# Any espresso machine technicians out there? Or serious nerds?



## Luftmensch (Nov 18, 2020)

Hi KKF,

Is there anybody in the community who is into modding their espresso machine? Or has anybody built one from parts?

I am considering making an espresso machine using spare/repair parts. It would be great to bounce ideas around and tap into some knowledge.... I am not sure if I want to commit to the project yet but it is under serious consideration!


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## juice (Nov 18, 2020)

I am a serious nerd, but I hate coffee. #SorryNotSorry


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## Luftmensch (Nov 18, 2020)

Haha... I know this request is a stretch. 

I made an account on home-barista and asked a similar question. It has only been three days and I am a new member... so I shouldnt expect a tsunami of responses - but I am also a little disappointed in the lack of discussion. One kind soul took pity on me and offered some friendly advice. And I am grateful for that!


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## Bensbites (Nov 18, 2020)

I am a serious coffee nerd, to the point where I roast my own coffee beans. I dipped my toe in the espresso world, but prefer other methods. I am happy to chat coffee.


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## jacko9 (Nov 18, 2020)

We have a La Pavoni and the importer and repair shop is in San Francisco. Not sure how many other brands he works on but you should be able to Google La Pavoni expresso.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Nov 18, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> I am a serious coffee nerd, to the point where I roast my own coffee beans. I dipped my toe in the espresso world, but prefer other methods. I am happy to chat coffee.


I've been roasting for 13 years, have 50 lbs of green coffee in my freezer, and multiple espresso machines...but I'm no coffee nerd


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## WPerry (Nov 18, 2020)

Sounds like it could be interesting. What's the impetus behind the project? Do you have a particular set of wants that aren't met by any current machines? Do you think that you'll come out ahead in terms of pricing/value? Just because you can? (That's always an acceptable answer.) 

I haven't gotten in to any modding - just repairs on my E61 HX machine over the years: valve replacements, new pump, that sort of thing. That was one of the appealing things about an E61, though - the relative simplicity. 

I assume that you've seen this Hoffman video?


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## Luftmensch (Nov 18, 2020)

WPerry said:


> Sounds like it could be interesting. What's the impetus behind the project? Do you have a particular set of wants that aren't met by any current machines? Do you think that you'll come out ahead in terms of pricing/value? Just because you can? (That's always an acceptable answer.)



This is what I said on Home-barista:



> I know this could be a money sink... I know it could be worse value than simply buying a machine.... I know I risk getting bored halfway through
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I feel like it is time for me to move onto from my HX machine. I could live with temperature surfing indefinitely but a dual boiler would be nice. One less thing to worry about. My machine is _ageing._ I need to replace the pressurestat (it is a bit glitchy) and I wouldn't mind a quieter pump (something other than a vibrating pump).

So yeah! I partly feel like I could upgrade... And I think it could be a fun project! Large espresso suppliers have pretty comprehensive spares inventories. You can get all of the guts you need. It is pretty close to adult lego if you can wire up the hydraulics and cobble together a control system. I think I could do both. Do I think it would be better than a commercial machine with the same spec? Probably not.... Do I think it would be fun and likely 'better' than my current machine... sure!!

Edit:



WPerry said:


> I assume that you've seen this Hoffman video?



Yeah! Exactly... It might be really hard to get well engineered passive thermal control... but it is easy enough to cobble things together to get a working 'something'.


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## WPerry (Nov 19, 2020)

Cool! I'm essentially in the same position as you, in terms of machine and disposition towards said machine. I've got a Quickmill Anita E61 HX that has served me well, but I think that it's getting to be time to move on. I'm also looking at a similar set of parameters: E61 for the simplicity and parts availability, dual boiler w/PID for the temp stability, vib pump for the noise level and the ability to plumb. Rather than build it myself, I think that I'll be content with buying and then maybe making some walnut side panels, knobs, and handles - I'm less ambitious!  

That said, I can see where you're coming from - I enjoy building up my own bikes and computers - and it shouldn't be hard to source all of the parts. Have you priced out the parts yet? What are you planning on doing in terms of a frame?


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## Luftmensch (Nov 19, 2020)

I must confess... I am being pulled in the direction of a La Marzocco GS3 AV build.... The main benefits are top-of-class temperature stability (saturated group) and daemonic steaming power. The disadvantages are *price*, slow heat-up times (probably higher power bills) and... well... I think I would have less creative freedom with the plumbing. There is some aesthetic beauty to the E61 group.... even if it is potentially 'inferior' (loaded term).... The E61 is just nicer kitchen bling - particularly to the uninformed.

