# Want to learn free handing- need stones



## Nemo (Oct 16, 2016)

Hi All.

Long-time lurker but this is my first real post.

I started using Japanese knives about 6 months ago. I've been using an Edgepro which keeps a very good edge. Even my old German knives are sharper than they have ever been.

However, there are limitations (minimum thinning angle, the heel is often at a lower angle than the tip, changing the angle is a little bit of a pain) and I think I now understand enough about sharpening to try free handing (have watched JKI's videos and some others).

I live in Australia, so postage from USA is pretty expensive. But there is a bit of choice locally.

I currently need to sharpen knives in the following steels:
German SS.
Aus8 (Fuji-K FKM).
Shiroko #2 (kagekiyo).
Carbonext (JCK)
SKD-12 (Yoshikane).
SG2/R2 (Ryusen).
SRS-15 (Akifusa).
HAP40 (Gihei).

I am considering Naniwa Chosera/Pro.
My initial thoughts are: 1K for initial sharpening, 5K or 10K for refining, 400 for thinning +/- bevel set.
Maybe Atoma plate (?140) for levelling.

Are Choseras good for these steels? Should I consider other stones? Which grits?

Did I miss any info? (I couldn't find the stones questionnaire) that you need?


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## bennyprofane (Oct 16, 2016)

The Choseras are a good choice, I have and like them, alternatively you could consider Gesshin or JNS stones. I just got the Watanabe AI #1000 stone and it has nice feedback, is not thirsty at all and is really turobofast, so also a recommendation. (I will give a little more feedback about the Watanabe in another thread, once I have a little more impressions.)

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/syntheticstone.htm

Atoma 140 is also a great choice, although you could also get the 400, a little slower but perhaps better for finer stones. I have the 140 and considering the 400 at the moment.

Personally, I would get Watanabe AI #1000 and JNS 6000 and Atoma 400. 

For coarser, I have the JNS 300 and the Watanabe AI #220. The Watanabe feels a lot coarser than the JNS. Watanabe might be faster but from sharpening feeling I prefer the JNS.

I think a 10000 stone is too fine, edge won't last long, if you want to go finer than 6000, I would go for a jnat. Perhaps a Suita or an Aiiwatani.

JNS has free worldwide shipping for orders above a certain amount and there is not VAT tax for orders outside of the European union. If you want to get everything from one vendor, the JNS 1000 is also very popular, but I can't comment on it since I don't have it.


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## chefcomesback (Oct 16, 2016)

Currently he is in Japan to visit the makers but shoot an email to James from knives and stones , he will set you with the stones you need .


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## Benuser (Oct 16, 2016)

I would choose the Chosera /Naniwa Professional 400, 800 and 3k. The end result is more or less equivalent to JIS 500, 1200 and 4k. I would avoid the Chosera 5k: a bit on the soft side and lacking the response the others offer. Would you need anything after the 3k, you may look for the Naniwa Junpaku 8k.


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## Nemo (Oct 16, 2016)

Thanks for the responses. I'll have a look at JNS and I might email James when he gets back.

Shapton worth considering? I heard that the glass stones feel a bit weird?


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## foody518 (Oct 16, 2016)

The 10k is PRICEY and not necessarily needed
Look into toolsfromjapan as a possible vendor as well. Shipping can be slow but the prices and selection are pretty fair. I might also suggest the Naniwa Hayabusa 4k as a fine grit to have. Price is good, splash and go, it's fast enough following a medium grit stone, edge off of it has some tooth


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## K813zra (Oct 16, 2016)

Nemo said:


> Thanks for the responses. I'll have a look at JNS and I might email James when he gets back.
> 
> Shapton worth considering? I heard that the glass stones feel a bit weird?



I have glass stones in my workshop for tools (500/2000/8000). I have tried them a few times on knives and they are not for me. The 500 has okay feedback, the 2000 is slick and the 8000 is slick but has a bit of a rubbery feel to it. The pro stones imo, while they don't have the best feedback are much better than the glass stones. They are a good bang for the buck splash-and-go stone. I have only used the 320-5000 grit stones so that is something to take into consideration.


