# Sharpening help!



## shauk (Jan 17, 2022)

Hi KKFers,

I've come to a 'bottleneck' in my sharpening skills, I am currently equipped with Suehiro 1k/6k Combi stone & JCK 6k/10k Combi stone (splash & go) and a fine leather strop from KnS.

I am able to get my Sukenari SG2 & my JCK Shiki VG10 sharp enough slice news paper pretty clean, but I am aiming to get it to hair popping sharp.

My current method of sharpening is to start with the Suehiro 1k and raise a burr one side then flip to the other side and raise a burr again then moving to the suehiro 6k side.

I then finish on the JCK 10k side with light stroke (no burr as I often gouge into the stone) by doing edge trailing stroke alternating between the left side and right side of the blade (light stroke).

last but not least i strop them on fine leather without any compound.

I have no issues with cutting tomato skin or capsicum but I really want to get my knives to hair popping sharp, while i can get my knives sharp enough to slice newspaper almost cleanly I feel that I am stuck at this skill level and would like to see if I can get any tips or pointers to improve my sharpening game.

I guess my question today is :

Am I doing anything wrong ?
Do I need to get some green compound to get my knives hair popping sharp?
Do you guys raise a burr on high grit stone ? 

Thanks guys!


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## JDC (Jan 17, 2022)

In general, it's very challenging to get VG10 to hair popping (HHT3+), not to say SG2. Probably you should start with white or blue steel so that you know it's achievable if you did everything right (without too much effort).

That said, I did achieve HHT4 on SG2, using a progression of synthetic stones (sp 1000, sp 2000, synthetic renge suita 5000, shapton hc 6000), then Nakayama Kiita, and then stropping on horsehide.

Without the nakayama, I'd strop with sub-micron diamond paste, and it should be just fine for popping hair.

As for sharpening techniques, aside from burr raising and removal, I do an extra step at the end of each stone session, which is "jointing." This is a subtle skill and require some practice, so beware. Basically, you just draw the edge across the stone once or twice lightly, then sharpen both sides for a few strokes, feel the edge with you fingers to see if its scary sharp, if so, move to the next stone. 

Usually I don't need to do this with carbon steels, at least not at the end of every stone, but for SG2 I feel this is necessary.


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## kayman67 (Jan 17, 2022)

Million billion variables at play. 

High grit stones are very difficult to use right. Don't worry, most people don't do it either. You could settle for a lower grit. This as the hair popping is not directly related to high grits anyway. 

The fact that you cut into the stone is a sign of pressure and consistency problems. Deal with them first. That is not a sign of clean apex. 

Proper deburr before moving to a higher grit. You might just be cutting tomatos with some residual burrs or/and some jagged structures. 

Don't strop with force. If you want compound, try some diamond. It's way easier to handle, works with everything.


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## shauk (Jan 17, 2022)

JDC said:


> In general, it's very challenging to get VG10 to hair popping (HHT3+), not to say SG2. Probably you should start with white or blue steel so that you know it's achievable if you did everything right (without too much effort).
> 
> That said, I did achieve HHT4 on SG2, using a progression of synthetic stones (sp 1000, sp 2000, synthetic renge suita 5000, shapton hc 6000), then Nakayama Kiita, and then stropping on horsehide.
> 
> ...



I've only got the SG2 after using the Shiki for a couple of years as I felt that my sharpening skills is good enough to warrant for a better knive... but I got to say I was today years old to know that it's very challenging to get VG10 to hair popping sharp!! 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

could you elaborate more on 'jointing' ? I've attached a video 5 min mark I see Chef Eduaro doing something I've not seen before.

Also what define as scarry sharp ? most of the time I can feel har sharp my knives are but not razor sharp( still sharp enough to share arm hair)

I've avoided Carbon steel as I feel that is quite a lot of work to be wiping your knife every time you cut stuff and is a pain to keep washing a towel every other day.

Would it be fair to say that it is more difficult to achieve hair poping sharp with stainless compared to carbon steel ?


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## shauk (Jan 17, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> Million billion variables at play.
> 
> High grit stones are very difficult to use right. Don't worry, most people don't do it either. You could settle for a lower grit. This as the hair popping is not directly related to high grits anyway.
> 
> ...



Yeah I noticed that as well since then I've use significantly less force and forcused on my technique and have not gouge my stone since i've adjusted my technique.

These these i mainly use my JCK 10k stone with very light but consistent passes till a see a hair line width polish and leather strop to finish up.

So should I deburr and strop when i am moving in between stone ? would this improve my sharpening?


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## JDC (Jan 17, 2022)

shauk said:


> I've only got the SG2 after using the Shiki for a couple of years as I felt that my sharpening skills is good enough to warrant for a better knive... but I got to say I was today years old to know that it's very challenging to get VG10 to hair popping sharp!!
> 
> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
> 
> ...



That's a super light jointing. IDK if it actually worked or not, mine is much more brutal. 
Some semi-stainless can be as good as carbon I think, but I've never come across a stainless that's as easy.


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## ian (Jan 17, 2022)

shauk said:


> I've attached a video 5 min mark I see Chef Eduaro doing something I've not seen before.



He's crushing the burr slightly. I guess this weakens it and maybe might make it balloon out to the sides, making it easier to contact with the subsequent deburring strokes. What JDC is describing is kind of similar, but he's probably removing burr with that stroke, as well as other steel, perhaps, but he then sharpens it again before moving up.


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## kayman67 (Jan 17, 2022)

shauk said:


> Yeah I noticed that as well since then I've use significantly less force and forcused on my technique and have not gouge my stone since i've adjusted my technique.
> 
> These these i mainly use my JCK 10k stone with very light but consistent passes till a see a hair line width polish and leather strop to finish up.
> 
> So should I deburr and strop when i am moving in between stone ? would this improve my sharpening?



There's a technique where people deburr between stones by stropping on felt, rough leather or some other surfaces, with great success. 
The idea is not to bring the burr with you to a higher grit. 
This can also be accomplished in various ways using the stone before you move on to the next step.


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## JDC (Jan 17, 2022)

Yes I guess my "jointing" strokes remove both the burr and any fragile steel at the edge.


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## Delat (Jan 17, 2022)

Using more than one stone as a novice doesn’t always result in an improvement and can sometimes give you a worse result due to inconsistent angles as you swap stones. You might try using a single in-between stone in the 2-4k range and just focus on getting the results you want there. I suspect you might just be rounding your apex on the 10k, never mind the 6k.

Some guys on this forum can get hair-splitting edges off 500 grit stones, so while higher grit stones certainly help they’re not always the solution to an underlying issue of either angle control or deburring. I didn’t see you mention how you deburr, and that’s also important.

Also general wisdom says 10k (or even 6k) doesn’t do much for high alloy steels like VG10 and SG2. I get great results stopping at 4k with everything, including my SG2 blades.


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## Benuser (Jan 17, 2022)

Make sure you can't reduce the burr any further before going the next stone. VG-10 and SG2 are no simple carbons where you may expect the burr to simply fall off at some moment. The burr has to get abraded, as lightly as possible, so it really gets abraded and does not just flip. In that respect a jump from 1k to 6k is probably a bit large for a relative novice. If possible, I would add a stone in between, say a 2k, perhaps just for a few edge leading strokes and deburring by longitudinal strokes. I guess those are the same as what others call jointing.


