# Shigefusa/Kato/Watanabe -- Why all the fuss?



## naifu (Aug 24, 2017)

I think we thoroughly vetted the fascination with Honyaki knives. I have a similar question for Shigs/Katos/Watanabes -- why are they so popular? Again, I am new to Japanese Chef Knives, so please forgive my ignorance, but it appears that these are popular because some really old guy who is still making knives the way his father taught him many years ago results in knives which are extremely desirable, collectable, and rare, such that they fly off the shelf at a very high price.

These are Japanese knives, made from carbon steel. Why pay $700 or more for such a knife and wait 6 to 18 months for one, when you can buy something comparable? If there is nothing comparable, why is that? Every other knife maker must desire infinite demand for their knives, and so why couldn't another knife crafter copy the design?

I have to imagine that there is a collectible value tied to the demand and cost of shigs/katos/watanabes/etc., just like say a very rare baseball card or stamp. These knives cannot be twice or three times as good as many other good carbon steel knives which are readily available for far less money, right? 

I understand supply and demand, collectible value, etc. What I am asking, are these knives really so much better than other knives that cost less? I once visited a wine and liquor store in Las Vegas where they were selling old scotch whiskey for up to $40,000 USD. Someone is going to buy it, and I have to admit I am curious whether there is a 1000x difference between a 40k bottle of scotch and a 40 dollar bottle, but I am pretty sure there is only a small difference in actual taste and satisfaction.

One more question -- are shigs/katos/watanabes actually better in all cases, or do they sometimes fall short of their reputation?


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## Anton (Aug 24, 2017)

There are 3-4 threads on this already, some active.


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## StonedEdge (Aug 24, 2017)

Long story short: exclusivity (much more demand than supply), quality of grind, art-like blade geometry, and the fact that the makers are aging.


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## Chef Doom (Aug 24, 2017)

You would be suprised at how different an extra $200 or $300 will be on knives made by the same maker let alone between 2 different craftsmen.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 24, 2017)

I wouldn't put Watanabe-san in that pot as his products are more available. It doesn't change the fact that his blades are awesome. Harder than most, easy to sharpen, and most importantly, cut very well.

Kato is not my cup of tea. Something related to its balance. I can't deny it cuts very well too.

I like Shigs and would get more if it weren't so expensive and unavailable. They sharpen very fast and, and ,at least the ones i used, cut very well. Not taking into account the great f&f, specially if you are into polishing. In my opinion Shigs deserve their reputation, but that's only my opinion.

As with everything, there are diminishing returns for things charged a premium. Also, like you said, supply and demand is a factor here.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 24, 2017)

I'm still sort of stuck on the fact that these knives apparently are geometrically unstable over time.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 24, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> I'm still sort of stuck on the fact that these knives apparently are geometrically unstable over time.



Would you care to develop the thought?


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## labor of love (Aug 24, 2017)

Kato/shig are just very unique knives, if there were more knives that shared the attributes of kato and shig then perhaps they wouldn't be so popular, or atleast more readily available.


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## fatboylim (Aug 24, 2017)

Unique sums it up well. 

1. Shigafusa - amazing sharp Iwasaki steel with the ultimate fit and finish, especially the Kitaeji 
2. Kato - pinnacle of a heavy weight knife but the 240mm and above can be a beast to tame. Great food release and some get the honyaki feedback on the boards which can be addictive. 
3. Watanabe - heavy weight knive that takes a beating and keeps going. For the price a good balance between between quality and finish. 

Only my way of thinking about it. Please note: the only knive I haven't used is the Shigafusa.


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## JohnnyChance (Aug 24, 2017)

Something has to be the most popular, right? These things change, we as a community go through phases. Lasers used to be all the rage, now Shiges and Katos. It will ebb and flow again.


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## Ruso (Aug 24, 2017)

JohnnyChance said:


> Something has to be the most popular, right? These things change, we as a community go through phases. Lasers used to be all the rage, now Shiges and Katos. It will ebb and flow again.



