# Best blacksmiths for blue #2 heavy workhorses



## shinyunggyun (Aug 26, 2021)

Besides the obvious like kato, shig, Toyama, and Watanabe, what other smiths produce some really good heavyweight workhorse gyutos made of blue #2?


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## FishmanDE (Aug 26, 2021)

I can’t think of anyone who has them readily available, but I think isasmedjan has made some in the past


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 26, 2021)

Never used it but how about Mazaki blue 2?


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## IsoJ (Aug 26, 2021)

The9 and Tansu/HVB comes to mind


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## Jason183 (Aug 26, 2021)

Watanabe/Toyama?

Oh nvm, you already mentioned it.


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## tcmx3 (Aug 26, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> Besides the obvious like kato, shig, Toyama, and Watanabe, what other smiths produce some really good heavyweight workhorse gyutos made of blue #2?



if you can stand the ugly finish and pointy profile, tbh I actually do think Mazaki is the spiritual successor to Kato's workhorse knives. much more so than the current stainless clad Toyamas, at least IMO. and I think as far as such things go, the blue 2 Mazakis are still reasonably priced.

does it have to be specifically blue 2? if not buy a Shi.Han 52100 IMO. if it does, the Mazaki Ao2 would be choice 1 not on your list.


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## shinyunggyun (Aug 26, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> if you can stand the ugly finish and pointy profile, tbh I actually do think Mazaki is the spiritual successor to Kato's workhorse knives. much more so than the current stainless clad Toyamas, at least IMO. and I think as far as such things go, the blue 2 Mazakis are still reasonably priced.
> 
> does it have to be specifically blue 2? if not buy a Shi.Han 52100 IMO. if it does, the Mazaki Ao2 would be choice 1 not on your list.


Nah, I'm not a fan of mazaki.


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## tcmx3 (Aug 26, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> Nah, I'm not a fan of mazaki.



I mean that's certainly your prerogative.

this just reflects what I own and like. if Kato's didnt cost what they did, I mean still my favorite knife. just a shame the prices are completely divorced from the quality of the knife.


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## silylanjie (Aug 26, 2021)

I know Itsuo Doi does really nice Blue #2 single bevel knives like yanagiba and kiritsuke. I know he also makes gyuto but not sure how good his double bevels are. Just throwing another name out there for thoughts.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Aug 26, 2021)

I've got one of the Doi 240 gyutos from ToGo with the KS-ish profile. I like it.

I've also got a Gihei Blue #2 240. I like it too.

These might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I can honestly say that I don't feel the need for any more workhorse knives.


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## refcast (Aug 26, 2021)

Ikenami


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## daniel_il (Aug 26, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> I've got one of the Doi 240 gyutos from ToGo with the KS-ish profile. I like it.
> 
> I've also got a Gihei Blue #2 240. I like it too.
> 
> These might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I can honestly say that I don't feel the need for any more workhorse knives.



I like my Gihei....very solid, great steal , only wish for higher tip

also got 240 Matsubara which is very tall(58mm) but fairly thin behind the edge...not sure if its a pure "workhorse"


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## captaincaed (Aug 26, 2021)

When I talked to Rob at The.9nine, his opinion was 1.2519 was nearly indistinguishable from Blue 2 in practice. Maybe worth checking out western makers using it? If you're set on Blue steel, Murata makes a Blue 1 that I find easy to sharpen and deburr, and has thicker grinds. Only up to 210 for gyuto though.

Edit: Oh, Bazes has has made workhorse Blue 2 gyuto in the past. This one is pretty short, but he's done classic sizes too. Chef (215mm) — Bazes Blades


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## FishmanDE (Aug 26, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> I've got one of the Doi 240 gyutos from ToGo with the KS-ish profile. I like it.
> 
> I've also got a Gihei Blue #2 240. I like it too.
> 
> These might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I can honestly say that I don't feel the need for any more workhorse knives.



how could I forget Gihei! Yea, this has been my favorite steel I’ve used thus far. If you’re into the profile, I’d definitely pull the trigger


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## tostadas (Aug 26, 2021)

Joe of Halcyon Forge also did some work with aogami. Not sure if it was #2


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## GorillaGrunt (Aug 26, 2021)

Hitohira Togashi KU, I heartily recommend that one. Also heard good things about Gihei but haven’t used a Blue from them. Anything forged in Tosa will likely take whatever you throw at it and there are some less expensive offerings from there, but the grinds might not be as refined as some others. If you’re willing to look at other steels, Kemadi alongside Shihan and HVB.


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## Gjackson98 (Aug 26, 2021)

Is there a specific reason why Blue#2? Would you consider Blue#1?


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## McMan (Aug 26, 2021)

I have a Matsubara in blue#2 that I've been liking lately. Tall knife, heavy, forged hollow high up the blade face, decent value at $240 from cktg.
I like the looks of Gihei, but haven't tried one.


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## shinyunggyun (Aug 26, 2021)

Gjackson98 said:


> Is there a specific reason why Blue#2? Would you consider Blue#1?


Wear resistance and less brittle than blue #1. I prefer blue #1 for my lightweight gyutos and yanagis.


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## MrHiggins (Aug 26, 2021)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Hitohira Togashi KU, I heartily recommend that one.



I'm really impressed by mine. Great workhorse in blue 2. Highly recommended.

However, if I could keep only one blue 2 workhorse, it would be my Toyama 270.


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## TokushuKnife (Aug 27, 2021)

silylanjie said:


> I know Itsuo Doi does really nice Blue #2 single bevel knives like yanagiba and kiritsuke. I know he also makes gyuto but not sure how good his double bevels are. Just throwing another name out there for thoughts.



The double bevels from Doi are definitely a workhorse grind!


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## Ochazuke (Aug 27, 2021)

refcast said:


> Ikenami


I've used Ikenami Hamono. They're relatively close to where my fam is in Okinawa. I liked the steel - it's fairly tough, but there was a pretty decent overgrind. It didn't affect performance, so it was no problem for me. But if somebody cares about fit and finish, just know that they are fairly bare bones and may have the occasional overgrind.


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## silylanjie (Aug 27, 2021)

Ochazuke said:


> I've used Ikenami Hamono. They're relatively close to where my fam is in Okinawa. I liked the steel - it's fairly tough, but there was a pretty decent overgrind. It didn't affect performance, so it was no problem for me. But if somebody cares about fit and finish, just know that they are fairly bare bones and may have the occasional overgrind.


Thanks for sharing your feedback, I have been looking at Ikenami knives from knifejapan but haven't heard much about them.


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## daniel_il (Aug 27, 2021)

McMan said:


> I have a Matsubara in blue#2 that I've been liking lately. Tall knife, heavy, forged hollow high up the blade face, decent value at $240 from cktg.
> I like the looks of Gihei, but haven't tried one.



My gihei is a 210, so unfortunately not the best comparison but it’s much more robust than the matsubara. 

My matsu is a mid weight and fairly thin behind the edge. 2.5mm spine through most of the knife.


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## QCDawg (Aug 28, 2021)

It’s shirogami… but . The newest batch of Kaeru WH.. are so thick at the spine? You will wonder if you bought a wa handled yo deba. It’s thickkkk


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## spaceconvoy (Aug 28, 2021)

Here's my Doi... workrhino perhaps? Steel is excellent though


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## GorillaGrunt (Aug 28, 2021)

Is that the KS Doi or the one on Carbon?


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## spaceconvoy (Aug 28, 2021)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Is that the KS Doi or the one on Carbon?


The KS from the evil empire


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## bahamaroot (Aug 28, 2021)

It's funny how many of you shop CKTG given how much you love to hate on them.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Aug 28, 2021)

bahamaroot said:


> It's funny how many of you shop CKTG given how much you love to hate on them.



I still haven't had a bad experience with them.


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## tcmx3 (Aug 28, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> I still haven't had a bad experience with them.



I mean it's not so much that you get a bad experience, it's just very middling compared to some of the other dealers.

like my "bad" experience there was I had to return a fujiyama that had clearly not been looked at before going out. that's not the experience you get from some of the recommended dealers around here, but hey I returned the knife and all was well hence the quotes.


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## spaceconvoy (Aug 28, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> I still haven't had a bad experience with them.


Never a bad customer experience either, to be clear. I say it with tongue firmly in cheek, more of a winking reference to how this forum treats them like Voldermort He Who Shall Not Be Named.

But as someone who was present for The Falling Out a decade ago, they are kinda evil. I still shop at Amazon too, cause the world is kinda evil and we're all just trying to survive. I can't afford to be so pious.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 28, 2021)

I just looked at my CKTG account and realized I have spent $3500 (nothing more than $600 tho) there but never had any problem with them. They ship today or next day (sorry JNS) and ship free (sorry Strata and Korin, and most Japanese vendors) and package well. They accepts exchange/return without a problem (sorry all the Japanese vendors with whom you might lose a lot from the 2-way shipping). They respond emails/messages pretty fast (sorry again JNS). They have good rates and they don't charge sales tax (sorry MTC). They are my preferred vendor along with KnS NY. I have no problem with ordering again from all mentioned vendors though.