For the GS3 group I have calculated a materials cost slightly above 2K (Australian pesos). I rather suspect the steam boiler will be similar. 

The other route is an E61 based machine. I would use Profitec 700 parts (or ECM Synchronika - they are effectively the same machine). If you havent already looked at the 700 or Synchronika, have a look... They are about as good as you can get for dual-boiler E61...

Other lofty goals.... add a pressure sensor and flow sensor near the end of the brew path. Loop that to control the flow rate of the pump. You could use this to provide real-time information on the shot (Like a DecentEspresso machine). Or if I couldn't be bothered with a GUI (probably) add a lever to control flow or pressure.... or flow for the first 50% of the sweep.. then pressure for the remaining 50%.


The frame... hard to tell. The predominant aesthetic for E61 machines is polished stainless. Initially I might just go Bauhaus 'form follows function' and keep it an open skeleton. A bit like Hoffman's Kees scrap build. The other thought is more in your direction... some nice wooden frame (Australian wood of course!) with a glass panel to display the guts.


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## Bear (Nov 20, 2020)

La Marzocco GS3 nice machine but a bit complicated, the Profitec, EMC, have much more room in the cabinet, they're very well thought out and fairly simple. I've worked on my Alex Duetto and it is crammed in, very hard to work on.


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## Michi (Nov 20, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> The other thought is more in your direction... some nice wooden frame (Australian wood of course!) with a glass panel to display the guts.


I you google for "steam punk espresso machine", you'll find plenty of inspiration. Some of these things are truly works of art. I really like the Nixie tubes for that special touch


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## Luftmensch (Nov 20, 2020)

Bear said:


> the Profitec, EMC, have much more room in the cabinet



Absolutely... I have only laid hands on my machine... but I have been trawling the net for videos, pictures and descriptions. Whole Latte Love did a really nice walk through of the Pro 700



You can see it is very well thought out and accessible. The pictures of the GS3 internals look like a rats nest!! Cramming it together gives the consumer a smaller footprint - but I am sure it also helps prevent thermal dissipation from the boilers a bit. I can choose to make it bigger than that if I wish...

I am still considering GS3 parts... the saturated group is a technology that is deep into diminishing returns. Just as a lot of mythology surround steels and stones here... a lot of mythology surrounds espresso machines in coffee forums. Does the E61 thermal dip add to the flavour or the stability/inertia of a saturated group  It is all too much!





Michi said:


> "steam punk espresso machine",



Wow! That thing must weigh a tonne! Gee.. I could probably make wood look presentable but I have close to zero metal-fab skills. Kudos to that craftsman!


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## MarcelNL (Nov 20, 2020)

get a lever and be done with it, temperature stability can be reached in two ways; fancy electronics or sheer thermal mass (thermal mass cannot break down).
Something like a Faema president, Lambro etc they are running for decades and will do same for decades to come and a second benefit is that you do'nt need fancy electronics to mimick a lever because you already have one ;-)
Buy a restoration project and have some fun, plenty of threads and advice on HB, there are some world class restorers you have access to!


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## WPerry (Nov 20, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> I must confess... I am being pulled in the direction of a La Marzocco GS3 AV build.... The main benefits are top-of-class temperature stability (saturated group) and daemonic steaming power. The disadvantages are *price*, slow heat-up times (probably higher power bills) and... well... I think I would have less creative freedom with the plumbing. There is some aesthetic beauty to the E61 group.... even if it is potentially 'inferior' (loaded term).... The E61 is just nicer kitchen bling - particularly to the uninformed.
> 
> For the GS3 group I have calculated a materials cost slightly above 2K (Australian pesos). I rather suspect the steam boiler will be similar.
> 
> ...




Whoa - yeah, lofty goals, indeed! If you start heading down this path, keep us updated. 

Yes, the Pro 700 and ECM Sync are the two main considerations at this point - I'm just unsure about the wands vs knobs. I'm probably close to a year away from a purchase, though, so plenty of time to mull it over.


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## MarcelNL (Nov 20, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Haha... I know this request is a stretch.
> 
> I made an account on home-barista and asked a similar question. It has only been three days and I am a new member... so I shouldnt expect a tsunami of responses - but I am also a little disappointed in the lack of discussion. One kind soul took pity on me and offered some friendly advice. And I am grateful for that!


 what thread on HB are you referring to?


