# Microbevel and maintenance



## Benuser (Jan 10, 2022)

Given an edge without a microbevel, I can as a home user postpone full sharpening for a huge amount of time by frequently touching-up. A few edge leading strokes and deburring on Blue Belgian, done.
With an edge with a single-sided microbevel, though, things get more complicated. I have to hit the microbevel very exactly. After all, the idea is it shouldn't alter the geometry. If I don't hit it correctly, either I don't reach the very edge, or I widen the microbevel. In the first case I leave the burr. I find it hard to recognise a burr on the microbevel. In the second one I lose performance. 
Any thoughts?


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## lasagna pe (Jan 10, 2022)

I'm not very good at this either. If I have the time I sometimes take out my loupe to inspect, but that's only after the fact and I do it rarely. I'd be curious to hear if others have some advice on hitting the microbevel spot-on as well...I'm terrible at it. I struggle with this on my Masahiro MV (so, not a true one-sided knife but it *is* a right-angle blade) and also an el cheapo yanagiba (traditional Japanese) that I use on stuff I really shouldn't use a yanagiba for. But it's too fun otherwise! Thanks @Benuser for posing the question.


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## adam92 (Jan 11, 2022)

I use micro bevel on most of my knives, some stop at 2k, some 4k, my experience is do it slowly if not confident with what angle you want to do it, as all knives have different angle. Not sure about hard to recognise the burr, as the micro bevel form the burr, even on 8k grit. I work in professional kitchen, micro bevel really useful to last longer the edge retention.


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## Benuser (Jan 11, 2022)

adam92 said:


> I use micro bevel on most of my knives, some stop at 2k, some 4k, my experience is do it slowly if not confident with what angle you want to do it, as all knives have different angle. Not sure about hard to recognise the burr, as the micro bevel form the burr, even on 8k grit. I work in professional kitchen, micro bevel really useful to last longer the edge retention.


Sure, but my question was more related to touching-up once there is a microbevel. Installing it is not my problem, my problem is in maintaining it without having to fully resharpen.


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## stringer (Jan 11, 2022)

adam92 said:


> I use micro bevel on most of my knives, some stop at 2k, some 4k, my experience is do it slowly if not confident with what angle you want to do it, as all knives have different angle. Not sure about hard to recognise the burr, as the micro bevel form the burr, even on 8k grit. I work in professional kitchen, micro bevel really useful to last longer the edge retention.



I'm with @adam92. I don't really focus too much on raising a burr as I sharpen. If I can't raise a burr on my microbevel with a medium to fine synthetic with just a few strokes then it is time to sharpen and probably thin too.


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## stringer (Jan 11, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Sure, but my question was more related to touching-up once there is a microbevel. Installing it is not my problem, my problem is in maintaining it without having to fully resharpen.



I just try and sneak up on it. I do in-hand edge leading with naturals. Very light pressure. That way I raise as little burr as possible. I don't think synthetics are great for this. I don't like leather. Stropping on a taut rag works well for me


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## Benuser (Jan 11, 2022)

stringer said:


> I just try and sneak up on it. I do in-hand edge leading with naturals. Very light pressure. That way I raise as little burr as possible. I don't think synthetics are great for this. I don't like leather. Stropping on a taut rag works well for me


Thanks, @stringer 
Language problem here: what is a taut rag??


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## stringer (Jan 11, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Thanks, @stringer
> Language problem here: what is a taut rag??



I take a kitchen towel and attach one end so something. Pull it tight. Then strop on that


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## adam92 (Jan 11, 2022)

stringer said:


> I take a kitchen towel and attach one end so something. Pull it tight. Then strop on that


Sometimes I do liked you as well, when I have card board or newspaper, I use them, I felt like newspaper & card board give me much more bite than leather, newspaper stropping I learned from Jon video


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## adam92 (Jan 11, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Sure, but my question was more related to touching-up once there is a microbevel. Installing it is not my problem, my problem is in maintaining it without having to fully resharpen.


