# Kiritsukes, Masamoto, and the case of the wrong knife



## zapatodefuego (Jan 11, 2017)

Hi, all. I'm a long time lurker of this forum but recently ran into an issue that probably only this community can help with.

For almost two years I've really enjoyed using my Masamoto wa-gyuto for pretty much anything you would use a knife for. Eventually I wanted more so I tried to fill out my collection with most of the knives in the western Japanese knife catalog: petty, santoku, honesuki, nakiri, probably some others. What I was missing was a sujihiki which I didn't really have any desire for. Instead I wanted to get a double bevel kiritsuke and I was prepared to spend a lot on one. One stipulation: it had to have a flat belly profile, or as much as possible. Otherwise I figured I would just be getting a fancy looking gyuto.

Eventually I settled on this Masamoto: 







Its in the KS line so it _should_ be double bevel, mono-steel White #2, and come with the normal amenities like a polished rounded spine, finished choil, and overall excellent fit and finish. I went ahead and ordered one from JapaneseChefKnives for $445 (for comparison the KS gyuto is $306).

What I got was this:






Apparently it's Masamoto's new offering to replace the one above. My first impression was that the flat profile I desired had been completely done away with and this thing has no completely flat area along the entire edge. My second impression was that there was no way this knife is worth $445. First of all it's san mai which sets it apart from all other double bevel knives in the KS family and second the fit and finish is far inferior to the KS gyuto. The kiritsuke's spine is square and uncomfortable while the gyuto's is polished, the choil is unfinished and ground on a weird angle, there are visible grinder marks on the ferrule, and edge grind is uneven. It doesn't even fit into its saya without force. 

Here's the kiritsuke and the gyuto side by side:





For what it's worth JapaneseChefKnives has offered a full refund but getting them to agree to this took a bit of convincing. They also offered a small discount if I were to keep the knife but it was paltry in comparison to the total cost. I haven't returned it yet but I can't imagine I won't eventually.

Can anyone who is familiar with Masamoto knives comment on this kiritsuke? Am I being too critical about the F&F? I get the feeling it is more like the single bevel knives in the KS line than the double bevel knives but I have nothing else to compare it to. 

Does anyone have suggestions for what I could get to replace this kiritsuke that matches the original profile I was after?

edit: sorry for all the misspellings of "kiritsuke"...


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## labor of love (Jan 11, 2017)

Sucks to hear, yeah the photo on jck's website of the k tip looks sweet(but overpriced), now it just sounds...overpriced. My opinion ofcourse. If you're in search of a mono k tip I know bernal carries ashi k tip gyutos, and Jon at jki has both kochi and kagekiyo kip Gyutos that I like the looks of, also James at knives and stones carries a souysin sakura(which is at a superior level of craftsmanship over ks for less money(all of these are San Mai). But that ks k tip profile looks truly unique. Souysin Sakura might be your best bet. James did a pass around and you could read more about user experiences if you're interested, the profile might be rather close to the ks k tip.


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## foody518 (Jan 11, 2017)

Gonna be harder to find monosteel 

Does this count as too curvy? http://www.echefknife.com/knife-typ...-steel-gyuto-chefs-knife-rosewood-handle.html

Also wondering if camera angle/blade placement relative to the camera skews the picture even more...

Another thought - Shibata Kotetsu gyuto or sujihiki?


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## JaVa (Jan 11, 2017)

Definitely a bummer, but at least you were given some options.

Always sucks to not get what was promised. When it happened to me with a certain vendor I wasn't offered a refund or a discount or anything except the cold shoulder. Well at least I did get the right knife, but just a VERY bad one. 

Since you have the option, I would just send it back and keep looking.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 11, 2017)

The Souysin Sakura is a very good looking knife! Do you have any idea if it is double bevel? The product description doesn't say and I can't find pictures of both sides of the knife. That knife sure is heavy though.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 11, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Gonna be harder to find monosteel
> 
> Does this count as too curvy? http://www.echefknife.com/knife-typ...-steel-gyuto-chefs-knife-rosewood-handle.html
> 
> Also wondering if camera angle/blade placement relative to the camera skews the picture even more...



I'm about ready to give up on the mono-steel dream. I did look at the Yoshihiro before and I think it might do fine, but I was hoping for a carbon steel.


