does not just dampens symptoms as regular meds do. it does all diseases, physical and mental. but to be honest it won't really cure any of them, but instead it *shows you* how to cure them yourself, mentally. because it shows you what causes them. and you can do it in realtime. you are given a toolbox. and with these you can fix anything you want.

but it can also completely destroy you. this can very easily turn into sometning much worse than your worst ever nightmare. yeah it takes no prisoners. it will test your mental strength. and sooner or later you will get challenged by the dark side, in one way or another. and then you need to show it whos in charge. and i dont mean that it feels kinda sad or so. i mean that you end up in a place much worse than hell. and for you its real. and you need to fight yourself out of it. mentally. but when thats done its all good. aside from that you feel good, _for real_. for the first time in your life.

duration is about 0-30min comeup with ultra extreme confusion at the end of that (because sound/vision/colors/taste/temperature/feelings/the whole universe/everything) just melts into one.
then its turns into the calmest of the calm and you experience the actual aya experience for maybe 30min to 2h or so depending on dose.
and then you puke and then it stops. 
then its maybe 30min to 1,5h of afterglow/comedown/contemplation which is the part where where you think of the changes you will implement in your life.

that being said i've read about people having 8h experiences. never seen it myself though. but i guess if you do a lot of it. that will happen.

this is not like blow/speed/smack/x where the feeling is synthetic, basically just glued on top of your reality. fake. this is for real. you feel good from inside. your mind is truly clear (for the very first time) but at the same time also very disconnected from "regular reality". since our regular reality is just a tiny bit, maybe 0,5% of the whole, true reality. and you now have access to the whole true reality.

also its very beautiful. and it feels so natural. its feels like the most natural thing in the world.

also if aya is working: sooner or later you will throw up. usually a lot, and very deep, from the very deepest part of your body. no joke. and all those bad feelings, problems, diseases, metal issues, yeah pretty much everything bad in your life. all that ****, you will puke out in a bucket!!  this is very healing!

now aya doesn't always work. you need to eat before taking it otherwise the stomach will not absorb it. i eat nuts and apples and noodles. and you definitely can't just eat what you want since this is a very powerful mao inhibitor. and eating the wrong things here in combination with any maoi can/will kill you. so dont forget that. its important. this is no joke.


----------



## ModRQC

A toolbox with an angle grinder?


----------



## inferno

no this one comes without the angle grinder.

you can become an angle grinder if you want to though. i guess. maybe. usually you dont get to choose that much though. it gets chosen for you. you get to experience it though.

i often become this animal that has a very coarse scaly purple skin. i dont know what animal it is. and i dont think it exists regularly.
but yeah i do become that. and i guess most people would **** their pants when seeing that but i just accept it. feels good when that happens.


----------



## soigne_west

inferno said:


> after having done aya 30 or so



This explains so much


----------



## inferno

soigne_west said:


> This explains so much



the elixir of life


----------



## Bigbbaillie

Some of you shouldn't be so scared about psychedelics imo. I'm not going to say the shroom deity is going to come and solve your spiritual malaise. But I will say that a handful of the best experiences of my life have occurred while on psychedelics. They offer a great opportunity for deeply intimate interpersonal and intrapersonal connection while also providing arguably the most novel experiences this world has to offer (really nothing like it). Not saying you should go and do Ayahuasca tomorrow, but a gram of Cubensis is at worst going to give you a stomach ache and increased anxiety for a few hours; start slow and feel out your physiology and you will be fine.

Furthermore, pretty much every classical psychedelic promotes neurogenesis in various parts of the brain by promoting the release of neurotrophic factor (Science). Not only is there a proven biological mechanism demonstrating the universally beneficial nature of psychedelics but we also know that some psychedelics show promise as treatments for disorders such as depression and PTSD. Focusing on the realm of psychedelics also ignores the preexisting body of knowledge within pharmaceuticals confirming the positive effects of all kinds of drugs in treating all kinds of illnesses. Pharmaceutical companies, while definitely not the most ethical, don't just sell addiction as some of you claimed. Without Pharma plenty of people would be living much worse lives, or might not be living at all. 
Takeaway: REGARDLESS OF YOUR OPINION, DRUGS ARE NOT UNIVERSALLY BAD. The general lack of discipline or knowledge of risks within those who abuse substances is a much larger problem than the drugs themselves (sounds like a people problem, not a chemical problem.)

Also if you drink alcohol and believe marijuana or psychedelics are somehow more harmful, you are actually poorly informed (Here's Why!) I think we all know how prohibition doesn't work, so why ban the less harmful and more pleasurable alternatives!?!?! Makes sense... cough cough

I dream of a world where people can access their vice of choice in a regulated manner which ensures accurate dosing and chemical integrity (People frequently die from inaccurate dosing or mislabeled drugs). Where people learn about the factual benefits and consequences instead of being afraid because of stories. Surrounding these beautiful experiences with mystical negativity doesn't help anyone. So what if you are inducing a pleasurable and novel experience through chemical means, chemicals drive your behavior and emotions anyways so there really isn't much of a difference. Have fun and don't be scared to try new things and take risks.

TLDR; Relax and have some fun, your brain is more likely to benefit from mild explorations in the world of psychedelics than it is to be harmed by them.


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## DavidPF

inferno said:


> this animal that has a very coarse scaly purple skin. i dont know what animal it is.


We can probably narrow this down according to whether it can fly, what it eats, whether it has horns (and how many), and whether it's capable of binocular vision.


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## ModRQC

Sit with yourself ten minutes, let it become a few hours, see what happens.

Drugs are best defined as angle grinders, lest they create new angles.

Not against, experimented a lot, still use, but there’s a time for big revelations about yourself and drugs are likely not going to take any part into it. They could hinder it from cognition, rather. When they do frequently reveal things about yourself is usually when you have a problem: delusions.