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## mc2442 (Oct 16, 2016)

The 1200 Bester and 5k Rika has suited me well for some time. Limited need to go lower for me, normally on softer steels or inferior knives only.


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## Nemo (Oct 16, 2016)

K813zra said:


> I have glass stones in my workshop for tools (500/2000/8000). I have tried them a few times on knives and they are not for me. The 500 has okay feedback, the 2000 is slick and the 8000 is slick but has a bit of a rubbery feel to it. The pro stones imo, while they don't have the best feedback are much better than the glass stones. They are a good bang for the buck splash-and-go stone. I have only used the 320-5000 grit stones so that is something to take into consideration.



Thanks K813.

Sounds like the GS might not be best for a newbie but the Pros might be OK.


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## Nemo (Oct 16, 2016)

foody518 said:


> The 10k is PRICEY and not necessarily needed
> Look into toolsfromjapan as a possible vendor as well. Shipping can be slow but the prices and selection are pretty fair. I might also suggest the Naniwa Hayabusa 4k as a fine grit to have. Price is good, splash and go, it's fast enough following a medium grit stone, edge off of it has some tooth



Thanks foodie. I'll take a look at the Hayabusa.


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## Nemo (Oct 16, 2016)

mc2442 said:


> The 1200 Bester and 5k Rika has suited me well for some time. Limited need to go lower for me, normally on softer steels or inferior knives only.



Thanks MC. I'm thinking of using my old Furis (yes- I bought them a decade ago when I had absolutely no idea:O) as a learning platform, which have pretty soft steel. Only problem is that the soft steel might form quite a burr.


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## Benuser (Oct 16, 2016)

As the OP has some soft stainless Germans as well I thought the 400 could be helpful. It's how I sharpen Wüsthofs, after that perhaps a bit of raw leather and deburring at 2k or so. And the 400 is well suited to get rid of any poor factory edge.


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## Nemo (Oct 16, 2016)

Benuser said:


> As the OP has some soft stainless Germans as well I thought the 400 could be helpful. It's how I sharpen Wüsthofs, after that perhaps a bit of raw leather and deburring at 2k or so. And the 400 is well suited to get rid of any poor factory edge.



Thanks Benuser. Why do the softer steels need the lower grit?

Also, I tend to do my final deburring in cork (getting harder and harder to find now days!). Do you find leather better?


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## Benuser (Oct 17, 2016)

Nemo said:


> Thanks Benuser. Why do the softer steels need the lower grit?
> 
> Also, I tend to do my final deburring in cork (getting harder and harder to find now days!). Do you find leather better?



I don't want to polish a soft stainless as it will lead to carbides breaking out of the soft matrix and edge instability. The two strokes per side on rough leather a only meant to loosen the remaining burr. Very different from soft carbons that you may take to any high grit.


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## Nemo (Oct 17, 2016)

Benuser said:


> I don't want to polish a soft stainless as it will lead to carbides breaking out of the soft matrix and edge instability. The two strokes per side on rough leather a only meant to loosen the remaining burr. Very different from soft carbons that you may take to any high grit.



I see what you mean. I've certainly noted that effect trying to polish aus8. Haven't even tried polishing German steels. I feel that I've had quite a bit of success polishing srs15, hap40 and sg2 though (esp sg2). Does that fit your experience?


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## Benuser (Oct 17, 2016)

Carbides with Aus-8 are much smaller than with Krupp's 1.4116, and the matrix isn't that soft. You should be able to fully sharpen it up to 2-3k. The case of the Germans is really an extreme one. I would say no full sharpen it beyond 1200. That being said, both Wüsthof and Zwilling come with much finer grained steel that Victorinox. 
With SG2 by Blazen I neither found great edge retention after high polishing. So I stopped at 2k, but deburred at 8k. My fault, probably.


