# Wide bevel gyuto, Kono?



## Ruso (Jan 22, 2015)

I am looking for wide bevel gyuto that is not Heiji or Kagekiyo. First is because I already have a Heiji knife and second is out of my price range.
Konosuke Fujiyama is priced about right. However, I see different lines, white 1 & 2 and Blue 1 & 2. What is the difference beside steel? Any other suggestion in that price range?


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## glestain (Jan 22, 2015)

Tesshu from Aframes


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## Dardeau (Jan 22, 2015)

glestain said:


> Tesshu from Aframes



Not dramatically wide bevel, just finished that way. Don't let that stop you from buying one, they are badass even low cost aside.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2015)

Kochi?


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## labor of love (Jan 22, 2015)

This is the second time in recent weeks Ive suggested this knife...But so far the feedback is pretty good and it seems like a great deal on a nice knife+nice handle
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ayuki-Syousin-Sakura-240mm-Gyuto-now-in-stock
review is here
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...yuto-sanmai-gyuto-and-kiritsuke-ryoba-preview
FWIW I found the regular fujiyamas to have a little too much belly for my taste. The Funayuki profile looks nice. Its out of stock though.


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## Von blewitt (Jan 22, 2015)

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ayuki-Syousin-Sakura-240mm-Gyuto-now-in-stock


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2015)

labor of love said:


> This is the second time in recent weeks Ive suggested this knife...But so far the feedback is pretty good and it seems like a great deal on a nice knife+nice handle
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ayuki-Syousin-Sakura-240mm-Gyuto-now-in-stock
> review is here
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...yuto-sanmai-gyuto-and-kiritsuke-ryoba-preview
> FWIW I found the regular fujiyamas to have a little too much belly for my taste. The Funayuki profile looks nice. Its out of stock though.



Doh! I just used that knife and it was an excellent performer, but thought that may have been out of the pricerange? Kochi is roughly $100 less. Both are really good knives and I would recommend either...or both maybe?


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## turbochef422 (Jan 22, 2015)

I had a white #2 steel kono and it was as nearly pronounced wide bevel as the blue and ginsan konosukes I had. What about a mizuno


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## Ruso (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks all. Non of the suggestions really fancy me, besides may be Sakai Takayuki, but its a bit pricy.
Any input on differences between Fujiyamas?


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## ChipB (Jan 23, 2015)

Sure thing Ruso. I own two handfuls of Konosuke Fujiyama and Honyaki gyutos. While I don't own a W2, I own a few different flavors of W1, B2 and a Togo Reigo Fujiyama. There are real differences between the lines of knives beyond steel, though the smith's treatment of said steel shouldn't be overlooked. The Fujiyama smith's treatment of every flavor of steel is absolutely sublime, but for me, the W1 is something very special. Butter on the stones and capable of an absurd edge. Beyond quality/treatment of steel, there are differences, which aren't just skin deep. My W1s are denser knives by a good margin. While slightly, slightly thicker, the weight difference in nonetheless pronounced vs. the lighter Blue variants. While the lines clearly do not share the same finish, the grinds are also different. The overall grind of the W1s (both regular and Damascus) seem more contoured and spheroid than the Blue. The grind on the Blue I own also seems to start slightly higher up the blade face than the W1, though only very modestly so. Indeed, the Blue knives seem to have a slightly flatter final grind grind than the White which makes them feel and perform more like a laser, though the W1s don't give up much in that respect and, as a result of the slightly thicker, more pronounced geometry, add a bit more versatility. Upon visual inspection, it might appear that both have a bit of a hollow ground aspect to the final grind, though I'd need to buy some calipers to verify that and suspect it might be optics. I could probably go on for a while about the knives, but it might be more helpful if you had any specific questions about either line.


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## designdog (Jan 23, 2015)

I think you have to have your mind settled on what you consider a "wide bevel knife." The Heiji you have is rather like a two sided traditional single bevel knife. That is, a very real wide bevel on each side. Then there is Konosuke, with very shallow bevels, that are more cosmetic than functional.

The Kochi stainless clad Kurouchi knives have nice bevels as well.

