# Deng Xiaowen a Cleaver from Dazu



## schanop

James of Knives and Stones gave me this Deng Xiaowen clever to give it a try a while ago. Deng Xiaowen is a brand from Dazu, famous knife making town in Sichuan province. KKF reader may have seen Dazu reference popping up from time to time. Noodle Soup has some threads about Dazu, Cleaver, and his experience in Sichuan here, here, and here.

This sample is a handmade slicing cleaver (Cai dao) at 20cm x 11cm, 330g. It is a cladded knife in construction.
Despite this is a cai dao, slicing cleaver, its spine is very thick and flat. This is useful for tenderising meat when you flip the cleaver edge side up, and bang the spine towards cutting board. It comes with black scale covered in most area. Despite being rough almost everywhere, I only feel that only the choil needed some tweaking. Core steel is not so centre with respect to the edge. Cladding on right hand side is reaching very close to the edge. At the very tip, it is actually the cladding at the very edge. And right in the middle of the edge, there is a very noticeable crack. Being a cheap knife, don't sweat over all of these issues.

After a small tweaking: grinding and rounding choil, just roughly, and grind the right hand side a fair bit to expose the edge properly, it is a fun cleaver to use.


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## chinacats

Love it! Lighter than I would expect from size and spine thickness, bet it cuts great.


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## schanop

Yes, Jim, it cuts well. Being a touch shorter 20cm, and having a very light handle helps keeping the weight down. It is also very thin through out apart from the spine area.


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## berko

stainless clad? how much are they? how is the edge retention?


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## schanop

It is carbon clad and price should be around $10 at the source in China. Edge retention is normal for a carbon knife of this price range. It is easy to sharpen, so maintaining it in good state is not a big chore.


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## pkjames

for the price I paid (retail in china), I really think whoever forges these blades must be earning a super low wage. If paid better, with a bit of direction on the F&F side, things could get very interesting. Just a thought, never had a chance to go down Dazu (actually not far from where I was born, in Sichuan).


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## schanop

A new project to take on CCK, James? Came across another brand called Dengjia as well. Looks pretty similar to this Deng Xiaowen. Is it like Mr Deng vs Deng Jr?


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## chinacats

schanop said:


> A new project to take on CCK, James? Came across another brand called Dengjia as well. Looks pretty similar to this Deng Xiaowen. Is it like Mr Deng vs Deng Jr?



Great idea! Would be super cool to be able to point people your way vs Wokshop or CCK. Guessing you could get them to work a bit on fit and finish to make a bit more on their product and still leave room for a bit of profit and still an inexpensive cleaver on the market?


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## Bill13

chinacats said:


> Great idea! Would be super cool to be able to point people your way vs Wokshop or CCK. Guessing you could get them to work a bit on fit and finish to make a bit more on their product and still leave room for a bit of profit and still an inexpensive cleaver on the market?



lus1:

The cleaver looks like it has a lot of potential. I'm curious James where you think the price point would be once you intervened and cleaned the rough edges up with the knife maker.


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## Noodle Soup

pkjames said:


> for the price I paid (retail in china), I really think whoever forges these blades must be earning a super low wage. If paid better, with a bit of direction on the F&F side, things could get very interesting. Just a thought, never had a chance to go down Dazu (actually not far from where I was born, in Sichuan).



When I was in Chengdu I asked about Dazu and their cleavers, everyone acted like they had never heard of the place. Poor pronunciation? But the strange thing was every shop seemed to be pushing a certain brand of cleaver at me. I bought one just to see how good it was but I found out when I got home it was a Dazu.


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## pkjames

All the knives from Dazu area are called "the deng's knife", as most of them are somewhat related under the same family name. Most general consumers these days in China are looking for stainless "good looking" knives so these basic rustic looking carbon knives are quickly diminishing, along with the technique. Sad thing to see.

I was impressed by one of these when I first used it at a friend's place in sydney. They told me it was a rusty old blade but once i sharpened it for them, they dropped their jaws. So there came the idea of exploring the possibility of getting something better out of this guys, pretty much like what I do with tanaka. That is the reason a asked chanop to give it a go.

I never thought about price point though, putting a custom handle onto it would certainly make it too expensive.


