# Moritaka - how long?



## Dave Martell

I wonder how long will this go on - how many more people I'll have to disappoint with the news that their knife is no good? How long will these knives continue to be sold here? 

As you might be able to guess I just got another bad one in where I had to tell another customer that I can't work on his knife. Another $150 down the crapper for the customer.....another $150 in the bank for the vendor.


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## Lefty

I'm not saying this to cause any trouble, but perhaps we can write a polite letter on behalf of ALL OF US, to Akiko to express our concerns. I was close to getting a knife made a while back, and Akiko was great to deal with. 
Is there a chance that the problem areas are going unnoticed? I really don't think Moritaka is trying to rip anyone off.


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## WildBoar

Hopefully they have some recourse with the vendor. It's good of you to be brutally honest with the customer like that vs trying unsuccessfully to fix/ tune, which would result in their inability to return the knife.


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## Lefty

Dave, could you take a 210 Moritaka gyuto with this issue and bring the entire edge towards the spine, turning it into a suji-esque knife?
I realize that would be a pain, but I'm just wondering if they are at all salvageable. Better to have a $150 Moritaka suji, than a $150 cheese knife.


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## mikemac

I think it depends on how much core steel is inserted in the cladding...there is a picture of the process on Moritaka's web site, and while I'm sure it varies, every time I've see that process (others do it to, nothing wrong with it) it looks like the core is about 1/4th the size od the cladding (i.e. 1/2" piece of core inserted into 2" piece opf cladding)


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## Cadillac J

Dave, from what I always interpreted from your 'hole in the edge' explanation was that the problem seemed to be fixable if you had the time/patience to grind enough off to get 'past' the over-grind. 

Is this a false assumption?


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## Lefty

Great point, Mike!
You would definitely run into a core steel issue with my potential "solution". 
It would likely be a case by case...case(?)


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## mikemac

Oh yeah...just not sure how much...if the spine to edge is 50mm, does core steel extend up from the edge 10mm?, 20mm? who knows. I think you could sand the choil, and then force a quick patina to see if you identify core (I'm really guessing)...but the real point is somebody bought a $150 knife and immediately faces a $50 - $100 or ?? repair job to have a chunk of their knife ground down.

For those of you new to the world of knife knuts...this is an old issue, so apparently the maker chooses to deny or ignore the flaw, and it is a flaw that even experienced knife knuts cannot usually detect.


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## Lefty

I would imagine so, but has anyone written Akiko and the crew to mention the issue?


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## Dave Martell

On this knife I have here now the edge is wavy along it's length which is a problem more with sloppy work but this is fixable, the real problem lies in just above the edge where (both sides) have deep grinds into the bevels. It's real tricky on this knife because it's almost OK for one touch up sharpening job but I'd guarantee that after this any and all subsequent sharpening work will expose the hole more and more. The heal is low hanging but isn't at all the issue, it's the grinds on the bevels on the side of the knife.

FWIW, going to Moritaka and/or their US vendors will do no good, I've been there and done that. 

Hey maybe I should ask for folks to send me every Moritaka that's ever been sold in the US so that I can inspect them all and then gather all of the defective ones together and then ask the vendor for a return? Maybe then they'll listen?


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## stevenStefano

Any chance you could show a few pictures of what you mean Dave?


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## Dave Martell

stevenStefano said:


> Any chance you could show a few pictures of what you mean Dave?




I've tried to capture this with my camera before but it's impossible to do. If you were standing next to me you could see it in an instant if shown.


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## JohnnyChance

I have a CCK 1303 that is overground in one section. When new, almost the entire length of the blade made contact with the board, except for a little bit at the heel and tip. Now there is a good inch-plus in the middle of the edge that does not make contact with the board. I have only sharpened it a few times. You can't see it other than where it doesnt make contact with the board, but once you know it is there you can feel the overground section as well. But at least it was $35 and not $150.


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## Dave Martell

I wish this didn't bother me so much and I didn't feel the need to make these posts, I'm just so sick of having to tell another person that I can't fix their new knife. Oh and to make matters worse I won't add to their problems so I won't charge to return ship it back to them. Imagine how much money I've lost in postal fees alone, if I told you how much I've lost in being burnt by working on these knives you'd shudder. I'm just tired of this whole thing with them.


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## mhlee

Dave Martell said:


> I wish this didn't bother me so much and I didn't feel the need to make these posts, I'm just so sick of having to tell another person that I can't fix their new knife. Oh and to make matters worse I won't add to their problems so I won't charge to return ship it back to them. Imagine how much money I've lost in postal fees alone, if I told you how much I've lost in being burnt by working on these knives you'd shudder. I'm just tired of this whole thing with them.


 
I'm sure your customers REALLY appreciate you not charging return shipping, but over the course of time, that's a HUGE expense. (I know from receiving several packages from you and sending knives by mail.) 

Perhaps you could return their knives by regular, non-priority mail, instead of shipping them back for free?


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## Mattias504

You should just make it known that you won't deal with Moritaka anymore. Sounds like a money hole draining away....


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## bikehunter

Dave Martell said:


> FWIW, going to Moritaka and/or their US vendors will do no good, I've been there and done that.



So...What does "will do no good" mean, exactly? Akiko just tells you to go piss up a rope, or what? A post like this on the forum will clearly have an affect on those who may have been considering a Moritaka. Seems to me more elaboration would be appropriate (maybe you've mentioned this in the past with more details and I missed it)

In the past couple years I've very nearly pulled the trigger on a Moritaka, several times...because of all the glowing praise I'd read. Clearly, I'm now glad I didn't. There has to be some reason for this drop in quality control. Too many orders to spend the time necessary for a quality knife? A major change in the shop...equipment, change of knife maker, short handed? When I was communicating with Moritaka regarding a knife, Akiko was easily the most helpful, and seemingly honest, person I tried to deal with, with regard to handmade Japanese knives. I've seen many posts on various forums, affirming that opinion. Seems like there must be some logical reason for the drop in quality, and it seems odd that you get no positive response from Moritaka. Shrug


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## Cadillac J

Mattias504 said:


> You should just make it known that you won't deal with Moritaka anymore. Sounds like a money hole draining away....


 
I could of sworn you stopped accepting them for sharpening/fixes over a year ago...no?


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## bieniek

bikehunter said:


> So...A post like this clearly have an affect on those who may have been considering a Moritaka.


 
Oh yes they do have affect. I was just going to get one, when i read the last tread where Dave mentioned that "issue" and from then on I prefer to spend my money wiser.
But big respect to you Dave for bringing it up so sharply. 
Cannot believe that maker of this reputation is doing that, and doing it continusly.


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## echerub

Dave's mentioned this issue with Moritakas for quite some time now - and yeah, I could've sworn you weren't taking in Moritakas anymore, Dave...


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## rockbox

Dave Martell said:


> On this knife I have here now the edge is wavy along it's length which is a problem more with sloppy work but this is fixable, the real problem lies in just above the edge where (both sides) have deep grinds into the bevels. It's real tricky on this knife because it's almost OK for one touch up sharpening job but I'd guarantee that after this any and all subsequent sharpening work will expose the hole more and more. The heal is low hanging but isn't at all the issue, it's the grinds on the bevels on the side of the knife.
> 
> FWIW, going to Moritaka and/or their US vendors will do no good, I've been there and done that.
> 
> Hey maybe I should ask for folks to send me every Moritaka that's ever been sold in the US so that I can inspect them all and then gather all of the defective ones together and then ask the vendor for a return? Maybe then they'll listen?


 
I don't think most customers really notice or care. Unfortunately, you only get the customers that do. Its kind like buying tools from harbor freight. They aren't that good, but they get the job done most of the time. Unfortunately you get the customer that sends you his harbor freight table saw expecting you to tune it up so it can perform like a Delta.


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## Dave Martell

Cadillac J said:


> I could of sworn you stopped accepting them for sharpening/fixes over a year ago...no?




Yeah I did but started to take them again after seeing a few good ones. I still get some good ones too once in awhile but there's a lot more bad ones out there then good....unfortunately.


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## Dave Martell

The problem here is that they're being sold at a price point that almost entry level - bang for buck type of thing. People coming into these knives see them as a good deal and snag them up but these are exactly the guys who lack the experience to see the problem hence the maker and seller get away with it.


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## BertMor

Small solution, not for the knife but you. Why not tell people you will onle accept them on spec and that they need to pay for return postage in advance. This way they can choose if its worth it to them it to send you a knife without knowing in advance if you can actually fix/sharpen it.


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## echerub

That sounds like a pretty fair way to do it.


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## mikemac

bikehunter said:


> So...What does "will do no good" mean, exactly? ..... There has to be some reason for this drop in quality control. ....be some logical reason for the drop in quality, and it seems odd that you get no positive response from Moritaka. Shrug


 
Will do no good means just that....they really just do not acknowledge there is a problem, and trying to discuss it , thru e mail, in two seperate languages has got to be insane, But you have to understand - there is no problem, except with you.

Also - there is no drop in quality control. This is the way it's been for 2 - 3 (??) years. Or more. Like I said, really smart people who are also knife knuts were unable to detect the defect. Dave pointed it out, and then there was an ah-ha moment. And then there was a war. The logical reason you don't get a positive response from Moritaka is simple. In there mind there is no problem. 

There are two camps on this issue...Dave, who probably hand sharpens more knives in a month than most of us will ever read about, and who gives freely of his time, energy and knowlegde for the benefit of us knife knuts. And then there is the other camp, which believes that in the world of $3000 - $5000 Carters and Kramers, you can get a fully custom blade for $200. And if you travel to Japan, take pictures and write a glowing blog, you too can get your picture taken with a sword. 

A 'vendor' is probably being 'assured' by Moritaka that all knives have been inspected and there is no problem with any of them. And then he looks at it before it gets mailed out , and sure enuf - looks like a knife - no problem.

Truth is, IMHO only, the blades are probably "OK' for what they are...the rustic offerings from a village bladesmith. Just like Takeda. Who doesn't seem to have the same level of QC issues.

(the above is based on my observing the Moritaka conversation go back and forth for several years, and FWIW - the moritaka familiy have always been very nice in their dealings...but there is no problem)

If you want to see Dave's head explode, watch this...Dave - there are no problems with the Moritaka blade - the family is over 700 years old, so no problems. OK!

Love you Dave!


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## sudsy9977

mikemac......you mean i too can get my picture taken with a sword????????......ryan


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## shankster

Dave,have you noticed this problem on both the Aogomi/blue super carbon steel and the Aogomi/ blue #2 carbon steel? Does the type of steel make any difference? I haven't noticed any decrease in performance with my Moritakas even after many trips to the stones and months of use and abuse at work.They still get scary sharp,IMHO,and keep a great edge.Should I let this "problem" bother me?


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## sudsy9977

shankster said:


> Dave,have you noticed this problem on both the Aogomi/blue super carbon steel and the Aogomi/ blue #2 carbon steel? Does the type of steel make any difference? I haven't noticed any decrease in performance with my Moritakas even after many trips to the stones and months of use and abuse at work.They still get scary sharp,IMHO,and keep a great edge.Should I let this "problem" bother me?


 



here lies the problem if u ask me.....would u be mad if you had a moritaka with an issue and u can't tell?....what if the problem is there and you can't spot it?.....ryan


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## Lefty

Deep...


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## Dave Martell

Yup that's about it Ryan.


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## Dave Martell

shankster, yours might be good if you got them up in Canada, maybe that vendor gives crap and makes sure his knives are good.


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## shankster

But if I can't tell there's a problem,if there is a problem, and my knife still performs the way I expect it to perform should I be pissed? Is the blade going to eventually disintegrate or lose it's cutting ability? Am I lucky I got some of the good ones?


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## shankster

Dave Martell said:


> shankster, yours might be good if you got them up in Canada, maybe that vendor gives crap and makes sure his knives are good.



I hope so.Is it worth it to bring my knives back to my vendor and express my concerns and have him check them out?


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## NO ChoP!

Well, after reading Daves last post, I thoroughly inspected my 300mm yanagi, and could find no serious defects, zero waviness; next time Salty's in, I'm going to ask him to inspect it as well. 

I will say, I own a Takeda as well, and will stick my neck on the line to say that Moritaka AS steel is harder, rusts less, and gets just as sharp; all for half the price. The octagonal handle is nicer and larger than Takedas. 

I too have sharpened my Moritaka about four times from the low stones and another dozen from the mid stones and up, and the edge is still as flat as when new....

I am going to say this; the notion that to own a Moritaka means you're a novice, and don't know any better is crap. Period. I notice every infinite imperfection in every knife I own, from Konosuke to Watanabe to my newest Masamoto (people say the F&F is questionable, I say the handle and choil grind are pure crap! [but I love the steel])....

And please don't be defensive of this, but I would be careful slandering a company, could be a sticky situation....


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## Dave Martell

To be clear here - I'm not talking about wavy edges - I'm talking about low spots where a heavy handed knifemaker ground too deep in specific sections on the bevels of the sides of the blades....also let's include hammer marks at the edge found on forged knives like Moritaka.


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## sudsy9977

I am going to say this; the notion that to own a Moritaka means you're a novice, and don't know any better is crap. Period. I notice every infinite imperfection in every knife I own, from Konosuke to Watanabe to my newest Masamoto (people say the F&F is questionable, I say the handle and choil grind are pure crap! [but I love the steel])....

And please don't be defensive of this, but I would be careful slandering a company, could be a sticky situation....





maybe some knife owners don't know what to inspect, look for, examine........and what's up with the slander comment?.....someone says there is an issue with a product and it's a problem?.....i hate pepsi compared to coke.....what if i said every pepsi i ever had was flat and tatsed like chemicals?.....what is pepsi gonna sue me?.....ryan


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## SpikeC

If one wishes to be offended, one will find their wish.


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## rockbox

NO ChoP! said:


> And please don't be defensive of this, but I would be careful slandering a company, could be a sticky situation....



Slander is writing something that isn't true. People are writing what they have experienced with the Moritaka product.


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## Seb

I just dashed into the kitchen and grabbed my Moritaka and held it up to the light at the window to check if I could see any uneveness along the blade road on either side - I also ran my finger along the bevel to see if I could feel anything... nothing.

Does that mean that mine is ok or am I missing something?

When I order mine from Akiko I stated clearly that I had head about the issues and that I wanted them to take care that my knife came with a completely kosher edge grind and she said 'Roger that' (basically).


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## mhenry

NO ChoP! said:


> Well, after reading Daves last post, I thoroughly inspected my 300mm yanagi, and could find no serious defects, zero waviness; next time Salty's in, I'm going to ask him to inspect it as well.
> 
> I will say, I own a Takeda as well, and will stick my neck on the line to say that Moritaka AS steel is harder, rusts less, and gets just as sharp; all for half the price. The octagonal handle is nicer and larger than Takedas.
> 
> I too have sharpened my Moritaka about four times from the low stones and another dozen from the mid stones and up, and the edge is still as flat as when new....
> 
> I am going to say this; the notion that to own a Moritaka means you're a novice, and don't know any better is crap. Period. I notice every infinite imperfection in every knife I own, from Konosuke to Watanabe to my newest Masamoto (people say the F&F is questionable, I say the handle and choil grind are pure crap! [but I love the steel])....
> 
> And please don't be defensive of this, but I would be careful slandering a company, could be a sticky situation....










+1 I love my Moritaka!!! Even before the mods. it was an awesome knife


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## Amon-Rukh

I'm sure that there are plenty of good Moritakas out there--Dave's even said as much himself. That said, as a consumer I'm glad to know that there are potential problems so I can make the most informed decision possible before making a purchase.


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## ecchef

I've had Dave kick back 2 Moritaka gyutos with varying degrees of the same issue; a 270 AS extra thin & a 210 damascus. And I appreciate him telling me exactly why and explaining what to look for. 
That's a stand-up guy.
That said, I still use them regularly, and because in my experience the steel holds an edge so long that I don't worry about sharpening into the overgrind area. I agree with No ChoP about his comparison with Takeda. Would I buy another Moritaka? Probably not, considering that there are many other options out there that do not come with q/c problems. 

Perhaps the communucation issues with Akiko stem from an innate quality of the Japanese not to be confrontational. It's not that they won't acknowledge a problem, but they will lull you into a false sense of security that they fully understand what you are trying to get across, even if they are not quite sure. I'm not an expert on the culture by any means, but I have experienced this in certain situations. 
However, a merchant that claims to have an excellent rapport with a supplier should be able to back it up. And of course they should be held accountable for the quality of the product or service they sell.

Ok, gotta go...typhoon is coming.


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## NO ChoP!

I really didn't mean to be negative by using the term slander; but Dave isn't a consumer, he's a vendor.... different situation than one choosing coke over pepsi. I was rather suggesting to err on the side of caution, as a consumer has zero to lose. That being said, I believe whole heartedly that Dave has recognized an issue. I think most know that Moritaka is very "rustic", but if it effects its quality, something probably should be said. But, it should be by the owners of these problematic blades who address this to the maker. Trust me, when I have issues, I get results. People need to speak up! If my knife had a default issue, I wouldn't rest until it was properly addressed. 

And maybe, just a little, I don't want to believe, as I really like my Moritaka.......


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## goodchef1

maybe there should be a rant and rave section here. But professionalism is definitely key here. Threads like this normally go into side taking and defending opinions and character.

I don't own a Moritaka, and this will not keep me from possibly purchasing one in the future because I've also read elsewhere, great reviews on this knife, and $150 is not a bad trade-off for what I expect will be flaws.

most people will do their own research and make informed decisions so I would not be too concerned about someones personal experience or opinions about a company, and/or its consumers. 

in general, most people just want a knife that works, and does the job it was intended to do, and some with higher standards will expose flaws.


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## UglyJoe

goodchef1 said:


> maybe there should be a rant and rave section here. But professionalism is definitely key here. Threads like this normally go into side taking and defending opinions and character.
> 
> I don't own a Moritaka, and this will not keep me from possibly purchasing one in the future because I've also read elsewhere, great reviews on this knife, and $150 is not a bad trade-off for what I expect will be flaws.
> 
> most people will do their own research and make informed decisions so I would not be too concerned about someones personal experience or opinions about a company, and/or its consumers.
> 
> in general, most people just want a knife that works, and does the job it was intended to do, and some with higher standards will expose flaws.


 

That's just it, for knives that hit the board this flaw prevents the knife from doing what it's intended to to. If you cut food on the board with this flaw, then you get accordion food. If you use more rock or thrust in your cut you probably won't see as much of this, as the part of the knife that does touch the board can slice through the cut, but the knife still isn't working as it's supposed too. So not so much an issue for a petty or suji, but for a gyuto, nakiri, or cleaver it could be a total failure.

Dave, there is one thing I've never understood about this issue; if I'm understanding you right the knives are overground significantly in some places on the wide bevel, which then leads to that section, when sharpened, to no longer contact the board. This seems like it could be fixed simply by thinning the other parts of the knife. Why isn't this a viable option?


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## unkajonet

NO ChoP! said:


> I really didn't mean to be negative by using the term slander; but Dave isn't a consumer, he's a vendor.... different situation than one choosing coke over pepsi. I was rather suggesting to err on the side of caution, as a consumer has zero to lose. That being said, I believe whole heartedly that Dave has recognized an issue. I think most know that Moritaka is very "rustic", but if it effects its quality, something probably should be said. But, it should be by the owners of these problematic blades who address this to the maker. Trust me, when I have issues, I get results. People need to speak up! If my knife had a default issue, I wouldn't rest until it was properly addressed.
> 
> And maybe, just a little, I don't want to believe, as I really like my Moritaka.......


 
Dave is a vendor, but until very recently, a vendor that didn't sell knives. He serviced them. That was his niche. If I told my mechanic I was thinking of buying a Yugo, and he told me that Yugos have problems, he's not trying to sell me anything. He's trying to save me potential (probable) headaches down the line, based on his experience of him working on way more Yugos than I will ever see. If I still decide to buy one, well, that's on me. But at least the mechanic was looking out for my interests.


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## jheis

rockbox said:


> Slander is writing something that isn't true. People are writing what they have experienced with the Moritaka product.


 
No, actually it would be libel.

Whether a defamatory statement is libel or slander depends on the medium in which it is made (published). The "shorthand" difference is that libel is written and slander is spoken.

Sorry, I'm a lawyer.... :cool2:

James


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## Dave Martell

UglyJoe said:


> Dave, there is one thing I've never understood about this issue; if I'm understanding you right the knives are overground significantly in some places on the wide bevel, which then leads to that section, when sharpened, to no longer contact the board. This seems like it could be fixed simply by thinning the other parts of the knife. Why isn't this a viable option?




Theoretically this should be something that can be done, I'm just not that skilled to pull it off and it's likely the same is true for the maker that created the problem in the first place.


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## sudsy9977

you would have to grind everywhere except that very specific spot....seems like too tall of an order if u ask me.....ryan


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## Lefty

Not to mention the majority of Moritaka knives are clad, so thinning is only doable to a point.


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## rockbox

sudsy9977 said:


> you would have to grind everywhere except that very specific spot....seems like too tall of an order if u ask me.....ryan



I just went through this with the knife I made. I couldn't just let the slight overgrind go. I had to regrind the whole knife. It took me about an hour behind the grinder plus another hour refinishing the knife. The kurouchi finish would be gone. For the amount of work that goes into it, you could buy another knife. The fact that moritakas are so thin in the first place, makes it more difficult. There isn't much metal to play with and you would end up with a razor blade attached to some iron.


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## Jameson

Dave Martell said:


> I wish this didn't bother me so much and I didn't feel the need to make these posts, I'm just so sick of having to tell another person that I can't fix their new knife. Oh and to make matters worse I won't add to their problems so I won't charge to return ship it back to them. Imagine how much money I've lost in postal fees alone, if I told you how much I've lost in being burnt by working on these knives you'd shudder. I'm just tired of this whole thing with them.



Oh your gonna charge me, and I am gonna pay! You have done nothing wrong Dave, and your business spent time and resources (knowledge) analyzing my piece, you need to be compensated for this, at least for the shipping.... I appreciate your honesty in fact. Wish I needed your services more to be honest, but my edges come out pretty darn good (except for this knife obviously). 

Thanks for at least venting on behalf... I am gonna try and send it back to the maker and at least get a replacement, or discount on a new knife, as well as giving a serious look to NEVER purchasing another knife at CKTG...

Appreciate the time Dave.

JC


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## Jameson

I also want to mention that my problems occurred when the initial edge (not very sharp) dulled to the point where I could see light on the edge, I took it to the stones and after 15-20 minutes of progression, it had little chips everywhere, it will slice paper, but you can feel the blade catch, almost like nicks. Thinking it was just too hard for me to sharpen (previously 62hrc AS steel was my highest) I decided to send it off to a pro, and this thread is the result...

JC


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## rockbox

What I don't get is why Mark pushes this brand so hard. especially when he dropped Hiromoto for F&F issues. Does he have an exclusive agreement with them?


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## steeley

The forum word of the day is YUGO .
Check your score cards.



[/IMG]


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## Cookin808

Is this problem being found in all the Moritakas (both damascus and kurouchi)or just one of their lines? Have people that have this problem attempted to return the knives to CKTG and been unsuccessful in getting either a replacement or monies back? I have purchased a bunch of stuff from them recently and found that their service and response time seems to be up to par. It just seems very unusual that they would blow off a problem of this magnitude if it is reoccuring at the rate in which forum members are stating. Just curious and wanting to get the full story as I was thinking about adding a few of these knives to the collection.


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## Cnimativ

Reading through all six pages I still dont really understand the problem. Anyone care to delight me?


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## bieniek

If you look at the photo of Moritakas profile. You see the secondary bevel - the one that meets the Kurouchi and goes down until the, lets make it simple, edge.
The problem is, that in the secondary bevel some aggresive sharpener pressed to hard, and only at one point on the blade [or maybe pressed it down to one side of the wheel?] which resulted in low spot not in the cutting edge itself, but in the metal that is backing it up. 
As result after first sharpening youre ending up with hole in cutting edge, in the spot where the backup metal is thinner on the sides. Everytime you sharpen, hole gets bigger. 

And Daves concern, or one of them, is that the tougher metal part is not going all the way up to the spine, so in the intention to fix it you could literally wear the hagane down and you will end up with soft iron Gyuto.
[hope Im right and that helps]
The photo comes form paulsfinest. I could swear i can see a bump near heel?


