# Sujihiki



## IsoJ (Mar 31, 2020)

Sujis don't get too much talk here so I thought I would like to hear what are other peoples preferences with the sujis, the lenght, height, stiffness, all carbon/stainless,s clad? what do you use it for? Is suji only for slicing protein or do you use it for other products, tasks or tricks too?

And yes I know that yanagibas do exist but I would like to keep this thread with sujihikis(double bevels).

I am planning to get 300mm suji later this year, so nothing wrong with some good suggestions


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## zizirex (Mar 31, 2020)

be prepared for the Toyama Fanboy...


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## Gregmega (Mar 31, 2020)

Watanabe, but you were close


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## panda (Mar 31, 2020)

all carbon, 270, normal height, stiff. prefer thick grind for raw protein, thin grind for cooked. quite a few people use suji for other tasks, but i mainly use for slicing/portioning duty only.


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## J.C (Mar 31, 2020)

Mainly just for slicing and portioning purposes.. 
For me 265 hits the sweet spot. Good enough for raw fish and raw meat also can carve cooked meat


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## aszma (Mar 31, 2020)

panda said:


> all carbon, 270, normal height, stiff. prefer thick grind for raw protein, thin grind for cooked. quite a few people use suji for other tasks, but i mainly use for slicing/portioning duty only.


I dont know much about suijs as ive never owned one but Ive heard from a couple of my chefs that its the opposite where you want a thin one for raw protein and a thicker one for cooked. Any reason you like it the other way around?


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## IsoJ (Mar 31, 2020)

J.C said:


> Mainly just for slicing and portioning purposes..
> For me 265 hits the sweet spot. Good enough for raw fish and raw meat also can carve cooked meat


Nice looking blade, who is the maker?


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## IsoJ (Mar 31, 2020)

panda said:


> all carbon, 270, normal height, stiff. prefer thick grind for raw protein, thin grind for cooked. quite a few people use suji for other tasks, but i mainly use for slicing/portioning duty only.


Do you have any favorite steel just for the suji, sharpness over retention?


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## J.C (Mar 31, 2020)

The9nine
1.2519 core stainless clad for extra stiffness
Right hand grind 
64hrc


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## Horsemover (Mar 31, 2020)

https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=101254

Wat carbon/iron clad. Don’t have any experience with them but if you are looking for one.


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## panda (Mar 31, 2020)

aszma said:


> I dont know much about suijs as ive never owned one but Ive heard from a couple of my chefs that its the opposite where you want a thin one for raw protein and a thicker one for cooked. Any reason you like it the other way around?


Sticktion is way more prevailant on raw and thicker grinds have way less sticktion.

Edge retetnion doesn't matter in a suji, there is very little board contact. I always value ease of sharpening over retention.


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## NO ChoP! (Mar 31, 2020)

Panda kinda hit it on the head. 

I have a 270 Yosh skd and a 270 Kono w#2.

I round it out with a 210 Ittinomonn v2, and a 12" Forschner scimitar.

300mm is cool, but doesn't travel well; often sticks out of a knife roll, especially with saya.


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## bahamaroot (Mar 31, 2020)

Have a 300mm Kono W#2. Everytime I use it I'm glad I have every mm of it.


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## ExistentialHero (Mar 31, 2020)

I have a 300mm suji (custom from Dakota Willison) and love it for slicing up briskets, whole pork bellies, etc. It's nice and stiff, with a pretty thick grind per my request since I only use it for cooked proteins anyway. IMO heel height isn't super important as it's used with a finger down the spine for slicing.

I appreciate that it's always long enough


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## Chesterc (Mar 31, 2020)

I think distal taper is also very important. If you have Suji with thick grind and trying to do a pull cutting motion the tip area will get in the way and you will have to put more pressure to force through the protein(also the other hand you use to hold the protein would apply more pressure to the protein to try holding it in place) . In that case the the cross section of the cut protein would not be as straight and smooth.
I’m more used to use a chefs knife to carve cooked protein but if I were to have one I’d say Toyama or wat with a thinner tip.


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## Cliff (Mar 31, 2020)

For home, a 300mm W2 wa Ginga, mostly for slicing, which I love. I have a 270 Kanehide SK that's asymmetric, more of a yanagi from the factory, for travel.


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## Receiver52 (Mar 31, 2020)

A Wat Pro 240mm. Use it only for cooked protein. I’d say the grind is medium. If I could do over again, I’d go at least 270mm.


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## CiderBear (Mar 31, 2020)

I have a used & dull Wat Pro 240mm that's quite thick behind the edge, but I haven't had a chance to really sharpen or play with it.

What grit do you put your suji on? And do you want your suji to be super thin behind the edge like a gyuto?


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## CoteRotie (Mar 31, 2020)

I have the Gesshin Ginga 270mm stainless suji: 

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-ginga-270mm-stainless-wa-sujihiki

I like the thinness, it's easy to sharpen and works well. I don't feel like I can get it quite as sharp as shirogami or aogami steel, but it's definitely sharp enough for its intended purposes. 