I think maintain microbevel is same as sharpening, just only need to control the angle & the pressure. Even there’s very little burr or no burr, don’t worry about it. Mircro bevel just few strop, more like touch up, if you sharpen at micro bevel angle with too many strop, I think that became sharpening more than touch up? I only use less than two minutes on the micro bevel when I feel like knife not sharp enough.


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## cotedupy (Jan 11, 2022)

I like the nicheness of this question!

If I understand correctly the problem here is revolving around deburring when a burr has only been created on one side (even if it is a just very small one). And a microburr that has only been created on one side is I imagine going to be a bit more clingy than normal sharpening burrs. So I imagine the answer is to use something quite aggressive for stropping / deburring, as a couple of others have said. Maybe even with paste if you can be bothered.

Cotton (again as others have said), is extremely good for stropping knives I find. Perhaps even better than cardboard / paper.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 11, 2022)

To reduce confusion I will use the same definitions as this diagram:







[I wish I could properly attribute this image - I cant determine the original source. It is a good image!]


The commonly cited reason for using a micro-bevel is to strengthen a thin edge. Geometries ground to a zero angle are good candidates for a micro-bevel... whether they are convex, concave or flat. By making the angle at the edge more obtuse, you are effectively supporting it with more material. Like you say:



Benuser said:


> the idea is it shouldn't alter the geometry



Thats right. Although the absolute edge becomes more obtuse, since the new bevel is 'micro' it does not change the cutting geometry. That is; the knife does not become (meaningfully) thicker behind the edge.

If you keep touching up at the micro-bevel angle... at some point it becomes... a macro-bevel . Once you get to this point it is really a secondary bevel! Note that the diagram does not distinguish between the secondary bevel and a micro-bevel. Perhaps the difference is really philosophical? Each touch up will require a little more work than the previous one. Eventually you cross some boundary and you are really sharpening. Like @adam92 says:




adam92 said:


> if you sharpen at micro bevel angle with too many strop, I think that became sharpening more than touch up?




Exactly... the more material you have to remove, the more time you will have to spend sharpening. It just is what it is!! You are touching up if you can bring an edge back to life with a few strokes... or if you can exclusively work on your higher grit stones. If you have to drop a grit and work a little longer, you are sharpening your secondary bevel. And that isn't 'wrong'!!




Benuser said:


> my question was more related to touching-up once there is a microbevel



As the others have said, there are various forms of stropping. I use high grit stones.

When touching up (micro-bevel) turns into sharpening (secondary-bevel)... no problem! It just means more effort. You can keep sharpening until the bevel becomes noticeably thick behind the edge. At that point, consider thinning.

Or... you can choose to thin early (before it impacts on cutting). Remember, it is easier to remove small things than it is to remove big things! Thin at your primary bevel angle until you have removed the secondary-bevel. Once you have a zero-grind, you can reinstate a micro-bevel.


... as for burrs... I dont think about them. If you work on a secondary or micro-bevel I don't think you should be using heavy pressure. I use edge leading strokes at a high rake angle. Think: putting the blade across the stone so the heel touches one corner and the tip touches the diagonally opposite corner. You can finish off with some light edge trailing strokes (also high rake angles). For me, this creates negligible burrs.


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## Benuser (Jan 11, 2022)

stringer said:


> I take a kitchen towel and attach one end so something. Pull it tight. Then strop on that


Thanks!


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## r0bz (Jan 11, 2022)

stringer said:


> I just try and sneak up on it. I do in-hand edge leading with naturals. Very light pressure. That way I raise as little burr as possible. I don't think synthetics are great for this. I don't like leather. Stropping on a taut rag works well for me


what is a taut rag ?
nvm i saw the answer above XD


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## ian (Jan 11, 2022)

I think it’s almost impossible to hit a microbevel exactly while sharpening freehand, assuming the microbevel is really small. You won’t be able to feel it like you can a bigger bevel. The best you can do is try to replicate the angle you used, and pay attention to visual and tactile feedback. If the microbevel’s really small and you miss the angle slightly, you’ll essentially just make a new microbevel at the new angle, since it doesn’t take much to completely abrade the previous one. So no worries, as long as you make sure to hit the edge at some point. I would either:

1) not stress about this much, just remember that there’s a microbevel, and adjust your angle accordingly, or

2) use a jig at a preset angle if you're unwilling to sacrifice angle control.


