# beds..



## akirapuff (Jun 17, 2016)

I have spent a fortune on tempurpedic mattresses, but they give me back pain.. Spring mattresses also give me back pain.. Some have suggested I sleep on a hard surface, so I am currently sleeping on the floor with a tri fold foam futon with decent comfort. But I would like to invest in a nice bed. Maybe I just havent found the right mattress for me, but does anyone have any recommendations? I would prefer towards a firm mattress.


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## MAS4T0 (Jun 17, 2016)

I had similar problems to you an slept on the floor for years. I now have a firm mattress which is pocket sprung with I think 3k individual pocketed springs across a UK King size mattress.

The increased number was key for me.

I got a great price because I bought it direct from the factory (it's about $3.5k retail and I think I paid less than $1k).

Another option is a tatami mat.


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## larrybard (Jun 17, 2016)

If you want to sleep on a more conventional bed, rather than on the floor, couldn't you, at a minimum, essentially replicate your current setup (which apparently works for you) by buying a bed and boxspring -- no need for a mattress -- and top the boxspring with a thick plywood board on which you place something like your foam futon?


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## MAS4T0 (Jun 17, 2016)

Something else.

I currently have a bed which has solid boards beneath the mattress (rather than slats) so there's no sag, and not only is the mattress firm, it's base is firm and stable.


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## bkultra (Jun 17, 2016)

Mattresses are very personal thing no one can tell you what would work best for you. You can start with research, but in the end hands-on experience will give you the most accurate information. The concept of sleeping on a hard surface to solve back pains is outdated and not always correct. You need to find the appropriate material and or mattress to align your spine correctly and relieve pressure points. This is often done with having a comfort layer(s) followed by a support core(s). Both support layers and cores come in varying materials, thickness, and firmness. The durability of the chosen material should also be considered. You can start your research here...

http://www.themattressunderground.com/

Edit: Latex (Both Dunlop and Talalay) comes in varying firmness (often listed as ILD) , can be built in differential (2 layers) or Progressive styles (3 plus layers). It's extremely durable but also one of the highest cost materials


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## gic (Jun 17, 2016)

I like the Novaform 14" Serafina Pearl Gel from Costco Online on a platform I built, and of course like all Costco products you can return it for a full refund if not happy!


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## boomchakabowwow (Jun 20, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> Something else.
> 
> I currently have a bed which has solid boards beneath the mattress (rather than slats) so there's no sag, and not only is the mattress firm, it's base is firm and stable.



i was told that a box spring is kinda like the shock aborbers of the mattress. if you go without, expect the mattress to wear out faster.

back to the OP. i can sleep on rocks or mush, so i let my wife choose the bed. she found the hardest Temperpedic. it is damn near solid. she loves it, and after i got used to the change..i'm out like a light.


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## akirapuff (Jun 22, 2016)

The mattressunderground.com was a good read thank you. I saw that alot of modern beds like the ghostbed etc has memory foam in the middle and latex on the top layer for springyness. That really makes sense to me. I like the way my tempurpedic aligns my spine, but I dont like the sinking feeling.. So I decided to order a latex topper and lay it on my tempurpedic mattress. Its an extra firm model so I think its going to work out. We will see..


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## MAS4T0 (Jun 22, 2016)

boomchakabowwow said:


> i was told that a box spring is kinda like the shock aborbers of the mattress. if you go without, expect the mattress to wear out faster.



I don't really see how that would work.

Are you meaning the material or the springs wear faster?

I can see an argument for the mattress springs lasting longer on a box spring, as without a firm base the compressive force applied to each spring would be lower (which would however reduce support). In either case the force applied should be well below the yield force of the spring, which would make creep and fatigue the main concerns; fatigue is down to cyclic loading so is dependant on usage and creep isn't something I'd be overly worried about.

A box spring greatly lessens the effective firmness of the mattress by adding an additional degree of freedom.