There's a 300mm version, but looks like only the yo-handle 300mm is in stock.

I think it will work well during the zombie apocalypse too.


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## daveb (Mar 31, 2020)

I'm a bit suji stupid. I've sold a couple and I think I'm down to 5. That does not include cimitars, or "butcher" knives, The group includes a Gengetsu, stainless clad white, an AEBL DT, and a Heijii carbon, all in 270mm. Also a 285mm Wat Ame Kintaro and a 300mm Stainless Kono.

The Kono, 140g, (and still 300mm) is the lightest of the bunch. It will cut most anything but is a little flexi. It has found a home as a knife for cutting wedding cake at catered events where every mm counts.

The Gengetsu, 155g and DT, 150g, are at their best with smaller roasts, tenderloin and raw protiens. Both have a little flex. They are quite versatile, either could be your "only" suji but would not be my first choice for cooked protiens.

The Wat, 209 glorious grams. My favorite of the bunch. I could sell the others and still be a happy camper - but who's gonna sell a Gengetsu or a Devin? It's a stiffy in any application yet nimble enough for detail work. 

The Heiji is the biggest dog of the bunch. 229 gr. Between the grind and the weight, stuff just falls apart. Best of the bunch for making big things into little things. Not long on nimble. Not a subtle blade. Panda sold me this one (at a great price) a couple years ago and I still thank him every time I use it.

All this is leading to a point. I find the weight on the suji to be almost as important as the grind. Shop for one from a regarded maker. Make sure it's thin behind edge but not necessarily at the spine. No lasers unless it's your second (at least) suji. If it's your only, I'll suggest 165g as a lower limit. In a well built knife the weight and amount of flex will correspond pretty closely. And flex is not a good thing. 270mm is a good length. I've not had to cut anything with a 270 that caused me to wish I had a 300. 

Had a SIH that I liked but was a little too light for my preference. Had a Toyoma, excellent knife, that someone wanted it more than I did. Same thing with a Wat Pro. Next suji will probably be an HSC Zwear. Great application for a steel that holds an edge forever. Want to try a Gesshin Heiji for the steel. May have to get on Tillman's list and beg for a Nilox one day.

And a little porn for those stuck at home.

Marko scimitar
Haburn "Butcher"
The Wat
Heiji
DT
Kono
Gengetsu


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## Qapla' (Mar 31, 2020)

daveb said:


> I'm a bit suji stupid. I've sold a couple and I think I'm down to 5. That does not include cimitars, or "butcher" knives,



In your experience, how do sujihiki's differ in use vis-a-vis cimeters, bullnose-knives, and other butchery-knives?


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## daveb (Mar 31, 2020)

Suji are much better for portion sized, uniform, slices. I use the scimitar sometimes when portioning loins while catering - makes for a good show. If I'm in the back, slicing for plated table service or hotel pans / buffet, it's suji all day.


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## labor of love (Mar 31, 2020)

PM sent for gengetsu suji.


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## GoodMagic (Mar 31, 2020)

I have two. A hiromoto as wa 270, and a Tillman Leder 210. Honestly I don’t use them. For me, at home, they are redundant. I stick to gyuto, typically a 210 or 180.


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## panda (Mar 31, 2020)

dave have you thought about a TF mab suji?


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## IsoJ (Apr 1, 2020)

I will use the suji at home 1-2 times a week depending if it is bbq season or winter. Now I use mainly Kippington 267mm heavier laser for bigger protein. It does the Job okei for me but still want the extra inch or so in lenght and luxury of dedicated knife. Heji is custom order in 300mm I believe?. Does Wat make sujis anymore? who else makes a little heftier sujis? I had 270 ss clad toyama and it felt way too light(around 140-150gr) for me.


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> I will use the suji at home 1-2 times a week depending if it is bbq season or winter. Now I use mainly Kippington 267mm heavier laser for bigger protein. It does the Job okei for me but still want the extra inch or so in lenght and luxury of dedicated knife. Heji is custom order in 300mm I believe?. Does Wat make sujis anymore? who else makes a little heftier sujis? I had 270 ss clad toyama and it felt way too light(around 140-150gr) for me.


Shigehiro suji looks pretty baller if you want a little heft.

https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/shigehiro/products/shigehiro-sujihiki-270mm


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## IsoJ (Apr 1, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Shigehiro suji looks pretty baller if you want a little heft.
> 
> https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/shigehiro/products/shigehiro-sujihiki-270mm


Looking for 300mm..


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2020)

Oh sorry.


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## Steampunk (Apr 1, 2020)

I've not spent the hundreds of hours behind various Sujihiki that pros do... However, I've spent enough time with my 240mm Zakuri Suji to have learned a few things from it... 

1. You can almost never have a big enough Suji. Don't waste your time on 240; go 270+. 

2. If your goal is to achieve paper thin slices for deli-style sandwiches, thick, wide bevel knives steer too much to make this possible. Better off with an asymmetrically ground blade for this purpose. Furthermore, heavy wide bevel Suji's aren't the most versatile knives if you want to use them for non-meaty things, as they wedge ferociously due to lacking the height to compensate for their thickness. However, they do work well for thicker portioning cuts in roasts, and suchlike. 

