# The 5000th stone recommendation thread



## sansho (Nov 3, 2021)

do i win a prize?

i'm looking for a second set of stones to leave at my other home. and also just to try something new.

i have the JKI gesshin set (ceramic 400, 2000, and 6000 soakers). it's all i've ever used.

maybe i'm using it wrong, but i haven't found much of a use for the 6000 yet. it seems to remove too much tooth for tomatoes and stuff. idk. i only seem to use 400 on knives i've never sharpened before. after that initial work, all i ever really use is 2000. this is fine for kitchen stuff, but i can't do fancy tricks like purely push cut paper towel or do little curls and circle cuts in paper very easily. i guess i only get stuff sorta sharp. i am thinking of improving this setup with a strop loaded with 1μm diamond spray. maybe that would take me to some next level. or at least be nice for maintaining edges without getting the stones out. thoughts?

-----

ok, on to my main question. a second set of stones...
*i think i want to try splash-and-go this time.*

an obvious choice is shapton stuff from MTC. seems like a respectable going on right now.

first, are the "shapton traditional" stones on MTC the same thing as "shapton pro" stones? kinda confused.

i've read a bunch of threads. a lot of people like the 500 glass. the double-thick, of course.

what about for a medium / medium-fine stone? 2000 glass? is that "good enough" to finish on?
if those are good choices, is the 16000 glass very useful? i'm skeptical about how much i'd enjoy 16k, but seems like a good deal:








Shapton Glass Knife Sharpening Stone Set (#500, #2000, #16000 and holder)


Shop Japanese knives, knife sharpening stones, Japanese tableware, kitchenware, restaurant supplies and equipments, take out containers, sushi and ramen supplies




mtckitchen.com





SG 500 (not double-thick), 2k, 16k, and the nice holder (not the cheaper field holder) for $224 right now.

or maybe go in another direction and try the JKI gesshin 1k + 6k diamond stone set?









Diamond 1k+6k Stone Set


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements This diamond stone set includes 1x 1000 grit diamond stone, 1x 6000 grit diamond stone, 1x stone holder, and 2x nagura for use with diamond stones. These stones are true splash-and-go stones that work well on every type of steel we have tried...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com





or those snazzy looking nanohone plate stones?

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also, right now, i'm using a cheap stone fixer from JKI.









Stone Fixer #100


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements This is a traditional stone fixer, like those that are commonly used in Japan. This one is 100 grit, and can be used to flatten anything from coarse to fine stones. These stone fixers need a brief soak before use, and will eventually also need to...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com





suggestions for a diamond plate to try? obviously the nanohone ones are dope, but idk if i'm ready to spend 300+ on one yet.

thanks


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## tcmx3 (Nov 3, 2021)

I like the Shapton Glass stuff a lot, but Id probably buy 500 1000 4000 or 500 2000 4000 (but probably the first)

the JNS set of 3 stones also strikes me as a really good deal.


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## ian (Nov 3, 2021)

Atoma plates are the old standby. Use them all the time.

Naniwa pro (formerly known as Chosera) stones are awesome. I generally like them better than Shapton glass, although the SG500’s nice.

JKI’s 4k soaker is amazing. My favorite edge stone for carbon. I have the 6k as well and don’t use it much.

Also, I have a SG16k and use it rarely. It’s probably just a toy you’ll never really use, so I wouldn’t bother.

Getting more stones won’t necessarily improve your edges immediately, but if they’re fun and make you want to sharpen more, then they will!


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## rmrf (Nov 3, 2021)

ian said:


> Atoma plates are the old standby. Use them all the time.



What do you use atoma for? Thinning and flattening stones? Are they really fast at removing material and don't need flattening?


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## ian (Nov 3, 2021)

rmrf said:


> What do you use atoma for? Thinning and flattening stones? Are they really fast at removing material and don't need flattening?



They’re for flattening stones. They’re very fast when new, less fast (but still effective) when the diamonds wear down, which they do eventually. They never need flattening: it’s some diamonds stuck to a plate, not diamonds embedded in a binder or something.


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## M1k3 (Nov 3, 2021)

Glass 500 and 4k hands down should be in the mix.


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## sansho (Nov 3, 2021)

based on advice received, i'm leaning towards glass 500 (dubba thicc), 1k, 4k, and that holder as my second set of stones.

and an atoma plate, _but which one?_ lowest grit i'd probably ever use it on is my 400 gesshin soaker.

also, anyone ever use that JKI 1k+6k diamond set i mentioned before? thoughts as a general purpose set?








Diamond 1k+6k Stone Set


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements This diamond stone set includes 1x 1000 grit diamond stone, 1x 6000 grit diamond stone, 1x stone holder, and 2x nagura for use with diamond stones. These stones are true splash-and-go stones that work well on every type of steel we have tried...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com


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## Barmoley (Nov 3, 2021)

I would go with JKI diamond set. These are very good, true splash and go and 6k leaves an edge with some byte to it. Feels more like 4K regular stone bite wise. In addition you wouldn’t need to flatten them for a while. You already have a nice set of synthetic stones, so try something different, I think you’ll like them and if not they are easy to pass on.


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## sansho (Nov 3, 2021)

hah, how did you know i wanted to be talked into trying something different?

how do you flatten em though?


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## Barmoley (Nov 4, 2021)

Well, Jon has said he only needed to flatten it once a year of use. His use is not our use, so I doubt you’ll need to flatten it anytime soon. The included nagura helps flattening it to some degree as well. When you eventually need to flatten it sic powder on glass will probably do it. You can always ask Jon for his suggestion as he would know best and is a great guy to talk to as well.


