# Shirogami...



## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 11, 2022)

Fair warning, the following is buried at the bottom of a bucket full of whatifs, itdepends, and prefrences mixed with toobroadisms and no doubt topped with a splash of whocares but here goes...

I have a hard time warming up to shirogami/white steel. More specifically, I have a hard time entertaining paying premium prices for it. Now, obviously I'm a home cook and I can see the attraction a pro cook, especially in sushi would have for it, but for me? I just find it lacking.

Yeah, it sharpens easily and wonderfully but from a practical point of view, with the right gear and understanding, so does most stuff. At least for a lasting "working edge". While I haven't found it egregious, it is certainly more prone to rust than other carbons and doesn't hold it's edge nearly as well as many of them.

I'm only pondering this as I find a number of knives I like but will see they are in white steel. Now, I fully appreciate the notion of buying the design over the steel, but I also feel like there's a bevy of choices and I find myself looking elsewhere for some aogami or some such. I'm not a steel snob perse but I find myself increasingly turned off by shirogami.

I reckon I'm just musing but also wondering what the thoughts of others are. Not a new topic I know but hey, it's the weekend, what else do you have to do?


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## M1k3 (Mar 11, 2022)

Not a fan, but, wouldn't turn down the right knife just because it's shirogami.


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## Ggmerino (Mar 12, 2022)

I’ve tried many steels, and nothing gets as sharp as Shirogami 1 for me. except maybe Aogami Super. And I find it super easy to sharpen compared to other high hardness steels (think crucible steels). I don’t have problems with edge retention. I have a TF and a Hitojira Togashi In White 1- neither has a very aggressive profile- but boy do they get an edge! Maybe I just got lucky with good steel treatment? I did force a patina even though both are stainless clad to tame the reactivity a bit.


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## Pie (Mar 12, 2022)

I like white steel. White #2 is sort of the boring standard, which is a fair assessment if I’m being honest. Retention isn’t amazing, not ultra hard (usually), not really all that durable..

But oh boy does it get sharp. And easily too. It’s entirely possible I’m just not able to get other steels this sharp, but for someone at my level it’s nice to consistently be able to produce “benchmark” results. 

A couple wobbly swipes on a fast jnat is all it takes to bring back crazy sharp.


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## rmrf (Mar 12, 2022)

I like that white #2 gets dull fast so I can sharpen more often. If all I used was zwear, I would be even worse at sharpening than I am now.

Of course, I don't buy white #2 knives because they dull quickly. That would be like buying a Ferrari because it breaks down. It just so happens that most of the knives I'm interested in geometry wise around my price point are white #2. Frankly, I'd prefer everything to be stainless or semi-stainless. However, I don't know where to get inexpensive semi-stainless knives with a thick spine at the pinch and thin and the tip and behind the edge besides yoshikane.


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## SirCutAlot (Mar 12, 2022)

Pie said:


> A couple wobbly swipes on a fast jnat is all it takes to bring back crazy sharp.



It`s just like steeling german steel, without efford a sharp knife with a quick touch on a natural. The steels that keep a nearly as sharp as white edge need more attention and time. I also have to resharpen/touchup steels like Aogami 52100 1.2519 1095 etc. every single day so i don`t get why i should choose other steels for this reason. There are for sure steels that keep a usable sharpness for 2 days or more but they are more expensive and sharpening is not the fun it used to be with white steel.

+the most sought after japanese knifes are in White Steel or alike (Kato, Tsukasa, Shigefusa) . 

SirCutALot


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## Jovidah (Mar 12, 2022)

I'm somewhat inclined to agree. Shirogami sharpens easy as pie and real quick, but edge retention leaves something to be desired. Can't say I'm overly bothered by reactivity; white steel itself isn't a problem in reactivity IMO. Iron cladding though...
I don't know why the trend seems to be that there's so much white steel lately. Guess it's cheaper since it's so easy to grind?


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## daddy yo yo (Mar 12, 2022)

I don’t care about the steel. All I need is more knives!!!


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## esoo (Mar 12, 2022)

My.one quality shirogami 2 knife (a Kono FM) I thought was a bit of a dud. It went "sharp, sharp, super dull" in a manner I didn't like and I found to be a PITA to sharpen. 

My one shirogami 1 knife (a Kono FM) has been exceptional. Easy to sharpen and has stayed sharp for longer than expected.


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## daveb (Mar 12, 2022)

I like white in some applications but not all.

Stainless clad white, Gengetsu, Yoshi, (others?) sharpen readily and reactivity (fancy word for rusting) is not a problem.

White on a yani, deba or usuba is fine - not as reactive with fish / veg and you're going to be wiping down a lot anyway.

I've found it unacceptable to me on working knives such as Ashi, Gesshin Ginga, where the reactivity starts before I can reach for a towel.


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## daddy yo yo (Mar 12, 2022)

daveb said:


> I like white in some applications but not all.
> 
> Stainless clad white, Gengetsu, Yoshi, (others?) sharpen readily and reactivity (fancy word for rusting) is not a problem.
> 
> ...


Oh boy, yeah, there are knives out there where reactivity starts before using!!!


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 12, 2022)

I find shirogami 1 and its equivalents especially problematic. To me, they just don't offer any advantage over 52100. Roughly same carbide volume (varies a lot based on HT), same achievable hardness, worse wear resistance, and toughness. Granted in low alloy steels those differences aren't huge (except for toughness). Adding this Shiro 1 is especially hard to HT in a forge because of its extremely high carbon content (although I'm not sure how common it still is to ht in a forge). I don't really understand why so many makers opt to use it over other cheap and widely available steels that by all objective metrics should provide better end performance.



Jovidah said:


> I don't know why the trend seems to be that there's so much white steel lately. Guess it's cheaper since it's so easy to grind?



I'd be interested in knowing this as well. In my experience, it is really no harder to grind than 52100 or Aogami. But maybe the grinding stones often used are more sensitive to the slight changes in the hardness of the bulk material or carbides than belt grinders.


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## daddy yo yo (Mar 12, 2022)

Could it be that availability and habit are reasons for the wide-spread use of Shirogami, especially in Japan?


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## esoo (Mar 12, 2022)

daveb said:


> I like white in some applications but not all.
> 
> Stainless clad white, Gengetsu, Yoshi, (others?) sharpen readily and reactivity (fancy word for rusting) is not a problem.
> 
> ...



Is the reactivity that bad on a Ashi shirogami monosteel? 

I ask as I've always found (as a home cook) that the bad reactivity is the cladding and not really the core.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 12, 2022)

daddy yo yo said:


> Could it be that availability and habit are reasons for the wide-spread use of Shirogami, especially in Japan?



I would guess that habit/tradition plays a very large role.


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## daveb (Mar 12, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I don't really understand why so many makers opt to use it over other cheap and widely available steels that by all objective metrics should provide better end performance.



Sipping coffee and making assumptions here. I've not seen white of any flavor used except by Japanese makers. My guess is that it's readily available and inexpensive and has become an accepted (even preferred?) steel for the Japanese market. Don't recall any western makers (except MC) using it. Another guess is that the export market is noise to most Japanese makers.

On this side of the pond, 52100 among others is more available and there are a bunch of "super steels" as well.


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## daveb (Mar 12, 2022)

esoo said:


> Is the reactivity that bad on a Ashi shirogami monosteel?



For me, yes it was. Owned two. Don't own two.


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## Delat (Mar 12, 2022)

I’m currently playing with a Wakui stainless-clad white 2 and was really surprised how effective stropping is on it. I haven’t sharpened it yet, but noticed the OOTB edge was getting a touch dull after use and just a few strokes on the strop got it stick-in-the-board sharp.

Edge retention mirrors my experience with a Y Tanaka white 2, definitely not great. I generally avoid aogami but made an exception for the wakui.


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## EShin (Mar 12, 2022)

As with any steel, I think it really depends on the heat treatment, geometry, use etc. I've used very bad examples of white 2, but also good ones that get sharp very easily and don't and have an ok edge retention. Also, I think white 2 might make most sense for traditional Japanese single bevel knives. That being sad, the availability of steels, habit and knowledge clearly play a big role. At least in Sakai, there hasn't really been a demand for other steels than the ones that have been used for a long time so not much reason for the blacksmiths to search for alternatives and experiment with them. But with recent developments with Hitachi Metals, it seems that the steels could be no longer available in the future, so some people in the industry have started thinking about possible solutions like cooperating with makers in Niigata Sanjo and Takefu, or importing steels from abroad as a last resort. It might lead to people learning a bit more about the different kinds of steels that are available now, which would be good I think.



