# Which 210mm Gyuto Should I Buy?



## scotts (May 21, 2012)

So after using my new Yoshihiro 240mm Wa-Gyuto for sometime my newly found addiction has kicked in and I "need" to buy another Gyuto. This one is going to be more for my wife who although loves the Yoshihiro and it's 240mm length wants something in the 210mm length.

What type of knife(s) do you think you want? I'm looking at a Gyuto (had considered a Santoku but a Gyuto seems like a better all purpose knife)

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing? I'm craving something new haha, it is somewhat replacing my cheapo Henckels International Chef's 210mm and Henckels 4-Star Santoku 170mm? (I believe).

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
Aesthetics- I personally love my Wa handle but this one will need to be a Westeren Handle. Other then that I'll look at Damascus and regular it doesn't matter. 
Edge Quality/Retention- I like the edge quality but I find the knife pulls to the left when cutting through food. I'm guessing this is because of the grind/bevel or the knifes thickness? I thought Jon had said it was a 50/50 bevel edge but to me it looks like a chisel grind, I may be remembering incorrectly. Either way how do I correct the "pulling" issue?






Ease of Use- I love the weight of the Yoshihiro, obviously moving to a Western handle weight is most likely going to go up and shift the balance to the handle with most knives (the ones I've looked at anyways).
Comfort- To me the Wa handle is nice and thick and easy to grip, I would like the same size roughly however smooth i.e. Western not octagonal shape.

What grip do you use? Pinch grip for me, wife sometimes uses Hammer grip.

What kind of cutting motion do you use? Push-cut and Rock.

Where do you store them? Knife Block, or Saya. 

Have you ever oiled a handle? Yes.

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use? Wood only.

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing? Stone.

Have they ever been sharpened? No.

What is your budget? I'm looking at around $100-$200. Yeah I know it's a big range but I'm willing to go the top end of my budget if it means something a little more durable.

What do you cook and how often? Lately (last 3-4 months) because of health issues we cook every meal from scratch with fresh ingredients. Mostly chicken with a mix of fish, meat and some pork.

Special requests(Country of origin/type of wood/etc)? Durability on both the handle and blade, if I'm around I'll be washing/drying the knife immediately after each use but other wise it may sit around after being used. 


So far these are knives I'm considering, I'm open to suggestions though.

JCK Original "KAGAYAKI" KV-5 210mm $108 (Sale Price?)
http://japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIVG-10.html

Kanetsugu SAIUN Damascus Gyuto SD-05 200mm ($160)
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SaiunDamascusSeries.html#SD-5

Kanetsugu Pro J Gyuto 200mm ($135)
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ProJSeries.html#PJ-04
Does anyone know much about Za-18 steel? I can't find reviews or anything, but it seems like this knife may be a little less stainless then the VG10 others?

Hiromoto Tenmi-Jyuraku Gingami No.3 Series TJ-25g3 ($124)
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/Page4.html#TJ-25G3

JCK Gekko GE-4 ($124)
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SPECIALS.html#Gekko Gyuto


----------



## Crothcipt (May 21, 2012)

za-18 has been around a while, from what was on Zknives.com (love that site)

there is a few things written at the bottom of the graph you prob. can look up.
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/za-18.shtml

from your pic, it looks like someone sharpened it to go one side is why you are getting stearing.


----------



## 99Limited (May 21, 2012)

Have you looked at Carter's sfgz funayuki's with the riveted handles? I know they're not pretty, but the one have is one of my favorite knives. They're just a simple, honest cutting machine. They are carbon clad so require a little extra care, but it's not that big of a deal. Currently he has a 5.8 sun(6 1/4") that's available.


----------



## obtuse (May 21, 2012)

Double post please delete


----------



## obtuse (May 21, 2012)

Take a look at the CarboNext or a gesshin ginga. You cant go wrong with either of those.


----------



## scotts (May 21, 2012)

For this knife purchase I want to stay pure stainless. I'm adding another knife to my list that I missed.

Hattori HD-7 ($172)
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HDSeries.html#HD Gyuto


----------



## 99Limited (May 21, 2012)

Have you looked at Jon's offerings? There's the Ashi 210mm western, Gesshin Ginga 210mm western, Suien VC 210mm western and the Suisin INOX 210mm western. The Gesshin is a little over your budget, but the other three fit nicely.


----------



## scotts (May 21, 2012)

99Limited said:


> Have you looked at Jon's offerings? There's the Ashi 210mm western, Gesshin Ginga 210mm western, Suien VC 210mm western and the Suisin INOX 210mm western. The Gesshin is a little over your budget, but the other three fit nicely.