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## SilverSwarfer (Jan 11, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> It is a good image!


+1

The 'Hamaguriba' = 'clam shell blade' imagery is useful for me as a target shape. Most recently, I have not focused much on the microbevel per se, but rather the over-arching concept of Hamaguriba serves as a perfect regimen for edge maintenance on my blades.

For gyuto touch-ups: most often, I use a Hakka or Suita and do alternating sweeping strokes (edge-leading to edge trailing on the left side then edge-trailing to edge-leading on the right side) with decreasing pressure and increasing angle for ~10-15 passes as needed. I adjust pressure/angle/reps based on how the edge feels on my fingertips and/or thumbnail. I do this as often as I have time until geometry demands thinning. Strop lightly on cardboard works best for me lately.


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## ian (Jan 11, 2022)

r0bz said:


> what is a taut rag ?
> nvm i saw the answer above XD



Sounds like it's a British insult. "Bit of a taut rag, that one."


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## stringer (Jan 11, 2022)

Taut rag


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## ian (Jan 11, 2022)

Ooooh, stroke it, you cheeky blighter.


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## Carl Kotte (Jan 11, 2022)

We all need Bogdan 
Greetings S


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## M1k3 (Jan 11, 2022)

18.5°!


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## r0bz (Jan 11, 2022)

Carl Kotte said:


> We all need Bogdan
> Greetings S


what do you mean ?


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## Carl Kotte (Jan 11, 2022)

r0bz said:


> what do you mean ?


It’s a guided sharpening system.


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## M1k3 (Jan 11, 2022)

Carl Kotte said:


> It’s a guided sharpening system.


That's what the girl said!


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## Kawa (Jan 11, 2022)

I read your question more like: how do I find the angle of my microbevel, where you give examples what happens when you do it wrong: to shallow angle = no improvement in cutting, too steep angle and you have a burr that you need to remove again.

Havent read too many replies that answer this, so I might be reading the original question wrong?



What you can try is make your own 'angle guide' tool. I like to use a plastic straw for this. You need those small (about 3mm diameter) cocktail straws
- Decide the angle you are giving the knive (normal or micro bevel, it doesnt matter in this example)
- Hold the knife steady when you found it
- Bring the straw towards the back of the knive, holding the straw vertically (so the 'round sucking hole' of the straw is flat on your stone)
- Somewhere the knife hits the straw. *Put your index fingers nail exactly on the spot where the knives back and the straw touch eachother*. Hold your nail steady and then bend/bow the straw around this spot on your nail, so that you make a kink/line/bend (?) in the straw.
Thats your angle guide for this knive.

Its important you use a plastic straw for this. Once you bend the straw, there will be a line visable and feelable forever. So everytime you just want to touch up your microbevel at the same angle as the last time, take the straw.
ofcourse you need to decide a place on your knife aswell, for example 'at the end of the first kanji', due to the knives height.

Hard to explain in words. If interessted, I can do a quick photo. 

It takes a little time to get used to this. You have to remember the feeling about how the knives back should hit your nail etc. But after a few times, this cheap trick works surprisingly well!

The hardest part is to obtain plastic straws. Holland forbids (the whole world?) to sell these since last july and now there are all paper. There are still places that sell them.

I just bought 4000 straws, cut them in 3 pieces. So I can do 12000 knives this way. Im setteled for live, and the live after that.


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## Benuser (Jan 11, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I read your question more like: how do I find the angle of my microbevel, where you give examples what happens when you do it wrong: to shallow angle = no improvement in cutting, too steep angle and you have a burr that you need to remove again.
> 
> Havent read too many replies that answer this, so I might be reading the original question wrong?
> 
> ...


