# what are you shooting? (handgun thread)



## panda

i've decided to get a beretta m9a3 with tax money. will be first time owning a gun although i've shot plenty times before. any tips/good-to-knows/etc as a first time gun owner? such as maintenance, potential mods and such..

so ammo is going to get expensive fast, where should i buy in bulk? any specific rounds you recommend? looking for economy but reliable.


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## Kgp

There’s an app called Ammo Seek that compares prices. Decent name brand target grade can usually be had for .20/round in bulk. I got 1000 rounds of Winchester from Midway couple of months ago for $199 and free shipping.

You can usually find cheaper steel cased, such as Wolf, but for not much more you can stay with name brand brass.

Ken


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## Anton

Glock 19 
Berreta 92fs

Beretta are fairly insensitive to ammo IMO and seem to handle most, lube it properly and it will shoot all the +p you can afford to feed it, but will probable love 124 grain. Start with 115 gr FMJ - Wolf WPA MC? it's cheapish. 

I would just make sure you use some decent amount of defensive ammo to start with, definitely want to be sure it functions properly with the better ammo. Stick with the top 4 or 5 major ammo manufacturers, Winchester, Speer/CCI, Federal, Remington.


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## bkultra

If you need it to work 100% of the time and care about nothing else... Glock 19. You want something sexier Sig ... Want the best STI


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## playero

when reliability and precision is on the table only my HK P7M13 will work ALWAYS


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## Chicagohawkie

Get yourself a long gun, you’ll thank me later.


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## Ryndunk

Ruger sp101. I prefer wheel guns!


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## ThinMan

Ammoman.com

Not familiar with that Beretta. For 9mm I like my SIG 226.


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## Bert2368

I got my first instructor credentials in 1977. Have introduced a few to shooting since, none of 'em died.


Maybe you would best get a .22 pistol for a start? Cheap ammo, quieter, less recoil to distract you while you learn about sight picture and trigger/action manipulation.

But if you want to jump into centerfire pistols right off the bat...

I am going to be contrarian.

The US Gov't. chose the Beretta 92 for reasons OTHER than the handling and accuracy qualities a civilian user (especially a brand new one!) would/should prioritize. And DOD made that choice before the polymer framed handguns got to be adequately well worked out systems and took over much of the market.

Mainly, the 92 is a euro design and the 9mm is a dual purpose round for subguns as well as pistols, cheaper, lighter ammo for logistics, AND as a sop to the rest of NATO after we ****ed them all with the 7.62/5.56 for battle rifles & "assault rifles" & MGs, plus it's somewhat reliable and cheap compared to a basic milled steel 1911, especially if the DOD buys a **** ton of them.

What is not for a new shooter to like?

9mm is a high pressure round, the recoil impulse of a 115gr 9mm in total foot pounds may be less than that of a standard 240gr .45ACP, but it is comparatively SHARP and more painful/distracting/flinch promoting than the .45, both from personal experience and the feedback given by people I have taught to shoot auto pistols. The .40 S&W is even worse in this regard.

Please, consider a polymer framed .45.

Right now, this Walther PPQ full size .45 is what I am suggesting for new shooters getting into center fire pistol:

https://www.gunbuyer.com/walther-ppq-45-m2-4-blk-wal2807076-e.html

I personally own the version with a slightly longer threaded barrel, it is kinder to the neighbors if I practice with a suppressor.







Look at Hickock.45s impression on first shooting this version of the PPQ and see what you think? This old man is more experienced than I.


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## Anton

bkultra said:


> If you need it to work 100% of the time and care about nothing else... Glock 19. You want something sexier Sig ... Want the best STI


Can't argue those STI are some sexy beast, STI DVC is next


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## panda

hawkie - i want an ak47

that was a cool video, that dude can shoot!
my heart is set on the beretta. i've shot sig p226 and hk vp9, still i vibe better with m9. would like to try out a cz 75 at some point.


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## daveb

I like the Glock 21. Though it's primary purpose is to give me time to get to my shotgun(s).


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## Bert2368

Glocks have been out long enough for most of the bugs to be worked out, but the grip ergonomics do not work for my wide, short fingered "farmer hands". Gaston Glock has some... personal and family issues, but the pistol design with his name on it has matured.

The Sig has the barrel just a bit too high for my taste, but it IS a Swiss design, only people more obsessive-compulsive than the Germans over weapons design. I have a K31 and deeply regret not having one of the semi auto only civilian versions of the Stg58 which were briefly imported into USA.

I have a P7M8 for a 9mm, lowest bore of any common pistol and a beautifully accurate, sensible design. Bought it because of thr accuracy and slick system to have if I were ever going to use a mid sized 9mm as a carry pistol. But I don't carry it, because I wouldn't be able to replace it if I ever had to use it. Sucks.

Got several iterations of the Beretta 92 and 96, everything from the short slide police version to a stainless steel "brigadier". They ARE OK. They too have been around the block long enough for all the issues to have been found and worked out. But they don't do what the H&K or the Walther do so effortlessly for me, getting hits on target as quickly and precisely as possible.

The CZ75 is a good pistol, if I couldn't have the Walther or H&K, I would choose the CZ over the Glock or Beretta. 

I own six CZ rifles last time I counted. You get a lot for your money with CZ.


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## 9mmbhp

Here's a link to AmmoSeek 

What do you need ammo for - plinking, shooting games, concealed carry, home defense, hunting? 

Most of the major US ammo manufacturers (federal, remington, winchester, CCI) produce generic 9mm full-metal jacket (FMJ or 'ball') that is interchangeable. This is typical plinking and training/range stuff, shop for it based on price and convenience. If your gun & mags are brand new, try several boxes of several brands while breaking them in and see if any preferences show up. Unlikely but possible.

Buying bulk online (500 or 1000rds) can be cheap but watch the shipping. If shipping isn't included buying locally will likely be cheaper. Big box retailers like Cabelas/BassPro and Walmart can be a good sources, depends on the specific store. Local gun clubs and ranges are worth checking out. If your local range/club offers training classes or runs competitive shooting events, they may supply a lot of the ammo. They may also have discount arrangements with local re-loaders or re-manufacturers in exchange for used brass. 

Avoid military surplus or contract overrun deals unless someone you know&trust recommends it. 

For serious matters: self-defense ammunition ballistics tests

Tips: 

avoid shootouts 
get more mags 
practice, frequently 
after choosing a weapon, learn it
know how to field strip, clean and lubricate it
know how to detail strip it
know what small parts are likely to wear or break
look into spare parts kits

CZ75s are excellent pistols.


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## DamageInc

I'll most likely never own a handgun, but if the day comes, it will be a Makarov.


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## Kgp

Here's my latest, CMMG Banshee .45ACP. A real blast to shoot.
Ken


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## panda

i'll probably go with cheapest i can find until i get to the point where i can shoot tight groups, lol. but i will try a few boxes of 124grain during break in. the ones ive shot the most of are federal american eagle, probably stick with that?


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## Cashn

For just regular plinking which is 99% of what I do with my handguns I’ve found the Winchester white box’s from Walmart/academy to be just fine. Monarch will probably be the cheapest if you go to a big box store but I’d pay the extra couple of bucks for something else. Ive got a browning hi-power, S&W pro series 686 .357 and a browning buckmark .22. I love them all but the revolver will go to my grave with me.


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## AT5760

I second (or third) Winchester white box 9mm. Affordable while still having good QC. It’s not a defense round, but works fine for target practice and gaining weapon familiarity.


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## daveb

For practice, most anything will do. I like the stuff from Georgia Arms for when I'm leaving mine loaded. They are also my go to for hunting ammo.

http://www.georgia-arms.com/new-9mm-luger-115gr-speer-bonded-unicore-hollow-point-p-1/


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## Bert2368

For range practice, I too go with the cheapest/best sale price per case of USA MANUFACTURED brands which are brass cased, boxer primed (reloadable) ammo loaded in new cases.

I add Sellier & Bellot (Czech Republic) and Prvi Partizan (Serbia) to the "list of usual suspects" USA manufacturers, I have used plenty of both (the USA distributor is located near me, often has some of the best prices). 

GECO or RWS (Germany) are good as well, but rarely the cheapest around here.

I will not buy any ammo made by Armscor (Phillipines) or Magtech (Brazil).

I take Aguila (Mexico) on a product by product basis, they make some really good .22LR, and some not so good to awful ammo as well.

Same with PMC (South Korea) I do buy their cheaper 9mm 115gr FMJ loading, some other lines are not as good.


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## thebradleycrew

My advice for a first timer: practice the basics, starting with safety. Practice, practice, practice. Dry fire (safely). Learn trigger control. Focus on a perfect sight picture. Work on your stance and positioning. You can become a very proficient shooter with limited time on range (ie: using fewer bullets) and lots of time practicing via dry firing, working on draw/presentation, and trigger control.


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## Chicagohawkie

panda said:


> hawkie - i want an ak47
> 
> that was a cool video, that dude can shoot!
> my heart is set on the beretta. i've shot sig p226 and hk vp9, still i vibe better with m9. would like to try out a cz 75 at some point.



Try a .408 Lap..... best to be unseen.


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## panda

so while doing some browsing, i discovered walther q5 match steel frame and i am having a hard time with it because it seems like one hell of a gun and fighting to not choose it over the m9a3. it's quite a bit more expensive but probably so worth it. it's brand new model, any of you seen one?


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## Butaru

I like Berettas, I hated them in the beginning. After about 20 years of consistently shooting it, I love it even with a double/single action. The model you have is a step above the production 92FS. I just picked up the Langdon Tactical model and it is what the 92FS should have been from the beginning. Absolutely love to shoot it!

Like many have said (Bert2368 gave many good recommendations). Winchester white box has never done me wrong. PMC, Sellier & Bellot, and Remington have a couple primer striker problems, but usually never a problem.

*Spend your money on great self-defense ammo and practice with it. Go train with a great trainer.*

Modification of your handgun may have issues in court, but it's really up to you. I have my share, but typically not my carry gun.

Get a big safe (bigger than you think you'll need) and anchor it down. Then get a good rifle, magazines, and ammo for them all.

My favorites (price: low-high, varies): CZ, Glock, S&W, Sig, Nighthawk, Wilson...


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## Bodine

Bedside, Glock G17 with an attached surefire light
Every day carry, Walther PPS M2


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## panda

temporary insanity averted, sticking with the beretta  maybe the walther will be my second gun purchase, the sickness is real, already thinking of my 2nd before i even have a 1st. i also have $300 sitting in shopping cart full of ammo just waiting for me to click check out.


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## panda

thebradleycrew said:


> My advice for a first timer: practice the basics, starting with safety. Practice, practice, practice. Dry fire (safely). Learn trigger control. Focus on a perfect sight picture. Work on your stance and positioning. You can become a very proficient shooter with limited time on range (ie: using fewer bullets) and lots of time practicing via dry firing, working on draw/presentation, and trigger control.


i never even thought to practice via dry fire, thanks i will definitely do that.


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## Bodine

As said above, "Train with a great trainer",also take classes, get a cwp and a good conceal holster.


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## Bert2368

panda said:


> so while doing some browsing, i discovered walther q5 match steel frame and i am having a hard time with it because it seems like one hell of a gun and fighting to not choose it over the m9a3. it's quite a bit more expensive but probably so worth it. it's brand new model, any of you seen one?



If you have the budget, and you want to get into competition? Buy the M5 later. Me, I am holding out for the .45 version???

Starting with a purpose built target rig like the steel M5 would be like taking your driver's education practice in a Ferrari.


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## mille162

Loved my Glock 26 (9mm subcompact), it’s been my concealed carry since 1998. My only experience with Walther is the P22 and it’s very tempermental with subsonic ammo (I pretty much only shoot it suppressed). Thought Glock was the most consistent and easiest to carry/shoot until last year when I got my HK VP45 Tactical. Way nicer than the previous HK USP’s I’ve shot. Pricey but IMHO, worth the extra money for such a reliable daily carry/shooter.

Can also recommend ammoman.com, Have bought a lot from him in the past and rates and selection are usually the best.

Here’s my range bag emptied out from this weekend






If you’re on a budget and don’t like the new textured and 3D grips from Glock, an older used Gen I/II model can be found in good condition in the used case for around $300-$350 (paid $315 for this used 19 Gen I including a new spring). Barrel was excellent condition but obviously had to swap out for threaded Silencerco for suppressor use.





For anyone considering suppressors, Silencerco has. 45% off sale on threaded barrels this week, buy and out away for future use!


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## panda

Bert I would have loved to have learned to drive in a Ferrari haha.

Really dont like Glocks or polymer guns in general. 

Silencers are cool but I enjoy the gunfire sound too much to subdue any of that.


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## mille162

panda said:


> Silencers are cool but I enjoy the gunfire sound too much to subdue any of that.



Unless you’re shooting subsonic, there’s still plenty of noise, lol. For me, it’s another toy and gives me the option of shooting discreetly in my backyard. The Walther P22 with suppressor and subsonic ammo is quieter than most BB guns; you can shoot it in your basement with no ear protection!


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## changy915

I shoot a hi power 9mm, buckmark 22lr and tokarev. My hands are smaller so I find the hi power more comfortable to hold. I actually like shooting the buckmark more from a sporting perspective and only take out the hipower when I have guests.


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## boomchakabowwow

My absolute favorite piece to shoot is my .22 handgun. Inexpensive to shoot lots. I can really focus on my form and trigger pull. If I mess up, the error is instantly apparent. Tiny little groups of I get it right. 

Very little recoil to affect my performance. 

My lessons translates to my Sig226 and Glock21-SF. My shooting has vastly improved since I put the rimfire into rotation.


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## WAVERY

I dont know if sig Sauer still does the .22lr conversion kit for the P226 but I would highly recommend that. You can shoot thousands of rounds of .22lr to get a feel for everything then switch back to the caliber of your choosing. I love my 226 in 9mm, it has never even hiccuped!


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## boomchakabowwow

WAVERY said:


> I dont know if sig Sauer still does the .22lr conversion kit for the P226 but I would highly recommend that. You can shoot thousands of rounds of .22lr to get a feel for everything then switch back to the caliber of your choosing. I love my 226 in 9mm, it has never even hiccuped!


My 226 has had tens of thousands of rounds. It was my brothers service piece and he practiced a lot. When I got it I put a lot of rounds thru it. It is still a fine shooter. Same. Zero hiccups. It’s is worn looking tho.


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## panda

been eyeing cz tactical sport also.


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## bkultra

If you go CZ, Shadow 2... Hipster


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## panda

I'm for sure getting m9a3, plan on putting Wilson dark cherry grips on it.
As for down the road it's between Walther q5 steel frame and the cz tactical sport. Ideally I want both of those, lol. 
Shadow is too heavy. 

STI looks gaudy and way out my price range.


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## bkultra

panda said:


> STI looks gaudy and way out my price range.



??? (Sure it's $3000, but gaudy?)


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## charlesquik

My current range rotation

german made p226
ruger sr1911
ww2 ppk with refinished bluing and fake party leader grip (for the bling )

I envy you guys in the US with suppressor


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## larrybard

S&W J-frame (340SC) (.357 etc.)
S&W M&P 9
If you hadn't already decided what to get, I'd suggest first thinking carefully about its intended use (concealed carry? in home defense? etc.) and then trying a few different ones at a local firing range to determine which you're most comfortable with. But if you've already decided that the M9A3 is the right one for you, I strongly recommend spending a lot of time at the range getting perfectly comfortable with it. And whatever holster you've selected.


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## bahamaroot

Love me some Sig. Tried a few Blocks, I mean Glocks, but couldn't warm to them.
Have a couple Berettas, 96A1 and a PX4 9mm.


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## panda

bkultra said:


> ??? (Sure it's $3000, but gaudy?)
> View attachment 47385


you gonna let me shoot that next time im in chi right?

bahama, done any mods to the 96?
i dont remember if it was the px4 or apx i rented one time but i hated it. the balance was way off for me and trigger was not pleasant either.


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## panda

larrybard said:


> S&W J-frame (340SC) (.357 etc.)
> S&W M&P 9
> If you hadn't already decided what to get, I'd suggest first thinking carefully about its intended use (concealed carry? in home defense? etc.) and then trying a few different ones at a local firing range to determine which you're most comfortable with. But if you've already decided that the M9A3 is the right one for you, I strongly recommend spending a lot of time at the range getting perfectly comfortable with it. And whatever holster you've selected.


my only use for gun is to use at the range, no other purpose. yeah ive decided on the m9. once i feel ive gotten proficient with it, i will look for a second gun to spice things up, hehe.


guys, feel free to post pics of your gear!!


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## bahamaroot

panda said:


> you gonna let me shoot that next time im in chi right?
> 
> bahama, done any mods to the 96?
> i dont remember if it was the px4 or apx i rented one time but i hated it. the balance was way off for me and trigger was not pleasant either.


I put a skeletonized hammer on it and a D spring, only mods. I would say that you rented the APX, the PX4 has good balance and a pretty decent trigger.

PX4


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## panda

that ruger looks really interesting.
i might have to add sr1911 to my list! but in 9mm. this one https://ruger.com/products/sr1911Target/specSheets/6759.html

it appears i have more pondering to do. i didnt realize you could get 1911s chambered in 9mm. there is also the springfield 1911 range officer elite operator i should consider.


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## bkultra

panda said:


> you gonna let me shoot that next time im in chi right?



That one is not mine, it's the DVC Carry. I know of one for sale and I'm thinking of picking it up, but even @ $2400 it makes for an expensive EDC.


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## panda

I hear ya on that. Kinda want the Wilson edc x9, same price range.


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## panda

I should.probabaly get a small safe. Should I just pick one up locally?


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## Bert2368

panda said:


> I should.probabaly get a small safe. Should I just pick one up locally?



You should carefully consider what you keep a gun in...

And then, whatever it is, bolt it down securely in a REALLY WELL HIDDEN place. "Security through obscurity".


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## Ryndunk

A safe is a good investment anyway. Get one that can't be carried away! Then bolt it down anyway. Useful for more than just guns. Keep passports, car titles, birth certificates, credit cards not in use, emergency cash, wifes jewelry, etc. A good one will cost you less than half the knives on BST.


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## panda

Ughh. Boy do priorities change fast. Instead of getting my unicorn knife or nice wheels for my car, I've decided I want an over priced firearm. The sickness is real. 
Wilson combat edc x9 with the burgundy grips. It just looks super ergonomic, I especially like the cross hatching on front of the handle.


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## Barmoley

I think we lost Panda.

Don't buy something like Wilson as your first pistol. You wouldn't suggest a new knife user to get a multi thousand dollar unicorn, would you? Besides Les Baer better


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## panda

obviously not getting that right off the bat, lol. gonna be a bit to save up that much. that being said, i've deviated from my original plan of the m9a3 and now i think i'm going with the cz sp-01 shadow line from cz custom shop.


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## Butaru

The shadow is a nice gun. The SP-01 is quite hefty (if you run out of bullets you could use it as a club). Shoots really nice and never had any problems with mine. I like the way it’s assembly is aligned slide/frame. 

If you can, try shooting each before you purchase. It maybe impossible with your selections now. I’ve only known one person who owned all of your choices.


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## panda

I've handled the compact p-01, just wanted a longer barrel. Will check out a base model sp-01 in person first before I get the tricked out version.


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## Barmoley

Also check out kahr T9 if you have a chance. Very nice double action trigger and very comfortable in the hand.

CZs are great too, especially the custom shop ones, but somewhat expensive.

There is also sig 210 target, the American made version if you are looking for a range toy with extreme accuracy.


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## Kgp

Not seeing much love here for FNH and Kimber. Most of what I have is .45's but my Kimbers have all been flawless. Wouldn't hesitate getting one in a 9mm in a 1911 frame.

For a .22 plinker, Ruger Mk IV target is very cool and super accurate.

Ken


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## panda

Barmoley said:


> Also check out kahr T9 if you have a chance. Very nice double action trigger and very comfortable in the hand.
> 
> CZs are great too, especially the custom shop ones, but somewhat expensive.
> 
> There is also sig 210 target, the American made version if you are looking for a range toy with extreme accuracy.


That sig looks awesome!! I like that it's single action only and 3.5lb trigger sounds perfect. Unfortunately is a bit more than I want to spend cause that will leave me no room for ammo, lol.


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## panda

Kgp said:


> Not seeing much love here for FNH and Kimber. Most of what I have is .45's but my Kimbers have all been flawless. Wouldn't hesitate getting one in a 9mm in a 1911 frame.
> 
> For a .22 plinker, Ruger Mk IV target is very cool and super accurate.
> 
> Ken


I wouldn't mind checking out the FN five seven


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## Kgp

I’ve got an FS9. Nice shooter for the money. Usually $500 or less.

You mentioned that you didn’t like the HK VP9. Any reason? They make good guns and mine is very soft shooting and accurate. Cofigurable grips are nice.

If you want something a little different, check out the Grand Power Stribog. Just got one but haven’t shot it yet. Their regular handguns are very highly regarded.

Ken


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## panda

Kgp said:


> I’ve got an FS9. Nice shooter for the money. Usually $500 or less.
> 
> You mentioned that you didn’t like the HK VP9. Any reason? They make good guns and mine is very soft shooting and accurate. Cofigurable grips are nice.
> 
> If you want something a little different, check out the Grand Power Stribog. Just got one but haven’t shot it yet. Their regular handguns are very highly regarded.
> 
> Ken


I'm just not a fan of any polymer frames, it was indeed very accurate.


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## bahamaroot

If I could only own one pistol I can't recommend Sig P229 enough. Just a great feeling weapon with excellent accuracy and reliability. There is a reason most federal and many state officers carry it. It is all performance and no bling though.


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## WAVERY

panda said:


> I wouldn't mind checking out the FN five seven


Gimmick gun.


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## panda

watched a few videos on the sig p210, wow it's so smooth! but it doesnt appear to be in stock anywhere.  guess i'll just have to try my luck on gunbroker


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## Keith Sinclair

I have had a Ruger GP100 357 Magnum many years. My shooting buddy had a loader we would get brass at a indoor shooting range in Waikiki mainly used by Japanese tourists. We would load bullets on my kitchen table. We used to shoot at Koko Head Crater range. My friend had a long barrel 44 magnum handgun. 

If I were to get another handgun it would be a clip feed smaller and lighter gun. Even a 22 caliper good for target shooting & ammo less expensive. You can get a 22 handgun and rifle.


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## Bert2368

panda said:


> I wouldn't mind checking out the FN five seven



IVAN CHESNOKOV TO THE RESCUE!

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MAIN POINT OF SELLING BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL IS EXTREME PRICE OF WEAPON AND CARTRIDGE.

BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON OF MAN WHO WEARS EXPENSIVE ITALIAN FASCIST SUIT OF HAND SEWING, DRIVE HUGE NAZI MERCEDES OF A.M.G. SHOP, SAIL ON MASSIVE YACHT TO GREEK ISLANDS. I THINK YOU GET PICTURE. BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS WEAPON THAT SAYS IS NO SUCH THING AS CONCERN OF MONEY.

FOR MAN WITHOUT EXPENSIVE SUIT, BIG BLACK MERCEDES, AND MASSIVE YACHT, BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN IS FOR PRETENDING TO BE RICH LIKE BLACK GANGSTER OF AMERICAN CITY WITH GOLD CHAINS OF LOW QUALITY AND JEWLS OF COLORED GLASS. WHEN YOU EXPLAIN USE OF BELGIAN FIVE SEVEN PISTOL IS ONLY FOR SHOOT MAN WITH BULLET VEST WITH CARTRIDGE ILLEGAL TO CIVILIAN. THIS MAN HAS NUCLEAR RAGE WHOS IDENTITY OF THIS MAN IS SPENT IN PRETEND PSTOL SHOWS HE IS RICH. IS VERY AMUSE.

FOR REST OF WORLD THERE IS 9 MILIMETERS OF LUGER WHICH IS SAME WOUND FOR LESS COST.

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https://m1-garand-rifle.com/ivan-chesnokov.php

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5.7x28mm: Ingenious way to make a centerfire .22 Magnum and then charge quadruple price for the same ballistics. Awesome chambering for a police weapon…if you’re the park ranger in charge of the chipmunk exhibit at the zoo, and you want to make sure you can take one down if it turns rabid on you.

https://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/sacred-cows-the-second-serving/

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There are a couple of both five seven pistols and PS90 (semi auto, 16" barrel version of the PDW) in the gun room.

Get a five seven if you're a collector and interested. As noted, the ammunition which gives it the designed for utility is not available to ordinary people. The original practice ammo which STILL was a bit too snappy for BATF to be happy isn't illegal to own, just ridiculously expensive.

If you come across an older PS90 with the "original" trigger pack, you might consider buying that, especially if youre an SG-1 fan.


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## MrHiggins

IVAN CHESNOKOV is my new hero. I don't know the first thing about guns, but I know a good rant when I read one. Za vashe zdarovje, Ivan!


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## Bert2368

WHY YOU WANT RAIL FOR KALASHNIKOV? IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AS PROCURED FROM IZHEVSK MECHANICAL WORKS? YOU THINK NEEDS IMPROVEMENT? THEN MAYBE YOU FIND JOB WITH ARMY OF RUSSIA! YOU HAVE DRINKS WITH MIKHAIL KALASHNIKOV, TRADE STORY OF MANY WEAPONS DESIGNED AND DETAILS OF SCHOOL FOR ENGINEERING! OR MAYBE YOU NOT DO THIS.

PROBABLY IS BECAUSE YOU NEVER DESIGN WEAPON IN WHOLE LIFE. YOU LOOK AT FINE RUSSIAN RIFLE, THINK IT NEED CRAZY S**T STICK ON ALL SIDES OF WEAPON. YOU HAVE DISEASE OF AMERICAN CAPITALIST, CHANGE THING THAT IS FINE FOR NO REASON EXCEPT TO LOOK DIFFERENT FROM COMRADE. 

YOU PUT CHEAP FLASHLIGHT OF CHINESE SLAVE FACTORY ON ONE SIDE, YOU PUT BAD SCOPE OF AMERICAN MIDDLE WEST ON OTHER SIDE, YOU PUT FRONT PISTOL GRIP ON BOTTOM SO YOU ARE LIKE AMERICAN MOVIE GUY JOHN RAMBO.MAYBE YOU PUT SEX DILDO ON TOP TO F**K YOURSELF IN A**HOLE FOR MAKING SHAMEFUL TRAVESTY OF RIFLE OF MIKHAIL KALASHNIKOV, NO? 

RIFLE IS FINE. YOU F**K IT, IT ONLY GET HEAVY AND YOU STILL NO HIT LARGEST SIDE OF BARN. GO TO FIRING RANGE, PRACTICE WITH MANY MAGAZINE OF CARTRIDGE. THEN YOU NOT NEED DUMB S**T PUT ON SIDE OF RIFLE.


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## HRC_64

OMG this is CLASSIC...



Bert2368 said:


> ...YOU PUT CHEAP FLASHLIGHT OF CHINESE SLAVE FACTORY ON ONE SIDE, YOU PUT BAD SCOPE OF AMERICAN MIDDLE WEST ON OTHER SIDE, YOU PUT FRONT PISTOL GRIP ON BOTTOM SO YOU ARE LIKE AMERICAN MOVIE GUY JOHN RAMBO.MAYBE YOU PUT SEX DILDO ON TOP TO F**K YOURSELF IN A**HOLE FOR MAKING SHAMEFUL TRAVESTY OF RIFLE OF MIKHAIL KALASHNIKOV, NO?
> 
> RIFLE IS FINE. YOU F**K IT, IT ONLY GET HEAVY AND YOU STILL NO HIT LARGEST SIDE OF BARN...


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## panda

LMAO


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## Grunt173

Shooting and reloading is my next biggest hobby and I have been doing it about 50 or so years.I have Glocks and Smith and Wesson M&P's,had Sigs,don't like them,had Springfields,don't like them either. Glocks,I have them but don't really care for them either.I favor the M&P's and a safe bet for a new guy would be an M&P 9MM with a safety. I know what all the glock guys are going to say or the cool kids in town but after seeing two firearm instructors almost shooting their leg off drawing a glock,I can see the virtues of a thumb safety.9mm bullets for self defense have come a long way and practice ammo for the 9mm is a lot cheaper then say a 40 cal. round.If you don't reload,I'd say get the 9. Better still would be a revolver,easy to clean and safer to handle.I have a S&W Snubby that shoots 38 specials.It's a lot of fun to shoot and holds some good self defence 38 rounds.


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## Grunt173

Barmoley said:


> I think we lost Panda.
> 
> Don't buy something like Wilson as your first pistol. You wouldn't suggest a new knife user to get a multi thousand dollar unicorn, would you? Besides Les Baer better


This.......I had the 1-1/2" guaranteed model Les Baer 1911 , 45 acp and it did it too.1-1/2" 10 shot groups from a ransome rest at 50 yards. Sold it when I gave up competition and didn't loose a dime.Sold it to a guy that went on to win at Camp Perry with it.


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## panda

The reason I want a target gun is because that's all I will be using it for. I don't care about home defense, lol. Plus there's nothing worse than lining the sights up on the target and bullet ends up way off, hella frustrating. 

Sig p210 just checks off every box for me, I feel like I would be fixated on it if I go with anything else.. I do want the cz shadow also though, haha. I have definitely gone off the deep end into this hobby and I haven't even gotten the first purchase out of the way yet!!


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## Kgp

Sig also makes a Max Michel Target model. 1911 frame, either 9mm or. 45. I have the. 45 and it's a sweet gun. Max Michel is a top ranked competitive shooter who designed the gun. Trigger, hammer, mag well, etc.

Ken


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## panda

you know i was looking at that one also, looks good. i dunno if this is abnormal or not but i actually shoot 1911 better than i do a beretta.


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## Barmoley

That is not abnormal. Most people shoot a 1911 better than a Beretta. I have no data to support my claim so don't stone me. Having said that, training as always is more important than the tool. People tend to want to buy equipment that will make them better, instead of investing in training this is after all what this forum is all about. In spirit of that I vote to go for the gun you want instead of settling  if you've decided to go 9mm go for target cz or sig 210, my vote. If you want 1911 go for 45.


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## panda

it's really just down to 2 choices for me at this point like you said target cz or sig 210. 
i really want to stick with 9mm because 45 ammo prices are not pocket friendly, i want to shoot a lot of rounds! ive shot beretta 10x more than i have shot 1911, and i was more accurate with the 1911 (maybe because the skinnier grips?). i was more comfortable with the beretta though so i figured with training it would have been the better choice plus the a3 variant has the 1911 style grips.
if i were going strictly for looks, the sig 1911 stainless super target is stunning!!

funny you mention that about investing in the tool more than the actual use of it in reference to knives. i suspect many on this forum with fancy knives have truly awful knife skills, lol.


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## Grunt173

Even though we shot our 1911's for comp which were mostly made up of Colt Gold Cups,Baers and even big name customs,all of us had target 22 pistols as well and shot them more then anything for practice.Why?,even though we reloaded all our brass,it gets to the point it is such a pain to bend over and pick up all the brass that was ejected in between the shooting sessions and sorting them to their rightful owners.The 22's just got swept up and tossed and the fun went on.So a nice 22 target pistol makes good sense.Get the pistol of your dreams but I'll leave you with this thought.The man who took the crown away in our big competition at one of our local clubs,did so with an old stock WWll 1911 that was as loose as a goose and rattled till the cows came home.


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## Kgp

You're absolutely correct. Practicing with a .22 is the best idea if you are shooting hundreds of rounds. The Ruger Mk IV is the perfect gun for this. Has the weight of a full size, cleaning is a snap with one button take down, and it is a good buy. 

Another alternative is a .22 conversion kit for a 1911 frame, which can be had for a couple hundred.

Ken


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## Grunt173

Kgp said:


> You're absolutely correct. Practicing with a .22 is the best idea if you are shooting hundreds of rounds. The Ruger Mk IV is the perfect gun for this. Has the weight of a full size, cleaning is a snap with one button take down, and it is a good buy.
> 
> Another alternative is a .22 conversion kit for a 1911 frame, which can be had for a couple hundred.
> 
> Ken


Those conversion kits are expensive and a waste of money because they are the least accurate.I knew many who tried them and all of them were sorry they tried them.The Ruger is a good suggestion though and I have the RugerMKIII Target,a little bit of a pain to re assemble but the MK IV is the answer to that. I also have the Browning Buckmark Target and I actually like that more.It feel more like a 1911 in my hands then the Ruger,although it looks noting like a 1911,just such a good balance and much easier to disassemble and assemble. Usually anybody who takes target shooting seriously always ends up with a 22 rimfire pistol to add to their case with their big gun.And a serious big gun shooter need to lean to reload,just like a knife man needs to know how to sharpen.


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## Nikabrik

Ruger has the Mark IV 22/45, which matches the 1911 feel a bit more than their other models.

We used them in my basic pistol marksmanship class, and I really enjoyed shooting them.

I concur that a .22LR is a good place to start.


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## Grunt173

Nikabrik said:


> Ruger had the Mark IV 22/45, which matches the 1911 feel a bit more than their other models.
> 
> We used them in my basic pistol marksmanship class, and I really enjoyed shooting them.
> 
> I concur that a .22LR is a good place to start.


I forgot all about the Ruger 22/45. I vaguely recall somebody having one but I never shot it for fear I might like it and end up with more stuff to carry to the indoor range.


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## Barmoley

Nelson conversion 22 is excellent, but expensive. More expensive than regular versions of Ruger MK IV and you don't get a second pistol, but you stay with the same controls and similar feel.


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## panda

ive shot a mark iv and it misfired/jammed so often it soured the whole experience.


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## Grunt173

panda said:


> ive shot a mark iv and it misfired/jammed so often it soured the whole experience.


Got to clean them once in a while. When mine started to jam,I knew it was time to clean it.Some bullets just have so much wax on them that it can really gum things up pretty fast.


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## panda

ugh, this!! https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/716006995/
i cant find it available anywhere, are there other alternatives like this?


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## Kgp

It's no longer in production. Try Armslist, Gunbroker, etc.

Ken


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## Barmoley

STI stopped making most 1911s, you might be able to find used or some leftover stock somewhere. Check out Dan Wesson PM9.


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## Grunt173

panda said:


> ugh, this!! https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/716006995/
> i cant find it available anywhere, are there other alternatives like this?


That's a good one by a great company.To bad. Beware of Armslist. Something I read about them in a very negative way but for the life of me,I can't remember what it was,security or something of that nature.


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## panda

there is one on gunbroker but i wont have the funds by the time the auction ends, hopefully it doesnt sell and he relists it lol

dan wesson pm-9 looks to be a good alternative. anyone try these before?


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## Grunt173

Here's a 9mm for ya Panda with a guarantee of 1-1/2" group accuracy like the Primer II that I used to have. 
https://www.lesbaer.com/PPCOpen.html
Getting harder and harder to pick now ha?


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## panda

tell me about it!! this is so much worse than picking a knife. im also considering the dan wess specialist in stainless


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## Kgp

Take a look at the Hudson H9. I haven’t shot one, but my local dealer has and he was very impressed. 

I’ve got two Kimber target grades in .45 but they are now available in 9mm. Love my Kimber 1911’s!