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## WildBoar (Nov 20, 2020)

Hmmm, can't say that it is a rats nest inside my GS3. I've been in there a few times over the years and did not have much trouble. The only thing with an real issue is the electronics tray on the bottom that also serves as a drip tray. Proved to not be a good combo...


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## Luftmensch (Nov 20, 2020)

WPerry said:


> I'm just unsure about the wands vs knobs



With knobs, I dislike (really, really small quibble) having that couple of seconds where the steam is ramping down as you close the valve. If you are free-holding the milk jug and are not careful, it is easy to get distracted and change the depth of the nozzle while closing off the valve. If you pull the nozzle back from the surface you can ruin a nice velvety foam by injecting large bubbles right at the last minute. It is easy enough to avoid this... but then again... It takes less coordination/concentration to just flip a lever shut....

... So I am erring slightly towards lever valves... 




MarcelNL said:


> what thread on HB are you referring to?











DIY from spare/repair parts: make a recommendation


Hi there Home-Barista, tl;dr I am considering making an espresso machine using spare/repair parts. It has full license to be a franken-machine: I am happy to pick parts from any manufacturer. What parts would you recommend? Bonus points if they are readily available (particularly in Australia)...




www.home-barista.com







Perhaps I should have posted in their "repairs" forum...




WildBoar said:


> Hmmm, can't say that it is a rats nest inside my GS3



Youre right! I am using colourful language just for drama  Perhaps that is not fair. The machine isnt messy as"'rat's nest" would imply... _at all_.

But! Comparing the Profitec 700 and the GS3 internals, it looks like there were either different constraints placed on the design brief (size?) or a different construction ethos. The inside of the Profitec 700 looks more organised and spacious. By comparison the GS3 looks cramped and the cabling, in particular, looks less well managed. Treat this only as an opinion on the machine's internal aesthetics - independent of the quality or capability of the machine. I know the machine is legendary!! It could also just be a product of the GS3 being inherently more complex. 

Since you have a GS3... what can you say about it? Have you used E61 groups? If so... what are you thoughts! I'm keen to hear them!


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## Moooza (Nov 20, 2020)

What's your motivation for making one vs buying a Decent?


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## Luftmensch (Nov 21, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Something like a Faema president, Lambro etc they are running for decades and will do same for decades to come and a second benefit is that you do'nt need fancy electronics to mimick a lever because you already have one ;-)



Sorry @MarcelNL!I forgot to answer this one. Cheap used lever machines arent common here. I would consider a project like this if they were really cheap... but given their rarity and price, it doesn't interest me as much. Or maybe I am looking in the wrong places?




Moooza said:


> What's your motivation for making one vs buying a Decent?



Just fun...


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## MarcelNL (Nov 21, 2020)

no sweat, just think that you'll find more info on HB as there are some folks there that did this before you and there are quite a few established restorers..

Finding an old lever is not very easy but check the bay, there are loads coming from Spain, Italy and recently Rumania Bulgaria etc. But there also is quite a coffee culture in (i believe you're from) Australia.

Even buying a small vintage lever from Italy will be cost effective, even with shipping, yet it depends if you need larger volumes and / or steam. For the odd espresso or two/four a day a small vintage home lever such as the Faemina is great. Dead easy to use, consistent, thermal stability, and it will live another 60 years easily with minimal TLC.
Have used a red label Faemina for 3 years before moving to the Urania, coffee consumption was higher than what the Faemina could handle without filling the boiler too often (consumption jumped due to constant availability)


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## Lars (Nov 21, 2020)

I made some mods to my Dalla Corte mini, but never build anything from the ground up.

Regarding knob vs lever if you are steaming milk for a double latte it doesn't matter, but if you are steaming milk for a single cortado or single cappuccino in a smal pitcher it's nice to be able to run the steam a little below full power.


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## WildBoar (Nov 21, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Since you have a GS3... what can you say about it? Have you used E61 groups? If so... what are you thoughts! I'm keen to hear them!


It is the only 'real' espresso machine I have owned, so I can't give any good comparisons to other E61 machines. The little espresso machine I had before this one was given to me as a gift, and it was a essentially a $30 thing from Bed, Bath & Beyond (or a similar store). It had a pretty small group head and you weren't even supposed to tamp the grounds. Just fill the plastic 'scoop' to the top with preground coffee, dump it into the portofilter (there was no separate basket), and push down on the mound of grinds with the flat bottom of the scoop. I was fine with it for a couple of years, as I was used to drinking crappy coffee at work and I only made espressos with it about once per month. And of course it was made with preground espresso that lived in the fridge for months and months.