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## pkjames

Dengjia in Chinese is &#37011;&#23478;&#65292;literally means "the deng family".


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## IndoorOutdoorCook

James, if you bought a batch, I'm sure people would be interested in trying. Even if it came to like $30-40 shipped to US it would be cheaper than CCK.


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## gic

I'd certainly buy a couple to sharpen and give as gifts


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## chinacats

pkjames said:


> I never thought about price point though, putting a custom handle onto it would certainly make it too expensive.



Totally agree, but imo if they just didn't put that tiny metal collar, which looks as if it may feel a bit awkward whereas something that matched or covered the end of the wood it might be easy for them to change...or maybe just wood to the end? Perhaps it is not an issue as is, Chanop what do you think from using it?

I only say that about the handle because of how ergonomically the CCK sits in your hand.


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## foody518

I'd most likely try a rehandled (no need for anything fancy) one if it's possible to meet the price point of $50 or under shipped to the US. Can never try enough cleavers


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## schanop

Well, surprisingly the handle is actually comfortable. Usually I use pistol grip with a cleaver with index finger pointing towards the edge, or sometimes curl over the spine for more force. The handle has enough meat in the middle such that my middle finger, ring finger, and little finger curl and balance the weight of the knife easily. The small metal collar does not bother me in this case.


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## chinacats

Thank you sir, seeing the knife in hand helps and it looks like it just sort of disappears...guess they've been doing it long enough to know what they are doing.:nunchucks:

Looks pretty cool imo.


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## Bill13

I agree with chinacats, the poorly fitted collar is what cheapens the look.


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## KitchenCommander

The spine looks flared. I wonder if the maker decided not to flatten it out, or if the thick spine serves a specific purpose. I would think it may affect comfort if the spine is flared too close to the handle. Though it could act as a lip to help keep food on the knife when scooping product with the blade.


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## schanop

You are correct, the spine is flared intentionally. From my understanding there are two use/benefit. One is that it adds some weight to the thin, light blade making it a better for task like meat mincing. Wider spine is also used for bashing up things, e.g. tenderising/flattening meat with spine, cracking nut shells etc.


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## KitchenCommander

Nice pic, that is a drastic drop off from the spine into the blade. It does look like it would add some weight and "tenderizing" performance to the knife. Cool:cool2:


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## Kamelion

This post made me excited not less than three times:

First, when I read your post and saw the pictures of this beautiful cleaver.

Then, when discovering in the book arriving the very next day  the wonderful _Revolutionary Chinese Cookbook_ by Fuchsia Dunlop , this very cleaver pictured on one page. For me, with an untrained cleaver-eye, they look more or less identical. The flared spine is there. I cannot read the signs though; maybe someone could help with this. I think she also writes about the Dazu cleavers somewhere.






And a third time, when seeing this offer: DENG Forged Kitchen Chef Knife Traditional Handmade. Could it be this? If it is, isnt it a fairly good price?

So, are you happy still with this knife? Would you recommend to buy it? It ships for free to where I live.

All the best,
Johannes


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## gic

There are a bunch of them for sale on ali express: ? is which if any are teh ones to get..

http://www.aliexpress.com/af/deng-k...ve_id=SB_20160621115914&SearchText=deng+knife


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## schanop

That cleaver in Fuchsia's book, I had to go and dig mine out to double check, is similar in design, but I think it is not the same brand/model I got from James. Like James said, they are related in some sense anyway.

22 is probably a good price with shipping included, but don't expect anything miracle out of the blade. It will be a serviceable knife, and probably fun to use.


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## Noodle Soup

Following the links on this series of post allowed me to discover Fuchsia has a new cook book coming out in Oct.! Being a total groupie for her, my copy when on pre-publication order with Amazon.


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## schanop

Thank for the heads up, it is going to be out next Month:  Land of fish and rice at booktopia I love her work too.


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## pkjames

FYI: Land of Fish & Rice is directly translated from the word "&#40060;(fish) &#31859;(rich) &#20043; (of) &#20065; (village)" in Chinese, means "the land of plenty"


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## schanop

Funny, that's her fist title in the US "Land of plenty", it is "Sichuan cookery" for UK, Australia, and probably the rest of the world.