Ken


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## Barmoley

The huge problem with Les Baer that can't really be easily fixed is that you can't blame the gun when you suck....do you honestly want to be in that situation?

All the guns you are looking at CZ, sig 210, sti, Dan Wesson, Les Baer are more mechanically accurate than 99% of the shooters, so you won't make a mistake either way. All of them should be relaible if you take care of them. Buy the one that speaks to you, is comfortable in your hands and you just like. If you practice a lot, in contrast to knives, the cost of the gun is a tiny amount compared to the cost of ammo and range time.


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## Grunt173

"The huge problem with Les Baer that can't really be easily fixed is that you can't blame the gun when you suck....do you honestly want to be in that situation?"

Why do you think I sold mine? lol I ended up selling it to a friend of mine who shot for the Marine Corp. at Camp Peery. He was waaaaay better then anyone I shot with.He shot that and his custom Nastoff 1911 at Perry.


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## panda

i have enough self esteem to deal with embarrassment of not being a very good shot. i just want a slick gun is all. les baer out of price range at the moment, maybe down the road. 

so far the sti trojan and specialist stainless are really speaking to me.


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## Grunt173

panda said:


> i have enough self esteem to deal with embarrassment of not being a very good shot. i just want a slick gun is all. les baer out of price range at the moment, maybe down the road.
> 
> so far the sti trojan and specialist stainless are really speaking to me.


If I had those two choices,I wouldn't even give it much thought.It would be the STI.That probably isn't any help though.Think you will be able to sleep tonight?


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## Barmoley

Doesn’t specialist come with a rail? What do you need a rail for, cheese grating maybe...


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## panda

Barmoley said:


> Doesn’t specialist come with a rail? What do you need a rail for, cheese grating maybe...


i noticed that too and started looking at the valor instead, lol.


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## panda

Grunt173 said:


> If I had those two choices,I wouldn't even give it much thought.It would be the STI.That probably isn't any help though.Think you will be able to sleep tonight?


def not getting any sleep, if i do i'll prolly be dreaming the same dilemma


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## Bert2368

Are you CERTAIN that I couldn't interest you in an (expensive) .45ACP all steel pistol?


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## panda

Thats pretty cool, but holy sticker shock.


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## Grunt173

You have it lucky Panda.When I was looking for a custom 1911 back in my day,there were a lot more custom gun makers to choose from,now there are fewer.I ended up going full circle and went back to my Series 70 Colt Gold Cup. The Colt 1911's represented the REAL 1911 to me and still do.


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## panda

i dont want a custom, just a higher end production.
but apparently i eventually need to get a les baer and an ed brown, oh the struggles..

grunt, that's like starting with old school japanese knife, trying all the custom ones, and then going back to the original. i can totally understand that as i am like that as well.


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## Barmoley

Panda, you will fry your brain going the way you are. You need to step back and breath. Decide what kind of range shooting you want to do, action, precision, etc Some of the games and competitions are a lot of fun, but not everyone wants to do that. If you do, the format of the game will guide you to the right gun. Some of these favor high capacity magazines, some extreme precision, etc.

Les Baer even without a guarantee is extremely accurate ~3" at 50 yards, twice as bad as the guarantee one which is 1.5" at 50, but let's be serious.
Sig P210 will give you similar results to Les Baer ~3 at 50 yards could be better could be worse, but unless you use a ramson rest or some other mechanical contraption you will never know. Shooting with such accuracy hand holding is a talent that very few possess and train enough to achieve.
The rest of the guns will give you ~2" at 25 or ~4 @ 50, which is still better than 99% of the shooters.

If you want to play action games you need something like a CZ or G34 (I know, I know plastic gun and all) these dominate in action games.

Don't go nuts with the first gun, you don't really know what you will like until you shoot a lot. Get a nice, reasonably priced CZ if plastic is out, get 5000 - 10000 of plinking ammo, after you are done with it you will know what you want.....more or less


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## panda

kind of shooting i'll be doing will just be regular target practice flinging lead down range at paper targets. likely once a week. 
i found a sti trojan in like new condition at a great price (same i was originally going to spend before i went into the deep end of the pool). problem solved. yay!! the seller told me it likes heavier bullets so will look at bulk 124 and 147. it has an extreme engineering trigger job and says the pull is at 4.5 pounds but can be adjusted to however i like. the actual pull weight doesnt really matter to me, its the creep and travel that messes me up but seller said that is non issue with this one.

what do you guys recommend for cleaning? is there an aerosol spray one i could use? i read somewhere people are using motor oil?


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## Barmoley

Great, congrats. You got a really good gun. I gave STI Trojan to my brother for his bday, it is 45, but still. Great gun and for the money at the time I couldn't do any better. 1911s like to run wet, so any quality cleaning solution will work. You could use motor oil for lubing I guess too, but you would still need a cleaner of some sort. Don't use brake cleaner, that crap is nasty.


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## Grunt173

I sent you a PM Panda.
I have used break cleaner for cleaning and sure enough,that is nasty stuff. Just get a bottle of good ol Hoppys Number 9 solvent,some good gun oil and maybe some slick 50 and a good clean rod ( GOOD CLEANING ROD),bronze brush,jag and patches.No stainless steel brushes.I hate them things.You can't use to much oil on a 1911.


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## Bert2368

The first center fire semi auto pistol I ever used was a 1911, which I still have. 











It does not have great ergonomics for my wide, short fingered farmer hands, but I'm keeping it.

A US military surplus 1911 my dad left me, he modified the sights, installed a trigger shoe, carved himself a new set of thumb rest grips (he had been apprentice to a gunsmith as a teen). Dad used it to shoot matches at the USN reserve armory (WWII and Korea vet) until job and kids wiped out his spare time.

It is a 1911, not 1911 A1 - Made in 1913, one of the first batch Colt shipped to the US Navy. Note the lack of relief cut in frame for trigger finger.

It certainly went back to the arsenal at least once in the time US Gov't. owned it, the grip safety was changed to the post WWI A1 style and the slide is not the type this frame would have left Colt's at New Haven with in 1913. 

Wish I knew where this pistol had gone during the first 50 years or so of its existence, before the DCM sold it to dad for the princely sum of $27 + shipping.

DCM sold dad a re arsenaled 1903 Springfield too, for about $20. The '03 has an Elmer Keith WWII inspector's cartouche from Ogden UT on the stock.

A couple of old milsurps, not much valued after the Korean war. Cheap guns for a college student.


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## Grunt173

Bert2368 said:


> The first center fire semi auto pistol I ever used was a 1911, which I still have.
> 
> View attachment 47829
> 
> View attachment 47830
> 
> 
> It does not have great ergonomics for my wide, short fingered farmer hands, but I'm keeping it.
> 
> A US military surplus 1911 my dad left me, he modified the sights, installed a trigger shoe, carved himself a new set of thumb rest grips (he had been apprentice to a gunsmith as a teen). Dad used it to shoot matches at the USN reserve armory (WWII and Korea vet) until job and kids wiped out his spare time.
> 
> It is a 1911, not 1911 A1 - Made in 1913, one of the first batch Colt shipped to the US Navy. Note the lack of relief cut in frame for trigger finger.
> 
> It certainly went back to the arsenal at least once in the time US Gov't. owned it, the grip safety was changed to the post WWI A1 style and the slide is not the type this frame would have left Colt's at New Haven with in 1913.
> 
> Wish I knew where this pistol had gone during the first 50 years or so of its existence, before the DCM sold it to dad for the princely sum of $27 + shipping.
> 
> DCM sold dad a re arsenaled 1903 Springfield too, for about $20. The '03 has an Elmer Keith WWII inspector's cartouche from Ogden UT on the stock.
> 
> A couple of old milsurps, not much valued after the Korean war. Cheap guns for a college student.


I see you did some work to it.I kept my 1943 Colt stock.


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## Bert2368

Grunt173 said:


> I see you did some work to it.I kept my 1943 Colt stock.



No, all I've done is clean it and shoot it.

Dad did the modifications sometime between 1954 and 1960 (I was born in 1960, cutting down dad's shootin' n tinkerin' time). Back then they weren't historic, just old!

Thank God he ran out of spare time before sporterizing the '03. He wouldn't have done an ugly "bubba" job, but still-


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## Kgp

I really like Break Free CLP. 

Ken


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## bkultra

Bore Tech eliminator and C4 (for neglected gun carbon cleaning) are by far the best I've used... And I've used them all.

Most only need the eliminator. Also almost no odor so you can clean in your living room.


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## panda

what about this? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ERKCIA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Grunt173

panda said:


> what about this? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ERKCIA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


That's what I use in my muzzle loader for cleaning black powder.You can use that for cleaning the 1911 but I wouldn't.
As Kgp said,Break Free is good. You can find that in any gun store.


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## Barmoley

bkultra said:


> Bore Tech eliminator and C4 (for neglected gun carbon cleaning) are by far the best I've used... And I've used them all.
> 
> Most only need the eliminator. Also almost no odor so you can clean in your living room.



That is very good stuff, what I use too. Supposed to be none toxic as well.


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## panda

lets get the accessories down also:
earplugs
earmuffs
eye protection (i have some cheapies from the local range but i want yellow lenses)
cleaning solution/lube
cleaning kit
magazine loader
range bag
paper targets

anything i'm missing?


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## Bert2368

(Tried to add a link, this turned into a double post- Could a moderator please delete this version? Thanks!)


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## bkultra

Agree, pay for some instruction. CCW (16 hours in IL, not sure about FL) is a great start and pretty cheap... Even if you never plan to carry.


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## HRC_64

what toolkits/ brands do you recommend for drivers and bits?


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## Bert2368

panda said:


> anything i'm missing?



An instructor?

If you ask to borrow tools frm the management at a range, they're not likely to loan them out- They have lost too many tools that way already. 

So!

Very basic tools to bring to the range, allen/torx/mini & regular screw drivers for the inevitable loose grip/sight/compensator/& etc. screws or sight adjustments. Possibly add a small soft hammer and a brass punch to these.

If you want to be ready for doing ANYTHING in this line, and doing it right? Get something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C63M7O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

(Using "close enough to right size" drivers on gun screws BUGGERS the heads, it is similar in chumpitude to, say, cutting something with a good knife on top of a cinder block because you were in a hurry- Guaranteed to F*** it up. Get a broad set of gunsmithing bits BEFORE you need them)

And ALWAYS bring!

A HARDWOOD DOWEL, NARROWER THAN BORE AND LONG ENOUGH TO POP A STUCK CASE OUT OF THE CHAMBER FROM MUZZLE. I don't go to the range or my deer stand without something that can clear a stuck case or snow/mud/whatever out of the bore. Sometimes a bore snake just won't cut it.


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## bkultra

For precision tools I like Wiha or Wera, but a lot of great choices.


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## panda

ive always been a self taught kind of person with my hobbies, not about to change that up now, hehe. so besides a wooden dowel (a link please to one on amazon maybe?) what other must haves?


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## Bert2368

Call a wood workers store or a home improvement store for cheap hRdwood dowels in your neighborhood? What I did.

A nylon or PTFE rod works well too, could be better against hammering or other hard knocks. But more expensive when someone "borrows" it permanently. I have a brass rod for .22/ .223, dowels that thin are not very strong. Brass rod came from "discount metals".


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## Grunt173

This is what I lubed my 1911 rails with when I shot it a lot.So did many others in our club.It was pretty darn popular back then and a custom 1911 builder ( Nastoff,who lived by me), highly recommended it on his $4000 plus 1911's. You can buy it in most auto parts stores too but here is Brownell's site.
https://www.brownells.com/gun-clean...iplate-sku311003010-6524-15704.aspx?rrec=true


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## Bert2368

If you need lubrication in a dusty/sandy environment, this stuff is a pretty good "dry" lube.

If you end up doing two gun or three gun competition in a sandy area, this stuff is worth having. Good for pocket knife bearings too, nice slick open & close yet the lint and dirt don't stick in the works.

You HAVE to put it on thin and then let it dry for a day before it will behave as designed, lubed but not having dust and grit stick to your gun as they will to an oily gun- Fresh, it's just another wet lube.














I'm sure it causes cancer in California.


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## Cashn

This a minor thing but as far as a range bag goes I like using an old laptop backpack. Padded, doesn’t pull any attention, enough room for 1-3 guns and holds everything I need for a range day. Granted if I bring all 3 it’s stuffed to the brim just b/c of ammo.


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## Grunt173

Cashn said:


> This a minor thing but as far as a range bag goes I like using an old laptop backpack. Padded, doesn’t pull any attention, enough room for 1-3 guns and holds everything I need for a range day. Granted if I bring all 3 it’s stuffed to the brim just b/c of ammo.


In this day and age,that isn't a bad idea.


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## panda

So, I sold one of my knives to put towards this new hobby, rabbit hole has won.

I need to start saving for my second gun even though I haven't even received my first one yet.. eyeing a les baer premier ii. They're pretty ugly but all the reports of how awesome they shoot is too good to ignore. I like that they're deemed the 'workhorse' of the gun world.


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## Grunt173

panda said:


> So, I sold one of my knives to put towards this new hobby, rabbit hole has won.
> 
> I need to start saving for my second gun even though I haven't even received my first one yet.. eyeing a les baer premier ii. They're pretty ugly but all the reports of how awesome they shoot is too good to ignore. I like that they're deemed the 'workhorse' of the gun world.


Well,Les can sure help you out with a premier II. When I bought mine,he had many options for that particular pistol so you can order anyway you wanted it.They are built really tight though and it does take a bit of grip and strength to pull the slide back,but then,that could be why they shoot so well.He has other options besides the Primere II but I believe it was the flagship of his offerings back then.The man is good,there is no question about that.


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## Barmoley

Grunt173 said:


> Well,Les can sure help you out with a premier II. When I bought mine,he had many options for that particular pistol so you can order anyway you wanted it.They are built really tight though and it does take a bit of grip and strength to pull the slide back,but then,that could be why they shoot so well.He has other options besides the Primere II but I believe it was the flagship of his offerings back then.The man is good,there is no question about that.



They are super tight when new. So much so that you might think it is broken. The recommendation is to shoot at least 1000 rounds before first cleaning 2000 is better. Then they are still tight, but not hard to pull the slide. Funny thing is that you'd think that being so tight they would be unreliable, but they are very reliable, more so than many other 1911 that are not as tight, very odd. Also take a look at custom carry.

Of course if you think Les Baer is ugly, you should not be allowed to buy one and should be flogged instead.

With all that don't let the craziness take you shoot your trojan for a bit, it is an excellent gun.


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## Grunt173

Barmoley said:


> They are super tight when new. So much so that you might think it is broken. The recommendation is to shoot at least 1000 rounds before first cleaning 2000 is better. Then they are still tight, but not hard to pull the slide. Funny thing is that you'd think that being so tight they would be unreliable, but they are very reliable, more so than many other 1911 that are not as tight, very odd. Also take a look at custom carry.
> 
> Of course if you think Les Baer is ugly, you should not be allowed to buy one and should be flogged instead.
> 
> With all that don't let the craziness take you shoot your trojan for a bit, it is an excellent gun.


Lol,glad you called him on the ugly part.I was trying to get the boys together for a little trip to Florida.
Yep,even with reduced loads, ( think 3.5 Bullseye ),it functioned flawlessly.It does loosen up some but it sure takes a good bit of time getting there.After the Baer,when I pulled the slide back on my Gold Cup,I thought it was broke.lol


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Any one have a recommendation for a 22 caliber target hand gun? Looking for user friendly easy to break down & clean. 

I learned to shoot when I was a kid with a 22 rifle no scope just sites. Shooting squirrels in the pecan trees. Nailed some rabbits too.

When came to Hawaii at 19 worked charter boats with retired HPD officer. His son was HPD we went to Koko Head Crater to shoot with their service side arms. I out scored both of them. Now I need glasses to see down field wonder if I can still hit targets. Also what are good 22 ammo for paper targets?


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## Grunt173

Keith Sinclair said:


> Any one have a recommendation for a 22 caliber target hand gun? Looking for user friendly easy to break down & clean.
> 
> I learned to shoot when I was a kid with a 22 rifle no scope just sites. Shooting squirrels in the pecan trees. Nailed some rabbits too.
> 
> When came to Hawaii at 19 worked charter boats with retired HPD officer. His son was HPD we went to Koko Head Crater to shoot with their service side arms. I out scored both of them. Now I need glasses to see down field wonder if I can still hit targets. Also what are good 22 ammo for paper targets?


I have this one and I love it but it is discontinued now but Browning seems to have some sweet offerings.Other then that,maybe think about a Ruger MK IV.
https://www.browning.com/products/f...istols/discontinued/buck-mark-55-field-2.html
https://ruger.com/products/markIVTarget/models.html


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## Bert2368

Second the suggestion on one of the .22 Ruger Mk.(whichever) target pistol variants. TONS of variants and lots of aftermarket goodies if you want to customize one to your taste.

I shot the Gov't. Mk. I in ROTC, then bought a bull barreled Mk. II target as soon as I was 21. 

I like shooting the older Ruger variants. However, take down on newer Rugers IS easier than the old ones with the of back of grip take down lever/hammer spring assembly was. Broke fingernails on that when I couldn't find a paperclip, then swore while trying to get the thing properly situated on re-assembly.

Inherited dad's Hi Standard Olympic Match .22 and foolishly sold the Mark II.

The 1950s Hi Standard is nice but even finding a working aftermarket magazine which functions reliably it is a trial, I dread the day I need other parts. Take down for cleaning is easy, push one button on the front of frame and the barrel & slide come right off.


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## panda

I should be getting it sometime next week.


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## PC315

I've really enjoyed shooting Freedom ammo, made in USA, clean firing and reasonable prices. They frequently have sales as well.

https://www.freedommunitions.com


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## Keith Sinclair

Thanks looking at the Ruger. Like the easy take down on newer models.


----------



## Grunt173

Take down on the older Ruger Marks was really a big pain until I finally figured it out and then after only a few tries doing it right,I found it to be pretty easy.Now it doesn't take much thought but up until it becomes second nature it will make you say a very bad word.


----------



## ewebb10

Check out the hammer bushing from tandemcross. It makes the take down a lot easier. 

https://www.tandemkross.com/Steel-Hammer-Bushing-for-Mark-III-and-2245-Pistols_p_9.html


----------



## ewebb10

Since we are talking Rugers. Here's my plinker.


----------



## Kgp

ewebb10 said:


> Since we are talking Rugers. Here's my plinker.


Is that a 22/45 with suppressor? 
What optic is that? 
Ken


----------



## ewebb10

Yes, 22/45 with a liberty essence. Optic is a trijicon.


----------



## Kgp

I've got a Mark IV Competition that I like very much. Considering adding a 22/45 for ease of mounting an optic. I have a Viper Venom on my FNH FX45 Tactical and a Holosun 510 on my CMMG Banshee. Probably do another Venom on the 22/45 because of the size difference.


----------



## playero

sold another gun to buy a couple of knives for new hobbie.


----------



## Grunt173

playero said:


> sold another gun to buy a couple of knives for new hobbie.


somewhere there is help for you.


----------



## Kgp

playero said:


> sold another gun to buy a couple of knives for new hobbie.


What you got hiding in the safe? Always looking for a bargain! More than happy to help out a fellow addict!


----------



## panda

playero said:


> sold another gun to buy a couple of knives for new hobbie.


whatdya get?


----------



## playero

were I am at the moment is a pain to sell guns, since licenses are restricted and I have to go thru a licensed gun shop. 3 *Kalashnikov, 1 taurus 9mm, 12 HK p7, 4 357 mag short and long revolvers, 1 Casul, 3 Calico 9mm, benelli shotgun, 50 cal desert eagle, a couple of ppk/s germany, and some sw.*


----------



## ewebb10

I would love to get my hands on a P7. If you’re ever selling let me know.


----------



## playero

I just sent for cerakote in starwars color a VP70 and a PPK/s, if they come as I expect will color a P7 also like starwars.


----------



## Bert2368

playero said:


> 3 *Kalashnikov, 1 taurus 9mm, 12 HK p7, 4 357 mag short and long revolvers, 1 Casul, 3 Calico 9mm, benelli shotgun, 50 cal desert eagle, a couple of ppk/s germany, and some sw.*



You have TWELVE P7s? I approve! Are you in USA?


----------



## panda

what is the reasoning of having 12 of the same pistol? lol im really curious, got a group pic?


----------



## ewebb10

HK quit making them so price is going up. If I could find 12 I’d buy them too. If I had the cash.


----------



## playero

one black NIB 13, one nickel NIB 13 same as #10, and one #8. the others are for fun. check gun broker someone is selling s group of consecutive number guns https://www.gunbroker.com/item/797293977 a lot of people like this


----------



## playero

Bert2368 said:


> You have TWELVE P7s? I approve! Are you in USA?


not anymore. but there was a group in texas called "park cities tactical" that had some people with extremely big collections.


----------



## Bert2368

Bloody hell. $2,000 each STARTING BID for used P7 pistols in a lot of 9?!

These appeare to be from the same vintage as the P7 ex German police guns CDNN sold for around $600 to $700 some years back.


----------



## panda

so those are the KS of pistols? lol

i've been reading up on 2011's, sti edge in particular.


----------



## playero

what is KS? in 1982 they were expensive around 700 dollars


----------



## ewebb10

Nickel P7 is my unicorn!!


----------



## Bert2368

ewebb10 said:


> Nickel P7 is my unicorn!!



The members of the old P7 forum worked up some good procedures for hard chrome or electroless Nickel on what were originally blued P7s. They were intended to be carry guns, but blued steel and sweat don't get on well.

I was on a dive trip with a retired NJ state police officer, a pleasant and relaxed man- until I asked him about his departments use of the P7.

According to him, they loved the pistol. During the time it was the department's standard issue side arm, not ONE of the NJ officers carrying a P7 was shot with their own pistol by a crimininal- They might lose them, but the people who got hold of them couldn't figure out how the gun ran. (in USA, about 50% of all police who get shot are shot with THEIR OWN firearm- Glocks without any manual safety? Point and press, kaboom.).

Then the state of NJ decided to go with cheaper plastic pistols, refused to allow officers to purchase their old P7 duty pistols, collected all those nice steel P7s and DESTROYED THEM.

Because, politics.


----------



## Kgp

ewebb10 said:


> Nickel P7 is my unicorn!!


Here’s mine! I’ve got at least a dozen hand guns, and this is my favorite by a wide margin.

Ken


----------



## HRC_64

whats the appeal of these as a user? 
the grip-safety aspect, or something else?


----------



## Barmoley

They are very accurate and easy to shoot accurately. Triggers are very good, and they can be carried with a round in the chamber safely due to the grip safety. They heat up a lot when shot a lot in a short period of time.


----------



## Kgp

Extremely high quality that is evident when you handle one. Here's a good article.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/jeremy-s/heckler-koch-p7-is-the-best-pistol-ever/


----------



## ewebb10

Ken, I'm jealous!


----------



## Kgp

ewebb10 said:


> Ken, I'm jealous!


Was able to get one a few years ago from HKParts. These were the German police ones and some had been nickel plated prior to sale. Not sure how much it had been used, but I couldn't tell it from new. I believe he was selling them for less than $800 for the nickel, $700 for blue. Should have bought a few more. 

Ken


----------



## ewebb10

There's one on hkpro right now for $2150 so I think you did pretty good.


----------



## Bert2368

HRC_64 said:


> whats the appeal of these as a user?
> the grip-safety aspect, or something else?



They have a couple of good points deriving from the design and ergonomics- Let's start with accuracy?

Mechanical potential for accuracy: The barrel is FIXED to the frame, unusual in a delayed blowback pistol (or any reasonably light weight pistol over about .380/9mm short energy levels).

No inaccuracy due to sloppy, loose barrel lockup as happens with the various tilting, rotating or roller locking barrel systems- Which MUST have sufficient looseness to unlock properly even when dirty or very cold.

Attempts to tighten up moving barrel locking systems for better accuracy often lead to failures to cycle unless clean, well lubed and fired only in a "shirtsleeve environment". Tightened working parts clearances may lead to ammunition sensitivity, possibly requiring one to install different springs to tune a pistol for different loads. This may be an acceptable tradeoff in a match pistol if you like to tinker but it can get you killed in a carry pistol.

Very little "muzzle flip", a potential for quicker, more accurate follow up shots: The bore axis is very low, closer to in line with your arm than (most) delayed blowback designs which keep recoil springs, disconnecting links & etc. BELOW the barrel and require the breech to drop during recoil as in the Browning system and variants, the sights are also lower compared to this family of pistols.

Cocking lever encourages a uniform grip: You HAVE to hold that lever in, the force required keeps you from "limp wristing" or otherwise being as sloppy with your grip as can easily happen with other styles. Even a 1911 style grip safety won't do this to the extent the squeeze cocker does.

Light trigger: Since you need to squeeze the grip pretty firmly to **** the striker and hold it in at all times to KEEP it cocked, the trigger pull can be quite light yet still "drop safe" compared to some designs that stay cocked when dropped and have the potential to fire when they hit the ground. For example, the infamous NYPD Glock speced for a 16lb. + trigger pull?

A uniform trigger pull whether first or any succeeding shot and a really nice, short trigger reset.

----------

Safety-

Untrained people who take your gun away from you or get unauthorized access have regularly been shown to be unlikely to shoot (you?) with it immediately afterwards- The manual of arms is not difficult to learn but the cocking lever actuation is unique. As mentioned, a very good thing in a carry pistol.

Also as mentioned, once it leaves your hand, it's decocked in a fraction of a second. Doesn't get more "drop safe" than that.

Much less likely to have a negligent discharge- Two positive actions required to fire from the draw ALWAYS, no leaving this pistol holstered and cocked but not locked.

Plenty of people have got a bullet stripe down their leg or worse from the discharge of a holstered, cocked pistol. The P7 is not prone to this type of negligent discharge yet no extra time or non intuitive finger motions are required to bring the pistol from holstered and uncocked to cocked and ready to fire, only a firmer grip is initily required than most other pistols.

After achieving cocked status, the grip force required to maintain pistol cocked is enough less than initial cocking force not to be fatigueing, but not so much less that you don't have to consciously apply it.

------

This pistol was intended to be as carry safe as possible yet allow the users to get off a few ACCURATE shots as QUICKLY as possible. Design goal was achieved.

It is a cary pistol designed for use where accidental discharge or losing control of the weapon are considered to be a greater danger than encounters with multiple armed opponents/other situations requiring one to expend more than one or two magazines.

The P7 was never intended to be used in a pitched battle. It is not a target pistol for long strings of fire, as noted, the gas delay system HEATS UP after a couple of magazines. After several hundred shots with dirty ammo, the gas cylinder will need cleaning which requires a field strip and a scraper tool or, in a pinch, a .270 cal. wire brush.

It is what it is:

"If one is going to carry an underpowered pistol he sould carry the neatest and handiest one available, and that is the H&K P7."
- Jeff Cooper

I wish this system were available in .45ACP but H&K never got past the protype on that caliber.

I have heard that the .45 ACP prototype had a HYDRAULIC BUFFER like an artillery piece, the required ratio beteen gas cylinder and barrel diameters didn't allow a small enough gas cylinder design.


----------



## HRC_64

interesting. sounds useful for those who really need it.


----------



## playero

super guy Jeff Cooper


----------



## Gjackson98

I was using coworkers .22 today, this gun is super fun


----------



## Bert2368

Gjackson98 said:


> I was using coworkers .22 today, this gun is super funView attachment 48362



There was this kid from down the road in my class at high school, not a rocket scientist by any means. 

Dennis was known for wrecking pickup trucks by swerving while TRYING to hit racoons on back roads late at night, shooting his own dog right between the eyes with a .22 (dog survived but lost its sense of smell) accidentally while coon hunting when the coon was succeeding at drowning his dog, then blowing a couple of the same dog's toes off in a repeat of the previous d9g drowning escapade- and myriad other vehicular, firearm and hound related screwups. 

But Dennis could SHOOT with a Ruger .22 pistol. He had the blued steel version of that Ruger Mk. (probably II back then) with the long pencil barreland I saw him get hits on small targets with it at 100 yards and more with FACTORY IRON SIGHTS. 

Bill Ruger and Mr. Sturm had a pretty darned good .22 pistol design if 'ol Dennis (this kid had a head shaped like an old fashioned Mercury outboard power unit) could do what I saw him do with one.


----------



## Cashn

I love my Buckmark .22 pistol, was reluctant to get it for a while because I had a .22 rifle but it really is fun as hell. I’ve got a Leupold red dot on it and a suppressor on the way that will be released in 6 months hopefully. My buddy has a Ruger MK IV 22/45, I preferred the look of the Buckmark. Cant go wrong with either of them.


----------



## panda

Went to the range and I'm totally screwed, fell completely in love with this 1911!! The trigger was best part, crisp crisp crisp no slop. I may need to get a year membership to the range cause I plan on dumping all my hobby budget into ammo. Lol

Got carried away and did bunch of rapid fires, hehe.


----------



## Cashn

Consider a shotgun and some skeet with an area to sling with a friend or two. It’ll definitely scratch the shooting itch and much cheaper too. Not to mention you can bring a cooler to a field, not that you’d drink anything other than soda water...


----------



## Grunt173

Been waiting for an update from you Panda.Glad you are enjoying that STI. That girl looks like a nice date.


----------



## WAVERY

Cashn said:


> Consider a shotgun and some skeet with an area to sling with a friend or two. It’ll definitely scratch the shooting itch and much cheaper too. Not to mention you can bring a cooler to a field, not that you’d drink anything other than soda water...


Sporting clays is the golf for men!


----------



## Gjackson98

panda said:


> Went to the range and I'm totally screwed, fell completely in love with this 1911!! The trigger was best part, crisp crisp crisp no slop. I may need to get a year membership to the range cause I plan on dumping all my hobby budget into ammo. Lol
> 
> Got carried away and did bunch of rapid fires, hehe.
> 
> View attachment 48878
> View attachment 48879



1911 is on my list, so sexy


----------



## playero

see a cylinder and slide 1911, they make a supercool one.


----------



## Ryndunk

WAVERY said:


> Sporting clays is the golf for men!


My favorite way to waste ammo!


----------



## panda

already upgrading parts! hehe
waiting on new grips i ordered that come with magwell cuts on the underside before i install everything.
so far i am liking the tripp cobra magazine the most, it feels more 'stable'.


----------



## Barmoley

Tripp are my favorite mags. Mag loaders are for wimps, real man don't use them. I also like to replace full length recoil spring guide with GI setup.


----------



## Grunt173

Gotta love those Tripps. I sure like mine. I think I would hide that speed loader though.


----------



## Bert2368

Barmoley said:


> Mag loaders are for wimps, real man don't use them.



Tell me about that after loading half a dozen 9mm STEN or .45 M2 "grease gun" mags. 

Thumbs, only two are issued per customer...


----------



## Barmoley

I've done it, I stand by my statement


----------



## Bert2368

Barmoley said:


> I've done it, I stand by my statement



Best of all possible worlds, take a kid shooting. Let HIM/HER load the magazines...


----------



## Bert2368

panda said:


> I may need to get a year membership to the range cause I plan on dumping all my hobby budget into ammo.



I was lucky enough to grow up where I could shoot in the back yard. Then for several decades, I spent way too much on range fees, that really cuts into your budget for ammo... Things are better now that we have our own range.

While we were building our warehouse/freight dock, the excavating contractor left a bulldozer on site. We asked if we could borrow it for a quick little project, got permission- And used it to make a berm for a range on the East side of the business property.

After repositioning some spoils from on site road building, we have firing positions at 100, 200 and 300 yards. It's not indoors, but I've set up lights and used it after dark.

We put a small prep building around 150 yards from the berm at a slight angle to the shooting lane and if weather is bad, you can open a window and shoot from inside.

Another pile of spoils was used for a berm to South of the prep building so it is protected against stray shots from the 200 and 300 yard firing points-

I put a deer stand on top of the berm, we have shot 16 deer ON THE RANGE over the past 11 years. Don't have to estimate distances that way...


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

Welp since these are all legally classified as handguns, thought I’d drop them here. CZ Scorpion Evo with a Franklin Armory binary trigger, B&T TP9-N with an aimpoint t2, and the best damn sub gun ever made the B&T APC45 with a Trijicon MRO. All three rocking Gearhead Works tailhooks so no tax stamps. The BCM shorty is also not considered a VFG so they’re considered pistols not AOW’s.


----------



## Kgp

HalfBloodHobbit said:


> Welp since these are all legally classified as handguns, thought I’d drop them here. CZ Scorpion Evo with a Franklin Armory binary trigger, B&T TP9-N with an aimpoint t2, and the best damn sub gun ever made the B&T APC45 with a Trijicon MRO. All three rocking Gearhead Works tailhooks so no tax stamps. The BCM shorty is also not considered a VFG so they’re considered pistols not AOW’s.


I've recently gotten into the A/R type "handguns" also. CMMG Banshee in .45 and Grand Power Stribog in 9mm. Loads of fun but suck up a LOT of ammo!

Ken


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

Kgp said:


> I've recently gotten into the A/R type "handguns" also. CMMG Banshee in .45 and Grand Power Stribog in 9mm. Loads of fun but suck up a LOT of ammo!
> 
> Ken


Eventually I’ll get a JP enterprises AR PCC for competition, but right now I’m loving the APC45 especially with the Geissele trigger in it. I also have a Honey Badger pistol in .300 blackout coming with Q precision’s Thunder Chicken suppressor


----------



## Gjackson98

HalfBloodHobbit said:


> Eventually I’ll get a JP enterprises AR PCC for competition, but right now I’m loving the APC45 especially with the Geissele trigger in it. I also have a Honey Badger pistol in .300 blackout coming with Q precision’s Thunder Chicken suppressor



Good choices and JP makes some very good stuff


----------



## Bert2368

THUNDER CHICKEN?!




Nope. She's still right where I saw her last.


----------



## Grunt173

Bert2368 said:


> THUNDER CHICKEN?!View attachment 49189
> 
> 
> Nope. She's still right where I saw her last.


Were you in my chicken yard? I have everyone of those,all raised from last year.Sent the wife to Tractor Supply for six chicks and she came home with 22.Now we are getting like 12 to 18 eggs a day and there are only three of us.Looks like my two Roosters(Winedots)sp.Love my girls too.


----------



## Bert2368

Rooster behind the fence is a silver grey dorking. 

Very old meat breed, big, calm roosters, 5 toes.

Similarly, Mira looked at a catalogue from the hatchery, like a kid in a candy shop. Suddenly we had 50 chickens in a coop I designed for 25.

Down to 18 now- plus 3 ducks and 4 red bourbon turkeys.


----------



## Grunt173

Bert2368 said:


> Rooster behind the fence is a silver grey dorking.
> 
> Very old meat breed, big, calm roosters, 5 toes.
> 
> Similarly, Mira looked at a catalogue from the hatchery, like a kid in a candy shop. Suddenly we had 50 chickens in a coop I designed for 25.
> 
> Down to 18 now- plus 3 ducks and 4 red bourbon turkeys.