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## rockbox

bieniek said:


> If you look at the photo of Moritakas profile. You see the secondary bevel - the one that meets the Kurouchi and goes down until the, lets make it simple, edge.
> The problem is, that in the secondary bevel some aggresive sharpener pressed to hard, and only at one point on the blade [or maybe pressed it down to one side of the wheel?] which resulted in low spot not in the cutting edge itself, but in the metal that is backing it up.
> As result after first sharpening youre ending up with hole in cutting edge, in the spot where the backup metal is thinner on the sides. Everytime you sharpen, hole gets bigger.
> 
> And Daves concern, or one of them, is that the tougher metal part is not going all the way up to the spine, so in the intention to fix it you could literally wear the hagane down and you will end up with soft iron Gyuto.
> [hope Im right and that helps]
> The photo comes form paulsfinest. I could swear i can see a bump near heel?



The issue is bigger than that. Holes in the edge are easy to fix. The bevel is actually wavy because of the overgrind. To fix the issue, the bevel/knife has to be ground down to the lowest point .


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## bieniek

isnt that what i written? sorry if its unclear


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## dough

yea this is a sad issue and its gone on too long.

i like guys like no chop are proud of a nice knife they own but ya know what sucks is when a friend brings over a moritaka and ya gotta turn to him and say i cant fix this or i cant really help.(i sharpen a lot of friend and family members knives whether they like or not sometimes because i like to not for money... when they offer to pay i laugh and say come to the restaurant; pay me to cook because im a cook... sharpening my knives is more then a hobby but sharpening yours is only a hobby) sure i can make it sharp but the bevel/edge is barely better. sure they are cheap considering the steel used gets sharp but why even sharpen them if you plan to muck up the whole thing... look at aritsugu as a clear example... sometimes its better to get an unsharpened knife in great steel then it is to get a knife with a bevel that takes unbelievably more time to fix if your even good enough to do it. dave sharpens a loooot of knives and is telling us that this problem isnt worth his time to fix... this to me is the most telling picture as dave is proud of his work and wont work on a knife he doesnt plan to be proud of... making it better is not enough because its still flawed and you didnt pay him to leave your knife flawed.

either way i dont like the whole context of moritakas work... and i own a good one btw. imo friends dont let friends buy moritaka.


----------



## shankster

dough: What is it about "the whole context of moritakas work" that you don't like?


----------



## Seb

I had heard/read all about the issues and I went and bought one anyway direct from Moritaka and gave the odds that there was a 50/50 chance of a FUBAR blade. Far as I can tell, it's fine/all good.


----------



## shankster

Luck of the draw I guess.But like I stated on another post,that's the risk you take when you're buying anything manufactured,knife,car, tv whatever.It's the customer service that makes the difference.


----------



## Booink

Some may accept or even like the lottery, but I'm one of those who insist on a zero dead pixel guarantee, so I'd never gamble on getting lucky with a knife. Thaks for the warning.


----------



## shankster

"Nothing ventured,nothing gained"


----------



## Seb

Booink said:


> Some may accept or even like the lottery, but I'm one of those who insist on a zero dead pixel guarantee, so I'd never gamble on getting lucky with a knife. Thaks for the warning.


 
It's the same with Masamoto's CT and HC series and quite a few other household names, Aritsugu comes to mind.


----------



## Mattias504

The bottom line is that if you want to get a KU knife in that style, you should go with Takeda. I've never heard of these kind of issues with Takeda's knives.


----------



## shankster

Mattias504 said:


> The bottom line is that if you want to get a KU knife in that style, you should go with Takeda. I've never heard of these kind of issues with Takeda's knives.



At almost double the price,plus I've heard of other QA issues with Takeda.


----------



## Seb

And then there's Yamawaku which is amazing for the price (under $100).


----------



## dough

yea sorry for delayed response but these knives pretend to be a bargain for a quality knife even claiming to be custom in that you can attempt to get the design and grind you want for a.... bargain price. it turns out yes they will make that shape but that work cant support the shape.
with that said sometimes it can. my knife takes a great edge and its very easy to sharpen. i like the steel.
maybe my point is im not a gambler but in general most cooks i know think 150 aint cheap and for that money a failure in a knife represents more then oh well ill learn from my mistake... its more f this... this money could have been blah blah blah and now i gotta spend blah to fix it at best or just spend that much or more again.
so to me the context is that these knives being a bargain when they are a gamble.


----------



## Seb

You're not stuck with the knife because both Moritaka Hamono and CKTG accept returns.


----------



## dough

i never bought one from cktg but moritaka hasnt been the nicest to me. perhaps thats me. i wasnt looking to send it back just curious what was up.

in the end admittedly im just a fool.


----------



## Seb

That's funny, Akiko was perfectly nice about it when I said that I had heard on the forums about the grind issues and I wanted them to be extra careful when they did the grind on mine.


----------



## Cnimativ

shankster said:


> At almost double the price,plus I've heard of other QA issues with Takeda.


 
For example? IMO its not responsible to make claims w/o supporting cases. But its just me.

At least people complaining about Moritaka in this thread have supporting evidences.


----------



## shankster

Cnimativ said:


> For example? IMO its not responsible to make claims w/o supporting cases. But its just me.
> 
> At least people complaining about Moritaka in this thread have supporting evidences.



I've read about complaints of too much/messy epoxy work on the collar more than once(sorry no names or addresses to back up my evidence),does that make Takeda a bad knife? Certainly not,but it goes to show that even a highly regarded blade-smith can have some faults with some of his products

And from what I can read,most of the people complaining or commenting negatively on this thread about Moritaka don't own,have never owned or even seen the "problem" first hand. Just jumping on the "anti-Moritaka" bandwagon.


----------



## WildBoar

I dunno -- sloppy epoxy work isn't the same thing as a screwed up cutting edge. The epoxy is not a performance issue. The meat of this thread seems to be about flaws that affect the ability of the knife to cut properly over time (as sharpening opens the holes). So it's about a maker who delivers a product that does not always perform the intended function the way it should.


----------



## shankster

WildBoar said:


> I dunno -- sloppy epoxy work isn't the same thing as a screwed up cutting edge. The epoxy is not a performance issue. The meat of this thread seems to be about flaws that affect the ability of the knife to cut properly over time (as sharpening opens the holes). So it's about a maker who delivers a product that does not always perform the intended function the way it should.[/QUOTE
> 
> I never said it was the same thing,I was using it as an example of how even the most beloved craftsmen can produce less than perfect examples of their work.I am in no way condoning the "overgrind" issue Dave found on some of the Moritakas he's worked on,especially if it affects performance of the knife.I'd be pissed if my knife had that problem,just like I'd be pissed if I paid $300+ for a Takeda with sloppy epoxy work.
> 
> Peter


----------



## NO ChoP!

I think people have only said Takedas excess epoxy is ugly.... I don't know if I'd call it a flaw. One thing I always thought was odd from Takeda was the fact that from knife to knife, the profile/ geometry can be completely different. My buddy owns a 240mm gyuto, same as me. Mine is thinner and his blade tip is noticeably lower???????


----------



## Cadillac J

NO ChoP! said:


> I think people have only said Takedas excess epoxy is ugly.... I don't know if I'd call it a flaw


 

This is the only 'complaint' I've really ever heard about Takeda.

But as long as you don't want an immediate re-handle, I actually am cool with the epoxy on Takeda because it completely seals off any tiny gaps from moisture.


----------



## tweyland

For what it's worth, I have an AS gyuto from Moritaka, and I had a great experience in ordering it a few years ago. I requested some specific details about setting the handle and the balance point, which they accomodated very nicely. There was a slight low spot on the bevel grind near the heel, which has disappeared as I've thinned the whole knife. There's also a tendency for the knife to curve to one side, and I just adjust it the other way. I don't doubt that some people have had some issues, but for me I feel I got a fair deal - a semi-custom AS knife which I have now tweaked and tuned to my liking.

~Tad


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## SpikeC

There is nothing sloppy about the epoxy on the handle of the Takeda. It is very tidy and smooth. It is merely the way that he insures that nothing gets into the handle. As a truely hand made article some variation from piece to piece is inevitable, the blanks are not stamped out. And the performance of the knife is above reproach.
So how does a comparison to Takeda excuse the issue of over-grinding?


----------



## shankster

SpikeC said:


> There is nothing sloppy about the epoxy on the handle of the Takeda. It is very tidy and smooth. It is merely the way that he insures that nothing gets into the handle. As a truely hand made article some variation from piece to piece is inevitable, the blanks are not stamped out. And the performance of the knife is above reproach.
> So how does a comparison to Takeda excuse the issue of over-grinding?



"Sloppy/messy" were words used by others in some the of reviews I have read on Takedas knives,not mine. Sorry if I have offended any Takeda owners,that was not my intention.I guess if you weren't expecting that kind of epoxy work on your knife,you might think it was a "flaw". If that's the way Takeda makes his knives and there's a reason for it,then no it's not sloppy or messy,but not everyone is going to like it.


----------



## heirkb

Sorry to bring this thread back, but I have a question that I can't seem to figure out myself. Maybe Dave can help me answer it. How is the problem with these Moritakas any different from the high and low spots people seem to find on a lot of single beveled knives? From what I understand based on what I've read, people fix those issues, right? I know people have already said why they don't think you can fix this issue, so I'm more looking for how this issue (i.e. the Moritaka overgrind) is different from the high and low spots on yanagis, which is an issue that seems to be fairly common and commonly repaired.


----------



## tk59

On western style knives overgrinds on the face of the knife manifest themselves in either dents or weak spots in your edge that crumble or deform readily. On traditional Japanese knives, a low spot on the secondary bevel will just grind out with normal sharpening. A lot of people choose to homogenize the blade road but it really doesn't affect the edge in the same way.


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## Lefty

Another way to look at it would be, on a yanagi, the high and low spots are more accurately a proper and an improper (fat) spot. Grinding down the fat spot isn't necessary, as long as the edge is true. It's more to improve the performance, and make everything uniform.
From what i'm getting from the info we've read here, and elsewhere, on a double beveled knife (as is the case with said Moritakas) the improper grind is more of a hole waiting to show itself, once the support underneath it has been sharpened away. So, there's a proper thickness/grind (thicker) and an improper grind (thinner). You can't really fix the problem by creating uniformity (thinning), because in the process the entire edge would fail.
Hope that clears it up.


----------



## mikemac

heirkb said:


> ....how this issue (i.e. the Moritaka overgrind) is different from the high and low spots on yanagis, which is an issue that seems to be fairly common and commonly repaired.


 
As I understand these two _different issues, the hi and lo spots on the 'Moritaka' type of overgrind impact the cutting edge, and can be seen by placing the edge on a cutting board and observing hi spots with light coming thru where the edge is not contacting the cutting board. On a yanagi, the hi & lo spots are on the Blade path, from the Shinogi line to the edge bevel (or to the edge?), and this would seen by laying the knife on its flat side and looking 'down' the balde path (or road)._


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## Dave Martell

Actually Mike, the Moritaka issue is also (and often only initially) seen on the side of the knife (blade road) similar to a yanagi.


@heirkb, The issue with yanagiba is depressions in the blade road that seem to never effect the cutting edge because they are up high enough from the edge that when the blade road if flattened the problem is corrected, this happens long before the cutting edge is worked into these low areas. On Moritakas, the blade road/bevel is worn right down into the cutting edge making the hole appear. It's a similar problem yet very different simply because of the location of the depression is different on each knife. Now if we're talking usuba then we could say many cheap ones have Moritaka bevels because they do.....I hate cheap usubas.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Lefty said:


> You can't really fix the problem by creating uniformity (thinning), because in the process the entire edge would fail.
> Hope that clears it up.



Ouch! Yah, that would be cause for huge disappointment. I really wish we had an accurate number as to how many knives are affected; 1 in 10; 9 in 10???? 

Its obviously been pointed out to them by now, I wonder if they are currently paying closer attention....

Could it have been certain batches only? Others being fine????


----------



## Dave Martell

I would say, conservatively, that 7 out of 10 that I see are screwed up.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Even if you said 1 in 10, that would be cause for alarm..... I will have to rethink my planned future kiritsuke purchase... maybe a Takeda is in order instead; unless anyone knows of another maker doing double beveled kiritsuke shaped gyutos? #lefty issues#


----------



## rockbox

Dave Martell said:


> I would say, conservatively, that 7 out of 10 that I see are screwed up.



I bet you probably see a disproportionate number of bad ones because people send them to you when they can fix it themselves.

For those of you who still don't understand the issue, I drew this very crude illustration to highlight the problem.







Even if you grind a away at the blade, the hole still there and there is nothing to reinforce the edge.


----------



## Dave Martell

Actually most people are shocked to hear that their knife has a problem.


----------



## UglyJoe

I will go out on a limb and say that they have a different polisher for their kurouchi lines and their damascus lines. If I recall correctly, Dave said he's never seen this issue with the Damascus line - though that could be because he hasn't seen nearly as many of the damascus knives from Moritaka. However, it wouldn't surprise me if they are using "cheap" help on the kurouchi line - a young apprentice or someone who doesn't really have experience in sharpening. Also they could be using a wheel that is very unevenly ground for the kurouchi line. To sell the knives at the pricepoint they are selling them at they have to cut corners somewhere. If they have an uneven grinding wheel all it would take is a few seconds of too much pressure on the wheel to cause this issue, and an inexperienced or poor sharpener probably never even picks up on the problem.


----------



## Cookin808

Any chances of getting a high res picture of the problem up so we can see what this defective overgrind looks like. Is it as exaggerated as the illustration shows or something that can be caught only with the trained eye?


----------



## rockbox

Cookin808 said:


> Any chances of getting a high res picture of the problem up so we can see what this defective overgrind looks like. Is it as exaggerated as the illustration shows or something that can be caught only with the trained eye?



The picture is somewhat exaggerated because the overgrind is uniform where on most knives it is not. Its easiest to see by looking at the bevel. If it is wavy with parts missing, then you have a problem. From a performance standpoint, you can detect it by testing each segment of the edge. If there is a portion that doesn't get sharp, then that may be your issue.


----------



## stereo.pete

Rockbox, thank you for the illustration as I now finally understand what you guys have been talking about. Value added!


----------



## mikemac

NO ChoP! said:


> ...anyone knows of another maker doing double beveled kiritsuke shaped gyutos? #lefty issues#



Nenox, but probably not the answer you wanted....
http://korin.com/Wa-Kiritsuke_2?sc=20&category=52057

Did Watanabe make a special run of them for a group buy? (maybe 2 years ago?)


----------



## bieniek

funny You mention that. 
I just did one today and I fell in Love with it. 
Its not the sharpest knife you can get, definitely not the thinnest either. 
But its taking crazy edge easily, the metal is pleasant to work with, the shape feels great, handle is perfectly thick for my liking, and even when you hold it pinch grip you feel the blade-heaviness, like its whispering to you to just cut something.... ahhh great knife


----------



## jaybett

mikemac said:


> Nenox, but probably not the answer you wanted....
> http://korin.com/Wa-Kiritsuke_2?sc=20&category=52057
> 
> Did Watanabe make a special run of them for a group buy? (maybe 2 years ago?)



There was a buzz on ITK and FF about Kiritsukes a few years ago. The experienced users kept cautioning people that it was a knife that took time to learn. I don't recall a Watanabe group buy. Mark at CKTG, went on a Kiritsuke spree, where he was ordering them from every maker. 

Remember, I think his name was Charlie, who I believe went by Vermont Cook, on ITK. He'd order top end knives and quickly turn around and sell them at deep discounts. He purchased a Nenox kirituke liked it so much, that he ordered a custom one from Konosuke. Before the order was completed he changed his mind, and no longer wanted it. He sold a it, at a deep discount. The kiritsuke was so new that Konosuke shipped it directly to the new buyer. 

NO ChoP! If your concerned about the Moritaka problem. Have Mark ship it to Dave. If there is a problem, return the knife to Mark. You may be out shipping and what ever Dave charges, but at least you avoided the problem. 

By the way, I have a Moritaka kiritsuke. I prefer flat edges and wanted something with an aggressive tip. Since it was going to be used on the tougher jobs in the kitchen, the Moritaka problem wasn't an issue for me. The kiritsuke has been a nice compliment to my cleavers. 

While there is a certain charm to a Takeda knife with the kirouchi finish, the price versus the competitors is getting out line. A cleaver for $550 or a honesuki for $299. 

Jay


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

jaybett said:


> There was a buzz on ITK and FF about Kiritsukes a few years ago. The experienced users kept cautioning people that it was a knife that took time to learn. I don't recall a Watanabe group buy. Mark at CKTG, went on a Kiritsuke spree, where he was ordering them from every maker.
> 
> Remember, I think his name was Charlie, who I believe went by Vermont Cook, on ITK. He'd order top end knives and quickly turn around and sell them at deep discounts. He purchased a Nenox kirituke liked it so much, that he ordered a custom one from Konosuke. Before the order was completed he changed his mind, and no longer wanted it. He sold a it, at a deep discount. The kiritsuke was so new that Konosuke shipped it directly to the new buyer.
> 
> NO ChoP! If your concerned about the Moritaka problem. Have Mark ship it to Dave. If there is a problem, return the knife to Mark. You may be out shipping and what ever Dave charges, but at least you avoided the problem.
> 
> By the way, I have a Moritaka kiritsuke. I prefer flat edges and wanted something with an aggressive tip. Since it was going to be used on the tougher jobs in the kitchen, the Moritaka problem wasn't an issue for me. The kiritsuke has been a nice compliment to my cleavers.
> 
> While there is a certain charm to a Takeda knife with the kirouchi finish, the price versus the competitors is getting out line. A cleaver for $550 or a honesuki for $299.
> 
> Jay


 


It probably just slipped Jay's mind, but Watanabe made a run of kiritsuke shaped gyutos about two years ago for a group buy that Marko initiated. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/855049/

Mark Richmond got two of them and had Marko make handles and sayas for them. The last one Mark had sold in November, 2010, if I'm not mistaken.

I believe I will be getting the last one that Marko has for sale, just waiting for the saya to be completed. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?431-Work-in-Progess&p=18772&viewfull=1#post18772

Rick


----------



## mhenry

Have you guys seen the new considerably higher prices on Moritaka at CKTG


----------



## Seb

Probably because of the USD falling against the Yen.


----------



## Dave Martell

Maybe these are special no holes versions?


----------



## heirkb

Dave Martell said:


> @heirkb, The issue with yanagiba is depressions in the blade road that seem to never effect the cutting edge because they are up high enough from the edge that when the blade road if flattened the problem is corrected, this happens long before the cutting edge is worked into these low areas. On Moritakas, the blade road/bevel is worn right down into the cutting edge making the hole appear. It's a similar problem yet very different simply because of the location of the depression is different on each knife. Now if we're talking usuba then we could say many cheap ones have Moritaka bevels because they do.....I hate cheap usubas.



Thanks, Dave. I'm not good at visualizing these types of things, but I thought about this a few times, and it makes perfect sense. A yanagi with a low spot ground down close to the edge would have the same issue as a Moritaka, right?


----------



## Dave Martell

Yup, exactly.


----------



## NO ChoP!

jaybett said:


> While there is a certain charm to a Takeda knife with the kirouchi finish, the price versus the competitors is getting out line. A cleaver for $550 or a honesuki for $299.
> 
> Jay


 
My thought exactly....I was blown away when I saw $299 for the long awaited honesuki. I can get the 240 kiritsuke for the same?????? WT?? Although, I like Takeda, it is rather utilitarian, and for $550 for a cleaver, I am sure you could find something much more impressive, no?


I did thoroughly inspect my Moritaka 300mm yanagi, and swear that on the right side bevel, there is slightly more material than the left; noticeable about two inches down from the tip. The left side seems straight and flat, with no visible "hole", but, the grind is slightly more aggressive. But, this is only evident with a magnifying glass, and me scrutinizing its every last detail for a half hour. I've owned it for a year, and never thought anything less than great of it prior.....


----------



## Lefty

Then why start now? It likely is great, like you thought all along!


----------



## olpappy

While certainly not desirable, I have to point out that overgrinds are not as rare as one might think, and they are certainly not confined to Moritaka. I have seen them on other knives as well, it is inevitable that with a product which is being ground by hand on power equipment that sometimes a craftsman will screw up and overgrind. Undesirable, but part of the reality of producing large numbers of knives. Quality control of the maker should catch the worst examples, however it is also duty of the consumer to inspect a new purchase to see that it meets their expectations. A knife blade road will never be completely perfect as long as it has been ground by human hands.

In most cases the flaws are so small that they are difficult to notice and do not affect performance. In cases where overgrinding is more noticeable, basically what you will have is a Granton or cullen that goes to the edge. Not what you would want, but the knife will still cut. Sometimes you just have to live with flaws.

I challenge anyone to take a bar of steel and try grinding it into a knife blade. You will quickly find out how difficult it is. Who knows what kind of crappy grinders they have in Japan, maybe we should chip in and send Moritaka a KMG or something. Did anyone who visited Moritaka happen to notice the equipment they were using for grinding??

BTW I have a lot of Moritakas and haven't had problems so far.


----------



## dreamsignals

my first japanese knife ever was a moritaka 240mm gyuto ordered directly through akiko around november 2009, no special requests. i went for it after a few weeks reading on KF ITK since it was so much cheaper than the 'equivalent' takeda (the moritaka was $225). it wasn't until i ordered the fact it wasn't until the knife was shipped that i found the more grave threads on the infamous holes. since i was a completely inexperienced i sent the knife for Dave to 'analyze' and sharpen, and dave told me it was a dud and sent it back to me. i emailed akiko immediately and explained what was going on, basically paraphrasing what Dave had told me. she apologized copiously and immediately offered a refund, including costs of shipping back to japan.

when i got the knife back i looked for the defect and convinced myself that it was there, but would not have bet my life on it. having no experience, i felt comfortable relying on Dave's professional opinion (he actually shipped the knife back to me on his own money). around the same time, i got talking to Mark from CKTG and he was just starting to sell the takeda kiritsuke shaped gyuto so i jumped on that and was a happy camper.

in the end, i still wish that it had worked out with the moritaka. akiko is just that nice.

now that i've told my story, let me try to make this a bit more informative. here is akiko's answers to me pointing out the grind issues. you'll notice the language barrier played a role and perhaps i was not great in expressing the issues:



> Dear Thiago,
> 
> Thank you very much for your many support.
> 
> I've recieved the gyuto, today.
> I showed it to our blacksmith immediately.
> 
> ''1) The tip seems to be hanging lower than the rest of the edge, so
> that a portion of the front edge does not come in contact with the
> board when laid perpendicular to it;
> 
> 2) The heel of the knife also hand a little lower than the rest of the
> edge, leaving again a small gap between the edge and the board towards
> the last half inch of the edge near the heel;''
> 
> As to 1) and 2), our gyuto has a belly the best suited for drawing and
> cutting.
> Therefore there're some gap on the tip and heel originally.
> Japanese get used to do drawing and cuting.
> But, Soba-kiri (knife) has a dead flat edge because it's used while
> pressing and cutting.
> If a customer ask us to make a straight edged knife, we'll make it as a
> customer wants.
> Excluding it, we make our original shaped knives.
> 
> ''3) The edge seems to be somewhat 'wavy' when looked at with the knife
> in vertical position, holding the tip towards your face, with "curves"
> along the side of the edge. I fear that once the knife is sharpened,
> this "wavy" may cause some areas to wear differently than other,
> creating gaps between the edge and the board when cutting;''
> 
> As to 3), after it's hardened (quenched), it turns somewhat wavy. Therefore
> we remove distortions with a special hammer after ''Tempering'' process.
> We make it flat (level off) as far as there is no problem within the
> practical use.
> If we make a sword, we must make it dead flat while we put the edge on the
> glass board and check it.
> 
> In your knife case, we don't consider it a defect. We admit it has wavy
> part. But it is leveled off enough for the practical use.
> Of course, it can be fixed by hand.
> It isn't special that hand-made (forged) kitchen knives have somewhat wavy
> parts because it's hand-made, not machine-made.
> We've experienced to sharpen other maker's knives have similar conditions.
> Even if it has much wavier blade, we sharpen and straighten it with a
> whetstone while checking and adjusting the conditions of the blade.
> You may well say ''I fear that once the knife is sharpened, this "wavy" may
> cause some areas to wear differently than other, creating gaps between the
> edge and the board when cutting''.
> But we're sorry but we have to hand-made our knives considering necessity of
> work.
> If we pursue to make perfect knives, we have to spend much more time to
> check blades. But, as a result, we can't sell our knives at the present
> prices.
> Our goal is, our knives are used by as many customers as possible. We'd like
> to sell our knives with cheaper price compared with other makers.
> 
> We would appreciate it if you could understand our thoughts.


