# Your thoughts on edge profiles and balance points.



## BloodrootVW

I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on two topics:

1) What are your favorite profiles?

2) Where do you like your knives balanced? 

In our shop, we are in more-or-less constant conversation about these two aspects of use. The profiles seem very strongly tied to a person's preferred cutting stroke and the balance to point and type of grip--even more that weight within a given range. Perhaps, gyutos and chefs in the +210mm range would be a good place to start.

Feel free to ask for any clarifications. Thanks for your thoughts!

David


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## bkultra

1) Masamoto KS

2) @ the pinch grip or just slightly in front of it


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## YG420

+1 what bk said on both points


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## RDalman

I only need to argue with myself in my shop &#128524;

I make for my own preference basically. My profile is a mix of ks and shig, slightly lower tipped. I'm happiest with balance point slightly in front of pinch, and that's part of why I like natural wood for handle, lightweight


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## Matus

I am going to assume we are implicitly talking about gyuto knives.

When it comes to profile I would mention that what strongly affects one's preferences (often without realizing it) is the height of the cutting surface relative to the person. I for example have found out that I prefer flatter knives (e.g. Munetoshi), because when using the tip on a knife that has more belly - the end of the handle would collide with my forearm. It turned out that the main reason is that our counter-top together with the thick cutting board is rather tall and I am not.

1) With the above said, I prefer flatter profiles and in general knives where the curve of the cutting edge is more even rather then when the curvature decreasses abruptly toward the tip as that makes the tip too hard for me to use. It is partially also dictated by the fact that I rather 'chop' than 'slice' when possible. Munetoshi profile is on the flat side (flatter would be too flat for me), but also Itinomonn SemiStainless or kurouchi Tanaka from James work fine for me. At the same time - the flat spot at the heel should IMO not be 'dead flat' (in particular if it is longer) as that makes the knife bite (get stuck) in the cutting board more easily I find.

2) I prefer to have some weight on the tip when holding the knife in pinch grip what is directly related to my preference for 'chopping', so center of mass some 2-4 cm in front of the heel of the knife. This is fo 15r knives in the length 180 and more with weight 150g and more. With smaller &/or lighter knives this is less relevant for me (and also not technically feasible).


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## bkultra

Matus said:


> I am going to assume we are implicitly talking about gyuto knives.






BloodrootVW said:


> Perhaps, gyutos and chefs in the +210mm range would be a good place to start.



You assume correctly


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## Matus

bkultra said:


> You assume correctly



I am just such a clever chap


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## panda

+3 what bkultra said
i would add grind and steel preference: 
grind - medium-thick grind spine biased for food release, aggressive horizontal tapering
steel - top priority is ease of sharpening (ie shirogami), heat treat pushed to the max like 63+ HRC


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## BloodrootVW

bkultra said:


> 1) Masamoto KS
> 
> 2) @ the pinch grip or just slightly in front of it



What is it about the action of that fulcrum and profile that make it work well for you? I am thinking about the mechanics of the cutting motion itself.


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## bkultra

It's a combination of the profile and distal taper. It's has a large usable flat spot towards the back that's thicker and used for heavier tasks. Yet the tip is very pointy and thin for detailed work. This is for push/pull cutters (the chosen ones)

I've made this offer to a few people, but if you would like to see my Honyaki Masamoto to better understand just PM me.

Handle to Tip Length- 275.0mm
Heel to Tip Length- 253.0mm
Blade Height at Heel- 50.0mm
Width of Spine at Handle- 3.5mm
Width of Spine Above Heel- 3.2mm
Width of Spine at Middle- 2.1mm
Width of Spine about 1cm from the tip- 0.7mm


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## khashy

bkultra said:


> It's a combination of the profile and distal taper. It's has a large usable flat spot towards the back that's thicker and used for heavier tasks. Yet the tip is very pointy and thin for detailed work. This is for push/pull cutters (the chosen ones)
> 
> I've made this offer to a few people, but if you would like to see my Honyaki Masamoto to better understand just PM me.
> 
> Handle to Tip Length- 275.0mm
> Heel to Tip Length- 253.0mm
> Blade Height at Heel- 50.0mm
> Width of Spine at Handle- 3.5mm
> Width of Spine Above Heel- 3.2mm
> Width of Spine at Middle- 2.1mm
> Width of Spine about 1cm from the tip- 0.7mm



If only I lived in the US....


