# sharpening routine help needed



## Geo87 (Sep 29, 2013)

Hey all, 

As the title dictates I need a bit of help with my sharpening routine, mainly just a bit of feedback . Also if anyone uses the same or similar knife id love to hear from you.

The knife in question : ikanshi tadasuna wa gyuto (Swedish stainless) 

At the moment I take it to 5k ( naniwa ss) 
It's 10 deg right side , 15 deg left side. 5 deg secondary bevel.

My stones are naniwa ss: 400, 1k , 3k , 5k

I have at my disposal 3 strops , boron carbide on balsa, cronium oxide on split leather (crayon variety) & a bare leather strop. 
However I am still learning to use the strops so they are not part of the routine... Yet. 

I use this knife in a professional environent for on average 4 hours a day . 
I try to avoid board contact... But sometimes it's unavoidable i.e slicing 20kg of onions.
I use it only for tasks a lazer should be used for.. It goes no where near bones... Mainly veg prep.


My questions: 

1: which strops should I use for maintainence and how frequently?

2: roughly how often should i sharpen on stones and which stones?

3: how long should the edge last before it needs maintainence?

Some notes: I understand that knife sharpening is not a mathematical process and that I should touch up the edge when it needs it.. And sharpen on 1k only when polishing isn't working anymore. I also understand that how long the edge lasts depends on how you use it.
I am just looking for a rough guide as to what to expect so I can compare how long my edge lasts. 
Also currently I polish the edge on 5k every morning with a few strokes each side... And roughly go to the 1k once every 3 weeks. The edge is very sharp straight after a 1k -5k but this level of sharpness doesn't last long... And the daily maintainence brings it back okay.... But not as good as I feel it could be. 

I would like this knife to be as sharp as practically possible... Constantly . In fact I almost feel sad when its not  it deserves a constant terrifying edge. 


Geo.


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## EdipisReks (Sep 30, 2013)

1: Whatever gives you the best edge.

2: However often they need, and whatever gives you your best edge.

3: It depends on what you are cutting, and how often, and how much, and with how much force.

This isn't physics, it's a subjective thing.


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## Chuckles (Sep 30, 2013)

A constant terrifying edge. Best way to get that is to have more than one knife. Like the pony express, you gotta switch rides when they can't keep up.

With your set up I would guess you may be over refining the edge. Try half as much time on the 5k as you do on the 1k. Or try some fun combos just to see what happens. Go 1k > 3k > strop on 400 > strop on 5k. 

Too much time on the high grits and strops can be very counter productive for an all arounder.


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## panda (Sep 30, 2013)

stop at 3k, strop on bare leather. try how that goes.


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## BeerChef (Sep 30, 2013)

I wish i could find a kitchen that I only need to work 4 hours a day. Sounds awesome.


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## Geo87 (Sep 30, 2013)

Beerchef, you misunderstood me. I was saying I use this specific knive for an average of 4 hours a day. I said nothing about the other 6-10 hours or the other 7 knives. As a chef you would know prep is only part of the gig... And working four hours would be boring... And I'd be broke. 

Chuckles: I like the idea of going back in grits to strop.. Something ill definitly play around with . 

Perhaps I'm asking the wrong questions and not being specific enough. For this knive im after a fairly polished edge... 5k feels right so far for what I use it for. 
I was mainly wondering if anyone else has a similar knife they use and how often they sharpen / hone. I understand there are a lot of variables... But I just want a rough figure to compare my routine to to see if infanct there are flaws in my sharpening skills if someone else's knife which is similar lasts longer under similar circumstances .

Also I was wondering about maintainence . 
What is the best way to maintain this knife with the gear I listed... I'm talking daily maintenance 

Geo


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## Benuser (Sep 30, 2013)

No suggestion about daily maintenance, other than to avoid overpolishing. After 3k stropping and 5k deburring along the edge you should be fine.
But after three weeks of touching up, I'm not sure whether a 1k is coarse enough to abrade the fatigued steel.
By the way, nice to see you here!


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## Dusty (Sep 30, 2013)

Superstones are a funny bunch. The 5k is pretty sweet, i find the 3k quite hard, and the 400 is one of the better feeling coarse stones I've tried.

