# Making Bread



## Oaken (Oct 18, 2014)

Hi All,
New to the forum. I'll be making a post about Forgies soon, but in the meantime I thought I'd start a bread thread.

I am a long-time bread maker. I kept an active sourdough for several years (following a build technique from LaBrea bread guru Nancy Silverton) and now I mostly make fresh, using a poolish that I build for a day. The sourdough still waits in the freezer for another activation.
This is the basic recipe I use: http://allrecipes.com/recipe/pain-de-campagne---country-french-bread/

Does anybody else make bread?


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## slash (Oct 18, 2014)

Oaken said:


> Hi All,
> New to the forum. I'll be making a post about Forgies soon, but in the meantime I thought I'd start a bread thread.
> 
> I am a long-time bread maker. I kept an active sourdough for several years (following a build technique from LaBrea bread guru Nancy Silverton) and now I mostly make fresh, using a poolish that I build for a day. The sourdough still waits in the freezer for another activation.
> ...


Hi not a bread maker, but could you give me a recipe for a healthy wheat free.. yeast free loaf,it's for a friend who recently took an allergy test and found that they are allergic to wheat, yeast and many other things.So at the moment they're only making flat bread any ideas would be appreciated.


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## Chifunda (Oct 18, 2014)

I've made most all our bread for the past few years and have worked my way through most of the popular books on the subject: Tartine, LaBrea,
Reinhart, Lahey etc. Lately I find myself making a simple sandwich loaf using white whole wheat, rye, and unbleached bread flour for daily consumption or a boule if we're having soup or a stew.

As for equipment, I find baking boules on my pizza steel gives quite a nice oven spring to the loaf. After the final rise I invert the proofing basket onto a piece of parchment paper on my pizza peel, slide it onto the steel and stand back. :biggrin:

Not a big Williams-Sonoma fan but their Goldtouch bread and muffin pans are amazing. 

And lastly, I replaced my recently retired Hobart era Kitchen Aid with a Bosch Compact and absolutely love it. Since arthritis reared it's ugly head I can't really knead dough any more and the little Bosch does a bang up job.

Thanks for your post and welcome to the forum.


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## larrybard (Oct 18, 2014)

Welcome, and thanks for the recipe. I intend to try it. I love fresh, crusty bread. Cold easily make a meal of a loaf and some good butter. (Even though Atkins would disapprove.) Most recently I made a no knead bread, which wasn't bad. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html?_r=1& But had no success with Robertson's Tartine recipe. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/d...rtines-country-bread-your-own.html?ref=dining And simple though bagels seem to be (if one just reads the recipe), I've been somewhat disappointed by my results (and not just due to my high standards as an ex-New Yorker).

One question about your recipe: if I only want to make one baguette at a time, instead of halving the recipe may I freeze half the dough?


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## Oaken (Oct 20, 2014)

@ slash: the only recipes I can think of would be like cornbread. Both yeast and wheat free is tough. 
@ Chi: I LOVE the parchment idea. Don't know why I never thought of that. I normally do oil and cornmeal. 
@ Larry: yes, you can freeze before the second rise. Not quite as good, but still fine. Just thaw in fridge, then warm on counter for an hour before you shape. I normally make a half recipe because it makes a ton of dough - probably 4 baguettes from the full amount.


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## slash (Oct 20, 2014)

Oaken said:


> @ slash: the only recipes I can think of would be like cornbread. Both yeast and wheat free is tough.
> @ Chi: I LOVE the parchment idea. Don't know why I never thought of that. I normally do oil and cornmeal.
> @ Larry: yes, you can freeze before the second rise. Not quite as good, but still fine. Just thaw in fridge, then warm on counter for an hour before you shape. I normally make a half recipe because it makes a ton of dough - probably 4 baguettes from the full amount.



Thanks anyway Oaken... would you believe the said person is also alergic to corn only mildly and also eggs.... it's quite a predicament.


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## larrybard (Oct 20, 2014)

Oaken said:


> @ Larry: yes, you can freeze before the second rise. Not quite as good, but still fine. Just thaw in fridge, then warm on counter for an hour before you shape. I normally make a half recipe because it makes a ton of dough - probably 4 baguettes from the full amount.



So, after reading the recipe, if I understand you correctly you're saying that after I let the dough rise the first time, about 2-3 hours, and then deflate it and cut it into two pieces, I can freeze one of those pieces (maybe after first also letting it rest for 30 minutes)?


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## Oaken (Oct 20, 2014)

larrybard said:


> So, after reading the recipe, if I understand you correctly you're saying that after I let the dough rise the first time, about 2-3 hours, and then deflate it and cut it into two pieces, I can freeze one of those pieces (maybe after first also letting it rest for 30 minutes)?



yep, I would throw it in a ziplock, squeeze out the air and freeze right after the cut.
Some good tips here:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5100/freezing-bread-dough-bake-later

*something other things I do with the Pain de Campagne recipe. 
-I often make it with just white flour, or mostly white and just a little wheat for some tooth feel.
-I do a slower build of the poolish. I start with ½ cup of flour, ½ a cup of water and a ¼ tsp of yeast. I then feed it twice more (every 6-8 hours) with a 1/8 cup of flour (2 Tbsp.) each time. It allows for more flavor to develop.
-I mix each feed in with a butter knife and stir it a lot to build the gluten.
-Depending on how you shape the loaves it can take 40 minutes to bake.


