# Takeda ....What to look for (now) to keep from getting screwed



## Dave Martell

Takeda used to make really thin knives that cut great. Now they're leaving the area above the edge really extra thick making for wedgie-monsters. They need to go back to grinding them as they used to but in the meantime new buyers are coming along and getting screwed by these new bad grinds.

Below shows a brand new never used or sharpened 240mm Takeda gyuto.

You can see where Takeda removed steel and I marked in where they need to grind up to, where they used to grind up to, you can see the difference. 

I tried to get a choil shot but had no luck in clarity. 

I screwed up and forgot to measure the thickness but my guess is that the area above the cutting edge is nearly as thick as (or maybe even thicker than) the spine.

Anyway, should you be thinking about buying a Takeda I would advise that you request of the retailer to take a picture of the *actual knife* you're considering buying (not a stock photo) and verify which grind it has before you get stuck with a lemon.


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## EdipisReks

Wow, I bet that knife cuts horribly.


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## NO ChoP!

I messaged Shosui Takeda about this, and unfortunately, he didn't seem too concerned.


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## ecchef

EdipisReks said:


> Wow, I bet that knife cuts horribly.



Like an old Rosseli. The difference between the old and new production grinds is astronomical.


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## panda

In other words dont buy one if you are not proficient in reshaping knives..


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## XooMG

I wonder if anyone's got a pic of an older grind nakiri that I can compare to. Every pic I've seen has been similar to mine, though some are much thicker and my knife is very thin. I just cut up an ogre carrot, maybe 5-6cm thick, and while mine wedged a bit when making thick cuts (My Itinomon gyuto and Harner petty did noticeably better), the Takeda was magical at the thinner slices (<1mm to 3mm) with no sticking.

I'm a little conflicted about it, but it seems almost like a double-ground ultralight usuba.


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## Lefty

If you're cutting only items less than a centimeter tall, the new grind should suffice....


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## JBroida

ironically, i just ended up having to fix one of these today... it was a new stainless clad one.


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## Eric

Dave: when you refer to the "old grind" how long ago are you referring to? I have an unused 240 purchased in 2011, and out of curiousity just looked at it. The grind is slightly higher than the one in your photo, but nowhere near as high as your line?


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## Dave Martell

Eric said:


> Dave: when you refer to the "old grind" how long ago are you referring to? I have an unused 240 purchased in 2011, and out of curiousity just looked at it. The grind is slightly higher than the one in your photo, but nowhere near as high as your line?




I'd guess that I started noticing this problem in 2012 but again that's just a guess.


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## XooMG

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7096/IMG_4783Large.jpg

Not my pic, but it's from a KF thread dated 2007. Looks like he's been doing this a while.


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## Dave Martell

Here's a couple of old school Takedas...notice how tall the bevels are cut on these knives.


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## Dave Martell

One of the first, maybe even THE first Takeda gyutos seen in the USA....Louisinacook Lee's 240mm gyuto...


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## JHunter

Do you think he's pushed it down for the aesthetics more Ku finish on the blade?


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## Don Nguyen

I tried the one in the passaround a few months ago. It had a short grind line, but it was forged really thin with a slight hollow above the grind. Just a bit of thinning and it would be one hellofaknife I think.


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## chefcomesback

JHunter said:


> Do you think he's pushed it down for the aesthetics more Ku finish on the blade?



My uneducated guess would be that it takes more time and experience with the old grind


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## Dave Martell

JHunter said:


> Do you think he's pushed it down for the aesthetics more Ku finish on the blade?



I couldn't say. 

The issue here, however, is not that of the height of the bevel being incorrect - this is just a symptom - the issue is that the knife is too thick above the bevel which requires more steel to be removed to correct. If the knife was hammered thinner to begin with then the tall bevel grind wouldn't be necessary.

So if he wants a small looking bevel he would need to make a thin knife.


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## JHunter

So cost and time savings to keep up with increased demand?


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## Dave Martell

My guess is that the guy forging isn't pushing himself the way Shosui does when he forges. The knives are well forged but 1/2"-1" above the edge remains VERY thick which tells me that someone doesn't want to take chances. Then again, maybe the guy grinding in the bevel is holding back on really laying the knife down on the wheel, doesn't want to mess up the pretty KU finish or blow the edge out.


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## Dave Martell

Oh wait.....this explains it...they got a new guy on the hammer.....looks like he got his hair singed off in the forge...well except for that little horned tuft up on top. 

[video=youtube;UMnepgKmQNM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMnepgKmQNM[/video]


PS - sorry for the detraction, I found this when searching for Takeda pics and just couldn't help myself.


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## labor of love

i imagine a huge secondary market is about to be created on BST, takedas forged and ground prior to 2011 could become a hot commodity.


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## ecchef

You're evil, Dave. :spitcoffee:


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## JHunter

Dave Martell said:


> Here's a couple of old school Takedas...notice how tall the bevels are cut on these knives.


beauty nakiri and love the red spacers on that petty(?) handle


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## TheDispossessed

i bet it's just that takeda-san used to oversee much more of the process and due to demand is now delegating a lot of responsibility to young trainees and not following up properly with some good old QC.


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## erikz

I have a Nakiri custom made from Shosui witch he has forged himself. Its really thin and I havent had any wedging problems when using it, it has the low grind. 

Standard knives will probably not be forged by Shosui as he is on the road about 50% of the time visiting shows both domestic and international.


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## bkultra

Don Nguyen said:


> I tried the one in the passaround a few months ago. It had a short grind line, but it was forged really thin with a slight hollow above the grind. Just a bit of thinning and it would be one hellofaknife I think.



I too partook in this passaround and agree with your observation.


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## WillC

Such a shame, the one I borrowed belonging to T.B. London was forged very thin towards the edge and the hollow forging was very pronounced , made for a fine cutter, the bevels on T.B.s did not come up as far as you indicate though, I would say 10-12mm? And were close to flat, at a very shallow angle, probably around 7 degrees per side. The edge held up nicely with a little micro bevel. Was in no way a wedge monster. It really fell through stuff i a way that some might want for a bit more feedback and resistance on some tasks even....Has anyone spoken directly to Mr Takeda about this issue?


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## Timthebeaver

WillC said:


> Such a shame, the one I borrowed belonging to T.B. London was forged very thin towards the edge and the hollow forging was very pronounced , made for a fine cutter, the bevels on T.B.s did not come up as far as you indicate though, I would say 10-12mm? And were close to flat, at a very shallow angle, probably around 7 degrees per side. The edge held up nicely with a little micro bevel. Was in no way a wedge monster. It really fell through stuff i a way that some might want for a bit more feedback and resistance on some tasks even....Has anyone spoken directly to Mr Takeda about this issue?



I purchased that Takeda in 2009. I agree totally, as a further point, this knife didn't have the thick "shoulders" above the bevel which seems to be the problem now.


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## XooMG

Posting my choil shot for reference...not a gyuto, but a nakiri.





Here it is next to my Asai, which is much thicker at the spine, a bit thinner at the edge, and has just as many wedging problems as the Takeda, and much worse sticking:


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## tripleq




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## panda

Look @ that concavity! Awesomeness for food release.


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## Keith Sinclair

Dave Martell said:


> I couldn't say.
> 
> The issue here, however, is not that of the height of the bevel being incorrect - this is just a symptom - the issue is that the knife is too thick above the bevel which requires more steel to be removed to correct. If the knife was hammered thinner to begin with then the tall bevel grind wouldn't be necessary.
> 
> So if he wants a small looking bevel he would need to make a thin knife.



Since I have only seen Stepan's & my Takeda's no expert.Both are thin behind the edge.I got Quantum's first Takeda 270mm the bevel below the slag on my blade is 6mm not as high as some of your pictures of old Takeda's,but the blade is hammered thin,cuts well with little stiction.


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## mkriggen

Check out Jim's gallery post, he has some good photos of several old style Takeda's

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4241-Jims-steel

Be well,
Mikey


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## Erilyn75

Dave Martell said:


> Here's a couple of old school Takedas...notice how tall the bevels are cut on these knives.



That's what mine looks like now that he fixed it


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## stereo.pete

I do believe that is a dramatic difference @Erilyn.


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## Ucmd

Wow, I can't believe the difference. I have an old 270 and it is quite thin. I was going to buy another 210 but it after seeing this. Are the cleavers having the same issues?


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## Erilyn75

Huge difference in the way it cuts too. I posted new and better pics in my Takeda thread.


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## Dave Martell

Erilyn75 said:


> Huge difference in the way it cuts too. I posted new and better pics in my Takeda thread.




*LINK*


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## Dave Martell

I've been thinking a lot about this situation with Takeda that's been developing and I wanted to say that I feel that even though I don't know Takeda personally I believe that he'll figure out the problem and do the right thing in the end. I say this because he's made a great reputation for himself over the years and surely won't appreciate the negative feedback his knives are now receiving. in recent times Takeda's been in communication with the western world more than ever before (Facebook, shows, new dealers, etc) so he's bound to here about this stuff, let's give him a chance to fix this before we crucify him. 

I still say, should you be shopping for one of his knives, that it's currently worth your time to ask your retailer for pictures of the knife that you'll be buying prior to securing it. This will drive your retailer crazy but it will ensure that you get what you want and also show you the level of commitment that the retailer has to their products, their craftsman, and their customers.