You very well pointed out my problem.
How to hit exactly the microbevel. I do have tricks to make sure I have the same angle, but was curious how others did. Even as a home user, I often use a quick touching-up, especially with soft carbons, where a microbevel is more than welcome as it allows a much thinner geometry. Touching-up on a piece of Belgian Blue in my hand is so easy and so fast, I don't want to miss it, but once a microbevel is involved I'm messing it up, at least so far, unless I work with a construction to assure a 45 degree angle. Not exactly the idea of a fast touching-up in the kitchen or wherever. I've got a few new options I will give a try. Thank you for time, guys!


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Jan 11, 2022)

This may not apply, but if your micro bevel is really micro it should conform to your new touch up angle in a few strokes assuming that your in the ball park.


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## Delat (Jan 11, 2022)

Benuser said:


> You very well pointed out my problem.
> How to hit exactly the microbevel. I do have tricks to make sure I have the same angle, but was curious how others did. Even as a home user, I often use a quick touching-up, especially with soft carbons, where a microbevel is more than welcome as it allows a much thinner geometry. Touching-up on a piece of Belgian Blue in my hand is so easy and so fast, I don't want to miss it, but once a microbevel is involved I'm messing it up, at least so far, unless I work with a construction to assure a 45 degree angle. Not exactly the idea of a fast touching-up in the kitchen or wherever. I've got a few new options I will give a try. Thank you for time, guys!



I use this gizmo, which still says I suck but much less than I used to: Gizmo says I suck

I've gotten my accuracy to within about .7 degrees now. I approach my target angle as a "not to exceed" target, so for my standard 15 degrees I try to keep my variance within the range of 14.5 - 15.2. 

Works great for me because I don't sharpen often and my knives are never truly "dull". So using my gizmo is quite slow but I tend to only need very few strokes to get back to very sharp and typically just on a single stone (my SG4000). The OCD in me appreciates knowing I'm nailing the exact same angle every single time.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 11, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Touching-up on a piece of Belgian Blue in my hand is so easy and so fast, I don't want to miss it, but once a microbevel is involved I'm messing it up, at least so far



I dont really understand the distinction you are making between touching-up (easy and fast) and a micro-bevel?? If touching up on the Belgian Blue is working for you.... it sounds like you are doing the right things??





VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> if your micro bevel is really micro it should conform to your new touch up angle in a few strokes assuming that your in the ball park.



Exactly!!!

If you used 12 degrees per side last week... and 14 degrees this week... it doesn't really matter. You have to remove little material. Just dont change the angle by 10 degrees!




Benuser said:


> unless I work with a construction to assure a 45 degree angle





That is a desperate resort!! 45 degrees inclusive (both sides) is a really heavy duty cutting edge. It wont feel that sharp. 45 degrees _per side_ is unimaginable. That knife will not cut well.

You can use very high angles to debur. Use a high grit stone and do only one or two very light passes. Not only does this debur the edge, it makes sure you have properly hit the apex. This truly is a micro-bevel. But if the bevel before it (secondary bevel) is called a micro-bevel... than perhaps this bevel should be called a nano-bevel


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## Luftmensch (Jan 11, 2022)

I drew a diagram, similar to the previous hamaguriba image. This is how woodworkers sharpen plane irons:






The primary bevel is usually set at something like 25 degrees. This bevel has no real function during planning. It is set at a more acute angle than the secondary bevel so that you only have to sharpen a small surface area. The secondary bevel angle used depends on the task/wood... it could be as low as 15 degrees for smoothing softwood (obviously this would require a different primary bevel)... it could be as high as 35-40 degrees for reducing tear-out on figures (difficult) hardwood.

As you sharpen the secondary bevel... it gets wider and wider. Plane irons can be around ~62HRC. Sharpening a wide secondary bevel will take a long time. At this point woodworkers with all the good gear will take their plane back to a tormek and grind down the primary-bevel to a zero angle. After resetting the primary bevel, the appropriate secondary bevel will be restored.

So what about micro-bevels? This can be done to debur the plane iron and make sure the cutting edge is properly formed and polished. It only needs to be 1-2 degrees higher than the secondary bevel angle. Like I said earlier; a few light strokes on a high grit stone. It should be invisible to the naked eye... or right at the limit. The next time you sharpen at the secondary bevel angle, you should be able to remove the micro-bevel in a few seconds.