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## BloodrootVW

panda said:


> +3 what bkultra said
> i would add grind and steel preference:
> grind - medium-thick grind spine biased for food release, aggressive horizontal tapering
> steel - top priority is ease of sharpening (ie shirogami), heat treat pushed to the max like 63+ HRC



I realize that I am asking a somewhat reductive question by singling out those two aspects because grind and steel are very important as well. I would like to isolate the action of the knife itself and how the balance and profile start and finish the cutting motion. Why does this particular profile and balance work better than others in your hand?


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## Chef_

1) masamoto style profile. The less belly the better. I have no use for it. I like more flat space to chop and a low tip to do quick draw cuts.
2) i prefer the balance to be slightly above pinch grip, so i have more weight in the blade than the handle.


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## bkultra

Regarding the balance which I forgot to explain in my last post. If you have the weight too far back you loose the control needed for the detailed tip work. The farther back you move the balance point the less perceived control you have with the tip. Keep in mind this is with a larger blade (my masamoto is just over 250mm) the difference would be lessened with a shorter knife. The problem is shorter knives just doesn't give the ability to have a profile with a large enough flat spot IMO.

I should also point out that even if you move the weight too far forward or back I would still be able to use the back third of the blade without much of a problem. Sure it wouldn't be ideal but my hand being right above the heel gives my that perceived control. 

Having the balance point at or just slightly in front of the pinch grip strikes the perfect balance... It feels natural when using the heel or back third of the blade because it's balanced right there, this limits the amount of fatigue. Yet you don't feel like you are fighting to keep the tip down during detailed work.


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## BloodrootVW

Thank you for such a thorough response! Very helpful.


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## fatboylim

Besides a flat profile like a Masamoto KS, height and balance make a big difference to me. The shorter height the more blade heavy, the taller the more neutral balance. 

A standard 47-50mm blade at 240 Gyuto, ideally 25-35mm in front of the pinch grip - so blade heavy. This is because it is nimble at this height. Standard height = blade heavy. 

For taller knives +55mm, then balanced at or just in front of the pinch grip is ideal as the height makes tip work more difficult/delicate. Also, the height gives more power so less need for blade heavy. Tall = balanced weighted. 

Just my way of it working.


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## Benuser




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## panda

KS profile is not actually flat, it only appears flat. there is a long slow curve throughout that only this knife seems to have. the action is unequaled in how natural it feels in use.


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## bkultra

panda said:


> KS profile is not actually flat, it only appears flat. there is a long slow curve throughout that only this knife seems to have. the action is unequaled in how natural it feels in use.



+1000

This is often overlooked or misunderstood. The KS is not dead flat it has a very suddel curve the entire length of the blade. I would take a picture of the edge against my board, but it is currently in GA.


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## panda

knives & stones did a collaboration with jikko to do a custom profile based on KS (less length, more height). i've heard it reported that it was quite a successful project. personally i love the length at 250mm, but wouldn't mind more height.

what sets apart good profiles from not so good ones is the transition from middle of the blade to the tip. for example the sakai made knives that transition is very abrupt and it feels awful in use. also, many knives the nose is curved too much upward. a low sitting nose is ideal. 

my mizuno honyaki 240, there is a huge flat spot, so the action is somewhat limited and is not exactly natural feeling. however the transition from middle to tip is smooth and gradual (key word, gradual) with a low sitting nose so it's still a good profile despite not having the organic feel.


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## fatboylim

panda said:


> KS profile is not actually flat, it only appears flat. there is a long slow curve throughout that only this knife seems to have. the action is unequaled in how natural it feels in use.



I stand corrected and thanks panda! Wish I could get my hands on Masamoto KS, so my knowledge is referred only for this one.


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## milkbaby

Props to Bloodroot guys for the balance point pictures in your monthly offerings. This is something most makers don't show or mention. I think it's important for people to have more data for their purchases. 

I think you'll find the input from various forums or sources quite varied. Not everybody is a Japanese knife knut, and for many of these people, they may find there is not enough belly on a Masamoto KS profile to their liking. For custom commissions, it's easy to take the customers needs into account. But pre-made knives, I'm not sure you can find the ideal Cinderella fit for even the majority. Just my opinion.


