# Beef Stock



## Rangen (Feb 2, 2022)

Sometimes it seems that beef stock is the Great Undiscussed Subject in cooking. There is no substitute for a deep, rich beef stock in many soups and stews. But my experiences suggest that bones won't do it, and you need a bunch of meat, which means you spend a bunch of money. If there's a way to avoid it, I have not found it (cheats with chicken do not count). So I just loosen my wallet and make it happen.

I've tried a bunch of beef stock recipes, and the one I like comes from the America's Test Kitchen Soups And Stews cookbook. You brown a bunch of beef shank or chuck+marrowbones, along with 1 halved onion per 6 lbs of meat, deglaze with red wine, reduce that, sweat the meat (and bones, if using), add water, and simmer for a couple of hours.

It's great. I'm ready to make some more. But it occurred to me that the best beef stock-type flavor I've ever had is from oxtails, not shank.

So, yeah. I have, um, 35 lbs of oxtails coming tomorrow. Let's hope it makes the beef stock of my dreams. I think it will. If it doesn't, well, I have two oxtail stew recipes that I adore.


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## Ekim317 (Feb 2, 2022)

I agree, there really is no substitute for homemade beef stock. I usually stick with beef shanks I get at the local Asian market for pretty cheap. I'll grab some shitake mushrooms to throw in there if they've got them and I'm feeling fancy. Once finished, I usually reduced it down considerably to save precious freezer space.

And oxtail prices have gotten out of control in my area. I grew up loving oxtail soup but at like $12.99 a pound, I can't justify the price just to make a simple soup, when most of it's weight is bones. But here you are ordering 35 lbs of it. Maybe I just need to man up lol.


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## M1k3 (Feb 2, 2022)

For meat, lots of tough connective tissue will flavor the stock more. That's why the oxtail is so good for flavor.


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## kpham12 (Feb 2, 2022)

Rangen said:


> Sometimes it seems that beef stock is the Great Undiscussed Subject in cooking. There is no substitute for a deep, rich beef stock in many soups and stews. But my experiences suggest that bones won't do it, and you need a bunch of meat, which means you spend a bunch of money. If there's a way to avoid it, I have not found it (cheats with chicken do not count). So I just loosen my wallet and make it happen.
> 
> I've tried a bunch of beef stock recipes, and the one I like comes from the America's Test Kitchen Soups And Stews cookbook. You brown a bunch of beef shank or chuck+marrowbones, along with 1 halved onion per 6 lbs of meat, deglaze with red wine, reduce that, sweat the meat (and bones, if using), add water, and simmer for a couple of hours.
> 
> ...



Where do you store so much oxtail? 




Ekim317 said:


> I agree, there really is no substitute for homemade beef stock. I usually stick with beef shanks I get at the local Asian market for pretty cheap. I'll grab some shitake mushrooms to throw in there if they've got them and I'm feeling fancy. Once finished, I usually reduced it down considerably to save precious freezer space.
> 
> And oxtail prices have gotten out of control in my area. I grew up loving oxtail soup but at like $12.99 a pound, I can't justify the price just to make a simple soup, when most of it's weight is bones. But here you are ordering 35 lbs of it. Maybe I just need to man up lol.



Yeah, oxtail prices are ridiculous. Sometimes I get a hookup from a restaurant and piggyback on their order, but otherwise beef neck bones are a really good alternative. A lot of meat and connective tissue for like half the price of oxtail. You do trade some of the richness of oxtail for slightly stronger “beefy” flavor, but still delicious.


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## Rangen (Feb 2, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> Where do you store so much oxtail?



My plan is half in my stockpot, half in my freezer. But I have never set my gaze on 35 lbs of oxtail before, and it's possible that the reality will disrupt my plans.