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## Noodle Soup

That is what I was thinking too but this seems to be a cook book for a different region in China. The main fish in that part of China tends to be some type of carp. I've killed, butchered and ate it there, but it isn't that easy to come by where I live.


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## pkjames

i made a typo. "&#40060;(fish) &#31859;(ric*e*) &#20043; (of) &#20065; (village)"


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## OneS

A new Fuchsia Dunlop book will be a must-buy for me. Love the way she has sunk her teeth into Chinese cuisine and made it more accessible to the western world as a result. But I still prefer gyutos to cleavers, what can I say ?


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## Noodle Soup

I'm a big enough fan of Fuchsia that when I was in Chengdu I made a pilgrimage to that huge sharpening stone she talks about sharpening her cleaver on in the court yard while in the Sichuan cooking school. It is some kind of natural stone but I've never seen anything like it for sale in the markets. Just the universal Silicon carbide stones found all over Asia.


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## Kamelion

schanop said:


> That cleaver in Fuchsia's book, I had to go and dig mine out to double check, is similar in design, but I think it is not the same brand/model I got from James. Like James said, they are related in some sense anyway.
> 
> 22 is probably a good price with shipping included, but don't expect anything miracle out of the blade. It will be a serviceable knife, and probably fun to use.



Thank you for the answer. I think I will give it a go for that price.


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## Kamelion

I am also thinking about buying a bigger, stainless steel cleaver (like the CCK 1101 or so). What do you guys think about these boys:

SmartWife 8Cr13 Cleaver for $ 28.45 (I have the carbon version of this cleaver, see this post.)

or

SHIBAZI 4Cr13 Mov-2 Cleaver / SHIBAZI 4Cr13 Mov-1 for $ 31.41 or 40.03 respectively.

What are your opinions about the choice of steel? The Shibazi cleavers do look fairly thick at the spine. Some 7 mm (can this be right? do not read chinese ) against the 3mm of the SmartWife Good, not good?


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## Noodle Soup

I have a Shibazi that I think is the same model. Bought off "he who's name must not be spoken" several years ago. It is a big heavy work horse I save for special occasions but its not my favorite for everyday use. Great knife for making stock when there are chicken bones to be chopped though.


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## Tonsku38

I got mine Deng cleaver today and it feels very promising. It is much thinner then I have expected and cuts quite nicely after quick sharpening. I will test it better tomorrow at work. I think edge needs little bit of thinning. It was very f&f was very rought but I rounded some sharp edges on spine, choil and handle and now it feels much better. Definitely worth of every cents.


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## Kamelion

Tonsku38 said:


> I got mine Deng cleaver today and it feels very promising. It is much thinner then I have expected and cuts quite nicely after quick sharpening. I will test it better tomorrow at work. I think edge needs little bit of thinning. It was very f&f was very rought but I rounded some sharp edges on spine, choil and handle and now it feels much better. Definitely worth of every cents.



So did you buy this one? 
DENG Forged Kitchen Chef Knife Traditional Handmade


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## Tonsku38

Kamelion said:


> So did you buy this one?
> DENG Forged Kitchen Chef Knife Traditional Handmade



Can't get that link open but if you search deng knife from aliexpress it's second on the listing. It has very rought handle and there is white backround in picture. I like it so much I also ordered Shibazi S210-2.


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## Kamelion

Tonsku38 said:


> Can't get that link open but if you search deng knife from aliexpress it's second on the listing. It has very rought handle and there is white backround in picture. I like it so much I also ordered Shibazi S210-2.



Strange that the link does not work. But it is the one with the name "Free Shipping DENG Forged Kitchen Chef Knife Traditional Handmade Clip Steel Slicing Meat Vegetable Multifunctional Knives" and the Model Number DJ-11, and with some sort of blade protection on the picture, it seems? It comes first on the list when I search however. Does this link work?

I think I will wait with the Shibazi, since a friend will buy a Chan Chi Kee for mi later this year in Hong Kong. Now the question is, carbon steel or stainless ..?


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## Noodle Soup

Kamelion said:


> So did you buy this one?
> DENG Forged Kitchen Chef Knife Traditional Handmade



if I'm not mistaken, I have one these knives that I bought in Southern China a few years ago. Same handle and blade style anyway. Never have used it much as it is a fairly small blade for a cleaver and it always seemed easier to reach for a larger knife.