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## Michi (Nov 4, 2021)

sansho said:


> and an atoma plate, _but which one?_ lowest grit i'd probably ever use it on is my 400 gesshin soaker.


140 Atoma works for everything from 320 to 8000+.


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## Kawa (Nov 4, 2021)

Why would you get glass 500 double thicc?
Are you shaprening like a pro, like multiple knives a week?
Do you want to pass the stones to your kids in 50 years?
Yes, then double thicc


Do you just sharpen once in a while? And do you want to try something new in 30 years?
Then the regular one is just fine.


The ones having the double thicc are the people around here who eat stones for breakfast


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## LostHighway (Nov 4, 2021)

Per @M1k3 the Shapton Glass 500 and 4K are the best stones in that series and a jump you can make most of the time. I'm less enthusiastic about the Shapton Glass 1k and 2K . I prefer the Shapton Pro 1k and 2k in the mid grits. What MTC Kitchen is calling traditional is effectively the same as the Pro. The 2k especially has fairly good feel for a splash and go and is fast for the grit rating. The traditional 1k is probably a bit coarser than an actual 1k and is arguably superfluous if you have the SG500, however, my SP1k still sees plenty of use. I haven't used the SG 16K but I believe @inferno has if you want another opinion..
Per @ian buy an Atoma 140 or 400 for a flattening plate. The Nanohone plates may be very good, I haven't tried them, but they are decidedly not inexpensive


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 4, 2021)

My three currently most used stones are Shapton Glass 500, 2k, and 4k. I often finish on the 2k but also really like the 4k. I'm still bouncing back and forth on which finish I prefer and on what knives for what uses. So that means, at least for me, they are both good edges and neither is a clear stand out, just different.

If I had to pick one out of my three, it would be the 2k. I'd hate giving up the other two, but I could work around the 500 through other means and I could surely get by with the 2k edge.

I agree that the standard 500 will probably last the casual sharpener a good long time.


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## cotedupy (Nov 4, 2021)

I have a double-sided 140/400 atoma, but as @Michi said - I'd err on the side of 140 instead of 400 if only getting one.

I also tried pretty much every SG a few weeks back, when someone I know here brought them over... After the excellent 4k they get increasingly silly for knives. Can't remember much about the 6k, but 8, 12, 16, 30 were all a bit naff (imo). They're doubtless great for tools and razors, but for knives I massively prefer natural stones at that kind of level.

And yes... SG500 is, as everyone says, ace!


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## ian (Nov 4, 2021)

Also, Atoma 140s magically turn into Atoma 400s after a while!


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## sansho (Nov 4, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Why would you get glass 500 double thicc?
> Are you shaprening like a pro, like multiple knives a week?
> Do you want to pass the stones to your kids in 50 years?
> Yes, then double thicc
> ...



$41.60 vs $54.40
$12.80 for basically double the stone? seems like a no brainer to me. i've wasted more on a bad meal at mcdonalds.
also, if i have double the material to start with, i can flatten it all the time OCD style without feeling guilty.


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## inferno (Nov 4, 2021)

i dont have the 16k glass, but i do have the 12k pro. its a good stone. but probably overkill for most uses.

i like the 500DT, 1k pro, 2k pro, 3k glass, 4k glass.

if you have the 500 you dont need any 1k.
2k i only use for cheap soft ss like germans and globals.
3k for ingot ss.
4k for powder and carbon.
6-8k for carbons usually. i mean i like this range better than 4k for carbons, since they can handle it.

at the 4k point its starts getting scary sharp. the 3k level, while its is very sharp the 4k is definitely a step up.
the 4k is a much slower stone though, and its clogs faster. the 3k is quite a bit faster, and i feel its much more clog resistant.

so i would simply get the 500 and then the 3 and the 4k  they are good for different steels.


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## esoo (Nov 4, 2021)

I love the tooth of the Shapton Glass 3000. Creates a very nice toothy edge. I follow that with doing a stropping motion on a Shapton Pro 12K which refines the edge nicely.


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## Kawa (Nov 4, 2021)

sansho said:


> $41.60 vs $54.40
> $12.80 for basically double the stone? seems like a no brainer to me. i've wasted more on a bad meal at mcdonalds.
> also, if i have double the material to start with, i can flatten it all the time OCD style without feeling guilty.



I have to admit, didn't check the price


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## ModRQC (Nov 4, 2021)

Not so bad. For us Canadians there's basically 35$ overhead for the SG500 DT.

Still worth it. It's basically half the price more for twice of it.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 10, 2021)

I noticed the MTC SG deal and nearly pulled the trigger, but based on this thread, I'm thinking the double thick 500 (back in stock in NY showroom on Friday) plus the 2000 and 4000. Was originally looking at the 500, 2000, 16000 set for $224, but sounds like the 16000 isn't worth getting and I'd miss out on the double thick (but you do get the holder). Maybe I should get the set plus the 4000. Dammit I'm confused again.


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## sansho (Nov 10, 2021)

i was going to get the SG 500 dubba thicc, SG 4k, and then either the SG 2k or SG 3k. and maybe a holder.

but instead i got the jki Diamond 1k+6k Stone Set.
and medium and fine rust erasers for the heck of it.
to those curious, here's a reasonable place to start reading:






Diamond Stone Set Group Buy Nov. 2015


It seems like there is a decent bit of interest for another run of these... lets try to get a list together and get some ordered. If you're interested, please post here and we will contact you shortly. If you have already posted your interest, i will ask that you post again below, as it will...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





also worth reading the other threads linked in that thread's OP.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 10, 2021)

Thanks for the update and info @sansho, I've got my homework assignment 

FWIW my other stones are two big (10") double sided DMT plates in extra-coarse/coarse and fine/extra-fine plus two double sided Norton soakers in 220/1000 and 4000/8000. Gets the job done but I think it's time for an upgrade.

