# Opinion about Wüsthof Classic Ikon



## calostro5 (Oct 1, 2019)

I have bought in Amazon a Wüsthof Classic Ikon Chef knife which I have not used yet. I have paid 79€ for it, and I think it is a good price.
I have read that some people don't recommend this knife because of the steel and they prefer japanese steel. Some people says this knife is very heavy and the weight ist not right centred.
In the other hand, I don't have much experience in sharpening, and a soft steel ist easier to sharpen.
What do you think about this knife? I would use this knife at home.

Should I return it and look for another knife?


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## vlasena (Oct 1, 2019)

Hi Carlos, i think it depends on what you want from this knife. Some people say you have to upgrade only when you feel the need, so in that case go ahead and enjoy this knife until you feel the need to upgrade, other will say try them all and choose your best. In the second case you can order 2,3,4 or even 10 knives more from Amazon, choose best and send the rest back.


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## Nemo (Oct 1, 2019)

I don't know this particular knife although I have a number of similar knives (Wustoff Trident, Mundial).

None of these knives perform as well as even a basic quality Japanese (or Japanese style) knife.

Because:

1) They are thicker in the blade, behind the edge and at the edge, meaning that they are heavier and wedge more.
2) They have a pretty flat grind, giving them poor food release.
3) The steel is much softer, so won't sustain an acute angle edge.
4) The steel is coarser grained and doesn't hold a polish well. Anything over 1000 grit is a waste of time.
5) The steel contains a lot of Cr which makes it moderately abrasion resistant (resists being ground on a stone) and impotrantly, helps it form a tenacious (hard to remove) burr.

I find these knives harder to sharpen than most Japanese knives because:
1) They have a "gummy" feeling on the stones.
2) Even though the steel is relatively soft, it is relatively slow to grind.
3) It takes extra effort to get rid of the burr completely. You will never have a truly sharp knife until you learn to get rid of the burr completely.

(Edited to fix typos)


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## MarkC (Oct 1, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> I have bought in Amazon a Wüsthof Classic Ikon Chef knife which I have not used yet. I have paid 79€ for it, and I think it is a good price.
> I have read that some people don't recommend this knife because of the steel and they prefer japanese steel. Some people says this knife is very heavy and the weight ist not right centred.
> In the other hand, I don't have much experience in sharpening, and a soft steel ist easier to sharpen.
> What do you think about this knife? I would use this knife at home.
> ...


I have 3-4 similar knives in my knife drawer and hand them out to my wife or guests when they insist on helping. I keep them reasonably sharp and you can use a few swipes on a steel to straighten out the edge and they will cut reasonably well again. I never use them because I hate how they wedge and how dull they feel in comparison to J knives but they have a purpose in my household.


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 1, 2019)

I’ve tried the Wüsthof classic Ikon and I liked it. Sure, it is pretty heavy and the balance point is somewhere at the handle IIRC. Its profile makes it great for rocking.
While many or all of @nemo’s points apply I don’t think they should deter you from keeping your knife, so long as you have an interest in the knife and think it suits you. At 79€ there are other knives you could get, some of which are Japanese (the cheaper lines of Mac, Tojiro and perhaps Misono), but whether you should depends on you.


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## M1k3 (Oct 1, 2019)

Sometimes you need a nice, beefy and tough knife. The Ikon fits that in my opinion. Nothing wrong with that. I have a Wusthof Grand Prix II in my kit.


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## daveb (Oct 1, 2019)

A lot of it's "useability" dependes on your cutting style. If you (like most casual users) use a rock chop, tip on the board and guillotine product under the blade then the German profile will suit you well. That's what it lives for and the Wustie Classic is a good example of a German profile knife. If you prefer to push cut, and most experienced users find this more efficient, then you will find it something of a challenge.

The steel is relatively soft - by design - so that the knife may deflect if it sees rigorous use but unlike it's Japanese counterparts it likely won't chip. And it can be straightened with a sharpening steel. But when sharpening on stones I find them more difficult to sharpen despite it being soft because of abrasion resistant properties that are designed into the steel.

To exchange or not is your call but there's nothing wrong with keeping it. Suggest if you do that you pick up a good steel at your next opportunity. I like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Black-Cerami...sharpening+steel+black&qid=1569973935&sr=8-34


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## Nemo (Oct 1, 2019)

These knives do make good beater knives (knives that you use for tasks which might chip a Japanese knife).

My wife loves her Mundials. She complains that my Japanese knives are too sharp. Come to think of it, she complains that I make her Mundials too sharp as well.


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## Hassanbensober (Oct 1, 2019)

I spent my whole early adult life believing these knives were the best. They absolutely will stand up to any task you might need them too. I still keep a 10 inch classic chef dull and it is the best salmon skinner money can buy.


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## Walla (Oct 1, 2019)

I'd say keep it...every chef, serious home cook...needs at least one knife like this...I have a couple...it may not thrill like a j knife can...but properly maintained it will last you a lifetime and be the sharpest thing most people have ever seen...if you want to continue into the world of j knives...it's handy to have a knife you don't have to baby...one that can chop through chicken bones...cut through the hardest squash and need nothing more than a swipe on the steel...

Save your j knives for softer things...and enjoy the feeling...and not worry about them when faced with a task that could damage them...

That's my opinion

Take care


Jeff


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## Michi (Oct 2, 2019)

Yes, a Japanese knife will out-perform a Wüsthof in terms of sharpness and edge retention. It'll also be far more prone to chipping and, depending on the steel, rusting, so it's a trade-off. Also, once sharp, you can keep a Wüsthof sharp with a honing steel for a long time; with Japanese knives, you can't use a honing steel at all because the knife is harder than the honing steel. If you use a steel with a Japanese knife, at best, you will achieve nothing; at worst, you'l take chips out of the knife edge. To keep a Japanese knife sharp, you'll have to invest in (and learn how to use) sharpening stones (or pay someone to sharpen it for you).

I wouldn't knock a Wüsthof. I have a whole collection, and I managed to cook more than passably well with them for more than three decades. They are damn near indestructible, don't rust, will survive getting put in a dishwasher just fine, and you can actually cut pork crackling, seeded bread, or half-frozen food without damaging the knife. You can even drop the knife onto a tile floor and there is every chance that it won't take any notice.

The Wüsthofs (and similar European soft-steel knives) are good knives. Very pragmatic, robust, and down to earth. Having said that, once you get to use your first Japanese knife, it'll be an eye-opener. Japanese knives are in a different class in terms of performance. But, as I said above, they require much more attention to proper cutting technique, and they need a lot of maintenance.

Pick your poison…


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## M1k3 (Oct 2, 2019)

Michi said:


> Yes, a Japanese knife will out-perform a Wüsthof in terms of sharpness and edge retention. It'll also be far more prone to chipping and, depending on the steel, rusting, so it's a trade-off. Also, once sharp, you can keep a Wüsthof sharp with a honing steel for a long time; with Japanese knives, you can't use a honing steel at all because the knife is harder than the honing steel. If you use a steel with a Japanese knife, at best, you will achieve nothing; at worst, you'l take chips out of the knife edge. To keep a Japanese knife sharp, you'll have to invest in (and learn how to use) sharpening stones (or pay someone to sharpen it for you).
> 
> I wouldn't knock a Wüsthof. I have a whole collection, and I managed to cook more than passably well with them for more than three decades. They are damn near indestructible, don't rust, will survive getting put in a dishwasher just fine, and you can actually cut pork crackling, seeded bread, or half-frozen food without damaging the knife. You can even drop the knife onto a tile floor and there is every chance that it won't take any notice.
> 
> ...



Very well put. Wusthof and other similar German style knives are like Honda's and Toyata's. Useable performance and low maintenance. Where as J Knives are more like super cars. High performance and maintenance.


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## Eloh (Oct 2, 2019)

If you let it thin behind the edge a bit by someone competent with a belt grinder, it will be a very decent performer.
The relatively soft steel works best with a polishing rod. (eg dick micro)


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## Julian (Oct 2, 2019)

A lot of good points already made, I will also point out that what people here call "hard" or "soft" is very relative. If you are coming from cheap / no name knives, the Wüsthof will be much, much harder. It is not a soft steel by any means, just not as hard as others.


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## Eloh (Oct 2, 2019)

Good point. They are almost the same hardness as a ashi stainless for example


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## Julian (Oct 2, 2019)

For anyone saying you can't put a sharp edge on a Wüsthof, check out my cutting test


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## kayman67 (Oct 2, 2019)

Everything worth mentioning is already above. They work well (enough) for a particular cut, they can take a lot of abuse, an usable edge is easy to obtain. They can also be tuned and they get better, but an edge with good retention and decay is hard to obtain. Not impossible, but since it's out of reach for most people, might just as well be (I saw it's easier to get a better edge with Victorinox).
If the knife is a multi tool in the kitchen to care little for, this is a good buy. If not, even with mainstream choices like Mac or Global or others, it's difficult to recommend as first choice.


