# Waiting Times & Price Increases



## toddnmd (Mar 7, 2018)

So, here's my situation . . . I got on a maker's list for a custom piece three years ago, and was quoted a price (and was originally told the wait was about 10 months). Had occasional check-ins, and did my best to be patient with delays. Today I found out my knife was finished (three years later), but was quoted a higher price than expected. Not hugely higher, but I roughly 15%, higher, and not on an inexpensive knife. When I inquired, I was told that prices increased last year (this is the first I've heard of it). I'll also note that the asked for price is higher than the price that is currently on the maker's website/order page.

So, what to do? 

I will add that: 1) I asked the maker to use a piece of wood I purchased especially for this knife. Which was a splurge for me, about $100 for the wood alone. 2) the reality is that this is a maker in VERY high demand, and I'm sure that there are quite a few people that would be happy to snatch this knife up at the maker's requested price, meaning that I have very little real power in this situation.

Still, it bothers me that a maker would repeatedly delay, and then quote a higher price when the knife was finished. It seems to me that since the delays were on the maker's end, he should honor the price quoted.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts, questions, and suggestions on dealing with this situation.


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## dmourati (Mar 7, 2018)

You could sell the knife and cover your increase in price. Let's see it.


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## dwalker (Mar 7, 2018)

If you and the maker agreed on a price 3 years ago it should be honored. 

If the price was given as an estimate and the knife was more work than anticipated (your piece if wood presenting unique challenges, etc.) you gotta roll with it. 

If the maker can command a higher price now than 3 years ago when you made your order, you are a part if that success, and it would feel to me like I was taken advantage of. I wouldn't like that at all.

A price increase 2+ years after your quoted delivery date is not your concern.


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## YG420 (Mar 7, 2018)

Im with dwalker


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## Barmoley (Mar 7, 2018)

Personally I think the maker should honor the price, if anything he should be very apologetic given the delay. Unfortunately, like you pointed out by not getting the knife you wont really teach him a lesson. Your best option is to buy the knife at a new, increased price, use it and sell it later if you dont like it or still have a bad feel over this situation. It is unfortunate that some makers let their fame or popularity go to their heads.


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## Godslayer (Mar 7, 2018)

Flame him on the forums :knife: :bat: but in all seriousness the maker should honor his originally quoted price, if im quoted XXXX on a knife, I expect that to be the agreed upon price bar something out of his control. Unfortunatly you may be forced into buying it at this point... theres really nothing you can do to stop him from charging you more unless you had pre paid for the knife.


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## frog13 (Mar 7, 2018)

I had a knife made last year by a sought after maker as well. He was supposed to deliver in October but had a delay. He didn't deliver until January but not only kept the quoted price he made me a beautiful matching paring knife for the delay.


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## dwalker (Mar 7, 2018)

You could refuse the knife and demand your wood back in it's original condition, or offer to sell it to the maker. 3 years ago the price was ~$100. Prices went up last year, now it's $300.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 7, 2018)

A conundrum, but I believe a contract was entered into when the maker accepted your commission. Did you get something in writing 3 years ago? Was a deposit made? Does the small print say that prices are not firm until the knife is ready for delivery? We need more info. But based on what you state I would be miffed, especially after a 3 year wait.


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## toddnmd (Mar 7, 2018)

I will say that the maker has sincerely apologized for the delay multiple times. 
There was no formal "contract" with any fine print. But there was a simple agreement, which is clear from emails.
I've tried to, as much as possible, objectively report the facts of the situation. In all honesty, I would say I've thought about this upcoming knife far more days over the past three years than I haven't thought about it.
The only other thing I'll add, is that today I got an email that said the knife was finished, and gave me a total price. It seemed high, so I asked for a breakdown, and that's when I was told that prices increased last year. 
It just seems that most makers honor prices quoted at the time work is accepted--it doesn't seem right that the maker delayed way beyond the initial timeframe, and then benefits from a price increase (though I don't think that was his intent at all).
Let me add that a price increase after two years, particularly from a highly sought after maker, doesn't seem unreasonable. But finding out about it on the day my knife is finished, after delivery has been delayed over two years, isn't sitting well with me.


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## cheflife15 (Mar 7, 2018)

How is he even delayed by two years? I would be enraged. I would offer the price agreed upon and that's it.


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## daveb (Mar 7, 2018)

When you say the total price "seemed high" - does that mean the total price had not been established at the time of the agreement?


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## panda (Mar 7, 2018)

that's what you get for wanting a frou frou knife, gotta pay to play with that crowd!!


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 7, 2018)

Maybe after 3 years he has forgotten the price you both agreed upon. Have you discussed the discrepancy. Maybe send him a copy of the emails where you discussed the price. If prices increased last year it was incumbent on him to inform you. He's not going to sell the knife from under you since he used your wood blanks. I would have a friendly chat and see what he suggests.


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## gic (Mar 8, 2018)

I really think he has to honor the price!


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## Von blewitt (Mar 8, 2018)

In my opinion if you pay a deposit it should lock in the price, if not then the price can fluctuate, the makers costs may have increased in that same time.