3. Hot proteins, especially red meat, can actually have quite a profound effect on the edge retention of simpler carbon steels. Poly-boards, also… For this reason, I actually think Suji’s are one of the applications where very wear resistant steels are quite suitable. 

4. As for edges, when cutting red meat, I like the edge to be as coarse as I can get it and still deburr. I finish my Zakuri on a Naniwa Pro 600, typically. Poultry, I can get away with it being a bit finer; 1-2K. If I was cutting fish, I’d take it to 6K+, but this knife doesn’t feel ideal for that application. 

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## IsoJ (Apr 1, 2020)

daveb said:


> I'm a bit suji stupid. I've sold a couple and I think I'm down to 5. That does not include cimitars, or "butcher" knives, The group includes a Gengetsu, stainless clad white, an AEBL DT, and a Heijii carbon, all in 270mm. Also a 285mm Wat Ame Kintaro and a 300mm Stainless Kono.
> 
> The Kono, 140g, (and still 300mm) is the lightest of the bunch. It will cut most anything but is a little flexi. It has found a home as a knife for cutting wedding cake at catered events where every mm counts.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the input. I am kind of set my mind for 300mm, I am only using it at home so the lenght isnt a problem. My knife skills arent anywhere close for detailed work yet, so heftier and stiffer blade like wat and heji could be good choice.


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## Gregmega (Apr 1, 2020)

I’m gonna tell you the opposite. Shorter sujis are great for doing fabrication and used as a line knife for slicing proteins on pick up. I also use shorter knives in general, so I may be void from the convo. Not to be smug, but in the right hands a 240 suji can do more than 3 knives can, let alone a 300 suji. (My sushi friends may strongly disagree). Either way it kinda depends on what the goals are- if you’re out to get a flashy piece, 300. If you’re out to cook, you never need more than a 270 (convince me otherwise). Great sujis ime- Wat, shigehiro, kagekiyo, fujiama, Maz, ahh man, the list goes on. Love me a good suji.

*edit
*just noticed you’re using at home- go with a katana and dance like no one’s watching


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## IsoJ (Apr 1, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> I've not spent the hundreds of hours behind various Sujihiki that pros do... However, I've spent enough time with my 240mm Zakuri Suji to have learned a few things from it...
> 
> 1. You can almost never have a big enough Suji. Don't waste your time on 240; go 270+.
> 
> ...


This helps a lot.

1. I am leaning towards 300mm
2. For now the suji comes mainly for meat cutting and no necessery a paper thin slices. 3. I like sharpening and I cook at home mainly so I dont have to put too much weight for the retention. I didn't think that red meat has such an impact on edge retention..
4. I am definitly going to play and find out what grits/finish works the best. The 600grit kind of makes sence with the red meat.


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## IsoJ (Apr 1, 2020)

Gregmega said:


> I’m gonna tell you the opposite. Shorter sujis are great for doing fabrication and used as a line knife for slicing proteins on pick up. I also use shorter knives in general, so I may be void from the convo. Not to be smug, but in the right hands a 240 suji can do more than 3 knives can, let alone a 300 suji. (My sushi friends may strongly disagree). Either way it kinda depends on what the goals are- if you’re out to get a flashy piece, 300. If you’re out to cook, you never need more than a 270 (convince me otherwise). Great sujis ime- Wat, shigehiro, kagekiyo, fujiama, Maz, ahh man, the list goes on. Love me a good suji.
> 
> *edit
> *just noticed you’re using at home- go with a katana and dance like no one’s watching


Yes, I don't have to worry about the space,speed and efficiency as a home cook and I can use as many knives with one meal prep as I like . I like longer knives in general(still in search for the right 210-220 gyuto thou) so maybe that is why I lean for 300 suji.


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## bahamaroot (Apr 1, 2020)

When it comes to a suji, go big or go home....


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2020)

As far as I can tell, the most important determining factor for edge retention is the repeated banging against the board dulling the edge. Patina forming does matter some too.
Because you’re hardly going to banging a suji against your board I usually go with a steel that’s super easy to sharpen or a more pure steel for sujihiki.


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## aszma (Apr 1, 2020)

Gregmega said:


> I’m gonna tell you the opposite. Shorter sujis are great for doing fabrication and used as a line knife for slicing proteins on pick up. I also use shorter knives in general, so I may be void from the convo. Not to be smug, but in the right hands a 240 suji can do more than 3 knives can, let alone a 300 suji. (My sushi friends may strongly disagree). Either way it kinda depends on what the goals are- if you’re out to get a flashy piece, 300. If you’re out to cook, you never need more than a 270 (convince me otherwise). Great sujis ime- Wat, shigehiro, kagekiyo, fujiama, Maz, ahh man, the list goes on. Love me a good suji.
> 
> *edit
> *just noticed you’re using at home- go with a katana and dance like no one’s watching


mhhh please tell me more about the power of a 240mm suji. Ive been looking at 210-240mm suji/petties for a while now but my biggest fear is always buying a knife i think ill use a lot but end up never using and having to resell later


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## soigne_west (Apr 1, 2020)

aszma said:


> mhhh please tell me more about the power of a 240mm suji. Ive been looking at 210-240mm suji/petties for a while now but my biggest fear is always buying a knife i think ill use a lot but end up never using and having to resell later



I carry both a 250 and 300 in my bag every day to work (when I’m actually working) and have to agree with Greg. I almost never use the 300. I find the the shorter size to be far more versatile.