The GS3 has a lot of features, but I only brew using the volumetric setting (you can cut off the flow if it blonds too early), and have played with the boiler temp a little to see what differences I can detect with minor temperature changes. There is a lot you can play with if you are so inclined, but I prefer going essentially manual.

When I bought it 10+ years ago I wanted a double boiler machine. This was at the high end of what was available, but frankly it was hard to find any decent double boiler back than for less than $2.5k. I knew I would not hard pipe the machine, so the GS3 won me over with the large reservoir and large boiler. And the semi-auto features were attractive to me since I was a novice, although once I got the machine I really did not mess with them.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 22, 2020)

@WildBoar, Thanks for the reply! Appreciated!

It is a fantastic piece of engineering. There is an awful lot you can play with. I like the idea of having some options for me to play with... but also programming the machine so the rest of the family can pull something decent out of it.

Eventually... in a dream scenario... I would love to plumb a machine in. That depends on our next kitchen. For now, running off a reservoir is important to us as well.


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## WildBoar (Nov 22, 2020)

Definitely hard to beat the size of the GS3 reservoir.


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## hijackn (Nov 22, 2020)

I have one of those starbucks barista machines from back when everyone was wearing windbreaker pants all the time. What's the difference in flavor you'd get from a higher end machine?


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## Luftmensch (Nov 23, 2020)

hijackn said:


> I have one of those starbucks barista machines from back when everyone was wearing windbreaker pants all the time. What's the difference in flavor you'd get from a higher end machine?



Where did the pants go?

I don't know much about this machine. But there is info out there:

CoffeeGeek - Starbucks Barista
Worth keeping Starbucks Barista espresso machine?

I imagine it is competitive with machines in its price class. Based on the very brief reading I did (see above), it seems capable of a good espresso. Perhaps you might have to debug some quirks and learn the machine. It looks like its biggest weakness is size/power? As in: weaker steam than a higher end machine and longer recharge times. Perhaps the smaller boiler might lead to more variable temperatures (when drawing in fresh brew water).


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## Chips (Nov 23, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Haha... I know this request is a stretch.
> 
> I made an account on home-barista and asked a similar question. It has only been three days and I am a new member... so I shouldnt expect a tsunami of responses - but I am also a little disappointed in the lack of discussion. One kind soul took pity on me and offered some friendly advice. And I am grateful for that!



I hope your time on HB pans out. I too have noticed that we have a lot less custom/one-off build threads happening this year. In 2019 and even before, there was a lot of activity there, discussing building machines. The LSM lever group was being used for many different custom builds. I don't know if it's because of CoVID or not, but yeah, this year has been kinda quiet.

I own several espresso machines, but if I was in the market again, it'd only be a Decent Espresso machine. I'll probably end up selling one of mine and getting one. It's just too compelling of a machine to do without in the home environment. 

Good luck and happy wrenching, whichever way you go!


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## hijackn (Nov 23, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Where did the pants go?
> 
> I don't know much about this machine. But there is info out there:
> 
> ...



Excellent, seems to be a machine people "in the know" keep as a backup. More than good enough for me. I've never drank another espresso than the ones from this machine so I didn't know what I might be missing.


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## DentalChef (Nov 24, 2020)

I’m a big coffee nerd, although I was until I got more into cooking and knives. I worked head barista at a specialty cafe in the UK. I’ve owned numerous home machines and grinders and modded a few like the gaggia classic and la pavoni pro. I just recently sold my home set up though as filter coffee is good enough for me and I want more knives lol.


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## SeattleB (Nov 24, 2020)

Modding a machine sounds difficult. There is a lot of complex engineering in there plus high pressure steam. A tip o' the hat to those with the skills. 

I have a Quick Mill Profiles. It's an e61, PID, double boiler, flow-profiling machine. Love it.


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## DentalChef (Nov 24, 2020)

SeattleB said:


> Modding a machine sounds difficult. There is a lot of complex engineering in there plus high pressure steam. A tip o' the hat to those with the skills.
> 
> I have a Quick Mill Profiles. It's an e61, PID, double boiler, flow-profiling machine. Love it.


