# By Request, My Experiences With J Knives From The Begining. It's Long....



## vai777 (Aug 1, 2014)

So at the request of a few forum members I am going to write a little bit about my experiences with Japanese knives, how I got into them, and what the end result of years of collecting, sharpening and using them is. 

We shall travel back to 2004/2005 so Ill say early 2005 if I remember correctly. I was looking for a "slicer". You know those special knives that come out during the holidays usually accompanied by a matching forklol. Yeah well anyway, that is how it started. I was so close, ever so close to pulling the trigger on a Wustfoh carving set, but somehow I stumbled upon a forum. That forum was the legendary FoodieForums.com, and it has a sub-forum dedicated to knives. Cant remember the exact name of the sub forum right now but Im sure someone reading this will let me know. 

So that is where I was first introduced to J knives. If I recall correctly at the time the Hattori HD was basically the recommended knife line out at the time, with Tojiro also being mentioned for those who didnt want to fork over what the Hattori HD cost. However THE KNIFE at the time was the NENOX Karin line or simply Nenox S-1. They had the steel, the handles, the geometry everything; they were certainly all the rage. There were a few rare knives floating around at the time including the Ichimonji Mitsuhide gyuto (made from SRS-15 PM) that I ended up buying off someone (had dog in the name if I recall correctly). That Ichimonji is now labeled as Ikeda / Akifusa / Artisan, but still made by Ichimonji Mitsuhide (I believe). Then there was the mythical Hattori KD if you dont know, you probably never will at this point. Outside of the Nenox that was a knife everyone wanted but the price made it out of reach for many, which is why I out the Nenox ahead in terms of popularity at the time. People at least knew they could actually get a Nenox at some point. 

With that being said my first J knife was a Hattori 240MM HD, from JCK to which I was directed by members on FF IT FRIGGIN RULED!!!! After that I was hooked. I got a 150MM Petty, a Honesuki and a Sujihiki, all Hattori HD. I have only the petty left. Right around that time I was learning about single bevels. I wanted a Yanagi not that I had any idea what I was getting myself into but yeah I WANTED ONE BAD!!!! So I bought one but Ill be dammed if I can remember which one. I am pretty sure it was a Suisin Inox but it may have been a Watanabe Kintaro-ame (never used ittoo nice) I also had at one point a Suisin Usubiki (which is a yanagi but thinner) and I had the Suisin Inox Fuguhiki. Good knives if you need a stainless Yanagi but you dont need a stainless yanagi. I bought an Ittosai Suminigashi from Korin (which was a stunning knife) but had to return it because it was scratched on the back. Then I ordered a 330MM Hayate (still have that one) the certificate says 011 and there is no number stamped into the back of the blade (old school). Then I bought the Hayate Sakimaru Takohiki off a forum member, which I just sold last week. I also bought a 240mm Hattori KD and a 150mm Hattori KD Petty. U used the KD a few times; the cladding seems to make it a little less than smooth running through food. I sold it off, but eventually ended up with another one and the other Perry which was 135mm. After those knives it kind of gets hazy I do know I had a 270mm Hattori KD as well got it from Japan Wood Worker and sold it at a profit about a year or so later. 

Somewhere along the line maybe late 06 early 07 Shigefusa came into the picture (obviously he was around way before that but getting a knife in the states was pretty difficult that is where Japan Woodworker came in. Pretty sure I got a 240 kasumi Gyuto and a 270 and 300 kasumi Yanagi from them as well as a Kurouchi Nakiri and Santoku. The rest of the Shigs I had were a 210 kasumi gyuto a 240 kitaeji gyuto, a 300 kitaeji fuguhiki, a 165 kitaeji Nakiri, a 180 kitaeji Usuba, and a 240mm yanagi. The only one of them that got any real use was the 240 yanagi which sharpened up real nice and cut even nicer it is worth the money for the kasumi line no doubt, well it was back then. Somewhere in between those knives I think I purchased two custom Mizuno Tanrenjo Fuguhikis a 270 and a 300 from JCK. 

Then I found AFRAMESTOKYO yeah that was just what I needed. Bought a vintage Masamoto Honyaki, and a Nenohi Mizu Honyaki. Those blades got me hooked on honyaki which would be a really good name for a j knives website or at least make a good knife geek T-shirt but I digress. Around this time I also managed to purchase an Ittosai 300MM Honyaki gyuto, which was absolutely spectacular (I also purchased a used on along the way and actually used it but not before cutting a huge chuck of my nail-bed out white sharpening it) It cut very well but it was a beast to wield around a small kitchen and it was plenty reactive. I made my first trip to Korin around this time ordered another 300mm Ittosai Gyuto but without the special coating they put on the blade. While I was there I picked up an Ittosai Mizu Honyaki 330 Yanagiba and a Suisin Mizu Honyaki Sakimaru Takohiki. The sales people were shocked when I knew what Mizu Honyaki meant kinda felt like they knew I knew what the deal was then. On the next trip down there they knew me by name which was kind of surprising. I only bought a Masamoto 270mm KK Takohiki but Master Sugai (the knife sharpener there) came out and showed me and my wife a rather cool looking knife. He let me hold it and it was basically a yanagi but the backside was flat. He said it was made by a master swordsmith (I assume now it was Tamahagane but I could be wrong). I asked the price 10K. LOL This guy just handed me a 10k knife like it was nothing I handed it back very carefully and thanked him. Yeah I know cool story bro but its true. 

