# Endgrain Cutting block



## Dhoff (Jan 28, 2019)

Hi everyone,

I was wondering what the reason is for taking tiny pieces and gluing them together when making an endgrain cutting block. Why not use larger pieces or even one big? Is it purely aesthetic?


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

Larger pieces are more likely to split as the wood contracts and expands with changes in humidity and temperature.


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

The prevention of splitting, cracking and warping. The best boards are at least 3 inches / 60mm thick and use quarter-sawn pieces that all the same size and placed next to each other in offset patterns. The rest are just bling boards (3-D patterns, dragon pictures, etc).

Most of the quarter-sawn branches are not that large, so neither are the quarter pieces. The large, main tree trunk portions are reserved for peeling into vaneer (where they command far more money).

Chinese boards are often thick trunk slices wrapped with a metal band.


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

podzap said:


> The best boards are at least 3 inches / 60mm thick


Just being a pedant: 3 inches are 76.2 mm. 60 mm are 2.36 inches.



> Chinese boards are often thick trunk slices wrapped with a metal band.


Sounds like the same idea as the steel bands around barrels. Do you have a link to picture(s)? This is the first time I've heard about a cutting board with a steel surround.


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

Michi said:


> Sounds like the same idea as the steel bands around barrels. Do you have a link to picture(s)? This is the first time I've heard about a cutting board with a steel surround.



For example, this one:

https://mountain-woods.myshopify.com/products/extra-thick-acacia-steel-banded-round-board


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

Here's another more classic example: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1154/0516/products/Elm_Chopping_Block_1_700_large.jpg?v=1544504300


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

Wow, thanks for that! I really like that second one. That looks like a cutting board for a _man_! 

I'd love to have something like that. Except that it would stick out like tits on a bull in the style of kitchen I have.

Sigh… Maybe next life time!


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

Michi said:


> Wow, thanks for that! I really like that second one. That looks like a cutting board for a _man_!
> 
> I'd love to have something like that. Except that it would stick out like tits on a bull in the style of kitchen I have.
> 
> Sigh… Maybe next life time!



Maybe the Boos would carry a higher WAF 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DJIMG20/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

Who needs a cutting board, anyway? If you design your kitchen such that you are able to chop up a quarter of a cow at once


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

podzap said:


> Maybe the Boos would carry a higher WAF


The problem isn't the WAF, it's the HAF (Husband Acceptance Factor). It really wouldn't fit in with my style of kitchen.

But, come to think of it, this might be the perfect excuse to finally buy that rustic retreat holiday home in the bush. The board would fit in perfectly with such a place. "Honey, I really need that cutting board, so we have to buy a matching house!"…


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

podzap said:


> Who needs a cutting board, anyway? If you design your kitchen such that you are able to chop up a quarter of a cow at once


Bloody gorgeous!


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## Mucho Bocho (Jan 28, 2019)

I’ve got a couple of custom maple and walnut board no complaints but I really love the look of those Larchwood boards. Not cheap but just gorgeous. I would NOT want a metal band on the board. Perfect place for bacterial to live plus PIA at clean up time.


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I’ve got a couple of custom maple and walnut board no complaints but I really love the look of those Larchwood boards. Not cheap but just gorgeous. I would NOT want a metal band on the board. Perfect place for bacterial to live plus PIA at clean up time.



 You do realise that butchers in most of the world don't even wear shirts while working?


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I’ve got a couple of custom maple and walnut board no complaints but I really love the look of those Larchwood boards. Not cheap but just gorgeous. I would NOT want a metal band on the board. Perfect place for bacterial to live plus PIA at clean up time.


I hear you, but wouldn't be too concerned about bacteria. Cleaning any decent-size end-grain board is a PITA anyway, because the dang things are big and heavy. But, once dry, the bacteria will just quietly die, whether there is a metal band or not.

As a side note, I think the whole bacteria thing is grossly exaggerated. Not that I'm being deliberately lax about hygiene in my kitchen. But, let's face it: we are are surrounded by bacteria. So much so that more than half the cells in our bodies are bacteria.

I've spent months in West Africa, with nothing that we would call sanitation, no clean water supply, no chlorination, etc. People (a dozen at a time) eat food with their hands out of a communal bowl, and water is served in a big jug that is passed around from person to person, with everyone taking a swig. Not what most people would call "hygienic". And, guess what? People there don't drop like flies, despite the (to me) horrifying food handling practices.

The point is that it is actually quite difficult to kill a human being with only bacteria. It simply doesn't happen very often, metal bands or no metal bands.

If you want to kill someone reliably, try a bullet. Works much better than bacteria


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

Michi said:


> I hear you, but wouldn't be too concerned about bacteria. Cleaning any decent-size end-grain board is a PITA anyway, because the dang things are big and heavy. But, once dry, the bacteria will just quietly die, whether there is a metal band or not.