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## btbyrd (Feb 2, 2022)

There was a semi-recent thread about beef stock. I'll just reiterate what I said there:

"The key to good stock making is getting a good balance between bones/feet, which contribute body, and protein, which contributes flavor. The aforementioned shins and shanks are good choices, as are oxtail, short ribs, and spare ribs. These cuts have a good ready-made balance between bone and flesh, and so you can extract a flavorful and gelatinous stock by using them alone. I used to live in Chicago and I could get oxtail and short ribs for next to nothing at my local supermarket, but now that I'm in NC, these cuts are all pretty expensive for stockmaking -- even things like shank. This is surprising, since I can get very good ribeye for like $5.99 a pound here (which is insane). If that's your situation, you can use a combination of bones/feet and ground meat to approximate the result of using more extravagant cuts. Or even just use ground beef and dope the resulting stock with gelatin (the main thing that bones provide). As always, brown the bajabbers out of everything before commencing with the stock making. Roast bones off in the oven, brown ground meat up in a wide pan (in batches, if necessary).

To extract maximum body and flavor in the minimum amount of time, use a pressure cooker. Pressure cooked stocks are awesome, and there's no reason not to use them if you're cooking at home.

I mentioned Minor's base earlier in the thread as a good off-the-shelf beef stock for French onion soup. It is. But I also like using Minor's bases as part of the salt component to finish homemade broths/soups. It's like using meaty salt to season your soup. I also like adding a dollop of More Than Gourmet's high quality unsalted bases/demis to homemade stocks. And kombu, marmite, and MSG. And depending on the use, coating the bones with tomato paste before roasting."


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## Rangen (Feb 2, 2022)

I admit to a strong skepticism about base. Part of that is taste memories from experiments, part is a native disinclination toward the whole idea, but part of it is a resonant memory from one of those "my path to becoming a chef" books, in which the chef tastes from a large stockpot and says, in thunderous tones:

"WHO has put BASE in this stock??"


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## ian (Feb 2, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> coating the bones with tomato paste before roasting



This doesn’t quite compute to me. Doesn’t the moisture just make it harder for stuff to brown? Why not just cook the tomato paste in the pot a bit? Or is it more a time saving measure, where you’re sacrificing some browning of the bones etc in favor of a good deep and slow tomato paste browning.


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## MontezumaBoy (Feb 2, 2022)

100% agree with;

"To extract maximum body and flavor in the minimum amount of time, use a pressure cooker. Pressure cooked stocks are awesome, and there's no reason not to use them if you're cooking at home."

Haven't tried the base ... and I have roasted the bones with & without tomato paste but couldn't say which I prefer ... will do that again ...


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## M1k3 (Feb 2, 2022)

ian said:


> This doesn’t quite compute to me. Doesn’t the moisture just make it harder for stuff to brown? Why not just cook the tomato paste in the pot a bit? Or is it more a time saving measure, where you’re sacrificing some browning of the bones etc in favor of a good deep and slow tomato paste browning.


The little browned/burnt bits? When I'd use tomato paste, I'd roast veggies separately from bones with some dollops of the paste, no smear.


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## btbyrd (Feb 2, 2022)

I don't know where I saw the tomato paste thing first. Maybe ChefSteps. I've seen other chefs do it since. You don't use a large amount, so it doesn't really interfere with browning much (especially if you're running in a 450 oven with convection). It's not something I do all the time, but if I know that I'll be using the stock in a dish where tomato would be welcome, it's a nice addition.


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## Michi (Feb 2, 2022)

I usually use a mix of marrow bones and neck bones. The neck bones are cheap and usually have quite a bit of meat left on them.


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## KingShapton (Feb 3, 2022)

Oxtail is great for this!


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## coxhaus (Feb 3, 2022)

It's going to get really cold here in Texas and I am going to make beef stock again as my friend gave me more beef bones. Maybe tomorrow if not then the next day.
I roast the bones in the oven then boil them with carrots, onions, and celery. I plan to add more water because last time I only ended up with 1 quart of rich beef broth. Hopefully it turns out better this time.


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## Mikeadunne (Feb 3, 2022)

Brown the bones first, paint the tomato paste on the bones (literally with a brush) and leave in the oven for another 10 mins or so - so the tomato paste cooks/caramelizes slightly. Careful though bc the tomato paste can burn and then you’ve gotta scrape it off and it’s a pain in the ass.


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## Rangen (Feb 3, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> It's going to get really cold here in Texas and I am going to make beef stock again as my friend gave me more beef bones. Maybe tomorrow if not then the next day.
> I roast the bones in the oven then boil them with carrots, onions, and celery. I plan to add more water because last time I only ended up with 1 quart of rich beef broth. Hopefully it turns out better this time.