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## Noodle Soup

Digging my knife out and taking a second look it seems to be a little different. Same size but not quite as thick in the spine and the blade stamping seems to read a little different. It might be from the same maker but just a less expensive model.


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## Tonsku38

Kamelion said:


> Strange that the link does not work. But it is the one with the name "Free Shipping DENG Forged Kitchen Chef Knife Traditional Handmade Clip Steel Slicing Meat Vegetable Multifunctional Knives" and the Model Number DJ-11, and with some sort of blade protection on the picture, it seems? It comes first on the list when I search however. Does this link work?
> 
> I think I will wait with the Shibazi, since a friend will buy a Chan Chi Kee for mi later this year in Hong Kong. Now the question is, carbon steel or stainless ..?



Now it works and that is same knife. Handle was very uncomfortable but I thinned almost half away and now it works fine. Here's a video of me chopping sone onions with it. https://www.instagram.com/p/BIYEHEqBsz5/


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## Noodle Soup

Seems to work for you!


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## schanop

I giggled a bit when postman buzzed on the door today.







New book is beautiful, a lot of text and pictures. Roughly it is probably similar ratio for text and pictures as in "Every grain of rice"

Then in spirit of knife knuts, I quickly flipped through to see if there is any picture of a cleaver.


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## schanop

Here's is a nice long interview with Ms Dunlop, done very recently.

http://www.thegannet.com/interviews/meals/lunch/2016/07/fuchsia-dunlop/


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## OneS

Nice article, thanks for the link.


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## Kamelion

So dear forumers,

today the postman arrived with my knife. Unpacked, and quickly inspected it looks nice. I will post pictures tomorrow. 

One question though: when washing away the (machine) oil from the factory, protecting the blade from rust, i noticed that my dish brush became black from the black lacquer (or whatever it is). Afterwards i gave it a quick wipe with mineral oil to further prevent rust, and the paper turned really black, and it seems, I can continue wipe more black stuff off. 

This layer also smells somewhat smokey, as in a smithery, which is nice, but I wonder: what is this, and do I want it in my food?


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## Kamelion

So, do anyone know what cleaver this is, and what steel? Would interest me very much.


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## Kamelion

Then in spirit of knife knuts, I quickly flipped through to see if there is any picture of a cleaver.



[/QUOTE]

So, does anyone know what knife this is?


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## XooMG

Kamelion said:


> So dear forumers,
> 
> today the postman arrived with my knife. Unpacked, and quickly inspected it looks nice. I will post pictures tomorrow.
> 
> One question though: when washing away the (machine) oil from the factory, protecting the blade from rust, i noticed that my dish brush became black from the black lacquer (or whatever it is). Afterwards i gave it a quick wipe with mineral oil to further prevent rust, and the paper turned really black, and it seems, I can continue wipe more black stuff off.
> 
> This layer also smells somewhat smokey, as in a smithery, which is nice, but I wonder: what is this, and do I want it in my food?


I recommend doing several wipedowns with oil, a decent wash with soapy water, and a few more oily cloth rubdowns to see how much you can take off. Much of it is likely grinding dust.


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## Noodle Soup

you are luckier than me. I ordered two cleavers off the Chinese link on these posts over a couple of months ago and have not received them. The website said I needed to wait until Aug. 13th to file a claim. Well, guess what it is Aug. 13th. The original order said 10-15 days (back in June) and all my attempts at tracking say "in route for delivery"


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## turbochef422

I ordered one and forgot about it and two months later a smashed little box appeared. The cleaver was all good and I'm very happy with it but it took a looong time


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## schanop

Kamelion said:


> So, does anyone know what knife this is?



I believe it is Chan Chi Kee 1812. She said in her interview in the gannet link above that it was bought in Hong Kong.


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## Kamelion

schanop said:


> I believe it is Chan Chi Kee 1812. She said in her interview in the gannet link above that it was bought in Hong Kong.



Thanks! On this topicforgive me if I do not follow the theme of the thread strictly heredo you, or anyone else, know what kind of cleaver Fuchsia is using in this article?

