Looking for midweight/workhorse knife western makers or ***

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Ricedeath

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Hey all,

I am a homecook, looking to extend my collection and get my third knife. Right now own a Shibata Kotetsu 180 and a Takada Suiboku b1 135 petty.
Something longer and overall tougher would be a nice addition. I think something along the lines of a workhorse or some midweight Knife. Would simply be nice to try, since I have never tried those so far.

Now for the Questionaire part:
  • LOCATION: Germany
  • KNIFE TYPE: Gyuto, k-tip Gyuto, Bunka maybe Nakiri
  • Right or left handed: Right
  • Blade lenght: 210 - 250, preferably 230 - 250 if that makes sense
  • Do you require a stainless knife: Not necessarily, whatever performs better
  • Budget: 300€ - 600€
  • Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? Pinch grip with index finger on choil instead of blade though
  • Cutting motion: Push-cut, chop and slice with tip
What I am looking for:
  • Toughness: enough to regularly handle watermelons
  • Weight: a little more heft would not hurt, using the Shibata on a huge batch of tough white cabbage felt like a little bit more knife weight would have been beneficial
  • Reactivity: should be able to handle acidic ingredients such as tomatos, pineapples, apples, onions without staining the food or aftertaste
  • Blade geometry: enough height, to guide with the other hand; profile probably a little flatter like the Shibata, probably want a Gyuto though for the aesthetic without k tip
  • Finish: polished + rounded choil and spine would be nice, simply nice to look at and feels better, some type of surface finish, that hides the machine sanding marks, while not (overly) negatively impacting food release
  • Food release: should release decent enough, so I do not have to clear up the knife every 5-6 cuts (traumatized from attempted mirror polishing on the shibata, anything sticks like glue and spills everywhere over the spine)
  • Handle: Japanese style, preferably octagonal, open to try out others though
  • Edge retention: Means having to pull out the stones less often, always appreciated but not the most important metric to me I guess
KNIFE MAINTENANCE
  • Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Hasegawa synthetic
  • Do you sharpen your own knives? Yes (Shapton pro 1k, 2k, 5k + yellow naniwa 8k)
  • Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? No
KNIFE USE
Main tasks will be chopping and mincing vegtables and cutting fruit. Shredding cabbages, mincing garlic, cutting melon into slices. Sometimes when I come home tired from work, I just wanna breeze through the chopping part, so ease of use while processing larger amounts of vegtables is appreciated. The knife will be cared for and dried after use. When not used for a longer time, I apply camelia oil.


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I mean, just to cut up some watermelons any of the tougher steel german knives would do and it would not be very expensive. But where is the fun in that? Lurking around on the forums lately, has me wanting to try out a knife of some western makers and a few others. Since I had been very happy with the Shibata Kotetsu suggestion over the Takamura R2 I had initially planned to buy in my last thread, I wanna consult with you all again, if you have some great ideas. Was really happy with the extra touch ups on the finish of the Shibata over the Takamura. So yes, looking for this knife over some generic Wusthof knife is also of aesthetic reason to me. But, here is the but, will the suggested knives be more suited or feel less delicate when handling watermlons than the Shibata? Sure the Shibata gets the job done and yes if you pay attentions and dont wedge it all works great, have not had the bad luck to chip it yet. But guess it takes just being unattentive once, given how delicate it feels.

What I have been considering, list is 40% ordered 60% uncertainty:
  1. Birgersson Gyuto (if available at some point)
  2. Spåre Custom (though I did not understand whether books open atm with the april project pre order)
  3. Birch and Bevel Carbon
  4. Yoshikane SKD
  5. Nigara Hamono Tsuchime SG2 (maybe boring, since I already have one SG2)
  6. Dalman (Looks great and seems functional)
  7. Hopwood goods
  8. Simon Herde
  9. Myojin Riki Seisakusho SG2
  10. Sukenari HAP40 (though no idea on availability in europe)
I mean, it does not have to be immediatly, just so I know better what to look out for. For the above makers I have entered their mailing lists and started following on insta, in case anything drops. Maybe you also have other good suggestions from japanese makers or how the mentioned might perform for my requirements. Like Carbon being tougher and my high hardness SG2 or HAP40 suggestions being a bad idea for the tougher opponents?

Anyway, thanks for your patience reading and looking forward to your advice all. :)
 
Some japanese options to consider:

Wakui Stainless Clad - Really good all around knife and budget friendly. They typically feature eased spine and choils, grinds tend to be on the light/midweight side. Nashiji and tsuchime versions tend to be thicker than the migaki versions. The profiles to me are absolutely perfect. I think I've owned at least like 10 different versions from this maker

Toyama/Watanabe Stainless Clad B2 - Another excellent all rounder. Taller than the wakuis and more convexity. One of the best stock grinds you will find from a Japanese maker. Stock spine and choil can be a bit square.