No I had started by looking at a Nakiri in Stainless and Jon didn't have to many so I jumped to JCK and then started looking at a Santoku, and then a Gyuto :biggrin: but now I'm feeling even more overwhelmed with more knife choices from JKI. I'll take the Suien out of the running though because of the carbon. The others looks nice, although I don't know if I want to jump into the price range of the Gesshin or I might have to take a few more knives into consideration.


----------



## Johnny.B.Good (May 21, 2012)

You might give Jon at JKI a call if you haven't already. He has a number of "budget" offerings that do not appear on his website. I ordered a Western handled stainless santoku from him for my mother that was very reasonable (in fact, he tells me that his own mother uses the same one), and if I recall correctly he had a gyuto from the same maker.

Lots of good choices have already been mentioned, but the service and support from JKI is second to none.


----------



## 99Limited (May 21, 2012)

I did a little more digging for you. How about a Konosuke Stainless 210mm for $175 at C K T G? Or we can knock off $100 and go for a Fujiwara FKM for $75 at JCK. I've been using the FKM for a little over a year and have been really happy with it. I bought it as an introduction to Japanese knives and frankly, I could have stopped right there.


----------



## scotts (May 22, 2012)

In the case of the Konosuke Stainless, Ashi Stainless or even perhaps a Sakai Yusuke (Bluewayjapan on ebay) they are considered "laser" knives right? Would I be right in assuming they are a little more delicate compared to other beefier knives? The better question would be are they suited for the same cutting style as thicker gyuto's? I may have to leave them for a future purchase (after I buy a Nakiri, Lefty got me hooked on his!).

In my searching I couldn't find exactly how a laser is different just that they are, I would love to know why though.


----------



## Lefty (May 22, 2012)

Scott, if you want it, it's yours. As much as I love it, it doesn't get used much, and I think this forum has some good vibes going right now. I want to keep them going. PM me, man! 

I just had a great idea. We can do a little passaround, since so many people haven't used a Yamawaku. It can make its rounds and settle at your place.


----------



## Deckhand (May 22, 2012)

scotts said:


> In the case of the Konosuke Stainless, Ashi Stainless or even perhaps a Sakai Yusuke (Bluewayjapan on ebay) they are considered "laser" knives right? Would I be right in assuming they are a little more delicate compared to other beefier knives? The better question would be are they suited for the same cutting style as thicker gyuto's? I may have to leave them for a future purchase (after I buy a Nakiri, Lefty got me hooked on his!).
> 
> In my searching I couldn't find exactly how a laser is different just that they are, I would love to know why though.


This link should help.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4904-Gyuto-Mighty-vs-Laser

That being said my Sakai yusuke doesn't feel delicate and I like it a lot.
I also prefer wa handled. I have a misono ux10 western handle with saya that just sits in the box, but honestly that is probably because it's 210mm


----------



## 99Limited (May 22, 2012)

"Laser" does not mean "Fragile" or even delicate. A good laser will slip through a potato like it's cutting through a mound of flour. You might not want to use a laser to cut really hard cheeses like Parmesan, but for the most part they can do anything a more robust knife can do.


----------



## 99Limited (May 22, 2012)

Deckhand said:


> ... I have a misono ux10 western handle with saya that just sits in the box, but honestly that is probably because it's 210mm



You two should do business together. It doesn't seem that long ago that Misono UX10 was one of *The Knives* to have.


----------



## Deckhand (May 22, 2012)

99Limited said:


> You two should do business together. It doesn't seem that long ago that Misono UX10 was one of *The Knives* to have.


Honestly,the whole reason I haven't bothered with it yet is the whole photobucket thing. Bought it very early on in my knife progression from Korin. Agree it's a great knife. Had them professionally sharpen it before they sent it. Just decided I am a 270mm-300mm type of guy. Anyone that wants it. I will sell for 80% of listed price and throw in saya. If people want the pics or it didn't happen they can wait for the weekend when my wife can help or I can email interested people photos off my iPad.


----------



## tk59 (May 22, 2012)

Meh. I don't find the UX10 all that impressive. I would get the Kag VG10 of of your list. :yuck: The Gekko is nice. Pro J is a nice cutter but I find the handles odd feeling and there's quite a belly on some models. The stain resistance is at least as good as your typical VG10. I'd recommend Suisin INOX.


----------



## Deckhand (May 22, 2012)

tk59 said:


> Meh. I don't find the UX10 all that impressive. I would get the Kag VG10 of of your list. :yuck: The Gekko is nice. Pro J is a nice cutter but I find the handles odd feeling and there's quite a belly on some models. The stain resistance is at least as good as your typical VG10. I'd recommend Suisin INOX.



Ha ha certainly didn't start this as an offer thread TK. I hope he gets something from Jon.