Tell me about it.I had to go out and buy a way bigger coop house for mine too.Sue didn't think about that.lol
Your Dorking is very simlar to my Winedots.Also have Isa Browns,Barred Rocks and Rhode Island Reds.Need any eggs?


----------



## Bert2368

Grunt173 said:


> Need any eggs?



Um, we're good on eggs...

When that disease problem took out a large portion of the battery hens in USA a couple of years back, I DID sell enough eggs to my favorite Vietnamese grocery store to more than cover feed and diesel fuel.

Before the eagles and hawks discovered how slow moving and tasty my ducks were, I could sell them all the duck eggs I could get. They askedme to sell them 3 week incubated duck eggs, but I didn't have time, plus I really didn't want to after I had hatched out a batch of my own ducklings.


----------



## panda

so my second range trip was a HUGE disappointment but it was entirely my fault. the slide wasnt locking back on empty mag, quite a few failure to eject, and the two new magazines (cmc & tripp, the new wilson mag released fine) did not want to release very well, even having to forcibly pull them out a bunch of times.

here are most likely reasons:
i did not clean the gun after first session
i did not put any lube on the new parts (slide release, mag release)
i put the stock grips back on (because im too impatient to wait for the new ones to arrive) after installing the wilson magwell without cutting out the undersides to make it sit flush. instead there was a gap and they were quite loose toward the end of the day.


----------



## Barmoley

Yeah, you messed it up. Common rookie mistake, take a perfectly fine and working gun and replace parts with after market ones all at the same time because it has to make it better....it's not like people who built the gun know what they are doing... Remove the magwell and put the original slide release back, so that only mag release is the new part see if that fixes things. If not put the original mag release back. Before changing parts around you really should shoot it a lot to know what it is you want changed.


----------



## panda

i got short thumbs so i wanted extended to make it easier to reach the parts, i thought that was a reasonable change to consider. magwell i can do without but i really would like to have the extended parts.


----------



## Barmoley

Just try them one at a time to figure out which causes the problem. Sometimes drop in parts are not and need to be fitted a little, file a little, check, file a little check.... One at a time and just a tiny bit, more polishing then removing much metal, some of these parts are case hardened and you don't want to get to the soft steel. Also you don't want to change geometry too much so need patience. One part at a time.....


----------



## Bert2368

Yup, change one variable at a time.

Clean a new gun FREQUENTLY during break in and run it WET. If you're getting a few oil spots on your eye protection, you're almost well enough lubed. 

I made the mistake of adding ALL the "improvements" GF wanted to her AR 10 at once.

That was NOT a good day, I learned at the range how to open a jammed AR when there is only a charging handle and forward assist, no reciprocating bolt handle you can hammer on (shudder).

(Short answer: Go where rifle owner can't see what you're about to do, then SLAM the butt stock down HARD on something solid & immovable which hopefully won't mar or break the stock, all while pulling back on charging handle and keeping any valuable stuff or body parts away from muzzle)


----------



## panda

I asked for slim grips, but only one side was slim, the right side they sent me standard thickness ones which is strange because the guy told me these are made to order. I sent an email asking what da fuq??

Did a cleaning session and lubed her up. mag release works fine now, I think it just needed to be broken in a little. I'll find out if the slide stop works properly next time I go to the range.

Oh and I added grip tape to front strap.


----------



## Cashn

This might be vaguely related. I went to a big shoot out this past weekend with a lot of guys much older than me. One thing I’ve always wanted to improve was the forward travel on the trigger of my hi power. The break is crisp and clean but when I’m shooting I pull the trigger back to where it stops and then line up my shot and shoot. I let one of the older guys shoot it who is a retired police officer and does the firearm certification for the deputies in his parish. He thought the trigger was a “pleasure to shoot.” Thats coming from a man who has dealt with guns in a much more serious manner for the better part of his life than I have. Made me think that I shouldn’t focus on how bad the trigger is but how I should improve myself. What I will say is that if you use the gun long enough it will become second nature to maybe do a little shift in hand position to drop the magazine or release the slide if you have to go back to the stock parts. On a side note I got to shoot guns I’ve only dreamt of at this shoot out! Full autos and several .50 calibers with everything in between and holy **** it was awesome.


----------



## Bert2368

Primary attention is on FRONT SIGHT.

Practice dry firing (with a CAREFULLY cleared weapon) for HOURS over several days between actual live ammo range sessions. Do it while you watch TV (Take THAT Tony Soprano!!!) or at other times you are doing something kind of brain dead, perhaps.

Burn in the muscle memory of how your body, trigger pull and sight picture interact.

And ask that cop trainer to watch you shoot & listen to his assessment of your performance carefully.

Good luck- God knows, I'm still learning, 50 some years after starting.


----------



## 9mmbhp

Bert2368 said:


> Primary attention is on FRONT SIGHT.
> 
> Practice dry firing (with a CAREFULLY cleared weapon) for HOURS over several days between actual live ammo range sessions. Do it while you watch TV (Take THAT Tony Soprano!!!) or at other times you are doing something kind of brain dead, perhaps.



The Gunsite mantra: FRONT SITE, PRESS.

Col. Cooper advised dry-firing while watching TV by targeting the biggest 'O' on the screen during commercial breaks. Exercises target identification, presentation, sight picture acquisition and trigger release under realistic time pressure. Load mag with a couple of snap-caps and practice clearing type-1 malfunctions too.


----------



## Dylan

XDm 45 Threaded wearing a very comfy StealthGearUSA iwb holster. I’m a long range rifle kind of guy, but this pistol makes me happy every time I take it out


----------



## panda

i like the holster!


----------



## parbaked

panda said:


> i like the holster!


You need one so you don't drop the Trojan in the walk-in while you're interviewing the new hostess...


----------



## Dylan

panda said:


> i like the holster!


I cannot recommend them enough. Relatively no break in period, carries well, and as said before, extremely comfortable (even more so if you live in a hot/humid climate). Would buy again in a heartbeat


----------



## panda

parbaked said:


> You need one so you don't drop the Trojan in the walk-in while you're interviewing the new hostess...


I told you that story in confidence!!


----------



## parbaked

panda said:


> I told you that story in confidence!!


I love that your new toy makes it look like you're sponsored by a condom company...


----------



## Butaru

I hate the rain! No outdoor range time... I recently shot my Glock 45. It put my 17 and 19 on the back burner. My Beretta Langdon TT is now my favorite non-polymer. I’m thinking of picking up a nighthawk soon, but blew funds on a over-under. Breaking clays as soon as the weather gets better!!!


----------



## panda

if i ever decide to get a long gun it will be an over-under shotty. i also really like winchester lever action.


----------



## Dylan

panda said:


> if i ever decide to get a long gun it will be an over-under shotty. i also really like winchester lever action.


When (not if) you get a O/U you’d be doing yourself a favor to look at Beretta. Gorgeous guns inside and out.


----------



## Butaru

Dylan said:


> When (not if) you get a O/U you’d be doing yourself a favor to look at Beretta. Gorgeous guns inside and out.



Nicely said. Their autoloaders IMHO are awesome as well.


----------



## daveb

Dylan said:


> When (not if) you get a O/U you’d be doing yourself a favor to look at Beretta. Gorgeous guns inside and out.



Tru dat. Have two two-holers, 682, 686. I likes em. But for the quackers it's a Benelli.


----------



## panda

I really want a second handgun tho, looking hard at CZ 75 shadow SAO..


----------



## Cashn

I’ve been wanting to get a SxS shotgun for a while (10+years) problem is my Remington 870 hasn’t failed me yet. I’ve been lookin at the options. CZZ seems like the best xsal


----------



## Grunt173

Sold my Browning over under feather lite in 20 ga. after my fateful day rabbit hunting and my beagle ran the same rabbit pass me by 10 yards 4 times in a row and two shots each failed to produce the fury little beast.I got the rabbit on the last shot,number 8,in fact ,however,upon further examination of my trophy,I discovered not one BB anywhere in the rabbit,The little son-of-a -gun died of a heart attack.Went back to my Remington 1100 20 ga. and never missed another rabbit.Gator,my beagle was much happier for the change back to old faithful.
Very,very true hunting yarn.


----------



## daveb

Damn, my dog would bite me if I missed.....


----------



## Grunt173

daveb said:


> Damn, my dog would bite me if I missed.....


My dog was to tired to bite me but you should have seen the look on his face when he turned around to look at me as the rabbit went for his fourth circle.


----------



## panda

went back to the range, got some answers to my problems.
problem 1: slide not locking back on empty
my dumb ass ordered the slide release that is only for 45 cal, lol. correct part on order now.. 
problem 2: magazines not releasing right
i need to blend the magwell to the gun. that's going to take a lot of filing, so i'm just gonna have local gunsmith do it tomorrow. 
also the extended button keeps coming loose, was told i need to loctite it.

strange part is, wilson etm mag works just fine, slide even locks back!

also, i got to rent a cz 75 sp-01 and i loved it!! it feels so good and great balance. i really liked the ergonomic rubber grips.. i was not a fan of the trigger or the sights though, but that can all be fixed (thinking cz customs SAO trigger job and blacked out serrated rear sights plus gold dot in front). definitely one of these in my future.


----------



## Grunt173

Most problems with 1911's are caused by some of the magazines flooding the market along with many of the aftermarket parts.When in doubt,go back to the OEM parts.


----------



## panda

The stock one has a sharp spot that always digs into my thumb while loading rounds, definite no way on going back to oem mag lol


----------



## Grunt173

panda said:


> went back to the range, got some answers to my problems.
> problem 1: slide not locking back on empty
> my dumb ass ordered the slide release that is only for 45 cal, lol. correct part on order now..
> problem 2: magazines not releasing right
> i need to blend the magwell to the gun. that's going to take a lot of filing, so i'm just gonna have local gunsmith do it tomorrow.
> also the extended button keeps coming loose, was told i need to loctite it.
> 
> strange part is, wilson etm mag works just fine, slide even locks back!
> 
> also, i got to rent a cz 75 sp-01 and i loved it!! it feels so good and great balance. i really liked the ergonomic rubber grips.. i was not a fan of the trigger or the sights though, but that can all be fixed (thinking cz customs SAO trigger job and blacked out serrated rear sights plus gold dot in front). definitely one of these in my future.


I never shot one but I did hear the CZ 75 is a heck of a pistola.


----------



## Bert2368

Fired several types of CZ 75s, we have got one in the armory. This would be my second choice for a full size carry pistol.

We also bought several surplus CZ 52 pistols back when they cost about $120 and the ammo cost about the same as the price of shipping. Not practical for carry but great fun.

And CZ rifles, both mini and full size center fire plus rimfire. There are 6 different ones on hand now.

CZ is an addiction, not a brand.


----------



## 1066AndAllThat

I'm confused; why do you have a handgun thread on a forum about kitchen knives?


----------



## daveb

There's more to life than just kitchen knives. Not much more but still.

Hence the "Off Topic" Forum. You'll find knife knuts also interested in coffee, cigars, wine, booze, cars and a host of other money pits.


----------



## krx927

Do not own a gun yet but enjoy reading this thread. Immediately when I relocate to my home country I am going to get a gun permit and start shooting! All CZs sound great. Still need to make my pick of the submodel to buy


----------



## Grunt173

Yep,CZ rifles here too.I have several in different 22 rimfire configurations and a 17 HMR heavy barrel. All can compete with the best,including Anshutz.


----------



## 1066AndAllThat

daveb said:


> There's more to life than just kitchen knives. Not much more but still.
> 
> Hence the "Off Topic" Forum. You'll find knife knuts also interested in coffee, cigars, wine, booze, cars and a host of other money pits.



OK, fair enough, especially for the US contingent. As a Brit, not sure I'm totally comfortable with it myself, so I might retire gracefully...


----------



## daveb

1066AndAllThat said:


> OK, fair enough, especially for the US contingent. As a Brit, not sure I'm totally comfortable with it myself, so I might retire gracefully...


And that's fair if that pleases you.

Pls note that why we'll discuss the merits of different guns we will not discuss the merits of the "right to own" or any other political tangent associated with them. There are plenty of other venues for that discussion.


----------



## HRC_64

1066AndAllThat said:


> OK, fair enough, especially for the US contingent. As a Brit, not sure I'm totally comfortable with it myself, so I might retire gracefully...



not sure why you even feel the need to comment like this?
you're in the "off topic" forum...and its not like you're ESL


----------



## Gjackson98

what do you guys use for conceal carry (gun and hostler)?


----------



## Kgp

Gjackson98 said:


> what do you guys use for conceal carry (gun and hostler)?


Sig 238
Kimber Micro 9
HK P7

Ankle holster

Ken


----------



## 1066AndAllThat

HRC_64 said:


> not sure why you even feel the need to comment like this?
> you're in the "off topic" forum...and its not like you're ESL


ESL?


----------



## 1066AndAllThat

daveb said:


> And that's fair if that pleases you.
> 
> Pls note that why we'll discuss the merits of different guns we will not discuss the merits of the "right to own" or any other political tangent associated with them. There are plenty of other venues for that discussion.


Understood - If ever you get a Brit on here that says they like guns, and gets actively involved in any discussions - they're probably a nutter who should be reported.


----------



## Gjackson98

Kgp said:


> Sig 238
> Kimber Micro 9
> HK P7
> 
> Ankle holster
> 
> Ken



I have a Glock19 kinda looking for a better holster for carry, or maybe a different gun, as summer is getting closer and closer


----------



## Kgp

I have a tough time with holsters since I usually wear tucked-in shirts. Been researching Urban Carry holsters. Pricey, but look very nice.

Ken


----------



## MontezumaBoy

1066AndAllThat said:


> Understood - If ever you get a Brit on here that says they like guns, and gets actively involved in any discussions - they're probably a nutter who should be reported.



Not sure I agree with your assessment as I worked several years with a dozen, or so, Brits (in Berlin) who were very actively involved in shooting and (in general) gun ownership. I guess they all must have been nuts though since they said were so educated, talented and calm folks just doing exceptional work at cutting edge turbine compressor (LP and HP) design and testing. 

Now don't get me started about Italians chatting about espresso/pizza or French that go on about bread making/fois gras - those folks scare the living daylights out of me.


----------



## Dylan

Kgp said:


> I have a tough time with holsters since I usually wear tucked-in shirts. Been researching Urban Carry holsters. Pricey, but look very nice.
> 
> Ken


If you haven't already, check out StealthGearUSA (mentioned on a prior page). I'll probably never use another brand again after trying these. YMMV


----------



## panda

I don't carry cause I'm always drunk


----------



## panda

Gjackson98 said:


> I have a Glock19 kinda looking for a better holster for carry, or maybe a different gun, as summer is getting closer and closer


Try a CZ p-01


----------



## larrybard

1066AndAllThat said:


> ESL?


English as a second language


----------



## panda

This was waiting for me at home. 






The addiction is real. I've been spending roughly $100 a week, yikeals, but totally worth it!! Such an amazing stress reliever/entertaining.


----------



## Grunt173

panda said:


> This was waiting for me at home.
> View attachment 49838
> 
> 
> The addiction is real. I've been spending roughly $100 a week, yikeals, but totally worth it!! Such an amazing stress reliever/entertaining.


Those ought to keep you going for awhile for some fun. Those look like lead coated cast bullets . They should keep the leading at bay and shoot well.


----------



## Gjackson98

panda said:


> This was waiting for me at home.
> View attachment 49838
> 
> 
> The addiction is real. I've been spending roughly $100 a week, yikeals, but totally worth it!! Such an amazing stress reliever/entertaining.



I can relate, recently got into shooting, burning through bills like crazy, but so worth it lol


----------



## Bert2368

Space aliens! Space aliens!

They must have been IN THE KITCHEN last night, look at what they left on the cutting board!!!

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/if-getting-attacked-in-the-kitchen.40730/










-----------

Herself likes what I call "space guns". So do artistic directors on video shoots, if it's an especially futuristic, scary and black gun, they LOVE it (unless they're trying to portray hunters/hicks with guns, if you watch "In Search of Bigfoot", you'll see a couple of rifles I have killed deer with).

This pistol was ordered, paid for and the paperwork for the integral suppressor filed 11 MONTHS AGO. BATF finally got around to looking at the paperwork and approving this last week.

At the factory, they test fire these. All well and good, they should do that. THE ****ERS DIDN'T CLEAN THE SUPPRESSOR AFTER THAT, just shipped it to the retailer, who held it in a vault for 11 months.

Of course, we wanted to strip it down and look things over, learn how it works and generally oogle at it right away, with the storm last night, we aren't going to have time to hit our range for another week.

The two long bolts that hold the suppressor together, which are INSIDE the suppressor chamber & exposed to gas, fouling and heat? One of them is frozen, thanks to that long wait in fouled condition.

http://www.kanolabs.com//penLub.htm...zchdyjNrWXY-LtCSCXJIVxfFDwEQK8jhoC7h4QAvD_BwE

Soak the threaded end we can reach in "Kroil", tap on the bolt head to vibrate the parts and help the Kroil creep into the threads, wait, repeat. After a while, this USUALLY will let you get a stuck bolt out of a gun, engine or whatever without stripping the head, needing to drill fastener head out & etc. Sometimes takes a couple of days. Hasn't worked in the first 12 hours now, try again tonight.

This purchase/paperwork event has been a frustrating experience that just keeps on giving.


----------



## Bert2368

Oops! I wrangled guns on "Bigfoot Captured", NOT "In Search of Bigfoot"... NEITHER is in any way worth your time, be warned.

I had the experience of teaching a number of city people what poison ivy looks like during that gig. And of schedenfreud when some of the cast & crew were too cool to listen to my advice.


----------



## swarth

Gun snugglers are worse than vegans  It seems these proclivities share the improbable likeness that they are germane to any conversation.


----------



## HugSeal

Bert2368 said:


> Space aliens! Space aliens!
> 
> They must have been IN THE KITCHEN last night, look at what they left on the cutting board!!!
> 
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/if-getting-attacked-in-the-kitchen.40730/
> 
> View attachment 49940
> 
> 
> View attachment 49941
> 
> 
> View attachment 49942
> 
> 
> -----------



Well, considering the size of that front barrel it could double up as a saya


----------



## Bert2368

swarth said:


> Gun snugglers are worse than vegans  It seems these proclivities share the improbable likeness that they are germane to any conversation.



But vegans ARE "very germane" to conversations on a chef's knife forum, they are valuable protein resources!




And a well snuggled gun is the BEST way to invite them to dinner...


----------



## panda

Really liking these grips. Slim g10 golfball.

Replaced slide stop with a correct size one (Wilson bulletproof semi extended) and everything works good again, except for one magazine. The chip McCormick still doesn't lock the slide on last round and is also difficult to remove. Should I just call it a loss and replace with one that I know works well in my gun? which is a shame cause I find these the easiest to load bullets into.


----------



## parbaked

This is a forum to discuss hobbies, not politics...that is clearly stated in the Off Topics "home page".
_"Please keep religion and politics to yourself"
_


----------



## daveb

This is the end of this tangent. From all parties. Done. Finito. Any questions? Don't ask.


----------



## panda

what did i miss? who the hell brought that nonsense into my thread? lol and how?? why tho??


----------



## daveb

Whatch you talking about? Nothing to see hear.


----------



## panda

This is how she looks currently.


----------



## Barmoley

Dude, you need to practice more you missed all of them......


----------



## panda

Lol, brand new package of targets, you see the reflections from plastic wrap?


----------



## Barmoley

I know, I know just messing with you. Nice looking pistola.


----------



## Grunt173

Looking good Panda.


----------



## Funge107

CZ SP01 Tactical


----------



## panda

Funge107 said:


> CZ SP01 Tactical


Rented one of those few weeks ago, loved it.


----------



## Funge107

I had bought this after i bought my first CZ 97 BD (45 Cal) . I Loved that so much i bought a CZ SP01 tactical and had it shipped directly to Cajun Gun Works in Louisiana for a custom trigger Job! I also have a CZ 75 D PCR Compact i guess you could say i have a problem!
CZ makes great handguns not so much shotguns and rifles.


----------



## Deshi

panda said:


> View attachment 50110
> 
> Really liking these grips. Slim g10 golfball.
> 
> Replaced slide stop with a correct size one (Wilson bulletproof semi extended) and everything works good again, except for one magazine. The chip McCormick still doesn't lock the slide on last round and is also difficult to remove. Should I just call it a loss and replace with one that I know works well in my gun? which is a shame cause I find these the easiest to load bullets into.



Best 45 magazines I’ve used are Wilson’s 7 round - ultra reliable and a pleasure to load.


----------



## playero




----------



## Grunt173

playero said:


> View attachment 50319


Oh God,that is one ugly looking pistol.


----------



## panda

Looks like a toy


----------



## Grunt173

panda said:


> Looks like a toy


I think you are correct.I see the HK logo on the grip now and I doubt HK would ever think about screwing up their good name.


----------



## Kgp

Here


Grunt173 said:


> I think you are correct.I see the HK logo on the grip now and I doubt HK would ever think about screwing up their good name.


Here's an article on them. First polymer gun. Doubt that it came that color, someone probably painted it or had it cerakoted. 

Ken
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/01/odd-guns-hk-vp70z/


----------



## Grunt173

Kgp said:


> Here
> 
> Here's an article on them. First polymer gun. Doubt that it came that color, someone probably painted it or had it cerakoted.
> 
> Ken
> https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/01/odd-guns-hk-vp70z/



Very interesting.Lots of stuff in that article I was never aware of. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## playero

vp70 cerakoted white will be made to look like starwars trooper gun.


----------



## Kgp

I'd rather have a light sabre!


----------



## Zadman

Oh man my next favorite thing...

Current lineup:
Ruger Mark I .22
Ruger p95 9mm
Ruger LCRX .38sp
Springfield XDM competition .40

Need to add a .44 mag and a .45 still 

Zad


----------



## Zadman

Oh man my next favorite thing...

Current lineup:
Ruger Mark I .22
Ruger p95 9mm
Ruger LCRX .38sp
Springfield XDM competition .40


----------



## Steel+Fire

Just found this thread. Didn't think there would be so many firearms peeps on this board. I work for a state DOC and am an instructor there. I shoot a lot of 9mm from my duty gun which is a M&P 9. I also carry my M&P Shield off duty religiously and shoot it regularly. I have been using firearms professionally for many years as both a civilian and in military service.

A ton of quality pistols mentioned on this thread. I do really like the STI guns if price is no object. I have shot 2 of their offerings and it is basically impossible to miss inside 25 yards with their 9mm. I was shooting a 4" steel plate with one at a range exhibition and was almost rapid firing at 25 yards and seriously not missing the plate. That was the STI Tactical.

Panda or anyone else who is planning to purchase a firearm please get some training and then make sure you practice regularly. Shooting is a skill and requires training to be proficient. Have fun too.


----------



## CulinaryCellist

An old Walther ppk I got from my grandfather as a present


----------



## panda

I've been going to the range once a week with half a case of ammo at a time. 


Steel+Fire said:


> Just found this thread. Didn't think there would be so many firearms peeps on this board. I work for a state DOC and am an instructor there. I shoot a lot of 9mm from my duty gun which is a M&P 9. I also carry my M&P Shield off duty religiously and shoot it regularly. I have been using firearms professionally for many years as both a civilian and in military service.
> 
> A ton of quality pistols mentioned on this thread. I do really like the STI guns if price is no object. I have shot 2 of their offerings and it is basically impossible to miss inside 25 yards with their 9mm. I was shooting a 4" steel plate with one at a range exhibition and was almost rapid firing at 25 yards and seriously not missing the plate. That was the STI Tactical.
> 
> Panda or anyone else who is planning to purchase a firearm please get some training and then make sure you practice regularly. Shooting is a skill and requires training to be proficient. Have fun too.


----------



## playero

Wow DOC Department of Commerce with guns? I urge to anyone buying guns to learn about them also. there are NO gun accidents, the gun DOES NOT fire accidentally. there is what is called negligence.


----------



## inferno

Idont actually shoot guns anymore. But i used to be in a club a few years ago. I'm not a very good at target/bullseye but quite good at field shoots. 

Best guns i have used are the: smith PC 1911 hybrid 945 this in an iprovement of the 1911 imo.





i also really really like the PC 952 6 inch god damn that gun is good. It almost shoots itself! really crisp trigger, short throw, long sight base, very light gun at like 1100g, its like a surgical instrument.





i also kinda like the old model 52 in .38WC good plinker.

best revolver i have shot is the old model 19, but the ones i used was fully tricked out with flatmilled 8 inch barrel and a trigger light as a feather and smoth as silk. they had to remove the SA notch because it was too light for comp. I could shoot some groups hole in hole at 15m 5 shots. And i could basically call the shots as they left the barrel lol. real precision instrument. you knew when you F:ed up a good group immediately. and it was all user related unfortunately  I basically have 2 good 5 shot groups in me on a 50 round session. 

But i think the sig x6 and x5 SA single stack ones are right up there (i have small hands) in both precision and quality. It would be a hard choice for me to choose between a SS 952 6 inch and an x6 SS 6 inch. I think these are the best guns ever made. 
I would have probably gotten this one if i continued shooting. 220 x6 in .45, a worthy toy!





I also like the PC 1911 9 mil. this one. you can get very surgical with this one too. shoots like an airgun pretty much. 





I think the worst gun i ever shot was a smith 41. what a POS, wonky grip, totally unreliable no matter it its clean or dirty, sh1tty trigger. generally just a flawed design imo. i think my gamo airgun was better imo. and it cost like 150€. thank god for european 22s!


----------



## Steel+Fire

playero said:


> Wow DOC Department of Commerce with guns? I urge to anyone buying guns to learn about them also. there are NO gun accidents, the gun DOES NOT fire accidentally. there is what is called negligence.



Try a different C word... Corrections. Parole and probation in the community to be exact.


----------



## Nemo

Steel+Fire said:


> Try a different C word... Corrections. Parole and probation in the community to be exact.


I do hope that you are mainly firing for practice rather than in anger!


----------



## playero

i like the Cabots 45


----------



## Noodle Soup

inferno said:


> Idont actually shoot guns anymore. But i used to be in a club a few years ago. I'm not a very good at target/bullseye but quite good at field shoots.
> 
> Best guns i have used are the: smith PC 1911 hybrid 945 this in an iprovement of the 1911 imo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i also really really like the PC 952 6 inch god damn that gun is good. It almost shoots itself! really crisp trigger, short throw, long sight base, very light gun at like 1100g, its like a surgical instrument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i also kinda like the old model 52 in .38WC good plinker.
> 
> best revolver i have shot is the old model 19, but the ones i used was fully tricked out with flatmilled 8 inch barrel and a trigger light as a feather and smoth as silk. they had to remove the SA notch because it was too light for comp. I could shoot some groups hole in hole at 15m 5 shots. And i could basically call the shots as they left the barrel lol. real precision instrument. you knew when you F:ed up a good group immediately. and it was all user related unfortunately  I basically have 2 good 5 shot groups in me on a 50 round session.
> 
> But i think the sig x6 and x5 SA single stack ones are right up there (i have small hands) in both precision and quality. It would be a hard choice for me to choose between a SS 952 6 inch and an x6 SS 6 inch. I think these are the best guns ever made.
> I would have probably gotten this one if i continued shooting. 220 x6 in .45, a worthy toy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also like the PC 1911 9 mil. this one. you can get very surgical with this one too. shoots like an airgun pretty much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the worst gun i ever shot was a smith 41. what a POS, wonky grip, totally unreliable no matter it its clean or dirty, sh1tty trigger. generally just a flawed design imo. i think my gamo airgun was better imo. and it cost like 150€. thank god for european 22s!



Boy! I can disagree with you more about the Smith 41. I shot one competitively out to 100 yards in metallic pistol silhouette for several years and I hunted with the same gun for snowshoe rabbit and grouse (on company time as a forester but that is another story). Won my share of metals and killed I don't know how many birds and rabbits with the gun. It was far better than the average .22 rifle for accuracy if you could do your part. Pure tack driver and I never had any problems with reliability.


----------



## poiuyt

Slightly off topic, but how does one sell a handgun? I can't advertise on ebay or craigslist. I could take it to a sporting goods store that buys them, but I would not get a very good price. What are my other options?


----------



## panda

gunbroker.com ebay for guns


----------



## poiuyt

panda said:


> gunbroker.com ebay for guns



Thanks!


----------



## Nikabrik

Also Armslist, which is Craigslist for guns.


----------



## playero

poiuyt said:


> Slightly off topic, but how does one sell a handgun? I can't advertise on ebay or craigslist. I could take it to a sporting goods store that buys them, but I would not get a very good price. What are my other options?


Guns America and gun brokers their site explain all


----------



## Bert2368

Check the rules at the local gun shows, one can often bring a gun there and do a private sale. 

People walk around our shows with a cased pistol and a sign taped to their back mentioning what they have to sell, or drop a flag in the muzzle of a slung rifle saying "for sale". Plus one can quickly ask several dealers what the value is at such an event, if you're not sure.


----------



## panda




----------



## Gjackson98

My carry


----------



## inferno

heheheh looks like quite a nice toy you have there. god damn.


----------



## inferno

Noodle Soup said:


> Boy! I can disagree with you more about the Smith 41. I shot one competitively out to 100 yards in metallic pistol silhouette for several years and I hunted with the same gun for snowshoe rabbit and grouse (on company time as a forester but that is another story). Won my share of metals and killed I don't know how many birds and rabbits with the gun. It was far better than the average .22 rifle for accuracy if you could do your part. Pure tack driver and I never had any problems with reliability.



yeah i guess its the problem with 22s, one can be good and the next one pure crap, its just luck. The one i used to shoot could never get through a whole mag without something happening, no matter the ammo. really like s&w guns though. the older stuff i posted above is simply as good as it gets imo. especially the 952 6 inch. my oh my...


----------



## Gjackson98

inferno said:


> heheheh looks like quite a nice toy you have there. god damn.



Thank you thank you


----------



## Bert2368

New toy.

6.5 Creedmoor AR10 variant, made by APO in Alexandria MN.

NOT a one handed proposition, weighs nearly 12 lb. unloaded as set up with scope & bipod. Intended for situations where things needing to be shot come to you (or within 500 - 600 yards of you), not walking in the woods.

Got half way through barrel break in yesterday, before the mirage set in and it got too windy I did mannage some sub 1" groups at 100 and sub 2" at 200 yards with the Hornady cheapo "Black" ammo.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Anyone out there have experience with the STI 2011 9mm platforms? I'm looking at the Staccato and DVC models and would love feedback if anyone has any. I've long been a 1911 .45acp guy but am coming around to the benefit of a 20+ capacity 9mm for competition/tactical purposes, as well as EDC.


----------



## Travis petosa

I HAD a tactical 4.0 9mm. If you like 1911’s you’ll like the DVC. I went to the launch day for the staccato P and staccato C at my local gun range. Great guns. I just don’t like 1911’s. Would definitely recommend anything sti though. Fit and finish are the best non complete custom you can get in a 1911/2011 on the market. 

My old tactical 4.0 for reference.


----------



## inferno

Bert2368 said:


> New toy.
> 
> 6.5 Creedmoor AR10 variant, made by APO in Alexandria MN.
> 
> NOT a one handed proposition, weighs nearly 12 lb. unloaded as set up with scope & bipod. Intended for situations where things needing to be shot come to you (or within 500 - 600 yards of you), not walking in the woods.
> 
> Got half way through barrel break in yesterday, before the mirage set in and it got too windy I did mannage some sub 1" groups at 100 and sub 2" at 200 yards with the Hornady cheapo "Black" ammo.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 61164
> 
> 
> View attachment 61161
> 
> 
> View attachment 61162
> 
> 
> View attachment 61163



one thing i have always wondered is why no one made an auto in 6,5x55 swede (except the old ljungman). it does all that the new 6,5's does and more (bigger case capacity), and its cheap. and if you want a short one why not go 6,5 lapua?

the x55 is good for 12-1300m or so around here with 139gr scenars and bergers, or so i've heard. there has been a real 6,5 craze these last years i guess. 

anyway nice bangstick.


----------



## inferno

thebradleycrew said:


> Anyone out there have experience with the STI 2011 9mm platforms? I'm looking at the Staccato and DVC models and would love feedback if anyone has any. I've long been a 1911 .45acp guy but am coming around to the benefit of a 20+ capacity 9mm for competition/tactical purposes, as well as EDC.



gonna edc a double stack 1911  i've only handled like 3 of them a para ordnance build and a SVI (both open guns) in "9mm major" (same powerfactor as 38 super) and an STI edge in .40 though, to make major in some class, they are quite blocky if you have small hands imo. If i was not getting an SVI i would get some STI model. I think they have the market cornered for double stack 1911s, and they have been doing it for a long tiime so they know how to make them work. you might still have to sand and file on them to make them feed you specific ammo (oal is important to make them work).


----------



## thebradleycrew

Travis petosa said:


> I HAD a tactical 4.0 9mm. If you like 1911’s you’ll like the DVC. I went to the launch day for the staccato P and staccato C at my local gun range. Great guns. I just don’t like 1911’s. Would definitely recommend anything sti though. Fit and finish are the best non complete custom you can get in a 1911/2011 on the market.
> 
> My old tactical 4.0 for reference.


Thanks for the feedback! I love the look of that two-tone 2011. I continue to hear good things about STI builds. I have three Les Baer 1911's and absolutely swear by the quality/price ratio there. They don't make a 9mm tactical (just a smaller EDC) otherwise I'd try them out. I'm just really interested in a gun that can shoot tactical and comp.


----------



## inferno

I think the edge is one of the best competition guns they make. but its heavy since its long dust cover. I saw some thread a few months ago that they now put _some_ MIM parts in them (instead of billet/cast/forged) that might break sometime.


----------



## thebradleycrew

inferno said:


> I think the edge is one of the best competition guns they make. but its heavy since its long dust cover. I saw some thread a few months ago that they now put _some_ MIM parts in them (instead of billet/cast/forged) that might break sometime.


Ugh, if they start putting MIM parts I'd be bummed. I'm on a "wait list" for the Combat Master. That better not have MIM in it!


----------



## Travis petosa

thebradleycrew said:


> Thanks for the feedback! I love the look of that two-tone 2011. I continue to hear good things about STI builds. I have three Les Baer 1911's and absolutely swear by the quality/price ratio there. They don't make a 9mm tactical (just a smaller EDC) otherwise I'd try them out. I'm just really interested in a gun that can shoot tactical and comp.



Having handled and shot most of their lineup (including the combat master) I would honestly recommend the
https://stiguns.com/product-lineup/dvc-3/

It's not going to break the bank and it shoots almost identically to the combat master. Now if you are wanting something to just run 3gun then this probably isn't the best (although could work, i've seen guys running these at local competitions). 
IMO I would honestly recommend something more like this 
https://triarcsystems.com/product/triarc-tri-11-double-stack-government-frame/

If I was going to buy another 2011, the commander frame of the triarc systems is what I would personally get. Step up on the fit and finish, and just a little nicer overall. Not saying the STI's aren't amazingly nice, the triarc's are just a little bit of a steup up. More of a custom hand fitted feel than the STI's.