Troopah_Knives said:


> I'd be interested in knowing this as well. In my experience, it is really no harder to grind than 52100 or Aogami. But maybe the grinding stones often used are more sensitive to the slight changes in the hardness of the bulk material or carbides than belt grinders.


That seems to be very very different with the grinding wheels commonly used in Japan that are very sensitive to slight changes in hardness from what I hear. White 2 is much easier and faster to grind than e.g. white 1 or blue steels, so basically all sharpeners like white 2 best.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 12, 2022)

EShin said:


> That seems to be very very different with the grinding wheels commonly used in Japan that are very sensitive to slight changes in hardness from what I hear. White 2 is much easier and faster to grind than e.g. white 1 or blue steels, so basically all sharpeners like white 2 best.


 
Quite possible. Although I don't know what mechanism would cause that. I've heard other western makers complain about it being noticeably harder to grind harder steels so maybe I'm the outlier.


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## Eloh (Mar 12, 2022)

The steel makes kinda sense for knives with acute edge angles and hardly any board contact, eg Suji/Yanagi. But for chef knives (/gyutos) for western cuisine with lots of cutting board contact there's a long list of better choices imo


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 12, 2022)

rmrf said:


> I like that white #2 gets dull fast so I can sharpen more often. If all I used was zwear, I would be even worse at sharpening than I am now.
> 
> Of course, I don't buy white #2 knives because they dull quickly. That would be like buying a Ferrari because it breaks down. It just so happens that most of the knives I'm interested in geometry wise around my price point are white #2. *Frankly, I'd prefer everything to be stainless or semi-stainless. However, I don't know where to get inexpensive semi-stainless knives with a thick spine at the pinch and thin and the tip and behind the edge besides yoshikane.*



Check out the X-Hammer Ittetsu line at SHARP Knife Shop. I have the bunka and it is wide out of the handle and I'd guess the other offerings are as well. Give Gage a call and he'll tell ya the specifics.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 12, 2022)

EShin said:


> As with any steel, I think it really depends on the heat treatment, geometry, use etc. I've used very bad examples of white 2, but also good ones that get sharp very easily and don't and have an ok edge retention. Also, I think white 2 might make most sense for traditional Japanese single bevel knives. That being sad, the availability of steels, habit and knowledge clearly play a big role. At least in Sakai, there hasn't really been a demand for other steels than the ones that have been used for a long time so not much reason for the blacksmiths to search for alternatives and experiment with them. But with recent developments with Hitachi Metals, it seems that the steels could be no longer available in the future, so some people in the industry have started thinking about possible solutions like cooperating with makers in Niigata Sanjo and Takefu, or importing steels from abroad as a last resort. It might lead to people learning a bit more about the different kinds of steels that are available now, which would be good I think.
> 
> 
> That seems to be very very different with the grinding wheels commonly used in Japan that are very sensitive to slight changes in hardness from what I hear. White 2 is much easier and faster to grind than e.g. white 1 or blue steels, so basically all sharpeners like white 2 best.



Very interesting. Would you mind expanding on the Hitachi developments? I'd very much like to know more.


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## timebard (Mar 12, 2022)

esoo said:


> Is the reactivity that bad on a Ashi shirogami monosteel?
> 
> I ask as I've always found (as a home cook) that the bad reactivity is the cladding and not really the core.



Just to add a conflicting data point to Dave's, I found my Ashi suji (also white 2 mono) to be no problem at all reactivity wise. It eventually built up a great patina but it was less reactive getting there than any iron clad I've used and pretty comparable to other carbon monosteels.

To the original question, yeah, I agree. White #2 is great for budget knives and as a first decent knife to practice sharpening skills. When you're just learning how to sharpen poor edge retention is kind of a feature, not a bug. I also don't have any problem with it for something like a suji used at home, since it won't get used often enough for retention to matter much. But I mostly don't look at white #2 gyutos anymore.


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## EShin (Mar 12, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Very interesting. Would you mind expanding on the Hitachi developments? I'd very much like to know more.


Hitachi sold its metal business to an American consortium last year and it's quite possible that the knife steel is discontinued because it hasn't really been much of a business but maybe more of a cultural activity. It seems that nobody really knows what is going to happen at this point but some of the younger people in Sakai are worrying.

Another point I forgot to mention above is that the lead time for orders for the Yasuki steel seems to be 3-6 months so that blacksmiths have to order rather large amounts in advance and storing space becomes a problem. For example, I know from Mr. Nakagawa who forges white 1/2, blue 1/2, silver 3, VG10 and SG2 (by far the most variety in Sakai) that it's impossible for him to experiment with other steels because he simply doesn't have the space, so that's another factor that doesn't encourage people to look at other steels.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 12, 2022)

EShin said:


> Hitachi sold its metal business to an American consortium last year and it's quite possible that the knife steel is discontinued because it hasn't really been much of a business but maybe more of a cultural activity. It seems that nobody really knows what is going to happen at this point but some of the younger people in Sakai are worrying.
> 
> Another point I forgot to mention above is that the lead time for orders for the Yasuki steel seems to be 3-6 months so that blacksmiths have to order rather large amounts in advance and storing space becomes a problem. For example, I know from Mr. Nakagawa who forges white 1/2, blue 1/2, silver 3, VG10 and SG2 (by far the most variety in Sakai) that it's impossible for him to experiment with other steels because he simply doesn't have the space, so that's another factor that doesn't encourage people to look at other steels.



Excellent insight. Thank you.


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## Jason183 (Mar 12, 2022)

White steel doesn’t have very pronounced toothieness cutting feel compared to liked Aogami Super. Toothieness edge stays sharper longer on cutting something liked tomato, peppers( slippery skins). White steel IME is better at slicing sashimi. Especially cutting Toro, you don’t want too much toothieness on the cutting edge.


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## Matt Jacobs (Mar 12, 2022)

I've gotten rid of anything I owned in white. To me AEB-L gets just as sharp just as easy but holds a way better edge and is stainless. Don't get me wrong I love carbon steel and own a ton of different steels. I also like to sharpen. I don't like to sharpen a home knife weekly though and I prefer pretty much all other carbons to white. I wouldn't turn down the right shirogami but it would have to be cheep and I would want it stainless clad. Iron clad shirogami is a no go for me. Sorry Mazaki, love your knives but make it in AO Super please at the same price.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Mar 12, 2022)

good shirogami is good
i sharpen weekly anyway, takes <3 minutes to bring back an edge going 1k => 4k
i like sharpening and shiro ko is fun to sharpen

TF, Jiro, tsukasa hinoura, genkai masakuni - all excellent shirogami


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## MSicardCutlery (Mar 12, 2022)

It might be worth taking a look at Larrin Thomas' charts and pictures that include white and blue steels, (among many others). As far as I can tell, based on the data on that site, and I fully admit I may be overlooking something, it appears that white steel is no better than 1095 or W1, and that 52100 outperforms Blue Super in every respect at the same hardness level. 

I think much of their prevalence probably comes from those being domestically produced steels with broad availability there, as such it has become something of a standard. That isn't to say that it isn't a very good steel for the job, but there are North American equivalents, and other simple steels that will out perform it. It's also possible that the Japanese have their own equivalents or superiors to a steel like 52100, but it isn't in common use because there has not been a demand for it. 

I also can't rule out the possibility that the Japanese steels might take a keener edge than the North American ones, but if they do the question remains as to whether or not it is a consequential difference, or just a superfluous one.


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## Jovidah (Mar 12, 2022)

esoo said:


> My.one quality shirogami 2 knife (a Kono FM) I thought was a bit of a dud. It went "sharp, sharp, super dull" in a manner I didn't like and I found to be a PITA to sharpen.
> 
> My one shirogami 1 knife (a Kono FM) has been exceptional. Easy to sharpen and has stayed sharp for longer than expected.