----------



## KO88

inferno said:


> after having done aya 30 times or so now i can recommend it. it heals your body and your soul at the very deepest levels.
> 
> actually it works at a completely different "overseeing" level than our regular reality. its like you travel 2 floors up. and can look down. and manipulate whats down there. *it cures the whole organism that is the human being*. it does not just dampens symptoms as regular meds do. it does all diseases, physical and mental. but to be honest it won't really cure any of them, but instead it *shows you* how to cure them yourself, mentally. because it shows you what causes them. and you can do it in realtime. you are given a toolbox. and with these you can fix anything you want.
> 
> but it can also completely destroy you. this can very easily turn into sometning much worse than your worst ever nightmare. yeah it takes no prisoners. it will test your mental strength. and sooner or later you will get challenged by the dark side, in one way or another. and then you need to show it whos in charge. and i dont mean that it feels kinda sad or so. i mean that you end up in a place much worse than hell. and for you its real. and you need to fight yourself out of it. mentally. but when thats done its all good. aside from that you feel good, _for real_. for the first time in your life.
> 
> duration is about 0-30min comeup with ultra extreme confusion at the end of that (because sound/vision/colors/taste/temperature/feelings/the whole universe/everything) just melts into one.
> then its turns into the calmest of the calm and you experience the actual aya experience for maybe 30min to 2h or so depending on dose.
> and then you puke and then it stops.
> then its maybe 30min to 1,5h of afterglow/comedown/contemplation which is the part where where you think of the changes you will implement in your life.
> 
> that being said i've read about people having 8h experiences. never seen it myself though. but i guess if you do a lot of it. that will happen.
> 
> this is not like blow/speed/smack/x where the feeling is synthetic, basically just glued on top of your reality. fake. this is for real. you feel good from inside. your mind is truly clear (for the very first time) but at the same time also very disconnected from "regular reality". since our regular reality is just a tiny bit, maybe 0,5% of the whole, true reality. and you now have access to the whole true reality.
> 
> also its very beautiful. and it feels so natural. its feels like the most natural thing in the world.
> 
> also if aya is working: sooner or later you will throw up. usually a lot, and very deep, from the very deepest part of your body. no joke. and all those bad feelings, problems, diseases, metal issues, yeah pretty much everything bad in your life. all that ****, you will puke out in a bucket!!  this is very healing!
> 
> now aya doesn't always work. you need to eat before taking it otherwise the stomach will not absorb it. i eat nuts and apples and noodles. and you definitely can't just eat what you want since this is a very powerful mao inhibitor. and eating the wrong things here in combination with any maoi can/will kill you. so dont forget that. its important. this is no joke.




How did you take?

Once I had ritual with shaman and it was totally doferent then Santo daime...

With shaman I talk to something in Santo Daime case it was more like trans.

With shaman it was 4h of interesting discussion  black jaguar on my feet which was pretty scary...


----------



## KO88

@inferno btw no diet before? I had like hardcore diet no salt no meat no onion no garlic no sugar no sex before and was totally OK with stomach but many people only  all night with almost nothing... (I ask them and they said they didnt follow the diet)


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## inferno

KO88 said:


> btw no diet before? I had like hardcore diet no salt no meat no onion no garlic no sugar no sex before and was totally OK with stomach but many people only  all night with almost nothing... (I ask them and they said they didnt follow the diet)



it doesn't matter. the puking is because of the tannins in the plants. it needs to be filtered several/many times.
you will still puke but for completely other reasons.



KO88 said:


> How did you take?
> 
> Once I had ritual with shaman and it was totally doferent then Santo daime...
> 
> With shaman I talk to something in Santo Daime case it was more like trans.
> 
> With shaman it was 4h of interesting discussion  black jaguar on my feet which was pretty scary...



no shamans for me. the plants are the teachers and all that is needed i think. 
also i dont regard it as a religious/spirital experience. i think of it like any other medicine, it just works on a different level.

imo its better to be a jaguar than seeing it


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## MarcelNL

@inferno btw no diet before? I had like hardcore diet no salt no meat no onion no garlic no sugar no sex before and was totally OK with stomach but many people only  all night with almost nothing... (I ask them and they said they didnt follow the diet)
[/QUOTE]

the diet is a.o. advocated to prevent a potential hypertensive crisis that may be caused due to thyramins that may have a larger effect due to the MAO inhibiting effects of the vine extracts in the ayahuasca mixture


----------



## inferno

this is correct. there is also the risk of serotonin syndrome since maois will interact with a lot of stuff. especially regular meds.

there is a list of what can be eaten and what cannot be eaten. this is a reversible short acting maoi too and it only affects one of the types of mao unlike most pharmaceutical maoi, which are a lot more dangerous.


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## Keith Sinclair

inferno said:


> being interested in psychedelics (and beer as of now) isn't really accepted in society. why is that? i mean why, really, is that?
> what is so dangerous about these things? i just cant see it. maybe i'm retarded i dont know.



Yeh Inferno your retarded go out & get your wing suit glide between granite peaks at speed.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Who's with me for a DC trip?


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## MarcelNL

diet coke or washington?


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

MarcelNL said:


> diet coke or washington?


Weed is legal in Washington DC.


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## why-am-i-bleeding

Following


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## inferno

Keith Sinclair said:


> Yeh Inferno your retarded go out & get your wing suit glide between granite peaks at speed.



but. but it looks so dangerous.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Know what living on the edge junkie is. That's why liked watching proximity wing suit flying on line. In that sport if you mess up your dead. Even some of the early well prepared guys are no longer with us. 

Also liked sudden impact show on TV says something of my warped mentality.


----------



## inferno

Keith Sinclair said:


> Know what living on the edge junkie is. That's why liked watching proximity wing suit flying on line. In that sport if you mess up your dead. Even some of the early well prepared guys are no longer with us.
> 
> Also liked sudden impact show on TV says something of my warped mentality.



yeah i know what you mean. it seems to be close to a 100% death rate, sooner or later. it seems really cool to try though. i heard you have to do 100 regular plane jumps before you get to try base/wingsuit.

aya i think would be more powerful as an experience. on the order of a million or so. yeah this is weird. but so beautiful. and so healing.
that story about the purple scaled animal. i think its some kind of reptile. yeah that was no joke. i think its my "true lifeform" somehow. and its completely real. it wont go away by rubbing your eyes or anything. and i can feel the scales. think alligator scales. but a bit more drop formed shape with a little black tail on the end. and when that happens its one hell of a ride. its far far out of this universe. there are different worlds. closed eye and open eye. the purple animal is open eye. closed eye its the other universe.

yeah but then again it might just be inside my head  who knows.

