# Takeda question..to have or not have...



## wphill (May 10, 2016)

If I should be so impulsive and pull the trigger on another acquisition,
Takeda lurks in my head. But I have a lot of inhibitions. 

If I may indulge the forum with some obsessive
thinking; share what may be more information than anyone wants to read; and,
confess that I doubt that I actually need another knife No matter,
I would be interested in feedback that might help me move on with with
a decision.

I crave a rustic j-knife with a capital R which looks like a Takeda 210 gyuto;but, I hear that the new
Takeda's have a less desirable (read as thick) grind; hence, there may be a lot of work to thin the grind myself
while always worrying if I am messing with the intended vision of the smith...and, for me, it's an expensive knife.

Most frequent use of our j-knives is weekly mincing produce to keep
in the frig for soups or salads: red peppers, bok choy, carrots, celery, cucumbers,
varied onions, ginger, and sometimes more dense items like celery root or jicama.
And, once a week whole chicken is broken down. 

Knife collection: 
TF 210,
TF nakiri, 
Shibata r-2 bunko 175mm, 
Masakage Koshi 180 gyuto,
Masakage Shimo 210 gyuto, 
Yusuke white #2 240mm,
Ysuke white #2 hankotsus, 
Kanehide ps60 210mm, 
Anryu hammered blue #2 santukos,
Masakage Yuki (tall) parrng knife, 
Kohestu (short) paring knife,
Tanaka vg-10 150mm petty...
plus a few german SS knives which are surprisingly useful. (Hinkel 6inch and 
Marks 10inch chef knife)
a few thinned vintage (Foregecraft styel/quality) domestic carbon knives...oh,
and some very old (cheap) Chinese cleavers with a ton of restoration hours applied.

Hence...I do have some overlap, a tendency toward smaller knives vs 240mm ones, good enough
knife care for all carbon, and a propensity for being a collector. I like the challenge of sharpening and willing to get into the weeds with low grit stones.
My dilemma is that I have a little voice calling out for fewer high quality knvies: one gyuto, one petty,
one paring and one boning. Currently, the knives that my I use most...Hinkel 6inch ss for avocados and lemons, 
the TF nakiri for mincing, the Tanaka for thin slicing cold cooked roast...and the Hankotus for breaking down chickens,
along with the Chinese cleaver for breaking thru bones. And, my wife likes the Kohetsu for one hand cutting
and the Kanehide ps60 for any large knife work. Home cooks.
No complaints about the other knives...just that they like to remind me that they are our children and want to be in
a rotation.

Well, that's my confession even if I am only talking to myself.


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## DanHumphrey (May 10, 2016)

I'm in the same boat in wanting to try a Takeda but not wanting to deal with thinning it, especially since it ain't cheap. But I love the distinct look.


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## cslynch (May 10, 2016)

I talked to the folks at Knifewear just yesterday about exactly this subject. The girl I talked to said she wasn't aware of any real change to the grind...and she handles tons of Takedas. I'm not sure what to take from that since prevailing wisdom here at KKF says the new ones are thick behind the edge. 

You could maybe have your retailer send you a choil shot before pulling the trigger...


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## cslynch (May 10, 2016)

I have the 270 Gyuto, by the way. You can't go wrong!


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## wphill (May 10, 2016)

On fairly good information, the NAS...stainless version has a different grind. Thicker. And, when it comes to thinning...SS is much more tedious.
I prefer the Classic version...all carbon. IF I can figure out the cost vs benefits of forking out almost 400.00. RE Knifewear...really depends upon who
you talk to. My impression is that some reps are quite amicable but are hardly the knife nuts that have good info.


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## easilver (May 10, 2016)

I own a Takeda petty and, though I am fairly new to sharpening, found it very easy to thin. Used a low grit stone and held the knife flatter. Don't know how well you can see it in the upper left of the photo below.

It's great knife and I am planning to buy a Takeda Bunka soon. Also pondering a Takeda Gyuto, but would try to get a flatter one. Some of them look to have a lot of curve.


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## Timthebeaver (May 10, 2016)

cslynch said:


> I talked to the folks at Knifewear just yesterday about exactly this subject. The girl I talked to said she wasn't aware of any real change to the grind...and she handles tons of Takedas. I'm not sure what to take from that since prevailing wisdom here at KKF says the new ones are thick behind the edge.
> 
> You could maybe have your retailer send you a choil shot before pulling the trigger...



The profile of Takeda's gyuto has changed massively since the pioneers were mailing money orders to Japan on a wing and a prayer. The geometry has become a crap shoot. It's not to do with simply being thick behind the edge either. The Takeda geometry calling-card was thin, with a forged hollow. None of the early Takedas were a simple wedge, now it is hit and miss. One thing I would suggest is (from the picures posted) that the shorter blade height (Sasanoha) gyutos are more likely to be simple wedges. Some, including customs have been laughably bad - I think was Magnus who sent it to Greg (and/or back to Japan) to be fixed, it was a pig.