Yeah the 'sharp sharp sharp, dull' experience is here too. Compared to more alloyed steels that have a rather linear dropoff and retain at least a 'usable' edge for longer.


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## PappaG (Mar 12, 2022)

Not sure what this post is about  . However if you took shirogami knives out of the picture, I would not likely have entered this "hobby"; would not have become obsessed with sharpening and took a deep dive down the rabbit hole. Said differently if I came to this site a few years ago and it was recommended that I purchase and learn to sharpen on expensive/fancy high end stainless knives..., I don't think I would have taken the jump. 

Now if this is about learning, and moving beyond white, I get it. But if you take Shirogami out of the picture, I don't know....


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 12, 2022)

PappaG said:


> Not sure what this post is about  . However if you took shirogami knives out of the picture, I would not likely have entered this "hobby"; would not have become obsessed with sharpening and took a deep dive down the rabbit hole. Said differently if I came to this site a few years ago and it was recommended that I purchase and learn to sharpen on expensive/fancy high end stainless knives..., I don't think I would have taken the jump.
> 
> Now if this is about learning, and moving beyond white, I get it. But if you take Shirogami out of the picture, I don't know....



No doubt that's a good point. I was already into sharpening and had been playing with high-alloy steels when I got serious about kitchen cutlery. That said, still had a lot to learn and still do but yeah, I can absolutely understand white steels being a gateway drug just like 420HC, BD1, VG10, 12C27 and so many others are in the pocket knife world.


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## blokey (Mar 14, 2022)

White #1 can be really good, Tanaka, TF and Kato all can treat it to on par with other higher end steel. White #2 on the other hand is a little tricky, different craftsmen can have varying result, I am happy with my Wakui, but that said I did not pay much for it.


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## bahamaroot (Mar 14, 2022)

I've moved beyond Shirogami, just doesn't do anything for me anymore. I only keep knives like my KS because it's a classic, the steel performance sucks.


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## HappyamateurDK (Mar 15, 2022)

blokey said:


> White #1 can be really good, Tanaka, TF and Kato all can treat it to on par with other higher end steel. White #2 on the other hand is a little tricky, different craftsmen can have varying result, I am happy with my Wakui, but that said I did not pay much for it.



I own one knife in white#1. A Matsubara gyuto. It is one of my favourite knives. Very easy to sharpen. Hold an edge pretty good. And is way way less prone to micro chipping then some of my other carbons that are mainly AS and blue#2. Even reactivity is easy to deal with. Compared to my other carbons.


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## Delat (Mar 15, 2022)

blokey said:


> White #1 can be really good, Tanaka, TF and Kato all can treat it to on par with other higher end steel. White #2 on the other hand is a little tricky, different craftsmen can have varying result, I am happy with my Wakui, but that said I did not pay much for it.



Agree, I typically avoid shirogami but wanted to try out a nakiri and the wakui white#2 stainless-clad for around $200 is a heck of a value. So far I’m loving the little thing, although my wife insists on calling it a little cleaver and using it as such. It’s held up surprisingly well to the abuse so far.


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## SirCutAlot (Mar 15, 2022)

It should be all about heat treatment. I once compared my former Togashi Blue 2 Gyuto (a very pricey one) with a Wat Standart in Shiro 2... The Wat had a way better retention. 

SirCutALot


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## Bodine (Mar 15, 2022)

I am a blue guy, I had a Kono fm white#1 for a short time. Sharpened quickly, easily and got scary sharp. Edge retention was less than what I like, and was reactive as heck.
I will stick with my blues.


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## ethompson (Mar 15, 2022)

Provided they were heat treated competently, I think most simple carbons behave similarly enough at any given hardness that steel choice isn't really a deciding factor for me. There are some differences that can be parsed out when pushed to the extremes - which, hey, is half the fun of any hobbyist pursuit - but I think writing off a whole family of steels is silly as it limits your options. Guess that makes me silly since I don't do stainless.... hmmm


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## MSicardCutlery (Mar 15, 2022)

This is interesting reading

Testing the Edge Retention of 48 Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds


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## Bico Doce (Mar 15, 2022)

MSicardCutlery said:


> This is interesting reading
> 
> Testing the Edge Retention of 48 Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds


Boo! False advertising. I looked thru the entire article for Shirogami and it wasn't listed anywhere but the comments, lol.

Seriously, good article. Thanks for adding it here.


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## MSicardCutlery (Mar 15, 2022)

Damn, I thought for sure white steel was on that list. At least it has Blue Super though. 

And oh, the comments on that site sometimes...Larrin is in the habit of killing many a sacred cow with his research. Anyways, it probably safe to assume that Shirogami scores under blue super and above O1 on that chart.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 15, 2022)

White 1 should be in line with 26C3 which in turn adjusted for hardness is in line with AS. That is one of the most important parts of what that data shows. Adjusting for hardness all of the low alloy steels have very similar levels of wear resistance. Based on the data O1, 26C3, V-toku2, blue super and 1.2562 would all have the same wear resistance if heat treated to the same hardness.

Note: Just realized @MSicardCutlery basically said this above


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## bahamaroot (Mar 15, 2022)

ethompson said:


> ...I think writing off a whole family of steels is silly as it limits your options...


Maybe in the past but there are so many makers and different steels now you're not going to miss anything by writing off one steel like Shirogami.


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## Bico Doce (Mar 15, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> White 1 should be in line with 26C3 which in turn adjusted for hardness is in line with AS. That is one of the most important parts of what that data shows. Adjusting for hardness all of the low alloy steels have very similar levels of wear resistance. Based on the data O1, 26C3, V-toku2, blue super and 1.2562 would all have the same wear resistance if heat treated to the same hardness.
> 
> Note: Just realized @MSicardCutlery basically said this above


Re-reading the article has me wondering why would I want AS. The carbides are NOT contributing to wear resistance but makes the knife more brittle? Just seems like it's a step down from Aogami.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 15, 2022)

Bico Doce said:


> Re-reading the article has me wondering why would I want AS. The carbides are NOT contributing to wear resistance but makes the knife more brittle? Just seems like it's a step down from Aogami.



Higher attainable hardness is the only reason I can think of. The MC carbides likely do contribute to wear resistance but between their very low volume (<2%), non-homogeneous nature, and the fact that they are replacing a slightly larger volume of Iron carbides, it seems like the effect is negligible. To bring it back to the OP's topic I think the other interesting question would be why would you pick 26C3 (White #1) over Vtoku-2 (or aogami 2) given that the latter has the same wear resistance and greater toughness. (Yes the Aogami series of steels likely have better toughness than their same # Shiro steel assuming good HT of course).


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## sackhoi (Mar 15, 2022)

My TF Nashiji actually got a great balance between sharpness and edge retention even for work, also it's pretty easy to retouch it to tip top shape for something like pepper or tomato. It has like terrible handle but actually grew on me because some of the harder knife I have, while retaining the functioning edge well, it just slips on pepper/tomato skin and it's pretty hard to get those to high level sharpness mid-shift


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## Barmoley (Mar 15, 2022)

I generally agree with most that white class steels are some of the worst knife steels one could pick for a knife. Relatively low toughness, low wear resistance and absolutely no corrosion resistance. What goes for these steels is relative ease of manufacturing and grinding/sharpening and ability to show off killer hamon. Having said that we have to put things in perspective. Larrin discussed in his articles that the testing medium being sand which is harder than iron carbide might cause all low alloy steels to fall into the same, indistinguishable category. It is conceivable that given a different medium there would be more of a differential. High alloy steels would still do much, much better, but it is possible that at least we would see a difference between white, blue, super, etc steels. The other side of it is toughness, even If we assume that all these steels have similar wear resistance, tougher steels would do better assuming similar hardness can be achieved with higher toughness. Higher toughness would allow more acute edges without chipping and this would increase edge holding significantly. So something like 52100 is clearly better than any of the white steels. It is also important to know how the edges dull in someone’s use, is it due to wear, or chipping or bending and deforming. If you have to go with a low alloy steel, picking a steel that has a higher toughness at a given hardness seems like a good idea, assuming they can get to similar hardness.

As far as 1.2562 or aogami super not doing anything better than white steel, take a look at this article where Larrin tested 1.2562 refined by Marco Guldimann. This significantly improved 1.2562 toughness. I don’t know if same can be done to blue super, but in this case 1.2562 would perform better than white.

