# Monosteel workhorses and honyaki



## Nemo

Hi everyone. I've been thinking and reading about honyaki gyutos. There seem to be different opinions around whether there is anything special about them in use (obviously there is lots special in making them, which is part of the allure) as compared with high quality monosteel gyutos.

Which got me to thinking, are all of the monosteel knives thin or are there (non-honyaki, non custom) high quality monosteel workorses around?

Thanks.


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## malexthekid

In practical terms that is what honyakis can be... since maintenance on a monosteel workhorse could potentially be hell... just ask anyone who has done some work on their aritsugu a-type gyutos (i want to thin mine but am dreading to prospect with my current tools).

I am sure there are some out there but San Mai was created for a reason.. so you would have to ask why choose a monosteel knife over san mai for the style


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## Nemo

Yeah, that thought had crossed my mind. I kind of wondered if that was why I couldn't think of many workhorse monosteels.


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## Nemo

malexthekid said:


> just ask anyone who has done some work on their aritsugu a-type gyutos (i want to thin mine but am dreading to prospect with my current tools).
> 
> I am sure there are some out there but San Mai was created for a reason.. so you would have to ask why choose a monosteel knife over san mai for the style



Yeah, I just read the zknives description of thinning an A-type. 3 hours on DMT wow.

As to why, I guess I'm just curious about the "improved feel", "knife is alive" way in which some people describe honyaki and I wondered if this also applied to monosteel (and, indeed if this was something that everyone could perceive).


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## Ivang

My monosteel knives have a livelier feedback than my clad ones.


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## Nemo

What do you mean by "livlier feedback"? Are you talking about feeling when you hit a harder layer of food or hit the board?


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## bkultra

If the knife in question is properly laminated, then there should be no difference in feedback. I have heard people state otherwise and I can only assume it's a poorly laminated blade or placebo effect.


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## Dan P.

bkultra said:


> If the knife in question is properly laminated, then there should be no difference in feedback. I have heard people state otherwise and I can only assume it's a poorly laminated blade or placebo effect.



Maybe it's placebo effect, but I can easily imagine a monosteel would give different feedback, especially if one were cutting through something hard or crisp, simply by merit of the deadening effect soft cladding would have on any vibration coming from the knife, perceived via touch or sound.


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## tsuriru

I agree. Perhaps it could be said that a monosteel (read honyaki) has a bit more resilience in as far as it's display of "springiness" can be sensed. Even the best lamination will dampen this resilience as this is just how waves tend to propagate in the universe. Even so, a properly done differential heat treat will still dampen vibration to a certain extent as the back of the blade is softer than the cutting edge. Thats what it is diferentially heat treated for in the first place. is it not?


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## bkultra

A difference would arise from disparity in elastic modulus between composite materials, which shouldn't be much different between two steels. Stiffness is controlled by the Elastic modulus which is unaffected by heat treatment. It's controlled by the strength of the bond between atoms. Therefore any change would have to be from alloying or from being a different phase (i.e. Austenite). However, even highly alloyed, austenitic stainless steel has essentially the same elastic modulus.


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## panda

Bk, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Mono feels vastly different in use vs san mai. For example, you can sense the grains in food you're cutting with a KS, but that same sensation is muted with a Takeda.


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## milkbaby

I don't have enough experience comparing monosteel to clad, but there is never underestimating the placebo effect. Plus our senses can often be extremely sensitive to all inputs, so even if the sound is different, that may be a psychological clue to us that makes us feel a difference that perhaps is not necessarily measurable quantitatively. For example, cyclists riding at high speed on bicycles will perceive it as being harder effort when the wind noise is in their ears is higher; if they wear an "ear blinder" their perception of effort goes down even though going the same speed and will be able to ride further than when exposed to the wind noise.


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## tsuriru

bkultra said:


> A difference would arise from disparity in elastic modulus between composite materials, which shouldn't be much different between two steels. Stiffness is controlled by the Elastic modulus which is unaffected by heat treatment. It's controlled by the strength of the bond between atoms. Therefore any change would have to be from alloying or from being a different phase (i.e. Austenite). However, even highly alloyed, austenitic stainless steel has essentially the same elastic modulus.