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## Benuser (Jan 17, 2022)

Sorry, @JDC, I should have mentioned you. Jointing was your term, I now realise.


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## JDC (Jan 17, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Sorry, @JDC, I should have mentioned you. Jointing was your term, I now realise.


No worries! Actually I learned the term somewhere else in the straight razor community.


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## shauk (Jan 17, 2022)

Delat said:


> Using more than one stone as a novice doesn’t always result in an improvement and can sometimes give you a worse result due to inconsistent angles as you swap stones. You might try using a single in-between stone in the 2-4k range and just focus on getting the results you want there. I suspect you might just be rounding your apex on the 10k, never mind the 6k.
> 
> Some guys on this forum can get hair-splitting edges off 500 grit stones, so while higher grit stones certainly help they’re not always the solution to an underlying issue of either angle control or deburring. I didn’t see you mention how you deburr, and that’s also important.
> 
> Also general wisdom says 10k (or even 6k) doesn’t do much for high alloy steels like VG10 and SG2. I get great results stopping at 4k with everything, including my SG2 blades.



Sorry guys I shoudl've mention I run the knives through old wine cork like after learning from Jon from KNI , I will give the jointing technique a go and try some edge leading stone on my stone's moving forward.

you guys just gave me a reason to buy a White # 2/1 knive haha


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## kayman67 (Jan 17, 2022)

Good Scientific Resource?


Pretty new to the forums and first post on the sharpening board so hello everyone! I've been sharpening for a few years now and I can often get an arm hair shaving edge on my good knives freehand but have struggled getting shaving edges on anything from Germany. Also perfect consistency is not...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









Aus8 burrs


I recently bought a Sakai Takayuki Aus8 santoku with the intention of thinning it and using it as an entry level loaner knife. Today I finally got around to thinning it. I'm kicking myself that I forgot to take pics. It was quite assymetric, with a much wider bevel on the right blade face...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com




You could give these a read.


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## KingShapton (Jan 18, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> There's a technique where people deburr between stones by stropping on felt, rough leather or some other surfaces, with great success.
> The idea is not to bring the burr with you to a higher grit.
> This can also be accomplished in various ways using the stone before you move on to the next step.


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## Bobby2shots (Jan 18, 2022)

JDC said:


> *As for sharpening techniques, aside from burr raising and removal, I do an extra step at the end of each stone session, which is "jointing." This is a subtle skill and require some practice, so beware. Basically, you just draw the edge across the stone once or twice lightly, then sharpen both sides for a few strokes, feel the edge with you fingers to see if its scary sharp, if so, move to the next stone.*
> 
> Usually I don't need to do this with carbon steels, at least not at the end of every stone, but for SG2 I feel this is necessary.



Yep, I do that too from time to time,,, basically, it's what Cliff Stamp (R.I.P.) called his "Plateau method). Stephan Wolf (R.I.P.) also used this technique.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Jan 18, 2022)

Bobby2shots said:


> Yep, I do that too from time to time,,, basically, it's what Cliff Stamp (R.I.P.) called his "Plateau method). Stephan Wolf (R.I.P.) also used this technique.


It sounds deadly.


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## Bobby2shots (Jan 18, 2022)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> It sounds deadly.



I'm lookin' over my shoulder.


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## JDC (Jan 18, 2022)

I've watched some sharpening videos by Cliff Stamp. I'm really in shock. The world lost a highly gifted person, RIP.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 18, 2022)

I would honestly not go all the way up to 10k on sg2, probably not on vg10 either. 6k is more than fine enough. That said. If you aren't able to get good results with just the 1k, then the higher grit stones wont matter.

Also. Think about adding leather for deburring, if you dont already. I like to use compound, or diamond spray on mine. Tbh it just makes getting rid of burrs less tedious.


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## Benuser (Jan 19, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> There's a technique where people deburr between stones by stropping on felt, rough leather or some other surfaces, with great success.
> The idea is not to bring the burr with you to a higher grit.
> This can also be accomplished in various ways using the stone before you move on to the next step.


Agree about deburring between the stones. Stropping on leather may weaken a carbon steel burr, not so much with VG-10 and SG2 though, I'm afraid. I rather use very light longitudinal strokes on the stone, and only go to the next stone when the burr only flips without getting any smaller.
Rough leather can be used to push all debris to the other side, and deburr that one. I do the same with the palm of my hand.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 19, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Agree about deburring between the stones. Stropping on leather may weaken a carbon steel burr, not so much with VG-10 and SG2 though, I'm afraid. I rather use very light longitudinal strokes on the stone, and only go to the next stone when the burr only flips without getting any smaller.
> Rough leather can be used to push all debris to the other side, and deburr that one. I do the same with the palm of my hand.


I've had good luck deburring with leather that has 1 micron diamond spray on it .


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## kayman67 (Jan 19, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Agree about deburring between the stones. Stropping on leather may weaken a carbon steel burr, not so much with VG-10 and SG2 though, I'm afraid. I rather use very light longitudinal strokes on the stone, and only go to the next stone when the burr only flips without getting any smaller.
> Rough leather can be used to push all debris to the other side, and deburr that one. I do the same with the palm of my hand.



I usually encourage picking surfaces (with abrasives if necessary) based on the most demanding alloy present.


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## shauk (Jan 23, 2022)

Hi All,

I am still having difficulties removing the burr, over the week I've focused on technique based on the resources you guys have sent through, but I am still having difficulties getting the knives to hair whittling sharp.

I'll talk you guys through my process in hopes that you guys can give me some additional pointers to help me improve my sharpening game.

So I've gone back to my suehiro cerax 1k stone and I get a small burr on one side then flip to the other side and get another small burr all along the edge. 

This is where I am struggling, I think my issues lies with burr removal, I've tried the burr removal method on Jon Broida's video using the 'J' technique, running the knife through a cork and Kippington's method, yet I still can't get the knife any sharper than what it already is.

I mean the knife is sharp, it cuts through everything in the kitchen clean.... just not hair whittling sharp.

I had some Koyo Green rogue that came through the mail today and I crayoned it in into my leather strop, this has further refined the sharpness ( best way to describe it is while slicing through news paper it cuts more a little cleanly and does not tear compared to stropping without compound, not that it was tearing to begin with).

All in all I find Kippington's method leaving my edge with more tear compared to Jon's 'j' stropping method, is there any times you guys can give to help me improve my sharpening to the next level ?


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## M1k3 (Jan 23, 2022)




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## jwthaparc (Jan 23, 2022)

Yeah edge leading very light strokes is how I do my burr removal. Then I follow that with going on to either 1 micron diamond spray, or green compound. Then I follow up with .5 micron diamond spray, or plain leather. 

Sometimes I only strop with one of those, but if I want to go the extra mile I do that short stropping progression. 

I've heard others speak of rounding edges, and similar problems because of over stropping. I have personally never experienced that though. I think it's because they are using to high of an angle.