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## dough (Mar 8, 2018)

Ahh poor dream knife. His website might not have updated pricing and his costs might have gone up. I know as someone running a business 15% over three years isnt a lot. I do understand your side in this but I think all you can do is be honest with the maker too bc you dont want to be left with a sour taste in your mouth. He might make it right or tell you take it or leave it. My experience its just easier to communicate with the party involved bc this group can only affirm or dissuade your feelings.


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## labor of love (Mar 8, 2018)

Just walk away from the situation if the price makes you uncomfortable. Use the wood for another handle with a different maker.
Hypothetically speaking here-maybe the maker is well aware that the knife could fetch a much higher price today than a few years ago and is adjusting his prices accordingly. I imagine it might suck to make knives for people who could potentially resale them for significant profit.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 8, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Just walk away from the situation if the price makes you uncomfortable. Use the wood for another handle with a different maker.
> Hypothetically speaking here-maybe the maker is well aware that the knife could fetch a much higher price today than a few years ago and is adjusting his prices accordingly. I imagine it might suck to make knives for people who could potentially resale them for significant profit.



Point is the knife is over 26 months late. It should have taken only 10 months to finish. Its irrelevant whether or not the maker thinks his blades are worth more today, 3 years later. The honorable thing to do is honor the agreed price when the order was placed.


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## labor of love (Mar 8, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Point is the knife is over 26 months late. It should have taken only 10 months to finish. Its irrelevant whether or not the maker thinks his blades are worth more today, 3 years later. The honorable thing to do is honor the agreed price when the order was placed.



No, its relevant. And if that makes the buyer uncomfortable he should just walk away. Its just business.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 8, 2018)

Von blewitt said:


> In my opinion if you pay a deposit it should lock in the price, if not then the price can fluctuate, the makers costs may have increased in that same time.



+1 

also can offer to split the 'suprise'
if its a good faith disagreement.


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## JohnnyChance (Mar 8, 2018)

Von blewitt said:


> In my opinion if you pay a deposit it should lock in the price, if not then the price can fluctuate, the makers costs may have increased in that same time.



Exactly. And this is exactly why makers should not take deposits. It leads to the entitled behavior displayed in this very thread and only causes problems for irate customers and craftsman working on slim margins.



Corradobrit1 said:


> Point is the knife is over 26 months late. It should have taken only 10 months to finish. Its irrelevant whether or not the maker thinks his blades are worth more today, 3 years later. The honorable thing to do is honor the agreed price when the order was placed.



Nah. Upfront cost and time frame are estimates. No deposits, no contract. It's not "late". You get general info and then your name goes on the list. When it's called, you're up. He could have communicated better in this case and gone over pricing again before starting work on the knife, this is true. A mistake certainly, but not an overly egregious one.

And I do not believe this to be a case of "he thinks he can get more for them today" as if that were the case, he could have raised his prices up 50%.

It might be some sticker shock expecting one price and seeing another. But it is also a craftsman hopefully fairly valuing his own work. He's not getting rich off that extra 10-15%.


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## osakajoe (Mar 8, 2018)

If its a Japanese steel and you didnt know prices increased, then youve been under a rock and not reading these forums. 

I agree with all the others who say to pay.


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## F-Flash (Mar 8, 2018)

Funny world, this knifething. You can pretty much guess/know the maker given the info in first post, but nobody wants to say it out loud. Okay, there might be few options, but still. 

Imo, deal is a deal. He gives you price, and thats it. Especially if its 2 years late.


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## ptolemy (Mar 8, 2018)

dwalker said:


> If you and the maker agreed on a price 3 years ago it should be honored.
> 
> If the price was given as an estimate and the knife was more work than anticipated (your piece if wood presenting unique challenges, etc.) you gotta roll with it.
> 
> ...



Agreed 100% but in the end, do you want the knife or not... ya, it feels like you got screwed, but in this instance, there is enough nebulous info here (no deposit, no written contract that stipulates things, etc), to have a major difference of an opinion.


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## NO ChoP! (Mar 8, 2018)

Pay it, and inform said maker of your feelings towards the higher price. Hope they do the right thing. If not, find a different maker to patronize the next time.


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## cheflivengood (Mar 8, 2018)

All high end customs where I have supplied the handle wood, that price has been subtracted from the original quoted price OR the maker has a standard mark down for client supplied wood in the $50-75 range. Regardless of what has happened to the makers costs, he should have informed you of the elevated price BEFORE the build began, and IF the build ran into problems that needed a price increase it should have been verified by you before the knife was taken any further.


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## Barmoley (Mar 8, 2018)

This is a good point. Supplying materials can be viewed as a deposit, especially if the material was used and cant be used for something else, which in this case it cant. This whole talk of there not being a contract etc seems odd, you dont need a deposit for there to be a contract. In any case that is irrelevant since you are not going to court over this. Unfortunately, when you are dealing with customs, this sometimes happens since there are no good substitutes for what you ordered and if the maker is popular he can get away with it. It is wrong, but you have no recourse, unless the maker does the right thing.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 8, 2018)

labor of love said:


> No, its relevant. And if that makes the buyer uncomfortable he should just walk away. Its just business.