It is also common knowledge that Shosui isn't doing all of the grinding any more.


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## wphill (May 10, 2016)

Tim...all sounds too familiar. If I was to contact a domestic distributor, suggestions on must have criteria?
Should one come up for a resale I would be a better informed consumer too.


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## wphill (May 10, 2016)

Easilver, nice collection and board. What's the bunka that you already have? Next to it looks like a 240 Shimo. Could be that you would find that with the best edge these would do as well as or better than a Takeda. That is the risk?


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## brianh (May 10, 2016)

In my limited experience, Takeda nowadays =


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## wphill (May 10, 2016)

not what we may want to hear, but what we need to hear:running:


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## DanHumphrey (May 10, 2016)

cslynch said:


> I talked to the folks at Knifewear just yesterday about exactly this subject. The girl I talked to said she wasn't aware of any real change to the grind...and she handles tons of Takedas. I'm not sure what to take from that since prevailing wisdom here at KKF says the new ones are thick behind the edge.
> 
> You could maybe have your retailer send you a choil shot before pulling the trigger...



It's not just "prevailing wisdom" - there was a long thread with detailed photographic proof of the changes. The girl at Knifewear may have either never seen the originals (it's a few years ago now), or never paid that close attention - if she's a customer service rep she wouldn't focus that much on the nerdy differences of one particular brand in their lineup.


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## easilver (May 10, 2016)

wphill said:


> Easilver, nice collection and board. What's the bunka that you already have? Next to it looks like a 240 Shimo.



The center knife is a Kochi 240 Gyuto with a Kiritsuke-tip from Japanese Knife Imports. Comes out of the handle with a stout spine then taper down to a think tip. Also very thin behind the edge. Easy to sharpen and fun to use. I very much enjoy this knife.

Board is side-grain teak. Replaced my last end-grain board that split.

Still expanding my collection, but trying to be patient since my preferences change as I gain experience. I plan to buy a Takeda NAS Bunka as my next addition.


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## cslynch (May 10, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> It's not just "prevailing wisdom" - there was a long thread with detailed photographic proof of the changes. The girl at Knifewear may have either never seen the originals (it's a few years ago now), or never paid that close attention - if she's a customer service rep she wouldn't focus that much on the nerdy differences of one particular brand in their lineup.



But she sounded so nice! 

Fair points. I did remember there was a thread here that detailed the changes. I thought maybe that could have been for just one knife though. I definitely defer to the knowledge of the folks on this board. Y'all take knife knowledge to the next level. I've learned a ton here.

Incidentally, I am the one who bought the 270 Takeda Gyuto from Mr. Magnus. One of the biggest selling points to me was that he had shipped it back to Takeda-san (is it acceptable for a gringo to say Takeda-san? That is the correct honorific, right?) to have it re-ground. Does anyone know if Magnus was happy with it with the touched up grind? My feelings won't be hurt either way. I love the thing.

I can't believe, after years of people complaining about the new grind, that they haven't worked it out yet.


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## DanHumphrey (May 10, 2016)

cslynch said:


> But she sounded so nice!
> 
> Fair points. I did remember there was a thread here that detailed the changes. I thought maybe that could have been for just one knife though. I definitely defer to the knowledge of the folks on this board. Y'all take knife knowledge to the next level. I've learned a ton here.
> 
> ...



I'm sure she was nice! That's why they hired her. It's not just one knife though - not only did a few people get the knives and confirm it, but you can go ahead and look at the pictures Dave Martell took and compare them to the pictures on various vendor websites and easily see the very shallow bevels indicative of the new, thicker grind.

My thought was about getting the 150 carbon petty and just thinning it a bit each time I sharpen it. But, again, is that really what I want out of what would be the most expensive knife I've gotten to date, for 2/3 the length of my gyuto which is nice anyway? Decisions. Don't have to decide yet anyway, though.

As for your 270, take a look at the pictures in the Takeda thread and the bevels on yours. If the KU finish extends close to the edge, it's thick. If they're closer to half an inch, it's good.


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## LucasFur (May 10, 2016)

I got my 240 Takeda probably 5 months ago from knifewear and it was a wedging machine, drove me up the wall. 
Thinning out was a easy process though. I will start a thread about it in the next couple days, i have a slightly different way of approaching the issue then most people. ( I want to take a few photos do describe my what i am showing) 

but to the OP ... get rid of a few, money that is made put towards the takeda, its what i would do. :dance4:


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## wphill (May 10, 2016)

Lucas...yeah....if I want to get a Takeda...thin my relatively small herd and get down with thinning. I hear ya.
Was your 240 stainless or the classic model?


