# Nagura Stones?



## ABranson (Feb 20, 2017)

I have a Kramer dual stone 250/1000. Did not come with a nagura stone. What nagura stone do I need? I'm assuming I need one with the same grit?


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## rick_english (Feb 20, 2017)

IMO nagura stones are overrated. The easiest way to get same-grit slurry on a sharpening stone is with a diamond hone.


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## ABranson (Feb 20, 2017)

I'm thinking for more keeping them flat, not really for slurry, just maintenance


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## Pensacola Tiger (Feb 20, 2017)

ABranson said:


> I'm thinking for more keeping them flat, not really for slurry, just maintenance



I've found naguras to be too small to be of any use for flattening. I use the couple I have to build slurry or to clean a loaded surface. You really need a plate or stone that is larger than the stone you are flattening.


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## nutmeg (Feb 20, 2017)

nagura are if you want to stay in 100% natural for very fine sharpenings but they don't have the shaping power and stability to make stones flat.


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## ABranson (Feb 20, 2017)

Could anyone recommend some plated or anything j could buy to flatten my stone? Links appreciated.


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## valgard (Feb 20, 2017)

Atoma Diamond plate
http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/153


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## Nemo (Feb 20, 2017)

I use an Atoma plate: http://www.knivesandstones.com/atoma-diamond-stone-flattening-plate-coarse-140-grit/. Other vendors also sell diamond plates. I do quite like the handle on mine.

For a slower, cheaper option, just about every vendor sells a ceramic stone flattener (which will itself need flattening eventually).

For an even cheaper option, buy some drywall screen and a flat piece of glass drom the hardware store.

Having said all that, the more expensive options are a LOT less fuss/ mucking around.


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## JayGee (Feb 20, 2017)

Note that you don't want to use too coarse a diamond plate on finer stones. I.e 140 is good for 300 - 1000 grit stones, 400 for up to ~5000 and then 1200 diamond plate for fine finishers.


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## valgard (Feb 20, 2017)

You can always flatten with the low grit atoms and smooth out with other higher grit stones no?


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## Mute-on (Feb 20, 2017)

I use an Atoma 140 on everything up to Ohira Suita to flatten. However, all the naturals are then conditioned using a natural nagura (Tsushima or Tomo). This conditioning removes the deep cuts from the Atoma and restores the uniform surface of naturals. 
I also use synthetic stones to condition each other after flattening with the 140 Atoma. 
Works for me. 
J


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## Badgertooth (Feb 20, 2017)

Could also ask around for unused Chosera or similar synthetic nagura. No real application as a flattening solution but useful on stones that have a tendency to glaze. Nagura grit less of an issue as they are generally harder than the synthetic stone and it is the stone that gets abraded more than the nagura. Rinse and you have a clean, if not 100% flat, sharpening surface. In theory you could prolong the time between SIC or diamond plate lappings with an acceptable level of flatness.

Apologies if I've misunderstood. If all you want is slurry and flatness - Diamond plate is the answer. But you'd lose a lot of stone to use diamond to deglaze


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## JayGee (Feb 20, 2017)

Mute-on's strategy sounds ideal.


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## Jovidah (Feb 20, 2017)

One piece of advice.... you might see the cheaper 'flattening stones' being sold in some places. They suck. They're slow, a pain in the ass to deal with, eventually need flattening themselves, and tend to glaze and clog up. Using a nagura seems like a difficult way to truly get it flat as well. 
I'm not overly enthusiastic about using them to 'speed up the sharpening by working up the mud' either. For example the Naniwa nagura stones are about 600 grit. The reason they speed up the process is that the nagura is effectively abrading on the stone, causing you to simply sharpen at a mix of both the stone and the 600 grit from the nagura. That's not a general statement though. If you have a fine grit nagura it can work well, as it does with the nagura that came with my Arashiyama stone.


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## ABranson (Apr 4, 2017)

do you need a specific grit plate to work on specific stones, or do flattening plates work on all stones? Like is there different plates to flatten different stones or is it one size fits all. and what about the 20$ norton flattening stone? worth it?


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## foody518 (Apr 4, 2017)

Ideally you want a flattener with same or larger dimensions as the stones to be flattened. The rest of it depends on whether you have a desire or need to smooth the surface of the stone more.
If you want to keep some of that slurry from the flattening, go with something like a diamond plate so you don't have grit from a flattening stone mixed in


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## ABranson (Apr 4, 2017)

So does the same go for nagura stones? If I want to keep the grit the same, then I need to get a same grit nagura?


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## foody518 (Apr 4, 2017)

For synthetics?
They're (non-diamond nagura) more commonly or more effectively used to just unload the stones if the sharpening surface has glazed over/loaded up, for example
Finer grit synth nagura start costing some money


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## ABranson (Apr 4, 2017)

foody518 said:


> For synthetics?
> They're (non-diamond nagura) more commonly or more effectively used to just unload the stones if the sharpening surface has glazed over/loaded up, for example
> Finer grit synth nagura start costing some money



could you post a few links so i can see some examples. Would be super helpful!


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## foody518 (Apr 4, 2017)

ABranson said:


> could you post a few links so i can see some examples. Would be super helpful!



For nagura listings or photos of glazed/loaded stones?
Fwiw I still think getting a synth nagura isn't what you should be looking for (and spending money on relative to other lapping/flattening options). Especially if you end up getting a diamond plate. My synth nagura gets next to no use


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## ABranson (Apr 4, 2017)

foody518 said:


> For nagura listings or photos of glazed/loaded stones?
> Fwiw I still think getting a synth nagura isn't what you should be looking for (and spending money on relative to other lapping/flattening options). Especially if you end up getting a diamond plate. My synth nagura gets next to no use



I'm probably just going to get a diamond plate. I guess I'm just talking about in regards to using nagura for cleaning or building slurries.