Of course, if you really like wide bevel knives, particularly if you are right handed, you might consider the real thing, and get a usuba, miorishi, or funayuki. Not as hard to handle as you might think, and lots of fun to sharpen, especially with Jnats...


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## 420layersofdank (Jan 23, 2015)

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ousin-Sakura-240mm-Gyuto-Passaround-in-the-US


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## 420layersofdank (Jan 23, 2015)

I used marc4pt0s 240. WOW! AMAZING. By far the best wide bevel fujiyama esque knife i have ever used. Maybe a bit better imho


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## Ruso (Jan 23, 2015)

ChipB, thank you very much for the comparison, very interesting. I actually though that Blue variants were the heavy ones  How would you compare the "wide beveleness" of the both? Are they more on a cosmetic side, like designdog points out, or more of a true wide bevel? 
I am looking for something like two single bevels glued together


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## designdog (Jan 23, 2015)

If you look at the photos of the Sakai Takayuki pass around, you can easily see that the "wide bevel" is not a bevel at all, but a cosmetic finish. There is no physical bevel there, you can see it from the side and choil shots.

Not to say this is not a great knife. I am only pointing out the difference between it and what you see on a Heiji.

I got my first taste of this in 2008, when I ordered a Konosuke B1 from the maker. I was really disappointed, and rarely use the knife. Recently ordered a Fujiyama B2 funi/gyuto and returned it because, in my mind, the Fujiyamas were no better.

Just not my taste  I prefer Kato, TF, Heiji, Kochi, etc. Konosuke is not close to a Heiji; they are on two ends of the spectrum. I would never call Konosuke, or the Sakai Takayuki wide bevel knives...


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## turbochef422 (Jan 23, 2015)

The kono Fuji ginsan gyuto I had was light and the wide bevels were also like a single edge knife on both side. It was a great knife I might even pick up a 270


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## ChipB (Jan 23, 2015)

Both in aesthetic and in actual grind, I think the sharpener probably comes closer to a true wide bevel with a shoulder on the Blue. That said, the Togo Reigo Fujiyama I have is the best example of a wide, pronounced bevel (it's also the beefiest Fujiyama I own by a good margin). If a true wide, double bevel on a Konosuke knife that is more generally available is your aim, then the Blues are probably the better bet. As an aside, all the fujiyama knives I own are asymmetrically ground right to the edge for its worth. Also, will agree and disagree with Dog. On the togo Reigo and Blues there is a tall/wide bevel, but it is not a true flat final grind. I think there may be some confusion about the curvature of the final grind and the actual height of it here.


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## 420layersofdank (Jan 23, 2015)

designdog said:


> Then there is Konosuke, with very shallow bevels, that are more cosmetic than functional....



what does functional mean? idk why but i feel like you just dissed my mom :eyebrow:


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## schanop (Jan 23, 2015)

designdog said:


> If you look at the photos of the Sakai Takayuki pass around, you can easily see that the "wide bevel" is not a bevel at all, but a cosmetic finish. There is no physical bevel there, you can see it from the side and choil shots.



Err.. your are totally off on this topic. The shoulder is pronounced, in fact, sharp. So it is a true bevel from that point down.


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## chinacats (Jan 24, 2015)

schanop said:


> Err.. your are totally off on this topic. The shoulder is pronounced, in fact, sharp. So it is a true bevel from that point down.



Agreed, the knives in the passaround were true wide-bevel knives. I've owned Heiji and Kochi as well, they are all wide bevel.


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## marc4pt0 (Jan 24, 2015)

Boom town:


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## Dardeau (Jan 24, 2015)

I just thought to check and see if any of these were still around and lo and behold they are. Go to blue way Japan and organize results be price, high to low. Up towards the top will be a 210mm tall bevel blue steel gyuto. I owned the 240mm version and it was very good. The bevels are not cosmetic and ithad a crisp shinogi. It was not two single bevel edges however, the two bevels are hollow ground, most notably on the left.