I personally have always felt the need to replace mattresses at the point where the soft materials are past their best and I've never noticed any wear to the springs. I'd expect that so long as the mattress is turned regularly, the wear to the foam, quilting, etc would be lessened by the solid base as there are no unsupported springs pushing against the underside and the mattress as a whole is not flexing.

I may be overthinking this.


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## krx927 (Jun 22, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> ...I now have a firm mattress which is pocket sprung ...



This is also working great for me!


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## boomchakabowwow (Jun 22, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I don't really see how that would work.
> 
> Are you meaning the material or the springs wear faster?
> 
> ...



yea..you might be over thinking it. i was just speaking hear-say. not gospel.


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## MAS4T0 (Jun 22, 2016)

boomchakabowwow said:


> i was just speaking hear-say.



How could you? Your an engineer too! :detective:

Surely you thought about it in a similar way (or you're not a real engineer)?! :scratchhead:


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## boomchakabowwow (Jun 23, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> How could you? Your an engineer too! :detective:
> 
> Surely you thought about it in a similar way (or you're not a real engineer)?! :scratchhead:



because it's a bed. i'm not breaking out Hooke's law, or thinking spring constants with a bed.
it's a bed. i flip my mattresses and rotate them. like a regular person.

i use a boxspring because i like my bed tall.


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## boomchakabowwow (Jun 23, 2016)

and i think a box spring lengthens number in front of that spring constant..

gah..now you have me thinking about spring constants !!!


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## MAS4T0 (Jun 23, 2016)

I'm sorry boom, I'm not sure if it was clear, but the "not a real engineer" comment was in jest. I hadn't really thought about it before either, but in hindsight I probably should have. I always had to move mattresses onto the floor at night in order to sleep properly (until I got a bed with a solid board beneath the mattress).

I'm just trying to give clarity to the OP.

If you go for a sprung mattress (rather than latex), the more springs (in a given area) the better. A solid base can still be used on a raised bed (as is the case with mine) but a solid base will ensure that you get the full benefit of the firmer mattress and it's not being undermined by a sloppy base. Using a box-spring is almost like placing a softer mattress on top of a firmer mattress. 

By using a box spring, you make it massively more complicated than simply applying Hooke's Law (as you're adding another degree of freedom) and any assessments of the firmness of the mattress (which you may have made in a store) become all but irrelevant as the firmness (or lack thereof) of the base is a huge factor.

You go from this (ignore the equation, that's specific to cyclic loading):







To this (ignore the equation, that's specific to cyclic loading):


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## Lucretia (Jun 24, 2016)

Ah, but when you remove the box springs you take away all those natural frequencies associated with a 2 DOF system. :whistling:


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## sachem allison (Jun 29, 2016)

Lucretia said:


> Ah, but when you remove the box springs you take away all those natural frequencies associated with a 2 DOF system. :whistling:



I love you. You know that right? Lol


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## MAS4T0 (Jun 29, 2016)

Lucretia said:


> Ah, but when you remove the box springs you take away all those natural frequencies associated with a 2 DOF system. :whistling:



That was a major part of the point I was making.

You don't want the second degree of freedom and the second fundamental frequency. We want support and stability, not vibration isolation...

But I don't doubt that you know much more about this than I do, vibration and control are by no means my specialty.

I'm genuinely curious though, is there a benefit in your mind from the second DOF in this application or were you just mocking me?


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## boomchakabowwow (Jun 29, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I'm genuinely curious though, is there a benefit in your mind from the second DOF in this application or were you just mocking me?



i think he is not mocking you..but mocking..err...hmm.. how do i put this delicately? "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" if i had to call it, he is joking about SEX. boom-chaka-bow-wow!!! when the bed becomes less of a sleeping furniture and more of a "work surface"


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## Lucretia (Jun 29, 2016)

sachem allison said:


> I love you. You know that right? Lol



You too, sweetie!


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## Lucretia (Jun 29, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I'm genuinely curious though, is there a benefit in your mind from the second DOF in this application or were you just mocking me?













boomchakabowwow said:


> i think he is not mocking you...