This is how *I* think about kitchen knives. It is pretty similar. Touch-up and sharpen at the secondary bevel angle. Thin down the primary bevel (grind) when the secondary bevel gets too thick behind the edge. I might put a micro-bevel on the knife at the end of a touch-up or sharpening session to deburr or polish the edge - again; a couple of super light passes on a high grit stone. This is about removing fatigued material (burr) and possibly polishing out stress concentrators. I dont see it is as strict requirement if I am happy with the secondary edge. It is icing on the cake if I want to have fun.

I'll go further and contend that most 'micro-bevels' in the kitchen knife world are secondary bevels. If you need a secondary bevel, the steel is too weak for the task (edge is too thin for the strength of the steel). If the application is constraining the geometry, a 'micro' bevel is only incrementally less likely to fail than the fresh grind (depending on the task). To avoid failure, you will likely need to put a 'macro' amount of material behind the edge to add strength. If you sharpen at this angle regularly via requirement, *to me* it seems philosophically incongruous to consider this constraint as a 'micro' consideration.


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## Benuser (Jan 12, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> I dont really understand the distinction you are making between touching-up (easy and fast) and a micro-bevel??


Two cases. One without a microbevel. High angles. A vintage carbon Sab, or one of the cheaper Herder series. Frequent touching-up, piece of Belgian Blue in my hand, I feel the resistance, a few edge leading strokes, a few longitudinal ones for deburring, done. Knive has almost recovered the performance/feeling it provides after a full sharpening.
Second case. Same knife, much lower angle, but a microbevel of 45° on the dominant side, performs even better. Call it a nanobevel if you want. Probably all my normal bevels are close to what some would call a microbevel. But the almost as frequent touching-ups require to exactly hit the microbevel, or there's a dramatic loss of performance, and the touching-up can't be done as easily as in the first case.
So I was looking for the easy maintenance of the first scenario combined with the performance of the second one.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 12, 2022)

Benuser said:


> A vintage carbon Sab



I have to play around with one of these 

The softer carbons are not really something I have good experience with. There are probably tricks I need to learn 




Benuser said:


> Same knife, much lower angle, but a microbevel of 45° on the dominant side





Benuser said:


> But the almost as frequent touching-ups require to exactly hit the microbevel, or there's a dramatic loss of performance, and the touching-up can't be done as easily as in the first case.



45 on one side sounds pretty extreme to me. Again... german steels are not my forte - so maybe it is reasonable. Have you tried 30 degrees? The problem with 45 is that you are teetering on the brink between an acute and obtuse angle. If you raise the angle to 45.1 you are shifting into 'obtuse'. This is _before_ you add the angle on the other side! In some ways this is a very, very gentle way of bread knifing your edge. You would have much more (literal) wiggle room for error at 30 degrees.

Since it is a softer steel... You are potentially working with a hardness where a knife steel would reorient and burnish rolled edges? As others have said, stropping could be similarly useful. Potentially on something loaded with compound if you want to spice it up?

Hey @stringer; can you imagine a ceramic rod being useful for @Benuser??


[Edit: "german steels are not my forte".... Doh!  Sounds bad when we are talking about a French knife. Yes... "soft carbon" is a better term]


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## adam92 (Jan 12, 2022)

I try both, I prefer second m


Benuser said:


> Two cases. One without a microbevel. High angles. A vintage carbon Sab, or one of the cheaper Herder series. Frequent touching-up, piece of Belgian Blue in my hand, I feel the resistance, a few edge leading strokes, a few longitudinal ones for deburring, done. Knive has almost recovered the performance/feeling it provides after a full sharpening.
> Second case. Same knife, much lower angle, but a microbevel of 45° on the dominant side, performs even better. Call it a nanobevel if you want. Probably all my normal bevels are close to what some would call a microbevel. But the almost as frequent touching-ups require to exactly hit the microbevel, or there's a dramatic loss of performance, and the touching-up can't be done as easily as in the first case.
> So I was looking for the easy maintenance of the first scenario combined with the performance of the second one.