Don't know how much it matters for the carrots and celery, but roasting the onions too seems to make a big and important difference.


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## JASinIL2006 (Feb 3, 2022)

Aside from the taste it contributes on its own, I would think the acidity of of the tomato paste might help extract some minerals from the bones. Many recipes I've seen call for a bit of vinegar to do the same. 

My beef stock is purely bones, with marrow as much as a possible. I can buy 60# of bones from a local meat locker, roast them, and simmer overnight. I make gallons of stock at a time, reduce it, and freeze the cubes to use later. I've never found pressure cooker stock to come close to a long-simmered version in depth of flavor. Just my experience....


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## tgfencer (Feb 3, 2022)

At the butcher shop I work for we use almost exclusively beef neck and knuckle bones (the others like oxtail or marrow bones cost much more, are smaller, and don't provide any significant flavor or gelatin advantage over neck and knuckle). We make pure beef stock, no flavor, no tomatoes, no veg, nothing. Basically a mother stock. It's easy enough to add these flavorings into a soup or dish later on for most dishes, although obviously making a stock for a specific dish changes things. The neck bones provide more flavor, while the knuckles provide more gelatin. The combo is key here, one without the other doesn't produce as well-rounded a stock. The proportions of neck to knuckle are a matter of taste, boiling down to more flavor vs gelatin.

Roast the bones in a 475-500 degree oven until they are very dark brown, but pull them out before they burn. Throw the lot into a pot, add water until the bones are just covered. Bring to a hard boil, then lower the heat until you just get the odd lazy bubble. Let it go overnight (or however reduced you want it). Strain it, let it cool, then remove the fat. What you're left with should be dark, dark brown stock with a jiggle that just won't quit (and only gets sexier the more you let it reduce).


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## coxhaus (Feb 3, 2022)

I guess I need to ask my buddy for neck bones. I think he is giving me knuckle bones. Can you tell? Here is a link to a picture of my bones of my latest try.
(32) Dark Beef Stock for French Onion Soup | Page 2 | Kitchen Knife Forums

PS
I think I have both neck bones and knuckle bones.


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## M1k3 (Feb 3, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I guess I need to ask my buddy for neck bones. I think he is giving me knuckle bones. Can you tell? Here is a link to a picture of my bones of my latest try.
> (32) Dark Beef Stock for French Onion Soup | Page 2 | Kitchen Knife Forums


Knuckles.

Here's a picture of neck bones.


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## chefwp (Feb 3, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> I don't know where I saw the tomato paste thing first. Maybe ChefSteps. I've seen other chefs do it since. You don't use a large amount, so it doesn't really interfere with browning much (especially if you're running in a 450 oven with convection). It's not something I do all the time, but if I know that I'll be using the stock in a dish where tomato would be welcome, it's a nice addition.


we used to brush a bit of tomato paste on veal knuckles right at the end of roasting, before they went into the pot.


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## coxhaus (Feb 3, 2022)

The broth I cooked today was too thin. I will roast more bones tomorrow. I will roast the bones darker with onions in the morning. Then I will add them to a larger pot and boil it all. I will be painting tomato paste on the bones at the end. 

I hope I am not missing anything. I will read the thread again in the morning drinking coffee. It is still too cold in Texas to do anything outside I might as well cook.


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## btbyrd (Feb 4, 2022)

If you want it thick, use a pressure cooker.

And if you use a pressure cooker, cook the meat and bones only and infuse aromatics at the end. Veg gets really sweet and the flavors dull if you pressure cook them for as long as it takes to cook the bones.


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## coxhaus (Feb 4, 2022)

Round 2. I poured off the 10 quart pot into my revere ware pot 16 quart. So now I have broth in the big pot. I am using a large Lodge cast iron pan. I set the oven on 450 degrees which I will push to 500 at the end. I was afraid to use the made-in pot at that high of temperature and I am hoping the cast iron will browns better? I cooked the bones on the stove top as the oven heated. I added the onion when I transfered to the oven. I ladeled the grease out on top. My job is to really darken the bones and onion this time.