Guess we'll have to agree to disagree how a business should be run. 
The maker had many opportunities to inform customer of any general price increase because he was in constant contact during the 3 years. Best to talk to the maker and try an reach a compromise that works for both parties.


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## Matus (Mar 8, 2018)

Eventually the name of the maker will drop through and this is not a good advetisement for the maker.

If I were the maker I would do the following:

1) honour the price I have quoted, or try very gently to work with the buyer as to why it would be nice if he/she should be paying more - on top of very delayed delivery date. If I see that the person is already pissed by the long delay I would not dare to throw a price hike in their face. Even if the knife is 'perfect' from the buyer's point of view, this kind of hassle is going to take a lot of that joy and fun away - and that is what the people spend their money on these luxury items (because if they want just a performance, than ka $200 gyuto from Japan will deliver about the same). 

2) take is as a lesson learned and only quote approximate price for a knife for the future and warn the customer that there might be a slight price increase coming because, well, everything gets more expensive over time and 3 years is a long time.

3) reconsider my business strategy, because apparently it yields unhappy customers.

If I were the buyer - I would - in a polite and as-objective-as-possible manner share the information with the rest of the comunity. Including the maker's name.


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## chinacats (Mar 8, 2018)

Have you laid out your concerns to the maker? I would by way of a forwarded email quoting the original price.


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## dwalker (Mar 8, 2018)

Matus said:


> Eventually the name of the maker will drop through and this is not a good advetisement for the maker.
> 
> If I were the maker I would do the following:
> 
> ...


Sounds about right to me. Especially the last part.


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## Bodine (Mar 8, 2018)

All of this could have been avoided. Blame rests on both parties.
Buyer should have asked for a contract in writing.
Builder should have offered one or explained why he or she could not,
and that increases could occur.


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## dwalker (Mar 8, 2018)

Bodine said:


> All of this could have been avoided. Blame rests on both parties.
> Buyer should have asked for a contract in writing.
> Builder should have offered one or explained why he or she could not,
> and that increases could occur.


Unless I'm missing something, the OP has the agreed upon price in writing in emails. Obviously, this is not a contract reviewed by attorneys and signed in front of a notary, but whatever happened to following through on your word? I am in a similar line of work and often have comissioned work that takes well over a year to deliver. Obviously, costs increase from time to time and my prices reflect that going forward, never retroactive on existing orders and certainly not when work is 2+ years late. **** happens and sometimes you have to eat it as a business owner in hopes of maintaining a future customer and reputation.


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## Barmoley (Mar 8, 2018)

Bodine said:


> All of this could have been avoided. Blame rests on both parties.
> Buyer should have asked for a contract in writing.
> Builder should have offered one or explained why he or she could not,
> and that increases could occur.



How is this the buyer's fault? An email with the quoted price and official prices on the website should be good enough as a "contract in writing" and in most cases they are. It is unreasonable to expect the buyer to know that the prices would go up from the agreed amount. Tracking steel prices, etc is not the buyers job, especially after the order was made. The maker had plenty of time and opportunity to discuss price increase with the client. Saying that prices are just rough estimates and that the maker forgot to update his website is just making excuses, unless the maker specifically stated that the price could be plus minus 15% due to market fluctuations, etc. I am only going by the information OP provided, so there could be other factors, but given what we were told blame does not rest on both parties....


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## ashy2classy (Mar 8, 2018)

cheflivengood said:


> All high end customs where I have supplied the handle wood, that price has been subtracted from the original quoted price OR the maker has a standard mark down for client supplied wood in the $50-75 range. Regardless of what has happened to the makers costs, he should have informed you of the elevated price BEFORE the build began, and IF the build ran into problems that needed a price increase it should have been verified by you before the knife was taken any further.



This ^^. 

It's all about communication. If you were told a price 3 years ago, how would you assume the price would be higher when delivered 2 years late? Really not sure how anyone can put blame on the buyer here, assuming a total price was given before the work began and no increase was communicated before or while the work was being done.


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## toddnmd (Mar 8, 2018)

Thanks for the range of responses and viewpoints to consider.

I think a lot of makers don't use contracts. Kudos to those who do (I know Haburn and Bloodroot both do). But a lot of people don't like making a formal contract, and most people aren't inclined to really push for one.

No deposit was paid, but I don't think that is the main factor here. A price was quoted at the time I went on his waiting list. That could have been discussed and renegotiated, and should have been clear before work was started--the point when I could have freely walked away. 

I understand that prices often increase, especially over a fairly long time-frame, but the issue was the lack of disclosing the price increase until so late in the process.



Matus said:


> Even if the knife is 'perfect' from the buyer's point of view, this kind of hassle is going to take a lot of that joy and fun away - and that is what the people spend their money on these luxury items (because if they want just a performance, than ka $200 gyuto from Japan will deliver about the same).



I think Matus captured the essence of my feelings. It sucks when something you've been looking forward to for years suddenly has a negative association.


