# Ban on 210 gyutos



## NO ChoP! (Jun 30, 2020)

Don't mean to hurt feelings in todays sensitive climate, but can we put 210mm gyutos in with santokus as not cool? 

Nothing irks me more than seeing the perfect knife listed on the BSTs and you click on it only to see it's a 210!

It's like an ecoboost in a Mustang. Sure you can make an argument of how awesome it is. But it will never be a 5.0. 

Now a 270mm is like a Powerstroke diesel in a 2-ton that you drive the kids around in.


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## BillHanna (Jun 30, 2020)

Hot hatchbacks are cool, dammit.


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## Nemo (Jun 30, 2020)

I actually just bought my first 210 and santoku since I began.

Trying to get my daughter into good knives and 240 is just a bit unwieldy for her.


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## esoo (Jun 30, 2020)

As a home chef, I buy for what I need. 98% of the time, a Sakai 210 works perfect. 1% of the time I need the 270 suji. the other 1% is a crap shoot on length and type of knife.


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## ModRQC (Jun 30, 2020)

Board and kitchen space apply although 30mm isn’t a problem with space I think a 240mm is a bit too much for any board that doesn’t have about 12 inches over.

And I love Santokus.

My feelings ain’t hurt though - I can understand deception when looking at BST. Mine is that every knife I like is often a 240mm and breaks the deal. 

As long as it cuts stuff awesomely for you I don’t regard length as a « problem » with any knife - a choice has to be made according to use and preferences.


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## madelinez (Jun 30, 2020)

I prefer 230-240mm but plenty of people have smaller kitchens than me so I totally understand 180-210mm knives.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 30, 2020)

Don't mean to hurt feelings in todays sensitive climate, but can we put unicorns for sale at a cheap price and PM me first?


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## Matus (Jun 30, 2020)

My 210 Munetoshi Honyaki is currently my most used knife. I consider your primary question answered


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## Nedfeister (Jun 30, 2020)

No


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## NO ChoP! (Jun 30, 2020)

^^ millennial ^^


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 30, 2020)

Lol


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## BillHanna (Jun 30, 2020)

Boomers gonna Boom


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## labor of love (Jun 30, 2020)

GenXers could save the world. If only the tik tok youth could heed their wisdom.


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## soigne_west (Jun 30, 2020)

Wives need knives too


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## daveb (Jun 30, 2020)

I don't think I've offended anyone today - yet.

That said I could get behind seperating bst into "girlie" knives and "manly" knives.


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## parbaked (Jun 30, 2020)

I like my knives like my woman...short and sharp!


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## kbright (Jun 30, 2020)

210mm seems to be very common size. If most people wanted a 240, there would be less 210s.


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

daveb said:


> I don't think I've offended anyone today - yet.
> 
> That said I could get behind seperating bst into "girlie" knives and "manly" knives.


Still waiting on the "get rid of 2 rules to implement 1 new rule" policy.


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## Barclid (Jun 30, 2020)

>Implies not liking Santoku or 210 Gyuto will rustle jimmies

>"Nothing irks me more"

Seems like typical boomer projection.


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## Alonzo (Jun 30, 2020)

If I could chime in here, I personally divide knives into:
Small - 180 and under
Medium - 210-240
Large - 270 and up

Thats a ballpark for sizes 'cause those are the common sizes knives come in and there are inbetweeners obviously. So 210 and 240 in my eyes are prety much the same in many ways. Lets say you got yourself a 240 Sakai gyuto and I have a 210 Sanjo gyuto they can be just about the same size on the edge. If you factor in weight and heel height
some Sanjo 210 can feel and perform bigger then some Sakai 240.

I prefer a 210 in my personal pro environment. Just my 2 cents on it.


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## VincentBeek (Jun 30, 2020)

No, the rule is Gyoto is cool, Santoku is not.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 30, 2020)

#210livesmatter


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## esoo (Jun 30, 2020)

VincentBeek said:


> No, the rule is Gyoto is cool, Santoku is not.



every low tipped gyuto just looks like a stretched santoku to me.