Quick mill make some cracking stuff. Definitely sounds like a machine for life, it doesn’t get much too better than that.


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## SeattleB (Nov 24, 2020)

It makes great espresso. I don't know if I'll have it for life, but I owned my last e61 machine for 15 years and then I recently sold it to a guy who is happily using it. I love how these machines last. People think high quality espresso machines are expensive. I think they're a very good deal compared to buying coffee at a cafe. The math makes it a no-brainer decision, especially with everyone at home during this crazy virus pandemic.


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## WPerry (Nov 24, 2020)

SeattleB said:


> It makes great espresso. I don't know if I'll have it for life, but I owned my last e61 machine for 15 years and then I recently sold it to a guy who is happily using it. I love how these machines last. People think high quality espresso machines are expensive. I think they're a very good deal compared to buying coffee at a cafe. The math makes it a no-brainer decision, especially with everyone at home during this crazy virus pandemic.



I use that math all the time to justify the espresso machine and grinder. At this point, I've recouped all of my expenses and I'm making money with each latte!


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## Luftmensch (Nov 24, 2020)

Chips said:


> I hope your time on HB pans out. I too have noticed that we have a lot less custom/one-off build threads happening this year. In 2019 and even before, there was a lot of activity there, discussing building machines. The LSM lever group was being used for many different custom builds. I don't know if it's because of CoVID or not, but yeah, this year has been kinda quiet.



I have lurked on several coffee forums in the past to help debug issues and learn. It has been valuable. They seem to be amicable places. I was hoping for more interaction on HB but didnt expect it. A new member asking a niche topic, "what is your favourite colour" type question - and possibly in the wrong sub-forum. I am lucky to have gotten some good-faith replies 



Chips said:


> Good luck and happy wrenching, whichever way you go!



Thank you for the good wishes. I appreciate that! 





DentalChef said:


> I just recently sold my home set up though as filter coffee is good enough for me and I want more knives lol.



Ha! Well... I can say I definitely only own one grinder and one coffee machine.... I guess thats why we are talking on KKF!!





SeattleB said:


> People think high quality espresso machines are expensive. I think they're a very good deal compared to buying coffee at a cafe. The math makes it a no-brainer decision, especially with everyone at home during this crazy virus pandemic.



Definitely. I have been lucky enough to work from home - life without my machine would be less enjoyable!


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## MarcelNL (Nov 25, 2020)

there are a few threads on HB about home grown machines, I suspect you will get enough input once you have clarified some design parameters. I don;t think it's because you asked the favorite color but more akin to someone stating; I'm new to Japanese Knives, which one do I buy? It's not without reason this forum has the Question and Answer list in place to support that sort of advice.

I honestly do not think there is little response due to you being new, rather that you need to define a bit more what you are after. There is a wealth of information on HB and there are quite a few dedicated tinkerers with the sort of expertise you likely want, to the point where the 'guy behind' WDT started Decent whose DE1 IMO fits your ticket quite perfectly.
If you start a new thread once you have a bit more defined wish list and direction you should get more input.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 26, 2020)

I have swung between saturated and E61 for a bit. if I go ahead, due to cost (less money risk) I am likely to do an E61 build. From all the reading I have done, it is not clear to me that the saturated group produces better results in the cup. From serious sounding people on various forums, it seems like temperature stability is less important than consistency. So if an E61 dips a couple of degrees towards the end of the shot... it doesn't matter so long as it does that all the time. You can compensate using other parameters. I _might_ use the GS3 steam boiler though. Endless steaming is attractive.. albeit probably unnecessary.

@MarcelNL ... for a brief second I started thinking about an automatic lever . Silly - it ruins the intimacy of the the lever and being attached to the process... but it might be silly enough to be a crazy sort of fun. It would be fairly easy to do control wise. Essentially attach a linear actuator to the lever arm and control the position/velocity of the actuator to adjust flow rate (repeatably). Doing it well would require more metal fabrication than I am capable of though...


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## MarcelNL (Nov 26, 2020)

haha, I have thought about a hydraulic controlled lever....anyhow, you DO know many levers already are automatic....a spring controls the flow rate pretty reliably unless your basket prep or grind are way off ;-)


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## Luftmensch (Nov 27, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> haha, I have thought about a hydraulic controlled lever....anyhow, you DO know many levers already are automatic....a spring controls the flow rate pretty reliably unless your basket prep or grind are way off ;-)



Yeah! Definitely! Except springs are not as configurable/precise as a hydraulic piston or linear actuator would be... You could set those up to follow a precise profile, push a button and they'd follow a different one.