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## LostHighway (Aug 28, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> I mean it's not so much that you get a bad experience, it's just very middling compared to some of the other dealers.
> 
> like my "bad" experience there was I had to return a fujiyama that had clearly not been looked at before going out. that's not the experience you get from some of the recommended dealers around here, but hey I returned the knife and all was well hence the quotes.



That reflects my experience as well - received a knife with a not huge but very visible chip. Save for maybe the ten or twelve people most active on their forums I don't think they look at the knives before shipping at all, whether you insert a request for specific qualities/measurements or not. On the plus side they ship promptly, have a fairly wide selection, and occasionally there are some legit deals.

Edit: I should note that they were fairly unapologetic about the chip. They noted that it would sharpen out in the first one or two complete sharpenings (true enough but it was a new knife) or if I didn't want to do it they would it sharpen it out but I'd pay for shipping to them. No replacement offered.


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## Jason183 (Aug 28, 2021)

Only bad experience at CKTG is my Takamura chromax’s spine and choil isn’t rounded when they promised me to rounded it up for me. It’s not really a big issue, I ended up rounding them myself with sandpaper, quite easy. Other than that, I spend around 2k at CKTG, and all have been good experience, no delays issues even during pandemic.


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## M1k3 (Aug 28, 2021)

QCDawg said:


> It’s shirogami… but . The newest batch of Kaeru WH.. are so thick at the spine? You will wonder if you bought a wa handled yo deba. It’s thickkkk


Right?

Heiji on the left, Kaeru WH on the right.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 28, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Right?
> 
> Heiji on the left, Kaeru WH on the right.View attachment 139798


Oh wow. What's weight of the Kaeru? Does it power through everything under it?


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## M1k3 (Aug 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Oh wow. What's weight of the Kaeru? Does it power through everything under it?


311g originally. I flooded the tang slot with beeswax after USPS decided the handle needed to be knocked off and the tip poking through the knife box. It powered through most things. Needed a little encouraging from the offhand to get through whole fennel bulbs and the like.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 28, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> 311g originally. I flooded the tang slot with beeswax after USPS decided the handle needed to be knocked off and the tip poking through the knife box. It powered through most things. Needed a little encouraging from the offhand to get through whole fennel bulbs and the like.


Wow. It must be a fun knife. The Takamura 210 yo deba is about 330g.


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## M1k3 (Aug 28, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Wow. It must be a fun knife. The Takamura 210 yo deba is about 330g.


It is, except for my works counters are slightly to tall for the knife (56mm heel height). Making it a bit of pain for my wrist. Purely push cutting I'm fine. But any kind of rocking and it gets uncomfortable.


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## Jovidah (Aug 28, 2021)

At what point do workhorses get so thick that you're back to square one and basically have a Wüsthof with a kanji on it?


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## tcmx3 (Aug 28, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> At what point do workhorses get so thick that you're back to square one and basically have a Wüsthof with a kanji on it?


 
my Tsourkan workhorse is by far the beefiest Japanese style knife Ive ever owned but it's still quite considerably thinner BTE. I think if you are looking for the experience you brought up though there are a lot "tactical" or at least tactically themed kitchen knives on IG by makers who are... I mean Im not going to call them bad because they are doing a thing and may even be doing it well, but that thing is not cutting well.


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## M1k3 (Aug 28, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> my Tsourkan workhorse is by far the beefiest Japanese style knife Ive ever owned but it's still quite considerably thinner BTE. I think if you are looking for the experience you brought up though there are a lot "tactical" or at least tactically themed kitchen knives on IG by makers who are... I mean Im not going to call them bad because they are doing a thing and may even be doing it well, but that thing is not cutting well.


I think you meant "tacti-cool"?


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## M1k3 (Aug 28, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> At what point do workhorses get so thick that you're back to square one and basically have a Wüsthof with a kanji on it?


When the edge looks like a Deba, not just the spine?


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## shinyunggyun (Sep 2, 2021)

Even with the 10 percent sale that jns is having, I couldn't pull the trigger for an 800 usd knife. So I went with the only other heavy looking blue #2 gyuto I could find. Got this from knifemerchant for 520. They call this a homurra seiyo.


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## shinyunggyun (Sep 2, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> Even with the 10 percent sale that jns is having, I couldn't pull the trigger for an 800 usd knife. So I went with the only other heavy looking blue #2 gyuto I could find. Got this from knifemerchant for 520. They call this a homurra seiyo.


Oh, and the 800 dollar knife I am talking about is the Toyama Damascus 240mm gyuto. I know that what I got may not be anything close to the knife that is Toyama, but whatever.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 2, 2021)

Read wrong edited


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## RockyBasel (Sep 3, 2021)

The Toyama is a very expensive but desirable knife. The Damascus is superb 

But I really like the looks of what @shinyunggyun posted - very toyamaesque


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## RockyBasel (Sep 3, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> Even with the 10 percent sale that jns is having, I couldn't pull the trigger for an 800 usd knife. So I went with the only other heavy looking blue #2 gyuto I could find. Got this from knifemerchant for 520. They call this a homurra seiyo.



How is this knife in action?


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## shinyunggyun (Sep 3, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> How is this knife in action?


It's very good. Never disappoints. But then again, it is the only knife of it's weight class that I have used. I wouldn't be able to tell you how it would compare to a Toyama.


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## daniel_il (Sep 4, 2021)

Got this baby today, can’t wait trying it. 247 grams feels super solid, and the handle much nicer then the basic ho wood


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## FishmanDE (Sep 4, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> Got this baby today, can’t wait trying it. 247 grams feels super solid, and the handle much nicer then the basic ho wood
> View attachment 140860



Was that the one on Arizona customs that was $375 the other day? Looks great


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## daniel_il (Sep 4, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> Was that the one on Arizona customs that was $375 the other day? Looks great


yes its was listed on Arizona customs for 495$, they accept my 445$ bid. now they have another one listed for the same price. I believe the 375$ have the basic handle and its sold out.


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## kpham12 (Sep 4, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> Got this baby today, can’t wait trying it. 247 grams feels super solid, and the handle much nicer then the basic ho wood
> View attachment 140860



Nice! 247 grams is pretty heavy for a stainless clad 240 Wat. Is the handle on the heavier side?


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## daniel_il (Sep 4, 2021)

kpham12 said:


> Nice! 247 grams is pretty heavy for a stainless clad 240 Wat. Is the handle on the heavier side?



this honduras rose octagon surly adds an easy 30 grams over the ho wood, so it might be a trade-off. for me its still on the money for a pinch grip.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 5, 2021)

Do Toyama / Watanabe fall under "heavyweight workhorse"?


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## shinyunggyun (Sep 5, 2021)

josemartinlopez said:


> Do Toyama / Watanabe fall under "heavyweight workhorse"?


Yes. And so does kato


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 5, 2021)

Not sure, my Kato WH 240 is about 20g heavier (and the spine at the heel is much thicker) than the equivalent Toyama and Watanabe.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 5, 2021)

From what I've seen over the years I wouldn't assume Watanabes or Toyamas are very consistent. Watanabe in particular seems to have the biggest variation in weight of any other brand.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 5, 2021)

My Toyama dammy is 248 gram with burnt chestnut handle. About 10 gram heavier than my Kato WH Ktip with the same handle.


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## josemartinlopez (Sep 5, 2021)

My Toyama 240 damascus (with stock handle) had about the same weight as my Kato WH 240, so I did not use the damascus as the point of reference. 

I thought more recent Toyama and Watanabe offerings are more middleweight than heavy.


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## kpham12 (Sep 5, 2021)

josemartinlopez said:


> Do Toyama / Watanabe fall under "heavyweight workhorse"?


One of my early knives was a stainless clad 240mm Wat that was about 210 g and so nail flexing thin behind the edge, it was scary. Then I got an iron-clad Toyama from @Hz_zzzzzz that was 222 g and a little thicker behind the edge and in the midsection, but a little less thick out of the handle. And I just picked up an iron clad Wat from 2011 that’s about 252 g and it’s a monster. The iron clad Wat would definitely qualify as heavyweight, the Toyama a little less so and the stainless clad Wat, I would hesitate to call “heavy” even though the spine is relatively thick.

If you go to past BST threads or new knife posts, you can see a crazy amount of variation in Wats and Toyamas over the years, like @spaceconvoy said. Although the trend seems to be them getting lighter and thinner as time passes.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 5, 2021)

I also let go of a Kurouchi Iron clad Wat 240 which was 270 gram. That’s absolutely a beast. The SS clad Wat I let go was also 210 gram. The dammy toyama I currently keep is about perfect to me in terms of weight and balance. My point is if you want you can find your perfect heavier Toyama/Watanabe.


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## shinyunggyun (Sep 6, 2021)

You guys make me not want a Toyama gyuto anymore after hearing about all of these inconsistencies in weight.


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## tcmx3 (Sep 6, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> You guys make me not want a Toyama gyuto anymore after hearing about all of these inconsistencies in weight.



that's your loss mate.

just call the vendor and ask what they have in stock and if they have one that suits go for if not oh well.

the one thing that's constant is Toyamas all cut really well.