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## esoo (Jun 30, 2020)

esoo said:


> every low tipped gyuto just looks like a stretched santoku to me.



Case in point: 240 vs Santoku (pics stolen from Knifewear)


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## Runner_up (Jun 30, 2020)

Knives are like women: I am attracted to all shapes, colors, and sizes.


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## bahamaroot (Jun 30, 2020)

My 210's help me better understand my inner woman.


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## vl2k1 (Jun 30, 2020)

As one of the newbies around here, this has gone to the deep end faster than I expected.....


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## Runner_up (Jun 30, 2020)

^^ Welcome to the forums, this is nothing


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## WildBoar (Jun 30, 2020)

The 210s know they are a bit less popular than the 225-240s. So they often will work longer and harder to make sure the desired tasks are completed. And often they will be more agreeable to tasks the 225-240s don't want to do.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 30, 2020)

For anyone that doesn't understand internet humor, while the OP was kinda truthful he was being funny too.


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## SHOWERDOOKIE (Jun 30, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> My 210's help me better understand my inner woman.



I always like to imagine two midgets in a trench coat when someone refers to their ‘inner woman’.

Anyways I felt this way until recently I was gifted a Miyabi santoku and it’s been my new beater at work for the line, I put an edge on it ootb and I don’t even blink when someone picks it up to use it. I think the stigma in my head around “****ing santokus” prevented me from using one but it’s not like it doesn’t get the job done.. I still feel like ‘master chef jr’ when I use it though.


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## Nedfeister (Jun 30, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> ^^ millennial ^^


I wish I was that young!


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## BillHanna (Jun 30, 2020)

*180 gyutos silently sitting in the corner, hoping to not get noticed*


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## esoo (Jun 30, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> *180 gyutos silently sitting in the corner, hoping to not get noticed*



*180 gyutos silently sitting in the corner, looking at the santoku's, thinking it's all their damn fault*


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## LostHighway (Jun 30, 2020)

I certainly understand the appeal of longer knives for the pros with real speed and volume considerations but for the average home user not so much. I figure if the absence of an extra few centimeters in length is really a problem for you you can always stick a couple rolled up socks in your pants.


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## TSF415 (Jun 30, 2020)

Im sorry to rain on everyones parade but an extra inch doesn't make you a man.


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## jacko9 (Jun 30, 2020)

Haven't made up my mind on the ideal size yet. I have a Mazaki 180 gyuto, a Fujiyama 210, and a Watanabe 210 all useful but recently after I gave my 240 HD2 to my son I picked up a 240 Toyama, a 240 Fujiyama (closer to 230), a 240 T-F Nashiji and a 240 Shigefusa and if I only cooked more often I could get a decent sample size for comparisons.


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## aszma (Jun 30, 2020)

I recently grabbed a 180mm wat gyuto thats been heavily thinned and given an S-grind from BST i grab that thing as often as my 240.


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## daveb (Jun 30, 2020)

But a 180 gyuto is really a big petty and quite the manly knife. The 210 gyuto is small.


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## aszma (Jun 30, 2020)

daveb said:


> But a 180 gyuto is really a big petty and quite the manly knife. The 210 gyuto is small.


But then can we call a 210 an extra big petty and make it extra manly?


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## Boynutman (Jun 30, 2020)

Runner_up said:


> Knives are like women: I am attracted to all shapes, colors, and sizes.



...and preferably no virtues. 
(so why should you want a santoku with ‘three virtues’ when one is already too many?)


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## BillHanna (Jun 30, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> I have a Mazaki 180 gyuto


From when? Does it have a sizeable flat spot?


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## daddy yo yo (Jun 30, 2020)

Alonzo said:


> I personally divide knives into:
> Small - 180 and under
> Medium - 210-240
> Large - 270 and up


And here we have the no man‘s lands of knives, 181-219 and 241-269, being neither small nor medium not large...