Will it help or hurt to heat the broth now that everything is out waiting on the new set of bones? I won't cook flavor out right? I would like the broth to be hot when I add the bones.


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## MontezumaBoy (Feb 4, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> Round 2. I poured off the 10 quart pot into my revere ware pot 16 quart. So now I have broth in the big pot. I am using a large Lodge cast iron pan. I set the oven on 450 degrees which I will push to 500 at the end. I was afraid to use the made-in pot at that high of temperature and I am hoping the cast iron will browns better? I cooked the bones on the stove top as the oven heated. I added the onion when I transfered to the oven. I ladeled the grease out on top. My job is to really darken the bones and onion this time.
> 
> Will it help or hurt to heat the broth now that everything is out waiting on the new set of bones? I won't cook flavor out right? I would like the broth to be hot when I add the bones.
> 
> ...



For browning I always use al 1/2 &/or 1/4 sheets (no Teflon since you really want the fond) ... cast iron should work but it looks like there is a bit of crowding in that pan (my $0.02). You can heat the stock but extraction should (could ?) be better starting cold. Remember to deglaze the pans/cast iron with a light sauvignon blanc and put back in the stock pot (another reason I don't use the cast iron given the seasoned surface could suffer with de-glazing).

FWIW - if you want that fat out you might want to re-strain through a small sieve ... but since you are adding more fat & will likely need to do it again just wait. Don't boil the stock IMO unless you don't care about emulsifying the fat. 

Best of luck ...


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## JASinIL2006 (Feb 4, 2022)

MontezumaBoy said:


> For browning I always use al 1/2 &/or 1/4 sheets (no Teflon since you really want the fond) ... cast iron should work but it looks like there is a bit of crowding in that pan (my $0.02). You can heat the stock but extraction should (could ?) be better starting cold. Remember to deglaze the pans/cast iron with a light sauvignon blanc and put back in the stock pot (another reason I don't use the cast iron given the seasoned surface could suffer with de-glazing).
> 
> FWIW - if you want that fat out you might want to re-strain through a small sieve ... but since you are adding more fat & will likely need to do it again just wait. Don't boil the stock IMO unless you don't care about emulsifying the fat.
> 
> Best of luck ...



I'm curious... if the bones are roasted and presumably hot when added to the stockpot, what difference would water temperature make?


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## coxhaus (Feb 4, 2022)

That old Lodge cast iron pan was my old camp fire pan in my younger days. It is thicker than any other cast iron I own. I will try some Sauvignon Blanc to deglaze with. I have my doubts about hurting it as that seasoning is very old. 

I can use full sheets in my oven but they are a pain to clean.


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## Rangen (Feb 4, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I can use full sheets in my oven but they are a pain to clean.



Not so hard, if you're using wine and a spatula, which you would be.


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## tgfencer (Feb 4, 2022)

Rangen said:


> Not so hard, if you're using wine and a spatula, which you would be.



Or parchment paper if you don't care about deglazing.


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## MontezumaBoy (Feb 4, 2022)

JASinIL2006 said:


> I'm curious... if the bones are roasted and presumably hot when added to the stockpot, what difference would water temperature make?


 
Really more for clarity then extraction I suppose ... if the stock is hot to start & you add hot(ter) bones it is more likely then not you will hit a boil first ... just an opinion really / I have done it both ways - but for the sake of repeating what has been said / pressure cooker is mo mo betta but if you don't have one & want to spend the time (the house smells great all day).


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## M1k3 (Feb 4, 2022)

JASinIL2006 said:


> I'm curious... if the bones are roasted and presumably hot when added to the stockpot, what difference would water temperature make?


I'm not sure if it really makes a difference in the real world, but, I was told it brings everything up to temperature at roughly the same time. Getting more consistent flavor. I never bothered to experiment.


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## coxhaus (Feb 4, 2022)

Here we are on bones. I will transfer to pot with broth. I will deglaze the cast iron after it cools a minute.

My pan is fine after deglazing with a New Zealand wine, Sauvignon Blanc. We are now in the boil cycle again. I think this works better than before.

PS
The pan was really hot and hard to hold with 1 hot pad.


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## coxhaus (Feb 4, 2022)

So, I tasted the stock and it really tasted good. I turned the burner off and I will deal with it tomorrow. I have drunk too much tonight to think about it.