Neither is She.


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## Dardeau (Jun 29, 2016)

Foghorn leghorn may be mocking the both of you.


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## MAS4T0 (Jun 29, 2016)

boomchakabowwow said:


> i think he is not mocking you..but mocking..err...hmm.. how do i put this delicately? "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" if i had to call it, he is joking about SEX. boom-chaka-bow-wow!!! when the bed becomes less of a sleeping furniture and more of a "work surface"



:excuseme:


That went completely over my head. But I thought I'd ask because she's a real scientist. :angel2:


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## ptolemy (Jul 4, 2016)

I went through bed search process a few years ago. I also like/need firm surface, so after much of the research, i went with the simplest possible solution (not cheapest though)

I went with 4 layers of 3" dunlop all natural latex with 40+ idl for each layer. I also went with all natural custom mattress cover. Basic metal frame with middle 3 feet and wooden base, to which I added extra planks, to make sure distance between planks was inside 1", yet had plenty of air for circulation.

2 Years later, I still love it. I got mine from www.spindlemattress.com - they also sell the wooden base. They also manufacturer their own cover. The guy who owns it, his family been in mattress business for 60+ years, so they do it pretty well.


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## WingKKF (Jul 5, 2016)

You tend to get what you pay. Just as with knives, the springs require proper heat treatment to actually be good springs. A lot of cheaper mattresses sag and fail in this area because like cheap knives, they have crap steel for springs and/or don't heat treat them right. I have a McCroskey Airflex made pretty locally in San Francisco. Cost me some money more than ten years back and it still works like it does new. They make and heat treat the springs themselves.


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## akirapuff (Jul 8, 2016)

Ptolemy may i ask what material your custom covers are made of, and from where?


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## akirapuff (Jul 8, 2016)

I put 2inch dunlop latex topper at 30 ILD from sleeponlatex and love it


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## Phip (Jul 13, 2016)

This is an incredible thread. Thank you guys for getting me to think about this. I love mattress underground!


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## ptolemy (Jul 22, 2016)

akirapuff said:


> Ptolemy may i ask what material your custom covers are made of, and from where?




www.spindllemattress.com it's made of natural cotton and natural wool batting.


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## fujiyama (Aug 9, 2016)

Tough subject. It's hard to get unbiased reviews from people on mattresses.. I mean, how many new mattresses does a person buy in their lifetime? What are they comparing to?

Those who are fortunate enough to make these purchases more than once are few and far in between. 

With that said, it's a risk buying a mattress. Last month I decided enough was enough. I was sleeping on a 10 year old mattress that seen its day 7 years ago. A cheap, no support, sagging kind of mattress with springs digging into your back. Even the box spring was sagging, it turns out the wooden supports had cracked. 

So I settled on a firm Sealy mattress. Firm because I have a bad back and neck, but also in hopes to prolong the sagging issue mattresses have. This one doesn't have springs, so I won't have to worry about that feeling again. It's an Optimum Posturepedic Silver Oak. Which doesn't mean much to the average person because they make so many different names to confuse us. 

No review as of yet. Frankly anything is better than what I had. The price was very affordable for not being a 400$ special. 

In any event, I was scared to invest thousands on something they may not be worth it. I know how much of my life I spend in bed, so I agree you shouldn't worry about cost for this purchase. But unless you know what you want long term, how do you decide and justify?

So until I find out what I want, a sub 1k purchase was the ideal choice for me. Q


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 9, 2016)

I have a futon frame with wood slats. Rather thick firm futon with a pad that goes over it. Works for me. Had a tempur pad for a while got rid of it was too soft. I can sleep on the floor as long as have neck support. The Japanese buckwheat pillows are my favorite.


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## Ydj32 (Aug 20, 2016)

have you tried leesa or casper?


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## akirapuff (Sep 5, 2016)

casper is where i got the idea of putting a latex topper on top of my tempurpedic. working out great so far. fell in love with latex, also purchased a latex pillow and now no more neck pain.


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