+1


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## bkultra

I know this was recently brought up in another thread but people also often refer to Honyaki as being stiffer. There is no difference in stiffness between hard and soft metals. Thickness and geometry affects stiffness.

Edit: I've become the ghost of Larrin Thomas Ph.D.

My posts are based on what he has taught us. I'm simply repeating what he has previously said


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## Dan P.

E


bkultra said:


> There is no difference in stiffness between hard and soft metals. Thickness and geometry affects stiffness



That's as may be, but personally if I was attacked by a knife-wielding madman, I'd rather he be wielding a knife made of 2mm thick lead than a knife made of hardened 2mm thick carbon steel... for stiffness reasons...


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## Ivang

Nemo said:


> What do you mean by "livlier feedback"? Are you talking about feeling when you hit a harder layer of food or hit the board?



Yes, I can feel what I'm cutting with a lot more accuracy with a monosteel knife. Maybe it's a placebo effect, but it feels real in practice


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## bkultra

Elastic modulus is an intrinsic material property and fundamentally related to atomic bonding. Hardness is an engineering property and for some materials it can be related to yield strength. Hardness has strong usefulness in characterization of different types of microstructures in metals and is frequently used in the context of comparing things like work-hardened and tempered metals. The classic experiment in this regard is the Jominy end-quench test . There are no apparent changes in elastic modulus in metals that have undergone different hardening treatments so the hardness is a good indication of the underlying microstructure. In metals undergoing indentation deformation, the majority of deformation is plastic and the hardness gives a good metric of plastic deformation differences between materials.

In metals, we know in general that grain size, dislocation density, precipitations, et al. have a strong influence on the strength of materials with almost no change in elasticity.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

"you can sense the grains in food you're cutting" with the Takamura red too - which is not monosteel.


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## bkultra

Dan P. said:


> That's as may be, but personally if I was attacked by a knife-wielding madman, I'd rather he be wielding a knife made of 2mm thick lead than a knife made of hardened 2mm thick carbon steel... for *plasticity* reasons...



Fixed... In engineering, the transition from elastic behavior to plastic behavior is called yield.


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## malexthekid

bkultra said:


> Fixed... In engineering, the transition from elastic behavior to plastic behavior is called yield.



Yes that is the yield point... but material also is an important part of the stiffness equation.... or are you suggesting that a 2x4 of timber is equally as stiff as a 2x4 of mild steel? Yes they have the same second moment of inertia but that is only part of the equation.


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## bkultra

malexthekid said:


> Yes that is the yield point... but material also is an important part of the stiffness equation.... or are you suggesting that a 2x4 of timber is equally as stiff as a 2x4 of mild steel? Yes they have the same second moment of inertia but that is only part of the equation.



When did I state material would not have an effect? I tried to always point out I was speaking in regards to metals several times and as I said previously there is no difference in stiffness between hard and soft metals.


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## malexthekid

bkultra said:


> When did I state material would not have an effect? I tried to always point out I was speaking in regards to metals several times and as I said previously there is no difference in stiffness between hard and soft metals.



My bad... one of your statements is slightly open to interpretation.. rereading now I see its in reference to the same material... reading it first time it appeared as if you were saying stiffeness is purely dependent on cross section... also in altering Dan's post... though I suppose you are correct there when one thinks of the likely outcome of that situation and he should have used a more elastic material as an example.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@bkultra I remember, as a boy, putting quite decent edges on the kind of metal tapes pallets of bricks come packaged with... and these are indeed very elastic


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## Nemo

Thanks everyone for your input.

Would it be reasonable to summarise that many people experience improved feedback about what they are cutting with a monosteel but we can't provide a physics/ engineering explanation for this?

Do people who feel this think that honyakis are in anyway different to other monosteel knives? Or does it depend?