Edit: The JKI Diamond 1k+6k looks very nice, but I can get the three SGs for half as much (without the naguras or holder of course). As I recently took delivery of a new Watanabe nakiri I need to consider such sad banalities.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 10, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> I noticed the MTC SG deal and nearly pulled the trigger, but based on this thread, I'm thinking the double thick 500 (back in stock in NY showroom on Friday) plus the 2000 and 4000. Was originally looking at the 500, 2000, 16000 set for $224, but sounds like the 16000 isn't worth getting and I'd miss out on the double thick (but you do get the holder). Maybe I should get the set plus the 4000. Dammit I'm confused again.



Personally, I wouldn't bother with the 16k.


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## Barmoley (Nov 10, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> Thanks for the update and info @sansho, I've got my homework assignment
> 
> FWIW my other stones are two big (10") double sided DMT plates in extra-coarse/coarse and fine/extra-fine plus two double sided Norton soakers in 220/1000 and 4000/8000. Gets the job done but I think it's time for an upgrade.
> 
> Edit: The JKI Diamond 1k+6k looks very nice, but I can get the three SGs for half as much (without the naguras or holder of course). As I recently took delivery of a new Watanabe nakiri I need to consider such sad banalities.


It is a little bit of a false economy. JKI stones are more expensive, but will last a lot longer. So if you want to get a set for most things and just be done, it is cheaper over time to buy JKI set. On the other hand if you just don’t have the funds or want to play with different stones or prefer a certain feel or finish then that’s different. Just shouldn’t only look at price. For sharpening JKI set is very good. for polishing, different finishes, etc other stones might work better.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 10, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> It is a little bit of a false economy. JKI stones are more expensive, but will last a lot longer. So if you want to get a set for most things and just be done, it is cheaper over time to buy JKI set. On the other hand if you just don’t have the funds or want to play with different stones or prefer a certain feel or finish then that’s different. Just shouldn’t only look at price. For sharpening JKI set is very good. for polishing, different finishes, etc other stones might work better.


Thanks @Barmoley, true words indeed. I think I'll just get the SG500 double thick for now because it's cheap, on sale and seems to be the most universally well regarded SG in this thread. And I must admit I do want to play around a bit. Appreciate the advice. THE JKIs are bookmarked.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 10, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> Thanks @Barmoley, true words indeed. I think I'll just get the SG500 double thick for now because it's cheap, on sale and seems to be the most universally well regarded SG in this thread. And I must admit I do want to play around a bit. Appreciate the advice. THE JKIs are bookmarked.



You will have to sharpen a *LOT* to wear out a SG 2k and 4k.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 10, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> You will have to sharpen a *LOT* to wear out a SG 2k and 4k.


It was less about the worry of wearing out the regular width stones and more about the nominal price difference for the 2X thick stone @sansho mentioned earlier in the thread.

I just got finished reading all the posts in the threads about the JKI stones that @sansho linked and I think I'm probably going to go that route (plus the SG500 because, well because ). Thanks again for the recco too @Barmoley. They sound pretty amazing and Jon seems great.


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## sansho (Nov 10, 2021)

i'm excited for a reality where i basically don't have to flatten my stones. looking forward to putting an edge on my new myojin on monday when the jki diamond stones arrive..


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## sansho (Nov 10, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> I just got finished reading all the posts in the threads about the JKI stones that @sansho linked and I think I'm probably going to go that route (plus the SG500 because, well because ). Thanks again for the recco too @Barmoley. They sound pretty amazing and Jon seems great.



nice. i think we will both enjoy them. i've only heard good things about them:



Brian Weekley said:


> Absolutely … I recommend them. They out perform every other stone (which is about 20) that I own. I sharpen regularly for others and really bought them because I was getting increasing numbers of ZDP189 blades and my existing stones were too slow. The diamond stones are much better. The 1k stone raises a burr quickly and the 6K stone refines the edge while still leaving a nice tooth. I normally strop after sharpening but it really isn’t required after using the 6K stone. FWIW I bought them on the recommendation of marc4pt0. He swears by them.


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## M1k3 (Nov 10, 2021)

sansho said:


> i'm excited for a reality where i basically don't have to flatten my stones. looking forward to putting an edge on my new myojin on monday when the jki diamond stones arrive..


Try them out on softer stainless also. Work wonders with them.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 11, 2021)

sansho said:


> i'm excited for a reality where i basically don't have to flatten my stones. looking forward to putting an edge on my new myojin on monday when the jki diamond stones arrive..


Would love to hear your thoughts after use. Thanks again.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 15, 2021)

Just ordered the JKI stones and going to head to MTC to pick up a DT SG500 (and possibly an SG2000). Can't wait!


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## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

if you gonna pick up some glass get the 3k and 4k imo. and possibly the 6 or 8k too. not gonna regret this.

only thing you gonna regret is not getting all of these sooner.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> if you gonna pick up some glass get the 3k and 4k imo. and possibly the 6 or 8k too. not gonna regret this.
> 
> only thing you gonna regret is not getting all of these sooner.


Thanks @inferno - I got the SG500 and 2000 yesterday, you still suggest the 3k, 4K, and others in addition to the JKI diamond stones that arrive on Monday? I love the SGs so far versus the DMT and Norton water stones I was using before, so if you can explain why you recommend the whole shebang, I’d love to pick them up during the MTC sale. Cheers.


