# Am I getting worse at Sharpening?



## captaincaed (Sep 8, 2019)

For the past few years, I've been sharpening my own knives to good effect. I feel like my experiences have been on track with common wisdom, so my experience met my expectations.
Eg:

Shun Vg-10 is chippy when sharpened at low angles, but performs well at more obtuse angles
TF Denka is chippy on first sharpening, then holds a very acute edge for a very long time.
Carter White steel is easier to get a refined edge than Murata blue, and is easier to sharpen on more stones
Raising a burr, weakening, then removing with Jon's horizontal cross stroke works well, got a nice toothy edge.
But now I'm having issues. I've flattened my stones with Jon's recommended plate, but still feel like I'm having issues. Had anyone else gone through a similar hard spot?

Of note, I've tried two new things based on a vendor's recommendation:

Sharpening with both right and left hand for better left - side angle consistency (mostly successful)
Sharpening at a slightly lower angle for a sharper feeling knife (maybe less successful)
Weirdly it looks like right side angle consistency is worse than before, and maybe even worse than left side. Also, getting a nice toothy edge on the flat heel area, but less successful on the curved belly section.

Stones :

King 220/1000
Togiharu 1/4k (most common)
Gesshin 2k (common)
Gesshin synthetic natural (common)
Naniwa 8k

Anyway, any ideas or should I post some videos?


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## gman (Sep 10, 2019)

for the belly, are you using an arched or J shaped motion along the whole blade, or forward and back scrubbing?

i've never had much luck with the former, except for final polishing. for actual sharpening, i like to work on small sections at a time (1/2" or so), but being careful to raise a burr equally along the whole edge, and frequently checking against the board with a light source behind to make sure i'm not creating any high/low spots.


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## kayman67 (Sep 10, 2019)

I like using left right only if I go for very low angles, very close to the stone. 
Yesterday I was having my Chinese food, with chopsticks and it hit me. The way I apply pressure and control them is not far from the way I control the knife while sharpening like this. You need to make sure that all pressure points are correct and just using your fingers on the blade to pressure and guide it. In theory you should be able to have a very consistent pattern with both dominant and non dominant hand.


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## JBroida (Sep 10, 2019)

but what exactly are the issues you are having?


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## captaincaed (Sep 10, 2019)

"Weirdly it looks like right side angle consistency is worse than before, and maybe even worse than left side. Also, getting a nice toothy edge on the flat heel area, but less successful on the curved belly section."

Thanks everyone for the replies so far. I'll post a video soon.


For the belly I go back and forth at a 45 degree angle initially, and try to finish with either a j-hook sweep or the belly technique where you're going parallel with the stone that Jon showed in his video. I sharpen until I feel a burr, then smooth the bevel, repeat on the opposite side then deburr with a horizontal stroke, as in Jon's video. No stopping on soft media.
I was told that using only my right hand on the handle for both sides, the left bevel was multifaceted (pulling trailing edge strokes toward me). I switched to left hand and agree the bevel is more even and consistent than before.
The heel area bites nicely into an apple skin at an acute angle (20-30 degrees blade relative to apple), while the belly section bites just a little but slips off much more easily. The finger tip test registers "danger" at the heel but the belly slides over my finger pads with only a sense of "caution" if that makes sense.


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## mikaelsan (Sep 10, 2019)

Its hard to tell exactly what the issue your facing is but
Im thinking there is a chance that your knives are simply getting thicker behind the edge, and therefore takes longer to sharpen then anticipated, this is a problem i personally tend to run into when sharpening other peoples knives. This leaves a larger margin of error, maybe you put too high an angle somewhere on the blade. Then you might not realize you are not hitting the apex when your lowering it again. Does that make sense? this could be countered by thinning or creating a relief bevel. 
You can check if your hitting the apex with the marker trick. If you don't like that, i don't, you can also check how the current sharpening angle is throughout the blade and see how it looks compared to what angle your trying to put on, you do this by putting the knife on the stone at an angle you know is too low, then slowly move the blade edge leading towards the stone raising the angle until the knife "grabs" the stone, this will be your current angle.
You can also play around with technique for sure, we are not machines therefore not perfect when it comes to these things, i moved my supporting finger near the heel of the knife instead of the middle as it made it easier for me to put a closer to constant pressure on the knife throughout the length of the blade


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## KimBronnum (Sep 10, 2019)

@Captain... I recommend you to wach Jons youtube videos on how to sharpen a few times - and especially the video about the trick to do the tip. I learned a lot by watching his videos again and again. Every time I became consistent in one area, I watched the videos again and learned new little things that I hadn´t even noticed when I was still struggeling with the basics. I think I´ve seen most of them more than five times  Sharpening is mostly about practice and thereby learning the motorskills. As I read your post I understand what you´re struggeling with as inconsistensy from lack of practice. You need to spend a fair amount of hours before it becomes like riding a bike.


