# Best coarse stone for crap steel



## ian (Oct 3, 2020)

Just to beat you to it: “a brick! the sidewalk!”

But seriously, say I want something that’ll remove steel like a mofo on soft stainless —— think Henckel or Wustoff at the best, maybe a Vic, but also think about Cuisinart and Cutco knives and crap like that. What do you pick? I’m thinking lowww grit, like for initial bevel setting on knives that wouldn’t cut your arm if you hacked at it. Currently I’m using a SG 120 for most of the initial bevel setting, which is ok, and I liked Sigma 240, but I’d be interested in other ideas/opinions. Kinda curious about Suehiro Debado 200, SG 220 too.


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## inferno (Oct 3, 2020)

do you want faster or just different?

i like the shapton pro 220 for this. its semi muddy, and the scratches are way less deep than the sigma imo. its faster too iirc.

the problem with the 120ies is that you have to push so hard you can only do it for like a minute.
i like the glass 220 too. its was practically made for crap ss.


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## ian (Oct 3, 2020)

Hmm, what’s Pro 220 like vs Glass 220 and Pro 120? Pro 120 was too hard for me.


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## Chuckles (Oct 3, 2020)

Here is the thread where I learned ‘cheap steel needs cheap stones’.






Sharpening a Top Chef knife.


I was asked to sharpen a 'Top Chef Knife'. I just finished and it has been a strange experience. The steel is X30Cr13. I don't know what that means but it is 'ice tempered at -300F' to a Rockwell hardness of 53 (+\-2). So this knife could be HRC 51? This is easily the worst knife I have ever...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## inferno (Oct 3, 2020)

pro 120 is ultra hard, the glass 220 and pro 220 are softer


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## JDC (Oct 3, 2020)

pro 220 tends to dish, just my 2 cents.


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## soigne_west (Oct 3, 2020)

Winco course/medium stone. It’s terrible but fast. And $12.


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## soigne_west (Oct 3, 2020)

https://www.restaurantsupply.com/winco-ss-1211-2-1-2-sharpening-stone?keyword=&gclid=Cj0KCQjwwuD7BRDBARIsAK_5YhVeotUI8rfgXJZlOwG88URR_kn8g37SNm1rqeGegPOKZVDQAD4IZh4aAhRBEALw_wcB


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## ian (Oct 3, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Here is the thread where I learned ‘cheap steel needs cheap stones’.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good read. A $20 oilstone may be a good idea too.

My biggest blunder with these kind of knives was not going aggressive enough at first. Nowadays I inspect it briefly to make sure it’s hella dull, and then I just wail on it with as coarse of a stone as I have (alternating sides somewhat frequently) until I get a fat burr heel to tip. I usually do this at a lower angle than I’m going to finish at, like 15(?) degrees. Then I cut off the burr with a couple edge leading strokes, and then move up to a 500ish grit stone, where I briefly polish the 15 degree bevel and then cut in a conservative smaller bevel. If it’s crap steel, I finish at 500 grit with any residual deburring on cardboard. For a Wusthoff or a Vic or something, I’ll finish at 800-1000.


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## ian (Oct 3, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Winco course/medium stone. It’s terrible but fast. And $12.



My heart says no, but my heart is probably just stuck up and wrong.


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## soigne_west (Oct 3, 2020)

It’s as bad as you could expect. But it gets stubborn jobs done with quick.


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## M1k3 (Oct 3, 2020)

I like the medium one for cheap stainless. XL Oil Stone


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## Rangen (Oct 3, 2020)

Venev diamond bench stones. They go down to something like 100-140 grit. If you don't mind EdgePro-sized stones, they're cheaper. I took a couple with me when I rented an AirBNB, and sharpened all their knives, including some Henckels and some really really crappy Chinese steel. Worked out fine, though I had to learn a lot about deburring when all you have is a 400 and a 1200. Stropped on printer paper on the granite countertop.