once i had this ultra weird experience. i felt like my whole body turned into this manga japanese party neighbourhood block somehow. with music, neon signs, and smells and everything. but it turned out i was the party place. i'm the party street. my body is the party street. and all the bacteria and viruses and toxin were having a party in my body. on my dime (my health).

so it was decieded i need to kick this **** out, once and for all. me, the organism that i am, need to be cleansed, the party needs to stop.
and i immediately needed to puke. and i mean puke for real, deep down from my toes even. my whole body was in acoustical/mechanical resonance and then after maybe 10 minutes of this with the puking i managed to get rid of all the bacteria, viruses, toxins that were feasting on my body. aka the party place. the party was over.

i have never felt better than this in my entire life. i was laughing out loud like a mental patient while puking. and the effect was lasting. several months.
it was then i understood that viruses and bacteria and basically all diseases can only operate in our bodys if we let them. our minds is the cpu. and whats deciedes things. and if we want to get rid of crap X, the its ****ing gone. easy as that. because these are very basic life forms, they dont even have brains. and they have no chance when a whole human wants them out/dead.

i'm not saying it will work like this for you. but it might. it could. it did for me.


----------



## sododgy

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Weed is legal in Washington DC.



Come on out to OR where it's been legal, and basically everything else is now decriminalized. 

If I'm found with under 40 hits of L or 12 grams of shrooms, I get the equivalent of a $100 ticket.


----------



## inferno

Here is the original link -

http://ayahuascasafety.org/?page_id=13

And the article -

Meds to avoid with Ayahuasca
Is it really dangerous to combine some pharmaceutical drugs with Ayahuasca?

YES. Unlike food interactions, whose consequences are usually unlikely to be serious, interaction with pharmaceutical drugs and meds (including some over-the-counter drugs and certain herbs) can be potentially life-threatening.. The combination of MAOIs and other serotonin agonists or precursors poses a particularly severe risk of a life-threatening serotonin syndrome episode.

These drugs and meds can be dangerous with Ayahuasca:

other MAOIs
SSRI’s (any selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor)
antihypertensives (high blood pressure medicine)
appetite suppressants (diet pills)
medicine for asthma, bronchitis, or other breathing problems; antihistamines, medicines for colds, sinus problems, hay fever, or allergies (Actifed DM, Benadryl, Benylin, Chlor-Trimeton, Compoz, Bromarest-DM or -DX, Dimetane-DX cough syrup, Dristan Cold & Flu, Phenergan with Dextromethorphan, Robitussin-DM, Vicks Formula 44-D, several Tylenol cold, cough, and flu preparations, and many others — any drug containing dextromethorphan/ DXM or with DM, DX or Tuss in its name.)
CNS (central nervous system) depressants (xanax, ativan, etc)
vasodilators
antipsychotics
barbiturates
alcohol
Illegal or recreational drugs that are VERY dangerous to combine with MAOIs:

- cocaine
- amphetamines (meth-, dex-, amphetamine), ephedrine, MDMA (Ecstasy), MDA, MDEA, PMA
- opiates (heroin, morphine, codeine, and especially opium)
- dextromethorphan (DXM)
- nutmeg

Illegal or recreational drugs that can be dangerous to combine with MAOIs:

- mescaline (any phenethylamine)
- barbiturates
- alcohol
- kratom
- kava
- 5-MEO-DMT

Some specific pharmaceutical drugs that should not be combined with MAOIs (some are mild risks, others serious):