The way I have always seen pro butchers clean them (in Greece, for example) is to sprinkle rock salt across the surface, cut a lemon in half and use both halves to scrub her down. Wipe smooth with some olive oil. That's it. End of cleaning.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jan 28, 2019)

Michi, I totally agree w you about sanitation in general. But at some point the bioload will and could get dangerous. Plus I think people w compromised immune systems might disagree w you.


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

podzap said:


> The way I have always seen pro butchers clean them (in Greece, for example) is to sprinkle rock salt across the surface, cut a lemon in half and use both halves to scrub her down. Wipe smooth with some olive oil. That's it. End of cleaning.


I have no doubt that this actually works. For one, salt and acid are really good at attacking micro-organisms.
And, second, oil cuts off air supply, which gets rid of aerobic bacteria.

More pragmatically: this particular practice in Greece exists only because it works. If it didn't work, there wouldn't be any Greek butchers left who clean their boards with salt, lemon, and oil, because they all would have long ago been killed by all the bacteria they failed to kill…

Side note: At a recent visit at my dentist, I asked whether anti-bacterial mouth wash would be advisable. He hesitated for a moment, and then told me that, actually, he wasn't a fan of that. He explained that, by using anti-bacterial mouth wash regularly, what I'm doing is wiping out billions of bacteria in my mouth every day.

So far, so good. Except that, the bacteria that are left behind are precisely the ones that are best at not dying when someone pours lots of disinfectant on them. He then explained that, as such, this isn't a problem. Until the day that I walk in with some gum infection that cannot be treated with conventional means because I've been carefully breeding my mouth flora into antiseptic resistance for the past twenty years…

For the same reasons, a lot of health authorities now advise against the use of anti-bacterial soap. It's not necessary; normal soap does almost as good a job at removing bacteria from our skin. And it does it without breeding those bacteria into super-bugs by ongoing exposure to disinfectants.

Do I have a clean kitchen? Yes.

Do I use soap each and every time I wash up a dish or a cutting board? No.

If the only thing I cut on a board is a cucumber or carrot, or anything else that isn't fatty or sugary, there is no need to use soap. The 70+ ºC water that comes out of my tap is plenty good enough to get that board clean.

The fish in our waterways will thank me for not having needlessly dropped another bucket of tensides on them.


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Michi, I totally agree w you about sanitation in general. But at some point the bioload will and could get dangerous. Plus I think people w compromised immune systems might disagree w you.


I hear you. But most people don't have compromised immune systems. (I don't, and no-one I know personally does either.)

The point is that, even if there are a few bacteria lurking behind that steel band, they don't jump around like fleas do. There is at least an inch or more of space between the spot where the bacteria might be, and where I'm cutting the food. To a bacterium, that's about the same as the distance is for us from here to the moon.

Even if some bacteria from that steel band come into contact with the food, so what? The reality is that, every time I cut anything on any of my cutting boards, no matter how clean, I am placing my food onto a bed of millions of bacteria. Yes, I mean it. Those little buggers are everywhere, all the time.

And I'm not worried, despite that. I'm 59 years old. I've made it this far despite all the trillions of bacteria I've been exposed to over that time. Almost all of them are harmless, are in fact necessary for my survival, and my chance of getting run over by a car is far, far greater than the chance of me falling seriously ill because of a bacterium that once lived under a steel band around a cutting board.

Yes, I am practicing good food hygiene in my kitchen. My kitchen is meticulously clean, always.

Can I do something about the bacteria count in my kitchen? Not really. It doesn't matter what I do, they will always be there. All I can do is work cleanly, maximising my chances. And be sensible. Every time I pour another pot of water with dishwashing liquid or antiseptic down the sink, I train the bacteria that live in my drain pipe to get just that little bit better at not getting killed.

So, I clean. With just hot water where appropriate. With soap, if something had fat on it. With vinegar or lemon juice, or commercial dishwashing liquid, if that is called for. With alcohol, if I think there is a chance that something nasty might be around. With caustic soda if need be, if I think something is really dirty.

But I think first, and disinfect second.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jan 28, 2019)

Michi, OK OK, I agree, you make some very good points, just playing devils advocate. I don't like the look of metal bands, can't argue w that ;-)


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Michi, OK OK, I agree, you make some very good points, just playing devils advocate. I don't like the look of metal bands, can't argue w that ;-)


Your right to not like the look of metal bands is fundamental and unalienable


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## Michi (Jan 28, 2019)

podzap said:


> You do realise that butchers in most of the world don't even wear shirts while working?


I've been watching the playlist of videos that Jon posted on his site. (I did finally make it to the end.) They are really, really interesting!

The final few videos in the playlist are about butchering techniques. Those guys do know how to handle a knife! What amused me is that they look almost like astronauts. Breathing mask, head cover, gloves that are sealed against the cuffs of their jackets…

They basically look like people in hazmat suits. All the while cutting up a carcass that is swarming with trillions of bacteria. It does look like overkill.