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## shinyunggyun (Sep 6, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> that's your loss mate.
> 
> just call the vendor and ask what they have in stock and if they have one that suits go for if not oh well.
> 
> the one thing that's constant is Toyamas all cut really well.


I think I'll live with that


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## kpham12 (Sep 6, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> You guys make me not want a Toyama gyuto anymore after hearing about all of these inconsistencies in weight.



It’s not inconsistencies, the weights of Toyamas have just changed over the years. If you order a Toyama now, the stainless clad or the Damascus, it will be roughly whatever weight the vendor, usually JNS, has listed.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 6, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> I think I'll live with that


It's quite consistent from what I've seen. Most ss-clad toyama in recent years are between 205-215 gram. Most damascus toyama in recent years are between 220 and 240 gram. The range of iron clad could be a little larger because it's no longer available and what you see is variations over a decade. Many makers have changed a lot in recent years.

Most importantly all the toyanabe I've handled are good cutters. I don't have that type of confidence in every maker.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 7, 2021)

Agree with all that has been said. think that there maybe a 10% variation in weight - whether that is inconsistent or not is in the eye of the beholder

Since this is a “one by one” hand made by a 75 year old master craftsman, some variation is to be expected and desirable

For eg - my first 270 Damascus was 290, and my second one was 261

My first 240 Damascus was 220 and second was 205

So roughly a 10% difference

As has been said already, the grind and cutting ability is exceptional. 

It has a different feel and experience than other Japanese knives due partly to specs. 

Most Japanese knives have heel heights in the 49-52 range. My 270 toyama heel height is 61 and for the 240 it’s 56-57. This is a knife with substantial presence and it makes it, for me, a go to knife.


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## shinyunggyun (Sep 7, 2021)

Well if the Toyama is a middleweight like most people here are saying, then I don't need a Toyama. I already have the migoto blue #1, which is an absolutely remarkable middleweight knife that I don't see getting topped by anything of its weight class anytime soon.


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## tomsch (Sep 7, 2021)

My Tsourkan 240mm WH is my heavy hitter and seems to hold an amazing edge with the 52100 steel. Hard to find for sure but I was able to pick one up on the forum here.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 7, 2021)

The Tanaka blue 1 and Toyama blue 2 are very different knives. I have both. Not the Migoto, but the JNS Tanaka blue 1 and the Tanaka-Yohei blue 1. Also have the Tanaka made Kono FM in blue 1, and the Kaiju blue 1, but let’s keep those out of the consideration for now

The toyoma is more of a heavyweight as compared to the Tanaka - which is thinner.

One big difference is the heel height - Toyama is 55-56mm

Tanaka is 50-51mm

That gives the knife a different feel and cutting experience as the Toyama blade is bigger and has far more substantial steel. I also think the weight is also influenced by the handle. Toyama used basic ho wood, but it’s weight could be heavier depending upon the type of handle being used on the Tanaka in comparison

I love my Tanaka blue 1’s. But Toyama is a different knife


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## captaincaed (Sep 7, 2021)

My kochi 270 and 240 are only 7g apart but definitely feel like the same knife, just longer. The weight varies a bit (I would guess especially with forged knives), but I do really trust the makers to so their thing and do it well. Unless some really obvious issue crops up over time.


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## LostHighway (Sep 7, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> My kochi 270 and 240 are only 7g apart but definitely feel like the same knife, just longer. The weight varies a bit (I would guess especially with forged knives), but I do really trust the makers to so their thing and do it well. Unless some really obvious issue crops up over time.



Which Kochi? Aren't the migaki aogami versions supposed to be the most workhorse-y? I've never touched one but I think @ian has.


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## tcmx3 (Sep 7, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> Well if the Toyama is a middleweight like most people here are saying, then I don't need a Toyama. I already have the migoto blue #1, which is an absolutely remarkable middleweight knife that I don't see getting topped by anything of its weight class anytime soon.



I mean you dont need any knife because you already have a perfectly fine one.

But you're talking two very distinct styles.

Im not here to sell you on Toyama or anything it's a fine knife and yes I do own one but I wouldnt lose sleep over it if it's not calling your name.

If youre looking to have zero overlap I hate to tell you this but you really only need a single gyuto, period. Most of us are just buying and selling stuff because it's fun tbh.


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## Jovidah (Sep 7, 2021)

If we only bought what we really need all of us would have stopped at a cheap Victorinox set.


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## shinyunggyun (Sep 7, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> I mean you dont need any knife because you already have a perfectly fine one.
> 
> But you're talking two very distinct styles.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100 percent


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 7, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> If we only bought what we really need all of us would have stopped at a cheap Victorinox set.


I'll probably just get a single Vic 8" chef's knife instead of a set. Or a Mercer M21020 Chinese chef's knife (cleaver). Maybe plus a Mac black honing steel and a shapton pro 1000.


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## ian (Sep 7, 2021)

LostHighway said:


> Which Kochi? Aren't the migaki aogami versions supposed to be the most workhorse-y? I've never touched one but I think @ian has.



I only touched one once at JKI. They seemed more workhorsey to me then, but who knows. I never actually owned one.


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## captaincaed (Sep 7, 2021)

LostHighway said:


> Which Kochi? Aren't the migaki aogami versions supposed to be the most workhorse-y? I've never touched one but I think @ian has.


All the KU, quite thin bte


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 7, 2021)

Speaking of Kochi, anyone used Wakui's blue 2? It looks quite workhorsey to me for a 210. Not sure why they don't have 240. Toshihiro Wakui Kurouchi Nashiji Blue #2 Gyuto 210mm Ebony Handle


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## tcmx3 (Sep 7, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> All the KU, quite thin bte



to be fair though, workhorse is more about thick spines and significant convexing from tall grinds. at least to my understanding.

my kato workhorse is very thin BTE, whereas my Tsourkan is way thicker, but both probably qualify as workhorses. 

also it's not blue 2 but these days Im really favoring Shi.Han for this sort of thing. well north of 200g weights, great grinds, steel feels good on the stones and has immense bite. OP wants blue 2... I think 52100 doesnt lose anything compared to blue 2 but that's just me.


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## MrHiggins (Sep 7, 2021)

I've owned a 240 iron clad Toyama, a 270 iron clad Toyama, a 240 blue 2 Kochi, a 270 blue 2 Kochi, a 240 V2 Kochi, and a 210 V2 Kochi. From most workhorse to least workhorse, my samples would range from:
Toyama 270
Toyama 240
Kochi blue 2 240
Kochi V2 240
Kochi blue 2 270
Kochi V2 210

The Toyamas just feel solid, and, like Rocky said, are tall, which adds to the workhorse designation. The steel is indestructible.

I really liked my Kochi blue 2 240, but the 270 was a bit too light (they were both roughly the same weight, despite the 270 being longer and taller). They're convex ground.

I love the V2 versions, but they're not workhorses. They're concave ground, with shinogi.

I still own my Toyama 270 and it ain't going anywhere. I wish I still had my Kochi blue 2 240. The rest I'm okay without.


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## MrHiggins (Sep 7, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> also it's not blue 2 but these days Im really favoring Shi.Han for this sort of thing. well north of 200g weights, great grinds, steel feels good on the stones and has immense bite. OP wants blue 2... I think 52100 doesnt lose anything compared to blue 2 but that's just me.



Yep. If I had to choose one knife to keep, it would probably be my Shihan in 52100. (Probably, but please don't make me choose!)


----------



## tcmx3 (Sep 8, 2021)

MrHiggins said:


> Yep. If I had to choose one knife to keep, it would probably be my Shihan in 52100. (Probably, but please don't make me choose!)



well you know, I have 3 of his knives  

he's absolutely killing it.

SS Toyama isnt that far behind IMO, but then you either have to live with ho or spend even more to get a new handle put on it. really cant go wrong with either though.


----------



## captaincaed (Sep 8, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> to be fair though, workhorse is more about thick spines and significant convexing from tall grinds. at least to my understanding.


For sure, just a comment about weights. Sounds like @MrHiggiMr had a similar pair, maybe intentional. Mine have had convex blade roads, FWIW


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 8, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> The toyoma is more of a heavyweight as compared to the Tanaka - which is thinner.
> 
> One big difference is the heel height - Toyama is 55-56mm
> 
> ...


Y Tanaka 240mm is also actually a 225mm, adding to the lighter feel


----------



## stringer (Sep 8, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> to be fair though, workhorse is more about thick spines and significant convexing from tall grinds. at least to my understanding.
> 
> my kato workhorse is very thin BTE, whereas my Tsourkan is way thicker, but both probably qualify as workhorses.
> 
> also it's not blue 2 but these days Im really favoring Shi.Han for this sort of thing. well north of 200g weights, great grinds, steel feels good on the stones and has immense bite. OP wants blue 2... I think 52100 doesnt lose anything compared to blue 2 but that's just me.