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## BillHanna (Jun 30, 2020)

edit


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## BillHanna (Jun 30, 2020)

Alonzo said:


> If I could chime in here, I personally divide knives into:
> Small - 180 and under
> Medium - 210-240
> Large - 270 and up
> ...





daddy yo yo said:


> And here we have the no man‘s lands of knives, 181-219 and 241-269, being neither small nor medium not large...



S 0-195
M 195-265
L 265 and beyond?


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## NO ChoP! (Jun 30, 2020)

I will go so far to say that most 210's were purchased to save that extra 20% cost over a 240...aaaand regretted and sold on BST's or unsuspecting coworkers.


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## BillHanna (Jun 30, 2020)

This thread makes me wish Kei cars were legal in PA.


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## WildBoar (Jun 30, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> From when? Does it have a sizeable flat spot?


The "F-spot"?


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## BillHanna (Jun 30, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> The "F-spot"?


I’ll stroke it alllllll niiiiiiight looooong


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## Barmoley (Jun 30, 2020)

The problem with 210s is not the length but the profile.


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> The problem with 210s is not the length but the profile.


Girth.


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## ExistentialHero (Jun 30, 2020)

aszma said:


> I recently grabbed a 180mm wat gyuto thats been heavily thinned and given an S-grind from BST i grab that thing as often as my 240.


That's a super cool knife, glad it's getting good use!


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## labor of love (Jun 30, 2020)

It’s not the size but how you use it.


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## labor of love (Jun 30, 2020)

Just kidding it’s the size


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## tgfencer (Jun 30, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> The problem with 210s is not the length but the profile.



To be semi-serious, I guess the way I see it is, what would I be cutting that I would choose a 210 gyuto over another knife? (Bearing in mind I'm tall and a vocal proponent of the 'a big knife can do it all' philosophy)

Raw, boneless proteins- Either a long slicer or thin petty
Cooked proteins- 210 could be useful, but depending on the size of meat, I would probably again choose suji or petty.
Soft Produce- If it's small enough to be tackled by a 210, I'm more likely to choose a dedicated veg knife like a nakiri/cleaver
Big/Hard produce- Cleaver/longer gyuto/or geometry-specific if its something like a squash 

For me I guess I see the 210 as needing to be something of a hybrid between a gyuto, a shorter suji, and a petty, and in almost all cases I'd rather have one of those specific knives than the 210. Then again, it's all preference anyway, so what does it really matter?


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## Nagakin (Jun 30, 2020)

210 profile doesn't feel as fluid or ergonomic for the reasons above. I always feel like I'm compensating.

...damn you guys


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## Barmoley (Jun 30, 2020)

It also depends on the grip, if you use a deep pinch grip where your middle finger is against the choil then you are shortening your blade and mostly use tip and middle of the edge. This is where most knives start to curve toward the tip unless the tip is low, santoku, k-tip. So in the case of normal 210 gyuto you end up with practically no flat spot. Fine for some people, but depending on how you cut awkward for others. Any knife can be used for anything you can make a whole meal with a paring knife if you had to, the question is why? Unless you are very much space limited 2-3 cm can make a positive difference. Most when we polled a few times agreed that 225-235 are the sweet spot, with pros mostly liking longer.


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## captaincaed (Jun 30, 2020)

aszma said:


> But then can we call a 210 an extra big petty and make it extra manly?


So how was Ian's grinding work? Post on the 'ol carrot thread maybe?


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## NO ChoP! (Jun 30, 2020)

I feel like you lose that fine tip manipulation with the lesser length. You can make up some of the differences with adding height to the blade, but that makes the above mentioned even less tactile.


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## Nagakin (Jun 30, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> I feel like you lose that fine tip manipulation with the lesser length. You can make up some of the differences with adding height to the blade, but that makes the above mentioned even less tactile.


While we're on it I never understood the preference for height either


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## NO ChoP! (Jun 30, 2020)

Hopefully everyone understands this is mostly hyperbole. I don't want to take away from anyone selling any 210's. Speaking of which, there is a mint, bad-azz Koishi up on the BST's presently.


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## aszma (Jun 30, 2020)

ExistentialHero said:


> That's a super cool knife, glad it's getting good use!


