# Sharpened with a 6000 grit stone for the first time



## dafox (Apr 7, 2020)

Wow, what a revelation!
I started sharpening 3 years ago with a Chosera 800 and gradually began using finer stones going as high as 3000 to 4000 grit until yesterday. I sharpened a Takamura R2 red handled 180mm gyuto with a Arashyama 6000 and good golly did it get a sharp and have a refined edge! It cut red bell peppers with ease, no hesitation. It will be interesting to see how long that edge lasts.


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## Colonel Mustard (Apr 7, 2020)

From my experience, it doesn't last that long but it's easy and fast to bring it back. It does last longer on R2 though.


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## Neyxous (Apr 7, 2020)

Just got a Kurosaki R2. I will be very interested in how long it will push cut paper before I need to work it... R2 is supposed to have crazy retention....


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## Neyxous (Apr 7, 2020)

Just got a Kurosaki R2. I will be very interested in how long it will push cut paper before I need to work it... R2 is supposed to have crazy retention....


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## Neyxous (Apr 7, 2020)

This would be a good place to ask I imagine, If i want a 6-8k equivalent Jns, Wha the heck do I want? The amount of choices/ price range for Jns is mind boggling.


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## Nagakin (Apr 8, 2020)

R2 on a 6K will last a long time with just stropping or honing on a ceramic. You don't really need to take it back up the progression often either, just touch up on the 6K. Fresh I could push cut my tickets after a full day which includes my mise en place, 10 gallons of soup, whatever other prep and 4-500 covers no sweat.


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## Nagakin (Apr 8, 2020)

Neyxous said:


> This would be a good place to ask I imagine, If i want a 6-8k equivalent Jns, Wha the heck do I want? The amount of choices/ price range for Jns is mind boggling.


I'm also new to jnats and bought an aiiwatani koppa for $100 that I'm really happy with. Will get you sharper than you'll ever need and keep you there.


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## Steampunk (Apr 8, 2020)

I can sympathize with this a lot... Sharpening is such a journey... You start out trying to own limited stones, often in the middle more versatile grits, which leads to trying finer ones... It is a true revelation, as it's easier to deburr on them, and during your early years of sharpening this is the only way you'll get a hair shaving edge... Then your angle control will continue improving with practice, and you can start going backwards and getting those medium stones to deburr properly, and they take on a new lease of life...

I think that moderately-fine stones are actually under-recommended to those in their first several years of sharpening, which is an injustice. Those in their early career as sharpeners need to experience fully deburred edges straight off a stone. Medium grit stones are always recommended, but really, it's a bit unfair as few will experience shaving sharp edges off of them without many years experience. I know I couldn't get an edge off of a stone coarser than 4-8K+ during my initial, I don't know, maybe 4-5 years? At least not without insane difficulty... This has been a figment of the half decade for me... Like being able to deburr on at least most of my stones using edge-leading strokes in an efficient manor. The precise angle control in sharpening is something that simply takes a great deal of time. Every grit improves the more time you have behind the stones, but when you're in your first years, fine stones actually seem to have even greater importance... Yet they're billed as stones only needed by hardcore users? This is a weird craft where you kind of have to work backwards to appreciate what is possible; starting with fine/slow stones, and then being able to get good results off of coarse/fast ones.

Steels like R-2 and SRS-15 are interesting... The way they dull lets them touch-up very easily on quite high grit stones providing the edge isn't let to degrade excessively... I'm not sure I'd ever have to go below 6-8K on my Akifusa unless the edge had been abused, and it responds to surprisingly high grits. These are those rare steels that can hold a useful sub-micron edge in the kitchen, and is kind of wasted at coarser medium grits. This is not the way with all steels... Less wear resistant, and coarser grained ones seeming to beg being started at more aggressive grits, and not being taken too high.

- Steampunk


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## Steampunk (Apr 8, 2020)

Neyxous said:


> This would be a good place to ask I imagine, If i want a 6-8k equivalent Jns, Wha the heck do I want? The amount of choices/ price range for Jns is mind boggling.



If you're sharpening R-2, I'd stick to synths or diamond pasted strops; maybe some of the better Coticules (I have La Dressante, and La Veinette that respond well to these steels.)... I'm not of the opinion that J-Nats feature hard enough abrasives to truly abrade the carbide matrix of these steels.