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## nonoyes (Oct 2, 2019)

This might be a contrary opinion but I think that if you do not sharpen yourself, German knives are better for the casual home cook (if it fits your cutting style etc.). The passable edge lasts longer, it holds up pretty well to board contact, and professional sharpening is not required very often. Learn to steel (lightly) and the edge should last a good while.

Nothing against Japanese knives, I use a gyuto more than anything else. I'm learning to sharpen and they are all easier to sharpen than my Wusthof. But I'm still glad I had my Wusthof first (and still).


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## Benuser (Oct 2, 2019)

Has been said before: thin it behind the edge, or at least ease the shoulders. The recent ones I've seen had a nasty burr or even a wire edge right OOTB.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 2, 2019)

My main gripe with wussys is the steel so much chrom. they won't rust. I can put an edge on them. They are not sharpening friendly at all takes some effort. A Victorinox is a much better knife.


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## suntravel (Oct 2, 2019)

cool knifes, but way to big bevel, get them thinned out and they are great performers 

Takes me 10 min on a beltgrinder and they are cutting like lasers with very good toughness and easy to sharpen.

Regards

Uwe


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## Benuser (Oct 2, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> My main gripe with wussys is the steel so much chrom. they won't rust. I can put an edge on them. They are not sharpening friendly at all takes some effort. A Victorinox is a much better knife.


Must have to do with different Heat Treatment, both being Krupp's 4116. IIRC, the Vics felt a bit coarser on the stones than Wüsthof.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 2, 2019)

Never thinned one on my belt. Think I will offer to one of the students. Some bring wussys & henks when start school from parents house. Just thinner edge would make easier to sharpen. Plus when they bring them to me they are very dull.


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## Benuser (Oct 2, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Never thinned one on my belt. Think I will offer to one of the students. Some bring wussys & henks when start school from parents house. Just thinner edge would make easier to sharpen. Plus when they bring them to me they are very dull.


The thickness behind the edge makes people use a lot force, and so the board contact will be harder to the edge.


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## MarkC (Oct 2, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> Everything worth mentioning is already above. They work well (enough) for a particular cut, they can take a lot of abuse, an usable edge is easy to obtain. They can also be tuned and they get better, but an edge with good retention and decay is hard to obtain. Not impossible, but since it's out of reach for most people, might just as well be (I saw it's easier to get a better edge with Victorinox).
> If the knife is a multi tool in the kitchen to care little for, this is a good buy. If not, even with mainstream choices like Mac or Global or others, it's difficult to recommend as first choice.


I think your comments on where I am. I have used Macs for years before being able to afford some of my current knives and they perform pretty well and can be sharpened easily with a couple stones.


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## calostro5 (Oct 2, 2019)

vlasena said:


> Hi Carlos, i think it depends on what you want from this knife. Some people say you have to upgrade only when you feel the need, so in that case go ahead and enjoy this knife until you feel the need to upgrade, other will say try them all and choose your best. In the second case you can order 2,3,4 or even 10 knives more from Amazon, choose best and send the rest back.



I want this knife only for cooking in my house. I don't have any knowledge in cooking or training in cutting.



Nemo said:


> I don't know this particular knife although I have a number of similar knives (Wustoff Trident, Mundial).
> 
> None of these knives perform as well as even a basic quality Japanese (or Japanese style) knife.
> 
> ...



Good reasons to return the knife and look for a japanese knife.



MarkC said:


> I have 3-4 similar knives in my knife drawer and hand them out to my wife or guests when they insist on helping. I keep them reasonably sharp and you can use a few swipes on a steel to straighten out the edge and they will cut reasonably well again. I never use them because I hate how they wedge and how dull they feel in comparison to J knives but they have a purpose in my household.



So, you prefer a japanese knife.



Carl Kotte said:


> I’ve tried the Wüsthof classic Ikon and I liked it. Sure, it is pretty heavy and the balance point is somewhere at the handle IIRC. Its profile makes it great for rocking.
> While many or all of @nemo’s points apply I don’t think they should deter you from keeping your knife, so long as you have an interest in the knife and think it suits you. At 79€ there are other knives you could get, some of which are Japanese (the cheaper lines of Mac, Tojiro and perhaps Misono), but whether you should depends on you.



I will look for these knives. In order to avoid extra taxes, I would buy what I find in Europa.



M1k3 said:


> Sometimes you need a nice, beefy and tough knife. The Ikon fits that in my opinion. Nothing wrong with that. I have a Wusthof Grand Prix II in my kit.



One comment in favor of this knife.
I agree this knife seems beefy, but for hard dutty I could use a cheaper knife.



daveb said:


> A lot of it's "useability" dependes on your cutting style. If you (like most casual users) use a rock chop, tip on the board and guillotine product under the blade then the German profile will suit you well. That's what it lives for and the Wustie Classic is a good example of a German profile knife. If you prefer to push cut, and most experienced users find this more efficient, then you will find it something of a challenge.
> 
> The steel is relatively soft - by design - so that the knife may deflect if it sees rigorous use but unlike it's Japanese counterparts it likely won't chip. And it can be straightened with a sharpening steel. But when sharpening on stones I find them more difficult to sharpen despite it being soft because of abrasion resistant properties that are designed into the steel.
> 
> To exchange or not is your call but there's nothing wrong with keeping it. Suggest if you do that you pick up a good steel at your next opportunity. I like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Black-Cerami...sharpening+steel+black&qid=1569973935&sr=8-34



I don't know my cutting style as I don't have any technique or training in cutting. I fact I don't know the different cutting styles.
My idea is sharpening with stones. So, as you say, this a soft steel but difficult to sharpen with a stone. This doesn't seems a good steel for a beginner.
On the other hand, this steel doesn't chip as easily as japaneses steels.



Nemo said:


> These knives do make good beater knives (knives that you use for tasks which might chip a Japanese knife).
> 
> My wife loves her Mundials. She complains that my Japanese knives are too sharp. Come to think of it, she complains that I make her Mundials too sharp as well.



So, you are in favor of this knife.



Hassanbensober said:


> I spent my whole early adult life believing these knives were the best. They absolutely will stand up to any task you might need them too. I still keep a 10 inch classic chef dull and it is the best salmon skinner money can buy.



I understand that now you think there are better options. What do you recommend me?



Walla said:


> I'd say keep it...every chef, serious home cook...needs at least one knife like this...I have a couple...it may not thrill like a j knife can...but properly maintained it will last you a lifetime and be the sharpest thing most people have ever seen...if you want to continue into the world of j knives...it's handy to have a knife you don't have to baby...one that can chop through chicken bones...cut through the hardest squash and need nothing more than a swipe on the steel...
> 
> Save your j knives for softer things...and enjoy the feeling...and not worry about them when faced with a task that could damage them...
> 
> ...



I appreciate your opinion. I don't have any japanese knife. All my knives are cheap and spanish.
Thank you take care you too.



Michi said:


> Yes, a Japanese knife will out-perform a Wüsthof in terms of sharpness and edge retention. It'll also be far more prone to chipping and, depending on the steel, rusting, so it's a trade-off. Also, once sharp, you can keep a Wüsthof sharp with a honing steel for a long time; with Japanese knives, you can't use a honing steel at all because the knife is harder than the honing steel. If you use a steel with a Japanese knife, at best, you will achieve nothing; at worst, you'l take chips out of the knife edge. To keep a Japanese knife sharp, you'll have to invest in (and learn how to use) sharpening stones (or pay someone to sharpen it for you).
> 
> I wouldn't knock a Wüsthof. I have a whole collection, and I managed to cook more than passably well with them for more than three decades. They are damn near indestructible, don't rust, will survive getting put in a dishwasher just fine, and you can actually cut pork crackling, seeded bread, or half-frozen food without damaging the knife. You can even drop the knife onto a tile floor and there is every chance that it won't take any notice.
> 
> ...



I the way in which you set out the matter, Wüsthof is a good choice for a beginner. But I won0t use a honing steel for sharpening, but stones.


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## calostro5 (Oct 2, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> Very well put. Wusthof and other similar German style knives are like Honda's and Toyata's. Useable performance and low maintenance. Where as J Knives are more like super cars. High performance and maintenance.



Other opinion in favor of this knife.



Julian said:


> A lot of good points already made, I will also point out that what people here call "hard" or "soft" is very relative. If you are coming from cheap / no name knives, the Wüsthof will be much, much harder. It is not a soft steel by any means, just not as hard as others.



Yes, the other knives that I have are cheap knives.



