# Toyama vs Kato



## LuisMendes (Dec 2, 2015)

Hello there !! I see on Toyama's reviews a lot of people saying that the "it's close to a Kato", and I've read a lot of them because I have one 240mm gyuto and did some research before buying. In fact, with this knife I understood what "Scary sharp" means.
For the sake of curiosity, does someone who used both Kato and Toyama Noborikoi can point out what are the similarities and differences between those two ? Btw... today JNS got some Katos and they disappeared faster than I could even open my email...


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## Asteger (Dec 2, 2015)

LuisMendes said:


> Hello there !! I see on Toyama's reviews a lot of people saying that the "it's close to a Kato", and I've read a lot of them because I have one 240mm gyuto and did some research before buying. In fact, with this knife I understood what "Scary sharp" means.
> For the sake of curiosity, does someone who used both Kato and Toyama Noborikoi can point out what are the similarities and differences between those two ? Btw... today JNS got some Katos and they disappeared faster than I could even open my email...



Not sure why people would be comparing the 2, apart from that they're usually associated with the same seller.

Quite different knives. There were some Kato comments recently here I won't repeat: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/25086-To-Kato-or-not-to-Kato-that-is-the-question-Actually-it-s-not-the-question-but-it-sounds-good

The Toyama's very similar to Watanabe, if that helps - at least gyuto-wise - but the Toyama's lighter, more of a medium gyuto in build, and Watanabe is the heavier version of it. Of course, I'm just comparining the 2 I own, though.


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## LuisMendes (Dec 2, 2015)

Me neither.. That's why I'm asking, but they do... Like in this topic for example http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/22207-perfect-gyuto-(another-kato-)?highlight=Toyama+Kato


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## labor of love (Dec 2, 2015)

Both knives are on the heavier side. That's pretty much where the similarities end.


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## El Pescador (Dec 2, 2015)

I have both, Toyama is Watenabe like and the Kato is like 1.5 times thicker/heavier but just as thin behind the edge.


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## Asteger (Dec 2, 2015)

LuisMendes said:


> Me neither.. That's why I'm asking, but they do... Like in this topic for example http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/22207-perfect-gyuto-(another-kato-)?highlight=Toyama+Kato



There was just one suggestion there from Shanop, but just because of heft. If you're used to lighter knives (I know Shanop loves his Shigefusa, but Shige gyuto seem too light for me) then Toyama should seem heavier. To me Toyama are medium between, say, my former old-Kato and a Sakai Yusuke or something laserish. However, a Kato will be heavier (though it seems the newer ones are thinner and lighter) with Watanabe in between the K and the T.


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## schanop (Dec 3, 2015)

Asteger said:


> There was just one suggestion there from Shanop, but just because of heft. If you're used to lighter knives (I know Shanop loves his Shigefusa, but Shige gyuto seem too light for me) then Toyama should seem heavier. To me Toyama are medium between, say, my former old-Kato and a Sakai Yusuke or something laserish. However, a Kato will be heavier (though it seems the newer ones are thinner and lighter) with Watanabe in between the K and the T.



Love my Shig's, definitely  Also love Kikuryo. Toyama and Kato are not quite the same, but if someone is looking for a heavier, thicker knife, it fits the bill.


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## chinacats (Dec 3, 2015)

FWIW, my Watanabe weighed 20g more than my Kato workhorse from Maxim (both 240's--w/stock handles)...I kept the Watanabe. Kato also a very good knife that I enjoyed...I really need to try a Toyama.:knife:


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## KimBronnum (Dec 3, 2015)

I think they are totally different animals. They feel very different in hand. But they are both very good cutters, thin behind the edge, and bade of very well treated steel. The Toyama has better edge retension. This is how I think about them anyway. One thing to consider, however, is that I compared the 240 Totama to the 210 Kato. I wonder if a 240 Kato would feel more allike the Toyama? I havn't tried a 240 Kato so I don't know. 
- Kim


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## DamageInc (Dec 3, 2015)

My 240 Kato is heavier and thicker than my 240 Toyama. It is also much shorter in height. Kato is much more convex due to this.

The Toyama has a larger flat spot. Edge retention is slightly better on the Toyama.

They are very different knives overall. Only real similarity is the reactivity of the cladding and that they are both "heavy" knives.

Love them both.