----------



## Cnimativ

olpappy said:


> While certainly not desirable, I have to point out that overgrinds are not as rare as one might think, and they are certainly not confined to Moritaka. I have seen them on other knives as well, it is inevitable that with a product which is being ground by hand on power equipment that sometimes a craftsman will screw up and overgrind. Undesirable, but part of the reality of producing large numbers of knives. Quality control of the maker should catch the worst examples, however it is also duty of the consumer to inspect a new purchase to see that it meets their expectations. A knife blade road will never be completely perfect as long as it has been ground by human hands.
> 
> In most cases the flaws are so small that they are difficult to notice and do not affect performance. In cases where overgrinding is more noticeable, basically what you will have is a Granton or cullen that goes to the edge. Not what you would want, but the knife will still cut. Sometimes you just have to live with flaws.
> 
> I challenge anyone to take a bar of steel and try grinding it into a knife blade. You will quickly find out how difficult it is. Who knows what kind of crappy grinders they have in Japan, maybe we should chip in and send Moritaka a KMG or something. Did anyone who visited Moritaka happen to notice the equipment they were using for grinding??
> 
> BTW I have a lot of Moritakas and haven't had problems so far.


 
what's a standard process to detect overgrind, especially for rustic kurouchi finishes?


----------



## olpappy

Cnimativ said:


> what's a standard process to detect overgrind, especially for rustic kurouchi finishes?


 
Dave is the expert, so let's see what he says.

AFAIK its just close inspection of the blade road, plus what shows up when you sharpen the blade repeatedly.

Here is a pic of a Granton slicer with cullens going all the way into the edge, alternating on both sides. You can see in the photo that where the cullen is ground the edge becomes very thin. At the very edge you can see a tiny dip in the edge where the cullen on the opposite side is. It kind of imparts a slight 'sawtooth' effect where the irregularities in the edge are. In some ways a bit like a serrated edge.






However, I'm still not clear on what Dave describes as a hole in the edge which gets bigger as you sharpen. If he is referring to the phenomenon pictured above, it seems to me that the size of the edge defect is limited by the depth of the overgrind, it would not keep getting bigger and bigger unless the overgrind itself gets bigger and bigger.

Basically to me it is the same as using a knife which has a slight chip or ding in the edge, if it is very small you won't notice any difference in cutting, but if it's bigger you might find it annoying. The only difference is that with an overgrind like this, you cannot remove it by sharpening. That is why Dave has to tell his customers that he cannot get rid of it, it's just an area of metal that has been removed, and there is no way to put it back once it is gone.

I have a couple of used knives I got with pre-existing chip/ding in the edge, it's obviously not something I want, but they work OK and it's not much of an issue for me when cutting food. I just try to sharpen them as best as possible, and they work just fine.


----------



## Dave Martell

Cnimativ said:


> what's a standard process to detect overgrind, especially for rustic kurouchi finishes?




You want to look at the bevel grinds right above the cutting edge. I use a small (2-3" length) straight edge engineer's square laid along the length. I inspect for light under the straight edge when looking down from the spine. You have to inspect very close to the cutting edge and also just above (maybe 1-2mm) the edge. Check both sides carefully.


----------



## rockbox

How do you even sharpen that thing? A flat stone would never even touch the edge. You would have to sharpen it like a serrated knife.


----------



## Booink

rockbox said:


> How do you even sharpen that thing? A flat stone would never even touch the edge. You would have to sharpen it like a serrated knife.


 
Yeah, that's what I discovered today while "fixing" a $30 knive with a horrible grind... While working on the edge, a part of it just stayed narrow and it looked like a part on the knife isn't touching the stone. I rechecked the blade against a flat aluminium plate and the sun. Yup, the light leakage from the hole makes it kinda obvious that this knife needs more fixing...

Luckily it isn't overground too high, only a mm or two, and the edge itself had a hole of a cm wide and a hair in height, so I could just push it against a stone with an extra high angle until the whole edge touches the stone again. But if it was any worse, I'd only make the hole larger instead of smaller. Ah well, I knew there's a catch with those super cheap Eden branded vg10 knives


----------



## Dave Martell

Booink said:


> Yeah, that's what I discovered today while "fixing" a $30 knive with a horrible grind... While working on the edge, a part of it just stayed narrow and it looked like a part on the knife isn't touching the stone. I rechecked the blade against a flat aluminium plate and the sun. Yup, the light leakage from the hole makes it kinda obvious that this knife needs more fixing...
> 
> Luckily it isn't overground too high, only a mm or two, and the edge itself had a hole of a cm wide and a hair in height, so I could just push it against a stone with an extra high angle until the whole edge touches the stone again. But if it was any worse, I'd only make the hole larger instead of smaller. Ah well, I knew there's a catch with those super cheap Eden branded vg10 knives




Sounds in better shape than a $150 Moritaka


----------



## mateo

Speaking of this... I just discovered that my Shun steak knives are mis-ground like this as well >.<


----------



## Dave Martell

mateo said:


> Speaking of this... I just discovered that my Shun steak knives are mis-ground like this as well >.<


 

I've seen a lot of Shuns with low hanging heals but in all cases that I recall I was able to fix this by re-profiling during sharpening. So in the case of Shuns the issue doesn't appear to be overgrinds from the side of the blades although yours could certainly be that way, all I can state is for what I've what I've seen.


----------



## watercrawl

Huh...wow...lots of information here. 

Not sure I can add much, but:

I've owned 3 Moritaka knives...all ordered direct from the maker. At least one of them had the issue being discussed here today. I've also seen Nenox knives with the issue....seen Takeda knives with the issue, seen $1,500 custom made knives with the issue, seen more than a few of Carter's with the issue (all from his SFGZ series mind you), seen my fair share of knives sharpened by people that had the issue caused by their sharpening (push too hard in one spot near the edge of the stone for too long and see what happens), etc. Point is, this is not an issue confined to Moritaka. That's it's disproportionate in the Moritaka's is a shame and something to be concerned about for sure. 

Also, Takeda, the knives everyone is saying are the option to the Moritaka's...but are twice the price...well, there was a stint there where people wouldn't buy them either....they were avoided like the plaque. Bent blades, edges that you could move around with your finger (that was my knife), wavy edges, warped blades, highly inconsistent KU finish.


----------



## mateo

Here's the best photo I can muster at the moment  It's the steak knife against a straight edge, with the knife spine being the "highest" point in the photo (i.e. you can't really see it because it's out of focus) and the light coming through is because of the overgrind. 







https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/90BOR8Cn3AekaMBd72e15rEa17M-0Btm2EuMrClj0_E?feat=directlink


----------



## Eamon Burke

As for creating one by hand, I know a guy who pushes REALLY hard on a 320 grit stone and leaves his knife like that. It's not sharp, it's just a suisin, so it cuts when it's dull. Plus he puts the whole flat of the blade on the stone, so it's paper thin and as tall as a suji by now.

Anyways, it's wavy as all getout, but just like Akiko said, he does a kind of drag along the board, so he doesn't really care.

That answer saddens me. Overgrinds happen, and they are hard enough to detect that you can't catch them all if you are putting out high volume, but to accept an uneven HT, overgrinds, etc as just "part of being handmade" is silly to me. I doubt Iizuka san would agree with him.


----------



## Dave Martell

Dave Martell said:


> I wonder how long will this go on - how many more people I'll have to disappoint with the news that their knife is no good? How long will these knives continue to be sold here?
> 
> As you might be able to guess I just got another bad one in where I had to tell another customer that I can't work on his knife. Another $150 down the crapper for the customer.....another $150 in the bank for the vendor.





Still wondering how long this will go on for......got two more here.....two more losses for customers and two more profits for the seller & maker. I'm so friggin sick of this sh*t!


----------



## Dave Martell

Here's the one of the two that will photograph some of the issues....now try to dispute this....


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## Dave Martell

IMO, any e-tailer selling this crap either A) knows NOTHING about kitchen knives or B) is an outright swindler


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## Dave Martell

As for the maker - they just suck ass


----------



## Mike Davis

Dave, tell us how you really feel. Sorry to see you guys are having such an issue with these....


----------



## Crothcipt

so going into a new business you can buy all the junked ones, melt them down and make a new one.:clown:


----------



## Dave Martell

Crothcipt said:


> so going into a new business you can buy all the junked ones, melt them down and make a new one.:clown:




I could....one customer (just today) (not the above knife owner though) told me to throw his knife in the trash.


----------



## WildBoar

The heart, Dave -- watch the heart!


----------



## Dave Martell

WildBoar said:


> The heart, Dave -- watch the heart!




I know....I'm feeling the BP rise


----------



## tk59

I'd like to see one of these junkers in person.


----------



## ThEoRy

That's just sloppy as all hell right there. I've never ground a knife before but I care about the work I do. Even on my first try it would be 1000 times better than that ****. I couldn't sleep at night if the work I did that day was unsatisfactory to my own worst critic. Myself.


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## tk59

Yeah. I've ground a few knives now. I would have given up if I couldn't do better than that, lol.


----------



## ifor

That was me!!!
I got it at *cough cough* togo.com

I am going to send him an email and buy something from elsewhere.


----------



## dav

I've got 2 Moritaka knives and both are fine but it amazes me that if indeed this is so widespread why with all this bad publicity doesn't the maker take note. I'm aware that Moritaka has provided an "explanation" but surely they will find this affects their sales eventually or perhaps not. I found that they are still a recognised swordsmith (they are listed) so I'm guessing someone knows how to make a knife I just can' t understand their complacency. One of my knives is a Damascus Gyuto and fit and finish is very good, grind etc... spot on, Dave have you found any of the Moritaka Damascus knives have this problem as I'm presuming these are their "better" products?


----------



## Dave Martell

dav said:


> I've got 2 Moritaka knives and both are fine but it amazes me that if indeed this is so widespread why with all this bad publicity doesn't the maker take note. I'm aware that Moritaka has provided an "explanation" but surely they will find this affects their sales eventually or perhaps not. I found that they are still a recognised swordsmith (they are listed) so I'm guessing someone knows how to make a knife I just can' t understand their complacency. One of my knives is a Damascus Gyuto and fit and finish is very good, grind etc... spot on, Dave have you found any of the Moritaka Damascus knives have this problem as I'm presuming these are their "better" products?




I've only had one bad experience with a damascus Moritaka (a kamagata usuba). I was asked to thin the blade as it was thick above the bevel (about 1/2") up and while doing this the core delaminated/separated from the cladding and popped a 2-3" long section out that was 1/2" deep from the edge. Upon inspection I could see that there was only 1/2" of AS core steel inserted into the cladding - it did not extend up into the blade beyond this point. Later, a member posted YouTube videos showing how Moritaka inserts these core steel bits into the cladding and this shed light on the subject, it looks like they use very little expensive steel (which is OK and quite normal) but don't forge it through to the spine as others do. 

Anyway, I can't completely blame them for this as it's possible that I ground the knife too thin and caused the delamination but it does occur to me that I've never had this happen with any other maker before or since so.....


----------



## JBroida

if people are making knives, i promise you they are not making swords (in any real capacity)

*in reference to Japan with regard to traditional work


----------



## mikemac

dav said:


> .....why...doesn't the maker take note.....?



To me, why the maker does what the maker does is irrelavent. Back when I [had money, and...] bought my Carter, my Watanabe, etc. Moritaka was non existant. They had no market pressence or penetration among "us" Knife knuts on the forums. So whatever sales are coming thru the various forum pipelines are just additional gravey for him

What has really really puzzled me is why....*WHY* someone would buy one of those knives knowing there is at least some kind of issue with them. The controversy of all other knife makers combined - including Cutco - doesn't come close to the debate, difference of opinion and controversy of moritaka.


----------



## dav

Well its quite off putting for me (and I guess many others) as asthetically I like the rustic look and the knives I have are easy to sharpen, retain their edges well and cut well. Although I seem to have been OK it will affect any future purchase for me with regards this maker. I still can't believe that they won't take note and realise that with this growing poor reputation in time sales will be affected. Marketing wise once the damage is done even if QC improves it will be much harder to turn around.


----------



## Dave Martell

Yeah they're sword making connection is a shtick based off of previous generations having actually done this work. They love using this to add to their hype. Every time they get a westerner in their shop they put them in front of banner and have them hold a sword and smile while they shoot pictures - it's all play.


----------



## Eamon Burke

I don't understand the reasoning behind "takes and holds and edge well".

Of course they do, they are Aogami Super. Lots of Japanese brands do great heat treating Aogami Super. A Dojo Gyuto is AS and it's $80. I wonder what the HT is like on those.


----------



## Dave Martell

dav said:


> Well its quite off putting for me (and I guess many others) as asthetically I like the rustic look and the knives I have are easy to sharpen, retain their edges well and cut well. Although I seem to have been OK it will affect any future purchase for me with regards this maker. I still can't believe that they won't take note and realise that with this growing poor reputation in time sales will be affected. Marketing wise once the damage is done even if QC improves it will be much harder to turn around.




Hey if your knives are working good for you and they sharpen up with no issues then cool - no worries, I wouldn't get put off in your case.

BTW, years ago while discussing this matter with a future Moritaka e-tailer (I was disclosing what I know about the knives) I was told by this Moritaka e-tailer, "Well you know Dave, there really isn't a problem unless the customer knows about it". Yup - true story folks


----------



## dav

I'm sure they aren't Jon although Fujiwara is another. Moritaka were making swords until relatively recently and the current elder Moritaka is still a listed swordsmith, I'm obviously not knowledgeable in this area but for the life of me can't understand that a maker whom represents a solid family reputation is producing products it seems at best of variable quality. Mike whether the trade he/they get via "foreign" forums is of much importance or not eventually even their main market will desert them as I'm sure its a competitive area and their are certainly other offerings at a similar price point (Japan or where ever their main market is) who seem to be more consistent around QC, or maybe its a question of Moritaka sending all their seconds (or thirds and fourths lol) to the US!

Eamon other than me spelling "an" wrong all I was doing was stating the obvious (to me) I'm sure others do too its just I like or liked the combination of the rustic/kuro-uchi appearance and general performance I'm getting from these knives. Oh well in my search for great British knives I'm finding the resurgence of the little mesters and some new makers who are producing some lovely hand made sheffield knives maybe I'll stop buying Japanese altogether!


----------



## JBroida

my wife's family is close friends with a very well know swordsmith... he and i have had a number of talks about this. Last time, he mentioned how a number of knifemakers come to be judged with regard to their swordmaking so they can get the qualification. Besides saying they werent good at all, he made a point of asking some why they were going through the trouble of becoming certified as a swordmaker to which they replied, "so i can sell more knives"

that that for what its worth


----------



## Dave Martell

This maker will always sell because of the price point/bang for buck appeal hits just right and because problems often don't appear right away, they don't show until after you've used the knife for awhile, a repair is needed, or sharpening has occurred which all leave them blameless. Couple this with retailers who are bottom line driven and the problem just goes on and on because they (the retailers) have no incentive to address the problems with the maker. Also, and unfortunately, most of these knives are purchased by newer Japanese knife users who have no idea what they're looking at and even when older more experienced users purchase them they don't want to see what they know is likely there. I see 7 out of 10 (at least) Moritaka knives with overgrinds so what would make me think that this doesn't represent what's floating around out there? 

Maybe we need to get an attorney to gather up all the bad knives and send them back to these retailers for repair, replacement, or refund? I bet that'd be one hell of a box full if I inspected them to qualify. LOL


----------



## Dave Martell

JBroida said:


> ..... he made a point of asking some why they were going through the trouble of becoming certified as a swordmaker to which they replied, "so i can sell more knives"


----------



## dav

I'm sure your right Dave maybe I'll be lucky who knows maybe not, but I guess with the limited amount of time I'll use any knife and my relative lack of skill in the kitchen I'm probably one of the guys you are talking about. I will be trying different makers in time but even from my position this maker has lost at least a few more sales, and I'm sure many others so in time it will add up I'm sure. We live in a small world where anyone who is English speaking searching for Moritaka is likely to come up with a post around these quality issues so I'm guessing in time it will hurt their sales. I've experienced the excellent service from Shinichi Watanabe and am sure that there are many others like him. Me I would want to take pride in anything I do, I was a tradesman and prided myself in the quality of my work so just can't understand this whole situation. If I produced or did some work for someone and came up with substandard work 9which I have never done) I'd deal with it/put it right as I'd be too embarrassed to put my name to it let alone carry on doing the same thing.


----------



## Marko Tsourkan

ThEoRy said:


> That's just sloppy as all hell right there. I've never ground a knife before but I care about the work I do. Even on my first try it would be 1000 times better than that ****. I couldn't sleep at night if the work I did that day was unsatisfactory to my own worst critic. Myself.



I am like that too. I too can't sleep sometimes, if I know that I need to improve. 

It is very hard not to notice junk around you, if your preference are hard wired that way.


M


----------



## ThEoRy

Marko Tsourkan said:


> I am like that too. I too can't sleep sometimes, if I know that I need to improve.
> 
> It is very hard not to notice junk around you, if your preference are hard wired that way.
> 
> 
> M



Some people are content with being mediocre. I knew students in high school who were happy just getting all C's. If I got a B I would torture myself. 

It was difficult in my transition to becoming a manager because I couldn't for the life of me understand that other people don't hold themselves to as high a standard of perfection as I do myself. I just couldn't fathom the idea that being "just good enough" was ok for some. I just couldn't even conceive that was possible. "They have to demand perfection of themselves right?" "That's how I feel about myself and work ethic so it must be how they feel too right?" I was projecting my own feelings onto others when I thought about their output and production. I had to actually be told, "No, they don't think like you, they don't feel like you, they're not you, that's why you are their manager now." And "Some people are happy just being a C." It was difficult to grasp but I get it now. Like you said Marko, guys like us are just wired different.

You either got it or you don't. In my book, Moritaka doesn't have it.


----------



## steeley

very interesting thanks for sharing


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## richinva

Is this limited to a particular style of knife or is it across the board?


----------



## jayhay

BurkeCutlery said:


> I don't understand the reasoning behind "takes and holds and edge well".
> 
> Of course they do, they are Aogami Super. Lots of Japanese brands do great heat treating Aogami Super. A Dojo Gyuto is AS and it's $80. I wonder what the HT is like on those.



I have a Dojo Nakiri that cost about $80. It's 5-6 years old and I use it everyday in a pro kitchen. It's the best knife I've ever owned. Wicked shard and holds an edge FOREVER. It's why I want another, but now, fully carbon knife. After buying many "wrong" knives when I had cash, I'm now trying to buy the right knife with relatively little $.

Whenever someone talks about Dojo's, I want to show 'em some love.


----------



## Dave Martell

UPDATE>

I heard that the etailer was contacted regarding this crap-O-rific knife and has agreed to accept it for return. I hope that it finds it's way back to the maker vs back on the shelf for sale.


----------



## mhlee

The most troubling thing to me is that it's a Japanese company that is doing this. The reputation of Japanese manufacturers for building the best quality items was earned over years and is a reflection of the culture - dedication, hard work, repetition leads to success. 

The fact that Moritaka blows off such *significant* problems as part of being "hand made" is a cop out. Minor problems are acceptable. Significant ones should never be. But, I can say that I've corresponded with other vendors and they've used the same reason.


----------



## Eamon Burke

dav said:


> Eamon other than me spelling "an" wrong all I was doing was stating the obvious (to me) I'm sure others do too its just I like or liked the combination of the rustic/kuro-uchi appearance and general performance I'm getting from these knives. Oh well in my search for great British knives I'm finding the resurgence of the little mesters and some new makers who are producing some lovely hand made sheffield knives maybe I'll stop buying Japanese altogether!



I hope that didn't come off as combative towards you. You are not at all the first person I've heard that from, and not just about Moritakas. I just feel like if you have a professional Japanese kitchen knife maker who is using such a well-known and oft-used steel like Aogami Super, you shouldn't be impressed if it performs as expected, and AS is considered by many to be the best blade steel in the world. It'd be like getting a knife from an ABS MasterSmith in 1095 and primarily liking the knife for it's edge-taking. Duh. It's 1095. You didn't pay for edge taking, the knife has to go beyond that to be worth any more than an Old Hickory.

Know what I mean?

These knives just don't scream "bargain" to me. I remember considering them a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away when I was buying my first good knives. They were my "pricey" consideration.


----------



## sudsy9977

my guessis the crap o rific is sharpened by an expert and returned to the customer unsuspectingly......ryan


----------



## mpukas

I've heard from a reputable source that shall not be named that this problem occurs with other makers. It's not something unique to Moritaka, but maybe more frequent. 

My take on it, and I don't know exactly how they make and grind their knives, is that they use a particular grinding method and/or tool(s), that other makers use as well, that if not done properly can lead to over-grinding. Moritaka really make price-point products in the realm of Japanese knives, particularly for AS, and they can only "afford" to put so much time and skill into their knives. You get what you pay for. It's a crap shoot - maybe you get a good one, maybe you don't. I love my 150 petty. Never touch my 270 kiri-gyuto - stupid knife IMO.


----------



## Dave Martell

sudsy9977 said:


> my guessis the crap o rific is sharpened by an expert and returned to the customer unsuspectingly......ryan




If I had to place a bet on what will happen with this knife I'd use past history as my ace in the hole and my bet would be that it'll be used as an example of how this isn't a problem and how I'm picking on Moritaka and how it can be fixed (even though it isn't a problem)....blah blah blah.... On and yeah it'll be the first time they ever heard of this (non) problem... :yap:


----------



## maxim

wow man on that Nakiri ovregrind is very huge, nothing that i have seen before :eyebrow:
I must say in that price point something like this should never happen !!
But as it was mentioned before Moritaka is not primerly knife makers but gardening or country blacksmiths, so maybe edge straightness is not so important for them


----------



## kalaeb

You guys are killing me. I was going to sell my Moritaka KS, but my re-sale value goes down every time this comes up. J/K, that is probably one of the best examples of an overgrind I have ever seen. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## mhenry

I'll buy it






kalaeb said:


> You guys are killing me. I was going to sell my Moritaka KS, but my re-sale value goes down every time this comes up. J/K, that is probably one of the best examples of an overgrind I have ever seen. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## sachem allison

kalaeb said:


> You guys are killing me. I was going to sell my Moritaka KS, but my re-sale value goes down every time this comes up. J/K, that is probably one of the best examples of an overgrind I have ever seen. Thanks for posting it.



ain't got no money, but I'll trade you for it. that's how I get most of my knives.lol you'd be amazed at the kinds of things people are willing to trade for( suji, paring knife). lol


----------



## kalaeb

sachem allison said:


> ain't got no money, but I'll trade you for it. that's how I get most of my knives.lol you'd be amazed at the kinds of things people are willing to trade for( suji, paring knife). lol



That must have been a heck of a trade. Those knives are beautiful, next time I am in NY I will have to ring you to check them out.


----------



## Dave Martell

sudsy9977 said:


> my guessis the crap o rific is sharpened by an expert and returned to the customer unsuspectingly......ryan




Well it appears that the crap-O-rific is _*NOT*_ headed to the maker or even the etailer for that matter...it's headed to Shillfly (AKA Mr Knife Fanatic) instead. 

Why??? 

Well Shillfly works for the etailer and just started sharpening so my guess is what here??? Yeeeeyah


----------



## sachem allison

kalaeb said:


> That must have been a heck of a trade. Those knives are beautiful, next time I am in NY I will have to ring you to check them out.



They won't be here, They are a gift to an old friend.


----------



## Dave Martell

Sorry to get so negative here folks. This is just an old issue for me that gets tiring to deal with. In the end my hopes are simply that the users of these knives get a good product and happy use.


----------



## Marko Tsourkan

Well, that knife can be fixed, EASILY.

I would start with removing 1/8 or so on the edge, keeping the original profile. That should get me to a thickness on the edge that will allow me to regrind the bevels and remove overgrinds. 

Next, grind in new bevels. Now, I have to do something with the new mid-section thickness, as the knife is less tall and overall thickness hasn't changed. I need to thin and thinning has likely to be done down from the spine - there goes that nice KU finish and the maker's mark. 

Hand thinning the edge to blend into the new geometry. 

Finishing (machine or hand).

So, after about 3 hours or work (about the same time it takes me to grind a knife), I would end up with a fixed knife, without holes in the edge, dropped heel or over-grinds on the bevels. Plus it will be shiny and clean - no more KU. It will also be 1/8 less tall. 

The cost of the service - $150 ($200 if I do a hand-rubbed finish) 

Send them over, folks. 

M

PS: I am joking about offering this service, btw. By the process is accurate.


