# A Q&A from a customer interaction- A question about knife steels and quality?



## JBroida (Jan 14, 2014)

I had an interesting question from a customer today and wanted to post about it here, since i thought it was a great question and i'm sure many of you probably were thinking about the same thing...

Question- Is it true that white steel #1 is considered the top of the line steel since it is so clean and offers a blacksmith a "white canvas" more than the blue steels that have additional alloys?

Answer- I don't believe that any steel can be called top of the line... all of the steels require different skill sets to heat treat well. Even though blue steel is technically more forgiving in the HT process, it doesn't mean that a very skilled craftsman couldn't bring out the best in it through great finesse. White #1 is a very simple, very pure, and very high carbon steel, so it does require great skill to work with well, but there are a number of blacksmiths who i do not consider to be so great who often work with white #1 and get so-so results, so just seeing white #1 is not an indication of a high quality knife. Obviously, there is great potential with white #1 for a skilled craftsman to showcase his technique, there are only a few ways to know this for yourself with any certainty. First, try for yourself and see- this also means that you have to know enough to be able to assess the steel well. Second, rely on reputation- this only works when the people describing the steel know what they are talking about. Or third, find a retailer whom you can trust and who has experience using and sharpening the steel so that he/she can talk about it effectively- the only works if the retailer knows what they are talking about and has the experience and training to validate their opinion.

Anyways, the gist of this is that just knowing a steel type doesn't tell you if that steel has been forged and heat treated well. Even steels that seem simple and nothing special on paper can be amazing when skillfully forged and heat treated (aeb-l is a great example of this... when its great, it can be really great, but without a good heat treatment, its really nothing special).

Hope you guys enjoy this quick read.


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## bear1889 (Jan 14, 2014)

You know I was just wondering about the quality of blue carbon steel versus what carbon steel. Interesting. Thanks. So in essence it still boils down to who is working the steel?


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## JBroida (Jan 14, 2014)

yeah... pretty much


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## Anton (Jan 14, 2014)

Good stuff sir, thank you


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## XooMG (Jan 14, 2014)

This seems very closely tied to Murray Carter's public justification for switching predominantly to White #1. He could well be sincere, or he could be using it as a marketing technique to emphasize his competence as a master smith (something like, "I'm so awesome I need a steel that has infinite potential", which also subtly implies that inferior smiths will use Blue/other steels as a crutch or shortcut to a "good enough" knife). There's also some connection between the promotion of "pure" steel with the mysticism of tamahagane, which though a messy and unclean steel is generally very low alloy.

It's a shame the "not so great" smiths are almost always unnamed. I understand the reasoning for not disclosing information like that publicly...I guess sometimes user reviews and feedback help, but it seems that those who are qualified to have opinions tend to reserve their opinions. There are a handful of makers I'd _love_ to hear qualified opinions about, but typically the feedback I find is average purchase justification praise and confirmation bias, or vendor promotion.

Thanks Jon for posting your response on the matter.


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## JBroida (Jan 15, 2014)

nope... has nothing to do with murray... i think he does a great job with white #1... this was actually more in relation to a question asked about blue super steel and why more craftsmen arent using it in japan for kitchen knives


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## Lefty (Jan 15, 2014)

Sorry, I'm reading this after a call at work, so my brain might be a tad off but: 

As usual, I think Jon is very right. In a nutshell, he's saying that don't let the steel type be your guide, but rather allow for the maker to be. There are guys who do wonderful things with 1095, despite it being a fairly pedestrian carbon steel in the US, while the same can be said for other types, in Japan. To take this a step further, it could be argued that 52100 is an inferior steel to O1, but in our circle, guys like Bill Burke and More recently, Marko, have turned it into a bit of a hot steel. What it has come down to is that these guys put a crap to of effort and knowledge into what they're doing, which yields great results. 