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## TheDispossessed (Dec 3, 2015)

I have two Kato 210 gyutos. Honestly I think the Kato heaviness is blown way out of proportion. One of my Katos is not a JNS model and it weighs in under 170g. For reference, that's less than 25g heavier than an Ashi Ginga 240, which as we all know is a very light knife. The thing people forget to account for is some knives, like the Ashi, taper evenly from the handle to the tip. The Katos, and Shigs, and many other knivesfrom sanjyo for example, are very very thick at the tang, almost deba thick, and taper rapidly to the heel and then again to about 1-2cm from the heel. This makes them sturdier, stiffer, and heavier but leaves the majority of the blade pretty thin actually even at the spine. It also renders choil pictures effectively useless for shedding light on the knifes performance.


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## preizzo (Dec 3, 2015)

Hinoura knives have the sames characteristics. Nice knives Btw


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## Fillmoreslimm (Dec 3, 2015)

Absolutely agree, My recently sold Kato 210 weighed in at exactly 170g. The nimble Workhorse!


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## DamageInc (Dec 3, 2015)

Fillmoreslimm said:


> Absolutely agree, My recently sold Kato 210 weighed in at exactly 170g. The nimble Workhorse!





TheDispossessed said:


> I have two Kato 210 gyutos. Honestly I think the Kato heaviness is blown way out of proportion.



I have both the 210 and the 240. The 240 is MUCH thicker than the 210. The 210 is quite nimble, something I would never call the 240.


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## Asteger (Dec 3, 2015)

TheDispossessed said:


> I have two Kato 210 gyutos. Honestly I think the Kato heaviness is blown way out of proportion. One of my Katos is not a JNS model and it weighs in under 170g.





DamageInc said:


> I have both the 210 and the 240. The 240 is MUCH thicker than the 210. The 210 is quite nimble, something I would never call the 240.



It's not the best thing for us buyers if there's a disproportional difference between the 2. Harder to make comparisons/predictions. 

Kato-wise, I've got a 180 and had a 240 gyuto, and a 180 petty, so I compare to these. However, my 240 was one of the early ones and, again, those seem to have been made thicker. If you want to compare, maybe newer 240 Kato are similar in heft to other heavy knives now, when before they were heavier.

Getting back to the beggining of the thread, I still don't think Toyama vs Workhorse Kato is a great comparison. Different knives, aside from the similarity of usually being associated with JNS. Seems there's a recent upswell in Kato interest, maybe supported by people discovering older threads, but they're not the most user-friendly knives in time I think. Toyama have a much more uniform and (for good J-gyuto) conventional s-grind which, with their kasumi finish, should make them easier to maintain. My 210 gyuto came in excellent shape; very impressive in fact. 

Wrote this in the thread referred to above about the unusual Kato grind: 



Asteger said:


> What makes it tricky thinning is that the grind is inconsistent. ... I don't mean inconsistent as in 'bad' and under/overground. Rather, on the front/right side I think the convexity is more pronounced and seems to come closer to the edge in the middle of the blade, with less convexity towards the heel and tip, and so when the knife goes through food I guess there's this sort of 'V' wedging effect I think, pushing food away from the middle of the blade to either end, in addition to just away from the blade like other knives. You see it when you thin and your stone rides up much higher around the heel especially when compared to the middle, and so it's tougher to be consistent with this and make it look good.



Easy to compare weight and profiles, but T and K are quite different knives


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## LuisMendes (Dec 3, 2015)

Nice. Great to know. I was considering a Kato for Christmas, but if I go to some of the very high range knifes, I'll probably go with a shig. The toyama is the best knife I own, but I don't think I'll want a heavier knife.


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## Asteger (Dec 3, 2015)

LuisMendes said:


> ... if I go to some of the very high range knifes, I'll probably go with a shig.



Price and 'buzz' are one thing, but otherwise Toyama, Shig & Kato are all certainly in the same area. 'Very high range' might be Kato Kikuryu, Shig Kitaeji or honyaki of some sort. But Toyama definitely belongs in the Kato Workhorse/Shig Kasumi zone.


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## schanop (Dec 3, 2015)

Asteger said:


> Price and 'buzz' are one thing, but otherwise Toyama, Shig & Kato are all certainly in the same area. 'Very high range' might be Kato Kikuryu, Shig Kitaeji or honyaki of some sort. But Toyama definitely belongs in the Kato Workhorse/Shig Kasumi zone.