That thing is such a nimble and nice cutter i almost feel like i robbed the guy only paying 215 for it


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## tgfencer (Jun 30, 2020)

Nagakin said:


> While we're on it I never understood the preference for height either



Ergonomically it can be quite important for tall people, depending on the height of the work station/cutting board. Nothing worse for the back than a low cutting board and a short knife.

That addendum aside, I go both ways with height, depends more on the maker and how I intend to use it.


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## parbaked (Jun 30, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> The problem with 210s is not the length but the profile.


I dig the profile on my 210 Kaeru but I still use my 180mm - 195mm knives most...


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## ian (Jun 30, 2020)

Face it. You all are just elitist. 210 is the default starter size (or rather, 8”) so you all want to pretend you’re cool and hate on it.


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## ian (Jun 30, 2020)

Oh, and yea, **** 210 gyutos. They’re the worst.


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## WildBoar (Jun 30, 2020)

Hey!

HEY!

No pinching!


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## tomsch (Jun 30, 2020)

My workhorse is a 240mm but I did break down a few months ago and bought a 210mm laser for delicate work. Feels a little bit like a toy but I'm starting to appreciate the ability to do very controlled tip work.


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2020)

A lot of inferiority complexes around


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## Chuckles (Jun 30, 2020)

but 210 petties are still cool right?

180 is a far superior length for a gyuto. If you are going to go small go all the way.


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## Nagakin (Jun 30, 2020)

tgfencer said:


> Ergonomically it can be quite important for tall people, depending on the height of the work station/cutting board. Nothing worse for the back than a low cutting board and a short knife.
> 
> That addendum aside, I go both ways with height, depends more on the maker and how I intend to use it.


I can see it with the workstation height, I just prefer 45-50mm myself. Fortunately our place has been tougher on the shorties. 

Those tall Catchesides that were up piqued my curiosity though.


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## zeaderan (Jun 30, 2020)

210 in a professional environment may be inefficient but 240+ in a small kitchen as a home cook leads to injuries, at least for me. That being said my main cutting board is a baby boardsmith... That being said 180 is all I reach for currently. If I had a reg sized prep space, 210 would prob be my sweet spot then


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## panda (Jun 30, 2020)

i detest 210 gyuto, its such an awkward size. rather use a slightly shorter santoku or a slightly longer gyuto (220, 225)


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## panda (Jun 30, 2020)

ian said:


> Oh, and yea, **** 210 gyutos. They’re the worst.


i sniggered at this


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## Colin (Jun 30, 2020)

Length doesn't matter, or so I tell myself... But don't we always want a longer blade?


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## ccasanova (Jul 1, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Speaking of which, there is a mint, bad-azz Koishi up on the BST's presently.



*was 

I won’t know the difference as it’s my first J knife. And if it does feel short, that’ll be a good excuse to add to the collection. Man, this could be the beginning of another expensive hobby


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## lemeneid (Jul 1, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Don't mean to hurt feelings in todays sensitive climate, but can we put 210mm gyutos in with santokus as not cool?
> 
> Nothing irks me more than seeing the perfect knife listed on the BSTs and you click on it only to see it's a 210!
> 
> ...


Pretty certain my 3L M4 in eco mode will smoke your 5.0 Mustang in every category easy.


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## panda (Jul 1, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Pretty certain my 3L M4 in eco mode will smoke your 5.0 Mustang in every category easy.


not in american pride points.


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## TSF415 (Jul 1, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Pretty certain my 3L M4 in eco mode will smoke your 5.0 Mustang in every category easy.



How many car alarms can you set off though?


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## Helmore (Jul 1, 2020)

panda said:


> not in american pride points.


For that he'd need to paint his car like this: ?


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## soigne_west (Jul 1, 2020)

I’d say a different flag is more representative of America these days


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## M1k3 (Jul 1, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> I’d say a different flag but we won’t go there in the current climate


Antarctica?


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## soigne_west (Jul 1, 2020)

Deleted


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## Alonzo (Jul 1, 2020)

daddy yo yo said:


> And here we have the no man‘s lands of knives, 181-219 and 241-269, being neither small nor medium not large...