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## NO ChoP! (Apr 1, 2020)

Years back there was a big push for 210 sujis as board knives. I picked up a Kono HD, and hated it as a board knife, but absolutely loved it as a meat fab knife. I could clean a tenderloin and filet a salmon with it. I still have a 210 Ittinomonn that I use occasionally, but I lean towards pettys now with tenderloins, and usually just use a gyuto or funayuki with fish. (I also have a deba, but I find the fish on the eastern coast to be much softer. I like the deba for firm fish.)


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## Nagakin (Apr 1, 2020)

I'm weird and choose a tall suji over a gyuto in most cases. My favorite is Yamamoto's SG2. 44.5mm tall, 4mm at the heel with a beautiful taper. It's the only knife I keep that doesn't see heavy use (damascus is from Asai). 

I prefer less height for less blade contact with food, it's worth the trade-off to me and keeps my technique sharp. Unfortunately, 43-46mm is a dead zone since most people don't push the extremes of finger clearance.


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## Steampunk (Apr 1, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> 3. I like sharpening and I cook at home mainly so I dont have to put too much weight for the retention. I didn't think that red meat has such an impact on edge retention..



Raw red meat isn't so much the issue... It's the hot blood and juices that seem to do a number on basic carbon steels like Shirogami #2. When slicing a cooked, and rested roast or steak, I started struggling after my first few slices using knives made from Shirogami and 10xx series steels due to erosion of the edge. As I cook at home and like sharpening as well, I wouldn't mind less retention either... If such a knife needed sharpening at the end of a single big night of slicing, I wouldn't mind. However, if a knife cannot get through a job without being resharpened at least once partway through, it's a problem even for me. Cutting hot, juicy red meat creates a beautiful patina fairly quickly, though...

On raw meat, I do use simple carbon without much hesitation. If you're butchering, then what I just said doesn't apply much. If you're portioning cooked proteins, though, it's something I'd think hard about... It's like relying on basic carbon for cutting citrus. It'll do it; just maybe not long enough if it's a big job.

I use poly boards for meat, and wood for veg. Whilst one isn't 'banging' the edge of a Suji when slicing meat, one does slide it along the surface of the board to finish the cut. It does make board contact; you're not cutting in the air. Poly is harder than end-grain wood on an edge. However, the acid-erosion of the edge is the more aggressive of the two factors in the situation I have outlined.

I hope this clarifies my comment... It may have seemed strange.

- Steampunk


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Years back there was a big push for 210 sujis as board knives. I picked up a Kono HD, and hated it as a board knife, but absolutely loved it as a meat fab knife. I could clean a tenderloin and filet a salmon with it. I still have a 210 Ittinomonn that I use occasionally, but I lean towards pettys now with tenderloins, and usually just use a gyuto or funayuki with fish. (I also have a deba, but I find the fish on the eastern coast to be much softer. I like the deba for firm fish.)


Yes kono HD 210mm was the knife to own in 2013-2014 lol.
I’ve owned several and I liked them but they just never saw much use with what I do.


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## IsoJ (Apr 1, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> Raw red meat isn't so much the issue... It's the hot blood and juices that seem to do a number on basic carbon steels like Shirogami #2. When slicing a cooked, and rested roast or steak, I started struggling after my first few slices using knives made from Shirogami and 10xx series steels due to erosion of the edge. As I cook at home and like sharpening as well, I wouldn't mind less retention either... If such a knife needed sharpening at the end of a single big night of slicing, I wouldn't mind. However, if a knife cannot get through a job without being resharpened at least once partway through, it's a problem even for me. Cutting hot, juicy red meat creates a beautiful patina fairly quickly, though...
> 
> On raw meat, I do use simple carbon without much hesitation. If you're butchering, then what I just said doesn't apply much. If you're portioning cooked proteins, though, it's something I'd think hard about... It's like relying on basic carbon for cutting citrus. It'll do it; just maybe not long enough if it's a big job.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the clarification, it makes much more sense to me now. I use Hasegawa boards with protein. Maybe a stupid question but have you noticed any change of the acid-erosion after stable patina has build up or is it about the same because the "bare edge" don't have the patina? I have several knives in my "home rotation" and that is why I havent even thought/noticed about the edge retention more than steel, board, sharpening issue.


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## Cliff (Apr 1, 2020)

I cook at home... I'll echo the preference for big knives. Do I need a 300 suji? Well no, but it is nice. I'm only cooking for small groups, so I don't worry about edge retention. I like it thin. I also have a Ginga 210 petty as a utility knife, which I reach for all the time.