I used both method before, I prefer second method.


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## Benuser (Jan 12, 2022)

45 degrees isn't that extreme for a microbevel with soft carbons, if you realise that a common primary edge has an inclusive angle of some 45-50 dergrees. If you bring that back to some 25 degrees inclusive or even lower, the inclusive angle with he microbevel stays under the 60, which gives the robustness you're looking for together with a very thin geometry. By the way, Herder delivers its peelers with a microbevel in the 60 degree range.
A ceramic rod is certainly a serious option. The finest one I have and know is the Sieger LongLife, distributed by Böker. Grit a bit coarser than to the Chosera/NP2k, so in the real JIS2k range. I usually maintain my soft carbons much finer: Blue Brocken or Naniwa Snow-white 8k. Deburring on a rod it is perfectly possible, but a bit tricky. On a stone you may avoid creating a substantial burr. So far I'm not able to do the same with a rod.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 12, 2022)

I've always defined a micro-bevel as just one or two very light passes leaving the bevel barely, if at all, perceptible.

Is that how everyone else is defining it?


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## ian (Jan 12, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I've always defined a micro-bevel as just one or two very light passes leaving the bevel barely, if at all, perceptible.
> 
> Is that how everyone else is defining it?



Idk, I call that “deburring”. To me a microbevel is almost visible. I’m not sure what the defining number of strokes is, though.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 12, 2022)

ian said:


> Idk, I call that “deburring”. To me a microbevel is almost visible. I’m not sure what the defining number of strokes is, though.



Yeah fair enough and good point. I don't de-burr at higher angles on the stone so that didn't occur to me. I've always thought of the micro being applied after de-burring.

I'm coming from the EDC world and this is a pretty common approach. I know there's a fair bit of differences in views, techniques, etc. between the two worlds so that's why I'm curious what how our community defines it.

I reckon if nothing else, no matter how each of us as individuals may define it, in order to help such questions, we'd need to establish how the OP defines it.


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## Benuser (Jan 12, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I've always defined a micro-bevel as just one or two very light passes leaving the bevel barely, if at all, perceptible.
> 
> Is that how everyone else is defining it?


I do. You want to preserve the original geometry. That's the reason for the microbevel.


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## BoSharpens (Jan 12, 2022)

Fascinating read above, but tortuous for me to read it all.

I've dealt with burrs all my life in the machine shop. 40 years ago I got a rotating lapping disk and it spelled the end of burrs when I put tools on the aluminum oxide disk with or without some diamond dust. It works the same way with knives. Knives are much harder to deal with as the curved blade means you have real good finger & eye control to touch your edge ... or you don't. That obviously led to people developing fixtures to control angles.

I tried fixture a bit, but quickly found it took me longer to sharpen a normal knife than by just using my old trained fingers.

My experience on standard chef knives has been when you get to your fine edge with fine abrasive all burrs I can feel are gone.  I check sharpness and it is real good. Then I do the final stropping if I want a real polished final finish and the edge is a bit sharper yet.

The difference in my work is I have to work fairly fast yet get a terrific edge on for a paying customer on his Shun or Wustoff blades. I could never make a profit sharpening elaborate edge profiles on custom Japanese blades.

Still, I think my work is in some way related to the work described before me. Someone described using cardboard. Cardboard is effectively a "Variable" surface that conforms to the steel's microbevel, regardless of a hand held position that is not matching the microbevel. Now if you add 1-4 micron diamond dust to the cardboard, you will get a glass smooth polish on your edge. 

Just my opinion of course and its not so coarse


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## ian (Jan 12, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I read your question more like: how do I find the angle of my microbevel, where you give examples what happens when you do it wrong: to shallow angle = no improvement in cutting, too steep angle and you have a burr that you need to remove again.
> 
> Havent read too many replies that answer this, so I might be reading the original question wrong?
> 
> ...



If you want to have an angle guide for a microbevel, it might be easier to just cut a wedge out of some wood or something. Or if you're going to spend money on 4000 straws, you could just order a premade wedge or set of wedges. Then if you typically use 25 degree microbevels on your knives, you don't need a separate straw for every possible knife height.