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## brianh (Apr 4, 2017)

How often did jnats need to be flattened? Rarely?


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## foody518 (Apr 4, 2017)

brianh said:


> How often did jnats need to be flattened? Rarely?



Too many jnats to make a general statement. My muddier medium/medium-fine/pre-finisher stones I've flattened already because I was constantly using a good deal of pressure to work up mud while practicing making kasumi finishes, could feel that the sides/edges were getting to be more raised than the center. Others, I feel like all my sharpening thus far has made no headway into them. Caveat - all of mine thus far have come with a reasonably flat top sharpening surface and I generally didn't bother to go do some extra lapping work past what I received

@ABranson if you haven't yet gotten a flattening device and have budget for a diamond plate, I say go for it. If you're just looking for a small sized thing for generating slurry without stray grit from another piece of something, there's little DMT and Diaface diamond ski sharpeners like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0044QF7N6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## ABranson (Apr 4, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Too many jnats to make a general statement. My muddier medium/medium-fine/pre-finisher stones I've flattened already because I was constantly using a good deal of pressure to work up mud while practicing making kasumi finishes, could feel that the sides/edges were getting to be more raised than the center. Others, I feel like all my sharpening thus far has made no headway into them
> 
> @ABranson if you haven't yet gotten a flattening device and have budget for a diamond plate, I say go for it. If you're just looking for a small sized thing for generating slurry without stray grit from another piece of something, there's little DMT and Diaface diamond ski sharpeners like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0044QF7N6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Thanks! So the only reason to use those rather than a nagura stone is essentially not mixing grits? but it does the same thing?


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## foody518 (Apr 4, 2017)

ABranson said:


> Thanks! So the only reason to use those rather than a nagura stone is essentially not mixing grits? but it does the same thing?



Depends on the intended use. If your goal is to use it to dress or lap the surface of the stone, or to un-load a portion of the stone, then yes


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## Benuser (Apr 4, 2017)

With the Chosera / Naniwa Pro they work not only for cleaning, but for making wetting more effective without soaking.


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Depends on the intended use. If your goal is to use it to dress or lap the surface of the stone, or to un-load a portion of the stone, then yes



Then I guess my question is, would there be a benefit to having the diamond ski sharpeners and a nagura stone? I know most stones come with them, but it seems like diamond plates (not the little sharpeners) kind of do everything one needs?


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 5, 2017)

OK One thing needs to be mentioned about JKI Diamond stones. They're really not beginner stones and anyone using them on very thin edges should be cautious. These stones cut so fast, they'll chew up a light knife, say Dalman quick. You'll be dropping millimeters faster than "The Biggest Loser"

For someone just getting into sharpening I think the most sensible set is 1200 Bester and 5K Suehiro Rika. Their soakers as discussed, not as easy to deploy as S&G, but the benefits to a new sharpener are:

1.) They can sharpen any steel. Leave a wonderful kitchen edge.
2.) The feedback and feeling are just what a beginner needs
3.) Their fairly slow cutting stones, so you won't go overboard removing metal
4.) The progression of 1200 and 5000 are well matched
5.) Their cheap and available

PS: If anyone wants this pair I'll sell it for $50 plus shipping. Their in excellent shape too.


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> OK One thing needs to be mentioned about JKI Diamond stones. They're really not beginner stones and anyone using them on very thin edges should be cautious. These stones cut so fast, they'll chew up a light knife, say Dalman quick. You'll be dropping millimeters faster than "The Biggest Loser"
> 
> For someone just getting into sharpening I think the most sensible set is 1200 Bester and 5K Suehiro Rika. Their soakers as discussed, not as easy to deploy as S&G, but the benefits to a new sharpener are:
> 
> ...



I'm not planning on sharpening on the diamond plates, just using them in regards to care for other stones. That being said, can you provide some specifics on the stones you are offering? pm me if thats better. 

And would you still recommend this combo on stainless steel? And if so, what other stones would you recommend for stainless. I've been doing a lot of research and would love some more guidance.


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## foody518 (Apr 5, 2017)

ABranson said:


> Then I guess my question is, would there be a benefit to having the diamond ski sharpeners and a nagura stone? I know most stones come with them, but it seems like diamond plates (not the little sharpeners) kind of do everything one needs?



For the purposes of lapping the stone surface post flattening or also for unglazing/un-loading a section of the sharpening surface, you don't need a full dimension plate, and this is where you could have a finer lil diamond thing to do that job. Especially if you are concerned about having 140grit diamond plate scratches on your finer stones (a preference thing), saves you from buying like an Atoma 140 and then an Atoma 1200

The Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika 5000 are quite tried and true stones and work fine on stainless. Mucho describes them well. My Bester 1200 used to get used on loads of decent as well as cheap stainless, before I got more carbon steel knives (and more stones) and I decided on another stone to finish other people's cheap stainless on. 
And the Rika has lovely creamy feel when sharpening...


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## ABranson (Apr 8, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> OK One thing needs to be mentioned about JKI Diamond stones. They're really not beginner stones and anyone using them on very thin edges should be cautious. These stones cut so fast, they'll chew up a light knife, say Dalman quick. You'll be dropping millimeters faster than "The Biggest Loser"
> 
> For someone just getting into sharpening I think the most sensible set is 1200 Bester and 5K Suehiro Rika. Their soakers as discussed, not as easy to deploy as S&G, but the benefits to a new sharpener are:
> 
> ...



Mucho, can you pm me. I'd love to buy those stones!


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