I really like the 1k. Its not fast, but I don't know any other 1k stone that genuinely polishes. If you're looking to extend the life of your edges, try stopping at 1k, and then just strop on the boron carbide - assuming its one micron stuff. 

I use this combo (although i strop on diamond and balsa - not that big a difference) on very thin gyutos and find the edge fantastic, but most importantly it lasts a long time. I then just touch up on the one micron strop and when that doesn't bring an edge back, go back to 1k.

Stropping on the plain leather could help you deburr between stones as you sharpen.

Unless you are an absolute gun sharpener, you could be doing yourself a disservice using every stone in your lineup. This is for a couple of reasons: firstly, the more stones you use, the more you sharpen the more chance you have to wobble away your edge/ Secondly, if you polish out *all* of the teeth that the previous stone left behind, when your edge fails it will fail hard, if there is a little bit of refined texture to your edge, you can maintain a useful biteyness for quite a while. Thirdly, the jump from the 1k SS to the 5k superstone is not too big. As I said earlier, I often just jump to a strop, or sometimes the 8k SS from the 1k.


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## Keith Neal (Sep 30, 2013)

This is what Devin Thomas told me about my gyuto:

"It is a powder metal grade. It has a good amount of hard carbides that are fairly small. The steel has exellent hardenability and good toughness. This steel should not be over sharpened (too fine a grit) and not taken to too acute of an angle. I really like this steel.

_The core is semi-stainless and the cladding is stainless. 63hrc.

Hoss"

That may not be much help, but I thought his comment about sharpening was interesting and perhaps relevant.
_


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 30, 2013)

I too use the SS in 1,3 and 5k. The comments pertaining to over polishing are spot on. This series of stone leave a very fine edge. I really enjoy the edge on some carbons, but some stainlesses become overly slick. Lucky for me 90% of my kit is carbon.


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## tripleq (Sep 30, 2013)

I have a couple of these knives. Just sold one on the BST in fact. Personally I prefer my stainless knives to have more bite so I only usually go up to 2K. I've always gotten much better results on balsa or felt for stropping vs leather. I also prefer the edge of 1 micron diamond spray vs. cro. or bor. oxide. I don't tend to do a lot of maintenance between sharpenings but for the tad specifically I found the best approach was to touch it up with whatever strop or stone completed the last sharpening. 

As for how long your edge should last that's a real tricky question and there are just too many viariables for anyone to give you any kind of answer. In general terms if you aren't happy with your edge on the tad INOX consider that the knife is very thin. If your sharpening angle is too acute you may not be leaving yourself a lot of metal to work with. You could try raising your angle of approach slightly or give micro bevelling a try. Another reason I stop at 2K on the INOX is because I find the edge easy to round off if careful attention isn't paid to your angles on the higher grit stones. Same goes for leather strops. Lastly, pay careful attention to cleaning up the edge at the end of sharpening. I find the tad INOX takes a little more effort in this regard than a lot of other stainless knives. If you find your sharpness falling off fast it may be because you're starting off cutting on a wire edge. Hope that helps.


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## Squilliam (Sep 30, 2013)

This is a little odd, but it's the way I would go if I were you. From dull.

* 400 @ 3-8 degrees
* 1k @ 3-8/13 degrees
* 3k @ 3-10/15 degrees
* Chromium oxide on leather @ 10/15 degrees, really make sure the edge is slippy-slidey and completely polished. The idea here is to be 100% burr free. It should be very sharp (aim for a borderline HHT passing edge. It may take a long time to reach that level, I know it took me a while).
* 5k microbevel @ 15/20 degrees, 2-6 light passes per side
* Bare leather strop @ 14/19 degrees, keep making firm passes until the edge no longer changes in feel. IMHO this means the burr from the 5k is gone (yes there will be a burr, 1 light pass on a SS10k makes a microscopic burr which I have seen), and you are left with a clean 5k edge.

For touch ups, bare leather until this is no longer as effective as you would like it to be. You can refresh the edge with 1-2 light passes on the 5k followed by the bare strop for a clean edge, you should be able to refresh the microbevel half a dozen times before perhaps starting from the 1k again to thin and maintain geometry.

As you will be working with a burr free knife, edge retention will be as high as it can be, for the angle you choose. If you are finding the 5k to not be aggressive enough, perhaps use the 3k as a finisher, or use a ~5k with more cutting power.