ETA, If I'm planning ahead enough to sharpen with a task in mind, I'll leave it at 2K or 3K for meat, 6K for general use, and higher for fish 10K synthetic or polishing natural stone depending on whim.


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## Chesterc (Apr 1, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> Raw red meat isn't so much the issue... It's the hot blood and juices that seem to do a number on basic carbon steels like Shirogami #2. When slicing a cooked, and rested roast or steak, I started struggling after my first few slices using knives made from Shirogami and 10xx series steels due to erosion of the edge. As I cook at home and like sharpening as well, I wouldn't mind less retention either... If such a knife needed sharpening at the end of a single big night of slicing, I wouldn't mind. However, if a knife cannot get through a job without being resharpened at least once partway through, it's a problem even for me. Cutting hot, juicy red meat creates a beautiful patina fairly quickly, though...
> 
> On raw meat, I do use simple carbon without much hesitation. If you're butchering, then what I just said doesn't apply much. If you're portioning cooked proteins, though, it's something I'd think hard about... It's like relying on basic carbon for cutting citrus. It'll do it; just maybe not long enough if it's a big job.
> 
> ...


Crusty red meats are hard you lose the edge fairly quickly. Some said sharpening the knife to 3000 grit to help maintain the bite but I never found that useful. Instead I always reach out for a steel(during a busy service)


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## Steampunk (Apr 1, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> Thank you for the clarification, it makes much more sense to me now. I use Hasegawa boards with protein. Maybe a stupid question but have you noticed any change of the acid-erosion after stable patina has build up or is it about the same because the "bare edge" don't have the patina? I have several knives in my "home rotation" and that is why I havent even thought/noticed about the edge retention more than steel, board, sharpening issue.



It's not a stupid question. Strong enough acids like citrus, and hot salty beef blood seem to keep eroding the steel at a consistent rate, even after patina... This is far more aggressive than the sort of reaction one encounters with onions, peppers, etc... During normal veg prep, the patina takes the edge back a notch or two, then 'stabilizes' for a while until abrasion dulls it... Slicing a cooked steak or beef roast just keeps degrading the edge quickly and linearly. Aogami #1 or Super with a very coarse edge holds up 'alright', but not well enough that I still wouldn't question the need for a wear resistant semi or full-stainless steel for this sort of application... Particularly if catering a party, or working professionally. 

Chicken and pork aren't nearly as bad as beef, but hot and juicy, are still worse than raw in terms of edge retention. Organic acids are always more aggressive when heated. 

Hope this helps... 

- Steampunk


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## Steampunk (Apr 1, 2020)

Chesterc said:


> Crusty red meats are hard you lose the edge fairly quickly. Some said sharpening the knife to 3000 grit to help maintain the bite but I never found that useful. Instead I always reach out for a steel(during a busy service)



I'd agree with your experience... For this sort of thing, with a basic carbon steel blade, a steel honing rod would be an absolute necessity. I vacillate between this solution, and having a more etch/wear resistant alloy. I dream of a Z-Wear sujihiki with an asymmetric grind like Hiromoto.

- Steampunk


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2020)

Are you guys not wiping down your blade or something after you use it?


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## panda (Apr 1, 2020)

Beef juice go nom nom I eat you carbides!!


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## Steampunk (Apr 1, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Are you guys not wiping down your blade or something after you use it?



I wipe almost obsessively... Typically every 3 slices on a large roast if the knife hasn't formed a stable patina yet, and don't push it much past six or eight if it has. I wash and dry carbon immediately after the job is complete.

I'm not talking about loss of bite after the job is done, and the blade sits... I'm talking about losing it during the job.

It makes me curious that you've been having such a different experience... Honestly. We're talking similar experiences, right? Hot (Just out of resting) and seasoned rare beef roast, portioning it into umpteen 1/4 to 3/8" thick slices... Your freshly sharpened Shirogami or 10XX blade doesn't lose _any _bite from the start to finish on that job? If you're not experiencing that, I'm curious what's the factor that makes it different for us from a scientific angle. It's an interesting question, if the factors in our experiences are identical. Both of us clearly have experiences we don't doubt. So there must be a factor that makes them different. 

- Steampunk


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2020)

I think you’re losing some edge keenness from the initial cut penetrating the crispy exterior of seared/grilled meat.
I’m not saying I don’t lose any edge through repeated use.
But I don’t notice a faster deterioration of an edge from hot meat juice contact.
I could be wrong, maybe there’s something to it. But I think direct contact against a hard surface whether it’s a cutting board or crispy skin is the culprit.
For all I know maybe you’re right, or maybe it’s impact is minuscule or so negligible I just don’t notice.


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## panda (Apr 1, 2020)

the hot juice weakens heat treat and makes the air around it more dense. it's like youre cutting through a piece of poly board.

- panda


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## M1k3 (Apr 1, 2020)

panda said:


> the hot juice weakens heat treat and makes the air around it more dense. it's like youre cutting through a piece of poly board.
> 
> - panda



Just run it through the dishwasher to reharden it.