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## JASinIL2006 (Feb 5, 2022)

MontezumaBoy said:


> Really more for clarity then extraction I suppose ... if the stock is hot to start & you add hot(ter) bones it is more likely then not you will hit a boil first ... just an opinion really / I have done it both ways - but for the sake of repeating what has been said / pressure cooker is mo mo betta but if you don't have one & want to spend the time (the house smells great all day).



The only time I have had clarity issues is when I let the stock get too far beyond a simmer. 

I’ve never been all that impressed with pressure cooker stock. When I make stock, I make several gallons, so a pressure cooker wouldn’t be very practical.


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## JASinIL2006 (Feb 5, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I'm not sure if it really makes a difference in the real world, but, I was told it brings everything up to temperature at roughly the same time. Getting more consistent flavor. I never bothered to experiment.



But then you don’t get to hear the hot bones crack when they hit cold water! Where’s the fun in that?


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## coxhaus (Feb 5, 2022)

I am finished for now. I ended up with almost 1 gal of rich stock. I have 7 pt. jars and part of 1.

The frozen jars were done first, then I had to wait for the dishwasher to wash the other jars so I could finish.


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## MontezumaBoy (Feb 5, 2022)

JASinIL2006 said:


> The only time I have had clarity issues is when I let the stock get too far beyond a simmer.
> 
> I’ve never been all that impressed with pressure cooker stock. When I make stock, I make several gallons, so a pressure cooker wouldn’t be very practical.



I hear the quantity issue but I am constantly making stock (of some variety since I love to do it) & have 2X Fisslers (10.6 & 8.5 quart) - FWIW - bought both off craigslist from people who had no idea what to use them for (+ Fissler had the 8.5 quart on sale for $150 right now) ... I just keep my eye out for neck bones on sale and vac seal them until I have want I want. 

As you say - if you don't let things boil for any extended period / clarity isn't an issue but the total time difference is considerable IMO ... each to their own ... when I am just futzing around I go old school / slow and low as well ... good for the soul ... I often clarify a certain amount of stock anyway for the presentation value so I am full of sh$t on that part anyway ... LOL


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## Rangen (Feb 5, 2022)

The oxtail stock is underway.

Inspired by this thread, I left out the veggies and am going for a "base" stock. I figure I can pull in veggies as appropriate for whatever recipes I use it in.

I'm using 18 lbs of oxtail. With these scrawny New Zealand oxtails, that's 6 of them. I had imagined that 18 lbs of oxtail would come near overflowing my 16 qt stockpot, but there's plenty of room.

I hadn't cut a whole oxtail in a while, and if I ever knew how to figure out where the segment separation point is, I had forgotten. Turned out to be pretty easy -- all the segments are very close to the same length, so I identified that length on the skinny part, where you can actually see the separation, and used a cut piece as a ruler to identify the location of the remaining cuts. Worked great.

I browned the oxtail segments dark in a 475 degree oven, poured off the fat, and deglazed the 1/2 sheet pans with an entire bottle of red Spanish wine (Rioja). Reduced that some, mostly to boil off the alcohol, and added it to the pot with the oxtails and the water.

I'm planning on a long gentle simmer. As in, until I go to bed, then start it back up in the morning. At least 12 hours, maybe more. That's worked well for me for chicken+pork stocks, and makes tons of sense to me for these tight sinewy impervious grass-fed tails. I'm very optimistic about the final result. And of course I'm trying not to think about the cost of this stock. It'll enhance a whole lot of meals, though.


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## coxhaus (Feb 5, 2022)

Pictures please. I am very interested in it even though our Texas cattle have no real tails as they are just fly swatters.

My bone packages are about 4 pounds each. Since I poured in my last quart batch of stock which was made with 3 packages of bones, I ended up with 7 packages of bones in this gallon of stock. For a total of around 28 pounds of bones in my stock.


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## Rangen (Feb 5, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> Pictures please. I am very interested in it even though our Texas cattle have no real tails as they are just fly swatters.



Well, I missed my chance to get the sexy browned out-of-the-oven glamour shot, but I can do:

Stock in progress


One of the oxtails from the freezer stash


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## coxhaus (Feb 6, 2022)

Does anybody blanch their bones before they roast them? I have been reading on the internet and some do.