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## inferno (Oct 4, 2020)

to be honst, in the ultra low grit range, all stones dish fast and don't really feel that good. but who really cares as long as they remove metal fast? i dont.

just get one and stick to it until its used up. thats the economical way. but not very fun.

if you want fun. just get a few coarse ones and try them out. you can never have too many stones imo.


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## Matus (Oct 4, 2020)

For what it’s worth - I got a few Shapton SG stones for travel and to sharpen crap knives of my relatives. And SG220 worked well to do the coarse part of the work. You want softer stone for this as otherwise it might load up with the rubbery soft stainless. I would guess that most other 200-ish stones would work equally welll.


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## ian (Oct 4, 2020)

inferno said:


> just get one and stick to it until its used up. thats the economical way. but not very fun.



Yeah, The reason for this thread is that my SG120 is getting pretty thin.

Probably I will end up getting a couple new ones.


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## ian (Oct 4, 2020)

Just ordered SG 220, Sigma 240 and Suehiro Debado 320 from MTC. Good deal with the sale! $130 total shipped.


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## Dakota Day Trader (Oct 4, 2020)

I have a Shapton Glass 500 that does well with crappier steels on cheap knives. I've also used a 300 grit diamond plate with decent results.

This week I have a Shapton Glass 220 coming along with a 220 grit stone from Pride Abrasives that is supposed to be extremely fast, and is very cheap. Best Sharpening Stones has a Pride Abrasives 220/1000 combo stone for $38 bucks. 

I'll give them a few sharpenings and report back with what I find out. I have high hopes for the Pride Abrasives as they are made in the US and are supposed to be a very fast cutting, long-wearing stone.


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## nwshull (Oct 4, 2020)

If you have access to it, I feel like this is where a belt sander or tormek shines. Then strop and hone. I've also had good experience on my atomas.


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## ian (Oct 4, 2020)

nwshull said:


> If you have access to it, I feel like this is where a belt sander or tormek shines. Then strop and hone. I've also had good experience on my atomas.



yea a belt sander would be great. It’s too noisy and messy for my situation sadly


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## McMan (Oct 4, 2020)

Best coarse stone for crap steel?
Those generic blue ones from Asian grocers for $4.99. I actually use one of these to thin. They dish immediately and, every now and then, just completely fall apart in use. They're spendy, true, so there's always this one: Combination Sharpening Stone


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## lowercasebill (Oct 4, 2020)

I use atomas
140 400 1200 6000 .
Plus cheap belt grinder from harbor freight. There is often a hollow near the handle from electric or pull thru sharpeners. Way too much removal to do with stone. I use float glass and back light the knife to make sure the edge is flat.


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## Slim278 (Oct 4, 2020)

Anyone try something like this as a bench stone?


https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200680455_200680455


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## daveb (Oct 4, 2020)

When I know that I hate the knife going in and that it's not going to get any better, I break out the ubiquitous 220 pink brick. Mine is from JKI but everyone seems to offer one.

It's huge, I don't care if it dishes. It can be worked either hard or harder. It is not and will not be pleasant. But I already hate the knife, it's not going to get worrse.


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## juice (Oct 4, 2020)

McMan said:


> They're spendy, true, so there's always this one


Both ends of the market covered, comprehensive. Nice work.


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## btbyrd (Oct 4, 2020)

I use DMT diamond plates. The coarse ones feel like murder, but man do they cut quickly.


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## Nemo (Oct 4, 2020)

I use sandpaper on this type of knife.


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## ref (Oct 4, 2020)

I did a lot of cheap crappy knives recently. I used a atoma 140 for the heavy stuff, and SG500 for the less heavy stuff.

It worked great, and the atoma is great for resurfacing the shapton. However, it's expensive to buy, not cost efficient (atoma's don't have a great lifespan, glass is slow to dish but slow to flatten), and sharpening on the atoma is possibly the worst sharpening experience you could possibly have (however, moving on the shapton, or any real stone is like walking in to an air conditioned store on a very hot day).