Eventually my order for the Ittosai Honyaki gyuto came in and I took delivery it was just as nice as the other one I had. During this time a new maker came onto the scene Itou. I bought them I bought a lot of them, 240 gyuto, 150 petty and 270 gyuto all with abalone handles (which lead to me being banned on knifeforums Ill get to that in a bit). I was reaching a point now where I had a ton of drawer queens oh crap I forgot about Murray Carter I know I had at least 6 Carters, a 270 sujihiki, a few Wa-Bochos the length of I cannot remember but they were from the high grade series. I had at least one HG Funayuki and a Fukugo-zai Funayuki and well as a petty(ish) kind of knife. 

Anyway somewhere back in time (this is all random stuff I remembered while writing this) there was another knife from Suisin which was like a single bevel funayuki. It had a special name but I cant remember what the hell it was right now. Cool little knife but it was beyond my skill level to use it correctly. I also owned Phil Wilson CPM30V Chefs knife hardest thing to sharpen EVER. I had a small Kikuichi Honyaki Yangiba as well as a Cleaver of some sort from JCK, I had the JCK Forum 240 Gyuto and 150 petty didnt like them too much flex. I also went through 2 Sanetu zdp-189 santokus which I wish I still had DAMN IT!!!!! Had two Hiromoto AS gyutos liked them but not overly thrilled.. they did get wicked sharp though. I ordered two at the same time but ended up with two different version one had a stamped kanji and one had a printed kanji. The one with the stamped kanji had a lot of flex the one with the printed kanji had NONE both from JCK weird. Also owned 2 suisin Ginsan-KO Suminigashi knives a Yanagiba and a Takohiki Had a Nakiri and a Santoku by a very old maker whose name I forget both were kurouchi both were cool little blades. Had a 311mm Takeda yeah that one everyone owned that one at some point. Also had a Takeda Ajikiri awesome little AS knife got stupid sharp. Had a Hiromoto solid white steel #2 gyuto which was also cool, but reactive very very reactive. Still have a Watanabe 240 MM Takohiki White steel wicked sharp knife but has issues with moving. Still own a Masamoto 240mm KK Yangiba still the best yanagi I have used. Have a 270mm Shigeki Tanaka blue #2 Yanagiba gets crazy sharp, and cuts like a dream great deal in a yanagi if you get a good one. Had a Masamoto KK Nakiri which I never got used to cutting with. Still have 3 Hayates a 330 Yanagi. A 330 Takohiki and a 420 Yanagiba. 

After those last Hayates came in (the Takohiki was the last one I believe) I found myself with a bunch of drawer queens (note I did not own all the knives listed above at the same time there was constant buying and selling) and not many users. I was basically cutting up everything with a Blazen petty and a TKC Gyuto (the original ichimonji version). That is if course until I found Ikeda. I was on the phone with EE and wanted another blazen cause I liked the petty so damn much. I was told about the Ikeda (Akifusa) and I figured what the hell well that was pretty much it for me once I got that knife I never felt the need for anything else. Yeah there were more and more pretty knives coming out, damascus, and fancy handles and whatnot but at that point I had had my fair share of expensive knives. I found that in reality you can have customs from very famous makers but sometimes it is the plain jane that you fall for. That being said there are some new mid-line (hell Ill even say cheap) knives out there that are of interest to me. Like the HAP40 Gyuto and the Migaki R2 stuff. Who knows maybe there is something better than the Ikeda but I havent found it yet. 

About those Itou abalone handles. Yeah well the story goes like this. I was a member of Knifeforums (for a little while well actually quite a while but hey). I got into an argument with Fish yeah that Fish about the Itou handles. He was trying to tell me they were fake abalone and I was telling him the were real it escalated to me getting a pin heating it and sticking it to the handle of my $500 Itou gyuto (it did not penetrate or leave a mark. Still didnt believe me and the rest of those clowns piled on. If someone thinks Im going to go along with the crowd just because they all adore a certain member on a forum they have another thing coming he was wrong I was right but that didnt matter. I know I was the new guy relatively speaking but it was mob mentality at its worst ALL OVER A HANDLE ON A FRIGGIM GYUTO. Im sure there are a few members here who were there, in fact a few may have even been in the mob. Long story short I was the first to tell Knife Forums and whoever the **** was admin at the time to go **** themselves, and I see quite a few others followed suit in the years since. And yes I know Fish is dead what can I say the story is an integral part of my J knives / forum experience and if someone doesnt like it TS. 
I like this forum though Ive only been active here and there it still isnt FF nothing will ever be FF because that was a different time, with different people and a different vibe. It was, like I said before a legendary forum which I wish an archive of could be posted online if only to read KCMAs posts, though I think he has a lot of posts on knife forums as well. That guy was the real deal, straight shooter no BS a true forum legend no question about it. Wish he was still around. 