Julian said:


> For anyone saying you can't put a sharp edge on a Wüsthof, check out my cutting test




Good edge. What did you used to get it?
I have just bought a Shapton 1000 stone. Maybe this it too coarse to get a smooth edge.



kayman67 said:


> Everything worth mentioning is already above. They work well (enough) for a particular cut, they can take a lot of abuse, an usable edge is easy to obtain. They can also be tuned and they get better, but an edge with good retention and decay is hard to obtain. Not impossible, but since it's out of reach for most people, might just as well be (I saw it's easier to get a better edge with Victorinox).
> If the knife is a multi tool in the kitchen to care little for, this is a good buy. If not, even with mainstream choices like Mac or Global or others, it's difficult to recommend as first choice.



This a good point of view, My idea is to use this knife for everything. But I won't abuse it. I take care the tools.



nonoyes said:


> This might be a contrary opinion but I think that if you do not sharpen yourself, German knives are better for the casual home cook (if it fits your cutting style etc.). The passable edge lasts longer, it holds up pretty well to board contact, and professional sharpening is not required very often. Learn to steel (lightly) and the edge should last a good while.
> 
> Nothing against Japanese knives, I use a gyuto more than anything else. I'm learning to sharpen and they are all easier to sharpen than my Wusthof. But I'm still glad I had my Wusthof first (and still).



I would sharpen the knife. I just need to improve my sharpening skill.



Benuser said:


> Has been said before: thin it behind the edge, or at least ease the shoulders. The recent ones I've seen had a nasty burr or even a wire edge right OOTB.



So, you would buy a japanese knife. Or at least not this knife.



Keith Sinclair said:


> My main gripe with wussys is the steel so much chrom. they won't rust. I can put an edge on them. They are not sharpening friendly at all takes some effort. A Victorinox is a much better knife.



Victorinox Fibrox?



suntravel said:


> cool knifes, but way to big bevel, get them thinned out and they are great performers
> 
> Takes me 10 min on a beltgrinder and they are cutting like lasers with very good toughness and easy to sharpen.
> 
> ...



I don't have a beltgrinder, and I need to improve my sharpening skill.
Regards.



Keith Sinclair said:


> Never thinned one on my belt. Think I will offer to one of the students. Some bring wussys & henks when start school from parents house. Just thinner edge would make easier to sharpen. Plus when they bring them to me they are very dull.



I agree, thinner edge makes easier to sharpen.


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## nonoyes (Oct 2, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> I would sharpen the knife. I just need to improve my sharpening skill.



Wusthof has changed since I bought my knife years ago so this may not apply to yours but I don't enjoy sharpening mine. At. All. I still think it's a great knife otherwise.

The steeling I'm referring to is not sharpening, it is using the metal rod to "realign the teeth", which is a quick task frequently performed on classic western chef's knives (but offers little reward and much risk to higher hardness, e.g., Japanese, knives):



You can fill out the questionnaire and get lots of advice if you want to look at new knives (the questionnaire also has nice descriptions of the different cutting techniques).


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 3, 2019)

@calostro5 I want to go on record in support of you keeping your Wüsthof! [emoji1303]


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## Bobby2shots (Oct 3, 2019)

Calostro5,
Another vote in favour of keeping the Wusthof Ikon,,,, don't underestimate it, it's a very well made knife, and can potentially serve you a lifetime. Don't get caught up in which knife is "better", without identifying specifically what makes one knife "better" than the other when that knife is in YOUR hands. (better at what task exactly?) 

Look at your own specific needs, and go with the knife that best suits those needs. Both Japanese and German knives have their strong points, and weaknesses. The Wusthof is a great all-rounder, especially if you only have a few knives. If you need to add a less-expensive and thinner knife for some reason, such as for cutting squash or other fibrous produce, you might want to consider a Victorinox knife for your collection. In my opinion, the Victorinox knives are one of the great bargains out there today; extremely easy to maintain a razor-sharp edge, and far less prone to chipping than many of the harder-steel knives out there. My 6" Victorinox Rosewood utility/chef knife is my most frequently used knife (4-5 times a day), and it's still as sharp is the day I bought it 10 months ago in December of 2018. A joy to use... and I confess, I didn't expect that when I bought it. I've not had to sharpen it at all on stones,,,, just the lightest touch-up with a steel or ceramic honing rod, and I can cut tomatoes so thin, you can read a newspaper through them.

FWIW, I own 20 or so German and Japanese knives by Wusthof, Zwilling Pro,Victorinox, Miyabi, Shun, and MAC. They're all good knives, and I don't consider any of them "better" than another,,,, just different, each with their own strong points and weaknesses.


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## vlasena (Oct 5, 2019)

So what is the result at the end? did you keep it?


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## calostro5 (Oct 5, 2019)

nonoyes said:


> Wusthof has changed since I bought my knife years ago so this may not apply to yours but I don't enjoy sharpening mine. At. All. I still think it's a great knife otherwise.
> 
> The steeling I'm referring to is not sharpening, it is using the metal rod to "realign the teeth", which is a quick task frequently performed on classic western chef's knives (but offers little reward and much risk to higher hardness, e.g., Japanese, knives):
> 
> ...




I know what the steeling is used for. You are right, the steeling is not used for sharpening but keeping the edge in a fast way. Sorry, because of my English sometimes I am not able to explain my ideas clearly.
I will take a look at the questionnaire. But looking for japanese knives I have been the Tojito f-808, which is not too much expensive and has a good steel.
Thank you.



Carl Kotte said:


> @calostro5 I want to go on record in support of you keeping your Wüsthof! [emoji1303]



Thank you. I think that I will keep it finaly. But now I am tempted to buy a japanese knife.



Bobby2shots said:


> Calostro5,
> Another vote in favour of keeping the Wusthof Ikon,,,, don't underestimate it, it's a very well made knife, and can potentially serve you a lifetime. Don't get caught up in which knife is "better", without identifying specifically what makes one knife "better" than the other when that knife is in YOUR hands. (better at what task exactly?)
> 
> Look at your own specific needs, and go with the knife that best suits those needs. Both Japanese and German knives have their strong points, and weaknesses. The Wusthof is a great all-rounder, especially if you only have a few knives. If you need to add a less-expensive and thinner knife for some reason, such as for cutting squash or other fibrous produce, you might want to consider a Victorinox knife for your collection. In my opinion, the Victorinox knives are one of the great bargains out there today; extremely easy to maintain a razor-sharp edge, and far less prone to chipping than many of the harder-steel knives out there. My 6" Victorinox Rosewood utility/chef knife is my most frequently used knife (4-5 times a day), and it's still as sharp is the day I bought it 10 months ago in December of 2018. A joy to use... and I confess, I didn't expect that when I bought it. I've not had to sharpen it at all on stones,,,, just the lightest touch-up with a steel or ceramic honing rod, and I can cut tomatoes so thin, you can read a newspaper through them.
> ...



Before buying the Wünsthof I saw the Victorinox Fibrox, and I have read good opinions. I thought about buying it, but finally, I decided the Wüsthof because I think this is a better knife.
Oh my God, 20 knives! Why do you have so many knives? One life is not enough to use all them.


This forum causes temptation


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## calostro5 (Oct 5, 2019)

vlasena said:


> So what is the result at the end? did you keep it?




Yes, so far, I keep it.
But I am thinking about buying a japanese knife too


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## dafox (Oct 5, 2019)

"This forum causes temptation "
LOL!!!


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## captaincaed (Oct 5, 2019)

I think German knives are great for butchery, bones and removing the ends from squash. 

The ability to use a steel makes a nice edge for many butchery tasks, and the robust edge won't get ruined in a hard squash


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## Hassanbensober (Oct 5, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> I know what the steeling is used for. You are right, the steeling is not used for sharpening but keeping the edge in a fast way. Sorry, because of my English sometimes I am not able to explain my ideas clearly.
> I will take a look at the questionnaire. But looking for japanese knives I have been the Tojito f-808, which is not too much expensive and has a good steel.
> Thank you.
> 
> ...


I must confess I own own 20 Wusthof knives alone. Most of them have been donated to my parents now. The Tojiro is a excellent first j knife choice as well. Your right this forum encourages temptation wonderful temptation


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## Bobby2shots (Oct 6, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> Before buying the Wünsthof I saw the Victorinox Fibrox, and I have read good opinions. I thought about buying it, but finally, I decided the Wüsthof because I think this is a better knife.
> Oh my God, 20 knives! Why do you have so many knives? One life is not enough to use all them.
> 
> 
> This forum causes temptation



You're 100% right... and that probably explains why I have so many knives,,,, totally unnecessary, but nice to have. That said,,, I hadn't bought any knives since the late 1970's. At that time I had a Zwilling Pro-S 10" chef and 10" carving knife, plus a 6" chef/utility knife,, 5.5" boning knife,,,and 10" bread knife, and that was all I needed for the past 40 years or so. I then had an accident and dropped the 6" chef knife, breaking 1 1/2" of blade tip off the knife. My 6" chef/utility knife had now become a 4.5" knife quasi Nakiri.