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## IsoJ (Apr 2, 2020)

So long story short. Pros use more the shorter one(under 300mm) because of the versatile of the blade and due to lack of space. Home cooks can use whatever they want because they aren't on o'clock. And no matter how you use it, it gets dull. 

Maybe Mazaki makes 210 petty soon, that could work with the 300mm suji well


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## bahamaroot (Apr 2, 2020)

I'm only a home cook but I'm with @labor of love on this one. I'll lose that initial keenness with my Shirogami #2 but it is far from dull by the time I finish thinly slicing a roast or a few steaks. I use a loaded strop on it after finishing and it's ready for the next use.


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## M1k3 (Apr 2, 2020)

This has been bugging me about the edge retention with red meat juices and salt. @Larrin is there any truth to edge degradation from meat juices? With or without salt (a common amount found on well seasoned meat. Not extreme levels.)


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## daveb (Apr 2, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> So long story short. Pros use more the shorter one(under 300mm) because of the versatile of the blade and due to lack of space. Home cooks can use whatever they want because they aren't on o'clock. And no matter how you use it, it gets dull.
> 
> Maybe Mazaki makes 210 petty soon, that could work with the 300mm suji well



That's quite the logic leap. Pro's use a 270 because it's effective. If a 300 offered an advantage the Pro would find a way to use it regardless of your imagined space constraints. You've heard from several pro's, myself included, that it does not offer that advantage. 

If you want to buy a 300 then you should buy a 300 and the hell with the advice to the contrary. It's your knife, it's your money, and it should make you happy


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## panda (Apr 2, 2020)

maybe he was the one that bought the 300 ikeda gyuto from bernal, it could easily be used as a suji.


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## IsoJ (Apr 2, 2020)

daveb said:


> That's quite the logic leap. Pro's use a 270 because it's effective. If a 300 offered an advantage the Pro would find a way to use it regardless of your imagined space constraints. You've heard from several pro's, myself included, that it does not offer that advantage.
> 
> If you want to buy a 300 then you should buy a 300 and the hell with the advice to the contrary. It's your knife, it's your money, and it should make you happy


Well said


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## IsoJ (Apr 2, 2020)

panda said:


> maybe he was the one that bought the 300 ikeda gyuto from bernal, it could easily be used as a suji.


I had it in my cart but managed to fight the temptation


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## soigne_west (Apr 2, 2020)

Deleted wrong thread


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 3, 2020)

aszma said:


> mhhh please tell me more about the power of a 240mm suji. Ive been looking at 210-240mm suji/petties for a while now but my biggest fear is always buying a knife i think ill use a lot but end up never using and having to resell later



Don’t fear that, it happens all the time and it’s how you figure out what you like, want, and/or need in a knife.

I do (or did before the turds hit the turbines) a fair bit of slicing. A 240 is good for versatility and small spaces. A 270 is good for a go-to suji. A 300 might be unnecessary for some applications but the Tou 300 slices meats better than anything I’ve ever tried (haven’t tried the Toyama or Heiji though). I find that for pure slicing, either seriously heavy or full on laser works equally well and slightly better than anything in between. All of mine will last a busy Saturday, couple hundred pieces of meat, and all will need to be sharpened afterwards; the stainless especially high carbide stuff will need less sharpening than the carbon and the Hinoura White 2 will need the most - except the Tou, that one holds the best, but it’s also the heaviest and longest so I can’t say precisely how much is the steel.

as a footnote I bought that silly thing and am immensely happy with it, didn’t think I’d ever seriously recommend it to someone though, and here I am doing that for the second time!


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## panda (Apr 3, 2020)

What the heck is tou?


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 3, 2020)

https://hitohira-japan.com/products/caa-011-6-ga300?variant=8171124097077
this thing.

tosho has a bunch, also here https://www.japanese-cutlery.com/ty...anese-kitchen-knives/tou-marks-kitchen-knife/


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## aszma (Apr 3, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Don’t fear that, it happens all the time and it’s how you figure out what you like, want, and/or need in a knife.
> 
> I do (or did before the turds hit the turbines) a fair bit of slicing. A 240 is good for versatility and small spaces. A 270 is good for a go-to suji. A 300 might be unnecessary for some applications but the Tou 300 slices meats better than anything I’ve ever tried (haven’t tried the Toyama or Heiji though). I find that for pure slicing, either seriously heavy or full on laser works equally well and slightly better than anything in between. All of mine will last a busy Saturday, couple hundred pieces of meat, and all will need to be sharpened afterwards; the stainless especially high carbide stuff will need less sharpening than the carbon and the Hinoura White 2 will need the most - except the Tou, that one holds the best, but it’s also the heaviest and longest so I can’t say precisely how much is the steel.
> 
> as a footnote I bought that silly thing and am immensely happy with it, didn’t think I’d ever seriously recommend it to someone though, and here I am doing that for the second time!


haha that is true id def be more willing to try new knives if **** didnt jsut hit the fan


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## ExistentialHero (Apr 3, 2020)

That Tou is, as the Internet would say,
M E G A C H O N K


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## OnionSlicer (Apr 3, 2020)

On the topic of beef and acidity, here's a "stainless" fujiwara fkm that I only use for carving roasts.


