# Information on "mainstream" high end Japanese brands such as Takeshi Saji and Sakai Takayuki?



## josemartinlopez (Aug 1, 2020)

My understanding is if I go to Kappabashi street in Tokyo (obviously difficult now, but I'd love to take a selfie in Tsubaya sometime this lifetime) and browse the higher end selection of a knife store there, I will likely find "mainstream" high end Japanese brands such as Takeshi Saji and Sakai Takayuki. Solid, very high quality knives with a longstanding following in the domestic market. I just can't find as much information on these in the old threads (or generally in English) -- nothing like the incredible Konosuke Fujiyama thread for sure!

Would anyone have any suggestions on where to find reviews and more information on these brands? These brands would be a great point of reference on the knife journey. I'd also be curious why these get less interest in this forum, though they are readily acknowledged as solid.


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## Moooza (Aug 1, 2020)

Instead of answering directly, take a look at the type of steel used. That should answer so many questions and you'll learn lots about steel and hopefully take you down a rabbit hole. Then, compare price and shape to other makers using the same steels. The comparison will also answer many questions.


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## NO ChoP! (Aug 1, 2020)

Sakai Takayuki brands so much stuff. There are a couple knives that have a good following, like the ginsan. Also, some of the higher ended single bevel stuff. 

Saji is more known for aesthetics. This forum is all about performance. They make a damascus sg2 with an ironwood handle; so does Tanaka, and the Tanaka has a better grind, and a stronger following.

A friend at work has a 240mm Saji ginsan gyuto he spent $330 on, which was a big purchase for him (and he is happy with it). I find it to have zero distal taper, non rounded spine and choil, thin and flat grind- yet chunky behind the edge and at the tip, and a bead blast finish that's impossible to replicate.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 1, 2020)

Moooza said:


> Instead of answering directly, take a look at the type of steel used.


Not asking about their VG-10 lines if that helps?


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 1, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Saji is more known for aesthetics. This forum is all about performance. They make a damascus sg2 with an ironwood handle; so does Tanaka, and the Tanaka has a better grind, and a stronger following.


Any interest in his SRS line?


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## NO ChoP! (Aug 1, 2020)

I don't know anyone who has used that particular steel type, but the knives themselves are similar to any other Saji variants. The aesthetic is awesome, performance is probably passable, but not enough to garner much attention here. But still very nice knives overall. Some like to have that one flashy knife in the kit.


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## Qapla' (Aug 2, 2020)

I've heard some good things about Takeshi Saji's ginsan single-bevel knives, but I can't verify anything myself.

Like the others have already said, Takayuki sells all sorts of j-knives at all sorts of price-levels, so a general statement about them is pretty meaningless.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 2, 2020)

Any specific good thing?


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## Southpaw (Aug 3, 2020)

I’ve been interested in the Saji Blue 2 rainbow Damascus 240 mm wa Gyuto, it has a very me profile to it. Also Japanny (I think) has a VERY rad looking version of it with a yellow handle with black dots urushi wa handle on it. 

Thing is I really have never heard ANYTHING about Saji performance and most of his stuff has weestern handle (and weird ones at that!) that I’m just not into.


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## spaceconvoy (Aug 3, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> My understanding is if I go to Kappabashi street in Tokyo (obviously difficult now, but I'd love to take a selfie in Tsubaya sometime this lifetime) and browse the higher end selection of a knife store there, I will likely find "mainstream" high end Japanese brands such as Takeshi Saji and Sakai Takayuki. Solid, very high quality knives with a longstanding following in the domestic market. I just can't find as much information on these in the old threads (or generally in English) -- nothing like the incredible Konosuke Fujiyama thread for sure!
> 
> Would anyone have any suggestions on where to find reviews and more information on these brands? These brands would be a great point of reference on the knife journey. I'd also be curious why these get less interest in this forum, though they are readily acknowledged as solid.



Why would there be more information on these brands? Based on this and some of your other posts, you seem to have a very peculiar understanding of the world - that it operates to answer any questions you might have. Simply put, there's not much information about certain brands because there's not much excitement about them. People generally buy knives they want, then post about them - no one is crazy enough to meticulously catalog every brand of knife. Not only because people don't work that way, but also because anyone who's dipped even a toe in this hobby realizes that the majority of brands are made by just a handful of OEMs. Try comparing the less-expensive knives on CKTG and JCK: 33-layer damascus VG10, tsuchime vg10, damascus-tsuchime VG10, etc etc...

I don't know where you got the impression that Sakai Takayuki is a high-end brand, or that you would be able to find them in Tokyo  But please, go ahead, take the trip, and report back what you find. As for Takeshi Saji, he seems to have limited appeal outside of Japan. My personal theory is his gaudy style isn't what Westerners picture when they imagine 'Japanese craftsmanship,' but stands out as unique inside of Japan. But you won't get a good answer to "why doesn't more information exist?" other than - because no one was interested in providing it.