I like J-Nats a lot on less wear resistant steel edge bevels (Shirogami / 10xx; fine stainless like 12C27/AEB-L/Ginsanko/N690.), but on tungsten/vanadium carbide steels, J-Nats don't seem to do more than burnish around the carbides. They're okay for creating Kasumi contrast on these sorts of steels, but don't seem to do as much for the edge... I use J-Nats for finishing wide bevels in Aogami, for example, but even on these steels I'm using Belgians or AlOx synths on the edges. R-2 / SRS-15 is Synth or special-vein Coticules for me...

I love J-Nats, but honestly, they're overrated unless you have high-hardness simple steels. In other applications, there are other stones that can take them to school. It's a material science issue. Use them on the steels they work with, though, and you don't want to use anything else... If I was just sharpening AEB-L or Shirogami, I'd use as many J-Nats in my progression as I physically could, if those knives were over 59hrc.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## labor of love (Apr 8, 2020)

My r-2 takamuras take whatever edge you give them and they hold it. I like going with the 6k edge simply because I’m so impressed with how long it can hold such a high grit edge. My takamura petty currently has just a gesh 2k edge from like 2 weeks ago still Performing at a very high level. I use it every single day too.


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## Michi (Apr 8, 2020)

I use a 3,000-grit Suehiro Cerax to touch up my SG-2 gyuto. It gets extremely sharp that way, with enough bite to instantly open up the skin on a tomato or bell pepper.

I've taken it to 6,000 and 10,000 as well. At 6,000, it's moderately sharper, but not by a lot. And it starts to glide a little on waxy skins. At 10,000, it is even sharper, and falls through paper effortlessly, regardless of the direction of the grain. And it cuts waxy skin worse than it does with a 3,000 grit edge.

I don't dispute that a higher grit can create a sharper edge. For something like a yanagiba, that's exactly what I want. For a chef knife, it's not.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 8, 2020)

I agree, I've been switching between 4K & 6K depends on steel & knife Type & untended use. 6K is not always better than 4K.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 8, 2020)

Neyxous said:


> Just got a Kurosaki R2. I will be very interested in how long it will push cut paper before I need to work it... R2 is supposed to have crazy retention....


Probably after your first few cuts.. that kind of sharpness doesn't last.
Also, it would last longer on a coarser stone, due to the size of the teeth


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## MartinJ (Apr 8, 2020)

I also found that, with more experience and practicing, i was able to get higher and higher in grit without loosing the bite. 
On my kitayama 8000 when i first had it, i made really nice polishes, shavin sharp edge, cut paper like nothing, but wouldn't pass as easy a tomato skin. 

Now, i can just get refined and refined but still cut this tomato skin open at 8000.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 8, 2020)

MartinJ said:


> I also found that, with more experience and practicing, i was able to get higher and higher in grit without loosing the bite.
> On my kitayama 8000 when i first had it, i made really nice polishes, shavin sharp edge, cut paper like nothing, but wouldn't pass as easy a tomato skin.
> 
> Now, i can just get refined and refined but still cut this tomato skin open at 8000.


This is why I always recommend that people learn on only one stone. Too many variables make it near impossible to find where you went wrong.


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## MartinJ (Apr 8, 2020)

Seems like a good idea but one coarse and one mid seems the minimum to me...


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## kayman67 (Apr 8, 2020)

There's a lot of misconception about high grit retention and what that edge can cut, because it is really hard not to make the edge worse as the numbers go up and up. Reading the topic, I really like the fact that experience is acknowledged to its rightful place regarding this, but I'm not really shure it changes a lot. It's a very delicate subject since it's been said for so long that this is not possible. This and stropping have a very bad rep.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

i have only used the shapton glass 6k. and i like it a lot on carbons. it seems this is the highest practical end point for these. at about 8 or so they start hesitating on stuff. 

i take my powders only to 4k. i think its good trade-off between speed to get done and end sharpness, and i dont feel these really keep an edge above this grit for any length of time so why even bother.

that being said i have taken skd11 to 12k and it gets sharp as F, truly scary sharp. for some time.

you can take all steels to 12-15k, its just not usually worth the time/effort.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