----------



## Taz575

This problem isn't limited to knives in terms of the manufacturers ignoring problems. I had the same issue with Glock handguns where they got a bad batch of steel and the frame rails were shearing off randomly. It was a non issue and they replaced the frame, but they never came out with it. If people had an issue, they would replace the frame for free, but they never did a recall or notice to owners or anything. They also had issues with their .40 cal pistols when LEO's used a light on the rail; guns jamming or not cycling at all from the weight, etc. Again, never really acknowledged, new generations of the Glocks were supposed to fix it. Springfield Armory had a series of issues with their M1A rifles and the scope mount groove on the left hand side of the receiver being way undersized to what the specs called for and no scope mounts would securely lock in properly. I went to a local manufacturer of scope mounts to show them the issue and they figured out an inspection gauge kit so people could tell if their receiver was in or out of spec and get dimensions so the mount company could custom machine the mount to fit their rifle. Again, it was a widespread issue over a 10,000# serial number range IIRC, if not more, and was never acknowledged by the manufacturer and they were very slow to correct it.

Many places are letting the customer do the QC and only fixing it if someone notices the issue and complains. Sucks, but that's the way many places run their business now.

I got a fillet knife kit and the blade had at least 3 big dips per side that were basically overgrinds all the way down to the edge from the spine. Major oopsies on the grinds on that blade!! I wonder if the overgrinds are caused when the grind is started and stopped, or their holding jig slips or something?? I have seen the videos where the blade gets clamped into a big wooden (looks like wood) block that they hold when they grind, or if it is from the forging process where it was thinned too much and then ground even thinner in that spot?


----------



## bieniek

Dave Martell said:


> Well it appears that the crap-O-rific is _*NOT*_ headed to the maker or even the etailer for that matter...it's headed to Shillfly (AKA Mr Knife Fanatic) instead.
> 
> Why???
> 
> Well Shillfly works for the etailer and just started sharpening so my guess is what here??? Yeeeeyah



Yeah but he is from southeast Louisiana, and they do A LOT cooking down there 

:stinker:


----------



## EdipisReks

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Well, that knife can be fixed, EASILY.
> 
> I would start with removing 1/8 or so on the edge, keeping the original profile. That should get me to a thickness on the edge that will allow me to regrind the bevels and remove overgrinds.
> 
> Next, grind in new bevels. Now, I have to do something with the new mid-section thickness, as the knife is less tall and overall thickness hasn't changed. I need to thin and thinning has likely to be done down from the spine - there goes that nice KU finish and the maker's mark.
> 
> Hand thinning the edge to blend into the new geometry.
> 
> Finishing (machine or hand).
> 
> So, after about 3 hours or work (about the same time it takes me to grind a knife), I would end up with a fixed knife, without holes in the edge, dropped heel or over-grinds on the bevels. Plus it will be shiny and clean - no more KU. It will also be 1/8 less tall.
> 
> The cost of the service - $150 ($200 if I do a hand-rubbed finish)
> 
> Send them over, folks.
> 
> M
> 
> PS: I am joking about offering this service, btw. By the process is accurate.



i'd be happy to do it for $100 ($150 with handed rubbed finish) if a bottle of Highland Park 25 is thrown in...


----------



## labor of love

bieniek said:


> Yeah but he is from southeast Louisiana, and they do A LOT cooking down there
> 
> :stinker:



What southeast Louisiana have to do with anything?


----------



## mhlee

I think all that Bieniek is saying is that because they do a lot of cooking down there, *of course* he knows how to sharpen and fix a knife.


----------



## mr drinky

At least the spine looks straight on that nakiri 

k.


----------



## bieniek

labor of love said:


> What southeast Louisiana have to do with anything?





Dave Martell said:


> ....works for the etailer and *just started sharpening* ...





Mr Knife Fanatic said:


> Being from Southeast Louisiana, we do a lot of cooking down here. Everything from chicken, to fish, to pork, to beef, and the famous "holy trio" of veggies, our knives get used all the time. Never a dull moment down here, I feel your knives should experience the same spice and flair.




Thanks Mhlee


----------



## mpukas

Dave Martell said:


> Well it appears that the crap-O-rific is _*NOT*_ headed to the maker or even the etailer for that matter...it's headed to Shillfly (AKA Mr Knife Fanatic) instead.
> 
> Why???
> 
> Well Shillfly works for the etailer and just started sharpening so my guess is what here??? Yeeeeyah



His handle is Soulfly, not Shillfly. You bashed Sean a while ago by posting a vid he did of himself shaving w/ a knife (and that post may have mysteriously disappeared). Then in the controversy here from someone hacking his forum name and making troll posts on his behalf, you cleared up that mess and said he was welcome here. Now you're bashing him again. No wonder why Sean thinks this forum doesn't like him and he doesn't want to be a member here. 

I wouldn't send one of my knives to Sean either - as I previsouly stated, for sharpening or fixing (I bought a 52100 Ultimatum but returned it becasue there were many things I didn't like about it, and the sharpening job was indeed terrible), but belittling him because he's a novice sharpener or his associations is not appropriate.


----------



## VoodooMajik

Soo, from what I'm gathering this is an issue that happens with clad knives(primarily but not exclusively Moritaka)? I would imagine it's fixable with knives that are single pieces of steel?


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

VoodooMajik said:


> Soo, from what I'm gathering this is an issue that happens with clad knives(primarily but not exclusively Moritaka)? I would imagine it's fixable with knives that are single pieces of steel?



No, it is a function of poor grinding, and can happen to any knife, regardless of construction. And is not "fixable" in a monosteel knife, either.


----------



## Dave Martell

mpukas said:


> His handle is Soulfly, not Shillfly. You bashed Sean a while ago by posting a vid he did of himself shaving w/ a knife (and that post may have mysteriously disappeared). Then in the controversy here from someone hacking his forum name and making troll posts on his behalf, you cleared up that mess and said he was welcome here. Now you're bashing him again. No wonder why Sean thinks this forum doesn't like him and he doesn't want to be a member here.
> 
> I wouldn't send one of my knives to Sean either - as I previsouly stated, for sharpening or fixing (I bought a 52100 Ultimatum but returned it becasue there were many things I didn't like about it, and the sharpening job was indeed terrible), but belittling him because he's a novice sharpener or his associations is not appropriate.




I doubt any post I made in the past has disappeared mysteriously but whatever....

So do I have a problem with this guy? Yeah sure I do, he's a fanboy and I hate that. I view guys like him no different than girls who go backstage at concerts to service the band. They get some perverse pleasure from making themselves out to be someone important by getting closer to the powers to be. He came into the community and started making product videos and was an instant YouTube expert. he knew that the retailer was using him but he played along anyway and I believe it's because he likes being used. I can't speculate why he likes it but the end result is that it got him noticed where he was nobody beforehand.

Please, this has nothing to do with him being a new sharpener and me disrespecting that, it's about me disliking this low base behavior he shows us that is derived from his associations. I made this very clear before and I'm saying it again now.

Even though I think all of this about him I still welcome the guy here _*IF*_ he leaves his fanboy crap at the door. 

I hope that you can see the difference between what you stated and my actual feelings on the subject.


----------



## NO ChoP!

I find that everytime Moritaka grind issues arise, cktg is somehow always the brunt. Makes the real issue less credible.... 

I have no favour in any particular direction, but the constant bashing is stagnant....


----------



## Dave Martell

NO ChoP! said:


> I find that everytime Moritaka grind issues arise, cktg is somehow always the brunt. Makes the real issue less credible....
> 
> I have no favour in any particular direction, but the constant bashing is stagnant....




It's unfortunately true.....hey maybe that's because they sell these knives? Hmmmm......


EDIT - I'm not pointing a finger at CKTG specifically though (or at least I'm trying not to)....I'm pointing towards anyone who sells these knives because in my opinion you have to have a blind eye to let these issues pass.


----------



## mhlee

NO ChoP! said:


> I find that everytime Moritaka grind issues arise, cktg is somehow always the brunt. Makes the real issue less credible.... I have no favour in any particular direction, but the constant bashing is stagnant....




The main problem, IMHO, is that this is a customer service problem. From what I know, Moritaka does not have a US office. Consequently, the retailers that sell these products are the only people who can address any defects. 

It is my understanding that in almost all states, a retailer is at least partially responsible any defective products it sells. And, in some states, a retailer can be held to be jointly and severally, i.e. *100% liable for any defective products they sell* and it is the retailer's responsibility to seek any kind of contribution or indemnification from the manufacturer for any losses that it pays. A retailer always shares some responsibility for any defective products it sells. 

Here's an analogy. Let's say one of your customers gets sick from a salad that you sell at your restaurant. Would you tell your customer, "Go talk to the guy who grew the lettuce?" Conversely, what if you were the guy who got sick from food at a restaurant? Would you accept that explanation? 

I've had to confront retailers that I've bought defective or broken items from and it sucks to hear, "You need to talk directly to the manufacturer." Really??? I just dropped hundreds/thousands of dollars to buy something from you that you made money off of and then you're refusing to help me get it fixed or replace it and it becomes my responsibility to initiate, take all steps and deal with them to have something fixed/replaced? 

Fact is, this is something that every retailer must deal with and accept; if they are willing to take the risk of selling items that it knows are likely to be defective, well then they're taking the risk of having to face complaints, lawsuits for that. And that's their business decision. But, they are, by law, liable for the defective products they sell. 

As for people who knowingly by a Moritaka despite having knowledge of the defects, it's basically an assumption of risk. But, for those people who just see a White 2 cheap kurouchi gyuto or nakiri and say, "Hey, that's a great buy" and get a lemon, it's really unfortunate. They didn't know better and they end up going through the hassle of trying to return, get fixed, get a refund, etc. of a defective knife. 

And, if you think that a retailer, in this case, c k t g, shouldn't bear the brunt of the blame, who should besides Moritaka? It's pretty clear Moritaka will just continue producing their knives just as they have in the past. 

A retailer can tell Moritaka to improve their QC, and even threaten to stop selling their products. If a retailer has asked Moritaka to improve their QC and Moritaka refuses to, then a retailer has two options: stop selling Moritaka products, or assume the risk of selling potentially defective knives. And it appears that a certain retailer has chosen the latter. 

And that's where the main problem seems to be now - customer service. In this case, c k t g is not a manufacturer and cannot (or won't) replace these defective knives with a new, non-defective item. So, fixes are being offered for these knives. Whether that's sufficient is up to the consumer. 

But, as long as defective Moritaka knives are sold and bought, this topic will continue as it should. I mean, that's why we're all here, right? To learn about GOOD knives, and buy GOOD knives, not defective knives, right? 

It's also not bashing if customers continue to have problems with the retailer or manufacturer of knives. Hell, there were recent threads about QC issues with Bill Burke's and Devin's knives. But, both manufacturers personally took it upon themselves and fix the issues - they didn't farm them out to other people. And for that, I certainly have gained A LOT of respect for Bill and Devin because they are taking it upon themselves to deal directly with consumers in the event that issues arise. Hopefully, for them, selling direct to us has been a financial benefit by not dealing with a middleman/retailer. 

Personally, as a person who almost bought a Moritaka, but then read of all these problems, I am so flipping glad that I never did. I never will. And I have people like Dave, and threads like this, to keep me from buying bad knives. 

But, if the goal is to *protect buyers* from buying Moritaka knives, then maybe disgruntled buyers will start "www.moritakaknivessuck.com."


----------



## labor of love

Ok. So return your moritaka to mark then. He never said he wouldn't accept returns. I've yet to hear a single person here explain to mark their moritaka has a screwed up grind and they want a refund.


----------



## sudsy9977

labor of love said:


> Ok. So return your moritaka to mark then. He never said he wouldn't accept returns. I've yet to hear a single person here explain to mark their moritaka has a screwed up grind and they want a refund.




i bought amoritaka from mark and sent it directly to dave to check first.....it was a clunker and he had no problem returning it.....thats notreally the point though if u ask me.....ryan


----------



## Dave Martell

labor of love said:


> Ok. So return your moritaka to mark then. He never said he wouldn't accept returns. I've yet to hear a single person here explain to mark their moritaka has a screwed up grind and they want a refund.






I know for a fact that tons of people (that I've dealt with who have Moritaka knife issues) have contacted their retailer (that sold them their Moritaka knife) and that each time they were told that they were the first person who has ever brought this to their attention. In some cases refunds/exchanges were offered. In almost all cases these people did not report anything on the internet.


----------



## Dave Martell

sudsy9977 said:


> i bought amoritaka from mark and sent it directly to dave to check first.....it was a clunker and he had no problem returning it.....thats notreally the point though if u ask me.....ryan




Something worth noting in your case is that we wanted the knife to be good. I was still on speaking terms with Mark and didn't relish the idea of getting involved with a mess with him and you wanted this knife because it seemed to be a good deal and it was to fill a hole in your kit. 

The problem with this particular knife was very small compared to most, however, it was indicative of the larger potential problem that is seen to develop over time as a hole in the edge which led you to decide on it's return - a wise decision.


----------



## labor of love

sudsy9977 said:


> i bought amoritaka from mark and sent it directly to dave to check first.....it was a clunker and he had no problem returning it.....thats notreally the point though if u ask me.....ryan



Well mhlee was arguing that the retailer is partially responsible, so whether or not he accepts returns kind of is the point.


----------



## mhlee

That is part of my point.

But, my main point was that whether the resolution is repair, or return and refund, this thread is neither about a retailer having to take the brunt of criticism (which it or any other seller of goods should because any seller of goods, whether a retailer or manufacturer, is likely responsible under law for some damages, and possibly 100% of damages, to a consumer for selling a defective product) or whether this thread is bashing a retailer (it is not because it is raising a very important issue to the members here, i.e. a retailer continuing to sell knives that have a history of being defective). 

The great thing about this forum is that criticism has not been censored and while, in this case, it is focused on one retailer in particular because the knife in question was bought from that retailer, other manufacturers have received criticism as well, including some of THE BEST here. Sorry.


----------



## Namaxy

mhlee said:


> The main problem, IMHO, is that this is a customer service problem. From what I know, Moritaka does not have a US office. Consequently, the retailers that sell these products are the only people who can address any defects.
> 
> It is my understanding that in almost all states, a retailer is at least partially responsible any defective products it sells. And, in some states, a retailer can be held to be jointly and severally, i.e. *100% liable for any defective products they sell* and it is the retailer's responsibility to seek any kind of contribution or indemnification from the manufacturer for any losses that it pays. A retailer always shares some responsibility for any defective products it sells.
> 
> Here's an analogy. Let's say one of your customers gets sick from a salad that you sell at your restaurant. Would you tell your customer, "Go talk to the guy who grew the lettuce?" Conversely, what if you were the guy who got sick from food at a restaurant? Would you accept that explanation?
> 
> I've had to confront retailers that I've bought defective or broken items from and it sucks to hear, "You need to talk directly to the manufacturer." Really??? I just dropped hundreds/thousands of dollars to buy something from you that you made money off of and then you're refusing to help me get it fixed or replace it and it becomes my responsibility to initiate, take all steps and deal with them to have something fixed/replaced?
> 
> Fact is, this is something that every retailer must deal with and accept; if they are willing to take the risk of selling items that it knows are likely to be defective, well then they're taking the risk of having to face complaints, lawsuits for that. And that's their business decision. But, they are, by law, liable for the defective products they sell.
> 
> As for people who knowingly by a Moritaka despite having knowledge of the defects, it's basically an assumption of risk. But, for those people who just see a White 2 cheap kurouchi gyuto or nakiri and say, "Hey, that's a great buy" and get a lemon, it's really unfortunate. They didn't know better and they end up going through the hassle of trying to return, get fixed, get a refund, etc. of a defective knife.
> 
> And, if you think that a retailer, in this case, c k t g, shouldn't bear the brunt of the blame, who should besides Moritaka? It's pretty clear Moritaka will just continue producing their knives just as they have in the past.
> 
> A retailer can tell Moritaka to improve their QC, and even threaten to stop selling their products. If a retailer has asked Moritaka to improve their QC and Moritaka refuses to, then a retailer has two options: stop selling Moritaka products, or assume the risk of selling potentially defective knives. And it appears that a certain retailer has chosen the latter.
> 
> And that's where the main problem seems to be now - customer service. In this case, c k t g is not a manufacturer and cannot (or won't) replace these defective knives with a new, non-defective item. So, fixes are being offered for these knives. Whether that's sufficient is up to the consumer.
> 
> But, as long as defective Moritaka knives are sold and bought, this topic will continue as it should. I mean, that's why we're all here, right? To learn about GOOD knives, and buy GOOD knives, not defective knives, right?
> 
> It's also not bashing if customers continue to have problems with the retailer or manufacturer of knives. Hell, there were recent threads about QC issues with Bill Burke's and Devin's knives. But, both manufacturers personally took it upon themselves and fix the issues - they didn't farm them out to other people. And for that, I certainly have gained A LOT of respect for Bill and Devin because they are taking it upon themselves to deal directly with consumers in the event that issues arise. Hopefully, for them, selling direct to us has been a financial benefit by not dealing with a middleman/retailer.
> 
> Personally, as a person who almost bought a Moritaka, but then read of all these problems, I am so flipping glad that I never did. I never will. And I have people like Dave, and threads like this, to keep me from buying bad knives.
> 
> But, if the goal is to *protect buyers* from buying Moritaka knives, then maybe disgruntled buyers will start "www.moritakaknivessuck.com."



I'd like to agree with Mike on this....specifically that it's a customer service issue. I'm new to this world of high end knives, but I'm not young and I'm not new to buying specialty products. It's clear after being here a little less than two months that there is a lot of bad blood between e-vendors, producers and third party service people. Seems like people have taken sides ......you could almost call it old forum vs. new forum. I haven't been around long enough to know where everyone stands, and as a consumer, I'm not sure I really care. This may sound crass, but I joined these forums to try to learn about the craft, make better purchasing decisions, and eventually contribute to a subject i care a lot about. I don't want to be forced to pick a side.....and if I have either a positive or a negative customer service experience to share, I'd like to be able to do so without recourse or getting labeled as pro one side or the other.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Mhlee, I'm sorry, but the above makes little sense...Your main point was what it's not????

I do not agree that other manufacturers have received like criticism. No one called Devin or Bill any names, nor tormented their supporters. Apples and watermelons...

Would I personally continue to sell a product that had quality control issues? Probably not... honestly, thus far I haven't heard much outside from Dave having issues; Dave being the arch nemesis of said retailer....

I stand by the many Moritakas I own, have sharpened and have seen through my kitchen and in the hands of friends; are they perfect, nope. Is a Carter? Far, far, faaar from it.


----------



## NO ChoP!

""""there is a lot of bad blood between e-vendors, producers and third party service people. Seems like people have taken sides ......you could almost call it old forum vs. new forum. I haven't been around long enough to know where everyone stands, and as a consumer, I'm not sure I really care. This may sound crass, but I joined these forums to try to learn about the craft, make better purchasing decisions, and eventually contribute to a subject i care a lot about. I don't want to be forced to pick a side.....and if I have either a positive or a negative customer service experience to share, I'd like to be able to do so without recourse or getting labeled as pro one side or the other."""""



AMEN....


----------



## jaybett

A while back, a forum member sent a Moritaka to Dave. It had the hole and over grind issues. The member contacted Moritaka. It took a few e-mails, before Moritaka understood the complaint. They acknowledged the issues, but that was the cost, in order to sell a knife at a low price. Another forum member pointed out that people who worked in harsh environments, such as the fish markets, wanted inexpensive knives, and were willing to deal with issues. 

What is puzzling, has been the vendors response to these issues. When Dave made a post about the limits of the three finger test, for sharpness. Murray Carter responded with a strong post on his website about the benefits of the three finger test. I thought it was a good debate.

Enough people besides Dave have reported the issue, so it is a legitimate concern. While it may be risky, I think that it would a good idea for the vendor to acknowledge the issue and then explain what steps are being taken to ensure that the customer does not get a defective knife. One vendor acknowledged a problem with Aritsugu, and offered a solution. Why not do the same with Moritaka? 

Currently it seems vendors are taking the mistakes do happen approach, and if there is a problem, the knife can be returned. In general this is true, but in the case of Moritaka a pattern has developed. Another problem is this isn't an issue, that is easy to spot. It may take a year or longer, before it becomes apparent. Will a vendor take back a knife after a year or two of use? 

Jay


----------



## mhlee

NO ChoP! said:


> Mhlee, I'm sorry, but the above makes little sense...Your main point was what it's not????
> 
> I do not agree that other manufacturers have received like criticism. No one called Devin or Bill any names, nor tormented their supporters. Apples and watermelons...
> 
> Would I personally continue to sell a product that had quality control issues? Probably not... honestly, thus far I haven't heard much outside from Dave having issues; Dave being the arch nemesis of said retailer....
> 
> I stand by the many Moritakas I own, have sharpened and have seen through my kitchen and in the hands of friends; are they perfect, nope. Is a Carter? Far, far, faaar from it.



What doesn't make sense about what I wrote? I think my main point was exactly what I wrote: the retailer should be primarily responsible for handling issues with defective products and, here, it's a customer service issue because (1) people have difficulty communicating directly with Moritaka or returning things directly, (2) Moritaka won't necessarily replace such knives and most importantly, (3) Moritaka is not in a position to offer a refund.

One of the things that wasn't so clear in my earlier post is that a manufacturer *will not refund your money if you buy it from a retailer.* That's a main reason why no one should have to deal directly with a manufacturer if there's a problem with a defective product. You'll never get a refund. Only a repair and maybe a replacement. 

We have two very well respected knife sharpeners, one who also happens to make top quality knives, saying that Moritaka is seriously messed up. Other manufacturers don't receive such criticism because they either offer to fix them or replace them and such problems are less common. And, especially here, where makers deal directly with consumers, they are in a position to offer a refund. 

I am extremely sensitive to the fact that there is bad blood between Dave and said retailer. But, my comment was not directed to "take a side." Far from it. I've bought knives from both Dave and Mark. And for what it's worth, the Carter I bought and the Carters that I've used don't have any problems coming close to that Moritaka.


----------



## labor of love

I always assumed the majority of purchases of moritakas in the US were through the US retailer. Are their really that many people dealing directly with Moritaka? I still dont see why the US retailer should be held responsible for a transaction thats between customer and overseas knife company either. If you feel you need assistance with a potential refund or any other customer service/quality issues then you should make the purchase through a US retailer.


----------



## Dave Martell

This thread has taken a turn for the better. I believe this is the most progressive discussion that's been had on this subject yet.


----------



## mhlee

labor of love said:


> I always assumed the majority of purchases of moritakas in the US were through the US retailer. Are their really that many people dealing directly with Moritaka? I still dont see why the US retailer should be held responsible for a transaction thats between customer and overseas knife company either. If you feel you need assistance with a potential refund or any other customer service/quality issues then you should make the purchase through a US retailer.



I think that's one of the key facts here. Many of the transactions are going through US retailers. The customer service and remedies being offered by US retailers *IS *the issue.


----------



## labor of love

honestly, if these issues are as constant as they seem to be I think after enough returns the retailer will make a move to either improve quality or discontinue carrying the product. It just wouldnt make sense to replace 10 percent of the knives you sell or whatever percentage it is. Thats the resolution that I hope for.


----------



## labor of love

mhlee said:


> The customer service and remedies being offered by US retailers *IS *the issue.



Whats wrong with the customer service? Im pretty sure you can get a refund if you tell mark you have a grind issue. Am I missing something?


----------



## add

labor of love said:


> honestly, if these issues are as constant as they seem to be I think after enough returns the retailer will make a move to either improve quality or discontinue carrying the product. It just wouldnt make sense to replace 10 percent of the knives you sell or whatever percentage it is. Thats the resolution that I hope for.



Apparently, at least at this pont, the cost/benefit ratio remains in favor of status quo...


----------



## Dave Martell

There's quite a profit margin in selling some knives, high enough that most people would be surprised at what's at stake here. I would bet that selling knives can be profitable even in a high return/failure rate situation. 

I of course have no idea what deal anyone has with Moritaka so the above comment is just in general.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Agreed. If we find issues, demand results. Period. Enough returns and anyone would be stupid to continue the sales.

Dave, no more throwing away knives...send them back.


----------



## mhlee

NO ChoP! said:


> """"there is a lot of bad blood between e-vendors, producers and third party service people. Seems like people have taken sides ......you could almost call it old forum vs. new forum. I haven't been around long enough to know where everyone stands, and as a consumer, I'm not sure I really care. This may sound crass, but I joined these forums to try to learn about the craft, make better purchasing decisions, and eventually contribute to a subject i care a lot about. I don't want to be forced to pick a side.....and if I have either a positive or a negative customer service experience to share, I'd like to be able to do so without recourse or getting labeled as pro one side or the other."""""
> 
> 
> 
> AMEN....