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## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> Thanks @inferno - I got the SG500 and 2000 yesterday, you still suggest the 3k, 4K, and others in addition to the JKI diamond stones that arrive on Monday? I love the SGs so far versus the DMT and Norton water stones I was using before, so if you can explain why you recommend the whole shebang, I’d love to pick them up during the MTC sale. Cheers.



i can tell you why i think the different glass stones are worth having yes!

i think the glass 2k is good for crap german soft stainless. upper level for these.

the 3k is good as an upper level for good ingot produced stainless. like vg10. its all that steel can handle. 

the 4k is good powder stainless like srs15 and r2. etc. i feel this is pretty much their maximum. where it makes sense to take these steels to. 

6 and 8k this is for carbon steels. white/blue/hard 1095/hard o1 etc. 

----------------

the 3k is good for getting something really sharp very fast, very little clogging. "very sharp" result.
the 4k takes stuff into the "scary sharp" territory! no ****. and you give up clogging (clogs more) and the stone is slower. 

----------

its like having a car: this can only have 33% more horsepower! why should i get it?

yeah thats a good question. when we all "technically" can get by with just 57 horsepower in our mazdas.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> i can tell you why i think the different glass stones are worth having yes!



Thanks! Dammit. Now I want them all. I already have the 2K for the Wusthofs (assuming that’s what you mean by crap German). Most of my good stuff is white 2, AS, or 1095, so 6/8K might be worth a look. But I’d still love to know the benefits of these in addition to the JKI 1K+6K diamonds.


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## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

probably none, in the high grits. like 6-8k


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## Greenbriel (Nov 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> probably none, in the high grits. like 6-8k


I really appreciate the insights. I’m going to play with what I have for a while, as I’m already getting into gear that exceeds my skill and knowledge. But I am filing this away for the future. These SG stones are really nice. Thanks again!


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## J_Wisdom (Nov 17, 2021)

Seems like most people at least like the SG even if they have a different favorite. Yesterday, I ordered the 500,1k, and 4k with the heavy stone holder. After reading this today, I might order more, but not sure. 

I've been using the Yoshihiro set of 1k, 3k, and 8k. I have diamond flattening plate from JKI that I have used quite a bit on those. The 1k loads quickly to me and is a pain with that, but it works well for sharpening and feels pretty good as I'm using it. It's especially good after I flatten it. The 3k has a different feel/feedback, and I don't like, so little use. The 8k works pretty well for putting a good edge on my ginsan, but sticks easily and needs lots of water no matter how much I soak them. I have a Shapton S&G 220 that I used to fix a VG10 knife that was chipped, and I thought it worked pretty well. 

Considering ordering a couple more from MTC Kitchen while the sale is still on.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 18, 2021)

J_Wisdom said:


> Considering ordering a couple more from MTC Kitchen while the sale is still on.



I just got back from MTC. 

Good sale + nice day for a ride on a vintage Honda + poor impulse control. I now have the 220, 500DT, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000. They are so fast compared to what I was using previously. Also I reckon my DMT diamond plates are pretty worn out and after experiencing S&G I don't think I can go back to soakers.

I still have the JKI diamond 1K & 6K arriving Monday. I think I'm good for a while! Now I just need to find some dull knives.


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## Knivperson (Nov 18, 2021)

There are also these






Triple B Handmade







www.triplebhandmade.com


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## Greenbriel (Nov 18, 2021)

Knivperson said:


> There are also these
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why @Knivperson, why would you do that to me?


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## sansho (Nov 18, 2021)

those BBBs are probably nice but hard to buy and significantly more expensive

for my infrequent use, i think i'll be happy with the jki diamonds. which i received btw! just haven't had time to try them yet


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## Greenbriel (Nov 18, 2021)

sansho said:


> those BBBs are probably nice but hard to buy and significantly more expensive
> 
> for my infrequent use, i think i'll be happy with the jki diamonds. which i received btw! just haven't had time to try them yet



The triple Bs look great, but between six SGs and the JKIs I think I'm certainly set for a while. 

I'd never thinned a knife before, but I just had a go on a $100 Kohetsu (known by many names, see a previous post if interested) and it got ridiculously sharp very quickly. I was too lazy to make it pretty but it's as sharp as my Watanabe nakiri was OOTB. Happy camper.

Looking forward to your JKI review.


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## Knivperson (Nov 19, 2021)

Bbb are certainly next level. But not necessary. Maybe for special steels, but not the usual carbon.


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## inferno (Nov 19, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> I just got back from MTC.
> 
> the 220, 500DT, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000.



these stones are gonna kick some serious ass. i can tell you that. 

one thing you should know. all glass stones comes with some kind of oil layer on them from the factory. 
so water will just ball up and not sink in. 

so you need to rub 2 stones together. maybe the 220 and the 500.
the 1k and the 2k etc. to remove this coating. then they start working as they should. 

i mean this is what you have to do with all new stones from all brands. remove the factory coating.


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## M1k3 (Nov 19, 2021)

inferno said:


> these stones are gonna kick some serious ass. i can tell you that.
> 
> one thing you should know. all glass stones comes with some kind of oil layer on them from the factory.
> so water will just ball up and not sink in.
> ...


Definitely need to get off that top layer. It's almost waxy like. Water beads instead of flowing across the stone.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 19, 2021)

inferno said:


> one thing you should know. all glass stones comes with some kind of oil layer on them from the factory.
> so water will just ball up and not sink in.


Thanks @inferno and @M1k3. I did notice the water beading but just rubbed the water into the stones with my hand which seemed to help. I’m assuming that after sharpening a few knives I have removed any coating.

