# The next Kato/Shigefusa: Western Workhorses



## stuplarosa (Apr 16, 2017)

I alluded to this in another discussion, but I thought it deserved its own thread.

Now that Shig and Kato are very hard to get, especially in the western-handled variants, who is next? What western workhorse is worth paying big buck for?


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## labor of love (Apr 16, 2017)

Do you mean western handled workhorse? Either way Toyama is the new king.


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## bkultra (Apr 16, 2017)

First you need to define "workhorse". Kato and Shigefusa are very different knives and can't fall into the same definition.


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## stuplarosa (Apr 16, 2017)

bkultra said:


> First you need to define "workhorse". Kato and Shigefusa are very different knives and can't fall into the same definition.



Fair enough. I guess I'm thinking more of a Kato than a Shigefusa. A substantial feel with a western handle.


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## labor of love (Apr 16, 2017)

bkultra said:


> First you need to define "workhorse". Kato and Shigefusa are very different knives and can't fall into the same definition.



Also yes. Who even knows what it means anymore. I'm guessing either big heavy knife or a knife that can do everything reasonably well.


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## stuplarosa (Apr 16, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Do you mean western handled workhorse? Either way Toyama is the new king.



Hmmm. I haven't seen a Toyama with a western handle. Do they exist?


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## labor of love (Apr 16, 2017)

stuplarosa said:


> Hmmm. I haven't seen a Toyama with a western handle. Do they exist?



Nope. Buy one anyway.


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## preizzo (Apr 16, 2017)

Wakui or toyama!


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## fatboylim (Apr 17, 2017)

I was annoyed to miss out on an Itinomonn Western bolsterless!


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## patraleigh (Apr 17, 2017)

+1 Toyama


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## fatboylim (Apr 17, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Nope. Buy one anyway.



Or get a custom western handle made for the Toyama. I got a custom Japanese handle on mine!


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## StonedEdge (Apr 17, 2017)

Off topic I know, but can anyone shed some light on what exactly an "S grind" is? Seems to come up often in the Kato/Shig workhorse discussions.


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## khashy (Apr 17, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Off topic I know, but can anyone shed some light on what exactly an "S grind" is? Seems to come up often in the Kato/Shig workhorse discussions.



The Dalman in the photo below is an example of an S geind:


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## StonedEdge (Apr 17, 2017)

Thanks Khashy! I assume this is meant to minimalize food sticking to the blade? How would one go about thinning one&#8203; of these when the time came?


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## valgard (Apr 17, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Thanks Khashy! I assume this is meant to minimalize food sticking to the blade? How would one go about thinning one&#8203; of these when the time came?


I don't have first hand experience but I would guess it can also help reduce the drag on some produce.


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## RDalman (Apr 17, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Thanks Khashy! I assume this is meant to minimalize food sticking to the blade? How would one go about thinning one&#8203; of these when the time came?



To some extent, primarily for ease of cutting the way I do it. Sharpen like a low/short widebevel.


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## khashy (Apr 17, 2017)

RDalman said:


> To some extent, primarily for ease of cutting the way I do it. Sharpen like a low/short widebevel.



Yup, what he said - you know, the guy that makes them :wink:


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## StonedEdge (Apr 17, 2017)

RDalman said:


> To some extent, primarily for ease of cutting the way I do it. Sharpen like a low/short widebevel.



Ahh makes sense! Btw your IG feed makes me drool haha


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## fatboylim (Apr 18, 2017)

Toyama and Wakui are both great picks. I would also add Yoshikasu Ikeda, but he is quite pricey already.


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## Wdestate (Apr 18, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Toyama and Wakui are both great picks. I would also add Yoshikasu Ikeda, but he is quite pricey already.



i have not tried a Toyama, but i +1 with the yoshikazu ikeda/Kasahara. Think half my post mention i replaced my shig's and kato's after trying these. I have had a few people contact me about them since i posted a little spotlight on this maker but since i have an odd source thats not easily obtainable for anyone else im working on finding if any of my sources clients in japan have a web presence anywhere, i will update when i get a solid answer.


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## fatboylim (Apr 18, 2017)

Let me know, I maybe interested in the future for a honyaki from him!


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## stuplarosa (Apr 18, 2017)

OP here.

I feel like I asked, "What is a really good stout beer?"

And the forum answered, "You should really drink wine." and then went off to discuss the best wines....


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## fatboylim (Apr 18, 2017)

stuplarosa said:


> OP here.
> 
> I feel like I asked, "What is a really good stout beer?"
> 
> And the forum answered, "You should really drink wine." and then went off to discuss the best wines....