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## toddnmd

Dave, I hope you're right, and that he does realize the issues, and take steps to improve them.

I'd guess that asking a retailer for individual pics is also another way to get feedback to Takeda. I think they'd be telling him, "We keep getting requests for pictures, and that takes a lot of extra time." It would also give a better idea about the relative incidence of various problems.


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## panda

i recently got a new one too and while the bevels weren't wide (needed thinning), the forging was still how it's supposed to be (caved in). i would have been pretty upset had it been just flat all the way down like a moritaka which defeats the purpose of paying more for a takeda.


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## vlad8

I think people have to stop buying his knives and he will get the message. The problem is all the great reviews out there that mislead people.


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## erikz

vlad8 said:


> I think people have to stop buying his knives and he will get the message. The problem is all the great reviews out there that mislead people.


Honestly I ordered a custom Nakiri from Takeda and its almost laser thin and caved in above the edge. The distal taper is also as I'd expect it to be.

Some comments in this thread are a bit harsh if you ask me. Contact the guy and talk to him, hes a pretty open guy.


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## XooMG

erikz said:


> Honestly I ordered a custom Nakiri from Takeda and its almost laser thin and caved in above the edge. The distal taper is also as I'd expect it to be.
> 
> Some comments in this thread are a bit harsh if you ask me. Contact the guy and talk to him, hes a pretty open guy.


Any chance I could get a choil shot from yours? I posted mine earlier in the thread but haven't really seen many others. Would really love to compare.


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## erikz

Ill try to make a few shots this weekend, in between work and 2 whisky tastings.


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## Dave Martell

Dave Martell said:


> ...should you be thinking about buying a Takeda I would advise that you request of the retailer to take a picture of the *actual knife *you're considering buying (not a stock photo) and verify which grind it has before you get stuck with a lemon.
> 
> ....
> I still say, should you be shopping for one of his knives, that it's currently worth your time to ask your retailer for pictures of the knife that you'll be buying prior to securing it. This will drive your retailer crazy but it will ensure that you get what you want and also show you the level of commitment that the retailer has to their products, their craftsman, and their customers.




There's now a "Personal Shopper" (originally labeled as "concierge") service available at CKTG where they'll take pictures of these knives for you before you buy them. 

Cost = $19.95


From http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/kncose.html


> _This service will give you the ability to select your knife from at least 3 that we have in stock (if there are that many available). We will give you 3 or more to choose from with photos of both sides of the knife as well as a spine shot and will also provide you with accurate specs for each knife so you can make a more informed choice. We will also inspect each knife and point out any minor flaws as well as recommend the knife we think is best of the bunch.
> Many of our knives are hand made by small blacksmith shops and some customers have specific requirements and preferences so we hope this service will help you get the knife you want in a similar way as possible to the experience you would have if you were standing in our shop selecting a knife in person._


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## Timthebeaver

Bargain.


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## labor of love

sorry but paying 20 bucks seems like BS to me. knife wear was more than happy to take pics of the takeda profiles they had in stock and email them to me a while back when i was shopping around for the "right" takeda for me. they would probably take choil shot pics too if you ask. if a supplier has time to answer your questions over the phone for a few minutes then i dont see why they wouldnt snap off a couple of pics of some inventory, especially considering how inconsistent takeda is with their profiles and grinds. the personal shopper fee has a photo of a takeda next to it, i guess he gets these requests alot for takeda.


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## hutchla

And for only $5.99 more they'll add "copious bubble wrap" and "expert packing" to ensure your knife arrives "mostly damage free."


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## James

I wonder if I can use this service for the empty stone box


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## berko

try it


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## erikz

Maybe they put the wrapping in the box.


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## brainsausage

Dave Martell said:


> There's now a "Personal Shopper" (originally labeled as "concierge") service available at CKTG where they'll take pictures of these knives for you before you buy them.
> 
> Cost = $19.95
> 
> 
> From http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/kncose.html



I gotta find a way to charge people to do my job for me...


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## Erilyn75

Any way to make a buck I guess. It's a service that, given the nature of the business, should be free! Obviously taking pride in ones customer service doesn't rank that high over there.


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## mark76

Hey guys, this is my Takeda 270 mm yanagiba (actually a sujihiki, since it's sharpened two-sided, but they call it a yanagiba). I got it about 9 months ago and it has never been sharpened.





These are two choil shots. I hope they are clear enough.









What do you think of the profile? And is it too thick behind the edge?


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## Timthebeaver

Do you like how it cuts? If the answer is yes, then it's fine. Also, choil shots can sometimes be misleading.

Looks like it thickens too rapidly for my taste, but ymmv.

Narrow Takedas don't seem to have the typical hollow forging of their taller counterparts.


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## EdipisReks

Thickness is much less of an issue with a protein slicer.


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## berko

EdipisReks said:


> Thickness is much less of an issue with a protein slicer.



+1

therefore i'd recommend a zakuri in that case.


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## labor of love

berko said:


> +1
> 
> therefore i'd recommend a zakuri in that case.



yep. i like that zakuri yanagiba/suji with ebony handle.


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## Dave Kinogie

Dave Martell said:


> There's now a "Personal Shopper" (originally labeled as "concierge") service available at CKTG where they'll take pictures of these knives for you before you buy them.
> 
> Cost = $19.95
> 
> 
> From http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/kncose.html


Man... A lot of times I feel like people are overly harsh on the guy and his site and there's some obvious personal bias and personal issue in the tone of posts about said site and owner, whether justified or not(likely more justified than not, but I'm honestly not judging either way, it's not my place nor do I personally know enough or am I looking to get involved), but this is pretty obnoxious IMHO, leaves a really bad taste in my mouth TBH. 

I get they're high volume, but you really need to charge for that? Or at least not refund it as long as the person purchases one of the knives or a knife of similar cost?


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## Dave Martell

Dave Martell said:


> There's now a "Personal Shopper" (originally labeled as "concierge") service available at CKTG where they'll take pictures of these knives for you before you buy them.
> 
> Cost = $19.95
> 
> 
> From http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/kncose.html




So if you happened to pay for the personal shopper option and still don't get what you want you can always send the knife to this guy who seems pretty proud of himself for taking more money from a CKTG customer instead of helping the customer to get a replacement (good knife) like he originally paid for. Hey it's an option though, eh? 





> *kenneths123 said:*
> 
> In this video I demonstrate thinning a Takeda Gyuto which the customer felt was too thick for his tastes. Another knife sharpener refused to do the procedure, feeling that he could not do it without messing up the finish. He felt the knife was too thick and should be returned to the maker or vendor who sold the knife to him. The customer asked if I could do something with his knife and this is the result..
> 
> .....The Takeda knife was purchased from Mark ******** of This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com




[video=youtube;zEc_4Y9ws98]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEc_4Y9ws98[/video]


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## apicius9

Wait, if I take pictures of handles before I ship them out, to make sure they are what the customer expects, I can take money for that?

Stefan


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## Dave Martell

apicius9 said:


> Wait, if I take pictures of handles before I ship them out, to make sure they are what the customer expects, I can take money for that?
> 
> Stefan




Yes, at least $19.95 per photo session.


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## Dave Martell

Here's the best option....one that's guaranteed to work....

Buy your Takeda knives from a vendor who knows knives.

Buy from one of KKF's vendors - *ToshoKnifeArts*


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## Ruso

I was quite put off on Takedas lately because of all this "new" grind thing. Since I've seen pics on Tosho's subforum here I got the the AS <3 again. I might finally give Takeda a shot in near future if money permits.


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## erikz

Dave Martell said:


> Here's the best option....one that's guaranteed to work....
> 
> Buy your Takeda knives from a vendor who knows knives.
> 
> Buy from one of KKF's vendors - *ToshoKnifeArts*


Buying one directly from Shosui is also an option. Especially when you have specific requests for grind etc.


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## labor of love

erikz said:


> Buying one directly from Shosui is also an option. Especially when you have specific requests for grind etc.


Yeah...but i know someone who didnt get what he asked for either when ordering direct. Some requests could perhaps be lost in translation. Either way, make 100% sure he knows exactly what you want when ordering direct.


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## Timthebeaver

Is it fair to say that Takedas were better when people weren't telling him how to make his knives?. Or is simply that QC can no longer meet demand?


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## labor of love

Timthebeaver said:


> Is it fair to say that Takedas were better when people weren't telling him how to make his knives?. Or is simply that QC can no longer meet demand?



Well, there was confusion when someone requested a flatter profile gyuto. Which shouldnt really be a big deal because takeda profiles are all over the place already. Just requesting a flatter one didnt seem to work out quite right.


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## Timthebeaver

labor of love said:


> Well, there was confusion when someone requested a flatter profile gyuto. Which shouldnt really be a big deal because takeda profiles are all over the place already. Just requesting a flatter one didnt seem to work out quite right.



Way back when, the Takeda was rather unique and had the flattest profile of any gyuto. But people moaned about it and started requesting knives with more belly, and now they seem to be "all over the place" as you put it.

My point was, has listening to a customer base that varies from pros who use knives 10 hours a day, to internet experts who have never made a knife in their life, to those easily led by hype looking for their first knife adversely affected the product over time?

Other makers (e.g. Watanabe) are less accommodating to customer requests. Playing Devil's Advocate, perhaps this is a good thing - if you want a Watanabe, buy a Watanabe - but as the maker intended it to be. It's what he knows/does best - through experience.