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## shauk (Jan 23, 2022)

I strop with the same angle that I sharpen probably 3-5 times per side, I'll try and master my burr removal first I think once I've perfected my burr removal the stropping part should compliment my sharpening very well . 

I think I have enough resource to practice for 2 years, back to the beater VG 10 I go!


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## ian (Jan 23, 2022)

Nowadays I've been doing edge leading for most of the burr removal, then light edge trailing strokes at the end, followed by a bit of stropping on chromium oxide (just since that's what I have) or cardboard, then stropping on a kitchen towel. For the kitchen towel, I have one end secured in a vise and I hold the other end taut while I strop. Feel like it does something.


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## Pie (Jan 23, 2022)

shauk said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am still having difficulties removing the burr, over the week I've focused on technique based on the resources you guys have sent through, but I am still having difficulties getting the knives to hair whittling sharp.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind hair whittling sharp isn’t easy straight off the stone. If that’s the goal tho, stropping most definitely gets you much closer. 

Edge leading deburring is very effective, as mentioned, and helps to get cleaner apexes with good technique. This does take some time and repetition to figure out and do well tho. Eventually a feel for it develops. 


Then strop the hell out of it, compound then clean leather.


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## Nemo (Jan 23, 2022)

shauk said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am still having difficulties removing the burr, over the week I've focused on technique based on the resources you guys have sent through, but I am still having difficulties getting the knives to hair whittling sharp.
> 
> ...


This recent thread on burrs may help?

Edit: I forgot to post the link:





__





I am a little bit confused about burrs


I’ve been practicing my sharpening for the past seven or eight months. I’m making progress slowly but surely, but of course with each bit of progress comes the realization that there are more details that you are overlooking. Here is how I have been dealing with burr formation and what I am...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Can you describe what you mean by "more tear" with the KDM?


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## ModRQC (Jan 24, 2022)

ian said:


> Nowadays I've been doing edge leading for most of the burr removal, then light edge trailing strokes at the end, followed by a bit of stropping on chromium oxide (just since that's what I have) or cardboard, then stropping on a kitchen towel. For the kitchen towel, I have one end secured in a vise and I hold the other end taut while I strop. Feel like it does something.



Remembering of @stringer advice. I really need to try this.

I vouch by the jointing. Which to me amounts to master longitudinal trail/lead single motion. Which highest chance of failure results from too much weight applied at any point, and sure won't support any angle inconstency without showing. And which could mean nothing. Quite a struggle to get there still. Sincerely, I've been avoiding any kind of stropping more and more as I got my hands and MM around this. Might go back to the finish stone a fair few times to get where I want. Will strop some SS. From a no man's land of getting to just a good edge and plateauing for a long while, I've been steadily improving on this. 

But for this to work can't say enough praise of first deburring right, and how much edge leading motions ensure this. Another struggle that is - my former plateau had to be entirely breached by correct edge leading to even better edges without jointing. Then I messed up some of the advancement trying to do final jointing. And then muddied some gained refinement by stropping what didn't needed to be. Or I guess that now my stropping would need to be refined, IDK.

Latest struggle was Sukenari HAP-40. Required adjustments with stone progression AND some amount of final stropping. Probably some of it is illusory, but first time with conventional ideas in mind was rather of a failure. VG-10 and SG2 are easier dealt with - they mostly require the utmost attention to deburring and to a progression that ensures as much with as little pain as possible. Phantom burrs are a plague to any SS for that matter, but now imagine it on a steel hard enough and resilient enough to just laugh at most waterstones.

For tests I do cut paper and shave some hair but only thing I now care about is final performance on board over a few preps. There seems to be no test properly amounting to that, only a few guiding lights that it's time to go there and see. No steels are exactly the same even when the same neither. Been paying more and more attention to what kind of edge suits the knife on a long run with a given geometry and steel and within my use. Can't do what I do to a TF Mabs with any other White steel I tried - I'll never get any phrasing of "Mabs" and "chippy" to ever make sense to me.

Saying all this thinking I'm an inferior sharpener to any advice given above. But as advice comes: learn to deburr, pay particular heed to heel and tip, learn to deburr and pay particular heed to heel and tip. Deburring is one thing and then deburring is always another. Most edges about right cut most kind of paper. Good edges can shave. Hair popping is difficult but mostly a matter of deburring. Cut paper towel all you want with a fresh edge. I want an edge to catch regular printer paper and still cut it seamlessly. This is a particular feeling, and particularly winning one. I want the sound to reciprocate the grits perfecly. I want to test the whole of the edge in purely push cutting holding only one point of any paper with one hand. I'll entirely shred one to two full sheets of them testing so. I won't shave anything everytime I sharpen a knife nor waste a fresh paper towel. I do not always get what I want but learned to recognize edges that will endure board time beautifully - far from cutting paper involved into this. Yet printer paper tells a lot, prefer it to newspaper for feedback. Receipt paper for testing a final edge. Also give a lot of feedback. Especially 24 hours after with some steels. Board use - I do not always get what I want.


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## big_adventure (Jan 24, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Remembering of @stringer advice. I really need to try this.
> 
> I vouch by the jointing. Which to me amounts to master longitudinal trail/lead single motion. Which highest chance of failure results from too much weight applied at any point, and sure won't support any angle inconstency without showing. And which could mean nothing. Quite a struggle to get there still. Sincerely, I've been avoiding any kind of stropping more and more as I got my hands and MM around this. Might go back to the finish stone a fair few times to get where I want. Will strop some SS. From a no man's land of getting to just a good edge and plateauing for a long while, I've been steadily improving on this.
> 
> ...



tl;dr : Own your own recycling plant to perform all of these tests.


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## shauk (Jan 24, 2022)

ian said:


> Nowadays I've been doing edge leading for most of the burr removal, then light edge trailing strokes at the end, followed by a bit of stropping on chromium oxide (just since that's what I have) or cardboard, then stropping on a kitchen towel. For the kitchen towel, I have one end secured in a vise and I hold the other end taut while I strop. Feel like it does something.



I've given it some thought, I'll be trying edge trailing sharpening stroke, followed by edge leading deburring stroke and finish up with edge trailing strop to clean up the edge a little.

Will throw in an update hopefully by the end of the week, the wife thinks I am nuts by now hahaha.


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## shauk (Jan 24, 2022)

Pie said:


> Keep in mind hair whittling sharp isn’t easy straight off the stone. If that’s the goal tho, stropping most definitely gets you much closer.
> 
> Edge leading deburring is very effective, as mentioned, and helps to get cleaner apexes with good technique. This does take some time and repetition to figure out and do well tho. Eventually a feel for it develops.
> 
> ...



I feel like stropping with compound compensate and brings my edge a little closer to my target, for example I can get my VG-10 sharp enough to shave arm hair and cut everything cleanly in the kitchen... just not hair whittling sharp.

With strop (no compound) it cleans and refines my edge and brings it 5% sharper than what it already is... and with compound maybe 10-15% ? 

If 100% sharpness is hair whittling sharp for me I'd say I am sitting around 85-90 with compound stropping. 