**** I know this is an overwhelming amount of knives, if you have any questions about a particular one feel free to ask, I simply cannot go into detail in this one post about every knife I have owned. Don't let the KF story fool you, I'm actually pretty nice... most of the time. :wink:


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## echerub (Aug 2, 2014)

That is a cool journey 

For the newer guys on the forum who are just starting out, what are the top bits of advice you'd give them based on your experience so far?

I think it'll be interesting to see how those of us who have also had our hands on a few knives will agree and disagree with what we've learned. I have a feeling there will be more agreement than disagreement


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## dream816 (Aug 2, 2014)

Thanks for sharing with us.

I know we are in for a treat when you decide to share your wealth of experience and your amazing knife journey. :goodpost:


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## ShaggySean (Aug 2, 2014)

That truely is a wonderful journey. And one hell of a collection of knives you have had the pleasure of owing and using. I'm glad you at back on a knife forum you' re experience and knowledge will surely be appreciated. And if I want just a broke cook of be all over that doi 330 takaboki great to have you here


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## ecchef (Aug 2, 2014)

Bruce, I think you forgot one...a Nenox S-1 yo deba 240mm. Am I correct?


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

echerub said:


> That is a cool journey
> 
> For the newer guys on the forum who are just starting out, what are the top bits of advice you'd give them based on your experience so far?
> 
> I think it'll be interesting to see how those of us who have also had our hands on a few knives will agree and disagree with what we've learned. I have a feeling there will be more agreement than disagreement



Well I'll say this....

1. If you have never owned a Japanese knife and are used to the German or American stuff... it is a world of difference. You have to be more dedicated to maintaining Japanese knives versus other knives (many people simply cannot grasp that concept). :angryspin: You can't use these things and throw them in a drawer like a Henckels or Wusthof, especially if they are full carbon steel.

2. You will need to re-learn how to cut, and buy something decent to cut on, because a glass or marble cutting "board' isn't going to do you any favors. :beatinghead:

3. NO ONE NEEDS A YANAGIBA... Unless you make sashimi. You don't need one, you should not buy one, they are very very particular knives used for very a particular task. You will look cool cutting the thanksgiving turkey with one but you will destroy your knife, or at the very least damage it badly. :sad0: That being said I have three "users" I use them now maybe once or twice a year. Can I cut super thin pieces of mean with it? Yes. Do I need it to? Nope. A sujihiki will do just as good if not better. 

4. Everything in a normal home kitchen can be done with a petty and a gyuto... EVERYTHING! Unless of course you butcher your own meat or debone chickens yourself... then get a deba and be done with it. 

5. For the beginner and even the advanced sharpener... LESS stones is better. using a 500 1k 2k 4k 6k 8k 10k 15k progression will do nothing but create a billion micro-bevels and increase your chances of making a mistake exponentially. Use a simple set-up with stones you prefer. You will have to determine what stones those are on your own, but I have used Shapton Glass, Chosera, Naniwa and Shapton Pros and they all work just fine. I'd say stick with a 500 2k 5k 8k (frankly you don't even need the 8 but I'll leave it in there). Murray Carter uses a 1k and jumps to a 6k... that's it. If you need something lower for a damaged blade a 220 would come in handy. The Shapton Glass stones wear the least and are splash and go... the Choseras are a little more finicky. 

6. You DO NOT need a 10k edge on a kitchen knife (Gyuto, Petty, Santoku. Nakiri ect......) PERIOD. A professional Yanagiba is another story. If you want to torture yourself put a 10k edge on your gyuto and see how long that lasts when you cook at home... I'll tell you and save you the trouble... 5 minutes (if that) is the answer. You can strop till the cows come home... :doublebanghead: you aren't getting that 10k edge back without re-sharpening. The more you re-sharpen the less life your knife has and the more thinning behind the edge (which is a PITA) you need to do.

7. For the love of god, be careful with these things... they will take a finger off if you are not careful. :knifed:

8 Carbon gets sharper, Stainless lasts longer (the exception being a yanagiba used strictly on protein, then the Carbon steel becomes an advantage because of the superior sharpness). While I say superior, a pro chef will be able to tell the difference, a beginner will not. In fact a pro chef will be able to tell the difference between a honyaki blade (another thing the home cook does not need) and a Hon Kasumi blade without even looking, just the feedback from the cut will tell them. This is not something I can feel because I am not a professional chef, most of us aren't. :wink:

9. A super sharp / polished edge will not give the proper feedback / feel while cutting food. A 10k edge may technically be sharper but I have found that a 5k or 6k stropped ever so slightly give a great edge that will last longer and just feel better while cutting, that's just me though.