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## malexthekid

Nemo said:


> Thanks everyone for your input.
> 
> Would it be reasonable to summarise that many people experience improved feedback about what they are cutting with a monosteel but we can't provide a physics/ engineering explanation for this?
> 
> Do people who feel this think that honyakis are in anyway different to other monosteel knives? Or does it depend?



Personally I haven't but its a bit hard to compare given the rarity of perfectly identical knives in san mai and mono-steel. Of peoplw feel differences it may be the knife geometry and profile rather than the material... or it may be unconscious bias... personally all of my knives just feel different to each other.


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## scott.livesey

Nemo said:


> Which got me to thinking, are all of the monosteel knives thin or are there (non-honyaki, non custom) high quality monosteel workorses around?
> Thanks.



there are many, but they are called chef's knives and are made by companies with French, German, or English names. Unfortunately, most you find in stores is not very high quality. so you are stuck buying one online, the same way you would buy a Aritsugu or Fujiwara.
scott


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## Kippington

Dan P. said:


> Maybe it's placebo effect, but I can easily imagine a monosteel would give different feedback, especially if one were cutting through something hard or crisp, simply by merit of the deadening effect soft cladding would have on any vibration coming from the knife, perceived via touch or sound.



I'm no expert so take this with a grain of salt or look it up, etc.
People much smarter then me have explained that the stiffness of steel isn't dependent on whether it's hardened or not and is pretty much the same across the board with different steels (Young's modulus).

Plasticity changes with hardness, but that means the only way you'd feel any difference is if you were hitting hard enough to dent the steel.

I reckon it's a placebo effect, and one that's affecting me! I swear I can feel a difference!


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## Dan P.

Kippington said:


> I'm no expert so take this with a grain of salt or look it up, etc.
> People much smarter then me have explained that the stiffness of steel isn't dependent on whether it's hardened or not and is pretty much the same across the board with different steels (Young's modulus).
> 
> Plasticity changes with hardness, but that means the only way you'd feel any difference is if you were hitting hard enough to dent the steel.
> 
> I reckon it's a placebo effect, and one that's affecting me! I swear I can feel a difference!



I don't disagree, necessarily, but I can tell the difference between pure iron or wrought iron and mild steel quite easily by sound, and I imagine this could be scaled down (up?) to apply to clad knives and/or "feel".

Texture of the cutting surface will also differ between steel and iron/mild steel too, as a result of different rates of abrasion and also as a result of different rates or types of patination.

I'm not wedded to any particular conclusion, just open to the idea that there are various factors at play.


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## rick alen

Do some google searching and it appears YM is only constant for pure materials, and there will be differences between relatively pure iron and hardened carbon steel. The must be a reason that makers of fine yanajiba, usuba, etc, insist on using a relatively pure iron backing to help dampen shock stresses to the very thin and hard edges of these knives.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@rick alen could that reason have to do with thermal expansion etc...? If you used something that expanded at a different rate than the core steel, that would bend... and that is not good at all in a usuba....


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## tsuriru

IMHO clad steel is simply a remnant of a world where fine steel is far - far more expensive than Iron. (edit) of course this is not to suggest that dampening, etc. dont account for anything or that differential HT is a useless feature in kitchen cutlery. Far from it.


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## rick alen

In terms of thermal expansion I believe pure iron is essentially identical to carbon steel, which in this case is no more really than 1.5% of carbon. On top of that the forgings are aloud to normalize for 3 months before final grinding to shape. I believe they would have to see some very high temps for even slight thermal expansion distortion to take place, and all would likely return to original shape upon cooling as no bend-set would take place at the likely minimal displacements. And after all these knives have been constructed this way for many decades now.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@rick alen What if you wanted a stainless but soft material (which does work with stainless-clad carbon knives, which however are almost always double bevel, which would probably have no problems as long as the tensions don't rip it apart - you might even get a beneficial effect from them)?