My previous analysis and comment is my *own personal comment* (1) based on the fact that it's obvious (just based on that one picture) that Moritaka knives can have serious problems and what people have written about their experiences as far as trying to get these issues fixed and (2) my own personal *similar* experiences with Mark when I had issues with two different knives that had defects. Without going into details, it was a *very similar* experience to what this Moritaka buyer (and other Moritaka buyers) faced; Mark told me to contact the manufacturer directly to have the issues fixed and never offered a refund. And that's why I chimed in. Because I personally experienced something similar and it was extremely negative.

Chris. I don't know you and I have no ill will toward you. But, don't lump me in with others just because my tone is not positive. In fact, this is the first time that I've publicly written about this experience. 

It's quite clear that you got better service and products from Mark than me and I'm happy for you that you did and did not have to go through what I went through. I did not. 

Since you agree that we should all be able to write about positive or negative customer experiences, the next time someone comments about issues with Mark, I hope you will reserve judgment until the facts come out.


----------



## Dave Martell

NO ChoP! said:


> Dave, no more throwing away knives...send them back.




I've only thrown away ones that I got burnt on years ago (the ones I had to buy because I was stupid enough to sharpen them), all the ones since then are customer owned and get returned to them to do with what they will.


----------



## Eamon Burke

labor of love said:


> honestly, if these issues are as constant as they seem to be I think after enough returns the retailer will make a move to either improve quality or discontinue carrying the product. It just wouldnt make sense to replace 10 percent of the knives you sell or whatever percentage it is. Thats the resolution that I hope for.



That sentiment is the key here--but the Manufacturer's standpoint. 

Say you can drop the price point by $100-150 by having 1 in 1000 returned. They(Moritaka) have made it clear that this is not a big enough problem for their customer base. I doubt CKTG alone gets more than a few of these a year returned, and it's all guys here. What they(Moritaka) are banking on is having most of their knives come out right, and that when they don't, their customers either won't notice, or don't have a problem with a screwy edge. The trouble for those of us here is that they are right.

This seems to be a complex situation with a simple solution: don't buy one. If you care, don't buy one. 
Moritaka isn't trying to change your mind or set a new standard of perfection, and they don't have to. You can't fault a retailer for doing it's job--offering things for sale that customers want to buy. If you buy one in good faith without knowing, later find a hole and it and now you hate your knife, take it back!

But if you do know about the chance it could be a bad one, and you care about it(like anyone reading this)...

...Buy a Zakuri or something--it's Kuro Uchi, AS, same price, made in Japan. Or a Tanaka, it's damascus-clad Blue steel and $100 less. There are other fish in the sea.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Michael, honestly this is the first I've read of a knife not being accepted for a full refund. This is the type of information that should be shared. I understand peoples frustrations, but simply showing ones frustration without noted just cause isn't necessarily going to paint a proper picture for everyone reading these threads. 

I have stated many times, I have no allegiance to Mark, other than the fact he lives in my state, and we have crossed paths a few times; always cordially mind you. I have no ill will towards him, or towards Dave. Infact, I'd like to take the moment to thank Dave for his hard work with the forum; obviously we are all very fond of this place...

It is not my intent to be cynical; and if there are issues they should be addressed. It is my plea to try to keep things professional; that is it. I quoted the above statement, because those are also my sentiments. I do not want to taint the forums. If I have added to this, than I apologize to all. 

I've found myself many times in life sticking up for the underdog; it's my nature. If people bashed KKF I'd have my foot in their behind as well....


----------



## NO ChoP!

+1 on Tanaka...have 4 newer in my possession and a new wa-R2 proto on the way. Good peeps.....


----------



## labor of love

BurkeCutlery said:


> ...Buy a Zakuri or something--it's Kuro Uchi, AS, same price, made in Japan.



yes. If Moritakas were cheaper then I would understand but Zakuri is way nicer. The handles rock and the kuro uchi is nicer. But Moritakas have a sight profile advantage in their gyutos profile IMO


----------



## add

mhlee said:


> Mark told me to contact the manufacturer directly to have the issues fixed and never offered a refund...



At that point... _town crier_ with a strong arm and big azz bell.


----------



## chinacats

labor of love said:


> yes. If Moritakas were cheaper then I would understand but Zakuri is way nicer. The handles rock and the kuro uchi is nicer. But Moritakas have a sight profile advantage in their gyutos profile IMO



+1 on Zakuri...great knife for the $

Sucks about the moritakas though as they really are beautiful knives...


----------



## mhlee

NO ChoP! said:


> Michael, honestly this is the first I've read of a knife not being accepted for a full refund. This is the type of information that should be shared. I understand peoples frustrations, but simply showing ones frustration without noted just cause isn't necessarily going to paint a proper picture for everyone reading these threads.
> 
> I have stated many times, I have no allegiance to Mark, other than the fact he lives in my state, and we have crossed paths a few times; always cordially mind you. I have no ill will towards him, or towards Dave. Infact, I'd like to take the moment to thank Dave for his hard work with the forum; obviously we are all very fond of this place...
> 
> It is not my intent to be cynical; and if there are issues they should be addressed. It is my plea to try to keep things professional; that is it. I quoted the above statement, because those are also my sentiments. I do not want to taint the forums. If I have added to this, than I apologize to all.
> 
> I've found myself many times in life sticking up for the underdog; it's my nature. If people bashed KKF I'd have my foot in their behind as well....



Chris: 

Thanks for your explanation. Speaking for myself, I'd rather not get into the details of a complaint. 

While I do understand that some people may have opinions based on rumor, hearsay, etc., and not actual personal experience, I know that others, like myself, simply do not want to have to elaborate on their personal complaints because they're negative and we're trying to keep things positive. And I think that most people here do not even criticize, let alone bash, retailers/makers unless there are real factual reasons. I think things of this nature have been generally well handled by the members. I certainly won't add, even if I've personally had bad experiences with a retailer/maker, unless I feel that my opinion will help elaborate or add to a discussion because (1) I'm not a professional cook/chef and (2) I simply don't have the experience that other members do as far as knives and sharpening, etc. 

Nonetheless, going forward, I'm going to assume that people who have criticisms have legitimate criticisms. If I have questions about the reasons for such criticisms, I'll ask for a further explanation and basis for the criticism.


----------



## jaybett

Obvious problems are easy to fix, a cracked handle, bent blade, broken tip. A hole in the edge, is not easy to find. Owning three Moritaka knives, I've looked the edges over, and cannot detect an issue. If I were to send the knives to Dave, I wouldn't be surprised, if he found problems with all of them. Holes in edges are typically discovered after a year or two of sharpening. 

In the long run, I think it would be beneficial to a vendor to acknowledge the problem and then announce a two year warranty in case the knife develops a hole in the edge. Even with a hole, I doubt most people would return their knives. The vendor would be put into a good light. 

Jay


----------



## mhlee

mhlee said:


> My previous analysis and comment is my *own personal comment* (1) based on the fact that it's obvious (just based on that one picture) that Moritaka knives can have serious problems and what people have written about their experiences as far as trying to get these issues fixed and (2) my own personal *similar* experiences with Mark when I had issues with two different knives that had defects. Without going into details, it was a *very similar* experience to what this Moritaka buyer (and other Moritaka buyers) faced; Mark told me to contact the manufacturer directly to have the issues fixed and never offered a refund. And that's why I chimed in. Because I personally experienced something similar and it was extremely negative.
> 
> Chris. I don't know you and I have no ill will toward you. But, don't lump me in with others just because my tone is not positive. In fact, this is the first time that I've publicly written about this experience.
> 
> It's quite clear that you got better service and products from Mark than me and I'm happy for you that you did and did not have to go through what I went through. I did not.
> 
> Since you agree that we should all be able to write about positive or negative customer experiences, the next time someone comments about issues with Mark, I hope you will reserve judgment until the facts come out.



I will add that I eventually did receive a refund. 

I sent the knife back on my own and at my own expense (with no assurance of receiving a refund) and sent an e-mail identifying the problems with the knife, the responses I received when I initially provided notice of the issues, and demanding a refund. Only then, did I receive an offer for a refund.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Michael, may I ask what problems your particular knife had? Were they the same as Dave speaks of?


----------



## NO ChoP!

I believe it should be noted, said problems were in fact not with the thread titled namesake, Moritaka...

But, the fact you still had issues with retailer over QC, is disparaging.

I would still like to hear of someone's exact issues pertaining to Moritakas and the dealings of CKTG, or I will go on record once again to call out a 20 + page thread with no basis....


----------



## Lefty

I've tried to stay completely out of this, because mark has been nothing short of amazing to work with, in my experience and the same goes for Dave. I am definitely neutral in regards to the past issues, as I hope I can continue to be so.

However, in general, the retailer is responsible for dealing with issues regarding products they sell. I recently purchased a product that clearly was defective once I used it a few times. I contacted the retailer and the manufacturer, but made sure to let both parties know I had done so. The responses were very similar from both sides: The retailer was obligated to relplace my defective product (or money) and the manufacturer was to reimburse the seller of the goods. Long story short, the problem was quickly solved.

On another note, Mark has sold me some "seconds" for the Firehall, while making sure to drastically, and I mean drastically reduce the price AND make sure I knew exactly what the defect of each knife was. One of these knives ha a hole in the edge, which I was ok with. Let me tell you, a bunch of "regular guys" ha no idea there was an issue with the knife and it's currently "the best, and scariest friggin knife" any of them have used. I did put a little bit of time into it to remedy the problem, but realized it wasn't worth my time (sound familiar Dave?). I would have ha to lose at least an inch and a half of blade height to fix it. I didn't, there's a rise on the edge, towards the heel and it still does exactly what the average user wants it to do: cuts like a beast!

This problem is at least two-threefold - 
Moritaka became well known by us, because their knives fit into a void that we needed filled. Perhaps the quality never was there, but they had already been crowned "Affordable, Rustic King" by many, before any of the problems arose.
These issues are real, the average purchaser will never sharpen a knife enough to hit the issue, and even if he does, he will likely assume it was a result of user error and hide the problem, due to embarrassment.
We need to discover a new maker to fill the void that Moritaka will undoubtedly leave (if people quit purchasing their knives). I, honestly hope that the Yamawaku Scott and I are sending around will open some eyes to what else is available. I also think that the Tanaka I got to use for a week or so, thanks to Don, was one of the nicer cutters I've used (minus the flat grind in spots) and Tanaka should be crowned. 

It's kinda like when an athlete we all loved tests positive for steroids. We try to like them anywas, defend them, tell everyone that it can't be true, and eventually give in to the harsh realization that what we thought, never was. It sucks, but there are bigger and better athletes (makers) out there who got where they are legitimately.


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## NO ChoP!

I guess my issue is this retailer has a no questions asked, money back guarantee. Out of many thousands of moritakas sold, very few have been returned. No more than any other brand, infact. So where is the motivation for him to say these knives as a whole, have problems? I know many who are overly content with there's. Does this mean I don't know anything? Well that's offensive....


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## Lefty

Nope. I'd be hardpressed (if I could at all) to figure it out before it happened as well.


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## chinacats

NO ChoP! said:


> I guess my issue is this retailer has a no questions asked, money back guarantee. Out of many thousands of moritakas sold, very few have been returned. No more than any other brand, infact. So where is the motivation for him to say these knives as a whole, have problems? I know many who are overly content with there's. Does this mean I don't know anything? Well that's offensive....



Just curious as to how you know that there are no more than any other brand returned? Not trying to be rude, but when I returned a knife with horrible f&f (not moritaka) I was told that he hadn't seen any of these with problems...may have been true, but the knife was so bad that it shouldn't have been sold period, it should've been returned to manufacturer--along with a stern note that if anything like this showed up again they would be dropped...have a hard time believing that I got the only one that looked like ass...I think things just get passed on to the customer and if they complain, no problem, just give money back...most people don't know what they are buying and just assume the quality or lack thereof comes with the territory...I think Mark is a nice guy and stands behind his product, I also think that he gets the cheapest products that allow the most room for markup...more businessman than knife guy. All this said not to offend, but just to offer another viewpoint.

Edit just to add, there was no question return honored on this...


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## NO ChoP!

Absolutely, and I agree with you fully. Actually, I had a discussion pertaining to moritakas with Mark, when I received my Moritaka ks...

I'd like to note the many times I have read people who have said, " I asked Koki to handpick me a good one" pertaining to Masamotos from JCK....


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## NO ChoP!

Obviously, I am not familiar with your situation. The picture you've painted isn't a very nice one, and sucks you had to go through that. I think thus should be shared. It obviously bothered you, and your feelings should be relevant...

That being said...this thread is still about Moritaka, no?
Approaching 30 pages, and I've yet to hear one person claim to have dealt with said issues....


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## Dave Martell

I've had many customers who have been in similar situations with many different vendors and have shared with me that they don't (as a whole) complain to the retailers, make returns, and/or speak up on line (post) about problems they have encountered. I can't say why this is but my thoughts are that most people don't like to complain, get involved, or simply despise the notion of having to do so because it's a hassle or that they feel forced into dealing with a problem that they didn't create. Yes it's a "shame on them situation" for not taking the appropriate actions towards a remedy but that doesn't negate that the problems still existed and would be valid if brought into the light.


----------



## mhlee

NO ChoP! said:


> I believe it should be noted, said problems were in fact not with the thread titled namesake, Moritaka...
> 
> But, the fact you still had issues with retailer over QC, is disparaging.
> 
> I would still like to hear of someone's exact issues pertaining to Moritakas and the dealings of CKTG, or I will go on record once again to call out a 20 + page thread with no basis....





NO ChoP! said:


> I believe it should be noted, said problems were in fact not with the thread titled namesake, Moritaka...
> 
> But, the fact you still had issues with retailer over QC, is disparaging.
> 
> I would still like to hear of someone's exact issues pertaining to Moritakas and the dealings of CKTG, or I will go on record once again to call out a 20 + page thread with no basis....



Chris:

Watch your words. You're using words that have legal meaning. And you're wrong.

My comments that started this noted that this was a customer service issue. I related my own customer service issue. Did I ever say that my comment was specifically Moritaka related? No. But is it was directly related at very similar business practices by the same retailer with respect to *my* purchase from said retailer. 

We have threads that go off topic but stay related. I still feel that my comments were extremely relevant, given that I experienced the nearly identical response from the retailer that was identified. My comments are not disparaging toward Moritaka as I never said that I had a problem with a Moritaka. My comments were - as I previously mentioned multiple times in this thread - customer service related. Am I not allowed to post about a personal experience I had that was very similar to what was being talked about in connection with Moritakas? 

Also, my *personal experiences* that were referenced in my comments and in my private messages to you. These are factually based and even conservative in how I described them. So there is no *disparagement* as you characterize it. 

In fact, you telling me that my statements "is disparaging" is the definition of disparagement - you have no personal knowledge of any of the facts between my dealings with Mark, what happened, how rudely he spoke to me on two occasions and you are saying that what I wrote is "disparaging." And am I not allowed to discuss my own personal experiences? If such were the case, this forum would not exist. 

And your position seems to be that because no one is commenting directly here that these issues don't exist. That's like saying because no one has proven there's life on other planets, it doesn't exist, or because tunas are still being caught, they're not going to to extinct, or because no one that personally saw a dinosaur, there never were dinosaurs even though other people have evidence of dinosaurs. And that's fine. 

If you have any problem with what's being written about Moritakas, that's fine. But you have no basis to call my statements "disparaging" because I never said I had a bad Moritaka or anything to the extent that I've even personally seen a bad Moritaka. And I did not once say that I owned a Moritaka. But, my personal anecdotes and opinions are true, factually based experiences.


----------



## Dave Martell

Maybe we need to start a "Have you had a problem with XXXX retailer" thread?


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## bieniek

Dave, that nakiri from the famous photo. Was the photo taken of a new blade? Or after how long being used?


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## NO ChoP!

Reread it...I said your problems with quality control were disparaging. Not your comments. I was expressing sympathy towards you.


----------



## Dave Martell

bieniek said:


> Dave, that nakiri from the famous photo. Was the photo taken of a new blade? Or after how long being used?




The last one I took pictures of - crapOrific? That blade was used but never sharpened.


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## bieniek

This, yes? So it left the vendor with the edge that stright?


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## mhlee

NO ChoP! said:


> I guess my issue is this retailer has a no questions asked, money back guarantee. Out of many thousands of moritakas sold, very few have been returned. No more than any other brand, infact. So where is the motivation for him to say these knives as a whole, have problems? I know many who are overly content with there's. Does this mean I don't know anything? Well that's offensive....



First, a no questions asked, money back guarantee implies that even if a perfectly good item is returned without question, the purchase price will be refunded. I was not offered a refund even after notifying the retailer about two defects in the knife that I purchased. I only received a refund after I sent it back and demanded a refund. 

Second, just because "thousands" (according to you) have been sold, and very few have been returned, does not mean that the problem does not exist or, as you put it, no more than any other brand. And, how do you know that Moritakas have no more problems than any other brand? It seems that you are extrapolating a conclusion based on your limited sample. And that's fine. But it may be incorrect by a large margin, e.g. millions of Ford Explorers sold prior to 2000, several hundred had tire failures that resulted in severe accidents - more than other brands but still only a fraction of the millions of Explorers sold. Big problem? YOU BET.


----------



## maxim

I am also thinking that many people that have Moretaka and that problem, may think that the issue can be in they skills of sharpening


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## bprescot

NO ChoP! said:


> Approaching 30 pages, and I've yet to hear one person claim to have dealt with said issues....



Oh. Well then, my name is Ben Prescott, and I ... I have had a bum Moritaka. I've also had ones that are fine (or, at least, fine so far). The one I had an issue with was actually bought used, the two that look fine so far, one was from a retailer, and one was also used. The new one, however, I made sure I knew what the return policies were before purchase, and more on that in a moment. 

When you get down to it, Moritaka's response to this repeated issue (and to an extent, the retailer response as well) is a variation on that famous Zen koan: "If the edge has a hole, and the user doesn't notice, does it make a difference?" I bought a Moritaka from mark, and was quite up front with him about my concerns pre-purchase. So, I asked what his return policy was if I noticed any issues. His response satisfied me, in that essentially if I noticed anything wrong after purchase, use, and sharpening, I should simply return it for a replacement. 

From my perspective, that satisfied me, but I do see the point others are making, which is that people not frequenting this forum may not know when they DO encounter an issue. Some might never know, some might notice way down the road and never say anything. Even worse, some might take their new awesome knife to an unsuspecting sharpener and THEN notice the issue, and neither they nor sharpener would likely know that it's an issue to take up with the original retailer as the manufacturer has known issues. Instead the poor sharpener fellow loses out, either by having to pay for the knife, or by losing a customer that then bitches about the guy to other potential customer. I completely get that. 

Of course, I also know that a lot of people on this and other forums have never noticed any problems with their Moritakas. I would imagine that there are many MANY more among the general public that will never notice any problems with their Moritakas (especially since the dirty truth is that your average non-chef consumer won't ever bother to sharpen their knives, let alone do so properly, and therefore may NEVER expose any holes). 

So, given this full situation, is it sensible for the manufacturer to reform their processes to address the likely extreme minority of people that notice an issue (notice, that I didn't say "encounter"), or to instead simply accept that they will alienate a small section of their potential customer base?

On the retailer side, would it be better to not offer the product at all even though most will likely be quite happy with the knife, to trumpet to the world that there could be this issue and to notify them if there is, or to simply address those customers that report the issue? 

None of those approaches either from the manufacturer or retailer are intrinsically "wrong" (though I certainly have opinions of what I would do, and what I would like done). It just seems like we keep bringing the issue up about the problem with these knives, when really what people are objecting to the most is the manufacturer's and retailers business decision in the face of the underlying problem. 

I can only assume that from Moritaka's side, they've done the analysis and come to the conclusion that losing a certain segment of the market is less expensive than reforming their manufacturing process. 

And on the retailer side, I can only assume that retailers have concluded that while the manufacturer may have issues, most of their customers don't notice and will never care as they are so happy with the knife's comparative sharpness. In that situation, they think it better to simply refund or replace as problems are reported. 

If those decisions are what we disagree with, what do we think the alternatives should be? Isn't that the conversation we keep almost having?


----------



## NO ChoP!

I don't want peoples hard feelings towards a retailer to taint a products reputation. If there are legitimate issues with either, they should be addressed. 

Let's not continue towards any smear campaign, rather stick to relevant topics. Lack of customer service is absolutely relevant....


----------



## mhlee

NO ChoP! said:


> Reread it...I said your problems with quality control were disparaging. Not your comments. I was expressing sympathy towards you.



This is what you previously wrote:



NO ChoP! said:


> But, the fact you still had issues with retailer over QC, is disparaging.




You accused me of disparagement because I "had issues with retailer over QC." 

I absolutely had issues with the retailer over QC. If the retailer didn't think they were QC issues, that's fine. But to me, they were QC issues. And I'm not making stuff up. (Notably, I never saw this knife ever sold as a second on any forum or on the website.) 

How are my "problems with quality control" disparaging?


----------



## bprescot

mhlee said:


> How are my "problems with quality control" disparaging?



I think the point was that the issues you had with QC shouldn't have happened and are distressing, not that you were disparaging anyone, or that your comments were somehow inappropriate. At least, that's how I read it. I figured it was just a wrong word choice.


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## NO ChoP!

Duplicate...


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## NO ChoP!

It was disparaging to ME that you had to undergo the stated issues. Jeez!!!!

Maybe I should have used a synonym such as discouraging....


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## mhlee

That would have been a much better choice and would have avoided most of my responses. Thanks.


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## Dave Martell

bieniek said:


> This, yes? So it left the vendor with the edge that stright?




Yes that's my understanding of the situation.


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## bieniek

Ok, thanks. 

Ive never had an internet business selling knives, that is why i ask, is it possible that a certain vendor just received an order[for nakiri moritaka], went to store, picked up a box signed "nakiri" from moritaka section, packed it without looking inside the box[is the knife there or something maybe rats eaten half-a-handle] and posted it to the buyer?

How could you not notice that??!!


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## NO ChoP!

Glad we're cleared up...

I need to stop typing from my phone, because I often don't read what I type...


----------



## NO ChoP!

By the way, the knife in that photo is a POS, and should be thrown in the trash...lol


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## Dave Martell

bieniek said:


> Ok, thanks.
> 
> Ive never had an internet business selling knives, that is why i ask, is it possible that a certain vendor just received an order[for nakiri moritaka], went to store, picked up a box signed "nakiri" from moritaka section, packed it without looking inside the box[is the knife there or something maybe rats eaten half-a-handle] and posted it to the buyer?
> 
> How could you not notice that??!!




This subject has come up many many many times over the years. The consensus has been that the idea that a retailer would send out a knife without looking at it first is absurd. Now the next question we come to is if that even if they do inspect a knife before shipping, are they knowledgeable in what they're looking at to acknowledge a problem, meaning do they have enough experience to see issues? Then we follow that with do they care even if they do?


----------



## bprescot

Dave Martell said:


> The consensus has been that the idea that a retailer would send out a knife without looking at it first is absurd.



Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here. I think the notion that a retailer above a certain size has even the CAPACITY to inspect every product they sell is unrealistic. Best Buy doesn't open up every single one of their products to check, nor do any of the other big retailers. I would also bet (though I could be wrong) that even extraordinarily reputable small sellers don't hand inspect all of their inventory before shipping. Not to pick, but when you were selling Arashiyamas or Takenokos, did you inspect every single one of them before shipping, Dave? I'm guessing not, though I could be wrong, because the reputation those stones have is so strong. 

Personally, I think a more fair criticism would be when a retailer KNOWS that certain manufacturers have issues and don't take steps to do some additional QC before shipping, _on those specific_ products.


----------



## clayton

I might be misinformed here, but I really don't see what would be stopping cktg from just dropping Moritaka as a brand if they believed there was an issue. All they would need to do is explain the situation and stop stocking them. No one would buy Moritakas and everyone would be something else instead. They stock plenty of other knives to make up for a lack of having Moritakas. I would understand if they chose to continue selling Moritakas despite alleged issues if it was the only knife line they carried, but that is not the case

In addition, a while back I was considering buying a Moritaka and addressed my concerns with Mark. He responded that if I ever had such an issue with it he would take it back. I still did not buy one, but was okay with that response.