I have a Watanabe 270. It is not a workhorse to me. It's too thin and delicate behind the edge to be an all rounder. Veggie slayer, sure. I love it but my Shi.Han is the reigning workhorse champion of my home knife drawer. Still capable of taking an extremely fine edge but not so sensitive as the Wat to being a little careless with your technique or chopping up that semi-frozen pork butt. The 52100 holds the edge too and touches up very easy. The 52100 mono with kurouchi looks good and never rusts and takes a really nice patina over time. My Wat is pretty reactive every time I do have to sharpen it. Turns into a rust bomb for a few weeks. I haven't tried most of the other knives on this thread but I've held most of them. Shi.han handles fit me like a glove. I do wish he didn't make the necks so long though. It's incompatible with my pinch grip and gets uncomfortable if I'm chopping very large quantities of something slippery. The Wat handle isn't as comfortable but is better at handling a bunch of summer squash slime.


----------



## Cliff (Sep 8, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> Also have the Tanaka made Kono FM in blue 1, and the Kaiju blue 1, but let’s keep those out of the consideration for now



Could you bring the Kaiju back into discussion? I'm curious how that compares. I thought that was more in the mold of Watanabe, in terms of weight and grind.

I'm late to this..., but, I have iron clad Wats, stainless Toyama, and a couple of versions of Y Tanaka (but not Kaiju). The latter really strike me as different beasts: beautiful, perfect in their way, but lighter and thinner than what I would consider a workhorse. Even my relatively new-ish iron-clad Wat is on the delicate side, for me. My iron-clad 270 Wat, on the other hand, is an absolute beast.


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 11, 2021)

tomsch said:


> My Tsourkan 240mm WH is my heavy hitter and seems to hold an amazing edge with the 52100 steel. Hard to find for sure but I was able to pick one up on the forum here.





Cliff said:


> Could you bring the Kaiju back into discussion? I'm curious how that compares. I thought that was more in the mold of Watanabe, in terms of weight and grind.
> 
> I'm late to this..., but, I have iron clad Wats, stainless Toyama, and a couple of versions of Y Tanaka (but not Kaiju). The latter really strike me as different beasts: beautiful, perfect in their way, but lighter and thinner than what I would consider a workhorse. Even my relatively new-ish iron-clad Wat is on the delicate side, for me. My iron-clad 270 Wat, on the other hand, is an absolute beast.


The Kaiju blue 1 is spectacular. Absolutely perfect fit and finish - the Kasumi and polished edge is a marvel. So aesthetically incredible. Cutting performance is up there with the best. Thicker and heavier than the Kono FM blue 1. Different animal -‘higher spine as well

it’s too refined and gorgeous to be called a WH - even though at 227 gm, it falls around the weight category of WH

it’s wonderful and rare, so I use it less, while the Toyama, I use every chance i get


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 11, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> Cutting performance isn’t up there with the best.


Typo? How does its performance compare with Toyama's?



RockyBasel said:


> even though at 227 gm, it falls around the weight category of WH


The handles on that Kaijus look heavy which might have added some 20 gram weights.


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 11, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Typo? How does its performance compare with Toyama's?
> 
> 
> The handles on that Kaijus look heavy which might have added some 20 gram weights.


----------



## Cliff (Sep 11, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> The Kaiju blue 1 is spectacular. Absolutely perfect fit and finish - the Kasumi and polished edge is a marvel. So aesthetically incredible. Cutting performance isn’t up there with the best. Thicker and heavier than the Kono FM blue 1. Different animal -‘higher spine as well
> 
> it’s too refined and gorgeous to be called a WH - even though at 227 gm, it falls around the weight category of WH
> 
> it’s wonderful and rare, so I use it less, while the Toyama, I use every chance i get



Thanks for this. At 227 gm, it's roughly comparable to recent vintages of Watanabe and Toyama. If it's an ebony handle, that might skew things a bit as well.


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 11, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Typo? How does its performance compare with Toyama's?
> 
> 
> The handles on that Kaijus look heavy which might have added some 20 gram weights.


That was a Typo for sure! Kaiju is an amazing performer


----------



## deskjockey (Sep 14, 2021)

How does the Gihei Blue #2 Gyuto fit into the mix or workhorse knives? Or put another way, if you had $200~$250USD for a workhorse, what would you get and why.

I get the knives mainly being talked about are probably a good step up in overall quality but, $400+USD knives are out of reach for many people.


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 14, 2021)

If you can spend $40 more, and have 4 months of Patience, I would consider Heiji - I love the semi-stainless but the carbon Heiji is fantastic as well, but quite reactive 

it’s a world class knife


----------



## deskjockey (Sep 14, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> If you can spend $40 more, and have 4 months of Patience, I would consider Heiji - I love the semi-stainless but the carbon Heiji is fantastic as well, but quite reactive
> 
> it’s a world class knife



What does Heiji give me the Gihei doesn't?

How would you compare the semi-stainless (assume it is a D2 variant) versus his carbon (assume it is blue #2)? Do I give up anything meaningful by going Semi-Stainless? I'm assuming the Blue #2 will deal with impact stress better but, also realize grind profile and edge geometry matter most. So, do both have the same edge geometry and overall grind profile?

I'm not in a professional kitchen where ultimate edge-holding matters most. Chipping or rolling an edge is the most likely place of concern other than rust resistance (I don't want super reactive but, I also don't need SU-405 clad VG-10 either ).

I want/need something for hard Sweet Potatoes, really cold Carrots, and similar kitchen hazards to my IKAZUCHI 240MM.

I'm thinking either a 210mm or a 240mm Gyuto. What are the popular options, if any, with these knives? So, is a 210mm Gyuto ~$240 and 240mm ~$290? Would a 270mm Gyuto be too heavy to be practical in a home kitchen against large hard squash?

TIA,
Sid


----------



## daniel_il (Sep 14, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> How does the Gihei Blue #2 Gyuto fit into the mix or workhorse knives? Or put another way, if you had $200~$250USD for a workhorse, what would you get and why.
> 
> I get the knives mainly being talked about are probably a good step up in overall quality but, $400+USD knives are out of reach for many people.



i got gihei 210 & watanabe 240 and toyama petty.

The gihei is a very robust knife with good steel and f&f. Nice nashiji and basic but good quality magnolia handle. They are bit shorter and flatter than the watanabe.

my 240 watanabe have a very nice upgraded handle but the basic ho wood is terrible (base on my toyama petty). The steel is exceptionally good and hard and i love the balance point. This have a thinner edge compare to gihei.

I don’t think the gihei will disappoint you as a workhorse.


----------



## daveb (Sep 14, 2021)

For the best carbon workhorse, lose the blue requirement and line up for a Marko....


----------



## kpham12 (Sep 14, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> What does Heiji give me the Gihei doesn't?
> 
> How would you compare the semi-stainless (assume it is a D2 variant) versus his carbon (assume it is blue #2)? Do I give up anything meaningful by going Semi-Stainless? I'm assuming the Blue #2 will deal with impact stress better but, also realize grind profile and edge geometry matter most. So, do both have the same edge geometry and overall grind profile?
> 
> ...


Both Heiji and Gihei are nice workhorses, but are both very similar wide bevel grinds with hard shoulders. The Gihei will have a bigger flat spot and usually a lower tip. Heiji profiles can vary a little depending on what you ask for, but usually, they look a bit like a sword. Both the semistainless from Heiji and blue 2 from Gihei are nice to sharpen and have great edge retention, especially for home use. The semi stainless has a reputation for being a little brittle, not a problem if you don’t abuse it.

What does Heiji give you that Gihei doesn’t?

In my opinion, Heijis look a little nicer while Gihei has that sandblasted finish on the wide bevel that goes above the bevel and looks a little “meh”, although you can probably fix this with some sandpaper or something. Aesthetics aside, both have similar grinds, are in a similar weight range and it’s all up to personal preference. Although Gihei is readily available while Heiji requires direct order and a roughly 4 month wait.

The main thing is you seem to be looking for a heavier workhorse knife that will cut sweet potatoes, big carrots, squash and other similar hard dense foods like an Ikazuchi. In this case, both the Heiji and Gihei are pretty much the opposite of what you want. The Heiji is beloved by many on this forum, myself included, but they are well known to not be optimal performers on hard dense foods and the Gihei falls in a similar vein. They will wedge and require a lot more force than a laser like the Ikazuchi.

Of the knives discussed in this thread, a Watanabe or Toyama stainless seems to fit your needs very well. A blue 2 knife with some nice weight to it that will cut dense foods pretty effortlessly. But they will run you a little over $400. If you’re looking for a knife with some workhorse weight that will deal with dense foods like a laser, maybe start a recommendation thread, because they can be hard to find in the $200-250 range.


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

No one answered the "Is Wakui B#2 good/workhorse/whatever what?"

So after pouting for a while, decided to leave the routine story. The illness story.

Once upon a time, a KKF member promised himself not to buy iron clads anymore. He broke that promise since... twice.

Not so long after, the same KKF member decided he wanted a good, real good, petty. But it seems either ideal does not exist, or exists at prohibitive prices.