I don't think grit matters as much as understanding what you're doing. Properly apex'ing and deburring is, by far, the most important aspect of sharpening. Someone that knows what they are doing can bring teeth back to a blade in seconds. 
This is why there are so many different ways to sharpen, it's the understanding that is important.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

Forty Ounce said:


> I don't think grit matters as much as understanding what you're doing. Properly apex'ing and deburring is, by far, the most important aspect of sharpening. Someone that knows what they are doing can bring teeth back to a blade in seconds.
> This is why there are so many different ways to sharpen, it's the understanding that is important.



i agree. but i kinda take for granted that most people here know how to sharpen properly and efficiently. and know what they are doing. and how it all works. 

i actually dont do any extra deburring at all. except from swiping motions on the stones. edge leading, alternate sides 1-1, as my finishing strokes on each stone. and i never get any burrs. not visible, and i cant feel any either. 
i keep my strops for the razors, thats it. 

i learned on the sharpmaker like 15 years ago. alternating sides thats the key... never any burrs with the SM.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

inferno said:


> i agree. but i kinda take for granted that most people here know how to sharpen properly and efficiently. and know what they are doing. and how it all works.
> 
> i actually dont do any extra deburring at all. except from swiping motions on the stones. edge leading, alternate sides 1-1, as my finishing strokes on each stone. and i never get any burrs. not visible, and i cant feel any either.
> i keep my strops for the razors, thats it.
> ...


Are you able to push cut toilet paper with your edges?


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

i am only able to cut free hanging toilet paper (the brand i use) with a 500 (glass) or 1k (glass/pro) edge, above that it just slides and cannot make a repeatable good cut, tried every k up to 12k (with 2 different 12k's, naniwa SS and shapton pro). 

also straight off my coticules and my uchigumori (my only jnat) i can cut toilet paper repeatadely. but thats it. maaaaybe maybe i could cut it off a 2k synth, but none higher than that.

i regard it as a parlor trick when i found out you only needed a 1k for it.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

inferno said:


> i am only able to cut free hanging toilet paper (the brand i use) with a 500 (glass) or 1k (glass/pro) edge, above that it just slides and cannot make a repeatable good cut, tried every k up to 12k (with 2 different 12k's, naniwa SS and shapton pro).
> 
> also straight off my coticules and my uchigumori (my only jnat) i can cut toilet paper repeatadely. but thats it. maaaaybe maybe i could cut it off a 2k synth, but none higher than that.
> 
> i regard it as a parlor trick when i found out you only needed a 1k for it.


Please don't take offense to this, but what I'm getting from that is your technique must have flaws if you can't keep a good edge on the higher grits.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

but 40oz i guess you are asking if i just think i get burr free blades when i'm never stropping doing any kind extra deburring or if i actually do get burr free blades doing what i do. 

i'd say i actually do get burr free blades. i have very good vision (with my lenses in) and i can actually see burrs, i just have to look and turn the blade when its reflecting light. and without my lenses in i can focus on stuff about 1,5 inch/3-4cm in front of my eyes. with lenses in i can still focus up really close. about 3 inch.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

inferno said:


> but 40oz i guess you are asking if i just think i get burr free blades when i'm never stropping doing any kind extra deburring or if i actually do get burr free blades doing what i do.
> 
> i'd say i actually do get burr free blades. i have very good vision (with my lenses in) and i can actually see burrs, i just have to look and turn the blade when its reflecting light. and without my lenses in i can focus on stuff about 1,5 inch/3-4cm in front of my eyes. with lenses in i can still focus up really close. about 3 inch.


I'm not saying that you aren't getting burr free blades, but something is going wrong somewhere if they aren't cutting toilet paper at high grits. You should be able to do it at any grit.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

i take no offence at all. since i knew you would assume this. but its the way it is here. neither i, nor my knifaholic buddy can cut toilet paper with anything above 1k. (except off NATs)

and he strops on diamond. up to 0,25 micron. so thats that i guess. 0,25 on leather is much much sharper than i can get on even my 12k stones. it is what it is.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

inferno said:


> i take no offence at all. since i knew you would assume this. but its the way it is here. neither i, nor my knifaholic buddy can cut toilet paper with anything above 1k. (except off NATs)
> 
> and he strops on diamond. up to 0,25 micron. so thats that i guess. 0,25 on leather is much much sharper than i can get on even my 12k stones. it is what it is.