----------



## Dave Martell

bprescot said:


> Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here. I think the notion that a retailer above a certain size has even the CAPACITY to inspect every product they sell is unrealistic. Best Buy doesn't open up every single one of their products to check, nor do any of the other big retailers. I would also bet (though I could be wrong) that even extraordinarily reputable small sellers don't hand inspect all of their inventory before shipping. Not to pick, but when you were selling Arashiyamas or Takenokos, did you inspect every single one of them before shipping, Dave? I'm guessing not, though I could be wrong, because the reputation those stones have is so strong.
> 
> Personally, I think a more fair criticism would be when a retailer KNOWS that certain manufacturers have issues and don't take steps to do some additional QC before shipping, _on those specific_ products.




Ha I knew I should've drop in the Amazon disclaimer into my statement. 

yeah it's unrealistic for a large scale retailer to do inspections at shipment, I get that, but it's not in my opinion for the small time knife dealers that we're talking about here to do just that and I'd state that it should be expected. 

Oh yeah I definitely always have and always will expect each and everything that I sell. I can't claim that I inspected things that can't be opened without messing up packaging (like the Beston 500x) but where I can I do. I'm sure even though I do this I've still missed something here or there though - that's human. I'd bet that if I was selling a known problem item (like a Moritaka) that I'd be all over those things though.


----------



## Dave Martell

clayton said:


> I might be misinformed here, but I really don't see what would be stopping XXXX from just dropping Moritaka as a brand if they believed there was an issue. All they would need to do is explain the situation and stop stocking them. No one would buy Moritakas and everyone would be something else instead. They stock plenty of other knives to make up for a lack of having Moritakas. I would understand if they chose to continue selling Moritakas despite alleged issues if it was the only knife line they carried, but that is not the case




Morals?


----------



## maxim

And thats why you should choose small retailer instead of big  
I also check my Beston before shipping it out. I have paranoia if i ship somthing that i did not check :scared4:


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## bprescot

maxim said:


> And thats why you should choose small retailer instead of big
> I also check my Beston before shipping it out



Haha. Well, that'll teach me. Hey, I said that I could be wrong!


----------



## Dave Martell

NO ChoP! said:


> I don't want peoples hard feelings towards a retailer to taint a products reputation. If there are legitimate issues with either, they should be addressed.
> 
> Let's not continue towards any smear campaign, rather stick to relevant topics. Lack of customer service is absolutely relevant....




I agree here. I say this because even though I don't care for someone I still want the truth being said.

Also, for myself, I started my Moritaka mission way before CKTG even heard of them so I'm not singling them out in anyway, they're just one piece of the puzzle, a piece that I'm not focused at all on personally although I'm sure that it's hard for people to believe that based on past experience.

My #1 issue here is that people stop getting screwed - period!

My hope is that retailers hearing of these problems will address the issue with Moritaka and that Moritaka will listen and correct as necessary. If they don't then my hope is that retailers will put financial incentive behind their concerns that will motivate Moritaka to comply. The retailers hold a lot of power in this situation, they can make this right.


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## maxim

No you are not wrong  i see how big retailers dont check what they send out, also thats why *sometimes* they prices are cheaper, they use less of they time ! 
I have still not found one single Beston that was bad, but i cant see why i should not check them. It gives peaceful mind


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## Dave Martell

Just for the hell of it, regarding customer service options for retailers.....


Option #1 - The Legal Obligation

We offer a money back guarantee if you ask for it.



Option #2 - The Moral Obligation

We will not sell products that are knowingly defective or have the propensity for defect. 



Which option are you more comfortable with? Me, I like both.


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## Salty dog

The restaurant down the street does a screaming business. They sell ill prepared low quality food at a low price. But Fred can still take Doris out on a Saturday night and still be able to enjoy it and afford it.

Do I complain? No, it's just a fact of life. Their customers are satisfied. Mine don't eat there.

I just concentrate on what I do.


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## bprescot

Dave Martell said:


> My hope is that retailers hearing of these problems will address the issue with Moritaka and that Moritaka will listen and correct as necessary.



This will never happen. Moreover, if you'll allow me to get my forum-troll on for a moment, I don't think they should. It seems obvious that they are doing just fine financially, and it seems like they are in the business of moving a large quantities of knives. They aren't craftsman creations, but neither are they stamped. They are priced within reach of a large number of consumers, and they will always be able to find more customers at that price point and for that half-way commodity/artisan product. And they are doing well right now. So, from a business perspective, why should they change? If slowing the process produces less volume and increases the price, putting them in a different league of knives, why should they do that, if only a small number of people are upset with their product? The only reason I could think of would be due to personal feelings of pride and ownership of my products, but I don't think that's the kind of business they are necessarily. I'm guessing, as I've never met the makers and have only spoken with Aoki twice, but that's the feeling I get.



Dave Martell said:


> If they don't then my hope is that retailers will put financial incentive behind their concerns that will motivate Moritaka to comply. The retailers hold a lot of power in this situation, they can make this right.



What is "right"? As long as they re-imburse or replace for the people that have an issue, making it as hassle free as possible, couldn't that be considered making it "right"? This isn't a case of a retailer knowingly selling a product with a life-threatening defect. This is a seller selling a product that might have a defect that most people won't notice. I guarantee you that despite learning quite a bit about knives vicariously (for which I'm eternally grateful) my wife wouldn't have noticed the hole in my problem-moritaka. For her, she would have thought that the knife was simply DAMN sharp (which it was) and cool looking. Couldn't the retailer continue to sell the product while STILL pressing the manufacturer and have that be "right"?


Editor's Note: Post is largely for discussion purposes only. If it were my store, I would probably not sell the knives, and if it were my factory, I'd try to isolate and resolve the issue. But just because I'd choose the resolution, doesn't mean it's the only right one...


----------



## dav

I brought 2 Moritaka's before I knew of the extent of the "problem" I love the look of them and they perform very well. I may well find down the line that issues arise (I hope not!) and I have had a straight edge to both and at the moment things are OK. I must admit the Kuro-uchi finished petty is much rougher and "rustic" than the supreme damascus gyuto I brought which is a nice knife to look at and use and which exhibits very good fit and finish - I did pay $330 plus post and tax over $400 (I hear the gasps lol) and would hope I've purchased a quality product if not I'm not the type to keep quite lol I will most likely try a Zakuri and Carter and may risk another Moritaka as I do like the profiles and appearance of some of their knives.

I don't know the depth of feeling towards C K T G on here but it does seem a shame that things have gone the way they have and that people [email protected] forgive and forget "for the greater good" as it seems the knife community is the worse for this?


----------



## Mucho Bocho

Something ironic occurred to me when viewing one of Dave martell's sharpening videos. The very knife that prompted him to start this thread (my 165 Moritaka nakiri), is the same knife he made his sharpening video's with. Is that not the very definition of schizophrenia?

So, Moritaka that has been making knives for over three hundred years, multiple generations, has all of a sudden, decided that it was a good idea to lower their quality. Doesn't seem like a very logical business model.


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## Dave Martell

Mucho Bocho said:


> Something ironic occurred to me when viewing one of Dave martell's sharpening videos. The very knife that prompted him to start this thread (my 165 Moritaka nakiri), is the same knife he made his sharpening video's with. Is that not the very definition of schizophrenia?




I think that was a Takeda nakiri


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## bprescot

Dave Martell said:


> I think that was a Takeda nakiri



Yeah, I was about to post the same.


----------



## dav

Mucho Bocho these were my thoughts around the fact that Moritaka has been a well regarded name and seem to have gone down the pan?? I must admit I've done a little research and the previous generation Moritaka was a regarded smith was he not trained by one of the greatest swordsmiths, whats happened lol Jon are youa able to elaborate as it seems they aren't the farming imlement maker which is discussed on here or not solely resigned to the manufacture of these implements. Or maybe some of the sources such as the "reliable" Japanese swordsmith articles/accounts I've come across are inaccurate.

And for the record I don't see the problem with well made traditional tools ( many on here make fun of producers of farming implements) my Gransfors Bruks axes are for me more useful and as beautiful as any knife and are hand forged also.


----------



## clayton

dav said:


> And for the record I don't see the problem with well made traditional tools ( many on here make fun of producers of farming implements) my Gransfors Bruks axes are for me more useful and as beautiful as any knife and are hand forged also.



+1 I have a GB hatchet. It is amazing.


----------



## NO ChoP!

If extra measures were taken, and the price reflected such, would we buy a Moritaka over a Takeda at like price points? Interesting notion to ponder....


----------



## bluntcut

From another angle...

The Moritaka nakiri pictured looks like a knife came from the b/blem bin because the bevel seem well-done albeit wavy smooth. Perhaps, over-grind was to remove cladding black gaps on bevel. To grind that many knives, the maker probably employed a grinding template, which prevent over-grind. Unless the over-grind was done on purpose.


----------



## Namaxy

I find myself agreeing with Salty again. Earlier I posted on the frustration of this subject - While my message may have not been clear, In essense I was defending the right of anyone to post either a positive or negative review of any given product and/or retailer, without getting caught up in the politics of the forums. Fair enough...but there is also the notion of not beating a dead horse.

My sense is we're not going to punish an e-tailer enough through any amount of forum flames to get them to change. They are what they are as Salty points out.....We're informed consumers...we can vote with our wallets.

I hope this doesn't come accross as inconsistent. I fully support Dave's customers and people like Mhlee gtting their proper refund/recourse. By the same token, I think getting everyone to agree retailer X is a ****, or getting retailer X to change their policy is aiming too high. Just pick retailer Y in the future.


----------



## ifor

I once went to a resto and had some bad food, I tried to tell the owner about it but he threw me out instead. My friend asked me why I would want to improve this resto if the they didn't want to listen to the customers. 

These companies will not last if they continue to do things there way. Or they have found their niche and don't want to change or improve it.


----------



## tk59

ifor said:


> ...These companies will not last if they continue to do things there way...


I think you're giving consumers too much credit. Anyway, probably 99% of the masses buy Henckels, Wusthof and maybe Forschner. The other 1% buy Shun. Moritaka is probably nothing to a mainstream retailer.


----------



## VoodooMajik

I'm a few pages behind now, but I like how this was phrased. Some people care and some people don't. Doesn't matter what you are talking about or where it applies. I'm happy I read this thread, because I almost bought one. I would notice once this issue became evident down the road. I would be aggravated. I expect flaws from something like Tojiro. If I spend $200 on something knowing it's mid grade. It should still do it's ******* job.

Long story short, Thank you for furthering my ability to make educated purchases. 



Salty dog said:


> The restaurant down the street does a screaming business. They sell ill prepared low quality food at a low price. But Fred can still take Doris out on a Saturday night and still be able to enjoy it and afford it.
> 
> Do I complain? No, it's just a fact of life. Their customers are satisfied. Mine don't eat there.
> 
> I just concentrate on what I do.


----------



## maxim

Salty dog said:


> The restaurant down the street does a screaming business. They sell ill prepared low quality food at a low price. But Fred can still take Doris out on a Saturday night and still be able to enjoy it and afford it.
> 
> Do I complain? No, it's just a fact of life. Their customers are satisfied. Mine don't eat there.
> 
> I just concentrate on what I do.



lus1: on that ! 
But i think Daves problem is not other restaurant, but the food his costumers bring from that restaurant to his  
And ask him to make it taste better.


----------



## ecchef

:goodpost: That's a friggin' great analogy Maxim.


----------



## steeley

maxim said:


> lus1: on that !
> But i think Daves problem is not other restaurant, but the food his costumers bring from that restaurant to his
> And ask him to make it taste better.



=+++ 1


----------



## VoodooMajik

Perfect analogy... 



maxim said:


> lus1: on that !
> But i think Daves problem is not other restaurant, but the food his costumers bring from that restaurant to his
> And ask him to make it taste better.


----------



## Lefty

VoodooMajik said:


> I'm a few pages behind now, but I like how this was phrased. Some people care and some people don't. Doesn't matter what you are talking about or where it applies. I'm happy I read this thread, because I almost bought one. I would notice once this issue became evident down the road. I would be aggravated. I expect flaws from something like Tojiro. If I spend $200 on something knowing it's mid grade. It should still do it's ******* job.
> 
> Long story short, Thank you for furthering my ability to make educated purchases.



The pricing on many Moritakas is right there, just above Tojiro DPs, the last I looked. For the fun of exploring this option, if you could get a knife that was in this price range an it gave you great performance for two years of abuse/service, and then crapped out (the hole came through), would you still buy the knife? Arguably, that's a better "bang for the buck" than many knives we buy that end up getting broken/stolen/pushed into a drawer, isn't it? 
I think with this way of thinking, it's safe to call a Moritaka a Hyundai Accent. They look pretty good, are affordable, but we realize it's just going to hold us over until we can get the BMW. However, in the meantime, it's actually a pretty solid little performer with a low initial investment.
If you are curious, I think I drive a Masamoto KS with an ebony handle and dark, two tone buffalo ferrule.


----------



## Dusty

Based on that analogy, I drive a tojiro dp gyuto that has been ground down over many years to make a short suji and is desperate need of some thinning. :O


----------



## NO ChoP!

My car analogy knife would be nicer than my real knives....but that's a work in progress.

Do twenty inch rims with p-zeros equal a custom handle with mammoth ivory?


----------



## Dave Martell

I was just sent this copy of a post made by my old friend Ken. It was posted sometime today on another forum. It's relevance here is that he's addressing the Moritaka issue. 



> *Post subject: Hand forged knives - what to expect**
> 
> 
> Ken123 wrote....*
> 
> Well this is my take on the subject. I'm writing this because of the incredible amount of disinformation out there, some quite malicious.
> 
> I'll define a hand forged knife as a knife that is entirely made by hand, shaped by hammer blows. The hammer blows can be delivered by a second person, with the force applied and location of each hit determined by the knifemaker. It is typically done by the apprentice or even in some instances by the wife of the knifemaker (yikes, what a job). In more modern times, this hammering is usually replaced by a motorized hammer, with the hammer blows controlled by the knifemaker for force, frequency and location. This is highly skilled labor with EACH hammer blow having an effect that cannot be 'taken back'. This is done in conjunction with a sequence of reheating steps typically with an open faced kiln. The metal is shaped from steel barstock and often the steel core is folded into the knife much like the meat in a pita sandwich. All the while the knife is getting tapered in thickness from the spine towards the tip AND simultaneously from the spine towards the edge. Each hammer hit has an effect and this requires great hand skill and concentration controlling heat, force and timing in a symphony of moves. It is a skill often passed down through generations as a family business. As the metal is drawn thinner and thinner by hammer blows, the knife begins to emerge from the metal as a distinct shape. This is just the beginning , with straightening, tuning and multiple operations even before grinding and shaping the output into what becomes a knife. This whole process influences the performance of the knife, from the period of time for 'resting' and so forth until the finished result emerges, with the handle put on almost as an afterthought. In some instances the firescale is ground off. In other instances this firescale is left on, acting as a somewhat nonstick finish. This is termed a kuroichi finish. This style of knife has been around for centuries in Japan and is considered a typical knife that Japanese use.
> 
> It is not, by it's very nature designed to be perfectly formed like something from a CNC machine. If you want this level of perfect shaping, this is not the knife you want. Get a Shun or a mass produced factory knife. But because it is rustic, don't be misled into thinking that it is not a high performance knife. Hand forged knives with their 2 dimensional taper are some of the highest performing knives. They are light, thin and can take an incredible edge. They are some of the best performing knives I own and sharpen. Moritaka and Takeda are two examples of this genre or style of knife. Also Murray Carter, a traditional Japanese technique bladesmith and Watanabe are additional examples. If you were to compare them to cuisines, these are country style knives and excellent ones at that. More precisely made knives are also made in Japan from mass produced Kiya knives, high end exotic custom knives like the ******** knives and even high end medium mass produced knives like the Nenox knives.
> 
> So let's focus on the hammer blows for a second. Yes some will land a bit harder than others and yes the surface may vary a bit in depth - especially so as one approaches the edge where more hammer blows have been made to maximally thin this area. So you should expect some irregularity here. This isn't unique at all to just this style of knife. Many yanagis have a concave front bevel since they are ground out on a large wheel. Also kamasori or Japanese razors. Typically, you don't try to flatten these knives completely but gradually over a number of sharpenings. The tradeoff is exceptionally thin knives that take a superb edge. So too with these hand forged knives you need not succumb to insisting on grinding the blade completely flat immediately. Indeed the concavity behind the edge allows an even thinner profile, perhaps an intentional advantage. Eventually as you transition from the initial edge shaping on a large wheel to repeated sharpening on a bench stone you will flatten the edges more, but there really is no rush here.
> 
> Now some knife sharpeners, even a few so called experts who have never even been to Japan and really lack a cultural grasp of the topic, may claim that these knives don't meet their standards and have trouble sharpening them too. This represents both an extreme level of arrogance and a fundamental misunderstanding of Japanese culture. It is akin to going to a foreign country and insisting that everyone speak to them in English and being annoyed when they can't comply. You know the type.
> 
> Japanese have a very fundamentally different conception of beauty, especially so in their crafts. A perfectly formed teacup is a mass produced item and has minimal value. A hand crafted teacup, even and especially so with say a thumb print in the glazing is looked upon for its uniqueness and this imperfection is considered unique and a mark of beauty. Beauty is seen in imperfection. This is fundamental to understanding the Japanese psyche. Think of the beauty mark on Cindy Crawford's face. There is a story of a tea ceremony master who asked his apprentice to clean up the garden surrounding the tea room. He did so and announced it to the master. The master said it wasn't good enough. The apprentice went out and worked even harder. This happened several times. Finally after arranging each leaf in the garden to perfection he became exasperated with his sensei and exclaimed he could do no more. The master then went out to the garden, grabbed some leaves and casually threw them around in disorder, making a very natural looking setting and said that now it was in order. His idea of beauty was not at all a structured one but one in harmony with the natural order. Lesson learned. In their (Japanese) flower arranging art, you will not see a symmetric arrangement but rather asymmetry and often the flower arrangement is purposely not perfectly centered. Even their knives are often not symmetric. This goes very deep into their thought processes and their view of the world. We, as people who appreciate their craft really need to accept this rather than insisting that Japanese make knives to American tastes. Again if this is what you want, consider a mass produced knife with American sensibilities and missing out on something really special.
> 
> In short, these high performance knives should be accepted on their own terms as each being unique high performance tools, closely in touch with the hand of it's maker, not a cookie cutter knife. Some makers who only recently began to know how to cut out a knife from a blank or just get a blank handed to them to sharpen, put a handle on it and grind it down just don't get this concept. They don't even do their own heat treating, having just recently graduated from making cardboard knives. They compare themselves to families of knifemakers spanning generations of tradition. Supreme arrogance and cultural ignorance. Some knifemakers such as Mark have a much broader understanding of what a hand forged knife is all about and bring these knives to us to enjoy this style of knife with it's sense of history in it's construction.
> 
> I hope this perspective on knives from Moritaka, Takeda, etc helps to give a sense of appreciation to this style of craftsmanship.
> 
> ---
> Ken


----------



## Benuser

I've noticed a bitter tone with your former friend. When i read it on that forum I wondered about it.
To reproduce it here is probably the way to go.


----------



## SpikeC

Mark is a knife maker? With an understanding of forging?


----------



## mhlee

"Many yanagis have a concave front bevel since they are ground out on a large wheel." Really? I'm pretty sure that concave front bevel is called an "overgrind." 

"Now some knife sharpeners, even a few so called experts who have never even been to Japan and really lack a cultural grasp of the topic, may claim that these knives don't meet their standards and have trouble sharpening them too. This represents both an extreme level of arrogance and a fundamental misunderstanding of Japanese culture. It is akin to going to a foreign country and insisting that everyone speak to them in English and being annoyed when they can't comply. You know the type." 

Ken's mispronunciation of almost every single Japanese word I've ever heard him say certainly doesn't reflect that he has an understanding of Japanese language or culture. "New - ba - tom - uh." uke:

I guess since knives like Suisin, Gesshin Hide and other more expensive knives don't have these marks, I guess they're not as "Japanese" as Moritakas. :beatinghead:

Guys, you better return those almost perfect Shigefusas. They're just not Japanese.


----------



## Vertigo

It's good to know overgrinds are really just wabi-sabi.


----------



## clayton

I understand what he is trying to say but if the alleged overgrind issue is as bad as shown in this thread then Ken's post misses the point for me.

Ain't nothing wabi-sabi about accordion cuts. I am pretty sure they are considered annoying even in Japanese culture.

(Vertigo, HA! Did not see your above post before I submitted this one)

Just like that handmade cup would suck if it had a hole in the bottom.


----------



## NO ChoP!

All that statement did was acknowledge a problem.....no solutions.


----------



## GlassEye

"high end exotic custom knives like the ******** knives and even..."

" Some knifemakers such as Mark have a much broader understanding of what a hand forged knife is all about..."

A couple of my favorite parts of that. It is unfortunate that some may be led to believe this disinformation.


----------



## sw2geeks

Shoot, I was hoping this thread had died out... I like everybody on both sides of this and it got nasty in the old forum.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Yes, its the children who get hurt the most from divorce....


----------



## ecchef

&#8220;Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich starker.&#8221;


----------



## mhlee

NO ChoP! said:


> All that statement did was acknowledge a problem.....no solutions.



I beg to differ. A solution was offered. Accept them as they are.

"In short, these high performance knives should be accepted on their own terms as each being unique high performance tools, closely in touch with the hand of it's maker, not a cookie cutter knife."


----------



## NO ChoP!

Touche'....


----------



## Namaxy

mhlee said:


> I beg to differ. A solution was offered. Accept them as they are.
> 
> "In short, these high performance knives should be accepted on their own terms as each being unique high performance tools, closely in touch with the hand of it's maker, not a cookie cutter knife."



The position taken by Ken and Mark is utterly ridiculous. We're told the knives 'should be accepted on their own terms'. Ie we're not to question the fit, finish or performance. We're being lectured about how they are made. We're told that if we only sharpen them, and don't make them ourselves that we're disqualified from having an opinion. We're told that if we don't spend time in the country of origin, once again we're disqualified from having an opinion. This theme, that the maker is right, and that if the customer doesn't like it he must not understand it, just doesn't ring consistent with most other areas of society today.

On these very forums, their is a coffee thread that references a mnfr who takes back and refurbs grinders if a defect is found. If I buy a $3000 hand made suit, and find something wrong with it, the seller doesn't tell me to pound sand because I don't knit suits myself and haven't been to Italy. They do everything they can to fix the problem. Pick a category......from high end retail like guitars, cars, audio.......to hand made artisan items like clothing, furniture, jewelry....if the customer isn't satisfied the seller makes it right. Of course I'm talking about reasonable people with reasonable issues...I'm not talking the extreme cases where someone complains no matter what. And of course, I'm also against biased piling on of negative opinions.....the issue has to be real and legitimate.

So the question is...what exempts knifemakers, and the retailers that represent them from this standard of care?


----------



## Wagstaff

gotta be kidding. If a hole in the edge is a traditional feature that we should celebrate.... how come it's only AFTER learning to sharpen and see the overgrind that it bothers me? As a newb I can't even see an issue. So the more I know the less I appreciate Ancient Wizdom Familycraft Apprenticeceship Wabi-Sabi Imperfectionism Artistry? 

And I read Tanizaki's "In Praise of Shadows" when in high school. Attended tea ceremonies, too. I don't need a lesson in Japanese aesthetics to appreciate a flawed knife. That's some seriously condescending chit.


----------



## apicius9

ecchef said:


> &#8220;Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich starker.&#8221;



+1 

Stefan


----------



## add

Dave Martell said:


> I was just sent this copy of a post made by my old friend Ken. It was posted sometime today on another forum. It's relevance here is that he's addressing the Moritaka issue.



Post subject: Hand forged knives - what to expect


Ken123 wrote....

_"Well this is my take on the subject. I'm writing this because of the incredible amount of disinformation out there, some quite malicious...

*Really, it's just the hammer's fault...*

I hope this perspective on knives from Moritaka, Takeda, etc helps to give a sense of appreciation to this style of craftsmanship."

---
Ken
_


----------



## SpikeC

Takeda seems to be able to make it work. If they have a similar outward appearance, they must be the same, no?


----------



## Benuser

As an outsider in this discussion I would say: I can live with the irregulaties of a French carbon's spine. An overgrind issue has to be responded to.


----------



## richinva

I don't have a dog in this contest, but I'm still confused. 

"By: Chris (No ChoP!)
Milwaukee
I put this knife in a head to head battle with a slew of other gyutos including a Carter; all sharpened the same; It was by far the best cutter of the bunch. The huge bevel,hard AS steel,and awesome grind add up to a super impressive performer. This new profile is agile and versatile. My Moritakas are quickly becoming my favorite go-tos."