If you are getting chips or microchips, then the make more passes (up to ~10 per side) on the initial 5k microbevel to add some strength behind the edge. Aim for the edge which is right on the borderline of failing during your usage to get the highest geometry based performance.

How long should it last? That's up to you... It lasts as long as your happy with it. As a home user I use a strop or stone after about every half hour, because I can. If I were you, I would probably microbevel at the start or end of every day and thin on 1k every weekend, 400 every other weekend. Do whatever you want. I'm sure there are pros here who don't even sharpen weekly. The top 10% of sharpness drops very quickly, the next 20% will hang around for ages.

Good luck!


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## Geo87 (Sep 30, 2013)

Thank you all for your in depth replys. Much appreciated.

It seems there's a general consensus I'm over polishing the edge... Good to know. 

Could someone please elaborate as to why you don't polish stainless too high but carbon is ok? 

Dusty: it's good to hear from someone else using super stones, I am definitly not a gun sharpener. Neither do i use every stone in a progression . 

Squillium: thanks for the thorough advice. 
May I ask whats the reason for progressing from acute angles on the coarse stones To larger angles on finer stones? im guessing durabiliity? 
And do I take the 400 stone all the way to a bur? ( as with my current angles this would remove a lot of metal) 
also forgive my ignorance but what do you mean by 3-8 degrees? 
Do you mean between 3 and 8 or work my way from 3 up to 8? 

Benuser: it's good to be here


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 1, 2013)

Geo if your knives are trained by your sharpening tech. you do not need a coarse stone to remove alot of metal.Think of a Medium stone 1K-2K leaves a toothy edge that works well.You can get that steel quite sharp on a Med. stone.As you & others mentioned need more knives in a pro kit. for diff. jobs.I usually had at least two Gyuto's,sometimes three 2- 240mm 1- 270mm.Like No Chop all carbon.I would rotate my 240's & sharpen all my knives at least once a week.

There is very good stainless out there now that have the easy sharpening qualities & other benefits that make them excellent chef knives.


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## Squilliam (Oct 1, 2013)

Yes sorry reading over my comment I see it wasn't clear at all haha

What I meant was to hold the knife (for the right side) at 3 degrees, and make a hamaguri (convex) geometry by raising the spine to 8 degrees as you sharpen. This thins out some steel above the edge, and it shouldn't scratch up the blade face. On the left side raise the edge to 13 degrees because you chose your left angle to be higher.

The point of stopping 2 degrees below your intended angle on the coarser stones is because the free grit (slurry) on the stone can have a significant impact on your edge below 1k, and it also gives you some wobble room because there will be so little steel right at the edge. It's important to protect the thin steel there. With hand wobble, you will almost definitely hit a couple of degrees above what you intend on the odd pass, and when you move up to the 3k you don't want to have to cut in a new 10 degree bevel because you wobbled to 12 degrees on the previous stone. It's always easy to raise the angle, but hard to lower it.

Unless you have specific damage, you should not be trying to form a burr on the 400. You will make one accidentally though, through wobble and slurry interacting with the edge. That's fine, that should only affect the fatigued area of steel (a very small area). Same with the 1k. Form the burr on 3k. I know that sounds high, but you already did all the ground work on the coarse stones.

I drew a terrible picture, it's completely out of scale but it shows the different areas. Forget the pink line. It means nothing. The wedge on the left is a heel view of a knife showing the area that my drawing is looking at. It's only the very bottom. About the size of the exposed core steel on a clad knife. The blue line is what you work on with the coarse stones, bringing that area almost to an apex, then forming the apex with the 3k. The red line is the microbevel, created entirely by the 5k. The yellow line is what I think your edge looks like now.

http://i.imgur.com/o7wfH5f.png

You can get away with using higher angles in microbevels because they are so small that they have a negligible negative effect on geometry, while adding a lot of resistance to deformation and chipping. Also at the angles I recommended you wont be loosing any sharpness either.


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## Benuser (Oct 1, 2013)

I don't think it's a great idea to form the final edge only with a 3k, amid the 400 and 1k debris, as no burr has been raised yet to get rid of it.


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## Squilliam (Oct 2, 2013)

If you're talking about my method, the 1k erases all the 400 scratches and a slight burr is formed. It always happens that way, it's just how it goes. Purposefully forming a 3k edge on top of that is no issue.


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