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## rick alen

As to Laren's comments here, just let me say that it is not impossible for a Ph.D. student to have a slight misconception over basic principles and concepts, and these misconceptions can carry on until that brick wall finally gets hit. My quick google of the matter I'd say is possibly not 100% reliable either. But in empirical terms my own subjective experience seems to indicate that hardened steels resist bending more so than when annealed. Same subjective experience when comparing full hard 7075 aluminum (right around 100K psi tensile by my actual testing) to full hard 6061 (less than 60K psi tensile), all with my associate's insistence of no resistance to bending difference by his understanding of YM.


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## malexthekid

The thermal expansion properties are really only key for forging etc... its when you are playing with those high heats that the small differences between different steels may have some issue.

As for its young's modulus... pure iron seems to get 211 GPa, structural steel is about 200 GPa, stainless is somewhere in the 180 to 200 range, so basically similar, and not enough to cause any difference.

Probably more to do with historic cost of pure steels.... does make me wonder what the history behind honyaki is.


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## panda

This thread is now officially nuked.


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## valgard

lus1:


panda said:


> This thread is now officially nuked.


:threadjacked:


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## rick alen

Did I miss something here? Oh yeh, no direct connection to the OP, but indirectly interesting NTL.


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## Dan P.

rick alen said:


> In terms of thermal expansion I believe pure iron is essentially identical to carbon steel, which in this case is no more really than 1.5% of carbon. On top of that the forgings are aloud to normalize for 3 months before final grinding to shape. I believe they would have to see some very high temps for even slight thermal expansion distortion to take place, and all would likely return to original shape upon cooling as no bend-set would take place at the likely minimal displacements. And after all these knives have been constructed this way for many decades now.



Ive had the steel core of a San mai blade tear itself apart during ht because of the rate of expansion/contraction/whatever was so different from the iron cladding. 
Somewhere on the internet is a picture of a sanmai knife that pulled itself apart down the middle like a banana split, something to do with cryogenic treatment. Pretty wild.


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## labor of love

tsuriru said:


> IMHO clad steel is simply a remnant of a world where fine steel is far - far more expensive than Iron. (edit) of course this is not to suggest that dampening, etc. dont account for anything or that differential HT is a useless feature in kitchen cutlery. Far from it.



You're right, that is your opinion.


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## Ruso

I have two monosteel blades, HD2 and Ginga. I do not feel any difference compared to san-mai. I tried though, I really tried!


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## paulraphael

I haven't used nearly enough knives form any worthwhile generalizations. I can say that the few clad gyutos I've used felt dull and "damped" and the couple of monosteel ones have felt lively. There could certainly be some placebo effect here. And also the effect someone mentioned above of conflating different kinds of sensory information (sound of the knife against the board, etc.).

There are also too many variables in my comparison. The clad gyutos I've used were thicker than the monosteel ones. And cheaper!

So it's not possible for me to draw any important conclusions, but since I like the feel of the monosteel knives, I've developed a bit of a prejudice. I'd be more shy about buying a clad knife without trying it first.

As far as the value of tactile feedback ... that's hard to say, other than I like it and I find that it inspires confidence.


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## Dan P.

labor of love said:


> You're right, that is your opinion.



To be fair, it is an opinion borne (sp?)out by the evidence.


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## Matus

Dan P. said:


> Ive had the steel core of a San mai blade tear itself apart during ht because of the rate of expansion/contraction/whatever was so different from the iron cladding.
> Somewhere on the internet is a picture of a sanmai knife that pulled itself apart down the middle like a banana split, something to do with cryogenic treatment. Pretty wild.



Dan, that was a knife by Ian Haburn - he mixed the blades up and thought he was treating a monosteel knife, bur it was san-mai. Looked very spectacular indeed.


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## tsuriru

labor of love said:


> You're right, that is your opinion.



I am aware of that. But thank you for pointing it out to me none the less.


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## Dan P.

Matus said:


> Dan, that was a knife by Ian Haburn - he mixed the blades up and thought he was treating a monosteel knife, bur it was san-mai. Looked very spectacular indeed.