----------



## thebradleycrew

I love that DVC-3 and actually I was thinking of getting that instead of the Combat Master because I felt like the Combat Master was priced up to account for the "Wick" effect. I don't want something just for 3-gun. Ideally it would serve as a full-sized carry/bedside/3-gun gun. I've never heard of Triarc, thanks for the tip there. Will check them out.


----------



## panda

originally wanted a les baer as my next gun, but my sti 1911 keeping me plenty happy. will look into a cz75 single action with a trigger job in the future.


----------



## thebradleycrew

panda said:


> originally wanted a les baer as my next gun, but my sti 1911 keeping me plenty happy. will look into a cz75 single action with a trigger job in the future.


I can whole-heartedly recommend the Baer guns (any). They are A+ work. Glad to hear you like the STI and it's keeping you happy!


----------



## panda

thebradleycrew said:


> I can whole-heartedly recommend the Baer guns (any). They are A+ work. Glad to hear you like the STI and it's keeping you happy!


yea it's finally broken in, the previous owner barely used it. ive put just over 3000 rounds through it now.


----------



## Bert2368

inferno said:


> one thing i have always wondered is why no one made an auto in 6,5x55 swede (except the old ljungman). it does all that the new 6,5's does and more (bigger case capacity), and its cheap. and if you want a short one why not go 6,5 lapua?
> 
> the x55 is good for 12-1300m or so around here with 139gr scenars and bergers, or so i've heard. there has been a real 6,5 craze these last years i guess.
> 
> anyway nice bangstick.



AR10 variants are MOSTLY built as "SHORT actions", same max Over All Length (of cartridge) as 7.62NATO/.308 Win. Which SAAMI says is 2.800". Max OAL for the 6.5x55 Swede is 3.105". Which calls for a LONG action...

There are a fair number of mega AR variants out there, I've seen and handled ones chambered for 300 Win Mag and seen documented even crazier chamberings such as .416 CheyTac, these things DO exist. But you can't use a standard AR10 mag, they are standardized at 2.88" internal max OAL-

Everything is totally custom & it gets really expensive for the "long action" AR variants.

I would LOVE to have a 6.5x55 Ackley Improved AR10 variant, or a 6.5-06... but could never afford to buy one. So, I limp along with a 6.5-284 NORMA Savage 111 and dream of being rich & famous.

I DO have a CZ 550 rifle in 6.5x55 Swede, shown next to the new toy in this pic:






And I've got a Carl Gustaf M96 milsurp in 6.5x55 too, which came with match diopter iron sights, a nice old war horse.


----------



## Steel+Fire

panda said:


> originally wanted a les baer as my next gun, but my sti 1911 keeping me plenty happy. will look into a cz75 single action with a trigger job in the future.



I have been looking at the STI line for the last 2 years. Shot their wares at the Triggercon VIP last year. My buddy bought an EVO for his duty gun just because of that experience. Their concealed carry gun the Staccoto-C is single stack and has the same ammo capacity of my current off duty carry which is a M&P Shield. I really want something like the DVC-C but man that price is steep.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Steel+Fire said:


> I have been looking at the STI line for the last 2 years. Shot their wares at the Triggercon VIP last year. My buddy bought an EVO for his duty gun just because of that experience. Their concealed carry gun the Staccoto-C is single stack and has the same ammo capacity of my current off duty carry which is a M&P Shield. I really want something like the DVC-C but man that price is steep.


They aren't cheap, but I don't think they are more expensive that any other custom 1911-style gun. I have a Nighthawk Dominator that was $3,500 or something similar and it's a great gun, but my $2,500 Les Baer Thunder Ranch and SRP pistols are better at $1k less, in my view. I am hoping that the STI's are for 9mm what I think the Les Baer's are for .45.


----------



## inferno

also wilson and ed brown makes top notch ones. 

I have shot the 9mm s&w 1911 ones from the pc and they are nice imo. probably filled with mim but they are so cheap comparatively so you can swap these parts out anyway. 
and they are sexy.


----------



## Travis petosa

thebradleycrew said:


> They aren't cheap, but I don't think they are more expensive that any other custom 1911-style gun. I have a Nighthawk Dominator that was $3,500 or something similar and it's a great gun, but my $2,500 Les Baer Thunder Ranch and SRP pistols are better at $1k less, in my view. I am hoping that the STI's are for 9mm what I think the Les Baer's are for .45.



Definitely not going to feel like a traditional 1911 especially a night hawk. Remember the STI’s are a polymer lower frame on a steel rail section and upper. The grip module definitely feels like a polymer gun.


----------



## Steel+Fire

Travis petosa said:


> Definitely not going to feel like a traditional 1911 especially a night hawk. Remember the STI’s are a polymer lower frame on a steel rail section and upper. The grip module definitely feels like a polymer gun.


I think the current STI line up advertises having aluminum frames. That said the cost is on the steep side not in light of comparison to other custom/semi custom 1911's as much as I plan to carry it daily. I have to find balance between getting a super accurate and reliable gun and not spending so much that I am worried if it is locked up in an evidence locker for a couple years if God forbid I use it in self defense. I am not much of a collector. I use what I buy and generally beat the crap out of it.


----------



## panda

i dont have one of the 2011 sti's, mine is an actual 1911, full metal construction, the trojan model chambered in 9mm. i chose 9mm cause rounds are way cheaper and i want to shoot a lot.


----------



## Travis petosa

The 1911’s are full steel but the 2011’s have a polymer grip module. The staccato-c has an aluminum grip module with a polymer overmould. You can order different grip modules from them for all of the commander and full size 2011’s. They feel really nice in hand and are very sturdy. Definitely feels like polymer though. 

I’m not sure I can think of a company with a straight up full steel or aluminum grip module on a 2011.


----------



## inferno

panda said:


> i dont have one of the 2011 sti's, mine is an actual 1911, full metal construction, the trojan model chambered in 9mm. i chose 9mm cause rounds are way cheaper and i want to shoot a lot.



the whole **** was designed as a system though. frame/slide/round/mag, and 9mm had not yet been invented. but 45acp had. so these systems work good with 45acp, and less good with 9mm. i have never noticed a difference though. but thats the history.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Travis petosa said:


> The 1911’s are full steel but the 2011’s have a polymer grip module. The staccato-c has an aluminum grip module with a polymer overmould. You can order different grip modules from them for all of the commander and full size 2011’s. They feel really nice in hand and are very sturdy. Definitely feels like polymer though.
> 
> I’m not sure I can think of a company with a straight up full steel or aluminum grip module on a 2011.


Good info, Travis. I didn't know they had an aluminum, module with polymer overlay. That's great. I'm sure it's a weight issue - full aluminum or steel as on a 1911, but in double stack, would make a 45oz gun unloaded. No recoil whatsoever, but you'd have to have move to a low ready after every shot because it'd feel like lifting weights.


----------



## Travis petosa

Ya, from what the rep told me is that they did it to save weight on the full size guns. Fully loaded though my Glock 17 only weighed 3oz less than the staccato-p.


----------



## panda

new agenda, i want to swap out the sights on my 1911. currently has adjustable black rear and thin fiber optic red front. ive come to realization i shoot better with a 3 dot sight because i was shooting more accurately with my buddy's HK with tritium sights which should not be the case lol. i am considering ed brown fixed rear and gold bead front. https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p...sight-prod70884.aspx?avs|Make_3=1911&psize=96
https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p...d-front-sight-prod109174.aspx?avs|Make_3=1911

any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.


----------



## thebradleycrew

panda said:


> new agenda, i want to swap out the sights on my 1911. currently has adjustable black rear and thin fiber optic red front. ive come to realization i shoot better with a 3 dot sight because i was shooting more accurately with my buddy's HK with tritium sights which should not be the case lol. i am considering ed brown fixed rear and gold bead front. https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p...sight-prod70884.aspx?avs|Make_3=1911&psize=96
> https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p...d-front-sight-prod109174.aspx?avs|Make_3=1911
> 
> any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.


Honestly, if you are going to swap out the sights, you should consider having the slide milled out for a red dot. I like the Leupold Delta Point Pro and Trijicon RMR. Depends on what you are using it for, but in nearly all cases you'll find faster target acquisition. You are starting to see concealed carry holsters to support red dots on carry guns and my next upgrade will be to mill my custom 1911 for a red dot.


----------



## Barmoley

I like heinie all black rear or single center dot. Would probably go gold for front and all black rear .156 width notch if you want quick .140 if you want more precision. This is if you like square notch. If you like U notch, Wilson combat u notch .156 or 10-8 performance .140 or .156. it depends on the type of shooting you are doing. The narrower rear sight will be more precise, but slower. With pistols I prefer speed, I also don't like 2 dots on the rear sight because they are distracting to me. You are supposed to concentrate on the front sight so anything that is distracting on the rear bugs me. Everyone is different though, so depends on you eyes and preference.


----------



## Barmoley

thebradleycrew said:


> Honestly, if you are going to swap out the sights, you should consider having the slide milled out for a red dot. I like the Leupold Delta Point Pro and Trijicon RMR. Depends on what you are using it for, but in nearly all cases you'll find faster target acquisition. You are starting to see concealed carry holsters to support red dots on carry guns and my next upgrade will be to mill my custom 1911 for a red dot.


Excellent idea but a lot more money. 1911s have relatively narrow slides so shield RMSc and SMSc work well.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Barmoley said:


> Excellent idea but a lot more money. 1911s have relatively narrow slides so shield RMSc and SMSc work well.


Who said anything about a budget?


----------



## Barmoley

thebradleycrew said:


> Who said anything about a budget?


True. I apologise, I am just concerned that @panda will spend all his money on sights and won't be able to buy knives. I presume too much, not my place, I'll be in the corner of anyone needs me.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Barmoley said:


> True. I apologise, I am just concerned that @panda will spend all his money on sights and won't be able to buy knives. I presume too much, not my place, I'll be in the corner of anyone needs me.


It's a fair concern. When one has to decide between expensive knives and expensive guns, life gets confusing.


----------



## panda

i really dont like rmr, iron sights only.

so all black rear got it, but for the notch, i want a balance of speed and precision, is there a middle ground? i prefer square over u-notch

i'm good on knives for now, haha.


is there a difference between the wilson combat and ed brown front gold bead sight?


----------



## Barmoley

.140 is the mid ground. .125 narrow, .156 wide. That’s for .125 wide front on 5” slide. If the front is wider you need a wider rear notch. Ed Brown I think is .125, Wilson combat I believe is wider and has a few widths. You also need to make sure the rear and front are of compatible height or you will shoot high or low. Are you installing these yourself or a smith is doing it for you? Some 1911 are not easy as they have blind roll pins in the front sight and the cut outs in the slide have to be compatible with the sights or the slide needs to be milled for the new sights.


----------



## Steel+Fire

I like the Trijicon HD 3 dots. The front site is really easy to catch in daylight. Standard night sights YMMV otherwise. Tough as nails so if you actually train and run your guns hard they hold up for years of tough use. If you go red dot Triji RMR is the only real deal. Others are good for target shooting but may not hold up to much abuse.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Steel+Fire said:


> I like the Trijicon HD 3 dots. The front site is really easy to catch in daylight. Standard night sights YMMV otherwise. Tough as nails so if you actually train and run your guns hard they hold up for years of tough use. If you go red dot Triji RMR is the only real deal. Others are good for target shooting but may not hold up to much abuse.


Curious as to why you think the RMR is the only real deal? Have you used the Deltapoint Pro? (IMO) it is right up there with the RMR in terms of robust performance.


----------



## Barmoley

thebradleycrew said:


> Curious as to why you think the RMR is the only real deal? Have you used the Deltapoint Pro? (IMO) it is right up there with the RMR in terms of robust performance.


There are a bunch that are good...


----------



## Barmoley

So @panda what have you decided to go with?


----------



## HSC /// Knives

oh wow, fun thread


----------



## Barmoley

HSC /// Knives said:


> oh wow, fun thread


These are really cool. Great condition too. They are expensive these days.


----------



## Kgp

Here is my newest acquistion - Ljutic Space Gun! Found it at a local gun show last week and couldn't pass it up. 
Ken


----------



## Kgp

HSC /// Knives said:


> oh wow, fun thread


I’ve got one in nickel that I picked up before prices went wild. One of my favorites!
Ken


----------



## panda

i'm leaning toward the wilson combat square rear sight and gold bead front


----------



## boomchakabowwow

i just drove across the country. i filled my truck with a myriad of CCI .22LR ammo. 

go time!!


----------



## tkern

Anyone try a Taurus Spectrum?


----------



## Steel+Fire

thebradleycrew said:


> Curious as to why you think the RMR is the only real deal? Have you used the Deltapoint Pro? (IMO) it is right up there with the RMR in terms of robust performance.



Mostly because I have operated overseas and beat the crap out of Trijicon products in operational environments along with working in LE for the past decade using their pistol sights. Trijicon has a solid line up of products that have a demonstrated ability of holding up to real world abuse. I would bet that the Deltapoint is a perfectly acceptable alternative as Leupold has a rock solid rep for making weapons sights as well. RMR is the industry standard at the moment and most LE agencies that are moving to red dots are using it.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Steel+Fire said:


> Mostly because I have operated overseas and beat the crap out of Trijicon products in operational environments along with working in LE for the past decade using their pistol sights. Trijicon has a solid line up of products that have a demonstrated ability of holding up to real world abuse. I would bet that the Deltapoint is a perfectly acceptable alternative as Leupold has a rock solid rep for making weapons sights as well. RMR is the industry standard at the moment and most LE agencies that are moving to red dots are using it.


Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed reply. Hugely helpful to hear from someone who has used it for its primary intended purpose. Thank you for your service!


----------



## Steel+Fire

thebradleycrew said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed reply. Hugely helpful to hear from someone who has used it for its primary intended purpose. Thank you for your service!


I have limited experience using the RMR as I have only recently upgraded to an RMR cut slide and slapped one on my own G17. That said I am a firearms instructor with a state DOC so I have used them a bit on the range and have spoken with a lot of LEO and Feds qwho use them. Reports are that they make marginal shooters better and are more intuative to new shooters especially our younger generation who have grown up playing FPS on game consoles and computers. I am also told they make experienced shooters faster. I am looking forward to running the crap out of mine in the next few months.


----------



## playero

HSC /// Knives said:


> oh wow, fun thread



Best gun available


----------



## playero

at the moment


----------



## Kgp

Just picked up a CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical
Ken


----------



## LuvDog

The SP01 is the only CZ I’ve sold... and I wish I had it back. I’ll get another someday.


----------



## Kgp

LuvDog said:


> The SP01 is the only CZ I’ve sold... and I wish I had it back. I’ll get another someday.


It’s my first CZ. Seems to be well made and anyone I know who has one loves them.


----------



## LuvDog

I’m a CZ fan.. a couple of Shadow 2’s, a coupe of SP01 Shadow 1’s, some compacts and surplus guns too. All high quality and great shooters


----------



## panda

Kgp said:


> Just picked up a CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical
> Ken
> View attachment 73382


i REALLY want a CZ shadow target
rented a sp-01 one time and freaking loved it.


----------



## tkern

I picked up a Ruger ec9s last week. Fits my hand with the mag extension and my wife's quite smaller hand. Being my first handgun I figured go with a reliable brand that's inexpensive. 
I asked the salesman what ammunition he recommends and he was very excited about the silicone tipped Hornady ftx. Made sure I knew they would penetrate thick winter clothes. Sure, I'll pick up target shooting rounds another time. For now I have a $200 gun and a couple boxes of "make someone's insides disintegrate" bullets.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Made it to the range yesterday. Shot three guns. 
1. Springfield TRP Operator 1911, .45
2. Full Custom Apex Tactical 1911, .45
3. HK VP9SK

All great guns. But, you can tell which gun is a $4k gun and which ones aren't (somewhat expected). The VP9SK is a good small carry gun but has a lot of frame flex - you have to be careful not to limp wrist it. The TRP is just a workhorse and (IMO) the best sub $1,500 1911 you can buy.


----------



## inferno

not a cz fan myself. it feels like triggerpull is like 5 miles long if you are used to 1911s. 

also regarding front sight width. all i know is that you want some air/light sh8inging through between the back and front when lined up so you can see whats going on around the front sight. you dont want a black wall. then these can be very fast too imo. i guess its a preference though. but i have never liked the all blacked out sight picture. 

also ghost rings! they can be good and fast if you want irons. best bet imo is to get a glowing front fiber, that makes everything like 10 times faster. also make that fiber get stuck in the hole with a soldering iron so you dont lose it. beause usually they can easily get lost. just melt the front and the back a little. then its wont go anywhere.


----------



## Kgp

I agree that the CZ trigger is not as good as a typical 1911. I’ve got two STI’s, two Kimbers, and a Springfield. Didn’t need the CZ but got a great buy on a like new used one so I thought I’d give it a try. I also picked up a Hudson over the weekend. Sort of a hybrid 1911, striker fired. Interesting gun but company went under last year. Can’t have too many, sort of like knives!
Ken


----------



## panda

i want white dot rear and gold bead front


----------



## inferno

gold beads are quite nice and fast


----------



## Noodle Soup

My toy is a Glock 43X with tritium sights. Shoot it better than my older Glock 26 so I maybe selling the 26 in the future.


----------



## Gjackson98

Anyone here shooting competition? What pistol are you using for competition?


----------



## panda

If I did I'd want to use this


----------



## LuvDog

I’m shooting my CZ Shadow 2 that’s been milled for a red dot in USPSA carry optics.


----------



## playero

STI


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Just bought a Mark IV ill take out next. Gotta try out my .308 AR rifle too.


----------



## Cloudsmoker

panda said:


> new agenda, i want to swap out the sights on my 1911. currently has adjustable black rear and thin fiber optic red front. ive come to realization i shoot better with a 3 dot sight because i was shooting more accurately with my buddy's HK with tritium sights which should not be the case lol. i am considering ed brown fixed rear and gold bead front. https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p...sight-prod70884.aspx?avs|Make_3=1911&psize=96
> https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p...d-front-sight-prod109174.aspx?avs|Make_3=1911
> 
> any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.


Not sure you got an answer to your question. The Ed Brown sights are good value, but their gold bead is not quite as bright as the Wilson Combat, which is more $. I do like the WC Battlesights for the rear. I work on 1911’s and tend to buy directly from NovakSights.com, as old Wayne was the source for a lot of the modern dovetail designs. Their gold beads are solid and you can spec out the exact height, etc. If you’re looking for an edgier gold bead, I find the Ted Yost sights, which John Harrison sells, to be outstanding for sight acquisition, particularly for old eyes.


----------



## panda

would a gunsmith be able to fit a battlesight onto my STI even though it's cut for bomar style? and same for the front wilson gold bead. how do i know what the correct size to order is??


----------



## Cloudsmoker

I don’t have a lot of experience on STI, but I’m pretty sure their front sight is a Heine dovetail. If that’s the case, Yes on the front as a .300” Heine dovetail can be widened to a .330 Novak. However, I believe some Wilson Combat front sights are Heine dovetails, so your first option might be the best and simplest way to go. 

As for rear sights, not so much. The Bomar cut is narrower (and, of course, it’s always easier to remove metal than to add it back), but I believe the back end of the sight is cut out as well- so you’d have an ugly gap at the rear of the slide. Before you went down any road like that, I’d give STI a call and tell them what you’re trying to do. They’ve got some really good folks in their custom shop. Particularly since I’m not at home, I’m faking some of my answers, but their smiths could answer straight off the top of their heads.


----------



## willic

The Delta Elite has been getting a bunch of my attention recently... I've considered putting modern style sights on her...


----------



## Cloudsmoker

willic said:


> The Delta Elite has been getting a bunch of my attention recently... I've considered putting modern style sights on her...


Good call. You’d need to fill in the hole where the current front sight is staked. My suggestion would be to decide if there’s anything else you want to do, particularly to the slide, and get it done all at once.


----------



## willic

Would the front dovetail not go right over the hole and cover it?


----------



## Cloudsmoker

willic said:


> Would the front dovetail not go right over the hole and cover it?


Yes ... ish. If you look down the front of the disassembled slide, it might feel like a hack. If you’re going to re-blue the slide after machining, might as well just fill in the hole with a TIG weld. If you’re going to go Rambo, then sure - it wouldn’t impair the functionality.


----------



## willic

GOOD point!


----------



## panda

i sent an email to STI, hopefully they will offer to do the work if i send them the parts and the slide!


----------



## Gjackson98

Any lefty here using STI? What do you do with slide release?


----------



## panda

so sti told me to contact dawson precision. dawson said they will do the work but to call them first to discuss how the gun shoots for me. yay!!

@Cloudsmoker sti told me my front sight is a height of .180 is it safe to assume i should order the wilson gold bead in .180 as well? or is switching from adjustable bomar to wilson battlesight going to alter things a bit?


----------



## Cloudsmoker

panda said:


> so sti told me to contact dawson precision. dawson said they will do the work but to call them first to discuss how the gun shoots for me. yay!!
> 
> @Cloudsmoker sti told me my front sight is a height of .180 is it safe to assume i should order the wilson gold bead in .180 as well? or is switching from adjustable bomar to wilson battlesight going to alter things a bit?


----------



## Cloudsmoker

Well, first of all, Dawson is solid. I learned a lot about sight work from watching Dave’s videos, and they’re known for adapting their replacement sights to different dovetails and dimensions. Plus, they’re just a stone’s throw from STI, both north of Austin. 

Secondly, as the guys at STI asked, how does it shoot? Are you happy with your vertical groupings? If so, yeah the WC .180” (which btw is the most standard spec) is all you need. If your groupings are high, consider a shorter sight, etc,. Generally speaking, within reason of course, the rear sight is not going to affect your location - it’s more about sight acquisition. For me, the rear sight is all about giving you a sight picture that you like, can acquire quickly and are comfortable focusing on the front sight as the target or sight picture moves. There’s generally a small trade off between location accuracy and sight acquisition speed (for self defense, think larger cutout - for accuracy shooting, maybe smaller). Again, switching from a Bomar to a Novak style cutout sounds like a problem, but the Dawson folks can talk you through that. And if you’re primarily thinking function over form, there are excellent rear sights with cutouts similar to the WC Battlesight that come with a Bomar cutout configuration. 

Alternatively, bring your slide down to Dallas. Heck, the airports gotta be empty these days. I’ll put some meat on the smoker and well have time to swap out your sights, and sharpen some knives, before dinner. And, seriously, happy to get on a call with you and/or Dawson Precision if I can be of assistance.


----------



## Cloudsmoker

Gjackson98 said:


> Any lefty here using STI? What do you do with slide release?[/QUOTE
> Use your left thumb? An ambi safety is an easy upgrade, but to switch out the slide release requires a different frame.


----------



## panda

would this one be a drop in rear? https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/hd-001-t2-extreme-service-rear-sight


----------



## Gjackson98

I have been a Glock Gen 5 guy for a while, tried a STI 2011 the other day, love the trigger however no slide release on the right side of the gun (so left thumb don’t work) I want to see if there is any possible upgrade options out on the market that I can swap out for.


----------



## Cloudsmoker

panda said:


> would this one be a drop in rear? https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/hd-001-t2-extreme-service-rear-sight


I believe so. FWIW, Harrison’s parts are top notch - little pricey, but very well made. Candidly, I think you’ll be happier just upgrading the quality of the sights vs. re-machining the cutouts. And while it’s personal preference, I’d be very happy with the WC/Harrison combo.


----------



## panda

so harrison rear and wilson front, seems to be sorted out and dawson will do the work. thanks for your help!! and if im ever in dallas i will hit you up.


----------



## Cloudsmoker

panda said:


> so harrison rear and wilson front, seems to be sorted out and dawson will do the work. thanks for your help!! and if im ever in dallas i will hit you up.


I hope you will. With apologies for beating a dead horse, you could also buy the WC front sight and ship it and your slide to John Harrison to install. John is an elite gun builder who’s particularly manic in his approach to centering the sights on the slide relative to the barrel (vs exterior slide) position. If he’s available to turn it around, it might save you at least one shipping charge. Stay safe.


----------



## Travis petosa

Welp, I just ponied up and bought the new staccato XC. Haven’t had a chance to shoot it yet. I was a little hesitant to get another sti after getting rid of my two tactical’s. Glad I did though. Fit and finish is still top notch on them. Range report as soon as my local outdoor range is opened back up.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Travis petosa said:


> Welp, I just ponied up and bought the new staccato XC. Haven’t had a chance to shoot it yet. I was a little hesitant to get another sti after getting rid of my two tactical’s. Glad I did though. Fit and finish is still top notch on them. Range report as soon as my local outdoor range is opened back up.


Oh YES! That is awesome, I'm so excited to hear about it. I was going to go look at an XC this week or next. I need a report by then! For $4k, I hope that it is a super gun. Curious as to whether you think it is more tactical or 3-gun oriented. Did you put optics on it?


----------



## Travis petosa

It’s definitely not 3gun oriented just from the feel of it. Definitely more of a staccato P carry on steroids. Trigger is definitely more geared towards carry, I would say it’s a good 3-3.5lbs. Super clean like you’d expect but it’s heavier than their 3 gun triggers. 

I will be putting a Leupold DPP on it when it comes in, in the next few days.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Travis petosa said:


> It’s definitely not 3gun oriented just from the feel of it. Definitely more of a staccato P carry on steroids. Trigger is definitely more geared towards carry, I would say it’s a good 3-3.5lbs. Super clean like you’d expect but it’s heavier than their 3 gun triggers.
> 
> I will be putting a Leupold DPP on it when it comes in, in the next few days.


Awsome. I was hoping it didn't have the old DVC-3 trigger at 2.5lbs. That's too light for most regular shooting in my view, particularly tactical work. I love the DPP, so can't wait to hear about how you like it. The gun looks like a boss. Post photos when you can.


----------



## Travis petosa

Here’s some pics right out the box. Comes with 3x 21rd mags. It’s the least they can do with the price tag lol.


----------



## Kgp

Very nice! I have two STI’s, both in 9mm, a chrome Trojan and a DVC Limited. Quality has been top notch. Both of the slides feel like they are on roller bearings. I’ve owned a dozen 1911’s and never had any as smooth. Wished my skill matched their capability.

Ken


----------



## thebradleycrew

Travis petosa said:


> Here’s some pics right out the box. Comes with 3x 21rd mags. It’s the least they can do with the price tag lol.


That is just awesome. Can't wait for the feedback on shooting it. I bet it kicks about as much as a .22.


----------



## Travis petosa

Welp, I was able to sneak off with a buddy out to his property today and give it a quick run through its paces. Even though I’m still running irons right now it’s accurate AF. It will far outshoot my abilities but I feel that it’s more accurate than my past sti’s. 

Recoil. What recoil? You can really tell the comp is doing it’s job. It doesn’t feel like a 22 but it definitely sits flat. 

Trigger is what you’d expect from a 1911/2011. The best. Reset was a little hard to find in the beginning, it’s definitely less audible than my tacticals. After about 20rds you get used to it though. 

lockup with the comp is interesting. When it’s in battery, racking the slide takes quite a bit of effort due to how the comp locks up with the slide. Maybe it will break in and become a little bit easier to manipulate? I’ll have to report back on that.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Travis petosa said:


> Welp, I was able to sneak off with a buddy out to his property today and give it a quick run through its paces. Even though I’m still running irons right now it’s accurate AF. It will far outshoot my abilities but I feel that it’s more accurate than my past sti’s.
> 
> Recoil. What recoil? You can really tell the comp is doing it’s job. It doesn’t feel like a 22 but it definitely sits flat.
> 
> Trigger is what you’d expect from a 1911/2011. The best. Reset was a little hard to find in the beginning, it’s definitely less audible than my tacticals. After about 20rds you get used to it though.
> 
> lockup with the comp is interesting. When it’s in battery, racking the slide takes quite a bit of effort due to how the comp locks up with the slide. Maybe it will break in and become a little bit easier to manipulate? I’ll have to report back on that.


Awesome feedback. Thanks. Will be curious on the lockup too. It's not just a stiff recoil spring or could that be the culprit? I suspect if it is a recoil spring thing, it will lessen with time. That said, I don't know how tight those are out of the box. My Les Baer's are ridiculously tight out of the box. Until 500-1000 rounds, they are tough to manipulate.


----------



## Travis petosa

The recoil spring definitely isn’t super stiff. The action is very smooth and easy once it’s out of lockup. We’ll see. I only put around 400 through it today.


----------



## panda

Kgp said:


> View attachment 74555
> Very nice! I have two STI’s, both in 9mm, a chrome Trojan and a DVC Limited. Quality has been top notch. Both of the slides feel like they are on roller bearings. I’ve owned a dozen 1911’s and never had any as smooth. Wished my skill matched their capability.
> 
> Ken


i have a trojan also, quick question do you know if this will work on it or is it only for 2011 models? https://dawsonprecision.com/mag-release-button-1911-oversized-with-4-40-threads-by-sti/ i currently use a wilson extended mag release which is tapped. but i dont know if the thread pattern matches.


----------



## Kgp

panda said:


> i have a trojan also, quick question do you know if this will work on it or is it only for 2011 models? https://dawsonprecision.com/mag-release-button-1911-oversized-with-4-40-threads-by-sti/ i currently use a wilson extended mag release which is tapped. but i dont know if the thread pattern matches.


Not sure but I’m sure they could tell you. They are extremely knowledgeable about STI guns. Give them a call on Monday. I bought the magwell on the Trojan from them and other 1911 parts for other guns. Always been very helpful.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

i just got a call from Glock. they have my handgun slide.. i sent it in for the factory night sights. only $67!! plus the coin to ship to them. i cannot wait to get it back and take it to some shoot. 

glock factory service are some friendly folks. very responsive. 

my retired boss is planning a social distancing shooting contest.


----------



## TheNewMexican

Journey started with paying $.25 for a used "Cartridges of the World" at a neighbors garage sale when I was like 5 or 6. Pretty much memorized it cover to cover by the age of 10.

Got to a point in my late 20's where I couldn't buy the firearms that I dreamed of in my head. So I started building my own. Had worked my way through college at a machine shop with some grouchy and cagey machinists which helped a lot. First build was a 35 Whelen on a Remington 700 action. Took it to Maine and had a really nice bear hunt. Assembling M1A's followed suit, long range rifles on custom actions, tuning CZ 75b's, action jobs on Smith and Wessons, tuning 1911's, etc.

I've gotten to a point where I'm considering scratch building actions. The artisan in me wants to leave something behind that outlasts the corporal and my memory. Something that feels good in the hand and makes a person wonder about the maker. 

Favorites at this time are a S&W 18-4 in .22 long rifle. Perfect for putting in my jacket pocket when I take a walk. Favorite rifle is another self build based on a R700 action, Claro Walnut stock with a Krieger barrel in .308. Topped with a Leupold, it does everything I need it to do. 

My grandfather made it through life with a .22 rifle, 94 winchester in 30-30 and a 38 revolver. I feel like a glutton sometimes but it's my burden I guess...........


----------



## Kgp

TheNewMexican said:


> Journey started with paying $.25 for a used "Cartridges of the World" at a neighbors garage sale when I was like 5 or 6. Pretty much memorized it cover to cover by the age of 10.
> 
> Got to a point in my late 20's where I couldn't buy the firearms that I dreamed of in my head. So I started building my own. Had worked my way through college at a machine shop with some grouchy and cagey machinists which helped a lot. First build was a 35 Whelen on a Remington 700 action. Took it to Maine and had a really nice bear hunt. Assembling M1A's followed suit, long range rifles on custom actions, tuning CZ 75b's, action jobs on Smith and Wessons, tuning 1911's, etc.
> 
> I've gotten to a point where I'm considering scratch building actions. The artisan in me wants to leave something behind that outlasts the corporal and my memory. Something that feels good in the hand and makes a person wonder about the maker.
> 
> Favorites at this time are a S&W 18-4 in .22 long rifle. Perfect for putting in my jacket pocket when I take a walk. Favorite rifle is another self build based on a R700 action, Claro Walnut stock with a Krieger barrel in .308. Topped with a Leupold, it does everything I need it to do.
> 
> My grandfather made it through life with a .22 rifle, 94 winchester in 30-30 and a 38 revolver. I feel like a glutton sometimes but it's my burden I guess...........


If you haven't read John Browning's biography, you should. His journey is a great story.

I don't have the skill or the tools, but I have a checkbook. Here's the only "custom" I own. Pre-64 Winchester .270 built by Dennis Olson from Montana. I've also got a few Coopers.


----------



## LuvDog

That wood is gorgeous


----------



## panda

LuvDog said:


> That wood is gorgeous


that's what she said


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

Been on a 9mm kick recently, B&T APC9 Pro is now my favorite sub gun even more than my MP5


----------



## boomchakabowwow

Kgp said:


> If you haven't read John Browning's biography, you should. His journey is a great story.
> 
> I don't have the skill or the tools, but I have a checkbook. Here's the only "custom" I own. Pre-64 Winchester .270 built by Dennis Olson from Montana. I've also got a few Coopers.
> 
> View attachment 78996
> View attachment 78996
> View attachment 78997
> View attachment 78998
> View attachment 78999
> View attachment 79000
> View attachment 79001
> View attachment 79002


Beautiful. 
im too rough on rifles. I fell off a small shale ledge with a brand new weatherby 257. Took care of the “new gun look” immediately. My hunts are pretty heinous. I’ve used a rifle to push thru brush.


----------



## thebradleycrew

HalfBloodHobbit said:


> Been on a 9mm kick recently, B&T APC9 Pro is now my favorite sub gun even more than my MP5


Wow, that photo. Insane. Curious why/what you like about the APC9 over the MP5. Also, and perhaps more importantly, look at the hardware in that box. I see RMRs, comp guns, a SRO, among other things. Do show!


----------



## Kgp

boomchakabowwow said:


> Beautiful.
> im too rough on rifles. I fell off a small shale ledge with a brand new weatherby 257. Took care of the “new gun look” immediately. My hunts are pretty heinous. I’ve used a rifle to push thru brush.


These are safe queens for sure. I don't even like to take them to the range.


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

thebradleycrew said:


> Wow, that photo. Insane. Curious why/what you like about the APC9 over the MP5. Also, and perhaps more importantly, look at the hardware in that box. I see RMRs, comp guns, a SRO, among other things. Do show!



The APC9 pro is lighter, more compact, more reliable, faster cycling, more accurate, and tougher than the MP5. The build quality is better than Dakota Tactical MP5’s (which are 4 grand) not to mention original HK MP5’s. The manual of arms is superior (similar to an AR), everything is ambidextrous and they have glock mag compatible models. Also you can swap out the grip for AR grips and the lower will accept some but not all AR trigger groups. I have a Triggertech AR Diamond in mine, beats the hell out of Geissele. And yeah I’m a huge fan of the SRO. I’d say my dot acquisition is twice as fast vs the RMR and the glass is clearer and the dot is crisper.


----------



## panda

I've always wanted a bolt action 30-06


----------



## boomchakabowwow

In CA. Especially where I live. Not a lot of places to shoot. Sucks.