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## WildBoar (Mar 8, 2018)

Todd, I had a 3 year wait on a knife a while back. The last half of that wait was due to issues at the Maker's end, including some lost/ misplaced emails and contact info. In the end the knife was completed. The Maker indicated to me that I was getting a serious deal, as his prices had risen a lot over the previous 1-2 years. I was set back a bit by the way that was presented to me, especially since the delays were not of my making or even due to an extensive wait list -- they primarily occurred due to a heat-treating failure, and the heat treatment did not take place until a while after the billet was forged and the blade roughly shaped. I honestly did not know how to respond, other then thanking him for honoring the pricing we had discussed in our email chain when my name initially came up on the waiting list.

So to me, if the delay was not of your doing, I feel the Maker has an obligation to honor the pricing he provided at the time you got on the list.it is "just business", and if the Maker wants his business to succeed he needs to fulfill his/ her obligations to the customer. Word travels fast in these here parts...


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## Pensacola Tiger (Mar 8, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> Thanks for the range of responses and viewpoints to consider.
> 
> I think a lot of makers don't use contracts. Kudos to those who do (I know Haburn and Bloodroot both do). But a lot of people don't like making a formal contract, and most people aren't inclined to really push for one.
> 
> ...



FWIW, I once bought and paid for a blade from a well-known maker who promised that it would be finished (handle made and blade polished) in a month. 866 days later (yes, that's 2 years, 4 months, 15 days later) the completed knife shipped after broken promise after broken promise about completion. The negative association was so great that I sold the knife soon after I received it.

Moral of the story? Never pay for promises. I applaud the approach several makers use - no money changes hands until the finished knife is ready to ship.


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## panda (Mar 8, 2018)

if you bought a shig for $250 3 years ago, would you sell it now for same price? double standard.

i had on order a sukenari honyaki last year and i couldnt wait any longer (this was only 9 months, lol) plus i knew i wouldnt be able to afford it after their recent price hikes so i just pulled out from the sale. i definitely wouldnt have thought to complain about the price increase, this is how the world works.

you should just get the knife and sell it here on BST, i'm pretty sure people that are at the end of the list would rather pay you a lot more than list price now than to wait.


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## ashy2classy (Mar 8, 2018)

panda said:


> if you bought a shig for $250 3 years ago, would you sell it now for same price? double standard.
> 
> i had on order a sukenari honyaki last year and i couldnt wait any longer (this was only 9 months, lol) plus i knew i wouldnt be able to afford it after their recent price hikes so i just pulled out from the sale. i definitely wouldnt have thought to complain about the price increase, this is how the world works.
> 
> you should just get the knife and sell it here on BST, i'm pretty sure people that are at the end of the list would rather pay you a lot more than list price now than to wait.



Were you told the price would increase or could increase? I'm still lost how there's anyone taking the maker's side here if a price was given and never communicated that there would be an increase. *SHRUG*


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## parbaked (Mar 8, 2018)

I'm still lost as to who the maker is...


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## dwalker (Mar 8, 2018)

panda said:


> if you bought a shig for $250 3 years ago, would you sell it now for same price? double standard.




I would if I told you I would. No double standard for me. An agreement means something to me even if it doesn't have the formality of a binding contract. In this case, it's hard for the OP to walk away considering he already has a substantial investment in the handle material that I assume is on the knife. I don't know who the maker is, but if the agreement was I'll build you x knife for y price, I can't possibly understand everyone's attitude that the buyer should just pay more and be happy. Maybe I'm a little old fashioned. I took delivery of a knife yesterday that I custom ordered from Japan many many months ago. Since the time of the order, prices have gone up substantially but nobody asked me for more money, nor should they. The agreement was honored.


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## labor of love (Mar 8, 2018)

ashy2classy said:


> Were you told the price would increase or could increase? I'm still lost how there's anyone taking the maker's side here if a price was given and never communicated that there would be an increase. *SHRUG*





Weve only heard one side of this story. And that side indicates that the other side is completely at fault for everything.


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## panda (Mar 8, 2018)

well that's where real world comes into effect, not everyone plays by unwritten rules. i'm pretty sure the maker in question is american to have audacity to ask for more than original agreed price. 

to answer a previous response, i was not informed of a looming price increase but i saw that their prices had gone up across the board and i just assumed it would trickle down to my order as well which i do not take offense to, i didnt see it as a big deal what so ever. toyama used to be really cheap now theyre a bit expensive..

these types of threads are always single sided and never gets the results originally intended.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 8, 2018)

It would be good to hear from the other side.


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## ashy2classy (Mar 8, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Weve only heard one side of this story. And that side indicates that the other side is completely at fault for everything.



Very true. These threads tend to spiral out of control even when the issue is pretty simple (at least IMO). But, as you mention, that's based on the information as presented. I have no reason to doubt what Todd has posted. But hearing both sides always gives a full picture of the situation, assuming all information is accurate.


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## toddnmd (Mar 8, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> It would be good to hear from the other side.



And now you will. At least indirectly, from me.

Before that, I will say that I truly tried to present things as factually accurate as I could. I didn't intentionally omit any relevant details. Yes, there is the other side. But the maker didn't provide any explanation of the price increase, just that there was one. 

After reading the earlier replies here, sleeping on it, and a few messages by PM, I wrote the maker this morning. Told him I was disappointed about the price increase, and asked if we could compromise on a price in between his initial quote and then the delivery price. 