10. Shigefusa, Itou, Tanaka, Carter, and the rest of the high end makers are all wonderful craftsmen but there are knives at a 1/3 of the price that will cut just as well. If the Caters and Itous and Shigs cut better, I'd still have them... I don't. That being said... splurge on yourself, :bliss: it is good to own a high end product at least once in your life. It is good to see what near perfection is in a tool, but in the end understand the law of diminishing returns is alive and well in the knife world. For those of you who play guitar or bass... I used to own some pretty high end guitars, Anderson, Suhr, Gibson.... guess what they didn't make me play any better than I did on a good old American Strat. They looked nicer, but they also cost a hell of a lot more. 

11. Carbon is a pain in the ass... :surrendar: I don't like patina, I don't want to see patina,  I don't care if it is just on the edge and the rest of the knife is stainless... :sad0: you keep the carbon over there <----- and I'll stay way over here ----------> with my SRS-15 :bliss:

12. Shuns really aren't that bad :whistling:

13. You will scratch that $500 Damascus gyuto you just bought yesterday :slaphead:

Disclaimer... these are the things I have found to be true during my journey with these knives. YMMV :my2cents:


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

ecchef said:


> Bruce, I think you forgot one...a Nenox S-1 yo deba 240mm. Am I correct?



YES!!!! That was actually a good one... for some reason I remember liking that think heavy blade.


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## Erilyn75 (Aug 2, 2014)

Wow that is quite the journey! Thank you for sharing it. It's always interesting to read about how someone found "the" knife for them.


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## ecchef (Aug 2, 2014)

vai777 said:


> YES!!!! That was actually a good one... for some reason I remember liking that think heavy blade.



I still have it.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 2, 2014)

Thanks Bruce I had to grab a Heineken:beer: to read these threads. Interesting journey, you have had some very fine blades. A true knife geek & some pretty valid perspectives for a home user. Working Hotel Kitchens Japanese knives for me made a huge difference. Got into Japan SB & Cleavers as well.

I still cook quite a bit at home now I'm retired. Hardly use my single bevels at all. Sold a few to cooks who can use them. Still keep a few cleavers around.


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## daddy yo yo (Aug 2, 2014)

Thanks for sharing!

What HAP40 gyuto are you talking about? 

Oh, and I really like those honest words, the words of wisdom, your bits of advice... Made me smile and laugh out loud sometimes...


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## menzaremba (Aug 2, 2014)

This is exactly what I was hoping for, thanks for writing it. I think your rules are right on (other than about patina


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## dream816 (Aug 2, 2014)

Yes, I don't understand why people who doesn't make sashima/sushi buys a yanagiba. Then again, it is your money and if it makes you happy, that is all that matters. :thumbsup:


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## liren1 (Aug 2, 2014)

I have one, I try to cut Sashimi once in a while, though I'm 100% sure that it doesn't turn out any nicer than what I would get with a sujihiki, probably because I don't really know how to cut, it's just cool to have and to use. And if we're talking about diminishing returns, with the exception of Kramer knives expensive knives are much cheaper than expensive watches, and yet people will spend $10,000 on a watch when a $20 one will show you the time just as well, there the returns start diminishing very quickly indeed, and still people spend money on them, and have several when one will do. Human nature.


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## Chefu (Aug 2, 2014)

What a great post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions on J-knives. Seems to me this would be a good post for beginners to read and perhaps learn from your journey.


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## Customfan (Aug 2, 2014)

Nice! That was an invigorating read, I felt the same way on some of my experiences and buys, mainly the nenox and others but thanks for taking the time for writing that up!


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## cabarete_cub (Aug 2, 2014)

vai777 thank you very much. It was a pleasurable read, although I wasn't able to drool as much as others not knowing half the names you mentioned. 
Very helpful for a beginner to get insight and perspective. If possible could you elaborate a bit more on how you maintenance and sharpening habits
evolved?


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## Dave Martell (Aug 2, 2014)

Bruce, I never knew why you got banned at KF, just that it happened and there seemed to be some hard feelings left over. I may have participated in that Itou handle thread too and if I contributed to a negative feeling you received I apologize. That sure brought back memories. 

Thanks for posting your knife story.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

ecchef said:


> I still have it.



Cool


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> Thanks Bruce I had to grab a Heineken:beer: to read these threads. Interesting journey, you have had some very fine blades. A true knife geek & some pretty valid perspectives for a home user. Working Hotel Kitchens Japanese knives for me made a huge difference. Got into Japan SB & Cleavers as well.
> 
> I still cook quite a bit at home now I'm retired. Hardly use my single bevels at all. Sold a few to cooks who can use them. Still keep a few cleavers around.



Glad you enjoyed it.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

daddy yo yo said:


> Thanks for sharing!
> 
> What HAP40 gyuto are you talking about?
> 
> Oh, and I really like those honest words, the words of wisdom, your bits of advice... Made me smile and laugh out loud sometimes...



I don't want to post the link here... google HAP40 gyuto... you will find it.


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## JBroida (Aug 2, 2014)

vai777 said:


> \There were a few rare knives floating around at the time including the Ichimonji Mitsuhide gyuto (made from SRS-15 PM) that I ended up buying off someone (had dog in the name if I recall correctly). That Ichimonji is now labeled as Ikeda / Akifusa / Artisan, but still made by Ichimonji Mitsuhide (I believe).