A year ago, while Christmas shopping, I unexpectedly came across a knife display-case which had a bunch of Victorinox knives, and when I saw the Victorinox Rosewood 6" chef/utility knife, I said to myself "Finally,,, I've found the knife to replace my broken Zwilling 6" knife. At the time, I wasn't expecting that knife to be anything special, but it didn't take long for me to warm right up to that knife,,, and it's since become the handiest knife in my kitchen. I absolutely love the performance and reliability of this knife, and it's incredibly easy to maintain a razor-sharp edge, with zero chipping issues. I also like the feel and warmth of the Rosewood grip.

At that time, I decided to get this same Victorinox Rosewood 6" chef/utility knife as a Christmas gift to my girlfriends' daughter, since she had just moved into her first apartment with no cutlery other than hand-me-downs,,, and I ended up buying 4-5 more knives for her, including a 10" Millenia bread knife from Mercer, which was America's Test Kitchen favourite pick for a bread knife. I also got her a Mercer Renaissance forged paring knife,, an 8" Victorinox Fibrox chef knife,, and a 7" Victorinox Rosewood santoku. I also got her a 10" Idahone ceramic hong rod and a few other goodies, such as Victorinox in-drawer knife storage racks, and a Chef's Choice pull-through sharpener. She's set for life if she takes good care of them.

By the time I finished ordering her knives, I realize I had become somewhat hooked, and started adding a few knives for myself, plus I had renewed my interest in sharpening,,, so, some new stones were in order. I already had four Norton (220/1000/4000/8000) Japanese waterstones for my wood-working shop, plus a King 2-in-1 (400/800 oilstone), and a Tormek, and I've since added ShaptonGlass 320,1000/4000/8000 with the Shapton DiamondGlass Lapping plate, plus a Naniwa Aotoshi GreenBrick of Joy (2k), and a couple of Atoma diamond plates (400 and a 600),,strops 3M films, etc.

As for knives,,, I especially got into looking for the ideal (for me) petty/utility/chef knife, and started buying 4 1/2"-6" knives from different makers,,, mostly German,, Wusthof Classic and Classic-Ikon,,,Zwilling Pro,, but also a few Japanese knives from Shun and Miyabi, as well as a MAC Nakiri. That said, I still reach for the 6" Victorinox most of the time. I've since added a few more Vic's, including 8" and 10" chef's knives and carving knives,,paring knives,,cheese knives,,shears,,,cleavers,,,, it just doesn't stop,,,, but I think I'm done now,,,,,,,almost.


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## M1k3 (Oct 6, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> This forum causes temptation



The cure is to buy more knives. If that doesn't work, then synthetic sharpening stones. If that doesn't work, then natural sharpening stones. If that still doesn't work, you can get into knife making. Good luck!


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## captaincaed (Oct 6, 2019)

Am I the only person who can't get a good edge on the Victorinox? I'm hoping someone like Panda will come to my rescue and jump up and down on chromium steels to make me feel less inadequate.


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## Bobby2shots (Oct 6, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Am I the only person who can't get a good edge on the Victorinox? I'm hoping someone like Panda will come to my rescue and jump up and down on chromium steels to make me feel less inadequate.



The trick with the Vic's is to not let them get dull in the first place. 99% of the time, a gentle honing (read "LIGHT feathering) is all that's needed to return to a razor edge. Vic's steel has a certain silkiness to it... I don't know how to otherwise describe it. I don't feel the brittleness that by comparison, is so common in some of the other German steels.

I wouldn't take too seriously the opinions of those who tend to knock German steels, or, "so-called Chromium steels". Those guys apply their "internet-logic" to denegrate everything that's not considered exotic. Their logic may apply when their trashing $3. Wal-Mart or Dollar-Store knives,,, but the likes of Zwilling, Wusthof, Victorinox didn't make their global reputations by producing junk. There's a lot more to knife manufacturing than steel type.

Which Vic knife are you having trouble with? Also, are you familiar with Peter Nowlan's knife sharpening videos?


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## M1k3 (Oct 6, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Am I the only person who can't get a good edge on the Victorinox? I'm hoping someone like Panda will come to my rescue and jump up and down on chromium steels to make me feel less inadequate.



Do VERY light edge leading strokes on a 1-2k stone.


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## Benuser (Oct 6, 2019)

Have sharpened quite a bit of brand new Vics, and did it only on a Chosera 400 (+/-JIS600 as an end result). First thing to do is easing the shoulders. Use the marker trick and a loupe as the factory edge ends at quite high an angle. Deburred with the rough side of a green ScotchBrite. Don't look for any refinement. Steel feels coarser on the stones than the same Krupp's 4116 with Zwilling or Wüsthof.


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## calostro5 (Oct 6, 2019)

dafox said:


> "This forum causes temptation "
> LOL!!!



Yes, because there are a lot of opinions, and these opinions suggest some different knives. I like all of them, but I won't buy so much knives.



captaincaed said:


> I think German knives are great for butchery, bones and removing the ends from squash.
> 
> The ability to use a steel makes a nice edge for many butchery tasks, and the robust edge won't get ruined in a hard squash



So, you think german knives are good for rough tasks.



Hassanbensober said:


> I must confess I own own 20 Wusthof knives alone. Most of them have been donated to my parents now. The Tojiro is a excellent first j knife choice as well. Your right this forum encourages temptation wonderful temptation



Many temptation are wonderful temptations; kitchen knives, pocket knives, shoes, watches,...



Bobby2shots said:


> You're 100% right... and that probably explains why I have so many knives,,,, totally unnecessary, but nice to have. That said,,, I hadn't bought any knives since the late 1970's. At that time I had a Zwilling Pro-S 10" chef and 10" carving knife, plus a 6" chef/utility knife,, 5.5" boning knife,,,and 10" bread knife, and that was all I needed for the past 40 years or so. I then had an accident and dropped the 6" chef knife, breaking 1 1/2" of blade tip off the knife. My 6" chef/utility knife had now become a 4.5" knife quasi Nakiri.
> 
> A year ago, while Christmas shopping, I unexpectedly came across a knife display-case which had a bunch of Victorinox knives, and when I saw the Victorinox Rosewood 6" chef/utility knife, I said to myself "Finally,,, I've found the knife to replace my broken Zwilling 6" knife. At the time, I wasn't expecting that knife to be anything special, but it didn't take long for me to warm right up to that knife,,, and it's since become the handiest knife in my kitchen. I absolutely love the performance and reliability of this knife, and it's incredibly easy to maintain a razor-sharp edge, with zero chipping issues. I also like the feel and warmth of the Rosewood grip.
> 
> ...



Yes, they are nice to have. But it means much money spent in them and knives stored instead of being used.
This iis a interesting and funny story. You started buying knives for your girlfriend's daughter and then you realized that you had bought her too much knives and you decided buying more knives for you.
I have a few stones. The best stone I have is a Shapton Kuromaku 1000, and probably I will buy a diamond plate to lapping this stone. What do you think about your King stone? This stone are not expensive and has two grain sizes. I need a coarser stone but I don't want to spend much money in it.
Do you would recommend Victorinox instead of other german and more expensive brand?



M1k3 said:


> The cure is to buy more knives. If that doesn't work, then synthetic sharpening stones. If that doesn't work, then natural sharpening stones. If that still doesn't work, you can get into knife making. Good luck!



I need more money lol.
I will try not to buy much more knives, and buy only the stones that I need. I think it is a pitty to have the things stored in a drawer.



captaincaed said:


> Am I the only person who can't get a good edge on the Victorinox? I'm hoping someone like Panda will come to my rescue and jump up and down on chromium steels to make me feel less inadequate.



I think that it is possible to get a good edge from any steel with a good stone. Could be your stone the problem?


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## calostro5 (Oct 6, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Have sharpened quite a bit of brand new Vics, and did it only on a Chosera 400 (+/-JIS600 as an end result). First thing to do is easing the shoulders. Use the marker trick and a loupe as the factory edge ends at quite high an angle. Deburred with the rough side of a green ScotchBrite. Don't look for any refinement. Steel feels coarser on the stones than the same Krupp's 4116 with Zwilling or Wüsthof.



It is supposed that the steel used by Victorinox is the same used by Wüsthof and Zwilling, but you say that the Victorinox steel is coarser. Is it due to the heat treatment?


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## Benuser (Oct 6, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> It is supposed that the steel used by Victorinox is the same used by Wüsthof and Zwilling, but you say that the Victorinox steel is coarser. Is it due to the heat treatment?


Guess so.


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## kayman67 (Oct 6, 2019)

It's definitely different. And I'm not the only one saying it. This "same steel" is really vague. I've heard how all Zwilling made knives are exactly the same, except different handles, but that's not true either.


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## calostro5 (Oct 6, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Guess so.



