# Do I need a new sharpening stone to care for my wife's new VG10 knifes?



## DeoreDX (Jan 6, 2017)

Seems like the consensus around here is to use a waterstone to sharpen knives. I currently only have Arkansas stones for sharpening my knives. This is what I already have and it does a great job with my carbon steel and old Henkle and Wusthof knives. I can get a scary keen edge on them with my Arkansas.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01C9SPPDW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I understand that VG10 is pretty darned hard and waterstones tend to move material quicker than an Arkansas stone. Will trying to sharpen clad VG10 knives on an Arkansas be an exercise in frustration? Other than the waterstones being able to move metal quicker will I be able to create a sufficient edge on a VG10 knife with a set of Arkansas stones or do i need to invest in new sharpening tools? I'm not one to rebevel a knife. Just looking at maintaining the edge. I already have too much junk on my workbench I don't want to clutter it up with more stuff if I don't have to :lol2:


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## psfred (Jan 6, 2017)

VG-10 is somewhat harder that typical "german" steel knives, but you should be able to do a decent job with Arkansas. It will take somewhat longer, but the flip side of that is you will not need to sharpen anywhere near as often.

I also recommend that you do not use a knife steel on VG-10 knives -- they are harder than the typical steel, and using a serrated one on them can result in fairly severe edge damage that you will NOT want to use Arkansas stones to repair, way too slow.

I can sympathize with the desire to reduce clutter, but VG-10 will sharpen much better with waterstones. For home use you are probably fine, as you will only need to do serious sharpening maybe once or twice a year unless you chip a knife.

Speaking of chips, make sure your wife understands that rotating a VG-10 knife in contact the a cutting board WILL break chunks off the edge. I've managed to chip my Tojiro DP paring knife. No rock chopping, ever, unless you want to restore the edge all the time. Push cut is the way to go. They are very much thinner and sharper, so will be easy to use, just make sure no side force is applied.

No cutting bones, either -- use the Henkles for that.

Peter


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## Smashmasta (Jan 6, 2017)

DeoreDX said:


> Seems like the consensus around here is to use a waterstone to sharpen knives. I currently only have Arkansas stones for sharpening my knives. This is what I already have and it does a great job with my carbon steel and old Henkle and Wusthof knives. I can get a scary keen edge on them with my Arkansas.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01C9SPPDW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> I understand that VG10 is pretty darned hard and waterstones tend to move material quicker than an Arkansas stone. Will trying to sharpen clad VG10 knives on an Arkansas be an exercise in frustration? Other than the waterstones being able to move metal quicker will I be able to create a sufficient edge on a VG10 knife with a set of Arkansas stones or do i need to invest in new sharpening tools? I'm not one to rebevel a knife. Just looking at maintaining the edge. I already have too much junk on my workbench I don't want to clutter it up with more stuff if I don't have to :lol2:



You'll have to try sharpening the knife first to know if it will be frustrating, and it depends on what kind of edge you're trying to get - just because they're 3 grits in the set doesn't mean that you HAVE to use all of them. But I can almost guarantee that a great deal of synthetic stones will be faster and give you a wider range of results. That being said, there's nothing 'wrong' with using Arkansas stones if they work for you. Not all synths need to be expensive, and many of them can handle steels way harder and abrasion resistant than VG-10.


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## Ruso (Jan 6, 2017)

Before spending more $$ try it out with what you have and judge it by yourself.


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## guari (Jan 6, 2017)

Sorry to piggyback on the thread, but is the opposite true? Would a whetstone be better for german stainless steel? Or is the arkansas (or something else) better suited for softer steels?


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## Ruso (Jan 6, 2017)

guari said:


> Sorry to piggyback on the thread, but is the opposite true? Would a whetstone be better for german stainless steel? Or is the arkansas (or something else) better suited for softer steels?


I don't have the first hand experience with Arkansas stones and I would love to hear expert opinion. 
But my 2 cents are that water stones are generally faster cutters and you have much more grit selection and types compared to Arkansas. Hence, in theory they will be "better" option for almost all scenarios when talking about double bevel knives.