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## malexthekid (Jan 11, 2017)

But aren't most of thos suggestions literally k-tipped gyutos, aka the belly will depend on the gyuto style. It seems the OP wants a flat profile...

To the OP, why does it being san mai matter or is there some reason it has to be identical to your current ks. Also why the desire for the flat profile? Perhaps you are looking at the wrong profile for what you want? Also from the original photo (JCK's) I would suggest the profile is similar to what you got.

And as for F&F, if you want that level then its likely you will have to purchase through a US, EU or the like vendor that has the relationship to request that of the makers, those things aren't necessarily an issue for the japanese market.

And finally on cost, that is a question for you, if you are set on the ks, then that is the asking price, sure you can probably get something cheaper but it depends on what arr actually your key non-negotiable criteria.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 11, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> To the OP, why does it being san mai matter or is there some reason it has to be identical to your current ks. Also why the desire for the flat profile? Perhaps you are looking at the wrong profile for what you want? Also from the original photo (JCK's) I would suggest the profile is similar to what you got.



I prefer mono-steel and I found something that was, that's all. San mai isn't out of the question but of the knives in my collection the mono-steel ones are thinner and lighter and I was going off of that. The Masamoto kiritsuke should be at least of the same quality as my other KS knife and I was disappointed to find it wasn't. 

Most double bevel kiritsuke's I find aren't much different that k-tip gyutos while most single bevel kiritsukes have a long flat belly with an upturn at the end. I don't really want to deal with the hassle of a single bevel knife but I do want the flatter profile, otherwise buying a gyuto -like kiritsuke would be pointless since I already have a gyuto. 

Probably the camera angle isn't helping but the kiritsuke has more curve to it than the gyuto closer to the heel. I think this is just bad grinding though.


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## foody518 (Jan 11, 2017)

Needs to also be a 240mm?


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## labor of love (Jan 11, 2017)

I think what we consider to be flat profiled is often open to interpretation. I've used reg kagekiyo and kochi gyutos and found them both to be very suitable for push cutting. Sakura is indeed double beveled.



malexthekid said:


> But aren't most of thos suggestions literally k-tipped gyutos, aka the belly will depend on the gyuto style. It seems the OP wants a flat profile...
> 
> To the OP, why does it being san mai matter or is there some reason it has to be identical to your current ks. Also why the desire for the flat profile? Perhaps you are looking at the wrong profile for what you want? Also from the original photo (JCK's) I would suggest the profile is similar to what you got.
> 
> ...


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## malexthekid (Jan 11, 2017)

I think you need to understand that it is of the same quality... except fit and finish is not something that is a measure of quality to japanese makers... you can get some very expensive J-knives with unrounded spine and choil because frankly their normal market doesn't care about it.

I still think the profiles are the same. Just camera angles playing tricks...

You have to make the call if you want to keep it or not, we can't help you on that, just point out some realities of this market (aka spine and choil rounding isn't always gonna happen). And remember, one can never have enough gyutos ;-).

If you decide to return it, then I would suggest filling in the questionare and high lighting the non-negotiable points (aka you want a double bevel kiritsuke as opposed to a k-tipped gyuto). If its out there someone on here has one or has tried one.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 11, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Needs to also be a 240mm?



Preferably. I don't have a lot of counter space and anything above that will get my into trouble.


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## Graydo77 (Jan 11, 2017)

I got a very flat k tip at tsukiji Masamoto when I was in Tokyo last September. It's monosteel but it's a 300 mm, too big for me to use everyday but I bought it anyway because it looked so cool [emoji23]


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## chinacats (Jan 11, 2017)

Curious if the Gesshin Ginga could be made with a K-tip? Just a thought but I know Jon has been able to do many things in the past...certainly wouldn't hurt to ask...would be the same steel as the KS (mono white 2) but the fit and finish would be very good.


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## malexthekid (Jan 11, 2017)

zapatodefuego said:


> The Souysin Sakura is a very good looking knife! Do you have any idea if it is double bevel? The product description doesn't say and I can't find pictures of both sides of the knife. That knife sure is heavy though.



It is double bevel. But its a wide bevel knife.. so it will typically be heavier and thicker at the spine. Haven't used one but from all reports it is exceptionally thin behind the edge.

It is on my list as my first wide bevel when I get around to getting one.