Just to throw out a correction, as i've gotten a number of e-mail questions about it now. The above statement is not accurate. Ichimonji Mitsuhide is not the maker of this knife. Similar to Ichimonji, Ikeda, Akifusa, etc., it is just another brand name.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

menzaremba said:


> This is exactly what I was hoping for, thanks for writing it. I think your rules are right on (other than about patina



Yeah I know a lot of people would disagree on that one. It probably really isn't an issue, just a hang-up of mine. In reality I have seen some pretty cool patinas forced and unforced.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

dream816 said:


> Yes, I don't understand why people who doesn't make sashima/sushi buys a yanagiba. Then again, it is your money and if it makes you happy, that is all that matters. :thumbsup:



Yeah that is what I am saying... most of these things we do not need, but they are interesting and it doesn't hurt to try and experiment. You are right if you have the money and you want an Yanagiba... but a yanagiba... I did... :biggrin:


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

liren1 said:


> I have one, I try to cut Sashimi once in a while, though I'm 100% sure that it doesn't turn out any nicer than what I would get with a sujihiki, probably because I don't really know how to cut, it's just cool to have and to use. And if we're talking about diminishing returns, with the exception of Kramer knives expensive knives are much cheaper than expensive watches, and yet people will spend $10,000 on a watch when a $20 one will show you the time just as well, there the returns start diminishing very quickly indeed, and still people spend money on them, and have several when one will do. Human nature.



Yes very true, it is the "hip" factor. Also in many cases it is simply a way to show off that one has money, which may or may not be a good thing, it's a status thing...


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

Customfan said:


> Nice! That was an invigorating read, I felt the same way on some of my experiences and buys, mainly the nenox and others but thanks for taking the time for writing that up!



Yeah Nenox was all the rage...lol... can't tell you how much I lusted over the sujihiki...


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

cabarete_cub said:


> vai777 thank you very much. It was a pleasurable read, although I wasn't able to drool as much as others not knowing half the names you mentioned.
> Very helpful for a beginner to get insight and perspective. If possible could you elaborate a bit more on how you maintenance and sharpening habits
> evolved?



Well for the carbon knives I simply kept them oiled with Tsubaki oil. and in their boxes when not in use. The stainless went in a knife block. As far as sharpening I use a combination of stones / papers and strops (I used to be obsessed with sharpening.. seriously obsessed) but now I think simple is better. Sometimes I do a convex edge... seem to last a little longer. I still haven't mastered freehand on the stones for double bevel knives. Single bevel I have found to be much easier and can get a wicked edge. 

I have Chosera stones 400 1k 2k 5k a Kitayama Snow White 8K (which is a PITA) and I have a 10k and 12k Naniwa Super stone. Honestly I could probably get by with the Chosera 400 1k 5k and then just strop the edges a bit. Oh I also have a 500 1k and 2k Shapton Glass stone... great stones, splash and go... dish very slowly. 

Back in the day there was a place called "HandAmerican" that sold direct. They carried super high grit papers that I bought a ton of. 5k 9k and 16k I believe. I use these papers on top of a hard leather strop to hone the edges... though I mostly just use the 5k and 9k now as the 16 (might be 15k) does some funky stuff to the edge. I also have some diamond spray... don't bother... it is over the top... useless for the kitchen. 

One piece of equipment you MUST own is a hard felt pad/strop... it does wonders removing burrs... other than that it really is going to be about what you are comfortable with.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

Dave Martell said:


> Bruce, I never knew why you got banned at KF, just that it happened and there seemed to be some hard feelings left over. I may have participated in that Itou handle thread too and if I contributed to a negative feeling you received I apologize. That sure brought back memories.
> 
> Thanks for posting your knife story.



Yeah that was the beginning of it. I called out Fish because I though he was being ignorant on the topic. Obviously he had a ton of friends over there and they were naturally going to side with him, which was fine. What I didn't like was that I didn't feel like I could say something even though it was totally true simply because one person on the forum disagreed and said otherwise. I'm pretty sure it got really really nasty (due in no small part to my tendency to be pretty blunt when I feel something is wrong). There was a **** ton of name calling and general chaos that resulted in a few PM's from some people who supported me but didn't feel comfortable posting it on the forum for fear of "retribution" yada yada yada... I also think the headmasters at the time JN, MS and probably a few others PM'd me and TOLD me to tone it down, to which I promptly responded GO **** YOUSELF... and that was that...LOL. 

I kind of revel in the fact that the sub forum is pretty much a ghost town now, and everyone probably saw what I did early on. 

As far as you being involved in the KF incident I don't remember having any issue with anything you said... it was really just the head honchos who I guess are still in charge over there. I wouldn't have joined up here (only a few days after the site went live I believe) if I thought you were part of the mob.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

JBroida said:


> Just to throw out a correction, as i've gotten a number of e-mail questions about it now. The above statement is not accurate. Ichimonji Mitsuhide is not the maker of this knife. Similar to Ichimonji, Ikeda, Akifusa, etc., it is just another brand name.