What happened?


----------



## Dave Martell

He never disappoints, Ken's always good for a laugh


----------



## labor of love

richinva said:


> I don't have a dog in this contest, but I'm still confused.
> 
> "By: Chris (No ChoP!)
> Milwaukee
> I put this knife in a head to head battle with a slew of other gyutos including a Carter; all sharpened the same; It was by far the best cutter of the bunch. The huge bevel,hard AS steel,and awesome grind add up to a super impressive performer. This new profile is agile and versatile. My Moritakas are quickly becoming my favorite go-to&#8217;s."
> 
> What happened?


nothing happened. No chop likes his Moritakas. I also have the Moritaka KS clone and I like it also.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Yes, I've never disputed liking my Moritaka. In fact, I have two, and love them both.


----------



## NO ChoP!

I think if you look back in this thread, as well as others, you will see I'm often the lone advocate....


----------



## chinacats

NO ChoP! said:


> I think if you look back in this thread, as well as others, you will see I'm often the lone advocate....



Yes, but you advocate in a legit personal experience kind of way--and I'm sure Moritaka has made some good knives along with the bad ones. Ken's post as quoted somewhere above is just some condescending bs...*&^% him! I know very little, other than having seen some of his sharpening vid's and he is so full of himself I can't stand listening or watching...makes me think everything he says is some made up crap just to hear himself talk...


----------



## NO ChoP!

Moritaka has made some awesome knives. As I've mentioned, I love mine. That being said, even I'm not sure if I'd buy another.....
I think damage control is needed, and Kens post was dismissive.

By the way, I'm a chef and I've barely traveled outside the midwest, let alone to Europe....does this make me a hack???


----------



## sw2geeks

I like Dave and I like my Moritakas. 

But this thread is making my head hurt, like watching a train wreck slowly unfold, I can't stop checking it out when it shows up in the what's new. But the irony is there is nothing new in the post from what happened in the old forum from what I can tell.

When the thread started to die out a quota from the old forum were inserted to keep it going, which I find odd.

I know, I just need to stop looking, but it is hard - especially if you like Moritakas, and some of the negative talk is about owners like me who like them. You want to see what is being said about you and the knives you like.

Whoops, does this put me on a side? Like I said, I like Dave and my Moritakas.


----------



## apicius9

AFAIR, Ken is a friend of the Moritakas and has visited them. I still don't like being patronized, but I can see why he would be a bit biased and defensive, I would probabaly feel the same way if they were friends of mine. Not sure it is necessary to mix up factional and personal levels here and 'attack' individuals or classify whole groups of people based on their attitudes toward one single producer/seller. 

As for the Moritaka knives, I had a few that I sold and they had looked fine to me (sold for other reasons, obviously), and I am keeping one I really like. I would just assume that their quota of 'errors' might be a bit higher, but I would not expect everything from them to be bad. It can just be a gamble and how it is handled if you lose seems to be sub-optimal. 

Stefan


----------



## mr drinky

sw2geeks said:


> this thread is making my head hurt...



First of all, when sw2geeks and stefan chime in like this, this is the time (in my book) to say "I am done." I trust Dave's opinion on sharpening and I will always watch for overgrinds no matter what the brand of knife. 

As for Ken's response, this is a typical 'over' response (as opposed to 'over'grind). I can see why he might make certain points, but every knifemaker is susceptible to overgrinding. Ask Devin, Burke, or anyone else if they ever overground a knife. That 'hammer-is-what-hammer-does' explanation is rather insulting to knifemakers and users. If Devin, Haas, Marr, Rodrigue, Del, Burke, Marko, Mario, Martell or anyone did an overgrind that affected knife performance, we would expect a negative response, and they would likely try to remedy the issue. To give Moritaka a free ride because of the 'hammer' and 'tradition' is misguided IMO.

Before KnifeForums blew up, I asked Dave to sharpen one of my knives with an overgrind, and he flatly said 'no' and explained why he wouldn't do it -- I thought that was pretty honest of him and respected this decision. It was not a Moritaka but a custom maker on both forums. He apologized but refused the work, and it had nothing to do with Ken, CKTG, or Moritaka. Dave understands the difficulty of sharpening a knife with an overgrind, and this needs to be recognized. BUT is this a problem with all moritakas? Probably not. Is it a problem in general: yes.

Just wait until you have a knife with an overgrind and see how you feel. 

k.


----------



## sachem allison

I think we're done here.


----------



## Dave Martell

It doesn't matter what Ken or anyone else says to deflect attention away from the matter at hand because the matter at hand will remain as long as these knives are sold at this level of quality that we're seeing. 

Fact - if the problems disappear from Moritaka knives then so will the talk too.


----------



## jaybett

The appeal of Moritaka and Takeda was getting a great cutting knife, at a low price. The trade off was a rough fit and finish, and other defects. As prices have risen, it gets harder and harder to brush off, the roughness of the knives. 

Part of the problem is the vendor is not setting reasonable expectations for these knives, especially the Moritakas. They are priced at a point that makes them attractive to new users. While these knives are better suited to experienced users, who can work around the issues. 

Another part of the problem is Ken's excusing the roughness of these knives as a form of Wabi-Sabi. He has also suggested, in his posts, that people who have an issues with these knives are not precise sharpeners. Whatever that means. 

I think I understand, Dave's unwillingness to sharpen an overground knife. If the problem appears while he is sharpening the knife, then he is on the hook to replace it. 

How bad is it, if a knife has a hole in it? It isn't something I want to happen. If it does though, I don't see myself throwing the knife out. Unless it happens on a slicer, it seems like it would be a minor annoyance. 

Jay


----------



## Dave Martell

jaybett said:


> How bad is it, if a knife has a hole in it? It isn't something I want to happen. If it does though, I don't see myself throwing the knife out. Unless it happens on a slicer, it seems like it would be a minor annoyance.





Hi Jay, I'll take a stab and answer this from my perspective, from what I've seen anyway. remember though, I'm only commenting on what I've actually worked on (sharpened), most I rejected without ever sharpening (I obviously do that so that I won't get burnt again) but most (not all though) of those are simply indicating the potential for a problem during sharpening although many are clearly problematic.

So what happens is that the bevels are ground down too close (and too heavily) towards the edge - this is the overgrind. The hole on the edge can come from Moritaka OTB (like we saw on the nakiri above) or it can be brought on by sharpening up into the blade height (as is natural to do as we sharpen). The hidden overgrind is the tricky situation because it often doesn't show but very little at first, then a little more, then more, and then wham the edge disaapears in this section and this happens (as we sharpen) because there is simply no steel left up above the cutting edge - Moritaka removes too much here and as we all know you can remove more steel but you can't put any back on. The end result shows itself in the food prep, the food will be cleanly cut in some sections and not in others (this is the accordion effect) because some sections (the holes) don't make contact with the cutting board. 

The fix for this condition is only afforded at the factory level at the time of production. The maker needs to re-think the way that they approach the cutting edge with the hammer but more so with the grinding wheel. I say the grinding wheel is what's causing the most damage because Moritakas aren't very thin knives above the ground in bevels indicating that they are left thick from the forging stage and then have the bevels ground on thin after the fact. It's my opinion that the person doing the heavy wheel grinding is the cause of these holes being created.


----------



## dav

So Dave I'm guessing then that they have a little production line type thing going on then so it might be that one of the Moritaka's does the forging and shaping ?? ( sorry I know very little about the manufacturing sequence) and then the grinding/sharpening is possibly left to an apprentice/semi skilled (or not) worker? As I've said before the supreme Damascus gyuto I have is well made and the finish/grind is to my eyes fine (I've had a square/straight edge all over it lol). Could it be that these more expensive knives are made to a bit higher spec and/or ground/sharpened accordingly. Unless you've seen lots of faults in this line too?

I must admit even after these posts and the obvious problems I'm still attracted to Moritaka knives, I've looked at the other similar knives and will purchase a takeda. Tanaka's aren't always that easy to come by (kurouchi) and it seems can have problems and I've looked at the Zakuri stocked by JKI but to be honest don't find Octagonal handles at all comfortable (the Rosewood D shaped handles on the Moritaka's I have fit perfectly and are another reason for buying), and tbh I really don't like the huge Zakuri logo etched into the knives blades it totally spoils the appearance for me (I know a bit shallow lol).


----------



## VoodooMajik

I hear what you are saying. That's why I'd like to research enough to buy a Honda Civic and drive it for 5 years rather then 2. I wouldn't purchase a knife that will develop a hole in the edge any more then I'd Purchase a Toyota with faulty parts.

I drive a miracle blade that I snapped in half when it didn't stay sharp forever.




Lefty said:


> The pricing on many Moritakas is right there, just above Tojiro DPs, the last I looked. For the fun of exploring this option, if you could get a knife that was in this price range an it gave you great performance for two years of abuse/service, and then crapped out (the hole came through), would you still buy the knife? Arguably, that's a better "bang for the buck" than many knives we buy that end up getting broken/stolen/pushed into a drawer, isn't it?
> I think with this way of thinking, it's safe to call a Moritaka a Hyundai Accent. They look pretty good, are affordable, but we realize it's just going to hold us over until we can get the BMW. However, in the meantime, it's actually a pretty solid little performer with a low initial investment.
> If you are curious, I think I drive a Masamoto KS with an ebony handle and dark, two tone buffalo ferrule.


----------



## Dave Martell

dav said:


> So Dave I'm guessing then that they have a little production line type thing going on then so it might be that one of the Moritaka's does the forging and shaping ?? ( sorry I know very little about the manufacturing sequence) and then the grinding/sharpening is possibly left to an apprentice/semi skilled (or not) worker? As I've said before the supreme Damascus gyuto I have is well made and the finish/grind is to my eyes fine (I've had a square/straight edge all over it lol). Could it be that these more expensive knives are made to a bit higher spec and/or ground/sharpened accordingly. Unless you've seen lots of faults in this line too?




I can't recall a single overgrind in the supreme damascus series. The only problem I had with this line was that one time when I was thinning the blade and the 1/2" tall core popped out of the cladding. I think this series has shown itself to be ground a whole lot better than their standard line is (whatever that's called).





dav said:


> I must admit even after these posts and the obvious problems I'm still attracted to Moritaka knives, I've looked at the other similar knives and will purchase a takeda. Tanaka's aren't always that easy to come by (kurouchi) and it seems can have problems and I've looked at the Zakuri stocked by JKI but to be honest don't find Octagonal handles at all comfortable (the Rosewood D shaped handles on the Moritaka's I have fit perfectly and are another reason for buying), and tbh I really don't like the huge Zakuri logo etched into the knives blades it totally spoils the appearance for me (I know a bit shallow lol).



I personally have sharpened (many) hundreds of Takedas over the years and I love these knives. They're super thin, easy & fun to sharpen, and attractive to my eyes. The only flaws that can be noted from Takedas are that they're often flexible (as in can be bent and stay bent) and the gyutos often have either too flat a belly or too curved a belly. The price point is higher than Moritaka but they're such better knives that they deserve the higher price. 

I don't know much about the Zakuri kurouchi knives but if Jon (JKI) carries them I'd have confidence in them.


----------



## JBroida

zakuri, like all hand forged knives, will have high and low spots. There's a difference between a high and/or low spot and a hole (read- a really really deep low spot)


----------



## dav

I'm very new to this but do love the more rustic looking knives, I'm seriously contemplating the Zakuri knives Jon but (and this is very superficial I know) don't much care for the Zakuri logo/name stamped/etched onto the blades - its not exactly discreet other than that they look like a nice alternative. Although as I said the Moritaka supreme damascus knives "seem" to be much better finished. Thanks Dave for the informative answer!


----------



## NO ChoP!

Zakuri is often noted as being thick. Is this accurate? Is it thinner behind the edge? Do they accept custom orders for thinner blades?

Seems these could fill a void....


----------



## Johnny.B.Good

NO ChoP! said:


> Seems these could fill a void....



So do these.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Si


----------



## JBroida

i can start a thread on Zakuri in my forum if you would like, but i didnt really want to cloud up this thread. my main point was hand made stuff is handmade... there will be variances in the grind, high spots, and low spots... but at some point, its just an error. There's a difference between wabi-sabi and messed up.


----------



## ecchef

Here ya go....





Some nasty surprises turned up while thinning.
A giant divot adjacent to what looks like some heavy handed forging. 
Ain't no one can defend this kind of workmanship.


----------



## richinva

That sucks, no doubt. 

Can a straightedge be used perpendicular to the edge to see some of these defects prior to sharpening/thinning or does any curve in the blade prevent it? Would this be something that the forger would know was going on or could it be caught at whatever QC level there is/isn't? 

If the average Joe Schmo didn't ever thin the knife would it ever be noticeable?

Just curious........


----------



## mhlee

Guys:

I've been thinking a lot about this from a material standpoint, not that I'm a metallurgist or even a science guy. But, does any of this also have to do with the inconsistent density of the steel in the knife? I would imagine that the more you hammer a steel, the thinner it gets, but also, does the steel get more dense? 

I know that overgrinds are hard to detect from personal experience. But, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because if we have, what are essentially, dents in the blade from hammering, are some of these dents/ovegrinds also happening because the steel isn't dense and when you sharpen, it's pulling more steel off than it should? The thing that has surprised me most is that people have been finding this divots when they start sharpening, not initially when they purchase them. And that huge divot from thinning should have been apparent at least somewhat when sharpening, which is when I've noticed overgrinds on my knives.

To me, it would seem that something as large as the overgrind/divot/whatever you want to call it above would have been slightly apparent upon inspection. But if it wasn't, is there something else going on here as well - that certain parts of these knives haven't been hammered or forged well at all, and the steel is weak at certain spots? Because, DAMN, that divot in the second picture is ridiculous. 

If what I'm saying is idiotic, please simply :nutskick:.


----------



## Benuser

Hammering cannot alter the steel's structure I'm afraid.


----------



## mhlee

Thanks.

So really the only two thing that can alter the steel structure is the heat treatment?


----------



## Benuser

mhlee said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So really the only two thing that can alter the steel structure is the heat treatment?


I will let to others, more competent, to answer this very general question if you don't mind! All I can say is that for centuries people have believed hammering could create a denser (?) structure and that since at the least the twenties it's obvious nothing happens at that level at all.


----------



## Lefty

At Least there are a couple sharpenings left in that knife. Once you hit the hole, see about converting it into a suji, assuming it is a gyuto.


----------



## EdipisReks

ecchef said:


> Here ya go....
> View attachment 7583
> 
> View attachment 7584
> 
> Some nasty surprises turned up while thinning.
> A giant divot adjacent to what looks like some heavy handed forging.
> Ain't no one can defend this kind of workmanship.



jeez!


----------



## EdipisReks

Lefty said:


> At Least there are a couple sharpenings left in that knife. Once you hit the hole, see about converting it into a suji, assuming it is a gyuto.



x2. if it's a Suji, maybe convert it to a cheese wire.


----------



## Lefty

Hahaha. Now that's thinking outside the box!


----------



## StephanFowler

mhlee said:


> Guys:
> 
> I've been thinking a lot about this from a material standpoint, not that I'm a metallurgist or even a science guy. But, does any of this also have to do with the inconsistent density of the steel in the knife? I would imagine that the more you hammer a steel, the thinner it gets, but also, does the steel get more dense?
> 
> I know that overgrinds are hard to detect from personal experience. But, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because if we have, what are essentially, dents in the blade from hammering, are some of these dents/ovegrinds also happening because the steel isn't dense and when you sharpen, it's pulling more steel off than it should? The thing that has surprised me most is that people have been finding this divots when they start sharpening, not initially when they purchase them. And that huge divot from thinning should have been apparent at least somewhat when sharpening, which is when I've noticed overgrinds on my knives.
> 
> To me, it would seem that something as large as the overgrind/divot/whatever you want to call it above would have been slightly apparent upon inspection. But if it wasn't, is there something else going on here as well - that certain parts of these knives haven't been hammered or forged well at all, and the steel is weak at certain spots? Because, DAMN, that divot in the second picture is ridiculous.
> 
> If what I'm saying is idiotic, please simply :nutskick:.




It's certainly possible to have hard and soft spots from the heat treatment.
It's possible to overheat the steel so much as to lose carbon in a certain area of the blade, especially when working with something this thin.
Grain growth from improper heat cycles could also lead to issues.

but the physical impact of a hammer has nothing to do with it.


a "properly" heat treated blade should have NO soft spots or abnormally hard spots in or near the edge.


----------



## EdipisReks

Lefty said:


> Hahaha. Now that's thinking outside the box!



that's what I'm good for


----------



## Vertigo

ecchef said:


> Ain't no one can defend this kind of workmanship.


Wabi-Sabi baby! **** yeah! :spin chair: 

You need to learn to recognize Japanese culture mang. G'damn!


----------



## Andrew H

ecchef said:


> Here ya go....
> View attachment 7583
> 
> View attachment 7584
> 
> Some nasty surprises turned up while thinning.
> A giant divot adjacent to what looks like some heavy handed forging.
> Ain't no one can defend this kind of workmanship.



Wabi sabi, Bro.


----------



## Vertigo

^^^


----------



## ThEoRy

Andrew H said:


> Wabi sabi, Bro.


Wabi sabi.


----------



## EdipisReks

ThEoRy said:


> Wabi sabi.



lol. Wabi Sabi explains the spines of many of my Japanese knives, but none of them have Wabi Sabi edges.


----------



## Vertigo

Hey Edipis, I think you missed Ken's story that really, clearly, and with startling acuity illustrates exactly how massive overgrinds in the edge of a knife are a byproduct of "wabi-sabi."



Ken said:


> There is a story of a tea ceremony master who asked his apprentice to clean up the garden surrounding the tea room. He did so and announced it to the master. The master said it wasn't good enough. The apprentice went out and worked even harder. This happened several times. Finally after arranging each leaf in the garden to perfection he became exasperated with his sensei and exclaimed he could do no more. The master then went out to the garden, grabbed some leaves and casually threw them around in disorder, making a very natural looking setting and said that now it was in order. His idea of beauty was not at all a structured one but one in harmony with the natural order. Lesson learned. In their (Japanese) flower arranging art, you will not see a symmetric arrangement but rather asymmetry and often the flower arrangement is purposely not perfectly centered. Even their knives are often not symmetric.



See? A huge ************* hole in the edge is like leaves in a garden bro.


----------



## EdipisReks

oh, oh, now i see! Ken is my new god. Thank you! I will throw my Shigefusa away, now.


----------



## Vertigo

Heh.


----------



## ecchef

To quote my wife: "That's ********. He should be ashamed as a Japanese." 

No need to throw the Shig out....just bounce a Dremel off it a few times & give it a whack with a ball peen.


----------



## EdipisReks

ecchef said:


> No need to throw the Shig out....just bounce a Dremel off it a few times & give it a whack with a ball peen.



ah man, good thing Eamon currently has it for making a saya, otherwise i would be tempted!

i would like to say that none of the Takedas i've owned, and i've owned a few, have had these issues. Takedas are special knives, but they cut like mother ****ers if you get them.


----------



## mhlee

ecchef said:


> To quote my wife: "That's ********. He should be ashamed as a Japanese."
> 
> No need to throw the Shig out....just bounce a Dremel off it a few times & give it a whack with a ball peen.



LOL. 

Did you happen to tell your wife that he's a non-Japanese dude who lives in California? And please show her some of his sharpening videos where he tries to pronounce Japanese words. :begging:


----------



## GlassEye

mhlee said:


> LOL.
> 
> Did you happen to tell your wife that he's a non-Japanese dude who lives in California? And please show her some of his sharpening videos where he tries to pronounce Japanese words. :begging:



Do that and report back with the responses, please .


----------



## Eamon Burke

I aim to please.


----------



## Vertigo

Roflcopter. :lol2:

The Jameson's helps with accuracy.


----------



## Eamon Burke

I don't judge my customers requests, man.

But I choose how I work.


----------



## ecchef

Yeah...my Takedas are fine. 
Funny thing about it is that this was a replacement for one I sent back. :bashhead:


----------



## ecchef

mhlee said:


> LOL.
> 
> Did you happen to tell your wife that he's a non-Japanese dude who lives in California? And please show her some of his sharpening videos where he tries to pronounce Japanese words. :begging:



She meant Moritaka. I'm sure she would get a good laugh out of the other guy though.


----------



## brainsausage

Vertigo said:


> Hey Edipis, I think you missed Ken's story that really, clearly, and with startling acuity illustrates exactly how massive overgrinds in the edge of a knife are a byproduct of "wabi-sabi."
> 
> 
> 
> See? A huge motherfucking hole in the edge is like leaves in a garden bro.



That statement is more zen then the zenness of the leaves in the garden causing the master to teach the student how to understand the ebb and flow of---STOP MAKING F'D UP KNIVES DAMMIT!!!


----------



## brainsausage

BurkeCutlery said:


> I aim to please.



Is this a pic of the moritaka factory floor?


----------



## mainaman

mhlee said:


> Guys, you better return those almost perfect Shigefusas. They're just not Japanese.


Unless I am totally mistaken Shigefusa might be the most or one of the most hand made knives out there. According to Ken's post though that is not the case since they have no flaws that I have heard of related to the blade craftsman ship. Mentioning Watanabe in his post as example is just laughable, he does not know that Watanabe sell knives made by someone else for them. And lastly, if he knew anything about Japanese and how they do things, he'd take steps to find a reliable stone supplier, one that will find him quality stones not junk (just look at his hakka video for a definition of crappy super expensive stone).


----------



## DeepCSweede

BurkeCutlery said:


> I aim to please.



You know Eamon - if I have you "FIX" up my Shig I will at least expect you to be drinking Knappogue Castle 1951 and show some proper respect to Shigefusa.


----------



## Eamon Burke

Hey you send me a bottle of THAT, I'll do whatever you want to your Shig. I might even send you back a free one.



I can't think of where else to put this, but I have heard from more than a few people that it comes off that I just detest Moritakas. I've actually only handled a handful of Moritakas, and just didn't jive with them--not my kind of knife. I have seen at least one that had what I would call very sloppy(at least not finished) grinding. I also don't think there is an excuse for a bad grind walking out the door for money, IMO--it is the #1 most important quality of a knife. I'd rather use a square piece of metal cut out of a fender with a phenomenal grind than a $2000 American custom with an overgrind. 

I do, however, enjoy taking the piss out of anyone I can.


----------



## Dave Martell

Another message was just sent to me to check out. This one was posted on another forum in the same thread that Ken posted his Moritaka hammer message in before, it comes from Ken's boss. Like Ken's post this one also addresses the Moritaka issue and I think it's easy to see where their take is on this subject - in my opinion it's certainly not with the maker or themselves. 




> Amazing that our mercurial competitor would go out and bash a small independent Japanese knife maker just because they have a nice friendship with Ken.
> 
> I never understood trying to do business by publicly attacking your competition just to make yourself look good. I wonder how that's working out for him....


----------



## echerub

They are still operating from the starting point that there are no issues with the knives. One of the two does not profess to be an expert and is relying on what the other one says. That other one has dubious expertise. They aren't going to budge on their position.

Doesn't matter. All we can do here is inform folks of what we see: not that all Moritakas have serious issues, but that many from their "regular" line do, and that it's a gamble & you're on your own and SOL if you get one that has issues.


----------



## Dave Martell

echerub said:


> They are still operating from the starting point that there are no issues with the knives. One of the two does not profess to be an expert and is relying on what the other one says. That other one has dubious expertise. They aren't going to budge on their position.
> 
> Doesn't matter. All we can do here is inform folks of what we see: not that all Moritakas have serious issues, but that many from their "regular" line do, and that it's a gamble & you're on your own and SOL if you get one that has issues.




That's pretty much how I view it at this point. For myself I'll just continue on protecting my interests (liabilities) and when I find a problem I'll just refer the customer to this thread and they can do what they want from there. It's a sad state of affairs though.


----------



## WildBoar

Dave Martell said:


> That's pretty much how I view it at this point. For myself I'll just continue on protecting my interests (liabilities) and when I find a problem I'll just refer the customer to this thread and they can do what they want from there. It's a sad state of affairs though.


I don't understand the issue. When you receive one, just refer the customer to Ken for sharpening. After he eats a few of them maybe he will change his opinion a little?


----------



## Dave Martell

WildBoar said:


> I don't understand the issue. When you receive one, just refer the customer to Ken for sharpening. After he eats a few of them maybe he will change his opinion a little?




Great advice!