Yes, good food hygiene standards undeniably contribute to food safety. Enforcing those standards by law does indeed make sense. But I do wonder how much of this is done to protect against a trigger-happy lawsuit culture rather than against the bacteria that might harm someone.


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## larrybard (Jan 28, 2019)

Michi said:


> More pragmatically: this particular practice in Greece exists only because it works. If it didn't work, there wouldn't be any Greek butchers left who clean their boards with salt, lemon, and oil, because they all would have long ago been killed by all the bacteria they failed to kill…


Or at least the butchers' customers would have all been killed (even if the butchers themselves might not have).


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

I forked this off-topic discussion greek butchers to a new thread.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/the-greek-butcher-block-thread.40151/


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## bahamaroot (Jan 28, 2019)

podzap said:


> ...The best boards are at least 3 inches / 60mm thick ...


Wrong. Spoke directly to David Smith, former owner of BoardSmith, and was told me that anything over 2" thick is purely aesthetic and did nothing to increase the strength or stability of the board. Does nothing but make it heavier.


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## podzap (Jan 28, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Wrong. Spoke directly to David Smith, former owner of BoardSmith, and was told me that anything over 2" thick is purely aesthetic and did nothing to increase the strength or stability of the board. Does nothing but make it heavier.



Mr. Smith is a businessman with a vested interested in the company, even if he is retired now 

Thicker boards are costlier to produce in terms of materials and costlier to ship in terms of weight. Boardsmith sells 2 inch thick boards for comparable prices (or even far more) to what other companies sell 3 inch thick boards. That is, they have a motivation for making that assertion - it strongly affects their bottom line. Most people are only going to use them to chop onions on, anyway.

Thinner boards also have more WAF because women are generally shorter than men. This is probably why you see a lot of thick boards countersunk into home kitchen countertops - to reduce the height so that SWMBO doesn't need to stand on a stepstool just to use the damn thing!

I did not specify exactly what I meant by best, so I will do it now: 

1. Thinner boards are lighter and they can accidentally slide around easier than thicker boards. I don't think anyone would want their board to move due to swinging a cleaver at it. There is a reason why butchers use 12 or even 16 inch thick blocks and it is not aesthetics.

2. Thinner boards contain less surface on which to spread glue, which means that the glue joints will split easier when swinging at them with a heavy cleaver or when expanding and contracting due to humidity changes during winter and summer.

3. If you decide to sand down a 3 inch thick board, it is still much thicker than 2 inches.

4. And last but not least, plenty of idiots will be tempted by the impulse to put a 2 inch board into the dishwasher. A 3 inch board, not so much - it's too heavy and thick enough that it even manages to counter the idiot impulse.

I have thin composite boards for slicing onions and such, but when I'm breaking down an entire beef rib section in my kitchen (something I do from time to time) then I want a board that will take all the abuse I can offer


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## doomtop (Jan 28, 2019)

More thickness equals more weight and makes the board sturdier.


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## mc2442 (Jan 28, 2019)

I am pretty sure there are hundreds and hundreds of Boardsmith boards owned by the people who have frequented this site over time, and a lot have had them for quite a few years. I have owned a few and given a few away as gifts. I have never had an issue with my 2"thick boards, and given their well deserved reputation I think there is a lot of evidence that suggests you can have a stable quality board under 3".

Given that most people are not hacking away in the kitchen with a large cleaver....your circumstances are a little different than most. I like rubber feet on mine, never had an issue with it sliding around. And my main board is 16" x 22", even an idiot would not try to put it in a dishwasher, and if an owner of a smaller board does so after all the warnings and common sense.....maybe they should not have nice things.

I would love to have an island butcher block though, not going to lie.


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## bahamaroot (Jan 29, 2019)

podzap said:


> Mr. Smith is a businessman with a vested interested in the company, even if he is retired now
> 
> Thicker boards are costlier to produce in terms of materials and costlier to ship in terms of weight. Boardsmith sells 2 inch thick boards for comparable prices (or even far more) to what other companies sell 3 inch thick boards. *That is, they have a motivation for making that assertion* - it strongly affects their bottom line. Most people are only going to use them to chop onions on, anyway.....


Total BS.


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## milkbaby (Jan 30, 2019)

3" thick boards are not practical for most users. A small 12" x 18" board that is 2" thick is relatively heavy, now add 50% more weight by making it 3". Then factor in the average person who wants to wash that in their kitchen sink may have issues simply picking it up and maneuvering it. That doesn't include height issues when it comes to shorter users either...

Boos makes a zillion more end grain cutting boards than probably all the small artisan makers combined and their best selling boards are not over 2 inches thick. Pretty sure they're not getting bankrupted by having to repair or replace the majority of their boards?


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## podzap (Jan 30, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> Then factor in the average person who wants to wash that in their kitchen sink may have issues simply picking it up and maneuvering it



They are not supposed to be washed in sinks, exposed to running water, dish soap, etc. Get a little plastic cutting board if that's the way you want to handle it.