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## Ochazuke (Sep 10, 2019)

Ah! I remember feeling this way about a year in to learning how to sharpen.

I learned how to sharpen and how to *actually* cook roughly at the same time. As I got better, I kept thinking I was getting worse but really I just started being able to notice the things I had done badly.

Basically the better I got at both sharpening and using, the higher my standards got as well. Is it possible this is the case for you as well?


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## gman (Sep 10, 2019)

mikaelsan raises a good point. if your technique hasn't changed, but the performance of the knife is slowly getting worse, then it could definitely be time for a thinning.


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## captaincaed (Sep 10, 2019)

Those are all great points. I can see a combination of two things happening:

I'm getting harder on myself. I used to be thrilled with current results, but now I know a bit more. 
My knives are getting richer behind the edge. I did the pennies at the edge test and I need to stack three to get the edge apex to touch the stone. Isn't two a better benchmark for Japanese knives? If I only put two pennies at the spine, I can cut my finger on the edge lifted up from the stone face.


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## captaincaed (Sep 10, 2019)

KimBronnum said:


> @Captain... I recommend you to wach Jons youtube videos on how to sharpen a few times - and especially the video about the trick to do the tip. I learned a lot by watching his videos again and again. Every time I became consistent in one area, I watched the videos again and learned new little things that I hadn´t even noticed when I was still struggeling with the basics. I think I´ve seen most of them more than five times  Sharpening is mostly about practice and thereby learning the motorskills. As I read your post I understand what you´re struggeling with as inconsistensy from lack of practice. You need to spend a fair amount of hours before it becomes like riding a bike.


Thank you yes I've watched many. I think it's a great time to revisit them with fresh eyes like you suggested. I agree about the motor skills. A lot is practice. The frustrating part is consistently getting different results on different parts of the same knife.

Back to the grind stone...


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## rob (Sep 10, 2019)

I'm certainly no expert, though these two statements "Sharpening at a slightly lower angle for a sharper feeling knife" & "I can cut my finger on the edge lifted up from the stone face."

would suggest maybe you are going a little too low on your angles and not actually hitting the edge? The good old "sharpie trick" will confirm this. Is it possible you are hitting the edge down towards the heel and are sharpening behind the edge once you get up towards the belly?


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## Kippington (Sep 10, 2019)

gman said:


> mikaelsan raises a good point. if your technique hasn't changed, but the performance of the knife is slowly getting worse, then it could definitely be time for a thinning.


This is big one. People learning to sharpen tend to allow the knife to get thicker every time they go to the stones. Add to that they tend to remove too much metal each time, and you've got yourself a fat edge in no time.

You'll either need to learn to thin the knife sooner or later, or your test cutting medium needs to be either soft or thin enough that thickness behind the edge makes no difference. It also means that each subsequent sharpening session will take a longer amount of time.


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## M1k3 (Sep 11, 2019)

Kippington said:


> This is big one. People learning to sharpen tend to allow the knife to get thicker every time they go to the stones. Add to that they tend to remove too much metal each time, and you've got yourself a fat edge in no time.
> 
> You'll either need to learn to thin the knife sooner or later, or your test cutting medium needs to be either soft or thin enough that thickness behind the edge makes no difference. It also means that each subsequent sharpening session will take a longer amount of time.



I like to do what I call "maintenance thinning". Every time I sharpen a knife, I hit the sides with the stones. Not a lot, just enough to remove some metal, just like the edge. But not overdone.


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## kayman67 (Sep 11, 2019)

+1. And I always considered this part of the sharpening process.
But since you mentioned going to lower angles combined with left and right method, I wonder how high were they before and just how aggressive you used to remove metal. 
I assumed that you also develop and work at least with one initial burr on both sides. I'm not using pressure steps on my routine, but they have the advantage of concentrating things towards this very first step.


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## JBroida (Sep 11, 2019)

yeah... i'd love to see pictures of knives you've sharpened (especially closeups of the edge, choil shots, the tip area, and both sides)... i feel like that would help here


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2019)

This is fantastic feedback, I will post a couple pictures and a video of I'm really on top of it


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2019)

Let's start with small, Ryusen R2 petty. The choil shot is naff, phone is struggling.
Sharpened on gesshin 2000, synthetic natural as a touch up to start. If I can improve this part of the process, I'll feel more confident resetting the bevels.