What have you been smoking???
... and can I have some?


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## labor of love (Apr 18, 2017)

To be honest what you're looking for doesn't exist. Kato is a one of a kind thing, if you really want one with a western handle you might as well save up $700-800 and start a wtb thread. Or find a custom maker that uses really thick blade stock and get your own custom. 


stuplarosa said:


> OP here.
> 
> I feel like I asked, "What is a really good stout beer?"
> 
> And the forum answered, "You should really drink wine." and then went off to discuss the best wines....


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## stuplarosa (Apr 18, 2017)

labor of love said:


> To be honest what you're looking for doesn't exist. Kato is a one of a kind thing, if you really want one with a western handle you might as well save up $700-800 and start a wtb thread. Or find a custom maker that uses really thick blade stock and get your own custom.



That's what I was afraid of. The money isn't an issue, but I don't have enough posts to post a wtb, so I'll hang around for a while and see what I can learn. Who knows? Maybe I'll change my mind.


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## ryanjams (Apr 18, 2017)

Xerxes knives look intriguing, would love to try one out. Seen some nice looking hidden tang western-ish handles such as the primus series, and he offers a "workhorse" grind for whatever that's worth


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## Nemo (Apr 18, 2017)

I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you are looking for ( http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?t=30927 ) ?

I reckon Mert would put a western handle on one if you asked.

Waiting list could be a few months (or longer) though.


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## Customfan (Apr 19, 2017)

I say, go on a limb, try stuff out and find your own perfect knife, its cheaper (we´ll maybe not!) and more fun that way... what is perfect for one knife nut is not for another.

You can always post a WTB for a kato if you dont like what you get, its part of the journey.

Good luck with the search!


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## daddy yo yo (Apr 19, 2017)

I'd choose a custom maker and have one made for me! Dave Martell, DT, Marko Tsourkan, Haburn, Haas, Catcheside, Dalman, etc. Plenty of sweet stuff to choose from!

However, waiting can be long! I have been and still am waiting for a knife since January 2013 from one of the vendors here on the forums... In the meantime I have found and purchased several Shigs, 2 Hattori KDs, a Kato, and some other stuff. Just saying the wait can be long unless you find or look for one on BST.


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## Jkts (Apr 19, 2017)

stuplarosa said:


> OP here.
> 
> I feel like I asked, "What is a really good stout beer?"
> 
> And the forum answered, "You should really drink wine." and then went off to discuss the best wines....





I would guess most people here go for lasers over heavy knives. Workhorses recently have received respect, but then most folks go for Japanese handles. So you may be asking a group of wine drinkers, what's the third best stout beer...

What if you emailed the vendors that carried the knives and said I'd like to buy a Kato but don't want to wait. What's the next best heavy knife with a western handle that I can buy now?


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## stuplarosa (Apr 19, 2017)

Jkts said:


> I would guess most people here go for lasers over heavy knives. Workhorses recently have received respect, but then most folks go for Japanese handles. So you may be asking a group of wine drinkers, what's the third best stout beer...
> 
> What if you emailed the vendors that carried the knives and said I'd like to buy a Kato but don't want to wait. What's the next best heavy knife with a western handle that I can buy now?



I've emailed several vendors. Their reply is almost always something like: "These makers *used* to make western-handled versions, but stopped. Sorry."

The closest recommendation from a vendor was this takeshi saji. But I think I would end up having that one rehandled anyway because of the odd handle shape.


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## zoze (Apr 19, 2017)

Did you check Tanaka R2 with ironwood handle? 
Watanabe also makes some western gyutos. You'll find only smaller ones on his website, though. Talk to him.


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## Jkts (Apr 19, 2017)

I agree with you - don't buy a western handled knife with a handle that doesn't appeal to you. Too much hassle and even after changing the handle, you might not like it. 

There are a lot of great Japanese knife makers out there- very few that make workhorses with western handles and of the quality you want. It seems like outside getting a shig or kato, you would be compromising.

Many of us evolved from German knives to western handled j-knives to Japanese handled j-knives. I still have and use sets of each. The move to Japanese handles gives you many more options. 

Have you tried many knives with traditional handles? My first decent wa handled knife was a j-handled version of the exact same 270mm gyuto I had in a western handle. I ended up preferring it over the western handle. I was hooked and never looked back...

Maybe if you tried one really good workhorse j-handled knife while waiting for your kato to show up...


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## stuplarosa (Apr 19, 2017)

Jkts said:


> Have you tried many knives with traditional handles? .