Which manufacturer do you think treat better this steel?



kayman67 said:


> It's definitely different. And I'm not the only one saying it. This "same steel" is really vague. I've heard how all Zwilling made knives are exactly the same, except different handles, but that's not true either.



The same happen with a spanish manufacturer (Arcos). All their knives use a steel registered as Nitrum, but it is supposed than the hardness in the lower range is different than in the higher range.

I have read (but I don't remember where) that Zwilling owns a part of Arcos, and some knives of the low range are made by Arcos.
Does know somebody anything about it?


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## kayman67 (Oct 6, 2019)

I know some were made in Spain, but that's about it. Can't tell more. Don't know who exactly makes them there. Always imagined it was just a factory with cheaper labour for Europe.


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## captaincaed (Oct 6, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Have sharpened quite a bit of brand new Vics, and did it only on a Chosera 400 (+/-JIS600 as an end result). First thing to do is easing the shoulders. Use the marker trick and a loupe as the factory edge ends at quite high an angle. Deburred with the rough side of a green ScotchBrite. Don't look for any refinement. Steel feels coarser on the stones than the same Krupp's 4116 with Zwilling or Wüsthof.


I think this was my issue. Was looking for something keen, should have been happy with toothy


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## Bobby2shots (Oct 7, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> Yes, they are nice to have. But it means much money spent in them and knives stored instead of being used.
> This iis a interesting and funny story. You started buying knives for your girlfriend's daughter and then you realized that you had bought her too much knives and you decided buying more knives for you.
> I have a few stones. The best stone I have is a Shapton Kuromaku 1000, and probably I will buy a diamond plate to lapping this stone. What do you think about your King stone? This stone are not expensive and has two grain sizes. I need a coarser stone but I don't want to spend much money in it.
> Do you would recommend Victorinox instead of other german and more expensive brand?


 Calostro5,,, That's an interesting question, and there are many ways to answer it. I would struggle however, with the term "INSTEAD of other German knives". Yes, I heartily recommend the Vic's as I see them being one of the truly great values out there today. It's really quite amazing considering that most other German knives are generally far costlier. Mind you, I've yet to get my hands on the Victorinox Grand Maitre series, and those are quite expensive here in Canada.

It's difficult for me to pin down exactly what attracts me about a given knife. My last few knife purchases were more about finding a specific blade-to-handle geometry for my petty/utility knives. On the other hand, some of the Wusthof IKON's I bought, were more about a pull-cut and the type of handle for that purpose. The type of steel was really of very little concern to me when choosing those knives. Two of the petty/utility/prep knives I bought were Zwilling Pro's,,,, a 5'5" straight edge,,, and a 7" straight edge. I very much like both of those knives for prep work. I also tried the 5.5" serrated-blade version of that same knife, and absolutely hated the cut. I immediately returned it. The serrations were a tooth-scallop-scallop-tooth design, and it just felt terrible in the cut,,, sort of tear/bump/bump/tear.

I've bought duds too,,,, well, maybe that's a bit unfair, since I really haven't gotten around to using all of them yet,,,, but one of the Santoku's I bought is a Zwilling Pro Rocking santoku. That knife has wayyy too much curve in my opinion.... but,,, it is a solid sharp knife that typically retails for $225. CDN, and I got it for $69. CDN. I've also got a Wusthof IKON 7" santoku that I much prefer,,,, but I'm not that fond of santoku's to begin with. I bought it because I believed my girlfriend would find it less intimidating than a chef's knife.

You asked me how I like the King stone, and unfortunately it's been so long since I've used it (over 20 years),,, and I was using it to sharpen chisels and hand-plane blades. I don't recall ever using it on a knife,,,, I simply don't recall. I bought a Tormek round about the same time,, and that became my main sharpening system, I had also bought the Norton Japanese waterstone set around the same time, and that was my preferred choice for hand-sharpening. (220/1000/4000/8000)

Now, one thing that you've mentioned is "expensive". Well, the secret there is "be patient". There are always deals out there,,,, and they pop up quite frequently. Get to know the pricing of the knives and stones you're considering,,, then when you see the right price,,, go for it. I know my Canadian pricing inside/out,,, and I can smell a deal like a shark smells blood-in-the-water.

Lastly,,, if you're only out to impress yourself rather than others,,, get to know some of the less expensive offerings that offer truly outstanding performance relative to money spent. They're out there. One that instantly comes to mind is the Mercer Millenia 10" bread knife, which sells for roughly $28. here in Canada. It may look plain, but the cutting performance is exceptional, and the handle feels superb. The Victorinox Fibrox 8" chef knife is another truly outstanding bargain.


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## Scribbled (Oct 7, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> It's definitely different. And I'm not the only one saying it. This "same steel" is really vague. I've heard how all Zwilling made knives are exactly the same, except different handles, but that's not true either.


Zwilling knives made in China are milled , others maybe forged.


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## suntravel (Oct 7, 2019)

Scribbled said:


> Zwilling knives made in China are milled , others maybe forged



As far as i know Zwilling produces only in Germay and Japan, all with bolsters are drop forged.

Regards

Uwe


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## kayman67 (Oct 7, 2019)

Zwilling developes and makes some stuff in Shanghai. I'm not familiar with the products. All I know is that there is the new development center of the company, China being a huge market.


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## parbaked (Oct 7, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> Zwilling developes and makes some stuff in Shanghai. I'm not familiar with the products. All I know is that there is the new development center of the company, China being a huge market.



No doubt...it is near impossible to penetrate the China market unless you commit to manufacturing there and all the travails that come with that. 

The worst part is that Zwilling will likely be forced to export some percentage of whatever they end up manufacturing in China to ensure the venture generates foreign exchange. 

It's the price China make brands pay for the opportunity to participate in their market.


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## parbaked (Oct 7, 2019)

suntravel said:


> As far as i know Zwilling produces only in Germay and Japan, all with bolsters are drop forged.



Zwilling do a lot more than that, especially if one includes their Henckels brand.

For example, they also makes stamped knives without bolsters.
https://www.zwilling.com/us/zwilling/cutlery/twin-signature/

Zwilling has factories in Spain where they manufacture the Classics line
https://www.zwilling.com/us/henckels-international/cutlery/classic/.

Looks like these are made in China:
https://www.zwilling.com/us/henckel...s-international_cutlery_forged-premio#start=6

These were designed in Italy specifically for the China market:
https://www.zwilling.com.cn/item/ZWA082
https://www.zwilling.com.cn/item/ZWA047

There is a lot going on in the world....


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## calostro5 (Oct 7, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> I know some were made in Spain, but that's about it. Can't tell more. Don't know who exactly makes them there. Always imagined it was just a factory with cheaper labour for Europe.



Arcos is the biggest knives manufacturer of Spain. But I don't find information about if Zwilling is the owner of a part of Arcos company.



Bobby2shots said:


> Calostro5,,, That's an interesting question, and there are many ways to answer it. I would struggle however, with the term "INSTEAD of other German knives". Yes, I heartily recommend the Vic's as I see them being one of the truly great values out there today. It's really quite amazing considering that most other German knives are generally far costlier. Mind you, I've yet to get my hands on the Victorinox Grand Maitre series, and those are quite expensive here in Canada.
> 
> It's difficult for me to pin down exactly what attracts me about a given knife. My last few knife purchases were more about finding a specific blade-to-handle geometry for my petty/utility knives. On the other hand, some of the Wusthof IKON's I bought, were more about a pull-cut and the type of handle for that purpose. The type of steel was really of very little concern to me when choosing those knives. Two of the petty/utility/prep knives I bought were Zwilling Pro's,,,, a 5'5" straight edge,,, and a 7" straight edge. I very much like both of those knives for prep work. I also tried the 5.5" serrated-blade version of that same knife, and absolutely hated the cut. I immediately returned it. The serrations were a tooth-scallop-scallop-tooth design, and it just felt terrible in the cut,,, sort of tear/bump/bump/tear.
> 
> ...



A knife is the mix of materials, aesthetic, ergonomics, feelings,... Sometimes it is complex to say why do you prefer a knife instead (if this is the right word) of others. 
I have bought today a knife that, I would say, it is over Wüsthof Classic Ikon in finish. I am really surprised with it. This knife cost a half of Wüsthof, but it is stamped and the hardness is arround 56 hrc. I hope to create a thread to present it.
I live in Spain, here there are no so many deals, and the prices are usually higher than in USA, at least for the japanise knives. And there is a problem to buy outside of the EU; taxes.




Scribbled said:


> Zwilling knives made in China are milled , others maybe forged.



As it can be seen in their webpage, the knives made in Spain are under the trademark Henkels international classic.
https://www.zwilling.com/us/henckels-international/cutlery/classic/



suntravel said:


> As far as i know Zwilling produces only in Germay and Japan, all with bolsters are drop forged.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



You can see above that under the trademark Henkels some knives are made in Spain.



parbaked said:


> No doubt...it is near impossible to penetrate the China market unless you commit to manufacturing there and all the travails that come with that.
> 
> The worst part is that Zwilling will likely be forced to export some percentage of whatever they end up manufacturing in China to ensure the venture generates foreign exchange.
> 
> It's the price China make brands pay for the opportunity to participate in their market.