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## malexthekid (Jan 11, 2017)

chinacats said:


> Curious if the Gesshin Ginga could be made with a K-tip? Just a thought but I know Jon has been able to do many things in the past...certainly wouldn't hurt to ask...would be the same steel as the KS (mono white 2) but the fit and finish would be very good.



Probably. Just a question of wait time I guess. Pretty sure he has had honyaki ginga's in the past.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 11, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> It is double bevel. But its a wide bevel knife.. so it will typically be heavier and thicker at the spine. Haven't used one but from all reports it is exceptionally thin behind the edge.
> 
> It is on my list as my first wide bevel when I get around to getting one.



What exactly does a "wide bevel knife" mean? It's not a phrase I'm familiar with.


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## Graydo77 (Jan 11, 2017)

Had to scroll thru a few pics but found one.
https://flic.kr/p/QV224w


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## foody518 (Jan 11, 2017)

zapatodefuego said:


> Preferably. I don't have a lot of counter space and anything above that will get my into trouble.



Try contacting Yoshihiro and see if someone there is willing to take and send you extra pics so you can assess profile of the specific knife and length you are looking at. They have a neat SLD core steel one. Some suminagashi carbon ones. None quite like the KS line though. I expect F&F to be quite good on these pricier lines


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## daveb (Jan 11, 2017)

I had a Yoshi K tip for awhile, nice flat spot, felt like a 240mm Nakiri. Pretty too! 10% discount for forum members at EE.


http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=94324


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## jkao (Jan 11, 2017)

Similar thing just happened to me where I got something that's completely different to what's pictured. I was offered to exchange for the older/original version that should match the picture. I am still waiting for the replacement.


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## Omega (Jan 11, 2017)

Man, if they weren't so hard to find, I'd recommend a Konosuke HD2 Kiritsuke gyuto. I have one in 240 and 270, and it's basically exactly the profile of the first Masamoto picture you showed. It's a blended steel- semi-stainless and high carbon. But it's also monosteel. Really love how it feels.

That said, I wouldn't have any idea of where to point you to to get one : /


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 11, 2017)

"flat belly profile, or as much as possible."

I have no kiritsuke ... aren't at least the single bevel and non-shun types supposed to have a big section that is the usuba/sobakiri, passes a straightedge-and-lamp test, THUD on the board, kind of flat?


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 11, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "flat belly profile, or as much as possible."
> 
> I have no kiritsuke ... aren't at least the single bevel and non-shun types supposed to have a big section that is the usuba/sobakiri, passes a straightedge-and-lamp test, THUD on the board, kind of flat?



That's my expectation and what I thought I was getting in this rare flat double bevel. Whether or not it lives up to that expectation what I ended up receiving has no flat spots anywhere.


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## panda (Jan 11, 2017)

Man I'd be super pissed, send that sh*t back dude.
It looks like they took a half assed regular ks (but san mai) that wasn't finished and then cut the tip to k shape.


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## alterwisser (Jan 11, 2017)

If you don't mind a KU finish, the Moritaka is probably one of the K-Tip Gyutos with the flattest profile you can find...


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## ynot1985 (Jan 11, 2017)

I have tsujiki Masamoto double bevel Ktip gyuto.. it's pretty darn flat the profile


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## Ivang (Jan 12, 2017)

I have a kono Fuji w1 kiritsuke gyuto, it's not monosteel, but is pretty flat, is a 270 but it runs short. The level of f&f is excellent. They are very hard to come by though


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## foody518 (Jan 12, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> If you don't mind a KU finish, the Moritaka is probably one of the K-Tip Gyutos with the flattest profile you can find...



This guy? http://moritakahamonoen.ocnk.net/product/45


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## alterwisser (Jan 12, 2017)

foody518 said:


> This guy? http://moritakahamonoen.ocnk.net/product/45



Yep


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## buffhr (Jan 12, 2017)

To what do the moritaka knifes compare in finnish and edge retention? Those prices are incredibly low, might even get me to try importing a knife...


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## alterwisser (Jan 12, 2017)

buffhr said:


> To what do the moritaka knifes compare in finnish and edge retention? Those prices are incredibly low, might even get me to try importing a knife...