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## XooMG

Some makers prefer to maintain control. When I had my DT ITK sent to Devin for thinning (still pending), he mentioned he didn't want to do any profile changes because he wants to ensure the ITK line is consistent (I'm sure his custom options give more freedom, though). I've heard Murray Carter now prefers just squirting out whatever he wants based on his templates and letting people buy them as stock without being imperious about the design.

On the other end, Butch Harner is working with me on a knife, and his attitude seems more accommodating. I'm not going to presume to know more about making a good kitchen knife than he, but he'd be willing to give me some control over the design if I were to ask for it.

I'm not sure how Takeda fits into this spectrum. It's possible he's accommodated some and ended up alienating others, but who is demanding a beefy woodsplitting wedger in the first place? Did he get an order from a confused logger? I mean my nakiri seems well thought out, but that's because it's so thin that the grind gives it an excellent degree of food release while making only a slight tradeoff in going through the middle of a 6cm carrot. A gyuto with a similar cross section but 2-3x thicker seems...odd. It could be a workflow thing, but that just implies that Mr. Takeda is half-arsing it.


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## Burl Source

Dave Martell said:


> Oh wait.....this explains it...they got a new guy on the hammer.....looks like he got his hair singed off in the forge...well except for that little horned tuft up on top.
> PS - sorry for the detraction, I found this when searching for Takeda pics and just couldn't help myself.



He probably spent a lot on electrolysis to get that hairstyle. Now if he could get Mike D to do a good cranial tattoo he would be really cool.


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## Brad Gibson

I talked to shosui about his grinds a few days ago on Facebook and even linked him this thread. He didn't seem very concerned and he said it was a matter of opinion.


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## panda

I happen to really enjoy the new 'grind' as its very asymmetric and lends to very good food release which I greatly value over 'fall through ability

Point being takedas are great cutters regardless old or new.


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## labor of love

Timthebeaver said:


> Other makers (e.g. Watanabe) are less accommodating to customer requests. Playing Devil's Advocate, perhaps this is a good thing - if you want a Watanabe, buy a Watanabe - but as the maker intended it to be. It's what he knows/does best - through experience.



Im really not concerned with whatever motivations takeda has in changing up their profile over the years. takeda, heiji and several other makers ive spoken with seem very open and unbothered about doing custom profile work. Afterall, the maker isnt going to use the knife on a daily basis, the customer is. If they dont have a problem doing the work, well then it really isnt a problem, is it?
Look at this knife http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13818-Own-Design-Takeda-240-Gyuto?highlight=Takeda surely if shosui makes stuff like this he doesnt have a problem with a customer requesting a flatter profile from his inventory.
BTW i own a newer grind takeda and i love it. The funky grinds might be hard for some to understand but in practice they cut beautifully.


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## Dave Martell

A certain little birdie sent me a message today that linked to some talk on two other forums that stated that Takeda is being targeted here by a "smear campaign". I took a look at the linked posts and found inputs from previous KKF members that banned themselves....go figure.

It's my intent to speak the truth about what I see and if it's seen by people as smearing then that's OK. For the record though, I've always been a Takeda fan and likely I've been a reason why he's seen success in growth over the years as I've done nothing but support the man and his business. Takeda's recent fall to making wedgemonsters is something of their own creation and something that they own as much as they own what good things they've done in the past. Again, I'm only speaking the truth here and will continue to do so even if they turn themselves around.


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## brianh

I emailed Takeda a week ago about ordering a knife with the old grind. No response yet


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## SpiceOfLife

I don't understand why people consider this a 'smear campaign' when individuals are simply giving their honest opinion about a product. There is a lot of love for Takeda not only in this thread but on this forum. Plus, it's not as if people are doing this to their knives... They are getting them how they are getting them. People here are simply voicing their concerns about the change that they've noticed in the grind of the knives lately, as a warning to future buyers that the glowing reviews and photos of the grind of knives of the past might not be what you get now. 

People come on these forums for help, and if individuals can't give their honest opinions about a product then what's the point? :angel2:

There's also a reason that a certain site is now offering the whole personal shopper option. Just saying'

In Takeda's defence, if you're unhappy with the knife he does seem to try and make things right. We've seen this in previous threads. Hopefully this trend continues for individuals unhappy with their grind.

- Steve


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## James

Dubbing this a smear campaign is naive; why would we when we have a respected forum vendor who offers takedas?


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## SpiceOfLife

Good point. The Takeda knives that Tosho posted pictures of still look awesome.

- Steve


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## Dave Martell

Yeah that's the thing, Takeda may be making some good knives so buy from a trusted retailer and you'll be fine.


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## erikz

brianh said:


> I emailed Takeda a week ago about ordering a knife with the old grind. No response yet


Try to contact him or Yousui through Facebook Brian!


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## nepastovus

I send my knife for him to sharpen and thin down - it was wedging, cutting with it was not pleasant. I tried to explain to him what was the problem and what I wanted, he didn't quite understood the wedging and that thick part above the edge before it goes to hollow grind was causing the problem. he did say he is going to make it thinner as to make a customer happy. Over all I am very happy with Takedas communication and solving this, makes me want to own more of his knives now  The knife spent just 3 days in Japan and I should get it at the end of next week hopefully  cant wait to try it out 
Best wishes for Takeda!


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## brianh

erikz said:


> Try to contact him or Yousui through Facebook Brian!



Still nuthin  Considering a Watanabe.


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## erikz

brianh said:


> Still nuthin  Considering a Watanabe.


Very unlike Takeda. He answered my first email within a day, and is very reactive towards me on facebook. So is Yousui.


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## brianh

Is this his email? [email protected] I also sent him message on FB couple days ago.


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## erikz

Thats is. Try to send him and Yousui a friend request. Once they accept you can start a privvy convo with them.


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## brianh

I sent him a message but maybe he can't respond with my settings. I sent friend request as a last effort! Thanks, Erikz.


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## erikz

No problem


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## Erilyn75

brianh said:


> Still nuthin  Considering a Watanabe.



That's very odd. He's on at least once a day. Your message may have went to the "others" folder and he wouldn't see it. Try friending him and resend the message.


ETA: I had major wedging issues with mine and he fixed it. If you're in the US make sure you ship it priority and insure it. It's a hefty expense but the alternative is 20-35 days and no assurance it got there.


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## mikemac

This is how I remember things....Back in the day there were 2 bladesmiths producing country or village style knives...useful, rustic, high on value, low on 'bling' (the word didn't even exist then). Carter & Watanabe. Both had one foot in rustic knives, and another in higher end offerings. Interestingly, Watanabes' offerings are almost unchanged - he seemed to do the best job of producing both rustic and high-er end knives. Carter has gravitated more and more towards the HG & IP offerings (funny how you almost NEVER see his Mutaki (sp?) knives for sale!)
These two were joined by a newcomer (to us) named Takeda. The 2 big reasons I remember a shift to include Takeda....the kurouchi finish was (and still is) UNIQUE, and you didn't have to pay for the upgrade to a rosewood handle. ( my first Carter was a SFGZ 6.5 funy with a rosewood handle upgrade...$147) "We" came to embrace Takeda because his knives were a great value, were very unique looking....and because of a $25 up-charge for a handle!

Of the three, IMHO, Takeda was then and still is the most 'rustic' of the three. 

There are two features of Takeda - knife and individual - that in my observation have been consistent thru the years....communications with 'us' have always been lower on the list of priorities. Sometimes he can get back to you really quickly, sometimes he's buried in the shop or out doing knife shows, and you can't track him down for weeks. And...there is huge variation in the production of his knives...one 240 gyuto never ever seems to look like any other 240 gyuto coming out of the same shop on the same day. 

Neither one of these features means his knives are great, or terrible, and lately it sounds like they can be both. These are just features of the man and his knife.


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## brianh

Erilyn75 said:


> That's very odd. He's on at least once a day. Your message may have went to the "others" folder and he wouldn't see it. Try friending him and resend the message.
> 
> 
> ETA: I had major wedging issues with mine and he fixed it. If you're in the US make sure you ship it priority and insure it. It's a hefty expense but the alternative is 20-35 days and no assurance it got there.



Thanks, I did just that. I'm asking if he can make me one with old grind.


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## brianh

I heard back from Takeda. There is a bit of a language barrier, but I think he basically said they make hand made knives to hopefully please most, though they misunderstand at first. I respect his opinions, but think I'll try a Watanabe.


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## panda

Watanabe is thick as hell.


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## brianh

At the spine, from what others say.


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## Dave Kinogie

Was thinking about going with a Watanabe but they're stainless clad, want to stay full carbon.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Dave Kinogie said:


> Was thinking about going with a Watanabe but they're stainless clad, want to stay full carbon.



Not so. Most of Watanabe's knives are full carbon, not stainless clad.


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## Dave Kinogie

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Not so. Most of Watanabe's knives are full carbon, not stainless clad.



I should have been more specific but I was talking about the nakiri that even you yourself said was stainless clad in the nakiri thread on page 7.


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## mark76

At the advice of Mark of CKTG I sent my yanagiba (pics before in this threat) to Takeda. He was very swift in responding to his email (within a day) and, although he didn't think it was necessary, agreed to thinning the knife.


