# Looking to replace my Hiro AS



## augerpro (Jan 29, 2013)

A while backed I replaced my Shun Classic santoku with a Hiromoto AS gyuto, and really like this blade. However it wedges or grabs a bit on the back half of the blade, so I'm looking at something new (that and I wanted wa handle). On the couple SS clad aogami super knives I could find I really couldn't get much info on teh grind, so I was considering just getting a Kono HD as my 150mm petty has impressed me, very sharp and thin, slides right through anything. But the thread on Kono HD versus Gesshin Ginga has me reconsidering. I don't want to give up much on edge retention and sharpness of my Hiro AS, so is the Ginga stainless pretty comparable? How is the blade profile and grind? I like flat-ish, and of course easy to slide through potatoes and carrots, etc.

And just to throw out two more I was considering, what is the opinion on the Asai Damascus at EE and JCK Kagayaki AS and Kanehiro at **** for my priorities above: sharp and lasting edge, slides through potatoes and carrots, and flat-ish profile?


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## augerpro (Jan 29, 2013)

Also awaiting word from Murray Carter on one of his gyutos similar to these. I've heard they have nice thin blade, and they look very flat from the pics. They mat be out of my price range though.


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## Benuser (Jan 29, 2013)

Your AS needs good thinning, and its geometry to get restored. How has it been sharpened?


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## eaglerock (Jan 29, 2013)

Send Dave a pm about your hiro, he cant sort it out for you.

or buy sakai yusuke or gesshin ginga


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## augerpro (Jan 29, 2013)

Benuser said:


> Your AS needs good thinning, and its geometry to get restored. How has it been sharpened?



I haven't had it long, only lightly sharpened once. I thought about having it thinned, but really would rather have a wa handle, and if I could get it flatter profile, but on that I really can't complain about the Hiro, it is pretty good.


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## augerpro (Jan 29, 2013)

eaglerock said:


> or buy sakai yusuke or gesshin ginga



I was under the impression that white steel like that SY is not long lasting compared to most others? I do my own sharpening and don't mind it, but I don't want to do it often. I do have a Sakai Takayuki AEB-L nakiri that really like, so I'm looking at their gyutos. The nakiri is a little thicker than I expected mid blade, but obviously that doesn't mean their gyutos would be.


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## eaglerock (Jan 29, 2013)

I don't think that is true. My sakai white 2 edge will last for ages but if you wanted it last longer get the swedish SS extra harden


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## Vertigo (Jan 29, 2013)

Carter will impress you in every way except for edge longevity. You said you put emphasis on retention, in which case you'll find both the Kono HD and the Gesshin Ginga superior to your Hiro AS.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 29, 2013)

Since the Kono's went up in price,I agree the Sakai Yusuki is a good buy.The white steel is easy to gt.razor sharp,the HT is good,thin profile all the way.Edge retention is better than alot of stainless, fit & finish +.


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## echerub (Jan 29, 2013)

eaglerock said:


> Send Dave a pm about your hiro, he cant sort it out for you.



I presume that was supposed to be "can" 

Dave's done some great work on quite a number of Hiro AS's.


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## augerpro (Jan 29, 2013)

Is the Sakai Yasuke all white steel, no cladding? I'm looking to stay with some SS clad carbon steel (or all SS obviously). So no one has experience with the mentioned Asai, Kanehiro, or JCK Kagayaki?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 29, 2013)

augerpro said:


> Is the Sakai Yasuke all white steel, no cladding? I'm looking to stay with some SS clad carbon steel (or all SS obviously). So no one has experience with the mentioned Asai, Kanehiro, or JCK Kagayaki?



The JCK Kagayaki AS is not stainless clad. The damascus is fairly reactive until a patina is formed. 

Here's a link to a review:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/1146-Kagayaki-Aogami-Super-24cm-Wa-gyuto-Review

Rick


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## augerpro (Jan 29, 2013)

PT thanks for the heads-up and the review!


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## ThEoRy (Jan 30, 2013)

Yeah I even etched the hell out of a kagayaki and it was still very reactive. Excellent cutter with good geometry however.


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## eaglerock (Jan 30, 2013)

echerub said:


> I presume that was supposed to be "can"
> 
> Dave's done some great work on quite a number of Hiro AS's.



LOL i meant he sure can


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## eaglerock (Jan 30, 2013)

augerpro said:


> Is the Sakai Yasuke all white steel, no cladding? I'm looking to stay with some SS clad carbon steel (or all SS obviously). So no one has experience with the mentioned Asai, Kanehiro, or JCK Kagayaki?