I love them, they are so fast and I love the feel compared to my previous setup. I see why they are so well regarded. Thanks for the extra nudge @inferno!


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 19, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> Thanks @inferno and @M1k3. I did notice the water beading but just rubbed the water into the stones with my hand which seemed to help. I’m assuming that after sharpening a few knives I have removed any coating.
> 
> I love them, they are so fast and I love the feel compared to my previous setup. I see why they are so well regarded. Thanks for the extra nudge @inferno!



I didn't prep any of my SG stones and they are doing fine.


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## ModRQC (Nov 19, 2021)

Atoma 140 makes SG stones neat in a few strokes. It's no oil or lacquer, it's just a surface thing with these - guess it comes from firing + the particular bonding... edit: and then air and no water sorts of glaze them.

As a matter of pure trivia, Nanohone 200 behaved almost the same as SG500 with water beading. It's just so much coarser/porous it didn't pop out so much.

Edit: and as a add-on SP stones of all grits do pretty much the same - in a much tamer fashion. It's probably more of a ceramic stones thing, but the bonding difference plays a role for sure.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 19, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Atoma 140 makes SG stones neat in a few strokes.


Got one arriving tomorrow.


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## ModRQC (Nov 19, 2021)

Good thing to have.


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## J_Wisdom (Nov 20, 2021)

@Greenbriel Have you used the SG8000 yet? If so, are you glad you bought it? I'm thinking about a SG3k for sure, but not sure what else. Thinking about one of the higher non-glass stones. I won't have my SG 500, 1k, and 4k until after the sale ends, so trying to decide. My Yoshihiro 8k actually makes a pretty good edge and polish, but I haven't used anything else to compare it to.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 20, 2021)

J_Wisdom said:


> @Greenbriel Have you used the SG8000 yet? If so, are you glad you bought it? I'm thinking about a SG3k for sure, but not sure what else. Thinking about one of the higher non-glass stones. I won't have my SG 500, 1k, and 4k until after the sale ends, so trying to decide. My Yoshihiro 8k actually makes a pretty good edge and polish, but I haven't used anything else to compare it to.



I have used it and I like it. With stropping it gets things “standing receipt slicing” sharp. Maybe the 4k could too, haven’t tested that. The only thing I have to compare it to is a Norton combo 4k/8k and the feedback and speed are significantly better on the SG.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 23, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Try them out on softer stainless also. Work wonders with them.


I'm doing something wrong. I dulled a Wusthof and put it on the JKI 1K until burrs etc. and then the 8K. Couldn't get it sharp. Took it to the SGs and sharp in minutes. I'll try again soon. Obviously pilot error, but any tips/quirks working with these stones?


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## M1k3 (Nov 23, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> I'm doing something wrong. I dulled a Wusthof and put it on the JKI 1K until burrs etc. and then the 8K. Couldn't get it sharp. Took it to the SGs and sharp in minutes. I'll try again soon. Obviously pilot error, but any tips/quirks working with these stones?


I haven't done anything differently with them. I create burr on one side. Flip and create burr on other side. Flip and do edge leading strokes and listen to the burr crunch. Then flip and repeat. Followed by a few more edge leading passes, flipping sides each pass.


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## Greenbriel (Nov 23, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I haven't done anything differently with them. I create burr on one side. Flip and create burr on other side. Flip and do edge leading strokes and listen to the burr crunch. Then flip and repeat. Followed by a few more edge leading passes, flipping sides each pass.


Thanks @M1k3, I‘m sure I’ll figure it out, I know it’s not the stones. Apart from only using edge trailing these days, my method is the same as yours. I wonder if I dulled the knife too much and just got impatient. Entirely possible. 

How often do you use the naguras? And is it preferable to have a slurry on them?


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## M1k3 (Nov 23, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> Thanks @M1k3, I‘m sure I’ll figure it out, I know it’s not the stones. Apart from only using edge trailing these days, my method is the same as yours. I wonder if I dulled the knife too much and just got impatient. Entirely possible.
> 
> How often do you use the naguras? And is it preferable to have a slurry on them?


That's a possibility. Hard to diagnose over the internet.

I don't use them that often. Just once I notice a lot of swarf stuck in the surface of the stone and the speed slows down.


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## sansho (Nov 23, 2021)

time for some serious rambling...



Greenbriel said:


> I'm doing something wrong. I dulled a Wusthof and put it on the JKI 1K until burrs etc. and then the 8K. Couldn't get it sharp. Took it to the SGs and sharp in minutes. I'll try again soon. Obviously pilot error, but any tips/quirks working with these stones?



you mean the JKI 1k diamond right? from the 1k+6k set?

i used my jki 1k+6k diamond set once so far. didn't have a _great_ experience with it, but i kind of suck at sharpening, and i was very tired. sharpening doesn't go well for me when i'm tired. i think i get too impatient.

take everything i say here with a grain of salt. these are just initial impressions.

what i received actually appeared to be the 1k and the 6k stones rather than the set. guessing they were out of the sets or something. this means i received an extra stone holder (2 instead of 1), which is nice.

i wrote 1k and 6k with a sharpie on the respective naguras that were included because they felt a little different and didn't want to mix them up.

the 1k and 6k stones are labeled on their sides, but i can't easily tell them apart from above which is kind of annoying. i think i'm going to wrap one of the stone holders with blue masking tape. i actually got 1k and 6k mixed up in the middle of sharpening which was very frustrating. haha. i mentioned i was tired, right?

ok so moving on to actual performance...