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## Nemo (Jan 6, 2017)

@ Deore: Which VG10 knife are we talking about?

Also, isn't the coarse stone in that setup silicon carbide? Does it give a grit number? SiC stones can be ptretty aggressive depending on the bonding medium. Do you sharpen with oil or water or dry?


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## Smashmasta (Jan 6, 2017)

Ruso said:


> I don't have the first hand experience with Arkansas stones and I would love to hear expert opinion.
> But my 2 cents are that water stones are generally faster cutters and you have much more grit selection and types compared to Arkansas. Hence, in theory they will be "better" option for almost all scenarios when talking about double bevel knives.



Haha, I'm about to be that guy that says, "I haven't tried it, but I've read about it, so..."

So yeah, I haven't used Arkansas stones, but I've read about them... They're actually kinda cool. Rather than almost all other natural stones, they aren't measured by an estimated grit value, but rather their specific gravity, although they can still roughly be described by their grit. As many know, their colors are the main way of conversing about their hardness, although the link below states that this isn't the best way to go about it. They're composed of pure novaculite which is a form of quartzite, which is composed of SO2.

This page has a good chart on the bottom and a quick 101 about them. In fact, their grit density and or grit size is typically nearly all the same, but the hardness of the stone is the main determining factor of the stones abrasive properties - the softer stones give up and have the quartzite exposed faster than denser harder stones. 

Blah, blah. Anyways, since we're most likely talking about synthetic or Jnats, yes, there is much wider variety in types, grits, and finishes, etc than Arkansas stones, although if you include the Washita at ~400 to, let's just say ~2000 for a black hard, than that's close to *roughly* 800-4000 JIS standards, so it's not terrible in grit selection, and could even be argued that on grit range alone, would actually be ideal for knives. But this isn't really the case due to their hardness. The harder translucent and blacks are typically the most sought after, and are common in the razor shaving world because they're so fine and hard. And although these might only go up to 4000 JIS, they're super hard, so are slow going, and because the particles or only exposed very slowly, they make a fine edge, which is why they're used with razors. Last fun fact - novaculite means 'razor stone' in Latin.

Which is better for which steel? I'm sure you can get good edges off both types of steels with Arkansas and whatever else. I don't think pure S02 found in some synthetics, nor novaculite discriminate on the origin or hardness of the steel too much. But as I said, Arkansas stones are favored in the razor world, and since razors are generally tempered ~60-62HRC (I believe), they go together if a fine edge is desired. I think VG-10 is around this as well, but since you don't want to take as long as it it takes to hone a razor, other stones or synthetics are probably a better option. This is likely is part of the reason Arkansas stones aren't commonly mentioned on this forum - there are other better options for increased speed and edge variation for kitchen knives than Arkansas stones, for the most part.


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## Krassi (Jan 6, 2017)

Hiho!

Natural Stone finisher make sense once you have really sharpend the blade with something that gets the job done and has strong shaping power.
You can use your Arkansas super fine stones after that for a scarier edge.. but i would also never get the idea to start with a Suita or Nakayama, both super fine finishing stones and then have to scrub the knife for 30minutes -1hour to remove enough material to get it sharp (if it was dull before)
A good fast synthetic 1k and 6-8k could be all you needand then you can give them the "finishing move" with the Arkansas or other natural super fine stones.


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## jc57 (Jan 7, 2017)

I have some Arkansas stones. They'll cut VG-10. Might be a little slow if you have a lot of work to do. I personally wouldn't run my VG-10 kitchen knives over a coarse SiC stone like the one in that set, but the soft and hard Arks won't hurt them. A typical hard Arkansas leaves about an 800-grit edge. You can refine it with a strop and some compound, or move onto finer stones if you have them.

As others have suggested, give it a try and see if you like the results. I'd suggest not waiting until the knife needs a LOT of work, but just touch up on the hard Ark and keep the edge relatively sharp all of the time.