I tend to agree with the above. "Flavour of the month" type of things. Not trying to diminish Shigs and Katos, but thier price and availability are ridiculous now. 

I also would not put Watanabe anywhere close to the other two hype-wise.


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## labor of love (Aug 24, 2017)

I tend not to agree with "flavor of the month". The demand for shigafusa and Kato knives have been steadily increasing year after year after year. The demand far outweighs the supply so the knives command a higher price every month. They aren't going out of style anytime soon.


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## Anton (Aug 24, 2017)

Also 

Aside from making a very good knife.

Let's not forget the forums/members growth, shigs have always been popular now there's just more of us wanting them.

I guarantee not other better sales vehicle than this forum for some of these makers


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## naifu (Aug 24, 2017)

Ruso said:


> I also would not put Watanabe anywhere close to the other two hype-wise.



My mistake -- I did not know they were not as popular.


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## dwalker (Aug 24, 2017)

naifu said:


> My mistake -- I did not know they were not as popular.


I wouldn't say Watanabe isn't as popular. I bet he sells more knives than Shig and Kato combined. The difference is, you can get them so there is not the mad dash to purchase whenever one turns up. Maybe if Watanabe made only a small percentage of what he does now, and double his prices, he would deserve to be on this list as well. [emoji14]


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## labor of love (Aug 24, 2017)

dwalker said:


> I wouldn't say Watanabe isn't as popular. I bet he sells more knives than Shig and Kato combined. The difference is, you can get them so there is not the mad dash to purchase whenever one turns up. Maybe if Watanabe made only a small percentage of what he does now, and double his prices, he would deserve to be on this list as well. [emoji14]



Or you could just get a Toyama &#128512;


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## dwalker (Aug 24, 2017)

I have 2 Toyama knives and will probably get some more soon enough. That is a brand that won't be around much longer either. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, performance is better than the Kato. There is no comparing the fit and finish either. The Toyama blows the Kato away in that regard. At least that is my experience with the one Kato I've used. Small sample size so I'm probably way off base.


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## labor of love (Aug 24, 2017)

Yeah that was my original point from the first page. Kato and shig are highly sought after for their uniqueness. The way we determine performance can vary but I don't think it's necessarily tied to a higher price tag.


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## naifu (Aug 24, 2017)

dwalker said:


> I have 2 Toyama knives and will probably get some more soon enough. That is a brand that won't be around much longer either. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, performance is better than the Kato. There is no comparing the fit and finish either. The Toyama blows the Kato away in that regard. At least that is my experience with the one Kato I've used. Small sample size so I'm probably way off base.



I purchased five last month when they were on sale -- two gyotos, a deba, a sujihiki, and a petty. I am very pleased with the quality of these ... and the price.


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## Badgertooth (Aug 24, 2017)

For Kato and Shig.. the fuss is directly proportionate the huge froth and disparity between supply and demand. Both, subjectively, are good performers. 

Watanabe, the "fuss" is more linked to the fairly constant stream of praise for how they perform and feel and how nice Sin is to deal with. But you could buy one tomorrow if you wanted, there is no disparity between supply and demand.

Dwalker has highlighted something interesting. Consider Toyama. It is, for the purpose of this hypothesis, "identical" to a Kasumi Watanabe (let's ignore real subtleties and nuance). He is in his 80's and will conceivably retire soon. This will effectively pull up the handbreak on production and supply while the demand may remain constant. I'd put a fair wager on people going doolally for them when the supply is cut off. We're funny but predictable like that even in the face of obtaining a near identical Watanabe, people will be setting up "Toyama alerts" and hustling on BST etc


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## fujiyama (Aug 24, 2017)

labor of love said:


> I tend not to agree with "flavor of the month". The demand for shigafusa and Kato knives have been steadily increasing year after year after year. The demand far outweighs the supply so the knives command a higher price every month. They aren't going out of style anytime soon.



They are taking advantage of the market, which is us. Smart business, bad ethics. Why support them?

Because we're materialistic.