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## labor of love (Aug 3, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Not asking about their VG-10 lines if that helps?


What’s your favorite VG10 knife? Do you usually prefer western or wa handles? Where do you like your balance point?


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 3, 2020)

Sakai Takayuki has solid reputation for high end single bevel knives, but this forum is more about gyutos (especially 240 for good reason). Yamawaki Hamono being another example. Suisin wouldn’t draw as much attention if they didn’t make that great honyaki laser gyuto. Masamoto is being talked about mostly for its KS gyuto.
And tbh, Sakai Takayuki’s entry level gyutos remind me of aliexpress knives. Nothing wrong with Yangjiang products, but at that price point ($100-$200), I might choose even a Shun over Sakai Takayuki.

As for Saji, it’s easy to tell from pictures that their knives won’t be performers. I did browser quite a few pictures and videos of Saji as I really like the way some of their series look. I just couldn’t convince myself to pay for something I will never use.


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## spaceconvoy (Aug 3, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Sakai Takayuki has solid reputation for high end single bevel knives ...


That's true - I often forget there are people out there who are into single bevels  Yes, I'm speaking about their double bevel knives. Not as bad as aliexpress, but standard Japanese OEM stuff that's available almost everywhere
Sakai Takayuki
"Harukaze" 
JCK Natures
Togiharu
Ohishi


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 3, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> As for Saji, it’s easy to tell from pictures that their knives won’t be performers.


Why so?


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## labor of love (Aug 3, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Why so?


Why do thick knives cut not as good as thin knives?


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 3, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Why so?


No Chop explained it pretty well. No much distal taper, thick grind, combined with being thick behind the edge. I think some mass produced knives might perform better. Another example is Doi gyuto. As famous as Doi family, the grind of their recent gyutos make me wonder if they know we cut root vegetables with gyutos.


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## M1k3 (Aug 3, 2020)

How's the weather? Are you cutting stuff? Do you have pants or speedo on?


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## soigne_west (Aug 3, 2020)

Have you gone to razorsharp yet? What knife are you using now? Are you right or left handed?


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## juice (Aug 3, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Have you gone to razorsharp yet?


The key question


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 3, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> there's not much information about certain brands because there's not much excitement about them. People generally buy knives they want, then post about them


That’s actually an answer thanks


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## labor of love (Aug 3, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> That’s actually an answer thanks


To which question? So many questions? Which R2 knife did you decide on? Which laser will you try next? You never told me how you like your balance.


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## M1k3 (Aug 3, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> That’s actually an answer thanks


What did you get? Knife guards or sayas? Do you prefer cats or zebras?


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## Moooza (Aug 3, 2020)

Did you do any of your own research? Did you look into R2 steel? Do you understand value for money?

Zebra


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## toddnmd (Aug 4, 2020)

I’d hardly call either of those brands mainstream. I’ve only met one Japanese person who doesn’t think I’m nuts when I talk about the price range of my knives (And she also told me I should go to Niigata sometime to go knife shopping.) And a lot of Japanese people I’ve met have NO IDEA that Japan is famous for its high quality knives! Shocking, isn’t it?


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## parbaked (Aug 4, 2020)

Saji made only hunting knives for years. 
He started making kitchen knives late in life, as he saw business of his Takefu neighbors grow.
That is why his handles and grind are different from knives from the Village.


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## Honerabi (Aug 4, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> Why would there be more information on these brands? Based on this and some of your other posts, you seem to have a very peculiar understanding of the world - that it operates to answer any questions you might have. Simply put, there's not much information about certain brands because there's not much excitement about them. People generally buy knives they want, then post about them - no one is crazy enough to meticulously catalog every brand of knife. Not only because people don't work that way, but also because anyone who's dipped even a toe in this hobby realizes that the majority of brands are made by just a handful of OEMs. Try comparing the less-expensive knives on CKTG and JCK: 33-layer damascus VG10, tsuchime vg10, damascus-tsuchime VG10, etc etc...
> 
> I don't know where you got the impression that Sakai Takayuki is a high-end brand, or that you would be able to find them in Tokyo  But please, go ahead, take the trip, and report back what you find. As for Takeshi Saji, he seems to have limited appeal outside of Japan. My personal theory is his gaudy style isn't what Westerners picture when they imagine 'Japanese craftsmanship,' but stands out as unique inside of Japan. But you won't get a good answer to "why doesn't more information exist?" other than - because no one was interested in providing it.