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## bahamaroot (Apr 3, 2020)

If beef wasn't acidic it wouldn't be the choice for forming the best patinas.


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## labor of love (Apr 3, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> Sujis don't get too much talk here so I thought I would like to hear what are other peoples preferences with the sujis, the lenght, height, stiffness, all carbon/stainless,s clad? what do you use it for? Is suji only for slicing protein or do you use it for other products, tasks or tricks too?
> 
> And yes I know that yanagibas do exist but I would like to keep this thread with sujihikis(double bevels).
> 
> I am planning to get 300mm suji later this year, so nothing wrong with some good suggestions


This is probably one of my fave off the shelf sujis whenever I do window shopping 
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...hin-ittetsu-300mm-blue-hon-kasumi-wa-sujihiki


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## IsoJ (Apr 3, 2020)

labor of love said:


> This is probably one of my fave off the shelf sujis whenever I do window shopping
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...hin-ittetsu-300mm-blue-hon-kasumi-wa-sujihiki



That has a nice and a bit different looking profile and blue2 steel which is at the moment my favorite steel to sharpen(Toyama). I've been eyeing the Itetsu 240 white2 gyuto too now that you mention gesshin...


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## labor of love (Apr 3, 2020)

Both are excellent.


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## panda (Apr 3, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> That has a nice and a bit different looking profile and blue2 steel which is at the moment my favorite steel to sharpen(Toyama). I've been eyeing the Itetsu 240 white2 gyuto too now that you mention gesshin...


That's weird, Toyama/wat blue2 is one of my.least favorite carbons to sharpen


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## IsoJ (Apr 3, 2020)

panda said:


> That's weird, Toyama/wat blue2 is one of my.least favorite carbons to sharpen


That's no weird, I' ve been sharpen only a little while so my mind may be very different after next few months.


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## ian (May 29, 2020)

Anyone find that kurouchi creates drag when cutting protein? Been looking at a couple of KU sujis... (thick KU, like Kochi or Hinoura)


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## adam92 (May 30, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> I wipe almost obsessively... Typically every 3 slices on a large roast if the knife hasn't formed a stable patina yet, and don't push it much past six or eight if it has. I wash and dry carbon immediately after the job is complete.
> 
> I'm not talking about loss of bite after the job is done, and the blade sits... I'm talking about losing it during the job.
> 
> ...


Hi Steampunk, can you give me some advice about sharpening sujihiki ? I don't know should i stop on 1K or better stop on 2K/ Uchigumori.

These days i stop on Uchigumori i found the edge is sharper, but seems didn't last longer than 1k....


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (May 30, 2020)

panda said:


> What the heck is tou?


What the heck is sticktion?


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## Blerghle (May 30, 2020)

Also curious on kurouchi for sujis. I'm thinking of getting some sort of a Munetoshi down the line, not sure if a suji or the butcher knife would be a better expression of that style. Maybe butcher based on the feedback on raw carbon steel here, plus my 240 Zakuri gyuto is pretty well worn down to a suji at this point .


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## Ruso (May 30, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> That's no weird, I' ve been sharpen only a little while so my mind may be very different after next few months.


Its not wiered, pandas just have clumsy paws by nature; I wound not trust one about still abrasion.


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## Steampunk (May 30, 2020)

adam92 said:


> Hi Steampunk, can you give me some advice about sharpening sujihiki ? I don't know should i stop on 1K or better stop on 2K/ Uchigumori.
> 
> These days i stop on Uchigumori i found the edge is sharper, but seems didn't last longer than 1k....



Suji's on red meat, I've found it best to finish on incredibly low grits. 300-600. Basically, finish it as low as you can comfortably deburr. Poultry seems to like a little higher edge. 1-5K or an equivalent natural. Fish, if you're not using single bevels, seems to like really high grit edges; 8-12K+ or equivalent natural. Veg, finish it like you would a gyuto; 1-6K or similar natural.

Uchigumori edge will be 'sharper' (More push cutting performance, less tooth.), but if you have food acids or tough fibers you have to cut through, big teeth matter more and last longer in hot proteins.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## adam92 (May 30, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> Suji's on red meat, I've found it best to finish on incredibly low grits. 300-600. Basically, finish it as low as you can comfortably deburr. Poultry seems to like a little higher edge. 1-5K or an equivalent natural. Fish, if you're not using single bevels, seems to like really high grit edges; 8-12K+ or equivalent natural. Veg, finish it like you would a gyuto; 1-6K or similar natural.
> 
> Uchigumori edge will be 'sharper' (More push cutting performance, less tooth.), but if you have food acids or tough fibers you have to cut through, big teeth matter more and last longer in hot proteins.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your advice, I'll try next time finish on low grit, basically i only use sujihiki for red meat, gyuto i finish on 2K/ Uchigumori, when i cut a lot of red pepper, i finish on 1k & single bevel deba finish with Uchigumori also.


