# Mizuno Holy Grail Gyuto



## QCDawg (Feb 26, 2017)

Suminagashi ao/dx (do they make 270mm?) or honyaki blue dx? One of those is going to happen in 2017. I love the grind of my "shinogi" blue#2 270mm.. so that may factor in (I feel like I have heard one or the other, above..is ground that way?). That and the 240/270 length component will weigh on me.


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## fujiyama (Feb 26, 2017)

I don't see the Suminagashi in 270, but there's a good chance you can special order one from JCK.

The two knives are very different from your current Mizuno, for example

240mm Hontanren is 3.1mm at spine
240mm DX Honyaki is 3.9mm at spine 
240mm Suminagashi is 2.6mm at spine

270mm DX Honyaki is 4.3mm at spine 
270mm Hontanren is 3.1 at spine

It's hard to justify the AO/DX price. The special forging process and, essentially, a damascus finish raise the price substantially. B#1 steel is a special steel but not as hard to quench or temper as Super Blue and should be reasonably affordable. Honyaki B#2 should have equal edge retention and arguable a better blade.

I look forward to hearing others opinions on this, as I'm very interested myself. Please correct me if I'm inaccurate. I have not handled these knives myself. I did a bit of research and spoke to some knife owners recently. I went for the 240mm W#2 Honyaki. No notable difference between the W#2 and B#2 grind or profile, and very minimal difference in edge retention. Honyaki knives generally have good retention, and I will mainly use mine at home in a rotation of gyutos so the W#2 made most sense. The white steel will be a joy to sharpen!


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## khashy (Feb 26, 2017)

Worth mentioning that the blue will not have as defined a hamon as the white. It's deeper hardening and more hazy:


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## Salty dog (Feb 27, 2017)

The question is subjective. Everyone has personal preferences so there is no right answer. For me, I consider my cutting style, usage, the other knives I have and the personal relationship with the maker and vendor. (Albeit distant and infrequent.)

I've used and owned countless gyutos. Including two Kramers. The one knife I would never sell is my Mizuno Tanrenjo Suminigashi. I think I've owned it for six years or so and is used in a professional kitchen. 

One thing about it that may not be apparent is the suminigashi cladding has texture. You can feel the smooth ridges and valleys on the cladding. It's subtle but noticeable. You would think that would hurt performance but I think it actually helps. I assume they are made the same way today.

It's a sexy little 240 and it's seen me through a "complicated" six years. It remains a constant. When I pick it up it's like putting on a comfortable pair of slippers. That's part of the reason for the love affair. You'd have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. (I've always said I'll probably die on the line and it will probably be in my hand.)

But that's just me. Others may have different opinions, this is mine.


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## QCDawg (Feb 27, 2017)

Salty, I've watched all your vids.. fabulous. So outside of flying to &#127471;&#127477; to meet Master Mizuno (and Koki should grab me @ the airport) your opinion reigns supreme. Please keep posting vids and passing on your experiences..


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## QCDawg (Feb 28, 2017)

I thought...I had heard the suminagashi had the same profile and grind as the "shinogi" gyuto that I have. I wonder if that is an option...and a similar option for the honyakis.


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## QCDawg (Mar 1, 2017)

Salty, if I might ask.. what has been your "reactivity experience" with the suminagashi? The iron cladding on my shinogi is "unpredictable". And I have tried multiple forced ones. It's pretty. It just "does whatever it wants".


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## Salty dog (Mar 2, 2017)

The cladding remains shiny and is easy to clean. The edge has a permanent patina.


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## toddnmd (Mar 2, 2017)

Salty, could you elaborate on your experiences with Mizuno honyaki vs. suminigashi? (your inbox is full . . .)


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## Salty dog (Mar 2, 2017)

Emptied it.


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## Jovidah (Mar 2, 2017)

Just out of sheer curiosity - it's not like I can afford them - but why is the suminagashi more expensive than the honyaki? Isn't it usually the other way around? Or are all the 'cheaper' damascus knives simply made from pre-fab damascus blanks?