He replied fairly quickly, said he had been thinking about the situation, took responsibility for the lack of communication, and said he would honor the initial price.

After paying, I sent him a response, and thanked him for his response. I mostly didn't want to have the negative issues about pricing to taint my impressions of the knife, as it is something I have been looking forward to for some time now.

So, I'm glad to report this was resolved amicably and respectfully.


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## ashy2classy (Mar 8, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> And now you will. At least indirectly, from me.
> 
> Before that, I will say that I truly tried to present things as factually accurate as I could. I didn't intentionally omit any relevant details. Yes, there is the other side. But the maker didn't provide any explanation of the price increase, just that there was one.
> 
> ...



Great to hear! Looking forward to seeing the actual knife. :knife: :doublethumbsup:


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## Bodine (Mar 8, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> How is this the buyer's fault? An email with the quoted price and official prices on the website should be good enough as a "contract in writing" and in most cases they are. ....



The buyer would have solid ground to stand on, and both would have understood from the beginning what the terms and conditions were to be.
Anytime you commission someone to do work for you, you should have an official contract.
Over time, details can be forgotten, what one says, and one hears can be perceived differently by
each party, a contract keeps things black and white.

Just my opinion.


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## WildBoar (Mar 8, 2018)

Glad to hear it was resolved, and in what I would consider to be the proper manner.

Looking forward to seeing the knife. ECG is only 1-1/2 months away!


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 8, 2018)

Excellent resolution and in my mind the right one for all concerned.


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## panda (Mar 8, 2018)

so you started this thread without first emailing the maker saying you wanted him to honor original price??? LOL!!!!!!


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## Jovidah (Mar 8, 2018)

Sure hope Koki is gonna honor the pricing on my Fujiwara FKM petty a week from now! Thing cost a fortune!


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## WildBoar (Mar 8, 2018)

panda said:


> so you started this thread without first emailing the maker saying you wanted him to honor original price??? LOL!!!!!!


He started it by indicated what had been presented to him, and asking if people though he should suck it up, or go back to the maker. And he got enough opinions that he decided it was worthwhile to go back to the maker.

C'mon Panda, you should be the first to admit not everyone is as blunt/ direct as you are. Some have a 'softer' side, and are more geared towards conflict-avoidance :biggrin:


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## panda (Mar 8, 2018)

when it comes to money, everyone should be blunt. there is no grey area here. but i get it now that you put it in that perspective, he was seeking advice to give him courage to say to the maker instead of being scared.


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## Bill13 (Mar 8, 2018)

Glad to hear this was resolved and both parties are satisfied. Most importantly can't wait to see and try the knife!


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## WildBoar (Mar 8, 2018)

panda said:


> when it comes to money, everyone should be blunt. there is no grey area here. but i get it now that you put it in that perspective, he was seeking advice to give him courage to say to the maker instead of being scared.


exactly :thumbsup: I've met Todd a few times, and he strikes me as one who would proceed cautiously in a potentially contentious situation (heh, prove me wrong, Todd :razz


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## brainsausage (Mar 8, 2018)

Theres very few situations where proceeding cautiously with the most amount of information possible wont benefit you. Be it bar fight or business transaction, its best to consider your options before removing them.


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## rickg17 (Mar 8, 2018)

panda said:


> if you bought a shig for $250 3 years ago, would you sell it now for same price? double standard.



If I was promised a shig for $250 and the seller dicked around for 3 years, then wanted to raise the price that's not on me, the buyer. That's the seller's problem. 

Same here. Maybe steel etc did rise in price over three years. But the knife maker *took three frigging years*. That isn't on the buyer. Just because people are skilled craftsmen does not release them from acting professionally.


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## rickg17 (Mar 8, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> And now you will. At least indirectly, from me.
> 
> Before that, I will say that I truly tried to present things as factually accurate as I could. I didn't intentionally omit any relevant details. Yes, there is the other side. But the maker didn't provide any explanation of the price increase, just that there was one.
> 
> ...



Honestly? You should have asked the maker about things before starting this. Always go back and try to resolve things first. That's basic.


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## brainsausage (Mar 8, 2018)

So, youve never asked a friend or loved ones advice before moving forward in a certain situation? A lot can happen in 24 hours. Pms, emails, on and offline discussions. Its always better to get a varied view before moving forward if at all possible. At no point was the maker called out and in fact its a productive conversation in general if you read through the thread. Dont be so quick to judge.


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## parbaked (Mar 8, 2018)

To start a thread in a forum like this before even communicating one's concerns to the other party is not cool.
Couldn't this have been resolved if you just informed the maker you were surprised by the price difference before asking a public forum what to do?
Glad it was resolved amicably buyer has to bear the responsibility that he/she didn't even talk to the maker before starting a thread...


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## HRC_64 (Mar 8, 2018)

asking for advise instead of acting rashly is common sense


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## Barmoley (Mar 8, 2018)

Isn't this what the forum is about? To ask advice and discuss likes/dislikes.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 8, 2018)

Also, this ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hold-up_problem


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## rickg17 (Mar 8, 2018)

brainsausage said:


> So, youve never asked a friend or loved ones advice before moving forward in a certain situation? A lot can happen in 24 hours. Pms, emails, on and offline discussions. Its always better to get a varied view before moving forward if at all possible. At no point was the maker called out and in fact its a productive conversation in general if you read through the thread. Dont be so quick to judge.