- Actifed
- Adderall
- Alaproclate
- Albuterol (Proventil, Ventolin)
- Amantadine hydrochloride (Symmetrel)
- Amiflamine
- Amineptine
- Amitriptaline
- Amoxapine (Asendin)
- Atomoxedine
- Bazinaprine
- Befloxetone’
- Befol
- Benadryl
- Benmoxinb (Nerusil, Neuralex)
- Benylin
- Benzedrine
- Benzphetamine (Didrex)
- Bicifadine
- Brasofensine
- Brofaromine (Consonar)
- Buprenorphine
- Bupropion (Wellbutrin)
- Buspirone (BuSpar)
- Butriptyline
- Carbamazepine (Tegretol, Epitol)
- Chlorpheniramine
- Chlor-Trimeton
- Cimoxetone
- Citalopram (Celexa)
- Clomipramine (Anafranil)
- Clorgyline
- Codeine
- Cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril)
- Cyclizine (Marezine)
- D-deprenyl
- Dapoxotine
- Desipramine (Pertofrane, Norpramin)
- Desvenlafaxine
- Dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine)
- Dextromethorphan (DXM)
- Dibenzepin
- Dienolide kavapyrone desmethoxyyangonin
- Diethylpropion
- Disopyramide (Norpace)
- Disulfiram (Antabuse)
- Dobutamine
- Dopamine (Intropin)
- Dosulepin
- Doxepin (Sinequan)
- Duloxetine (Cymbalta)
- Emsam
- Entacapone
- Ephedrine
- Epinephrine (Adrenalin)
- Escitalopram (Lexapro)
- Esuprone
- Etorphine
- Femoxitine
- Fenfluramine (Pondimin)
- Flavoxate Hydrochloride (Urispas)
- Fluoxetine (Prozac)
- Fluvoxamine
- Furazolidone (Furoxone)
- Guanethedine
- Guanadrel (Hylorel)
- Guanethidine (Ismelin)
- Hydralazine (Apresoline)
- Hydrazine
- 5-Hydroxytryptophan
- Imipramine (Tofranil)
- Iprindole
- Iproniazid (Marsilid, Iprozid, Ipronid, Rivivol, Propilniazida)
- Iproclozide (Sursum)
- Isocarboxazid (Marplan)
- Isoniazid (Laniazid, Nydrazid)
- Isoniazid rifampin (Rifamate, Rimactane)
- Isoproterenol (Isuprel)
- L-dopa (Sinemet)
- Ladostigil
- Lazabemide (Pakio, Tempium)
- Levodopa (Dopar, Larodopa)
- Linezolid (Zyvox, Zyvoxid)
- Lithium (Eskalith)
- Lofepramine
- Loratadine (Claritin)
- Maprotiline (Ludiomil)
- Mebanazine (Actomol)
- Medifoxamine
- Melitracen
- Meperidine (Demerol)
- Metaproterenol (Alupent, Metaprel)
- Metaraminol (Aramine)
- Metfendrazine (Inkazan)
- Methamphetamine (Desoxyn)
- Methyldopa (Aidomet)
- Methylphenidate (Ritalin)
- Metralindole
- Mianserin
- Milacimide
- Milnacipran
- Minaprine (Cantor)
- Mirtazapine (Remeron)
- Mofegeline
- Moclobemide (Aurorix, Manerix)
- Monomethylhydrazine
- Montelukast (Singulair)
- Nalbufrine
- Naloxone
- Naltrexone
- Nefazodone
- Nialamide (Niamid)
- Nisoxetine
- Nomifensine
- Norepinephrine (Levophed)
- Nortriptyline (Aventyl)
- Octamoxin (Ximaol, Nimaol)
- Oxybutynin chloride (Ditropan)
- Oxycodone
- Oxymetazoline (Afrin)
- Oxymorphone
- Orphenadrine (Norflex)
- Pargyline (Eutonyl)
- Parnate
- Paroxetine (Paxil)
- Pemoline (Cylert)
- Percocet
- Pethedine (Demerol)
- Phendimetrazine (Plegiline)
- Phenelzine (Nardil)
- Phenergen
- Phenelzine (Nardil, Nardelzine)
- Pheniprazine (Catron)
- Phenmetrazine
- Phenoxypropazine (Drazine)
- Phentermine
- Phenylephrine (Dimetane, Dristan decongestant, Neo-Synephrine)
- Phenylhydrazine
- Phenylpropanolamine (found in many cold medicines)
- Phenelzine (Nardil)
- Pirlindole (Pirazidol)
- Procarbazine (Matulane)
- Procainamide (Pronestyl)
- Protriptyline (Vivactil)
- Pseudoephedrine
- Oxymetazoline (Afrin)
- Quinidine (Quinidex)
- Rasagiline (Azilect)
- Reboxetine
- Reserpine (Serpasil)
- Risperidone
- Salbutemol
- Salmeterol
- Selegiline (Eldepryl, Emsam, Zelapar)
- Sercloramine
- Sertraline (Zoloft)
- Sibutramine
- Sumatriptan (Imitrex)
- Terfenadine (Seldane-D)
- Tegretol
- Temaril
- Tesofensine
- Tetrindole
- Theophylline (Theo-Dur)
- Thesbutiaint
- Thioridazine (Mellaril)
- Tianeptine
- Tolcapone
- Toloxatone (Humoryl)
- Tramidol
- Tranylcypromine (Parnate)
- Trazodone
- Tricyclic antidepressants (Amitriptyline, Elavil)
- Trimipramine (Surmontil)
- Triptans
- Tyrima
- Vanoxerine
- Venlafaxine (Effexor)
- Viloxezine
- Yohimbine
- Zimelidine
- Ziprasidone (Geodon)

Also avoid the following herbs for at least 48 hours before and after:

St. Johns Wort (should be avoided for at least two weeks)
Betel
Boswellia
Carrot seed
Chamomile
Curcumin
Dill seed
Ephedra
Fennel seed
Fo-Ti
Ginseng
Horny Goat Weed
Kanna
Kava
Kratom
Licorice Root
Nutmeg
Parsley seed
Rhodiola Rosea
Scotch Broom
Siberian Ginseng
Sinicuichi
Tumeric
Yerba Mate
Yohimbe


----------



## inferno

Using stimulants with MAOIs is particularly dangerous and can be potentially fatal. Using cocaine, amphetamines or MDMA (Ecstasy) with MAOIs may cause a severe increase in blood pressure, increasing the chances for stroke and cerebral hemorrhage. MAOIs may make it possible to overdose on a relatively small amount of cocaine. (A fatality has been recorded involving combination of Peganum harmala and cocaine. Fatalities resulting from combining amphetamines with pharmaceutical MAOIs are recorded in the medical literature.)

Using other serotonin agonists (SSRIs) or precursors with an MAOI can lead to serotonin syndrome. Serotinin syndrome is rare, but can be fatal. The main symptom of serotonin syndrome may be a severe and long-lasting headache (the same symptom as MAOI tyramine interaction) and/or fever (as high as 40 °C / 104 °F or more) Other symptoms of serotonin syndrome may include rapid heartbeat, shivering, sweating, dilated pupils, intermittent tremor or twitching, overactive or overresponsive reflexes, hyperactive bowel sounds, high blood pressure. Severe serotonin syndrome may lead to shock, agitated delirium, muscular rigidity and high muscular tension, abnormal blood clotting and bleeding, respiratory failure, renal failure, and seizures, and can be life-threatening. This interaction can happen even if weeks have passed between stopping the SSRI and taking the MAOI. For further information on serotonin syndrome see this web page: http://www.psychotropical.com/

Using other MAOIs with Ayahuasca may result in hypertensive crisis, convulsive seizures, fever, marked sweating, excitation, delirium, tremor, coma and circulatory collapse.

Using 5-MEO-DMT with Ayahuasca or Ayahuasca analogs can be fatal. There is a documented case of fatality combining 5-MEO-DMT with an Ayahuasca analog.

Using opiates (opium, heroin, morphine, codeine) or barbiturates with MAOIs can increase the sedative effect and result in respiratory depression. Using MAOIs with heroin or morphine can theoretically push a normal dose to the overdose threshold. Opium (whether smoked or drunk as tea) is especially dangerous to combine with MAOIs, because it contains not only morphine and codeine, but another active alkaloid called thebaine, which can cause convulsions when combined with MAOIs, and which is also a stimulant (see above paragraph on stimulants). Painkillers synthesized from thebaine (buprenorphine, etorphine, oxycodone, oxymorphone, nalbuphine, naloxone, naltrexone) should also be regarded as highly dangerous to combine with MAOIs.

Using alcohol with MAOIs may cause side effects like angina (chest pain) or headaches. The headache may mask or be mistaken for hypertensive crisis caused by MAOI interaction. MAOIs can also increase the sedative effect of alcohol.

Using diuretics with MAOIs may cause a greater drop in blood pressure than normal and increase in MAOI blood levels.