Ease of sharpening is probably why many people like white steels here. With correct tools any steel used in knives can get very sharp, but if someone likes to sharpen white steels provide many opportunities to do so.

The main problem is that a good kitchen knife is so much more than the steel used to make it. Sometimes we just don’t get a choice if a maker we like doesn’t use the steel we like. In that case going with a good knife is much more important than going with a superior steel. Fortunately, we have many choices these days.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 15, 2022)

@Barmoley All excellent points I just wanted to expand a bit on the ideas because bringing this wear resistance discussion out of controlled testing and into the real world things look a tiny bit better for White class steels and considerably more bleak for AS and 1.2562 (the other tungsten alloy steels have a decent toughness boost which helps them in comparison to the white class steels).



Barmoley said:


> Larrin discussed in his articles that the testing medium being sand which is harder than iron carbide might cause all low alloy steels to fall into the same, indistinguishable category. It is conceivable that given a different medium there would be more of a differential.





Barmoley said:


> but it is possible that at least we would see a difference between white, blue, super, etc steels.



The testing abrasive used is a very common abrasive in food although in higher volumes.

As far as a softer abrasive is concerned I would expect to see steel with higher cementite volumes perform better. While the tungsten low alloy steels would benefit less due to lower volumes of cementite. If anything it's possible that you would start to see something like 26c3 outperform AS in terms of wear resistance. You might even see 26C3 bounce up to the same level as 52100 although this somewhat depends on the nature of the relationship between abrasive and carbide hardness (something talked about extensively in sharpening). 

The only scenario I could see the tungsten alloy steels perform better is if the test moved to a harder abrasive where the cementite became even less relevant. But even then the difference would be marginal the low alloy tungsten steels have MC carbide volumes of 2% or so max. This is rather interesting with apex ultra coming down the line as it seems that steel gets its wear resistance in a similar fashion to 52100 (through enrichment of the cementite) rather then any sort of MC carbide formation.



Barmoley said:


> Fortunately, we have many choices these days.



I think in some ways this is the most important part. Less so with Japanese makers (but who knows with the Hitachi news) if there is more demand for different steels we will likely start to see makers move to alloys close to 52100 and less of super simple steels (as they have negligible cost and working differences). So hopefully the trend of seeing more good knives in superior steel continues!


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## Barmoley (Mar 15, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> @Barmoley All excellent points I just wanted to expand a bit on the ideas because bringing this wear resistance discussion out of controlled testing and into the real world things look a tiny bit better for White class steels and considerably more bleak for AS and 1.2562 (the other tungsten alloy steels have a decent toughness boost which helps them in comparison to the white class steels).
> 
> The testing abrasive used is a very common abrasive in food although in higher volumes.
> 
> ...



Yes silica is very common in food and in general CATRA tests seem to correlate well with rope cutting tests for example, where silica too is common. I am not saying the results would be different or would not reverse as you suggest, but without more testing in a different medium it is hard to say how it will go. We can theorize of course and what you say makes sense. Anecdotally, 1.2562 and AS have better edge retention than white steels when cutting food, but this could be simply due to them being usually harder and tougher at high hardness. I suspect this is the case, but I don't have any solid data to back up these claims.

Attributing performance to steel is very difficult when dealing with kitchen knives. For one geometry and sharpening makes a huge difference and for another we are dealing with humans using the knives. We read all the time someone claiming that they don't see a difference in edge holding between low alloy and high alloy steels, just to then find out that less than ideal abrasives were used to sharpen high alloy steels. People also claim all sorts of angles and geometries when sharpening free hand in addition to claiming hardness that hasn't actually been tested.

My main point is that knife design is more important than the choice of steel beyond some minimum level of good enough. Everything else being equal high alloy steels within reason will make a better knife than low alloy steels, ease of sharpening or thinning notwithstanding. It would be even more so if users or makers tuned edge geometry to the steel. Another problem of course is cost and difficulty of manufacture and this is probably why we see more knives made in lower alloy steels. I hope that if ApexUltra turns out to be what it promises and that it will become the base lower alloy steel at least for western makers and that MagnaCut becomes base stainless. These 2 plus laminates with them would significantly improve general knife performance.


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## M1k3 (Mar 15, 2022)

I can definitely see an edge retention difference between 52100 and Z-wear in a professional setting.


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## MSicardCutlery (Mar 15, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> I hope that if ApexUltra turns out to be what it promises that it will become the base lower alloy steel at least for western makers and that MagnaCut becomes base stainless. These 2 plus laminates with them would significantly improve general knife performance.



If only, if only. It will take some time to see what demand does to the price, but at the moment a bar 3/32"x2" of MagnaCut runs about $55 U.S/foot. Whereas a 3 foot bar in the same thickness and width would be about 46$ in Nitro-V, 34$ in AEB-L, 69$ in CPM-M4, and 92$ in S90V. And then there's the difficulty of grinding. There's no denying it's a remarkable steel, but whether the cost to benefit ratio is significant enough for it to catch on, and transition from a high performance novelty to a standard material, is something that only time will tell. 

ApexUltra at 45 Euro (49$ U.S) to pre-order a 5mmx50mmx500mm bar, (which works out to about 16$/foot if you account for the difference in thickness,) is much closer in price to more common western steels. I have a feeling that the only problem ApexUltra will have, is whether the mill can keep up with demand.

I'd love to get my hands on both at some point and give them a try.


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## Barmoley (Mar 15, 2022)

MSicardCutlery said:


> If only, if only. It will take some time to see what demand does to the price, but at the moment a bar 3/32"x2" of MagnaCut runs about $55 U.S/foot. Whereas a 3 foot bar in the same thickness and width would be about 46$ in Nitro-V, 34$ in AEB-L, 69$ in CPM-M4, and 92$ in S90V. And then there's the difficulty of grinding. There's no denying it's a remarkable steel, but whether the cost to benefit ratio is significant enough for it to catch on, and transition from a high performance novelty to a standard material, is something that only time will tell.
> 
> ApexUltra at 45 Euro (49$ U.S) to pre-order a 5mmx50mmx500mm bar, (which works out to about 16$/foot if you account for the difference in thickness,) is much closer in price to more common western steels. I have a feeling that the only problem ApexUltra will have, is whether the mill can keep up with demand.
> 
> I'd love to get my hands on both at some point and give them a try.


I hope this is temporary and prices will stabilize to be inline with other steels in the same class. Grinding of MagnaCut should also be similar to steels in the same class. Sharpening seems easier with MagnaCut then zwear for example. The difference is minor, but seems to be there. Also, I’ve read reports that MagnaCut is somewhat easier to grind compared to stainless in the same class. It won’t be as easy as AEB-L, that’s for sure. For low alloy I really like 52100, but ApexUltra promises to be even better. Fingers crossed, exciting times for steel nerds.


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## Justinv (Mar 16, 2022)

I don’t get concern for steel cost. Its labor thats expensive for handmade products. Kamon just made like 40 with none lost to defects. I get that material cost matters if there are losses or if you have to stock inventory for significant time. However if you buy on demand and losses are low then the difference in $15 steel and $50 steel is $35 on say a $500 product. Harder steel takes more labor so thats a valid difference. I’m referring to the custom producers that are currently using this new stuff, not retailers that obviously add their own markup.


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## M1k3 (Mar 16, 2022)

Justinv said:


> I don’t get concern for steel cost. Its labor thats expensive for handmade products. Kamon just made like 40 with none lost to defects. I get that material cost matters if there are losses or if you have to stock inventory for significant time. However if you buy on demand and losses are low then the difference in $15 steel and $50 steel is $35 on say a $500 product. Harder steel takes more labor so thats a valid difference. I’m referring to the custom producers that are currently using this new stuff, not retailers that obviously add their own markup.


Higher carbide steel, which is usually more expensive, also wears belts out. Which takes longer also. Which means more time AND energy spent on it. And the need for a kiln. And replacement parts. And then there's cryo. And finishing work takes longer also. Just additional costs piling on...