The La Marzocco Leva is pretty wild. I am not sure I am a fan of the aesthetic... but I do love how you can see the piston mechanism at work during extraction. _Very_ cool.


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## rockbox (Nov 27, 2020)

People get too crazy with the advantage of a double boiler. The second boiler is for milk, so if your not into milk drinks, its a waste. If you are I to milk drinks, you really can't tastes the subtle notes of coffee. I have a Rocket Giotto HX with PiD and La spaziale S1 mini double boiler. I can make great drinks with both. 

I may get a Decent someday just to play around with pressure profiling.


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## WildBoar (Nov 27, 2020)

^ oversimplification. Some of us like a more 'substantial' drink sometimes than just an espresso, and many of us have other people who live in our houses that have drink requests, plus pre-covid gathers often required pumping out 10-12 espressos and cappas back-to-back. It's nice to be able to keep them rolling versus telling the people standing there giddy with anticipation that they need to keep waiting a bit.


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## rockbox (Nov 27, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> ^ oversimplification. Some of us like a more 'substantial' drink sometimes than just an espresso, and many of us have other people who live in our houses that have drink requests, plus pre-covid gathers often required pumping out 10-12 espressos and cappas back-to-back. It's nice to be able to keep them rolling versus telling the people standing there giddy with anticipation that they need to keep waiting a bit.



My HX machine is faster than my double boiler.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 28, 2020)

rockbox said:


> People get too crazy with the advantage of a double boiler.



Depends what you mean by crazy... It is a fact that you cant independently vary the steam power and temperature on an HX machine. They are coupled - it is intrinsic to the design. There is _zero_ doubt (in my experience) that HX is a very, very clever and functional compromise. I make great coffee every day in my almost 20-year old HX Giotto.

I have had extensive experience on multiple HX machines, one double boiler E61 and a substantial two-group Nuova Simonelli Aurelia (I think that was the one)... You can make drinkable coffees in all of them. But they offer difference work flows and capabilities. Dual boilers don't necessarily make a better drink but they are better at keeping up with demand. From a purist's point of view... dual boilers are also more temperature stable. They aught to be capable of producing a higher load of consistent coffees.

Australian coffee drinkers are biased towards milk drinks (at any time of day). If you have a group of friends over... you'll be wanting to make lots of flat whites or cappuccinos. You can either do that fast... or you can do that slow!





rockbox said:


> If you are I to milk drinks, you really can't tastes the subtle notes of coffee.



Milk changes the flavour profile and mouth feel. It is another parameter where you like what you like and there is no right or wrong. While I agree that milk can swamp the subtitles of beans... it doesn't _have_ to eliminate all of them. It all depends on the bean and milk combination.

I like a medium bean and enjoy nutty/caramel/chocolate/salty flavours with milk. I agree that I haven't really experienced the fruitiness of a lighter roast in a milk drink... but then again... I dont like bright/tart/acid with milk either!


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## WPerry (Nov 28, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> From a purist's point of view... dual boilers are also more temperature stable. They aught to be capable of producing a higher load of consistent coffees.



This is the primary reason behind my desire to upgrade. Yeah, I can temp surf on my HX, but I don't want to _need_ to do that and it's still not as controllable.


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## rockbox (Nov 28, 2020)

WPerry said:


> This is the primary reason behind my desire to upgrade. Yeah, I can temp surf on my HX, but I don't want to _need_ to do that and it's still not as controllable.





Double boiler machines are not inherently more stable. There is no temperature surfing with my Rocket HX with a PID since Rocket modifies their E61 grouphead to avoid overheating. BTW, with a double boiler, you actually have to do a warming flush if you have a standard E61 grouphead. Since the boiler temperature is not high enough to keep the grouphead warm enough. This is from the Eric's grouphead thermometer manual







> There are two (at least for now) double-boiler E-61 machines and three heat exchanger
> (hx) machines which require very little flushing. The double boiler machines are the
> Alex Duetto and the Vibiemme Double Domobar; the hx machines are the Vibiemme
> Domobar Super, and the entire line of Rocket Espresso machines. These two hx
> ...