Using anesthetics with MAOIs may potentiate or increase the anesthetic effect.

Using sleeping pills or tranquilizers (major or minor) with MAOIs may increase the sedative effect.

Using nutmeg (at psychoactive levels) with MAOIs can cause hypotensive crisis (extremely low blood pressure), rapid heartbeat, unconsciousness and potentially death.

Using vasodilators with Ayahuasca may cause fainting (which carries the slight risk of choking on vomit) and increases the chances of having an experience in which one believes one is dying. Using vasodilators immediately after an Ayahuasca session also carries the risk of fainting or passing out.

Using Tricyclic antidepressants within two weeks of taking MAOIs may cause serious side effects including sudden fever, extremely high blood pressure, convulsions, and death.

Using Fluoxetine (Prozac) within five weeks of taking MAOIs may cause high fever, rigidity, high blood pressure, mental changes, confusion and hypomania.

Using Amitryptamine or Amoxipine with MAOIs may cause hyperpyretic crises, disseminated intravascular coagulation, convulsions, and death.

Using Benzedrine, Benzphetamine, Desipramine, Desoxyn, Dexedrine, Dopamine, Ephedrine (contained in Marax, Quadrinal, and other asthma drugs), Epinephrine, Guanadrel, Guanethidine, Hydralazine, Isoproterenol, L-dopa, Metaraminol, Methyldopa, Mirtazamine, Norepinephrine Oxymetazoline, Phendimetrazine, Phentermine, Phenylephrine, Phenylpropanolamine, Pseudoephedrine, Ritalin, or Venlafaxine with MAOIs may cause a hypertensive crisis (severe spike in blood pressure) which can lead to brain hemorrhage or stroke.

Using Adderall with MAOIs can result in high body temperature (hyperpyrexic crisis), severe increase in blood pressure (hypertensive crisis), seizures, and coma. (see paragraph above on stimulants)

Using Bupropion (Wellbutrin) within two weeks of taking MAOIs may cause serious side effects such as seizures.

Using Buspirone (Buspar) with MAOIs may cause high blood pressure and increased sedative effects.

Using Carbamazepine (Tegretol) with MAOIs may result in fever (hyperpyrexic crisis) and may cause seizures, or increase seizures in epileptics.

Using Citalopram with MAOIs may result in severe and sometimes fatal reactions involving elevations in blood pressure, hyperthermia, rigidity, and autonomic instability. This drug should be ceased a minimum of two weeks before taking Ayahuasca.

Using Clomipramine with MAOIs may cause high fever (hyperpyrexic crisis), seizures, disseminated intravascular coagulation, and death.

Using CNS depressants with MAOIs may increase the depressant effects.

Using Desipramine (Norpramin, Pertofrane) with MAOIs may result in hypertensive crisis, hyperpyretic crises, disseminated intravascular coagulation, convulsions, and death.

Using Dextromethorphan (DXM) at psychoactive levels with MAOIs may cause serotonin syndrome, extremely high blood pressure (hypertensive crisis), high body temperature (hyperpyrexic crisis), episodes of psychosis, and in high doses can potentially be fatal.

Using Dobutamine with MAOIs may precipitate severe hypertensive reaction.

Using Doxepin with MAOIs may cause hyperpyretic crises, disseminated intravascular coagulation, convulsions, and death.

Using Entacapone with MAOIs can stop the catalyst enzyme catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) from metabolizing levodopa to 3-O-methyldopa in the periphery, and in the brain.

Using Fenfluramine with MAOIs may result in fever (hyperpyrexic crisis).

Using Fluoxedine or Fluvaoxamine with MAOIs may result in severe and sometimes fatal reactions involving elevations in blood pressure, hyperthermia, rigidity, and autonomic instability. This drug should be ceased a minimum of two weeks before taking Ayahuasca.

Using Horny Goat Weed with MAOIs may result in hypotensive crisis (severe blood pressure drop).

Using Imipramine with MAOIs may cause hyperpyretic crises, disseminated intravascular coagulation, convulsions, and death.

Using Isoproterenol with MAOIs may precipitate severe hypertensive crisis.

Using Kava with MAOIs may result in hypotensive crisis (severe blood pressure drop).

Using Levodopa with MAOIs can stop the catalyst enzyme catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) from metabolizing levodopa to 3-O-methyldopa in the periphery, and in the brain.

Using Linezolid with MAOIs can cause serotonin syndrome.

Using Lithium with MAOIs may cause fever (hyperpyrexic crisis) and serotonin syndrome (see serotonin syndrome above).

Using Meperidine (Demerol) with pharmaceutical MAOIs has resulted in deaths from a single dose. Immediate onset of sweating, rigidity and hypertension can occur.

Using Metaproterenol or other beta-adrenergic bronchodilators with MAOIs may cause blood pressure elevation and rapid heartbeat.

Using Mirtazapine (Remeron) with MAOIs may result in hypertensive crisis.

Using Nefazodone (Serzone) may result in high fever (hyperpyrexic crisis).

Using Paroxitine (Paxil) with MAOIs may result in severe and sometimes fatal reactions involving elevations in blood pressure, hyperthermia, rigidity, and autonomic instability. This drug should be ceased a minimum of two weeks before taking Ayahuasca.

Using Sertraline with MAOIs may result in severe and sometimes fatal reactions involving elevations in blood pressure, hyperthermia, rigidity, and autonomic instability. This drug should be ceased a minimum of two weeks before taking Ayahuasca.

Using Temaril with MAOIs may increase chance of side effects.

Using Terfenadine with MAOIs may cause an increase in MAOI blood levels.

Using Theophylline with MAOIs may cause rapid heartbeat and anxiety.

Using Tolcapone with MAOIs can stop the catalyst enzyme catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) from metabolizing levodopa to 3-O-methyldopa in the periphery, and in the brain.

Using Trazodone (Desyrel) with MAOIs may result in high fever (hyperpyrexic crisis).

Using Tryptophan or L-tryptophan with MAOIs may cause disorientation, confusion, amnesia, delirium agitation, memory impairment, hypomanic signs, shivering.

Using Venlafaxine (Effexor) with MAOIs may result in hypertensive crisis or serotonin syndrome.

Using Ziprasidone (Geodon) with MAOIs may cause serotonin syndrome.

