# Ferrule to handle attachment



## richinva (Sep 23, 2013)

Does anyone do this on the lathe, spec., hollow the back of the ferrule to mate with a tenon on the handle? Most of the tutorials I see use a butt joint, sometimes with pins.

Thanks.


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## mhenry (Sep 23, 2013)

I think the butt/pin joint is used mostly by people who do not have a lathe, and is a very workable alternative. If I had a lathe I would use the tenon method always, should make for a stronger handle.


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## richinva (Sep 23, 2013)

I think I'll try a "prototype" before I commit to the stabilized sycamore and horn...............

Thanks.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 23, 2013)

I use a wooden dowel through the center instead of pins or a tenon. I split the dowel most of the way prior to installing it, which gives me a slot for the tang. 

However, as mhenry said...I think the tenon is stronger overall. A tenon and dowel would be indestructible!


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## CPD (Sep 23, 2013)

I run a hardwood dowel through the center of my handles too. That approach lets me have more control over the weight of the finished handle (maple or birch dowels are usually quite a bit lighter weight than exotic woods like rosewood/ebony etc) and it gives me a good strong glue joint. 

A mortise and tenon cut on a lathe might be a little bit stronger if you have the tools to do it but I doubt that strength difference would matter. 

Overkill info: from articles I've read, a mortise and tenon can be up to about 30% stronger than a dowel joint but that's usually when dealing with cross grain joints which are inherently weaker eg. the pieces are perpendicular to each other at the joint - as would be more common in furniture making. In our handles, where grain is aligned and you have endgrain sucking in glue at the joint, the difference is going to be less. Odds are though you'd never get anywhere near the force needed to break the glue joint once it's cured with either approach. 

I'd use whichever approach you are most comfortable with. The key is use a good epoxy.


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## hobbitling (Sep 23, 2013)

if you use a dowel, how do you insert the blade? Cris mentioned that he splits the dowel. Do you remove material from the inner faces of the split dowel, so that the tang fits between the two halves or does the kerf of the saw blade create a wide enough gap? 

Or do you just glue up the handle and drill a tang hole (or tang slot, using files to connect several smaller holes?)?

Also, do you glue the blade in when you do the initial glue up for the handle blank? I often see pictures of handles which are made as separate units ready for a blade, presumably with a slot ready to accept a tang. Is that a different building technique?


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 23, 2013)

I split it for the majority of the length, then clean it up a bit on the inside...leaving roughly 1-1.5mm in between. At the end closest to the ferrule I'll widen that slot to ensure that the blade starts correctly. I burn my tangs in though, so the split/gap is basically just to make sure that the blade goes in straight.

I don't glue my blades in on glue up. I used to only use beeswax to set my blades at all...but now I use epoxy so I know I have a good seal on the tang/ferrule junction.


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## richinva (Sep 23, 2013)

So what do I see when I look at the (in this scenario) horn ferrule/tang juncture? Just horn? Or are you letting the dowel come all the way through the ferrule?


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 23, 2013)

richinva said:


> So what do I see when I look at the (in this scenario) horn ferrule/tang juncture? Just horn? Or are you letting the dowel come all the way through the ferrule?



I hide my dowel by stopping it about 1/4" from the end of the ferrule...so all you see is a tang slot. But some people let it come all the way out flush. Some use matching wood (if they can), and others don't seem to care. A lot of the guys that do the mortice/tenon thing do the same thing. They bring it all the way through the ferrule.

Basically I predrill a hole centered in the ferrule, roughly the thickness of my tang or slightly larger. Then I flip the ferrule over, and drill a 1/2" hole till there's about 1/4" to the place where the machi will meet the ferrule. When I assemble it there is no evidence of the dowel at all.


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## CPD (Sep 24, 2013)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> I hide my dowel by stopping it about 1/4" from the end of the ferrule...so all you see is a tang slot.
> 
> . ....
> 
> When I assemble it there is no evidence of the dowel at all.



I do something very similar. I run my dowel to inside but not all the way through the ferrule. I then work from a predrilled center hole in the ferrule to create an opening for the tang.

In my case, on larger handles I also use a 5/8 dowel. With a larger dowel, I can get a better burn in result than if I were trying to burn in to harder/denser exotic woods which may not respond as well to heat.

When it comes to installation, I always prefer to do a burn in and try and avoid gluing the knife and handle together. Not always possible but what I aim for.

Somewhere around the forum here Maxim from JNS posted a two part video showing his burn-in method. It's probably linked on his website as well.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 24, 2013)

CPD said:


> I do something very similar. I run my dowel to inside but not all the way through the ferrule. I then work from a predrilled center hole in the ferrule to create an opening for the tang.
> 
> In my case, on larger handles I also use a 5/8 dowel. With a larger dowel, I can get a better burn in result than if I were trying to burn in to harder/denser exotic woods which may not respond as well to heat.



So far I've only mounted my own knives...and all of my tangs are a standard 1/2" in width, and around 2-3mm in thickness. For that reason I don't really need a 5/8" dowel...though to be honest I may go that way to ease overall positioning of the knife in the slot.


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## richinva (Sep 24, 2013)

so..................the lighter wood that I'm seeing at the machi is probably a dowel? That makes sense. I'll try to post some pics during the lathe process and see how it goes.