Burning question: how do you organize your angle-guide straws?

Edit: Or maybe I'm missing your point. Do you keep the straw contacting the knife as you sharpen, so that it brushes the stone as you go, at least when you're sharpening the relevant part of the blade? If so, isn't it kind of a pain to keep it secure and vertical while you're sharpening?


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## Kawa (Jan 12, 2022)

ian said:


> If want to have an angle guide for a microbevel, it might be easier to just cut a wedge out of some wood or something. Or if you're going to spend money on 4000 straws, you could just order a premade wedge or set of wedges. Then if you typically use 25 degree microbevels on your knives, you don't need a separate straw for every possible knife height.
> 
> Burning question: how do you organize your angle-guide straws?
> 
> Edit: Or maybe I'm missing your point. Do you keep the straw contacting the knife as you sharpen, so that it brushes the stone as you go, at least when you're sharpening the relevant part of the blade? If so, isn't it kind of a pain to keep it secure and vertical while you're sharpening?



I only use them to start. For me a real angle guide feels like cheating. I want to get good at freehand sharpening. This is some kind of in-between solution for me.
It was born out of frustration. I understand the sharpie trick, but I never think it can work like the way people advise: there is a contradiction in my opinion.

So you color your edge. This is needed because appearently you cant find the edge with your own senses. No problem. But then you start sharpening. You have to check once in a while (every few strokes?) if you really hit the edge (remove the sharpie at the right spot). Even if you hit the edge, you have removed the knife from the stone, to put it back after checking. So how do you know you put it back at the same angle as before? You cant tell with muscle memory, otherwise you wouldnt need sharpie to start with, right?
Anyway, there were too many times I was absolutely sure I was at the right angle, only to check and conclude I was completely wrong 

So every time I switch side of the knife, I start with the straw. Edge away from me, the index finger is on the bend-line (how do you call this?) of the straw, edge towards me, the thumb is. It also comes in handy when you deburr with edge leading heel-to-tip motion and when you strop and there is even less feedback for a beginner.
Yes, I am a slow sharpener because of this, but it works.

Sharpening is my hobby, so it doesnt have to be practical of fast for me. I cook food, only to use my knives so I can sharpen them again 




So, the knives I sharpen on a regular base (my own, good friends and family) I keep those straws. For knives I dont think I will sharpen anytime soon again, I throw them away when I'm done.

4000 straws is like 20 euros, 3000 straws is like 17 euros, 2000 straws was like 13 euros. The sending costs were the most.


When I buy premade wedges, I do adjust the knives angle to the edge that fits best, right?
Now I just find the angle the knive comes with, and I 'record' that angle with a straw. For me that sounds a little bit more logical. I start sharpening and raise the angle. When I reach the right angle, I hold the knive steady, take the straw with the other hand and make a mark where my nail hits the back of the knife. Then I bend the straw and Im done.


How do I organize them? Like an autist


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## ian (Jan 12, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I only use them to start. For me a real angle guide feels like cheating. I want to get good at freehand sharpening. This is some kind of in-between solution for me.
> It was born out of frustration. I understand the sharpie trick, but I never think it can work like the way people advise: there is a contradiction in my opinion.
> 
> So you color your edge. This is needed because appearently you cant find the edge with your own senses. No problem. But then you start sharpening. You have to check once in a while (every few strokes?) if you really hit the edge (remove the sharpie at the right spot). Even if you hit the edge, you have removed the knife from the stone, to put it back after checking. So how do you know you put it back at the same angle as before? You cant tell with muscle memory, otherwise you wouldnt need sharpie to start with, right?
> ...



Yea, I don’t find Sharpies very useful for sharpening, except in very particular circumstances, but they’re useful when you’re starting out. With a bevel, though, if it’s big enough that you could conceivably use a sharpie test on it, it’s probably big enough that you can feel it a bit while sharpening, and try to ride along it. The sharpie can help you develop that feel, I suppose.