Using Zoloft (Sertraline) with MAOIs has produced fatal cases of serotonin syndrome, and can also result in fever, muscle rigidity, instability of the autonomic nervous system, delirium, and coma.

Special note to diabetics: MAOIs may change the amount of insulin or oral antidiabetic medication that you need

How long do you have to stay off contraindicated drugs before and after an Ayahuasca ceremony?


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## Keith Sinclair

Sorry out of any drugs other than coffee & beer for decades. Can you still get LSD? Pure no added crap put in it.


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## inferno

Depends on the drug. May be 24 hours, may be six months. For over the counter drugs (like antihistamines), 48 hours before and after is more than enough. For prescription drugs, two to six weeks is typical, but do not guess. Find out for sure from your doctor. Your doctor may be unfamiliar with Ayahuasca specifically, but tell him or her that you are planning to take a reversible MAOI. . Some people who plan to drink Ayahuasca in a country where it is not legal are concerned that the doctor will ask questions about the source of the MAOI and learn about an illegal activity. Doctors are bound by doctor-patient confidentiality and they would prefer to know about anything their patients are taking, legal or not. But if your doctor feels that he or she needs more information about Ayahuasca, you could refer him or her to this thread and other informational resources in this forum.

Medical consultation is especially important if you are taking Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Effexor, Zoloft or other antidepressants that affect serotonin levels, i.e. serotonin selective re-uptake inhibitors (SSRI), because these substances must be reduced gradually. Fluoxetine (Prozac) requires 8 weeks (56 days) and most other SSRIs five weeks (35 days) to clear the system.


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## inferno

i just copied all that **** ^^^^ from another forum. but hey other than that its completely safe.
edit: as we all can see. it could indeed be very dangerous.


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## Keith Sinclair

Jeeez after reading all that think stick to coffee 
Green tea, & occasional beer.

Even some friends my age take prescription drugs. Just eat healthy & keep moving.


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## inferno

Keith Sinclair said:


> Jeeez after reading all that think stick to coffee
> Green tea, & occasional beer.
> 
> Even some friends my age take prescription drugs. Just eat healthy & keep moving.



edit:
maois are no joke, they potentiate almost everything 10-100x. it is what it is.
it could very easily kill you in the most unusual and painful ways, as seen in the list.
potentially extremely dangerous.


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## Bigbbaillie

inferno said:


> imo there is only one medication worth taking.


As stated before, I'm a proponent of psychadelic's, I'm on your side. But, uhh what??

You should probably not say such ignorant things on a public space like this. There are plenty of people to whom medication is way more important than experiencing psychs or MAOI's. Like a matter of life or death. If you don't understand that you should probably read more about pharmacology. The benefits of medication's aren't shrouded in mysticism like with psychedelics either.


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## Keith Sinclair

Of coarse know that many depend on medication. Several years ago blood test showed some potential problems not enough for medication yet. Read books changed diet exercise lost weight. Don't need any meds in my 70's. 

Don't know about many of the drugs in this thread. Smoked primo weed in younger days.
Took LSD really liked that drug. Was wondering if people even have access to LSD anymore.


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## Luftmensch

inferno said:


> Using nutmeg (at psychoactive levels) with MAOIs can cause hypotensive crisis (extremely low blood pressure), rapid heartbeat, unconsciousness and potentially death.





@nutmeg


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## Bigbbaillie

Keith Sinclair said:


> Don't know about many of the drugs in this thread. Smoked primo weed in younger days.
> Took LSD really liked that drug. Was wondering if people even have access to LSD anymore.


You can order LSD (or any drug) off of the internet and have it arrive to your home in under a week if you know what you are doing. Great quality and with reviews too. The internet and dark web is a wild place.
In bulk you can buy LSD for under a dollar per dose.


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## jwthaparc

Wow never saw this thread before. I'm a former addict/alcoholic ( heroin, benzos, alcohol, mostly downers in general). I did everything though.

On my journey towards getting sober I started to mess with kratom, and kava kava, with the thought that "well it's not as bad as heroin". Though in the end I had to accept that in my particular case I use every drug to the extreme. I was eating multiple oz.s of kratom a day, and buying out the pharmacies whole inventory of kava kava, and finding different locations to buy more. So I've been off heroin about 4 years now, and off the natural stuff for about 19 months. 

Like I said I was a very extreme case, low bottom drug addict though. Using dirty needles, and couldn't imagine me going more than a day or so without changing how I feel with a substance unless I was locked up, and even then finding ways to get high. 

Maybe one day in the future I may be open to use hallucinogens again, but I'm pretty unsure that it would be a good idea in my particular case.


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## nutmeg

Luftmensch said:


> @nutmeg


That is indeed the trick!


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## inferno

Bigbbaillie said:


> As stated before, I'm a proponent of psychadelic's, I'm on your side. But, uhh what??
> 
> You should probably not say such ignorant things on a public space like this. There are plenty of people to whom medication is way more important than experiencing psychs or MAOI's. Like a matter of life or death. If you don't understand that you should probably read more about pharmacology. The benefits of medication's aren't shrouded in mysticism like with psychedelics either.



yes of course. you are right.


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## big_adventure

Keith Sinclair said:


> Of coarse know that many depend on medication. Several years ago blood test showed some potential problems not enough for medication yet. Read books changed diet exercise lost weight. Don't need any meds in my 70's.
> 
> Don't know about many of the drugs in this thread. Smoked primo weed in younger days.
> Took LSD really liked that drug. Was wondering if people even have access to LSD anymore.



Sure, LSD is pretty easy and safe to synth, and anyone with a decent knowledge of chemistry and the materials can do it. It's less popular than many other drugs among users, I believe, simply because the effect is both intense and looooooong, and there's not much you can do about it once you're in it. Also, you really have no idea how much you're getting in a given dose - I've, er, "heard" of experiences where the dose was small, having little overall effect, and where it was massive, leading to needing to be extremely careful to not get lost and such. I think that it's not really popular among dealers because there's really not a lot of money in it - very few people take it regularly, so you really wouldn't have a steady stream of cash coming in from it.

EDIT: I should be precise and say "street dealers" above. Obviously it's possible to find and there are people making money off of it, it's just not particularly profitable for street and local trade.