Kaeru SS (from JNS) - Amazing bang for buck. Will come in well below your target price range. The grinds aren't the prettiest, and the spine/choil could use some work, but you get a superb stainless knife with sanjo-style taper and generous grind thickness for very little money. The newer ones look to be taller than previous iterations.

Nakagawa Ginsan - Nakagawa forges a lot of blades, and works with many different sharpeners. The wide bevel ones are thicker than say the myojin ground ones, but offer great food release and feel super durable.

Myojin SG2 - I see you already have this one on your list. I personally have a set of these as my personal stainless option. Just about as low maintenance as you can get. In general, Myojin grinds are on the thinner side, especially compared to everything else on this list. I would not consider them to excel at food release, though the cutting performance is excellent.
 
Ricedeath said:
Hey all,

I am a homecook, looking to extend my collection and get my third knife. Right now own a Shibata Kotetsu 180 and a Takada Suiboku b1 135 petty.
Something longer and overall tougher would be a nice addition. I think something along the lines of a workhorse or some midweight Knife. Would simply be nice to try, since I have never tried those so far.

Now for the Questionaire part:
  • LOCATION: Germany
  • KNIFE TYPE: Gyuto, k-tip Gyuto, Bunka maybe Nakiri
  • Right or left handed: Right
  • Blade lenght: 210 - 250, preferably 230 - 250 if that makes sense
  • Do you require a stainless knife: Not necessarily, whatever performs better
  • Budget: 300€ - 600€
  • Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? Pinch grip with index finger on choil instead of blade though
  • Cutting motion: Push-cut, chop and slice with tip
What I am looking for:
  • Toughness: enough to regularly handle watermelons
  • Weight: a little more heft would not hurt, using the Shibata on a huge batch of tough white cabbage felt like a little bit more knife weight would have been beneficial
  • Reactivity: should be able to handle acidic ingredients such as tomatos, pineapples, apples, onions without staining the food or aftertaste
  • Blade geometry: enough height, to guide with the other hand; profile probably a little flatter like the Shibata, probably want a Gyuto though for the aesthetic without k tip
  • Finish: polished + rounded choil and spine would be nice, simply nice to look at and feels better, some type of surface finish, that hides the machine sanding marks, while not (overly) negatively impacting food release
  • Food release: should release decent enough, so I do not have to clear up the knife every 5-6 cuts (traumatized from attempted mirror polishing on the shibata, anything sticks like glue and spills everywhere over the spine)
  • Handle: Japanese style, preferably octagonal, open to try out others though
  • Edge retention: Means having to pull out the stones less often, always appreciated but not the most important metric to me I guess
KNIFE MAINTENANCE
  • Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Hasegawa synthetic
  • Do you sharpen your own knives? Yes (Shapton pro 1k, 2k, 5k + yellow naniwa 8k)
  • Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? No
KNIFE USE
Main tasks will be chopping and mincing vegtables and cutting fruit. Shredding cabbages, mincing garlic, cutting melon into slices. Sometimes when I come home tired from work, I just wanna breeze through the chopping part, so ease of use while processing larger amounts of vegtables is appreciated. The knife will be cared for and dried after use. When not used for a longer time, I apply camelia oil.


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I mean, just to cut up some watermelons any of the tougher steel german knives would do and it would not be very expensive. But where is the fun in that? Lurking around on the forums lately, has me wanting to try out a knife of some western makers and a few others. Since I had been very happy with the Shibata Kotetsu suggestion over the Takamura R2 I had initially planned to buy in my last thread, I wanna consult with you all again, if you have some great ideas. Was really happy with the extra touch ups on the finish of the Shibata over the Takamura. So yes, looking for this knife over some generic Wusthof knife is also of aesthetic reason to me. But, here is the but, will the suggested knives be more suited or feel less delicate when handling watermlons than the Shibata? Sure the Shibata gets the job done and yes if you pay attentions and dont wedge it all works great, have not had the bad luck to chip it yet. But guess it takes just being unattentive once, given how delicate it feels.

What I have been considering, list is 40% ordered 60% uncertainty:
  1. Birgersson Gyuto (if available at some point)
  2. Spåre Custom (though I did not understand whether books open atm with the april project pre order)
  3. Birch and Bevel Carbon
  4. Yoshikane SKD
  5. Nigara Hamono Tsuchime SG2 (maybe boring, since I already have one SG2)
  6. Dalman (Looks great and seems functional)
  7. Hopwood goods
  8. Simon Herde
  9. Myojin Riki Seisakusho SG2
  10. Sukenari HAP40 (though no idea on availability in europe)
I mean, it does not have to be immediatly, just so I know better what to look out for. For the above makers I have entered their mailing lists and started following on insta, in case anything drops. Maybe you also have other good suggestions from japanese makers or how the mentioned might perform for my requirements. Like Carbon being tougher and my high hardness SG2 or HAP40 suggestions being a bad idea for the tougher opponents?