jki 1k diamond:
i thought the feedback was actually pretty good. i was expecting a lot worse, but this was fine. i probably would not have felt that i was missing anything in terms of feel had i not used my jki 2k ceramic soaker the next day. the 2k soaker feels superior.
cutting speed on the 1k diamond seemed fine, but surprisingly not really different than the 2k soaker? i was expecting it to be faster.
i enjoyed what i would term "convenience features". no flattening, no soaking, and less mess due to minimal amount of "mud" generated.
i got a usable edge out of it, but maybe not refined enough to end on. the jki 2k soaker on the other hand seems fine to end on.

jki 6k diamond:
in my original post, i said i didn't know how to effectively use my 6k ceramic soaker. same with this so far. i tried finishing on it (to the point of removing most visible 1k scratches), but it either refined it too much, or i suck at sharpening and just rolled the edge over or something. it cut vegetables (tomatoes in particular) noticeably worse than 1k diamond edge. also, i noticed loading on it, but that's because i thought it was the 1k stone for a while (i mixed them up because they look so similar). the nagura refreshed the surface easily though.

my current *jki ceramic soaker *workflow is:

sharpen on my 2k (or start with 400 if there are major issues). mostly edge-trailing. decreasing pressure as i go back and forth as taught in the Peter Nowlan's Knife Planet page. and after several rounds of that, i deburr by drawing across a rubber wine cork.
after cork deburr, i only do gentle edge-leading 'stropping' motions. i do this on the 2k.
as for the jki 6k (6000S) ceramic soaker.. i think i'm finally understanding a way to use it that works for me. like i said, i didn't find any use whatsoever for it before because i was either rolling the edge (my fault), or the edge was too refined. dunno.
even though it comes with a nagura, i don't like the rough texture it leaves on the stone. similarly, i don't like how it is fresh off the stone fixer (flattener). so i get it flat and then rub my jki 2k ceramic soaker on there to smooth it out some.
once smooth and flat, i just do a few gentle, edge-leading strop strokes on there. not removing all the previous scratches and bite. not totally polishing the primary (edge) bevel. i've read some people refer to this lightly refined edge as a "hybrid edge" (but hybrid edge can refer to other things too).

back to the new diamond stones...
what i really need to do now is patiently try 1k -> 6k diamond again when i'm rested. i'll try a 'hybrid edge' with the 6k and see how that performs. if it works well, then i'll try more strokes to polish the primary bevel. people say that this 6k stone has enough bite, so i want to see if that's the case. but if it no longer cuts tomatoes after that, then i'll try tests on paper. if it no longer cleanly cuts paper, i can probably assume i just suck at sharpening (rolled the edge).


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## sansho (Nov 23, 2021)

@Barmoley and @Brian Weekley, how do you guys use the jki 6k diamond? or could you please describe your 1k+6k workflow?


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## sansho (Nov 23, 2021)

ian said:


> JKI’s 4k soaker is amazing. My favorite edge stone for carbon. I have the 6k as well and don’t use it much.



have you tried the synth nat? just curious. both sound pretty good as finishers.


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## Brian Weekley (Nov 24, 2021)

The 1k Diamond is used for general sharpening. Originally I bought the 1k to be used on the high HRC steels. Sharpening on my normal stones with these steels was just too slow. Generally I used a Chosera 800 for general sharpening. The JKI 1000 is just better in all respects. I use the 6K stone for finishing. It refines the edge left by the 1k and leaves a nice tooth on the edge. It actually replaces a 2k or 3k stone that I used before. Then1K-6K JKI combination is just a quick, easy and effective two stone way to achieve an excellent edge for general kitchen use. Since they arrived my other stones don’t get much use and they are indispensable for high HRC steels imo.

Sorry, but I can’t give you a blow by blow description of what I do. Provided repairs aren’t required I just sharpen on the 1k stone until the blade is sharp. I deburr using edge trailing or leading strokes as required then move to the 6000, raise a micro burr and deburr. Generally I’ll finish off on a leather strop for a few strokes and that’s about it. I’ve been doing it for so long that I really don’t think about it.


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## sansho (Nov 24, 2021)

Brian Weekley said:


> I use the 6K stone for finishing. It refines the edge left by the 1k and leaves a nice tooth on the edge. It actually replaces a 2k or 3k stone that I used before.



can you please describe how you use the 6k?
for example, do you work it enough to polish away most of the 1k scratches on the edge bevel?
do you just give it a few light "strops"?


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## Brian Weekley (Nov 24, 2021)

I guess I do polish off the 1k scratches. When I go to the 6K I use it just like the 1k … I raise a very small micro burr … barely detectable … the same on the other side then deburr on the 6K with very light edge trailing strokes … maybe four strokes. Sometimes with some steels I’ll actually throw in one or two edge leading strokes to deburr a stubborn edge. VERY light pressure when I do. I run the edge across my fingernail and stop when I’m happy. I will then generally strop on a loaded leather strop followed by just plain leather because it sounds so nice when I test it on telephone book paper. What I do like with the 6K JKI stone is that there will still be a nice “tooth” left on the edge even after the stropping.


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## sansho (Nov 24, 2021)

cool. i just took my time and sharpened a shirogami gyuto on the 1k+6k diamond set.

i made sure to spend some time on the 6k. not just a few strops. i wanted to be sure i got a good representation of how much bite the 6k leaves.

the edge is great. one of the best edges i've gotten. certainly comparable to jki 2k soaker + light stropping on 6k soaker.

it passes my tests:

push-cuts printer paper. pure forward push cut motion (little to no 'slicing' motion i.e. not thrust cutting).
slices through tomato skin with minimal resistance. the weight of the knife is plenty to get through without hesitation in a draw or thrust cut.
basic tests, but it gets me were i want to be. maybe someday i'll start with these hanging hair tests, but i think i'm not close enough yet in skill to bother with it.

i'm certainly happy with this as my second set and will bring it to my other place next time i'm there. thanks guys.

i think i want to add a jki 4k or synth nat to my soaker set though. and an atoma 140 for flattening.