Can't say, I don't own one. I think I remember that people complained about grind issues? That it's "hit or miss", you can get a great or a crappy one.... maybe search the forum a bit?

The finish looks kind of rough. I wouldn't expect too much, especially not at that price ...


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## chinacats (Jan 12, 2017)

AS Moritaka is supposed to be better than 'normal' ones...I wouldn't risk either...such a crappy reputation they've developed over the years...


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## buffhr (Jan 12, 2017)

I did do a search but most of the top threads that came up are had 30+ pages and the ones who pointed out issued clearly seemed to date back awhile. But it did seem like grind issues were common just wanted to see if this was still relevant.


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## daveb (Jan 12, 2017)

If you come across a Moritaka with "issues", our own Dave Martell specializes in resolving them...:whistling:


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 12, 2017)

daveb said:


> If you come across a Moritaka with "issues", our own Dave Martell specializes in resolving them...:whistling:


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 12, 2017)

There is so much misinformation in this thread.

One, slicing knifes are not flat. Trying to impose your make believe dogmas about what you need in a knife on a traditional craftsperson is like standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself up by the handle.

Second, your ks gyuto is the only monosteel knife in the KS line excluding the petty and suji. Your bad for not reading. Kasumi is basically another way to say ni-mai and san-mai. KS honkasumi gyokuhakukou...

Third Koki probably took some convincing because it's probably folks like you who make him think twice about his exceptionally permissive return policy.

Cheers best of luck.


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## foody518 (Jan 12, 2017)

buffhr said:


> To what do the moritaka knifes compare in finnish and edge retention? Those prices are incredibly low, might even get me to try importing a knife...



Finish- rustic, expect it from the style and price. No eased, rounded, or polished spines and choils. I'm about to ease the left side of my knife's spine and choil because it dug after a longer prep session than I usually have. 
Edge retention - good. One of my better ones so far
It's a lower wide bevel. It *will* wedge in taller denser foods. It's good at cutting things that aren't those though


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## Ruso (Jan 12, 2017)

On JCK website it does not say that K tip gyuto is mono-steel. I understand that Koki's site can be confusing to browse, but.....


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 12, 2017)

@spoiledbroth there is a reason why I put a ? there, exactly because I do not understand how a kiritsuke is supposed to combine slicer (has profiled edge) and usuba (flat). And aren't there dead flat takobikis (or are they not slicing knives by the definition relevant here?)?


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

spoiledbroth said:


> There is so much misinformation in this thread.
> 
> One, slicing knifes are not flat. Trying to impose your make believe dogmas about what you need in a knife on a traditional craftsperson is like standing in a bucket and trying to lift yourself up by the handle.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the kind and well-thought response!

Never said slicing knives are flat buddy. I know what I like and some knives match that while others don't. Surprise! 

KS gyuto, petty, and suji: all double bevel, all monosteel. KS double-bevel kiritsuke.... hm wonder what that probably should be...


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

Ruso said:


> On JCK website it does not say that K tip gyuto is mono-steel. I understand that Koki's site can be confusing to browse, but.....



I knew I was taking a risk because of the lack of information but in the KS line the other double bevel knives, gyuto, petty, and suji, are all mono-steel. I assumed this one would be as well. Of course the _primary_ issue is that what I got was significantly different than what JCK implied I was getting.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 12, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @spoiledbroth there is a reason why I put a ? there, exactly because I do not understand how a kiritsuke is supposed to combine slicer (has profiled edge) and usuba (flat). And aren't there dead flat takobikis (or are they not slicing knives by the definition relevant here?)?



I've never seen one. They probably do exist, sure. But the design doesn't make alot of logical sense especially given the intended application.

I didn't mean to come off like a dick but I'm not really sure why bash Koki when it is actually mostly your fault. I wouldn't assume a knife has any kind of profile based on a photo. I can take three photos of a knife and make it look one way or another, as was recently evidenced by the tip on a shig gyuto was called out for being whale-like or something along those lines. Turns out it was just the lighting. 