----------



## Cloudsmoker

Kgp said:


> If you haven't read John Browning's biography, you should. His journey is a great story.
> 
> I don't have the skill or the tools, but I have a checkbook. Here's the only "custom" I own. Pre-64 Winchester .270 built by Dennis Olson from Montana. I've also got a few Coopers.
> 
> View attachment 78996
> View attachment 78996
> View attachment 78997
> View attachment 78998
> View attachment 78999
> View attachment 79000
> View attachment 79001
> View attachment 79002


John Browning was not human, just dropped in from another galaxy. That’s the only explanation which works for me. If you ever find yourself with time to kill in Salt Lake City area, the JMB museum in Ogden might convince you as well. Dude was a master by the age of 11, creating firearms from discarded railroad iron, that are still functioning 100 years later. #Freak.


----------



## roughrider

boomchakabowwow said:


> In CA. Especially where I live. Not a lot of places to shoot. Sucks.



Yeah man, Cali sucks. I travel out of state for work alot and when I see how free Americans live, I hate how California treats its residents.


----------



## roughrider

HalfBloodHobbit said:


> Been on a 9mm kick recently, B&T APC9 Pro is now my favorite sub gun even more than my MP5



Nice but not cheap.


----------



## bkultra

@HalfBloodHobbit Do you own a MPX? I've been eyeing one and wanted to see how it compares to the ACP9.


----------



## inferno

Cloudsmoker said:


> John Browning was not human, just dropped in from another galaxy.



god created man, but colt made them equal


----------



## thebradleycrew

@Travis petosa - curious to know if you've broken in that Staccato XC more. I keep thinking about getting one but am on the fence. Did the comp loosen up? Any issues?


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

roughrider said:


> Nice but not cheap.


A lot cheaper than my MP5 lol, by a long shot


bkultra said:


> @HalfBloodHobbit Do you own a MPX? I've been eyeing one and wanted to see how it compares to the ACP9.


I have an MPX, a Scorpion, a TP9 and a Dakota Tactical MP5 and the APC9 pro shits on everything. It’s the best made, the toughest, the most accurate and by far the best fit and finish. It also accepts AR trigger modules I have a Triggertech AR diamond in mine and you can run the gun so fast.


----------



## bkultra

Ok sounds like I'll switch my sights to the APC9, thanks.


----------



## rebornhj

HalfBloodHobbit said:


> A lot cheaper than my MP5 lol, by a long shot
> 
> I have an MPX, a Scorpion, a TP9 and a Dakota Tactical MP5 and the APC9 pro shits on everything. It’s the best made, the toughest, the most accurate and by far the best fit and finish. It also accepts AR trigger modules I have a Triggertech AR diamond in mine and you can run the gun so fast.



How's MPX compare to a Scorpion performance wise?
4.5" MPX K might be too short to use?


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

rebornhj said:


> How's MPX compare to a Scorpion performance wise?
> 4.5" MPX K might be too short to use?


The MPX runs smoother with less recoil much better fit and finish. Scorpion is every bit as accurate though and will run while it’s super dirty with no lube but the trigger as absolutely trash. Even with aftermarket options it’s not good


----------



## Kgp

I really enjoy the AR style handguns. I have a CMMG Banshee in .45 and a Grand Power Stribog in 9mm. Both super accurate. The Banshee doesn't like my reloads, but works great with factory ammo. Very impressed with the Stribog quality for the money.


----------



## Travis petosa

thebradleycrew said:


> @Travis petosa - curious to know if you've broken in that Staccato XC more. I keep thinking about getting one but am on the fence. Did the comp loosen up? Any issues?



It loosened up a bit. I went to the range yesterday and sighted in the DPP on it. The put around 500 more through it. It now feels like it rides on glass out of lockup but it’s still a little tight when initially racking it. I think it’s just gonna take another 500 or so through it to break in.


----------



## panda

when the f^ck are ammo prices going back to normal!!??


----------



## tcmx3

panda said:


> when the f^ck are ammo prices going back to normal!!??



it's been twelve years.

I think this is normal.


----------



## Cloudsmoker

Ha - this is the new normal. And it’s about to get much worse.


----------



## panda

Cloudsmoker said:


> Ha - this is the new normal. And it’s about to get much worse.


no!! 
what makes you say that?


----------



## tcmx3

panda said:


> no!!
> what makes you say that?



it's very difficult to answer this without getting into politics, which is ironic, because it's not about the actual politics, it's about the _perception_ of politics.

but yes I would expect there to be some upward pressure on ammunition prices, especially on common rounds.


----------



## thebradleycrew

I agree - ammo prices are not going down anytime soon. The 2020 shortage started because of primer manufacturing pressures created by CV-19 (only three major manufacturers of primers in the world, none in the US) but escalated because of other issues. Most of what I hear indicates that ammo prices are 18 months from ~potentially~ coming back down, and that is based on current backlogs at the major ammunition manufacturers. There is some price point (say $1/round for 9mm) that we are approaching that I believe will curb general shooter demand (right now demand great outpaces supply) but I don't think we'll see old ammo prices for a long, long time.


----------



## panda

thebradleycrew said:


> I agree - ammo prices are not going down anytime soon. The 2020 shortage started because of primer manufacturing pressures created by CV-19 (only three major manufacturers of primers in the world, none in the US) but escalated because of other issues. Most of what I hear indicates that ammo prices are 18 months from ~potentially~ coming back down, and that is based on current backlogs at the major ammunition manufacturers. There is some price point (say $1/round for 9mm) that we are approaching that I believe will curb general shooter demand (right now demand great outpaces supply) but I don't think we'll see old ammo prices for a long, long time.


this would mean no more range days for me. guess I'll have to start loading my own soon.


----------



## Towerguy

panda said:


> i've decided to get a beretta m9a3 with tax money. will be first time owning a gun although i've shot plenty times before. any tips/good-to-knows/etc as a first time gun owner? such as maintenance, potential mods and such..
> 
> so ammo is going to get expensive fast, where should i buy in bulk? any specific rounds you recommend? looking for economy but reliable.


Wilson Combat CQB Elite
Springfield Armory TRP
Sig Sauer P320

No ammo right now, and I refuse to pay the awful prices being charged.


----------



## Barmoley

thebradleycrew said:


> I agree - ammo prices are not going down anytime soon. The 2020 shortage started because of primer manufacturing pressures created by CV-19 (only three major manufacturers of primers in the world, none in the US) but escalated because of other issues. Most of what I hear indicates that ammo prices are 18 months from ~potentially~ coming back down, and that is based on current backlogs at the major ammunition manufacturers. There is some price point (say $1/round for 9mm) that we are approaching that I believe will curb general shooter demand (right now demand great outpaces supply) but I don't think we'll see old ammo prices for a long, long time.




Totally agree. You would need years and years of low demand on guns and ammo. This will require years of sociopolitical environment where people didn't feel like they needed any. Here in CA you can't even buy any common guns or ammo.


----------



## thebradleycrew

panda said:


> this would mean no more range days for me. guess I'll have to start loading my own soon.


Ditto. Reloading is where it's at. But the challenge is finding primers. Primer prices are up 200% or more.


----------



## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> Totally agree. You would need years and years of low demand on guns and ammo. This will require years of sociopolitical environment where people didn't feel like they needed any. Here in CA you can't even buy any common guns or ammo.



perfectly stated.

the statistical need for guns for self defense or hunting is at an all-time low yet perception is probably higher than any time in my lifetime. 

really ruining it for the folks who just like it as a hobby.


----------



## daveb

panda said:


> this would mean no more range days for me. guess I'll have to start loading my own soon.



Conversion kit to .22?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

panda said:


> this would mean no more range days for me. guess I'll have to start loading my own soon.



Shell casings we got for free at shooting range aimed for Japanese tourist.

That means powder, projectile, primer caps paid for at the time far cheaper.

Also for target shooting don't need full loads.
Rare but we did have a few miss fires.

My home protection have expensive Remington high performance jacket 357 Magnum rounds.


----------



## chiffonodd

tcmx3 said:


> it's very difficult to answer this without getting into politics, which is ironic, because it's not about the actual politics, it's about the _perception_ of politics.
> 
> but yes I would expect there to be some upward pressure on ammunition prices, especially on common rounds.



I hope this is viewed as a poli sci statement and not as a political statement: when a certain party in the US gets voted into power, certain manufacturers, politicians, media organizations, and non-profit associations like to push the narrative that certain rights are in jeopardy -- hence a demand spike that drives up prices considerably. It's all a game.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yes and a spike in buying guns. Tulsi (Democrat) on Fox U tube short video on danger of Adam Shifts actions against civil liberties. Intelligence on half the country that voted for Trump.


----------



## alterwisser

Keith Sinclair said:


> Yes and a spike in buying guns. Tulsi (Democrat) on Fox U tube short video on danger of Adam Shifts actions against civil liberties. Intelligence on half the country that voted for Trump.



It’s silly, really. Gun and ammo sales spiked when Obama got elected. They spike after every mass shooting. They spike when a democrat is leading in the polls.

Nothing really every happened.

At some point you MIGHT see stricter background checks. But are you really worried about that? If you don’t have any dirt on your record you can still buy the gun(s). If You’re a convicted felon or someone with mental health issues you might not. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

Full disclosure: Not American, but lived there for a long time. I wanted to buy a gun but wasn’t allowed to (legal resident, but it didn’t matter).


----------



## tcmx3

btw legit question do any of you actually like going to the range?

I despise it; too many places now have zero rule enforcement and these days it seems like everyone is way too keen to talk (literally insane) politics when I just want shoot. IMO it's much better to find a friend with a big property. probably the only thing I actually like about living in Texas (well that and 80mph speed limits are almost high enough). 

strange though most of the interest always seems to be in handguns.


----------



## panda

I'm thinking of just buying a separate gun for 22. do you know if cz75 is available in 22?


daveb said:


> Conversion kit to .22?


----------



## chiffonodd

tcmx3 said:


> btw legit question do any of you actually like going to the range?
> 
> I despise it; too many places now have zero rule enforcement and these days it seems like everyone is way too keen to talk (literally insane) politics when I just want shoot. IMO it's much better to find a friend with a big property. probably the only thing I actually like about living in Texas (well that and 80mph speed limits are almost high enough).
> 
> strange though most of the interest always seems to be in handguns.



A friend with rural property is the dream but there are still indoor ranges that take safety very seriously. Just trust your gut when you walk in the door.


----------



## chiffonodd

panda said:


> I'm thinking of just buying a separate gun for 22. do you know if cz75 is available in 22?



I dont think that there's a CZ75 model that comes chambered in .22 from the factory. Definitely conversion kits.

If you want a factory .22 that feels like a "real gun" look at sig, ruger, and walther.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Of coarse all for strict bagckround checks. Mental illness so hard to predict. Only after the fact in most cases. 

Think many have come across persons they think maybe dangerous.


----------



## panda

chiffonodd said:


> I dont think that there's a CZ75 model that comes chambered in .22 from the factory. Definitely conversion kits.
> 
> If you want a factory .22 that feels like a "real gun" look at sig, ruger, and walther.


I want a full size steel frame.


----------



## chiffonodd

panda said:


> I want a full size steel frame.



What about a 1911 .22?


----------



## Barmoley

Thee is a cz 22 Kadet kit that fits on cz 75 as well as some other models. At one point you could buy it with a frame, not sure now.


----------



## panda

chiffonodd said:


> What about a 1911 .22?


I already have a 1911, was hoping to get something different lol. cz75 with kit sounds like the way to go. just gotta source a used one and find the kit.


----------



## Barmoley

panda said:


> I already have a 1911, was hoping to get something different lol. cz75 with kit sounds like the way to go. just gotta source a used one and find the kit.


If you can, find 75B SA. Will be good with 1911 skills.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

How did Australian Gov. get people to turn in guns is it working? Did crime go down?

I can't see Americans giving up their guns. When I was a kid in Virginia people had gun racks in their pickup trucks. My father had revolver, shotgun, rifles. Was shooting .22 as a kid.


----------



## Kgp

panda said:


> I want a full size steel frame.


Ruger Mark IV Lots of models. I've got a Mark IV Competition with a red dot. Super accurate, easy to clean.


----------



## Ensis

Keith Sinclair said:


> How did Australian Gov. get people to turn in guns is it working? Did crime go down?
> 
> I can't see Americans giving up their guns. When I was a kid in Virginia people had gun racks in their pickup trucks. My father had revolver, shotgun, rifles. Was shooting .22 as a kid.


I can give you a Canadian perspective. There really is no gun culture here. It is quite difficult to own a hand gun legally in Canada. And most Canadians are fine with that. But because of our proximity to the US, guns enter illegally all the time. Gun violence, mostly gang related, has become a problem in big cities like Toronto were I live. My question to you is this: do Americans like guns because everyone else has them, so they feel safer or do they like guns like I like kitchen knives?


----------



## daveb

It's the smell of gunpowder

There is no single reason that covers the scope of gun owners.

I like handguns for home defense. I do some range time but only enough to maintain some proficiency. 

Others enjoy the range time more and some shoot handguns competitively, making financial and time investments that any competive sport requires.

And then there are the collectors.

I shoot rifles for hunting, mostly deer, some cats (hehe). Others shoot for sport, some competively as described above. I have no interest in participating but will watch the 1000yd shooters occasionally. And there's collectors - a friend collects Garands (military rifle) and has about a dozen at any given time. And he shoots them.

Same drill with shotguns. I use them primarily for hunting, but in my younger years would shoot competitively.


----------



## panda

Ensis said:


> I can give you a Canadian perspective. There really is no gun culture here. It is quite difficult to own a hand gun legally in Canada. And most Canadians are fine with that. But because of our proximity to the US, guns enter illegally all the time. Gun violence, mostly gang related, has become a problem in big cities like Toronto were I live. My question to you is this: do Americans like guns because everyone else has them, so they feel safer or do they like guns like I like kitchen knives?


I like them strictly for recreational use (entertainment factor and stress relief)
my favorite things about it is the noise they make, and the smell of gunpowder. 

I dont keep it loaded at home for 'self defense'


----------



## tcmx3

Ensis said:


> I can give you a Canadian perspective. There really is no gun culture here. It is quite difficult to own a hand gun legally in Canada. And most Canadians are fine with that. But because of our proximity to the US, guns enter illegally all the time. Gun violence, mostly gang related, has become a problem in big cities like Toronto were I live. *My question to you is this: do Americans like guns because everyone else has them, so they feel safer or do they like guns like I like kitchen knives?*



there has never been a day in my life I felt like I needed a gun for self defense, and this is true of most people. a well trained dog is far more effective, they can identify human beings from the sound of how they walk.

also, I am very much against hunting for sport. to be clear I realize we all have to eat and I dont have a problem with that at all.

to me theyre just mechanical curios & there is some competitive aspect to it.

tbh if all the guns went away it wouldnt be materially any different than if all the watches in the world vanished, or guitars or floor standing speakers. 

as far as why other people like guns, I mean it sure seems like a non-insignificant amount really like playing tactical barbie dressup and I think this is starting to supplant people like my elderly vietnam vet neighbor who has a few because his father had a few in the house, and his father, etc etc, or my grandfather who was a career military officer.


----------



## Barmoley

Ensis said:


> I can give you a Canadian perspective. There really is no gun culture here. It is quite difficult to own a hand gun legally in Canada. And most Canadians are fine with that. But because of our proximity to the US, guns enter illegally all the time. Gun violence, mostly gang related, has become a problem in big cities like Toronto were I live. My question to you is this: do Americans like guns because everyone else has them, so they feel safer or do they like guns like I like kitchen knives?



Guns are interesting mechanical devices with lots of engineering in them. You can tinker with them. There is a lot of history and variations, so great for collecting. Shooting sports are fun, varied and very challenging. Lots to overanalyze and obsess over, just like kitchen knives or more. Really, what is not to like?


----------



## thebradleycrew

I'll respond on a couple of items here, but start with this: 
.22LR prices are going nuts currently too. I'm seeing $0.40/round for basic .22LR ammo. If you've got a stockpile great, but just be aware that current .22LR prices are similar to what .45ACP prices should be...


----------



## AT5760

And here I am thinking about picking up sporting clays or five stand once spring comes. I guess there's always golf...


----------



## Barmoley

Sporting clays are so much fun. Ammo and gun situation is insane right now, might still be able to buy clay type sporting shotgun ammo.


----------



## thebradleycrew

AT5760 said:


> And here I am thinking about picking up sporting clays or five stand once spring comes. I guess there's always golf...


I feel it would be a sad day when I have to golf because I can't shoot.


----------



## panda

thebradleycrew said:


> I feel it would be a sad day when I have to golf because I can't shoot.


I like the driving range or top.golf, but actual golf hell no


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Watches, Guitars, Floor standing speakers that's good company what would the world be without them  

The world is changing fast I may even live long enough to see self driving cars, plasma energy, better batteries making electric cars a good choice. 

Lithium Ion first cell phones would catch fire & emit bad fumes. The guy who made them more stable got rich. Still not perfect if a electric car got hit by a Train or Semi it would be nasty. The same guy who invented Lithium Ion is working with others for a better battery. 

We are creatures of smell. When was a little kid liked the smell of gasoline because linked it with trips & adventures. Still like the smell of 
gasoline. Same with gunpowder duck hunting with my father. Now I love ducks they are very cool birds. Have become a bird watcher have good German binoculars.

I can see how people would collect firearms.
They are intricate mechanisms. At a show here guy was selling antique guns nineteenth century when guns took a leap forward. I was tempted but never bought one. 

It's in our DNA weapons. Is it still relative? That is the debate.


----------



## Ensis

Very interesting to hear your points of view guys, I've always wanted to ask. I can definitely see the attraction to the mechanical aspect of a gun and all the history that goes with it. Still, I'm glad there aren't so many around these parts.


----------



## Steel+Fire

tcmx3 said:


> there has never been a day in my life I felt like I needed a gun for self defense, and this is true of most people. a well trained dog is far more effective, they can identify human beings from the sound of how they walk.
> 
> also, I am very much against hunting for sport. to be clear I realize we all have to eat and I dont have a problem with that at all.
> 
> to me theyre just mechanical curios & there is some competitive aspect to it.
> 
> tbh if all the guns went away it wouldnt be materially any different than if all the watches in the world vanished, or guitars or floor standing speakers.
> 
> as far as why other people like guns, I mean it sure seems like a non-insignificant amount really like playing tactical barbie dressup and I think this is starting to supplant people like my elderly vietnam vet neighbor who has a few because his father had a few in the house, and his father, etc etc, or my grandfather who was a career military officer.


As a highly trained person who instructs firearms I would challenge you to actually get to know people who own and use firearms for defense and sport. Sorry my personal defense decisions and employment opportunities make you so uncomfortable. I assure you most of us are no LARPing or playing dress up. Statistics of personal defense with firearms speak for themselves.


----------



## tcmx3

Steel+Fire said:


> As a highly trained person who instructs firearms I would challenge you to actually get to know people who own and use firearms for defense and sport. Sorry my personal defense decisions and employment opportunities make you so uncomfortable. I assure you most of us are no LARPing or playing dress up. Statistics of personal defense with firearms speak for themselves.



1. Im basing what I said based on a fair amount of experience with such types. As it happens, Im related to a gaggle of them. Not just many military and ex-military but also professional sport hunters, including a close relation who derives all his income from taking pampered city types out into the "wilderness" so they can post IG stories over dead animals.

2. It doesnt make me uncomfortable. I know your type _loves_ to believe you're "triggering" all the people who don't approve, but it's not that at all. I am just looking down on that type as the laughable group of clowns they are, who are going to get our toys taken away from us.


----------



## panda

tcmx3 said:


> 1. Im basing what I said based on a fair amount of experience with such types. As it happens, Im related to a gaggle of them. Not just many military and ex-military but also professional sport hunters, including a close relation who derives all his income from taking pampered city types out into the "wilderness" so they can post IG stories over dead animals.
> 
> 2. It doesnt make me uncomfortable. I know your type _loves_ to believe you're "triggering" all the people who don't approve, but it's not that at all. I am just looking down on that type as the laughable group of clowns they are, who are going to get our toys taken away from us.


its always the.posers who ruin it for everyone else


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Most of Mass shooters are not clinically mentally ill. Quite a few are just wankers with anger victim issues. Loners with active violent fantasies. Social media can feed into these types. Often under 20 yrs. old. Those are the ones that will take our toys away.


----------



## Lycanit

For myself I like them more than kitchen knives, my Porsche the Cobra.....etc. I also daily carry and unfortunately have had to draw more than once and discharge twice. I shudder to think where I would be now without. I also carry for one of my jobs. Some people haven't had the culture of firearms and that's fine. Some people don't understand knives or driving, that's also fine. But your....not actually you but those who infringe... ignorance of my rights is not permission to push a different belief in my unwanted.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Hmmmmm ... there is a lot more to Canada than Toronto ... though many Trontites think differently. There are many gun clubs and shooting facilities across Canada and many people who own guns for hunting and recreational purposes. Go to northern (insert province here) and you will find many people who wouldn’t think about going into the bush without one. Male grizzly bears can weigh up to 1500lbs and stand over 9 feet tall ... though I doubt you will find any in the wilds of Toronto. Canada wasted about a billion dollars trying to establish a long gun registry. The registry failed ... some would say because it was ignored and hated by most gun owners.

In my youth I owned a target pistol (S&W Model 41) and shot regularly. I found target shooting to be addictive and in some ways similar to golf. Every city in Canada likely has several gun clubs with shooting facilities ... and most have years long waiting lists to join.

As I see it a gun culture is alive and well in Canada ... even in Toronto.


----------



## Ensis

Brian Weekley said:


> Hmmmmm ... there is a lot more to Canada than Toronto ... though many Trontites think differently. There are many gun clubs and shooting facilities across Canada and many people who own guns for hunting and recreational purposes. Go to northern (insert province here) and you will find many people who wouldn’t think about going into the bush without one. Male grizzly bears can weigh up to 1500lbs and stand over 9 feet tall ... though I doubt you will find any in the wilds of Toronto. Canada wasted about a billion dollars trying to establish a long gun registry. The registry failed ... some would say because it was ignored and hated by most gun owners.
> 
> In my youth I owned a target pistol (S&W Model 41) and shot regularly. I found target shooting to be addictive and in some ways similar to golf. Every city in Canada likely has several gun clubs with shooting facilities ... and most have years long waiting lists to join.
> 
> As I see it a gun culture is alive and well in Canada ... even in Toronto.



Hunting rifles and hand guns are two different animals. I was referring to the latter. I do not know nor have I ever met a Canadian who owns a handgun. I know a lot of people.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Do a google search on Toronto gun clubs ... you might be surprised at what you find. Most gun owners ... especially hand gun owners don’t advertise the fact and for your interest it is relatively straight forward to purchase a hand gun in Canada. It requires a police background check and proof of training. Time consuming but definitely possible.


----------



## Ensis

Brian Weekley said:


> Do a google search on Toronto gun clubs ... you might be surprised at what you find. Most gun owners ... especially hand gun owners don’t advertise the fact and for your interest it is relatively straight forward to purchase a hand gun in Canada. It requires a police background check and proof of training. Time consuming but definitely possible.


I never said it was impossible to own a hand gun. But the number of handgun owners is small. And the fact they don't talk about it, should tell you something. Anyway, can we talk about knives again?


----------



## Barmoley

Brian Weekley said:


> In my youth I owned a target pistol (S&W Model 41) and shot regularly. I found target shooting to be addictive and in some ways similar to golf.



Me too, but I was young and dumb and now these are illegal in California.


----------



## Brian Weekley

California has banned Golf? .... well I guess California continues to lead the way.


----------



## Steel+Fire

tcmx3 said:


> 1. Im basing what I said based on a fair amount of experience with such types. As it happens, Im related to a gaggle of them. Not just many military and ex-military but also professional sport hunters, including a close relation who derives all his income from taking pampered city types out into the "wilderness" so they can post IG stories over dead animals.
> 
> 2. It doesnt make me uncomfortable. I know your type _loves_ to believe you're "triggering" all the people who don't approve, but it's not that at all. I am just looking down on that type as the laughable group of clowns they are, who are going to get our toys taken away from us.


Sorry but you are thread crapping. This is literally a thread about shooting. Good for you that you know people. You seem like such a reasonable person with your superior views. Lol.

Everybody else keep shooting and enjoying your freedom.


----------



## Barmoley

Brian Weekley said:


> California has banned Golf? .... well I guess California continues to lead the way.


 Not yet, all our rulers like to play it too much.... They might though if they determine it is too dangerous for the rest of the riffraff. They banned diesel Golf for a few years. S&W 41s on the other hand are pure evil....


----------



## tcmx3

Steel+Fire said:


> Sorry but you are thread crapping. This is literally a thread about shooting. Good for you that you know people. You seem like such a reasonable person with your superior views. Lol.
> 
> Everybody else keep shooting and enjoying your freedom.



? you're the one that wanted to have this conversation.

And thanks the next time I go out I'll make sure I really focus on enjoying it. Because, after all, if the High Speed, Low Drag Ken doll stuff continues it will probably result in a legitimate reduction in our ability to enjoy the hobby.


----------



## Steel+Fire

tcmx3 said:


> ? you're the one that wanted to have this conversation.
> 
> And thanks the next time I go out I'll make sure I really focus on enjoying it. Because, after all, if the High Speed, Low Drag Ken doll stuff continues it will probably result in a legitimate reduction in our ability to enjoy the hobby.


Actually you posted BS personal issues in a thread about shooting guns there smart guy. This is last response as I am done giving a negative person my attention. ✌


----------



## panda

Steel+Fire said:


> Sorry but you are thread crapping. This is literally a thread about shooting. Good for you that you know people. You seem like such a reasonable person with your superior views. Lol.
> 
> Everybody else keep shooting and enjoying your freedom.


murcaaaaaaaa f$ck yeahhhhh!!


----------



## daveb

Discuss the issue lads, not each other.


----------



## thebradleycrew

I took my Agency Arms Glock 19 out and shot my new CGS Suppressor on it for the first time. Pretty awesome experience. See photos below.


----------



## Kgp

thebradleycrew said:


> I took my Agency Arms Glock 19 out and shot my new CGS Suppressor on it for the first time. Pretty awesome experience. See photos below.
> View attachment 111597
> View attachment 111598


Pretty fancy for a plastic gun! Maybe someday, you can get a real one.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Kgp said:


> Pretty fancy for a plastic gun! Maybe someday, you can get a real one.


Haha, thanks. I'm not a full plastic convert, but I'll tell you what, they run. My Les Baer and Nighthawk 1911's are are still my favorite guns to shoot but they are not suppressor ready (i.e.: don't have threaded barrels). And according to Baer, none of their 1911's are suppressor capable anyway. I'm not sure why. When I get a 2011 (likely a Triarc or Nighthawk) I'll probably look to do a threaded barrel so I can put a suppressor on that too!


----------



## tcmx3

Kgp said:


> Pretty fancy for a plastic gun! Maybe someday, you can get a real one.



it's the lotus philosophy; performance through light weight.

really killer @thebradleycrew ; my cousin's glock 19 was the first handgun I ever shot so I have a lot of love for them. his was definitely not as setup as yours though.

what's the lead time on one of those like?


----------



## Kgp

thebradleycrew said:


> Haha, thanks. I'm not a full plastic convert, but I'll tell you what, they run. My Les Baer and Nighthawk 1911's are are still my favorite guns to shoot but they are not suppressor ready (i.e.: don't have threaded barrels). And according to Baer, none of their 1911's are suppressor capable anyway. I'm not sure why. When I get a 2011 (likely a Triarc or Nighthawk) I'll probably look to do a threaded barrel so I can put a suppressor on that too!


I’ve shot a few and you’re right. Before I owned any handguns, I did a lot of trap and sporting clays shooting and really got used to short lock times and light trigger pulls. Because of that, I cringe every time I shoot a double action. Most of my handguns are 1911 variants, and all but one are now 9mm due to old age and less recoil.


----------



## thebradleycrew

tcmx3 said:


> it's the lotus philosophy; performance through light weight.
> 
> really killer @thebradleycrew ; my cousin's glock 19 was the first handgun I ever shot so I have a lot of love for them. his was definitely not as setup as yours though.
> 
> what's the lead time on one of those like?


Thanks. It's a bombproof, accurate, and reliable gun. It's fast to draw, easy to carry, and the thing allows me to shoot 0.25 splits all day long. In terms of lead times - yikes, I don't know. Have to be 6-9 months out for any Agency Arms work right now, though they are ramping up production markedly. I highly recommend their work as they make good looking guns and more importantly, more reliable and accurate guns. 

@Kgp - I hear you on the .45 versus 9mm recoil debate. Most recently I've moved to 9mm because the new defensive ammo shows defensive results similar to most .45acp and I can both carry more rounds and because I can shoot faster splits. Unsurprisingly I am more accurate with my 1911s, but I'm just not as fast.


----------



## TheNewMexican

daveb said:


> It's the smell of gunpowder
> 
> There is no single reason that covers the scope of gun owners..........
> 
> I shoot rifles for hunting, mostly deer, some cats (hehhe).......I have no interest in participating but will watch the 1000yd shooters occasionally. And there's collectors - a friend collects Garands (military rifle) and has about a dozen at any given time. And he shoots them........



I see a lot of commonality in the above. At the tender age of 5, I picked up a used copy of "Cartridges of the World" at a garage sale and began the process of literally memorizing it cover to cover as I grew up. Have enjoyed precision shooting with bolt guns I built myself at the Trinidad summer gunsmithing classes but also love plinking with rimfire revolvers and lever actions (seems like everybody loves a .22). Pulled targets at Ben Avery for Garand shooters, and as of late I am working towards the instructor rank for Appleseed.

Hunted bear up in Maine, Antelope in Wyoming, Hogs in Oklahoma, Ducks in Colorado and Deer / Elk in New Mexico. All good memories............




thebradleycrew said:


> I'll respond on a couple of items here, but start with this:
> .22LR prices are going nuts currently too. I'm seeing $0.40/round for basic .22LR ammo. If you've got a stockpile great, but just be aware that current .22LR prices are similar to what .45ACP prices should be...



Spent the last four years taking 50 bucks out of every paycheck and going to the local sporting goods / hardware stores and buying CCI mini-mags. The jist is, I've got a couple of milk crates filled with them to keep me busy till things cool off. Not-so "Cheaper than Dirt" is back to gauging people like they did last time with 45 ACP FMJ's going for *two bucks a round*. They can stick it as far as I'm concerned...........

Per the original thread, mostly shooting a Smith and Wesson model 18 in .22 as of late.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Lycanit said:


> For myself I like them more than kitchen knives, my Porsche the Cobra.....etc. I also daily carry and unfortunately have had to draw more than once and discharge twice. I shudder to think where I would be now without. I also carry for one of my jobs. Some people haven't had the culture of firearms and that's fine. Some people don't understand knives or driving, that's also fine. But your....not actually you but those who infringe... ignorance of my rights is not permission to push a different belief in my unwanted.



If you own a Porsche & a Cobra. You need a gun just to keep them from being stolen


----------



## Dendrobatez

Haven't had a chance to shoot either yet but I'm sure they will both be fun.


----------



## panda

Dendrobatez said:


> View attachment 121480
> 
> 
> Haven't had a chance to shoot either yet but I'm sure they will both be fun.


murcaaaa


----------



## Travis petosa

Been shooting more rifles than pistols lately, after I finished my build and got a new blaster.
Ghetto blaster is now sporting an mro and cloud defensive rein. The thing is super fun to shoot. 
KAC is the new go to rifle in general now, running suppressed the gas that I usually get to the face from other rifles is sooo much better.
Still waiting on 2 cans to get through jailtime. Trash panda and a cgs Hyperion k to finish these builds off.


----------



## Towerguy

Wilson Combat CQB Elite, Springfield Armory TRP with extensive gunsmith work.


----------



## ArkaikMystic

Jeeze, well here I go:
-Springfield 1911 Range officer elite target
-FN 509 tactical w/ holosun red dot and apex trigger
-Smith&Wesson shield 9mm
-2 built AR-15's (built myself)
-Stevens by savage arms 12 gauge shotgun
-Rock Island m30 m5 nickel plated 12 gauge shotgun
-Remington 700L with magpul hunter stock
-Ruger 10/22 classic wood stock

I suggest brass ammo 100% it's fairly cheap (comparative) and is reliable. No aluminum cased ammo as it will wear at your firearm MUCH faster than any other. If your looking for the best for home defense get nickel cased ammo. You can always do your own searches on Google and weigh the pros and cons of each to see what would best suit your needs. As all ammo has its strengths and weaknesses. 

Another bit of advice, go to the range and use it. Familiarize yourself with the firearm and its use. I try to go out and shoot as often as possible, but thats gotten to be less and less so now that everyone and their grandma is buying up all the ammo and making it more sought after and a hell of a lot more expensive. I mean my local gun shop increased the price on most of their rounds by 2x as much as they were just back in December. .556 rounds were going for 7.95 for a pack of 20 now it's 13.95 for a pack of 20. 

Enjoy your new firearm  and I wish you the best of luck on your search for ammo.


----------



## ArkaikMystic

panda said:


> i never even thought to practice via dry fire, thanks i will definitely do that.


Be careful with dry firing, some guns are more fragile then others and should not be dry fired as it wears on the gun mechanisms. Just a heads up. Dry firing a rimfire firearm, striker based firearms or guns with angled firing pins (such as *revolvers* with hammer-mounted firing pins or older *shotguns*) can *damage* the gun.


----------



## Travis petosa

ArkaikMystic said:


> Be careful with dry firing, some guns are more fragile then others and should not be dry fired as it wears on the gun mechanisms. Just a heads up. Dry firing a rimfire firearm, striker based firearms or guns with angled firing pins (such as *revolvers* with hammer-mounted firing pins or older *shotguns*) can *damage* the gun.



snap caps are recommended for most dry fire sessions.
Fwiw, I’ve got multiple thousands of dry fire on my glocks and cz’s without them and they’ve been just fine. I did have an issue on my m&p where the tip of the firing pin snapped off when dry firing. I would be lying if I said I always dry fire with snap caps, but I try and do it more often than not. 
I dry fire every day btw with my carry gun while I’m making my coffee in the morning.


----------



## ArkaikMystic

Travis petosa said:


> snap caps are recommended for most dry fire sessions.
> Fwiw, I’ve got multiple thousands of dry fire on my glocks and cz’s without them and they’ve been just fine. I did have an issue on my m&p where the tip of the firing pin snapped off when dry firing. I would be lying if I said I always dry fire with snap caps, but I try and do it more often than not.
> I dry fire every day btw with my carry gun while I’m making my coffee in the morning.


You are correct, there are ways to do it safely. But that was not discussed and this person being a new gun owner should know the dangers it could cause to any firearm. Cuz as you said about your m&p was damaged in the process. I use dummy rounds myself when dry firing, but NEVER dry fire without them (Ar-15 excluded as I plan on getting better triggers soon, hopefully a binary trigger). Just giving my .02 cents so he is aware of all probabilities.


----------



## Lycanit

The dry fire mythology is from old large caliber rimfire guns. The hammer/firing pin would, with dry firing, impact the actual chamber. This would eventually lead to a case failure and a bad day.. there isn't a firearm made in the last several decades that have any issues with dry firing. Several of my handguns have literally hundreds of hours of dry fire. Both DA/SA. Sig, Ruger, Para ordinance, S&W, never had any parts needing replacement even with full disassembly. I do use snap cap cartridges but only for failure drill clearance.