The force involved must be extraordinary. 
I had something much less spectacular happen with W2 and wrought iron, in standard ht.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Pre-tensioning/compression is used in other engineering areas to make stuff act harder/stiffer than it is... and forcing things to cool while they are "arguing" allows you to keep compression in a material (isn't that what happens on a microscopic level in hardening?)... is that taken advantage of with cladded blades?


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## malexthekid

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Pre-tensioning/compression is used in other engineering areas to make stuff act harder/stiffer than it is... and forcing things to cool while they are "arguing" allows you to keep compression in a material (isn't that what happens on a microscopic level in hardening?)... is that taken advantage of with cladded blades?



Gotta correct you here but pre-tensioning is predominantly used to pre-deflect structures... aka introduce a hog into a beam so that once loaded it becomes flat or a slight sag rather than a large sag... this works because generally modern structures are deflection governed rather than strength governed.


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## Nemo

valgard said:


> lus1:
> 
> :threadjacked:



Nah, it's obliquely relevent to the original question, so I'm still listening.


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## bkultra

Just making fun of myself here


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## malexthekid

bkultra said:


> Just making fun of myself here



I fail to see the joke here.... is it that some people don't talk about physics? ;-)


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## labor of love

Dan P. said:


> To be fair, it is an opinion borne (sp?)out by the evidence.



Wrong. If you think San Mai still exist because of costs then perhaps you should
Check out the prices kato, shig and others are going for compared to mono super duper retention, edge stability or some other BS.


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## malexthekid

They never said they exist currently for cost. they said their historical use was likely for cost.... now-a-days it is more historic use/practical benefit of softer cladding.

And PS the price of goods for sale doesnt necessarily reflect the cost of materials inputted.


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## labor of love

malexthekid said:


> They never said they exist currently for cost. they said their historical use was likely for cost.... now-a-days it is more historic use/practical benefit of softer cladding.
> 
> And PS the price of goods for sale doesnt necessarily reflect the cost of materials inputted.


Duh. What do you think the cost of making you're own core steel runs ya? Not cheap. Even in modern times San Mai still rules.


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## malexthekid

Ummm aren't you just arguing against yourself.... if the cost of making your own core steel.is so high then the logical answer is that san mai is the cheaper construction... cause you are making less of the expensive steel.... but you know...


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## labor of love

malexthekid said:


> They never said they exist currently for cost. they said their historical use was likely for cost.... now-a-days it is more historic use/practical benefit of softer cladding.
> 
> And PS the price of goods for sale doesnt necessarily reflect the cost of materials inputted.



Also, if you think the same heat treat that creates a nice core steel also creates a terrific stiff stable
Blade then you are just lost. The characteristics of nice core
Steel differ from entire blade integrity(for lack of a better phrase)unless were talking about differential hrc mono is just compromise.


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## tsuriru

San-Mai Go-mai Hachi-mai.....my oh my! It was stimulating while it lasted, alas, it is fast regressing into something I no longer wish to be a part of. I'll see you folks on another thread I guess.


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## malexthekid

Mate I have no idea what you are talking about.... however it seems you wish to ignore ghe information given by people that are knowledgable in this other than just knives... aka basically all steels are equally stiff... plus or minus a few percent...

Meaning in terms of stiffness, mono, clad, honyaki don't make a difference. What would is the geometry of the blade.

I can't see what you are arguing apart from just arguing for the sake of it...

Sorry but it is highly likely than san mai was originally created due to the exceptionally high cost of creating pure steels for using on edges.


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## labor of love

malexthekid said:


> Ummm aren't you just arguing against yourself.... if the cost of making your own core steel.is so high then the logical answer is that san mai is the cheaper construction... cause you are making less of the expensive steel.... but you know...



If you are unwilling to understand the benefits of diff hardening then I don't know what to tell ya. It's not about economics, it's about creating a favorable blade that doesn't cost $800+ for
Jmakers or whatever suckers are willing to pay for American makers.