You can get the sakai in SS too, and it seems like bluewayjapan got a couple in stock.

And what about the gesshin ginga from Jon? just bought one yesterday :wink:


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## augerpro (Jan 30, 2013)

eaglerock said:


> You can get the sakai in SS too, and it seems like bluewayjapan got a couple in stock.
> 
> And what about the gesshin ginga from Jon? just bought one yesterday :wink:



That SS Sakai Yasuke looks very interesting! From the comments I can find it seems close to what I'm looking for, although I don't like big handles. I suppose it wouldn't take much to plane and sand them. 

As I mentioned in the first post I was really considering a Kono HD, but the Ginga made me rethink that and start this thread. Anyone use a Ginga and Sakai Yasuke?


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## eaglerock (Jan 30, 2013)

My Ginga will be here next week, if you can wait i can compare both.


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## augerpro (Jan 30, 2013)

I look forward to it!!


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## augerpro (Jan 31, 2013)

I bought them both too  Both in the Swedish Steel.


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## eaglerock (Feb 1, 2013)

:bigeek:


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## augerpro (Feb 1, 2013)

eaglerock said:


> My Ginga will be here next week, if you can wait i can compare both.



Since these are similar knives, what are you hoping the Ginga has that the SY does not?


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## eaglerock (Feb 1, 2013)

Sorry i forgot to mention that the Ginga will be 210 ss petty, while my Yusuke is 240 w2 gyuto.


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## Mike9 (Feb 1, 2013)

I don't know man - I just did a rehandle, thinned and put a killer edge on my 270 Hiro AS and it's a wonderful knife. Might be worth a little upgrade to yours - you might give Dave a holler.


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## augerpro (Feb 1, 2013)

How much did you pay for the rehandle? I don't like yo handles at all.


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## Mike9 (Feb 2, 2013)

I made it myself so I made the new one wider and fuller. I usually don't like Yo handles either, but I got used to this immediately. But if you don't like them then you don't like them and that's that.


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## augerpro (Feb 5, 2013)

Here is a pic of SY (top) versus Ginga (bottom):







They look like they came off the same assembly line! Thickness of blade is similar, maybe a bit more taper toward the tip for the Ginga. Thickness behind the edge seems close with just my fingers, I may have to break out the calipers to really measure a difference, but they both probably qualify as lasers. Both have nicely rounded edges. Handles look identical. Profile is near identical - laying a ruler along the edge from heel to about 5 inches in they both have about 3/32" of belly above the ruler. The Ginga tip might be a little lower. Very excited to use them today!!


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## eaglerock (Feb 5, 2013)

Wow you really went big 

Will you keep both  ?


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## augerpro (Feb 5, 2013)

One will get sold. I'll probably have to flip a coin. Just cut up some carrots and potatoes and both slide through like my Hiro AS never could. Both are similarly sharp. I thought I remember seeing the SY listed as symmetric ground but putting a straight edge to it, it is definitely asymmetric. I might go with the Ginga just for its symmetric edge, keeps me from having to think too much when I sharpen it.


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## Benuser (Feb 5, 2013)

Potatoes and carrots shouldn't be a problem with an adequately sharpened Hiromoto IMO unless you have let it become far too fat behind the edge or otherwise messed up its geometry.
I just have to think too much when dealing with a symmetric edge.


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## augerpro (Feb 5, 2013)

The edge itself on the Hiro was about as sharp as these two, and it cut great. It just seemed like it would grab near the back of the blade if I was limp-wristing it. Probably has more to do with my technique than the knife. And probably unrealistic expectations, there is no such thing as a lightsaber after all...but I am impressed with the Ginga and SY so far in this regard.


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## mhlee (Feb 6, 2013)

Benuser said:


> Potatoes and carrots shouldn't be a problem with an adequately sharpened Hiromoto IMO unless you have let it become far too fat behind the edge or otherwise messed up its geometry.
> I just have to think too much when dealing with a symmetric edge.



The brand new, initially sharpened by Dave - so sharp it cut through my skin on slight contact - Hiromoto AS 240 Gyuto I had wedged somewhat on potatoes and carrots. I noticed that, as the edge degraded, it wedged more. The edge was, as I recall, 50/50. 

I'll give my Gesshin Ginga 240 White 2 Wa Gyuto a run at some potatoes and carrots today. I anticipate that the Ginga will have much less wedging than the Hiromoto.