See this PERFECT example:









Myojin Riki Seisakusho SG2 Kasumi Petty 165mm Wenge Handle


This line of knives are sharpened by a talented young sharpener, Naohito Myojin, who is also responsible for producing a long time fan-favourite, 'Fujiyama' series from Konosuke company. These stunningly finished knives are perfect for pragmatists looking for a high performing blade with a...




www.toshoknifearts.com





That's a weapon of ignobly petty mass destruction. Ignoble because the price is just "Hell with it man I can buy a rather high end 240mm Gyuto for the money". But where money would be no object, that knife would be in that KKF member's arsenal. But he still ain't got a real good petty despite buying a few knives. He DID buy those iron clads he wasn't supposed to buy anymore, though.

If not that, that member wanted to invest on some stones. A replacement Cerax 320 and Ouka, SG4K, SP120 & 220, Morihei 6K, JNS 300 and 800, a coarse Nanohone, the "real" King 4K, King 8K Gold, possibly some cheap coarse green SiC stone to see how it compares with Sigma... or if that, an expensive Debado for the same reasons. And he did buy the Pink Brick out of a deal, but none the others yet.

And tonight, he decided to grab a third iron clad with Ai & Om Wakui B#2... GYUTO! Just because NO ONE ANSWERED HERE. And he still doesn't have a petty!

And while there, he did decide to grab the Nanohone 200. One never has too much coarse stones. Unless you have more coarse stones than knives. This narrator here thinks it's good long term policy to own one coarse stone for every knife in someone's collection. It makes up for all the ****** knives f&f will bring you, gives you experience with different stuff, and vanishes pretty fast anyhow. So for sure, narrator agrees with here concerned KKF member, even if that Nanohone is most probably too expensive for what it is.  Stupid, stupid KKF member, but narrator gets the gist and doesn't judge.

And in guise of morale, narrator here asks what the **** is wrong with that guy?

Narrator wants to accuse any other KKF member that did not answered the question of having pushed our (z)(h)ero KKF member into indiscriminating purchases. But in the end, he knows the guy is a lost cause anyhow.

Narrator is a cunning arse. He sure does want to see that poor guy's usual review about knives he unwittingly buys out of kicks... breaking his promise for a third time!

Plus a replacement folder for the one he lost. Which was probably the only one out of three items he _really_ needed.

"Ahem... good effort...?"


----------



## deskjockey (Sep 14, 2021)

kpham12 said:


> Both Heiji and Gihei are nice workhorses, but are both very similar wide bevel grinds with hard shoulders. The Gihei will have a bigger flat spot and usually a lower tip. Heiji profiles can vary a little depending on what you ask for, but usually, they look a bit like a sword. Both the semistainless from Heiji and blue 2 from Gihei are nice to sharpen and have great edge retention, especially for home use. The semi stainless has a reputation for being a little brittle, not a problem if you don’t abuse it.
> 
> What does Heiji give you that Gihei doesn’t?
> 
> ...



I was thinking a workhorse Gyuto, not a Yo-Deba or similar double-sided knife, would cut versus split a hard squash or similar. 

A thin lightweight laser of a knife seems counter-intuitive to me as I would think the edge could be damaged and a lot of force on the thin profile would be likely to cause other problems.

That being said, I have gotten tired of a German Chef's knife smashing hard veg and cracking it on occasion. I really want to cut hard veg and not pound it with a clubby wedge.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 14, 2021)

If someone is looking for a knife for dense foods, doesn't have a huge budget, can use a yo/western handle and doesn't need bigger than 210mm, I'd grab a Takamura Chromax and and cut straight up and down.

Or some other thin and not completely flat ground knife.


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> If someone is looking for a knife for dense foods, doesn't have a huge budget, can use a yo/western handle and doesn't need bigger than 210mm, I'd grab a Takamura Chromax and and cut straight up and down.



I bow to your skills if you CAN cut straight up AND down. 

#fastmotherfooker #dirtyprokitchentricks #stillleavetheknifeouttheM1k3rowave


----------



## daniel_il (Sep 14, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> No one answered the "Is Wakui B#2 good/workhorse/whatever what?"
> 
> So after pouting for a while, decided to leave the routine story. The illness story.
> 
> ...


 
i have a rule for not buying iron clad after my last mazaki.

So i will wait for that petty review


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> i have a rule for not buying iron clad after my last mazaki.
> 
> So i will wait for that petty review



You’re evil.

Edit: and while it will be a petty review - like I’m going to be an ******* to Wakui - it’s still the Gyuto I purchased.

Ahem… the KKF member purchased. And will review. I’m the buyer… shite… narrator.


----------



## daniel_il (Sep 14, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> I was thinking a workhorse Gyuto, not a Yo-Deba or similar double-sided knife, would cut versus split a hard squash or similar.
> 
> A thin lightweight laser of a knife seems counter-intuitive to me as I would think the edge could be damaged and a lot of force on the thin profile would be likely to cause other problems.
> 
> That being said, I have gotten tired of a German Chef's knife smashing hard veg and cracking it on occasion. I really want to cut hard veg and not pound it with a clubby wedge.



my gihei doesn’t wedge too badly. The toyama is thin almost as my s.tanaka ginsan or HD2.

clearly the gihei is a very beefy knife but the steel takes a great edge, unlike german stainless..


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 14, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> I bow to your skills if you CAN cut straight up AND down.
> 
> #fastmotherfooker #dirtyprokitchentricks #stillleavetheknifeouttheM1k3rowave


I'm amazed by those that manage to twist a knife enough while cutting to chip it.

# #yUtwist


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I'm amazed by those that manage to twist a knife enough while cutting to chip it.
> 
> # #yUtwist



Doesn’t happen to me, but I’m still bowing to one that CAN cut straight down AND up. 

That’s 180* twisting as you go. Wicked.


----------



## daniel_il (Sep 14, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> You’re evil.



rules are made to be broken

until you post this, didn’t intended to break my “too expensive for a petty rule”

now I’m starting doing my research on it


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> rules are made to be broken
> 
> until you post this, didn’t intended to break my “too expensive for a petty rule”
> 
> now I’m starting doing my research on it



Take the Myojin... PLEASE.

I updated that reply and now the first post. Not a petty... but please break your bank on a good one and report!


----------



## daniel_il (Sep 14, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Take the Myojin... PLEASE.
> 
> I updated that reply and now the first post. Not a petty... but please break your bank on a good one and report!



tojiro dp is the best i ever needed 

I bought the toyama petty last month..not sure if it’s costly enough for a review


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

It's perfect review stuff on the contrary. It's in my top 5.


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> It's perfect review stuff on the contrary. It's in my top 5.



And it is Blue #2. You're really evil.

D'you play chess?


----------



## deskjockey (Sep 14, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> my gihei doesn’t wedge too badly. The toyama is thin almost as my s.tanaka ginsan or HD2.
> 
> clearly the gihei is a very beefy knife but the steel takes a great edge, unlike german stainless..



Sounds like it or the Heiji would be a good option for me with that comment. The Gyuto should have a shallower profile and be less wedgy which is what I am looking for. Plus I like the lower tip of a Gyuto or French Chef's knife. 

My current Chef's knife is pretty wide behind the edge which is the main problem I think I'm seeing with splitting my hard vegtables.


----------



## Infrared (Sep 14, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> I was thinking a workhorse Gyuto, not a Yo-Deba or similar double-sided knife, would cut versus split a hard squash or similar.
> 
> A thin lightweight laser of a knife seems counter-intuitive to me as I would think the edge could be damaged and a lot of force on the thin profile would be likely to cause other problems.
> 
> That being said, I have gotten tired of a German Chef's knife smashing hard veg and cracking it on occasion. I really want to cut hard veg and not pound it with a clubby wedge.



Have you considered a nakiri like this one?









Nojiyama Marunaka Kurouchi Nakiri 240mm Stainless Tang


Free worldwide shipping. Aogami#2 nakiri knife from Nakamura Hamono and Knife Japan. Visit to see our extensive selection of handcrafted Japanese knives.




knifejapan.com





They are perfect for tall and dense products.


----------



## daniel_il (Sep 14, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> And it is Blue #2. You're really evil.
> 
> D'you play chess?



I’ve watched the queen’s gambit

edit: RSK and cutting edge have the myojin for a better price


----------



## deskjockey (Sep 14, 2021)

Infrared said:


> Have you considered a nakiri like this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a 165mm Nakiri in Aus-8 I think. It is too thin and light for hard vegetables. Heck, it is a pain to use on those skinny carrots straight from the fridge.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 14, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Doesn’t happen to me, but I’m still bowing to one that CAN cut straight down AND up.
> 
> That’s 180* twisting as you go. Wicked.


----------



## Infrared (Sep 14, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> I have a 165mm Nakiri in Aus-8 I think. It is too thin and light for hard vegetables. Heck, it is a pain to use on those skinny carrots straight from the fridge.



A knife generally needs to be thin to be able to cut dense products (like carrots) without wedging. That is why your German Chef's knives struggle.

That being said, the nakiri I linked is heavier than most 240mm gyutos. It should be plenty durable.


----------



## kpham12 (Sep 14, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> I was thinking a workhorse Gyuto, not a Yo-Deba or similar double-sided knife, would cut versus split a hard squash or similar.
> 
> A thin lightweight laser of a knife seems counter-intuitive to me as I would think the edge could be damaged and a lot of force on the thin profile would be likely to cause other problems.
> 
> That being said, I have gotten tired of a German Chef's knife smashing hard veg and cracking it on occasion. I really want to cut hard veg and not pound it with a clubby wedge.