Fine if you do t get what you were expecting but I'm not sure why you have to bash he vendor. Not that Koki needs defense his reputation is quite good.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

spoiledbroth said:


> I've never seen one. They probably do exist, sure. But the design doesn't make alot of logical sense especially given the intended application.
> 
> I didn't mean to come off like a dick but I'm not really sure why bash Koki when it is actually mostly your fault. I wouldn't assume a knife has any kind of profile based on a photo. I can take three photos of a knife and make it look one way or another, as was recently evidenced by the tip on a shig gyuto was called out for being whale-like or something along those lines. Turns out it was just the lighting.
> 
> Fine if you do t get what you were expecting but I'm not sure why you have to bash he vendor. Not that Koki needs defense his reputation is quite good.



Where am I bashing Koki? All I said that it took a while to get a refund. He even confirmed to me that what was sent did not match the description... let me find the quote.

From Koki to me via email:



> Today we have checked with Masamoto regarding the KS-1624 Kiritsuke 240mm.
> 
> Masamoto explains KS-1624 Kiritsuke 240mm has Double bevel edge (without Shinogi), so both Right Hander and Left Hander can use it without problem.
> 
> ...



The problem is that JCK doesn't sell the model they have listed which is not right. Beyond that I was surprised and disappointed by the changes but that's on Masamoto's end, not JCK. I immediately asked for a refund but it took some back and forth before it was offered to me.


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## malexthekid (Jan 12, 2017)

zapatodefuego said:


> Thanks for the kind and well-thought response!
> 
> Never said slicing knives are flat buddy. I know what I like and some knives match that while others don't. Surprise!
> 
> KS gyuto, petty, and suji: all double bevel, all monosteel. KS double-bevel kiritsuke.... hm wonder what that probably should be...



Whatever the maker wants to make it I think....


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## malexthekid (Jan 12, 2017)

zapatodefuego said:


> I knew I was taking a risk because of the lack of information but in the KS line the other double bevel knives, gyuto, petty, and suji, are all mono-steel. I assumed this one would be as well. Of course the _primary_ issue is that what I got was significantly different than what JCK implied I was getting.



You mean like in the opening line where he says it is hitatchi white steel forge welded with soft iron... and then proceed to also list the knife amongst the single bevels alluding to identical construction?

Oh and like how he makes specific mention on the 3 blades that are mono steel?


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> You mean like in the opening line where he says it is hitatchi white steel forge welded with soft iron... and then proceed to also list the knife amongst the single bevels alluding to identical construction?



What's your point? The site has missing information everywhere. I assumed this one was just missing the "Whole blades made of White #2" that's on the other double bevel KS knives. 

I'm not just pulling this out of my ass either. Everyone keeps trying to paint me the villain here but I did do my research and ask Korin to very that the knife I wanted, "KS double bevel mono-steel kiritsuke", did exist. They responded that it in fact does exist.

JCK later stated that the pictured knife is not mono-steel so that confused me. I assume that either someone at JCK or someone at Korin didn't understand my question or didn't see the mono-steel part.


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## foody518 (Jan 12, 2017)

It looks like the finish also changed. The old model picture looks like the blade is finished with vertical scratch pattern and the one that you got looks to have horizontal ones. Looks like your KS gyuto also is finished with vertical scratch pattern yes?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 12, 2017)

With vs without shinogi is certainly a difference where i would say "yes, I got a different product that described", given it needs a different sharpening technique etc.

But then... is a ryoba kiritsuke already a deviation from the traditional pattern, which would indeed put a knifemaker in the position where he can or probably SHOULD guess what other deviations make sense for the usage he assumes - "they said they'd rather not have it kataba, so they'll probably hate to get a usuba-style profile"?

Big ? again, I'm trying to understand not impose dogma here...


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## chinacats (Jan 12, 2017)

FWIW, it sounds like Koki is just trying to make you happy. The way I read it, the site shows a picture if the knife you received. BTW, I've had a full refund from him before and there were no problems...but understandably the refund didn't post until he received the knife. 

I kind of get your frustration but imo the solution is to buy the 3124 and enjoy it for what it is...or check out a Syousin (pretty sure I blew the spelling on that)...while not mono steel, it's pretty flat and cuts great...tip is lethal.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

@chinacats

Don't get me wrong Koki's been great and I figure its a small operation so stuff like this happening is not surprising but it sucks to be on the receiving end of it.

I've been looking at the Syousin a lot and will probably give that a try next.