Anyway, thanks for your patience reading and looking forward to your advice all. :)
Click to expand...
Itsuo Doi blue 2 gyuto … midweight and a great heat treat. Disclaimer: I’m a huge Doi boi
 
aporigine said:
Itsuo Doi blue 2 gyuto … midweight and a great heat treat. Disclaimer: I’m a huge Doi boi
Click to expand...
I like the Kasumi finish on that one and overall the heat treament part sounds good in the description with it being a little. Not so sure whether I like that machi gap tho. Any infos on food release?

tostadas said:
Some japanese options to consider:

Wakui Stainless Clad - Really good all around knife and budget friendly. They typically feature eased spine and choils, grinds tend to be on the light/midweight side. Nashiji and tsuchime versions tend to be thicker than the migaki versions. The profiles to me are absolutely perfect. I think I've owned at least like 10 different versions from this maker

Toyama/Watanabe Stainless Clad B2 - Another excellent all rounder. Taller than the wakuis and more convexity. One of the best stock grinds you will find from a Japanese maker. Stock spine and choil can be a bit square.

Kaeru SS (from JNS) - Amazing bang for buck. Will come in well below your target price range. The grinds aren't the prettiest, and the spine/choil could use some work, but you get a superb stainless knife with sanjo-style taper and generous grind thickness for very little money. The newer ones look to be taller than previous iterations.

Nakagawa Ginsan - Nakagawa forges a lot of blades, and works with many different sharpeners. The wide bevel ones are thicker than say the myojin ground ones, but offer great food release and feel super durable.

Myojin SG2 - I see you already have this one on your list. I personally have a set of these as my personal stainless option. Just about as low maintenance as you can get. In general, Myojin grinds are on the thinner side, especially compared to everything else on this list. I would not consider them to excel at food release, though the cutting performance is excellent.
Click to expand...
Wow, so many suggestions. Thanks for all the input and also giving some options in the lower price end. The Kaeru at that price point definitely sounds interesting. About food release, I mean as long as you dont have to free the blade every few cuts or the produce goes spilling all over, it should be okay. I have to always manually free up the blade after a few cuts, otherwise it just spills off the board with my rather small 26cm depth cutting board.

Matt Jacobs said:
since your in Germany I would reach out to Peter at @moderncooking for suggestions and maybe stop by if you can. Personally I highly recommend the Birch and Bevel Carbon, I think it would be perfect for what you are looking for.
Click to expand...
Seemed like quite the unique offering to me with good availability. Though as mentioned before I am also considering to get a custom from spare himself. Also interested in some of the other steels he offers and maybe a custom wood handle. Got some nice exotic wood suppliers here in germany.
Other than that the Apex special edition was real good value imo, sad I missed it. 26C3 also sounds quite intriguing. Judging purely from the knifesteels themselves, sounds like these two could also be a good choice toughness wise? Maybe there will be another drop at some point, otherwise quite at the end spectrum of my budget, if I were to go custom. I must admit, that SG2 Steel really spoiled me on edge retention I suppose. I do like the aesthetics, if it performs comparably to the others suggested, probably one of my favourite picks atm.
 
Ricedeath said:
I like the Kasumi finish on that one and overall the heat treament part sounds good in the description with it being a little. Not so sure whether I like that machi gap tho. Any infos on food release?


Wow, so many suggestions. Thanks for all the input and also giving some options in the lower price end. The Kaeru at that price point definitely sounds interesting. About food release, I mean as long as you dont have to free the blade every few cuts or the produce goes spilling all over, it should be okay. I have to always manually free up the blade after a few cuts, otherwise it just spills off the board with my rather small 26cm depth cutting board.


Seemed like quite the unique offering to me with good availability. Though as mentioned before I am also considering to get a custom from spare himself. Also interested in some of the other steels he offers and maybe a custom wood handle. Got some nice exotic wood suppliers here in germany.
Other than that the Apex special edition was real good value imo, sad I missed it. 26C3 also sounds quite intriguing. Judging purely from the knifesteels themselves, sounds like these two could also be a good choice toughness wise? Maybe there will be another drop at some point, otherwise quite at the end spectrum of my budget, if I were to go custom. I must admit, that SG2 Steel really spoiled me on edge retention I suppose. I do like the aesthetics, if it performs comparably to the others suggested, probably one of my favourite picks atm.
Click to expand...
Cannot really comment. I am a home user who does it very slowly. I’d very roughly say it’s what one would expect from a symmetrical convex grind.
 