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## LucasFur (May 10, 2016)

Its really cool. Its the iron clad model stamped NAS ... yes i know it seams incorrect. But as verified by knifewear and a few other knife nuts, shes legitimately incorrectly stamped. Supposedly its one of (if not "the") last iron clad to come from the factory. 
I will talk about it if i get around to making the post tonight/tomorrow after work.


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## wphill (May 10, 2016)

Really, no more "classic" models being produced? Wow.


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## DanHumphrey (May 10, 2016)

Wait they're all going to be stainless now? Eff me, either I'll buy soon or not at all. Guess that'd make my decision easier though.


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## preizzo (May 10, 2016)

I own a ss takeda 250 mm gyuto and it s an amazing knife. No need to thinning down. 
I owned also a sasanoha 250 mm gyuto and I thinned a bit because it needed too. 
My conclusion is that not all the takeda s need to be thinned, talk first with the vendor and ask them that you looking for a takeda with not so much shoulder.
Takeda s(like dalman s knives) have a s grind so you don't need a flat grind takeda otherwise you can buy a konosuke hd which is a terrific cutter with a flat grind.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 10, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Wait they're all going to be stainless now? Eff me, either I'll buy soon or not at all. Guess that'd make my decision easier though.



I thought the carbons would still be made by special request, although I'm sure some vendors will have either stock or request some on their orders.


This is what a Takeda ought to look like:


cclin said:


> Takeda custom NAS 240 gyuto. What good Takeda knife should be....



My 270 NAS gyuto doesn't look like that but it seems to cut well either that or I don't know what "cut well" means lol. It doesn't look too thick at the shoulders (but doesn't have this high of a grind either), but I sent it to JKI nonetheless so Jon could check it out


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## RDalman (May 10, 2016)

I still haven't tried a takeda :s but judging from pictures it looks very similar. if one wants to measure, I've found that about 1,3-1,5 mm thick at about 10 mm from the edge is where it will start making resistance (wedge) in hard produce.

Oh look I have a tag now :stinker:


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## aboynamedsuita (May 11, 2016)

RDalman said:


> I still haven't tried a takeda :s but judging from pictures it looks very similar. if one wants to measure, I've found that about 1,3-1,5 mm thick at about 10 mm from the edge is where it will start making resistance (wedge) in hard produce.
> 
> Oh look I have a tag now :stinker:



If I still know how to do trig that'd be 3.7°-4.3° per side, nice and a cute. Of corse there are other dimensions to this, eg the longer the length of this acute bevel will cause problems, so convexing (concave up if you think of derivatives) will essentially mean that the further the knife cuts with respect to heel height, it is forcing the product apart at a decreasing rate. I should save math for work but can see the applications to knife geometry (probably a sign it's time to call it a night)


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## wphill (May 11, 2016)

Tj....great choil shot...I get it.
Gets me excited. 
The chase wears me out and then I'm back at it.
I even ponder stainless clad as more practical...or, maybe it's not me.
Hopeless indecisive consumer. irate1:


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## wphill (May 14, 2016)

Any one ever emailed takeda with a request for the older original grind?
He seems to have gone to a zero grind. Makes a mess of a knife when thinning.
Old story and hard for me to buy into his change in the grind.


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## preizzo (May 14, 2016)

Some member already did it but I can't found it


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 14, 2016)

preizzo said:


> Some member already did it but I can't found it



This thread on the subject is worth a read: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...o-look-for-(now)-to-keep-from-getting-screwed


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## chinacats (May 14, 2016)

I'd suggest that the answer to the original question is that you should most definitely try one and then you'll easily figure out whether you'll keep it. Among J-blades it stands out in my mind as being somewhat unique. FWIW, the one I bought used was a rather early one that has gotten to the point of needing a bit of work. It still cut pretty well but I couldn't stand the rather small (though nice) rosewood handle with the huge blob of glue.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 14, 2016)

wphill said:


> Any one ever emailed takeda with a request for the older original grind?
> He seems to have gone to a zero grind. Makes a mess of a knife when thinning.
> Old story and hard for me to buy into his change in the grind.



I believe cclin did just that with the one I linked earlier in the thread. My understanding is that a zero grind (in addition to a being a misnomer) doesn't require thinning as you sharpen the entire bevel with the same angle, and if a true wide bevel or S grind the length of the bevel will not grow so thickness behind edge stays the same.

You can also see some old grinds on zknives (can also see how much the prices have gone up :shocked3: ):
http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/ktknv/makers/takeda/index.shtml



chinacats said:


> I'd suggest that the answer to the original question is that you should most definitely try one and then you'll easily figure out whether you'll keep it. Among J-blades it stands out in my mind as being somewhat unique. FWIW, the one I bought used was a rather early one that has gotten to the point of needing a bit of work. It still cut pretty well but I couldn't stand the rather small (though nice) rosewood handle with the huge blob of glue.