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2N6I6TsirB8BFGtl89ISMb[/URL]


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## rockbox (Nov 28, 2020)




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## rockbox (Nov 28, 2020)

_But real espresso geeks don't talk machines, they talk about grinders. I have a Eureka Mignon Specialists and 5 Mazzer Majors. I will probably pick up a Niche Zero within the next few months._


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## WildBoar (Nov 28, 2020)

Well damn, I just saw these thread updates 2 minutes after I brewed an espresso for my wife and she took it downstairs. And i suck at latte art, so I never screw around with anything decorative in our cappas.


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## MarcelNL (Nov 28, 2020)

looking good there!

I can't be bothered with latte art, much more than a tiny fern is beyond me ;-)

The Urania has a 5 L boiler, I've never run out of steam or water serving groups (loong ago that WAS common) and once I need to refill it heats up real fast as all of the metal mass holds on to heat quite well.

grinders, YES!


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## rockbox (Nov 28, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> looking good there!
> 
> I can't be bothered with latte art, much more than a tiny fern is beyond me ;-)
> 
> ...



5L boiler? How long does that bad boy take to warm up?


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## MarcelNL (Nov 28, 2020)

rockbox said:


> 5L boiler? How long does that bad boy take to warm up?



I usually fill up to approx 3 L, takes around 20-30 min to the first shot, 40-45 min to full warm up super shots.


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## WildBoar (Nov 28, 2020)

eh, I leave mine on 24/7. We use it too much during the day to turn it off. I used to use the timer function to turn it on in the morning, but it really turned into an annoying alarm clock.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Nov 28, 2020)

Just my opinion, but I think my doubler boiler is more temp stable than my HX. We are all entitled to our own opinion, and none of us (that I know of) are barista's and espresso machine engineers. I have business degrees, so my opinion doesn't mean much, my comments are only experience.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 28, 2020)

rockbox said:


> BTW, with a double boiler, you actually have to do a warming flush if you have a standard E61 grouphead



For sure... I believe even in the old saturated group heads you had to. Albeit for a different reason... In some of the original La Marzocco designs, the brew pathway exited the boiler, travelled on top of the boiler/group and dove back into the shower screen - or something like that? This meant the lines could hold several millilitres of colder water that needed to be flushed out (even though the group was at a stable temperature).


Still! I'd rather do a warming flush than a cooling flush... You can't warm the group to a temperature higher than the brew water! Cooling is more finicky.... the lower limit is more complex. It is a function of the boiler temperature, the flow rate and temperature of water entering the HX and the coil power. In the worst case (lower limit), a cooling flush could bring the group back down to ambient! Of course any machine worth a dime wouldnt be that dysfunctional. Point being... a cooling flush is less predictable!


One thing is for sure... a PID is better than a 'bang-bang' pressurestat (as in many entry/mid HX machines). As noted earlier.. that is fine for steam but rather crude for brew water.


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## MarcelNL (Nov 29, 2020)

There are many ways to skin the temp stability cat, brute mass, the good old mercury switch bellows system, a pressurestat, blowing off steam like as in the Faemina works too; they all have drawbacks.

A PID is surely the most advanced method, one drawback is that both the PID regulation may have a hiccup and the SSR's sometimes fail (especially whenn not properly cooled) so you need some additional failsafe measures to avoid a meltdown.


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## WPerry (Nov 29, 2020)

rockbox said:


> Double boiler machines are not inherently more stable. There is no temperature surfing with my Rocket HX with a PID since Rocket modifies their E61 grouphead to avoid overheating. BTW, with a double boiler, you actually have to do a warming flush if you have a standard E61 grouphead. Since the boiler temperature is not high enough to keep the grouphead warm enough. This is from the Eric's grouphead thermometer manual
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2N6I6TsirB8BFGtl89ISMb[/URL]



Double boilers aren't inherently more stable because a few of the dozens of HX machines on the market have been modified to be more stable than a typical HX? Cool.


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## rockbox (Nov 29, 2020)

WPerry said:


> Double boilers aren't inherently more stable because a few of the dozens of HX machines on the market have been modified to be more stable than a typical HX? Cool.



Read the quote from post. There are only 2 double boiler e61 machines on the market that doesn't require a warming flush.


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## WPerry (Nov 29, 2020)

rockbox said:


> Read the quote from post. There are only 2 double boiler e61 machines on the market that doesn't require a warming flush.



Ah, and because 3 > 2, that means HX means are inherently more stable - got it.


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## Lars (Nov 29, 2020)

I have never pulled a shot on any machine without flushing the group first. You guys are freaks.


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