I'm not judging (much) but in almost every case I've ever seen where there's an issue like this it helps when the parties actually talk about the issue (as it did here). After all, that was my first question when I started reading this. I thought. "Huh, why not just ask the maker about honoring the quote?" I mean, it's the obvious initial step and look at what simply asking did - the OP got what they wanted in the first place and the six pages back and forth really weren't needed.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 8, 2018)

because that's a naive way to negotiate...which is what you are doing in that situation...when you go back and "ask" about "it"


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## brainsausage (Mar 8, 2018)

Formatting issues. Hold on a sec


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## brainsausage (Mar 8, 2018)

rickg17 said:


> I'm not judging (much) but in almost every case I've ever seen where there's an issue like this it helps when the parties actually talk about the issue (as it did here). After all, that was my first question when I started reading this. I thought. "Huh, why not just ask the maker about honoring the quote?" I mean, it's the obvious initial step and look at what simply asking did - the OP got what they wanted in the first place and the six pages back and forth really weren't needed.



Its much more complicated than that in this case, trust me...

In regards to the larger issue at hand- Ive been on this forum for 6 years, and most issues in my time here have been resolved amicably after discussion with multiple parties. And if not amicably at the very least resolved in a manner that was less dramatic, detrimental, and over all beneficial in the most part to both parties. As I said above, having access to more data is typically informative when trying to resolve potentially difficult situations. This thread, as many others do as well, revealed an interesting cross section of opinions and experiences, hence the concept of an open yet focused forum such as this.


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## McMan (Mar 8, 2018)

brainsausage said:


> Be it bar fight or business transaction, its best to consider your options before removing them.


^^ Wisest one-liner I've heard all day!


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## alterwisser (Mar 9, 2018)

dwalker said:


> You could refuse the knife and demand your wood back in it's original condition, or offer to sell it to the maker. 3 years ago the price was ~$100. Prices went up last year, now it's $300.



I like that !!


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## alterwisser (Mar 9, 2018)

labor of love said:


> No, its relevant. And if that makes the buyer uncomfortable he should just walk away. Its just business.



Well, the wood he purchased is part of the knife now..... what to do about that?


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## alterwisser (Mar 9, 2018)

Its pretty obvious who the maker is, and I dont think it wouldve changed anything for him and the demand for his knives if he wouldve played hardball....

That being said, I understand the frustration of the OP and I share it. I sold 2 knives now that I really love because they remind me of all the BS back and forth with the maker.

One other I returned the knife and will never buy from again. There are enough makers out there worthy of my money and time.

That being said: Shout out to Robin Dalman, Bloodroot and Marko for honoring prices.

BRB even said theyll Honor old prices from over 2 years ago when I approached them about changing my order from a simple WA to a Western integral!

Thank you gentlemen [emoji6]


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## dough (Mar 9, 2018)

Good ending glad it worked out for you. 
Hope the knife lives up to the three year wait with a tinge of drama


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## toddnmd (Mar 9, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> asking for advise instead of acting rashly is common sense



This is the essence of my starting this thread. Some may disagree, but I see a valuable and productive discussion, incorporating a variety of viewpoints, and which may be of benefit (hopefully) in future transactions, for both buyers and makers.

I thought it was worthwhile to consider other people's input before taking action. We can all be biased toward our own position (and I'm sure I have my own biases), but my intent was to gather additional information and viewpoints, and give them due consideration, before taking action. That's how I do things, and I do appreciate the various responses here. 

There were indeed some clear benefits of opening this conversation, some of which were carried out by PM. I heard from another long-term and respected member who was in a very similar situation, and our conversation was helpful. Also, based on PMs, I have a strong suspicion that the maker either read this thread, or was at least notified of its general contents. Which very likely could have helped bring out a positive resolution. 

Collecting information, and collecting my thoughts, probably helped me to get the right tone in my response to the maker--at least I hope so. 

Initially, two possible outcomes would have been to just pay what the maker requested or to decline to pay for and take delivery of the knife (and would leave in question how to resolve the issue of the wood supplied). Both of those had significant downsides, and I wanted to proceed in a way that made either of those outcomes less likely. I think it was helpful to get the broader view before continuing the discussion with the maker.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I do appreciate everyone who weighed in.


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## Razor (Mar 10, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> And now you will. At least indirectly, from me.
> 
> Before that, I will say that I truly tried to present things as factually accurate as I could. I didn't intentionally omit any relevant details. Yes, there is the other side. But the maker didn't provide any explanation of the price increase, just that there was one.
> 
> ...



This has to be the dumbest thread I have read in a long time. Had you simply contacted the maker with your concerns rather than whining here, your post would have been a proud picture of the knife and kudos to the maker.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 10, 2018)

Razor said:


> This has to be the dumbest thread I have read



says a lot about you...none of which is flattering. 



labor of love said:


> Its been dead for some time now. Honestly, the premise was pretty silly.