The glass 500 should be plenty fast for stuff like wusthof/vnox, even with a couple chips. It does glaze quite a bit though, so you would ideally have something close by to resurface it a tiny bit every now and then, and to clean it.


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## Bert2368 (Oct 4, 2020)

Dakota Day Trader said:


> I have a Shapton Glass 500 that does well with crappier steels on cheap knives.



+1 on the Shapton 500 glass (get the double thick version).

I have one and have used it to reshape significantly chipped edges, snapped off tips. 

And then I figured out I also had several better choices: An 8" bench grinder, 6" wide belt/10" disc combination sander (and also enough knowledge to go slow, keep a pan of water close by to quench steel at frequent intervals before destroying temper, arthritis in my hands and the slowly dawning realization I should not hurt myself using a stone where a power tool made more sense...)


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## Dakota Day Trader (Oct 4, 2020)

Bert2368 said:


> +1 on the Shapton 500 glass (get the double thick version).



Yep, got it! 

Also just got the email that my Pride Abrasive stones are at the post office, and will be out for delivery tomorrow. I’m looking forward to seeing what these will do!


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## ian (Oct 5, 2020)

ref said:


> The glass 500 should be plenty fast for stuff like wusthof/vnox, even with a couple chips.





Bert2368 said:


> +1 on the Shapton 500 glass (get the double thick version).



I have a SG 500, and it’s a nice stone. I’d only start with it if the knife was in really good condition, though, and was already semi sharp.



Bert2368 said:


> slowly dawning realization I should not hurt myself using a stone where a power tool made more sense



amen. maybe the real solution is to stop sharpening crap knives until I live in a situation where a belt sander is possible.


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## ref (Oct 5, 2020)

ian said:


> I have a SG 500, and it’s a nice stone. I’d only start with it if the knife was in really good condition, though, and was already semi sharp.



Have you tried using _lots _of pressure, after a fresh resurfacing? I am probably misremembering how look those crappy knives took me though...


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## ian (Oct 5, 2020)

Yea, they usually come with small chips, and enough fatigued steel that even with a 120 grit stone it takes me a few minutes to get a consistent burr.


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## ref (Oct 5, 2020)

ian said:


> Yea, they usually come with small chips, and enough fatigued steel that even with a 120 grit stone it takes me a few minutes to get a consistent burr.



Did you try swearing profusely? I find it speeds things up at all grits


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## ian (Oct 5, 2020)

ref said:


> Did you try swearing profusely? I find it speeds things up at all grits



Coarse language works especially well with coarse stones.


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## Dakota Day Trader (Oct 25, 2020)

OK I wanted to get some sessions in with the Pride Abrasive 220/1000 combo stone before I posted my thoughts. I got that, along with the 8K/10K stone as well. I've had a few sessions spaced a few days apart to really let this set in, so here's what I can report back.

*Speaking to the 220 grit stone specifically, I can say:*
-It DOES remove material fast, and brings up a burr almost instantly on cheaper knives. I did NOT try this out on any good knives with higher quality and harder steels as I would not want to eat away that much metal and had no need to do so.

- It is hard and thirsty. I let mine soak for almost an hour while I was finishing up another project and it still needed way more water than any other stone I have as I went along. It has a very hard feel, and is loud enough to sound like you are murdering your knife on it.

- It leaves a "decent" finish, but I don't have much to compare it to other than an 300 grit Ultrasharp plate, as I have never used a stone this coarse before. It was sharp coming off the stone, but not like coming off a Shapton Glass 500.

- It leaves an almost sand-like slurry. I wouldn't even call it a mud, but it actually feels like sand. Very much a PITA to clean up.

Bottom line for me was that it worked well for hogging off metal and resetting a messed up bevel pretty quickly. I was not a real fan of using it, OR the 1K side, but your mileage may vary.

I will probably end up selling this one down the road, as I feel more comfortable using a diamond plate or a Shapton Glass 220 stone than this.

That said, this 220/1K may work well for somebody who is just using it as a fixer/1st stone, as you can work up a burr and move off it very quickly.