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## rahimlee54 (Oct 21, 2014)

Chifunda said:


> I've made most all our bread for the past few years and have worked my way through most of the popular books on the subject: Tartine, LaBrea,
> Reinhart, Lahey etc. Lately I find myself making a simple sandwich loaf using white whole wheat, rye, and unbleached bread flour for daily consumption or a boule if we're having soup or a stew.
> 
> As for equipment, I find baking boules on my pizza steel gives quite a nice oven spring to the loaf. After the final rise I invert the proofing basket onto a piece of parchment paper on my pizza peel, slide it onto the steel and stand back. :biggrin:
> ...



I have been making alot of pan au lait recently. I use the buchon bakery formula, which calls for cream cheese, it is excellent. Grilled cheese and sandwhiches are great on this bread. It is to squishy for a long soak french toast though.


I need to look into the bosch compact that may be the ticket I have been searching for. The USA pan brand pans are great as well. I am converting to those from my cheap wedding registry presents still. Can't compare to the WS gold touch as I haven't used them but they do feel nice in hand for sure.


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## Chifunda (Oct 22, 2014)

rahimlee54 said:


> I have been making alot of pan au lait recently. I use the buchon bakery formula, which calls for cream cheese, it is excellent. Grilled cheese and sandwhiches are great on this bread. It is to squishy for a long soak french toast though.
> 
> 
> I need to look into the bosch compact that may be the ticket I have been searching for. The USA pan brand pans are great as well. I am converting to those from my cheap wedding registry presents still. Can't compare to the WS gold touch as I haven't used them but they do feel nice in hand for sure.



Never made pan au lait before but I'll give it a try; just placed a hold on Bouchon Bakery at my local library. Do you bake yours in a pullman pan? Don't own one, but I'm always looking for an excuse to buy more bakeware. I own so many bread pans, muffin pans, sheet pans, jellyroll pans, etc., I've resorted to using our dishwasher to store them in. Never liked the damn thing for washing dishes anyhow.

Speaking of bread pans, from what I understand, USA makes the Goldtouch pans for W-S, the difference between the two being the non stick coating. 

And do check out the Bosch Compact if you're looking for a new mixer. http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-MUM4405-Compact-Mixer-mum4405/dp/B0006DORPU/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1413978624&sr=1-1&keywords=bosch+compact+mixer Price is reasonable and if you're making one or two loaves at a time I don't know of anything better. I use mine for pizza dough as well.


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## rahimlee54 (Oct 22, 2014)

I do have a small pullman pan, I use it the most of any of my bake ware, and I have alot. I like it for making enriched dough so they are nicely shaped for french toast or grilled cheeses. I really like my KA for baking but I have been thinking about a bosch for bread for a few years. $200 is alot easier to swallow than $600. I got the small pan and having two wouldn't be bad for a recipe of brioche but I get by on one easily. I really enjoy the Bouchon Bakery book, there are a few techniques I have picked up, mostly just more finesse nothing that makes a monumental difference but just nice finishing touches. 

I tried to find the pain au lait recipe online last night but no one has posted it, I can take a picture of it if you'd like, I do enjoy it.


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## SyndicateNova (Oct 22, 2014)

I love Ken Forkish's "Flour Water Salt Yeast". It has lots of detailed information on straight day doughs, pre-ferments, as well as breads baked with levain. You should invest in a good digital scale as volume measurements are inaccurate and almost every good baker relies on weight measurements. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/160774273X/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WJMTNA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Chifunda (Oct 23, 2014)

rahimlee54 said:


> I tried to find the pain au lait recipe online last night but no one has posted it, I can take a picture of it if you'd like, I do enjoy it.



Thanks for the offer but I should have the book in hand in a few days. I do appreciate your bringing it to my attention.


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## Chifunda (Oct 23, 2014)

SyndicateNova said:


> You should invest in a good digital scale as volume measurements are inaccurate and almost every good baker relies on weight measurements.


Yup. Here's mine:





Timer function's great for brewing coffee.


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## Lizzardborn (Oct 23, 2014)

Okay. I need some detective work done. I made my best loaf so far and I have no idea why.

So far I have been doing no knead bread (small kitchen, no place for kneading surface). I also experimented with making starter - I have a 100% hydration one that doubles in 4-6 hours.

Common problems I had so far were - sticky dough, unshapable dough - it had enough volume but it could not hold shape, not good bread structure - I had acceptable loaves, better than store bought but nothing to brag about. (been baking for a month so far).

So today I decided to do something different.

Basic formula (IIRC)

100% flour
30% starter
60% really hot water
1.5% salt
1.4% dry yeast.