Edit.. Not sure why I quoted you


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## labor of love (Aug 24, 2017)

I mean, I've never had a problem buying something if I felt the price was unfair. I'm playing the shig sweepstakes but not as seriously as some others. I think ootb shigs are priced appropriately. Those makers aren't going increase production simply because demand increases if they don't want to.


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## StonedEdge (Aug 24, 2017)

I certainly hope that when retailers bump the pricing on hot ticket items like Kato and Shigefusa, that the makers get a bigger piece of the pie as well. 

On another note, why will Toyama not be around muxh longer? Been eyeing a deba and petty may have to jump on that if there's any substance to that.


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## ynot1985 (Aug 24, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I certainly hope that when retailers bump the pricing on hot ticket items like Kato and Shigefusa, that the makers get a bigger piece of the pie as well.



I doubt it .. most of the crazy price increases are in the secondary market where the price it sells for has no benefit to the maker.

You will find that most overseas online reseller of shigs and kato mark it up about 25-40 % more than reseller stores in Japan. I have brought 7 of my 8 katos directly from Japan either online or in person so I have a fair gauge on what they cost in Japan.


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## StonedEdge (Aug 24, 2017)

Wonder how the makers feel about that


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## Anton (Aug 24, 2017)

ynot1985 said:


> I doubt it .. most of the crazy price increases are in the secondary market where the price it sells for has no benefit to the maker.
> 
> You will find that most overseas online reseller of shigs and kato mark it up about 25-40 % more than reseller stores in Japan. I have brought 7 of my 8 katos directly from Japan either online or in person so I have a fair gauge on what they cost in Japan.



Yup - 100%.


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## labor of love (Aug 24, 2017)

Jns recently sold a shig 240mm kasumi gyuto for $550, maybe a little less. For the labor, materials, quality and reputation of the product I still think they're very worth it.
Someone also just sold a non Damascus kato 210 gyuto in bst for like $800, I think that's pretty nuts.


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## inzite (Aug 24, 2017)

supply and demand and rarity. If only 1 i would go hand picked denka.


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## Anton (Aug 24, 2017)

inzite said:


> supply and demand and rarity. If only 1 i would go hand picked denka.



Ha.! selling it hard.... 

RT tp TKO are under $600 these days...


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## Anton (Aug 24, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Jns recently sold a shig 240mm kasumi gyuto for $550, maybe a little less. For the labor, materials, quality and reputation of the product I still think they're very worth it.
> Someone also just sold a non Damascus kato 210 gyuto in bst for like $800, I think that's pretty nuts.



That was a new level. Nuts


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## inzite (Aug 24, 2017)

Anton said:


> Ha.! selling it hard....
> 
> RT tp TKO are under $600 these days...



haha all worth it!!


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## ynot1985 (Aug 24, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Jns recently sold a shig 240mm kasumi gyuto for $550, maybe a little less. For the labor, materials, quality and reputation of the product I still think they're very worth it.
> Someone also just sold a non Damascus kato 210 gyuto in bst for like $800, I think that's pretty nuts.



Yep.. I would consider a fair price for a Damascus 210 to be 810-900.. this non WH was sold about that.. definitely ***


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## malexthekid (Aug 25, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> For Kato and Shig.. the fuss is directly proportionate the huge froth and disparity between supply and demand. Both, subjectively, are good performers.
> 
> Watanabe, the "fuss" is more linked to the fairly constant stream of praise for how they perform and feel and how nice Sin is to deal with. But you could buy one tomorrow if you wanted, there is no disparity between supply and demand.
> 
> Dwalker has highlighted something interesting. Consider Toyama. It is, for the purpose of this hypothesis, "identical" to a Kasumi Watanabe (let's ignore real subtleties and nuance). He is in his 80's and will conceivably retire soon. This will effectively pull up the handbreak on production and supply while the demand may remain constant. I'd put a fair wager on people going doolally for them when the supply is cut off. We're funny but predictable like that even in the face of obtaining a near identical Watanabe, people will be setting up "Toyama alerts" and hustling on BST etc


Maybe i need to jump on board ASAP... fathers day gift? Haha


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## Anton (Aug 25, 2017)

I still think, watanabe is better than Toyama and you can fairly "customize" a knife, clad, non clad, etc.