No problem for me unless the prices in western are the same than if the knives were made in Europe. Some companies manufacture in China, but the prices are like manufacture in Europe.



parbaked said:


> Zwilling do a lot more than that, especially if one includes their Henckels brand.
> 
> For example, they also makes stamped knives without bolsters.
> https://www.zwilling.com/us/zwilling/cutlery/twin-signature/
> ...



You found before me the link of the range manufactured in Spain, and some other manufactured outside of Germany.


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## OnionSlicer (Oct 7, 2019)

The thing that throws me off about the Ikon is how handle heavy it is, it just feels so odd in the hand after getting accustomed to the balance point being around pinch grip. I gifted one with a white handle and it had great fit & finish though.


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## Benuser (Oct 8, 2019)

OnionSlicer said:


> The thing that throws me off about the Ikon is how handle heavy it is, it just feels so odd in the hand after getting accustomed to the balance point being around pinch grip. I gifted one with a white handle and it had great fit & finish though.


Exactly. Tall rock-choppers will like it. Handle heaviness impedes other techniques.


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## calostro5 (Oct 8, 2019)

OnionSlicer said:


> The thing that throws me off about the Ikon is how handle heavy it is, it just feels so odd in the hand after getting accustomed to the balance point being around pinch grip. I gifted one with a white handle and it had great fit & finish though.



The whole knife is heavy (272 gm in the model of 20 cm), and the balance is in the first rivet. I don't like these two details.
Have you removed the ending of the handle?



Benuser said:


> Exactly. Tall rock-choppers will like it. Handle heaviness impedes other techniques.



However, I see in many videos that this knife is very appreciated.


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## OnionSlicer (Oct 8, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> The whole knife is heavy (272 gm in the model of 20 cm), and the balance is in the first rivet. I don't like these two details.
> Have you removed the ending of the handle?



Not sure what you mean, are you talking about sawing off the metal butt, or even more off the handle? I think I'd rather just get a different knife if I didn't like the balance that much.


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## daveb (Oct 8, 2019)

I've done a lot of demos and cooking classes, knife skills classes for a local culinary store. They carry Wusties, Shun, offered Messermeister as special order, did carry Henckels. and even had Ken Onion for a bit.

My recollection is that the Wusties were neutral balanced throughout their lines - one of the reasons I came to prefer the slightly blade heavy Messermeister.

Henckels does not know where it wants to be in the knife world. When I first knew of them they had the Four Star line which was quite solid (still have a couple). Henks wanted some of the cheaper market so they offered the Spanish made lines that were crap. IIRC they make a line in South America. They wanted a piece of Shun's market so they offered Miyabi - a decent housewife knife but not for me. And in cheaper offerings they produce in China.

Henks is still bouncing around and not able to commit to where they want to be, in contrast to Wustie who offers the solid Ikon lines and a less expensive department store line - and thats all.


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## Bobby2shots (Oct 8, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Am I the only person who can't get a good edge on the Victorinox? I'm hoping someone like Panda will come to my rescue and jump up and down on chromium steels to make me feel less inadequate.



Captaincaed, you might want to talk to this guy; go to the 4:00 mark for cut-test.


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## calostro5 (Oct 9, 2019)

OnionSlicer said:


> Not sure what you mean, are you talking about sawing off the metal butt, or even more off the handle? I think I'd rather just get a different knife if I didn't like the balance that much.



I read wrong Tour previous comment. I unterstood that you had ground tje knife.
I confused gift with grind.


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## captaincaed (Oct 9, 2019)

Bobby2shots said:


> Captaincaed, you might want to talk to this guy; go to the 4:00 mark for cut-test.



I mean, I guess? You can make a bronze age knife capable of cutting paper once. 

I'm all ready to admit I suck at sharpening but I have no sense of what type of edge that knife had


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## ian (Oct 9, 2019)

Bobby2shots said:


> Captaincaed, you might want to talk to this guy; go to the 4:00 mark for cut-test.





captaincaed said:


> I mean, I guess? You can make a bronze age knife capable of cutting paper once.
> 
> I'm all ready to admit I suck at sharpening but I have no sense of what type of edge that knife had



As some consolation, when I was starting out sharpening I did a Vic for someone and found it the worst knife to sharpen that I’d tried. Somehow I haven’t done one since, though, so I have no recent experience, and many on here seem to be pleased with the steel.


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## Bobby2shots (Oct 9, 2019)

ian said:


> As some consolation, when I was starting out sharpening I did a Vic for someone and found it the worst knife to sharpen that I’d tried. Somehow I haven’t done one since, though, so I have no recent experience, and many on here seem to be pleased with the steel.



I haven't sharpened any of my Vic's,,, mostly because some are brand new and haven't been used yet,,, but, I bought my 6" Vic Rosewood chef/utility knife 10 months ago, and it's still razor sharp. All I've ever done to it is a very light feathering with either a steel, or my Idahone ceramic rod. Less than 10 seconds, and I'm back to "like new". I use that knife every day, sometimes 4-5 times a day. It's that experience which motivated me to buy a few more Vic's. (10" Rosewood/ 8" Fibrox/ Chinese Cleaver/ Rosewood paring knife). Had I known before buying some of my Wusthofs, I would probably have gone all the way with the Vic's. While I don't find them particularly "pretty",,, they've really grown on me. I love the feel and grip of the Rosewood handles too. It may not be readily noticeable or evident when you simply look at these knives, but a LOT of thought has obviously gone into the materials, ergonomics, and ease of maintenance. I love these Vic's, and may buy a few more. I may think differently after the first sharpening, but I really can't fathom that possibility given my present experience with them.


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## captaincaed (Oct 9, 2019)

ian said:


> As some consolation, when I was starting out sharpening I did a Vic for someone and found it the worst knife to sharpen that I’d tried. Somehow I haven’t done one since, though, so I have no recent experience, and many on here seem to be pleased with the steel.


I just remember spending ages on the 220 stone, much longer than with any other knife. Then when it came to refinement, no dice.


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## Bobby2shots (Oct 9, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I just remember spending ages on the 220 stone, much longer than with any other knife. Then when it came to refinement, no dice.



I can't imagine starting out on such a coarse stone, unless the blade was damaged in some manner. If the knife needed sharpening by virtue of the fact that it had become dull, to the point where a honing was insufficient, I'd probably start out with a trailing edge sharpening on a 1K stone.(depending on the quality of the stone of course). Sharpen 'til you feel the very first sign of a burr, by sliding your thumb "ACROSS" the blade in both directions. Don't wait 'til you have a large burr completely bent over to one side. You'll easily feel the difference in sharpness on one side vs the other. Then, flip the knife and repeat on the other side until you can feel the same point of progress on the blade. Now you can remove the burr with a VERY GENTLE stropping stroke on both sides. You can either use the same stone for stropping, or go to something finer, until the thumb-test tells you the blade feels sharp in both directions as you slide your thumb across the blade. Once you're there, you can use a leather strop to clean up the edge,, and if you don't have one, even a rolled-up piece of damp newspaper will do.

To my way of thinking, coarse stones are strictly for repairing damaged edges (nicks, etc).

Check out Peter Nowlan's knife-sharpening videos. He's excellent as a teacher,,and a master sharpener.



Lesson #2;


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## ian (Oct 9, 2019)

Bobby2shots said:


> I can't imagine starting out on such a coarse stone, unless the blade was damaged in some manner. If the knife needed sharpening by virtue of the fact that it had become dull, to the point where a honing was insufficient, I'd probably start out with a trailing edge sharpening on a 1K stone.(depending on the quality of the stone of course). Sharpen 'til you feel the very first sign of a burr, by sliding your thumb "ACROSS" the blade in both directions. Don't wait 'til you have a large burr completely bent over to one side. You'll easily feel the difference in sharpness on one side vs the other. Then, flip the knife and repeat on the other side until you can feel the same point of progress on the blade. Now you can remove the burr with a VERY GENTLE stropping stroke on both sides. You can either use the same stone for stropping, or go to something finer, until the thumb-test tells you the blade feels sharp in both directions as you slide your thumb across the blade. Once you're there, you can use a leather strop to clean up the edge,, and if you don't have one, even a rolled-up piece of damp newspaper will do.
> 
> To my way of thinking, coarse stones are strictly for repairing damaged edges (nicks, etc).
> 
> Check out Peter Nowlan's knife-sharpening videos. He's excellent as a teacher,,and a master sharpener.