I should also point out that when I am doing edge leading deburring stroke I sometimes run the knife lightly into stone (cerax 1k) and having to redo the whole process again, I think my deburring stroke's angle is a little too high so more practice is needed there.

Hopefully I am able to achieve perfection in my technique and move on to my fancier knive (SG2)  .


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## Nemo (Jan 24, 2022)

shauk said:


> I've given it some thought, I'll be trying edge trailing sharpening stroke, followed by edge leading deburring stroke and finish up with edge trailing strop to clean up the edge a little.
> 
> Will throw in an update hopefully by the end of the week, the wife thinks I am nuts by now hahaha.


This will make a decent edge if you do it right. I did something similar for a long time (I also did a longitudinal deburring stroke on each side followed by gentle dragging through cork before stropping on diamond loaded balsa).

The next step after that for me was learning to minimise the burr by abrading it with ever gentler levels of pressure. And wow, what a difference that made! Especially on stainless steels.


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## shauk (Jan 24, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> For tests I do cut paper and shave some hair but only thing I now care about is final performance on board over a few preps. There seems to be no test properly amounting to that, only a few guiding lights that it's time to go there and see. No steels are exactly the same even when the same neither. Been paying more and more attention to what kind of edge suits the knife on a long run with a given geometry and steel and within my use. Can't do what I do to a TF Mabs with any other White steel I tried - I'll never get any phrasing of "Mabs" and "chippy" to ever make sense to me.
> 
> Saying all this thinking I'm an inferior sharpener to any advice given above. But as advice comes: learn to deburr, pay particular heed to heel and tip, learn to deburr and pay particular heed to heel and tip. Deburring is one thing and then deburring is always another. Most edges about right cut most kind of paper. Good edges can shave. Hair popping is difficult but mostly a matter of deburring. Cut paper towel all you want with a fresh edge. I want an edge to catch regular printer paper and still cut it seamlessly. This is a particular feeling, and particularly winning one. I want the sound to reciprocate the grits perfecly. I want to test the whole of the edge in purely push cutting holding only one point of any paper with one hand. I'll entirely shred one to two full sheets of them testing so. I won't shave anything everytime I sharpen a knife nor waste a fresh paper towel. I do not always get what I want but learned to recognize edges that will endure board time beautifully - far from cutting paper involved into this. Yet printer paper tells a lot, prefer it to newspaper for feedback. Receipt paper for testing a final edge. Also give a lot of feedback. Especially 24 hours after with some steels. Board use - I do not always get what I want.




This is what my wife said as well, she's been using the knives and have noticed that my sharpening have gotten 'significantly' better. While our knives are really sharp, she's mentioned that she find the sharpness a 'level' higher than before ( I attribute this to the stropping then stropping with compound). Then again it has now come to a point where she cannot differentiate the 'sharpness' anymore cause I am sharpening the knife every other day (when my stones have dried I re-wet them and have a crack at it).


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## Nemo (Jan 24, 2022)

shauk said:


> This is what my wife said as well, she's been using the knives and have noticed that my sharpening have gotten 'significantly' better. While our knives are really sharp, she's mentioned that she find the sharpness a 'level' higher than before ( I attribute this to the stropping then stropping with compound). Then again it has now come to a point where she cannot differentiate the 'sharpness' anymore cause I am sharpening the knife every other day (when my stones have dried I re-wet them and have a crack at it).


Wow, are you sharpening several times per week because the knife needs it or just to get practice?


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## Kawa (Jan 24, 2022)

Don't forget knife sharpening isnt something you pick of youtube alone.
You have to practise, make hours.

It's easy to learn, hard to master.

My suggestion is you pick a new variable/method and try that _for a while_. Doing 4-5 different deburring methods in a short while, or even on the same day, does't make you good at one.

I think patience and practise are keywords here.


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## Pie (Jan 24, 2022)

shauk said:


> I feel like stropping with compound compensate and brings my edge a little closer to my target, for example I can get my VG-10 sharp enough to shave arm hair and cut everything cleanly in the kitchen... just not hair whittling sharp.
> 
> With strop (no compound) it cleans and refines my edge and brings it 5% sharper than what it already is... and with compound maybe 10-15% ?
> 
> ...


I’d say your percentages are about right. You get those last bits of sharpness from stropping. But that does tell me about how clean your (and mine as well) edges are. Technique could stand to be better, as it’s possible to get to hair whittling with little or no stropping. 

At the end of it, practice is really all we can do - which you seem to have no issue with . Keep at it, you’ll have a series of “ah ha” moments, and eventually reach your goal. All the best!


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## Delat (Jan 24, 2022)

shauk said:


> This is what my wife said as well, she's been using the knives and have noticed that my sharpening have gotten 'significantly' better. While our knives are really sharp, she's mentioned that she find the sharpness a 'level' higher than before ( I attribute this to the stropping then stropping with compound). Then again it has now come to a point where she cannot differentiate the 'sharpness' anymore cause I am sharpening the knife every other day (when my stones have dried I re-wet them and have a crack at it).



If you’ve been sharpening the same knife every other day for a while, then it’s probably due for a thinning.

What do you mean by “hair whittling” sharp, exactly? If you’re referring to the hanging hair test where you basically cut a hair by tapping it against the blade, or pulling it one-handed (i.e. no pressure) across the blade, then VG10 may not be capable of getting there.

I’ve only ever gotten carbon steels to that level, but maybe more experienced sharpeners than me could do it with stainless. I personally don’t find that level of sharpness distinguishable in the kitchen, and consider it just a sharpening flex - definitely a good flex though.


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## ian (Jan 24, 2022)

I always thought "hair whittling" was when you could slice a bit off the side of a piece of hair, not cut it in half. Like what you do when you're whittling.

Good luck with that.


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## ModRQC (Jan 24, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> tl;dr : Own your own recycling plant to perform all of these tests.



Paper used is going to the recycle bin anyhow. At a couple of sheets a couple times a week at worse, or a month at times, there's more than that just going there without getting cut. Can't reuse old paper towel to cut it can you? So that's a waste to me. Shaving is all well but... testing the whole length of the blade? That's a forearm fully shaved before long. Receipt paper, get a "roll" of that every grocery. Going to recycling anyhow. So yeah, printer paper, newspaper, receipt paper, if one uses any of them long enough, they start to reveal a lot, and there's always some under hand going to waste anyhow. I prefer newspaper for stropping. 

I'm not entirely sure what you're aiming at there. You need to test that edge at some point, and going to cut food already is all well, but what if I don't need to right now, or what if I discover something I wasn't aware of? I sharpen on the kitchen counter, so yeah the station is all wrapped up and away if I'm cutting food. Bit late and untidy to get it all out again in mid prep. Not like I'm cutting paper for days satisfied with myself.


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## shauk (Jan 24, 2022)

Nemo said:


> Wow, are you sharpening several times per week because the knife needs it or just to get practice?




For practice! 



Kawa said:


> Don't forget knife sharpening isnt something you pick of youtube alone.
> You have to practise, make hours.
> 
> It's easy to learn, hard to master.
> ...




Yeah I know is a patience and practise thing I'll keep working on it.