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## dwalker (Aug 25, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I certainly hope that when retailers bump the pricing on hot ticket items like Kato and Shigefusa, that the makers get a bigger piece of the pie as well.
> 
> On another note, why will Toyama not be around muxh longer? Been eyeing a deba and petty may have to jump on that if there's any substance to that.


Toyama is in his 80s, has no apprentice, does 100% of the work himself. Forging, grinding, finishing, and sharpening all done by him. There is no one to carry on when he retires.


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## labor of love (Aug 25, 2017)

With the shig line we atleast have the yoshihide line that can hopefully remain and maybe become more available after Tokifusa retires.


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## bryan03 (Aug 25, 2017)

dwalker said:


> I have 2 Toyama knives and will probably get some more soon enough. That is a brand that won't be around much longer either. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, performance is better than the Kato. There is no comparing the fit and finish either. The Toyama blows the Kato away in that regard. At least that is my experience with the one Kato I've used. Small sample size so I'm probably way off base.





> Japanese Natural Stones
> 
> Price increase on all Toyama Knives from next month approx. 10 % Good idea to get them this month



:laugh:


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## khashy (Aug 25, 2017)

ynot1985 said:


> Yep.. I would consider a fair price for a Damascus 210 to be 810-900.. this non WH was sold about that.. definitely ***



I can guarantee you that south of 1k for any size dammy is never going to happen.

Tosho had something on about Kato not making anymore dammys, I've seen a few come through since but the prices are not coming down :-/


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Aug 25, 2017)

I'm pretty sure there's some kind of secret law in down under that forces its citizens to buy every Shigefusa they see for sale. That's the only reasonable explanation why 90% of all Shigefusa knives ends up in Australia. And it looks like they are just a collectors items just check BST and you'll see those "never used/never sharpened" descriptions.


I had a 210 Shig back in the day. In was a drawer queen. I loved fit and finish of that knife. Polished the hell out of those kasumi clouds. But lets face it  it was just an average cutter. Super reactive cladding and just a very-very average cutting performance. So it went to BST for around 300$. That was 2 years ago or so. I still believe that's the fair price for a 210 kasumi Shig. Maybe 350-400$ in new condition, not more. 

Then I attended JNS gathering and handles tons of different Shigs and Kato. Other members of gathering raved about Katos and I couldn't really understand all the fuss, but decided to grab a 180 gyuto. It ended up being one of my all time favourites. The fit and finish of kasumi Kato aren't as good as Shige, but still very respectable (and definitely much better than Watanabe). And its just a very good cutters. One of the best. 

So in my eyes Shigs are drawer queens and Katos are cutting machines.


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 25, 2017)

ICAN, I agree with your assessment of Kato and Shig to an extent. The Shig samples I have (180 G, 210G, 180 KU Santoku) are good cutters, but do take a little time to get the feel of but cut with authority and HT's really good. Both brands are reactive as hell until patina sets in, some people don't like patina.

I'd love to get a 180 G Kato. Really one of the last knives I want to add to my kit. 




icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I'm pretty sure there's some kind of secret law in down under that forces its citizens to buy every Shigefusa they see for sale. That's the only reasonable explanation why 90% of all Shigefusa knives ends up in Australia. And it looks like they are just a collectors items just check BST and you'll see those "never used/never sharpened" descriptions.
> 
> 
> I had a 210 Shig back in the day. In was a drawer queen. I loved fit and finish of that knife. Polished the hell out of those kasumi clouds. But lets face it  it was just an average cutter. Super reactive cladding and just a very-very average cutting performance. So it went to BST for around 300$. That was 2 years ago or so. I still believe that's the fair price for a 210 kasumi Shig. Maybe 350-400$ in new condition, not more.
> ...


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## Jkts (Aug 25, 2017)

Interesting how the limited supply increases desirability of katos and shigs, by all accounts great knives. I find it hard to locate one for sale, just to satisfy my curiosity about how good they are.