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## Michi (Jan 30, 2019)

The biggest problem I see with something that's 3 inches thick is that it raises the cutting surface a lot. For shorter people, that might well be a problem. Even 2 inches can be pushing it, depending on the height of the existing bench tops.

Definitely something worth trying out first. Just stack some cutting boards on top of each other, or put a cutting board on a stack of newspaper or some such, so it is at the expected height. Then prepare a few meals to see whether you can live with that height.


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## podzap (Jan 30, 2019)

Michi said:


> The biggest problem I see with something that's 3 inches thick is that it raises the cutting surface a lot. For shorter people, that might well be a problem. Even 2 inches can be pushing it, depending on the height of the existing bench tops.
> 
> Definitely something worth trying out first. Just stack some cutting boards on top of each other, or put a cutting board on a stack of newspaper or some such, so it is at the expected height. Then prepare a few meals to see whether you can live with that height.



We already have one so the height is ok. I just wanted a much bigger one and walnut instead of acacia. It is already being shipped now, end-grain black walnut, 16x20x3 inches.


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## mc2442 (Jan 30, 2019)

I don't think there is any problem washing it in a sink for using dish soap. You are not suppose to leave it sitting in water, but washing it off is fine. And why would dish soap be an issue? Personally mine would be a PITA to wash in the sink, but I will sometimes us a soapy sponge if it is called for, but normally just use a damp paper towel and mix in some white vinegar/water solution when called for.

You have a very odd source of information vs everything I have read.


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## podzap (Jan 30, 2019)

mc2442 said:


> I don't think there is any problem washing it in a sink for using dish soap. You are not suppose to leave it sitting in water, but washing it off is fine. And why would dish soap be an issue? Personally mine would be a PITA to wash in the sink, but I will sometimes us a soapy sponge if it is called for, but normally just use a damp paper towel and mix in some white vinegar/water solution when called for.
> 
> You have a very odd source of information vs everything I have read.



I also don't wash my cast iron cookware unless it's enameled. Nor do I keep my eggs in the refrigerator 

If I happened to be running a business in the lawsuit-happy USA then I'd also tell you to strip the board down with bleach after every use


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## Mucho Bocho (Jan 30, 2019)

What am I missing? Why does one need to use a metal scraper to maintain their cutting board?

I have a small custom block of maple and walnut and it goes in the sink for a cold water rinse every time I use it. Its 2 inch by 14" square. No warps, cracks or smells and I've never used metal scraper to resurface it. When it looks a little chapped, I rub it with mineral oil, let sit over night, then wipe the excess of the next day. Simple


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## Michi (Jan 30, 2019)

Mucho Bocho said:


> What am I missing? Why does one need to use a metal scraper to maintain their cutting board?


I don't think you need to.

I find a metal scraper a useful tool for cleaning up in between things, though. I have something very similar to this:



It's useful to get food residue off the board after cutting one thing and before starting on the next thing. With a sponge or cloth, especially with fatty foods, there is a tendency to just smear small pieces around on the board instead of getting them off. The scraper gets rid of those little bits cleanly, without smearing them around too much. Then a quick wipe with a moist towel, and I'm good to go for the next round.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jan 30, 2019)

Word Michi, I've got one of those and use it they way you described. Most of the time I use the knife as the food transfer tool, especially my tall ones.


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## Sailor (Jan 31, 2019)

The larchwood boards are made here in Nova Scotia and they really are quite something. They are very edge friendly and they are also self healing. I sharpen every couple of weeks in their store and they have tons of seconds. There is a very cool video on a YouTube on how they are made and it’s well worth watching. I was in the store on their grand opening and they build their front reception desk out of Larchwood, a lady dropped an entire glass of red wine over it and it wiped up without a hint of any stain.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jan 31, 2019)

we chant.. LARCHWOOD, LARCHWOOD, LARCHWOOD!!!


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## HRC_64 (Jan 31, 2019)

FYI....no soap on cutting boards...because soap eats oil...and so it eats the oil in the board.....so its basic chemistry and why people use salt/lemon etc...and why its better to use plastic for proteins and wash with (alot of) soap as there is no oil in the plastic/rubber type boards.

don't get me wrong you can use soap but its just like cast iron pans where the soap eats the seasoning and its just a PITA to reseason it...all the time etc.

hope this explains OK


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## Ruso (Jan 31, 2019)

podzap said:


> I also don't wash my cast iron cookware unless it's enameled. Nor do I keep my eggs in the refrigerator


If you happen to buy eggs in USA or Canada’s grocery stores you better keep them in the refrigerator. 
The eggs are washed/sanitized and are kept refrigerated ever after that proccess.

The eggs in many European countries are kept unwashed which keeps the egg’s natural protective layer. Which allows the eggs to be stores at room temperature.