Delat said:


> If you’ve been sharpening the same knife every other day for a while, then it’s probably due for a thinning.
> 
> What do you mean by “hair whittling” sharp, exactly? If you’re referring to the hanging hair test where you basically cut a hair by tapping it against the blade, or pulling it one-handed (i.e. no pressure) across the blade, then VG10 may not be capable of getting there.
> 
> I’ve only ever gotten carbon steels to that level, but maybe more experienced sharpeners than me could do it with stainless. I personally don’t find that level of sharpness distinguishable in the kitchen, and consider it just a sharpening flex - definitely a good flex though.




I doing think I've ground that much steel away yet, but I know at some point I'll need to be thinning my knives. I meant the hanging hair test pulling it across the blade one handed to get it to cut ! Yeah I've learned that earlier on this thread you can't get VG-10 that sharp but I'd like to perfect my skill and get a white steel to see how good my sharpening is.



ModRQC said:


> Paper used is going to the recycle bin anyhow. At a couple of sheets a couple times a week at worse, or a month at times, there's more than that just going there without getting cut. Can't reuse old paper towel to cut it can you? So that's a waste to me. Shaving is all well but... testing the whole length of the blade? That's a forearm fully shaved before long. Receipt paper, get a "roll" of that every grocery. Going to recycling anyhow. So yeah, printer paper, newspaper, receipt paper, if one uses any of them long enough, they start to reveal a lot, and there's always some under hand going to waste anyhow. I prefer newspaper for stropping.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure what you're aiming at there. You need to test that edge at some point, and going to cut food already is all well, but what if I don't need to right now, or what if I discover something I wasn't aware of? I sharpen on the kitchen counter, so yeah the station is all wrapped up and away if I'm cutting food. Bit late and untidy to get it all out again in mid prep. Not like I'm cutting paper for days satisfied with myself.




Yellow pages will last you a VERY LONG TIME !!


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## ModRQC (Jan 24, 2022)

I've not been getting yellow pages or any type of such biblically good and readily disposable "sharpener's paper" in Canada in a long while. That era pretty much ended in the early 2000 around here. We barely get a paper letter anymore but from official government business. I've not seen a telephone book or yellow pages in decenies. 

However I work in an appliances store. We'll throw some amount of printer paper into recycling as a very basic operational thing every day. I just need to bring home the last month's promo guidance list two times a year and I'm settled with printer paper. For receipt paper, well as I said, grocery once a week I get quite enough of it. 

I don't even have a printer or printer paper at home. Those times are long gone too... and being an IT at loose times for my store as well as sidelines, printers are possibly the most useless, most hated machines on my list of many. When I see a printer I'm basically looking at a pile of virgin CD/DVDs to be burned onto. A total waste of time and resources nowadays. But hey, can't readily change the fact that these useless POS are daily runners in my line of work.


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## big_adventure (Jan 25, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Paper used is going to the recycle bin anyhow. At a couple of sheets a couple times a week at worse, or a month at times, there's more than that just going there without getting cut. Can't reuse old paper towel to cut it can you? So that's a waste to me. Shaving is all well but... testing the whole length of the blade? That's a forearm fully shaved before long. Receipt paper, get a "roll" of that every grocery. Going to recycling anyhow. So yeah, printer paper, newspaper, receipt paper, if one uses any of them long enough, they start to reveal a lot, and there's always some under hand going to waste anyhow. I prefer newspaper for stropping.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure what you're aiming at there. You need to test that edge at some point, and going to cut food already is all well, but what if I don't need to right now, or what if I discover something I wasn't aware of? I sharpen on the kitchen counter, so yeah the station is all wrapped up and away if I'm cutting food. Bit late and untidy to get it all out again in mid prep. Not like I'm cutting paper for days satisfied with myself.



Sorry! My comment was just a joke. You're write up was, as always, excellent.


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 25, 2022)

JDC said:


> As for sharpening techniques, aside from burr raising and removal, I do an extra step at the end of each stone session, which is "jointing." This is a subtle skill and require some practice, so beware. Basically, you just draw the edge across the stone once or twice lightly, then sharpen both sides for a few strokes, feel the edge with you fingers to see if its scary sharp, if so, move to the next stone.



Have you tried doing this with a small piece of fine stone or very fine sandpaper held in the hand? I believe it will give you a lighter touch.


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## ian (Jan 25, 2022)

Why do you call it jointing?


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## Delat (Jan 25, 2022)

ian said:


> Why do you call it jointing?



I was curious about that as well. In woodworking the term "jointing" refers to making an edge flat in preparation for gluing to another piece. You need to joint both edges to get a clean glue-up.


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## JDC (Jan 25, 2022)

Jointing?


I just came across this technique but have never done it before. Is it beneficial/recommended?




www.badgerandblade.com





This is a debatable technique, some found it useful but some found it pointless. 
In my experience, burr removal is not a problem - edge leading and alternate strokes are usually enough. However, jointing just brings the edge to the next level. 

My hypothesis is, burr creation and removal will inevitably generate fragile segments on the edge which may easily turn into microchips. Also, for heavily used knives, even if you resharpen to create a burr, it may not be big enough to remove larger microchips. Jointing likely solves this problem by removing steel at the edge aggressively (along with any remaining burr). The strokes after it may create an edge that is much more precise and robust. 





Mr.Wizard said:


> Have you tried doing this with a small piece of fine stone or very fine sandpaper held in the hand? I believe it will give you a lighter touch.


I don't find the heavier touch a problem though.


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## Bobby2shots (Jan 26, 2022)

"Jointing" in a sharpening context, is simply an edge realignment. That can be with a circular or curved edge, as well as a straight edge. Basically, it's used to eliminate differences in blade height (peaks and valleys) in a cutting edge, and ultimately create a uniform edge along its'entire edge or circumferance. You "joint" the edge before sharpening. It's a great first step for dealing with chips, as well as other applications.

Example; I "jointed" a heavily damaged Chinese vegetable cleaver by clamping it in a vise, then using an axe-file to remove the entire length of the blade-edge, until the chips disappeared and blended equally into the remainder of the edge. One smooth stroke, from heel to tip,,, then repeat until the damage is gone,,,, and now your set to start resharpening. It's a heckuva lot quicker than trying to sharpen-out chips, and there's no heat.


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## ian (Jan 26, 2022)

Bobby2shots said:


> It's a heckuva lot quicker than trying to sharpen-out chips, and there's no heat.



I feel like this is misleading, though. You have to remove the same amount of steel doing it this way as sharpening out the chips, if you want to end up with a reasonable edge geometry, because you need to rebevel the knife.

I would imagine the advantage of breadknifing or whatever first is that

1) it's easier to know when you're done, since afterwards you just sharpen till you apex the edge, whereas if you're building up a big old sharpening burr while you remove the chips it can be hard to see when they're gone,
2) there's maybe less of a chance that you'll f up the profile,
3) (maybe?) chips in an existing edge might increase in size a little under the stress of sharpening, so maybe there's a chance you could get rid of a bit less steel if you get rid of the chips by breadknifing. Probably part 1) is much more important than 3) for that though. Yea, this is probably bull****.