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## sansho (Nov 24, 2021)

btw, @Brian Weekley, when/how often do you use the naguras on those stones?


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## Brian Weekley (Nov 24, 2021)

Actuallly I don’t use the supplied nagura’s. I clean all my stones with a large rust eraser that I picked up. Works great and I use it whenever there is an accumulation (dark streak) in the middle of the stone. At least once per sharpening session. Whenever I sharpen it sits soaking in my stone pond. A few swipes is all it takes.


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## sansho (Nov 24, 2021)

that seems about right. i notice they do get dark and feel loaded up. more smooth, less feedback. no clue if it was actually cutting slower, but i didn't like how it felt on steel. i just gently and briefly ran the nagura over it, and it was good as new. i'll try a rust eraser for fun next time.


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## ian (Nov 24, 2021)

sansho said:


> have you tried the synth nat? just curious. both sound pretty good as finishers.



I’ve tried it, and liked it, but apparently I didn’t try it correctly, as you’re supposed to permasoak it for best results. I’m sure it’s a great stone too. The 4k is just my default finisher for basically all carbon gyutos.


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## Barmoley (Nov 24, 2021)

Sounds like you've figured it out. Two mistakes I've made before were to spend too much time on the 6k and not deburring enough on the 1k. The edge should be sharp and burr free when you are done with 1k. If it is not and you try to correct 1k issues on 6k that usually doesn't work well. I don't spend much time on 6k it is used to refine the edge so I basically do what Brian does. There are no hard rules though and as long as your edge is sharp and burr free how you get there is less important. I used nagura whenever I felt that the stones loaded up and became slower.

Between the natural synthetic and 4k gesshin I preferred 4k, it is one of the best edge finishers for kitchen knives in my experience. I don't use it anymore though since I wanted to make my life easier, so only use vitrified diamond stones now.


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## J_Wisdom (Dec 2, 2021)

I just received my first MTC Kitchen shipment of Shapton glass stones and sharpening stone holder. Haven't used them yet, but I feel compelled to say what a great packaging job MTC did. It took a long time to receive, but they stated that upfront all over the website, so I knew ahead of time. Won't have time to do anything with them today, but from I can see, I'm very happy. That stone holder is SOLID, and there is no movement on the stone in there. Earlier this week I ordered a 3k and 8k that I'll see towards the end of the month. I'm unsure if the 8k is worth it for me, but I like the finish I can get with my Yoshihiro 8k.


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## Greenbriel (Dec 3, 2021)

I went a little crazy with the MTC SG sale (went back twice!) and I don't regret a cent, including those spent on the 8k. Congrats, they are awesome stones.


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## sansho (Dec 3, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> I went a little crazy with the MTC SG sale (went back twice!) and I don't regret a cent, including those spent on the 8k. Congrats, they are awesome stones.



cool! not that i need them, but i'll probably still grab some SGs to play with. i just slacked too long, and if i order now, they'll probably arrive when i'm out of town. will probably get 500 double, 3k, and 4k to start with. and the field stone holder.

anyone have that field holder? i wonder how much less solid it feels compared to the regular one.

btw, if anyone missed out, don't feel bad. the mtc shapton sale was kind of a troll. it was 20% off across the board from what i saw, but you can still get that same discount by signing up to their newsletter. or pm me for the code. i just don't want to spam it everywhere and somehow motivate them to change it.

are you liking your jki diamond stones any more than before, @Greenbriel? or could you give an overview of the stuff you have and how you like it?

my overview is...

i still have the jki ceramic soakers (400, 2k, 6k). they are fun to sharpen on and give good results. the 6k i only really use for a few final edge leading strops to give a partially-polished ('hybrid') edge that still has a lot of tooth. i want to try a 4k and/or a synth nat.
i like these jki diamond stones. they don't feel quite as nice to sharpen on, but not bad at all. they are obviously more convenient. i love not flattening them, and they make a lot less mud and swarf. hence less messy. these will probably replace my soakers as my primary set. the point of this thread was originally to look for a second set for my other place, and i'll probably leave my soakers there now (permasoaked in a sealed container with a little bleach) and keep the diamonds here.
i also want a coarser stone like a SG 500 to keep with my jki diamonds for when i have to do more than touching up.


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## sansho (Dec 3, 2021)

i totally forgot to mention that the main sharpening breakthrough i've had since my original soaker set is *stropping*.

i just got a horse butt strop (smooth side of the leather) that i loaded with 1μ diamond spray. i got the spray from CKTG.
push cut feel and sound through paper is noticeably better after stropping with this. it also stays toothy, but i only do about 10 strops on each side. idk what happens if you keep going.

i like the idea of removing as little metal as possible, especially since i don't know how to thin knives. the strop seems to do a good job refreshing an edge periodically. and when that stops working, i'll go back to what i was doing before which was edge-leading stropping on a stone.


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## Greenbriel (Dec 3, 2021)

LOL I did notice that about the newsletter discount, but I think that's a one time deal so if you're already a customer and have used the code you'd still want to get the sale price. I apologize that I didn't reply to your great JKI write up earlier, I've been swamped and about to fly to England for three weeks (yay, Omicron!) so I haven't even had time to mess with them any further.