Who said anything about a yo-deba?

Thin knives work very well on hard, dense product as long as you don’t twist or torque the knife, avoid any hard roots/stems, etc.

You mentioned wanting a workhorse that can cut carrots, sweet potato, squash, etc without wedging. More “workhorse” type gyutos I can think of off the top of my head that can cut dense foods well tend to be $300+ though and you mentioned you were looking for something in the $200-250 range. You can consider a middleweight like a Shigeki Tanaka or a maybe a well priced Yoshikane that has a bit of a stiffer spine and a little more weight than a laser like the Ikazuchi, but will still cut dense foods well.

All I’m saying is don’t buy a Heiji or Gihei and expect them to be drastically less wedgy or to crack less in tall, hard food than a German chefs knife.


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

M1k3 said:


>



Indeed... Thought you might like it but you didn't. What can I say...? 

Except I do not chip thin knives. I got one Tak from BST that came to me chipped though. Listed that way, no harsh feelings. Nothing SG500 wouldn't handle in a couple swipes I believe but it still cut well and I sold it that way - openly still. Mostly chopping and pull cutting with that one. Didn't chip it further on the existing chips or elsewhere. Guessing chips didn't came from use, but kitchen sink most likely culprit. They had that impact area closeness to them - proving nothing but giving me a feeling.


----------



## ModRQC (Sep 14, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> I’ve watched the queen’s gambit
> 
> edit: RSK and cutting edge have the myojin for a better price



At first glance they would, but add CAD exchange, shipping, customs and Tosho isn't so off.

But in my book, that's like twice too expensive anyhow. 200-250$ CAD is my spending limit on a less than 180mm and 40mm high blade. Just not worth it for my use.

Just not worth it anyhow so I HAVE to set a limit.

Edit: was all set to buy that Mutsumi AS 135mm petty with A&O when I stumbled on the Wakui... 









Mutsumi Blue Super Kurouchi Nashiji Petty 135mm Ebony Handle


Brand: Mutsumi Hinoura 日野浦 睦Producing Area: Sanjo-Niigata/ JapanProfile: PettySize: 135mmSteel Type: Carbon SteelSteel: Blue Super Steel, Soft Stainless CladHandle: Ebony Pakka FerruleTotal Length: 272mmEdge Length: 143mmHandle to Tip Length: 156mmBlade Height: 38mmThickness: 4.00mmHandle...




www.aiandomknives.com





Someone SHOULD grab that Hinoura too!


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 14, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> I was thinking a workhorse Gyuto, not a Yo-Deba or similar double-sided knife, would cut versus split a hard squash or similar.
> 
> A thin lightweight laser of a knife seems counter-intuitive to me as I would think the edge could be damaged and a lot of force on the thin profile would be likely to cause other problems.
> 
> That being said, I have gotten tired of a German Chef's knife smashing hard veg and cracking it on occasion. I really want to cut hard veg and not pound it with a clubby wedge.


Have you ever considered something like a CCK 1303? It's 250-270 gram so not too light, and it's thin enough for dense hard veg.


----------



## deskjockey (Sep 14, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Have you ever considered something like a CCK 1303? It's 250-270 gram so not too light, and it's thin enough for dense hard veg.



How about a Sugimoto CM-4030? That makes me wonder about that cleaver.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 14, 2021)

Workhorse that can cut dense foods with ease?

Yoshikane
Gengetsu


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 14, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> How about a Sugimoto CM-4030? That makes me wonder about that cleaver.


Never had one but 4030 looks thicker and smaller. maybe too small Imo.


----------



## captaincaed (Sep 15, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Workhorse that can cut dense foods with ease?
> 
> Yoshikane
> Gengetsu


Kochi and wakui are also on the thin side of workhorse, big favorites


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 15, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Kochi and wakui are also on the thin side of workhorse, big favorites


Ok, let's just say Yoshikane and makers that previously worked for them and knife lines that oddly resemble, maybe coincidentally, them.


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2021)

If it’s dense foods, why not a Nakiri? Plenty of good ones around for reasonable prices


----------



## daniel_il (Sep 15, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> How about a Sugimoto CM-4030? That makes me wonder about that cleaver.



i think it will be easier to decide first about the knife shape.

for me, i like gyuto best and a Chinese cleaver as second option. for about 200-250usd range i would go for s. tanaka nashiji ginsan(also available with blue 2#), it think its the most balanced knife it terms of geometry, thinness, steel, height and price. in this range there are many nice knives. matsubara blue 2# is also a nice knife but very tall, kanehiro line is nice but fairly thin and light. gihei is nice but extreme workhorse so you might considers something less hefty.


----------



## daniel_il (Sep 15, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> At first glance they would, but add CAD exchange, shipping, customs and Tosho isn't so off.
> 
> But in my book, that's like twice too expensive anyhow. 200-250$ CAD is my spending limit on a less than 180mm and 40mm high blade. Just not worth it for my use.
> 
> ...



yeah i forgot about this extra costs for Canada residents

I'm thinking of going next with Mutsumi AS 240 gyuto and ashi 180 petty


----------



## deskjockey (Sep 15, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Workhorse that can cut dense foods with ease?
> 
> Yoshikane
> Gengetsu



I have looked at both of those over the years. I'm not sure why but, I have always been attracted to the Gengetsu however, the Yoshikane is one I have actually come close to buying more than once. The Yoshikane options are certainly more budget-friendly and carry high praise from many around this forum too.

While I like the polished sides of something like the Gengetsu, today I have a soft spot for attractive hammer dimples like I see in various places on the Yoshikane knives.


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## deskjockey (Sep 15, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Kochi and wakui are also on the thin side of workhorse, big favorites



I guess I should check them out and add them to the mix.


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## deskjockey (Sep 15, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Kochi and wakui are also on the thin side of workhorse, big favorites





M1k3 said:


> Ok, let's just say Yoshikane and makers that previously worked for them and knife lines that oddly resemble, maybe coincidentally, them.



That region of Japan seems to have the blade profile that I'm looking for.


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## deskjockey (Sep 15, 2021)

In terms of the overall blade profile, I have mixed feelings regarding the Nakiri overall along with Chinese cleavers. I'm pretty strongly inclined to stick with a Gyuto. Like a Santoku, they seem more versatile and I have a hard time seeing a large Nakiri getting a lot of use, being essentially a unitasker in my kitchen. In a home kitchen, a Gyuto and/or a Santoku is hard to beat IMHO.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Sep 15, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> I was thinking a workhorse Gyuto, not a Yo-Deba or similar double-sided knife, would cut versus split a hard squash or similar.
> 
> A thin lightweight laser of a knife seems counter-intuitive to me as I would think the edge could be damaged and a lot of force on the thin profile would be likely to cause other problems.
> 
> That being said, I have gotten tired of a German Chef's knife smashing hard veg and cracking it on occasion. I really want to cut hard veg and not pound it with a clubby wedge.



I have a Gihei Blue 240.

I don't use it for squash or sweet potatoes, I use a laser instead.

It's easier.


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## captaincaed (Sep 15, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> In terms of the overall blade profile, I have mixed feelings regarding the Nakiri overall along with Chinese cleavers. I'm pretty strongly inclined to stick with a Gyuto. Like a Santoku, they seem more versatile and I have a hard time seeing a large Nakiri getting a lot of use, being essentially a unitasker in my kitchen. In a home kitchen, a Gyuto and/or a Santoku is hard to beat IMHO.


Square knives are for squares. Go with Gyuto, 2021.


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## OkLobster (Sep 15, 2021)

This is somewhat contradictory in nature but what would fit the mold of a workhorse able to cut through dense foods with ease whilst having top quality F&F? The Kaiju sort of comes to mind to me as a novice albeit those are unicorns.


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## deskjockey (Sep 15, 2021)

OkLobster said:


> This is somewhat contradictory in nature but what would fit the mold of a workhorse able to cut through dense foods with ease whilst having top quality F&F? The Kaiju sort of comes to mind to me as a novice albeit those are unicorns.



Certainly a novice in this regard but, the issue with my German Chef's knife is that it gets too thick too fast to cut all the way through something like a large cold carrot. A knife with a wide bevel would reach deeper into the carrot to cut before the thickness of the blade started wedging it apart.

This suggests a really thin blade is best but, a "workhorse" blade that was thin or tapered or convexed would approximate this thinness deep enough to cut through a hard food item in your kitchen.

There aren't any absolutes to me but, lots of subjectives like how hard or firm is the item being cut, how tall or thick the item being cut is, then there is blade height and spine thickness with the overall grind profile, ...


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> Certainly a novice in this regard but, the issue with my German Chef's knife is that it gets too thick too fast to cut all the way through something like a large cold carrot. A knife with a wide bevel would reach deeper into the carrot to cut before the thickness of the blade started wedging it apart.
> 
> This suggests a really thin blade is best but, a "workhorse" blade that was thin or tapered or convexed would approximate this thinness deep enough to cut through a hard food item in your kitchen.
> 
> There aren't any absolutes to me but, lots of subjectives like how hard or firm is the item being cut, how tall or thick the item being cut is, then there is blade height and spine thickness with the overall grind profile, ...