Watanabe is a totally different situation- he's a sixth generation knifesmith in his mid-forties. He deals directly with the customer, so it cuts out the middleman or retailer. His standard knives are readily available and his custom knives take about 2-4 months.

I love his custom knives- you can specify the steel and handle (within his options), length, thickness, etc. Because you are not limited only to what's on the market, you can negotiate for the knife you want.

I've been curious about the shig kitaeji nakiri - but I never see them available... I'm sure these are all great knives- will the differences at this quality level make a difference on our cooking? If not, what drives this obsession?


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## OliverNuther (Aug 25, 2017)

Honyaki and now Shigs and Katos? 

Just curious OP, but as a kid were you the one started trouble in the schoolyard and then disappeared and let everyone else get in trouble for fighting?&#128578;


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## Ruso (Aug 25, 2017)

Few years ago I had a 210Kato in my hand and could of buy it for less than $500 CAD. And I though, 210 is rather small, I will wait till 240 is in stock. I am still waiting


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## Anton (Aug 25, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Honyaki and now Shigs and Katos?
> 
> Just curious OP, but as a kid were you the one started trouble in the schoolyard and then disappeared and let everyone else get in trouble for fighting?&#128578;



Makes sense now


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## valgard (Aug 25, 2017)

Ruso said:


> Few years ago I had a 210Kato in my hand and could of buy it for less than $500 CAD. And I though, 210 is rather small, I will wait till 240 is in stock. I am still waiting



you snooze you lose


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## naifu (Aug 25, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Honyaki and now Shigs and Katos?
> 
> Just curious OP, but as a kid were you the one started trouble in the schoolyard and then disappeared and let everyone else get in trouble for fighting?&#128578;



Ha ha. No, that is not me. I am genuinely curious about what I might be missing, however even if I am missing something, I realize that I need more experience sharpening and cutting before I can fully appreciate something really exclusive. Right now I already have more knives than I need and I jumped ahead and bought five Toyamas because they were discounted 15%, but mostly because I have the knife bug myself.


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## OliverNuther (Aug 25, 2017)

Just messing with you mate. I'm jealous of your Toyamas though; one of them is next on my list.


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## Ruso (Aug 25, 2017)

valgard said:


> you snooze you lose


Mean.


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## valgard (Aug 25, 2017)

Ruso said:


> Mean.



[emoji23] guilty as charged


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## ynot1985 (Aug 25, 2017)

Ruso said:


> Few years ago I had a 210Kato in my hand and could of buy it for less than $500 CAD. And I though, 210 is rather small, I will wait till 240 is in stock. I am still waiting



U still can if you are waiting to wait.. I'm sure I already told you where to look before


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## panda (Aug 26, 2017)

watanabe/toyama hype is warranted, dont think shig/kato so much. shig has going for it f&f and steel, kato has great steel both have great handles. but grind and profiles? ehhh


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## krx927 (Aug 29, 2017)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I'm pretty sure there's some kind of secret law in down under that forces its citizens to buy every Shigefusa they see for sale. That's the only reasonable explanation why 90% of all Shigefusa knives ends up in Australia. And it looks like they are just a collectors items just check BST and you'll see those "never used/never sharpened" descriptions.
> 
> 
> I had a 210 Shig back in the day. In was a drawer queen. I loved fit and finish of that knife. Polished the hell out of those kasumi clouds. But lets face it  it was just an average cutter. Super reactive cladding and just a very-very average cutting performance. So it went to BST for around 300$. That was 2 years ago or so. I still believe that's the fair price for a 210 kasumi Shig. Maybe 350-400$ in new condition, not more.
> ...



Exactly my experience. Kato blows Shig away in the cutting category.


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## Badgertooth (Aug 29, 2017)

krx927 said:


> Exactly my experience. Kato blows Shig away in the cutting category.



Chzbrgr truthbombs


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## BlueSteel (Aug 29, 2017)

krx927 said:


> Exactly my experience. Kato blows Shig away in the cutting category.