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## TheDispossessed (Jan 24, 2015)

just got a kono fuji white 210 from solidsnake03, totally digging it so far, i'm tending more towards thicker stiffer knives these days and the wide bevels are great.
if my conscience ever gets the better of me and i become a site supporter i'll be able to put up some pics...


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## designdog (Jan 24, 2015)

Again, not saying one knife is a better performer than another. I was simply trying to prevent disappointment by the OP, a Heiji owner.

Try this test: pick up a traditional Japanese single bevel knife and trace the wide bevel down with your finger. Study the angle from the choil. Pick up a Heiji 240mm gyuto and do the same. Got to be less of a bevel, as there is one on each side, but it is most certainly there, and pronounced.

Now, try a Konosuke, or the Sakai, or any of these others. You call that a wide bevel? I call it cosmetic, because, in most cases, the actual bevel is not along the Shinogi, but where it makes the knife a more effective performer. To me, the top of the bevel and the Shinogi are the same, are very pronounced, and follow each other down the knife.

I own a lot of great knives that are not what I call wide bevel knives: Kato, Hide, Shigefusa, Mizuno, Watanabe. A genuine "wide bevel" gyuto is a rare object...


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## toddnmd (Jan 24, 2015)

I have a Kono Fuji B2 gyuto. I think the bevels are more than cosmetic. I love the knife. I seem to see mostly very positive stuff about the Kono Fujis, over quite a long period of time, but opinions do vary a bit.

I'll be receiving the Takayuki passaround knives this week, so look forward to doing some direct comparisons!


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## XooMG (Jan 24, 2015)

The question is whether the [geometric] shinogi precisely fits the change in finish. Sometimes there is certainly a bevel change but it is blended a bit, and the transition of the finish (scratch direction or blasted kasumi area) is cosmetic to appear more controlled.

So all designdog was saying was that he thinks the real shinogi is not precisely matched by the change in scratch directions. I don't know about the Sakura, but the Fujiyama models seem to match his description to varying degrees.


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## designdog (Jan 24, 2015)

toddnmd said:


> I have a Kono Fuji B2 gyuto. I think the bevels are more than cosmetic. I love the knife. I seem to see mostly very positive stuff about the Kono Fujis, over quite a long period of time, but opinions do vary a bit.
> 
> I'll be receiving the Takayuki passaround knives this week, so look forward to doing some direct comparisons!



Again, I am not denigrating the performance or desirability of any knife.

Here is a timely example: I just now received a Zakuri 240mm aogomi super gyuto from JKI. Just opened the box. From the photos, it certainly looks like a "wide bevel" knife. However, the actual main bevel is about ½ inch up from the edge, nowhere near the cosmetic Shinogi line. In fact, when you trace your finger from the top of the knife, along the side, all you feel is the change in surface texture when you reach the "Shinogi".

Does this make the knife better or worse? Well, to me, I am a bit disappointed, but will keep the knife anyway, as it has a good feel to it, a good edge, and it was reasonably priced. What bothers me more is the profile, which has a slight belly to it.

Before anyone gets down on me for bringing this up, just ask yourself: why are they doing it? I mean, Kato doesn't seem to think this is necessary, and his knives are outstanding. For years Mizuno offered a blue steel gyuto (which I have.) Then, recently, they took the exact same knife and put a cosmetic bevel on it. Probably not as bad as electronic exhaust sounds on some new cars at the Detroit auto show, but the same idea.

So. Caveat emptor. Just don't think its built like a Heiji...


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## XooMG (Jan 24, 2015)

designdog said:


> Here is a timely example: I just now received a Zakuri 240mm aogomi super gyuto from JKI. Just opened the box. From the photos, it certainly looks like a "wide bevel" knife. However, the actual main bevel is about ½ inch up from the edge, nowhere near the cosmetic Shinogi line. In fact, when you trace your finger from the top of the knife, along the side, all you feel is the change in surface texture when you reach the "Shinogi"...


Interesting. I have not seen the Zakuri gyuto but have refinished several others and while the top of the kasumi finished (bead blasted) section doesn't necessarily match the real shinogi, it's not far off.

All the pics' knives have had the bevel clarified directly on stones, so the top of the bevel is the top of the bevel with some slurry spillover.


