# Help me chose a coarse stone



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

I need a coarse stone to round out the kit. This stone will be used to set new bevels and repair chips on carbon steel and use as the starting point to sharpen stubborn stainless knives (Global, Victorinox, Wal Mart mystery knives etc)

My coarsest stone atm is a King 800 and it's just too slow and dishes too quickly.

Splash and go or soaker are both fine. I'm comfortable using both hard and soft synths.

My options so far are the following:
-JNS300
-Naniwa Traditional 220 or Professional (Chosera) 400
-King300

Any ideas or suggestions are much appreciated!


----------



## daveb (Oct 16, 2017)

My favorite coarse is the JNS 300. But I've gotten surprisingly good results with my Omura nat when working cheaper or German stainless.


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

Are there any in my list that should be avoided?

JNS300 seems to get good reviews, does it dish slowly for a coarse stone?


----------



## Benuser (Oct 16, 2017)

I use both a Naniwa Pro 400 and a Shapton Glass 220. The first is very nice in the feedback it offers, but too slow when a bit of steel is to be removed. Think neglected vintages e.a.
Both are at their best with a bit of mud created with the Atoma 140.
Consider automotive sand'paper' with a linen backing, P120. The best I've used was Robert Bosch's "Metall".


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

Here's something I haven't thought about...how does one flatten a 200,300,400 grit range stone? I currently use a naniwa 220 flattening stone on my 800, 1k and 4k synths but I doubt it would do much to a coarse stone?


----------



## Benuser (Oct 16, 2017)

Get an Atoma 140. Have postponed it for years, you shouldn't wait that long. My best buy. Even your finer stones will benefit. I could revive a stone I had considered lost after gross neglect.


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

Getting a bit off topic but definitely valuable info being directed to me here so thank you!


Can an Atoma 140 be used to flatten j nats as well?


----------



## K813zra (Oct 16, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Here's something I haven't thought about...how does one flatten a 200,300,400 grit range stone? I currently use a naniwa 220 flattening stone on my 800, 1k and 4k synths but I doubt it would do much to a coarse stone?



I, like many, flatten with a 140 grit plate. Works just fine on my pink brick and shapton pro 220, both stones I like very much for thinning. 

I have no experience with the stone you mention and can not comment. But I have had good luck with most of my coarse stones. Pink brick 220, SP220, SP320 and Cerax 320 are all nice stones. The shapton pro is the harder of these stones and I feel that the pink brick is the best at moving metal. The 320 cerax had the best feel in use and the SP320 was the most mellow. 

Sorry I can not be of direct help.

Edit: I use an atoma 140 on my jnats for flattening. However, it will leave deep scratches in a hard stone and you will want a 400/600 to remove those. I use a tomo nagura after that to get the surface back to where I want it.


----------



## naifu (Oct 16, 2017)

In hindsight, I would be tempted to purchase the JNS 300 because it is splash and go, does not dish fast, and has great reviews. I tried one of the pink 220 stones -- it works but it is very thirsty and dishes pretty fast. Still, it works just fine to remove a lot of metal, but I prefer my Shapton glass 220 because it is splash and go, moderately fast, does not dish, and does not get mud all over my knife. Many times you want to do some heavy thinning work, but you don't want to scratch too much of the blade.

One important point is that I only use a coarse stone for big repairs and significant thinning. For microchip repair and light thinning I will just make a few passes with a 400 grit stone. So I would not overlook 400 grit stones in your search.

I flatten my coarse stones with either an Atoma 400 or JKI 150 diamond plate. Either works fine.


----------



## Benuser (Oct 16, 2017)

About Atoma on naturals: why not? Rinse afterwards. It will leave a fine scratch pattern on any fine stone that will disappear after some use but make any sharpening much faster. I use it on a glazed Blue Belgian.


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

What brand are the SP stones? I've seen cerax stones in person, they look to be of good quality


----------



## tripleq (Oct 16, 2017)

The JNS300 is a great stone and it dishes quite slowly. Depending on the job I often prefer the Gesshin 400. It is a little more versatile in the sense it cuts a variety of steels faster than the JNS300 and you'll have no issue jumping to a 1000 or 2000 stone from the Gesshin. You can't go wrong with either. If you want to go coarser the Imanishi 'pink brick' 220x is worth considering. It cuts very fast. You'll have no issues jumping straight to the King 800 from it.