Over the years I've owned eight or nine j-handled knives (and still own one nakiri). I could never quite get used to them. Admittedly, not all of them were quality knives, but I've never developed the same "relationship" to them that I have my western-handled knives.


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## V1P (Apr 19, 2017)

Stuplarosa, please check Pm.


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## stuplarosa (Apr 19, 2017)

zoze said:


> Did you check Tanaka R2 with ironwood handle?
> Watanabe also makes some western gyutos. You'll find only smaller ones on his website, though. Talk to him.



I have a friend with a Tanaka and it seems very light and thin to me.

The Watanabe blades look interesting, but the western handles I see on the website look very uncomfortable!


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## stuplarosa (Apr 19, 2017)

V1P said:


> Stuplarosa, please check Pm.



Responded.


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## Jkts (Apr 19, 2017)

stuplarosa said:


> I have a friend with a Tanaka and it seems very light and thin to me.
> 
> The Watanabe blades look interesting, but the western handles I see on the website look very uncomfortable!




I'm a huge fan of watanabe knives- I get the Japanese style handles with keyaki wood. Perhaps he can make you a workhorse style blade only with a tang for a western handle...then you an have a custom handle placed on it.


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## fatboylim (Apr 19, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Or get a custom western handle made for the Toyama. I got a custom Japanese handle on mine!



As mentioned earlier, find a great blade, then gret a custom western handle made... Maximum choice with handle added...


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## Jkts (Apr 19, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> As mentioned earlier, find a great blade, then gret a custom western handle made... Maximum choice with handle added...



Definitely start with a great blade.

Would the tang matter? For Japanese handles, they seem to use a squarish bar or rod into a circular handle. For western style, it's more a flat bar either as a hidden or full tang. 

Do folks here have positive experiences converting Japanese handled knives to western style? Any feedback?


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## Customfan (Apr 19, 2017)

Not something I generally do... It can be done successfully but as a general rule, I keep it wa or yo. Its a personal thing.

Tang is a big part of it.... 

Depends a lot on on the knife configuration and specs.


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## Von blewitt (Apr 19, 2017)

Michael Rader has done some handles for Epicuruan Edge with Asai blades
Here's a link to a 240 gyuto
http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=96041


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## labor of love (Apr 19, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> As mentioned earlier, find a great blade, then gret a custom western handle made... Maximum choice with handle added...



Could I see a photo of this knife?????


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## stuplarosa (Apr 19, 2017)

Von blewitt said:


> Michael Rader has done some handles for Epicuruan Edge with Asai blades
> Here's a link to a 240 gyuto
> http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=96041



That looks great!!!


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## jonnachang (Apr 26, 2017)

Has anyone compared a Toyama and a Kato side by side? Curious!


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## dwalker (Apr 26, 2017)

jonnachang said:


> Has anyone compared a Toyama and a Kato side by side? Curious!



I've used both, but not side by side. Both are great, and it is impossible for me to pick a winner, partially due to the fact that what I prefer in a knife changes from time to time. If I could only have one gyuto for the rest of my life, both of these would do admirably. The Toyama does it for half the cost. I found them to be similar in performance.


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## Badgertooth (Apr 27, 2017)

jonnachang said:


> Has anyone compared a Toyama and a Kato side by side? Curious!



Yup but not in comparable sizes. Toyama has more power due to the weight and has much more height to it too. The edge is more convexed too and the tip is less tapered than any of the Katos. Also you really only get two flavours of Toyama gyuto but I can't pass comment on the Damascus. With Kato the workhorse has a more upswept tip and thicker spine than the regular offering, it is also slightly thicker behind the edge. The Kurouchi is ground more like a wide bevel knife and sits somewhere between the regular offering and Workhorse in terms of heft and feel in hand. The Damascus is the thinnest of the lot, ground thinly towards the edge and may well be the hardest of the lot in terms of heat treat but I have yet to give it a proper outing on the stones, just an initial impression. That said I'd love to get my hands on 270mm regular Kato and revisit this question after putting it through its paces against a 270 Toyama.


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## zoze (Apr 27, 2017)

As the Toyama is considered to be very similar to a Watanabe pro gyuto, I dare to add my 2cents:
Watanabe (kasumi) and Kato (JNS Yo Workhorse) both are 55mm at the heel. The Kato is a little heavier (280ish gr.) whereas the Watanabe is in the 250s.
Both knives are pretty sturdy, Kato even a bit more so. Personally I better like the feel and performance of the Watanabe, but wouldn't miss the Kato neither.