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 16, 2022)

I don't want to pull this thread further off-topic but this is worth adding: MagnaCut will always be more expensive then non-PM steels and even some PM steels like CPM-M4 which are produced in {relatively) large quantities for industrial use. NioMax is much more likely to become a standard stainless because it is conventionally produced. Although it has the same issues with difficulty in finishing as MagnaCut. From my own experience and talking to other makers the cost of Making a MagnaCut knife is much higher. Remember if it takes 2 extra hrs to hand sand and thin and another hrs on the grinder with labor costs alone that's another $90-180. Not to mention the increased abrasive costs. I think it is unlikely MagnaCut becomes a standard stainless for anyone who doesn't do belt finishes. Much more likely that we see more CPM154 (which I would be all for!).

Bringing it back to low alloy steels the issue with the white class steels is that it seems pretty much any option is a better choice other than AS. So really it would just be nice if makers switched to steels that are similarly easy to finish like A2 when the goal isn't to make a honyaki blade.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 16, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> And the need for a kiln.



I would argue that you need a HT oven for any steel especially if you are forging and especially if you use white class steel.


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## Eloh (Mar 16, 2022)

Barmoley made some great points. I have to add that from some extensive testing in a pro environment with guided sharpening with tons of different knives/steels it seems there is a bigger gap between no alloyed steels and your typical tungsten alloyed tool steels (1.2442/AS etc) and less of a gap between those tungsten alloyed steels and hss compared to larrins catra data.

Of course thats for my personal use case with my personal sharping angle etc. Im not entirely sure what constitutes this difference but it seems clear that catra does not represent the specific use of a kitchen knife ideally, be it the cutting medium or the fact that other modes of failure play a bigger role xompared to catra


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## jwthaparc (Mar 16, 2022)

As a certified steel snob. Shirogami really doesn't have any appeal to me at all. Whether its 1 2 or 3. Aogami is a much better choice if you really want to go with a Japanese carbon steel. I hate seeing my knives getting sharpened away. Especially if I spent good money on them.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 16, 2022)

Eloh said:


> m not entirely sure what constitutes this difference but it seems clear that catra does not represent the specific use of a kitchen knife ideally, be it the cutting medium or the fact that other modes of failure play a bigger role xompared to catra



I have seen very little evidence or a proposed mechanism that would mean CATRA is not a representative test of wear resistance in kitchen knives. I am inclined to think that the dominant form of edge wear changes based on the steel and your technique. In your case, you might find AS has much better edge retention because your technique and setup required higher edge toughness and at some small scale your Shiro knives are microchipping. I'm not saying that is definitely the mechanism just an example. Based on the structures of the steels it is really not a surprise that the tungsten low alloy steels have very little if any improvement to wear resistance 0.5-2% volume of carbide is really not a lot.


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## Eloh (Mar 16, 2022)

I think thats part of what i meant too. Its a bit hard to express my thoughts since this is a fairly complex topic and my english is lackluster.

Toughness is probably one factor, since catra methodology is really indifferent in this regard since its a linear movement wich is good to reduce variables of course.
But at the end that just means that other modes of failure or another xombination of factors becomes more important than 'edge retention' for kitchen use, chipping due to lateral stress, heavy board contact etc
Thats why i said, cutting raw meat without board contact works really well with these steels... 

From my experience and different other people who have gathered data, its pretty clear that the catra test doesnt relate that well to kitchen knife use. Also it would be very hard or next to impossible to conduct a proper experiment to show exactly that....


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## Dan- (Mar 16, 2022)

HDPE is a very consistent material commonly used for cutting boards. Why couldn't they devise a test with a machine that pull cut, tap chop, and push cut into HDPE?


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## Justinv (Mar 16, 2022)

I have a couple more comments. First on the comments on magnacut and such there is a reason why san-mai exists to improve grinding and toughness. Yet western makers are often using monosteel. Is there no source for factory made prelaminated bars that are the norm in Japan? Shouldn’t this be both cheaper and less labor for higher carbide steels? I have never heard of soft stainless cladded 52100 but I’d give it a try. I’ve never heard of monosteel VG10, ZDP189, SG2, or any japanese powdered steel but monosteel is discussed for magnacut, s35vn, M390, etc.

Pricing is much higher in 2022. I get people wanting cheap options but those aren’t what is typically discussed here. It seems we can improve on white 2 and expect excellent and consistent HT at current prices. I’m encouraged by larrins new steels.


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## blokey (Mar 16, 2022)

Justinv said:


> I have a couple more comments. First on the comments on magnacut and such there is a reason why san-mai exists to improve grinding and toughness. Yet western makers are often using monosteel. Is there no source for factory made prelaminated bars that are the norm in Japan? Shouldn’t this be both cheaper and less labor for higher carbide steels? I have never heard of soft stainless cladded 52100 but I’d give it a try. I’ve never heard of monosteel VG10, ZDP189, SG2, or any japanese powdered steel but monosteel is discussed for magnacut, s35vn, M390, etc.
> 
> Pricing is much higher in 2022. I get people wanting cheap options but those aren’t what is typically discussed here. It seems we can improve on white 2 and expect excellent and consistent HT at current prices. I’m encouraged by larrins new steels.


Shi.Han does stainless clad 52100, but he makes the bar stock by himself. There is actually pure VG10 blade like this, and monosteel aus-10 is pretty common. I think there is just not huge market in US for manufacturers to do per-laminated stock.









Hitohira FJ 240mm Gyuto VG10 Ho


Hand ground VG10 mono steel with a nice taper and convex hamaguri grind. This fine grind makes for smooth cutting and excellent food release with a long edge life and excellent stainless property. VG10 can be more work to sharpen as they get sharpened down but that will take quite some time as...




bernalcutlery.com









Stainless Clad San-Mai — shi.han fine knives







www.shihanfineknives.com


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## esoo (Mar 16, 2022)

Justinv said:


> I have never heard of soft stainless cladded 52100 but I’d give it a try.











Stainless Clad Gyuto Knives — shi.han fine knives


Stainless Clad Gyuto Knives with 52100 carbon steel blades forged from scratch. The handles and edge guards are Shou Sugiban style burnt white Ash.




www.shihanfineknives.com


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## Justinv (Mar 16, 2022)

esoo said:


> Stainless Clad Gyuto Knives — shi.han fine knives
> 
> 
> Stainless Clad Gyuto Knives with 52100 carbon steel blades forged from scratch. The handles and edge guards are Shou Sugiban style burnt white Ash.
> ...



Thanks. Can I presume it will outperform TF mabs or is that going to blow up this thread?


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## MSicardCutlery (Mar 16, 2022)

Justinv said:


> Is there no source for factory made prelaminated bars that are the norm in Japan? Shouldn’t this be both cheaper and less labor for higher carbide steels? I have never heard of soft stainless cladded 52100 but I’d give it a try. I’ve never heard of monosteel VG10, ZDP189, SG2, or any japanese powdered steel but monosteel is discussed for magnacut, s35vn, M390, etc.




There's only one source prelaminated bars of carbon clad stainless in the U.S that I know of, and it's 416 and 52100, and currently only available in 1/4" thick bars. Forging laminated stainless is tricky, and needs to be done very slowly and carefully, compared to carbon steel billets anyways. A rolling mill would be ideal. There's no fixing a delamination in a billet that includes stainless, the chromium oxides are basically flux proof, and the billet has to be sealed just to set the weld initially. With the high alloy steels it's even worse. I remember reading about stainless clad M4 at some point, and IIRC the forging window is about 400F degrees wide, and as soon as forging is complete it has to be put through an annealing cycle. I suspect that if just left to air cool, that as it hardens it would sheer itself apart from the stresses imparted during forging. 

For an individual maker to produce their own stainless clad, well, with all the preparatory work and then the drawing, I don't see it being cheaper overall than burning the extra belts on a wear resistant monosteel blade, just perhaps a little more convenient to grind, and that it fills a niche in the market. That isn't to say I have anything against stainless clad, just I think if done as a savings measure that it's a case of diminishing returns. If manufactured at a factory scale on the other hand, well, that could change things.


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## ethompson (Mar 16, 2022)

Justinv said:


> Thanks. Can I presume it will outperform TF mabs or is that going to blow up this thread?