For some more Western options, I would add Simon Maillet and Joel Black to your list.

Simon's work errs more towards midweight but with a robust feel thanks to the low bevel grind, and Joel tends to sit more on the workhorse end, although he does put out thinner midweight stuff too.

You probably wouldn't go wrong with most options from Migoto, which from my experience have all had excellent grinds across the various knives that have passed through my hands.
 
Anyone have experience with Christoph Wild so far?
Really dig the look of the Nakiri/Gemüsemesser on his website for 530€. Considering, to get that one. (Did not want to post screenshot without consent).

I mean I did consider going for a Nakiri type, just purely for the veg chopping part. What about the choice of steel here? 1.2235 / 80CrV2 @ 60 HRC.
If I am not mistaken, a good match, which with the right edge geometry should make for a tougher Knife.


Meanwhile I have also been privately offered a HSV apex Ultra Gyuto, I have been contacted by a maker, where I can consider a custom order and not to mention all these great suggestions from above. Now it is getting really hard to decide. Aspects that help me narrow down the choices are aesthetics, f&f and geometry. While with my budget I am definitely paying extra, to get the aesthetics, that I want, I also do not want to overpay just purely for aesthetics (like you know pay some extra to honor the hard work put into it to achieve the looks). I'd have imagined it as choosing a good value knife, that ticks off all the requirements, then maybe give it another 200€-400€ to achieve the aesthetics that I want. Overall 400€ seems to be the limit, where I am not getting a guilty conscience.

As such the following options are rather prominent:
  • Get the Kaeru as cheapest option, to cushion the guilty conscience of spending that much on a knife as homecook
  • Get the B&B Carbon, which strikes a good balance of price, uniqueness and performance according to crowd wisdom
  • Get the christoph Wild, which has is one of my favourites aestheticwise, kinda fomoing for not getting "special" steel..
  • Get a HSC apex ultra I have been offered to satisfy my fomo but without the decadent flashy aesthetic that I am apparently looking for
  • Go double down and get a custom for about double the price, but get my fomo steel and flashy aesthetic

It seems, many japanese Knives have not been considered, simply because aesthetically I felt like getting a somewhat more unique experience from western makers. To be honest, for the custom route, while appealing I feel like it could be just too early into my journey. Where tastes and aesthetic preferences might change, so going for the most expensive option maybe for later, when I have tried out more knives and become more knowledgable about what I am truly looking for. The B&B seems like a good option, where I feel it gets topped by the Christoph wild on uniqueness. But that price range can buy so many "better" steels. The description of 1.2419 subjectively sounds better than 1.2235/80CrV2, for example with the added tungsten. And Spare is better known in this community, so I got more reviews that attest good performance. Then again I think I am fomoing too hard on steel choice, where for one I am not a line cook and second how well heat treatment was done matters more. But still, I just want to get my moneys worth apart from just the aesthetics. Though both steels should be the right tool for the right job. I think I am just exaggerating over not getting super alloys such as apex ultra, even though I do not even need it for my requirements. It would probably compare to driving a Maserati in a 50 kmph zone in a city, in my case.

TL:dr, can I go wrong with the Christoph Wild one? I would prefer it over the B&B. -> Unfortunately it has a slightly skewed spine, due to hardening with the onesided grind.. Unfortunately I think at that price point I would rather take another Knife then. Otherwise very beautiful Knife.
 
Last edited:
Ricedeath said:
Anyone have experience with Christoph Wild so far?
Click to expand...
Really great guy, super passionate and loves to experiment. I really like his handles and find them comfy. The one above the cleaver really surprised me. Super grateful for feedback and keeps trying to improve. Soldi grinds depending on knife. Sometimes aesthetics are a little bit over performance but never duds. I was actually close to buying the cleaver several times. Love the looks, found it nice in person. Edge is straight and spine is imo minimal but I get it.
Wouldn't worry about steel too much. 80crv2 is a solid enough steel, not worse than White steels. Also you don't see people crying about 135Cr3 steel which Yanick and Milan uses. They aren't too special steels either.
HSC3 makes solid knives.
Birch and Bevel can also be good.
Ricedeath said:
Go double down and get a custom
Click to expand...
If you are still considering a Kaeru I don't think you are far enough to buy an expensive custom. You haven't totally determined what you like and want apart from maybe aesthetics. There are some hobby knife makers on the cheaper side which could be an option though but quite some also upped their prices in the last year. You can hit me up if you want
 
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