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## Michi (Feb 6, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> Does anybody blanch their bones before they roast them? I have been reading on the internet and some do.


I never bothered. What for, if they are about to go into the oven? Maybe to reduce scum? But that’s easily taken care of with a strainer.


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## Michi (Feb 6, 2022)

Rangen said:


> I browned the oxtail segments dark in a 475 degree oven, poured off the fat, and deglazed the 1/2 sheet pans with an entire bottle of red Spanish wine (Rioja). Reduced that some, mostly to boil off the alcohol, and added it to the pot with the oxtails and the water.


Try making some clear oxtail soup. It's something truly special!


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## Rangen (Feb 6, 2022)

Michi said:


> Try making some clear oxtail soup. It's something truly special!



Thanks for the recommendation, and the link. I think I will do that at some point. 

I will be swimming against the tide, though. In the cookbook that contains one of the two oxtail stew recipes I favor (the other is Taiwanese), there is, next to the stew recipe, a recipe for clear oxtail soup. My wife wrote BOOOO! above it. Not because she dislikes it. Not because I have ever made it, or because she has ever tried it. Purely because she doesn't want me to get distracted from the important task of making the oxtail stew she loves.


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## Rangen (Feb 6, 2022)

Oxtail stock update: 12 hours into the simmer, and the meat is falling off the bones, and is surprisingly stringy, and still full of flavor. Which of course means that I need more simmering, because that flavor needs to be in the liquid.

When I take a spoonful out of the pot, and add a bit of salt, the taste is everything I'd hoped for. Oxtail strikes me as the beefiest of all beef, and that dark rich flavor is creating the stock of my dreams.


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## btbyrd (Feb 6, 2022)

Does anyone else find it weird that people are putting wine in their stock? I guess it's fine if you know that the stock is going in a dish where you'd also use wine, but I'd never do it if I was making a batch of general purpose stock.

Oxtail makes good stock. I use a mix of oxtail and short ribs as the basis of my pho broth. 90 minutes in the pressure cooker and there's no flavor left in them at all.


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## tgfencer (Feb 6, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> Does anyone else find it weird that people are putting wine in their stock? I guess it's fine if you know that the stock is going in a dish where you'd also use wine, but I'd never do it if I was making a batch of general purpose stock.
> 
> Oxtail makes good stock. I use a mix of oxtail and short ribs as the basis of my pho broth. 90 minutes in the pressure cooker and there's no flavor left in them at all.



As stated earlier, I tend to fall into the basic stock camp and so I agree with you. I can always add the wine later on and measure it out appropriately to the amount of stock I need to incorporate for a recipe. For instance, the latest batch of beef broth I made in January I've used for pho, french onion soup, risotto, ramen, beef pies, oxtail stew, pate gelee, biscuits and gravy, steak sauces, and other things I'm forgetting. Wouldn't have wanted to taste wine in all those things. Instead I just added the flavors I needed to make the dishes work when I needed them. A basic mother stock is more versatile and a clever cook know how to utilize and adapt it efficiently across a wide range of applications.


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## coxhaus (Feb 7, 2022)

You cannot pick out the wine flavor I added to my stock. It just adds depth. Same as the tomato. You cannot pick out the tomato flavor. I would not use my stock for PHO as it does not have the right spices. My wife made PHO a week or so ago and we made beef stock. It is different than stock I would use for French onion soup or any French or American dish. It has Asian spices in it.

I have PHO stock in my freezer. It tastes like what we eat out. The stock I made above is not like the stock in PHO that we eat out.


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## btbyrd (Feb 7, 2022)

If you make a basic stock you can add whatever spices and aromatics you want to it later.


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## coxhaus (Feb 7, 2022)

But our PHO broth is clear beef stock with anise, ginger, cinnamon, cloves and fish sauce in it. I have never had PHO with a thick rich hearty beef broth which is what I think I made above.
We used jar beef broth. I don't think I can tell the difference in broth that we eat out. I am still working out how to prepare the noodles as mine have not been as good.
Quick Beef Pho Recipe | Jet Tila | Food Network


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