Cool... you learn something new every day....


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

Though the more and more I start hearing stuff like this... it leads me to believe there is some giant factory somewhere in some bunker in Japan that make 90% of all the knives out there... and resellers simply stamp some logo / kanji on it.


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## JBroida (Aug 2, 2014)

vai777 said:


> Though the more and more I start hearing stuff like this... it leads me to believe there is some giant factory somewhere in some bunker in Japan that make 90% of all the knives out there... and resellers simply stamp some logo / kanji on it.



there are still quite a few craftsmen around, but retailers/wholesalers also tend to have a lot of overlap as their offerings grow... its important to note that differences can occur though... even from the same craftsmen


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

For instance... http://akifusa.com/kkt.html

An awful lot of knives on that site look very familiar... under different names....


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

JBroida said:


> there are still quite a few craftsmen around, but retailers/wholesalers also tend to have a lot of overlap as their offerings grow... its important to note that differences can occur though... even from the same craftsmen



If anything it should give people an incentive perhaps to buy from the smaller makers simply because it is nice to know who actually made you knife. When I buy a Masamoto I assume it was made in a Masamoto factory/shop. I won't know the individual maker but at least I'm pretty confident (for now at least) that someone from Masamoto actually had a hand in making it. These other knives out there (despite how great they are...my favorite is the Ikeda SRS-15) really are difficuly to trace to their origins unless of course you are in the industry and have a few connections. It would be nice to know who actually makes them (Akifusa, Ichimonji , Artisan). Could it be Ikeda? If not then it just opens another door leading down another path with more misinformation. Not sure why these companies feel it necessary to be so secretive of their product lines.


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## JBroida (Aug 2, 2014)

vai777 said:


> If anything it should give people an incentive perhaps to buy from the smaller makers simply because it is nice to know who actually made you knife. When I buy a Masamoto I assume it was made in a Masamoto factory/shop. I won't know the individual maker but at least I'm pretty confident (for now at least) that someone from Masamoto actually had a hand in making it. These other knives out there (despite how great they are...my favorite is the Ikeda SRS-15) really are difficuly to trace to their origins unless of course you are in the industry and have a few connections. It would be nice to know who actually makes them (Akifusa, Ichimonji , Artisan). Could it be Ikeda? If not then it just opens another door leading down another path with more misinformation. Not sure why these companies feel it necessary to be so secretive of their product lines.



your assumption about mamamoto would be wrong. People feel the need to be secretive because there is overlap, and everyone tries to copy everyone else. Sad, but its just the way it is. I used to be a lot more open about info like this until it started biting me in the ass. Also, in many cases, i am asked not to share by the craftsmen we work with in japan, as they are trying to be sensitive to other companies they work with.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

JBroida said:


> your assumption about mamamoto would be wrong. People feel the need to be secretive because there is overlap, and everyone tries to copy everyone else. Sad, but its just the way it is. I used to be a lot more open about info like this until it started biting me in the ass. Also, in many cases, i am asked not to share by the craftsmen we work with in japan, as they are trying to be sensitive to other companies they work with.



jesus...lol... so it's basically a convoluted mess of "I have this knife branded such and such, but in reality I have no clue as to what it really is (other than the fact that it is a knife (I think) and there is little chance that I will ever be able to find out who or at least what company made it. I guess in the end it really isn't that important but I do find it rather annoying.


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## JBroida (Aug 2, 2014)

its not quite that simple... in most cases, there are quite a few companies involved in the production of each knife.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

JBroida said:


> its not quite that simple... in most cases, there are quite a few companies involved in the production of each knife.



I understand that, even for the high end stuff... a Hayate for example isn't completely made my Mr. Doi. I just find it odd that there can be (in Akifusa's case) the same knife represented under 4 or 5 different brand names. Ikead, Akifusa, Artisan, Ichimonji, Gesshin Kagero (I think). That is just one of many examples of this... Ryusen / Hattori / Maruyoshi / god knows who else. The list goes on and on.


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## JBroida (Aug 2, 2014)

yeah... there is quite a bit of overlap out there, but most of what you see is overlap in retailers/wholesalers making their own brands.

FWIW, there are some differences between what we do and what you see in the others.


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## echerub (Aug 2, 2014)

Something that got my attention... yanagiba  Can I just say that if you slice fish, whether for sushi, sashimi, or some of the Cantonese stuff I do, they are *wonderful* tools. I find the single-bevel blade gives me more consistent results with less conscious effort than a double-bevel suji or gyuto. The knife is designed to slice fish nicely, cleanly, and consistently and it just wants to do it.

If you're just portioning out blocks of fish for broiling, sauteeing, etc, then you won't *need* a yanagiba ... though you might still *want* one


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

echerub said:


> Something that got my attention... yanagiba  Can I just say that if you slice fish, whether for sushi, sashimi, or some of the Cantonese stuff I do, they are *wonderful* tools. I find the single-bevel blade gives me more consistent results with less conscious effort than a double-bevel suji or gyuto. The knife is designed to slice fish nicely, cleanly, and consistently and it just wants to do it.
> 
> If you're just portioning out blocks of fish for broiling, sauteeing, etc, then you won't *need* a yanagiba ... though you might still *want* one



100% correct... if one knows how to use it properly they cannot be beat for cutting thin slices of fish... other than that though... not so much


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## orangehero (Aug 2, 2014)

JBroida said:


> FWIW, there are some differences between what we do and what you see in the others.