Exact opposite here. My Shig 270 kasumi is one of my very best cutters - simply a great knife. My Kato 240 (non-workhorse) is one of my worst knives, and is also extremely reactive which is a PITA...much moreso than the Shig.

Those are the only knives from each maker I've ever tried, but I own them both so I know these examples well. My view might change if I tried other examples of these knives, but based off my present ownership, the Shig slays the Kato in every way.

Cheers,
Blair


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## BlueSteel (Aug 29, 2017)

All this Toyama love convinced me to order a 270 gyuto from JNS...and also Badgertooth's video of his monster 270 destroying scallions...looked so fun!!!

Cheers,
Blair


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## labor of love (Aug 29, 2017)

BlueSteel said:


> All this Toyama love convinced me to order a 270 gyuto from JNS...and also Badgertooth's video of his monster 270 destroying scallions...looked so fun!!!
> 
> Cheers,
> Blair


That was a good move, as much as I liked both Toyama 240mm gyutos that I owned I wished they were 270mm.


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## BlueSteel (Aug 29, 2017)

labor of love said:


> That was a good move, as much as I liked both Toyama 240mm gyutos that I owned I wished they were 270mm.



Awesome - thanks for that...I was very torn between the 240 and the 270...flip-flopped a few times. Oddly, the 270 is cheaper than the 240 by almost $10 at JNS. The 270 is more blade all around, being both longer and higher at the heel. I don't understand the pricing, but since I tend to enjoy 270s a lot, the lower price made it an easier choice!

Cheers,
Blair


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## inzite (Aug 29, 2017)

BlueSteel said:


> Exact opposite here. My Shig 270 kasumi is one of my very best cutters - simply a great knife. My Kato 240 (non-workhorse) is one of my worst knives, and is also extremely reactive which is a PITA...much moreso than the Shig.
> 
> Those are the only knives from each maker I've ever tried, but I own them both so I know these examples well. My view might change if I tried other examples of these knives, but based off my present ownership, the Shig slays the Kato in every way.
> 
> ...



i would say both are just as reactive lol, they cut in diff ways with the 270 being thinner overall i think., shig, denka, kato are all impressive, if only one then denka, stainless clad, hard and stiff with insane edge retention rivaling r2.


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## HPoirot (Aug 30, 2017)

Damn. I bought the 240 without checking the 270. 

But oh well, as a home cook, 240 is plenty. 

On an unrelated note, i jumped directly into Toyama as a replacement for my first proper knife (an SS Sugimoto) after reading all the reviews on KKF. So i have a feeling i have nowhere left to go but down.


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## labor of love (Aug 30, 2017)

HPoirot said:


> Damn. I bought the 240 without checking the 270.
> 
> But oh well, as a home cook, 240 is plenty.
> 
> On an unrelated note, i jumped directly into Toyama as a replacement for my first proper knife (an SS Sugimoto) after reading all the reviews on KKF. So i have a feeling i have nowhere left to go but down.


Yeah don't worry about it &#128578;. Go with whatever size makes sense for you. My reasoning for wanting a 270mm is that Toyama can just plow through veg with ease, it's the kinda knife that makes me want to line up rows of celery stalk halves so I can see how many Toyama can comfortably handle at once.


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## Badgertooth (Aug 30, 2017)

BlueSteel said:


> All this Toyama love convinced me to order a 270 gyuto from JNS...and also Badgertooth's video of his monster 270 destroying scallions...looked so fun!!!
> 
> Cheers,
> Blair



I don't want to overhype it as that will invariably lead to disappointment but it's a knife that always impresses me when i come back to it and I always come back to it. It's a lot of knife, it makes my 270 Kato feel effete and ladylike.


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## krx927 (Aug 30, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> I don't want to overhype it as that will invariably lead to disappointment but it's a knife that always impresses me when i come back to it and I always come back to it. It's a lot of knife, it makes my 270 Kato feel effete and ladylike.