The last I noticed, the internet (most people's impression of "the world") is based on queries, or questions. Most people search for information on prospective purchases. In the case of these knives, many are sold out. There are more than a "handful" of OEM's, more like dozens. It seems that the high-end knives are eagerly snatched up. I base my selections on the steel type. I'm currently interested in the blue steels. Takeshi Saji works with the No. 2. His knives are available, and the bone-handled colored Damascus gyuto was my first acquisition. It's more of a western-style handle. I'm trying out a Yoshimi Kato super blue gyuto which is the classical japanese gyuto. If you're willing to spend a grand+ on a knife, then that's another category. Are you going to use it, or show it off?


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## Twigg (Aug 4, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> No Chop explained it pretty well. No much distal taper, thick grind, combined with being thick behind the edge. I think some mass produced knives might perform better. Another example is Doi gyuto. As famous as Doi family, the grind of their recent gyutos make me wonder if they know we cut root vegetables with gyutos.


When do you feel this change occurred with Doi gyuto grinds?


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## jacko9 (Aug 4, 2020)




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## Barmoley (Aug 4, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> That’s actually an answer thanks


Do you like convex or flatter grinds?

Which steel do you prefer?

What is your opinion on stainless vs carbon steels?


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 4, 2020)

Twigg said:


> When do you feel this change occurred with Doi gyuto grinds?


I don't know. I haven't been into this long enough to tell.


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## James (Aug 4, 2020)

Owned a Saji R2 before. It has one of the best gyuto profiles imo, but like others before me have said, it lacked distal taper and had a chunky grind


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## Matus (Aug 4, 2020)

You have been starting more than one thread per day since you joined more than a month ago. I think that you might be making @Michi nervous ...


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## juice (Aug 4, 2020)

Matus said:


> You have started more than one thread per day since you joined. I think that you might be making @Michi nervous ...


Lots of community engagement, though!


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## esoo (Aug 4, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> My understanding is if I go to Kappabashi street in Tokyo (obviously difficult now, but I'd love to take a selfie in Tsubaya sometime this lifetime) and browse the higher end selection of a knife store there, I will likely find "mainstream" high end Japanese brands such as Takeshi Saji and Sakai Takayuki. Solid, very high quality knives with a longstanding following in the domestic market. I just can't find as much information on these in the old threads (or generally in English) -- nothing like the incredible Konosuke Fujiyama thread for sure!
> 
> Would anyone have any suggestions on where to find reviews and more information on these brands? These brands would be a great point of reference on the knife journey. I'd also be curious why these get less interest in this forum, though they are readily acknowledged as solid.



Reviews are based on personal opinion, so unless you understand the reviewers bias in knives, the review is meaningless. So to understand a review, you need to have at least tried one knife in common with the reviewer and be able to look a comparison of their review to your experience.

Buy a knife > Read reviews on the knife to understand your preferences against the reviewers > Read reviews done by the same person to understand what the other knife might* be like > buy reviewed knife if you think it'll fit.

If there is a knife you think that is cool that hasn't been reviewed, buy knife, review knife, further the community

* note: as these things are hand-made, the knife you get might be nothing like the knife that was reviewed. this is just part of the hobby.


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## juice (Aug 4, 2020)

I'm tempted to collect all of the good info from these threads and collate them all in new thread


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## soigne_west (Aug 4, 2020)




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## josemartinlopez (Aug 4, 2020)

toddnmd said:


> I’d hardly call either of those brands mainstream.


“mainstream” in the sense that even the Burrfection store has Sakai Takayuki, not in the sense of normal people who wouldn’t believe that not only do $1,000 exist but that there is actually an Internet forum dedicated to discussing them.


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## Colin (Aug 4, 2020)

Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef


Hi all. anyone here familiar with the gyuto knifes of the Sakai Takayuki grand chef line. Or know if the Böhler-Uddelholm AEB-L-steel Is any good? Is it less chippy then vg10 steel? also.. the Sakai Takayuki brand is pretty much unknown here in Denmark. How is the brand when it comes to...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





According to other forums, Sakai Takayuki is a good knife. Some like them more than others, some like it less than others. I have no experience with the brand myself.

You would have to buy it and test it to really get a good picture of whether or not it is right for you.


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## ma_sha1 (Aug 4, 2020)

Saji kitchen knife looks cool, I was intrigued when I was a noob. Luckily, I found a few user reviews, & they were baaaaad, which helped me to stay away.

I don’t think it’s main stream either, sure they are everywhere but I don’t see a whole lot of buyers/users, of those few who did buy, they appear to hate it.


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## daveb (Aug 4, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> “mainstream” in the sense that even the Burrfection store has Sakai Takayuki ....



Prolly good to not cite Burrrrrrr when telling us we're wrong.


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## juice (Aug 4, 2020)

daveb said:


> Prolly good to not cite Burrrrrrr when telling us we're wrong.


TBF, it's on-brand...