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## foody518 (Oct 17, 2016)

Have sharpened a Kanetsugu Pro M (probably some sort of chrome moly vanadium steel) to 6k with good feedback from the recipient. With the stones I had out at that point it was either finishing on that or on 1.2k and I really do feel like I deburr better and like the edge better going one step up from like a Bester 1200


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Carbides with Aus-8 are much smaller than with Krupp's 1.4116, and the matrix isn't that soft. You should be able to fully sharpen it up to 2-3k. The case of the Germans is really an extreme one. I would say no full sharpen it beyond 1200. That being said, both Wüsthof and Zwilling come with much finer grained steel that Victorinox.
> With SG2 by Blazen I neither found great edge retention after high polishing. So I stopped at 2k, but deburred at 8k. My fault, probably.



I've mostly sharpened Krupps SS to 600 edgepro which I think is about equivalent to 1k. 1200 doesnt seem to make them much sharper.

I tried pushing the AUS8 to 0.5 micron but this was no better than EP 4k (~8K JIS?) and I suspect no better than EP2300 (which is still a mirror polish.)

I've also found that while SG2 (and my other PMs) seem to take a high polish they don't hold on to it for very long (even if not being used) so I may be wasting my time.


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## Benuser (Oct 18, 2016)

Nemo said:


> I've also found that while SG2 (and my other PMs) seem to take a high polish they don't hold on to it for very long (even if not being used) so I may be wasting my time.


What was the angle?


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Benuser said:


> What was the angle?



14 dps on the blade It shipped with about 10-12 dps from memory.


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## Benuser (Oct 18, 2016)

Forget all about factory edges. Far too steep, and often weak due to factory buffering. Get rid of it with a coarse stone. For the very edge I strop SG2 @35-40 degree inclusive. Or try a micro-bevel.


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Forget all about factory edges. Far too steep, and often weak due to factory buffering. Get rid of it with a coarse stone. For the very edge I strop SG2 @35-40 degree inclusive. Or try a micro-bevel.



Just to be clear, I am not dissing the practical edge retention of the PM steels- they are amazing and better than anything else I have used, even at 14-15 dps, and I really do like them for that. I guess what I'm saying is that I've noticed that while you can get the hair popping/ tree-topping edge with sub-micron stropping, it doesn't seem to last so long (if that makes sense).

I do like the idea of a micro bevel. Would you use both sides or one side? I think Jon Brioda said he uses a right sided micro bevel on some knives. I think he said 30 or 40 degrees.


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## Benuser (Oct 18, 2016)

Micro-bevel @35 degree on the dominant side. It really has to be cut, no rounding towards 35 degree please. Or, alternatively, round both sides up to an inclusive edge of some 35 degree, starting at 25. 
Recognising a burr on a micro-bevel is a bit than usual.


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## malexthekid (Oct 18, 2016)

Nemo said:


> Just to be clear, I am not dissing the practical edge retention of the PM steels- they are amazing and better than anything else I have used, even at 14-15 dps, and I really do like them for that. I guess what I'm saying is that I've noticed that while you can get the hair popping/ tree-topping edge with sub-micron stropping, it doesn't seem to last so long (if that makes sense).
> 
> I do like the idea of a micro bevel. Would you use both sides or one side? I think Jon Brioda said he uses a right sided micro bevel on some knives. I think he said 30 or 40 degrees.



You will find that with practically every steel.


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Micro-bevel @35 degree on the dominant side. It really has to be cut, no rounding towards 35 degree please. Or, alternatively, round both sides up to an inclusive edge of some 35 degree, starting at 25.
> Recognising a burr on a micro-bevel is a bit than usual.



I will give that a try next shapening. Thanks. Is there any set of knives that a micro-bevel works especially well or poorly on?


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## Benuser (Oct 18, 2016)

No idea. Just keep the blade very thin behind the edge. If it has thickened performance loss with a micro-bevel becomes noticeable.