Ah, the classic _reductio ad TF _(every thread is eventually a TF thread)! Can't claim to have compared the two, but my ShiHan has by far and away the most consistent grind I've ever seen. A flawless, no low spot, thin convex grind. I've also had great experiences with 52100 and have nothing against this steel.


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## ethompson (Mar 16, 2022)

Wrought iron clad magnacut is something I'd be very, very interested in. The mullet of the san-mai knife world - business at the edge, party on the cladding.


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## M1k3 (Mar 16, 2022)

ethompson said:


> Wrought iron clad magnacut is something I'd be very, very interested in. The mullet of the san-mai knife world - business at the edge, party on the cladding.


@Carl Kotte


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## Carl Kotte (Mar 17, 2022)

ethompson said:


> Wrought iron clad magnacut is something I'd be very, very interested in. The mullet of the san-mai knife world - business at the edge, party on the cladding.


The future!!!


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## Alex Horn (Mar 17, 2022)

I'll offer another perspective, as someone who has made a relatively large amount of knives in white steel.

White steel takes a great edge, yes, but that's about it from an actual user's perspective. It is easy to sharpen, but abrades away almost too fast. I've seen knives a few months old come in for tune ups that lost 1/4" of height because they needed constant sharpening. 

What's appealing about it from a maker's perspective is how easy it is to manufacture. It's one of the easiest steels to forge and grind, especially when you have pre-laminated stainless or soft damascus clad bar stock. Once you know how and have the right tools, you can absolutely crank out knives in this steel. So, how do you make money on a steel that's easy to produce, but only has one redeeming quality? You market the ever-loving crap out of that one quality.

White steel has this grandiose reputation because of its "legendary" sharpness. Then you can say it's "easy to sharpen" and "holds and edge for a long time", but those are just words. Compared to high alloy steels it's easy to sharpen. Compared to Wusthof it holds an edge longer, sure. It's been marketed so well that a lot of people blindly swear by it on reputation alone. And as a lot of previous posts have shown, there are plenty of comparable or better options easily available, generally at cheaper options. 

After making well over 1000 knives out of white steel, I don't think I'll ever touch the stuff again.


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## adam92 (Mar 17, 2022)

_in the professional kitchen I tried to avoid white steel gyuto, but I prefer white steel yanagiba, as not much board contact, white steel honyaki for yanagiba is my favourite. _


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## stringer (Mar 17, 2022)

Eloh said:


> Thats why i said, cutting raw meat without board contact works really well with these steels...





adam92 said:


> _in the professional kitchen I tried to avoid white steel gyuto, but I prefer white steel yanagiba, as not much board contact, white steel honyaki for yanagiba is my favourite. _



I have tried a couple white steel knives. The only one I've kept is my Ashi Ginga Suji. No board contact white steel stays sharp forever (by that I mean that the knife gets sharpened because I'm bored long before it gets sharpened because it "needs it.")


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## adam92 (Mar 17, 2022)

stringer said:


> I have tried a couple white steel knives. The only one I've kept is my Ashi Ginga Suji. No board contact white steel stays sharp forever (by that I mean that the knife gets sharpened because I'm bored long before it gets sharpened because it "needs it.")


Yes you're right, for suji it's make sense because no much board contact, but for gyuto white steel seems like lose my interest, I sold my Ashi Ginga White steel gyuto because of this reason as well, it get super sharp, but lose the sharpness fairly quick.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 17, 2022)

Justinv said:


> I have a couple more comments. First on the comments on magnacut and such there is a reason why san-mai exists to improve grinding and toughness. Yet western makers are often using monosteel. Is there no source for factory made prelaminated bars that are the norm in Japan? Shouldn’t this be both cheaper and less labor for higher carbide steels? I have never heard of soft stainless cladded 52100 but I’d give it a try. I’ve never heard of monosteel VG10, ZDP189, SG2, or any japanese powdered steel but monosteel is discussed for magnacut, s35vn, M390, etc.
> 
> Pricing is much higher in 2022. I get people wanting cheap options but those aren’t what is typically discussed here. It seems we can improve on white 2 and expect excellent and consistent HT at current prices. I’m encouraged by larrins new steels.



Clad high alloy steels are much more common in Japan because there is more demand for clad blades for aesthetic reasons. So the steel can be made at a larger scale where temperatures and atmosphere contact can be highly controlled. At a smaller scale, it is quite difficult to get clean welds and you are somewhat limited in cladding materials. For example, wrought iron cladding is a no-go for most of these steels because the cladding needs to be forged hot but the core steels exhibit hot shortness (crumple when forged to hot). As people have pointed out, especially for expensive steel it certainly has some benefits you might be seeing more of it in the not too distant future .

As a side note, the first release of NioMax was in the form of stainless clad billets.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 17, 2022)

Dan- said:


> HDPE is a very consistent material commonly used for cutting boards. Why couldn't they devise a test with a machine that pull cut, tap chop, and push cut into HDPE?



Assuming you control for geometry this would simply be a test of edge strength and correlate directly with hardness.


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## SirCutAlot (Mar 17, 2022)

So shiro is out of date ,what about other low alloy steels like 1095/SC145/SC125/135Cr and stuff like that. They are all in the same edge retention ballbark like shirogami.

SirCutALot


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 17, 2022)

SirCutAlot said:


> So shiro is out of date ,what about other low alloy steels like 1095/SC145/SC125/135Cr and stuff like that. They are all in the same edge retention ballbark like shirogami.
> 
> SirCutALot



At least for me when I say white class steels I mean ~1%C+ very low alloy steels. So yes all those these are out of date as well imo.


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## SirCutAlot (Mar 17, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> At least for me when I say white class steels I mean ~1%C+ very low alloy steels. So yes all those these are out of date as well imo.


Ok, and what about steel like Aogami 1/2, 1.2519, 1.2442 , because i don`t think their edge retention ist that much better. So maybe the knifes cut 2 times more stuff like the other mentioned low alloy steel`s. 

In my business (may depend on what you have to cut) i have to resharpen thes "low" tungsten alloyed steels once a day, knifes out of SC125/Shiro etc. maybe two times in half the time.. So no advantage for me. I guess any chef here got more then one gyuto at his working place. 

I do my sharpening with as fine stones as possible/useful, so Chosera 3/5k, Coticule and stuff like this, so i can not imagine "sharpening away a knife". This is sad, and may be a cause of bad sharpening habbits more then used steel ?

SirCutALot


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## kpham12 (Mar 17, 2022)

I’ve read a couple articles/interviews with Japanese smiths where a lot of them say they like working with shirogami because, and I’m paraphrasing here, it’s “like a blank canvas” and it’s the most commercially available steel that’s closest to old sword steel/tamahagane so it’s a bit of a tradition thing as well. So that may contribute to its popularity in Japanese knives.

Also, for the losing heel height issue, I think a lot of people can accidentally oversharpen their knives, especially if they don’t thin as they go or at least intermittently. I’ve seen some intro level “how to sharpen” vids where people are spending so much time on a 1000ish grit stone and I’m thinking “you should’ve had a burr like 5 minutes ago, why are you still sharpening?”

I’ve found if I keep my shirogami knives (any of my knives, really) very thin behind the edge, stropping on cardboard brings back the edge easily enough, then maybe just a light pass on a high grit stone or a couple swipes on a mid grit JNAT gives you back a fresh edge because so little metal needs to be removed and you won’t lose any appreciable amount of heel height for a long time.

But I think shirogami is really for a) tasks that don’t involve much board contact like stated above and b) those people who want that peak, fresh off the stones sharpness as often as possible because it’s so easy to maintain at that level. Something like R2 or even blue super will hold and initial edge longer, but takes just a bit more work to bring back.

Although I definitely get why people avoid shirogami. If I have to go through a box of oranges/citrus or tomatoes or maybe even bell peppers, I’m reaching for R2 or SLD or a nice VG-10 before shirogami.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 17, 2022)

@SirCutAlot Im not quite sure what you are getting at but as we discussed before in the thread those steels don't offer more wear resistance but they do often offer more toughness (for a given HRC) are quite often HT'd a bit harder which can help with edge retention. Maybe its different for you but I can't tell the difference between how long it takes to sharpen Aogami 2 and the white class steels.