I’d also say that there’s nothing magical about the out of the box bevel angle. With fancy J knives, it’s often completely an afterthought.

You do you! I like your straw box.


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## Benuser (Jan 13, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> I dont really understand the distinction you are making between touching-up (easy and fast) and a micro-bevel?? If touching up on the Belgian Blue is working for you.... it sounds like you are doing the right things??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The single-sided microbevel I'm speaking about is from the deburring on the finest stone at 45°. The primary bevels are around 10° per side. Which gives an inclusive angle only slightly higher than the one I would apply with this kind of soft carbon without said microbevel, but with a far thinner geometry. By the way, you seem to be using primary and secondary different than usual on this forum.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 13, 2022)

Benuser said:


> By the way, you seem to be using primary and secondary different than usual on this forum.



Maybe! 

As I understand it, there are two camps...each using the opposite definition of primary and secondary!! That's why I included the diagram. My definitions might be unfamiliar... but they should be consistent with the included diagrams. That said... I do tend to get confused


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## ian (Jan 13, 2022)

Primary and secondary are dumb words and should be eliminated from the discussion in favor of “edge bevel” and “relief bevel”, or maybe “thinning bevel” instead of relief bevel. Maybe there’s better terminology. 

In my field there are very important objects called “Kleinian groups of the first (or second) kind” and I can never remember which is which. Terrible terminology.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 13, 2022)

ian said:


> In my field there are very important objects called “Kleinian groups of the first (or second) kind” and I can never remember which is which. Terrible terminology.



Man I hate those... They never let me into the VIO sections at clubs. I am always wearing the wrong shoes... or maybe I just give off the wrong hyperbolic space vibe . Looking over those velvety ropes into the VIO section... it just looks so glamorous and cool... you know? All those geodesics having a unit ball with their conformal maps


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## stringer (Jan 16, 2022)

The microbevel for me on a gyuto is quite a bit more substantial than a couple swipes on each side with a fine stone. I'm probably far more aggressive in board contact, but a few swipes on each side isn't durable enough for me. I do a "full progression" for my microbevel. Although that's usually only two stones. Usually a medium grit natural and a medium-fine natural (my favorite is washita to aizu). I apply it to both sides. Probably 45-60 degrees inclusive. It's definitely visible. And this is also what I "touch up" in the field. It can be touched up many many times in my experience before needing thinned. Even with a stout microbevel I usually end up needing to thin because I've chipped the knife and need to make repairs long before I've made the micro bevel wide enough to begin impacting performance.


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## Benuser (Jan 16, 2022)

It clarifies a lot. So we use the word microbevel for very different things. Thanks, @stringer


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 16, 2022)

stringer said:


> The microbevel for me on a gyuto is quite a bit more substantial than a couple swipes on each side with a fine stone. I'm probably far more aggressive in board contact, but a few swipes on each side isn't durable enough for me. I do a "full progression" for my microbevel. Although that's usually only two stones. Usually a medium grit natural and a medium-fine natural (my favorite is washita to aizu). I apply it to both sides. Probably 45-60 degrees inclusive. It's definitely visible. And this is also what I "touch up" in the field. It can be touched up many many times in my experience before needing thinned. Even with a stout microbevel I usually end up needing to thin because I've chipped the knife and need to make repairs long before I've made the micro bevel wide enough to begin impacting performance.
> 
> View attachment 160923



It's a little hard for me to tell, but it looks like you almost have that zero ground and then what you're calling the micro-bevel. If so, that to me would just be the edge bevel. Very small, but the edge bevel all the same.

If there is an actual edge bevel that I'm not seeing then what I believe is being presented as your micro-bevel would to me be a tertiary bevel.

In either case, like @Benuser, that wouldn't be what I envision when talking about micro-bevels. Another good reason to make sure we're all on the same page when these topics come up.


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## Benuser (Jan 17, 2022)

Well, I now understand why I had a problem in maintaining my microbevel — one or two strokes on the finest stone — while others did not experience the same. @stringer 's microbevel is very close in size to my primary bevel, and indeed, maintaining that one is quite simple.


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