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## BloodrootVW

milkbaby said:


> Props to Bloodroot guys for the balance point pictures in your monthly offerings. This is something most makers don't show or mention. I think it's important for people to have more data for their purchases.
> 
> I think you'll find the input from various forums or sources quite varied. Not everybody is a Japanese knife knut, and for many of these people, they may find there is not enough belly on a Masamoto KS profile to their liking. For custom commissions, it's easy to take the customers needs into account. But pre-made knives, I'm not sure you can find the ideal Cinderella fit for even the majority. Just my opinion.



Thank you for your kindness. One of the most compelling reasons for the new sale format is our ability to give people more time to consider their options as well as more information going into those decisions.


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## Jacob_x

BloodrootVW said:


> I realize that I am asking a somewhat reductive question by singling out those two aspects because grind and steel are very important as well. I would like to isolate the action of the knife itself and how the balance and profile start and finish the cutting motion. Why does this particular profile and balance work better than others in your hand?



I would think that grip preference is tied in pretty intrinsically into such analysis too. I favour a pinch grip, and find when I do change (sometimes just for the heck of it, sometimes a nasty cut or something forces it), the whole knife changes quite a lot, almost as if you were using a different knife.
The more I think about it now, I suppose personal cutting technique is quite important too - whether one is a 'wristy' cutter, or keeps the wrist stiffer and uses more 'arm', and also if one prefers push-cutting, or rock chopping et cetera.

To make an example - a knife with belly, if held with a pinch-grip, I think I would prefer the balance point further back in the handle. When weighted such, your knife will want to 'use' the belly, as the heavier handle (and thus the heel of the blade) will want to fall to the board. A blade heavy knife with belly sounds pretty unnatural to use when considered thus.

Although, you could quite easily make the argument the other way around...
I think I'm confusing myself now. A mannequin, with fully working rotating wrists and arms might be a good idea here...


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## BloodrootVW

Jacob_x said:


> I would think that grip preference is tied in pretty intrinsically into such analysis too. I favour a pinch grip, and find when I do change (sometimes just for the heck of it, sometimes a nasty cut or something forces it), the whole knife changes quite a lot, almost as if you were using a different knife.
> The more I think about it now, I suppose personal cutting technique is quite important too - whether one is a 'wristy' cutter, or keeps the wrist stiffer and uses more 'arm', and also if one prefers push-cutting, or rock chopping et cetera.
> 
> To make an example - a knife with belly, if held with a pinch-grip, I think I would prefer the balance point further back in the handle. When weighted such, your knife will want to 'use' the belly, as the heavier handle (and thus the heel of the blade) will want to fall to the board. A blade heavy knife with belly sounds pretty unnatural to use when considered thus.
> 
> Although, you could quite easily make the argument the other way around...
> I think I'm confusing myself now. A mannequin, with fully working rotating wrists and arms might be a good idea here...



Luke and I have had the same conversation in the shop many times. you make a very good point about wristy cutters. I tend to think of the whole action even starting from the feet and working upwards. Matus talked about surface height as being key as well. 

The grip change does make for different knife. My inclination is to think that the principal difference in Western and Japanese knives is really a matter of balance rather than one of profile. The KS to me looks very French bit wants to have its nose on the board rather than its heel. Which leads further to the idea that the gyuto wants to be used from the tip and the French knife more in the heel-flat. Do you by chance have any suggestions for further reading on cutting technique?


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## BloodrootVW

RDalman said:


> I only need to argue with myself in my shop &#128524;
> 
> I make for my own preference basically. My profile is a mix of ks and shig, slightly lower tipped. I'm happiest with balance point slightly in front of pinch, and that's part of why I like natural wood for handle, lightweight



Yeah, having Luke around keeps me from feeling to much like answering the voices 

You are doing some really nice work, by the way. Thank you for your reply!