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 4, 2020)

daveb said:


> Prolly good to not cite Burrrrrrr when telling us we're wrong.


Sorry, sorry, I thought that would be an acceptable form of swearing here that is not caught by the filter. (I swear this guy is like Voldemort.)


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## daveb (Aug 4, 2020)

Is that a question?


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## Twigg (Aug 4, 2020)

***?


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 4, 2020)

No, and I thought it has to be a new thread.


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## juice (Aug 4, 2020)

daveb said:


> Is that a question?


And if so, why isn't a new thread? Dave needs two more.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 4, 2020)

I was thinking hard about a question on boards but I'm good. A friend gave me a 3 cm thick hinoki board and I honestly wonder why more people here don't use boards like that. I felt like I hadn't truly lived life until I used that board.


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## juice (Aug 4, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I was thinking hard about a question on boards but I'm good.


A suggestion, then: why not think hard about the numerous knife questions in your plethora of threads and answer them? You know, just as an idea. As opposed to just posting about inconsequential crap.

Or think hard about going to the knife shop and trying some knives, and then actually doing it?


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 4, 2020)

But boards are extremely important.


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## daveb (Aug 4, 2020)

At least threadworthy.


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## soigne_west (Aug 4, 2020)

Start one. I don’t think there’s ever been a hinoki thread...


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 4, 2020)

I already did.


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## Colin (Aug 4, 2020)

We have all tried to answered the question here that you asked, what more do you need from this thread?


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## juice (Aug 4, 2020)

Colin said:


> We have all tried to answered the question here that you asked, what more do you need from this thread?


The attention


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## Twigg (Aug 4, 2020)

Lingering Troll... a weird type of troll?


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## M1k3 (Aug 4, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I was thinking hard about a question on boards but I'm good. A friend gave me a 3 cm thick hinoki board and I honestly wonder why more people here don't use boards like that. I felt like I hadn't truly lived life until I used that board.


Have you tried cutting anything on the board? Do you ignore responses to your inquiries that end with a question mark?! What do you like about the board that we are missing out on?


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## Moooza (Aug 5, 2020)

Is it end grain? If it's not, then time to do more research - start with the search in the top right.


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## errickkr (Aug 5, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> My understanding is if I go to Kappabashi street in Tokyo (obviously difficult now, but I'd love to take a selfie in Tsubaya sometime this lifetime) and browse the higher end selection of a knife store there, I will likely find "mainstream" high end Japanese brands such as Takeshi Saji and Sakai Takayuki. Solid, very high quality knives with a longstanding following in the domestic market. I just can't find as much information on these in the old threads (or generally in English) -- nothing like the incredible Konosuke Fujiyama thread for sure!
> 
> Would anyone have any suggestions on where to find reviews and more information on these brands? These brands would be a great point of reference on the knife journey. I'd also be curious why these get less interest in this forum, though they are readily acknowledged as solid.



just bought one (aus10 wa gyuto 210mm) out of noob impulsiveness... haven't use it yet 
early impression: feels a bit heavy (i expect it to be lighter as it's wa handled), ootb sharpness is good, grind is ok, the finishing need a bit of improvement (some glue drip in the handle)


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## coffeelover191919 (Aug 5, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> My understanding is if I go to Kappabashi street in Tokyo (obviously difficult now, but I'd love to take a selfie in Tsubaya sometime this lifetime) and browse the higher end selection of a knife store there, I will likely find "mainstream" high end Japanese brands such as Takeshi Saji and Sakai Takayuki. Solid, very high quality knives with a longstanding following in the domestic market. I just can't find as much information on these in the old threads (or generally in English) -- nothing like the incredible Konosuke Fujiyama thread for sure!
> 
> Would anyone have any suggestions on where to find reviews and more information on these brands? These brands would be a great point of reference on the knife journey. I'd also be curious why these get less interest in this forum, though they are readily acknowledged as solid.


I was in Tsubaya at kappabashi st (Actually bumped into and said hi to Burrfection there) Unless you speak japanese, don't expect much of a conversation there. The locals don't speak much english. At most they'd tell you what type of knife, what % grind, what steel is used. 
But lots of knives to look at and touch though. Lots of tourists too... 

I had a good time shopping at Masamoto Sohonten (only 1 other client in there) and received all the attention i needed and they had the SW 240 Gyuto in stock there which i bought with a Saya. Again, they don't speak much english at all. We communicated via cell phones with google translate. Worked well.

The people at the Tsukiji fish market spoke to the most english. But they're closed and moved now (never been to the new one / know if open) Cousin bought a Tsukiji Masamoto 210 Gyuto there. They'll perform finishing sharpening for you and give you the tax refund on the spot.


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## labor of love (Aug 5, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I already did.


I hope you find the answers you’re looking for.


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