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## SirCutAlot (Mar 17, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> @SirCutAlot Im not quite sure what you are getting at but as we discussed before in the thread those steels don't offer more wear resistance but they do often offer more toughness (for a given HRC) are quite often HT'd a bit harder which can help with edge retention. Maybe its different for you but I can't tell the difference between how long it takes to sharpen Aogami 2 and the white class steels.



Sorry for my bad english, grown up in 5 different countrys, worked in even more  , i don`t even know if i got a native language.
If i get it right, your thougts are that higher alloyed steels are tougher ? because they might be heat treated harder ? 

SirCutALot


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 17, 2022)

SirCutAlot said:


> Sorry for my bad english, grown up in 5 different countrys, worked in even more  , i don`t even know if i got a native language.
> If i get it right, your thougts are that higher alloyed steels are tougher ? because they might be heat treated harder ?
> 
> SirCutALot



Not quite. The actual mechanisms are complicated but the testing done by @Larrin suggests that steels like V-toku 2(basically aogami 2) retain more ductility than white type steels at 62+ RC. 

My comments of them being heat treated to higher hardness are not related to this previous point but rather an observation of industry trends that can have an impact on the perceived edge retention of steel. For example, if everyone tried one steel at 64Rc and another at 60Rc they might observe that the first had been edge retention and attribute that to the steel rather than the hardness while in reality if both were the same hardness the second steel may have better edge retention.

I hope that clears things up.


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## Jason183 (Mar 17, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> I’ve read a couple articles/interviews with Japanese smiths where a lot of them say they like working with shirogami because, and I’m paraphrasing here, it’s “like a blank canvas” and it’s the most commercially available steel that’s closest to old sword steel/tamahagane so it’s a bit of a tradition thing as well. So that may contribute to its popularity in Japanese knives.
> 
> Also, for the losing heel height issue, I think a lot of people can accidentally oversharpen their knives, especially if they don’t thin as they go or at least intermittently. I’ve seen some intro level “how to sharpen” vids where people are spending so much time on a 1000ish grit stone and I’m thinking “you should’ve had a burr like 5 minutes ago, why are you still sharpening?”
> 
> ...


losing 1/4 of the blade height in few months do sound crazy. I normally sharpens my knives(blue2/SKD12 Gyuto)once a week. Except for my White #1 slicer, I only sharpened it once every few months cause I only using it for slicing Sashimi. Liked others have said, I probably won’t get a white steel knives if my work tasks is to cut few cases produce a day.


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## M1k3 (Mar 17, 2022)

With Blue steels in general, the low amount of alloys probably does more to keep carbide size in check, than helping edge retention. Maybe? @Troopah_Knives @Larrin


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## esoo (Mar 17, 2022)

In my experience, Blue 2 at 62HRC had much better edge retention than White 2 at 65HRC. It wasn't even close in my home kitchen.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 17, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> With Blue steels in general, the low amount of alloys probably does more to keep carbide size in check, than helping edge retention. Maybe? @Troopah_Knives @Larrin



Im going to keep this to Blue 2 and White 2 but it holds true for similar comparable steels.

Blue 2 is just White 2 +1.25% W and 0.35% Cr. There are a couple of mechanisms I can think of and each probably contributes a little. 

1. These white-type steels struggle with excessively high amounts of carbon that dissolve into the steel when it is heated before the quench which leads to a brittle structure called Plate Martensite. The tungsten ties up of the carbon in tungsten carbides which reduces the carbon in solution and (probably) reduces the amount of plate martensite formed.

2. Tungsten carbides dissolve at higher temps so depending on the heat treatment they could contribute by "pinning" the grain boundaries leading to finer grain size. Which in itself improves toughness and finer grain size may also have an effect on reducing the formation of plate martensite as was discussed in this article.

There may be other mechanisms that I don't know about or am not thinking of. 

To your second point. Yes, it seems like they don't contribute much to wear resistance but that isn't too surprising given that it is only a 2% volume and they are not evenly dispersed.


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## Larrin (Mar 17, 2022)

The low alloy content of the steels is for ease of forging and heat treating with traditional methods. But it also helps with keeping carbide size small without powder metallurgy.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Mar 17, 2022)

Larrin said:


> The low alloy content of the steels is for ease of forging and heat treating with traditional methods. But it also helps with keeping carbide size small without powder metallurgy.


Mr. Larrin sir please help
the forum is being mean to shirogami 
it's a good, simple little steel that does its best and doesn't deserve this dogpile of negativity


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## M1k3 (Mar 17, 2022)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Mr. Larrin sir please help
> the forum is being mean to shirogami
> it's a good, simple little steel that does its best and doesn't deserve this dogpile of negativity


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## kpham12 (Mar 17, 2022)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Mr. Larrin sir please help
> the forum is being mean to shirogami
> it's a good, simple little steel that does its best and doesn't deserve this dogpile of negativity


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## SirCutAlot (Mar 18, 2022)

funny.

So what about steels like 14C28N or maybe AEB-L ? Both got about the same edge retention and are not as fine to sharpen like Shirogami. 

I guess i have to find the failure in my sharpening technique. My sharpening mastermind always told me don`t go beyond 3k with the fine grained C steels. I prever 5-8k (naturals). 

If we say Shirogami is a "bad" steel, i am ok with this statement. But so many other steels are as "bad", and this makes me wonder.

SirCutALot


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 18, 2022)

@SirCutAlot I'm going to compare it to Shiro #1 because that is the steel we have the most data on 

AEB-L has much better wear resistance then Shiro 1, It has a much better balance of hardness to toughness than Shiro 1, it has a smaller volume of finer carbides then Shiro 1, and it is stainless.

So by every measurable metric, it is a better steel. I can't think of a plausible mechanism by which AEB-L would not get as sharp as Shiro but maybe people here have some ideas.

Something important to remember is that often people pretend that the Shiro class steels have no carbides but this is untrue these steels have carbide volumes ranging from 4-10% cementite that contributes little to wear resistance but does reduce toughness and probably reduces edge stability.


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## SirCutAlot (Mar 18, 2022)

@Troopah_Knives to clarify my thoughts: Shirogami steel has about the same Edge retention (given the "same" angle and finishing stone and also sharpness) as maybe AEB-L, and it don`t chips. At least in my kitchen. The only upside i see it is stainless. 



What i trying to say is that after this reading i can clearly say to myself a maybe 150 € Munetoshi after a good sharpening/thinnig session is as good as a maybe Raquin and all the other (not quite cheap knifemakers using steels like this) . This is my point. A good reason to choose "cheap" japanese knives in my point of view. 

SirCutALot


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## blokey (Mar 18, 2022)

SirCutAlot said:


> @Troopah_Knives to clarify my thoughts: Shirogami steel has about the same Edge retention (given the "same" angle and finishing stone and also sharpness) as maybe AEB-L, and it don`t chips. At least in my kitchen. The only upside i see it is stainless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From just personal experience AEB-L actually has better edge retention at the same hardness than shirogami, and the toughness seems to on pair if not better. That’s just my experience with Ashi/Gesshin Ginga tho.


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 18, 2022)

SirCutAlot said:


> @Troopah_Knives to clarify my thoughts: Shirogami steel has about the same Edge retention (given the "same" angle and finishing stone and also sharpness) as maybe AEB-L, and it don`t chips. At least in my kitchen. The only upside i see it is stainless.
> 
> SirCutALot



What I am talking about is what the actual controlled testing shows about these steels. Your observations are affected by different blade geometry, hardness levels, sharpening angles (free hand sharpening always has variability), possible edge fatgue, technique etc. Given all these uncontrolled variables it is hard to speak to your observation. I am simply saying that given the same knife with the same sharpening angle, hardness, and usage AEB-L will yield better performance on all fronts. Between different knives, geometry differences will dominate performance.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 18, 2022)

No one here is saying that shirogami is actually a "bad steel". Like someone forging a knife out of a railroad spike or something. 

My thoughts on it, as well as others I think, are that the steels used in knives have come a long way from when people just used 1095/1080, white #1/#2, etc. A perfectly acceptable knife can be made of these steels, and perform adequately for most jobs. 

Can you get better performance out of steels that have different alloying elements, production methods (powdered metallurgy processes), carbide volumes, etc.? Of course. 