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## labor of love

malexthekid said:


> Mate I have no idea what you are talking about.... however it seems you wish to ignore ghe information given by people that are knowledgable in this other than just knives... aka basically all steels are equally stiff... plus or minus a few percent...
> 
> Meaning in terms of stiffness, mono, clad, honyaki don't make a difference. What would is the geometry of the blade.
> 
> I can't see what you are arguing apart from just arguing for the sake of it...
> 
> Sorry but it is highly likely than san mai was originally created due to the exceptionally high cost of creating pure steels for using on edges.


Stiffness? It's not all about stiffness.


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## malexthekid

You understand that "springiness" and "damping" are a function of the stiffness of the blade? And stiffness is determined by geometry and material?

What other benefits are you referring to? The ease it provides for maintenance?


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## Dan P.

I think the continuing use of sanmai in Japan is more about their work practices which developed out of the necessity of using laminates (as we all were 150-200 years ago), and has been retained due a disinclination to change, for whatever reason (I'm sure there are many).

In reality, a laminated blade, whether made from pre-laminated or in-shop laminate, is always going to be more expensive to make than a mono steel blade.


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## labor of love

malexthekid said:


> You understand that "springiness" and "damping" are a function of the stiffness of the blade? And stiffness is determined by geometry and material?
> 
> What other benefits are you referring to? The ease it provides for maintenance?



You do understand that stiffness isn't everything? Do you also understand that stiffness is Achieved easily in San Mai? Do you understand that what is best for the interior of a blade isn't also necessarily what is best for the exterior? Have you ever thinned a blade in your entire life?


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## labor of love

Dan P. said:


> I think the continuing use of sanmai in Japan is more about their work practices which developed out of the necessity of using laminates (as we all were 150-200 years ago), and has been retained due a disinclination to change, for whatever reason (I'm sure there are many).
> 
> In reality, a laminated blade, whether made from pre-laminated or in-shop laminate, is always going to be more expensive to make than a mono steel blade.



Lol, yes forshners are cheaper than tojiros.


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## malexthekid

F**k me whats your problem? How about you articulate your point rather than ranting at me.

Are you trying to say san mai was created for thinning knives? Where is your reference? What suggests this is the case?


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## panda

you two afterschool, playground under the monkey bars.


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## valgard

panda said:


> you two afterschool, playground under the monkey bars.


lus1:


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## malexthekid

panda said:


> you two afterschool, playground under the monkey bars.



Only if you are there to adjudicate.


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## valgard

malexthekid said:


> Only if you are there to adjudicate.


nah, if you ever did that you should know there is no need for a verdict, it's all about releasing stress


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## labor of love

malexthekid said:


> F**k me whats your problem? How about you articulate your point rather than ranting at me.
> 
> Are you trying to say san mai was created for thinning knives? Where is your reference? What suggests this is the case?


Soft iron cladding? Ever heard of it?


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## valgard

You guys should seriously stop, I think this is out of character for this forum and now one is going to "win".


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## panda

i got $5 on it


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## malexthekid

I hope you are backing the underdog so the return is worth it.


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## Ruso

I still have some popcorn left, please continue!!!


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## Nemo

Too hot for popcorn today. I got a chock top!


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## Larrin

rick alen said:


> As to Laren's comments here, just let me say that it is not impossible for a Ph.D. student to have a slight misconception over basic principles and concepts, and these misconceptions can carry on until that brick wall finally gets hit. My quick google of the matter I'd say is possibly not 100% reliable either. But in empirical terms my own subjective experience seems to indicate that hardened steels resist bending more so than when annealed. Same subjective experience when comparing full hard 7075 aluminum (right around 100K psi tensile by my actual testing) to full hard 6061 (less than 60K psi tensile), all with my associate's insistence of no resistance to bending difference by his understanding of YM.


http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/s.../post/1479073/hl/bucket/fromsearch/1/#1479073


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## bkultra

Welcome back Larrin... maybe I can stop quoting and posting to your past posts now.


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## Larrin

bkultra said:


> Welcome back Larrin... maybe I can stop quoting and posting to your past posts now.


Where you see only one set of footprints, that is when I carried you.


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