I just grabbed 2 6-cm tall carrots from my refrigerator and made these 2 videos for you. It tells you why I think Yoshikane and Toyama are my best cutters.

First one shows Takamura Chromax, Yoshikane SKD k-tip, Toyama dammy and Kato workhorse k-tip. These 4 are all some of my better carrot cutters.


The second one shows Takamura Chromax and Yoshikane SKD. I've been saying that Yoshikane is the ultimate version of lasers. Simply because it cuts more laserishly than all the traditional lasers I've tried including Takamura SG2/Chromax, Shibata AS/R2, Konosuke HD2/GS+, and Ikkanshi Tadatuna. And Yoshikane has more meat near the handle for better balance, more comfortable pinch grip and a bit more stiffness and more weight to help cutting.


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## kpham12 (Sep 15, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I just grabbed 2 6-cm tall carrots from my refrigerator and made these 2 videos for you. It tells you why I think Yoshikane and Toyama are my best cutters.
> 
> First one shows Takamura Chromax, Yoshikane SKD k-tip, Toyama dammy and Kato workhorse k-tip. These 4 are all some of my better carrot cutters.
> 
> ...



Whoo, the Damascus Toyama looks so nice.


P.S.
Please save some burnt chestnut handles for the rest of us.


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## daniel_il (Sep 15, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I just grabbed 2 6-cm tall carrots from my refrigerator and made these 2 videos for you. It tells you why I think Yoshikane and Toyama are my best cutters.
> 
> First one shows Takamura Chromax, Yoshikane SKD k-tip, Toyama dammy and Kato workhorse k-tip. These 4 are all some of my better carrot cutters.
> 
> ...




evil carrots  

western handle is takamura chromax?

agree about the yoshi being the best pure cutter, its also very flat and medium height(might be a pro\con). mine is the skd nashiji version which is thinner.

i can do a video if I can find carrots


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 15, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> evil carrots
> 
> western handle is takamura chromax?
> 
> ...


Yes the western handle is tamakura chromax. The K-tip Yoshis are surprisingly tall. My 210 K-tip Yoshi is 51 cm tall. A 240 k-tip could be taller I guess but I don't know for sure.  (55mm tall Yoshi https://www.thesharpcook.com/product/yoshikane-skd-nashiji-kiritsuke-240mm/) The front part of the Yoshi is just such a silent cutter.


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## tostadas (Sep 15, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I just grabbed 2 6-cm tall carrots from my refrigerator and made these 2 videos for you. It tells you why I think Yoshikane and Toyama are my best cutters.
> 
> First one shows Takamura Chromax, Yoshikane SKD k-tip, Toyama dammy and Kato workhorse k-tip. These 4 are all some of my better carrot cutters.
> 
> ...




The measurements I took of my Yoshikane match with these observations. The bevels are much more flat ground compared to "lasers" like the Kono HD2 or the Takamura R2. The Kono and Takamura had more of a convex right-handed grind.

Kono HD2 and Takamura R2 thickness behind the edge of
0.25mm/0.6mm/0.95mm (@1mm/5mm/10mm)

Yoshikane SKD
0.2mm/0.45mm/0.85mm (@1mm/5mm/10mm). It also tapers even thinner as you get toward the front.


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## daniel_il (Sep 15, 2021)

Candidates:
Tanaka ginsan 
Yoshi skd
Hd2
Gihei
Watanabe 

the watanabe is just too much fun


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## deskjockey (Sep 15, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I just grabbed 2 6-cm tall carrots from my refrigerator and made these 2 videos for you. It tells you why I think Yoshikane and Toyama are my best cutters.
> 
> First one shows Takamura Chromax, Yoshikane SKD k-tip, Toyama dammy and Kato workhorse k-tip. These 4 are all some of my better carrot cutters.
> 
> The second one shows Takamura Chromax and Yoshikane SKD. I've been saying that Yoshikane is the ultimate version of lasers. Simply because it cuts more laserishly than all the traditional lasers I've tried including Takamura SG2/Chromax, Shibata AS/R2, Konosuke HD2/GS+, and Ikkanshi Tadatuna. And Yoshikane has more meat near the handle for better balance, more comfortable pinch grip and a bit more stiffness and more weight to help cutting.



 Super helpful videos! 

That Yoshikane SKD looks and sounds really impressive. I'm also concerned that first video may have me searching Toyama options to the detriment of my finances!


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## daniel_il (Sep 15, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Yes the western handle is tamakura chromax. The K-tip Yoshis are surprisingly tall. My 210 K-tip Yoshi is 51 cm tall. A 240 k-tip could be taller I guess but I don't know for sure.  (55mm tall Yoshi https://www.thesharpcook.com/product/yoshikane-skd-nashiji-kiritsuke-240mm/) The front part of the Yoshi is just such a silent cutter.


 
damn 55mm tall sounds sexy

mine is 50.5


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## captaincaed (Sep 15, 2021)

@Hz_zzzzzz where the devil do you find those carrots?


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## deskjockey (Sep 15, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> Candidates:
> Tanaka ginsan
> Yoshi skd
> Hd2
> ...



How would you compare and contrast the differences in your knives?

Tanaka ginsan
Yoshi skd
Hd2
Gihei 
Watanabe
That Gihei looked better than I expected.


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## Renzwerkz (Sep 15, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> Besides the obvious like kato, shig, Toyama, and Watanabe, what other smiths produce some really good heavyweight workhorse gyutos made of blue #2?



Have you have a look or try Gihei..? It fits the profile that u mentioned, workhorse made of blue #2..


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## daniel_il (Sep 15, 2021)

deskjockey said:


> How would you compare and contrast the differences in your knives?
> 
> Tanaka ginsan
> Yoshi skd
> ...



Actually I forgot how good is the gihei, i didn't used it for a long time. after some stropping it became very sharp, and f&f is nothing fancy but spot on. i will give it more use in the following days, but it doesn't wedge for me although my carrots are that evil. i did cut some Brunoise and it preform very good.


Tanaka ginsan - really like it for being tall(53mm), very good stainless, solid feel at 195gsm. almost a laser but feel more robust. profile is kind of unique with big sweep to the tip. very well balanced knife. best VFM?
Yoshi skd - best cutter, very flat knife, and maybe perfect f&f, skd steel almost a full stainless and easy to sharpen. on the other hand as a daily driver i prefer the feel of a more solid knife.
Hd2 - second best cutter by small margin. very good steel doesn't patina at all, takes a great very easy, feels very solid for a laser. not a fancy knife but very effective, was my pick for going into a pro kitchen.
Gihei - this feels like a tank, very flat and low tip(remind me a santoku), very good HT on the steel. 
Watanabe - only got this a couple of weeks ago. steel is really special-super hard and toothy edge, 250gsm of joy. this thing is a unique beast. its just force through everything.
i would say the watanabe is my fav but its matter of taste. 

also got gyutos from anryu, kono fujiyama, takeda and matsubara but i think they are less relevant to this case.


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## RockyBasel (Sep 15, 2021)

Watanabe = Toyama = toyamanabe = watayoma


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## RockyBasel (Sep 17, 2021)

I just looked at my specs for the Togashi-tosa blue 2 Gyuto I have and it meets workhorse criteria;

260x 55 mm heel
291 gm

This one is a beauty!


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## MrHiggins (Sep 17, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> I just looked at my specs for the Togashi-tosa blue 2 Gyuto I have and it meets workhorse criteria;
> 
> 260x 55 mm heel
> 291 gm
> ...


Photos or it didn't happen...


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## RockyBasel (Sep 18, 2021)

Here are the photos of the Togashi-Tosa, blue 2 iron clad WH
291 gm - specs are above


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## Pointless1 (Sep 18, 2021)

I will buy this.


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## shinyunggyun (Aug 9, 2022)

The knife that I’ve ben askren for.


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## RockyBasel (Aug 9, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> The knife that I’ve ben askren for.


Toyama or Tanaka - I would guess Toyama as it’s heavy B2


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 9, 2022)

RockyBasel said:


> Toyama or Tanaka - I would guess Toyama as it’s heavy B2


Seems like a Wakui from JNS.


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## RockyBasel (Aug 9, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Seems like a Wakui from JNS.


Ahh… forgot those - some really nice looking knives


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## Cliff (Aug 9, 2022)

They seem to be replacing the old Watoyamas of yore. Wish that B2 was a basic Kasumi or Kurouchi though.


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## EricEricEric (Aug 9, 2022)

Manaka Hamono


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## superworrier (Aug 9, 2022)

Blue 1 and not blue 2, but this fits the characteristics and is more of a true workhorse convex grind 









Migoto Blue 1 Suminagashi Gyuto 255mm


Hitachi Blue #1 core laminated with soft iron damascus, forged by Satoshi Nakagawa. Grind and finish are done by Kawakita Hamono. A modern take on a Sakai made workhorse style gyuto.




migotocutlery.com


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## captaincaed (Aug 10, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> The knife that I’ve ben askren for.