Fwiw, coarse stones are fine to sharpen on even if there’s no heavy damage. I’ll totally use coarse stones (eg 300 grit) to get out microchips. I don’t got time to wail on it with a 1k for 5 min...


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## Bobby2shots (Oct 9, 2019)

ian said:


> Fwiw, coarse stones are fine to sharpen on even if there’s no heavy damage. I’ll totally use coarse stones (eg 300 grit) to get out microchips. I don’t got time to wail on it with a 1k for 5 min...



I agree,,, micro-chipped, or any other damage, and very coarse is fine. If the edge is intact but dull, then I'll go to the finest stone I can go with,,, and usually for me, that's 1k. I won't automatically start on a much coarser stone if I can avoid it. Mind you, I'm not dealing with heavily rolled-over edges.

A friend recently gave me 15 knives to sharpen for her. She got those knives at the local Centraide store,,,, that's an outfit that sells donated goods. Those knives were in terrible condition. I've never seen edges this bad. The best ones were extremely rolled over along their entire length, and some of the blades were actually split or cracked. All, with the exception of one forged German knife, were garbage. Most of them probably cost well under $10. when new, and most of those cost her under $1. I sharpened them anyway, but I didn't even go to the stones,,, I just ran them through a Chef'sChoice 1520 electric knife sharpener and made them passably usable, and able to smoothly cut paper. On stones, it would have been a several day freebie job. The German knife was worth sharpening however, and it turned out A-1. She was thrilled with all of them however.


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## captaincaed (Oct 10, 2019)

Depends how dull the knife is. These were pretty dull.


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## Ceriano (Jul 6, 2020)

Does the 6” ikon make a good all around utility knife? Our local Marshall’s carries them for about $50.


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 6, 2020)

Ceriano said:


> Does the 6” ikon make a good all around utility knife? Our local Marshall’s carries them for about $50.



Are you sure about that model name? There's a Classic IKON, and the "IKON". The difference between the two is in the handle materials. The "Classic IKON" has POM handles, and the IKON has African Blackwood handles, and the IKON is the more expensive of the two.. They typically retail between $90--$170. depending on the specific model you choose. The price you show ($50.), is a great price,,,,, if it's indeed the Classic Ikon or Ikon series. Wusthof has a lower-end series called the "Gourmet" series, and those are the budget series.

One nice feature about the IKON and Classic Ikon is the half-bolster design which allows for a variety of grip styles (pinch-grip, etc) and makes it easier to sharpen (compared to the full bolster models like the "Classic" series.

Wusthof has so many different versions of these so-called "utility" knives that it can be confusing. There's the taller "chef's style" and the "wide chef's style",,, and many more,,, so choose carefully. Some slicer/carver models are not tall enough to allow proper knuckle clearance for chopping/dicing, and are more suited to slicing/carving. You also want to ensure that the edge-type suits your need (serrated vs regular). I would highly recommend you stay away from serrated edge in a do-all- utility knife.

As for overall quality,,, the Classic,,,, Classic Ikon,,, and IKon,,, are indestructable, and they'll probably look as good 40 years from now. They can be incredibly sharp out of the box ( 14 degrees for western style models/ 10 degress for their Asian style knives). Both the Classic Ikon and IKON can be a bit handle-heavy if that matters to you. Overall fit & finish is top-notch. Rockwell hardness is 58.

A 6" utility knife, is the most frequently used knife in my kitchen. Personally, I tend to prefer a somewhat straighter edge utility/sandwich/petty knife over one that has a pronounced belly for chopping/dicing, where I generally prefer an 8" or 10" chef's knife.

Most of my "utility/petty knives fall into the 4.5"-6" range and include Wusthof Classic Ikon,,Shun,,,, Miyabi,,Zwilling Pro,,, and Victorinox Rosewood. I suppose my Wusthof Classic Ikon 7" santoku would also fall within that utility-knife category. If you're not into sharpening with stones, etc. I would recommend the Victorinox Fibrox or Victorinox Rosewood (same knife/different handles) which can be very easy to maintain with a decent butcher steel and ceramic honing rod.

Check out that Marshall's deal that you mentioned,,, and good luck.


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## Ceriano (Jul 6, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Are you sure about that model name? There's a Classic IKON, and the "IKON". The difference between the two is in the handle materials. The "Classic IKON" has POM handles, and the IKON has African Blackwood handles, and the IKON is the more expensive of the two.. They typically retail between $90--$170. depending on the specific model you choose. The price you show ($50.), is a great price,,,,, if it's indeed the Classic Ikon or Ikon series. Wusthof has a lower-end series called the "Gourmet" series, and those are the budget series.
> 
> One nice feature about the IKON and Classic Ikon is the half-bolster design which allows for a variety of grip styles (pinch-grip, etc) and makes it easier to sharpen (compared to the full bolster models like the "Classic" series.
> 
> ...



No it was the classic ikon with synthetic handles. surlatable has it for $90 on sale. I guess the 6” is not really in demand. I’ll take a picture if I go back. I was looking for a cheap cutting board.


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## Benuser (Jul 6, 2020)

Ceriano said:


> Does the 6” ikon make a good all around utility knife? Our local Marshall’s carries them for about $50.


Hard to imagine where people use those 'utility knives' for. It's a very small chef's. Too small. A large part is taken by the upswing (the belly) towards the high tip.
It's often one of the numerous unused parts of a set. For the money you can get a decent 23cm chef's in carbon steel (C60 @60Rc) by Pallarès Solsona.
By the way, the Wüsthof will require a good sharpening straight out of the box. Comes with a V-edge at an angle the steel can't take or hold. Have seen very spectacular burrs and wire-edges with them. This kind of steel would benefit from a convexed edge, and the removal of the very pronounced shoulders — where bevel and face meet.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 6, 2020)

Henks & Wussy's almost never see in pro kitchens they all had those full heel bolsters when I started in early 1970's.

Forschners were plentiful. Paid 9.00 for my first 10" rosewood Forchner Honed them on steels & sharpened on large King 1K. Never let them get too dull. Wore down a quite a few Forschners with massive cutting for up to 2,000 person banquets.

Got my first carbon Masamoto 1982 never looked back. These days you can get great Japan gyuto stainless clad with carbon core steel. 200-300$ price range get blades that will blow your mind. All you need is one good gyuto to see the light. 

You can use your Wussy's & Vic's. as beater knives doesn't make since to keep buying German & Swiss blades in quantity. Or trying save money buying a cheap not so great Japanese blade.


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2020)

A short utility knife that gives some of a Chef/Gyuto advantages is a Santoku. That's my take. Flat portion of even a 180mm Gyuto is still very small, and most are a bit too narrow to be truly efficient.

A typical utility knife SHOULD be even narrower but straighter, lighter, nimble and apt to be just that - utilitarian.


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2020)

Here's a duo that will do all of your basic preps: Victorinox Rosewood Santoku, Victorinox Fibrox 6 inch "Chef"/Utility. Will cost possibly less than the 6" Ikon, Santoku is a nimble and thin little beast with a very flat design that combines most advantages of a Santoku, Nakiri, Bunka. The Fibrox utility with a plastic handle will be your perfect small butchery/light preps of aromatics and smaller stuff. Need a workhouse too? Add the Victorinox Rosewood 10" Chef. A regular workhouse for smaller places/wary people? The 8" of the same. Total US budget I surmised would be around 50+20+50. 

Need to know how to sharpen, and to make the best of sharpening soft SS, to enjoy the full potential.


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## Benuser (Jul 6, 2020)

The Wüsthof are 15cm. The smallest gyuto I know is 18cm. The Wüsthof has a high tip and a corresponding large belly. A traditional gyuto has a lower tip. I would prefer a 18cm gyuto over most santokus if it isn't too narrow. The gyuto allows 'guillotine and glide', with the santoku only push-cutting is possible without problems with the low tip.


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 6, 2020)

Ceriano said:


> No it was the classic ikon with synthetic handles. surlatable has it for $90 on sale. I guess the 6” is not really in demand. I’ll take a picture if I go back. I was looking for a cheap cutting board.