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## labor of love (Mar 10, 2018)

@HRC, where did you find that quote of mine? Im pretty sure its not in reference to anything in this thread.


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## panda (Mar 10, 2018)

out of context for the win!!


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## JohnnyChance (Mar 10, 2018)

labor of love said:


> @HRC, where did you find that quote of mine? Im pretty sure its not in reference to anything in this thread.



If you click on the little blue box with the >> arrows it will bring you to the original location of the quote.


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## aaamax (Mar 10, 2018)

as my old buddy Rodney used to say, "can't we all just get along??"... 
I actually enjoyed the thread... 
no harm, no foul.


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## labor of love (Mar 10, 2018)

JohnnyChance said:


> If you click on the little blue box with the >> arrows it will bring you to the original location of the quote.



Thanks. I said that quote in a diff thread
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ons-of-White-Steel/page10?p=521331#post521331


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## NO ChoP! (Mar 10, 2018)

Another random quote.

"Itch; use soap. Itch and drip; go to doctor."


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## HRC_64 (Mar 10, 2018)

panda said:


> out of context



:rofl2:


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## cheflarge (Mar 11, 2018)

A lot of judgemental posts from not so familiar names....... I wonder why we can never seem to keep people around........ Hmmmm


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## rickg17 (Mar 11, 2018)

cheflarge said:


> A lot of judgemental posts from not so familiar names....... I wonder why we can never seem to keep people around........ Hmmmm



Do you simply want the same dozen people to all have the same opinion? I mean, I'm happy to leave. But it's silly to 

1) have a discussion forum and then complain about differing opinions and

2) To note you can't keep people around but then complain about new people who don't agree with you.


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## rickg17 (Mar 11, 2018)

brainsausage said:


> So, youve never asked a friend or loved ones advice before moving forward in a certain situation? A lot can happen in 24 hours. Pms, emails, on and offline discussions. Its always better to get a varied view before moving forward if at all possible. At no point was the maker called out and in fact its a productive conversation in general if you read through the thread. Dont be so quick to judge.



When I have a situation like OP's I usually simply ask the other party what's up. "Hey, I thought we'd agreed on $N for this and I see you've billed me $Y... what's up?" After all, all of the posts here, the PMs, etc... vs a one paragraph email? That feels... odd. Different strokes, of course. but this wasn't a very complex situation. In other cases, yes, the problem is more complex and discussion has more obvious value. 

As far as being judgmental, I at least am not judging the OP, but some of us are wondering why the obvious step of simply talking to the maker first about a straightforward issue wasn't taken. As above, this is a discussion forum. It's odd to complain about discussion in such a place.

Finally, I see a lot of people not raise an issue with a vendor and then take off on them in social media... from a bad meal at a restaurant to a defective product, etc - and it feels like so much could have simply been avoided by talking to the other party in a straightforward manner about the issue.


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## panda (Mar 12, 2018)

many people just avoid any sort of confrontation if at all possible. even if unavoidable they'll try to sideswipe the situation or passive/aggressive it.


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## Anton (Mar 12, 2018)

rickg17 said:


> Finally, I see a lot of people not raise an issue with a vendor and then take off on them in social media... from a bad meal at a restaurant to a defective product, etc - and it feels like so much could have simply been avoided by talking to the other party in a straightforward manner about the issue.


 
so true. Hard to believe these are grown adults, so weak of them, lame really


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## panda (Mar 12, 2018)

it's like when chicks get mad at you and you have no idea why. when you ask them whats up they say nothing i'm fine.. but then go 'well i just feel like..' so and so.


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## Anton (Mar 12, 2018)

panda said:


> many people just avoid any sort of confrontation if at all possible. even if unavoidable they'll try to sideswipe the situation or passive/aggressive it.


that's a dark hole, and a sad one. 

I find less and less people able to hold a proper bar conversation which may get into some basic constructive arguement, even if it barely gets into hairy issues.


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## panda (Mar 12, 2018)

i enjoy when people i meet at the bar tell me the same story they told me 15 minutes ago, i just play along and see what details they change about it the second time around, but throw in random sarcastic questions to keep them on their toes.


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## Midsummer (Mar 16, 2018)

I am sure that had this been an issue with the cost of a utility or necessity that this thread would not have been conceived. There is the emotional component involved. As was noted earlier in the thread functionality was not a real consideration. The type of wood in the handle was a consideration. A popular maker was a consideration. The OP did not say that he had used one of this makers knives and it had so fulfilled his unique needs (not wants) that this order was necessary. This was about a commissioned piece of art. Art has an emotional component and that is why we are willing to pay at above the functional value of the object. The uniqueness or rarity of the object can give value to the object. A flawless 3 karat diamond has considerably more value than a small lump of coal even though you can burn the coal for heat. If you can't sell the diamond then you are s.o.l. when the temperature drops.

I came to this forum to learn about knives. I am focused on function. I prefer a burnt chestnut or magnolia handle to a highly polished, heavy, rare wood or other material (Walrus penis scales were on a knife on BST a few years ago). I want to have a blade that remains sharp and that sharpens to a high degree rather than maintaining a perfect finish. I love looking at the knives as works of art and I marvel. I marvel more when I cut with a knife that just seems to make me better at preparing my food. Everyone has the preferences. We all come down differently on form vs. function.