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## John Loftis (Jan 31, 2019)

podzap said:


> Mr. Smith is a businessman with a vested interested in the company, even if he is retired now
> 
> Thicker boards are costlier to produce in terms of materials and costlier to ship in terms of weight. Boardsmith sells 2 inch thick boards for comparable prices (or even far more) to what other companies sell 3 inch thick boards. That is, they have a motivation for making that assertion - it strongly affects their bottom line. Most people are only going to use them to chop onions on, anyway.
> 
> ...



Ok, Pod, I'll play a bit. No interest in getting in a pissing match, but you've taken some shots here and David's got a very sick wife so probably won't have the time or energy to respond. Neither David or I should need to list our bona fides; we've each made over 10,000 butcher block boards in our careers. The implication that David is prevaricating out of some sort of weird self-interest from his retirement porch in North Carolina is insulting and unnecessary. I hope you'll back off that assertion. I hope you'll also recognize that we know what we're talking about in this niche. 

"Best" is a slippery word. If 3" is good, why not 4"? Why not 36"? It turns into a reductio ad absurdum very quickly. I believe "Best," in this context, should refer to the point at which there is no material increase in benefit. That benefit can be functional or aesthetic. 

The other point that needs to be clarified is 'best' for WHOM? If you are talking about shirtless Greek butchers hacking whole cows apart eight hours a day with cleavers, that's potentially very different than 'best' for a home or professional chef doing meal prep for their families or customers-- just as a tricked out Jeep might be 'best,' at rock crawling but not 'best' on an F1 track. 

Quartersawn wood is not 'best.' That assertion fundamentally mis-understands wood and the way wood moves. I've heard the claim twice in two weeks, now, so I'll correct it again. The key is to either use all quartersawn wood in a block, all riftsawn wood, or all flatsawn wood. In QS wood, you let the wood expand and contract in concert (NOT oppositionally as you assert), in riftsawn wood and flatsawn wood you align the blocks so the movement is oppositional so the forces balance each other. "Best" is being intentional about grain when building the butcher block; it's NOT using only one type of wood grain. 

Block size: "Best" is finding the sweet spot between limiting the natural effects of wood movement and limiting the number of glue joints. My life would be so much easier if I made our blocks using 6-12" wide blocks, allowing each piece of lumber to be whatever it is. But there's a balance to be found, and we've determined that 4" wide blocks is the sweet spot between minimizing the number of glue joints and limiting the effects of wood movement. 

Metal bands or metal rods: Bad idea functionally. Wood needs to move. If you need metal to keep your board together, you aren't building the board properly in the first place. 

Functional thickness: the surface area of the board plays a huge rule in determining 'best' thickness, for 2 reasons. First, you aren't going to hack a cow apart on a 12" X 18" board, or on a 18" X 24" board for that matter. Second, the propensity of a butcher block to warp or crack varies depending on its surface area. In my informed opinion, 2" is the 'best' thickness for boards under 18" X 24". For surface areas larger than that, there is a material benefit in going thicker. From the perspective of structural integrity, I don't see a benefit in going thicker than 3", regardless of surface area. As previously mentioned, a 3"thickness also creates an uncomfortable height for many, so 'best' should take that into account as well. 

Ok, to your points above:
1) sliding around: ok, butchers swinging cleavers all day need a thicker board, and you've decided 3" is where they should be because of 'sliding around'. Not sure why 3" is 'best,' here based on propensity for sliding. Seems fairly arbitrary and silly to me. Might rubber feet or a mat play a role in your hypothetical sliding around scenario? Or is it entirely about thickness? 
2) glue joints splitting easier from cleaver impacts: this assertion fundamentally misunderstands glue adhesion and the causes of wood splitting and cracking. With the current generation of water-proof, PVA glues (eg Titebond III), if you make the butcher block properly (ie using 'best' woodworking techniques), the wood itself will split before the glue joints do. And if you are hitting a butcher block so hard that you make the wood itself crack, then I'll state unequivocally you are doing something wrong. 
3) If you decide to sand it down it's still more than 2": I feel like we're in Spinal Tap and you just turned it up to 11. Because that's one more... rehabbing a board every decade or so generally takes off about 1/16" of thickness. Incremental benefit? Not material. 
4) the dishwasher argument: I've run out of energy and this seems too silly to even respond to. 

Look, pod, if you are talking about true, old school butchers with cleavers, ok... I agree that a thicker, potentially much thicker, block would likely be 'best,' both for reasons mentioned previously and some additional reasons you didn't mention. Those blocks are typically more in the 24-30" X 36-48" surface area, by the way. 

But I don't think that was the original question, nor was the OP identifying as a shirtless Greek butcher when asking the question. You seem to want to play the role of authoritative contrarian, but you are doing so in a pretty disingenuous way. And you are taking some pretty big shots at someone I care about in the process. I hope you'll choose to back off and play nicer.


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## podzap (Jan 31, 2019)

John Loftis said:


> But I don't think that was the original question, nor was the OP identifying as a shirtless Greek butcher when asking the question. You seem to want to play the role of authoritative contrarian, but you are doing so in a pretty disingenuous way. And you are taking some pretty big shots at someone I care about in the process. I hope you'll choose to back off and play nicer.