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## Mr.Magnus

Both my takedas had poor grinds or to be honest SH*T grinds. i sent them both back and he regrind them both. i had to pay the shipping to him witch i think he should have taken since it was a bad job from the start and if he wants to keep a good reputation he should look into this cuz its been alot knives comming out with massive wedges lately and its not what you want when you pay the high price. i could get a knife with a 10 times better bevel for 40 bucks..
+ side is that he did fix the knives fast. - i paid shipping to him. knives came back with big scratches on the bevel from the grinding wheel and micro chipped bevels. 

Takeda time to concentrate on the product rather then the volym or you can move the shop to China.


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## hojuturtle

One of the reasons my takeda's in the drawer. Sharp as hell, but wedges.
I need to thin out the shoulder..soon.hopefully.


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## lucabrasi

Was this true with your custom profile Takeda, Mr. Magnus? Grind was bad after making a knife to your custom, blue printed specifications?


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## panda

Since getting a Takeda, all my other knives pretty much get neglected.


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## erikz

panda said:


> Since getting a Takeda, all my other knives pretty much get neglected.


I second this. 

Seems to be alot of different Takeda's around, I'm very happy with both my Honesuki and Nakiri.


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## Mr.Magnus

Yepp the custom was one of them. Thay are however very nice now after i have sent them back




lucabrasi said:


> Was this true with your custom profile Takeda, Mr. Magnus? Grind was bad after making a knife to your custom, blue printed specifications?


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## labor of love

panda said:


> Since getting a Takeda, all my other knives pretty much get neglected.



+1. Takeda seems to take to over the collection. Its the only gyuto i reach for anymore.


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## aaamax

Timthebeaver said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate, perhaps this is a good thing - if you want a Watanabe, buy a Watanabe - but as the maker intended it to be. It's what he knows/does best - through experience.



I'm with ya.

Plus, giving Takeda slack a couple of times is reasonable, but after a while it's BS.
We're talking about a guy who's work has gone up 100% in price in roughly 5 years. Who else can say that? Plus, less than stellar blades with QC all over the place. Folks, I'd be out of a job and no one would care.
Also, please take into account the Japanese work ethic where your REP is everything and where you MUST do your best at ALL times without excuses. 
Watanabe on the other hand is still rocking and rolling in terrific fashion, trying out some new things and keeping his prices reasonable. 
COme on guys, call it as you see it!


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## erikz

aaamax said:


> COme on guys, call it as you see it!


Thats what im doing. Both my knives from shosui are great knives.


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## Mr.Magnus

let the choil shots speak. 

when i got them



















Now


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## erikz

In your case I wouldnt be happy either Magnus!


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## Timthebeaver

Seriously unimpressive grind, no other way of putting it. 

I purchased a Takeda gyuto in 2008. It was pretty good (and much better ground, thinner with greater concavity than the one above) but not a game changer. My Yoshikane migaki is superior in every way, except it is a touch harder to sharpen.


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## labor of love

I like the original grind your knives had more magnus. Mine is like that but the bevels and the grind are a bit more asymetrical. Amazing for food release. And just a fantastic cutter all around.


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## EdipisReks

labor of love said:


> I like the original grind your knives had more magnus. Mine is like that but the bevels and the grind are a bit more asymetrical. Amazing for food release. And just a fantastic cutter all around.



Really? I guarantee it was wedge city.


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## labor of love

I made a 2 1/2 pans of hash browns (cubed style) quicker with my takeda than other gyutos ive used. No wedging great food release. I literally didnt have to stop to clean cut potatoes off my blade once. If potatoes are a good test for wedging then i would say my takeda performed well.


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## labor of love

Whats a good test for wedging? Sweet potatoes?


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## EdipisReks

labor of love said:


> Whats a good test for wedging? Sweet potatoes?



A big parsnip is a perfect test, but sweet potatoes are good, too. Regular potatoes don't wedge much.


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## panda

Wedging is not much of an issue with good technique. Those who can't alter geometries themselves shouldn't even bother with hand made knives.


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## XooMG

This usually is a telling test for me. The narrower section usually shows stiction well too.


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## EdipisReks

panda said:


> Wedging is not much of an issue with good technique. Those who can't alter geometries themselves shouldn't even bother with hand made knives.



Well sure, with proper technique delicate brain surgery should be perfectly feasible when using a chainsaw, and those who can't modify chains to suit their needs shouldn't even bother. 

The current Takedas look like crap, and the fact that he's perfectly willing to re-grind them suggests to me that he's taking advantage of the now famous name to pump as many knives out as possible, knowing that most buyers won't know any better.


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## Dave Kinogie

panda said:


> Wedging is not much of an issue with good technique. Those who can't alter geometries themselves shouldn't even bother with hand made knives.



IDK, I mean there is a difference between a knife which is awesome OOTB, but you know it needs to be opened up properly on the stones by someone who really knows what they're doing to be epic and a knife that is just meh as all hell OOTB, yet still costs a small fortune. 

I'm not talking about the Takeda's specifically, have no experience with them and am a complete novice when it comes to sharpening as well, just saying as an in general IMHO it's pretty absurd that a knife which cost nearly $300 isn't at least really good OOTB even if it isn't close to it's potential til it's done up for a couple hours to perfect it and bring the most out of it.


Like maybe an M3 isn't on the level of a Ferrari til a Dinan tuner gets their hands on it plus throws an extra 70K into it, but a stock M3 still shouldn't be some complete rough around the edges slopbox that can't compete with a Honda Civic Si. It should still be really really good right off the dealer floor and very enjoyable even if it isn't a complete world beater when it's stock.


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## labor of love

My only point is that mine doesnt seem to wedge. we do use butternut squash at work and next time i cut one I'll be sure to try the takeda on it. I think the reason for there isnt any wedging is because the big nasty shoulders everybody seems to dislike are pretty asymetric. From a choil view my left shoulder is more pronounced or wider and the right shoulder is maybe 3-4mm taller and much flatter. I think the wedging would occur if the shoulders more even and the bevels similar. But theyre not.


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## EdipisReks

I'd say you got lucky, then. The asymmetry probably helps a great deal.


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## ChefCosta

I have two Takeda knives that would seem to illustrate this issue well. The word I would use is "inconsistent" but it definitely would not keep me from recommending his knives. The combination of the materials used, edge retention and keenness are excellent for the money. They are functional, practical knives that bear the abuse of a professional kitchen well. I have a Mioroshi Deba that I bought two years ago that drives me absolutely nuts, and a Honesuki that I bought earlier this year that was the exact opposite. The photo speaks for itself. I'm going to severely thin that Mioroshi Deba. I thought it maybe I was just misunderstanding the edge, like it had something to do with his somewhat unorthodox (to my understanding) sharpening style but now I see it was just the grind. That or maybe something to do with the fact that he calls a double bevel knife a "Deba" which is obviously a thick and heavy knife. Thank you everyone!


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## Pensacola Tiger

ChefCosta said:


> I have two Takeda knives that would seem to illustrate this issue well. The word I would use is "inconsistent" but it definitely would not keep me from recommending his knives. The combination of the materials used, edge retention and keenness are excellent for the money. They are functional, practical knives that bear the abuse of a professional kitchen well. I have a Mioroshi Deba that I bought two years ago that drives me absolutely nuts, and a Honesuki that I bought earlier this year that was the exact opposite. The photo speaks for itself. I'm going to severely thin that Mioroshi Deba. I thought it maybe I was just misunderstanding the edge, like it had something to do with his somewhat unorthodox (to my understanding) sharpening style but now I see it was just the grind. That or maybe something to do with the fact that he calls a double bevel knife a "Deba" which is obviously a thick and heavy knife. Thank you everyone!



Takeda describes his "mioroshi-bocho" as a "long, narrow kitchen knife with a thick blade", and that's what you have. If you expected a knife with the geometry of a petty, then it's no wonder you are disappointed by it. It's never going to be good at dicing onions, or thinly slicing anything. That's what his petty knives and small yanagibas are good for.

My mioroshi-bocho was very useful for chopping nuts, cutting hard cheeses, and any task where a more delicate blade might be damaged. It was a great knife for breaking down chickens as the edge was able to survive contact with bones without any problems. As I recall, the edge that Takeda put on it was about 20 -25 degrees a side, and I tried to keep it that way. 

Rather than attempting to thin your mioroshi-bocho, I'd suggest selling it and getting a small Takeda yanagiba. I doubt that thinning is the answer.

Rick


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## ccarney2

I've been lurking here for quite a while, but obviously this is my first post. I just received my Takeda Nakiri Bocho on Monday, and am very pleased and pleasantly surprised after monitoring this thread and a similar one over on the This Site Not Allowed Here.com forum. I'll put up a few pics of the knife for assurance, but wanted y'all to know that my nakiri is beautifully shaped and even lighter than i expected. It's advertised as 5.2 oz over on CKTG and mine weighs in at 4.8. As you will see, the blade is super thin (hasn't been thinned or sharpened since i got it) and I've cut carrots, potatoes, parsnips, onion, celery, minced herbs, garlic, brunoised shallots, cut through confit pork belly, printer paper, my arm hair and anything else i'm forgetting. I work in a professional kitchen and have handled most of my coworkers' knives that i covet, and I know 100% that this takeda is the sharpest out of the box knife in our kitchen, and the most coveted among coworkers who have used it. Anyway, sorry about the wall of text, just wanted to make my opinion clearly stated. Here are some pics. Obligatory apology about quality.. Iphone **** cam.. 