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Jan 24, 2015)

This thread is like asking an automobile forum about differences in BMWs and getting bogged down in a discussion about the Hofmeister kink.


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## chinacats (Jan 24, 2015)

FWIW, Heiji knives don't have a "straight" bevel...it is actually slightly concave...it's still a wide bevel knife.


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## designdog (Jan 24, 2015)

The Heiji is not straight  never claimed it was. But it follows the "Shinogi line." Re the Zakuri, photos don't show what you feel with your fingers...


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## XooMG (Jan 24, 2015)

designdog said:


> The Heiji is not straight  never claimed it was. But it follows the "Shinogi line." Re the Zakuri, photos don't show what you feel with your fingers...


I polished the bevels on flat stones. They stop grinding at the [geometric] shinogi unless a dramatic angle change is made. My fingers verify what the stones do, and the pics are to demonstrate what the stones do. A straight edge verifies it as well, even though I gave the bevels a slight convex.


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## Matus (Jan 24, 2015)

chinacats said:


> FWIW, Heiji knives don't have a "straight" bevel...it is actually slightly concave...it's still a wide bevel knife.



My (limited) understanding on the topic of wide bevel knives is that most of wide bevel knives do not have perfectly flat bevels, but that some sort of curvature to them. Of course - one may decide to make the bevels flat as the knife is being sharpened over time.


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## designdog (Jan 24, 2015)

XooMG said:


> I polished the bevels on flat stones. They stop grinding at the [geometric] shinogi unless a dramatic angle change is made. My fingers verify what the stones do, and the pics are to demonstrate what the stones do. A straight edge verifies it as well, even though I gave the bevels a slight convex.


Exactly my point! Thank you! The "geometric shinogi", which, in many cases, is different from the "appearance shinogi'.

And by not being "straight" I meant that the bevel follows the curve of the shinogi as it travel lengthwise across the knife...


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## chinacats (Jan 24, 2015)

Matus said:


> My (limited) understanding on the topic of wide bevel knives is that most of wide bevel knives do not have perfectly flat bevels, but that some sort of curvature to them. Of course - one may decide to make the bevels flat as the knife is being sharpened over time.



This is my point as well...


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## schanop (Jan 24, 2015)

designdog said:


> XooMG said:
> 
> 
> > I polished the bevels on flat stones. They stop grinding at the [geometric] shinogi unless a dramatic angle change is made. My fingers verify what the stones do, and the pics are to demonstrate what the stones do. A straight edge verifies it as well, even though I gave the bevels a slight convex.
> ...





designdog said:


> If you look at the photos of the Sakai Takayuki pass around, you can easily see that the "wide bevel" is not a bevel at all, but a cosmetic finish. There is no physical bevel there, you can see it from the side and choil shots.



Err, again, for the point you made above about Sakai Takayuki Sakura gyuto if way off :beatinghead:

I would say again that for Sakai Takayuki Sakura gyuto, the shinogi line is sharp. There is a distinct change in both appearance and geometry along the line as you see in the many photos posted. It is a physical bevel. 

I would even say that for many single bevel knives OOTB, the appearance of shinogi line often slip beyond the actual geometry particularly towards the tip. But that's talking about human error here.


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 24, 2015)

I remember a very similar discussion regarding different iterations of the Mizuno Akitada Hontanren gyuto.


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## designdog (Jan 24, 2015)

OK, OK! I am buying a Sakai Takayuki Sakura gyuto. Sure hope those are real bevels. You can bet I will revisit this discussion when it arrives...


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## marc4pt0 (Jan 24, 2015)

Either way, I think you're going to dig the knife


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## schanop (Jan 24, 2015)

Timthebeaver said:


> I remember a very similar discussion regarding different iterations of the Mizuno Akitada Hontanren gyuto.



I recalled that too. Apparently for current offering through JCK, there are two versions: wide bevel with shindig one, and one with old style grind.