What did you say, K? Kikuryo, Kitaeji, and Konosuke?

I just weighted some of my knives to give a bit more perspective:

Kato kikuryu 240mm ho handle, 270g
Shigefusa kitaeji 240mm western handle, 238g
Konosuke honyaki 240mm hybrid handle, 268g
Toyama Noborikoi 240mm ho handle, 240g.


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## LuisMendes (Dec 3, 2015)

Really?? Saved my day... And some money too...:doublethumbsup:


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## Asteger (Dec 3, 2015)

schanop said:


> What did you say, K? Kikuryo, Kitaeji, and Konosuke?
> 
> I just weighted some of my knives to give a bit more perspective:
> 
> ...



No one's mentioned Konosuke, but what the h.  Wow the Toyama 240 (I have a 210) is heavier than I thought. Would like to know what a someone's Shig Kitaeji 240 or 210 wa weighs.


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## bkultra (Dec 3, 2015)

My shig Kitaeji is 222g, but it has an aftermarket handle


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## schanop (Dec 3, 2015)

Asteger said:


> No one's mentioned Konosuke, but what the h.  Wow the Toyama 240 (I have a 210) is heavier than I thought. Would like to know what a someone's Shig Kitaeji 240 or 210 wa weighs.



konosuke was for honyaki of some sort :0 I recalled that my previous wa 240 kitaeji was around 205g.


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## TheDispossessed (Dec 3, 2015)

I feel like someone needs to start a knife weight thread now....maybe called "the weigh in" I'd do it but my threads are doomed they never succeed past two pages.


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## Asteger (Dec 3, 2015)

205g for Shig kitaeji wa? Too bad, was hoping for more. Sold my kasumi 240 because it was light for me at 200g.


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## TheDispossessed (Dec 3, 2015)

VERY loosely related if at all but the lightest knife i ever had was a gesshin ginga wa petty 150. it was literally like 32g, that knife ruled and took some serious abuse from cases and cases of ducks and never chipped.


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## schanop (Dec 3, 2015)

I also have a 210 kitaeji santoku that weights 220g with ho handle. Heiji 210 santoku is around the same weight.


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## brainsausage (Dec 3, 2015)

Toyama and Kato are two very different knives IMO. Profile and grind are noticeably different. The only similarity is the excellent heat treat. Otherwise, I don't think it's really fair to compare them.

I do find it odd that there's a sudden up-swell for Kato's around these parts. I've owned two, and definitely enjoyed the hell out of them. But I just sold my second one after buying a Toyama...

I also received a brand new fresh from Devin 240 ITK the day before I received a brand new 240 Shig, and sold the ITK after a day of working with the Shig, so what the hell do I know.


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## Asteger (Dec 3, 2015)

brainsausage said:


> I do find it odd that there's a sudden up-swell for Kato's around these parts.



I think it's down to newer members, as said, who are discovering the older Kato buzz. Probably a good time to put any Kato you'd like to sell on the bst!


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## Asteger (Dec 3, 2015)

schanop said:


> I also have a 210 kitaeji santoku that weights 220g with ho handle. Heiji 210 santoku is around the same weight.



I've thought of ordering a kitaeji for a while because of the possibility they'd have more heft to them. The price has gone up in Japan, though


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## OneS (Dec 5, 2015)

There is a bit of a frenzy around anything that is collectible. As a comics collector and a wine man I recognise the same buzz around the 'hottest thing' (remember those Parker pointed wines people ?) I like to think I am above that, but if the chance to buy a shig ever popped up..... I would probably get it !


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## Asteger (Dec 5, 2015)

OneS said:


> There is a bit of a frenzy around anything that is collectible. As a comics collector and a wine man I recognise the same buzz around the 'hottest thing' (remember those Parker pointed wines people ?) I like to think I am above that, but if the chance to buy a shig ever popped up..... I would probably get it !



They're not that hard to come by. They've got 3 people working on them which helps with numbers, as opposed to some others (Kato, etc) doing it alone.


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## Cashn (Dec 5, 2015)

I got serious about my knives a little over a year ago. Was reading this site for a while and eventually joined in March of this year. Took me about 6-8 months of trying different knives to figure out I like thicker knives over lasers. Ii love my Heiji gyuto so I set my eyes on a Kato workhorse, took 2 months roughly to find one but I absolutely love it so far. Grass is always greener tho right? Just my 2cents on a new guy wanting a Kato workhorse.