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2019)

Remaining right side shots. I don't know if I'm nuts but there may be a hair of burr on the right side.

Sharpened, then just used to skin an orange (board contact involved).


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## Kippington (Sep 12, 2019)

The good news is that there are no obviously glaring errors, judging from the photos alone.

The following would be closer to a guess than a truth, without having the knife to see in person:
Your angles seem a little obtuse, judging by the fuzzy choil shot and another thing which I won't go into detail. You mentioned pennies earlier, is this something you tried on this knife?

Your angle seems to be changing from heel (acute) to tip (obtuse). Your edge testing appears to echo this.

There seems to be a wire edge in the last photo that you need to deal with.
You might want to consider stropping.


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2019)

Here's a video of edge bite. After cutting the orange it's there, but just. I don't think it's excellent yet.
https://imgur.com/a/95zPm4h


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## Kippington (Sep 12, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Here's a video of edge bite. I don't think it's excellent yet.
> https://imgur.com/a/95zPm4h


Whoa dude, that's not how you do the test on your thumb! What you are doing is flat out dangerous! 

I'll post a description of the proper way to do that test in a bit, but you gotta stop doing it that way...


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## Benuser (Sep 12, 2019)

Do you strop and deburr before going to the next stone? Don't go to the next one unless you can't reduce the burr any further. In practice this means that you will stay the most time with the coarsest stones.


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2019)

@Kippington cool thanks I'm certainly open to suggestions! Hopefully it only looks bad due to the angle. It's on the thumb nail, not skin.

I've been told my angle is a bit obtuse as well, but my bevel width seems normal when I look at other people's knives, but my scale may not be adjusted well!

No pennies on this knife since it's so short, I didn't think the angles would work well. This was all by eye. I think I managed a more acute angle on the right, but it's easier to see in person.

@Benuser I'm trying to lightly strop and deburr on the stone as in Jon's videos, without using leather, not just yet. Maybe more used to carbon steels so I'm not doing so adequately on R2...?


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## Kippington (Sep 12, 2019)

Here's the thumb nail test, using the lid of a plastic marker to similar effect.

At the start I use the spine of the knife to demonstrate what a blunt knife will do -
it just slides off.
Using the sharp side, the edge catches and digs into the plastic (or the nail) and you can't push the knife forward without shaving or outright cutting into the surface.
The tip of the knife I show in the video is blunter than the rest of the edge - you can see it in the test. However it is still sharp enough to shave bits off the plastic, you can see it on the knife at the end (don't do this to your nails though).
The lower the angle that the knife catches, the sharper it is.

You can get misleading results if you create a small cut in your plastic/nail and keep catching the same cut with blunter parts of the edge.

You can test the two sides of the knife at the same angle to see if you have a burr left over, although asymmetrical sharpening will skew these results.

There's a different finger test with which you use your skin. Murray Carter calls it the three finger test, you can look it up on YouTube.


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2019)

@Kippington that's very cool thank you. 
You a fan of ZDP? I have one that I'm a bit hesitant to sharpen, but I'm liking it so far. Retention is quite good for me


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## ian (Sep 12, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I've been told my angle is a bit obtuse as well, but my bevel width seems normal when I look at other people's knives, but my scale may not be adjusted well!



Bevel width doesn't necessarily tell you angle, fwiw. Make sure your knives are thin behind the edge too. If they need thinning, an obtuse angle will give you a wider bevel than it otherwise would. (I'm not skilled enough to see your angles from the fuzzy choil like Kip, though.)


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 12, 2019)

Kippington said:


> The lower the angle that the knife catches, the sharper it is.



Here is an honest question (I don’t claim to know the answer; that is why I’m asking [emoji16]): is this quoted claim true? The reason I ask is that I thought that this data point about how low you can go tells you about a combination of two things: sharpness AND how acute the sharpening angle for the edge is. (Compare with the scenario when you sharpen the same knife with a total angle of say 40 degrees. Couldn’t it be as sharp, or almost as sharp at least, as the one in the video without catching at the same low angle?) thx!


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## kayman67 (Sep 12, 2019)

Yes it could.
What tests have showed us is that lower angles made knives cut longer and thus giving a better "sharpness" scale. So that won't necessarily be a sharpness test, but a performance test. I've seen knives unable to cut my finger and still perform way better than some that could, but were having really high angle values. Is this a bit confusing?