So, as i said, i'm a newbie here and haven't quite figured out the whole "picture posting" thing. You'll find an album of 4 pics here:

http://imgur.com/a/LItzA

Edit: I can try to post any additional info/pics/vids if you would like.


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## labor of love

try an give your iphone a moment to focus before you take the choil shot pics. theyre kinda blurry. glad to hear your enjoying your knife. i work with a guy that loves his tanaka r2 nakiri, im trying to get him to upgrade to takeda. i hear nothing but good things about takeda nikiris.


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## James

if you put something like a match on the heel close to the choil and focus on the match, you can get a good shot of the choil


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## ccarney2

Thank you for the pointers KKF, i've taken a few more pics of the choil for a better understanding of the blade profile. If there are any more pointers on posting pics i'd be greatly encouraged, also if anything regarding pictures is more accepted please let me know. Below are a couple choil shots of my takeda nakiri. I am pleased.


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## ChefCosta

Pensacola Tiger,
I only butcher fish, seam bone and portion meat with the Mioroshi-bocho. I use it in situations where the blade height of my Hon-deba makes for awkward knife strokes. Like I said I had trouble understanding and following Takeda's grind on the Mioroshi. Could totally be my fault. The grind on the honesuki was easy to find and follow. It would be easy for me to assume in the context of the previous 10 pages of posts about "wedge monsters" that my issues with the Mioroshi may have something to do with the grind. My plan is to thin it at the shoulders, widening the blade road, and put a compound bevel on it for strength though that steel with his heat treatment probably doesn't need it. I believe that Takeda puts a clamshell bevel anyway.


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## panda

putting brain surgery and chainsaws into context is a bit extreme, but i'll bite on the car analogy. if one doesn't know how to drive manual transmission, then is it not logical to say that it's a bit nonsensical to use a 500HP sports car for learning? i know how to ride a motorcycle but have never actually owned one, and there's no way i would pick up a yamaha r1 as my first, more like kawasaki 250. by the way i love an m3 in stock form  civic si not so much but would totally own an s2000 if it weren't for those damn digital gauges. but cars aren't my thing, i drive a plain civic ex, maybe get an rsx-s later that's about it.

a purposely thick knife and complaining that it's not thin enough... i'll be nice and not touch that one, pensacola tiger has already explained the irony there.

thinness is not all there is to blade performance. if you really want thinner behind the edge then that can be dealt with. however if it wasn't forged properly and that hollow in the middle of the blade faces is jacked up or incomplete then that is worthy of sending back. i think some folks are over reacting and trying to attack the problem instead of circumventing it all together by going in a more optimal path. ie get something with less variables.

labor of love might be onto something with the asymmetry. i've come to realize that i grind the left shoulder smooth and keep the right one pretty 'wedgy' and it performs beautifully this way. 

on the other hand i'm willing to bet most takeda owners only got it because it looks cool not taking into considering its actual performance.


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## Pensacola Tiger

ChefCosta said:


> Pensacola Tiger,
> I only butcher fish, seam bone and portion meat with the Mioroshi-bocho. I use it in situations where the blade height of my Hon-deba makes for awkward knife strokes. Like I said I had trouble understanding and following Takeda's grind on the Mioroshi. Could totally be my fault. The grind on the honesuki was easy to find and follow. It would be easy for me to assume in the context of the previous 10 pages of posts about "wedge monsters" that my issues with the Mioroshi may have something to do with the grind. My plan is to thin it at the shoulders, widening the blade road, and put a compound bevel on it for strength though that steel with his heat treatment probably doesn't need it. I believe that Takeda puts a clamshell bevel anyway.



My remarks were based on the (incorrect) assumption that you were expecting something like a petty. The mioroshi I had was a shorter blade, but I don't recall a sharp shoulder. Your plan sounds as if it would work.





Rick


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## XooMG

panda said:


> on the other hand i'm willing to bet most takeda owners only got it because it looks cool not taking into considering its actual performance.


I got one because I was hoping to avoid purchasing a lot of knives and there was some hype about his nakiri on these fora that I fell for.

Now that I've mostly flattened the bevel, the thing seems to be an excellent anti-stick cutter with only slight wedge tendencies in thick stuff (it wedged in the raw 8cm carrot butt that I showed, but that's a little extreme). I might work on the asymmetry and final convexing a little to see if I can optimize it, but it's doing pretty well so far:


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## Mr.Magnus

labor of love said:


> I like the original grind your knives had more magnus. Mine is like that but the bevels and the grind are a bit more asymetrical. Amazing for food release. And just a fantastic cutter all around.



let's agree to disagree. i had to use more force on potatos once the shoulder hit the surface of the potatos and it didnt cut smoothly, wedged thruw things almost like ripping in half. same with carrots.


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## Mr.Magnus

panda said:


> Wedging is not much of an issue with good technique. Those who can't alter geometries themselves shouldn't even bother with hand made knives.



lol its not about "not beeing able to alter geometries" Not everyone has a grinding wheel in the livingroom nor willing to sit hours on a dmt plate to fix knives that are brand new and cost alot of money. When you pay a high price you want the knife to be done correctly not half done. Specially from a maker that have/had a very good reputation. Atleast thats what im expecting and many others to.


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## XooMG

Mr.Magnus said:


> lol its not about "not beeing able to alter geometries" Not everyone has a grinding wheel in the livingroom nor willing to sit hours on a dmt plate to fix knives that are brand new and cost alot of money. When you pay a high price you want the knife to be done correctly not half done. Specially from a maker that have/had a very good reputation. Atleast thats what im expecting and many others to.


I agree. I was paranoid about my knife after I paid for it, and would have been very very discouraged from the hobby had it been as bad as some have gotten. Some folks don't mind the work...I'm waiting for a 300-grit stone to finish working a Zakuri bevel and think it's kind of enjoyable...but the knife only cost me $45usd or so. I haven't bothered trying to work on my $200+ Asai and have been wondering if I should track someone down to help...it's just sitting unused in the next room.


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## Dave Kinogie

panda said:


> putting brain surgery and chainsaws into context is a bit extreme, but i'll bite on the car analogy. if one doesn't know how to drive manual transmission, then is it not logical to say that it's a bit nonsensical to use a 500HP sports car for learning? i know how to ride a motorcycle but have never actually owned one, and there's no way i would pick up a yamaha r1 as my first, more like kawasaki 250.


I mean, you pretty much took my whole analogy way out of context or moved the goal posts.

Not trying to be overly serious here, but I wasn't inferring anything about not knowing how to drive stick or being a wack new driver.

I am saying you buy an M3 cause you know it's sick value for the money and a super fast, sick, fun car. You don't buy it expecting a Ferrari, but you do know it has the potential to literally match a Ferrari's performance with less cache if you send it to an elite tuner like Dinan or AC Schnitzer and dump $70K+ into on top of the sticker price. 

So when you buy a knife like a Takeda, although you know it won't ever reach it's full potential if you don't either know how to put it to the stones yourself or send it to an ace pro sharpener, you still expect it to be straight tight out of the box. What you don't expect and shouldn't accept is it being comparable to some $80 project knife when it cost at least $260 new. 

But again, I wasn't personally speaking about the Takeda, I'm just calling it by name in this post because this is a Takeda thread, I was/am speaking on your original comment that you shouldn't buy a handmade knife if you can't change geometries, basically inferring novice sharpeners shouldn't expect top notch performance out of the box and instead should expect a lame project knife.


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## Mateyhv

Mr.Magnus said:


> lol its not about "not beeing able to alter geometries" Not everyone has a grinding wheel in the livingroom nor willing to sit hours on a dmt plate to fix knives that are brand new and cost alot of money. When you pay a high price you want the knife to be done correctly not half done. Specially from a maker that have/had a very good reputation. Atleast thats what im expecting and many others to.



lus1: Personally whenever I see "Takeda" now will just move away


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## Dave Kinogie

Just to add a couple thoughts I wasn't clear about...

Yes, with a handmade rustic style blade and really any knife, there is expected upkeep and maintenance and just some touching up to get it where it should be, I think most here understand that, just like in the analogy, where most who buy an M3 understand it's more finicky and demanding then a regular Bimmer, but to beat a dead horse, it doesn't mean knives like these should come out of the box underperforming to the extreme where they're only comparable to a blade at a price point akin to literally a 3rd of it's value or less. 

That is all haha.


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## Erilyn75

I'm by no means an expert on knives but I would think there would be some level of consistency even with a completely handmade knife given his expertise. 

It also makes me wonder if the people who receive the ones with no issues are the ones made by Takeda himself while the other ones, like my wedgie, was made by an apprentice. It is an awesome cutter though, after it was thinned.


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## EdipisReks

panda said:


> putting brain surgery and chainsaws into context is a bit extreme, but i'll bite on the car analogy.



It's called absurdum ad reductio, and this was a perfect use, if I do say so myself.


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## ccarney2

Here are the choil shots that i forgot to post last night of the straight out of the box takeda nakiri.

http://imgur.com/a/ETRdx


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## labor of love

ccarney2 said:


> Here are the choil shots that i forgot to post last night of the straight out of the box takeda nakiri.
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/ETRdx


Looks nice, i can see why you enjoy using it.