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## jonnachang (Apr 27, 2017)

Thanks for the input guys! I just wanted to know as far as being close in comparison,not whether one is better than the other. I mean to get a Kato now a days... Lucky Lucky Lucky!


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## Nomsdotcom (May 1, 2017)

Anybody know why the 240 is more expensive than the 270 Toyoma on Naturalstones??

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-kasumi-gyuto-240mm/

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-kasumi-gyuto-270mm/


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## ryanjams (May 1, 2017)

I would assume it's older stock, seen the 240s come and go a few times while the 270s have remained in stock


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## Nomsdotcom (May 2, 2017)

ryanjams said:


> I would assume it's older stock, seen the 240s come and go a few times while the 270s have remained in stock



Ahh thanks. That would make sense


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## stuplarosa (Feb 12, 2018)

It's been quite a while, but I thought I would report back on what I ended up doing.

The recommendations from this thread to look at Watanabe led me to have nice discussion with him. He agreed to make me a blade that could have a western handle made.

Once I received his beautiful work, I sent it off to Daniel O'Malley at Epicurean Edge. I just got his message that he has sent it off to me!


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## labor of love (Feb 12, 2018)

Wow, Ive never seen a watanabe like that before. Thats really cool of him.


stuplarosa said:


> It's been quite a while, but I thought I would report back on what I ended up doing.
> 
> The recommendations from this thread to look at Watanabe led me to have nice discussion with him. He agreed to make me a blade that could have a western handle made.
> 
> ...


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## stuplarosa (Feb 12, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Wow, Ive never seen a watanabe like that before. Thats really cool of him.



He was great to work with!


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## geoff_nocon (Feb 12, 2018)

holy crap that is awesome. A honyaki from Sinichi with western handle would also be interesting


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## JaVa (Feb 12, 2018)

Uuuh! 
That's some true knife porn right there. 

Great idea and one seriously rare (only) piece. Why people haven't done this more???


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## labor of love (Feb 12, 2018)

geoff_nocon said:


> holy crap that is awesome. A honyaki from Sinichi with western handle would also be interesting



Yes!


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## milkbaby (Feb 12, 2018)

Awesome Watanabe... also awesome handle work. Incidentally I was just looking at Daniel's old rehandle picture thread this weekend to see how different woods look on a handle and wondered if still making them. Nice pickup!


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## Jville (Feb 12, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Wow, Ive never seen a watanabe like that before. Thats really cool of him.



That is a sweet Watanabe. What a great way to get outside the box and get what you really wanted.


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## valgard (Feb 12, 2018)

awesome on that Watanabe!


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## statusquo (Feb 12, 2018)

Very nice and unique knife! I have two handles by Daniel and can attest to the quality of his work.


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## brainsausage (Feb 12, 2018)

Shinichi is such a sweetie.


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## inzite (Feb 12, 2018)

a Joekiyo or Halcyon Forge.


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## panda (Feb 12, 2018)

kippington will make you a fat arse western handle i bet.
western handle watanabe just sounds wrong, lol.


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## Jkts (Feb 13, 2018)

Thats one unique blade... let us know how it cuts!


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## Von blewitt (Feb 13, 2018)

How many emails is Sin going to get about making similar blades...


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## valgard (Feb 13, 2018)

Von blewitt said:


> How many emails is Sin going to get about making similar blades...



hahahahahahahahaha


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## Marek07 (Feb 13, 2018)

stuplarosa said:


> View attachment 38486


Wow! Looks great. Though I've never held one, it's rather reminiscent of the photos I've seen of western-handled Shigefusas. Yours looks a bit more rounded and I assume more comfortable. Do let us know.


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## stuplarosa (Feb 13, 2018)

Another picture of Daniel's work.


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## inzite (Feb 13, 2018)

Jkts said:


> Thats one unique blade... let us know how it cuts!



it cuts really really fkn nice.


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## ashy2classy (Feb 14, 2018)

stuplarosa said:


> It's been quite a while, but I thought I would report back on what I ended up doing.
> 
> The recommendations from this thread to look at Watanabe led me to have nice discussion with him. He agreed to make me a blade that could have a western handle made.
> 
> ...



WOW! Great choices. Enjoy!!


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## ashy2classy (Feb 14, 2018)

Von blewitt said:


> How many emails is Sin going to get about making similar blades...



Was thinking the same thing...


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## steelcrimp (Feb 15, 2018)

So.. who's got an old Toyama they don't want anymore?


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## stuplarosa (Feb 15, 2018)

steelcrimp said:


> So.. who's got an old Toyama they don't want anymore?



Hahaha. Sending it off to my son to try.


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