LE: typos


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## ian (Sep 12, 2019)

+1 to kayman

If you decrease the angle to the point that your nail is contacting the shoulder of the bevel rather than the edge (ie if the angle in the test is smaller than your sharpening angle), you’ll fail the test no matter how refined and perfect the edge is. However, testing at small angles (larger than your sharpening angle, though) seems like a good idea, since you’ll be pushing in a direction that’s more likely to make the knife slide.


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 12, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> Yes it could.
> 
> It's this a bit confusing?



Great, thanks! And no, not confusing at all. It was clarifying. [emoji1303]


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## captaincaed (Sep 14, 2019)

I took another crack on Ryusen with the synthetic natural, and may have done better. Basically just focusing more with greater concentration for the final steps, and spending more time deburring, about 3x longer than carbon. That process seems to have helped. @Kippington pen cap check has better results. Also used my nail, must admit. Working on the board hasn't degraded the bite as much as before.


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## driver (Sep 14, 2019)

I understand what are you talking about, guys...
But since 2009, when I made a sharpener for myself, I forgot all problem))).


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## Midsummer (Sep 14, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I took another crack on Ryusen with the synthetic natural, and may have done better. Basically just focusing more with greater concentration for the final steps, and spending more time deburring, about 3x longer than carbon. That process seems to have helped. @Kippington pen cap check has better results. Also used my nail, must admit. Working on the board hasn't degraded the bite as much as before.



Using the nail is fine; what is of concern is dragging the edge over the nail. If you just use the nail to check portions of the blade (eg: Klip's video) there is little risk. But sawing or dragging the edge across the nail risks cutting into the nail bed when your knives are extremely sharp and especially with the longer heavier blades. The way you used your nail in the video made me cringe like I was watching an accident about to happen. Maybe you can get away with it. Who knows?

I have been sharpening for 50yrs and I do not consider myself an authority. That is probably because I have been undisciplined and more recreational (home cook with too many knives and a guy who sharpens family and friends knives). I do notice I get better edges with tougher steels using synthetics. I have a nice little collection of J-nats and I find I do not have the patience or perhaps technique to sharpen the harder steels to the level I desire on the naturals. 

If I had the same experience you are having I would likely work on some near zero angle sharpening for a while to see what might happen- but like I said I am not an expert on the level of the guys who do it all the time.

Best of luck getting the edge and not hurting yourself in the mean time.


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## captaincaed (Sep 28, 2019)

Vids incoming soon - finally got a little tripod to shoot the work.


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## captaincaed (Sep 28, 2019)

Here's a full vid of sharpening a Mizuno from 1k-Gesshin synthetic natural. Love to hear comments.

I show three different views, moving the camera every time I change stones. It's probably worth it to skip around, as it got a little long.


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## driver (Sep 28, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Here's a full vid of sharpening a Mizuno from 1k-Gesshin synthetic natural. Love to hear comments.
> 
> I show three different views, moving the camera every time I change stones. It's probably worth it to skip around, as it got a little long.



Nice knife, nice stones, nice hends)))...
But Your board to hard for edge.
I'm sharpening my knives now much less often, when I use a simple pine plates.


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## captaincaed (Sep 28, 2019)

Here are two vids looking at the edge on the right and left side


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## captaincaed (Sep 28, 2019)

driver said:


> Nice knife, nice stones, nice hends)))...
> But Your board to hard for edge.
> I'm sharpening my knives now much less often, when I use a simple pine plates.


Most of the time I'm using edge maple, harder than pine, softer than the checkerboard.


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## PappaG (Sep 28, 2019)

I am no expert and do not think you suck at all at sharpening. I do not switch hands when sharpening, so take my comments with a grain of salt. When you switch to your left hand, it seems you take much shorter strokes when sharpening so it seems a little awkward to me. So hopefully someone who switches hands will chime in. 

How did you feel about the results when you were done? if you were not satisfied, I would suggest you a start with a coarser stone. Although not a universal view, I'm a big proponent of spending more time on coarse stones. You might find coarse stone to help with your edge.


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## driver (Sep 28, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Most of the time I'm using edge maple, harder than pine, softer than the checkerboard.


That's right, but how much cost pine in Home Depot?
I've change my cutting board every 6-8 month, before It receive enough microbes)))...
Of course simple pine seems not so beautiful, but at least better for knife...