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## QCDawg (Mar 2, 2017)

I would love to know the answers to all of those questions too! Fwiw.. Koki had given me some answers, as I headed towards the Grail:

From Koki:
Mizuno Tanrenjo Ao Hagane DX Suminagashi and Honyaki (DX) Wa Gyuto does not have Shinogi as your Hontanren Wa Gyuto. But if you prefer the blade grind angle (with Shinogi), we will check the possibility with Mizuno Tanrenjo to make similar blade grind.

Normally Mizuno Tanrenjo's Wa Gyuto blade length is measured from Machi to blade tip. For example, Wa Gyuto 240mm has approximate cutting edge length 230mm. Blade Width 48 to 50mm.

If we compare, Mizuno Honyaki Wa Gyuto has thicker blade than Ao Hagane DX Suminagashi. But if you have any preference (for example, you prefer thinner blade or thicker blade), we will work with Mizuno Tanrenjo for preparing your request item. (Mizuno will select the most suitable for your needs from their inventory

We will also check if Mizuno Tanrenjo makes the Ao Hagane DX Suminagashi Wa Gyuto 270mm and we will quote the price for you too.


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## Salty dog (Mar 4, 2017)

toddnmd said:


> Salty, could you elaborate on your experiences with Mizuno honyaki vs. suminigashi? (your inbox is full . . .)



Both the white and blue honyakis have relatively thick blades. Which make them heavy for the length. The dimensions of the suminigashi are smaller all over. Thckness, length and height. Because of this the grind is different. The sumi's grind is more subtle because of the difference in dimensions. The obvious weight difference causes a difference in balance. You feel the honyaki's weight more toward the heel of your palm whereas the sumi has a more even feel in the hand and less noticeable because of the weight difference.
Less knuckle room with the sumi because of height. I generally use it for more technical cutting and the honyaki for more heavy duty use. Both are good cutters but in a different way.


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## Chuckles (Mar 4, 2017)

I agree with everything Salty wrote. I will say that the heft of the Mizuno Honyaki has decreased over time. I do think they are still meatier than the suminagashi that Salty has which is the only one I have ever seen in person. 

Here is a link to show the choil shots of a new Honyaki compared to Salty's original white steel Honyaki that is in his YouTube video. 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13895-Choil-shots?p=428669&viewfull=1#post428669


The newer Honyaki is 40 grams lighter than the old one.


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## Customfan (Mar 4, 2017)

Good to know Charlie, this only make me want one more.... 

Can you guys weigh in on you preference and insight between the SD and DX? Have you used them? Salty... if you had to do it again, which one would you get?

Basically, are there more considerations other than the age old white vs blue preference?


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## Chuckles (Mar 4, 2017)

I had a newer DX. The choil and spine were rounded and polished better and it just seemed like it was finished to a higher level than the newer white steel version. The hamon was less visible though. Can't speak to weight distribution because it had a Marko handle on it. 

It's not a good photo but it can be seen here:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...huckles-Knives?p=360985&viewfull=1#post360985

Here are Mizunos from a get together. The bottom knife is the mighty original white steel Honyaki and just above it is a newer blue steel Honyaki. Top two are San Mai. You can kind of see how beefy that original white steel knife is. 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...Drinking-Party?p=344136&viewfull=1#post344136


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## Silky (Mar 4, 2017)

Hi Chuckles, I remember you expressing on the forums a preference for the 240mm Mizuno over the 270mm. What exactly about the two made you prefer the 240mm? And I guess there's no way to know, but do you or Salty think a suminagashi in 270mm would result in a loss of the qualities that make the suminagashi so unique?


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## QCDawg (Mar 5, 2017)

Silky said:


> Hi Chuckles, I remember you expressing on the forums a preference for the 240mm Mizuno over the 270mm. What exactly about the two made you prefer the 240mm? And I guess there's no way to know, but do you or Salty think a suminagashi in 270mm would result in a loss of the qualities that make the suminagashi so unique?