----------



## ArkaikMystic

Lycanit said:


> The dry fire mythology is from old large caliber rimfire guns. The hammer/firing pin would, with dry firing, impact the actual chamber. This would eventually lead to a case failure and a bad day.. there isn't a firearm made in the last several decades that have any issues with dry firing. Several of my handguns have literally hundreds of hours of dry fire. Both DA/SA. Sig, Ruger, Para ordinance, S&W, never had any parts needing replacement even with full disassembly. I do use snap cap cartridges but only for failure drill clearance.


Use the Google search bar and you'll find out your dead wrong. Lol I literally just got my chl last year and the professional who taught the class says otherwise. Sorry, but I'm gonna trust his 38 years of firearms experience over yours. No offense meant, but experience doesn't lie. And Google results agree with him. Cant say it's ever happened to me, even before i got my chl, but just because it hasn't doesn't mean it won't and that it can't. Glad you haven't experienced a failure yet though, that's pretty awesome.


----------



## Sdo




----------



## Lycanit

Agreed.. I've been shooting over 48 years in competition and other firearm use, teaching for over 30 myself, so I speak from first hand...not google... if you have a failure in a part dry firing then it was a faulty part from the beginning... I take no offense as I don't know you. As for the hundreds of people I have trained with and shot with I have only heard of two revolvers with pin issues. Both were found to have stress risers from machining when magnafluxed.
Personally I would rather find a broken part from the comfort of my home than hear the "click" in a life and death situation. Each person will do whatever they feel is best. As a old man I know I won't change any minds here, I also know how wrong the opinion of don't dry fire is. My 1911 and p226 have literally been dry fired thousands of times. The 1911 has had 2hours a week, for 32 years.


----------



## ArkaikMystic

Lycanit said:


> Agreed.. I've been shooting over 48 years in competition and other firearm use, teaching for over 30 myself, so I speak from first hand...not google... if you have a failure in a part dry firing then it was a faulty part from the beginning... I take no offense as I don't know you. As for the hundreds of people I have trained with and shot with I have only heard of two revolvers with pin issues. Both were found to have stress risers from machining when magnafluxed.
> Personally I would rather find a broken part from the comfort of my home than hear the "click" in a life and death situation. Each person will do whatever they feel is best. As a old man I know I won't change any minds here, I also know how wrong the opinion of don't dry fire is. My 1911 and p226 have literally been dry fired thousands of times. The 1911 has had 2hours a week, for 32 years.


You should come to Oregon then, here they look at you like a bumbling idiot if you dry fire a striker pistol. Ask me how I know.  only malfunction I have ever had was on a firing range with a .223 wylde about 2 and a half years ago, it blew up in my face on the second shot sending shrapnel into my arm. Guess what? I dry fired that thing at least 150 times before going to the range. Found out it was a faulty BCG. Luckily walked away virtually unharmed. Not that these things are at all related ad I expect it was faulty manufacturing in this case 100%. I have about 5 years of firearms experience under my belt, with about a year of it being solid. And I never experienced an issue with dry fire myself nor seen it happen.  I've just been going off what the shops and my chl trainer told me.


----------



## Barmoley

Lycanit said:


> Agreed.. I've been shooting over 48 years in competition and other firearm use, teaching for over 30 myself, so I speak from first hand...not google... if you have a failure in a part dry firing then it was a faulty part from the beginning... I take no offense as I don't know you. As for the hundreds of people I have trained with and shot with I have only heard of two revolvers with pin issues. Both were found to have stress risers from machining when magnafluxed.
> Personally I would rather find a broken part from the comfort of my home than hear the "click" in a life and death situation. Each person will do whatever they feel is best. As a old man I know I won't change any minds here, I also know how wrong the opinion of don't dry fire is. My 1911 and p226 have literally been dry fired thousands of times. The 1911 has had 2hours a week, for 32 years.



I absolutely agree with this and have similar experience with dry firing. Modern center fired pistols and rifles should not be damaged by dry firing, there really is no reason for it if you look at the designs. If the failure happens the part was faulty and would fail anyway, possibly sooner.



ArkaikMystic said:


> You should come to Oregon then, here they look at you like a bumbling idiot if you dry fire a striker pistol. Ask me how I know.  only malfunction I have ever had was on a firing range with a .223 wylde about 2 and a half years ago, it blew up in my face on the second shot sending shrapnel into my arm. Guess what? I dry fired that thing at least 150 times before going to the range. Found out it was a faulty BCG. Luckily walked away virtually unharmed. Not that these things are at all related ad I expect it was faulty manufacturing in this case 100%. I have about 5 years of firearms experience under my belt, with about a year of it being solid. And I never experienced an issue with dry fire myself nor seen it happen.  I've just been going off what the shops and my chl trainer told me.



Oregon is a weird placeI am kidding, mostly. Consider though that glock which is a striker fired pistol needs to be dry fired to disassemble, not only glock either. Sure you don’t disassemble as often as dry fire potentially, but still. It is pretty clear that it will not be harmed by dry firing.


----------



## Lycanit

Glad you got out of that with only that injury. Eye and ear pro!!!!!
We had a bolt in a BCG found to be machined backwards.. it fired and had a bolt over... weird....ok. looking it over no biggie...he fired again...bolt over...whoa...that's not realistic. Looked closely and the extractor wasn't there... Pulled it down and the extractor was on the opposite side.. it had no button ejector.
2012 a blue buy S&W AR officer model buy was brought to me feeling" scratchy" he said. In my mind I thought dry.... Nope partially machined BCG was literally digging into the races on the upper.im betting it would have fired but would have hated to be holding it.. he was dry firing it to check it out and


----------



## Travis petosa

Sold my xc and picked up this c2 to replace it. It’s pretty much taken over edc duty from my p10c.
It’s a great shooter, more accurate than I and it just wants to go fast. The dot literally just sits there, recoil is so manageable. Have about 1500 through it so far.


----------



## thebradleycrew

I would have picked up your XC!!!


----------



## Travis petosa

Sorry! The XC didn't even make it to any websites, my buddy I shoot with picked it up off me. So I still get to **** around with it whenever he brings it to the range. 

I will say this about both staccato's if anyone is considering them, between the two I've had since they switched from sti to Staccato. I've got about 5k rounds through them and several classes where they would get 500+ rounds through them in a day and I have yet to have a single malfunction.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Travis petosa said:


> Sorry! The XC didn't even make it to any websites, my buddy I shoot with picked it up off me. So I still get to **** around with it whenever he brings it to the range.
> 
> I will say this about both staccato's if anyone is considering them, between the two I've had since they switched from sti to Staccato. I've got about 5k rounds through them and several classes where they would get 500+ rounds through them in a day and I have yet to have a single malfunction.


Not surprised. Those XC's are awesome. That's awesome to hear. So no degradation in quality in your view post-switch from STI to Staccato?


----------



## Travis petosa

I would honestly say they are more reliable since the switch. My Costa carry was very finicky when it came to magazines and some ammunition. 

The tolerances on the new guns isn't QUITE what they used to be but for a more duty use gun I actually understand why they did that. It still feels like it's on rails though when compared to most other guns though.


----------



## coxhaus

I grew up shooting guns. I was deer hunting when I was 7 or 8. It was expected in Texas. I shot pistol competition toward the end of high school and in college. I continued to shoot in a city league as I working. Target pistols are a lot different than carry weapons. I shot 2700 competition which is a three-pistol class. You had 45 cal class, center fire class, and 22 cal class. You could shoot your 45 in the center fire class but you would be at a disadvantage. 

I suggest you buy a pistol that you like and feels good then learn to shoot it. Practice when you can.


----------



## Bodine

Love seeing other enthusiasts on this forum.
Ya'll own some nice pieces, practice hard, and be a mentor to someone younger than yourself.


----------



## Towerguy

thebradleycrew said:


> Haha, thanks. I'm not a full plastic convert, but I'll tell you what, they run. My Les Baer and Nighthawk 1911's are are still my favorite guns to shoot but they are not suppressor ready (i.e.: don't have threaded barrels). And according to Baer, none of their 1911's are suppressor capable anyway. I'm not sure why. When I get a 2011 (likely a Triarc or Nighthawk) I'll probably look to do a threaded barrel so I can put a suppressor on that too!


Curious why you need a suppressed handgun?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Ammo prices have gone up quite a bit in a short period of time. Try doing home repair or construction you wouldn't believe lumber prices. That's the case here.

Firing lots of rounds target shooting can get expensive. 

Have a pellet pistol non lethal has come in handy a few times


----------



## chiffonodd

Travis petosa said:


> Sold my xc and picked up this c2 to replace it. It’s pretty much taken over edc duty from my p10c.
> It’s a great shooter, more accurate than I and it just wants to go fast. The dot literally just sits there, recoil is so manageable. Have about 1500 through it so far.



Edc with optics and a tac light? Dang.


----------



## Travis petosa

Pretty much every gun I have has a light and optic. I don’t even buy stuff without a mounting platform now a days. Doesn’t really make carrying any more uncomfortable carrying appendix.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Towerguy said:


> Curious why you need a suppressed handgun?


I'll answer your question with a question. Have you ever shot a suppressed handgun?


----------



## Barmoley

If I could I would shoot everything suppressed. Stupid Hollywood made people think suppressors are evil and only useful to professional killers, when in reality they are just safety equipment. They are required equipment in some countries.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Barmoley said:


> If I could I would shoot everything suppressed. Stupid Hollywood made people think suppressors are evil and only useful to professional killers, when in reality they are just safety equipment. They are required equipment in some countries.


THIS.


----------



## coxhaus

I would think with a suppresser you need to shoot light loads as anything that breaks the sound barrier won't work. 

I hand load all my target rounds except 22. Target loads are very light as you only shoot 50 yards in 2700 match in slow fire and in rapid fire and timed fire you shoot 25 yards.

Back in my day you had to use iron sights and single hand shooting. Nowadays you can use red dots for sights.


----------



## Todd762

If I had an unlimited budget but could only buy 1 NFA item, it would be a .22lr suppressor to thread onto my 22lr pistol or rifle. 

thebradleycrew…The new Stacatto pistols are excellent. I’ve shot the entire line at a class when Buck was there attending.


----------



## coxhaus

In the old days when I was shooting a lot only 22 lr target loads were slow enough for a suppressor. 22 lr high velocity or copper coated rounds broke the sound barrier. The copper coating was because of the velocity. Lead only works at slow speeds otherwise it will melt in the barrel if you push it too fast. The target loads are much more actuate of a round than standard rounds.


----------



## Barmoley

Suppressors don't require subsonic loads. Obviously they are most effective in reducing noise with them since the crack of going over the sound barrier still exists when shooting supersonic.Still even supersonic is much quieter and there are other benefits. Recoil is less for example, not an issue with .22 lr.


----------



## coxhaus

I agree suppressors do other things as well like flash suppression probably more so on rifles than pistols. But why go to all the trouble to put a suppressor on a pistol and then shoot a supersonic round? Why not just shoot a subsonic round?


----------



## Barmoley

Depends what you are trying to do. On a pistol you would go with subsonic if you could. For example some people hunt with pistols for added challenge, so there you would pick best load for the job not best load for a suppressor. Or if subsonic loads don't cycle your semi-auto even with a suppressor then you'd pick a reliable load. Just depends.


----------



## coxhaus

I have a light spring for my Colt 45 since it was not a target model but was built into a target model. I can change springs if I want to shoot hard ball ammo. I think if I was going to hunt with a pistol, I would shoot a 357 mag or 44 mag. I would not use a small round like a 9 mm or 380. I am not sure I would want a suppressor on a pistol I was hunting with. It seems like it would be awkward to use for hunting. Carrying and draw would be harder to use with a suppressor.


----------



## Barmoley

coxhaus said:


> I have a light spring for my Colt 45 since it was not a target model but was built into a target model. I can change springs if I want to shoot hard ball ammo. I think if I was going to hunt with a pistol, I would shoot a 357 mag or 44 mag. I would not use a small round like a 9 mm or 380. I am not sure I would want a suppressor on a pistol I was hunting with. It seems like it would be awkward to use for hunting. Carrying and draw would be harder to use with a suppressor.
> 
> What are you hunting? If you are not eating the meat then it is killing not hunting.



I don't hunt and don't judge people who do or don't. My point was that suppressors are not evil and should be allowed everywhere where firearms and shooting sports are allowed. They are just safety devices and are allowed on air guns, even very powerful ones.


----------



## coxhaus

I have no problems with people owning supperssors. I grew up hunting. When I was five years old, I would shoot a .410 single shot shotgun with my grandfather for quail. I think I was 7 or 8 before I shot my first deer.


----------



## Bodine

I would have a suppressor on everthing I own, if I did not have to pay stupid high prices for them, plus gov taxes, have to open a trust to own them in Fl. Another gov way to make you pay extra for something that should not be regulated.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Another reason for using supersonic ammunition in a handgun with a suppressor: home defense. I keep an Agency Arms G19 suppressed by my bedside. If I ever have to use it inside the house, I don't want to be deaf, and it will keep muzzle flash down in the dark of night allowing for better follow-up shots. I wouldn't use subsonic ammo for self defense, generally, unless we are talking 300BLK, in which case I say, hell yeah.


----------



## coxhaus

I have some loaded pistols as backups to my AR15 carbine with 30 round magazine and my 870 shotgun with a short barrel and long magazine all loaded and ready to go. I am not sure you will hear the noise in a high crises time.


----------



## Barmoley

Shooting an unsuppressed pistol indoors makes you pretty deaf temporarily. It’s not like movies where they shoot rifles, shotguns, pistols indoors and then have conversations.


----------



## thebradleycrew

Barmoley said:


> Shooting an unsuppressed pistol indoors makes you pretty deaf temporarily. It’s not like movies where they shoot rifles, shotguns, pistols indoors and then have conversations.


What'd you say?


----------



## coxhaus

Barmoley said:


> Shooting an unsuppressed pistol indoors makes you pretty deaf temporarily. It’s not like movies where they shoot rifles, shotguns, pistols indoors and then have conversations.



I know, but that does not mean I won't pull the trigger if I need to.


----------



## Travis petosa

thebradleycrew said:


> Another reason for using supersonic ammunition in a handgun with a suppressor: home defense. I keep an Agency Arms G19 suppressed by my bedside. If I ever have to use it inside the house, I don't want to be deaf, and it will keep muzzle flash down in the dark of night allowing for better follow-up shots. I wouldn't use subsonic ammo for self defense, generally, unless we are talking 300BLK, in which case I say, hell yeah.



I like to be able to go subs and then quickly switch over to supers when you need to reach out and touch something a little bit further. 300 is the perfect caliber for it. If I could justify having pistol dedicated suppressors I would suppress everything!


----------



## rstcso

Glocks 20 & 29. AR in .223 Wylde.


----------



## schutzen-jager

yesterday at SRPC range - P08 BYF 42 _ vintage LLama .22 -


----------



## Towerguy

Shot my Wilson Combat CQB Elite this am.


----------



## tcmx3

thebradleycrew said:


> Another reason for using supersonic ammunition in a handgun with a suppressor: home defense. I keep an Agency Arms G19 suppressed by my bedside. If I ever have to use it inside the house, I don't want to be deaf, and it will keep muzzle flash down in the dark of night allowing for better follow-up shots. I wouldn't use subsonic ammo for self defense, generally, unless we are talking 300BLK, in which case I say, hell yeah.



as a tinnitus sufferer, I have enjoyed suppressed pistols on the occasion I've been able to use one, even with hearing protection.

anything that can bring the SPL down without ruining the experience is a win in my book. same with guitar amps, motorcycles, etc.


----------



## rstcso

tcmx3 said:


> as a tinnitus sufferer...


I hear you. Actually, I can't hear very good at all. Grew up shooting guns and riding dirt bikes without baffles and street bikes with headers. Had to get a hearing waiver at 17-years-old to be able to join the US Air Force. I can't even remember what it's like to not have continuous frequencies droning in my ears.


----------



## schutzen-jager

long gun today hand guns tomorrow - early AM before temp reached 99 - one piece at a time Remington .22 - 10 shots at 50 yards , fore end rested on range bag -


----------



## playero

I usually shoot this


----------



## playero

by the way there is a rock island auction with some collectible guns that are amazing








Collectible Firearms for Serious Gun Collectors


Rock Island Auction holds over 12 gun auctions per year. We buy & sell collectible firearms for serious gun collectors, including antique firearms & military arms. Click now to start selling your guns & investing in collectables today.




www.rockislandauction.com


----------



## Kgp

playero said:


> I usually shoot this


I have the same one, same finish! last I checked, price was going through the roof. Great design, very accurate. Shame they don’t make it anymore. I’d love to get some wood grips for it.


----------



## panda

Kgp said:


> I have the same one, same finish! last I checked, price was going through the roof. Great design, very accurate. Shame they don’t make it anymore. I’d love to get some wood grips for it.


unfortunately I had to sell it to fund car stuff. I will get a cz shadow 2 sa most likely next.


----------



## Grayswandir

Blanks...thank God!


----------



## schutzen-jager

90+ degrees at 10 am this morning , so only 2 clips + back home to the a/c ! - CZ52


----------



## playero

Kgp said:


> I have the same one, same finish! last I checked, price was going through the roof. Great design, very accurate. Shame they don’t make it anymore. I’d love to get some wood grips for it.


I have wood gips but they add a little more wide grip.


----------



## playero

Kgp said:


> I have the same one, same finish! last I checked, price was going through the roof. Great design, very accurate. Shame they don’t make it anymore. I’d love to get some wood grips for it.


anyway the one in rock island auctions went for over 5 thousand


----------



## Kgp

playero said:


> anyway the one in rock island auctions went for over 5 thousand


Wow! Must have been one of theta re ones.


----------



## bkultra

Not exactly shooting it yet, as I just picked it up a few hours ago. I felt obligated to buy it, as I recently lost all my other firearms in a tragic boating accident. 

Staccato C2 DPO


----------



## bkultra

Waiting on the optic (Acro P2) but otherwise nearing it's final form. Thanks @HalfBloodHobbit for pointing me towards the APC awhile back.


----------



## bahamaroot

My Smith 686 6" .357 better known as Dirty Harry Jr.


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

bkultra said:


> Waiting on the optic (Acro P2) but otherwise nearing it's final form. Thanks @HalfBloodHobbit for pointing me towards the APC awhile back.
> View attachment 182632



Niiiiice, btw the lower has the internal dimensions of an AR receiver, pick up one of these and throw it in there. You'll feel like Jerry Miculek









TriggerTech AR Drop in Triggers


TriggerTech AR Drop in Triggers




triggertech.com


----------



## Luftmensch

Genuine curiosity here,

I know I am talking to a biased sample in this thread. The past couple of pages seem reasonable - so I assume I will get reasonable answers.

A Canadian asked about American gun culture [post #450]. I am an Australian. I dont really care about 'the why'... It is a culture. But I am curious about the spectrum of emotional investment/identity in the activity.

I know there is a vocal group who entangle ownership with political ideologies like 'freedom' and 'patriotism'. That said... surely the majority of gun owners are entertained by the activity but are not ideological?? I assume that the majority of this majority would reevaluate their ownership if their life context changed??

For example.... imagine a person who currently likes an activity (surfing, mountain biking, skiing... whatever).... suppose their life circumstances change. They are faced with a choice to move to another city. Perhaps they get offered a better job? Or perhaps they have to care for a sick relative? Unfortunately this new city does not provide for their activity. Sure... there is a minority who will say "I can't live without surfing... I am _not_ going to move". Yet I imagine the majority will say "I love surfing... but I should move... I will give up surfing and find a new activity over there..."?

Can I view the majority of American gun ownership in a similar way??


----------



## Michi

That's what I shoot with:


----------



## blokey

Luftmensch said:


> Genuine curiosity here,
> 
> I know I am talking to a biased sample in this thread. The past couple of pages seem reasonable - so I assume I will get reasonable answers.
> 
> A Canadian asked about American gun culture [post #450]. I am an Australian. I dont really care about 'the why'... It is a culture. But I am curious about the spectrum of emotional investment/identity in the activity.
> 
> I know there is a vocal group who entangle ownership with political ideologies like 'freedom' and 'patriotism'. That said... surely the majority of gun owners are entertained by the activity but are not ideological?? I assume that the majority of this majority would reevaluate their ownership if their life context changed??
> 
> For example.... imagine a person who currently likes an activity (surfing, mountain biking, skiing... whatever).... suppose their life circumstances change. They are faced with a choice to move to another city. Perhaps they get offered a better job? Or perhaps they have to care for a sick relative? Unfortunately this new city does not provide for their activity. Sure... there is a minority who will say "I can't live without surfing... I am _not_ going to move". Yet I imagine the majority will say "I love surfing... but I should move... I will give up surfing and find a new activity over there..."?
> 
> Can I view the majority of American gun ownership in a similar way??


Honestly I think there is a misconception about Canadian gun laws, when I lived in Vancouver I did a 2 day safety class and did a written exam then got my license month later. While it may not be as easy as some of the states, but certainly not hard, for a foreign resident it is actually easier than California.


----------



## Luftmensch

Michi said:


> That's what I shoot with:



I shoot with this:








Seriously though.... attitudes towards guns are very different in Australia. I dont understand America's relationship with guns. I know the arms industry and gun lobbies are powerful in America. But it is clearly more than that... it seems cultural... it seems dyed-in-the-wool. Maybe it is just so normalised??? I guess I am trying to figure out the mindset of a _non-fanatic_ whos owns a small arsenal.


----------



## MSicardCutlery

Luftmensch said:


> I shoot with this:
> 
> View attachment 182737
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though.... attitudes towards guns are very different in Australia. I dont understand America's relationship with guns. I know the arms industry and gun lobbies are powerful in America. But it is clearly more than that... it seems cultural... it seems dyed-in-the-wool. Maybe it is just so normalised??? I guess I am trying to figure out the mindset of a _non-fanatic_ whos owns a small arsenal.


Every different gun has its own aesthetic quality, every different chambering too. There's a certain relationship between a user and their tools, and each feels a little different, some are just plain interesting. And on top of that, compared to rifles, handguns are extremely difficult to fire very accurately. Just the pressure on each of your fingers will change your point of impact. 

As for opposition to laws restricting their use, I'm pretty understanding. I think concealed carry is a more of a public danger, and people that do should be held to the same standards as police officers for their marksmanship, but also their judgement. In any safe society, it shouldn't be a necessity anyways. I don't think that a registry process that verifies licenses is a bad idea. 

What I do take issue with is that in a country (Canada) where even the national policing agency (RCMP) says that an estimated 90% of crime guns come in from the states, and a further 25% of those crime guns are only deemed firearms because they were used criminally (IE a pellet gun under a certain velocity level isn't a gun in the eyes of the law, until you do something illegal with it), every two bit politician is pushing for a handgun ban because it will gain them a little popularity. We're already regulated like crazy, the RCMP data base runs a criminal check on you every day if you have a gun license, and if you get charged with even an unrelated felony you will lose your firearms. We're the wrong target, but we're an easy target.


----------



## bahamaroot

MSicardCutlery said:


> ....What I do take issue with is that in a country (Canada)....every two bit politician is pushing for a handgun ban because it will gain them a little popularity....


In the states it's just the opposite. Every two bit politician is pushing loosening gun laws, like it's not easy enough already to get a gun, because it will gain them a little popularity.


----------



## MSicardCutlery

Yeah, partisan politics is frustrating, and irresponsible to say the least.


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

Luftmensch said:


> Genuine curiosity here,
> 
> I know I am talking to a biased sample in this thread. The past couple of pages seem reasonable - so I assume I will get reasonable answers.
> 
> A Canadian asked about American gun culture [post #450]. I am an Australian. I dont really care about 'the why'... It is a culture. But I am curious about the spectrum of emotional investment/identity in the activity.
> 
> I know there is a vocal group who entangle ownership with political ideologies like 'freedom' and 'patriotism'. That said... surely the majority of gun owners are entertained by the activity but are not ideological?? I assume that the majority of this majority would reevaluate their ownership if their life context changed??
> 
> For example.... imagine a person who currently likes an activity (surfing, mountain biking, skiing... whatever).... suppose their life circumstances change. They are faced with a choice to move to another city. Perhaps they get offered a better job? Or perhaps they have to care for a sick relative? Unfortunately this new city does not provide for their activity. Sure... there is a minority who will say "I can't live without surfing... I am _not_ going to move". Yet I imagine the majority will say "I love surfing... but I should move... I will give up surfing and find a new activity over there..."?
> 
> Can I view the majority of American gun ownership in a similar way??


Very good questions, but I think it's impossible to reduce Americans' attachment to guns as a matter of single causality. Certainly there are sport shooters that own firearms primarily as hobbyists of even athletes, just like someone who goes to the track or drag races on weekends is incredibly enamored with the automobile. However much like a souped up muscle car is engrained in culture and freedom coming out of the bootlegging days during Prohibition back when moonshine and whiskey runners would outrun the cops, the firearm is even more integrated as a symbol and exercise of freedom as a check on the police state. Americans are very wary of authoritarians having a monopoly on power. Most Americans who own a gun recognize that the inalienable right to self defense does not exist without the practical means to self defense; it's the one and only effective means for marginalized folks to protect their life and liberty, particularly against individuals who are bigger and stronger, it's the great equalizer that prevents women, the disabled and old folks from being hapless victims of evil, able bodied men. The firearm is further embedded into culture for folks who subsistence hunt or rely on game meat to feed their family in a manner that's both financially and ecologically sustainable and highly nutritious, that wouldn't be possible out of pocket buying from the store. If I hit my bag limit during deer season I save thousands of dollars in food cost annually. For myself and many other gun owners firearms are integrated into our way of life, as a tool to provide and a tool to protect, so it's much more than a hobbyist's infatuation with the toys of his hobby.


----------



## e30Birdy

bahamaroot said:


> My Smith 686 6" .357 better known as Dirty Harry Jr.


My dad had one of these while we were growing up and man did that thing kick like a mule while I was young. I remember my first shot with it almost ripping the thing out of my hand because I was sure not ready. Fun times but i had more fun with the Glock 19 or our snub nose .38 special, don't remember which brand it was.


----------



## Luftmensch

HalfBloodHobbit said:


> Very good questions, but I think it's impossible to reduce Americans' attachment to guns as a matter of single causality. Certainly there are sport shooters that own firearms primarily as hobbyists of even athletes, just like someone who goes to the track or drag races on weekends is incredibly enamored with the automobile. However much like a souped up muscle car is engrained in culture and freedom coming out of the bootlegging days during Prohibition back when moonshine and whiskey runners would outrun the cops, the firearm is even more integrated as a symbol and exercise of freedom as a check on the police state. Americans are very wary of authoritarians having a monopoly on power. Most Americans who own a gun recognize that the inalienable right to self defense does not exist without the practical means to self defense; it's the one and only effective means for marginalized folks to protect their life and liberty, particularly against individuals who are bigger and stronger, it's the great equalizer that prevents women, the disabled and old folks from being hapless victims of evil, able bodied men. The firearm is further embedded into culture for folks who subsistence hunt or rely on game meat to feed their family in a manner that's both financially and ecologically sustainable and highly nutritious, that wouldn't be possible out of pocket buying from the store. If I hit my bag limit during deer season I save thousands of dollars in food cost annually. For myself and many other gun owners firearms are integrated into our way of life, as a tool to provide and a tool to protect, so it's much more than a hobbyist's infatuation with the toys of his hobby.



Thanks! 

I am aware of many of those motivations. True!!! It is absolutely multifactorial. I still can't empathise with them. I can't see a reasonable logic... or truly understand them on an emotional level. But that is 'culture'... I dont have to understand it or like it. That is America's business and not mine...

I also want to emphasise... I recognise it would be naive of me to say I would arrive at the same conclusion under _any_ scenario. Broadly speaking; Australia is safe, Australia does not have guns. I do not _need_ or want a gun (here in my own culture and context). But I am aware; if I was born in St Louis or Baltimore... I am sure my attitude would be different.


----------



## Michi

In Germany, where I grew up, there is no such thing as a right to carry arms. As far as I know, this is a uniquely American concept. Instead of having a right to own a gun, it is a privilege that society bestows on me if I am deemed trustworthy enough, and only if I can show good reason as to why I should be be allowed to own a gun.

It is similar in Australia. The details may vary, but the principle is largely the same. If I want to own a gun, I have to show good cause and good character.

When I watch this entire debate play itself out time and time again in the US, I keep being surprised as to the categorical resistance to any kind of gun control whatsoever. To me, it's a no-brainer to have some minimal amount of safe-guards in place. If I have a history of mental instability, or violence towards others, it seems only common sense to say "giving a gun to this guy might be a bad idea."

If background checks would be tightened in the US, the people who can (more or less) be trusted to have a gun wouldn't lose access. But, regardless, any kind of control, no matter how minor, is met with fierce resistance.

I guess the worry on the pro-gun side is that any such move would be the thin end of the wedge. (Not a totally unreasonable position to take, IMO.)


----------



## bahamaroot

Michi said:


> ....it seems only common sense to say "giving a gun to this guy might be a bad idea."


That's the problem in America, it's not about common sense anymore it's about who's pockets get lined the most and we've also become an "it's all about me" society. Another MAJOR problem is that people forget that the constitution was written 250 years ago and "the right to keep and bare arms" had an entirely different meaning and purpose back then. Too many just can't or refuse to see that no other country in the world has the gun violence we do and for a simple reason....


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

Luftmensch said:


> I shoot with this:
> 
> View attachment 182737
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though.... attitudes towards guns are very different in Australia. I dont understand America's relationship with guns. I know the arms industry and gun lobbies are powerful in America. But it is clearly more than that... it seems cultural... it seems dyed-in-the-wool. Maybe it is just so normalised??? I guess I am trying to figure out the mindset of a _non-fanatic_ whos owns a small arsenal.





Michi said:


> In Germany, where I grew up, there is no such thing as a right to carry arms. As far as I know, this is a uniquely American concept. Instead of having a right to own a gun, it is a privilege that society bestows on me if I am deemed trustworthy enough, and only if I can show good reason as to why I should be be allowed to own a gun.
> 
> It is similar in Australia. The details may vary, but the principle is largely the same. If I want to own a gun, I have to show good cause and good character.
> 
> When I watch this entire debate play itself out time and time again in the US, I keep being surprised as to the categorical resistance to any kind of gun control whatsoever. To me, it's a no-brainer to have some minimal amount of safe-guards in place. If I have a history of mental instability, or violence towards others, it seems only common sense to say "giving a gun to this guy might be a bad idea."
> 
> If background checks would be tightened in the US, the people who can (more or less) be trusted to have a gun wouldn't lose access. But, regardless, any kind of control, no matter how minor, is met with fierce resistance.
> 
> I guess the worry on the pro-gun side is that any such move would be the thin end of the wedge. (Not a totally unreasonable position to take, IMO.)


Both the first and second amendments are a uniquely American concept, the right to self defense is an inalienable natural right, not a privilege society bestows upon you, and removal of the most effective means to self defense is a de facto ban on the right itself. Self defense is a good reason as to why somebody should be allowed to own a gun. The likelihood that my house will burn down is lower than the likelihood of me being the victim of a violent crime, but I still have fire multiple fire extinguishers just in case.

It seems that most Europeans don't understand the strictures of US gun control; short barreled rifles, assault rifles, submachine guns, machine guns, and suppressors are all strictly regulated NFA items with waiting periods of up to one year, a thorough FBI background check and a $200 tax stamp per item, and all automatic or select fire weapons manufactured after 1986 are outright banned. We also have federal background checks for all gun purchases from dealers, including sales at gun shows from FFL holders. Individuals with a violent criminal record or have been adjudicated mentally unfit are banned from gun ownership, or even living in a residence that has firearms present. Most states require a permit and safety/training courses for CCW licenses, and CCW permit holders have significantly lower rates of criminality than actual police officers. To date there hasn't been a mass shooting perpetrated by a ccw permit holder. 

I think a certain demographic of German citizens don't have the same trust in the benevolence and goodwill of the German government as you do, I often wonder as someone whose grandfather was Polish and lost family members during the Nazi occupation, how the Warsaw uprising would have gone if they weren't completely unarmed. The idea that the government and the police state can be trusted with any and all classes of firearms and weaponry for defense, but the citizens cannot be, is an absurd position with even the most cursory glance at recent world history.

Gun control and gun confiscation are always incremental, and there are many safety measures that the pro gun side supports that the anti gun crowd will reject. Tax rebates for gun safes (the majority of firearm deaths are accidents from unsecured guns, and many mass shooters access unsecured weapons from parents or relatives), gun safety training in schools just like DARE and stranger danger programs, mandated inpatient psychiatric care for demonstrations of homicidal ideation, stipends for school staff willing to undergo tactical training, and making the NICS background check system public access for secondary market transfers.


----------



## MarcelNL

eeerrr, so because the crime rate is high you need guns...which means that there has been so little progress in crime prevention over 250 years that you need a gun in your house? Guns for hunting or to defend againstbig bad wildlife I can understand, when folks live in rural places, would it not be more logical to do something about the crime rate?

I dunno, I have no horse in this race yet it seems as if the arguments of crime rate and Nazi history are a bit strange and one sided. 

What about the dealing at gun conventions, where all kind of arms can be sold pretty easily, or conversion kits making a gun a full auto?

We Europeans for sure are not aware about the regulations that are in place, we just see that none of them is particularly effective in preventing mass shootings and other gun violence.


----------



## bkultra

1981 Smith & Wesson model 64-2 (last year they offered pinned and recessed)


----------



## daveb

bahamaroot said:


> In the states it's just the opposite. Every two bit politician is pushing loosening gun laws, like it's not easy enough already to get a gun, because it will gain them a little popularity.



And every one bit politician is pushing more restrictive gun laws because it will gain them a little popularity.

Neither side is following any moral compass - just wagging their tail at whomever has snacks.


----------



## daveb

L, I think I fit the profile of enthusiast but not extremist. I don't think the black helicopters are coming - yet.

I have firearms for sport (competitive shotgunning), for hunting and for self defense.

My issue with restrictive gun laws is pretty simple. The laws only apply to the law abiding. Period.

I would have no problem with a debate about the applicability of the 2nd but arguing it's "meaning" is sophomoric at best.


----------



## Luftmensch

HalfBloodHobbit said:


> I think a certain demographic of German citizens don't have the same trust in the benevolence and goodwill of the German government as you do, I often wonder as someone whose grandfather was Polish and lost family members during the Nazi occupation, how the Warsaw uprising would have gone if they weren't completely unarmed.



WWII was _nasty_.... seriously nasty. It is a stain on humanity and really brings to question just how civilised are we?? 

Without wanting to being dramatic about it, I don't think it is good form to flirt with replaying historical events like these. Particularly if that simulation is done to support tangential beliefs. It is not respectful. The Warsaw Uprising was bloody. It is apparently the longest urban insurgency in WWII. The Home Army tried their hardest. While they may have been r_elatively poorly_ equipped... it is nonsense to assert they were unarmed. They were a militia supported by the allies via airdrops (from Italy).