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> You will find that with practically every steel.



It's a good point. On reflection, I've had more experience sharpening PM to a high finish than other steels, so I probably don't have enough experience with other steels to compare. I do suspect that I've been polishing too high for practial kitchen use (but it was fun to do and of educated me a bit about how edges work).


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks everyone who's responded for steering me in the right direction with sharpening. So much still to learn!


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Forget all about factory edges. Far too steep, and often weak due to factory buffering. Get rid of it with a coarse stone. For the very edge I strop SG2 @35-40 degree inclusive. Or try a micro-bevel.



Just read over this again. Does this mean that in your experience 30 degrees inclusive is too narrow for sg2?
I did have a few issues with factory edges (chipping and last mm of tip breaking off on 2 different knives), so that rings true re the factory edges.
Do you strop on leather? What do you load it with?


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## Benuser (Oct 18, 2016)

Nemo said:


> Just read over this again. Does this mean that in your experience 30 degrees inclusive is too narrow for sg2?
> I did have a few issues with factory edges (chipping and last mm of tip breaking off on 2 different knives), so that rings true re the factory edges.
> Do you strop on leather? What do you load it with?



Stropping on stones was meant. And indeed, 30 degree inclusive with the very edge is too steep with this stuff.


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Stropping on stones was meant. And indeed, 30 degree inclusive with the very edge is too steep with this stuff.



I assume you strop on a fine stone? Say 5000 or so? Does the stropping on the stone give a very different edge to using a micro-bevel? 

Is it ok to have a 15dps (or even less) edge if you put a microbevel on? Is that is what you meant when you said don't let the knife ger too thick behind the edge?


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## Benuser (Oct 18, 2016)

Thinness behind the edge: with sharpening you move the edge a little bit towards the spine. To give an idea: with a well-maintained knife just behind the edge thickness is some 0.20mm, at 5mm from the edge it will be about 0.5mm, and at 1cm probably 1mm. Without thinning the edge will start to wedge, even if it very sharp. You won't cut a carrot, you break it.


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Thinness behind the edge: with sharpening you move the edge a little bit towards the spine. To give an idea: with a well-maintained knife just behind the edge thickness is some 0.20mm, at 5mm from the edge it will be about 0.5mm, and at 1cm probably 1mm. Without thinning the edge will start to wedge, even if it very sharp. You won't cut a carrot, you break it.



Does that mean that the thickness of the blade behind the edge is more important than the primary bevel angle when using a micro-bevel? Or are they both important?

Also, I'm wondering whether other PM steels also need an included angle of 35 degrees at the very edge? Does this also apply to carbon and stainless steels? Or does it depend? If so, on what does it depend?


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## Benuser (Oct 18, 2016)

For performance, thinness behind the edge is far more important than the angle of the primary bevel, whether you use a micro-bevel or not. 
A lot of steels perform very well with a far more acute angle, like 25 degree inclusive.


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## Nemo (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks for your insights Benuser


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## Benuser (Oct 18, 2016)

You're most welcome, Nemo.


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## Nemo (Oct 19, 2016)

Benuser said:


> I would choose the Chosera /Naniwa Professional 400, 800 and 3k. The end result is more or less equivalent to JIS 500, 1200 and 4k. I would avoid the Chosera 5k: a bit on the soft side and lacking the response the others offer. Would you need anything after the 3k, you may look for the Naniwa Junpaku 8k.



I'm thinking of going down the Chosera route. James at K&S has a 400/1k/3k set which is a fair bit cheaper than building up a 400/800/3k set would this be a reasonable alternative or is there an issue with the 1k stone?

Given that I prefer push-slices and push-cuts, is it worth taking some of my knives to 8K? Would I be right in guessing that White 2, carbonext could use 8K? What about SKD-12 and the PM steels? Would it be a good stone to strop on?

Thanks.