Not sure if this is a humorous comment or a serious one TBH. Im reading this forum for over 7 years and all the knives I bought were from knowledge of members here (cheers for that guys) but as you can see from my comment count I dont comment that much basically because I've seen more knowledgeable comments than I could make so didnt see the point. So forgive me if I dont understand you properly.

I talk in a ballpark measurments, thats all. There are inbetweener and as I commented some 210 are actualy 220 and some 240 are actualy 230. The L-M-S is general speaking. I had a Kono Ginsan that is a 210 gyuto but was actualy 200 on the edge (with a 42mm heel height), so is it in no mans land? It was, and it is in my view, in the bracket of 210 gyutos. No no-man's-land here, just a general perspective.


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## Boondocker (Jul 1, 2020)

My house was built in 1931. Counters are not bug enough for a 240+. So i use my 210


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## Dendrobatez (Jul 1, 2020)

I use almost exclusively 210mm knives for work due to space constraints and I also own an ecoboost mustang. There's a reason both exist and are popular and its not not just to annoy you.


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## lemeneid (Jul 1, 2020)

panda said:


> not in american pride points.


Not into American muscle, its German engineered for me 


TSF415 said:


> How many car alarms can you set off though?


Not too many but it will be annoying as hell still.


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## ma_sha1 (Jul 1, 2020)

Agree with OP, Don't mean to hurt feelings in todays sensitive climate, but 210s are useless!

You all should dump the 210s on BST before a it’s too late!


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## Dendrobatez (Jul 1, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Not into American muscle, its German engineered for me



I enjoy both but especially BMWs and Mustangs, which is why I have one of each lol


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## Customfan (Jul 1, 2020)

Noooo.... 210 can be cool under certain circumstances ,-)

been a 240 advocate for years but.. i have a 210 that I use for a lot of tasks...

pointy coexistence says I.


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## Garm (Jul 1, 2020)

When evaluating the amount of usefulness, joy and satisfaction a tool can give you, metres per second is way more important than centimetres.


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## WildBoar (Jul 1, 2020)

For me acceleration is more important than velocity when it comes to evaluating the amount of usefulness, joy and satisfaction.


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## jacko9 (Jul 1, 2020)

My 210 Gyuto's are pretty fine all three of them; Watanabe, Fujiyama B#2 and Kato WH but I would really prefer to have a Mustang Shelby GT500


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## coffeelover191919 (Jul 1, 2020)

except a 210 vs a 240/270 isn't like a base mustang vs 5.0. very bad comparison. You buy the size for what you need. 

A better comparison would be a 210 as a BMW 5 series, a 240 would be an X5. Similar car, different in size. Buy for what you need.


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## Garm (Jul 1, 2020)

My most frequently used knife by a large margin is a 210. For me it's a great size, provided that the maker has a good design.
Getting a good edge profile for the length while having enough height at the back, for my personal preferences, seems rarer with 210's than larger sizes. 240's are, however, often too much knife for my typical kitchen use.


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## Steampunk (Jul 1, 2020)

Some of the comments in this thread make me despair, but here goes...

I actually agree with the OP... 210 gyutos are a 'tweener' size that is really popular, but has always felt really compromised to me... It's not the do-anything workhorse that a 230-250mm blade is, and it's not as maneuverable as a 165-180mm santoku/gyuto. It's a compromise between those, and you feel that compromise when you cook. A 210 can slice better than a 180, but never as well as a 240. A 210 is more usable on small boards than a 240, but never as much as a 180. It's the length I'd recommend to someone who didn't know what side of the fence they sit on yet. It's a bit of everything, and a lot of nothing.

That said, everyone has their perfect size... 210's might feel as maneuverable in someone else's hand as 180's do in mine... So much of knife selection is based around your body type and technique. Nothing's wrong, unless it doesn't suit you... 

- Steampunk


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## YumYumSauce (Jul 1, 2020)

Not big on 210 mm gyutos either. I'd rather have a 180mm gyuto for the extra nimbleness and for smaller tasks. 240mm is the perfect size for general use for me.