With "jointing" as defined by JDC, idk if it's any better or worse than using Kippington's method (which is slightly different) on every stone, or just deburring with edge leading strokes on every stone or whatever. I think the general principle is "lots of fast metal removal creates an imperfect edge and a fat burr". So if you want a good edge with as little work as possible, you should try to get rid of any such fat burr before moving up to more gentle high grit sharpening, where it'll take more time to clean up stuff like that. Maybe just focusing on killing the burr via jointing or very high angle strokes is a slightly more efficient way to do that, since you're going to reform the apex anyway in a bit.


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## Bobby2shots (Jan 26, 2022)

Blade-edge (apex) jointing is only the first step. Once the apex is completely uniform in height along the entire length of the blade, then you can "joint" the sides of the bevels using the same file and technique. You're left with a fresh raw edge that you can start refining the bevel.

One of the big advantages of jointing a badly damaged edge with a file, is saving wear and tear on your coarse stones. (most notably; "gouging" from a badly rolled-over or "mushroomed" edge, especially on softer stones.


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## ian (Jan 26, 2022)

It sounds like you’re saying “also do the initial sharpening with a file instead of a stone” which is fine and will save your stones, and may be faster if the knife/axe steel isn’t very hard. Strikes me less as a feature of “jointing” than of the medium you’re using. I’m not really sure what the difference is between “jointing the sides of a bevel” and sharpening.


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## Bobby2shots (Jan 26, 2022)

ian said:


> It sounds like you’re saying “also do the initial sharpening with a file instead of a stone” which is fine and will save your stones, and may be faster if the knife/axe steel isn’t very hard. Strikes me less as a feature of “jointing” than of the medium you’re using. I’m not really sure what the difference is between “jointing the sides of a bevel” and sharpening.



It's primarily about dealing with the specific amount of damage that is present on the blade. Small micro-chips;,,, go ahead and sharpen routinely,,,,, but, with a badly damaged edge,,, I'll joint first. It's faster,,, no heat,,, no stone gouging,,, less stone flattening required,, longer stone life.

The difference with sharpening vs jointing the sides of the bevels, is speed. Remember, I keep saying "for badly damaged and rolled-over edges"


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## JDC (Jan 27, 2022)

Still, my reason for jointing is to make sure the edge is in perfect condition before the next stone. And again, this is the only way for me to achieve HHT4 on SG2 without stropping on pastes.


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## Nemo (Jan 27, 2022)

Sorry if I've been hiding under a rock, but can someone explain what HHT4 or HHT5 means?


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## big_adventure (Jan 27, 2022)

Nemo said:


> Sorry if I've been hiding under a rock, but can someone explain what HHT4 or HHT5 means?



HHT = Hanging Hair Test.

You take a single hair, and hang it over the blade (which is pointing up). Pull the hair down, and if the edge is keen enough, it will skitter or catch on the "scales" in the hair or outright cut the hair.

HHT1 - the hair "violins" over the blade, making noise but not catching and breaking.

HHT2 - the hair catches eventually and splits lengthwise

HHT3 - the hair catches eventually and pops, with the popped end flying away a bit.

HHT4 - the hair catches immediately and pops, with the popped end flying a bit.

HHT5 - the hair is silently cut basically right on contact.

Quality disposable double-edge razor blades (Feather, Astra, blah blah) come out of the wrapper at HHT5.


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## Nemo (Jan 27, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> HHT = Hanging Hair Test.
> 
> You take a single hair, and hang it over the blade (which is pointing up). Pull the hair down, and if the edge is keen enough, it will skitter or catch on the "scales" in the hair or outright cut the hair.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation.


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## big_adventure (Jan 27, 2022)

Nemo said:


> Thanks for the explanation.



That's what supporting members do: we help our mods.


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## Tea_Hills (Jan 27, 2022)

ian said:


> I always thought "hair whittling" was when you could slice a bit off the side of a piece of hair, not cut it in half. Like what you do when you're whittling.
> 
> Good luck with that.



Just saw this thread and wanted to try it out. Turns out it can be done and I'm not master by any stretch. Using the process I outlined in the "Good scientific research" thread I sharpened my Kono HD2 and was able to do it. Here some pics, sorry for the graininess macro shots are hard. This was also after prepping chili last night with it.


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## ian (Jan 27, 2022)

Cool! I guess I was confused about this test. Didn't @big_adventure call that HHT2, actually?

Awesome pic, and looks like you have a sharp knife.


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## Tea_Hills (Jan 27, 2022)

Not sure, haven't heard of the hht tests but I will have to check it out. OP, I would say that I think the most important thing is really precise angle control. I don't freehand anymore but this would be what I would work on. I always found myself always a little off angle when I switched to my 6000 stone from a 1000.


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## Tea_Hills (Jan 27, 2022)

Looking into the HHT test, looks like I did it wrong haha. I held the hair taught to whittle it.


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## big_adventure (Jan 27, 2022)

ian said:


> Cool! I guess I was confused about this test. Didn't @big_adventure call that HHT2, actually?
> 
> Awesome pic, and looks like you have a sharp knife.



By the test "rules" splitting the hair like that is HHT2. It's less keen than the higher numbers, which just pop or smoothly cut the hair straight through. It's still sharper than you _need_ for anything ever in the kitchen.



Tea_Hills said:


> Looking into the HHT test, looks like I did it wrong haha. I held the hair taught to whittle it.



Yeah, if you hold the hair tight, it's a much easier test.

There is, however, a bit of a trick for the test: which end of the hair you hold, and which you drag over the edge, matters a ton. Your hair is composed of scales of dead skin. Like a snake or a fish, these scales have a bias - they are kind of stacked, so from one direction, all you will get is a surface that won't easily catch on a blade, but from the other, the scales can catch. When testing, you want to hold the hair from the tip, with the follicle/bulb on the other side of the blade from your hand. You then lower your hand without moving the blade, and the hair will be drawn across the edge. If the blade is keen enough, it's going to start catching those scales, leading to one of the HHT classes.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Jan 27, 2022)

I use the HHT on razors and always go root in, or holding onto the root end, with a damp hair. Using a damp hair takes the variability of the humidity out of the test.

It's a subjective probing test, so what you get is mainly informative to the person doing the testing and IMO does not work well as a definitive standard from one tester to another.


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## big_adventure (Jan 27, 2022)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I use the HHT on razors and always go root in, or holding onto the root end, with a damp hair. Using a damp hair takes the variability of the humidity out of the test.
> 
> It's a subjective probing test, so what you get is mainly informative to the person doing the testing and IMO does not work well as a definitive standard from one tester to another.



I might have it backwards. I used it last year for fun for a while, and stopped because it's simply not all that indicative of a good edge for a kitchen knife.


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## ian (Jan 27, 2022)




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## big_adventure (Jan 27, 2022)

ian said:


> View attachment 162929



Validation!


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## Tea_Hills (Jan 27, 2022)

That's some weird spaghetti


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## shauk (Jan 29, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> HHT = Hanging Hair Test.
> 
> You take a single hair, and hang it over the blade (which is pointing up). Pull the hair down, and if the edge is keen enough, it will skitter or catch on the "scales" in the hair or outright cut the hair.
> 
> ...