----------



## K813zra (Oct 16, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> What brand are the SP stones? I've seen cerax stones in person, they look to be of good quality



Sorry, used to using abbreviations from other forums. Shapton Pro.


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Oct 16, 2017)

Stoned, I'm going to offer some alternative advise to thinning stone. Buy one of James Sandpaper holder's and then some sand paper. Absolutely one of the best sharpening purchases you'll ever make. Unless your going to go into professional knife sharpening, you'll never get your ROI out of a low grit stone, in fact i'll sell you my newish 300 King Delux or Shapton Glass 220 if you want.

Plus, the paper holder never needs flattening, and can be saddled with any backed abrasive. Something to consider.


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Sorry, used to using abbreviations from other forums. Shapton Pro.


No worries! Never considered Shapton. Until now. Thanks for the suggestion


----------



## RDalman (Oct 16, 2017)

I like my king 300. But it's really intended for carbon I think
Very hard, spash and go. With regular flattening/dressing on granite with 60 grit sic powder it's a beast.


----------



## K813zra (Oct 16, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Stoned, I'm going to offer some alternative advise to thinning stone. Buy one of James Sandpaper holder's and then some sand paper. Absolutely one of the best sharpening purchases you'll ever make. Unless your going to go into professional knife sharpening, you'll never get your ROI out of a low grit stone, in fact i'll sell you my newish 300 King Delux or Shapton Glass 220 if you want.
> 
> Plus, the paper holder never needs flattening, and can be saddled with any backed abrasive. Something to consider.



I don't understand the logic here. If one will not get any return on investment out of a coarse stone and by that I assume you mean you will not use it enough to justify its purchase then why buy something that cost 2-3x the price? Maybe if you used the sand paper contraption rather than stones altogether but otherwise?


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Stoned, I'm going to offer some alternative advise to thinning stone. Buy one of James Sandpaper holder's and then some sand paper.



MuchoBucho, thanks for the suggestion. I would've never thought of that myself.

I know what you mean about ROI...this coarse stone will not get much use. But when it is needed it will be much appreciated (no more spending hours on the King800 to thin a friend's Mac or Global) 

This may be the way to go, I can use automotive wet/dry low grit paper or is there particular sand paper best suited to this type of application?

If you're serious about getting rid of one of your coarse stones DM me!


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

RDalman said:


> I like my king 300. But it's really intended for carbon I think
> Very hard, spash and go. With regular flattening/dressing on granite with 60 grit sic powder it's a beast.


Thanks for the input Robin. The price point of the King 300 has me interested as it won't be my most used stone (probably one of the least used)


----------



## Benuser (Oct 16, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Thanks for the input Robin. The price point of the King 300 has me interested as it won't be my most used stone (probably one of the least used)


That may rapidly change.


----------



## frog13 (Oct 16, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Stoned, I'm going to offer some alternative advise to thinning stone. Buy one of James Sandpaper holder's and then some sand paper. Absolutely one of the best sharpening purchases you'll ever make. Unless your going to go into professional knife sharpening, you'll never get your ROI out of a low grit stone, in fact i'll sell you my newish 300 King Delux or Shapton Glass 220 if you want.
> 
> Plus, the paper holder never needs flattening, and can be saddled with any backed abrasive. Something to consider.





K813zra said:


> I don't understand the logic here. If one will not get any return on investment out of a coarse stone and by that I assume you mean you will not use it enough to justify its purchase then why buy something that cost 2-3x the price? Maybe if you used the sand paper contraption rather than stones altogether but otherwise?


I bought the Czar Paper Holder in lieu of a coarse stone. Yes, it costs more up front but it gets a lot more use than a coarse stone. I have paper from 180 grit down to .3 microns. It makes short work of removing steel, is always perfectly flat and doesn't need soaking or water. For cheap knives I use it for a sharpening progression, no sense wasting good stones on those. I have used it for polishing also, so yes, more expensive up front but a tool I use much more often than a stone. Oh yeah, I keep it loaded with a 7K grit paper so i can pull it out and do quick touch up honing ..... Just my :my2cents: :biggrin:


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I don't understand the logic here. If one will not get any return on investment out of a coarse stone and by that I assume you mean you will not use it enough to justify its purchase then why buy something that cost 2-3x the price? Maybe if you used the sand paper contraption rather than stones altogether but otherwise?