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## jwthaparc

big_adventure said:


> Sure, LSD is pretty easy and safe to synth, and anyone with a decent knowledge of chemistry and the materials can do it. It's less popular than many other drugs among users, I believe, simply because the effect is both intense and looooooong, and there's not much you can do about it once you're in it. Also, you really have no idea how much you're getting in a given dose - I've, er, "heard" of experiences where the dose was small, having little overall effect, and where it was massive, leading to needing to be extremely careful to not get lost and such. I think that it's not really popular among dealers because there's really not a lot of money in it - very few people take it regularly, so you really wouldn't have a steady stream of cash coming in from it.
> 
> EDIT: I should be precise and say "street dealers" above. Obviously it's possible to find and there are people making money off of it, it's just not particularly profitable for street and local trade.


Also the legal penalties can be quite strict. Making it not really worth the risk.


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## big_adventure

jwthaparc said:


> Also the legal penalties can be quite strict. Making it not really worth the risk.



Definitely true - it's highest-category illegal pretty much everywhere on the planet.


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## Bigbbaillie

Psychs are not really a hedonistic escape like a lot of other subtances either. Can't take a psychadelic to forget how much you hate your life as with benzos, opiates or stims.


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## Keith Sinclair

I heard in Oregon trying to make it legal. I wonder if I'll ever see the day. 

This is my main drug use 8 green tea bags 2 black tea bags for one gallon. Put in sun about 30 minutes. Remove bags put it in refrigerator.
Go through two gallons a week.


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## alterwisser

Keith Sinclair said:


> I heard in Oregon trying to make it legal. I wonder if I'll ever see the day.
> 
> This is my main drug use 8 green tea bags 2 black tea bags for one gallon. Put in sun about 30 minutes. Remove bags put it in refrigerator.
> Go through two gallons a week.
> View attachment 121019



Why the sun, if I may ask?

@inferno: the list of what not to eat/take with it cracked me up. I think the only thing I didn’t see on it was Avocado and Currywurst


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## jwthaparc

Keith Sinclair said:


> I heard in Oregon trying to make it legal. I wonder if I'll ever see the day.
> 
> This is my main drug use 8 green tea bags 2 black tea bags for one gallon. Put in sun about 30 minutes. Remove bags put it in refrigerator.
> Go through two gallons a week.
> View attachment 121019


Yeah. I'm into teas right now myself. Either chai tea, english breakfast tea, or green tea during the day. Then I drink seven blossoms tea (Mexican tea), or some kind of tea with valerian root in it at night.


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## Keith Sinclair

For plain cold tea, fill up gallon with room temp.
Water instead of heating up water to steep the tea, just set in the sun it is a gentle brew, easy to do & has a bright clear taste for drinking cold
tea after in the refrig a while. I grow mint sometime garnish glass. 

It is just plain tea nothing added. Only thing when making a new batch must wash the gallon jar with hot soapy water.

Green tea has many health benefits. A lady used to know would make Sun tea all the time.


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## big_adventure

jwthaparc said:


> Yeah. I'm into teas right now myself. Either chai tea, english breakfast tea, or green tea during the day. Then I drink seven blossoms tea (Mexican tea), or some kind of tea with valerian root in it at night.



Please don't call it "chai tea" - that's Starbucks talking. The Hindi word for "tea" is "chai", so you're just saying "tea tea." It's also the Russian word for tea, and a number of other languages with common indo-european roots.


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## Keith Sinclair

Mostly cold tea. Do enjoy a cup of hot tea in evening some of those special teas are really good couple drops of Hawaiian honey that's it.


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## KO88

Keith Sinclair said:


> Mostly cold tea. Do enjoy a cup of hot tea in evening some of those special teas are really good couple drops of Hawaiian honey that's it.


Have you ever tried coldbrew gyokuru? Thats so good!


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## Rangen

Pu-erh tea is a JNat-like rabbit hole.


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## KO88

Rangen said:


> Pu-erh tea is a JNat-like rabbit hole.


Dont even say... It can get scary pricey! Never drink pu erh. Japanese greens are ok that cant get much worst than gyukuro


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## Rangen

KO88 said:


> Have you ever tried coldbrew gyokuru? Thats so good!



Very interested. How much weight of tea would you use per liter/quart of water?


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## jwthaparc

big_adventure said:


> Please don't call it "chai tea" - that's Starbucks talking. The Hindi word for "tea" is "chai", so you're just saying "tea tea." It's also the Russian word for tea, and a number of other languages with common indo-european roots.


So what do I call chai tea, then? Tea? It's a specific spiced tea with cinnamon, cardamom, ginger, and some other stuff in this case. I will call it something else, just give me a good name for it.


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## big_adventure

jwthaparc said:


> So what do I call chai tea, then? Tea? It's a specific spiced tea with cinnamon, cardamom, ginger, and some other stuff in this case. I will call it something else, just give me a good name for it.



Chai masala is the name you are looking for. Masala just means "spice mix" more or less. Chai masala is the spiced sweet milky tea that Starbucks apparently decided had a too-complicated name, so they started calling it chai tea.


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## Keith Sinclair

I know that in many places in the world tea is consumed with different additives. Including milk & sugar. Don't care for either in tea. My family drank lots of ice tea when I was a kid. 
Always added sugar to it. Since I've cut out sugar my taste have changed.


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## rickbern

Finally, this thread took a turn I can follow!

I like adding two teaspoons of rose water and two teaspoons of sugar to a liter of green tea. Gives it a very mysterious flavor that seems more consistent with the tea flavor than those clove and cardamom blends.


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## KO88

Rangen said:


> Very interested. How much weight of tea would you use per liter/quart of water?



Try like 10-12g for litre. Filtered or baby water and in the fridge over night. You ll see if it s too little or enough. Drink in wine glasses


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## inferno

alterwisser said:


> Why the sun, if I may ask?
> 
> @inferno: the list of what not to eat/take with it cracked me up. I think the only thing I didn’t see on it was Avocado and Currywurst



they probably just missed it 

at least we can't say its not well researched 
i have never seen such a comprehensive list before either.

btw i like green tea too. only one bag at a time.

there is another thing you can do tea from. egyptian blue lotus. very mildly sedating and very mildly euphoric.
they used to soak it in wine in egypt. and then it gets slightly more euphoric.