Thanks, great thread for us dummies.................


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 24, 2013)

richinva said:


> so..................the lighter wood that I'm seeing at the machi is probably a dowel? That makes sense. I'll try to post some pics during the lathe process and see how it goes.
> 
> Thanks, great thread for us dummies.................



Not on my, CPD, or Stefan's handles its not. On some others you'll see a dowel (or the wood of the handle if they use a tenon).


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## vinster (Sep 24, 2013)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> So far I've only mounted my own knives...and all of my tangs are a standard 1/2" in width, and around 2-3mm in thickness. For that reason I don't really need a 5/8" dowel...though to be honest I may go that way to ease overall positioning of the knife in the slot.



This thread got me interested and I was looking at some of my handles yesterday. On a wa-handle, the width of many of my handles is around 3/4" at the ferrule end, so if I used a 5/8" dowel in there, the ferrule wood might be very thin in spots of I didn't center the hole perfectly. I'm afraid of taking away too much material somewhere and exposing the ferrule!


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 24, 2013)

vinster said:


> This thread got me interested and I was looking at some of my handles yesterday. On a wa-handle, the width of many of my handles is around 3/4" at the ferrule end, so if I used a 5/8" dowel in there, the ferrule wood might be very thin in spots of I didn't center the hole perfectly. I'm afraid of taking away too much material somewhere and exposing the ferrule!



I was just looking at that! My handles are all pretty much 3/4" square (give or take 1-2mm) at the ferrule. 5/8" would definitely be cutting it close. I mean...I could do it, but for overall strength on my handles I'm not sure it would be the best idea. CPD's handles may be a bit larger than that as he did mention 'on larger handles'.


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## mhenry (Sep 24, 2013)

I use a ~1" long dowel that penetrates approx. a 1/2" into the handle and ferrule. The rest of the handle is hollow to allow an easy fit with the tang. I doubt there is much to be gained by using a full length dowel if the cavity in the handle is filled completely with epoxy


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## richinva (Sep 24, 2013)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Not on my, CPD, or Stefan's handles its not. On some others you'll see a dowel (or the wood of the handle if they use a tenon).



So I would just see the horn.....................?

Thanks


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## CPD (Sep 24, 2013)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> I was just looking at that! My handles are all pretty much 3/4" square (give or take 1-2mm) at the ferrule. 5/8" would definitely be cutting it close. I mean...I could do it, but for overall strength on my handles I'm not sure it would be the best idea. CPD's handles may be a bit larger than that as he did mention 'on larger handles'.



When I use 5/8 it is on larger handles (240 gyuto for example). I also do it when working with a D shape that taper slightly toward the butt - which I didn't think to mention. With the D, there is more material to work with without getting "too close" but it is important to be perfectly centered. 

On a smaller handle or Octagon, I'd probably go with 1/2 inch. 

I basically go with as big a dowel as I can so long as I'm comfortable with the strength/remaining material (It's easier burn in to the dowel than trying to burn into exotic hardwoods)


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 24, 2013)

richinva said:


> So I would just see the horn.....................?
> 
> Thanks



Yes...and any small gap remaining would be sealed.


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## richinva (Sep 24, 2013)

Gotcha. 

I'm thinking of just boring it out about 3/4", leave the rest. That should be adequate glue surface for the epoxy. 

Great, I'll take a run at this when I get home.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 24, 2013)

richinva said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> I'm thinking of just boring it out about 3/4", leave the rest. That should be adequate glue surface for the epoxy.
> 
> Great, I'll take a run at this when I get home.



3/4" deep you mean? If so that would work. You need enough surface on the dowel to keep the pressures in cutting from 'pulling' the ferrule off over the dowel. My first petty had a bit too short of a tang, and the ferrule was small. this meant that the dowel only went about 1/4" into the ferrule. It took a few months, but I was cutting with it one day and the ferrule just separated from the handle causing the knife to come loose. I fixed it by welding the tang a bit longer and just reattaching everything...but I have since corrected the entire issue by simply making the ferrules longer and making sure I bore them out deep enough.


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## richinva (Sep 24, 2013)

yes, 3/4" deep, backbored, so to speak. I'll try to leave about 1/4" at the tang hole, so whatever is left...............


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## CPD (Sep 24, 2013)

Not sure it will help specifically with the questions in this thread, but there's a handle photo tutorial in the show your work forum that shows one method for the handle process. There are tons of different approaches that work for handle assembly, and suspect we all have invented our own variations, but it's helpful to see other's processes .... #Richinva - you may want to check it out for some ideas.


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## Mike Davis (Sep 26, 2013)

i use a full length dowel, minus 1/4 at the ferrule ans i leave a bit more meat at the butt i use a mini mill to match the tang slot to the point of initial fit is hammered on. i have a full wip i did on this i will post.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 26, 2013)

Mike Davis said:


> i use a full length dowel, minus 1/4 at the ferrule ans i leave a bit more meat at the butt i use a mini mill to match the tang slot to the point of initial fit is hammered on. i have a full wip i did on this i will post.



I would love to see that Mike! That sounds pretty much like how I do it...less the hammering. I have nightmares about exploding ferrules lol. I would absolutely like to close up the gap on my ferrules though, at least by a small amount, so I'm definitely interested in seeing the method you're using.


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