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## panda

jake, i still don't know what that means, i pretty much failed latin in HS lol. 

ccarney2 - yours looks great, keep on enjoying it without caution! eventually, you will have to thin both sides. i recommend you thin lightly every sharpening session. when i have a knife performing the way i want, i keep doing light thinning starting on a 600 stone. some will argue that's unnecessary removal of metal, but that's their take, i like doing it this way, means i won't have to do major work later on.


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## erikz

Always remove some of the secondary bevel to keep to profile as the maker intended. You wont be able to maintain the intended edge if you dont do so.


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## Linecooksharpener

I agree with this thread, my Takeda 270 mm Gyuto came with a wedger just 2 cm behind the edge and then was concave in the middle of the blade and tapered nicely towards the spine after. Some thinning later and she's a beaut but it took some time.


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## labor of love

erikz said:


> Always remove some of the secondary bevel to keep to profile as the maker intended. .



I think you mean geometry instead of profile, right?


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## vlad8

My experiences with takada was that it was wedging really bad when i got it. After 10 hours on the stones it performs great. it just slides though anything. Now the strip without the finish is much wider and it stains a lot.
It sharpens really fast and it has very good edge retention.


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## erikz

labor of love said:


> I think you mean geometry instead of profile, right?


True, sorry for mixing stuff up.


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## aaamax

vlad8 said:


> After 10 hours on the stones it performs great.


That's some dedication and tolerance right there.
If I spent 4+bones on a knife and had to spend that kind of time to get her running right, i'd hurt someone.
Again, some are willing to cut him a LOT of slack.


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## Leo Barr

I recently bought a Takeda folding Higo and I was surprised to find it was scandi ground cut beautifully .As for the spate of thicker Takedas ( I would love one -perhaps nest year) I do not own one I did buy a 7" Honyaki Usuba - Takagi which I felt was a bit broad on the beam which I have thinned down( since it is an Honyaki I hardly change possible +5&#730; the angle at the bevel and since my original raising the original Shinogi line I now sharpen from that line each time maintaining the new geometry. 
I enjoy making my knives fit my needs I have a Seki cut Yangiba and i have thinned it down from the Shinogi a couple of times I think to a certain extent if you want the best ideally you need to know how to sharpen and thin it . 
I bought one knife with Hap 40 steel bevel and I needed to sharpen it immediately it was hardly cutting through a pepper skin.
Perhaps part of the deal of leaving Takedas thick is so that it allows for personal edge preferences some may favour an asymmetric bevel 70-30 or more radical this thick edge gives the owner a choice thin it symmetrically or put an asymmetric bevel on it . I like the idea of having some surplus steel to deal with and I guess it accommodates less disciplined use of it.
If I wanted a bog standard out the box knife i would buy a Kai Shun - I do have one which was my first Japanese knife but I much prefer the knives I have worked on to the Shun .


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## panda

Sliced focaccia for croutons with my Takeda today and it worked better than mac bread knife. Smooth like butter and not one crumb left behind..


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## Bill13

That's exactly what I have found. I did not want to use a bread knife on my new new cutting board so a few months I have started using my Takeda gyoto and it works great. The bread knife is now been removed from the knife rack.


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## vlad8

aaamax said:


> That's some dedication and tolerance right there.
> If I spent 4+bones on a knife and had to spend that kind of time to get her running right, i'd hurt someone.
> Again, some are willing to cut him a LOT of slack.



Don't get me wrong I think people should stop buying his knives until he fixes that. If I knew it is gong to take that much time I was going to return it right away.


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## Pensacola Tiger

vlad8 said:


> Don't get me wrong I think people should stop buying his knives until he fixes that. If I knew it is gong to take that much time I was going to return it right away.



Meh. I just got a stainless clad gyuto that is just fine. I think you're overreacting, to put it mildly.


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## cazhpfan

I just picked up a very lightly used Takeda 210mm gyuto.

Images of blade and choil are available here: imgur.com/a/EGHHq

What do you think about the geometry given the recent quality control issues?


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## Pensacola Tiger

cazhpfan said:


> I just picked up a very lightly used Takeda 210mm gyuto.
> 
> Images of blade and choil are available here: imgur.com/a/EGHHq
> 
> What do you think about the geometry given the recent quality control issues?



Looking at choil pictures is a poor way to assess a knife, although is does give some information. How does the knife perform?


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## erikz

cazhpfan said:


> I just picked up a very lightly used Takeda 210mm gyuto.
> 
> Images of blade and choil are available here: imgur.com/a/EGHHq
> 
> What do you think about the geometry given the recent quality control issues?


Does it really matter what we think of the geometry based on a picture? Try it out  Cut some stuff and see if you like the way it performs, thats what matters in the end!


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## cazhpfan

Yes, I know that I should cut something and see how it works. Sadly, there was nothing that needed to be cut yesterday. :knife:

I was mostly hoping folks would have a look at the geometry and give a broad-strokes assessment based on their experience (this is a popular knife, after all).

The knife is forged very thin throughout, and, even if the shoulders at the top of the secondary bevel are too thick, I guess I could thin it out (like others have done).


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## Pensacola Tiger

cazhpfan said:


> Yes, I know that I should cut something and see how it works. Sadly, there was nothing that needed to be cut yesterday. :knife:
> 
> I was mostly hoping folks would have a look at the geometry and give a broad-strokes assessment based on their experience (this is a popular knife, after all).
> 
> The knife is forged very thin throughout, and, even if the shoulders at the top of the secondary bevel are too thick, I guess I could thin it out (like others have done).



One of the things that makes Takedas geometry different from other knives is a mid blade concavity that assists in food release (at least on those I have). This may cause you to think that there is a thinning issue where there is none. That's why I suggested cutting with it first.


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## cazhpfan

Mine definitely has the mid-blade concavity. I'll report back after I sharpen the blade and put it to use.



Pensacola Tiger said:


> One of the things that makes Takedas geometry different from other knives is a mid blade concavity that assists in food release (at least on those I have). This may cause you to think that there is a thinning issue where there is none. That's why I suggested cutting with it first.


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## erikz

Good luck, I hope you enjoy your Takeda like I enjoy both of mine


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## cazhpfan

Thank you! :doublethumbsup:



erikz said:


> Good luck, I hope you enjoy your Takeda like I enjoy both of mine


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## Melampus

Mr.Magnus said:


> Both my takedas had poor grinds or to be honest SH*T grinds. i sent them both back and he regrind them both.



I tested one of them, the custom, and it was bad... I mean really bad. I see it & hear it in all 3 onions, but really pay attention to third. Watch how it splays the onion on the horizontal slices, and listen to how loud it is as it sounds like it's being pried open. Same on the vertical slices; you'll hear the drag & see how the blade doesnt naturally chop all the way to the board. The shoulders created so much drag, as they wedged into the onions, you had to pay attention to really force it through. Extremely underwhelming... disappointing, at least.:eyebrow: 

[video=youtube;PG4ueCBbzo8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG4ueCBbzo8[/video]

As expected, the AS took a great edge, but it was a bit heavier than I expected:









And here is the size of the original grind:


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## labor of love

so even after takeda reground the knife it doesnt perform well? melampus, could you take a choil pic?


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## MowgFace

I believe this is before the regrind.


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## Dave Martell

> *Subject: Takeda*
> 
> CKTG said:
> 
> Ever since I started selling them about 4-5 years ago there have been people that love them or hate them. The thing I object to is having a direct competitor and someone that calls himself a knife maker bad mouth him. Pretty low class if you ask me.
> 
> I had a customer buy a Takeda recently and then for some inexplicable reason sent it to cry baby for finish sharpening (they don't need it but whatever). Cry baby told him that the knife was defective and he couldn't sharpen it and to return it. I suggested he send the knife to Ken Schwartz to check it out and sharpen it if he thought it was ok. There of course was nothing wrong with the knife and the guy was thrilled with the knife and the sharpening job.
> 
> I've had this same experience with about a half dozen customers for a variety of knives.




The blind screwing the blind. :clown:


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## brianh

I am LOVING my Watanabe nakiri. I couldn't get though half a carrot or even smoothly cut celery with a Takeda nakiri.


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## Dave Martell

brianh said:


> I am LOVING my Watanabe nakiri. I couldn't get though half a carrot or even smoothly cut celery with a Takeda nakiri.




You can't be correct. Please change your story.


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## Dave Martell

So here's a Takeda gyuto that was purchased new and wedged bad OTB. The owner returned the knife to the maker to have him fix it. The before & after are shown in the picture below.

Can you see the difference? 







Remember, Takeda has made good knives, to ensure that your retailer is providing you with a good one - ask for pictures!


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## Talim

Dave Martell said:


> The blind screwing the blind. :clown:



I had to laugh at that line from the forum run by a vendor who sells these knives. Let's see how long he keeps his words of taking these knives back if it didn't meet customer's expectations.


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## Melampus

*LABOR <>* *MOWG* is correct, in that, I tested Mr. Magnus's knife when it was originally fabricated. I was actually the first one to use it, even before he. It has been repaired, and is on it US tour, right now. I'm last to receive it which should be in a little over a month. I'm excited to see *MR.M's* design perform to its potential. 