Dear Sir,

Nowhere inside my post which was quoted by you did I even remotely verge onto the grounds of personally devaluing any individual, and I won't. But if you look at your final paragraph again, you will see that you are asserting that I did exactly that. Realise that the wants and needs of a profit-making business are not necessarily the wants and needs of a private individual; they might be similar but they also might diverge. 10k boards sold does not necessarily make you the expert on what lasts longest but it hopefully gives you very good insight into what is profitable and what is not, otherwise you'd be a fool. I would say that it does give you very good insight into matters like why people complain about splitting in January and February.

I am not playing mean, in fact I am not playing at all. I'm just a private person who is not involved with your business and quite frankly couldn't care less if you succeed or fail - if you were offering what I wanted at a price I thought reasonable, then I'd probably be your customer given the brand recognition.

Additionally, when we are here in a non-vendor sub-forum, we are completely free to conduct conversation in a flippant manner should we deem it entertaining. I don't mean to hurt your feelings but I don't intend to coddle them, either.

Finally, should I desire a thinner board someday then I might look you up. You are a profiteer and as such, you are not even close to being entitled to stand on moral high ground. Be humble, and you will prevail.

Best wishes!


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## podzap (Jan 31, 2019)

Sailor said:


> The larchwood boards are made here in Nova Scotia and they really are quite something. They are very edge friendly and they are also self healing. I sharpen every couple of weeks in their store and they have tons of seconds. There is a very cool video on a YouTube on how they are made and it’s well worth watching. I was in the store on their grand opening and they build their front reception desk out of Larchwood, a lady dropped an entire glass of red wine over it and it wiped up without a hint of any stain.



I googled them and thanks to you for the tip - the pattern is absolutely beautiful!


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## podzap (Jan 31, 2019)

Boardsmith, I apologize if I made your wife feel bad - I hope she feels better soon.


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## mc2442 (Jan 31, 2019)

I definitely agree with John, you have been making odd statements with no empirical evidence to back them up. And you definitely were alluding to ulterior motives for the information they spread. Personally I think you are just trolling and have been given too much attention.


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## Michi (Jan 31, 2019)

John Loftis said:


> In my informed opinion, 2" is the 'best' thickness for boards under 18" X 24". For surface areas larger than that, there is a material benefit in going thicker.


This pretty much matches what MTM Wood require for their custom orders. They say


> _"The thickness of cutting board can not be less than 1/10 of its length."_


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## John Loftis (Jan 31, 2019)

Michi said:


> This pretty much matches what MTM Wood require for their custom orders. They say



Makes sense to me. Our 18 X 24's are often a little thicker than 2". They start at 2 3/16" in the rough, so typically end up 1/16 or more thicker, not counting the feet.


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## Michi (Jan 31, 2019)

I imagine that the 1/10th formula isn't completely hard and fast, more like a good rule of thumb. I'm not a woodworker, but I'd expect that the type of wood might have an influence, too.

As an engineer, I know that limits are rarely hard, and that formulas that deal with stress on physical objects are rarely linear. The 1/10th formula would probably be inappropriate at the extreme ends of the scale, such as for a 1x1" board (which I could snap in half with my fingers at 10/th of an inch), or for 500x500" (which I imagine would break under it's own weight, even if made 50" thick).


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## HRC_64 (Jan 31, 2019)

...if you've ever made anything out of wood you'd also probably
appreciate the sourcing of the wood and the storage of the wood, 
and alot of other variables come into play re: engineering properties.

EU residents for the most part cannot even buy maple boards,
they tend to use euro oak or some other local woods like beech IIRC.


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## Paraffin (Jan 31, 2019)

mc2442 said:


> I would love to have an island butcher block though, not going to lie.



We did a butcher block island in the last remodel, but not to cut on. It's a single 4 foot by 9 foot slab of 2 1/4" thick side grain maple block, with a cut-out for a built-in prep sink. Lots of fun watching the contractor's guys move that thing into the house. It's a great surface for an island, but needs sanding and oiling every few months to keep up with stains and general wear. I would definitely do it again, it looks great.



podzap said:


> They are not supposed to be washed in sinks, exposed to running water, dish soap, etc. Get a little plastic cutting board if that's the way you want to handle it.



True for end-grain hardwood, but that's not the only approach for a cutting board. I know this is going off-topic, but I like using a Hi-Soft hard rubber board for protein, and thin, soft Hinoki cypress boards for vegetables that are easy on the knife edge. They all get washed in a large sink and then stashed in a space under the island. None of these boards move around when cutting, maybe due to the friction of the maple wood island surface. On granite or stainless they would probably be slippery.