Whether you notice those benefits is up to a lot of variables though much like @Troopah_Knives said. And heat treat can make a gigantic difference in a steels performance. Bigger than just the rockwell number.

With that said, a knife made of aebl for example, heat treated with edge stability in mind. Will most definitely out perform shirogami, in pretty much every way, and with a thin enough geometry. Really shouldn't be too noticeably harder to sharpen, than even the simplest carbon steels.


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## zizirex (Mar 18, 2022)

this thread makes me turn away from getting a Fujiyama FM W1.

dang.


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## BillHanna (Mar 18, 2022)

So which Rusty Boi is at the top of the heap?


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## inferno (Mar 18, 2022)

i also dislike white/1095/w1/all similar. i only have one knife left in white 2. and thats all i need imo.

good: 
easy to sharpen
gets sharp
can get a hamon
nice kasumi finish when clad in iron possible

bad:
not very tough
needs sharpening often (maybe too often)
rusts

its good for enthusiast/hobbyists that like to fiddle around with their knives often. 

personally i think steels like 52100 / 80crv2 / 15n20 etc are more useful/interesting as general use steels for kitchen knives. 
and they are about on par in ease/difficulty to manufacture.


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## inferno (Mar 18, 2022)

i like blue2 though. i love that steel.


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## Lars (Mar 18, 2022)

Munetoshi white steel is tough as old boots.


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## esoo (Mar 18, 2022)

zizirex said:


> this thread makes me turn away from getting a Fujiyama FM W1.
> 
> dang.



Don't. My FM W2 Gyuto was not that great. My FM W1 Nakiri is very good.


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## M1k3 (Mar 18, 2022)

BillHanna said:


> So which Rusty Boi is at the top of the heap?


52100 for simpler steels IMO.


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## Bico Doce (Mar 18, 2022)

esoo said:


> Don't. My FM W2 Gyuto was not that great. My FM W1 Nakiri is very good.


Too late. I just threw my Togashi Tosa white 1 honyaki in the trash


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## zizirex (Mar 18, 2022)

esoo said:


> Don't. My FM W2 Gyuto was not that great. My FM W1 Nakiri is very good.


So Should I get it or wait for blue 1(Impossible...)? LOL

Tanaka White 1 is really good, almost as good as TF HT Wise.


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## Barmoley (Mar 18, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> What I am talking about is what the actual controlled testing shows about these steels. Your observations are affected by different blade geometry, hardness levels, sharpening angles (free hand sharpening always has variability), possible edge fatgue, technique etc. Given all these uncontrolled variables it is hard to speak to your observation. I am simply saying that given the same knife with the same sharpening angle, hardness, and usage AEB-L will yield better performance on all fronts. Between different knives, geometry differences will dominate performance.


This is absolutely correct and why these ”steel” discussions never go anywhere. You can’t reasonably compare steels when you are comparing different knives. White steels are not bad steels, there are many genially excellent knives made out of this class of steels. This doesn't change the fact that there are steels that are better for knives. This assumes that the knife you want can be made out of the steel that is best for it and most of the time this is not an option, because the maker that makes the knife you like doesn't work in the steel you like. This is why maker is more important than the steel. Of course if the maker you like also works in the steel that is better pick that.

AEB-L is better on all fronts than shiro steels, except the artistic quality of shiro steels, (hamon, patina, banding, etc) basically everything unrelated to the actual use of the knife for cutting. Many don't believe in the superiority of AEB-L because they only have experience with crappy knives in AEB-L. For example, if you get an AEB-L knife that is soft and compare it to a significantly harder white 1 knife while in your use your edges roll and don't chip you might conclude that white 1 has better edge holding than AEB-L. You'll be right too, that in your use of these 2 knives, white 1 holds an edge better than AEB-L, but this has very little to do with the steels used.

When discussing steels you have to rely of what Larrin and the gang are doing. This is why what they do is so valuable, you just can't compare different knives and conclude steel differences.


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## Martyn (Mar 18, 2022)

Bico Doce said:


> Too late. I just threw my Togashi Tosa white 1 honyaki in the trash


You are not alone mate. Of all the steels, I own white 1 knives the most. Guess I will have to find a bigger bin


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## AT5760 (Mar 18, 2022)

Is anyone making this in AEB-L at this price point?






Mazaki Nakiri 180mm White II Steel blade Knife







www.aframestokyo.com





If so, let me know please!


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## brimmergj (Mar 18, 2022)

Bico Doce said:


> Too late. I just threw my Togashi Tosa white 1 honyaki in the trash


I'm not opposed to dumpster diving. I've done worse for a lot less.


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## esoo (Mar 18, 2022)

Bico Doce said:


> Too late. I just threw my Togashi Tosa white 1 honyaki in the trash



Dang, too far away to go dumpster diving....


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## esoo (Mar 18, 2022)

zizirex said:


> So Should I get it or wait for blue 1(Impossible...)? LOL
> 
> Tanaka White 1 is really good, almost as good as TF HT Wise.



KKF answer - buy both.


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## zizirex (Mar 18, 2022)

esoo said:


> KKF answer - buy both.


LOL.


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## Jason183 (Mar 18, 2022)

zizirex said:


> So Should I get it or wait for blue 1(Impossible...)? LOL
> 
> Tanaka White 1 is really good, almost as good as TF HT Wise.


Maby just get the Myojin R2 that he recently made or FM in Ginsan if available. Someone should convince Kosuke making FM in AEB-L that be awesome


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 18, 2022)

Since starting this thread I purchased another aogami blade.


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## SirCutAlot (Mar 18, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Since starting this thread I purchased another aogami blade.



Wait someone will start an Aogami Thread in the next future 

SirCutALot


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## Delat (Mar 18, 2022)

AT5760 said:


> Is anyone making this in AEB-L at this price point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I bet @MSicardCutlery could get pretty close. He just had a screaming deal on an AEB-L gyuto up.


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## blokey (Mar 18, 2022)

AT5760 said:


> Is anyone making this in AEB-L at this price point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I’m not mistaken, Kanehide use ps60, a version of AEB-L. Very different grind but still a good knife.









Hitohira KH Stainless Western Nakiri 180mm


Brand: Hitohira ひとひら (一片)Producing Area: Seki-Gifu/ JapanProfile: NakiriSize: 180mmSteel Type: Stainless SteelSteel: Mono Unclassified (Stainless Steel)Handle: Imitation Mahogany WesternTotal Length: 308mmEdge Length: 184mmHandle to Tip Length: 188mmBlade Height: 49mmThickness: 1.5mmHandle...




carbonknifeco.com


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## AT5760 (Mar 18, 2022)

I think the thickness may be the issue. I think my Mazaki nakiri is 220g roughly and is about 6mm at the ferrule. Though a quick search shows that AEB-L is available in 1/4" thickness...


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## BillHanna (Mar 18, 2022)

Alright you fxcking nerds, choose one: 

26c3 1084 80CrV2


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## Troopah_Knives (Mar 18, 2022)

80CrV2. Best hardness toughness ratio of the three. Chromium enrichment could give it marginally better wear resistance then 1084 or 26c3. Vanadium addition gives it a very fine achievable grain structure. It also fairly easy to HT so it has the best change of someone HT'ing out of a forge getting decent results.


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## Barmoley (Mar 18, 2022)

I've had good experience with 1080+ which is within the spec of 80CrV2, so would go with that.


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## daniel_il (Mar 18, 2022)

zizirex said:


> this thread makes me turn away from getting a Fujiyama FM W1.
> 
> dang.



get it. my w1 is a laser, i like the b2 a bit more but they are quite different. both outstanding for the price.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 18, 2022)

I should ad just because white steel isn't the "best" steel. It doesn't mean it doesn't have merits. Which have already been mentioned. Mostly artistic, and the knives made from it do work fine. 

I personally think one should just be realistic about what you are getting into when buying a knife. That involves knowing about steels, understanding what relationship behind the edge geometry plays in a blade, and as far as heat treat goes, it helps if a maker gives a rough estimate of the rockwell number of the knife. 

Those 3 can give, somewhat of a picture of how a knife will perform. They still aren't the whole picture, but they give you a starting point. 

With all that said. I need to commission one of those 15v gyutos from triple b. He does some crazy stuff.


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