She has talked about CCK cleavers, so that seems to be a reasonable possibility. However, do you think it is a carbon or stainless steel? She has written about her preference for some carbon content, but for me this looks rather stainless steel, even if the patina is interesting? 

This leads me to my follow up question: do you know how reactive the carbon steel knives from CCK are? And: how much carbon is there in the stainless steel range? 

Reason for asking is, that a friend of mine is going to HK and could buy me one, and I am pending back and forth between 1102 and 1112.

Do you have any great recommendations, guys? Again, forgive me for this passus about Dunlop and CCK!


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## schanop

Kamelion said:


> Thanks! On this topicforgive me if I do not follow the theme of the thread strictly heredo you, or anyone else, know what kind of cleaver Fuchsia is using in this article?
> 
> She has talked about CCK cleavers, so that seems to be a reasonable possibility. However, do you think it is a carbon or stainless steel? She has written about her preference for some carbon content, but for me this looks rather stainless steel, even if the patina is interesting?
> 
> This leads me to my follow up question: do you know how reactive the carbon steel knives from CCK are? And: how much carbon is there in the stainless steel range?
> 
> Reason for asking is, that a friend of mine is going to HK and could buy me one, and I am pending back and forth between 1102 and 1112.
> 
> Do you have any great recommendations, guys? Again, forgive me for this passus about Dunlop and CCK!



1812 is a stainless cleaver. According to http://www.chanchikee.com/ChineseKnives.html, 1812 is very similar to 1302/1303 in size, an in-betweener. I used to have 1111 at one point, a big slicer but gave it away to a Chef in Melbourne.

The other cleaver from the article, I am pretty sure, it is the same one as one in her "Every grain of rice" book. Guessing 1911 with all scratches from sharpening/thining.

If you want 11xx, perhaps 1103 is a good choice. It will be full carbon which will sharpen up easily, and it won't be too big. Patina and reactivity is normal, I think. It won't be that different to other carbon steel knives apart from area of exposure.


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## Kamelion

schanop said:


> 1812 is a stainless cleaver. According to http://www.chanchikee.com/ChineseKnives.html, 1812 is very similar to 1302/1303 in size, an in-betweener. I used to have 1111 at one point, a big slicer but gave it away to a Chef in Melbourne.
> 
> The other cleaver from the article, I am pretty sure, it is the same one as one in her "Every grain of rice" book. Guessing 1911 with all scratches from sharpening/thining.
> 
> If you want 11xx, perhaps 1103 is a good choice. It will be full carbon which will sharpen up easily, and it won't be too big. Patina and reactivity is normal, I think. It won't be that different to other carbon steel knives apart from area of exposure.



Many thanks! Seems plausible, with the 1911. And that knife is indeed stainless, isnt it?! This would also make sense given the scratch- and sharpening marks, but no patina. Given that I have bigger hands, and that I know the size of the 13xx series, I thought that the 11x could be an equivalent. Closest would be 111x then. I have two carbon steel knifes, see above, and even if i like them, the reactivity can to times be a bit cumbersome, and since Fuchsia seems to use the stainless, I took it as a go 

So, do you know how stainless the CCK stainless series are? Or which steel alloy? Etc. Sometimes also the stainless have a fairly amount, of carbon, therefore being a good compromise (sometimes also, the carbon knifes are not very reactive, of course), but if the are really hard to sharpen, maybe I will give it another thought.


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## Kamelion

XooMG said:


> I recommend doing several wipedowns with oil, a decent wash with soapy water, and a few more oily cloth rubdowns to see how much you can take off. Much of it is likely grinding dust.



Helped a little bit; after washing with soap, the paper towel didnt collect much black when wiping dry. However, when rubbing it in with oil, it again turned really black, so the stuff seems to be fat soluble. Now, how hard should I rub? I mean, probably it wont kill mi, on the other hand, I dont want to much of it in my food


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## XooMG

I'd lay the blade flat and just go at it pretty harshly. The worst that might happen is that the black finish will deteriorate, but that'd happen anyway. The loose stuff for me has always been tenacious in rougher finished blades, but I can usually get it to calm down after a while.