I am not greedy happy if I can achieve HHT3, have refined my method over today. Felt that I am getting better but still not quit close to HHT.

I tried with edge leading stroke on my Sukenari SG2 this time and here's what I did this time:

Raise a small burr rightside of the blade by sharpening left side of the blade
Flip and sharpen the rightside of the blade thus raising a burr on the left side of the blade
Do edge leading stroke on the burr side (left)of the blade (kippington method) gently to remove the at higher angle (appros 40 degree) 
Edge leading stroke on right side of the blade
Leather strop no pressure with compound at a slightly higher angle than the stone

Results...... did not pass the HHT test but the edge felt sharper when slicing through news paper as I did a before and after test cuts... would be good.

Will give it another go again next month, I don't think i need it as SG2 hold a freaking amazing edge compared to my VG-10.


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## Nemo (Jan 29, 2022)

I'm happy if my knife cuts food well.


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## JDC (Jan 29, 2022)

shauk said:


> I am not greedy happy if I can achieve HHT3, have refined my method over today. Felt that I am getting better but still not quit close to HHT.
> 
> I tried with edge leading stroke on my Sukenari SG2 this time and here's what I did this time:
> 
> ...


A smooth stone progression is necessary even if your techniques are spot on. For HHT3+ edges previous scratch patterns need to be (almost) removed.


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## Logan A. (Jan 30, 2022)

shauk said:


> I've only got the SG2 after using the Shiki for a couple of years as I felt that my sharpening skills is good enough to warrant for a better knive... but I got to say I was today years old to know that it's very challenging to get VG10 to hair popping sharp!!
> 
> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
> 
> ...



Can’t say much I regards to optimal sharpening, but I do have some comments about what you said about carbon steel. I think it’s a bit of a misconception that you have to wipe off a carbon steel blade every time you cut. It’s definitely not good to let a carbon steel blade sit with acidic juices on it for 20min, but you in no way need to baby the knife in the same way that many people would suggest. I’ve run through plenty of carbons and have never encountered an issue with rust by leaving them for a little time. They’ll just patina.


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## Kawa (Jan 30, 2022)

Shiro Kamo petty, aogami#2

1st thing to cut: a tomato
1st rust stains: after 2 or 3 minuts (no exaggeration)

So yeah, it is possible.



After a few meals, it got (enough) patina. Now I can leave it for a while.


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## big_adventure (Jan 30, 2022)

Logan A. said:


> Can’t say much I regards to optimal sharpening, but I do have some comments about what you said about carbon steel. I think it’s a bit of a misconception that you have to wipe off a carbon steel blade every time you cut. It’s definitely not good to let a carbon steel blade sit with acidic juices on it for 20min, but you in no way need to baby the knife in the same way that many people would suggest. I’ve run through plenty of carbons and have never encountered an issue with rust by leaving them for a little time. They’ll just patina.



First off: you do know that 100% of steels are "carbon steels," right? Adding carbon to iron is what makes steel. I get that people say this all the time, but you can just say "low alloy steels" and be correct. Sorry, it's my pet peeve.

Second, this isn't correct for many knives. Notably sanmai knives with iron cladding: they can rust through a patina just from humidity. Katos and Shigs, two of the unicorniest unicorns to ever corn about, are both legendary for this. After the patina is stripped on my Kato, dicing two onions will cause stinky sulfur smelling orange rust stains on the blade _during_ the cut. Once the patina is stable, yeah, it's more resistant, but I left it on my rack unoiled once with a deep, full patina in place, and after a one month trip, it had some light traces of rust on the blade.


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## ian (Jan 30, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> First off: you do know that 100% of steels are "carbon steels," right? Adding carbon to iron is what makes steel. I get that people say this all the time, but you can just say "low alloy steels" and be correct. Sorry, it's my pet peeve.
> 
> Second, this isn't correct for many knives. Notably sanmai knives with iron cladding: they can rust through a patina just from humidity. Katos and Shigs, two of the unicorniest unicorns to ever corn about, are both legendary for this. After the patina is stripped on my Kato, dicing two onions will cause stinky sulfur smelling orange rust stains on the blade _during_ the cut. Once the patina is stable, yeah, it's more resistant, but I left it on my rack unoiled once with a deep, full patina in place, and after a one month trip, it had some light traces of rust on the blade.



While this is true, I’d say that Logan’s statement is more true to my experience on average. One should certainly adapt one’s care tactics to the specific blade, and some iron clad knives are super finicky, but this forum sometimes encourages a fastidiousness that’s unnecessary for many car…. *cough* low alloy knives.


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## esoo (Jan 30, 2022)

In my experience, nothing a rust eraser can't fix:





In my house, it is generally the cladding that rusts. I've have rusted 52100, but that was a spot that had been put away wet against the knife rack.


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## Nemo (Jan 30, 2022)

In my home use, I typically rinse my carbon steel knives under running water after finishing with acidic ingredients. I'll quickly wash and wipe dry (15 odd seconds) if I won't be cutting anything with it in the next few mins. A more thorough wash after meat, dirty ingredients or at the end of prep.

Come to think of it, I do the same with my stainless knives.


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## Kawa (Jan 30, 2022)

Same here.

Can imagine in a professional kitchen, you dont have to time for that


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## M1k3 (Jan 31, 2022)

Kawa said:


> Same here.
> 
> Can imagine in a professional kitchen, you dont have to time for that


Bbboooooooo!! Llliiiaaaarrrr!!*

*Says the wrought clad/carbon (non-stainless) core using Line Cook. Depending on the station.


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## JPO (Jan 31, 2022)

shauk said:


> Hi KKFers,
> 
> I've come to a 'bottleneck' in my sharpening skills, I am currently equipped with Suehiro 1k/6k Combi stone & JCK 6k/10k Combi stone (splash & go) and a fine leather strop from KnS.
> 
> ...


I would try to perfect my 1k edge as much as possible before moving to the 6k. Compound on something like leather will probably get you quite far, but if you aim at whittling hair you might benefit from either getting some diamond or CBN emulsion of different grit (0.5 and 0.25 micron). If you add a 3k stone in your progression the transition to the 6k might be easier, but should not be required. Natural stones are really nice to have for finishing, but can be both expensive and difficult to find and match up with the steel you are using. 
JNAT's are hard to beat in my opinion, but they are expensive. They might not be able to get you a sharper edge then the 10k, but the edge retention will probably improve. I have one that will refine a 12k edge, but it is to hard for kitchen knifes in my opinion. 
A good surgical black or a true hard Arkensas stone will get you quite far, but they are really unforgiving if your angle is off.


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## big_adventure (Jan 31, 2022)

esoo said:


> In my experience, nothing a rust eraser can't fix:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree entirely - it's almost always the cladding. I have a a couple of honyakis literally next to a Kato on the mag strip, and they have never shown a hint of rust.


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## big_adventure (Jan 31, 2022)

ian said:


> While this is true, I’d say that Logan’s statement is more true to my experience on average. One should certainly adapt one’s care tactics to the specific blade, and some iron clad knives are super finicky, but this forum sometimes encourages a fastidiousness that’s unnecessary for many car…. *cough* low alloy knives.