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## WildBoar (Jul 1, 2020)

We have a traditionally-shaped 210 and never use it; it's either a 225 gyuto or a 150/ 180 petty. But we also have a Harner line knife that is a 210, my wife uses it regularly. It's just a lot different than a regular gyuto and it does not feel odd.


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## Dendrobatez (Jul 1, 2020)

240mm knives are for prep, 210mm knives are for the line - i almost never have a cutting board on the line big enough for a 240mm. 90-180mm knives are useless to me.


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## panda (Jul 1, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Not into American muscle, its German engineered for me
> 
> Not too many but it will be annoying as hell still.


an early 2000s e60 m5 with straight pipes flew past me on the highway few days ago, that thing was meannnnn. I like porsche for German cars tho..


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## Dendrobatez (Jul 2, 2020)

panda said:


> an early 2000s e60 m5 with straight pipes flew past me on the highway few days ago, that thing was meannnnn. I like porsche for German cars tho..



Thats the coolest bmw you dont want to own, those S85s will cost you an arm and a leg when the rod knock starts. The N54/55 is a safer choice and an easy 550hp


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## willic (Jul 2, 2020)

210's at lesser of a resale price make it affordable for me to try some of the insanely priced grails... I do use something less than 240 when working the line with limited work area. I'd be faster with a 240-270, but I often don't have lots of available space to work when all hell breaks loose.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 2, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> I certainly understand the appeal of longer knives for the pros with real speed and volume considerations but for the average home user not so much. I figure if the absence of an extra few centimeters in length is really a problem for you you can always stick a couple rolled up socks in your pants.


240mm you don't need rolled up socksin your pants.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 2, 2020)

Doesn't matter how much HP you have, if your driving a automatic your a *****.

Being defensive in the USA new cars manual is heading for extinction. It's all about market share.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 2, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> The "F-spot"?



One more letter & you can make her smile.


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## panda (Jul 2, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> One more letter & you can make her smile.


that's definitely what sea said and the girl


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## McMan (Jul 3, 2020)

TSF415 said:


> an extra inch doesn't make you a man.





Chuckles said:


> If you are going to go small go all the way.



Said @panda?


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## McMan (Jul 3, 2020)

...


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## M1k3 (Jul 3, 2020)

McMan said:


> ...


That's what sea said.


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## QCDawg (Jul 3, 2020)

I get around a lot of restaurants. I’m a Commercial Real Estate Broker who specializes in hospitality. Amongst the people that do this for a living... that happen to like nice knives (and that crowd is surprisingly small, believe it or not) ...just about every “Chef” I know ...likes an 8.5 / 210mm. Some even smaller. Damn near every good line cook I know ..wants that extra inch (9.5/ 240) for prep. The 270 people are just.... in their own world (and I don’t see much of that in commercial kitchens). My collection is 50/50 (I am neither of the above, but an avid cook). Some knives just beg to be 210’s ... some seem better at 240. I realize collectors favor 240 > 210.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 3, 2020)

240mm or 10 inch Victorinox most used in production kitchens. 240 is sweet spot size for doing lots of prep.

It's not just a forum myth, 210 & smaller are used as line knives because narrow boards. Cutting is final prep before food goes under heat lamp. 

Most Culinary school knife kits have 8 inch chef knives. All the knives I recomm. to students are 240 tell them larger knife in pro kitchen is a must. 

At home have a couple 180 tall heel knives. Kochi and TF Nashiji. Doing lots of banquet prep at work many years forward push & chopping most used cuts. Can do that as a home blade with TH 180mm. 

For peeling watermelon, cantaloupes , pineapples use short heel gyuto narrow blade works better for peeling.

Was mentioned in this thread that ordering 210 blades of nice knives saves money. I have done that because don't need but one 240 at home. Gengetsu, Watanabe, TF hammer finish, If you think any of these suffer because they are 210 better improve your knife skills.

Places like JCK sell mostly 210 because aimed at home market.


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