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## panda (Oct 25, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Winco course/medium stone. It’s terrible but fast. And $12.


this


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 31, 2020)

ian said:


> ... I basically do all the work on a 200ish grit stone, setting a pretty acute angle, then jump up to 500ish, polish the acute bevel and set another more conservative one, and strop on cardboard...


I noticed this in your other thread but didn't want to derail the discussion. Have you settled on a favorite 200ish grit, or is the common wisdom correct that they're all different shades of terrible?


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## ian (Oct 31, 2020)

Sigma 240’s pretty good. Loses water quickly, but it’s very fast. I’ve also been enjoying SG 220, although I haven’t used it enough to give a full review.


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## Dakota Day Trader (Oct 31, 2020)

Has anyone tried the Nanohone 200? I have thought about picking that one up before.


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## cotedupy (Oct 31, 2020)

Interesting thread, cheers!

I personally use a cheap combi oilstone atm, it doesn't say but the sides are apparently around 150 and 400. Works alright, but feels like crap.

I think I'll probably upgrade soon, and leave major removal for the belt sander, so good to read some recs here


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 31, 2020)

ian said:


> Sigma 240’s pretty good. Loses water quickly, but it’s very fast. I’ve also been enjoying SG 220, although I haven’t used it enough to give a full review.


Thanks for the update. Lately I've been feeling the GS500 is somewhat pointless preceding the SP1500 (which is perfect for setting up my medium-fine naturals). I ordered the medium Crystolon on a whim, I'll have to try the Sigma 240 if that doesn't work. Either way I suspect that SiC is the way to go for extra coarse stones.


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## M1k3 (Oct 31, 2020)

Dakota Day Trader said:


> Has anyone tried the Nanohone 200? I have thought about picking that one up before.


Pretty good for sharpening, light chip removal. To muddy for heavy lifting.


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## ian (Oct 31, 2020)

For super heavy lifting (not for edges), I think I'm a 120 grit sandpaper convert.


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## Mr.Wizard (Mar 20, 2021)

For cutting the initial bevel on very soft knives that have been heavily blunted I have found that a hand file works better than any stone.


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 10, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I like the medium one for cheap stainless. XL Oil Stone



Have you used a Norton Crystolon? Are the XL Oil Stones of similar quality? I like the fact that they are US made.


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## M1k3 (Apr 10, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> Have you used a Norton Crystolon? Are the XL Oil Stones of similar quality? I like the fact that they are US made.


Yes. Replaced a coarse and medium Norton crystolon's with these. In use I couldn't tell a difference. Side by side, the colors were slightly different but very similar. Otherwise I'd call them the same.


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## tostadas (Apr 10, 2021)

120/220 grit sandpaper is what I use for super abused crap steel. Wet it and lay it on top of either an atoma or one of your other stones. I can set the bevels super fast, then finish with a SP1k


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## Deadboxhero (Apr 11, 2021)

ian said:


> Just to beat you to it: “a brick! the sidewalk!”
> 
> But seriously, say I want something that’ll remove steel like a mofo on soft stainless —— think Henckel or Wustoff at the best, maybe a Vic, but also think about Cuisinart and Cutco knives and crap like that. What do you pick? I’m thinking lowww grit, like for initial bevel setting on knives that wouldn’t cut your arm if you hacked at it. Currently I’m using a SG 120 for most of the initial bevel setting, which is ok, and I liked Sigma 240, but I’d be interested in other ideas/opinions. Kinda curious about Suehiro Debado 200, SG 220 too.


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## Dakota Day Trader (Apr 11, 2021)

Nice vid!

I didn’t see it mentioned on the video, but was that the 400 grit SV stone?


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## ian (Apr 11, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


>




ok, that's kind of impressive


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 11, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


>




I could use a stone like that for the Edge Pro, and I'll never be able to afford one of the full size ones as much as I'd like it.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 11, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


>





I was all prepared to start a new thread but then saw it here.

This was going to be my theme...