I dunno.. I try to keep it simple.. I will usually sharpen on a very hard and fine natural stone, burr on one side, flip, burr on the other side, strop on the stone for deburring and refining (edge trailing), then strop on linen and leather, then a few strokes on another stone to cut some teeth back into the edge.. very fine edges, but also enough bite to get through a few shifts.
I really don't think it matters how you get there, as long as you do.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

it just skids and/or unrealiably tears/skids above lets say 2k for me. and under 500 it just tears. but i'm in sweden and we probably have very different toilet paper. i usually only buy very soft paper but its semi thick. hard to break by poking a hole through it. yet soft.

but now with this toilet paper crisis going on i was forced to buy lower qual toilet paper and this is almost see though variety, very low strength and thinner. i might be able to cut it. i have not even tried. its darker color too.

so this could be a variable. we are cutting different things.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

Tissue paper is a good test as well.. anything that is super soft and flimsy, the harder to cut, the better. That's the real test, a real sharp edge doesn't care how soft the toilet paper is.
As far as toilet paper that I use for cut tests.. it's the Costco brand that Carter couldn't cut.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

yeah i almost forgot i cant even cut TP with my razors. and those are off the 12k's then stropped or the the spyderco UF (this is much finer than the 12k's). not even my iwasaki kamisori. and its basically a true mirror after this. they're too polished. no bite left.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

That's a common misconception.. you don't need bite to cut toilet paper. A very polished edge is perfectly fine for it


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

i still feel you need a certain teeth to reliably cut tissue/toilet paper. if you go above a certain level the it wont reliably cut it. at least with synths. i mean i can take any of my knives SS or carbon and do a few swipes off the uchi and it will cut any TP or tissue reliably 1 minute job. and the coti too. but not with the synths!

and this is why. this is what a natural stone creates. it creates the teeth of a synth 1-2k or so stone. since it cant cut or abrade the carbides efficiently.
jnat below. it turns into a carbide saw at the edge. 1k mag.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

inferno said:


> i still feel you need a certain teeth to reliably cut tissue/toilet paper. if you go above a certain level the it wont reliably cut it. at least with synths. i mean i can take any of my knives SS or carbon and do a few swipes off the uchi and it will cut any TP or tissue reliably 1 minute job. and the coti too. but not with the synths!
> 
> and this is why. this is what a natural stone creates. it creates the teeth of a synth 1-2k or so stone. since it cant cut or abrade the carbides efficiently.
> jnat below. it turns into a carbide saw at the edge. 1k mag.


I'm aware of natural stones doing this.. sorry, I should've mentioned that you don't need a natural stone to do it either. Any stone of any grit can make a knife cut toilet paper, it all depends on the sharpener.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

thats my theory at least. and i'd guess its fairly accurate.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

yeah its always up to the user. of course. i have tried everything though and i get the results i'm getting. and if the goal is to cut TP i go for 1k stone. and if the goal is to push cut tomatos/food i go for a 6-12k stone. easy as that. 
horses for courses.

with that being said i regard 1k edges as fine saws more or less. and have them on 0 of my knives.


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## Chuckles (Apr 9, 2020)

I like that this thread came back to discussing cutting food. I think Steampunks post about higher grit stones being helpful while learning is very good. I had a blast with high grit stones and loaded strops and slowly got over it and just did whatever was needed to get through the day as fast as possible. A 6k edge is certainly in the useful range for kitchen knives in my book.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

mine too.


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

i was thinking 40oz...

had a few beers so i was thinking. maybe you're right. i was thinking about the toilet paper thing. maybe i can only cut it at 1k because i suck at sharpening. and then above that grit my skills is not up to par. and at 1k i just barely get by. so i manage to cut it. 

but what if its the other way around. lets say you can cut it at "any k" (but i kinda doubt you will be able to at 500 or below). and lets say if you manage to cut it at 6k or 10k or even 15k, have you then put a 1k edge on the blade with a 6/10/15k stone? i mean it could work that way too right?

or, what if we are both wrong. and if you put stones in peoples hands and they could only cut toilet paper at 3k and only that. then what?? do we both have to suck dongs then?

or maybe its a variable? you can cut TP at X grit and i at Y grit? could it be that? the human variable?