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## labor of love (Jan 12, 2017)

The OP ordered a knife that had a shinogi (as seen in the picture) but recieved a knife that appears to be ground very differently. I guess we can dispute whether or not the shinogi and non shinogi have different profiles, but I think theyre obviously different. I would've returned my knife as well, it simply isn't the knife you ordered.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 12, 2017)

I have one made before the changes, and it is a very different blade from the one you got:




BTW, neither one has a shinogi line, as Koki states.

Did you get a saya with yours?


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## labor of love (Jan 12, 2017)

That pen tiger, he's like a library of congress, but for knives.


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## labor of love (Jan 12, 2017)

My mistake about shinogi-I took kokis word for it.


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## malexthekid (Jan 12, 2017)

zapatodefuego said:


> What's your point? The site has missing information everywhere. I assumed this one was just missing the "Whole blades made of White #2" that's on the other double bevel KS knives.
> 
> I'm not just pulling this out of my ass either. Everyone keeps trying to paint me the villain here but I did do my research and ask Korin to very that the knife I wanted, "KS double bevel mono-steel kiritsuke", did exist. They responded that it in fact does exist.
> 
> JCK later stated that the pictured knife is not mono-steel so that confused me. I assume that either someone at JCK or someone at Korin didn't understand my question or didn't see the mono-steel part.



My point is that no one is painting you as the villian but you are, yes you are, painting Koki as a villian... you list several complaints about the knife however everyone of them can be answeres with 2 seconds of research...

The profile is the only issue, which I personally still think is more similar to what you got than what Rick got based on that pic, but that's just my interpretation of the photo.

The key is in your reply, you assumed counter to what was written... and then predominantly got what the site said you would (except debatably profile).

No one wishes you bad but you say Koki was great... except everyone of your previous post laid blame solely at him... of course he is reluctant to offer a refund for a perfectly good knife which may have been used or sharpened and therefore is then unable to be resold.

You need to own your responsibility in this for assuming things that were just totally counter to the information given.... or instead of trying to build up a massive case against koki "swindling" you... you could have just said.. hey this knife doesn't appear to be tge same profile of the pic.. am I imagining this or what are your experience. 

I truly hope it works out for you and you get what you want in the end.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 12, 2017)

labor of love said:


> My mistake about shinogi-I took kokis word for it.



The lighting makes it look as if there was one, but it is just the way the convex grind reflects the light. Koki's reply was a little confusing until you realize that the "(no shinogi)" description is used where it might be construed to mean that one of the blades had a shinogi.


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## malexthekid (Jan 12, 2017)

Come on guys. Its pretty damn good for a guy whose primary language isn't english


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## schanop (Jan 12, 2017)

zapatodefuego said:


> First of all it's san mai which sets it apart from all other double bevel knives in the KS family and second the fit and finish is far inferior to the KS gyuto.



Masamoto has a sanmai KS gyuto, model number is KS 2924 for 240mm one. Here is an older thread about it: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...o-KS-2924-Wa-Gyuto-(San-Mai)-anyone-tried-one

They (Masamoto) probably use different craftmens for their mono steel KS and san mai KS.

My take for this kiritsuke is that it probably is their san-mai gyuto with the nose chopped off to look like a kiritsuke tip. Edge profile looks pretty much like a typical gyuto.


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## labor of love (Jan 12, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> The lighting makes it look as if there was one, but it is just the way the convex grind reflects the light. Koki's reply was a little confusing until you realize that the "(no shinogi)" description is used where it might be construed to mean that one of the blades had a shinogi.



Yep. Makes sense.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 12, 2017)

Maybe there was an even earlier version (neither sold nor in the photo) that had a shinogi, and he was referring to that?


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## labor of love (Jan 12, 2017)

Or maybe koki is clarifying the OP intentionally ordered a k tip Gyuto as opposed to an actual kiritsuke that should always have a shinogi. Koki repeats that it is double bevel edge.


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## bkultra (Jan 12, 2017)

schanop said:


> Masamoto has a sanmai KS gyuto, model number is KS 2924 for 240mm one. Here is an older thread about it: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...o-KS-2924-Wa-Gyuto-(San-Mai)-anyone-tried-one
> 
> They (Masamoto) probably use different craftmens for their mono steel KS and san mai KS.
> 
> My take for this kiritsuke is that it probably is their san-mai gyuto with the nose chopped off to look like a kiritsuke tip. Edge profile looks pretty much like a typical gyuto.