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## Michi (Apr 11, 2021)

ian said:


> ok, that's kind of impressive


Indeed! As is the price, at USD 450…


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## Deadboxhero (Apr 11, 2021)

Dakota Day Trader said:


> Nice vid!
> 
> I didn’t see it mentioned on the video, but was that the 400 grit SV stone?


Yes, 400 grit.


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## Desert Rat (Apr 14, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Yes. Replaced a coarse and medium Norton crystolon's with these. In use I couldn't tell a difference. Side by side, the colors were slightly different but very similar. Otherwise I'd call them the same.


I wouldn't be surprised if they were Norton's.


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## cotedupy (Apr 14, 2021)

Michi said:


> Indeed! As is the price, at USD 450…



I reckon I could have a crack at this in that timeframe on my Norton 140/400 combi, which is less than 1/10th of that price. I've done quite a lot of fairly big repair work with it, and the coarse side eats steel. 

Now that I've got all the oil out of it I rather like it - it was messy as hell before. Still doesn't feel great, but does it's job.


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 14, 2021)

Desert Rat said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if they were Norton's.



I thought Norton oilstones were no longer US made?


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 14, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I reckon I could have a crack at this in that timeframe on my Norton 140/400 combi, which is less than 1/10th of that price.



I don't think the point of the video was to prove that it is the fastest manual abrasive available, but rather how extraordinarily fast (and gouge resistant) the Super Vitrified stone is for 400 grit.


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## cotedupy (Apr 15, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> I don't think the point of the video was to prove that it is the fastest manual abrasive available, but rather how extraordinarily fast (and gouge resistant) the Super Vitrified stone is for 400 grit.



Yep, fair point. I would do a most of that on the coarse side of my stone.


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## Deadboxhero (Apr 15, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I reckon I could have a crack at this in that timeframe on my Norton 140/400 combi, which is less than 1/10th of that price. I've done quite a lot of fairly big repair work with it, and the coarse side eats steel.
> 
> Now that I've got all the oil out of it I rather like it - it was messy as hell before. Still doesn't feel great, but does it's job.



I'll dig that knife outta the garbage and send it to ya if ya wanna make a video.


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## cotedupy (Apr 15, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> I'll dig that knife outta the garbage and send it to ya if ya wanna make a video.



Haha, was that your video? Good job! The 400 side of my stone certainly wouldn't be able to do that, but the coarse side always surprises me with how quick it is for repairs.


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## M1k3 (Apr 15, 2021)

Deadboxhero = Big Brown Bear = BBB


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## Slim278 (May 3, 2021)

I have herd goo thing about this stone. The dealer is active on another forum I travel to an the stone seems to be well liked.


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## Desert Rat (May 5, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> I thought Norton oilstones were no longer US made?


Ohh, that would be a shame. I hadn't heard that, I will look the next time I'm at the hardware store.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (May 5, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> I thought Norton oilstones were no longer US made?





Desert Rat said:


> Ohh, that would be a shame. I hadn't heard that, I will look the next time I'm at the hardware store.


I recently purchased a medium Norton Crystolon. It say's 'Made in Mexico' on the box. Same quality stone though.


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## HumbleHomeCook (May 5, 2021)

Yep the Crystolon and India lines are Made in Mexico.


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## big_adventure (May 5, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Yep the Crystolon and India lines are Made in Mexico.



I believe you mean "Hecho en Mexico."


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## inferno (May 5, 2021)

i dont really think it matters where crystolon stones are made. they have been making SiC abrasive since 1893! 
its a pretty ironed out process by now. this is not rocket science.


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## HumbleHomeCook (May 5, 2021)

Certainly has never mattered to me.


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## stringer (May 12, 2021)

My new vote is the American mutt. At least for edge work. I've been using it to sharpen my pocket knife and my barbecue cleaver and cheapo knives at work. Be careful if you give the stone a three finger test. It will bite you. I was skeptical they actually used diamonds. No longer skeptical. I can't speak to thinning but for just edge work on crap stainless. This is real nice. 3x faster than crystolon with half as much pressure.


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