-------------

 sorry just having a few beers and thinking too much. lol. there is no black and white its all just grayish...

i like the "philosophy" part of it though.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

Too many variables to count! Lol.. who really knows? I do, however, think that with burr formation you can kinda eliminate the 1k edge from a 10k stone theory.. 
I wasn't saying that you suck at sharpening.. I was just trying to share that it's definitely possible to get that level of sharpness from higher stones, seeing as I've done it myself, and I've seen a lot of my knife buddies do it too.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 9, 2020)

For the record.. I think that kitchen knives are best in the 3-6k range. Obviously, there are exceptions...


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## inferno (Apr 9, 2020)

Forty Ounce said:


> For the record.. I think that kitchen knives are best in the 3-6k range. Obviously, there are exceptions...



yeah i do everything i have between 3 and 6k and all customer stuff at 2k. 3-4k is kinda my sweetspot. 3k for regular ss and 4k for powder and carbon. i notice almost no lasting difference between 4 and 8k for the carbons. sure the 8k get much sharper but after 2h?? then what.

on a sidenote i have noticed that my 100 grit SiC stone can almost give a 1k edge/finish. compared to shapton pro 1k. how can this possibly work out? its a 10x difference in grit here right. but it is so i'm afraid. 

i just accept it.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 10, 2020)

inferno said:


> yeah i do everything i have between 3 and 6k and all customer stuff at 2k. 3-4k is kinda my sweetspot. 3k for regular ss and 4k for powder and carbon. i notice almost no lasting difference between 4 and 8k for the carbons. sure the 8k get much sharper but after 2h?? then what.
> 
> on a sidenote i have noticed that my 100 grit SiC stone can almost give a 1k edge/finish. compared to shapton pro 1k. how can this possibly work out? its a 10x difference in grit here right. but it is so i'm afraid.
> 
> i just accept it.


Reminds me of the naniwa 2k green brick.. you can make that thing perform like a 4k with mud/water control


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## ian (Apr 10, 2020)

It strikes me above that @Forty Ounce is talking about *push cutting* toilet paper, while @inferno is talking about teeth, which are useful in *slicing* toilet paper. (I assume push cutting here means pushing perpendicular to the edge, with no slicing action.)

I don't think I'd be very effective push cutting TP myself, but I'm well aware that my technique isn't perfect. Looking forward to the next 10 years of practice.

But yea. Food.


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## Michi (Apr 13, 2020)

Is there any point to sharpening beyond a certain level? I mean, I don't cook with toilet paper. And, if I did, I almost certainly wouldn't cut it free-hanging; I'd cut it on my cutting board instead, which seems a lot more practical 

How long is an ultra-sharp edge going to last on a kitchen knife? Five or ten cuts? After that, it'll be back to very sharp, just like it would be without having a go at it with a 10,000 or 12,000 grit stone first.

I think there is such a thing as needlessly sharp for kitchen knives. No-one shaves with them, and no-one uses them to perform surgery. So, why even bother (other than for amusement value)?


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 13, 2020)

Michi said:


> Is there any point to sharpening beyond a certain level? I mean, I don't cook with toilet paper. And, if I did, I almost certainly wouldn't cut it free-hanging; I'd cut it on my cutting board instead, which seems a lot more practical
> 
> How long is an ultra-sharp edge going to last on a kitchen knife? Five or ten cuts? After that, it'll be back to very sharp, just like it would be without having a go at it with 10,000 or 12,000 grit stone first.
> 
> I think there is such a thing as needlessly sharp for kitchen knives. No-one shaves with them, and no-one uses them to perform surgery. So, why even bother (other than for amusement value)?


This is an argument I see quite often.. why is it viewed as "beyond a certain point"? This level of sharpness is attained in a couple of minutes.. it's my standard.. everyone has them, these are mine.


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## Midsummer (Apr 13, 2020)

Forty Ounce said:


> I'm aware of natural stones doing this.. sorry, I should've mentioned that you don't need a natural stone to do it either. Any stone of any grit can make a knife cut toilet paper, it all depends on the sharpener.



For me to wrap my head around this claim; I would want to see a video. How about 3- 5 different stones.



Forty Ounce said:


> This is an argument I see quite often.. why is it viewed as "beyond a certain point"? This level of sharpness is attained in a couple of minutes.. it's my standard.. everyone has them, these are mine.