JCK said:


> Hontanren Series Wa Gyuto (Cladding blade. Blue Steel #2 core sandwiched with soft iron)



VS


JCK said:


> Hontanren Series Wa Gyuto with Shinogi
> (Cladding blade. Blue Steel #2 core sandwiched with soft iron,)
> 
> Mizuno's Special Wa Gyuto with Shinogi on both side of blade. Double bevel edge blade, yet the blade is sharpened with similar method as Single bevel edge Japanese Traditional style knives such as Yanagiba, Usuba, Deba.


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 24, 2015)

The "old" one didn't have the "shinogi". Some folk thought the "shinogi" was cosmetic, some disagreed.


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## labor of love (Jan 25, 2015)

Man...Ive been really checking out those Mizunos lately. I might have to contact Koki to see if the difference is only cosmetic or if the grind and bevels are different on the 2 different gyutos.


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## XooMG (Jan 25, 2015)

designdog said:


> Exactly my point! Thank you! The "geometric shinogi", which, in many cases, is different from the "appearance shinogi'.


But I think you missed my point. My pics show the actual shinogi to be not very far from where the cosmetic one was. This is true for most of the tall bevel kurouchi, nashiji, and tsuchime knives I have used. Your Zakuri seems to be a pretty serious exception if the real shinogi is nowhere near the kurouchi/kasumi boundary.


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## ChipB (Jan 25, 2015)

So, the Shinogi line on my Kono Fujiyama Togo Reigo is spot on the apex of the shoulder down the entire length of the grind on both sides. My B2 Funayuki is near spot on as well from an aesthetic matching the grind perspective. The W1 Fujiyamas I own (270, 240 Damascus and 240 Wa-Kiri) have a kasumi finish which only changes at the cladding line (obviously the damascus is damascus). Either way, all my Fujiyama knives have a high grind and perform impeccably. I am not a big fan of low final grinds (like those on my Shigs) which is one of the reasons I love Konos. 
Either way, I'm not sure how much the OP cares about finish selection vs. grind location. As I noted, my W1s seem to ahve a more belended grind that starts maybe 1-2mm lower (though still high up the blade face) than my B2 and seems to be blended/smoothed a bit more though is also a heavier, denser knife. My Togo Reigo is thicker and heavier than either B or W variants by a noticeable margin and has the most pronounced shoulder of the 3. Hope this helps.


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## labor of love (Jan 25, 2015)

labor of love said:


> Man...Ive been really checking out those Mizunos lately. I might have to contact Koki to see if the difference is only cosmetic or if the grind and bevels are different on the 2 different gyutos.




Here is Koki's response...
Mizuno Tanrenjo makes 2 kinds of Wa Gyuto in Hontanren Series.



One with Shinogi line (for both side), the blade grind angle is thinner than the another one. The GF-28R has more similar blade grind angle and sharpening grind as other Western Style knife such as Gyuto.



Both are great Carbon Steel Wa Gyuto (sharpening grinding angle and finish (looks) are different) are popular, but our customers selects GF-28R Wa Gyuto more than GF-28S.



We hope you will find your favorite one and when you will have any questions, please let us know and help.



Thank you very much again for your interest and confirmation.



Best Regards



Koki Iwahara

JapaneseChefsKnife.Com


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## Ruso (Jan 26, 2015)

Thanks all. While I still do not know which knife to pick, the discussion was quite informative and an interesting to read. I had a chance to check Fuji in B1 and to be honest I expected the shoulders to be more pronounced then they are.

designdog, when you get your Sakai Takayuki Sakura, please share what do you think about the knife, especially the bevels...


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## ChipB (Jan 26, 2015)

labor of love said:


> Here is Koki's response...
> Mizuno Tanrenjo makes 2 kinds of Wa Gyuto in Hontanren Series.
> 
> 
> ...



Will be checking out an MT soon, though I suspect, despite what might be a shared sharpener, they have a different character than Konosuke Fujiyamas.
Let's not forget that the OP was interested in differences amongst the various flavors of Konosuke Fujiyama knives, not possible Sakai provenanced alternatives.