----------



## scotts (May 22, 2012)

tk59 said:


> Meh. I don't find the UX10 all that impressive. I would get the Kag VG10 of of your list. :yuck: The Gekko is nice. Pro J is a nice cutter but I find the handles odd feeling and there's quite a belly on some models. The stain resistance is at least as good as your typical VG10. I'd recommend Suisin INOX.



Out of curiosity why not the Kag VG10, is it the handle you dislike or the blade?


----------



## Duckfat (May 22, 2012)

The Kagayaki VG-10 is a very nice knife. I have the WA Kagayaki and it amazes me what a good blade that is for the price. 

Dave


----------



## Lefty (May 22, 2012)

Just shouting this out:
Five person passaround for the Yamawaku Nakiri, ending at the new owner, Scott. I mentioned before I was blown away by his generosity, so I'm paying him back . It's a great blade, by a great maker, whose work most of us haven't tried. If anyone is interested, I'm starting a thread in the passaround section.


----------



## scotts (May 24, 2012)

Lefty said:


> Just shouting this out:
> Five person passaround for the Yamawaku Nakiri, ending at the new owner, Scott. I mentioned before I was blown away by his generosity, so I'm paying him back . It's a great blade, by a great maker, whose work most of us haven't tried. If anyone is interested, I'm starting a thread in the passaround section.



Thanks again Lefty, I'm so excited to use that knife again! And you are the generous one :biggrin:.

I was talking with my wife today (as she was laughing at me for being so excited about sharpening my knives) and she pointed out that besides wanting a 210mm for ease of use (regarding its length) she mentioned having to lift up the knife when using a push/pull cut and how it hurts her wrist (she has some major issues with her wrist sometimes). Now besides length I guess I'm going to look at something with a lot of belly. Now of the knives that have been mentioned which do you think have quite a bit of belly and would be easier on her wrist, from a quick glance the Saiun to me looks like it has a fair bit.

So as a recap:

-$100-$200
-210mm Gyuto
-Western Handle
-Easy on the wrist i.e. weight wise
-Lots of belly
-Durable blade and handle.
-Stainless


----------



## 99Limited (May 24, 2012)

I would think that a push cut would be the most wrist friendly cutting motion you could do. You have one straight line from your elbow to the tip of the knife and working your arm in a motion similar to a steam engine.


----------



## tk59 (May 24, 2012)

No, I think I understand. To do push-cutting, I think the hand has to bend out at the wrist more to keep the blade straighter ahead whereas rock-chopping is done with the blade nearly perpendicular to the forearm so the hand doesn't have to bend out as much at the wrist. 

For more belly, maybe go with: Kanetsugu Pro J, maybe Pro M (small but nice western handles), Shun.


----------



## Vertigo (May 24, 2012)

Only if you're standing square to the board, which is sloppy technique by most standards. If you stand with your dominant side slightly angled away from the board, your "good" foot back about a foot's length from the other, your wrist doesn't move or bend at all when push cutting and it keeps your blade perpendicular to the board. It's also a more comfortable position for long term cutting, which makes for less overall fatigue.


----------



## Deckhand (May 24, 2012)

scotts said:


> Thanks again Lefty, I'm so excited to use that knife again! And you are the generous one :biggrin:.
> 
> I was talking with my wife today (as she was laughing at me for being so excited about sharpening my knives) and she pointed out that besides wanting a 210mm for ease of use (regarding its length) she mentioned having to lift up the knife when using a push/pull cut and how it hurts her wrist (she has some major issues with her wrist sometimes). Now besides length I guess I'm going to look at something with a lot of belly. Now of the knives that have been mentioned which do you think have quite a bit of belly and would be easier on her wrist, from a quick glance the Saiun to me looks like it has a fair bit.
> 
> ...



This may sound odd, but here goes. Buy the knife you like. Like getting one from Jon. Buy her this.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000F74PYA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

They have other colors for handle like pink too. This knife is sharp, light, easy to clean. She will be happy and you will be happy. It will be easy on her wrist. I have had one for years still works great. Even bought my mom one.


----------



## James (May 24, 2012)

scotts said:


> Thanks again Lefty, I'm so excited to use that knife again! And you are the generous one :biggrin:.
> 
> I was talking with my wife today (as she was laughing at me for being so excited about sharpening my knives) and she pointed out that besides wanting a 210mm for ease of use (regarding its length) she mentioned having to lift up the knife when using a push/pull cut and how it hurts her wrist (she has some major issues with her wrist sometimes). Now besides length I guess I'm going to look at something with a lot of belly. Now of the knives that have been mentioned which do you think have quite a bit of belly and would be easier on her wrist, from a quick glance the Saiun to me looks like it has a fair bit.
> 
> ...



carbonext, hiro g3, konosuke, and sakai yusuke all come to mind. maybe even shun...