I also agree with this. Its probably why the production of the mono KS and Honyaki stopped around the same time and yet the clad knives were still produced.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> I have one made before the changes, and it is a very different blade from the one you got:
> 
> View attachment 34203
> 
> ...



Hey, that's the knife they don't make anymore! The new version I got did come with a saya.


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## labor of love (Jan 12, 2017)

bkultra said:


> I also agree with this. Its probably why the production of the mono KS and Honyaki stopped around the same time and yet the clad knives were still produced.



Reg mono ks is no longer in production?


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 12, 2017)

I didn't mean to jump on the original poster, sorry man

I just communicate with Koki quite regularly and he has on more than one occasion shipped me replacement knives or issued a refund before I have sent the original back, which to me says alot. Granted it may be due to my low knife budget and extensive communication with Koki even regarding banal stuff (what do you like to cook etc). I'm assuming nobody would expose a higher priced knife to that liability but... That's why I buy cheaper knives


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> My point is that no one is painting you as the villian but you are, yes you are, painting Koki as a villian... you list several complaints about the knife however everyone of them can be answeres with 2 seconds of research...
> 
> The profile is the only issue, which I personally still think is more similar to what you got than what Rick got based on that pic, but that's just my interpretation of the photo.
> 
> ...



You seem to have a different version of history than I do. I read through all of my responses and can't find any reference to me saying "swindling". 

Here's what I did say, for your records:



zapatodefuego said:


> For what it's worth JapaneseChefKnives has offered a full refund but getting them to agree to this took a bit of convincing. They also offered a small discount if I were to keep the knife but it was paltry in comparison to the total cost. I haven't returned it yet but I can't imagine I won't eventually.



And that's true. I asked for a refund right away but their initial response was to offer a discount. Not saying that's bad or anything like that but its what happened and its also such an insignificant point that people are focusing on for some reason.



malexthekid said:


> except everyone of your previous post laid blame solely at him



Where? Where's this so called case I'm building up against Koki? 

Is this it?



zapatodefuego said:


> The problem is that JCK doesn't sell the model they have listed which is not right.



That's a pretty fair point, no? What else? Nothing. Read my post history and see for yourself if you feel so inclined. 

Somewhere in the world a seller made a simple mistake and took responsibility for it. End of story. This post was to rant a bit and then ask for suggestions which I got from some very helpful people.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Reg mono ks is no longer in production?



Say what!? That thing is in crazy demand though.


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 12, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Or maybe koki is clarifying the OP intentionally ordered a k tip Gyuto as opposed to an actual kiritsuke that should always have a shinogi. Koki repeats that it is double bevel edge.



I'm not entirely sure what he meant either. If it helps any the item I ordered is KS1624 from this page: http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KSSeriesHonKasumiGyokuhakukou.html#KSSeries


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 13, 2017)

"I read through all of my responses and can't find any reference to me saying "swindling"."

Probably regional interpretation of english language ... in an area where british-ish understatement-ish-ness is common, "took a bit of convincing" can probably be interpreted as "was staunchly unwilling to, and had to be forced into submission using repeated substantial threats"


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## malexthekid (Jan 13, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "I read through all of my responses and can't find any reference to me saying "swindling"."
> 
> Probably regional interpretation of english language ... in an area where british-ish understatement-ish-ness is common, "took a bit of convincing" can probably be interpreted as "was staunchly unwilling to, and had to be forced into submission using repeated substantial threats"



What the heck are you talking about.


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## labor of love (Jan 20, 2017)

I just noticed a double bevel kiritsuke by sukenari that appears to have a very flat profile if the OP is still searching for a replacement knife http://japanesechefsknife.com/SukenariHonKasumiWSeries.html#SUKEHK


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## zapatodefuego (Jan 20, 2017)

labor of love said:


> I just noticed a double bevel kiritsuke by sukenari that appears to have a very flat profile if the OP is still searching for a replacement knife http://japanesechefsknife.com/SukenariHonKasumiWSeries.html#SUKEHK



Thanks for the heads up. I did see that knife before and considered buying it and I still might.


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## guari (Jan 20, 2017)

I got the fu-rin-ka-zan black handle sukenari kiritsuke from jck and I'm really happy with it. 

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SPECIALS.html


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