Jorge Masvidal asks you to get out of the pun business


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## blokey (Aug 10, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Seems like a Wakui from JNS.


Talking about Wakui, Kochi would also a nice choice, their Migaki is B#2, the KU is V2, still very nice steel.


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## captaincaed (Aug 10, 2022)

The Kochi KU is awful thin. I’ve owned 4, would not call them workhorses. Yoshi-like grind. 
From what I’ve seen, Wakui migaki is mid-weight, more robust.


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## kpham12 (Aug 10, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> The knife that I’ve ben askren for.


You get to test it out yet? How does it compare to Toyama?


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## timebard (Aug 10, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> The Kochi KU is awful thin. I’ve owned 4, would not call them workhorses. Yoshi-like grind.
> From what I’ve seen, Wakui migaki is mid-weight, more robust.


My Wakui migaki was 177g, Kochi is 185g (both 240s). Wouldn't call either a workhorse though the Kochi is a pretty sturdy all-arounder.


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## ian (Aug 10, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> The Kochi KU is awful thin. I’ve owned 4, would not call them workhorses. Yoshi-like grind.



Maybe just Yoshi-like in terms of thinness behind the edge? In general I think of Yoshikane grinds as a nicely done subtle and thin convex, whereas Kochi KU is concave (IIRC?) with a shinogi. Or maybe there are Yoshikanes with grinds I haven’t seen.


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## shinyunggyun (Aug 10, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> You get to test it out yet? How does it compare to Toyama?


The Wakui seiryu is just a THICC, super heavy workhorse. Nothing special about it. It might be too heavy actually. I prefer using my shi.han 52100 over it. This and Toyama are completely different. Toyama is more of an all rounder. Closer to a kochi migaki.


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## captaincaed (Aug 10, 2022)

ian said:


> Maybe just Yoshi-like in terms of thinness behind the edge? In general I think of Yoshikane grinds as a nicely done subtle and thin convex, whereas Kochi KU is concave (IIRC?) with a shinogi. Or maybe there are Yoshikanes with grinds I haven’t seen.


I've heard the concave thing before. When I held a straight edge up to the blade road on mine, convex. Ymmv 
Maybe I need to check again.


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## ian (Aug 10, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> I've heard the concave thing before. When I held a straight edge up to the blade road on mine, convex. Ymmv
> Maybe I need to check again.



Well, if you have one, I trust you! I'm operating off memory.


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## GorillaGrunt (Aug 10, 2022)

RockyBasel said:


> Here are the photos of the Togashi-Tosa, blue 2 iron clad WH
> 291 gm - specs are above


where do i get this? I’ve seen one on BST, think it was Takayuki branded?


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## shinyunggyun (Aug 10, 2022)

GorillaGrunt said:


> where do i get this? I’ve seen one on BST, think it was Takayuki branded?


Japan-messer.de

But they only ship within Europe.

And not all of their togashi tosa blue #2 are thick heavy workhorses btw


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## kpham12 (Aug 10, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> The Wakui seiryu is just a THICC, super heavy workhorse. Nothing special about it. It might be too heavy actually. I prefer using my shi.han 52100 over it. This and Toyama are completely different. Toyama is more of an all rounder. Closer to a kochi migaki.


I recently got the Kaeru Wakui Workhorse which I think is similar grind to the Seiryu, but even thicker. I agree, both my Shihan and Watanabe/Toyama are both better all arounder knives.

I do think the Wakui workhorse is really well made. The grind is very even and the spine and choil are rounded really well. Obviously not great at every task, but cuts better than you would expect based on the specs. Not a knife I would recommend to someone unless they really liked thick spine, heavy WH style knives. I started thinning it and there’s absolutely no low spots on either side. Someone who is good at kasumi finishes and polishing would really enjoy it.

I never really thought about it before, but Wakui has got impressive range. He is supposedly just a one man workshop, but he does his migaki line and wide bevel knives, he does stainless clad, he does the Kaeru WH and Damascus/Seiryu and he makes those Kaeru honyakis and you rarely here any complaints about his knives.


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## M1k3 (Aug 10, 2022)

Kaeru WH and the Seiryu are basically Ryo-deba's in a more Wa Gyuto format.


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## Choppin (Aug 10, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> I do think the Wakui workhorse is really well made. The grind is very even and the spine and choil are rounded really well. Obviously not great at every task, but cuts better than you would expect based on the specs. Not a knife I would recommend to someone unless they really liked thick spine, heavy WH style knives. I started thinning it and there’s absolutely no low spots on either side. Someone who is good at kasumi finishes and polishing would really enjoy it.


I'm curious by the "no low spots" - is the Wakui WH a wide bevel knife, disguised by the sandblasted kasumi finish? I recently got the 210 and 240 and I had the impression they had a fully convex grind, but I might be wrong.

Also, the Seiryu you guys mentioned is from JNS? I really liked the specs from JNS's website but don't dig damascus... a kasumi/migaki version would be fantastic


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## kpham12 (Aug 10, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Kaeru WH and the Seiryu are basically Ryo-deba's in a more Wa Gyuto format.


I think it’s just a little thinner BTE and at the tip than a ryo-deba, but similar thickness along the spine and midsection. I would like to try and break down some fish with it, just to see how the steel holds up.


Choppin said:


> I'm curious by the "no low spots" - is the Wakui WH a wide bevel knife, disguised by the sandblasted kasumi finish? I recently got the 210 and 240 and I had the impression they had a fully convex grind, but I might be wrong.
> 
> Also, the Seiryu you guys mentioned is from JNS? I really liked the specs from JNS's website but don't dig damascus... a kasumi/migaki version would be fantastic


They are fully convex, but convex ground knives have low spots too. I’ve had 3 Watanabes and a Toyama, all with very consistent, nice grinds and all with low spots, some worse than others. My Shihan had a small one that came out really quickly. Pretty much every knife I’ve owned and thinned has had a low spot (or multiple). They don’t bother me unless they affect performance or maybe if they’re super big for some reason. I thinks it’s very rare for a knife not to have low spots unless you’re paying a lot for something that’s known to not have low spots or it’s hand finished on stones like Mazaki, Manaka, Jiro and a bunch of western/custom makers.

I’m like the 3rd owner of my Kaeru Wakui WH and it was starting to get a little thick BTE so I thinned it. The scratch pattern went about halfway up the face of the knife, higher near the tip, and I didn’t find a single low spot. I don’t think it’s a huge deal, just found it impressive.


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## enrico l (Aug 10, 2022)

I have a Hitohira Gorobei Rikichi Blue #2 gyuto and its a very nice knife. The grind is very generous and I don’t feel the need to baby it. F&F were very good as well.


This one 









Hitohira Gorobei Rikichi Blue #2 Kasumi Gyuto 240mm Cherry Wood Handle


Brand: Hitohira ひとひら (一片)Producing Area: Sakai-Osaka/ JapanProfile: GyutoSize: 240mmSteel Type: Carbon SteelSteel: Yasuki Blue (Aogami) #2, Soft Iron CladHandle: Cherry Wood & Ebony Ferrule OctagonalTotal Length: 387mmEdge Length: 226mmHandle to Tip Length: 244mmBlade Height: 51mmThickness...




carbonknifeco.com


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## hendrix (Aug 10, 2022)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I just looked at my CKTG account … and
> they don't charge sales….


No longer the case with CKTG. I noticed California sales tax on my invoice for a recent purchase. I questioned the sales tax and here was CKTG’s response: “_…However, in 2016 the Supreme Court ruled in South Dakota vs Wayfair, that that was no longer the case and required "remote" sellers like us to charge sales tax.”_


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## Choppin (Aug 10, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> I think it’s just a little thinner BTE and at the tip than a ryo-deba, but similar thickness along the spine and midsection. I would like to try and break down some fish with it, just to see how the steel holds up.
> 
> They are fully convex, but convex ground knives have low spots too. I’ve had 3 Watanabes and a Toyama, all with very consistent, nice grinds and all with low spots, some worse than others. My Shihan had a small one that came out really quickly. Pretty much every knife I’ve owned and thinned has had a low spot (or multiple). They don’t bother me unless they affect performance or maybe if they’re super big for some reason. I thinks it’s very rare for a knife not to have low spots unless you’re paying a lot for something that’s known to not have low spots or it’s hand finished on stones like Mazaki, Manaka, Jiro and a bunch of western/custom makers.
> 
> I’m like the 3rd owner of my Kaeru Wakui WH and it was starting to get a little thick BTE so I thinned it. The scratch pattern went about halfway up the face of the knife, higher near the tip, and I didn’t find a single low spot. I don’t think it’s a huge deal, just found it impressive.


Got it, and agree with you. I’ve thinned / polished some Toyamas and Shigs and they all had some minor low spots, usually near the tip and heel.


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## g-unit (Oct 4, 2022)

Has anyone here tried the Wakui workhorse sujihiki from JNS? It’s one of the heaviest sujis I’ve ever seen, but that might not be such a downside given the application.


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## TokushuKnife (Oct 4, 2022)

Doi Guren 225mmm Is an excellent workhorse featuring his insanely perfect heat treat. I feels like heaven on the stones!


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