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## Benuser (Feb 6, 2013)

A 50/50 edge with a Hiromoto is not that common.


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## mhlee (Feb 6, 2013)

Benuser said:


> A 50/50 edge with a Hiromoto is not that common.



My point was that, even with the original geometry and original edge/bevels which were close to 50/50, I experienced wedging with a very, very sharp Hiromoto.


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## augerpro (Feb 6, 2013)

Question for you guys: on an asymmetric blade is the flat-ish left side edge angle typically more acute than the convexed right side? Or the other way around? I'm trying to figure out the angles on a knife and the marker trick isn't really working since the left side bevel is so tiny.


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## Benuser (Feb 7, 2013)

With a strongly asymmetric blade the left angle has almost no influence on the performance but may or may not strengthen the edge considerably. A less acute angel will somewhat balance friction between both sides reducing steering, and recenter the edge a little bit as well. All reasons to choose a more obtuse left angle.


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## augerpro (Feb 7, 2013)

Thanks Benuser!


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## Benuser (Feb 7, 2013)

You're welcome, Brandon. Hope it helps. Bernard


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## augerpro (Feb 7, 2013)

So I just touched up the Sakai Yasuke and my sharpening skills are getting better - it was sharper than factory! I went with symmetric angles, even though the grind is a little asymmetric. Weird thing is the edge angle appears to be really low, like 12, using the marker method. The edge was so much like the Ginga, now I'm wondering what the Ginga edge angle is? 12 seems pretty low to me, not sure I want to go with that if that is what it is. I do like the sharpness though.


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## Benuser (Feb 7, 2013)

Probably you may go much, much lower by thinning behind the edge, and add a 30 degree microbevel on the right side. See Jon Broida's video. It won't be your sharpest knife, just your best performing one.


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## franzb69 (Feb 7, 2013)

only things i can get sharper than factory are carbons. stainless i suck at.


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## ThEoRy (Feb 7, 2013)

franzb69 said:


> only things i can get sharper than factory are carbons. stainless i suck at.



Ever try AEB-L? Sharpens very similar to 52100.


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## franzb69 (Feb 8, 2013)

one day i will. =D

gotta have the money first.


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## mhlee (Feb 8, 2013)

Benuser said:


> Probably you may go much, much lower by thinning behind the edge, and add a 30 degree microbevel on the right side. See Jon Broida's video. It won't be your sharpest knife, just your best performing one.



Have you personally done this before to a Ginga and compared an out of the box Ginga to a Ginga with one that's been thinned as you propose?


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## Benuser (Feb 8, 2013)

No, I regret,


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## mhlee (Feb 10, 2013)

IMHO, I would not mess with thinning until it's necessary, since, if you do a serious thinning job on a knife, you can't undo it. 

I spent some time yesterday morning trimming and slicing some raw bamboo shoots, chopping and slicing carrots, onions and sweet potatoes. The Ginga only had minor wedging toward the root end of a sweet potato, but otherwise, handled the hard vegetables effortlessly. Some veg stuck to the blade, but otherwise, it generally had very good food release. 

In my experience, the Hiromoto can get a sharper edge (I haven't tried to sharpen my Ginga to that level and I may not be able to even get it to that level because of my lack of skill). And, for those who do not like lasers, the Ginga will likely not be your cup of tea. But, there is no question in my mind that, as far as overall performance is concerned (except for edge retention because I haven't used the Ginga long enough), e.g. less resistance when cutting, lack of wedging, food release, balance and comfort, the Ginga is superior to a Hiromoto to me.


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## augerpro (Mar 7, 2013)

Just FYI I kept the Ginga. I really love this knife for my style of cutting. Having a symmetric edge was the deciding factor since I'm pretty new to sharpening and I don't want to screw up a grind. Anyway I sold the Sakai Yusuke to friend who has some pro experience years ago, so he typically is a chopper. He loved the sharpness but was kind of put off by the light weight, and said he was afraid to put much force into it. Any alternatives I could recommend if he decides to try something else? For some reason the Asai Aogami Super at EE came to mind, but I just looked and half those knives just went to backorder, not sure what that is about?


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## augerpro (Mar 7, 2013)

Maybe I should recommend the Kobayashi Seikon Dojo since I just sold him a nakiri in the line. the upper blade was thicker which added some real heft and that worried me a bit. But the area above the edge was actually quite thin. For a chopper it really made an ideal combination. Also the Blue #2 sounds pretty tough and I found it pretty unreactive. This was all from experience with the nakiri though, not sure how their gyuto compares.


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