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## Benuser (Oct 19, 2016)

Nothing wrong with the 1k! And if you have the 400 with it that's an excellent combination. No push-cutter here, so I can't tell. Anyway, the Junpaku is a lot of fun to use and not too expensive.


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## Nemo (Oct 19, 2016)

Thanks again Benuser for your invaluable and prompt advice.


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## Benuser (Oct 19, 2016)

No thanks, my pleasure, Nemo.


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## Nemo (Oct 20, 2016)

Benuser said:


> For performance, thinness behind the edge is far more important than the angle of the primary bevel, whether you use a micro-bevel or not.
> A lot of steels perform very well with a far more acute angle, like 25 degree inclusive.



This got me thinking about what the best angle to sharpen various steels is. I've started a new thread on the topic.


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## Nemo (Oct 24, 2016)

Benuser said:


> I don't want to polish a soft stainless as it will lead to carbides breaking out of the soft matrix and edge instability. The two strokes per side on rough leather a only meant to loosen the remaining burr. Very different from soft carbons that you may take to any high grit.



So for practicing on Furis (?AUS6), should I stop at 400 grit or go on to 1000? What about Wusties?


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## Benuser (Oct 24, 2016)

I actually had the Wüsthofs in mind when writing this. Stop at 400 after stropping on the same, deburr along the edge on both your 400 and 1k, as far as I know your equipment. 
Don't know the Furis, never sharpened one. As for AUS6 and similar, all will depend on the heat treatment, whether you have large carbides or not. Thumb rule: if they are abrasion resistant keep them coarse, if they behave like carbons treat them as carbons.


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## Nemo (Oct 24, 2016)

Benuser said:


> I actually had the Wüsthofs in mind when writing this. Stop at 400 after stropping on the same, deburr along the edge on both your 400 and 1k, as far as I know your equipment.
> Don't know the Furis, never sharpened one. As for AUS6 and similar, all will depend on the heat treatment, whether you have large carbides or not. Thumb rule: if they are abrasion resistant keep them coarse, if they behave like carbons treat them as carbons.



Is that because abrasion resistance comes mainly from large carbides?

Can I extend the rule of thumb to: "abrasion resistant steels take a lower polish, need a higher edge angle but within those limitations will have a longer edge retention"? Or is that taking the principle too far?

To what extent does the PM process (theoretically smaller carbides?) affect this?

Furis seem pretty soft and seem to form a fairly big burr so I assume a poor HT. Not sure if this translates into larger Carbides or not. I'm really only going to use them for sharpening practice so I think I'll treat like Wusties.

Thanks again Benuser for the benefit of your experience.


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## Benuser (Oct 24, 2016)

The rule of thumb was formulated only within the area of AUS6. 440A, AUS6 and 12C27 have a similar composition but may have very different properties. Abrasion resistance is due to (chromium) carbides, yes.


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## Nemo (Oct 25, 2016)

Ok thanks.


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## Nemo (Nov 13, 2016)

I quite like the Choseras. I seem to be able to get a reasonable edge with them. The atona 140 really flattens them quickly. Almost like sanding softwood with coarse grit sandpaper.

I'll just need to see how durable the edges are to make sure that I'm not just getting a wire edge, I guess.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 13, 2016)

If HAP40 (have not) behaves similar to ZDP (have), the usual "just get a king" doesn't apply here (very. very. very. slow. and the edge gets sharp but with a curious lack of bite).


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## Nemo (Nov 14, 2016)

Interesting. I haven't sharpened the HAP40s on Coseras yet. No problems on the EP stones. I don't have ZDP but I have read that HAP is finer grained and not as abrasion resistant.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 14, 2016)

Choseras SEEM to be the best for that, need to try one. As mentioned, I'm usually with the "king. works." crowd, not here...


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## Nemo (Nov 14, 2016)

One of the things I love about this hobby is the complexity of interactions betwen all of the different techniqes and equuipment.


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