Wouldn't take long...


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 13, 2020)

Midsummer said:


> For me to wrap my head around this claim; I would want to see a video. How about 3- 5 different stones.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't take long...


There's a few videos of me cutting toilet paper on my ig.. I use whatever stone I think will go well with the steel that I happen to be sharpening. What I mean by this, is it doesn't matter what stone you use (obv there are exceptions), it's how you sharpen.
Http://www.instagram.com/forty.knives


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## Midsummer (Apr 13, 2020)

Forty Ounce said:


> There's a few videos of me cutting toilet paper on my ig.. I use whatever stone I think will go well with the steel that I happen to be sharpening. What I mean by this, is it doesn't matter what stone you use (obv there are exceptions), it's how you sharpen.
> Http://www.instagram.com/forty.knives



Thanks, I now better understand you claim.



ian said:


> It strikes me above that @Forty Ounce is talking about *push cutting* toilet paper, while @inferno is talking about teeth, which are useful in *slicing* toilet paper. (I assume push cutting here means pushing perpendicular to the edge, with no slicing action.)
> 
> I don't think I'd be very effective push cutting TP myself, but I'm well aware that my technique isn't perfect. Looking forward to the next 10 years of practice.
> 
> But yea. Food.



Language plays a role here. You can see that in ians' post. Many people think of push cutting paper as cutting without slicing motion but clearly others think of push cut as defined by Salty here: 

I am happy maintaining my edges on an ohira suita. I only cut food though and no form of paper.


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## Forty Ounce (Apr 13, 2020)

Midsummer said:


> Thanks, I now better understand you claim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry for the misunderstanding with push cutting.. I'm referring to it from a professional cook standpoint. Push cut, draw cut, rock chop, etc.
As far as cutting paper is concerned.. it's simply a test to see if you have deburred properly, it's not about spending extra time getting an extra sharp edge. If you have a properly sharpened and deburred edge, it will have no problem cutting through free hanging toilet paper, or paper towels. I don't see anyone saying that testing hair scissors on wet tissue is wrong.. it's simply one of the best edge tests out there. That's not to say that you absolutely need a good edge to cut food, in fact, it's the opposite. Geometry cuts. You can have a knife with good geometry and a thin edge, that is completely dull, and it will still move through food easily. A nice edge is just icing on the cake.
So.. these kinds of edges are nice, imo. Are they necessary for cutting food? No. Absolutely not. You can rub a knife on the sidewalk and get an edge that will cut food.. but why would you want that? Aren't we all here to see how good we can get? What's the point of settling?


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## panda (Apr 13, 2020)

I have never once thought to try to cut toilet paper. What a stupid idea. Shaving arm hair is both disgusting and dumb as well.


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## kayman67 (Apr 13, 2020)

Cutting paper or shaving hair are just means to verify behaviour the easiest way possible for everyone. I think they are highly misunderstood. 



Michi said:


> Is there any point to sharpening beyond a certain level? I mean, I don't cook with toilet paper. And, if I did, I almost certainly wouldn't cut it free-hanging; I'd cut it on my cutting board instead, which seems a lot more practical
> 
> How long is an ultra-sharp edge going to last on a kitchen knife? Five or ten cuts? After that, it'll be back to very sharp, just like it would be without having a go at it with a 10,000 or 12,000 grit stone first.
> 
> I think there is such a thing as needlessly sharp for kitchen knives. No-one shaves with them, and no-one uses them to perform surgery. So, why even bother (other than for amusement value)?



There's a topic around here where several people write about how a fixed system made very high grit stones make sense and how those edges were much more resilient time wise. They are not talking several cuts. It's much much more than that. 
Now, with kitchen knives (and maybe all knives, I'll get back to that in a bit), it could very well be unjustified to go beyond a given coarser stone. Since I can shave hair or whatever after Shapton Pro 120, anything would seem completely unjustified after. Even for thinning, 120, 220, 400 and some polishing paste would make the knife smooth enough to glide, but not very sticky at the same time. Won't look that bad either. Anything above that would be simply unjustified. I did many knives and tried many ways. So, why have more? Because it actually makes a difference, if you can do it or need it. 
The real problem is that it won't matter for everyone. The reasons could vary so much, we won't gain anything from analysing them. I usually try to understand how someone uses a knife, where, some expectations and see how I can address them all in best possible way. I'm fine with any solution that works for a specific scenario.