The handle on my 270 NAS was seriously about the size I like on a petty lol. Helped with the "blade forward" balance but WAY too small for me (in terms of both cross section and length). Stefan will be helping me make this right.

The epoxy is kind of gross and starts to peel after awhile. I don't really buy the argument used that it keeps water out, if the tang slot is properly filled it's unnecessary


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## RDalman (May 15, 2016)

If one want to clean up the blob of glue here are some tips. Cut with a knife if you dare, sharpen a piece of brass to scrape off of the blade, the brass is softer than the blade and will not scratch it. Wipe away the last bits with acetone.

These are just general advice, I haven't seen a takeda yet


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## chefcomesback (May 15, 2016)

RDalman said:


> If one want to clean up the blob of glue here are some tips. Cut with a knife if you dare, sharpen a piece of brass to scrape off of the blade, the brass is softer than the blade and will not scratch it. Wipe away the last bits with acetone.
> 
> These are just general advice, I haven't seen a takeda yet



Takedas are clad knives , even with brass you will scratch the soft cladding stainless or iron , over the kuro uchi finish it will be quite visible too


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (May 15, 2016)

Bill,

I explained your conundrum to Mary Lu and she said, "Sounds like he's chasing the fantasy of an ideal rather than the reality." Gotta love her. She keeps me grounded without being a dream killer. 

Cheers,

Rick


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## wphill (May 15, 2016)

Rick...Realism and kindness in one bundle. You guys make a fine paring. Very diplomatic.
I do excel at self-torture. Could be that it's time to let this one go...I think.


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## Brian Weekley (Jun 21, 2019)

I have about a half dozen Takeda AS knives and love them all. Extremely thin, well ground and sharp, but most are older. I have a 300 gyuto that I take delight in push cutting a big boneless ham like it was a carrot. Amazing knife. I buy most takeda AS blades that I find. Not many around any more. The NAS stainless clad seem much thicker to me. As for Knifewear YMMV depending on who you talk to. Had one of their managers? Suggest I celebrate the purchase of a 270 sujihiki by making tacos with it .... tacos??? Made me wonder whether he had ever used a sujihiki. Like I say YMMV. Am I wrong but there seems a trend that long standing Japanese bladesmiths are turning more and more of their production over to less skilled apprentices yet taking advantage of the premium pricing their names command?


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 21, 2019)

I have the same good experience with Takeda, although mine are a few years old, all AS (carbon cladded) knives. My advice is get them from Tosho and ask them to be as thin as possible behind the edge.


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## J.C (Jun 22, 2019)

Received my takeda NAS bunka 220mm, used a bit for prep and then put it in drawer and forgot about it, i took it out yesterday for general cleaning and oiling all the knives. And i found my takeda has curved slightly on the edge part, its so minimal that only if you put it on the flat surface you will notice. It was basically still brand new, never sharpened. Now im worried if it will curved even more in the future


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## Brian Weekley (Jun 22, 2019)

I got my 300 gyuto from Tosho. I love it! I bought a Takeda Yanigaba from Chubb. Turns out it really is a sujihiki and has a couple of wiggles in the blade. It doesn’t really affect the cutting performance but were it to develop into a curve I expect it would seriously complicate sharpening. I have no first hand experience but understand that blades can be returned to Takeda’s shop for straightening if needed.


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## McMan (Jun 22, 2019)

Plus, there've been some changes to Takeda's grind in the past three years since this thread was last active


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## Brian Weekley (Jun 22, 2019)

Which brings me to the point of how many “Takeda’s” are now produced by the master versus how many are produced by less skilled apprentices. Am I wrong or does the move to stainless factory clad blades eliminate the more difficult task of forge welding softer reactive steel to a hard carbon core. As for me I tend to stick to reactive clad blades for the majority of my purchases.


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## J.C (Jun 22, 2019)

Here’s the photo to show you how it curved. The spine is perfectly straight. Just the cutting edge side that feels like a slight curve in the middle part.
I tried to send Takeda-san a message. But he insist for me to send it to him so he can check it directly and by doing that, for whatever might happen, i need to pay the shipping for each way which will cost around 100-120$aud. 
If he will fix the knife, im happy to pay the shipping cost. But what if he decide that theres nothing wrong with it, and he will explain that his knife is tools for kitchen and every single one will have their own “unique” characteristic and so on.
I can say this because i have friend who sent his knife back because there were problem with the handle. And he sent it back to my friend and said it is fixed when nothing is done. In the end, all he has is regret and losing that 120$


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## Brian Weekley (Jun 22, 2019)

Hmmmm .... a difficult one. I would probably send it in with the expectation that it would be straight on its return. I don’t see a curve like yours as falling within the parameters of a “normal variation”. Given that it is a NAS blade it is current production and could be replaced if it couldn’t be straightened. That would be my expectation. What does the seller of the Takeda say about the curve?


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