*MR.M* did tell me the profile was modified slightly by the regrind whereas the union of the two distinct flat spots was radiused off a bit creating a bit of a belly... if you can call it that in such a small portion of blade. Nonetheless, *MR.M's* radical design was, admittedly, for shits & giggles. Said radius should, in my mind, employ more usable length in a rock/glide/walk. I can't find the video I captured, but the first profile would pivot off the head of the rear flat spot so if you were walking herbs, e.g., you only had that flat spot minus the pivot point available to cut; the entire tip flat spot was never employed - cutting a 240 down to say a 200. I think *MR.M's* design would be more appropriate in the 260-280mm range because it was, before the regrind, truly two knives in one blade. It was peculiar as it looked/acted like a KoBocho as the tip flat spot, and then a flat profiled Gyuto as the rear flat spot. I would have liked both flat spots to be longer for them to had acted more efficiently. I didn't realize any particular benefit to the tip flat spot in chopping scenarios as I believe *MR.M* imagined it would, but again, he did it entirely as an experiment. I think if it was longer maybe it would have, but honestly, the knife was so unenjoyable I didn't want to use it anymore than the 2.5 days I put it through.


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## Mr.Magnus

Yeah the shinogi line is abit higher now :laugh:


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## erikz

I love that handle Magnus!


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## Dave Martell

Post deleted.


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## Dave Martell

Well I wasn't going to post this but here goes anyway....

I sharpened a Takeda gyuto today. It has an "S" stamped on the blade, what does this mean...Sasanoha or stainless or ???
It has the new style short thick bevel. I accepted the job to see how this "S" version would sharpen. I found a couple of interesting & unique things for me to see.

I mentioned the thick bevel already, yeah it was a thick one but not as thick as most I've seen, just way thicker than the old stuff has been. The things that stood out were the angles that the bevels were ground in at and how the knife de-burred. 

I've sharpened an assload of Takedas over the years and two constants have always been seen (except for debas)....

The first is that the bevels are always VERY shallow especially on the left side. A guess would be less than 10deg on the right and even less than that on the left. This gyuto had angles about 15 deg on the right and 20+ on the left!!!!! Yes I had to raise the left side so high to hit the edge that it took me 5 times to get it right, I just couldn't believe what I was seeing.

The second thing always noted on Takedas is how easily they take an edge and come up burr free. This particular knife was an absolute ***** to deburr. I've never seen anything even remotely like this on a Takeda.

Maybe the steep thick angle had something to do with the deburring problem, I can't say. I know that I didn't enjoy the experience though. 

There's the facts as I see them.


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## panda

so even the steel is not the same? i got a brand new one not too long ago directly from takeda and it too needed bevels raised and thinned (a lot), but it is super easy to sharpen/deburr. 

my advice is for potential buyers: if youre not prepared to do some work or have it sent away to get work done, dont bother with one. easy as that right??

it seems there are knives coming out that aren't completely finished products. that sucks, but it doesnt make the knife a crappy one as i think the view on them has been tainted.


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## Dave Martell

I wouldn't condemn or point fingers from this one knife. For now it's an anomaly.


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## XooMG

If I were in the USA, I'd send you mine to look at, even though I think I've got a pretty nice knife.


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## mark76

I got my knife back from Takeda. Wow, what a difference! It cuts like a dream now.

They should do this immediately for every knife that leaves their workshop. It's a bit hard to take choil shots, but I hope you can see the difference.

Before:





After:


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## Matus

Mark, the image 'before' looks more like a cleaver than a gyuto. I did (and do) play with the idea of trying out a Takeda, but I will make sure to have a return option if I were to do so. Did you by any chance measure the thickness of the blade at some closer distance to the edge before you sent it for re-grind?


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## mark76

Matus said:


> Mark, the image 'before' looks more like a cleaver than a gyuto. I did (and do) play with the idea of trying out a Takeda, but I will make sure to have a return option if I were to do so. Did you by any chance measure the thickness of the blade at some closer distance to the edge before you sent it for re-grind?



Hahah, it's not even a gyuto, but a sujihiki. Before the regrind it was slightly over 1 mm at 0.5 cm from the edge... Haven't measured it after the regrind yet, but it looks good to the eye.


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## Melampus

*MARK <>* It is hard to tell from your _after_ photo, but it appears as if they now employed a convex grind. Am I correct, or is it just the photo?


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## Dave Martell

Update>

Takeda has become the #1 knifemaker that I get requests to modify/fix. 

Reason = Too thick/sucks at cutting



Yeah folks, I'm not even close to exaggerating the problem here. I'm getting multiple requests per week to fix these knives. I turn them down because these knives are not at all easy to thin correctly (that's by hand on stones). I won't do this work anymore to these knives as it's just not worth the effort/cost/profit/or risk.


As I posted originally in this thread - *Buyer Beware!*


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## aboynamedsuita

Wow, the new Moritaka :groucho:

Kinda too bad because they do have a certain appeal to them


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## ecchef

Dave, does this apply to basic sharpening as well and will you still do older Takedas?


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## Ucmd

I have an old takeda and I luv it. So glad I got one before they when to crap


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## Dave Martell

ecchef said:


> Dave, does this apply to basic sharpening as well and will you still do older Takedas?




Oh I'll always sharpen them, I just can't do the thin the blade thing like people need with these new knives.


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## Godslayer

tjangula said:


> Wow, the new Moritaka :groucho:
> 
> Kinda too bad because they do have a certain appeal to them



I played with a 300mm at knifewear. It felt special. Really regret not buying it.


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## mark76

Melampus said:


> *MARK <>* It is hard to tell from your _after_ photo, but it appears as if they now employed a convex grind. Am I correct, or is it just the photo?



Melampus, I missed your message from almost a year ago  . You're right, it is convex but only very slightly.


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## preizzo

Takeda has a tremendous steel but yes the geometry of the blade it s a bit ******. I never try one of the old takeda but I guess they were a bit more like mine after three hours of stone.


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## preizzo

I took a lot of material from the blade and now has a super thin blade.


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## Bill13

That looks nice, how long did it take for you to thin it?


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## preizzo

Around three hours split in two days &#128516;


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## Keith Sinclair

Good job thinning it out. You are correct it does look similar to older grind. My 270mm has no bulge behind the edge. There is a very slight concave on the wide blade face can hardly see it. Do not know why the changed the gring the old one really works well.


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## preizzo

I am only a bit sad that the kurouchi finish it went out &#128546;


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## preizzo

It was cool with that finish, now it looks like super used, but I use it only a few weeks.


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## MAS4T0

After doing so much work on it why not remove the KU and polish the blade?

It'd make it look better than new and would be pretty quick work compared to what you've already done.


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## aboynamedsuita

Godslayer said:


> I played with a 300mm at knifewear. It felt special. Really regret not buying it.


I had a 240ish AS gyuto but sold it before I had the chance to use after deciding NAS was what I really wanted. I got a lemon NAS gyuto, which was promptly returned, then had a 4+ month wait for my replacement. The replacement is special (apparently) the vendor was placing an order with Shosui and emailed the lemon pics and we discussed how I wanted the large NAS gyuto as that was the 270ish size, well I got exactly 270 and the F&F is much better than the other three NAS knives I've seen. I just wish I knew about the old style grind, but this is all before my time as a KKF member. That said it cuts well, but I may still thin or knock off the shoulders on the pink brick I got from Dave (thanks again )



keithsaltydog said:


> Good job thinning it out. You are correct it does look similar to older grind. My 270mm has no bulge behind the edge. There is a very slight concave on the wide blade face can hardly see it. Do not know why the changed the gring the old one really works well.


All I could think is that with the increased popularity, more people who were not knife savvy were getting into Takedas and messing up the delicate edge, so they they tried to blunt it and make it more robust?


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## jklip13

> All I could think is that with the increased popularity, more people who were not knife savvy were getting into Takedas and messing up the delicate edge, so they they tried to blunt it and make it more robust?



Bingo


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## ynot1985

if you order this direct from Shosui and ask for a thinner grind/edge, would he do it or does he only do it based on a one size fits all approach?

just wondering as I have only ordered JNATS from him (great to deal with) and I wouldn't mind one of the his knives


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## Valerian

Hi guys

I just ordered a 240 mm Aogami Gyuto from Chubo knives and then stumbled upon this thread. I'm quite bummed. Are there only lemons or can I hope to receive a useable knife? I live in Switzerland, maybe I can send the knife to Takeda to thin it down?


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## brianh

I talked to him a year or two ago about custom ordering his older grind and he wasn't interested, not thinking there were any cutting issues with his current knives (obviously).


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## mark76

I had my mine reground by Takeda (Soshui) about a year ago. That went fine.


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## Valerian

Thanks for your answers, guys. I'll see what I get and take it from there...


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## Dave Martell

Mr. Mackey shows us the problems with Takeda's new style grind....

_*Note - ignore the poor demo on cutting where the knife slips, it just isn't finished enough to bite. The following images (attached in the video) show the grind issue clearly. 
_

[video=youtube;zEc_4Y9ws98]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEc_4Y9ws98[/video]


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## Keith Sinclair

A student brought in a stainless clad Takeda 240mm. It had not been sharpened yet and was a resent purchase. It did not have grind problems was very thin all the way to the cutting edge. One thing I noticed it had quite a bit of flex. The edge was so thin I raised a burr at around 5% put a less than 15% micro bevel on it.