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## bahamaroot (Jan 31, 2019)

podzap said:


> Mr. Smith is a businessman with a vested interested in the company, even if he is retired now
> 
> Thicker boards are costlier to produce in terms of materials and costlier to ship in terms of weight. Boardsmith sells 2 inch thick boards for comparable prices (or even far more) to what other companies sell 3 inch thick boards. That is, they have a motivation for making that assertion - it strongly affects their bottom line. Most people are only going to use them to chop onions on, anyway...





podzap said:


> Dear Sir,
> 
> Nowhere inside my post which was quoted by you did I even remotely verge onto the grounds of personally devaluing any individual, and I won't...


A contradiction in the making...


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## podzap (Feb 1, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> ...if you've ever made anything out of wood you'd also probably
> appreciate the sourcing of the wood and the storage of the wood,
> and alot of other variables come into play re: engineering properties.
> 
> ...



Oak, beech and birch are all quite common. A lot of people buy thick face-grain oak countertops and then use a leftover piece for a cutting board. I have a few of those leftover pieces as well sitting in my garage. Oak has too large pores for my liking, however.


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## gman (Feb 1, 2019)

i wash my 2" end grain teak cutting board with soap, and likewise my cast iron skillet. applying oil to them after they are dry has never seemed like too onerous a task. shall i retreat into hiding before the torch and pitchfork crew shows up?


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## Michi (Feb 1, 2019)




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## HRC_64 (Feb 1, 2019)

Michi said:


> View attachment 47952



There's a great future in plastics...


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## Paraffin (Feb 2, 2019)

gman said:


> i wash my 2" end grain teak cutting board with soap, and likewise my cast iron skillet. applying oil to them after they are dry has never seemed like too onerous a task. shall i retreat into hiding before the torch and pitchfork crew shows up?



Soap is evil, but it depends. I'll spray my rubber HiSoft board with soap and brush it off under the sink after cutting protein. If I was in a pro kitchen I'd spray it with something like Alpet D2 as a sanitizer. Raw chicken is not something I want left on that board. I just rinse my Hinoki veg cutting boards with hot water.

But a cast iron skillet? Are you nuts? That's where I bring out the pitchfork and join the mob.


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## gman (Feb 2, 2019)

Paraffin said:


> Soap is evil, but it depends. I'll spray my rubber HiSoft board with soap and brush it off under the sink after cutting protein. If I was in a pro kitchen I'd spray it with something like Alpet D2 as a sanitizer. Raw chicken is not something I want left on that board. I just rinse my Hinoki veg cutting boards with hot water.
> 
> But a cast iron skillet? Are you nuts? That's where I bring out the pitchfork and join the mob.



i do use a plastic board for chicken, but the wood board gets used for sticky stuff like peanut butter and jam sandwiches, so i wash it with soap about once a week and oil it with mineral oil once a month. have had it a few years now and no sign of drying out or cracking.

as for cast iron, if it's seasoned properly, a little soap and a blue scrubby isn't going to hurt it. been doing this for years without any need to reseason.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 2, 2019)

Paraffin said:


> ...But a cast iron skillet? Are you nuts? That's where I bring out the pitchfork and join the mob.


I have never understood where this thinking comes from. So you're saying if I need to strip the seasoning off cast iron and reseason all I need to do is wash it with soap?! And here I thought I needed to sand it, use oven cleaner or other harsh means to remove the old seasoning.
As a kid I watched my grandmother and mother wash cast iron in the same dishwater the rest of the dishes got washed in after a meal. I've always used soap on my cast iron and it never hurt the seasoning. If cast iron doesn't need to be washed with soap then way use it on anything else?


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## HRC_64 (Feb 2, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> I have never understood where this thinking comes from. So you're saying if I need to strip the seasoning off cast iron and reseason all I need to do is wash it with soap?! And here I thought I needed to sand it, use oven cleaner or other harsh means to remove the old seasoning.
> As a kid I watched my grandmother and mother wash cast iron in the same dishwater the rest of the dishes got washed in after a meal. I've always used soap on my cast iron and it never hurt the seasoning. If cast iron doesn't need to be washed with soap then way use it on anything else?



think of a non-stick (teflon pan). You use a metal fork in it. It ruins the teflon.
nobody is saying a metal fork will "strip" the non-stick teflon.

The pans' non stick dies the same way ...death by a thousand imperfections 
...soap and acid both eat polymerized oil because <science>


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## Paraffin (Feb 2, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> I have never understood where this thinking comes from. So you're saying if I need to strip the seasoning off cast iron and reseason all I need to do is wash it with soap?! And here I thought I needed to sand it, use oven cleaner or other harsh means to remove the old seasoning.
> As a kid I watched my grandmother and mother wash cast iron in the same dishwater the rest of the dishes got washed in after a meal. I've always used soap on my cast iron and it never hurt the seasoning. If cast iron doesn't need to be washed with soap then way use it on anything else?



I think the "rule" about not washing cast iron with soap is more about the early days, weeks, months, of getting a seasoning going on cast iron cookware. Once the seasoning is built up as a layer -- especially with modern Lodge type cast iron where the surface isn't smooth and needs to be "filled in" -- it's probably impervious to soap scrubbing. 