I wish you could elaborate on those differences.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 2, 2014)

For it's intended use nothing beats a yanagiba. I was actually slicing sashimi with a Sugi before I got my first true quality yanagi years ago. Also enjoy sharpening carbon SB, finger pads fit snug in the hollow ground backside. They get razor sharp. 

I have no problem with someone wanting one & enjoying sharpening it. They are cool blades.

Never minded the little extra care my work carbons needed minor. The keen edges & ease of sharpening worth it. I think ease of sharpening takes a back seat to edge retention, but I will tell you in a busy banquet kit. a couple lite sweeps to refresh your edge is a big plus.

I know I sound like a broken record, carbons are best if used for hours everyday. They do not do well sitting around unless you oil & store them correctly.

I will add a couple of my takes: My only stainless knives at work last 25 yrs. Forschner boning & sandwich scallop edge. All Gyuto, Yanagi, cleavers carbon steel.

1.Thin carbons you need to protect those sharp edges just a little knife care. Do not twist or tork them. Other than that you do not have to baby them they are meant to be cutting machines & that they are. I have worn down carbons over years they keep going even after massive amounts of prep. Just look at some Japanese knives handles & steel are worn down & still being used.

2.Some statements are made about carbons as if fact by persons who have never used them day in & day out for massive prep. I have nothing against Chad Ward agree with a lot of what he says. Do not agree with his take on carbons in production kitchens. It is based on hear say not experience. Chinese have in the past & many still do with carbon cleavers cut up anything & everything that goes in that Wok.

3. Have for the last couple years tried quite a few stainless knives mentioned here, have sold most all of them to cooks & students. I realize the vast majority of folks like stainless knives, & would be the first to admit stainless kitchen knives are better than they ever have been in the past. Have held on to my Gesshin Ginga. Finally found a good stainless cleaver. Still I will be a carbon junkie till they plant me. Disclamer :2cents:


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

"I know I sound like a broken record, carbons are best if used for hours everyday. They do not do well sitting around unless you oil & store them correctly."

That is the truest statement right there. The carbons will get sharper faster and if you working with a knife hours a day, yeah carbon is probably going to be worth it even for just the quick strop and go abilities of the knife. I had a Hiromoto AS Carbon and it did get super sharp super fast, I am pretty sure I sold it off... if not it is hiding pretty well.


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## Asteger (Aug 2, 2014)

Interesting discussion here. Keep it up.



keithsaltydog said:


> Finally found a good stainless cleaver.



Quick question - which cleaver is this?


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## Salty dog (Aug 2, 2014)

Funny, I was considering writing a similar post. After seeing how long this one is I'm glad I didn't.

Long story short:

I've learned to like good stainless.
I don't use yanagis much anymore. (It was fun for awhile)
I won't sell any of my carbon Mizuno Tanrenjos.
I only need four stones.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

Salty dog said:


> Funny, I was considering writing a similar post. After seeing how long this one is I'm glad I didn't.
> 
> Long story short:
> 
> ...



Yeah it could have been longer but it was pretty much stream of conscious writing that is why it is all over the place...


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## Salty dog (Aug 2, 2014)

and from the parts that I read it is very much appreciated.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 2, 2014)

Asteger said:


> Interesting discussion here. Keep it up.
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question - which cleaver is this?



This is not a vegitable cleaver tho you can cut veggi's with it. It's good for birds ,meats,etc. I use it most to chop up frozen fruit for smoothies. It is the Tojiro Pro F-920 VG-10 core, rather heavy at 1 pound 2oz. 

It is the one with that dumb bolt sticking out the back. I sawed it off with a hacksaw & epoxy the gaps. Also epoxy gaps at the collar. I'm always fooling wt. handles anyway, it was a quick fix. The wood barrel handle is very comfortable, the convex grind on it is excellent. Been chopping up frozen fruit over a year, no chipping at all.

Tojiro's are known for their Bread Knife & decent Gyuto's. They certainly know how to make a cleaver, their other cleavers are solid performers as well.


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## larrybard (Aug 2, 2014)

Thank you! And for those like myself who are slowly attempting to assimilate at least a portion of the vast body of information and wisdom that is available on KKF (though, unfortunately, much of it often widely dispersed and fragmented), what you wrote is not only fascinating but also instructive, such as the portion concerning value (Akifusa, Kohetsu, Takamura, or whatever you might have been alluding to). It also reinforces, at least for me, both the importance of listening closely to the advice of experienced, knowledgeable owners, and also extremely knowledgeable and reliable trusted intermediaries such as Jon.