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## Ruso (Jan 26, 2015)

ChipB said:


> Will be checking out an MT soon, though I suspect, despite what might be a shared sharpener, they have a different character than Konosuke Fujiyamas.
> Let's not forget that the OP was interested in differences amongst the various flavors of Konosuke Fujiyama knives, not possible Sakai provenanced alternatives.



I am starting to reconsider the Fujiyamas  I think they are not what I thought they are. BTW thanks for all the comprising on Fujis, very helpful. 
I might keep saving and get a long wanted Kato instead.


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## ChipB (Jan 26, 2015)

Well, I own a couple Katos and they, along with Konosuke Fujiyamas, are my favorite knives (for different reasons). If you are sure you will enjoy a Kato, then I'd recommend saving for one rather than spending a little bit less on a knife you are uncertain about.


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## labor of love (Jan 26, 2015)

Ruso said:


> I am looking for wide bevel gyuto that is not Heiji or Kagekiyo.





ChipB said:


> Let's not forget that the OP was interested in differences amongst the various flavors of Konosuke Fujiyama knives, not possible Sakai provenanced alternatives.


On the contrary.


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## XooMG (Mar 4, 2015)

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but since it was left a little ambiguous in my opinion about the shinogi on the Shoshin Sakura, I thought I'd chime in now that I've got one:





The cosmetic shinogi (a scratch pattern change) is fairly close to the geometric shinogi (an angle change, shown by the shadow) for much of the blade, but gets a bit less consistent and a bit more blended near the tip.

So while it is indeed a tall bevel with a pretty crisp shinogi, the geometric change does not precisely match the finish, as one would expect on a nice single bevel or a tall-bevel kurouchi knife.

I do not know how that compares to the Konosuke Fujiyama. Perhaps if someone could take a pic like the one above, it would be clearer.


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## schanop (Mar 4, 2015)

Have you considered that your observation is actually human error, or a result of polishing and knife finishing process? What you observe also happens to single bevel knives too, even on one with good fit and finish, good polish.

When polishing a bevel like this, a craftsman uses his tool going back and forth along the length of the blade. Let's see this video of Hide-san (Hideaki Yamamoto) of Hide knife for example, although knife in the video is a honyaki yanagiba.

[video=youtube_share;vZhrvYCqsGk]http://youtu.be/vZhrvYCqsGk[/video]

What is clear for Shoshin Sakura is that the knife has a distinct shoulder, and not just a cosmetic polish for wide bevel.

Your photo is nice, nevertheless.



XooMG said:


> Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but since it was left a little ambiguous in my opinion about the shinogi on the Shoshin Sakura, I thought I'd chime in now that I've got one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## XooMG (Mar 4, 2015)

No error in my observation. I said the geometry change roughly corresponded to the scratch pattern, but due to imperfection in grinding, it is slightly blended and not a precise match, and the inconsistency between geometric and cosmetic shinogi becomes predictably greater near the tip.

I was not claiming that finishing a knife with different hira and kireba scratch patterns is unconventional.


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## Ruso (Mar 4, 2015)

Thanks for sharing it XooMG

BTW very nice picture! Can you please make another, but a choil shot?


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## panda (Mar 4, 2015)

check out shiro kamo AS


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## schanop (Mar 4, 2015)

XooMG said:


> ]\
> So while it is indeed a tall bevel with a pretty crisp shinogi, the geometric change does not precisely match the finish, as one would expect on a nice single bevel or a tall-bevel kurouchi knife.





XooMG said:


> No error in my observation. I said the geometry change roughly corresponded to the scratch pattern, but due to imperfection in grinding, it is slightly blended and not a precise match, and the inconsistency between geometric and cosmetic shinogi becomes predictably greater near the tip.



Not that your observation was error, it was precise. I am on a different thinking it is within tolerance of human error versus cost that even for a nice single bevel knives, it may have such feature. The smaller difference angle between the body and blade road it is, the higher chance such polish can get cross over. 

First picture was from a few years ago of a Hide kensaki yanagiba with mirror polished body. I tried to indicate where the actual bevel stated by the red line.

Other pictures were from Syousin Sakura series. On a gyuto, particularly towards the tip, transition from blade road to body is fuzzy and not that sharp.


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