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## chinacats (Jan 7, 2017)

I grew up using and still have at least one Arkansas stone somewhere...tried a synthetic waterstone once and never touched the Arkansas again...and no desire to ever go back...buy a cheap waterstone (King) and enjoy.


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## Marek07 (Jan 7, 2017)

chinacats said:


> I grew up using and still have at least one Arkansas stone somewhere...tried a synthetic waterstone once and never touched the Arkansas again...and no desire to ever go back...buy a cheap waterstone (King) and enjoy.


*+1*
Had only 2 small Arkansas stones >30 years as well as Chinese SiC stones and used both with oil. Definitely wouldn't go back but as the OP said they didn't want more clutter, I'd say try your VG-10 knives on the Arkansas before purchasing any water stones. You have nothing to lose; certainly won't hurt the steel. I'm fairly sure you'll get a satisfactory edge - however it'll probably take ~10 times longer than it would with a couple of humble Japanese synths.


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## paulraphael (Jan 7, 2017)

Also, regarding the clutter, maybe you've read some threads around here and assume waterstones = a whole shed full of exotic slabs with incrementally different grit values? You can in fact get single combination stone, like a King that's medium grit on one side, fine on the other, which will meet all your needs (not counting serious reprofiling, big repairs, or a latent waterstone addiction). 

They cost under $30 and are smaller than a 1980s cell phone.


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## Marek07 (Jan 7, 2017)

paulraphael said:


> ...They cost under $30 and are smaller than a 1980s cell phone...


You're right and quite an appropriate analogy - many referred to their 80s' phones as bricks.

Off topic question but as Arkansas stones have been mentioned a few times... is there any point "cleaning" mine to remove oil and using them with water instead. Interested how they compare to Japanese synths & nats. I've read various opinions on other forums (biased towards razors) but most suggest sticking with oil.


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## psfred (Jan 7, 2017)

Arkansas stone are tightly bound silica, and all of the stones have similar sized particles (15 micron if I remember correctly). Fairly coarse by synthetic stone standards. The differences are in how dense the stone is and how tightly the particles are stuck together -- the denser and harder the stone, the less the particles will shed and since the silica particles chip in use, hard stones "polish" and produce shallower and finer scratches than "soft" ones.

Quite a few people swear by Arkansas and maintain that they produce better and longer lasting edges than synthetic stones, and some of that opinion may be fact --- they have rounder particles than synthetic stones and are softer, so they produce flatter and shallower scratches. They work well with carbon steel, certainly, but when you start trying to use exotic high hardness steels they cut VERY slowly. Most people report that steels like well hardened (RC 60 plus) A2 just skate around on them, very little abrasion happens.

Those tri-hones aren't going to have the greatest stones on them -- really good Arkies are not very common and are as expensive as Jnats, for good reason, they are no longer mined in great quantities and the best surface sources are used up. 

One of the main attractions of Arkansas stones prior to the advent of inexpensive synthetic stones is their very slow wear rate, at least for the harder ones, making them a great improvement over other natural stones at the time. They do wear, though, and I've seen some saddle shaped ones that people swear work as well as flat ones, but I take that with a large grain of salt..... 

Won't hurt to try them for sure, but I think a combination waterstone will be much nicer to use. The King 1000/6000 is OK, although the 1000 side wears really fast. I prefer a Suehiro for gifts, myself, and use a Bester 1200 and a King 6000 or Suehiro 5000 Rika for my knives.

Peter


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## Benuser (Jan 7, 2017)

No special knowledge about Arkansas here. I have seen they work fine with simple -- and somewhat less simple -- carbons. I've even touched up Aogami Super with it, quite OK. 
But VG-10 is a bit a special case. A burr won't fall off as with a carbon steel, and if it were to, it would leave a severely damaged edge behind.
The VG-10 burr needs to get carefully abraded with at any next step a finer stone. Probably no need for a full sharpening at every stage of the progression, but at least some very light stropping, followed by deburring along the edge. I don't think naturals can be very helpful in this respect.


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