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## vai777 (Aug 2, 2014)

larrybard said:


> Thank you! And for those like myself who are slowly attempting to assimilate at least a portion of the vast body of information and wisdom that is available on KKF (though, unfortunately, much of it often widely dispersed and fragmented), what you wrote is not only fascinating but also instructive, such as the portion concerning value (Akifusa, Kohetsu, Takamura, or whatever you might have been alluding to). It also reinforces, at least for me, both the importance of listening closely to the advice of experienced, knowledgeable owners, and also extremely knowledgeable and reliable trusted intermediaries such as Jon.




glad I could help a bit...


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## kevpenbanc (Aug 2, 2014)

Thanks for sharing, sounds like you've been down several layers of rabbit holes.


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## Ruso (Aug 3, 2014)

Very nice post, OP.
You've had some rally cool knives, I could ever dream of.
Which made me little bit scared to the direction I am headed  

I was surprised you did not mention Heiji, my assumption was that he was around the block for some time now and since he has a stainless (semi-stainless) it's right up your alley. 

Any knife/maker you did not have, but want to?


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## vai777 (Aug 3, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Very nice post, OP.
> You've had some rally cool knives, I could ever dream of.
> Which made me little bit scared to the direction I am headed
> 
> ...



The Heiji stuff became widely available after I stopped really collecting. Maybe one day I will try one, but they seem kind of thick. I am interested in the Migaki R-2 stuff and the HAP40 Kohetsu knives... other than that everything else that I l like is ultra expensive. The stuff coming out of Catcheside Cutlery is off the charts crazy. UNBELIEVEABLE stuff.


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## Ruso (Aug 3, 2014)

> ... but they seem kind of thick.


Was very true in my experience, but love the steel.


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## Asteger (Aug 3, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> Asteger said:
> 
> 
> > Which cleaver is this?
> ...



Thanks for the answer.


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## jaybett (Aug 3, 2014)

The old ITK forum was place to be, if you wanted to know about knives. There was a lot of cross over between ITK and Food Forum, but what set ITK apart was its moderators. 

Besides being an outstanding craftsman, Fish was a very good moderator. Welcoming to newbies, willing to share his vast knowledge about knives, able to defuse difficult situations with grace and good humor. He was incredibly generous. A forum member some how snapped his knife off at the handle. Fish asked the member to send him the pieces. A few months later the member got a package from Fish. Inside was a new honsuki. Fish had reground the blade and put a handle on it. Fish never said one word about it. 

Fish, Lee and users such as Andy777, were searching the Internet looking for new makers. If they found something of interest they would email the maker, asking for a quote. Upon reaching an agreement they would send an IPMO, because paypal wasn't common at the time. They could wait months for the knife to show up. Often when somebody would post about a new knife maker, it wasn't unusual to find out Fish or Lee already owned the knife. 

Andy purchased from Sugimoto a cleaver from the OMS line, the high end line. Andy and other users of Sugimoto cleavers commented the knifes don't look good, they were work horse knifes, that performed well in the kitchen. 

Shortly thereafter Vai777 picks up an OMS cleaver. He posts that the cleaver has a rough fit and finish. Instead of sending the cleaver back, he takes the cleaver to a grinder to clean it up. Finding that it is going to be a big job, he decides to sell the knife, without ever trying it. 

Sujihiki versus Yanagiba is a topic that has often been discussed. I haven't used an Yanagiba enough to form an opinion. KCMA's opinion was that the Yanigiba was the Cadillac of slicers. People asked for clarification, but his response usually was the Yanagiba is the better slicer.

Jon Broida has a video of KCMA using a Yanagiba. I wonder if KCMA's other videos still exist?

Jay


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## vai777 (Aug 3, 2014)

I did have an OMS cleaver but I do not own a grinder so I'm not sure what you are talking about. I do remember the finish being rough, really rough. Yes I did sell it, but what exactly is your point? PS.... FF > ITK


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## Timthebeaver (Aug 3, 2014)

jaybett said:


> I wonder if KCMA's other videos still exist?
> 
> Jay



http://s74.photobucket.com/user/kcma_2nd/media/food/knives/knife cuts/P1010321_converted.mp4.html


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 3, 2014)

Asteger said:


> Thanks for the answer.



Just like to mention that I had struck out trying a couple stainless cleavers till I found the Tojiro. I think that their cleavers are top notch. Andy777 & Joe-C liked the Tojiro's and for good reason. They have gone up some in price, if you can find used ones grab it. The metal handle Tojiro's should not be confused with the all metal stainless cleavers made in china which are junk. The Tojiro all metals have quality steel, heat treatment, and grinds.

Blueway Japan sells the F-921 (lighter than mine) with wood handle.


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## jaybett (Aug 3, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> http://s74.photobucket.com/user/kcma_2nd/media/food/knives/knife cuts/P1010321_converted.mp4.html



Thanks!


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## Asteger (Aug 4, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> Asteger said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the answer.
> ...



Thanks again for the tips. Yes, I'm a chuka fan and carefully considering a new purchase. Don't mean to sidetrack the thread, but veg-cleaver talk here is not that prevalent.


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