For the record, White #1 as done by Murray Carter is exceptional (in my opinion). He takes it to a point that allows it to take an exceptionally keen edge, while maintaining some "spring" for durability. If you ask me, the majority of the chipping one might see with Murray's white #1 is as a result of cutting something too hard wit too fine of an edge. A chef knife like his was not made to ban up against bones, or cut through the grit found in a leek.

Steel type has been overhyped by many as a way to quantify hard-to-measure results, and in turn qualify a knife for a higher price tag. Let the proof be in the pudding, and not in the mix.


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## JBroida (Jan 15, 2014)

i was also thinking about how so many now days are using steels that have been popularized by people amazingly talented with them, but not having the same heat treatment means that the same steel will likely not perform the same way. This is not to say that many people cant do great things with the same steels, but it is to say that you cant rely in simply steel type when making decisions.


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## maxim (Jan 15, 2014)

I will also like to add to this that i have seen white 1 very in quality a lot so is with all other steels. White 1 or blue 2 is not all similar ! 
Have seen yellow 2 had more carbon in it then white 1, depending when it was made


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## JBroida (Jan 15, 2014)

very true


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## phan1 (Jan 15, 2014)

This is a good topic. In my experience, I've used W#1 which got very sharp and sharpened up super clean (no wire edges). Perfect on paper, but it wasn't the most practical knife for me. It rusted really easily and the edge retention wasn't great. I prefered my B#2 over it, just a more preactical knife. So it's really about what fits you.


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## jackslimpson (Jan 15, 2014)

I'm enjoying this topic, as well. 

My question is: how does one identify the exceptionally good craftsman by the steel? Do you know when you are sharpening for the first time? Are there tests that need be performed? Is there a way for a layman to recognize it?

Cheers,

Jack


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## JBroida (Jan 15, 2014)

like all things in life, a lot of it is experience. Without much experience and context, it will be hard to tell good from bad (which is why i address this in my answer on the previous page). Its also important to keep in mind that you should also be considering how well the steel works for your needs (with regard to edge retention, ease of sharpening, toughness, etc.).

Assessment can be done through structured tests (catra, etc.), but i feel like these only tell part of a story and would not be my personal choice. I think the best assessment can be done by someone who has used and sharpened a wide variety of things with a decent level of skill (in both use and sharpening). By both using and sharpening the knife and having relative context with regard to the performance of other knives, one can draw conclusions. What i'm trying to help people avoid here is the situation where they buy a knife, in say white #1, because they have heard white #1 is "the best steel ever", but without knowing who made it, if that craftsman does a good job with the steel, etc. People should be asking questions when they dont know and making sure the source of their answers has the knowledge to answer them adequately.

With regard to the last part of your question, "can a layman recognize it?", the answer is sometimes (but usually not in my experience), but it doesnt always matter. As i said above, if the steel is doing what you need, that should be good enough. Whether it is a good example of said steel or a sub-par one, will not matter so much if it gets the job done. But here is an example to help make sense of this. Lets take cars for example... lets say your first car was a honda civic and you dont have much experience with other cars. You later get a celica and think, 
"wow, this engine is great. I cant believe how much performance they get out of this. This is a great example of what can be done with these kinds of engines"

However, what you may not know is that the lotus elise has the same engine, but in that car, they really push the limits of what that engine can do, and, in my opinion, it is a better car overall when it comes to performance.

Will you ever know the difference? Maybe, or maybe not... it depends on what relative experience driving you have, and how much you understand about cars and engineering. Will it matter to you? Maybe, or maybe not... it really depends on your needs. Does it mean that the celica is a good example of that engine? No... the lotus is a good example of that engine... the celica is so-so at best.

Make sense?


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## phan1 (Jan 15, 2014)

Correct me if I'm wrong Jon, but it seems that it's pretty hard to get a poor Japanese knife in the US than it would be in Japan... I'm assuming that if you're a knifemaker in Japan, your product has to be damn good for it to actually have demand from overseas. Also, since they're aren't many physical places that specialize in Japanese knives (I can only name JKI and Korin), these places aren't going to want to carry a low quality product...