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## captaincaed (Sep 29, 2019)

PappaG said:


> I am no expert and do not think you suck at all at sharpening. I do not switch hands when sharpening, so take my comments with a grain of salt. When you switch to your left hand, it seems you take much shorter strokes when sharpening so it seems a little awkward to me. So hopefully someone who switches hands will chime in.
> 
> How did you feel about the results when you were done? if you were not satisfied, I would suggest you a start with a coarser stone. Although not a universal view, I'm a big proponent of spending more time on coarse stones. You might find coarse stone to help with your edge.



Yeah the left hand is still a bit awkward, that's a good catch. How do the angles look to an outside eye?


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## M1k3 (Sep 29, 2019)

Here's my unprofessional opinion. The knife is already kind of sharp. No need to raise a burr. I'd do 2-5 very VERY light pressure edge leading strokes on your finishing stone. It should be much sharper now. I know @stringer posted a good example on his YouTube about 2-3 weeks ago.


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## labor of love (Sep 29, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Yeah the left hand is still a bit awkward, that's a good catch. How do the angles look to an outside eye?


I switch hands to sharpen just like you. As far as I can tell from the video I think you used very good angles for sharpening. Good finger placement. 
Have you rounded the sides of your stones? Would those stones benefit from working up mud first?
I noticed you tend to use the closest part of the stone to you for sharpening tip area, but I like farthest away part (but hey whatever works)
Maybe a few more passes in the low grit next time? Maybe?
Before I use a stropping motion I do like to rinse the stone off of swarf build up or any other particles that may remain after some sharpening on it.
It is a pain to switch hands with every single stroke when using stropping motion, eventually I taught myself to keep the knife in one hand and just flip it over with every pass in the stone. This will help you, knocking the burr back and forth one stroke per side until it’s very weak. Got a corkscrew laying around? That’s how I like to finish.


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## kayman67 (Sep 29, 2019)

Well, here it goes. I hope it won't sound harsh.
At this point it's not about how sharp it gets. Just let that go for a while.
I saw you are really focused on that edge and getting it sharp, but man there is a lot of tension in your hands. Do you throw balls? It's like that. You need a more relaxed and fluid motion.
I couldn't see very well, but J-strops sometimes do have some side effects. I'll try to find a clip about this and show you.


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## stringer (Sep 29, 2019)

Your very final strokes are highly important both to how sharp the knife will feel and how long the edge will last. 

Here's the link to my thoughts on finishing up. I've been getting into straight razors the last few months. It really helps with developing the feather touch. Sorry for the poor production quality and rambling.

I'll watch your videos today sometime and see if I spot anything.


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## Thorndahl88 (Sep 29, 2019)

I do something a little different to find the Apex. 
Learned it from a sharpening course from one of Dave martells videos. 
I do a small edge leading stroke, while raising the angle till it bites the Stone, but with feather light weight. Then I lower the angle just enough so it doesn’t bite. 
That’s my sharpening angle, for when i sharpen knives I don’t know the angle of. 
Then u don’t need the pennies or whatever ever other angle measurements ppl use. 
I get paper towel cutting sharpness easy that way. Even on a 1000’gritt stone. 
I hope it works out for u


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## captaincaed (Oct 2, 2019)

Thank you everyone for tips on final finishing strokes. For simplicity I wanted to just do the basics on this video, not to add confounding factors. 
Assuming the basics steps are adequate, I'm going to jump on the extra finishing steps.
Edge leading 
Stropping
Wash rinse repeat until happy 

Thank you also for the emphasis on relaxation! Sometimes it's easy to forget this is supposed to be fun 
Will try the apex finding trick, although I do like to play with this angle to find a good compromise between edge retention and thinness for the given steel


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## captaincaed (Oct 2, 2019)

Also, @labor of love, what do you mean by finishing on a cork screw?


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## kayman67 (Oct 2, 2019)

It should be about cleaning the apex, but with some alloys I've seen that this doesn't work that well.


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## PappaG (Oct 2, 2019)

I think he means pulling the knife through cork (from a wine bottle or whatever) when you are done to help pull off any residual burr.


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## captaincaed (Oct 2, 2019)

PappaG said:


> I think he means pulling the knife through cork (from a wine bottle or whatever) when you are done to help pull off any residual burr.


Oh that makes more sense.


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## captaincaed (Oct 2, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> It should be about cleaning the apex, but with some alloys I've seen that this doesn't work that well.


Yeah I'm certainly finding differences, and why simple carbon steels are so valued


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## labor of love (Oct 2, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Also, @labor of love, what do you mean by finishing on a cork screw?


Did I say cork screw? Haha


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