Took 150 grams of cold (100% hydration) starter from the fridge. Mixed 250 grams of flour with 300 grams of water and then with the starter. Left the mixture for hour and a half until all bubbly, you could hear tearing sound when taking piece of the dough away from the rest. Added the yeast. Mixed the remaining 250 grams flour with the salt, mixed with previous mixture. Left it for and hour to proof - what was there was very strong, very shapable dough that made the boule keep its shape, and had insane oven spring - it touched the lid on the dutch oven.

So can someone more knowledgeable of the process tell what was the important "right" step.


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## SyndicateNova (Oct 23, 2014)

I think because of your relatively short proof period of 1 hour, you achieved a lot of oven spring. Achieving more flavor in the bread is possible by letting the dough proof longer.

Ultimately, I want to find out what the limits are for every bread I make. At what point is it overproofed? When the physical structure of the gluten breaks down and can no longer hold the gas, that is when it collapses. The next time you make that dough, stop just prior to that point. Go through the same process with bulk fermentation, exploring what combinations of time and temperature are too much. _What's too much? I don't know, let's give it some more time tomorrow and see what happens_ It's really the process of finding the limits at each stage that make all the difference in the final bread. It's something that you can only figure out with repetition and by paying attention to what happens when the variables change. I've found that my breads come from finding the limits and then pulling back a bit-just enough. Not too much


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## Oaken (Oct 24, 2014)

Lizzardborn said:


> Okay. I need some detective work done. I made my best loaf so far and I have no idea why.
> 
> So far I have been doing no knead bread (small kitchen, no place for kneading surface). I also experimented with making starter - I have a 100% hydration one that doubles in 4-6 hours.
> 
> ...



Sometimes it is the weather, sometimes it is the flour. Its all very variable. I don't have a lot of experience with no kneads, so it's hard to say
I think Nova is on the right track with the proofing. 
It may also be that the mixing of each step allowed for more gluten development.
I generally knead in the big bowl that I mix in and it works pretty well. I also hold the dough between my hands and shake it so it bows downward about a foot, then fold it and do it again and again. That's another way to knead.


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## Lizzardborn (Oct 24, 2014)

I doubt it was mixing because the "kneading" time was less than a minute.

Used same flour/yeast/tap water.

That the oven spring is due to underproofing is probably correct - it did had some tensile strength left. But it is the less interesting question for me - why I suddenly had perfectly workable dough is more curious. I will try some experiments these days, but it is hard to have baking as a hobby while being on keto.


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## choppy (Oct 25, 2014)

slash said:


> Hi not a bread maker, but could you give me a recipe for a healthy wheat free.. yeast free loaf,it's for a friend who recently took an allergy test and found that they are allergic to wheat, yeast and many other things.So at the moment they're only making flat bread any ideas would be appreciated.



these could be of help:
http://www.theglutenfreespouse.com/2011/06/gluten-free-egg-free-yeast-free-bread.html
http://www.celiactravel.com/blog/gluten-free-yeast-free-bread-rolls-and-loaf/

replace the cornstarch with arrowroot.


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## Lizzardborn (Oct 28, 2014)

First try at using 85% hydration with stretch and fold.


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## scotchef38 (Oct 28, 2014)

Looks damn tasty - just need some French butter and life is great.


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## Chifunda (Oct 28, 2014)

Nice! Wish I could tell you how to get more height to a loaf with 85% hydration, but I've never been able to do it. Actually, I've pretty much stopped using the no knead approach. Especially since my little Bosch does my kneading for me now. :happymug:

And to be fair, I must credit my (very) able bodied assistant.


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## Lizzardborn (Oct 28, 2014)

Chifunda said:


> Nice! Wish I could tell you how to get more height to a loaf with 85% hydration, but I've never been able to do it.
> 
> And to be fair, I must credit my (very) able bodied assistant.



Why always chefs get the hot girls and none for the simple programmers 

Getting height is easy - use small round dutch oven. But I have given up on making the dough hold its shape - I only try to develop enough gluten to hold the gas.

@scotchef38 - where I live - the national spice is a mix of saltm pepper and savory. Put that on freshly melted butter. Oh well. 

Does anyone have solid grasp on the bread theory? How much of the starch and gluten the yeast and/or lactobacilii eat during long ferment? With the amounts of bread I eat lately I should have ballooned a lot of pounds, but my weight is stable.


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## Chifunda (Oct 28, 2014)

In response to my own post...

:youwish:


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## apicius9 (Oct 28, 2014)

I am far from being knowledgeable, but I occasionally dabble with no knead breads, too. A few weeks ago I made one that was flat, did not at all rise as expected. Simple solution: I bought fresh yeast, made all the difference. A few days ago I made one with 85% hydration after reading this here, I usually stay around 75%. But I like my breads a bit denser and add 1/4 part whole wheat flour, so I was hoping the extra water would help it. Left 8h on the kitchen counter (in Hawaiian temperatures), then 2 days in the fridge. Came out nice - sorry it was half eaten before I thought of taking pictures... I especially like that the dough is much easier to handle when it comes straight out of the fridge. BTW, I use 800g of flour and that fits perfectly in my 4qt Staub dutch oven. Besides water, salt and yeast I sometimes at a tablespoon of syrup made from sugar beets (it's a German thing, sort of our vegemite, only sweet  ).

Stefan


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