Getting back to knives, the debate is maybe much more prominent with pocket knives. The debates were endless. But there were tests that proved how even a soft alloy can benefit from a higher grit. That was the end of that, but opened the door for something else. Was the extra gain worth the trouble of getting the edge there? Let's say it will cut twice as much, but you need a lot more time to achieve that level, you need more gear and you need a very high level of applied technique with almost no room for errors. With time, it gets easier, but never that easy. All while the "normal" could be achieved by pretty much anyone (obviously not anyone, but you get the idea). Thing is, there's a difference between this and it's not possible or won't gain something.


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## Michi (Apr 13, 2020)

Well, each to his own. There isn't a one true way.

For me, I sharpen my Wüsthofs to 1000 and stop there. (Once in a while, I might treat them to a 3000.) They are _sharp_.

For my PM steels and white #2, I go to 5,000. Those knives are _really_ sharp.

For my yanagiba (white #2), I go to 10,000. That's the only knife where I bother with that because that knife has almost no board contact.

Any of these knives effortlessly falls through a tomato or bell pepper. When I'm cooking, that's plenty sharp enough, and I don't need any sharper. Once the edge dulls a little, a few swipes on a strop, and I'm back in business. The stones come out only once every four or five weeks.


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## joseluisva65 (Apr 13, 2020)

+1
i still feel you need a certain teeth to reliably cut tissue/toilet paper


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## bkultra (Apr 13, 2020)

@joseluisva65 welcome to the forum


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## kayman67 (Apr 13, 2020)

Michi said:


> Well, each to his own. There isn't a one true way.
> 
> For me, I sharpen my Wüsthofs to 1000 and stop there. (Once in a while, I might treat them to a 3000.) They are _sharp_.
> 
> ...



I've worked with guys that would "sharpen" (read "steel") their knives before cutting anything and change them every couple of months, up to guys that would cut for weeks without any sharpening involved (quite impressive, to be honest). All were happy with how things were going. So you are absolutely correct. It's just good to know that something else is possible when you are in a certain spot. Perspective changes a lot with volume.


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## Michi (Apr 13, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Perspective changes a lot with volume.


No doubt. I cut things for ten or twenty minutes at a time. A professional chef cuts things for 6-8 hours at a time. Huge difference.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 16, 2020)

I'm still a bit confused about this topic. How exactly do you use a fine grit stone to touch up an edge in between sharpening, and does it change if you are touching up PM steel? And how does the fine grit stone replace stropping?


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## ian (Aug 16, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I'm still a bit confused about this topic. How exactly do you use a fine grit stone to touch up an edge in between sharpening, and does it change if you are touching up PM steel? And how does the fine grit stone replace stropping?



It just means you sharpen it on a fine grit stone, but only a little bit.


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## Ruso (Aug 16, 2020)

I usually slice cut (not push cut) a paper towel to see how edge behaves. I sharpen in the kitchen so I dont have TP handy there.
It is less about the medium itslef, and more about being familiar with the expected results.


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## M1k3 (Aug 16, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I'm still a bit confused about this topic. How exactly do you use a fine grit stone to touch up an edge in between sharpening, and does it change if you are touching up PM steel? And how does the fine grit stone replace stropping?


Works best when the knife is sharpish. For example, it'll cut a tomato but hesitates a bit on the skin.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 16, 2020)

For lack of a better way to phrase the question, about how many strokes on a fine grit stone works for a touch up, and is it different for powdered metal? I was assuming about 3-5 strokes per side, but it's hard to screw up and oversharpen with a very fine grit stone.


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## M1k3 (Aug 16, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> For lack of a better way to phrase the question, about how many strokes on a fine grit stone works for a touch up, and is it different for powdered metal? I was assuming about 3-5 strokes per side, but it's hard to screw up and oversharpen with a very fine grit stone.


Sounds about right, depending on how dull you let the edge get and how fast the stone works.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 16, 2020)

Same approach if you use a 5000, 8000 or 10000 stone, and if it’s powdered metal?