----------



## 99Limited (May 24, 2012)

You want something with a big belly? Here you go.


----------



## tk59 (May 24, 2012)

Vertigo said:


> Only if you're standing square to the board, which is sloppy technique by most standards. If you stand with your dominant side slightly angled away from the board, your "good" foot back about a foot's length from the other, your wrist doesn't move or bend at all when push cutting and it keeps your blade perpendicular to the board. It's also a more comfortable position for long term cutting, which makes for less overall fatigue.


I think you are misunderstanding. What I was trying to convey is completely independent of stance and orientation with respect to the board. It has only to do with the angle defined by points at your elbow, center of your wrist and the knuckle on your middle finger.


----------



## Vertigo (May 24, 2012)

Erm. Maybe I *am* misunderstanding. You were just talking about how pushing cutting requires you to bend your wrist to keep the knife _"straighter ahead"_ and rock chopping lets you hold it _"perpendicular."_ Both the things I quoted and italicized are relative explicitly (through the magic of geometry) to your stance and to the orientation of your board.  If you alter your stance, the need to bend your wrist to keep the knife "straighter ahead" goes away. It's just like shooting a pool cue. Nobody shoots a pool cue with a bent wrist, and nobody cuts a few hundred gallons of celery with a bent wrist either. The way I--and apparently 99 as well--cuts is much closer to the "steam engine" analogy. The only thing that gets worn out after a crazy long day of cutting is my shoulder.


----------



## tk59 (May 25, 2012)

The "straight" and the "perpendicular" refer to the direction of the blade relative to the forearm, rather than the board. It was thinking about this stuff while sitting at my desk, holding a knife in a pinch grip, lol. After standing at a cutting board at home, I see what you're talking about but it still seems to me that push-cutting while using a pinch grip does not allow the elbow-wrist-knuckle to line-up naturally.


----------



## 99Limited (May 25, 2012)

When I hold a knife in a pinch grip my elbow and wrist line up with the knuckles dropping down a few degrees. So you're right the three points technically are not in a straight line. But what I was trying to suggest to the OP that push cutting should be more friendly on the wrist since it's locked in place. Otherwise if his wife was rock chopping that's all wrist action.


----------



## tk59 (May 25, 2012)

@scotts: I have the western handled Kag VG-10. It is a nice cutter, esp for the price. Somehow, nobody likes it. I use it as my loaner knife. Exactly why? I suppose it is the handle mostly. It is an odd purple color, too smooth and slick and the fit and finish on the bolsters is just bad enough where it looks cheap and well... bad. It doesn't feel great in hand either. I'd think about it some more but it is on semi-permanent loan even now.

@Deckhand: I didn't mean to dis you or your knife. I remember being so torn between getting a UX10 and a Glestain (which I still love) for my first gyuto. I went with a Glestain. Later on, I had the opportunity to try out a UX10 and while it is a nice knife, I didn't think it was as magical as the reviews I'd read lead me to believe and with the massive price increase last year...

@99: I agree. I figured some wrist positions were bothering her more than others.


----------



## Deckhand (May 25, 2012)

tk59 said:


> @scotts: I have the western handled Kag VG-10. It is a nice cutter, esp for the price. Somehow, nobody likes it. I use it as my loaner knife. Exactly why? I suppose it is the handle mostly. It is an odd purple color, too smooth and slick and the fit and finish on the bolsters is just bad enough where it looks cheap and well... bad. It doesn't feel great in hand either. I'd think about it some more but it is on semi-permanent loan even now.
> 
> @Deckhand: I didn't mean to dis you or your knife. I remember being so torn between getting a UX10 and a Glestain (which I still love) for my first gyuto. I went with a Glestain. Later on, I had the opportunity to try out a UX10 and while it is a nice knife, I didn't think it was as magical as the reviews I'd read lead me to believe and with the massive price increase last year...
> 
> @99: I agree. I figured some wrist positions were bothering her more than others.




Thanks TK I was aware it was originally almost a holy grail knife, and had lost major popularity after the price increase. Wasn't worth it to fight with you, and I appreciate your opinions as someone who has experienced a lot of knives. I am not excited easily and am very attached to wa knives in 270mm to 300mm now so no issue here. Just want it to go to a good home.


----------



## Cadillac J (May 25, 2012)

tk59 said:


> seems to me that push-cutting while using a pinch grip does not allow the elbow-wrist-knuckle to line-up naturally



There is your problem right there...don't use a pinch grip when push-cutting (or with any j-knife for that matter--sans a cleaver). It's function is much better suited for stability with Euro blades and rock n' rolling...if you just use a light hammer or pointer grip, you shouldn't have the same wrist issues, as pinching on the blade torques your wrist more.

Give it a try, you might like it better.


----------