I'm definitely going to put in some time with them when I get back, but right now I'm feeling like someone might get a nice BTS deal in the new year. I just get such great results with the SGs. But too early to tell, and some people around here who I respect and know more than I speak highly of them, but we'll see.

I'm going to give my soakers away, can't see going back after S&G convenience. The SG500 is a champ, understandably seen as the darling of the lineup by some members. I think I posted before, but I ended up getting the 220, 500DT, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000.

I got an Atoma 140 too (Amazon was sadly cheaper than MTC), that's a great thing to have.

Cheers!


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## Greenbriel (Dec 3, 2021)

sansho said:


> i totally forgot to mention that the main sharpening breakthrough i've had since my original soaker set is *stropping*.


Hah, I am literally stropping on the CKTG magnetic 'roo strops prepping for dinner in between typing here. 

I've been stropping for a long time, it's a game changer, IMO.

I don't think much would happen if you went beyond 10 passes per side.

I think someone a few posts back was saying the field holder is great. Could've been another thread I'm following.


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## Kawa (Dec 3, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> Hah, I am literally stropping on the CKTG magnetic 'roo strops prepping for dinner in between typing here.
> 
> I've been stropping for a long time, it's a game changer, IMO.
> 
> ...



Too much stropping might overpolish the edge, loosing the bite.

1 micron is about 15000 gritt. Do that a lot and your edge becomes 15000 gritt.


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## Greenbriel (Dec 3, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Too much stropping might overpolish the edge, loosing the bite.
> 
> 1 micron is about 15000 gritt. Do that a lot and your edge becomes 15000 gritt.


I stand corrected. Thanks @Kawa. I'm probably overpolishing all my edges. Just really starting to get into the nitty gritty of polish vs. tooth.


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## Delat (Dec 3, 2021)

I love the Shapton field stone holder - it’s super nice to drop stones in and out without messing with screws or springs. I was considering cheaper universal holders but I’m really happy I spent the few extra bucks. I do my sharpening on a rubber mat and everything stays put just fine. I don’t use a ton of pressure when sharpening, but I think even with more pressure it wouldn’t move. If you’re on a slippery surface it might be a different story though.


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## Barmoley (Dec 4, 2021)

Greenbriel said:


> I stand corrected. Thanks @Kawa. I'm probably overpolishing all my edges. Just really starting to get into the nitty gritty of polish vs. tooth.


It's not just over polishing it is very easy to round the apex with a strop. Only people with very fine control can get away with stropping alot. For the rest less is more.


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## tcmx3 (Dec 4, 2021)

I have very mixed results with strops & compound and my general take is that the softer type that give are WAY more usable.

I got a harder one recently after my old one which was mounted on wood soaked up some water and one side exploded and I feel like Im gonna have to start playing CS deathmatch again.

I do prefer 1 micron diamond emulsion to the 2 micron CBN I was using by a lot though. the CBN was less aggressive and I sort of came to the conclusion that Id rather each swipe cut harder but I do less swipes. gotten some really good results as long as I pay a lot of attention and err on the side of my angle being too low.

btw Im just gonna add once you're spending >100 dollars on a finisher, you really ought to consider one of Jon's Oouchi or Hideriyama stones instead IMO. but then, that's just like, my opinion.


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## Kawa (Dec 4, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> It's not just over polishing it is very easy to round the apex with a strop. Only people with very fine control can get away with stropping alot. For the rest less is more.



Isnt it both, to be fair?
A lot of compounds we use are also used to buff/polish metals; they are not developed specially for knife deburring.
Take a well used coin and rub it on your strop, it will get clean and very soon start to shine.


Apex rounding has more to do with the medium you strop on, right? A hard medium, like balsa has no 'give', so when you push too hard, the medium doesnt 'fold on' the edge. Folding on the edge is what rounds off the edge, not the amount of stropping per se. True?

So be very carefull (steady angle, not too much pressure) when stropping on fluffy suede for example. The more passes you do, the sooner or later you will make one of those two mistakes, rounding your edge.


I use very firm, compressed leather to strop. After about 6-7 strokes per side the results dont get better. The edge is clean, or I failed to debur properly on my stone.
If I continue however, the edge will start to shine a lot more.


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## stringer (Dec 5, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Apex rounding has more to do with the medium you strop on, right? A hard medium, like balsa has no 'give', so when you push too hard, the medium doesnt 'fold on' the edge. Folding on the edge is what rounds off the edge, not the amount of stropping per se. True?



A hanging strop would be the most likely thing to cause apex rounding assuming your technique is pretty good. Hanging strops are meant for razors where the spine and the edge are both in contact with the strop at all times preventing you from messing up the angle. I do use hanging style strops for knives sometimes but I don't use them hanging. I lay them on the counter. But leather isn't my favorite medium for knife strops. I prefer lots of other materials to leather. Newspaper, copy paper, cardboard, etc. Or cloth options like a kitchen rag, linen, denim, etc. Or a fine natural stone. I save my leather strops for razors for the most part. There's just so many better options for knives in my opinion.


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## J_Wisdom (Dec 6, 2021)

Does anyone use a nagura stone with the SG stones? I wondered about that today, because I used the SG 1k and 4k today on a couple different knives, mainly working my Yoshihiro ginsan usuba. These stones are great, although I didn't spend a lot of time working on it today. One thing the Yoshihiro 8k with the nagura does well is the finish on the knife, and I have my kenmuki pretty sharp using those. 

One thing I really like about the SG is how well the water stays on it versus soaking it up like the Yoshihiro do. I don't have any stone comparisons yet, although I do have a Shapton 220 S&G that worked pretty well for my needs at the time. Basically removing a lot for a chip.


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