I may not have started this thread, or I may have. In any case I do not see how the OP has done anything wrong. If I find that tomorrow I really want that "pretty" knife, that "popular maker" knife that is so picture perfect; then, because of this thread, I will make sure the maker and I have a good understanding. Thanks to the OP. Thanks to all who voiced their opinions. I learned from everyone............ Some more than others


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## Matus (Mar 16, 2018)

I would say this thread is well past its bed time ...


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## Triggaaar (Mar 16, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> Told him I was disappointed about the price increase, and asked if we could compromise on a price in between his initial quote and then the delivery price.
> 
> He replied fairly quickly, said he had been thinking about the situation, took responsibility for the lack of communication, and said he would honor the initial price.


So after you offered more than the original price, he honoured the lower price - that's great news, well done manufacturer.

Although you didn't pay a deposit, you did send him a piece of wood that cost $100, so that's pretty similar to a deposit. I'm glad he honoured the price, that was the right thing to do.


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## cheflarge (Mar 16, 2018)

Amen. &#128077;


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## Dan P. (Mar 16, 2018)

Midsummer said:


> Walrus penis scales



I read the whole thread, but this was the only part I liked.


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## Butters (Mar 17, 2018)

^ this

walrus willy is the next big thing...


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## Dan P. (Mar 19, 2018)

Butters said:


> ^ this
> 
> walrus willy is the next big thing...



Took me a while to work out that it was scales as in knife tang scales, not as in fish scales, not as in walruses have scales on their penis. Or maybe they do?


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## Barclid (Mar 19, 2018)

I just assumed it was narwhal horn and the walrus penis bit was for comedic effect. Saw an awesome piece of narwhal horn at the Takamura factory. I'd hate to see the price of the knife that ends up on though.


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## parbaked (Mar 19, 2018)

Barclid said:


> the walrus penis bit was for comedic effect.



That is so disrespectful to walrus penis...shocked!


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## dmourati (Mar 20, 2018)

http://mermaidsupplies.dk/collection/walrus-penile-bone


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## Midsummer (Mar 20, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baculum


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## Chef Doom (Mar 20, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> So, here's my situation . . . I got on a maker's list for a custom piece three years ago, and was quoted a price (and was originally told the wait was about 10 months). Had occasional check-ins, and did my best to be patient with delays. Today I found out my knife was finished (three years later), but was quoted a higher price than expected. Not hugely higher, but I roughly 15%, higher, and not on an inexpensive knife. When I inquired, I was told that prices increased last year (this is the first I've heard of it). I'll also note that the asked for price is higher than the price that is currently on the maker's website/order page.
> 
> So, what to do?
> 
> ...


Had you had saved $20 a month over the past 3 years to cover any potential inflated prices than it wouldn't be an issue. 

At least the work was completed. Inflation is a pain for us all. Got to roll with the punches. Cost of living increases don't pay for themselves. If would like you can always blame Donald Trump for your woes.


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## Chef Doom (Mar 20, 2018)

Raleighcook15 said:


> How is he even delayed by two years? I would be enraged. I would offer the price agreed upon and that's it.


Lies, all lies. You would asst most be perturbed. Maybe even flustered. But enraged? Hardly


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## Chef Doom (Mar 20, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Maybe after 3 years he has forgotten the price you both agreed upon. Have you discussed the discrepancy. Maybe send him a copy of the emails where you discussed the price. If prices increased last year it was incumbent on him to inform you. He's not going to sell the knife from under you since he used your wood blanks. I would have a friendly chat and see what he suggests.


By friendly chat do you mean send in your goons to offer a price he can't refuse?


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## StonedEdge (Mar 20, 2018)

You guys still tripping over this?


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## Barclid (Mar 20, 2018)

I don't know about you, man. I was talking about some good old fashioned walrus penis.


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## Butters (Mar 20, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> Lies, all lies. You would asst most be perturbed. Maybe even flustered. But enraged? Hardly



Engorged perhaps. Inflated like the prices of pure walrus willy. 

I wonder if its hard to erect handles from it. Maybe it takes two hands.


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## Dan P. (Mar 20, 2018)

Butters said:


> Engorged perhaps. Inflated like the prices of pure walrus willy.
> 
> I wonder if its hard to erect handles from it. Maybe it takes two hands.



-boning knife-....heh!


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## Chef Doom (Mar 21, 2018)

After reading the rest of this thread, I must say that I am sad and confused that so many of you have issues with someone coming to the forums to get opinions when dealing with personal or business issues. Something that seems simple to YOU might not be simple to the next person. With everyone's opinions and viewpoints contributing to a reasonable resolution, you may have prevented a murder suicide.


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## daveb (Mar 21, 2018)

Thanks Doom,

You seem pretty simple[emoji41]


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## Anton (Mar 21, 2018)

wow


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## panda (Mar 23, 2018)

leave it up to doom to make things weird, lmao


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## bkultra (Mar 23, 2018)

panda said:


> leave it up to doom to make things weird, lmao



Funny Doom reminds me of another user that makes my job as an admin more interesting


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