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## ian (Aug 16, 2020)

The approach is always “sharpen as little as possible while getting a good edge”... it’s good to have a ballpark number of strokes (like, less than 10, vs more than 100), but you’re overanalyzing.


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## josemartinlopez (Aug 16, 2020)

Got it thanks


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## M1k3 (Aug 16, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Same approach if you use a 5000, 8000 or 10000 stone, and if it’s powdered metal?


Pretty much. Most powdered steels will lose that initial fresh off the stones sharpness somewhat quickly compared to carbon steels. Buy will keep s satisfactory edge for way longer than carbon steels.


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## YumYumSauce (Aug 16, 2020)

I like to keep a stone at work in case I or anyone else needs it but generally sharpen at home. I always cut veggies or fruits to test for sharpness and use that for snacking, sandwiches etc as I sharpen. Makes sense to me to test it on the things you actually use it for. Now, if the value of tp keeps rising I suppose Ill start doing precise cuts to use or sell precisely the right amount.


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## Kawa (Aug 17, 2020)

Testing on fruit for snacks isnt a comparisation test.

Many people who test their knives after sharpening try to reflect on knife #1 sharpened by me versus knife #2 sharpened by me. Therefor you want the knifes result to be the only variable you change, so you test on the same medium every time. It would be wise to choose a medium thats lies in a spectrum where you can also see/feel different results of your sharpening. Newspaper seems to suite this, toiletpaper aswell (has more variables among sharpeners. Newspaper seems to be the same everywhere), or even thin risepaper rolling paper for joints. Normal printing paper is less suited, because you can cut this with a fairly blunt knife aswell.

Fruits etc. have too many variables to do this kind of test: ripe/unripe, warm/cold...
What you are testing is, is my knife performing the way I want it to. This is a different kind of test, a more practical one versus 'is my last knife sharper then the one I did before'


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Aug 17, 2020)

inferno said:


> i still feel you need a certain teeth to reliably cut tissue/toilet paper. if you go above a certain level the it wont reliably cut it. at least with synths. i mean i can take any of my knives SS or carbon and do a few swipes off the uchi and it will cut any TP or tissue reliably 1 minute job. and the coti too. but not with the synths!
> 
> and this is why. this is what a natural stone creates. it creates the teeth of a synth 1-2k or so stone. since it cant cut or abrade the carbides efficiently.
> jnat below. it turns into a carbide saw at the edge. 1k mag.


Great image! Do you know what steel it was?


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## Ruso (Aug 17, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Testing on fruit for snacks isnt a comparisation test.
> 
> Many people who test their knives after sharpening try to reflect on knife #1 sharpened by me versus knife #2 sharpened by me. Therefor you want the knifes result to be the only variable you change, so you test on the same medium every time. It would be wise to choose a medium thats lies in a spectrum where you can also see/feel different results of your sharpening. Newspaper seems to suite this, toiletpaper aswell (has more variables among sharpeners. Newspaper seems to be the same everywhere), or even thin risepaper rolling paper for joints. Normal printing paper is less suited, because you can cut this with a fairly blunt knife aswell.
> 
> ...


Well put!


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## captaincaed (Aug 24, 2020)

I think paper is a great tool to tell you about deburring. Little else gives you so much feedback so quickly.

As far as a working edge, I agree you want to go cut what you plan to cut. I've had really clean, high grit edges that aren't great on veggie skins. Great edge, but best for another task.

I like 4k for veggie prep, 400-2k for butchery. Just my druthers.


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## sododgy (Aug 26, 2020)

As has been brought up, the language in test cuts seems needlessly murky. 

To me, a push cut is the opposite of a draw/pull cut. You're pushing outward. Pretty simple, other than that you can/should specify that it's a slicing motion away from you. 

Test cuts seem to use push cut to mean what I think should be called a drop cut. Essentially a chop, but non repatative and at slower speed. Vertically up to down with little or no lateral motion. 

I don't know, maybe I'm missing the point, but it sure seems like a professional push cut and a "test" push cut are wildly different things. I can "push cut" a tomato at work long after I'd be able to for a test vid, and I can "push cut" paper with a much less sharp knife if I'm doing it by work definition...


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## kayman67 (Aug 26, 2020)

As everything unfolds, this makes absolutely no difference as long as the one doing it has the same reference. Cutting tests are taken way too personal.


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