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## Noodle Soup

Noodle Soup said:


> you are luckier than me. I ordered two cleavers off the Chinese link on these posts over a couple of months ago and have not received them. The website said I needed to wait until Aug. 13th to file a claim. Well, guess what it is Aug. 13th. The original order said 10-15 days (back in June) and all my attempts at tracking say "in route for delivery"



Just an update. My cleavers showed up after about 3 and a half months. Nothing wrong with the knives but that sure is slow delivery. And I have my copy of "Fish and Rice" so I need to start cooking!


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## schanop

Noodle Soup said:


> Just an update. My cleavers showed up after about 3 and a half months. Nothing wrong with the knives but that sure is slow delivery. And I have my copy of "Fish and Rice" so I need to start cooking!



Congrats, Noodle Soup on both knife and book. I think "The land of fish and rice" is very nice. At the moment, only about half way through the book reading. Soon induction wok hob will be installed in my kitchen, replacing one of the two gas hobs I currently have. More fire power to the wok.



Kamelion said:


> Many thanks! Seems plausible, with the 1911. And that knife is indeed stainless, isnt it?! This would also make sense given the scratch- and sharpening marks, but no patina. Given that I have bigger hands, and that I know the size of the 13xx series, I thought that the 11x could be an equivalent. Closest would be 111x then. I have two carbon steel knifes, see above, and even if i like them, the reactivity can to times be a bit cumbersome, and since Fuchsia seems to use the stainless, I took it as a go
> 
> So, do you know how stainless the CCK stainless series are? Or which steel alloy? Etc. Sometimes also the stainless have a fairly amount, of carbon, therefore being a good compromise (sometimes also, the carbon knifes are not very reactive, of course), but if the are really hard to sharpen, maybe I will give it another thought.



Sorry, I missed your post last month. CCK stainless is just an ordinary stainless knife, nothing special. It sharpened all right from memory, but can't be compared to carbon Chinese made cleaver for which good ones would be sharper and easier to sharpen.

If you are keen on Cleaver and have budget, I would recommend giving Japanese made Chuka a try. For a small stainless cleaver, Sugimoto 4030 should be a very good choice. For a full size stainless, Mizuno (via JCK for example) has been receiving a good praised on forums. Tadatsuna Inox would be a good choice too, but probably can't be obtained. Hattori (JCK) might be a good choice, if you like the handle. For a bit cheaper option, Suien VG-10 (JCK) does look good, and Kagayaki VG-1 looks all right too.

Xoomg might have other cheaper Taiwanese made recommendations.

Personally, I really like Heiji Semi-Stainless chukka that I have for non carbon option, just make sure don't get a standard wa handle version like I did. It was a bit too small to be comfortable. A larger wa handle like those in Moritaka and Takeda are fine though.


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## KitchenNewbie

I was very stoked by the rave reviews of Dazu knives so I got the following from a different brand.

Bone Chopper
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/113422851151042580549/album/6441252656046737633/6441252652769743490?authkey=CODZiInRt_P2Ow

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/113422851151042580549/album/6441252656046737633/6441252654724269346?authkey=CODZiInRt_P2Ow


Slicer
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/113422851151042580549/album/6441252656046737633/6441252653440007954?authkey=CODZiInRt_P2Ow


Poultry Chopper
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/113422851151042580549/album/6441252656046737633/6441252653735817458?authkey=CODZiInRt_P2Ow


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## KitchenNewbie

QUOTE=Kamelion;431956]So dear forumers,

today the postman arrived with my knife. Unpacked, and quickly inspected it looks nice. I will post pictures tomorrow. 

One question though: when washing away the (machine) oil from the factory, protecting the blade from rust, i noticed that my dish brush became black from the black lacquer (or whatever it is). Afterwards i gave it a quick wipe with mineral oil to further prevent rust, and the paper turned really black, and it seems, I can continue wipe more black stuff off. 

This layer also smells somewhat smokey, as in a smithery, which is nice, but I wonder: what is this, and do I want it in my food?





[/QUOTE]



I used a lot of dish soap and a scouring pad to remove the loose bits of the black oxide. In fact I over done it in a few places and left scratch marks.


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## Noodle Soup

Watch the rust. I didn't exactly put mine up dirty and wet but I turned my back and it ended up with heavy rust patches and deep pits. None around the edge so it isn't the end of the world. I was just surprised how that much rust could accumulate so fast.


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