That said, once a good hard seasoning is built up, I've just never found I needed soap to clean the pan. If I haven't cleaned it right away when it's hot and left it for the next morning (yeah, lazy home cook), I just set it on a burner with some water to boil and loosen any crud in the pan. Then it just needs a stiff nylon brush scrub under the faucet's hot water to clean the pan.

Soap is just irrelevant at that point. It's how I clean my DeBuyer carbon steel pans and my carbon steel woks too. Soap doesn't contribute anything to the cleanup, and it's faster if I don't have to make SURE I've got all the soap out of the pan. Hot water alone does the job.


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## Michi (Feb 2, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> The pans' non stick dies the same way ...death by a thousand imperfections
> ...soap and acid both eat polymerized oil because <science>


I bought this one:

https://www.kitchenwarehouse.com.au/Jamie-Oliver-Premium-Stainless-Steel-Frypan-30cm

It's been in daily use for over three years, and shows no signs of wear or the coating giving up. We do treat it carefully though. No metal tools in the pan, only wood and plastic, or silicon-covered tongs.

It's expensive, and heavy. Has good thermal mass though, almost as good as cast iron, I'd say. It means that it takes a while to heat up and, if you want instant temperature change for something, it's the wrong pan. But it's better than my German Fissler stainless steel one, which is just as heavy, but tends to stick. And the Fissler literally cost an arm and a leg way back when I bought it. In today's terms, about $500.


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## madelinez (Feb 3, 2019)

I've got two cast iron pans, I use the bigger one every day and it has a perfectly smooth surface. The following steps have helped improve the finish over the years

1. Wash with a little soap immediately after using. Dry immediately.
2. Add a teaspoon of oil (I use canola) and rub over the entire surface until there's only the thinnest sheen left.
3. Heat pan up until oil reaches smoking point, reduce temperature slightly and leave it for another few minutes.

The only exception I make is when I cook bacon or plain fatty mince, I just leave the solidified fat coat the surface until the next use. I'm not sure if it's in my head but leaving solid bacon fat on it for a day seems to help a lot. Worst thing I've ever done was reduce a soy/lime marinade in it, that took a month to restore the gaps fully.


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## podzap (Feb 3, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> ...soap and acid both eat polymerized oil because <science>



Most people don't understand that cast-iron's seasoning is polymerized oil. Most of the ones who do understand it have no clue how to actually polymerize oil in practice or which oil to use. Out of the ones who do understand how to polymerize oil and which oil to use, most of those don't understand how to keep from inadvertently stripping it off (hello, don't cook tomatoes and lemon in cast-iron).

Prior to the 1970s, grandmas used to know this stuff and passed the knowledge down. The advent of consumer teflon and the breakdown of the nuclear and grand family during the last 40 years in large swaths of western society pretty much turned cast-iron skillets from an everyhome item into something that today some people buy and even fewer of actually know how to use. Amazon has no shortage of negative product reviews from these type of people who think that cast iron should come baby-butt smooth from the factory or be able to withstand being plunged into a sink of cold water straight after coming off the stove. Sigh.


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## Michi (Feb 3, 2019)

podzap said:


> Amazon has no shortage of negative product reviews from these type of people who think that cast iron should come baby-butt smooth from the factory or be able to withstand being plunged into a sink of cold water straight after coming off the stove. Sigh.


From that, I take it that you advise against grinding/sanding a new skillet? I don't want to completely hi-jack this thread, I opened a new one here.

I'm also interested in your thoughts about how to season and which oil to use. Can you elaborate?


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## podzap (Feb 3, 2019)

Michi said:


> From that, I take it that you advise against grinding/sanding a new skillet? I don't want to completely hi-jack this thread, I opened a new one here.
> 
> I'm also interested in your thoughts about how to season and which oil to use. Can you elaborate?



I replied on your other thread.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 22, 2019)

.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 22, 2019)

podzap said:


> Most people don't understand that cast-iron's seasoning is polymerized oil. Most of the ones who do understand it have no clue how to actually polymerize oil in practice or which oil to use. Out of the ones who do understand how to polymerize oil and which oil to use, most of those don't understand how to keep from inadvertently stripping it off (hello, don't cook tomatoes and lemon in cast-iron).
> 
> *Prior to the 1970s, grandmas used to know this stuff and passed the knowledge down. *The advent of consumer teflon and the breakdown of the nuclear and grand family during the last 40 years in large swaths of western society pretty much turned cast-iron skillets from an everyhome item into something that today some people buy and even fewer of actually know how to use. Amazon has no shortage of negative product reviews from these type of people who think that cast iron should come baby-butt smooth from the factory or be able to withstand being plunged into a sink of cold water straight after coming off the stove. Sigh.


My grandmother washed her cast iron in the same dishwater with the rest of the dishes, with soap. She had the slickest cast iron around. Sigh.


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