I agree entirely - and not just this forum. Many sites will tell you how you need to wash your carb... lloy steels within 6 yoctoseconds of cutting something acidic. Others will say "pfft, a little patina and it's INVINCIBLE." The truth is somewhere in between.


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## Kawa (Jan 31, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Bbboooooooo!! Llliiiaaaarrrr!!*
> 
> *Says the wrought clad/carbon (non-stainless) core using Line Cook. Depending on the station.



So your boss didn't get a message from the shareholders yet: 'we want more profit'


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## M1k3 (Jan 31, 2022)

Kawa said:


> So your boss didn't get a message from the shareholders yet: 'we want more profit'


Eh, let's just say my current boss proclaim's he's "trying not to be a wanker". 

In my opinion, he isn't trying hard enough.


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## jwthaparc (Feb 8, 2022)

Ok. I skipped ahead a little. If you are wanting a very clean edge, from a medium grit stone. I highly recommend you use something not as friable as the cerax 1k.

The 3 body abrasion will end up slightly rounding your apex. It's great if you want a nice looking polish. However, I've always been able to get my best edges when I finish on a stone with absolutely no slurry. 

Something that helps me back for a long time in my sharpening was thinking that the slurry was going to help me get a finer edge. While it can get you a finer scratch pattern. It wont help you get a finer apex.

Edit: in the last message I read you were talking about doing edge leading strokes on the cerax 1k. 

No matter what stone, just make sure you finish with no slurry.


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## JPO (Feb 10, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Ok. I skipped ahead a little. If you are wanting a very clean edge, from a medium grit stone. I highly recommend you use something not as friable as the cerax 1k.
> 
> The 3 body abrasion will end up slightly rounding your apex. It's great if you want a nice looking polish. However, I've always been able to get my best edges when I finish on a stone with absolutely no slurry.
> 
> ...


No slurry finishing using synthetic stones is really the best way to use these stones, unless you are just polishing the secondary bevel. 
If you use natural stones like JNAT's, finishing with slurry might actually give a better edge. 
Under magnification you can see that a synthetic slurry almost erode away the apex of your edge, giving you a more rounded and less durable edge. The same does not happen with some natural stones because the slurry brakes down and cuts differently. 
In Japan some knife sharpeners use natural nagura stones on suitable synthetic stones. It actually works really well with some stones.


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## KingShapton (Feb 10, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> No matter what stone, just make sure you finish with no slurry.


Even if I am of the opinion that this cannot be generalized 100%, it is definitely true in some cases.

That's exactly why Chicago butchers used to dry-sharpen their knives on a hard or black Arkansas. They firmly believed that their edge would stay sharp longer this way. The thought behind this was that the loose metal particles in the oil would damage the apex.

Another example is the Spyderco Bench Stones, used dry.

And even John Juranitch (the razor edge book of sharpening) is a staunch advocate of dry sharpening. I suspect the same thought behind it.

In a video by Cliff Stamp (36# sharpening) he explains why he meticulously cleans the oil stone from the metal abrasion before creating the apex, also the same thought as the butchers from Chicago.


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## ian (Feb 10, 2022)

Idk why using it dry is preferable, as opposed to clean and oiled/wet. Is it so that they can easily brush off the stone and not have to worry about adding more oil? With waterstones, just clean it off and use it wet.

I’d also be more worried about stone particles than metal. Although it’s true that that’s less of an issue if you’re using a super hard stone.


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## jwthaparc (Feb 10, 2022)

ian said:


> Idk why using it dry is preferable, as opposed to clean and oiled/wet. Is it so that they can easily brush off the stone and not have to worry about adding more oil? With waterstones, just clean it off and use it wet.
> 
> I’d also be more worried about stone particles than metal. Although it’s true that that’s less of an issue if you’re using a super hard stone.


Yeah. I wouldn't sharpen dry. at least not with waterstones. Just with a completely clean surface. 

I definitely agree. The abrasive particles are much harder than steel, I would be more worried about those rounding the apex than steel particles. Though neither is ideal when finishing. 

Idk if it is a generalization though. Are there cases where 3 body abrasion is specifically going to get a finer apex? If the finest apex possible is the goal. Then I would say a clean stone will be the absolutely most effective way to get that result. 

Now, that's not saying you have to finish every blade, in every situation, with a clean stone. If the goal is to not have as aggressively fine apex as the final product. I could see an arguement not to clean the stone at the end. Saying you must finish that way may be a generalization, but that leading to the finest apex isn't


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## jwthaparc (Feb 10, 2022)

JPO said:


> No slurry finishing using synthetic stones is really the best way to use these stones, unless you are just polishing the secondary bevel.
> If you use natural stones like JNAT's, finishing with slurry might actually give a better edge.
> Under magnification you can see that a synthetic slurry almost erode away the apex of your edge, giving you a more rounded and less durable edge. The same does not happen with some natural stones because the slurry brakes down and cuts differently.
> In Japan some knife sharpeners use natural nagura stones on suitable synthetic stones. It actually works really well with some stones.


I can't agree or disagree with you on the natural stone thing. What I can say is people that hone razors on Japanese natural stones, generally finish with just plane water, and a very light touch after doing slurry progressions. So I think the 3 body abrasion problem can occur with those too. Just to a lesser extent. 

From my experience I can say I've been able to get the absolutely best edge from my hardest japanese natural (a very hard uchigumori that doesn't give up slurry easily) with no slurry. However my experience doesn't equate to scientific evidence or anything. So take it for what you will.


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## Benuser (Feb 10, 2022)

With synthetic stones who start aggressive but get finer during the sharpening process, there is a problem when deburring. In this last stage you want a clean surface, without swarf, but not so much the initial aggressiveness, as you're likely to not just abrade a burr, but create a new one. A nagura can be helpful to break down the particles. I've used a Blue Belgian as a nagura with a Chosera 2k, only for deburring.


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## JPO (Feb 14, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I can't agree or disagree with you on the natural stone thing. What I can say is people that hone razors on Japanese natural stones, generally finish with just plane water, and a very light touch after doing slurry progressions. So I think the 3 body abrasion problem can occur with those too. Just to a lesser extent.
> 
> From my experience I can say I've been able to get the absolutely best edge from my hardest japanese natural (a very hard uchigumori that doesn't give up slurry easily) with no slurry. However my experience doesn't equate to scientific evidence or anything. So take it for what you will.


Water finishing on JNAT's is really stone dependent, especially if you hone razors. I have a Nakayama Kiita Lv 5 that finishes really well with water or a light slurry. My Shobudani is much harder. This stone grabs the edge much more, so it needs a little trace slurry to keep the steel from sticking to the stone to much. This stone is really what i would call a razor grade hard stone. For razor sharpening we are dealing with a really fragile edge. Too much suction at the finishing stage can be detrimental to edge. I would rather use a hard Arkasas stone if i am honing knifes on a stone that is this hard. This stone also grabs the steel a little, but in a more predictable way. They are really unforgiving if your angle is off, but is one of few stones that seems to burnish and cut at the same time.


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