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## JBroida (Jan 15, 2014)

i think you have a little too much faith in people... let me give you an example... there are a number of wholesalers out there for a wide variety of products... these are often the guys who dictate what is or is not available internationally (or domestically on a larger scale). Many times, these guys arent experts in the things they sell, but even if they are, more often than not, they are interested in cost and ease of access that quality at all costs. Soy sauce is a good example... the best ones are not available in the US, but instead we end up with a bunch of different decent ones (but nothing special). Why would you expect the knife world to be different from this?


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## ChuckTheButcher (Jan 15, 2014)

I like the soy sauce analogy. That make a lot of since. I've never had really good soy sauce.


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## phan1 (Jan 15, 2014)

JBroida said:


> Soy sauce is a good example... the best ones are not available in the US, but instead we end up with a bunch of different decent ones (but nothing special). Why would you expect the knife world to be different from this?



I thought this because there aren't really many places to get Japanese knives from. I can get soy sauce anywhere, but I can only get Japanese knives from very, very few places (though that's changing). It's like buying foie gras rather than soy sauce; there's only a couple farms in the US that even make it, so if you buy US foie, the chances of getting something bad is low. Nevertheless, I stand corrected.


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## Olsen (Jan 29, 2014)

I totally agree. We often tend to focus too much on the quality of the equipment/materials (myself included) and tend to forget that a very large amount of the quality of a product is tied to the skills of the craftsman. 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk


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## Geo87 (Jan 29, 2014)

Jon : thank you , great thread . 

So it's not about the steel type ... More about the blacksmiths skills in getting the most out of the steel... And your own skills & experience dictates how much of the quality you can actually perceive. 
I'm storing that info in the 'important' section of my brain


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## Ruso (Jan 30, 2014)

Jon, a question then. If the blacksmith is much more important then the steel used, why do not you disclose the blacksmiths you use on some of your Gesshin lines?


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## bkultra (Jan 30, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Jon, a question then. If the blacksmith is much more important then the steel used, why do not you disclose the blacksmiths you use on some of your Gesshin lines?



I would guess there are many reasons but the two main I could think of are:

1) this would be by the request of the marker(s) themselves. Keep in mind the knife making industry is very different over in Japan. 

2) the competition would try and have the knives copied (this has happened in the past and is part of the reason this website exists). So keeping your markers and/or steel becomes a unfortunate necessity


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 30, 2014)

Proprietary information is sensitive information that is owned by a company and which gives the company certain competitive advantages. Proprietary information assets are critical to the success of many, perhaps most businesses. The importance of this property, while too often not yet formally valued by many companies, is highly valuable. In todays highly competitive global marketplace, it is recognized by many managers that the intellectual assets of business are highly sought-after commodities.


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## JBroida (Jan 30, 2014)

bkultra said:


> I would guess there are many reasons but the two main I could think of are:
> 
> 1) this would be by the request of the marker(s) themselves. Keep in mind the knife making industry is very different over in Japan.
> 
> 2) the competition would try and have the knives copied (this has happened in the past and is part of the reason this website exists). So keeping your markers and/or steel becomes a unfortunate necessity



yeah... thats pretty accurate. For me, the important thing is that I know who does what (even when sometimes it is hidden from me), so that i can explain to my customers how any given knife might be expected to perform based to that craftsman's heat treatment, grinding style, forging style, etc.


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## 29palms (Jan 31, 2014)

I don't think you can get Hitachi White steel "B" stock - White is White. It's the craft that goes into the blade that makes it good or no. Carter has exceptional talent IMO - there are a lot of guys forging, but not to the extent that Murray takes it. His sense of tradition - forge, anneal, cold forge, ect. is what sets him apart at least domestically. I've seen video of Japanese craftsmen cold forging, but never an American other than Carter. Please inform me of any I'd like to check them out.

I just remembered something I read him saying that his master insisted he make the blade "thinner" when he was an apprentice.


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