 
A coarse stone or something similar doesn't seem like a good buy until you need one and don't have one. I don't mind buying a stone and keeping it forever


----------



## K813zra (Oct 16, 2017)

frog13 said:


> I bought the Czar Paper Holder in lieu of a coarse stone. Yes, it costs more up front but it gets a lot more use than a coarse stone. I have paper from 180 grit down to .3 microns. It makes short work of removing steel, is always perfectly flat and doesn't need soaking or water. For cheap knives I use it for a sharpening progression, no sense wasting good stones on those. I have used it for polishing also, so yes, more expensive up front but a tool I use much more often than a stone. Oh yeah, I keep it loaded with a 7K grit paper so i can pull it out and do quick touch up honing ..... Just my :my2cents: :biggrin:



As I said, that makes sense as a sharpening system replacement. You are not using it as a coarse stone you are using it for loads of things. But to use is simply in places of a coarse stone, I think it is less logical. 

I've never seen such fine grit sandpaper, btw. But I've never really looked beyond walmart or lowes either.



StonedEdge said:


> A coarse stone or something similar doesn't seem like a good buy until you need one and don't have one. I don't mind buying a stone and keeping it forever



I think every stone I have ever bought was worth it. Sharpening is my hobby.  I have dozens of synthetics and 33 natural stones at this point. I like and use them all. I buy knives from ebay as projects just so I can use my stones. Buying and trying new stones is great. No one has to convince me to spend more money on stones. :biggrin:


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I'll sell you my newish 300 King Delux or Shapton Glass 220 if you want.



Sent you a PM but your box is full.


----------



## frog13 (Oct 16, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I've never seen such fine grit sandpaper, btw. But I've never really looked beyond walmart or lowes either.



Check out 3M Lapping Film, you can find it on Amazon or Lee Valley Tools for sure. Awesome stuff!


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 16, 2017)

I'm down with Lee Valley! Will def take a look!


----------



## tripleq (Oct 16, 2017)

You're in Montreal. Paul's Finest is based in Montreal and has a couple of Naniwa stones - 220, 400 on sale right now. They don't have a storefront but shipping will be quick and cheap.


----------



## Yet-Another-Dave (Oct 16, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I don't understand the logic here....



I'm not sure what point he was trying to make, but there are a couple ways to look at cost. (BTW- woodworkers have a much wider range of edged tools and therefore many more dimensions in the sharpening arguments, erh discussions.  Basically you find a way that works for you and accept it on faith. Google "scary sharp" for an endless discussion of the merits / tradeoffs of sharpening with sand paper / honing film.)

There are a couple ways to look at the "cost" of film versus stones. First is just entry cost. Sand paper wins, unless you get fancy with your holder. For price, stick to spray adhesive and glass or MDF bases. For total long term cost you need to think about how long a stone lasts. This general in favor of the stone, since it counts as a large number of sheets. Where this calc might be close though is the coarse stones. At lower grits the particles are larger, so a 25mm thick stone is many fewer "sheet equivalents" and doesn't last as long as the extra-fine finishing stone. Especially if you don't frequently need a coarse stone, paper / film could be a good choice.

Now, James' CZAR paper / film holder isn't necessary, it is just wonderful. It is easy to use and clamps any grit strip very well & easily. Effectively it replaces a stone holder too. But it isn't cheap and sort of blows up the lower up front cost. As always YMMV in practice.


----------



## K813zra (Oct 16, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> I'm not sure what point he was trying to make, but there are a couple ways to look at cost. (BTW- woodworkers have a much wider range of edged tools and therefore many more dimensions in the sharpening arguments, erh discussions.  Basically you find a way that works for you and accept it on faith. Google "scary sharp" for an endless discussion of the merits / tradeoffs of sharpening with sand paper / honing film.)
> 
> There are a couple ways to look at the "cost" of film versus stones. First is just entry cost. Sand paper wins, unless you get fancy with your holder. For price, stick to spray adhesive and glass or MDF bases. For total long term cost you need to think about how long a stone lasts. This general in favor of the stone, since it counts as a large number of sheets. Where this calc might be close though is the coarse stones. At lower grits the particles are larger, so a 25mm thick stone is many fewer "sheet equivalents" and doesn't last as long as the extra-fine finishing stone. Especially if you don't frequently need a coarse stone, paper / film could be a good choice.
> 
> Now, James' CZAR paper / film holder isn't necessary, it is just wonderful. It is easy to use and clamps any grit strip very well & easily. Effectively it replaces a stone holder too. But it isn't cheap and sort of blows up the lower up front cost. As always YMMV in practice.