OK, looking forward to the pics. If it is indeed their "utility model", it has a straighter edge without a pronounced belly like their "cook's knife" has. Personally, I find that straighter edge style much more useful as a general utility knife. That said, my Miyabi and Shun utility knives dohave somewhat of a belly, as does my Zwilling Pro utility. Compared to the Wusthof "utility,," they're taller as well, which helps a bit when scooping up diced veggies, etc. (if that's important to you). As I said above, I tend to prefer an 8" chef's knife for dicing/chopping.

here by the way, is a pic of the 6" utility version;









6


CLASSIC IKON knives feature a distinctive, double bolster design for professional-style heft, exceptional balance and beauty. The handle is made of a highly durable synthetic material – Polyoxymethylene (POM) – which has a tighter molecular structure to resist fading and discoloration. The...




wusthof.ca





and here's the 6" cook's knife;









6


CLASSIC IKON knives feature a distinctive, double bolster design for professional-style heft, exceptional balance and beauty. The handle is made of a highly durable synthetic material – Polyoxymethylene (POM) – which has a tighter molecular structure to resist fading and discoloration. The...




wusthof.ca


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 6, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Here's a duo that will do all of your basic preps: Victorinox Rosewood Santoku, Victorinox Fibrox 6 inch "Chef"/Utility. Will cost possibly less than the 6" Ikon, Santoku is a nimble and thin little beast with a very flat design that combines most advantages of a Santoku, Nakiri, Bunka. The Fibrox utility with a plastic handle will be your perfect small butchery/light preps of aromatics and smaller stuff. Need a workhouse too? Add the Victorinox Rosewood 10" Chef. A regular workhouse for smaller places/wary people? The 8" of the same. Total US budget I surmised would be around 50+20+50.
> 
> Need to know how to sharpen, and to make the best of sharpening soft SS, to enjoy the full potential.



As the owner of most of the knives you've mentioned, I wholeheartedly agree. That said, my 6" Vic Rosewood Utility is without a doubt, the easiest knife to keep sharp that I've ever owned. Purchased in Nov. 2018, and only maintained with light touches from my butcher-steel and ceramic honing rod, it's still a good way off from requiring a sharpening on stones. See-through tomato sliced are a breeze.


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 6, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Hard to imagine where people use those 'utility knives' for.
> 
> You might be surprised, especially for making sandwiches,,, or carving up one of those Costco B=B=Q chickens, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Ceriano (Jul 6, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> OK, looking forward to the pics. If it is indeed their "utility model", it has a straighter edge without a pronounced belly like their "cook's knife" has. Personally, I find that straighter edge style much more useful as a general utility knife. That said, my Miyabi and Shun utility knives dohave somewhat of a belly, as does my Zwilling Pro utility. Compared to the Wusthof "utility,," they're taller as well, which helps a bit when scooping up diced veggies, etc. (if that's important to you). As I said above, I tend to prefer an 8" chef's knife for dicing/chopping.
> 
> here by the way, is a pic of the 6" utility version;
> 
> ...



No it was the second one. 6" cook's knife. They also had a set for $299 or $399. It was the classic set I believe. again I wasn't shopping for a knife up there  









Wüsthof Classic Ikon Chef’s Knife | Sur La Table


Wusthof Classic Ikon Chefs Knives




www.surlatable.com


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2020)

Benuser said:


> The Wüsthof are 15cm. The smallest gyuto I know is 18cm. The Wüsthof has a high tip and a corresponding large belly. A traditional gyuto has a lower tip. I would prefer a 18cm gyuto over most santokus if it isn't too narrow. The gyuto allows 'guillotine and glide', with the santoku only push-cutting is possible without problems with the low tip.



There are 150mm Gyuto, and I kindly disagree that a Santoku cannot guillotine and glide. Even a Victo can and it’s short without much or a curve. Of course stacks or produce has to be fitting. Which is why I only advise of Santokus when the OP seems to be asking for short but all-around Gyuto like usage. Whenever the 200mm mark is hit a Gyuto is the best choice. Shorter than that it really depends on profile, used techniques, and end results - Santokus can be marvelous knives at that.

With all due respect of course.


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 6, 2020)

Benuser said:


> *The Wüsthof are 15cm. The smallest gyuto I know is 18cm. The Wüsthof has a high tip and a corresponding large belly.* A traditional gyuto has a lower tip. I would prefer a 18cm gyuto over most santokus if it isn't too narrow. The gyuto allows 'guillotine and glide', with the santoku only push-cutting is possible without problems with the low tip.



You're not describing the correct knife.... the 6" utility is straight, and quite narrow. The 6" "cook's knife" is the knife you're describing.


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2020)

He was describing exactly the right thing and was right in his assessment of the thing. As per the OP- Ikon Classic 6 inches Chef. I might disagree with him on the Santoku thing his points were valuable still.


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## Ceriano (Jul 6, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> You're not describing the correct knife.... the 6" utility is straight, and quite narrow. The 6" "cook's knife" is the knife you're describing.



Yes 6” cook’s knife  I prefer longer chef knives, I was wondering if this would make a decent all around utility knife. Sorry for confusion.


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## Ceriano (Jul 6, 2020)

Here is the set online: they have better deals in store.



https://tjmaxx.tjx.com/store/jump/product/home-shop-by-category-kitchen-tabletop-dinnerware/Made-In-Germany-7pc-Classic-Ikon-Block-Set/1000560683?colorId=NS1003537&pos=1:9&N=4204405889


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2020)

Ceriano said:


> Here is the set online: they have better deals in store.
> 
> 
> 
> https://tjmaxx.tjx.com/store/jump/product/home-shop-by-category-kitchen-tabletop-dinnerware/Made-In-Germany-7pc-Classic-Ikon-Block-Set/1000560683?colorId=NS1003537&pos=1:9&N=4204405889



I think that, of all due sense replies posted here... DON’T buy a set.

or at least if you will tell us the One. We’ll keep you two days under strict custody, allowed to see only pure nymphomaniac barely legal virgins, then will ask of you what each of the knife in the set is about - or as @Benuser so rightly said, not so much about anything at all - and if you can’t tell what knife is what, what length and for what... don’t buy the damn set.

Agree with anyone you will here... just DON’T buy a set.


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## Ceriano (Jul 6, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I think that, of all due sense replies posted here... DON’T buy a set.
> 
> or at least if you will tell us the One. We’ll keep you two days under strict custody, allowed to see only pure nymphomaniac barely legal virgins, then will ask of you what each of the knife in the set is about - or as @Benuser so rightly said, not so much about anything at all - and if you can’t tell what knife is what, what length and for what... don’t buy the damn set.
> 
> Agree with anyone you will here... just DON’T buy a set.



no worries I wasn’t planning on buying a set anyways!


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2020)

Even if you CAN tell... after all that... just forget about the supposedly nice knife block that will ultimately never fit any other one knife - and just btw little quizz; when sharp of your hands, do you want those knives fitting upside down too? - just don’t buy a set.


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## Bobby2shots (Jul 6, 2020)

I agree with ModRQC,,,, sets are generally a waste. May "look nice" on the kitchen counter, and that's about it. There's usually a couple that are useful and that's it. FWIW, I bought the Wusthof shears, and I completely regretted it. Mind you, they do have a few different models. The one I ordered was simply wayyyy to small for my hands. The handle loops were awful.

If you're not looking simply to impress someone,,,, and you need a good bread knife,,, get the 10" Mercer Millenia bread knife. It's dirt cheap, yet sharp as a scalpel. It's an amazing performer for the money. It was America's test Kitchen's 1st choice in that category.

Add a 3.5" Victorinox paring knife,,,, and the Vic 6" utility knife, plus an 8" or 10" Vic chef's knife, and you've got what amounts to a superb performing collection at an excellent price-point.


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## nexus1935 (Jul 6, 2020)

I'd highly recommend the Victorinox Rosewood 7.5" chef's knife - it has a much flatter profile than the popular 8" chef's knives, which is great for push cutting. I also like the versatility of the more pointed tip on this than their santoku:

https://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-2-Inch-Slicer-Rosewood-Handle/dp/B0019X1EIY


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 7, 2020)

nexus1935 said:


> I'd highly recommend the Victorinox Rosewood 7.5" chef's knife - it has a much flatter profile than the popular 8" chef's knives, which is great for push cutting. I also like the versatility of the more pointed tip on this than their santoku:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-2-Inch-Slicer-Rosewood-Handle/dp/B0019X1EIY



Have not looked at Vic's online used to get my Forschners at resturant supply stores here. Liked the old narrow thick boning knives. The Vic. 10.25 wavy edge is a great sandwich knife. The site you posted from Amazon tells little history of Forschners & how they dropped the name now everything is Victorinox. Like they mentioned can be sharpened over & over. Have a soft spot no pun intended for Forschners used chef knives, boning, meat Carver's, slicers, all from Forschner line. They got the job done.

That all changed with Japanese carbon steel. Thinner grinds, better edge retention, easy to get very sharp & touch up quickly on a stone. Very important in a busy production kitchen.


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## ModRQC (Jul 7, 2020)

I'd certainly like a reputable J brand making knives in the quality/price bracket of the Victorinox with a better steel. That would be awesome. Think I'd buy them by the crates.


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## nexus1935 (Jul 7, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I'd certainly like a reputable J brand making knives in the quality/price bracket of the Victorinox with a better steel. That would be awesome. Think I'd buy them by the crates.


Sign me up when you find them! 

I picked up that 7.5" Victorinox (that I linked above) for $32, which I think is an awesome value. Sure it's no Japanese knife, but compared to Zwilling / Wusthof price points, it's much cheaper and a better profile for my push cutting style.


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