European history is complex. The allies were uncomfortable bedfellows. Although Great Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union had a common enemy in the Nazis, their goals were different. The primary reason the Warsaw Uprising failed was poor coordination and different objectives between all the major players. As far as I can tell there is some debate as to whether the Soviets couldnt or _wouldnt_ support the Home Army. It very much looks like the Soviets _wouldnt_ help. Again, while the Soviets and Home Army both considered the Nazis an enemy, that did not make them allies. The Soviets had ambitions to annex the east of Poland and install a pro-Soviet government. The Home Army acted for the exiled Polish government in London and wanted to liberate Warsaw. They did not want Poland to become a pro-Soviet proxy. Hopefully it is clear these objectives are incompatible.

It looks like the Home Army calculated that they could flush out the Nazis just in time for a Soviet advance to arrive from the east. If this was the thought process, in retrospect it was a poor judgement. The Soviets halted their advance and the Germans regrouped. As they say; the rest is history.

Whatever the political web that caused the timing and events of the Warsaw Uprising, one thing is clear: asymmetric warfare favours the more powerful. A militia with assault rifles, submachine guns and heavy machine guns is no match for a hostile enemy with a full-blown war machine: tanks, artillery, and aeroplanes.

*Don't confuse militia for armies*.




HalfBloodHobbit said:


> The idea that the government and the police state can be trusted with any and all classes of firearms and weaponry for defense, but the citizens cannot be, is an absurd position with even the most cursory glance at recent world history.



This is what the Nazis did to Warsaw:





[source: Wikipedia]

85% of the buildings were destroyed: 25% as a result of the Uprising, 35% as a result of systematic German actions after the uprising. This is what a hostile military with no regard for life, history and culture can do. This is not something that can be prevented with light weaponry.

Since you mentioned the Warsaw Uprising in the same paragraph as 'the government and the police state'... The United States allocated 3.85% of GDP on military spending in 2022. By far the largest in the world... by some margin. I really, really....(really, really)... don't think the American government would ever turn against its people with the same psychopathy as the Nazis treated the Poles in Warsaw... but since we are playing this game.... Do you really think an American citizenry with only light arms would be much of a match for a hostile US military?? Entire city blocks would be razed to the ground before the militia could even take their first shot. It is a nonsense thought experiment. Again don't confuse militia for armies.

Your defence, and offence, against the 'government and the police state' is your vote.... not guns.


----------



## Luftmensch

daveb said:


> I have firearms for sport (competitive shotgunning), for hunting and for self defense.





It is not like Australia is gunless. We have a long and proud tradition of agriculture in the country. Guns are common enough in these communities. They are used as a tool - for managing land (shooting pests) and hunting. The laws reflect this. It is not difficult to get long barrel guns.

I was interested to read about owning handguns in Australia. If you want to own a handgun you _really_ have to be dedicated to shooting. You have to be a member of a club _and_ you have to compete a minimum number of times a year. In other words, you can't just idly own a handgun and keep it in your safe. You need to maintain your license by actively participating in a gun club. I did not know that!




daveb said:


> The laws only apply to the law abiding. Period.



Similar here.... or... I guess everywhere!!! Gangs still manage to traffic illegal handguns... they have even done it through the post office!!


----------



## daveb

Luftmensch said:


> It is not like Australia is gunless. We have a long and proud tradition of agriculture in the country. Guns are common enough in these communities. They are used as a tool - for managing land (shooting pests) and hunting. The laws reflect this. It is not difficult to get long barrel guns.


C'mon now. I know you use them to shoot the cute, cuddly, roos.


----------



## Luftmensch

daveb said:


> C'mon now. I know you use them to shoot the cute, cuddly, roos.





Nah man! Roos are dangerous. They conceal carry... they pack heat in their pouches. Best keep a wide berth!!


The Australian environment is often boom and bust. We're currently experiencing a La Nina - that means a cooler and wetter East Coast and northern Australia. Ask an Ozzie on the East coast right now... it is miserable!! We've had floods and it has been damp for weeks on end.

When a drought breaks, the land soaks and can become really fertile. Long grass is a great breeding ground for mice and rabbits. We have already had several waves of mouse plague because of the recent good conditions. The vegetation boom is also good for the larger mammals, like roos, which will also multiply when food is available. It hasnt happened yet, but when we enter drier conditions the vegetation will die back. A year or two later, the kangaroo population can outstrip the food supply. At that point government might do a cull. It is a shame but the animals can be starving and malnourished at this point. Generally it is illegal to kill kangaroos... but if a culling event has been issued, farmers may be approved to shoot animals on their property.

The typical way to kill a kangaroo is at dusk by writing off your car!

As a meat roo is lean and rather gamey. It is a healthy option. I think the best way to cook skippy is by searing it in a really hot pan. You dont want to go any further than medium rare. Any more and it will dry out and become tough. If you go to rare it can be chewy. I haven't tried... but now that I think about it... it could be a lean option for slow cooking.


----------



## Homechef

bahamaroot said:


> My Smith 686 6" .357 better known as Dirty Harry Jr.


I've got the same one with rubberized grips. Such a nice piece!


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

It's understandable that non-American members look down on us. Hey, the news is honest and tells the WHOLE story, right? Ahh, opinions, they are amusing. Real life experiences and credible research are what matters.


----------



## MarcelNL

I'm not so sure it is looking down upon 'you Americans', not understanding parts of society and priorities? for sure!


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Just to be clear, much of what I write is subjective, yet credible. I am retired US military, so the US Constitution is kind of my thing. Additionally, I've lived all over the world and have probably visited your country, if not lived there. There is no place I would rather live than the US. Let me make my next point very clear, despite what your "news" tells you. It is extremely safe to live here. The chances of you being shot are about the same as your country if you went into the wrong place at the wrong time. You know, criminals don't follow laws. And yes, there are guns you do not know about in your country. It is not easy to get a gun in the US legally, anyways. Federal background checks are done. Even I, with my military background and secret clearance, have been put "on hold" a few times while they did a further check. It's not as easy as ordering a kitchen knife, as some magazines would have you believe (yes, really). For the kid/adult in Texas? That is rooted in mental health; if not a gun, he would have found another way to kill and terrorize. So, what is the reason to own? To keep our government honest and in its place. Additionally, it doesn't take much thinking to realize the national security objective to having an armed population. We may be nuked, but we will never be invaded. Finally, while the news and politicians love to feast on this topic, considering there are 330+ million people here and how few crazy things like this happen. Yes, it is sad and bad. I'm sure some avenues to tighten laws to avoid mental health issues from getting them can be taken. But let's be real. ANYTHING that can possibly attribute to deaths requires some acceptance. Drugs, alcohol, abortion, high fat food, kitchen knives, slingshots, fireworks, and on and on. I personally have a concealed carry permit and do carry. While I've been lucky enough to have not had to, I am ready to protect the innocent if it comes to it. And make no argument, there are plenty of guns out there for all criminals to have an easy time doing crime. There are millions more of honest guns owners like us to make them think twice. If you deny any of what I wrote, that's ok. America is not for you, nothing bad about that. From a big picture perspective, I feel much safer living here than any other place in the world. Including where you live.

PS Out of all the global cities I have been to (overnight), which is quite a lot, do you know the only one I've been jumped/attacked in?

Amsterdam. December 31, 2001.


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

Luftmensch said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I am aware of many of those motivations. True!!! It is absolutely multifactorial. I still can't empathise with them. I can't see a reasonable logic... or truly understand them on an emotional level. But that is 'culture'... I dont have to understand it or like it. That is America's business and not mine...
> 
> I also want to emphasise... I recognise it would be naive of me to say I would arrive at the same conclusion under _any_ scenario. Broadly speaking; Australia is safe, Australia does not have guns. I do not _need_ or want a gun (here in my own culture and context). But I am aware; if I was born in St Louis or Baltimore... I am sure my attitude would be different.





MarcelNL said:


> eeerrr, so because the crime rate is high you need guns...which means that there has been so little progress in crime prevention over 250 years that you need a gun in your house? Guns for hunting or to defend againstbig bad wildlife I can understand, when folks live in rural places, would it not be more logical to do something about the crime rate?
> 
> I dunno, I have no horse in this race yet it seems as if the arguments of crime rate and Nazi history are a bit strange and one sided.
> 
> What about the dealing at gun conventions, where all kind of arms can be sold pretty easily, or conversion kits making a gun a full auto?
> 
> We Europeans for sure are not aware about the regulations that are in place, we just see that none of them is particularly effective in preventing mass shootings and other gun violence.


Actually the homicide rate has been reduced by half since 1990, and has continued to decline markedly since the Clinton Assault weapons ban ended in 2004, so unlike common talking points the proliferation of weapons is increasing while homicide by firearm rate is decreasing. Even still, folks are far more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than a woodsman is to be a victim of an animal attack, possible exceptions for hunters on Kodiak Island or other remote places in Alaska with dense grizzly populations. I encounter black bear regularly in VA and they're actually quite skittish, so I don't carry a gun during bow season for protection. But it really comes down to a firearm as an effective deterrent and insurance policy for citizens, when the police state (even if it weren't incompetent, authoritarian and abusive) is minutes away when seconds count. The right to self defense is an inalienable natural right, and banning the only effective means to self defense is a de facto ban on the right itself. It seems very concerning that German citizens of all people would be so trusting in the benevolence of its government to have a monopoly on force, there's certainly a contingent from a certain demographic that's a bit more skeptical. 

As far as gun shows/conventions go, the vast majority of booths and tables are occupied by gun dealers with FFL's who are mandated to perform background checks on all sales including those at gun shows. Every now and then a private seller will rent space to liquidate a collection but that's not the norm. An easy solution for that would to make NICS public access and have kiosks available for background checks for secondary market transfers. Also there is no such thing as a conversion kit making a gun full auto; auto sears are illegal to manufacture for civilians to possess and a full auto conversion with an illegally manufactured auto sear requires milling/machining of the lower receiver; but at that point any machinist with a CNC could build an operational full auto firearm from the ground up if they were hell bent on committing a myriad of felonies.

The US is unique amongst first world countries in its culture, size, history and demographics and attempting to apply the same laws of socially insular ethnostates that are trusting of their government and police, to our melting pot of liberty minded citizens distrustful of an authoritarian police state, is as misguided as it would be ineffective. As for pragmatic solutions: making NICS public access for secondary market transfers, tax funded inpatient care for individuals demonstrating suicidal or homicidal ideation, tax rebates for gun storage safes and prosecution for unsecured weapons, mandatory gun safety classes alongside DARE and stranger danger programs in schools, and stipends for school officials willing to undergo tactical training and the ccw permit process. Raising the gun purchase age to 21 would also be reasonable but only as long as those under 21 are not legally considered adults and are not subject to the draft or allowed to enlist in the military.


----------



## HalfBloodHobbit

Luftmensch said:


> WWII was _nasty_.... seriously nasty. It is a stain on humanity and really brings to question just how civilised are we??
> 
> Without wanting to being dramatic about it, I don't think it is good form to flirt with replaying historical events like these. Particularly if that simulation is done to support tangential beliefs. It is not respectful. The Warsaw Uprising was bloody. It is apparently the longest urban insurgency in WWII. The Home Army tried their hardest. While they may have been r_elatively poorly_ equipped... it is nonsense to assert they were unarmed. They were a militia supported by the allies via airdrops (from Italy).
> 
> European history is complex. The allies were uncomfortable bedfellows. Although Great Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union had a common enemy in the Nazis, their goals were different. The primary reason the Warsaw Uprising failed was poor coordination and different objectives between all the major players. As far as I can tell there is some debate as to whether the Soviets couldnt or _wouldnt_ support the Home Army. It very much looks like the Soviets _wouldnt_ help. Again, while the Soviets and Home Army both considered the Nazis an enemy, that did not make them allies. The Soviets had ambitions to annex the east of Poland and install a pro-Soviet government. The Home Army acted for the exiled Polish government in London and wanted to liberate Warsaw. They did not want Poland to become a pro-Soviet proxy. Hopefully it is clear these objectives are incompatible.
> 
> It looks like the Home Army calculated that they could flush out the Nazis just in time for a Soviet advance to arrive from the east. If this was the thought process, in retrospect it was a poor judgement. The Soviets halted their advance and the Germans regrouped. As they say; the rest is history.
> 
> Whatever the political web that caused the timing and events of the Warsaw Uprising, one thing is clear: asymmetric warfare favours the more powerful. A militia with assault rifles, submachine guns and heavy machine guns is no match for a hostile enemy with a full-blown war machine: tanks, artillery, and aeroplanes.
> 
> *Don't confuse militia for armies*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what the Nazis did to Warsaw:
> 
> View attachment 182930
> 
> [source: Wikipedia]
> 
> 85% of the buildings were destroyed: 25% as a result of the Uprising, 35% as a result of systematic German actions after the uprising. This is what a hostile military with no regard for life, history and culture can do. This is not something that can be prevented with light weaponry.
> 
> Since you mentioned the Warsaw Uprising in the same paragraph as 'the government and the police state'... The United States allocated 3.85% of GDP on military spending in 2022. By far the largest in the world... by some margin. I really, really....(really, really)... don't think the American government would ever turn against its people with the same psychopathy as the Nazis treated the Poles in Warsaw... but since we are playing this game.... Do you really think an American citizenry with only light arms would be much of a match for a hostile US military?? Entire city blocks would be razed to the ground before the militia could even take their first shot. It is a nonsense thought experiment. Again don't confuse militia for armies.
> 
> Your defence, and offence, against the 'government and the police state' is your vote.... not guns.


----------



## Luftmensch

I hope you understand this is a cultural exchange .

You are probably right! I _am_ probably thinking all the things you think i am thinking . But note... that is _not_ the same as saying them . I being careful to self moderate out of respect for this thread. My intention is not to come here and wreck it.

I keep using the word _culture_. You are raised with it or in it.... or... you aren't. I am not telling any American what to do about guns - that is for Yanks to decide in their own legal frameworks. But I hope you recognise it works both ways. Living in my culture... my opinions on guns are within the mainstream norm.

So far I can empathise with the following points. They strike me as something that has a cultural equivalence here:

Guns are fiddly mechanical things with different actions and haptics..... I am a dude.... I get that
Hunting and sport.... easy to understand
Self defence: I sympathise but dont empathise with the position. I understand (sympathise) that if I constantly felt threatened by my surroundings, I might want a gun for defence. But I dont _feel_ it (empathise) because I have never lived in that situation. I think gun density is a bit like mutually-assured-destruction. Once the gun density per capita is high enough, a rational strategy is to 'compete' by getting a gun.... again... this is not something I have lived.

What I dont understand is:



AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> To keep our government honest and in its place





HalfBloodHobbit said:


> But it really comes down to a firearm as an effective deterrent and insurance policy for citizens, when the police state (even if it weren't incompetent, authoritarian and abusive) is minutes away when seconds count. The right to self defense is an inalienable natural right, and banning the only effective means to self defense is a de facto ban on the right itself. It seems very concerning that German citizens of all people would be so trusting in the benevolence of its government to have a monopoly on force



Unless the people I interact with are a misrepresentative demographic of Australian society.... I can't draw on a widely-held cultural equivalence here. So I dont resonate with these arguments. Communicating this point may be as futile as an atheist trying to convince a theist that gods do not exist. But you should try!! Can you explain the point in better detail why the relationship works (citizens owning guns = honest government).




Two points that I think are misrepresentations/unfair:



AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> The chances of you being shot are about the same as your country if you went into the wrong place at the wrong time.



No... I doubt that. True; there are places in America that are more safe than places in Australia. And vice versa. But if you look at gun homocide per 100,000 population per year: America has 4.46, Australia has 0.15. You can't credibly tell me I am just as likely to be shot in Australia as in America. In fact, it looks like the chance of me being shot in America are almost 30x higher than in Australia.

No judgement. This is not an argument for or against guns. I just don't think the quoted statement is well constructed.




HalfBloodHobbit said:


> socially insular ethnostates



I am not sure any of America's allies would appreciate being called "socially insular ethnostates". I am sure it would be simple enough to make a case for multiculturalism in the UK, Germany, France, Netherlands...etc. Since I am an Australian citizen, I will state a case for Australia.

Australia has one of the highest... if not _*the*_ highest immigration rate in the OECD. Almost 30% of Australia's population was born overseas. Again... perhaps the highest in OECD. Only half the population (51%) are at least third generation Australians (born in Australia, as were both of their parents). More than one-fifth (21%) of Australians speak a language other than English at home. Don't get me wrong... we have issues with racism... but Australia is hardly a "socially insular ethnostate"....

Besides which... I don't know that it is useful to correlate guns and multiculturalism in America. I have a hunch that if you did correlate gun culture and multiculturalism, you would find that American states with more multicultural populations had tougher gun laws. I could be wrong and am happy to be proven so... this is not an area i have looked at forensically.


----------



## Barmoley

Luftmensch said:


> A militia with assault rifles, submachine guns and heavy machine guns is no match for a hostile enemy with a full-blown war machine: tanks, artillery, and aeroplanes.
> 
> 
> *Don't confuse militia for armies*.
> 
> but since we are playing this game.... Do you really think an American citizenry with only light arms would be much of a match for a hostile US military?? Entire city blocks would be razed to the ground before the militia could even take their first shot. It is a nonsense thought experiment. Again don't confuse militia for armies.
> 
> Your defence, and offence, against the 'government and the police state' is your vote.... not guns.



Not understanding why armed citizenry "keeps the government on alert and in check" stems from the above postulates. In absolute terms what you say seems to be true and is one of the main arguments used for disarming civilians. The problem is that it is not that simple. As has already been stated if the US military was single minded and determined to subdue the population by wiping it out, destroying cities, infrastructure, etc then civilians with light arms would have very little chance. This would never happen, there is no point to it. No government would fully destroy its own citizens and its own country. The military is also not uniform, it is people, soldiers follow orders, but only to a point especially when fighting their own. So we are talking civil war type of a situation where military is split.

For our thought experiment, let's pretend that the military is uniform and wants to subdue civilians. Total destruction and annihilation of everything can't be the goal. The goals would be to take control, occupy, etc. Now, take a country as large and geographically varied as the US. How large would the military have to be to control it while your soldiers are being shot at from every house? The army has tanks and armored vehicles that are impervious to small arms, but soldiers are human. Soldiers need to eat, sleep, etc. They can't stay safe forever and any time they venture out they might get shot. Armored vehicles are limited in number and need fuel and repairs. How would it be possible to hold a country like that under control when surrounded by vastly superior numbers of hostile and armed civilians? The resources and simply number of soldiers required would be so enormous that it would make no sense to even attempt it. It would be possible if your citizens are not only unarmed, but also don't know how to use small arms. There are many examples in history when a technologically superior and better equipped and trained army wins all battles and yet looses over time and has to leave the country it subdued because winning battles and holding a hostile population under control long term are very different things. Holding a hostile population under control is very costly and impractical, this becomes infinitely more difficult when the population is also armed and trained.

Bottom line, on the surface it seems obvious that militia can't stand against modern military and in a head to head battle it obviously cannot. This is not what would happen though and the nightmare of even attempting something like that when your citizens are armed is enough of a deterrent to not attempt it in the first place. Any government that decided to instill totalitarian control over its citizens would have to first disarm them and historically this is what happens.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Luftmensch said:


> I hope you understand this is a cultural exchange . I do, and very welcome, at that.
> 
> You are probably right! I _am_ probably thinking all the things you think i am thinking . But note... that is _not_ the same as saying them . I being careful to self moderate out of respect for this thread. My intention is not to come here and wreck it.
> 
> I keep using the word _culture_. You are raised with it or in it.... or... you aren't. I am not telling any American what to do about guns - that is for Yanks to decide in their own legal frameworks. But I hope you recognise it works both ways. Living in my culture... my opinions on guns are within the mainstream norm. Yes, I utilize the word culture quite frequently, especially when discussing race relations in the US. Society has moved beyond just "race relations", to the point cultural norms and those associated with it, are what we are really speaking of.
> 
> So far I can empathise with the following points. They strike me as something that has a cultural equivalence here:
> 
> Guns are fiddly mechanical things with different actions and haptics..... I am a dude.... I get that
> Hunting and sport.... easy to understand - Generally speaking, easy to understand. But most, including me, do not hunt. More on that later.
> Self defence: I sympathise but dont empathise with the position. I understand (sympathise) that if I constantly felt threatened by my surroundings, I might want a gun for defence. But I dont _feel_ it (empathise) because I have never lived in that situation. I think gun density is a bit like mutually-assured-destruction. Once the gun density per capita is high enough, a rational strategy is to 'compete' by getting a gun.... again... this is not something I have lived. I cannot empathize either, thankfully. While I don't deny your country's history and difficulties arising from them, please understand the gun "culture" is deeply rooted in ours.
> 
> What I dont understand is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless the people I interact with are a misrepresentative demographic of Australian society.... I can't draw on a widely-held cultural equivalence here. So I dont resonate with these arguments. Communicating this point may be as futile as an atheist trying to convince a theist that gods do not exist. But you should try!! Can you explain the point in better detail why the relationship works (citizens owning guns = honest government). There is no cultural equivalence, so it's understandable you would not resonate with our arguments. Barmoley explained it well. As retired military, I can assure you there would be some "following orders" folks, but the significant ones (for example, special forces) would be for the people. Many that serve are gun people, with a long family history of service. I don't consider myself "right-wing", but many would just knowing my take on guns (and financial matters). I am a huge people person, and believe my meaning in life is to bring people happiness. I've voted for left candidates in the past, and probably will in the future. What does all this mean? The federal government now is all left/Democrats, with the very liberal media having their back (lying, and caught many times). The first argument they make is, "well, Trump...". I don't care about him, he is irrelevant to me. Where am I going with this? The left wants our guns (gone). Conspiracy theories aside, some really shady things have happened. First, the police waited an hour outside the Texas school while the shooter killed. That border control officer is the one that went in and killed him to stop the massacre. Second, supposedly this kid was on the FBI's watch list, how did he pass a background check that all legal gun purchasers have to go through? Hello...red flag? Even the kid that killed a bunch of people in New York was on the FBI's watch list. Too convenient, and as somebody that was in the US military for 20 years, my life/career would be over if I made that big of a mistake. And I was not that important. So, ignoring many other "red flags", we have an anti-gun government, Democrat supported media (you know, where people get their information), and apparently a defunct FBI that can't do their job. Or did they do it perfectly? The fact is, if the police went into the school immediately and stopped the shooter, problem minimized. If the FBI did their jobs, he wouldn't have gotten guns (legally). And btw, with 3D printers, undocumented guns are being made and it will only get worse. Globally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two points that I think are misrepresentations/unfair:
> 
> 
> 
> No... I doubt that. True; there are places in America that are more safe than places in Australia. And vice versa. But if you look at gun homocide per 100,000 population per year: America has 4.46, Australia has 0.15. You can't credibly tell me I am just as likely to be shot in Australia as in America. In fact, it looks like the chance of me being shot in America are almost 30x higher than in Australia. You are right, my apologies.
> 
> No judgement. This is not an argument for or against guns. I just don't think the quoted statement is well constructed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure any of America's allies would appreciate being called "socially insular ethnostates". I am sure it would be simple enough to make a case for multiculturalism in the UK, Germany, France, Netherlands...etc. Since I am an Australian citizen, I will state a case for Australia.
> 
> Australia has one of the highest... if not _*the*_ highest immigration rate in the OECD. Almost 30% of Australia's population was born overseas. Again... perhaps the highest in OECD. Only half the population (51%) are at least third generation Australians (born in Australia, as were both of their parents). More than one-fifth (21%) of Australians speak a language other than English at home. Don't get me wrong... we have issues with racism... but Australia is hardly a "socially insular ethnostate"....
> 
> Besides which... I don't know that it is useful to correlate guns and multiculturalism in America. I have a hunch that if you did correlate gun culture and multiculturalism, you would find that American states with more multicultural populations had tougher gun laws. I could be wrong and am happy to be proven so... this is not an area i have looked at forensically. Thank you for the intellectual discussion, the internet is not known for that. Just emotions slung around. Yes, the US is a very multicultural place, like Australia. Like most "dangerous" things, there is a culture behind it. As I alluded to earlier, my reason; I have attention-to-detail issues. This is why having a full, packed day is good for me. I've completed my bachelors and first master's degree while working full time (military and JP Morgan). I'm about done my second, and will probably work for another bank full time to finish out this MBA. Other than the house, cooking, baking, and travel...I keep busy. The gun connection? I love target practice to scratch that attention to detail itch. My point is my attention to details is pretty advanced, so I doubt most, if not all, I've highlighted is true. Whenever I see/read something from the media, I always look for what they are not telling me.






Luftmensch said:


> Question for you, as I do not have anything but the media to depend on, how has the Australian government been with enforcing Covid restrictions? Do you think it would be so extreme if your population was allowed to be armed? No judgments, just an honest question to get the brain moving.


----------



## Luftmensch

Barmoley said:


> Not understanding why armed citizenry "keeps the government on alert and in check" stems from the above postulates. In absolute terms what you say seems to be true and is one of the main arguments used for disarming civilians. The problem is that it is not that simple. As has already been stated if the US military was single minded and determined to subdue the population by wiping it out, destroying cities, infrastructure, etc then civilians with light arms would have very little chance. This would never happen, there is no point to it. No government would fully destroy its own citizens and its own country. The military is also not uniform, it is people, soldiers follow orders, but only to a point especially when fighting their own. So we are talking civil war type of a situation where military is split.
> 
> For our thought experiment, let's pretend that the military is uniform and wants to subdue civilians. Total destruction and annihilation of everything can't be the goal. The goals would be to take control, occupy, etc. Now, take a country as large and geographically varied as the US. How large would the military have to be to control it while your soldiers are being shot at from every house? The army has tanks and armored vehicles that are impervious to small arms, but soldiers are human. Soldiers need to eat, sleep, etc. They can't stay safe forever and any time they venture out they might get shot. Armored vehicles are limited in number and need fuel and repairs. How would it be possible to hold a country like that under control when surrounded by vastly superior numbers of hostile and armed civilians? The resources and simply number of soldiers required would be so enormous that it would make no sense to even attempt it. It would be possible if your citizens are not only unarmed, but also don't know how to use small arms. There are many examples in history when a technologically superior and better equipped and trained army wins all battles and yet looses over time and has to leave the country it subdued because winning battles and holding a hostile population under control long term are very different things. Holding a hostile population under control is very costly and impractical, this becomes infinitely more difficult when the population is also armed and trained.
> 
> Bottom line, on the surface it seems obvious that militia can't stand against modern military and in a head to head battle it obviously cannot. This is not what would happen though and the nightmare of even attempting something like that when your citizens are armed is enough of a deterrent to not attempt it in the first place. Any government that decided to instill totalitarian control over its citizens would have to first disarm them and historically this is what happens.



Thanks for the considered reply! I appreciate that.

I can see the origins of the idea post American Revolution. It makes sense that a colony would want to overthrow its detached overseas government. As a fledgling nation, I am sure there would be national anxiety about self defense. That all makes sense to me. What you said puts it into context. I guess I can also see how that gets embedded into a culture and echoes through the generations? Yet, I don't think it is necessary ~250 years later. Since independence, America has developed a lot of institutional checks and balances that would prevent the government from taking up arms against the population.

I guess my biggest difficulty, in the modern context, is the idea of a 'Government' as if it sits outside society? Again... this may have been the case in a colonial past... but America now owns America. Just like the army is not uniform... nor are Governments. Governments are also made up of people... and they gain legitimacy through the support of at least _some_ of the population (be that a majority, the military, the intelligencia, the oligarchs... whoever). In reality any armed conflict with the 'Government' is one side of society pitted against another. In other words, a civil war. And like you say... even the military could be split or disloyal. 

For modern democratic countries (e.g. the OECD), I don't think any of this what corruption of power looks like. Petty corruption. Misuse of taxes. Corporate capture. Jobs for mates. Pork barrelling. A lack of interest in public welfare. Treating political roles as a path to power and wealth instead of civil service. All these things _are_ corruptions of power happening right now. Much of this happens behind closed doors. An armed population does not serves as a deterrent. We need strong institutions. We need a strong fourth estate. We need an informed and politically engaged public!


----------



## MarcelNL

I found this article an interesting read;








Opinion: Here's the reason people tell me they want to buy an AR-15. And it's simply ludicrous | CNN


No weapon has been more in the public eye than the AR-15, in large part because of the tragic role it has played in some of this country's deadliest shootings, former DC police officer Michael Fanone writes. Fanone, who owns one of the weapons, writes that the AR-15 has the dubious distinction...




edition.cnn.com





With the recent incident in Berlin it seems that the cause for the incidents often is mental health, and that needs to be adressed....which is difficult enough. Taking away, or making the means to create large havoc away from folks that want to create havoc sounds like a great idea that should be pretty simple.


----------



## Luftmensch

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I've completed my bachelors and first master's degree while working full time (military and JP Morgan). I'm about done my second, and will probably work for another bank full time to finish out this MBA.





Wow! Nice one! Keeping the mind busy keeps us young. Good luck with it - I am sure you'll have no problem getting yourself over the line!




AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Question for you, as I do not have anything but the media to depend on, how has the Australian government been with enforcing Covid restrictions? Do you think it would be so extreme if your population was allowed to be armed? No judgments, just an honest question to get the brain moving.



I cant give a simple or direct answer. It is hard to see how that would change our current broader culture. In short the government (state and federal) _did_ have social license to establish the restrictions. So the outcome probably would have been the same.

Bare with me.... Australia flirts with the idea of a rebellious past. In many many ways colonial Australia was like the Wild West of America. It was a frontier country and the environment was harsh. We also had conflicts with the British who seemed impossibly far away. A famous one is the Eureka Stockade. Mythology developed around rebellious bushmen like Ned Kelly. He is a cultural icon - a symbol of rebellion and standing against authority. In some way he is Australia's Robin Hood... but it is not clear to me he "gave to the poor". In recent years we have fetishized our (and New Zealand's) First World War servicemen in what is called the ANZAC spirit. The spirit encapsulates a scepticism of authority and class. I dont know how we are perceived by the world.. but famous exports like Crocodile Dundee and Mad Max lean on the strong and independent stereotype.

Despite all this... modern Australians are quite law abiding and conformist. That said, I _do_ believe we have a larrikin culture. There is a subtly here. We like to laugh. We like to be cheeky. We like a little bit of mischief. We don't like taking things too seriously. We _are_ sceptical of arbitrary class structures. But none of this should be mistaken for being rebellious or anti-authoritarian. We are relatively law abiding... we might just joke about it!

This is a bit of background so that I can say: our anti-authoritarian streak is only skin deep. Broadly speaking, we trust our institutions. I dont think the majority of Australians saw Covid restrictions as extreme. The protests were pretty small. The majority got on with the job of doing what they had to. This doesn't mean the majority were happy either. It was stressful... but there was a period of mutual understanding. I should also mention that the government at the time could be classified as being on the political 'right'. That said, covid measures had bipartisan support.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

MarcelNL said:


> I found this article an interesting read;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion: Here's the reason people tell me they want to buy an AR-15. And it's simply ludicrous | CNN
> 
> 
> No weapon has been more in the public eye than the AR-15, in large part because of the tragic role it has played in some of this country's deadliest shootings, former DC police officer Michael Fanone writes. Fanone, who owns one of the weapons, writes that the AR-15 has the dubious distinction...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edition.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the recent incident in Berlin it seems that the cause for the incidents often is mental health, and that needs to be adressed....which is difficult enough. Taking away, or making the means to create large havoc away from folks that want to create havoc sounds like a great idea that should be pretty simple.


Ahh, CNN. No need to read, they lost all credibility long ago. Again, an opinion piece as well. The fact is, everything is an opinion when it comes down to it. I don't take my "opinions" from Fox News either, nor Trump for that matter. My opinions are based on a lifetime of education, travel, and experience.

Also, edited to add: Yes, on the surface to "defend against government corruption and communism" seems implausible. It always starts that way. There is no black and white, do this and that happens...strain of events. Like everything, there are many steps involved and world history supports the caution taken. The author states, "I think it's ludicrous to think you'd have to defend yourself from the government". I wonder historically how many people, now dead, would have something to say about that? It's ok if you don't agree with me. It's not your country, nor does your opinion really matter (for the US laws). People don't know...what they don't know. For capable, educated people who have lived the lifestyle (for 20 years) such as me, we know better. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Look, I've been to the Netherlands dozens of times, and have even been assaulted there. Nonetheless, I like it there. I support you for not having an armed population, because that works for you. Not for me, and I have quite a few companions that agree with me. Oh, and I don't use my AR15 for self-defense, I have other guns/weapons for that. The author is right, self-defense in closed quarters (such as your house) can lead to damage to the house etc. Like I wrote, I like target practice to scratch my attention to detail itch. Guns fascinate me, though I hope to never have to use in on another human being. The vast majority of people (here) feel the same way. You may not like my opinion, but I have as much credibility as the author of that article.


----------



## Barmoley

MarcelNL said:


> I found this article an interesting read;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion: Here's the reason people tell me they want to buy an AR-15. And it's simply ludicrous | CNN
> 
> 
> No weapon has been more in the public eye than the AR-15, in large part because of the tragic role it has played in some of this country's deadliest shootings, former DC police officer Michael Fanone writes. Fanone, who owns one of the weapons, writes that the AR-15 has the dubious distinction...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edition.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the recent incident in Berlin it seems that the cause for the incidents often is mental health, and that needs to be adressed....which is difficult enough. Taking away, or making the means to create large havoc away from folks that want to create havoc sounds like a great idea that should be pretty simple.


This is a terrible article which is full of inaccuracies and falsehoods. The author makes premises and then doesn't address them. He also contradicts himself and proposes ridiculous solutions. 

In the beginning he says people don't know why they buy AR-15 then when pressed they give a reason which he believes is ludicrous, fine it is his opinion, but they have reasons. Then he goes to say that these weapons were given to police after North Hollywood incident when police had to go to the gun store and buy them. They didn't buy them, this is minor, but just another minor piece of misinformation. In any case, he says that since then police has these weapons, then he goes on to say that he has no doubt that police in Uvalde last month wished they had these powerful weapons. So which is it do they have them or not? This all is intermixed with explanations about AR-15, how the bullet travels fast and can go through regular police body armor. That it can, as can the majority of centerfire rifle ammo. As can a knife for example, police body armor is good against lower powered pistol rounds especially hollow point ones. How this is relevant I don't know. Then he goes to say that ammo for AR-15 is very expensive and powerful, but the best part is his suggestion that confiscation is not needed that we should just make these illegal and arrest people who have these.

AR-15 is popular for many reasons. It is very ergonomic and works well for many people. It is modular and can be setup to be comfortable for many. You can change pretty much anything about it, stock, forearm, trigger, barrel, grip. Make it shorter or longer, lighter or heavier. Install any aiming device, change calibers, etc. People who like to tinker love these since possibilities are endless. These rifles are also accurate, reliable, easy to operate and to be accurate with. The round they fire is one of the weakest common, rifle rounds and as such has relatively low recoil making it easier to shoot accurately. The most common ammo for it is also some of the cheapest and most available centerfire ammo you can buy. Given all this it is no surprise people like these.