I understand that, as I said, as a sharpening system it seems to be a very good value. However, if one intends to use water stones from say 500 grit up then buying the sandpaper contraption simply to replace a single 220-400 grit stone, to me does not seem like a value. Particularly when you can get something like a King 300 for around $20.

BTW there was a fellow on blade that used to sell something called a wash board or something like that which was similar. Regardless, I am a sharpening junkie so I might look into one of those those CAZR things but not for practical reasons. I have over 3 dozen naturals and many more synthetic stones which in itself is not logical either. :clown:


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Oct 16, 2017)

K318 if you have that many stones Id say away from the sand paper holder. Its such a fun sharpening tool and you can dial in grit combos like at will. Also you can get many many uses per cut sheet. Depending on the grit/sharpening medium and brand, you can actually get some decent feedback too. Just sharing my opinion. I only pull out my Oohira S, Oohira Tomae or Ozuku for novelty and reverence for the blade.


----------



## K813zra (Oct 16, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> K318 if you have that many stones Id say away from the sand paper holder. Its such a fun sharpening tool and you can dial in grit combos like at will. Also you can get many many uses per cut sheet. Depending on the grit/sharpening medium and brand, you can actually get some decent feedback too. Just sharing my opinion. I only pull out my Oohira S, Oohira Tomae or Ozuku for novelty and reverence for the blade.



My Ohira Tomae is one of my favorite stones.  It is an Iromono and quite soft for what it is. But seriously, I have about every sharpening contraption out there. I have an addiction.


----------



## TheCaptain (Oct 17, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I think every stone I have ever bought was worth it. Sharpening is my hobby.  I have *dozens of synthetics and 33 natural stones at this point*. I like and use them all. I buy knives from ebay as projects just so I can use my stones. Buying and trying new stones is great. No one has to convince me to spend more money on stones. :biggrin:



Ok, so when are you going to get serious about your hobby? :doublethumbsup:


----------



## StonedEdge (Oct 17, 2017)

tripleq said:


> You're in Montreal. Paul's Finest is based in Montreal and has a couple of Naniwa stones - 220, 400 on sale right now. They don't have a storefront but shipping will be quick and cheap.


Never thought of that, thanks for the heads up may have to go that route


----------



## crlums (Nov 29, 2017)

I'm going to tag onto this thread since I have a similar question and reading through here was already helpful. I'm learning to thin on a Migabi SG2 and its really slow going using my shun 1000/6000 combo (my starter stone) and the shapton pro I got more recently. I want something course that will be better at thinning, and also fit into a progression with my current stones if I want to use it for bevel setting.

The shapton pro 220, shapton pro 320, and king 300 stand out as good affordable choices. Is it reasonable to use one of these both for thinning and in a progression with my existing stones?


----------



## scott.livesey (Nov 29, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Here's something I haven't thought about...how does one flatten a 200,300,400 grit range stone? I currently use a naniwa 220 flattening stone on my 800, 1k and 4k synths but I doubt it would do much to a coarse stone?



get a 1 pound bag of loose 40-60 grit silicon carbide grit and either a small piece of granite or a 12" square of 3/8" steel plate. put a little grit in a pile, add a bit of water or oil and off you go. a 1 pound bag should cost about $5 and last several years. for a coarse stone, nothing beats a coarse Norton Crystolon.


----------



## Nemo (Nov 30, 2017)

scott.livesey said:


> for a coarse stone, nothing beats a coarse Norton Crystolon.



Do you use it with oil or water or dry?


----------



## scott.livesey (Nov 30, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Do you use it with oil or water or dry?



I have used them all three ways if you can count windex as water. for most sharpening, I use just enough mineral oil to make the surface moist. my favorite is an 8"x2" coarse crystolon/fine india, the edge off the fine india is great for 99% of kitchen prep work.


----------



## HRC_64 (Dec 5, 2017)

scott.livesey said:


> I have used them all three ways if you can count windex as water. for most sharpening, I use just enough mineral oil to make the surface moist. my favorite is an 8"x2" coarse crystolon/fine india, the edge off the fine india is great for 99% of kitchen prep work.



It would be nice to find a cheap $20/per coarse stone for grunt work
what JIS is the follow up stone (fine india?)


----------