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## ian (Jun 25, 2020)

A friend on here whose opinions I think are usually pretty spot on told me recently that wide bevel sujis all suck for cooked meat, because the sharp shinogi line separates the fibers and makes for a more ragged cut. 

Has this also been your experience? Please discuss! Why are there so many wide bevel sujis out there? Are you all just using them for raw protein? Do you think they all suck?


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## FishmanDE (Jun 25, 2020)

I don't have one currently, But am looking into getting a cheap daily driver 270mm specifically for descaling fish in a professional environment. I chose the yanagi as my main slicer.


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## DitmasPork (Jun 25, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> Sujis don't get too much talk here so I thought I would like to hear what are other peoples preferences with the sujis, the lenght, height, stiffness, all carbon/stainless,s clad? what do you use it for? Is suji only for slicing protein or do you use it for other products, tasks or tricks too?
> 
> And yes I know that yanagibas do exist but I would like to keep this thread with sujihikis(double bevels).
> 
> I am planning to get 300mm suji later this year, so nothing wrong with some good suggestions



I love sujis, prefer them over yanagis because of it's versatility—sometimes will grab them instead of a gyuto to do everything from raw and cooked proteins to veg. Here're the ones in my kitchen—sizes are 230, 360, 270, 240—the 360 is not mine, but borrowed. The two that are used most are the 230 Yanick and 240 Heiji semi-stainless. For me, a suji can do pretty much everything a gyuto can. I'm a carbon fan, reactivity never an issue for me. If I were buying my first suji, knowing what I know now of how I cook, I would buy a 230 or 240. I also dig stiffer, taller sujis.


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## jacko9 (Jun 25, 2020)

270 W#2 Kagekiyo suji - nothing shorter but a 300 would have been nice. I have a 210 Konosuke Fujiyama Petty that I use if i need something shorter for slicing or trimming. Kagekiyo on top followed by T-F Nashiji, Konosuke HD2 gyuto, Konosuke Fujiyama B#2 gyuto, T-F 150 Nashiji Petty and a Konosuke 150 GS Petty.


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## adam92 (Jun 25, 2020)

ian said:


> A friend on here whose opinions I think are usually pretty spot on told me recently that wide bevel sujis all suck for cooked meat, because the sharp shinogi line separates the fibers and makes for a more ragged cut.
> 
> Has this also been your experience? Please discuss! Why are there so many wide bevel sujis out there? Are you all just using them for raw protein? Do you think they all suck?


I never use wide bevel suji before, sorry can't comment.


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## ian (Jun 25, 2020)

Oh suji gods, what say ye? @daveb


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## daveb (Jun 25, 2020)

Don't know that I've used a wide. A proper suji would be too short for it to be effective. And I don't like wide bevel gyuto. So I'm thinking that's a no.


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## ian (Jun 25, 2020)

daveb said:


> Don't know that I've used a wide. A proper suji would be too short for it to be effective. And I don't like wide bevel gyuto. So I'm thinking that's a no.



Haven’t I heard you talk about a Heiji carbon? Guess I must have been confused. Thanks, tho!


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## panda (Jun 25, 2020)

ian said:


> Haven’t I heard you talk about a Heiji carbon? Guess I must have been confused. Thanks, tho!


i was about to say.. but i eased the shoulders on that one that he has, hehe


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## ian (Jun 25, 2020)

Hah. It’s all your fault. I knew it!


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## daveb (Jun 25, 2020)

The wide bevel on the Heiji, if it ever was wide bevel, is not discernable as such. But I could see it getting a little wedgy if it wasn't so heavy.


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## daveb (Jun 25, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> Looking for 300mm..



Got one in bst. Kono. $200. Just saying


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## reagan (Jun 26, 2020)

Didn’t realize konos were so popular for Sujis. I have a 240 W2 kono but looking to upsize.


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## corygrapher (Jun 26, 2020)

What about Takeshi Saji’s Suji? Any ideas?


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## Boondocker (Jun 26, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> Sujis don't get too much talk here so I thought I would like to hear what are other peoples preferences with the sujis, the lenght, height, stiffness, all carbon/stainless,s clad? what do you use it for? Is suji only for slicing protein or do you use it for other products, tasks or tricks too?
> 
> And yes I know that yanagibas do exist but I would like to keep this thread with sujihikis(double bevels).
> 
> I am planning to get 300mm suji later this year, so nothing wrong with some good suggestions



Masamoto, carbon steel. I used mine for whole salmon, and most raw and cooked protein work


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## IsoJ (Jun 26, 2020)

daveb said:


> Got one in bst. Kono. $200. Just saying


I saw that, good price. A bit bad timing for me and I am more towards carbon steel..


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## ChefShramrock (Jun 26, 2020)

I have 2, both stainless. A Kurosaki r2 shizuku 270 and a Masashi sold 270. One for home, one for work. I actually seldom reach for either. Mostly I just use a 240 gyuto for most slicing and portioning.


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