There are many other inaccuracies in this opinion piece, but what bugs me the most is his suggestion that law abiding citizens should be made criminals and arrested through no action of their own. He is saying that people that bought these rifles legally and have done nothing wrong should now be arrested unless they give their property to the state. 

*Simply ludicrous* is an excellent description of this opinion piece.


----------



## daveb

I'm a simple guy.


----------



## MarcelNL

It is a matter of opinion for sure, I do not believe in dismissing an article because it happens to be published through a carrier you do not agree with. You are right saying your credibility is the same as the author of that article, that is the beauty of a free press and freedom of speech IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the fascination with things that go boom...the stuff I made as kid/teenager would nowadays get me behind bars on the suspicion of being a terrorist, heck looking up those things on the net probably gets you flagged nowadays. I also think I'm one of the few drafted medics ever reaching something like a master marksman status (mind you, shooting a browning 9mm) in our rickety army. (we volunteered for a sporting event that involved shooting so we organized some shooting lessons, to find ourselves in a shooting cinema with a thousand rounds each and an instructor, courtesy of our superior) We winged through that shooting contest, being prepared shooting bullseye targets, finding ourselved only required to hit a target body which by that point we could hit blindfolded. So it's not as if I hate guns or anything, it's more that I see a trend in the US that troubles me.

I've traveled a LOT too, and the only place where the driver instructed me to stay put in the car and never get out no matter what happened was taking a shortcut through Newark getting to the airport, I thought he was joking but when we drove through the neighbourhood it became clear why. I've visited the US so many times I could not recall the number, a TSA officer once asked me how many visits this year sir, and I could not offer more than a guess.
Getting assaulted on the 31st of Dec in Amsterdam, yeah things happen especially on those days of the year, I do not think it's relevant for this story, as little as my anecdote is relevant.

The thing is, that what I do not (yet?) see is a search for a root cause which could lead to a fix, surely there are more folks worried about the numbers involved?
If the root cause or an easy partial fix/deterrant is not connected to the availability of guns I'd expect to see folks speaking about a solution towards what is thought to be the root cause, be it health care access or whatever.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Barmoley said:


> This is a terrible article which is full of inaccuracies and falsehoods. The author makes premises and then doesn't address them. He also contradicts himself and proposes ridiculous solutions.
> 
> In the beginning he says people don't know why they buy AR-15 then when pressed they give a reason which he believes is ludicrous, fine it is his opinion, but they have reasons. Then he goes to say that these weapons were given to police after North Hollywood incident when police had to go to the gun store and buy them. They didn't buy them, this is minor, but just another minor piece of misinformation. In any case, he says that since then police has these weapons, then he goes on to say that he has no doubt that police in Uvalde last month wished they had these powerful weapons. So which is it do they have them or not? This all is intermixed with explanations about AR-15, how the bullet travels fast and can go through regular police body armor. That it can, as can the majority of centerfire rifle ammo. As can a knife for example, police body armor is good against lower powered pistol rounds especially hollow point ones. How this is relevant I don't know. Then he goes to say that ammo for AR-15 is very expensive and powerful, but the best part is his suggestion that confiscation is not needed that we should just make these illegal and arrest people who have these.
> 
> AR-15 is popular for many reasons. It is very ergonomic and works well for many people. It is modular and can be setup to be comfortable for many. You can change pretty much anything about it, stock, forearm, trigger, barrel, grip. Make it shorter or longer, lighter or heavier. Install any aiming device, change calibers, etc. People who like to tinker love these since possibilities are endless. These rifles are also accurate, reliable, easy to operate and to be accurate with. The round they fire is one of the weakest common, rifle rounds and as such has relatively low recoil making it easier to shoot accurately. The most common ammo for it is also some of the cheapest and most available centerfire ammo you can buy. Given all this it is no surprise people like these.
> 
> There are many other inaccuracies in this opinion piece, but what bugs me the most is his suggestion that law abiding citizens should be made criminals and arrested through no action of their own. He is saying that people that bought these rifles legally and have done nothing wrong should now be arrested unless they give their property to the state.
> 
> *Simply ludicrous* is an excellent description of this opinion piece.


I agree 100%, and even moreso of an inaccuracy, is this "author" and the media have made the AR15 out to be a "powerful" gun. Don't get me wrong, there is a reason why it's the status quo in the military right now (that will be changing soon), but there are WAYYY more powerful weapons/rifles out there. For instance, my AR10 is .308 caliber, looks just like an AR15, yet is a larger, more powerful rifle. And that is just the start. On another spectrum, the air gun market has changed quite a bit since "Christmas Story". You'll, "shoot your eye out", is a best case scenario compared to what PSP air guns can do today. For instance, I have a .50 caliber PSP air rifle that will take out large game. Yet, you can buy these air rifles without any background check, in just about every country (in Europe). Without any "kickback", I am more accurate with these. Things to think about.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

MarcelNL said:


> It is a matter of opinion for sure, I do not believe in dismissing an article because it happens to be published through a carrier you do not agree with. You are right saying your credibility is the same as the author of that article, that is the beauty of a free press and freedom of speech IMO.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the fascination with things that go boom...the stuff I made as kid/teenager would nowadays get me behind bars on the suspicion of being a terrorist, heck looking up those things on the net probably gets you flagged nowadays. I also think I'm one of the few drafted medics ever reaching something like a master marksman status (mind you, shooting a browning 9mm) in our rickety army. (we volunteered for a sporting event that involved shooting so we organized some shooting lessons, to find ourselves in a shooting cinema with a thousand rounds each and an instructor, courtesy of our superior) We winged through that shooting contest, being prepared shooting bullseye targets, finding ourselved only required to hit a target body which by that point we could hit blindfolded. So it's not as if I hate guns or anything, it's more that I see a trend in the US that troubles me.
> 
> I've traveled a LOT too, and the only place where the driver instructed me to stay put in the car and never get out no matter what happened was taking a shortcut through Newark getting to the airport, I thought he was joking but when we drove through the neighbourhood it became clear why. I've visited the US so many times I could not recall the number, a TSA officer once asked me how many visits this year sir, and I could not offer more than a guess.
> Getting assaulted on the 31st of Dec in Amsterdam, yeah things happen especially on those days of the year, I do not think it's relevant for this story, as little as my anecdote is relevant.
> 
> The thing is, that what I do not (yet?) see is a search for a root cause which could lead to a fix, surely there are more folks worried about the numbers involved?
> If the root cause or an easy partial fix/deterrant is not connected to the availability of guns I'd expect to see folks speaking about a solution towards what is thought to be the root cause, be it health care access or whatever.


The simple fact is this: humans are, what humans are: emotional creatures. Making laws never stops those that are irrelevant to them (criminals). They are only good for law abiding people (i.e. the good guys/gals). I know, but we are so advanced as human beings...there has got to be a way! Nope. While yes, technologically we are advanced and generally speaking, we live in a relatively peaceful time period. But human emotions are still there, as irrational as they can be. Put a pause on shooting for a sec...why is there still pedophilia? Rape? Car theft? Invasions into countries? Brother, when you have that figured out, then you stop the bloodshed globally. Oh, then we have a new problem...overpopulation and lack of resources. Bring that emotion back, because as people go hungry and lack safety, basic human instincts arise. Back to the drawing board. You need to realize the depth and layers of your question. There are so many obstacles and layered issues to deal with when "solving" one problem. Without drugging the world population into numb, walking robots, I don't know the answer.


----------



## bkultra

"Free men do not ask permission to bear arms"


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## 9mmbhp

Interesting reading: The Second Amendment was inspired by British plans to disarm every American.

The full source is this essay “The Arms of All The People Should Be Taken Away” which ends with "_*The British resorted to every possible tactic to disarm the Americans—entrapment, false promises of “safekeeping,” banning imports, direct seizure and finally shooting persons bearing arms.*"_

One of the responses in the original tweet thread had this image/text:





Few people know of or remember the details of the Wounded Knee massacre but there are parallels to the British governance of the American colonists 100 years earlier: "*the U.S. federal government repeatedly signed and violated treaties with various Plains tribal leaders*." 

The lesson repeats throughout history: trust those who govern at your own peril.

PS: some curious irony in the image's text; the second use of "cavalry" is mis-spelled "Calvary" -- _Calvary_ is the hill on which Jesus was crucified.


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## MarcelNL

So just making sure I get this right, are you implying that the general US public today needs guns because the US army slaughtered natives that resisted outsiders invading their land, or because there was a war between the invaders and the British, another invader?

Those who govern in a democracy, are the people. If democracy fails I get the point, yet how often do established democracies fail?


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

MarcelNL said:


> So just making sure I get this right, are you implying that the general US public today needs guns because the US army slaughtered natives that resisted outsiders invading their land, or because there was a war between the invaders and the British, another invader?
> 
> Those who govern in a democracy, are the people. If democracy fails I get the point, yet how often do established democracies fail?


Just to be clear the United States is a Republic, not a Democracy.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Just for clarity, many Republics have fallen. The famous one, Rome.









Lessons in the Decline of Democracy From the Ruined Roman Republic


A new book argues that violent rhetoric and disregard for political norms was the beginning of Rome's end




www.smithsonianmag.com


----------



## labor of love

MarcelNL said:


> So just making sure I get this right, are you implying that the general US public today needs guns because the US army slaughtered natives that resisted outsiders invading their land, or because there was a war between the invaders and the British, another invader?
> 
> Those who govern in a democracy, are the people. If democracy fails I get the point, yet how often do established democracies fail?


I’d like to thank the democratically elected president of Mexico, Antonio López de Santa Anna for failing miserably in every conceivable way during the Mexican-American War and wisely selling 30,000 square miles to the United States.


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## MarcelNL

sure, however that semantic discussion is IMO besides the point... more guns must be the answer to mass shootings.









democracy - Rousseau


When compared with Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau sometimes seems the more radical democrat, though a close reading of his work shows that, in important respects, Rousseau’s conception of democracy is narrower than Locke’s. Indeed, in his most influential work of political philosophy, The Social...



www.britannica.com


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

MarcelNL said:


> sure, however that semantic discussion is IMO besides the point... more guns must be the answer to mass shootings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> democracy - Rousseau
> 
> 
> When compared with Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau sometimes seems the more radical democrat, though a close reading of his work shows that, in important respects, Rousseau’s conception of democracy is narrower than Locke’s. Indeed, in his most influential work of political philosophy, The Social...
> 
> 
> 
> www.britannica.com


Honest question: why do you feel it's your place to bring moral superiority to this thread? If you are anti-gun, why even comment? Plenty of threads I don't comment in that have zero interest to me, and I'm sure I could display some bit of moral superiority complex into them. You have your answers, in that there are none that you could possibly understand and connect to, yet you still post? I'm sorry if that's rude, but these days the moral justice police are everywhere and it gets tiring.


----------



## Barmoley

MarcelNL said:


> So just making sure I get this right, are you implying that the general US public today needs guns because the US army slaughtered natives that resisted outsiders invading their land, or because there was a war between the invaders and the British, another invader?
> 
> Those who govern in a democracy, are the people. If democracy fails I get the point, yet how often do established democracies fail?


I think at this point we are running into the cultural differences that are very difficult to explain. Independence, self relience and gun ownership are so deeply ingrained into the US culture that it is difficult to explain unless you live in the US. After all it is part of the constitution of this country and 250 years don’t change a thing. Technology is different, but humans are the same. Moreover, many in the US feel the same way you do and yet the rest that disagree don’t force them to comply even though one might think that since they have weapons they could or would. On the contrary the ones that are against guns, in order to feel safe, are trying to disarm everyone for the sake of safety at any cost. We just have to agree to disagree at this point. Clearly the US system works and works very well, it is far from perfect, but it works. I think that at this point we gave you guys all the reasons we could. You still don’t get it and that is ok, there is absolutely no way for us to convince you. This thread is not for you, you won’t get it. Just accept that there is a cultural difference that you might not understand or agree with and move on.


----------



## 9mmbhp

MarcelNL said:


> So just making sure I get this right, are you implying that the general US public today needs guns because the US army slaughtered natives that resisted outsiders invading their land, or because there was a war between the invaders and the British, another invader?
> 
> Those who govern in a democracy, are the people. If democracy fails I get the point, yet how often do established democracies fail?



Not implying anything beyond why the Second Amendment exists in the foundational document of the United States Government.

The First Amendment guarantees the people have a voice in how they are governed.
The Second Amendment guarantees them the means to ensure that continues.

The material in the links demonstrates why these were important: every government becomes untrustworthy eventually.


----------



## 9mmbhp

MarcelNL said:


> more guns must be the answer to mass shootings.


Guns don't cause mass shootings. 
Each shot required a human to pull the trigger.

Some non-gun mass-casualty events over the past few decades:

oil and gasoline used to commit arson and blow up cars
nails and propane tanks used to make IEDs
nitrogen fertilizer used to make fuel-air explosives
cars/SUVs used to run people over
jets hijacked with box cutters were used to ram buildings
Humans perpetrate violence.


----------



## Qapla'

MarcelNL said:


> So just making sure I get this right, are you implying that the general US public today needs guns because the US army slaughtered natives that resisted outsiders invading their land, or because there was a war between the invaders and the British, another invader?


Need? Rights aren't based on need. If they were, they wouldn't exist; anyone can point out that humanity has survived most of its existence without what we know of as freedom of speech, the right to a trial, prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment, etc.



> Those who govern in a democracy, are the people. If democracy fails I get the point, yet how often do established democracies fail?


Democratically elected governments have turned tyrannous and/or democidal before.


----------



## daveb

MarcelNL said:


> Those who govern in a democracy, are the people. If democracy fails I get the point, yet how often do established democracies fail?


Ask the "people" in Venezuela.

Note that defending against Govt tyranny is not why I own firearms. But.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

9mmbhp said:


> Guns don't cause mass shootings.
> Each shot required a human to pull the trigger.
> 
> Some non-gun mass-casualty events over the past few decades:
> 
> oil and gasoline used to commit arson and blow up cars
> nails and propane tanks used to make IEDs
> nitrogen fertilizer used to make fuel-air explosives
> cars/SUVs used to run people over
> jets hijacked with box cutters were used to ram buildings
> Humans perpetrate violence.


And if guns were gone, expect A LOT more of this. If fact, what dangerous and sharp thing is in about every household? Slippery slope that affects us ALL.


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## MarcelNL

let's keep it at a cultural difference, I was looking for some sort of explanation in an attempt to understand the lack of what I think is a visible concern about mass shootings, or any idea about what to do about them. I'm well aware of the right to arms in the US, and that's fine with me. It's just that to me the reasons for that right might well have changed over the 200 something years the US as we know it does exist, but on the other hand that may well prove to be too short a period to make the felt need go away in the mindset.
If my questioning came across as being moralistically superior I apologize, it was/is a serious attempt to understand, some of the responses were let's say vastly culturally different.


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## bkultra

"To conquer a nation, you must first disarm its citizens."

-Adolf Hitler

If he's for it, put me down as against


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## daveb

Eva was kind of hot.....


----------



## sansho

MarcelNL said:


> I found this article an interesting read;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion: Here's the reason people tell me they want to buy an AR-15. And it's simply ludicrous | CNN
> 
> 
> No weapon has been more in the public eye than the AR-15, in large part because of the tragic role it has played in some of this country's deadliest shootings, former DC police officer Michael Fanone writes. Fanone, who owns one of the weapons, writes that the AR-15 has the dubious distinction...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edition.cnn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



interesting opinion piece. got a few chuckles reading it

in addition to what @Barmoley said...



> Usually, the motivation for purchasing the AR-15 is simple: People want one because they want one.



seriously... am i crazy for not seeing anything wrong with that?



> Most times, the person who buys an AR-15 comes into the store already knowing that they intend to purchase one.



i've never personally heard of anyone impulse buying a gun. by this i mean that no one i personally know has ever gone into a store knowing they wanted a gun and then just bought whatever was available. maybe a small compromise if the specific style or something was unavailable, but never just a random gun.
i have always known _exactly_ what i wanted well in advance of buying it. what's this guy talking about? lol


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

MarcelNL said:


> let's keep it at a cultural difference, I was looking for some sort of explanation in an attempt to understand the lack of what I think is a visible concern about mass shootings, or any idea about what to do about them. I'm well aware of the right to arms in the US, and that's fine with me. It's just that to me the reasons for that right might well have changed over the 200 something years the US as we know it does exist, but on the other hand that may well prove to be too short a period to make the felt need go away in the mindset.
> If my questioning came across as being moralistically superior I apologize, it was/is a serious attempt to understand, some of the responses were let's say vastly culturally different.


The thing about time...it's irrelevant. People will always be people. As such, watch your back.


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## Greasylake

Also, the part in the article where the author said the guys in the North Hollywood shootout had semi-auto rifles is just plain wrong. The guys illegally purchased semi auto rifles (illegally purchased because they were already felons) and then ultra-illegally converted them into full auto rifles. Just wanted to clear that up to show how out gunned the cops were with their shotguns and pistols at long range.

Also, .223 ammo is like .40 a round, not over a dollar.


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## Luftmensch

bkultra said:


> "To conquer a nation, you must first disarm its citizens."



I'm always wary of "quoting" dictators.

This quote is controversial. It cannot be directly attributed to Hitler. It seems he did say similar things... albeit far less terse and bumper-sticker worthy. It also looks like was talking in the context of being an occupying force. So it might not be directly relevant anyway. Any army that is occupying a territory (for the right or the wrong reasons) will want to disarm the locals. It is a not particularly insightful tactic.


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## labor of love

Luftmensch said:


> Any army that is occupying a territory (for the right or the wrong reasons) will want to disarm the locals. It is a not particularly insightful tactic.


Lol, that’s a pretty good argument for gun ownership ngl


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## Luftmensch

labor of love said:


> Lol, that’s a pretty good argument for gun ownership ngl



Having aggressive neighbours is certainly a good reason to have a well resourced military. I won't argue against that... and the world seems to be lacing up its boots right now...

I'm not commenting for or against the argument encapsulated by the quote... I'm just saying... it seems likely the quote can't be directly attribute it to Hitler. Besides which, I think invoking dictators and atrocities in these sorts of discussion can be offensive to those who actually suffered.


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## bkultra

A more direct quote...

Part Three: 6 February – 7 September 1942:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police."


I wouldn't use snopes as a "fact checker" especially when it comes to politics.

Dictators and atrocities are reason alone to bear arms. Ignoring the past can be more damaging than addressing it.


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## Luftmensch

bkultra said:


> I wouldn't use snopes as a "fact checker" especially when it comes to politics.



Fair enough... I suspected this would be the response. On the other hand... that's not helpful. Feel free to find a couple of independent, original sources: 



> To conquer a nation, you must first disarm its citizens.



... if you like? You also replied with the exact same quote Snopes contained. I maintain that the longer verifiable quote it is hardly a good bumper sticker 

More importantly...history requires context. Do Americans want arms so that they can conquer Russia and eastern Europe (Canada or Mexico perhaps)?? Because Hitler was not talking about disarming the Germans. He was talking about subjugating neighbours.


I came here to try and understand the belief system around the second amendment. It is very alien to non-Americans. I am not trying to convince an American either which way... I'll am trying to pay this thread that respect. It is for Americans and their legal system to sort out. That said it is reasonable for me to reply to statements made in relation to my country. 


I know you repeated the quote in a well meaning way. I am also certain you are against fascism... Even if I was convinced the quote is true... I dont think it is relevant and its context maybe offensive. There are better arguments to be made ...


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

As I've written many times now, there are things that cannot be understood or explained, especially when culture and your only source of information is the "news".


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## bkultra

If you want to understand the second amendment then understand this.

The Bill of Rights is not granting these rights upon the American masses. These are natural "God given" rights to all. The point of the 2nd wasn't to grant power, but to limit the governments ability to infringe upon these natural rights.


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## 9mmbhp

bkultra said:


> A more direct quote...
> 
> Part Three: 6 February – 7 September 1942:
> 
> "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police."



The full quote is:

_“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjugated races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjugated races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. *So let’s not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country.*"_

It is clear from the bolded text that the context is about disarming citizens in Nazi occupied territory but Germany had already established domestic gun control in 1938, starting with registration in 1931:

“_In 1931, Weimar (Republic government) authorities discovered plans for a Nazi takeover… In reaction to such threats, the (Weimer) government authorized the registration of all firearms … for ‘public safety.’ The interior minister warned that the records must not fall into the hands of any extremist group.... in 1933, the ultimate extremist group, led by Adolf Hitler, seized power and used the (gun registration) records (of the former Weimer government) to identify, disarm, and attack political opponents and Jews. …”_ (“How the Nazis Used Gun Control,” by Stephen P. Halbrook, National Review, Dec. 2, 2013.)

Adolf Hitler, 1935 (1938?): "_This year will go down in history. For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!_"

Note that the law didn't apply equally to all citizens but targeted specific demographics (see: Nazi Gun Laws) and favored others.



bkultra said:


> Dictators and atrocities are reason alone to bear arms. Ignoring the past can be more damaging than addressing it.



Heinrich Himmler: “_Ordinary citizens don’t need guns, as having guns doesn’t serve the State._


Vladimir Ilyich Lenin: “_One man with a gun can control 100 without one._”
Josef Stalin: “_If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves."_
The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents were rounded up and exterminated.


Mao Tze Tung: “_War can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun._”

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were rounded up and exterminated. 
China currently has around 1 million Turkish Uyghurs in "re-education camps" and denies any accusations of genocide.​
Idi Amin: “_I do not want to be controlled by any superpower. I myself consider myself the most powerful figure in the world, and that is why I do not let any superpower control me._”
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians were rounded up and exterminated.​
Pol Pot, who created in Cambodia one of the 20th century’s most brutal and radical regimes, was responsible for killing one million of his own ‘educated,’ yet unarmed citizens.


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## 9mmbhp

Luftmensch said:


> I came here to try and understand the belief system around the second amendment. It is very alien to non-Americans. I am not trying to convince an American either which way... I'll am trying to pay this thread that respect. It is for Americans and their legal system to sort out.



Here's a bumper-sticker soundbite that might help

Euripides: "_I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees._*"*

The United States was founded on the principles of personal responsibility, self-reliance and a distaste for distant, capricious governance.

The Second Amendment also provides for self-defense.

The rights we have and the freedoms we enjoy have a cost.

Presumption of innocence says everyone has those rights and freedoms until found guilty of breaking a law (Fourteenth Amendment).
Laws are enforced post-facto, their consequences are intended as preventative deterrents.
Society is based on the assumption everyone will comply with the established laws.
Reality is that a small percentage do not.
Reliably identifying them a priori is impossible.

Infringing the rights of the many due to the actions of a few (i.e., taking away guns) is not the answer.

Facts of life: the world is a dangerous place, psychopaths/sociopaths/stupid/irrational people exist.

When unprovoked violence is directed at me I need to be prepared to respond.
The Supreme Court has ruled that the police are not obligated to risk their lives to protect mine.
(DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services and _Castle Rock v. Gonzales_)


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## Luftmensch

I am just trying to communicate:



Luftmensch said:


> I think invoking dictators and atrocities in these sorts of discussion can be offensive to those who actually suffered.





Luftmensch said:


> There are better arguments to be made ...



If inclusive conversations matter, it might be worth considering?. But fair enough... if this is another cultural misalignment... then so be it. Thanks for the patience


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## 9mmbhp

Deleted.


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## Luftmensch

Do you have an opinion on people protesting at funerals?


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Luftmensch said:


> Do you have an opinion on people protesting at funerals?


What about people protesting outside a bar in Australia for saying, "G'day mate"? 

Since we are making up things to get upset about now.


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## Luftmensch

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> What about people protesting outside a bar in Australia for saying, "G'day mate"?



I am sure it would be met with good humour.

I am just saying, good arguments can be made without coopting events that are painful for those who were directly impacted? You may have good reasons why 'war is bad'... you may have free speech on your side... but protesting at a soldier's funeral is in poor taste. This isn't so controversial? It is common and decent.


Anyway fellas... this has been distraction enough from the original intent of the thread - people with a common interest sharing their passion. Thank you for being patient. I'll let you get back to it!


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Luftmensch said:


> I am sure it would be met with good humour.
> 
> I am just saying, good arguments can be made without coopting events that are painful for those who were directly impacted? You may have good reasons why 'war is bad'... you may have free speech on your side... but protesting at a soldier's funeral is in poor taste. This isn't so controversial? It is common and decent.
> 
> 
> Anyway fellas... this has been distraction enough from the original intent of the thread - people with a common interest sharing their passion. Thank you for being patient. I'll let you get back to it!


So, you say it would be met with good humor, yet you speak for every single Australian? Even those with mental health issues?

This is the point I keep trying to pound home, yet I am ignored.

The vast majority will "do the right thing", yet there will always be a small part of the population that does not/cannot. Should laws be instituted for the shortcoming of the very few, or the majority? For the subject of guns in America, there are manners of difficulty in LEGALLY getting a firearm. Guess what? NOTHING is perfect. And the fact that guns are already invented, they will not go away...ever. with 3D printing, a new era of guns are emerging. Adapt, or get out of the way.

Edit: I just wanted to add that questions are good, and welcome. It's only when answers have been given, ignored, and repeated questions of the same sort or made, that people become frustrated and cease communication. I like to think of myself as intelligent, yet there are things that no matter how explained to me, I will not understand. Guns are that, for you.


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## Qapla'

Luftmensch said:


> Do you have an opinion on people protesting at funerals?





Luftmensch said:


> I am just saying, good arguments can be made without coopting events that are painful for those who were directly impacted? You may have good reasons why 'war is bad'... you may have free speech on your side... but protesting at a soldier's funeral is in poor taste. This isn't so controversial? It is common and decent.



A society that seeks to remain free does not recognize a "mourner's veto" on fundamental liberty.

Someone pointing and laughing at another's funeral, or cursing them for whatever cause they stood for in life, or whatever else may or may not be at most somewhat of an åsshøle (or to phrase it more politely as you did, as tasteless and not very decent), but not a priori a criminal. Please refer to the First Amendment.




AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> What about people protesting outside a bar in Australia for saying, "G'day mate"?
> 
> Since we are making up things to get upset about now.



I don't know about "G'day mate" in Australia, but "Kia ora mate" in New Zealand will get you laughed at, as Coca-Cola found out the hard way (kia ora = g'day; mate = death/decay/disaster; so to NZ'ers it came across like saying "Drink Coca-Cola! Greetings death!").


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

My ignorance is exposed. I couldn't think of a relevant insult in the Australian culture, so I referred to crocodile dundee.


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## Qapla'

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> My ignorance is exposed. I couldn't think of a relevant insult in the Australian culture, so I referred to crocodile dundee.


Wasn't calling anyone ignorant; just pointing out a bit of trivia.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Qapla' said:


> Wasn't calling anyone ignorant; just pointing out a bit of trivia.


No doubt, calling myself out.


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## Luftmensch

Qapla' said:


> A society that seeks to remain free does not recognize a "mourner's veto" on fundamental liberty.
> 
> Someone pointing and laughing at another's funeral, or cursing them for whatever cause they stood for in life, or whatever else may or may not be at most somewhat of an åsshøle (or to phrase it more politely as you did, as tasteless and not very decent), but not a priori a criminal. Please refer to the First Amendment.



That is my exact point. There is a profound difference between legal and decent. There is also a profound difference between 'correct' and decent. Being legal doesn't make you decent. Being 'correct' doesn't make you decent... and when it comes to moral/social issues, being 'correct' can be ambiguous anyway.

People who are more concerned about being 'right' than an åsshøle probably aren't going to be very good or interesting company.

I respect @bkultra for saying his piece and letting sleeping dogs lie. 




Qapla' said:


> I don't know about "G'day mate" in Australia, but "Kia ora mate" in New Zealand will get you laughed at, as Coca-Cola found out the hard way (kia ora = g'day; mate = death/decay/disaster; so to NZ'ers it came across like saying "Drink Coca-Cola! Greetings death!").





Thanks for the humour!! Good trivia... I didn't know about it! There are a few enertaining corporate f!ck ups. The Mitsubishi Pajero immediately jumped to mind. Of course... it had to be sold in Spain and South America as the Montero... (Pajero meaning wanker)


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## PFS

Just a few…..


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## PFS

A few more…..


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## PFS

And some more….


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## PFS

I might have a problem….. LOL


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## PFS

Hope you all are enjoying…..


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## PFS

That’s all for today…. Enjoy your weekend and your freedom!


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## inferno

*god fhucking damn you have many guns*


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## inferno

now, that silver sig there, thats a really nice gun. SA? long sight radius, big mag. it looks awesome.

maybe you can post some closeups of that one?

btw how heavy is it? 1500g? 1200?


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## inferno

btw which is your absolute favorite gun out of those you posted? if you can only choose one.

and why?


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## Barmoley

inferno said:


> now, that silver sig there, thats a really nice gun. SA? long sight radius, big mag. it looks awesome.
> 
> maybe you can post some closeups of that one?
> 
> btw how heavy is it? 1500g? 1200?


Looks like a p226 x5. Beautiful gun, about 1350g. It rivals sig p210 in accuracy.Big and heavy but great


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## PFS

Barmoley said:


> Looks like a p226 x5. Beautiful gun, about 1350g. It rivals sig p210 in accuracy.Big and heavy but great


You are exactly correct, it is a tac driver. Fun to shoot but heavy…


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## PFS

inferno said:


> btw which is your absolute favorite gun out of those you posted? if you can only choose one.
> 
> and why?


I would have to say my MP5’s due to the fact that it is a suppressed sub machine gun that I can actually carry with me in my 511 back pack that within seconds can be accessed. Plus I am a MP5 nerd… LOL But to be frank they all serve a purpose.


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## Greasylake

Not a handgun but I don't think we have a rifle thread


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## MSicardCutlery

M44?


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## Greasylake

MSicardCutlery said:


> M44?


Yessir!


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## MSicardCutlery

Nice! I'm the proud owner of a VKT modified M91


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## Noodle Soup

VC rifle


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## Barmoley

Mosin Nagants are a lot of fun and interesting to collect due to all the variations. Finnish ones built on Russian receivers and various snipers are even more interesting.


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## Greasylake

MSicardCutlery said:


> Nice! I'm the proud owner of a VKT modified M91


Nice! The Finnish Mosins are super cool and if I had a bit more cash when I bought mine I probably would have looked for a Finnish gun instead.



Noodle Soup said:


> VC rifle


This gun isn't counterbored and the rifling is strong, so I don't think this gun ever saw much use.


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## MSicardCutlery

Greasylake said:


> Nice! The Finnish Mosins are super cool and if I had a bit more cash when I bought mine I probably would have looked for a Finnish gun instead.



I lucked out with mine, $440 CAD in 2015. I just happened to be headed on a trip and passing through the town, about 8 hours from where I live, where the gun happened to be.


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## panda

jeez when did this thread turn into politik talk, eww. I just wanna see guns.

anyways, I ended up having to sell my sti and now saving for a dan wesson guardian to replace it. would also like to get a new colt python, and a Wilson combat 92, and cz shadow 2 sa


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## MSicardCutlery

"Which gun would you like to own most of all?" 

".........yes"


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## bkultra

Update: Optic came in, finally complete... For now.


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## daveb

BK wins the internet!


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## Keith Sinclair

The Finns had no armor when Russia attacked with tanks. Many we're good shots because of hunting. They also had a good Finnish made rifle. 

You can buy a M1 Garrand in US. It was a good rifle adaptable to different functions. Patton said it had much to do with winning WW2. 

Reason the AR-15 is so popular is it is a assault rifle that is light, packs a punch, adjustable stock for different size people. 
User friendly adaptable to different functions. It is a military weapon like the AK-47. For this reason it has been demonized by the media. Of coarse also because used in mass shootings of children. 

Some one in this thread pointed out the many despot leaders in 20th century used strict gun control of their citizens. Stalin & Hitler prime examples. Let our police force do the job. With the certainty of fresh water shortage in the future. Not too optimistic 
There will be more refugees fleeing from bad situations.


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## Noodle Soup

Keith Sinclair said:


> The Finns had no armor when Russia attacked with tanks. Many we're good shots because of hunting. They also had a good Finnish made rifle.
> 
> You can buy a M1 Garrand in US. It was a good rifle adaptable to different functions. Patton said it had much to do with winning WW2.
> 
> Reason the AR-15 is so popular is it is a assault rifle that is light, packs a punch, adjustable stock for different size people.
> User friendly adaptable to different functions. It is a military weapon like the AK-47. For this reason it has been demonized by the media. Of coarse also because used in mass shootings of children.
> 
> Some one in this thread pointed out the many despot leaders in 20th century used strict gun control of their citizens. Stalin & Hitler prime examples. Let our police force do the job. With the certainty of fresh water shortage in the future. Not too optimistic
> There will be more refugees fleeing from bad situations.


I think a lot of what makes the AR-15 type rifles popular is the fact that literally millions of us have trained on the M-16 family of rifles in the military. An equally large number of us have used them in actually combat. While US laws won't allow us to own a real M-16/M4 assault rifle we can own a semi-auto that looks like one. I've used an AR to hunt wild hogs in Texas (there is a large boar skull hanging over my desk right now). AR's aren't very attractive by traditional rifle standards but at the end of the day they are still just sporting rifles.


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## Keith Sinclair

Someone should start a rifle thread. I learned to shoot with a 22 caliber just regular sights on rifle. Plucking squirrels out of pecan trees. At around 12 years old.


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## Greasylake

Cartridges are just a fad anyway


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## MSicardCutlery

Nice! I have the same rifle. I just wish I had bought a percussion gun instead. I can shoot a .458 win mag without flinching, but that flash gets me every single time.


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## Greasylake

Yeah I can definitely appreciate the advantages of a percussion now... the flintlock is fun but I did get peppered by a piece of flint or two. My next muzzleloader will probably be a percussion, but I'm going to look at getting an original rifle instead of a reproduction this time. That's all on hold though until I figure out how to get ammo for this new carcano lol


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## MSicardCutlery

Greasylake said:


> That's all on hold though until I figure out how to get ammo for this new carcano lol


Cast, use a hard alloy, and powdercoat. It works great, even at 1800fps out of my friend's 45/70.


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## Greasylake

MSicardCutlery said:


> Cast, use a hard alloy, and powdercoat. It works great, even at 1800fps out of my friend's 45/70.


Well, PPU makes bullets, and PPU makes cases, I am just missing the tooling to assemble those haha. PPU also sells carcano ammo, but the bullets they use are a couple thousandths too small, so they don't engage the rifling. Some people say they changed that but some say they didn't. I think there may be one or two other brands that make it but they run it far less often. I really just need to get the reloading gear together which is $$$$


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## coxhaus

I just bought a Glock model 40 10mm to see if I want to carry it in Alaska for bear defense if I go fishing this summer. My S&W model 629 had a broke hammer as I cocked it a few weeks ago and the end of the hammer broke off. I had to send it back to S&W for repair. They said it had been 14 years ago when I last sent it back for a broken trigger. I was worried it would come back with a rough new trigger that would need work but it did not they did a good job and so I can use it. There seems to be some debate on whether a 10mm will work as a bear defense gun.


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