I would like to know this answer too!


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## Customfan (Apr 22, 2017)

I have some interest in keeping this thread alive...

What a cool oportunity to compare those mizunos in real time Charlie...

can we conclude a couple of points?
- so DX seems better finished than white?
- hamon is hazier do to heat treatment on DX.
- Newer mizunos seem lighter, slimmer and a tad flatter than old? 40gr.
- Suminagashi has some texture that helps with sticktion (Dont know if the newer ones are the same).
- some members have expressed prefference of 240 over 270 and viceversa?

Questions:
- Can anyone weigh in on 240 vs 270 profile?
- is there a difference in profile between 240new vs 240old? SX and DX
- is there a difference in profile between 240SX vs 240DX both new?
- does anyone own SX and DX 240mm new?

- anyone have experience in the practical steel diference between the Tanrejo Aogami DX blue 2 vs Blue #1 (the one in the suminagashi). The web site says that Blue #1 has more: Chromium (0.30 -0.50%) and Tungsten / Wolfram (1.50- 2.00%) than Blue Steel No.2,

Might need to talk to koki but would still appreciate if anyone has more feedback...


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## zitangy (Apr 23, 2017)

khashy said:


> Worth mentioning that the blue will not have as defined a hamon as the white. It's deeper hardening and more hazy:
> 
> 
> I do find that the hamon line on the blue can be nice . I cant tell the difference yet... I suspect that most of the makers just do a kasumi finish ( with a stick and soft rubber attach to it and some combination of mud powder)on the softer part just to get the contrast and job done even though you pay extra for a mirror polish abt usd60 per side. If you remove the kasumi finish and polish or etch it...you will get a very very decent reflection under the contrast with a distinct line and also bordered by a white line .... for want of a descriptive term... I call it eyelids
> ...


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## ecrphoto (Jun 20, 2017)

Must....resist....


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## Customfan (Jun 20, 2017)

Resisting is futile, tried for the longest and succumbed! Price is just going to keep going up....

They are on their way! 

I worked closely to get a thin blade and the right profile.... Haven't been this stoked in quite a while!!!! :scared4:


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## QCDawg (Jun 21, 2017)

I passed on a 270 that Koki and I had been talking about for...6 months?. The wait...Lord knows they take their sweet time @ Mizuno... and the price just caught up with me. I'll wait on a Kitaeji for the $$$ they want @ Mizuno.


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## wind88 (Jun 21, 2017)

Has anyone tried both the Mizuno honyaki and the Togashi blue 1 honyaki from K&S?

The new price for the blue 2 Mizuno is about the same as the Togashi blue 1.

The profiles look similar and the Togashi is really mighty as well (mine is about 55mm at the heel, 232mm long and weight 268g with ebony handle).


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## Wdestate (Jun 21, 2017)

wind88 said:


> Has anyone tried both the Mizuno honyaki and the Togashi blue 1 honyaki from K&S?
> 
> The new price for the blue 2 Mizuno is about the same as the Togashi blue 1.
> 
> The profiles look similar and the Togashi is really mighty as well (mine is about 55mm at the heel, 232mm long and weight 268g with ebony handle).



not answering your question exactly but maybe this is semi helpful. I have a Togashi blue 1 honyaki (not from k&s) and had a mizuno blue 2 honyaki from about 3-4 years ago that i sold off. The Mizuno was a thicker at the spine and at the edge then the togashi and i did not care for the grind as much. not to say it was a poor performer by any stretch of the means just thicker in all dimensions my 240 if i recall was actually more like 228mm at the edge dont remeber height but it was shorter then 55 at the heel probably more 50ish


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## Customfan (Jun 22, 2017)

:eyebrow:


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## QCDawg (Mar 17, 2018)

Figured Id refresh this. Big Mizuno fan. Love my dammy 240. But heres my B1 240 shinogi (which btw, is cosmetic) after some work by the #murdersharp maestro... @*********. It had nice bones.. now its a freak (and has a shinogi). Thanks Kev!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yBulocEZmdZJCuov1


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## Anton (Apr 17, 2018)

QCDawg said:


> Figured Id refresh this. Big Mizuno fan. Love my dammy 240. But heres my B1 240 shinogi (which btw, is cosmetic) after some work by the #murdersharp maestro... @*********. It had nice bones.. now its a freak (and has a shinogi). Thanks Kev!
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/yBulocEZmdZJCuov1



album is empty?