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## BloodrootVW

Matus said:


> I am going to assume we are implicitly talking about gyuto knives.
> 
> When it comes to profile I would mention that what strongly affects one's preferences (often without realizing it) is the height of the cutting surface relative to the person. I for example have found out that I prefer flatter knives (e.g. Munetoshi), because when using the tip on a knife that has more belly - the end of the handle would collide with my forearm. It turned out that the main reason is that our counter-top together with the thick cutting board is rather tall and I am not.
> 
> 1) With the above said, I prefer flatter profiles and in general knives where the curve of the cutting edge is more even rather then when the curvature decreasses abruptly toward the tip as that makes the tip too hard for me to use. It is partially also dictated by the fact that I rather 'chop' than 'slice' when possible. Munetoshi profile is on the flat side (flatter would be too flat for me), but also Itinomonn SemiStainless or kurouchi Tanaka from James work fine for me. At the same time - the flat spot at the heel should IMO not be 'dead flat' (in particular if it is longer) as that makes the knife bite (get stuck) in the cutting board more easily I find.
> 
> 2) I prefer to have some weight on the tip when holding the knife in pinch grip what is directly related to my preference for 'chopping', so center of mass some 2-4 cm in front of the heel of the knife. This is fo 15r knives in the length 180 and more with weight 150g and more. With smaller &/or lighter knives this is less relevant for me (and also not technically feasible).



Very good point about the surface height and tip relative to the height of the user. I wonder if there might be a basic equation that might be worked out given those two variables along with the height that the user typically raises the heel. The longer the knife the flatter, and I suspect that the shorter knives would be more swept. 

By the way, we started on your knife this last week and will send along some process pics as the shape and grind develop.


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## Matus

I will give such a formula a though - I suppose the main point is to get the height of the elbow based on the physical height. Glad to hear about the knife - I did not want to bug you as you must have been busy with the February sale and it was NOT easy, but I managed


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## BloodrootVW

Matus said:


> I will give such a formula a though - I suppose the main point is to get the height of the elbow based on the physical height. Glad to hear about the knife - I did not want to bug you as you must have been busy with the February sale and it was NOT easy, but I managed



It is a thorny problem because of all of the pivots involved. I have been working (slowly) through an engineering book on cutting and have been thinking through which variables to isolate first. The height of the elbow sounds like a great place to start.

I have been looking forward to getting your project started for a good while and am glad to have it on the board. We should have pictures for you in a few days of our progress.


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## Jacob_x

I don't have any further reading unfortunately no, sorry. Just initial thoughts on the subject really. 
To think from the feet up makes a lot of sense, and certainly the height of the board in respects to the arm/elbow should make a massive difference to cutting action.
This has given me much to consider...


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## BloodrootVW

Jacob_x said:


> I don't have any further reading unfortunately no, sorry. Just initial thoughts on the subject really.
> To think from the feet up makes a lot of sense, and certainly the height of the board in respects to the arm/elbow should make a massive difference to cutting action.
> This has given me much to consider...



Let me know if you come up with anything. One of the things that I am working off is one of the recommended postures I have seen for using a yanagiba where the feet are set apart and the hips are at something like a 45 to the board.


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## merlijny2k

Not much experience with using different profiles myself, but I have spent considerable time reading the forum for some reason I sometimes have trouble understanding myself. One observation that keeps striking me from that is that when you follow what most people say they want from a gyuto: flat profile, little belly, low tip, gentle curve, what you basically end up with is a funayuki. But nobody wants a funayuki, even though we all love the ThEoRy cutting vids with what appears to me as a Harner Funayuki, althoug I am not 100% sure on that. My own theory on that is that funayuki's are really usefull (although i don't have one so once again just thoughts) but we just don't like how they look that much (including me). Which leads me to a really interesting observation someone here made (forgot who) about KU finish being a great way of hiding the 'lowness of tip' of a knife. What we really might need is not so much an improvement in knife shapes, but more diversity in aesthetic ways to make a funayuki or almost-funayuki profile visually acceptable.


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## BloodrootVW

merlijny2k said:


> Not much experience with using different profiles myself, but I have spent considerable time reading the forum for some reason I sometimes have trouble understanding myself. One observation that keeps striking me from that is that when you follow what most people say they want from a gyuto: flat profile, little belly, low tip, gentle curve, what you basically end up with is a funayuki. But nobody wants a funayuki, even though we all love the ThEoRy cutting vids with what appears to me as a Harner Funayuki, althoug I am not 100% sure on that. My own theory on that is that funayuki's are really usefull (although i don't have one so once again just thoughts) but we just don't like how they look that much (including me). Which leads me to a really interesting observation someone here made (forgot who) about KU finish being a great way of hiding the 'lowness of tip' of a knife. What we really might need is not so much an improvement in knife shapes, but more diversity in aesthetic ways to make a funayuki or almost-funayuki profile visually acceptable.