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## Mynci

The new heat treatment issue aside.... (actually sounds more like what happens when steel has not hardened properly to me.)
The thickness issue is down to stainless steel cladding I would be sure of it, combined with training apprentices.
Stainless is heat short, makes it quite hsrd to do as you would do when forging a carbon steel, which from an annealed state you can pretty much do the final thinning at a dull red to cold heat. If you hit stainless at full red it won't move far at all...so you work it hotter and contend with the scale... I got some pieces super thin in stainless forged geometry but it took some doing... not as practical match as carbon steel for the process.
The other issue with stainless San mai is its really sucks up the carbon from the core, 
If I had a floppy burr issue with a stainless clad knife I would immediately be thinking carbon migration... and add a slice of pure nickel to remedy this.

Loved the early Takeda I tried years ago, the thinness and geometry profile achieved from forging is really something special and skill full to achieve.


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## bryan03

not bad for a first post .


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## btbyrd

After a ton of research, I'd settled on the 210 gyuto for myself... but this thread has got me paranoid.


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## Matus

bryan03 said:


> not bad for a first post .



+1 

Welcome Mynci!


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## philipj

Mynci said:


> The other issue with stainless San mai is its really sucks up the carbon from the core,
> If I had a floppy burr issue with a stainless clad knife I would immediately be thinking carbon migration... and add a slice of pure nickel to remedy this.



Is there some reason stainless would be worse than any other low carbon reactive cladding?


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## TB_London

philipj said:


> Is there some reason stainless would be worse than any other low carbon reactive cladding?



AFAIK takes a lot more heat to stick them together, and migration is linked to time and temperature


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## Mynci

In terms of forging.... its heat short... meaning it won't move much at dull red forging heats like plain mild steel and iron can... making them ideally suited to the process of forged geometry... 
in terms of carbon migration. Everything in forge welding including carbon migration is an equation of time/temperature/pressure used so there are different ways to go about making the weld...and with perfectly clean and flat surfaces, forged under high pressure for more timein a perfect vacuum you could lower temperature well below liquidous... this is called non liquidous diffusion bonding... but in general stainless requires more heat and more time due to it being less thermally conductive.. if you build yourself a vacuum sealed c or h frame press/kiln welds can be done colder... in sure this is used in industry but not by your small shop... who will rely on making a hotter weldwith more time at temperature I am also informed by a blade specialist metallurgist that stainless takes on more carbon due to its alloy make up but I'm not a metallurgist ... but this matches with my long term experiences.


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## FoRdLaz

Another mind blowing post Mynci! Would love to know what your background is?


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## philipj

That makes good sense, thanks TB_London and Mynci! I guess thats why everyone raves about the Takeda heat treat, to keep the properties of the core aogami super from (literally..) dissipating.


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## btbyrd

Interesting to hear about this issue, especially with so much stainless clad AS coming to market recently. My big workhorses - gyuto, nakiri, and sujihiki - have super blue cores and stainless cladding. I assume Takeda and Anryu know what they're doing though.


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## SilverSwarfer

Help please... I thought I’d use an existing relevant thread for this:

I bought one of the Super Yanagi Takeda 240mm in 2016. Super thin, super light, really frustrating user. The blade is so flexible I can’t effectively cut anything more than 1/4 distance from the choil. 

It’s so fragile and flexible that in my first sharpening. I found the blade drifted to the right. By drifted, I mean it’s bent on a curve. It’s really easy to just bend it back straight again. Which seems ridiculous but could be tolerable if it was an extraordinary performer. But it’s not. I have used other sujihiki that are similarly thin and fragile but they flex back true instead of bending. I said sujihiki because this “yanagi” is really a sujihiki. Anyway, others perform similarly without significant flex. 

I let one of our apprentices use this to cut rolls for a few months because he likes it and it performs great for that use. He gave it back to me sharp and clean. But the spine looks like the Blue Ridge Parkway. 

Of course I’m exaggerating with that last comment. But this knife has issues. It’s not straight and it can’t stay straight. You can’t guide a slice with your off hand without flexing the blade, no matter how easily you apply lateral pressure in progressive cuts. 

Any similar frustration out there? Is it possible I got a lead lemon or a poor heat treat? The cladding is ultra soft (evidence from sharpening). I wonder if the cladding is causing the bends?


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## labor of love

That sucks. I had a takeda 240mm suji and I liked it a lot. That being said-yeah lot of takedas do feel like they can bend easily.


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## Corradobrit1

Sounds like a HT issue. My Konosuke 240 and both TF 210 gyutos are reasonably thin along the spine yet have virtually no flex. Kono is mild steel san mai and the TFs stainless, all heat treated to 64-65HRC


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## lemeneid

So which has a more crap grind and needs more work? TF or Takeda? Don’t own a Takeda but I’ve tried one and it was amazing to cut with. Just not my flavor as I tend to heavier knives.


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## madelinez

I don't think it's worth trying to change the grind on a Takeda, either buy one and enjoy using it on the things it works well on, or just buy another knife. They're not a generalist knife, you could try and turn them into one but it's really not worth the effort considering cheaper better alternatives (and the fact you'll lose some of that amazing food release).


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## labor of love

madelinez said:


> I don't think it's worth trying to change the grind on a Takeda, either buy one and enjoy using it on the things it works well on, or just buy another knife. They're not a generalist knife, you could try and turn them into one but it's really not worth the effort considering cheaper better alternatives (and the fact you'll lose some of that amazing food release).


Yep. Thinning a takeda is one thing-changing the grind is another. Even hardcore thinning of a worn out takeda sucks. Best to just get one with a grind you like and maintain the geometry as best you can.


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## Jville

madelinez said:


> I don't think it's worth trying to change the grind on a Takeda, either buy one and enjoy using it on the things it works well on, or just buy another knife. They're not a generalist knife, you could try and turn them into one but it's really not worth the effort considering cheaper better alternatives (and the fact you'll lose some of that amazing food release).



I never understood the whole ultra thinking thing either. Why not just buy a straight up laser? I've really enjoyed the takedas I own and owned.


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## Jville

Corradobrit1 said:


> Sounds like a HT issue. My Konosuke 240 and both TF 210 gyutos are reasonably thin along the spine yet have virtually no flex. Kono is mild steel san mai and the TFs stainless, all heat treated to 64-65HRC



This doesn't make sense to me about crediting it to heat treatment issue. Takeda is supposed to have a very nice version of AS, none of the ones I tried suggest less. The new kono fujis(not sure if that's the kono you are referring to) are somewhat thin knives, but are probably still thicker to than some takeda classics . The classics are supposed to be thinner. The NAS Takeda nakiri I had was nice and stiff. The NAS ones may generally be stiffer. Takeda tells you that the classics bend easy and that the NAS are hard to bend. In the case of a classic suji that long whispy blade may just be really flexy.


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## Noodle Soup

Jville said:


> This doesn't make sense to me about crediting it to heat treatment issue. Takeda is supposed to have a very nice version of AS, none of the ones I tried suggest less. The new kono fujis(not sure if that's the kono you are referring to) are somewhat thin knives, but are probably still thicker to than some takeda classics . The classics are supposed to be thinner. The NAS Takeda nakiri I had was nice and stiff. The NAS ones may generally be stiffer. Takeda tells you that the classics bend easy and that the NAS are hard to bend. In the case of a classic suji that long whispy blade may just be really flexy.


_I've had to straighten my Takeda petty a number of times over the years. It doesn't take much lateral pressure to give it an angle. Bought from the maker at the Blade show in Atlanta maybe 15-20 years ago. _


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## Noodle Soup

I should probably add that I have never had any problems with his larger, wider blades bending.


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## SilverSwarfer

madelinez said:


> I don't think it's worth trying to change the grind on a Takeda, either buy one and enjoy using it on the things it works well on, or just buy another knife. They're not a generalist knife, you could try and turn them into one but it's really not worth the effort considering cheaper better alternatives (and the fact you'll lose some of that amazing food release).


I appreciate this comment. It is absolutely reasonable and probably inevitable to find a knife many agree is excellent, but you find unusable. 

I seriously doubt they would have stamped their marks on the blade if this knife was so far out of spec. 

So the reality is that this just didn’t work out for me and I know more now. 

Interesting to note that the Masakage Koishi 270mm sujihiki I bought last month is _exactly_ the expected/acceptable stiffness. In contrast, this blade has a more discernible distal taper. It’s also AS core, and a joy to sharpen.


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## labor of love

For what it’s worth you could always send your takeda back to the company for repair.


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## Jville

Noodle Soup said:


> I should probably add that I have never had any problems with his larger, wider blades bending.



I have a takeda classic cleaver. I won't say its stiff for a cleaver, but it's stiff enough.


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## SilverSwarfer

I may do that. In addition the pile of epoxy at the handle/tang has detached and half-chipped away.


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## milkbaby

I think the biggest issue is (was?) the huge variation in the knives in profile/size, forged geometry, and bevel grind. I bet that flexy suji (double bevel yanagi) was forged out way thin.

The hardened core will have a higher yield point where it bends and takes a permanent set instead of springing back, but the softer cladding will take a set at lower limit. This is supposed to be a benefit of san mai, i.e. easier to straighten versus monosteel. Basically the core steel wants to spring back to whatever is the lowest stress shape but can be held in place by the bent (or straight depending on the case) cladding.


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