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## sododgy

Keith Sinclair said:


> Sorry out of any drugs other than coffee & beer for decades. Can you still get LSD? Pure no added crap put in it.




LSD is more widely available and accessible than it's ever been. Also, LSD doesn't get cut. That's just not how it works. You can get sold doses that are another drug entirely, but you aren't going to get "cut" L. All of the strychnine rumors and **** are just that. Even the DEA says they've never had a sample test positive for it.


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## Bigbbaillie

sododgy said:


> LSD is more widely available and accessible than it's ever been. Also, LSD doesn't get cut. That's just not how it works. You can get sold doses that are another drug entirely, but you aren't going to get "cut" L. All of the strychnine rumors and **** are just that. Even the DEA says they've never had a sample test positive for it.


Yea pretty much. The main source of variability is purity and dosage. You can definitely have more or less impurities in your final batch from synthesis or a larger percentage solvent in the liquid that is being put on the sheets. Depending on how it is laid onto the paper different pieces can have wildly different doses as well.
NBOME's are pretty commonly sold as LSD, but those taste super bitter so if you know what you are doing it's pretty hard to not know. NBOME's can still be pretty fun though, but you can overdose on those so it's not as safe.


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## Keith Sinclair

The LSD I did back on the day varied quite a bit
Always a pleasure never had a so called bad trip. A couple were stronger mind altering.


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## sododgy

Bigbbaillie said:


> Yea pretty much. The main source of variability is purity and dosage. You can definitely have more or less impurities in your final batch from synthesis or a larger percentage solvent in the liquid that is being put on the sheets. Depending on how it is laid onto the paper different pieces can have wildly different doses as well.
> NBOME's are pretty commonly sold as LSD, but those taste super bitter so if you know what you are doing it's pretty hard to not know. NBOME's can still be pretty fun though, but you can overdose on those so it's not as safe.



That's the thing though, as long as multiple people have been producing clandestine LSD, crystal quality and potency (due to who's laying it) have always varied. Hoffman famously said that Owsley was the only clandestine chemist to get the crystallization process right, and never saw a sample as pure from anyone else. Batches varied from the jump, and that's why they carried nicknames back in the day. If I ever decide on a Thompson-esque run for office, my campaign will be based around making the standard dose 250ug again. 

NBOME's are a nightmare. Not on their own accord of course, just that fact that people are so willing to take that gamble if passing them off as L when there's actual potential consequence with them, all to make a few extra bucks.


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## jwthaparc

How do you guys feel about upper 3rd plateau, to 4th plateau dxm doses?

I used to love that stuff when I was a kid. The only drug I had anything close to a "spiritual experience" using surprisingly enough. I'm sober now, and even before I quit using drugs I had to stop using dxm recreationally for 2 reasons, 1 I could get better drugs, 2 my body started having a strange reaction to it somewhat similar to an allergic reaction.


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## Bigbbaillie

sododgy said:


> If I ever decide on a Thompson-esque run for office, my campaign will be based around making the standard dose 250ug again.
> 
> NBOME's are a nightmare. Not on their own accord of course, just that fact that people are so willing to take that gamble if passing them off as L when there's actual potential consequence with them, all to make a few extra bucks.


100 ug is kinda of a weird dose, although I feel like it is definitely a little more beginner friendly than the take off from a true 250 ug. 

Although I don't agree with how NBOME's are sold nowaday's, they actually can be the source of some pretty fun experiences. As long as you know what you are taking and understand that you can OD unlike with L, I really don't see the problem with it. I've had a few great trips on various NBOME's, each one is fairly unique but none are as anxiety inducing as LSD in my experience.


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## inferno

Bigbbaillie said:


> but none are as anxiety inducing as LSD in my experience.



can you develop this further?

i know nothing about acid. but in school they told us its was the most dangerous thing on earth. "like running a lawnmover over your brain" i believe was the terminology. and on youtube i have learned its the most peaceful and happy thing you could ever do.

but you say it not really so?


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## Keith Sinclair

When Sododgy mentioned Owsley couple posts back remembered that acid I took in late 
1960's was Owsley. It was awesome.


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## Bart.s

I'm from the Netherlands, so weed is available here. You can buy it at 'coffeeshops'. Tried it when I was younger. It is, however, not legal here, but 'allowed'. Don't like the effect, so I just stick to beer/rum cola. I don't have a problem with weed, I have some friends who don't drink but smoke weed sometimes.


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## boomchakabowwow

weed is so easy to grow. trimming it sucks, and it sucks bad.


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## MAS4T0

For me it's a no to everything. No caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, etc.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the categorisation of natural Vs synthetic.

I had a week in hospital not long ago and I'm still getting over the drugs. I did an IQ test while they had me on Morphine and I was down 30 points from normal. The antibiotics ruined my microbiome, and I'm still not digesting things properly.

I don't think things should be prohibited, but I think that in general we're better off staying away. My preference would be for everything to be legal, but to require a prescription. That way the supply is clean, and there can be some element of monitoring.


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## Keith Sinclair

I hear you except caffeine everything I've read green tea has many health benefits. My old man drank plenty coffee he lived to 96.

I don't take antibiotics unless absolutely need it. Eat probiotic Kim Chee & Sauerkraut.


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## banzai_burrito

Keith Sinclair said:


> I hear you except caffeine everything I've read green tea has many health benefits. My old man drank plenty coffee he lived to 96.
> 
> I don't take antibiotics unless absolutely need it. Eat probiotic Kim Chee & Sauerkraut.



Yogurt too, get you some of that nice clean protein and you can make it sweet or savory


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## Eziemniak

My cat likes lsd more than shrooms. Or whatever analogue is pushed these days.
He also says most of tryptamines are inferior to aforementioned stuff.
Despite being able to handle himself after heroic doses of psychodelics he can not somoke weed at all.
My paranoid cat thinks these drugs are prohibited because they can actually help people think for themselves.


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## MarcelNL

help that poor animal and buy him a vaporizer, works brilliant !


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## inferno

all i can say is that i'm completely healed emotionally, spiritually. psychologically. 
you would not believe. it really works.
but it might not work for other people of course. or could have the exact opposite effect.


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