That is a super interesting idea. I have often thought that user perception is an understudied aspect of knifery. My perceptions about a knife within given quality range--e.g. that it holds a good edge, will affect my care for it and will become a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. I realize that there is much objective data that demands the bulk of our attention, but improvement in aesthetics should have a corresponding improvement to function when properly understood and applied, not, of course, that we get it correct all the time...

You are absolutely correct about the funyaki. It is a relatively easy shape to make look sleek, but the shape itself is hard to call 'graceful.' Perhaps something to work on here in the shop. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!


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## merlijny2k

I found the thread where the idea was first launched. With pictures and all. 
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...m-to-have-a-flat-profile?highlight=KU+profile


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## BloodrootVW

merlijny2k said:


> I found the thread where the idea was first launched. With pictures and all.
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...m-to-have-a-flat-profile?highlight=KU+profile



Thanks! It is a very point about basically using the KU finish as an aesthetic stand-in for the shinogi line. Adjusting the spine line to accommodate the flatter profile is also pretty important.


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## merlijny2k

I'll share another thought on aesthetics.
In most knives the spine and the edge start more or less parralel and must at some distance from the handle be brought together, getting eiher a lot of belly ,which we don't like the handling of, a drop tip ,which we don't like the looks of, or something in between. The in betweens are the majority and have the nicest tips, but aren't flat enough for some. What always interests me is the shapes that try to circumvent the issue of bringing two parralel lines together altogether by using a triangle as the basic shape. The Van Zantens from my country being one example. The problem here is that you get either a handle that somewhat points up when the edge is flat against the board, the Van Zanten seems to have this issue to a degree, ar a sharp bend in the spine. A sharp corner in the spine pushing the handle down fixes performance issues but make the knife ugly. The brilliance of the Kramer profile is mostly in the spine I think, which he manages to curve just right to avoid both an abrubt bend and having an upward pointing handle.

The KS that is much praised also has a fully optimized solution as it does start with parralel lines but curves them both so gently towards each other you get an almost-triangle. This only works in longer knives and hence the non-existance of shorter knives in that line.

A very interesting recent development i find the radial damascus patterns with lines starting from the handle outward as in a Shun Taiyo. They have another one which is even more exuberant, almost explosion-like but i can't find it now. The visual effects that can be achieved with a radial line pattern and what knife-shapes you can hide within them is so far unstudied as far as I know.


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## merlijny2k

Of all the different patterns IMO the radial lines masque the shape best. Now of course to make the radial pattern itself look remotely elegant is a challenge by itself, but that requires knowledge and experience that lies beyond me.


http://imgur.com/bd5jg3s


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## BloodrootVW

merlijny2k said:


> Of all the different patterns IMO the radial lines masque the shape best. Now of course to make the radial pattern itself look remotely elegant is a challenge by itself, but that requires knowledge and experience that lies beyond me.
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/bd5jg3s



I appreciate your thoughtful reply. The image that you sent of the profiles was most helpful. When we are profiling the knives in the shop, our typical practice is to balance the transitions from the spine and from the edge into the point (after making sure that the heel lines up properly with the handle). Adjusting the nose means adjusting the edge profile. If those transitional points, get too far away from each other vertically, the knife starts to feel unbalanced.


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## QCDawg

As my "journey" continues...I find the knife's "grind" to be as important as all of the other variables. Man, I love &#10084;&#65039; my Mizuno "shinogi line" gyuto and how thin it gets towards the edge...quickly. Love how it sharpens too. 

Ps..Athens is such a great town! I'm a Dawg and get back there once or twice a year..


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## BloodrootVW

QCDawg said:


> As my "journey" continues...I find the knife's "grind" to be as important as all of the other variables. Man, I love &#10084;&#65039; my Mizuno "shinogi line" gyuto and how thin it gets towards the edge...quickly. Love how it sharpens too.
> 
> Ps..Athens is such a great town! I'm a Dawg and get back there once or twice a year..



We are very happy to be here in Athens. It has been a great place for us to grow and learn.

I agree and think of knife geometry roughly as vertical (grind) and horizontal (profile) planes. The action of a knife on the board isn't of all that much use if the blade doesn't cut through food well--thinness behind the edge seeming the primary factor there.


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