Good point about overhype - this happened with me and Shigs. When I got it I was a bit dissapointed as I was expecting even more: both in terms of finishing and cutting. I could accept the finishing after some time as really being top, but cutting was never good...


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## naifu (Aug 30, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> I don't want to overhype it as that will invariably lead to disappointment but it's a knife that always impresses me when i come back to it and I always come back to it. It's a lot of knife, it makes my 270 Kato feel effete and ladylike.



I agree on the Toyama 270 Gyuto, although I don't have a 270 Kato to compare.  The 180 Deba is my favorite Toyama. Fit and finish is perfection, and the edge is razor sharp.


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## FoRdLaz (Aug 30, 2017)

Ended up buying a Tojiro 270mm gyuto today as well! Was far too tempted after reading above posts!


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## BlueSteel (Aug 30, 2017)

Well, the Toyama 270 and 240 gyuto are both showing as out of stock at JNS right now. Being the 30th of August, I'm wondering if this is related to the warning about a 10%+ price increase after this month (ie. maybe the sale listings are being revised instead of both being out of stock)?

Cheers,
Blair


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 30, 2017)

BlueSteel said:


> Well, the Toyama 270 and 240 gyuto are both showing as out of stock at JNS right now. Being the 30th of August, I'm wondering if this is related to the warning about a 10%+ price increase after this month (ie. maybe the sale listings are being revised instead of both being out of stock)?
> 
> Cheers,
> Blair



Maksim doesn't play games like that.

It's more likely that the announcement of the price increase caused anyone on the fence about buying one to place an order.


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## labor of love (Aug 30, 2017)

No. When maxim restocked the 270mm a few days ago there were only 3 or 4 restocked. I thought about grabbing one, but the 10% price increase really isn't that big of a deal and he's always having store sales anyway.


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## Choppin (Aug 30, 2017)

HPoirot said:


> On an unrelated note, i jumped directly into Toyama as a replacement for my first proper knife (an SS Sugimoto) after reading all the reviews on KKF. So i have a feeling i have nowhere left to go but down.



+1. (Again, not to overhype, but...) Every knife I got after my Toyamas (with the exception of Kato) made me wonder why didn't I just get another Toyama instead.. 

I wonder if we are approaching a "Toyama alert" scenario after Maksim's email about price increase and more limited production...


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## labor of love (Aug 30, 2017)

Choppin said:


> +1. (Again, not to overhype, but...) Every knife I got after my Toyamas (with the exception of Kato) made me wonder why didn't I just get another Toyama instead..
> 
> I wonder if we are approaching a "Toyama alert" scenario after Maksim's email about price increase and more limited production...



Nah. I'll just back to watanabe again.


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## BlueSteel (Aug 30, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Maksim doesn't play games like that.
> 
> It's more likely that the announcement of the price increase caused anyone on the fence about buying one to place an order.



I certainly was not implying anything untoward. He warned of a price increase after the month, and there is only one day left in the month...I imagine he is working on revised online listings/pricing for Toyamas already...normal business. 

But I agree it is more likely that his heads-up about the impending price increase caused those on the fence to jump in (frankly it did push me to order when I did) and led to certain knives selling out. This makes sense especially with LOL's info that he only had a handful of 270s in stock.

Cheers,
Blair


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## FoRdLaz (Aug 31, 2017)

FoRdLaz said:


> Ended up buying a Tojiro 270mm gyuto today as well! Was far too tempted after reading above posts!



*edit* dunno what I was thinking when posting - meant to say Toyama 270


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## Marek07 (Aug 31, 2017)

FoRdLaz said:


> *edit* dunno what I was thinking when posting - meant to say Toyama 270


Well that's a relief. I was puzzled by your Tojiro decision.


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## BlueSteel (Aug 31, 2017)

Toyama 270 just arrived for me at my office - what a lovely beast! Measures at 275mm long heel-to-tip and 58mm at the heel. Substantial heft, but I'll have to get home to the scale. Seems razor sharp OOTB, but only tested on paper...will need to get it home to let it loose on food.