----------



## Birnando

echerub said:


> Doesn't matter. All we can do here is inform folks of what we see: not that all Moritakas have serious issues, but that many from their "regular" line do, and that it's a gamble & you're on your own and SOL if you get one that has issues.



This caught my attention.
As I am quite new to this site, and the sport as a whole, I was wondering if you could elaborate around this.

I have seen that there is a supreme series and a "regular" with a somewhat lower price tag.
Does the quality issues mainly concern the regular series, or does it also concern the supreme series?
And if so, in the same numbers or more seldom?

FYI, I have a Deba in the supreme series, and this far enjoys using it very much


----------



## Vertigo

Birnando said:


> Does the quality issues mainly concern the regular series, or does it also concern the supreme series?


This thread is rather long and exhaustive, so I'll spare you the obligatory "that was answered literally just few pages ago" stuff, and just say that no it does not appear to be an issue with the supreme series.


----------



## Birnando

Vertigo said:


> This thread is rather long and exhaustive, so I'll spare you the obligatory "that was answered literally just few pages ago" stuff, and just say that no it does not appear to be an issue with the supreme series.



Pardon me my apparent lack of reading skills, and thanks for the answer.
I have read the entire thread, and I can only find a reference to a Supreme Damascus line, which seems to not have the discussed issues, and the standard line that apparently does.

The third line, Supreme, no Damscus, seems to not be very much discussed in this thread, and that is why I asked..


----------



## Dave Martell

http://www.moritakahamono.com/wsj.html :bashhead:


----------



## chazmtb

Just breathe Dave. It is what it is.


----------



## add

chazmtb said:


> It is what it is.


----------



## Vertigo

Birnando said:


> Pardon me my apparent lack of reading skills, and thanks for the answer.
> I have read the entire thread, and I can only find a reference to a Supreme Damascus line, which seems to not have the discussed issues, and the standard line that apparently does.
> 
> The third line, Supreme, no Damscus, seems to not be very much discussed in this thread, and that is why I asked..


Ah see, it wasn't _your_ lack of reading skill, but my own. Many apologies!


----------



## Salty dog

How long? At least 36 pages.


----------



## Dave Martell

Salty dog said:


> How long? At least 36 pages.




LOL


----------



## Dave Martell

:rant: I was just sent a link to more comments from the other side of the fence. I'll leave out the deflecting ramblings of the mad man but I just have to copy this one thing that his boss wrote. Why? Because it irks me, because I'm not in a good mood right now, but most of all because it's once again showing where they want the issue to be driven to. If you're not in the mood for my rant then please skip over the rest of this post.


Ken's boss wrote....



> The real question is why anyone that fancies himself a knife maker would want to spend anytime bashing another knife maker, especially a tiny, family run business? There aren't many of these guys left in the world. Believe me I look.




I used fancy myself a person who owns a small family run business. I used to fancy myself someone who helps other retailers by inviting them into a community, into a forum, with the idea of helping them build up their stagnating online knife store by introducing them to something that I found valuable and something that I helped to create. I also used to fancy myself a trusting person who believes a person when they say that they won't sell stones (AKA compete directly with me) on the same forum that I just invited them onto and introduced them to. 

Now, I fancy myself an ex retailer of stones, a struggling knifemaker, and a father of uninsured children who can not provide the care that they need. I also fancy myself someone who's been deceived and someone who's lost faith in the concept of helping others. However, I fancy myself (still) as a person who cares about his fellow man enough not to screw them over for more $$ and I fancy myself caring more for them than I do for the a**holes selling these crappy knives or the makers who are pumping them out.

I fancy myself continuing to tell the owners of these bad knives the truth about why I can't fix them - the truth being that they got hosed by a retailer and/or knife maker who knowingly sold them a potentially defective product. I fancy this behavior because it's the right thing to do - not because it makes me $1 more than I have right now and in fact will likely cost me a great deal more $$ in lost shipping costs, lost time spent screwing around with packaging, inspecting, and communication. 

This is not a Dave issue - it's a *Moritaka* issue - at the core it belongs to them yet it bleeds on from there. I believe that any retailer being aware of potential issues with these knives and yet still continuing to sell them will get what they fancy in the end and likely more. 

Ultimately what I'd fancy here is for Moritaka to spend 30 mins re-training uncle on the wheel to stop making these mistakes and then for this discussion to be at an end. 

Rant mode off>>>


----------



## echerub

It's not bashing if there truly is an issue. Irrespective of what was revealed to you in private conversation, at least in public they're sticking to the "there's no problem here!" position. If they and Moritaka stick to that position, this won't go away.

Save who we can from getting screwed over, or at least warn them of the gamble that they may be taking. That's all we can do.


----------



## steeley

:knife:The Burr that never goes away .

but Eamon is my new hero


----------



## Eamon Burke

I'm just trying to get a simple question answered!! I don't want to be in the middle of this, lol.


----------



## tripleq

Well, here is my 2 cents. I was given a Moritaka in Japan. I brought it back and after a little use I was planning on a custom job from them. That was till I sharpened it and realized that I too was an over grind victim. I still have the knife and I abuse the hell it of it. I call it my Mori-ka-ka. 

As for Ken, I have had one and only one dealing with him. True to his reputation his information was real snake oil and he tried to manipulate the whole thing to his advantage. I wouldn't trust the guy to do business on the up and up. No better place to buy snake oil than from a snake in the grass.


----------



## btrancho

Just so that a noobie to this issue is clear - Am I correct that the "supreme" line that is being talked about here is the "Aogami Super Series" in this link:
http://www.moritakahamono.com/en/hocyo1-3.html

while the "regular" line with the over grind problems is the "Standard" series in this link:
http://www.moritakahamono.com/en/hocyo1-1.html

I was about to order from the Aogami Super Series and want to be sure that I am not going for the problem line of knives.


----------



## berko

from what ive read, overgrind issues can affect all those series.


----------



## btrancho

berko said:


> from what ive read, overgrind issues can affect all those series.


Then can someone give me a link on their web site that points to the line of knives without the problem? It has been stated a few times in this thread (and I admit to not having read all 37 pages) that the "supreme" line seems to have avoided this problem.


----------



## James

berko said:


> from what ive read, overgrind issues can affect all those series.



I think I remember reading that in the thread as well. Best to look at a different brand.


----------



## Dave Martell

btrancho said:


> Then can someone give me a link on their web site that points to the line of knives without the problem? It has been stated a few times in this thread (and I admit to not having read all 37 pages) that the "supreme" line seems to have avoided this problem.



We've seen problems from all of their lines, just a lot less from the high end customs purchased directly from the company, but then so very few people actually have those high end knives vs so many people who have the cheap ones........so.....as far as I'm concerned you takes yer chances with Moritaka and the odds aren't in your favor.


----------



## btrancho

Dave Martell said:


> We've seen problems from all of their lines~~~~........so.....as far as I'm concerned you takes yer chances with Moritaka and the odds aren't in your favor.


Thanks, Dave. I'll look elsewhere.


----------



## labor of love

takedas are pretty awesome. if youre bummed that moritaka has a bad track record just save the extra $$$ and get a takeda instead.


----------



## btrancho

labor of love said:


> takedas are pretty awesome. if youre bummed that moritaka has a bad track record just save the extra $$$ and get a takeda instead.



If I were to be the primary user I'd probably consider the Takeda. However, this is to be a "wifeknife" - My wife wants a new santoku (PLEASE - no editorials here) and I'm trying to bring her around to something better than her current big box store clunker. 

Any suggestions for other makers in the under $200 range would be appreciated. I was hoping to try Aogami Super but am open to other carbon steels.


----------



## tripleq

btrancho said:


> If I were to be the primary user I'd probably consider the Takeda. However, this is to be a "wifeknife" - My wife wants a new santoku (PLEASE - no editorials here) and I'm trying to bring her around to something better than her current big box store clunker.
> 
> Any suggestions for other makers in the under $200 range would be appreciated. I was hoping to try Aogami Super but am open to other carbon steels.



Hope this doesn't derail the thread but you could look at Watanabe pro santoku. Same rustic look, blue steel. It will run you slightly above your budget by 25$ or so including shipping but you are getting a quality, hand made knife from a well known and respected maker. There are also cheaper options from his standard line which are great knives as well.


----------



## ThEoRy

btrancho said:


> If I were to be the primary user I'd probably consider the Takeda. However, this is to be a "wifeknife" - My wife wants a new santoku (PLEASE - no editorials here) and I'm trying to bring her around to something better than her current big box store clunker.
> 
> Any suggestions for other makers in the under $200 range would be appreciated. I was hoping to try Aogami Super but am open to other carbon steels.



Hiromoto.


----------



## Chefdog

ThEoRy said:


> Hiromoto.



Yup. 
Perfect fit for this scenario, and a good value. 
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html#AogamiSuper


----------



## toddnmd

I third the rec for a Hiromoto. That's well below your budget. The one I have is quite thin--cuts very well. Does well directly against a Konosuke HD gyuto.


----------



## Timthebeaver

btrancho said:


> Any suggestions for other makers in the under $200 range would be appreciated. I was hoping to try Aogami Super but am open to other carbon steels.



Zakuri


----------



## stevenStefano

I used a Zakuri AS for a while and was super impressed


----------



## btrancho

stevenStefano said:


> I used a Zakuri AS for a while and was super impressed


To get the thread somewhat back on track...

My wife "surprised" me today by telling me that she ordered the Moritaka on her own, as I had been showing it to her in my effort to get to to abandon her clunker. 

I immediately emailed Moritaka and cancelled the order, specifically telling them that I had heard too many bad reports concerned the over grind problem and the fact that it did not seem to have been resolved over the course of time. Their website currently has a message up that their person "in charge" who handles email (I'm assuming from English speaking countries) is away until next week and there won't be any replies until then.

I ordered the Zakuri a few minutes ago. Jon was very helpful with some questions I had prior to pulling the trigger.

Thank to all for the info and suggestions. I'll post any relevant reply I get from Moritaka.


----------



## Ruso

Hehehehe, you should have shown her a Shigefusa or Artisugu


----------



## btrancho

Ruso said:


> Hehehehe, you should have shown her a Shigefusa or Artisugu



One step at a time... one step at a time. After 45 years of marriage I know the path. I just took her to Korin and she picked out a Togiharu 210 Damascus gyuto for her "big" knife.


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## Midsummer

I have two Moritaka knives of the "supreem" series (AS kuriochi), the "KS" model and a santoku. There are no grind issues on the 165mm santoku that I have appreciated. The 250mm KS has three areas (holes/ overgrinds) that concern me. They may "sharpen out", but only time will tell. The first J knife I bought after the Shun's (years ago) were some inexspensive Tojiro ITK. They too have some over grind issues on all four of their knives I bought. Live and learn.


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## labor of love

sorry to hear about the grind issues. i used to love my moritaka ks. but the thought of losing metal to fix an overgrind on that knife worries me. its already so short at the heel.


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## alex9635

Long story. 39 pages know. But frankly I don't understand the problem. It is impossible to over grind the Japanese knife. The thinner - the better. I have three Moritaka knives and they are perfect. It's a strange theme. Through 39 pages there is no real evidence with photo. Only just talk about same intangible issues. This is just my opinion.


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## Timthebeaver

alex9635 said:


> It is impossible to over grind the Japanese knife



***?


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## labor of love

ignorance is bliss?


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## ThEoRy

Dave Martell said:


> Here's the one of the two that will photograph some of the issues....now try to dispute this....



Yeah, this picture earlier in the thread never happened apparently.


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## Pensacola Tiger

alex9635 said:


> Long story. 39 pages know. But frankly I don't understand the problem. It is impossible to over grind the Japanese knife. The thinner - the better. I have three Moritaka knives and they are perfect. It's a strange theme. Through 39 pages there is no real evidence with photo. Only just talk about same intangible issues. This is just my opinion.



It's obvious that you do not understand what an overgrind is, as evidenced by your false assertion that "It is impossible to over grind the Japanese knife", so let me help you to understand the problem. Dave explained it very well in this thread when he said "I'm talking about low spots where a heavy handed knifemaker ground too deep in specific sections on the bevels of the sides of the blades...", but I'll reinforce it with a photo for you.





Not all Moritaka knives have overgrinds nor is the problem specific to Moritaka - it can happen to any knifemaker - but mistakes like this belong on the scrap pile, not in the hands of paying customers. Consider yourself fortunate that you appear to have three that are not overground. 

Rick


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## bkdc

Any knife that's ground on a wheel rather than a flat sharpening stone has potential overgrinds. That is practically every Japanese knife. It's easy to see when you're thinning the knife on a whetstone. The most overground knife I ever owned was a Yoshikane hammer-patterened SKD gyuto. It was bad enough that I thought it should never have been sold. And it's only ever an issue if the overgrind is severe where the plane of the grind approaches the center midline of the blade.. Both my Carter HG gyutos have subtle overgrinds. No big deal when it's very stuble. The overgrind on that nakiri photo is just so severe, you wonder whether the sharpener was drunk. I've owned quite a few Moritakas over the years (SIX in all) and none of them were overground. However, they were all damascus customs, and likely they were ground with more care by an expert and not some novice.


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## alex9635

Moritaka&#12288;knives are the type of knives that sharped by blade path. As the blade sharpening the blade path will become more flat. And initial flatness does not matter. Some overgrind means that you have to remove less metal. There are no problems.


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## alex9635

Subject lasts three years and there is only one poor quality photo. Maybe it's time to stop dishonoring of good knives.


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## Pensacola Tiger

alex9635 said:


> Moritaka&#12288;knives are the type of knives that sharped by blade path. As the blade sharpening the blade path will become more flat. And initial flatness does not matter. Some overgrind means that you have to remove less metal. There are no problems.



Sorry to have to inform you that you are wrong. At some point, the overgrind will result in a "hole" in the edge, as has been noted many times. The only "cure" is to sharpen past the overgrind. It takes a lot of time and effort and you lose a lot of steel.

Rick


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## berko

The problem does exist. Post 93# describes it best imo.


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## alex9635

berko said:


> The problem does exist. Post 93# describes it best imo.



It's impossible to make a such hole on the grinding stone.


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## Timthebeaver

alex9635 said:


> It's impossible to make a such hole on the grinding stone.



Double you tea eff.


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## tripleq

alex9635 said:


> It's impossible to make a such hole on the grinding stone.




LOL!!!!


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## jaybett

alex9635 said:


> Moritaka&#12288;knives are the type of knives that sharped by blade path. As the blade sharpening the blade path will become more flat. And initial flatness does not matter. Some overgrind means that you have to remove less metal. There are no problems.



If is possible to over grind an area of a knife, then it's possible to over grind the edge, which would be a problem. 

All knife makers can have issues, not just Moritaka. The only way I know how to lessen the chance of getting a knife without an issue, is to pick up a high end or custom knife. Even then their still might be problems. 

The question is does Moritaka have a bigger issue then other makers? A number of well known and respected forum members have reported over grind issues. So the evidence shows there is a problem. 

To make matters worse, the price point of Moritaka makes them attractive to new users of Japanese knives. To compound the issue the vendor in the U.S. along with those in his camp deny there are any problems. 

Jay


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## JBroida

here's an drawing of one i had in for sharpening recently.... the outline is not to scale, but it shows the problems. This one was particularly bad. The red circles were overgrinds, but the ones with the blue and green arrows actually caused problems. It could have been fixed by removing a lot of metal, but then it would have been a different knife.

View attachment 18075


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## JBroida

also i feel like i should say that the above example just happened to be a moritaka, but i've seen this kind of problem on other handmade knives (heck, i've even seen it on shuns before). Some brands/lines have more of these occurrences than others. As you can see in the lower part of the above image, the overgrinds pass the center of the blade, and in the above case, there was some overlap of how far they went (even though they were in slightly different places). If the overgrinds dont pass the center line of the edge, holes in the edge will not develop, but rather, the bevel will just be uneven. Overgrinds have to be deep and placed just right to cause holes in the edge. These areas could be flattened out over time, but until your edge moves up high enough to pass the point where the overgrinds are deep enough to cause holes, there will be problems with the blade.


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## Midsummer

JBroida said:


> If the overgrinds dont pass the center line of the edge, holes in the edge will not develop, but rather, the bevel will just be uneven.



I extracted this part of the quote because the over grinds I have seen have been in the cladding and not to the center of the core steel.

Do uneven bevels cause problems (other than aesthetic )?


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## chuck239

alex9635 said:


> It's impossible to make a such hole on the grinding stone.



Guys,

I have to agree with Alex. Holes like this in the blade face are not from forging or grinding. They are from shipping knives. The pressurized cabins of planes tend to leave large dents and divots in knives.... Obviously....

-Chuck


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## Twistington

alex9635 said:


> It's impossible to make a such hole on the grinding stone.



Really?

[video=youtube;fxng-UTi09E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxng-UTi09E[/video]


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## Dave Martell

Hey guys, if the Wall Street Journal states that Moritaka is one of the *"Five Best Chef's Knives"* then who are we to say that they have issues?


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## JBroida

Midsummer said:


> I extracted this part of the quote because the over grinds I have seen have been in the cladding and not to the center of the core steel.
> 
> Do uneven bevels cause problems (other than aesthetic )?



it depends, but usually its just an uneven looking bevel


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## Dave Martell

It never occured to me before but maybe I'm using the wrong techniques and/or tools to sharpen Moritaka knives with?

I see on their website that they recommend using the infamous Gizmo knife sharpening device.



> *Moritaka states:
> *
> _"He _(Ken)_ also makes and sells a sharpener, which lets you precisely control sharpening angles, the Gizmo Knife Sharpener sold at **************" _
> 
> _"We strongly recommend purchasing this useful device to obtain extremely sharp edges on your knives."_




Hey, if this thing will help me to sharpen overground knives then I'm off to get one....


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## Dave Martell

alex9635 said:


> Subject lasts three years and there is only one poor quality photo. Maybe it's time to stop dishonoring of good knives.




You go ahead and buy their "good knives" and support them with your honor. The rest of us, who have experience with these "good knives", will stop "dishonoring of good knives" once they start making them "good".


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## Twistington

Dave Martell said:


> It never occured to me before but maybe I'm using the wrong techniques and/or tools to sharpen Moritaka knives with?
> 
> I see on their website that they recommend using the infamous Gizmo knife sharpening device.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, if this thing will help me to sharpen overground knives then I'm off to get one....



Funny how a Moritaka would not be able to do what the cleaver in the picture is doing there...


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## Dave Martell

Twistington said:


> Funny how a Moritaka would not be able to do what the cleaver in the picture is doing there...




The only thing that could be better about that picture is if that cleaver under the stool was a Moritaka...but then the stool would likely be leaning from the overgrind.


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## maxim

Sorry to say to you but my moritaka with hole in the edge did not had that problem as described by Jon at all. It was a lot more serious. As always on my own knives i flatten the main bevel totally and everything was fine for a year. 

Then one day sharpened/thinned my knife wup and there was a dent/hole in the edge. :dontknow: Like a hard steel hagane only had a bend only. Very hard to describe as the dent was not only on one side but on both in the same place.


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## Seb

Any idea why Moritaka Hamono have so far failed to heed all of these attempts at constructive feedback? Or is this kind of issue widespread with hand-made knives and are they just being picked on here when lots of other makers do it too?

On a sidenote, I just grabbed my custom-order 260mm 'extra-thin' Blue#2 Moritaka gyuto and peered along its mirror-polished bevels and I can't see any 'irregularities' anywhere near the edge (but I see a lot of 'waviness' higher up the sides) - does this mean mine is ok, or am I just kidding myself? I have had this'n for a coupla years now and used it less than 10 times because I finally realised I don't need/like such a long knife - so I think I can fairly say that I don't really have any skin in this game, I don't really give a wank, to be honest!


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## JBroida

maxim said:


> Sorry to say to you but my moritaka with hole in the edge did not had that problem as described by Jon at all. It was a lot more serious. As always on my own knives i flatten the main bevel totally and everything was fine for a year.
> 
> Then one day sharpened/thinned my knife wup and there was a dent/hole in the edge. :dontknow: Like a hard steel hagane only had a bend only. Very hard to describe as the dent was not only on one side but on both in the same place.



yeah, the problems arent always as i described... i was just giving an example of one i had seen recently. I see problems like yours too from time to time.

@seb this happens from all hand made makers, but problems occur most frequently with a few makers... i know of 3-4 that i see on a regular basis with problems like this. I sometimes see moritakas with no problems at all (and to me, a knife with some high an low spots that dont cause problems is still ok). I also see a lot of shun knives with serious grind issues. I think the most important thing is being able to see and recognize problems (learning to do this takes time and practice), or buying from someone you trust. Anyways, the point is that its not just moritaka, but at the same time, its not necessarily unfair to say what has been said for the most part. In all honesty, however, i see just as many if not more problems with shun (7 out of 10 that i see have serious grind problems... none that cause holes in the edges, but serious enough where the bevel looks more than just messed up due to high and low spots... even new ones out of the box).


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## maxim

I have seen some other knives with that issue. But not as many or as bad as Moritakas. waviness above is very common even Shigefusa KU knives have it so nothing to do with what been shown here. 
Many users will just ignore it or live with it (nothing wrong with that) 
It will just be a problem when you send knife like that To Dave, Jon or me  Then we will call up and say hey we can not fix that !
And thats why i think this thread exist


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## pkjames

I really hate overgrind! it stops me from getting an even kasumi finish, and evening out the bevel takes FOREVER! But it does happen on almost all the grinding wheel finished knives, just how serious the problem is, having a overgrind all the way down to the bevel, IMO, is totally unacceptable.


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## berko

One of my zakuris had an overgrind near the edge that actualy caused a hole. But it wasnt that big, so i simply sharpened it out. Took like 15 mins on a 1k Shapton pro.


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## Dave Martell

Just to clarify....

High and low spots are only a temporary inconvenience in appearance, the overgrind that is a problem is one that goes into the edge and grows (gets worse) over time as the knife is normally sharpened to the point where a hole is formned and can not be fixed without modifying the knife into something other than what is was meant to be.


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## jaybett

JBroida said:


> ...I think the most important thing is being able to see and recognize problems (learning to do this takes time and practice), or buying from someone you trust.





maxim said:


> ...It will just be a problem when you send knife like that To Dave, Jon or me  Then we will call up and say hey we can not fix that !
> And thats why i think this thread exist



An excellent summary of the problem. 

Jay


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## SpikeC

I don't know why anyone bothers responding to trolls.


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## Pensacola Tiger

SpikeC said:


> I don't know why anyone bothers responding to trolls.



It was a slow day.


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## Lefty

Troll or not, this topic needs to be discussed. I'm not saying Moritaka, exclusively (I haven't seen the overgrinds issue in person, after selling a Moritaka, and two more still to inspect). However, this issue needs to be cleared up, in how people are perceiving it. To me, a true overgrind is something a) unintentional, b) one that will cause issues on the primary bevel - immediate or not, and c) a pain in the ass.

As far as I can best explain the issue, it is a low spot that is deeper than what one would normally thin to on the secondary (sometimes primary, but that's an easy fix) bevel. It causes a hole when the overgrind is so deep that it either goes into the other face of the knife (think of the knife as two faces - a left and a right - when looking down the spine and splitting it down the centerline), or when it is almost into the other side, and is so close that it will not allow an edge to hold on that section once the sharpening has hit that spot. For this, think foil thin, on one blade face. 

They're very hard to see, because the knives we are discussing are so thin that it can be an overgrind of nothing more than a hundredth (or two) of an inch. However, the end result is a totally unusable position along the blade, often extending up towards the spine, rendering that area useless for many mm's, even a cm. thus, you'd have to take a gyuto with a heel height of 50mm down to (for example) 40mm, just to make it potentially useable. At which point, you'd have to regrind the bevels, and create an entirely new knife.


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## mainaman

alex9635 said:


> Long story. 39 pages know. *But frankly I don't understand the problem*.


It's fine it is your money


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## chiffonodd

rockbox said:


> I bet you probably see a disproportionate number of bad ones because people send them to you when they can fix it themselves.
> 
> For those of you who still don't understand the issue, I drew this very crude illustration to highlight the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if you grind a away at the blade, the hole still there and there is nothing to reinforce the edge.



:idea2:


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## MAS4T0

:zombiegrave:


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## Mucho Bocho

All this fuss over my little moritaka nakiri. Oh well that knifes loooong gone


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## Zweber12

No way, i always wanted this impact screw driver, what a coincidence..


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## Pirendeus

Zweber12 said:


> No way, i always wanted this impact screw driver, what a coincidence..



Yes, but what kind of patina can you get on it?


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