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## panda (Apr 17, 2018)

if i ever get another miz it would be a custom length white #2 honyaki version. i dont like the profile/tip on suminagashi version


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## Anton (Apr 17, 2018)

panda said:


> if i ever get another miz it would be a custom length white #2 honyaki version. i dont like the profile/tip on suminagashi version



250mm? I think height is spot on


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## panda (Apr 17, 2018)

240 is like 230 so i would ask for a 260 lol


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## bkultra (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm thinking of asking them to make me one with 250-255 heel to tip.


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## HRC_64 (Apr 17, 2018)

Jon from JKI was saying the JDM smiths 
are usually OK with making half sizes 
so 255 (nominal) would be worth an inquiry
if that that understanding is correct


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## Anton (Apr 17, 2018)

bkultra said:


> I'm thinking of asking them to make me one with 250-255 heel to tip.



bulk discount?...


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## Neko (May 8, 2018)

Anton said:


> bulk discount?...



I'm interested in a Miz honyaki gyuto if a group is possible.


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## bkultra (May 8, 2018)

I just noticed this... Typically there isn't a break on the cost, its just easier to get the request accepted if there is more demand for the same custom order.


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## toddnmd (May 8, 2018)

bkultra said:


> I just noticed this... Typically there isn't a break on the cost, its just easier to get the request accepted if there is more demand for the same custom order.



A couple weeks ago, I ordered an intermediate size (225, but different maker) gyuto through Jon at JKI. They wanted to make a minimum of three pieces in that size. Fortunately, Jon is ordering the two others on speculation. Just thought I'd mention my recent experience since that supports the idea that it might be easier to get an unusual size if the order includes multiple knives.


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## HRC_64 (May 8, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> A couple weeks ago, I ordered an intermediate size (225, but different maker) gyuto through Jon at JKI. They wanted to make a minimum of three pieces in that size. Fortunately, Jon is ordering the two others on speculation. Just thought I'd mention my recent experience since that supports the idea that it might be easier to get an unusual size if the order includes multiple knives.



Good info and good of JKI to support a customer and the market in this way. 
Just out of curiosity, are those nominal or actual 225mm?


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## Barmoley (May 8, 2018)

What did you order through JKI, just curious.


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## ashy2classy (May 8, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> A couple weeks ago, I ordered an intermediate size (225, but different maker) gyuto through Jon at JKI. They wanted to make a minimum of three pieces in that size. Fortunately, Jon is ordering the two others on speculation. Just thought I'd mention my recent experience since that supports the idea that it might be easier to get an unusual size if the order includes multiple knives.



OT: I checked with Jon about these last Friday because I was interested in the status of the other two and he said they're still available. I don't have the funds to buy so I'm waiting to see if they're still available next month. He said he expects them to take at least 6 months to be delivered.


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## Chicagohawkie (May 8, 2018)

Is there a visual proof or drawing of these knives? The mizuno ks clone was nothing like a ks, so Id be a little apprehensive to commit to something without seeing something first.


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## bkultra (May 8, 2018)

At this point it's just a thought. Like many I don't care for "240s" that run short (typically 230mm)... In fact I prefer 250-255mm and at this price point I was not willing to settle.


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## toddnmd (May 8, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Good info and good of JKI to support a customer and the market in this way.
> Just out of curiosity, are those nominal or actual 225mm?



Actual 225mm blade length (heel to tip). 
Kochi V2 Kurouchi.

I didn't mean to take this thread off track, if anyone else has questions, feel free to PM me (or contact Jon).


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