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## Asteger (Dec 5, 2015)

Heiji: The weight is great for me, though I wish it had more height and it felt better for me when I installed a longer handle of a similar weight. Great edge, steel, etc, and nice to sharpen. Very easy to maintain with its simple geometry - flat sides, shinogi and wide bevels - but they'd perform better without the thickness around the shinogi. I think they wedge a lot.

Kato: harder to maintain over time and a more complex, technical knife, but probably a better all around performer.


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## bkultra (Dec 5, 2015)

Have you tried to change you technique with the Heiji, in regards to wedging? Use the front third of the knife and lift the handle up a little to change the angle of the blade when you cut dense items that tend to wedge.


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## DamageInc (Dec 5, 2015)

If you're quick you can get a Toyama at -20%. Maksim is having a christmas sale ending this evening.


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## Asteger (Dec 5, 2015)

DamageInc said:


> If you're quick you can get a Toyama at -20%. Maksim is having a christmas sale ending this evening.



Thanks to you and someone else for the heads-up. Yeah, I got a yanagi. (Had no idea about the sale. Odd as it seems I'm periodically deleted from the mailing list.)

A great deal for me, I think. Actually, a superb deal considering my great impression of the maker and that it's 300mm and Blue 2.



bkultra said:


> Have you tried to change you technique with the Heiji, in regards to wedging? Use the front third of the knife and lift the handle up a little to change the angle of the blade when you cut dense items that tend to wedge.



Nah, but thanks. Of course you go for the thinnest part of the blade if that's what you need, but I am thinking of a design feature that leads to the wedging disadvantage. There's the wide and pretty uniform bevel, the clear shinogi, and then the flat face, front and back, like 2 left-right deba glued together almost. The wide bevel angle is steeper in the back 2/3, then widens somewhat, thins and is more acute in the front 1/3. But still I'm saying that, away from the edge and getting towards and going over the shinogi, there's residual thickness and extra metal that isn't normally left on the better gyuto and which, away from the edge, will be ground in a more complex way, with some convexity (and then sometimes with some s-grind concavity above there too). The Heiji geometry must be easier to grind out for the makers and has its advantages, but I figure there's also good reason why it's not more widely used for top gyuto.


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## HomeCook (Dec 5, 2015)

JNS sale code is JNSC. Maxim just added a few 240 Toyamas.


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## Asteger (Dec 5, 2015)

HomeCook said:


> JNS sale code is JNSC. Maxim just added a few 240 Toyamas.



Can't figure it out, as Maxim used to post this stuff in his own sub-forum - quick discounts, 1x or 2x a year. Now he's all shy. Anyway, great deal.



Asteger said:


> ... away from the edge ... ground in a more complex way, with some convexity



Got a helpful PM about this that the wide bevel is slightly convex (thanks J) which I neglected, but which despite appearances seems common enough on good wide bevels I think. My point above though - in case the Heiji crew conducts an ambush - is that, still, there's some bulk getting away from the edge (and I love the feel of the blade and that bulk, but...) which does make the blade thicker and less effective in ways at that point. Even with some convexity on the wide bev, I'd still say again it's a simpler design.


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## Asteger (Dec 5, 2015)

Asteger said:


> convex



Concave!


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## DamageInc (Dec 5, 2015)

There is also a 300mm Toyama Suji on sale. It's the best suji I've ever used and I highly recommend it. It's a steal at sale price.


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 5, 2015)

DamageInc said:


> If you're quick you can get a Toyama at -20%. Maksim is having a christmas sale ending this evening.





DamageInc said:


> There is also a 300mm Toyama Suji on sale. It's the best suji I've ever used and I highly recommend it. It's a steal at sale price.



I bit and decided to jump into the Toyama game I got a 135mm mukimono (and some kiita finger stones since the uchigomori were sold out). I'm a lefty but like to use parers/pettys off the board with the cutting edge up and towards me for peeling things, which simulates the geometry/mechanics of right hand use. It'll be interesting to see if my logic is correct with single bevels; my current favourite for this type of work is a Miyabi which has an asymmetric bevel biased towards RH use, so I see this as similar.


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