Should comment on the crazy fast delivery time from JNS...only 2.5 days from order placement to delivery of the knife to me in Canada!!! Fantastic.

Cheers,
Blair


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## K813zra (Aug 31, 2017)

BlueSteel said:


> Toyama 270 just arrived for me at my office - what a lovely beast! Measures at 275mm long heel-to-tip and 58mm at the heel. Substantial heft, but I'll have to get home to the scale. Seems razor sharp OOTB, but only tested on paper...will need to get it home to let it loose on food.
> 
> Should comment on the crazy fast delivery time from JNS...only 2.5 days from order placement to delivery of the knife to me in Canada!!! Fantastic.
> 
> ...



Now go decapitate some unicorns with that beast! Good lord, that is a big knife. I would think about getting one in 180...:rofl2: Seriously though, enjoy your new knife.


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## BlueSteel (Aug 31, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Now go decapitate some unicorns with that beast! Good lord, that is a big knife. I would think about getting one in 180...:rofl2: Seriously though, enjoy your new knife.



LOL - indeed...the kind of knife that makes you look for huge things to cut!!! I guess gyuto translates to "cow sword"...this could be one!

Cheers,
Blair


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## XooMG (Sep 1, 2017)

I wish people would stop translating gyuto as "cow sword".


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## panda (Sep 1, 2017)

now i'm going to get everybody to call it cow sword


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## Mute-on (Sep 1, 2017)

Is butcher's knife or chef's knife more accurate?

(I do like cow sword, but I'd never say it out loud )


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## BlueSteel (Sep 1, 2017)

XooMG said:


> I wish people would stop translating gyuto as "cow sword".



I don't speak the language - it seems very few on this Board do. I was quoting Knifewear. I thought they might be reliable on this point. 

https://knifewear.com/collections/gyuto

It would be helpful if you tell us what the problem is with that translation and what you say is a better translation. 

Cheers,
Blair


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## BlueSteel (Sep 1, 2017)

XooMG said:


> I wish people would stop translating gyuto as "cow sword".



This from zknives.com...is this right, or also wrong?

_"Exact origins and design purposes are unclear, but some believe Gyuto originally was designed for cutting large slices of beef. Several sources translate Gyuto as Cow Sword, which is incorrect. To isn't sword in Japanese. So, more accurate translation would be Cow Blade."_

Cheers,
Blair


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## dwalker (Sep 1, 2017)

Some sites translate it to bovine knife


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## K813zra (Sep 1, 2017)

I don't understand the need to translate at all. I am multi lingual and I realize that sometimes things just don't translate well, which is why we have interpreters. We all understand that a gyuto, for all intent purposes, is a multi purpose knife similar to a European chefs knife.


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## XooMG (Sep 1, 2017)

BlueSteel said:


> This from zknives.com...is this right, or also wrong?
> 
> _"Exact origins and design purposes are unclear, but some believe Gyuto originally was designed for cutting large slices of beef. Several sources translate Gyuto as Cow Sword, which is incorrect. To isn't sword in Japanese. So, more accurate translation would be Cow Blade."_
> 
> ...


Most sources that communities like this rely on have their problems but zknives seems correct in this case. &#20992; covers a pretty big range of bladed implements (particularly those with a single edge) which includes swords, knives, razors, etc.

However there are plenty of words and idioms where the character is used more clearly to mean sword. I suppose that is where the confusion comes in, combined with the fact that most other kitchen knife designs don't use &#20992; in their names.


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## BlueSteel (Sep 1, 2017)

XooMG said:


> Most sources that communities like this rely on have their problems but zknives seems correct in this case. &#20992; covers a pretty big range of bladed implements (particularly those with a single edge) which includes swords, knives, razors, etc.
> 
> However there are plenty of words and idioms where the character is used more clearly to mean sword. I suppose that is where the confusion comes in, combined with the fact that most other kitchen knife designs don't use &#20992; in their names.



Thanks for this - I appreciate the explanation!

Cheers,
Blair


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## zeus241129 (Dec 23, 2017)

I will go with watanabe still tho .. because he is young but his product already this good.


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